Legislative Assemblée Assembly législative of Ontario de l’Ontario

Official Report Journal of Debates des débats (Hansard) (Hansard)

F-61 F-61

Standing Committee on Comité permanent Finance and Economic Affairs des finances et des affaires économiques

Protect, Support and Recover Loi de 2020 sur la protection, from COVID-19 Act le soutien et la relance (Budget Measures), 2020 face à la COVID-19 (mesures budgétaires)

1st Session 1re session 42nd Parliament 42e législature Wednesday 2 December 2020 Mercredi 2 décembre 2020

Chair: Amarjot Sandhu Président : Amarjot Sandhu Clerk: Julia Douglas Greffière : Julia Douglas

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 2 December 2020

Protect, Support and Recover from COVID-19 Act (Budget Measures), 2020, Bill 229, Mr. Phillips / Loi de 2020 sur la protection, le soutien et la relance face à la COVID- 19 (mesures budgétaires), projet de loi 229, M. Phillips...... F-3099 Ontario Nature; Ontario Public Service Employees Union; Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters ...... F-3099 Dr. Anne Bell Mr. Smokey Thomas Mr. Alex Greco Federation of Ontario Cottagers’ Associations; Nature London; Career Colleges Ontario ...... F-3108 Mr. Terry Rees Ms. Muriel Andreae Mr. Chris Conway Wilderness Committee; FilmOntario; Dr. Jennifer Drake ...... F-3117 Ms. Katie Krelove Ms. Cynthia Lynch Mr. Scott Garvie Ms. Sue Milling LIUNA Local 183 Training Centre; Mr. David Laing; North Gwillimbury Forest Alliance ...... F-3126 Mr. Sandro Pinto Mr. Jack Gibbons David Suzuki Foundation; City of Brampton; Ms. Darla Fiset ...... F-3134 Dr. Yannick Beaudoin Ms. Gurdeep Kaur Mr. Paul Aldunate Mr. Rick Conard Ms. Clare Burnett Mr. Gary Huggins; Ontario Coalition for Smoke-Free Movies; Ms. Peggy Hutchison .....F-3143 Mr. Gary Huggins Mr. Michael Perley Ms. Peggy Hutchison

F-3099

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

STANDING COMMITTEE ON COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES

Wednesday 2 December 2020 Mercredi 2 décembre 2020

The committee met at 0900 in committee room 1 and by you can please state your name for the record, and you will video conference. have seven minutes for your presentation. Dr. Anne Bell: Good morning, everyone. I’m going to share my screen now with my presentation. PROTECT, SUPPORT AND RECOVER Thank you so much for the opportunity to make this FROM COVID-19 ACT presentation this morning. My name is Anne Bell, and I’m (BUDGET MEASURES), 2020 the director of conservation and education at Ontario LOI DE 2020 SUR LA PROTECTION, Nature. I’m joining you today from my home in Toronto. LE SOUTIEN ET LA RELANCE I would like to acknowledge that this place is in the FACE À LA COVID-19 traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Haudenosaunee (MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES) and Wendat peoples, and it’s in the current territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit, under the Toronto Purchase Consideration of the following bill: Treaty 13 signed in 1805. Bill 229, An Act to implement Budget measures and to For those of you who aren’t familiar with Ontario enact, amend and repeal various statutes / Projet de loi Nature, we are a charitable conservation organization that 229, Loi visant à mettre en oeuvre les mesures budgétaires protects wild species and wild spaces through conserva- et à édicter, à modifier ou à abroger diverses lois. tion, education and public engagement. We represent over The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Good morning, 30,000 members and supporters and over 150 member everyone. We’re meeting today for public hearings on Bill groups across the province. 229, An Act to implement Budget measures and to enact, My comments today will focus on two schedules in Bill amend and repeal various statutes. 229: schedule 6, pertaining to the Conservation Author- We have MPP Stan Cho with us in the committee room, ities Act, and schedule 8, pertaining to the Crown Forest and the following members participating remotely: MPP Sustainability Act. In both cases, I urge you to remove Pang, MPP Arthur, MPP Roberts, MPP Smith, MPP Shaw, these schedules from Bill 229. MPP Thanigasalam, MPP Park and MPP Mamakwa. Like many other organizations that the committee has As a reminder, I ask that everyone speak slowly and already heard from, Ontario Nature is deeply concerned clearly. Please wait until I recognize you before starting to about the proposed amendments in schedule 6 that would speak. Are there any questions or business before we begin? significantly constrain and reduce the critical role that Seeing none, pursuant to the order of the House dated conservation authorities play in protecting the lands, November 23, 2020, each presenter will have seven waters and wildlife, which benefit communities across minutes for their presentation. After we have heard from Ontario. It would do this by narrowing the scope and all presenters, there will be time for questions from powers of conservation authorities, by restricting the members of the committee. This time will be broken down duties of conservation authority board members and by into two rounds of seven and a half minutes each for both reducing the involvement of conservation authorities in of the recognized parties and two rounds of four and a half land use planning and permitting. minutes for the independent members. Why does this matter? In a nutshell, it has to do with the unique mandate of conservation authorities to seek and act with the health of watersheds in mind. It’s not hard to ONTARIO NATURE understand that when we are talking about flood preven- ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE tion or about drinking water quality, we need to look EMPLOYEES UNION beyond political boundaries. We need to consider how water moves across the landscape and what activities CANADIAN MANUFACTURERS might impact it positively or negatively. The beauty of AND EXPORTERS conservation authorities is that they provide that watershed The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): I would now like perspective and bring science and evidence to bear on land to call upon our first witness of the day, Ontario Nature. If use planning and decisions.

F-3100 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 To do their work properly to protect the health of our The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute left. watersheds, conservation authorities are involved in a Dr. Anne Bell: —forestry operators from the broad suite of important endeavours, many, if not most, of requirements of the Endangered Species Act to protect and which are jeopardized by schedule 6. The monitoring recover species at risk. It would also remove the ability of carried out by conservation authorities, for example, is the minister to issue habitat protection orders to stop necessary for the effective delivery of flood mitigation and activities that could have a significant adverse effect on drinking water protection, as well as biodiversity conserv- species at risk. These changes are not in the public interest ation and ecological restoration efforts. Conservation and they have nothing to do with COVID recovery. authorities bring a vital watershed perspective to planning These amendments are part of a suite of government and development decisions so the development does not rollbacks on environmental protection with respect to put communities at risk from flooding and other climate forestry. Under the guise of eliminating duplication or so- change impacts through the loss of wetlands, woodlands called red tape, the government is proceeding on the false and farmland. assumption advanced by some within the forest industry With regard specifically to their role in regulating and that the Crown Forest Sustainability Act adequately permitting land use activities, Ontario’s special adviser on provides for species at risk and that the protections offered flooding said that it is a “critical component of Ontario’s under the Endangered Species Act are redundant and broader natural hazard management framework.” It’s unnecessary. This is simply not true. A fundamental critical to preventing loss of life and property, to reducing difference between the two pieces of legislation is that the public and private expenditures and to controlling the Endangered Species Act is designed to advance species negative impacts of development. recovery and prohibits harm to species— One of the reasons that we’ve seen such fierce public The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I outcry against the proposed changes in schedule 6 is that apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. conservation authorities have strong ties with their com- We’ll move to our next presenter, the Ontario Public munities. Service Employees Union. Please state your name for the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. record and you can get right into your presentation. Dr. Anne Bell: They protect important places and in Mr. Smokey Thomas: Hi. My name is Smokey fact are the second-largest landowner in Ontario. They Thomas. I’m president of the Ontario Public Service own and operate almost 300 publicly accessible Employees Union. As many of you might know, our union conservation areas, which millions of us visit on a regular basis. These places matter to people. represents more than 170,000 front-line public sector People also value conservation authorities as partners workers in communities across the province. We are one in community projects, partners who bring expertise and of the few unions in the country that has been growing resources to the table to initiate important stewardship and during the pandemic. That’s because front-line workers education efforts. know they can count on us to forcefully and faithfully Reducing and constraining the mandate of conservation represent their interests. authorities is contrary to the interests of the people of What are the vast majority of them interested in? Ontario. People have a stake in this, and that’s exactly why They’re interested in improving the care and services they they’re speaking up. Tens of thousands of individuals have deliver. They just want to give better help to more people. written to or phoned their MPPs to express their concern. That’s why I call them our front-line heroes, especially Ontario’s Big City Mayors, representing 29 major cities, during this pandemic. They’re not in this to get rich; have called for schedule 6 to be removed. At least 20 they’re in it to help, and many of them risk their own lives municipalities, urban, rural and suburban, have passed and safety to do so. resolutions likewise calling for schedule 6 to be removed. That’s why I was so genuinely pleased with the budget The opposition is coming from all directions, even the government tabled last month. I have been politically. Here is what Hamilton councillor Brad Clark OPSEU/SEFPO’s president since 2007 and was active in had to say when Hamilton passed its resolution last week, the union and politics for a long time before that, but this asking for the removal of schedule 6: year’s budget is the first one I can remember that didn’t “I am struggling to find words that are diplomatic and try to paint front-line public sector workers as the villains. respectful of a provincial government that, in a ham-fisted For years—in fact, decades—budget after budget has manner, would literally gut what a conservation authority made our members feel more like they’re on the firing is because developers in Toronto are suggesting that lines than the front lines. They’ve been blamed for deficits, conservation authorities are in the way of economic accused of being ineffective and inefficient, and shamed growth. If you think this is about the special interest for their salaries—which, by the way, aren’t nearly as high groups that are upset, you are mistaken.” Brad Clark, by as most people think. the way, was a former transportation minister in the Mike It was a real relief to finally hear a finance minister treat Harris government and labour minister in the Ernie Eves our members with respect instead of ridicule—no cuts, no administration. clawbacks, finally. I even liked the title of this year’s Now, just a couple of slides on schedule 8: Proposed budget: Protect, Support, Recover. It’s one of the most amendments to the Crown Forest Sustainability Act would concise and precise descriptions of public services I’ve permanently exempt— ever heard. It’s like government is finally starting to get it: 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3101 Public services are indeed the great equalizer. So I offer Yes, I’m making big demands here, but the appetite for congratulations to the government. This is truly one of the investment is strong, and public services is also big. I’m most encouraging budgets I’ve seen in a long time. sure you’ve seen the polls. My union conducted one, and But nothing in life is perfect, this budget included. many others have too. They’re all showing the same thing: While I consider it a good first step, it must not be the only The pandemic has opened people’s eyes to the incredible step. Let me suggest the next steps this government must value of public services, and now the vast majority say that take. public service investment is much more important than 0910 reducing the deficit. The vast majority are saying create, The first step has to do with the wage restraint legislated don’t cut. in Bill 124. For a variety of very good reasons, Bill 124 This budget and the ones to follow are an incredible has to go, and the sooner the better. For one thing, it’s opportunity for this government and all of Ontario. We’re unconstitutional, and I think you know that. I do know that in a moment when we can throw out the dusty old rule you know my union and many others are going to fight it book and the obsolete road map. The pandemic is forcing all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and we like us to make new rules and draw new maps and forge a new our chances of being victorious. Why waste millions on normal. Imagine the legacy we could start creating now lawyers’ fees that you don’t have to spend and that you’ll together: stronger health care, stronger education, stronger never get back? social services. These are the things that will get us safely For another thing, Bill 124 does a lot more damage than through the pandemic and safely through the ones that we good. Across the public sector, recruitment and retention know are going to follow. is a huge problem, especially in long-term care but in The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. many other sectors as well. You’re simply not going to Mr. Smokey Thomas: I urge this government, don’t attract as many workers to the public sector when you’re let this opportunity slip past. Now is the time for bold offering them three years of pay cuts. That’s essentially leadership, driven by self-confidence and optimism. what Bill 124 does because of inflation. It looks especially Ontarians have proven themselves throughout this pan- bad when compared to increases workers are getting in the demic, and now is the time for the government to prove to private sector. As the government itself acknowledges, the people of Ontario that it can build on our successes and private sector increases are averaging more than 2%, but to continue building for the future. you’re sticking public sector workers with increases that If I could just make a comment on Ontario Nature’s are half that—not exactly a hero’s welcome. So please, presentation, I agree with much of what you said. My repeal Bill 124. members actually work in the Ministry of the Environment The second step I’d like to see the government take is and we do represent a lot of workers and conservation to make a serious commitment to building up the capacity authorities. So I would like to add my support for that of our public services. It’s good that there were few cuts submission as well. Thank you. in the budget, but there weren’t many significant long- term investments either. Now is the time for investment, The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so major investment, and not just in physical infrastructure, much. but in social infrastructure as well. We need major Moving along to our next presenter—just to inform the investment in a health care system that can’t handle this members that one of the presenters, Mathew Wilson, will pandemic, and future ones, so we don’t have to endure so not be presenting. Alex Greco will be the only one many lockdowns presenting. Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, please The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. state your name for the record. You will have seven Mr. Smokey Thomas: Even before the pandemic, our minutes for your presentation. health care was hurting, but COVID-19 has truly exposed Mr. Alex Greco: Alex Greco, Canadian Manufacturers the cracks, especially in long-term care, where roughly and Exporters. 2,000 people have sadly died. The majority of those deaths Good morning, everyone. Thank you for inviting me have come in private homes. Clearly, more investment is here today on behalf of our association’s 2,500 direct needed. members and 780,000 manufacturers across Ontario to More investment is also needed in our colleges and discuss Bill 229 and additional measures that need to be universities. They need to be strong and agile enough to taken to provide growth and output for the manufacturing quickly develop and fully field credential programs to help sector in the 2021 budget. with skills shortages like those in long-term care. For all CME has been proud to partner with the government on you MPPs, we are working with long-term care and the the deployment of Ontario Made, a program to identify, colleges and our union-represented academics to actually celebrate and promote locally manufactured products to make some of that stuff happen, especially for long-term Ontarians. To date, over 6,700 products and 1,700 manu- care. Students need to be able to afford these programs. facturers have been registered on supportontariomade.ca. Tuition should be low or, better yet, free. Earlier this week, we launched our holiday gift guide to We need more investment in social services, like assist Ontarians with purchasing gifts for their friends, universal child care, that ensure everybody can live decent family and significant others this holiday season. lives and contribute positively to their communities and We want to thank the government for their ongoing the economy. support of the program and for including the Ontario Made

F-3102 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 logo on the cover of the budget document. We encourage changing rapidly. Not only do new entrants need up-to- all members of provincial Parliament on this committee date specialized training but also the ability to adapt and and within the Legislature to share the details of the evolve with future technological advancements. These program with your constituents. measures will start to help address these challenges. Over the last several months, we’ve been thinking Fourth, the introduction of Supply Ontario is an im- about the COVID-19 crisis and about Ontario’s economic portant step to modernize Ontario’s procurement system. recovery and prosperity. In June, CME issued a report that For years, the system needed to be modernized to ensure outlined what we believed was the foundation for econom- more goods to market, new innovation of emerging ic recovery and prosperity, called Manufacturing Our technologies— Future. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. Even before the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ontario Mr. Alex Greco: —and a connection between busi- economy and the manufacturing sector were showing nesses and its customers and the government. We look signs of strain. Years of underinvestment in capital equip- forward to working with the government in the weeks to ment and technology left many companies too small and come on the launch of this agency and to begin to uncompetitive in an increasingly globalized economy. implement new initiatives that modernize Ontario’s While manufacturers in Ontario have survived the procurement system. pandemic largely intact, they are in a much weaker state Fifth and finally, we were pleased that the government today. took the step to make the $1-million threshold on the With the second wave of COVID-19 infections, com- Employer Health Tax permanent. Many manufacturers bined with uncertainty around the timing and efficiency of suffered a simultaneous fall in demand and rise in supply a vaccine, business investment will remain restrained. The chain disruptions in the early weeks of the pandemic. data supports this. In CME’s 2020 Management Issues While the overall industry experienced a strong rebound Survey report, over 42% of manufacturers reported that coming out of the first lockdown, activity has scaled their current level of production was lower today than one markedly in line with exhaustive pent-up demand in a year ago. Additionally, an overwhelming majority of our second wave of infections. This measure allows manufac- members are anticipating a more drawn-out recovery, turers to have more liquidity on hand for their businesses. have a negative view of business conditions and are The more liquidity manufacturers have on hand, the better concerned about the future of the sector. positioned they will be to recover from the crisis. To that end, this budget needs to introduce two 0920 objectives: support investment and support economic As we look ahead to the 2021 spring budget, we must growth. In our view, this budget began to address these take additional steps to drive growth and manufacturing two objectives, and we would like to highlight five reasons output in our sector. To that end, CME is calling for a as to why we support this budget. broad-based industrial strategy. The strategy needs to First, the measures to make industrial electricity rates leverage the strength of the manufacturing sector and more competitive with other US jurisdictions will lower focus on the growth and scale-up of companies, the electricity costs for manufacturers. Such a measure is creation and adoption of new technology, and the lever- necessary, as before the pandemic Ontario manufacturers aging of our natural resources and natural advantages. were paying up to 75% more in electricity rates compared We also need to modernize Ontario’s tax and regulatory to major US jurisdictions. Lower cost equals more invest- system by introducing new investment support measures ment. With the Independent Electricity System Operator that support capital expansion and help de-risk technology estimating that electricity demand will not reach pre- adoption, implement new measures to protect employment COVID-19 levels until 2024, timing was of the essence. lands and zones, and undertake additional reforms to Second, the reduction of the Business Education Tax to Ontario’s property tax system. These measures are needed 0.88% in the most expensive Ontario jurisdictions is a to create even more manufacturing jobs, promote domestic long-overdue and welcome step. Ontario manufacturers manufacturing and further reduce business costs. are paying among the highest industrial property taxes Now is not the time to be complacent. Once the current across North America. In recent years, adjustments have crisis has passed, Ontario has an enormous opportunity to been made to a wide range of taxes, but little attention has win back manufacturing investment. been made to property taxes. These measures will begin to The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. lower property taxes for manufacturers and introduce Mr. Alex Greco: Due to the disruptions in supply at the more fairness in the property tax system. beginning of the pandemic, many manufacturers are look- Third, we welcome the creation of a skilled trades ing to diversify their supply chains to avoid overreliance strategy and funding for micro-credentialing and training. on a limited range of markets. This should elicit a strong The manufacturing sector still faces struggles with labour support from Ontario to step up its global [inaudible] so it and skills shortages. Simply put, they are limiting manu- can attract the best [inaudible] firms looking to re-shore facturers’ ability to innovate and invest in technology. As manufacturing. advanced manufacturing technologies become more But to stand any chance of success, attention must turn commonplace and as production processes become more quickly to addressing the main issues hindering our sector: sophisticated, the skill sets that businesses need are labour and skill shortages, an uncompetitive tax and 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3103 regulatory environment, new technology adoption and Bill 66: They slipped something in there that would export growth. have opened up the greenbelt to development, and the Thank you for the opportunity to present here today. I outcry then was huge. With Bill 66, that outcry resulted in look forward to your questions. the government removing the schedule that was going to The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so open up the greenbelt for development. much. My question to you is, do you think that the outrage We’ll start with the questions now. We’ll start the first over this schedule and the related outrage over the use of round of questions with the opposition. MPP Shaw. ministerial zoning orders to allow development on Ms. Sandy Shaw: Good morning, Chair. I would like provincially significant and protected wetlands, like in to start by thanking everyone for being here this morning, Ajax—do you have confidence that the government is but I would like to start my questioning with Ontario listening and that they will do the right thing and remove Nature, please. this schedule from the bill? You know, this schedule 6 that was slipped into a Dr. Anne Bell: I have hope; I hope that that’s the case. budget bill is something that I’m hearing a huge outcry They listened in the case of Bill 66 and they removed the about from my constituents, from people all across the problematic schedule. I’m hoping it’s the same in this riding and also all across the province. As you said, this case, because I would say that the outcry is equal. outcry is coming from all kinds of people. You mentioned your Zoom meeting. We had the same I wanted to mention specifically—and I appreciate you thing. We co-hosted a Zoom meeting with the Canadian bringing up—Brad Clark, because Brad Clark is a Environmental Law Association and Environmental councillor who I believe is the chair of the Hamilton Defence, and we had over 2,000 people register for it. Conservation Authority. That conservation authority has The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. done some remarkable work in preventing flooding. His Dr. Anne Bell: We’ve never seen anything like it. comments, that this is not a special interest group, really People are really concerned. come from MPP Donna Skelly, who represents part of that Ms. Sandy Shaw: I agree. I absolutely agree. Thank area and who said this is “just a lot of noise from special you for your presentation. interest groups.” I’m going to turn my attention to Smokey Thomas, Can you comment a little bit further on how this is not please, if you don’t mind. I’m actually going to continue special interest groups? This is people from all walks of on with the issue of the changes to the environmental life who think that this attack on conservation authorities protections. You mentioned that your staff—you represent is unwarranted and unwise. members who work in the Ministry of the Environment Dr. Anne Bell: Thank you very much for the question. and perhaps in the Ministry of Natural Resources. I think it’s really interesting that, for example, the The Auditor General just issued a scathing report on municipalities that have passed resolutions are from across this government’s performance on the environment. One the province geographically. So geographically, we’re of the things, among many things, she identified was that seeing this opposition. We’re seeing opposition, again, there is insufficient staffing in these ministries. Staff are across the political spectrum. We’re seeing it from people trying to do their jobs as best they can, but they don’t have, in cities, people in the countryside and people in suburban for example, ecologists and leading scientists. The staffing areas, so it really is quite diverse. That’s really no surprise is reduced and it’s impacting their ability to do their job because the good work that is done by conservation correctly. Do you have any comments on that? authorities benefits all of us, in all of these diverse places. Mr. Smokey Thomas: Yes, I do, actually. The cuts in For example, there’s one program that I love that’s the ministry and the cuts to conservation authorities, offered by the Credit Valley Conservation Authority. It frankly, were the result of 15 years of Liberal austerity and brings together landowners, people who need hay for their Mike Harris before that. The government didn’t do any- cattle and people who grow hay to try to find solutions to thing or, to the best of my knowledge, didn’t do much to benefit endangered birds. In that one program, they’re fix it in the short term when they were first elected, but bringing together farmers, landowners, conservationists this budget does present an opportunity to rebuild public and environmentalists and trying to find a solution to a services, to put the specialists that the Liberals got rid of problem that we all face. I think this is quite typical of the back into the ministry. I’d be really encouraging to hire work that conservation authorities do. them back. Ms. Sandy Shaw: Yes, thank you for that. Absolutely. Some of those conservation authorities are problematic. I think I’ve mentioned that I had a town hall on this last We’ve had all kinds of trouble down in Niagara with the week and I had over 1,000 people participate, which was conservation authority as an employer. They could turn a huge number of people to join a Zoom meeting. They’re their minds to accountability in some of the conservation really outraged by this. authorities. I think they’ve awoken to this government’s tactics. It’s I don’t really know all the changes because my focus trying to slip major changes that affect and impact our on this budget was public services, but yes, they’ve got a environment into budget bills. This is a budget bill. chance here in that bill. If there’s something in there that They’re still sitting on $9.3 billion worth of spending, should come out, they should take it out. But they should according to the FAO, but instead, their priority seems to put stuff back in there to rebuild the capacity to protect the be to attack the environment. environment, to protect our species.

F-3104 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. against this notion of a watershed perspective and getting Mr. Smokey Thomas: We’re stewards of the land, so beyond those political limitations to consider what makes they’ve got an opportunity here, I think, to put back into sense in terms of the landscape. that and be stewards of the land. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: And we all know that the Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you very much. watershed areas go beyond jurisdictional boundaries that In the time that we have left, I’m going to get you to have been drawn and it’s that co-operation that is really, comment on the FAO’s most recent report and what’s really needed. before the estimates committee of this Legislature, that Another aspect that has surfaced is the expertise that is there is $9.3 billion of unspent COVID-19 relief. We heard required on those boards. There are some boards that came yesterday testimony that in this new budget, there’s forward saying they are represented mostly by municipal- possibly up to $11 billion of unallocated dollars, in what ities, but other boards said that they rely on scientists and were described as phantom expenditures. This govern- the work of those experts who serve on the board to help ment is giving itself the ability to spend billions and inform the work of the conservation authorities. By billions of dollars that they put into contingency funds to restricting and limiting the composition of the board just reduce the debt and deficit. And you know this is a to municipal councillors, how do you believe that will government that likes to manipulate what the debt or the hinder the work? deficit is in the public. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. How do you feel about this government setting aside Dr. Anne Bell: Again, what you want in a board, a contingency funds that they can then use to reduce the debt functioning board, is exactly the expertise you need to and the deficit to show some good numbers, when they’re make your decisions properly. If you don’t have that still not investing in public services? expertise among your municipal representatives, you need The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I it elsewhere. And if that’s scientific expertise, then you apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. need to bring it on to your board. It’s that simple. Anybody We’ll go to the independent members now, but before who has been on a board understands that. When you’re we do that, we’ll do an attendance check for MPP Hunter. forming your board, you bring the people on that you need Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Hi, Chair. Yes, it’s MPP Hunter, to carry out your business. If you don’t have them, you and I am in Toronto. can’t carry out your business properly. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. Go Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Fundamentally, schedule 6 and ahead, please. schedule 8 have been shown to be an attack on our Ms. Mitzie Hunter: So I do want to speak to the environment and long-term sustainability of our natural conservation authorities. Ontario Nature has certainly wetlands and forests, and it should be removed. I would made the clear case for the importance of them. agree with those witnesses who have put that argument In terms of the original cuts that were made under the forward. I think it is a strong case for the government to guise of red tape reduction under the Harris government, reconsider and to remove those two schedules to protect this drastically reduced provincial funding for the our environment. The AG has also affirmed the need for conservation authorities. They were receiving $50 million more focus on the environment from this government as annually divided amongst all of the conservation author- well. Thank you so much. ities, and as a result of the Harris cuts, it was reduced from Dr. Anne Bell: Thank you. $50 million to $8 million. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’ll move to the 0930 government side now. MPP Smith. Then the conservation authorities had to, of course, re- Mr. Dave Smith: Thanks, Chair. I appreciate that. establish their model where they work very, very closely I’d like to correct some phantom numbers that MPP with municipalities for their approved budget. We’ve Shaw has put out. When she’s talking to the report from heard from many conservation authorities throughout the the Attorney General, that report was done based on first time of the witness testimonies about that important quarter numbers. So, yes, we had $9.3 billion in con- relationship that they have with municipalities. tingency, but most of that has actually been spent on I’m wondering if you can speak to the changes in the things. It allowed us the ability to be flexible and do a governance where each municipality that is on the board, number of things. Just for example— by legislation, will now have to represent their municipal- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw, do ity rather than the duty of care of the conservation you have a point of order? authority itself and its mandate. If I could hear from Anne Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you, Chair. While I appreci- about any concerns on the governance side in terms of the ate MPP Smith’s attempts to correct my record, I did not work that the conservation authorities do. say the Auditor General reported those numbers. If you Dr. Anne Bell: That’s a chief concern, in fact, because would take the time to read the report, it was the Financial as I tried to explain in my presentation, it’s the watershed Accountability Officer, so you’re conflating two reports. perspective that makes our conservation authority so But thank you for your effort to set it straight. unique and so highly regarded among many, many juris- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw, that’s dictions. So to actually direct board members to represent not a valid point of order. only the interests of their municipalities directly rubs up MPP Smith, you may continue. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3105 Mr. Dave Smith: Sorry about that. It was the Financial The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. Accountability Officer that I was talking about—my Mr. Dave Smith: Sticking with you, Alex, I want to mistake on that—and it was the first quarter that they were talk a little bit about micro-credentials. It’s something that talking about. We are now in the third quarter. When they I think a lot of people are a little bit confused on, what it do that report, they do it as a snapshot in time at that time. actually means and what it can do. You represent, It would really be beneficial if we were talking about obviously, manufacturers and exporters. There would today’s numbers, not something from two quarters ago. have to be some type of qualifications that they’re looking My question, though, is for Alex Greco. Alex, it’s good for specifically—not necessarily just a general bachelor of to see you. You talked a little bit about electricity rates. arts or bachelor of science degree, but specific to the I’m going to touch on that because you and I have had a industry. How do you think the investments in micro- number of conversations about the global adjustments and credential training are going to help in finding jobs for the effect on that. people? A couple of statistics I’d like to throw out: In class B, Mr. Alex Greco: In our latest Management Issues or commercial electrical users, we’ve seen a 118% Survey, 80% of our members still voice labour shortages increase in electricity over the decade. In class A, or as their primary issue. So the funding allows for employers industrial users, we’ve seen almost a 40% increase over to be able to help invest in their employees, and it allows that same period of time. We went from, at one point, the employees to be able to pursue a career in manufacturing. lowest electrical rates in North America—and here’s a I think one of the challenges is, in the past, there hasn’t staggering thought: In industrial rates, we are 60th out of been a proper balance between the academic side and the 65 jurisdictions, and in commercial rates, we’re now 64th practical side, trying to get employees to upgrade their out of 65. That’s not really a great thing. The changes that skills, especially at a time where equipment in we have made, though, will bring our industrial rates down manufacturing plants is becoming more complicated and into the top 10 and commercial rates into the top 12 in more technologically advanced than ever before. Being terms of what our rate will be moving forward. able to bridge that gap and get folks introduced into a There seems to be a misconception from some people career in manufacturing, I think, is significant. about what electricity rates mean in terms of jobs and As we move forward, though, how it’s implemented business being viable in this province. We saw more than and being very clear in terms of those guidelines is going 350,000 manufacturing jobs leave the province as a result to be important. That’s where I think the colleges and of some of the policies of previous governments. How universities have a role to play, the local economic de- does this help level the playing field? And what does it velopment agencies have a role to play and the govern- mean for the average person when there are companies that are here to employ them? ment itself. It all has to be connected and not in silos. Mr. Alex Greco: Thank you for the question, MPP 0940 Smith. The global adjustment, as you and I have talked Mr. Dave Smith: Thank you. I’m going to pivot over about, is one of the most expensive parts of an electricity to Smokey Thomas, if possible. bill for an industrial user. To be able to shrink that GA, Smokey, you represent a very large number of people when it was getting up to—and hearing the fact that it’s up who are unionized, obviously, since you’re a union head, to $6 billion in terms of a collective cost to the whole and a lot of the positions that your people have are higher- electricity system, it’s significant. Manufacturers need to paying positions than someone who is not a skilled be able to have cash flow and liquidity on hand to purchase labourer, for example. We’re making an investment in new machinery, equipment and technology. The changes skilled trades, and those tend to be higher-paying jobs than are a start to be able to get more cash in the hands of others. I’ve made the comment a number of times and I manufacturers to be able to make new investments. stand by it: I pay as much per hour for a plumber as I do I think that for the average Ontarian, it allows them to for a lawyer. be able to be employed in the sector. The more jobs and The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. the more growth we have in this sector, it strengthens Mr. Dave Smith: Do you think that our focus on communities, it strengthens companies and it allows us to skilled trades and getting people that type of an education, be able to build for the future, which I think is positive. rather than having a singular focus on university degrees, Having said that, though, our work isn’t done on that. I is going to be beneficial in the job market for people that mean, some of the statistics that you’ve cited, especially you also represent? for class B—moving forward for the 2021 budget, looking Mr. Smokey Thomas: I’m not agreeing, pretty much, at an industrial rate program option, what’s been done in with what you said there, but I would like to elaborate a New York, Florida and Quebec is very important, because bit, though. To go back to Alex’s point on micro- right now there’s only one program option, really, for large credentials, I have some folks who work in the community industrials, and that’s the ICI program. We need college system who are very concerned about micro- something for class B, because if we want to bring those credentialism. But I think there is a way for business, numbers down further, we won’t get them all by just government and the colleges to come together to actually shrinking the GA. So it’s a start, but more has to be done. train that workforce that we need. Mr. Dave Smith: Mr. Chair, how much time do we I’ll give you an example: My grandson wanted to get have left? into a welding program. Well, he didn’t have the right

F-3106 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 English. I’m sorry, but as a granddad, I don’t quite diversify our supply chains. That procurement piece is understand why he would have to have some sort of important. It’s not just about health care products and advanced English to be a welder. So there are some things about PPE; it’s about food products and all types of there that I think— manufacturing goods. If we do that, that will encourage The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I more tech adoption, more innovation and more success apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. overall to win back manufacturing investments. We’ll have to move to the independent members now. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I’m glad you touched on that, MPP Hunter? Alex, because the export part of your membership is Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I want to thank our presenters. I extremely important for us to see that bounce-back. want to say to Smokey, thank you so much for the work Mr. Alex Greco: Yes, I know, absolutely. I think the that your members have done for the province throughout other thing, though, is—what’s happening right now is we the pandemic. I know that it hasn’t been easy and they have different funding programs in Ontario, but there’s not have stepped up. I want to recognize and acknowledge one centralized source to be able to find out supports, their good work to keep Ontario’s people and population where people can apply for funding, where to look at in as safe as possible, and to roll out the programs to respond terms of getting assistance. The government has talked to that. about Invest Ontario, but it has to go beyond that. It has to I do want to just spend a little bit of time with the be a concierge service to help companies: “What can we manufacturers, given the fact that we are in a recession that do to get you to invest in Ontario?” If we don’t make it has been caused by the response to COVID. When we look easy and seamless, like what’s happened in Ohio— back at the 2008-09 recession, there were over 800,000 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. Sorry jobs that were lost as a result of that recession. All of those to cut you off. The time has come up. jobs were brought back and Ontario enjoyed historic We’ll move back to the government side now for their records in terms of low unemployment rates and a strong second round. MPP Pang. GDP relative to other OECD countries. Mr. Billy Pang: Hi. Good morning, everyone. Thank As we look at this recession, there are concerns in terms you to all the presenters for giving us your presentations. of the recovery and what type of recovery it will be. Will I think a lot of your concerns are being brought to the the whole economy recover or will parts of it recover and attention of the government. split into what they’re calling a K-shaped recovery, where certain groups don’t participate in that recovery at the My first question is for Mr. Greco again. Through the same rate as others? I’m wondering if you could speak to 2020 budget, the government announced that it will level what is next for your members and what they are seeing, the playing field by lowering the Business Education Tax and how you can be supported in terms of seeing a strong rates for over 200,000 employers, or 94% of the businesses total recovery for Ontario’s economy. in Ontario, starting next year, January 1. This will create Mr. Alex Greco: Thank you, MPP Hunter. It’s good to $450 million in immediate annual savings and represents see you. a reduction of 30% for many businesses currently subject I think that, first and foremost, we really have to look to the highest BET rates in the province. at our tax and regulatory system. That’s really what is next How would this proposed Business Education Tax for us, because right now, for years, federally, the small reduction—and also another one, which is the Employer business tax threshold has been stuck at $500,000. There’s Health Tax exemption—impact the business of your not been an incentive for companies to be able to grow. At members? Also, could they use the savings to invest in a time right now when the Canadian real GDP is set to other areas to adapt their business to current decline by 5.6% this year, that’s concerning. Right now, circumstances? more than ever, we have to be able to make those Mr. Alex Greco: Thank you for the question. Simply investments. So looking at a reduction of the M and P rate put, these measures do help give manufacturers more cash is one thing; looking at an investment tax credit, rooted in flow and liquidity at a time where—while manufacturing the tax code, to provide support for company training and sales were up at the start, after the lockdown manufactur- purchasing machinery, equipment and technology, as a ing sales have stagnated. We’ve heard from a number of couple of examples, is something that’s very important our companies right now that they’re really worried in going forward. terms of being able to keep up with sales in the first quarter If we’re going to be able to grow and get more com- of 2021. So the more cash they have to be able to invest to panies here, we can’t be afraid to invest and spend. Just keep employees, to be able to make new investments, to doing cuts is not going to get us to where we need to go. look at expansion plans is important. But I want to stress, In all the different areas I touched on, whether it’s on Mr. Pang, I think this is only a start. skills, whether it’s on training, whether it’s on electricity For example, for property taxes right now, in certain costs, we have to be able to spend. The more companies regions it will help, like in Pembroke and some of the GTA we have, the more jobs we’ll be able to have, and we’ll be regions. But in some jurisdictions in Ontario, we’re still able to bring down the deficit as a whole. uncompetitive in terms of property tax rates between The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. industrial, commercial and residential. We need to be able Mr. Alex Greco: I think, as we go forward, the other to implement more fairness in the system. That includes thing we also have to do is we have to provide supports to looking at lowering property tax rates down the line, by 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3107 ensuring more fairness across the entire system and Mr. Smokey Thomas: That’s certainly a very looking at property tax assessments, so to streamline and welcome investment. The problem becomes that you have, then reduce red tape, especially when we look at 2019 frankly, a lot of critics saying that you’re not doing valuation levels. I think that’s one part of it. enough. You just don’t start recruiting on Tuesday— With the Employer Health Tax and BET tax, I think The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. that’s important because 30,000 businesses—at the start of Mr. Smokey Thomas: —and hire on Wednesday. the pandemic, if actions weren’t done quickly, companies Even PSWs have to go through the training course. They would have shut doors. They would have gone out of need to be trained adequately and come out at the other business. So it helps, and I think having that extended end competent in the duties they’re going to perform, same long-term allows companies to be able to plan for the as RPNs, same as RNs. So it’s a very welcome investment, future and think about what their overall outlook is over but in long-term care, the staffing crunch is going to take the next three to five years. a little while to fix. Mr. Billy Pang: Okay. That’s a great response for us. I One of the things that would be good is if the wage rates think that, in the future, we don’t want to give more burden were the same across the board and they were full-time to businesses so that we can move forward to have a better jobs, those sorts of things. I’ve had conversations with the economy, especially regarding our government’s goal to Premier about this. So I think that’s a very welcome help business recover after the pandemic. Thank you. addition to the budget, I have to say. Mr. Chair, how much time do I have? Again, we have our college academics working in long- About four The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): term care, working with health to actually get PSWs minutes. properly trained up, credentialized, and out and into the Mr. Billy Pang: Okay. The next question is for Ms. workforce. There’s a $5,000 bonus if you sign up and Bell. I appreciate your concerns on the environment. The agree to stay for a while. All of these things are really, government has recently announced several investments really good to recruit— that aim to preserve Ontario’s natural spaces and protect our environment. That includes investment in new and The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so innovative waste water and stormwater programs, such as much. Sorry to cut you off. $50 million over two years to improve the management of We’ll move to the opposition side now. Opposition? Lake Ontario waste water discharge, $10 million to MPP Mamakwa. provide support for waste water monitoring and public Mr. Sol Mamakwa: Thank you for the presentation, to reports to improve transparency, and $7.5 million to Warren and Alex and also Anne. contribute to the health of the Great Lakes and watersheds. I want to do a quick question to Ontario Nature. I know Can you explain how this investment could contribute it’s been a while since we met, about a year and a half or to protect the health of Ontarians now and in the future? so. We met a couple of times. I come from a riding, 0950 Kiiwetinoong, in northwestern Ontario that is 294,000 Dr. Anne Bell: Sure. I’m not that familiar with these square kilometres, so it’s a very big riding. When we talk investments, but obviously any investments that help to about the environment, when we talk about the resources protect water and clean up pollution are more than that are there, the access to the waters, our people have welcome. It’s important to all communities and important always been concerned about the environment. We’ve to all of the species and all of the wildlife that depend on been here for thousands of years, and me coming down to these watersheds. Toronto to do Queen’s Park work in this Legislature— Mr. Billy Pang: So you think it’s okay for us that we sometimes people refer to the Far North as remote, but it’s put in this investment in the budget to protect the Toronto that’s remote for me, just because we’ve been environment, right? here thousands of years but I don’t know how long Dr. Anne Bell: I think it’s good that we’re investing in Toronto has been here. I just wanted to say that. water protection and water cleanup, absolutely. I think a I know when we talk about traditional territories, when lot more needs to be done. For example, there are many we talk about treaty territories—without the treaties, the Indigenous communities in Ontario that are still on lands that exist as Ontario would not be there. What I’m drinking water advisories, so maybe there could be some getting at is that I think sometimes when we talk about investment there. There are lots of places for investment engagement with the First Nations people as a province, and every little bit is welcome, but a lot is needed. as a government—and sometimes they do not talk to us. Mr. Billy Pang: Yes, okay. Thank you for your answer. I can say that I have this one community that has had My third question is for Warren. As you mentioned, 25 years of a boil-water advisory in the community. I just you’re representing 170,000 members across Ontario. The saw a clip there this morning whereby this young nine- budget includes $52 million to recruit, retain and support year-old girl, Bedahbun Moonias, was saying, “We’re not over 3,700 front-line health workers, including nurses and animals.” They’re not goats. They want clean drinking personal support workers, to ensure that Ontario’s health water. They want to go home, and right now it’s not care system can meet any surge in demand. happening. Yes, I know this budget is about protect, How would this investment help provide safe, high- support and recover from COVID-19, but right now quality care for patients and long-term residents as we they’re staying in a hotel in Thunder Bay. What’s Ontario move through this pandemic and beyond? doing about it?

F-3108 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 But I think what I want to get at is I know there is quite You do need a contingency fund; it’s just what it’s used a bit of discussion with respect to schedule 6, regarding for. I think that’s something the Legislature would need to some of the zoning orders and not recognizing the treaty address, but it should be spent on real public services and rights, Aboriginal rights. I know there’s a derogation real people and not on deficit reduction. clause in there. Can you talk a little bit about Indigenous Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you very much. issues and Indigenous lands versus this specific schedule The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so 6, and how you see it aligning or not aligning? much. This is all the time we have for this morning. The Dr. Anne Bell: Sure. First, this schedule affects a huge committee is now in recess until 1 p.m. this afternoon. portion of the province, not the place where you’re from, The committee recessed from 1000 to 1300. but still, places in northern Ontario and right across south- ern Ontario—and these are all in the traditional territories of Indigenous peoples. You have to wonder, when FEDERATION OF ONTARIO something comes forward at the speed with which this bill COTTAGERS’ ASSOCIATIONS came forward, with this schedule tucked inside of that bill, was there any consultation with Indigenous communities? NATURE LONDON None that I’ve heard of. I would be happy to know if there CAREER COLLEGES ONTARIO was, but none that I’ve heard of. So it’s a violation of their constitutional rights, their The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Good afternoon, treaty rights and their inherent rights as Indigenous people, and welcome back. We’ll be continuing public hearings on not to be consulted on something that is going to definitely Bill 229, An Act to implement Budget measures and to affect their communities, because there are many enact, amend and repeal various statutes. Indigenous communities that work with their conservation We’ll go to our next presenter this afternoon, the Fed- authorities to address issues like water quality, wildlife eration of Ontario Cottagers’ Associations. If you can habitat, restoration and all of these things. They are going please state your name for the record, and you will have to be affected by this schedule unless it’s removed. seven minutes for your presentation. Mr. Sol Mamakwa: Thank you for that. In the last few Mr. Terry Rees: Thank you. It’s Terry Rees. I’m the days we’ve been hearing about the removal of this executive director of the Federation of Ontario Cottagers’ schedule 6, so I understand that. Associations. I’d like to thank Chair Sandhu and members The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. of the standing committee today for the opportunity to Mr. Sol Mamakwa: I’m going to pass it off to my speak to you this afternoon. I appreciate the opportunity to colleague Sandy Shaw. speak about budget bill 229 and specifically our concerns The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw. with the proposed amendments to the Conservation Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you very much. I’m going to Authorities Act and schedule 6 of Bill 229. FOCA believes go back to Mr. Thomas. I thought my question before was that schedule 6 in its entirety should be removed from this an excellent question; it was just too long. As quickly as bill. possible, can you maybe comment on what I asked earlier, As representatives of Ontario’s 250,000 waterfront which is that this government is sitting on billions and property owners, we have a 55-plus-year tradition of billions of dollars of contingency funding, particularly at supporting sustainable and affordable communities. Col- a time when front-line public services—especially health lectively, these property owners contribute a conservative care, education workers and PSWs working in long-term $800 million annually in local property taxes, and we care—are understaffed and underpaid? The government recognize that a portion of these are directed via local calls this prudence, but we think this money would be levies to various conservation authorities. Our member prudently spent to keep people safe. If you could comment on that, that would be great. associations are located in six different Ontario municipal- Mr. Smokey Thomas: I agree; the money needs to go ities served by a conservation authority. out the door. But I also understand, having been around a What our residents and our communities get in return long, long time, with all three parties in government, that for our investment is expert advice on managing our local it takes a while to get the money out the door. Some of that resources; guidance that protects public safety and private money from the feds didn’t actually show up. Politicians property; and independent, apolitical oversight for local make the announcements and the money takes two or three land use planning; environmental monitoring; and signifi- months to come. I think in the Ministry of Finance they cant amounts of leveraged community stewardship for our need to find a way to get the money out the door quicker. water resources and other natural resources. That would be very welcome. So if it’s there to be spent, We were pleased to be invited to Minister Yurek’s let’s spend it, and let’s get things fixed up real quick. consultations on conservation authorities in early 2020, Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you. What do you think about both in Colborne in MPP Piccini’s riding and also in how they’ve given themselves the wiggle room to spend London. On both these occasions, we presented a focused that contingency funding to reduce the deficit? position that managing on a watershed level is essential to Mr. Smokey Thomas: Well, they’re politicians. I protecting our families, our communities, our infrastruc- guess they can give themselves whatever they like. They ture and our economy. We asked then, and would still like have a majority, so what can I say? to know, if not the conservation authorities, then who? 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3109 Conservation authorities have many important respon- and that’s conservation authorities, municipalities and, on sibilities delegated to them by the province. They’re also our behalf, the public. Any resulting fine-tuning of this governed by a board that consists of their primary funders system, including greater clarity between CAs from both and their clients, who are local municipalities. Local CAs the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry and the staff up with local expertise and have access to the kind of Ministry of the Environment, Conservation and Parks, will local information, resources and conditions that inform allow this unique and highly celebrated model of prudent decisions. watershed management to serve the economy of Ontario We believe that allowing the routine appeal of conserv- well and will ensure that the goals of the government ation authority land use planning decisions to the Minister continue to be supported. of Natural Resources will have poorer outcomes for our I appreciate your attention today, and that concludes my communities and the natural assets they need to be livable remarks. Thank you. and sustainable. Integrated watershed management neces- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so sitates the need for an approach that operates across much. municipal jurisdictions while still considering local Before we move to our next presenter, I would like to priorities, as identified by member municipalities. Inte- do an attendance check. MPP Kusendova? grated watershed management has been advocated by the Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Yes, hi. Good afternoon, province’s Special Advisor on Flooding and was a leading Chair. This is MPP Kusendova. I’m calling in from my recommendation in the provincially appointed Muskoka office here at the Legislative Assembly. Thank you. Watershed Advisory Group interim report. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. What we didn’t hear at the consultations earlier this Our next presenter is Nature London, McIlwraith Field year, nor have we seen in practice, was a compelling Naturalists of London, Ontario Inc. Please state your name rationale for the broad changes being proposed in schedule for the record, and you will have seven minutes for your 6 of Bill 229. FOCA believes that any revisions to dele- presentation. gated responsibilities and related authority should come Ms. Muriel Andreae: Thank you very much for the through a commitment to reforms and through consulta- opportunity to speak today. I’m Muriel Andreae, past tions between Conservation Ontario, local municipalities, president of, and speaking on behalf of, Nature London, a AMO and the province, along with the appropriate public 156-year-old natural history organization in southwestern Ontario with over 400 members. Our motto is to preserve consultation and posting under the Environmental Bill of and enjoy nature. Rights. We are concerned that schedule 8 of Bill 229 will Under the Environmental Bill of Rights, Ontario permanently affect species at risk and their habitats. It citizens have a right to participate in government decisions would give authorized logging operations a permanent affecting the environment. It’s intended to allow the public exemption from prohibitions against killing species at risk the opportunity to participate in decisions that could and destroying their habitats. This damaging amendment impact Ontario’s air, water, land and wildlife. Con- does not even have public consultation under the Environ- servation authorities play a significant role in these areas mental Bill of Rights because it has been introduced in a and, as such, these decisions about reform deserve and budget bill. should be afforded the appropriate public oversight and We are concerned that schedule 6 of Bill 229 will transparency. undermine the ability of conservation authorities to do We believe in an effective and affordable system to their job. It has also been introduced without the opportun- deliver sound and sustainable land use planning, and good ity for public review. Schedule 6 would reduce the man- land use management equates to good water management dated objectives of conservation authorities and reduce and to the protection of water quality and quantity so their programs and services. essential to all of us. Ontario’s conservation authorities are We need CAs to bridge municipal boundaries. They use uniquely positioned to do just that, but they need the watershed-based planning and permitting to protect regulatory breadth and authority to discharge these duties. wetlands, woodlands and flood plains. Programs such as Conservation authorities currently are empowered to their decades-old water monitoring program reflect the ensure proposals meet hazard lands and source water health of our region. This information inspires many protection objectives. The minister simply doesn’t have landowners, farmers and urbanites to implement water the breadth of local knowledge and context to make these quality protection programs that reduce soil erosion to decisions on their own, and an appeal to the office of the prevent nutrients or toxins like oil and herbicides from minister as part of the normal course of land use planning entering drains, streams and rivers. will put us more at risk and will cost us all more. When Conservation authorities have a history of working well carrying out source protection and natural hazard func- with funding agencies and landowners in providing water tions, CAs apply science-based information, tools and quality protection programs. The proposed changes to the decision-making to inform their decisions. We believe our CA act would leave many Ontario watersheds at risk of an communities deserve that standard of care. uncoordinated approach to flood control and water quality, In conclusion, FOCA strongly encourages the province and we may be unable to meet our commitment under to remove schedule 6 in its entirety from Bill 229 and to international agreements to reduce nutrient loading into commit to a genuine consultation with the parties affected, Lake Erie.

F-3110 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 In the 2019 report on flooding, Ontario’s special We’ll move to our next presenter, Career Colleges adviser Doug McNeil recommended that the province Ontario. If you can please state your name for the record, consult and collaborate with CAs on flood management. and you can get right into your presentation. He indicated it was a priority to support CAs to protect our Mr. Chris Conway: Good afternoon. My name is wetlands and green infrastructure and reduce the impacts Chris Conway— of flooding. Water and flooding do not recognize or The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Sorry. Just to respect political municipal boundaries. The proposed inform the members as well, Adrian Sharma, one of the amendments to the CA act will undermine CAs’ flood presenters, will not be presenting. Thank you. Go ahead, management abilities by limiting their planning abilities, please. and we need those wetlands and green infrastructures for Mr. Chris Conway: Thank you very much. We appre- flood management and for biodiversity. ciate the opportunity to be here today. My name is Chris The proposed amendments on the duties of members Conway. I’m the CEO of Career Colleges Ontario. also undermine the governance responsibility of members. We’re a not-for-profit organization and we’re seeking Members cannot oversee the conservation authority in the equitable treatment of career college students on a level whole watershed if the legislation has directed them to playing field for our member institutions. We represent only consider the interests of one municipality. CAs cur- over 240 career colleges and 80% of students in the sector. rently make authorities and deliver programs based on Our members graduate over 30,000 students a year in watershed-scale considerations. essential skilled jobs, in fields such as PSWs, applied arts, The programs and services which benefit Ontario business, health care, human services, information tech- citizens and our natural areas locally include tree-planting nology and pre-apprenticeship training. We’re the largest and woodlot management; biodiversity conservation and restoration with native shrubs, nettle and prairie species; trainers of PSWs in Ontario, with over 4,000 graduates environmental education programs, which help youth annually. make informed decisions on their actions and their future; It’s becoming clearer during COVID-19 that many of wetland creation and restoration on public and private our institutions are becoming the trainer of choice for properties; outdoor trail development and management, displaced workers. In recent months, we’ve seen an which provides recreation and health benefits; and support increase of enrolment of up to 25% over and above record for stewardship organizations like Friends of Medway enrolment levels. Given the high rate of employment in Creek, which spur local interest in protection of healthy, many of these fields, we are very encouraged by this trend. diverse watersheds. First and foremost, we’re not here to ask for money in Many of the programs and services that we most the budget. We submit that by levelling the playing field appreciate will be severely undermined if they’re and implementing requests that we made in our budget classified in the future as non-mandatory. The new system submission, the number of students enrolled and subse- of patchwork programs and services, with a possibility of quent placed in skilled jobs will continue to grow. ministerial-level permit decisions, would undermine We would like to tell you a bit about a typical college watershed science, reduce watershed health and increase student. More than half are over 30 years old; nearly 70% hazards to public safety. CAs can make non-political of career college students are women; 12% are single technical decisions based on natural hazard science; parents; and half of career college students are first- schedule 6 would allow the minister to overrule these generation Canadians who are upgrading their credentials, decisions. or earning a new credential, to excel in the workforce. Put The proposed changes would increase red tape, with simply, career college students are laid-off workers, sole- new requirements of municipal service agreements. support parents, injured workers, newcomers to the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. province and persons with disabilities. We support Ms. Muriel Andreae: We do not see why the province Ontario’s hard-to-train students and give them the one-on- feels this is valuable as it will increase administration costs one education resources they need to fulfill the jobs of without program benefits. There would be additional today and tomorrow. We’re the bridge to their workforce. significant delays and costs for CA regulation enforcement We often say it’s difficult to go more than two weeks in and planning and permitting processes. Appeals to the Ontario without meeting one of our graduates. For Local Planning Appeal Tribunal and direct appeals to the example, we train PSWs, medical office assistants, dental minister will add to municipal costs as CA admin and legal assistants, lab technicians, truck drivers, heavy equipment costs will increase. operators, welders, security guards, pilots, chefs, para- 1310 medics and pharmacy assistants, among others. Schedule 6 sets back watershed planning by decades One of our asks relates to apprenticeship training. just when we need it more than ever because of climate Currently, career college students can enrol in one of the change. We need more green space, more consideration of hundreds of pre-apprenticeship courses offered at career water quality and quantity, not less. We recommend that colleges in the province, but they have to attend a schedule 6 be withdrawn entirely from Bill 229. community college for full apprenticeship training. We Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. submit that career colleges should be able to offer appren- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you for ticeship training. Many of these students chose career your presentation. colleges because of the smaller class sizes, older student 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3111 demographic, proximity to their residence and the one-on- for 30 years with all the levels of compliance that are one support they get from instructors. They also have required for that. financial and familial responsibilities that require flexible The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. course schedules, and they may find it difficult to com- Mr. Chris Conway: In conclusion, we submit that by mute outside of their communities due to these levelling the playing field by implementing the requests in obligations. our pre-budget submission, the number of students It’s our position that any student in Ontario pursuing a enrolled in career colleges and subsequently placed in post-secondary education deserves fair access to programs skilled jobs will continue to grow. We believe this is of and financial support. For example, when it comes to crucial importance given the demand we’re seeing from second-career funding, a community college student can students seeking to improve their skill set to gain a be awarded more than double the amount than if they meaningful career. Thank you very much. attended a career college. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so Community college students enrolled in online training much. are eligible for full OSAP funding. Our colleges have only We’ll start with the questions, but before we do that, been allowed to offer online and blended learning MPP Babikian, can you please confirm your attendance? temporarily during COVID. We request that this should be Mr. Aris Babikian: Yes, this is MPP Aris Babikian in made permanent. This offering is already successfully in Queen’s Park in Toronto. place, and third-party accreditation goes along with it in The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. We’ll many cases. Frankly, it goes against all the trends in start the questions with the government. MPP Roberts. education to not offer online or blended learning. Mr. Jeremy Roberts: To all of our witnesses, thank Unfortunately, international students are not eligible for you for your presentations—very much appreciated. post-graduation work permits, which are available to I want to start my questions with Terry, if I can. Terry, international students attending public institutions. I proudly count myself amongst your membership. My They’re also available for students attending private family has been very fortunate to have a cottage up in the institutions in Quebec, so they can study in Ontario or they Lanark area outside of Ottawa for a number of years now. can come into Quebec to get access to the Canadian I’ve got to say it’s one of my favourite places to get away, market in a private institution. Then, in our case, our not least of all because no one can reach me on my graduates cannot contribute to the province’s workforce cellphone when I’m there, which is a nice getaway. simply because they’ve attended a private college. I wanted to ask you about two of our tax credits that Training to supply businesses with in-demand workers we’ve included in this budget. The first one is the is what we do best. Our member programs quickly adjust staycation tax credit that we’re going to be rolling out in to market needs, and our students who otherwise would 2021 to encourage folks to spend money in the tourism struggle to enter the workforce are given the attention and sector in Ontario. Of course, I know a lot of cottage owners supports they need to excel in their chosen fields. also rent their cottages out, so I’m wondering if you can There is a misconception that our students are inter- speak a little bit about that. changeable with the students of public colleges. In fact, as And then the second one is our Seniors’ Home Safety I explained, our demographic is actually quite different. Tax Credit. I know a lot of cottage owners are retirees, are Our students tend to be older and have a different set of seniors. I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit on characteristics, in terms of work experience and so on, how that tax credit can benefit some of your members in than your average community college student. Therefore, doing some upgrades to their cottages, to make them a they’re often referred to as the invisible sector. For these little bit more accessible and safe for them. students, institutions have to be flexible to their needs and Mr. Terry Rees: Thank you for the question. Lanark is not the other way around. Our members are able to offer one of our favourite areas, of course, as a water-filled this flexibility, if allowed. jurisdiction, and I’m sure that your government’s work on In addition, we submit that a delegated authority model broadband will either exacerbate or solve your problem to sector regulation has shown to be really successful in about cell access. Thank you for the question. I won’t be the past. There are 14 delegated authorities in Ontario, and able to speak, I’m afraid, to the seniors’ tax credit, one only needs to look at similar organizations, such as the although many of our members are aged. Certainly, any Real Estate Council of Ontario or the Ontario Motor help for seniors is surely helpful, but I frankly can’t speak Vehicle Industry Council, for assurance that this model to that one. works. In addition, mandatory membership to Career I know as a member of the Muskoka Economic Recov- Colleges Ontario would allow institutions to report the bad ery Task Force that we’re very big proponents of shopping actors in the sector—although there are very few, but locally. Supporting our local rural communities is very still—for immediate correction and eliminate the environ- important. Realizing none of us can really go anywhere ment of fear imposed on operators. and we should be staying in our wonderful province of Career Colleges Ontario is a mature organization that Ontario anyway, I think that will be a progressive and has informed and organized the sector since 1972. I would positive contribution to help people realize what’s in their add that we actually handle in our office the OSAP own neighbourhood and continue to support their local processing for over 23,000 students here. We’ve done that service providers and merchants. So I think that’s terrific.

F-3112 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 Hopefully that will be able to continue, to have a legacy of informed that this is going to be permitted going ahead, the wonderful water that we’ve been blessed with and we ensuring that we can do this. But we think we’re ideally hopefully will continue to steward responsibly. positioned given the short training durations, that we can Mr. Jeremy Roberts: Yes, for sure. As we moved into really help with the micro-credentialing aspect. this, we had heard from so many folks in the tourism sector Also, a couple of other things that we were very pleased that two of the things they wanted to see were (1) with are the announcement of the consultations taking marketing support and (2) some tax incentives. As we place on the Second Career program—that’s great news— move into marketing 2021 as the year of the staycation, I and also the consultations taking place on apprenticeship think we have so many opportunities to highlight the training. We did participate and talked to the skilled trades beautiful cottage countries we have all over the province, panel. There were several things there, in addition to the whether it’s in Lanark, Rideau Lakes, the Kawarthas, the micro-credentials, that we were very pleased to see. So Muskokas, up north in northern Ontario. I’m sure my thank you for that. colleague MPP Smith from Peterborough–Kawartha Mr. Jeremy Roberts: Absolutely. Just to touch on one might have a few comments on that as well, but thank you of those other things as well, there was also the $100 again for your presentation. million in funding for 2020-21, through Employment 1320 Ontario— I’m going to pivot now to Career Colleges Ontario. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. Chris, thanks for your presentation. In this budget, for us, Mr. Jeremy Roberts: —for skills training for workers there were three key pillars that we wanted to focus on, the most affected by COVID-19. Are you able to perhaps first being protecting our health care, the second being describe a little bit what kind of services Employment supporting families and businesses and the third—this is Ontario can provide to those who have been affected and where I think you guys fit in beautifully—is laying the how this funding could be best used to fill that skilled foundation for recovery and making sure that as we trades gap that we have in Ontario? eventually move out of this pandemic, we’ve laid the right Mr. Chris Conway: Yes, absolutely. First and fore- groundwork to allow businesses to flourish. Of course, most, we’ve actually had some discussions recently with making sure that we have a skilled workforce available is the various ministries about ensuring that when people a huge part of that, and career colleges will be an come in to Employment Ontario offices, they’re given the incredibly important partner. full picture of what’s available out there, which includes not just the public institutions but also the private ones. I want to talk a little bit about the $59.5 million to sup- We, in fact, became aware that there was a memorandum port Ontario’s first micro-credential strategy. Of course, issued a couple of years ago stating that in all circum- this investment is going to go to create a fund to incent the stances it should be done as a level playing field, which development of new micro-credentials that respond to we are very encouraged to see. regional labour market needs and strengthen partnerships Employment Ontario is a key resource across the between post-secondary institutions to help people retrain province for a lot of people looking to make a change in and upgrade their skills. I’m wondering if you could talk a their career or someone who is a displaced worker, little bit about this. How will this investment benefit particularly right now with what’s going on with COVID. students, and help students, from your perspective, acquire They can get information about the Second Career pro- the relevant expertise to enter the workforce? gram, for example, through Employment Ontario. So it’s Mr. Chris Conway: Thank you very much for that. I a really crucial part of how we come in contact with people appreciate it. Actually, yes, there were several things in the initially— budget we were very pleased to see. Generally, some of The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. Sorry the support we’re receiving from the government—the to cut you off. The time has come up. temporary approval of online learning and blended We’ll go to the opposition now. MPP Shaw. learning has been very helpful and essential under the Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you to the presenters this circumstances, and this relates to the question about afternoon. micro-credentials. We’re hoping that that gets extended I’m going to focus my first round of questioning to the indefinitely, given that in particular a lot of micro- Federation of Ontario Cottagers’ Associations. We were credential training is done online. We believe that the also surprised to see this in a budget bill. Really, we feel theory portion of these courses—when it’s offered in that that the government should have been spending their format, you’re able to reach some of the isolated priority time looking at how they were going to spend the communities within the province. We have locations all billions of dollars that they’re still sitting on instead of over the province. We have 240 members. So just to say looking at changes to the conservation authorities that that we’re very keen on micro-credentialing. nobody asked for. So we were surprised. A key part of this is ensuring that the Ministry of The opposition that you mentioned is coming from all Colleges and Universities is aware. In the past, micro- sides. It’s the big city mayors. We had the Ontario credentialing was frowned upon. The inspectors deemed Federation of Agriculture speak out against this. It’s just it—the term they used, I believe, was “stacking.” They another of this government’s what would seem to be a pro- were not in favour of micro-credentialing. So we’ve developer, anti-environment attack. It weakens environ- actually requested to the ministry that the inspectors be mental protections, and we know that. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3113 You asked the question, which I think is so important, on this government’s performance when it comes to the if not CAs, then who? Who is going to be doing this? environment. They said that multiple government min- Because we know that the conservation authorities have istries are non-compliant with their responsibilities under been in place—I heard they’ve been through 11 Premiers, the Environmental Bill of Rights and that this prevented so they’ve been doing this work for years and years and its effective operation. They said that some ministers are years. Why now, without significant consultation, would still not posting environmentally significant proposals on this government be throwing conservation authorities the environmental registry. under the bus? You and your organization and folks were consulted, Mr. Terry Rees: I think there was a question there. and out of good faith you participated in that. But this leads Without presupposing the rationale for putting it into an to the kind of cynicism that we see, when people think that omnibus bill with 98 other acts, we agree that it is worthy they are talking to the government, but the government of its own specific consultations. It’s such a matter of just turns around and does something that makes no sense. public interest, and the Environmental Bill of Rights is I will say the city of Hamilton passed a unanimous meant to provide those kinds of important decisions with motion to call for the repeal of this. The mayor said that the kind of public oversight and transparency that we think this province’s attempt to expedite development is “filled it deserves. with error and filled with hazard” for flood plains and We’ve seen low and high water in the same regions in water courses. “And it just makes absolutely no sense.” some years. The only way that gets managed is on a water- 1330 shed level, and that happens with local information, local So the question is, if the government was taking con- science, and with the guidance and oversight of local sultation seriously or had taken the opportunity to put this governments. I know that our partners in municipal in the Environmental Bill of Rights, do you think this government rely on those resources very heavily. If the would have improved the legislation or would have led conservation authorities aren’t empowered and authorized them to not include it in the first place? to discharge that duty then, frankly, it’s not going to Mr. Terry Rees: The environmental registry has been happen. It’s going to be more expensive and it’s going to in place since the early 1990s. It provides a forum for put our communities more at risk. people of agencies, municipalities and the public in gener- al to weigh in on decisions and provide—these are very Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you for that. I want to focus complex issues. These are things that are going to be our on that area of the impact that this will have on com- kids’ and grandkids’ costs. I think that platform affords the munities. We know municipalities across the province, kind of consultation input and sophisticated input that will pre-COVID, were struggling with their infrastructure help the government achieve some of the longer-term deficits. I’ve seen shoreline erosion, bridge washouts, road goals, including fiscally managing ourselves appropriate- washouts, and these have huge economic consequences. ly. Because if we don’t look at this stuff in a serious, And that was before we hit this instance where we’re complex and comprehensive way, then we’re going to seeing this mandate of conservation authorities to protect have expeditious decisions that, in the long term, cost us infrastructure and property eroded. more. Can you talk a little bit about how this will impact Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you. In the short time we have residential taxpayers? Essentially, these costs will be left, are you familiar with the ministerial zoning orders borne by municipalities. How will it impact residential that are taking place across the province that also short- taxpayers? And also insurance companies—will some of circuit the good planning and land use planning that you your members struggle to find insurance coverage, or talked about? affordable insurance coverage, if these protections are Mr. Terry Rees: I believe the MZOs maybe fall into taken away? the same category of giving, in schedule 6, ministerial Mr. Terry Rees: That’s a great question. I’m not an authority which both tromps on local decision-making and environmentalist; I’m an economist by formal training. also— We can’t afford not to be planning ahead and having the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. kind of proactive planning on managing our natural assets, Mr. Terry Rees: —does not take into account some of our natural heritage and our natural infrastructure in a the technical and sophisticated local information that’s responsible way. We know that insurance costs and claims important to consider. have gone through the roof from flooding. Low and high Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you very much for your testi- water are an issue. We can’t afford to make decisions in mony. excluding the kind of watershed-based thought process Mr. Terry Rees: Thank you. that conservation authorities apply. As a residential The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’ll move to the property taxpayer, I’m very much concerned about what independent members now. MPP Hunter. our long-term costs are of not protecting our infrastructure Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I want to thank all of the present- and our private property appropriately. ers today for your testimony. I wondered if I could start Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you for that. You did mention with the conversation with the career colleges around the obligation this government has under the Environ- Second Career. That was something that you mentioned. mental Bill of Rights. You will know—or if you don’t It was brought in by the former government with the know—the Auditor General just released a scathing report recovery from the recession.

F-3114 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 I’m wondering about what we’re experiencing right in training personal support workers. In our few seconds now and if you believe that greater investment in programs remaining, maybe you can talk about why you believe that like Second Career is needed to help people transition as is essential, that we ramp that up now, even ahead of the they are facing many, many changes when it comes to the funding for the four hours of average care, because it will labour market, specifically for women and for those who take time to train people to fill those positions. have been hardest impacted by the recession in terms of Mr. Chris Conway: That’s an excellent question. As I employment loss. That includes Black, Indigenous and mentioned, we’re the largest trainer of PSWs in Ontario. people of colour. I know that we’re starting to track some As a result of what I mentioned earlier about our demo- of those trends through Stats Canada data. graphic, our students tend to stay in PSW roles when they I wanted you to speak to the need for greater invest- take it on. They’re often, in some cases, foreign-trained ments in skills training as part of the economic recovery medical professionals. Take a foreign-trained nurse, for planning. example: They’re people who want to work in roles like Mr. Chris Conway: Thank you very much for the this— question. I really appreciate it. We think it’s absolutely The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I essential. The advantage with programs like Second apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. Career is that they’re already in place. One of the things We’ll move to the opposition now for their second we said to the government was rather than trying to round. MPP Arthur. reinvent the wheel, it would be better to take existing Mr. Ian Arthur: Mr. Rees, I’m going to begin ques- programs and ensure that they’re functioning correctly and tioning with you. You are yet another voice in opposition adequately so that we can get people into these programs to schedule 6. I think it bears noting that it spans every and get them retrained. possible sector in Ontario right now: criticism from the I might have mentioned in my presentation that what Ontario Federation of Agriculture, from the Association of we’re seeing in the last four months in particular—because Municipalities of Ontario, from countless environmental we process OSAP applications through our office—is that organizations and now from a property owners’ associa- we’re at over 20%, and in some cases 25%, above record tion, which is what you represent. levels of registration. We believe that this is what’s start- I thought your presentation was fantastic. It was very ing to happen: People are being displaced due to COVID. clear, it was concise and it brought very excellent points. They’re looking for options. In many cases, you take Given how widespread the opposition to this is, what someone who is working in a retail role or a front-line role would be a better way of going about this? You began and they’ve been affected by this. They may not, for talking about it a little bit: being a willing partner with various reasons, be going back to university to train. They conservation authorities, the scope of what they do and want something short-term, under one year. In many cases, how important they are to the properties that you some of these programs have nearly 100% job placement. represent. How should we look at reviews of conservation So they’re going in and looking at something that they can authorities if it does need to be done? get done fairly quickly, that’s close to home, and get back Mr. Terry Rees: I think there is important work to be out in the workforce. done on a lot of important provincial objectives we want We think those types of programs that provide support to collectively be sure that we’re managing in a prudent for people going back to work—as I mentioned, 70% of way, including managing for water quantity and quality. our students are women, 50% are new Canadians. We Flooding has been an emerging concern, not just for big think it’s absolutely crucial for providing support for these municipalities but for rural areas and landowners as well. people who are probably the hardest hit by COVID. The conservation authorities work for two different As I mentioned, our students are often referred to as the ministries and, I think, should be engaged in a productive, invisible sector, because people tend to confuse us with collaborative-type dialogue, which I’m not sure has community college students and so on. It’s a very different happened over the last 18 months or so, about how we’re demographic. It’s a group that’s highly susceptible to these going to deliver against our collective interest. Provincial types of economic shifts. What we’re seeing now is people policy statements set a lot of objectives. The Clean Water are already electing to do this training. It would be great to Act sets a lot of objectives. Managing for hazard lands— provide them with as much support as possible to get them they’re all very important, broad public objectives that back in the workforce in meaningful roles that will we’re trying to deliver. CAs are uniquely positioned to do continue to provide them with a source of income and a that. career going forward. If the senior level of government would like to do that The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. in a more effective or a slightly different way, that’s a Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I really appreciate that explana- matter for those folks to work on in a collaborative way tion. I think it’s very important that the government hear together and do that in a collaborative manner, so that we about some of the proactive ways in which they can can work through some of the issues. Unfortunately, I expand existing programs to meet the scale of the need think doing this expeditiously, as this is intended to do right now. through this budget bill, may not have considered all of the One of the areas that has high, high need is in long-term wrinkles that it implicates for delivering against important care. You did speak about the contributions that you make public goals. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3115 Mr. Ian Arthur: I hope government MPPs are listen- officials and employees and, honestly, the MPPs sitting at ing. Huge swaths of cottage country are in Conservative Queen’s Park, they’re trying to present their local issues. ridings, and the folks who are going to be voting on that The local authorities know it better than the ministry are in Conservative ridings, so I hope that is noted. officials who are in their ministry offices. Second question: Will that $1,000 rebate for stay- Mr. Ian Arthur: I think that’s really important, cations have any sort of meaningful impact if there’s large- because yesterday there was a point raised by one of the scale flooding in cottages across Ontario? government MPPs— Mr. Terry Rees: Again, our focus here today has been The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. on schedule 6. We’ve got some very serious concerns that Mr. Ian Arthur: —which singled out the percentage are front and top of mind, which are about how our lands of a conservation authority’s budget being focused on and our resources are going to be managed in the long flood management versus other activities. But flood man- term. That has been the focus of our interests here today, agement and the operations of one conservation authority, and our ongoing and abiding interest as an organization is like you said, are very different. The soil erosion that’s the stewardship of our lands and our waters in a happening in Essex is not the same as the flooding hap- sustainable way for the long term. pening along the Ottawa River. If you were running a Supporting our local economies is very important to us. province-wide business and you tried to address problems Certainly, it’s something that’s always front and top of in different parts of the province with the same universal mind for our local communities. We pay most of the taxes outcome, no one would recommend doing that. No one as residential property taxpayers in rural Ontario, so we’re would mandate that a percentage of the budget had to go always mindful of the fact that a thriving commercial to, for instance, rent, which changes from city to city to sector is important. I’m not certain, to be fair, whether this city across Ontario, so a bit of a false thing. scheme that’s been proposed around staycationing is going What are some of the consequences if this goes to be effective or not, but we would be supportive of through? We politicize the process. We have a top-down, supporting local. We do that on a regular basis. mandated approach. We severely limit the scope of what a 1340 conservation authority is allowed to do. What are going to Mr. Ian Arthur: Honestly, I think you said it best in be the repercussions of this? Ms. Andreae first, and then if the first sentence, which is that you came here to talk about there’s a bit— schedule 6 of this bill, not a tax rebate program that the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. Sorry government might be instituting on the side. to cut you off. The time has come up. I’m going to move over to you, Ms. Andreae. You We’ll go back to the independent members for their mentioned again the scope and the lack of boundaries. second round. MPP Hunter. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Perhaps I could start my second Mr. Ian Arthur: This point has been made before, but round with Mr. Rees. In terms of the risks that you see for I think it’s really important to kind of hammer this home. schedule 6, if it goes through as written, what are the They have a unique perspective that cannot be replicated concerns? You and the members you represent are by any other existing institution in Ontario right now. Why stewards of our natural environment, and we want to see is it so important for us to respect that and to not come that protected for future generations. It’s not just about the with top-down redirection or top-down decisions for these here and now. Go ahead. agencies? Why is it important to maintain their independ- Mr. Terry Rees: Thank you for the question. For our ence and why is their scope unique here in Ontario? part, we try to encourage individual stewardship and that’s Ms. Muriel Andreae: I think it’s because the conserv- up to all of us to do our part on the lands. But we rely on ation authorities were formed on a watershed basis, so in the province and our municipal government, in particular, some cases they might even go across three counties and which is in charge of land use planning in our commun- might be represented at the board of directors at any one ities, to allow the right kinds of things to be built in the point in time. Although the individual counties might have right kinds of places. a difference of economic histories or agricultural manage- Again, conservation authorities have very local, specif- ment practices, when they come together over an issue ic information that ensures that when they’re providing such as the water quality and the water flow quantity and advice to planning decisions at the municipal level— quality, then I think they are all looking at the same issue. again, under the stewardship of their board, which are It’s because the boundaries are geographic rather than municipally appointed representatives—they take into political. That is really the strength of the authorities. account the important public priorities, which include Then you’ll have people who are living in that water- managing for hazard lands, managing for the protection of shed, which equally are very familiar with the local source water, so that they can make those kinds of landowners and the farming issues which are very specific informed decisions with the information that they have at to the soil of that region. And just as the cottages on Lake hand about their intake protection zones for drinking Huron aren’t the same as the ones on the Rideau, likewise water, for managing around hazard flows and in flood the soil and the drainage issues in Essex county are not the plains. Those are important decisions that contribute to the same as the ones in Lanark county. That’s why I think the long-term liveability and affordability of our commun- conservation authorities are local. The provincial ministry ities.

F-3116 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Do you believe that the authorities I will admit I’m a little bit surprised because we’ve had are working on fighting those very—you know, those are a few conversations about things, and one of the things that complex, multi-jurisdictional challenges. Do you think you had pointed out to me was that there was no ability to that they’re working well to do that now? appeal a conservation authority decision on something. Mr. Terry Rees: I think that you can’t tackle such When you talked to me about it, it was with respect to complex, multi-jurisdictional issues if you don’t look at adding docks and decks on some of those recreational things on a watershed basis, because the changing climate properties, that that could be denied to cottage owners and and just the over-building, or the continued building in our they had no appeal mechanism on it. So I will freely admit communities—I shouldn’t say over-building; we’re a I’m a little bit surprised in the change in direction from growing economy. Those things really need to be looked you on that. at in sophisticated and complicated ways, because the In your deposition earlier—I think it was when MPP issues are getting complicated. If we don’t look at things Arthur was discussing with you—you talked about having on a watershed basis, which includes across municipal- that local input more than what the province is giving. I’d ities, we’re going to miss out on important things, because like to point out that Cavan Monaghan, which is probably someone is downstream from somebody else, always. So less than 10 minutes from your house, have put forward a you have to manage the upstream if you’re going to motion in support of what we’re doing with schedule 6. So manage the whole system in a way that’s going to be I’m curious, with respect to all of the cottage owners that affordable and reasonable for all concerned. you represent—this is their secondary residence on it. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Even for me—my riding is Should the local municipalities not have some more say in Scarborough–Guildwood, which of course borders at the what goes on in their communities with their principal south on Lake Ontario and the Scarborough Bluffs. As residences? gorgeous as the bluffs are, the conservation authority is 1350 constantly doing efforts to mitigate the bluffs going into Mr. Terry Rees: Thanks, Dave. It’s nice to see you the lake. again, virtually, as everything is these days. I’d like to I’m wondering if I could just, with the time remaining, point out I don’t think we’ve reversed any sort of position, ask Muriel about the governance side of things and how and I regret that that might have been the message that you much more challenging it will become if schedule 6 is not had received. I think clarity and having clear rules about removed. what is permitted and why those kinds of things are permitted—in this case of land-use planning decisions and Ms. Muriel Andreae: I think it’s largely changing so conservation authorities weighing into those decisions, I many of the responsibilities of the authorities, to having think that’s based on keeping people out of harm’s way these specific to your municipality. If you’re only able to and building things that are going to be sustainable and not offer a specific program within the boundaries— be at risk from high water etc. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. Cavan Monaghan aside—it’s not one of our main Ms. Muriel Andreae: —in our case, of the city of jurisdictions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It might London, then what about the needs of Stratford or what be related to their relationship with their local conserva- about the needs of Ingersoll? The same would be in—I’m tion authority, and that’s their right to say so. sorry, I don’t know the Toronto area well. But in eastern Municipalities are represented under local conservation Ontario—I mean the issues along the lakefront and the St. authority boards; that’s the way they’re designed. That Lawrence River are very different from the ones in the means municipalities are at those decision-making tables, height of land in the Rideau Canal system. A lot of the so they’re not happening at the exclusion of municipal- programs would just not be happening, which is where I ities’ interests. In fact, they are the ones who are paying feel that the water quantity and quality will suffer. the freight. The vast majority of the freight for conserva- Also, the natural area management will suffer, and the tion authorities comes from the municipal levy. So I think, lands. The authorities own significant parcels of land in fact, that municipalities have very much a say, because across the province, and again, the management of that they are the board members of their respective conserva- land will—they’ll have to sell or close a lot of properties. tion authorities. I feel Ontario will suffer for not being able to appreciate Mr. Dave Smith: I’m going to switch and I’m going to and enjoy those parcels that are part of our green space and go over to Chris Conway, if I could, please. Thanks very have been protected historically. much, Terry. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: We heard from Indigenous com- Chris, I would think that with the micro-credentials that menters as well. They’re the original stewards of the land, we are putting significant investment in, this would be and great concern— tailor-made for your members. You’re able to pivot and The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I pull in market needs much more quickly than traditional apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. colleges and universities. Could you expand a little bit We’ll go back to the government for their second round. more for us on the value of micro-credentials and how you MPP Smith. see that as being a really good fit for some of your Mr. Dave Smith: Terry, it’s good to see you. It’s been members? a while since you’ve been into my office; COVID is one Mr. Chris Conway: Absolutely, thank you for that. of those challenges. Yes, we think we’re an ideal fit for that. We are geared 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3117 towards short-term training like this, and you very would be able to, and then on the Ottawa side, they accurately mentioned the ability to pivot quickly. Because wouldn’t. So it doesn’t make a lot of sense to have it in the these programs are very often—well, they’re market- current structure it’s in. driven, ultimately, so you can take a scenario where Mr. Dave Smith: I can’t agree with you more on that, someone completes a program, gets a job and they tell one and I’m going to take a northern development lens to it. I of their friends, “You should do this. I did this program know that with the mining industry right now—I’m the and just got employment.” parliamentary assistant to energy, northern development The micro-credentials are great because you can build and mines—we’re having a little bit of trouble getting on those, you can do a full credential. I think most of us some of the skilled labour up in mines, specifically when have seen them in the format of Coursera, edX. LinkedIn it comes to repairing some of the equipment up there. actually offers some as well. Again, the online piece is Those mining companies are very much looking for absolutely crucial for that, because that’s very convenient. people with a specific skill set to do that. It’s a great way to do that sort of training. We’re looking at bringing in immigrants to Ontario in But we are really geared towards that. We can pivot order to fill that skills gap that we currently have. I see quickly. We tend to focus on short-term training for your partners as being the perfect avenue for us where we people, and we have hundreds of programs available. We could have somebody who has that base level skill that we really think that this could be a great tool. In some cases, need, a desire to go to northern Ontario for some of these people might just do a couple of courses to get a micro- good-paying jobs, and give them the opportunity— credential and then they could build on that and potentially The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I do some type of more rigorous training around something apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. in a particular area. So we’re very keen on this. That concludes our time. Thank you to all three present- Mr. Dave Smith: Thank you. Mr. Chair, how much ers for coming and for your presentations. time do I have left? The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Two minutes and 30 seconds. WILDERNESS COMMITTEE Mr. Dave Smith: I’m going to stick with you then on this, Chris, as well. You had talked a little bit about some FILMONTARIO of the foreign students who don’t have the ability once DR. JENNIFER DRAKE they come out of your courses then to legally work in Ontario. I will freely admit, I’m not 100% sure on where The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Moving along to that falls. Is that a provincial jurisdictional issue, or is that our next group of presenters, first I would like to call upon something that we need to be going to the federal the Wilderness Committee. Please state your name for the government on and trying to find a way to get some of record, and you will have seven minutes for your these, for lack of a better term, potential immigrants who presentation. are being trained in our jurisdiction into the marketplace Ms. Katie Krelove: Thank you. My name is Katie where we need them here in Ontario? Krelove. I’m the Ontario campaigner for the Wilderness Mr. Chris Conway: That’s a great point. We’re Committee, a national registered charity that works for actually looking at it now to get more PSWs in. We’re people-powered protections for wilderness, wildlife and actually pitching that that may be a way to draw people public resources, with over 14,000 supporters in Ontario. into that field in particular where there’s a high demand I’m here today because the Wilderness Committee there right now, obviously. We do think it’s absolutely strongly objects to the proposals under schedule 8 in Bill crucial to get this, particularly given that they have it in 229 to permanently exempt forestry operations from legal Quebec for private institutions. So right now, it’s very prohibitions and protections under the Endangered much in Quebec’s favour. People are doing the training Species Act. We call for it to be removed. there and they’re not doing it in Ontario. We think, within The Wilderness Committee is also opposed to the the same country—they obviously have a separate proposals under schedule 6. We have read the submissions immigration agreement. by Environmental Defence, CELA and representatives It is partly federal, partly provincial. What we’re hoping from various conservation authorities, and would like to to get, and what we’ve been working on, is a recommen- register our support for the call for schedule 6 to be dation from the provincial government to the federal removed from Bill 229 as well. government that this should be looked at. We think there But today I will focus my comments on objections to are many areas where this could benefit vacancies in high- schedule 8. I know you’ve heard from several other demand areas. I mentioned PSWs as one, but there are organizations with arguments against the proposals in others. schedule 8, so I hope my arguments will be considered in Again, it just seems very unfair that Quebec is able to conjunction with those, and not as comprehensive. offer this—I know why they’re able to do it—but that Schedule 8, if enacted, would represent a failure to Ontario is not. Particularly, when you think about fulfill the original intent of 12 years of temporary someone who lives in Ottawa, someone who is across the exemptions for forestry operations from the ESA, which water in Gatineau would be able to do this, or a school was to find resolution between the two mandates. When

F-3118 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 the ESA was brought into force in 2008, forestry oper- constantly come up against economic priorities and there ations authorized under the Crown Forest Sustainability is consequentially limited incentive to invest resources Act were granted a temporary exemption, to allow time for into the identification of species at risk populations and industry to transition practices to meet the new legal habitats. mandates for protection and recovery enshrined in the In addition, the only evaluation of forestry objectives to ESA given that the CFSA mandate to minimize harm to maintain habitat for species at risk is a measure of basic species at risk did not do so. Indeed, the reforms made to non-compliance or compliance, as determined by inspec- the ESA in 2007 were required because efforts to mini- tions by MNRF. Unfortunately, we have read multiple mize harm to at-risk species across many land uses, independent audit reports that identify ineffective including forest operations, have been unsuccessful, processes for the identification of areas of concern or resulting in alarming threats to biodiversity. species at risk habitat and instances where compliance Subsequent extensions to the exemption granted in inspections come too late to actually achieve protection or 2013 and 2018 cited the complexity of the transition even minimization of harm. endeavour as well as ongoing consultations with stake- Schedule 8, if enacted, would be a blow to attempts to holders as the reasons for further temporary exemption. halt the decline of forest-dependent species, even though Schedule 8’s proposal to permanently exempt forestry this is precisely the issue which ought to garner the from legal protections for endangered species, and from government’s urgent and utmost attention. The Auditor the prohibitions against killing and destroying species at General’s recent 2020 report notes, “Biodiversity loss has risk and their habitat, offers nothing to demonstrate been ranked as a top-five risk—by likelihood and im- achievement of the intent to close the gap or resolve the pact—to economies over the next decade.” conflicts between the two mandates. No comprehensive The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. summary of 12 years of consultation or other evidence is Ms. Katie Krelove: If Ontario’s forestry industry presented to justify the permanent exemption. It appears cannot find a way to reconcile ESA mandates into prac- to be an abandonment of those efforts rather than a resolu- tice, then it will lose credibility as a sustainable industry tion and, as such, represents a waste of 12 years of time and therefore risk economic losses. As long as forest- and public resources. dependent species such as woodland caribou, wood turtle, Perhaps even more alarmingly, schedule 8 proposes to Blanding’s turtle and songbirds continue to decline, remove the ability of the Minister of the Environment, Ontario’s reputation for sustainable forestry will continue Conservation and Parks to issue orders in circumstances to be challenged. where there is imminent danger to an at-risk species. This, The Wilderness Committee’s recommendation is that along with the recent exemption for forestry from the schedule 8 be withdrawn from Bill 229 and Ontario province’s Environmental Assessment Act, would remove recommit, with clear timelines and a transparent process, the last-resort tools for public intervention in forestry to the original goals of reconciliation between the ESA and operations when and where species at risk are threatened. CFSA mandates regarding species at risk protection and 1400 recovery. Thank you for your time. As I have alluded to and as you have heard from other The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. organizations, the claim used to justify schedule 8, that of Our next presenter is FilmOntario. Please state your removing duplication between the ESA and the CFSA name for the record, and you can get right into your legislation, is unfounded. The requirements under the presentation. CFSA to mitigate harm to species at risk are not equivalent Ms. Cynthia Lynch: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair to protections and recovery provisions under the ESA and and members of the committee. I’m Cynthia Lynch, man- cannot replace them. aging director at FilmOntario, an industry association The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. representing the province’s film and television sector, Ms. Katie Krelove: I’ll refer you back to the chart including unions, production companies, equipment sup- submitted by the Wildlands League to demonstrate the pliers and studios. Our members create their own fundamental differences between the two acts rather than intellectual property for TV and movie screens around the repeating them here. Instead, I will offer just a couple of world and work on the best foreign productions that examples from the Wilderness Committee’s experience choose to bring their shows to Ontario. participating as a stakeholder in public consultation on Prior to the pandemic, the film and television industry forest management plans that I hope help to illustrate, on in Ontario was thriving, generating almost $2.2 billion in some small scale, some ways in which the current man- direct spending in 2019 and supporting almost 45,000 dates under the CFSA fail to meet ESA standards for jobs. When nearly all industry activity stopped in mid- protection and recovery. March, the majority of those jobs were put on hold. We In my experience reading through proposed long-term estimate that the first three and a half months of the management directions undertaken by sustainable forestry production shutdown cost the industry over $700 million. licence holders under CFSA requirements, the identifica- Over to Scott Garvie. tion of areas of concern—that is, species at risk habitats— Mr. Scott Garvie: [Inaudible] film production com- is often referred to as a potential risk to forest management pany in Toronto that creates shows like Murdoch objectives in so much as they are a constraint on timber Mysteries, Departure and Hudson & Rex. I’m also the past harvesting. Provisions for a species at risk under the CFSA chair of the Canadian Media Producers Association, the 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3119 national organization representing independent production returned to work. Performers, some of the most exposed companies in Canada. as they appear on camera without PPE, report that they feel Since the summer, the industry has returned to work totally safe on set. with rigorous health and safety standards in place. We’re We’re very proud of how the industry has come togeth- optimistic that we will be able to return to the prior levels er, and we are grateful that the government has recognized of spending and employment as quickly as possible. In the success of the protocols by permitting the industry to fact, the very nature of our production industry allows us continue working throughout the province. Keeping our to pivot and ramp up production rapidly once it is safe to workplaces and communities safe while employing do so. And that’s the important thing: It has to be safe to thousands of film and television workers is our number do so. one priority, but it is also expensive. The government’s commitment to stable and effective Back to Scott. tax credits is a much-appreciated and essential piece of Mr. Scott Garvie: Health and safety protocols vary maintaining Ontario’s position as a competitive jurisdic- depending on the needs of each production, but on a tion for film and television production for both the dramatic Canadian show like Murdoch Mysteries, it can domestic and the service production parts of the sector. range between 3% and 5% of a production’s budget, or The tax credits that the government has kindly provided around $750,000 to $1 million per season. On some are a very important business tool, driving production to higher-budgeted US studio shows, we understand that this province. direct health and safety costs can be as high as $1 million The fall 2020 budget contains regulatory changes to per episode. Since our planning timelines are so long in both the Ontario Film and Television Tax Credit and the advance, these costs were not included in the financing or Ontario Production Services Tax Credit that allow for budgets for current shows that have been delayed in 2020 longer time frames to meet certain eligibility milestones. or are slated to start in early 2021, forcing producers to This is an important acknowledgement that the pandemic either find new sources of financing, which unfortunately has made it much more difficult for producers to meet the is usually producers having to invest their fees, or having usual production and delivery timelines for our shows. to cut back in other areas of production, such as reducing That acknowledgement was part of a suite of changes that shooting days, impacting the production values of the FilmOntario proposed in our budget submission. We show. support these changes, and we hope that they are only the While all productions faced increased costs, the impact first step in the government’s plan to provide relief for is felt the most by domestic production and those with some of the disruptive impact of COVID-19 on the film smaller budgets, which are generally produced by SME and television industries. companies. In Ontario, we have always been very proud Ms. Sue Milling: Thank you. Hi, I’m Sue Milling. I’m that our industry is almost evenly split between domestic the executive director of ACTRA Toronto, the union production by Ontario-based content creators and foreign representing 15,000 performers in the film, television and companies that could choose our province for their digital media industry across Ontario. I’m also the co-chair productions. We at FilmOntario often refer to the robust of the FilmOntario board of directors. ecosystem in Ontario that benefits the combination of As Scott said, the much-appreciated commitment to domestic and service work. stability of tax credits is key to our continued competitive- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. ness. The industry, in turn, wanted to ensure that coming Mr. Scott Garvie: It builds our infrastructure and out of this pandemic, Ontario would be able to offer provides jobs across that slate of production. Our maxim stability and the safest production environment possible. has always been to do no harm to either production stream, So we got to work together. as both are integral to continue to build this province’s Through the Section 21 Film and Television Health and capacity and scale. We truly hope that one of the next steps Safety Advisory Committee, which includes representa- of the government’s plan for recovery will ensure that all tion from industry and the Ministry of Labour, we parts of this ecosystem have an equal opportunity to developed a comprehensive set of guidelines to provide participate in that recovery. best practices for a safe return to work. Implementing We are proposing that the government provide support these guidelines has meant instituting things like daily for these new health and safety protocol costs through an screening and regular COVID-19 testing, organizing the enhancement amendment to the current film and television workplace in pods to limit interactions and facilitate tax credits. Some of these health and safety costs are physical distancing, the use of PPE when physical dis- already eligible costs in one or the other of the tax credits, tancing isn’t possible, limiting the use of shared equip- but there is a complete disconnect, and labour and PPE ment, enhanced cleaning procedures and new practices for costs are not both eligible under the current regime. We hair, makeup and costumes. would ask that the province consider making this treat- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. ment consistent across both credits, so that domestic and Ms. Sue Milling: There is training for everyone on set foreign producers receive the same treatment and these and designated personnel to ensure protocols are followed. vital health and safety costs are partly financed by this These protocols are working. There has not been a province due to a very effective tax credit mechanism that single instance of COVID-19 transmission on set since we we have in place.

F-3120 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 1410 CAs from full and independent participation on planning We would also ask that the province consider increas- appeals will result in poorer planning decisions that are ing the tax credit rate associated with— uninformed of local watershed levels, science and know- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so ledge. much. I apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. Similarly, authorizing the Minister of Natural Re- We’ll move to our next presenter, Jennifer Drake. sources and Forestry to issue an order to take over or Please state your name for the record, and you will have decide an application or a permit in place of a CA, or seven minutes for your presentation. allowing applicants to request the minister to review the Dr. Jennifer Drake: Hello, my name is Jennifer Drake. CA’s decision, nullifies the authority of the CA, again Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to preventing them from fulfilling their core mandate. speak. I’m here regarding schedule 6 and the amendments I suspect it will also ultimately slow down development to the Conservation Authorities Act and the Planning Act. growth as the approval process becomes more litigious I trust the committee has reviewed my written sub- and less collaborative. The long-term consequences of mission, but briefly, I am an associate professor in the these poor planning and permitting decisions will be more department of civil and mineral engineering at the Ontarians living and working at risk to both flooding and University of Toronto. I am an expert in water resources natural hazards. engineering, urban flooding and green infrastructure. I I’ll remind the committee that water resource systems grew up along the Mississippi River in Carleton Place, are actually water and land. Land changes whenever Lanark county, and I’m proud to have completed all of my urbanization, agricultural development, forest fires, academic training here in Ontario at McMaster and hydrotechnical projects and natural resource development Guelph. alter the water cycle and flow path within a watershed. My research group has developed regional flood When land changes are poorly executed, they exacerbate equations for the Ministry of Transportation. We study existing or even create new hazards associated with our things like the behaviour of permeable pavements in watercourses, river valleys, water bodies and shorelines. winter and develop new, greener technologies for the Forward-thinking public policy has a great capacity— Toronto climate. I also teach water resource engineering, The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. stormwater design, flood plain mapping, hydrology and Dr. Jennifer Drake: —to create new economies, drive hydraulics. innovation and generally improve our society. The CA act While preparing for this meeting, I tried to look up how is a shining example of this. It is the best example of many Ontario residents live in special policy areas. I didn’t enacted, integrated water resource management that I’m have a lot of time, so I wasn’t able to find the number, but aware of in the world, and I tell my students this every I don’t think we actually know. If we do, it is certainly not year. Ontario is a leader in living infrastructure and green well communicated by MNRF. I know that TRCA, the infrastructure. We boast the third-largest green roof Toronto region, has 15 SPAs, and I believe there are 60 industry right here in Toronto. Science-driven technical province-wide. In the Toronto region alone, over 40,000 documents produced by our CAs are used nationally by people live in a flood-vulnerable community. How many experts like myself and even internationally. Ontario residents live and work in high-risk flood zones? Integrated water resource management is universally How many First Nations communities also live in flood accepted as the most efficient, equitable and sustainable areas? And, more pressingly, how much do we spend as means of developing and managing our limited water taxpayers annually on disaster assistance, infrastructure resources, ensuring a maximum benefit to our economy, replacements, upgrades etc. to make these communities society and environment. Development objectives for our safe? province’s water resources cannot be achieved without Special policy areas are communities that predate the enabling environments, institutional structures and man- CA act. These are communities that were established long agement instruments, like enforcement. CAs, empowered before we had strong planning policy, land-based water by the government, have done this for almost 70 years, and resource management and local, science-driven decision- schedule 6 in its current form undermines it. making. They do not have the benefit of good planning and We regularly hear about exciting, stimulus-spending, regulated development, and we as a society are left with job-creating, big, engineered solutions to address flooding the cost. in Ontario: the new mouth of the Don River, the new It is my recommendation that the government’s plan- bridge on Jane Street for Rockcliffe, the Brampton ning, permitting and enforcement provisions of schedule 6 Riverwalk, the Coxwell bypass. I’m a civil engineer; these be removed from Bill 229 or immediately amended to are amazing and they’re all great and they address long- address the numerous concerns that have been raised by standing flooding issues, but we lose sight of the fact that members of the public, like myself, a growing list of rural this investment, billions of dollars, could be avoided and urban municipalities, and Conservation Ontario. entirely. With science-informed, watershed-based deci- These amendments, if passed as is, will drastically sions and strong enforcement, we can avoid these costs inhibit conservation authorities’ ability to deliver on our entirely by ensuring our communities of tomorrow leave core mandate of protecting Ontario residents and property space for flood waters and hazards. To do this, CAs need from flooding and natural hazards. Limiting or removing strong policy that allows for inclusive government; 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3121 science-informed, watershed-based planning and permit- sustainable products. Again, this just undermines our ting; and strong enforcement. credibility for sustainable forestry. Thank you very much for your attention and, again, the Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I appreciate that. opportunity to speak. I do have questions for Jennifer regarding—you talked The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so about living in flood zones. The only reason we can live in much. flood zones is because of the work of the conservation We’ll start with the questions now. I will start the first authorities. Would you agree with that? round of questions with the independent members. MPP Dr. Jennifer Drake: Yes, absolutely. Conservation Hunter. authorities’ role in terms of flood preparation and flood Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I do want to thank all of the forecasting and emergency warning is critical for making presenters. You definitely have researched your presenta- these communities safe and allowing them— tions. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so much. Sorry to cut you off. The time has come up. I’d like to start maybe with the Wilderness Committee. We’ll move to the government side now. MPP Roberts. If Katie could tell us, what are the consequences if sched- Mr. Jeremy Roberts: Thank you to all of our present- ule 8 goes forward? What are the risks to the province? ers today. Ms. Katie Krelove: The risks are to biodiversity in My question is going to be for our team from Ontario. They need to be considered within a larger picture FilmOntario. Thank you so much for being with us today. of this government’s actions to remove environmental I have the privilege of representing a riding in Ottawa, regulations, including the exemption for forestry from the where of course we have a burgeoning film industry. I’ve Environmental Assessment Act. That removes had the pleasure to connect with a number of them, who opportunities for the public to ask for an independent testified as part of our finance committee hearings over the environmental assessment for a particular forest. Changes summer about how we can best position ourselves for to the Endangered Species Act allow for pay-to-slay recovery. options, where instead of actually protecting and I think that when we talk about this budget, we always recovering species habitat, industry can pay into a vague talk about the three pillars in this budget. There was pro- conservation fund. tecting our health care, supporting our individuals and The Auditor General’s recent report on the state of the businesses, and laying the foundation for recovery. I think environment, put out just a couple of weeks ago, pointed the film industry falls into two of those buckets: the sup- to drastic problems within the ministries charged with port of our businesses, making sure that the film industry taking care of endangered species in the province. It has the tools and resources necessary to get through these pointed to a lack of staff, a lack of funding, a lack of difficult times, but then when we talk about recovery, I process for monitoring and tracking those species. think it’s the piece on how we can continue to grow our Schedule 8, on top of all of those other things, just film industry in Ontario and allow it to continue to flourish demonstrates a lack of commitment to our legal commit- and grow in the years to come. ments under the ESA that require protection and recovery I’ve got a couple of questions for you. The first is, I just for Ontario’s endangered species. We’re seeing those want to touch on the $25 million in the budget for species decline. The Auditor General has also pointed out Ontario’s arts institutions to help them cover operating that they’re still declining, and the world is in a losses incurred as a result of COVID-19 and, on top of biodiversity crisis. Ontario needs to play its part, and it’s that, the flexibility in grants that’s being provided by the not. Ontario Arts Council and the Ontario Trillium Foundation As I mentioned as well, the consequence could be in terms of flexibility to grant recipients to allow them to impacts in the forestry industry’s economics, because help rebuild and reposition. Could you perhaps touch on more and more purchasers of forestry products are looking how these investments help your member organizations for that stamp of sustainability. during this pandemic and prepare for the day when they can fully reopen their facilities, which of course we all Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Thank you so much. It seems, on hope is a day soon to come? the heels of the Auditor General’s really harsh criticism, Thank you, MPP Roberts. Maybe that the government has not listened, not taken corrective Ms. Cynthia Lynch: I can start on that. Most of our members don’t actually action, and in fact is doubling down on an unfortunate lack benefit from Ontario Arts Council or Trillium Foundation of focus on endangered species and species at risk and grants. Most of our members have, if I can use the word, biodiversity. This schedule 8 clearly shows that. graduated from those programs. The Arts Council is a 1420 fabulous granting body for experimental film and people Ms. Katie Krelove: Yes, and it’s also taken in conjunc- who are starting out in the industry, maybe trying to make tion— a short film to get off the ground, but most of our members The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. have moved on to the bigger-budget shows and feature- Ms. Katie Krelove: —with the forest sector strategy of length films that are the kind of things that Scott does at this government, which proposes to double logging in the Shaftesbury. But I know that some active Toronto province and also proposes to tap into a market for those members sometimes benefit from arts council funding, so environmentally sensitive customers who are looking for maybe Sue can add some colour to that.

F-3122 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 Ms. Sue Milling: Thank you, Cynthia. It’s true; just at The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. a start-out level, the grants and the support from the Mr. Scott Garvie: —who can come in and are getting provincial government are very helpful. But I also want to trained on our sets with our various guilds, whether they recognize the work that Minister MacLeod has done want to be in front of or behind the camera. through the advisory committee through this pandemic in I think the only thing that will hold us back from bringing the industry partners together to talk about increasing the volumes in Ontario is the lack of in- recovery, to talk about some of the short-term and the frastructure once we hit certain amounts. We’ve spent a lot longer-term steps that will help in terms of growing the of time with the government in the last few years working business as well as recovering, because I think that that’s on studio space and making sure that we had that capacity obviously a priority for all of us. to do the shows when they come. I think the human re- Some of the recommendations that we’ve made through sources side is a really important one that we’re really the advisory committee, in addition to looking at a made- focused on at FilmOntario, to make sure that we’re giving in-Ontario insurance solution and covering some of the everybody a chance to train up and get involved in this health and safety costs that Scott Garvie spoke about in the industry. presentation, also include some targeted support for the Mr. Jeremy Roberts: That’s great. I know we have a domestic industry in terms of workforce development and phenomenal program. In fact, my father was a graduate of how we can increase the amount of diversity and inclusion the television and radio arts program at Algonquin, so we have in the industry, and the support that we can that’s a great program. provide through other regions like Ottawa and eastern Sorry, I see Sue. You want to jump in as well. Ontario as well as southwestern Ontario, which is turning The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you, MPP into quite a hub, as some of the live production pivots into Roberts. We’ll come back to you in the second round. that streaming recorded area. We’ll go to the opposition. MPP Arthur. So I think there is lots of work we can do, and we really Mr. Ian Arthur: Thank you to the presenters for look forward to working with Minister MacLeod and the coming in today. government on recovery, but also on building opportun- Ms. Drake, I’m going to start with you. One of the ities. interesting things that has come out of the pandemic is a The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. universal appreciation by almost everyone for experts in For sure. Pivoting a little bit, I Mr. Jeremy Roberts: their field, for listening to the science and for appreciating know one thing that we’ve heard about from folks in this what scientists actually contribute in terms of their areas industry before is making sure that we have the skilled of expertise. workers to be able to help produce and do all the incredible work that goes into a lot of these films. I’m fortunate; right You’re here today to say that you are an expert in the in the heart of my riding is Algonquin College. I’m won- area of flood management and that this is short-sighted dering if, perhaps, any of you might be able to touch a little legislation. bit on how we can work together, both through Minister Dr. Jennifer Drake: Yes, that’s correct. MacLeod’s ministry, but also the Ministry of Colleges and Mr. Ian Arthur: Okay— Universities and the ministry for training, to get people Dr. Jennifer Drake: Yes, our— trained to fill these gaps and make it all the more attractive Mr. Ian Arthur: Sorry. Yes, continue if you want to. for more filming opportunities to come here to Ontario. Dr. Jennifer Drake: I don’t think I have too much Ms. Cynthia Lynch: I will let Scott drill down on this, more to add. The main issue—there have been several but I would just say that you’ve described it perfectly, issues in the amendment they are currently presenting. But because another of the recommendations that came out of the removal of full and independent participation in Minister MacLeod’s advisory panel was to make sure that planning appeals and then the ability for a minister to some of those programs that training, colleges and supersede a decision that’s been informed based on universities and that the Ministry of Labour have for technical, science-driven and, in many cases, very expen- apprenticeships and training that haven’t traditionally sive and complicated and sophisticated hydro-technical been available to the film and television industry—and modelling is quite troubling. Scott can go into why, but we really would like to have our 1430 sector benefit from those industries and train the next Mr. Ian Arthur: And it is science-driven. I think that’s generation of film and TV workers. something that has been glossed over by the government Mr. Scott Garvie: Thanks, Cynthia. I think that’s a so far in this. They talk about the conflicts in relation to really good question and a good response. schedule 6 and the people who have problems with how We have an amount of capacity. We have the ability to conservation authorities were functioning, but really, they do a certain amount of scale. We’re looking to train and are there to execute expert advice in a detailed and diligent bring young people into this industry. We’re looking to manner. All I would say is I hope that the same apprecia- diversify the types of people who are coming into the tion is afforded to folks such as yourself and the other industry as well, so looking at giving everybody opportun- people in that area as is afforded to our health experts ities and transparency to hit a lot of the social targets. currently. It’s great work. It’s good work for people right out of I’m going to ask a quick question of FilmOntario. I did university or colleges— not know a lot about film in Canada coming into this job, 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3123 and it’s been a very interesting thing to learn a lot more forward to having Guillermo del Toro here, who I saw about. Kingston and the Islands, which is the riding I recently. It’s a very cool town, and he’s making it cooler. represent, has had a flourishing film industry in recent Also Murdoch Mysteries, you filmed at Queen’s Park years. That’s been absolutely fantastic. Some of my very about the Queen’s Park ghost. There are real stories about good friends have been extras in various shows that have the Queen’s Park ghost we can share another time. been filmed in Kingston and had a blast. Apart from that, Maybe if you can speak a little bit, in the time that we in terms of film as an economic driver, would you just talk have, about the impact of COVID on your members, a little bit about the growth potential of your industry in perhaps, that would be ensuing. People are out of work and Ontario? We will be coming out the other side of COVID people have lost hours, and they’re struggling to pay their in the next year. How much can you add to the growth of rent and so forth. We’d love to hear about the challenges this province moving forward if you are set up now to be that your members are facing with the challenges you’ve able to do that as we come out of the pandemic? been having in putting on productions and filming during Mr. Scott Garvie: Can I jump on that one? I think the this time. biggest issue that we have and that we’re laser-focused on Ms. Sue Milling: Early on in the pandemic, one of the is ensuring that there are health and safety protocols so that first things that FilmOntario did was an assessment of people can come to work and people can be safe. As Sue what the impact of COVID was across the industry. As mentioned in her opening comments, we’ve been very Cynthia was saying, it was huge, and Minister MacLeod lucky—I don’t think it’s that lucky; I think it’s really the has talked about that sort of triple impact in terms of the hard work everyone has put in to making sure that we can bottom line as well. be safe. I think as long as people are safe, they will come For performers, they’re the most precarious workers, I to work. will say, in the industry. They go from gig to gig. Unlike We have a huge capacity and we have shows coming— some of our technicians behind the camera, they don’t my company alone has done five one-hour shows since have that full year or full run of the show, when it comes June. We actually shot in Kingston—I think that was last to employment. We worked very hard with FilmOntario year—Murdoch Mysteries. We were lucky enough to have and our government partners to make sure that there were insurance in place, and we worked really hard on the supports in place for people in this gig economy, and we health and safety protocols. Once we got those down, we very much appreciate the work that this government did, could start production up. with the federal government, to make sure that that safety I think there’s a huge amount of work that can be done. net was in place. We always count Toronto and Ontario among the leaders The other thing we did was, we said it’s so important in production, with New York, Los Angeles. We believe for us to recover as quickly as we can and so we came that Toronto has the ability, has the skilled workforce, has together with industry partners to develop health and the infrastructure to actually get up to the number one, safety protocols. Implementing those has required a kind number two behind Los Angeles. We’ve been given great of social contract— business tools by the province that help, with the tax The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I credits. apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. We’ll move back to the government side. MPP Mr. Scott Garvie: That gives people incentive to come Thanigasalam. shoot here rather than somewhere else. Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Good afternoon, everyone. I think that once we get through to the other side—even Thank you to all our presenters today. with the pandemic, we’re able to get back to very close to I would like to start by asking a question to the where we were on our production levels. We think there’s presenters from FilmOntario. I think Sue wanted to a lot of growth to be done, and we have a lot of people comment on something as well, so maybe I’ll start with investing a lot of money in Ontario for studios and her. In terms of the film industry [inaudible] what eco- equipment who also believe the same thing. In our mind, nomic and operational impacts will that have for the film it’s a really good news story. It’s youth, training, exports. industry here in Ontario, and what concerns or risks does At my company, we deal with Canadian content stories. it raise for the workers in the film industry? That’s my We’re also aware of the culture flag telling Canadian question to the film industry, but I think Sue wanted to stories, so people can be aspirational looking at our stories comment on something my colleague asked previously, so rather than just foreign stories. I’ll start with her. Mr. Ian Arthur: That’s very cool. That’s all the ques- Ms. Sue Milling: I just think that one of the ways for tions I have, Chair. I’m not sure if MPP Shaw— us to recover is the assistance that we’ve been talking The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Any further about in terms of the health and safety cost that produc- questions, MPP Shaw? Two minutes. tions have and the work that we can do in enhancing the Ms. Sandy Shaw: What is the time left, Chair? tax credits. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Two minutes. I think the other thing that Scott referred to were some Ms. Sandy Shaw: I’ll just follow up with FilmOntario. of the business tools that this government has provided, Everyone wants to compete on how much filming happens and I just want to give some credit to Ontario Creates and in their riding. I represent Hamilton, so we’re looking the work that they do with the government in helping to

F-3124 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 promote the industry, because that helps us to grow. So My next question is to the Wilderness Committee. just in terms of where we can go and attracting people into Katie, thank you for your presentation. In terms of your this industry and to help it to be competitive globally, it presentation, I want to just highlight a couple of things. takes a lot of work, and we very much appreciate the work The government has recently announced several invest- that’s being done by Ontario Creates and the government ments that aim to preserve Ontario’s natural spaces and to do that. protect our environment, including our investments in new I think I’ll leave that there. Cynthia, if you want to pick and innovative waste water and stormwater programs, that up? such as $15 million over two years to improve the Ms. Cynthia Lynch: I had a little bit of interference at management of Lake Ontario waste water discharge, $10 the beginning of the question, but I think that you were million to provide support for waste water monitoring and asking about the financial impacts of the shutdown and public reporting to improve transparency and $7.5 million how that affected people. As we said, we looked at the to contribute to the health of Great Lakes watersheds. dollar costs right at the beginning. The first three and a half Can you please explain how these investments could months resulted in a $700-million spending loss by the contribute to protecting the wildlife in our lakes? industry, and almost all the 45,000 workers in the province Ms. Katie Krelove: Certainly any efforts to clean were out of work at that time. Production levels now are water and to build up natural infrastructure on our Great returning, but as Scott mentioned, it’s much more Lakes and our watersheds is going to contribute to the expensive just to produce a single hour of television now, health of the species dependent on those. not to mention feature films. I think what the Ontario government needs to do is The other barrier that’s preventing some of our domes- invest the same in protecting land-based and forest-based tic producers from getting back to work, particularly our species as well, by investing in resources— domestic producers, is the lack of an insurance solution The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. and their inability to obtain production insurance that Ms. Katie Krelove: —for the Ministries of the En- would protect them in the event of another COVID vironment and Natural Resources to have the ability to do shutdown. The federal government has put in place a that monitoring and do that identification of species at risk temporary measure to assist with addressing this that habitat on the land as well. We know that there are at least expires at the end of March. Unless that’s extended or 50 different species at risk that are forestry-dependent in unless that’s enhanced and supplemented by the province, this province of the more than 2,000 endangered species we’ll be right back where we were in July when many of on the species at risk list. So I think you can’t just look at those productions couldn’t get back up and running. So those are just a few of the things, and I think that, the water and ignore the land. You’ve got to do both if we again, to emphasize what Scott said, it’s the extreme really want to meet commitments to protecting endangered expense of our very effective health and safety measures. species. Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Thank you, Cynthia. I I would say another investment that the Auditor think, Scott, you have to unmute yourself. General has shone a light on that is lacking is investment 1440 in increasing Ontario’s protected places. Ontario is falling Mr. Scott Garvie: I think it’s really important to stress behind all the other provinces, and Canada as a whole, in that there’s a high level of anxiety in our society now commitments to add to protected areas, which do contrib- because of the pandemic. We’ve been working hard with ute to the safety and protection of endangered species— all the guilds and all the stakeholders to try to show that The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so we are taking these things really seriously. We’re doing a much. Sorry to cut you off. The time has come up. lot of wellness, anti-harassment and educational things on We’ll move to the opposition side now. MPP Shaw. set so people understand how—as Sue mentioned, a social Ms. Sandy Shaw: I don’t have time to do another contract—we’re only going to be as safe as people taking round of questioning for FilmOntario, but what I would these things seriously. If you’re reckless and bring it onto like to say is we hear and we support your calls for our set, then we’re going to have to shut down. additional support for costs—what you’re doing respon- One of the things about the ask that we have about sibly—to keep your productions safe. We know that it’s increasing the tax credit to help cover some of these costs expensive. I will tell you, for example, small businesses in is we don’t want people skimping on health and safety my riding have been offered $1,000 by this government because they can’t afford it. So if there is a way the for cleaning and PPE. One small business in my riding, it government can come in and help out to make sure that we cost him $4,000 for one thorough cleaning. So we are doing as much as we can and connecting the health and understand the costs. We understand that you’re doing safety, then we’re going to have people working, which is everything that you can to be responsible. The government a good thing, and we’ll have people less stressed and less has billions and billions of dollars in contingency funding anxious, as much as you can be during a pandemic. We that they’re sitting on, and we think that they should be have found the anxiety level really high on our sets, and putting it into the field to support responsible operators we’ve been trying to find as many ways as possible to like yourself, to keep people safe. So that’s my commen- reduce the tension. tary. If there was longer, we could talk some more. Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Thank you, Scott, Cynthia Now I want to direct my questioning, if I could, to— and Sue. I’m going to start with Jennifer. You talked about all the 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3125 people who are speaking out against schedule 6. I have to Ms. Sandy Shaw: That’s right. say whoever asked for this, whoever supported it is not Dr. Jennifer Drake: The purpose of conservation showing up, because almost 100% of the people—99% of authorities is making sure that our resources are used to the people—who have come to this committee have been maximize our society and our people. speaking out against schedule 6. The outrage is incredible. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. I had a virtual town hall in my riding of Hamilton and Dr. Jennifer Drake: That involves protecting them, 1,000 people joined, which is a phenomenal amount of keeping them safe and making sure the resources are people who could have just spent their evening binge- available for essential services as well as for economic watching Murdoch Mysteries, for example, instead of services. You can’t manufacture a single item without being there. People are outraged by this. water as a source product. Balancing these conflicting You said that it is something that just continues to needs is what a conservation authority does. weaken environmental protections. To us, it’s a pro- Ms. Sandy Shaw: I couldn’t agree with you more. developer, anti-environment measure. We’ve seen from “Water is life” is something that everyone is starting to this government—this government has tried to open up the understand. It’s not just our water protectors and our greenbelt not once but twice. This would be the third time. Indigenous communities; we all understand that. Conservation authorities do all kinds of things that I’m going to turn now to Katie. You brought up the you’ve described: protecting the environment, flooding Auditor General’s report. It was a scathing report that this and all those types of things. What I want to pick up on— government has failed not only in the area of protecting here I go; here’s the question—is the role that conservation biodiversity, but that they are not compliant with our own authorities play in innovating good green infrastructure. In Environmental Bill of Rights, people’s rights to be able to my riding in Hamilton, for example, the conservation weigh in on the environment—and also maybe coupled authority, in conjunction with Environment Hamilton, is with this government’s use now of ministerial zoning creating something at the salt marsh. They’re creating a orders, which essentially short-circuit, again, good plan- naturalized marshland to prevent flooding down the ning and that short-circuit science-based, collaborative escarpment. We have a lot of flooding problems in decision-making, which we just heard from Jennifer. Hamilton. Can you just talk a little bit on how you see the Auditor This government’s basically cutting off conservation General’s report and this increased use of ministerial authorities at the knees will also impede our ability to zoning orders, particularly, for example, in Duffins Creek, innovate when we need it most. Can you comment on that, where they’re going to build a warehouse on an please? Thank you. environmentally significant wetland through an MZO? Dr. Jennifer Drake: Conservation authorities—I think 1450 this is why there has been so much reaction to these Ms. Katie Krelove: Yes, I think it’s becoming clear amendments—have been incredibly successful, because that all environmental regulations or policies—or laws, they are integrated management systems that integrate the even—are considered by this government as red tape and entire watershed. They’ve been set up intending to be as standing in the way of development. science-driven. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. They do a great deal of innovation and driving— Ms. Katie Krelove: I don’t think anyone in Ontario because the issues that we have with flooding, it’s a sees it that way other than perhaps big developers who progression of knowledge. What we thought the best want to get their hands on land and water that was formerly engineering practice was in the 1950s and 1960s when unavailable because of environmental regulations. But I conservation authorities were established—and conserva- think most Ontarians understand that those environmental tion authorities are adaptive management structures. So as regulations and policies and laws are there for a really we’ve learned that certain approaches we thought were the good reason. As Jennifer said, it’s not just the environ- best knowledge and technology at the time have not ment, but the environment that protects people. Those are necessarily had the desired impacts, we advance and we there to protect the environment that protects us. adapt. This is why you see conservation authorities leading It just seems like this government will go to any length low-impact development and green infrastructure. to find a way to strip those environmental regulations and The technical manuals: As I mentioned, there is no avoid that public knowledge that they know is out there. equivalent at the federal level for the guidance documents They know that people value those green spaces and value that they produce. Technical guidelines that are produced that environmental infrastructure. Some of these ways of here in Ontario are regularly used in other provincial getting around the Environmental Bill of Rights by putting jurisdictions because they’re that good—globally, as well. proposals in omnibus bills like Bill 229— It’s a management and organizational structure that is The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so fantastic and quite envied by many others who don’t have much. The time has come up. this holistic, land-based management structure that allows We’ll move to the independent members for their this better, more collaborative integration between all of second round. MPP Hunter. the different sectors. I think people do lose sight of the fact Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Perhaps I could go back, because that the goal of conservation authorities really isn’t the we were cut off just before, to get Jennifer to respond to environment; it’s the people. the question I had around living in flood zones and the fact

F-3126 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 that it actually makes them coexist with the realities of the everyone is going to to keep everybody safe. What about environment. In a way, it actually is safe development— mental health and well-being? How is that going? Maybe, Dr. Jennifer Drake: Sorry, I wouldn’t call this—“safe Sue, you can talk to us about that. development” is very— The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Generous? apologize, MPP Hunter. The time has come up. Dr. Jennifer Drake: Yes. We have homes that are in That concludes our time for the presentations. Thank communities that predate where the regulated flood plain you to all three presenters. We appreciate your presenta- is. We have people that live in, even, frequent flood zones. tions. As a result of that, people can’t get certain types of insurance, people deal with the effects and we deal as a society with the costs of making it work. So we make it LIUNA LOCAL 183 TRAINING CENTRE work, because many of our areas were established long MR. DAVID LAING before we had the understanding of hydrologic processes NORTH GWILLIMBURY FOREST that we do today. We’re not going to go to Brampton and ALLIANCE say, “You know what, downtown Brampton? Let’s move you,” or the financial district, “Let’s move you.” The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Moving along to Instead, what we do is we invest huge amounts of our next group of presenters, first I would like to call upon capital in very sophisticated flood warning and protection LIUNA 183 Training Centre. Please state your name for systems and emergency response measures and then in the record, and you will have seven minutes for your billion-dollar projects, like land-forming projects, that we presentation. have examples of here in Toronto, like the Corktown Mr. Sandro Pinto: Good afternoon, everybody. Sorry, Common. They’re amazing feats of engineering and I love I’m not on camera. I’ve had some connectivity issues in them, but they are incredibly expensive and would not be my earlier meetings this morning. necessary if we had planned and regulated the growth of My name is Sandro Pinto. I’m the executive director our communities. Today, in 2020, where we have a with LIUNA Local 183’s training fund. I am pleased to be modern technical and scientific understanding, we can here with everyone and looking forward to the afternoon eliminate these types of very expensive and ongoing here. systemic infrastructure costs by leaving the space. At LIUNA Local 183, we have a long and storied track The reason we have conservation authorities in this record of working with government and private sector province is because in the 1950s we had Hurricane Hazel employers to deliver infrastructure projects such as and we had tens of thousands of Ontarians left homeless. highways and hospitals. In Ontario, LIUNA members Hundreds of people died. An entire road of houses was have anchored construction of major government under- bulldozed by a bridge in the middle of the night, and takings such as subways, water mains, roadwork and people died and drowned. We learned from that. We even bridges. We also work with the private sector to build embarked on a land buyback effort to buy it back and put apartment buildings, office towers and residential homes. it into the public domain so that we could protect people We take a positive, proactive and progressive approach from the worst of the worst outcomes. to ensuring a safe workplace for our members and pro- Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Well, these are very costly viding them with well-paying jobs. We’re proud to lead lessons, indeed. I really thank you for your presentation initiatives that aim to increase diversity and inclusivity in today, along with Katie. the construction industry, and we’re continuing to develop I do want to just touch on FilmOntario. I’m really strategies to remove racism, sexism and other forms of pleased to hear your confidence in the future of film and workplace violence from the job site. television in this province, given our leadership as a LIUNA understands the importance that the skilled destination in North America. trades have to community building, meaningful employ- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. ment and supporting thousands of families. Historically, Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I noted that you requested some the trades were inaccessible to many young people due to changes to—first of all, you wanted to see the film and the cost required to get started or were considered television tax credit as something that remains. I know undesirable career paths, and apprenticeships were hard to that’s something that we supported as well, as part of the come by. Ontario’s Skilled Trades Strategy offers a multi- consultations we did over the summer, and we heard from faceted approach to removing those barriers, which many, many of your members. traditionally keep young people from prosperous and This time around, you want to see enhancements that fulfilling careers. really incorporate the realities of COVID and the PPE and The Ontario Tools Grant helps apprentices purchase the the other costs that you have to endure to operate safely. tools that they need to succeed on a job site. The additional That’s definitely something that we would support and financial support that Ontario is offering to apprentices [inaudible] as well, so I just wanted you to know that. ensures that young people won’t have to choose between If there’s anything else that you want to add—I know a job now and training for a lifelong career. Ontario’s an ACTRA representative is here, as well, who represents funding for training provides the means so that apprentices the talent side of it. I’m pleased to hear the lengths can train on safe and current equipment. Like many 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3127 industries, our sector changes at a rapid pace. We need to Development Fund, which will provide $30 million over ensure our apprentices learn innovative techniques and up- two years to assist non-college training providers, busi- to-date skills. Training is critical to the safety and develop- nesses and associations, is another example of what is ment of apprentices. The government’s investment into coming and what is important to the skilled trades. modernizing training will keep our job sites safer and Back in 2002, when I started with LIUNA as their better prepare young people for a successful career ahead. apprenticeship coordinator for Local 183, shortly there- The government’s proposed partnerships with employ- after, I remember hearing how there was going to be this ers, the new Achievement Incentive and other support skills shortage and the skills shortage was coming, and we programs will create the positions which apprentices were all getting ready for it. A number of years and many previously struggled to find. In turn, employers will have governments later, we had tried different things to tackle the financial capacity to recruit talented young people who the skills shortage. Different programs had come up and will become skilled employees. Hiring apprentices is a different ways of attacking apprenticeships in the Ontario cost that many small and medium-sized businesses cannot College of Trades and a number of other different things take on. The apprenticeship strategy removes that burden had popped up. and creates more opportunities for young people. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. According to the Toronto board of trade, 147,000 Mr. Sandro Pinto: I believe that this current govern- construction-related jobs will be created by 2031. We need ment, their proposal and their budget, has allowed for the to make smart investments today to prepare our young most comprehensive, the most aggressive and wide, generation to meet the demands of tomorrow’s job market. broadening approach when it comes to attacking the skills We know that new infrastructure projects are key to shortages and investing in our youth, women and Indigen- reigniting the economy. We need to bring in more skilled ous partnerships. tradespeople to build the highways, subways and hospitals That’s it for my opening statement. I’m prepared to that our growing province will rely on. answer any questions that the panel may have. Thank you As our province prepares to restart its economy, the for your attention too. skilled trades strategy is an opportunity to have our young people at the centre of our future. LIUNA believes in the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. importance of inclusion, both on the job site and in our We’ll go to our next presenter, David Laing. Please communities. We’re proud to offer training programs that state your name for the record, and you can get right into encourage more women to enter the trades, and we believe your presentation. in breaking down the barriers that have historically limited Mr. David Laing: Great. Thank you, Chair and mem- diversity on jobs. At LIUNA Local 183, as an example, we bers of the committee, for the opportunity to speak with partnered with Aecon construction and their women in the you today. My name is David Laing. I was born in Ontario trades program recently, and had a number of success and currently live in Brampton, Ontario. I have a history stories through that program. We look to expand it and with this province that spans almost seven decades. This have had discussions about expanding it into our Ottawa is the first time that I have presented to the committee, and sister local in the near future. it is distressing that I feel compelled to do so now in 1500 response to Bill 229, and specifically schedule 6 and LIUNA created mobile units to offer training to schedule 8 of this bill. underserved and remote communities through our In- For me, this is about balance and public trust. As you digenous partnerships. This has created new opportunities know, conservation authorities were created by provincial for young people in remote communities and First legislation in 1946 to address flood risk, soil erosion and Nations. The government’s skilled trades strategy will deteriorating water quality due to decades of poor, often allow our organization to offer more programs and create politically-driven, land use decisions. They were given the new opportunities across Ontario. ability to purchase property and they took management Union employment offers apprentices and their fam- control over much of the land in the flood plains of the ilies well-paying jobs, medical benefits and best-in-class province’s watersheds. They were given the mandate and pensions upon retirement. Investing $24 million in the authority to stop environmentally damaging development Apprentice Development Benefit to supplement EI projects and to negotiate with landowners to secure better benefits for eligible apprentices attending full-time, in- environmental outcomes. They were asked to increase class training and investing $4.7 million for the develop- public awareness of the importance of watershed health by ment of a new, user-friendly digital portal are just some of providing educational and recreational opportunities. the items that are important to us. Over the decades, conservation authorities have largely Committing a total of $211 million to the In-Class succeeded in reducing soil erosion and flood risk and Enhancement Fund over the next two years to support preventing a disastrous decline in water quality and training providers to deliver higher-quality training and biodiversity. Their mandate, authority and science-based investing an additional $10 million in the Apprenticeship analysis have brought much-needed balance to the Capital Grant are all important to the positive things that pressure for urban and suburban development and are going to be necessary for us to move forward with contributed a wealth of understanding and experience for filling that skills shortage. Establishing a new Skills sustainable development practices.

F-3128 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 For residents like me, the conservation authorities have The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. proven to be trusted environmental custodians, providing We’ll go to our next presenter, North Gwillimbury a reasoned, balanced and long-term view. Until now, they Forest Alliance. Please state your name for the record. You were backed by legislation and had the authority and will have seven minutes for your presentation as well. resources to stand up to both private and public Mr. Jack Gibbons: Thank you, Mr. Sandhu and landowners when their situational assessment concluded members of the committee. I’m Jack Gibbons from the that the development interests of the few were trumping North Gwillimbury Forest Alliance. Thank you very much the environmental interests of the larger Ontario for the opportunity to talk with you today about schedule population. As a member of the public concerned about 6 of Bill 229. Before I give you our thoughts about environmental issues yet lacking in the time, resources and schedule 6, I’d like to give you a bit of background expertise to understand the environmental complexities of information about the North Gwillimbury Forest. individual development applications, the conservation The North Gwillimbury Forest is one of the 10 largest authorities have been and continue to be a source of forests in the Lake Simcoe watershed. In fact, it is more comfort well worth the tax dollars they receive. than three times larger than Vancouver’s Stanley Park. It Today population increases, particularly in the southern stretches all the way from the north end of Keswick to part of the province and especially in the GTHA, mean that Jacksons Point in the town of Georgina. At the centre of there is mounting pressure for affordable housing. the North Gwillimbury Forest is a 500-acre provincially Coupled with this, the COVID-19 pandemic is causing a significant wetland and woodland that is owned by the DG major rethink of densification. There has never been more Group, which is a large developer. In 2011, we learned that pressure to release land for greenfield development. In the DG Group wanted to build a large subdivision on this addition, food consumption habits increasingly favour provincially significant wetland. So we created the North local production that is driving agricultural intensification. Gwillimbury Forest Alliance to Protect our forest and its All of these trends are exacerbating the environmental wetland. threat to our watersheds and local ecosystems. The balance We have worked very hard over the last nine years to point between development and environmental sus- protect the forest and save the wetland. I am pleased to tainability has become razor thin. We have little wiggle note that in response to our request last year, the Local room for the future even while we continue fixing past Planning Appeal Tribunal amended the town of mistakes. With the global warming crisis and the Georgina’s official plan to prohibit development on this biodiversity crisis looming, we cannot afford to create new provincially significant wetland. So it would appear that mistakes, because we don’t have the luxury of time for our campaign to save the wetland and the forest has been repair. successful. Reducing red tape is a fine objective, but as far as I’m 1510 concerned, that’s not what Bill 229 is about. Schedule 6 of Why are we here today to talk about schedule 6? The this bill would make it far more difficult and far more answer to that question is very simple: If schedule 6 is expensive for the conservation authorities to protect our passed by the Legislature, then the Minister of Natural properties from flood damage and ensure the quality of Resources and Forestry, with a simple stroke of the pen, water in our watersheds. They will be more restricted in will be able to give the DG Group permission to build a their ability to stop unauthorized work, they won’t have large subdivision on the wetland in the North Gwillimbury party status at the LPAT table and they will have no tools Forest. This is simply not right. It is simply not right to to ensure that the science will be considered in the face of give a politician, who sits in an office in downtown ministerial zoning orders. Toronto, the ability to undo the hard work of citizens’ The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. groups who have fought for years and years to protect our Mr. David Laing: And schedule 8 reduces the prov- provincially significant wetland. ince’s responsibility to protect species at risk, thereby Mr. Sandhu and members of the committee, Ontario is endangering the province’s biodiversity. a very large province. As a result, we do not need to Cloaking these reductions in omnibus budget bills destroy our provincially significant wetlands to create which limit public discourse creates public mistrust about homes for our people or to grow our economy. Southern this government’s environmental priorities. Economic Ontario has already lost more than 70% of its wetlands. recovery from COVID-19 cannot be accomplished by We can’t afford to lose any more. reducing environmental protections and oversight. As was There’s one other concern we have with respect to proven prior to 1946, this short-term thinking will only schedule 6 that I’d like to talk to you about. Schedule 6 result in continued environmental degradation, leading to proposes to give developers many options to appeal both economic loss and reduced quality of life for most decisions that protect our natural heritage, but schedule 6 Ontarians. does not give citizens’ groups the right to appeal decisions So pass Bill 229 if you must, but please keep environ- that would harm our natural heritage. This is asymmetrical mental protections out of legislation primarily designed and unfair. If developers are going to be allowed to appeal for economic recovery. I request respectfully that you decisions that protect our natural heritage, then surely please remove schedule 6 and schedule 8 from Bill 229. citizens’ groups should also be allowed to appeal decisions Thank you for your time. that harm our natural heritage. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3129 In conclusion, Mr. Sandhu and members of the co- Wetlands also, of course, sequester carbon to help mmittee, we believe that schedule 6 is fundamentally prevent dangerous climate change. They provide habitats flawed and should be withdrawn from Bill 229. Thank you for species. They help us protect biodiversity. So the very much for your attention. If you have any questions, MZOs and schedule 6 are very short-sighted. I’ll be pleased to answer them. The people of Ontario want growth. They want homes. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so They want jobs. But, as I said in my introductory remarks, much for your presentation. we are a large province. There’s lots of land in the GTA We’ll go to the questions now. We’ll start the first that’s available for development that is not wetlands or round of questions with the opposition. MPP Shaw. natural heritage. What the government seems to be promoting is stupid Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you, everyone, for your growth, but we need smart growth. That’s growth that presentations. Let me start with you, Mr. Gibbons. The outcry to schedule 6 and schedule 8 in this budget bill has grows our economy without jeopardizing our environment been remarkable. Almost 99% of the people who have and our natural resources. come to this committee are asking for this to be with- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. drawn, and it’s all kinds of people. The Ontario Federation Mr. Jack Gibbons: The North Gwillimbury Forest of Agriculture opposes this. All sorts of people are Alliance is based in the town of Georgina. That’s Caroline opposing this. And so it’s distressing for me to let you Mulroney’s riding. The vast majority of the people in the know that, for example, the MPP from Flamborough– town of Georgina support our campaign to save the North Glanbrook characterized this opposition as “just a lot of Gwillimbury Forest. Every single member of the Georgina noise from special interest groups.” To me, that’s very council supports our campaign to save the North disrespectful and unfortunate, because clearly these are Gwillimbury Forest. People up there love Lake Simcoe. not special interest groups; these are people who have a They love the natural heritage. That’s why they moved up deep-seated love and concern for our environment. there. They elected a Progressive Conservative represent- What I would like to ask you very specifically about— ative, but the people who elected Caroline Mulroney also not just in schedule 6, but in general—this government’s want this government to protect our natural heritage. They seemingly endless attack on the environment and environ- want this government to protect Lake Simcoe’s watershed. mental protections: Schedule 6 will give the minister As an economist, what they’re proposing to do just direct ability to oversee good planning, good decision- baffles me, because it doesn’t really make economic sense. making, scientific evidence. What we also see now is a We don’t need to trade off our environment to have a minister that is moving with ministerial zoning orders. So growing economy and to provide homes for people. the changes to the conservation authority, coupled with Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you very much for that. I this unusual excessive use of ministerial zonings, is would agree with you completely. This seems to be a continuing to erode this loss of our wetlands that you government that doesn’t believe in the science of climate described, which is disastrous. It’s absolutely disastrous. change or doesn’t understand how to respond. I think that I will get to my question, but if you can speak to the if we just talk about the language they do understand, loss of wetlands when it comes to Duffins Creek, for which is, theoretically, what’s good for business—I mean, example, in Ajax; that’s the Minister of Finance’s own this is not good for business. riding. In fact, the ministerial zoning orders that have been We hear about the shore erosion, flooding basements. imposed on communities—we as Ontario’s official People and municipalities are struggling with their infra- opposition NDP are asking the Integrity Commissioner to structure deficit. People are struggling to get insurance for investigate the Premier allowing a ministerial zoning order their businesses or for their homes. As an economist, can to be issued in Stratford, Ontario. you talk about how this would make sense and maybe how we can teach this government to walk and chew gum at the So my real question is—the significance of this can’t be same time? You can protect the environment and you can understated. The loss of our significant wetlands is huge. recover the economy. That would be something that Do you see this as a pattern of behaviour and are these maybe you could advise on. tools that this government is amassing to just run over— Mr. Jack Gibbons: Certainly. If we have smart growth pave over, if you will—our environmental lands? and smart infrastructure, that means lower taxes. There is Mr. Jack Gibbons: Yes, there are too many ministerial a more rational approach that’s better for taxpayers, better zoning orders. These planning decisions are very complex for the economy and better for the environment. and it’s important for the local citizens to have input. But what these short-sighted policies do is they do MZOs eliminate that. benefit certain developers who own certain parcels of land. Also, our provincially significant wetlands are just so Unfortunately, the government seems to be more con- essential. They help prevent flooding. They clean our cerned about increasing the profits of certain developers water. In terms of Lake Simcoe, they will help reduce than doing what is in the best interests of the province as a phosphorus pollution. We have a very serious phosphorus whole. That’s very short-sighted. I hope they’ll change pollution problem in Lake Simcoe. We need to actually direction, because what they’re doing is not what the reduce our phosphorus pollution by 55%. The government people of Ontario want and it’s certainly not what most of does not have a plan to do that. their voters want.

F-3130 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 1520 I know that you also do a lot of work on the community Ms. Sandy Shaw: I agree. Chair, how— benefits side, so really looking at marginalized commun- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’re out of time. ities and looking at pre-apprentice opportunities into those Thank you. as well. We’ll move to the independent members now. MPP The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. Hunter. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Can you speak to that? Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Thank you so much to all the Mr. Sandro Pinto: Yes. Community benefits: We presenters today. I want to start with Sandro Pinto. I know work very closely with Rosemarie Powell and her group, we can’t see each other, but it’s nice to hear you and to so you nailed it, actually. You nailed it with your question. hear that your members are doing well and that you We’re very engaged with the TCBN. We have a member support the investments in skilled trades and in workers. of LIUNA who sits on the board of TCBN and we attend a number of their outreach events. We have continued to Indeed, coming out of COVID, we’re going to need more put people through our training programs, whether it was of that investment as we move forward. just something where we needed to give them the basic I’m wondering if you can speak to some of the work health and safety training that they were requiring, because that you have been doing to bring a broader group of they did have some initial skills—but there needs to be people into the skilled trades, particularly if you could more with that, and we look forward to expanding that. speak to women, Black, Indigenous and people of colour. There’s also the PCBN, the Peel arm of the TCBN Mr. Sandro Pinto: Sure, thank you for the question. that’s coming out. We’ve already engaged in discussions I’ll highlight our most recent program, which we did out with them and are looking to hopefully run two programs of our Vaughan campus. It was together with Aecon. For with them in the new year at some point. those of you who don’t know, Aecon is a very large These are things that— contractor in Canada. They work in pipeline and utilities The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I and a lot of heavy civil projects, so a very, very large apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. employer. We’ll have to move to the government side. MPP They came to us and said, “We’re building this internal Thanigasalam. program within Aecon called Women in Trades, so we’re Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Thank you to all the looking for a training partner.” We immediately jumped at presenters for your presentations today. I’ll ask Sandro the opportunity, thinking that this is in line with what we Pinto to finish his comments, and then I have a question to want to do at LIUNA. It’s in line with what we’ve been ask him as well. trying to do. Shortly, maybe about a year or a year and a Mr. Sandro Pinto: Thank you. As I was saying, we’re half, before that, we had hired our own outreach engaged in a number of those discussions and partner- coordinator to do just that and visit schools and do tours of ships. One of the things that we’re hoping to do—a lot of our campuses for a number of groups to showcase the things that the government has laid out in their budget trades. So it was a natural fit for us. when it comes to skills training are being addressed, and Aecon went and recruited 75 women. They went we’re looking forward to it—is doing more partnerships through a recruiting process that was established by them. and expanding our campus in Vaughan, our headquarters We developed the program. We developed about three for training. different options of programs that we could tackle with We actually invested $8 million of our own resources them, but the one that they wanted us to focus on in the to build a tunnel rescue training facility that’s currently end was the Construction Craft Worker, a registered being built there to tackle the shortages, and the upcoming apprenticeship program. We began delivering our first work and recruitment in the tunnel industry. We look program about three years ago, so very successful. All of forward to working with the government on expanding the women who took the program were hired on by Aecon that particular site, if possible, and opportunities that may and have become members of Local 183. come up. That has resulted in two additional programs since then We look forward to working with the TCBN in with Aecon and an establishment of a partnership with our expanding our programs there. We’ve had a number of Ottawa local to hopefully start sometime in late 2021, groups like the TCBN. Our OYAP partners at the Toronto depending on COVID and everything else that’s hap- District School Board, the Toronto Catholic District pening, obviously. School Board and the Peel District School Board have all Ms. Mitzie Hunter: That’s really terrific. It would be wanted to expand their programs with us. It’s one of those great to get some of their stories out, particularly women problems we want to have, because you want to have more who are in the trades for the first time and their experi- people come through the trades, but our building is getting ences and encouraging other women to do the same, quite busy, and of course everybody is facing the because these are excellent jobs. We can really support challenges of COVID right now to making all of that work women’s full participation in the labour market and safely. So we continue to move forward and work with economic opportunity by creating more pathways into the everybody who wants to work with us, absolutely. skilled trades. Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Great. Thank you, Sandro. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3131 In terms of reopening after COVID, as in reopening our into the construction industry and see the viable opportun- economy, obviously building infrastructure and subways ities that are there and the career opportunities that are and opening skilled trades jobs is one of the main ways to there—not just a passing fleet of work, but an opportunity boost the economy. In terms of reopening and training in for a career. These are important things and we need the skilled trades, can you please speak on the modernizing of resources to do that. the training? What is the role of modernizing training as LIUNA is very proud of what they’ve been able to do we move forward? so far, but we have a lot of work to do with a number of Mr. Sandro Pinto: It’s integral to how we’re going to our employer partners and all of the other partners that we move forward when it comes to reopening the economy have in the industry currently. We’re another big supporter and getting people back to work, and stimulating the of Skills Ontario and we’re working with them. We’ve economy with projects such as infrastructure projects. established a women’s department that deals with women With the Modernizing the Skilled Trades and Apprentice- in the trades at our provincial office. Our training network ship Act and the establishment of—I’ll give you an is right across the province of Ontario. That meets fre- example—the skilled trades panel, all of the things that are quently and regularly to deal with all of these issues and going to be put in front of that skilled trades panel, the establish as many partnerships as we possibly can. decisions that they’re going to have to come to and the Absolutely, the main focus of that is to attract young recommendations they’re going to make are going to steer people to the trades. how we are going to build this workforce that needs to be Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Thank you, Sandro. built. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. There is going to be an unbelievable amount of op- Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: My riding is Scarborough– portunity in the construction industry, more than there has Rouge Park. We have Centennial College and U of T ever been, when we begin to get past COVID and reopen Scarborough, and we have one of the highest numbers in the economy. We want to be in a position of strength, in a youth population as well. Again, our government is trying position of being encouraging and having opportunities to encourage both young people and women to get that are attainable, opportunities that provide support involved and get this training. when apprentices are taking apprenticeship programs and I really liked the comments you made about how you going through their in-class training, opportunities for are visiting the high schools and youth councils and how tools and the opportunity to have income while they’re in you are encouraging young folks. I think that is critical as training. All of these things are going to be important for we move forward. As you mentioned in your opening us to move forward, and we need the government’s sup- remarks, it is definitely a rewarding industry as well. Once port to do that. A lot of the items that are being put forward they learn the training, it will definitely be helpful by the government, in fact, will do that. throughout their life. So I just want to thank LIUNA for Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Thank you, Sandro. You the work that you’ve been doing. We’re also looking spoke about the skills shortage as well. As I mentioned, forward to seeing more improvement with young folks, there’s going to be a huge demand for our skilled trades, both— more than ever before, because of all the subways and The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you, MPP infrastructure projects that our government is planning to Vijay. do in the upcoming future. How critical is it to encourage We’ll move to the independent members now. MPP the young people in our communities? As we see, there’s Hunter. a skills shortage in the last decade. Moving forward, why Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Hi, Chair. Let me just get my is it so important to encourage young folks so that we can video going here. balance between our skills shortage and the demand, the I want to ask the representative from the North highest demand ever? Gwillimbury Forest Alliance—you really, I felt, spoke in The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. very strong terms about what is at risk and the fact that we Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: How can we balance that, have a large area in our province. Of course, we know that and how come it’s very important at this moment? Indigenous people are the original stewards of the land. Mr. Sandro Pinto: It’s never been more important to They’ve come forward to say that this might even get young people, young men and young women of all contravene established law because there hasn’t been races, of all colours, everywhere to understand that there consultation with Indigenous communities for some of the is an opportunity in the skilled trades now, that there has changes that are being proposed in both schedule 6 and never been an opportunity like now. We need to do that schedule 8. with programs such as outreach initiatives into our high I wondered if you could speak to what would happen if schools and things like the youth adviser council that has we get this very wrong. What are some of the risks and the been set up. consequences that could happen here? 1530 Mr. Jack Gibbons: The traditional role of conserva- I have the privilege of sitting on the prevention council. tion authorities has been to prevent flooding. Certainly, These discussions at the prevention council are ongoing, there’s increased risk of flooding now with climate about how do we engage youth, how do we engage change. All the models say that the rainfall levels will women, how do we engage underrepresented groups to get increase in Canada and Ontario due to climate change, and

F-3132 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 there will be more extreme precipitation events. So there robotize a nurse. I think it applies to your sector as well. is risk of flooding. It’s just short-sighted to restrict the You can’t automate or robotize a plumber or a welder. ability of conservation authorities to fulfill that mandate. I think there’s a great future for our young people, but Also, like in Lake Simcoe, we’ve got a very serious in my community of Mississauga Centre—I’m an immi- phosphorus problem, and wetlands are so important for grant myself, and I grew up in this community—there is a reducing phosphorus pollution. These proposals to certain level of stigma attached to skilled trades, where sacrifice the wetlands and the forest to increase the short- some parents might not be encouraging their children to term profits of developers just don’t make any sense. If we go into education and to take up a skilled trade because destroy the natural protectors of our society—wetlands there is a greater influence on being a doctor or a lawyer. and forests can reduce flooding and phosphorus pollution. So I think it’s really important for us to change the culture That means we don’t have to spend so many tax dollars for and to address that stigma. I know that we’ve been doing corrective actions. Failing to protect the natural environ- that together with our Ministry of Education, where we’re ment is very short-sighted, because we lose the natural introducing skilled trades as viable careers early on, in heritage which provides so many benefits to us, but also earlier grades. So it’s great to hear that you are working because we’ll have to raise taxes to correct the problem, to with different school boards, including in Peel in my deal with the problem of flooding, to deal with the problem community. of phosphorus pollution. Can you tell us a little bit more or give us some We’ve had a phosphorus pollution problem in Lake suggestions of what we can do to encourage more young Simcoe for years. We’ve got ambitious targets to reduce people and certainly also women to take up skilled trades? the phosphorus pollution levels by 55%, but the govern- Because right now we only have a 5% participation of ment—despite the fact that Lake Simcoe has five MPPs, women in the skilled trades. Hopefully, that could change all who are members of the Progressive Conservative in the very near future. Party—hasn’t developed a plan yet to reduce Lake Mr. Sandro Pinto: Sure, thank you for your question. Simcoe’s phosphorus pollution. It’s interesting to note that parents, for those of us who are The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. parents, are probably the largest obstacle we face when Mr. Jack Gibbons: These policies are so short-sighted recruiting young people into the skilled trades. We face it and they’re not giving the voters, including the people who all the time. You nailed it with your question and your elect Tory MPPs, what they really want. The people up in comment that we all want our sons or daughters to the Lake Simcoe watershed want to protect it. Hundreds potentially be doctors and lawyers—and maybe polit- of our members have sent in emails to their local MPPs icians—but the reality is it’s not going to happen. asking them to rescind schedule 6. It just baffles me that To pull them away or to understand or to get them to the government is proposing to do this, because the only see that their son or daughter can build a career in the beneficiaries are certain developers. It’s so short-sighted. construction industry, a very profitable career in the Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Yes, I agree it is short-sighted. I construction industry, is a significant challenge for us. At have received thousands of those emails myself in my LIUNA, we decided to put resources forward and have, as riding of Scarborough–Guildwood. We border onto Lake I mentioned before, our own outreach person who just Ontario and the Scarborough Bluffs, as I’m sure you promotes the trades for us, who just goes out and finds know, famously. They are there, but they’re also eroding. partnerships within school boards, within communities. We have a partnership with the Peel Regional Police. We The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. Sorry have a Make Your Future event that we do every year with to cut you off, MPP Hunter. The time has come up. them. We’ll move to the government side. MPP Kusendova. 1540 Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Thank you very much to all Before COVID, we had an event at our campus where of our presenters. we invited guidance counsellors from all of the different I’d like to address my questions to Sandro Pinto from school boards that we partner with, and it was a real eye- LIUNA. I’m a skilled worker myself—I’m a registered opener for us because we realized that—not their fault— nurse—and so I applaud your members and all the efforts the guidance counsellors were only aware of the poster that you have been doing, especially in light of COVID- children of the trades: electrician, plumber, welder, car- 19 and this pandemic. I know that in the recovery and as penter. That’s what they thought. The skilled trades are so we slowly reopen the economy, your members will be much larger than that. So we decided that we would do critical in helping Ontario thrive once again. that as an annual event, and then this thing COVID came I’m glad that we’re focusing the discussion today on about and ruined everything. women in skilled trades, as well as on attracting young We realized at that point that we needed to expand that people into the skilled trades, because since I became an and really tackle and somehow get to parents and have MPP I’ve learned quite a bit that there’s a huge disconnect. them come out to our campus and get them on our site to We have a lot of great-paying jobs, thousands of skilled show them what a construction school looks like, because trade jobs, but we don’t have people to fill them. One of a construction school in a unionized environment looks the reasons why I became a nurse is because it requires a very different than at a college such as Sheridan or skilled set of trades. You can’t automate a nurse. You can’t Humber. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3133 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. Ms. Sandy Shaw: I think it needs to be understood by Mr. Sandro Pinto: We need them to see that and we everyone in Ontario the amazing training that takes place need them to see that we have a pretty good grasp on what in unionized workplaces across Ontario and the sophisti- we’re doing. We have a pretty good understanding of what cation of your training centres. It’s pretty remarkable. it will take for people to get into the trades— But this age-old problem of trying to get kids into Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Thank you. Sorry, we only skilled trades, it’s not new. Back in the day, again, in the have two minutes left, so I wanted to touch upon this idea 1990s, I worked with the Ontario training advisory board. of micro-credentials, because this budget is including LIUNA was a part of that. We also participated in some- $180.5 million over the next three years. I’m really excited thing called the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program, about this idea of micro-credentialing for my industry. For the OYAP program. So, it’s not a new problem. It’s health care, definitely, this will help to build capacity something we still collectively need to crack, this problem. within the health care system, especially in light of I want to address one of the issues, which is around COVID-19. Can you tell us which sectors you think would people wanting to have stable, secure and predictable benefit the most from this investment and focus on micro- work. Some of the evidence we found is that when people credentials? go into the skilled trades, when there is a recession, when Mr. Sandro Pinto: I think that when you’re looking at there are big layoffs and when there’s a downturn, people micro-credentialing, you could look at the heavy civil, don’t come back to that, necessarily, back to those skills, absolutely, because there are so many different skill sets or for example, they don’t finish their ticket because of within a specific traditional apprenticeship program, when those downturns. That, I think, is a problem. I’m going to you’re breaking it down and realizing that people have had get you to speak to that. careers on one aspect of a thing or you can build a career And I would just say, in Hamilton, we were severely in one area of one particular set of skills or one particular disappointed, and I know that LIUNA was also dis- trade. When you’re looking at the apprenticeship system appointed, by the sudden cancellation of the LRT. That and what it was and what we’re trying to change it into, was a promise to provide lots of good-paying jobs, good the flexibility has to be there to identify what is the need. construction jobs, for your members and for the people of What do we need right now? What is something that Hamilton. I’m trying to make the connection between the people can begin a viable career in and young people can predictability, the idea that this is stable work and that get involved with now, and not have to be burdened with people can build a career on it, but even though it’s well- things that are not necessarily as critical at this particular paying at the time, if they end up in a position where these time that they need to do, that they can just focus on this jobs are taken away from them, they might never return to one thing or three things, and that’s going to allow them to the job. Sandro, if you wanted to comment on that? Thank be successful? you. Part of the skilled trades panel and other areas that are Mr. Sandro Pinto: Sure. I will say that on the transfer- being looked at within the government and with unionized ability of construction skill sets, what we at LIUNA have trades and employers and everybody involved is really done to tackle some of those issues is—I’ll give an zeroing in on things that can be done that assist and target example. We have a residential house framing program specific areas of required need. where we have people come in and they build a home at The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. our facility in Vaughan. At some point, if the residential sector were to slow down in framing, we built a two-week Ms. Natalia Kusendova: There are a lot of skills that program that could transfer a carpenter’s skill in the are transferable between similar professions, and that certainly applies in health care. I know that Ontario is residential framing into the high-rise or into heavy civil leading the way when it comes to micro-credentials, so it and bridge work. certainly is an exciting time, and we’re working across When you’re talking about sustainability, if you have ministries on this specific aspect. those core foundation skills or if you have that particular skill set in one sector and construction slows down, if you Thank you so much. It’s really great to have you. And are able to establish yourself in a training program that thank you again to all of your members, who are truly allows you to take a different program but it’s still very critical, especially at this time as we slowly reopen and similar within your wheelhouse of skill sets, you can recover from the pandemic. transfer into a related sector that is on the uprise. Mr. Sandro Pinto: Thank you. Sometimes you have the heavy civil where it’s busy and The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’ll go to the residential is slow, and then vice versa. You can transfer opposition for their second round. MPP Shaw. back and forth. We’ve done that successfully at our Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you. Sandro, don’t turn your training centres, including in Hamilton, where I know you camera off yet. Now that you’re on your feet, I’m going to said you were. Yes, and I did know Mitch. keep you there. I just wanted to let you know that I have On the issue of the LRT, it’s not my realm. It’s more of actually worked with LIUNA. I actually was at the LIUNA a Joe Mancinelli question, but yes, I know that did happen 837 training centre in Stoney Creek. In the day, I worked and I know that Joe is in discussions. with Riccardo Persi, and I don’t know if you remember Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thanks for that, Sandro. Neither you Mitch Holt—it may be way before your time. nor I want to speak with Joe Mancinelli. How’s that? We’ll Mr. Sandro Pinto: No, I do. I do know Mitch, yes. leave it at that.

F-3134 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 I would like to end my questioning with the time I have The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I left with Mr. Laing. Mr. Laing, I want to thank you for apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. being here, that you felt compelled to speak before this That concludes our time. Thank you to all three committee. You represent, what I would say, is a ground- presenters. We appreciate your presentations. swell of—dare I call you a regular Ontarian, if I may, who has been outraged by this decision, who didn’t see it coming, who sees that it makes absolutely no sense in DAVID SUZUKI FOUNDATION terms of the process or science-based decisions. CITY OF BRAMPTON We hear the government talking a lot about red tape. It’s like catnip for this government to talk about red tape. MS. DARLA FISET The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Moving along to Ms. Sandy Shaw: But really, when they talk about red our next group of presenters, first I would like to call upon tape, what they’re doing is reducing protections in the David Suzuki Foundation. Please state your name for workplaces that keep people safe, in child care that keep the record, and you will have seven minutes for your babies safe or in public services. Let’s think Walkerton. presentation. Those are examples of when we’ve looked at reducing the Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and government’s involvement, and they have resulted in thank you, committee members, for providing this tragic consequences. opportunity today. My name is Dr. Yannick Beaudoin. I’m If you want to comment on this idea that this govern- a senior economist and director general for Ontario and ment thinks everything that is impeding their way to get northern Canada with the David Suzuki Foundation. I can their will is red tape, I’d appreciate that, and maybe even see that in these unusual times, my kitchen will now be just talk about how this, under the cover of red tape, taking part of the public record. away protections and taking away conservation authorities Mr. Chair, esteemed committee members, I’m here that people love is eroding the public trust that you talked today thanks to and on behalf of the nearly 10,000 about. Ontarian voices who, over the past week, have accessed Mr. David Laing: Okay. Thank you, MPP Shaw. First the David Suzuki Foundation platform to write to their of all, I want to give you my background: As a manage- MPPs to express serious concerns with key aspects of Bill ment consultant over a number of years, I was in change 229. The foundation is also here today in solidarity with management and looking at how companies can make NGO partners across the charitable non-profit sector who process efficiencies and reduce red tape. So I am certainly together seek to work constructively towards an Ontario one who has some experience and expertise in understand- that is truly thriving today and for all tomorrows; an ing the necessity to eliminate dual steps and unneeded Ontario that is equitable, just, fair; an Ontario with an processes. economy that delivers true well-being for people and 1550 planet. However, as I found in business, it’s a balancing act. We also stand firmly in support of the voices and rights You have to be very careful about how you cut and what of all Indigenous peoples with respect to all activities and items you cut in order to maintain the integrity of the actions in their traditional territories. Since time im- process itself and to prevent chaos from occurring. In this particular case, I along with a number of other people all memorial, Indigenous peoples have exemplified a feel that this particular piece of the legislation goes way harmony and interconnection with nature, a harmony and too far in its implementation of trying to streamline interdependence which a colonial, extractive and oppres- processes for developers. Mr. Gibbons has made some sive economic model has all but erased. excellent points in terms of saying that that balancing act As an organization with so much privilege, we also is now weighted heavily in favour of the developers and strive, and still have much to learn, to improve how we can less so in favour of the citizens of this province who are walk in solidarity with all equity-deserving communities interested in environmental protections. So that’s an area that continue to be let down by an economic mindset and of concern for me. policy framework that favour some above others. This has The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. been made clearly visible by the socially concentrated Mr. David Laing: Your second question was with impacts of the COVID pandemic. regard to the public trust. It’s the way that the government Mr. Chair and esteemed committee members, Bill 229 has introduced this legislation, putting it inside of omnibus is entitled Protect, Support and Recover from COVID-19 bills that are budget-based bills which basically limit Act, leading Ontarians to think that its contents are public discourse, do not get the visibility on the Environ- focused on immediate and longer-term needs specifically mental Registry and don’t really allow for the kinds of related to dealing with the present crisis and presenting discussion and debate that is really necessary to make first key steps to get us on a good path beyond the crisis. these kinds of changes. The conservation authorities, over Yet a number of sections, schedules 6 and 8 in particular, a number of decades—and I’ve had some personal cannot be argued as relating to protecting or supporting interaction with the conservation authorities over the past Ontarians during the pandemic, nor do they offer any help five years. They have built up, over time, an element of to Ontarians with respect to recovery. Bill 229 continues a trust that I can count on them to— pattern by this government to dismiss the intergenerational 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3135 value of Ontario’s intact natural assets, to undermine the chance, would define as a successful economy. Ontario few safeguards that are in place to prevent their wholesale could lead the way in a bold reimagining of fit-for-purpose exploitation and conversion to profit for a few, and to economic policy drivers— employ procedural tactics that erode democratic principles The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. and trust in government itself. Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: —that align with the values of As an economist, I argue that applying the same pre- Ontarians and that don’t thrive on exploitation, extraction COVID economic thinking that has resulted in a global and inequities but rather on connection, participation, climate and biodiversity crisis, that has exacerbated social dignity and the acknowledgement of our interdependence and cultural injustices and inequities, and is inflating with nature. intergenerational fiscal liabilities that governments are One thing this old economic thinking and related already scrambling to address is not a sound pathway policies are really growing these days is ecological debt. forward. That’s a real debt that we are passing on to future A core promise made by this government with Bill 229 Ontarians. We are already failing, and this government is job creation—not necessarily good or fulfilling jobs, just continues to fail. Financial debt can be paid off; climate jobs. And yet, paradoxically, sections like schedule 8, and ecological debt in human time scales cannot. At a which includes a permanent exemption to the forestry fundamental level, if we all agree with the laws of physics, industry from the Endangered Species Act, mislead the only economic entity that’s actually too big to let fail Ontarians to believe forestry is a job-creation engine. is, in fact, the planet. However, according to StatsCan, nationally, between As the medical professionals and biologists would note, 1997 and 2016, even as the total value of the sector in there is only one thing in nature that tries to physically monetary terms remained relatively consistent, total grow forever: cancer. For those of us like myself who have employment decreased by 42%. It’s important to note that had loved ones afflicted with that disease, that kind of this was not due to conservation or good stewardship growth is not welcomed and it should no longer be what measures. This is basic conventional economics. defines the purpose and outcomes of Ontario’s economy. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. It is safe to say our economy has grown enough; it’s now Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: In mature extractor sectors time for it to grow up— like forestry, or mining where I was from for a while, The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I mechanization and efficiencies of scale de-incentivize any apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. push to increase employment. Further eroding the already We’ll move to our next presenter. Our next presenter is basic safeguards aimed at protecting the quality and the city of Brampton. Please state your name for the integrity of Ontario’s forests and many species at risk they record. You will have seven minutes for your presentation are home to does not result in more jobs, and merely as well. selling the natural capital of the province to external Ms. Gurdeep Kaur: Good afternoon. My name is markets and interests is old school economic thinking. Gurdeep Kaur. I’m the director of corporate projects and Good quality, fulfilling job creation in Ontario comes from policy at the city of Brampton. I would like to start off by innovative, bold and agile sectors where the creativity and saying good afternoon, Chair and members of the com- ingenuity of all Ontarians is fully valued. mittee. For example, as direct private sector forestry job Today, I’m joined by some of my colleagues at the city numbers have remained roughly the same in Ontario of Brampton: Paul Aldunate, who is an expeditor in between 2015 and 2019, according to StatsCan, employ- planning, building and economic development, and Rick ment in the clean tech sector has essentially doubled in the Conard, director of building and chief building officer at same period. This sectoral expansion doesn’t require the the city of Brampton. Also on the line we have Clare degradation of nature or the weakening of environmental Barnett, who is the director of economic development. safeguards and doesn’t put at risk the possibility for all 1600 Ontarians to live in a healthy environment today and On behalf of the city of Brampton, thank you for the tomorrow. Such desirable careers, with proper planning opportunity to present to you with the city’s comments on and sound government strategies, can be distributed across Bill 229, Protect, Support and Recover from COVID-19 the province and especially in places that would benefit Act. the most. With the COVID-19 pandemic, municipalities are the A second core premise that lies at the heart of Bill 229 first line of support for our residents and businesses. is that growth will lead us to an era of milk-and-honey Municipal governments have an immense responsibility in prosperity for all. Respectfully, I would ask this govern- shaping the future of our communities as we recover from ment, what is it that Ontarians actually want to see grow? this health crisis. Have you asked them? Does the pre-COVID notion of I would like to focus a little bit on the Conservation growth defined as how quickly we can convert nature to Authorities Act at this time. The city would like to raise its money using the cheapest possible labour, also known as concerns with proposed significant changes to the Con- gross domestic product, still apply? Economists have servation Authorities Act that Bill 229 makes and with the known for decades that GDP alone does not inform gov- impact that these changes will have on the role that the ernments on any progress towards achieving the qualita- conservation authorities have in land use planning. The tive aspirations people expect and desire or, if given the proposed changes have a direct impact on how city staff

F-3136 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 evaluate development proposals and work with the these businesses when they are permitted to resume patio conservation authorities to protect natural systems in service by providing additional opportunity for expanded Brampton. seating areas throughout the winter and beyond. The city is concerned about how the proposed amend- On June 5, 2020, the province amended the liquor ments will be implemented and how these changes would licence act to permit the temporary physical expansion of impact conservation authority effectiveness and efficien- liquor-licensed premises until January 1, 2021. The city cies while providing the potential to bypass the local would support the extension of the liquor licences for development approval process, resulting in the loss of those establishments to align with the Brampton patio local scientific analysis, which is a critical function of the program extension date of September 7, 2021. Extending conservation authorities for managing natural hazards, liquor licence permissions beyond January 1, 2021 would such as flooding. provide restaurants with flexibility to temporarily extend Narrowing the powers of conservation authorities is the physical size of their existing licensed patio or to counter to the watershed approach required by the temporarily add a new licensed patio in order to minimize Conservation Authorities Act. The proposed amendment the administrative burden for licensees. would curb the city’s existing relationship with conserva- With that, I would like to hand it over to Rick Conard tion authorities and would have an impact on long-term to speak to you about potential relief to the Ontario planning, especially the cumulative impacts of develop- building code. Thank you. ment that consider the connectivity of natural features in Mr. Rick Conard: Thank you, Paul. an area and the long-term ecological function and In addition, in order to provide the outdoor dining biodiversity of natural heritage systems. options to mitigate the financial losses of these indoor Having declared a climate change emergency and a dining restrictions, most restaurants in Brampton have robust suite of incentives to ensure sustainable develop- been erecting tents and canopies with the benefit of a ment and a healthy environment, the city would welcome building permit. The Ontario building code requires a further opportunity to work with the government to ensure permit for tents that are greater than 60 square metres or that the changes to the Conservation Authorities Act are a closer than three metres to a building. Compliance with the positive step forward without unintended negative Planning Act, such as site plan approval or zoning bylaw consequences. restrictions, may also add to the red tape that restaurants The city was pleased with the provincial announcement must go through in order to accomplish this. Most of the regarding the new rapid test to provide faster COVID-19 tents and canopies that are available on the market today results in regions of high transmission. The region of Peel, do not meet the building code requirements, such as and especially the city of Brampton, is at the heart of goods environmental loading, for all-four-season use. movement in Ontario and Canada. Approximately $1.8 Just in the interests of time, I stand here before you as billion worth of goods move through the region every day. Goods-movement-related industries account for 43% of the chief building official for the city of Brampton— jobs in Peel. Brampton employs many essential workers The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. who keep our grocery stores stocked with food and play Mr. Rick Conard: —requesting that the province an integral part in ensuring essential goods are available to introduce measures that will allow restaurants and bars, or the entire country during this very pandemic. other food and drink establishments, to safely operate. It’s critical that we work together to quickly identify Moreover, once the region is out of the grey lockdown and manage outbreaks to stop the spread of COVID-19 in level, the city would support further measures that would key sectors, including these. As the province moves ahead allow restaurants, bars and other food and drink with implementation of the 2020 budget, the city of establishments to partially enclose existing extended Brampton requests that these essential workers receive patios to assist these establishments with operating access to the new rapid test as soon as possible to ensure through the winter months and until outdoor dining is the continued provision of the essential services that they permitted without restrictions. This may mean a partial or provide. permanent relaxation of building code requirements to I will now ask Paul to speak regarding patios and allow these tents and canopies to be erected. outdoor dining. Thank you. I’ll hand it back to Gurdeep to conclude. Mr. Paul Aldunate: Thank you, Gurdeep. Ms. Gurdeep Kaur: Thank you, Paul and Rick. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the In closing, the city of Brampton is looking to be a committee. For your consideration, we have some items to partner with the province as we navigate through the raise related to the AGCO and the Ontario building code. pandemic and work towards a strong and sustained Brampton city council unanimously voted to extend the recovery. With a robust workforce and endless potential, city’s patio permit program to September 7, 2021. Brampton is a key contributor to the provincial economy The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. and a willing partner to ensure the city and the province Mr. Paul Aldunate: It allows restaurants, bars and emerge stronger and more prosperous from this challen- other food and drink establishments to continue offering ging time. expanded outdoor dining spaces. Although indoor dining At this time, I would like to thank everyone. We would and patio services are not currently permitted in Peel be more than happy to answer any questions that you may during the grey lockdown level, this extension will support have for us. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3137 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so Thank you for bringing some of your ideas to the table. much. Just to respond to some of the things that were mentioned: Our next presenter is Darla Fiset. If you can please state In this budget, we did provide funding for 161 assessment your name for the record. You will have seven minutes for centres. I know that in Brampton, at the Peel Memorial your presentation as well. Centre—I’ve been there myself actually, twice, to get Ms. Darla Fiset: Hello. My name is Darla Fiset. Good tested, and it’s a seamless process. It’s great to see our afternoon. I’m a PSW from Timmins and I would like to front-line workers really stepping up to the plate and tell you about my vision story of being a PSW. After 12 serving our communities. years, I decided to become a PSW after raising my family. There was also mention in our budget about 110 PCR- I used to help out my grandmother when I was younger. In based rapid test analyzers, so that’s something that is high school, I graduated with a 90% honours in helping coming through the grapevine. I know that at Humber out the co-op class with mentally handicapped kids. River Hospital these rapid tests are being utilized, so this I enjoy and love my job with home care and helping my will be an essential tool to help us in the fight against clients with everyday living. As it may sound, it’s very COVID-19. demanding, just trying to walk from client to client and Of course, we’re also building capacity within our keep on schedule. Yes, I walk from client to client in all health care system. We have invested in an additional kinds of weather, with as many as 10 or more clients a day. 3,100 beds to build capacity, and some of these beds are I work in central Timmins and I’ve worked from one side including investments in William Osler. Brampton Civic of Timmins to the other side of Timmins, which can be Hospital, I believe, received funding for an additional 89 very challenging, trying to keep up with the schedule. I beds. So we’re doing everything we can, especially in light enjoy my clients. I want to make a difference for our of this COVID-19 pandemic. seniors and our PSWs in home care. But my question is to Mr. Conard. Can you expand a Home care, in general, is in dire need of repair. The little bit more about this idea or suggestion to alter the system is so broken even now, more than ever. We can’t building code requirements to allow restaurants and bars forget home care. It starts with keeping people in their to have these partial outdoor structures, to help restaurants homes, even more now than ever, especially with COVID. operate, especially in the winter season? Can you expand PSWs are the backbone of health care, and you must a little bit more? This is a great suggestion. There is no change it, not only for us, but for our clients. monopoly on a good idea, and so we’re always willing to PSWs need sick days. We don’t have any sick days. take things into consideration. There are no sick days for PSWs, and with the times, with Mr. Rick Conard: Thank you for the opportunity. One COVID, we need sick days. of the challenges we face is that these tents that are being Retirement pension: Believe it or not, we don’t have a erected in the expanded dining areas for restaurants really retirement pension. are not able to meet the Ontario building code compliance There is a major shortage of PSWs. Right now, where I requirements for environmental loading. Tents were never am working, we have only 14 PSWs to cover all of intended to be a four-season type of structure. Primarily, Timmins. what we have difficulty with is getting any sort of design More stability with wages: The wage enhancement that or certification that they can withstand the snow loads that they gave us is nice, but it’s not permanent—and full-time are anticipated over the winter. hours. In addition to that, there are flame-spread rating At this moment, I’ll welcome any questions. requirements, which I don’t think would be a wise thing to The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so overlook, but that requirement is easily achieved. There much. We’ll start the questions now. are several tent companies that do provide NFPA ratings We’ll start the first set of questions with the that do meet the building code requirements. The chal- government. MPP Kusendova. lenge that we have is that the Ontario building code 1610 requires a building permit for any tent that is erected closer Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Yes, hi. Good afternoon. than three metres to a building or another tent or is greater Thank you to all of our presenters. I represent Mississauga than 60 metres squared in area. Centre. It is our neighbouring city. Of course, together Once the requirement for a permit is there, the re- with Caledon, we form the region of Peel, so I work very quirement to meet the standards of the building code are closely with my colleagues, including our chair, when it applied. So notwithstanding the idea that a flame-spread comes to things that affect all of us at the region of Peel. I rating is certainly, from an occupant safety perspective, a know that, especially now, it’s a very difficult time with good thing to have, the snow-loading requirements that are many challenges for our community, as we are in the grey there in the building code are almost impossible to meet. lockdown zone. Each and every day, these are discussions What we need is some way for the building divisions that we’re having within caucus with our Premier and throughout Ontario to be able to successfully issue permits Minister of Health, because we know that businesses, for these tents or for the province to say, notwithstanding people, families, seniors—everyone is greatly impacted. something similar to what they did for the expansion of Everyone is in our thoughts and prayers every single day temporary areas for hospitals, that they will overlook the as we make these very challenging and tough decisions. requirement for building permits—

F-3138 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Can you please Mr. Rick Conard: —for the time being, provided that speak closer to the mike or the phone? you meet a minimum standard, such as the flame-spread Interjection. rating for the tent fabric, keeping in mind that we have to The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): No, sorry, we balance occupant safety with the legal aspects of actually can’t hear you. Unfortunately, the time is up too, so we’ll complying with the building code. have to come back to you in the second round, maybe. I think what we’re suggesting as a chief building Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Sorry about that. official group—and I can represent a large majority; we The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’ll go to the had a discussion with 40 other building officials just opposition now. MPP Shaw. yesterday on this issue—is that what we need is for the Ms. Sandy Shaw: Chair, has Darla resolved her audio ministry to either enact some temporary measure to waive yet? Darla, are you there? the snow-loading requirements that are in the building Ms. Darla Fiset: I’m trying to resolve my audio. code to allow us to issue permits or to, say, permit smoking Ms. Sandy Shaw: Okay. When you get that fixed, we’ll requirements for tents for a period of time, provided that come back to you. In the interim, I’d like to— there’s not an unsafe condition created. So I think those Ms. Darla Fiset: [Inaudible]. are two options that maybe we can explore a little bit to Ms. Sandy Shaw: Oh? Right. I’m going to address my facilitate these enclosures and allow these restaurants to questions to the city of Brampton. continue to operate with safe distancing. Thank you very much for your presentation and also Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Thank you very much. We’re thank you for your presentation at the finance committee certainly happy to bring this forward to the government hearings. I’m going to pick up on your comments with and to the appropriate minister for consideration. regard to schedule 6. Essentially, almost 99% of the people I wanted to spend a little bit of time with Darla, the who have come before this committee are opposed to this. PSW. First of all, I want to say a huge thank you for There are people from all walks of life who are opposed to everything that you’re doing supporting our seniors, it: big city mayors, mayors from small communities. The supporting our most vulnerable. When I was in nursing city of Hamilton issued a unanimous resolution opposing school, I learned a great deal, a lot from our PSWs. You these schedules. Monsieur Beaudoin talked about 10,000 are part of the team. We couldn’t do our work without you. of his members that are opposed to this. The outcry is The PSWs we have in my emergency room where I work, huge. These are from people who are just opposed to a they’re instrumental in helping me work with my patients. government meddling in environmental protections. You’re truly part of the team and you have invaluable I want to ask you, from a good policy perspective, from skills and knowledge. Thank you for everything that good land use planning—you spent a lot of time, money you’re doing. and effort to build networks with the conservation author- We know that PSWs are the backbone of our health care ities that have the expertise in keeping the infrastructure system. That’s why during this pandemic, our government that cities rely on safe. I mean, we know there’s flooding. has endeavoured to support PSWs with things like a There’s shore erosion. Municipalities all across the prov- temporary wage increase, pandemic pay, also access to ince struggle to try and keep their infrastructure in good personal protective equipment etc. working order, good working repair. We know that health care in Ontario exists like an Can you just speak to how this sudden schedule ecosystem, so if there is a part— embedded in a budget bill—has it upended or put into risk The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. all of the work that you do, to do science-based, evidence- Ms. Natalia Kusendova: —in the health care system based collaborative planning? Gurdeep, perhaps? You that’s not functioning, it’s like a domino effect. That’s why mentioned the land use planning. we’ve endeavoured, with the Minister of Health, to trans- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Does anyone want form our health care system and to embed all industries to respond? together under one team, which is Ontario Health—this Ms. Sandy Shaw: Anybody? My question is to the city will include home care—and that’s why we’re building of Brampton, if anybody wants to— Ontario health teams across Ontario. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): You have to Do you think that’s a good idea for our patients and unmute from your end. families, that we’ll have one Ontario health team Ms. Sandy Shaw: Bueller? Bueller? responsible for a patient, whether they are at home or in 1620 the hospital? Do you think this health care transformation The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Rick, do you want will be beneficial for PSWs and patients? to answer? Whoever wants to answer, please unmute from Ms. Darla Fiset: [Inaudible]. your end. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Ms. Fiset, we Ms. Sandy Shaw: I’m going to go to Darla now, I can’t hear you properly. Your voice is breaking up. think. What is going on, city of Brampton? Interjection. Ms. Clare Burnett: I think Rick is trying to unmute The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): No, we can barely himself to be able to respond to your questions. Sorry, hear you. please move past us and we’ll get someone— Ms. Natalia Kusendova: We can’t hear you. Mr. Rick Conard: There. I’m unmuted. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3139 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): You’re unmuted to strip away, centralize and really send up, more and more now; we can hear you. problems will arise. More blind spots will come forward. Ms. Sandy Shaw: You’re up. Hit it, Rick. Hit it hard. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. Mr. Rick Conard: I apologize. Clearly, technology is Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: So having those integrated not my forte. I’m going to take a stab at responding to this. relationships is really, really important at a local level. I am not a planner, but I do work in concert with planning Ms. Sandy Shaw: I know my constituents are outraged on a regular basis, and I’m heavily involved in their and irate by this. How are your members feeling about the processes. sense of confidence and trust that this government even We do have a very strong partnership with all of the understands climate? conservation authorities in the city of Brampton. In Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: The fact that we could get particular, I know Brampton has been subject to some 10,000 in one week is already pretty unusual, even for us. serious flooding in the past. Right now, we have very On this issue, whether it’s climate or biodiversity, there extensive environmental assessments under way that seems to constantly be this interesting antagonism that you involve rerouting and expansion of floodways within can’t have both, but you can. It’s not about trying to strip Brampton, particularly within the downtown core and out away those safeguards we have; it’s about how you tie towards the Bramalea City Centre, to allow some signifi- them together. How do you, again, find the right balance? cant economic investment and development of our city. Right now, we do not have the right balance in Ontario, Those partnerships are founded, as you’ve noted, on very especially when it comes to not just nature as an essential heavy investment in scientific studies, flood mapping and utility, but nature—because we used to have a tag line, running modelling of what the effects will be throughout “Yours to Discover,” right? the city. A lot of our land has been tied up from investment Ms. Sandy Shaw: We got rid of that. because of those reasons. Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: What do we have to discover So we really respect the relationship that we have with if it’s all gone? That’s not today it’s all gone; it’s tomor- our conservation authorities. They have been nothing but row, the next tomorrow, the seven generations. partners in looking for solutions to allow development in The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so a responsible fashion. I think that’s the important side of much. I apologize to cut you off. it. They are not currently a barrier to where we want to go; Ms. Sandy Shaw: I think this government got rid of they’re a partner. We work together to find solutions that that tag line as well. will allow economic investment and development within The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Sorry, the time the city, but do it in a responsible manner that won’t affect has come up. We’ll have to move to the independent in an ill manner ourselves or anybody who happens to be members now. MPP Hunter. downstream of us. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I’d like to start with Darla, if we Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you—I see mine was muted could just bring her back. Hi, Darla. We’re going to now as well, so it’s the audio gremlin today. unmute you, and if you could just say hello. I’m just going to move very quickly in the short time Ms. Darla Fiset: Hello. that I have left—although, Chair, I would plead for a little Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Okay, so I can hear you. I’m more time given all those audio difficulties. Put some hoping that we can proceed, maybe slowly. I really want more time on the clock. to thank you and your colleagues, the 14 of you who are The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Two minutes. working as PSWs in Timmins and servicing the whole area Ms. Sandy Shaw: To the David Suzuki Foundation, I all on your own. I know that you’re working with some of would like to get you to weigh in, following up with what the most vulnerable people and you’re working with them the city of Brampton has just said on ways that good in the most personal way, so I want to thank you for planning decisions are made. choosing this as your career and the excellent way that you In addition to schedule 6, I would just like to say to all and your colleagues conduct yourselves. I know it’s been municipalities: Look out, because an MZO is coming to a difficult with the threat always there of COVID-19 and it’s community near you any time. The government is using been very challenging in the home care space. I agree with MZOs, for example, in Duffins Creek in Ajax, on a you; I believe that it has to be a continuum of care that provincially significant wetland, and in Stratford, on includes all of the care settings, including home care, that environmentally sensitive lands. We think the Integrity need greater investment, funding and support. Commissioner should be examining how this decision was The government had an opportunity in the budget, made. which we are thinking about with Bill 229, to make greater Can you just talk about how, with schedule 6 and investments in training for PSWs and in improving the MZOs, this government is steamrolling over our environ- numbers of PSWs that we have in this province. Can you mental planning and protections? speak to us from a northern perspective in terms of the Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: I think I would just bring it skills shortage in that area and the demand that you see, down to the fact that local knows best, right? The closer being a practitioner on the ground every day? you are to an issue, the closer you are to a problem, the Ms. Darla Fiset: Well, as for the shortage, if somebody more exponential the increase in the amount of local is away, missing for a day, then clients right now in our knowledge and experience that comes into that. If you start area get missed. They get missed. This [inaudible] with

F-3140 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 clients can’t be missed, can’t be left alone. We need more decades of that kind of relationship coming onto the front qualified workers, not workers that are half-formed, half- lines of climate change. assed and rushed in to order, because now what they’re I’m pretty sure we all agree around this room that there doing is they’re getting workers that are half-formed, half- are the effects of climate change. We’re now living in assed and rushed to order, and they don’t know what to do. them. They’re not avoidable anymore. So if we want to We need workers who know what to do and need to plan these things properly, both in the short term and long problem-think. term, really centralizing that is going to be a way to do it? Ms. Mitzie Hunter: And do you agree that perhaps Obviously not. Evidence is all over the world of what improving the level of training and qualifications and pay happens when you start to put climate change pieces at a for PSWs is needed in the province? very far, distant and a very quantitative aspect to it when Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes, certainly. you’re trying to do adaptation planning in particular. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Okay. That’s something that I Resilience is also not just the hard infrastructure when support as well, and I know that it was something that was it comes to climate change. Resilience is local community. being worked on. Our hope is that we will continue to see Resilience is culture. Resilience is being able to adapt to investments in PSWs. the different shocks that come from weathering a storm. I just want to confirm my agreement with your call for It’s not just the science. It’s not just the technology. sick days for people right now, especially during the Really, it is about local community. Who is better set to do pandemic, for those who have none— that? The relationships between the conservation author- Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes, we have none. ities and local municipalities—they are the best equipped Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Yes—to make permanent the hero to do this. pay, because you’re on the front line of care. Mr. Ian Arthur: Thank you. I appreciate that. I want The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. to talk a little bit as well about when you were mentioning Ms. Mitzie Hunter: That increase should not be growth and how growth plays out and the need for more temporary; it should be permanent. I just want to make nuanced understanding of that. Do you read Mariana sure I catch all of your terrific ideas here: the full-time Mazzucato, her work on how to stimulate economic hours, making more full-time hours so you are able to have activity, from a government’s perspective, with targeted a more stable income. investments and the more nuanced relationship that she Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes. Being a PSW, our hours are finds exists? This is a little bit outside of the scope of this sometimes choppy. We’re not always permanent, espe- committee, but I wonder if the Chair will allow me to ask cially in home care, because our clients pass away and they that question. die. Sometimes, it’s hard to get our hours back up. In times Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: I think in a way it actually is of COVID, sometimes it’s hard to get hours back up, within the scope of the committee, when you look at a very especially now with COVID, because we can’t have two macro sense of what you’re trying to achieve in a jobs. Some of the retirement homes are closed right now, government budget bill, right? What is the responsibility so getting the hours is a struggle right now. of government? Is it to grow things more or to grow things Ms. Mitzie Hunter: It’s hard to make ends meet. better? I think that’s a lot of the work that Mazzucato, but Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes, it’s very hard to make ends meet, I also work a lot with Kate Raworth, on different types especially with a family of four children, which I have. of—and these are not anti-growth people, right? It’s The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so redefining what is growth. much. To me, it’s not just about the environment. Darla is a Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Thanks, Darla. great example of value in this disequilibrium of how we The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): The time has value the things that are meaningful in our economy. At come up. the moment, the valued are a lot of these things that We’ll go back to the opposition for the second round. generate more income and bigger revenues and big profits, MPP Arthur. but the meaningful is literally front-line workers like 1630 Darla, who still have to fight for a small increase in pay. Mr. Ian Arthur: Thank you very much. Yannick, I’m Or for us allowing forestry companies to have free rein in going to start with you. You talked a little bit about the our forests, that’s actually the non-value; the non- seven generations of thinking. But some of the conse- meaningful parts of our economy are doing those things, quences of schedule 6 could be far more immediate than right? How do you recalibrate, basically, our economic that. As we see in flood plain maps being updated across thinking to help realize that those things that are most Canada, there are entire swaths of houses that will no meaningful in our lives should be the things the economy longer be able to receive flood insurance right now. Would values most? That is not happening, and it hasn’t you just elaborate on the short-sightedness of that while I happened, really, ever. have a quick sip of water? So it’s not an anti thing; I don’t want to leave that Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: Again, I think it still comes impression, that it’s anti-growth or anti-neo-liberalism. It down to how by having schedule 6, you’re eroding the has nothing to do with that. It’s if we can imagine an knowledge. You’re eroding the local experience. You’re economy today and we redesigned it altogether, would we eroding—figuratively eroding and literally eroding— still have the same basic rules? Probably not. We’d be able 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3141 to come up with something a lot better that would actually Ms. Darla Fiset: I don’t know if they’re not listening. value people like Darla, that would value the natural assets It’s just that they’re stalling. and the nature that we have in Ontario at a very high level. Ms. Sandy Shaw: At the end of the day, whether Then the destructive pieces that we still need—I was in they’re not listening or they’re stalling, it makes no mining for 10 years; I know we need mining. difference to you because you’re not getting the help you The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. need. You’re not getting— Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: It’s not about mining or The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. forestry; it’s over-mining and over-forestry. That’s the Ms. Sandy Shaw: Listen, we’ve been advocating for problem we’re trying to recalibrate. years— Mr. Ian Arthur: Thank you very much. That’s very The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you, MPP interesting. Shaw. Sorry to cut you off. The time has come up. I don’t have any more questions, Chair. I don’t know if We’ll go to the independent members now for their MPP Shaw had a question for Darla but couldn’t get it out? second round. MPP Hunter. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw? Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I’m going to go straight to Ms. Sandy Shaw: I’d like to just say to Darla, again, Yannick, if I can. I wanted to hear your perspective on absolutely you are the backbone of this system. I love removing the current appeals process, which was the when I hear PSWs say they love their work because what Mining and Lands Tribunal. There was already a built-in they love are the residents that they serve. That is so appeals process within the ministry, and circumventing heartwarming. And, yes, you’re absolutely the backbone that now, ascribing to the minister—and even being able to permit, bypassing conservation authorities and going of the system, but in COVID, the first wave highlighted directly for permit to the minister. the circumstances in which you work. You’re underpaid; Also, the introduction of local planning tribunals: I was you’re overworked. We know that, and we’re very dis- curious as to your thoughts on that, and tying the duty of appointed that this government did not take an opportunity members explicitly towards the municipality in which they in this budget to provide you not just with a temporary pay are appointed rather than to the board as a whole, which is adjustment, but permanent. the normal duty of care and fiduciary responsibilities of The most current independent, verified figures are that good governance. Go ahead. this government is still sitting on $9.3 billion. This is a Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: Thank you, MPP Hunter, for government that voted in favour of our opposition day that. Some of them I might not be able to get too deeply motion to fund four hours of hands-on care. Their own into detail, but let’s say on the centralization of those independent commission urgently said that they needed to authorities to the provincial level, when it comes especial- fund four hours of hands-on care, and this government ly to anything extractive—and again, to me it comes down doesn’t do that. Essentially, this government is saying to to, we’re always stuck in this ideological kind of people like you that you’re on your own and that you need antagonism. Sometimes, you’ll get a lot of local influence to wait longer for help. How does that make you feel, and ability to make local democratic decisions on what Darla? kind of activities happen in a certain area, and then Ms. Darla Fiset: You mean waiting on my own for suddenly it flips back to, “Oh, no, we have to take away help? the red tape. We have to make it easier for business.” Ms. Sandy Shaw: Yes. Business is great. Like I said, I was in the private sector Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes, most times, our clients—we for 10 years; I was in mining. I know that experience and can’t service them all. We were given a choice, but sorry, I loved every minute of it. I thought we did a pretty good I can’t do everything. I’ve been doing eight, nine or 10 job. But if ever we were given an inch, we would take that hours a day, and I can’t do everything. inch. If we were given two inches, we would take the two The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. inches—not because it was a desire to wake up in the Ms. Sandy Shaw: Everyone was hoping, knowing that morning and put big holes wherever we could and make we call you “front-line heroes,” which you absolutely are, as much money. It was much more of, “Well, it’s there, that this government would understand the lessons that we we’re allowed. It’s legal. It’s no problem, right? So it’s all learned. The Canadian Armed Forces, for heaven’s sakes, good; it must be good. Somebody must be watching over went in and documented atrocious conditions, and this.” atrocious conditions for PSWs who are doing their best. I think, in the end, if we cannot find some kind of a Really, I would plead with this government to listen to common ground, regardless of ideologies, to say, “Look, folks like you, Darla, who are on the front line, who are for the last couple hundred years, we have not done a good the backbone. You need help and you need it now, not job”—I would not be here talking to this panel today about somewhere down the road, not in the— climate change, biodiversity loss, over-extraction of Ms. Darla Fiset: Yes, we are very short on workers. forests and over-mining etc. if we had found the right Ms. Sandy Shaw: Yes. You work short all the time. balance. Clearly we haven’t. Ms. Darla Fiset: We have 14 workers in Timmins. 1640 That’s not good enough to cover all of Timmins. So rather than say, “Okay, well, one person can now Ms. Sandy Shaw: Why do you think the government make this decision or can override”—why would that one isn’t listening? person have better knowledge or experience? They don’t.

F-3142 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 Right? Whereas if you have a plurality of voices that to the committee. We’ll be happy to show you the understand their local realities and communities, whether commitment of $7.5 billion in new funding, $1.75 billion it’s the conservation authorities working with cities on in new funding for the long-term-care sector. This is on climate adaptation issues or whether it’s some kind of a top of the record spending that—year over year, we have local participation in deciding whether a mining activity increases in every out year on the funding for the long- or a forestry activity goes forward, there’s a lot more long- term-care sector on the macro level. So the relief is term value in that localization. coming, and I just wanted to take this moment to thank COVID was an interesting piece. Before COVID, any- you for the hard work that you do every single day. thing to do with localization was considered anti- Moving to the city of Brampton: It’s nice to see some neoliberal and anti-capitalist. Globalization is good. familiar faces. It seems like a decade ago that we were Everything else was protectionism. having our pre-budget consultations, in January of this The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. year. I really do appreciate the hard work you are going Dr. Yannick Beaudoin: Suddenly, COVID hits and through now with the front lines in our municipality just now we’re hearing from all kinds of government sides above Mississauga. about how it’s important to have local capacity, local I’m wondering if maybe some of our friends from the manufacturing, localization. It’s amazing what one crisis economic development branch could speak to some of the did to suddenly change that definition a little bit, that recent measures we’ve announced in the budget. This is something that used to be called protectionism is now crucial. Obviously, the priority now, as we’re going localization. through the second wave, is to protect and support, but This applies across all of these things. Take advantage there will be a time, and I hope really soon, when COVID- of this moment that suddenly has helped us realize it’s not 19 is in our rear-view mirror. When that time comes, every okay to centralize and it is a very anti-democratic process. jurisdiction on this planet will be competing for an edge. But more than that, it puts a lot of liability on one person’s There are some permanent measures in this budget. I shoulders. Are they really going to take that responsibil- speak to the BET in particular, which will save businesses ity? Probably not. in Brampton alone, commercial properties, over $17 Ms. Mitzie Hunter: That’s really great. I think one of million, and then we’ve got some industrial businesses that the things that COVID has shown is the valuing of people will save something like $27 million. Of course, these are like Darla who are the front-line health care workers, the permanent measures, which I believe will help small truck drivers, the grocery store clerks—all of these front- businesses in Brampton. line people who kept our society going. While the rest of But I’m wondering if we could talk about the small us worked from home and kind of huddled, they braved all business tax class. What sort of conversations have you of the elements to keep society going. We need to value had around this? I know Mayor Tory was asking for this that. I strongly agree with that sentiment and— measure to be introduced to provide the municipality with The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you, MPP more tools to provide relief to small businesses. And if you Hunter. The time has come up. haven’t had conversations on that particular act, I’m We’ll move to the government side. MPP Cho. wondering if you’ve had discussions about other measures Mr. Stan Cho: Thank you to all the presenters for that might be helpful for businesses in Brampton. coming this afternoon. I just have a comment for Darla, Ms. Clare Burnett: Thank you very much for the and then my questions will be for the city of Brampton. question. It’s Clare Burnett. I will answer first and then Darla, let me start by thanking you for your tireless pass it over to my colleague Paul who works on more of efforts. Certainly, our government believes that actions the industrial projects. speak louder than words. While the members opposite are We have been receiving very good feedback from small criticizing the current system, let’s remember that they had businesses in the city very grateful for the work that the almost two decades to help you and to help your industry, government has been doing for small businesses, in and they didn’t. There are pages in this budget, which the particular the recent funding: the main street funding, the members opposite are not talking about, which outline funding for PPE. There are some challenges, especially record spending to improve your working conditions, to with the restaurant sector or for micro-sized businesses, make sure that we are committed to that nation-leading that continue to exist, but overall I would say that the four hours of care per resident in our long-term-care funding for small businesses has been very well received, homes. There is funding attached to this. and businesses are very grateful for that. We just had the member from Scarborough–Guildwood On the act that was, I believe, passed today, the Sup- speaking to this issue, and I want to remind everyone she porting Local Restaurants Act, that will offer a fair bit of was the former Associate Minister of Finance. Certainly, relief for restaurants as well with the cap on service she would understand the complexities of government delivery and fines that were in the act. We’re absolutely financing. I’ve gone through the records. There was no looking to advocate for help. The sick days continue to be funding attached in the previous government’s commit- an issue for our larger employers, the rapid testing for our ment to actually helping your industry through real dollars, larger employers. through real support. The business tax question: We have not had conversa- That funding is in this budget. If you need those tions on that as of yet but I’d be very, very happy to, and resources, I am happy to point you to them. Just reach out then follow up with you afterwards to let you know some 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3143 of the feedback. We have round table conversations with another MPP’s erroneous statements or records? Because our small businesses often, so that is certainly something that’s happened to me a number of times, including we could bring forward. comments that were made by MPP Smith. So I’m just The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. curious if you could clarify what the order is, what the rule Mr. Stan Cho: Paul, did you want to add to that before would be. I move on? The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Disagreement on Mr. Paul Aldunate: Yes. Thank you, Clare. Through the facts is not a valid point of order, but you can definitely the Chair, just on the industrial side of things, one of the correct your record or correct someone’s record in your things we’re really noticing in Brampton are that vacancy time, whatever time is allocated to you. rates are so, so low these days. It’s incredible how much 1650 of the industrial space has been taken up and is being Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you, Chair. sought after. They’re being bid on, and then there are some The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Cho, you landowners who are being pursued on many, many fronts have 30 seconds. by industrial developers who are looking for space. Mr. Stan Cho: Yes, I’ll conclude— A lot of them are in e-commerce and the e-commerce The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Hunter, do area, which is—again, being situated where it is, close to you have another point of order? the airport, close to the GTA and with such a large Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Sorry, Chair. MPP Cho attributed population to take advantage of it, e-commerce has really, certain statements directly to me and I would like to have really taken off, even during the pandemic. I mean, every- the opportunity to correct that record, particularly because one was ordering online. You’re going to see it during Darla is here and he attributed certain statements that were Christmas, during the holidays, that a lot of people are incorrect— ordering online rather than doing shopping because that’s The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Hunter, as I basically the only choice they have. That’s not going to mentioned, this is not a valid point of order. You will have stop. I think we see the signs of how healthy the e- the opportunity when the time comes. When you have the commerce sector is. I think the pandemic is something that time for questions, you can correct that, but not at the really shows that and really makes that come through. moment. Thank you. Mr. Stan Cho: That’s great, Paul. Realizing we’re I believe we’re almost out of time, so limited on time here, I’d like to extend an offer to you. I Mr. Stan Cho: I’d like to thank everyone for appearing today. To the city come from the small business world, a small mom-and- of Brampton, we appreciate all the hard work. We look pop shop. I watched my parents toil with everything they forward to your ideas to help your small businesses and, had to try and make a living for me and my siblings. So I one day, for Ontario to thrive once again. Thank you. know running a business is hard at the best of times, let alone during a globally uncertain pandemic. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): That concludes Some of the best ideas we’ve been able to come up with our time as well. I want to thank all three presenters for throughout COVID-19 have literally come from the appearing before the committee and for your presentations. grassroots, from the very businesses, and you have that direct contact with them. So, Paul, what I’m hoping for— MR. GARY HUGGINS and I heard an idea I hadn’t heard before from your colleague Rick—is please, through the Ministry of ONTARIO COALITION Finance— FOR SMOKE-FREE MOVIES The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Sorry, MPP Cho. MS. PEGGY HUTCHISON I apologize to cut you off. MPP Hunter, do you have a point of order? The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): For the 5 p.m. Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I do, Chair. I have a point of order. slot, we will start with Gary Huggins first. If you can MPP Cho brought my record forward as part of the former please state your name for the record, and you will have government. I want to have the opportunity to correct that seven minutes for your presentation. record, because I don’t think that the people on the— Mr. Gary Huggins: Thank you. Can everyone hear The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Hunter, this me? is not a valid point of order. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Yes, we can. MPP Cho, you may continue. Mr. Gary Huggins: Okay, thank you. My name is Mr. Stan Cho: Thank you. Just to finish that thought, Gary Huggins. I live in Etobicoke. I am retired; I am a Paul and Clare, if there are ideas on the micro level, those senior. In the past, I’ve used many forms of insurance to specifics—I mean, the takeout of alcohol literally came support me and my family both personally and profession- from the finance committee to the AGCO—I would ally, either as insurance that would pay off for life appreciate those ideas. Certainly, in the limited time we insurance or key man insurance and company. So I view have left, I’m not expecting— the insurance thing as very critical. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): You have 30 My concern today is that in the current budget, in seconds. MPP Shaw has a point of order too, it looks like. schedule 22, clauses 4 and 5, I think there is a little jump Ms. Sandy Shaw: I guess it’s a point of information. ahead of what would be prudent in terms of examining the Can you clarify, Chair, if an MPP can attempt to correct actual legislation and instead jumping ahead and basically

F-3144 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 taking away the rights of the life-insured to use certain benefits for over one million Ontarians, transfer the value facilities that they bought with their insurance policies. of those benefits to shareholders of insurance companies I know there have been a couple of other people talking, and offer no compensation? but I would like to argue that this matter should be My ask to all parties is to remove clauses 4 and 5 from properly studied. All parties should look at it. You’re schedule 22 and refer them for further study. Thank you. basically taking away contractual rights from individuals The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so who were sold these policies on the basis of having those much. capabilities and rights. I think we should study that in more Next, I will call upon the Ontario Coalition for Smoke- detail, make sure that is being done more. Free Movies. If you can please state your name for the This is a proposal to amend the Insurance Act, a record, and you will have seven minutes for your consumer protection statute. While it may not be obvious, presentation. these proposed amendments actually take away the rights Mr. Michael Perley: Thank you. I’m Michael Perley. of close to a million Ontario policyholders who purchased I am not officially representing the Ontario Coalition for these policies. Smoke-Free Movies because I’m retired, but before I The proposal will limit seniors’ rights to invest in a retired, I was co-chair of the coalition. universal life policy, which was sold as an investment and I’d like to speak today about serious concerns that I an insurance vehicle, and now it’s being limited. In some have about the public health impact of the proposed Film cases, it’s being limited, I believe, because some of these Content Information Act, which is contained in schedule policies provide interest rates of anywhere from 3%, 4% 12 of the budget bill. This new act is intended to replace or 5%, which makes them quite attractive for the people the former provincial Film Classification Act, which who have the policies but unattractive for the companies required that ratings and film content information had to that have sold them. I’m not sure how this is presented as be provided to moviegoers. something that goes against the rights and it protects seniors. The statutes are intended to protect the consumer, From years of research by the Ontario Tobacco not the insurance companies. Research Unit at the University of Toronto, we know that The language revokes existing contractual rights, movies are a powerful tool for promoting tobacco use. A benefits which enable Ontario seniors to prudently invest substantial body of scientific evidence indicates that their money in Ontario insurance companies. I implore exposure to smoking in movies is a cause of smoking members of all parties to take a close look at the language. initiation and progression to regular smoking among I’m not questioning whether it should be looked at. I’m youth. We also know that the tobacco industry has spent simply saying that jumping to it and making changes right millions of dollars over the past several decades to develop away without adequate study is a problem. I think the and maintain the portrayal of smoking in movies. Tobacco public needs to get more involved in this and the members companies have paid film producers to feature specific need to study this more. tobacco brands and have funded advertising campaigns for It’s not a party issue. Your constituents all have insur- film studios’ latest films and their top stars. ance policies. There are a lot of these policies out here. I’m The proposed legislation, called the Film Content concerned that we’re going to take away all the rights that Information Act, will almost certainly allow more young were provided by these contracts. Ontarians to see more tobacco use, but also see more This is a matter of public interest, in principle. A graphic violence, more illegal substance use and other million Ontario voters are affected by the proposal. The risky behaviours without any qualifiers. proposal, which needs to be removed from the budget and I have some specific concerns about the bill itself. In studied by experts effectively, prevents insurance subsection 4(1)(1), there appears to be a statement that it companies from honouring existing contracts. I never like is the exhibitor of films—that is, whoever is running the to see contracts being quashed when, somewhere along the chain or the individual movie theatre or the chain of way, they’ve been accepted and people have based their theatres—that, and the phrase is, “reasonably determines” purchase on it. what information about the film and its contents “would The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. be relevant to persons who may intend to view the film.” Mr. Gary Huggins: So far, I see no evidence that will Information about the risks of tobacco use, graphic prevent predatory practices by companies or individuals. violence, drug use or other high-risk behaviours may thus Have you seen any evidence to support this assertion? be provided, but only through a decision by the There are strict measures in the Insurance Act that prohibit exhibitor—and I want to emphasize that—rather than by predatory behaviour, like trafficking of life settlements. any impartial public health authority with relevant There is no evidence available at this time. expertise. This means that movies with smoking or drug I sincerely hope that the government members, who use and/or any number of behaviours damaging to public represent a majority of this committee, will see that this is health, and especially to young people’s public health, not a party issue. I certainly share your values. This matter may be shown with no warnings and no qualification. does not go to anything other than common sense. It does, Further compounding this risk is the use of the word though, need your support to send it back for further study. “reasonably,” which excuses any failure to provide the Why would any government want to take away insurance information. 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3145 Further on in the legislation, subsection 4(2)(2) only The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so provides “examples”—that’s the term used in the legis- much. lation—of information that could be included in content All right, we’re running ahead of time. We are missing information. Disclosure of these items is not mandatory. the first presenter for the 5 p.m. slot, so we’ll be taking They are offered merely as examples of the kind of infor- three minutes’ recess. We’ll be back in three minutes. mation the exhibitor might “reasonably determine” is The committee recessed from 1704 to 1707. relevant. Leaving the disclosure of film content up to the The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you, and exhibitors and providing no details about content that must welcome back. We’ll go to our next presenter, Peggy be disclosed will lead to inconsistencies in the information Hutchison. If you can please state your name for the provided about films. There will be no admission limits to record, and you will have seven minutes for your theatres through ratings, and parents will be unable to rely presentation. on film labelling to make informed viewing decisions Ms. Peggy Hutchison: Hello. Have I unmuted myself? either for themselves or for their kids. Is that correct? 1700 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Yes, we can hear The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. you. Mr. Michael Perley: This approach does not serve the Ms. Peggy Hutchison: Oh, good. I was going to say public interest and right to know if a film contains imagery that I’m not used to doing this very often, so thank you for that has scientifically been proven to increase the risk of a letting me address you today. young person emulating a behaviour or using a product I live at the headwaters of the Nottawasaga River. I’m that has serious implications for their health and that may on the Mad River; my farm is Mad Ness Farm—I did not lead to premature death. name the river. I live in what used to be Osprey township, Now, in section 4(2)(1) under the soon-to-be-repealed which is actually the headwaters of four major rivers in Ontario Film Classification Act, age classifications were southern Ontario—the Nottawasaga, the Grand, the applied to films based on content. For example, excessive Saugeen and the Grey Sauble—and others. What I am ad- use of coarse language would mean a film would not be dressing you about today, as part of this Bill 229, is rated for children or youth. The age rating system schedule 6—and also schedule 8, to do with forestry, but disappears with repeal of the Film Classification Act and focusing on schedule 6, which is really discontinuing implementation of the Film Content Information Act. This conservation authorities, as far as I can see. means that films with adult content, such as tobacco use or I just came back from Collingwood. I picked up a copy graphic violence, will not receive a rating and will not be of the most recent On The Bay, which goes to residents in restricted to adult audiences. This change eliminates the the Georgian Triangle, which goes from Wasaga Beach all incentive the film industry has to ensure adult content, like the way over to Meaford. The headline is “High Water”: tobacco use, is left out of movies intended for children or Can we hold back the flood? Georgian Bay is part of the youth viewers. Great Lakes. All these main rivers flow into the Great I recommend that the government consider the Lakes. following: that the Film Content Information Act be Our municipality, last year, got wind that the Ontario amended to require that, at a minimum, film content government was thinking of discontinuing conservation information be provided to the public consistently, using authorities. As I say, our little township would have a all the current indicators under the FCA, such as coarse representative on each of those. It’s not on the Grand, language and violence, but also including tobacco product because there are no houses where the headwaters of the use and vaping. I also recommend that the appropriate Grand River are, but the Grand River headwaters are right ministry immediately convene a group of scientific and next to me. Their letter, dated October 2, 2020, was public health experts to develop a comprehensive and addressed to our local MPP, Bill Walker, as well as to the evidence-based list of content that would be required to be Honourable Jeff Yurek, Premier Doug Ford and the disclosed to the public about every film and, finally, that Association of Municipalities of Ontario, and then these the appropriate ministry immediately establish a four conservation authorities. consultation process to evaluate the effectiveness of an I just briefly was checking, and the town of Col- age-based rating system for films depicting tobacco use lingwood and other municipalities have all expressed the and other high-risk behaviour. same complete horror that somebody would think of dis- In summary, there are very large public health continuing the role of conservation authorities. I want to implications in repealing the Film Classification Act of highlight their resolution. It says: 2005 and replacing it with the Film Content Information “Whereas each CA provides the municipality of Grey Act. The public and especially parents deserve to be Highlands with expert advice on the environmental impact consistently and accurately informed about movie content of land use planning proposals and that the municipality like tobacco use so they can make informed viewing does not have staff with comparable expertise or ex- choices for themselves and their children. Movies are a perience;... clear influencer on youth and can lead to dangerous and “Therefore be it resolved that the municipality of Grey life-threatening addictions and behaviours. Thank you Highlands supports continuation of the programs and very much. services of the three CAs, both mandatory and non-

F-3146 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 mandatory, and that no programs or services of” Grey lifted the hazard land on the lower Duffins Creek. That’s Sauble, Nottawasaga Valley, Saugeen Valley “or of other part of the Great Lakes, and that’s why I say the headline CAs in Ontario be ‘wound down’ at this time.” in this magazine: What can we do about the high waters? 1710 Well, if we don’t have scientific people in every conserv- I should say that in—oh, I forget; it’s a long time ago— ation authority across southern Ontario, we’re in a lot 1990, perhaps, I was a provincial member of the worse trouble. I mean, it’s hard enough dealing with what Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority. My farm is we have. at the headwaters of it; Wasaga Beach is at the bottom. I When somebody buys a piece of land that’s cheap: would meet people who would say, “We count on what “Great, I want to develop it.” Well, you can’t because it’s you people do or do not do up at the top.” We’re about zoned hazard. “Oh, well, we’ll just take the hazard zoning 1,500 feet higher than Wasaga Beach. off.” Excuse me? That cost is not going to get picked up On my farm, I have a gate that goes into my barnyard by the developer down the road. It’s going to get picked that’s rails. One year, there was something wrong with it. up by municipal taxpayers, provincial taxpayers, and I’m I put in a different gate that was more solid. You can’t surprised Quebec hasn’t said something— imagine the difference that made, just in one little piece of The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. I property, to the water. apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. We’ll start with the questions now. We’ll start the first Ms. Peggy Hutchison: People would look at this round with the independent members. MPP Hunter, are property and think, “What water?” Well, come back in you there? January and February when the water table is high, when Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I am, Chair. I am here. we have a ton of snow like we do today—which was why I just wanted to use this opportunity—and sadly, it has I was late getting back to be part of this meeting—and to come out of my allotted time for the witness hearings. I maybe it rains. You have water. You just can’t even really felt that, according to the standing orders and the believe where there is water. There is a virtual river that rules that govern this House, which are the same for cattle have drowned in between my house and barn. In committees, the member was making allegations that were July, you would say, “What river?” You would never even false, that did not reflect facts, and also addressed me know it. Multiply this all across southern Ontario. directly. That’s against the standing orders and the rules I grew up in Richmond Hill. I remember 1954 when that govern this Legislature and the conduct of members Hurricane Hazel happened. Ever since after that, my in whatever proceedings we are in. So I have to speak to dad—we would drive by the Humber River in Etobicoke, it, because I have to seek to correct the record. and he’d say, “Yep, the water came right up to here.” You I would also respectfully ask the Chair that should would look at this ravine and think, “Holy smoke.” another member make allegations against a member while Last year, when I was talking to Bill Walker, he assured in committee, they be ruled out of order and addressed. I me the government is just concerned about all these don’t believe that’s the conduct that is correct, and it’s programs and unnecessary things that conservation against the standing orders as they are stated. authorities do, but he had confidence that the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Minister of the Environment and Sadly, Darla, who was part of the previous panel, is not the Premier—that the basic science to protect Ontario was here, so she is not able to hear the information that is in place. When I say protect Ontario, there of course are correct. I would— wetlands—I mean, they’re protecting species at risk, The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): I apologize to cut forestry and all kinds of things. you off, MPP Hunter. As I mentioned earlier, this is a But the real outcome, if any of this happens, is it costs dispute over the facts. I would like to remind the all taxpayers money, because my farm gate—if I change it committee that a point of order should be used to draw the one year, it doesn’t impact my neighbour or me or Chair’s attention to any departure from the rules or whatever. Where that impact is, we can’t even calculate. I practices of the House or to raise concerns about drive down to Collingwood, which is 1,000 feet down the unparliamentary language. I would suggest that you please hill, and you see this water rushing and people dealing use your time to ask the question to our witnesses. You with it and culverts that aren’t big enough and the erosion. have already made your point, I think. But please, if you We’ve seen in the last couple of years, we’ve had some want to utilize your time to ask the question to the extraordinary water. I know in Caledon they’re just witnesses. replacing all the culverts; they’re not big enough. MPP Shaw? The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. Ms. Sandy Shaw: Chair, I would also like to—I’m Ms. Peggy Hutchison: Somebody at some point will looking for clarification, because it seems to me that a say, “Oh well, it doesn’t very often happen.” Well, it has member’s privilege and MPP Hunter’s privilege is to happened, like, three years in a row that we’ve had high exercise her duty as an MPP as she sees fit. If she chooses water tables, lots of snow, rain, cold—all at once—and to use her time to address an issue that personally was there is no place for that water to go. disrespectful to her, it was disrespectful to the witnesses— If it’s developers who—I’m talking about the lower The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw, I Duffins Creek, the ministerial zoning order, recently, that think MPP Hunter has already made her point. As I clearly 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3147 said, it is a dispute over the facts. So she has already made that, but right now they can get very substantial tax breaks her point. and subsidies without any conditions on them. I think MPP Hunter, do you want to continue? It’s your time. making sure that there’s no tobacco use in any film that’s You have a minute left. funded in Ontario would be a terrific way for the Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Okay. Well, I want to state the fact government to act on this. that in the Ontario budget 2018, on page 27, on the chapter Another thing that the government can do is to—and I for better care for seniors, there is a paragraph which know this is difficult because the legislation is about to speaks directly to personal support workers. It actually move forward. But to entirely remove the rating system, names them as a profession and enhances the amount that which this bill does, the new Film Content Information was stated. It enhances important services, such as Act, is really problematic because parents have no way caregiver respite. In 2017, Ontario invested an additional now of knowing how a film is rated, not just for tobacco $140 million in home care. An estimated 15,000 more use, but for graphic violence, drug use and other risky people received that care. Also, the previous government behaviours. They don’t have any way of knowing which enhanced the wages of home care workers to raise the films their kids, teenagers, whatever the age, should be standard of work and of care. going to or should not be going to. To wipe out this rating I do want to put that on record, because the member system the way this legislation does—and, of course, the from Willowdale erred in his accusations and in his Film Classification Act is being rescinded in about six personally naming me. I think that was wrong. months apparently, so there will be no way where parents The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): We’re almost out and younger folks can be sure of getting objective infor- of time. You have five seconds. We’ll come back to you mation. in the second round, MPP Hunter. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. We’ll go to the government now. MPP Babikian. Mr. Michael Perley: If exhibitors attach information Mr. Aris Babikian: Thank you very much to all our to film advertisements or whatever, they’ll get some presenters. I will start with Mr. Perley and his comments: information. If they don’t, the parents and kids won’t. smoke-free in the movies. I know it’s very difficult to reverse course. When I was I am quite interested with this question, because working on the vaping issue—and I think you and I have previously, I have been a member of the film classification talked about this—we were very pleased that the govern- board for four years. I know how important a role the ment reversed course on allowing promotion of vaping board has done in working on the classification and how products in convenience stores. Minister Elliott changed important it was to our civil society. The board members her mind and reversed course, and that’s been very helpful were proud with their work, and they have worked in a in terms of reducing exposure of kids to vaping products dedicated manner to address some of the issues that Mr. at retail. So it’s not unheard of to reverse course, and this Perley raised in movies and classification about coarse is an instance where I think it really should happen. language, violence, nudity etc. Also, finally, just quickly, I think the government could 1720 be in touch with the various streaming services, because Of course, protecting the health of our youth remains a I’m sure some folks listening to me are saying, “Well, wait priority for this government. A 2013 survey by Canadian a minute. Most kids see their films online now through tobacco, alcohol and drugs revealed that the smoking rate streaming services.” It’s true that there is a great deal of among Canadians older than 14 is at an all-time low at that, but there is still plenty of viewing in cinemas, so it’s 15%, but research suggests that a significant percentage of worth having a rating system. The only streaming service younger smokers pick up the habit after seeing tobacco use that now has any kind of content advisory is Netflix. All in movies. Other than your suggestion to remove the the others don’t. And I think the government could urge tobacco imagery in youth films, what else can the govern- the streaming services that are available in Ontario to add ment consider to bring down the rate of youth smoking? content advisories, just as Netflix has done. So those are some suggestions that I hope are helpful. Mr. Michael Perley: Thank you, Judge Babikian. I appreciate your comments, and I appreciate your interest Mr. Aris Babikian: Thank you very much. Coming in the issue and your past experience. back to your first suggestion about the tax incentive, what There are a number of things. I think one thing is on the about the movies produced outside of Canada? We don’t matter of the financing of the film industry. I think we’re have any leverage on them through the tax incentive. What all aware that the film industry makes a lot of movies in can we do about those movies? There are lots of European, Ontario. I’m not sure that everyone is aware, though, that Middle Eastern, South Asian and South American movies the total in tax breaks and subsidies to the film industry in where smoking is a popular item. Ontario is a little bit over $625 million a year. I think one The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. thing that the government could do right away is to attach Mr. Michael Perley: It’s very complicated, there’s no a condition to any tax breaks or subsidies to the movie question about it. We have a big international market, as industry, that any film producer or movie studio making a you’ve described. I think, again, how do kids get access to film in Ontario must certify that there is no tobacco use in these films? They get access much less so on DVDs now; that film in order to get subsidies or tax breaks here. The it’s much more streaming services when the movies are film industry is important to Ontario, we all understand from out of Canada. Impressing on the streaming services

F-3148 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 that there is a strong need to put content advisories, as with insurance policies. Insurance policies, very simply, Netflix has done, is not enough really, but it’s a step are one-sided contracts. They propose a contract to you. If forward. Another possibility is if the films are going to be you like the terms, you accept the contract. So you don’t on streaming services in Ontario, the government— get to negotiate that contract. You look at it, you decide The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): I apologize to cut whether it’s advantageous to you, your family, your future, you off. The time has come up for the government. and then you sign up for it. When you sign up for it, you We’ll go to the opposition now. MPP Shaw. start making plans according to what that contract is. Ms. Sandy Shaw: I just want to explain, or apologize, 1730 to the deputants who are here. They may not understand To break that sanctity is an absolute slippery slope into what MPP Hunter was discussing, but it was something chaos as far as I’m concerned. Let people run businesses. that occurred earlier in one of the deputations. While MPP I’ve been on both sides of contracts. I’ve benefited from Hunter and I do not represent the same parties, I would say contracts. I’ve lost because of contracts. That’s tough. that what we do share and what we do represent is a respect That’s business, and please, government, don’t interfere in for integrity and a respect for truthful discourse. So I it. would just like to explain why— Ms. Sandy Shaw: I couldn’t agree with you more. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): MPP Shaw, I Individuals who sign up for an insurance policy, these are would request that you please utilize your time in asking our parents, our grandparents, they’re us. We signed a questions to the witnesses. We have already wasted contract and a deal is a deal. We understand that a deal is enough time on this, so I would request that you please a deal. utilize your time asking questions to the witnesses, to Mr. Gary Huggins: Totally. respect them as well. Ms. Sandy Shaw: Exactly. Institutional investors are Ms. Sandy Shaw: Respectfully, Chair, I would say that one thing and the government is another. Really, if you it is not a waste of time to talk about integrity and look at it, the small investors, individual investors, don’t truthfulness, but I will put my question. Thank you very have a chance. They don’t have a chance to get a fair much. shake, especially with this government. I would like to address my first question, if I could, to I just want to refer you to the fact that this government Mr. Huggins. Mr. Huggins, you’re not the first deputant is the only jurisdiction in the country that is still sticking who has come and brought this to our attention. It’s really with deferred sales charges. Every security regulator in the an important thing that you found in this bill, that’s been country has said deferred sales charges are bad deals for snuck into this bill—that’s the government’s MO. They individual investors and they’re banned in every other like to see if they can sneak things in and get away with it. province, but this government has stuck to it. So my But what you have really brought to us is an important question to you is, what does this say about investor schedule that essentially pulls the rug out from underneath protection for individual investors in this province, who small investors and average investors in the province of have spent their hard-earned dollars with the promise that Ontario. this won’t be pulled out from under them when they need What I would like to say is that this is not the first time it? that the government has shown themselves unwilling to Mr. Gary Huggins: It’s terrible. You can’t do this, and respect a contract. I’m the finance critic. As Ontario’s you certainly can’t do it hidden inside a major, huge official opposition NDP finance critic, I received the most omnibus bill. If you’re going to look at this thing— remarkable letter from the US Chamber of Commerce that The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Two minutes. was discussing this government’s disrespect for the rule of Mr. Gary Huggins: —this takes study to see the contract law in the province. Really, the sanctity of validity of the claim that it harms people. It does not harm existing contracts should be honoured by a government. people. We’re protecting corporations here. They see this; I’m going to quote what the US Chamber of Commerce they don’t like the contracts they wrote, and so they’re said: “Our strong concern is that terminating an existing trying to just sweep them up. I hate to see the government contract, and doing so without compensation ... risks co-operate. sending a negative signal to US and other international Ms. Sandy Shaw: This government came into power investors about the business and investment climate in saying they’re open for business, which is one thing, and Ontario.” that they are going to put money in the pockets of—I So what you have unearthed is a pattern of this forget what the expression is; I can’t believe I forget, but government to tear up duly signed contracts. My question money in the pockets of the little guy. But it’s the little guy to you is, what does this mean for investor confidence, for that’s being taken advantage of by this change that has retail, small investors? And an insurance contract is an been surreptitiously slipped into a budget bill. Would you investment. What does that say about their confidence and agree with that? their trust in this government? Mr. Gary Huggins: I’m not sure what the motivation Mr. Gary Huggins: Once you start having the govern- is. I don’t know how this thing ended up in there. I think ment modify contracts that have either been negotiated on it’s a sham. I think all members of government should be good terms and in good faith—it’s a slippery slope. I don’t wary of ticking off seniors. There are more of us all the like to see anything done along these lines, particularly time— 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3149 The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. In the US, the projection is that 37% of recruitment of Mr. Gary Huggins: —and we have most of the money, new smokers happens through seeing smoking in movies. apparently. I haven’t found mine, but apparently we have That’s 6.4 million kids. I think it was mentioned earlier a huge chunk of the money. So don’t piss us off, if I can that we’ve done reasonably well with adult smokers in use that language. terms of getting those rates down, and we have, and we’ve Ms. Sandy Shaw: Mr. Huggins, yes, you absolutely done even better with kids. Wouldn’t it be a disaster if, can use that. And I would say particularly don’t piss off because there are no or fewer controls and information old ladies, because we actually end up with all the money. about smoking in movies, we reverse that trend and start Mr. Gary Huggins: Totally. Exactly. You outlive us, seeing rates among young people go up because they’re so there you go. I’m looking out for you guys. seeing a lot of smoking in movies, because moviemakers The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): I remind many have no incentive through ratings or content advisories times, and I’ll remind once again, to just be careful when that could be in place in Ontario or elsewhere? They have you—it has to be parliamentary language. Please don’t use no incentive not to have smoking in movies. The tobacco unparliamentary language. industry has had a long history of promoting this, as I Ms. Sandy Shaw: Sorry, Mr. Huggins. We’re in mentioned in my presentation. trouble. We’re going to have to go to parliamentary jail, In terms of vaping, most vaping products that are in use but that’ll be okay I think. today, the vast majority, have nicotine in them, which is the active addictive ingredient. There’s no reason why the Mr. Gary Huggins: Okay, that’s good. What’s the same controls in movies, and elsewhere for that matter, food like? that are in place on tobacco shouldn’t be in place on vaping Ms. Sandy Shaw: Not good. products. That doesn’t prevent a smoker who actually The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you. All wants to use vaping products to quit from accessing a right, so we’ll move to the government side now for their product. It just keeps them away from kids and makes it a second round. MPP Cho. lot more difficult for kids to get ahold of them. Mr. Stan Cho: Thank you to all the presenters this Mr. Stan Cho: Thank you for that. You touched on a afternoon. I appreciate your time, certainly here at the end very important word. You said the influence that these of the day. movies have, and that word “influence,” if you ask the I’m going to start my questioning with Mr. Perley. I youth of today, means something entirely different. have to admit, this is a subject I don’t know too much There’s a whole noun that I had never heard of called about, so I have a lot of basic questions. I hope you’ll “influencer” on social media that really is driving the forgive if I’m a little simple in these questions. behaviours of our youth today. Technology has really changed every aspect of our The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. lives, and that includes the way our youth are smoking. Mr. Stan Cho: I’m wondering how do we rein this in, When I grew up, I remember there were still smoking because it would be a disaster, as you put it, if our youth sections on planes and in malls. Now we’ve started to see smoking rates were to tick up. I get the business case the “no vaping,” but vaping certainly for a while was you’ve made around movies themselves, but should we be progressing faster in terms of technology than maybe our looking broader? Should your organization and our gov- laws were able to keep up with. So I’m curious: How, then, ernment be looking broader to the impacts that social does your organization or do you feel about the vaping media and influencers are having, recognizing that, as I issue? Should these be equally enforced? Should we have said in my opening, the technology continues to evolve, some of the same cautionary measures around that vaping, not just with the technology of smoking but the way that and how do we enforce this? This will lead into my next our youth are accessing information? line of questioning. Maybe you can start with that. Mr. Michael Perley: I couldn’t agree with you more. Mr. Michael Perley: If we’re speaking just on the I’m delighted you brought that up, because there are in- movies issue for a moment, I think all controls and fluencers for virtually every behaviour and every product information requirements and ratings and so on should online these days in social media on Snapchat, Instagram, equally apply to vaping products as they would to tobacco Facebook, Twitter etc. It certainly would serve us all very products. We used to have a content advisory about well if some of the lead organizations that are concerned tobacco use required under the soon-to-be-repealed Film about this, perhaps in partnership with the provincial Classification Act. This content advisory would appear on government, would identify leading influencers who don’t websites. When somebody looked up a movie to get times smoke—there are many out there who don’t, of course— in a theatre, you’d see the content advisory. It’s not great. and engage and enlist them in a campaign to encourage We have always supported an 18A rating for movies their followers not to smoke. And if they see smoking in depicting tobacco use. The government, no matter who movies, don’t pay any attention to it. If you see smoking was in office, has not seen fit to put that in place, despite in movies, don’t be fooled that it’s cool or it’s harmless, or the huge—and I use that word advisedly—amount of you want to do it because such and such an actor or evidence showing how influential seeing smoking in whatever is smoking. There are lots of creative ways that movies is on kids in terms of them moving forward to go creative minds far greater than mine could come up with to smoking and eventually addiction. very good campaigns, exactly as you said, to be used and

F-3150 STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS 2 DECEMBER 2020 rolled out by influencers across the spectrum of social pick up with my tractor and move, but I was told, “No, media. That’s a great idea, and it should be pursued. there are certain areas you can’t put that.” And it’s not just 1740 one person. When this gets magnified across all the water- Mr. Stan Cho: Thank you for that, Mr. Perley. sheds, the result for the people downstream is almost Obviously, we won’t have enough time here to have the unfathomable. Last year, there was a woman driving to fulsome discussion, but I believe in a carrot-and-stick Barrie—and I went by the same road, the same day. It was approach for better outcomes— flooded. She opened the door to try to get her four-year- The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. old out of the car, who was washed away and drowned. I Mr. Stan Cho: —so what I’m hoping to hear, maybe, mean, this is not funny. are those broader discussions around the problem from a The levels in the Great Lakes: The conservation author- macro level, because we’re not going to keep up with the ities play a big component in that because a lot of our advances in technology. major rivers go there, but there are other people involved. You forgot TikTok, by the way. I think the kids today Universally, people look at Ontario, who created the would laugh at Facebook and Twitter, from what I know conservation authority watershed management across from my niece. municipal boundaries. They are based on science and As we move forward, we won’t be able to keep pace. water—nobody can control water. The world looks at Certainly government won’t be able to keep pace with how them. Consider what’s happening in Venice. That’s be- technology moves and how influence moves in the data- cause they get wiped out regularly, and it’s getting worse. driven society we have today. My offer to you is to have Climate change: I don’t know if people—whether it’s these fulsome discussions, and I’m looking forward to climate change or whatever. I’ve lived on this farm for 45 your ideas. I think, together, we can make sure that youth years, and I said, “Well, some years it’s fine, and three or smoking rates continue to decline in Ontario. four years go by and nothing.” Then all of a sudden, you’ll The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so get the worst something in 100 years. much. The cost of remediation: We shouldn’t be blowing We’ll move to the opposition now for the second round. money on that. We should be using our money to fight this MPP Shaw. pandemic and doing all kinds of other things besides Ms. Sandy Shaw: I’d like to address my final question blowing it on remediating decisions that have been made, to Peggy Hutchison. Thank you so much for being here ignoring the scientific input of the conservation authorities and for your deputation. I would just like to let you know and anyone else who has knowledge about what we should that my parents are in Wasaga and so On The Bay or should not be doing. Magazine is like gospel in their home. There are some lakes, apparently, that are being sidled You’ve really done a great job of representing why into Lake Superior. That water should be going some- schedule 6, which is being slipped into a budget bill, has where else. Conservationist authorities can only do what been so upsetting to average folks all across Ontario—and they can. But within our municipalities across southern not just average folks. We have the big city mayors; we Ontario— have AMO. The city of Hamilton, where I’m from, passed The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Three minutes. a resolution to rescind schedule 6. Ms. Peggy Hutchison: —somebody might say, “Oh, The thing you said that I think is most important for well, I can build over there.” You can’t, and you just need people to understand is that it’s all connected. We’re all somebody who has no political stake in it to just say, “No.” connected in this. For this government to cut off conserv- I know that the Nottawasaga Valley, years ago, said the ation authorities at the knees and the work that they do authority could help developers by being the point person: impacts not just you at the headwaters, my parents in “Okay, what permits do you need? Who do you need to Wasaga—you’re downstream from there—it impacts all talk to?” and whatever. And how can you work out— of Ontario. maybe a building gets redesigned or moved a little bit. Can you explain a little bit how, for example, when There may be some way to make it happen. there are high waters in Georgian Bay, as happened But when you look at that Duffins Creek ministerial before—what is some of the work that conservation zoning order, I don’t know what planet that decision came authorities have done to address high water and the impact from. It’s just unfathomable. I’m surprised that Quebec that it has not only on businesses, but on farms like yours doesn’t say, “Wait a minute, we’re downstream.” all the way down the watershed? I gather that the committee has heard from David Ms. Peggy Hutchison: There are 36 conservation Crombie. David Crombie headed the Headwaters Confer- authorities in southern Ontario, maybe 34, and two are on ence in the early 1990s. It was held in Orangeville—or the Canadian Shield. There are other rivers that go into the actually at the Hockley Valley Conference Centre. The Great Lakes, so there are other agencies that should be Humber River, the Credit, the Nottawasaga and I think the involved in ensuring that not too much water is going in. Grand all rise there. Of course, with the Grand and the Now, conservation authorities ensure that—wetlands Humber, there is so much development and so many are a natural sponge. You cannot even contemplate how houses and people. There are other watersheds where there they operate. So making sure that there’s no development is nobody really living downstream or they’re living in a in wetlands and making sure that any time a development houseboat, but anywhere where there’s major develop- is proposed—and I say, even I have a shed that I could ment downstream—I have friends who live in Steeles and 2 DÉCEMBRE 2020 COMITÉ PERMANENT DES FINANCES ET DES AFFAIRES ÉCONOMIQUES F-3151 Sheppard in Toronto; I forget what that’s called. It used to Mr. Huggins, I wanted to ask you about schedule 22, be called— because even though this is a budget bill, Bill 229, we’ve Ms. Sandy Shaw: North York. It’s called North York. spent most of our time really talking about the environ- It’s Willowdale, actually. ment and how schedules 6 and 8 are going to ruin species Ms. Peggy Hutchison: —and their basement has been at risk and, really, the future. Peggy just outlined the flooded. That shouldn’t have happened. caution around wetlands and what they do in terms of I beg your pardon. absorbing stormwater runoff and keeping our ecology Ms. Sandy Shaw: That’s actually Willowdale. The going. Very little has been talked about in terms of the MPP from Willowdale is here. budget itself and how it impacts people. Ms. Peggy Hutchison: Willowdale, okay. Their house You are bringing forward a risk area that’s been snuck was flooded a couple of years ago. into this bill, that affects insurance policyholders and their I know I’ve driven on Jane Street one day, and there the investments that they signed on in good faith with a road goes under the bridges, through four feet of water. contract, and now that contract is being legislated away You’re just wondering, “Who authorized this?” So, it isn’t and impacted. I want you to just maybe tell us how you just developers; it’s also municipalities. believe Ontarians will be disadvantaged, those who hold The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. these policies and, in particular, seniors, who—many of Ms. Peggy Hutchison: We’re living with a lot of bad them signed these contracts decades ago. decisions that were made before 1945. When they Mr. Gary Huggins: I’m sorry. I can’t understand why invented the authority system in 1946—it’s going to be the they would be disadvantaged. I just don’t see the logic 75th anniversary year next year—that was a brainwave. It there. I think it’s very convenient to ride on the coattails of seniors: “Oh, by the way, we’re going to protect them has served well. with our greatest skills,” and all of that. That’s one way of I have a friend in Toronto whose neighbour’s house selling it. But I’m at a loss to understand why they think shouldn’t have been built where it is. It is falling into the this is going to affect the seniors. I mean, these people ravine. Again, who’s going to pay for that? Their signed up for these contracts— insurance won’t cover it. If it’s enough of a natural The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): One minute. disaster, like all the housing—the whole of Scarborough Mr. Gary Huggins: I’ve had insurance, all kinds of Bluffs is eroding, because people aren’t paying attention. insurance. I did not sign up for this particular kind. It Ultimately, provincial taxpayers and federal—I mean, didn’t fit what I was doing, but I understood what they when it’s enough of a disaster everybody pays for it. The were doing. They were selling it on the basis of it’s an bottom line is, don’t do it. Just don’t go there. investment that would pay for your insurance. There are all kinds of alternatives. It’s not like there is Nevertheless, along the way, they came along and they no place else to build. And it’s not as though you’re said, “You know what? We need to sell more insurance, saying, “Oh, well, I think we should only have one-storey so instead of guaranteeing 1% interest, we’re going to housing— guarantee 3%, maybe 4%, maybe 5% interest.” And The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so understand, a lot of these particular policies with side much. I apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. interests originated back in the 1980s, when interest rates We’ll go to the independents now. MPP Hunter. were just astronomical. They went to 22%. So for them to Ms. Mitzie Hunter: I want to thank all of the promise that back then was a bit of a joke, a marketing presenters. You’ve just been terrific in making your ploy. individual cases. Now, in this environment where interest rates on bonds I just want to touch on—I want to have a comment and are paying 1% or less, and we’re looking at negative then I have a specific question for Mr. Huggins. But interest rates in the Fed, for 3%, 4%, 5%— definitely, Ms. Hutchison, schedule 6 is problematic. The Chair (Mr. Amarjot Sandhu): Thank you so Everyone has said that, from all sides. Hopefully the much. I apologize to cut you off. The time has come up. government will listen and remove it. My riding is That concludes our time. I want to thank all the Scarborough–Guildwood. The bluffs are on the southern presenters for presenting today and the committee staff for boundary, right at the lake. Of course, the erosion is their assistance. As a reminder, the deadline for written happening directly to personal property. submissions is 7 p.m. today, Wednesday, December 2, In terms of, Mr. Perley, the work that you’re doing, I 2020. The deadline to file amendments to the bill with the just want to encourage you to keep that advocacy up for Clerk of the Committee is 12 noon on Thursday, Decem- the protection of future generations. The former govern- ber 3. ment implemented Smoke-Free Ontario, which saw a The committee is now adjourned until 9 a.m. on Friday, drastic decline in tobacco use in Ontario, and more needs December 4, when we will meet for clause-by-clause to be done. This is an excellent idea to protect young consideration of Bill 229. Thank you. people as they are consuming film and television. The committee adjourned at 1754.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

Chair / Président Mr. Amarjot Sandhu (Brampton West / Brampton-Ouest PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président Mr. Jeremy Roberts (Ottawa West–Nepean / Ottawa-Ouest–Nepean PC)

Mr. Ian Arthur (Kingston and the Islands / Kingston et les Îles ND) Mr. Stan Cho (Willowdale PC) Ms. Mitzie Hunter (Scarborough–Guildwood L) Mr. Logan Kanapathi (Markham–Thornhill PC) Mr. Sol Mamakwa (Kiiwetinoong ND) Mr. David Piccini (Northumberland–Peterborough South / Northumberland–Peterborough-Sud PC) Mr. Jeremy Roberts (Ottawa West–Nepean / Ottawa-Ouest–Nepean PC) Mr. Amarjot Sandhu (Brampton West / Brampton-Ouest PC) Ms. Sandy Shaw (Hamilton West–Ancaster–Dundas / Hamilton-Ouest–Ancaster–Dundas ND) Mr. Dave Smith (Peterborough–Kawartha PC) Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam (Scarborough–Rouge Park PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants Mr. Aris Babikian (Scarborough–Agincourt PC) Ms. Natalia Kusendova (Mississauga Centre / Mississauga-Centre PC) Mr. Billy Pang (Markham–Unionville PC) Ms. Lindsey Park (Durham PC)

Clerk / Greffière Ms. Julia Douglas

Staff / Personnel Mr. Alex Alton, research officer, Research Services Mr. Dmitry Granovsky, research officer, Research Services Ms. Sandra Lopes, research officer, Research Services