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Monday, June 3, 1996 CANADA VOLUME 134 S NUMBER 055 S 2nd SESSION S 35th PARLIAMENT OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD) Monday, June 3, 1996 Speaker: The Honourable Gilbert Parent CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.) The House of Commons Debates are also available on the Parliamentary Internet Parlementaire at the following address: http://www.parl.gc.ca 3285 HOUSE OF COMMONS Monday, June 3, 1996 The House met at 11 a.m. Although they were not elected, these people sit in a House with the same responsibilities as the House of Commons. Let us not _______________ forget that after a bill passes third reading here in this House, it is sent to the Senate, which goes through the same stages. This is a Prayers form of duplication. We saw in the Pearson airport case—and the Liberals were the first ones to be affected as a government; I think _______________ this will make them think about how relevant this motion is—how the bill was stalled in the Senate for several months. The reality we are facing is that elected parliamentarians who have passed a bill PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS are now paralysed in their work by an unelected House. This, I think, is unacceptable in this day and age, on the eve of the 21st [Translation] century. THE SENATE The Senate’s existence was understandable when the Canadian Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, BQ) Confederation was created, because we wanted an equivalent to the moved: British House of Lords. It was said at the time that the people sitting in the Commons might not have had all the intellectual That, in the opinion of this House, the government should abolish the Senate. capacities necessary. That kind of thinking was prevalent at the He said: Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to open time, and all the problems had to be given due consideration. It was House proceedings this morning on the motion in which I call on therefore decided to institute a kind of patriarchal entity, a House the government to abolish the Senate. capable of seeing to it that things are done properly. But times have changed. First of all, I would like to thank all members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for allowing this Today, members of Parliament have all the capabilities required motion to be put to a vote, because I think it is important for the to do their jobs; they have different opinions they are entitled to House to have an opportunity to deal with this significant matter. voice. They have researchers working for them and people lobby- ing them. Really, the Senate is no longer useful. Why do I want the Senate to be abolished? The reason I moved this motion is that I realized that, throughout Quebec in particular, The other theoretical function of the Senate was that of repre- the Senate symbolizes in a way the ineffectiveness and inefficiency senting the various regions of Canada. I have a teaser for you and of Parliament. A case in point, which is a caricature because it does all members of this place for that matter. Who can identify the not concern all the senators, is when we saw some of them doze off senator responsible for his or her riding? Who can give me the on television during the throne speech. designation of the Senate division or district represented by their That incident made me think about the following question: Why senator? do we still need today a second House like the Senate, an unelected House? The senators were never elected by the people to carry out I have asked the people of my riding time and time again and no this function; they were appointed on the Prime Minister’s recom- one could tell me the name of the senator representing us or the mendation. Senators are often appointed as a political reward, designation of the division. We are part of the Grandville division because they helped run a political party so it could win an election, and we are represented by Senator John Lynch-Staunton; he is or because they will work on an election campaign in the future. certainly a very fine man. This goes to show that the Senate has not fulfilled this regional representation mandate because nowhere in I can give you two examples: Céline Hervieux-Payette was Canada is a region associated with a senator in particular. And the defeated as a Liberal candidate before being appointed to the reason for this is surely the fact that senators are not elected. There Senate; she is now co-chair of the Liberal Party of Canada’s is also the appointment process. Often, senators to be were selected organization for the next election campaign. There is also Mr. or appointed even before knowing what division they would be Nolin, who plays more or less the same role for the Conservative representing. There was also a requirement for holding property. Party of Canada. We have seen cases where, on the eve of their appointment, 3286 COMMONS DEBATES June 3, 1996 Private Members’ Business individuals rushed out to by a property to meet this statutory become a very important part of the process. Committee members requirement. But the Senate no longer meets the objective in consider bills clause by clause; they have expertise. this regard. The Library of Parliament provides non partisan support and Another aspect seems very important to me today. Our constitu- research services. It is very easy to get information on issues of ents are asking us to cut the fat in government spending. They are interest. Nowadays, members of Parliament are very well equipped asking us to look for areas where there are unnecessary expendi- to give thorough consideration to legislation. tures being made. The government took a stringent measure in reforming the unemployment insurance program. Just to save a couple hundred or thousand dollars here and there, legislation was There is no longer a need to rely on outsiders whose mandate is passed that gets down to the nitty-gritty, checking up on recipients unclear. We do not really know whether senators represent the to ensure they do everything by the book, all under this very interests of lobbyists or those of the public. That is not always complex act basically designed to hunt down abusers. But at the clear. There are some rather ambiguous connections, and, since very same time, we have here a House, the Senate, with an annual they are not elected, senators have a great deal of room to budget of $43 million; that is a consideraable amount for an manoeuver. They do not have to take any account at all of what unelected Chamber. they have been told by their fellow citizens in the positions they adopt. And that is not counting expenses attributable to the senators’ activities and associated costs. This amount covers wages, staff As members of this House, we are only too aware of this. When compensation and travelling expenses in general. Should we not there is a controversial bill, a situation that is more difficult to eliminate the Senate, instead of targeting unemployment insurance analyse, we are approached by lobbyists, but also by our constitu- beneficiaries? This would generate savings of $43 million. This is ents. Imagine how differently you would do things if all you had to an expenditure that recurs year after year. The amount of $43 take into account in reaching a decision were lobbies. In the end, million is the actual budget. However, when senators delay the what we have is a sort of outmoded 19th century democracy, one passing of a bill for six months or a year, this also generates major that does not correspond to our needs today in the information era. costs and it has a very harmful effect on the actions taken by the What we need above all is people well attuned to their communi- government and by Parliament. ties, something the senators certainly are not. We should modernize things somewhat. Eliminating the Senate Earlier, I mentioned the $43 million budget. This is a lot of would be one way of doing it. In this respect, the federal govern- money. Freeing up this amount would still not solve the problem of ment is lagging behind. For example, it was almost 30 years ago the Canadian deficit, but it would be an important symbolic that Quebec’s National Assembly, then called the Legislative gesture. When we ask the public to do their part and accept cuts, we Assembly, eliminated its legislative council, which was more or are asked all the time: ‘‘Are you guys in Parliament doing your less the provincial equivalent of the Senate. part? Are you doing what is necessary so that the best possible decisions are taken at the least cost?’’ D (1110) The Senate is a flagrant example of the sort of area where we could make an important symbolic gesture in the vote following I can assure you that things are not going any worse. People do this debate. This would not exclude a debate at a later date on the not call to say that they miss legislative councillors. I do not think advisability of having a second House in Canada. What form would there would be any more problems if we did the same with this House take? Should it be a House whose seats are distributed senators. by region, or should there be no regional representation at all? This debate can take place later on.
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