Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 26 MARCH 1968

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Special Adjournment [26 MARcH] Questions 2529

TUESDAY, 26 MARCH, 1%8

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m. QUESTIONS

EFFECT OF UNITED STATES REJECTION OF AUSTRALIAN MEAT CARGO Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Primary Industries,- (!) Was Queensland's beef export trade involved in the recent United States' refusal to permit entry of a two million dollar Australian meat export cargo from the vessel City of Brisbane? If so, to what extent? ( 2) Is it anticipated that the reasons advanced for rejection of this cargo will have any future effect on Queensland's beef trade?

Answers:­ (1) "No." (2) "The rejection will have no effect on future shipments of beef from Queens­ land as the quarantine requirements remain unaltered and can be satisfied."

UNLAWFUL UsE AND STEALING OF MOTOR VEHICLES Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- ( 1) How many motor vehicles during the calendar years 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, were-(a) unlawfully used, (b) reported stolen, (c) recovered by the police and (d) found abandoned and stripped? (2) What is the maximum penalty that may be imposed for (a) the unlawful use of and (b) the stealing of a motor vehicle? (3) What action is proposed in order to reduce this type of crime?

Answers:- (1) '~(a) and (b) 1964-1,711; 1965- 1,792; 1966-1,703; and 1%7-1,544. Vehicles unlawfully used and vehicles reported stolen are not classified separately in the records of the Police Department. (c) 1964-1,576; 1965-1,637; 1966- 1,542; and 1967-1,450. (d) This infor­ mation is not readily available and the incurring of expenditure to extract this information could not be justified." (2) "(a) (i) Imprisonment with hard labour for five years-<>ection 408A of The Criminal Code; (ii) Five hundred dollars or imprisonment with hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both such fine and imprisonment­ section 29 of "The Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences Acts, 1934 to 1967"; (iii) Two hundred dollars or impri.sonment 2530 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

for six months or to both such penalty ESTABLISHMENT OF SCHOOL FOR DEAF and imprisonment-section 60 of "The CHILDREN, TOWNSVILLB Traffic Acts, 1949 to 1967"; (b) If no other penalty is provided, imprisonment Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The with hard labour for three years, and if Minister for Education,- the motor vehicle is of the value of $2,000 As it would appear that the numbers or upwards, imprisonment with hard warrant it, will he establish a school for labour for seven years-section 398 of deaf children in Townsville to serve all The Criminal Code." North Queensland, thus keeping all (3) "It would not be in the public students much closer to their homes and interest to disclose the action proposed to families? be taken by the Police Department in this direction. However, present procedures will be increased and improved in order Answer:- that all possible measures are taken to "Present information is that there are reduce this type of offence." sixty children with a significant degree of hearing loss in the northern and north­ western educational regions, including Palm ASSISTANT LIBRARIAN, PARLIAMENT Island and Torres Strait areas. Of these, HousE thirty-four are attending the 5chool for Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked the deaf as residential pupils and eight The Premier,- children of pre-school age are being With regard to the advertisement appear­ advised by the pre-school section. The ing in the Government Gazette of March remaining eighteen are attending ordinary 9, calling for Assistant Librarian, Parlia­ schools or other educational institutions. ment House- The forty-two northern children enrollee ( I) Why did the advertisement stipulate at the school for the deaf and the pre­ "male only"? school section range in age from nine months to fifteen years and in degree of (2) Is this not a form of discrimination handicap from hard of hearing to pro­ between the sexes? foundly deaf. Thirteen live in Townsville, ( 3) As the advertisement stated that with the remainder scattered within a applications must be forwarded to the radius of 500 miles from this centre. The Secretary, State Public Service Commis­ establishment of a school in TownsvH!e sioner, and that the appointee would be would therefore enable only a iew of the excluded from the conditions of the State northern deaf children to receive special Public Service, why was this position schooling while living at home. The wide called for by that Department? disparity in the ages and abilities of children in this group would make it ( 4) Are all the staff of the Parlia­ mentary Library subject to the conditions extremely difficult to form homogeneous of the Public Service? teaching groups within a separate school and to provide an educational programme (5) If not, why was this particular at a standard equivalent to the education vacancy advertised in this way? they are receiving at the school for the deaf." Answers:- ( 1) "The position and classification of the Assistant Librarian is contained in the CoMPOSITE SCHOOL, MAGNETIC ISLAND Parliamentary Officers' and State Reporting Bureau Award. The position is one which Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The has been occupied by a male for many Minister for Education,- years." What is the present position regarding (2) "No." the proposal of some years' standing to bring the three small schools on Magnetic (3) "Since 1946, eleven positions in Island into one composite school? the Parliamentary Library have been advertised by the Public Service Commis­ sioner's Department. This practice was Answer:- followed in connection with the advertising "The proposal to consolidate schooling of the position of Assistant Librarian." facilities on Magnetic Island involves the ( 4) "Section 4 of "The Public Service construction of a new school building and Acts, 1922 to 1965," provides, inter alia, the organisation of a school transport that any officer of Parliament or any system. The building programme of the person under the control of the Speaker Department is limited by the funds avail­ shall not be included in the Public Service." able, and it has not yet been possible to undertake this project because of the more (5) "See Answer to (3)." pressing needs of other centres." Questions [26 MARCH] Questions 2531

FLOOD MITIGATION SCHEMES FOR Ross Answers:- RIVER, TOWNSVILLE (1) "(a) Authority to Prospect for .Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The minerals, including gold but excluding coal Minister for Local Government,- and petroleum, No. 462 M., was granted As some suburbs in Townsville were to C.R.A. Exploration Pty. Limited com­ flooded when the Ross River broke its mencing on December 1, 1967. (b) banks during heavy rain earlier this year Approximately 980 square miles. (c) The with resultant damage to property and Proclamation reserving this area for this inconvenience to the public, what are the authority appeared in the Government details of any flood mitigation schemes Gazette 1967.3.1256 of December 2, undertaken or to be undertaken on the 1967. (d) The usual conditions pertaining river? to such Authorities to Prospect. These are extensive but a copy may be perused at Answer:- the Department of Mines. (e) The period of this authority is for two years expiring "At the request and expense of the on November 30, 1969." Townsville City Council and with its assistance, the Irrigation and Water Supply (2) "Full reports on the work done under Commission is preparing detailed designs the terms of the authority must be made to for a dam on the Ross River just below its the Deoartment. On the surrender or junction with Five Head Creek. This expiry of the authority the full reports on structure is proposed for the dual purpose all the area of the authority that is not of augmenting water supply to the City then heid under title are available on of Townsville and providing flood miti­ 'open file' at the Department of Mines." gation along the Ross River. Storage for city water supply is proposed in two stages. (3) "The Geological Survey of Queens­ First stage would be 48,000 acre feet land has undertaken routine regional map­ capacity and provide an assured supply of ping in this area but has not made detailed lOt million gallons per day. A possible mineral surveys." second stage under examination is being aimed at 20 million gallons per day, for ( 4) "The examination of the area with which a storage of 245,000 acre feet would a view to possibly locating economic probably be necessary. Flood mitigation mineral deposits." would be provided by temporary pending of a volume of up to 270,000 acre feet of flood runoff above the spillway crest. UsE OF CHLOROMYCETIN Such an arrangement would reduce out­ Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked flow from a flood similar to 1946 to a flow The Minister for Health,- which would be contained in the river channel below Black School Weir. The ( 1) What information does his Depart­ recent flood in the Ross River had a peak ment have concerning the antibiotic flow about one-fifth of that in 1946. chloromycetin? Completion of the design and working (2) What side-effects may ~esult from drawings is being aimed at enabling com­ the use of the antibiotic? mencement of construction in 1970-71, if desired by the City Council." ( 3) Are details of possible harmful side­ effects circulated by his Department? ( 4) What examination, if any, of new AUTHORITY TO PROSPECT IN NANANGO­ antibiotics is undertaken by the Depart­ HAMPTON-ESK RoAD AREA ment? .Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- Answers:- With reference to an authority to pros­ ( 1) "The antibiotic chloramphenicol pect taken by C.R.A. Exploration Co. of (trade name "Chloromycetin") has been Melbourne for a large area stretching from available for about eighteen years. It has Nanango to the Hampton-Esk road- been extensively used by hospitals and by (1) (a) When was the authority taken private doctors, particularly for acute out, (b) what area does it cover, (c) what intestinal infections." public notice or announcement was given of it, (d) what conditions apply to it and (2) "The principal side-effect is the (e) when does it expire? possibility of aplastic anaemia following its use. In 1964 the National Health and (2) Will the results be made known to Medical Research Council considered that his Department and, if so, will they be 'the incidence of aplastic anaemia, though made public? small, represents a grave hazard and the ( 3) What surveys has his Department Council considered that the use of made in the same area and what are the chloramphenicol in private medical prac­ results? tice should be restricted to cases of life-threatening infection or other ( 4) What are the objects of the present serious infections sensitive only to survey by C.R.A. Exploration? chloramphenicol'." 2532 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

(3) "The above information was con­ Answers:- veyed to the Queensland branch of the ( 1 to 3) "The comment, which I made, Australian Medical Association on was not related to any particular Barrier November 27, 1964, and the notice was Reef Island Resort, whereas the comments published in the Australian Medical Asso­ by Mr. Jager were. The advice which I ciation Newsbulletin for December, 1964." have from the Queensland Government ( 4) "New antibiotics are not examined Tourist Bureau, and on which my statement by my Department. This is carried out by was based, was that some requests for the National Biological Standards accommodation were already having to be Laboratory in Canberra." refused in respect of the month of May. Furthermore, there is every indication the same pattern will emerge as last year, when many resorts were fully booked out SUBSIDIES FOR SCHOOL LIBRARIES for considerable periods during the months Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, aske'­ in question." The Minister for Education,- ( 4) "No. It is because of the solid ( 1) What amount has been spent in continuing demand for Barrier Reef holi­ grants in aid of school libraries during days that the Queensland Government the period June 30, 1967 to the present Tourist Bureau has recommended the pro­ date? vision of further leases of islands on the (2) Under what circumstances is a Reef." school eligible for a grant? (3) How many schools have received grants during the period mentioned and OVERLOADING OF MOTOR VEHICLES IN how many were high schools? BRISBANE Mr. Sherrington, pursuant to notice, asked ( 4) Will he provide a grant to the new The Minister for Labour and Tourism,- high school at Centenary Heights, Toowoomba? With regard to the carrying capacity overloading of vehicles in the metropolitan area- Answers:- ( 1) Are any checks made of the over­ ( 1 and 2) "Assistance is given by the loading of vehicles and, if so, have any Department in the form of subsidy, $ for prosecutions been launched? If so, how $, which is available to all State schools many have been launched against (a) on the purchase of books for school owners and (b) drivers? libraries. During the period June 30, 1967, to March 21, 1968, subsidy amounting to (2) How many machinery inspections $64,238.52 has been approved." have been made at the Coomera and Gailes weighbridges? (3) "In that period subsidy has been approved for 722 State primary schools and 98 State high schools." Answers:- ( 1) "This matter does not come within ( 4) "Centenary Heights State High the purview of my Department." School is entitled to receive subsidy on the normal basis." (2) "Since January, 1967, 142 com­ pulsory vehicle inspections have been car­ ried out, and 41 snap inspections at the G:liles Station. The latter resulted in six TOURIST ACCOMMODATION AT BARRIER vehicles being put off the road. No inspec­ REEF ISLAND RESORTS tions have been made at Coomera, as yet. Mr. Graham, pursuant to notice, asked However, with the additional motor vehicle The Minister for Labour and Tourism,- inspectors now being appointed, it is pro­ ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to the posed to use this centre also as one for Press statement made by Mr. F. Jager, compulsory and snap inspections." Sales Manager, Barrier Reef Is. Coy., which appeared in The Courier-Mail of March 21, in which Mr. Jager challenged RAILWAY AWARD INTERPRETATIONS the statement attributable to the Minister appearing in the Press Teport of March 2"0, Mr. Sherrington, pursuant to notice, asked viz. "all reef resorts are overbooked with The Minister for Transport,- visitors for the entire season . . . But it is ( 1) What has been the number of not good. It is bad to turn people away"? interpretations handed down during the years 1966 and 1967? (2) What is the source of his informa­ tion? (2) Of these, how many favoured (a) the Railway Department and (b) the ( 3) Did he check the authenticity of the unions? information before making his statement? (3) How many decisions in favour of ( 4) Is not the making of such a state­ each party have been submitted to the ment damaging to the tourist industry? Industrial Commission for ruling? Questions [26 MARCH] Questions 2533

( 4) What has been the number of property has certain disadvantages by com­ interpretations concerning the trainmen's parison with the declared area basis. It is section of the award as against other very difficult to obtain uniform decisions sections? by stock inspectors in charge of different and widely scattered areas. In addition, Answers:- conditions on individual properties can (1)- reflect the standard of husbandry on the "Year No. of Interpretations properties concerned as well as seasonal 1966 231 conditions in the district. Because of the 1967 126" problems involved in this matter, a com­ (2) "(a) and (b)­ mittee comprising officers of Primary Year No. of Interpretations Industries, Railways, Transport and in favour of Treasury Departments, is examining the Railway Unions whole question. The Committee's report Department has not yet been received. At present the 1966 136 95 basis for allowing rebates on fodder for 1967 88 38" starving stock is different from that apply­ (3)- ing to transport of starving stock, but the "Year No. of Interpretations committee referred to is giving considera­ submitted to Industrial tion to the adoption of a uniform basis Commission in favour of applicable to both fodder and stock." Railway Unions Department 1966 41 Nil QUARANTINED PROPERTIES IN MULTI­ 1967 37 Nil" RESISTANT TICK AREAS (4)- Mr. Hodges for Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt, pur­ "Year No. of Interpretations suant to notice, asked The Minister for concerning Primary Industries,- Trainmen's Other ( 1) How many properties throughout Section Sections Queensland are at present quarantined due 1966 154 77 to the multi-resistant cattle tick? 1967 66 60" (2) What dipping conditions has the Department applied to quarantined properties? EMPLOYEES, RAILWAY DEPARTMENT ( 3) Are neighbouring properties allowed Mr. Sherrington, pursuant to notice, asked to carry out their own programme or have The Minister for Transport,- they to come under the supervision of What was the number of permanent the Department of Primary Industries? employees in the Railway Department for ( 4) What procedure is the Department the year 1957 and what is the number at of Primary Industries adopting for the the present time? marketing of stock from an area which has the multi-resistant tick on (a) quarantined Answer:- property, (b) neighbouring properties and Number of (c) other farmers and graziers within the Permanent district? "As at Employees June 30, 1957 24,666 February 11, 1%8 20,050" Answers:- ( 1) "One hundred and twenty-three properties are quarantined because of the RAIL FREIGHT REBATES FOR DROUGHT­ presence of multi-resistant ticks. Three AFFECTED PROPERTIES hundred properties are quarantined as adjoining properties." Mr. Hodges for Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt, pur­ suant to notice, asked The Treasurer,- (2) "The dipping programme required ( 1) Has any definite decision been for multi-resistant properties involves reached by his Department relative to supervised treatments at 10-day intervals allowing starving-stock rebate to a lessee while adult ticks continue in evidence then whose property is drought-stricken, yet the supervised treatments at 17 -day intervals whole area is not declared? while cattle continue free from adult ticks, for a period of 8 months." ( 2) Is it not possible for a lessee to obtain fodder at starving-stock rebate rates (3) "Neighbouring or adjoining property on the certification of a stock inspector, owners are allowed to carry out their and, if so, does it not also apply in the own programmes but may elect to adopt a case of cattle moving to agistment? prescribed programme comprising super­ vised treatments at 17-day intervals for a Answer:- period of six months if June and July are (! and 2) "Allowing freight rebates on included or five months if June or July starving stock and fodder entirely on the is included or four months if June and basis of conditions on an individual July are not included-thereafter five 2534 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

further treatments at not more than 21- project? If not, when does the Commission day intervals. Medicaments are supplied intend to build on the remaining land by the Department of Primary Industries available in the estate? to owners adopting the prescribed treat­ ments." Answer:- ( 4) "Stock may be marketed from areas "No. Two sites in Canterbury Street in which multi-resistant ticks have been have been offered to the Brisbane City found under the following conditions:­ Council as a Reserve for Park and/or (a) Multi-resistant properties-Cattle for Recreation Purposes and a contract was let immediate slaughter-two clean treat­ recently for two houses in Foxglove Street ments at 5- to 10-day intervals. Store and Cavendish Road. Apart from these cattle-three clean treatments at 5-day there are ten other sites requiring develop­ intervals. (b) Adjoining properties­ ment before use for housing. As the Where a prescribed programme is in opera­ Honourable Member is aware the areas tion-one clean treatment for cattle for previously described somewhat loosely as immediate slaughter, two clean treatments Mt. Gravatt were recently given precise for store cattle. Where a prescribed pro­ definition and the figures I have quoted gramme is not in operation-two clean refer to Mt. Gravatt East as defined in treatments at 5- to 10-day intervals for the Government Gazette on July 15, 1967." slaughter cattle-three clean treatments at 5-day intervals for store cattle. (c) Cattle are required to be clean and dipped within STABILISATION SCHEME FOR PINEAPPLE 72 hours prior to movement. Store cattle INDUSTRY cleared in the prescribed manner are free Mr. Hodges, pursuant to notice, asked to move to any part of Queensland on the The Minister for Primary Industries,- same basis as other cattle." ( 1) Is he aware that in 1960 pineapple growers, by ballot, approved of a stabilisa­ tion plan for their industry which on sub­ HOME-OWNERSHIP APPLICATIONS, mission to the authorities was found could HOUSING COMMISSION not be legally implemented? Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- (2) If the industry desires to put for­ ward another scheme for stabilisation, will ( 1) What is the number of applications it be necessary for another ballot to be at present lodged with the Queensland conducted before the scheme can be Housing Commission for home ownership adopted? by applicants in (a) the metropolitan area and (b) the rest of the State? ( 3) In the event of a stabilisation plan being submitted, will he, before a ballot (2) What was the number of houses is taken, take steps to ascertain if any made available for home ownership from such plan for stabilisation will benefit the the Commonwealth-State Housing fund and whole industry and all pineapple growers the Queensland Housing Commission fund and not be loaded in any way so that the from July 1, 1967, to February 29, 1968? plan would favour only a few? (3) Of the above number, how many were built by (a) private contractors and Answers:­ (b) day labour? (1) "Yes."

Answers:- (2) "There is presently no authority in law to hold a ballot of growers on this ( 1) "The number of current home­ question." ownership applications, inclusive of cases where building contracts have been let but (3) "The Honourable Member may rest house construction not completed, is (a) assured that appropriate steps will be taken 213, and (b) 534." to ensure that any plan requiring Govern­ ment approval has the strong support of (2) "The number of houses acquired growers." by borrowers and purchasers in this period was 308 from the Commonwealth-State Housing Fund and 286 from the Queens­ EXTENSION OF LEASE, "MIRTNA" land Housing Commission Fund." PASTORAL HOLDING (3) "(a) 530; (b) 64." Mr. Cobum for Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Lands,- ( 1) Was the lease of "Mirtna" pastoral HousiNG CoMMISSION PRoJECT, MT. holding extended for thirty years as from GRAVATT EAsT April, 1967, and, if so, for what reason, Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked at what rental and under what conditions? The Minister for Works,- (2) Were extensions of other pastoral Has any vacant land been sold by the leases refused during the years 1964, 1965, Queensland Housing Commission in the 1966 and 1967 and, if so, what leases and Mt. Gravatt East Housing Commission for what reasons? Questions [26 MARCH] Questions 2535

( 3) Will extensions of existing pastoral of treating these deposits in north-west leases be granted in future and, if so, under Queensland. The company has not yet what conditions? reached any conclusion."

Answers:- TAXI LICENCES ( 1) "Pursuant to the provlS!ons of the Land Acts and in consonance with Govern­ Mr. Ramsden, pursuant to notice, asked ment policy the lessee of "Mirtna" The Minister for Transport,- pastoral holding surrendered the then ( 1) How many licensees holding licences existing lease (due to expire March 31, to drive a taxi have had their licences 1969) and was granted a new pastoral (a) suspended, (b) cancelled and (9) lease over the whole area for a term of refused renewal on application within the 30 years from April 1, 1967-annual last twelve months up to the end of rental $5.85 per sq. mile. The arrangement February, and on whose authority? whereby the lessee company was granted (2) If this will cause too many diffi­ the new lease incorporated surrender by culties administratively, will he alternatively the company of the whole of Nibbereena give the figures for the financial year 1967 pastoral holding, and parts of Frankfield and up to the last day of February, 1968? and Beresford holdings to the Crown." ( 3) How many of the suspensions, (2) "Each expiring pastoral lease is cancellations or refusals in each of .the considered in the light of particular above categories have been effected prior circumstances obtaining at the material to the Superintendent of Traffic calling time: a new lease is usually offered over upon such licensees to "show cause", under the whole area if it is not substantially in the Traffic Acts, why they should not have excess of a reasonable living area. Where action taken by the Superintendent? appropriate, several holdings held by the one lessee may be considered in con­ junction and, in practice, all proposals are Answers:- negotiated between the Department and (1) "(a) Thirty-four. Thirty of these the lessee. Having regard to the nature following suspension of driving licences of this policy I am not aware of any by a Superintendent of Traffic; two by outright refusal of a new lease over part Courts for driving under the influence of of the aggregate area held by any liquor or a drug, and two by the Com­ particular lessee." missioner for Transport-one for refusing a hiring and being discourteous to the ( 3) "Pastoral leases will continue to be hirer and one for not operating his cab. renewed in accordance with law and (b) Two. Both by the Commissioner for existing policy under the usual conditions." Transport for a breach of the terms and conditions of their licences in that they were fully engaged in other employment. GREENVALE NICKEL AND CLONCURRY (c) Four. By the Commissioner for PHOSPHATE DEPOSITS Transport-three for bad traffic records Mr. Cobum for Mr. Aikens, pursuant to and the fourth because the licensee had notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- left the town where he was licensed and Have any investigations been made into was living elsewhere." the possibility of treatment of the Green­ vale nickel and Cloncurry phosphate (2) "See Answer to (1) ." deposits in North Queensland, and, if so, ( 3 ) "Seven. In all of these cases a have any conclusions been formed or Superintendent of Traffic would have had decisions made? no jurisdiction in the matter." Answer:- "Metals Exploration N.L. and Freeport EDUCATIONAL AND VOCATIONAL Sulphur of Australia Pty. Ltd., which are GUIDANCE OFFICERS the companies holding the Greenvale area Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked under Authority to Prospect, are under­ The Minister for Education,- taking feasibility studies to determine the With regard to the Guidance Branch, possible future economic working of the Department of Education,- deposit. It is understood these studies are being directed particularly towards treating ( 1) How many guidance officers at the the ore in North Queensland. The com­ (a) Brisbane, (b) Toowoomba and (c) panies have not yet reached any con­ Townsville centres are concerned with clusions. What are apparently the most educational and vocational guidance? significant phosphate deposits discovered in (2) How many guidance officers at the north-west Queensland are being intensively same centres are concerned with clinical drilled by the holder of the Authority to guidance? Prospect over them, Broken Hill South ( 3) What is the basis on which educa­ Ltd. This company also is having a tional and vocational guidance officers are feasibility study made into the economics allocated to high schools? 2536 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

( 4) What are the qualifications required INVESTIGATION INTO NAZI PARTY by persons wishing to be appointed as ACTIVITIES educational and vocational guidance officers? Mr. Brornley, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- (5) What in-service courses or additional facilities for training are provided by the ( 1) Has any investigation been made Education Department for officers in both into the activities of members of the Nazi of these spheres? Party in Queensland apart from the recent conviction of Eric Ray Wenberg of being Answers:- in possession of an unlicensed .25 auto­ matic pistol? If so, to what extent has the ( I) "Educational and vocational investigation progressed? guidance is provided to high schools throughout the State by a staff of nineteen (2) Does a branch of the Nazi Party guidance officers located at the Brisbane exist in Queensland? office and three regional guidance officers in Townsville, Rockhampton and Too­ ( 3) Is it true that young people claiming woomba. All officers based in Brisbane to be Nazis are frequenting coffee lounges spend at least ten weeks each year on duty and other places where young people in country centres including the regional congregate, spreading racism and other centres serviced by permanent officers. One typical propaganda? additional officer for the regional office in Rockhampton is under training in Bris­ bane." Answer:- ( 1 to 3) "I do not consider that it is in (2) "Guidance officers are trained in the full range of guidance services provided the public interest to disclose details of by the Guidance and Special Education official activities in relation to organisa­ Branch. While there is a degree of tions having as their aim the subverting specialisation in the allocation of officers of our democratic way of life. Rather to work within the branch all twenty-five do I feel that it would be a public dis­ guidance officers at the Brisbane office service so to do. I do believe, however, spend some time in the clinical section. that persons having any information in Of these, six officers are on full time relation to any such organisation should duty in the clinical section assisted by not hesitate to communicate it to the two guidance assistants. Officers from the Police Department." Brisbane office visit country centres to provide clinical services to schools and to supplement the work of the three regional guidance officers in the Northern, KARUMBA WATER SUPPLY Central and Darling Downs regions." Mr. Bromley for Mr. Wallis-Smith, pur­ ( 3) "Guidance officers are allocated to suant to notice, asked The Minister for high schools on the basis of size of Local Government,- school, in particular on the number of Further to his Answer to my Question students in forms 10 and 12 where a on November 1, 1967, relating to the decision on further schooling or employ­ ment must be made." Karumba water supply- ( 1) Has sufficient water been obtained ( 4) "Qualifications for appointment to for domestic purposes and the final pro­ the position of guidance officer are--(a) cessing of prawns? Possession of a degree of a recognised University preferably including two years' (2) Has the investigation into the study of psychology; the possession of possibility of a desalination plant at higher qualifications in psychology and/or Karumba been completed and, if so, what post graduate study in education constitute is the result? additional qualifications for appointment. (b) Training and satisfactory experience in the practice of educational and clinical Allswers:- or vocational guidance preferably follow­ ( 1) "An artesian bore has been drilled ing teacher training and experience. (c) at Karumba. The water from this bore Personal suitability for guidance work." has high fluoride and ?ig? iron c~mtent (5) "Following their transfer to the and is unsuitable for dnnkmg, cookmg or Guidance and Special Education Branch final processing of prawns. Provided iron teachers are given a twelve months' course content can be reduced simply, it should of training consisting of lectures and guided be suitable, however, for ablutions, study in guidance principles and techniques laundry, washing down and some gardening and on-the-job training under experienced purposes. This information confirms that officers. All officers are encouraged to anticipated in my reply to you of undertake further studies in psychology November 1, 1967." and education at the University of Queens­ land." (2) "No."' Questions {26 MARCH] Questions 2537

PAYMENT FOR ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BY In the meantime, Dr. Sobey, of the Divi­ ASSISTANT STATION-MASTER, ALMADEN sion of Animal Genetics at Epping, is to process all data available and a complete Mr. Davies for Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant history of the importation of the flea is to notice, asked The Minister for Trans­ to be drawn up by Dr. J. Rendel port,- (C.S.I.R.O.) and circulated to aH State (1) Is he aware of the advertisement in representatives. It is thought at this stage Weekly Notice 7/68 of February 15, calling that most, if not all, States would be wil­ for applications for the position of 5th ling to take advantage of availability of class Assistant Sta:tion-Master at Almaden, the flea when the required data had been which requires the successful applicant to accumulated and distributed. A report by live in the railway house, and, in addition Mr. Mann on the proceedings of the meet­ to paying rent and rates to deposit ing held on March 12 will be considered $56.25 and promise to pay a minimum by the Rabbit Control Authority of yearly guarantee of $112.50 to the Cairns Queensland at its next meeting on April 2, Regional Electricity Board? 1968. As yet, no plans have been adopted (2) As these conditions impose an extra for use of the flea in Queensland." financial burden on applicants when com­ pared with applicants for similar positions in other areas, will he consider the removal SAFETY STANDARDS FOR NEW MOTOR of the conditions relating to electricity VEHICLES supply? Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Labour and Tourism,- Answer:- In view of the number of new vehicles (! and 2) "The yearly guarantee of of sub-standard condition, both mechanic­ $112.50 for electricity is required by the ally and structurally, being placed on the Cairns Regional Electricity Board. road, will he inaugurate a set of standards Employees in other areas where the for new vehicles and have the policy electricity undertaking requires payment of vigorously policed? a minimum yearly guarantee also are required to sign an agreement to pay the guarantee as determined by the electricity Answer:- authority." "The Question includes a very sweeping statement not necessarily supported by fact. If the Honourable Member is in USE OF FLEAS IN DISSEMINATION OF possession of any evidence to support his MYXOMATOSIS allegation, and will let me have it, I shall be only too pleased to have investigations Mr. W. D. Hewitt, pursuant to notice, made in regard thereto. The general posi­ asked The Minister for Lands,- tion is that it would not be possible for ( 1) Was Queensland represented at a Queensland to act unilaterally in a matter meeting of C.S.I.R.O. and agricultural such as this. There are two committees, experts at a conference in Sydney on with Commonwealth-wide representation, March 12, called to discuss the means of namely, the Australian Motor Vehicles dissemination of myxomatosis by a disease­ Standards Committee and the Australian carrying flea? If so, was a programme for Motor Vehicle Design Advisory Panel, the breeding and spreading of the flea which make recommendations regarding decided upon? construction and performance requirements (2) What plans, if any, have been of motor vehicles to the Australian Trans­ adopted for the use of the flea in Queens­ port Advisory Council, of which my land? colleague, the Honourable Minister for Transport, is a member. After adoption, the requirements are policed by motor Answers:- vehicle inspection authorities. Where any ( 1) "Queensland was represented by apparent weakness in design is encoun­ Mr. John Mann, Director of The Alan tered, the matter is investigated and, where Fletcher Research Station, Sherwood, at necessary, drawn to the attention of the the meeting of representatives from all manufacturers." States held on March 12, 1968, at the C.S.I.R.O. Division of Animal Genetics, Epping, New South Wales, to discuss the UsE OF STEAM LOCOMOTIVES IN WET European rabbit flea in general and how SEASON EMERGENCIES best to organise its eventual dissemination." Mr. Davies for Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to (2) "It was decided at such meeting that notice, asked The Minister for Transport,- another meetmg should be convened to ( 1) Has consideration been given in the consider further action, when additional programming and complete dieselization of data was available, and that the same the Queensland Railways for stand-by representatives meet in Melbourne on or steam locomotives to be placed in traffic about October 9, 1968, when the Inter­ immediately during flooding of the per­ state Vermin Conference is to be held. manent way? 2538 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

(2) If w, will locomotive servicing, coal VACANT GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, CAIIL"lS and watering facilities be maintained at Mr. Davies for Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to specific locations for this purpose to enable notice, asked The Minister for Labour and steam services to be introduced for wet Tourism,- season emergencies, as instanced by the Has any decision been made in regard need during the period of local fioodings in to the use of the buildings and offices North Queensland in February? recently vacated by the Inspector of Weights and Measures, Shields Street, and the Inspectors of Motor Vehicles and of Answer:- Scaffolding, Abbott Street, Cairns? If so, (1 and 2) "No." to what Departments has this accommo­ dation been allocated? Answer:- INSTALLATION OF TRAFFIC LIGHTS, "The matter of the aHocation of accom­ CAIRNS modation among Departments does not lVIr. Davies for Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to come within my portfolio." notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- ( 1) Is it the intention in the near future COURT HOUSE AND POLICE STATION, to install pedestrian-actuated traffic lights WYNNUM along the new four-lane development of Mr. Davies for Mr. Harris, pursuant to the Bruce and Cook Highways for the notice, asked The Minister for Works,- safety of school children? (1) As the new Court House, Wynnum, has been officially opened, when will the (2) If not, will he consider the follow­ old unsightly wooden court house be ing points for arrangement of pedestrian­ removed? actuated traffic lights, as a matter of (2) Is it proposed to commence con­ urgency, due to the increased volume of struction of a new police station at traffic and hazard which must follow each Wynnum during the current financial year? stage of construction of the new four-lane highway through Cairns, viz. (a) Stage 1 ( 3) Have plans and specifications been prepared for a new police station at Bruce Highway---Severin Street, serving Wynnum? Parramatta State School, St. Joseph's Con­ vent, St. Augustine's College, shopping ( 4) Is he aware of the shockingly cramped and overcrowded conditions under centre and showgrounds, (b) Stage 2 Cook which the police officers are working in Highway-corner Florence and Sheridan the old wooden police residence? Streets, serving Opportunity School, Central State School, St. Monica's and Norman (5) Is he aware that the C.I.B. at Wynnum have inadequate interviewing Park, (c) Stage 3 Bruce Highway­ rooms excluding the public verandahs and McCoombe Street, serving Balaclava State a small bedroom? School and (d) Stage 4 Cook Highway­ Tobruk Memorial Baths, serving North (6) If so, what urgent steps are to be Cairns State School, Good Counsel Con­ taken to remedy the position? vent and Sports Reserve? Answers:- ( 1) "It is proposed to retain the old Answers:- Court House for use until a new police station is provided." ( 1) "It is not intended at present to (2) "No." install pedestrian-actuated lights on the four-lane development of the Bruce and (3) "Sketch plans only have been Cook Highways in Cairns as pedestrian and prepared." traffic volumes do not meet the warrant ( 4) "The conditions at the police station specified in the Manual of Uniform Traffic at Wynnum are not shocking. Cramped Control Devices applying to such installa­ conditions are experienced when the tions. However, the Honourable Member majority of the police attached to the can be assured that the type of road work station are using the office accommodation." now being constructed in this area, con­ (5) "There are times when the C. I. sisting of a central median and divided strips Branch at Wynnum has inadequate inter­ between the through carriageways and the viewing rooms. The verandah has been local service roads, will enable pedestrians converted to office accommodation and no to cross in much greater safety than on room is now used as a bedroom." the existing two-way pavements." (6) "The provision of funds for the erection of a new police station at (2) "When the warrants for pedestrian Wynnum will receive consideration with lights are met, the order of priority sug­ other building requirements when the gested by the Honourable Member will be Works Programme for 1%8-69 is being taken into consideration." prepared." Land Acts [26 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2539

PAPERS Whilst a member of the Land Court he was The foUowing papers were laid on the appointed chairman and convenor of a com­ table:- mittee of inquiry into the matters con­ cerning the timber industry, milling and Orders in Council under- log-marketing problems in Queensland. The State Electricity Commission Acts, 1937 to 1965. In recognition of his long and distinguished The Electric Light and Power Acts, 1896 service to the State of Queensland he was to 1967. awarded the M.B.E. in 1963. The Southern Electric Authority of This short reference to Mr. McLean's Queensland Acts, 1952 to 1964. history recalls something of the great service The Northern Electric Authority of he rendered to his State in general and to Queensland Acts, 1963 to 1964. the Department of Lands and the Land Court in particular. He was very highly regarded in all circles, and is fondly FORM OF QUESTION remembered by the many people who had a close association with him over the years. Mr. RAMSDEN (Merthyr) having given His colleagues and his subordinates were notice of two questions- always full of praise for this fine gentleman Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ whose passing we now mourn. ber's first question is out of order. It asks I know that many hon. members would whether a newspaper article is, in effect, have known him personally, and with me correct. The question will have to be altered and my officers will now feel the loss of a before it can be accepted. great friend and a man whose contribution in public affairs over a period of 53 years ELECTRICAL WORKERS AND earned him a permanent mark in the records CONTRACTORS ACTS AMENDMENT of this State. BILL I turn now to the Bill before the Com­ INITIATION mittee. It deals with trusts and, in particular, trusts benefiting the public, as distinct from Hon. H. RICHTER (Somerset-Minister what might be called personal or private for Local Government and Conservation), for trusts. Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Minister The Bill is not concerned with trusts con­ for Mines, Main Roads and Electricity): I stituted under the Land Acts for one of the move- many public purposes specified therein, and "That the House will, at its present it is important when considering the Bill sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of to remember this. The trusts that we are the Whole to consider introducing a Bill dealing with are trusts constituted under the to amend the Electrical Workers and Con­ Real Property Acts by persons who desire the tractors Acts, 1962 to 1964, in certain trust property to be used for purposes which particulars." basically are public purposes. For example, Motion agreed to. there are trusts constituted under the Real Property Acts for such purposes as race­ courses, public halls, recreation and sporting LAND ACIS AMENDMENT BILL grounds, and so on. No doubt many hon. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE members have had experience with these in their own localities, and possibly may be (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, members of such trusts. Greenslopes, in the chair) During the passage of time, such trusts Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ can get into difficulty. For one technical Minister for Lands) (11.49 a.m.): I move­ reason or another, the trust can become "That a Bill be introduced to amend the inoperative in law, and the trustees may find Land Acts, 1962 to 1967, in a certain themselves in a position where they are particular." unable to carry on. Some trusts can fail or Before proceeding with the proposed Bill, cease to function because of changing I should like to make reference to the circumstances and a lack of interest on the passing of Mr. William Malcolm McLean, part of the community for whose benefit the of whose death hon. members possibly read trust was originally created. I am sure hon. in this morning's "Courier-Mail". Mr. members have had experience of that sort McLean joined the Department of Lands in of thing over the years. 1907, at the age of 17. In 1938 he was In the past, if the trust in question was of appointed secretary of the Land Administra­ sufficient importance to warrant it, special tion Board and in 1939 became secretary to legislation was introduced to regularise the the Wool Advisory Commission with the late particular case. At present I have two cases Sir William Payne as Commissioner. In before me, one of which is relatively 1944 he was appointed Member of the Land important. However, rather than provide a Administration Board, of which he became special Bill to deal with a particular case, chairman in 1946. In 1952 he was appointed we have decided that it is more satisfactory Member of the Land Court, in which position to provide legislation of a general nature, in he served until his retirement in August, terms of which each case might be con­ 1960. sidered on its merits and appropriate action 2540 Land Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

taken to either regularise the trust or wind and became difficult to locate, which cer­ it up as the case may require, having regard tainly causes problems. This Bill gives to community interest. authority to clean up such trusts. Where, in Machinery to regularise a trust is pro­ these circumstances, there is no person with vided under two headings. Firstly, trustees power of appointment of new trustees, or if under a trust which is for a public purpose, there is such person and he is unwilling or or a purpose substantially similar, may apply unable to act, the Bill provides machinery to the Minister for permission to surrender to get around the difficulty. title to the Crown. If, after appropriate inquiry, the Minister grants such permission, In this case where, under the normal rules, the trustees may surrender the land to the it is impossible to reorganise a trust or it is Crown, whereupon the Governor in Council not desirable to reorganise the trust, the local must grant the land upon trust to the authority for the area wherein the land is trustees for the particular public purpose situated may make application to the Minister concerned. for a declaration that the land revest in the It will be noted that the new trust will be Crown and, subject to the Minister being a trust constituted under the Land Acts and satisfied with the application, the Minister will be subject to those provisions of the may declare by notification in the Govern­ Land Acts which govern public trusts con­ ment Gazette that the land shall revest in stituted thereunder. As the trust is for a the Crown. Thereupon the Minister may con­ public purpose, this action is desirable and stitute a fresh trust having regard to the will in no way inhibit the use of the trust requirements of the local authority and the property for the purposes of the trust. community, or the land may be dealt with as Crown land depending on the circum­ A special provision in the Bill makes it stances of the case. The purpose of this clear that for security purposes, in circum­ provision is to provide a way of tidying-up stances where a mortgagee finds it necessary trust property which is no longer required to exercise his rights under a mortgage, the or which may be required by the community title to the land is as good as it was prior for some other purpose. Those, then, are the to the conversion of the trust to a trust under two machinery provisions contained in the and subject to the Land Acts. This machin­ Bill. ery provision will enable trustees under a defective trust to make application for the Before the Minister may grant trustees constitution of a fresh trust and, provided permission to surrender, or before he may the trustees can satisfy me as to the circum­ declare that the trust property revest in the stances of the application, particularly as to Crown, he must be satisfied that the trust the nature of the impediment preventing their is not subject to any gift or provision which efficient management of the trust property, would prevent the trustees from surrendering the Governor in Council will take the neces­ the land to the Crown. If the t.'llst is subject sary action to constitute a fresh trust so that to any such gift or provision, the person the work of the trustees may continue for entitled to the benefit must surrender the the benefit of the community. entitlement and consent to the surrender of the trust property. If the land is subject to To illustrate the point, one of the cases any mortgage or encumbrance, the Minister before me at the moment relates to the must be satisfied that the mortgagee or Toowoomba Racecourse, known as Clifford encumbrancee has given his consent to the Park. It is appropriate that this Bill is being surrender. If the trust property is subject to dealt with this week as it is carnival week any lease, tenancy or licence, the lessee, for the Toowoomba Race Club, in associa­ tenant or licensee must give consent to the tion with the Toowoomba Show. The instru­ surrender of the land. ment of trust (in this case a nomination of trustees) inadvertently omitted to specify that To ensure public awareness of the making the trustees were appointed to hold the land of any application under the amendment, upon trust for the benefit of the Toowoomba notice of intention to make an application Turf Club. The instrument of trust is silent must be published in a newspaper circulating as to the beneficiary thereunder and therefore generally in Queensland and in a newspaper is defective in law. Because of this defect, circulating generally in the area of the local the trustees are unable to execute a valid authority in which the land is situated. Not security for moneys they need to borrow and less than 30 days' or more than 60 days' it becomes necessary to regularise matters if the Toowoomba Racecourse is to continue to notice must be given. function. The machinery now provided will The Bill provides that upon surrender of meet the case. the land or upon revesting of the land in the The second approach is designed to clean Crown, as the case may be, the trustees are up trusts which have ceased to function. In freed and discharged from all further duties this case the trustees may be dead, there and liabilities under the trust. The land may be uncertainty as to trusteeship, the reverts to the Crown for appropriate action. trustees cannot be found, or they may refuse In the case of trust property surrendered by to act or be incapable of acting. I am sure trustees, the Governor in Council must then that all hon. members have had experience of grant the land upon trust for the public this in the past. Trustees may have been purpose concerned. Where land is surren­ appointed many years ago, and may subse­ dered with the consent of an encumbrancee, quently have sold out and left the district the encumbrance is saved and the fresh grant Land Acts [26 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2541

issues subject to the encumbrance. Similarily, should possibly have been obvious in the the fresh grant becomes subject to any history of a department. As the Minister mortgage that is carried forward. pointed out, in some cases special Bills have The Bill has been drawn carefully, and been introduced. I appreciate that the Bill I am confident that its operation will be now before us does not deal with the situation useful for the purpose of regularising in that way; it is being introduced to amend defective trusts and tidying up trusts which the legislation so that all such situations will have fulfilled their objectives and which are be covered in the future. no longer required for the particular purpose I suppose it would not be wrong for me for which they were originally designed. to pay a tribute at this stage to those who I commend the motion for favourable set up private trusts for the benefit of consideration. the community. It must be realised, of course, that those trusts do not come under Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (12.2 p.m.): the Land Act. Such people take parts of Firstly, I extend congratulations to the their estates, which would be freehold pro­ Minister on his elevation to Cabinet. It perty, and transfer them to trusts for the must be gratifying to him and his family benefit of the community. Sometimes this is that he has been promoted. We will, of done for the purpose of setting up memorial course, have to wait a considerable time trusts in memory of the fallen in wars, and before we express congratulations on his sometimes the benefit to the community takes performance as Minister for Lands. This is the form of, for example, racecourse reserves one of the "hot" seats in Cabinet, and has and playground reserves. Those who show been so for generations. The Minister's such thoughtfulness are to be commended. predecessor, the Honourable A. R. Fletcher, As the Minister has pointed out, such while implementing a policy that does not trusts sometimes encounter difficulties. find favour with those on this side of the Perhaps the need for them no longer exists; Chamber, did bring to his task a good deal perhaps the interest of the local community of thought, sympathy and concern for people is no longer there. One can imagine the on the land. He, too, found the path a position of a reserve in a mining town that thorny one. Having left that portfolio and became a ghost town, where there would gone to Education and Cultural Activities, be virtually no need for the original purpose he can feel quite satisfied that he did a good of the trust. It is also recognised that a job in the light of his own policy and his trust could lose its original purpose as the party's approach to land matters. That view result of a declining interest in some activity may not be shared by all sections of the in the community. community, but this is a difficult portfolio It is known, too, that the forms in which and no person is confronted with this indi­ such trusts were set up were imperfect. vidual problem more than the Minister for During discussion of this matter with a friend Lands. Every person concerned with the the other day the expression "imperfect land has his own policy on land matters. As obligation" was used. It seems to me that I say, I congratulate the Minister on his that very aptly describes the situation of the elevation to Cabinet rank, and I hope that trusts that the Minister has in mind. in the future congratulations will be in order for his having contributed something to the The Opposition listened keenly to the welfare of the State even though it may not introduction of the Bill. Naturally, we will be in line with what we on this side of the approve of anything that is for the benefit Chamber believe is the suitable policy of the community. The Minister outlined his politically. case very clearly. It is our responsibility to I join with the Minister in his expression of examine the Bill very carefully when it is condolence to the relatives of the late Mr. printed, and I can assure the Committee that William Malcolm McLean, M.B.E. He we will do that. figured in the adminstration of land matters However, the points raised by the Minister in this State before I entered Parliament. were very important and, as I said earlier. As the Minister stated, he had quite a he put his case rather well. He stressed distinguished career. It is to be regretted that the word "may", I think-that the trustees the passing of time brought about his retire­ under trusts for public purposes "may" apply ment, and finally the end of a good life for permission to surrender the title to the spent in the service of the State. He con­ Crown. That is important. To the minds tributed much to Queensland. and we of the of members of the Opposition, it removes Opposition entirely concur with the Minister any idea that there will be compulsion rela­ in his message of condolence to the relatives tive to matters such as this, and at this and his expression of appreciation of the juncture that is on the credit side of the work of a man who gave a lifetime of ledger of this proposed Bill. The trust can service to the State. then be granted in that form to a new trust The Bill, as the Minister outlined it, is under the Land Act. Again, that ensures very clear, and I should like to say that he that the original purpose for which the trust presented his case very well. We know that was founded will be perpetuated, and the from time to time matters similar to the one Minister then told the Committee that the now before us are raised in legislation that is mortgagee will have his rights preserved under presented in an attempt to tidy up what transfer. 2542 Land Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

I _do not believe that the proposed Bill _Mr •. WHARTO!"l: In common with every reqmres a great deal of comment. Possibly fa:r-hmred man m the House, he is very the greatest amount of trouble will occur fa1r. If one looks at the hair of the Premier relative to trusts that have become defunct one can readily realise that the Government This subject has also been well canvassed will fall over backwards to be fair. by the Minister, but we shall examine the provisions to see that all aspects are covered. Opposition Members interjected. I assure the Minister that the Opposition will undertake its task very assiduously. The CHAIRlVIAN: Order! Hon. members on this side of the Chamber Mr. WHARTON: May I say that the Bill are indeed pleased that the Minister has been has been well and favourably introduced by frank and has revealed to us that the Clifford Park Racecourse is one of the areas involved. the Minister. It is a very essential Bill, more Naturally, if the Minister had brought the particularly as it is of a general nature and Bill before the Committee and somebody had in the public interest. That is important, then suggested that it gave preference to a because our foremost concern must be to see particular organisation, members of the that public interest is preserved. Opposition would have been very ropeable Land trusts are, shall we say, orders of the and probably w<:u!d have made a very strong day of long standing and, without reiterating attack on the Mm1ster for concealing the fact that one body was to receive preferential them, all the points raised by the Minister treatment. indicated that this one is very much in ,the public interest. I go along with the hon. I should say that the Minister has made member for Barcoo, who raised the matters a very good approach to placing the provi­ sions of the proposed Bill before the Com­ that he did in the right spirit because this Bill mittee and has been both informative and is in the public interest and is therefore honest about what he is bringing forward. justified. !he Op~osition, therefore, will take great I did want to raise a matter relative to a m_terest m. th<: ~ill wht:n it is printed and reserve in my own electorate, under the con­ Wlll examme 1t m detail. If there is any trol of the Gin Gin Show Society. This is ?spect of it that deserves criticism, the Min­ a very progressive society and provides very Ister can be assured that that criticism will fine amenities for the public in staging its be given very sensibly. annual show, which depicts the various under­ takings in the Gin Gin area. The reserve is ..M~. WHARTON (Burnett) (12.13 p.m.): I also used by the school for sports purposes JOin m the debate on the introduction of the and by the local pony club. The society has propose~ _Bill because of the importance of effected many improvements .to the grounds­ Jts J?roV!Sions to a good many people, and a grandstand, dining facilities and amenities particularly because of its importance to the of that nature. In addition, the grounds con­ public interest. tain a very fine ring. I join with the Minister in expressing sympathy to the relatives of the late Mr. With the introduction of a septic or sewer­ McLean. It is unfortunate that the Minister age system into the area, ,this society is faced on the occasion of his first introductio~ with a good deal of expense. As hon. mem­ of a Bill in this Chamber, should have a bers know, the Government commendably motion of condolence in his hand, but death i~troduoed legislation to permit local authori­ comes to all of us. I am glad that the ties to be trustees of these reserves, and in Minister raised the matter, and I reiterate this instance the show society feels that the public interest may be better catered for if the that I join with him in his expressions of local authority undertook this responsibility. sympathy. This would permit the society to continue to This is the first opportunity I have had in function in the capable manner it has in the this Chamber of congratulating the Minister past. However, the local authority is upon his elevation to Cabinet rank, and I reluctant to accept a trusteeship, thereby smcerely congratulate him upon his appoint­ precluding further expansion of the pro­ ment as Minister for Lands. As the hon. gressive outlook of the show society. member for Bar~o? said, we _do not know yet how good a 1\!l.!mster he w11l be; time will The Minister might see fit to comment on tell. What we do know is that we can-- this matter in his reply. As I have said, the show society is very keen to progress in the Mr. Davies: Haven't you got very much !nterests of the district but the local authority confidence in him? 1s reluctant to accept the responsibility of further financing this reserve. The matter for Mr. WHARTON: If the hon. member consideration now is whether the show would only listen, he could learn a lot. It is society should allow the reserve to revert to one of the qualities of the hon. member for the Crown in order to have other trustees J\Iaryborough that he never listens. appointed. I should like the Minister to The CHAIRMAN: Order! comment on this aspect of the matter. I again commend the Minister on his intro­ Mr. WHARTON: We can be assured that duction of the Bill; I agree .that it is in the the Minister will be fair. public interest an~ that of the State generally, An Opposition Member: He is very fair! and I commend 1t to the Committee. Land Acts Amendmelll Bill [26 MARCH] Offenders Probation, &c., Bd! 2543

Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ the local authority, but the local authority Minister for Lands) (12.19 p.m.), in reply: I is not anxious to take over the functions or thank both the hon. member for Barcoo and the financial commitments of the trustees. the hon. member for Bumett for their Something like $8,000 is involved in expressions of congratulation, spoken very providing sewered toilets alone. sincerely, I believe, and with kind and happy expressions on their faces. Let us hope that However, the trustees of the show society the situation remains that way. I know that are still negotiating with the local authority, the hon. member for Barcoo is 'the man and the trustees were informed by my who fairly and diligently leads the debate for department that the department would con­ the Opposition on land matters and I have sider the excision of a small part of the always found him to be very fair. Sometimes trust property in order that the excised area I have felt that he could be one of us on this might be handed over to the local authority side. Nevertheless, he measures up to his so that the local authority could build public responsibilities keenly and enthusiastically and toilets on the excised area. The whole ques­ I very much appreciate his congratulations. tion, of course, is subject to the agreement of I realise that the job of Minister for Lands is the shire, and the outcome of negotiations a very onerous one, as my immediate pre­ between the trustees and the shire is awaited. decessor and other former Ministers for This was merely a suggested way of over­ Lands would agree. Nevertheless, I have a coming the problem, and it may or may not job to do. be satisfactory to the shire. However that is the position at the present time. ' The hon. member commended me for my frankness and honesty in bringing out into Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. the open the problem of the Clifford Park Resolution reported. Racecourse. I assure the hon. member that however long I am Minister for Lands he FIRST READING will always find that of me. I never want to conceal anything; I always bring every­ Bill presented and, on moti0n of Mr. thing out into the open. I believe that that Sullivan, read a first time. is as it should be. The hon. member for Maryborough OFFENDERS PROBATION AND PAROLE interjected that I was here only for 12 ACT AMENDMENT BILL months' experience. I feel that the experience I will gain in that period of 12 months will SECOND READING ensure that I am here considerably longer. Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE {Bowen­ Through you, Mr. Hooper, I thank the Minister for Justice) (12.25 p.rn.): I move- hon. member for Barcoo very much for his "That the Bill be now read a second kind remarks. I am grateful to my depart­ time." mental officers. It was because of their efforts that I was able to outline in a very clear The purpose of this Bill, which contemplates manner the details of the amending legisla­ similar and complementary !egislation in tion. It is true that there are many of these other States, is to furnish a statutory basis for trusts in existence. Through no fault of effective supervision of probationers and anybody they get into difficulties. People prisoners on parole who leave the State where forget about them and they get into the probation or parole has been granted in order position where this type of legislation is to reside in another State or Territory of the necessary to tidy them up. Commonwealth. The other day the hon. member for Burnett The present provisions of the Act require mentioned the problem that he brought up that a person released on probation or parole today. I made some enquiries, and for the in Queensland shall be under the supervision benefit of hon. members it may be interesting of, and report at regular intervals to, a pro­ if I indicate to the Committee just what the bation or parole officer, and these require­ problem is and how we believe it can be ments are practicable only when the pro­ solved. A similar problem could crop up in bationer or parolee resides within the State. other places. The first major change to the present Act The Gin Gin Show Society advertises the is necessary to cover the case of the person achievements of what might be termed "a released on probation or parole in this State small rural community". Of course, its who is required or permitted to ·reside in sources of income are not extensive. It was another State. The Bill wilJ impose specific for shows such as this one that the Govern­ requirements that unless the probation or ment instituted its scheme of granting sub­ parole order specifically permits or requires sidies to show societies in respect of expendi­ the person the subject of the order to reside ture on capital works. or remain out of the State, he must remain in Queensland during the period of the order. The Gin Gin Show Society is now faced with the problem of complying with the The supervising court or the Chief Pro­ requirements of the local authority that bation Officer of the Parole Board, as the sewerage be installed on the showgrounds. case may be, may permit, as a temporary I understand, as the hon. member pointed measure, the probationer or prisoner con­ out, that the cost of installing sewerage is cerned to move out of the State for such beyond the society's financial resources. The time and upon such terms and conditions as trustees have discussed their problems with it or he deems fit. 2544 Offenders Probation and [ASSEMBLY] Parole Act Amendment Bill

The probation and parole officers of over the border-it is something like the another State or Territory shall be deemed television Westerner galloping across the to be probation and parole officers of this border into Mexico-and negating the State with respect to probationers and probation or parole order and endangering parolees who are living in another State or the parole system through the ease with Territory of the Commonwealth pursuant to which they escape the jurisdiction of the a probation or parole order made in this order. State. Not only does it endanger the system by Provision is written into the Bill to prevent g1vmg other persons the idea that .they can a probationer or parolee residing in another do the same but also, from the personal State pursuant to the relevant order, from viewpoint of the welfare of the parolee or being dealt with both in that State and in probationer, ~t endangers the individual Queensland for the same breach of ·the requirements of his order. A probationer or because the whole basis of the system is to parolee moving to another State or Territory assist such person to rehabilitate himself. He without permission will breach the require­ endangers himself just as much, or perhaps ments of his order, and may be brought back more so, by taking advantage of any loose­ to this State under the provisions relating to ness in the present legislation. the execution of legal process. The Minister in this State and Ministers The Bill also provides that any action taken of other States and of .the Commonwealth by a court or by a Parole Board of that State who are contemplating complementary or Territory by way of amendment, cancella­ legislation are to be commended for stopping tion or variation of the order, will be accepted up this gap in the system of probation and in this State as an amendment, cancellation parole. I think we can take some pleasure or variation of the order. from the fact that Queensland, Victoria and The second major change provided by the Western Australia have a statutory system of Bill relates to the operation in this State of probation that apparently the other States are probation and parole orders made in another now moving towards. I think that is most State or Territory where the probationer or desirable. prisoner concerned resides in this State pur­ As these matters were well canvassed at suant to the relevant order. The provisions the introductory stage, the only points of the Bill relating to this change endeavour necessary for me to deal with are any reserva­ to apply to such probationers and prisoners tions we have with the actual Bill now that the principles applicable to probationers and we have sighted it. There are two matters prisoners released on probation or parole in that I request the Minister to examine. He this State. However, when such a person has made provision, quite wisely, for breaches the requirements of his order, this ex-officio members of the Board (such as the State will duly recognise the paramount right Under Secretary of his department, and the of ·the other State or Territory to deal with Comptroller-General of Prisons) to nominate the probationer or parolee for the breach in a proxy when they are unable to attend a question. meeting of the Board. But the Minister has Other significant changes in the Bill- not been consistent because he proposes to (1) confer power on the Parole Board, omit the present provision that will not allow in addition to its present powers of can­ a meeting of the Board without the presence cellation, amendment or variation, to of the chairman and to allow such a meeting, suspend a parole order; in emergent circumstances if the chairman of the Board, a Supreme Court judge, is engaged (2) enable the ex-officio members of the on other duties at a time when a matter of Board to nominate a deputy to attend the urgency arises for consideration by the Board, meetings of the Board on their behalf; and and if four members of the Board consider it (3) provide that a meeting of the Board necessary. To me that seems to down-grade may, in certain circumstances, be called the validity of having a judge on the Board in to consider urgent matters even though the first instance as chairman of 1!he Board the chairman is unable to attend the meet­ and the original intent that there could not be ing. a meeting without his being present as chair­ That, in brief, covers the important provisions man. It is important, as the Minister said, of the Bill. not to hold up an urgent matter because of the inability of a Supreme Court judge, as Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.30 p.m.): I chairman, to attend at a particular time. regret that I was not able to be here when Although I can well imagine that that could the Minister introduced the measure. I have cause inconvenience and distress on some examined his remarks and those of the occasions, I do not think that the situation Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy should be resolved merely by saying, "In Leader of the Opposition. The Minister gave these circumstances, we will proceed without us a lucid outline of the legislation and the the judge." Even though that might happen Opposition leader and deputy leader covered only in a situation of emergency, it seems the points applicable to the measure. fundamental to me that a judge should be a Probably it is a sign that we are still member of the Board. Dispensing with him developing our system of probation and simply because he happens to be in Rock­ parole that dle scheme has been able to work hampton, Townsville or some other place on as well as it has up .till now with the diffi­ other duties seems to me to down-grade the culties the Minister outlined of people going importance of having him there at all. If he Offenders Probation and [26 MARCH] Parole Act Amendment Bill 2545

can be done without on Monday, for example, fair, or entirely necessary, for a person under it would seem that he could be done without a probation order to be asked to recognise for the rest of ·the week. It must be remem­ implications in such an order or to provide bered also that such a situation would arise that he becomes guilty of an offence and only on a very important matter, because can be dealt with quite severely if he does otherwise it could easily be deferred till the not view the implications with the same mind, judge returned from his circuit work or or perhaps with the same capacity, as the whatever work he was at·tending to. makers of the probation order. For that Matters to be dealt with by the Board reason, I should have thought that the simple include the cancelling of probation orders provision that a breach of compliance with and parole orders, and I do not think it the requirements of the order would be suf­ desirable that they should be considered ficient, without giving the order an additional without the benefit of a judge's presence. arm and making an offence out of an allega­ tion of a lack of compliance with an implied I have not had the opportunity to prepare requirement of an order. an amendment. However, I should have Apart from those two matters, I do not preferred to see a provision under which think there is anything in the Bill that does another judge could take the place of the not follow the outline given by the Minister chairman of the Board in the chairman's and the basis on which it was well received absence. That is one point on which I should and accepted by the Opposition and by like the Minister to comment, as I feel that members of the House generally. Therefore, the presence of a judge is fundamental to I leave any further comment till I hear the composition of the Board. Although I the Minister's reply on those points. appreciate that at times circumstances would require that matters be dealt with without Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen-Min­ awaiting the return of the chairman, I should ister for Justice) (12.42 p.m.), in reply: The like to see it made possible for another points raised by the hon. member for Baroona judge to stand in, as it were, just as replace­ are valid and deserve the explanation he ments can be nominated by the Under Sec­ asks for. But, before arriving at that retary and the Comptroller-General of Prisons point, I say how greatly I share his view when they are unable to attend. that the whole object of probation and parole is the welfare of the person concerned. There is another matter that I should like It is an attempt-up to date it has been to mention and on which I should like some a fairly successful attempt-to give people more information. It concerns the section a second chance, to ensure that, in the headed, "Breach of requirements of probation proper circumstances, they will be given order otherwise than by conviction." To me a chance to rehabilitate themselves and keep it seems a little unfair that a probationer out of trouble in the future. is to be regarded as guilty of an offence, with the consequent possibility of being I pay a particular tribute to the Chief heavily fined or of losing his probation, if Probation Officer and his officers for the he fails to comply with an order "whether very good job they have done. I invite express or implied." Surely the people who hon. members to go along to the pro­ make probation orders are capable of express­ bation office at any time and see how these ing orders in terms that can be clearly under­ problems are dealt with. With my approval, stood by ordinary people. I do not think it fair the Chief Probation Officer spends a con­ to make it an offence to fail to comply with an siderable amount of his time addressing "implied" order. Many of those who get various organisations and giving radio and into trouble that leads them to being placed television talks conveying to the people on probation or parole are not the brightest generally just what parole and probation activities really mean. I believe that that in interpreting written words, and to me it is a very good idea. It has resulted in many seems unfair to make noncompliance with an inquiries from people, particularly those con­ "implied" requirement an offence for which cerned with young offenders, who have penalties are to be imposed. I think that written to me and come to see me to discuss such orders should be expressed in terms that all the angles of parole. That public interest leave no room for doubt, so that the persons must spread and be to the benefit of all concerned have no difficulty in grasping their the people concerned. meaning. I think it would be a little unfair to penalise a person for doing something because Mr. Tucker: You really seek public the one who made the order considered that co-operation to get to the final solution? he implied something else. Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. The more the As you know, Mr. Speaker, we in this public knows about the activities and the House can find reasons to support conflicting more information that is given out, the more arguments on the meanings of words con­ people will talk about it and the more people tained in the Standing Orders and Rules of will ask for further information, and that Practice that have been followed for some is a good bonus coming from it. time. The hon. member for Baroona raised the Members of this House regard as being question of providing the proxy for ex-officio implied many things that are not written into members of the Parole Board. The reason Standing Orders, and it is quite easy for us for this is self-evident and will apply gener­ to differ on the question of what the actual ally when, for one reason or another, an implication is. I do not think it is quite ex-officio member is not able to attend a E2 2546 Offenders Probation and [ASSEMBLY] Parole Act Amendment Bill

meeting of the Board. He can, in writing, Act. I am sure they take as much pleasure nominate a proxy to the meeting. That applies as I do in the successful way that it is to every meeting of the Board. working out. On the particular point that the hon. mem­ Motion (Dr. Delamothe) agreed to. ber raised about excluding a similar provision to provide a judicial proxy for the judicial COMMITIEE chairman, this is a provision in the Act which (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, will allow four members to constitute a Board Greenslopes, in the chair) in the absence of the chairman and it pro­ Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, vides for a specific activity of the Board, agreed to. which is where a matter of ve·ry great Clause 4-Amendments of s. 3; Meaning urgency, to deal with the amendment or of terms- variation or suspension of a parole order, must be dealt with quickly. It is limited to Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.52 p.m.): that particular activity under section 35 of the This clause contains amendments to section Act. 3 of the principal Act, which deals with It arose recently in a particular case where definitions. It includes the definition of the person on parole committed an indictable "Chief Parole Officer." I take this offence and the only course open to the Board opportunity to endorse the Minister's com­ was to cancel .the parole order. The chap ments about the contribution of the officers ~ould have been returned to gaol and, in my of the department who deal with probation VIew, that would have been tantamount to and parole. I am sure those sentiments pre-judging the case before the court hearing. are shared by all hon. members. In other words, it could be implied that, the Parole Board having looked at it and said I reiterate the point stressed by the Leader "Yes, this fellow is guilty", and havin~ and Deputy Leader of the Opposition at cancelled his parole, he would "O back .t~ the introductory stage about the necessity g~ol on his old sentence and c;me up for of providing sufficient staff to enable the tnal_ on. the new charge with an implied required work to be done. I think the pre-Judgmg. In order to avoid such a con­ Minister would agree that these men are tretemps again, this action has been taken. It very hard-working and hard-worked. They may never come up again. On the other hand are dedicated to carrying out their duties it :nay _come up occasionally and speedy in the interests of the people with whom action will be necessary. It will be very rare they are dealing. No doubt each Minister and limited entirely to this narrow section of would want to have more staff in the depart­ the Act. I believe that is quite sufficient. ment under his control, but the Deputy As to the implied requirements which was Leader particularly made the point that the ·other point the hon. member for Baroona more work would be involved with what raised, this relates only to interstate enforce­ is envisaged in the Bill. I hope that this ment. Where, for example, an order is made will be kept in mind by the Minister and in _another State an~ the parolee or pro­ that he will endeavour to provide sufficient bationer comes to this State, the conditions staff to do the work efficiently. of the parole order may not be as explicit as There is another matter that I think the ours and they may have to be read down. Minister might look at, and I do not speak Here again, this will not occur very often but in a critical sense. Recently I had occasion it may, and it will be a matter for the ~ourt to visit a prisoner at the gaol. at the request then to interpret not only what the actual of his fiancee, concerning his possible parole wording of the order means but what is application. While discussing the matter implied. This applies only to interstate with him, I pointed out that. when a prisoner enforcement of orders and I believe it is has served the period of minimum sentence. n<:cessary becaus<: i~ is not our court dealing he can secure the necessary forms for a With our order; It IS our court dealing with parole application, and so on, from the another State's order, or another State's court welfare officer. I am not being critical dealing with our order, and each must be able of the welfare officers or of the Minister's •to be read down in the light of differences staff when I say that not as mueh attention of approach in the various States. as I think is warranted is given to a . Mr. Hanlon: Would there not be an obliga­ prisoner seeking parole. There should be tiOn on the State making the order-- more opportunity for the welfare officer to discuss the whole case with him. At Dr. DELAMOTHE: We cannot tell the the present time it appears that all that Parole Board in another State how it should can be done is for the welfare officer to write its orders any more than it can tell provide the prisoner with a form and tell ours. It is just a safeguard to give the him, "Fill this out and put your signature court power to interpret another State's order. on it." I should imagine that there ought We cannot dictate how to write it but we to be some form of counselling or discussion reserve the right to interpret it. with the prisoner when the application is set in motion. I am not for a moment sug­ I think that covers all the points. Again gesting that the failure to do so stems from I express my pleasure at the very co-operative a lack of desire to do it; I should imagine approach the Opposition have made to the that it is purely the work-load of the welfare Offenders Probation, &c., Bill (26 MARCH] Public Accountants, &c., Bill 2547

officer that does not allow it to be done. PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS But it does leave a bit of a gap. Some REGISTRATION ACTS AMENDMENT prisoners might feel that the application is BILL just more or less a formality. In a difficult case a prisoner might not be able to submit SECOND READING his application as well as it could be sub­ Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Premier) mitted. A little more personal assistance (2.15 p.m.): I move- might be given by the welfare officers, per­ "That the Bill be now read a second haps if they were allowed more time. That time." might well lead to applications from some At the introductory stage, I dealt in great prisoners who might otherwise give it up detail with this Bill and I think it was as a bad job or feel that they were doing generally well received. The Leader of the it only as a formality and thus not presenting Opposition dealt with the various require­ their applications in such a way as to be ments, particularly the entry requirement, and properly assessed by the Parole Board in the I shall deal with those in a moment. light of all the circumstances. I do not know One of the present requirements for entitle­ whether these officers come within the Min­ ment to regi~ration is that the applicant ister's ambit. If they do, I am sure that must be engaged, or about to engage, in the this is a matter he could well look into to practice of public accountancy or be an assist prisoners seeking parole. employee of a public accountant. It is pro­ posed to add that a person who has the Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ actual supervision and management of a Minister for Justice) (12.56 p.m.): I think company which practises as a public account­ both of the hon. member's suggestions are Hnt is also entitled to be registered. This was quite acceptable. He can rest assured that, if previously covered by regulation 23. this throws an extra work-load on1o the staff The amendment proposed to section 17 will of the parole section, it will have to be met give recognition to the diploma in account­ by the appointment of extra officers. Hncy of the Institute of Technology and to the degree of commerce of the University of The suggestion relating to assistance for Queensland, provided that in the latter case prisoners in preparing an application for examinations are taken and passed in the parole is a very good idea. I will look into it prescribed accountancy subjects. Hon. mem­ to see whether it is being done-as it well bers know that the commerce course at the might be. Prisoners have come under my university is a wide one and that it is jurisdiction for only a matter of a few weeks possible to select for a degree subjects that and I have not yet had a chance to familiarise would fit an intended career in politics, in myself with all that is going on. I will cer­ company management, or in the Public Ser­ tainly keep my eyes open for that. vice, but not in accountancy as well. Clause 4, as read, agreed to. Mr. Lloyd: Commerce has not a great deal to do with accountancy. Clauses 5 to 17, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Mr. PIZZEY: It could have. A wide variety of subjects can be taken in commerce. Clause 18-Amendment of s. 22; Chair­ A person may want to concentrate on com­ man- pany management or the Public Service, but Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.57 p.m.): The not accountancy as well, and if he does that; Minister, in mentioning the provisions and does only a few accountancy subjects, whereby the Parole Board can proceed with he would have to do all the others after he a matter of urgency without the judge being has got his degree in commerce if he wanted in attendance, referred to a particular case to be an accountant. Certain subjects are which arose not so long ago, in which a required if he does his accountancy degree person was charged with an offence, and in while he is doing his commerce degree, and which a difficult situation arose. On that if he needs more subjects for accountancy, occasion the trial judge made some pertinent he has to do them afterwards. references to the matter. To my mind that Mr. Lloyd: Is the university still conducting reinforces my argument that a judge should an accountancy course? be present on such occasions because, if an outside judge dealing with the man on Mr. PIZZEY: The university is no longer another charge makes comments about a conducting the A.A.U.Q., the old certificate parole order, that suggests rthere is a necessity in accountancy; the degree in accountancy has for a judge to be present when any alteration replaced it. of the order is contemplated. Mr. Lloyd: How long does that take? Clause 18, as read, agreed to. Mr. PIZZEY: Three years for an account­ Clauses 19 to 37, both inclusive, as read, ancy degree in commerce. These will be agreed to. prescribed in the regulations from time to time. It would not be practicable to put Bill reported, without amendment. them in the Act as subjects and courses change rapidly to keep pace with improve­ [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] ments in accounting and business techniques. 2548 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

The basic needs for the two changes pro­ Mr. PIZZEY: It is more restrictive. posed are the creation of the Institute of Technology and the provision for higher . The third type of entrance to the university educational standards than previously. The Is by way of adult matriculation, which i?stitute is entitled to have statutory recogni­ applies to students 23 years of age or over. tiOn by the board. Recognition of the In this case, passes in four subjects to a degree in commerce became necessary with total. score of not fewer than 16 points are the cessation this year of the accountancy reqUired. The score of 16 points must include cer.tificate C

good, the board might let him begin. The I agree with the hon. member for Rock­ Admissions Committee is reviewing this hampton South that the action of the chair­ matter, and I think it would be advisable to man of the board in writing to the Press and bring it more into line with what is done at pointing out the facts relative to examinations the university and allow it to be done over that will be required for registration purposes the three examinations. was desirable and timely. It would be unfair In addition, there already is provision for to let students think that, after many years of candidates whose qualifications for entrance study, they would get this diploma and be to the Institute of Technology do not fully registered by the board. They would not be meet the requirements mentioned to apply to registered by the board. Their qualifications the Admissions Committee for special con­ do not come up to the standard required for sideration of their case. A number of candi­ registration by the Public Accountants Regis­ dates who have so applied for consideration tration Board. by the committee have been admitted to the Discerning members of the House will have institute's courses. noted that recognition also is given to the The remarks of the hon. member for examinations for the Diploma in Accountancy Rockhampton South were a sound contribu­ of the Department of Education. This is a tion to the debate at the introductory stage carry-over provision and is designed to cater and I thank him particularly for his referenc~ for students of the old Commercial High to the courses being conducted by the Queens­ School who are concluding their studies at land Institute of Technology. I think that the Institute of Technology but will not everyone will agree that the institute is now qualify for the institute's diploma. In cases filling a particularly valuable role in the where the standards of entry and qualifica­ field of tertiary education. It will take some tions required are raised, an attempt usually time before people generally recognise its is made to provide for the man who has value an{! importance and the opportunities it already begun studying and is in the course offers. I think that employers do, but many of proceeding through the old course. In parents and young people are still bewildered some cases these students have to do a con­ about where they should go next and how version course even though they have the they can enter the various professions. Every qualifications. Under the Institute of opportunity should be taken by teachers, Engineers old diploma of engineering, elec­ !5U!da~ce officers and respon~ible public men, trical engineering, or civil engineering, before mcludmg members of Parhament, to point anyone was eligible for acceptance by the out at public gatherings at which education professional body, even though he had the is discussed the advantages and opportunities old diploma, he had to complete a con­ offered by the Institute of Technology. version course that would bring him up to the standard of the new course being applied. . The recognition of the Associate Diploma m Accountancy and the acceptance of its Mr. Lloyd interjected. examinations by the Australian Society of Accountants is a natural result of the standard Mr. PIZZEY: Being an understanding of the institute's course. It really is the course Government, we have always made pro­ now being adopted by that society. V!Slon. Understanding Governments help The hon. member for Rockhampton South people who try to help themselves by working referred also to advertisements in the Press towards professional qualifications. No-one recoll!-mep{ling accountancy training for the would suggest that anybody, after doing two exammat10ns of a body that does not require years of a course, should start over again. matriculation entrance standards. Some hon. No-one would say, "Start over again; we ~11embers will, I am sure, have read that story will not recognise what you have been m the Press some weeks ago. I think doing." We always make provision for Hemingway & Robertson offer some sort of course or diploma in accountancy that has no those who have started on a course that ~ffi~ial recognition by any of the recognised has been replaced. mstltutes. These students are entitled to some recog­ Mr. W. D. Hewitt: It stipulates a Junior nition and they are being catered for by a pass. special diploma. Their numbers are limited and the need for the subsection will dis­ Mr. PIZZEY: It stipulates a Junior pass. appear when they all become registered . .Mr. Lloyd: Plenty of good accountants A change has been made in respect of come out of it. applicants for registration who have passed Mr. PIZZEY: They did a good job in years the examinations of the Australian Society past. of Accountants and the Institute of Char­ tered Accountants. It is proposed to add the . Mr. Lloyd: What makes it so highly tech­ additional requirement that in these cases mcal now? the applicants must also be admitted to Mr. PIZZEY: If the hon. member has been membership of the particular body. It is out of the business for some years, he would considered that the board is entitled to the !lot understand. My discussions with people protection that the particular applicant has m the accountancy field indicate to me that fulfilled all the admission requirements of there is now more to be learnt, as there is in the society or the institute, as the case may other fields. be. 2550 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

I think it would be a good thing, even­ It is proposed to clarify the provisions tually, if we narrowed down the different relating to penalties to give the board categories of opportunity for training in this authority to combine the penalties provided. profession and have only the Institute of For example, a public accountant found Technology examination and the university guilty of discreditable conduct could be examination as the media for entry into the ordered by the board to pay the costs of the profession. inquiry as well as being fined. Also, a Another change proposed is in respect of penalty of $10 a day for continuing offences disciplinary measures against a public is provided for where an accountant does accountant who has been convicted of an not observe an undertaking to abstain from indictable offence which is punishable by some specific conduct. If he was told to imprisonment for 12 months or upwards, or cease advertising in the fashion he was doing, who has been convicted of an act or omission then he would be liable to this continuing which in the opinion of the board renders penalty. him unfit to practise as a public accountant. The board is a responsible authority. The At present, the board has power and Auditor-General is the chairman and the authority (under section 24 of the Act) to Under Treasurer is the deputy chairman. It remove the names of such public account­ contains a representative of the university, ants from the register. The Acts do not give Dr. Gynther, a representative of the the offending accountant the right to be Chartered Institute of Accountants and a heard by the board or to appeal against the representative of the Australian Society of decision of the board. On the other hand, Accountants. the board could not impose a lesser penalty The Acts at present give a public than removal from the register. It is pro­ accountant dealt with under section 25 the posed, in the amending Bill, to correct these right of appeal only from an order of the matters. board suspending his registration or removing I do not think there will be any argument his name from the register. A new subsec­ from hon. members about the right being tion proposes to extend the right of appeal given to a man to appeal if his name is against any decision of the board, includin_g removed from the register, or even if he the imposition of a fine or of costs or is punished for a minor offence. the requirement of the board to abstain Mr. Hanlon: He had that right before, from some specific conduct. but now he has it in respect of any act. The right of appeal is to the Supreme Court. Some might suggest that the Supreme Mr. PIZZEY: Any disciplinary act; pre­ Court is too high a body. However, when viously he had it only in the very limited a man's livelihood is at stake I think he field. is entitled to take his case to the most The position of a public accountant who is senior of the courts. If it is only a matter made bankrupt is the same. If the board of a fine it might be suggested that he was of the opinion that his bankruptcy was should be able to go to a lower court. caused by circumstances that were not but as the Companies Act contains this beyond his control. the board could remove provision it was thought better to keep it the name of 1he accountant from the in line with that Act. register. I suppose there could be cases In relation to the proposed amendment where a person has became bankrupt through to subsection 31 of the Acts, I can only reasons almost beyond his control. For repeat what I said at the introductory stage. example, there could be a civil action against This section at present provides that it shall him for damages over some incident that not be lawful for a firm to carry on the would more than send him bankrupt. There practice of public accountancy in Queens­ may be a case in which a dog rushes out land unless all members of such firm are and hits someone passing on a bicycle, the registered as public accountants. It is found someone being severely damaged; there might that many firms have overseas affiliations and be an award of $15,000 when the owner of the structure may include partners resident the dog would have assets of only $5,000. outside Australia. It is considered unnecessary He would be in real trouble, and I think that such persons should be registered as there should be exceptions to cater for public accountants whilst continuing to reside unusual cases. overseas, and the amendment is designed to eliminate this necessity. It is now proposed to give a public accountant the right to be heard and to Mr. Hanlon: Are there many of those? appeal against the board's decision, and to give the board authority to impose a lesser Mr. PIZZEY: Not too many, but the penalty than removal from the register. It is number is growing. Perhaps I should not also intended to widen the scope of the mention names. board's disciplinary powers to include the Mr. Duggan: It is growing extensively. power to deal with public accountants who have committed an offence against the Public Mr. PIZZEY: Yes. This is in line with Accountants Registration Act. This was not the provisions of the Companies Act and previously included as a routine provision, will apply to approximately 70 registered but it should be. public accountants now resident overseas. Public Accountants Registration [26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2551

I may be able to get the exact number from disadvantage if they were not allowed to the chairman of the Public Accountants advertise their particular qualities and wares Registration Board. once every three years. Subsection 31 (3) (e) of the Acts requires Certain other minor machinery amendments that every advertisement, signboard, label, are proposed, but as they are only machinery invoice or other document used in relation amendments I do not propose to deal with to a place of business shall contain the them unless specific questions are asked about name of the public accountant under whose them. Those are the main points. It is not actual personal supervision and management a very comprehensive Bill. It is really a that place of business is. It has not created Bill bringing the Act into line with modern any difficulty in country areas where pro­ bably the same accountant has been practising developments in the accountancy profession. for years or where perhaps it is a father­ I commend it to hon. members. and-son type of business, and the invoices Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (2.42 p.m.): When and other stationery they require very seldom need to be changed. But today with firms the original Act was introduced in 1947 I in the city that have many branch offices, think there was quite a deal of apprehension changes can take place as frequently as and controversy in some quarters. But every six months. This provision has proved happily, when it was introduced, it was well to be quite impracticable in many cases as received and it has served its purpose quite an overriding condition. With the advent well over the years. of the larger firms into the public accountancy business in this State, the change­ As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out over of persons in charge would impose a at the introductory stage, the winds of change hardship if all of the firms' stationery had have blown strongly in many professions over to be altered every time there was some the years, but I believe no more strongly in change in the staffing. any profession than in the accountancy pro­ fession. It is therefore desirable to modernise The proposed amendment has also been the Act-to bring it up to date-and to take extended to bring companies within the note of the various changes, whether they requirement that every place of business arise from the alterations in the activities of a public accountant shall be carried on of the Australian Society of Accountants or under the supervision and management of the Institute of Chartered Accoumams, or a registered public accountant. This is with the advent of our own Institute of Tech­ already applicable to firms, partnerships and nology in this field. trustee companies. I am very pleased that the Bill is providing It is proposed to amend subsection 38 (1) recognition for the Associate Diploma in by extending the regulation-making power Accountancy of the Queensland Institute of of the Acts to include the regulation and Technology. In these days, when we are control of advertising by public accountants. getting more and more problems in providing At present, advertising by members of the accommodation to cater for students at uni­ Institute of Chartered Accountants and the versity level, it is encouraging to find that Australian Society of Accountants is strictly the Institute of Technology in Queensland limited by the by-laws of the respective is providing a field that cannot be regarded bodies, and it is proposed to extend control as inferior to that available at the university. of advertising to all public accountants. As the Minister said, the hon. member for Rockhampton South dealt with this matter at As I said at the introductory stage, there the introductory stage. In fact, I think he are some public accountants who are not dealt with it to excess when he suggested that members of either the Institute of Chartered the institute was a better proposition than Accountants or the Australian Society of the university. I think that is something of Accountants. It is intended to bring them a challenge to the new Chair of Accountancy all under the same set of by-laws relative established at the university. However, I to advertising. No doubt hon. members may should be pleased if the institute maintained wish to express some views about advertising, its position with the university in this field. but generally an accountant is not selling As the Leader of the Opposition suggested, the goods; he is selling his personal skills and university should not Iag in taking notice of services. I think it ill becomes a professional modern requirements. man-a doctor, for instance-to advertise: "Dr. So-and-so, expert in neat cuts for Mr. Pizzey: This is a matter of opinion. appendicitis." An accountant might advertise Mr. HANLON: As the Premier said, it himself as, "The best accountant in the pre­ is a matter of opinion. I would not say paration of taxation returns". Another might he is dissociating himself from the claims hold himself out as a specialist in a particular made by the hon. member for Rockhampton field and state why he is a specialist, just South concerning the superiority of the as people do in advertising their products, Institute of Technology. Perhaps if the when they tell us why their product is better Premier were still Minister for Education he than any other. We believe that advertising would have sided with the hon. member for by the professions should be restricted or Rockhampton South in this regard. limited. We do not restrict members of Parliament, because there would be a few Mr. Pizzey: Some people prefer the institute, hon. members here who would be at a great and some the university. 2552 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

Mr. Duggan: The institute has smaller has supported quite strongly in both the classes and can give more attention to Federal and State Houses the lowering of individuals. the voting age below 21. It seems to us that if such a relaxation is applied over a wide Mr. HANLON: That could be a factor at field of legislation, age restrictions should not the present time. I read recently that the be retained more or less from habit in other stage has been reached-not necessarily in laws. accountancy-where the institute does not Whilst it is recognised that it is unlikely have much hope of accommodating any that many people would obtain the necessary students who are diverted from the university. qualifications and satisfy the board that they Perhaps because of its recent advent the had acquired the necessary practical exper­ institute is in a better position than the ience before reaching the age of 21, any university relative to overcrowding, an person in that position should not have to unfortunate situation that we experience in wait till he reaches the age of 21 before many fields of educa·tiDn and that will, no being granted registration. I foreshadow that doubt, catch up with the institute. the Opposition will move an amendment at The hon. member for Rockhampton South the Committee stage to delete the minimum­ referred to the more up-to-date approach age requirement. We do not produce it as adopted by the Institute of Technology and a world-shattering amendment, nor do we the emphasis given by it to data processing, argue it bitterly. We put it forward merely and so on. As the Premier said, this depends as a matter of principle. If it is recognised largely on what each individual is seeking to that it is desirable to give responsibility to achieve in his course. I agree with the hon. people at an age younger than the traditional member for Rockhampton South that the 21, we should start to live a bit dangerously institute is doing a very good job in this and apply it on a broad canvas instead of respect. But I do not think it is advisable to merely allowing a little more authority here downgrade .the university and put it second and there. The more that is done, the more to ,the institute. On the other hand, it is anomalies are created. Eventually the mini­ pleasing that we are not downgrading the mum age will be found to be 21 in some institute and that those who pass the associate Acts and 18 in others and, if somebody wants diploma in accountancy examination at the to find an age somewhere between those two institute are acceptable in the profession. for other reasons, there will be even more The ·Premier mentioned a number of distinctions. We feel that there is no necessity clauses in the Bill; some were formal and now for such a restriction. some repeat existing provisions in a different Mr. Aikens: Why mention any age at all? fashion. I am pleased that he is preserving Why not let the qualifying examination be the 1947 transitional rights of people. It the yardstick? would not be correct to suddenly remove those concessions, which were rightly given Mr. HANLON: That is the purpose of the at that time. amendment. All we want to do is to remove the restriction on those under 21. Once a The right of appeal is to be extended. No person is able to satisfy the board that he has matter how the profession feels about it, the the necessary qualifications and has gained right of appeal should be extended to the the necessary experience, it should be possible maximum practical extent so that a person for him to be registered. dealt with in a disciplinary fashion by the board can appeal. An appeal was available Mr. Lloyd: You would not want it to in the most important case, namely, deregis­ extend to boys of 14 or 15 years; they could tration. The extension proposed by the Bill is not possibly have the necessary experience. desirable and I do not think anyone would Mr. HANLON: As the hon. member for question its usefulness in some circumstances. Kedron suggests, it is not expected that the The Bill retains the 21-years-of-age restric­ board will be granting registration to persons tion. Most people would claim that it is of 14 or 15. A student would certainly be a unlikely that many students would, in genius if he had met the requirements of regis­ practice, satisfy the requirements of regis­ tration by that age. What we suggest is remov­ tration before 21 years of age, and it is quite ing the age limit of 21 and relying on the possible that the public may be loath to capacity and good sense of the board in consider practitioners as qualified or mature the registering of applicants if they do not enough to be entrusted with these responsibili­ happen to have reached the age of 21. ties before they are 21 years of age. The hon. There is another matter of drafting that I member for Toowoomba West has often should like to bring to the Minister's atten­ mentioned the lack of consistency in legis­ tion. Clause 3 seems to have omitted the lation where the circumstances are similar. word "or". Clause 3 (c) lists the qualifications As the Leader of the Opposition mentioned by which a person can obtain registration, at the introductory stage, there is presently but they are not separated by the word "or". before the House a Bill to amend the Succes­ It therefore seems that to obtain registration sion Act which is designed to relax the a candidate would have to be just about the restrictions on persons under the age of 21 world's greatest passer of examinations. years in the making of valid wills. Some Although legal draftsmen may consider the years ago the Minister for Justice amended wording of the clause to be the logical way the Real Property Act to allow persons under of setting out what is intended, lay people 21 years of age to hold property. My party could very easily read it in quite a different Public Accountants Registration (26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2553 way. As I read it, it certainly does seem that or operative in this State-the trend appears it can be taken in two ways and that a person to be in that direction, as the hon. member could not be registered until he had passed for Toowoomba West said by interjection­ virtually everything, including all the traffic and if they are exercising quite an important on the Brisbane-South Coast Highway. I influence on the general conduct of the mention that to the Minister. Perhaps he business, one might have some reservations might look into it before the Bill is dealt about reviewing the requirement of registra­ with in the Committee stage. tion in Queensland. On a first reading of the Bill, it appears Superficially, it does seem silly that some­ also that the provision that action be taken one who is a partner in a firm operating by the board where a public accountant has here but who is resident in London. New been convicted in Queensland of an indict­ York, or somewhere else, and is not exercis­ able offence which is punishable by ing any particular influence on the firm imprisonment for 12 months or upwards in Queensland, should have to go through begins at a fairly high level. I ask the the formalities of registering with the board Minister to satisfy hon. members on that in this State just for the sake of requiring point. Other forms of misconduct, or things him to do so. I do not suggest that someone that might be regarded as causing the board should have to go through a formality just to take action, possibly could be dealt with because we want him to do it and without under the existing subsections of section 25 giving him any reason. of the Act relating to discreditable conduct The Minister did not tell us why that pro­ or incapacity. vision was inserted in the Act-why it was It seems to members of the Opposition considered necessary for the original Act that when the board is given power to deal to lay down that requirement. As I say, I with a public accountant who has been con­ >ee no harm in lifting it in practice in many victed in Queensland of an indictable offence respects, but if we get this increasing trend which is punishable by imprisonment for of overseas participation and it enters into 12 months or upwards, someone who is the field of public accountancy, then it is dealt with on a lesser charge might receive possible that with the type of accounts and three months or six months' imprison­ business that may be dealt with under the ment and a person who is dealt with on supervision of these firms-a growing an indictable offence carrying a penalty number of them are apparently based partly of imprisonment for 12 months and upwards outside Australia-they may be exercising may not be sent to prison and may be only policy influence and an influence on lightly chastised by the court. I do not standards of conduct in administrative affairs know the reason for that; it escapes me and the practice of their partnership. They on a quick reading of the Bill. However, the Minister might e.'(p]ain in his reply could be seniors in the partnership although why that particular line is set for the board they are resident outside Australia. In that to deal with a public accountant in those respect we would have some reservations as circumstances. to not requiring them to satisfy the require­ ments of our own Queensland Act, and to Mr. Aikens: You are clear on the point be registered here. If we are requiring our that it is the offence that carries a penalty own people to register, and if these people of 12 months or upwards? An accountant from outside Australia are possibly supervis­ might get off on a bond. ing the policy and administrative conduct of a firm, I think we could logically want to Mr. HANLON: That is true; but I know just what their qualifications are before wondered why it was set at that particular we permit them to do this. level. A person dealt with for a lesser offence might have infringed more seriously, This might be something that the board and his offence might be regarded by the can do in its own way. In the rare instances court in that light. I do not ·say that in which it might think that something there is no good reason for setting the undesirable is taking place, it could take punishment at that level, but at the moment action to deal with the resident partners in I cannot see why it has been worded in Australia and to apply some correction to that way. Again, I could raise that question whatever they found undesirable by taking the at the Committee stage. matter to those resident partners. I have that I turn now to the provision relative to reservation, that is, that if the control of public accountants outside Australia having a firm is vested outside Australia, I think we to register here if they are partners in firms are entitled to the same control over its registered in Australia. The Minrater said that partners who are resident outside this State, there are 70 of them individually; probably if they wish to practise here and to operate the number of firms is lower than that. This firms through local resident accountants, as practise is becoming more common, and I over the partners in this State. do not see that there is any real need to require people who may not, of themselves, Finally, on the question of advertising, as be practising in this State or exercising any the Premier mentioned, this was discussed influence on practice here to register under at the introductory stage by the Leader of the Queensland Act. However, I do not the Opposition, who pointed out that whilst think that such people can have it both it is desirable and whilst nobody would con­ ways. If they wish to be partners in a demn or discourage the accountancy profes­ public accountancy firm that is registered sion from seeking to lift its standards or 2554 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill from regarding itself as a profession-and to be something of a disadvantage for have public regard as such-and whilst promising young accountants who are trying no-one would condemn steps taken to main­ to break into the field. tain professional status and standing in the I realise that the clause seeks only to accountancy profession, I do not think it regulate and control advertising. Without follows-the Leader of the Opposition dealt going to the extent of opposing the clause, with this at the introductory stage-that to we should like to believe that the board maintain standards in the profession any will take a fairly broad view of advertising. group of people in it should necessarily Certainly it should not allow undesirable adopt all the familiar arrangements that advertising but it should allow a deal of apply to other professions. flexibility. Only within the last week we have The Premier, in reply to the Leader of read about an incident on the Stock the Opposition on this matter said, in effect, Exchange concerning advertising. I suggest that just as it would not be desirable for a that the Stock Exchange would be more doctor to say, if someone was having his closely related to the professional account­ appendix taken out, "Get all the appendixes ancy field than the medical profession, which in the family taken out; I will take all four the Minister used as an example today. I am out for the price of one"-along the lines not going to divert onto the incident that of this week's specials-it would not be occurred on the Stock Exchange, or the fine desirable for some forms of advertising to be imposed, but it was something that could entered into by accountants. But I do not be regarded as advertising. Whether that was think there is a true analogy between the the correct background to it or not, I am medical profession and the accountancy pro­ not in a position to express an opinion. I fession in the matter of advertising. use that only as an example. Today more I think the accountancy profession is cer­ and more people are being encouraged to tainly well qualified to regard itself as a pro­ invest in joint stock companies and to take fession and to seek to maintain standards and up shares and debentures. When doing so status in the eyes of the community, but I they rely very heavily on the advice of do not think that this matter of advertising brokers. applies in the same way as in the medical I suggest that we should look at certain profession. Accountancy, by its very nature, of the restrictions that are placed on some is dealing with commerce and business enter­ activities under the impression that we are prise and in many respects, as the Leader of maintaining professional standards. We the Opposition pointed out, more and more could easily be maintaining professional ordinary people are requiring the services of snobbery rather than professional standards an accountant in some form or other much if we do these things to extreme. more today than they were a decade ago, or certainly a generation ago. If we are going The wording of the clause refers to regu­ to let people know just what sort of service lating and controlling advertising. It does they are able to get in this field, then I think not restrict advertising. We have every it requires a certain amount of restrained confidence in the board, but we hope that it and permissible advertising, anyway, to will not institute restrictions that would enable them to make a choice of the preserve the status quo for established firms accountancy firm that they wish to deal and at the same time not give the more with their particular problems. venturesome ones an opportunity to bring their services to the notice of possible Large business concerns are well aware clients. Advertising should not be unduly of the qualifications of the various accounting restricted; it should be allowed as long as it firms. They are well aware of the standards is done in a responsible and professional set by them, and they make their choice manner. accordingly. They do not need to be urged to engage the services of a particular firm. I have no further comments at this stage. They do not have to read advertisements to The Bill is welcomed generally by the Opposi­ try to judge what firm to place their business tion. If the Minister does not have an with, because they are familiar with the opportunity to deal in his reply with the few practice of accountancy in their own estab­ matters I have mentioned, including the one lishment and therefore are qualified to make we will raise by amendment and the query a choice. The ordinary person is not so well I posed about one clause, he will be able informed. to deal with them at the Committee stage. As the Leader of the Opposition mentioned, Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (3.10 p.m.): I agree sometimes this sort of restriction is the with the hon. member for Baroona that the result of a dog-in-the-manger attitude. Bill is to be welcomed. It is just as essential Established practitioners are quite happy to !hat public accountants be registered as it restrict advertising because they already have IS for any other professional element in the word-of-mouth support for their business by community. An argument that could be their clients telling other people about them. adduced is that the reason for this Bill For that reason advertising is not necessary is that the University of Queensland has placed a restrictive entrance exam­ t,0 them, and so they do not permit it ination on students of accountancy. If we within the profession generally. That could turn back the pages of history we see how Public Accountants Registration (26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2555

people originally became accountants in the necessary pass to enable him to matricu­ Queensland and what has happened since late to the university and carry on his then. Since the war there has been a grow­ studies. ing trend to insist on university degree qual­ Mr. Lee: I meant that it was wrong in ifications before accepting a man as competent principle. to engage in the various professions. Mr. LLOYD: His Senior pass in book­ In 1958 chemists were registered, but today keeping and accounts did not qualify him for I think we will all agree that a chemist is entrance to the Institute of Technology to only a glorified retailer. Although it may continue his studies there until he passed be a highly profitable undertaking, his duties in Maths I. Under the present points system, are so much less than they were 20 or to qualify as an accountant, it is necessary 40 years ago when a chemist really had to to pass in Maths I and English. Goodness dispense medicine. However, we now have only knows why a pass in Senior English is registered chemists. We also have registered necessary in a study of accountancy. Nor solicitors, and a university degree is required. do I see what importance science has in an On the literal interpretation of this legisla­ accountancy course. Those are the subjects on which the university insists. tion a university degree in Commerce will be insisted upon before anyone in Queens­ Up till now the board of the Queensland land can be registered as a public accountant. Institute of Chartered Accountants has insisted that, although a person may have My suspicion is aroused by all these things, been through the university course in and I think it is well founded. An examina­ accountancy, he must obtain a university tion of the pink pages of the telephone degree in commerce before he could be directory discloses that 350 accountants and admitted to the Institute of Chartered auditors are listed, and there may be another Secretaries. 1,000 in Brisbane. There are many more Under this legislation a person could thousands in Queensland. Most of them secure registration as a public accountant in may have gone through the old stages of two ways. The Premier left us in a state of education, for which all that was necessary confusion in this regard. I am placing my was a Junior pass at university level and own interpretation on it and the Premier can training and teaching at night school, perhaps correct me if I am wrong. The first method at the local high schools, with progress by which a man can undertake studies to through the course at the Intermediate level enable him to secure registration as a public of accountancy, with bankruptcy law, com­ accountant is to secure sufficient points at pany law and taxation law, and eventual Senior level to qualify him for entrance to qualification as accountant at the Central the Institute of Technology, which at present Technical College. The graduates then is overcrowded almost as badly as the uni­ required a certain number of years in prac­ versity. On being admitted to the institute tice, or had to be engaged for one year he undertakes and passes the examination to in the complete audit of an organisation, secure his diploma. Having secured his at which stage they were admitted to an diploma he is still not entitled to registration accountants' institute. Many of these men as a public accountant. He has to go into are now some of the most highly qualified a public accountant's office and do some accountants in Queensland. I do not know practical work and, at the same time, if he if they are trying to keep other people out can secure the necessary eligibility and of the profession, but in the light of the qualifications under the 16 or 22 point requirement of a university degree and the system, he must undertake a three-year course fact that there is a restriction on entrance at the university and become a Bachelor of to the university and the Institute of Tech­ Commerce. If he cannot secure the necessary nology, I think the Minister has quite a little points he cannot become a Bachelor of to answer. Commerce and therefore cannot secure regis­ As to whether this legislation will restrict tration as a public accountant. the opportunities available to the younger I challenge the Minister to state whether generation to become accountants, I point it is possible for a person, having secured a out that in the past few years we know that Diploma of Accountancy at the Institute of the university has demanded a Senior pass for Technology, and having completed his matriculation purposes for commerce degree. practical experience with a firm of account­ However, a Senior pass in book-keeping and ants, to apply for and obtain registration as accounts from any of the high schools, gram­ a public accountant. mar schools or private schools is not recog­ Mr. Pizzey: Of course he can. nised in the points system of assessment for matriculation purposes, even for commercial Mr. LLOYD: Not under the Bill. purposes. Mr. Pizzey: Of course he can. Mr. Lee: That is wrong. Mr. LLOYD: Not on a literal reading of Mr. LLOYD: It is correct. My son the Bill, which states specifically that he must reached Senior level in book-keeping and have a Bachelor of Commerce degree. The accounts. He was under the impression that Bill has created this confusion, and clarifica­ that was part of his matriculation pass, but tion is called for. Why have this provision he was informed that it did not comprise in the legislation? I inform the Premier that 2556 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

at present, before the Bill is passed, l'l student If the education system of the State were who matriculates to the university and under­ organised in the most effective way, courses takes and successfully completes a Bachelor at high schools could be converted for the of Commerce course and goes to a firm of furtherance of training in accountancy. If public accountants and is trained in account­ the necessary training could be given in ancy, must then undertake an accountancy high schools in accountancy and business course, and then he can become a member methods, instead of wasting time on logic of the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and and economics, for example, which are quite the Institute of Chartered Accountants. On useless for further studies, there would be a literal reading of the bill it is necessary a practical application of the education sys­ for him to t>e a Bachelor of Commerce. I tem. It was recognised 20, 30 and 40 think the Premier should explain this provi­ years ago that the education system should sion more carefully. be adapted to suit the requirements of Mr. Pizzey: That is one way. industry and to educate children to enable them to be readily absorbed in industry. Mr. LLOYD: If he lives at Cloncurry, The insistence upon academic studies another way is for him to secure admission in the high schools has reached a to the Institute of Technology at Townsvi!le. ridiculous stage. There are very few I think there are only four Institutes of facilities in high schools for the teaching Technology in Queensland at present-at of book-keeping and accounts. If the Brisbane, Toowoomba, Rockhampton and profession of accountancy is so important, Townsville. Actually, I do not know why is not the education system organised to meet its requirements? Let anvone go whether there is one yet at Townsville. to anv high school in Queensland today, Mr. Aikens: There is not one there yet. and, if he can find one teacher fully qualified to teach the science of accountancy and Mr. Pizzey: He could go to the Townsville business methods, I shall freely admit that Technical College. I am wrong. However, it will be found Mr. LLOYD: To undertake the exam­ that I am correct. It will be said that ination? there are no teachers of this subject in the schools because students do not want Mr. Pizzey: No, to study. to take it. I say that it is not being taken because of a shortage of teachers who are Mr. LLOYD: Will facilities be available capable of teaching it. Here is a failure at all other high schools in Brisbane and of the education system to recognise a other parts of Queensland and, where there practical science and accept the responsibility is no technical college, will the course for to teach it. the accountancy diploma at the Institute of Technology be available? There are one or two matters relative to the restrictions to be imposed under the Bill Another question I should like to ask is that need clarification. Firstly, is the eligibility this: What qualifications are required for of candidates to submit themselves to entry to the Institute of Technology? Even examinations to enter the profession literally though it may be a correspondence course, a student must qualify by examination at as laid down in the Bill, or is it a question Senior level before being permitted to under­ for interpretation by the board? Can the take it. What qualifications will be required? requirements be emasculated by the board at Will 22 points at the Senior examination be any time? I wish to know, also, whether any needed? person who completes the course for a Diploma of Accountancy at the Institute of Mr. Pizzey: I outlined those qualifications for you. Technology will be acceptable for registration as a public accountant. Mr. LLOYD: The present position could produce a situation similar to that presently Mr. Walsh: Are you suggesting that it being experienced with school-teachers. If should be a discretionary power? restrictions are to be placed on the number Mr. LLOYD: I am not suggesting that it who study accountancy, in 10 years' time there will be a shortage of accountants and should be a discretionary power. I am it will be neces·sary to institute an emergency suggesting that, if it is necessary for these programme to train them, as is at present things to be placed in legislation, they should being done in the case of school-teachers. be placed in legislation in such a way that It is obvious that restrictions are being everybody understands them. Let us not have imposed because of overcrowding at the a long list of qualifications consisting of a university and the Institute of Technology university degree, a diploma from the Institute which has forced the Institute of Chartered of Technology, and so on. That exists Accountants to approach the Government already, and I am trying -to interpret it. In for a revision of the legislation. If the my opinion, the board has power only to overcrowding at the university and the register under the Institute of Chartered Institute of Technology is so severe now. Secretaries, which insists on a degree in why is the legislation being rushed through? commerce. My impression is that, to secure Why not wait till the new university is recognition as a public accountant under the built at Mt. Gravatt? It may not then Bill, one would have to qualify finally as a be necessary to impose such restrictions. Bachelor of Commerce in Queensland. Public Accountants Registration [26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2557

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (3.27 millions of dollars that we are pouring into p.m.): I shall not keep the House very long the university, with all the professors, with the philippic that I propose to launch lecturers, readers, tutors and everybody else, on this Bill. I describe it, without any reserva­ last year we still had over 3,000 students out tion, as just another example of the socially of 15,000 completely fail in their examina­ snob legislation that is frequently passed tions, despite the fact that many posts and through this Chamber. supplementaries-hundreds of them-were This legislation is deliberately designed to given in an attempt to boost the pass rate. boost the academics at .the university. It will Mr. RaiiJBden: What would be the reason not be long before a Bill is introduced-! for that? say this in all seriousness-to register garbage collectors. There will be a chair of garbage Mr. AIKENS: The reason, I think, is collection at the university, with the usual first of all bad organisation at the uni­ professor, two readers, seven lecturers, and versity-too many loafers, too many 24 tutors, all, or most, of whom will, of spongers, too many hangers-on, all getting course, have all the university "perks" and paid for not doing the job they are paid some of them will be entitled to sabbatical to do. leave. We are going university mad, and it is Mr. Ramsden: You would not say that about time we stopped it. We saw an example the standard is too high? of it recently when ·the results of the Senior Mr. AIKENS: No. How is the standard physics examination paper were published. too high? Some of these young people The academics at the university realised that graduate; they go there to learn. But the some of them might have to jus-tify their fact remains that anybody who goes to the position at the university and so pressure was put on the Minister for Education and others university and happens to meet a professor to give all those who sat for physics an extra would be about the luckiest person in the point so ·that additional students would be world. You never see them. I was out at out there at the university, simply to give the the university one day and I met one. He public the idea that the professor, the readers, was coming across the campus and I pulled the lecturers and the tutors were being fully him up and had a talk to him. I said, ''Are employed. I think it is about time we called you going to lunch?" He said, "Which way a halt. It is about time we realised that very was I going when you stopped me?" I said, shortly, if we are not careful, everybody will "You were going this way." He said, "In be over at the university and nobody will be that case, I have had my lunch." doing any useful work. We will have a This is, as I said, typical snob legislation. country of hangers-on and parasites on the Once again we are setting up a board. Of taxpayers' pockets. course, a board was set up under the I point out that we had in this Chamber for original Act and this is purely an amend­ many years one of the best and most com­ ment of the original Act, but it still per­ petent accountants in Queensland, a man who petuates the snob system that was introduced had never passed even the Junior Public by the Labour Party, and supinely followed Examination. When he passed all the examina­ by the Country-Liberal Party, of placing tions for accountancy, it was found tha·t he control of a profession in the hands of that had not originally, back in the dark days, profession. Shortly there will be a garbage passed his Junior, and it was suggested that collectors and manure scraper-uppers' pro­ he should be refused registration as an fession. It will be placed in the hands of accountant in spite of the fact that he had that profession itself and the public-the passed, with considerable merit, all the victims-will be completely fleeced. examinations necessary for him to qualify as an accountant. As a matter of fact, he left As a matter of fact, it would be funny if school when he was in 3rd Grade. Later, it were not so tragic. I know I cannot discuss when he was offered a job in a secretarial a clause, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I would position, the first thing he did was to go and not attempt to strain your tolerance so far, buy the 4th, 5th and 6th Grade school books but the words that make me laugh are, and educate himself from the 3rd Grade "or any member of the public." Can you onwards. imagine what is going to happen if any A man such as that, a man of that calibre member of the public makes a complaint to and will-power, could not possibly become a the secretary of the board about the actions, public accountant in Queensland now, because or lack of actions, of any public accountant? he would have to attend the Institute of Tech­ Do you think for one moment that the nology-! do not agree with the hon. member board will deal with it, when we consider for Kedron; I think he has misread certain the Dental Board, the Medical Board, the portions of the Bill-or he would gravitate Solicitors Board, the Barristers Board, and the naturally to the university. He can get a other boards that control these things and degree there a damned sight easier than he treat the public purely and simply as suckers would through the Institute of Technology, or with bottomless pockets? I always think anywhere else. If we are to rely on gradua­ that for any ordinary member of the public tion at a university, are we going to have the like myself to report one of these professional shocking spectacle that we have every year men to their professional governing body is of a 28 per cent. failure rate? With all the like reporting a thief to the burglars' union. 2558 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

How can one expect them to deal with department. That has been the rule since 1944. members of their own profession for doing Of course, if you are a public accountant in the very things that they themselves do? business and you are fleecing the public, or if And so I again raise my voice in protest you are not in the Railway Department-you can be in any other Government department, on behalf of the enlightened electors of because the rule I mentioned applies only to Townsville South, who have sent me here to the Railway Department-and you are found do this sort of thing. They will then know guilty of any offence at all there are a that when this Bill becomes law, as it number of loop-holes in the Bill to let you undoubtedly will, they will be "on the outer". off the hook. There is one rule for the poor The ordinary public, the ordinary taxpayer, old railwayman and the battler; there is one the ordinary person, is pleaded with and rule for the accountant in the Railway inveigled round about polling time by either Department and another for the accountant the Labour Party or the Country-Liberal in :t,mblic practice. Parties, and that is the only time that any of those parties are interested in the poor One of the principles of the Bill is that old battler, the worker or the businessman any trustee company shall be governed by around the street-election time. Once they the Acts which already cover Queensland get into office they still look to the pro­ Trustees Ltd. and the Union-Fidelity Trustee fessional man as a guide and give him the Co. of Aust. Ltd. I am not going to elaborate on the charges made by the hon. member for right to control his own profession. They South Brisbane the other night, which was fail to give the ordinary voter any redress the first time he has appeared in the House against the criminal activities and unethical since this session started. Probably it will conduct on the part of members of the be the last time he will appear if briefs to professions. You can only report them to appear in court keep coming to him. their own board and you know damn well you will not get anywhere. The hon. member for Burdekin and I produced in this Chamber a document dealing One of the principles of this Bill deals with with the Farenden case in Townsville, in punishment. We know, of course, that the which Queensland Trustees Ltd. blackmailed protected public accountant can be dealt with. an unfortunate woman into agreeing to the He must be convicted of an indictable offence sale of land that was left to her by saying, that carries a penalty of 12 months' imprison­ "If you don't sign this document, if you don't ment or greater. Of course, he may be con­ agree to the sale of this land by private victed of stealing and go to goal for six treaty and you force us to sell it by public months; he can be convicted of manslaughter auction, any difference between the amount with a motor-car, which carries a maximum we receive at public auction and what we sentence of life imprisonment; he can be would have received by this private treaty convicted of dangerous driving causing will come out of your share of the estate". death, which carries a maximum penalty of five years' imprisonment but, of course, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Hooper): before our judges he would get off on a Order! The hon. member is digressing far bond or a $100 fine, and that will be taken too much. into consideration by the board. As far as I am concerned, this is purely and simply Mr. AIKENS: I am always happy, Mr. snob legislation. Deputy Speaker, to have you in control of If you are an accountant in the Railway this Assembly when I am attempting to make Department you do not have to commit an a speech. I do not say this in any derogatory indictable offence at all; you only have to sense to the others who flit in and out like be found guilty of having goods in your feathers dancing down the wind, and attempt possession reasonably suspected of being to browbeat and bully me, some of whom get stolen and you are automatically dismissed­ away with it. At least you try to give me and you can never be re-employed by the a fair deal. department. That was something that was That land, which was sold for £4 an acre, introduced by our unctuous friend from was sold immediateL" afterwards for £75 an Bundaberg, the tyrannical ruler of the Aus­ acre. tralian Labour Party at that time. The same principle was carried on by the Country­ One of the principles of the Bill is that Liberal Government, which has carried on any trustee company that is set up in accord­ many of the sins of omission and commission ance with the Bill shall be along the lines of its Labour predecessors. of Queensland Trustees Ltd. and the Union­ Fidelity Trustee Co. of Australia Ltd. If you are an accountant in the Railway Department and, on the way home, you pick Having made those few considered, up a couple of potatoes or onions that might diffident, sincere and serious remarks-! have fallen out of a wagon (I am not know that I have wasted my oratory on exaggerating, because this happened to a the Premier and members of the Govern­ fellow in Townsville; I will give his name if ment, and that I have always wasted it on necessary) and you are bluffed by the police members of the A.L.P.-at least I am into pleading guilty of being in possession of being true and honest to the people who goods reasonably suspected of having been send me here, and they will read in "Han­ stolen, you are automatically dismissed from sard" that I have said the things they sent the Railway Department and can never again me here to say. As for the rest of the be re-employed in any capacity by that members, they can go jump in the lake. Public Accountants Registration [26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2559

Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Premier) Mr. PIZZEY: Yes, but the hon. member's (3.41 p.m.), in reply: There have been three talking point was on a different basis. His interesting contributions, but only one with talking point was that, because the "or" any substance, namely, that of the hon. was not there, all the qualifications were member for Baroona, who has studied com­ needed for entry. merce and has had virtually a lifetime of experience in that field. He knows exactly It was amazing to hear him decry the what he is talking about. He drew a need for higher professional entry standards contrast between the Institute of Technology and training when he is one of the most and the university. It is true that some ardent critics of this Government for people, certainly many in professions, prefer sometimes not having a high enough standard those who do the practical work in the day­ for teachers in the Department of Education. time and study as part-time students at He would be the last person to suggest that night. I know that many engineering com­ we should use the Junior standard for mem­ panies like a diplomate of engineering who bership of the teaching profession. has worked in the day-time and done his The Department of Education course and diploma at night. For some research job the Society of Accountants course will dis­ in the company they may prefer a graduate. appear. Many people working in accountants' There are differing fields of responsibility offices are part way through the Society of and work. It is possible to take these Accountants' course and will be allowed until courses in some of the technical colleges. 1971 to complete their courses. After that I cannot state exactly which ones but I am the Society of Accountants will accept the certain that in Bundaberg, Maryborough and Mackay, many of these courses can be Institute of Technology course in lieu of its taken if a local lecturer can be found to own. But it is still possible to enter the take the various subjects. accountancy profession away from the institute and away from the university by I will deal later with the subject of studying at home and doing the Chartered those under 21 years of age because the Institute of Accountants' examination. Those hon. member has foreshadowed an amend­ examinations are held regularly and scores ment. By and large his contributions were of young men and women sit for them. That reasonable. institute now requires a Senior level standard The hon. member for Kedron put up of entry. all the Aunt Sallies in the world and The hon. member for Townsville South knocked them down himself. His contribu­ exploded as usual in his criticism of the tion consisted of much ado about nothing. university, the courses provided there and His complaint was that book-keeping was the student staff ratio, and, most amusing of not a Senior subject recognised for someone all, the Public Accountants Registration wanting to enter the faculty of commerce. Board, which examines complaints lodged That is entirely wrong. He should have against accountants. Last week he said that done a little research. Book-keeping and the only member competent to talk about accounts at the pass level is accepted as inebriates was a member of the inebriates a pass for matriculation in commerce as old boys' association and that we would know one would expect it to be. nothing about them. The hon. member then used 10 minutes of our time in saying that because Mr. Aikens: I was talking about general there was no "or" between the various alter­ knowledge, not a board. natives for qualification in accountancy the Mr. PIZZEY: The hon. member today lot were required because, he said. it says, spoke about complaints lodged with the "He shall first be a graduate of the University board. He levelled his usual accusation that, of Queensland, secondly, have a diploma from the Institute of Technology and, third. if a humble citizen made application for the if qualified under the old Department of hearing of a complaint, nothing would be Education, so-and-so and so-and-so." The done about it. That cast a reflection on the hon. member did not realise that, in drafting. members of the board, for instance, the if there is an "or" between the last two Auditor-General and the Under Treasurer. items, it applies to all the items in the The Bill provides that the secretary may lay sentence. I think that that is about the a complaint. A member of the public who only reasonable contribution the hon. mem­ wants to remain anonymous can lodge a ber for Townsville South made in that he complaint with the secretary, who will initiate agreed that that was the right interpretation an investigation of the complaint and take of that section of the qualifications. I the appropriate action if the complaint is understand that some draftsmen in some substantiated. States use the "or" between the items, The only mistake the hon. member made which may make it clearer for the general was in thinking that by reading the Bill he public. had read the Act. This proposal dealing with Mr. Walsb: In other words, you say the punishment will form only part of the sec­ board has considerable discretion. tion. He should do as the hon. member for Baroona does, namely, compare the Bill Mr. PIZZEY: It is a matter of drafting. with the Act and in that way discover how Mr. Walsh: It is a talking point if nothing the section will read after the Bill is passed. else. I suggest he go to the Parliamentary Library 2560 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

and read the proposal in conjunction with The Minister outlined in his reply, par­ section 25. In that way he will find the ticularly to the hon. member for Kedron, the answer to his queries. manner in which clause 3 has been drafted, I am pleased that the Bill was generally and its particular legal interpretation. I well received by the House. listened carefully to the hon. member for Kedron, and at all times he emphasised the Motion (Mr. Pizzey) agreed to. literal and not the legal interpretation. That was the reason for my interjecting that it was COMMITTEE a talking point, and that is still .my conten­ (Mr. Rae, Gregory, in the chair) tion. The ordinary member in this Chamber. Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. is not particularly well versed in the legal terms that may be applied in regard to this Clause 3-Amendments of s. 17; Qualifica­ matter. I felt that (a) and (b) of this clause tions for registration as a public accountant- did allow discretionary power to register a Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (3.50 p.m.): I person who had not attended the university, have an amendment to move to this clause. or had sat for the vcarious examinations set Before moving it, I should like to thank the out in (c). Nevertheless, I think that the hon. Minister for his explanation that the semi­ member for Kedron extracted something from colon satisfies the omission of the word ''or". the Minister that probably the Minister him­ I spoke to the Parliamentary Draftsman after self did not know. I raised this matter-! had no opportunity to I am very interested in the various headings do so before-and he mentioned that this in subclause (c). A considerable number of wording has been backed up by a decision of certificates, examinations, and so on, are set the Supreme Court. That seems to prove that out there under which a candidate might be the matter was at least worth raising. expected to qualify. It is all very well to Mr. Pizzey: We learn something every day. lay down the standard. There are students who wish to undertake a university course Mr. HANLON: Obviously we have learnt and obtain a degree in one of many subjects. something from that. I suggest, with all due But what about the thousands of young respect, that, from the point of view of the men, and young women, if I may say so, public, the addition of those words might who cannot afford to go to the unh ersity and make the position clearer to ordinary, lay undertake the course? How are they going people. However, the Minister and the to get on? Parliamentary Draftsman have assured me that, in the eyes of the law and the court, the Mr. Pizzey: They don't have (O. There wording is quite satisfactory as it stands. are correspondence courses. I now move the following amendment­ Mr. WALSH: I wanted the Minister to "On page 2, line 7, omit the words- say that very thing. ' and is of or above the age of twenty­ Mr. Pizzey: Are you talking about the one years'." university? As members know, the present provision for Mr. WALSH: Yes, I am talking about the registration is that a person be of good fame university, and I am talking about people in and character and of or above the age of my own electorate who wanted to do the 21 years. The purpose of the amendment is external course and who were not given to delete the words, "and is of or above the consideration because there were not age of twenty-one years." It is not expected sufficient students for this particular type that there will be many who will qualify by examination, and satisfy the board that they of examination in Bundaberg. I ask the have had the necessary practical experience, Minister to tell me how those people are before reaching the age of 21 years. How­ going to get on. ever, if there are some who do, we think they Mr. Aikens: They can shift to Brisbane. should not have to twiddle ·their thumbs for That is what the Government wants­ six months or so because they happen to be everybody in Brisbane. under 21. We move the amendment on the basis of consistency with what we are doing Mr. WALSH: The Minister can make his in other Acts. own investigations. If I undertake to investi­ gate a case personally and do the necessary Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.53 p.m.): First telephoning myself, I do not want anybody of all, let me say that I shall be surprised if else to tell me what the answers are. the Minister does· not accept the amendment moved by the hon. member for Baroona, par­ Mr. Pizzey: Are you talking about the ticularly in the light of the publicity given university, or about the Institute of Tech­ in recent times to youth having to accept nology? responsibility. It will not be applied on very Mr. W ALSH: I am talking about the many occasions. However, it is realised that young man in Bundaberg who wants to brilliant students who pass the Junior and pursue an external course in accountancy. Senior examinations at very early ages might He cannot undertake that course because­ show much more ability to enter the pro­ fession of accountancy than do many others or so it is said-there are not enough who have passed through ·the university or students in Bundaberg to qualify them as obtained similar qualifications at various external students. examinations. However, that is by the way. Mr. Lloyd: It may be only one. Public Accountants Registration [26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2561

Mr. WALSH: A limit of five or 10 may be boy at the Townsville City Council. Now, imposed. I know that the hon. member will I understand that the council has to go take my word for that. I investigated this out and canvass for employees, but that, case; that is why I know about it. of course, would still be a remnant of the T.C.A. administration. From time to time one hears and reads The boy who won the first examination statements by many so-called professors was particularly bright and we gave him who want everybody, from all over Queens­ the job. He was not there very long when land, to become full-time students at the the Second World War broke out and many university. This State does not lend itself of our staff went to it. As a result, before to that, and the financial and economic he was 18 years of age, because of his position of families does not allow for it, outstanding ability and mental accomplish­ either, because of the distances and other ments, he was at least a good enough things that are involved. The Minister knows accountant for us to appoint him as acting thousands and thousands of cases, even in accountant of the Townsville City Council. the field of education, where people have Whether he had completed all his account­ eventually qualified through external courses. ancy examinations at that time I have for­ Therefore, if a limit of two or five is gotten, but he carried out the job of account­ imposed-whatever the limit may be-it is ant of the Townsville City Council through­ not good enough. If there is a boy or girl out the war. Later he became accountant outside the metropolitan area of Brisbane, of the Townsville City Council. He was then or outside the Townsville region, who wants transferred to the Townsville Regional Elec­ to undertake an external course instead of tricity Board and from there he went to attending the university, he or she should another big institution in Townsville. As I be given that opportunity. I ask the Minister say, that boy was brilliant. Whether he to have a look at that question himself on was fully qualified at 18 years of age, I some occasion. do not know. I have forgotten. but I could find out if anyone is interested. However, Mr. Pizzey: I am not clear about what he actually was the accountant of the Towns­ you want. Do you want an external course, ville City Council at 18 years of age. The or a night class for one person? hon. member for Mirani will know him well. Mr. W ALSH: Never mind about the night According to this clause, without the class. If someone engaged in employment amendment, such a boy, even if he had passed wishes to take the external course direct from all his qualifying examinations, even if he the university, he should have the opportunity had all the university degrees that could be of qualifying for one of the degrees that are hung upon him, still would not be able to set out. That applies in any one of the practise as a public accountant until he degrees that are set out. Dr. Goodman, reached the magical age of 21 years. I have or one of the other experts. will probably always thought that was wrong. say that all these things are provided for, Mr. Pizzey: He could work in an account­ but if a member of this Parliament, handling ant's office. individual cases, finds that that is not so, this is the proper place to outline the posi­ Mr. AIKENS: Could he be registered under tion. As we just gathered from the Premier's this Act? explanation we all learn something from Mr. Pizzey: No. this. But if a parent comes to see me in Bundaberg and tells me that his boy cannot Mr. AIKENS: Why not? be enrolled because there are not sufficient Mr. Pizzey: Because he is not 21. numbers in Bundaberg to be enrolled as external students of the university, I do Mr. AIKENS: What is so magical about not think that is good enough. I should the age of 21? If we are going to adopt a like tbe Premier to examine the point, and chronological approach in tbese matters if it affects that position in any way I think instead of an approach of ability and quali­ the university should be asked to correct it. fication, then I think it is a very poor out­ look. I do not know whether tbe Premier Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (4.1 p.m.): is old enough. We know, of course, tbat he I support the amendment moved by the hon. is approaching the age known as the "sere member for Baroona because I have a par­ and the yellow", but around about 1909 and ticular case in mind. I will not mention 1910, when there was a great insurgence into the person's name. He occupies a very the Railway Department, many young boys responsible position in one of our big semi­ passed the driver's examination at 17 and governmental authorities in Townsville. 18 years of age. They were actually When I was a member of the Townsville employed as drivers at that age. Some of City Council we decided to tbrow overboard them were classified at 21 and 22 years of the old personal-selection method of appoint­ age because the Railway Department then, ing boys and girls to the Townsville City quite rightly, based its promotion and allo­ Council staff and, much against the wishes cation of work not on any chronological of some old diehards, were able to bring basis, not on the magical age of 21, but in a system of examinations for appoint­ on the fact that they were experienced by ment. In those days about 150 used to sit the work they had done and were qualified for the examination for the position of office by the examinations they had passed. 2562 Public Accounta/1!s Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

The Premier has a most infectious grin, and Of the 112 people registered this financial he was grinning quite widely when he said year the youngest was 24, and the age that a person could not become registered groupings were as follows:- as an accountant under this Bill until he Ages 21 to 23 Nil was 21 years of age. Only the other day legislation was introduced to give boys aged Ages 24 to 29 19 18 years the right to make a will. On an Ages 30 to 39 36 earlier occasion legislation was introduced, Ages 40 to 49 32 quite rightly, to give boys and girls who are Ages 50 to 59 14 !8 years of age the right to own property. Ages 60 to 69 9 It will not be very long before it will be an Ages 70 to 75 2 established fact that 18 years is the age of adulthood. We will still have this Bill on That indicates the ages of people who are the Statute Book to prevent brilliant boys, registered as public accountants and who can with all their examinations and university assume the full responsibility of public degrees, from becoming registered as public accounting. To say that a person cannot accountants because they have not reached become registered as a public accountant the magical age of 21 years. I am astounded until he is 21 years of age does not mean to at the narrow-minded attitude of the Premier say that he cannot practise as an accountant on this matter. I have always found him to in a public accountant's office. He can work be a very broad-minded and tolerant man, under supervision in a public accountant's but on this occasion he appears to have gone office after he has completed his examina­ back into a mid-Victorian shell. tions. Under norm at circumstances, 17 t to 18t years is the age of matriculation. With An Opposition Member: He has been a three-year course at the university or the badly advised. Institute of Technology there would be Mr. AIKENS: He has been very badly very few people, if ~ny, who would advised. have had much expenence under the age of 21 years. They would simply Mr. Hanson: Their counterparts are fight­ have qualified academically within a ing in Vietnam. few months of being 21 years of age. If they were doing the six-year course part­ Mr. AIKENS: That is so. They can enlist time they would not qualify until they were for the war at any age. Some of them enlist 23 or 24 years of age. Surely the hon. in the Navy at 14 or 15. I could talk about member is not suggesting that when a man the time when the hon. member for Gregory has merely passed the examination, or that and I were going to the Hungerford High immediately he qualifies, he should be able School, but I will not mention that. to practise as a public accountant without I am astounded at the attitude of the having some experience, working under super­ Premier. I leave the matter between him vision in an accountant's or an auditor's and his conscience. I do not know whether office. the Government can change it or not. How The duties of a public accountant can can the Government justify giving a boy involve the control or audit of advanced or girl 18 years of age the right to make books of account, the reorganisation of a will and own property, and then deny him systems, the advising of clients on intricate or her the right to become registered under matters of finance such as investment, the this measure despite the fact that he or she raising of finance for expansion, and many has passed all the examinations and holds other things. In the public interest I feel all the necessary degrees? that he should at least have some experience before he is allowed to become a public Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Premier) accountant. With that end in view, it is (4.8 p.m.): Let us get clear the difference not intended to accept the amendment. between a public accountant and a person who is actually an accountant doing work Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the in an accountant's office, employed on Opposition) (4.11 p.m.): I think that anyone accountancy work but doing so under super­ who listened to the Premier must agree that vision. A person can be work;ng under he has supported our case in saying that supervision in an accountant's office at 17, in the years gone by only one man under 18, 19 or 20 years of age, but he is in a 21 years of age has qualified. This is the totally different position to the public point: if the age limit is removed it will not accountant who can hold himself up to the affect a great number of people who qualify. general public not only as fully qualified but having the age limitation has prevented but as experienced in his profession. A one person from qualifying. If a person public accountant not only has to be quali­ is qualified, who can say that any number of years' experience will make him any fied; he has to be experienced or at least better or worse? We are not interfering have had some experience. Therefore, we with the clause, which says- feel that it is not wise to reduce the age below 21 years. There has been only one "and in every such case has acquired such known case in the history of the board in practical experience as the Board deems which the applicant had to wait until he sufficient in accountancy work;" was 2 I years of age before being registered. That contains the protection. Public Accountants Registration [26 MARCH) Acts Amendment Bill 2563

I do not suggest that the board should that the Premier, by way of interjection, grant the final qualification of registration said that 70 people might be involved in this to anyone who had not had the necessary matter. I have just spent some time in the experience. Whether the age limit is in Parliamentary Library trying to check up on the legislation or not is obviously irrelevant. the authorities I have read on this subject. Our argument is that we have reduced the Unfortunately, owing to lack of time, I was age limit in very many matters. We have not able to find them. I was, however, able said that persons at 18 can do virtually to find some generalisation on the point anything except drink legally. They can go that I wanted to make and that the hon. to war; they can make wills and they can member for Baroona made strongly, namely, own land. One of the Ministers has said that there is to be an exemption from the that we have accepted the suggestion that obligation of registering as public account­ time will tell when it will be common practice ants in this country of a large number of for 18, and not 21, to be considered as the age of majority. With all this rationalisation people-and the number is likely to grow­ we are still to retain in our legislation a who wish to operate in Australia as public provision that could have applied to only accountants but do not elect to live here. one person over many years. However, I think it is perhaps timely to point out that would be held against that person. as that under this Bill we have another example obviously it was. of the extent of the penetration in this country of overseas capital in many spheres I have checked the annual reports from of economic and financial development. the university, and occasionally a student does pass the Senior at 15 years of age. The first reference I have is a book Such a person could qualify under this Bill, entitled "American Investment in Australian and have the necessary experience, and still Industry", by Brm;h. It was published in be under 21. He could receive his diploma 1966. It contains only one or two brief at 20 years of age, with a couple of years' references to this matter. It points out that experience. Could he not be more qualified in 1963-the tempo of this type of develop­ than a person who has only the minimum ment has certainly increased rapidly and experience-perhaps he is duller-and has markedly in the last five years-it was esti­ taken longer to qualify, but is over 21 years mated that the eight largest American of age? I do not think age enters into accounting firms had some kind of partner­ this argument. So far as ability and qualifi­ ship arrangement with their counterparts in cations are concerned, it certainly does not. Australia. That indicates that eight of the We must look at this matter in the light of a person being 20t years of age, not largest companies have seen fit to come to being permitted to register, with all the Australia in some form or another, not only qualifications, and another at 21 years of relative to the control of important manu­ age being permitted to register. facturing elements in our community but also relative to the professional side. We are not suggesting that there should be a lowering of the qualifications required. Mr. Pizzey: The brain-drain running in We are only asking that we be consistent reverse? with the trend in legislation throughout Australia and the world. We are asking Mr. DUGGAN: Not necessarily so. What the Premier to cut out a meaningless set the Premier proposes will not operate in the of words because, on his argument, that direction he suggests. If the legislation is what they amount to in fact. compelled these people to come and reside The Premier has indicated that he will not here so that they can practise, then his accept the amendment. I am sure that within remarks would be pertinent, because in that a short space of time we will have other case it would involve the physical transfer pieces of legislation reducing the age limit. to Australia of people with these qualifica­ How can the Premier or any other Minister tions to serve the business requirements of argue that we can reduce the age relative the Australian economy. But if they are to so many matters and that a man of 20 being exempted, as the Premier proposes, years and eight months is not fit to be there will be less need for them to come registered as an accountant when he will here because they can use their Australian be in four months' time? employees or partners with professional Amendment (Mr. Hanlon) negatived. qualifications to earn profits for them Clause 3, as read, agreed to. and then remit those profits back to the United States, the United Kingdom, or Clauses 4 to 7, both inclusive, as read, whatever countries these firms are domiciled agreed to. in at present, and that is undesirable. Clause 8-Amendments of s. 31 (3); Penalty- I am sure that the Premier agrees with many of the major policy pronouncements Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West) (4.16 of his Federal leader, Mr. McEwen, who p.m.): I was very interested to hear the has pointed out, and I agree most whole­ remarks of the hon. member for Baroona in heartedly, that there is a case for the injec­ his second-reading speech. He said that the tion of foreign skills and capital into certain Opposition would be prepared to have a look types of development in Australia, but at the implications of this proposal. I think that it should be confined to certain 2564 Public Accountants Registration [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

restricted types of operation. He men­ to Australia from a country with which there tioned mining as one such activity. However, is no reciprocal agreement, he is required to when it comes to the employment of pro­ pass the prescribed examinations at a fessional people, it seems to me that it university. Similar provisions apply to would be illogical and foolish to permit veterinarians and dentists. I can see no absentee professional people to use local difference in principle between the use of material in the form of brain-power to earn local skills to earn profits for foreign com­ profits that are to be remitted outside the panies and the use of foreign money by way country. There has been quite a penetration of debenture stock to obtain equity stock of many leading architectural firms by in large undertakings. English firms, in particular, and this trend is I hope that the Premier will consider this undesirable. matter. I do not know what submissions Another book-'The Highest Bidder", by were made to him by his advisers who recom­ Brian Fitzpatrick and E. L. Wheelwright, mended this step. I quite appreciate that there which was published a little while ago­ are administrative difficulties associated with indicates fairly strongly the trend to which I a firm, one partner of which is not resident wish to draw attention. The authors say- in this country, and I readily concede that it "Another important constant influence on is not desirable to have matters so tied up the mass of Australians is commercial with red tape that it becomes a deterrent to advertising--conducted by advertising those who wish to establish their businesses agencies through newspapers and here. However, I do not think that organisa­ periodicals, as well as through radio and tions with Australian representation only and television. The advertising 'industry' in controlled wholely and solely by overseas Australia, like the content of sound radio interests represent the type of investment that and television programmes, is strongly should be encouraged. un-Australian. The Financial Review, On the question of balance of payments, 17 .11.64, pointed out that after a recent Wheelwright and Brash observe that ancillary takeover, five of the six top Australian operations represent quite a considerable sum. agencies were now 'linked with foreign In the advertising field, five out of six agencies operations'." is a very high percentage. There is penetration in other professional fields, and I I do not propose to incorporate in "Hansard" think it is an indication of a general trend the names of the firms, but ·they are all men­ in this direction. tioned here and they are leading Australian organisations. I am not opposing the clause merely for the sake of opposing it. I have not had time The authors continue in the footnote on to examine its full implications or to find out the following page- exactly which companies have been taken "The same kind of ·thing is happening in over by American, British or other overseas the field of accounting; the overseas parent accountancy firms. However, I do know is used to having its accounts conducted in from my general reading that this process is a certain way, and naturally prefers its going on gradually, and I think it ought to subsidiaries to conform to this pattern. be resisted. It is a type of service that The simplest way of achieving this is for Australian-trained personnel can provide overseas accounting firms to take over, or adequately. Country Party policy is that we at least 'penetrate', Australian accounting should sell some of the products of the farm firms. This has already happened to a con­ to people overseas but that we should not siderable extent, but we do not discuss it sell the farm to them. I do not think that here because it is of doubtful relevance to the accountant should be put in bondage to cultural or social effects; it is, however, a overseas firms. The profit that he is earning good example of how wide ·the ramifica­ as a result of his professional skill should not tions of overseas investments can become be remitted, in some instances unnecessarily, as there is a spreading out from the points outside Australia. of origin into various ancillary activities." In line with the views that I have con­ I think that they are pertinent observations sistently expressed in Parliament and on the on a trend that should be watched. public platform outside this Chamber, I believe that there is a very strong case for the I do not agree that non-resident pro­ injection of foreign capital and know-how to fessional men should be encouraged to use assist the development of the Australian facilities in Australia for the purpose of economy at an accelerated rate. On the other using trained Australian personnel to carry hand, I think that such development should out auditing and accounting merely because be encouraged by using professional skills overseas companies own, or have a con­ that can be acquired at Australian universities trolling interest in, large business under­ and Australian institutes of technology, or by takings. home studies or by other means by which I think that this situation should be people can gain professional qualifications. examined closely now, and one effective way My remarks in this debate are more in the to meet it would be to leave the law as it is. nature of a warning and an appeal to the Let it be provided that if a person wants to Premier to keep a close watch on other pro­ operate a practice here, he must be resid­ visions and ensure that this State does not ent here and either hold qualification accepted come within the grlp of overseas interests to by reciprocal arrangement or sit for the a greater extent than is justified in the devel­ Australian examinations. If a doctor comes opment of a sound economy in Australia. Audit Acts [26 MARCH) Amendment Bill 2565

Hon. 1. C. A. PIZZEY (lsis-Premier) It is also proposed to bring Queensland (4.27 p.m.): The observations of the hon. into line with other States and the Common­ member for Toowoomba West were very wealth by g1vmg the Auditor-General interesting; but I do not think they are authority at his discretion to dispense with relevant to the issue at present before the all or any part of the detailed audit in Committee. It is simply this: whether or respect of any accounts or stores. not all members of an overseas firm should be compelled to register as public accountants In many departments and other bodies the in Queensland, or whether the one who is systems of internal check and internal audit actually practising here should be the one do not warrant a detailed check of every to register. Some overseas firms of account­ item by the external auditor as is presumably ants have branches in many other countries. required under the Acts. The decision will For example, an American firm may have be a matter for the Auditor-General on the one branch in Argentina, another in South advice of his officers and is in accordance with Africa, and another in Nigeria. Because they modern auditing techniques. are all members of that firm, wherever its branches may be, should they have to become I think this is an appropriate time to pay registered in Queensland as public account­ tribute to the framers of our legislation almost ants? That is all that is involved in this 100 years ago. This is the Audit Act of clause. 1874 and it has not had many amendments The other points to which the hon. mem­ since-in 1890 and 1926--so they framed ber referred were matters of policy, not as pretty well when the Audit Act still serves to whether people should be registered by the this State, as it has done for almost a century, Public Accountants Registration Board. without many changes. However, it is appropriate that we should look at it at Clause 8, as read, agreed to. some time in the future in order to bring Clauses 9 and 10, as read, agreed to. down a modern Audit Act. However, this Bill reported, without amendment. Act has served exceedingly well for almost a century and I suggest that the House accept these few changes. AUDIT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL SECOND READING Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4.32 p.m.): As the Premier has pointed out, these provisions Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Premier) are to replace a section that was deleted (4.29 p.m.): I move- in 1951 as being out of date but for which "That the Bill be now read a second no new section was substituted. Since the time." amendment is to provide specific authority The Bill is a very simple one and is designed for the Auditor-General to do certain things to bring the Audit Acts up to date. The which he already does in practice, I do not practice of the Auditor-General has been think we would have any opposition to the established over the years, and it is necessary Bill as it has been introduced. to act in this way in order to move with the times. It is intended merely to give the In the Premier's remarks at the introductory Auditor-General, or officers of his staff, the stage he referred to the advent of automatic necessary authority to audit the accounts and data processing systems into Government records of all officers in charge of stores or accounting, so that a detailed system of other property under the control of the State auditing is no longer necessary. He said and to satisfy himself that they have been that the highest degree of co-operation exists properly accounted for. between the various departments operating The provision. will apply also to all cor­ automatic data processing units and the porations or 1nstrumentalities the accounts of Auditor-General's Department to ensure that which are required to be audited by the audit requirements are met, and he mentioned Auditor-General. This power and authority that under these systems it is possible to does not exist in the Acts at present. create inbuilt controls which, together with internal check, relieve much of the necessity It is also proposed to vary the requirement of a detailed audit check of each item. I am that accounting offices in Brisbane shall be sure this must be a relief to the Auditor­ visited and accounts audited once at least General and to those who have had to do in every three months, and the many offices somewhat tedious detailed checks in the elsewhere in the State not less frequently past. However, I could not help but think than once in every six months. of some of the things we have read about The proposed amendment provides that the in the United States, where these automatic Auditor-General or officers of his staff shall data processing systems operate. We read visit and inspect the Treasury and the various recently that the Army Department in that public accounting offices in Brisbane and country had been buying bottled sea water throughout the State as often in each year or something because they relied too heavily as circumstances permit to carry out the audit on these units for their accounting checks. in such offices. This is in accordance with I do not know whether we are as safe as the present practice whereby the larger Bris­ we think in that respect. but I have sufficient bane audits .are carried out progressively and confidence in the Auditor-General and his offices outside Brisbane are audited once a staff to believe that his supervision in this year unless circumstances demand additional regard will be strict enough to ensure that visits. he does not rely completely on these machines 2566 Insurance Acts Amend. Bill [ASSEMBLY] Motor Vehicles Insurance, etc, Bill

to do his auditing. Therefore, there should of work and investigation carried out by not be any reason for anything to go wrong the all-party committee of 1961 during the in the realm of auditing under this measure. time when the former Treasurer, now Sir Motion (Mr. Pizzey) agreed to. Thomas Hiley, was administering the Act. That committee carried out considerable COMMITTEE research into this problem. I noticed that the Treasurer said in his reply to the Leader (Mr. Rae, Gregory, in the chair) of the Opposition that this matter will not Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, be allowed to drift along. I am sure everyone agreed to. is concerned about the growing burden of Bill reported, without amendment. premiums, especially if there are successive increases as time passes. I am pleased that the Treasurer has moved INSURANCE ACT AMENDMENT BILL to indemnify the driver of a vehicle. I, SECOND READING among others, raised this matter some little time ago and I was grateful to the Treasurer Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ for the advice he furnished to me in writing Treasurer) (4.35 p.m.): I move- as to the actions he intended to take to "That the Bill be now read a second correct this deficiency, which has concerned time." people for some time. I am also pleased to At the introductory stage I outlined fairly note that by some broad legislation to be fully the new principles contained in the introduced by the Minister for Justice it is Bill. Consequently, I feel there is very intended to correct a long-standing injustice little I need add at this juncture unless in spouse v. spouse claims. hon. members opposite, now that they have Mr. Chalk: That will come during this seen the Bill, have any points they care session. to raise. Mr. HANLON: I note that in this Bill the Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the Treasurer is not making any provision for Opposition) (4.36 p.m.): I think the main retrospectivity, but I suggest that in the argument will take place on the Motor legislation introduced by his colleague deal­ Vehicles Insurance Acts Amendment Bill. ing with spouse v. spouse claims some This Bill is a general insurance Bill con­ taining only minor details. What I said at consideration should be given to retrospec­ the introductory stage still stands. tivity. I think that point has been generally stressed by the hon. members for Windsor Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. and South Brisbane, and by numerous other members who have raised the maUer over CoMMITTEE the years, including me. (Mr. Rae, Gregory, in the chair) It was always said by the Treasurer's Clauses 1 to 8, both inclusive. and predecessor, and more recently by himself, schedule, as read, agreed to. that it was the Government's desire to create Bill reported, without amendment. a better situation. Whilst I am not pressing retrospectivity in this instance, I think that in spouse v. spouse claims some retro­ MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE ACTS spectivity is warranted because there is a AMENDMENT BILL limitation on claims of three years. It SECOND READING would go back for a reasonable time, not for ever and ever. This would give recog­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ nition to the fact that the Legislature, and Treasurer) (4.38 p.m.): I move- the Government for that matter, are desirous "That the Bill be now read a second of correcting this anomoly as soon as possible. time." It would go some way towards meeting the In introducing the Motor Vehicles Insurance genuine grouch of people who are ;;tfected Acts Amendment Bill, I pointed out the by the deficiencies in the Act. main principles that were incorporated in it. I did not know that this legislation was I dealt at some length with the provisions coming on so soon. I had some discussions that the Bill proposed to introduce, and with the Parliamentary Draftsmen this therefore I feel that there is little more morning about the necessity of covering a to add at this stage. matter that I propose to bring forward today. Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (4.39 p.m.): I The Treasurer said that we are changing regret that I was not present when the the Act to indemnify the driver rather Minister introduced the Bill, but I heartily than the vehicle-owner. He went to agree with the remarks of my Leader regard­ some pains to set out the individual ing the necessity for a review of the Motor situations that could arise and the legal Vehicles Insurance Act. I was very dis­ complexities concerning them. He stated appointed, as was the Leader of the Opposi­ that the Bill was intended to provide cover tion, that-I will not say that nothing for every possible eventuality and to ensure constructive was put forward-nothin.g was that no-one was left unprotected. A solicitor put forward constructively to this Parlia­ practising in this field has drawn my attention ment arising from the considerable amount to a situation that is currently causing some Motor Vehicles Insurance (26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2567 concern. He is skilled in these matters and or used it at his request, and found out that has a considerable practice in them. I am only the vehicle-owner and not the driver was not putting it forward purely as an isolated indemnified. That deficiency is being thought of my own. The position arises corrected. I suggest that this other matter be in a situation in which I, or some looked at while we are clearing up these other person living in Queensland, am deficiencies. transferred in my employment to I congratulate the Treasurer and all those another State, or, for some other associated with this Bill for their endeavour reason, take up residence outside the State. to cover all contingencies. I know that the If, for example, I moved to Sydney or some Treasurer mentioned that, because of the other part of New South Wales, and it was legal complexities involved, he had briefed not a matter of my being there temporarily senior counsel to ensure that nothing was or on holidays-if I went there and actually left out of the Bill. It strikes me that there took up a position in a town in New South is one question that should be considered. Wales-! could be regarded legally as having If it was a case of additional risk to the taken up residence there. It may be that my insurer, I would say that a person would existing Queensland vehicle insurance has two or three months to run and I decide to have nothing to complain about. However, use that unexpired portion and intend to it would seem that this risk would not be register my vehicle and effect new insurance increased by the fact that I might be in in New South Wales when the time comes. New South Wales. Actually the risk might be greater if I was there as a stranger for It has been suggested to me that under ;the only a couple of weeks whilst on holiday, New South Wales Act it is an offence for a when the cover would still apply, because I person to drive in New South Wales a vehicle would possibly be more likely to be involved that is uninsured in New South Wales. A in an accident in that period than I would be person is exempted from that requirement if after being there for a month, when I would he is ordinarily resident outside New South have become more familiar with the local Wales and is temporarily in that State-for driving pattern. instance, on holidays-assuming that there is an existing insurance policy in Queensland I do not think that there is any question complying with our legislation. But if I have of unfairness to the insurer. He has my gone to New South Wales and have taken up premium till the period for which it was employment and purchased property there, paid expires. I do not think that I would be or taken a tenancy, and am relying operating outside the scope of my policy. on my Queensland insurance policy, Even with this amendment, cover is still and have an accident in which the liable to be lost if the policy is breached injured person claims that I was negligent, by driving under the influence of liquor, or the tendency is for that person to sue the when the car is in an unsafe condition. Of Nominal Defendant in New South Wales course, that is a logical provision and should because legally I may be held to be an be retained. I do not think that a person uninsured person in New South Wales and would, without being aware of it, breach there could be some doubt of his success in his policy to such an extent that there could an action against me. If damages are paid by be insurance complications. If the insurer the Nominal Defendant, he turns to me to in Queensland sought to avoid his obliga­ recover that amount. tion to the insured by claiming that damages I am informed that under the New South were not the essence of the matter-that it Wales Act, to save the Nominal Defendant had become a debt and that a payout was having to prove that the damages were not obligatory under the Act-I think that reasonable, etc., this amount is a debt that the that would be unfair. Some person who did Nominal Defendant can recover from me as not deserve such treatment could be hit, such. It has been suggested to me that my and, whilst it would be a mere bagatelle to Queensland insurance company could say, "We the insurance company, it would be a serious are not paying the amount because technically matter for the one concerned. it is not damages but a debt between you and I put that suggestion forward for con­ the Nominal Defendant," and there could be a legal quibble about whether my Queensland sideration. During discussion of this matter policy leaves me stranded in those circum­ with the draftsmen, I think they felt that stances. I do not know whether, as yet, that the situation that I have outlined would not has actually occurred. It has been suggested to arise. For those reasons, I would hope that me by a legal practitioner that this possibility at least the State Government Insurance should be considered. Office would agree with the learned advice that has been given here and accept its obli­ I realise that the Treasurer could say that gations to the insured, as would other com­ if I go to New South Wales and take up panies operating in this State. I think it is residence there I should regi&ter and insure simply a matter of fairness, and something my vehicle in New South Wales. But what that we should try to correct if we can. happens in many cases is that people tend to let their Queensland registration and I am certainly not qualified to query, or insurance run on and they are under the argue on, the way in which the Bill has been impression that they were covered, as were prepared. The Treasurer stated that, because people who, before ·the Treasurer introduced of the complexities of the law, senior counsel this measure, borrowed somebody else's car were briefed to recommend ways of carrying 2568 Motor Vehicles Insurance [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

out effectively what the Bill was designed to claimed for them by their so-called legal do, and I have no capacity to argue with advisers, that finalises the matter and there the way in which that has been done. From is no appeal to a higher court and, conse­ what I have been able to see in the Bill, quently, no expenses for barristers, solicitors it sets out to indemnify the driver. That or anybody else to go before the court and is a big improvement. It also clarifies some­ fight the case. thing that apparently most people do not consider to be in jeopardy, and that is the It is far better for a person who has matter of contribution. It protects the person been injured as a result of a car incident -I use the word "incident" because most in employment from any legal doubt as to of them are incidents, not accidents-or recourse being had to him by his employer for the relatives of a person who has been in certain circumstances, and I think that, killed, to accept a settlement, even though in general, the Bill is most welcome to the the settlement does appear superficially to Opposition and has our support. be much less than the lawyers and solicitors Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (4.54 have "kidded" the plaintiff that he might p.m.): I am glad that the hon. member for get if he goes to court. Baroona touched on one point that interested There is one point that I hoped the me greatly when I was reading the Minister's Treasurer might clear up at the introductory speech on the introduction of the Bill. He stage. Perhaps he will do me the favour said that he had gone to leading legal of trying to clear it up now. In most of luminaries in order to have it drawn up. the third-party insurance cover issued by I immediately formed the opinion, based on the insurance companies provision is made bitter experience, that if they had had any­ that if an accident is caused by a person thing to do with it, you could bet your life who is under the influence of liquor, th~; that the Bill, which will become law, will policy can be cancelled. I want to kno\11 be as full of legal loop-holes and funk-holes whether the policy can be cancelled in order to enrich the legal profession as a retrospectively. For example, a man who piece of fly-blown mutton would be full of had had an accident came to me. He holes after the maggots had left. ran a person down and injured him. He was brought before the court and was As far as I can see, the Ministe'f has made fined and had his licence suspended for an attempt to clear up some of the anomalies driving a car under the influence of liquor in the Act. For that, I am prepared to add or drugs. The insurance company cancelled my encomiums to those that have been voiced his policy immediately and told him that by the hon. member for Baroona. it would not be responsible in any way I was very interested, too, in a remark for any damages that may be awarded made by the Treasurer at the introductory against him. stage, when he said, in effect that the object I have no brief for the drunken driver of the Bill w!ls to see that the injured person, -none whatever-or for the dangerous driver. or the relat1ves of the dead person, were I am not like the people in this Chamber protected and adequately compensated for any who want to provide free legal advice for injury that might be suffered, or for the the drunken or dangerous driver. I abhor and death of the breadwinner or the person detest and abominate drunken drivers and on whom they were dependent. It is true dangerous drivers. However, I have seen this that costs of accidents have risen under confidence trick being played on people by the third-party insurance system. I suppose the insurance companies. It is not a question that is only to be expected. with the general of whether the driver is drunk in charge of the rise in the cost of living and everything car or under the influence of liquor; it is a else. But one must never lose sight of question of whether he is brought to court the fact that most cases of this type are and whether the court decides that he is settled out of court and that when the under the influence of liquor. The insurance settlement is being made between the lawyers companies, working under the provisions of representing the plaintiff and the lawyers the Act, work on the court's verdict, and representing the insurance company, they all hon. members know the peculiar verdicts are guided to some extent by the damages that are given by some courts in this State that have been awarded from time to time on such charges. That is why I am a by the courts in similar cases. strong advocate for the use of the breath­ alyser. I think it will plug many of the I know that many lawyers do all they loop-holes and funk-holes used by lawyers possibly can to provoke or incite the plaintiff to go to law. When such plaintiffs come and barristers to get real, genuine drunken to me, I explain to them that if they go drivers off the hook. to law there is a chance of their being There were two cases recently in Towns­ beaten on some legal technicality or other, vil!e. A man was charged with being drunk there is a chance of their not receiving in charge of a car-this deals with his anywhere near the damages claimed, and insurance policy, because he bad injured that, even if the verdict is in their favour, another person-and was taken to the watch­ the insurance company can appeal to a house. The Government Medical Officer higher court; whereas, if they take the amount in Townsville, Dr. Halberstater, had no hesita­ that is offered to them in settlement, even tion in issuing a certificate that the man though it is somewhat less than the amount was hopelessly intoxicated, yet he ~dodged Motor Vehicles Insurance (26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2569

the rap". He was found not guilty of happy with it but I must say that, if we being in charge of a car while under the are going to deal with the problems that will influence of liquor, only because he had arise under this measure, and all other refused to be examined by a doctor. He measures of a similar nature, then let us refused to submit to any tests made by face up to the fact that those who are really the doctor and the magistrate ruled that responsible for the death and carnage on the doctor's certificate was based purely and our roads are the members of the judiciary. simply on medical opinion and not on facts. A breathalyser test would put the issue in Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (5.4 p.m.): In such a case beyond doubt. speaking to this measure, let me say that I am glad that this legislation has been intro-­ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Hooper): duced. Let me also add that whilst the Order! wheels of justice are reputed to turn very Mr. AIKENS: l am merely saying that to slowly, I think that in this case the wheels show the weakness that exists and in the of our Legislature-amending Acts-have hope that the Treasurer might bring down an also turned very slowly. This particular amendment of the Act, even at this late problem is one that I raised in this Chamber otage, to close up this loop-hole. I am not in 1957, and I am surprised that the hon. going to elaborate on the point, Mr. Deputy member for Baroona should say that people Speaker. I know just how far your tolerance do not know of the risks they run in driving can be stretched. their cars. At that time, and many times We also had the case of a prominent afterwards until the Nominal Defendant was introduced, I had occasion in this Chamber to professional man who was charged with driving a vehicle while under the influence of speak about motor vehicle insurance. liquor, and the acting Government Medical Mr. Lee: The hon. member for South Officer found that he was not under the Brisbane tried to claim that he was the one influence-- who raised it. Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The hon. Mr. Hanlon: You could speak about it member is trying my tolerance just a little every day and the average person still would too far. l ask him to return to the matter not know what was covered. before the House. Mr. SMITH: That may well be. Mr. AIKENS: I am quite happy about your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I Mr. Aikens: It is couched in stilted have made my point, namely, that the phraseology and language. insurance companies cancel these policies Mr. SMITH: The position was that it was on the verdict given in the court, and the aired. I do not think this is stilted verdict in the court is not always factual phraseology and language. Just to show the because of the loop-holes and funk-holes in the law that are exploited by members of interjector that ordinary language does not have to be stilted, at that time I said this the legal profession when the person charged on 29th September, 1957, and quote from with drunken driving has the money to Vol. 218 of "Hansard" page 291- employ a barrister. We know, of course, that if he has, he has to fall over drunkenly in a "l wish to mention a matter which is of court and abuse the magistrate before he is grave importance to the people of Queens­ found guilty. We know, too, that the land. It relates to a grave deficiency in the introduction of the breathalyser test-- Motor Vehicles Insurance Act--one that constitutes a real peril to the security and Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! future of many car-owners and drivers throughout Queensland and one which Mr. AIKENS: The Treasurer, quite should be remedied at the earliest oppor­ rightly I think, stressed that this legislation is tunity. Since the passing of 1he Motor for the protection of the person who is Vehicles Insurance Act in 1936, I am sure injured or killed as the result of a motoring the majority of hon. members and people accident, so that the person who is injured generally have assumed that all claims in and the dependants of the person who is respect of third-party injury are automatic­ killed can get the maximum amount of ally covered by this insurance." damages. I feel sure that the Treasurer is Surely that is not stilted; surely that is not quite sincere in expressing that opinion, but difficult to understand. I can understand ·the if he wants to reduce the incidence of interjector's difficulty. He has amazing diffi­ accidents and death that come under the culty in understanding anything, simple or provisions of this Bill, why does he not have difficult. Surely those words are quite clear, a talk with the judges? The other day, in to the point, and incapable of any miscon­ the Court of Criminal Appeal in New South ception. Wales, it was said that judges should not be weakly merciful. I went on to exemplify what can happen by indicating that a person driving to South­ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! port in his own oar with a friend as a passenger is protected against any claims Mr. AIKENS: I am not developing that made by his friend; on the other hand, on the particular argument, Mr. Deputy Speaker, return journey, if for any reason--if he was and I again accept your ruling. I am quite sick or tired-the owner did not wish to drive 2570 Motor Vehicles Insurance [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill and he put his friend in the driving seat, the accident. No-one is prevented from should that owner suffer any injuries because circumventing the provisions of the law. I while the car was being driven by his friend it think it would be wise and prudent for people ran into a tree, ran off the road or into to look at the position of the ownership of another motor vehicle, he could not recover their motor vehicles. damages. I pointed out that it was quite a Eleven years ago I advised people not different thing if that person was in his to let their friends drive their cars when friend's car and the same accident occurred they were themselves riding in the car. I am under the same circumstances, because of .the now prepared to say that I withdraw that different ownership of that car. That seemed advice. I say, "By all means let your to be a matter that required some attention. friend drive it because if you are injured I said in 1957 that that matter should be you can recover damages; but at the present remedied at the earliest opportunity. I do not stage if you are driving your own car and think that this is the earliest opportunity. I are injured you do not have any claim." think that 11 years is too long. A driver driving his own car who is injured Mr. Aikens: Why did they ignore you for has no opportunity at all to claim, so so long? henceforth, on the passage of this legislation, it will be advisable for everybody who Mr. SMITH: The fact of the matter is that owns a car to sit in the passenger's seat it is now being done. and have someone else drive it for him. In New South Wales there is legislation of I am sure that will be a very welcome relief this nature. Quite frankly, I do not see that for many people. the complexity of the amendment is such The hon. member for Baroona referred to that we had to wait that length of time. It is the Nominal Defendant in New South Wales. a matter that was covered in New South Some people who are injured in Queens­ Wales and Victorian legislation before I land experience difficulty when they conduct spoke about it in this House in 1957. We a search and find that a car is registered could well have had it here to protect a large by a certain person and that the insurance number of people who have been disadvan­ cover is with a certain company. Quite taged in those 11 years. That is the point often there has been a change; the vehicle that I am making now. Because we are tardy is transferred from one owner to another, and because we are dilatory in our reforms and sometimes even the insurance is tram;­ people suffer-people who I do not think ferred. It has happened that people who should suffer. It has been my earnest have made a search feel confident that endeavour throughout the time that I have they know the owner and the insurance com­ been here to alleviate these injustices pany. In due course they notify the insurance wherever possible. That is why I have spoken company of the claim that they propose to particularly from time to time about the make, and then find that the car is not owned Motor Vehicles Insurance Act, and that is by the person who they believed owned it, why I was so insistent that we should have a and that it is uninsured. They then have Nominal Defendant Fund. We have it now, resort only to the Nominal Defendant, but but again it took three years to bring it unfortunately the time in which to notify about. These reforms should be brought in the Nominal Defendant may have elapsed. more quickly. This is not the fault of the person who is claiming. He has been prompt in making Mr. Hanson: I hope you take notice of the the search, but the particulars disclosed to learned submissions of the hon. member for South Brisbane on occasions. him have been inaccurate. We must tighten up the requirements for Mr. SMITH: If he likes to claim credit for notification of change of ownership and this, as no doubt he will, and if he says that change of insurance. It is very difficult he suggested this first, I will refer to page 291 indeed to get the time extended for claiming of "Hansard," Volume 218, on 24 September, on the Nominal Defendant. When a person 1957. How could the hon. member for South has made due search and is given a name, Brisbane assert that he first brought this up in and then writes to the insurance company the Chamber? and says, "We are unable to locate the owner; On the subject of motor vehicle insurance we propose to hold your company liable." generally, let me point out that the amending he gets a letter back saying, "We no longer provisions of the Bill must of necessity have any contractual obligation with this increase the number of claims that are made vehicle." The claimant is then forced back because there are people who have been on the Nominal Defendant. He cannot injured and who, because they owned the find the owner, who is probably a man of car involved, were not able to claim. Many straw or has gone into hiding to avoid of those cases concern husband and wives driv­ the possible consequences of his negligent ing their own cars. I think that from now on driving. The poor unfortunate claimant has that we can expect to see a number of people then to apply to the court, with fairly forming companies or, alternatively, putting limited hope of success, to have the time their cars in the names of their infant of notifying the Nominal Defendant extended. children. If you have a car, and your wife If at the date of an accident a motor drives, and if you have a teenage child who vehicle is shown to be owned by a certain does not drive, if that child becomes the person and insured by a named insurance owner you and your wife can claim irrespec­ company, for the purposes of this Act that tive of who is driving or what has caused company should be the company responsible. i\!lotor Vehicles Insurance (26 MARCH] Acts Amendment Bill 2571

It should not be able to avoid its respon­ of warning in winding up the introduction sibility by passing it on. I know this may be of this Bill that I felt that in the not-so-distant hard on the companies, but at the same time future there would. be an increase in certain if they cease to have any obligation in respect aspects of car insurance. of a vehicle, let them have their names taken off the register. Mr. Aikens: Don't you think it would be The other matters that were mentioned, better to try to cut down the rate of accidents in passing, as to contribution and so on and deaths on the road? follow naturally from the decisions of the court. I think they will be welcomed by Mr. CHALK: Anybody would want to out all concerned. There is no doubt at all down the accident rate. I believe that the about the purpose of the Act; it is to protect average legislator is doing all he possibly the third person. He will get his damages. can in that regard. It is indemnity we are discussing when we talk about the driver or the injured person; I have already indicated that during this damages are paid out in the name of the session, my colleague the Minister for Justice owner or driver and he is indemnified by will bring down legislation covering spouse v. the insurance company. spouse actions. That obviates the necessity to incorporate that provision in this Bill. It is commendable that this legislation has been introduced, even at this late stage. Happenings prior to the introduction of However, I sincerely hope that on future this legislation have not been discussed by occasions when there is such a glaring the Minister for Justice and me. However, inadequacy in our laws-when such an as the matter has been raised, I will discuss injustice is being done to so many people­ it with him. we may move more speedily and that the amendments do not have to wait 11 years The other point raised by the hon. member for implementation of my suggestions. for Baroona was one of quite some impor­ tance and I appr.eciate his raising it in this Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ debate. It has exercised the minds of my Treasurer) (5.15 p.m.), in reply: I appreciate officers and the Parliamentary Drafts­ the comments that have been made by those man. The case presented by the hon. mem­ hon. members who have spoken in the ber for Baroona and now recorded in second-reading debate. The hon. member "Hansard" is a factual outline of the set of for Baroona indicated that he believed that circumstances that could arise. It is true the provisions of the Bill as a whole are that the Nominal Defendant in New South desirable. \Vhile there may have been some Wales can regard the amount of damages delay in bringing this legislation down, as involved as a debt and consequently a was referred to by the hon. member for Queensland insurance company could argue Windsor, may I say that it is one of the on a point of law whether the debt is most intricate pieces of legislation that I covered by the insurance policy. The best have handled since I became a Minister. It advice I can get at the moment is that in was because of that, that it was decided to Queensland the insurance company would be take senior counsel's advice in an endeavour liable. All I can say at this stage, from the to plug up any weaknesses that existed in position I hold now, is that if a set of circum­ the Act and to ensure that the alterations stances as outlined by the hon. member for that were being made could be implemented Baroona arose, we believe that Queensland at law. insurance companies would be liable for pay­ The hon. member for Baroona referred ment. On the other hand, that does not say to a committee that was set up to investigate that they could not try to contest the legality motor vehicle insurance generally. This was of it. If I find that there are 1>Uch circum­ referred to by the Leader of the Opposition stances as suggested, on the next occasion on at the introductory stage, and in reply I which this Act is before the House I shall undertook to pursue this thought further. I certainly take steps to ensure that any holes have already had discussions with the in it are plugged up. Insurance Commissioner on this matter, The hon. member for Townsville South because I too realise that there are many got the issues that he raised a little mixed. problems associated with car insurance that He referred to a person who was involved in need attention. On the other hand, I have an accident-someone being run down-and some sympathy with many of the insurance the driver of the vehicle being convicted or companies in the problems facing them, par­ fined for drunken driving or dangerous driv­ ticularly the ever-increasing amounts of ing, or whatever the charge might have been. damages that are being awarded by the There are two bases of insurance-the com­ courts. I know that by accepting a premium prehensive side, and the third-party side. an insurance company does accept a respon­ Third-party insurance protects the person who sibility; it accepts a risk. On the other hand, is injured and claims damages for his injury. I am not unmindful that these risks on the This type of insurance cannot be cancelled road-the increased accident rate and the before the next renewal date, or discontinua­ payout that can be involved, whether it be tion of the registration of the vehicle. A for damages to a vehicle or for personal person who is run down is protected, and injury-seem to be ever increasing, and it the insurance company cannot declare the was because of that that I sounded the note policy void because of a court finding. 2572 Motor Vehicles Insurance &c. Bill [ASSEMBLYJ Questions

On the other hand, one of the conditions As I said at the introductory stage, the of comprehensive insurance for property idea behind the Bill is to provide protection damage is that if the policy-holder is involved for the person who is injured or for the in an accident and is found guilty of being damage that is done, and I believe that, as under the influence of alcohol, the policy legislators, that is our responsibility. On the is cancelled immediately and the damage to other hand, if a method can be found of his vehicle is his responsibility. The owners reducing the amount of premium that has to of other vehicles damaged also have the be paid, it is also our responsibility to right at law to seek redress from him. implement it. That is why I believe that a committee should be set up to look into the Mr. Aikens: Isn't it a matter of common question. law that if you ride with a drunken driver, knowing that he is drunk, and he injures The only other point raised related to an you or your relatives, you cannot claim extension of time for claims against the damages against him? Nominal Defendant where it can be proved that, because the registration of a motor Mr. CHALK: I am not an absolute vehicle has not been changed or the change authority on that point, and I would not of registration has not been notified, the time attempt to answer the hon. member's ques­ has expired within which a claim may be tion. I believe there is something in what made. I do not see anything vnong with the the hon. member for Townsville South has suggestion put forward by the hon. member, said. However, I am not qualified to give but I shall have to consider on what basis it him legal advice. If he wants it, he should would be possible to implement it. The point try to get it from someone more qualified that he made was well taken, and I shall refer than I am. But I am quite certain on the it to my officers for consideration at a future point that he raised about insurance policies. date. Mr. Aikens: It applies only to compre­ Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. hensive insurance? CoMMITTEE Mr. CHALK: It applies only to compre­ (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, hensive insurance. Greenslopes, in the chair) Mr. Aikens: I am happy about that. Clauses 1 to 13, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Mr. CHALK: It does not apply to third­ party insurance. That exists to protect the Bill reported, without amendment. individual, and it would be entirely wrong The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. to take from him cover against what might be regarded as his personal damages. The only other speaker was the hon. mem­ ber for Windsor. It is true that back in 1957 he raised certain of these matters in the House, and of that we are appreciative. I am not going to enter into any argument about who started it. From my researches, I believe that the first time it was raised in this Chamber was by the hon. member for Windsor. He also referred to the fact that in future he would advise his clients that it would be a good thing to register their motor vehicles in the name of their children. That point was seen by those to whom the amending legislation was referred. It is one of the points about which there was some deliberation and on which, as I said earlier. the advice of senior counsel was taken. I believe that what the hon. member for Windsor has said is correct; but, because I believe that it is necessary to bring in this driver indemnity, I think that insurance com­ panies have to accept the position. Although there may be an increase in the number of claims, in my opinion it will be found by the courts that they are legitimate. While I believe that the point raised by the hon. member is correot in principle, I doubt whether many people will resort to such a basis of registration. Again, if this occurred and the claims for damages and the amount of money involved increased so greatly, the matter would be considered further by the Government.