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Xolisani Holland Constitutional Court Oral History Project 7th December 2011 Int This is an interview with Xolisani Holland and it’s the 7th of December 2011. Xolisani, thank you so much for agreeing to participate in the Constitutional Court Oral History Project, we really appreciate it. XH Thanks very much, I mean, it’s an honour for me to be part of the project. Int Thank you. I wondered if we could start, if you could talk about early childhood memories in terms of where and when you were born, a bit about your family background, and what were your experiences growing up in South Africa under apartheid? XH Ja, well, I’m a last-born of a family of ten…we are ten. It’s only one sister, and I have nine brothers. And really, you know, when I grew up, when I heard the story of the death of my father in 1978, when I was maybe in primary school or so, it really changed my life, and I took things differently, you know. As a result I joined politics at a very young age, I think I was in standard five when I joined the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania. And of course with the influence of my brother. They were not much in politics then and really there was a huge fight between me and them when they discovered that I was a member of the PAC. PAC was not really popular than the ANC in the late eighties. But then I grew up under the politics of the PAC. And then my father died in a very violent way, in fact, we didn’t even know where his grown was until recently. He was killed, apparently, by apartheid machinery and that thing, I mean, to me, gave me a lot of anger, and a cause for justice. I wanted really to know what happened to him. I think that was the reasons that I chose to be a lawyer. So indeed, I mean…life was a challenge, I mean, after the death of my father, obviously most of my siblings were very young, so for my mother it was a very challenge, and I really thank her for the spirit that they had to raise us and, I mean, I have a Masters degree in law today because of her, I mean, under the challenges that were there. Int Xolisani, you mentioned that your father passed away under very difficult circumstances, I wondered if you could talk about…was he politically active, your dad? XH Not really, not really. He was not really politically active. But of course, I mean, apparently he was housing the guerrillas but within the farm; he was working in this farm and also grew up on this farm, so apparently information was leaked that he was housing guerrillas from time to time that were entering our villages and training us. Because I was also trained by APLA forces, I mean, as, well, I mean, to protect the community. So my father was housing those 1 people and giving them food and so on and so on. But then when it was discovered and then he was ambushed apparently. I mean, he was taken away and then apparently killed with a few of the guys. Int I’m sorry to hear that…before your father’s death, what sort of childhood did you have…because you said you changed after his death? XH Ja, I think that like many in our rural area, you grew up normally like any other child. I mean, at home there were a lot of cattle and, you know, sheep, goats, and so on, so we’d look after them and then from time to time we have our small football teams, and then we’ll play like any other children and I was a good football player as well at the time. Ja, you know, but then you went to primary school. Primary school, you know, I didn’t enjoy much about primary school, you know, because the beatings. The teachers were very aggressive, but most of the people are saying that the then students are better than now, because now there is no beating anymore. But I differ with that, because many of the guys didn’t go to school, I mean, they left school because they felt abused and so on and so on. But then we had just such a normal…I mean, we grew up normally, like any other childhood environment. But of course I was…after the death of my father, things changed as a family. I mean, sufferings and so on and so on, but I mean, my mother was always there for us. I cannot complain much, you know, because there are many people that didn’t have opportunities that I had. So I cannot complain much, but really life was a challenge when we were growing up, especially primary school and secondary school life. Int When you say it was a challenge, was that because of finances or was it because of the type of education? What were some of the challenges? XH Both, both, I mean, you know, financially we were not that good, obviously we relied from my mother, and besides that, I mean, of course my mother had this herd of cattle, from time to time she will sell and then provide for the family. But again, education, I mean, education for us was a struggle. I mean, I travelled seven kilometres to and from school every day. Int Walking? XH Walking, I mean, from my village, passing town, you know. You know, when we were passing the town, there is a school here, but only for white people. We have to go travel other kilometres. And besides that, I mean, obviously was no electricity. But again when we were coming from the village there’s no electricity. You pass town, there’s electricity again, you go to another village there’s no electricity. So that’s the things that really we had to go through. But again, I mean, in high school…in high school, besides the fact that we learnt a lot, besides the Bantu education that we were forced to learn. You know, 2 teachers were really prepared to risk their lives by continuous political…they wanted us to understand what was it that was happening in the country, and what is it that we have to strive to achieve. Int I was wondering, when you mentioned going through the town and seeing the electricity and the school, at what point did you start questioning why things were the way they were? Was it after your dad’s death or was it before that? XH Obviously after my dad’s death. My father died when I was very young; I only head about stories when I grew up. I had developed a hatred for white people. I think that’s because…that was the reason that I joined the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania then. But then I was young, I mean, young people like me at that stage, could not make proper political judgments. Ja, but because the policy of the PAC was that aggressive than that of the ANC, so I’m sure that was one of the reasons that I chose at the time to join the PAC. Int You also mentioned the argument you had with your brother…brothers? I wondered whether you could talk about what the difference in ideology was? XH I remember that when I was, for instance, doing matric, I used to go to this library, regularly, so as a result the library staff there knew me very well, and I was young, and all of them were white. So my brother apparently went to the library there and when he was signing for the books they saw my surname, they asked, “no, that boy that’s studying in that school is it your brother?” He said, “Yes.” When he came back home, he said to me, “Look brother, you have to stop this thing of PAC, because you see, those white people in that library likes you”(laughs). I laughed at it but indeed I left PAC after some years and I joined the ANC. Int Why was that? Why did you leave the PAC? XH I left the PAC in 1994…in 1996. I think the reason for that, when I was young, as I said, I mean, young people cannot make proper political judgments. And in 1996, there were a lot of problems with the PAC, but besides that, I saw the ANC as a correct organisation to take the country forward. I began to question the policies of the PAC, and whether they are realistic or not. So I thought that I must leave it, yes… Int I was wondering, you mentioned high school also being a challenge at what point did you…complete your studies and what did you do thereafter? XH Well, okay, I passed my matric, I think in 1993, and I did virtually nothing from 1993 to 1998, when I started my first degree. Obviously I was trying to 3 organise…at one stage I worked at the garage as a petrol attendant, and at one stage I worked at a certain firm…I was really trying to organise myself some funds to assist the fees…just to get the registration funds, then I told myself I would see what I will do thereafter. But indeed I managed to collect some funds and I registered at the University of Fort Hare in 1998 for an LLB degree.

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