COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 1 OCTOBER 1997

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIFTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 1 OCTOBER

Personal Explanations ...... 7271 Social Security and Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment (Male Total Average Weekly Earnings Benchmark) Bill 1997— In Committee ...... 7272 Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996— Second Reading ...... 7279 In Committee ...... 7292 Matters of Public Interest— Travel Allowances ...... 7306 Travel Allowances ...... 7309 Dr Clive Hamilton ...... 7311 Aboriginal Health ...... 7316 National Crime Authority ...... 7319 Small Business ...... 7323 Distinguished Visitors ...... 7325 Questions Without Notice— Job Security ...... 7325 Distinguished Visitors ...... 7326 Questions Without Notice— Small Business: Fair Trading ...... 7326 Unemployment ...... 7327 Travel Allowances ...... 7328 Unemployment ...... 7330 Literacy Standards: Learning Disabilities ...... 7332 Unemployment: Job Security ...... 7334 Tasmanian Forests ...... 7335 Public Employment Placement Enterprise ...... 7336 Working Nation: Employment Programs ...... 7337 Privilege ...... 7340 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Travel Allowances ...... 7341 Petitions— Repatriation Benefits ...... 7348 Logging and Woodchipping ...... 7348 Notices of Motion— Older Persons ...... 7349 Legal and Constitutional References Committee ...... 7349 Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee ...... 7349 Ministers and Ministerial Staff ...... 7349 Child Care ...... 7350 Electricity ...... 7351 Community Affairs References Committee ...... 7351 Travel Allowances ...... 7351 Family Law Regulations ...... 7351 Regulations and Ordinances Committee ...... 7351 National Refugee Week ...... 7356 Retail Industry ...... 7356 Nursing Homes ...... 7356 Finance and Public Administration References Committee ...... 7356 Employment, Education and Training References Committee ...... 7357 Uranium ...... 7357 Human Rights ...... 7357 Order of Business— First Speech ...... 7358 Committees— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee— Extension of Time ...... 7358 CONTENTS—continued

Order of Business— Child Care ...... 7358 Antipersonnel Mines ...... 7358 Economics References Committee ...... 7358 Commonwealth Ombudsman ...... 7358 Travel Allowances ...... 7358 Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts References Committee ...... 7358 Kalpana Chakma ...... 7358 Committees— Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee—Extension of Time . 7358 Broadcasting Services Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997— First Reading ...... 7359 Second Reading ...... 7359 Consideration of Legislation ...... 7359 Native Title ...... 7359 North-West Cape ...... 7360 Notices of Motion— Introduction of Legislation ...... 7361 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 7361 Community Affairs References Committee—Report ...... 7361 Public Works Committee—Reports ...... 7368 First Speech ...... 7370 Documents— Timor Gap Zone of Cooperation ...... 7373 Parliamentary Zone: East Block Building ...... 7373 Parliamentary Zone: Magna Carta Memorial ...... 7373 Committees— Membership ...... 7373 Foreign Affairs and Trade Legislation Amendment Bill 1997, Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997, Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997— First Reading ...... 7374 Second Reading ...... 7374 Sydney Airport Demand Management Bill 1997— First Reading ...... 7379 Second Reading ...... 7379 Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill 1997, Customs Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill 1997, Fuel Misuse (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997, Fuel Sale (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997, Fuel Blending (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997, Fuel (Penalty Surcharges) Administration Bill 1997, Customs and Excise Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997, Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997, Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997— First Reading ...... 7381 Second Reading ...... 7381 Customs Legislation (Anti-dumping) Amendment Bill 1997, Customs Tariff (Anti-dumping) Amendment Bill 1997— Report of Economics Legislation Committee ...... 7385 Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996— In Committee ...... 7385 Documents— Australian Wool Research and Promotion Organisation ...... 7399 Judge Advocate-General ...... 7400 Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia ...... 7400 Australia Post ...... 7401 CONTENTS—continued

Adjournment— South Australia: Election ...... 7401 Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group ...... 7403 Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group ...... 7404 South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd ...... 7405 Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group ...... 7407 Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group ...... 7408 Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group ...... 7409 Documents— Tabling ...... 7410 Questions on Notice— Minister for Health and Family Services: Media Monitoring Services— (Question No. 717) ...... 7411 Defence Export Approvals—(Question No. 740) ...... 7411 Government Contracts—(Question No. 771) ...... 7418 Government Contracts—(Question No. 775) ...... 7419 Universities: Mergers—(Question No. 786) ...... 7419 Australian Food Standards Code—(Question No. 808) ...... 7420 University Teacher Training—(Question No. 812) ...... 7420 Department of Workplace Relations and Small Business: Salary Packaging—(Question No. 840) ...... 7422 Department of Health and Family Services: Salary Packaging— (Question No. 846) ...... 7423 SENATE 7271

Wednesday, 1 October 1997 complemented by pilot reviews of 60 people in one location to survey rent assistance recipients in more detail. The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. The proportion of dwellings containing rent Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., assistance recipients ranges from 10 per cent and read prayers. to 24 per cent but over the four areas totalled PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS 21 per cent of these dwellings. In developing the costings, allowances were then made to Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister cater for houses attracting market rents and for Social Security and Minister Assisting the factors such as movement in and out of public Prime Minister for the Status of Women) housing. It was assumed that those affected (9.31 a.m.)—I seek leave to make a personal were being paid at the average level of rent explanation. assistance—that is, less than the maximum Leave granted. rate—being paid at the time. Senator NEWMAN—On Monday I re- I turn to the number of households where ceived written advice from my department the principal tenant is charging subtenants that a pilot review of rent assistance recipients more than the rent that has to be paid to the in public housing had found that 100 per cent State Housing Authority. The available infor- claimed more than the rent which would be mation suggests that most principal tenants paid to the State Housing Authority by a with subtenants receiving rent assistance are couple on a social security payment with a charging the subtenants more than the addi- dependent child or would be paid by a sole tional rent that they have to pass on to the parent with a dependent child. I repeated that State Housing Authority in respect of that advice in the information I gave to the Senate. subtenant. Today I have been informed that the figure of Anecdotal evidence supported by some 100 per cent is not accurate and that it is not limited individual reviews suggest that there possible at this stage to provide an accurate are cases where subtenants of public housing figure. For that, I apologise to the Senate. I are charged a level of rent which exceeds the very much regret that that information was total household rent that the principal tenant given. has to pay to the SHA. However, until more I am able to inform the Senate of the basis detailed information is available from match- for the estimates and provide the department’s ing with data supplied by SHAs, it is not advice to me about the number of households possible to define the extent to which this in this situation. I turn to the basis for the occurs. None of this changes the fundamen- estimates. The calculation of savings from the tals. The government set out to prevent per- measure are necessarily estimates. For privacy sons who were receiving the advantages of reasons, it is not possible to collect all the living in public housing getting further advan- necessary data until the legislation has been tage from rent assistance. The measure passed. The definitive figures will not be achieves that purpose. known until matching has been completed Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.35 with data supplied by state housing authori- a.m.)—I seek leave to make a brief statement ties. The data on which the estimates are on the same matter. based, therefore, is not conclusive but it is indicative. Leave granted. The estimates of savings assume that 44,000 Senator NEAL—I am somewhat concerned people will be affected by the measure. These that this disclosure did not come forward until estimates are based on review activity and the government was requested to provide that computer matching to identify rent assistance information. It leads to the conclusion that, recipients in public housing covering four except for the fact that the opposition and areas in regional and metropolitan New South Senator Harradine requested the information Wales covering 4,942 dwellings. This was of the survey, it may never have been dis- 7272 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 closed to this chamber that there had been an people on newstart allowances—even if they error. I suppose I cannot say that that is are married or have children—650,000 people absolutely the case, but I think that many receiving parenting allowance; 73,000 people people who followed the debate might ques- on partner allowance—the partners of unem- tion that in their minds. ployed people—and tens of thousands of It seems unlikely to me, bearing in mind people granted mature age allowances after 30 that there is a sample of only 60 people, that June 1996. it is really impossible over the period that this Unless this request is carried, all those bill has been debated to take out the personal people I have just mentioned will not be aspects contained in the review and give us benchmarked and, in real terms against some numbers as to those people who are general wages in the community, their allow- supposedly receiving more from their sub- ances will be moving backwards. lettors than they are paying in additional rent. I believe that the Senate, in relying on any Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister of the information that we have been advised for Social Security and Minister Assisting the by the minister is contained in this survey or Prime Minister for the Status of Women) review, should treat this information with a (9.38 p.m.)—Senator Neal was claiming great deal of caution. I would even go so far yesterday that Labor in government had as to suggest that senators should put this always benchmarked the pension to 25 per matter out of their minds in determining cent. I would ask her if she would like to whether or not they should support the reconsider that statement. amendment that we are shortly going to be Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (9.39 dealing with. a.m.)—I wanted to make a couple of com- ments in this debate that have not been SOCIAL SECURITY AND VETERANS’ canvassed before. I have got to say that I do AFFAIRS LEGISLATION understand the minister’s concern about Labor AMENDMENT (MALE TOTAL at this point because they really should have AVERAGE WEEKLY EARNINGS fixed this when they were in government. If BENCHMARK) BILL 1997 they have not, I can understand the minister In Committee being a little put out. However, the other point that I want to make is: whether or not Consideration resumed from 30 September. Labor did it when they were in government, The CHAIRMAN—The committee is it is debatable whether that should be the considering the Social Security and Veterans’ basis for what this government should do. Affairs Legislation Amendment (Male Total Average Weekly Earnings Benchmark) Bill If it is right to make the benchmark the 1997 and requests Nos (3) and (8) moved by male total weekly average earnings for pen- Senator Neal. The question is that the requests sioners, I believe it is also right to make that be agreed to. the benchmark for allowees. The reason I say that is because one of the problems we have Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.37 with benchmarking and linking that to the a.m.)—We have gone through this debate CPI is that the CPI is based on a basket of quite extensively, but because of the elapse of goods which, for pensioners and allowees, is time since we last dealt with it, I would like fairly irrelevant. In fact, one of the complaints to briefly recap. The effect of this amendment I constantly get from pensioners is that when is to ensure that the benchmarking against they go into their local shop to buy food, their average weekly male total earnings is set in perception is that prices are always going up. legislation for allowances as well as for The reason why their perception that it is pensions. costing them more to live does not line up The people who will not have the benefit of with the small increase in the CPI which we this benchmarking, even through an automatic are experiencing at the moment is that those flow-on, are about 800,000 unemployed baskets of goods contain things such as Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7273 interest rates which, as we know, are at yesterday. My recollection is that she claimed almost an all time low. that the ALP had always benchmarked pen- The basic consumables which are important sions at 25 per cent. I therefore would table to pensioners do not play as large a part in a table demonstrating the single rate of the CPI as would indicate to pensioners that pension as a percentage of male total average the CPI is an accurate measure of the costs weekly earnings, from February 1983 to May they are experiencing. That is why the Demo- 1997, by quarter. crats are inclined to support these amend- The interesting thing is that, as I said ments. We do believe that the male total yesterday, despite Gough Whitlam’s claiming average weekly earnings is a much more that they were going to benchmark pensions accurate measure at the present time for to 25 per cent of MTAWE, and despite the pensions and allowances. In terms of those on fact that that remained Labor party policy— low incomes, I know there is some work we had the Hawke and Keating governments being done on the CPI which would perhaps going from February 1983 through to 18 make it a better reflection of the costs they months ago—as the table will show, it was experience but, until that is done, the Demo- only after 1991 that they started to take action crats certainly believe that male total average about that. weekly earnings is a more accurate bench- So it is not a very convincing argument that mark. you have just used, Senator Neal. I am glad My understanding is that in most of the that your government saw the light late in its European countries social security payments day but it did have a long time to, first of all, are tied to minimum wages, so obviously that actually benchmark the pensions to the 25 per is a recognition that that is, at the present cent and also to do something about putting time, a more accurate measurement. I simply it into legislation. share that information as part of this debate. I think Senator Woodley said that the CPI Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister was irrelevant in terms of benchmarks for for Social Security and Minister Assisting the pensions. I do not know whether he is aware Prime Minister for the Status of Women) that in 1993—I think it was 1993; I am not (9.42 a.m.)—I did ask Senator Neal a ques- positive of that from memory—the Australian tion and I hope she is going to answer me. Bureau of Statistics did a pensioner index, if Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.42 you like, and found that that would be disad- a.m.)—I am. I just wanted to allow Senator vantageous to pensioners largely because it Woodley the opportunity to have his say. I did not include housing costs. Even though want to clarify any misunderstanding that the older people have frequently paid off their minister may have about the statements I home—not all of them are home owners, made yesterday. I want to say absolutely that anyway—the cost of their home flows back I concede, and have always conceded in this to them in maintenance costs, rates, land tax debate, that there was no legislation in place and things like that. So in a very real sense for the benchmarking of pensions but the housing costs are still an issue for older government, since about 1991, always ensured people. It was not a very good index. that pensions were at least 25 per cent of As you said, work is continuing by the average male weekly earnings, except for one Bureau of Statistics. Often pensioners are not occasion when it slipped behind by some 15c. aware of the fact that it is not the Department I believe that was in about 1993 but I am not of Social Security that sets the index. We take absolutely certain about that. Maybe the an independent umpire’s assessment of the department can confirm that. index. I think Senator Woodley also said that Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister the MTAWE would be a more accurate for Social Security and Minister Assisting the benchmark for pensions to be tied to. I would Prime Minister for the Status of Women) question that. I do not think it is a question of (9.43 a.m.)—I thank Senator Neal for her more accuracy. It is a question of yet another attempt to clarify what she was claiming benchmark. So pensioners will now have the 7274 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 benefits of two benchmarks. One relates to AYES the cost of living as ABS determines it and Ray, R. F. Schacht, C. C. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. the other relates to the standard of living of Woodley, J. those in the workplace. It is good for the NOES dignity of older Australians to have their Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. entitlements tied to those two indices. That Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. surely means that we are guaranteeing to the Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. best we can as a government that pensioners Crane, W. Ellison, C. will not miss out if the cost of living rises or Ferguson, A. B. Gibson, B. F. if wages rise. Heffernan, W. Herron, J. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. Senator Woodley mentioned Europe. I think Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. there is a misconception there. The majority Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. of European countries have pension schemes McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. which are directly related to the workplace. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. They are insurance schemes and, therefore, Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. are tied to people’s contribution rates. So it is Watson, J. O. W. like trying to compare apples with oranges to PAIRS use that analogy in this debate. Carr, K. Hill, R. M. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (9.49 Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. a.m.)—I thank the minister for that explan- Evans, C. V. Tierney, J. ation. I certainly would not want to move to Faulkner, J. P. Alston, R. K. R. Lundy, K. Minchin, N. H. the European system and tie the pension to Mackay, S. Vanstone, A. E. the wage people are receiving when they O’Brien, K. W. K. Troeth, J. retire because that would put in a whole Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. unjust differential. The information I had was Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. that the minimum wage is also a significant Sherry, N. Ferris, J. factor, certainly in the Netherlands. But I * denotes teller accept that we are talking about the same Question so resolved in the negative. thing. Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.57 Question put: a.m.)—by leave—I move: That the amendment (Senator Neal’s) be agreed (5) Schedule 1, item 2, page 4 (line 1), omit to. "annualised", substitute "anticipated". (6) Schedule 1, item 2, page 4 (lines 3 and 4), omit "the most recent December quarter", The committee divided. [9.54 a.m.] substitute "the following June quarter". (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) (7) Schedule 1, item 2, page 4 (lines 5 and 6), Ayes ...... 27 omit "the most recent June quarter", substitute "the following December quarter". Noes ...... 27 —— (9) Schedule 1, item 2, page 4 (lines 25 to 31), Majority ...... 0 omit subsection (3), substitute: —— (3) For the purposes of this section, the AYES anticipated MTAWE figure for a quarter Allison, L. Bishop, M. is worked out using the following formu- Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. la: Brown, B. Campbell, G. Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. 52AX/1 + (AE forecast) Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. Denman, K. J. * where: Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. Kernot, C. A is: Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. (a) if the indexation day is a 20 March— McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. the amount set out for the reference Murray, A. Neal, B. J. period in the most recent December Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7275

quarter under the headings "Average ence period in the most recent June Weekly Earnings of Employees, Aus- quarter under the headings "Average tralia—Males—All males—Total earn- Weekly Earnings of Employees, Aus- ings—ORIGINAL" in a document tralia—Males—All males—Total earn- published by the Australian Statistical ings—ORIGINAL" in a document entitled "Average Weekly Earnings, published by the Australian Statistical States and Australia"; or entitled "Average Weekly Earnings, (b) if the indexation day is a 20 Septem- States and Australia"; and ber—the amount set out for the refer- AE forecast is the percentage specified in ence period in the most recent June the most recent Budget papers as the fore- quarter under the headings "Average cast movement in relation to average earn- Weekly Earnings of Employees, Aus- ings over the 4 quarters of the financial year tralia—Males—All males—Total earn- to which the Budget papers relate, expressed ings—ORIGINAL" in a document in decimal form. published by the Australian Statistical entitled "Average Weekly Earnings, Note: If the percentage specified is negative, States and Australia"; and the percentage is taken to be 0%. AE forecast is the percentage specified in The effect of these requests is to ensure that the most recent Budget papers as the fore- pensions are, in fact, benchmarked at 25 per cast movement in relation to average earn- cent of MTAWE at all times rather than just ings over the 4 quarters of the financial year at the particular point of time the benchmark- to which the Budget papers relate, expressed in decimal form. ing is done. The present proposal contained within the government’s legislation means Note: If the percentage specified is negative, the percentage is taken to be 0%. that, though at the point of benchmarking it will be at least 25 per cent, for the subsequent (11) Schedule 1, page 6 (line 7), omit "annua- lised", substitute "anticipated". six months the pension will fall behind. In fact, it is potentially possible that, in a situa- (12) Schedule 1, page 6 (lines 9 and 10), omit "the most recent December quarter", substi- tion where wages are increasing at a reason- tute "the following June quarter". ably rapid rate, the balance of the six months pensions could be less than 25 per cent. (13) Schedule 1, page 6 (lines 11 and 12), omit "the most recent June quarter", substitute These requests actually base the variation "the following December quarter". on a prediction of what total average weekly (14) Schedule 1, page 6 (line 31) to page 7 (line earnings will be in six months time. So it 2), omit subsection (3), substitute: ensures that at all times the pension is above (3) For the purposes of this section, the that 25 per cent benchmark, not just at the anticipated MTAWE figure for a quarter commencement of the six-month period. is worked out using the following formu- la: Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security and Minister Assisting the 52AX/1 + (AE forecast) Prime Minister for the Status of Women) (9.59 a.m.)—I do have some quite serious where: points to make about requests 5, 6, 7 and 9. A is: I hope that Senator Neal and Senator Woodley will take particular account of these (a) if the indexation day is a 20 March— matters, because I believe they are not simply the amount set out for the reference period in the most recent December debating points but very important issues to quarter under the headings "Average consider before voting. Weekly Earnings of Employees, Aus- ALP requests 5, 6, 7 and 9 provide that, tralia—Males—All males—Total earn- ings—ORIGINAL" in a document pub- instead of using the existing published figures, lished by the Australian Statistical as proposed by the government, the figures to entitled "Average Weekly Earnings, be used will be anticipated figures. These States and Australia"; or anticipated figures will be produced by taking (b) if the indexation day is a 20 Septem- an annualised figure, which will be obtained ber—the amount set out for the refer- from the last quarter for which figures are 7276 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 available, and multiplying it by the square between the two indexation points. Both of root of the percentage increase which has those would be forecast. been forecast for the next four quarters in the most recent budget papers. We are not proposing to use Treasury First of all, the ALP requests do not provide projections of CPI or MTAWE growth, that the budget papers have to be papers that because of the confidential nature of those are available to the public, so there is some projections. As we all know from past history, question about whether confidential Treasury the volatility of Treasury projections, which figures—not yet released—would have to be we have seen over the years, may lead to used. For any government, that would be unnecessary increases or to no increase where totally inappropriate. That is the first point. an increase is warranted. I do not think any of us would want that to happen. In seeing that Secondly, there is a contradiction in the people got what they were entitled to and ALP requests. I do not know if they are aware nothing more than they were entitled to, we of this, but ALP requests 6 and 7 refer to would be totally reliant on the accuracy of anticipating the next June or December Treasury’s projections. quarter, whereas ALP request 9 provides that the figure to be used is the percentage in- MTAWE is used as the measure because it crease forecast for the next four quarters. That measures the level of wages across the work is confusing and strange, to say the least. force, including full-time, part-time, casual Perhaps we will get an explanation. and junior employees. That, we believe, is a Thirdly—and perhaps this is the most broad spread, reflective of community differ- serious of all for any government to face— ences. It is very relevant to social security when the ALP made an ad hoc increase in customers. For the reasons I have given, we 1993, they used anticipated figures rather than in the government cannot accept the requests the actual figures. That led to a pension the opposition has introduced. They introduce overpayment—which I am sure the ALP cost and complexity and they would signifi- would not have chosen—in the order of cantly increase outlays. For many reasons, as $156.34 million over the six months to July was demonstrated during Labor’s 1993 in- 1993. That, you can see, is an unsatisfactory crease, estimates made at budget time—up to way of determining what the pension should 13 months in advance—may not be accurate. be at any given time. The government is The ALP formula apparently aims to build in concerned to ensure that such excess pay- some allowance for rises in MTAWE between ments are minimised. That is why the actual indexation points and the lag between the MTAWE figures are used, rather than antici- survey dates and the indexation points. I think pated figures. I have made clear exactly why we find this unacceptable. Our proposal is that the benchmark be assessed at the existing CPI indexation points I will conclude by saying that the ALP’s of 20 March and 20 September each year. formula could result in significant additional Those are chosen to try to minimise confusion outlays where the actual figure is lower than to older people, so that things do not change the forecast figure. This would then build in too frequently in the year. They worry when to all future indexations. The formula pro- they get a letter from us telling them that posed, as I have said, is complex. It lacks there has been a change, even if it is benefi- transparency to customers and, as the ALP cial. They worry at the sight of the letter, would know from their 1993 expenditure— often. based on projections which cost so dearly We would be using the most recent figures because the actual increase in the MTAWE released by the Australian Bureau of Statist- was less than the forecast relied on to pay ics. They provide an accurate benchmark those pension increases—that would not be instead of relying on potentially inaccurate fair to the taxpayer. I do not believe you forecasts about the potential movements of could call it good government. If the forecasts average weekly earnings and inflation figures were the other way around, it would also not Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7277 be fair to the pensioners if they were to get accuracy of their budget paper predictions. less than they should have been entitled to. But in the general course of things these I will leave it at that, for senators to con- projections are reasonably accurate, though template. I think these are very serious points obviously occasionally they are wrong. The which should be taken into account before a thing is that even if there is a slight inaccura- vote is taken. cy, and occasionally this does occur, normally it involves a very small amount and the Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.05 variation is then taken into account and a.m.)—I would like to deal with the four rectified the next time the benchmarking matters that have been raised by the minister. occurs, six months later. I have to say that they really do not have any substance. There is one other matter that I should deal There is an allegation made by the minister with. The minister seems to feel that, based that the calculations would be based on on our proposal, there would be benchmark- projections contained in the budget papers ing more than twice a year. I wish to make it which she says are not publicly available. The very clear, Minister, that our proposal is budget papers are publicly available. If there exactly the same as yours in terms of the is some proposal by this government to no number of times the benchmarking occurs; it longer make the budget papers available, the would occur twice a year, the same as it minister should say so. At the present time, would in your proposal. So the idea that, if they are part of a public document. our proposition were adopted by the Senate, The second matter the minister raised is that there would be constant changes occurring she seemed to think there was some sort of and that pensioners would be threatened and contradiction between the basis of anticipation concerned and frightened really holds no as between requests 5-7 and request no. 9. water at all. Requests 5 and 7 relate to a period of six months. You will see that, contained in The fundamental point is: should pensioners request No. 9, the calculation is based on a have their pensions benchmarked so that they square root of the twelve-month period. are always at least 25 per cent of male total Minister, you probably do not know this but average weekly earnings or should they only I am sure your department can tell you: the be 25 per cent for one brief moment and then square root of 12 months is six months. It is for the following six months slip behind, just a mathematical issue, but you should be because that is the proposal that this govern- advised that they are in fact equivalent. It is ment is putting forward? Their proposal is like saying that there is a discrepancy because that, on one day in March and September, on the one hand you have four and on the pensions would be 25 per cent of MTAWE other two plus two. They are the same. but for virtually the rest of the year they would be slipping behind. In a period of very The other matter that you have raised is the high wages growth, as appears to be develop- question of an overpayment; that there is a ing under this government, that slipping possibility that the anticipated MTAWE behind could be quite substantial. We believe would in fact be higher than it actually is that, if this government has promised that once it is reached. The accuracy of those pensions be benchmarked at that level, they figures entirely relies on the budget papers should be benchmarked for the whole year, put together by the government, so it interests not just for the two days in the year and then me that you are making an assertion that your slip behind the rest of the time. We believe government will not be able to provide that they are not really keeping their promise accurate predictions. unless they accept our request. I would ask Bearing in mind your experience in employ- the minister to support this request on the ment growth and economic growth, I suppose basis that it ensures compliance with their I can understand why government ministers promise to benchmark pensions at 25 per would be somewhat concerned about the cent. 7278 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Australian Labor Party in the draft amend- for Social Security and Minister Assisting the ments that they circulated in the Senate last Prime Minister for the Status of Women) year. Really, it is the only feasible, respon- (10.11 a.m.)—Speaking firstly about the sible, practical legislative approach. Let us budget papers issue, Senator Neal has been hope that the Senate can learn from the 1993 long enough in this place to understand that experience. It is not a route that you would the term ‘budget papers’ covers a range of responsibly go down. Surely the ALP can papers. Some have always been publicly recognise that now and I would urge the available and some have always not been Democrats to take that very seriously into publicly available, and Treasury forecasts fall account. into the latter category. The last Labor Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.15 government did not make those papers avail- a.m.)—I have just had a member of staff get able. It has not been the practice. So when I Budget Paper No. 1. The figures that are said that there was not an acceptable transpar- required for the adjustment contained in our ency, that was an accurate comment and one amendment are on page 2/24 of Budget Paper that I stand by. If you are proposing that it No. 1, a public document. I am really a bit will change under the next government, that startled by your continued assertion that it is is yet another promise that I think you will not a public document. find difficult to keep in government. Another matter that I would like to put to On the overpayment issue, I think I have you, Minister, is that your office was request- already made that very clear. You did not get ed to provide evidence that under your formu- your forecasts right and there was a $153 la pensions would actually ever reach 25 per million extra bill that should not have been cent. We have not received any response. paid by the Australian taxpayer because the Why is that? Is it that you cannot provide that forecasts were wrong. I am not blaming you evidence? but there were Treasury forecasts on which your government acted. Are you saying that Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister we should just knowingly introduce a system for Social Security and Minister Assisting the where such enormous inaccuracies and over- Prime Minister for the Status of Women) payments can be made? You said something (10.15 a.m.)—I understand that a response about a slight inaccuracy. I would hardly call was given to your office, that the pension was that a slight inaccuracy. You said it does not already at 25.3 per cent. usually occur. You only benchmarked twice Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.16 so you can hardly say ‘usually’ anything. You a.m.)—I did not receive it but, even if I did, said something about being rectified six that is not the request that has been made. months later. What if the flaw is the other What we wanted was evidence that under way and the pensioners have not kept up to your formula pensions would ever actually the standards of the men and women who are reach 25 per cent. in the workplace in Australia over that six Question put: months? What if there has been a great growth. That the requests (Senator Neal’s) be agreed to. Senator Neal—They would also be even worse off. The committee divided. [10.20 a.m.] Senator NEWMAN—No, they would (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) certainly not. If there had been a great growth Ayes ...... 27 people would have not been brought up for Noes ...... 27 the six months. I think that you really are —— doing something pretty irresponsible in trying Majority ...... 0 to go down that route. —— AYES In addition, let me point out that we adopt- Allison, L. Bishop, M. ed the general approach proposed by the Bourne, V. Brown, B. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7279

AYES that Labor is supporting this legislation. That Campbell, G. Collins, R. L. said, we do have some significant concerns Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. about some of the provisions. Firstly, the bill Cooney, B. Denman, K. J. * Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. is not strong enough in some areas and is Hogg, J. Kernot, C. clearly inappropriate in others, and I will be Lees, M. H. Mackay, S. addressing these issues in the committee stage Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. with a series of amendments to attempt to Murphy, S. M. Murray, A. improve the legislation. Neal, B. J. Ray, R. F. Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. The opposition believes it is hypocritical in Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. the extreme for the government to be bringing Woodley, J. forward this legislation concerned with budget NOES honesty. This is the government that has Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. conducted one of the most dishonest budget Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. policies in the history of this country. This is Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. Crane, W. Ellison, C. the government that has invented the notion Ferguson, A. B. Gibson, B. F. of core and non-core promises—core and non- Heffernan, W. * Herron, J. core honesty. This is the government that has Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. significantly reduced the amount of informa- Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. tion in the budget papers. For example, in the Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. first Costello budget the complete details of McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. all the specific purpose payments to the states Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. and territories were completely excluded from Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. budget paper No. 3 so there was less informa- Watson, J. O. W. tion provided to the public and interested PAIRS shareholders, not more. Thankfully, scrutiny Bolkus, N. Minchin, N. H. by the opposition ensured that the proper Carr, K. Troeth, J. information was included in the 1997 budget Collins, J. M. A. Hill, R. M. papers. Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. Evans, C. V. Tierney, J. How can the government credibly begin to Faulkner, J. P. Ferris, J. talk about budget honesty when, in last year’s Lundy, K. Alston, R. K. R. budget, they broke, at a minimum, $15 billion O’Brien, K. W. K. Vanstone, A. E. worth of promises? Let me run through some Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. of these. The ABC: the coalition made a * denotes teller commitment that ‘we will maintain existing Question so resolved in the negative, levels of Commonwealth funding to the subject to reqests. ABC’—that promise was broken before the 1996 budget and it now represents a $209 Bill, as amended, agreed to. million cut over four years. Child care: the Bill reported with amendments and re- coalition ‘has no plans whatever to change the quests; report adopted. operational subsidy to the community based CHARTER OF BUDGET HONESTY long day care sector’—the 1996 budget BILL 1996 abolished operational subsidies for community based long day care, which will increase fees Second Reading by at least $14 per child per week. Debate resumed from 12 February, on motion by Senator Ian Campbell: Health: ‘none of the coalition’s health policy initiatives will entail cuts in funding That this bill be now read a second time. for public hospitals’—the 1996 budget con- (Quorum formed) tained extensive reductions in funding to Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy public hospitals through a combination of cuts Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) to financial assistance grants to the states and (10.25 a.m.)—At the outset I wish to state cuts to hospital funding grants totalling 7280 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 around $800 million over four years. Labour to universities has also been broken in terms market programs: the coalition ‘will maintain of operating grants which were cut before the expenditure on labour market programs in real budget by $623 million over four years. terms’—the 1996 budget cut these programs Additionally, universities will suffer reduc- by $1.8 billion over four years. tions in other funding that will mean that the Older Australians: the coalition ‘will main- total amount to be cut from universities will tain all current Commonwealth concessions come to over $2 billion over four years. for older Australians’. What has happened to This legislation should have been referred the Commonwealth dental health program? It to the Joint Committee of Public Accounts in ceased on 31 December 1996. This program accordance with a previous recommendation, provided basic and emergency dental care recommendation 19 in report No. 341, that benefits to health card and Commonwealth any fiscal reporting bill such as this bill seniors card holders. Research and develop- should be referred to the JCPA subsequent to ment: the coalition ‘will maintain support for its tabling. The government ignored this R&D through the 150 per cent tax concess- recommendation when the legislation was ion’—the coalition praised R&D syndication introduced. The shadow Treasurer attempted before the election but R&D syndication was to refer the bill to the JCPA, but was defeated abolished before the 1996 budget; the tax by the government. concession rate was reduced in the 1996 budget to 125 per cent. Accordingly, to ensure some level of close scrutiny, the Senate has referred the bill to the Regional development: the coalition ‘will JCPA. Unfortunately, the reporting time maintain regional development funding of imposed on the reference to the JCPA was too over $150 million over four years’—the short—a point made by the chair, Mr whole program was abolished before the 1996 Somlyay, in his forward to report No. 341. So budget. States and territories: the coalition only a cursory examination of the bill by the ‘will provide a fixed share of Commonwealth JCPA was possible. Nevertheless, the JCPA revenue to the states and territories in a way did point out some salient points about this which is revenue neutral and which would bill, one of which is that this so-called charter guarantee current services’—a promise broken is non-enforceable. Subclause 3(ii) of the bill at the June Premiers Conference when finan- specifically states that the bill is not judicially cial assistance grants were cut by $1.5 billion enforceable. So this trend of non-binding over three years and specific purpose pay- regulation by the government continues. ments were cut by three per cent annually; the 1997 Premiers Conference confirmed this The other prominent non-binding regulatory broken promise. initiative of this government is the code of Taxation: ‘there will be no new taxes and conduct of the Prime Minister (Mr Howard). no increases in existing taxes under a coali- We know that it is not enforced unless the tion government’—this promise has been opposition actually enforces it. We know that broken on many occasions. For example, the the Prime Minister only lives up to his code 1996 budget contained the Medicare levy when we find out that someone has breached surcharge of one per cent for some taxpayers it and we bring it to public attention. without private health insurance, and the Senator Murray—Or a whistleblower. infamous superannuation contributions sur- charge tax of up to 15 per cent. Senator SHERRY—Yes; I agree. Any pretence that this legislation is creating new Senator Kemp—Infamous! Have you read enforceable standards of disclosure and hence the Australian? better conduct of fiscal policy is completely Senator SHERRY—Calm down, Senator false as the bill ensures that no enforcement Kemp, you will hear a lot more about the is possible. So this legislation is more appear- super tax in the next year; that will become ances than substance. Nevertheless, the evident. On universities, the promise to measure is worth support as long as its short- maintain the level of Commonwealth funding comings are acknowledged and addressed. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7281

Before discussing some of the flaws in the being at the discretion of the Treasurer. The legislation, I will turn to the actual proposals government has agreed to this only in respect in the bill. Basically, the bill seeks to build of the pre-election statement, not the budget upon the general fiscal disclosure regime or the mid-year review. By contrast, New developed under Labor, with some further Zealand requires certification of the economic reporting requirements partly based on the forecasts by relevant bureaucrats for all parts model operating in New Zealand. of the budget cycle. Why is the Treasurer (Mr It is crucial to understand that this legisla- Costello) not prepared to submit himself to tion is basically codifying the practice of full the same levels of honesty as required in New disclosure established by the previous Labor Zealand? government. Labor supports this bill in princi- This proposal is in stark contrast to Mr ple, however we have very serious reserva- Costello’s practice whilst in opposition. He tions about a number of proposals in it. I will asked the then Treasurer that the 1995-96 return to discuss these aspects later in my economic forecasts in the 1995-96 budget be remarks and in the committee stage. The certified by the Secretary to the Treasury as major components of the fiscal and economic being prepared without political interference. disclosure regime are, firstly, comprehensive This was duly done in writing. As usual for budget documentation and information which the coalition, there is one standard in opposi- outline the government’s fiscal and economic tion and a completely different one in govern- strategy and, secondly, updating this informa- ment. There is no equivalent provision in this tion with a mid-year review process and a bill to bind the Treasurer to undertake the final budget outcome statement subsequent to practice that he required the Labor Treasurer the end of the financial year. to undertake. Why is there this inconsistency? In addition, the bill proposes, firstly, a five- Why won’t the Treasurer subject himself to year inter-generational report which will the standards that the former Labor Treasurer assess the long-term sustainability of current did? policies, especially in the context of expected The second area of the bill that I wish to demographic changes. Secondly, it proposes mention is that of fiscal principles. The Joint a pre-election fiscal and economic report to be Committee of Public Accounts, the JCPA, has prepared by senior economic bureaucrats and, considered the issue of fiscal principles and thirdly, a prescriptive regime on the costing in report No. 341, paragraph 3.224, it stated: of policy commitments by government agen- However, the Committee does not see a need to cies during an election campaign. The fiscal formulate binding statutory principles of fiscal strategy followed by the government is to be responsibility. In any case, such fiscal principles based on principles of so-called sound fiscal would be so imprecise and so wide open to inter- management, which are contained in clause 5 pretation that there seemed little point prescribing of the bill. As you would expect, these are them in legislation. The Committee is also wary of broad motherhood statements which are the idea that there are enduring fiscal principles. meaningless in the context of actually formu- That is, this parliament’s expert financial lating a budget. committee has said that these principles are meaningless. Whilst we do not oppose these I will now turn to some of Labor’s more provisions, we note that the insertion of these broad concerns about this legislation. With principles into the legislation is simply win- respect to economic forecasts, the bill pro- dow dressing; it will have no practical effect. vides, in some respects, for even less ac- countability than that recommended by the Apart from their generality, the principles government’s own Commission of Audit on of sound fiscal management are seriously the question of the charter. For example, the deficient in terms of micro-economic manage- commission recommended making the eco- ment, with their singular focus being on nomic forecasts in the budget, the mid-year financial outcomes. They make no allowance review and the pre-election report the respon- for employment goals, income growth, pro- sibility of economic bureaucrats instead of ductivity targets, the income distribution 7282 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 policies of the government or a myriad of The no new taxes pledge has been broken other important goals of economic policy. repeatedly with tariffs being imposed on Perhaps the worst example of meaningless- hundreds of items previously free of tax. The ness is principle D, which binds the govern- superannuation tax is clearly a new tax. ment to maintain the integrity of the tax Families face increased pharmaceutical costs, system. We know this government has no increased child-care costs and increased state intention of doing that. For example, the taxation due to the cuts in grants to the states. Treasurer (Mr Costello) announced, by way Students face crippling HECS debts and of press release, in the 1996 budget that the repayment schedules. The aged will face daily government will not be proceeding with fees for nursing homes and may have to sell significant anti-avoidance legislation foreshad- their house to pay an up-front fee. Labour owed by Labor concerning alienation of market programs have been savagely cut. personal services income and the avoidance Industry policy has been ignored as export of the PAYE provisions. Those provisions assistance and other incentives have been cut. were to be aimed squarely at arrangements I would like to refer to Labor’s record. The undermining the integrity of the personal proposed reporting regime builds on Labor’s income tax base, which the tax office con- introduction of much more open and transpar- firmed in estimates last year to be worth ent budget processes. For example, we intro- hundreds of millions of dollars per annum. duced the publication of three-year forward So, by definition, the Treasurer has already estimates of outlays and revenue, the publica- breached his own principles. But, of course, tion of an annual tax expenditure statement, it does not matter if the principles are the massive improvement in the information breached because, as I have already observed, provided in the budget papers and the publi- there are no penalties for non-compliance with cation of financial impact statements within the bill. So these are the tough new rules, all explanatory material for new legislation. which the government has already broken, for Despite the rhetoric of the coalition, Labor which there is no penalty for contravention. has the best record of reform of budgetary One possible way to strengthen these processes and fiscal disclosure of any provisions would be for the tax office and Commonwealth government. The excellent Treasury to make independent annual state- record of the previous government in this ments concerning threats to the integrity of regard was alluded to in evidence before the the tax system and for the Treasurer to be JCPA hearing. For example, Professor Mark judged against action to deal with these Robinson stated: threats. I will be addressing this issue in more No legislation can compel fiscal responsibility . . . detail during the committee stage. The key The most positive view of the Bill is that it is issues here, obviously, are resourcing for the merely the latest in a long series of incremental tax office and the adequacy of existing legis- improvements in fiscal reporting requirements. lation to protect the tax base, both of which This is a fair view of this legislation. It are squarely within the responsibility of the sounds impressive to those not fully acquaint- Treasurer. ed with the minutia of budget policy, but it I will now make a few points about the really delivers very little in concrete terms government’s record. The first point to make beyond what has already become established on this bill is the utter farce of the govern- practice under Labor. ment’s stance on the question of budget dis- Indeed, I note again that the government is closure and transparency. The long list of not as interested in budget honesty as it government budget broken promises last year professes. Last year, it omitted significant make nonsense of any claim to budgetary information previously provided by Labor, honesty. The government has literally broken including the comprehensive report of the billions of dollars worth of budgetary under- proposed specific purpose payments to the takings which were made prior to the last states, which is normally contained in Budget election. Paper No. 3. This caused difficulties for states Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7283 in the preparation of their own budgets and of opposition policy can only be undertaken severely disadvantaged members of the public at the discretion of the Prime Minister. This and other stakeholders interested in Common- is unbalanced and clearly advantages the wealth-state financial issues. incumbent government. Only costings of The coalition also raises the canard of asset previously announced policies is allowed— sales in their own justified assault on Labor’s that is, policy decisions would have to be integrity by claiming that we fiddled the made on the basis of incomplete information books with regard to accounting for asset and be announced. The pre-election report sales. Nothing could be further from the truth. requirement also appears to be in need of Labor always followed the appropriate rules refinement, for example, by requiring the and disclosed underlying as well as headline report to be released earlier than the specified results. 10 days. Despite its rhetoric, the government has So whilst the opposition does not oppose included significant assets, including property this legislation in principle, we are wary of its sales of around $1 billion and the recently effectiveness and are also concerned about the deferred sale of the telecommunications fairness of some of its provisions. It should spectrum, in the so-called underlying budget have been more carefully considered by the bottom line even though it vigorously criti- JCPA. However, this was stymied by the cised Labor on its similar practice with regard government. I conclude my remarks by to the issue of asset sales. I think we can also foreshadowing now that the opposition will be recall the one-third sale of Telstra—the moving a number of amendments to improve process of which is continuing at the mo- the workings of the bill and to improve the ment—and the diversion of a significant transparency of the budget process. proportion of the sale of that asset, effec- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) tively, into recurrent expenditure, vis-a-vis the (10.44 a.m.)—The Treasurer (Mr Costello) is environment fund and the reduction of ex- to be congratulated on bringing the Charter of penditure in the environment by a figure of Budget Honesty Bill 1996forward. This $½ billion in other areas of the budget. If you legislation is welcomed by the Australian can redefine, through the sale of an asset, Democrats as it does represent an essential expenditure into the environment as a capital, reform: it aims to improve fiscal policy you can redefine any part of an asset sale outcomes by providing a framework for the proceeds as any part of recurrent expenditure. conduct of government fiscal policy. The In respect to other information, this suppos- Australian Democrats have pushed for reforms edly honest government continues to refuse to of this kind for a very long time, as political provide, among other things, forecasts of history has indicated that no party has had the national saving—notwithstanding the state of capacity to tell the fiscal truth to the elector- centrality of savings to its entire macro- ate because of the failure to have them objec- economic strategy. Why won’t you provide tively costed. this key information to the Australian people? In the 1982 budget, an election budget, the Why won’t you provide your forecasts of the then Treasurer, Mr Howard, forecast a surplus rate of unemployment in future years to the of $230 million, which blew out to a deficit Australian people? Why won’t you publish of $4,473 million. The post-election revelation the economic forecasts of the Reserve Bank, of the budget deterioration allowed the new as was promised before the election? The Labor government to junk virtually all their answer to these is obviously that the govern- election promises. Since then that practice has ment is embarrassed by the future forecasts of become pretty much a recurring picture. things like the levels of employment and Governments have deliberately painted a unemployment, the level of national savings rosier than truth picture of their finances, and so forth. which only seems to be corrected after elec- The pre-election costings regime is serious- tions. Thus, in 1992, Paul Keating produced ly deficient in a number of respects. Costings his now infamous One Nation forecasts, 7284 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 which claimed that the deficit would repair agency, Access Economics, says that next itself. On the back of this, he and Dr Hewson year’s budget will be over $4 billion ahead. went into the 1993 election campaign with the Fiscal reporting, while it might seem bor- most outlandish and unfunded tax cut promis- ing, is absolutely essential to an open and es. accountable budget process. Once again, I The Democrats said at the time that the tax record the Democrats’ belief that the govern- cuts were not funded and were not fiscally ment is to be congratulated on recognising responsible. Democrats leader Senator Kernot that and bringing the bill forward. moved in the Senate to cancel the cuts on the All this manipulation of figures over the grounds of fiscal responsibility. But the past 15 years has resulted in a massive disrup- coalition joined with Labor to vote in the $4 tion of government service delivery, billions billion of tax cuts which they both knew were of dollars of broken promises, unfunded not funded. Three years later the coalition had promises being made and deceit on a massive the gall to gloat over the ‘Beazley black scale, undermining public confidence in the hole’. If they had voted with the Democrats electoral process, in politicians’ probity and to stop an unfunded $4 billion in tax cuts, major mistakes in fiscal policy which have there would not have been a black hole; it affected national economic performance. To would have been more like a black divot, to combat this, in 1996, Senator Kernot, in her use golfing terminology. charter for reform, called for far more open- Over the last four years, fiscal reporting ness and accountability in fiscal reporting. continued to be a very political process. The This bill does go some of the way towards 1995 budget included a claimed ‘headline’ achieving that. In the committee stage we will surplus of $718 million. The real picture was be pushing amendments to make it go further. an underlying deficit of $7.2 billion, a point The bill makes the government and the which Senator Kernot tried to make as clear Treasury responsible for reporting to parlia- as possible through trying to set up a Senate ment specified information about fiscal inquiry into the matter. Again, the coalition strategy, the current economic and fiscal joined with Labor to defeat the Democrats’ situation and the outlook over the medium proposal. Why? Because they wanted to rely and long terms. It specifies principles of fiscal on Labor’s ridiculously rosy economic fore- policy that the government is to consider but casts to build up their unfunded and not necessarily to implement when developing unaffordable election promises—$7 billion of its budgets. The principal effects of the them. legislation will be: to introduce greater ac- With the change of government, we had the countability and transparency in matters; to now familiar display of the new government tilt the balance of fiscal decision making junking most of their election promises after away from the short-term economic and a shock-horror revelation about the black hole political considerations that have dominated they had helped create. Ignoring the fact that the past and instead focus towards strategic the black hole was always an exaggeration and long-term fiscal objectives; and to pro- and was mostly accounted for in the 1996 vide the electorate with an accurate account budget papers anyway and that the actual of the government’s financial position and the budget deterioration was about $2 billion to pricing of its, as well as the opposition’s, $3 billion, the government used this deliber- policies—all laudable effects. ately misleading fiscal crisis to put in place The charter of budget honesty seeks to another round of vicious, socially and eco- achieve these objectives by requiring the nomically destructive budget cuts, many of government’s fiscal strategy to be based on which, particularly in business, labour market sound fiscal management and for the publica- and social justice areas, were frankly unneces- tion of regular reports setting out such fiscal sary. They were so unnecessary that last strategy. The bill also provides for the publi- year’s budget ended up $1.6 billion ahead of cation of an intergenerational report at least forecasts. The private sector assessment once every five years, which it is hoped will Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7285 encourage the development of long-term enforcement procedures or penalties—a sustainable and forward government policies. situation which clearly is unsatisfactory. This legislation puts in place a number of Voluntary codes, as we all know, are often important accountability mechanisms which ineffective. will help to ensure that members of the public In the current legislation there is no penalty are better informed about the government’s should a party fail to provide pre-election fiscal strategies when they go to the polls and reports and costings, and there is no penalty vote in federal elections. It will mean that the should a party breach its pre-election reports, electorate will be able to determine more costings or commitments. Yet, if you read accurately the effectiveness of government in anything concerning the electorate’s view of its management of financial affairs and the politicians, you will see that there is an utter costs and benefits of government policies. It need and desire for politicians to speak the will mean that the media, who are the prime truth and to keep their word. commentators in the area of election report- The only sanction currently available for ing, will be able to do some important and when a government ignores the need to independent analysis. Importantly, it will also comply with the provisions of the charter of be possible for voters to weigh the costs and budget honesty rests with the parliament. That benefits of government policies against those is an unsatisfactory situation given that the of the opposition and, if our proposed Demo- government of the day will have a majority in crat amendments get up, other minor parties. the parliament. By contrast, the New Zealand The Charter of Budget Honesty Bill is Fiscal Responsibility Act 1994 is binding on largely modelled upon the New Zealand the Crown. This means that, if the New Fiscal Responsibility Act 1994. Most of the Zealand government does not comply with the reports and analyses proposed in the charter requirements in the act, any citizen has of budget honesty appear to have been taken standing to initiate an action in the courts. In from the New Zealand act. The exceptions in our view, this demonstrates a serious commit- the Charter of Budget Honesty Bill are the ment to the provision of information and intergenerational report, the costing of elec- accountability of the government to the tion campaign promises and proposals and the electorate—a commitment which the Demo- fact that the Australian bill is not binding on crats and I were disappointed to see was not the Crown. present in the legislation before us. The first two of these provisions have no The remedy of enforcement where there is counterpart in the New Zealand legislation, a failure to act is denied Australian citizens in thus it could be argued that the charter of the charter bill, which effectively provides a budget honesty will provide a more compre- shield of immunity to any claim on public hensive array of fiscal and economic informa- interest grounds, preventing the disclosure of tion than does the New Zealand act. For this information. I believe that this limits the the Democrats commend the government. effectiveness of the charter as a mechanism to Nevertheless, the Democrats believe that one improve scrutiny, transparency and fiscal very important distinction between the New accountability. Therefore, our most important Zealand Fiscal Responsibility Act 1994 and amendment will be to make this act binding the charter of budget honesty is the fact that, on the Crown. contrary to New Zealand, no rights or obliga- The Australian Democrats propose to tions arise under the government legislation. amend the bill to provide that it be enforce- This may mean that the so-called advances of able against the Crown, as in the New Zea- the Australian legislation will be cancelled out land jurisdiction. In the absence of such an by this retrograde feature. amendment, I believe this legislation would Clause 3(2) of the bill states that the charter be inconsistent with its own purpose: on the of budget honesty is not judicially enforce- one hand, this bill is proclaimed to be an able. The charter is therefore much like a important contribution to the government’s code of conduct, which does not have any accountability efforts; on the other hand, the 7286 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 government cannot be held accountable to the may create will be subject to public criticism, provisions in this legislation. I urge the analysis and debate. government, the non-government parties and The charter of budget honesty should make the independents to consider this inconsisten- a useful contribution to improving policy cy and to support the Democrats’ amendment making, economic sustainability and public in this regard. accountability in the Australian jurisdiction. The Charter of Budget Honesty Bill puts in The pre-election and post-election reports, place better public sector accounting metho- along with the intergenerational reporting dologies. The current methods provide inad- requirements which will assess the long-term equate information. The fact that these sustainability of current government policies, methods have continued to be used points to as well as the accompanying reports by the the politically convenient nature of these secretaries of the departments of Treasury and provisions in that they provide very little Finance, will all contribute to fulfilling the information and consequently could be politi- aims of this legislation—to produce better cally expedient. financial outcomes. These poor public sector accounting metho- The bills information requirement should dologies are no longer satisfactory. The considerably improve the chances of framing electorate of today demands that they be fiscal policy debate over a longer term hori- provided with sufficient information which zon and with a concern for integrating sus- will enable them to make an informed vote. tainable fiscal policy within wider develop- This is the right of the elector, and indeed it ment strategies. In reviewing these strategies, is the responsibility of the government, the our Democrats amendments will specifically parliament and the Senate to provide the require social and environmental impacts to electorate with that information. be taken into account. I reaffirm the Demo- The government’s accounts must be taken crats’ approval and gratitude to the govern- to the next level of international best practice. ment for bringing this bill forward, and I hope Setting in place the requirement for pre- that our amendments will result in its con- budget opening of the books and a post- siderable strengthening. budget review of fiscal strategy will make Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) government more open, more transparent, (10.58 a.m.)—The Charter of Budget Honesty more accountable and more respected by the Bill focuses on introducing accountability electorate. along very narrow lines. It should be seen as The Democrats will also be moving amend- part of the government’s push for the domi- ments to bring about the consideration of nance of narrow definitions of ‘public inter- social and environmental implications and the est’ and ‘accountability’. My definition of effects of policy decisions. These are issues ‘economics’ is related to the origins of the which are vitally important to many members word, but I did not bring that information of the community and many future members with me. My understanding is that it is based of the community, and therefore form an on the domestic economy—that is, the way essential basis to their voting behaviour and people make decisions about how they live, to their lives in Australia. The provision of work and make ends meet. this kind of information will better assist the In the end, what we have now is the econ- electorate in their assessment of the govern- omy and in fact certain markets telling people ment and opposition parties’ policies. what to do rather than people simply using I will also be seeking the support of other the economy to meet their own needs. If you senators for the inclusion of a requirement like, this bill is the epitome of people being that any costing that is reported includes an told what to do by somebody else. indication of the assumptions, limitations and The use of fiscal accountability implies that qualifications of any modelling process used fiscal benchmarks are the most important or in the reports. This should ensure that any perhaps the only relevant criterion for judging biases or distortions which certain models policy. This implies certain values. It pre- Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7287 empts discussions and forces conclusions in with the environment, that should not necessa- certain directions. rily be counted as a plus or a growth. If we It is also reductionist in the extreme. That are depleting the resources at a greater level is, it pulls down the total of social decision than that at which we are getting any benefits making into discrete bundles. It basically from them, that should be included. We looks at short-term outlooks and indicates that should have an idea of what the reality is. We it somehow links with other elements within should not get to the situation which is the community. In fact, it does not. Pulling happening in the region now, where inappro- those things apart often gives you a very priate development has suddenly meant huge distorted view of the world. It blocks out the economic social and health costs because that links that are made between taxation decisions was not factored into the decision making and spending decisions with most other process. elements in society which many other people The social effects or social implications think are more important. could include the changes to distributional It ignores entirely the whole momentum equity—rich and poor regions—changes likely established internationally against such narrow to affect demographic factors, including rural economic accountability. Overseas there has urban populations, or whether urban neigh- been a great deal of discussion about widen- bourhoods are becoming less diverse, with a ing the accounts basis. It talks about integrat- population correlating to given incomes. They ing environmental and economic accounting could include the impacts on demand for and social impacts—longer term as well as employment and availability of diversity of the short term. In reality, if we reduce our employment opportunities; the impacts on productive base, all the accounting in the changes to employment in terms of the avail- world with a narrow economic base will not ability of jobs at various skill levels and the give us any form of truth in terms of out- likely results of change to the real value of comes. remuneration for a given amount of work of In the original models of the classical a certain type. They could include implica- economists, production came from the factors tions for women, youth, the ageing, migrants, of production: land, labour and capital— Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, fami- natural resources, human resources and lies or other social groups or classes. invested capital in the modern terminology. If you had that kind of information, you The national account structures have tended would realise why there are extra pressures to concentrate on fixed capital and labour, and more scapegoating when things go wrong. neglecting natural resources. In accounting Implications for the future sectors of industry terms, income is consumption which does not or services include implications for the bal- reduce future consumption possibilities. That ance between small and large businesses or is, it does not cut into the asset base. between Australian and foreign owned or A key aim in the national accounts is to controlled businesses. There are implications measure national income, particularly change for rural or urban people in relation to em- in national income. Adjusting the national ployment opportunities, cost of living and accounts to take account of resource use is a access to social, educational service or cultur- natural thing to do. Income which undercuts al resources. It is not much good if we have the resource and asset base which produces it good dollar figures but all of these things are is clearly not economically sustainable. That going backwards. is, if your production poisons and destroys the There are implications for the education or use of rivers, which are therefore part of the knowledge base of Australia’s society, includ- ecosystem and part of the rest of the produc- ing but not limited to implications in respect tion base, you are going backwards. of access to information or training or teach- If part of the national accounts indicates ing or the general state of intellectual culture. that we have spent a whole lot of money There are implications for culture, including trying to fix up the problems we have created the impact on the arts—visual, literary and 7288 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 performance—affordable access to training The environmental considerations should and venues, affordable access to events or include the implications for the retention of showings or the implications for development water quality and the abundance of and fostering of Australian culture and the groundwater resources, river and estuarine diversity of cultural or artistic productions in environments and the quality of near shore Australia. waters, including their ability to maintain There are implications for policies in existing ecological communities. They should respect of likely changes to factors which include implications in terms of exposure to affect the level of crime, poverty, homeless- damaging substances—that is, pollution in ness, disease, suicidal or psychological prob- both natural and predominantly human envi- lems. Once again, when we have dealt with ronments—and the implications of policies these issues, we tend to look at them in a which may result in changes of species reductionist sense, not in terms of how they distribution on a broad and/or long-term scale. have been affected by other changes, includ- This will be important in relation to climate ing budget changes. There are implications for change, and it includes things which may the ability of communities to effectively make result in the introduction of non-native species decisions concerning their lives. This is or the creation of effectively new species important. It includes the regulating of activi- through genetic modification or the creation ties or the setting of civil goals and acting of selective pressures favouring mutation. collectively to pursue them through establish- The environmental considerations should ing civil projects under their control, includ- include implications for widespread or long- ing the implications for the powers, structures, term changes of ecological systems—that is, responsibilities and ability to attain revenue the pollutants causing acid rain—global for various tiers of government. This all climate change and oceanic driftnetting. They sounds familiar, doesn’t it? should also include implications of policies The environmental considerations should likely to cause changes in non-Australian include such things as impacts of policy ecosystems, such as the support for the Nam measures on the diversity and integrity of Theun 2 dam and other Mekong-Sekong dam ecological systems, the impacts on natural projects or measures, including unsustainable abundance, the change in the stock of natural logging, that affect trade base in unsustainable wealth, the implications in relation to the exploitation of ecological systems in other conservation of wildlife, species and areas nations. protected as wilderness or unspoiled habitat Just recently, the Department of Foreign and sufficient buffer zones to maintain their Affairs and Trade was commissioned to write status as natural biomes. a report effectively saying that the world as The environmental considerations should we know it will end if Australia supports include the implication for the long-term greenhouse gas. But it was very narrow. We survival of species and assurances that there would like to say that the world is watching is enough habitat remaining to allow homes Australia in its pathetic attempts to try to use for breeding populations of size sufficient for reductionist methods not to link in environ- long-term genetic sustainability. They should mental, the social and the economic consider- include the implication in relation to the ations. Instead, what they are doing is simply provision of parks and areas where people going to certain industries and asking, ‘What have access to nature for recreational and is going to be the effect on you?’ without emotional reasons and for the nurture of the looking at the fact that there is clear evidence spirit now and in the foreseeable future. They that taking positive steps will create more should also include the implications for employment rather than less. conservation and sustainable use of natural What I am saying here is that Australia is economic resources, such as soil, forest, going in the wrong direction. I find this rangeland, fisheries and tourist venues in Charter of Budget Honesty Bill a problem areas of human activity. inasmuch as it is suggesting that what the Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7289 government is presenting as far as budget is then say we have to make governments stick honest; that what they are presenting—which to it. is a very narrow view of life—is actually My view is that the role of parliament and being honest to the Australian public about the role of the Senate is to present the views what is important, not just now but for the of the community as honestly as possible, but future. That is my problem. There should be to present the views of the community. I do honesty about what governments are doing not believe in the recent trend that some view and its effect on our ability to meet our needs of fiscal restraint should be used to beat in the future, not just in the narrow view of people over the head and to rip and tear at the the present. I think there is a problem with basic fundamentals of life of many people the way the whole thing has been constructed. who have no other means of survival—and In very brief terms, I will indicate that, in then use it as an excuse to further reduce general, I support the intent of the Democrat revenue from those people who can afford to amendments, although I have some problems provide it. I think there is a real problem with with the amendment to bind the Crown. I do the reductionist nature of this proposal. I have not think we should be potentially asking the a problem with jumping on the bandwagon of Senate to add on elements of environmental something which, in my view, is patently and social accounting but, first of all, saying dishonest. that we will bind the Crown no matter what Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.12 it is they say budget honesty is all about. But a.m.)—I want to add my support to this we will look at that further during the com- Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996 , con- mittee stage. I will also be looking at whether gratulate the government for bringing it or not the wording is appropriate in all of forward, congratulate the opposition for those amendments. tightening up on it and, in particular, con- I think Australia has to realise that we are gratulate the Democrats for expanding the in fact part of the planet. Australians are terms of reference to include social and being asked to decide on just about every environmental impacts. issue—social, environmental, educational, Policies are not just about money, elections aged care and so on—based on a narrow set are not just about money, governments and of figures which do not necessarily relate to parliaments are not just about money and the the real picture. They are basically being told electorate would expect us to be taking into that markets far away from them—speculative account all the other values that make up life, money markets in Europe and the United as Senator Margetts has just said. States—have more power than anyone else in I would like to foreshadow that in the Australia. committee stage I will be moving to amend I think we have to start realising we are the Democrat amendments so that all partici- part of the planet, not just part of a specula- pants in elections can avail themselves of tive money community. There are more and having their policies vetted. I think it should more people in the world saying that there are be expanded beyond Labor, Liberal and other values. It is about diversity and it is Democrats to all players, so that this assess- about people being able to meet their actual ment of policies and costing of policies of all needs, not just the needs of a narrow market parties can be available to the electorate. focus. It is time that we started looking at the I have a query about the compulsory com- actual accounts. ponent of the Democrats’ submission, in that Even a true economic rationalist would say if all policies are to be assessed on the basis you have to take those costs into consider- that the information must be provided 21 days ation before you are able to make a market before an election, on the face of it this would based decision. This is not even included in mean that policies could not be devised in the what the government is proposing and I do last three weeks before an election. All of us not think I want to sign my name to some- who have been involved in election cam- thing which, in my view, is dishonest and paigns know that the last three weeks is of 7290 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 itself a very prodigious generator of election to deliver and a lot more difficult to get policy. That said, this legislation cannot be through the Senate than we would have hoped seen as anything but a step in the right direc- had the Australian Labor Party government tion for the people who count most, and that under Mr Keating, Mr Willis and Mr Beazley, is the voters of Australia. as the finance minister, been telling the truth Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western to the Australian people prior to the last Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the election. Treasurer) (11.15 a.m.)—Thank you to all We inherited deficits run up by the previous senators who have contributed to the debate Labor government of $70 billion in five years. on the Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996. Most Australians are beginning to realise I thank Senator Brown for giving the govern- more and more, because there is more trans- ment a pat on the back for bringing this bill parency, particularly under this government, forward. It is an important part of the of the budget processes, that this money does government’s election commitments. The not grow on trees. You do not just write a commitment to a charter of budget honesty bottom line deficit of $10 billion and that was a cornerstone of our economic and fiscal suddenly appears out of the clouds or from a policies. When the truth about the state of the tree with money growing on it. It does not books became known shortly after the elec- magically get delivered from overseas and tion of the Howard government we resolved they do not want it paid back. When you to ensure that the sort of deceit that took spend $10 billion more than you receive in place in the 1996 election could never occur revenue you have to get it from somewhere. again. Our resolve was rebuilt to ensure that It is borrowed. Next year’s budget has to pay this legislation was put in place. We appreci- back some of the interest on that. Ultimately, ate the contributions of those who have when you run up $70 billion worth of cumu- indicated their support for it. lative deficits in a period of five years you The core of this legislation is to ensure that run up a massive interest bill. So before you the pre-election fiscal and economic outlook spend any money on schools, universities, is made available to the public, that the public health care or anything else you pay interest are fully aware of the state of the budget at on these loans. that time, and of forecasts for the fiscal and The legacy that Labor left to Australia in its economic outlook. The more that the people last five years alone was a $70 billion who vote in elections know about the state of Bankcard bill. It was called ‘the Beazley the economy and the state of the books, the bankcard’. It was a nice way to of trying to more informed judgment they are going to get the households of Australia to understand make about the credentials of the parties they what we did inherit. It is accurate to compare are going to vote for. It is wrong for someone it to a household using their Bankcard or their to go to a ballot box and cast a vote based on Visa card or borrowing money in other ways information which is patently incorrect. That to pay for the household grocery bill. It is no occurred at the last election. We were told different to any of us going down to Coles right through the election, right up to polling week after week, or Woolworths or wherever day, that the books were balanced and that, in we shop and saying, ‘Here is the Bankcard,’ the event that the Howard government was and never actually getting around to paying it elected, we would inherit a set of balanced off. At the end of a couple of years those of accounts. I think there was even some talk us who have run up Bankcard bills or Visa about a small surplus. card accounts know that sooner or later you It is now history that we inherited an annual have to pay it back and in the meantime you average budget deficit of in excess of $10 have to pay interest, and of course that hurts. billion. That has made the government’s job The coalition is determined to turn that in the first 18 months extremely difficult. We around. We are determined to have a balanced have had to deliver budgets which were a lot budget through the business cycle. We have more difficult to prepare, a lot more difficult brought down budgets which seek to deliver Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7291 a small surplus by next year. The latest So, Senator Sherry, please do not come into information is that we are on track to achieve this Senate and start talking about broken that, and we hope we do. I noticed in Senator promises. However, I do invite you to do so Sherry’s contribution to the debate, which I if first you have come into the Senate and watched over the TV monitor, that he was said, ‘I apologise for all of that; we made talking about this government’s dishonesty in some mistakes as a Labor government.’ Not breaking election promises. This government a single former minister of the previous Labor has delivered virtually all of its promises. government has walked into this or the other Until Senator Sherry or Mr Beazley or Mr place, or been on the Sunday program and Crean or former Senator Evans come into the said to the public of Australia, ‘By the way, parliament and say to the people that they are we might have actually made’— sorry for what they did to this country, I do Senator Conroy—What about Judi not think they will be taken seriously. They Moylan? certainly will not be taken seriously by this government. We have on the front bench of Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Judi Moylan the opposition people who said: ‘We are was not a minister in the previous govern- going to deliver l-a-w tax cuts. It was not ment, Senator Conroy. George Bush saying, ‘Read my lips’. It was Senator Conroy—She is in this one, the Prime Minister, a Labor Prime Minister, though. saying: ‘These tax cuts are law—l-a-w, law.’ Senator IAN CAMPBELL—She is, and a And they never got delivered. very good one. We had the Prime Minister prior to Mr Senator Conroy—Is she making any Keating, another Labor Prime Minister, Mr mistakes? Hawke, saying: ‘There will be no capital Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I do not think gains tax,’ and within months we had a so. I think she is doing a very, very good job. capital gains tax. He said, ‘There will be no I will tell you who made a mistake—Barrie increase in the Medicare levy.’ There was an Cassidy from the ABC. He sought to deliber- increase in the Medicare levy. We had a ately mislead the people of Australia. But that whole campaign in 1993—a campaign I will may be typical of the ABC. That may be why never forget—where we had we every single the ABC, as a current affairs channel, has minister, Labor minister, running around fallen so badly behind the commercial chan- saying: ‘You cannot put up indirect taxes. nels in TV current affairs. Indirect taxes are terrible for low income Senator Conroy—Are you going to make earners. We cannot have indirect taxes. We do a statement? not want a goods and services tax. We do not want increased taxes on goods.’ Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I just did. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Within days of getting re-elected, Mr (Senator Murphy)—Order! Senator Camp- Dawkins, the then Treasurer, another Labor bell, it probably would be helpful to the Treasurer and a colleague of Senator Sherry’s chamber if you addressed your remarks and Mr Beazley’s, brings in the biggest through the chair. increases in indirect taxes in Australian history—increases of 20 per cent in the prices Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I will indeed, of some groceries that low income earners Mr Acting Deputy President. Also, I will across Australia have to pay. There were ensure that I abide by the standing order in increases on soft drinks, biscuits, toothpaste, relation to relevance, even if I am taken way toothbrushes, toiletries, toilet paper and baby off the track by Senator Conroy, who seeks to products—increases of up to 20 per cent divert me from my course—I will not be across a whole range of goods which are used diverted again. by low income earners across this country, We will take those opposite seriously when after these people had run around the country a former minister of the previous Labor scaring them. government, particularly Senator Sherry, 7292 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 comes into the parliament or goes to the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Senator public of Australia and says, ‘Look, we George Campbell would not have voted for it; actually made a mistake,’—even if it is just he would have crossed the floor, I am sure. to admit to a small mistake, ‘Sorry, we got We believe that, for all of those reasons, we the recession wrong, we pulled the wrong can look forward to ensuring that those sorts lever,’ and makes an apology about that. of deceptions at election time do not continue. We have not had an apology for the reces- We note that there are a range of amendments sion yet. We have not had an apology for $70 to the bill. The government has had a look at billion worth of cumulative deficits which, the amendments that will come before us. We basically, will burden the next generation of will not be accepting or supporting any of Australians with massive interest repayments. them at this stage. We have not had an apology from the Labor We believe that the Democrat amendments Party yet for what they did to the Australian inappropriately broaden the bill to include economy and the fact that they put 400,000 matters that do not pertain to fiscal principles. people out of work in the recession of the I have heard the arguments of Senator early 1990s—they just wiped out 400,000 Margetts in relation to other principles that jobs. The net number of jobs in the Australian should be taken into account when looking at economy was reduced by nearly 400,000, and the nation’s balance sheet, and I think she it has taken years even to get back to those makes some important points about ensuring pre-recession employment figures. that environmental and other values are a part of the decision making process. But I do not When those opposite make an apology, we think that goes close to being a sensible way will then take seriously their talking about of achieving that objective within the charter this government and its record. We have of budget honesty legislation. We also believe delivered on our pre-election commitments. that the ALP amendments are inconsistent We are waiting for them finally to get their with the traditions of our system of govern- act into order and boldly go to the people of ment in Australia. Australia—just as I remember their doing in the 1990 election, saying to the Common- In conclusion, I reiterate that the bill sets wealth Bank employees, ‘We will not sell the out, in very clear terms, the government’s Commonwealth Bank.’ Mr Acting Deputy commitment to the charter of budget honesty. President, you will remember that campaign; I commend the bill to the Senate. I am sure you were there at some of those Question resolved in the affirmative. rallies. I saw the Commonwealth Bank em- ployees standing outside of the Common- Bill read a second time. wealth Bank head office in Forrest Place in In Committee Perth, saying, ‘Don’t vote for the Liberals, they’re going to sell the bank’ and representa- The bill. tives of Labor saying, ‘We’ll never sell it.’ Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Who was it who was going to roll in his (11.27 a.m.)—Madam Chair, I move item 1, grave? on revised sheet 664 before you: Senator O’Chee—Ben Chifley. (1) Clause 3, page 2 (lines 3 and 4), omit sub- clause (2), substitute: Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Ben Chifley (2) This Act binds the Crown in right of the was going to roll in his grave. What happens? Commonwealth. Within just days of the election, the Common- The existing clause in section 3, Charter of wealth Bank is on the block. And who voted Budget Honesty, states: for it? All those opposite. So let us just get a Nothing in the Charter of Budget Honesty creates little bit consistent, Senator Sherry. rights or duties that are enforceable in judicial or Senator O’Chee—Not your namesake; he other proceedings. wasn’t here. Our amendment, in contrast, states: Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7293

This Act binds the Crown in right of the Common- sion. The legislation avoids the risk of uncon- wealth. stitutionally restricting the executive power of This amendment really says: are you really the Commonwealth through a legislative serious as a government; are you really measure. By not setting targets which govern- prepared to put yourselves on the line about ments must meet, the bill makes provision for this matter? the executive to follow whatever fiscal strat- Mr Chairman, I draw your attention to the egy it deems necessary, without being fettered Bills Digest No. 85 from the parliamentary in any way by the legislature or the judiciary. information and research services. I must say I must emphasise at this point that I am not that, although probably others senators have, interested through this amendment in tying I have seldom had the opportunity to thank the government in any way to a particular the Parliamentary Library for the consistent fiscal target. I think that would be unwise. quality of the material they put before us to What I do seek to do is to ensure that the assist us. This document is yet another exam- government fulfils its obligations to report to ple of the very high standard observed by the the parliament under the charter and that, as people and institutions which serve the Sen- is consistent with the principles of accounta- ate. So I record my gratitude for that and bility in this bill, any person may seek to other past documents. enforce those obligations, should the govern- In my second reading address I spoke at ment fail to do so. length on this matter of enforceability. This The parliamentary library’s publication, Charter of Budget Honesty Bill provides that which I referred to earlier, specifically said: the charter of budget honesty does not create Hence the provisions in Sub-clause 3(2) of the Bill rights and duties which are enforceable in may be considered to be overly protective of the judicial or other proceedings. As a conse- Executive Government at the expense of Parliament quence, where there is a failure to publish the and the public, particularly as it extends to all reports to fiscal strategy required by the aspects of the Charter of Budget Honesty including its fiscal reporting requirements and pre-election charter, there would be no redress in the costings which do not impact on the discretion of courts of law or in administrative appeals the Executive Government in caretaker mode to run tribunals. the national economy. In the opinion of the Australian Demo- That is from page 9 of that document. On crats—and, indeed, of the New Zealand page 10, it goes on to say that the bill: government when they looked at their own . . . may be better served by building into the Bill equivalent act—this is not acceptable. It is the duty and right enforceable in judicial or other contrary to the very intention of the legisla- proceedings, for the publication of the reports, tion which, briefly, is to provide for much including pre-election reports and policy costings greater accountability of government and listed in the Charter of Budget Honesty. opposition in fiscal matters. A Treasury That is an independent view, and it is one submission to the JCPA—the joint parlia- with which I accord. mentary committee—inquiry into the whole As I stated in my speech on the second of government reporting and fiscal responsi- reading, the Democrats have a long history of bility legislation in 1995 also raised this calling treasurers and their representatives in point: that there is no legislative requirement the Senate to account for the inaccuracies— for the tabling of budget papers and that the which sometimes have been gross, as is content of the budget papers is the prerogative admitted by both major parties in finger- of the government of the day. pointing at each other—of the budget fore- The explanatory memorandum to the bill casts of past governments. If this is any offers no explanation as to why no enforce- indication of what can occur despite parlia- able rights or duties are created by the bill mentary scrutiny and despite the ballot box in despite the fact that the legislation which it is the past, it is certainly no recommendation for modelled on—New Zealand’s Fiscal Respon- being satisfied with a charter which is less sibility Act 1994—contains just such a provi- than enforceable. If no-one has clean hands 7294 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 and if the previous situation was such that country with a similar tradition to ours—New you could not enforce clean hands, the bill as Zealand—and it has been found to be appro- expressed will not allow clean hands to be priate, applicable and workable. I would kept, because it is not enforceable. It was not suggest to you that, based on the independent enforceable in the past, and it will not be analysis available to us through the parlia- enforceable in the future. To a large extent, mentary library and through precedent, this this fact—that the bill is not binding on the amendment should be accepted by the govern- Crown, in contrast to New Zealand’s bill—is ment parties, the non-government parties and its major weakness. It will, to some extent, the Independents in the Senate. I commend gut the very good intentions of the govern- the amendment to the Senate. ment in bringing forward the bill. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western In the second reading speech, the Treasurer Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the (Mr Costello) simply stated that the effect of Treasurer) (11.36 a.m.)—I thought I would the bill would be to enhance the accountabili- respond to Senator Murray’s contribution ty of the present Commonwealth government early in the debate. The government does, as as well as of future Commonwealth govern- Senator Murray has anticipated correctly, have ments. I submit to the Senate that, if this is some concerns with this. We believe that the true intention of the government, this under the Charter of Budget Honesty there legislation can only be strengthened by will be enormous political pressure to comply agreeing to this amendment. with the act. The bureaucracy will have to I expect some members of the Senate to comply with it, because it will be the law of respond to this amendment by saying that, the land. despite the lack of enforceable rights and Secondly, compliance will be encouraged duties, there is a sanction which rests with the by political and community debate about parliament and ultimately with the electorate. these issues and political and community I do not disagree that the parliament and debate on these issues will, as a result of the electorate do have sanctions. Their problem charter itself, be significantly enhanced. is that whoever they choose in government Senator Murray would have seen the debate has behaved in the same way. That is why that took place during the Western Australian they no longer respect the institutions of election, for example. These concepts of either the government or the opposition. budget honesty and getting the books opened Neither do they respect the politicians who at an early stage were quite a positive thing populate parliament and the Senate. If we can in the WA campaign. From my brief readings, introduce the New Zealand system whereby in South Australia similar things have occur- rights or duties are enforceable, we will go red where both governments have come out some way to reassuring the electorate that this very early, published the books and said, ‘We is not a Clayton’s bill; that accountability will will give you accurate costings on all of the genuinely be delivered. policies.’ It has put an enormous discipline on The crucial premise for parliamentary oppositions as well. The taxpayer is the scrutiny and accountability is information. If winner in the debate when you have the the government fails to provide pre- and post- books open because you cannot have the old budget statements and intergenerational way of having an auction at the election, reports, the parliament lacks the information where politicians who are bidding at the it needs to call the government to account. It auction are bidding with the taxpayers’ money is for this reason that I believe this amend- and they always end up paying. That is the ment is the most fundamental one we have great benefit of it. So the government does put. It is fundamental to the effective work- believe that debate will be enhanced by this ings of the legislation. legislative measure. This amendment of ours goes to the very Furthermore, there is a very strong reason heart of the problem of honesty and accounta- for worrying about the fact that the potential bility. It has been tried and tested in another for legal disputation could be counterproduc- Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7295 tive. Legal action could be taken in an elec- it would be action aimed at truncating politi- tion in a way that was purely motivated by cal debate. Presumably, if it were frivolous political purposes. I noted you said ‘any and without much basis, it would rebound on person’. I presume, under your definition, that the people who tried it. It is working in New when you said any person would have stand- Zealand; it should work here. In any event, if ing in these matters you meant that anyone it were the intention of the government of the who wanted to stop the production of these day to live up to this charter, they should documents or challenge the content of these have nothing to worry about. accounts would have standing before a court. Senator COOK (Western Australia) (11.41 I do not know that this has occurred in New a.m.)—I have just come late to this, but we Zealand and I am not personally familiar with are debating a bill for an act to provide for a the New Zealand provisions; I am sure Sena- charter of budget honesty. Clause 3 of that tor Kemp and others will have an intimate bill says: knowledge of the workings of the New (1) The Charter of Budget Honesty is set out in Zealand legislation. I know that those who Schedule 1. were closely associated with the production of the policy in this matter, including Senator (2) Nothing in the Charter of Budget Honesty creates rights or duties that are enforceable in Brian Gibson during our days in opposition, judicial or other proceedings. and who did travel to New Zealand looked at these matters very closely at the time. The The amendment before us is from Senator people who did put this policy together are Murray of the Australian Democrats. It aware of that experience. removes that last line about enforceability and submits in its place a new (2), which reads: I can foresee the abuse. Your amendment This Act binds the Crown in right of the Common- is very well intentioned—I have absolutely no wealth. doubt about that—but less well-intentioned The issue before the chamber is whether the people could abuse these provisions in a provisions of the Charter of Budget Honesty blatantly political way, in a counterproductive are enforceable or binding or whether they are way and in a way that is against the intent of not. The government, which has made a great this legislation, which is to get information play about this Charter of Budget Honesty, out there to the people of Australia, and to has a bill in which the provisions are not commentators and other economic analysts so enforceable; the issue for the Senate is wheth- that they can analyse these documents and er we make them enforceable. Speaking for help to inform the Australian people about the the opposition, we will vote for the Demo- state of fiscal affairs. For those reasons, which crats amendment to make them enforceable. I think are sound, we will be opposing the amendment. If you have a charter for budget honesty but you have a clause which makes it unenforce- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.40 able, what have you got? Basically you have a.m.)—I support this amendment. Senator an illusion of budget honesty, not a charter of Murray has given cogent reasons for it. Of it. Or, if you wanted to put it another way and course, you cannot get a better reason than a use the contemporary political lingo of this practice which has been shown to be working government, you have core honesty and non- elsewhere, which in this case is New Zealand. core honesty: issues that are important and I do not have the fears that Senator Campbell issues that you promise people you will carry has that litigious people will, in an election through but later deem not to be important campaign, take action for the sake of it. I do and do not carry through. It seems to me to not feel that the courts are going to be so be fundamental that, if you are going to set irresponsible as to take frivolous actions and yourself up in government and enact laws that turn them into election-stopping legal ma- require honest disclosure, there ought to be a noeuvres. If there were any effort to do that provision to make them reliable and enforce- the public would react badly against the able—not a hole that you could drive a coach people who were taking the action; after all, and four through that lets someone off the 7296 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 hook. Since this applies in an election con- know that you can legislate for honesty. What text, it may well let them off the hook after we are in fact doing is leaving it largely to the results are in, and the Abraham Lincoln the judgment of Treasury as to what is an observation that you can fool all of the people honest accounting system, and I do not think for some of the time will have occurred. So we have had much indication from Treasury the opposition will be supporting this amend- that they understand the wider issues involved ment. with the depletion of resources and the issues On the broad bill, the government have which are in fact important; not irrelevant but spoken quite a bit of breast-thumping, self- vital to whether or not we survive and vital to congratulatory rhetoric about how they are whether or not we are able to make a living going to straighten out the process by bring- in the future, not just in the present. If we ing forward this bill on the Charter of Budget bind the Crown to what I think is a further Honesty. What they have in fact done is just acceptance of a covert political agenda that this: they have encoded in legislation the economics rules okay and, more than that, practice that we in government followed. that speculative markets—that is, greed—rules They have really not brought anything new to okay, rather than look at what the total out- it; what they have done that is different is to comes are, not only are we not legislating for put it in a bill. That is not something that we honesty but we are actually legislating for a oppose. We support that concept, and we dishonest approach. support, and have practised when we were in One specific example that springs to mind government, a proper disclosure regime and is in relation to the sale of assets. We can a proper transparency of what the circum- always put down for this year, next year or stances are in a Commonwealth budget. This even for the next few years what the book is going to be continued, and it will be con- value will be for selling off a major public tinued through a bill. asset. But over time there are other implica- The opposition has some reservations about tions—there is a loss of revenue; there is the some of the provisions here, and we will deal loss of control that people have in their own with those when the opportunity for us to community; and the loss of accountability and move amendments arises. But, in so far as so on, which we are seeing the government this amendment is concerned, we think it is assisting by saying that industry can have a well wrought amendment. It is an amend- commercial-in-confidence protections, that it ment that actually gives some honesty to the does not have to keep people’s information title of the bill by requiring that this act does private and that, basically, it is only the bind the Crown, and it is therefore acceptable contracts that can be broken or renewed from to and supportable by us. I commend it to the time to time. committee. I think in that sense we are moving away Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) from honesty. We are actually moving to a (11.46 a.m.)—This is a very difficult issue in position where people know very little about some ways, because I do not believe you can how taxpayers’ money is spent, and I have a legislate for honesty. You can usually guaran- very strong feeling that, if we are binding the tee that when you want to portray someone Crown in this particular, illusory bill, we are who is wanting to do something shifty, like in fact binding us all to a pig in a poke. We a used-car salesperson, you talk about—I was will have the Telstra myth sanctified: what- going to say ‘honest John’, but I did not ever the Treasury is asked to come up with in really mean to put a specific name to that— terms of short-term outcomes—for instance, honest Joe’s used cars. You will often find with the sale of Telstra—is somehow con- that those people who wear that across their sidered to be sacrosanct in that we will form sleeves are using it as a smokescreen. our policies on what is a very narrow view. I am worried about whether, firstly, you can In my view, that fails to be honest. in fact legislate for honesty. You can poten- So, although I recognise that there is a tially legislate for accountability but I do not desire to look as if this parliament is forcing Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7297 the government to be honest, I come down on Question put: the other side by thinking that, if I agree to That the amendment (Senator Murray’s)be amendment No. 1, I would be approving of its agreed to. general intentions when I actually believe that we would be putting into legislation a funda- mental dishonesty. On that basis, I am unable The committee divided. [11.57 a.m.] to support it. (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) Ayes ...... 26 Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Noes ...... 28 Treasurer) (11.50 a.m.)—I have listened —— carefully to the remarks that senators have Majority ...... 2 made, and I appreciate them. I note that —— Senator Margetts will not be supporting this AYES amendment, perhaps for reasons that are Allison, L. Bishop, M. different from ours, but that is still welcomed. Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. In relation to Senator Cook’s comments, I Brown, B. Campbell, G. cannot allow one of them to go unremarked Collins, R. L. Conroy, S. * upon. This concerned the implication that, if Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. Labor had had their 14th year in government, Denman, K. J. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. all these things would have been done; that Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. we had to wait 13 years for sudden action in Lundy, K. Mackay, S. the 14th. A variant of this argument is that McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. this measure is doing what Labor has always Murray, A. Neal, B. J. done. Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. Woodley, J. Correct me if I am wrong, Senator Cook, NOES but I did not get hold of the release of the Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. pre-election economic and fiscal outlook Boswell, R. L. D. Calvert, P. H. report—maybe I missed that in the run-up to Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. the election. In fact, I thought the big issue Coonan, H. Crane, W. was that that was being hidden. If you can Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. correct me, I will be happy to acknowledge Gibson, B. F. Heffernan, W. the correction, but for you to get up in here Herron, J. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. and waffle on and suggest that we are putting Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. into effect what you were already doing is MacGibbon, D. J. Margetts, D. just a joke—it is a total and absolute joke. McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. * Parer, W. R. Senator Cook, can I see you after we finish Payne, M. A. Synon, K. M. this debate at a quarter to one so you can give Tambling, G. E. J. Watson, J. O. W. me a copy of this fundamental report, which, PAIRS you allege, puts into effect what you were Carr, K. Troeth, J. already doing? You cannot, of course, do that. Collins, J. M. A. Hill, R. M. This is one of our very important initiatives, Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. and we also have a very enhanced midyear Evans, C. V. Tierney, J. report compared, I think, with the five pages Faulkner, J. P. Ferris, J. or so that you dropped down from time to O’Brien, K. W. K. Vanstone, A. E. Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. time. We are not putting into effect what you Ray, R. F. Reid, M. E. were doing. One of the great stimuli for this Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. whole thing was the cover-up by the Labor Schacht, C. C. Minchin, N. H. Party, and that should never be forgotten; we * denotes teller will not forget it and the public will not forget it. Question so resolved in the negative. 7298 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Senator Brown that I would prefer if that (11.59 a.m.)—Madam Chairman—sorry, Mr were not moved cognately but subsequently, Chairman— because if our amendment goes down then, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- obviously, there is little chance of it succeed- tor MacGibbon)—If you didn’t read your ing. If our amendment were to succeed, speeches, you would not fall into that error, Senator Brown, I would foreshadow to you, Senator. to give you some time to perhaps consult with your office, that we would accept that amend- Senator MURRAY—Firstly, Mr Chairman, ment, but with the addition of the words ‘and I was not reading a speech, I was looking at also have federal parliamentary represent- the running sheet and, secondly, I had my ation’. head down. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Quite. The reason we do that is that we have been given figures that, since 1911, nearly 500 Senator MURRAY—May I say, with the minor parties have been created in this coun- greatest of respect, that I expect to be treated try. There are a great many minor parties with courtesy by the chair, because I always available at any one time. The chances of show the chair courtesy. Mr Chairman, I am surviving and, indeed, of getting federal referring to item No. 2 on running sheet No. representation are very limited. Because of 664 revised. I move: that, we do not think this approach, whilst (2) Schedule 1, clause 3, page 6 (after line 2), democratic and participative in the wider after the definition of Leader of the Opposi- sense, should at this stage be opened com- tion, insert: pletely. I foreshadow that for you, Senator minor party leader means the leader of any party Brown, so that you can consider your posi- with at least 5 representatives in the Parliament. tion. If the party has representatives in both Houses of the Parliament, the leader is the person nomi- The purpose of this clause is to include nated by the party’s representatives in the minor parties in the costing of election com- Parliament to be the leader for the purposes of mitments. It is consistent with a principle of this Act. democracy that parties be able to fully partici- This amendment refers to our desire to in- pate in the process. In this way, minor parties clude parties in excess of five persons in the may provide the electorate with the costings parliamentary structure to be included in this of alternative election commitments to those process. The Democrats have not done that of the major parties. This provides the elector- out of a desire to exclude parliamentary ate with information and, once again, is an representatives from the process of the Chart- important step towards informing the elector- er of Budget Honesty Bill 1996. We have ate so that they can vote on the basis of done so on the basis of a precedent whereby accurate information. party status is determined in this place at a limit of five. We have assumed that five You would be aware, Mr Chairman, in your persons would be therefore acceptable here as capacity as a politician that the Democrats are a mechanism for the identification of minor a minor party; we achieve 11 per cent of the parties. Our amendment, item No. 2 on sched- vote. However, we do not have 11 per cent of ule 664, revised, reads: the resources, 11 per cent of the donations or 11 per cent of the funding that is available to . . . minor party leader means the leader of any party with at least 5 representatives in the political parties overall. Access to this kind of Parliament. If the party has representatives in process would be of extreme assistance to both Houses of the Parliament, the leader is the parties such as ours. On the basis that it is our person nominated by the party’s representatives belief that political parties so recognised in in the Parliament to be the leader for the pur- the parliamentary process should be able to poses of this Act. participate in the charter of budget honesty, I note that Senator Brown has foreshadowed and on the basis that it contributes to a better an amendment, on sheet No. 688, amending electoral process, I commend my amendment our own amendment. I should indicate to to the Senate. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7299

Senator COOK (Western Australia) (12.05 two members of the Greens, although they are p.m.)—I am mindful of the fact that the two separate parties under the heading previous amendment before this chamber has Greens—Greens (WA) and Australian Greens, just been lost. That was an amendment which as I understand it. If this amendment were required that the provisions of this bill in fact carried, the Greens could not have any of be enforceable. The name of this bill is the their election promises costed by Treasury Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996. Perhaps within the meaning of this bill. now that the provisions of this bill are not enforceable, we could rename it as the option- I also note that the Greens have foreshad- al charter of budget honesty, or the almost owed an amendment that would have a wider charter of budget honesty, because no longer ranging impact. If the Greens’ amendment, is it necessary to comply with the terms of it which is foreshadowed but not currently if you do not wish. With the removal of before us, were carried then the impact would enforceability, I am not quite sure what we be that any registered political party in Aus- have got here or what significance the govern- tralia could have their costings made by ment thinks this bill will have, given the Treasury. I must say, speaking for the opposi- optional nature it now assumes. tion, that I would like to hear a little more argument and a little more justification from I do note, for the record, that the govern- both the Democrats and the Greens about ment used its numbers in order to create the their amendments before I could rule on what optional character that this bill now assumes. our position response to them would be. Here they are, on one side of the chamber, bruiting aloud about how they are going to But, for guidance sake, let me say that I clean up the act of government in Australia think it is unreasonable for any political party, and make things more honest but, when you whether or not it has members of parliament look at the fine print, what have they done? at all, to access the provisions of this bill and In the fine print, they have made it optional. tie up the resources of Treasury in costing So you can be optionally honest under this whatever promises they make. Let me give bill that the government has before us. you an example. I think in the last ACT However, the amendment that has just been election, and it may have been in the last moved by the Democrats is an amendment federal election, there was a party registered that we in the opposition have given some from which fielded candidates contested the attention to. This amendment is about what is election as the ‘Sun Dried Tomato Party’. a political party that can have its election This was obviously a joke party; it was not promises costed by Treasury and disclosed to serious. They seized the election campaign as electors before an election. The Democrat an opportunity to poke fun at the political amendment would have the effect of making system and enjoy themselves. the Democrats a party within the meaning of One could imagine that they would wish to this bill— extend the joke and develop, shall I say, idiot Senator Murray—And the National Party. policies, submit them to Treasury for costing Senator COOK—And the National Party. and have a great guffaw at public expense I take that worthwhile interjection. They are, when the figures came out. I do not think that in effect, a minor party in their own right. is desirable. I do not mind them running in an They only assume a larger presence in the election, but I think dignifying them with political life of Australia because they are in anything greater than what they are is not a coalition with the Liberal Party. But they are responsible expenditure of public funds. an independent party and they could have My feeling is that there ought to be some their promises independently costed by Treas- sort of cut-off line. If you have members in ury. the parliament, then you are serious, you have But the cut-off line in the Democrats’ a voting support in the community to put you amendment is for a party of at least five here, and you have some sort of claim to say, members. I note that in this chamber there are ‘We are a serious organisation. We’re making 7300 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 serious promises. We would like those prom- which did not have parliamentary representa- ises costed.’ tion—because there are so many of them and So there may well be a case to lower the because some of them, frankly, might be threshold figure in the Democrats’ amendment regarded as somewhat light-hearted about from five to one and thus pick up the Inde- election prospects—we would certainly have pendents and the Greens who are in this no objection to extending this process and chamber. But my feeling at this point is not facility to all parliamentary members within to go any further than that. I note there is no both the House of Representatives and the amendment, before us or foreshadowed, that Senate. But, because that is not yet before us, would enable that to occur. I would not mind I would prefer that my amendment be dealt hearing from the minor parties on this matter with first. I will foreshadow that if Senator a little longer before I finally say where the Brown did amend his amendment as I have opposition stands. That is the direction in proposed, the Democrats would support it. which we tilt at this point in the debate. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.14 Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) p.m.)—Firstly, I agree with Senator Murray’s (12.11 p.m.)—As the mover of the motion, I proposition that we take his amendment first will take brief precedence over Senator and then my amendment to that amendment Brown. It is my assumption—and perhaps if it is successful. I will be voting for his when the government responds to this amend- amendment, which would enable the Demo- ment they can confirm it—Senator Cook, that crats’ election policies to be assessed for the if this bill becomes an act and if, for instance, benefit of the electorate. the Labor Party moves back into government, My amendment extends to other parties the coalition has a parting of the ways and the which have representation in this place. As Liberal Party becomes the official opposition Senator Cook said, that is the Greens (WA), and the National Party becomes a minor the Australian Greens and the two independ- party, the minor party, the National Party, ent senators, Senator Harradine and Senator would be excluded from the process of elec- Colston, who, if I am not wrong, represent tion costing—that, in fact, they only have registered parties themselves. It does apply to access to this costing for as long as they are people in the House of Representatives, as either in coalition in government or in coali- Senator Murray says, who also represent tion in opposition. registered political parties. I think that is a very important point. I do I would prefer that it was open. I would believe the National Party interests have to be prefer that anybody standing for election considered in this matter. It cannot be auto- could have their policies scrutinised in this matically assumed that they will always be in fashion. Let us face it, the cost of policies coalition with the Liberal Party. If that were will lead to some interest and publicity at the so, then they would become a merged party. time of the election campaigns. The fact is that they have a distinct identity. That is the first important point to make. As somebody who entered parliament during the Franklin River campaign as an The second important point I make is that Independent and who has seen the growth of we have accepted in our amendment the the Tasmanian Greens and then the Australian precedent that five parliamentary members is Greens into a fully-fledged national entity, the cut-off point to achieve party status. As working in parallel with the Greens (WA), I you know, that party status results in the am well aware of the disadvantage to people provision of additional staff and facilities, who want to get into parliament but who do which assist parties in the exercise of their not have parliamentary representation. It is parliamentary duties. enormous. Estimates at the last election were However, what I have said is that, with that if you had a seat in parliament, although regard to Senator Brown’s foreshadowed election campaigns cannot be run out of amendment No. 1, if Senator Brown were offices, it was tantamount to a $50,000 advan- willing to exclude parties and independents tage. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7301

The media takes much more notice of ly rushed forward with the press, grabbed our people who are in parliament than people who copies and debate then ensued. are not in parliament, unless they are some I do not think that we have those alternative great celebrity or for some other reason. It budgets now. That is a pity. In the light of means that perfectly legitimate aspirants to this new accountability and new exposure, we the parliament who do not share the views of hope that the Democrats will be bringing the bigger political parties are at an enormous down their alternative budget in the coming disadvantage. That is why I believe that years so that we can see very clearly what the anybody who is bringing forward policies at Democrats are proposing. election time should be able to put those to Treasury to have them scrutinised, to have The point I am making is that the Democrat them evaluated and to have them put before policies, at least from my experience of the public for what they are. previous years, are very comprehensive and quite huge. I believe that the costings of those However, like Treasury, I can count and I policies would tie up huge resources in the hear the weight of the numbers here, and I department. Again, it is a matter of judgment know that my amendment as it stands is not just how helpful and practical that would be. going to survive. Therefore, I indicate to Given the tasks that the department already Senator Cook and Senator Murray that if has as a result of the measures in this budget, Senator Murray’s amendment gets up to allow if we extend that further to the minor parties the Democrats and the National Party, along and to the Greens, we will impose a very with Labor and Liberal, to have their policies substantial burden. vetted in this fashion, I will accept Senator I know that Senator Brown is very produc- Murray’s amendment. I am looking at having tive. I do not always agree with him; in fact, specific words which would carry out the I do not often agree with him. If the truth be intent of his amendment incorporated into my known, I rarely agree with them. I have no amendment so that we can extend the poten- doubt that Senator Brown will be producing tial for scrutiny of election promises beyond a very comprehensive set of policies— the bigger parties to the Greens and to the Senator Brown—We always do. Independents in this house and in another place—in other words, to anybody who has Senator KEMP—He always does. Senator shown electoral support in the past or who Brown is one member of this esteemed has had somebody represent them as a party chamber, but the amount of work that the in this parliament. department could well be committed to do could be similar for the very major parties in Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant this chamber. I think there is a practical issue Treasurer) (12.18 p.m.)—We will not be here which means that at some level the line supporting this measure. It is always a matter has to be drawn. Therefore, we will be oppos- of judgment how far one goes. We think that ing this amendment. What we are doing in what we have done in this charter is a very this charter of budget honesty is bringing in big step forward. I refer to the issue of allow- new improved accountability, ensuring that ing minor parties to have costings done. the public is properly informed about the These are often very extensive policies. In policies of the parties which are likely to win fact, from time to time, in yesteryear, I used government and ensuring that that can be to do a bit of costing of the Democrat policies done in a practical manner. myself. There was the very famous alternative The extension that the Democrats propose, budget of Sid Spindler, which the Democrats followed by Senator Brown’s amendment, used to bring down in the old days. Both simply is not practical. It will tie up huge sides of the chamber used to wait very an- resources in the department. With due respect, xiously to see what the Democrat alternative ultimately it is unlikely that in the foreseeable budget would propose. When former Senator future the Democrats or the Greens will be Spindler brought that budget down, we eager- forming a government in this country. I do 7302 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 not want to be accused by Senator Murray— want to have more choice. But that choice he is eager to speak to this—of being arro- will not be enhanced by restricting measures gant, but the value of those costings clearly like this to the two old parties. It must be is less than the public knowing what the expanded. major parties are seeking to do. We do not I note from the tone of the contribution of believe that what you are proposing is practi- the Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp, that cal. It will tie up significant public resources, these Treasury assessments can be seen as a and it will not be supported by the govern- positive thing for parties facing election, that ment. they will be wanting to get them assessed. It Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) is a selective thing: you make your choice, (12.23 p.m.)—I remind the Assistant Treasur- put your policy forward and have it assessed. er (Senator Kemp) that we put this question I think the parties are going to want to have to him concerning the National Party: if the that done with policies they reckon can stand National Party is not in coalition with the the scrutiny, so they come out looking pretty Liberal Party, will the National Party be good to the electorate. If that is the case, why excluded from this process? should that advantage not be given to the Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Australian Democrats, the Greens or other Treasurer) (12.23 p.m.)—Senator Murray, we entities standing for election? note your concern for the National Party, but Senator Murray—Or the National Party. funnily enough National Party senators have Senator BROWN—Or the National Party, not pressed this matter on me. for that matter. Senator Kemp said that the Senator Cook—They were checking their National Party have not approached him; travel allowances. maybe they do not want to have their policies Senator KEMP—I would not raise travel put forward for scrutiny. I imagine the time allowances today if I were you, Senator Cook will come when they will. of Cook’s Tours. I would be a bit careful While the Senate is not going to accept my about it. I will not get diverted on that issue, proposal that all parties facing the Australian although I may well wish to. electorate should be able to have their policies Senator Cook—I will table my letter from scrutinised in this fashion, I think that at least the auditor—I am all clear. the notion of democracy, the evaluation that Senator KEMP—Very good, Senator; I every vote is equal and the right of everybody guess you hope for your sake that that ends to vote for other parties and to vote away there. Let us not get diverted. The terms in from the government of the day ought to at the bill before us relate to the Prime Minister least enable parties which have a presence in and the Leader of the Opposition. They do the parliament to have their policies scruti- not refer specifically to the National Party or nised in this fashion. Liberal Party. It is a hypothetical case. It is I can understand the argument that Senator not a matter that the National Party or indeed Kemp is putting forward, but on democratic the Liberal Party are worried about. We terms it does not stand the rigour of analysis. believe this is a sensible position in the way It weights the odds in favour of the govern- we have defined it in the bill, and the posi- ment and the opposition of the day and tions are well understood. against the interests of the electorate, which Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.25 wants to know whether the policies put p.m.)—I want to counter the idea that a forward by other parties are dinkum and will measure like this should be the prerogative of stand scrutiny as well. the old parties. Democracy in Australia is in Senator COOK (Western Australia) (12.28 a very robust and flexible situation. The two- p.m.)—I must say that we are moving into a party system is breaking down and new degree of farce. We have not yet hit high parties are appearing right across the spec- farce, but we are in partial farce at this stage. trum. I think most Australians like that and I say that because we have just had the Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7303 government use its numbers to vote down a Senator Kemp—Are you saying it should requirement in this Charter of Budget Honesty be compulsory? Because you have not pro- Bill that there be enforceability. So now this posed that. bill is optional—we can have optional hon- esty. Also, we now have had a very well Senator COOK—I voted a moment ago, crafted question from the Australian Demo- Minister—and you voted against me and won crats to the government about the National because you had more numbers than I did—to Party. The answer is that the Prime Minister make the provisions of this bill enforceable. and the Leader of the Opposition refer their The way that you cast your vote makes them party promises for costing by Treasury. But, optional. as the bill is now set, the National Party in You have asked me where we stand. We fact is excluded from doing so. stand for what we supported in the previous vote from the Democrats—that is, enforce- We all know, particularly us in the Labor ability. I am also saying—and let this be very Party, that in an election the Liberal Party clear on the record—that it is not good appeals to a certain part of the Australian enough for just the promises of the Liberal electorate, and the National Party—the former Party and the Labor Party to be costed, Country Party—appeals to another set of the because we do not know what the true cost of Australian electorate. But in government they a coalition promise is if the National Party is govern as one party, as a coalition. If the excluded. We do not know what the costs of Prime Minister chooses, he would refer only the Democrats’ promises might be. We do not the policies of his party, as the majority know what the costs of the Greens’ promises coalition partner, for costing. Therefore, the might be. We do not know what the costs of extravagant promises that are often made by the promises of Senator Colston might be if the National Party to rural Australia would he runs as the Queensland First Party in the escape costing and scrutiny. next election. Senator Murray—Or Senator Tambling. If this bill proposes that the true cost of the promises made by political parties at an Senator COOK—I am coming to him. We election be honestly disclosed, then all the do not know what the costs of the promises political parties should be costed. It should of Senator Harradine, who runs as the not be just one party, the Liberal Party, and Harradine Group in Tasmania, might be. And another party, the Labor Party, because then we do not know what the costs of the promis- you could not judge what the true cost of a es of the Country Liberal Party in the North- coalition—between the Liberal Party and the ern Territory might be. National Party—might be to the budget. The thing about truth is that you have to have it absolutely; you cannot have it partial- This is now farcical because you are saying, ly. If you only have half the truth, you do not ‘It suits us to exclude our junior coalition actually have the truth. If you only know partner.’ I have to say to the government that what the Liberals and the Labor Party say, the you have embarked on this course, you have electors of Australia do not know what the thumped your chest about a new order of choices are across the board. I am sufficient government accountability to the people—all of a democrat to say that they ought to. laudable things and good things to say—but, when one turns to the fine print of what you Given the views now put by the Democrats are proposing, it collapses like a house of on this motion that they have moved and the cards. You can drive a coach-and-four views put by Senator Brown on behalf of the through this. This becomes a charter for Greens, I am of the view that he will collapse budget dishonesty if you do not have the full his amendment that he foreshadowed in accounting of all the promises made by the relation to parties with members in parlia- major parties and by all the parties in the ment. That is what I understood Senator parliament. Brown to say. I note for the record that he 7304 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 nodded his head in an affirmative fashion Senator COOK—I revert back to the when I asked him that question. Abraham Lincoln thing: you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the Senator Brown—That’s right. people all of the time but not all of the people Senator COOK—Because of that undertak- all of the time. ing, we will vote for the Democrat amend- Senator Kemp—And that’s what happened ment and for the amendment that Senator to you. Brown has foreshadowed in a new form. Senator COOK—Your time will come. I Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant do think the amendment before the chamber Treasurer) (12.33 p.m.)—It is disappointing ought to be supported in the knowledge that that Senator Cook seems to have missed the— the Greens’ amendment will follow it. Senator Cook—Persuade me. Don’t insult Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant me; persuade me. Treasurer) (12.35 p.m.)—Senator Cook has Senator KEMP—Senator Cook, are you just argued both sides of the track. In his first arguing that the costings of all policies should contribution he was worried that the National be compulsory? Is that what you are saying? Party or some other party may not put for- Senator COOK (Western Australia) (12.33 ward their policies for costing. Then I asked p.m.)—The way this bill is structured is that him whether it was compulsory. He agreed it is for the Leader of the Opposition to that the Labor Party did not believe it should submit his policy to the Prime Minister, who be compulsory costing. Then he argued that, may then refer it to Treasury in whole or in if they did not put forward their policies, they part as he chooses. We have put an amend- would bear an electoral cost. If you look at ment down because we do not think that the the Hansard and the logic of what you have Prime Minister should decide what part of an just argued— opposition’s promises should be costed by Senator Cook—No, read your bill. Treasury. I do not care who the Prime Senator KEMP—I am trying to analyse the Minister is or who the Treasurer is. arguments that you have put forward in the The structure of the bill that the minister last five minutes. You have argued both sides has put accretes the power to the Prime of the track. Minister. What I am saying, in supporting the amendment from the Democrats, is that the Senator Cook—No. Democrats should have the option, the Greens Senator KEMP—Yes, you have. You have should have the option, Senator Colston, argued on the one hand that a minor party Senator Harradine and Senator Tambling may not put forward their policies and there- should have the option of submitting their fore will escape scrutiny. That was of concern promises and having them costed. In truth, to you. You raised a total furphy in relation while it is optional, I think the electors of to the National Party. You stood up and Australia will want to see what the parties are argued that first up. promising and what the costs of those promis- Then I said, ‘Do you want to make it es are. compulsory for all policies to be costed?’ and While it is an optional action by each party you said no. Then you said that, if they do to make the submission, the practical reality not put up their policies, they will pay an is that, if a party does not submit its claims to electoral cost. The first argument is that they be costed, voters in Australia will say, ‘What will get an electoral benefit by not putting have they got to hide? How do we really forward their policies. The second argument know how much they are going to cost?’ I do is that they will bear an electoral cost. Your not think you need a compulsory provision in logic is all over the place. It is a big problem there. The electors can decide that. The if you do not argue from principle, Senator electors of Australia are pretty wise people. Cook. Senator Kemp—I’ll say! Senator Cook—Read your own bill. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7305

Senator KEMP—I am talking about the The fact of the matter is that you have got arguments that you have put forward. All I to think in terms of practical public policy, can say is that you have argued the contrary and it is not practical public policy that one case within the space of about five minutes individual in the federal parliament should be and, frankly, it shows the problem you face tying up vast amounts of resources in a if you do not argue from principle. If you are particularly difficult and pressured period— trying to score some very short-term political the same amount of resources as the alterna- points on this, I have to tell you that your tive government. It is simply not good, performance here has not been particularly practical policy. edifying—particularly as you were an almost- Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) distinguished minister in a very non-distin- (12.40 p.m.)—We can see that there are guished government. merits in allowing some access to Treasury resources to cost out proposals, especially What we are saying here is that it matters before an election, which will have a budget not if you have one person, say, a Green from implication. But one of the problems I have Tasmania—Senator Brown may be misdirect- is that I belong to a minor party in the Senate ed but he is productive in the sense of pro- which has an ideological viewpoint in relation ducing vast amounts of paper and policies; his to parliamentary representatives and the researchers do that for him. The amount of terminology of leadership. time that Treasury may spend in this pre- election period on doing an analysis of Sena- We believe that parliamentary representa- tor Brown’s policies—one person in this tives are functional positions and I, for in- parliament—may well be exactly the amount stance, as a representative of the Greens of time that would be required to be spent on (WA), am an authorised representative of the the Labor Party’s policies. Greens (WA) within the parliamentary pro- cess. In that sense, it is a functional rather That is simply crazy and I am astonished than a leadership role. that the Labor Party would think that is fair. We may—by virtue of the fact that we are Senator Murray has a slightly better case to here and have access to the information for put. I do not agree with it, but Senator making decisions—make decisions before Murray may argue that there are seven Demo- many other people make them or know about crats in this parliament—I guess it is no issues. However, I feel that, in order to coincidence that the cut-off point was five. support amendments in relation to leaders of We would never accuse the Democrats of minor parties and not exclude parties like the self-interest, Senator Murray, let me tell you. Greens (WA), it could be either ‘minor party leaders’ or at least ‘or authorised represent- I think what is being put forward here lacks atives’. Otherwise you have got a group of commonsense, it will tie up huge resources people who, because of their own beliefs in and, if Senator Brown puts forward policies non-hierarchical structures, are excluded from which require exactly the same amount of the system. work as the Labor Party requires on the costing of its policies, I believe that is not a Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.42 productive use of public resources. In the p.m.)—We Greens have some flow of thought election context and the pressure to get which you do not always see elsewhere in the material out, it is certainly not, and I am very chamber. I have asked for the wording of the surprised that the Labor Party would support amendment coming down the line to be such this. I am very surprised and I suggest that that it will take into account, at least to some you should have a further reflection on it and degree, Senator Margetts’s concern. consult with your own party. It may not be in Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant my lifetime, but Labor may get back into Treasurer) (12.43 p.m.)—I think it shows you government some day. I hope, for the sake of the difficulties we are having with this al- our great nation, that is not true but there may ready—the pretty pass we have already come be an occasion. to. I do not know what the Labor Party view 7306 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 is of ‘an authorised representative’, or how defence proffered by Mr Crean on Senator you define that. That is going to be difficult. Sherry’s behalf was: ‘He doesn’t own a That will test the parliamentary draftsmen, I house’. can tell you. When Mr Costello picked up on this theme What we are seeing is legislation simply and dubbed the honourable senator ‘the made on the run without proper regard to the bedouin of Burnie’ there was a flush of moral realities. I always enjoyed costing the Demo- outrage and the honourable senator turned crat policies and it used to lead to a lot of himself from his usual rose complexion to a vigorous debate in this chamber. In an ideal deep red sherry. The senator, whilst in this world, you can argue that the proper costing flustered state, issued a media release claim- of those policies would make sense because ing Mr Costello was wrong and that he, in it may well expose what I would see as a fact, did have a home. Senator Sherry tells us fiscally irresponsible approach to public Mr Costello’s claim was false: ‘A simple policy. check of the phone book of north-west Tas- mania would have alerted him to my having In reality, we are dealing with the hothouse a home in Burnie’, Senator Sherry told us. of an election period and departments will be For the record, I checked the telephone book under pressure to produce fair and compre- for the north-west coast. Only your office hensive material. We are now saying that we number is listed, Senator Sherry, who I note may have all of the Democrat policies which is in the chamber. have to be costed, which are extensive, or used to be extensive; I am not sure whether So begs the question: why did Senator you are still heading down that track but there Sherry not correct the public record after Mr are very extensive policies from the Demo- Crean made, to use the senator’s words, the crats. Equally extensive and comprehensive false claim that he didn’t own a house? policies will be put forward by both Greens. Senator Sherry, I submit, kept the guilty All of this will absorb huge amounts of silence hoping the issues would pass. Why departmental resources and I think a judgment did Mr Crean give false information to defend has to be made. Senator Sherry? Has Senator Sherry told Mr Crean that he was wrong? Why did Mr Crean Consideration interrupted; progress reported. say ‘Senator Sherry doesn’t own a house’? The Register of Senators’ Interests discloses MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST that Senator Sherry does have a home office. A title search reveals that he owns 3 Hale St, Travel Allowances Burnie. Given that this information is on the Senator ABETZ (Tasmania) (12.45 p.m.)— public record, why did Mr Crean say ‘Senator In recent times the issue of travel allowances Sherry doesn’t own a house’? Is it because has been given a public airing. In particular, Senator Sherry brags about the fact he doesn’t the Labor Party have sought to air some have a house? Is it because everyone in the parliamentary dirty linen. Honourable senators Labor Party knows that the home bit is a would understand why I was surprised when sham, and Mr Crean accidentally let the cat a constituent rang me the other day to advise out of the bag? I am sure, if questioned, the that the deputy Labor leader in the Senate, honourable member for Hotham will use his Nick Sherry, was not into airing dirty linen; rival for the top job’s well-known excuse: ‘It he was into airing the whole mattress. I asked seemed like a good idea at the time’. my constituent: ‘What on earth could you For the record, Senator Sherry, in fact, possibly mean?’ But allow me to explain. owns two houses, including one in Canberra. Last weekend the member for Hotham (Mr On 27 September in the Advocate newspaper, Crean), who is trying to establish his leader- Senators Sherry and Denman advertised ship credentials, was asked to explain why ‘Labor senators’ office’ at 3 Hale St, Burnie. Senator Sherry claimed such an awe inspiring- I have a copy of that advertisement in case ly huge figure for travel allowance. The sole any honourable senator wishes to see it. The Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7307 advertisement proudly displays the office similar practice, egging the attacks on, when telephone number, the same one in the phone you yourself are engaged in the same activity. book. The lesson for the opposition is that people Coming back to my constituent, he was full have a severe distaste for gross hypocrisy. If of consternation that the two senators were you hypocritically attack someone, your own sharing this two- storey terrace house office. details will be disclosed by feelings of justifi- ‘Well’, the constituent gasped, ‘but they are able righteous indignation. Senator Sherry, airing a double mattress on the verandah of through you, Mr Acting Deputy President, the the first floor’. I quickly assured him that people of Canberra and of Opossum Bay are Senator Denman would adhere to a strictly reviled by Labor’s two-faced approach on this downstairs only policy. The constituent kindly issue. photographed the office home and sent the Whilst acknowledging that Senator Sherry photographs to me. Given that the bottom is technically allowed to stay at his mum’s floor is office space, the living area must be place, I want to visit the extent of Senator minuscule. I have photographs of the home Sherry’s travel allowance claims. I must say office, which clearly show the double mattress that Senator Sherry’s chairmanship of the being aired on the first floor verandah, and a superannuation committee was very unevent- side shot of the home office. ful, except for one thing. You have guessed A side shot of the house reveals not only it: his TA claims. In all, he claimed some 62 the lack of depth to the house, confirming that days. I have to say that his successor was it is very small, but that Senator Sherry likes somewhat more moderate in his claims. But the company of used caryards—which are Senator Sherry will say that he was busy. proudly displayed next to the side of Senator Fine, then let us see where he was busy. Sherry’s house. He undoubtedly feels at home Guess what? Although there was only one with them. One can understand that there day of official hearing of his committee in would be an affinity between them. But no, Hobart, Senator Sherry claimed for 10 nights I am wrong. He doesn’t feel at home. That is in Hobart. Undoubtedly, he was furiously why he does not bother even putting the bed taking counsel from all the doyens of the inside his home—because he does not stay superannuation industry who live in Hobart. there. That is why he has been giving the However, his problem is that he was contin- travel allowance such a touch along—because ually criticised for his lack of consultation. if he did stay at Burnie it might stand to Ten days would allow you to talk with every reason that the bed would be indoors. The agent and, for that matter, every policy holder public display of a bed on the verandah did in Hobart and still have time to spare to talk not convince the citizens of Burnie that you to your hairdresser about superannuation. Yet, actually live in Burnie, Senator Sherry. the senator remains so blissfully ignorant I do not criticise Senator Sherry for owning about superannuation matters. I wonder if the two houses. In fact, I applaud him, and well honourable senator claimed travel allowance done. But what I cannot applaud is his guilty for his consultations in the barber’s chair as silence when coalition MPs are attacked for well. staying overnight in family homes. For the But the ludicrous nature of the claims is record, Senator Sherry claimed 420 days that he spent more time allegedly on superan- travel allowance in Canberra between 22 nuation in Hobart than he did in Perth, Adel- March 1993 to 24 February 1997. That equals aide and Brisbane combined—combined. Are about $58,800. My colleague the member for you really going to tell the people of Austral- Braddon (Mr Miles) has publicly stated how ia that there is a little hotbed of superannua- Senator Sherry claimed, while staying at his tion knowledge in Hobart which far exceeds mother’s, a total of $43,320 for the equivalent the combined knowledge and wisdom on period. Let me say on the record: the rules superannuation that resides in Perth, Adelaide allow this to occur. But it is a bit rich attack- and Brisbane? The ring of truth, credibility, ing a coalition member for engaging in a is absent when the figures are analysed. No 7308 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 city in Australia other than Sydney got such honestly trying to suggest to us that Senator an overwhelming dose of consultation on Collins told you to spend such a vast amount superannuation matters as did Hobart. of your time on primary industry matters only But this love affair with Hobart continued in Tasmania, I have to say to you that I doubt when Senator Sherry became the Parlia- it, and I also doubt that Senator Collins would mentary Secretary to the Minister for Primary come into this chamber and say, ‘I told Industries and Energy. He enjoyed that posi- Senator Sherry to spend so much time in tion between 24 March 1993 and 11 March Tasmania on these issues.’ 1996. Senator Sherry, during that time, When we came to government, Mr Acting claimed for 652 days of travel allowance. Of Deputy President, as you well know, the those, 315 were in Canberra and 125 were in issues of the aquaculture industry were not Hobart. Altogether for Tasmania he claimed fixed; the forest industry was not fixed. We 160 days; that is, 47.5 per cent, or nearly half, fixed those within the first 18 months of our of his non-Canberra claims. government. If there was a common theme With that degree of consultation in Tasman- going around amongst the stakeholders, it was ia, Senator Sherry should have understood his that Senator Sherry had not consulted or portfolio responsibilities; unfortunately, he did listened to them. We did; we fixed up the not. With that amount of time, he would have problems. I submit that Senator Sherry has a had the time to not only speak with every lot of explaining to do, in connection with his stakeholder in the forestry and aquaculture claims for travel allowance, as to why he had industry; he also would have had the time to this fascinating love for Tasmania. speak to every tree, fish, cow and sheep in Mr Acting Deputy President Calvert, as you Tasmania—and, of course, we know that he come from Tasmania, as do I, you would find did not devote himself to his duties for which it very rich that Senator Sherry has the he claimed his parliamentary travel allowance. audacity from time to time to make allega- Yesterday Senator Sherry told this chamber, tions that the north-west coast of Tasmania is ‘I spend the majority of my time in Burnie, not adequately serviced. He has this pretence, and I travel as required.’ For the record, this absolute pretence, of having a home in Senator Sherry was parliamentary secretary, Burnie which has now been exploded away, as I said before, between 24 March 1993 and absolutely shot away—not by us, but by Mr 11 March 1996—let us say about 1,080 days. Crean, the member for Hotham. Mr Crean Yet we know he claimed 652 days for travel unwittingly let the cat out of the bag by allowance; that is, 60 per cent of his time. stating what everybody in this place knows, I submit that Senator Sherry has misled the what everybody in the ALP knows: that Senate. At best, he could have only stayed in Senator Sherry does not count Burnie as his Burnie for 40 per cent of the time. But for home. Why else would Mr Crean have said to Senator Sherry, shadow spokesman for fi- the Australian people, ‘Senator Sherry does nance and superannuation, 40 per cent is a not own a home.’ majority. No wonder we had a $10.3 billion Senator Sherry, if everybody in your party deficit under Labor. knew that you were based in Burnie, that you Further, Senator Sherry told us, ‘Anything lived in Burnie, why would it be that Mr my minister, Bob Collins, asked me to do for Crean would say, ‘He doesn’t own a home, him, I did, no matter what it required.’ It is and that explains his huge travel allowance’? now obvious: Senator Collins told him, ‘Stay The only defence offered by Mr Crean was at your mums’s or stay in Canberra; the vast that Senator Sherry does not own a home. majority of the time stay out of the rest of Senator Sherry on his own admission says, Australia, hide yourself in Tasmania or in ‘That assertion is wrong’—he is nodding his your office in Canberra; we do not want to head in agreement. Therefore, the only de- see you out in the electorate amongst the fence proffered on your part, Senator Sherry, mainlander constituency because you will by Mr Crean has been knocked out, knocked undoubtedly lose votes for us.’ But if you are away and dispelled as an untruth. As a result Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7309 you have been left with no defence whatso- (Mr Bruce Scott), who in the first nine ever for your high travel allowance claims. months of government claimed 80 per cent of I am pleased that Senator Sherry is the next nights on TA? This from a minister who speaker in this debate. I look forward to his aspires to promotion in the cabinet. This is explanation, as, I am sure, the vast majority the minister who, in a statement to the House of Australians do as well. yesterday, said that all of his claims were made in good faith and within the spirit of the Travel Allowances guidelines. This from a minister who then Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy went on later in the day to water down even Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (1.00 that tepid defence and to say that his travel p.m.)—If there is one truism in politics it is claims were free of deliberate and systematic that if you are dishing it out you have to be error. Yet this is the minister who will not prepared to cop it. So, with three ministers answer specific allegations, the minister who gone, two highly placed prime ministerial waffles on in general terms. I, on the other staffers sacked and public servants being hand, am willing to respond to any specific stood down or resigning, it is no surprise to allegation of abuse. You specify the day and me that I am the target of retaliation. What I I will specify the nature of my claim. find pathetic is the insubstantial and blatant But the coalition campaign did not stop lying that is going on at this time. there. Senator Kemp, in answer to a question The first step in the coalition campaign was on charter travel, found himself unable to to circulate an anonymous scandal sheet to comprehend the question, as usual, let alone the press gallery last Friday. Just to prove that answer it. So he directed an attack on my TA they cannot get their facts right, they alleged claims. Like his coalition colleagues, Senator that I live in Devonport. Well, I have got Kemp made no specific allegations. When news for my mate Simon Crean and my challenged by way of a supplementary ques- enemy Mr Peter Costello—I own a home and tion to detail even one claim for TA which he live in Burnie. The coalition got it wrong. believed to be incorrect, he too merely waf- This scandal sheet went on to ask why I was fled for a minute as he usually does and then on the Gold Coast so frequently—note that sat down. they have dropped this line now—but I have been able to readily produce evidence that I Again, when on the noting of answers he was on official business on each occasion. I was given five minutes to raise even one can hardly be held responsible for the fact specific allegation against me, he failed to do that many of these primary industry bodies so. But you have to say that the reactionary use the Gold Coast as a venue for their member for Braddon, Mr Miles, unlike his conferences. No wonder no journalist is coalition colleagues, has at least made one interested in that line any more. specific allegation. In a press release issued yesterday, he alleges that I have claimed TA Mr Costello, in answer to a question on at the wrong rate. I assert to the Senate that Monday which had nothing to do with travel each one of my Hobart TA claims meets the allowance, said: requirements as specified in the Department There is one name that is talked about . . . when it of Administrative Services guidelines. comes to claiming travel allowances in this parlia- ment: Senator Nick Sherry. Mr Miles went on to query whether I stayed He goes on to detail my 1995 claims. Leaving at Opossum Bay. He claims that Opossum aside the fact that, in order to manipulate the Bay is not part of Hobart. The DAS guide- figures he uses a calendar year reference lines set rates for capital city claims. The rather than a financial year reference, as is guidelines state: usual, it is true that in that year I claimed TA Capital city is as defined (in relation to its boundar- on 66 per cent of nights. ies) by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Yet what does Mr Costello say about his The Australian Bureau of Statistics definition colleague the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs states that: 7310 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

The greater Hobart division comprises the local Burnie and see my office in Burnie. They are government areas of Hobart, Glenorchy, Clarence both in the same terraced house. and Brighton and the predominantly urban parts of Kingborough, New Norfolk and Sorell. The divi- The reason I established an additional sion is Tasmania’s principal, regional and adminis- Burnie office, at personal expense, was in trative focus. order to improve the service requirements on In addition, in response to a query from my the north-west coast of Tasmania. My elector- office, the Department of Administrative al office is in Devonport. Unfortunately, on Services confirmed some 3½ years ago that the coast, people from Burnie will not travel Opossum Bay, in the city of Clarence, was to Devonport and vice versa. So I made a within the Hobart travel allowance claim area. commitment to open, at personal expense, an To argue any differently is to argue that electoral office in Burnie, at 3 Hale Street. It Parramatta is not part of Sydney, Dandenong is a property I own and it is staffed by one of is not part of Melbourne and Port Adelaide is my three electoral officers. not part of Adelaide. That is not dissimilar to what Mr Miles and Senator Watson have done. Mr Miles and Mr Miles challenges me to answer the Senator Watson have rented a property in allegations in his press release. I have done so Devonport and share staff arrangements. I here and I am pleased to acknowledge that note Mr Miles’s wife works for Senator Senator Abetz, in reference to this matter, Watson. But I am not going to get into that acknowledges ‘that the rules allow this to sort of dirt; I am not going to get into that occur’. Thank you, Senator Abetz. sort of area. I am going to stick to the facts. This is a government that said there was no Let us stick to the facts. What I have done in case to answer in the Colston matter. This is Burnie is fundamentally no different from a Prime Minister (Mr Howard) who said that what Senator Watson and Mr Miles have done the former Minister for Transport and Region- on the north-west coast of Tasmania to im- al Development (Mr Sharp) had his immense prove service to the electorate. confidence and full support. This is a govern- I enjoy the north-west coast of Tasmania. ment in which the former Minister for Science I love it. Unfortunately, there is a used car and Technology (Mr Peter McGauran) thrice yard next to my office and my home in asserted that his claims were valid. On the Burnie and, unfortunately, there is a great big basis of evidence to the contrary, they have woodchip pile in front of it. When I go out all gone. onto the verandah of my living quarters, I do see that big woodchip pile. I will now return to Senator Abetz’s photo- graphic evidence of my home in Burnie, to With respect to the phone number, I have set the record straight and make it very clear. here the north-west coast phone directory. It I purchased the double story terrace in Burnie says: Senator Nick Sherry, 3 Hale Street, and approximately 3½ years ago. I know it well the phone number is 64319986. I also have because I spent approximately a month another number, which is not published, redecorating it from top to bottom. In the 64319809. bottom part, in the front two rooms, at per- Senator Abetz—It’s not in the phone book. sonal expense I locate a private electoral Senator SHERRY—But Senator Abetz, my office. I live in the living room, the bedroom home at 3 Hale Street, where I have estab- and the kitchens at the back of that terrace lished a second electorate office, is clearly property. published and the phone number is clearly I say to Senator Eric Abetz, I say to all the published. members of the government, I say to the press As I said earlier, I issue an open invitation gallery: when I return to Burnie on Friday to to all in the media and all in the government go to the Burnie show and spend the next to come and visit this weekend at Burnie. week or two on the north-west coast, you are They can walk through my 3 Hale Street all welcome to come and visit my home in residence. They can see that there is a bed Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7311 there, there is a TV, all my books, all my dising the environment to fill a few fossil fuel personal clothes—most of my personal pos- pockets is not the sort of mentality which will sessions are at 3 Hale Street, Burnie. I make secure the planet for future generations, and an open challenge: come and see. this is where Senator Parer has a problem. I know that the coalition will continue to For the benefit of senators who may not be throw mud at me. All I ask is that they aware of Dr Hamilton’s expertise, I will fill substantiate or specify any claims against me. you in from his CV. Dr Hamilton is founder and Executive Director of the Australia Dr Clive Hamilton Institute, a non-profit public policy research Senator LEES (South Australia—Deputy centre. He is a visiting fellow at the ANU and Leader of the Australian Democrats) (1.13 an adjunct professor at Sydney’s University p.m.)—Last week in this place, we witnessed of Technology. an unjustified and undignified attack on one Dr Hamilton, who is trained in maths and of Australia’s eminent economists. The economics, has filled a number of positions Democrats are well aware that, when a and they include: senior executive in the government lacking leadership is in disarray Prime Minister’s portfolio as head of research and it flounders, it resorts to underhand and in the Federal Resource Assessment Commis- dishonest attacks on parties and individuals. sion; senior economist in the Federal Bureau Indeed, with this government, it is becoming of Industry Economics; senior economic more and more obvious that if one dares to adviser to the government of Indonesia; and disagree—whether an individual or an organi- Director of the Graduate Program at the sation—the first thing that you usually face is National Centre for Development Studies at defunding. If they cannot get you that way, the Australian National University. He has then it is simply dismissal or denigration. served as a member of the United Nations But what we witnessed in here last week Group of Experts on Least Developed Count- during one of the question times was one of ries and, this year, Dr Hamilton addressed Mr Howard’s greenhouse henchmen—the delegates at climate change negotiations in fossil fuel apostle, Senator Warwick Parer— Bonn. He has been invited to act as a keynote struggling to justify this government’s foolish speaker at many prestigious conferences. He climate change position. Senator Parer, who has published four books, and is a widely is incapable of attacking the strong arguments experienced and respected lecturer. against the federal government’s shoddy Underlying all of Dr Hamilton’s work has greenhouse record, used parliamentary privi- been the credo of the Australia Institute, and lege to attack one of his government’s emi- that is: nent critics on this issue. But Senator Parer did not or could not attack this man’s eco- . . . to promote a more just, sustainable and peace- nomics; he attacked his spirituality. Senator ful society through research, publication and Parer vilified Dr Clive Hamilton, Executive vigorous participation in public debate. Director of the Australian Institute. Why? The aim of the institute is to restore a balance Because, like many Australians, Dr Hamilton between economic efficiency and consider- believes that the government’s greenhouse gas ations of the community, environment and stance is irresponsible and built on shonky ethics. I think that honourable senators will research and shonky figures. agree that Dr Hamilton’s curriculum vitae is Dr Clive Hamilton is not one of the How- exemplary. ard style economists—those who believe in In the midst of his manic diatribe last week, the quick buck mentality and who would Senator Parer offered Australians his own happily pummel everything and anything in guidance on who we should believe on the their way—whether it is the environment or issue of greenhouse gas economics. He people—for a short-term economic gain. suggested that the public listen to ABARE, Rather, Dr Hamilton sees economics in terms the apologist for all polluting industries, of the big picture. He recognises that jeopar- whose macro-economic modelling has been 7312 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 bucketed by all and sundry—and I am talking going to talk about personalities, we should about nationally as well as internationally. mention that he has even been photographed Was Senator Parer seriously telling people wearing fishnet stockings—who is telling the to listen to ABARE, whose chief, Brian rest of the world, seriously, that Australia Fisher, last year, told the Royal Institute of should be allowed to boost its greenhouse gas International Affairs that allowing small island emissions. What a position to take off to the states of the Pacific to be inundated with international conference in Japan at the end of rising sea levels—and for us then to be the year. When the rest of the world is sitting involved in relocating their populations— around the table looking at how we can come while industrial nations did nothing about to terms with this problem, and constructively greenhouse, may be the most economically deal with it, we have a minister who is efficient way of dealing with climate change? seriously suggesting that we go to that confer- Was he seriously telling people to accept the ence with the basic premise that we, Austral- ABARE models, which use wildly fanciful ia, want to be out of step with everybody else bases for their assumptions, such as a nonsen- and boost emissions. sical $900 a tonne carbon tax? These are What about some of the other people your models which, I must say, are now being government endorsed at the recent so-called investigated by the federal ombudsman and, ‘Pre-Eminent International Conference on as we all know, are substantially funded by Climate Change’? There was US Senator the fossil fuel industries. Malcolm Wallop—who makes Pauline No. I think people would much rather Hanson look like a moderate—and US Sena- consider Dr Hamilton’s reasonable, rational tor Chuck Hagel. I will give some of the and responsible economics. So let us look at background of both of them. Before his some of the other people that Senator Parer political career, Malcolm Wallop jointly considers the public should be listening to ventured oil and gas development projects in instead of Dr Hamilton. There is the good Nebraska, Montana and Wyoming. The efforts senator himself. Senator Parer is a former coal of these men to derail global greenhouse industry chief, who thought gas was not a undertakings in the United States are very fossil fuel, a resources minister who shrugged well documented. Are these the people that off the greenhouse effect numerous times, and Senator Parer is seriously asking us to put who laughed off rainfall changes as being ahead of Dr Hamilton? Really, Senator, I helpful to farmers. These are comments which would argue that the credentials on your side show not only how frivolous he thinks the of this debate are seriously lacking. Disreput- debate is but how little he knows about able models and disruptive advisers do not climate change. add up to good greenhouse policy. While the rest of the world is working Senator Parer also has—I hope, like most towards a solution, Senator Parer still does of us—now seen a statement by professional not seem to believe that there actually is a economists on climate change. Like Dr Clive problem. Indeed, he is on the record as saying Hamilton, these economists are arguing that that greenhouse issues will be forgotten in 10 Australia has to do something. I seek leave to years. incorporate a statement by professional economists on climate change. It is a one- Perhaps Senator Parer would like people to page statement accompanied by three pages listen to his other colleagues. There is Senator of names. Ian Macdonald, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment—and I Leave granted. am look at Hansard of 26 November 1996— The document read as follows— who had to be reminded by Senator Kernot A STATEMENT BY PROFESSIONAL ECONO- about the difference between the ozone layer MISTS ON CLIMATE CHANGE and the greenhouse effect. 1. A report by over 2000 distinguished international Perhaps we should listen to that internation- scientists under the auspices of the Intergovern- al giant, Mr Alexander Downer—if we are mental Panel on Climate Change has determined Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7313 that ‘the balance of evidence suggests a discernible raised from taxes or the sale of permits can be used human influence on global climate’. As economists to reduce the budget deficit or to lower existing we believe that global climate change carries with taxes. it significant environmental, economic, social and geopolitical risks and that preventive steps are 5. Developing countries will need to take measures justified. to reduce significantly their greenhouse gas emis- sions in due course. But since OECD countries are 2. Economic studies have found that there are many responsible for over 80% of increased greenhouse potential policies to reduce greenhouse gas emis- gases in the atmosphere, and are in a stronger sions for which the benefits outweigh the costs. economic position to reduce their emissions, they Policy options are available that would slow should take the lead in cutting emissions. climate change without harming employment or living standards in Australia, and these may in fact 6. An appropriate equity and efficiency principle improve Australian productivity in the long term. for the distribution of the emissions reductions is one where countries which are responsible for high 3. The economic modelling studies on which the per capita emissions and which are more wealthy Government is relying to assess the impacts of should do more to reduce their emissions. reducing Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions overestimate the costs and underestimate the 7. Withdrawal from the Framework Convention on benefits of reducing emissions. Climate Change could seriously harm Australia’s 4. Economic instruments—such as carbon taxes and long-term economic and diplomatic interests. It trading of emission permits within and between would be damaging to our longer-term economic countries—will be an important part of a compre- interests if Australia became locked into a fossil- hensive climate change policy. ‘Joint implement- fuel based economic structure while the rest of the ation’ policies, in which Australian firms carry out world shifts to low-emission energy sources over emission-reduction investments in developing coun- the next decades. tries, can also play a significant role. Revenues Signed by 131 professional economists

Signatories to the Professional Economists’ Statement on Climate Change

Surname First Name Title Position Uni/Organisation Alaouze Chris Dr Senior Lecturer University of NSW Alden Dave Dr Lecturer University of Melbourne Applegate Craig Dr Lecturer University of Canberra Arch Andrew Dr Manager Dept. of Natural Resources and Environment Argyrous George Dr Senior Lecturer University of NSW Bardsley Peter A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Melbourne Barrett Greg Lecturer University of Canberra Beal Diana Dr Senior Lecturer University of Southern Queensland Bentick Brian Dr Lecturer University of Adelaide Bhattacharya Debesh A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Sydney Bodman Philip Dr Lecturer University of Queensland Booth Ross Assistant Lecturer Monash University

Brown Allen Dr Lecturer Griffith University Brown Richard Dr Lecturer University of Queensland Burgess John Dr Senior Lecturer University of Newcastle Cameron Lisa Dr Lecturer University of Melbourne Campbell H.F. Professor Professor University of Queensland Chai Joseph Dr Senior Lecturer University of Queensland Chaudhri D.P. A/Prof. Associate Professor Wollongong University Choe Chongwoo Dr Lecturer La Trobe University Cornwell Antonia Economist Industry Commission Crosthwaite Jim Dr Research Fellow Dept. of Agriculture and Resource Management Dabscheck Braham A/Prof. Associate Professor University of NSW Damania D. Dr Senior Lecturer Flinders University Denniss Richard Lecturer University of Newcastle Dingle Tony A/Prof. Associate Professor Monash University 7314 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Surname First Name Title Position Uni/Organisation Dixon Peter Professor Director, Centre of Policy Monash University Studies Dixon Robert Dr Reader University of Melbourne Donath Susan Dr Lecturer/Research Fellow University of Melbourne Dutta Dilip Dr Senior Lecturer University of Sydney Dyster Barrie Dr Senior Lecturer University of NSW Etherington Dan Dr Visiting Fellow ANU Fernandes Leanne Dr Research Fellow James Cook University Fischer Wolfgang Professor Visiting Professor James Cook University Foster John Professor Professor University of Queensland Freebairn Margaret Lecturer Swinburne University Freedman Craig Dr Lecturer Macquarie University Gans Joshua A/Prof. Melbourne Business School Giesecke James Research Fellow University of Tasmania Green Roy Dr Director, Employment University of Newcastle Studies Centre Groenewegen Peter Professor Professor University of Sydney Gunner Susan Lecturer Flinders University Gupta Desh Dr Senior Lecturer University of Canberra Hamilton Clive Dr Visiting Fellow ANU Harcourt G.C. Professor Emeritus Professor ANU & University of Cambridge Harkness Peter Mr Senior Lecturer Swinburne University Harris Geoff A/Prof. Head of Department University of New England Harvey Rich Senior Economist State Forests of NSW Harvie Charles A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Wollongong Hatch John Dr Senior Lecturer University of Adelaide Hatzinikolaou Dimitris Dr Lecturer Flinders University Heaton Chris Associate Lecturer Macquarie University Hodgkinson Anne Dr Lecturer University of Wollongong Honu Bright Dr Lecturer University of Canberra Horvath Ron Dr Research Associate University of Sydney Hundloe Tor Professor Head, Technology Man- University of Queensland agement Centre Hunter Boyd Dr Post Doctoral Fellow ANU Hyde Charles Dr Lecturer University of Melbourne Jayasuriya Sisira A/Prof. Reader La Trobe University Jones Evan Dr Senior Lecturer University of Sydney Junankar Raja Dr Reader ANU Kapuscinski Cezary Dr Research Associate ANU Karunaratne Neil Dr Senior Lecturer University of Queensland Kennedy John A/Prof. Reader La Trobe University Kennedy Pauline Associate Lecturer La Trobe University King J.E. Dr Reader La Trobe University Laurent John Dr Lecturer Griffith University Lee Michael Dr Lecturer Monash University Lenten Liam Associate Lecturer La Trobe University Levy Amnon A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Wollongong Lloyd Peter Professor Professor University of Melbourne Lockwood Michael Dr Senior Lecturer Charles Sturt University Lumley Sarah Dr Lecturer University of Western Aus- tralia McKay Darren Associate Lecturer University of Newcastle Madsen Jakob Dr Senior Lecturer University of Western Aus- tralia Mahendrarajah Sinniah Dr Senior Lecturer ANU Manning* I.G. Dr Deputy Executive Direc- National Institute of Eco- tor nomic and Industry Re- search Mathews Russell Professor Emeritus Professor ANU McDonald Ian Professor Professor University of Melbourne Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7315

Surname First Name Title Position Uni/Organisation Meagher Gabrielle Dr Lecturer University of Sydney Meppem Tony Dr Research Fellow University of New England Mitchell William Dr Head of Department University of Newcastle Monypenny R. A/Prof. Associate Professor James Cook University Moyle Geoffrey Natural Resource Econo- AACM International mist Neutze Max Professor Visiting Fellow ANU Ng Yew- Dr Monash University & Chi- Kwang nese University of Hong Kong Nightingale John Dr Senior Lecturer University of New England Nobbs Chris Dr Director Rush Social Research O’Donnell Rod Professor Professor Macquarie University Oslington Paul Mr Associate Lecturer Macquarie University Owen Anthony A/Prof. Associate Professor University of NSW Pant Hom Dr Research Fellow University of Tasmania Perera Nelson Dr Senior Lecturer University of Wollongong Phipps A.J. A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Sydney Probert Belinda Professor Director (CASR) RMIT Quiggin John Professor Head of Department James Cook University Rajapakse Suri Dr Griffith University Ramia Gaby Dr Research Fellow University of NSW Read Mike Managing Director Read Sturgess & Associ- ates Rice Robert Dr Senior Lecturer Monash University Rogers Maureen Lecturer La Trobe University Rolfe John Head of Campus Central Queensland Univer- sity Saleeba Joanne Economist EPA Victoria Samaraweera Sam Dr Lecturer Northern Territory Univer- sity Sanyal Kali Associate ANU Savage Elizabeth Dr Senior Lecturer University of Sydney Sharp Rhonda Dr Senior Lecturer University of South Aus- tralia Sheng Yuming Dr Lecturer Macquarie University Sinha Ajit Dr Lecturer University of Newcastle Sloan Keith Head of Commerce Southern Cross University Smith Christine A/Prof. Griffith University Smith Roslyn Senior Lecturer Swinburne University Smith Greg Dr Lecturer University of New England Stilwell Frank A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Sydney Stretton Hugh Professor Visiting Fellow University of Adelaide Tacconi Luca Dr Research Fellow ANU Taneja Pradeep Dr Dep. Director, Asia Aust Swinburne University Research Centre Taylor Mark Senior Project Officer Brisbane City Council Terrell R.D. Professor Vice-Chancellor ANU Thompson Herbert A/Prof. Associate Professor Murdoch University Throsby David Professor Professor Macquarie University Trembly Pascal Dr Lecturer Northern Territory Univer- sity Trethewey Mark Mr Senior Lecturer Victoria University Turkington Darrell A/Prof. Associate Professor University of Western Aus- tralia Vemuri Siva Ram Dr Associate Dean Northern Territory Univer- sity Walpole Sandra Dr Research Fellow Charles Sturt University Watts Martin Dr Senior Lecturer University of Newcastle Wheelwright E.L. A/Prof. University of Sydney White Michael Dr Senior Lecturer Monash University 7316 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Surname First Name Title Position Uni/Organisation Young Mike President, ANZSEE CSIRO Division of Wild- life and Ecology Young Robert Environmental Officer NSW Agriculture All signatories signed in their personal capacities only. * These signatories made amendments to the statement before signing.

Senator LEES—As we can see from these Aboriginal Health names, they come from all states. They come Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- from virtually every university in the coun- tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister try—the University of New England, New for Social Security) (1.23 p.m.)—I take this South Wales, Wollongong, Adelaide, Can- opportunity to raise important issues with berra, Sydney, Queensland, La Trobe, ANU, regard to the state of health in Northern Flinders et cetera. Surely, these are the people Territory Aboriginal communities. who we should be listening to. I also think that most Australians would prefer to listen to Whilst many of the programs and govern- the 2,500 eminent scientists and experts rather ment initiatives, at both the territory and than the nonsensical position of some of those Commonwealth level, have improved the intimately involved in the coal and fossil fuel health of Aboriginal people over the years, industries. the results are still unacceptable. The problem is complex and difficult to solve. The federal The last point I wish to raise is my deep coalition government and the Country Liberal regret and disappointment that the Senate, a Northern Territory government have put in place which should be seen as unprejudiced place successful programs such as the strong and open minded, has been the venue for woman, strong baby, strong culture program; Senator Parer’s attack on an individual’s most a food and nutrition audit; living with alcohol private and personal aspect: their spirituality. programs; and the Northern Territory food project aimed at educating and improving the The Democrats and, I dare say, members of health of Aboriginal people. But still, unfortu- Senator Parer’s own party and others in this nately, many health problems continue to place, absolutely abhor this kind of attack. exist in Aboriginal communities. Whether individuals choose to meditate, seek A fundamental and vital factor affecting the guidance from a higher being or act on their health of Aboriginal people in these commu- dreams is totally up to them. It should not be nities is diet. The food eaten, the amount of up to Senator Parer or anyone else to deride alcohol consumed, the decreased use of them. It should not be up to Senator Parer or traditional bush tucker, the high level of sugar anyone else to treat anyone in such a disres- and many other dietary influences contribute pectful lmanner, for any aspect of their to the poor overall health in many communi- spirituality. ties. I ask Senator Parer to exorcise some of the A major influence on the diet and health of clearly evident demons of his own before he people in Aboriginal communities is always goes searching for those in others. I ask him and inevitably the community store. Lee, and his colleagues to stop the greenhouse Bonson and Powers, from the Menzies School nonsense; stop peddling the mistruths and the of Health Research, comment in a journal half-truths; stop listening to a couple of article entitled ‘The effect of retail store industries; and start doing what is in the best managers on Aboriginal diet in remote interests of all Australians. Stop the name communities’ that, in many Aboriginal com- calling, sit down and, before it is too late, munities, there is only one community store seriously look at Australia’s best interests as providing over 95 per cent of the total dietary well as our best interests as a global citizen. intake and— Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7317

. . . one way to avoid arbitrary variations in store to improve the wellbeing of the people and managers’ individual ordering patterns, and to lift their standard of living, not line the ensure that the food supplied reflects both com- pockets of rip-off merchants, unscrupulous munity preference and nutritional needs, is to implement a store food and nutrition policy. managers or selected members of the com- munity. They should be providing money for This makes the role of a store in the com- education, cultural events, training and sport- munity vital to the ongoing health of the ing events, and things that keep a community community. No adequate competition exists alive, healthy and active. to provide alternatives in pricing and, perhaps even more importantly, nutritional and choice In many Aboriginal community stores the values. problems are compounded: stock disappears at an astonishing rate without being paid for; It is my belief that, in many communities, large sums of money are fleeced; and the Aboriginal residents are being badly let down nutritional value of foodstock is very low. by the managers and management committees Aboriginal communities must address this of their community-owned stores. The best unfortunate financial situation if they are to interests of the community are not being gain true self-determination. It is a situation served by proper responsibility or accounta- I wish to continually highlight but, unfortu- bility. Unfortunately, in a significant number nately, do not have sufficient time today to of cases, the mismanagement of community dwell on it in this particular speech. stores involves both financial and health policy concerns. Rather, I wish to concentrate on the poor nutrition in Aboriginal communities. The One recent review by me of a community saddest and most shocking aspect of the store at Maningrida—which has an annual problem is that, in many cases, a poor diet trading revenue of about $4 million in shop does not affect those consuming that poor sales and about 1,000 people living in the diet. In many cases, such as those of expec- community—shows that, for three consecutive tant mothers, it can affect the unborn child in years, there were qualified auditors’ reports later life in many ways such as low birth stating that the gross profit margins were not weight, stunting of growth, subsequent learn- consistent with expected results, based on the ing problems at school, immune deficiencies set mark-up percentages. In fact, growth profit and high rates of hospitalisation, morbidity margins were well below what was expected. and mortality. In plain English, this means that either cash A cycle of poor nutrition before birth leads was being taken out of the till or stock was to poor health in childhood and adult life. walking out of the door unpaid for. I am Repetition through generations must be concerned about the huge rip-off of cash and broken. Nutrition is one piece of the health stock, and the resultant honesty and compe- puzzle, and a very important one. Improving tence of management, in stores of this size. nutrition would go a long way to addressing Stores in Aboriginal communities cannot the shocking health problems in Aboriginal continue to face cash misappropriations—like communities. I must stress that stores in the $150,000 at Maningrida—or hundreds of Aboriginal communities do have a vital role thousands of dollars in stock losses each year. in the health of the community, and that there The profits of these community stores are success stories. should be going back directly into the com- Let me cite the example of an extremely munity by way of dividends for residents and successful Aboriginal group operating stores improved community services. This is a legal in the Northern Territory. The Arnhem Land and, more importantly, a moral obligation. Progress Association, commonly known as Managers of stores, and their management ALPA, has been trading successfully for 25 committees, must ensure that there is no years, and is an exceptional example of an financial mismanagement or stock loss that Aboriginal cooperative retailer. Their financial deprives the community of what is rightfully accounts for the year ended 30 April 1997 theirs. Profits from these stores must be used show a trading turnover of $14 million and a 7318 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 gross profit of over $4 million in their own The promotion of the health of the communi- stores. Compare this with my earlier example ty is something that the store should play a of the poorly operated community store at major role in and accept responsibility for, Maningrida! particularly with regard to nutrition. ALPA itself has stores in five Arnhem Land ALPA has a strong nutrition policy that communities. These are: Minjilang, known as includes programs such as ensuring an ample Croker Island; Galiwin’ku, or Elcho Island; supply of fresh fruit and vegetables, satisfying Gapuwiyak, or Lake Evella; Ramingining; and the dietary needs of diabetics and employing Milingimbi. They also provide management Good Food people in each store to help make assistance to the communities of Warruwi, this policy work. ALPA subsidises the full Belyuen, Umbakumba and Lajamanu in the cost of the freight on fruit and vegetables, a Northern Territory, and Turkey Creek and significant amount of which has to be air- Noonkanbah in the Kimberley region of freighted into the communities. This is made Western Australia. possible by charging a levy on cigarettes— ALPA is owned and controlled by Aborigi- perhaps a very good idea which many other nes. Its board meets every three months and stores in the Territory, not just those in all policy decisions regarding ALPA are made Aboriginal communities, should consider at these meetings. The board consists of 18 adopting. Aboriginal directors from the five member As you walk into an ALPA store you will communities and includes the board chairman, see fresh fruit prominently displayed, not just the Reverend Djiniyini Gondarra, along with the junk and fatty food and pink lemonade five council chairmen representing their that stares you in the face in so many other various communities. community stores. The takeaway arms of It is this Aboriginal control and a strong, ALPA shops are replacing foods high in fat clear positive mission statement giving direc- with other healthier alternatives and are also tions that accounts for ALPA’s success. I will making available stews and steamed and fried quote from their mission statement which rice, and promoting fruit juices and diet says: drinks instead of sugared soft drinks. Simple decisions and leadership examples are quite ALPA’s mission is to conduct an efficient retail easy to implement and will have a measurable business emphasising customer service, nutrition impact on the health of the community. and staff development, training and education. ALPA strives to enhance the social and economic I have recently written letters to all com- development of its members. Giving primacy to munity store managers, school principals, their cultural heritage, dignity and desire for health workers and ATSIC regional council- equality with their fellow Australians. lors in the Northern Territory seeking their The emphasis on staff development, training views and advice. With the help and advice and education has led to the vast majority of of the Northern Territory Department of store workers being Aborigines who receive Health, I am hoping that the nutritional value training in all aspects of store work. We are of the stock in some Aboriginal stores can be seeing people who live in the community, and vastly improved, with a subsequent improve- the community itself, benefiting from the ment in the health of the community. opportunity for employment, increased educa- The federal government is also taking tion and training. important initiatives to improve Aboriginal The control over decision making processes health. The national plan to monitor indigen- with regard to their stores and the opportuni- ous health is another example of the federal ties they present empowers the community coalition government taking strong action to and raises self-esteem in the individual and address a problem. Instead of relying on pride in the community. Coupled with a good rhetoric and little result, as Labor has done nutrition policy and sound management, this with regard to so many problems, particularly can only enhance a community—and it is Aboriginal health, we are seeing the govern- important that people realise this importance. ment require all health workers to report Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7319 against a set of national performance indica- and the Hodgson Downs to continue unab- tors and targets to lift the health status of the ated. The costs to future Aboriginal genera- indigenous population. tions are too high and must be fixed now. The setting of clear targets that are appro- National Crime Authority priate for different circumstances experienced Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.36 p.m.)— across different regions of Australia, along I rise today to speak on matters that flow with improved reporting and evaluation, is from the Victorian Supreme Court of Appeal another important step by the federal govern- decision in relation to John Elliott and the ment in improving Aboriginal and Torres NCA. I would like to draw together some Strait Islander health. The targets we have set information that I have previously put before include: a reduction by 50 per cent in the the Senate with some further evidence that death rate for infants and by 20 per cent in has never been put before a jury. the overall death rate over 10 years, and an increase in immunisation and vaccination for I would like to start with Mr Ken Jarrett’s key conditions. An example is the target of original evidence that he gave to the NCA achieving 95 per cent of Aboriginal people under oath on 19 December 1990. Page 565 immunised against hepatitis B in two years. of this transcript is a discussion between Mr Jarrett and the counsel on behalf of the NCA, The benchmarks are important as they set Mr Rozenes, referring to the $39 million loss clear objectives for state and territory govern- incurred by Elders: ments to achieve. They have been endorsed by the national Aboriginal community con- Rozenes: trolled health organisations and state and Were you involved or did you have any involve- territory governments. With the concerted ment in that transaction? effort being taken at the state and federal Jarrett: level, I am hopeful that we will soon see an Yes. improvement in Aboriginal health. The North- Rozenes: ern Territory Country Liberal Party govern- ment is working closely with organisations How long prior to 11 January? such as Batchelor College’s Health Unit, the Jarrett: Menzies School of Health Research and with Well, early September 1987 . . . I should explain— their own Territory health services. He goes on to say: There is a challenge for governments, that we purchased Courage Brewery in September supervising authorities and Aboriginal com- the previous year, and we paid for it, I think, about munity leaders to achieve health improve- January 1988...thecost 1.4 billion pounds— ments, policy improvements, by redressing the He goes on to explain that it was agreed to do poor nutritional value of food sold in the this at a meeting of Elders management in community stores as a first instance, as well August of that year. He is asked who else as lifting the standards of financial accounta- attended that meeting, and he says: bility and the performance of basic food I think—actually it would have been John Elliott, providers, the community store. myself, Ken Biggins, and I think Peter Scanlon was There are, of course, other challengers, there. particularly those at universities and the need He was then asked: what happened after the for university research and health work, such decision? as the excellent work being conducted at Well, I went—almost immediately I went overseas Flinders University in South Australia and the with John Elliott. issues that are associated with that. I hope, in On page 567, he goes on to say that he was the future, we will see more of that type of in Japan. He continues: academic activity take place in northern . . . which I think was early September, I got a call Australia and particularly in the Northern from Peter Scanlon who said he had been talking Territory. We cannot allow the dramatic with Alan Hawkins of Equity Corp and Alan—and problems of the Maningridas, the Numbulwars raised this question about hedging and Alan 7320 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Hawkins had said that they would be interested in Once it was established that they were losing doing a—being the counterparty. I spoke to Peter money on this transaction. He continues: Scanlon about a price of such a deal. . . . but in any case the contracts were closed out Another question: and—result in that second payment of 27 million— After you spoke to Scanlon, what did you do then? to Hawkins. Jarrett: Later in the evidence—on page 580—the John Elliott was there. I checked with John Elliott discussion returns to the first transaction to make sure he was happy to do the transaction. where Jarrett again confirms that Scanlon, It was less—it was 120 million pounds, not—was Elliott and Biggins were all involved in the where—came to hedge up to 200— discussions. He goes on to say: I would like to move on to Ken Biggins’s He was happy with that and I relayed that to Peter evidence which he also gave on 19 December Scanlon and told him we were happy for him to 1990 under oath to the NCA. He was asked: commit to Hawkins... Can you tell us what it is that you know about the but Peter Scanlon came back and confirmed that he first transaction? had confirmed the transaction with Hawkins and And he replied (page 613): gave me the figures. Yes. Prior to 11 January, Ken Jarrett rang me and Rozenes: said that a fax would be coming from the BNZ And was the deal finally closed out? addressed to me and to him, I think, at area 1, 1 Garden Street, seeking confirmation of the exist- Jarrett: ence of foreign exchange contracts; that he had Well the short term one matured in January. already spoken to Mr John Elliott about this matter and that John agreed that area 1 thing, that was an Rozenes: area 1 exposure; that area 1, namely me... And that resulted in a loss? The transcript continued: Jarrett: I took that on board and said I would speak to John The loss in that statement of $39 million. Elliott during the course of the—when the fax turned up, in due course, when he was around, and He goes on to say: if he gave me authority to acknowledge it, I would. Well the initial—the initial transition was done by I spoke to John Elliott. He said, yes, it was OK to Peter Scanlon and then acknowledge the BNZ and I did so. I had a few phone conversations, I suppose just Page 617: confirming what he had confirmed really. Well, then, what were the circumstances of this On page 570, Rozenes says: particular— If I can take you now to the second transaction, Answer: that is the transaction that resulted in Elders I do not know. You would have to ask Mr Jarrett. Finance incurring the loss of approximately $27 I mean, I did not—he told me he had spoken to Mr million on or about 7 September 1988. Elliott. I then sought Mr Elliott’s approval to send Jarrett says: off the reply. Yes. He then goes on to say: And he goes on to explain the background No, the purpose of it was explained to me to cover and says: our long pound selling positions. . . . the place and I think John Elliott had been He was asked: talking to Roger Douglas about New Zealand. I Can you just tell me the conversation you had with think that he came back understanding that the New Mr Elliott about this, what did you say to him and Zealand economy was ahead of Australia and what did he say to you? turning around . . . but they believed because of the strength of the economy that the New Zealand Answer: dollar would appreciate over the following twelve I said that Ken Jarrett had spoken to me on the months . . . So Ken Biggins and myself argued to phone—or this is when the fax turned up from the John Elliott that we should close the contract out. BNZ from memory. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7321

Question: He goes on to say: Yes? In a conversation by phone with a Mr Hawkins from the Equiticorp Group, the conversation of Answer: which had other purposes if I recall, I asked if he That Ken Jarrett had spoken to me and said he had had any interest in being on the other side of such already spoken to you about this particular hedging a hedge contract. He, in fact, said yes, and I contract or contracts and that you had advised him suspect that that led to that hedge contract... that the corporate area would acknowledge to the BNZ the existence of the contract, and that I was ...... seeking his approval to do so. He said fine. After that phone call, I then talked to the Treasurer of Elders IXL, Mr Ken Jarrett, who in my recollec- That is John Elliott. John Elliott said, ‘Fine.’ tion was not in the office here, he was overseas The answer continued: somewhere at that time. Yes, he had been through it with Mr Jarrett and he Mr Rozenes: was happy it could be acknowledged. So, having had this conversation with—how many And it goes on and on. All of the principals conversations did you have with Hawkins? that were charged were involved in setting up this deal. Mr Scanlon: Two. I would briefly like to return to some evidence I gave previously to the Senate Mr Rozenes: which was Mr Elliott’s own testimony, where I take it that we are dealing with the first one . . . he implicates himself as having been involved Mr Scanlon: in this transaction. He says: We are. And so, I agreed with him that he ought to take the Mr Rozenes: 120 million pound cover but that it ought to be done through a bank. You then contact Mr Jarrett who is overseas? On page 665 of Mr Elliott’s transcript, Mr ...... Rozenes said: What does Jarrett say to you? Well you gave an approval, I take it in principle. Mr Scanlon: Mr Elliott said: Jarrett says that he would be very keen to do that, I said, that it is fine, do it... but he was unable to follow up directly with Hawkins himself, and would I go back to him and Well, the next time I really remember having any try to tie it down. dealings about that transaction was in January when I—I suppose I hit the roof about it. Mr Rozenes: And he hit the roof because they had lost all You would say, would you, that the time when you spoke to Hawkins last, there was no concluded that money. But again, Elliott admits he knew agreement between Elders IXL and Equiticorp? all about it. He was privy to the conversation to set the deal up. He gave authority to set the Mr Scanlon: deal up. I would say there was. Then we go to Mr Scanlon. Mr Scanlon is Mr Rozenes: the man who actually set the deal up, and he There was a concluded agreement? admits it as shown in his transcript from 19 December: Mr Scanlon: Yes, well, I would have thought Jarrett had gave I think, sir, my involvement in that may be in me conditions that would enter into that contract setting up a hedge contract that led to the transac- for and asked me to— tion. Mr Rozenes: Mr Rozenes: So you would say a deal was done? And can you recall when it was when you set up the hedge contract? Mr Scanlon: Mr Scanlon: Yes, I would. Approximately the third quarter of 1987. Scanlon did the deal. 7322 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

I would now like to turn very briefly to During that same period I was generally aware that Ken Jarrett’s evidence of 1994. This is when between 21 and 26 May 1986 a company associat- Ken Jarrett had decided he was sick of telling ed with . . . HAWKINS . . . and . . . PRATT . . . (which I now know to be Beid Pty. Ltd.) purchased lies about what had been going on at Elders approximately 4.4% of the issued share capital in IXL and Fosters. He wanted, finally, to tell BHP. As a result, the NCSC declared to be unac- the truth and he gave evidence to the NCA ceptable the share acquisitions and the conduct of about the true nature of these transactions. HAWKINS and PRATT in relation thereto. Paragraph 12 says: Paragraph 27 says: In about June 1984 EXL, through a subsidiary During the first half of 1987 SCANLON came to Elders N.V., made an issue in Europe of conver- see me and said that EXL owed HAWKINS money tible bonds having a face value of U.S.$160 as part of an arrangement with HAWKINS in million. The motivation for the issue was partly a relation to the BHP shares. I took this to be a need for EXL to raise capital and partly to enable reference to the BHP shares purchased by Beid Pty. executives of the company to take up financial Ltd. in May 1986. SCANLON told me that it was interests in the company in a manner which could necessary to pay it in a way that was not disclosed. be self-funded. I believe the scheme to finance I think he mentioned a figure in the order of $30 executive participation was proposed initially by million. Certainly, whatever amount was mentioned Bankers Trust. It was attractive to the intended at that stage was a lot less than was ultimately beneficiaries in that it was expected that the bonds paid. The purpose of this approach to me was to would increase in value as EXL prospered and it ask me how the payment could be made covertly. would enable them to maintain some control over Paragraph 29 says: the company. I had a number of further conversations during Paragraph 13 says: 1987 with SCANLON on the question of how the payment to HAWKINS could be disguised. At one I became involved in discussions relating to the stage he asked me whether company to company proposal initially with WIESENER and ELLIOTT. hedges might be used as the method of concealing By the time that issue was made ELLIOTT, the payment. SCANLON, WIESENER, Cowper and Lord were, to my knowledge, aware of the executive participa- There are pages and pages more which time tion. does not allow me to read into Hansard. This was the so-called Swiss bonds issue for What happened on Friday in the Victorian which John Elliott put his hand on his heart Supreme Court of Appeal is very important to and said, ‘I know nothing about it.’ Ken this case. The decision is conclusive that the Jarrett was the man who organised it for him. basis for the acquittal of Elliott, Scanlon, He was his right-hand man inside Fosters, and Biggins and others was fundamentally flawed. he has gone on oath and said, ‘I organised it. Mr Justice Brooking said on page 12 of his John Elliott was in it.’ judgment that in deciding whether the NCA Paragraph 16 says: had exceeded its reference, Mr Justice Vin- cent needed only to have looked at the word- On 10 and 11 April 1986 EXL through a subsid- ing of the reference itself, and no-one disputes iary, purchased approximately 18.56% of the issued share capital of BHP. On the same dates BHP that the reference itself was sufficient to deal purchased the U.S.$105 million parcel of Elders with the H fee transaction. N.V. convertible bonds at a price which represented Mr Justice Brooking concluded on page 22 a profit to the beneficial owners of the bonds of his judgment that the course of action totalling tens of millions of dollars. By my own calculations the total profit amounted to about taken by Mr Justice Vincent in looking A$78 million. behind the wording of the reference to the events that preceded it and taking into ac- This is $78 million profit on bonds that they count what was in the mind of the officers of owned, not, as they try to pretend now, that the NCA when they approached the minister they knew nothing about. Ken Jarrett was a for a reference in the Elliott case was com- beneficiary of the bonds. He put up his hand pletely inappropriate on the part of Mr Justice and said, ‘I am in part ownership of these Vincent. Mr Justice Brooking was supported bonds with Elliott, Scanlon and others.’ in his view by Mr Justice Winneke and Mr Paragraph 21 says: Justice Tadgell. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7323

The course of action taken by Mr Justice unfair treatment of small business. What I Vincent has no precedence to support it and wish to address today is a case study of how has produced the wrong outcome. As a badly small business can be dealt with by big consequence of reaching the totally incorrect companies in this country—a case study conclusion that the reference was inadequate, which demands the urgent attention of every Mr Justice Vincent compounded his mistake person in this Senate so that they can under- by then ruling all the NCA evidence, which stand how the large oil companies have I have just been reading from, inadmissible. manipulated the system, abused the law and This was incorrect. Mr Justice Vincent then abused so-called voluntary codes of practice proceeded to declare that, because the evi- to their own advantage. dence was inadmissible, there was no case to It is a sorry case which saw a small family answer and therefore the accused should be company driven into the ground at the ma- acquitted. This was also incorrect. nipulation of one of our large oil companies, Mr Justice Brooking has also made it clear in this case Mobil. Mobil is a supplier of fuel that it is not appropriate in this case for the products to Cairns international airport on judge to determine the outcome of a trial behalf of all of the fuel companies in Austral- before a matter has been put to the jury. The ia. It has an arrangement whereby they all use Brooking decision establishes that the basis of one company to deliver products in their own the Elliott acquittal was fundamentally flawed name to the airport. Mobil in turn used a and that there was absolutely no basis for Mr distributor at Cairns airport which was a Justice Vincent to acquit Elliott, Scanlon and company called Air Vision. Biggins. Air Vision was basically owned by the After the acquittal in 1996, many deroga- Boundy family, and they had had this busi- tory statements have been made in the media ness for many years. They were a long-term by Elliott and Scanlon about the competence distributor at that airport. They have always, of the NCA to prepare a case, lay charges and in so far as I understand the situation, acted present the case to court. John Elliott, Peter in a thorough and acceptable manner. In fact, Scanlon, Ken Biggins and Ken Jarrett lied so acceptable has been the service of Air under oath in their evidence before the NCA. Vision that a couple of years ago Mobil Elliott and Scanlon lied in their evidence suggested to the principals of Air Vision that before the NCSC. Elliott and Scanlon lied in they increase their working capital by borrow- their evidence before the joint committee ing money from the banks, seeking advances overseeing the National Crime Authority. from banks, for the purposes of Air Vision Elliott and Scanlon lied at their press confer- taking over the distribution of fuel products ence after the 1996 Vincent decision. not just in Cairns, where they already were, but at Kingsford Smith Airport in Sydney. Elliott and Scanlon have always lied in regard to their knowledge of the beneficial It may be imagined how attractive a propo- owners of the Elders convertible bonds. Elliott sition this was for Air Vision. Accordingly, and Scanlon have always lied in relation to following the suggestion made to them by VicInvest. Elliott and Scanlon have yet to Mobil, they did go to the bank, they did utter one word of truth on any of these trans- increase their working capital, they purchased actions. If I worked at the NCA I would be a property in Sydney from which their exec- begging John Elliott to bring on his claim: utives could work and they made other invest- ‘For $200 million come and sue us.’ I would ments in terms of computer technologies and beg him to do it. (Time expired) so on, in the belief that they were going to continue operations in Cairns and, further, Small Business that they were going to take over the distribu- Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (1.51 tion of fuel products at Sydney airport. p.m.)—Honourable senators would be aware What happened, however, was that there that yesterday the government introduced a was a change of heart in Mobil. Mobil decid- package of proposed legislation to deal with ed that not only were they not going to allow 7324 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Air Vision to become the distributor at Syd- ly 35 cases under the Oilcode procedures that has ney international airport, but, moreover, that not resulted in agreement between the parties. they were going to do this job themselves in It is especially disappointing that Mobil has Cairns. Therefore, Mobil decided to terminate terminated this conciliation and by doing so failed its agreement with Air Vision for the distribu- to comply with my directions to provide further information so that I can form a view as to a fair tion of fuel products at Cairns airport. and reasonable outcome of this dispute in accord At this point, obviously, this company no with Oilcode principles. longer had any business at all and, through If that information had been provided then depend- APADA—the Australian Petroleum Agents ing on the content of that information I might have and Distributors Association—they sought to formed the view that a higher payment than my have the matter dealt with under Oilcode. suspended recommendation and Mobil’s offer of $450,000 may have been a fair and reasonable That is what they did. Unfortunately, Mobil settlement. Mobil’s termination could reasonably be did not want to play by the rules. Not only seen as an attempt to prevent such a possibility. did Mobil not want to play by the rules; they I am also very concerned about the fact that Mobil also decided that they did not want to pay the has not as far as I am aware adequately responded outstanding invoices that were due to Air to Air Vision in respect of unpaid invoice claims Vision—invoices in the amount of $300,000. of approximately $300,000 which in my view is an The matter went to a conciliator, Mr David additional item to matters covered by the $450,000 Newton. As a result, an offer was made by as I stated in my suspended recommendation. Mobil. But it was a ‘take it or leave it’ offer In my view Mobil has not complied with clauses in the amount of $450,000. 4 and 5 of the Conciliator Appointment Agreement. I am very concerned to protect and advance the Air Vision and the Boundys claimed a integrity of the Oilcode process and my comments substantially higher amount. The turnover at are directed to that end. that airport would justify a substantially higher amount; their previous profit figures Yours sincerely would justify a substantially higher amount; David Newton and fairness, given that this company has Conciliator been there for decades, would require a I seek leave to have that letter tabled in the substantially higher amount. Mobil said, parliament so that all can see it. ‘$450,000—take it or leave it.’ At that point, Air Vision said, ‘Hold on. There is further Leave granted. information which has not been considered by Senator O’CHEE—I thank the Senate. In the conciliator,’ and they put further informa- the final moments available to me, let me tion, further evidence, before the conciliator. make the point that Mobil here has clearly At that point, Mobil refused to cooperate with breached the Oilcode principles, it has clearly the conciliator and withdrew this case from attempted to frustrate the conciliator, and this Oilcode. is the way the oil companies conduct them- selves in this country. So concerned was the conciliator that he has written a letter to Mobil Oil Australia Ltd. It is important that the government’s pro- I shall read the letter to the Senate. It is posed reforms get passed. But it is also addressed to Mr Symington and Mr Stevens, important, dreadfully important, that Mobil be and it says: brought to book for the way in which they have destroyed this small business—a family Dear Garth and Craig, business. I intend to continue to pursue this Re Mobil and Air Vision—Cairns Airport— matter. I would hope that if Mobil are sen- Conciliation under Oilcode Principles sible, if they do not want their dirty linen I refer to Craig’s letter of 10 September 1997 aired, as it ought to be, they will at least start terminating the conciliation of the above matter. to become reasonable and start to make a I share the disappointment that a resolution of this reasonable attempt to comply with the matter has not occurred through conciliation. It is Oilcode principles before further action has to the first conciliation in 7 years out of approximate- be taken in this place. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7325

DISTINGUISHED VISITORS being there. It is between CEDA and the jour- The PRESIDENT—Order! Before com- nalist whether the journalist has broken the mencing question time, I draw the attention requirement that CEDA places on them. of honourable senators to the presence in the Coming to the specific matters, I am very President’s Gallery of Mr Kantibhai Patel, a pleased that I have a complete tape of the member of parliament from Harare, Zimbab- relevant speech. If, Senator, you are interested we. I trust that your visit to this country will in employment strategies, can I refer you to be enjoyable and informative. the OECD job strategy. Can I ask you to go Honourable senators—Hear, hear! through the 10 or so issues listed by the OECD as being appropriate for maximising QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE employment opportunities and employment growth. They are things like getting appropri- Job Security ate macroeconomic settings right, having an Senator MACKAY—My question is efficient education and training system, directed to the Minister for Employment, maximising the generation of new technology Education, Training and Youth Affairs, and the dissemination of it and having a freer Senator Vanstone. Minister, has your attention industrial relations system. One of them been drawn to the comments made by the relates quite specifically to the question of Prime Minister when announcing the govern- unfair dismissals. ment’s backflip on TCF tariffs? He said: I am surprised you asked this question . . . this is a very good decision for the battlers of because it leads me to the opportunity of Australia. It is a decision which is designed to give reminding you of one of the impediments to people a greater sense of job security. increasing employment in Australia that was there—your old unfair dismissal law. You do Why then did you tell a CEDA private dinner not seem to understand the consequences of that, in order to reduce unemployment: your very unfair unfair dismissal law. . . . you have to have Senator Mackay—But it’s your unfair [as] it might be described... dismissal law. lessened job security. It’s not a message everyone Senator VANSTONE—Senator, you asked wants to hear? me the question, so I am entitled to answer If that is not a message everyone wants to it—and I am answering it. You know, or you hear, why did you then endeavour to ensure should know, that small business, when it that no-one heard it, by insisting that this believes that it is going to be very expensive message was not to be passed on to the to change a person who has proved unsatis- media? factory for one reason or another and to select Senator VANSTONE—I thank the senator another person, does not take a new person on for her question. Yes, I am aware of the if there is a high cost to that—and there was Prime Minister’s remarks, and I agree with a significantly high cost under Labor’s unfair them. The remarks made at the CEDA confer- unfair dismissal law. What you do in that ence, as I think you well know, have been situation is simply employ casuals because taken out of context, misunderstood and you will not take the chance that you might misreported. For confirmation of that, I think make a bad choice. If you cannot swap some- you can lead to this point—that it was not me one over and take a new person on who you that asked that the matters raised at the CEDA hope more appropriately fits the requirements dinner be Chatham-house rules. That, I under- of your small business and if it is going to stand, is CEDA’s practice. They invite some- cost you too much money, you will not do it. one to dinner and they say, ‘We have Chat- When there is a very unfair unfair dismissal ham-house rules dinners.’ In fact, they con- law, such as the one you supported, people tacted my office and asked if we had an feel particularly secure in their jobs, whether objection to a journalist being there. I said I they are performing properly or not. A job had no objection whatsoever to a journalist becomes almost a tenure. And the point that 7326 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 is being made with respect to this particular Minister for Workplace Relations and Small OECD aspect of the job strategy is that you Business. I note that in my home state of cannot have a tight industrial relations system Queensland the government’s comprehensive with a very tight unfair dismissal law which small business reforms—announced yester- will inhibit business from changing people day—were very warmly received by the retail over. That is, if you are good at the job, you traders and also the motor vehicle traders. get to keep it and you are secure in your job; Could you advise the Senate of the reaction if you are not good at your job, then you of the broader Australian small business should be insecure in it. That was the point community to those long awaited reforms, that was made in the CEDA speech. which the Labor party and the Labor govern- Senator MACKAY—Madam President, I ment could not deliver, even after overseeing have a supplementary question. Minister, if 17 small business reviews and reports? you claim that you were quoted out of con- Senator ALSTON—I thank Senator text, misunderstood and misreported, can you Boswell and I can assure him that the reaction confirm that you said at the CEDA dinner that in the other states has been equally as euphor- you have to have, as might be described, ic as that in Queensland. In fact, it might be ‘lessened job security. It is not a message that a slight misrepresentation of the situation to everyone wants to hear.’ Did you say that. say that this mob had 17 reviews in 13 years; Senator VANSTONE—Senator, you tempt the fact is that they had 18 and the 18th was me to give you a tape of the whole speech. no better than the ones that went before it Senator Mackay—That would be all right. because all they did was, once again, promise Senator VANSTONE—I know you would to have another good think about it. What be grateful for that, but I am not going to they said, in a release from the current Leader give in to that temptation. No, today I do not of the Opposition, was: feel like giving in to that temptation. We are beginning our program to reshape our That remark, put in context, will give you election policy with an overhaul of our small the answer that I have just given you. If you business commitment. are asking me whether those words were In other words, they are basically saying, ‘We uttered, I have never denied that. Those words have got it wrong so far. We have delivered were uttered. If you are asking me whether nothing so we are going to have another look they give a true and proper reflection of the at what else we might be able to offer them.’ whole answer to the question, in context of That is where they stand. the speech given, the answer to that is that they most definitely do not. The endorsements that have come in from third parties have really been quite over- DISTINGUISHED VISITORS whelming. The Pharmacy Guild says, The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw the ‘Government keeps faith with small business.’ attention of honourable senators to the pres- It goes on: ence in the chamber of a parliamentary This can only lead to the growth of the small delegation from the United Kingdom, led by business sector and an increase in employment for the Deputy Speaker of the House of Com- young Australians. mons, Mr Michael Lord, MP. The Service Station Association said it was On behalf of honourable senators, I have the most comprehensive small business pleasure in welcoming you to the Senate and package in history and that thousands of trust that your visit to this country will be service stations would be saved from closure both informative and enjoyable. and their employees saved from unemploy- Honourable Senators—Hear, hear! ment. The Australian Retailers Association QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE said it provided a firm basis for fair tenancy laws. The Australian Business Chamber said Small Business: Fair Trading it would address most of the areas of break- Senator BOSWELL—My question is to down between big and small business. The Senator Alston, the minister representing the Council of Small Business Organisations of Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7327

Australia said the government has demonstra- gets a chance and blaming him in every bly committed itself to the small end of town. respect for keeping the records of the Labor ASBA said the small business community Party and not disclosing them. In other words, could hardly have hoped for more and, ‘He it is absolute chaos on the other side both in has earned our confidence.’ The Democrats terms of management and in terms of policy. have given it the thumbs up. The Motor Yesterday’s announcement will be seen by Trades Association said Australia will be a the small business community for what it is. better place to do business as a result of these This is game, set and match. This is a very measures. one-sided contest because the other side But perhaps the most glowing endorsement simply has not turned up on the field and we of all came from Stephen Martin. We are have delivered the goods. We have recognised particularly grateful to him because he hap- small business as a core constituency; it is a pens to be the federal minister for small great shame that Labor does not appreciate business and customs. the benefits that are there. (Time expired) Senator Knowles—Shadow minister! Unemployment Senator ALSTON—Shadow minister; I agree, an absolute pipedream, my apologies. Senator WEST—My question is directed What Mr Martin had to say was that he gave to the Minister for Employment, Education, a qualified welcome to the Howard govern- Training and Youth Affairs, Senator ment’s fair trading inquiry report. Then he is Vanstone. Can the minister confirm that the quoted in the paper as congratulating Mr unemployment figure is stagnant at 8.7 per Reith on being able to achieve, through his cent; the long-term unemployment trend cabinet, ‘far more than we anticipated’. In figure is 247,700 for August 1997, which is other words, he is basically saying, ‘We could a 23-month high, up by 32,000 since May not have done anything like that. We are 1996; 37,500 full-time jobs have been lost in amazed at how far you have gone and how one month alone; and 60,000 full-time jobs successful you have been.’ have been lost since the Howard govern- ment’s August 1996 budget? Does the minis- That represents the low watermark of policy ter think this pathetic record—and I use the bankruptcy in this country; to find an opposi- minister’s words—constitutes a ‘big tick for tion that has had 13 years in government and effort’? now 18 months in opposition still wallowing around talking about reviews, having a bit of Senator VANSTONE—I thank the senator a think, trying to play catch-up politics and for the question. I can confirm, as any Aus- suggesting that somehow they forced us into tralian would be able to confirm for you, that these initiatives. The reality is that they are the labour market remains flat. I can confirm not interested in policy. We know what they for you the various levels of unemployment; are interested in: they are interested in every I do not have the long-term unemployed conceivable distraction. Some people, like figures with me. You ask: does that in itself Senator Sherry, might have other interests in merit a big tick? You are obviously in the mind but most of them over there are not habit of misunderstanding what has been said. interested in policy at all. I was asked a question quite specifically at Time is running out, let me tell you. You the National Press Club last week or the week are not going to get anywhere at the next before and I clearly indicated that the govern- election if you think that you can somehow ment is not satisfied with the level of employ- drift in there with a leader who has no idea ment and unemployment, and the government what he stands for, who clearly does not feel is very concerned and determined to ensure confident in the role, who has the young turks that the level of unemployment comes down. absolutely flouting his authority and big- What I did say is that the electorate, which noting themselves on every possible occasion is completely understandably impatient and and who has Simon Crean simply ignoring fed up with long-term unemployment, is him, pointing the finger at him whenever he looking for change, is looking for improve- 7328 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 ment and will be looking very seriously at to prosper. It takes time for the confidence to what any government did and, in our case, come back. After the devastating effect that has done to remedy the problem that we faced the recession we had to have, that your Prime coming into government. They will give us, Minister said we had to have, had on jobs, on in my view, a big tick for the enormous effort long-term unemployed, on young Australians we have put into repairing the mess that you and on business confidence, it is no surprise left behind. Just in case you have forgotten that people are still apprehensive about the mess that you left behind—we had 13 whether—(Time expired) years of your government, Senator; you were not here for all of them—you had an average Senator WEST—Madam President, I ask unemployment rate of about 8.5 for 13 years. a supplementary question. Will the minister And after 18 months you think you have concede that her own policies have contri- some credibility, a shred of it, left to come in buted to the crisis by strangling community here and ask this government what it is doing confidence and that she has mishandled the about unemployment when you created the jobs crisis? problem. You had 11.2 per cent as an unem- Senator VANSTONE—Senator, what you ployment rate, which was the highest since do not understand is that, if we were not the Depression. That is what you achieved. elected to government, do you know what you Do you think that gives you any credibility would have done when you came in? You whatsoever to come in here and ask us about would have covered your eyes, put your head what we are doing? in the sand and hoped, as you have for the Let me just explain to you a number of the last 13 years, that everything would get better. things we have done. We have put the budget In fact, it would not have. Things would be back into the black. If you do not understand much, much worse now if we were not the value of that, I do not think that in the elected to government, if we had not made few minutes available to me I can possibly the hard decisions we have made, which are give you enough lessons to clue you in. But important decisions and which Australia will you must understand the benefit that is to the reap the benefit of. economy and the opportunity it creates in You can sit over there while we are waiting terms of the lower interest rates that come for for the change to come through and you can the business sector to in fact bloom and cross your fingers and hope it does not come, generate more real jobs. You must understand but let me assure you of this: we have made that. the appropriate changes. The economic We have put an enormous effort into growth and the employment growth will freeing up the industrial relations system. You come, and you will be smiling on the other probably do not agree with what we have side of your face when it does. done. I am sure you don’t, because you liked Travel Allowances a nice, tight system that kept you with 8.5 per cent unemployment for 13 years, and you Senator CALVERT—My question is to were happy with that. We are not happy with the Assistant Treasurer and Minister repre- that, and that is why we changed the indus- senting the Minister for Administrative Ser- trial relations system. We have made a num- vices. I refer to Senator Sherry’s incredible ber of significant changes in relation to small attempt to explain himself in the Senate a business. Small business is where the jobs are short while ago in relation to claims in excess in fact going to come from. We made a of $40,000 for capital city stays in Hobart. Is number of significant changes in that respect. the senator entitled to claim city rates of travelling allowance when staying at his It is true that it is not always easy—in fact mother’s country home 50 kilometres from it is not possible—for a government to simply Hobart, as claimed by Senator Sherry? turn on a switch and generate more real jobs. Government does not generate real jobs; gov- Senator KEMP—Thank you to Senator ernment creates the environment for business Calvert for what can only be described as a Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7329 fairly topical question that has arisen in the Senator Schacht—Either put up or shut up. last day or so. Senator KEMP—I can inform you, Senator Senator Faulkner—Why did they give it Calvert, that the Remuneration Tribunal has to a dope like you to answer? determined that senators and members are The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator! entitled to a capital city rate of travelling allowance when staying overnight in a capital Senator KEMP—We all listened with great city. interest— Senator Schacht—A devastating attack The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator! from Elmer Fudd! Is this the fightback? Senator Faulkner—The Elmer Fudd of the The PRESIDENT—Order! There are far Liberal Party. too many interjections on my left. It is totally The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Kemp! disorderly. Senator KEMP—Very sensitive, Senator Senator Cook—Come on! Put up or shut Faulkner. up! The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator Kemp! The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator Kemp! I have called you to order, Senator Kemp! Opposition senators interjecting— Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam President, but— The PRESIDENT—There are far too many interjections and they are totally disorderly! The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, resume your seat! I have called you four times to Senator KEMP—I can understand why the resume your seat while I ask Senator Faulkner Labor Party does not wish to hear this, but to cease interjecting as he is doing at the they will be hearing a lot on this issue, let me present time. tell you. Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam In making his claims for travelling allow- President. As I was saying, it has become a ance, Senator Sherry has consistently speci- very topical issue, and I think a number of fied Hobart in relation to Tasmania. The people would have listened with considerable Remuneration Tribunal does not define a interest to Senator Sherry’s efforts at lunch- capital city. In processing claims for payment time to extricate himself from the mess that of travelling allowance, the Department of he has got himself into and indeed the Labor Administrative Services accepts the claimant’s Party into. advice that it is a capital city. That is the advice from the acting Minister for Adminis- Senator Carr—Is this the best you can do? trative Services. He concludes—and this is What a miserable performance. important for Labor Party standards; just tune The PRESIDENT—Order on my left! in: Opposition senators interjecting— Senator Sherry in his travelling claims specified Hobart, not Opossum Bay— The PRESIDENT—Order! Opposition senators interjecting— Senator KEMP—The issue goes wider than Senator Sherry. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Kemp, resume your seat! Senator Mackay—Is this the big fight- back? Is this the big throw-back? Senator Hill—A point of order! Senator KEMP—It goes to the standards The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Kemp, of Mr Kim Beazley, the Labor Party leader. when I ask you to resume your seat, you So it is an issue which involves not only should do so. Senator Sherry but Mr Kim Beazley and what Senator Hill—Madam President, on a point sorts of standards he wishes to apply to the of order, it might be embarrassing to the Labor Party. Because of this topical interest, Labor Party, but other senators are entitled to I have sought advice from the acting Minister hear the answer. The Labor Party is deliber- for Administrative Services on this matter. ately shouting down Senator Kemp, out of 7330 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 embarrassment, presumably. If they were not Unemployment embarrassed about it, they would be quiet and The PRESIDENT—I call Senator Murphy. listen to the answer. Senator MURPHY—Thank you, Madam Senator Faulkner—On the point of order, President— I point out to you, Madam President,—even Senator Calvert—I rise on a point of though you have called me, unfairly in my order. view, and a number of other opposition senators to order—the cacophony of noise Senator Faulkner—Too slow, Calvert! coming from the government side during The PRESIDENT—Order! I had called question time today. So, Madam President, I Senator Murphy before you stood, Senator. just ask you to be even-handed as you apply Senator Faulkner interjecting— the standing orders. Senator Calvert—I ask that the Leader of The PRESIDENT—The level of noise in the Opposition in the Senate withdraw that the chamber is far too high and will not be comment. tolerated. I call Senator Kemp. The PRESIDENT—I did not hear what he Senator Carr—Elmer Fudd; here we go. said. The PRESIDENT—Senator Carr, I have Senator Calvert—I did. It was unparlia- just commented on the noise in the chamber mentary, Madam President. and would ask you to remain silent. The PRESIDENT—I did not hear. If Senator Faulkner has made an unparliamen- Senator Conroy—You are defending tary remark, he should withdraw it. frauds. They are defrauding the Common- wealth. Senator Faulkner—I would not make an unparliamentary comment, but if I did I The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy, you would certainly withdraw it. are defying the ruling that I have just made. Senator MURPHY—My question is Senator KEMP—I can understand the directed to the Minister for Employment, Edu- sensitivity on that side of the chamber. So the cation, Training and Youth Affairs, Senator issue boils down to this, and it is a classic Vanstone. Minister, I refer you to the latest issue of standards: it is up to Senator Sherry unemployment figures, which were cited by to decide whether it is appropriate for him to my colleague Senator West in her earlier stay over 40 kilometres out of Hobart at question to you. Is it a fact that you have now Opossum Bay with his mother in his mother’s conceded that your budgetary policies have home while claiming he is in Hobart at $300 contributed to the perpetuation of this crisis a night. And, of course, in addition to the and that it is, in part, due to your govern- $300 a night there is the cost of the Comcar ment’s expenditure cuts? Is it also a fact that to Opossum Bay and back again. So what we the Treasury conceded in the 1996 budget now have is a whole host of unanswered papers that your labour market deregulation questions. The first question is: what are the would do little to alleviate unemployment? standards of the Labor Party? Is it appropriate The PRESIDENT—Order! Would those for Senator Sherry to claim for Hobart when senators who are using their headphones turn he is staying at Opossum Bay? That is the the volume down on them so that the pro- first question. ceedings in this chamber may be heard? The second question is: how many nights Senator VANSTONE—Senator, I thank did Senator Sherry, while claiming for Hobart, you for the question and I simply repeat in stay at Opossum Bay? That was one of the part what I have said to Senator West, who very big gaps in the quarter of an hour, I have appears to have gone to sleep—never mind, to say, that we heard from Senator Sherry at she will come back to this world—on unem- lunchtime today. What we do know—(Time ployment issues. She’s back now; welcome expired) back, Senator. Senator, what you need to Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7331 understand is you have got no credibility than you ever had or would dream of intro- whatsoever in talking to the Australian people ducing. We have got assistance that will be about unemployment. Perhaps you do not tailored individually to assist unemployed understand why you were not re-elected. people. We have reduced red tape for small Perhaps that penny has not dropped—13 years business. We have reinvigorated the appren- with unemployment at an average of 8.5 per ticeships and traineeships. We are creating cent or 8.7 per cent. It was stuck at 8.5 or pathways from schools to employment and, 8.7. You were spectacularly unsuccessful. importantly, we are focusing on literacy and The PRESIDENT—Order! There is too numeracy in our schools. much noise in the chamber outside the area in Senator Cook—Where are the jobs? which senators are sitting. Would those Senator Schacht—Has the drought broken wishing to have conversations please leave. yet? Is the rain coming? Senator VANSTONE—While you were so spectacularly unsuccessful at fixing the Senator Mackay—Why have you cut unemployment problem, you were spectacu- funding? larly successful at running up debt and putting Senator VANSTONE—If that is not this government into debt. That is what you enough for you, I will table and seek leave to were successful at doing—making the prob- incorporate in Hansard a summary of the lem worse, making future generations pay for OECD jobs strategy, which I referred to your incapacity to be fiscally responsible. earlier. I will take the opportunity to point out That was your attitude: ‘Oh, we’re in govern- strategy No. 5 and strategy No. 6. Senator ment so we’ll spend, spend, spend. When we Mackay, for your benefit, No. 5 says: get kicked out, someone else will have to fix Make wage and labour costs more flexible to the problem—we’ll leave it to them. Let’s do reflect local conditions and individual skills. everything we can to maximise our opportuni- We have done that. We have worked along ties to stay in. Let’s walk away from the those lines. And No. 6 says: difficult decisions. In doing so, let’s walk away from the semi-skilled, from the low- Reform employment security provisions. skilled and from the unemployed.’ That is For those of you who do not understand what what you did when you walked away from that means, I will spell it out for you again. making the tough decisions. We have got a That refers to unfair dismissal legislation, clear and coherent strategy— which we have also fixed and which, in the Senator Cook—Higher unemployment speech, I also said was fixed. So for the good under you. senator’s benefit, I seek leave to table and incorporate in Hansard a summary of the Senator VANSTONE—for fixing up the OECD jobs strategy, and on each measure mess we were elected to fix up—the mess this government gets a much bigger tick than that you left behind. What are you talking the previous government ever did. for? You were in the cabinet that created this problem. Leave granted. Senator Cook—That is right and we had The document read as follows— lower unemployment than you. The OECD Jobs Strategy Senator VANSTONE—You were into 1. Sound macro economic policy: spend, spend, spend. sustainable, non-inflationary growth. Senator Cook—Where are the jobs? 2. Enhance the creation and diffusion of techno- Senator VANSTONE—Senators, let me logical know how. help you through this. The policy goes this 3. Increase flexibility of working time through way: we need a balanced budget. We are voluntary agreement of workers and employ- looking to low interest rates. We have got low ers. inflation. We have shifted to a flexible work- 4. Facilitate creation and expansion of enterpris- place relations system—much more flexible es. 7332 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

5. Make wage and labour costs more flexible to government that has made the hard decisions reflect local conditions and individual skills. that you gutless people were never ever 6. Reform employment security provisions. prepared to make. 7. Strengthen active labour market policies: Literacy Standards: Learning Disabilities improve their effectiveness. Senator ALLISON—My question is to the 8. Raise skill levels by reforming education and training. minister representing the Minister for Schools, Vocational Education and Training. Minister, 9. Reform unemployment and related benefit systems and their interactions with the tax everyone in Australia knows that Dr Kemp system: says that 30 per cent of students are not capable of reading or writing. Leaving aside improve work incentives for the moment the highly suspect modelling achieve fundamental equity goals. he used to make these wild claims, is the 10. Enhance product market competition. government aware that in the US and Canada Senator MURPHY—Madam President, I it is estimated that more than 10 per cent of ask a supplementary question. Minister, students are affected by specific learning talking about walking away from things, do disabilities such as dyslexia and dysnomia? you intend to stand by your comments made Minister, what research has your government on the 7.30 Report last year that if the undertaken to determine the number of Aus- government could not substantially reduce tralian students who have diagnosable learn- unemployment by the time of the next elec- ing disabilities and how many children in tion you would not deserve to be re-elected? Australia are affected by attention deficit Senator VANSTONE—Senator, if I disorder and other disadvantages which cause thought that you did not keep up with things learning difficulties? I would have personally sent you an invitation Senator VANSTONE—Senator, it will not to the National Press Club the week before be a surprise to you to know that I simply last and you would have had the opportunity cannot give you that information off pat. I to have this matter cleared up as well. What certainly do not ever intend to try to carry I said there— around in my head those sorts of figures. You Senator Bob Collins—We heard your come back to the same point every time, answer before; it was pathetic. don’t you, Senator? You never want any criticism of things as they are. You would Senator VANSTONE—What I said there like a plastic bubble put over schooling and was that in the normal term of a government education. All you ever want for it is more you would, of course, expect an improvement. money. That is all you ever want. You never I do not know when the next election is going want to look at improvements in outcomes to be. I went on to say— because that might mean something has to Senator Bob Collins—That is what you change. It might mean something you do not said at the press club. agree with. You are the sort of person who is Senator VANSTONE—What if the elec- afraid of change. I feel sorry for you in that tion was in three months—a sudden double respect because change is a part of life and dissolution? Would you expect it to be fixed you are going to have to live with it. then? I went on to say that the electorate is You come back to the literacy aspect, understandably impatient because they got fed Senator. I repeat what I said to you the other up with you lot telling them you were pulling day: irrespective of what benchmarks you the right levers—you were pulling something, might wish to choose—and we could argue but not the right levers—champagne bubbling about the benchmarks; there are different over, everything was okay; and you never views about what are the appropriate bench- fixed the problem and they are fed up with it. marks—I think I caught you nodding the Understandably! They will look to see what other day when I said: nobody that I know, we have done and they will judge us very and I would hope no senator or member, carefully. They will see that we have been a would suggest that we should sit back and be Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7333 happy with the literacy and numeracy levels is happy with the levels as they are now, then that there are in Australia. she should come out and say so. She should Do you think we should sit back and be come out and say to the parents of kids who happy with the levels as they are? Well, do not make the appropriate grades, ‘You Senator, do you? You have got the chance tell don’t have to worry. This is an acceptable the nation. What do you think? Do you think standard.’ we should be happy with the literacy and If that is what the Democrats want to say, numeracy levels as they are? You think they let them come out and say that. But this are a laughing matter, do you? You think it government unequivocally does not say that. is a laughing matter that we have got kids What we say is that the literacy and numeracy who leave school not being able to read and levels must be improved. What Dr Kemp has write properly? Is that what you really think? said to the states is, ‘In order for you to be Senator Faulkner—I rise on a point of continually funded in relation to these matters order, Madam President. I draw your attention you will have to come up with a plan to show to the fact that Senator Vanstone appears to us how you are going to improve the literacy be having a personal conversation with and numeracy of Australian students.’ I Senator Allison. cannot believe that there is anybody in this place, or in the other house, who could Senator Alston—Unlike you. possibly disagree with the government’s Senator Faulkner—Well, I was not having intention in that respect. a personal conversation with Senator Allison. Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I I am certainly very particular whom I have ask a supplementary question. Again, today, personal conversations with, and I wouldn’t I did not ask a question about funding. I am have one with you. I point out to you, Madam certainly not afraid of change. Can I suggest President, clearly, as you know, Senator that it is fairly clear that this government has Vanstone is breaching the standing orders. no systematic way of identifying the size of You have referred to the standing orders on the problem for children with specific learning one or two occasions in this question time. I disabilities or other learning difficulties. My draw that to your attention and ask you to ask supplementary question is this: If you could, her to address her comments through the would you care, and do you care, that, by chair. blaming teachers and threatening to remove The PRESIDENT—Your remarks should funds from government schools which do not be addressed to the chair, Senator. comply with Dr Kemp’s outmoded ideas, Dr Kemp is doing nothing to address the real Senator VANSTONE—Thank you very problems that some children experience in our much, Madam President. I do apologise for schools? not directing my remarks through you. Senator VANSTONE—I am almost lost Senator Faulkner—That is all right. for words that Senator Allison could possibly Apology accepted, Mandy. suggest that her position—which is: do not do Senator VANSTONE—I certainly do hope, anything that upsets anybody—of leaving Madam President, that you take every oppor- literacy and numeracy levels as they are is a tunity to insist that people, when they ask more caring position than this government’s questions and want to interject, address their position. It is precisely because this govern- remarks through the chair—people such as ment does care that we are determined to Senator Faulkner. raise the levels of literacy and numeracy for The simple point is this. The senator raises Australian children. We will not be bullied the question of literacy. The senator clearly out of that by any tactics the Democrats wish wants to get stuck into Dr Kemp. What she to use. has to face up to is that the literacy and Senator Allison—Madam President, I raise numeracy levels in Australia should be in- a point of order. I believe I am being creased. If she does not agree with that, if she misrepresented by what the minister is saying. 7334 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

I did not make those remarks. I would ask electorate was completely fed up with being you to direct the minister to answer my given promises, promises and no delivery. question rather than make comments about what I might have said. With respect to labour market reform, I clearly indicated that that was a part of the The PRESIDENT—Keep the question in OECD job strategy. What I was saying was mind, Minister, as you are answering. that you need to act on all of these fronts; Senator VANSTONE—Certainly, Madam you need to have the basics right in relation President, I am very pleased to do so. In to macro-economic settings; you need to relation to the other part of Senator Allison’s generate more technological knowledge and question, I did not say that the government disseminate it and so on down through not all had no information or did not care about of the points but including industrial relations. getting the information. I simply said that I You do need to constantly work on a freer did not have that information at hand. I will industrial relations system. happily get what information I can and give That does not mean that you say, ‘There- it to the senator. fore, we’re going to do more today than we Unemployment: Job Security did yesterday.’ Of course, you make some changes and you see what impact they have Senator O’BRIEN—My question is to the and then you work on them again. You do not Minister for Employment, Education, Training change day by day by day by day. But one and Youth Affairs. Minister, I refer to your key aspect of the OECD job strategy is a freer publicly stated view on industrial relations industrial relations system. That is something reform and its impact on unemployment. At you always have to keep your eye on. It is an a CEDA dinner on 11 September you stated integral part of a 10-point job strategy en- that Australia needed a ‘freer labour market’. dorsed by the OECD. That is one key aspect Given that this call for a second wave of of it—a freer industrial relations system. labour market reform was made in direct contradiction to the government’s stated view Senator O’BRIEN—Madam President, I that the Workplace Relations Act should be ask a supplementary question. Given that you given time to work, do you believe that a have already referred today to your well- second wave of reform is needed? If so, what known views on another aspect of your do you believe it should be? industrial relations agenda, unfair dismissals, Senator VANSTONE—Senator, I refer you I ask: are you aware that the implementation in part to the answer given to Senator of the government’s unfair dismissal provi- Mackay. Let me take you through it quite sions will deprive one-third of Australian slowly so that you understand. There are 10 workers of any protection whatsoever and will key points in the OECD jobs strategy—two deliver to those one-third of Australian work- of which I just highlighted before for Senator ers precisely what you want—that is, lessened Mackay. What I indicated to the assembled job security? Is that what the government members of CEDA and guests was that the intends with its unfair dismissal laws? government puts a lot of store in the OECD Senator VANSTONE—What the govern- jobs strategy. I clearly indicated to them that ment wants is to have an industrial relations you cannot do just one of those aspects and system that does not put disincentives there to not the others; you have to be working on all take on new people. That is what you did. the fronts together. There is no simple magic Not you yourself, Senator. You were not a solution. part of the previous government that was such Not you, Senator, because you were not a disgrace and such a failure. No doubt, in here, but the previous government used to about 13 or 20 years, when you lot get back, pretend that here was a statement—Creative you will still be here and make a significant Nation, Working Nation, Innovative Nation— contribution. You will not be up the back and each of these things was going to solve there; you will be down the front replacing the problem. They never did. That is why the some of these has-beens, undoubtedly. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7335

At that point, you will understand that one outcome. It is not easy to achieve, but we way to discourage business to take people on believe it can be achieved. That is why so is to make it very hard for them to swap much effort is being put in. someone over and get a new person. If some- In addition—you referred to the audit, but one is dismissed and another person is taken there has been another study as well—the on, it does not affect the level of employment. issues of world heritage have had further But what you do by having these tight indus- consideration, particularly relating to areas trial relations systems is create disincentives which might have world heritage values. That for business to take people on. Your col- report has been taken into account as well in leagues did that and we fixed it. (Time ex- finalisation of the RFA. It is true that negotia- pired) tions are well advanced. We hope we will be Tasmanian Forests able to reach an agreement with Tasmania in the near future, which will achieve the objec- Senator BROWN—My question is on a tives as I have just put them to you. loftier matter than some of those earlier on, and it goes to the Minister for the Environ- Senator BROWN—I ask a supplementary ment and Minister representing the Prime question, Madam President. Will those areas Minister. Is the fact that cabinet is meeting in identified as having world heritage value be Launceston mean that next Tuesday is D-day protected? Secondly, is it true that tens of for Tasmania’s forests? Is the minister aware millions of dollars are already being ear- of the report entitled Tasmanian world heri- marked for forests already protected, scraps tage values data audit, which summarises the such as roadside reserves and logging roads views of the national and international auth- for the woodchip industry? I reiterate the first orities on the world heritage forests in Tas- question: is this matter to be signed off at the mania, and which was prepared in part by cabinet meeting in Launceston on Tuesday, Commonwealth officers? If so, why is the D-Day—‘D’ for destruction for Tasmania’s Howard government moving to hand those forests? same forests—such as, Beech Creek, the Senator HILL—What I am anticipating— southern forests, Great Western Tiers and Senator Abetz—‘D’ is for deadhead, for Tarkine—across to the woodchip industry in you. violation of the World Heritage Convention? Is it a fact that the government is proposing Senator Brown—I rise on a point of order, to hand tens of millions of dollars to the Madam President. I object to that nasty woodchip industry and Forestry Tasmania— interjection from the Tasmanian senator opposite. He should know better. I ask him to Senator Abetz—Madam President, I raise withdraw it. a point of order. The PRESIDENT—I did not hear the The PRESIDENT—Senator Brown, it is interjection. If there was an unparliamentary not in order to display posters in the chamber. expression used, it should be withdrawn. Senator Abetz—So much for lofty behav- Senator Abetz—Madam President, I do iour! (Time expired) confess that I said ‘"D" for deadhead, for Senator HILL—They are beautiful forests, you.’ I addressed it to that side of the cham- and they are well presented in the poster, ber. The only person to identify with the Senator Brown. Thank you for a copy. I also comment was Senator Brown. I think that welcome the question because it is a long speaks for itself, and I withdraw. time since you have asked an environment Senator HILL—Senator Brown will be question in this place. What we are seeking aware that in relation to East Gippsland we is an outcome that will provide for a compre- were satisfied that world heritage values could hensive, adequate and representative reserve be protected from within the reserved area. I system in Tasmania together with resource am certainly approaching the Tasmanian security—in other words, a good jobs out- challenge in the same light. In other words, come together with a good conservation these reports are seriously being taken into 7336 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 account and our obligations under the world there you would have started to get just a heritage convention and legislation will be glimmer—just the tip of the iceberg—of the fully met. rotten wasted money in Working Nation In relation to money, it is reasonable to which your government presided over. That assume that the Commonwealth is prepared to would have given you a better idea of why put in new money, despite the fact that money we are shifting away. is scarce, towards preserving the conservation I would think that, since you are interested values of forests in Tasmania. We are doing in public administration, you would actually so because we think a good conservation support our policies; I think you went away outcome in Tasmania is vitally important. We and paid to do a higher degree in that respect. are also interested in a good jobs outcome. From the party that does not believe in We believe that we can achieve a sustainable students being able to pay, you nonetheless resource for industry consistent with good did that. If you are interested in public admin- conservation outcomes. (Time expired) istration, you would clearly look at the millions of dollars that were poured down the Public Employment Placement Enterprise drain under Working Nation and you would Senator BISHOP—My question is ad- say, ‘Why doesn’t somebody develop a better dressed to the Minister for Employment, system? Why doesn’t somebody develop a Education, Training and Youth Affairs. Is it system with more accountability than there is not true that the 1997 budget allocated $180 in Working Nation? Why doesn’t somebody million over two years for the financing of a develop a system that delivers better out- public employment placement enterprise, comes to unemployed people? Why doesn’t PEPE, and that you subsequently withdrew somebody develop a system that gives a the legislation establishing the market into choice of provider to unemployed people?’ which the PEPE was to operate? In June this We would have been there saying, ‘We’ve year departmental officers were unable to done that, we’ve done that, we’ve done that.’ answer questions regarding the financing It was unwise of you to refer to the SPCL arrangement of the PEPE or the call on the contract because, in fact, it is a Working Australian taxpayer from this venture. You, Nation style contract. Minister, have made it very clear that the Senator Carr—Oh, yes. Who are you PEPE will not be guaranteed even a minimum kidding? share of the new employment services market. What guarantees does the parliament have Senator VANSTONE—Yes, it is. It is the that the $180 million will not go the same sort of thing that people on your side of the way as the $2.8 million ship of fools? chamber were in up to their necks. It would be very interesting— Senator VANSTONE—I thank the senator for his question. I just advise him and others Opposition senators interjecting— that until we have a name for the corporatised The PRESIDENT—Order! The level of CES, we are not referring to it as ‘pep’. It is noise is far too high. actually referred to as the public employment Senator VANSTONE—I am very interest- placement enterprise and generally referred to ed in the SPCL contract. I have indicated on by most people familiar with this subject as every occasion it has been raised that I want PEPE, pronounced ‘pepi’. I would have to get to the bottom of what went wrong and understood earlier what you were talking the process issues. That is why I referred the about had you used that pronunciation. matter to the Auditor-General, and we will get Senator, you should have been at the to the bottom of that matter. estimates committee hearing this morning Senator, if you understood Working Nation, because you would have discovered just how you would understand that SPCL was a sensitive the opposition is about its own Working Nation style contract. That is what performance under Working Nation in relation happened in Working Nation all the time. to labour market programs. Had you been Someone put a submission in. Was the Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7337 minister’s office involved? We would like to The PRESIDENT—Order! There are know. Sometimes members with marginal persistent breaches of the standing orders by seats might have been interested in having a a number of people, and it should cease. working nation program flopped into their Senator VANSTONE—The PEPE will electorate. We would like to know a bit more have to compete for work against private about that as well. sector operators and community operators. You can be assured that the SPCL contract This government, as I have said before, will is a transition contract between Working always be more accountable to parliament Nation and the new and improved employ- than you ever, ever were. ment services market, which will have much stronger accountability, much closer financial Working Nation: Employment Programs checks and much better outcomes to unem- Senator TROETH—My question is direct- ployed Australians than you could ever dream ed to the Minister for Employment, Educa- of delivering. tion, Training and Youth Affairs and is a I advise you, Senator, that it is not true to logical follow-on to the matters we have just say that all the money under the SPCL con- been discussing. Will the minister explain tract was wasted. Even if the entire value of how, in contrast to Labor’s Working Nation, that contract was wasted, it pails into insig- the new employment services arrangements nificance in relation to the sizes of some provide transparency in government expendi- contracts, which we would like to discuss this ture? Will the minister also explain how afternoon, in comparison with SPCL. So we paying employment services providers on the help you put it into perspective: it pails into basis of job outcomes rather than training or insignificance when compared with the work experience will, one, get a better result millions of dollars that your minister simply for Australia’s unemployed, who are the threw down the drain. (Time expired) victims of Labor’s economic mismanagement and, two, provide better value for money for Senator BISHOP—Madam President, I ask Australia’s taxpayers? a supplementary question. Minister, you have spent four minutes avoiding answering the Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator central question that was asked, so I will ask Troeth for the question. She took a strong it again in a different way. What guarantees interest a long time ago in Working Nation does the parliament have to ensure value to and was one of the first to spot the flaws that taxpayers from this $180 million? Will the were there, the process issues that were there PEPE be accountable to the estimates commit- and the capacity for slush funding by Labor tees, or, as indicated by the department, will in marginal seats. So it is quite appropriate information about the practices of the PEPE that she asks this question. be treated as commercial-in-confidence? Opposition senators interjecting— Senator VANSTONE—Senator, I am The PRESIDENT—Order! I have already sorry; it is just very difficult to answer ques- pointed out that there have been persistent tions to someone who clearly does not under- and wilful breaches of the standing orders stand the issue that they are asking about. during question time today and it should You clearly do not understand. What I can cease. tell you, Senator, is that the new employment services market will deliver a much, much Senator VANSTONE—The answer to the better service to unemployed Australians than senator’s question is yes, yes and yes. you ever did. The new PEPE— Senator Schacht—Well, sit down. Senator Bishop—What about answering The PRESIDENT—Order! the questions. Senator VANSTONE—I know what you Senator Schacht—She has answered it, are on about—protecting the jobs of your Madam President. union mates. The PRESIDENT—Order! 7338 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Senator VANSTONE—The opposition that asks questions and has no interest what- members have shown an interest in the SPCL soever in the answers and, at the same time, contract. As I have indicated to you, Madam disregards your rulings so flagrantly. President, I am determined to get to the The PRESIDENT—I regard my rulings as bottom of the matter. That is why I referred having been ignored throughout question time the matter to the Auditor-General. today by senators on my left. It was very interesting at the estimates Senator Jacinta Collins—Does she live in committee this morning when government Tasmania? members sought to put this matter in perspec- tive, to really look at the SPCL contract and The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Collins! see how it compared with projects under the Senator Bob Collins—I didn’t say any- previous government. After all, if they were thing. so good, this is an appropriate comparison to The PRESIDENT—Senator Jacinta make. It is an appropriate standard to judge Collins. the SPCL contract by. What happened then was that Labor simply went into panic mode. Senator VANSTONE—The contract had I do not think they understand that the SPCL tighter guidelines than Working Nation, but contract was a Working Nation style contract. that clearly was not enough. It was really a It had tighter guidelines than Working Nation, contract that is in the transition period be- but clearly that was not enough. tween Working Nation and the new and much improved employment services market. Senator Newman—Madam President, I raise a point of order. I draw your attention to What happened was that Senator Faulkner what appears to be a concerted campaign to was absolutely determined this morning to drown Senator Vanstone’s voice from being ensure that the truth about his government’s heard, at the same time— performance in Working Nation stayed co- vered up. That is what this morning was all Opposition senators interjecting— about. It was a very ugly sight. None of you The PRESIDENT—Order! Just a moment, would have liked to have been there, for those Senator Newman. We will have silence while of you who were not there. He went into a the point of order is enunciated. very ugly bullyboy mode—absolutely bully- Senator Newman—as clearly, fragrantly boy mode. Very few people think it is admir- disregarding the number of times— able at an estimates committee— Opposition senators—Ha, ha! Fragrantly! Senator Faulkner—We are both ugly, Amanda. Senator Alston—There they go again. The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, I The PRESIDENT—Order! I have already have spoken to you a number of times today pointed out that there have been persistent about shouting while sitting at the table. It has breaches of the standing orders throughout been copied by a number of your senators question time. behind, and I regard your behaviour as totally Senator Faulkner—Even for you, Josie, disorderly and in breach of my rulings. that was a shocker. Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator raise a point of order. Let me say this to you: Faulkner! I find it quite offensive when one senator Senator Newman—Madam President, I happens to be singled out when there is think we have just seen another example of rowdiness on both sides of the chamber, the Leader of the Opposition, together with including government senators, Madam his chorus line, using loud male, arrogant President, which you consistently ignore in voices to drown women’s voices in this this chamber. chamber. I think it is intolerable that Senator Senator Alston—Madam President, I point Vanstone has been subjected to this noise out to you that this unctuous, deceitful and throughout question time by an opposition disgraceful behaviour is what sets the pattern Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7339 for the rest of the opposition. If he is elected they tendered for, as they will be in the new leader, he is elected to set an example, and system? Were they largely tendered for? No, the example he is setting is of sitting back in is the answer. his chair, showing complete and utter con- tempt for your position and encouraging and What were the outcomes? Were they good inciting his colleagues to drown out those outcomes? How would they compare with who have been asked questions on this side. SPCL? They do not want to know the answer Madam President, you should not tolerate it, to that. Here is another very interesting one: and I invite you to carefully consider whether what was the previous minister’s involvement standing order 203 ought not to be invoked in in Working Nation programs, this big slush the very near future. fund to put money around? Did the previous minister’s office have any involvement in Senator Faulkner—Further to the point of Working Nation projects? Wouldn’t we like order, Madam President: I think any member to know the answer to that? With this list of of the opposition would take great offence at questions, you can imagine why Senator any suggestion coming from someone like Faulkner started to thump the table and say, Senator Alston that we treat any ruling that ‘We don’t want to let you talk about this.’ you give with contempt. We do not. We (Time expired) respect the Chair, and we respect you as President. We certainly do not respect Senator Senator Forshaw—Madam President, I Alston or his ilk, and never will. raise a point of order. I would have to ac- The PRESIDENT—There is very little knowledge that, on a couple of occasions, you time left for Senator Vanstone to conclude the have drawn attention to interjections or answer, if she has not already done so. whatever during question time. I understood Senator VANSTONE—Thank you, Madam that the purpose of question time was for President, I certainly have not. It was appal- government ministers to provide answers to ling to watch Senator Faulkner in bullyboy questions, and particularly to provide informa- mode threatening a public servant. Before a tion. It seems that every time government public servant had even answered a question, ministers rise to their feet to answer any Senator Faulkner was there saying, ‘And I question, whether it be from the opposition or remind you, you’re at a parliamentary esti- the government, it consists simply of a tirade mates committee.’ He was trying to put the of abuse about members of the opposition or fear of God into their hearts. And then, even the former government. If government minis- worse, Senator Carr came in with some of his ters are going to continue with that practice, union bullyboy tactics; he literally pushed one can only assume that people on this side Senator Tierney out of the chair and purported of the chamber are really not going to take to take over. The sad thing is that Senator much notice. I ask you, Madam President, to Faulkner and Senator Carr displayed today ask ministers to answer the questions rather their complete lack of understanding of than simply, like Senator Vanstone has done standing orders; they were not entitled to ask all day today, stand up and attack and abuse Senator Tierney to move out of the chair. members of the opposition. Why did they do so? The answer is pretty Senator Hill—Madam President, I wish to simple. It is because Labor is desperate to speak on the point of order. What cheek from cover up what went wrong under Working a frontbencher of a party that came in here Nation. These are the things, if you are today with the deliberate intention of shouting interested in SPCL—and there is quite a long Senator Vanstone down. It must have been a list of them, Senator Troeth, if you get my very creative tactics committee meeting this drift—that Labor does not want to come out morning—‘What will we do? We’ll ask every about Working Nation. We would like to question of Senator Vanstone, and we’ll shout know the answers. Were Working Nation down her answer.’ Very smart! Imaginative! projects in certain marginal seats? Wouldn’t There is a touch of Senator Carr in it, I would it be interesting to look at that issue? Were suspect. 7340 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

All I can say is that it is disappointing that be used in respect of matters which appear to Senator Ray missed the tactics committee this be of a trivial nature or unworthy of the morning, because he would have added a attention of the Senate; and touch of leadership to that meeting, and you (b) the existence of any remedy other than that would have come in with something better power for any act which may be held to be a than you opted for today. It is a disgraceful contempt. performance in this Senate when you deliber- It is not my role at this stage to make any ately determine that no answer will be heard. judgment as to the facts of the matter. You have the cheek to ask the question but Since these provisions were adopted, Presi- you deliberately determined that the answer dents have followed the principle that a will not be listened to. Then you get up at the matter should be given precedence if it is end of question time and complain about it. capable of being held by the Senate to satisfy Madam President, you have been treated criterion (a) and if there is no other readily poorly today in this place. Again, Senator available remedy. Faulkner has shown no leadership on this Several cases alleging improper interference issue. He should respect the fact that you are with witnesses have been given precedence by entitled to have order in this place. You Presidents and referred to the Privileges should not be taken to the line on every Committee and reported on by that commit- occasion. There is no point of order in what tee. In some cases, as a result of recommen- has just been put to you. Madam President, dations by the committee, persons have been this question time should be brought to an found guilty of contempts of the Senate end. I ask that further questions be placed on because of interference with witnesses. No the Notice Paper. penalties have been imposed because the persons have usually withdrawn offending PRIVILEGE actions against witnesses. The PRESIDENT—Senator Bolkus, by a The past rulings of Presidents and reports letter dated 30 September 1997, has raised of the Privileges Committee have made it with me a matter of privilege relating to the clear that allegations that witnesses have been allegation that the Attorney-General (Mr interfered with have always been regarded as Williams) sought to influence the Australian meeting the criteria the President is required Law Reform Commission to dissuade the to consider and have always been taken commission from presenting a submission to extremely seriously by the Privileges Commit- the Joint Committee on Native Title and the tee. In the present case, there are several Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Land elements which should be noted. Fund. First, this is a case of a person who has Under the usual practice, privilege matters been invited to give evidence before a com- relating to joint committees are raised in the mittee but has not yet given evidence. The house which administers the joint committee. Privilege Resolutions of the Senate and the The joint committee on native title is admin- reports of the Privileges Committee make it istered by the Senate. clear that improper interference with a witness Standing order 81 requires that I determine can occur before the witness has given evi- whether a notice of motion to refer a matter dence. of privilege to the Privileges Committee Secondly, the point has been made in public should have precedence, having regard to the controversy about this matter that the Attor- following criteria: ney-General has a statutory power to direct (a) the principle that the Senate’s power to ad- the Australian Law Reform Commission as to judge and deal with contempts should be used the work it is to undertake. Improper interfer- only where it is necessary to provide reason- able protection for the Senate and its commit- ence with a witness, however, can be consti- tees and for senators against improper acts tuted by an act which a person is otherwise tending substantially to obstruct them in the lawfully entitled to take. This has been made performance of their functions, and should not clear by the courts in relation to contempt of Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7341 court and also by the Privileges Committee in ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT relation to interference with Senate witnesses. NOTICE Thirdly, the point has also been made in Travel Allowances public controversy that the Australian Law Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for Reform Commission does not have a statutory Communications, the Information Economy function to give evidence to parliamentary and the Arts) (3.11 p.m.)—I move: committees. The question of whether a wit- ness has been interfered with, however, does That the Senate take note of the answer given by not depend on the nature of any evidence to the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp), to a question without notice asked by Senator Calvert be given or on the power or ability of a today, relating to the travelling allowance claims of witness to give it. This principle also applies senators and members. equally to legal proceedings and parlia- mentary proceedings. This goes to Senator Sherry’s behaviour in relation to travel allowance. Let the facts be As the public controversy indicates, there is understood from the outset. Senator Sherry, some dispute about the facts of this matter. for the last 20 months of the Keating govern- Standing order 81 does not require any ment, was exceeded only by Kim Beazley and assessment of the facts. It is for the Senate to Senator Bolkus in claiming travel allowance. determine whether the matter should be Between March 1993 and February 1997, he referred to the Privileges Committee. If it is claimed travel allowance for 143 nights in referred, it is then the task of the Privileges Hobart, at a cost to taxpayers of $40,700. Committee to inquire into and to find the More than half of the nights for which travel facts of the case. The President determines the allowance has been claimed in Hobart have question of precedence on the matter as been for Friday, Saturday or Sunday nights. submitted by the senator raising the matter. The facts are these: Senator Kemp was asked today whether or not there are rules that I therefore determine that this matter may determine what constitutes capital cities. The have precedence under standing order 81. answer was that the Remuneration Tribunal I table the letter from Senator Bolkus. determines capital cities. It does not define Senator Bolkus may now give a notice of capital cities and the Department of Adminis- motion. trative Services simply takes the advice of the claimant as to where that person was on the Senator BOLKUS (South Australia)—I night in question. give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I What Senator Sherry has done here is very shall move: clearly understood by the taxpayers at large. That the following matter be referred to the He has pretended that he has been in Hobart Standing Committee of Privileges: when in fact he has been at Opossum Bay. He has not yet told us— (1) Whether the Attorney-General (Mr Daryl Williams), or any other person, sought, by force or Senator Mackay—Have you been to threat, or by other improper means, to influence the Opossum Bay? Australian Law Reform Commission, and/or its Senator ALSTON—I know that it happens President, Mr Alan Rose, in respect of evidence to be given, namely the making of a submission to be 50 kilometres from Hobart and, if you and/or the giving of evidence in person, to the were honest, you would not write down Parliamentary Joint Standing Committee on Native Melbourne if you had been staying in Gee- Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander long. You would write down Opossum Bay Land Fund, and whether the Attorney-General, or and you would then argue that it comes any other person, induced the commission, or its within the capital city definition and you President, to refrain from giving that evidence. would allow the department to make a judg- (2) Whether any contempt was committed in ment. You would not simply make a respect of this matter. misleading statement which is clearly de- 7342 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 signed to create the impression that you were look at a pattern—and here you have a very staying in Hobart when you were not. significant and consistent pattern of staying in What is even more important is this— Hobart on a regular basis—and then ask, ‘What is going on here?’ The principle under- Senator Jacinta Collins—What about lying this is that the taxpayers ought to where I live in Melbourne? provide compensation for those who would Senator ALSTON—I could not care less normally incur expenses in staying in capital where you live. The principle that is import- cities, which can be very expensive. ant here is why the taxpayer pays $300 a night. The taxpayer pays it because they take So what you would do is declare that you the view you are entitled to compensation stayed in Hobart if you stayed in Hobart. If because you would normally incur expenses you stayed in Opossum Bay, 50 kilometres for staying in a capital city. away, in a sleepy rural hollow up a dusty track, you would say: ‘I stayed at Opossum If Senator Sherry is staying with his mother Bay but I argue that somehow I am entitled and incurring no expenses at all, what he is to a capital city claim.’ It undermines the doing, colloquially speaking, is working the whole principle of the travel allowance system. He is basically arranging to be in arrangements if you are entitled on a very Hobart whenever he can, saying that he is regular basis to not pay any money out of there for business—not hard to manufacture your own pocket but pick up $300 a night. one or two points— Senator McKiernan—I raise a point of I invite Senator Sherry to indicate on how order. It concerns the words that Senator many occasions he actually did stay with his Alston has just used—the accusation that mother or at his mother’s place in that 143 Senator Sherry is working the system. The nights and whether he paid out any money on challenge was made yesterday in a question those occasions. I ask him to justify why he to the Assistant Treasurer, I think—I cannot happened to be in Hobart on so many occa- remember the precise words—as to whether sions. We know that he is right at the top of Senator Sherry had done anything unlawful. the tree. We know that as shadow minister for The question was directly asked of the finance there are not too many interest groups government yesterday as to the lawfulness— that he needs to be seeing on a regular basis. Senator ALSTON—What is the point of But if he managed to find enough in Hobart order? on 37 occasions, let us hear about it. Let us not simply say that DAS guidelines have a Senator McKiernan—of Senator Sherry’s broad definition. That is not what Senator claims, and it was not replied to. The point of Kemp said. order is that a senator, even if that senator is a minister in the government, is not allowed More importantly, the proper course of to malign another senator in this place. action to take if you want to act openly is to The PRESIDENT—I do not interpret the specify Opossum Bay and then argue your words as having maligned somebody, Senator, case. Say that it comes within a broad defini- but I will certainly be listening to make sure tion, point to a guideline if you can and then that does not occur. justify your claim. To simply put down Hobart when you stayed 50 kilometres away, Senator ALSTON—I am endeavouring to I submit, is very misleading indeed. The make it crystal clear that this is working the taxpayers will be the judge of this. All I can system. This is a sharp practice. It is possible do is invite Senator Sherry to come up with to bring yourself within the guidelines by a lot more information than he has provided finding an excuse to be in Hobart on every to date. It is clear that Senator Sherry has conceivable occasion, making every effort to managed to find excuses to be in Hobart on be there. as many occasions as possible and at the same I say to you that the principle that Senator time has managed to find opportunities to Ray espoused the other day was in fact to earn $300 a night. We have no idea on how Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7343 many occasions he actually had to expend any Representatives, is based on a lack of substan- money out of his own pocket. (Time expired) tial work, bordering on the misleading of both Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (3.17 chambers today. I do not believe they deliber- p.m.)—For the first time ever a minister has ately misled. I just think it was out of total moved to take note of an answer in a pre- ignorance. Senator Alston comes in and says, determined attack. We have set a precedent in ‘I think Senator Sherry’s travel allowance is that regard. But the Minister for Communica- a bit high.’ What does Senator Alston say tions, the Information Economy and the Arts when the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs (Mr (Senator Alston), if he wants to answer some Bruce Scott) in the first nine months of questions, can answer these questions, which government claims 80 per cent of the avail- still remain. Does Senator Newman, sitting able days in travel allowance? What does he over there, stay basically in Canberra? Does say to Mr Peter McGauran, claiming 108 days Mr Anderson basically stay in Canberra? The in Melbourne, including Boxing Day when he amazing thing was that, even though he was was at the test cricket the next day? What briefed, the Acting Minister for Administra- does he say about the claims of a variety of tive Services went into the other place today ministers? Look at the charter allowance of and said: ‘There is no definition of "capital Mr Anderson. He doesn’t live in Canberra, city".’ How could he be advised of that? I but 75 per cent of his 55 charters either start know Administrative Services currently is in in Canberra or finish in Canberra. Who is a total shambles, but how could he have said fooling who in this debate? that when, firstly, 3½ years ago Senator We put this challenge to the government, to Sherry’s office checked with Administrative Senator Kemp and the bully boys over here: Services for guidance and was given it on this you come up with a substantial allegation. very subject? Secondly, the DAS guidelines You have today, and you are absolutely say the following: wrong, wrong because you did not do your Capital city is as defined (in relation to its boundar- research and because DAS is in a shambles ies) by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. and cannot feed you the information you There is a guideline. It does apply. It is there need. That is the situation. in the DAS guidelines. How could Mr Senator Abetz—What is the information Ruddock and, presumably, Senator Kemp be we need? ignorant of that fact? The ABS definition of Hobart is that it: Senator ROBERT RAY—Senator Abetz . . . comprises the local government areas of interjects. He is on the Hansard record at 10 Hobart, Glenorchy, Clarence and Brighton and the minutes to one today acknowledging that each predominantly urban parts of Kingsborough, New one of Senator Sherry’s travel allowance Norfolk and Sorrell. claims in Hobart is legal. That is what you It defines it. So we have a definition in the said. That is in the Hansard. I thought you DAS guidelines of a capital city and the ABS had done your research. I thought you were definition of the capital city includes Opos- smarter than the rest of the Bozos down here. sum Bay and many other areas. So, in effect, I thought you had gone away and researched are we to go back through the records and it. But you have not. Senator Sherry’s Hobart find that certain members have stayed in claims meet the DAS definition as defined. It Dandenong in Melbourne and therefore have exists. If you are so stupid you only go to the misclaimed because it is not regarded as part Remuneration Tribunal, you should know that of a capital city? Ask anyone in Dandenong, the Remuneration Tribunal’s various determi- anyone in Parramatta, anyone in Port Mel- nations are interpreted by DAS on a whole bourne, ‘What capital city do you live in?’ range of things. Here is one example where and they will say, ‘Melbourne’, ‘Sydney’, it is. You are absolutely wrong. ‘Hobart’. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant So this pre-prepared attack, which has been Treasurer) (3.22 p.m.)—Madam President, launched both here and in the House of you know that the Labor Party is in trouble 7344 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 when Robert Ray, who was not in this cham- whether that is an appropriate standard of ber during all of question time, Robert Ray, behaviour for the Labor Party. the hammer of people who he alleges are Opossum Bay, I understand, is some 40 to rorting the travel allowance system—and we 50 kilometres out of Hobart. Senator Sherry remember that Robert Ray in relation to hops off the plane; he then takes the Comcar Senator Colston and his hammering of that— out to Opossum Bay for $50, $70 extra. He suddenly is rolled in to defend Senator takes it back into Hobart for another $50, Sherry. You suddenly are rolled in to defend $70, or maybe even more. So Senator Sherry, Senator Sherry. meant to be staying in Hobart, has already Senator Cook—Madam President, I raise cost the taxpayer substantial amounts of a point of order. The motion was that we take additional money. But we assume—and note of Senator Kemp’s answer. Surely it is Senator Sherry can enlighten us on this—that, inappropriate for Senator Kemp to take note presumably, he stays at Opossum Bay free of of his own answer. charge. The PRESIDENT—There is no difficulty Senator Ray and others have raised the with a minister who has spoken and given an issue of travel allowances in this parliament. answer taking part in the debate on that They have pursued many people in this answer. Parliament in relation to this issue. They Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam should not be remotely surprised that it is President. In relation to the debate, Senator coming back to bite them, firstly with Senator Ray missed the central question that Senator Sherry. Sherry and the Labor Party now have to This is an issue of standards, and Senator answer—and this is the question: do Senator Sherry is in the chamber. Senator Sherry, you Sherry and, of course, Mr Beazley think it is can stand up and tell us on how many nights appropriate for Senator Sherry to stay over 40 of the 143 nights costing $40,000 you stayed kilometres out of Hobart at Opossum Bay at Opossum Bay. You can tell us that, Senator with his mother while claiming up to $300 a Sherry—and remember that there are Comcar night? That is the issue which Senator Sherry records that presumably can be checked. Then might like to tell us about. Senator Sherry has this debate, Senator Sherry, will be one of: stayed, we know, some 143 nights in ‘Hobart’ what are the standards of the Australian Labor at a cost to the taxpayer of over $40,000. Party and, in particular, the Leader of the That is what we know. Opposition, Mr Kim Beazley? Senator Robert Ray—Peter McGauran did Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— that for 11 months. Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.28 Senator KEMP—Yes, a very good inter- p.m.)—I would like to join this debate—an jection, Robert Ray. extraordinary one, the first time ever we have had a government minister move that the The PRESIDENT—Order! There are far Senate take note of another government too many interjections. It is almost impossible minister’s answer. We must admit that the to hear. Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp, made an Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam absolute fool of himself in question time. This President. We know that in that 143 days, is an orchestrated attack from the Liberal there were 29 Fridays, 28 Saturdays and 15 Party, and Senator Kemp could not even Sundays. The question that Senator Sherry organise a supplementary question. Senator can now turn his mind to answering for us is: Kemp, really, it is not surprising that your on how many of those 143 nights did he stay deputy leader, the Minister for Communica- at Opossum Bay? That would be of consider- tions, the Information Economy and the Arts able interest. Then it is a matter of whether, (Senator Alston), trying to get a little bit of a according to the standards of the Labor Party confidence builder after his bad day on and those of Senator Sherry, they feel this is Tuesday of last week, was trying to show you appropriate behaviour. That is the issue: how it is done. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7345

The motivation for this incredibly weak own goal that is from you, because we all parliamentary performance from Senator know senators and members on both sides Alston and Senator Kemp is this: Mr Sharp who stay in capital cities and—properly—put and Mr McGauran have resigned as ministers in claims even though they happen to stay of the Howard government—for rorting. They overnight in areas outside the CBD. resigned because they put in false travel Senator Alston—Not driving for half an claims. Their travel allowance claims were hour down a bush track 50 kilometres from false, and they were found out. They were the suburbs of Hobart. found out, even though the former Minister for Administrative Services, Mr Jull, who also Senator FAULKNER—The point is, in has had to resign—that is three ministers last relation to Hobart, as defined by the Austral- week—tried to cover it up. That is the truth ian Bureau of Statistics— of the matter. They were found out. They Senator Alston—Not when you are in the were found out rorting, and the responsible bush. minister for administration of parliamentary Senator FAULKNER—Wouldn’t you have entitlements was found out covering it up. had a winner? Had you had a real winner, What does that say about the Howard govern- you would not have had Senator Abetz and ment? Mr Miles trying to tip the bucket. You would Since that time, of course, we have had the not have had amateurs like Senator Kemp and grand strategy hatched by the Treasurer, Mr Senator Alston. You would have got a real Costello, in the House of Representatives, and professional to come in and try to tip the these pathetic underlings over here, Senators bucket, had you had a real story. But you Kemp and Alston, to try to square it up. So know the definition shows that Senator what have we had? We have had a member Sherry’s claims were legal. He was within of staff of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr greater Hobart, so it was a capital city claim Beazley) attacked, and now we have had and he has done nothing wrong. Senator Sherry attacked. That stands in absolutely stark contrast to Senator Kemp—What about your attacks? the rorters on the government side. That is the Senator FAULKNER—There is a substan- difference between McGauran, Sharp and any tial difference, because Senator Sherry’s other claim you care to mention. They rorted claims, as Senator Abetz at least had the and tried to cover up, with the connivance of decency to admit in his contribution earlier Mr Jull. You know this is different. You have on, were legal. That is the difference between not proved one claim of wrongdoing against the claims of Mr Sharp and Mr McGauran Senator Sherry, and he is absolutely right to and those of Senator Sherry—and, no doubt, call you sanctimonious, lying hypocrites. a lot of others. Mr Sharp and Mr McGauran The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, two are rorters, and no-one on that side has matters: I wish you to withdraw the word suggested—not even these weak, lily-livered, ‘lying’— wimpy Howard government ministers in the Senator FAULKNER—I withdraw it. Senate—that there is anything wrong with Senator Sherry’s claims. The PRESIDENT—I would draw to your attention that, referring to members of the They are legal, and they know they are other place, you should refer to them as Mr legal. They know they are in accordance with Sharp or Mr McGauran. entitlements. Frankly, I am amazed that this mob want to open up the business of actually Senator FAULKNER—Oh yes. saying, ‘If you put in a capital city claim, you The PRESIDENT—I do not regard that as have to stay in the central business district.’ an adequate response to my comment, Sena- Really? tor. That is what they are saying: that you can Senator ABETZ (Tasmania) (3.33 p.m.)— only have a valid capital city claim if you You know when the Labor Party is going stay in the central business district. What an badly: they call in Senator Robert Ray. I have 7346 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 to say to you, Senator Robert Ray is usually up on your behalf, Senator Sherry, was that a polished performer. Today his performance you do not own a home. Wrong on two has been abysmal. One of his thrusts today counts. You own two. You have admitted to was—disorderly conduct though it was—to as much. say that I had somehow dealt Senator Sherry So what is your excuse? What is the Labor a terrible blow by announcing publicly what Party’s excuse for your high travelling allow- Senator Sherry’s home address was during the ance costs, Senator Sherry? That is the matter public debate today. that the people of Australia want to have Do you know what? On 29 September— answered. two days ago—Senator Sherry, your deputy leader in this place, issued a public media Yesterday, when Senator Sherry was in this release saying, in part: chamber, he said that he spent a majority of his time in Burnie. Allow me to quote exact- The fact is that I have a home in Burnie. I live at 3 Hale Street, Burnie. ly: That is what Senator Sherry did, and you I spend the majority of my time in Burnie and I accuse me of committing a heinous crime by travel as required. repeating Senator Sherry’s press release. The Coming from the shadow minister for finance, trouble is, the Labor Party do not believe each the shadow spokesman on superannuation, other any more. when we go through the figures, what do we Do you know what brought all this up? Mr find? We find that for 60 per cent of his time Simon Crean, the member for Hotham, when he is claiming travelling allowance. So, at the he was challenged about why Senator best possible analysis, he spends only 40 per Sherry’s travel allowance was so high, said, cent of his time in Burnie. A minority of the ‘Senator Sherry does not have a home.’ That time. was the only defence proffered on behalf of No wonder the Labor Party left this country Senator Sherry: ‘He doesn’t have a home.’ with a $10.3 billion deficit. You think that 40 That sole defence was destroyed by Senator per cent of the time is somehow a majority. Sherry himself, when he acknowledged that It clearly is not. You ought to apologise to the it was wrong. Senate and acknowledge that you misled the But why didn’t Senator Sherry seek to Senate. correct the record as soon as Mr Crean stated Time is short, but Simon Crean ought to that mistruth? Because he thought it would go come clean. Why was he under the misappre- to the keeper and nobody would realise. But hension that Senator Sherry did not have a Mr Costello picked up the line and absolutely house? Because Senator Sherry never goes to pilloried Senator Sherry. As a result Senator live in the house; he is busily claiming his Sherry puts out a media release not condemn- travel allowance, going around the country or ing Mr Crean—his friend and colleague—but staying at mum’s at Opossum Bay, which is condemning Mr Costello. 50 kilometres, in rough terms, away from The public of Australia have the right to Hobart—a quarter of the way to Launceston. ask this simple question: why is it that Simon Are you going to tell people a quarter of the Crean, a senior man in the Australian Labor way to Launceston that they are really in Party, was under the impression that Senator Hobart? Senator Sherry, you have a lot of Sherry did not have a home when in fact he explaining to do. Senator Ray said that Mr owns two homes? Why did Mr Crean labour McGauran resigned; so should you. under that misapprehension? I will give you a bit of a guess why: because Senator Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy Sherry’s travel allowance was well-known Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.38 around this place. It was a matter of constant p.m.)—It is unfortunate that the senators who debate, constant discussion and some awe- are sitting opposite were not in the chamber inspiring concern at the magnitude of it. And at lunchtime. the only defence that Simon Crean could put Senator Alston—We watched it. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7347

Senator SHERRY—I am glad you did. I knocked off a senator on the north-west coast. did provide an explanation of this matter. The He cleaned out the Liberal Party’s north-west central issue related to Mr Miles, who put out senators. Mr Miles knows full well the con- a press release yesterday in respect to a siderable amount of work I do, the consider- capital city claim vis-a-vis a country claim. able amount of time I spend there and the fact As I made very clear at lunchtime, when I that I am living on the north-west coast. became a parliamentary secretary I did ask my staff to check the DAS guideline in Senator Alston—You’re not going to respect to Opossum Bay. I asked them to answer these questions, are you? You’ve got collect that and I asked them to check it two minutes left to answer the questions. thoroughly. We checked the DAS guidelines and the guidelines state that ‘capital city’ is Opposition senators interjecting— as defined in relation to its boundaries by the The PRESIDENT—Order! There are far Australian Bureau of Statistics. too many interjections in the chamber. It is Senator Alston—Why didn’t you declare almost impossible to hear and I would ask Opossum Bay? senators to desist from being so disorderly. Senator SHERRY—Because it is part of Senator SHERRY—I raised the issue of the Hobart division for TA claims. Senator Senator Brownhill and I did draw attention to Alston, when you go to Sydney or Melbourne Senator Brownhill’s travel allowance claims. do you put down Parramatta or Carlton on I did make the point that Senator Brownhill your claim? You put down the name of the is in a very similar position to me. It is principal city and that is what I did. We interesting that Senator Brownhill is not here checked with the Australian Bureau of Statist- at all this week. I did raise the issue of ics definition, which states that the greater Senator Brownhill, although I have not made Hobart division comprises the local govern- any remarks about Senator Brownhill. I have ment area of Hobart, Glenorchy, Clarence— highlighted the effective work that he has and Opossum Bay is in Clarence—and Brigh- carried out in respect of primary industries ton, and the predominantly urban parts of and resources—similar duties to me. Senator Kingborough, New Norfolk and Sorell. If the Brownhill, in the first year, was in Sydney for Department of Administrative Services had 48 nights. said to me, ‘Senator Sherry, Opossum Bay is not classified as part of Hobart,’ then I would Could all of the members and senators in have claimed what was the correct country this parliament put up their hands if they have particular allowance. That is what I would not stayed privately? How many of you can have done. As I said, we queried this with the say you have not stayed privately? Put up Department of Administrative Services. your hands, come on. How many of you have not stayed privately? I would be very interest- Senator Abetz has made some references to ed to know. Do you want to open up that my home in Burnie. I issued the challenge issue? Do you want to open up the issue of earlier; I am very happy for those in the where everyone stays and have all of the government, and for Mr Costello, to fly down Comcar records checked? You can check my to Burnie on Friday with me. Come down to Comcar records. If you want to open up that the Burnie show; come and stay at my house. issue for everyone’s scrutiny, go ahead. You What is the definition of a house? I own it, I have opened up my affairs. Fine. Go ahead. pay rates and all of my personal worldly (Time expired) goods are in Burnie in my house. I spent a month decorating the place. All of my books Question resolved in the affirmative. and my clothes are there. The first thing I do when I walk in the door of my house in PETITIONS Burnie is to throw the washing in the washing machine. Burnie is my residence. Senator The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for Abetz should know all about this because he presentation as follows: 7348 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Repatriation Benefits (e) They were not bound by the ‘Special Over- seas Service’ requirements which were introduced To the Honourable the President and Members of in the Repatriation (Special Overseas Service) Act the House of Representatives in Parliament assem- 1962, which act became law some two years after bled: the war in Malaya ended. The humble petition of the undersigned Citizens (f) the Australian citizens serving in the Royal of Australia respectfully sheweth: Australian Navy complied with all the requirements (1) That members of the Royal Australian Navy for ‘active service’. The fourth, for ‘military who served in Malaya between 1955 and 1960 have occupation of a foreign country’ did not apply; been deliberately and wrongly excluded from (g) The Department of Veterans’ Affairs has eligibility for repatriation benefits under the indicated it can find no written reason(s) for the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986 (the Act) for RAN exclusion in the Act. In two independent honourable overseas ‘active service’ under ‘Oper- Federal Court cases (Davis WA G130 of 1989 and ational Service’ at Section 6.(1)(c)(ii) of the Act. Doessel Qld G62 of 1990) the courts found the two They are the only Australian Citizens to be treated ex-members of the RAN had been ‘allotted’. Davis in that way. had served in Malaya in 1956 and 57. As a result (2) A defined group of citizens, who served in of these cases ex-members of the RAN who served the Malaya area, being members of the Royal in Malaya and who had, at that time, claims before Australian Navy Defence Forces so affected, have the Department of Veterans’ Affairs for benefits, been wrongly excluded, whereas members of the had their claims accepted. Eight weeks after the Army and Air Force were not so excluded, and this Doessel decision the Act was amended to require is supported by documents in the Australian allotment to have been by written instrument. In Archives and elsewhere on public record. Parliament, it was claimed the amendment was (3) Allied veterans of 50 nations involved in necessary to restore the intended purpose of the conflicts with Australian forces until the end of the exclusion, reasons for which can not be found. This Korean War can have had qualifying eligibility for action would not have been taken had the Parlia- benefits under the Act. Veterans of South Vietnam, ment been properly informed. Parliament has the Philippines, South Korea, Thailand and the unfortunately approved the introduction of qualified United States can have eligibility resulting from the retrospectivity through accepting these amendments Vietnam War. Their service was recognised after to the Act resulting in an injustice being perpetrat- RAN service in Malaya was excluded. ed against ex-service personnel. (4) It is claimed that: Your petitioners therefore humbly pray (a) Members of the RAN were designated as ‘on Your Honourable House take appropriate action active service’ when they served in a designated to remove the previous Government’s discrimina- zone that is within a 12 NM limit offshore from the tory exclusion of Naval personnel in the Act coastline of Malaya from 9th May 1952 to 1st thereby restoring justice and recognition of Austral- December 1960. These dates are verified in Decla- ian citizens’ honourable service with the Royal rations by the Governor-General, Commander-in- Australian Navy for their country, whilst on ‘active Chief of the Naval and Military Forces of the service’ in the Malaya campaign. Commonwealth, contained in Commonwealth by Senator Robert Ray (from 20 citizens). Government Gazettes No. 40, 5th June, 1952 and No. 82, 8th December, 1960. Logging and Woodchipping (b) Members of the RAN were engaged on To the Honourable the President and Members of operational duties that applied to all service person- the Senate in Parliament assembled. nel everywhere. For permanent protection of old-growth forests (c) Naval personnel were subject to similar and all other areas of high conservation value, and dangers as all other Australian service personnel for the implementation of tree plantation strategies. serving in Malaya and there were RAN casualties, This petition from the undersigned respectfully including the death by ‘friendly fire’ of a sailor points out that: there is an increasing and urgent during support operations. This can be attested to demand from the people, to protect all remaining be a Naval Flag Officer who witnessed the death high conservation value forests which support flora on board his ship. and fauna unique to Australia, thus complying with (d) The Royal Australian Navy was ‘allotted’ for the United Nations Biodiversity Convention to operational service from 1st July 1955 and this which Australia is a signatory. We have a responsi- authorisation was contained in Minute No. 011448 bility to future and present generations, and the of 11 November 1955, signed by the Secretary to necessary reasons, knowledge and technology to act the Department of the Navy. now on the following achievable solutions. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7349

Your petitioners therefore request that the Senate (c) notes: legislate to: (i) the persistence of negative and damaging immediately stop all logging and woodchipp- stereotypes surrounding ageing which are ing activities in high conservation value native promulgated by the media, and calls on forests; all sectors of the community to challenge ensure intergenerational equity by planning for these negative stereotypes and promote a the rights of future generations, and protecting in positive image of older people, perpetuity all biologically diverse old-growth (ii) that the International Day of Older Per- forests, wilderness, rainforests and critical sons in 1998 will mark the commence- habitats of endangered species; ment of the International Year of Older facilitate rapid transition of the timber industry Persons in 1999, and from harvesting high conservation value native (iii) the work of the Conference for Older forests, to establishing mixed-species farm Australians in supporting the Common- forestry on existing cleared and degraded lands, wealth’s involvement in the International using non-toxic methods to protect ecological Year of Older Persons in 1999; and sustainability; (d) commends the collaborative approach of maximise use of readily-available plantation Coalition ‘99 in working toward coordinat- timber for industry needs, using appropriate ing the response of the non-government forestry techniques and progressive minimal- sector in planning for the International Year waste processing methods, such as radial sawing, of Older Persons. and wherever possible, reuse and recycle wood and paper products; Legal and Constitutional References support incentives for nationwide employment Committee in composting, soil remineralisation programs, Senator McKIERNAN (Western Austral- and the planting programs of trees and annual ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of fibre crops, inter-grown with appropriate fruit sitting, I shall move: and nut trees and medicinal plants; That the time for the presentation of the report encourage sensitively-managed, environmental of the Legal and Constitutional References Com- education tourism in appropriate forest areas, mittee on the need to protect Australian citizens with full respect for natural ecosystems, Aborigi- against discrimination and vilification on the nal cultural heritage, sacred sites and other sites grounds of their sexuality or transgender identity, of significance; as dealt with by the Sexuality Discrimination Bill progressively utilise technological expertise 1995 [1996], be extended to the last day of sitting and resources transferred from the military in 1997. sector, to help implement these tree planting solutions; and to motivate the international Legal and Constitutional Legislation community to follow this example. Committee And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever Senator ABETZ (Tasmania)—I give notice pray. that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: by Senator Bourne (from 200 citizens) and That the time for the presentation of the report Senator Brown (from 216 citizens). of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Com- mittee on the provisions of the Copyright Amend- Petitions received. ment Bill 1997 be extended to 27 October 1997. NOTICES OF MOTION Ministers and Ministerial Staff Older Persons Senator CONROY (Victoria)—On behalf Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia)— of Senator Faulkner, I give notice that, on the On behalf of Senator Patterson I give notice next day of sitting, he will move: that, on the next day of sitting, she will move: That there be laid on the table, by the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Hill), That the Senate— immediately after question time on Monday, 20 (a) notes that 1 October 1997 is the Internation- October 1997, the following: al Day of Older Persons; All documents in the possession of the Office of (b) recognises the valuable contribution of older the Prime Minister (Mr Howard), the Department Australians to Australia’s social and eco- of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and the nomic fabric; Department of Administrative Services which 7350 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

relate to the matters which led to the resignations (c) the effect on the child care sector of the of former Ministers for Transport and Regional implementation of the Child Care Pay- Development (Mr Sharp), Administrative Ser- ments Bill 1997 on 1 January 1998; vices (Mr Jull) and Science and Technology (Mr (d) the impact of the new planning system on McGauran); and former Prime Ministerial the child care industry; staffers, Mr Morris and Ms McKenna. (e) the criteria the Government will use to Child Care regionally allocate child care hours and the impact it will have on the child care Senator NEAL (New South Wales)—I give industry; notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: (f) the effect of placing a limit on emergency child care assistance; (1) That the Senate notes the Federal Govern- ment’s $820 million cuts to child care over (g) the extent of oversupply of child care two budgets. places; (2) That the following matters be referred to the (h) the extent of unmet demand for child care Community Affairs References Committee places; for inquiry and report by 30 June 1998: (i) the effect on the whole child care (a) the impact on families and child care industry, its quality, affordability and service operators of: the availability of places, of any reduction in quality, significant re- (i) the abolition of capital grants, duction in or demise of the com- (ii) the abolition of operational subsidies munity care sector in the child care for community-based long day and out industry; of school hours care, (j) the extent and impact on children of any (iii) cuts to Commonwealth Block Grants reduction in the quality of child care for Vacation Care, services provided and the availability of early childhood education, and the in- (iv) limiting work-related care to 50 hours creased use of unlicensed or unregulated and non-work-related care to 20 hours care; per week, (k) the effect of fee increases, changes to the (v) the changes to rebateable fees for child care payments system and a reduc- school-age children using family day tion in the availability or quality of care care from $3.05 to $1.95, on women and their ability and choice to (vi) limiting child care places to 7 000 in participate in the work force; 1998 and 1999, (l) the impact on the quality of child care (vii) freezing the child care assistance and and on children and families of any the child care rebate ceilings for 2 reduction of the current accreditation years; system; (viii) the reduction in the income limit for (m) the advantages to be gained from extend- families with two or more children ing the National Child Care Accreditation in care, and Council and its Quality Improvement and (ix) the abolition of deductions from tax- Accreditation System to family day care, able income of $30 for each dependent outside school hours care, and to pre- child; school services; (b) the extent and impact in the past 2 years (n) the effect on work-based child care and and into the future of: on workers of: (i) fee increases related to budget cuts, (i) not having fringe benefits tax exemp- tion for employer sponsored care, and (ii) child care service closures, (ii) any restriction on child care places (iii) reductions in child care places, contained in the Child Care Payments (iv) the use of unregulated backyard care, Bill; (v) reductions in hours and services provid- (o) the impact on child care services of direct ed to children, payments to parents; (vi) redundancies and reductions in staff (p) whether current changes and a move to places and hours within the industry; direct payments of child care assistance Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7351

will result in increased choice and flexi- (b) calls on Senator Sherry to explain this bility for parents; further misleading of the Senate. (q) the impact of the proposed smart card Family Law Regulations voucher system on the child care sector, on the viability of child care services and Senator CONROY (Victoria)—On behalf on families using the new technology; of Senator Bolkus, I give notice that, on the (r) the impact on family day care services of next day of sitting, he will move: any decision to abolish operation subsi- That the Family Law Regulations (Amendment), dies for these services; and as contained in Statutory Rules 1997 No. 157 and (s) the impact of the Government’s changes made under the Family Law Act 1975, be disal- on workers in the child care industry. lowed. Electricity Regulations and Ordinances Committee Senator HEFFERNAN (New South Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On Wales)—I give notice that, on the next day of behalf of the Standing Committee on Regula- sitting, I shall move: tions and Ordinances, I give notice that, at the That the Senate— giving of notices on the next day of sitting, Senator O’Chee will withdraw four disallow- (a) notes that: ance motions, the full terms of which have (i) the implementation of the national electri- been circulated in the chamber and which I city market has resulted in a 35 per cent now hand to the Clerk. I seek leave to in- reduction in the spot wholesale price of electricity, corporate in Hansard the committee’s corres- pondence concerning these instruments. (ii) the Australia-wide benefits of electricity reform have been estimated at $5 billion Leave granted. per year, and The correspondence read as follows— (iii) the privatisation of the New South Wales electricity industry would reduce costs to Airports Regulations (Amendment) Statutory Rules consumers, consolidate the national elec- 1997 No 104 tricity reforms and greatly benefit New 27 August 1997 South Wales; and The Hon John Sharp MP Minister for Transport and Regional Development (b) strongly supports the proposal of the New Parliament House South Wales Government to privatise that CANBERRA ACT 2600 State’s electricity industry. Dear Minister Community Affairs References I refer to the Airports Regulations (Amendment), Committee Statutory Rules 1997 No 104, which provide a formula for the Minister to give an airport operator Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)— notice to adjust its foreign ownership to comply On behalf of Senator Lees, I withdraw busi- with the 49% maximum foreign ownership require- ness of the Senate, notice of motion No. 1. ments. Travel Allowances The Committee notes that r.3.01 provides that, where the Minister is of the opinion that an unac- Senator ABETZ (Tasmania)—I give notice ceptable foreign-ownership situation may exist, the that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: Minister must give a company notice before That the Senate— applying to the Court. In effect such notice gives the Company an opportunity to answer the (a) notes: Minister’s concerns. Regulation 3.02 sets out the (i) Senator Sherry’s claim, made during matters to be included in the notice. However, debate on taking note of answers to r.3.02 provides only that the Minister may include questions on 1 October 1997, that he certain specified matters. The Committee would spent a whole month redecorating his appreciate your advice on why it is not a manda- place at 3 Hale Street, Burnie, and tory requirement to include these matters. (ii) that for each month since Senator Paragraph 3.01(2)(b) requires the company to Sherry’s purchase of the 3 Hale Street, provide evidence to the Minister’s reasonable Burnie property he made multiple claims satisfaction that an unacceptable foreign-ownership for travelling allowance; and situation does not exist. As this discretion may 7352 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 have significant commercial implications, the In recognition of the difficulties faced by listed Committee would appreciate your advice on companies in complying with strict limits the whether merits review of the exercise of this discre- Regulations sought to provide a mechanism under tion is available. which the Minister may give an airport-operator Subregulation 3.02(1) provides, quite reasonably, company a period of grace of up to 180 days to that nothing in r.3.01 affects an airport-operator adjust its foreign ownership level where necessary company’s obligation under s.42(1) of the Act to ensure compliance with the 49% limit. While which requires an operator to take all reasonable there is nothing in the Act that would prevent the steps to ensure that an unacceptable foreign-owner- Minister from staying his or her hand for any ship situation does not exist. The Committee notes, period administratively, potential bidders asked, and however, that r.3.02(2) provides for prosecution of Cabinet agreed, for this to be reflected explicitly in an operator company whether or not the Minister Regulations. has given notice under r.3.01 and even if the time The Regulations were drafted in a form which was allowed in the notice has not expired. The Explana- consistent with the scheme of the Act. A regulation tory Statement advises that the reason for the which would have required (rather than merely introduction of the giving of notice provision empowered) the Minister to delay taking any recognises the difficulties faced by listed companies enforcement action (either by way of prosecution in complying with strict limits. However, having or remedial order) for 180 days would fetter the provided for safeguards under r.3.01, it appears that discretion conferred on the Minister by the Act and r.3.02(2) takes away much of the protection of thus be invalid. On the other hand, there is no legal those safeguards. The Committee would appreciate objection to requiring the Minister to give notice of your advice on why r.3.02(2) was considered his or her intention to apply for a remedial order necessary. provided that he or she is not then required to wait Yours sincerely 180 days to do so. Bill O’Chee While regulation 3.01(1) is intended to require the Chairman Minister to give the notice, regulation 3.01(2) makes it clear that the notice may (but need not) include a statement that the Minister Will allow 180 days for the airport operator company to Senator W O’Chee provide evidence that an unacceptable foreign Chairman Senate Standing Committee on Regula- ownership situation does not exist before making tions and Ordinances the application. Similarly, regulation 3.02(2) is Parliament House intended to make it clear that the regulation does CANBERRA ACT 2600 not fetter the Minister’s discretion to bring prosecu- Dear Senator O’Chee tions in appropriate cases. I refer to your letter of 27 August 1997 in which The Committee also expressed concern that the you sought my advice in relation to a number of Regulations do not provide a right of review on the concerns the Committee had with the Airports merits of a decision of the Minister as to whether Regulations (Amendment), Statutory Rules 1997 he or she is satisfied as to the evidence provided by No.104 (the Regulations). an airport operator company as to compliance with Before addressing the Committee’s specific con- the foreign ownership limits. I assume that the cerns I thought it might be useful to set out briefly Committee’s concern is that the Minister may then the context of the Regulations and what they are proceed to seek remedial orders without the oppor- intended to achieve. tunity for the company to apply for a review on the The Airports Act 1996 (the Act) imposes limita- merits of the evidence which was the basis for the tions on, amongst other things, the ownership of decision to apply to the Court. leased airports by foreign persons. The ownership Subsection 242 provides that a decision of the provisions of the Act are set out in Part 3 of the Minister to apply, or to refuse to apply, to the Act and the Schedule to the Act. Part 3 limits Federal Court for an order or injunction is not foreign ownership of an airport-operator company reviewable by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. to 49%. There are two offences associated with this Provision for merits review of the Minister’s rule. Firstly, section 41 prohibits the acquisition of decision under the regulations would be inconsis- shares which would result in a breach of the 49% tent with the unavailability of merits review of a rule. Secondly, section 42 obliges an airport- decision to apply for Federal Court orders under the operator company to take all reasonable steps to Act. Ultimately, the Act establishes the Federal ensure that the 49% limit is not exceeded. Any Court as the authority on whether there has been a breach of these rules can be enforced by a prosecu- breach of the foreign ownership limit. In this tion and/or an application to the Federal Court for context, a right of review of the Minister’s decision remedial orders. under the Regulations would have no practical Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7353 effect and would create the possibility of conflict opment concerning the amendments of the Civil with the Act. Aviation Regulations (Regulations) made by In summary, the regulations merely provide a Statutory Rules 1997 No 111. formal basis for the Minister to provide reassurance The first matter of concern to the Committee to companies which may exceed the foreign relates to the fact that the new regulation 42ZZ of ownership limit despite having made all reasonable the Regulations allows the Civil Aviation Safety efforts to comply. This is in recognition of the Authority (CASA) to give a direction in relation to practical difficulties for listed companies of ensur- maintenance control manuals but does not specify ing compliance at all times. They do not, indeed that the direction must be in writing. The require- cannot, purport to limit the discretion of the ment for a direction to be in writing is dealt with Minister to either bring a prosecution or seek in subregulation 5(1 ) of the Regulations which remedial orders under the Act. provides, among other things, that where CASA I hope that the Committee finds this response to its can give direction under the Regulations, CASA concerns helpful. can give the direction in Civil Aviation Orders or Yours sincerely otherwise in writing. I have been advised that any John Sharp directions issued by CASA in relation to mainte- Minister for Transport and Regional Development nance control manuals would be in writing in 23 Sep 1997 accordance with subregulation 5(1). Any such directions would also need to be in writing for evidentiary purposes. To confirm these arrange- Civil Aviation Regulations (Amendment) ments I will arrange for an amendment to the Statutory Rules 1997 No 111 Regulation to require such directions to be in writing. 27 August 1997 The second matter relates to the inclusion in the The Hon John Sharp MP amendments of strict liability offences in relation Minister for Transport and Regional Development to the amendment of maintenance control manuals Parliament House and the inspection of those manuals. CANBERRA ACT 2600 The maintenance control manual is a fundamental Dear Minister link in the control of the maintenance of class A I refer to the Civil Aviation Regulations (Amend- aircraft (which, in the main, comprise the larger ment), Statutory Rules 1997 No 111, which provide aircraft used in regular public transport operations for the appointment of maintenance controllers and involving the carriage of fare paying passengers). for maintenance manuals. The need for CASA to exercise greater control, Subregulation 42ZZ(2) provides that CASA may both, over the appointment of maintenance control- direct an operator to amend the maintenance control lers, and over maintenance control manuals, has manual. As failure to comply with this provision been highlighted by the Bureau of Air Safety carries a penalty of $5,000, the Committee suggests Investigation on several occasions and was also that it may be appropriate that the direction must referred to in the report of the Coronial Inquiry into be in writing. the Monarch crash at Young. In these circum- stances, I believe that it is necessary and appropri- Also, rr. 42ZZ(3) and 42ZZA are strict liability ate that strict liability offences attached to these offences. Given that the penalty in both cases is provisions given the drastic consequences that can $5,000, the Committee asks whether strict liability result from inadequate or improper maintenance of is appropriate or necessary. such aircraft. The Committee would be grateful for your advice. If the Committee requires any further information, Yours sincerely please do not hesitate to contact me. Bill O’Chee Yours sincerely Chairman JOHN ANDERSON Minister for Transport and Regional Development 30 SEP 1997 Senator William O’Chee Chairman Senate Standing Committee on Regula- tions and Ordinances Parliament House Instrument of Approval No 1 of 1997 made CANBERRA ACT 2600 under ss.4A and 77H of the Customs Act Dear Senator O’Chee 1901. Thank you for your letter of 27 August 1997 to the 27 August 1997 former Minister for Transport and Regional Devel- Senator the Hon Christopher Ellison 7354 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Minister for Customs and Consumer Affairs New section 77G of the Act provides for the Parliament House granting of a Depot Licence, upon application in CANBERRA ACT 2600 accordance with section 77H, to use the place described in the licence for the following purposes: Dear Minister I refer to the Instrument of Approval No 1 of 1997 . the holding and unpacking of imported goods made under ss.4A and 77H of the Customs Act that are subject to Customs control; 1901, which approves the Application for a Cus- . the holding and packing of goods for export that toms Depot Licence form as an approved form. are subject to Customs control; and Clause 1.2 of the instrument requires the name, . the examination of goods that subject to the address (residential and business) and date of birth control of Customs by officers of Customs. of an applicant, all partners, all directors, officeholders and shareholders who will participate Section 77H of the Act requires an application for in management or control of the depot. The Expla- a depot licence to be in an approved form and to natory Statement does not explain why all these contain such information as the form requires. The personal details are necessary. The collection of questions on the form have been designed to enable unnecessary personal details by a government to Chief Executive Officer of Customs (the CEO) agency may be a breach of privacy and the Com- to have sufficient information available to deter- mittee would be grateful for your advice. mine whether the application meets the require- Yours sincerely ments for the grant of a depot licence under section 77K of the Act. In particular, paragraphs 77K(l)(a), Bill O’Chee (b), (c) and (d) require the CEO to be satisfied that Chairman all persons who would participate in the manage- ment or control of the depot (including the appli- cant, all partners (if the applicant is a partnership), Senator Bill O’Chee all directors, office holders and shareholders (if the Chairman applicant is a company), are fit and proper persons Senate Standing Committee on Regulations and to so participate. Ordinances In deciding whether a person is a fit and proper The Senate person for the purposes of paragraphs 77K(1)(a), Parliament House (b), (c) and (d), under subsection 77K(2) the CEO CANBERRA ACT 2600 must have regard to, amongst other things, any 29 SEP 1997 convictions of the person for offences committed against the Customs Act and any convictions for Dear Senator O’Chee offences against other Commonwealth, State or I refer to your letter of 27 August 1997 in relation Territory laws punishable by imprisonment for to Instrument of Approval No. 1 of 1997 made more than 1 year. To determine whether any such under sections 4A and 77H of the Customs Act convictions have occurred in the preceding 10 years 1901 (the Act), which approved the Application for in accordance with these provisions, Customs uses a Customs Depot Licence form as an approved the information provided in response to question form. You noted that question 1.2 of the form 1.2 on the application form for the purpose of requires the provision of the name, address and obtaining a police records check. The information date of birth of the applicant, all partners, all and the results of the check are used for the directors, office holders and shareholders who will purposes of determining whether the nominated participate in the management of the depot. You persons are fit and proper persons for the purposes sought my advice as to why the collection of these of section 77K of the Act, and does not amount to personal details is necessary as the collection of a breach of privacy. unnecessary personal information by a government agency may be a breach of privacy. In closing, I would note that before receiving your letter a review of the form by the Australian The Customs Depot Licensing scheme set out in Customs Service had already identified this ques- Part IVA of the Act was inserted on 1 April 1997 tion as one which, without further clarification, as part of the new cost recovery scheme for import might raise concerns as to the use of the informa- related services. The new licensing regime applies tion provided. Action is being taken to revoke the to premises previously appointed under paragraph approval of the current form and to replace it with 17(b) of the Act as places for the examination of a new approved form The new form will include goods on landing. Goods which were being allowed a note at the end of question 1.2 putting applicants onto these premises were subject to Customs on notice that nominated persons will be the subject control, however the appointment of these places of a police records check and that the information had no formal application or licensing process. will be used in part to satisfy the requirement that Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7355 the nominees are fit and proper persons for the Thank you for your letter dated 27 August 1997, purposes of section 77K of the Act. requesting advice as to whether regulation 58 and The Australian Customs Service has also put in subregulation 59.2 of the Migration Regulations place strict procedural guidelines to ensure that the (Amendment), Statutory Rules No. 109 involved privacy of partners, directors, employees etc. is not subdelegation of legislative power. breached should such a police records check result I have received advice from the Attorney-General’s in the CEO not being satisfied that the person is a Department ("the advice) to the effect that neither fit and proper person for the purposes of section regulation 58 nor subregulation 59.2 infringe the 77K of the Act, and that opinion results in a refusal rule against subdelegation of legislative power for to grant a licence. Information about an individual, two reasons, as follows. or identifying an individual, will not be made available to the applicant for the licence without Firstly, the regulation and subregulation at issue are the consent of the individual concerned. expressly authorised by subsection 504(2) of the Migration Act 1958 ("the Act"). Subsection 504(2) I trust this meets the concerns of the Committee. of the Act provides that: Yours sincerely "Section 49A of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 CHRIS ELLISON does not prevent, and has not prevented, regula- Minister for Customs and Consumer Affairs tions whose operation depends on a country or other matter being specified or certified by fee Minister in a notice published in the Gazette Migration Regulations (Amendment) Statutory after the taking effect of the regulations." Rules 1997 No 109 The explanatory memorandum to subsection 504(2) 27 August 1997 (originally inserted into the Act as subsection The Hon Philip Ruddock MP 181(1A) by Act No. 196 of 1991), explains that the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs provision was intended to permit "the Regulations Parliament House [to] prescribe matters to be specified by the CANBERRA ACT 2600 Minister by notice published in the Gazette". Dear Minister The advice provides that the overall structure of I refer to the Migration Regulations (Amendment), subsection 504(2) contemplates the inclusion of Statutory Rules 1997 No.109, which amend provi- provisions, such the ones at issue, in the Migration sions relating to evidence of ownership of assets, Regulations. That is, the structure of the subsection to the internal review of decisions, introduce or is consistent with the explanation provided in the increase certain fees and introduce a new form of explanatory memorandum. Similar provisions have visa. been repeatedly included in the Migration Regula- tions since 1991 on the basis of subsection 504(2). Regulation 58 inserts new Part 846. Subregulation 846.222(1) provides for a Gazette notice to specify Secondly, as mentioned in the advice, the making points for the business skills points test. Similarly, of a Gazette notice under the new provisions should r.59.2 provides that an applicant is affected by a properly be viewed as an exercise of administrative risk factor if the applicant has all of the character- power, rather than an exercise of legislative power. istics of a class of persons specified by the Minister This is because there is an established distinction, by Gazette notice. Both these provisions appear to enunciated by the Courts, between a legislative be subdelegations of legislative power and therefore instrument and an administrative instrument. invalid unless expressly authorised by the enabling Legislation determines the substantive content of Act. The Committee would appreciate your advice. the law, such as defining general rules of conduct or entitlements, while administrative action applies Yours sincerely the law, whether in a particular case or more Bill O’Chee generally. Chairman Thus, instruments that take the form of notices prescribing categories of persons (regulation 59.2) or a qualifying points score (regulation 58) in a Senator Bill O’Chee way contemplated by the law itself are examples of Chairman administrative action. Standing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances Parliament House Thank you for drawing this matter to my attention. CANBERRA ACT 2600 Yours sincerely 30 SEP 1997 Philip Ruddock Dear Senator O’Chee Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs 7356 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

National Refugee Week (b) calls on the Government to expand the scope of its discussions to include organisa- Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—I tions more representative of exclusively give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I small businesses, such as the Council of shall move: Small Business Organisations, other national That the Senate— small business organisations and the State- based organisations representing small retail (a) notes that National Refugee Week: traders. (i) will be held from 12 to 18 October 1997, marking the 10th anniversary of this Nursing Homes annual event, and Senator NEAL (New South Wales)—I give (ii) provides an opportunity to recognise the notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall scale of the plight of refugees around the move: world and the human suffering associated with being a refugee, and especially the That the Senate— effect on children; (a) condemns the Federal Government’s imposi- (b) applauds the support of federal, state and tion of a nursing home entry fee, effective local governments and non-government on and from 1 October 1997; and organisations throughout Australia for National Refugee Week, which aims to (b) notes that: promote the well-being of refugees and to (i) older Australians will have to pay ap- recognise the contribution made by refugees proximately $40 000 to $100 000 to get to Australian society; and into a nursing home, (c) calls on the Government to extend the (ii) the Government has refused to exempt humanitarian program as a means of sup- the family home from assets tests unless porting all efforts to protect, support and a dependent or family member is also assist refugees, especially for the safe return living in the home, of refugees and displaced persons to their own homes. (iii) 90 per cent of nursing home entrants are living alone prior to entry, Retail Industry (iv) the family home is the only asset for over Senator MURRAY (Western Australia)—I 70 per cent of pensioners, give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I (v) many elderly Australians will be forced shall move: to sell the family home, That the Senate— (vi) negotiations with nursing homes at such (a) notes: an emotional time will put families and older Australians under enormous pres- (i) the Government response to the fair sure, trading report foreshadows that the Government is sponsoring talks between (vii) the Government has effectively intro- the Property Council of Australia, repre- duced a 25 per cent tax on pensioners senting landlords, and the Australian to use nursing home beds, and Retailers Association (ARA), representing tenants, on developing national standards (viii) the Federal Government’s changes will for retail tenancy contracts, introduce a high quality standard of care for those who can afford the high (ii) that a large number of small business entry fees and a lower quality standard organisations which, unlike the ARA, to care for those who cannot afford represent exclusively small business high entry fees or live in areas with a interests are not named as being included high number of concessional nursing in the talks, and home residents. (iii) that many of these small businesses do not feel adequately represented by the Finance and Public Administration ARA which also represents the interests References Committee of the large chain retailers and which has been opposed to strengthening the Trade Senator ALLISON (Victoria)—I withdraw Practices Act to protect small business business of the Senate notice of motion No. interests; and 4. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7357

Employment, Education and Training notwithstanding the technicalities of References Committee mineral leases; and Senator CONROY (Victoria)—On behalf (b) calls on the Government to: of Senator Faulkner, I give notice that, on the (i) take a decision on Jabiluka that is based next day of sitting, he will move: on the broadest possible criteria, (ii) take note of the environmental, radiologi- That the following matter be referred to the cal, heritage, tourism and foreign affairs Employment, Education and Training References ramifications of such a decision, and Committee for inquiry and report by 30 October 1997: (iii) proceed no further with the Jabiluka uranium proposal. Matters associated with the South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd project under the Training for Employ- Human Rights ment Program. Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—I Uranium give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: Senator BROWN (Tasmania)—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall That the Senate— move: (a) notes that the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr Downer) will, on 3 October 1997, That the Senate— address the United Nations (UN) on (a) notes that: Australia’s human rights record in the context of the UN’s annual series of (i) a draft and a final environmental impact nations’ addresses; statement have been produced for the Jabiluka uranium project, (b) congratulates the Minister for undertaking this address; and (ii) the final environmental impact statement has been evaluated by Environment (c) encourages the Minister to raise at the UN Australia, issues relating to a series of human rights concerns, including: (iii) the evaluation by Environment Australia has confirmed concerns relating to the (i) the authority the Coalition Government impact of the project on wilderness and invests in such bodies as the UN Com- World Heritage values and the impact of mittee on Economic, Social and Cultural radioactive tailings, Rights, the UN Committee on Human Rights and the UN Committee on Women (iv) the departmental evaluation of the project to comment on Australia’s human rights noted, on p.102, that ‘The decision to performance, proceed with this or any proposal requir- ing disposal of radioactive tailings implies (ii) the reasons why Australia’s reports to acceptance of the possibility that those these bodies are so long overdue, tailings may become exposed to the (iii) Australia’s ongoing human rights dialogue environment some time in the future’, with China, including the way in which the Coalition’s relationship in this regard (v) the Aboriginal traditional owners of the builds on the work of the two previous area, the Australian Conservation Founda- human rights delegations to that country, tion and a coalition of Australian and overseas environment and indigenous (iv) the nomination of a person to replace the peoples groups, including the Threatened outgoing Australian chair of the UN Peoples Society and Friends of the Earth Committee on Economic, Social and International, representing 56 national Cultural Rights, Professor Alston, groups, have written to the World Heri- (v) the reasons why the Foreign Affairs tage Committee calling on the committee White Paper recommends a move away to place Kakadu on the list of World from multi-lateralism in favour of bilater- Heritage in Danger, al diplomacy and the effects this might (vi) according to recent surveys, approximate- have for raising human rights issues with ly 80 per cent of the Australian electorate Australia’s bilateral partners, does not support mining in national parks, (vi) Australia’s support for the Ottawa land- and mines ban treaty, (vii) the Jabiluka project is regarded as (vii) Australia’s cuts in funding to programs being within the Kakadu National Park which would address the realisation of 7358 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

the economic, social and cultural rights That business of the Senate notice of motion No. of Aboriginal peoples, including the 3, standing in the name of Senator Forshaw for provision for ‘buckets of extinguish- today, relating to the reference of a matter to the ment’ of native title, Economics References Committee, be postponed till (viii) Australia’s position with respect to the next day of sitting. refugees and asylum seekers, and Commonwealth Ombudsman (ix) cuts to the legal aid system, the funding of the Commonwealth Ombudsman, the Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: Family Court and High Court of Austral- ia, and the drastic cuts to, and remodel- That general business notice of motion No. 794 ling of, the Human Rights and Equal standing in the name of Senator Margetts for today, Opportunity Commission. relating to the presentation and consideration of reports by the Ombudsman, be postponed till the ORDER OF BUSINESS next day of sitting. First Speech Travel Allowances Motion (by Senator Tambling) agreed to: Motion (by Senator Bourne) agreed to: That consideration of the business before the That general business notice of motion No. 795 Senate this day be interrupted at approximately standing in the name of Senator Bourne for today, 4.00 p.m., but not so as to interrupt a Senator proposing an order for the production of documents speaking, to enable Senator Lightfoot to make his by the Leader of the Government in the Senate first speech, for a period not exceeding 20 minutes, (Senator Hill), be postponed till 21 October 1997. without any question before the Chair. Environment, Recreation, COMMITTEES Communications and the Arts References Rural and Regional Affairs and Committee Transport Legislation Committee Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: Extension of Time That business of the Senate notice of motion No. Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request 2 standing in the name of Senator Margetts for of Senator Crane)—by leave—agreed to: today, relating to the reference of a matter to the Environment, Recreation, Communications and the That the time for the presentation of the report Arts References Committee, be postponed till the of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport next day of sitting. Legislation Committee on the provisions of the Wheat Marketing Amendment Bill 1997 be extend- Kalpana Chakma ed to 23 October 1997. Motion (by Senator Bourne) agreed to: ORDER OF BUSINESS That general business notice of motion No. 791 Child Care standing in the name of Senator Bourne for today, relating to the abduction of Kalpana Chakma, be Motion (by Senator Neal) agreed to: postponed till the next day of sitting. That general business notice of motion No. 770 standing in the name of Senator Neal for today, COMMITTEES relating to the child-care, be postponed till 22 October 1997. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee Antipersonnel Mines Extension of Time Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: That general business notice of motion No. 754 Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request standing in the name of Senator Margetts for today, of Senator Abetz)—by leave—agreed to: relating to landmines, be postponed till 20 October That the time for the presentation of the report 1997. of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Com- Economics References Committee mittee on the provisions of the Administrative Decisions (Effect of International Instruments) Bill Motion (by Senator Forshaw) agreed to: 1997 be extended to 20 October 1997. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7359

BROADCASTING SERVICES The Government has also decided to apply to open AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) 1997 narrowcasting services the same restrictions regard- ing R-rated programs as currently apply to commer- First Reading cial television broadcasting services. These include the requirement that codes of practice must provide Motion (by Senator Tambling) agreed to: for modification of R-rated films to comply with That the following bill be introduced: a bill for the previous AO classification, and restrict the an act to amend the Broadcasting Services Act hours within which M and MA material may be 1992, and for related purposes. broadcast. Typically, open narrowcasters are community Motion (by Senator Tambling) agreed to: television services provided free-to-air, and without That this bill may proceed without formalities any limitation on access by children. It is con- and be now read a first time. sidered, therefore, that they should be subject to the same restrictions as apply to other free-to-air Bill read a first time. services in respect of the televising of R-rated Second Reading material. It is not proposed to prohibit R-rated material on Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- subscription television narrowcasting services. The tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Australian Subscription Television and Radio for Social Security) (4.04 p.m.)—I table the Association’s code of practice for subscription explanatory memorandum and move: television narrowcasters, which has been registered with the Australian Broadcasting Authority, re- That this bill be now read a second time. quires that the broadcast of R classified material on I seek leave to have the second reading subscription narrowcasting television services will speech incorporated in Hansard. be restricted to access by those with appropriate disabling devices, and services devoted predomi- Leave granted. nantly to adult erotica will be restricted to late The speech read as follows— night access only. I commend the bill to the Senate. The Broadcasting Services Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 seeks to amend the Broadcasting Services Ordered that further consideration of the Act 1992 to give effect to decisions in respect of second reading of this bill be adjourned until X and R-rated programs on narrowcasting services, the first day of sitting in the Autumn sittings which were included in a range of measures 1998, in accordance with standing order 111. announced by the Minister for Communications, the Information Economy and the Arts and the Attor- CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATION ney-General on 8 April 1997. Motion (by Senator Tambling,atthe Currently, X and R-rated programming is banned on subscription broadcasting services and on free- request of Senator Ian Campbell)—by to-air broadcasting services. However, narrow- leave—agreed to: casting services, that is, services limited in avail- That the provisions of paragraphs (5) to (7) of ability or appeal, are not prevented from providing standing order 111 not apply to the following bills, X and R-rated programming. allowing them to be considered during this period Increasingly, pay television companies are offering of sittings: extra channels of specialised programming through Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997 narrowcasting services. Such services provide pay Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997 television companies with an avenue to broadcast explicitly sexual material which mainstream National Firearms Program Implementation Bill television services are prohibited from showing. In 1997. response to considerable community concern, the Government has decided to amend the Broadcasting NATIVE TITLE Services Act to prohibit programs that have been Motion (by Senator Kernot) proposed: refused classification or have been classified as X on subscription television narrowcasting services That there be laid on the table, no later than 12 and also on open (free-to-air) narrowcasting pm on 2 October 1997, the following documents: services. This will serve to prohibit the depiction (a) all written and e-mail communications and of actual sexual acts (as provided for under the records of conversations, including tele- current X classification) across all television phone messages, between the Attorney- services, whether broadcast or narrowcast. General’s Department and the office of the 7360 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Attorney-General (Mr Williams) relating to Question put. the submission by the Australian Law Reform Commission (ALRC) concerning the The Senate divided. [4.09 p.m.] Native Title Amendment Bill, the Govern- (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret ment’s 10-point plan, and the current in- Reid) quiry by the Joint Committee on Native Ayes ...... 29 Title and the Torres Strait Islander Land Fund; Noes ...... 28 —— (b) the submission or submissions of the ALRC Majority ...... 1 on the Native Title Amendment Bill and the —— Government’s 10-point plan; AYES (c) all written and e-mail communications, Allison, L. Bishop, M. including telephone messages, and records Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. of conversations between the ALRC and the Brown, B. Campbell, G. Attorney-General’s Department and the Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. office of the Attorney-General relating to Conroy, S. * Cooney, B. the submission by the ALRC concerning the Denman, K. J. Forshaw, M. G. Native Title Amendment Bill and the Gov- Gibbs, B. Harradine, B. ernment’s 10-point plan and the current Hogg, J. Kernot, C. inquiry by the Joint Committee on Native Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. Title and the Torres Strait Islander Land Mackay, S. Margetts, D. Fund; McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. (d) all written and e-mail communications, Murray, A. Neal, B. J. including telephone messages, and records Ray, R. F. Schacht, C. C. of conversations between the ALRC and the Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. Joint Committee on Native Title and the Woodley, J. Torres Strait Islander Land Fund concerning NOES the current inquiry into the Native Title Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. Amendment Bill and the Government’s 10- Boswell, R. L. D. Calvert, P. H. * point plan including, but not limited to, Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. correspondence from the secretariat and the Coonan, H. Crane, W. chair; Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. (e) all written and e-mail communications and Gibson, B. F. Heffernan, W. records of conversations, including tele- Herron, J. Hill, R. M. phone messages, between the ALRC and Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. the: Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. (i) Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. Minister (Senator Minchin), McGauran, J. J. J. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. Payne, M. A. (ii) Prime Minister (Mr Howard) and his Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. department, and Tambling, G. E. J. Watson, J. O. W. (iii) Attorney-General and his department; PAIRS concerning the current inquiry into the Carr, K. Newman, J. M. Native Title Amendment Bill and the Gov- Cook, P. F. S. Troeth, J. ernment’s 10-point plan; and Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. (f) all written and e-mail communications, Evans, C. V. Ferris, J. including telephone messages, and records Faulkner, J. P. Minchin, N. H. of conversations between the ALRC and O’Brien, K. W. K. Vanstone, A. E. the: Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. (i) Prime Minister and his department, Sherry, N. Tierney, J. (ii) the Attorney-General and his department, * denotes teller and Question so resolved in the affirmative. (iii) Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister; NORTH-WEST CAPE concerning the current inquiry into the Native Title Amendment Bill and the Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: Government’s 10-point plan. That the Senate— Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7361

(a) notes that: COMMITTEES (i) the Western Australian Environment Scrutiny of Bills Committee Protection Authority (EPA) has recom- mended approval for oil and gas explor- Report ation on the North-West Cape, and Senator CONROY (Victoria)—At the (ii) the Conservation Council of Western request of Senator Cooney, I present the 13th Australia and other environment groups report of 1997 of the Senate Standing Com- have called on the Premier of Western mittee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I also lay on Australia (Mr Court) to initiate moves to the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest No. 13 have the Cape Range Peninsula/Ningaloo 1997, dated 1 October 1997. Marine Park/Exmouth region nominated for World Heritage listing due to its Ordered that the report be printed. interconnected and interreliant areas of unique biological, geological, archaeologi- Community Affairs References cal and aesthetic value; and Committee (b) calls on the Minister for the Environment Report (Senator Hill) to consult with the Western Senator BISHOP (Western Australia) (4.14 Australian Minister for the Environment p.m.)—I present the report of the Community (Ms Edwardes) to ensure that the EPA’s Affairs References Committee on the CJD recommendation is not implemented and, instead, a full environment protection policy settlement offer, together with submissions process is implemented to ensure that the and the transcript of evidence. importance of the area is fully understood Ordered that the report be printed. and statutory processes are in place before any decisions are made about development Senator BISHOP—I move: activities in the region to ensure that future That the Senate take note of the report. activities on the Cape are ecologically sustainable. This inquiry was established following public expressions of concern by recipients of human NOTICES OF MOTION pituitary hormone at the fairness and adequa- cy of the legal settlement being offered by the Introduction of Legislation Commonwealth to the hormone recipients treated under the Australian human pituitary Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- program. This program ran from 1965 to 1985 tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the treatment of infertility and short for Social Security)—I give notice that, on the stature. It was suspended in 1985 following next day of sitting, I shall move: deaths overseas from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease which had been linked to pituitary That the following bill be introduced: A bill for an act to amend the law relating to telecommunica- hormone treatment. tions, and for related purposes. Telecommunica- In Australia, the deaths of five hormone tions Legislation Amendment Bill 1997. recipients from CJD had occurred by 1992. Senator Brown—Madam Deputy President, Legal action for compensation for ‘nervous I seek clarification. Earlier, if I heard cor- shock’ on learning of the possibility of con- rectly, a senator asked that we give consider- tracting CJD as a result of treatment was ation to Senator Lightfoot speaking at 4 p.m. commenced in 1993 by a number of recipients Wasn’t it meant to be 5 p.m.? in both Melbourne and Sydney. The settle- ment offer was made by the Commonwealth Senator Calvert—No, it was intended to be prior to any case going to court. between 4 p.m. and 5 p.m. The committee received a large volume of The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Approx- evidence—nearly 140 submissions, both imately, and it will not interrupt any senator public and confidential, mostly from people speaking. who were hormone recipients. The views and concerns expressed to the committee were Senator Brown—Thank you. quite varied. 7362 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

The committee sat for over 25 hours to hear Margaret Allars. Professor Allars reported in evidence from in excess of over 60 witnesses. June 1994, making a number of recommenda- Much of the evidence was conflicting and tions relating to issues including: the alloca- contradictory. Much of it was of a scientific tion of funds for CJD research; the activities or technical nature and hence open to differ- of the CJD task force; the establishment of an ent forms of analysis, differing conclusions advisory committee; fostering support groups; and, indeed, varying interpretations. Some enhanced counselling services; review of witnesses saw the committee as a forum to NHMRC guidelines on human experimenta- seek expiation of feelings of guilt. Other saw tion; transplantation of organs and tissues it as a vehicle to demand legal redress in from cadavers; guidelines for the provision of either civil or criminal courts. A few sought information to patients by medical practi- compensation; many sought an acknowledg- tioners; and amendment of the National ment of pain and suffering from the Common- Health Act to ensure information can be wealth. A number of witnesses broke down in released directly to members of the public and front of the committee. All committee mem- that special arrangements applying to the bers were greatly affected by the great suffer- distribution of pharmaceutical benefits are ing endured by recipients and family mem- appropriate. The committee concluded that, bers. What commenced as a passage of hope generally, the recommendations have been ad- for many infertile persons ended as a disaster equately implemented, although there were for some. some areas where the committee has recom- It should be noted that this was an all-party mended that additional action be taken. committee. It comprised three government Secondly, the committee was asked to senators, three opposition senators, an Austral- consider claims that the government refused ian Democrats senator and Senator Harradine to make certain documents related to the from Tasmania. There were no party divisions inquiry available to recipients. The committee or differences pursued by individual members was advised that discovery processes relating of the committee. Accordingly, the unanimous to the Allars and other documents were nature of the report and the unanimous set of agreed between the Commonwealth and the recommendations are proof of the desire of legal firms representing the litigating recipi- the committee that the government give effect ents. The committee received considerable to all recommendations. evidence on allegedly missing or destroyed Some recommendations go to matters of documents. The committee was satisfied that process, keeping of records and dispersal of none of the Allars documents had been lost or information in both a timely and sensitive destroyed. However, a range of possibly manner. Other recommendations require relevant departmental and CSL files have significant government departments to review been destroyed, apparently in accordance with their methods of operation and not be purely standard Australian Archives procedures. reactive. Other recommendations have modest Thirdly, the committee was asked to con- budgetary implications for government. One sider the Commonwealth’s offer of settlement. of the two key recommendations is that all of The Commonwealth offered to litigants and the new evidence brought before the commit- then to all recipients on 4 April 1997 to pay tee be rigorously reviewed by Professor compensation in the event that a recipient Allars. actually contracted CJD. The Commonwealth The committee was asked to consider a also undertook to pay legal costs of the number of specific issues in its terms of litigants and that benefits under the pituitary reference. Firstly, it was asked to consider the hormone trust account would not be affected. adequacy of the response to the report by The Commonwealth did not agree to pay Professor Allars. Following increasing public damages in relation to nervous shock. awareness and media interest arising from Major concerns expressed to the committee CJD deaths of hormone recipients, an inquiry related to the failure of the settlement offer to was established in 1993, headed by Professor recognise psychiatric injury and the deadlines Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7363 within which the offer had to be accepted. A application for legal aid was originally made related issue was an alleged threat by the in May 1995 and was considered for eligibili- Commonwealth to enforce costs against the ty under three non-statutory schemes. The plaintiffs. The committee was informed that application was eventually rejected for fund- the initial deadline was 24 April 1997. This ing in August 1996. The committee received was subsequently extended to 30 June and detailed evidence on the consideration under then, in accordance with a request by the each scheme and the review of decisions Senate, until the government’s response to the which applied to this particular application. committee’s inquiry was known. While most recipients regarded the time frame as insuffi- The committee was advised that in early cient, the committee was advised that the 1996 the Attorney-General’s Department was usual acceptance period in Supreme Court of the view that it was an appropriate case to matters was seven to 14 days. receive legal aid funding under the cases of national importance scheme. However, the The committee was concerned that some proposed costs of the case would have used recipients felt pressured to settle by reason of about half the total money available under the deadline. Of greater concern was the that scheme. The department intended to seek financial situation of many plaintiffs—that ministerial and cabinet approval for additional without legal aid they could not pursue their funding when the election intervened. case. The committee accepted that people who suffered psychiatric injury should be compen- Following the election, guidelines for sated. This is a key recommendation that may eligibility to receive legal aid changed and the be found as recommendation 6. The commit- application was no longer eligible for the tee has recommended that without conceding particular scheme. The committee has noted the likelihood or otherwise of a legal action that, as governments change, legal aid guide- on psychiatric stress succeeding, the Com- lines change and eligibility criteria change. monwealth should also offer payment, through There is a limitation to the funds available for the allocation of additional funds to the trust legal aid, and apparently meritorious cases are account, to recipients who have evidence that not always able to be funded. The committee they have suffered psychiatric injury as a has no doubt that the denial of legal aid result of treatment under the AHPHP. The placed pressure on many plaintiffs and their Commonwealth should consider extending legal advisers and influenced their decision to this offer of payment to include recipients accept the settlement offer. who have suffered psychological stress or Fifthly, the committee also considered significant life disturbance. The committee whether public safety in relation to the pitui- has also recommended that unapproved tary hormone program had been adequately recipients who are formally identified and protected. In this regard, the committee relied accepted as such should be eligible for the heavily on the report of Professor Allars. This settlement arrangements. report contains adverse findings and many The committee further recommends that a instances of deficiencies and illegalities formal acknowledgment should be made by associated with the establishment of the the Commonwealth of: the deficiencies in the scheme, the collection of glands and prepara- operation and oversight of the hormone tion of hormones, the role of government program; the experimental nature of aspects agencies, and the decisions and actions of the of the treatment under the program; and the department following the suspension of the anxiety and stress that has been caused to hormone program. hormone recipients. The evidence received by the committee Fourthly, the committee looked into wheth- tended to confirm the various findings made er legal aid was unfairly denied. Eligibility for by Professor Allars. Not only were these legal aid is a complex question. Applications findings not disputed by the committee, but need to be made in accordance with guide- the evidence also provided information which lines operating for particular schemes. The may not have been available to the Allars 7364 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 inquiry and could lead to an expansion of in relation to this probable new case appeared some of the Allars findings. slow and reactive and lacking in compassion Much of this evidence involved scientific and sympathy at a time of considerable stress argument and focused on quite specific for the recipient and her family. The commit- aspects of the hormone program. Particular tee has recommended that the department put issues raised in this evidence and referred to in place protocols to ensure sympathetic early in the committee’s report included the collec- intervention so that information and assistance tion of pituitary glands, deficiencies in the is provided as soon as a recipient is suspected development of and compliance with exclu- to have contracted CJD. sion criteria, the processing of pituitaries— Finally, I should acknowledge the excellent concerns with screening of glands—quality work carried out in a very short time frame assurance and contamination, potency testing by the staff of the Community Affairs Refer- and compliance with good manufacturing ences Committee. They had to collate a large practice, developing knowledge and awareness number of bulky and often highly technical of the transmissibility of CJD, and supervision submissions, arrange for a large number of of the product and the program. witnesses to be heard in a relatively short The committee was unable to make an space of time and carry out a large degree of authoritative judgement on the merits of the liaison work with a range of departments. The scientific and technical information provided quality of the committee’s report is in no in evidence to the committee. It considered small measure due to the high degree of that some of this information raised serious professionalism they brought to its prepara- concerns and warranted a further review. tion. In the final analysis, however, it is a (Extension of time granted) The committee report of this Senate and I wish to thank them therefore recommended that, in view of the for their hard work. I commend the report and availability of further information—much of its recommendations to the government. which is conflicting in its nature—which may Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) not have been considered by the Allars (4.26 p.m.)—My comments on this CJD inquiry, Professor Allars be invited to review, report of the Community Affairs References with the necessary independent scientific Committee will be brief in view of its com- advice, this further information on scientific prehensive nature. In speaking on behalf of matters concerning the AHPHP, which has government senators, I think it is significant become available since the Allars inquiry to note the extent of the concern by the reported and, if Professor Allars is unavail- government members of the committee for able, that another suitably qualified independ- those affected by the sadness of the CJD ent person be invited to undertake the review. issues. Those who have suffered and died The committee also considered action taken from this terrible disease have our deepest by government agencies following the cessa- sympathy, as do their families. tion of the program in 1985. Evidence was We commend the recommendations of the received which raised concerns over the committee to the Senate. I am sure that approach adopted in relation to a number of everyone associated with the inquiry would actions, including the tracing of both ap- agree that the committee has inquired into the proved and unapproved hormone recipients, terms of reference thoroughly, as has been the provision of information about CJD and demonstrated by Senator Bishop’s comments other issues to recipients, and the release of just concluded. identifiable information to blood banks and I would like to thank Senator Bishop, as organ and tissue agencies. The committee chairman of the committee, for his particular- made a number of recommendations to ad- ly constructive approach and ensuring that we dress these concerns. achieved a unanimous report. It was a diffi- The committee received the sad and disturb- cult issue. The work that Senator Bishop put ing evidence late in the inquiry of a probable into ensuring the unanimous report is some- sixth case of CJD. The department’s actions thing of which he should be very proud. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7365

I would also like to thank the secretary of Senator LEES (South Australia—Deputy the committee, Mr Elton Humphrey, and his Leader of the Australian Democrats) (4.30 staff for the excellent work they did in pro- p.m.)—I would like to thank the committee viding the support that is so crucial to a staff for their dedication, for the enormous committee such as this. The issues were volume of work they got through in a very particularly emotive and complex. The work short period of time, and for the excellence of that the committee secretariat put into ensur- this final report. I also commend the chair for ing that the facts were presented to the sena- the work that was done in making sure this tors cannot be underestimated. was a majority report with no dissent and, I would also like to recognise the work of indeed, for getting a set of recommendations Senator Lightfoot. He is not speaking on this that everyone could agree to. In particular, I report at this stage, because he is waiting in thank Senator Harradine for his meticulous the wings, so to speak, to make his first research and questioning, and Senator speech in this chamber. Ironically enough, Lightfoot, the government senator who that speech is going to follow the discussion worked with us most of the time but who, on this report today. He may choose to speak unfortunately, cannot come into the chamber on this issue at a later date. He contributed, to comment on this report today as he has not in my unavoidable absence during the recess yet made his first speech. when I was on electorate duties, to ensuring I think I am right in saying that this was a that the government was represented well on difficult and, at times, emotive issue for the committee. members of the committee. But we have to Government senators are particularly sup- acknowledge that it is a devastating problem portive of the recommendation to ask Profes- for the people caught up in this situation. sor Allars to do further work. We believe that Hopefully, this committee’s unanimous report it is essential that hormone recipients and will be another step along the road to justice their families, who have been subject to for them and that it will ensure those people considerable uncertainty in the past, do not are supported, and not just financially. I will face any more uncertainty. Therefore, I am draw attention to a recommendation that sure the government will move as quickly as relates to this area. It goes beyond just finan- possible to request Professor Allars to under- cial support; it goes to recognition of the take the work recommended by the commit- experimental nature of these programs, recog- tee. In the event that Professor Allars is not nition of the difficulties they and their fami- available to do so, I am sure that the govern- lies now face, particularly in light of the sixth ment will appoint a similarly appropriately case. We must now think of all those people qualified and objective person to undertake who can go back through the batch numbers this work. and, perhaps, link their own treatment to the same batch as the sixth victim. From discussions that I have had with the Minister for Health and Family Services, Dr One of the key recommendations does Wooldridge, in the consideration prior to this involve money, and I hope that the govern- committee really getting under way, the ment does not step back from it. Indeed, I government is particularly keen to respond to would not just recommend to the Senate that any committee recommendations at an early this report be accepted. I would also recom- date. The government members of the com- mend to the government that the recommen- mittee very much empathise with the concerns dations be followed. Recommendation No. 6 and extreme sadness of recipients and their says that an additional allocation of funds to families. I am sure the government in its the trust account has to be made, and that the response will reflect its real understanding purpose should be widened to include those that issues connected to CJD are about people people who are able to show that they do and their families at a very profound level. I have psychiatric injury, psychological stress certainly commend the report to the Senate as or significant life disturbance as a result of a very constructive document. being part of this program. We are talking 7366 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 about men and women, most of whom have hormonal material that they were after—the families who are also very much affected by line would become contaminated. this. Despite a lot of technical evidence before I want to refer to some of the issues that are the committee, I still had great difficulty very much in the minds of some of those who accepting that all of these warnings were out are still involved with litigation. In particular, there but that somehow the message did not I call on the government to make it far easier get through. Certainly, patients were never for these people to access the documents they informed of the likelihood of any problems of need. This has been covered in the recom- any sort of contamination of the material that mendations quite clearly, but we should not they were receiving. have these barriers put in place for people We looked at some of the history of the who are trying to get justice. knowledge of CJD. It was a disease that was We are not just talking about official first identified and described in 1920. In recipients. One of the points made, as we 1968, the transmissibility of the disease in listened to the witnesses, was that there are a monkeys was understood. In 1974, the first number of unofficial recipients; that some transmission in people, through a corneal doctors kept spare material on one side and transplant, was acknowledged. And, again in treated a number of other patients experi- 1974, there were warnings beginning to mentally. Tracing them, as well as tracing the appear in international medical literature. But, rest of the recipients, is something that, somehow, those involved in the programs hopefully, the department will facilitate very here at all the various stages—whether it was speedily. those actually running the program, those The deficiencies of the program must be overseeing the program or those in the depart- acknowledged. I think that many of those who ments—did not heed the messages. We never came before us found it very difficult to really established whether people were not appear before the committee and, in front of reading these international reports and, there- others, go through the trauma they and their fore, were not reading about the difficulties, families have been through. We have to now but the message certainly was not getting look at an acknowledgment of the various through. deficiencies within the programs, going back In 1977 a Nobel Prize winning paper to issues such as the collection of the glands contained warnings about CJD. That is where and the fact that some, it seems, were col- the British have drawn the line as far as lected illegally. The report, at page 125, says: compensation is concerned. They have basi- Although exclusion criteria were established, the cally said that, as it was understood in 1977, Allars Inquiry found that there was a failure to people certainly should have made themselves communicate the criteria to the pathologists and aware of the most up-to-date research regard- mortuary attendants who removed the glands. ing this issue, and compensation is payable Stage by stage, as we worked through the after that. processes followed to get this program up and I will not go into many of the details in running, we found that there were breaks in terms of the rest of the recommendations. I communications and that information which will just say, in closing, that I hope this report was available was not flowing through to goes some way to offering some comfort and many of the people making the decisions. additional support to all those people who We did use the Allars documents quite a were so active in requesting that this be bit. We noted that that inquiry looked at the looked at by the Senate. I hope that it will warnings that were not heeded from people also be of some comfort to those who have like Dr Whitten of the National Biological been so upset by the way in which the settle- Standards Laboratory. He noted in 1966 that, ment was made and who were feeling that because large particles, including viruses, they were forced to sign on the dotted line—it would precede the hormone through the seems that even the threat of losing their column—this is the extraction process for the homes was understood to be hanging over the Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7367 heads of many—and accept the government’s technological imperative driving so much offer. medical research and the application of The government’s offer really added up to medical research. The driving force in many nothing more than waiting until people were of these areas is the technological imperative confirmed to have CJD—mostly that is post- that what can be done should be done and it mortem—and then compensation would be is done, very often, with insufficient attention payable. I think we had an admission that it to proper procedure, health risks and informed was really not much more than was available consent. already. As Dr David Howes, the former chief I hope that the government accepts these virologist and head of the biologicals branch unanimous recommendations and that they do of the National Biological Standards Labora- not sit on a shelf somewhere for month after tory, the NBSL, told the committee: month waiting for something to be done. It is the consumers who will pay the heaviest price Despite the fact that there are recommenda- . . . when the duty of care plays second fiddle to tions here that do involve money, and despite other imperatives... the fact that some members of the committee These are very important matters indeed. Our felt that there could have been some stronger examination of the whole CJD episode pro- recommendations, I stress that they are unani- vided a window into lax processes and cover- mous and I hope that this government will act ups by those responsible for regulating human upon them as soon as is possible. experimentation and by those whose grave Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (4.38 duty it is to ensure the highest standards in p.m.)—I take this opportunity of expressing the regulation and manufacture of biological appreciation to Senator Lees, the last speaker, products derived from blood, tissue and and to the members of the Senate Community organs. Affairs References Committee—particularly Women seeking help for infertility, and men to the chair and to the secretariat. A mighty and women of short stature were essentially job has been done. I also express my gratitude guineapigs in an unlawful experiment which to the committee and to the Senate in enab- has so far killed four women and one man. ling me to become a participating member of Another woman is believed to be dying from the committee for the duration of this inquiry. the disease. I, of course, welcomed the establishment of Every day, recipients must live with the the inquiry into aspects of CJD, the possibility that they could be living incubators government’s response to the Allars report, of the human equivalent of mad cow disease. the treatment of recipients of human pituitary I urge my Senate colleagues to read their hormones and whether certain government distressing testimonies to try to comprehend bodies failed to protect public safety. the depth of their suffering. The recommendations that are contained in Of course, very little can be done other than this document—and I seriously recommend what is recommended in the committee report that honourable senators get the document and and people need to go through the traumatic study it—resulting from the inquiry are but, nevertheless, healing experience of modest, moderate and manageable. I do hope acceptance. They need to be encouraged to do that those to whom the recommendations are this and they need to be given all the support directed understand that. I believe that the that they require. Some of our recommen- recommendations could have been far more dations go to that very point. stringent but it must be indicated to the This report actually documents the mistreat- chamber that these are unanimous recommen- ment of these people—the recipients—at the dations. hands of those whose responsibility it was to The history of the human pituitary hormone ensure the highest standards were applied to program is a history of broken rules. It is experimentation on human subjects in Aust- another example of the deadly results of the ralia. 7368 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

CSL did not meet the requirements of the fact, has gaoled two doctors for manslaughter Australian regulatory authorities in the manu- and a pathologist in charge of the program for facture and distribution of the hormones. It poisoning. But in Australia no-one has been failed to follow world’s best practice in prosecuted. No-one has admitted fault. In the pooling and homogenising of glands. It failed words of one hormone recipient: ‘It is not the to comply with the codes of good manufactur- money that matters; it is the fact that people ing practice. It told pathologists to ignore the should be accountable for what they did to exclusion criteria about possible hepatitis- us.’ infected glands. It could be argued that all of this is with In evidence to the committee, Dr Wes hindsight. But there are certain universal Whitten, reproductive physiologist and former ethical principles which should be maintained assistant director of the National Biological and should have been maintained then. One Standards Laboratory, said: of them is: first do no harm. The second is: It was a shocking product. I cannot believe that this do not allow the science technologists to be could have been marketed. the ones who influence the setting of ethical Dr Frank Peters, formerly assistant and acting standards. You will note that we on the director of the NBSL, told the committee that committee have recommended to the NHMRC it was his opinion that: that the revision of the statement on human experimentation should be expedited. That not one batch of fertility hormone met all the will be done by the Australian Health Ethics regulatory standards and many did not even meet CSL’s own rudimentary standards. Committee. One of our worries is that the current IECs are in-house committees and, The lack of informed consent recurs time and therefore, are not totally separate from influ- again in the thousands of pages of submis- ence by science technologists and those with sions and transcripts. Recipients believed that a vested interest. the hormones were safe. They did not know that the HPG had not been evaluated for I commend the secretariat and the commit- clinical use before the program started. They tee members for their extremely hard work. I did not know they were receiving processed hope the recommendations will go some way material from dead bodies, some of which to providing justice and hope to the victims was 99 per cent impure. of the CJD legacy and contribute to higher, tighter standards in human experimentation Possibly the most damning indictment of and the protection of public safety. I seek the procedures for collecting the glands was leave to continue my remarks later. the statement by Dr P. Schiff, CSL’s repre- sentative on the Human Pituitary Hormone Leave granted; debate adjourned. Advisory Committee, HPHAC. He was Public Works Committee responsible to the then minster for health in Reports overseeing the program. He advised the gland collectors that, ‘Unless the body is badly Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (4.48 decomposed it is never too late to take the p.m.)—On behalf of the Joint Committee on gland.’ In other words, decomposing body Public Works, I present the following reports: parts could be removed and processed for use No. 9 of 1997, Development of operational in living humans. facilities at RAAF base Learmonth, Western Australia; and No. 10 of 1997, Redevelop- Conflicts of interest were rife. Those with ment of facilities for the 51st Battalion Far a vested interest in the program were also North Queensland Regiment throughout Far those supposed to be regulating the hormones. North Queensland and the Torres Strait. I There was enough information in 1966 to move: indicate that the program should not have been allowed to proceed. But it did, and was That the Senate take note of the reports. only shut down in May 1995. All overseas I seek leave to incorporate my tabling state- cases involving hormone recipients have been ments in Hansard. settled in favour of the recipients. France, in Leave granted. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7369

The statements read as follows— a number of safeguards and precautions to be adopted during and after construction of the project. The first report which I have tabled concerns the proposed development of operational facilities at The second report which I have tabled covers the RAAF Base Learmonth. The base is located on proposed redevelopment of facilities for the 51st North West Cape, Western Australia, 1,235 kilo- Battalion Far North Queensland Regiment through- metres north of Perth and the base covers an area out Far North Queensland and the Torres Strait. By of approximately 2550 hectares, situated on the way of background, I should mention that this coastal plain between Cape Range and Exmouth Army unit, with its headquarters in Cairns, is a Gulf. The nearest township, Exmouth, is 35 kilo- General Reserve Regional Force Surveillance Unit. metres north of the base. The role of the unit is to conduct reconnaissance and surveillance operations in Cape York Peninsu- RAAF Base Learmonth is a bare base which la, the Gulf country and Torres Strait. Elements of forms part of a chain of defensive airfields across the unit are widely dispersed over more than 20 northern Australia and is vital to the air defence of locations throughout its area of operations, which north-western Australia. The primary function of covers 640,000 square kilometres. the base is to serve as a deployment base for combat aircraft in a contingency. The base was During any move towards conflict, FNQR would developed during the early 1970s and 1980s and no be a vital element of the first three layers of land further development or major maintenance work defence. The unit’s observation posts or reconnais- has occurred since. sance patrols would be a vital source of initial strategic information which would provide early The proposal examined by the committee in- warning of any changing situation. Once other volved the construction of: explosive ordnance military forces are in place, the unit would operate loading aprons for fighter, strike and maritime in a zone well forward of any protected vital asset patrol aircraft—one apron will double as an explo- in Far North Queensland to provide a surveillance sive ordnance apron for transport aircraft; screen. alert facilities for fighter aircraft; operational and Before addressing the specifics of the proposed technical support facilities; ordnance preparation work, the committee sought to establish if the unit facilities; a central emergency power station; has an assured future, following the restructuring rehabilitation of existing airfield pavements; airfield of the Army. The committee was advised that this lighting equipment; and unit, the Pilbarra Regiment and NORFORCE—all regional force surveillance units—have an assured airfield lighting, engineering services and civil future. The committee also sought to establish if works. the recruitment of reservists can be sustained. The estimated out-turn cost of the proposed work Again, Defence advised that a fundamental princi- was $69 million. ple of recruitment is to recruit people from local communities who have specific knowledge and The committee has recommended that the work understanding of their areas and use this to support should proceed. After inspecting the base and the surveillance capability. conducting a public hearing at Exmouth, at which senior RAAF officers gave evidence, the committee The history of the unit has been characterised by concluded that there is a need for operational strong representation of members of local commu- facilities at RAAF Base Learmonth to be upgraded nities. At present, 40 per cent (200 members) of the to bring them into line with requirements designed unit are indigenous. It was also pointed out that the to enhance its capabilities for the deployment of unit is currently manned to its full establishment. fighter, strike and maritime aircraft in a safe and This is a good indication of the effectiveness of flexible manner. recruitment campaigns and a strong indicator of the support for the unit in Far North Queensland. The proposal attracted interest from local govern- ment authorities, who raised a number of issues The proposal involves the provision of facilities relating to the use of the main runway for regular which will enhance the unit’s ability to meet its public transport aircraft as well as the siting of a operational commitments and will involve the number of facilities within the civil aviation area. redevelopment of some existing facilities and the The downgrading of the runway’s pavement provision of new facilities. This work will address classification number by Defence was a matter of current deficiencies such as non-functionality, size, concern and the committee has recommended that non-compliance with building and occupational Defence should enter into further discussions with health and safety standards and location. The the Shire of Exmouth about the practicalities of proposal involves work at 22 locations. upgrading the pavement classification number of The committee concluded that, based on the the runway. The project was the subject of environ- evidence the general lack of modern storage facil- mental impact assessment and the report mentions ities and poor working conditions at headquarters, 7370 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 company headquarters and patrol locations are on those people in the bush whom John having an adverse impact on the ability of the unit served so well. I trust that I will be able to to undertake assigned tasks. fill, in some way at least, the boots that he so The proposed work encompasses: construction of untimely left behind. a new facility on the Queerah Meatworks site in Cairns for the Regimental Headquarters, Adminis- I want to declare that I am a republican—if tration Company, Alpha Company and 134 Region- a republic can place more bread on the na- al Cadet Unit; new company facilities at Weipa; tional table for those in need, if a republic can new platoon facilities at Atherton and Normanton; reduce national debt, if a republic can resolve upgrading of existing platoon facilities at Innisfail the problems between black and white Aus- and Bamaga; upgrading of the camp on Horn tralians, if a republic can bring with it honesty Island; upgrading of existing facilities at Normanby Street and the construction of new facilities at the and integrity through all levels of government, naval fuel installation site on Thursday Island; and if a republic will bind the commonwealth of provision of secure storage for vehicles, boats and states together in a mutual bond of trust and associated equipment at 14 patrol locations at fairness, if a republic will deliver lower Cooktown, Coen, Kowanyama, Aurukun, Pormpur- unemployment, particularly to our youth, and aaw, Lockhart River, Cloncurry, Burketown, if a republic will cause Western Australia to Mornington Island, Badu Island, Boigu Island, Yam Island, Darnley Island and York Island. The obtain a more equitable retention of the estimated out-turn cost of the proposed work is wealth it creates. $22.5 million. If the mooted republic, however, is to split The committee has recommended that the work us along sectarian or ethnic lines or rend the should proceed. The committee sought to establish if there will be opportunities for the local construc- fabric bandage that has bound us together for tion industry to be involved in the project. The nearly 100 years—one of the very few nations committee was advised that elements of the project on earth to have maintained a democracy for will be packaged to maximise opportunities for so long—then that will only reinforce my involvement by locally based companies. Normal conviction that the system of government we tendering processes will be followed. I commend have is by its history enviable. Then I will the reports to the Senate. remain under these circumstances a staunch Question resolved in the affirmative. advocate of the monarchical system. The PRESIDENT—Order! Before I call I am not always a supporter of the royal Senator Lightfoot, I remind honourable family, but of the system of government I am, senators that this is his first speech and I lest it be perceived as ambiguous, an unab- would therefore ask that the usual courtesies ashed admirer of Her Majesty the Queen be extended to him. Elizabeth II, one of the greatest women, I FIRST SPEECH believe, of the 20th century. Senator LIGHTFOOT (Western Australia) Political change has too often in history (4.49 p.m.)—Before I begin my speech this ended in tragedies—such as those which are afternoon I would like to again acknowledge being enacted in several discrete parts of the the contribution of the late Senator John globe currently—and brought with it blood- Panizza, whose position I was fortunate shed, hatred and division. I have no doubt enough, under unfortunate circumstances, to that the republican-monarchical debate will, take. I offer again to his wife Coral, his by its very nomenclature, degenerate into children and his family my condolences. I sectarian lines at least in part. Whether the knew John very well. John was a man of the issue attracts spontaneous advocates to its bush, something with which I associate ranks who believe that one or the other of the myself. His life’s interests, apart from his systems will be better for Australia remains family and his church, were farming and to be seen. Perhaps as never before in our mining, two pursuits I am vitally concerned history, except in times of war, will our with. I have given an undertaking that not youth, with their pristine minds and honest, only will I look after the people of Western uncluttered motives, play such a determining Australia, but I will particularly concentrate role in our future. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7371

There can be no minimalist change. It is not transferred to the High Court by itself, in a matter of crossing out ‘Queen’ and inserting effect, in the 1980s. ‘President’. It is not as simplistic as erasing How do we reform the highest court in the ‘King’, as when George VI died in 1952, and land? There are no practical limits to the inserting in its place ‘Queen’. It is a funda- legislature; it is ultimately all powerful, and mental alteration of our very constitutional should be so. Where constitutional limits as foundation. It will cause, before we are checks and balances do not evolve with the through with it, much heartache and vitriolic nation’s aspirations, then referenda can be dissent. resorted to. Governments must not lose their What part, we have to ask, will parliament nerve to the judiciary. play? What say will the people of Australia I accept unequivocally the concept of prior have? What role will the High Court adopt? settlement of Australia by Aborigines—first, Will the High Court, for instance, find that by the Oceanic negretos or the Tasmanoids, having a monarchical state is inconsistent remnants of whom are still in Victoria, some with a republican federation? What will be the of the Bass Strait islands and Tasmania; excuse if the longitudinal and latitudinal lines second, by the wave of Murrayians, who that separate the states are erased? crossed the Plains of Carpentaria many ice However much admired the promoters of ages ago; and the last and most significant change are, I would ask my fellow Austral- Aboriginal invasion by the Carpentarians, ians to look for the motive behind their probably no longer than 14,000 years ago or advocacy. Words can often blanket meaning even less. But one would have to ask: would and true reasons for the support of change. the High Court decisions on Mabo and Wik Change without benefit is nebulous. I wish have been upheld by the Privy Council in its Australians clear and honest thinking in this, entirety, if appeals were allowed? the most important constitutional issue to face My visit and subsequent correspondence to us since federation. that august body in London strongly suggests Madam President, I now turn to the High no! That is not to say that I do not accept the Court. The perceived aptitude that the High prior settlements or even a form of ownership. Court has of recent times to transgress upon What I do not accept is that the High Court the hallowed green and red carpets of the is omnipotent, infallible, or has the unique legislature deserves some comment. Since its god-given ability to speak ‘ex-cathedra’ on all inception in 1903, two years after federation, issues; or that its charter, significant of which the court, until the early 80s in the case of the was its role, as outlined by the founding Commonwealth, and the mid 80s in respect of fathers, to protect the states. It has, in too the states, had always had the collective and many recent cases, failed to do so. It has paternal eye of the London Privy Council to become centralist, somewhat arrogant and temper any constitutional excesses. The Privy insulated from the real Australian world. Council, in effect, was the last appellate court The High Court is the most manifest of the for the nation. nation’s tripartite machinery of powers. But With the statutory cessation of appeals to it is only a cog in that machine; it is not the the Privy Council, the High Court became the engine. The people of Australia are the last court of appeal for the Australian nation. engine, Madam President, and parliament The High Court did, however, acknowledge should mirror the people. that, whilst a residual path for the states to At the time that the High Court evolved to take constitutional issues to the Privy Council become our last court of appeal, reform was still existed—and still, in fact, exists—the needed. Constitutional restructuring of the High Court was not going to give its impri- High Court, in my view, is overdue. While matur to allow any such appeals. That begs the old adage, ‘power corrupts, absolute the question as to why no reform of the High power corrupts absolutely’, does not in its Court was undertaken when inordinate pow- literal form apply to the High Court—and I er—some would say, excessive power—was hasten to say that—there is a danger that 7372 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 integrally this essential institution may not by approximately $700 million in real terms, march separate from but in step with the with more to come. legislature and the executive. There would be no problems with our state’s hospitals, roads or schools if our High Court reform that reflects representa- forward planning—predicated on our share of tion from the states and territories is needed the federal cake being equitably distributed— to prevent the outlying states being over- was not reduced. It should never be forgotten whelmed by the Sydney-Melbourne-Canberra that it was the states which created the feder- axis. Furthermore, the High Court should be ation. Yet the federal child is dictating to the reminded of its initial role as a constitutional parental states in an increasingly worrying court that dealt specifically with constitutional manner, by controlling the purse strings which problems—rather than branching into the were in the possession of the six self-govern- realms of the legislature, as it is wont to do— ing states 96 years ago. and further reminded of its role to protect the states from the creeping erosion of their rights It should also be remembered that the states and the negative effect of centralism. in aggregate are infinitely stronger than the federal government, which produced as little With respect to states rights, since the as $30 per capita last fiscal year in the Aus- formation of this indissoluble federation of tralian Capital Territory. The fiscal erosion of states—long on gestation—in 1901, there the states—particularly Western Australia— have been arguments between the federal must stop if the federal government is to government and the states. Most have been survive as a contented institution into the well-justified. Western Australia, which third millennium. produces nearly 30 per cent of national export On this point, the Constitutional Conven- income and yet pays $1.5 billion more in tion, in my opinion, should include discus- taxes annually than it receives, has every sions on federal-state reformations; not wheth- reason to resent at times its treatment by the er the Northern Territory should necessarily increasingly centralist governments of Can- become a fully-fledged state—I do not think berra. If one were to take Mr Keating’s last we can afford that—but a sincere effort to budget as an example, although Western reform and to stop the erosion of the outlying Australia has 25 per cent of the national road states, which causes resentment and antipathy network, is one-third of the nation, contri- towards Canberra. butes, as I have said, 30 per cent of national When I think of Western Australia, I am export income and has about 10 per cent of reminded of Aeneas Gunn’s We of the Never the population, it was, nonetheless, only Never and her immortal words, ‘the tyranny allocated 8½ per cent of national road funding of distance’. Western Australia is the only by Mr Keating in 1995. mainland state not to have a direct flight to Again, over the last four years, in spite of Canberra. Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, the massive contribution the state makes to Adelaide and even Newcastle and Coolangatta the nation’s coffers—we have the biggest do but neither Western Australia nor the diamond mine in the world, the biggest cherub state of Tasmania do. Recently— alumina powder provider in the world and the today, in fact—the federal aviation authority biggest delineated reserves of iron ore, we announced that Malaysia and New Zealand boast the biggest port in terms of tonnage in would be granted direct flights to the national the world, rank with the biggest in production capital. While I welcome those initiatives, the of gold, nickel and rutile, we will probably be insult to Western Australia must be abundant- the biggest producer of wheat in the nation ly clear. this year and we are the biggest producer of We are yet to have a representative in the petroleum gas condensate in the nation—our federal cabinet. I trust that that anomaly will Commonwealth grants, including tied grants, be rectified during what must be, at a guess, which are part of a system which could be a cabinet reshuffle. While the Commonwealth described as fiscal slavery, have been slashed has increased its spending by 21 per cent over Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7373 the same decade, we suffer both the iniquitous 1974, I present a proposal by the National tied grants that have increased from 46 per Capital Authority, on behalf of the Domestic cent to 55 per cent in a decade and are the Property Group within the Department of chains of a centralist slaver around our necks Administrative Services, to carry out work and a decrease of 8 per cent in funding to within the Parliamentary Zone, being addi- Western Australia. tional external works to the East Block From Perth to Darwin an undefended building, together with supporting documen- coastline which includes in its perimeter Port tation and seek leave to give a notice of Hedland—the biggest tonnage port in the motion in relation to the proposal. world, as I have mentioned—and the North Leave granted. West Shelf, the nation’s biggest producer of Senator PARER—I give notice that, on the petroleum hydrocarbons, adjacent and con- next day of sitting, I shall move: tiguous to that coastline. That, in accordance with section 5 of the Parlia- Unlike South Australia, which has never ment Act 1974, the Senate approves the proposal had a High Court judge, at least Western by the National Capital Authority, on behalf of the Australia does boast one and, at times, two. Domestic Property Group within the Department of With the implementation of Mabo and Wik, Administrative Services, to carry out work within we have massive problems—unique to West- the Parliamentary Zone, being additional external ern Australia—which require special attention. works to the East Block building. We hope these will be addressed by the Wik Parliamentary Zone: Magna Carta 10-point plan. We believe that plan goes a Memorial long way to resolving those problems, so inherent and manifest in Western Australia. Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister for Resources and Energy)—In accordance Western Australia does have, as I pointed with the provisions of the Parliament Act out, unique problems; not ones associated 1974, I present a proposal by the National with its own making but more with the Capital Authority to carry out minor works increasing cost to it of federalism. During my within the Parliamentary Zone associated with time in the Senate, a position in which I am a proposal for a Magna Carta memorial at the honoured to serve my state, I intend to do just newly created Magna Carta Place, together that: serve my state to the best of my ability with supporting documentation and seek leave and, through it, the rest of the nation. I trust, to give a notice of motion in relation to the at the end of my tenure, my home state of proposal. Western Australia is better served and strong- er for me being here. I thank you Madam Leave granted. President for your indulgence and I thank you Senator PARER—I give notice that, on the fellow senators. next day of sitting, I shall move: Honourable senators—Hear, hear! That in accordance with section 5 of the Parlia- ment Act 1974, the Senate approves the proposal DOCUMENTS by the National Capital Authority, to carry out minor works within the Parliamentary Zone associ- Timor Gap Zone of Cooperation ated with a proposal for a Magna Carta memorial Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister at the newly created Magna Carta Place. for Resources and Energy)—I table the 1996 COMMITTEES annual report of the Australia-Indonesia Joint Authority for the Timor Gap Zone of Cooper- Membership ation. Four copies of the report have also The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT been lodged with the parliamentary library. (Senator Murphy)—I have received letters Parliamentary Zone: East Block Building from the party leaders seeking variations to Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister the membership of committees. for Resources and Energy)—In accordance Motion (by Senator Parer)—by leave— with the provisions of the Parliament Act agreed to: 7374 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

That senators be discharged from and appointed FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE to committees as follows: LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL 1997 Community Affairs Legislation Committee— The Foreign Affairs and Trade Legislation Amend- Participating member: Senator Forshaw for the ment Bill 1997 is an omnibus bill which amends consideration of the provisions of the Child Care five acts administered by this portfolio: Payments Bill 1997 and a related bill. . The International Organizations (Privileges and Immunities) Act 1963 (International Organisa- Employment, Education and Training Legislation tions Act) Committee— . The Chemical Weapons (Prohibition) Act 1994 Substitute member: Senator Abetz to replace (Chemical Weapons Act) and the Nuclear Senator Troeth from 7.30 p.m. till close of business Non-Proliferation (Safeguards) Act 1987 on 1 October 1997. (Nuclear Safeguards Act); and . The Consular Fees Act 1955 and the Passports FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE Act 1938. LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL The bill addresses a diverse range of issues, mainly 1997 of a technical nature, including meeting formal legal obligations in respect of international organi- TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT sations, strengthening international nuclear safe- BILL (No. 4) 1997 guards standards and false passport applications. ABORIGINAL LAND RIGHTS International Organisations Act (NORTHERN TERRITORY) The bulk of the amendments included in this AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) 1997 omnibus bill relate to the International Organisa- tions Act. These amendments update a nearly 35 First Reading year old act. They are necessary to keep pace with the increasing number and diversity of international Bills received from the House of Represen- organisations now being established. tatives. An important amendment will allow for the simul- Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister taneous entry into force of both the treaty establish- for Resources and Energy)—I indicate to the ing an international organisation and the regulations Senate that those bills which have just been relating to that organisation. Otherwise Australia could find itself in technical breach of treaty announced are being introduced together. obligations if there were to be a delay in imple- After debate on the motion for the second menting associated regulations. This amendment reading has been adjourned, I will be moving will be particularly useful when the treaty is a motion to have the bills listed separately on unlikely to enter into force until some years after the Notice Paper. I move: agreement has been reached to establish the organisation. That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time. Another of the more important moves in this bill is to tighten the definition of an international Question resolved in the affirmative. organisation which can be eligible for privileges and immunities. Bills read a first time. Australia only grants privileges and immunities Second Reading which are required under our international obliga- tions and commitments. When negotiating privileg- Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister es and immunities as part of international agree- for Resources and Energy) (5.13 p.m.)—I ments, this Government takes the line that specific table revise explanatory memoranda relating items should be included only where there is a to the bills and move: demonstrated functional need. We have to be satis- fied that the specific privilege or immunity is That these bills be now read a second time. necessary for the effective operation of the organi- I seek leave to have the second reading sation. speeches incorporated in Hansard Disarmament Issues—Chemical Weapons and Nuclear Safeguards Acts Leave granted. This bill also amends an oversight in the drafting The speeches read as follows— of the original Chemical Weapons Act. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7375

It is highly unlikely that an inspection team will in December 1997. The question of Australia’s ever have to come to Australia to investigate signing the Ottawa Treaty will be considered by another country’s allegation that Australia was in Cabinet in the coming weeks. breach of the Convention. Nevertheless, should this Australia does not produce and will not export occur, representatives of the country making such landmines. The existing stocks of landmines are an allegation will now be extended standard used only for training and research purposes. This diplomatic privileges and immunities, along with is important as it allows us to assist, through mine other members of the inspection team. clearance programs, countries such as Cambodia. Australia is committed to the international disarma- Mindful of the terrible human suffering caused by ment process and enjoys a well-deserved reputation landmines, this Government has significantly as a leading player internationally on arms control increased funding for international mine-clearance issues. That reputation has been enhanced by this and assistance to victims as well as working with Government’s successful efforts last year to help other countries to improve de-mining technology. bring to conclusion the Comprehensive Test Ban The Government has committed over $18 million Treaty—a goal sought after by the international since May 1996. community for over 20 years—as well as our work over the last year in leading the international drive The Government has also made major efforts to to gather sufficient ratifications to bring the Chemi- make headway in reducing the proliferation of cal Weapons Convention into force. weapons of mass destruction. The Government took the courageous step in September last year of The appointment in May of Dr John Gee, an officer salvaging the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban of the Department, as Deputy Director-General of Treaty from the Conference on Disarmament and the newly established Organisation for the Prohibi- submitting it to the UN General Assembly where tion of Chemical Weapons reflects wide recognition it was overwhelmingly endorsed. among parties to the Convention of Dr Gee’s professional background and experience. Moreover, The Government has also promoted the Report of this appointment reinforces Australia’s prominent the Canberra Commission on the Elimination of position in this sphere of disarmament activity. Nuclear Weapons. The Minister for Foreign Affairs presented the Report personally to the UN General Similarly, Australia’s reputation is further bolstered Assembly in New York last September and also to by the appointment of Richard Butler to the Chair the Conference on Disarmament this year, urging of the United Nations Special Commission its careful consideration by all governments. (UNSCOM), the body charged with ensuring the discovery and destruction of Iraq’s weapons of It is notable that the Commission’s recommenda- mass destruction. tions relating to the removal and destruction of nuclear warheads from delivery vehicles, and This Government’s commitment to the cause of transparency in accounting for the resultant fissile disarmament is evident in Australia’s substantial material, appear already to have been taken up. contribution to the international effort to address This was evident in the START III parameters the problems caused by the misuse of anti-person- agreed recently in Helsinki between Presidents nel landmines. Clinton and Yeltsin. In April last year the Minister for Defence and the Indeed, one of the major amendments in this bill is Minister for Foreign Affairs announced Australia’s to the Nuclear Safeguards Act. This will implement support for a global ban on the production, stock- the recently negotiated International Atomic Energy piling, use and transfer of these weapons. Agency—or IAEA—Protocol to strengthen safe- In international forums the Government has con- guards. This Protocol was developed as a compre- tinued to add its weight to the growing international hensive global response to some limitations with movement in favour of eliminating anti-personnel the IAEA safeguards system which were identified landmines as a weapon of war. following investigation of Iraq’s clandestine nuclear After Australia co-sponsored a pro-ban resolution weapons program. in the UN General Assembly in December last The new international system will supplement and year, the Minister for Foreign Affairs addressed the extend the IAEA’s existing safeguards agreements Conference on Disarmament in January this year, to increase assurances that states subject to compre- calling for work to begin on such a treaty. hensive safeguards have declared all safeguardable In addition, Australia has participated fully in the nuclear activities. international meetings and negotiations held in Australia signed the Protocol in Vienna on 23 1997 under the auspices of the "Ottawa Process"— September 1997 and was the first country to do so. a Canadian-sponsored initiative which has finalised, The Protocol will enter into force for Australia in an ad hoc forum of countries currently commit- when the Government notifies the IAEA that ted to a ban on anti-personnel landmines, a ban Australia’s statutory and constitutional requirements treaty which will be opened for signature in Ottawa for entry into force have been met. 7376 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

In Australia, Lucas Heights will be subjected to In particular, the Government will continue the increased international inspection. In addition, process of developing our capacity to respond to uranium mines and the area at Maralinga, will consular crises, epitomized in the establishment of possibly be subjected to international inspections. the Consular Response Group which was set up just The Australian Safeguards Office has consulted over a year ago. with the mine operators and with the private New technology is being applied to the consular company undertaking research and development at area of DFAT and a new 24 hour, Canberra-based Lucas Heights. They have raised no objections to duty officer consular service is currently being this stricter regime. tested. Consular Fees Act 1955 The system of honorary consuls will continue to be The amendments to the Consular Fees Act 1955 expanded and better training for our consular staff expand the categories of persons who can be will be provided. authorised to perform consular acts and charge the The emphasis on improved information for the prescribed fees to include locally engaged staff public has already produced a Consular Information (LES) overseas. Service in DFAT which will provide up-to-date The consular functions performed by Australian information to travellers. Our flow of information missions overseas include a wide range of legal to the public in other ways, including through a processes for the proper authentication of docu- continuing stress on timely and informative consu- ments, such as administering an oath, receiving a lar travel advices will continue to improve. declaration or affirmation, witnessing a signature, A critical element in this is ensuring that all signing and affixing seals, and making and certify- assistance is given to families in Australia of ing copies. consular clients, supporting them in what is often The Consular Fees Act 1955 provides for the a time of anguish and anxiety. charging of fees for consular acts performed by The Passports Act Australian diplomatic and consular officers and certain other officers of the Commonwealth. The last substantive amendment covered by this bill LES are employees, not officers, of the Common- relates to the Passports Act 1938. This amendment wealth Departments or agencies for the purposes of tightens the provision relating to the offence of relevant legislation. making false statements in relation to passport applications. It adds the concept of recklessness as However, there is no prohibition in international a mental element in the offence of making a false law or practice (in particular, the 1963 Vienna statement in a passport application or in support of Convention on Consular Relations) on LES per- an application. forming these functions as part of the staff of a mission. The issuing of Passports is of course an important service provided to the public by the Department The amendment will allow a fee to be charged for of Foreign Affairs and Trade. these functions when performed by authorised employees. I commend the bill to the Senate. The amendment is expected to result in improved TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL and more flexible delivery of consular functions (No. 4) 1997 overseas which should reduce the cost to the Thin capitalisation Government of providing these services. The amendments will improve the effectiveness of The amendment is consistent with Recommendation the thin capitalisation rules in order to ensure that 5 of the June 1997 Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence an appropriate amount of profit is derived in and Trade References Committee Report on Australia in respect of foreign controlled Australian Consular Services, Helping Australians Abroad: A enterprises. The thin capitalisation foreign debt to Review of the Australian Government’s Consular foreign equity gearing ratio will be reduced from Services: "that the Department of Foreign Affairs 3:1 to 2:1 for taxpayers who are not financial and Trade examine options to enable locally institutions. The gearing ratio for financial institu- engaged staff in Australian posts overseas to tions will remain unchanged at 6:1. undertake notarial acts". To complement the new gearing ratio, the defini- The Government plans to provide its formal tion of foreign debt for companies that are not response to the Senate Report in the near future. financial institutions will be extended to borrowings Indeed, the Government gave a commitment at the from overseas lenders for which a guarantee has last election to improving Australia’s consular been provided by a foreign controller or their non- services in general. The Minister for Foreign resident associates. This extension of foreign debt Affairs has taken a personal interest in many will not apply where a resident company can consular cases. establish to the satisfaction of the Commissioner of Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7377

Taxation that the loan could have been obtained proposed amendments will ensure that where a tax without the guarantee or security. exempt entity becomes taxable: The definition of foreign equity for fixed trusts will . the entity is allowed a deduction for any be calculated on the basis of their foreign surplus in its defined benefit superannuation controllers’ fixed interests in the capital and net scheme; income of the trust. Discretionary trusts will be denied an income tax deduction for interest paid to . the entity is allowed a deduction for contribu- foreign controllers or their non-resident associates. tions made in arrears after the transition time For partnerships the foreign equity will be based on where the defined benefit superannuation the interest that the foreign partners have in the scheme was in surplus at the transition time; capital and income of the partnership. and The bill also contains measures to counter avoid- . the doubtful debt provision for debts existing ance arrangements. Asset revaluations for partner- immediately before the transition time (for ships and trusts will be limited to market value which no deduction is allowable) is reduced changes. The provisions dealing with back to back where such a debt is sold at or after the arrangements will be repealed as it is considered transition time. that the general anti-avoidance provisions of the Measures to address tax avoidance through tax income tax law will be more effective in countering exempt entities distributing funds offshore such arrangements. The definition of a foreign investor will now include foreign partners, benefi- As part of the 1996-97 budget, the Treasurer ciaries and trustees of Australian partnerships and announced that the Government intended to intro- trusts, so that the foreign partners, beneficiaries and duce legislation to counter tax avoidance through trustees will be subject to the thin capitalisation the use of tax-exempt bodies distributing funds debt to equity ratio requirement, as well as the offshore. underlying Australian partnership or trust. As part of this Government’s commitment to Finance shares undertake consultation before introducing legisla- tion into Parliament an exposure draft of this The bill will amend the income tax law to address legislation together with explanatory notes were tax avoidance arrangements involving Eligible released on 20 February 1997. Finance Shares and Widely Distributed Finance Shares. In February the Government announced At the outset it should be emphasised that under measures denying non-portfolio dividend status and both the exposure draft and the legislation now eligibility for an underlying foreign tax credit on before the Parliament, any distribution of funds dividends paid on Eligible Finance Shares and received from donations, gifts, offerings, "plate Widely Distributed Finance Shares. These provi- money" and the like will not affect an organisat- sions give effect to that announcement. ion’s tax exempt status. Group certificates for employees ceasing employ- Although the charitable trust provisions are of an ment anti-avoidance nature the Government has, where possible, adopted a number of suggestions made by The Prime Minister, in his statement dated 24 interested parties to ensure as far as possible that March 1997 and contained in the report ‘More bona fide organisations will not lose their tax Time for Business’, announced a proposal designed exemption. to reduce employer’s compliance costs by removing the unnecessary requirement on employers to issue With respect to other tax exempt organisations group certificates within 7 days for terminating covered by provisions in the bill, the Government employees. has also amended the wording of the proposed legislation to make it perfectly clear that organisa- The bill amends the law relating to group certifi- tions based in Australia will not be affected by cates to generally allow employers to issue group these measures as long as they incur their expendi- certificates by 14 July after the end of the relevant ture and pursue their objects principally in Austral- year of income unless an employee who leaves ia. This amendment specifically addresses the employment during the year makes a written concerns of a large number of representations request for their group certificate at an earlier date. received by the Government on the draft legisla- Employers making an eligible termination payment tion, including from many religious, missionary and will be required to issue a group certificate within sporting organisations. 14 days of making a payment rather than 7 days as is presently required. Consistent with the announcement by the previous Government, the charitable trust measures will take Tax exempt entities that become taxable effect after the commencement of charitable trusts’ The bill also proposes amendments to overcome 1996-97 year of income. The measures affecting deficiencies identified in the existing law. The other exempt organisations will apply from the 7378 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

1996-97 Budget announcement as previously ABORIGINAL LAND RIGHTS (NORTHERN announced. TERRITORY) AMENDMENT BILL 1997 Quasi-ownership of fixtures/leases of luxury cars The bill seeks to make three amendments to the There are two measures in the bill which relate to Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act the Tax Law Improvement Project. The first 1976. measure ensures that luxury car leasing rules in the The first amendment would ensure the effectiveness Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 continue to have of subsection 50(2D) of the act which prevents land application to the 1997-98 and later income years. claims over stock routes and stock reserves. Madam The second incorporates into the rewritten 1997 President, the background to this matter is that the Assessment Act rules which treat a lessor of previous Government entered into a Memorandum depreciable plant under a chattel lease as the owner of Agreement in 1989 with the Northern Territory for taxation depreciation purposes where the plant concerning the granting of community living areas has become a fixture on another person’s land. to Aboriginal people in pastoral districts in the Electronic lodgment and electronic funds trans- Northern Territory. As part of the agreement, the fers Commonwealth undertook to proclaim a 1987 amendment to the Aboriginal Land Rights (North- The bill will amend the income tax law and fringe ern Territory) Act 1976 preventing the making of benefits tax law to provide for electronic lodgment land claims over stock routes and reserves. This of returns, applications for amendment and other amendment was made because it was never intend- documents provided to the Commissioner. These ed that stock routes and reserves should be avail- amendments give legislative effect to what is a able for claim. current administrative practice for taxpayers who The amendment was proclaimed in 1990, however, lodge through tax agents. The amendments will it appears that it may be technically deficient. The also enable other taxpayers to lodge these docu- effect of the 1990 amendment as drafted is that ments by electronic transmission to the Commis- while the claims can not be heard by the Aboriginal sioner. Land Commissioner, they remain registered. This Amendments will be made to allow the Commis- means that there is some doubt about whether the sioner to pay refunds by electronic funds transfer Northern Territory Government can deal with the to any account nominated by the taxpayer. The land. account may be an account of another person. In 1995 the Commonwealth and the Northern Rate of tax for friendly societies Territory governments reached an arrangement that an effective amendment be made in exchange for In the 1997-98 Budget the Government announced the Northern Territory accepting Commonwealth that, in keeping with the competition objectives of proposals for amendments to the Northern the Financial System Inquiry that reported in March Territory’s Pastoral Land Act 1992. The aim of 1997, it would recommence the review of the tax- those amendments is to expedite the granting of ation treatment of life insurance that was initiated community living areas to Aboriginal people, in the 1995-96 Budget, but not completed by the particularly those being dealt with by the Com- former Government prior to the election. munity Living Areas Tribunal. To ensure that the present taxation treatment of This amendment, once agreed to by Parliament, friendly societies is undisturbed for the duration of will conclusively eliminate stock route and stock the review, the rate of tax imposed on the life reserve claims by removing any doubt about the insurance business of friendly societies will be effectiveness of subsection 50(2D) of the Aborigi- retained at 33 per cent for the 1997-98 and 1998-99 nal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976. income years. Similarly, the rebate available to policyholders who receive assessable bonuses on The second amendment would apply where under life insurance policies issued by friendly societies section 50(1)(a)(ii), the Aboriginal Land Commis- will be retained at 33 per cent for the 1997-98, sioner reports that he/she is unable to make a 1998-99 and 1999-2000 income years. The trustee finding that there are traditional Aboriginal owners rate will be increased to 39 per cent from 1999- of land under claim. While such a claim is unable 2000 and the rebate rate will be increased to 39 per to proceed further, it is not finally disposed of. cent from 2000-01 unless other relevant amend- Consequently, such claims remain registered and ments to the taxation treatment of friendly societies there is some doubt about whether the Northern are made prior to that time. Territory Government can deal with the land. The amendment would finally dispose of such claims. Full details of the measures in the bill are con- tained in the explanatory memorandum circulated The third amendment would remove any doubt to honourable senators. about the effect of the sunset clause, subsection 50(2A). The sunset clause prevents the Aboriginal I commend the bill to the Senate. Land Commissioner from hearing and reporting to Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7379 the Minister on claims lodged after 5 June 1997. Today I am pleased to be introducing the Sydney However, it does not prevent claims being lodged Airport Demand Management Bill which represents and remaining registered. As is the case in relation a legislated a cap on aircraft movements. Its to stock routes claims, there would be some doubt introduction follows 18 months of effort necessary about whether the Northern Territory Government to ensure a cooperative scheme is ready to be could deal with land under claim. The amendment formally implemented following the passage of this would remove this doubt. legislation. The amendments contained in this bill will com- The timing for formally legislating a maximum mence on Proclamation, with a 12 month limit on aircraft movement cap at KSA is right, as the the time within which the Proclamation is to be number of movements at KSA in the peak morning made. The intended proclamation period has been hours is rapidly approaching the 80 movement provided so that, in accordance with the 1995 limit. agreement with the Northern Territory, the stock Unlike Mr Albanese’s earlier Private Members Bill route amendment can commence at the same time we have been concerned when we legislated to put as the Northern Territory’s amendments to its the cap in place to also deliver an effective tool to Pastoral Land Act 1992. administer it. We have achieved this with the There are no financial implications arising from development of a slot allocation system. this bill. The slots system which has been developed, in Madam President, I commend the amended bill to cooperation with industry, will ensure that we have the Senate. a workable and effective means for administering the cap. Debate (on motion by Senator Denman) The slots system will not only manage the cap in adjourned. a non-discriminatory way, it will help alleviate Ordered that these bills be listed on the delays through congestion at KSA. This will be Notice Paper as separate orders of the day. beneficial for all users of the airport—the airlines, the airport owner and most importantly the travel- SYDNEY AIRPORT DEMAND ling public. MANAGEMENT BILL 1997 By limiting the number of scheduled movements in any five minute period, the slots system will force First Reading the airlines to move away from their practice of cluster scheduling—where a group of flights, Bill received from the House of Representa- potentially well beyond the airports capacity, are tives. scheduled with the same arrival or departure time. Motion (by Senator Parer) agreed to: The bill requires movements to be spread more evenly across the hour. That this bill may proceed without formalities We have also incorporated a compliance regime and be now read a first time. into the slot system which, in tandem with the Bill read a first time. spreading of scheduling as cluster scheduling is dismantled, will also promote reduced delays at the Second Reading airport. Under the compliance system airlines will be liable to fines and other penalties for poor on- Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister time performance. This is a crucial element of the for Resources and Energy) (5.14 p.m.)—I slots system which will provide airlines with an move: additional incentive to perform on-time. Because That this bill be now read a second time. off-slot movements may involve fines unless an acceptable reason exists, the system will also bring I seek leave to have the second reading transparency and accountability to a process of speech incorporated in Hansard explaining why delays occur into and out of KSA. Leave granted. We intend to trial the off-slot provisions of the proposed slot management regime for six months. The speech read as follows— This will enable the scheme to bed down and for The purpose of this bill is to give effect to the industry to adjust to the new arrangements before government’s commitment to cap aircraft move- fines are imposed. ments at Kingsford Smith Airport, KSA, at 80 Another objective we have met in developing the movements per hour through the implementation of slots system is to guarantee residents of regional a slot system. This commitment was first made in New South Wales continued access to KSA. The our election policy statement on aviation in the system we are establishing will safeguard the 1996 election campaign. current levels of access that regional NSW have to 7380 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

KSA, reflecting the Commonwealth government’s Unauthorised movements will be subject to penal- commitment to country residents. This will be ties in the form of an infringement notice or civil achieved by setting aside dedicated regional slots prosecution. A range of civil penalties have been based on existing service levels, which cannot be specified in relation to breaches of the slot alloca- sold or swapped to interstate or international tion system. services. The most serious of these breaches relates to no- Consistent with a deregulated aviation industry the slot movements, where an aircraft lands or takes off slots system also provides for any potential new without having permission to do so. This is a entrants to have equal access with their established fundamental breach of the slot system which competitors to slots at Australia’s primary domestic jeopardises the cap and disrupts other airports users airport. This is the most progressive level of access who have applied for a slot. A no-slot movement for new entrants at any slot-constrained airport in will be punishable by a maximum penalty of the world. And it is possible to do this principally $220,000 per infringement. because we are putting this cap in place now, The maximum penalty for an off-slot movement is before the limit is reached in any hour. However, $110,000 for a corporation, or $22,000 for an should the bill be delayed, allocation under the individual. It is proposed that the Compliance present ad hoc, first-come-first served process will Scheme will provide initially for relatively small continue. On current trends, the 80 cap will soon fines but persistent offenders will find an exponen- be exceeded if not clearly established through the tial increase in the level of fines for the second and bill. third offences—up to the maximum. We are convinced that the introduction of a slots It is worth noting that fines are not triggered unless system, will effectively administer the cap and will a flight is more than 15 minutes late, and off-slot overall help reduce congestion and delays at movements which are outside the control of the Sydney Airport. This will have a flow-on beneficial airline will not count. effect as so much domestic aviation traffic is Emergency and state aircraft will be exempt from affected by good performance at KSA. this part of the bill. In addition, the Slot Manager I turn now to the main provisions of the Sydney may grant, within approved guidelines, a dispensa- Airport Demand Management Bill. tion to certain aircraft. The guidelines will be a disallowable instrument as part of the Slot Manage- Maximum aircraft movement limit. ment Scheme and will therefore be subject to Part 2 of the bill establishes a cap of 80 movements further scrutiny by this parliament. per hour at KSA, and requires Airservices Australia Revenue received from penalties are to be used by to monitor compliance with the cap. Airservices industry to off-set the costs of administering the Australia is also required to report any breaches of Slot Management Scheme. This signifies that the the cap. These reports will be tabled in both government is not aiming at raising revenue under Houses of parliament. the Scheme. Rather, we are serious about improv- In allocating slots, hourly movements are to be ing poor performance and delays. measured every 15 minutes. As I noted earlier this The Slot Management Scheme will assist in alleviating the practice of cluster Part 4 of the bill establishes the broad slot alloca- scheduling. tion framework. It does not contain the fine detail Under clauses 7 and 8 it will be possible to lower covering the day to day operation of the slots the maximum number of hourly movements at KSA system. An outline of the detail of the Scheme to after consultation with interested parties. However, be authorised under the bill is contained in the any change to the cap must be made in the form of Regulatory Impact Statement. A detailed draft a disallowable instrument which must go before the Scheme will be the subject of further development parliament for the full disallowance period before by an appointed Slot Manager. The Scheme will be it would come into effect. The capacity to lower a disallowable instrument when finalised. the maximum number of hourly movements is Clause 46 of the bill provides a ministerial discre- essentially a reserve provision. The cap of 80 tion to vary, suspend or cancel slots. This will be remains our policy. important for short term adjustments to the slots Penalties for unauthorised aircraft movements system to meet the operational requirements of special events, such as the 2000 Olympics. Any Part 3 of the bill establishes a system of penalties directions under this clause will be required to be for unauthorised aircraft movements. This will tabled in parliament. protect the integrity of the cap and establish clear guides for all users of KSA as to the range of The Compliance Scheme sanctions which may levied if an infringement Part 5 of the bill establishes the broad compliance occurs. framework. It provides for a Compliance Commit- Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7381 tee to develop and oversight enforcement provisions FUEL MISUSE (PENALTY in relation to the slot allocation system at KSA. SURCHARGE) BILL 1997 The Compliance Scheme will be a disallowable instrument. FUEL SALE (PENALTY SURCHARGE) The Slot Manager BILL 1997 Part 6 of the bill establishes that a Slot Manager, which will be a separate company, will be appoint- FUEL BLENDING (PENALTY ed to put forward a Slot Management Scheme and SURCHARGE) BILL 1997 future amendments, and administer slots at KSA. It is envisaged that the company appointed will be FUEL (PENALTY SURCHARGES) one formed by Sydney Airport and Australian ADMINISTRATION BILL 1997 airlines/operators using the airport. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE The Compliance Committee LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL Part 7 of the bill provides for the appointment of (No. 2) 1997 a Compliance Committee for KSA, with responsi- bility for developing, administering and amending CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT the Compliance Scheme. I will appoint the Com- BILL (No. 4) 1997 mittee. Miscellaneous EXCISE TARIFF AMENDMENT BILL Part 8 of the bill allows the making of regulations (No. 4) 1997 necessary to address the issue of slot management at KSA. First Reading The bill allows approval of amendments to the Slot Bills received from the House of Represen- Management Scheme and the Compliance Scheme tatives. to be delegated to the Secretary of the Department Motion (by Senator Parer) agreed to: of Transport and Regional Development, or to any person holding or performing the duties of a Senior That these bills may proceed without formalities, Executive Service office. may be taken together and be now read a first time. Conclusion Bills read a first time. The bill is a strong and reliable framework against Second Reading which Sydney Airport and the airlines using it will have the opportunity to build a mature, cooperative Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister arrangement for better on-time performance and for Resources and Energy) (5.16 p.m.)—I effective planning, up to the cap of 80 movements table revised explanatory memorandum an hour. relating to the Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates The full details of the Scheme and amendments to Amendments) Bill, the Customs Tariff (Fuel it will be tabled in parliament as a disallowable Rates Amendments) Bill 1997 and the Cus- instrument. toms and Excise Legislation Amendment Bill A great deal of work has already gone into devel- (No. 2) and move: oping the Slot Management Scheme and it will be available for tabling later this year. That these bills be now read a second time. There is no excuse for further delay. The necessary I seek leave to have the second reading advance work is now complete; and the 80 cap speeches incorporated in Hansard. must be set in concrete now, before it is exceeded Leave granted. by growth in the morning peak hour. The speeches read as follows— Ordered that further consideration of the second reading of this bill be adjourned until EXCISE TARIFF (FUEL RATES the first day of sitting in the Autumn sittings AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 1998, in accordance with standing order 111. This bill is the first of seven in the legislation package designed to give effect to the government’s EXCISE TARIFF (FUEL RATES announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 be cracking down on fuel substitution. It has been a longstanding and well accepted policy CUSTOMS TARIFF (FUEL RATES of successive governments that where excise is AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 imposed on petroleum products, differential rates 7382 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 of duty are applied on the basis of the intended This first bill in the package, the Excise Tariff end-use of the product. The highest rate of customs Amendment Bill, restructures the excise tariff and and excise duty is imposed on fuels such as defines those concessional products which must gasoline and automotive diesel oil for onroad have the prescribed marker added to them prior to transport use. For example, unleaded gasoline and the entry into home consumption. In the case of automotive diesel oil are subject to duty at the products produced in the refineries operated by the current rate of 34.697 cents per litre. Burner fuels major oil companies, this process will occur prior such as fuel oils, heating oils and kerosene, attract to the relevant product leaving the terminal gate a concessional excise duty rate which is currently and entering the distribution system. 7.200 cents per litre. Petroleum products for non- An Industry/Customs Technical Implementation fuel use purposes, such as solvents, do not attract Group with representation from the four major oil excise duty. companies and the Australian Institute of Petroleum The specifications for some concessional and zero- (AIP) will make recommendations to the govern- rated petroleum products, such as solvents, may be ment on practical implementation of the new very similar to those for onroad fuels, particularly requirements, including the identity of the preferred automotive diesel oil. Accordingly, substitution of marker or markers which will then be subject to lower duty products for onroad uses is attractive to regulation. The identity of the marker will be made unscrupulous operators. For example, if product known with sufficient lead time to allow ready declared as a solvent at the terminal gate of a compliance. The industry accepts that it will bear major oil company is subsequently blended with the cost of the marker and its administration to automotive diesel oil by a party in the retail concessional products. In this context, the Technical distribution system, the windfall gain from this Implementation Group will provide advice to the fraud is 34.697 cents per litre. government on a regime which will be simple to Excise revenue from petroleum products is not administer and minimise compliance costs on all insignificant in terms of its contribution to revenue parties involved in fuel manufacture and distribu- and it is important that it be protected. The 1997-98 tion. budget estimate for collection of excise on petro- Certain products which are excisable at rates below leum products is $10 840 m, which includes a the rate for onroad fuels will not be required to be small amount of excise on crude oil. This is marked. These include aviation turbine fuel and expected to form about 8.1 per cent of total aviation gasoline and all concessional fuels in Commonwealth revenue in this financial year. The packages not exceeding 210 litres, that is, drum and 1997-98 budget estimated that the measures under- retail stock. The government will closely monitor pinned by this legislative package will lead to the consumption of fuels with an exemption from increased revenue of $25 m in a full year. the marking requirement to verify that abuse does As well as a fraud on the government and the not occur. honest taxpayer, these practices designed to avoid The Customs Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill paying the correct excise are also a fraud on in the legislative package imposes customs duty on consumers and on those honest participants who imported product according to the intended end-use form the vast majority of the petroleum products at the time the product is entered into home con- distribution and retail system who wish to compete sumption (in a parallel manner to excise). Three on level terms. In many cases, use of these fuels further bills impose a penalty surcharge on subse- can greatly harm engine performance and expose quent users who misuse, blend or sell the products consumers to great danger as the blends containing other than in accordance with the originally intend- substituted fuel may have a much lower flashpoint ed end-use as indicated by the marker. The Admin- than proper diesel. istration bill provides for record-keeping obliga- The government considers these fraudulent and tions, audit and investigation powers for Customs potentially dangerous practices designed to avoid officers, and offences for non-compliance. excise revenue legislated by the parliament as As part of the implementation of the measures, simply not acceptable. Customs has engaged in extensive consultation with The government has decided the best way to parties with an interest. As well as the major oil minimise these practices is to require the introduc- companies and the AIP, other parties involved in tion of chemical tracers to concessional fuels before the consultation program include the Australian they enter home consumption. The tracer, described Petroleum Agents and Distributors Association as a marker in the legislation, will allow Customs (APADA), the Service Station Association (SSA), to monitor products in the market place to ensure the Australian Petroleum Production and Explor- inappropriate usage of concessional fuels does not ation Association (APPEA), the Road Transport occur. The presence of the marker will make illegal Forum (RTF), the National Farmers Federation substitution simple to detect, both by Customs and (NFF), state motoring organisations such as the by participants in the market who wish to do so. NRMA and RACV, numerous individual fuel Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7383 recycling companies and Offices of state Revenue The penalty surcharge is payable by the person and state consumer affairs bodies. owning the fuel immediately before its sale. While there has also been strong support in broad FUEL BLENDING (PENALTY SURCHARGE) terms for the initiative amongst those consulted, the BILL 1997 government recognises that there is significant detail in the legislative package. If substantiated This Bill is the fifth of seven in the legislation and genuine concerns about the operation of the package designed to give effect to the government’s measures are apparent, the government will take announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would these into account. be cracking down on fuel substitution. It provides for a penalty surcharge payable where In conclusion, I reiterate that the government is fuel that has been entered for home consumption introducing these measures to increase compliance on a concessional basis, and accordingly marked with long established excise taxation policy and to with a chemical tracer, is subsequently blended address loopholes in existing excise legislation with unmarked fuel. where it does not deliver this policy. They will be of benefit to government in terms of collecting the Unmarked fuel is fuel that has been entered for proper excise revenue legislated by the parliament, home consumption at a fully duty paid rate. to consumers in terms of safer petroleum products The penalty surcharge is payable by the owner of and to those honest participants who form the vast the fuel immediately after that blending. majority of the petroleum products distribution and retail system who wish to compete on level terms. FUEL (PENALTY SURCHARGES) ADMINISTRATION BILL 1997 CUSTOMS TARIFF (FUEL RATES AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 This bill is the sixth of seven in the legislation package designed to give effect to the government’s This bill is the second of seven in the legislation announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would package designed to give effect to the government’s be cracking down on fuel substitution. announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would It sets out the administration provisions for the 3 be cracking down on fuel substitution. penalty surcharge bills in the legislation package. It parallels for customs duty those changes to The first set of administration provisions relate to excise duty implemented by the provisions of the the times at which the penalty surcharges will Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill 1997. become payable. The penalty surcharges are FUEL MISUSE (PENALTY SURCHARGE) payable before the use, sale or blending takes place. BILL 1997 It is highly unlikely that those who are carrying out these practices designed to defraud the revenue will This bill is the third of seven in the legislation volunteer to pay such surcharges and accordingly package designed to give effect to the government’s an offence will be committed. announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would In such cases, the severe penalties are designed to be cracking down on fuel substitution. act as a deterrent to these practices, particularly It provides for a penalty surcharge payable where where they are carried out on a commercial scale. fuel that has been entered for home consumption The penalties are high and reflect the serious nature on a concessional basis, and accordingly marked of the frauds currently being perpetrated. It will be with a chemical tracer, is subsequently used in an relatively easy for bona fide operators, who form internal combustion engine. the vast majority of participants in the industry, not to become involved. They will achieve that by not The penalty surcharge is payable by the owner of buying fuel without due attention to the required the fuel at the time of its use and is payable before documentation and the commercial context in the fuel is used. which the fuel is offered. In addition, a key factor FUEL SALE (PENALTY SURCHARGE) in the selection of the marker (or markers) will be BILL 1997 that the presence of the marker can be tested by those who wish to do so with a test that is safe, This bill is the fourth of seven in the legislation cheap and easy to conduct. There will be an package designed to give effect to the government’s intensive publicity campaign directed at industry announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would participants before the legislation commences. be cracking down on fuel substitution. The second set of administration provisions relate It provides for a penalty surcharge payable where to record creation and record keeping obligations fuel that has been entered for home consumption which apply to all persons dealing in petroleum on a concessional basis, and accordingly marked products. These requirements will apply to persons with a chemical tracer, is subsequently sold for use who enter products for home consumption as well in an internal combustion engine. as to subsequent dealers in such products after they 7384 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 have entered into home consumption. There should in a manner which does not correspond to its be no situation, whether it be in a road tanker or nature, in the context of the requirement of whether other fuel transport vehicle of any type, a transport it is marked or unmarked fuel. Identical offences vehicle with a fuel capacity above the threshold will apply to the entry for home consumption under limit, a depot, a service station or other fuel both the Customs Act and the Excise Act. distribution or storage place, where fuel is not CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT BILL covered by some form of readily accessible and accurate documentary record. Customs has con- (No. 4) 1997 sulted with industry representative bodies in the The Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) petroleum product manufacturing, distribution and amends Schedule 3 to the Customs Tariff Act 1995 retail sector. The record keeping requirements set to maintain the increases in the rates of customs out in the bill, while codified into certain classes duty on tobacco, certain tobacco products and of records, are no more in quantity than is currently certain petroleum products imposed by the Customs required by normal business practice. It should be Tariff Amendment Act (No.3) 1997, otherwise noted also that volumes of fuel below certain levels known as the Government’s safety net initiative. will be exempted from the recordkeeping require- The safety net initiative was introduced to address ments and accordingly private motorists and other the 5 August 1997 decision of the High Court in low volume users of fuel will not be affected in the cases of Ngo Ngo Ha V State of New South any way by these requirements. Wales and Walter Hammond and Associates P/L v Further administration provisions set out the State of New South Wales. The decision invalidated notification requirements in relation to the sale or the New South Wales tobacco business franchise disposal of marked fuel. fees and cast considerable doubt upon the consti- This bill also sets out the audit powers of Customs tutional validity of all other state and territory officers and officers of other agencies authorised by business franchise fees on tobacco, alcohol and the Chief Executive Officer of Customs to ensure some petroleum products. Due to the serious compliance with the requirements in this act and to budgetary implications this decision had on states obtain evidential material concerning any breaches and territories, the Commonwealth agreed to a of the provisions of this act, including the authority safety net to protect State and Territory revenues. to obtain monitoring and search warrants. The The Customs Tariff Amendment Act (No.3) 1997 powers will cover a range of activities including introduced this safety net by increasing the equiva- fuel sampling, auditing of documents and access to lent customs duties in the Customs Tariff Act 1995 various premises including road tankers and fuel (at the same time, complementary amendments transport vehicles, transport vehicles with a fuel were made to The Excise Tariff Act 1921). While capacity above the threshold limit and depots, this timely measure successfully maintained the service stations and fuel distribution or storage budgetary equilibrium which existed prior to the places. Unfortunately, the experience to date shows High Court decision, it was not possible to take that once fuel has passed out of Customs’ control account of other amendments to those rates of duty into home consumption, the ability of Customs which were introduced into the Parliament during under existing legislation to obtain sufficient the Winter sittings, namely the Government’s Fuel evidence to substantiate evasion of the revenue Substitution Package. Specifically, The Customs through fuel substitution practices is limited. Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendment) Bill 1997 will, It should be noted that the bill allows information when enacted, revise many of the descriptions of or things, such as fuel samples, to be made avail- fuel presently contained in the act to prominently able to other agencies, whether Commonwealth or relate those descriptions to fuel containing a state, with relevant interests. Among other things, chemical marker. If enacted in its present form, (ie this power recognises that fuel substitution prac- without the further amendments contained in The tices are designed to avoid state and territory Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No.4) 1997) it petroleum franchise fee revenue, as well as excise. would displace the recently introduced safety net provisions, undoing its purpose. There are also strong provisions against people who may attempt to remove or neutralise markers. The Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No.4) 1997 will amend the revised rates contained in the the CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION Customs Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendment) Bill 1997, AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) 1997 to incorporate the safety net into the new chemical- This bill is the final of seven in the legislation marker-oriented descriptions immediately after that package designed to give effect to the government’s legislation is enacted. announcement in the 1997-98 budget that it would Financial impact statement be cracking down on fuel substitution. These amendments merely maintain the existing This bill introduces offences and appropriate rates of duty imposed as a safety net measure by penalties that will apply to a person who enters fuel the Customs Tariff Amendment Act (No.3) 1997. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7385

Therefore, the financial impact on the Common- Debate (on motion by Senator Conroy) wealth Budget is neutral. adjourned. EXCISE TARIFF AMENDMENT BILL CUSTOMS LEGISLATION (ANTI- (No. 4) 1997 DUMPING) AMENDMENT BILL 1997 The Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 4) amends the Schedule to the Excise Tariff Act 1921 to CUSTOMS TARIFF (ANTI-DUMPING) maintain the increases in the rates of excise duty on AMENDMENT BILL 1997 tobacco, certain tobacco products and certain petro- leum products imposed by the ExciseTariff Amend- Report of Economics Legislation ment Act (No.3) 1997, otherwise known as the Committee Government’s safety net initiative. Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (5.17 The safety net initiative was introduced to address p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Ferguson, I the 5 August 1997 decision of the High Court in the cases of Ngo Ngo Ha v State of New South present the report of the Economics Legis- Wales and Walter Hammond and Associates P/L v lation Committee on provisions of the Cus- State of New South Wales. The decision invalidated toms Legislation (Anti-Dumping) Amendment the New South Wales tobacco business franchise Bill 1997 and the Customs Tariff (Anti- fees and cast considerable doubt upon the consti- Dumping) Amendment Bill 1997, together tutional validity of all other state and territory with submissions and transcript of evidence. business franchise fees on tobacco, alcohol and some petroleum products. Due to the serious Ordered that the report be printed. budgetary implications this decision had on states and territories, the Commonwealth agreed to a CHARTER OF BUDGET HONESTY safety net to protect State and Territory revenues. BILL 1996 The Excise Tariff Amendment Act (No.3) 1997 In Committee introduced this safety net by increasing the equiva- lent excise duties in the Excise Tariff Act 1921 (at Consideration resumed. the same time, complementary amendments were The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- made to The Customs Tariff Act 1995). While this tor Murphy)—The committee is considering timely measure successfully maintained the budget- the Charter of Budget Honesty Bill 1996 and ary equilibrium which existed prior to the High Court decision, it was not possible to take account amendment No. 2 moved by Senator Murray of other amendments to those rates of duty which for the Australian Democrats on sheet 664 were introduced into the Parliament during the revised. The question is that the amendment Winter sittings, namely the Government’s Fuel be agreed to. Substitution package. Specifically, The Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendment) Bill 1997 will, Question put: when enacted, revise many of the descriptions of That the amendment (Senator Murray’s)be fuel presently contained in the act to prominently agreed to. relate those descriptions to fuel containing a chemical marker. If enacted in its present form, (ie without the further amendments contained in The The committee divided. [5.23 p.m.] Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No.4) 1997) it would displace the recently introduced safety net (The Temporary Chairman—Senator S.M. provisions, undoing its purpose. Murphy) The Excise Tariff Amendment Bill (No.4) 1997 Ayes ...... 27 will amend the revised rates contained in the the Noes ...... 27 Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendment) Bill 1997, —— to incorporate the safety net into the new chemical- Majority ...... 0 marker-oriented descriptions immediately after that —— legislation is enacted. AYES Financial impact statement Allison, L. Bishop, M. Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. These amendments merely maintain the existing Browne, R. J. Campbell, G. rates of duty imposed as a safety net measure by Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. the Excise Tariff Amendment Act (No.3) 1997. Conroy, S. * Cook, P. F. S. Therefore, the financial impact on the Common- Cooney, B. Denman, K. J. wealth Budget is neutral. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. 7386 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

AYES better if he were to appear in the chamber and Hogg, J. Kernot, C. have his name listed when his vote would be Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. determinative, rather than make such import- Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. Murray, A. ant decisions for this chamber from his office. Neal, B. J. Schacht, C. C. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (5.27 Woodley, J. p.m.)—It is fortuitous that I have come into NOES the chamber. I am glad that Senator Brown Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. has made this point because the situation is Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. this: I knew precisely what the motion was Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. before the chair. I had been studying it, I had Crane, W. Ellison, C. heard the arguments put for and against, and Ferguson, A. B. Gibson, B. F. I had seen it in full colour on my screen. Heffernan, W. Herron, J. Indeed, very often it is easier to follow a Hill, R. M. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. debate on the screen in the silence of your Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. office where you are not distracted by inter- McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. jections and all the rest of the things like that. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. Also, the focus is right on the senator who is Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. speaking and you can give your undivided— Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. in so far as it is undivided—attention to what Watson, J. O. W. is being said. PAIRS Carr, K. Tierney, J. But is it the case with every other senator Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. that they knew what the debate was all about? Evans, C. V. Ferris, J. Faulkner, J. P. Vanstone, A. E. That vote, might I say, was negatived on 27 Mackay, S. Macdonald, I. votes to 27. Did Senator Brown say, ‘Where O’Brien, K. W. K. Minchin, N. H. are the other 22 senators who were not here Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. in the chamber?’ No. Twenty-two senators Ray, R. F. Alston, R. K. R. were missing from that vote. I happened to be Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. one of them. I also happened to be aware of Sherry, N. Troeth, J. what the debate was about, and I also hap- * denotes teller pened to know what the result would be if Question so resolved in the negative. there were a division. I knew jolly well that Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.26 p.m.)— the result would be a negative result, and that I want to comment on the fact that in that is also my point: knowing that, why should I vote yet again Senator Harradine abstained come down to the chamber when there is a from determining the matter, and I intend to huge amount of work to do, such as commit- continue to refer to this because it is tanta- tee work and the like; constituent work; and mount to determination of the Senate’s affairs studying, and getting advice on, what is in absentia. We are in the situation where the coming before the chamber? senator comes in to make a deliberative vote if he wants to vote something down but stays As honourable senators know, in the unfor- out, knowing that it will go down, if the tunate situation that one finds oneself, I have government is going to get a tied vote. This had to sit for hour on hour in this seat when is the second or third time that it has hap- other senators are not around the place and pened today, and I just think that it is a bad are doing other work—no doubt many of practice. them are watching the debate on the screen. But let me make it clear to Senator Brown There are odd occasions when one has no that I know precisely what effect my absence option but to abstain because one cannot in certain cases here has. Do you want me to make a deliberated decision, but I cannot press a button or something? Why should I believe that this has suddenly overtaken walk down here on all of those different Senator Harradine’s consideration. It would be occasions? Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7387

Let me remind you of last Wednesday when Senator BROWN—The point is that it Senator Murray and a senator on the Labor needs to be made clear that he voted against side—I am not sure who—were moving very it. That is not on the record as things stand. good and attractive amendments to the Legis- It has been put on the record now. lative Instruments Bill. As you would recall, Senator Harradine—I rise on a point of maybe a dozen of those votes came down to order. Is it in order for the honourable senator my vote. On that occasion I happened to be to reflect on a vote of this chamber which has in the chamber. I think that Senator Ferguson just been taken? was in the chair, as were others. They kept looking at me to see whether I would say No The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- or Yes. It was ludicrous. tor Murphy)—Senator Harradine, I am advised that it is not in order to reflect on a I am also perfectly well aware of what the vote of this chamber. But there is the question result would be in a tied vote when you have of whether Senator Brown is making a reflec- a situation where the House of Representa- tion on a vote of the Senate. That is for tives sends back a bill indicating that it Senator Brown to say. disagrees with our amendment. I am perfectly well aware that the government would nor- Senator BROWN—Of course I am not. I mally move that the Senate does not insist accept the vote of the Senate as being the upon its amendments. That, in a tied vote outcome of the collective wisdom of the situation, is negatived. But the ruling over the Senate. The point I am making, though, is years has been that, in fact, the Senate’s that some of the wisdom that contributed to amendments are not and cannot be insisted that vote going against the interests of minor upon because they have lost the majority parties was absent and is not recorded in the which would be normally required in the Hansard. I will continue to make that point. committee stage ab initio. I think that where a senator in this place has a pivotal role and a pivotal and deciding vote I am fully aware of that. If people think I he should be recorded in the Hansard as am not aware of the consequences of my having made that vote. Sometimes there are voting or not voting I would like them to millions of dollars dependent on such votes— reconsider that. we have seen that already today. Sometimes Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.33 p.m.)— the interests of parties and people are affect- I made no reference to debates. There are ed. I will continue to ensure that, where a often lots of members absent during debates, senator has a deliberative vote in this place as there are here. That is not the point I was and it is not recorded in Hansard, the public making. The point I make is that, when a vote has the advantage of seeing that senator’s is effective in this place, unless somebody has vote recorded. made a deliberative decision to abstain, then Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant how that person voted should be recorded. Treasurer) (5.36 p.m.)—I wish to respond That should go into the Hansard. because I have listened to some hypocrisy in Senator Bob Collins—You have lost me. my time and I have to say— Senator BROWN—It is a difficult argu- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— ment, Senator Collins, but pay attention. The Senator Kemp— fact is that the last vote, for example, was tied Senator KEMP—I withdraw that; I do not and that means that the Democrats, the want to waste any time. I have seen some Greens and other parties are not going to be special pleading in my time but that takes the able to make use of the Treasury facility to cake. I wonder if, where circumstances arose have election policies assessed. Had Senator that the non-appearance of a senator meant Harradine voted with those of us who believe that you, Senator Brown, were able to win that that facility should be available to the your position, we would have had this per- Democrats and Greens, it would be available. formance. The answer is that we would not. Senator Calvert—So what! That is the truth of it. Senator, in this cham- 7388 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 ber we win some and we lose some. It is that the public should not have the benefit of always good that, when you lose, you take it Democrat or Green policies being assessed by in good grace. You are guilty today of being Treasury. I find it very difficult to argue that a sore loser. That is not your typical standard the public should not have the benefit of and you should reflect on your statements Senator Harradine’s policies being assessed by today before you rise again to make such an Treasury. But, in voting against this, the attack. government is saying, ‘We don’t want to see The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The their policies assessed.’ question before the chair is that the bill stand It is a bit hard to fathom. The minister as printed. opposite will say that Treasury will have too Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.37 p.m.)— much work to do. The reality is that the I move: voters deserve to hear what all party policies (1) Schedule 1, clause 3, page 6 (after line 2), are evaluated as, whether they are being after the definition of Leader of the Opposi- properly put to the electorate by the Demo- tion, insert: crats, the Greens and the Labor and Liberal minor party leader means the representative parties as well as by the National Party. of any party which: Senator Kemp—You are not the spokes- (a) is registered under the Commonwealth man for the National Party, Senator. Electoral Act 1918; and (b) has, or has had, at least one representative Senator BROWN—I am speaking on their in the Parliament; behalf because none of them is here. As a boy and is the person nominated by the party to be from the country, I want to include them in the representative for the purposes of this Act. the assessment potential. I would like to see This amendment is a stand-alone amendment their policies also being assessed by Treasury similar to that which was put by Senator in the run-up to the next election. This Murray. But it is different in that it extends amendment is an important one. I hope that the ability of parties—not only the Labor and we can persuade Senator Harradine, as a Liberal parties and the Australian Democrats democrat, to come in here and vote for this but also the Greens and, indeed, Senator amendment in the interests of the electorate Harradine—to have their policies assessed by and, in particular, in the interests of smaller Treasury. Under this amendment, Senator entities in the democratic system—such as, Harradine will be able to put forward his the Democrats, the Greens and himself, policies for assessment—if he comes in when because he is registered as a political party. there is a vote on this matter and votes for it. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) So, for the interest of those who have been (5.41 p.m.)—I spoke at length on this matter following this matter in committee, I am earlier. I wish to record that the Australian essentially putting the embellishment on the Democrats will be supporting Senator Democrat amendment that we debated earlier Brown’s amendment. in the day. Senator COOK (Western Australia) (5.41 This legislation is allowing the government p.m.)—I too, like Senator Murray, have and opposition parties to put policies to spoken at length on this subject, but not in Treasury to have the fiscal impact of those any detail on this amendment. I want to make policies assessed so the public can get an a few remarks on it. Of course, the Labor independent arbitration as to whether the cost opposition supported the Australian Democrat or the benefits of those policies are in line amendment that was just before us a moment with what the parties say they are. ago and which was defeated on a tied vote. In This amendment means that the Democrats, the debate leading into the putting of that the Greens and other parties who have repre- motion to this chamber, I had indicated to the sentation in the parliament would also be able minor parties that we were not yet of a firm to put their policies before Treasury to have view as to what we would do with respect to them assessed. I find it very difficult to argue this amendment, but I did indicate that I was Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7389 disposed to support it for parties that had at by Senator Margetts before we broke for least one representative in the parliament. lunch where her party has a different struc- Senators will recall this is a new amend- ture. There is no such thing as a leader; there ment. The previous amendment meant that is only someone who is the first among any party registered under the Commonwealth equals, who is a representative. I note for the Electoral Act would be eligible for costing. I record the upraised thumb of approval indicat- indicated that the Labor Party was disposed ing yes. In that case, while I think it is an odd not to support that and would not support arrangement, I really do not have any objec- that. Now we have this further amendment tion to it. which reads: Senator Margetts—It’s not that odd. ...minor party leader means the representative Senator COOK—I think it is an odd of any party which: arrangement. If you choose an anarchy style (a) is registered under the Commonwealth of structure for your party, that is your choice. Electoral Act 1918; and I think it is odd. I think a party needs to have (b) has, or has had, at least one representative in a leader and a spokesperson and so on. But the Parliament; we are just wasting time here. If those words and is the person nominated by the party to be the ‘or has had’ are removed, the opposition will representative for the purposes of this Act. support the amendment. I am not disposed to support this amendment Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant in those terms. One part of this amendment Treasurer) (5.45 p.m.)—Everyone who has that I find difficult is the part which reads ‘or spoken in this particular debate has canvassed has had’. That is to say that, if a minor party their positions very extensively in relation to had a member in either chamber of the federal the earlier amendment. This, in effect, carries parliament at one time in its history, for ever an earlier amendment even further. That after, whether or not they ever succeeded in earlier amendment was defeated. It was being elected to the parliament again, they defeated on sound commonsense grounds. All could submit at each election their program the arguments which I put forward in relation for costing by the Commonwealth Treasury. to the earlier amendment are even more I do not wish to support that. emphasised in relation to this particular Senator Brown—I’ll drop that, if I get amendment. The government will not be leave. supporting the amendment. Senator COOK—If you drop that, that Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) leads me to the second part of this amend- (5.46 p.m.)—As an anarchist and in the sense ment that I have difficulty with. I note the of political anarchy in the true sense of the interjection that you intend to seek leave to word and proud of it, I would like to say that drop it. Therefore, there is no point in my I think Senator Cook, although he screwed up going into the further argument that I would his face as he said it, probably described it have put. The other part I have some diffi- quite well. It is a very positive aspect of the culty with is where it says: Greens (WA) in relation to non-hierarchical structures. Instead of having presidents, we . . . and is the person nominated by the party to be the representative for the purposes of this Act. have convenors, we try to vote by consensus and we try to devolve our decision making to I take this—and I would be grateful for some the local groups. explanation from the mover on this point— that— We do not see this as an odd way of doing things, but as the way of the future—the way Senator Kemp—And the minister. society can look as a model. It would be odd Senator COOK—I will certainly hear you, if I am talking about this as the way com- Minister, I am sure, and you will give us your munity could and should operate if we do not explanation too. But I am trying to come to as a political grouping act in that way our- terms with what the mover means by this selves. I see it as very positive. I see it as a provision. I take this to be the reference made celebration of diversity and community 7390 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 participation, which is one of the four pillars Question put: of Green politics—participatory democracy. That the amendment (Senator Brown’s), as We do not see it as odd at all; we see it as amended, be agreed to. the normal way. I am very pleased to support this amendment. I would like to hope that one of the reasons The committee divided. [5.54 p.m.] Senator Harradine was not part of the first (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) vote is that he might have thought this was a Ayes ...... 27 better one and may join us to vote for this Noes ...... 27 motion because I believe it is an improvement —— on the first amendment. Majority ...... 0 —— Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.47 p.m.)— AYES I wish to make another brief contribution to Allison, L. Bolkus, N. this because the Greens do have differences Bourne, V. Brown, B. about this. Christine Milne is the leader of the Campbell, G. Collins, J. M. A. Greens in the Tasmanian parliament, where Collins, R. L. Conroy, S. * they hold the balance of power. She takes a Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. very formidable role representing the Greens Denman, K. J. Gibbs, B. on the floor of the parliament and in negotia- Hogg, J. Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. tions with the Premier and other people from Mackay, S. Margetts, D. day to day. McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. That being said, there is an administrative Murray, A. Neal, B. J. arrangement or a decision making process Ray, R. F. Schacht, C. C. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. within the parliament which says that if you Woodley, J. have more than five members, you are a party and you have to allocate a leader. While that NOES administrative arrangement has no sway in Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. this legislation, for smaller parties there is no Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. requirement or definition of a parliamentary Crane, W. Ellison, C. party or, indeed, the need for a leader. This Ferguson, A. B. Gibson, B. F. covers that. It covers smaller parties with the Heffernan, W. Herron, J. best possible wording. I seek leave to amend Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. my amendment by omitting ", or has had,". Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. Treasurer) (5.49 p.m.)—I want to make sure O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. before we vote that we know what we are all Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. voting on. I think Senator Brown indicated by Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. nodding to Senator Cook that part (a) of that Watson, J. O. W. motion would come out. Is that right? PAIRS The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- Bishop, M. Hill, R. M. tor Murphy)—No, Minister, I do not think Carr, K. Ferris, J. that is correct. I would think you would Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. probably want (a) left in there. Evans, C. V. Vanstone, A. E. Faulkner, J. P. Alston, R. K. R. Senator COOK (Western Australia) (5.49 Forshaw, M. G. Troeth, J. p.m.)—I did not have that view. Part (a) is O’Brien, K. W. K. Minchin, N. H. probably redundant. Actually, no it is not. Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. You would still have to be a registered party. Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. You could be an Independent and not a Sherry, N. Tierney, J. registered party, so it is not redundant. * denotes teller Leave granted. Question so resolved in the negative. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7391

Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.57 p.m.)— ment to the electorate to improve fiscal I would like to record that Senator accountability while, at the same time, not Harradine’s absence ensured that that motion encroaching in any way on the ability and the was lost. constitutional right of the executive govern- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) ment to run the national economy. (5.57 p.m.)—I move: Minister, I do not expect you to support (1) Clause 3, page 2 (lines 3 and 4), omit sub- this—because that is not the way of things— clause (2), substitute: but I am hopeful that you might reconsider (2) Parts 7 and 8 of the Charter of Budget your position, since this is a narrower version. Honesty create rights and duties that are I challenge you to take up the opportunity to enforceable in judicial or other proceed- demonstrate that you intend your charter of ings. budget honesty to be enforceable. I hope that, The running sheet headed Revised 2 contains as a consequence, you will provide the elec- an Australian Democrats amendment to clause torate and us with some firm statement of 3 of the Charter of Budget Honesty Bill. I am your determination to be accountable in this returning to an area of discussion and argu- matter. Accordingly, I commend this amend- ment that we had earlier for the first amend- ment to the committee. ment we addressed today. I place this amend- Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) ment before the Senate as a fall-back and a (6.01 p.m.)—The original amendment to lesser position, which I hope this time will clause 3 binding the Commonwealth was a attract the support of both Senator Margetts problem for me because we were being asked and Senator Harradine and the renewed to accept a pig in a poke in terms of what the support of the Labor Party and Senator bill would look like in the end. I wonder Brown. This amendment focuses purely on whether we might hold over consideration of parts 7 and 8 of the Charter of Budget Hon- this amendment until we see exactly how the esty Bill. government and the opposition respond to the I want parts 7 and 8 of the bill to put back Democrats’ amendments 3 and 6. Not only legally enforceable rights into the bill. These would it be useful for me to know what the two parts focus only on pre-election reports bill looks like but I might also be able to then on the fiscal and economic outlook and on ask the committee whether we could reconsid- pre-election policy costings. The amendment er clause 3. That is what I should have done would make them enforceable. At the moment at the time. I am sorry that I did not do so but under the current legislation, the non- sometimes things happen very quickly. If publication of these reports and costings possible, I would like to consider the would not be subject to judicial enforcement Democrats’ amendment on sheet 690 after we or to similar enforcement. have dealt with their amendments 3 and 6. I Unlike the other parts to this bill, parts 7 move: and 8 are clearly separate from any executive That the amendment be postponed. power of the Commonwealth, which requires Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) it to follow whatever fiscal strategy it deems (6.03 p.m.)—Mr Chairman, I do not really necessary. This part of the bill refers only to mind where my amendment comes. If that is the fiscal reporting requirements relative to how Senator Margetts wishes to deal with it, pre-election matters. Parts 7 and 8 do not I am happy with that. I must say that I find impact on the discretion of the executive the reasoning difficult to follow, but I am sure government when it is in caretaker mode to she will explain a little later. run the national economy. As it stands, and as we said earlier, this bill Question resolved in the affirmative. is overly protective of the executive govern- Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) ment at the expense of the parliament and the (6.03 p.m.)—I have given my concerns about public. By accepting this amendment, the the first amendment. I would like to think that government will be reinforcing its commit- Treasury outlooks produced before an election 7392 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 would include aspects other than narrow fiscal For people’s welfare to be enhanced and for and economic considerations. their prosperity to increase, there has to be a Senator COOK (Western Australia) (6.04 focus on the achievement of full employment p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Sherry, I move: and on the economic wellbeing of Australians. The pursuit of better employment outcomes (1) Schedule 1, clause 5, Page 7 (after line 23), at should be the key priority of the government. the end of paragraph (b), add: Unfortunately, we know that this has not been (iii) to the achievement of full employ- the case. Or, if it has been, the government ment in Australia; and has been a woeful failure on this front. The (iv) to the overall economic prosperity record for the last 12 months is truly unac- and welfare of the people of Austral- ceptable. The Australian economy has actually ia; and lost around 60,000 full-time jobs in that This amendment seeks to add into the Charter period. That is, we have not even stayed still of Budget Honesty Bill 1996two important on the jobs front; Australia has actually gone qualifications to the list of qualifications set backwards. The government actually created out on page 7. Those qualifications are: an employment committee of cabinet to supposedly focus policy on employment. That (iii) to the achievement of full employment in Australia; and has to be marked down as a spectacular failure. (iv) to the overall economic prosperity and welfare of the people of Australia. These amendments seek to compel the government to focus on national welfare, as The amendment is fundamentally important in they obviously are not doing at the moment. terms of the objectives of government. The I regard it as unbelievable that the govern- opposition believes that fiscal policy should ment would not accept this amendment, be directed to worthwhile community goals. because to do so would indicate that they do It should not just be about a cold-blooded not support improved employment and they accountancy exercise. One could ask oneself: do not support an improvement in national why do governments set fiscal objectives? welfare outcomes. I commend the amendment. They should do so to ensure that their broader Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) objectives can be achieved. Amendment No. (6.07 p.m.)—One of the major methods by 1 proposes to add to the principles of sound which the current government has indicated fiscal management in clause 5. We consider that it is moving towards full employment—I that, at a minimum, these two further para- am not sure if full employment is actually a graphs should be added to these principles. goal of the government; perhaps they might Many people, when they listened to what I enlighten me—is the assumption that, if you read out earlier, will recognise these princi- deregulate the labour force, pull down wages ples as those that are contained within the and conditions far enough and make it easier Reserve Bank legislation, which must be to sack people, then in the end you will soak taken into account by the bank in the conduct up unemployment. I am just wondering of monetary policy in this country. I submit whether or not paragraphs (iii) and (iv) of the to the committee that they add a humanising amendment will be sufficient in relation to element to the principles of sound fiscal what the current government has been doing management rather than a narrowly focused for employment. If you just put ‘the achieve- fixation on the bottom line and accountancy ment of full employment in Australia’ and if standards as currently contained in the bill. It you are working with a government that is not merely appropriate that a statement of thinks that the achievement of full employ- principles of fiscal management simply ment is achieved by simply pulling down address the accounting criteria. Also, the wages and conditions, they might claim that application of fiscal management techniques they are doing that by continuing to put up has a very real impact on the lives and wel- new waves of industrial legislation which fare of people and this should be recognised actually, in my opinion, have the opposite in the bill. effect. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7393

I wonder whether there might be the ability My view is that I would prefer that my to include ‘the maintenance and improvement amendment stands and is put and then, if it is of the real value of wages and conditions and carried, that the Greens’ amendment is then the welfare of workers’ so that it is seen as a put and voted on. I am happy to indicate to dual goal. If it means job sharing within the the chamber that I would vote for both. But community, if it means creative approaches in I do think that there are some complications the community, if it means making sure that I would now like to just address for a people still have rights, then that is perhaps minute with the Greens. an important issue. The Greens’ amendment deletes paragraph ‘The prosperity and welfare of the people (iv) of my amendment. My paragraph (iv) of Australia’—I do not know if that necessari- reads: ly means quality of life. I guess the wider (iv) to the overall economic prosperity and definition of ‘welfare’ may well include welfare quality of life—and I hope that it does—but, of the people of Australia. especially in relation to the achievement of The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I do full employment in Australia, I am wondering not understand that to be the position. I if we might not add another point about the understand Senator Margetts’s amendment maintenance or improvement of the value of would add a further paragraph (v). wages and conditions and the welfare of workers. Senator COOK—In that case, it is just an additional provision. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Are The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That you moving that as an amendment, Senator? is correct, Senator Margetts, isn’t it? Senator MARGETTS—Yes. I move: Senator MARGETTS—Yes. After subclause (iv), add: Senator COOK—All I say is that I have (v) to the maintenance or improvement of the made my remarks in moving my amendment. real value of wages and conditions and the welfare I do not need to add to them any further. Mr of workers; and Chairman, you might indicate: is it your Senator COOK (Western Australia) (6.11 intention to put my amendment as a freestand- p.m.)—I am just absorbing what the Greens ing amendment and then put the Greens’ have said. If our amendment and the Greens’ amendment later? were passed, clause (1) would state: The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—There (1) The principles of sound fiscal management are is no procedural difficulty in moving Senator that the Government is to: Margetts’s amendment as an amendment to ...... yours. (b) ensure that its fiscal policy contributes: Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Treasurer) (6.13 p.m.)—The government will (i) to achieving adequate national saving; and not be supporting these amendments. I think (ii) to moderating cyclical fluctuations in there a bit of confusion has entered the minds economic of senators in this debate about the means and activity, as appropriate, taking account of the ends and the principles that should be the economic risks facing the nation and the applied to sound fiscal management. I point impact of those risks on the Government’s out to senators that the preamble in the charter already refers to the role of fiscal fiscal position; policy in maintaining the ongoing economic (iii) to the achievement of full employment in prosperity and welfare of the people of Aus- Australia; tralia. Of course, as far as the government is (iv) to the maintenance or improvement of the concerned, this includes the goal—I might say real value that I am surprised you did not mention this, of wages and conditions and the welfare of Senator Margetts—of sustainable economic workers; and growth and full employment. If we use the 7394 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 sorts of arguments that have been put for- to talk about jobs in this country. You were ward, you could infinitely extend what you not job creators; you were job destroyers. believe to be principles. No-one seems to Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) have mentioned low inflation—which is pretty (6.17 p.m.)—No-one should underestimate the important to a lot of people—sustainable importance of the amendment that Senator development, and the list could go on and on. Cook has moved. I am certainly not under- We have covered in the preamble what the estimating or taking lightly the government’s appropriate objectives of fiscal policy are. We resistance to it. The issue of full employment will not be supporting this amendment. I do has a very precise and serious meaning in not wish to labour this point for too long, but economics and in the general view of the the Labor Party lost the right to speak about population and those who comment on these full employment after 13 years and ‘the matters. Classical economics—I must say, recession we had to have’. Because of your Senator Cook, I have never thought of you as failures in that area you have lost the right to classical; perhaps more as a sports model with get up and lecture the people about this. We a few years on the clock—says that full always remember the recession which we, employment is about two to three per cent apparently, ‘had to have’, and which threw unemployment. Senator Cook well under- hundreds of thousands of workers out of a stands the importance of what he is putting job. There was never a complaint from you, down here and the guidance he is attempting Senator Cook. In fact, you were always the to give government. The government does not person up here justifying it. So we do not want to be pushed in that direction because it need to be lectured by you with your pious will put a very onerous burden on it to deliver comments, Senator Cook. You had your something which both sides of the house chance and you failed. recognise is notoriously difficult to deliver on these days. This government is committed to restoring prosperity and employment in this nation. One The overall economic prosperity and wel- of the ways you do it is by having sound fare of the Australian population are important fiscal policies. If big government spending additions, Senator Cook, to the principles of could create jobs we would have a surfeit of sound fiscal management in this bill. We say jobs in this country. A surfeit of debt has again and again that society does not serve been left to us thanks to Senator Cook and his economics; economics must serve society. colleagues. The government has a commit- Amongst all the things you list, Minister, it ment in this area, a commitment to increasing is the job of your government to deliver to the prosperity of people, to making sure that your fullest capabilities full employment, job wages can be related to productivity and to security and the welfare and advancement of the growth which this will entail, to making Australians. You would find it very difficult sure that we work towards achieving full not to agree with those sentiments, but we all employment. This government has a huge disagree as to the method of getting there. commitment in this area. That is why we are This is an attempt to commit you, if you like, doing these things. Part of the reason for the to that direction—to a direction. Accordingly, charter of budget honesty is to stop wreckers I advise Senator Cook that the Democrats will like the previous government, who come in be supporting his amendment. and cause so much chaos and pretend that Senator COOK (Western Australia) (6.20 everything all right. Then, when we open the p.m.)—I was going to rise earlier in the books, we find that is not the case. debate but, on mature reflection, and after Senator Cook, you are entitled to your listening to the support of the Democrats, I views, but spare us your piety on this matter. will not be baited by the government on this. You have huge amounts of baggage on this I will pocket all the criticisms and personal issue. Senator Cook, I believe that you, innuendo made against me, Minister. Thank among other former ministers in your party, you very much for that. But your job is to given your dreadful record, have lost the right explain to this chamber why it is good en- Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7395 ough to have these provisions in the Reserve Senator, have no doubt about our commit- Bank Act but it is not good enough to have ment to those goals. But this is not the part of them in the Charter of Budget Honesty Bill. the bill in which they should be included. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant This is to do with fiscal matters, and the Treasurer) (6.21 p.m.)—If you had listened preamble makes it very clear where we stand. you would have noted my comments on the Senator COOK (Western Australia) (6.23 preamble and how the government would p.m.)—I would just say that we know the define that preamble. The preamble talks of preamble has no meaning here; that is as a ‘maintaining the ongoing economic prosperity consequence of the Native Title Act. We and welfare of the people of Australia’. As far know that that is not the relevant part to be as the government is concerned, this includes construed as a direction of government. So the goal of sustainable economic growth and what you are saying, Senator, is not to the full employment. point. Also, you still have not answered the Senator Murray, I thought your peroration question: why is it that you will not put in was fairly good. I was about to wish issue a this bill what is already in the Reserve Bank ‘hear, hear!’ But unfortunately you had a Act in terms of full employment and the concluding sentence which did not appeal to welfare of the national economy? me too much. This government is entirely Question put: focused on delivering growing employment in That the amendment (Senator Margetts’s)be this country, setting the basis for that, and agreed to. setting the prosperity for the security and welfare of this country. That is the goal. Sound fiscal policy is one of the means by The committee divided. [6.29 p.m.] which such a goal can be achieved. There are (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) differences of opinion on the means to an Ayes ...... 29 end, and that is quite appropriately the subject Noes ...... 27 of debate in this chamber. We think the —— policies you put forward are policies which Majority ...... 2 are liable to increase unemployment, not —— reduce it. They would be liable to add to the AYES insecurity of the Australian people, not in- Allison, L. Bishop, M. Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. crease it. Brown, B. Campbell, G. Let me make this government’s commit- Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. ment to sustainable growth absolutely clear. Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. It is not the sort of growth we had under Cooney, B. Denman, K. J. * Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Labor: whoops, down it comes again; there is Harradine, B. Hogg, J. the recession we had to have. For months, as Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. unemployment mounted and the queues of Lundy, K. Margetts, D. unemployed lengthened, we could not even McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. get the former government to concede that Murray, A. Neal, B. J. there was a recession. Ray, R. F. Schacht, C. C. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. Senator, let me make it clear. There is no Woodley, J. doubt about this government’s commitment. NOES That is why we have had to make some tough Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. decisions—and, I might say, very rarely do Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. we get support from the non-government Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. parties for those tough decisions. A generous Crane, W. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. Gibson, B. F. harvest will be reaped as a result of our Heffernan, W. * Herron, J. policies for this country, and it will be be- Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. cause we had the guts to take a few of these Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. tough decisions. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. 7396 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

NOES and 6, relate to the social implications of McGauran, J. J. J. Newman, J. M. policy decisions and the environmental impli- O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. cations of policy decisions. Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. Our communities are increasingly under- Watson, J. O. W. standing that the path we have come down PAIRS has not delivered them all the benefits they Carr, K. Ferris, J. should have realised and that we need policies Crowley, R. A. Brownhill, D. G. C. which flavour economics with solid doses of Evans, C. V. Troeth, J. ecologically sustainable development policies, Faulkner, J. P. Vanstone, A. E. Mackay, S. Hill, R. M. environmental concern and, perhaps most of O’Brien, K. W. K. Tierney, J. all, concern for our society and the communi- Quirke, J. A. Eggleston, A. ties that make it up. The purpose of environ- Reynolds, M. Patterson, K. C. L. mental policies, of ecologically sustainable Sherry, N. Minchin, N. H. development policies and of economic and * denotes teller fiscal policies is to produce a society in which Question so resolved in the affirmative. people are in harmony with each other and Amendment (Senator Cook’s), as amended, which has a good long-term prospect of agreed to. survival and maintenance, health and welfare. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) That is a big speech for a small amendment, (6.33 p.m.)—by leave—I move: but this is the thinking and the purpose which (3) Schedule 1, clause 5, page 7 (lines 28 and 29), lies behind those intentions. As with our omit "financial effects on future generations", previous amendments, amendment No. 6 is substitute "financial and social effects on intended to add to the requirements and future generations and the implementation of details of the intergenerational report—which the principles of ecologically sustainable is a marvellous term, Minister, that you have development". introduced in your bill; it is a first-rate idea— (6) Schedule 1, clause 21, page 16 (lines 23 and by putting in place considerations of social 24), omit "the financial implications of demo- graphic change", substitute: and environmental implications of policy decisions. Not only do we think that our :(a) the financial implications of demo- amendment will force the government to graphic change; and consider these aspects of any financial deci- (b) the social implications of policy deci- sions; it will also include the cost-benefit sions which may affect future spending and taxing policies; and analysis—and you are aware that I am keen on those—of social and environmental con- (c) the environmental implications of policy decisions which may affect siderations in government fiscal policy. future Government spending and taxing All too often people on our side of politics policies. believe that economic decisions which appar- In trying to flesh out the intention of govern- ently deliver short-term gain in fact deliver ment with regard to this bill, these two long-term cost. That is something we have amendments further the process we have been always been concerned about. Quite frankly, engaged in. it is something that governments in the There is certainly nothing wrong with the modern era are beginning to understand more government’s existing intention to ensure that and more. To add a compliment back to your its policy decisions have regard to their bill once again, the longer term perspective financial effects on future generations. No-one you are trying to introduce in this bill encour- is going to object to that, but what we say, ages that kind of analysis and thought in the once again, is that that leaves out and leaves matter. open the potential for important consider- We think our amendments, as moved ations not to be brought into play by the together, add to the health and prospects that government of the day. Those important this bill should, in its best sense, offer us. I considerations, as spelt out in amendments 3 commend these amendments to the Senate. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7397

Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.37 p.m.)— How can you be honest if your eyes are not I have a little disagreement with Senator wide open to the impact on future generations Murray; I think these are the most important of policies we are making now as far as their amendments that he is bringing forward. The environment and as far as their right to social government is acting as if we are in a world order are concerned, let alone those people in which only dollars count and in which who are going to be immediately affected by policies can only be assessed according to the government policy? Of course you cannot. price tag that is put on them. But life is much The problem here is that it is simple to talk wider than that; the values that people have dollars and it is complicated to talk environ- for themselves, for their societies and for their ment and social wellbeing. But it is a default children coming after them are much wider of the worst order to ignore the complexities than that. As Senator Murray has indicated, a and exemplify the simplicities. That is a very dollar led decision can be a catastrophe for mistaken political outlook and it is one we the environment or for social order. We only should not countenance. If we were a more have to look at the current smog blanket sane, level-headed and caring society, and if covering four or five nations to the north of we did have a long-term view, we would have us to see how fiscal policy—for example, the a charter in here which would make it incum- Suharto government’s policy of allowing bent upon us to look at the social and envi- loggers wherever they liked into the Indo- ronmental ramifications of what we are doing nesian forests and encouraging the transmigra- in our policies, and we would have the tion of millions of people—can lead to an government or the Democrats amending it to environmental catastrophe, despite all the say, ‘We had better look at the dollars as warnings. well.’ But that is not the way it is; the world That is not to say that this would not be a is the other way round and we are going to big job, but the departments are there and pay increasing penalties because of it. they ought to be brought into this assessment I am sure the government is going to get up no less than the Treasury—departments of the and say, ‘Oh dear, this is just too difficult. environment and departments to do with the This is too complex. We want to put our delivery of social justice. We ought not to heads in the sand. If we can’t do that, we at have economics being master of our destiny; least want to wash our hands of our environ- it ought to be very much the servant. Ecologi- mental and social responsibilities.’ That is not cal considerations and social considerations good enough. This is an extremely important ought to be at the forefront. We ought to be amendment. I commend Senator Murray and putting future generations at the top of our the Democrats for putting it before the Senate consideration because if we do not we be- and I hope it will be adopted. come a failed generation; we become a Senator COOK (Western Australia) (6.42 generation that gets looked at by those people p.m.)—The Labor Party will not support this of the future as one which was self-invested amendment. In saying that, it is not because and short-sighted and which forgot about we do not have sympathy for it. If I go to the them. We cannot afford to do that. text of this amendment, on page 7, what this What Senator Murray’s amendment does is amendment does is remove the words ‘finan- move some way towards having parties cial effects on future generations’ and replace contesting elections and being responsible for those words with ‘financial and social effects the environmental and social components of on future generations and the implementation their policies. It is a sensible amendment and of the principles of ecologically sustainable one has to worry about this nation when it has development’. Let me just pause there before not been at the forefront of the government’s I go to the second part of amendment No. 6 consideration. Why has the government not that has been moved conjointly. moved this? How can you be honest about This appears under the heading ‘Principles policies if you are not assessing the environ- of sound fiscal management’ and would be an mental and social outcomes of those policies? amendment to (e) under that list of various 7398 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 items. The problem I have with this is: how tive but for the reasons of the practical appli- is Treasury going to assess objectively the cation, that we oppose this. The same remarks social effects of particular policy principles can be made about clause 6. that are laid down either by the government Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) or by the opposition—now that the minor (6.46 p.m.)—It is an odd sort of statement parties cannot be involved because of a that Senator Cook has made, inasmuch as decision that I voted against—and only those when they were in government his party two parties? I cannot see how Treasury would actually accepted the general principle of the be able to do that. Nor do I see automatically kinds of accounts that we have been talking that Treasury is the appropriate agency to do about, environmental and social accounts, that it. is, the full picture of what is happening within The second part of it is on ecologically the wider economy. That is a principle that sustainable development. I think there is a the previous government agreed to in relation definitional problem with what ecologically to national accounts. They actually made sustainable development is. Even if there was statements that they would work towards an agreed definition, to make an assessment including these things in national accounts. I against particular policy principles is an understand that the Treasury already has an exercise which I think Treasury is ill-equipped environmental economics unit associated with to do. Even if the agency were not Treasury it. That is my understanding. If Senator Cook but the environmental agency, there may be is suggesting that national accounts ought to a considerable difference as to whether or not be taken from Treasury and given to someone what everyone thought was the definition of else, or that elements of national accounts ecological sustainability was in fact being ought to be given to someone else, that is a fairly applied. I know this sounds like a trite different matter altogether. objection, but this has to work in practice It is my understanding that Treasury are after the writs have been issued in an election, already looking at elements of how you when there is a relatively short amount of include satellite accounting and how you time. include other elements that actually give you In assessing the social impact of various the whole picture of how the economy is economic measures, there is a huge amount of going. So I am afraid that what Senator Cook subjectivity involved, and the subjectivity has indicated does not hold water. As I say, brought to this issue will be brought by the Senator Faulkner, when the Labor Party were assessing agency, Treasury. It will be the in government, indicated that they were case, I suspect, that we will want to argue that prepared to move towards that kind of nation- the subjective principles on which they base al accounting and that that might be a goal in their assessment are wrong, or that they do the future. That was part of the various nice not fully comprehend the extent of the social statements that have been made to the envi- implications that we would see as a political ronment movement. The environment move- party. One of the reasons why I would oppose ment, I guess, had no choice but to believe this is that it is in the cut and thrust of the that the Labor Party were serious when they last days of an election campaign when these made those statements. reports are coming down. I must say that I So I just wonder whether Senator Cook has think the government would have the same actually been talking to anyone else or has problem, but far less of a problem, because it taken advice that in fact even Treasury, to my is conservative and we are progressive. But in understanding, unless they have had those the cut and thrust of an election campaign, areas removed, has an environmental econom- having a political party trying to debate ic unit. I would like to think that they had whether Treasury is right or wrong with some units which looked at equity consider- Treasury bureaucrats, does create a major ations and social impacts, that is, in conjunc- political difficulty. It is for those reasons, not tion with national accounts, and whether or because I am out of sympathy with the objec- not there was an index on employment, on Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7399 equity and on greenhouse. There are methods solid financial performance achieved. Its work that have been looked at not only in Australia was concentrated in the following areas: but actually all around the world. identifying strategic access and investment There is a strong debate occurring within opportunities for Australian wool; researching the OECD countries and there is a strong and developing productivity improvements for debate that is occurring within the European land, labour and capital; encouraging invest- Union. There are copious tomes being written ment and the take-up of high quality Austral- on how this can happen. There are countries ian wool products; building on a competitive which are doing this already. It is not impos- Australian export sector; protecting our sible. What Senator Cook seems to suggest is natural resource base; and innovating with that it is something that we have magically and marketing Australian wool. pulled out of thin air and has nothing at all to Under the chairmanship of Mr Alec Morri- do with how national accounts can perhaps be son, the Australian Wool Research and Pro- run. I would strongly argue that this is my motion Organisation has continued to focus whole concern about how this bill has been on the crucial task of building demand for put together: we are pretending that these wool by developing new wool and wool-blend things either don’t exist or can’t exist, or are products, sourcing new markets, strengthening somehow out of the purview of the way you existing ones and improving processing present budgets and the way you present techniques. In a very difficult climate, the national accounts. organisation has remained committed to its I would agree with Senator Brown that task. It was originally set up in 1993 under these two amendments, amendments Nos 3 the legislation of the previous minister, and 6, are not just an addition to what is Senator Bob Collins, who is in the chamber, going on; they are in fact probably the most and since that time it has been funded, as I important element in what is being presented. said before, by the compulsory four per cent Without them, it is in fact a charter of budget levy on all wool growers. dishonesty, not a Charter of Budget Honesty, This coming year is of vital importance to because it does not give the full picture. It the future funding of the organisation because pretends that it is giving the full picture but it will be reviewed by a voluntary vote taken it is in fact giving a very narrow view of what by all wool taxpayers—they have to take up national accounts are, a very narrow view of the option. That process is taking place now what even the economy consists of and the and they can then vote on the rate of future implications for the economy in the future. funding for the Australian Wool Research and Progress reported. Promotion Organisation. Presently, as it is divided up, 3½ per cent of the four per cent DOCUMENTS goes to the promotion side of its activities and Australian Wool Research and the other half a per cent goes to research in Promotion Organisation Australia and overseas. The total amount raised is about $100 million and the organisa- Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New tion, in conjunction with its sister organisa- South Wales) (6.51 p.m.)—I move: tion, the International Wool Secretariat, has a That the Senate take note of the document. budget of around $150 billion and it has that I want to make some comments on the Aus- extra finance through a number of strategic tralian Wool Research and Promotion Organi- alliances with a number of users of the Wool- sation 1996-97 annual report. As most sena- mark and other related business programs. tors would know, this organisation is funded The organisation has a big job to do be- by a compulsory four per cent levy on all cause, of course, you can improve the price wool growers of their gross returns. As the of a product in two ways—one is by promot- report outlines, the financial year 1996-97 was ing it properly and the other is by the produc- a successful year for the organisation both in ers taking a lower price than is sustainable for terms of the activities undertaken and the them. For most of the 1990s, producers of 7400 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 wool have certainly taken a lower price than way in which air safety regulation is currently was economically viable, but there is some being administered in this country. It saddens hope and some prospects that the wool price me to make that statement. is improving. It is a matter of fact that, indeed, had it not The other aspect is the promotion one and been for other matters relating to travel, the in that area the Australian Wool Research and crisis that has enveloped the safety authority Promotion Organisation is exceptionally in the last few weeks would have been given important. As I said, the future funding level far more public prominence in the press than of the organisation is being debated within it has had to this point in time, because it is, industry circles at this time, and wool growers indeed, a crisis arising as a result of some will have the chance to make some impact on extraordinary events that occurred at the last the future funding arrangements for their CASA board meeting in September this year, organisation. The Wool Council of Australia just a few weeks ago. Among those present at has recommended, on behalf of the primary that board meeting were the four new appoint- industry producer organisations in each state, ments—that is, the appointments by the now that the funding remain the same—at four per departed Minister for Transport and Regional cent—and I imagine that will be the decision Development, Mr Sharp—led by the deputy taken by wool growers. But, whatever it is, all chair and now acting chair of CASA, Mr wool growers demand a very high degree of Dick Smith. expertise, a very high degree of accountability and a very high degree of performance, and A number of extraordinary events happened I am pleased to see that the management and at that meeting. Justice Fisher, the then chair directors of the Australian Wool Research and who has since resigned, asked those four Promotion Organisation are providing a board members whether it was true that they higher level of accountability and disclosure had given written notice to the minister—an of their activities than ever before and I unprecedented act in all of my time in poli- encourage them in that regard. tics—that, as a condition of their appointment, they would resign, if so requested, from those Question resolved in the affirmative. positions. Immediately after that confirmation Judge Advocate-General and with no prior notice, those four board Senator MacGIBBON (Queensland) (6.56 members moved peremptorily a vote of no p.m.)—I move: confidence in the chief executive of CASA, Mr Leroy Keith, leading to his immediate That the Senate take note of the document. resignation, which was immediately followed I seek leave to continue my remarks later. by the resignation of the chair of CASA and Leave granted; debate adjourned. the other remaining members of the board. That motion of no confidence was passed four Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia to three. Senator BOB COLLINS (Northern Terri- tory) (6.56 p.m.)—I move: Who was Mr Leroy Keith? Who were these four recent appointments to head Australia’s That the Senate take note of the document. premier safety regulation authority getting rid The corporate plan 1996-97 to 1998-99 of the of? Leroy Keith was an American citizen who Civil Aviation Safety Authority of Australia was recruited from the United States to that has, in the beginning of the document, the position after gaining over 30 years of the authority’s vision statement, which says: most high-level experience in senior positions With the aviation community, create an air safety in the Federal Aviation Authority in the environment which engenders public trust and United States in safety regulation, culminating confidence. in his position as a deputy president of The sad truth is that at the moment the Civil McDonnell Douglas, one of the largest avia- Aviation Safety Authority is in a state of tion companies in the world. When he came absolute crisis and the public are entitled to to us from the United States, he was the have absolutely no trust or confidence in the general manager of quality with McDonnell Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7401

Douglas as well as being the vice-president of That is in fact the case, and it is also the case the company. within industry. I understand that the govern- He was an officer who enjoyed, unusually, ment is in a difficulty at the moment in that the full confidence of not just the government it does not have a new permanent Minister for and the minister, Mr Sharp, who expressed Transport and Regional Development, but that confidence publicly only in April this CASA is in crisis and the government is year, but of the opposition as well. All sena- obliged to give some public explanation. tors who have attended the Senate estimates (Time expired) committees would know of Mr Leroy Keith’s Senator McKIERNAN—I seek leave to attendance at those committees. His compe- continue my remarks later. tence was obvious to everyone. He enjoyed Leave granted; debate adjourned. the confidence of industry in Australia. The minister, as I say, expressed that confidence Australia Post earlier this year when he said in a press Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) release headed, ‘Breakthrough in safety (7.02 p.m.)—I move: regulation’: That the Senate take note of the document. The Director of Aviation Safety, Leroy Keith, is to I seek leave to continue my remarks later. be congratulated on the way he has provided direction for CASA in its work with the PAP— Leave granted; debate adjourned. That is the Program Advisory Panel. Mr ADJOURNMENT Sharp had expressed very publicly on a The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—That com- number of occasions his confidence in Mr pletes consideration of government docu- Keith, and so did we and so did the industry. ments. I propose the question: The industry at the moment is in a state of That the Senate do now adjourn. total apprehension about Leroy Keith’s sack- ing because no credible explanation for it has There has been an agreed speakers’ time for been provided whatever. The General Avia- some speakers and when they rise to speak, tion Association of Australia have already if they do rise to speak, I will ask the clerks written directly to the Prime Minister (Mr to set the clocks accordingly. But, Senator Howard) expressing their concern, and I seek Schacht, you have your full 10 minutes. leave to table their letter. South Australia: Election Leave granted. Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) Senator BOB COLLINS—In the short (7.03 p.m.)—I rise to speak on a matter that time I have left I want to conclude with a has arisen in the South Australian election most extraordinary statement issued by the campaign. Earlier this week I made a speech now acting chair, Dick Smith, to the staff of on the adjournment about the so-called ‘Dale CASA. I want to quote briefly from it. Ex- Baker affair’, in which Mr Baker had given plaining Leroy Keith’s sacking, he says: evidence to the Anderson inquiry into his conflict of interest over a purchase of property To give you an idea of what we expect, I asked fellow Board Member, Dr Paul Scully-Power, to while he was a minister for primary industry sum up the feelings of the Board. and forests in South Australia. He advised the Senior Management that the Board I said in that statement that, according to wants staff to know that the events of yesterday advice I had received, the reason the Premier that led to the resignation of Mr Keith, and the had refused to table the report—although he events of today— had promised to do so when it was first and I am quoting from Dick Smith’s own commissioned—was that Dale Baker had statement— alleged that the President of the Liberal Party would leave each and every one of them with a of South Australia, Mr Martin Cameron, was feeling of shock, apprehension and even fear involved in undermining him, Dale Baker, relative to their personal future and that of the and bringing to light the issue which led to Authority. his demise as a minister. At the time I made 7402 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 those remarks the Leader of the Government On October 11, the Liberal Government will in the Senate, Senator Hill, interjected saying discover—to its dismay—that by meekly bowing that it was a pretty weak allegation, et cetera. to Prime Minister Howard, many of its back benchers will join thousands of other South Aus- I want to point out that on the following tralians on the dole queue. Tuesday morning, that is, yesterday, Mr Tim This offer—be it an official offer or an unofficial Anderson clearly confirmed in an interview plea for help from Mr. Cameron—will not be on ABC radio in Adelaide that Dale Baker accepted, and nor will it be followed up. The had named Mr Martin Cameron, the President Liberals as, the old saying goes, will reap what of the Liberal Party, as being involved in a they have sown. campaign to undermine him on this issue. At the bottom of the press release it tells you That is on the record—on ABC radio. So that for further information you can get what I raised on Monday night in this place interviews with Michael Hudson and it gives was correct, despite the best efforts of Senator his telephone number. Again, that was issued Hill to disparage my remarks. by the Combined Shooters and Firearms I want to go on to another matter which the Council of South Australia. ubiquitous Mr Martin Cameron, the President Isn’t it extraordinary that we have on the of the Liberal Party of South Australia, has day on which the 12-month firearm amnesty been involved in. All I have to do is read a ends, which was yesterday, the President of press release issued yesterday, 30 September, the Liberal Party of South Australia trying to publicly in South Australia by the Combined undermine his own Prime Minister, his own Shooters and Firearms Council of South Attorney-General and the unanimous deci- Australia. I will read the press release. It says: sion—with the exception of one or two The Liberal Party has indicated it would be pre- members in the lower house—of the federal pared to do a backflip on guns and allow people to parliament to ban firearms such as the pump keep pump action and semi automatic shotguns in action and semi-automatic shotguns in return for the Combined Shooters & Firearms Australia, which is what everybody in Aus- Council of SA urging its members to back off in tralia, except that firearm lobby, wanted to their opposition to the Liberal Government. happen after that awful tragedy at Port Arthur The president of the council, Mr Michael Hudson, last year. said that late last week a senior representative of the Council was invited to Liberal Party Headquar- The Liberal Party in South Australia is now ters by the Party’s president, Mr. Martin Cameron, so desperate to get votes that it is willing to to discuss ways of placating the State’s firearms undermine its own policy and offer a possible owners and users. legislative change in South Australia after the "One of our senior members, Immediate Past election to allow people to again have pump President Mr. Rob Low, attended the meeting and, action and semi-automatic shotguns. I find it over a cup of coffee, Mr. Cameron sought ways of astonishing that the President of the Liberal appeasing sporting shooters," Mr Hudson said. Party—who, I understand, holds a position on He indicated that the Government might consider the National Council of the Liberal Party with legislation to allow people to keep pump action and four South Australian federal cabinet semi automatic shotguns. ministers—would be willing to call in this However, Mr. Cameron was told that his offer was group and offer them a change in legislation pointless, considering that most people have had their firearms ‘confiscated’ and melted down. that would fundamentally wreck the agree- ment which all state, federal and territory The press release continues: parliaments reached in the middle of last year. Mr. Cameron obviously realises that the liberal Mr Howard claimed enormous credit for Government has made a serious error of judgement and will pay a dear price at the October 11 election this agreement, and he was fully and unani- when tens of thousands of firearms owners and mously supported by the Labor Party. We users are expected to vote for the United Australia make no bones about our position. As a Party in protest. result, there was almost full unanimous My Council will not be bought off by Mr. support in the Australian parliament. The Cameron’s offer. It is too little too late. President of the Liberal Party, Mr Martin Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7403

Cameron, is not an unknown public figure in where to get off on making this sort of grub- South Australia. He is a former senator in this by offer, this behind-the-scenes deal to get a place and a former member of the Legislative few votes to help save the Liberal Party in Council for very many years. South Australia. Senator Ferguson—You are scraping the Australia-Ireland Parliamentary bottom of the barrel, Schachtie. Friendship Group Senator SCHACHT—I know that Senator Ferguson is interjecting over there because Mr The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Cameron is in the other faction. Ferguson, I believe you have a time arrange- ment with one of your colleagues for five Senator Ferguson—We are all one big minutes. We will set the clock accordingly. happy family. Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! (7.12 p.m.)—I only want to speak briefly for Address your remarks through the chair, five minutes, because I understand that later Senator Schacht, and ignore the interjections. Senator Calvert will be tabling an important And Senator Ferguson will cease interjecting. document—a report on the visit of a parlia- Senator SCHACHT—We know that mentary friendship group to Ireland. At the Senator Ferguson would make some remarks outset, I want to thank Senator Calvert, who because Martin Cameron is in the other was chairman of the Australia-Irish Parlia- faction in South Australia. But I would ask mentary Friendship Group, and Senator Senator Ferguson, through you, Madam McKiernan and his wife Jackie particularly Deputy President: does he support overturning for their involvement in the preparation of the federal and state legislation, which is what this trip. Mr Cameron is doing by putting this offer on This trip took a long time to prepare, and the table to the shooters of South Australia? we had the cooperation of the Irish Embassy; Senator Ferguson—There is no truth in the Irish Ambassador, Richard O’Brien; that whatsoever. together with the Irish parliament, which Senator SCHACHT—This is a public hosted us for one week while we were there. press release which does not have parlia- That made this an enjoyable trip not only mentary privilege and which was issued because of the make-up of the people of this yesterday. Has Mr Cameron denied it? Has he bi-partisan delegation but also because of the issued a writ against Michael Hudson and important information that was gained by us against Mr Rob Low? That will be the test— in Ireland, which has been regarded by many whether a fair dinkum writ has been issued to people in Europe today as Europe’s modern take him to court. I suspect not. miracle, particularly in an economic sense. So I suspect Mr Cameron is scurrying away to I want to particularly thank those people avoid this because what he has done is des- involved in the preparation of this trip. It was picable. He is undermining a policy that 90 done over a long period and done with excel- per cent of Australians agree with. We cer- lence. I would particularly like to thank tainly have on record the shooters of Austral- Senator Calvert and Senator McKiernan for ia, the gun owners, not agreeing with it. But, their roles in preparing for this trip. as they have said, to be offered this deal, after I am not going to speak a lot about the trip they have handed all their guns in and had because there are a lot of other speakers who them destroyed, that after the election they will be commenting on the aspects of the trip. will be given legislation means that this The important aspect was us getting the Liberal Party in South Australia is beyond opportunity to have a first-hand look at their scraping the barrel to find a vote which economy, how they have managed to turn undermines the Prime Minister and Attorney- their economy around in such a short time General of this country. I look forward to and how they are now one of the leading them—that is, the Prime Minister and lights of Europe. There were many things that Attorney-General—telling Martin Cameron were gained on this trip in what was a hectic 7404 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 program which will be beneficial for a long mentary colleague, where the person has time to all of those that went. I say it was absolutely no right of reply, even though that beneficial because, as a group of backbench- colleague is not from my party, having trav- ers, I think there can sometimes be more elled with him for a week and working with importance placed on backbenchers going him on other committees, is outrageous. He away and seeing the sorts of things that also said of former Senator Bruce Childs: happen, because backbenchers from both . . . you’ve never heard of these people, of course parties, after all, do have input at committee you haven’t because they do bugger all except take level on the sorts of policies that we want to your money and travel overseas. Senator Bruce have in the future. Childs. Did you know we had a Senator called Bruce Childs? He retired from Parliament on I want to particularly make comments on September 10th, which makes you wonder why he some comments that were made on the return went on a trip to North and South America when of this delegation from Ireland, particularly on he was leaving the job a few weeks later. the John Laws Show on 15 September. I have Here is a former senator who was held in the never listened to John Laws, and after reading highest regard in this place. You do not have a transcript of his program that morning, I to be a member of parliament who is read in doubt if I will ever listen to John Laws. I the papers every day of the week or sensa- thought some of the remarks he made about tionalised by people like John Laws to make members of our delegation were quite outra- a significant contribution to this parliament geous. and to this place. As a member of the Liberal Party, I take Some of the best contributions I have seen exception to some remarks that were made have been from those people who quietly about some colleagues and friends who went work away doing their job, as Senator Childs on that trip, particularly those from the Labor did here for some 16 or 17 years. To see him Party. I will read into Hansard the end of the spoken about by someone like John Laws on interview conducted by John Laws where he a radio program makes me quite sure that I was trying to chase around every member of will never listen to John Laws because I think parliament who had travelled overseas during those sorts of ill-informed and totally ignorant the winter break. This is how he concludes comments have no place on the airwaves of his interview: Australia. If he wants to make those sorts of Here’s another one. One of the handmaidens tried remarks, let him do some proper research and the same line and I said I’d let you know how we find out what contribution these people have went. made to the parliament. This is him trying to track down members of I know my time is up. The trip to Ireland parliament. He continued: was most worthwhile and I will remember it This is what one said. This is amusing. Ted Grace, for a long time. you know the famous Ted Grace? Oh, Prime Ministerial material, Ted! Ted Grace, one of the Australia-Ireland Parliamentary MPs who went to Ireland, he said: There’s always Friendship Group benefit to Australia when politicians go overseas’. Senator GIBSON (Tasmania) (7.17 p.m.)— Then John Laws laughs and says: I would like to endorse the comments made Yeah, you’re right, Ted. Quite right. Trouble is you by my colleague Senator Ferguson. I would come back. like to thank, in particular, Senator I think that is the most outrageous attack on McKiernan, Senator Calvert and Senator a member of parliament going away on a McKiernan’s wife, Jackie, for organising the parliamentary delegation. He was a well- trip. I particularly endorse what Senator respected member of parliament who served Ferguson said about comments on the John in the other place for a considerable length of Laws Show. It was a very worthwhile trip. It time. For somebody as ignorant of the affairs was a great group and we got on well to- of this delegation as John Laws obviously was gether. The Irish parliament turned on a great to make that sort of statement about a parlia- week for us. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7405

Tonight I wanted to use the short time people found very attractive. The third priori- available to comment on the economic growth ty was a tax incentive, but it was in that order of Ireland and its industry policy. I think there and not the other way around. has been some misinterpretation here in I think the implication for us here in Aus- Australia about what we should be doing with tralia is that it is impossible for us to go regard to attracting investment and trying to chasing Singapore and Ireland with 10 per copy Ireland. cent corporate tax rates versus the 36 per cent I will start with some background. Ireland corporate tax rates. I do not think that will has had fantastic economic growth for the last work. What is more important is for us to sell three years—seven and eight per cent real our advantages as part of the Asia-Pacific growth per year. Going back to 1996, they region, because we have good people here. were a cot case. IMF was about to come in, We have to emphasise education and training government debt was 123 per cent of GDP, of our people and put more emphasis on GDP incomes per capita were 20 per cent training people in the IT industries, for in- below OECD average and in 10 years they stance, which have been very successful in have lifted themselves up to be equal to the Ireland. There is a huge increase in demand OECD average. It is just a fantastic effort. for people with IT skills across the economic commerce area worldwide. We can do that in There has been enormous investment in Australia. We are really competitive in that Ireland. People have interpreted that this area and we should do more about that. investment has basically been driven by tax concessions. Sure, Ireland started off in 1986 Whilst we were in Ireland, the Prime offering tax concessions to businesses to Minister announced an additional 5,000 invest there, with a 10 per cent corporate tax tertiary places that very week. He said, ‘After rate. But that applied to the manufacturing conferring with industry, I’m announcing industry. They had no manufacturing industry, 5,000 additional places that the government so it was easy for them to do that. Some is going to support—2,000 in the electronics years later they widened the advantage and it area, 2,000 in computer programming and also applied to services, but only for services 1,000 for language skills for core centres.’ that were exported out of Ireland. For in- They identified those needs between govern- stance, if a bank invested in Ireland, they had ment and industry. That is what they were to ring-fence their export activity from their investing in—education and the skills base. internal activity—a 36 per cent tax rate on It was a very worthwhile trip to Ireland. I internal activity and 10 per cent on external think there were great messages from that activity. visit which have great relevance to industry Some of the government people we spoke policy here for Australia. I am delighted that to emphasised that a lot of investment was not I was part of the group. It was very worth- really tax driven. I visited the National Irish while. Bank because I knew they had spoken to a lot South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd of businesses. I also visited Hewlett-Packard personally. The managers of the bank and the Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— managers of Hewlett-Packard stressed that the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (7.22 main reason they invested in Ireland was, first p.m.)—I rise tonight to speak about the of all, because it was an easy entry into Senate estimates committee hearing that is Europe; the second reason was good people being held today, sitting concurrently with the and a good education system. They said that sitting of the Senate, in relation to the South good people were available in Ireland. With Pacific Cruise Lines fiasco that has been regard to education, the emphasis in Ireland presided over by Senator Vanstone, the is on the three Rs. The common comment Minister for Employment, Education, Training from the investors who invested there was, and Youth Affairs. ‘Well, Senator, would you believe they still What we have seen today is the most teach grammar here’, which the business extraordinary situation of the government 7406 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 deliberately hindering a Senate estimates mentary scrutiny of a financial disaster that committee hearing. Of course, it has had good was all Minister Vanstone’s own work. reason to do so: it wants to deliberately cover So we had the embarrassing spectacle of up Senator Vanstone’s handling of the $2.7 government senators asking dorothy dix million South Pacific Cruise Lines fiasco. questions to Minister Vanstone, but even Just a few moments ago we heard that, more importantly to DEETYA officers who although Senator Vanstone first knew about brought along their prepared briefs to deal these problems on 11 and 12 June, she did with a whole range of labour market programs not raise the issue with her departmental and Working Nation programs, matters that secretary, Mr Sedgwick, until late August. It they tried to trawl through which went back is absolutely extraordinary. No wonder offic- six or seven years. ers at the Senate estimates committee today have been so embarrassed. We had the embarrassment of an officer at the table with a formal brief on a number of We have had a situation where an order of successful Labor government programs. What the Senate allowed the DEET estimates an extraordinary coincidence! What luck it committee to sit today to deal with the specif- was that this officer of the Department of ic matter of the South Pacific Cruise Lines Employment, Education, Training and Youth issue. It was a clear order of the Senate. So Affairs was able to bring the brief and there apparently this is something that the govern- was a whole series of nicely typed out and ment could not cope with and they had to prepared dorothy dix questions for the lackeys come up with a political strategy to deal with that the government senators on the commit- it. But what they came up with was extraordi- tee asked ad nauseam at the committee. nary. The truth of the matter is that the Liberal It was this: the government members of the committee members could not find one other committee flouted the standing orders of the example of an appalling failure of process Senate and flouted the terms of reference of such as that which Senator Vanstone was the committee, which was to examine involved in. There is nothing comparable to Minister Vanstone’s cruise ship fiasco, in the fiasco that she has presided over. There is order to attempt to protect their minister, nothing comparable to the massive misman- Senator Vanstone. I suppose it is an honour- agement of the minister’s own responsibilities, able enough motive. After all, Senator nothing comparable to the cover-up that Vanstone needs all the help she can get. They occurred in the minister’s office and amongst resorted to the most extraordinary diversion- members of her staff. ary and filibustering tactics to prevent facts emerging. It said it all when we were able to establish Senator Vanstone was away all last week that on 11 or 12 June Senator Vanstone knew and is going to go off again for another about this issue but did not bother even couple of weeks, so it is very difficult for us raising it in any way—formal or informal— then to get parliamentary scrutiny of this with the head of her department, the secretary scandal, this fiasco, that Senator Vanstone is of DEETYA, Mr Sedgwick, until well over both responsible for and has presided over. two months later, in late August. That says it The excuse that government members of the all about Senator Vanstone’s administration of committee used to try to soak up at least half her own portfolio. the time of the Senate estimates committee Today we really have learnt how a Liberal was most extraordinary. They tried to find a government minister runs her own office. We benchmark for Labor’s Working Nation have heard that briefs might go to the program against which the South Pacific Minister for Schools, Vocational Education Cruise Lines fiasco could be judged. That was and Training, Dr Kemp, and a dropped copy the excuse they were using. They could not goes to Senator Vanstone. But Senator do that, of course, but that was a very blatant, Vanstone under no circumstances would sign very transparent attempt to obstruct parlia- off the brief herself; she would have a DLO Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7407 sign off the brief. She would not bother even more condemned now for the adminis- reading it. tration of her own portfolio. We have letters from coalition members of We are entitled to seek explanations and parliament, like Mr Slipper and Mr Jull, to answers for this massive mismanagement of Senator Vanstone. Of course, she does not nearly $3 million. We will not be put off by actually look at the letters that come to her this miserable, low life political tactic; we and does not respond to them. It takes her will get to the heart of it. At the end of the months and months to respond to them. If I day, Senator Vanstone will lose her responsi- were Mr Slipper or Mr Jull, I would object bilities, as she deserves to. As I said, she is most strongly to this. bone lazy, incompetent or stupid. (Time expired) There is a brief to Senator Vanstone herself on Mr Jull’s correspondence which raises a Australia-Ireland Parliamentary range of serious issues related to the South Friendship Group Pacific Cruise Lines fiasco. That is complete- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (7.32 ly unsigned. That is a brief that went to p.m.)—I seek leave to table a report on the Minister Vanstone on 16 May. She has not visit to Ireland by members of the Australia- signed that at all. So we have a situation Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group. where many of these briefs in Dr Kemp’s and Leave granted. Minister Vanstone’s office do not appear to be date stamped as they are received. It is a Senator CALVERT—As Chairman of this shemozzle in Minister Vanstone’s office. No group in the Parliament of Australia, I would wonder she takes the cake as the most incom- like to speak briefly to the report that has just petent of the Liberal government ministers— been tabled; and I know that Senator Gibson which is saying something in a government has already spoken of it. We had the pleasure that is reeling. of accepting a kind invitation from the former Speaker of the Irish parliament, Sean Tracey. I do not think there is any doubt; you have I would like to give sincere thanks to my only to read the editorials, the newspapers and secretary, Senator Jim McKiernan, for his listen to members of her own party bag her efforts; His Excellency Richard O’Brien, mercilessly when you get the opportunity to Ireland’s Ambassador to Australia; Mr Eoin have a private conversation. It is great to hear Faherty, who organised the program; Mr it, really. Even members of the government Seamus Pattison, the present Speaker; Senator parties know that Minister Vanstone is not up Liam Cosgrove, Cathaoirleach, the President to it. It is all right—I will not name them. of the Senate; His Excellency Eddy Stevens, They are all very relieved over there, aren’t Australia’s Ambassador to Ireland. I give they? I can see a few grins. It is all right, I special thanks to the deputy leader of the am not going to name anyone. You are all in delegation, Mr Ted Grace. As people who the clear. read tabloid newspapers would know, I was But let us face it, it has been shown today accompanied by Senator Grant Chapman, that Minister Vanstone is either bone lazy, Senator Kay Denman, Mr Richard Evans, completely incompetent or utterly stupid. Senator Alan Ferguson, Mr Laurie Ferguson, There is no other excuse for what has occur- Senator Michael Forshaw, Senator Brian red in relation to this matter. I have to say Gibson and Senator Julian McGauran. that it has done those Liberal senators who At the outset, I would like to say that, by went to that meeting today—a hearing held as any standard, this delegation learned a lot. I a result of a clear direction and order of the believe we gave a lot and that the visit was of Senate—no credit to try to bring up every great benefit not only to all of us but to the possible extraneous issue under the sun and Australian parliament. Whilst this particular waste hour after hour of the Senate’s time. It friendship group is smaller than the Australia- is a pathetic tactic; it has been exposed in the United States Parliamentary Friendship Group media and, as a result, Senator Vanstone is and the Australia-United Kingdom Parlia- 7408 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 mentary Friendship group, we are particularly with this money, particularly at Dundalk and active and we have hosted in Australia not Carlingford, were very gratifying to us. only delegations but also visits by artists and Comment was made in the report about the authors, one of whom was Tim Pat Coogan opportunity we were given to have one-on- who wrote Michael Collins: A biography.We one discussions about the peace process with do pride ourselves as a group. As you would some of the people involved. It is only by know, Madam Deputy President, 40 per cent doing those sorts of things that you can really of Australian people claim some Irish back- get a feel for what is happening over there. It ground, so it is important that we keep those is pleasing to note that, since our return, there links with our friends in Ireland. seem to be some good signs of peace being As a group we were very privileged to be achieved permanently in that troubled area. able to meet quite a wide selection of senior (Time expired) politicians very soon after the election of the new government. Amongst them were the Australia-Ireland Parliamentary Deputy Prime Minister, Mary Harney, leader Friendship Group of the Progressive Democrats Party; the Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) former Minister for Finance and the Deputy (7.37 p.m.)—I also wish to address some Leader of the Labour Party, Mr Ruairi Quinn; remarks this evening to the report which has the Minister for State and Foreign Affairs, Liz just been tabled by my colleague Senator O’Donnell; and the Deputy Leader of Fine Calvert, the Chairman of the Australia-Ireland Gael, Ms Nora Owen. We also met other Parliamentary Friendship Group, in relation to politicians at different events. One of the most the visit to Ireland by the delegation of the important occasions, of course, was meeting friendship group. the President of Ireland, Mary Robinson, who The first thing I want to say is that a is leaving the presidency to take up a position perusal of the report demonstrates the compre- with the United Nations. We were able to hensive nature of the program which was pass on our best wishes on behalf of the arranged for us by the parliament of Ireland. Australian government on that very important It certainly gives the lie to any claim or task. perception that such visits are mere junkets, One of the things that our delegation was and I join with the earlier remarks of Senator very interested in was the fact that the taxpay- Ferguson, in particular, in condemning the ers of Australia, through our government and remarks of John Laws in relation to this through the former government, are supplying particular visit and also in relation to other something like £3 million for the International colleagues of ours. Fund for Ireland. I know that my colleague He was not the only one who seemed to Senator McKiernan, if he had the opportunity, take umbrage at this particular visit of a would like to speak on this tonight. Unfortu- delegation to Ireland. There was Matthew nately, he will not be able to do so, but I am Horan and other print journalists who similar- looking forward to hearing him speak at a ly made quite unjustified and unsubstantiated future time. allegations about the nature of this visit. I The International Fund for Ireland plays a urge them to digest the details of this report very important part in the peace process that in the hope that they might change their is unfolding in Ireland and, in a small way, views, although I suppose it is very difficult Australia plays a part in that. I know that the to change the views of journalists of that delegation was most impressed with the nature. reception we received from those people. It is also worth mentioning that, following They were genuinely appreciative of the our visit, the Australian ambassador sent a efforts of the Australian government and the cable to the Department of Foreign Affairs Australian people even though, in numerical and Trade in which he highlighted the value terms, the amount of money is not all that of this particular visit in terms of the way in much. The results that are being achieved which it made a very positive contribution Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7409 towards fostering Australia-Ireland relations. investment and for the expansion of economic So that was the independent assessment of activity within a country. That is certainly a Australia’s ambassador to Ireland, that this lesson that Australia can learn. was an important and worthwhile visit. Lower taxation does not necessarily mean There are some lessons for Australia in a loss of revenue and reduced government what has been achieved in Ireland and Senator services, because the expanded economic Gibson earlier this evening detailed the activity that occurs as a result of the incentive economic miracle that has occurred in Ireland of lower taxation, in itself, undergirds the over the last 10 years. I believe that principal revenue base. Although in individual terms among the lessons that can be learnt from the you might have lower tax rates applying, economic achievement of Ireland is what can because of the tremendous expansion in be achieved if a government and a nation economic activity as a result of investment have, firstly, the political will and, secondly, and greater employment being generated, the the unity of purpose to set out a goal and then actual revenue base can be protected, thereby march towards it. Certainly the turnaround in providing the resources for the maintenance the economy of Ireland that has been of government services. So these are all achieved over the past decade is a remarkable important lessons that Australia can learn achievement. from Ireland. (Time expired) Although 10 years ago the Irish economy Australia-Ireland Parliamentary was starting from a much lower base than Friendship Group other European Union countries, over that 10- year period it has consistently outstripped the Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) rest of the European Union as far as economic (7.42 p.m.)—In the very short time that is growth is concerned—year by year over the available in this debate, I want to do three decade—albeit, of course, with some funding things. I want to thank the colleagues who assistance from the European Community. spoke before me for the kind words to me and Nevertheless, the policies that have been put my wife. It was a pleasure travelling with in place have been the major factors contri- each and every one of them, and their buting to that strong economic growth. spouses. Undoubtedly, the policies that have been I do not, in the short time available, seek to applied in Ireland are not necessarily directly justify this particular delegation to Ireland, but transferable to the Australian situation, but let me make mention of the fact that I previ- there is much that can be learnt from them. ously went with a delegation to Ireland which Among the most important of those policy was led by Ron Edwards, then Deputy Speak- prescriptions was the strong emphasis placed er in the House of Representatives. We by the Irish government, with the support of presented as gifts to the hosts of the various the opposition, other community leaders, functions that we attended bottles of Austral- indeed, the Irish community at large, on ian wine. On the occasion of this recent visit, getting the government budget back into the Tanaiste—the Deputy Prime Minister—of balance and paying off government debt. That Ireland made the remark that only very was one of the main goals that was set forth recently had Australia displaced Italy as the in the program of economic recovery which source country of the second largest amount has led to this strong economic growth. of wine going into Ireland. So some things Another factor was the importance placed can be done in delegations such as this one. on quality of education—and Senator Gibson In reading the report—a very brief snapshot has referred to this in some detail—partic- of the visit—people will note that it was a ularly the basic skills being inculcated very hectic visit, the first day of which lasted through the education system. 15 hours, so we were not all the time sam- Taxation reform was a significant factor and pling the products of that country. We made I think that also indicates the incentive that only one recommendation. We could have lower tax rates can provide, particularly for made many others—we could have talked 7410 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 about the taxation system and the economic Australian Wool Research and Promotion Or- system. We consciously made the decision ganisation Act—Australian Wool Research and that it would be better to progress these Promotion Organisation—Report for 1996-97. matters within our own parties, within the Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Safety different forums each of us, as backbenchers, Authority Australia—Corporate plan 1996-97 to 1998-99. is involved with. Defence Force Discipline Act—Judge Advocate The one recommendation, which we all General—Report for 1996. agreed upon, was something that is very dear Official Establishments Trust—Report for 1996- to my heart, and something which should be 97. dear to the hearts of Australian taxpayers. Public Service Act—Department of the Prime That is the matter of the expenditure of Minister and Cabinet—Report for 1996-97. Australian taxpayers’ money in Ireland. Colleagues previously have made mention of Tabling the contribution that the International Fund The following documents were tabled by for Ireland is making to the peace process in the Clerk: Ireland. It is heartening to note that that peace Christmas Island Act— process is continuing, and hopefully it will reach a resolution in the near future. I will Casino Control Ordinance— continue my remarks at a later time. Appointment of Acting Chairperson of the Casino Surveillance Authority, dated 17 Senate adjourned at 7.44 p.m. September 1997. DOCUMENTS Grant of leave of absence of Chairperson of the Casino Surveillance Authority, dated 17 Tabling September 1997. The following government documents were List of applied Western Australian Acts for the tabled: period 15 March 1997 to 12 September 1997. Australian Postal Corporation Act—Australian Cocos (Keeling) Islands Act—List of applied Postal Corporation (Australia Post)—Report for Western Australian Acts for the period 15 March 1996-97. 1997 to 12 September 1997. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7411

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Defence Export Approvals Minister for Health and Family Services: (Question No. 740) Media Monitoring Services Senator Margetts asked the Minister (Question No. 717) representing the Minister for Defence Indus- Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister try, Science and Personnel, upon notice, on 18 representing the Minister for Health and August 1997: Family Services, upon notice, on 28 July (1) (a) What were the top 200 defence export 1997: approvals by value in the 1996-97 financial year; (1) What was the total cost of media monitoring and (b) what are those for the 1997-98 financial services, including press clippings, electronic media year which may already be approved or are await- transcripts etcetera provided to the Minister’s office ing approval. in the 1996-97 financial year. (2) Which companies were involved in each of (2) Which agency or agencies provided these these contracts. services. (3) To which countries did each of these approv- (3) What was the total cost of media monitoring als refer. services, including press clippings, electronic media transcripts etcetera, provided to the department and (4) What was the nature of the equipment its agencies in the 1996-97 financial year. involved in each contract. (4) Which agency or agencies provided these Senator Newman—In accordance with services. advice to the Minister for Defence Industry, Senator Newman—The Minister for Health Science and Personnel the following answer and Family Services has provided the follow- is provided to the honourable senator’s ques- ing answer to the honourable member’s tion: question: (1)—(4) Details are shown in the following (1) The total cost of media monitoring services, tables. The export approvals cover non-military including press clippings, electronic media tran- lethal goods such as non-military firearms and scripts etc, provided to the Minister’s office in the ammunition, as well as commercial explosives. The 1996-97 financial year was $44,301.31. This approvals include temporary exports for demonstra- compares with $111,689.60 for Dr Lawrence in the tion and evaluation purposes; returns to manufactur- 1994-95 financial year. ers for warranty and other repairs; and returns to (2) These services were primarily provided by owners of goods that have been repaired or re- Croll Communications, Media Monitors and turned after trials in Australia. Rehame. The names of the exporters are not released due (3) The total cost of media monitoring services, to the Commercial-in-Confidence nature of the including press clippings, electronic media tran- information. scripts etc, provided to the department and its For the financial year 1997/98 to 26 August agencies in the 1996-97 financial year was 1997, there have been only 170 approvals for $262,688.64. This compares with $322,604.92 for defence and related goods. A cut-off value of Dr Lawrence in the 1994-95 financial year. $22,000 has been assigned to approvals for 1997/98 (4) These services were primarily provided by which is similar to that of 1996/97. Below this Croll Communications and Media Monitors. Other value, the approvals are not significant and mainly providers included Rehame, Media Search Corpora- consist of non-military firearms. Those ‘awaiting tion Ltd (NZ), Imedia Press Clipping Service, approval’ have not been included as each applica- Warburton Media Monitoring Service and News tion is considered on a case-by-case basis and Research. approval should not be assumed. 7412 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

(a) 1996/97 400,000,000 New Zealand Military vessel 35,500,000 United Kingdom Unmanned airborne vehicles 20,000,000 Bangladesh Radar equipment 20,000,000 Kuwait Military vehicles 20,000,000 Pakistan Radar equipment 20,000,000 United States Aircraft parts 11,889,909 Brunei Military vessels 10,000,000 Thailand Vessel production technology 6,740,940 Indonesia Mine detection equipment 6,500,000 United States Non-military explosives 6,000,000 Several (licence) including: Non-military explosives Hong Kong Indonesia New Zealand Papua New Guinea Philippines Singapore Sweden United States Vietnam 5,755,549 Micronesia Military vessel 5,500,000 United Arab Emirates Training/simulation equipment 4,508,365 Pakistan Missile jamming equipment 4,100,000 United States Fire control system 4,000,000 Indonesia Military aircraft 3,100,000 Indonesia Training/simulation equipment 3,000,000 France Fire control equipment 2,690,000 United States Military vehicles 2,365,710 United States Military software 2,365,710 United States Military software 2,175,000 Singapore Military vehicles 2,000,000 Israel Military electronics equipment 1,860,000 Malaysia Military software 1,500,000 Thailand Training/simulation equipment 1,450,000 Sweden Fire control system 1,328,381 Malaysia Training/simulation equipment Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7413

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

1,212,300 United States Aircraft parts 1,177,311 Singapore Large calibre weapons 1,100,000 Sweden Military software 1,020,725 Singapore Large calibre weapon accessories 975,000 United Kingdom Military electronic equipment 874,634 Cambodia Military radio equipment 860,000 United Kingdom Vessel parts 853,000 United States Military vehicles 850,000 Thailand Military vehicles 787,000 France Acoustic detection equipment 760,000 United States Aircraft parts 636,000 Philippines Non-military explosives 636,000 Philippines Non-military explosives 600,000 Sweden Training/simulation equipment 600,000 United States Aircraft parts 539,734 United States Military electronic equipment 521,380 United States Military radio equipment 508,075 United States Military electronic equipment 500,000 India Military radio equipment 500,000 Japan Training/simulation equipment 500,000 New Zealand Non-military explosives 500,000 Papua New Guinea Non-military explosives 500,000 Slovenia Training/simulation equipment 446,044 Sweden Radar equipment 422,463 Malaysia Non-military explosives 400,000 United Arab Emirates Military vehicle 388,822 Fiji Non-military explosives 382,809 United States Acoustic detection equipment 380,000 Singapore Missiles 367,363 United States Aircraft parts 332,402 Italy Military computer equipment 326,022 Malaysia Non-military explosives 313,300 United Kingdom Mine detection equipment 302,604 Malaysia Non-military explosives 298,000 United States Depth-charge launchers 290,000 United Arab Emirates Imaging equipment 290,000 United Kingdom Imaging equipment 7414 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

275,000 Papua New Guinea Ballistic vests 271,000 United States Aircraft parts 259,873 United Kingdom Military computer equipment 254,378 United States Aircraft parts 227,793 Austria Military detonators 211,982 United States Aircraft parts 210,812 Indonesia Non-military explosives 186,851 Kuwait Non-military ammunition 185,701 United Kingdom Military radio equipment 181,629 Malaysia Training/simulation equipment 177,305 Kuwait Non-military ammunition 176,000 United States Large calibre armament 164,412 South Korea Non-military ammunition 164,204 Kuwait Non-military ammunition 150,000 Germany Military explosives 140,000 United Arab Emirates Ballistic vests 132,777 United States Aircraft parts 131,580 United Kingdom Military detonators 124,550 Philippines Non-military explosives 120,000 Japan Ballistic vests 117,500 Papua New Guinea Ballistic vests 115,885 United States Non-military firearms 110,000 United Arab Emirates Fire control system 109,657 Thailand Military radio equipment 107,996 New Zealand Non-military explosives 107,901 Thailand Training/simulation equipment 106,581 New Zealand Non-military explosives 106,000 United States Non-military firearms 103,107 United States Military electronics equipment 102,564 South Africa Non-military firearms 100,000 France Fire control equipment 100,000 Greece Fire control system 100,000 Indonesia Fire control system 100,000 Israel Fire control system 100,000 Jordan Fire control system 100,000 Malaysia Fire control equipment 100,000 Oman Fire control equipment Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7415

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

100,000 Singapore Fire control equipment 100,000 Sweden Fire control equipment 100,000 Turkey Fire control system 100,000 United Arab Emirates Fire control equipment 100,000 United Kingdom Fire control equipment 100,000 United States Aircraft parts 100,000 United States Fire control equipment 100,000 United States Fire control system 100,000 Vietnam Fire control system 98,620 Philippines Non-military ammunition 96,500 United Kingdom Military vehicles 95,318 United States Aircraft parts 92,010 Hong Kong Non-military explosives 90,300 Fiji Non-military explosives 86,784 Thailand Military firearms 86,300 United States Military software 85,600 Sweden Fire control system 85,000 Sri Lanka Ballistic vests 85,000 Thailand Ballistic vests 83,298 South Africa Non-military explosives 81,030 United States Fire control equipment 80,000 United States Inert ammunition 75,000 United States Non-military firearms 73,710 United Kingdom Military computer systems 71,280 Norway Signal flares 70,000 United States Non-military firearms 69,667 New Zealand Non-military explosives 69,100 Thailand Military detonators 67,239 India Aircraft parts 65,000 United Kingdom Non-military firearms 63,250 Belgium Ammunition accessories 61,400 United States Aircraft parts 60,540 Singapore Non-military ammunition 60,115 Belgium Military firearm components 57,372 Israel Alerting and warning equipment 56,475 New Zealand Military pyrotechnics 56,405 New Caledonia Non-military firearms 7416 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

56,145 Malaysia Training/simulation equipment 55,645 New Zealand Military explosives 55,506 Philippines Military ammunition 52,950 Malaysia Military firearm accessories 51,936 Yugoslavia Military radio equipment 51,199 United Kingdom Non-military firearm accessories 50,000 Denmark Fire control equipment 50,000 Turkey Fire control system 45,794 United States Aircraft parts 45,794 United States Aircraft parts 45,612 New Zealand Non-military explosives 45,300 United States Non-military firearms 45,000 Micronesia Military firearms 44,850 United States Aircraft parts 44,259 United States Aircraft parts 42,396 United States Aircraft parts 42,396 United States Aircraft parts 42,360 Malaysia Military firearm accessories 40,051 United States Aircraft parts 40,000 United Kingdom Aircraft parts 40,000 United Kingdom Aircraft parts 40,000 United States Fire control system 39,125 United States Aircraft parts 38,750 Hong Kong Non-military explosives 38,657 New Zealand Non-military firearms 37,500 United Kingdom Non-military ammunition 36,800 New Zealand Non-military explosives 35,621 United States Aircraft parts 35,620 United States Aircraft parts 35,500 United Kingdom Military firearms and/or components 35,000 Germany Non-military firearms 35,000 United States Non-military firearms 34,048 United States Training/simulation equipment 33,680 United States Military electronic equipment 32,800 Singapore Non-military ammunition 32,555 New Caledonia Non-military firearms 32,454 United States Aircraft parts Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7417

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

32,123 New Zealand Naval equipment 31,879 New Zealand Ammunition production equipment 31,513 Papua New Guinea Non-military ammunition 31,200 Singapore Non-military explosives 30,128 United States Aircraft parts 30,000 Papua New Guinea Ballistic vests 30,000 United States Military radio equipment 29,800 United States Acoustic detection equipment 29,567 Vanuatu Non-military firearms 28,250 Hong Kong Non-military explosives 28,000 United States Missile parts 27,389 South Africa Non-military telescopic sights 27,285 Singapore Non-military ammunition 26,400 United Kingdom Military firearms and/or components 25,752 Thailand Non-military explosives 25,000 New Zealand Fire control system 25,000 Switzerland Fire control system 25,000 Thailand Fire control system 24,810 United States Military electronics equipment 24,334 Malaysia Non-military explosives 24,000 Brunei Non-military ammunition 24,000 United States Non-military firearms 23,777 South Africa Non-military telescopic sights 23,760 United States Aircraft parts 23,692 United States Aircraft maintenance equipment

(b) 1997/98(to 26 August 1997)

4,628,000 Indonesia Training/simulation equipment 4,234,748 Pakistan Missile jamming equipment 2,117,432 New Zealand Aircraft parts 1,488,032 United Kingdom Aircraft parts 1,028,819 Cambodia Mine detectors 800,000 Kuwait Military vehicles 650,000 Indonesia Submarine periscope 445,498 Thailand Military firearms 437,000 United Kingdom Military propellant 394,934 United States Military electronic equipment 7418 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Value (AUD) Destination Nature of Goods

251,830 Thailand Military ammunition 200,000 Japan Ballistic vests 200,000 Philippines Aircraft parts 190,000 United States Aircraft parts 150,000 United Kingdom Non-military firearms 108,871 New Zealand Training/simulation equipment 100,000 United States Fire control system 93,000 United States Non-military firearms 51,000 United States Aircraft parts 48,148 Denmark Fire control equipment 46,200 New Zealand Non-military explosives 45,000 United States Militarised computer 42,396 United States Aircraft Parts 40,000 Russia Submarine detection equipment 40,000 United States Fire control equipment 34,041 New Zealand Military propellant 30,476 New Zealand Smoke generators 30,000 Canada Military software 25,000 Malaysia Fire control equipment 24,080 Papua New Guinea Aircraft Parts 23,110 Papua New Guinea Non-military firearms 22,920 United States Military electronic equipment

Government Contracts - consultancy services for the Evaluation of the National Breast Cancer Centre; (Question No. 771) - assisting with assessment of base funding Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister requirements for existing community con- representing the Minister for Health and trolled Aboriginal health and substance abuse services; Family Services, upon notice, on 27 August 1997: - undertaking the national review of the Aborigi- nal and Torres Strait Islander coordinated care (1) (a) What contracts has the department, or trials; agencies of the department, provided to KPMG Peat Marwick since 3 March 1996; and (b) what - fraud assessment and control plan for the has been the total cost of these contracts. Health Insurance Commission; - Senator Herron—The Minister for Health providing advice concerning the separation process of Medibank Private from the Health and Family Services has provided the follow- Insurance Commission, pursuant to the an- ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- nouncement by the Minister for Health and tion: Family Services in April 1997 that this separa- (1) (a) The department and its agencies have tion would occur; provided the following contracts to KPMG Peat - conducting a review of Therapeutic Goods Marwick since 3 March 1996: Administration; and Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7419

- developing a paper outlining the issues to be Edith Cowan University and the Murdoch Universi- addressed in the implementation of ICD-10, a ty. database for the International Classification of Diseases, from a State perspective. (2) Does the Minister support the proposed merger. (b) The total cost of these contracts is $848,636. (3) What steps has the Minister taken, if any, to Government Contracts facilitate the merger. (Question No. 775) (4) Can the Minister advise of any other progress Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister that has been made towards the merger. representing the Attorney-General, upon Senator Vanstone—The answer to the notice, on 27 August 1997: honourable senator’s question is as follows: (a) What contracts has the department, or agen- (1) I have received numerous representations, on cies of the department, provided to KPMG Peat behalf of several organisations, concerning the Marwick since 3 March 1996; and (b) what has transfer of the Bunbury campus of Edith Cowan been the total cost of these contracts. University to Murdoch University. These have been Senator Ellison—The Attorney-General has both for and against the merger. provided the following answer to the honour- (2) As higher education institutions are autono- able member’s question: mous bodies set up under State legislation, the I am advised by my department that it has not decision on the future responsibility for the Bun- provided any contracts to KPMG since 3 March bury campus ultimately rests with the Western 1996. Australian Government and the institutions con- cerned. As you may be aware, discussions are I provide the following details in relation to the taking place between officials of my Department agencies within the portfolio which provided and the Western Australian Office of Higher contracts to KPMG since 3 March 1996: Education on the development of a strategic plan AUSTRAC—(a) KPMG was engaged to develop for the provision of higher education in the State. a Fraud Control Plan for AUSTRAC. (b) Total The future of the Bunbury campus should be cost: $25,950. addressed within this context. The Common- Australian Institute of Criminology—(a) K-PMG wealth’s position is that the strategic plan must was engaged to investigate the costs incurred by the have the support of all the parties involved. Institute in holding conferences, including an (3) Officials of my Department and the Western examination of the real cost of present arrange- Australian Office of Higher Education agreed at a ments, cost effective strategies, and outsourcing June meeting of the Commonwealth and State Joint options and costs. (b) Total COSt: $3,500. Planning Committee (JPC) that the Commonwealth Australian Federal Police—(a) (i) A team of four would advise Murdoch University of the level of KPMG consultants was engaged to undertake a funding that would be available to the Bunbury major evaluation of the AFP’s primary Common- campus should the transfer proceed. The purpose wealth law enforcement program, "Program 1: of this communication was to enable Murdoch Investigation of Crimes Against the Common- University to be in a position to confirm its interest wealth". in the transfer so the Commonwealth could then (ii) A consultant from KPMG was engaged to ascertain Edith Cowan University’s position on the coordinate the implementation of initiatives arising transfer. My Department initially wrote to the Vice- from Program 1 (above), and to develop corporate Chancellor of Murdoch University in July to indi- information arrangements. cate a proposed level of funding and has been clarifying the basis of the funding adjustments (b) (i) Total cost: $181,421. associated with any transfer of the campus in (ii) Total cost: $167,200. response to questions raised by Murdoch Univer- sity. Universities: Mergers (4) The new Vice-Chancellor of Edith Cowan (Question No. 786) University, Professor Millicent Poole, has recently Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister indicated her opposition to the transfer of the for Employment, Education, Training and Bunbury campus. It is my view that the Common- Youth Affairs, upon notice, on 29 August wealth is not in a position to pursue the transfer of the Bunbury campus to Murdoch University if it 1997: does not have the approval of ECU and in the (1) Has the Minister received any representations absence of a State strategic plan agreed to by all on the proposed merger of the Bunbury campus of Universities. 7420 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Australian Food Standards Code (4) ANZFA is in the process of finalising its (Question No. 808) recommendation to AQIS which will require imported cooked pig meat and cooked chicken meat Senator Forshaw asked the Minister to comply with the relevant specifications in representing the Minister for Health and Standard S2 if it is frozen and a similar set of Family Services, upon notice, on 3 September microbiological specifications if it is chilled. The 1997: requirements for chilled product are in addition to those required in the Food Standards code and are (1) Does all imported food have to meet stand- not applied to domestic product but are considered ards set by the Australian Food Standards Code necessary because the history of the handling, (AFSC). transportation and packaging of these imported (2) Is Standard C1 the relevant standard for products will not be known. cooked pig meat and cooked chicken meat. (3) Does this standard provide microbiological University Teacher Training specifications for cooked chicken and pig meat; if so, where in the standard are the specifications (Question No. 812) covering these foods. Senator Tierney asked the Minister for (4) With reference to section 3(2) of the Import- Employment, Education, Training and Youth ed food Control Act, which states that food poses Affairs, upon notice, on 4 September 1997: a risk to human health if it contains pathogenic micro-organisms or their toxins, and given that the With reference to evidence provided to the Australian New Zealand Food Authority (ANZFA) Employment, Education and Training References advised a Senate committee in 1996 that this Committee during the inquiry into the status of section of the Act enables a standard to be imposed teachers, in which a witness from the South- on imported food which may be in addition to that Western Region of Sydney Principals Conference required by the Food Standard Code. gave evidence that their three closest universities, Has ANZFA recommended to the Australian the Universities of Western Sydney, Wollongong Quarantine and Inspection service (AQIS) that and New South Wales, are all changing their standards should be applied to both chicken and profiles to downgrade teacher education: pigmeat, in addition to those required by the AFSC, (1) What would an examination of the latest to ensure that any potential for public health 1996-97 and previous 1995-96 university profiles problems from pathogenic micro-organisms or their across Australia show about the commitment by toxins is removed; if so, was this recommendation individual institutions to the provision of teacher made because of the way these products are education. manufactured, handled, transported and packaged; if not, can ANZFA identify the information it relied (2) Can a table be provided to show by way of on to satisfy itself that the manufacturing, handling, comparison the financial, student enrolment and transportation and packaging of these products will staff establishment of teacher education courses be safe. within the nation’s universities over the period of the past two profile reports. Senator Newman—The Minister for Health and Family Services has provided the follow- Senator Vanstone—The answer to the ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- honourable senator’s question is as follows: tion: (1) The attached table, drawn from my Depart- (1) Yes. ment’s records and published statistics (Selected (2) Standard C1 is one of the relevant standards. higher education staff statistics 1995 and 1996, The other standards are:Standard A1—Labelling DEETYA) demonstrates that nationwide fluctu- and Advertising; Standard A2—Date marking of ations in education load and staffing have been Packed Food; Standard A12—Metals and Contami- small between 1995 and 1997 (staffing figures are nants in Food; Standard A14—Maximum Residue not yet available for 1997). It is clear from the Limits; Standard S2—Frozen Pre-cooked Foods. figures that the sector’s commitment to teacher education is firm. Variation within individual (3) No. If the cooked pig meat and cooked universities’ education load and staff numbers is a chicken meat are frozen there are relevant matter of internal planning priorities and is not microbiological specifications in Standard S2. If dictated by the Government. they are chilled there are no relevant microbiolog- ical specifications in the Food Standards Code. (2) The attached table provides the information However, all food for sale in Australia must requested: information on financial allocation to comply with the general provisions of the various teacher education by universities is a matter of Food Acts that require food to be fit for human internal budgeting and is not available to Govern- consumption. ment. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7421

Education Student and Staff Statistics

Institution Student Load1 Staff2 1995 1996 1997 % Change 1995 1996 % Change Actual Actual Estimated 1995-1997 Actual Actual 1995-1996

EFTSU EFTSU EFTSU FTE/FFTE FTE/FFTE

Charles Sturt Uni- 1409 1464 1546 9.77% 79 82 3.80% versity Macquarie Uni- 1405 1339 13322 -5.91% 68 74 8.82% versity Southern Cross 415 468 476 14.70% 39 36 -7.69% University University of new 1034 1199 1245 20.42% 66 51 -22.3% England University of 653 630 582 -10.92% 42 47 11.90% New South Wales University of 1493 1328 1296 -13.22% 84 81 -3.5% Newcastle University of 1700 1253 1304 -23.29% 110 108 -1.82% Sydney University of 1323 1489 1458 10.22% 103 98 -4.85% Technology, Syd- ney University of 1994 1981 2251 12.91% 99 108 9.09% Western Sydney University of 787 892 915 16.20% 49 49 0.00% Wollongong NSW Total 12213 12044 12396 1.49% 739 734 -0.68%

Deakin University 1990 1624 1566 -21.31% 85 80 -5.88% La Trobe Univer- 910 911 884 -2.91% 52 55 5.77% sity Monash 1381 1316 1438 4.14% 92 89 -3.26% University Royal Melbourne 766 766 743 -3.03% 1 49 4800.00% Institute of Tech- nology Swinburne Uni- 0 0 0 0.00% 0 0 0.00% versity of Tech- nology University of 338 260 292 -13.61% 18 19 5.56% Ballarat University of 2697 2521 2365 -12.31% 225 220 -11.11% melbourne Victoria Universi- 239 271 292 22.18% 28 22 -21.43% ty of Technology VIC Total 8321 7670 7580 -8.91% 501 514 2.59%

Central Queens- 565 741 1109 96.33% 30 38 26.67% land University Griffith Universi- 1369 1415 1772 29.44% 108 108 0.00% ty James Cook Uni- 662 716 8133 22.88% 42 40 -4.76% versity Queensland Uni- 2641 3765 3029 14.70% 141 138 -2.13% versity of Tech- nology University of 527 615 651 23.67% 33 31 -6.06% Queensland University of 882 970 1086 23.17% 39 41 5.13% Southern Queens- land QLD Total 6645 8223 8461 27.33% 393 396 0.76%

Curtin University 644 658 711 10.40% 36 34 -5.56% of Technology Edith Cowan 2251 1933 2050 -8.94% 36 34 -0.87% University Murdoch Univer- 422 427 492 16.71% 26 26 0.00% sity University of 225 241 235 4.44% 18 15 -16.67% Western Australia WA Total 3542 3260 3488 -1.52% 195 189 -3.08%

Flinders Universi- 674 698 881 30.74% 49 49 0.00% ty of South Aus- tralia University of 236 214 141 -40.03% 14 14 0.00% Adelaide 7422 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

Institution Student Load1 Staff2 1995 1996 1997 % Change 1995 1996 % Change Actual Actual Estimated 1995-1997 Actual Actual 1995-1996

EFTSU EFTSU EFTSU FTE/FFTE FTE/FFTE

University of 1951 1796 1832 -6.08% 186 151 -18.82% South Australia SA Total 2861 2708 2855 -0.20% 249 214 -14.06%

University of 1076 979 1083 0.63% 18 15 -16.67% Tasmania

Northern Terri- 434 433 406 -6.34% 33 26 -21.21% tory University Batchelor College 274 258 132 -51.82% 51 46 -9.80% NT Total 708 691 538 -23.94% 84 72 -14.29%

Australian Na- 0 0 0 0.00% 0 0 0.00% tional University University of 615 619 667 8.43% 57 63 10.53% Canberra ACT Total 615 619 667 8.43% 57 63 10.53%

Australian 1979 1935 2372 19.84% 136 122 -10.29% Catholic Univer- sity

Australia Total 36884 37149 38357 3.99% 2354 2304 -2.12%

1 Source: 1997-1999 and 1998-2000 Educational Profile Submissions

2 Source: Selected Higher Education Staff Statistics, 1995 and 1996—DEETYA EFTSU Equivalent Full-time Student Unit FTE/FFTE: Full-time Equivalence/Fractional Full-Time Equivalence.

Department of Workplace Relations and loyee is being offered salary packaging; and (c) Small Business: Salary Packaging what are the salary ranges applicable to these employees. (Question No. 840) (7) What percentage of an employee’s total Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister salary is allowed to be taken as non-salary benefits. representing the Minister for Workplace (8) Please list the options or items that are allowed to be salary packaged under any depart- Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on ment arrangement. 4 September 1997: (9) Do any of the arrangements offered benefit (1) Has the department negotiated or indicated a from an employer exemption from fringe benefits willingness to negotiate salary packaging for its tax. employees. Senator Alston—The Minister for Work- (2) Has the department informed any staff of its place Relations and Small Business has intention to offer salary packaging schemes to its provided the following answer to the hon- employees. ourable senator’s question: (3) Can a copy be provided of the communica- (1) Yes. tion in (2), as well as information regarding: (a) (2) Yes. when it took place; and (b) what developments have occurred regarding implementation of salary (3) The intention was in the form of clauses in a draft proposal for an Agency Agreement (certified packaging. agreement) and draft Australian Workplace Agree- (4) Can details be provided of any salary packag- ments (AWAs). ing arrangements which have been made available (a) The draft proposal for an Agency Agreement to employees of the department. was first circulated to staff as a basis for discussion (5) Can details be provided of the number of on 4 July 1997 and the draft AWA was first salary packaging arrangements which have been circulated to senior managers as a basis for discus- entered into by employees. sion on 27 August 1997. (6) (a) Are salary packaging arrangements being (b) A company has been engaged for administra- offered to all employees or only selected employ- tion of the process for the department and its em- ees; (b) if selected employees, what class of emp- ployees. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7423

(4) Details are currently being developed. The (2) Salary packaging was discussed with focus Agency Agreement and Australian Workplace groups on the development of Australian Work- Agreements are currently being negotiated. place Agreements for SES Officers. It has also (5) No arrangements have been entered into by been raised briefly in focus groups on the develop- employees at this stage. ment of a certified agreement for other staff. In an (6) (a) All employees. information bulletin distributed to all staff on 11 September 1997 the department indicated that it has (b) NA. "the option of offering salary packaging to all (c) NA. staff". (7) 50% has been proposed. (3) (a) A preliminary discussion paper on salary (8) The items are currently being determined. packaging was distributed to SES Officers invited (9) No. to attend focus group sessions in July and August. A copy of this is at Attachment A. The all staff Department of Health and Family information bulletin, which was distributed on 11 Services: Salary Packaging September is at Attachment B. (Question No. 846) (b) The department is currently working with a consulting firm to develop detailed options and Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister information packages for staff on the implications representing the Minister for Health and of salary packaging. Family Services, upon notice, on 4 September (4) The department has not yet finalised any 1997: arrangements for salary packaging. (1) Has the department negotiated or indicated a (5) Nil. willingness to negotiate salary packaging for its (6) The department has not yet made a final employees. decision on this matter, but has kept open the (2) Has the department informed any staff of its option of offering salary packaging to all employ- intention to offer salary packaging schemes to its ees. employees. (7) The department has not made a final decision (3) Can a copy be provided of the communica- on this matter. tion in (2), as well as information regarding: (a) when it took place; and (b) what developments (8) The department has not made a final decision have occurred regarding implementation of salary on this matter. packaging. (9) No. (4) Can details be provided of any salary packag- ATTACHMENT A ing arrangements which have been made available SALARY PACKAGING to employees of the department. BACKGROUND (5) Can details be provided of the number of Composition of Packages salary packaging arrangements which have been entered into by employees. Salary packages are generally made up of: (6) (a) Are salary packaging arrangements being . cash benefits, including salary and allowances; offered to all employees or only selected employ- . non-cash benefits, including items which are ees: (b) if selected employees, what class of subject to salary sacrifice; employee is being offered salary packaging; and (c) . superannuation; and what are the salary ranges applicable to these . employment costs, which generally covers employees. FBT, leave loadings, administration costs, (7) What percentage of an employee’s total superannuation guarantee and the new superan- salary is allowed to be taken as non-salary benefits. nuation tax, but some employers may also (8) Please list the options or items that are include payroll tax and workers compensation. allowed to be salary packaged under any depart- (For executives, some employers have also ment arrangement. included the costs of offices and administrative (9) Do any of the arrangements offered benefit support as a way of encouraging economies in from an employer exemption from fringe benefits these areas.) tax. Employee’s Perspective Senator Herron—The Minister for Health From the employee’s perspective, to see any and Family Services has provided the follow- benefit in salary packaging, the value of the salary package received must be equal to or greater than ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- the equivalent gross salary that would have been tion: received. However, the past advantages of salary (1) The department has indicated a willingness packaging have been greatly eroded through the to negotiate salary packaging for its employees. extension of FBT arrangements to cover most items 7424 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997 which are salary sacrificed. For most benefits, the ISSUES amount of FBT included in the package is equal to Range of Benefits Commonly Available the top marginal tax rate. Consequently, there is no Appendix 2 provides a brief analysis of items monetary advantage in most salary sacrifice. People which are generally offered to employees in terms paying less than the top marginal income tax rate of remuneration packaging. The most common would actually be worse off in most circumstances. components are employer superannuation contri- One area where there may be a significant butions, salary sacrifice superannuation contribu- advantage is in the provision of a car, as some tions, reward payments, cars, professional associa- costs receive a concessional tax treatment. In tion membership and self education expenses. The addition, some other benefits are exempt from FBT. range of major items does not vary significantly Other benefits may be included in remuneration from those already provided in the APS to SES packages without attracting FBT as they are subject Officers. to the otherwise deductible rule. This applies if an It may be appropriate not to make any significant employee would have received a once only income changes to current arrangements for the SES given tax deduction had the employee been responsible the potential for significant administrative costs and for providing the benefit. Then the employer may the fact that most other organisations only provide reduce the taxable value by that amount. The only a limited range of benefits to their employees. If advantage to employees is in terms of a stream of other items are included then the administrative income throughout the year rather than a later lump costs should probably also be deducted from the sum tax refund. Benefits included in these catego- package. ries are at Appendix 1. Even if there is no financial Superannuation advantage, some employees may prefer to salary sacrifice as this arrangement is more convenient Superannuation could be a problem area in the through automatic bill paying through the salary context of salary sacrificing. This is because the system. This could apply particularly to people average value of CSS benefits is significantly working long hours, or who travel frequently. greater than that of average PSS benefits. The latest DoF advice is that the long term costs, as at 30 Some financial advantage may be gained through June 1996, are 18.9% for CSS and 10.1% for PSS. the effect of the Medicare Levy and not being If we adopted the common practice of providing liable for other costs, such as the new Superannua- two people in similar positions with packages with tion Tax, although the position on whether it is the same total employment cost, then a PSS possible to salary sacrifice to specifically avoid this member would receive significantly more salary tax is not clear. Our latest advice is that if there are than a CSS member. Presumably, this would be any ‘loopholes’ associated with reducing this tax achieved through increasing the base salary of the liability through salary sacrifice, they will soon be PSS member rather than reducing the base salary closed. If salary is sacrificed it may reduce salary of the CSS member. However, significantly differ- for superannuation purposes. In this case a financial ent salary increases such as this could not be disadvantage may result later in life when pensions justified. come into play. The alternative approach would be to exclude the Employer’s Perspective employer contributions under the CSS and PSS schemes from the salary package. The package From the employer’s perspective the cost of would then be $x plus superannuation, rather than providing a salary package should not exceed the $y including superannuation. As you will note from net cost of providing an equivalent gross salary. In Appendix 2, employer superannuation contributions the determination of a net cost of providing a fringe are not always costed when provided. This ap- benefit to individual staff, the employer must proach would be justified on the basis that different consider the actual cost of the benefit, a range of superannuation benefits are paid now, and that tax issues, any additional administrative costs legislation prohibits people from transferring including the maintenance of records and FBT between schemes. returns, and any on-costs including superannuation guarantee charge and superannuation surcharge. This approach would also avoid the problem that the figures quoted above are average costs only, Administration costs can be substantial, particu- and that individuals within the one scheme will larly for items such as managing a car fleet and receive different benefits depending on their determining the best tax treatment of these (which personal circumstances, such as age at entry. The can vary according to the number of kilometres logical extension of an argument to differentiate driven). The Department of Industrial Relations has between schemes is that we should also do so also noted that these costs need to be taken into between individuals. We would then need to account when determining the cost of packages. identify each individual’s superannuation benefit, However, employer’s may still wish to offer salary even though this is not possible in a defined benefit packaging to attract suitable employees. scheme. Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7425

The option of not including superannuation in the Car and mobile phone (where private use is salary package would not preclude people from minimal) sacrificing salary for an additional superannuation benefit. Taxi fares in specified circumstances QUESTIONS Child care at an employer provided child care . Should there be a limit on the proportion of centre (on site centres only) salary which may be salary sacrificed? Protective clothing . Should the menu of items which may be Tools of trade packaged be limited? . What items should be included on this menu? "Otherwise Deductible" Benefits . Should administrative costs of packaged items Telephone reimbursements (where business use be borne by the individual? applies) . Should CSS and PSS contributions be costed Computer leases in salary packages? Investment loan interest subsidies APPENDIX 1 FBT Exempt Benefits Professional subscriptions (business related) Laptop or portable computer (1 only) Other business related expenses Briefcases APPENDIX 2 Subscriptions to professional journals The following table identifies remuneration items Airport lounge memberships provided to employees (Source: Cullen Egan Dell, Business related software 1996/97). The final column represents the percent- age of survey respondent organisations which Electronic diaries and calculators costed those items into Total Remuneration of Corporate Credit Card membership fees Employment Cost.

% of Organisations Snr Executives Provided Costed Employer superannuation contributions* 85 68 Salary sacrifice superannuation contrib’s 80 63 Variable reward payments 54 27 Company vehicle 95 78 Second Company vehicle 32 33 Vehicle allowance 23 19 Parking 38 22 Discounts on Co. products 35 6 Payment of private telephone accounts 46 24 Professional association membership 64 22 Club/gym membership 17 8 Health insurance/expenses 37 27 Additional life or salary continuance insurance 32 18 Mortgage subsidy 9 6 Home loans 9 8 Personal loans 8 3 Investment loans 6 6 Reimbursement of non-business expenses 9 7 Business equipment purchase/lease 21 10 Savings plan 3 1 Financial planning 11 6 Dependant’s education expenses 7 6 Child care 6 4 7426 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

% of Organisations Snr Executives Provided Costed Private travel 6 5 Spouse travel 10 3 Hospitality/spouse allowance 3 2 Uniforms 2 - Shares 21 5 Health evaluation or medical checks 23 3 Self education expenses 41 8 Leave loading 27 15 * All companies are required to make superannuation contributions. However, the above figure does not total 100% because some funds allow non-contributory superannuation with voluntary pre-tax contributions while others allow salary sacrifice contributions only (notional).

ATTACHMENT B (b) advancement within and across classification Workplace Reform in HFS—Bulletin No. 6 levels linked to both competence and performance. 11 September 1997 The IDP process will involve consultation between individual staff and their supervisors, within a WORKPLACE REFORM in HFS framework of required and expected skills for the A MESSAGE FROM THE SECRETARY respective classification and team. Progress against Certified Agreement agreed plans should be reviewed twice yearly. The framework will take some time to develop, but I wrote to all staff on 28 July with some broad good work is already underway through the skills ideas for a Certified Agreement in HFS as a basis audit process and the initiatives in several program for discussion amongst focus groups. I have now areas. A first round of IDPs could be introduced begun to receive feedback from the focus groups during l997-98 accepting that the system should be and there are already a number of consistent themes refined as we learn from experience. emerging about how we manage in the Department and suggestions for doing things better. Some changes to the classification structure are In light of these, and some further work in Corpo- suggested below. These are intended, in part, to rate Services guided by the Human Resources facilitate clearer career streaming to support Management Committee, I believe we can begin advancement linked more directly to the develop- now to put some flesh on the bones of a possible ment of relevant skills and competencies, as well Agreement. I am keen for these proposals and as performance. It is important for us to recognise options to be tested further by focus groups, and for the different requirements of, for example, technical those not participating in these groups to also have and professional staff, and to balance general the opportunity to comment. Your feedback will competencies with the subject matter knowledge help us to ensure that the draft Agreement, when essential for our credibility and high performance. finalised, responds as fully as possible to the PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT diverse wishes and needs of staff across the Depart- An effective performance management system is ment. critical to overall performance improvement and it These more specific suggestions and options build is essential that such a system encompass all staff on the three themes I identified previously for the within HFS. Ideally, it should include 360 degree Agreement to support our corporate goals: feedback and be closely linked with pay advance- . skills development; ment and individual development plans. There should also be close links with our corporate and . performance management; and business planning processes. . attracting and retaining staff. An ideal system would build on those things which SKILLS DEVELOPMENT motivate us already such as concern for our clients, Skills development can be more formally structured a strong sense of public service and professional into our remuneration and management systems values of excellence and objectivity. It would through: incorporate monetary and non-monetary rewards, (a) Individual Development Plans for all staff and rewards for teams as well as individuals. linked to the proposed performance feedback My own view is that we do not combine all these system; and elements very well, and there is a reluctance both Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7427 to recognise and reward top performance and to - replacing ‘increments’ with pay advancement address seriously poor performance. Some previous more strictly tied to assessments of perform- experience in performance based pay has caused ance and competence (an alternative is to many staff to be cautious about trying again. Yet, introduce for all staff a performance based we must, at the very least, review existing arrange- bonus scheme that does not get built into the ments, such as promotion and incremental advance- base pay); ments which are meant to be based on merit and - promotion within streams to be based on performance. criteria which give proper recognition to Specific suggestions and options include: performance and competence, including Performance feedback and management experience-at-level. Performance Feedback . At this stage, team reward arrangements are . A performance feedback system for all staff based only on the non-monetary (or small integrated with other HRM functions including monetary) awards arrangements. Options could remuneration, rewards, inefficiency, probation be developed for monetary rewards for teams, and discipline; it would also be integrated with but I would caution against any expectation Individual Development Plans. The program that it would be easy to design an acceptable could be introduced before a new broad and fair system for teams, that involves sig- banded salary structure is implemented in 1998 nificant monetary rewards. by way of initial performance agreements (and Initial Impact IDPs) from the beginning of l998 for those . The Department guarantees that staff would be without them at present. translated at least at their current dollar salary Probation level and, in addition, on approving an agree- . Probationary arrangements should be linked to ment staff would receive a salary increase yet the performance management system including to be determined. the performance feedback program and ineffi- RETENTION AND ATTRACTION OF STAFF ciency. A further option is the use of proba- I have previously mentioned that our remuneration tionary promotions, subject to any require- strategy needs to reflect our labour market reality ments under the new Public Service Act. and the need to assess our relative attractiveness to Inefficiency the skilled people we need to keep and recruit. . Streamline the inefficiency process and inte- Market rates assessments assist us in this regard grate with the performance feedback system, and we have been gathering data on this to help relying on internal rather than external review frame the way ahead. Regular market surveys will processes. be undertaken to ensure we have evidence on which to better inform our decision making about New Classification Structure our remuneration arrangements. Such information Links to performance management and remunera- will be made available to staff and their unions. tion We must do a number of other things to be "the . The Government Policy Parameters for agree- employer of choice" such as flexible employment ment making require that the new APS struc- arrangements (eg. work and family policies), ture be implemented in the life of the first effective recruitment systems and individual certified agreement or by no later than the end development planning. Things we should pursue of l998. The Department proposes to introduce include: a new performance based salary progression Competitive Remuneration and Salary Progression system from l July l998. Recognition and Rewards Detailed proposals are still being developed, but . The performance feedback system will not the core of a new performance-based classification only facilitate good communication and feed- structure might include: back but also provide an effective vehicle to - streaming classifications into key career equitably reward staff. groups for HFS that might be linked to compe- Salary progression within pay band tencies and performance processes; the streams . Pay advances (and/or bonuses) will be paid on might comprise, for example, a general profes- the basis of attained performance results, sional stream (for most policy areas), the measured by both competencies and perform- different technical/specialist professional ance. Pay bands could be widened to improve streams, an administrative stream and a man- rewards for good performers. agement stream (an alternative is to fully broadband such streams, possibly along the Competitive remuneration lines suggested by the Department of Work- . A balance needs to be drawn in the Agreement place Relations and Small Business); between an across-the-board pay increase, and 7428 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

an increase subject to performance results. If Home Based Work there is evidence that changes in pay relativi- . This initiative aims to provide greater access ties are required in response to market pres- to home based work—we aim for a better win- sures (eg. for particular technical skills) then win outcome by reviewing the cost structure, that might be achieved through selectively assessing the real risks and placing greater offering higher increases subject to perform- onus on staff to meet OH&S and security obli- ance results, while keeping a standard across- gations, and fit out while minimising the costs the-board increase in pay for all staff. Within to the agency. Work teams might have authori- the context of competitive remuneration we ty regarding home based arrangements for a also have the option of offering salary packag- team member taking into account operating ing to all staff. requirements, budgets, etc. Balancing Work and Private Lives HR SIMPLIFICATION AND DEVOLUTION OF Leave Packaging RESPONSIBILITY WITH MATCHING AC- COUNTABILITY TO MANAGERS AND TEAMS . This system involves combining sick leave on full pay and half pay with special leave (pa- Simplification of our human resource management rental carers leave) to make, say, l8 days practices can assist greatly in achieving more personal leave per year, which is fully accu- effective devolution and in freeing up resources. I mulative. That is, sick leave could be used for have outlined below some initiatives we could family/carer responsibilities. pursue to simplify the way we manage our people issues, and to give greater responsibility and Definitions for leave accountability for people management issues to . Access to personal leave and bereavement managers and teams. leave might recognise a broader definition of Better Management Process: immediate family or household. Discipline and Grievances Carryover of 48/52 Scheme . The Department will undertake to review these . The HSH Agency Bargaining Agreement 1994 processes in consultation with staff after introduced a scheme that provided for staff to proclamation of the new Public Service Act purchase additional leave of up to 4 weeks per with a view to simplified internal processes. year. Although the take up of this leave by The purpose is to avoid unnecessary delay, staff has been somewhat limited, feedback expense and legalism and to ensure quick, fair from focus groups has indicated that staff still and realistic resolution of problems that can value the scheme. On that basis the intention otherwise damage all the staff affected directly is to ensure this leave provision carries into or indirectly. the new agreement. It may be possible to Allowances supplement this with a provision for half pay Higher Duties Allowance recreation leave? . When a job becomes temporarily vacant the Part-time Work (PTW) expectation would be that the team share the . This initiative aims to streamline the access to duties without any additional allowance, PTW for staff and the onerous administrative subject to such duties being within the train- processes for approving variations to PTW on ing, skill and competence of staff members. agreement of all parties. Teams might have Longer periods may require negotiation be- authority to grant access to PTW for a team tween the team members and the team leader member taking into account operating require- for some form of recognition for team mem- ments, budgets, etc. as well as changes in bers undertaking such duties, including pay- personal circumstances of the team member. ment or other reward. Public Holidays Senior Officer Expense Allowance . This allowance provides for the amalgamation . This initiative allows managers to grant of the allowance into salary and it would now alternative religious/cultural public holidays to count as salary for superannuation purposes for their staff, ie. a substitution scheme. SOs. Amalgamation takes away a high admini- Working Hours and Flextime strative workload. . This initiative would broaden the bandwidth to Travelling Allowance and Single Day TA 7.00am to 8.00pm. This means overtime would . This initiative would abolish part day TA for not be paid between these hours. Staff would staff travelling by air or rail and develop a also be able to work normal hours on a week- reimbursement system for those travelling by end if their manager approved the arrangement road. A review of TA might examine the flexi- taking into account such things as building bility of contract accommodation arrangements operating costs, supervision, etc. with payment by the Department directly Wednesday, 1 October 1997 SENATE 7429

rather than to the individual. We would look job or their workmates’ job because of a pay rise. to achieve the maximum concessions from our I appreciate this concern, but do not see the issue travel contracts, such as group bookings. as a one-dimensional trade-off. We will have to pay First Aid, Motor Vehicle, Language, Eyesight for the skills and people we need if we truly aspire Testing, Disability Allowances to be an organisation that is best practice and achieves the highest levels of performance in the . Review these allowances to see how and why interests of better and more effective delivery of they are paid. Single rates of allowance, Government programs. If we are to be an employer cessation or change to administration proced- of choice for existing staff and for staff who we ures are options. want to attract to HFS, then we have to adjust our Excess Travelling Time Allowance remuneration in line with that of our ‘competitors’. . The intention would be to abolish this provi- Equally, many staff have already mentioned sion given the very low use and application inefficiencies in our current processes which need within the Department, the complexity and to be addressed. It would be quite wrong to con- inequity of the allowance, and the unreason- tinue such processes under a misguided desire to ably high administration costs for the allow- protect employment. ance. Of course we can only work within the resources Restriction (On Call) we have been given by Government and as such we will need to cut our cloth to suit and carefully . Restriction Allowance is payable to a small calculate any pay increase which is part of the number of staff required to remain available certified agreement. But I believe there are a for recall to duty outside of normal hours number of options open to us which do not imply generally in relation to security issues or IT an unreasonable jobs/pay tradeoff. These include: support functions. The allowance has complex rules and a high administrative workload in its . the 1.5% Safety Net Adjustment (SNA) current form. Introduction of a standard $2 per provided in annual supplementation by the hour rate for all restriction could significantly Government; reduce the costs of administering payment of . examining our work practices to more effec- the allowance without impacting greatly on the tively use our operating budgets thus produc- entitlements of the individual staff in receipt ing savings—for example, re-engineering our of the allowance. Restriction allowance would work places in Divisions, State and Territory be paid for the full period of restriction with Offices, and Programs; no deduction for overtime worked. . trading off costly and inflexible employment Remote Locality Allowances arrangements to produce more effective and . This initiative removes access to remote efficient outcomes whilst at the same time locality provisions for new locally engaged producing savings—for example, reducing our staff. Current staff would continue to receive expenditure on higher duties allowance; their allowances for a set period. Alternatively . other savings initiatives to reduce operating we could adopt an option to cash out remote costs—for example, gaining the best price locality allowances or roll them into one through our travel contract arrangements; and allowance to reduce workload in administering these complex provisions. For new recruits to . staging our pay increases and linking them remote localities it would be open to the genuinely to performance and competence. Department to negotiate transfer/locality costs What this means is that within a context of continu- through an individual Australian Workplace ous improvement we will need to seek the highest Agreement. level of productivity and to examine our expendi- Relocation Allowances ture, structures, processes and procedures. Our aim . Rationalisation of allowances and reimburse- should be to free up funds for high priority pur- ment arrangements to take up appointment, poses and such savings can be shared directly with transfer or promotion within the Department. staff in the form of pay rises. Simplification of HR Give greater discretion to managers to negoti- processes is one example of finding savings. We ate a package with each staff member. will need to further reengineer our business prac- tices and structures to facilitate better and more Loss or damage to clothing cost effective outcomes. . Removal of access to claims of less than $50 I encourage all staff to contribute ideas for achiev- as administrative costs often exceed the cost ing real savings across their areas of activity. I of the claim. would like to see in our certified agreement a AGREEMENT FUNDING OPTIONS commitment by all of us in the Department to I know from the feedback I have received from continually examine our expenditure items and our focus groups that staff are concerned at the pros- management processes and structures to see wheth- pect of a trade-off between jobs and a pay rise. er there are more efficient and effective ways of That is, people obviously don’t want to lose their going about our business. 7430 SENATE Wednesday, 1 October 1997

TIMING the staff who do not belong to a union. Your ideas I would like to see a certified agreement concluded and preferences about how we can more effectively before the end of 1997 with a proposed date of consult with all staff would be welcomed. implementation being 1 January 1998, such that the FEEDBACK benefits including increases to salary can flow to I welcome your feedback on the proposals put all staff at that time. Pay performance based forward. In particular I would like these to be increases could flow from l July l998. discussed in focus groups and more widely in AUSTRALIAN WORKPLACE AGREEMENTS workgroup discussions, but most importantly I need (AWAs) to know what people are saying. So I would ask that staff or groups of staff give feedback to the Government policy provides that certified agree- team working on the workplace reform issues (see ments provide for AWAs. I believe AWAs would attached). be suitable for the SES and Medical Officers and perhaps other categories such as Senior Officers A Lastly I appreciate some staff may have concerns and B. If the Public Service Act is amended it may with some of the items being proposed. This is an be possible to offer some senior staff AWAs on the inevitable part of industrial agreement-making; basis of a trade off of tenure for a "loss of tenure" moreover, in an organisation as diverse as HFS it allowance. I do not propose to use AWAs to place is not possible to achieve "all things for all people". all senior staff on fixed term appointment, and I am I would ask that you carefully consider what we are very keen for HFS to maintain support for a career- trying to achieve and how the Agreement might based Australian Public Service. best support the Department in meeting its respon- sibilities and its vision for the future while provid- CONTINUING CONSULTATION ing a competitive level of remuneration and condi- We have been undertaking a very detailed consulta- tions for staff members. tion process to provide a context for workplace A S Podger reform in HFS and to better understand the issues Secretary which staff see as important. We are also looking at how we can broaden that consultation, for WORKPLACE REFORM in example, staff representatives who would represent Health & Family Services

Shaun McCarthy—Director (02) 6289 5866 Rob Sheehan (02) 6289 5871 Ainslie Langshaw (02) 6289 5748 Geoff McKinnon (02) 6289 5963 Debbie Edwards (02) 6289 5607 Jenny Maddison (02) 6289 5683 E-Mail Address: Reform-Workplace Intranet Site: Workplace Reform General Inquiries: (1800) 500 674