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Regional Oral History Office University of California the Bancroft Library Berkeley, California Regional Oral History Office University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California Lloyd Ulman An Oral History Interviews conducted by Riyad Koya in 2011 Copyright © 2013 by The Regents of the University of California Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ********************************* All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents of the University of California and Lloyd Ulman dated August 9, 2012. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/collections/cite.html It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Lloyd Ulman “Lloyd Ulman: An Oral History” conducted by Riyad Koya in 2011, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2013. Lloyd Ulman, Photo courtesy of Institute for Research on Labor and Employment v Table of Contents—Lloyd Ulman Forward by Clair Brown and Paul Ryan ix Introduction by Riyad Koya xv Interview 1: May 27, 2011 [Audio File 1] 1 The New Deal, the Labor Movement, and the American Middle Class — Industrial Relations — Berkeley's Institute of Industrial Relations (IIR) — California Labor and IIR-Appointment of Ulman as Director — "The Babe" — Tammany Hall — Townsend Harris High School — Columbia College — Economics: an "arid" discipline — Socialism — Hotelling's theory of democracy [Audio File 2] 17 University of Wisconsin — Milton Friedman — Edwin Witte — Master's Thesis — John Commons — Sumner Slichter — Picket Lines — Institutional Economics — The Labor Problem Interview 2: June 24, 2011 [Audio File 3] 32 "The smartest guy in the room" — Harvard economics faculty — Naval supply officer — conscientious objectors — Oran, Algeria — Kasserine, Tunisia — Allied invasion of southern France — recall to America — commissioning the USS Polana [Audio File 4] 43 The Pacific Theater — integrating the Navy — "liberty" at Hokkaido — Qingdao, China — Golden Gate in '48 — Harvard case studies — Sumner Slichter and postwar demand — Selig Perlman on American exceptionalism — institutional economics and Marxism — Veblen and habit — trade unions and Marxism — further Harvard case study — Schumpeter and Keynes — Hyman Minsky — Alvin Hansen — Paul Sweezy Interview 3: July 8, 2011 [Audio File 5] 61 Shipboard on the Pacific — "human relations" in the Navy — 1990 return to Japan — wartime efficiency — Keynesian lessons — meeting Lassie Ulman — vi further Harvard case studies — Schumpeter and Keynes — Slichter's forecast — Paul Samuelson — Schumpeter and Sweezy [Audio File 6] 75 The Rise of the National Trade Union — bargaining for wages and jobs — Taft- Hartley Act — postwar labor strikes — labor and anti-communism — John Dunlop — University of Minnesota — Adlai Stevenson — Leo Hurwicz Interview 4: August 25, 2011 [Audio File 7] 90 Hiring at Minnesota — separate Economic Department — Leo Hurwicz — Paul Samuelson — exchange with Milton Friedman — recruitment to Berkeley — more Adlai Stevenson — Andreas Papandreou — Duluth bus strike — James Hoffa — postwar left — final Minnesota questions — arrival at Berkeley — Walter Galenson — Berkeley Economics Department — recruitment to Council of Economic Advisors [Audio File 8] 110 Kennedy and James Tobin — wage and price "guideposts" — Steel Workers' contract — Arthur Goldberg — inflation vs. employment — The Government of the Steel Workers' Union — wages and productivity — a "Brookings economist" — Friedman and money supply — promulgating the guideposts — intellectuals and labor Interview 5: September 1, 2011 [Audio File 9] 126 The Steel Workers' Union — John L. Lewis — desegregating the coal miners' union — Lewis and Roosevelt — Arthur Goldberg — Labor Management Advisory Committee — meeting JFK — Arthur Okun's forecast — 2nd meeting with JFK — labor unions and liberal economists [Audio File 10] 146 Further work of Council of Economic Advisors — immigration questions — "more than a union" — Walter Reuther — George Meany — Institute of Industrial Relations Directorship — Don Vial and the Labor Center — Labor and the Institute vii Interview 6: September 30, 2011 [Audio File 11] 160 Founding the Labor Center — Don Vial — Norm Amundson — Minority Leadership Training Program — labor and occupational health program — California Public Employee Relations — further Institute programs — Institute faculty — Margaret Gordon [Audio File 12] 174 Legacy of the Institute — labor and economics — Free Speech Movement (FSM) — Heyman Committee Report — Labor and the FSM — Bettina Aptheker — Senate Policy Committee — means and ends — Berkeley faculty and the movement — Mario Savio — Arthur Goldberg — Clark Kerr and the FSM Interview 7: October 6, 2011 [Audio File 13] 190 Free Speech Movement — Chancellor Heyns — student leaders — Berkeley faculty and FSM — social movements and institutions — Vietnam War — firing of Clark Kerr — Jerry Brown and the University — Berkeley Faculty Association — preparing for elections [Audio File 14] 206 Faculty vote — Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development — manpower policies — flexibility of labor markets — Sweden's "manpower policy" — centralized bargaining — decentralizing forces — Gösta Rehn — a declining British economy Interview 8: October 20, 2011 [Audio File 15] 218 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development — Pieter de Wolff and Henry Phelps Brown — Bent Hansen — Sweden and wage restraint — Order of the Polar Star — Britain and wage restraint — Donovan Commission — Frank Chapple — Winter of Discontent — All Souls College — Lord Hailsham [Audio File 16] 232 American exceptionalism — the labor contract as sacrosanct — Italy and the scala mobile — Ezio Tarantelli — back to Washington D.C. — Wage Restraint volume — meeting President Nixon — Milton Friedman — monetary policy — labor and Nixon viii Interview 9: October 27, 2011 [Audio File 17] 244 Manpower policy — discrimination — unemployment — integration — Nixon and wage and price controls — ideology and economics — Challenges to Collective Bargaining — wage restraint — coal miners' strike — President's Pay Commission — Paul Volcker and inflation — Ted Koppel and Nightline [Audio File 18] 259 Unionism, Economic Stabilization, and Incomes Policies — Labor and an Integrated Europe — markets and union jurisdiction — Poland — Auschwitz — Work and Pay in the United States and Japan — legacies of World War II — forms of social compact in Sweden and Japan — IRLE conferences — unions and globalization — Sherlock Holmes [Audio File 19] 273 2007 Ulman Symposium — Occupy — "what is our question now?" ix Foreword Most people remember the first time they met Lloyd Ulman, because Lloyd, quickly sizing up a person, makes remarks that engage the person and get her or him thinking and talking. We have both known Lloyd for many years: Clair, as colleague and friend; Paul, as academic visitor and friend. Clair recalls clearly her first encounter with Lloyd when she went to Berkeley for a job interview. Lloyd greeted her by saying, “Finally we are interviewing women, and thank goodness Barbara [Bergmann] had a student to send us. Tell me about your work on discrimination in the labor market.” Paul remembers first talking to Lloyd at the photocopier during his sabbatical year in the 1990s at the Institute of Industrial Relations, when Lloyd gave him helpful suggestions for a school-to-work project he was working on. Lloyd has subsequently affected both of our lives in meaningful and delightful ways. Lloyd’s engagement with others typically involves his asking probing questions with a twinkle in his eye and, formerly, a pipe in his hand (until he had to give it up), followed by his telling a story or two that stick in your mind until finally the meaning of the anecdote reveals itself. In the graduate labor seminar that she taught with Lloyd, Clair realized that often she did not fully comprehend Lloyd’s comments. So she began making notes on them, until a story’s significance dawned
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