1
01 BEFORE THE GAME AND FISHERIES
02 COMMITTEE
03 OF
04 THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
05
06 * * * * * * * * *
07 IN RE: HOUSE BILL NUMBER 2289
08 * * * * * * * * *
09 BEFORE: BRUCE SMITH, Chair
10 Edward Stabeck, Member
11 Curt Sonney, Member
12 Tina Pickett, Member
13 David Comes, Member
14 HEARING: Thursday, August 3, 2006
15 7:00 p.m.
16 LOCATION: Lackawanna College
17 One Progress Plaza, Suite 2
18 Towanda, Pennsylvania
19 WITNESSES: Heidi Prescott,
20 Ralph Saggiomo, Peter Gee,
21 Michael Gee, Michael Gee
22 Reporter: Kenneth D. O'Hearn
23 Any reproduction of this transcript
24 is prohibited without authorization
25 by the certifying agency.
2
01 A P P E A R A N C E S
02
03 ROD COREY, ESQUIRE
04 House Majority Legal Staff
05 B6 Main Capitol
06 Harrisburg, PA 17120
07 Counsel for House Republicans
08
09
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
01 I N D E X
02
03 OPENING REMARKS
04 By Bruce Smith 5 - 9
05 TESTIMONY
06 By Heidi Prescott 9 - 34
07 By Ralph Saggiomo 34 - 51
08 By Peter Gee 51 - 56
09 By Michael Gee 57 - 87
10 By Mike Gee 89 - 107
11 CLOSING REMARKS
12 By Bruce Smith 107 - 110
13 CERTIFICATE 111
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
01 E X H I B I T S
02
03 Page
04 Number Description Offered
05 NONE OFFERED
06
07
08
09
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
01 P R O C E E D I N G S
02 ------
03 CHAIR SMITH:
04 This is an official public
05 hearing of the Game and Fisheries
06 Committee. I thank all of you who are
07 in attendance for your attendance.
08 And I apologize for the delay, but I
09 wanted to get some things straight
10 because since it is a public hearing,
11 every word that's spoken is going to
12 be recorded and part of the first
13 presentation is going to be a video
14 recording and I had to work out the
15 details so that the reporter would be
16 able to take care of it.
17 I am State Representative
18 Bruce Smith. I'm Chairman of the Game
19 and Fisheries Committee. I'm from
20 York and Cumberland Counties. I'm
21 from the 92nd District of York and
22 Cumberland Counties. And on my left
23 is Chairman Stabeck.
24 MEMBER STABECK:
25 Okay. Go ahead.
6
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 No, go ahead. Introduce
03 yourself and any other ---.
04 MEMBER STABECK:
05 Ed Stabeck, Democratic
06 Chairman of the Committee. And I
07 represent the Mid-Valley and Upper
08 Valley portions of Lackawanna County
09 and Southern Lancaster.
10 MEMBER SONNEY:
11 Representative Curt Sonney.
12 I represent the Court Legislative
13 District of Eastern Erie County.
14 MEMBER PICKETT:
15 I'm representative Tina
16 Pickett. I have Bradford, Sullivan
17 and Susquehanna County. And I want to
18 take just a second to thank you Mr.
19 Chairman for being here tonight in
20 Bradford County and in the Endless
21 Mountains. We're very pleased to have
22 you here and all of the staff and all
23 of the people who have come to
24 participate tonight for the hearing.
25 So thank you so much for being here.
7
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 Thank you, Tina. You stole
03 the first part of my ---
04 MEMBER PICKETT:
05 I'm sorry, sir.
06 CHAIR SMITH:
07 --- agenda that's not
08 written down, but a welcome from you
09 and the Committee's appreciation for
10 allowing the testimony here. And also
11 the arrangements that you have made
12 including the last minute change which
13 you took care of so expertly.
14 MEMBER PICKETT:
15 Thank you, sir.
16 CHAIR SMITH:
17 And on my right ---.
18 MEMBER COMES:
19 I'm David Comes. I am the
20 Executive Director for the Chairman
21 and the House Game and Fish Committee.
22 And I think the two of us have been
23 together for the longest on record, 16
24 or 17 years now. A long time.
25 CHAIR SMITH:
8
01 As Chairman, I'm in my 12th
02 year as Majority Chairman and that's
03 the longest anybody has ever served in
04 Pennsylvania history as Majority
05 Chairman of this Committee. Rod?
06 ATTORNEY COREY:
07 Rod Corey, House Majority
08 Legal Staff.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 Okay. The purpose of the
11 hearing is to hear testimony on House
12 Bill 2289. We have about four people
13 who will be making presentations, each
14 of which will have an opportunity to
15 be questioned by Committee Members,
16 just by Committee Members. And the
17 first one is Heidi Prescott. Heidi, I
18 think if you put that box down so
19 everybody in the audience will be able
20 to see you, your presentation.
21 Presentations are all limited to 15
22 minutes. And Heidi, you're on.
23 MS. PRESCOTT:
24 Thank you very much.
25 CHAIR SMITH:
9
01 And mention your
02 organization also and its membership.
03 MS. PRESCOTT:
04 My name's Heidi Prescott.
05 I'm with the Humane Society of the
06 United States and in Pennsylvania we
07 have 500,000 members. And I'll start
08 tonight's presentation. I normally
09 would paraphrase, but I'm going to
10 read my entire testimony after driving
11 this far.
12 CHAIR SMITH:
13 You're out of state now;
14 right? So how far did you drive?
15 MS. PRESCOTT:
16 I drove quite a ways
17 tonight. I guess about six hours.
18 This is from a news report that just
19 showed down in the Washington TV area.
20 VIDEO PRESENTATION
21 MS. PRESCOTT:
22 All right. So I'm going to
23 ahead and give my entire testimony,
24 but there's a copy in your packets.
25 And also, this is a report from the
10
01 Humane Society of the United States.
02 It's just mostly a web search which
03 reports game facilities that we've
04 found that will be affected by this
05 legislation. If you want to pass it
06 around and flip through it, feel free,
07 but that I'll probably want back if
08 that's okay.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 Yes. I'm not going to make
11 this part of the record because we pay
12 per word or something like that.
13 MS. PRESCOTT:
14 But I would like to say on
15 behalf of the Humane Society of the
16 United States, I would like to thank
17 Chairman Bruce Smith and the rest of
18 the representatives from the Committee
19 for holding a hearing on HB 2289 and
20 taking the issue of Canned Hunt
21 seriously.
22 The Humane Society of the
23 United States is the nation's largest
24 animal protection organization with
25 more than 9.5 million members and
11
01 constituents. Nearly 500,000
02 Pennsylvanians are members or
03 constituents which means one out of
04 every 25 households in Pennsylvania is
05 a member of the Humane Society of the
06 United States.
07 The HSUS is a mainstream
08 voice for animals with active programs
09 in companion animals, disaster
10 preparedness such as the rescue of
11 animals stranded after Hurricane
12 Katrina hit New Orleans, wildlife
13 habitat protection, marine mammals,
14 equine protection and farm animal
15 welfare.
16 A signature campaign and
17 major target for the HSUS is canned
18 hunts. Today, 22 states have fully or
19 partially banned canned hunts via
20 legislation or regulation. Some of
21 these states include Alabama,
22 Maryland, Virginia, Massachusetts,
23 Wyoming and Minnesota. And the report
24 that is included in your packet has a
25 compilation of all of the laws
12
01 affecting it.
02 Alabama lawmakers banned
03 canned hunts in March of this year.
04 Montana hunters led the charge to ban
05 canned hunts six years ago. Last
06 year, the Indiana Department of
07 Natural Resources passed regulations
08 that banned canned hunts and there are
09 still some problems with that in
10 looking at the way that they are going
11 to enforce the regulation. And then
12 the Vermont Department of Fish and
13 Game is currently working on canned
14 hunt regulations.
15 As you all know, momentum to
16 ban unethical hunting practices is
17 growing. To date, 23 states have
18 banned internet hunting including
19 Pennsylvania. And the hunting
20 community continues to take hits on
21 these types of egregious practices
22 such as internet hunting. And the
23 latest is the canned hunt tranquilizer
24 contest hunt. And these are practices
25 that are not supported by a majority
13
01 of hunting organizations. You just
02 Google them and see the debate on the
03 hunters' websites.
04 Canned hunts are advertised
05 under a variety of names. Most
06 frequently, hunting preserves, game
07 ranches or shooting preserves or fee
08 hunting. They can all be identified
09 by two traits they have in common.
10 They charge their clients a fee to
11 kill an animal and they violate the
12 generally accepted standards of the
13 hunting community based on the concept
14 of fair chase by fencing the animal
15 in.
16 Although some of larger
17 canned hunts try to establish wild
18 living populations, animals at canned
19 hunts are often bred animals as you
20 saw on the film. Sometimes they are
21 hand reared so they have no fear of
22 people and they've been released into
23 fenced enclosures to be shot by
24 clients who may pay thousands of
25 dollars. And they range from a few
14
01 acres to several hundred, but the size
02 of the enclosure makes little
03 difference.
04 An animal inside a fence
05 cannot escape. In ranches that have
06 been visited by investigators, animals
07 are baited and tracked to ensure a
08 guaranteed kill. The guide will often
09 take clients out in pickup trucks to a
10 blind near a feeding station perfectly
11 timed to match the animals' feeding
12 patterns. When the unsuspecting
13 animal comes to eat food like sugar
14 beets and hay, the client gets an easy
15 shot at close range. Animals can also
16 be herded toward the hunter to ensure
17 a kill.
18 Canned hunts present an
19 opportunity for animal protection
20 groups like the HSUS to join with
21 unlikely allies to oppose a practice
22 that is bad for animals and bad for
23 hunters. The Boone and Crockett Club
24 and the Pope and Young Club, which
25 maintain trophy records for big game
15
01 hunting, will not consider animals
02 shot at canned hunts for inclusions on
03 their record lists.
04 The motivation for canned
05 hunts may differ, but when animal
06 protection organizations and hunting
07 organizations alike oppose a practice,
08 it should send a strong message that
09 legislators should heed.
10 I have attended numerous
11 conferences on this topic and the
12 reasons that members of the hunting
13 community and wildlife management
14 field oppose canned hunting include
15 respect for fair chase, opposition to
16 the privatization of wildlife,
17 believing that that no one should own
18 wild animals. Concern that it gives
19 all hunting a bad image in the eyes of
20 the public that does not differentiate
21 hunting practices and opposition to
22 the slob nature of it.
23 And I'm not going to read
24 the next portion because I've attached
25 position statements in your packet,
16
01 again, from hunters, just again, going
02 through why hunters oppose this.
03 Because I know, obviously, I am
04 probably alone in my views here today.
05 But I would like to mention Jim
06 Posewitz who is an avid hunter and
07 also author of a book on hunting. He
08 speaks out against this at all, you
09 know, conferences. And his state,
10 Montana, was the first one to have a
11 hunter led ballot initiative that
12 ended up with canned hunts being
13 outlawed.
14 Because of our work on
15 canned hunts, we were invited by the
16 Wisconsin Department of Natural
17 Resources to give a speech at the
18 National Hunting Conferences for
19 Hunters which is the Governor's
20 Symposium on North American Hunting
21 Heritage. And I was invited to speak
22 because organizers have heard me
23 challenge hunters to move beyond
24 speaking about cleaning up their own
25 ranks and taking action and turning it
17
01 to action. And it led to a lot of
02 discussions afterward about where
03 could we put our differences aside and
04 work for the good of all wildlife,
05 including working against slob hunts.
06 And I know there's been some
07 fear expressed by supporters of canned
08 hunts that hunting will end tomorrow
09 if HB 2289 passes. This
10 fear-mongering should not fly since
11 the 22 states where canned hunts are
12 banned or regulated, the hunting
13 culture is still strong. In fact, it
14 has now been six years since Montana
15 banned the practice and it has not
16 affected hunting.
17 It's a focused bill, it
18 doesn't challenge Pennsylvania's
19 hunting heritage. And it doesn't
20 touch deer or elk propagation. There
21 are approximately 14 canned hunt
22 operations in Pennsylvania. And
23 again, they are detailed in the
24 booklet in front of you. And non-
25 native animals, again, can damage
18
01 native populations. I'm sure
02 everybody saw the news coverage
03 several years ago about the boar who
04 escaped in the Ebensburg area and
05 created a boar population outside of
06 the canned hunts.
07 So in closing, as much as
08 the Human Society of the United States
09 may differ with hunters on many
10 wildlife issues, contrary to what
11 supporters of canned hunts claim, this
12 is not an erosion of the hunting
13 heritage. In fact, many hunters
14 consider canned hunt regulations a
15 protection of hunting principles. The
16 general public sees canned hunts for
17 what they are, unsportsmanlike, unfair
18 and cruel. The HSUS sees canned hunts
19 as cruel practices and will continue
20 to work against them until they're
21 banned. We urge the Pennsylvania Game
22 and Fisheries Committee to lead the
23 way in Pennsylvania. And again, thank
24 you very much for allowing me to
25 testify.
19
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 Thank you, Heidi. Stay
03 there. Committee members may have
04 some questions for you. And I'll
05 start the questions. I think it
06 should be obvious to the audience and
07 it is obvious to Heidi that even
08 though she and I differ on some
09 subjects, I've always maintained an
10 open door for any organization as long
11 as I've been Chairman. So I loved
12 your one quote that in the states that
13 have passed the canned hunts, the
14 hunting culture is still strong. As
15 you and I know, hunting culture in
16 Pennsylvania is very strong.
17 I have two questions. One,
18 your video featured, what, the New
19 Jersey governor?
20 MS. PRESCOTT:
21 New Jersey Congress person.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 Congress person?
24 MS. PRESCOTT:
25 Yes, that was for the
20
01 Federal Legislation, I believe.
02 CHAIR SMITH:
03 I see. Because I knew it
04 was New Jersey and I didn't see that
05 New Jersey has passed a canned hunt
06 repeal.
07 MS. PRESCOTT:
08 Correct.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 Correct?
11 MS. PRESCOTT:
12 Let me grab my booklet.
13 Yes, you're correct.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 Okay. And I do want to
16 state for the record that the part
17 that you showed where the individual
18 was stabbing the boar, I felt was
19 repulsive and that wasn't in
20 Pennsylvania; was it?
21 MS. PRESCOTT:
22 I have no idea where that
23 was from. We often get footage from a
24 variety of sources including
25 undercover investigation.
21
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 And for the record, I want
03 everyone to know that I did invite
04 Representative Corrigan to be here to
05 testify and he initially accepted, but
06 then called me and said that he had a
07 previous commitment. But he was
08 elated that we were having a hearing
09 on the bill and I'm sure he
10 transmitted that information to you.
11 MS. PRESCOTT:
12 Thank you actually for
13 reminding me. I stopped by and saw
14 him today and he said to send his
15 thanks and encourage the committee to
16 please pass the legislation.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 Chairman Stabeck?
19 MEMBER STABECK:
20 Yes, thank you. Heidi, it's
21 certainly hard for me to believe that
22 everyone who hunts on a preserve acts
23 the way that these folks did on your
24 slide. I, too, find it repulsive that
25 someone would take to animal with a
22
01 knife and try to dispatch him in that
02 way.
03 The Bill you keep referring
04 to and you started a conversation out
05 in the hall earlier, you referred to
06 the Bill and everyone refers to the
07 Bill as a canned hunt bill. Yet there
08 is nothing in the language in the Bill
09 that refers to canned hunt period. It
10 does not refer to animals being hunted
11 in an enclosure which I consider, you
12 know, canned hunt. There's nothing in
13 here that refers to animals being tied
14 up or drugged or harvested in that
15 manner. What the bill simply says is
16 that it is unlawful to hunt, kill or
17 attempt to hunt or kill exotic
18 wildlife or domestic for a fee,
19 period. That's all.
20 Now, a question that came to
21 mind. Part of the animals that are
22 going to be protected that fall under
23 the definition of a domestic are pigs
24 and bovine cows; right? Let me ask
25 you this. In your view, if I was a
23
01 butcher or a pig farmer, cow farmer if
02 you will, and you came to me and you
03 said I want to purchase that animal,
04 that pig, and I'm going to pay you a
05 $100 to butcher that animal, to kill
06 the anima and process it. If I
07 accepted that, would I be in violation
08 of this law, if this was law?
09 MS. PRESCOTT:
10 I appreciate very much you
11 asking that question. And the intent
12 of the Bill is aimed at canned hunts
13 and as you know, as representatives,
14 you know there's probably a lot of
15 things you could do. This was run by
16 our attorney and actually we asked
17 similar questions to that and she said
18 no Judge in their right mind would
19 interpret the law that way.
20 MEMBER STABECK:
21 They wouldn't interpret.
22 MS. PRESCOTT:
23 No.
24 MEMBER STABECK:
25 Now let me tell you
24
01 something about Judges.
02 MS. PRESCOTT:
03 That's not where the law is
04 in this.
05 MEMBER STABECK:
06 Okay. It may not be the
07 intent, but that's what it says.
08 That's the way I'm interpreting this.
09 MS. PRESCOTT:
10 Hunting animals for a
11 fee ---.
12 MEMBER STABECK:
13 Well, it doesn't say
14 necessarily hunt. It says hunt or
15 kill. And that's what I'd be asking
16 the farm person to do, kill it,
17 process it. I will pay you a fee to
18 do that. And if he accepted that, in
19 my view, he would be violating --- if
20 this was in statute at the time, he
21 would be in violation of the law.
22 MS. PRESCOTT:
23 And again, I'd be happy to
24 have our attorney call you or if
25 there's a way that we could amend the
25
01 Bill to satisfy your concerns that
02 would exempt that practice, I would be
03 happy to work with you.
04 MEMBER STABECK:
05 Okay. That would be a good
06 effort.
07 CHAIR SMITH:
08 Okay. Representative
09 Pickett?
10 MEMBER PICKETT:
11 Heidi, thank you for
12 testifying. I, too, kind of caught up
13 on the position Representative Stabeck
14 is on right now. There was a flash on
15 the screen, I think, that said sold
16 for slaughter. And that would
17 certainly have to hit a lot of
18 operations that the animal is intended
19 to be grown for food and slaughtered
20 for food and somebody's going to get
21 paid to process that. It seems to be
22 threatened by this Bill.
23 MS. PRESCOTT:
24 Well, and again, if indeed
25 you're worried about the language
26
01 reading that way and, you know, our
02 attorneys have been over it quite a
03 few times with this exact type of
04 question. I would be happy to work
05 with the Representatives to amend it
06 to address that concern because that's
07 certainly not our intent.
08 MEMBER PICKETT:
09 I also want to say I
10 certainly know hundreds if not
11 thousands of hunters and I know them
12 to be extremely professional in what
13 they do and I can't imagine any of
14 them agreeing with many, many things
15 that were shown in that film tonight.
16 So, you know, there's obviously things
17 there that are very much against what
18 I think the hunting community believes
19 and expects in that sport.
20 MS. PRESCOTT:
21 And I so agree with you.
22 And I talked to somebody today who is
23 a retired game commissioner law
24 enforcement with the Pennsylvania Game
25 Commission who said, you know, I hope
27
01 that you pass this legislation because
02 this not anything that, you know,
03 hunters in Pennsylvania really
04 support.
05 And he talked about how you
06 don't need a hunting license and
07 things go on behind the fences that
08 would just appall the average
09 citizens, including hunters.
10 And then he also talked
11 about when they would bust spot
12 lighters, they would just say that
13 they were at a canned hunt facility
14 and that's where they got their
15 animals. And, you know, they knew
16 that these animals were being poached,
17 but because they had that excuse out
18 there and there's no regulation, that
19 their hands were often tied by these
20 facilities.
21 MEMBER PICKETT:
22 Did you mention Montana is
23 one of the states that had banned ---?
24 MS. PRESCOTT:
25 Yes.
28
01 MEMBER PICKETT:
02 Did they actually ban all
03 reserve hunting where thousand of
04 acres could be open?
05 MS. PRESCOTT:
06 Yes.
07 MEMBER PICKETT:
08 Do you know if an animal is
09 --- you mentioned them being tame and
10 that sort of thing. If we have a
11 reserve with thousands of acres that
12 are open for pay, for fee hunting type
13 thing, would the animals not maintain
14 a wild nature in that type of
15 environment?
16 MS. PRESCOTT:
17 Well, and again they could.
18 And many of the facilities in Texas
19 have just, you know, vast acreage.
20 But the animals still are often bought
21 from breeders so you still have
22 feeding patterns. You know, and I'm
23 not saying that it doesn't ever happen
24 that an established wild population
25 could, you know, maintain itself.
29
01 But, you know, for the most part when
02 you're talking about exotic animals,
03 they generally come from exotic
04 wildlife dealers. We didn't even go
05 into the whole topic of diseases that,
06 you know, could be brought into native
07 populations. And as I mentioned
08 earlier before, escaping from canned
09 hunts and doing, you know,
10 environmental damage.
11 MEMBER PICKETT:
12 Mr. Chairman, if I could, I
13 just have one more question.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 Certainly.
16 MEMBER PICKETT:
17 There were two Commonwealth
18 Court opinions in 2004 concerning a
19 lawsuit that was filed by the Fund for
20 Animals against the Pennsylvania Game
21 Commission and that was regarding the
22 activities of the Tioga Boar Hunt
23 Reserve. That was not what we saw on
24 that screen; correct?
25 MS. PRESCOTT:
30
01 The very first part of the
02 news coverage was.
03 MEMBER PICKETT:
04 Was that Tioga?
05 MS. PRESCOTT:
06 I unfortunately started it
07 right after they announced the name of
08 the facility.
09 MEMBER PICKETT:
10 Okay. Both of these
11 opinions were decided in favor of the
12 Pennsylvania Game Commission. Do you
13 know the status of the case at this
14 point?
15 MS. PRESCOTT:
16 It's pending before the
17 Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
18 MEMBER PICKETT:
19 Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
20 Chairman.
21 CHAIR SMITH:
22 Representative Sonney?
23 MEMBER SONNEY:
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 That was a very good testimony.
31
01 MS. PRESCOTT:
02 Thank you.
03 MEMBER SONNEY:
04 Do you personally visit any
05 of these sites?
06 MS. PRESCOTT:
07 No, I have not. I'd be more
08 than happy to.
09 MEMBER SONNEY:
10 So you really don't know how
11 many of those sites have exotic
12 animals?
13 MS. PRESCOTT:
14 According to this book here,
15 14 of them have exotic animals.
16 MEMBER SONNEY:
17 According to the book, 14
18 sites?
19 MS. PRESCOTT:
20 Fourteen (14) sites that
21 have exotic animals. And these are
22 all websites from advertisements from
23 the specific canned hunts.
24 MEMBER SONNEY:
25 But you have no firsthand
32
01 experience at all on any?
02 MS. PRESCOTT:
03 No.
04 MEMBER SONNEY:
05 Any of the Pennsylvania
06 sites?
07 MS. PRESCOTT:
08 No.
09 MEMBER SONNEY:
10 Thank you.
11 MS. PRESCOTT:
12 You're welcome.
13 CHAIR SMITH:
14 And two follow-up questions.
15 If a facility simply had deer, would
16 this law be applicable?
17 MS. PRESCOTT:
18 No, it would not.
19 CHAIR SMITH:
20 It would not?
21 MS. PRESCOTT:
22 No.
23 CHAIR SMITH:
24 Just exotic?
25 MS. PRESCOTT:
33
01 Just exotics.
02 CHAIR SMITH:
03 All right. And secondly, do
04 you have a particular --- in looking
05 at the Bill, in other words, it
06 doesn't matter the size of the
07 facility, the Bill would still outlaw
08 quote, canned hunts, unquote?
09 MS. PRESCOTT:
10 Correct.
11 CHAIR SMITH:
12 Okay.
13 MS. PRESCOTT:
14 Yes. That's why it was
15 drafted that way
16 CHAIR SMITH:
17 Does that relate also to the
18 fact that there could be some very
19 large --- in fact, the Committee, a
20 number of years ago, visited a
21 facility in conjunction with another
22 bill. I can't remember what bill we
23 were doing at the time. It was a very
24 large facility, but it did have deer.
25 So it doesn't matter what size, it
34
01 would be outlawed?
02 MS. PRESCOTT:
03 Right. But if it was just
04 deer, it wouldn't be outlawed.
05 CHAIR SMITH:
06 Okay.
07 MS. PRESCOTT:
08 Or elk.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 All right. Thank you for
11 driving so far and for your testimony.
12 MS. PRESCOTT:
13 Thank you very much.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 All right. The next
16 individual who is going to testify for
17 his organization is Ralph Saggiomo
18 from the Unified Sportsmen. You're
19 not president this year?
20 MR. SAGGIOMO:
21 No, I'm not.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 Retired president, may I say
24 that? Is that right? Retired
25 president?
35
01 MR. SAGGIOMO:
02 Yes. I have these to
03 distribute.
04 CHAIR SMITH:
05 Okay. Ralph, you may
06 proceed.
07 MR. SAGGIOMO:
08 My name is Ralph A. Saggiomo
09 of Sayre, Pennsylvania in Bradford
10 County. I represent the Unified
11 Sportsmen of Pennsylvania which
12 comprises more than 25,000 individual
13 members statewide.
14 Good evening, Chairman
15 Smith, Committee members and welcome
16 to beautiful Bradford County, the
17 jewel of the Endless Mountains. Thank
18 you to Representative Pickett for
19 having this Committee here. We really
20 appreciate it.
21 The Unified Sportsmen of
22 Pennsylvania are strongly opposed to
23 House Bill 2289 related to so-called
24 canned hunts. Sorry to bring that up
25 Representative Stabeck. It's not in
36
01 there, but it seems to be tagged along
02 with the Bill and I picked that up.
03 Sorry about that. Our position is
04 based on numerous reasons.
05 Passage of HB 2289 will
06 effectively close down all shooting
07 preserves in Pennsylvania whether it
08 be now or in the future.
09 The financial incentives of
10 operating shooting preserves are not
11 based on just deer and elk. Without
12 harvesting goats, hogs, sheep,
13 preserves would not be profitable
14 business for most operators.
15 The financial ramifications
16 of shooting preserves is that it is a
17 very large business in Pennsylvania
18 providing many jobs and financial
19 incentives for rural areas of the
20 state, which we all well know are
21 already in the old remote areas that
22 could use some shot in the arm.
23 Preserves are a recognized form of
24 farming where operators maintain and
25 market products at a higher income
37
01 than can be obtained by selling the
02 same animals for meat at slaughter
03 houses. We urge you to maintain
04 farming as farming where the process
05 of marketing animals for food and
06 recreation is as humane as it is in
07 slaughter houses. The concepts of
08 farming, farm profit and recreation to
09 thousands should not be minimized.
10 All animals harvested on
11 preserves are destined for an abattoir
12 one way or another, either by farmers
13 themselves or by recreationists. The
14 concept of harvesting animals for
15 recreation and food has statutorial
16 standing in Pennsylvania.
17 We are unaware of how many
18 shooting preserves there are in this
19 state and what financial contribution
20 they contribute to the economy by the
21 way of jobs, income and tax revenue.
22 And also a spin off for people
23 visiting those areas. We believe that
24 if the Committee was aware of the
25 large farming interests that operate
38
01 shooting preserves and the income
02 derived from these operations, that
03 this Bill would never reach this stage
04 of a hearing. We want to repeat that
05 there is more financial income derived
06 from recreational preserves than if
07 these animals were to be sold at an
08 auction.
09 Thousand of residents
10 participate in recreational preserves
11 every year. Bear in mind that this
12 type of recreation is conducted in a
13 responsible, humane manner and serves
14 a worthy farming operation.
15 Again, thank you very much.
16 It was a pleasure to here and for this
17 opportunity to present. Hopefully I
18 can answer your questions as best I
19 can. And if I cannot, I will get back
20 to you the information that you so
21 desire.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 Thank you for your
24 testimony, Ralph. I think that you've
25 brought some items to our attention
39
01 that are very important. About the
02 impact on the local community in
03 dollars and we're going to have
04 somebody testify from the community
05 later on. Two things, have you ever
06 individually participated in quote,
07 canned hunt?
08 MR. SAGGIOMO:
09 Yes, I have, sir.
10 CHAIR SMITH:
11 You have?
12 MR. SAGGIOMO:
13 Yes.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 Would you describe it?
16 MR. SAGGIOMO:
17 Yes, sir. It basically was
18 a gift from my family. I did
19 participate in it. I had a wonderful
20 experience. It would not have made
21 that tape, that's for sure. It was
22 adventurous, I enjoyed every minute of
23 it. The comradery that I spent
24 --- even though my family did purchase
25 it for me as a gift, I went with my
40
01 family there and the comoradery that I
02 spent there amongst the people and the
03 people that functioned at this
04 preserve that the providers were very
05 gracious, very humane, very helpful.
06 And I would have to say that in the
07 process, getting back to the financial
08 aspects of it, I think that the
09 community as a whole, because we
10 stayed overnight, we spent three or
11 four days in this very rural area and
12 spent some of our dollars and I'm sure
13 that is the spin off that I was trying
14 to say that I personally experienced.
15 Getting to other preserves, we
16 also ---.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 Stay on this one for a
19 second.
20 MR. SAGGIOMO:
21 Okay.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 And I want the record to
24 reflect, you and I didn't converse
25 beforehand ---
41
01 MR. SAGGIOMO:
02 No.
03 CHAIR SMITH:
04 --- so I didn't know how you
05 were going to answer.
06 MR. SAGGIOMO:
07 None of my presentation was
08 ever preempted by formal --- in front
09 of you ever over all of these years.
10 CHAIR SMITH:
11 I know that, but I want the
12 audience to know. Secondly, was it in
13 Pennsylvania and what was the animal?
14 MR. SAGGIOMO:
15 The animal that I was
16 harvested was a Dall Ram and it was in
17 Pennsylvania, yes.
18 CHAIR SMITH:
19 All right. Proceed with
20 what I interrupted you.
21 MR. SAGGIOMO:
22 Where was I?
23 CHAIR SMITH:
24 You were talking about other
25 preserves.
42
01 MR. SAGGIOMO:
02 Yes, other preserves I've
03 been to, of course, I've been hunting
04 since 1946 and I grew up in the
05 pheasant and rabbit era. And where I
06 really got my teeth and spent the
07 years and when the so-called demise or
08 reduction in the pheasants went on, I
09 had went to pheasant preserves over
10 the years. I still do that today and
11 it is a preserve. If you want to call
12 it canned hunting or whatever it is.
13 It's very much enjoyable with our dogs
14 and with my family. And everything's
15 done very humanely. I can buy chicken
16 much cheaper, but it's a good, true
17 family oriented hunt and a sport and
18 that's another preserve I've been to.
19 CHAIR SMITH:
20 Thank you, Ralph. Chairman
21 Stabeck?
22 MEMBER STABECK:
23 Yes, thank you, Bruce.
24 Ralph, in reading the Bill, I think
25 one of the key phrases is the phrase
43
01 wild state. And as the Bill reads now
02 in paragraph B with the taking of
03 exotic wildlife or domestic animals
04 that paragraph shall not prohibit the
05 taking of any game or furbearer in its
06 wild state or under the authority of a
07 permit issued by the Game Commission.
08 Now what do you believe to be the term
09 wild state? How would you define
10 that?
11 MR. SAGGIOMO:
12 That is another vague open
13 ended Pandora's Box.
14 MEMBER STABECK:
15 Let me ask you this.
16 MR. SAGGIOMO:
17 Okay.
18 MEMBER STABECK:
19 Can an area that is
20 confined, fenced in, yet it's a 1,000,
21 1,500, 2,000, 3,000 acres, can that be
22 --- an animals are roaming free within
23 that space. Could that be considered
24 a wild state?
25 MR. SAGGIOMO:
44
01 My personal opinion on that?
02 MEMBER STABECK:
03 Yes.
04 MR. SAGGIOMO:
05 Depends on the individual.
06 How they conceive that. You know, if
07 someone looks at a small area, more
08 people will conceive that as not being
09 in a wild state. As it grows larger,
10 less and less people will fall off on
11 that. But you will still have that
12 percentage, what it is I do not know,
13 will say there is a fence there and a
14 barrier so it's not a wild state.
15 It's perception. All depends whose ox
16 is being bored and that's the way I
17 perceive it in my unprofessional
18 observation.
19 MEMBER STABECK:
20 But you believe the majority
21 of people would probably believe that
22 so long as there is an enclosure? Any
23 type of enclosure. It wouldn't make a
24 difference how many acres were
25 enclosed? That would not be
45
01 considered wild?
02 MR. SAGGIOMO:
03 That would be my perception,
04 depending on the individual.
05 MEMBER STABECK:
06 Okay.
07 MR. SAGGIOMO:
08 And like I said, when you
09 brought up the analogy of Judges
10 being, to the degree of their
11 interpretation, that perception comes
12 in also. With Judges or the general
13 public. Hopefully I answered you to
14 your satisfaction.
15 MEMBER STABECK:
16 You did. Thank you.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 Representative Pickett?
19 MEMBER PICKETT:
20 Thank you for being here
21 tonight, Ralph. We appreciate it very
22 much. In listening to some of your
23 testimony, I certainly appreciate your
24 points here. They seem to match the
25 things I know about sportsmen in this
46
01 area. And since you have been
02 involved in some of the hunts,
03 traditionally is the meat used?
04 MR. SAGGIOMO:
05 Yes.
06 MEMBER PICKETT:
07 Okay. So it's not just a
08 trophy hunt and walk on the rest of
09 the animal?
10 MR. SAGGIOMO:
11 No, it is all processed, it
12 was used. The spin off to butchers,
13 to taxidermists, it's easy to spin
14 off. You go into quite a bit of
15 expenditures in the rural community.
16 And the smoking of the meat if it
17 should be an animal that would be
18 smoked or the processing. I don't
19 want to go into that area.
20 MEMBER PICKETT:
21 Okay.
22 MR. SAGGIOMO:
23 But I just wanted to
24 emphasize the rural communities that
25 so need some type of income that will
47
01 suffer immensely.
02 MEMBER PICKETT:
03 I sort of know the value of
04 the hunters --- hunters first hand and
05 our economy. Also I'm wondering a
06 little bit, we have land owners who
07 lease land for a fee for people to be
08 able to hunt on them. Is this
09 threatening that in any way?
10 MR. SAGGIOMO:
11 The way I read this Bill, it
12 doesn't at this time. You know, what
13 can be a so-called foot in the door
14 syndrome, I don't know. But I would
15 have to say, no, this doesn't read
16 into that. I would believe the
17 Chairman of this Committee would have
18 to say the same thing. It doesn't
19 affect that at this tenure. But I
20 don't know what Pandora's Box holds.
21 MEMBER PICKETT:
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIR SMITH:
24 Representative Sonney?
25 MEMBER SONNEY:
48
01 Thank you, Ralph, for being
02 here and your testimony. I'd like to
03 go back a little bit about your
04 hunting. Did your family purchase a
05 specific animal for you to hunt or did
06 they purchase a dollar amount for you
07 to use to hunt or how did that work?
08 MR. SAGGIOMO:
09 No, they did not. They more
10 or less left it up to my discretion.
11 Even if I did not want to. They left
12 it to my discretion.
13 MEMBER SONNEY:
14 And did you, similar to what
15 we saw in the video, --- when were you
16 told what the animal was going to cost
17 you?
18 MR. SAGGIOMO:
19 I don't know even know what
20 it cost.
21 CHAIR SMITH:
22 That's a good gift.
23 MR. SAGGIOMO:
24 I don't even know what it
25 cost. My children took care of that.
49
01 I didn't see the check being written
02 or the money changing hands or
03 whatever. They left it up to my
04 discretion. And if I did not
05 want ---.
06 MEMBER SONNEY:
07 That's the same with the
08 type of animal? I mean, you picked
09 the type of animal?
10 MR. SAGGIOMO:
11 Yes, I did.
12 MEMBER SONNEY:
13 And how many ---?
14 MR. SAGGIOMO:
15 As you were hunting through
16 the preserve ---.
17 MEMBER SONNEY:
18 So you were obviously
19 witnessing many different types of
20 animals on the preserve?
21 MR. SAGGIOMO:
22 Yes, some at close range,
23 some at far range. You know what I
24 mean, out in the ---
25 MEMBER SONNEY:
50
01 Several species?
02 MR. SAGGIOMO:
03 --- out circles. Yes, I did
04 see several species there. Some that
05 I was not interested in.
06 MEMBER SONNEY:
07 And that particular farm,
08 did they also have white-tailed deer
09 on that farm?
10 MR. SAGGIOMO:
11 I did not see any. There
12 may be.
13 MEMBER SONNEY:
14 Or elk?
15 MR. SAGGIOMO:
16 I did see elk in the brush,
17 yes, back in. I did see elk.
18 MEMBER SONNEY:
19 Okay. Thanks.
20 MR. SAGGIOMO:
21 You're welcome.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 Ralph, thank you very much
24 for your testimony.
25 MR. SAGGIOMO:
51
01 Thank you for giving me the
02 opportunity.
03 CHAIR SMITH:
04 Next individual to testify
05 us Pete Gee, Tioga Wild Boar Preserve.
06 MR. PETER GEE:
07 Chairman and the Committee,
08 I sure thank you for the opportunity
09 to speak. I'll be very short and very
10 brief.
11 CHAIR SMITH:
12 You may come up front. You
13 might be more relaxed than standing
14 there.
15 MR. PETER GEE:
16 It doesn't matter.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 You can tell I'm a former
19 English teacher. I try to get my
20 students to relax.
21 MR. PETER GEE:
22 I got you. I was very much
23 disappointed with the video and two of
24 my sons are here also to testify so I
25 won't take up none of your time. But
52
01 I will tell you two very important
02 things. Anything on that video that's
03 in Tioga is a lie. That is not Tioga.
04 What they put together, there is
05 nothing on there, if you want to go to
06 court or go to hell or go to heaven,
07 that's not Tioga. We don't do it that
08 way. I've been in business of hunting
09 for 41 years. I take a lot of pride
10 in my business. What Ralph says, a
11 lot of our money pours back into the
12 community that's for sure.
13 We have a total of nine
14 employees. We're very proud of them.
15 Nobody's taken off the streets,
16 they're all professionally trained.
17 We hunt on a professional basis. And
18 I'm thankful for one thing, and I will
19 rat on him, Ralph hunted at Tioga and
20 I'm very proud to have him. He didn't
21 say it, but he has nothing to hide and
22 neither do I.
23 But the hunting business and
24 the business as a whole is entirely
25 what Ralph says is how the world makes
53
01 it. You can hunt as hard as you want
02 to. We have 1,550 acres, seven mile
03 hunting. He said he saw stuff way off
04 in a distant area. We hunt different
05 from all the rest which makes it
06 really important. I don't guarantee
07 no kills. I hate cans. I even hate
08 the statement of cans because the
09 hunter hunts as long as he wants to,
10 takes whatever he wants to. If he
11 don't get anything, he doesn't pay
12 anything. We feed them good, treat
13 them good. As a whole operation, as I
14 said, I've been 41 years and I believe
15 we're the biggest --- I know we're the
16 biggest in Pennsylvania and biggest in
17 a lot of other states.
18 As far as the Humane
19 Society, there was in Pennsylvania,
20 there was in Tioga County. There's a
21 couple of other places and I know one
22 of them is --- five, six years, seven
23 years ago went out of business. They
24 came to our place and I interviewed
25 them, they came in, wanted to know how
54
01 we run and if they could go on a hunt.
02 Well I was glad of that because I said
03 you sure can. Three out of the five
04 hunters that we had that day just came
05 in from the woods. I haven't talked
06 to them, here's the hunters, you talk
07 to them. Ask them anything you want
08 to ask because I'm not embarrassed or
09 ashamed of our way of hunting and the
10 way we do business. You ask them, the
11 three. One's still in the woods and
12 this was 2:30 in the afternoon. They
13 went out at a quarter to 7:00. They
14 said yes, are you going on a hunt?
15 They said we don't know. I want to
16 ask you a question, would you invite
17 us to go? He said yes, but I first do
18 advise you to get some flashlights
19 because you're not going to do it in a
20 couple of hours. Well they went on a
21 normal hunt and from that day forward
22 to this day, I've never heard nothing
23 from the Humane Society.
24 I think we have a good
25 record. I'm not saying that we don't
55
01 make mistakes once in awhile, but as a
02 big organization, good for the hunters
03 and respected from the Sportsmen
04 Organization and all over. And we're
05 respected by a lot of you
06 Representatives.
07 We have a lot of people
08 hunt. Today, for instance, we had two
09 straight from Israel. They came
10 yesterday. They got one boar today
11 and I don't know how they'll make out,
12 but they don't know when they're going
13 back to Israel. So we have hunters
14 from all over the world. I think it's
15 great that we can have them and bring
16 them in not only to bring them into of
17 the community, but they go other
18 places. Like the actor Burt Reynolds,
19 he was in Tioga. And then he went to
20 Wellsboro, went all over. So the
21 gospel spreads.
22 One thing I wanted to bring
23 to you is like you people do and I'm
24 proud of you, you do a good job. We
25 wanted to do a good job and we don't
56
01 want to do it in a way the Humane
02 Society takes the pictures. And they
03 were not taken at Tioga. So I expect
04 to live another 100 years to continue
05 working for you good people and to
06 continue doing a good job at hunting.
07 And I think Ralph and all the rest of
08 the sporting organization and the Game
09 Commission did a good job. Good job
10 with respect to us. Now I do know
11 that the Game Commission respects us
12 as number one, the National Rifle
13 Association respects us as number one,
14 and to try to keep it that way. I'll
15 answer any of your questions.
16 CHAIR SMITH:
17 Now, I'm a little confused.
18 Is Michael going to testify on behalf
19 of your business?
20 MR. PETER GEE:
21 Yes.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 I'd rather he and you
24 testify and then have questions so
25 that we don't have a duplication.
57
01 MR. PETER GEE:
02 That's fine.
03 CHAIR SMITH:
04 So Michael if you'd come up
05 please. And Pete, you can just sit
06 down and relax and let Michael make
07 his presentation.
08 MR. PETER GEE:
09 Sure.
10 CHAIR SMITH:
11 You don't have a video; do
12 you?
13 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
14 No.
15 CHAIR SMITH:
16 Michael, you may proceed.
17 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
18 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
19 the members of the House of Game and
20 Fisheries Committee for this
21 opportunity to speak at your public
22 hearing regarding House Bill 2289. My
23 name is Michael Gee and I'm speaking
24 on behalf of the Tioga Boar Hunting
25 Preserve located in Tioga,
58
01 Pennsylvania.
02 Unfortunately, with mention
03 of hunting preserves or hunting
04 ranches, ones who are unfamiliar with
05 this aspect of hunting have misguided
06 views on the Hunting Ranch Industry
07 Organizations such as the Fund for
08 Animals and the Humane Society of the
09 United States spend countless amounts
10 of dollars to sway the opinions of the
11 American public for the benefit of
12 their campaign against animal cruelty.
13 The truth being that hunting
14 preserves and ranches are farming
15 operations that provide a way of
16 living in rural areas of Pennsylvania
17 and rural America as well. These
18 family farming operations are
19 considered a way of alternative
20 farming for many Americans. These
21 establishments provide a means to
22 prevent family owned farm lands from
23 being sold off and to maintain badly
24 needed jobs in rural America.
25 Consequently, the only difference
59
01 between hunting ranches and other
02 agricultural operation is that the
03 hunting ranched and preserves harvest
04 animals on their private lands.
05 Whereas other agricultural businesses
06 ship their animals to market to be
07 processed. No matter what the Humane
08 Society of the United States would
09 like the public to believe, all
10 animals raised on farming operations
11 face the same end results whether they
12 are exotic or domestic as defined in
13 the House Bill 2289.
14 Family owned and privately
15 owned hunting preserves and ranches
16 truly stand as a part of farming
17 industry. As stated in a July 2006
18 issue of Lancaster Farming, when we
19 talk about small business owners being
20 the backbone of our economy, we too
21 often forget that some of the best
22 examples of small business
23 entrepreneurship are in the 52,000
24 farm families that live and work
25 throughout the Commonwealth of
60
01 Pennsylvania. Tioga Township, like
02 many rural townships in Pennsylvania,
03 has no industry to offer its
04 residents. Hunting ranches, such as
05 Tioga Boar Hunting Preserve, provide
06 desperately needed jobs. And by
07 attracting national and international
08 customers to the area, bring in
09 outside revenue into our local
10 economy.
11 No disrespect to
12 Representative Corrigan who introduced
13 House Bill 2289, but it is my hope
14 that extensive research has been done
15 regarding the negative economic impact
16 this Bill could have on rural
17 communities of Pennsylvania. I hope
18 this Bill was not written as a result
19 of lobbying pressure to appease the
20 Humane Society of the United States.
21 The Fund for Animals and the
22 Humane Society of the United States
23 are incredibly skilled at twisting and
24 distorting information and events to
25 gain backing and support from their
61
01 members. For example, articles posted
02 on the Humane Society website link
03 events tying both President Bush and
04 Vice President Cheney to canned hunts.
05 Animal rights activists have devised
06 the term canned hunts to describe
07 hunting ranches and preserves. These
08 tactics help such organizations gain
09 momentum in pressing for legislation
10 in instances such as House Bill 2289.
11 Which in effect, the
12 ideology of a select few members of
13 the Humane Society is being used to
14 assist in writing legislation that can
15 dictate the lives of farming families
16 throughout the United States. Those
17 members like Johnna Seeton and Heidi
18 Prescott bring up examples of animal
19 cruelty which supposedly happened on
20 hunting operations. Unfortunately,
21 there is unethical operations in every
22 fraction of American business and
23 industry. Therefore, legislation
24 should not be written to terminate
25 those complete industries, but any
62
01 dishonest or unethical business should
02 be handled as individual cases. Why
03 should hunting preserves be treated
04 differently?
05 The Humane Society and the
06 Fund for Animals overlook the fact
07 that thousands of animals are killed,
08 maimed, suffer needlessly after being
09 hit by vehicles on our public roads
10 and highways. If Heidi Prescott, who
11 is a paid lobbyist for the Humane
12 Society and Johnna Seeton who is
13 strongly involved with the Fund for
14 Animals and the Humane Society, and if
15 over 9 million members of these
16 organizations are truly sincere about
17 ending animal cruelty in order to save
18 thousands animals and domestic pets'
19 lives, they should stop driving.
20 Realistically, this is not
21 going to happen. As this situation
22 would directly affect their lives. It
23 is easier for them to head a campaign
24 to take away the livelihood of farming
25 families throughout the United States
63
01 to right their cause.
02 In conclusion, please
03 support Tioga Boar Hunting Preserve
04 and other alternative farming
05 operations throughout the Commonwealth
06 of Pennsylvania by not passing the
07 House Bill 2289.
08 CHAIR SMITH:
09 Okay. Thank you, Michael
10 and Pete for your testimonies. I only
11 have a couple of questions. Number
12 one, how do you advertise your
13 facility that you'd get somebody from
14 Israel?
15 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
16 Throughout sporting
17 magazines all over the world. This
18 individual actually was a bow hunter
19 and we advertise in a lot of national
20 bow hunting magazines. Actually, this
21 is his second visit to Tioga. And
22 this gentleman, he's a hunter and he's
23 hunted all over the world, from
24 African game to you name it. And it's
25 pretty impressive to have a second
64
01 trip back to Tioga.
02 CHAIR SMITH:
03 And would you describe a
04 typical hunt?
05 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
06 We start early in the
07 morning and all of our hunting areas
08 along mountainous, big timber hunting
09 areas. And we start out just like
10 you'd hunt deer in Pennsylvania. We
11 vary our methods of hunting according
12 to the weather situations, the weapon
13 hunters are using. From spot and
14 stock to still hunting, they use
15 ladder stands and all of these trips
16 are fully guided. They'll have a
17 professional there with them for
18 hunting safety and we hunt throughout
19 the day. This is a hunting business
20 so we bring them out of the woods and
21 feed them very well at noon time.
22 Give them a little rest and then we go
23 back at it and hunt until dark. And
24 there is no limit on the days they can
25 hunt. From one day to a week.
65
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 But you don't hunt after
03 dark?
04 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
05 No.
06 CHAIR SMITH:
07 Okay. I was a little
08 confused with Pete's statement.
09 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
10 No, we do not hunt after
11 dark. And none of these animals and
12 incidents that you see on this film
13 did not come from Tioga Hunting
14 Preserve.
15 MR. PETER GEE:
16 This is the man who was
17 taking longer than a couple three
18 hours.
19 CHAIR SMITH:
20 Right. If you have seven
21 miles.
22 MR. PETER GEE:
23 They wanted to go 15 minutes
24 and see the gate and let them outside
25 and it doesn't work that way.
66
01 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
02 And these folks that just
03 left today that were from Israel, they
04 spent a couple of days in our area,
05 ate at different restaurants. It's a
06 big income and boost for our economy.
07 CHAIR SMITH:
08 And is the charge per animal
09 or how does that work?
10 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
11 Yes, they got a wild boar
12 and that was $575. It's just like you
13 would book a hunt in Montana. You're
14 going to pay, if that trip's for seven
15 days, you're going to pay $2,000.
16 There's no guarantee they're going to
17 get an animal, but we try our best.
18 CHAIR SMITH:
19 And how many animals do you
20 have and where do you get them?
21 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
22 We have probably 200 head of
23 animals on our hunting preserve. And
24 we have enough area that a lot of
25 animals are raised in our hunting
67
01 preserve.
02 CHAIR SMITH:
03 So it's self sustaining?
04 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
05 What's that? It is to a
06 certain point. We bring some boar out
07 of Georgia that are trapped and
08 brought in. They're all tested
09 according to state regs and brought in
10 and they are released into our hunting
11 areas. Not as the hunters are there
12 to see it, but when we bring them
13 they're gone and they could be there
14 from one week to three, four years at
15 a time or they're harvested.
16 CHAIR SMITH:
17 And what's the requirement
18 regarding fencing so that they don't
19 get into the wild?
20 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
21 All fencing has to be ten
22 foot high.
23 CHAIR SMITH:
24 Say again?
25 MR. PETER GEE:
68
01 Woven wire.
02 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
03 Woven wire, ten foot high.
04 MR. PETER GEE:
05 Back to the rest of your
06 answer and what you're looking for is
07 that the young lady from the Humane
08 Society testified it comes from zoos
09 and parks. Ours does not come from
10 zoos and parks. They come straight
11 off of big ranches.
12 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
13 Some of the rams come out of
14 Texas. It varies state to state. So
15 we're lucky we have a big enough area
16 so they're producing there.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 Chairman Stabeck?
19 MEMBER STABECK:
20 Gentlemen, when you book a
21 hunt, someone signs up to hunt a
22 specific species. Is that species
23 already roaming free in your natural
24 area?
25 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
69
01 Yes.
02 MEMBER STABECK:
03 So it's not something you go
04 out and stock?
05 MR. PETER GEE:
06 They never see nothing
07 unloaded from the trucks. Which
08 they're loaded into a barn down the
09 chute and one thing we do, if anything
10 in there was, like you got to get to
11 know your animals like a baker knows a
12 loaf of bread. You know, if he has
13 one ear down or something, we might
14 pull him aside to a smaller stall and
15 reach over ---. You have to humanely
16 treat your animals before he goes to
17 the woods and then they go right on
18 out. And that's the one thing, the
19 hunters can't come and say well I saw
20 it in a pen or I saw it by the fence.
21 We don't do that at all. They're
22 gone, they're in their wild state
23 right back into it. They should see,
24 say 50 animals a day, they should see.
25 Ralph can probably verify that, too.
70
01 At least that many, but just like I
02 heard him say, some of them will be
03 half, three quarters of a mile away.
04 They'll never see that animal again.
05 MEMBER STABECK:
06 So you're looking at a mix
07 of animals?
08 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
09 Yes.
10 MEMBER STABECK:
11 Not a specific species in a
12 given section of the property?
13 MR. PETER GEE:
14 No, it's all in one big
15 area. And virtually you can tell the
16 truth because of some of the hunters
17 like last week, they gave up. They
18 spent three days for the wild boar.
19 And one out of that three, he had saw
20 a boar, but he didn't get anything.
21 He went home without one and that's
22 why I say we do it, we guarantee they
23 hunt as long as they want or we can
24 treat them to the fair chase for the
25 animal, they don't get it, we shake
71
01 their hand because they're probably
02 going to advertise us as much as Ralph
03 did when he got one.
04 MEMBER STABECK:
05 What is your success rate
06 would you say?
07 MR. PETER GEE:
08 About 90 percent.
09 MEMBER STABECK:
10 Ninety (90) percent?
11 MR. PETER GEE:
12 Yes.
13 MEMBER STABECK:
14 That's of all species?
15 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
16 Yes.
17 MR. PETER GEE:
18 Yes.
19 MEMBER STABECK:
20 Or are you talking just
21 boar?
22 MR. PETER GEE:
23 Yes.
24 MEMBER STABECK:
25 If this Bill would somehow
72
01 pass into law, could you adapt your
02 business accordingly or would this
03 hurt you financially or would you have
04 to ride it out?
05 MR. PETER GEE:
06 It would hurt. Like I said,
07 41 years of me being in business, I
08 got a big heart, no money, a lot of
09 animals and a lot of land. And I
10 think that's the way I leave it for
11 boys because we couldn't operate 60
12 days ---.
13 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
14 It's just like most farming
15 operations. If you have a beef farm,
16 we can't have, you know, ten animals.
17 MEMBER STABECK:
18 Now for all the years you've
19 been in business, some 41 years, have
20 you ever experienced protests at your
21 premises or people calling you on the
22 phone or writing letters?
23 MR. PETER GEE:
24 Many years ago, Mr.
25 Chairman, we did a little bit, but
73
01 anymore, it went by the wayside. We
02 didn't have to clean up our act. One
03 thing we did was hire the Game
04 Commission and when I started out I
05 had six foot fence because that's all
06 you had to have. Well then we had
07 trouble with some of the animals
08 jumping out and many were out at Tioga
09 College and Ponderosa or the prison
10 because we got good fences and the
11 animals aren't coming out. The other
12 angle is so the coyote can't get in,
13 the foxes can't get in.
14 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
15 Any protests that we had
16 mostly in the past are at sports
17 shows. Not really on the property.
18 MEMBER STABECK:
19 It wouldn't be a fair
20 statement on my part to say that for
21 the past several years you have not
22 experienced any protests, any problems
23 with the public?
24 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
25 No.
74
01 MEMBER STABECK:
02 One hundred (100) percent?
03 MR. PETER GEE:
04 Certainly. And if it was
05 any kind of a protest, you know, we
06 take care of it immediately. Most of
07 the protests would be, God bless UPS,
08 when we ship mounted heads, you know,
09 a horn got broke or something.
10 Nothing on the hunting.
11 MEMBER STABECK:
12 Thank you. And that's what
13 I'm getting at. No protesting to
14 hunting?
15 MR. PETER GEE:
16 No, sir.
17 MEMBER STABECK:
18 Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. PETER GEE:
20 You're welcome.
21 CHAIR SMITH:
22 Representative Pickett?
23 MEMBER PICKETT:
24 Just something quick, Mr.
25 Chairman. One of the things I noted
75
01 in your testimony that kind of turned
02 things around for me a little bit in
03 the way things get worded, we kind of
04 heard on the video conversation about
05 an animal being guaranteed and that
06 almost made it sound like there's
07 absolutely nothing to this.
08 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
09 We don't really guarantee
10 animals. We kind of make an income
11 too because we provide lodging, food,
12 stuff like that. So we go out to
13 hunt, you know, and it's not a
14 guarantee that you're going to get
15 that animal.
16 MR. PETER GEE:
17 It's a fair chase, like I
18 said. Our guarantee is they can hunt
19 as long as they want, take whatever
20 they want, not a guarantee. If they
21 don't get anything, they don't pay
22 anything.
23 MEMBER PICKETT:
24 Which is the obvious proof
25 of that situation.
76
01 MR. PETER GEE:
02 Yes.
03 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
04 Some of these animals could
05 be there three, four years or compared
06 to the, like, Pennsylvania deer. Most
07 Pennsylvanian deer live to 18 months
08 when they're harvested.
09 MEMBER PICKETT:
10 The wild ones?
11 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
12 In the wild.
13 MEMBER PICKETT:
14 Okay. Interesting point.
15 Also, I took note of shall I say the
16 younger Mr. Gee, Michael, your comment
17 here that, I don't care what the
18 industry is, what the business is,
19 there's always somebody who doesn't
20 follow the law, the rules or the good
21 taste of the whole thing. And your
22 commented of let's not kill an entire
23 industry for the sake of somebody who
24 needs to be correct or taken care of
25 because they have not performed
77
01 properly, I think it's heart warming
02 to hear that the community and the
03 county and the general area ---.
04 MR. PETER GEE:
05 We help the Game Commission
06 because they check our records of
07 helping them. When we see a situation
08 in the business, obviously, I want
09 these young gentlemen to carry on
10 forever because I'm proud of it. So
11 if I see a situation, and we're not a
12 bunch of rats or anything, but if
13 things aren't being done right as far
14 as hunting, is turn it into Game
15 Commission. They may come and check
16 it or we talk directly with Harrisburg
17 also, the Department of Agriculture to
18 keep everything on the up and up. And
19 I think if you'd check with any Game
20 Commission or the Department of
21 Agriculture, you'll find nothing bad
22 about us because we're very
23 cooperative. I want it done right.
24 And like our brochure, one thing that
25 really tremendously helped I can can
78
01 add this to it, people can write a
02 brochure and write a lot of lies. If
03 you ever go, we have a beautiful
04 website and I'm proud of that website
05 because everything is put together by
06 us and on that website where it
07 illuminated one thing. The guy was
08 lying or a guy is cheating, I tell
09 them to ask that guy to repeat the
10 website. Look at Tioga and tell him.
11 There's a website.
12 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
13 If it would help you folks
14 in any way, I have documents of people
15 that have actually hunted. We asked
16 for comments, good or bad, and they
17 wrote their comments down on our
18 hunting.
19 MR. PETER GEE:
20 He's got a ton of them. But
21 to say that when the internet come
22 along, it really helped me to be real
23 truthful because, you know, they
24 couldn't say well he's lying to us.
25 Like I said, if you have references,
79
01 you have got tons of hunters, here's
02 what I want you to do. You come
03 hunting, I'll tell you the story. You
04 come hunting, if you don't get
05 anything, you don't have to pay
06 anything so there, that's free. And
07 if you're dissatisfied and think that
08 we lied to you or told you anything
09 different, so is the lodging, it's on
10 us because the brochure is all wrote
11 by us, the way it ought it to be. As
12 you good people know, if you tell the
13 truth, you spread it out. It's a
14 proud and good job and it's easy to
15 do. If you lie, you're going to get
16 caught and we don't do that.
17 MEMBER PICKETT:
18 Thank you.
19 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
20 We are proud of ourselves
21 because we're hunters. So we like to
22 treat everybody like we would be
23 treated when we go hunting.
24 MR. PETER GEE:
25 And hunters from all over
80
01 the world, it makes you feel proud
02 when we do send them out there from
03 all over the world. Like the ones we
04 had today, some day I hope they're
05 going back to Israel. It's a good
06 feeling because a hunter is a proud
07 man. If you have trouble, if you're
08 having trouble with the hunter or the
09 hunt. He's a sportsmen who's
10 struggling.
11 CHAIR SMITH:
12 Representative Sonney?
13 MEMBER SONNEY:
14 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 Thank you Pete and Michael for your
16 testimony. How many different species
17 do you actually have?
18 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
19 I believe about 14.
20 MEMBER SONNEY:
21 And I would assume because
22 of the name of your business that you
23 originally started with boar?
24 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
25 Wild boar was our original
81
01 animal, yes.
02 MR. PETER GEE:
03 Exactly.
04 MEMBER SONNEY:
05 And when was the last time
06 you added another species?
07 MR. PETER GEE:
08 Probably about ten years,
09 something like that.
10 MEMBER SONNEY:
11 As you progressed over the
12 years and adding the species, was that
13 mostly because of requests that you
14 were getting?
15 MR. PETER GEE:
16 Yes, and the requests from
17 the returning hunters, you know. How
18 many times can you come? Some have
19 hunted maybe eight, ten species over
20 the years. They're still coming back.
21 MEMBER SONNEY:
22 And since you raised a lot
23 of these yourselves, does that mean
24 that you also regulate the hunting of
25 the species, too? So that you don't
82
01 --- it doesn't make your herd ---?
02 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
03 Like our deer now, yes, we
04 sure do, yes.
05 MR. PETER GEE:
06 We don't shoot doe because,
07 you know, sometimes they do it when we
08 weed them out when we get the older
09 ones. You know, during the winter
10 months when they're not bred. This
11 time of year, we don't shoot. The
12 fawns are all protected and they're
13 out there roaming free where you see
14 them wagging that little tail, they're
15 happy.
16 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
17 Kind of like the Game
18 Commission's set-up. You have take
19 different ages to maintain a healthy
20 herd.
21 MEMBER SONNEY:
22 Do you know any of the other
23 owners of any of the other
24 establishments in Pennsylvania?
25 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
83
01 A few, yes.
02 MEMBER SONNEY:
03 Do you find that they
04 operate pretty much like you do? Or
05 are they all different in the way they
06 operate?
07 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
08 Everybody operates a little
09 bit different.
10 MR. PETER GEE:
11 Just a couple that I would
12 sanction. There's hunting preserves
13 and there's three or four, and I know
14 the Game Commission is strong up on
15 them, they're doing a good job. To do
16 it right. And basically you can't
17 take them and say this is our hunting
18 area, this is it. Well the hunting
19 area is actually coming straight out
20 of the barn. I saw one a few years
21 back where the hunting preserves where
22 I could stand in the middle of it. I
23 went not as Pete, but I was going to
24 go as a hunter, but I didn't hunt
25 because I heard these stories you
84
01 could stand in the middle of it and
02 throw an arrow. So I think, on all
03 four corners, but I think the Game
04 Commission, they've got it all under
05 control of --- you need the acreage,
06 you need good animals, you need to
07 care for them. And anymore, one time,
08 maybe 20 years ago, the Commonwealth
09 thing this and that, based upon the
10 shady is no more. We try to hold
11 them. I don't want to eliminate
12 anyone from business, but I want to
13 see them do it right. I'd rather turn
14 them in because then it affects us.
15 You hunt like Sam's Club somewheres?
16 No, you don't.
17 MEMBER SONNEY:
18 Fourteen (14) species, which
19 species is most hunted?
20 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
21 Wild boar.
22 MR. PETER GEE:
23 About 75 percent.
24 MEMBER SONNEY:
25 What is your most expensive
85
01 hunt? What species?
02 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
03 White-tailed deer.
04 MEMBER SONNEY:
05 And that is one price or it
06 depends?
07 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
08 Depends on the age of the
09 deer.
10 MR. PETER GEE:
11 You know, every one of them
12 white-tails is a ten pointer say with
13 a 24 inch spread. But for every one
14 that's out there, there's 218 or 219
15 hunters wants that one.
16 CHAIR SMITH:
17 Welcome to the Pennsylvania
18 hunting.
19 MR. PETER GEE:
20 Pennsylvania's great. But
21 with that money leading to us, you
22 know, we have to let the regulation
23 know, we have to buy all of our gear
24 from Pennsylvania and you're going to
25 have to pay top price. And we are so
86
01 big anymore that other deer go other
02 places, but I'm glad that they don't
03 have to go out of state and get mixed
04 in with Indiana or any other state
05 that's not doing it right the way we
06 try. It's a lot smoother now the way
07 it is right now because with the
08 regulations, helps us to run it right
09 and keep the crops spread out.
10 MEMBER SONNEY:
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIR SMITH:
13 Thank you both for your
14 testimony.
15 MEMBER STABECK:
16 Just one more.
17 CHAIR SMITH:
18 Okay. Chairman Stabeck.
19 MEMBER STABECK:
20 Of the 1,500 acres that you
21 have, what portion of that property is
22 cultivated into food plots?
23 MR. PETER GEE:
24 Nothing, it's all fields.
25 All fields. We buy everything to feed
87
01 them as far as your grain, all we
02 raise is hay.
03 MEMBER STABECK:
04 All right.
05 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
06 We have where some elk and
07 some deer can come into a summer
08 pasture.
09 MR. PETER GEE:
10 They eat the good stuff.
11 MR. MICHAEL GEE:
12 But as far as food plots
13 back in the woods, none.
14 MR. PETER GEE:
15 And what we do other Game
16 Commissions too, but we don't charge
17 them for it.
18 MEMBER STABECK:
19 Okay.
20 CHAIR SMITH:
21 Okay. Thank you both for
22 your excellent testimony.
23 MR. PETER GEE:
24 You're welcome. We thank
25 you.
88
01 MR. SAGGIOMO:
02 Mr. Chairman, I hope I'm not
03 out of order.
04 CHAIR SMITH:
05 Yes, you are.
06 MR. SAGGIOMO:
07 I just want to reiterate
08 that there's no perception. I haven't
09 been talking to these gentlemen from
10 Tioga for over two years since the
11 last time I was there. They are not
12 members of Unified Sportsmen in
13 Pennsylvania. Why, I don't know.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 Now you're really out of
16 order. You're soliciting.
17 MR. SAGGIOMO:
18 But I just wanted the
19 perception may be there and the last
20 hunt event was two years ago until we
21 met in the lobby. So I just want to
22 make sure that there's no bantering
23 back and forth that was received, and
24 one and serves the other. Thank you,
25 Mr. Chairman.
89
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 Thank you. The next to
03 testify from the Pennsylvania Deer
04 Farmer, Carl Gee.
05 MR. MIKE GEE:
06 I would like to thank the
07 Committee for allowing me to represent
08 the Pennsylvania Deer Farmers
09 Association and being able to read
10 their statement on House Bill Number
11 2289. I guess this is family night
12 and I'm the last of the family so
13 please bear with me.
14 CHAIR SMITH:
15 I wondered about that, but
16 you are here for the Pennsylvania Deer
17 Farmers Association?
18 MR. MIKE GEE:
19 Yes, sir.
20 CHAIR SMITH:
21 Not for the family?
22 MR. MIKE GEE:
23 No, they asked me to read
24 this and I guess that's what I want to
25 do for them.
90
01 On behalf of the
02 Pennsylvania Deer Farmers Association,
03 I thank you for the opportunity to
04 speak today regarding House Bill 2289,
05 presented by State Representative
06 Corrigan.
07 The legislation would make
08 it illegal to hunt animals for a fee
09 or to charge a fee to another for the
10 purpose of hunting an animal. Under
11 the broad definitions provided in the
12 Bill, this legislation bans hunting
13 for a fee of any animal, exotic
14 wildlife, as defined as including, but
15 not limited to, bears, coyotes, lions,
16 et cetera. And the Bill allows the
17 Game Commission to add whatever animal
18 they wish by regulation.
19 It should be no surprise
20 that the Pennsylvania Deer Farmers
21 Association adamantly opposes this
22 legislation.
23 Deer farmers raise their
24 herds for a variety of reasons while
25 some raise deer simply for the
91
01 pleasure of having deer in their
02 backyard. Others raise their deer for
03 commercial purposes. Those include
04 raising deer for venison, antlers,
05 semen, urine and hunting ranches.
06 Hunting ranches are one of the biggest
07 end markets for privately owned deer.
08 There are over 900 deer
09 farms in Pennsylvania with about 30 or
10 so of them considered hunting ranches.
11 These ranches range in size from 100
12 to 1,200 acres and permit someone the
13 opportunity to hunt a trophy buck in a
14 safe and sane environment. With 900
15 operations, we are one of the largest
16 deer farming states in the nation.
17 And we have been farming deer and
18 operating hunting ranches in the
19 Commonwealth for decades.
20 The deer hunting ranches
21 come from privately owned deer herd.
22 These animals have been tested and
23 monitored for disease such as
24 tuberculosis, brucellosis and CWD.
25 And they've been raised in an
92
01 environment that ensures their healthy
02 development.
03 In private herds, a breeding
04 doe typically lives 15 years while
05 breeding bucks live around eight
06 years. As deer on a hunting ranch are
07 anywhere from four to six years old
08 when they are harvested which allows
09 the deer to reach maximum growth
10 potential. The average life span for
11 a privately owned deer is 9.3 years.
12 This is approximately four and a half
13 times longer than deer that are taken
14 in the wild.
15 When you consider
16 expenditures for land, fencing,
17 inventory, feed and equipment,
18 Pennsylvania cervid farmers have
19 hundreds of millions of dollars
20 invested in their operations. They
21 generate millions of dollars in
22 revenue for the Commonwealth.
23 As deer farmers, we must
24 continue to act as responsible
25 stewards and manage our animals in
93
01 such a way that protects the
02 investment we have made in our
03 Commonwealth. As it specifically
04 relates to hunting ranches, the
05 Pennsylvania Deer Farmers Association
06 has adopted a Hunting Ranch Code of
07 Ethics attached to this testimony.
08 I have heard some of the
09 same horror stories that will probably
10 be told today about how some animals
11 are tethered in a small enclosed space
12 and shot numerous times. The
13 Pennsylvania Deer Farmers Association
14 condemns such conduct. I come to you
15 today to ensure that you get an
16 accurate picture of deer farming and
17 hunting ranches in the Commonwealth.
18 If hunting ranches in Pennsylvania are
19 anything like the horror stories that
20 we've heard from other states, I can't
21 see how we could stay in business for
22 10, 20 and in some cases, 30 years.
23 Deer farming and hunting
24 preserves should be lauded for being
25 responsible stewards providing a means
94
01 of preserving farmland from
02 development and for being part of a
03 growing segment of our state's
04 economy.
05 Recently, the Pennsylvania
06 Deer Farmers Association hired an
07 outside consultant to conduct an
08 economic impact study on the cervid
09 industry in Pennsylvania. While the
10 finished report is not yet available,
11 I am told that the numbers are
12 impressive.
13 In conclusion, the
14 Pennsylvania Deer Farmers Association
15 strongly opposes House Bill 2289. We
16 hope that this testimony gives you a
17 more accurate description of the state
18 hunting ranches in Pennsylvania.
19 Thank you for your attention and I'll
20 try to answer your questions at this
21 time.
22 CHAIR SMITH:
23 Thank you for your
24 testimony. You recall that I asked
25 Heidi if the Bill would be applicable
95
01 in the case of simply the deer farm
02 where you were conducting only deer
03 hunts. Having said that, do many of
04 your organization's members have
05 species besides deer that are hunted
06 at the same location?
07 MR. MIKE GEE:
08 No, sir. These members are
09 all deer breeders. Now the ones that
10 own hunting ranches that are also deer
11 breeders would also have other animals
12 other than just deer.
13 CHAIR SMITH:
14 Which may be defined as
15 exotic?
16 MR. MIKE GEE:
17 Could be defined as exotic,
18 yes, sir.
19 CHAIR SMITH:
20 All right. And that's why
21 the Deer Farmers Association
22 vehemently opposes this legislation?
23 MR. MIKE GEE:
24 That would be one of the
25 reason, yes, sir.
96
01 CHAIR SMITH:
02 Okay. I just want to be
03 sure for the record that you're aware
04 that the Bill does not apply strictly
05 to locations where only deer are
06 hunted.
07 MR. MIKE GEE:
08 Yes, sir. I can't speak ---
09 I do myself. Like I said, I'm reading
10 this for the officers of the
11 Association and I'm sure they are also
12 aware of that.
13 CHAIR SMITH:
14 Thank you. Chairman
15 Stabeck?
16 MEMBER STABECK:
17 Yes. The opposition to your
18 Association, does the Association view
19 the passage of this Bill perhaps as
20 the first step toward the outright
21 elimination of deer hunting on ranches
22 or deer hunting in general in the
23 Commonwealth further down the road?
24 MR. MIKE GEE:
25 Once again, I myself feel
97
01 that way, sir, and I'm also sure that
02 the members of the Association feel
03 the same way although I can't speak
04 directly for them. But I do believe
05 that is what we believe the outcome
06 will be is that it will eliminate deer
07 hunting in Pennsylvania on ranches.
08 MEMBER STABECK:
09 Okay.
10 CHAIR SMITH:
11 Representative Pickett?
12 MEMBER PICKETT:
13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In
14 commenting about whether or not deer
15 are included in this Bill, we do have
16 a comment on lines 15 and 16, any
17 other species added by the Commission.
18 Would that not possibly leave the door
19 open down the road that they could
20 decide to add deer? I mean it kind of
21 just ---.
22 MR. MIKE GEE:
23 Yes, ma'am and I'm sorry I
24 didn't clarify this earlier, but the
25 term deer not only applies to white-
98
01 tail, but it also applies to fallow
02 deer and Seco Deer and European Red
03 Stag which are considered exotic
04 animals. So by the same wording, the
05 term deer doesn't just apply to our
06 native Pennsylvania white-tail that
07 most people would think of, but also
08 other species of deer.
09 MEMBER PICKETT:
10 Thank you. Also one of the
11 comments you make is that the deer
12 ranches permit someone the opportunity
13 to hunt a trophy buck in a safe and
14 sane environment. One of the comments
15 that I hear from hunters so often,
16 especially the non-resident hunters
17 that might come in and they're a huge
18 piece of the economy when they come
19 in. I mean, they're certainly
20 spending a lot of money in the area.
21 They say but we can't find anyplace to
22 hunt. We don't know where to go
23 because a lot of land is posted, they
24 may not know somebody that they can
25 ask to hunt on the land or whatever
99
01 and that frustrates them and they may
02 not be coming back or they may decide
03 to do something else with their
04 hunting money. So it would seem to me
05 that the deer hunting ranches, if you
06 call them that, would help with this
07 decreasing of hunters because they
08 simply don't feel they can find a
09 place to go to hunt. And also the
10 safe and sane, I think is a pretty
11 good statement there if somebody's
12 coming in and unfamiliar with the
13 territory and they really don't know
14 where to go. They're also unsure of
15 exactly what they're getting into in a
16 territory. You make that go away for
17 them in a way.
18 MR. MIKE GEE:
19 Yes, ma'am, we certainly do.
20 I can't speak for the other ranches,
21 but I know specifically that at our
22 business that is our number one
23 concern is safety, safety, at all
24 safety times, above and beyond any
25 other thing, it is definitely safety
100
01 first.
02 MEMBER PICKETT:
03 Okay. And do the deer
04 ranches that you speak about, do they
05 grow venison for restaurants?
06 MR. MIKE GEE:
07 Yes, ma'am.
08 MEMBER PICKETT:
09 Okay. It's something that's
10 very popular, I know.
11 MR. MIKE GEE:
12 Yes, ma'am.
13 MEMBER PICKETT:
14 And also I like the comment
15 of preserving farmland. It's
16 something that we're all really
17 concerned about and making sure we're
18 preserving our farmland and our open
19 spaces and this is one more way to be
20 able to do that and keep the cash flow
21 such that it can happen and stave the
22 development. So thank you, sir.
23 MR. MIKE GEE:
24 You're welcome.
25 CHAIR SMITH:
101
01 Representative Sonney?
02 MEMBER SONNEY:
03 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
04 Thank you, Mike, for your testimony.
05 I don't know if you can answer this
06 question or not, but those farms that
07 raise the deer, and Representative
08 Pickett kind of touched on it, they
09 obviously sell the meat? A lot of
10 them do?
11 MR. MIKE GEE:
12 Yes, sir.
13 MEMBER SONNEY:
14 As far as hunting goes or
15 hunting purposes go, is it only buck
16 with a big rack that's worth anything
17 to a place like yours?
18 MR. MIKE GEE:
19 Not necessarily so. Some
20 people are not necessarily trophy
21 hunters, they're just interested in
22 the meat aspect of it. So it also
23 goes to the females or the does, too.
24 MEMBER SONNEY:
25 And are you purchasing --- I
102
01 probably should have asked this
02 previously, but are you able to
03 sustain your own herd or do you have
04 to continually purchase from outside
05 farms to maintain your ---?
06 MR. MIKE GEE:
07 We still purchase from
08 outside to not only sustain our herd,
09 but also to maintain a strong blood
10 line within our herd so that we don't
11 promote inbreeding within our herd.
12 MEMBER SONNEY:
13 And can you give me some
14 kind of sense of what costs is
15 involved here with buying these deer?
16 In other words, if you want to buy a
17 doe, what do you expect to pay for it?
18 And if you wanted to buy a ten point
19 buck, what could you expect to pay for
20 that to bring it to your facility?
21 MR. MIKE GEE:
22 Just the least amount of
23 dollars I can.
24 MEMBER SONNEY:
25 It's actually starting to
103
01 get pretty competitive aren't they?
02 MR. MIKE GEE:
03 Yes.
04 MEMBER SONNEY:
05 With that many growers out
06 there, and obviously the big money for
07 them if they're not selling the
08 venison to an outside source.
09 MR. MIKE GEE:
10 Yes, sir.
11 MEMBER SONNEY:
12 A lot of these have to be
13 rather smaller establishments and what
14 they're really hoping for is the buck;
15 correct?
16 MR. MIKE GEE:
17 Yes, sir.
18 MEMBER SONNEY:
19 They're trying to get that
20 big buck. They were going to get the
21 big bucks to sell; correct?
22 MR. MIKE GEE:
23 Yes, that really has a large
24 variable depending on ---.
25 MEMBER SONNEY:
104
01 Let's put it this way, what
02 prices have you heard that an
03 establishment has paid for a buck? I
04 mean $1,000, $5,000, $10,000, how much
05 could you pay for one of these?
06 MR. MIKE GEE:
07 I would think from outside
08 the state, I don't think either one of
09 those figures would be out of range.
10 Because it's a matter of supply and
11 demand. It depends on the ---.
12 MEMBER SONNEY:
13 But you're not buying that
14 specific for a hunter or you are?
15 MR. MIKE GEE:
16 No.
17 MEMBER SONNEY:
18 You're buying that for your
19 stock?
20 MR. MIKE GEE:
21 For our stock, yes, sir,
22 that's correct.
23 MEMBER SONNEY:
24 So a potential hunter
25 doesn't call you up and say I'm
105
01 looking for a 12 point buck, can you
02 get me one?
03 MR. MIKE GEE:
04 They do.
05 MEMBER SONNEY:
06 Or do you have one?
07 MR. MIKE GEE:
08 Yes, that would be the
09 thing.
10 MEMBER SONNEY:
11 What if he called you up and
12 said can you get me one?
13 MR. MIKE GEE:
14 You could try.
15 MEMBER SONNEY:
16 And the hunt would still be
17 the same?
18 MR. MIKE GEE:
19 No guarantee. Yes, sir, the
20 hunt would still be the same.
21 MEMBER SONNEY:
22 But no guarantee? You can
23 say we have one on the property?
24 MR. MIKE GEE:
25 It wouldn't change a thing.
106
01 MEMBER SONNEY:
02 That's all you would tell
03 them is that we have one on the
04 property?
05 MR. MIKE GEE:
06 Yes, sir, that's correct.
07 MR. PETER GEE:
08 You wouldn't bring him in
09 for nothing if you didn't have it. If
10 we told him there was a 12 point,
11 there'd be a 12 point. It'd be up to
12 him to find it and get it.
13 MR. MIKE GEE:
14 Yes, sir. And then again,
15 the choice of whether he decides to
16 shoot it or not would also be up to
17 him. Some people are looking for non
18 typical animals and some people are
19 looking for just the perfect rack. So
20 that has a little bit to do with it,
21 too.
22 MEMBER SONNEY:
23 Okay. Thank you.
24 MR. MIKE GEE:
25 Yes, sir. You're more than
107
01 welcome. Thank you very much for the
02 opportunity.
03 CHAIR SMITH:
04 You're sitting with Ralph
05 and you're out of order even though
06 you're trying to help.
07 MR. PETER GEE:
08 Sorry, sir.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 You may finish your
11 sentence.
12 MR. PETER GEE:
13 All I was going to say if it
14 also helps --- what the typical deer
15 farmer, he gets stuck with a lot of
16 junk. There's maybe a four point
17 that's got a bent horn and he doesn't
18 want to breed him again you know. We
19 let him bring him to Tioga and then
20 let the man that's working back in
21 with three kids, he wants to go on a
22 deer hunt and he wants some meat for
23 the family. You know, you do it that
24 way and it also helps you balance and
25 the deer farmers get rid of their
108
01 unworthy deer or junk.
02 CHAIR SMITH:
03 That's the longest sentence
04 I ever heard.
05 MR. PETER GEE:
06 I'll shut up now.
07 MR. MIKE GEE:
08 Thank you very much for the
09 opportunity.
10 CHAIR SMITH:
11 Thank you. I wanted to
12 point out one other thing before you
13 leave because it was part of what
14 Representative Pickett said. Rod
15 Corey, sitting on my right, is a
16 lawyer that we had accompany us on
17 this trip and one portion of the Bill
18 on page two does indicate that any
19 other species --- if the Bill passed
20 in its present form, any other species
21 added by Commission regulation. So
22 that in essence, if the Game
23 Commission would be empowered to add
24 any species, it could be deer or elk
25 which would put your organization's
109
01 members out of business.
02 MR. MIKE GEE:
03 Yes, sir.
04 CHAIR SMITH:
05 Okay. I wanted to establish
06 that for the record also.
07 MR. MIKE GEE:
08 Thank you very much.
09 CHAIR SMITH:
10 Thank you. Also for the
11 record, we have a list of, must be at
12 least 25 organizations, statewide
13 hunting organizations that received
14 the same letter that Ralph's Unified
15 Sportsmen received and announced this
16 hearing and the location. And none of
17 the others indicated that they wanted
18 to speak. Everybody that indicated
19 that they wanted to take a position on
20 this Bill testified today. So that
21 although we have a limited turnout of
22 our members because it is summertime,
23 this will be a matter of record and it
24 will be publicized and the word will
25 get out that we did have a hearing.
110
01 And Heidi, I'm sure that you'll tell
02 Representative Corrigan about the
03 hearing and I will talk to him in
04 September about the hearing that we
05 held. Having said all that, I thank
06 you for your attendance. And this
07 hearing is officially adjourned.
08 Thanks.
09 * * * * * * * *
10 PUBLIC HEARING CONCLUDED AT 9:07 P.M.
11 * * * * * * * *
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25