Adjournment [27 MAR., 1973] Death of Sir Bertram Stevens. 3989

was here today except the Commonwealth not know that it is quite the word to use police. Mr President, you might look at the in cases where a demonstration is pending. reason for this formidable array. I have However, I shall discuss the matter with made inquiries in responsible quarters, Mr Speaker and see what his views are and I was informed that it was to take care about effecting any changes that might be of some disreputable female who was likely possible. to appear on the premises. I shall not say more in that respect, for I do not want to The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister judge other people. I have many mem­ for Decentralisation and Development and ories of a famous character named Bea Vice-President of the Executive Council) Miles who appeared in this Parliament on [11.44], in reply: The matter raised by the several occasions, but did not require any Hon. L. D. Serisier certainly has merit. I great array of police strength to restrain am quite happy to discuss his suggestion with the Premier and Treasurer with a view her. to finding out from the Rural Bank the Another matter that arises out of this is present situation with regard to its rural the difficulty citizens have of getting access industry agency, and whether it will be to the public galleries of Parliament. I possible to extend assistance to the tradi­ believe that the citizens of New South Wales tional wheatgrowers who at present are short have an unquestionable right of access to of finance for sowing and preparing their the galleries of this Parliament at all times, ground for the wheat crop. and I find the restrictions placed on them Motion agreed to. these days require your careful consid­ House adjourned at 11.45 p.m. eration. I conclude with the thought that members of this House have a particular responsibility in the two matters I have raised-the security of Parliament, and the 1JJ.e.gt.alntib.r .2\.a.a.emhly availability of the galleries of Parliament to the people of New South Wales. Mr Tuesday, 27 March, 1973 President, I ask you to use your good graces to have these matters discussed in the Death of Hon. Sir B. S. B. Stevens, K.C.M.G., a former Premier of N.S.W.-Indecent and Restrict­ appropriate quarters. ed Publications Bill (Petition)-N.S.W. Perma­ nent Building Society (Urgency)-Questions with­ The PRESIDENT: Order! Referring only to out Notice-Proposed Oil Refinery at Lucas Heights (Adjournment)-Bills Returned-Municipality of what the Hon. H. D. Ahern said about the Hurstville (Wolli Creek, Kingsgrove, Public Re­ security of the House and the difficulty he serve Land Sale) Bill (first reading)-Indecent and Restricted Publications Bill (Com.)-Zoologi­ says there is of getting admission to the cal Parks Board Bill (second reading)-Electricity Commission (Superannuation) Amendment Bill public galleries, so far as this House is con­ (second reading)-Adjournment (Car Stealing cerned there is no restriction on access to Film: Dubious Contracts)-Printed Questions and galleries; they are perfectly open for any­ Answers. one to come in at any time. I do not know whether difficulty is experienced getting into Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. SIR KEVIN any other gallery; that is not my concern. ELLIS) took the chair at 2.30 p.m. In regard to the other matter raised by Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. the honourable member, I do not know whether or not too many police were in the DEATH OF THE HONOURABLE SIR front yard today. I did not see what went BERTRAM SYDNEY BARNSDALE on there, but I take it that the police acted STEVENS, K.C.M.G., A FORMER PREMIER in what they thought was an appropriate OF NEW SOUTH WALES manner, and acted according to what they Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Pre­ expected the situation might be. I do not mier and Treasurer [2.31]: I move: know what other methods could be used That this House extends to the family of the to ensure the security of the House-if Hon. Sir Bertram Sydney Barnsdale Stevens, security is the right word to use, for I do K.C.M.G., a former Premier of the State of 3990 Death of Sir Bertram Stevens [ASSEMBLY] a Former Premier of N.S.W.

New South Wales, the deep sympathy of mem­ While Sir Bertram's deep-seated disagree­ bers of the Legislative Assembly in the loss ments with his ministerial head, the Pre­ sustained. mier and Treasurer, Mr J. T. Lang, are now It is with regret that I announce to the matters of record, this is not an appropriate House the death of the Hon. Sir Bertram occasion to revive the bitter controversies of Stevens, a former Premier of this State. those very difficult days. It is sufficient to Sir Bertram, who was 84, died last Satur­ say that Sir Bertram resigned to stand for day in a private hospital after an extended Parliament as a Nationalist candidate for period of ill-health. This morning in com­ Croydon in 1927 and was elected with a pany with yourself, Mr Speaker, Ministers handsome majority. He was immediately and members from both sides of the House, taken into the new Bavin coalition minis­ I attended the State funeral arranged to try, which replaced the Lang Government, honour his memory. Although the late Pre­ as Assistant Treasurer. Later, in April, mier had long been absent from public life, 1929, he was appointed Treasurer and Min­ the representative gathering at his funeral ister for Railways. I know of no other in­ was eloquent testimony to his outstanding stance in Australian parliamentary life of a service to this State and, indeed, to the Treasury under-secretary who became nation, and a tribute to the debt which the Treasurer in such a short space of time-if community still owes to him. Sir Bertram's indeed at all. career of service to the public was meteoric With the defeat of the Bavin Government and, I believe, unique. by Mr Lang's party in 1930, the Hon. Ber­ Sir Bertram was born in Marrickville on tram Stevens was elected, first, deputy leader 2nd January, 1889, and as have been so of the United Australia Party, which the many men of distinction, was educated at Nationalists were then called; two years Fort Street Boys High School. It is a matter later he was elected leader. On 13th May, of interest that at one time he was in the 1932, the Governor, Sir Phillip Game, dis­ same class at Fort Street High School as the missed the Lang Government and the Hon. late Dr H. V. Evatt. Sir Bertram had to Bertram Stevens was sworn in as Premier. leave school at the age of 14 but at night In the elections that followed the Stevens­ he studied accountancy. At the age of 19 Bruxner coalition Government was returned he was coaching others in the subject. Be­ with a large majority. When Sir Bertram fore joining the State public service in 1912 became Premier, New South Wales, in com­ at the age of 23, he worked for Manly ?lon with the rest of Australia, was suffer­ municipal council where he became an in­ mg from the effects of the worst depression spector of council accounts. Sir Bertram's in the nation's history. One-third of the rise in the New South Wales public service working population was unemployed and was rapid. He commenced as a clerk in the subsisting on food relief or charity. Sir Ber­ Department of Public Works and within a tram was able to use his great financial tal­ period of three years had become an ex­ ents and unique background to rehabilitate aminer of local-government accounts within the State Treasury and restore confidence that department. Five years later he had in the Government. As Premier he led New been appointed a Public Service Board in­ South Wales out of the turmoil and anxieties spector and in 1924 became Director of of the great depression, with the conse­ Finance and Under Secretary of the Trea­ quence that when war came in 1939 the sury at the remarkably young age for such State's economy was soundly based and a post of 35. It is obvious from what I have standards generally in the community were said that the late Sir Bertram possessed an high. unusual talent in the fields of accountancy and finance. Those who remember him New South Wales and the nation owe speak to this day of his remarkable memory much to Sir Bertram Stevens. He held the -not only for names and faces but also position of Premier for what was then a for figures and telephone numbers. I am told that he was able to keep hundreds of record continuous term of 7 years and 3 telephone numbers in his head. months out of his total period of service in Sir Robert Askin] Dearh of Sir Bertram Stevens [21 Ml\it, 1'91:3'] tz t!ormet Premiet- '0/N.s.w. 3~1

t'he parliament of 13 years. Sir Bei'tralr\ re­ ~iling his humble beginnings before reath­ signed as }lremier in August, 1939, and mg the top executive position in this ·State-"­ ftom the parliament in 194{) to contest the the Premiership. federal seat of Lang. He was unsuccessful Sir Bertram Stevens was a careerist in the in thi~, but was appointed Australian repre­ true sense of the word. He carved a sentah~e of th~ . Eastern Group Supply Council at Delh1 m 1941, and remained in career by sheer determination and tremen­ this position until the foilowing year. His dous personal energy. History rec·ords it­ fine record of public serviCe was recognized and it would be hypocritical for me to infer otherwise.o-tha't Sir Bertram and the Labor by His Majesty in 1941 when he was made movement, particularly the parliamentary a Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George. He was the author Labor Party, were diametrically opposed throughout his tetlh in this Parliament. The of :several hooks, including New Horizons wh1ch was written after his return from In­ days during which he played the prin'cipal and the near-principal role in this House dia and published in 1946, and Planning for as and as Leader of the Opposition: War and Peace, which was published in Pre~ier were times of human suffering, degradation 1940.. Also, he was founder and first presi­ and destitution'-the days of the great dent m 1946 of the India League of Aus­ tralia. depression. Sir .Bertram was a man of great personal The soi.Il-seilring experiences of the un­ austenty and fum religious conviction. He employed and the hopelessness which faced serve~ his churdi well as a lay preacher ~he .overwhelming majority of the people and m that capacity .visited many centres mevltably created wide chasms in the social such as Newcastle and Katoomba. ltis main fabric . of the community. Personalities sporting interest was cricket which he was cHished .arid hatreds ran deep. They. were happy to watch. He played social tennis and days Which nd san:e human being would ever Wish to see return. It was in that abrasive was v~ry fond or music. I am told he played the p1ano, mostly by ear, and while still a explosive atmosphere that the leaders and Y?ung man played the organ for the church. members of the politically opposed parties faced each other across this very table. S1r Bertr~m came from humble beginnings and, deSpite a career of great eminence, he Tempers ran sh.ort and spleens overllowed amassed few worldly goods. He served his in bitter verbal encounters. But the State State with distinction during some of its weathered the storm and each side has laid darkest and most challenging days, and I its claim in history to having contributed am honoured to pay tribute to liis memoty to its safe passage, Let hi~torians ~omment in this place this afternoon. On behalf of upon those daims1 but let us ·draw a ,sahittary lesson from those dark days and .he ever t~e Government, I extend to the family of S1r Bertram Stevens sincere sympathy in vigilant and mindful never to allow such their sad loss. circumstances to develop again. . Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the Sir Bertram was afflicted with ill~health Opposition (!.39]: I second tlie moW:iti in the closing years of his life and his for­ and; speaking on behalf of the tUnes declined to a low po,iiit. That must be Opposition, I join with the Premier arid a. tremendous lesson in hUmility to those Treasurer irt extending our sympathy to the of us who knew the full circumstances of relatives of Sir Bertram Stevens. I also that decline. it is art object lesson in the attended .the funeral service this morning, greatest of all virtues to know that in those and was Impressed by the large number of days of want the person who was foremost people . present, including people in high in moving to secure some alleviation for places in the community and people who Sir Bertram was the man who sat opposite him in this Chamber and upon whom he were obviously former constituents of the had poured .so great a volume of political ~entleman they were honouring. The Pte­ vituperation and vitriol. Sir Bertram, in turh, J!liier and Treasurer has outlined the e:xtra­ had castigated, criticized and denounced oraimiry career of Sir Bertram Stevens, de- hirri. I refer to the former Labor Premier 3992 Death of Sir Bertram Stevens [ASSEMBLY] a Former Premier of N.S.W. and Leader of the Opposition, John Thomas the worth of the man. I pay tribute to him Lang, who still survives his political op­ for the man be was and for the work be ponent of those dark, dreadful days. did at a time of complete desperation in this State. He engendered confidence and, Sir Bertram Stevens served this State as because of his dynamic personality and skil­ a public servant and as a Minister of the ful approach, he played a major part in Crown with all his energies in what he overcoming the depression that rampaged believed to be the right manner and direc­ through Australia at .the time. As the Leader tion. We acknowledge his ability and we of the Opposition has said, they were des­ leave to the judgment of history his perate times of human suffering, such as ephemeral, earthly career. To his two Australia had not seen before and, pray daughters and his son we extend our sym­ God, will not see again. If we are to learn pathy and join the Premier in this con­ a lesson from those times and from the life dolence motion. of this man we will ensure to the utmost Mr D. B. HUNTER (Ashfield) [2.43]: that, given the strength and wiii to do so, Any person who has played a controversial those times of agony in human life and part in the political life o~ a State, par­ values will not return. ticularly during the depression years? must If Sir Bertram Stevens won any glory let history decide the real value of hts con­ or fame for the work he did in those days, tribution to those times. It has been said he paid a terrific price for it, not so much clearly that in those times, despite the ram­ in the estimation of his fellowmen as in the paging and horror that stalked the land, toll that it took on his own life and health Sir Bertram Stevens was a factor for con­ and on that of Lady Stevens. To work with fidence where there was no confidence, and such energy, enthusiasm and sincerity and that he gave hope in a land that was almost then to spend his last days without the desperately hopeless. This value came not recognition and appreciation of the world only out of his political convict.ions and the around him was a tremendous price to pay, responsibilities that were bts to steer bearing in mind what he did for his the ship of state of those days, but also fellowmen. I join with others in the sym­ out of the fundamental convictions of the pathy that has been expressed to his two man that he was serving his God, notwith­ daughters and son. I stand four-square in standing the lack of outward show of them acknowledging the part he played in the because of the very kindly nature dominat­ life of this State and in the confidence and ing his relations with his fellowmen. hope be displayed when those important That value was shown, as I have bad human attributes were very much at a many opportunities to see, in the relation­ discount. ships that existed between Sir Bertram and Mr SHEAHAN (Burrinjuck) [2.48]: As the people of his electorate who suffered probably the only member of the Opposi­ with others in those times, and by the sym­ tion who fought parliamentary elections dur­ pathy and concern that. he o~t~n exp~e~s.ed, ing the regime as Premier of the deceased apart altogether from hts political a~tivttJes, member about whom the motion has been at the torrid experiences that mankmd was suffering. All this was based on his very put before the House today, I should like to real and sincere relations with his God. It add a few words concerning the man and was shown in his splendid family life as a the times in which he served this State as husband and a father. It was shown, too, Premier. It is sad to think that, such is the in the relations that existed between him toll of public life, immediately prior to his and those with whom he worked officially death he was the sole survivor but one of all and unofficially in his electorate. the members of his ministry. Those who It was my privilege in those days to play gathered at the funeral are not perhaps as some small part in an organization of which familiar with the controversies of the times he was a member. This enabled me to see as those who took part in them. There are behind the public figure and to recognize two things that constrain me to refer to the Death of Sir Bertram Stevens [27 MAR., 1973] a Former Premier of N.S.W. 3993

late member. They demonstrate in a prac­ North Shore Hospital. I join the Premier tical way what happens when the chill winds and Treasurer and the Leader of the Oppo­ of misfortune blow full face towards a gen­ sition in extending to her and to the other tleman who has served the State in its members of Sir Bertram Stevens' family highest office. my deepest sympathy in the loss of one who, It is characteristic of the way our democ­ whatever his failings, faults, achieve­ racy works that those who were probably ments and successes, left behind him a most hostile towards him showed some memorial of which his family can well be semblance of recognition for the ser­ proud. vices he rendered. The first I should like Mr BRUXNER (Tenterfield), Minister to mention is a former adversary, Mr J. T. for Housing and Minister for Co-operative Lang, who advocated that Sir Bertram Societies [2.52]: I wish to be associated with Stevens should be granted a pension or this motion and to add my name to those superannuation. Until more recent years this of other honourable members in expressing was denied him, as it was denied members sympathy to the family of Sir Bertram of parliament generally. That was the posi­ Stevens. Other speakers have referred tion, despite the alleged hostility which at mainly to Sir Bertram's service as Premier times was more actively promoted by pub­ of this State and as a member of parlia­ lishers and commentators than was actually ment. I wish simply to speak of him as the case. That action by Mr J. T. Lang an old family friend. His family and mine may be taken as a tribute to the deceased were close friends for many years, so Premier. naturally my first recollection of him was The other matter to which I wish to refer when I was a fairly small boy. The link is a little more personal. By reason of the forged between Sir Bertram and my father ministerial office that I held at the time, during the troubled times when Sir Bertram and through the intervention of an honour­ was Premier was never broken. able member in another place, I was able Even though it was a sad occasion at his to extend a small kindness to the late Premier. Sir Bertram Stevens visited Parlia­ funeral this morning, I was pleased to meet ment House subsequently and thanked me again his daughter and his son after a lapse for doing so. Also, he encouraged me in of many years. His other daughter, unfor­ tunately, was overseas, and was unable to be the work of reform within an area of my administration in which I was then engaged. present. I was surprised to read in a news­ I noticed at the time a decline in Sir Bert­ paper a comment that Sir Bertram Stevens ram's alertness and physical appearance. I was a man who found it hard to converse recalled to him the stirring days in which with others, and lacked humour. That was he was the leader of the Government in not so. I have a vivid recollection of him as a man of great warmth and charm, with New South Wales. It would be unkind of a ready wit that endeared him to young me to make any further reference to those days except to say that perhaps parliamen­ people. tary life and ministerial office came too Other honourable members, and particu­ easily to Sir Bertram Stevens, without the larly the honourable member for Burrin­ disappointments and frustration that gener­ juck, have spoken of his kindness and of ally precede it. However, he was a product the severe strain under which he and other of his time, which is now part of the history leaders of the State lived in those difficult of this State. In the hush and stillness of years. Only those of us who experienced that death it is not appropriate to refer to those strain at the level of family life can really days other than to say that it is the hope understand how tremendous it was. I know and wish of everyone in this House that that the strain imposed on Sir Bertram took they will never occur again. a heavy toll, and it is a matter of great It became my privilege to become regret that his last years were ones of ill­ acquainted with one of Sir Bertram Stevens's ness. Sir Bertram Stevens suffered some sad daughters, who was a dietitian at the Royal disillusions in this House of Parliament: so 3994 Death of Sir Bertram Stevens [ASSEMBLY] Building Sodery much so that when he left here he was ing widespread community concern and determined that he would never return. He praying that time be allowed to debate did not enter this building for twenty-two the bill further before it is passed into years and then only to attend a dinner held law. to mark the retirement of my father as a member of parliament. I know how deeply Petition received on motion by Mr my father appreciated that gesture and I Petersen. wish to place on record the appreciation of my family for it. N.S.W. PERMANENT BUILDING SOCIETY LIMITED My father once said that budget speeches URGENCY delivered in this House by Sir Bertram were Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the the only ones he was able to understand. Opposition [2.59]: I move: He paid tribute to Sir Bertram and the That it is a matter of urgent necessity that Hon. J. J. Cahill, father of the present this House should forthwith consider the honourable member for Cooks River, by following motion, viz.: saying that they were the two most able That this House caJls on the Government politicians with whom he had served. In to: my official capacity as Minister for Co­ (a) set up immediately a public inquiry operative Societies I should like to record presided over by a Supreme or Dis­ that Sir Betram was the architect of legisla­ trict Court Judge to inquire into all aspects of the public allegations made tion which for the first time gave govern­ concerning the operations of the ment guarantee to lending institutions, en­ N.S.W. Permanent Building Society, abling co-operative building societies to and further their work. Sir Bertram introduced (b) immediately amend the law to en­ that legislation into this House after the sure that loan arrangements such as doldrums of the depression years. I con­ those reported last night cannot be again entered into by any permanent sider that that was the greatest step for­ building society. ward in the building movement at that time and possibly up to the present time. I add Because of the imputations contained in my tributes to others paid to a man whom a television programme "This Day Tonight", the people of New South Wales did not telecast last night, it is most urgent and im­ give the credit that he deserved. perative that a searching inquiry be held into the commercial activities and real Members and officers of the House standing estate dealings of the permanent building in their places, societies and their directorates. With the Motion agreed to. forty-two permanent building societies registered in this State controlling investors' funds set down at $860 million at 30th June BILLS RETURNED last, it is of the utmost urgency and in the public interest that even the slightest sug­ The following bills were returned from gestion of anything unethical or improper the Legislative Council without amendment: in the conduct of the people controlling Justices (Amendment) Bill those funds should be exhaustively Venereal Diseases (Amendment) Bill examined.

Mr BRUXNER: On a point of order. Hav­ INDECENT AND RESTRICTED ing been advised that legal proceedings have PUBLICATIONS BILL been instituted in this matter, I consider that PETITION under the sub judice rule the debate should Mr PETERSEN presented a petition repre­ not be allowed to proceed. senting that the Indecent and Restricted Publications Bill, introduced into the Parlia­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! Is the Minister able ment on Tuesday, 6th March, 1973, and to to tell me anything about the legal proceed­ be read a second time without delay is caus- ings? I have no knowledge of them. N.S.W. Permanent [27 MAR., 1973] Building Society 3995 Mr BRUXNER: I understand that a writ ments relating to reports of the Registrar of :bas been issued as a result of the television Co-operative Building Societies and other broadcast last night. public documents. I put it to you, Mr Speaker, that it would be most unfortunate Mr SPEAKER: Issued by whom and -probably improper-if this House were .against whom? not allowed to discuss matters of public Mr BRUXNER: Issued on behalf of the record simply because someone had issued ·chairman of the N.S.W. Permanent Building legal proceedings relating to a statement .Society. about him. I think it would be far exceed­ ing your rulings on the sub judice rule if Mr McCAw: On the point of order. I this were allowed to happen. have been given the same information. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Honourable mem­ Mr K. J. STEW ART: On the point of bers will appreciate that I know nothing of ·order. I submit that .since the Supreme Court what was said about co-operative societies. Act of 1970 became law, it has not been I did not know that this subject was being possible to issue .a writ arising out of defam­ discussed on television last night, and I ation. Under that legislation, which was in­ know nothin,g of any litigation arising there­ troduced by the Attorney-General in this from. in view of the information that has House, a statement of claim is required. been conveyed to me by members on both Obviously, such a document must be drawn sides of the House, I think it would be up accurately by an expert. This takes some proper for me to resolve the point by relying time. The information in the hands of the upon what was said in the House of Com­ Opposition at 2.25 this afternoon was that mons by the present Speaker as recently as no statement of claim had been filed and 15th June, 1972. After dealing with the no injunction bad been sought at the question of application of the sub judice Supreme Court. rule in criminal cases, Mr Speaker Lloyd said: Mr HILLS: On the point of order. Mr Moir, who was contacted today, refused In other types of civil cases- to make any comment about the matter ex­ That is apart from criminal cases, cept to advise that litigation against the Aus­ -the burden of proof should be upon those tralian Broadcasting Commission is only be­ who wish to assert the .sub judice rule.. That ing considered. That is the present situation. is my general reaction to the matter. Mr SPEAKER: Would the Leader of the In other words, Mr Speaker Lloyd feels that Opposition tell me who contacted Mr if anyone seeks to assert that discussion Moir? ought to be restricted because of the appli­ cation of the sub iudice rule, he must make Mr HILLS: My information comes from out a case to the Speaker. A little earlier my staff, who were informed by members Mr Speaker Lloyd said: of the press that they had made contact with I am very sensitive to the argument that it Mr Moir. would be wrong to deny the House the right to discuss matters of great national interest {Interruption] just because some matter has gone to court. Mr SPEAKER: Order! In the absence of more specific information Mr HILLS: Unlike the members of the concerning the litigation or the nature there­ Government, I trust the gentlemen of the of I do not feel that this is a case in which press who passed on this information to my I should prevent the Leader of the Opposi­ staff. tion from proceeding. Mr HILLS: As I said, my reason for Mr F. J. WALKER: On the point of order. I should like to point out that the over­ moving urgency today is the concern in the whelming bulk of the subject matter of the community that the forty-two permanent ''This Day Tonight" telecast related to mat­ building societies control no less than $860 ters of public record and involved state- million of public funds. That is why the 3996 N.S.W. Perml.lnent [ASSEMBLY] Building Society allegations made last night are of grave have been approved for lending by the concern to the Opposition and, I am sure, N.S.W. Permanent Building Society, of to the public. In "This Day Tonight" ref­ which Mr Moir happens for the time being: erence was made to the N.S.W. Permanent to be the president. I am anxious that the Building Society and it was said that back Premier should take into account the sums in 1969 the chairman of that society, Mr of money involved; that the N.S.W. Perma­ Moir, had received from his own society nent Building Society deals with about $320; $15,000 for a freehold property. Last finan­ million or $340 million a year; that it is a cial year Mr Moir and his wife received big business; and that $1 million of that another $60,000 for their Killara home. turnover has been approved for lending to This is more than three times the sum that associates of Mr Moir, to himself and most people are able to borrow from build­ to members of his family. This is the ing societies in any one loan. Those loans concern that we on this side of the. totalled $75,000. In addition, last year Mr Chamber have. We say quite clearly that Moir joined with two business associates, we do not in any way question the liquidity, Dr Barry Carolan, a dentist, and Mr Tom stability or capability to meet commitments Hayson, and together they received two of the N.S.W. Permanent Building Society more joint personal loans adding up to or any o~her permanent building society $59,200. Last year, Mr Moir, Dr Carolan registered in this State. We want to have and Mr Hayson were the directors of two the matter debated and in the motion we land development companies, Jaysan Pro­ request the Government to set up a public prietary Limited and Malkurtklip Proprie­ inquiry into this matter and to take im­ tary Limited. Last financial year Malkurt­ mediate action to introduce amending legis­ klip Proprietary Limited received $310,600 lation to ensure that this s·ort of thing can­ -nearly a third of a million-in loans from not continue in the permanent building Mr Moir's building society. societies of New South Wales, which have a turnover of a:bout $840 million a year. Mr WILLIS: On a point of order. I know absolutely nothing about this matter but I Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy). can distinguish between reasons for urgency Premier and Treasurer [3.11]: Like your­ and matters relating to the substantive self, Mr Speaker, I did not view the televi­ motion. I submit that what the Leader of sion programme last night as I was attend­ the Opposition is doing is giving the infor­ ing an official function with the Deputy mation that he would give in support of the substantive motion. Leader of the Opposition and the Attorney­ General. All I know is what I read in this Mr SPEAKER: Order! What the Minister afternoon's press reports and what I have for Education indicates could well be so just heard the Leader of the Opposition but, as I pointed out to the House during debate on an urgency motion last week, say today. On that information I personally an honourable member moving urgency do not intend to prejudge a matter as must surely have to intimate in a brief way important as this one. On behalf of the what the material is and then go on to Government I say that if something is amiss show why it is urgent that the matter should -and I emphasize, if something is amiss­ be debated in the House. That is what the the Government will definitely take what­ Leader of the Opposition is doing. He understands the rule and knows what is ever action may be necessary to correct required. any weakness in the system. The Govern­ ment is entitled to have a full official Mr HILLS: I am anxious to convince the Premier of the importance of these trans­ report from the Attorney-General and from actions. So far I have referred to trans­ the Crown law authorities on the position actions involving about $450,000 and I as stated in the press today and on what could detail to the Premier another half a has been alleged by the Leader of the million dollars. We are dealing with sums Opposition to be facts-no doubt in good of money approaching $1 million which faith. We want these facts and statements N.S.W. Permanent [27 MAR., 1973] Building Society 3997 to be checked by the Attorney-General and Mr SPEAKER: Order! If there is any the Crown law authorities and for the Gov­ doubt about it, I will call the division off, •ernment to be informed definitely whether have the bells rung again, and re-commence or not there is something amiss or some the division. Honourable members will be weakness in the system. If there is, remedial aware that there has been trouble with the .action will definitely be taken. The Gov­ division bells and an electrician was work­ ernment is not prepared at short notice to ing on them on Friday and agam yesterday. .drop today all the business of the House It is difficult because of the antiquities of .and to have an urgency debate on a lot the Parliament: I shall permit the division of half-baked allegations. to proceed. Apparently the matter raised by the Lead­ AYES, 45 er of the Opposition came to light on a Mr Bannon MrKearns television programme as recently as last night. Mr Barnier Mr R. J. Kelly Mr Bedford MrMahoney It is not possible on so short notice to have a Mr Booth MrMallam careful check, to obtain legal opinions and MrCahill MrMulock to know exactly what is the position. Surely MrCoady Mr Neilly MrCox Mr Nott Opposition members do not wish to traduce MrDay Mr O'Connell people and damage people's characters with­ MrDegen Mr Paciullo MrDurick Mr Petersen out actually knowing the full facts-just pro­ Mr Earl MrQuinn ceeding on half-baked information obtained MrEinfeld MrRamsay MrFace MrRenshaw from press reports, which are often condens­ MrFerguson MrRyan ed by omitting some of the facts. I will Mr Flaherty MrSheahan expedite inquiries as much as possible and MrGordon MrSloss MrHaigh MrSouthee when the facts are known it may be neces­ Mr Hills Mr K. J. Stewart sary to take some far-reaching action. I do Mr M. L. Hunter MrWade MrJackson Mr F. J. Walker not know the facts and I am not going to Mr Jensen Tellers, prejudge them. Before the Government de­ Mr Johnstone Mr Crabtree Mr Jones Mr L. B. Kelly cides what should be done, it will seek at once an advising from the Attorney­ NoEs, 48 General, who will confer no doubt with the Mr Arblaster MrJago Sir Robert Askin MrLeitch Crown law authorities. When that informa­ Mr Jack Beale MrLewis tion is available I will make it known to MrBoyd MrMcCaw MrBrewer MrMcGinty the House and at the same time state what MrBrown MrMackie action, if any, may be necessary to correct MrBruxner MrMaddison MrCameron MrMason any weaknesses in the system. If there has MrChaffey MrMauger been any impropriety on the part of any­ MrClough MrMead MrColeman MrMorris one-! do not know whether or not there MrCowan Mr Mutton has been and I do not know whether or not MrCrawford MrOsborne it is alleged that there has been-that can Sir Charles Cutler MrPunch MrDarby MrRozzoli be dealt with in the appropriate quarters. MrDoyle Mr Singleton MrDuncan MrTaylor Question of urgency put. MrFife MrViney MrFischer MrWaddy The House divided. MrFisher Mr N. D. Walker Mr Freudenstein MrWillis Mr Griffith [In Division] Mr Healey Tellers, Mr D. B. Hunter Mr Barraclough Mr SHEAHAN: On a point of order. The Mr Jackett MrRuddock division bell does not ring in one of the Question so resolved in the negative. corridors. The bell could not be heard there for this division just taking place. Motion of urgency negatived. 3998 QuettiOn& without Notice [ASSEMBLY} Questions without Notice QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE that these statements, and perhaps even the: policy, emanate from other States that have: OPEN UNIVERSITIES nothing to compare with the systems that Mr BARRACLOUGH: I ask the Minister have existed in New South Wales for a long. for Education a question without notice. time. I am referring particularly to the ex­ Has the Minister's attention been invited to ternal courses at the University of New a federal Labor Party proposal to establish England and the Macquarie University. open universities in Australia? Is it a fact These courses, which have existed for a long. that the British type of open universities, time at the University of New England and which permit people with normally unaccep­ cater for a large number of external table qualifications to study for degrees, is students, have worked particularly well. I not the appropriate type of open university understand that in all cases the courses are for New South Wales? Also, would the Brit­ given by way of correspondence, with only ish system be too costly for this State, a brief period of residency being required. having in mind that its geographical size each year by the people undertaking the would spreaq prospective students over a courses. large area? If the British system is unsuit­ able, can the Minister say whether any con­ I should think that before governments. sideration has been given to any other type rush into an open university of any kind in of open university for this State? Australia, it would be well to examine the merits of the systems being used by the Mr WILLIS: I am aware that the federal University of New England and the Mac­ Labor Party's policy has included a number quarie University. If necessary, changes of statements, or a· statement on a number could be proposed, or perhaps. better still of occasions, concerning the wish of that the universities mentioned could be allowed party or the Labor Government to estab­ to continue with the good work they have lish sorhe form of open university in this been doing. This would be better than country. I do not know whether the intention attempting to duplicate what they are doing. is to establish an open university along the lines of the British system, although several people have said from time to time when PAYMENT OF TEACHER TRAINEES speaking on this policy that there is merit Mr EINFELD: I ask the Minister for in the system of open universities in the United Kingdom. However, I believe that Education a question without notice. Is it anyone who has examined the position will a fact that about 200 student trainee teach­ agree with the comment implicit in the hon­ ers claim that they have not yet received ourable member's question-that the cir­ allowance cheques this year, which is caus­ cumstances applicable in Great Britain are ing severe financial distress? Have a num­ by no means the same as those that apply ber of lecturers and teachers employed by in Australia. The British population is four the Department of Education also claimed or five times greater than the Australian population, while the area of Britain is about that they have not yet been paid since one-twentieth of the area of Australia. classes resumed in 1973? Does the depart­ Therefore, the population of Britain is ment dispute these claims, and does it de­ much more concentrated, and it is possible, clare that only twenty-four students have for example, for television to be used to not been paid their allowances? Does the reach a much greater number of students Minister agree that if only one student or than could be reached using the same teacher has not been paid, it reflects ad­ medium in Australia. versely on his department and the Minis­ However, I believe that the people in the ter concerned? Will the Minister please ex­ federal Labor Party who have suggested an plain why allowances and salaries have not open university have not investigated suf­ been paid? Will he say, also, when they will ficiently the systems already in existence, be paid, and what steps will be taken to particularly in New South Wales. I believe prevent a repetition of this situation? Questions without Notice [27 MAR., 1973] Questions without Notice 3999

Mt FISCHER: On a point of order. I refer advise me, and at two o'clock this after­ to the third portion of the question by the noon I was given the latest information, beputy Leader of the Opposition, who asked which is that when yesterday a group of the Minister whether he agreed with a cer­ people representing the demonstrators came tain statement. I contend that this is seek­ inside and were interviewed by the Director ing an expression of opinion. I submit that of Teacher Education and several other therefore, Mr Speaker; you rule that section senior officers, they were invited by the of his question out of order. senior officers to ask all students who had in their opinion not been paid properly to Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have noticed at make their complaints known to the question time that the Deputy Leader of registrar of the Sydney Teachers College, the Opposition frequently asks, "Do you where all the students came from. I have agree that" when it is abundantly clear to been informed .that later that day something me that he is using this expression as like eighty-odd such names were handed synonymous with "ls it a fact that" ot "Is it in to the registrar. I have been told that right that". In substance, the Deputy all these have been checked and sixty-odd Leader of the Opposition is seeking facts. of the names were erroneous, for cheques Mr WILLIS: My attention has been in­ had either been sent to these people or were vited to allegations that this year about 200 awaiting collectiort by the students con­ students have not been paid or have been cerned, as is the normal procedure, at the paid irregularly by the Department of Edu­ teachers college. I have been informed, catiotl, but not to the secortd part of the also, that five were the names of continuing honourable member's question, which I students, who are in a second or later year think referred to a number of lecturers and of their courses and have not yet been paid. teachers not being paid correctly. I cannot Further, eighteen are the names of late comment on that, for nothing of this nature award students who have not yet been paid, has beer\ brought to my notice. Yesterday a and six of .the names are still under investi­ very noisy demonstation took place outside gation. One hour ago no answer could be the Department of Education. Indeed, one of given to me at that stage concerning the those Who participated itl it carried a notice lastmentioned six. However, I have been saying that 600 trainee teachers had not assured by the departmental officers con­ been paid. This rather puzzled me because cerned that all these people will be paid I had received only one or two complaints within the next twenty-four hours or, at the last week. When I asked my department to most, within the next forty-eight hours. advise me about it, the advice I received 1 agree with the Deputy Leader of was that a limited number of people had the Opposition that even if one person not been paid; that this was due to late is not paid on time it is a matter awards of teacher tr·ainirtg scholarships: and of sufficient gravity to justify investiga­ that they were the people one would e~pect tion and correction of any fault in the would be getting their pay a little late, be­ procedures of the department. I have cause they had not been awarded scholar­ had a serious discussion this morning with ships until much later than the others and departmental officers about this matter and their names had not been entered in the I expressed concern that this sort of thing appropriate systems in the department for should occur at all. Apparently part of the the payment of their allowances. problem is due to the very magnitude of the When I heard these allegations yester­ operatiort of a department which has some­ day, l must admit I was perplexed, because thing like 70,000 people, including teacher on the one hand I was being told by the trainees, on its payroll. It is inevitable that department that a small number of people the odd mistake will occur, particularly as people change from one category to an­ were being inconvenienced in this way, but other or when individuals do not supply on the other hand allegations were being the necessary information that is required made that literally hundreds of these people ·of them. By individuals I do not mean were involved. I asked my department to only teachers or trainees: I include people 4000 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

within the system itself who are, by virtue else in this portfolio would be faced with of their positions, expected to deal with in trying to establish suitable post-secondary this sort of situation. I have directed that educatio?al facilities in Tamworth, a city improvements should be made in the system of sufficient magnitude to justify something as soon as possible to ensure that this does of this nature. As indicated in the honour­ not happen again. able member's question, the best solution I shall conclude by saying that it was wo~:dd be the establishment of a polytechnic, quite unnecessary for literally hundreds of whtch I de~cribe, in the interests of brevity, students to demonstrate yesterday when, so as somethmg between a secondary or a far as can be ascertained, only about twenty technical institution and a college of had irregularities in their payments. It is advanced education: it would be at the pretty obvious that these people were being tertiary level, but smaller than colleges stirred up unnecessarily by somebody for of advanced education elsewhere. All some purpose other than to assist these colleges of advanced education are based students. Nevertheless, I agree entirely with primarily on teacher education, .with teacher the sentiments contained in the question education components supplying the greater by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, part of their enrolment and other courses that the present system is in need of im­ of study being attached thereto, and, of provement. I have given instructions that course, being considerably smaller. that is to be done, and I hope that this sort At the time I visited Tamworth at the of thing--even in respect of only one request of the honourable member for Tam­ student-will not occur again, though I re­ worth, I conveyed these views to the people peat that it is probably impossible to achieve whom I met there, including the mayor of perfection in a system as huge as this the city and other officials interested in where 7,000 students started off at the be­ the subject. I indicated at that time ginning of the year and all had to be put that I had been in contact with the on the payroll in a short space of time. previous federal Government on the matter and that the Commonwealth advanced edu­ TAMWORTH EDUCATION FACILITIES cation commission had been asked to ex­ amine the matter. Since then, as we all know Mr CHAFFEY: I ask the Minister for to our regret, there has been a change of Education a question without notice. Did federal government with the result that this the Minister's predecessor two years ago matter has not yet been resolved. So far indicate that Tamworth would be considered as I am aware, the matter is still under con­ for the establishment of some form of in­ sideration by the federal Government. I stitution of advanced education, possibly in have personally spoken to the federal Min­ the nature of a polytechnic? Did the Minis­ ister for Education about it, and I have been ter towards the end of last year meet with advised indirectly that the Commonwealth representatives of the Tamworth city coun­ cil and the local chamber of commerce advanced education commission is still look­ who are interested in this subject and in­ ing at this question. I have not yet re­ dicate to them that he was on side with ceived any further information from the the concept and that the matter ought to Commonwealth Government. I hope it will be proceeded with in conjunction with the not be long before I receive that advice. federal authorities, approval for the neces­ I assure the honourable member for Tam­ sary funds? Is the Minister in a position worth that as soon as I have any informa­ to indicate the present position and the pros­ tion I shall be pleased to convey it to him. pects for the establishment of this type of institution? IBROX PARK HIGH SCHOOL Mr WILLIS: The answer to the first two Mr DEGEN: I ask the Minister for Edu­ parts of the honourable member's question cation a question without notice. Has the is in the affirmative. My predecessor faced Minister had the opportunity to peruse his the same complex difficulties as I or anyone departmental records for last year relating to Questions without Notice [27 MAR., 1973] Questions without Notice 4001 the exam results of the Ibrox Park boys other school of comparable size; it has high school which indicate a 40 per cent fail­ several additional teachers to take care of ure rate amongst migrant pupils studying for the very problem there to which he has now school certificate English? Is it a fact that drawn attention. again, this year, at this marginal high school there are large multi-level senior classes of predominantly migrant pupils studying Eng­ NATURAL GAS PIPELINE lish? Is the Minister aware that his current Mr MACKIE: My question without staffing policy has resulted in one less Eng­ notice is directed to the Minister for Mines, lish teacher being employed at this school Minister for Power and Assistant Treasurer. on the basis that the number of senior pupils Did the Minister meet yesterday in Can­ in fifth and sixth forms is two short of the berra with the federal Minister for Minerals anticipated pupil population? Does the Min­ and Energy and the general manager of the ister consider that, in these circumstances, Australian Gas Light Company Limited to rather than a reduction in English teachers discuss the building of a pipeline and supply at this school there should be an increase, of natural gas to New South Wales? Is it because of the serious disadvantages suffered true that the Commonwealth Government by migrant pupils when they leave school will now build a pipeline from the Moomba­ to seek employment? Gidgealpa field, and is it likely that delays could occur in its construction? If so, can Mr WILLIS: If the House were to accept the Minister say what effect this new agree­ the figures given by the honourable mem­ ment will have on the supply of natural ber for Balma:in at face value-and I have gas to the Albury growth centre, the city no doubt that be has accepted them from of Wagga Wagga, and Cootarnundra? whoever supplied them to him-one would see merit in his question. But I Mr FIFE: The honourable member for should like to point out to the honourable Wagga Wagga, as well as the honourable member that this school has not lost a member for Albury who asked the question, teacher to whom it was entitled, but a is intensely interested in the last part of the teacher surplus to its entitlement was trans­ question concerning the likelihood of any ferred from there because the school's prin­ delay in the supply of natural gas to Albury, cipal bad over-estimated the number of Wagga Wagga and Cootamundra as a result students who would be enrolled at the school of Commonwealth intervention. It is a fact at the beginning of this year. As a result, that yesterday I met in Canberra, with the one more teacher was sent there than the federal Minister for Minerals and Energy, school's enrolment warranted and that the Hon. R. F. X. Connor, and Sir William teacher was then transferred to another Pettingell, the general manager of the Aus­ school which was under strength. tralian Gas Light Company when the sub­ ject of discussion was the Commonwealth If I stopped at that point I should not be intention to intervene in this matter. As a re­ telling the whole story. The person who sult of the conference, as has been reported conveyed to him the information in the in the press, agreement has been reached question asked by the honourable member between the Australian Gas Light Company for Balmain did not tell the whole story and the Commonwealth Government to either, because Ibrox Park high school has negotiate the transfer of this project to the had more than two teachers above the num­ Commonwealth. I might add that the com­ ber granted to any other high school of pany agreed to these discussions and to similar size in the past couple of years, to negotiate with the Commonwealth only be­ cope with the number of migrant children at cause of the insistence of the Common­ that school. This school has had the addi­ wealth, which by sheer weight of tional teachers because of the high migrant resources would be able· to frustrate the content in its enrolment; and it still has those planning of the development by the Aus­ additional teachers. Ibrox Park, I can assure tralian Gas Light Company. the honourable member for Balmain, not only has the same number of teachers as any Mr EINFELD: We are delighted. 251 4002 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice Mr FIFE: To answer the comment of the he was speaking on behalf of his own gov­ Deputy Leader of the Opposition, it is a ernment and would respect the decision of New South Wales company that has been the environmental inquiry at present taking operating in this State for the benefit of the place. At the conclusion of the inquiry I State for over a century. have no doubt that the New South Wales Government, the Commonwealth Govern­ Mr MuLocK: Under a protective ment and the Australian Gas Light Com­ charter. pany will have no difficulty in reaching Mr FIFE: There has been a degree of agreement over the route. In conclusion, I co-operation between that company and say to the honourable member for Albury governments of this State of all political and to members of the House generally that colours. The Opposition, when it was in the lateral to serve Wagga Wagga, Albury government, had a happy relationship with and Cootamundra will be built on schedule, the Australian Gas Light Company and as proposed initially by this Government would have no cause to criticize it. The with the Australian Gas Light Company, Commonwealth Government has indicated now in co-operation with the Common­ that it will honour all commitments entered wealth Government. into by the Australian Gas Light Company and will respect the conditions that have been applied by the New South Wales Gov­ LIVERPOOL DISTRICT HOSPITAL ernment in regard to this project. Until yes­ Mr P A CIULLO: I address my question terday there was a fear in my mind that without notice to the Minister for Health. conflict between the two could result in de­ In November last did the Minister publicly lay. I said in answer to a question a week give an undertaking at Liverpool that the or two ago that I felt that no organization Liverpool district hospital would receive was more capable of constructing the pipe­ $2.6 million from the 1972-73 loan funds line and keeping to the projected time scale to provide interim facilities for the next that had been announced by the Australian three years? Has the Minister since advised Gas Light Company than the company it­ the hospital board that it will receive only self. This was borne out by the discussions $400,000? If this is so, how can that deci­ held yesterday, and I am delighted that the sion be reconciled with the fact that the Commonwealth Government has agreed to existing facilities at the hospital are com­ allow the company to proceed while these pletely overloaded in trying to meet the negotiations take place. present health-care requirements and that a major crisis is inevitable by 1975 unless the In answer to the last part of the honour­ Government immediately allocates the able member's question, may I say that the necessary funds for the planning and con­ New South Wales Government indicated to struction of a new hospital? the Australian Gas Light Company that, in order to obtain a permit to survey and, Mr JAGO: The information set out by later, a licence to construct a pipeline, it the honourable member for Liverpool early would be necessary to follow a route ap­ in his question is quite correct. At an ambu­ proved by this Government, and that the lance function in Liverpool last November company must serve a number of rural a statement was made that the programme regions in conformity with the Govern­ for 1972-73 contained an item of $2.6 ment's decentralization policy. Also, the million for capital improvements at Liver­ company had to adopt a uniform tariff so pool district hospital, which is largely in the that industrial and domestic users in the condition it was in when opened in 1958. country would not be disadvantaged by In that area there is a substantial population comparison with those in the metropolitan pressure. This has been contributed to by area. the development of Green Valley and an­ other housing development at Macquarie The Hon. R. F. X. Connor gave me Fields. There have been developments at an assurance yesterday that the project Prospect and changes in the structure of the could proceed as planned. He indicated that defence establishment at Holsworthy. The Questions without Notice [27 MAR., 1973] Questions without Notice 4003 hospital has a major problem. I pay tribute long personal association. I shall supply the to the members of the board and the staff, full facts for the information of the board who have borne with a sense of responsi­ and the people of the city, who have shown bility the load cast upon them by substan­ such a great sense of responsibility in coping tial deficiencies and a serious situation. I with their present burden and awaiting could transfer some funds from Canterbury assistance that is long overdue. to Liverpool-- Mr K. J. STEWART: You make your own ALTO FORD PTY LIMITED decisions. Mr MORRIS: On Thursday, 22nd Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honourable March, the Deputy Leader of the Opposi­ member for Canterbury to order. tion asked me a question concerning a case in the magistrates' courts concerning Alto Mr JAGO: In the view of the division of Ford Pty Limited. I promised that I would research and development, which was give a full reply at question time today. headed until recently by Dr Sax, the Liver­ However, I have been advised by Smithers, pool district hospital has one of the biggest Warren & Lyons, solicitors, that there has problems of all the hospital systems in the been issued out of the Supreme Court a metropolitan area of Sydney. The reason statement of claim against John Fairfax & for the delay is that a committee has been Sons Limited. In the circumstances I am appointed by the Government to examine sure that the Deputy Leader of the Opposi­ the needs of major hospitals, particularly tion will agree that it would be inappropri­ those at Liverpool, Penrith and Gosford, ate for me to give a reply at this stage. and it has recommended that a small amount of assistance of some $400,000 or $500,000 should be granted immediately to BLACKTOWN BRICKWORKS provide some immediate relief and that an architect be authorized immediately to pre­ Mr PUNCH: On Thursday last the hon­ pare plans and to proceed for the calling of ourable member for Mount Druitt asked me tenders as soon as possible for a new hospi­ a question concerning the financing of the tal at Liverpool. This proposal was approved State brickworks and the sale of bricks from by Cabinet within the past two or three the new branch of the State brickworks at weeks and involves expenditure of about $28 Blacktown. Funding of the operations of million. Approval has been given for sub­ the State brickworks is a matter of some stantial amounts for the Nepean and Gos­ complexity, involving both capital funds and ford hospitals, but they are not the subject liquidity within the financial structure of the of the question. undertaking. The application made to the Treasury for a loan of $300,000, as refer­ May I say to the honourable member for red to in the honourable member's question, Liverpool that it is the view of the Govern­ is not to allow the undertaking to continue ment and of all concerned with health care operations, as indicated by him: it is part of that a small amount of temporary assistance the financing of the capital construction pro­ should be given to the Liverpool district gramme of the new branch at Blacktown. hospital to enable planning to be developed Major financial aspects of the State brick­ so that major additions can take place with works operations are always undertaken in a view to calling tenders not later than 1975. conjunction with the Treasury, and there is The first stage, speaking from memory, in­ nothing unusual in the State brickworks' volves an amount of $28 million, and the seeking a loan to finance the excellent new second $16 million. I am conscious of the plant that has been constructed in the hon­ great strain that has been borne by the hos­ ourable member's electorate. pital board in its present state of uncer­ On the question of the sale of the prod­ tainty over what is to take place. I am aware ucts from the Blacktown plant, close liaison of the strain placed on the honourable is being maintained between my department gentleman himself as well as the people of and the Housing Commission of New South the city of Liverpool, with which I have a Wales, with a view to these bricks being 4004 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Proposed Oil Refinery

used wherever possible in commtsswn from the Opposition side of the House. projects. It has to be remembered that Unless the Minister intends to indicate the State brickworks operates in a competi­ something more nearly approaching a point itve, commercial environment, and in so far of order than that, I cannot permit him to as government building is concerned its continue. products are used wherever the requirements Mr WILLIS: It has been clearly estab­ of the building specification can be met at a lished by long tradition that motions for competitive price. The honourable mem­ the adjournment of the House under Stand­ ber has referred to several Housing ing Order 49 are raised by honourable Commission projects at Green Valley members if the matter is of substantial and Cabramatta but since he has concern to their electorate. In this instance not indicated the particular type of the honourable member in whose electorate bricks concerned, I am unable to the oil refinery is proposed to be built is comment on the prices that he has quoted. present in the House, he is no longer suffer­ In any event, the price would depend upon ing from laryngitis, and he should be able the requirements set out in the building to speak for himself. specification for these projects. Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is competent for the honourable member for Georges River to move a motion on a matter relating to PROPOSED OIL REFINERY AT LUCAS his electorate, to any other electorate or HEIGHTS on any matter of general interest to the State. ADJOURNMENT (S.O. 49) Mr SPEAKER: I have received from the Mr F. J. WALKER: This project will honourable member for Georges River have a most serious effect on my electorate, notice under Standing Order 49 of his de­ for the proposed area of the oil refinery is sire to move the adjournment of the House only 100 yards across the river from my to discuss a specific matter that should have electorate. For that reason I am concerned urgent consideration, namely the recent about the matter, as are my constituents statement by the Minister for Decentralisa­ and many other people in New South tion and Development that an oil refinery Wales on whose behalf I raise it. The state­ will be established at Lucas Heights. ment to which I refer in my notice was made jointly on 22nd of this month by Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller, Minister for {3.58]: I move: Decentralisation and Development and That this House do now adjourn. Vice-President of the Executive Council, and the managing director of Ampol The motion being supported by five other Petroleum Limited, Mr A. E. Harris. honourable members, The Minister for Decentralisation and De­ Mr. F. J. WALKER: Mr Speaker-­ velopment, Mr J. B. Fuller, and the Managing Director of Ampol Petroleum Limited, Mr Mr WILLis: On a point of order. My A. E. Harris, anT'ounced today that Ampol point of order relates to the fact that the Petroleum had agreed, in principle, to the erec­ Lucas Heights site is clearly within the elec­ tion of a new refinery at Lucas Heights near torate of Heathcote. As the honourable Sydney. member for Heathcote is no longer suffer­ Discussions with the State Government have been held over a period of some months rela­ ing from laryngitis and is able to speak tive to Ampol's future refining requirements, on behalf of hls own constituents, I am particularly in New South Wales. wondering why he has not taken the lead Both the Government and Ampol have on this matter. given serious consideration as to the appropri­ ate place to site a new refinery. These studies {Interruption] and deliberations have led to the decision that Lucas Heights is the most desirable location. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I might perhaps This area meets the criteria of a number of have stopped the Minister for Education major factors relative to the siting of a re­ earlier had it not been for the interruptions finery, including the environmental factor Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4005

which has been given the most careful con­ ment of an oil refinery at Lucas Heights. sideration by the Government and the C<:>m­ That is a matter on which the Opposition in pany in all of the areas that have been studied. this Parliament fully agrees with the The capacity of the proposed refinery would federal Labor Government. Despite what be a minimum of 70,000 barrels per day. It is expected that the refinery would come on was said by the honourable member for stream in 1976 at which time Ampol would Monaro by way of interjection, this matter require its share of the new capacity. has a great deal of federal implication. It is expected that the capital outlay will be in the vicinity of $80 million. Mr MAsoN: On a point of order. I have listened with interest to the honourable Discussions had also taken place with. Total who have agreed to join with Ampol m t.J;le member for Georges River who has intro­ final processing engineering studie~. Total ~Ill duced this subject under the provisions of by 1976 require additional refinmg capacity Standing Order 49, which I submit allows and their decision to join in the proposed new refinery would lead to the closure of the present a member to bring before the House a refinery at Matraville when the new refinery specific matter in order that it may be is erected. debated. However, it is obvious that the This announcement created uproar not only honourable member for Georges River is in the area concerned but indeed throughout not seeking to discuss the specific matter referred to in his motion but rather to the Commonwealth. The decision to develop discuss the policy of the Labor Party. He a refinery at this location can be likened is, on behalf of the Opposition, cl~arly re­ only to the infamous Clutha scheme, which ferring to federal Government policy. All was similarly enforced upon an unwilling the arguments put forward so far are un­ public of New South Wales without proper related to the specific matter referred to consultation, advice or meaningful study of in the honourable member's motion. They possible harmful effects of that scheme. The are merely statements of policy of the Labor decision is a victory for the great oil moguls. Party. I submit that that type of statement, For some time planners acting on behalf if it is to be made in this House, ought of this Government have been expressing properly be made by the Leader of the the view that the Sydney metropolitan area Opposition. To bring forward a matter under has been built out for projects of this Standing Order 49 a degree of urgency nature. Moreover, the area involved is part must exist in relation to that matter. ObVI­ of a massive housing complex at Menai ously the Leader of the Opposition, who recently announced by this Government. earlier today moved urgency in this House, There is not a shadow of doubt about where did not regard this matter as urgent; he the Opposition stands in relation to this chose another topic. Therefore, I submit proposal. For many good reasons, which that the honourable member for Georges I shall give, the Opposition is implacably River under the guise of speaking to a and irrevocably opposed to locating an oil matte~ under Standing Order 49, is seeking refinery at Lucas Heights or, for that matter, to state the policy of the Labor Party and anywhere in the Sydney metropolitan area. is not discussing a specific matter. The first reason is that the federal Govern­ ment opposes the scheme. Mr AcTING-SPEAKER ( Mr DuNcAN) : Order! It is common knowledge to all Mr MAUGER: The federal Government honourable members that the matter raised has nothing to do with it. It is a State by the honourable member for Georges matter. River was announced after the sitting of Mr F. J. WALKER: The federal Labor the Parliament had concluded last week. Government has expressed opposition to the The announcement created a great deal of project. The Hon. Tom Uren, federal Min­ discussion relating to the siting of the re­ ister for Urban and Regional Development, has in the press on a number of occasions finery. I rule that the honourable member over the past few days, intimated that the is in order in bringing this matter forward federal Government would use all its con­ under the provisions of Standing Order 49. stitutional powers to prevent the establish- He is at liberty to make reference to the 4006 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights policies of any political party as to the siting member, in quoting federal Ministers and of a refinery, and at this stage I propose their policies, is giving voice in this Cham­ to allow him to continue. ber to opinions that rightly belong in an­ other House. As members of the federal Mr F. J. WALKER: The federal Labor Parliament have no right to be heard in this Government has allocated $1 million for House, I submit that the honourable mem­ a study of environment problems in the ber has no right to read out those policies Botany Bay-Georges River basin. Mill in detail. This is the sovereign State of New Creek, a tributary of the Georges River, South Wales. Commonwealth policies and is in close proximity of the proposed re­ opinions of the federal House are not im­ finery and that creek is the sub.iect of this portant to us and we do not want to hear Commonwealth inquiry, which is a joint them. I submit that you should rule the inquiry involving the Academy of Science, the honourable member for Georges River the Academy of Social Science and the out of order for attempting to put federal Academy of Humanities working in liaison point of view in a State parliament. with the Commonwealth Department of Science, the Department of Conservation Mr AcTING-SPEAKER ( Mr DuNCAN) : and the Department of Urban and Regional Order! The motion moved by the honour­ Development and the New South Wales able member for Georges River is to the Department of Environment and Depart­ effect that the Minister for Decentralisation ment of Local Government. The work and Development having recently an­ of all those bodies would be gravely and nounced that an oil refinery would be estab­ deleteriously affected should a scheme of lished at Lucas Heights, this Parliament this nature, involving tremendous pollution should give urgent consideration to the mat­ of air, water and soil, be allowed to de­ ter. As I have said before, this proposal velop without first there being a thorough has caused public controversy. I believe the investigation. honourable member for Georges River is The second reason for our opposition entitled, in putting his arguments, to make to this proposal is that the federal Minister passing reference to statements by members for Minerals and Energy, the Hon. R. F. X. in another parliament, but I ask him to Connor, has announced that the Australian stick as closely as he can to the terms of the Government aims to have a national fuel motion. policy. The siting of oil refineries is clearly Mr F. J. WALKER: Thank you, Mr a matter that would impinge on the forma­ Acting-Speaker. Briefly, to finalize my com­ tion of such a policy. ment, as I was saying before I was inter­ rupted, the proposed establishment of an Mr HEALEY: On a point of order. This oil refinery at Lucas Heights critically affects debate is taking place in the Parliament of the national transport policy that has been the sovereign State of New South Wales. announced by the Hon. C. K. Jones, federal This Parliament has power to legislate with­ Minister for Transport and Minister for in the framework of the State constitution Civil Aviation, involving a national survey in order that it may govern the State. The of passenger and freight movements. For honourable member for Georges River is some time there has been a joint federal and giving voice in this House to decisions of State inquiry into the matter. This Govern­ another government. He is giving voice to ment is willing to become involved in such members of the federal Parliament who are joint inquiries. It is all right for Govern­ not entitled to a say in this Parliament. The ment members to take points of order- honourable member for Georges River is giving voice to policies of another govern­ Mr BARRACLOUGH: On a point of order. ment that have nothing to do with legisla­ I draw your attention, Mr Acting-Speaker, tion or the government policy of this State. to The Decisions of The Honourable Sir I suggest, sir, that members of the federal Kevin Ellis, K.B.E., LL.B., B.Ec., Speaker House, whether Liberal or Labor supporters, of the Legislative Assembly of New South have no right to a voice in this House. For Wales, during the 41st and 42nd Parlia­ this reason I suggest that the honourable ments. Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4007

Mr CRABTREE: What has that to do with deeply concerned about this matter. The it? federal Parliament is concerned with de­ fence matters as well. The nuclear reactor Mr BARRACLOUGH: If you will be at Lucas Heights is a prime military target. quiet-- Fuel is another matter for defence con­ Mr CRABTREE: You are making a sideration. It may not be advisable to put mockery of Parliament. fuel dumps near a nuclear reactor. If I get an opportunity I might go into that Mr BARRACLOUGH: I am not. Mr Acting­ aspect later. I believe the Commonwealth Speaker, if it were not for these interjec­ Government has been grossly and unneces­ tions-- sarily insulted by this Government's failure Mr ACTING-SPEAKER: Order! I shall deal to consult it about this proposal. The next with the interjections. The honourable point with which I shall deal is the question member should get on with his point of of open government. It is the Opposition's order. contention that the people of New South Wales are entitled to prior consultation and Mr BARRACLOUGH: I refer to this clear the opportunity to express their concern on statement by the Speaker: matters of major national concern. The Leader of the Opposition may raise a matter of State-wide importance upon the Mr HEALEY: On a point of order. Stand­ Motion for the adjournment of the House. ing Order 49 requires that the matter dis­ cussed on such a motion for adjournment The honourable member for Georges River be a specific matter. In this case the specific is saying that this is a State-wide matter. matter is an oil refinery that is proposed He has made that quite clear. We are aware to be constructed in the Menai area. The that he is attacking an Australian-owned honourable member for Georges River is company, Ampol. Mr Speaker also ruled now beginning a peroration about open that: government. I submit that this has nothing Ministers and the Leader of the Opposition to do with the subject under discussion. may speak upon matters of State-wide interest. He has already run the gamut of a large I put it to you, Mr Acting-Speaker, that number of subjects, having dealt with hous­ the honourable member for Georges River ing proposals in the area and some other is trifling with a decision of the honourable matters. He even touched for a few Speaker of this House. moments on defence. Now, in this debate Mr ACTING-SPEAKER (Mr DUNCAN): under Standing Order 49, he has decided Order! In the ruling to which the honour­ to take up open government as a subject able member referred, Mr Speaker was of debate. If he wants to discuss open gov­ dealing with debate on the motion of the ernment he may do so by moving another adjournment to terminate the sitting. This substantive motion, in which event we on debate is on a motion for adjournment of this side of the House would be entitled the House under Standing Order 49. I to debate it with him. I submit that dis­ rule again that the honourable member for cussion on open government, whether in Georges River is quite in order. the sovereign State of New South Wales or in the Commonwealth Parliament, is not Mr F. J. WALKER: Unfortunately I the specific matter for discussion on this have had the opportunity to speak for only motion under Standing Order 49. five minutes in the last fifteen minutes, but I will try to say as much as I can in the time Mr ACTING-SPEAKER: Order! It is true remaining. There is to be a joint federal­ that the honourable member for Georges State inquiry on public land use in this River has mentioned such matters as hous­ area. We know of federal proposals relat­ ing, but he did so in putting the situation ing to the use of military land in the Hols­ worthy area, and of housing proposals in as he sees it in regard to establishment of the Menai area. Both the federal Govern­ the oil refinery. I must, however, acknow­ ment and the State Government should be ledge the point raised by the honourable 4008 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights member for Davidson that open govern­ Mr MAUGER: On a point of order. The ment bas little to do with the motion. Tha honourable member has referred first to the honourable member for Georges River mismanagement of the State Planning might be willing to tie his remarks on open Authority and now he is saying that he government in with the motion. If he is knows what was the Cabinet decision. All not, I suggest that he continue in another I can say is that the time he has taken up vein. could be used to better advantage. Instead he is trying to prevent an Australian oil Mr F. J. WALKER: Thank you, Mr company from making a living on behalf of Acting-Speaker. I was about to say when Australians. I was interrupted that the way the Govern­ ment went about making the announcement, Mr ACTING-SPEAKER: Order! No point without any prior advice or consultation of order is involved. with the people of New South Wales, affects Mr F. J. WALKER: In the middle of the principle of open government. That is the State Planning Authority's deliberations the issue I was about to raise. That, of this decision came from the Department of course, directly impinges upon the subject Decentralisation and Development. Here matter of the motion. One would think that we have an arrogant and ignorant govern­ the Government had learned a lesson from ment plunging into a decision involving the the public contempt heaped upon it follow­ lives and wellbeing of hundreds of thous­ ing the Clutha scandal. The essence of ands of New South Wales citizens without parliamentary democracy is subverted when adequate or proper inquiry or expert advice a government denies the Opposition and the except from the oil companies. general public prior advice and consultation on such projects. Mr GRIFFITH: The honourable member should read his political history. Another question is whether this scheme is necessary at all-whether Mr F. J. WALKER: I shall read a little there is a need in Australia for another political history. It includes the fact that a oil refinery. There is considerable doubt Labor government established the oil re­ about whether we should have another oil finery at Kurnell. This Government pays refinery. Our information on this matter lip service to the concept of decentraliza­ comes from different sources, and some of tion but we have the unbelievable situation it comes somewhat more indirectly than in which the Minister for Decentralisation that available to the federal Minister. Our and Development has decided to set up a information is that this very question has $80 million complex in the middle of Syd­ been of concern to the State Planning ney. He is supposed to be the Minister for Authority. In fact the State Planning Decentralisation and Development. Con­ Authority was delving into it-it was in the middle of its deliberations-when the trast his action with what occurred in 1954 Government came out with the bombshell when the Liberal Party Leader of the Oppo­ announcement that a refinery would be sition Lieutenant-Colonel Robson-they established in that area. The State Planning were all lieutenant-colonels in those days­ Authority was indeed shabbily treated by opposed the establishment of the refinery at the Government. It is not at liberty to say Kurnell. I shall quote from page 1616 of so publicly, of course, but we of the Oppo­ Hansard just what Lieutenant-Colonel Rob­ sition are. Initially, when Ampol submitted its application, it wanted the refinery at so.n bad to say about the oil refinery at Parklea or Kurnell. The State Planning Kurnell: Authority was given the job of investigating This is a glaring example of centralisation, the whole question of the site for another and it would seem that there has been no real oil refinery. Then Cabinet decided that the attempt to establish the project away from the heavily congested metropolis. authority's. terms of reference should be Does tbe Government stand for decentralisa­ limited to two sites-Kurnell and Lucas tion? This bill shows that it is following a Heights. That was the decision of Cabinet. policy of concentration, · ·· · · · · · · · · · · Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4009

Those criticisms by the Leader of the Oppo­ ment plans to have 250,000 people living sition of the day against the Labor Govern­ in the near future. Not only that, the area is. ment are equally valid today. Then the 100 yards across the river from my elec­ father of the honourable member for Ten­ torate. Every time a southerly or south­ terfield, Lieutenant-Colonel Bruxner-an­ westerly wind blows the fumes will be in my other lieutenant-colonel--said, at page electorate. 1619: Mr GRIFFITH: How many miles away is. I make two clear statements. If ever an it? honourable member on the Government side again uses the word "decentralisation" in this Mr F. J. WALKER: It is only five min­ House or on the hustings, the angels will laugh. This was the Government's great chance to utes drive in the car. prove that it really stands for decentralisation of industry. It threw that chance away, and it Mr BARRACLOUGH: At what speed does. was afraid to come to this House in the initial the honourable member drive? stages of the negotiations with the company because it would have been told some of the Mr F. J. WALKER: Within the speed things that I am about to say tonight. limit. It is only five minutes drive in the The Minister for Education who was then car once anyone is across the river. Mill the Opposition honourable member for Creek is the most polluted creek in New Earlwood had similar things to say a:bout South Wales with virtually no oxygen con­ decentralization; but because of interjec­ tent and the Government proposes to add tions I have not the time to go on with them to that situation the industrial pollution all. He opposed the Kurnell complex on from this petro-chemical complex. Duck the ground that it was against decentraliza­ Creek at Granville is a biological desert and tion policy. The same thing is to go on at has been for years, mainly because of the Lucas Heights. The most important thing actions of the Shell oil refinery. We have is the effect on the environment. Oil re­ had publicity from the Shell oil refinery fineries cause a tremendous amount of pol­ about how it will improve the situation. Aus­ lution in the form of 35 tons a day of tralia is probably one of the worst air­ sulphur dioxide and emissions of hydrogen polluted countries. It produces 1 per cent of sulphides. Not so long ago people all over the world's sulphur-dioxide air pollution Sydney were complaining about the terrible although Australia's population is equal stink that came from the Shell oil refinery only to one-third of 1 per cent of total in the electorate of Granville. The whole world population. Most of that 1 per cent of of the Parramatta River valley is polluted. sulphur-dioxide pollution is in the Sydney metropolitan area where the population is [Interruption] hardly one-third of 1 per cent of the world's total population. Sydney is probably the Mr AcTING-SPEAKER: Order! I call the most polluted city in the world in terms of honourable member for Dubbo to order. sulphur-dioxide, but the Government in­ Mr F. J. WALKER: People in the Parra­ tends to build another refinery complex in matta Valley area cannot open their win­ the Sydney metropolitan area. dows in the daytime because of the pollu­ My next point is visual pollution. Any­ tion from the petro-chemical plants in the one looking at the Kurnell plant or other area. The honourable member for complexes could hardly describe them as Maroubra has brought petitions before thls visually satisfying. They consist of disgrace­ House about the Total complex in his elec­ ful-looking buildings and storage tanks. The torate. The concentration of sulphur­ proposed complex is to be situated in an dioxide, hydrogen sulphide and other noxious gases ~hat escape from these plants area where land is already selling for is polluting the air and ruining the lives of $20,000 or $25,000 a building block. The hundreds of thousands of citizens in the price is disgracefully high but this is be­ metropolitan area, yet another $80 million cause the land is in a salubrious area with petro-chemical complex is to be built at magnificent views. It will no longer be a Lucas Heights~an area where the G<:>vem~ !')ic~ !lrea once this petro-chemical complex 4010 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights has been established there. The State Par­ site. They took the view that, as it cost liamentary Labor Party is implacably op­ about $20,000 to have a feasibility study posed to the oil refinery at Kurnell or any made, there was not much point in going other place in Sydney. We think that the round looking for sites, spending this Government should have second thoughts money, and being knocked back by the and not leave it to the federal Government responsible body, the State Planning to use its plenary powers to prevent the Authority. establishment of this new refinery. Mr MALLAM: How much an acre is the Mr CRABTREE: Mr Acting-Speaker, be­ company paying for the land at Lucas cause of the tiine taken up by interjections Heights? I should like to move for an extension of Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I have not got to time. that yet. This is a decision in principle. If Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (MR DUNCAN): the honourable member would only listen, Order! It is not competent for the honour­ I shall explain these things to him. The able member to move for an extension of companies took the view that the onus was time. on the Government to provide alternative sites. We thought this was a reasonable Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Pre­ thing, for they cannot very well be expected mier and Treasurer [4.28]: The Government to go round spending $20,000 on feasibility is a little disappointed that the Leader of and impact studies. The companies made it the Opposition-or failing him, the Deputy clear that they would prefer to come to the Leader of the Opposition-did not deal with Sydney area, fairly close to Sydney, because this matter. If it is as important as the Op­ of the greater number of outlets for their position would have us believe and in ac­ products. They have a proposition to go to cordance with press statements, we should Queensland as an alternative, but they pre­ have thought-with all respect to the hon­ fer to come here. I have no doubt that the ourable member for Georges River-that Queensland Government would welcome the Leader or the Deputy Leader should them, but we do not want them to go there, have had the carriage of this subject. If the for we want this $80 million industry in House is interested, I shall try to give some New South Wales, where it will employ background information and to correct about 300 people and add industrial strength some misapprehensions. First, we might to our State. We do not want industries recognize that a proposal to build an oil driven a:way from this State if we can place refinery of this type is always bound to them on a satisfactory site. attract opposition from some people. It is likP- the second airport controversy. Most In order to examine the alternative sites persons would say that this kind of industrial to Parklea, which was rejected, a represen­ installation is needed but they do not want tative committee was set up. There has it near them. I am afraid that is the way it been a lot of talk about by-passing the State will always be. Planning Authority and all sorts of things, but the committee that was set up by the Mr L. B. KELLY: The Premier would not Government to examine alternative sites want it at Manly or Collaroy. consisted of the director of the Department Sir ROBERT ASKIN: No land suitable of Development, the chairman of the State for the ouroose is available there. The situa­ Planning Authority, the under-secretary of tion is that Ampol and Total, the two com­ the Department of Lands, and the director oanies. sought approval for a site at Parklea. of the Department of Environment. They I think this is well known but I shaH put it are the people who made the unanimous on record. They spent considerable money recommendations. I refer also to the stupid statements being made in the press. A state­ on a feasibility study but, when the land ment was made by Mr Johnson; I think he was examined by the State Planning is a Minister in the federal Government; I Authority, their proposal was rejected and am not sure who is who down there, but I the companies were asked to find another know he is the local member. He said in Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4011 today's press that the New South Wales The Ampol and Total people in conjunc­ Government has by-passed the State Plan­ tion have said that it is satisfactory from ning Authority by approving the proposal. their preliminary viewpoint. If the Ampol­ Of course, the chairman of the State Plan­ Total combination decided to go ahead­ ning Authority was a member of the com­ and I shall say something in a minute mittee that unanimously recommended the that casts some doubt on this-the first satisfactory nature of this site. thing necessary would be for them to have a feasibility and impact study. I am in­ The four gentlemen I have mentioned formed this will take up to twelve months considered the alternatives and came up and will cost a lot of money. They want to with two proposals; the first was unaccep­ know before embarking on the studies table by the Government, on environment whether or not they will have the site. It is grounds. We had a good look at the sec­ only fair for the companies to know before­ ond one. The voluminous report that had hand that, provided all the other conditions been submitted, complete with annexures, are met, the site will be available. At this maps, graphs and goodness knows what, time the State Government sees no reason contained a recommendation in the first at all for departing from the decision that paragraph that this elevated area at Lucas we have announced; we adhere to it quite Heights had advantages from a pollution firmly, subject to the conditions that have control viewpoint when compared with already been announced. other inland areas. So much for the pollu­ However, a spokesman for the Common­ tion aspect. In regard to the housing aspect, wealth Government has made it clear that I have a report from the Minister for Hous­ he opposes the site. I do not know whether ing, which he gave to me at question time. he was speaking for himself or the Com­ It says: monwealth Government. I can understand the position of the oil companies. I am The Housing Commission has withdrawn the housing area proclamation previously imposed informed that though we told them we were over certain land at Menai and now has no quite definite that this site would be avail­ plans for any construction or development in able, provided they could meet the condi­ that locality. tions we laid down, they, not wishing to In terms of the Commonwealth's proposals become embroiled in an inter-government for the Liverpool/Holsworthy /Menai army area, two meetings of the Commonwealth­ conflict, are conducting certain negotiations. State committee have been held to examine This is New South Wales Crown land, and the feasibility of such a development, but these we said it would be available. According discussions have been of a very preliminary to this report there would be a minimum of nature only, and have mainly centred on the problem with pollution; further, I remind area of the main stores depot closest to Liver­ pool and Macquarie Fields and hence a con­ honourable members of the contents of the siderable distance away from Lucas Heights. Housing Commission report that I have read. We said, "If you go ahead and have The Government is going on official in­ a feasibility study conducted and meet the formation processed by people who have conditions laid down, so far as the New had lifelong experience in these fields. Not South Wales Government is concerned, the many sites in the metropolitan area could site is available". I think that is a fair accommodate a project of this kind. After proposition for them. giving the matter full consideration, based However, the companies do not wish to on these departmental reports, and this re­ become embroiled in a conflict between the port of four men of eminence-! do not two governments on a matter of principle. think the Opposition side would deny that; I have been advised that they do not wish I think it appointed several of them to this, and I can understand their attitude. At their positions-the Government came to the moment I am advised, rightly or wrongly the conclusion that the Lucas Heights site -but I believe it to be true-that they are was the best from an environment view­ conducting certain negotiations of their own, point. quite separate from any suggestion from 4012 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights the State Government. They are doing this to look for another site, the onus obviously entirely off their own bat, and are trying is on the Commonwealth unless it wants to ascertain the attitude of the Common­ the industry to fizzle out. A responsible body wealth Government. I am referring to the of people run this big all-Australian organi­ attitude of the Commonwealth Govern­ zation. Would they say that $80 million ment, not the attitude of one particular should be expended if it were not absolutely Minister, who seems to be hot under the necessary? I do not countenance that collar about it, and obviously does not know thought for a moment, though one or two much about it, in view of the extract I read speakers have said that it may not be neces­ a moment ago. sary. People with business acumen and The State Government's decision is clear. knowledge of an industry certainly would not embark on a huge expenditure of this If Ampol-Total wish to proceed and meet all the conditions, and after a feasibility study kind unless it is absolutely imperative. In are satisfied that it is a good site and still a nutshell the situation is that if the com­ wish to bring this great industry to New panies decide to proceed, the approval given South Wales with all of its employment by the Government of New South Wales opportunities, thus strengthening our indus­ stands. It is up to the companies to meet trial status, as far as we are concerned Lucas our requirements. They must satisfy them­ Heights is the place and our approval stands. selves on feasibility and impact studies, If, on the other hand, the companies after which cost a lot of money. Those respon­ discussions feel compelled by any Com­ sible should say whether or not they can monwealth Government pressure which may satisfy our conditions. We played our part be applied to them, to pull out of the Lucas by finding a site for their consideration. Heights proposal, that is entirely their own This was done by an expert committee in­ business. We put no pressure on them. We volving four heads of departments. The say that, in our opinion, this is the best committee could not have been more rep­ site and it is available so long as they meet resentative. Among its members were rep­ the conditions. We do not put any hind­ resentatives from the State Planning rance in their way. But if the Common­ Authority and the Department of Environ­ wealth Government puts pressure on them, ment. They looked at the matter carefully. it is up to them to decide whether they will The report is detailed. If honourable mem­ stand fast and proceed with the approval. bers opposite want to drive this industry If they do not, no doubt they will be looking out of New South Wales into Queensland, for another site. If they decide, under pres­ where it will be welcomed with open arms sure from Commonwealth sources, to look for another site, the onus will rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Common­ Mr EINFELD: We already have a refinery wealth Government to find another site that is satisfactory to Ampol-Total so far as in­ here. dustrial and commercial considerations are Sir ROBERT ASKIN: There is a re­ concerned, with reasonable access to the many outlets for their products in the Syd­ finery at Kurnell, which was approved by a ney metropolitan area. But lest there be former Labor Government. The former some mistake about it, if the Common­ Labor Government overrode objections by wealth suggests another site, it must be one members of the public and by the Opposi­ that is satisfactory to the State Planning tion at that time. With any big industry Authority. there is always a difficulty related to loca­ We do not propose to have the Com­ tion. Members of the community consider monwealth Government tell us where the it all right as long as the site is not near their site will be. The land that has been made homes. People at Kurnell said they did not available is State Crown land. If the com­ want an oil refinery in their area but it panies feel that they are under pressure from was pushed on to them. It will be a hard the Commonwealth Government and have job to find another satisfactory site. One Sir Robert Askin] /

Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4013 cannot expect the company to spend an­ and Minister for Highways, who happens other $20,000 looking for alternative sites to be the planning Minister in this State, only to be refused permission to occupy controlling the State Planning Authority. those areas. Maybe he has some misgivings about the situation, particularly when the outline plan Negotiations are under way and until that was produced by his own State Plan­ they are completed there is not a great deal ning Authority proposes that this site be a I can do other than what I have tried to future urban area, and that is why he did do, which is to set out where this Govern­ not make a statement on the matter. The ment stands. Unless there are developments site for the oil refinery is in the future urban of the kind to which I have referred, the area proposed in the outline plan that was Government stands on its announcement, produced by the State Planning Authority which was not loosely based or arrived at back in 1968. Less than five years later a quickly. On the contrary, it was based on proposition is brought forward for the expert opinion and on a close study of the establishment of an oil refinery. whole project-a study not of two proposi­ tions, as someone has said, but of eight pos­ What the Opposition has been saying is sibilities, all of which, except one, were that there should be an open inquiry into ruled out of order. the proposition of having an oil refinery here in the Sydney metropolitan area, not speci­ Mr MULOCK: Where? fically dealing with this site, though it should Sir ROBERT ASKIN: Jervis Bay, Koora­ be included, but dealing with all the other proposals that have been made and future gang Island at Newcastle, Minto, Moore­ proposals that may be made. The first the bank, Helensburgh, Parklea, Kumell Pen­ public heard of this proposition was an an­ insula, and Lucas Heights. The decision nouncement by the Minister for Decentralis­ was not arrived at loosely. Other places ation and Development who sits in another were given consideration and their merits place where he cannot be got at by mem­ or lack of merit studied. We cannot agree bers of this Chamber. He is a man who has to the proposal that has been put forward in no direct responsibility to the people of support of this motion. We have made our New South Wales. He has made an impor­ position clear. I do not know what the tant announcement that will affect in no un­ future holds because negotiations in which certain manner the environment of this we are not participating in any way are at great metropolitan area of Sydney. No real present taking place. Until we know the concern is being shown for the people who outcome of them we will not know exactly live in the area now. I should like to know whether the Lucas Heights proposition is the view held by the honourable member for to go ahead. We await the outcome with Miranda. Does he really favour the pro· interest. Some matters do not work out as posal? What is the attitude of the honour­ expected and when the Government has able member for Hurstville about the propo­ further information it may be necessary to sition? They are silent. bring the matter back to the House in order to give more detail. That is the situation as Mr MAsON: I support it. far as the Government is concerned. We Mr HILLS: Do the honourable member cannot agree to the motion. for Miranda and the honourable member Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the Op­ for Hurstville support it? They are men position [4.47]: I was interested to see the who directly represent people in the St Premier and Treasurer enter this debate. A George area. What do they say about Minister who has been elected by the people whether an oil refinery should be estab­ of New South Wales has now made an an­ lished on this site? If one examines the out· nouncement about the site. An extra­ line plan produced in 1968 by the State ordinary thing to my way of thinking was Planning Authority, one sees adjacent to it that the original announcement was not the Menai housing proposal. This afternoon made by the Minister for Local Government I beard a statement by the Premier to the 4014 Proposed Oil Re/iHery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights effect that the Minister for Housing had ad­ that they should not proceed, and should vised him that the Housing Commission the companies decide not to proceed, the had no direct interest. We had a debate in New South Wales Government would go this House recently because the Minister for along with that decision. Of course it would. Housing was not prepared to exercise his If the companies decide not to proceed with right to secure land in the Menai area for building an oil refinery at this particular the purpose of establishing Housing Com­ site or at any other site, what else could mission dwellings. That was the subject of the Government do? The Government has the debate. The Opposition realizes the need apparently decided to stand firm on its de­ in this community for refining facilities. Our cision to dispose of 330 acres owned by concern is that those facilities be situated at the Crown for the purpose of establishing proper points. This afternoon the Premier an oil refinery. This land is located in an and Treasurer tried his old tactic by saying area already proposed by the State Planning that the refinery might be taken to Brisbane. Authority in its outline plan as future urban I do not know whether he is aware of it or development. not, but Ampol already has a refinery in Brisbane. The proposed refinery site is adjacent to an area at Menai, which also is urban­ Mr MAUGER: They could enlarge the one proposed. In fact, it is expected that the that is in Brisbane. Menai area, about one and a half miles away from the proposed refinery, will be Mr HILLS: That was not what the Pre­ developed before 1980. This whole area mier said. What he said was a lot of arrant has been circumscribed by the State Plan­ nonsense. He was trying to create the im­ ning Authority for future urban develop­ pression that the Labor Party was attempt­ ment and land there is owned by the New ing to force industry out of New South South Wales Government and the Common­ Wales. More employment has been lost to wealth Government. The Commonwealth this State since this Government came into has ·already intimated that it will release its office than ever could be provided in this land for urban development. It would be refinery. That comment relates particularly a tragedy of the first order should a refinery to the motor vehicle industry, which has be established at Lucas Heights. The area been established in Victoria. These are the is ideal for residential development. Every facts. If the honourable member for Bur­ week the price of land in New South Wales wood, who wants to interject, would like increases substantially. In fact, since this me to give the facts to him it would be my Government came to office the price of a pleasure to do so. He might be able to raise building block bas increased by 300 per the matter at a party meeting. The Opposi­ cent. tion is concerned about the attitude of the Government to the environment. Exactly The Lucas Heights area would be a the same thing happened in relation to the pleasant district in which to live and already gas pipe line. Not until the Government facilities exist for water, sewerage, drainage was forced into it was the current public and other services. The area is close to inquiry about the gas pipe line commenced. Sydney's southern beaches and it is not far The Opposition wants a public inquiry into from the centre of the city. The Common­ decisions concerning sites for important wealth owns thousands of acres in this projects such as this oil refinerv. vicinity and has intimated its willingness to This is an issue of vital public concern make them available for subdivision for the and should be brought entirely into the advantage of our people. The Sydney metro­ open. I do not believe that the companies politan area has a growth rate of about want to be involved in a cloak and dagger 500,000 people every eight years. Despite operation such as that entered into by this this the New South Wales Government has Government. This afternoon we have heard a suggestion from the Premier that should decided to permit the development of an oil the Commonwealth Government in its nego­ refinery slap bang in the middle of an area tiations with the companies convince them that is ideal for residential development. Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4015

An oil refinery would be completely repug­ the Australian Oil Refining Pty Ltd nant to people who might reside nearby. complex. However, that advice of the Cum­ The motion moved by the honourable mem­ berland County Council and its chief plan­ ber for Georges River has not been put ner was overridden by the Labor Premier, forward lightly. The honourable member the Ron. J. J. Cahill. The Government's lives in and represents an electorate adjacent decision was put into effect by a leading to this proposed development. member of the Labor Party in this House, the honourable member for Castlereagh, The Government should take into account who at that time among other things was the great deal of public opposition that has Minister for Local Government. That was developed following the announcement of a mistake made in the fifties. this proposal. Instead of the Premier hoping to be rescued from a serious situation by The present Government of New South the Commonwealth Government interven­ Wales had two alternatives in relation to ing, he should have the good grace to with­ the siting of another oil refinery; it could draw at this early stage. Obviously he is follow in the foosteps of its predecessor and looking to the Commonwealth for an excuse approve the development of another oil re­ so that he might withdraw from this un­ finery at Kurnell or approve the develop­ tenable position. At the very least, a public ment of a refinery in another part of the inquiry into this proposal should be under­ State. Members of the Opposition have taken. jumped on to the bandwaggon and sug­ gested that the oil refinery ought to be Sir CHARLES CUTLER (Orange), located in a country region. That is good Deputy Premier, Minister for Local Govern­ politics and I have followed that course for ment and Minister for Highways [4.57]: I some considerable time. The fact is that dic­ noticed that the honourable member for tatorship bas not yet reached New South Heathcote rose to speak. I was rather sur­ Wales, though it is well on the way in Can­ prised when the honourable member for berra. In answer to interjections from Op­ Georges River led in this debate as I thought position benches, the Premier named the the Leader of the Opposition or the Deputy eight sites that had been considered for this Leader of the Opposition might have led project. They were, in order: Jervis Bay, on a matter considered to be highly im­ Kooragang Island at Newcastle, Moore bank portant and that should they not do so, in the Green Hills area, Minto, Helensburgh, the honourable member for Heathcote, as Parklea, Kurnell Peninsula and Lucas the member representing the area in which Heights. this development is proposed, might lead. I was reliably informed by members of the Not one member of the Opposition in Opposition that the honourable member for debate in this House has suggested an Heathcote was suffering from an acute alternative site, with the exception of one attack of laryngitis, though he did not seem honourable member who said that an oil to be suffering from that indisposition when refinery should be developed on the north I -heard him speaking on the telephone just coast. Fair enough, and that ought be a before lunch. Apparently he has recovered. proposition. I remind honourable members again that we in New South Wales do not It is true that mistakes have been made live under a dictatorship and this Govern­ in relation to the location of oil refineries ment cannot direct an Australian organiza­ in this State. On that point I agree with the tion on where it should establish its refinery. Leader of the Opposition. A mistake was Some time ago the companies advised the made in 1954-a serious mistake indeed. Government that they were considering Attention was invited to this mistake by the three sites. The locating of a refinery at honourable member for Georges River. Lucas Heights was determined not by That mistake was made despite the advice the Government but by the companies of the Cumberland County Council and its chief planner, Mr Fraser, who recom­ themselves. The three sites under final con­ mended strongly that Kurnell should not be sideration were Parklea, Kurnell and Lucas selected as the site for the development of Heights. 4016 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] at Lucas Heights Mr F. J. WALKER: Who is running this The Premier said that the subcommittee .State-Ampol? that looked into this matter consisted of the director of the Department of Decentralisa­ Sir CHARLES CUTLER: Ampol hap­ tion and Development and a number of pe~s to be an ~u~tralian company prepared senior officers. It suits the Opposition at this to mvest $80 milhon, not of foreign capital moment to stress decentralization. Nothing .as has been suggested by the federal Minis­ would suit the Government better than to ter for Urb_an and Regional Development, h~ve_decentralization operating in respect of but Australian capital. This project would this mdustry. The fact is that Ampol and employ 300 people but apparently the Labor Total will go to a Sydney or near-Sydney Pa~y will endeavour to prevent it. Ampol area, or to Victoria or Lytton near Brisbane d~cid~d that. from an economic point of in Queensland. Those are the alternatives. view It was mterested in three sites-Park­ What do we do-have an $80 million Aus­ lea, Kurnell and Lucas Heights. I have gone tralian company providing 300 jobs go to back over the history of this matter. Am­ Lytton in Queensland or some place in pol's interest in establishing an additional Victoria or do we try as best we can to oil refinery in New South Wales or at least make a site available in New South Wales? on the eastern coast of Australia goes back I was referring to the committee that looked to 1970 when in conjunction with H. C. into this matter. It consisted of the director Sleigh Ltd it conducted a general study into of the Department of Decentralisation the such a project. Possible sites were investi­ chairman of the State Planning Authority­ gated in New South Wales and in Victoria. it is _claimed that the State Planning At one stage the most favoured location Authonty knew nothing about this but the was at Western Port in Victoria. Apparently chairman was on the committee-the under­ it _is the inten~ion. of the Labor Party in secretary of the Department of Lands and thts State to dnve mdustry to Victoria. The the director of the Department of the site of Western Port was abandoned by the Environment. company in July, 1971, and Kooragang Island at Newcastle was put forward as an Mr F. J. WALKER: I did not say that. :Jlternative. The Kooragang site was also abandoned by the company because it was Sir CHARLES CUTLER: Apparently the considered to be uneconomic and-for the honourable member for Georges River dis­ same reason-that with an oil refinery at owns his federal colleague the Ron. L. Kurnell the company did not consider any Johnson, who said that the State Planning other site further north than Newcastle to be Authority knew nothing about this matter. economic. That was a decision of the com­ No one can criticize the Government for its pany itself. In 1972 Ampol put forward the de~entraliz~tion policy. It has done every­ proposal for the site at Parklea near Black­ thmg poss1ble to achieve decentralization. town in .the Baulkham Hills shire. The ac­ If honourable members opposite want to do ceptability of that site was rejected in July, so~ething for decentralization they will ask 1972. Then came the joint approach of the1r federal colleagues to provide incentives Ampol and Total in respect of the Parklea to industries to establish themselves in site. That was considered in December country areas of New South Wales. I do 1972, by the joint committee of which th~ not withhold any blame from the former Premier spoke. After that the Ampol-Total federal Government. It did not offer any group considered the three sites at Parklea incentives. So far the new Labor Govern­ Kurnell and Lucas Heights and decided ment has not done anything except to in­ that they were the only ones that would dicate its interest in growth centres and I suit it from an economic point of view. appreciate that. Until the federal Govern­ Both companies emphasized that any ment offers incentives we shall not be able new refinery to be established here must be to do more than we have done in this State. conveniently situated to the major market ·Let me emphasize that in New South Wales outlet and to be available to that market we have assisted 700 industries to decen­ no later than at the end of 1976. tralize. [27 MAR., 1973] at Lucas Heights 4017 Mr DAY: What incentives were offered to NoEs, 44 Ampol to decentralize? MrBannon Mr Kearns MrBamier Mr L. B. Kelly Sir CHARLES CUTLER: I know that Mr Bedford Mr R. J. Kelly the honourable member will grasp at every Mr Booth MrMahoney straw to bolster his position in his own Mr Cahill Mr Mallam MrCoady Mr Mulock electorate. The fact is that Ampol and Total MrCox Mr Neilly have been offered every possible incentive MrCrabtree MrNott but they say that from an economic point MrDay Mr O'Connell of view-and this is a pretty good argument MrDegen Mr Paciullo MrDurick MrPetersen -they must be within reasonable distance MrEarl MrRamsay of .the existing oil refinery at Kurnell and Mr Einfeld MrRenshaw the wharf installations which service that MrFace MrRyan refinery. These are the facts. It is untrue to MrFerguson Mr Sloss Mr Flaherty Mr Southee say that this decision has been taken in the MrGordon Mr K. J. Stewart face of State Planning Authority opposi­ MrHaigh MrWade tion. I .throw the allegation back into the Mr Hills Mr F. J. Walker teeth of those who make it. The matter has Mr M. L. Hunter MrJackson Tellers, been considered by Cabinet. The Leader Mr Johnstone Mr Jensen of the Opposition has referred to the Syd­ MrJones MrQuinn ney region outline plan. I am Minister for Local Government and I am in charge of Resolved in the affirmative. planning at this moment-not in 1964 or 1968 but in 1973. If in the interests of this Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) State I decide to override the decisions of [5.10], in reply: I wish to begin my reply the State Planning Authority or the Sydney by quoting a statement made by the Premier region outline plan I shall do so. in October, 1972. Mr JACKSON: Mr Speaker-- Mr MAUGER: Mr Speaker, would you Mr MAUGER (Monaro), Government have the tellers count the Labor side again? Whip [5.6]: I move: The honourable member for Burrinjuck is That the question be now put. absent from the Labor side, and that does not give them 45 as was announced for the The House divided. division just completed. AYEs, 47 Mr SPEAKER: Is the honourable member Mr Arblaster MrLeitch Sir Robert Askin MrLewis for Burrinjuck in the House now? Appar­ Mr Barraclough MrMcCaw ently not. If the honourable member was Mr Jack Beale Mr McGinty MrBoyd MrMackie not in the House when the division was Mr Brewer MrMaddison taken, then the Clerk will correct the divi­ MrBrown Mr Mason MrBruxner Mr Mauger sions list. MrCameron MrMead MrChaffey Mr Morris Mr F. J. WALKER: Let me quote the MrCiough Mr Mutton statement made by the Premier as reported MrCowan MrOsborne MrCrawford Mr Punch in the Daily Telegraph. Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli MrDarby Mr Ruddock Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable MrDoyle Mr Singleton member for Georges River cannot be ex­ MrDuncan Mr Taylor MrFife MrViney pected to continue his reply if honourable MrFischer MrWaddy members on both sides of the House engage MrFisher Mr N.D. Walker Mr Freudenstein Mr Willis in audible conversation. I propose to call Mr Griffith Tellers, honourable members by name if they persist Mr Jackett MrColeman Mr Jago Mr Healey in this disorderly conduct in the ·House. ' 252 4018 Proposed Oil Refinery [ASSEMBLY] ~ L~c~ Height1 . Mr F. J. WALKER: In the Daily Tele­ sort of argument is continually used by this graph of lOth October, 1972, the Premier Government in its fear that New South is reported as saying: Wales will not be the most progressive State. The Government would not see industry That is a lot of rubbish. It is a matter of hamstrung when striking a balance between economic necessity for Ampol to have this preserving the environment and industrial de­ refinery in New South Wales. Anyone with velopment, Premier (Sir Robert Askin) said an understanding of the oil industry, and an yesterday. understanding of what Botany Bay means Sir Robert was officially opening the 1972 convention of the National Readymixed Con­ now and what it will mean in the future, crete Association. knows that the site for the proposed refinery must be in New South Wales. The argument Sir CHARLES COTLER: On a point of that the oil companies will go to Victoria or order. As the honourable member for Queensland, where there is already a re­ Georges River is quoting from a newspaper finery in existence, is just so much rubbish. article obviously he is introducing new matter. The Government has not stated the route of the proposed pipeline. Will it be across Mr SPEAKER: Order! In his reply the the Royal National Park or across honourable member for Georges River can­ Georges River park? That is another matter not introduce new matter. I take it that is that the Premier challenges when he says what the honourable member is doing and that nothing in this scheme will affect the I ask him to desist. environment. The Premier says that Mr F. J. WALKER: The Premier had Lucas Heights is the most suitable site. stated that he was most concerned about Lucas Heights is a sewered area. The Gov­ the environment and I was demonstrating ernment has gone to a great deal of expense the Premier's real attitude towards the en­ to sewer the Lucas Heights district and at vironment. The Premier raised the ques­ the moment the main carrier to Menai is tion of alternate sites for this refinery and being constructed across the Woronora said that an ad hoc committee, consisting River. At Parklea there is no sewerage and of various departmental heads, had been that area has been considered unsuitable established to consider the matter. The pub­ for the refinery, whereas Lucas Heights, lic of New South Wales has a right to be which is sewered and suitable for housing, suspicious when the Government departs has been determined to be the perfect spot. from normal procedures and establishes ad That might suit Ampol and it might suit hoc committees to deal with important mat­ the Government, but it does not suit the ters of this nature. The public is entitled to people of New South Wales. It is easy ask why the State Planning Authority was for the Government to say that the Hous­ not allowed to deal with this proposal in ing Commission of New South Wales is the normal . and proper way. The answer no longer interested in Menai and cannot is just as clear as was the answer in the find the money to buy one block of land. Clutha controversy: the Government is try­ However, the Government can find 300 ing to push through, and wants to keep as acres of land for Ampol when that com­ quiet as possible, something that it knows pany decides it needs a refinery. That is the people of New South Wales will not a shame and a disgrace. accept. The Premier said that eight sites I believe that this proposal will bring for the refinery had been considered. Many down the Askin Government. I am posi­ other places in New South Wales could tive that the people in my electorate will have been looked at. The honourable mem­ not tolerate the construction of an oil re­ ber for Casino suggested the port of Iluka finery nearby. Neither will the people in as being suitable and there are many other the electorate of Miranda. The honour­ places in New South Wales that would be able member for Miranda is unhappy be­ acceptable. cause he knows that there will be a tre­ The Government has suggested that if the mendous upsurge of public opinion in his Ampoi-Total group is not allowed to build electorate. In fact meetings are already at Lucas Heights, it will go to Victoria. That being held there. The electorate of Cronulla Proposed Oil Refinery [27 MAR., 1973]

will be affected by the proposal. Already MrRyan MrF.J. W;llke~ 11 , 1 there is a refinery in that electorate and MrSloss MrSouthee Tellers, now another will be built to the west and Mr K. J. Stewart Mr Booth the people in that electorate will be be­ MrWade Mr Flaherty tween the devil and the deep blue sea. Pollution in Cronulla is high and the pro­ NOES, 46 Mr Arblaster Mr Leitch posed refinery will add to it. The honour­ Sir Robert Askin MrLewis able member for Cronulla will not be happy Mr Barraclough MrMcCaw about the public opinion that will be Mr Jack Beale MrMcGinty generated in his electorate. The electorates MrBoyd MrMackie Mr Brewer MrMaddison of Georges River and Hurstville are in close MrBrown MrMason proximity to Lucas Heights. The first MrBruxner MrMauger southerly breeze will bring to the Georges MrCameron MrMead · River basin the same sort of polluted en­ Mr Chaffey Mr Morris MrClough MrMutton vironment that the Parramatta River valley MrCowan MrOsborne bas at the moment. God forbid that the Mr Crawford MrPunch people in my electorate will have to live Sir Charles Cutler MrRozwli in the smog, smoke ·and choking fumes MrDarby MrRuddock MrDoyle MrTaylor that the people in Parramatta River valley MrDuncan MrViney now suffer. No wonder people living near Mr Fife · MrWaddy the Parramatta River vote Labor. They Mr Fisher Mr N. D. Walker cannot expect from this Government any Mr Freudenstein Mr Willis Mr Griffith measures to control the people who pollute Mr Healey Tellers, our air. For many years in this State the Mr Jackett MrColeman Clean Air Act bas been in force, but this MrJago Mr Singleton Government has done nothing to police the Question so resolved in the negative. provisions of that Act and to prevent com­ panies like Shell Oil and Ampol Australia Motion negatived. Limited from polluting the air, destroying the environment and adversely affecting the way of life of the people of Sydney. For all BILLS RETURNED those reasons, members of the Opposition The following bill was returned from the are opposed to the construction of an oil re­ Legislative Council without amendment: finery at Lucas Heights. Main Roads (Amendment) Bill Question-That this House do now The following bill was returned from the adjourn. (S.O. 49)-put. Legislative Council with amendments: The House divided. Mining Bill

AYES, 44 Mr Bannon Mr Jackson MUNICIPALITY OF HURSTVILLE (WOLU MrBarnier Mr Jensen CREEK, KINGSGROVE, PUBLIC Mr Bedford Mr Johnstone RESERVE LAND SALE) BILL Mr Cahill Mr Jones MrCoady Mr Kearns FIRST READING MrCox Mr L. B. Kelly MrCrabtree Mr R. J. Kelly Bill received from the Legislative Council MrDay MrMahoney and read a first time. MrDegen MrMallam MrDurick MrMulock MrEarl MrNeilly MrEinfeld MrNott INDECENT AND RESTRICTED MrFace Mr O'Connell PUBLICATIONS BILL MrFerguson MrPaciullo MrGordon Mr Petersen IN COMMITTEE MrHaigh MrQuinn Mr Hills MrRamsay Consideration resumed (from 22nd Mr M. L. Hunter MrRenshaw March, vide page 3934). Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill Clause 4 MrMcGinty MrRuddock Page 4 MrMackie Mr Singleton MrMaddison MrTaylor (2) For tho purposes of this Act, but without pre­ MrMason MrViney judice to the generality of the word "indecent•, an article MrMauger MrWaddy is IDdeccn~ MrMead Mr N. D. Walker Mr Morris Mr Willis (a) it it cleacribes, depicts, ~ or othcrwiac deals Mr Mutton wltb;or MrOsborne Tellers, Mr Punch MrClough (b) wllenllt II a ncord, it it may be used to pnx1uce a Mr Rozzoli Mr Healey -.d ·or plctaR that describes, depicts, expresses or otherwise deals wirh. Amendment negatived. matters relating to sex, drug addiction, horror, crime, cruelty ~n1 or "fiokDce, or any other subject-matter, in a manner, or Clause as amended agreed to. 10 'an -.extent, that departs from contemporary community standards of'deceDcy, regard being had to the nature of the article, any merit it may bave in the field of literature, Clause 5 art, medicine or science and, where it is ·published, to tha Page 5 15 circumstances of its publication. PART U. Question-That at page 4, line 12, after ~. ~, INDECI!NT .A..TICUI. the word "decency" there be inserted the words "and that many tend to deprave, cor­ 5. (I) A pei'SOII contravenes this section if he publishes, or causes to be pubHshrd, or "ssists in publishing, an indecent rupt or injure the morals of that commu­ article. nity,"-put. Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.34]: I The Committee divided. move: That at page 5, line 7, the words "or assists AYES, 44 in publishing," be left out. MrBannon MrKearns MrBarnier Mr L. B. Kelly In my second-reading speech on behalf of MrBedford Mr R. J. Kelly the Opposition I read two letters-one from Mr Booth MrMahoney the Australian Journalists' Association and Mr Cahill MrMallam MrCoady MrMulock one from the Printing and Kindred Indus­ MrCox Mr Neilly tries Union-protesting about the possibility MrCrabtree MrNott of an employee being prosecuted because he MrDay MrO'Connell assists in the publication of an alleged in­ MrDegen Mr Paciullo MrEarl Mr Petersen decent article. Members of the House had Mr Einfeld MrQuinn the spectacle of the honourable member MrFace MrRamsay for Wakehurst rising and saying that it was MrFerguson Mr Renshaw MrFlaherty MrRyan a good idea. In my younger days I was MrGordon MrSloss taught that in a capitalist society the obliga­ MrHaigh MrSouthee tion is on the worker to obey the legitimate Mr Hills MrWade Mr M. L. Hunter Mr F. J. Walker orders of his employer. I do not accept MrJackson that proposition but here a Government Mr Jensen Tellers, party advocates it. Mr Johnstone MrDurick MrJones Mr K. J. Stewart The Government members are saying that NoEs, 46 if a person assists in the publication of an Mr Arblaster Mr Darby alleged indecent article he shall be liable Sir Robert Askin MrDoyle Mr Barraclough MrDuncan for prosecution. I find it hard to accept Mr Jack Beale MrFife that persons who call themselves liberals MrBoyd MrFischer MrBrewer MrFisher are prepared to do that. I protest against Mr Bruxner· Mr Freudenstein the Government's proposal to railroad this MrCameron Mr Griffith MrChaffey MrJackett legislation through the Parliament. This is MrColeman MrJa_!!o an important piece of legislation on which MrCowan Mr Leitch there has been five and a half hours of MrCrawford MrLewis Sir Charles Cutler MrMcCaw debate. Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 4021

Mr GRIFFITH: On a point of order. We Mr FERGUSON: As the Opposition pro­ are dealing with clause 5 at page 5, and poses to move a number of other amend­ a specific amendment which has nothing ments, we will not labour the point on this to do with the timetable of which notice one. We have to finish by six o'clock. We has been given to honourable members. We strongly propose the amendment. are in Committee dealing with a specific matter. Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secretary and Minister for Sport [5.38]: The The CHAIRMAN: The point taken by the Government will not accept this amend­ Minister is well taken. The amendment ment. I point out to members of the refers specifically to the words "or assists in Opposition that this is an offence under the publishing,". They are the words to which existing Act and has been for many years. the honourable member who has moved Obviously anybody who actively assists in the amendment should speak. The time­ the publication of indecent material should table of the House is a matter for the Gov­ be equally liable with the other people in­ ernment of the day and a matter for the volved. House to decide if an appropriate motion is moved. I ask that the honourable mem­ Question-That the words proposed to be ber confine himself to the amendment. left out stand-put. The Committee divided. Mr FERGUSON: I bow to the ruling given. What I want to say is that the AYES, 47 Opposition strenuously opposes a proposi­ Sir Robert Askin Mr Leitch tion whereby a worker in industry, a mem­ Mr Barraclough MrLewis ber of the servant or employee class, if he Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw MrBoyd MrMcGinty obeys his master, under this bill shall be Mr Brewer MrMackie liable to prosecution. Anyone who assists MrBruxner Mr Maddison in publishing Pix-People-the honourable MrCameron MrMason member for Hurstville as a former Mr,Chaffey, MrMauger MrClough MrMead employee of that company shudders­ Mr Coleman Mr Morris is liable for prosecution if the publishers MrCowan MrMutton are prosecuted because the publication MrCrawford MrOsbome shows pubic hair upon the female body. Sir Charles Cutler MrPunch Mr Darby Mr Rozzoli It is interesting to note the order of MrDoyle MrRuddock priority of the Government. The next Mr Duncan Mr Singleton legislation for consideration by the House MrFifc MrTaylor is the Zoological Parks Board Bill. That Mr Fischer MrViney MrFisher MrWaddy will be dealt with after dinner when Mr Freudensteirt Mr N.D. Walker members of the House will be speaking Mr Griffith MrWillis about Taronga Park. The Government has Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers, railroaded this legislation for completion by Mr Jackett Mr Arblaster Mr Jago MrHealey 6 p.m. On behalf of the Opposition I strenously object to such a procedure. The NOES, 45 Government stands indicted for its indecent Mr Bannon MrHaigh Mr Barnier Mr Hills haste-- MrBedford Mr M. L. Hunter Mr Cahill MrJackson The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable Mr Coady Mr Jensen member for Merrylands is completely out MrCox · Mr Johnstone MrCrabtree MrJones of order. The question is-- MrDay MrKearns 'I,: Mr Degen Mr L. B. Kelly Mr FERGUSON: I had not finished. ' Mr Durick Mr R. J. Kelly Mr Earl · MrMahoney The CHAIRMAN: The honourable member Mr Einfeld Mr Mallam MrFace Mr Mulock ., . for Merrylands had better speak to the Mr Ferguson ., Mr Neilly ,, ,. amendment. MrGordon . .MrNott 4022 Indecent ana Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill Mr O'Connell · · MrSioss to take vigilantes to premises and bash Mr Paciullo MrSouthee down doors is quite inappropriate to justice Mr Petersen Mr K. J. Stewart Mr Quinn MrWade and accordingly we oppose the inclusion MrRamsay Mr F. J. Walker of those words in the measure. Mr Renshaw Tellers, MrRyan Mr Booth Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ MrSheahan Mr Flaherty tary and Minister for Sport [5.47]: The amendment is not acceptable to the Gov­ Question so resolved in the affirmative. ernment. The important feature of this sec­ Amendment negatived. tion of the measure is that whether the warrant is issued by a magistrate or two Page 5 justices, it is returnable before a magistrate Penalty : In the case of a corporation-$1,000 for a Jir;, and a magistrate must decide the issue. This offence and. $2,000 for a second or subsequent offence. In any other case-$500 or imprisonment for six months for clause is included in the bill merely to deal a first offence and $1,000 or imprisonment for twelw months with a situation which I admit might not 20 for a second or subsequent offence. arise often. However, it might well be that Amendment (by Mr Ferguson) in a country town a magistrate is not readily negatived: available whereas two justices would be That at page 5, all words after "case-" on available. The important thing is that the line 18 down to and including "offence" on return of the warrant must be before · a line 20 be left out and there be inserted in lieu magistrate, and I believe that that covers thereof the words "$500 for a first offence and $1,000 for a second or subsequent offence". the main point made by the Opposition. Clause agreed to. Amendment negatived. ·Page 6 Clause 6 (2) ln the execution of a special warrant issued under Page 5 subsection (I). a member of the police force may take with '- (1) Wbere a camplalllt II Dildo on oath to a lltipen­ him such assistants as he thinks necessary and may. by llary maslllna or ._ jwticea to the effect that dlo breaking down doors or otherwise. use. or authorise his complainaDt has --to suspect, and believes- 1 S assist~nts to use, force in gaining the entry authorised by the special warrant. (a) that an article that may reasonably be suspected of 25 being an indecent article is kept in or on specified premises for the purpose of being published; or Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.48]: I move: Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.45]: That at page 6, lines 12 and 13, the words I move: "may take with him such assistants as he That at page 5, line 22, the words "or two thinks necessary and" be left out. justices" be left out. The honourable member for Dubbo inter­ Clause 6 provides for the issue of a special jecting, warrant by a stipendiary magistrate or two The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the honour­ justices to empower officers of the police able member for Dubbo to order. force to enter upon premises where they might suspect indecent articles may be Mr FERGUSON: Clause 6 provides that found. The warrant empowers a policeman a police officer in the execution of a special to break down doors and use force in gain­ warrant may take with him such assist­ ing entry authorized lly the special warrant. ants as he thinks necessary and he may, The Opposition, objects to the whole prin­ while breaking down doors and using force ciple involved in clause 6, especially gaining in gaining· entry, use such· assistants as he entry by breaking down doors. However, thinks necessary. The Opposition is not if this power is to be given it certainly pleased about police officers being armed should not be given by two justices of the with a special warrant issued by justices of peace. As was said at the second-reading the peace and it is certainly strongly against stage, each week every member of this a proposal that police officers shall be able Chamber nominates about six justices of to take to premises such aSsistants as is the peace. Empowering justices to issue a thought necessary. This will create a vigi­ special warrant to allow a police officer lante group. A policeman will take· a posse Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 4023

along to premises to assist him in creaking Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief down doors. This is an obnoxious proposal Secretary and Minister for Sport [5.51]: and the Government should never have in­ This amendment is not acceptable to the cluded it in the measure. Government. The reasons are the same as those I gave earlier. This is purely a formal Mr GRIFFITH ( Cronulla), Chief Secre­ provision and in the opinion of the Govern­ tary and Minister for Sport [5.49]: I think ment it is entirely unnecessary that this that the honourable member for Merrylands power be exercised only by a magistrate. has been watching too many westerns on television. He is dramatizing when he refers Amendment negatived. to vigilante groups and posses. This clause Clause agreed to. is a standard provision contained in many other Acts-for example, the Gaming and Clause 8 Betting Act and the Summary Offences Act. Page 7 The clear purpose of it is that police officers 8. ( 1 ) A member of the police foree may seize 1111 might need a competent tradesman to go 10 article that .Is in a public place if it may reasoubly .. auspected of being an indecent article. with them and assist them in gaining entry to suspected premises. Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) {5.52]: I move: Mr FERGUSON: To swing an axe. That at page 7, line 9, after the word Mr GRIFFITH: A locksmith or another "force" there be inserte4 the words ''above competent tradesman might be required to the rank of constable first class". use an oxy-acetylene torch to assist a police­ As the clause stands an officer of the police man in carrying out his duty. It is as simple force in a public place-the most junior as that and has nothing to do with posses constable who has been on the beat for five at all. The imagination of the honourable minutes-may, if he suspects that an article member for Merrylands has run wild. The is indecent, seize it. This is a terribly 4an­ amendment is not accepted. gerous power-the power to seize on sus­ picion. For that reason the Opposition be­ Amendment negatived. lieves that the officer should have some Clause agreed to. experience. We suggest that an· officer of the rank of constable first class has had Clause 7 enough time in the force to gain some ex­ Page 6 perience. We certainly do not believe tJtat 7. (1) Where an article has been seized pursuant to a this power should be in the hands of :ihe special warrant issued under section 6 ( 1 ) , it shall be returned to the premises in or on which it was seized unless, not later most junior member of the police force. 20 than one month after the seizure, an information is laid against a person for a contravention of section 5 with respect Mr PETERSEN (lllawarra) [5.53]: In to the article (or an article of which it is a copy) or a addition to the remarks of the honourable member of the police ·force reports the seizure to a justice who shall thereupon issue his summons calling on the person member for Merrylands, I must emphasize 25 who, at the time of the seizure of the article, was occup)ing that this whole clause is totally repugnant or using the premises entered by virtue of the warrant to to the concept of justice. Together with .appear before a court of petty sessions constituted by a · stipendiary magistrate to show cause why the article and the abolition of trial by jury, clause :g any other article seized pursuant .to the warrant should not is the key clause of the bill. Under .30 be forfeited to Her Majesry. this clause any constable may seize any Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.50]: material. If the owner of it wants it I move: back he has to apply and to prove that it is not indecent, thereby possibly incriminating That at page 6, line 23, the word "justice" be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof himself. This is especially obnoxious when it the words ''stipendiary magistrate". is combined with the definition of il)dec~Q.cy, which is something merely in the mind of Once again the Opposition objects to this the magistrate. This is a principle totally power being vested in a justice of the peace. repugnant to all concepts of civil liberty. We believe that it should be exercised by a It is one of the most disgraceful provision~ stipendiary magistrate. ever put befor~ thi!! :P~.:r:li~m~11t, 4024 Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill Amendment negatived. Clause 12 Page 10 Clause agreed to. ll. ( 1) The Governor may appoint a State Advisory Clause 9 Committee on Publications consisting of not less than three, and not more than seven, persons who shall have and may Page 8 exercise and perform the powers, authorities, duties and I 0 functions conferred or imposed on the Committee by or under 9. Where an article is seized pursuant to a special warrant this Act. issued under section 6 ( 1) or pursuant to section 8 ( 1), a court of petty sessions may order the return of the article to the person who appears to be lawfully entitled to possession Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.57]: S thereof if the court finds that the article, or an article of I move: which it is a copy, is not indecent- That at page 10, line 6, the word "may" be Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.54]: I left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof move: the word "shall". That at page 8, line 3, the word "may" be The clause deals with the State Advisory left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof the Committee on Publications which the Gov­ word "shall". ernment proposes shall consist of not less I am- pleased that the Government has than three and not more than seven persons. agreed with this amendment. Under the It provides that the Governor may, which Government's proposal, if an article were means that the Government may, appoint seized under a special warrant and the such an advisory committee. We do not Crown decided to take no action, no onus want to muck about. If we are to have an rested on the Crown to return the article. advisory committee the Government should Though the Government has not accepted say so. We are making it an obligation on many of the Opposition's circulated amend­ the Government to leave no options open. ments, it has accepted this one and decided We insist on the appointment of an advisory to put the onus on the Crown to return an committee to advise the Minister on what article that is seized in arbitrary fashion. is indecent and what should be prohibited. Amendment agreed to. Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ tary and Minister for Sport [5.59]: The Clause as amended agreed to. amendment is not acceptable to the Gov­ Clause 10 ernment. If it were agreed to, this would Page 9 be a direction to the Governor and it is not current legislative practice to give direc­ Peaalty: In the case of a corporation-$1,000 for a first Clftence and $2,000 for a second or subsequent offence. In tions to the Governor. ny other ~500 or imprisonment for·six months for a 20 first offence or $1,000 or imprisonment for twelve months for Amendment negatived. a second or subsequent offence. Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.59]: Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [5.55]: I move: I move: That at page 10, lines 7 and 8, the words That at page 9, all words after "case-" on "not less than three, and not more than seven, line 19 down to and including "offence" on persons" be left out and there be inserted in line 21 be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof the words "seven persons". lieu thereof the words "$500 for a first offence or $1000 for a second or subsequent offence". The Government proposes to set up this committee to advise the Minister on censor­ I have already given the reasons for this at ship, sex and all other matters. We think the second-reading stage. this committee is important enough to Mr SHEAHAN (Burrinjuck) [5.56]: warrant the removal of any options to the Will a policeman who sees an article, such Minister to have only three members or an artificial rooster in the garden which perhaps seven. The Opposition believes that cries "cock-a-doodle-doo", and seizes it as the committee should consist of seven indecent, have to return it to the owner? members. The more persons considering these questions of censorship the better it Amendment negatived. is for the community. The Opposition be­ Clause agreed to. lieves that such an advisory committee Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 4025 should include at least a social worker, a Page 10 person of some literary merit and a U. (I ) The Governor may appoint a Stale Advisory psychiatrist. We are saying that the Govern­ • Committee on Publications consisting of not less than three, and not more than seven, persons who shall have and may ment should make its ideas specific and exercise and perfonn the powers, authorities, duties and though the Government says that the com­ 10 functions conferred or imposed on the Committee by or under mittee may consist of seven members, the thiJ Act. Opposition says that it should consist of (2} Of tile members of the Commit~ seven members. (a) one shall be a woman; (b) one shall be a recognised expert in Hterature, art, Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ 1S medicine or science; and tary and Minister for Sport [6.0]: This amendment brings into consideration (c) one shall be a barrister or solicitor. the whole aspect of the State Advisory Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [7.30]: I Committee provided for by the Act. I move: want to point out to the honourable That at page 10, line 13, the words "one member for Merrylands and to the com­ shall be a woman" be left out and there be mittee that the State Advisory Com­ inserted in lieu thereof the words "not less mitee on Publications has been in existence than three shall be women". for some time and has done an extremely Clause 12 refers to the composition of the good job. I want to take this opportunity State Advisory Committee on Publications, to thank the members of that committee for and stipulates that one member of it shall the work that they have done over the years. be a woman, one shall be a recognized ex­ The Government does not propose, by pert in literature, art, medicine or science, accepting this or other amendments that and one shall be a barrister or solicitor. The have been foreshadowed, to change the Opposition believes that most pornography framework built up by that advisory is aimed at denigrating women. committee. Mr DoYLE: Oh, no. The honourable member for Heathcote made some snide remarks about jobs for the Mr FERGUSON: I state as a fact that boys, on which the honourable member is a most pornography that is published is an bit of an expert. I want to demonstrate to attempt to denigrate women. Because of the Committee the type of person serving on that we wish to test the Government on the State Advisory Committee. The chair­ this question of protecting women, their man of the committee, who has just retired, decency and so forth, by suggesting that has been Mr B. S. Doyle, the Assistant three of the seven members of this com­ Crown Solicitor and a very eminent man. mittee shall be women. We have been A woman member is Mrs P. E. Churchill, accused of being a male-dominated society. executive director of the Young Women's This amendment will give the Government Christian Association, and a woman of im­ an opportunity to allow women to sit in peccable record. Mr E. Edwards is a direc­ judgment when contemporary standards in tor of a publishing firm and is widely ex­ perienced in that field. Mr W. H. Cowled the community are being considered. From is a newsagent and a man of experience in my observation, women find pornography the publications distribution field. The in general boring and distasteful. Most other member is the well known journalist, women have sound common sense. If they Mr Ross Campbell, a Rhodes scholar, a man are able to appraise whether or not a pub­ with an excellent record and the sort of lication is pornographic, they should be able person about whom no one could quibble. to sit as part of a committee to judge such The Government believes that those people are doing a good job on the committee and matters. We submit that when any com­ intends to allow the committee to continue mittee of seven is being set up to advise its excellent work. the Minister on pornography or other mat­ Amendment negatived. ters, it is reasonable to have three women as members. Government members should [The Chairman left the chair at 6.3 p.m. The Committee resumed at 7.30 p.m.] pull themselves into the twentieth century, 4026 Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill for the bill indicates that they are still MrRamsay MrWade back in the nineteenth century. I urge the Mr Renshaw Mr F. J. Walker Mr Ryan •Government to accept this amendment. MrSheahan Tellers Mr Southee Mr Booth [Interruption] Mr K. J. Stewart Mr Jones The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon­ Question so resolved in the affirmative . .ourable member for Vaucluse to order. Amendment negatived. Mr GRIFFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secretary and Minister for Sport [7.35]: Clause agreed. For the reasons I gave prior to the dinner Clause l3 adjournment, this amendment is not accept­ Page 12 able. The Government does not intend to (b) is. by reason of the nature or extent of references .reconstruct the committee that is provided therein to matters of sex, drug addiction, horror, Jor in the measure. crime, cruelty or violence, or for any other reason. 30 undesirable reading for persons under the age of eighteen years and should be classified as a Question-That the words proposed to restricted publication or class of publication; or be left out stand-put. Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ The Committee divided. tary and Minister for Sport [7.41]: I move: That at page 12, line 29, the words "or for AYES, 45 any other reason," be left out. .Sir Robert Askin MrLeitch Mr Barraclough MrLewis As this aspect was discussed fully in the Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw earlier part of the Committee's considera­ Mr Boyd Mr McGinty tions, there is no need to expand on the Mr Brewer Mr Mackie reasons for the amendment. Mr Bruxner Mr Maddison MrCameron MrMason MrClough Mr Mauger Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [7.42]: I MrColeman MrMead would hardly expect the Government not to MrCowan Mr Morris support an amendment it proposed, but Mr Crawford Mr Mutton Opposition members are grateful that the Sir Charles Cutler Mr Osborne MrDarby Mr Punch Government is willing to make this small MrDoyle Mr Rozzoli concession in the interests of liberty and Mr Duncan Mr Ruddock respect for the right of the individual. We Mr Fife Mr Singleton support the amendment and congratulate Mr Fischer MrTaylor Mr Fisher MrWaddy the Government on showing a little under­ Mr Freudenstein Mr N.D. Walker standing in what has otherwise been a party­ Mr Griffith Mr Willis political approach to the question of censor­ Mr D. B. Hunter Tellers ship. Mr Jackett Mr Arblaster MrJago MrViney Amendment agreed to. NOES, 44 Clause as amended agreed to. Mr Bannon Mr Hills Mr Barnier Mr M. L. Hunter Clause 14 Mr Bedford Mr Jackson Page 13 Mr Cahill Mr Jensen MrCoady Mr Johnstone (2) Where the Minister so specifies in ar. oruor under MrCox Mr Kearns IS subsection (1), any subsequent edition, series. number or issue of the publication or class of publication .to which the Mr Crabtree MrL. B. Kelly order relates is a restricted publication or class of restricted MrDay Mr R. J. Kelly publication notwithstanding any reconstruction (whether ~ Mr Degen Mr Mahoney way of alteration in title, c~ange of subject, characters? st?I1 Mr Durick Mr Mallam 20 or other features or otherwtse howsoever) of the publicattOQ MrEarl MrMulock or class of publication. · Mr Einfeld Mr Neilly MrFace Mr Nott Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [7.44]: I MrFerguson Mr O'Connell move: Mr Flaherty Mr Paciullo MrGordon Mr Petersen That at page 13, line 18, the words "not­ Mr Haigh Mr Quinn withstanding any reconstruction" be left out. Indecent and Restricted [27 .MAR., ·1973] Publications Bill 4027

Clause 14 empowers the Minister to classify Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [7.47]: a publication as a restricted publication. By I move: the present wording of the clause if a jour­ That at page 13, line 28, the word "lends," nal, a book, paper or any other document is be left out. made a restricted publication and the editor re-constructs it, so that it no longer offends, The Opposition does not wish to spend the Minister does not release it from the much time on this amendment as it is restriction. Ribald might become as pure as frightened of the guillotine blade that is the driven snow, as non-offensive as the hanging poised over its neck. In a previous Girls Own Annual, Charlie Chuckles amendment we have indicated that we Weekly or even the St George and Suther­ object to the word "lends". land Shire Leader. I wonder how the Minis­ Amendment negatived. ter sees fit to describe that nefarious journal. Even if the editor reconstructed the St Clause agreed to. George and Sutherland Shire Leader, the Minister would not dare make it a non­ Clause 20 restricted publication. Page 17 25 2{). (I) Proceedings for a contravention of a provision I appeal to members of the Government of this Act (sections I 5 and 16 excepted) in respect of a to reconsider this aspect of the bill. Though book, magazine or periodical may be instituted only with the prior approval of the Minister. a document is declared to be restricted at a particular time following a recommendation Mr PETERSEN (Illawarra) [7.48]: I of the advisory committee, surely if the move: editor learns the error of his ways and re­ That at page 17, line 26, the words "(sec­ constructs the document to remove any in­ tions 15 and 16 excepted)" be left out. dication of pornography or anything offen­ sive the Minister should be empowered to It is incredible that the Minister proposes do, something about it. I am surprised that to put these words into the bill. The a former editor of the St George and Suth­ approval of the Minister must be obtained erland Shire Leader as well as former music in all other provisions dealing with prose­ critic of the Daily Telegraph should support cutions for indecent and restricted publica­ such a proposition. Opposition members tions, but where a minor is concerned urge the Government to agree to this minor approval need not be given by the Minister. concession. I particularly object to section 16 being ex­ cepted. In that situation a person under 18 Mr GRIFFITH ( Cronulla), Chief Secre­ years can be accused of contravening the tary and Minister for Sport [7 .46]: The legislation and, if convicted, has a black amendment is not acceptable to the Gov­ mark against his name-a criminal convic­ ernment. · If it were allowed, a loophole tion-for the rest of his life. That could be would be available and we should revert done by a public servant; it need not be to the position that we are seeking to over­ done by the Minister. It is evident that the come. By agreeing to change a few lines Minister is completely evading his respon­ -a so-called minor change-this provision sibility in regard to sections 15 and 16. could be rendered pointless. For that reason In his second-reading speech the Min­ the amendment is not accepted. ister gave no indication why prosecutions under sections 15 and 16 should be ex­ Amendment negatived. empted from his control. The Opposition considers this completely intolerable. The Clause agreed to. legislation is bad enough without violating Clause 15 civil liberties any further. If the Minister Page 13 intends to introduce pioneering legislation in the sense that it destroys civil liberties, 25 15. (1) A person contravenes this section if, in a street « l!Ublic place (not being a shop)- he should bear full responsibility for it. (a) he dlstn'butes, ~tel. clroulaiN. esblbltl. dilplaJB, loads. oelll, eBen for sale, lets on hire, or The honourable member for Campbelltown olen to let on hire. a restricted publication; or interjecting, 4028 Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon­ of this legislation is when offensive material ourable member for Campbelltown to order. -of which there is far too much in the community, hence the necessity for this mea­ Mr PETERSEN: The Minister must sure-is produced and it is considered that accept complete responsibility. The re­ it ought to be dealt with, the police can sponsibility will be on his shoulders and he find out who published it, who produced should not duckshove it. it and who peddled it. That is the whole Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief basis of this portion of the bill, so that the Secretary and Minister for Sport [8.1]: police can be told that it is desired that a Clearly what the honourable member for prosecution be launched in relation to a Illawarra proposes is quite unnecessary. The particular publication 'Jr article and they Minister, whoever he might be, would have can find out who produced it, where it was already dealt with the situation to the stage published and lay a charge. It is as simple where a particular article or publication as that. This provision is an essential part had become restricted. The amendment is of the bill. not accepted. Amendment negatived.

Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Page 18 Clause 21 Page 18 (2) The Miaistor may give an approval undca 21. Proceedings for a contravention of a provision of tbll• SllbsectioD ( 1) In rapoct of a speelfted book, magazine Of Act shall be heard and determined by a stipendiary magistrate perioclical without specifying the contravention or any party 20 sitting In petty sessions. to die poccedlngs.

5 (3) A document that- Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) [8.5]: Clause 21 is the most controversial Mr PETERSEN (IIIawarra) [8.2]: I and offensive clause in this measure and I move: cannot help using strong words when speak­ That at page 18, lines 3 and' 4, the words ing to it. I move: "without specifying the contravention or any That at page 18, lines 19 and 20, the party to the proceedings" be left out. words "heard and determined by a stipen­ This is another incredible provision, com­ diary magistrate sitting in petty sessions'' be left out and there be inserted in lieu pletely in line with the Minister's outlook thereof the words "tried in the District Court towards this bill. People are to be prose­ by a jury consisting of twelve men chosen and cuted in relation to allegedly indecent pub­ returned according to the provisions of the lications which offend community standards. Jury Act, 1912." Evidence as to what community standards The effect of this amendment will be to take are will not be permitted and they will these matters out of the hands of stipendiary depend solely upon the opinion of the magistrates, who under this bill as it now magistrate. This measure will allow a person stands will have the exclusive right of de­ to be prosecuted for publishing an indecent ciding what is indecent, and place this publication without specifying in which way power in the hands of a jury of twelve to the publication happens to be indecent. It decide what community standards are. In is fairly obvious that this clause is a grab­ other words, the judge of community stan­ all, dragnet clause designed to catch up dards would not be a stipendiary magistrate anything that the Minister might wish. but rather a jury of twelve, as was the posi­ Consequently it is completely contrary to tion before this measure was brought before normal criminal proceedings and amounts us. The reason given by the Government to suppression of freedom of speech. for abolishing trial by jury in indecent and Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief restricted publication matters is that the Secretary and Minister for Sport [8.3]: system has been tested since 1967, when this The amendment is unacceptable. What the Government introduced trial by jury in honourable member for Illawarra has put these cases, but it did not work in practice. forward is ludicrous. The whole purpose The Minister held up his hands in horror Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 4029 and said the Government thought originally Government and the Minister can be tested. that it was a wonderful measure but un­ The Government wants to take from juries fortunately, because of the way it has the right to decide these matters and to give operated, it has become impractical to dis­ that power to stipendiary magistrates. Is a pose of these cases by trial by jury. stipendiary magistrate better equipped than a jury of twelve to decide what are contem­ I challenge the Minister to produce one porary public and community standards? I case where a jury has failed to convict a shall deal with that question at greater person charged with an offence relating to length later. As a member of the legal pro­ an obscene or indecent publication. He has fession who has, on hundreds of occasions, not yet done so. I know of only one such appeared before stipendiary magistrates, and case. I went to the trouble of consulting as a member of the legal profession who has leading legal authorities in New South taken the trouble to speak to leading mem­ Wales, including barristers who practise fre­ bers of the bar who have practised before quently in the criminal law. They too know stipendiary magistrates for up to forty years, of only one case. I have had discussions I have yet to find a lawyer who is not also with other legal authorities in this appalled by this provision. State. All of them acknowledge that in recent years there have been only three in­ With the exception of a handful, stipen­ dictable cases covering matters of obscenity. diary magistrates are generally acknow­ Those three cases involved six charges. In ledged in the legal profession to be rather two of those cases the jury could not narrow men, with limited views when it arrive -at a decision as to whether the ac­ comes to this sort of matter. One need only cused was guilty or not, but the accused look at the number of successful appeals in -were convicted on other counts. this sort of case and other cases to realize that stipendiary magistrates should hardly be I ask the Minister whether it is a fact the last court of appeal for these offences. that there is only one case-may be I am They are narrow men with a limited educa­ wrong, and there are three cases-where a tion although there are some notable jury bas failed to reach a decision on an exceptions. obscenity indictment. If that is the posi­ tion this Government and the Minister stand Mr BARRACLOUGH: On a point of order. indicted for misleading the public and this I take strong exception to the remarks of Parliament. How can the Minister say that the honourable member for Georges River the system has failed when he can point to against stipendiary magistrates. The hon­ only one case? Each year thousands of ourable member for Georges River has indictable offences come before our courts. made an unprovoked attack on this body of In hundreds of them juries do not reach men. He bas classed them as uneducated. decisions. This is quite a common occur­ He is reflecting on the judiciary. These men rence. The Minister has told us that 400 of these cases are banked up and be implied play a great part in the administration of that the jury system is unable to handle this the law. It is standard procedure of this kind of matter. That is rubbish. Thousands House that no attacks are made on public of cases of all sorts are on the lists for servants. It ill becomes a man who bas juries to bear. Simply because the State little or no practice in the legal profession Crown Solicitor believes that a jury might to make such an attack. The honourable not convict in these cases, these matters are not listed. It may well be that the Minister member for Georges River claims to speak has been seizing material that he knows the as an expert but my understanding is that general public and juries would not accept he has bad no practice whatever in the as obscene. law. He has quoted the opinion of the legal I ask the Minister to inform the House profession but his remarks are a reflection in how many cases in recent times juries on the magistracy and I ask you, Mr Chair­ have failed to convict on obscenity indict­ man, to order him to withdraw that attack ments. In this way the credibility of the upon magistrates. 4030 lndecew. {l.nd Restricted [ASSEMBLY] . ., Publicatiorn.BiU ' The CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not think to stand up and smile when he introduced that point can be upheld. The honourable the bill. At page 89, the Attorney-General member for Georges River expressed in said: general terms what he thought of the magis­ The second matter of significance was the trates of this State. He is perfectly entitled satement by the distinguished ~ritish jurist_L9rd to do that. Denning, Master of the Rolls, who said that whilst juries are an· essential in criminal Mr F. J. WALKER: I saw a recent letter trials ... in the Sydney Morning Herald from a re­ Then he goes on to emphasize that juries tired magistrate who wanted to have nothing are essential in criminal trials. The only to do with this legislation. I know from my legal justification that the Chief Secretary personal experience that some magistrates was willing to give for the abolition of juries are appalled at the thought of having to deal was to quote in part-and I emphasize that with these sorts of matters. I want to quote it was only part-a statement of Mr Justice the. words of an impeccable authority. Woodward who was not a judge at the time Everyone will agree that this authority but a leading member of the Bar in a paper knows what he is talking about when he speaks of juries and the importance of the reproduced in Vol. 45 of the Australian law in association with juries. This authority Law Journal of September, 1971. Mr Justice is none other than· the Attorney General Woodward had some comments to make who wrote an article in Quadrant in Nov­ at page 557. Part of those comments were ember-December 1967, dealing with the quoted by the Minister but he failed to question of abolition of juries in criminal finish the quotation. He would· have been trials. He was writing about the 1967 legis­ embarrassed had he done so. I shall embar­ lation that abolished juries for motor acci­ rass him by finishing the quotation for him. dent'' He said: ca~es. Mr Justice Woodward said: No attempt was made nor was it intended to interfere with the use of juries in criminal . . . the real vice of trial by jury in such trials. cases is that it places the decision in the hands of people who may have no right to an That is at page 82. He went on to say at opinion. page 83: That is His Honour's opinion of juries. He It should not have been necessary to point goes on to say: out so frequently that it was, and still is, the policy of the Government to ensure that Tt could well be the case that some or all juries are readily available in any instance-- of the people chosen at random never read a novel or see a play from one year's end ! emphasize these words-- to another. How can such people adequately weigh evidence, perhaps conflicting, of literary where a man's honour, integrity, character or or artistic merit? reputation is in jeopardy. They will not have to do this under the Can anyone tell me that a prosecution under legislation. There is no such thing as admiss­ this legislation does not involve a man's honour, integrity, character or reputation? ible evidence. Mr Justice Woodward con­ tinued: Are they not put in jeopardy? This legisla­ tion repudiates the words of the Attorney How can they fairly be expected to reflect the standards of the community? Surely the General and of the Government. At page test must be the standards of those in the 85, the Attorney General wrote: community who read books and go to plays. An assurance has been given by the Govern­ It is all very well to say that quotation ment that it is not prepared to extend the abolition of juries beyond a civil trial of road supports the Government's argument in part accident cases. but it goes on-and here is the crunch: This is another Government promise repudi­ Once judges, magistrates and jurors are ated and dishonoured-another disgraceful ruled out as censors, it becomes apparent that censorship is not a job for the legal system situation. The Chief Secretary had the gall at all. Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 403J

The ~an the Minister has quoted as his nullifying the application of the provlSlon sole authority for abolishing juries and put­ by insisting that a magistrate shall be the ting in their place stipendiary magistrates sole arbiter of what are contemporary com~ does not believe this matter to be one for munity standards. A magistrate is not a our courts of law. He is the Government's knockabout man and is not competent to authority. The Minister is embarrassed by determine what are contemporary com­ his failure to give the full quotation. Let munity standards. His very position isolates us find some better authority. I turn to a magistrate from the community. Before that eminent British authority Glanville he can determine contemporary community Williams, leading authority on the criminal standards, or assess the standards set by the law in England and New South Wales. He community, a man has to be an active mem­ writes in his book, Proof of Guilt: ber of the community. In a magistrate's daily life, he frequently has to determine England is the foster mother of the jury which although copied or inherited by other questions of law on precedent. In assess­ countries is still regarded as a distinctly British ing contemporary community standards, contribution to political institutions. there can be no precedent. Such standards He goes on to quote Blackstone: may be determined at a certain date but in twelve months, with the same evidence being Trial by jury ever has been, and I trust ever will be, ·looked ·upon as the glory of the English presented, a different result might follow. law. The one thing we can be sure about in There are many arguments in favour of the this life is change. Change is inexorable. jury system and the most telling argument Although change happens slowly, like a is that in deciding upon contemporary government department moves, it does standards no one can imagine a better tri­ occur. The standard set today is not neces~ bunal than twelve men and women drawn sarily the standard tomorrow. A magistrate from a cross section of the community. by his very ,training is inhibited from mak­ Surely from those twelve persons it would ing a proper decision on contemporary com­ be possible to get a reasonable decision munity standards. The only ones who can on contemporary standards. The issue under make a decision on contemporary standards this bill is not what is really a contemporary are the people themselves. The way to get standard but what a magistrate thinks. That a decision by the people is to have a jury would depend on his education or lack of of twelve tried and true men who know it-and there are magistrates who have not what contemporary community standardr a great deal of education and some who are. The people make standards and in­ know nothing about literature or nothing to terpret those standards. A person living on speak of about works of art. There are ex­ the fringe of the community is not com­ ceptions; some magistrates know a great petent to make a decision on community deal about those matters. Surely magistrates standards. I ask the Government to accept are not to be put in a position of deciding the amendment because it will enable this what are contemporary standards. Surely laudable clause to be made effective. twelve persons from a cross section of the Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ community are in a better position to decide. tary and Minister for Sport [8.14]: This I say to the Minister that this provision is clause is the crux of the whole bill. If the a load of rubbish. It is designed to make Government accepts the amendment, it the law far more repressive and restrictive. might just as well throw out the whole mea­ It will make the law on censorship the most sure. This matter was dealt with at length extreme and obnoxious law in this State. at the second-reading stage and quite clearly the Government must flatly reject the Mr O'CONNELL (Gosford) [8.10]: The amendment. most laudable provision in this bill is that a · publication will be determined indecent or Question-That the words proposed to be otherwise by contemporary community stan­ left out stand-put. dards. However, the Government is hypo­ critical because it immediately sets about The Committee divided. 4032 Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill

AYES, 46 Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [8.20]: I Mr Arblaster MrJago move: Sir Robert Askin Mr Leitch Mr Barraclough Mr Lewis That at page 18, line 27, the word "not" Mr Jack Beale MrMcCaw be left out. Mr Boyd MrMcGinty Mr Brewer MrMackie I am amazed that, after the elaqtience of Mr Bruxner MrMaddison my colleagues on the subject, the Govern­ MrCameron MrMason ment did not agree to trial by jury in these Mr Chaffey Mr Mauger cases. But now in clause 22 the Govern­ MrClough Mr Mead ment proposes to set up a system whereby MrColeman Mr Morris MrCowan Mr Osborne stipendiary magistrates will be the sole MrCrawford Mr Punch arbiters of what are contemporary com­ Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli munity standards of decency. It is in­ MrDarby Mr Singleton credible that an underlying principle of the MrDoyle MrTaylor MrDuncan MrViney bill is that censorship shall be based on MrFife MrWaddy contemporary community standards of MrFischer Mr N. D. Walker decency, yet the magistrate who will decide Mr Fisher Mr Willis these cases will be prevented from being Mr Freudenstein Mr Griffith Tellers, assisted by evidence concerning these stan­ Mr D. B. Hunter MrMutton dards. As one of my colleagues said, this Mr Jackett Mr Ruddock is like sending a person to a race meeting at Randwick without a form guide. NoES, 42 Mr Bannon Mr Kearns A magistrate in the normal course of his Mr Barnier Mr L. B. Kelly duties becomes experienced in dealing with MrBedford Mr R. J. Kelly drunks, wife beaters and petty larceny cases, Mr Booth MrMahoney MrCahill MrMallam but now the Government is asking him to MrCoady Mr Neilly sit in judgment on vital principles in our MrCox Mr Nott society; that is, on matters of censorship. Mr Crabtree Mr O'Connell At the same time, the Government is saying MrDay Mr Paciullo MrDegen Mr Petersen that the magistrate shall not have the bene­ Mr Earl MrQuinn fit of having placed before him evidence Mr Einfeld MrRamsay relating to contemporary community stan­ MrFace MrRenshaw dards of decency. Surely the matters I have Mr Ferguson MrRyan Mr Flaherty MrSheahan referred to disclose the Government's inten­ Mr Gordon Mr Sou thee tion. This is not a question of justice at all, MrHaigh MrWade for the Government, by refusing to allow Mr Hills Mr F. J. Walker the admissibility of evidence on contem­ Mr M. L. Hunter porary community standards of decency, has Mr Jackson Tellers, Mr Jensen MrDurick shown that it believes the calling of such Mr Jones Mr K. J. Stewart evidence would delay a conviction, and this would cost the Crown money by hav­ Question so resolved in the affirmative. ing the cases dragged out. One can only form the opinion that the Government is Amendment negatived. interested alone in getting convictions. Clause agreed to. The whole tenor of the bill is directed not towards obscenity but to establishing Clause 22 what meets certain standards of decency. Page 18 Supporters of the Government have sat col­ a. Ia Ill'/ proceedlllp uacJer .... ,._ lectively in their party meetings and have (a) the opinion of an expert as to wbldlor or not an agreed that a stipendiary magistrate, who article has any merit in the field of litclature, art, the Opposition believes is not a suitable medicine or science end, If so, tbe Daturc and went person to establish contemporary com­ 25 thcrd II admissible evidence; ODd (b) evidence directed towards establish!ng contempo_rary munity standards of decency, should make community standards of decency ts not admtsstble. these decisions, but they will not even Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., '197'3] Publications Bili

allow him to be assisted in reaching a lication itself necessary or admissible. Evi­ decision. Indeed, the prosecution, which dence of what has been published in other books or writings is not admissible. The court is acting on behalf of the Government, will has to determine whether the one publication not be allowed to produce evidence to before it is obscene having regard to the establish that a document, newspaper or p~rsons, class of persons, and age groups to book offends contemporary community whom or amongst whom the matter was published. standards of decency. But more important, the person who might be put in gaol for That is sound reasoning, and that is the six months or twelve months, "fined $500 reason why the Government insists that this or $1,000, will not be allowed 'to produce portion of the legislation remain as it is. such evidence, and even the lawyer who carries the responsibility of his defence will Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [8.27]: not be a'hle to present evidence of this kind Mr Chairman, I am plea'sed to notice-- to the magistrate. The CHAIRMAN: 'Order'! There is far too trltich audibie conversation. The honour­ The OppO'sition is appalled at the a'tti­ able member for Merrylitnds has the call. tude 'of a political party that is always talk­ ing about British justice, the old country, Mr FERGUSON: The Minister has given standing by the Bible and all those other shocking -replies to the previous matters that wonderful things, like the Union Jack and have been raised in Committee, but at ieast the A1:1straiian fla:g. In this instance it is on this occasion, as _J:!_e has replied with establishing a system whereby a man may material prepared by his speech writer, we receive six months' or twelve months' gaol can understand his point. He asks us what without the opportunity to submit the IS going to happen if witness after witness evidence I have mentioned. The whoie idea is called. Anyone Wlio has ha:d any ex"Peti­ is to prosecUte bini for offending coil.tem ence wWn law knows that co\:ih cases cos't poracy community standards of decency, bUt inoriey-at least $500 a day. The honour­ nobody is 'allowed to say what tllose shi'ti­ tiards are. The Oppesition is appalled by able member for Northcott started to smirk this proced1.1re, and we 'aSk honourable mem­ when I said that; but 'in proceedings like bers to support the amendment. this, in whi:ch evidence is called, it could ·cost $5ou a aay. In reply io tile Minister's M'r GRIFFitH: {Cronuila), 'Chief Secre­ contention Hrat the citse could go on ad tary iiild Ministef for Sport {'!f25j: In reply t0 what the honourabie Iirel:tiber for Merry­ ilifinltum, he must bear in mind thai: the hinds has said, and he believes this is art defenee couid not afford to keep on calling important matter, if someone were charged evidence day after day, week after week. before a magistrate or a tribunal, he could It is apparent that the Minister is conc·erhed go on calling everyone to give evidence ad not with justiCe but with conviCtions. For infinitum, witness after witness, expressing these reasons I ask honourable fu.einbers td their view on what they believe are basic community standards. Would anyone be support the amendment. prosecuted if the community standard were [lnierrupiion] based, for example, on the standards ac­ cepted by the honourable member for Illa­ The CHAIRMAN: brder! i call the lion~ warra1 An extract from the judgment of ourable fuember for Buri:injuck l:o order. Mr Justice Windeyer in Crowe v. Grahani sets it out in a nutshell. His Honour said: [lnterhiptiim] Does the publication by reason of the extent to whiCh ahd the manner in which it deals The CHAIRMAN: Order! I call the hon­ With sexulil matters ti:arisgres~ . the gei:ierally oUrable inefuber for Merrylarids to order for accepted bounds of decency? That is a ques­ l:he :litsi Hri1e. tion of f:kt; to be decided by the tribunal of fact It has to be answered by reading the publication. Common sense and a sense of Airiendinent negatived. decency must supply tfie aris\ver. Only within very narrow limits is evidence beyond the pub- Clause agreed to. 253 4034 Indecent and Restricted [ASSEMBLY] Publications Bill Clause 24 amendment and to substitute two years for Page 20 three months we would not object to the ( 4) Proceedings referred to in subsection (I) may deletion of subclause (5) of clause 24. The not be commenced after the expiration of the period of three whole clause is a vicious piece of legislation. months next after the cause of action arises but, where appli· 20 cation for an extension of the period in which the proceedings By clause 8 a police officer may seize any may be instituted is made to a court in which the proceedings, material that is deemed to be obscene. One if lawful, may be instituted and maintained, that court may, for sufficient cause shown or if it considers it reasonable in has to prove that it is not obscene to have the circumstances so to do, grant an extension of that period it returned, and thereby run The risk of 25 on such terms and conditions, if any, as it thinks fit. prosecution. In clause 24 we have the situa­ Mr PETERSEN (Illawarra) [8.29]: I tion that if damage is done in consequence move: of this Act to a citizen, that citizen must take action within three months or apply That at page 20, lines 18 and 19, the words for an extension of time not longer than "three months" be left out and there be inserted in lieu thereof the words "two years". six months after the cause of action arose. I do not see why the clause is in the bill It is amazing how when a minor aspect of unless it is intended to promote inequality legislation is examined it throws consider­ able light on the Government's intentions. as part of the whole process of taking action This applies to clause 24 of the bill, which outside the normal course of legality. deals with the procedure for taking action Subclause ( 6) of clause 24 is another in the event of any damage being done by the governmental authority taking action vicious provision. It gives a person a choice against a person under this legislation. of accepting a certain amount of money or of proceeding to legal action but if Clause 24, which sets out procedures for on the hearing of the action he does recovering damages, has grave defects. It requires a person suing the government for not receive that amount or more he is re­ damage caused to give notice of intention quired to pay the costs of the action. If a to sue. That promotes inequality between person were offered $50 in settlement of a bureaucrats and other J?eople. I am par­ damages claim and did not accept it but ticularly concerned by the inequality pre­ was later awarded $49 by a court, he would scribed particularly in subclause ( 4), which be required to pay the court costs. The provides that proceedings fvr damages may whole purpose of clause 24 is to ensure not be commenced after the expiration oi a that a person who is innocently offended by period of three months after a cause of action arises. Clause 25 provides that one action taken under this clause does not have can apply for an extension of time not more the right to the publicity of his grievance in than six months after the cause of action the courts. This is a most obnoxious provi­ arises. That is an amazingly small period. sion. The normal period of limitation in statutes is six years. Amendment negatived. The Law Reform Commission has ex­ Clause agreed to. pressed itself strongly on statutory limita­ tion, including disparaging remarks about New clause 14. shorter limitations of time. It has recom­ mended the introduction of legislation to Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [8.35]: I equalize periods of limitation. If a person move: wants to take action against a government That the following clause be inserted: department why cannot he do so, six years 14. (1) Each year the Committee shall later, as is possible against everyone else prepare and submit to the Minister a report in the community? The Opposition does of its work and activities for the preceding not claim that six years is necessary; we twelve months. believe that probably one can decide within (2) The Minister shall lay that report or cause it to be laid before both Houses two years what one wants to do. If the of Parliament as soon as practicable after Government were prepared ~o accept our the receipt by him of the report. Indecent and Restricted [27 MAR., 1973] Publications Bill 4035 In a number of Acts provision is made nature is set up it is not usual for it to be for the establishment of committees of an required to render reports to Parliament. advisory nature or otherwise. Members of The Government rejects the proposal. the Opposition feel that the Parliament Mr PETERSEN (Illawarra) [8.39]: We should be informed what these committees are dealing with a bill which defines in­ are doing at least every twelve months. By decency as something that offends com­ this legislation the Parliament is setting up munity standards. In order to advise on an advisory committee to advise the Minis­ community standards an advisory committee ter in relation to indecent publications. is . bei~g set up with power to bring in a Opposition members are of the opinion that mmonty report. The Minister is not re­ when the Parliament sets up committees the quired to take any notice of the committee's Parliament, with its members representing recommendations. However, the constitu­ the people of New South Wales, should tion of the committee has been so secret know what those committees are doing. The that until today, when the Minister gave advisory committee for which this bill pro- details of membership, most honourable - vides will supply the Minister with reports members did not have a clue who were on on _why a book should be a restricted publi­ that old committee. It is fairly obvious that catiOn. The members of that committee members of Parliament have to be sure that could submit a minority report to the Minis­ the Minister is administering this legislation ter. The majority of members of the com­ in a way that does not lack-- mittee might recommend that a book be classified but the minority may not favour Mr VINEY: The ballot box will decide that course. Irrespective of what advice the that. Minister receives he is not required to act on the committee's advice. The advisory Mr PETERSEN: The ballot box will de­ committee, acting on the powers with which cide that and if the swing at the recent by­ it is vested, may recommend certain forms elections is any indication of community of censorship. The Minister should give an thinking, it will decide it in our favour next account of the stewardship of the advisory year. It fact, it will show that the people committee to the Parliament. We ask all of New South Wales do not want a narrow­ honourable members to support this fair and minded government. We are entitled to reasonable proposition. know whether freedom of speech is to be destroyed by this legislation. If committees Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Sec­ make reports to the Minister, members of retary and Minister for Sport .[8.38]: The Parliament and the public of New South Government does not accept the proposed Wales have as much right as the Minister new clause. The honourable member for to know what is going on. After all, the Merrylands has endeavoured to create the people of New South Wales pay the Min­ impression that something new has been ister and those who pay the piper have the introduced by this measure. This is not so. right to know what tune is being played. Mr FERGUSON: It is a new bill. Question-That the clause be inserted­ put. Mr GRIFFITH: An advisory committee was established by the old Act. The honour­ The Committee divided. able member for Merrylands has tried to AYES, 44 make out that Parliament is setting up a MrBannon MrEinfeld committee which should report to the Mr Barnier MrFace Mr Bedford MrFerguson Parliament. By the former measure provi­ Mr Booth MrFlaherty sion was made for an advisory committee Mr Cahill MrGordon MrCoady MrHaigh which had no executive functions. That MrCox Mr Hills committee, like the new one, provided the Mr Crabtree Mr M. L. Hunter MrDay MrJackson Minister with advice on which he may or MrDegen Mr Jensen may not act. Where a committee of that Mr Earl Mr Johnstone lndeceut P.uhlicatious Bill {ASSEMBLY] Zoolog.ical Parks Bill

Mr Jones Mr Quinn Park has operated as a zoological garden Mr Kearns Mr Ramsay since 1916 when the transfer of the animals Mr L. B. Kelly Mr Renshaw Mr R. J. Kelly MrRyan from the old Moore Park zoo was com­ MrMahoney Mr Sheahan pleted. Its original area was about 43 acres MrMaHam Mr Southee but, with extensions over the years, it now MrMulock MrWade comprises an area of about 29.27 hectares Mr Neilly Mr F. J. Walker MrNott or about 72 acres. As mentioned at the in­ Mr O'Connell Tellers troductory stage, there are eight trustees in­ Mr Paciullo MrDurick cluding the under-secretary of the Depart­ Mr Petersen Mr K. J. Stewart ment of Lands who is an ex-officio member NOES, 46 of the trust. Mr Arblaster MrLewis Sir Robert Askia MrMcCaw Prior to the passing of .the Taronga Zoo­ Mr Barraclough Mr McGinty logical Park Act of 1956 the trustees were Mr Jack Beale MrMackie appointed under section 26 of the Crown MrBoyd Mr Maddison Lands Consolidation Act of 1913. The 1956 MrBrewer MrMason Mr Bruxner MrMauger Act brought the trustees within the pro­ MrCameron MrMead visions of the Public Parks Act of 1912. MrChaff{ly MrMorris This enabled the trustees to acquire about Mr Mutton Mr Clough 40 Mr'Coleman Mr Osborne acres of land at Mona Vale for the Mr Crawford Mr Punch purpose of growing fodder. The land was Sir Charles Cutler Mr Rozzoli acquired at an extremely reasonable price MrDarby Mr Ruddock from the late Sir Edward Hallstrom who, MrDoyle Mr Singleton MrDuncan Mr Taylor as honourable members are aware, had a MrFife MrViney long association with the zoo, ·both as a MrFischer MrWaddy benefact0r and as president of the trust. l Mr Freudenstein Mr N.D. Walker might add that for many years Sir Edward MrGriffith MrWillis Mr D. B. Hunter played a leading part in the development of Mr Jackett Tellers Taronga Park. Before we came to Govern­ MrJago MrCowan ment Sir Edward backed the zoo with funds MrLeitch MrFisher and employees, and indeed guaranteed the Question so resolved in the 111egative. overdraft of Taronga Park Zoological Gardens. This Mona Vale land is now a New clause negatived. most valuable piece of real estate and is intensively .cultivated for the production ot ADOPTION OF REPORT specialized animal fodder. Bill reported from Committee with amendments, and report adopted on motion As I also mentioned a,t the introductory by Mr Griffith. stage, the Government has had under con­ sideration for some time a proposal to estab­ ZOOLOGICAL PARKS BOARD BILL lish an open-range zoological park. This park, the first full sca:le open-range zoo in SECOND READING Australia, will be established near Dubbo. Mr LEWIS (Wollondilly), Minister for The site is three miles south of that city Lands and Minister for Tourism [8.49]: I and is on the Newell Highway which links move: Dubbo and Parkes and carries heavy inter­ That this bill be now read a second time. state traffic. It is the site of a World War II The main object of this measure is to con­ army training centre and has an area of stitute the Zoological Parks Board of New about 280 hectares. The land is gently South Wales. The principal functions of the board will be to maintain and control sloping and contains a good timber cover Taronga Zoological Park and to establish, as well as some excellent open areas. It is maintain and control other zoological parks only a short distance from the Macquarie in New South Wales. Taronga Zoological RiYer and has direct access to the river fot Zoological Parks [27 MAR., 1973] Board Bill 403,7

water supply purposes. Permanent water the viewpoint of biology of zoological is assured, as the river flow is regulated gardens. Following this report, which was. from Burrendong Dam. also tabled. on lOth November, 1966, a planning committee consisting of members Many sites were inspected before this one of the trust and representatives of the Gov­ was chosen. One of its big advantages is ernment Architect's branch of the Depart" its proximity to a major centre, offering ment of Public Works was constituted to first-class accommodation facilities and undertake systematic replanning and re­ good transport, including air services. There development of the zoo. The committee are some excellent examples of this type prepared a master plan outlining some of of zoo overseas, such as the New York the objectives and principles to guide the. and San Diego wild animal parks in the redevelopment of the zoo. Included among United States of America. Because of its the major projects under the plan which expertise in zoo management, and its supply have been completed are, the rainforest of animals, the Taronga Zoological Park aviary, the waterfowl area, the platypus Trust was considered to be the most appro­ house, the nocturnal house and landscap­ priate authority to establish and control the ing and paving of the Australian section. new undertaking. In coming to its decision, These projects were designed and super­ the Government was aware that any such vised by staff of the Government Architect. authority would need to be empowered to institute large-scale borrowings and its Since 1965, financial assistance to the ex­ membership would need to be· larger than tent of $991,.620 has been given to the that allowable for a trust. trust. During the current financial year $190,000 has been provided, including It was decided to constitute a board to $10,000 towards the cost of repair of be known as the Zoological Parks Board Taronga Park wharf. This compares with of New South Wales. The board will take approximately $7,000 per annum given by over the maintenance and control of the previous Government. The Govern­ Taronga Zoological- Park and, as I have ment expects to be able to continue its said, it will undertake the establishment assistance until the zoo has been developed of the Dubbo open-range zoo. Before to the stage when it will compare with any turning to the provisions of the bill, I in the world. In addition, the board is should like to mention briefly what has being empowered to mortgage its assets or been achieved at Taronga Zoological Park borrow moneys on debentures, bonds, in­ since this Government came into office. scribed stock or other prescribed securities At that time, considerable criticism was be­ for the carrying out of developmental works. ing levelled at the zoo. Soon after assum­ Admittedly much more work requires to be ing the office of Minister for Lands, I done and a lot more money will be needed. arranged with the chairman of the Public The· House can be assured, however, that Service Board to have a general investiga­ out of the limited resources available, and tion into the administrative and business without jeopardizing other worthy projects, operations of Taronga Zoological Park. As such as the improvement of recreation re­ a result of the investigation, a report titled serves generally, the Government will sup­ "Report on Administrative and Business port the works programme at the zoo to its Aspects of Taronga Zoological Park, Syd­ utmost capacity. ney" was tabled on lOth November, 1966. Most of the recommendations contained Part II of the bill constitutes the Zoologi­ in the report have been put into effect by cal Parks Board of New South Wales. The the trust or due consideration has been board will be a body corporate and deemed given to them when alternative proposals to be a statutory body representing the have been adopted. Crown. It will be subject to ministerial A second investigation commissioned by control and. consist of eleven part-time mem­ the Government was carried out by Dr bers,. ten of whom are referred to in the H. Hediger,. director of Zurich ZoologicaJ bill as appointed members and the under­ Gardens, SwitzeFland. His report was from secretary of the Department of Lands, or his 4038 Zoological Parks [ASSEMBLY] Board Bill nominee, who is referred to as the official the meaning of the Crown Lands Consolida­ member. The maximum term of appoint­ tion Act of 1913, or the Taronga Zoological ment of an appointed member is five years Park lands, to the board for an estate in but he may be re-appointed from time to fee simple. Lands acquired by the board time for any term not exceeding five years. shall, in respect of such acquisition, be No person of or over the age of 70 years exempt from stamp duty under the Stamp may be appointed or continue in officer as an Duties Act of 1920. appointed member. There will be a chair­ The board may lend or donate animals, man and a deputy chairman, elected plant or machinery and borrow animals to annually by the members, and provision be kept or displayed by it and also acquire is made for the filling of casual vacanciel! property by way of gift, devise or bequest. in the office of the chairman, deputy chair­ For securing repayment of the principal and man and any member. A member shall interest on any money borrowed under the not be subject to the provisions of the next part of the bill, the board may mort­ Public Service Act of 1902, in his capacity gage any land that it holds in fee simple or, as a member. subject to the provisions of the Trustees of Part III deals with the establishment, Public Reserves Enabling Act of 1924, any maintenance and control of zoological parks land vested in or held by the board as a by the board. The bill defines a zoological public reserve within the meaning of that park as a zoological garden, or aquarium, or Act. Other provisions relate to the powers similar institution, in which animals are kept of the board to enter into contracts and or displayed for educational, cultural, agreements such as for the supply of goods scientific or recreational purposes. To com­ and the sale of photographic and radio or plete that definition, an animal is defined television rights. as including any bird, fish, reptile or other living zoological specimen. This part em­ Part IV deals with the financial provisions powers the board to establish, maintain and relating to the board's activities. These are control zoological parks on ·lands vested in standard provisions contained in most Acts or held by the board. It provides that the of Parliament of this nature. They provide board may maintain and control Taronga for proper books of account to be kept and Zoological Park and other zoological parks a statement of accounts to be presented to on or in lands or premises vested in or held Parliament annually. The Auditor-General by the board although such parks may not is required to audit the accounts. The have been established by the board. Provi­ method of investment of the board's funds sion is also made for the establishment of is prescribed. The Governor may approve branches of zoological parks. of the board obtaining temporary financial accommodation by way of bank overdraft. The board may investigate and carry out The Treasurer may advance moneys to the research into the design and equipment of board upon such terms as may be agreed zoological parks and the care and well being upon. The purposes for which the board of animals kept in those parks. It may co­ may borrow moneys are prescribed. Where operate with scientific and other institutions repayments of loan moneys are made by and provide facilities for research to be instalments at intervals of more than one carried out in premises under its control, or year the board is required to establish a re­ elsewhere. Also, it may provide education serve for loan repayment fund. Provision services for the public with respect to zoo­ is made for the board to issue debentures, logical parks and the biology of wild bonds, inscribed stock or other prescribed animals. These services may be in the securities to secure the repayment of prin­ nature of lectures, broadcasts, films, publica­ cipal and interest on any moneys borrowed. tions or by other methods. This part also Part V enables the Governor to make empowers the board, with the consent of regulations and, among other things, re­ the Minister, to acquire and dispose of quires the board to make an annual report lands. A further provision enables the of its activities for presentation to Parlia­ Governor to grant any Crown lands, within ment. Under part VI, the dedication of Mr Lewis] Zoological Parks [27 MAR., 1973] Board Bill 4039

Taronga Zoological Park as a public park that the present Taronga Park trust would is revoked, the trustees cease to hold office, be transferred in its entirety. The bill does and the body corporate comprised of those not say that. It says that the Minister may trustees is dissolved. The trustees, if other­ appoint ten members to the board and one wise qualified, shall be entitled to be member shall be the under secretary of the appointed to the board. Taronga Zoological Department of Lands or his nominee. If it Park is deemed to have been dedicated as is the wish of the Government to have ap­ a public park under the Crown Lands Con­ pointed to the board highly qualified people solidation Act of 1913, and the board is who will be constantly, not predominantly, deemed to have been appointed as trustees part and parcel of the management and will of the park under the Public Trusts Act of have jurisdic~ion over all zoological parks 1897. All the rights, liabilities and property now existing and to be established, we do and the staff of the trustees are transferred not quarrel with that provision. Irrespective to the board. of where it is throughout the State, the board should develop open-range parks, Schedule 1 repeals the Taronga Zoologi­ such as is being developed south of Dubbo, cal Park Act and the Acts amending that in fact within a few miles of where my Act. Schedule 2 amends the Local Govern­ parents lived when I was born, between ment Act so that land used and occupied Wongarbon and Dubbo. That site is a most by the board is exempt from rates. Also desirable one, but I envisage that the city of it amends the Closer Settlement and Public Dubbo eventually will be built around the Reserves Fund Act of 1970, so that the park and the open-range park will no board may receive moneys from the fund longer be open, but will be inside the city established under that Act. boundaries. This measure recognizes a zoological In some respects, the bill falls short of park as an institution where the emphasis is what it should achieve. The Minister by on its educational, cultural and scientific virtue of his office will be able to appoint functions, in relation to the study of wild ten members to the board. The bill should animal life, rather than merely as another contain a provision specifying that these place for public recreation. The board, with people should have certain knowledge and its highly qualified membership and its ex­ e~pertise that they can apply to the prob­ pert managerial staff, may be relied upon lems of confining animals and Of zoological to carry on to completion the develop­ parks generally. Not necessarily the Min­ mental work initiated by the trust at Tar­ ister, but his successors, irrespective of the onga Park. It may also be relied upon to party to which they belong, could make establish and maintain the project at Dubbo appointments for prestige purposes for the and any other zoological parks planned for boys. I know that charge can be levelled the future. I commend the bill to the against any organization, but generally House. speaking governments in the past, as I be­ lieve they will in the future, have had a Mr RENSHAW (Castlereagh) {9.2]: As wish to select people who can make a I indicated at the introductory stage, the special contribution .to the deliberations of Opposition does not oppose the bill now be­ bodies such as this proposed board. The fore the House. However, I do want to specification of qualifications would be an make some comments. For instance, the improvement in this provision. In the bill's Minister said: present form, it provides for ten members to be appointed, not necessarily because of The board, with its highly qualified member­ ship and its expert managerial staff, may be their qualifications, but in some cases per­ relied upon to carry on to completion the haps because of qualifications that should developmental work initiated by the trust at Taronga Park. disqualify them. Of course, this House does not know who I join with the Minister in acknowledging will be appointed ·to the proposed board. I the valuable work carried out in the de­ do not know whether the Minister means velopment of Taronga Park by the late Sir 4040 Zoological Parks [ASSEMBLY] Board Bill !Edward Hallstrom. Incidentally, Sir Edward The bill proposes to translate the trust Hallstrom came from the town of Coon­ into a board, with the membership being amble, aithough he left there at an early increased from eight to eleven. The board age. For many years, as president of the will have greater poweFs than the trust; this Taronga Park trust, Sir Edward carried out has· probably arisen from problems in the his task with foresight and energy and he past in relation to capital works investment. donated large sums of money to the de­ Perhaps the only point on which we might velopment of the park. Through his join issue is that specific provisions have generosity, land at Mona Vale was acquired not been made for the nomination of mem­ by the trust and that land will continue to bers of the board. The under secretary for be used for park purposes.. it could be that Lands only is mentioned, and, in his ab­ in the future the land at Mona Vale could sence, he will be empowered to nominate have a realization value. The biil provides another person from the Department of that, with the consent of the Minister, the Lands. The Opposition would prefer to see proposed board may exercise powers with special provisions whereby people may be respect to the sale, leasing and disposing of appointed by His Excellency the Governor lands. That is a desirable provision and I when they have special qualifications and have no objection to it. knowledge, from which the board could benefit: We believe that these things should Under the bi1i the board wilt be em" be spelled out. I realise that the Minister powered, with the concurrence of the Trea­ will in his reply say that we are presuppos­ surer, to borrow money for the purposes ing that he does not have this in mind. of the proposed Act. I presume that the Although this might be his intention, we powers will be exercised under the semi­ contend that the only way to establish such government borrowing provisions. If that is a principle, so that it will be followed by the intention, it could save the government his successors, is to provide for it in the taking the money out of the loan fund allo­ legislation. However the order of leave does cation for the State. That would allow the not allciw the measure to make these pro­ board, with the consent of the Treasurer, visions. If it had done so the Opposition and without any interference by the loan would haVe been moving suitable amend­ council, to borrow up to $400,000 a year ments tci introduce them. That is the only for the purpose of carrying out develop­ criticism we have, and the Opposition in· mental work, without any call being made tends to support the bill. on the State capital works programmes, ex­ cept for the guarantee from the Treasurer Mr MASON (Dubbo) [9.12]: It is with in relation to semi-government borrowing. pleasure that I support this legislation, for If that is the case, it shifts the emphasis I am sure that when an assessment is made from the demands on loan funds, and in in future of the contributions that have been the present circumstances is a suitable de­ made towards the establishment of national vice to secure funds for other public pur­ parks and the preservation of wildlife, the poses, and would be similar to the way Minister for Lands will rate tremendously high. No Minister for Lands or other per­ funds have been secured for developmental son has had his vision when it comes to work in the M. A. Noble stand at the Pad­ preserving national parks and encouraging dington end of the Sydney Cricket people to preserve for the future areas Ground. In recent years many organiza­ where Australia's unique fauna can tions, trusts and others, such as hospital be seen and enjoyed. I am sute that the boards, have been brought under the semi­ State of New South Wales will realise in government borrowing provisions. It is hard future the tremendous debt it owes to the td estimate what would be the extent overall enthusiasm and vision of the Minister, who of this type of borrowing which is found in has worked to provide these areas for pos­ the powers and duties of trusts and boards terity. The vision of the Minister is clearly and is the subject of government demonstrated by the wide opportunity that guarantees. will be given to the new board, which was Mr Renshaw] Zoological Parks [27 MAR., 19731 Board Bill 4041 formerly the Taronga Zoological Park ment on many occasions to a standstill Trust, to develop other zoological parks in because of what they say are important the State. The first park is to be situated principles-they show a deplorable lack of in Oubbo; and I assure the Minister of the interest in the many genuine opportunities support and interests of the citizens of not that ate available for conservationists and only Dubbo but also the whole of western other concerned people to conserve wildlife· New South Wales. and the development of opportunities for people in future to observe wildlife. This The Minister mentioned the· great con­ was brought home to me when I visited tribution to Taronga Park that Was made the San Diego zoo, which is one of the by Sir Edward Hallstrom:. I mention also great zoos of the world. There I saw many the more recent chairmen, Mr Stack and exhibits with a specially designed sign, Mr Maclurcart, who have presided over which drew attention to the fact that the trl1sts that have made fine contributions to species of animals on display was in danger Taronga Park. While I wish the board members every success in what they seek of extinction. There were a frightening to do, I am sure that anyone who has visited number of these enclosures. This is a sad Taronga Park recently has been impressed fact of our times, and it points to a serious by the tremendous improvements effected neglect at a time when people are supposed by the seven-mart trust and the under secre­ to be greatly concerned about conservation. tary of the Department of Lands. I need This applies in Australia, where opportuni­ mention only the nocturnal house, the ties are available to preserve our own fauna. most recent addition that was opened by As honourable members are aware, many His Excellency the Governor, which must people ignore the opportunity to share in rate as one of the best in the world. Having this area of life. had the privilege of seeing the nocturnal I was tremendously impressed when I house at the New York zoo, I believe that learned from some of the great zoos over­ it does not compare with the recent ad­ seas of the real interest of conservationists, dition at Taronga Park. The platypus house and how they expressed this interest in prac­ has provided visitors with an opportunity tical, monetary contributions. For instance, to see the most unique Australian animal at the New York zoo the family that vir­ in a setting that was not possible before. tually owns the Reader's Digest recently It, too, must have world rating in the pre­ contributed about $5 million towards the sentation of animals. construction of a world of birds exhibition. I should like to mention also the walk­ Honourable members can imagine what a through bird aviary and the koala area, as zoo with that sort of money available can well as other additions and improvements do to present to the people of the world that have been made at the Taronga Park the life of birds. zoo. All these things go towards making Opportunity is afforded for those in New Taronga Park one of the most important South Wales and in Australia who protest zoos in the world. Undoubtedly a great so loudly about conservation to do some­ deal of the credit for this must go to the thing in a practical way to demonstrate their people who have been mentioned and to interest. Sir Edward Hallstrom set the all members of the trusts that have so far pace along these lines in relation to Taronga administered Taronga Park zoo. I take this Park. He showed the community of Syd­ opportunity to place on record my own ney and of Australia what an inspired per­ appreciation of the work they have done. sonality could do when he was prepared to It seems to me that one of the sad facts use his time, money and effort in this area. of life is that in these modern times, when What a tragedy it is that so few have seen so many people want to demonstrate and fit to follow his example. I hope that out cause all sorts of fuss under the general of the supposed interest and concern in heading of conservation-causing contro­ conservation about which we hear so much, versy and argument, and bringing develop- and the preserving of our natural areas and 4042 Zoological Parks [ASSEMBLY] Board Bill flora and fauna, we might see a resurgence man tour. I have been amazed at the num· of real financial support for places such as her of oversea visitors who have taken that Taronga Park zoo. opportunity. I do not know the exact figure for last year, but I understand that about One of the most important aspects of the 20,000 visitors took this one-day tour be­ measure is that opportunity will be given to cause they wanted to see the real Australia the board to develop zoos other than -a shearing shed, sheep being mustered Taronga Park. As the Minister has in­ and some of the Aborigines of our land. dicated in his second-reading speech he, I am convinced that one of the roles of the with Mr Stack, the chairman at the time of new type of zoo will be to give those the trust, visited Dubbo and announced the visitors to our country the opportunity to development of a second zoo, to take the see Australian animals in our Australian form of an open range zoo at Dubbo which atmosphere. These visitors do not come to would be developed in conjunction with Australia to see cities, which are similar in Taronga Park. In that way the Taronga whatever part of the world one visits: they Zoological Park Trust and the Minister have come to see the country. The people of shown that they are right up with the most Dubbo are anxious to see the development forWard thinking a:bout zoological parks of this project begun. I had hoped that the throughout the world. Developments of Minister might give an indication of the exactly that nature are at present being planning for this open-range zoo and inform undertaken by most leading zoos. The San us when a start might be expected on it. Diego zoo has already opened its open­ range park. New York is in the process of One of the things the Minister said when developing its open-range project, as is announcing the development of the open­ Toronto. The great zoos of the world either range zoo in Dubbo was that adjacent have in an advanced stage of development property owners might be interested in dis­ a zoo such as is proposed for Dubbo, or posing of their properties so that the area are working towards the creation of one. In proposed could be enlarged, and that if this way Taronga Park is doing what other this were so, they might make an appro­ leading zoos of the world are doing--creat­ priate approach to the Department of ing an opportunity for the people to see the Lands. I understand that at least two proper­ animals of the world in as close as possible ties have been offered to the Department to their natural state. of Lands for this proposal. From what I have been able to observe overseas in these I imagine that the development of the parks, the present area available of 692 park at Dubbo will be a long-range matter acres or 280 hectares seems a little small. and as a zoo is a living, growing thing it is I am hoping that it will be possible for the not something that can be accomplished in Minister to accept these properties, as that a moment. We have witnessed the develop­ will ensure that the ultimate development of ment of Taronga Park over many years. the area at Dubbo will not be restricted. It will go on developing, growing and im­ It would be a pity if it were found later proving its facilities, for many years to that sufficient land for this purpose bad not come. I am sure that the same will be ,true been set aside. of Dubbo. Its development will take place over a protracted period. One of the matters I support this measure with considerable I was interested to hear the Minister's com­ pleasure, and congratulate the Minister on ments on was his announcement that the introducing it into the Parliament. I am Dubbo zoo would be developed with a dis· sure that it will be recorded in history that tinctly Australian flavour. One of the roles this was a tremendous advance in the de­ I can see it playing is that of a major velopment of zoological activity in Aus­ attraction to overseas visitors. tralia and that we will see flowing from this development advances in growth at Dubbo At the present time many thousands of visitors from overseas take the opportunity and other areas in the future, so that people that is presented by Airlines of New South of the present day and in the future will Wales to go on what is called a Jolly Swag. be able to enjoy to the full the wonders MrMason] Zoological Parks [27 MAR., 1973] Board Bill 4043 of Australian fauna, the wonders of wild­ admission charges are increased the family life and the pleasure there is for children, group has to meet a greater burden and and indeed for all the people of our com­ that is the very group we should encourage munity, in remembering the contribution to make full use of zoological parks. As the Nature has made to our civilization and to honourable member for Castlereagh said, the development of our community. I com­ the Opposition sees no provision in this bill mend the legislation to the House. which should be opposed. Mr JACKSON (Heathcote) [9.29]: My The Taronga Park zoo is worthy of the contribution to this debate will be brief. best possible management and therefore it I support the honourable member for should be maintained in first-class order so Castlereagh, who led for the Opposition, that the development we have seen in recent and the Minister in commending the bill years may be continued. Each year on to the House. As one who has had an several occasions I visit Taronga Park zoo. association with a trust that administers Over the past twelve months I have observed one of the most beautiful national parks marked developments and evidence of in this country and as chairman of the ad­ future progress which will further enhance visory committee of that park, I have had this beautiful zoo of which we are all so a long association with this type of matter. proud. I wish the new board every success I pay tribute to the trust that has been with Taronga Park and the zoo that is to responsible for managing the Taronga be established near Dubbo. I compliment Zoological Park. Because of the location the former trust which for many years of the zoo, I believe it is one of the most laboured under financial difficulties but beautiful zoos in the world. I have had maintained a high standard. I compliment the opportunity to see zoos in other parts also the late Sir Edward Hallstrom who of the world and as a result I appreciate played a major role not only in acquiring more keenly the beauty of our own zoo at land but also in publicizing the zoo at his Taronga Park. own expense. Sir Edward dedicated a quar­ It makes one proud to realize that this ter of a century to the management and de­ legislation will mean further development. velopment of Taronga Park. There will be more specific control by the Mr FISCHER (Sturt) ,[9.34]: I rise to new board. The members of the board will not be appointed as permanent trustees, as support this measure. It is pleasing to hear was the position in the past. Their appoint­ the honourable member for Heathcote take ments will be similar to those of advisory part in the debate in such elegant, clear and committees and other trusts which operate precise terms especially in view of recent to control parks and public recreation areas reports by the mass media. I should like which at present do not come under the to invite the attention of the House to one authority of the National Parks and Wild- life Service. · aspect of this bill in particular. The Grong Grong branch of the United Farmers and The normal limitations and qualifications Woolgrowers' Association recently ex­ applying to advisory committees and trusts pressed by resolution their concern that will apply to this board and each appoint­ ment will be limited to five years. This though this measure contains a blueprint for legislation empowers the board to do many the future zoological development of areas things, including borrow money. I hope in New South Wales it does not adequately this will not mean an increase in charges provide for inherent dangers involved in made to the public. I realize that funds this development. The danger to which this have to be found to maintain and develop organization referred is that the increasing large undertakings such as Taronga Park number of lions throughout New South zoo and the new open range zoo pro­ posed for the Dubbo area. There should be Wales in controlled zoos could lead to a no deterrent to the public using zoos both situation similar to the plague of rabbits in for recreation and education purposes. If this State some years ago. 4044 Zoological Parks [ASSEMBLY) Board Bill I am not using my own imagination in attained-we have not reached the ultimate bringing forward this matter. I am speak­ in zoos at Taronga Park. In fact I know ing as the member of Parliament represent­ of no zoo in the world that wants to stand ing the township of Grong Grong and the still. It has been truly said that if one re­ Grong Grong branch of the United Farmers mains still one retrogresses; if one improves and Woolgrowers' Association. The people one progresses. It might be said that money of Grong Grong have considered this mat­ outlaid on establishing a new zoo could be ter carefully. I have raised briefly with the profitably spent on an existing zoo, which Minister the fact that the bill does not con­ happens to be Taronga Park. However, with tain specific powers relating to security stan­ every project someone has to make a deci­ dards for zoological parks. sion. Mr RENSHAW: That is the responsibility The honourable member for Castlereagh of the Minister. who led for the Opposition, did this when he was Premier and when he held various Mr FISCHER: Yes, but only in general portfolios in former governments. He terms. Clause 30 sets out responsibility and reached the point on many occasions where specific powers in some detail but not a decision whether to go ahead with a new sufficiently to include the security of the project or to continue to spend money on zoological areas to be created. The Grong an old one had to be made. In this case Grong branch of the United Farmers and the Government has decided it should do Woolgrowers' Association, after considering both. That decision might bring some criti­ this aspect closely, decided that some danger cism upon. the Government and indeed exists following the introduction of lions at upon the new board. I do not think it Warragamba and in future in the Dubbo could be suggested that all the money avail­ area. They believe a hazard could be created able for this area of our culture should be especially as the huge expanse of moun­ spent improving Taronga Park. What the tainous country to the east of Dubbo might Government is attempting to do under this provide an environment in which lions legislation is a new concept in Australia. thrive. Admittedly climatic conditions It will develop an open space zoo at Dubbo there are different from those in the lions' and subsequently other open space zoos or natural habitat and the vegetation is not the confined space zoos will be developed and same, but it is not beyond the realms of run by the Zoological Parks Board of New possibility that lions could survive in moun­ South Wales. tainous areas of this State long enough to cause hazard to human beings and to hunt The other criticism might logically come as predators of natural fauna. I invite in respect of the support from the honour­ the attention of honourable members to this able member for Dubbo as to the location comment from a group of experienced pri­ of the new park. Doubtless had the Gov­ mary producers who enjoy considerable ernment made a decision to establish an respect in this State. On their behalf I raise open-range zoo within 30, 50 or 100 miles the matter in the House and ask the Minis­ of Sydney the number of persons visiting ter to consider including in the measure it may or may not have been-but prob­ stringent provisions for full security of any ably may have been-greater than those zoological area created. who would visit a zoo at Dubbo. Most Aus­ tralians are anxious to foster decentraliza­ Mr LEWIS (Wollondilly), Minister for tion and the opportunity to do so presented Lands and Minister for Tourism [9.38], itself here. in reply; I thank all honourable mem­ bers who have spoken for their con­ Mr RENSHAW: How many animals will tribution to this debate. I suspect that be accommodated there? within this Parliament and publicly there might be some criticism about the bill and Mr LEWIS: I shall come to that. In my speech envisaging the creation of a new recent weeks the newspapers have carried zoo at Dubbo. It may be said that as yet­ some criticism about the amount of money I do not expect this situation ever to be that the Government has spent at Taronga Zool&4048 'Electrid't'y Com'niiSsion ·[ASSEM'in.:Y] '(Superannudtion) Bill provided that servants transferred to the New ·appointees to the commission's commission from the Sydney County Coun­ wages staff have contributed to the appro­ 'cil, the Department of Railways, the pub­ priate local gbvernm·ent superannuatio-n lic service and the Balmain Electric Light scheme, while new appointees to the salaried Company were to be paid a salary or wage staff have contributed to the State super­ at a rate not less than the rate payable to annuation fund. New appointees to the them immediately before transfer, and that wages staff who subsequently transferred to they would enjoy the same rights and privi­ the salaried staff have been obliged to con­ leges in respect of annual, sick and recrea­ tinue 'to contribute to the respective local tion leave as if they had remained with government superannuation scheme. The their previous employer. On the other hand, New South Wales branch of the Association salaried bfficers who were transferred to of Professional Engineers, Australia, Elec­ the commission from the Sydney County tricity Commission group, has made rep­ Council, the Department of Railways and resentations concerning anomalies, inade­ the Balmain Electric Light Company were quacies and inequities in the differing required by statute to remain in the super­ superannuation schemes. The association annuation scheme applicable to them at the has pointed out that though the commission time of their transfer. has taken steps to introduce uniform rates of pay and to enstue that all employees Likewise, officers who were transferred enjoy the same leave entitlements after their to the commission from the Tamworth City transfer, the anomalies that exist in the Council in accordance with an agreement superannuation entitlements of salaried made under the Electricity Commission Act officers in similar age and salary ranges were required to remain in their present have remained uncorrected. The circum­ superannuation scheme white otlicers who stances I have just outlined have resulted in were transferred to the commission frctn an anomalous situation, and the hill, by the Snowy Mountains Authority in accord­ providing the machinery for salaried officefs ance with an agreement reached between to elect to join the State superannuation the governments of the Commonwealth and fund, rectifies the anomaly and corrects a the State of New South Wales, were also matter that has caused aggravation to required to contribute to th~ superannua­ ce:Nain officers of the commission. tion scheme which provided equivalent bene­ fits to those provided by the Commonwealth Honourable members may be aware that Superannuation Fund. Also, as mentioned the Buteau of Government Superannuation at the introductory stage, wages employees Research was recently established by my whom the commission promoted to salaried colleague the Minister of Justice to assist positions have also been required to remain •the Government in providing for Virtually in the superannuation scheme applicable to all employees w1thin the government sector them as wages employees. equitable superannuation cover-. This bureau The position now is that employees of consults both employers and employees. In the commission contribute to the following discussions held by officers of the commis­ superannuation schemes; the State Super­ sion with the bureau it was decided to ex­ annuation Fund; th€ Local Government tend an option to contribute to the State (Insurance and/ or Provident) Fund; the superannuation fund to a group of salaried Local Government (Benefits) Fund; the officers of the commission who were medic­ Railway Superannuation Account; the ally rejected as contributors to tlie fund Transport Retirement Ftmd; the NonoCon­ before the introduction of the limited" benefits category on 1st July, 1960, and so, tributory Sydney County Council Retiring Allowance Scheme; and the Balmain Staff upon rejection from that fund, were made Pension Fund. In addition, the commission contributors to a local government super­ annuation fundj thus being caused to forgo has established a fund to provide benefits equivalent to the Commonwealth Super· the right of election to contribute to the annuation Fund to cover certain salaried State superannuation fund for limited staff transferred from the Snowy Mountains benefits from 1st july, 1960. The extension Authority. of this option would help about fifty-six Mr Fife] Electricity Commission [27 MAR., 1973] (Superannuation) Bill 4049 officers of the commission. This move ap­ they have complete information, the date pears to be just and equitable. The Minis­ of commencement of the election period ter of Justice, having the benefit of a report is not being specified, but will be appointed from the Bureau of Government Superan­ when it is known that the information is nuation Research, has agreed to the exten­ available. sion of this option. The bill provides that in a period of three The majority of the officers of the com­ months from the date appointed by the State mission who will obtain the right to elect Superannuation Board and notified in the to join the State superannuation fund under Gazette, salaried officers transferred to the the bill are current contributors to a local commission from other organizations and government superannuation scheme. The those rejected as contributors to the State president of the Local Government Super­ superannuation fund prior to 1st July, annuation Board has approved the concept 1960, and wages staff of the commission of the bill and offered every assistance to already transferred to salaried staff, shall ensure the smooth transition of officers have the right to elect to contribute to the exercising their option, from the Local Gov­ State superannuation fund. Wages staff of ernment Superannuation Board's schemes to the commission who have their appoint­ the State superannuation fund. My col­ ment as a salaried officer confirmed after league the Minister of Justice has informed the date appointed by the State Superanua­ me that the New South Wales Retirement tion Board and notified in the Gazette have Board and the State Superannuation Board a period of three months, or such extended have no objection to the provisions of the period as the State Superannuation Board bill and will assist in its implementation. may allow to apply in writing for accept­ ance as a contributor to the State super­ Clause 2 is the longest clause in the bill annuation fund. and contains the machinery provisions. The process of offering the election to contribute There is provision for the State Super­ to the State superannuation fund com­ annuation Board to consider any election mences from a date to be determined by made out of time provided circumstances the State Superannuation Board and noti­ so warrant. This will avoid any officer be­ fied in the Government Gazette. The reason ing at a disadvantage because he did not that the initial right to contribute to the receive election brochures, or because of State superannuation fund is not specified, sickness or other genuine reason he was un­ and will remain to be appointed by the able to reply in writing within the pre­ State Superannuation Board, is that the scribed time. The commission officer wish­ determination of this date depends upon ing to contribute to the State superannua­ the availability of a mass of detailed in­ tion fund applies in writing to the State formation, which must be collected from Superannuation Board within the prescribed the various superannuation schemes to period or any extension thereof and then which the affected commission officers are submits himself for medical examination presently contributing. This is to enable by the chief medical officer of the Govern­ concise and accurate brochures to be ment. The meeting of medical standards furnished by the State Superannuation is an essential requirement in view of the Board to the affected officers so that the fundamental nature of the superannuation affected officers have an opportunity to fund,,the high death and breakdown cover make an informed decision in the best in­ of that fund, and the right of existing con­ terests of themselves and their families. tributors to that fund to have their interests protected against adverse selection by any It is expected that the data required will new group. be collected fairly quickly and that all necessary literature to be furnished to the After receipt of the report of the chief officers with the right of election will be medical officer, the State Superannuation available not long after assent to the legisla­ Board shall notify both the commission and tion. However, because it is in the interests the affected officer whether it will accept of the officers exercising the election that that officer as a contributor to the State 254 4050. Electricity Commission [ASSEMBLY] (Superannuation) Bill superannuation fund for full or limited State superannuation fund, and to partly benefits; or reject thllit officer. If an officer cover this liability the commission will apply who has elected to contribute to the State its credits from the previous scheme. superannuation fund is found, on medical examination to be acceptable for limited Clause 3 of the bill amends section 20c benefits only, he will be afforded an oppor­ of the Superannuation Act of 1916, so that tunity of revising his initial election to con­ the provision conferring a right on the tribute to the fund. Following receipt of a affected commission officer to contribute notification that he will be accepted as a over an extended period in respect of initial contributor to the State superannuation fund unit entitlement-subject to age qualifica­ for limited benefits, the officer has one tion being satisfied-may in future be en­ month or such further period as the State joyed by any new .entrant to .the State super­ Superannuation Board may allow to con­ annuation fund. Clause 3 contains also a firm in writing his application to contribute minor am~ndment to section 20B of the to the fund. The officer will be required to Superannuation Act, associated with the withdraw completely and for all time from purchase of fully paid units. These amend­ his present scheme. Where the Electricity ments are desirable from the viewpoint of Commission is notified that the affected uniformly treating government employees officer intends to take up his option to join generally and the amendments have been the State superannuation fund it shall notify approved by the Minister of Justice. Clause the affected officer's previous superannua­ 4 of the bill amends section 62 of the New tion scheme. South Wales Retirement Benefits Act of 1972, by specifying the benefit and method The clause under discussion and the of payment of the benefit due in circum­ schedule appended to that clause set forth stances where under that section an em­ the manner in which withdrawal benefits ployee withdraws from the New South shall be paid from the different government Wales retirement fund in order to con­ superannuation schemes to which the tribute to another government superannua­ affected officers are presently contributing. tion scheme. This amendment is necessary Broadly, the principle in forming this part to cover cases which in future wiU arise in of the legislation is that employee contribu­ respect of certain wages staff of the com­ tions plus interest accumulated thereon shall mission transferred to the salaried staff. be available to the officer on withdrawal and The benefit and method of payment are in employer contributions plus interest accum­ line with the provisions generally contained ulated thereon shall be available to the em­ in the bill, affecting withdrawals from the ?loyer. The clause requires that the with­ other government ·superannuation schemes drawal benefit in total-that is, both the affected by this option. The Minister of employee and the employer part of it-shall Justice, who is responsible for the adminis­ be ;>aid to the Electricity Commission of tration of the New South Wales Retirement New South Wales, which shall use the em­ Benefits Act of 1972, approves of the ployee portion to purchase for the officer amendment. I consider it appropriate that fully paid units in the State superannuation the administration of this bill be allocated fund. The employer portion shall be used to my colleague the Minister of Justice as by the commission to meet the commission's the provisions relate generally to the State liability ari~ing under the Superannuation superannuation fund. Act of 1916. Subject to the normal options I have now explained very generally and contained in the Superannuation Act of briefly the principal features of the bill. 1916, officers electing to contribute to the There are, however, one or two further State superannuation fund will be required aspects of this operation which should be to contribute for the residue of units ap­ clarified. Essentially, the bill provides an propriate to their salary after allowing for the purchase of fully paid units. The Elec­ option. No officer is being required to leave tricity Commission has a full employer one scheme for another. There is purely a liability to the State superannuation fund in choice to be exercised and if any officer respect <>f any of its officers entering the feel£ that in his particular circumstances MrFije] Electricity Commission [27 MAR., 1973] (Superannuation) BiU 4051 he is better served remaining in his present count for purposes of aggregating the scheme, then obviously he will not choose period of ten years to which I have referred. to contribute to the State superannuation It will not count, however, for voluntary fund. I make that point because it is neces­ early retirement between age fifty-five and sary now to draw attention to the interests sixty years, nor for the subsidized with­ of the whole body of members of the State drawal benefit payable on resignation, nor superannuation fund whose rights must be for attracting the pension increase payable protected in the situation which this bill will on retirement at age sixty-two years or later. bring into being. The honourable member The reason service prior to the commem:e­ for Lake Macquarie raised a question at the ment of contribution to the State super­ introductory stage regarding the standard annuation fund will not count in these in­ of medical fitness required in the case of stances derives from the principle to which those commission officers wishing to join I have already referred-that is, that the the State superannuation fund. That stan­ interests of existing fund members must dard must be the normal standard applying always be protected in considering the ad­ in that scheme. To lower that standard mission of any new groups to the scheme. would be against the interests of existing In the voluntary retirement case, the pen­ fund members. Such an action and the pre­ sion values are related to a minimum con­ cedent it would create therefore cannot be tribution period of ten years and if con­ contemplated. To appreciate this situation tributions have not been paid to the State fully, one has only to have regard to superannuation fund for that minimum the high level of death and breakdown bene­ period, the figures will not be validly applic­ fits available in the fund in question. In any able. In the other two cases the costs of the case, admission to the State superannuation benefits referred to is met, wholly in one fund as a contributor for limited benefits instance and partly in the other, from rather than full benefits may well be re­ earnings generated by the fund's invest­ garded as acceptable. The limited benefits ment; consequently only a period during area of the State superannuation fund has which contributions were available for in­ been vastly improved by this Government's vestment by the fund is relevant to any Superannuation (Amendment) Act of 1969. individual's case. This bill extends to more If, however, a limited benefits classification than 1500 officers of the commission the is not acceptable to a particular officer, then opportunity to join the State superannuation of course he has the right to remain in the fund and introduces uniformity of super­ scheme to which he at present contributes. annuation rights among salaried officers I am reliably informed that the risk of total of the Electricity Commission of New rejection from the State superannuation South Wales, thereby correcting an ano­ fund on medical grounds is quite minor. malous situation. I commend the bill to the house. The question has been raised whether any administrative delay in the implementation Mr M. L. HUNTER (Lake Macquarie) of this legislation would prevent an officer [10.21]: I commend the Minister and his aged sixty years or more from gaining ad­ officers for bringing this bill before the mission to the State superannuation fund. House. It is legislation that salaried officers I wish to assure honourable members that special provision is made in the bill for who have come up from the wages divisions eligible officers aged sixty years or more of the Electricity Commission of New South to exerise the option, provided they achiev­ Wales have looked forward to for a long ed salaried status prior to reaching the age time. Unfortunately the bill does not go of sixty years, and provided they can aggre­ far enough. It is unfortunate also that an gate the period of ten years service neces­ amendment I had proposed to move cuts sary for retirement with normal pension from the State superannuation fund. In that across the principle of the bill and therefore regard, I should point out that service with I am unable to do what I intended. I had the Electricity Commission before admis­ hoped that when this amending legislation sion to the State superannuation fund will came before the House it would have had 4052 Electricity Commission [ASSEMBLY] (Superannuation) Bill a much broader basis than it has. I ex­ who prior to transfer had contributed to pected that this would be the appropriate different superannuation schemes. The time to bring all employees of the Elec­ superannuation scheme applicable to new tricity Commission into the State super­ salaried employees of the Electricity Com­ annuation fund or the New South Wales mission is the New South Wales super­ retirement fund. annuation fund. As was said on a number of occasions earlier this evening, it is un­ The Minister has answered the query I fortunate that employees recruited from posed at the introductory stage relating to outside the service were immediately medical requirements to be met by an em­ accepted into what is probably the best ployee transferring to the new scheme. I government superannuation scheme in this believe some concession should be granted State but others, who had given loyal ser­ to these employees because of the long time vice for many years, have been denied that they have awaited this legislation. In 1950 privilege. the Electricity Commission Act set up the Electricity Commission of New South Wales The Electricity Commision of New and enabled it to take over the undertakings South Wales was formed after the State of the Southern Electricity Supply of New had suffered a period of blackouts and South Wales, the Electric Light and Power other serious problems in maintaining elec­ Supply Corporation Limited and the Parra­ tricity supply. The former Labor Govern­ matta and Granville Electric Supply Com­ ment set up the commission and there is no pany Limited, as well as assuming respon­ doubt that it has proved to be worth­ sibility for generation of bulk supplies for while. Soon after the commission was the Sydney County Council and the De­ established several new power stations were partment of Railways. constructed at centres throughout the State-in the mountains, on the South The Electricity Commission Act provided Coast and on the· coalfields in the New­ that employees transferred from constituent castle area. bodies should be paid a salary or wage at a rate no less than the rate payable to them With the building of new and modern on transfer. It provided also that they should power stations, using new techniques and enjoy the same rights and privileges in re­ technology, the commission had to find spect of annual, sick, deferred or extended competent staff to operate its plant. It leave as if they had remained with their called upon its loyal and faithful servants, previous employer. The Act provided also many of whom had served electricity under­ for the continuation of superannuation takings through the war years and had been rights. Naturally, rates of pay, leave entitle­ involved in the changeover from private and semi-government undertakings to a ments and superannuation schemes differed government undertaking, to fill the operat­ between the various constituent bodies from ing positions. The commission called upon which employees were transferred. The new tradesmen in its construction divisions to commission quickly took steps to apply uni­ train for positions as operators of this highly form rates of pay for each wage and salary complex and technical plant. The Electricity classification and to ensure that all employ­ Commission set up schools to train these ees might enjoy the same leave entitlements. people and they reached high standards For example, when Sydney County Council of skill. The results were a credit to the employees became entitled to four weeks' instructors and the commission. Despite an annual leave, the commission followed its intensive training programme the commis­ early policy of avoiding anomalies between sion still needed more operators and began employees and offered them all four weeks' to train its employees in labourer classifica­ annual leave. tions to become operators. As more modern However, the commission has not made sections of power stations were opened, any attempt to correct the anomalies that bringing into operation modern turbines have existed in amounts contributed by em­ and boilers producing more and more ployees in various wage and salary ranges power, new techniques were used. Mr M. L. Hunter] Electricity Commission [27 MAR., 1973] (Superannuation) Bill 4053

Some of those who were trained earlier commission contributes an amount consider­ and went into operating jobs on the wages ably greater than it contributes under the side were chosen first to become salaried local-government scheme. In round figures, operators. They were made salaried officers it is 60 per cent from the commission to not only because the commission needed 40 per cent from the employer but under men possessed of the technical knowledge the local-government scheme it is on a and brains ,to operate the plant installed in 50-50 basis. new power stations but also because most power stations were experiencing some in­ I shall deal now with the period over dustrial turmoil. We must remember that which contributions have been paid. Under even though these men were given the op­ the State superannuation scheme contribu­ portunity to move from what we call the tions are payable until retirement, which wages operating positions to the salaried may be from age 55 onwards. Contribu­ operating positions it was more for the good tions cease at 60 years of age whereas under of the commission than for the benefit of the local-government scheme a man pays the workers. After some years of filling until 65, otherwise the policy is not paid these positions the men found that the up and the value to an employee who fin­ troubles had ironed themselves out and the ishes before that age is drastically reduced. commission was beginning to take on out­ The benefits under the State scheme are sidie staff. Again some industrial unrest payable from age 55 onwards at the dis­ arose in the power industry. The commis­ cretion of the employee with full benefit sion thought in its wisdom that by bringing available at 60 years of age. In some cases, in new blood it might be able to break down an employee may elect to work after age the strength of the salaried operating staff in 60 and gain financially. Under the local­ power stations. government scheme as we know it, no bene­ fits are payable until the employee reaches The new staff were in the happy position age 65. These are some of the reasons why of coming under the State superannuation those employees have been seeking for some fund once they had completed their qualify­ time to come under the State superannua­ ing period. The poor wages staff man who tion scheme. Under that scheme an em­ had gone through the hard times with the ployee who retires early because of sick­ commission and had been called upon to ness receives the full benefit for the number work long hours could not join the State of units that he holds but under the local­ fund. Those employees had no animosity government scheme no benefit is payable, toward the commission. They were willing to help the government of the day set up except a refund of the amount paid in. In good electricity undertakings while helping some cases the employee gets only some, themselves to live more comfortably. As in other cases all, the money paid in, de­ time went by, more new employees were re­ pendent upon the length of time the em­ cruited and the older employees became ployee has been in the scheme. agitated about their superannuation entitle­ The benefits under the State superannua­ ment. tion scheme for a person retired on the Let me compare .the State superannuation grounds of redundancy are about three and scheme with the local-government scheme, a half times the amount paid into the which covers a large percentage of wages scheme. Under the local-government scheme staff employees of the Electricity Commis­ the benefit payable is the same as the sion. Under the State scheme the value of amount that would be due to such an em­ the cover increases as the wage increases, ployee should he retire at age 60-that is, whereas under the local-government scheme he would receive only part of what he paid the maximum amount is $12,000. A new in. Under the State superannuation scheme, employee may start as a labourer and insure benefits may increase after retirement as a for the maximum amount but no matter result of revaluation of the unit. We saw how far ahead he gets in his job that maxi­ this happen recently. Prior to the 1971 mum amount remains the same. By contrast, elections both parties promised to increase under .the State superannuation scheme the State superannuation fund benefits and the 4054 Electricity Commission [ASSEMBLY] (Superannuation) Bill Government increased the value of the unit Mr MoRRIS: They are all underpaid and from $2.50 to $2.75, which made a con­ over-worked. siderable difference to what a retired person Mr M. L. HUNTER: The railway receives under the State superannuation workers are, and the Minister for Transport scheme. The local-government scheme pro­ should do something for them. People vides for a maximum cover of $12,000 do not realize what wages staff have missed with no further increases. Thus, as the cost out on for many years. I could give of living rises the value of the local-govern­ examples of people who came from the ment benefit decreases. Further, under the Sydney Counity Council to the Electricity State superannuation scheme, the employee Commission of New South Wales in the has a choice of receiving his superannuation early 1940's. Some of them had been as a pension or as a lump sum. He may salaried officers for years. This Government commute his pension, retaining a minimum and previous governments-! want to be pension of $20 a fortnight if he is single fair-have never given those people the or $34 a fortnight if he is married. No same rights as are given to people who choice is given under the local-government now join the commission as salaried officers. superannuation scheme. There is something radically wrong with On retirement under the State superan­ the Act when it speaks of power station nuation scheme, tax is paid on 5 per cent superintendents and top engineers within of the lump sum received on retirement. the Electricity Commission of New South Better still, if the pension is received for Wales who come into this category. It is only a short time and then commuted, no pleasing that at last the Act is being tax is paid on this sum. Under the local­ amended, but the amendment does not go government superannuation scheme, tax is far enough. The poor old wages staff are paid on 5 per cent of the sum received on left out. The commission could not func­ retirement. tion without those people and they are just as important as any other employees. All these things add up. On joining the Electricity Commission of New South Wales, Let me give an example of what these salaried staff are entitled to join the State people are missing out on. My figures are superannuation scheme. Wages employees, not up to date for they have been worked even though they have many years of ser­ out on a unit value of $2.50. They would vice, on transferring to the salaried staff can­ be much more now that the unit has been not join the State superannuation scheme. increased to $2.75. An operator grade 13 That is why it is pleasing to see this bill retires at 60 years of age on a pension of introduced in its present form. The Minis­ $225 a fortnight, or he can receive ter mentioned that approximately 1,500 em­ $48,000 in a lump sum plus a pension of ployees would be involved in the change­ $34 a fortnight. Under the local-govern­ over. They should be pleased with the ment scheme he retires at 60 years of age change. Unfortunately, the other thousands and receives a lump sum of $19,000 to who will remain wages employees will miss $20,000, but no pension. It is easy to see out. Opposition members hope that in the that be works for five more years and pays near future all employees in State instru­ premiums for five years more than his mentalities will be given the opportunity to counterpart under the State superannuation belong to the best superannuation scheme scheme, but receives less benefit. It is no available. Even members of the Legislative wonder that men belonging to such an Assembly are not denied any rights. All organization are discontented. members are allowed to join the one scheme, and this applies to the Premier, I have spoken about the discrimination Ministers and backbenchers. I do not know against the wages staff of the Electricity know whether one would classify members Commission of New South Wales. Another of the Legislative Assembly as salaried staff example is that approximately two years or wages staff. ago the Minister agreed to an investigation Mr M. L. Hunter] Electricity Commission Bill [27 MAR., 1973] Adjournment 4055

by the Industrial Commission of New SOuth conferred on employees who have com­ Wales into a reduction of hours in the menced service virtually in the past five electricity generating. industry. What a joke! minutes. The men to whom I refer have More than 50 per cent of the employees given loyal service. They were the ones of the Electricity Commission of New South who helped to carry the electricity under­ Wales are now working a 35-hour week, takings of this State through their darkest but the poor relations, the wages staff, are years. They were the experienced men who still working 40 hours. The present Govern­ were trained by the commission for posi­ ment and future governments will have to tions of trust. I ask the Minister to give look at this anachronism. Employees should serious consideration, prior to the Commit­ not be discriminated against and the time tee stage, to preparing an appropriate will shortly come when the wages staff of amendment to extend this concession to the electricity commission will say, "We these employees. have to be treated the same as the people Many people who have not worked in or who are running around in white overalls". near a power station believe that it is a I hope that the Minister will be able to soft job, but they should carry out an in­ visit the power industry-not only the spection and see what hazards exist. One power stations, but the depots and other of the main hazards these days is noise pol­ works-and talk to the men and get to lution, which will shortly play a prominent understand their position. Then perhaps the part in this country. The noise in the old Minister will be able to advise the Govern­ power stations was bad enough, but the ment that these men should be treated modern power stations and the whining equally with other employees. I now turn noises that are associated with them are briefly to the medical requirements that most disturbing places in which to work. these pepole have to meet. It is my inten­ When the Government comes to realize tion in Committee to move a suitable what harm is being done by noise in these amendment. It is unfortunate that the Min­ establishments, it will act quickly and con­ ister has already indicated that he has to duct a full examination to assess the harm safeguard the existing participants in the to the worker. superannuation scheme by maintaining For the reasons I have advanced, the medical requirements at a certain standard. Electricity Commission and the Minister should give consideration to the employees I am talking of the employees of the who have given long and faithful service. Electricity Commission who have given These men should be given an opportunity long service-some of them for thirty to transfer to the State superannuation years-who came from the county council scheme. Employees covered by the police and other bodies. When they were accepted retirement fund and the railways retirement into the superannuation scheme that applied fund are in the one superannuation scheme. to their original organization they were I believe this should be taken into account subject to a medical examination, but when and, in the near future, a further bill intro­ they joined the Electricity Commission they duced to allow the employees of the Elec­ were required to take a further medical tricity Commission to participate in the examination. Of course, other medical State superannuation scheme. examinations would be called for when they sought to increase their commitments Debate adjourned on motion by Mr under the superannuation scheme. I believe Haigh. it would be a fair compromise to provide that employees should be exempt from fur­ ther medical examination after serving for ADJOURNMENT at least ten years. I am not referring to CAR STEALING FILM-DUBIOUS CONTRACTS new employees; that is a different story. Mr FIFE (Wagga Wagga), Minister for My concern is for men who, when in Mines, Minister for Power and Assistant their prime, began their careers years ago Treasurer [10.55]: I move: but are now to be denied the benefits being That this House do now adjourn. 4056 Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Adjournment Mr BARRACLOUGH (Bligh) [10.55]: I like his reference to others; I suppose he The calendar shows that next Sunday week was referring to the tens of thousands of is April Fools' Day. By tradition, up to car owners in this State. noon on this day people play tricks on each other. However, on April Fools' Day this Mr MoRRIS: Yes, two and a half million year this foolery will be carried beyond of them. 6 p.m. by the Australian Broadcasting Com­ mission, through television station ABN 2, Mr BARRACLOUGH: That is so. which will show a television film entitled Naturally I had not seen the film before I "Wheeling and Stealing". In raising this as a matter of urgency because "Wheeling and sent the telegram. How could I, as the Stealing" is a film on how to steal a motor member for Bligh, have seen the pro­ vehicle, I believe I am speaking on behalf gramme? In this House today the Leader of tens of thousands of people who own of the Opposition quoted from a transcript motor cars, who must be appalled· to learn of a programme called "This Day Tonight", that .the Australian Broadcasting Commis­ which was shown on television last Friday sion would present such a film. at half past seven, but when the honour­ A newspaper cutting describes this film able member for Upper Hunter telephoned under the heading "Car Stealing a 'contest' the Australian Broadcasting Commission for the Young!" I suppose a motorist whose today he was told that he would have to car is stolen is comforted by the thought that wait for two days for a copy of the tran­ it is a safe bet that some kids have taken it. This article emphasizes that most car script. How could I have had an oppor­ stealing in New South Wales is being car­ tunity to see this film before I sent my ried out by young people. I understand that telegram? Senator McClelland's letter con­ the programme is to he shown because of tinued: child delinquency in Newcastle, but the In any event, I am assured by the Acting context of a message I have received from General Manager of the A.B.C. (Dr Semmler) Sena.tor the Hon. Douglas McClelland, the that the programme is completely different from Minister for the Media, suggests to me that what might have been imagined by anyone the whole object of the programme is to reading the press reports. try to stop children from stealing motor I am inclined ·to pay more regard to the vehicles. However, I am concerned that press reports. One paragraph in the Daily this programme will show people who have Mirror report of 19th March stated: never stolen a motor car just how easy it is to do it. Last Thursday, to express my Two "reformed car thieves" acted as techni­ concern, I sent a telegram to Senator Mc­ cal advisers, using a Monaro which was parked Clelland. I shall not read the telegram; it in a street off Broadway. was simply an expression of my concern It was then that we were shown how a car on behalf of the car owners of this State could be stolen in four seconds. that .this film was to be shown. On the And we also found out that these thieves following day I received a reply from the do everything legally after they make the snatch, using their seatbelts, correct signals senator, saying that he had received my tele­ and never speed in the city. gram and that he would carry out an in­ vestigation. On the following Monday I Steering locks don't worry them either. received from the senator a letter dated 23rd It is nice to know that they use the seat March, in these terms: belts, but it is not very nice for the person Dear Mr Barraclough: I have your telegram who has lost his car. The driver of the of March 22 about the ABC's programme "Wheeling and Stealing". car might be a company representative and I can understand that some newspaper pub­ the car might be the means of his earning licity about the show may have caused mis­ his livelihood. His car, after being stolen, apprehension to you and others and assume that you sent your telegram to me without might be driven away, stripped and then having seen the programme. pushed into the ocean. He would have to Adjournment [27 MAR., 1973] . Adjournment 4051 wait for three months before he could make Mr MoRRIS: Why was Newcastle chosen? any claim against the insurance company. In that time he may lose his position. Mr BARRACLOUGH: After sending The Australian Broadcasting Commis­ certain telegrams I received a brief account sion must have a sense of humour as it of the film. It goes ·to the question whether proposes to show the film next Sunday night young people who stole cars did so because -April Fool's Day. On that day the com­ they were bored. One offender from New­ castle said: munity will be shown how to steal a motor vehicle. The federal Minister continued: Oh definitely. Nothing better to do. There's only two dances in Newcastle and they're blood It is, I am told, an authoritative and well­ baths anyway ... fights and everything. balanced story dealing with the problems of youth delinquency and calculated to assist Gov­ They may have problems in Newcastle but ernment and other workers seeking to reduce the shocking incidence of crimes by young I fail to see why the Australian Broadcast­ people. The impression it is likely to make, ing Commission should insult every car I understand, is as a deterrent to the admittedly far too common misdemeanour of car stealing. owner in New South Wales and perhaps in Australia by showing this film. How can it act as a deterrent? It will show thieves how to steal a motor car. I am not Mr MoRRIS: There is more car stealing making accusations against young people at Woollahra and Coogee than there is at but sta6stics establish that most car steal­ Newcastle. ing is perpetrated by people under 20 years of age. The film will show these young Mr BARRACLOUGH: My word there people how to get wheels in order to pick is. No one can leave a car in the street. up a bird. I am shocked that a responsible In most areas today car owners leave their television station in Australia would show cars beside a telegraph pole and put a chain this film. It is to be shown in New South from the car around the pole. The film is Wales on April Fool's Day and I have no designed to encourage car stealing. This is doubt that it will be shown throughout Aus­ an irresponsible act on the part of the Aus­ tralia ultimately. The Minister said also: tralian Broadcasting Commission. I ask the I have treated your representations as a Minister of Justice to use all his endeavours matter of urgency, as you requested, but am to persuade Senator McClelland to tell the encouraged to believe that you are wrong in your assumption that telecasting of the film Australian Broadcasting Commission not to would lead to a higher rate of car stealing. show this film. Senator McClelland has said I do not share the view of the Minister. that he does not like ministerial direction I am sure that the Commissioner of Police but that course of action is used in other in this State, his officers and men will share fields by the present federal Government. my concern that this programme will en­ Will the Minister use his endeavours to see courage many people who have never stolen that the film is not shown on April Fool's a motor vehicle to do so. I ask the Minister Day? If it is shown, every car owner in of Justice on behalf of 2.5 million car New South Wales will be an April fool. owners in New South Wales to use his min­ isterial powers in an endeavour to persuade Mr HAIGH (Maroubra) [11.5]: I bring Senator McClelland to make sure that the to the attention of the House a matter in film is not shown. It is my belief that this regard to an advertisement which appeared film can do great harm to the interests of in the Sydney Morning Herald in October, the car owners of this State. The film will 1972, and I believe should be regarded as a not aid the problem of child delinquency in dubious business enterprise. I have a statu­ the Newcastle area. tory declaration from Vincent Patrick Walsh 4058 Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Adjournment of 21 Florence Avenue, Eastlakes, who re­ I ask the Minister to have the fraud ferred to the fact that he answered an squad investigate the contracts that were .advertisement. drawn up for these two dealings. Also, will Mr SPEAKER: What is the date of the the Minister have the trade name Mist-Repel statutory declaration? investigated to see whether it is a registered trade name. It is purported to be manu­ Mr HAIGH: 7th March, 1973. He answered an advertisement in the Sydney factured in New South Wales under licence Morning Herald regarding a half share in from Germany. If it can be established that there is such a trade name and that the a fumigating and purifying business guaran­ product is being manufactured under teed to return $100 a week for an invest­ licence, will the Minister establish the asso­ ment of $2,000. The gentleman I have ciation between the vendor and the manu­ named saw the vendor and talked to him. facturer? Further, will the Minister estab­ The vendor produced references from lish the validity of the estate agent who Queensland where he lives and also referred gave an assurance on the genuiness of the to an estate agent, who gave a guarantee vendor who entered into this contract? I of the genuiness of this vendor. I shall not make the statutory declaration available to refer to the name of the estate agent or to the Minister. that of the vendor but I hope the matter will be investigated and that a statement Mr MADDISON (Hornsby), Minister of may be made to this House later in regard Justice [11.9]: In regard to the matter raised to the practice. On 26th October, 1972, by the honourable member for Bligh, may the gentleman concerned paid $2,000 for I say at once that from the facts he has a contract for a half share in the fumigating provided all members would be concerned and purifying business. The business was that an authority such as the Australian to use a product that has the trade name Broadcasting Commission would permit a Mist-Repel. programme in the form outlined to be The vendor guaranteed to pay $100 a shown. It is clear on the evidence that week from the signing of the contract and throughout the world people are stimulated thereafter until twelve months had expired, to commit crimes by things they see por­ and if the business ceased to operate after trayed. Here we have what I believe is a twelve months a total amount of $2,000 reprehensible attitude displayed by the would be refunded. The vendor immediate­ Minister for the Media, when he said that ly commenced the payments as the contract because the Australian Broadcasting Com­ specified and on 1st December, 1972, the mission is an independent authority he has mother of the gentleman, Mrs Walsh, paid no powers of direction. the vendor $2,000 for another half share in the same business under a contract that It seems to me that we should expect a guaranteed her the same conditions. Every­ greater degree of responsibility to be shown thing seemed to go all right until 15th Dec­ by the Australian Broadcasting Commission ember, 1972, when payments on both con­ and by the Minister for the Media, Senator tracts ceased. The vendor has not been con­ the Hon. Douglas McClelland who, I tacted since. That means that the gentleman believe, even if he has no p0wer of direc­ and his mother paid over $4,000 for two tion, should condemn this programme as half shares in a business and have received one which cannot be held to be in the best payments of $900. This sort of thing leads interests of the security of the citizens of me t0 believe that this would be a dubious New South Wales. I can think of nothing business enterprise. worse than depicting by means of television, Adjournment [27 MAR., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers4059 ways and means whereby cars may be sto­ manently unfit for further service. In such ltn. Whether or not the programme re­ cases, the police medical officer, when of ferred to by the honourable member for the opinion that the health of a member Bligh goes beyond that is another matter. of the force warrants such action, recom­ I cannot make any further comment. I am mends to the Commissioner of Police that limited in the powers I have and the Gov­ such member be examined by the police ernment is limited in its powers in this medical board with a view to establishing sphere. However, I shall do all I can with his fitness to continue to perform the duties the federal Minister for the Media to ascer­ of his office. The decision of the police tain whether some action might be taken to medical board is final. The numbers of prevent this particular programme from members of the force who have been re­ being televised. tired from the force in the years referred to following certification by the police medi­ With regard to the matter raised by the cal board that they were permanently unfit honourable member for Maroubra, I shall for police service were- look closely at the statutory declaration he has submitted. I shall refer to the Premier 1965 25 and Treasurer the matter of whether the 1966 21 fraud squad should look into the circum­ 1967 39 stances the honourable member has brought forward and take such other action as I 1968 51 have within my powers to look into the 1969 32 matter. 1970 47 1971 17 Motion agreed to. 1971 24 House adjourned at 11.10 p.m. ( 2) and ( 3 ) No right of appeal presently exists in such cases. However, Cabinet re­ cently approved of the preparation of legis­ lation to provide members of the police PRINTED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS force with a right of appeal to the Crown Employees Appeal Board in respect of de­ The following questions upon notice and cisions that the medical unfitness by reason answers were distributed. of which they were discharged from the police force was not occasioned by any POLICE MBDICAL EXAMINATIONS wound or injury received in circumstances Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND which would entitle such members to be TREASURER-For each year since 1st Jan­ granted a "hurt-on-duty" superannuation uary, 1965-(1) How many police officers allowance. have been found medically unfit by the police surgeon? (2) How many of these officers have appealed against the police CHLORINATED HYDRO-CARBONS surgeon's decision? (3) How many of these IN MILK police officers have succeeded in their Mr F. J. WALKER asked the MINISTER appeals? FOR HEALTH-(1) Does his department Answer-(1) It is presumed that the carry out tests on milk for human consump­ information sought relates to members of tion to ascertain the levels of chlorinated the police force who are found to be per- hydro-carbons? (2) If the answer to ( 1) is 4060Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers in the affirmative-(a) What is the extent and Inverell, Orange and Bathurst, and of such tests throughout the State and what Wagga Wagga, Leeton and Narrandera. procedures are involved in carrying out the Also "special" samples of suspected high tests? (b) Since 1965, on how many occa­ residues are submitted from time to time. sions have such tests shown levels so high that the milk was unfit for human consump­ The samples are taken in .clean, glass tion? (c) Have any prosecutions been bottles which have been rinsed with special launched against offending dairies? solvents and are kept at a cold temperature during transit. The methods of analysis used Answer-(1) Yes. are based on a final identification and mea­ surement using specialized gas chromato­ (2) (a) Samples are submitted by offi­ graphy instruments. cers of the Dairy Industry Authority and are collected from milk distributing districts (b) These tests were commenced on 29th of New South Wales. At the present stage November, 1967, when 8 samples were the areas being covered, known as equitable examined as a pilot survey. The major sur­ distribution areas·, extend from Milton on vey was commenced in 1968 when 156 the South Coast to the Manning River and samples were analysed. 115 samples were Wauchope districts on the North Coast and examined in 1969, 55 samples in 1970, 70 in the west to Muswellbrook and Aberdeen, samples in 1971, 34 samples in 1972 and extending southwards to Lithgow and the 12 samples have been analysed to date in Blue · Mountains area and including Gout­ 1973. The tolerance levels recommended by burn on the Southern Tablelands. These the National Health and Medical Research areas will eventually cover the entire State Council (N.H.M.R.C.) (72nd session May, of New South Wales. "Island" areas have 1971) for residues of pesticides in milk are also been covered and include Tamworth listed as follows:

Pesticide Aldrin DDT Dieldrin Lindane Fat Basis 125 1250 125 200 Whole milk 5 50 5 8 These figures are given in parts per 1000 million or parts per billion (ppb). The mean values in parts per billion (ppb) obtained for the various pesticides, and the numbers of samples having more than the prescribed tolerance levels for the years 1968 to 1972 are tabulated below: 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 (156 Samples) (88 Samples) (51 Samples) (59 Samples (34 Samples) Number Number Number Number Number Pesticide Mean exceeding Mean exceeding Mean exceeding Mean exceeding Mean exceeding tolerance tolerance tolerance tolerance tolerance Total DDT .. 29·1 16 22·4 13 3·3 5 2 10 2 Dieldrin .. 2·8 20 1•6 2 2·8 6 4 5 2 Lindane .. 2·0 9 Trace 0·3 Trace Aldrin .. Trace Heptachlor epoxide .. Trace 2 B.H.C. and Isomers .. Trace • Trace Endrin •• . . Trace • Methoxychlor .. . . Trace • H.C.B ... Trace

• Not determined. Trace. Less than lppb. . . None found or insufficient samples for sigmficant mean. Printed Questions and Answers [27 MAR., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers406l

The percentage of samples exceeding 50 city is also expected. (2) Police surgeon­ ppb DDT from 1968 to 1972 are 10.3%, M.B., B.S.(Melb.), D.T.M. & H. (Syd.). 14.8%, 0, 3.4%, and 5.9% respectively. Assistant police surgeon-M.B., B.S. (Syd.). The percentage of samples having levels greater than ppb dieldrin from 1968 to 1972 BUSH NURSING ASSOCIATION OF NEW are 12.8%, 2.3%, 11.8%, 8.5% and 14.7% SOUTH WALES respectively. In 1968 5.7% of samples ex­ Mr GORDON asked the MINISTER FOR ceeded the tolerance level for lindane and HEALTH-(1) How much is paid annually 1.9% for aldrin. Up till 28th February, to the Bush Nursing Association of New 1973, 12 samples were analysed and 4 had South Wales central management by the greater than 50 ppb total DDT and 2 sam­ New South Wales Government? (2) How much is paid to each bush nursing centre ples contained greater than 5 ppb dieldrin. by the central administration? (3) How (c) All the samples examined to date many patients are treated annually by each have been submitted either by the Milk bush nursing centre? Board or its successor the Dairy Industry Answer-(1) Prior to 1971-1972, Authority of New South Wales. It is under­ $18,000 per annum; 1971-1972, $28,000 stood that the Dairy Industry Authority bas per annum; 1972-1973, $40,000 per annum. stopped from at least one source the supply of milk which greatly exceeded the recom­ (2) No fixed amount is paid to each mended tolerances. The New South Wales bush nursing centre. I am informed that Health Department has not taken milk the amount granted is consequent upon samples for pesticide residue analysis since request for supplementation by the indivi­ there is, as yet, no effective regulation cover­ dual centre and approval by the Bush Nurs­ ing this under the Pure Food Act, 1908. ing Association Council. However, a draft regulation based on the ( 3) The number of patients treated 72nd session of the National Health and annually for the past two financial years Medical Research Council is at present still is as follows: under consideration by the council and it is anticipated that this will eventually be in­ 1971- 1970- Centre 1972 1971 corporated into the New South Wales regu­ 1,720 1,845 lations. Bemboka *Bribbaree 924 1,874 *Carinda 630 953 Darlington Point 2,068 2,509 POLICE SURGEON Enngonia 272 1,333 Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND Lightning Ridge 3,646 3,560 TREAsURER-( 1) What are the qualifica­ Mangrove Mountain 1,316 1,250 tions necessary for appointment as police Moulamein 2,276 3,104 surgeon? (2) What are the qualifications *Nimmitabel 534 1,172 of the present police surgeon and assistant *Pooncarie 485 601 Quambone 1,238 1,232 police surgeon? Tambar Springs 1,737 2,546 Answer-( 1) The qualifications necessary Tullibigeal 2,464 1,586 *Ulong .. 404 for appointment as police surgeon are that Wanaaring 686 724 the appointee must be a registered medical Weethalle 1,430 2,285 practitioner in New South Wales with sound professional medical knowledge and wide Total .. 21,426 26,978 professional general experience. An interest in physiology as well as sound clinical capa- * Now closed.