DOCUMENT RESUME

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AUTHOR Bell, Derrick A., Jr. TITLE School Desegregation: Constitutional Right or Obsolete Policy? [and Seminar Discussion]. PUB DATE 16;May 74 788.; Paper presented at theSeminar on Public Policy NOTE I (Center for Urban Studies, HarvardUniversity, Cambridge, Massachusetts, May 16, 1974); Best-Copy Available

EDRS PRICE MF-$0.76 HC-$4.43 PLUS POSTAGE DESCRIPTORS *Change Strate ies; Civil Rights; ConstitutionalLaw; *Educational Cha e; Educational Needt;Educational Opportunities; Edutional Policy; Educational Problems; *Equal Edution; Negro Education; Political Issues; *Publi. Policy; *School Integration; Urban Education

ABSTRACT In his presentation at the start/of the seminar, the author Argues that the total commitmentof,civ4 r5qhts groups to school integration as the sole means forenabling black children to obtain the "equal educational opportunity" guarnteed then by the Supreme Court is not only obsoletepolicy, but, reflects a wasteful, dangerous and demeaning refusal to considerat ernative remedies at a time when meaningful school desegregationis firtually impossible in many communities. Theinsistence on integratig every public school that is black perpetuates the raciallydemeOing and unproven assumption that blacks must have a majority-fihite presencein order to either teacher or learn effectively.Thim assumption limits the definition of "integrated schools" to those/which are predominantly white. The current massive commitment to sOool integration by the national office Of the NAACP, the Legal DeeenseFund, and virtually every other legal agencywith sufficient ,e,egal and financial resources to effectiire represent theeduciAtional interests of black and other minoFity group students, isquettionable on grounds of: (1) historical precedent;(2) parental prior ties; (3) educational expertise; and, (4) legal strategies. (Alithor/JM) 0111

S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH EDUCATION & WEI FARE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF EDUCATION The CL.:0:(..1. for Urban Studies THIS DOCUMENT HASBF t Pt Pi0C, DUCE° EXACTLY C NU(+fst 0 ,kOM :,;'.:hool of 2.:-!ueaticin THE PERSON OR OH,..NI/A71(tNOgiCAN CD ATiNG ITP.5 .NT5n,- tai (-31. ,1771m- ft 0071 tarrcrf-ed-low---11713-: STATED DO NOT NICE s,Akt, r wEPGE SENT OFF ,C,AL NA TIONA. NST Tlo,r Or Thun.da, May 16, 1974 EDUCATION POSITION O'k POE IY

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SCHOOL nLSEGREGATIO:7: CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT OR OBSOLETE POLICY? Derrick-A. Bell, Jr.*

Introduction

In my view, the answer to thequestion posed in the

title of this article is this: Thetotal commitment of civil

rights groups to school integEationas the sole means for

enE,bling black chi)dren to obtain the "equal educational

oppc,rtl:nity" ciranteed th:m by theEupren.e Court two decades

ago n Hr:)n neard of r;iucaticn is not only obsolete

but rc-flects a wasteful, danol-ous, anddemeaning refusal to

consi,:Zr alternative remedies at a time when meaningfulschool

desegrecption is virtually i!Apossible in many communities.

Total reliance on school integration is wastefulbecause

it dcp,iv3.s.courts and governmentalcivil rights agencies of

the fle;:ni]ity needed to formulate viable educational

remedies in situations where schooldesegregation is not

feasible because of geographica) conditione,population

conentrations, or finanelal limitations. The absence of

such alternative rcmedies condemns thousandsof black children

to reL.ain in racial)y-i:,oLated andeducationally-bankl:not

sehoolf,.

pres::ure for !.chool int-grationun.Th] 11

conaiLion';, reg(irdftss of it cost and disrupt:.vepotentiAl,

BEST COPY AVAILABLE SC11001, DESEGnEGATION Derrick A. Boll, Jr. Page 2

and while the educational(as opposed to constitutional) benefits to beobtained'are unproven, is dangerous. Such pressure is slowlyeroding the judicial supportfor school desegregation built up overthe-years. Courts are refusing expenditures to approve desegregationplans that call for great

of money, time, andeffort, and are givingincreasing attention scrape and save to the "frustration ofinnocent Americans who

money to buy ahome in a niceresidential neighborhood, near Land) find their planshave been a public school . . . 2 destroyed,by the judgment of afederal court."

Finally, the insistence, onintegrating every public sc4olthat is black, perpetuatesthe raciallydemeaning majority- and unproven assumptionthat blacks must have a white presence in order toeither teach or learneffectively. benefit of This assumption mars thepotential psychological

education for blacks bylimiting the definitionof "integrated

schools" to those which arepredeminantly white. More blacks in the role ofsubordinates in ' importantly, it casts

every aspect ofthe public school process,enabling school

systems to boast that theyhave complied with Drown,while that all effectively relegating blackchildren to a status

too frequently is"integrated and unequal." SCHOOL DESEGPLGATTON Derrick A. Bell, Jr.

.

The current massive commitmentto school integration ' by the national office ofthe NAACP, the LegalDefense Fund, and virtually every otherlegal agency with sufficientlegal and financial resources toeffectively represent theeduca- tional interests of black andother minority-groupstudents, is questionable on groundsof: (1) historical, precedent; and (2) parental priorities;(3) educational expertise;

(4) legal strategies. Before reviewing each ofthese areas in detail, itis

ti appropriate -- even necessary --to respond to thetraditional

charge by civil rights groupsthat any divergence from or

criticism of their schoolpolicy of unconditionalintegration of black must be consideredantithetical to the interests the people, and ammunition forracists who wish to overturn

Brown decision and re-establishcompulsory, segregated.

schools. I.recognize with ProfessorCharles Hamilton, whostated, worked for desegregatedschools ". . . Black people who once the but who no longer do so areviewed as having given up indeed, as fight, as having joinedthe white racists, and,

having become black racistsand advocates of 'BlackPower 1 would respondthat separatismf."3 With Charles Hamilton, in the seeming similarity ofthe suggestions contained SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Dell, Jr.

Page ---4- .

this paper to the views of somewhite segregationists whose

1 ultimate goal is to denyeducational opportunity to black people is an appearance that isunavoidable. I hope to show thoilh that there is a worldof difference between.

"separate but equal" schoolsestablished over the objection of blacks and maintained toinsure the inferior character of the education they provided,and institutions designed

,for and responsive to the veryspecial educational needs of black children who eitherby reason of parental choice

or legalbarriers; unable to attend desegregated schools.

I. Historical Precedent

For at least 175 years beforethe Supreme Court's

opinion in Brown, black parentssought good schools for

their children in theiface ofcontinuing white opposition.

Because of their minority statusand their lack of power,

blacks have utilized both separateand integrated schoolsin

seeking this goal. For 'example, the 'currentschool crisis

over desegregation ofBoston's public schools did notbegin in the mid-1960s with the passageof the state's"Radial

Imbalance Act," but in 1787, whenPrince Hall petitioned

the legislature to grant blackstheir own educational facilities 4 because they "now receive nobenefit from the free schools." SCHOOL DESIMEGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. rage_ 5

The Boston request wasrepeated throughout NewEngland children where most local schoolcommittees assigned black exclude them to separateinstitutions, when they did not 5 established from public schoolsaltogether. Tho:,...... ;11lools for blacks were generally sounder-funded and inadequate, admission that black parents inincreasing numbers sought generally unsuccessful, to white schools. These efforts were blacks from the white except in areas wherethe exclusion of

school's would deprive them of apublic educationaltogether. ordered admitted t In some cases ofthis character, blacks were existed, however, the to white schools. Where black schools result in the famous great weight ofauthority followed the

Roberts v. City of Bostoncase,6 in which the state court separate upheld the schoolcorimittee's decision to operate instances did courtsgrant schools for blacks. In only a few white requests of blackparents to admittheir children to 7 prefaced ont=theabsence of schools. These decisions were for black children. state laws requiringseparate schools children residingin They usually involvedonly a few black Even thesedecisions a predominan',Ilywhite school system. "separate but equal" were wiped outby the supreme Court's 8 doctrine in Plessy v.Ferqw:on. representatives For a half century',blacks and their legal to the "equal"part sought without such successto cave moaning

6

.. 11 SCHOOL DESI:GREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 6

of the Pless\. standard. This experience led to the conclusion

that black children; with limitedexceptions, would not receive

an education equal tothat provided whites un'-..!ss theyattended

the same schools. This conc1.1.1sion, fcllcuedby Herculean

efforts and propitious politicalcircumstances, resulted in the

Brown decision. The removal of legal protectionof racial discriMination spurred blacks to efforts thathave resulted in

major educational gains.

But despite the progress,the twentiethanniversary of

Brown finds a substantialpercentage of blackchildrenstill

attending predominantly blackschools and a large, if unascertainable, number of blackchildren whose enrollmentin

integrated schools is not provingof educational benefit.

More progress can andshould be made in desegregatingpublic

school systems in the Northand South. But the continuing

migration of whites from thecities to the suburbs while

blacks immigrate from the countryto the city indicatesthat

the number of predominantlyblack urban school systemswill

continue to grow. Federal courts, in the faceof rising

public and political opposition,have continued to give very

strong support to minoritylitigants in school cases. But

there is growing concern thatthe outer limits ofjudicial

authority to order schooldesegregation involving long-distance transportation have been reached. SCHOOL 1)::SEGHEGATION Derrick A. Dell, Jr. ----Pagc-7----7----

Justice Powell has already expressedthe view that long-

distance busing is not required bythe Constitution and serves'

to disrupt public educationby ignoring the practical and

educational benefits achieved whenchildren attend community

schools near home. In terms that seem toforeshadow a closer

review of desegregation plansinvolving busing, JusticePowell

wrote in the recent Denverschool case: "In the commendable

national concern for alleviatingpublic school desegregation,

courts may have overlooked-the fact.that the rights and \, interests of children affectedby desegregation programsalso

arc entitled toconsideration."9 harder A further indicationthat the courts are taking a

look at urban desegregationplans involving majortransportation

components are three decisionsfrom Tennessee cities,each of \ which obtained judicial approvalof plans that leftsubstantial

percentages of black childrenin heavily black schools. The 10 Supreme Court has refused toreview any of the three cases'. term has It is fair to add thatthe Court during the current

also refused to review lowercourt decisions thatsupported school school desegregation plansinvolving busing and other 11 desegregation measures. Civil rights groups areplacing their hope forcontinued

school de:;cyr6gation progres s,in the urban areas on aseries llosIn of "metropol i tan" eases nowpending in Detroit, Atlanta, seek court and Indianapolis. The plaintIffs in these cases SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 8

orders requiring urban .and suburban scb-)ol districts to merge to facilitate desegregation on a metropolitan basis. The first of these efforts failed when an equally divided Supreme Court affirmed a lower court order that Richmond, Virginia was not required to consolidate its school syste71 with that of two neighboring counties, despite an impressive district court 12 opinion that reached a contrary decision.

As this is written, civil rights advocates are anxiously

awaiting an expected decision by the Supreme Court in the

Detroit school case, where lower courts have approved orders

that would require 53 school districts to join, in Detroit's 13 school desegregation plan. In view of the .-oser scrutiny

the Supreme Court has been giving desegregation plans involving

long distance busing, and considering that Justice Powell,

a critic of such plans, did not participatein tl.r! 4-to-4

Richmonc"; school vote, the chances for a ruling favoring

metropolitan desegregation in Detroit arc not good. And

even if the Court does affirm the lower courtorders, each

of the 53 suburban school districts is expected to oppose

any plan that is filed. Such opposition guarantees that

the Detroit school litigation, already four years old,will

get ,Auch older before any meaningful desegregation takes

place. But Ow growth of blach politica] power in Detroit

indicate!;_that thc communtty_conLrol many _of Dctroit'4; black_ SCHOOL DESEGRLOATION Derrick A. Bel 4, Jr.

14 leaders have sought sii.ce the rid-1960s, maybecome a reality.

ThUs, by maintaining flexibility in the meansby which black

children's educations areimproved, Detroit may gainits primary

goal no matter h the Supreme Court resolvesthe metropolitan

suit.

II. Parental Priorities

In/view of the serious obstaclesto further school is desegrogatin,particularly in large urban areas, what

the source f the mandate under whichcivil rights groups

haveconti4eclto push for schoolintegration? Obviously,

no public opinion pollof black parental interestsis

feasible,'and Iwould, not argue that civil rights leaders

are obligated tobase their policies on the responsesof

this or that percentage of theblack population on anygiven

issue. Moreover, there is no doubtthat a large percentage

of blacks, particularlythose in'smaller urban or rural

communities, favor schooldcsegregati.on as the best hopefor

obtaining quality schools fortheir children.

And for good reason. Two decades ofdesegregation

progress have notended the society'sprediliction to favor

schools where whites attend: The advantages of inter-action

for both black and whitechildren arc great. And even with SCHOOL DESEGMC;ATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr.

its .implicit racial insult, and theeducational short-changing the that black children oftenreceive in integrated settings, concept of integratedschools is attractive and inkeeping

with the nation's ideals.

But ideals will not alterthe fact that blackchildren

need quality schools now, and agrowing percentage of their

number reside in urban schooldistricts where the chances doubles for meaningfuldesegregrition before the Brown decision

its age are increasinglybleak. These realities justify at

least serious consideration ofalternative means of securing

Brown's promise of "equaleducatiOnal opportunity." In fact

this has not happefied, andthose outside the "innercircle" for even of civil rights leadershave been severely attacked

voicing4-th suggestion. I suggest that thefailure to examine policiesdesigned

to obtain the hostpossible_schooling, whetherintegrated

or separate,does not conform withthe priorities of.black

parents.

Recently, CongressmanAndrew Young, a highlyrespected child had been civil rights leader,reported that his young

assigned to a desegregatedschool with ill-trainedteachers There and a hign percentageof lower-class whitechildren. (donor. to Young's was a predominantlyblack school located SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr.

home, attended by a large percentage ofmiddle-class black children. The school had black leadership and was

involved in a number of impressive educational-programs.

Young confessed that the situation posed aserious dilemma

for him, but that (when I found that mybelief in integration

was posing a harm tothe educational future of my child, I decided that my child's education was more important than my

devotion to integration." YOung's decision to withdraw his

child from the integrated school and placeher in the predominantly black school closer to his home is adecision,

I suggest, that, placed in a similarsituation, the vast

majorityof black parents would follow. The' fact is that following the Brown decision, virtually

all blacks saw adesegregated education as the best hope for

their children. But the long-delayed implementationof the decision, the continuing hostility of thesociety to its

implementation, and the less-than-impressiveachievement

statistics attributed to black studentsin desegregated

settings, all have resulted in a restructuringof the

pareatal priorities to read somethinglike: "I would like

an integrated education for mychild if such is possible

without serious risk to his physical safetyand his

educational potential."

It is true as civil rights leadersmaintain that

Athey have little difficulty findingiplaintiffsfor school 12 SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 12 integration suits, but what they do notadd is that parents concerned about their children'seducation are given no alternatives to integration. This is not misrepresentation on the part of civilrigh.::1, organizations that _on exists. they represent. For them, no alternative toi

III. Educational Expertise

It may never be known howmuch the social science testimony'enneerning the adverse. effects ofSegregation on

black children contributed tothe Court's decision to

invalidate the "separate but equal"standard as it applie

to public schools. It is certain though thatthe refusal

of civil rights groups toconsider alternatives toschool desegregation cannot bd based onresearch data provingthat

desegregation is a clear, educationalbenefit for black

children. Efforts to ascertain benefit have been made,. 4, As one writerfound after surveying the literature:

Social scientists have forwarded avariety of theories to exp34nwhy racially balanced schools should aid or retardlearning. Each __has different implications. Most focus on school resources arguing thatpredominantly white schools are betterendowed with some reource or another,and that equal educational opportunity would require-giving minority pupils equal access tothese superior resources. 13 SCHOOL DESEGUGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Par 13

These may include pupil- teacher ratio,experienced teachers and diversified facilities(the conveh- tional measure), or it may include the presence of advantaged children who'teach/theirless advantaged peers' (the 'peer grouplearning' theory), or higher expectations and oettermorale 15 among teachers in whiteschools.

But/ available social scienceresearch fails even to

show a relationship betweenconventional resources and achievement, and efforts to ascertaineither.a positive or

negative influence of desegregationhave led to inconsistent

conclusions, or none at all. Thus, Ron Edmonds isjustified

in summarizing the researchliterature since 1954 asfollows:

"Under court-ordered integration) ,someblack pupils do better,

some Black. pupils do-about the same, and someBlack pupils do

worse. Therefore, court-ordereddesegregation, in and of

itself,. is an insufficient andsometimes inappropriate response

to the present inequity thatcharacterizes public instruction "16 for Black children.

iut it may be argued that social sciencestudiesar'e

an inappropriate measurein determining theeducational

effectiveness of desegregation for blackchildren. Certainly,

existinj studies have reached wildlyvarying conclusions.

In addition,- research s:udiesusually define educational _

attainment by ability or intelligence. These provide, uncertain

14 SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 14

measures which vary overtime for an individual, andfor that tests whole groups of children. It is far from certain

measure what schoolsshould do, or that thequestions they

)41 ask are not soculturally-related as to makethem manifestly

unfair for all but uppermiddle-class whites. Moreover, we and that know t at school childrendo not live in a vacuum,

test sd res are likelyinfluenced by parentalachievements,

class status, health, aswell as school quality. Finally,

surveys andstudies of integrationefforts are difficult comparison of to compare because ofthe absence of adequate

control groups, thedifferent statisticalprocedures followed social outlook by the investigators, and,all tco often, the

and pre-formed.conc'.usionJpfthe investigator. Integration advocates arenot discCUraged by the

inconclusiveness of integrationstudies. They simply suggest the conflicting that desegregationrequirements not be based on

findings of social sciencestudies. They add that the for past Constitution requiresdesegregation as a remedy educational wrongful segregation,whether or not it has any

value. It is true that a large measureof contemporaryschool black kids desegregation strategy isbased on the hope that the whites go. will get what white kidsget,-if they go where is not the Presence As Dr. Kenneth Clarkhas concluded: "It

15 SCHOOL DLSEL:WCATION Derrick A. 13e11, Jr. Page 15

of the white child per sethat leads to higherachievement for the Negro child who associateswith him in class; it is the quality of the educationprovided because the white child is therethat makes the difference. . . ."17 These are wise words, and anappropriate basis for

school policy decisions inthose instances wheredesegregation

is a reasonable possibility, orwhere no effective alternative in to integrated schooling ispossible. But the policy-makers

civil rights groups recognize noexceptions. For them, there school. can be no effectiveeducation in a racially-isolated

Today, as in 1954, integrationis the only possibility. far better The policy may well servethe virtue of consistency

than it does the immediateeducational needs of blackchildren. After all, there are twopoints that can be madeabout

the available data onintegrated education. The first,/

frequently made by civil rights groups,is that school,

integration will not adverselyeffect the educationalachieve- ignored ment potential of whitechildren. The second, often

by these spokesmen, is thatbla5ik schools are notinicirior \.! simply because they areblack. Rather, most are inferior j becausetheyhavebeenseriousily crippledby generations-of Kenneth Clark has not just enforcedsegregation, but by what pattdrn of found is the significantcorrelation between a

deprivation in ghetto schoolsand a pattern of aavahtaoe 18 in white urban and suburbanqchools. 16 SCHOOL DESEGRar.TION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 16

There are, as black educators from KennethHaskins to the Black Muslims have shown, inherent,educational advantages in black schools, particularly for poor,ghetto blacks. To cite but one example, blackfirst-graders from ghetto backgrounds with little prior contactwith standard

English-are-II-a-less-disadvantaged in schools-insi-sting-that-

theyiMmediately learn to read standard Englishthan are

children fiom Chinese-speaking homes whomthe Supreme Court

recently found areentitled to bi-lingual or some other

special instruction designed to overcometheir English 19 language deficiency. Programs from Ravenswood Cityschools it California to the Urban League's StreetAcademy program

in New York have shown the educationalefficacy of modeling schools in accordance with the needs ofthe students they

serve.

Of course, sodotally-induced educationalproblems can T,45' be overcome in integrated settings,but as Kenneth Haskins

has pointed out, integrated schools consume aninordinate

amount of energy insuring andreassuring whites that the

presence of blacks intheir schools will not lower school 20 quality. Thus, programs, Curriculum, -and- _personnel arc

selected with the interests and needsof white rather than

black 'students given priority. Mere the interests and

needs diverge, and resources are inadequateto servo both,

black children will likely suffer. 17 SCHOOL Dr:SEGHEGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 17

In black schools,particularly where parents have learned the value of and beengiven the opportunity to participalp in school policy making,full attention can be given to the often speci:z1.:Interest. and educational needs of black children. Special school committeemeetings are-not-required- bef ore pictures -from -Ebony_ can_be_ posted or black dollsadded to the kindergarten toychest. The learning-potential in suchstructures is obvious

to educators, if not tocivil rights leaders withtheir

eyes fixed ,onintegration. But as Dr. MarioFantini

suggests, effective blackschools may further, not retard,

the integration goal. He suggests: Desegregation refers to thephysical mixing of black and white students;integration refers to humans conneetirig,as equals. Agreeing on the goal of integration, onecould argue that it is necessary for black andother minority groups to have a sense Of cohesionand identity. This car in part be achievedthrough the control oftheir own institutions. Once blacks attain a st, us of potency, they willbe in a better pos ion to connect up with whitesociety as equals' rather than as "junior" members. Therefore, such par- ticipatoiy-efforts--as-decentlalizati-cm-tmd- community control can beviewed as necessary steps toward a furtherstage ofintegration.21

18 SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 18

IV. Legal Strategies

/While it is unlikely that legal scholars will ever

ac ee on a statement of what the Browndecision actually

//held, it is certainly clear that the case does not stand

/ for the proposition that every black child is entitled

either to a seat in an integrated classroom, or to attend

a desegregated school. This question,was removed from the

area of legitimate debate by the lastparagraph of the 1954

Brown decision, which postponed until thefollowing year

the question of relief for the class whoseConstitutional

rights the Court had found were violated by segregated

schools. Any lingering doubt on the subject wasremoved

when, in the second Brown case, the Court rejectedNAACP

pleas that the schools be ordered to desegregateimr-edi-

ately, and returned the cases to the generallyhostile

district courts with instructions that desegregationshoula 22 proceed with "all deliberate speed."

Even when the Court finally set specificguidelines

for completion of the school desegregation processsixteen

years after its "all deliberatespeed" standard, those

guidelines, set forth in Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenberq 23 Board of rdueation, recognized that segregated housing

patterns characterizod metropolitan arras,and statod,

"In some circumstances certain schools may remainall or 19 SCHOOL DESMnEGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 19

Such "one-race" schools areto largely of one race. . . ."

receive the closest scrutinyby the district court toinsure

that reasonable means are notavailable by which they maybe "that the existence desegregated. But the Court made clear of some small number of one-race,or virtually one-race

schools within a district isnot in and of itselfthe mark by law." In of a system whichstill practices segregation other portions of the Swannopinion, the Court made clear

that while bus transportation was apermissable means of that "An overcoming neighborhoodsegregation, it warned

objection to transportation ofstudents may have validity

when the time or distance oftravel is so great as to

risk either the health ofthe children orsignificantly

impinge on the educationalprocess."24

This language and the indication inthe recent Tennessee adhere school cases discussed abovethat the Court intends to large to it seem to remove anychance that increasingly

numbers of urban blackchildren will experience adesegregated valid, whatever the education. Again, this conclusion seems Supreme Court decides inthe Detroit school case. Construing

the remedies available under'Brown as limited to integration

has thus limited its value towhat is likely aminority of required by the 'law. black children. Such a limitation is not

20 SCHOOL DrSEGM:GATION Derrick A. Dell, Jr. Page 20

Indeed, the legal leverage ofDrown should be more than adequate to enable black parentsto make/those changesin black schools that willpermit them to operate effectively of some civil for black students. Over the strong resistance

rights groups, local bl-.cksin a few areas havebegun that

process. In_Atlanta, Georgia, a group ofblack parents and

leaders determined last yearthat the educationalinterests

of black children wouldbest be served by notcontinuing

school litigation that hadachieved only a moderateamount In the of desegregation sinceits intitiation in1961. meantime, a massive whiteexodus had left theschool. system predomi- almost 70 percent black instudent population, but

t nantly white in policy-makingpositions. After lengthy parties negotiations, a settlement order wasagreed to by the for implemen7 and approved by thedistrict court that called than the tation of a desegregationplan less extensive by the plaintiffs were entitled tounder the standards set

Supreme Court in the Swann v.Charlotte- ?lecklenberq case. to fill In return, the-blackcommunity was given authority including the school a number ofadministrative positions compliance with a full superirtendent's job. In their view, brought integration order would havetaken several more years, integration about an all-black f;chool:;y:Acm, and a Pyrrhic blacks in top policy-making victory. Their hope is that more NI SCHOOL DrSrGRMATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 21

1 of educationtheir positions mightimprove the quality the present children receive, andperhaps even reduce

headlong flight ofwhites to the suburbs. number of well-educated In addition,Atlanta has a large live in black middle-class blacks who,like Andrew Young,

neighborhoods; they sendtheir children topred-Ortinantly good as any in black public schoolsthat they consider as lower-class whiteschools the city, and farsuperior to the order would with which they fear anysweeping desegregation black Atlantans,imple-. require theM.to mix. Thus, for many in Brown threatensto mentation of thelong-delayed promise efforts to obtainequal present a furtherbarrier to their

educational opportunity. represented by the . An appeal bydissident plaintiffs issues;this enabled NAACP got.boggeddown in procedural substantive issue of the court of appealsto avoid the for some alterna- whether blacks (or someof them) may opt when such planis deemed tive to completeschool integration quality schoolingfor their an effective meansof providing 25 certain to surfacein future children. The question is however, black parentsare litigation. In many systems, in the negotiations likely to make thebest deal they can and uncer- process ratherthan face thedelays, expense,

tainties involved infurther litigation. 22 SCHOOL DESEGREGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 22

to challenges of It is not certainhow courts will react in "Atlanta-type" school settlementplans. A district judge predom- the Fort Worth, Texas, caseapproved continuance of a located in a inantly black high schooland a middle school wanted black neighborhood on a findingthat the black parents "the self-concept of to maintain acommunity school in which opportunity to the blacks would be enhancedby giving them an they could do if show their pride intheir race and what other given an opportunity." Thejudge cited no cases or

authority, but stated: "Itis beyond mycomprehension to rights with presume thatthe blacks arebeing denied eoual rights are and they other races when theyknow what their _26 are gettingsomething they requested.- of Brown The obvious potentialfor: widespread evasion particularly in through the coercedadoption of such plans, approving plans that small communities, couldbe reduced by special educa- sanction racially-isolatedschools to further periods of time. tional programs -- butonly for limited for academic By requiring frequentreview and standards and parents accomplishment during theapproved period, courts "transitional plans" would could gain some assurancethat such to separate andunequal not become thefirst step in a return

schools. work in It would also resinporisible to do much more of Plef;sy v. developing the old "separatebut equ,t1" concept 23 SCHOOL DESFW:GATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 23

27 Ferguson, a doctrine that was repudiated(but not totally abandoned) in Brown, and which because it was nevermeaning-

fully enforced, may take on renewed valueas a standardof

equality in those areas where the remedy ofdesegregation

has proved infeasible under the Swannstandards. Justice Douglas suggested the need of such a revivalin

an order denying a stay in aNorthern California school case 28 a few years ago. Noting that racial isolation in the

schools is often the result of many factors,he suggested

that the Plessy doctrine might require a planunder which

white as well as black students use aninferior high school.

He deemed such a plan "an acceptablealternative to removing 29 the inequalities through an upgrading ofthe subnormal school."

Requiring a re-structuring of schoolfinancing systems

is certainly one component in a programdesigned to equalize

schools as to educational efficiency, the onlystandard that

has Meaning to most parents. The Supreme Court's refusalto

require equalization of school fundingformulas in San Antonio

Independent School. District v. Rodriquez, 93 St.1278 (1973) ,

reflects more the incomplete research andpresentation of this

litigation than'any inherent defect in thisidea. See 30 Serrano v. Priest. But to be beneficial for largeurban

areas, school fundinglitigation must not merely provide

the court with data showing the adverseeffects on educational

24 SCHOOL MSEGREGAT1ON Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 24

efficiency of inadequate funding,but must suggest standards % for remedial legislation thatdo not place the poorest educational systems (which areseldom the most poorly financed

ft systems in the state) in worse financial conditionthan they 31 are under currentfunding laws. In addition, litigation that does not encompass theproblem of disparate school- funding of an intra-districtcharacter rewards schoolofficials schools who traditionally haveskrimped on funding of ghetto for books to pay the highersalaries and honor the requests teachers and teaching materialscoming from more experienced who usually are found in the"better" schools serving pre-

dominantly white pupils.

As indicated in theprevious section, it is farless causes certain than it seemed in1954 that racial isolation

racially different outcomes,and that racialintegration will The concern in Brownwith yield raciallyidentical results.

but -- the associational consequencesof segregation remain, decision- these concerns have neverbeen crucial to judicial

making as the "all deliberatespeed" concept and limits on future decisions on busing show. Thus, it is unlikely that the Drown the validity of Atlanta-typeplans will continue must be assumption that appropriateblack pupil performance

preceded by black pupilsbeing mixed with whitepupils. SCHOOL DESEGI:EGATION Derrick A. Hell, Jr. Page 25

There is an indication of what courts maydc in the

ill-fated litigation to savethe Ocean Hill-Brownsville community school experiment after the NewYork school boaO

decided to abandoh it. Deeming the Ocean Hill plan an / educational experiment-that the stateshould be able to /try

to -improve school-effectiveness,the -court said:

But the State should not be putinto a consti- tutional straight-jacket,forbidding it from attempting other experiments. The alternative to segregation was some formof integration -- that was the clear alternative. There is no such obvious solution to theeducation problems of the large cities. The State should not be prevented from ending eneexperiment and trying others, if the action istaken in good faith, 32 without dj.scrimillatory intent orresult. - -

Judicial decisions are far morelikely to be based on

present circumstances than onpast precedent. This is par-

ticularly true in the politically-sensitivearea of school

desegregation, where schoolintegration remedies have cut

deeply into the reserve ofpublic confidence andrespect

required by the courts foreffective functioning.Most

courts do not want to abandonthe goals of Brown, butthey

need help in fashioningremedies for past racialdeprivation

that offer real promise withoutthe politically disruptive

26 SCHOOL DESEGRPT,ATION Derrick A. 13e11., Jr. Page 26

balancing and educationally-suspectplans that rely totally on

the races in each publicschool. This help regrettably is

not likely to cone fromthe national civil rights groups,the

only legal representatives nowbefore 1::he dburts with the

necessary technical andfinancial resources.

Thus, it is today impossible to carryout Ron Edmonds'

call for a redefinition of"integration so as to make it

more culturallydemocratic and thus moreeducationally 33 Edmonds sees such redefinition asulti- effective. . . ."

mately depending ondevelopingeffective:instruction for black majority black schools. I suggest: that a great many although parents share Edmonds'view. It will be interesting,

expensive in educational terms,to note how much moretime what mus:: pass before therwtional civil rights groups see

should be apparent to all. _... SCHOOL DESH=GATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 27

FOOTNOTES

*Professor of Law, HarvardUniversity.

1. 347 U.S. 483-(1954).

in Northcross v. Boardof Education, 2. Judge Feick, dissenting 466 F.2d 890, 898(6th Cir. 1972).

andsEducation: A Searchfor Legitimacy," 3. Hamilton, "Race 38 Marv. Ed. Rev.671 (1968).

Docunentary History ofthe Negro Peoplein 4. H. Aptheker, A the United States,f9-2-0 Titai:c1 19687",

120-121 (1961) . 5. L. Litwack, Northof Slavery, 113-117,

6. 59 Mass. 198 (1850) .

Directors, 24 Iowa 266(1868); People 7. Clark v. Board of 400 Board of Educationof Detroit, 18 Mich. ex rel. Workmen v. Tinnon, 26 Kan. 1(1881). (1969); Board ofEducation of Ottawa v.

8. 163 U.S. 537 (3896).

District No. 1, Denver,Colo., 413 U.S. 9. Keyes v. School 189, 247 (1973).

Board of Educationof Memphis CitySchools, 10. Northcrol-; v. S Ct (1974); Cir. 1973), cert.denied *, -- 484 F.2d 215 (6th Chattanooga 477 F.2d Mapp v. Board ofCommissioners of City of cert, denied 94 S.Ct. 445 (1974) ; 8.51 (6th Cir. 1973) , 482 F.2d 1044 (6thCir. Goss v. KnoxvilleBoard of Education, 1973), cert, denied94 S. Ct. 933(1974). 1061 Board of Danville v.Medley, 482 P.2d 11. See e.g., School (1974); Farah v. (4th Cir. 1973), cert.denied 94 S. Ct. 933 (10th Cir. 1973) ,cert. Unified'School Dif;trict., F.2d (1974); hrooLt; v.Carden, 473 .2d912 denied, 94 S. Ct. 723 Parent:; (GLh Cir. 1973), c(!rt.drrnied, f;uhnom., Concerned Cl . -5,J fl-11334 Assoc 1 at. Ion v"-: 28 SCBOOL DESEGRflGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 28

12. Bradley v. School Board of City of, Richmond., Va.,462 F.2d 1058 (4th Cir. 1972), aff'd by an equally dividedcourt, 412 U.S. 92 (1973). The Supreme Court has prevented the formation of ,new school districts where such action, is deemed asubterfuge to evade effectuation of desegregation orders.Wright v. Council of City of rmpori-a, 407 U.S. 451 (1972); UnitedStates v. Scotland Neck City Board of Education, 407 U.S. 484(1972).

13. Bradley v. Milliken, 484 F.2d 215 (6th Cir.1973), cert. granted, 94 S. Ct. 538 (1973).

14. See Grant, "Community Control vs. SchoolIntegration -- The Case of Detroit," No. 24, The Public interest 62 (Summer1971).

15. Pat Lines, "Race and Learning: A Perspective onth- Research," 11 Inequality In Education 26 (March 1972) .

16. Edmonds, "Judicial Assumptions onthe Value of Integrated Education for !23ac%s," Procings, Nation alPolicy Conference on Education for Blacks,140-144 (1972).

17. Clark, "Fifteen Years of DeliberateSpeed," Saturday Review, Dec. 20, 1969, at 59-61.

18. Clark, note 17, supra.

19. Lau v. Nichols, 94 S. Ct. 786 (1974).

20. Baskin:, Statement. Comparing Integrated and CornunitvControl Schools, Ilearincis, U.S. Senate Committee onEqual Educational Opportunity, 5373 -5874 (July 27, 1971).

2]. Pantini, "Participation,Decentralization, Community Control and Quality Education," 71 TheTeachers College Record 93, 95 (Columbia University, 1961) .

22. Brown v. Boardof Education, 349 U.S.294 (1955).

23. 402 U.S. 1(1971).

24. Td. at 30-31. 25. Calhoun v. Cook, 487 F.2d 680 (5th Cir.1973).

26. Flax v. Potts, Civ. Act. No. 4205 (N.D.Tex., Aug. 23, 1973). 29 SCIMOL DESEGr.EGATION Derrick A. Bell, Jr. Page 29

27. 163 U.S. 537 (1896). Cal.), injunction 28. Gomperts v. Chase,329 F. Supp. 1142 (N.D. denied pending ,.ppeal ,404 U.S. 1237 (1971).

29. Id. at 1239. Rptr. 601 (1971). 30. 5 Cal. 3d 583 487 P.2d 1241, 96 Cal. Goldstein, "InterdistrictInequalities in 31. See, e.g. Priest School FiTianDng: ACritical Ana2ysis of Serrano v. (1972); Dimond, and Its Progeny,"320 U. Pa. L. Rev. 504 of Sorts for Ethics, NotNecessarily " Serrano: A Victory Social Action 133 for Education," 2Yale Rev. of Law and (1971) N.Y. 1968). 32. Oliver v. Donovan,293 F. Supp. 958 (E.D.

33. Edmonds, see supra,note 16. CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT OR OBSOLETESTRATEG?? IV. SCHOOL DESEGREGATION:

Derrick Bell

List of Participants:

Derrick Bell - Harvard Law School University of Maryland,College Mary Frances Berry -Faculty, History Department, Park

Jim Dyer - .Carnegie Corporation Harvard University Ron Edmonds - Center for Urban Studies, State of Michigan r. Eilsha D. Gray.- Department of Education, Atlanta University Barbara Jackson - School of Education, Committee on the District Ruby Martin - U. S. House of Representatives of Columbia Planning, and Social Walter McCann - Faculty, Programs in Administration, Policy,. Harvard University

Harvard University Bernice Miller - Center for Urban Studies, of Education Robert Mitchell - President, Wilmington Board University of Michigan Charles Moody - School of Education, College, New Jersey Betty Nyangoni Spectrum, Stockton State Administration, Atlanta University Margaret Simms - School of Business Educational Policy, HowardUniversity Kenneth Toilet - institute,for Study of

remarks by way of introductionand intent. Ron Edmonds: Let me make Just a few disciplines, wo%settings, The people in this room representa multitude of aeliberate. The one thing that backgrounds, and experiences,and that is quite opposition to Derrick's is not in the room isunambiguous, straightforward

do not expect that allof us fully subscribe, position. That is, obviously, I position that Derrick is either in every particular, orin general, to the

in a critique ofDerrick's position, but putting forward. But our interest was 31 discussion as a proper within some general acceptanceof the legitimacy of the -est in the subjectis: What discussion.Then, beyond that, our further Derrick raises? What are the implica- are the implicationsof the question that

work settings ' tions of the questions he raisesfor each of the disciplines or have to stay within or experiences that yourepresent?That is to say, we don't confines of academia, the confines of the law, wedon't have to stay within the Derrick set forward. And and we don't have to staywithin the parameters that questions that Derrickraised I am very much interestedin the implications of the perspectives that you in the context of the separatekinds of experiences and this at the end, but it'sin some represent. Finally, and I'm going to repeat much interested that youshould, respects the most importantpart, we're also very again at the end --I want to know at some point, andif you don't I'll ask you of the issues, what is in your judgment the properwork to be done in pursuit Derrick's paper questions, perspectives, andpossibilities that are raised by I think that the group ismanageable enough and his discussion? Having said that, might be, unless it turns out, so that I'm notgoing to be as organized as we value in that. for reasons of pursuing someparticular question, there is some

by re-raising the question.that Ruby Martin Derrick: I'd like to start it all up

posed early in thediscussion. How did you raise it, Ruby? first one beilg, how do webegin Ruby Martin: In sort of twodifferent concepts: alternatives to forced to legitimize our concernsthat there are some viable I'm particularly integration and that itisn't an all-or-nothingproposition. the forefront of the concerned that we not destroythe people who have beenin

think they are needed for some veryspecific integration movement, because I

pluralistic society. That educationalready kinds of roles. I think we are in a

the responsibility to acceptyoungsters where reflects. And some of us have -with_them_where they are andwhere they're likely to --they-are-and-try -to-deal illegitimately the black racist,separatist, or some- remain. But we still are rid of those notions. thing or other, and there oughtto be a way that we can get trying to develop a laundrylist of The other thingI was concerned about was they are, whetherthey're the issues that affect blackyoungsters, no matter where

school, because I think in a desegregated school,integrated school, or segregated down the line and some of us those issues are going tohave to be dealt with

have the responsibility to doit. the responsibility tore-examine The-other thing I said was that somebody has certain point when we were the factual situation now asopposed to 1954 u6 to a because the situation in the hot throes of pursuitof school desegregation, kinds of youngsters in has changed radically. We're dealing with different whole bit. terms of class, economics,the percentages, and the We've got to find some other waysto Barbara Jackson: Can I try out an idea? institutions that can legitimize, as Ruby suggests. I think universities are would push is that we not do that through research. One of the things that I think we Just go cL7wn keep reacting to the Jenckses orthe Jensens, et al. I */ We will never become a narrow path thatstarted out with DredScott's decision. think all the human beings if we start on thepremise that we're property. I of that same train labels that were added to usafter that first one are all out

disadvantaged and culturally thisand that. of thinking. We've been deprived and over into that sort oflegit- fou continue to try to live upto and make yourself

terribly fruitless path andmaybe was imate person. It seems to me that's a useless for any of originally, but now to keepgoing down that way is totally

maintain it started out as"niggers us who want tofind some new answers. I be a human being," and now wemust 4S a piece ofproperty" and "you'll never ideas of anthropologistCharles start on a totallydifferent tack, based on the the "culturally deprived;" arenot accu- Valentine. The "culturally different," with. But it was Tatelabels of what black folksin slavery days had to deal

* Footnote Dred Scott decision It really a du31socialization-culturalization process that was simultaneous. was not either/or.All of us that grew up, no matterwhere, grew up both within a black culture of somekind and a white majority culture. There was a difference

in degree and maybe quality of how youdealt with those two. But if we think quite back into all the kinds of experiences wehad, the two worlds were really

For some of us, the overlap separate. The overlap is where the difference came.

became so comfortable that we knew which role toplay appropriately in each

all black folks, you act one - culture. When you go to the fraternity party with If you're going to be way and you're verycomfortable and you may choose that. know, in HEW, and you've got to deal withthat world of people and what not, you

how to do that. I maintain that a lot of theblack kids that were taken into

colleges in the late '60's, who had not beenacculturated sufficiently in the

out, white majority culture, only knew one responseto that, which was hitting

strategies that kids the confrontation thing. They hadn't learned a variety of

growing up in middle-class-oriented,college-oriented black families taught So that when them, like you teach all culture, notexplicitly but implicitly. kinds of bunches of them came, they reallydidn't know how to deal with all the

in things they were faced with becausethey hadn't been given enough practice positives doing it. We need to take a look at thedual cultUralization and the

tiot the that the kids in the ghetto dolearn and how they have already learned,

labels haven't been put on it. Go see Claudine. A whole lot of it is really

One illustration had one of the betterdone movies in terms of social message. don't know math. So to do with the whole thingabout math -- that black kids adding in his head the kid is shooting craps withthe garbage man, and he is other; adding, how much he's making and how muchthe bet is, this, that, and the The garbage man says to him subtracting, and multiplying all atthe same time. it to -when-they getoff-thei-r-knees-i"Howmuch-da-l-owe-youP-And-the-k-i-d-gtves teacher in school said youdidn't him like that.And the garbage man says,"The 34 -5-

look at what kids bring outof their black know no math."We have neglected to It's not easy, but culture that can be used to changethe way they're taught. premise, that if kids come it seems to me that that starts on avery different deficit, that they'redisadvantaged, to school and everybodythere says they have a can't really figure out any wayto then they are, therefore, inferior. And I

teach them because theycan't talk.

what my particular interestand role is as Jim Dyer: I would like to indicate for the support of a great the representative of thefoundation that is responsible forced to respond to; such as deal of the work which Ithink we now have been I was not responsible Jencks' work. ! might add,justparenthetically, that got there. But I've for the position that was taken. That took place before I It's interesting to notethe been trying to deal with thefallout of it since. wasn't a conscious strategyand it way in which a kindof strategy, although it with the publication didn't flow from or to oneparticular institution, began Coleman in 1966. Partly in of the U.S. Office ofEducation Report by James in cooperation with thisinstitution response to that,there was a seminar held

number of major researchefforts, some of in early '67. And from that grew a all having to them funded by private sources, someof them by public sources, produced by the Coleman Report do with the questions raisedby the data that was Now it's not my proposalthat Carnegie Cor- and the conclusions ofthat report. reformulation or re-analysis poration or anyone else supportin perpetuity a black

think it might be appropriatefor the Corporation to of that same data. But I would call the developmentof be involved in a major wayin supporting what 1

those conclusions thatreflect the a strategy that atleast partly impinges on So part of my interest interests of others who havebeen well described by Ron. raised by Derrick maybecome here today is in seeing howthe questions that are the-Carnegle part of a researchStrategy-Wilk:Pr-can-be supported-by to the NAACP tohelp in the Detroit case. of New fork.We currently have a grant 35

1 816.,

that recommendation. I think I was pleased to supportthat grant and to make Amk there are other partsof that II, it's a good grant.ButI would like to think that

would also be able to take anin-formed view of and be able - same strategy which we

to help. initial question, Derrick. Betty Nyangoni: I'd like to try to respond to your fact, would maintain the I'm not sure that all of thecivil rights leaders, in dialogue and just position that integration is theend. Maybe we should start a work for together. see on what grounds we can agreeand-what kinds of issues we can perhaps we expressed it I'm not quite sure that we'll comeout as separate as

this morning.

list is crucial. We,have not really Charles Moody: I think that Ruby's laundry regardless of the kind of paid enough attention to thoseissues that are vital'', himself. For one thing, environment in which the studentattending school finds That's crucial in what.? we have to look atthe whole notion of studentrights. 111 We have to look at teachersand ever kind of situation astudent may be in. look at union contracts orassociation their attitude toward stUdents,because as I that has any hayen't seen, in any of myexperience, any contract contracts, I the benefit ofkids. And clause or anything in therethat speaks directly to if you have happy teachers, I say that being well awareof that old notion that automatically has somecorrelation well paid teachers orwhatever, then that getting a dialogue with the benefit to kids. think we ought to follow up on to see what areas between the civil rightsleaders and spokesmen and attorneys

negotiations. In other words, what we all agree on, toavoid being lost in the We do have some is it that we all want to moveforward on for black students/. think it Is critical that are crucial tous. I common goals and somecommon tasks rather than where we'redifferent. that we approach it fromthat point of view,

Let's loo- k at t4lere we'real-Tke;- record that Jack Greenbergand those people have Ruby Martin: Let me say for the 36 still consider myself acivil not razzed me out of the civilrights community. I

I have arrived at the positionwhere I think there 111 rights person. It's just that They have a are three or fourdifferent ways to deal with the sameproblem. work If dialogue will identifythose roles and help us role,land I have a role. think that those of us who are it out, I'm all for that. At this point, I boys concerned about some other issuesdon't have our stuff together, as the

and where we want to go and how weplan say. We need to figure out what it is they have the precedent,they to get there. Right now,-they have all the chips, If have the cases, you know, and theyhave one step laid outafter the other. suppose the next step you lose in Atlanta,the next step is a metro suit,and I

But those of us - -mime inparticular -- is a state-wide suit. I mean,I don't know. that is who deal with a school district thatis ninety-seven per cent black, we're grappling with the likely to be that way for the next twenty years --

because I haven't identified then all. issues. I can't begin to deal with them also non-negotiable, and And Ithink Chuck is right. Some of our issues are That's the kind of posture they're not for trade-off purposes. They're real.

we are going to have to assumein order to get on with it.

to answer those questions,right Ron Edmonds: I would like to press some of you

don't think it takes much for us to agreethat we ought to look here, now. I for dialogue exist. for points of agreement and weought to see where the openings

But Idon't want to leave that asjust an abstract inquiry. footnotes that qualifies as itshould Derrick Bell: I had some material in the qualifying it, that not all civilrights leaders be qualified. I guess Betty was The Atlanta situation is believe in integration and that'sabsolutely true. is illustrative of that. certainly illustrative of thatand our own experience

out of a lengthy five,six year effort to I think the Detroit suit really grew befell get community control oftlidWfool,-amd-a tot of-poittl-cat-shenanigans overall school desegregation that effort, and somebody Inthe midst filed this 37 -8-

within Detroit. The rumor suit which initially was aschool desegregation suit suggested bringing in these has it that some of theopposition, the school board, "feah, yeah, that's a goodidea." suburban communities.Then the plaintiff said, side, it's not When you have to take your strategydirections from the other number of leaders,particularly very good. But it's true that there are any integration. closer to the grass roots section,who are not all or nothing on control most of the money, It is also fair to say thatthe people who really the suits. And some of the NAACP and the LegalDefense Fund, were in most of pretty well committedto the spinoffs, like the Lawand Education Center, are don't want to hearanything else, the integration ideal. Not only that, but they I hope someone willbe able to and I am not sure, based on myexperience (and be very productive, tell me I'm wrong), that sittingdown with them is going to political clout, that mightbe dif- in terms of reason. Now, if you have some

together."The ClarenceMitchells ferent. "Sit down with us and let us reason

of the world are not going tochange. if you went to them withsomething Barbara Jackson: Would it be any different and a majority specific like the Atlanta pact?Here's a black superintendent different that we need tolook and black board. The roles are so new and so fifty-odd majority blackpopulation see what they'redoing and how these other in other words, don'trefute what they've city school systems aregoing to do. whole other been doing, don't try to argue onthat basis, but start out on -a deficit model. Not try to tack, like I would like todo with the whole culture don't talk about integration. react back to theJencks thing, not try to say, Here are some ideas onhow to We've got some whole newdifferent situations. majority black board. What do deal with the majorityblack school system, the

you do?

* Footnote Atlanta pact -9-

international School Boards'convention, some single When I was at Houston's What do you black board members talked to the restof the black board members. 4111 white system with everybodyelse? do when you're the onlyblack board member in a with the weakest white person Among other things, theysaid, "Make a coalition In other words, don't tryto team on the board sothey goof up themselves." having that the black schoolboard members were up. it was that kind of a dialogue civil rights with each other, sharing somestrategies. Maybe they,,being the on. There were at leaders, are not as cognizantof the changes that have gone that school board con- least two or three hundredblack school board members at

get a staff person,paid by the National vention. That black caucus managed to realrpoiitical clout. School Boards, to help themdo their work. Now that's some probably didn't have any That's a whole different scenethan in 154 when we

school board members elected,right? conversation in a contextbefore it goes much Ron Edmonds: I want to put this "integration" as farther, because we're using phraseslike "we" and "they" and something that isn't inthe though that were thesubstantive alternative to

going on. My perception of theperspective room. I don't think that's what's .11,04 make reference to integration, of this group is that mostpeople here, when they instrument of social equity: That ought are talking aboutits efficacy as an whether or not any orall black people to be kept separatefrom the question of This exchange Is notintended are entitled to accessto integratedcircumstances.

It is not intended torecommend; it is surely to suggest aseparatist position. ti separatist position. not intended to coerce orcajole or otherwise espouse a words like "integration"and "majority For our purposes here,the context in wnich efficacious posture to black" are used, is a contextwhich reflects the most the public and socialservices. have when the purpose isimproving the delivery of

I think that's the context now. morning that I'm sort of aminority here Robert Mitchell: Ron indicated this 39 as a board member. the establishment. Ron Edmonds: (ou're the minority because you're

notice you cleared that upfor the tape. Let me Robert jitchell: Right. I l'rry.t a particular point as aboard justgiyoUa little bit ofinformation.

member and as an individual. My school district isin Wilmington, Delaware, 82 percent brack. whose population is 45 percentblack. My school district is and it are in the midst of adesegregation suit. The case has been argued 'decision momentarily. is before the U.S. District Court now. We are expecting a together a number ofplaintiffs This is a metro suit. ACLU and the NAACP put support that 'suit for a suit against the state. My board chose two years ago to

believe the plaintiffs have$1,000. and to join that suit. In that suit, I added $10,000 publicly When my school district movedinto it, my school dirict We have taken a positionand to that suit, and wehave paid $50,000 so far. think we will probably hired attorneys and fought a verystrenuous suit, and I desegregation joining the suit. I am not for a total win. I was not for my board

realize that in our district wehave some very particular school district. I But Icame here to problems because of social economics aswell as racially. could help me in dealing give my position and also to seewhat I can learn that than likely with this as we come down tothe wire. Our school district will more this point, be asked to submit a plan if we arevictorious in the suit, and at

Four months ago,I assumed the on this level, wewill probably be victorious. indicated this morning, two yearsago position of president of theboard. As I NAACP of the president of the board, who wasblack and former president of the both Wilmington for four years, and oursuperintendent, Dr. O. Jackson, were

district. At that time I raised very strong advocatesof a desegregation school with both of them andthe rest Issue with them, and I argued very strenuously

also indicated to my board,whichhadthreeminoritio:4-11hei------of the board. I board), that my chilcen were were minorities there,three white people on our

40 _ structure, going v.) a predominantly white schooldistrict with the white power

ed an adequate academiceducation, but that and they were getting what I consid A school district I would not be fighting fordesegrega ion. I would support that

kinds of social input, I as it was, and if I felt that they should have other would foster that through our own familysocial life. But what kind orthings

that I've been workingtoward can we do? I'd just like to indicate something could use some reaction to in the four months that I've beenpresident, and I

it and maybe some direction. action developing what I call an affirmative I have taken the position of sector. plan with the city government, theteachers' union, and the business Kot.for the I've also taken the position that mymain role as a board memberris, community, direct education of the children, but torespond to the adult* of my because they are the parents of the children, aswell as the business sector, board to hire some chie: the ones who, in effect; eitherelect or appoint a school would benefit the school educators to implement aneducational program that

And I've taken the positionwith which students and thus benefit thecommunity. 0 responding directly4tothe you may disagree. I felt that by the school system

tiley'.ve I mean the children, needs-of the'community, and when I say community out except- miefibidut-4 the parents in-many cases;and they have-dealt- -the parents and other fed- Fmtb6-Se programs with the federal government,such as in Title I of parents be in the eral programs, which haveindicated a certain majority

particularly, a lot of the . . . decision making bodies. I felt that in doing so, blacks have been left outof as was indicatedthis morning, the middless I also feel that giving direction to the educationalsystem in the urban areas. the eduCators looktoward in a minority school district,such as Wilmington, that educational backgrounds -- where the children have comefrom -- poor families, poor of directions and they tried to develop aneducational program for those types suburban districts, theylook where rather than, as I feel, in a lot of our white needs and what they expect the child has to go. They look at what the community

those children to deal withwhen they have finishedtheir educational experience that kind and tried to develop an educationalexperience that would best support

said earlier, I've been pursuing anaffirmative action plan, of direction. As I black community. The civil / which has gotta) me into alot of troible in my own \ for ri4hts activists feel that it is unne essarybecause we should bejighting

in Newcastle County pure integration,whiCh would mean thaour school districts control- would become 20 percent black and80percentwhite. The community school

selling out the black community. SO I'm in the middle, and 1 1 rs think that I'm D feel that in order for theschools to succeed, he battle's just beginning. I 'Ica] structure and with thebusiness we need to Identify moreclosely with the p between us, and I've said, areas.And I've gone to them and set up meet, ,gs Jobs for the students "I don't want any money. WhatI want is a guarantee of is surrounded by who are graduating from myschools." Wilmineon, Delaware, business areas, are hiring white suburban areas and theindustry in our area, the the young people people from the suburban districtsand are basically ignoring

And -I've said, "fou'vebecome who are graduating from theWilmington schools. and thus they hav irresponsive to the city and thecity has lost confidence,"

they've identified-that- 'ost an interest in their ownstudents when-tn fact,- college, their students are not going tocollege As long as a child is going to they're doing$ and know the parents are right therebehind them and know what lid is not what they'rc trying toaccomplish. But once they identify that a They're not sure going to college, they're not surewhere he's going to go. lose the kind of what kind of job he'sgoing to get.And in many cases, they still needs. So I've Interest and the kind offostering support that the child for, that asked that they identify jobsthat they hire Sigh school graduates In the Wilmington they give us the requirementsfor those jobs, and that we in our schools to gear ourstudents school system willtr.$, to develop programs 42 -13-

toward meeting these jobneeds.

Ruby Martin: That's disgraceful! estaflish some kind ofrelation- I am trying to Robert Mitchell: When I say this, I'm trying to identifyjob ship which is not in our districtand our city now. into'these industriesand areas, meaningful Job areas, sothat people can move feel that we can develop some move up into thesecompanies.And in so doing, I how they can confidence in the parents as to wheretheir children can go and into the students, achieve if they are not doing tocollege and can also instill district -- a big business areas that they can getjobs in. For instance, in our five students a year area -- for some reason orother, we put out'only about with all the who can qualify assecretaries. To me that doesn't make sense, And for some reason, our secretarial Jobs that are offeredin our district. But I'm trying to schools are hot meeting thekinds of needs that arethere. these needs. I don't develop an affirmative action programthat can meet some of

do need come feedback, and I do need some reaction mind your disagreeing, but I

to it. either/or don't think your affirmativeaction program has to be an Chuck Moody: I that this may lead to isthat you kind of thing. I think one of the pitfalls

i hear you coming from twoplaces, one as want to really courtthe business.

fou want to get scorekind of a rela- an educator, but moreso as a politician. he good and is good, tionship with the business andpolitical arena which may not look at theneeds but you're saying that inorder to do that, you'd have to Those ought to be in some waymarried. fou of, or the input of the students. work with whateverthe have to get the input of thestudents as well as try to disturbs me is other segment of the communityis. But the biggest thing that available now, willprobably that what industries may saythe JOb market is, or training get out. be outdated and obsolete bythe time those students you are skills that will allow them One ought to train students tohave other kinds of 43 But to say that right nowin to adapt and function atsomething different. from now Wilmington, Delaware, there arethese kinds of jobs, and fifteen years don't know if you meant itthis they may not be inexistence . . . Alto, I trying to set up theWilmington way, but it camethrough to Me that you were

schools as a terminal kindof education.

Mitchell: No, no, no. only kind'of horizon thatstudents coming ;4514 Moody: it came to me as if the

through the Wilmingtonschools wwild be -- E the middle of thepresentation, I 'Ruby Martin: Since I said "disgraceful" in The first thing I'dlike to ask is, what feel_a responsibility tofollow it up. community? flou say, "I Is your bargaining posturefor going to the business Those guys don't deal onthe basis of "I want this," am' youwill get what' But the reasonI said it's want" unless you're ready togive up something. coming through disgraceful is because you seem tobe assuming that everybody

forever.And schools should, the Wilmington school systemis going to be there that they can,developtheir\ it seems to me, not trainpeople, but educate them so these are the kinds ofoptions that are own choices. And you cp;i just say that be president of Xcorporation, out there.' If you wantto To, if you want to We're in a very mobilesod-16u. People- you have to havethese ;Ands or skills. citizens of this country.The move all the time. That's an option we have as

repulsive-to me because I think Idea of training someonefor any job anywhere is In very subtle ways, youngblack girls that's what has happenedtraditionally. babies and to take careof the in the South were trained totake care of white concerned, this is Justanother cut homes of white people. And as far as I'm

above that. concern in the contextof a question Ron Edmonds: I want t., try to put your issue of the discussion,and your that, in my judgment,would combine the broad needs of somebodywho's iii particular and properexpression of the practical 44 In the context ofdesegregation, a decision makingposition in a school district. in the United States what are the circumstancesunder which a school district offer pupils, as a conse- that Is, and is likely toremain, majority black, can district, those sets ofchoices that quence of theirparticipation in the school One; give them the choice give them a lot of things? I'll give you examples. both on a secondary ant. of continuing to participatein educational activities, about vocation, avocation,occupation, post-secondary level. Two, give them choices in terms of their repre- profession, and all the rest. Three, give them choices which they are a part, or senting resources that areuseful to the community of

become a part. I could go on, are useful to acommunity of which they might particular response. enough. (ou see, Bob has described a but I suspect that that's judgments, are I want to make the questiongeneral. What, in your collective of who controls theschools the circumstances underwhich answering the question students accumulate choicesthat are may partly an answer to whether or nJt

most seful to them? is that they know how toread, how to Ruby\Mai;tin: Another part of the answer

write, and-how to enumerate.

I want to put that on thelist right there. Ron Edmonds: Can I set that down? one of -thecharac- Thai lady just answered thequestion 1-r-- the following way: students is'that theylearn teristics of school districtsthat successfully serve

to read, to write,and to count.

feel fairly secure in myposition, and I Robert Mitchell: let me respond. I

should be doing in Wilmington. But I could use feel that I'm doin fwhat I

some direction;I could use someeducation. part of your program? If you have specific Bea Miller: Is continuing education will without onus put jobs, do you allow people to comein and out of school at being provided for these on them to makethe return?Are you working on money

kinds of returns? to getbeyond/The state Robert Mitchell: Right. In fact, we're even trying das not owe a says that after 21 yearsof age, the public education system hi7,(after that in the citizen anything, and therefore,anything you could give back regular day -school, he has to payfor himself. We have just tnrown thnt the last couple of years in the state's face, and we havegraduated students And the state said,"Well, who were twenty-two andtwenty-three years of age." for it, because he's they owe $1400 and something,"and we said, "eou sue us

(.indicated that I put my onus getting his degree,,"And they can come bank.

the child. I guess my positionis on the parentin the community rather than the parent has a concernfor his that the parent willlook after the child, and parents' concerns and theparents' needs, then child. And if I can support the

I am there. I'm not ignoring the I'm supporting the child. That's just where

aren't ignoring the child. But I'm saying, child, andI hope,that,my schools about the parents and their concernsand as a boardmember, that I'm concerned And I'm not in any wayignor- their needs and theirambitions for their children. and that may not be a verygood word to ing the child. When I say training, training, I'm really talkingabout use, I'm not reallytrying :o use the word that' we do, in fact, deliver the number of unemployedpeople In Wilmington,

have --a- choice- the kind of iduCatibb-andthe kind of experience-that-they can- jobs in the community thatthey of either going tocollege, or in fact, get in available,I would say, are available live ii. The kinds of Jobs that are

communities pretty wellthroughout the east coast. introduced as a result of youragreement? Ruby martin: What are the new curricula for it? And 1'11 come right out,what price did you pat'

haven't paid any pricebecause I haven't implemented anything Robert Mitchell: I

president four months ago. I have not !mole- yet. As I said. I've just become to the educators todevelop 1.--.nted any curricula. That will be pretty much up I'm not trying curricula. I'm not going to reallydeal with training because 46 -17- a

share of the Jobs in my to train anybody. But I am concerned that we get our area, which we are not getting now. I'm interested in trying to fulfill some of my community's. needs to get some jobs that theyhave not, in the recent past, gotten.

Chuck Moody: So what you're really doing is saying toindustry, these are the

students we have available, and do you have somejobs to match them?

Robert Mitchell: No, I'm not saying that.

Ron Edmonds: I would like to put another question. Is the fact that a small

portion of graduates of the Wilmington schools are nottaking Jobs a function

of what happens to them in school, or is it afunction of the attitudes and

behaviors of the people who hire people in Wilmington?, If it tuvns out to be

a function of the attitudesof the employers, then modifying the schoolswon't

make any difference.

Robert Mitchell: I think it's both right now.

Walter McCann:What is it they want?Has anybody told you?Have any companies

responded and said, "We have this kindof job, and we need this kind of training"?

Robert Mitchell: Right now we're setting up dialogue, andI want to know what

kinds of jobs are open. They're hiring anybody with Just a high schoolexperience, ted, -you -know; an ybodyi- --State troopers,-county-pol ice, ety ponte-,- t tm-lateres

recruited him five years ago, and there We have one black country policeman. I

hasn't been another since.

Ruby Martin: That's politics, not training. That's how much clout you have, and

how much pressure you can put on. Based on the kinds of things we have in our

country --

clout. All I Robert Mitchell: Well then, we need some clout, some political

wan. to do is see that somejobs come forth. There are a lot of jobs t"at we

should be getting that have c lot ofinput and a lot of pressure in thecommunity

that we just aren't getting. 47 18-

Walter's question, which I don't think Margaret Simms: I want to get back to Jobs that are available,what do you really dealtwith. And that is, of the aren't getting? Are you going they say they want thatapparently your students

allegedly are? to try to identifywhat those things I'm going to be concernedabout what kind Robert Mitchell: Not only identify, of qualifications. If we can get of testing processesthe!Ore using, what kind wel,\versed in want to be able tohave our people who are an agreement, then I the testing processes, this area, examine andre-examine the qualifications,

and things like that,and bring it downfront. only this point will notshow that I am the Walter McCann:The transcript up to see Bob Pressman overthere. non-black sitting aroundthe table. Although I be. That should be commenting onwhat strategies ought to So Idon't think I It's your concern. They are, after seems to me tobe somebody else's concern.

ButI am trained as alawyer, and I all, to some extentpolitical strategies.

I think Ihave some things, do work with the GraduateSchool of Education, so view relevant from a moretechnical point of at least somequestions, that are the strategy And the reasonI was intrigued by once you movein that direction. partly not technical. I wouldn't you've chosen is that it Ispartly technical and that- you Malt -need-to-- be surprised -if youarid-Ruby-were-- having- an- argumerrt

I these people specifywhat it is that they want, have. That is to say, once reading, writing, andenumerating. would be surprised ifit goes very far beyond specify anything more thanthat kind I would be astonishedif they could really think that it would high school. So I of very minimalskills and finishing standards like that and saywhat they be very important ifthey would establish edu- from a legal point ofview, as well as an need. It's obviously important this kind of thing leadsinto the cational point of view. It seems to me that they */ If you can get people to saywhat it is they think whole Griggs--area.

Footnote Griggs 48 have to have in order to hire somebody toproduce on the job, then it seems to

One is, if they do hire, 41, me you've laid the groundfor at least two things.

then you've got some basis for examiningtheir productivity on the job and pro-

motional practices. Second, if they don't hire,you've got grounds for saying,

"Well look, our students are meeting thosecriteria and the only possibility, into therefore, is that there are racialreasons."Then it seems to me that you're

technical way. So an area where lawyersand educators can help you in a very

having chosen that strategy, it seems to methat there really are some real

can't tell you if that's a better strategythan an avenues open to you. I

don't know the answer to thatquestion. This strategy, integration strategy. I better than another on its face, is not wrong.The question of whether it's

strategy is a different question.

of the debate, the mythicaldebate, Nary Berry: I'm reminded in this discussion equality between Washington and DuBois aboutblack education and about economic But they kept and political equality at a timewhen blacks did not have either. I'm also debating about it and forming movementsand doing all kinds of things. being reminded that in the Brown easel-Inconference, when the decision was And none of it -argued, all the discussion aboutthis question of inferiority:

_that. That's what they was about-what-equal-education was or- anything tike the discussion s-!d in the conference, but whenthey got to the decree, all of And the during the framing of the decree wasabout what is equal education. but what Justices, in fact, said, "Well wedon't know what equal education is, insist that blacks have we can do in order toframe the decree is just simply that is equal education or not, access to whatever itis whites have, and whether don't seem to bc; able to tellus." we don't know,because the education people legal questions Now, so long as you're talkingabout constitutional rights and people, whoever and you opt for the integrationistposition of the civil rights

Footnote Brown 49 education7" they are, then you, don't have to answerthe question, "What is equal

I guess, we'reall 411 But if you start dot g what Derrickis suggesting, and what, be talking about, and sta t talking abouteducation, and our children have to different.from educated, you first reco nize that you'retalking about something don't have any what the civil rights lawyers aretalking about, so you really Second, this argument with them. That's iffereht. It's not the same thing. is equal educational is not really a legal question. It is a question of what

What is quality education? I opportunity. What is of educatio al benefit? public did some research when Iwas in la school on the question of financing

education and how you got equalityof financing. That was before the Rodriguez

fashion a remedy, a decree sothat a judge case. I could figure out how to got ready to write down could order that there be equality,but every time I I couldn't figure what was going to make itequal so that he could announcethat,

literature; and kept writing out what it was. And I read all the educational 0 going to make educationequal. down these things, and I never did get what was their thing and we don't So we want to say then thatcivil rights lawyers can do it's a different issue. But need to contend with them. We will concede that fund some ap- what we need is some kind of athink tank, some kind of money to equal educational proaches to developing an answer tothe question of what is don't think white people opportunity, what is of educationalbenefit, which I

know, and they didn't need toknow even know. Before Brown, you didn't need to had access to it either. fou just did whatever yoL.did, and everybody went and

this way, then maybe we'llhave-to answer since Brown. But if we're going to deal ourselves up to try to answerthose those questions. We should say we're setting that keeps us from fighting. questions. That seems to me something I want to correct. They are addressing Jim Dyer: fou mentioned a point that proposals that CarnegieCorporation, Sthose questions. I have in my files several bad research. They deal among others, isacting on. They are neither racist nor 50 -21-

Five years from specifically with the same setsof questions you areraising. address some of these same now, or even two yearsfrom now, we might come to further behind with respect to aknowledge of questions and find ourselves even takes in a classroom,because what quality education isall about, what it really framework of discussions the questions being pursued arebeing pursued outside the

like this. quick thing in response tothat. Once one answers Mary Berry: Let me ask just one has to do to defineedu- the question by researching)t and doing whatever one then you have the cational,quality or what black parents seeas priorities, And then you can talkabout legal question of how youorder somebody to do that. -*/ position that even t4civil rights all the pre-Plessy-stuff and come to the because they coudn't lawyers might accept that the reasonthey went to Brown was think the issues are separable,and get what they wantedunder Plessy. But I

I think it's worth considering. lot to talk about not only con- Ken Toilet: Following Jim's remark, there's a effect that there's no cerning what's of educationalbenefit, but also to the least certain groups of them,because way to benefitblacks and poor, or at That's something that has tobe dealt with. The discus- of genetic deficiency. perspective-brings to my mind theproblem that confronted sion from the legal **/ I alluded to in thepublic dis- the court in theMcGinnis-Ogliblecase that that it would notprovide addi- cussion this morning. The reason the court said

so-called disadvantaged or poordistricts was because tional compensation for The problem of thecomplaint the educatrs could notdefine educational need. deprived districts and soforth, ceded was that poorstudents, students from more special programs,and more educationalinput, more educational resources,

richer districts. They were not arguing for so forth,than'the students in the

Footnote Plessy ** Footnote McGinnis-Ogilbie 51 expenditure for the deprived equality of expenditure. They were arguing for more

law. districts. Now what the discussion brings tomind is the limitation of the

If it is not possible to define educationalquality, if it is not possible to manageable say what benefits students, the courts areforced to deal with what's

I thought they could and what's simple. They can say there must beintegration.

say there must be equal expenditure perpupil. That's something the courts can preliminary manage. I want to come back to the originalquestion raised after that cleavage between comment. From a rhetorical standpoint, we created unnecessary char- what we are characterizing as civil rightersand separatists when we start

for acterizing our position as segregationist orseparatist and that we're not

for integration. I think integration. I think it's unwise to ever say ,we're not

what is a better strategy is to talk in termsof the proper definition of inte-

gration.

I was arguing for the supportof the continuation I will never forget when

Painter(?) of .Texas Southern Law School, which is aschool involved in Sweatt v.

(It was one of the remarkable features of thewhite mind that it considered the

in a University of Texas Law School integratedwhen it had one or two blacks of the total enrollment of fifteen hundred).And fifteen to twenty percent

enrollment at Texas Southern white regardedit as a segregated institution.

of integration and segregation. And I said, I Just don't accept that definition Thirty percent of the faculty We are not running a segregatedinstitution. institution, because we werepredom- was white. But we were still a segregated don't accept it, and it seems to me inantly black. That is a proposition. I table seems that we're almost buying theirdefinition. The rhetoric around this segregated, and there- to be that if an institutionis predominantly black, it's black insti- fore, because some of us are for thepreservation of predominantly

Footnote 52 segregation. lie need not tutions, we have to beagainst integration and for paint ourselves into that corner.

serious problem. It goes back to Ruby's Derrick Bell: four comment does raise a legitimate position in thisfield even thing again. Now are you able to make a don't hear when people like yourself, who arelistening, who are sympathetic, you're going to say it in a waythat those what you say?What hope is there that aren't going to hold you up as anex mple of it, that who really want segregation in the category of those those who were confused aboutit aren't going to put you ilk aren't going to who believe in segregation,that those of the Ken Clark just have to face up toit, to take\ lambast you? Is it possible, or do you

your stand andtake your medicine? It can be done bydistinguishing \ Mary Berry: It is possible. It is possible. what everybody's talkingabout, by categories, as I said before, by realizing And you can do that as youarticulate being very careful to makedistinctions.

a, position. minutes without getting intodefining Ruby Martin: Okay, could we take five without taking a position onwhether it's good integration versus desegregation, for five minutes, look atthe fifty or bad, either tine orthe other? Could we that nobody around this- 'school districts that are60 percent black and more, talk about the table is responsible for but thatin fact do exist, and try to school districts getting factors that mitigate againstthe youngsters' in those quality education is? 'fou can start a quality educationwithout defining what a just in terms of by citing financial resources, orthe quality of the teachers, list of things, and those arethe what they are paid. fou can continue down a cull out of all of thisconfusion. things that people aroundthis table have got to legally, socially, morally --however we can take And to consider -- politically, For example, teachers comewith them on in trying to redesignhigher education. of this. That's what biases and prejudices, etc., so wehave to backtrack on all 53 fou don't have to getinto a ffght with I'm talking about. I agree with you. 86 percent black, with the Legal Defense Fund becauseNew Orleans is there, graduates and their students. the lowest reading skills inthe South for their with it. I'm suggesting that That ils a fact of life. Somebody ought to deal . ought to be thatsomebody there's a need to do it. The division of resources that are impacting that looks at it and tries to dealwith what the issues are in a very negative way. school district, those vastnumbers of school districts, */ Richardsonrand has Ken Toilet: But the L Defense Fund is behind Adams v. predominantly black public all kinds of implications forthe preservation of

higher educational institutions.

Ruby Martin: fou've got to be kidding!

Ken Toilet: Aren't they?

Ruby Martin: As I reed Adams v. Richardson -- modified some as a resultof the Nafeo(?)/ Ken Toilet: The order has been question -- brief, but there's still a threatand there's still the

don't read that case that way atall. Mary Berry: I threat, that all blackcolleges are Ruby Martin: If you're saying that's a good threat. going to stay in the . . . I say that's a very presidents perceive it as athreat. Ken Toilet: Well certainly the black

Derrick Bell: I think they're wrong. what is the answer to yourquestion, Derrick? Ken Toilet: The main point . . . Constitutional Right or ObsoleteStrategy?" fou sale', "School Desegregation: be an obsolete Isn't the thrust of your paperthat school desegregation may

doesn't that mean thatyou're questioning s rategy?And if that's so, then

insist on desegregation,let's say desegregation Ih(he legitimacy of continuing to

rather than integration?

Footnote

* . Footnote 54 -25-

implementing Brown, I think it's obsolete. Derrick Bell: As the sole means for and go to the sameargument exactly, Ron Edmonds: That's what I said, Ken. I (es, desegregation is anobsolete strateby my response isthe Fame as Derrick's. one of many means, so, long as it isthe means. When it becomes a means, or through to get it andit justifies it then justifies thestruggle that we went The difficulty with itis that it is the any struggle necessaryto keep it. means and it is thesole means. desegregation)into inte- Ken Toilet: It seems tme thediscussion translated well that the earlylitigation was a fight gration. Derrick, you re.1, ,Jer very whether it requiredintegration. over whether Brownrequired desegregation or is, is that therewill be no That was the dichotomy. And if all desegregation duty dtegration means the:there's an affirmative more forced separation,

I can't discuss questions to bring blacks andwhites together, let's say su. to me if we without defining terms. I'm sorry. Talk becomes unintelligible integration, or what we meanby desegregation are not able to saywhat we mean by Wonderland dialogue if wecan't do that. or separatism. We are in an Alice in earlier suggests thateither you're And it seemed to me the answerto my question should not put so much saying that we should notcontinue to desegregate, or we of what do we mean bydeseg- emphasis on integration. Then there's the question

regation? What do we mean byintegration? segregated, desegregated,separatist: Ruby Martin: Is Washington, D. C., would the Detroit litigation,if it succeeds, Ken Toilet: I would suppose that is the The principle of whatI was talking about suggest that it'ssegregated. of blacks and whites. And idea that integrationrequires the bringing together district lines, maybe evenstate lines, ifthat that if you have to go across must be done in o-der tobring line of decision ,Jntinued,you'd say that's what

blacks and whites together. Derrick's paper, which Ivery much agreewith. Ruby Martin: I think the point in 55 is going to push thecourts anethe is whether trying toachieve that objective they have to deal withback public and the politicians tothe bring of whatever the entire processthat's home, and we're going to get akind of reversal of is going to comet° astop, and allof going to snowball. School desegregation trying to get.--development the other kinds of thingsAhat black people are cities -- may be verymuch affected. banks and the whole kindof redeveloping the there ought to be areal- And that's what's critical to me. It seems to me that take. istic appraisal of how much morethis country is going to surprised Derrick. I am in some sense Walter McCann: I have a guestion for what quality education hear people continue to saythat they don't know when I among blacks andwhites and others Is. I think yOu get very wide agreement That is to say, there arecertain minima about what basic qualityeducation is. schcol and ciphering, anduntil the public that have to do withreading, writing, there's very wide agreementas to systems develop thosethings and supply them, schools ought to be. So I'd start what the basic minimalobligation of public educators and lawyers,that we don't know there. rand I'd stop pretending, as moment, I'd take the national norms,and if the schools what that is. For the and if they don'tlive up to it, say that that's whatthey're going to use, That's not just forblack children; it's their problem. That's the way I'd start. scores venture to say thatif you look at the test that's for white children. I those children don'tdo substantially from the schools in SouthBoston, you'll find kids in the SouthEnd of Boston, diff ,ently, in largeproportion, than do the South Boston happens tobe of Irish which happens to be blackand Puerto Rican. longer than lots ofplaces. Let origin, e'cept they've beenhere for a little thinly, stated it as Derrick. Ruby, I me cone to thequestion thatI have for that there are atleast two different, an affirmativestatement. is it not the case both the legal andeducational strat- quite different kinds ofsituations, and that One is the situationwheee you do egies have toldiffer wrill respectto those? 56 Atlanta is the casewhich people already have substantial blackpolitical power. That is to say, youeither have or will 411 look at, but there are a lot ofothers. majority of black political have, not a mairity of blackschool children, but a predominantly black schoolboard. power in the city inthe sense that you have a Then the other kind ofsitu- It seems to me that that's onekind of situation. likely to have it in the near ation is where you don't havethat and you're not with but I read it as s3ying that future. Maybe I misread your paper, Derrick, integration is not obsolete, respect to the former situaion, the strategy of

it. fou've got power; do some- it's Just irrelevant.There's no need to attain

es of researchquestions that are thing with it And that raises a whole like this could con- unanswered for both black andwhite children that a center education, but how do you getit? That's the centrate on. Not what is quality w. list and then you setyoursel. Is up. laundry list. fou establish that laundry question. I would set myself I would now talk strategybecause I've gone off the because that's a processof debunking up to go andsupply help to those places With respect to thesecond, there's certain myths that are widelyprevalent. don't know if that'swhat your paper's a whole different setof questions. I the strategy in those really abput, or if ;our paper'sreally about debunking have a black majority. cases like Bostonwhere you're not going to that is both. It certainly is saying Derrick Bell: That it is really aimed at black, and the effort to the largest of the fiftydistricts are predominantly :24 The other thing is,I'm not try to integratethose schools is notworthwhile. other places, but there seem opposed to research in coming tothe Center here or

shown individualteachers, individual to be enoughinstances around where we've guess in someinstances where the schools where thepoorest\black kids and I to teach them. The challenge poorest white kids aretaught by people who want extraordinary individuals,inner- is how to create structureswhere even without and do it, you can getthe motivated individuals who aregoing to go out there 57 -28-

another are not, educational process functioning forpeople who for one reason or that middle class peopie in the main, able to bring to bearthe kinds of pressures school boards, on the taxing are able to bring tobear on the schools, on the integration, school deseg- situation, and what have you. And now really, really

for doing this. And it regation as with . . . Brown was a very fine strategy In some instances still in many instances is a veryfine strategy for doing it.

blacks is to get across whateverthe it is not. The particular challenge for after school dis- teemigues are going to be so this willwork in school district that the trict and overcome the barrier to aneffective education for everyone that book here in Boston? society has set up.Now who's the guy that wrote

schools don't educate anybody todo any- Kozol. Kozol talks about how American is and things like that. thing except to salute the flagand say how great America has a whole lot of benefits That probably isn't totallyaccidental, and it certainly Our problem is toget at for the folks who are on top. It occurs an awful lot. lead to that. least the black kids out from underthe various pressures that with the bar exams, which And it may, in that regard,be similar to the situation raised a whole lot of Cain, is a much more limited thing. A man in California who that the reason they filed suits endeverything, kind of indicated confidentially took the exam had the bar exam was to keep out atleast half of the folks who taking it again. They every time, and maybe todiscourage some of them from is really very small; said the number of blacksand Chicanos who take the exam but the number who were the percentage who were notpassing was very large, If you could come up with a way actually taking the bar exam was verysmall.

in all the white folks wedon't want, so we could letthem in without letting educational sense are talkingabout, it would be fine. So what we in a larger

get some of the poorblacks or a greater I think, is a means by which we can educationally effective mediumwithout percentage of the poorblacks over into an educated 3nd thereforetheir threatening the folks, thateverybody's going to be 58 situation is going to be greatlyjeopardized. listen to this, is Walter McCann: It seems to me a part of theproblem, as I of it, automatically that the way the paper is structured now,even the very title

separatist?" If the gets you into the debate of"are you an integrationist or a Ar places where integration paper were restructured todeal primarily with those begin to set out Is not a technical possibility, and wereto focus on that and "How do you the laundry list of questions like"how do you define quality?" define need?" "How do you establish controlmechanisms?""Is there something it seems in Brown that relates to citizenparticipation?" -- Questions like that, function in to me, might really serve afunction. Granted, it's a more limited

the sense that it would only concentrate onroughly half the black children, also where the byt that's an awful lot of kids, andit seems to me that that's think tank, or for black political leverage is. One strategy for a center or

lawyers, would be to concentrate onthose areas where powerexists. Mary's suggestion to separate the Barbara Jackson: I would like to go back to

things. But we get to a two issues, because thelegal ones deal with the two Like Ruby, problem when we try to define desegregation,integration, whatever.

talked to people in Atlantaschools, they I'm concerned about this becausewhen I

have achieved desegregation; the courts evensaid so. There's an 80 percent

I don't think black school system, but a lotof the kids still aren'tlearning. Is that just more money is going to do iteither. We've got to rephrase why it There are enough of us that are black kids aren't learning inlarge numbers. If the test exceptions that did learn according towhoever's rules there were. for a job in that of reading is on the forms theyhave to fill out when they go

test. Now that society, let's make sure theylearn how to read to pass that things, but doesn't'mean that they're not goi , tolearn a whole lot of other

energy trying to say the tests are I think we spend a whole lot of unnecessary live in a society that hasbias to it. culturally biased. So they are, but we 59 -30-

' that they don't have tolive I'd rather teach kids to passthat test than pretend that the test measures. It in that world and be morecareful about what it is I want to make surethey know measures just alittle bit of this right here. Then let's go on anddeal with some how to read that book to passthat test. lawyers define both other things and separate thelegal argument and let the of us can deal with whyit integration and desegregation,and then some others black teachers or whiteteachers. is those black kids aren'tlearning from either differently and forget My guess is that we need todefine the problem totally deprived of any kind ofculture, the whole myth that thekid comes to school empty, of five-year-old kids deprived of any kind of learning. fou've heard thousands people say our kids were non- yelling and screaming andtalking, and we let other

it doesn't make any sense. if you assume that verbal. In that kind of context, teach them that way. My guess they can't talk and theycan't understand, you an emotionalthing, so that is the argument overblack English got sidetracked on it to teach children nobody really looked at thequestion of whether you can use table know that blackEnglish to read standardEnglish. All of us around this talk it, and I've beenthrough all these exists. I can talk it and you can time on what that meansfor teaching white schools. Nobody is spending enough kinds of English,let's spend more children to read. Standard English, other it exists or not,when we know that time there instead ofworrying about whether

it does. think that if we aregoing to separate Chuck Moody: A couple of things. One, I be separated, thenthe next time, the two issues, and Ithink that they need to

those superintendentsand educators who a part of yourthink tank ought to have define, rather than havelawyers and other are involvedin those districts to think lawyers look atit from a certain way, folks making those definitions. I

But yet we said thatwe'll get around to making from a legalistic pointof view. input into what those would say that weought to have some some definitions. I thing. The next thing, black superintendents see as acructAl issue; that's one don't see anything in your paper slnte we're separating thesethings out, is that I don't know if policy and about policy, but I about strategy. I see something

look at strategy as a meansof implementing apolicy. strategy are the same. I if you're saying that Desegregation, if you're looking atit as a strategy, and comes in ratherthan if is the only strategy, t'n-nthat's where the obsolescence it as a policy state- you're looking from my point ofview. If you're looking at education of blacks, andthat is ment, then that raisesanother issue about the policy changes and policy that we're going to have tolearn to deal with those educational opportunity. analyses that are necessary toinsure the equality of school districts that nave I dare say that if you wentinto most of the fifty black students, the same black school superintendents orhave a majority of that school waspredominantly policies that that district wasoperating under when under now. How can you operate white are still the policiesthat they're operating whatever, with a policy that a system forequity, equality of opportunity, or unequal kinds ofopportunity?That's an was supportiveof an complementary to We have to look at thatpolicy analysis issue we have to addressourselves to. black superintendents and in those districts and thenmake sure that we have they see it, from adifferent other administrators givingthe kind of input as from a different pointof view, point of view, and boardmembers as they see it who have to implementthe policies, the ones who have to makethe policies, the ones

had enough training tosee-11°w they can legally andI guess the lawyers have

catch you up when you ain'tdoing the policy. desegregation as the I see school Elisha Gray: As I read your paper, Derrick, together whites and'blacks so that strategy at a time inthe past, for bringing abilities and the advantagesthat blacks could interact andintermingle with the that the time, and get thoseprivileges and advantages 411 the white kids had at that

But I see today that white kids were going to get over along period of time. 61 how we can integratethe materials you would have usform a strategy to find out whites that are goinj tobe and the professors who areteaching the blacks and that material right now,and our educators tomorrow, astrategy for integrating integration would be thatof inte- pursue that so that ourschool or educational will.be teaching, asopposed grating our strategy into theminds of educators who

Am Ibeing understood atall? to just trying tobring the bodies together. The first part iscertainly so, Bea Miller: I'm not sure if I followed that. the latter part, interms of but I'm not sure Iunderstood what you meant by

integrating the educators. of the materials that arebeing Elisha Gray: I'm saying that the integration And I'm also sayingthat utilized to educate our kidsshould maybe be changed. maybe should be changed, the minds of the people who areeducating our children integration is all about,and maybe it or maybe should betaught to know what cross-district bus'ng, to getthe will not have to be thefalling back on the integration, becausethat's minds integrated as opposed tojust back to school going to bring about somebad going to bring upon us somegood things and it's

things too, in certainminds. in black schools whereintegration Derrick Bell: Within some of these systems only can you hopefully save of the first phase type issimply not feasible, not also build on that savingprocess, the kids there to a greatextent, but we can eventually to amoremeaningful kind of methods and proceduresthat will lead where these are thepeople who integration, one that iscloser to equality,

are bringingsomething that's of value. And the causation asopposed to the symptoms. Elisha Gray: I see us attacking the causation the bodies together, itwill begin to address I think that by bringing of time. But the second phase, of why these thingshappen over a long period been con- attacking the causationsof materials that have as I see it, should be educating our kids and tinAally used to desegregatethe minds of those who are 62 -33-

skills, we have survived those who have educated us. Thanks to our survival

in the middle class orwhite class society. In the quickly. I've got two answers. Ron Edmonds: Let me answer the question in a desegregatedschool, first instance, when the blackchildren are in a minority the instruments it seems to me that the effectivething is to convey to parents issue in all of this is for protecting their children. More importantly, the organization; it is not instructional strategy,it's not materials, it's not for teaching, as the circumstances under which theinstitution is responsible One of the ways you dothat opposed to children beingresponsible for learning. in any school districtin is, you scrap normative measuresof pupil performance black control, and the way youdefine quality which there is, in fact, effective community to be served education in that setting is asfollows: fou go to the in order to get thecommunity and you engage in whatever processesare necessary mastery of eachsuccessive level to describe what thecommunity defines as pupil of mastery of each successivelevel of schooling. The community's definition judgment of what its children of schooling will be afunction of the community's

of the unfortunate bagof playing big need. And that gets the educators out autocratic role of saying, daddy, whether they're black orwhite, and playing the is to say, we have een "We know what's best foryou."That can be done; that of successive the technology that permits acommunity to define pupil mastery it, further to levels of schooling, then todevelop the instruments that measure materials that,convey develop the instructional behaviorsand the instructional

it, and on and on it goes. models of that situation youjust described? Mary Berry: Ron, are you aware of any large models that areimpure, and Iam aware Ron Edmonds: I am aware of some but too small in thesekinds of terms of some small models that arefairly pure is in Michigan, in someinstances I can think of to be significant.The large model all the way. But in California, but those are not purebecause they don't go 63 That is to say, theydemonstrate two they do demonstrate that itis possible. convene One, they demonstratethat it is possible to parts of theformula 1 gave: people who represent theeduca- people who represent thecommunity together with precise definition ofpupil tional establishment, and forthem to come up with a Two, the Michiganmodel demonstrates mastery of each successivelevel of schooling. of mastery and translateit into the technology by which youtake that description determining whether or not assessment measures so that youhave the means for

only the isolated schooldistricts it's being done. flow the other models are valuable only places like Florida andCalifornia, but those are I can think of in

in terms of anecdote. t..ave they been written upin avy Mary Berry: Even those that you mentioned,

kind of serious journal orthings like that? developing a committee inwhich Charles Moody ( ?)s Michigan isin the process of

skills. They cal) them they're addressing the high schoolcompletion competency of putting that on exit competency skills. That committee is in the process about two months ago, andthat brought paper, but thefirst meeting that we had was and educational levels, various people from various sectorsof life in occupations they felt exit competency and they just sat down andbegan to verbalize what level of saying that skills should be, and that isgoing to be placed on the schools should be able to every student thatgraduates from Michigan's high of them when they grad- verbalize or write what theskills,are that are expected

all the way back through,because the skills that uate. Now that will be taken might be implementablefrom K through are identifiedfor high school completion it's not just to saythat-when 12 before that skill canactually he developed, so will be taught. That skill might be you get to thetwelfth grade, that skill to graduation. in the mastery processfrom K through 12 all the way The elementary exampleis that Ron Edmonds: See, that's a secondaryexample. at variouslevels there are commissions thathave already described mastery 64 -35-

of Michigan's move- of the elementary grades, andthat was done in the context the technology people ment from normative assessment tocriterion assessment, and criterion who do the testing had tobe'ijiYen the /Community's definitio of the example of secondary andmine before they did . . . And that's why his is an is an example of elementary. have some reservations Betty Nyangoni: I'd like to say something aboutthat. I responsive to about how community schools have workedin terms of being really

guess I'm ratherskeptical of that the needs of the community. Therefore, I

I just have a great number suggestion. However, I think it's worth pursuing. of reservations about that. about the I have even more reservatiOns Ron Edmonds: I do too, except that

status quo.

Just feel that the theory and conceptof community schools, Betty Nyangoni: I supposedly implemented, have notrepresented as I have seen them articulated and can consider collective concerns of agiven community. And I think I what I think that unless we look at the ones that we usuallylook at and mention. I community schools, do something other than what occurredin the past with the transmitting that and in assessing what the communityreally wants, and then All I'm saying is, as aneducator translating it, we will still haveproblems.

ofdikficultydoing that. I think we'll have a great deal constraints, or not being Barbara Jackson: Is that because of organizational

able to find out in practice what thecommunity says they want?

both. Other areas as well. Betty Nyangoni: I think it could probably be fancy wonder what would happen if you wentout into one of the Derrick Bell: I I would think communities here, Lexington orNewton, and tried that process. themselves, that you'd come even going to all the highincome, educated people

happen in the schools. fou'd up with a mess in termsof what they wanted to wonder whether you would come outworse have a whole range of things. And I 65 if you really -- but where the dis- Walter McCann: fou'll find that there's a lot of agreement, Somebody slapped my kid, or agreement occurs is in what happensin the school.

somebody kept so and so after school, orshe was unhappy--

defense and be real quick. Ron Edmonds: I'm going to say one thinf, in my own

said is to leave educators free to usetheir own judgment The alternative to what I I'm being more about what should be done and whether or notit is being done.

skeptical about it than any theory ofintervention.

major civil rights groups that Ruby Martin: What would be the reaction of the by a distinguished are involved indesegregation litigation to a presentation list of items that group of black Americaneducators, lawyers, scholars to a be pursued? must be included in all futureschool desegregation litigation to

in Atlanta, equal The items woula include such things asthe things that we have teachers, but at representation of black or minorityfaculty members, not just

guaranteed compensatory education other levels. It would include such things as kind of work within some kind of reasonable settingfor youngsters who need that list of all the in a desegregated or integratedsetting, and it could include a have en- things that we have pointed out as veryreal problems that youngsters

countered and parents' groups haveencountered over the past twenty years as a look at what's part of the process ofdesegregation. In other words, to just Greenberg happened -- the fallout, the complaints --and just to go to Jack of --- have taught or the board of theLegal Defense rund and say, twenty years and we know that you are us the followinglessons: one, two, three, four, five, since we know that, we not going to stop filingschool desegregation cases, and part of the will insist or urge, whatever theright word might be, that as a about metro process for the next twenty years,particularly, when you're talking kinds of suits and everything else, that you mustinclude, as a minimum, these

things. 66 -3i-

generally would not be opposed toit. Derrick Bell: I think that the people

It's what priority it wouldbe given. be the price for bringinganother suit would Ruby Martin: No, it would he . . . part of the reliefand a guarantee to at least haveit in as a minimum that as a highest levels. that you will appeal anyitem thrown out up to the

in a lot of cases. The primary thing Derrick Bell: They've already done that

Is that if you get integration,we'll get quality education. strategy of callingin the New fork Times Ruby Martin: All I'm suggesting is the and put those guys onthe and the Chicago Defenderand the Detroit Free Press as critical or morecritical to mixing defensive. Just say that these issues are

of bodies. */ fork Times? Did you see the space? Ron Edmonds: Did you read the Sunday New They did three storiesin the New fork Did you see how they treatedthe subject? One was a-news storyin Times on Sunday on the twentiethanniversary of Brown. questions about deseg- which they alluded to a numberof people who have raised I want you to look veryclosely regation as the means, andI'm one of them. And

which they put them. Then I at how they treated thepeople and the context in

supplement to the SundayTimes and then I want you to look atthe story in the Greenberg has half a pagein which his want you to look atthe fact that Jack exclusively of what JackGreenberg full portrait appears, andthat article consists

has to say.

is a better newspaperbecause I got more Ruby Martin: Well, the Washington Post think that there is a wayit can be done. coverage than hedid. I Carnegie is one of theagencies supportingthe Jim Dyer: This is exactly why for this seminar. What I'm Inc. Fund and others. That's one of the reasons avoiding the answer tothat suggesting to you is that wehave copped out by

through the Earl WarrenInstitute for training question. The program that is run Footnote date 67 think it's an honorable black lawyers in the South is akind of convenience; I

they do with those lawyers. And I don't cop-out. It avoids the question of what think we can do that any longer.

supporting Ruby's suggestion. I think Betty Nyangoni: I'd like to go on re:crd that that's something that should bedone. And I'd like to point out a case

At issue is integration,the integration we probably will have insouthern Jersey. that one of the of a school district where it's notworking, and the problem is

school system for the areas , NAACP leaders suggested that he wantedto set up the when the national that were involved, and then hehad to retract that statement To call for'separate NAACP suggested that we aren't aseparatist organization. for the Advancement of schools is not in keeping withthe National Association suggesting that perhaps it'stime to Colored People. But other people were national level. In other re-think the NAACP position. It may not be on the but at the same time, words, Greenberg might be aspowerful as we think he is, of the civil rights there are levels of leadershipin the NAACP and in other areas duplicating your paper andgiving Ft to movements, and I took the liberty of

think that there are areasof consideration elsewhere our NAACPleader because I

on differentlevels. The question is, how do youget the peo6le Bob Mitchel): I like that idea. be taken? it was mysciiool who pay the money to takethe position that has to suit, and their primary board who hired the lawyersand paid $50,000 for the couldn't get my board to dealwith the ques- interest was the mixing of races. I achieving. That's not tion of how to give relief tothe students who are not Just total integration. So they their primary concern. Their primary concern is such a case. hired lawyers and were willing tospend public money to support

kind of criteria for casessuch as this that I think we need to develop some achieving, because thepeople would give better defense forstudents who are not about integration. That's who really control the money areoften only concerned 68 ', -39-. 1

I

is that black andwhite all they want, integration. The most important thing children rub shoulders together.

the ecrimonv of thedebate. It's the approach. Mary Berry: One of the problems is

I they quoted from Ruby.Although I agree with your I read the Post and what Greenberg or were somebody inthe NAACP, if I were Jack position, Ruby, if I ., been disturbedby the way_i_t_was ,someb dy, praise God,I would probably have morning about Jean Fairfaxcoming,a round phrased. I think what Derrick said this From now on, ifwe're to undetanding whathad happened in Adams, isimportant. to take this going to have a plan, if we'regoing.to have a suit, we want you what you've donebefore into account and do this andthis. And all praise due to

accepted. J'Ut it's the way you present and so on. I think that they would be

mis-characterize their position,and that's because you it. First of all, you And you do that some,Derrick, in don't distinguish thedifference exactly. black is inferior; it'snot saying that what they want todo is say everything And they just want ourchildren to any good, blackis inferior, black is bad. position, and if be up with white children. Well, that's mis-characterizing a let's take into accountwhat you emphasize thedifferences in approaches and say

think they would he receptiveto it. And at least you'd have is happening, I

a chance ofmoving in that direction. who was Now anybody who satand listened to Ron, Derrick Bell: I was quoting. integrationist thought, of chusea, repeatedhow much he was an to the point, I couple of weeks agothe and then indicated in,much calmer term, in his paper a and Nathaniel Jones,the General stuff Isay here. And to see Jack Greenberg the brightest young 'Council of the NAACP; andJulius Chambers, who's one of and consider a protege, he namedhis child after me, get up lawyers born, whom I

they were attacks. I just don't attack this man, I mean it wasn't a response; be If Ruby said what shesaid there, she would see it. I differ with you. and treat her that way. treated as an enemy. They would see her as the enemy 69 And Ken "lark is the same way,Roy Wilkins is the same way. have to be willing Mary Berry: But it depends on the goal. I mean sometimes you

to be a little bittolerant. And what they see Derrick Bell: Their basic goalis to protect their position.

integration. Now surely in as a threat toth positions is any question of where situations where there are reallyhorrible differences in facility, or dropout problems, the black teachers are being firedand where there are so many level of nrioriti they go in and represent on that. But that all has a lower Ruby's answer, than does the "Let's integrate as manypeople as we possibly can." raised this Ruby's suggestion, seems to me, answersher first question that she that's the only morning. There really has to be, in part, aquasi-revolution. is if it is attacked way you're going tochange the basic leadershipthinkirq ,

position. And I and placed under question andthcy have to re-evaluate their

don't think it's going to happen.

Ruby be elected chairmanimmediately Ron Edmonds: I'd like to/make a mot'an that

I will go, and be authorized toapprOach any necessary parties on my behalf. will write it in the termsthat they are Ruby, where they wish to meet us. I

will present it in the formateand the tone of voice andwhat Interested in. I and I'm -- all and so on, and that youknow you certainly have my proxy

Ruby Martin: That sounds like a put-down.

I am skeptical,Ruby. Ron Edmonds: It's not a put-down. The only thing is that certainly would like you If you have those people's ear,then God knows that I

I think it would be to put together just such anexchange as you suggested.

incredibly ruitful. session which would follow some more Jim Dyer: What I'm really suggesting is a lav-yers who strategizing on the part of thepeople here, especially the three That kind of obviously have a great deal thatthey could coordinate to say. interested but neutral scssion might well he put togetherunder .he auspices of an 70 might think of two or three otherswho would party such as the Foundation, or I be likely to be disposed to participate, partof what I call the Carnegie free lunch program.That might be a fruitful exchange.. And I'd be happy to host that, in fact, to participate in thestrateqizing besides. And I think that might be very useful. So rather than ask you to go on aKamekaze mission, I'll modify that slightly.

Barbara Jackson:We still have to keep the separateagenda of the educational policy questions totally separate from the legal one.

separation of the legal from Ken Toilet: I want to underscore the need for the

This laundry list, from my v!ewpoint, the educational. I see some problem here. trans- is important for school boards, thelegislators. But I see some difficulty

lating it into adjudication, certainly,adjudicationbased on the Constitution.

Not a problem of standard, butof the I see a justiciabilityproblem in it. manageability of the remedy and the projecting uponthe court administrative

don't think the courts would buy. The court and bureaucratic type cast, which i

articu- wants rules that are manageableand that it can enforce and that they can

think the paint made is important,also ,le matter late with some clarity.And I

of rhetoric, that is, the matter ofgaining adherents. Certainly if there's

anyone who's sensitive tothis, lawyers are. They want to win their cases.

If we want to help students get bettereducation, it seems to me we can phrase adherents to our arguments, we can stateoppositions, 'n such a way as to gain objec- decision makers and anyone else who willbe useful in accomplishing those

number of things that tives. Finally, and I'll make my summary, there are a and my career has beendevoted bother me. I'm already on record reoeatedly for,

entirely to, a concern for how to preservepredominar*-ly black higher educational secondary, institutions. So obviously I'm not opposed toblack schools, elementary,

to my mind as a result ofthis or higher. But a number of problems have come the big policy question, dialogue. One I raised this morning is the question, 71 integration and desegregation to what extent can youchange our rhetoiic about revolution? There without undercutting the greatbenefits of the civil rights

underpinning of it in this cou:try. I don't think is a moral, philosophical in this and it's you can just brushit aside. We've had one reconstructio,1 of the earlier reconstruction, possible to have another. If you read the history considerable progress blacks were in decision makingpositions, and there was There is this matter of being made as far as participation wasconcerned. There community control, which is a matterof governance andparticipation. "majority white district is one problem with communitycontrol when you'rejn-a

that wants to do samethirig **/ Whitcomb v. Chayel andthat what legal theory can bedeveloped to get this. in the direction line of cases, it seems to me,undermine the idea of moving but you're trying to get some of community control wherethe majority are white That's the issue that needs tobe faced. autonomy in the blackcommunity. the policies continue as Second is a matter of whenthe blacks take over;

before, wny don't the outcomescontinue as before. if the policies continue as

latest study where themedian act has gone down before? I'm familiar with the inquiry as to why that's a little in recent years. But there needs to be some the policies before were notsensitive the case. I would assume it's because this is a question that wasraised to black concern. Another problem related to when he said, "What goodis community at Ron Edmonds'presentation by Herbert Reid disaster area?"There is a control and power if you'regoing to be managing a been don't think money isunimportant, as we have problem of resources here. I be think that one of theobjectives still should saying around this table. I long way and that is equality of expenditure perpupil; that would carry us a

Footnote ** Footnote 72 -113-

there has to be something that the courts can manage. But more importantly, the question communication with the state, maybemoving into state funding, and that is, how are you going to get the resourcesinto these school districts so

education?The paper that was we can do what has tobe done to insure quality how we're given initially, Bob Singleton's paper,is sort of discouraging about O that is an importantconsideration. going to accomplish it. But it seems to me that

significant research go onregarding pedagogy, I think that it is imperative that black perspec- administration, and management ofeducational institutions from a established which is sen- tive, and that there is a needfor an institute to be

th-e-Tway, and responsive to the needs andaspitions EIT-bTack-S, aspirations of whites. I would be surprised to find are toomuch different from the incoming black freshmen The 1973 norms recently publishedby ACC indicate that the In other words, thequestion want careers and wanteconomic mobility, on thewhole. There really are blacks that was asked this morning canbe partially answered. of obtaining who want what whites want, and thequestion is, what's the best way whites as already what whites already have, or atleast what blacks perceive

having? present the NAACP peoplewith Mary Berry: I think we should at least try to I also think that the suggestion about modifyingtheir approach to these cases. Derrick's title, "Constitutional it is unhelpful to present theissue in terms of rights types uptight. Right or Obsolete Strategy."All that does is get civil

point of view, I think a position Bob Mitchell: From a school board member's group that was could be available that couldassist a school district or parent their total need as justtotal interested in reliefbut in fact did not see rather than integration, somebody who couldhelp them explore alternate avenues

just have the support of the groupsthat are for total integration. in terms of achieving acertain Margaret Simms: I think we ought.to think more In many cases, asindicated by goal with the minimum expenditureof resources. 73 we're expending the way in which manylarge school districts are structured, people who don't want tobe too many resourcestrying to catch up with white during the Atlanta case, awhole caught up with. During the course of that time, the schools without generation of school childrenhave passed completely through

Integration or desegregation orwhatever you a decision havingbeen reached. going, if we want to call itdid not benefit them. And at the rate things are generations think in terms of the metropolitansuit you're pursuing, many more

So at some point wehave to stop are going to gothrough who won't benefit. achieve some of and turn around and think ofalternative strategies that can

expenditure-a-time; energy, and money;-t- think-that-- the same go-als-1,41-th-Tess because ,that's certainly that basically coordinates someof the different things, places where we can't have what Ruby's indicating. We need to look at those

think we ought to concentrate onsome different desegregation effectively. And I the paper. kinds of strategies that would besuccessful in line with retitling

Right: One of a Maybe it ought to be phrasedsomething like "Constitutional obsolete, but it's not Series of Policies," whichwould mean it's not necessarily

the only this has been very helpful to me. Ruby Martin: I'm glad that I came, because think your paper reallylays it out very Regardless of the title, Derrick, I

well. we're going think before we can starttalking about equality, Chuck Moody: I think we call it to have to deal with someequity. We talk about equity, but I kind. We may equality, we say we want to spendthe same amount or have the same

things. On the notionof have to treat peopledifferently until we undo some control of and get in community control, one of mycontentions when blacks get

critically ill. I say they're the policy making positionis that it's dead, or disaster area, as you say, dying districts, and so you'rereally controlling the have blacks on Ken, which is something that wereally ought to look at when we 94 how school boards, in superintendencies. How do we expect, how do we support, do we look to them to divvy up that time, energy,and resources? Do we expect That's the them to be able to undo in a day or a yearwhat took years to do?

and we ought to have some kind of thing that I think we ought to be addressing, input from school board members, from schoolsuperintendents.

The first thing I'd like to speak tois the Delbert Gray: I have three things. fact that the civil rights cases that are beingpresented and will probably be presented for some time to come, have a goodfoundation and can serve us as

today, and those of us who foundations. Second, the fact that we as educators begin to develop phases are concerned abouteducation, can utilize those cases to affect our kids today. or steps on top of thatfoundation to work on problems that

think that's a good start. I think And Ruby, as far as lists are concerned, I list, and also that when that comes out, it shouldbe made evident as a general list and see each district that has thisproblem should begin to look at that general what things are proposed for theirspecific district and not take it as a utilize that list for implementation. statement. Everyone in that district should students are dropping out Third, my personal concern: In Michigan, over 40,000 integration that we must begin to each year. This is a problem in addition to the revised system of education as address. Kids are turning off not only to will probably be. we see it, but to the systemof education as it is right now o, integrated neighborhood, one of the Bernice Miller: As a person who lived in an to a black only ones at the University ofChicago who paid to send her children

I think we school, you know where I'm comingfrom. Now the other thing is that think until we have talked all day withoutmentioning students and what they learning to read right now whenthey're got to them. I think that if students are we're going In high school, if we don't get itstraight in the next generation

Because if they get talkedabut in to have more Zebra killersthan we have. they get talked cities :- sere they're trying tointegrate and desegregate the way 75 of killing. When you're about in Boston, it's a wonder wehaven't had an outbreak the burden. And IIIdoing that, and it's in the paper,that somebody's got to bear

It's got to be destructiveand detri- you can read and youknow the burden's you. is bad and white mental, and no matter how it comes out,it comes out that black

explicitly said all the timein this particular is good. And it's implicitly or

I And I would drop out too if part of the world, thatthat's what's happening. around the table. We'd better were a kid. And I don't know why we're sitting and worse, and do something and we better do it quick orits going to get-worse

wheels and maybe we're doingit backwards. I really think that we're spinning our all right to do other If we can't desegregate, or if wecan't integrate, then it's if we say we things, and this is the kind ofwhite mentality kind ofthing.

right? I think the better want to do it by choice, wethen become separatists, is to take both roads. way to do it, for thesake of the sanity of youngsters, But those of us Those of you who feel you candesegregate and integrate,fine. something to the effect in places like this ought toby choice stand up and say by the metropolitansuburbs that black kids are not burdensthat have to be s.,ed

who don't want them out there.

speak to those questionswhich I am very Jim Dyer: Without attempting at all to with my particular position sympathetic to, the questions that I see have to do

this, and I think that and the role that thefoundations play or can play in of a group such as role can be shaped at leastpartly by the recommendations

down into two specific areasthat we can separate this. And I see them breaking role of the dichotomy out. One is the whole questionof legal strategy, and the think that can be terriblyimportant and also that you've presented here. And I that and some activityaround that specific timely. Some attention can be given to

set of questions can beplanned and implemented. issues, much more complex, The second has to do with amuch broader set of we've alluded to, and which I'm really not addressingin this forum but which 76 legal strategies that's a question of edticationalresearch on which many of the integrate, how somehow come to rest after you'veintegrated, or if you want to there is precious do you go about measuring that.And about those measurements, Except that daily, at the little that is definitive thatis now available. processed and funded which foundation whereI work and at others, proposals are complex questions, and purport or at least try todeal with some of those very four years down the you have an ongoingdevelopment of materials that three or road people are going to have to try todevelop. There'll be another Jencks, thinkers and educators along with somebody else. I'd like to see some black

talking about. I developing the materials and thisother agenda we've been think the time is here. r follow Jim, because I'm think it's most appropriate that I Barbara Jackson: I institution like Atlanta niversity one of those blackthinker-educators at a black kind of -esources so that we canha4 black that Ithink needs to be given the It's not all there now. Fortu- people there that can do thiskind of thing. administration, supported nately, I'm in charge of adoctoral program in educational We don't really know how to by the Ford Foundation. It's in its second year.

just know down in my gutthat being black and train a black administrator. I Pd a superintendent. We've got a superintendentis different than being white those problems, how theydeal to find some better waysto let them deal with

field, I see us trying with their black boardmembers. So in that very important the questions about howblack kids to do some things. We need to reformulate We're lucky that we've got acouple learn and why they haven't andall that.

hadn't had contact withbefore. Spencer of other foundations. Carnegie, I seed research. We Foundation has given AtlantaUniversity grants to do some University, so that a lot haven't been enough in thatmode, we being ..tlanta The other piece of people aren't yet into it,but that's one encouragement.

begin to deal with thisis the grant Atlanta that I think is going to, again, 77 involve five high school Public Schools has gotten fromthe Danforth Foundation to other cities on a principals along with five highschool principals from four fellowship basis during the next year tosit around and figure out whyit is,

The other cities are or what they'redoing in their particular highschools.

Louisville, Minneapolis, St. Paul, andSt. Louis. And I'm going to be working with those five principals, trying todefine what the problems are.

\ very good, andI would Betty Ilyangoni: I'd like to say that Derrick's paper was underlying-assump- like to go on record as saying that I do agree with the basic

think it's imperative that we getfurther tions he raises in his paper, and I is gathered feedback and reactions from a wider segmentof the black community than here today.

and that is something I Chuck Moody: I'd just like to make my last statement but we don't have to beuni- really believe. As blacks, we have to be united,

form, and I just want us to understand that.