seco nd Sessio n - Thi rty-Fift h Legi slature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMITTEE on PUBLIC UTILITIES and NATURAL RESOURCES

40 Elizabeth II

Chairman Mr. Ben Sveinson Constituencyof La Verendrye

VOL. XL No . 6 • 8 p.m., TUESDAY, JUNE18, 1991

MG-8048 ISSN 0713-9454 Printed by the Office of the 0.-ns Printer. Province of Menitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirt y-F ift h Legislature

LIB - Liberal; NO - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne LIB ASHTON, Steve Thompson NO BARRETT, Becky Wellington NO CARR, James Crescentwood LIB CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights LIB CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NO CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples LIB CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NO CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NO DOER, Gary Concordia NO DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James LIB ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Ciif Interlake NO EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NO FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NO GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface LIB GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NO HELWER, EdwardR. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NO LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LIB LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NO LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NO MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NO McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NO PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NO REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob TurtleMountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NO STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NO SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary FortGarry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NO WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NO 123

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES

Tuesday,June18,1991

TIME-S p.m. been hearing public presentations. There are still a LOCATION-Winnipeg, Manitoba number of presenters who have expressed an interest in making a presentation to Bill 38. Shall the CHAIRMAN-Mr. Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye) committee continue with hearing public ATTENDANCE- 11 -QUORUM- 6 presentations? Agreed. Members of the Committeepresent The committee has previously agreed last Hon. Messrs. Enns, Praznik Thursday to hear from out-of-town presenters prior to considering presentations from Winnipeg Ms. Cerilli, Messrs. Cheema, Edwards, Evans residents. Is thatstill the desire of the committee? (Interlake), Helwer, Laurendeau, Penner, Agreed. Rose, Sveinson. Prior to resuming public presentations, did the APPEARING: committee wish to indicate to members of the public Rosann Wowchuk, MLA for Swan River how late the committeewill be sitting thisevening? WITNESSES: An Honourable Member: We will deal with thatat Frank Baldwin, Private Citizen eleven o'clock. Rick Wishart, Ducks Unlimited Mr. Chairman: Deal with it at eleven? Agreed? Steven Lytwyn, Manitoba Cattle Producers An Honourable Member: What did you say? Association Mr. Chairman: We will deal with it at eleven Dave Punter, Manitoba Environmental Council o'clock? Ray Fetterly,Private Citizen An Honourable Member: Let us see how it goes Robert Potter, Town of Stonewall at eleven o'clock. Greg Dandewich,Neicom Developments * (2005) Mr. Chairman: Ron Seymour, President, Stonewall & District Do we wish to considerit at eleven Chamber of Commerce then? We will consider it at eleven o'clock. Agreed? Agreed. lan Greaves, Private Citizen I would also request that any members of the Written Presentations Submitted: public who have a writtencopy of their presentation Bob Hysop, Private Citizen to pass along that presentation to the Committee Ken Halldorson, Superintendent of Schools, Clerk so that she can ensure that photocopies are Lord Selkirk School Division No. 11 made for the committee members. MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: I will now read the names of the presenters remaining on the list. If there are any members of Bill 38-The Wildlife Amendment Act the public in attendance who would like to give a

*** presentation this evening and are not on the list, please contact the Clerk of Committee, and your Mr. Chairman: Will the committee please come to name will be added to the list of presenters. order? This evening, The Standing Committee on (1) Mr. Roger Turenne, Canadian Parks and Public Utilities and Natural Resources will resume Wilderness Society, Manitoba Chapter; (2) Ms. consideration of Bill 38, The Wildlife Amendment Margaret Kapinga, private citizen; (3) Mr. Prasad Act. When the committee sat last Thursday, it had Gowdar, private citizen; (4) Ms. Dianne Cox, private 124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

citizen; (5) Ms. Mila Oh, U of M Recycling and which are important improvements. The Environmental Group; (6)·Mr. Jan Greaves, private amendment of the act concerning wildlife citizen; (7) Ms. Heather Henderson, private citizen; management areas is particularly Important to me (8) Mr. Kenneth Emberley, Crossroads Resource because it concerns habitat conservation and Group; (9) Mr. Carl Moroz, private citizen; (10) Mr. affectseducation. Dave Punter, Manitoba Environmental Council; (11) Ducks Unlimited Canada has already conducted Mr. Rob Altemeyer, private citizen; (12) Mr. Robert habitat conservation work in numerous wildlife Potter, Town of Stonewall, who is replacing Mayor management areas in Manitoba. Without a change Dave Lethbridge; (13) Mr. Don Sullivan, Choices; to The Wildlife Act, it is conceivable that challenges (14) Mr. Neill Adhikari, private citizen; (15) Mr. Rick to the existing regulations might prevent future Wishart, Ducks Unlimited; (16) Mr. Frank Baldwin, conservation initiatives or the maintenance of private citizen; (17) Mr. Robert Wrigley, private existing conservation products. citizen; (18) Mr. John Shearer, private citizen; (19) Mr. Brian Lucas, private citizen; (20) Mr. Greg I do not propose to give a bush lawyer's Mickie, Triple S Business Development interpretation of Bill C-38 but rather to state simply Corporation; (21 ) Mr. Norman Binkley, private my case as it relates to the bill and to the Oak citizen; (22) Mr. Ray Fetterly, private citizen;(23) Mr. Hammock conservation centre which is vital to Bob Gooding, private citizen; (24) Mr. Greg increased understanding of the wetlands and Dandewich, Neicom Developments; (25) Mr. Ray upland environment and its reliant species. Such Marquette, The Interlake Development Corporation; understanding is crucial to the perpetuation of the (26) Mr. Harvey Williams, TREE; (27) Mr. Brian wetland resource.

Pannell, private citizen; (28) Mr. Ron Seymour, * (201 0) President, Stonewall & District Chamber of I was fortunate to grow up in marsh land country Commerce;(29) Mr. Mark Gray, private citizen; (30) and have been lucky enough to live close to Mr. Steven Lytwyn, Manitoba Cattle Producers wetlands for much of my life. From my earliest Association; (31) Ms. Linh Vu, private citizen; (32) experiences as a child I have had a passionate Ms. Laura Reeves, private citizen. interest in waterfowl and other wildlife and have I also wish to seek the committee's guidance on explored and become familiar with many, many a matter. Mr. Frank Baldwin, a presenter from wetlands in different parts of the world. In many outside of Winnipeg, hasindic ated that he will have instances, these wetlands face problems today as to leave shortly this evening on an out-of-town trip. a consequence of lack of both human Will the committee wish to accommodate Mr. understanding and educated opinion. Baldwin by hearing him first? Agreed. The value of education concerningwildlife, which We also have a Mr. Rick Wishart, who is unable was presented to me as a youngster by various to attendsubsequent meetings. Did the committee family members and their friends, made a lasting wish to hear from him second? Agreed. impression. Thus I have attempted to assistthose interested to acquire an under standing of wild I would also like to indicate to the committee that places and wild things and appreciate their value twowritten presentations have been received, one and, where possible,to help perpetuate wildlife in its from Mr. Bob Hysop, of Killarney and one from the habitat. Lord Selkirk School Division No. 11. These presentations will be circulated to the members of Since 1981 when we, that is me and my family, the committee. came from Saskatchewan to live in Manitoba, we have resided in the Oak Hammock district. In my I will now call upon Mr. Baldwin to give his public spare time I have been actively involved in presentation. Please come forward. Mr. Baldwin's conservation and promoting understanding of the presentation is being circulated and he will be able environment and its wildlife, in particular waterfowl to begin shortly. and other species whose future depends on a plenitude of suitable habitat. Mr. Frank Baldwin (Private Citizen) : Mr. Chairman, members of this committee, by way of It was in the mid-1 950s that I first became aware introduction I am sympathetic to the amendment of of the importance of prairie wetlands and the habitat the act Bill C-38. It has several components, all of conservation work being undertaken by Ducks June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 125

Unlimited Canada. In the ensuing years, I have century. On all continents, wetlands are under been able to acquaint myself with its remarkable increased pressure from agriculture and contributions to the preservationand enhancement urbanization and are being degraded by pollution. of wetland habitats and its efforts to increase The lack of understanding of the magnitude of these understanding of this wonderful resource. problems and their solutions are major contributory factors, and it must be understood that the future of The Oak Hammock conservationcentre presents waterfowl and habitat depends upon educated an opportunity to utilize the many years of proven opinion. habitat conservation expertise acquired by DU Canada in an effective environmental educational • (2015) program in a setting which is emblematic of To me it is remarkable that despite the undeniable successful wetland reclamation and management importance of the Canadian Prairies and the conducted by a government agency and a private province of Manitoba to waterfowl and their habitat, organization. there exists no centre devoted to wetlands The St. Andrews Bog, as it is still known locally, conservation and education. was by the late 1960s reduced to a few hundred The environment, as we all know very well, has acres by drainage and agricultural encroachment. becomea catchword for the late 20th Century, but Local folk familiar with the bog recall the there has to be action if further disaster is to be deterioration they saw over the years and the averted. dramatic reversal brought about by the development of Oak Hammock Marsh in the early What is proposed at Oak Hammock is action to 1970s. provide a centre devoted to conservation and education in a place which existsas a consequence People in thearea familiar with the bog earlier this of the principles of wetlanddevelopment. century are of the view that the quantity of wildlife It is clear to me that DU Canada, a private and numbers of some species are greater now than organization devoted to habitat conservation, is in earlier days. Without doubt, the development of recognized as an experienced and knowledgeable the Oak Hammock permanent wetland and its leader in environmental protection and resource maintenance has provided an important spring and management. The existing role of DU Canada in fall staging area as well as habitat for a wide education is expanding to meet thecritical need for diversity of plants and animals. knowledge about our environment. The 1991 This is all a consequence of a partnership budget, for example, for education by DU Canada between the Manitoba Department of Natural is in excess of $1 .187 million. There has been a Resources and Ducks Unlimited Canada. More steady increase in the dollars spenton education, than $2.4 million has been spent by DU Canada in for example, $674 ,000-plus in 1989 and developing the site, the 8,800 acre wetland and $879,000-plus in 1990. upland showpiece. By human intervention then, For more than 50years, DU Canada has been at Oak Hammock Marsh, a provincial wildlife the forefront of restoration and management of managementarea, is recognized internationally as habitat to benefit waterfowl and other a prime example of successful wetlands wetland-reliant species. In that time,this nonprofit, reclamation and is designated a World Heritage charitable organization has developed the expertise Marsh by the Ramsar Convention. to research and evaluate, design and construct and As anyone familiar with the history of the district maintain habitat across this nation in conjunction knows,what is here now is a man-made, intensively with private land owners, other organizations, for managed wetland in the midst of farm land. The example, provincial wildlife federations, rural signs of human influence are everywhere and, with municipalities, and provincial and federal the exception of some residual upland habitat, the governments. wildlife management area and its centrally located The extent and scope of the work undertaken is marsh bear little resemblance to the seasonal well documented. Suffice to say, it has been hayland wetland of the former St. Andrews bog. colossal, and a great deal of habitat development There have been many major changes in the and management have been undertaken in status of waterfowl around the globe during this Manitoba, in this province. DU has developed, 126 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

improved or preserved over 17 million acres of Canada, for example. There are 123 Greenwing wildlife habitat in Canada, expending over $465 events, and the program continues to grow. million in the process. Land valued in the hundreds For example, in Edmonton the Greenwing of millions of dollars has been voluntarily set aside program has teamed up with the school board to by government and private owners for DU projects. pilot a 1 0-week schedule directed at the importance In 1990, Canadians contributed more than $14 of wetlands, their management and impact on million towards Ducks Unlimited Canada habitat wildlife and waterfowl resources, which is nowin the conseMltion work. In Manitoba, where there are school curriculum. DU Canada has contributed the more than 13,000 subscription-paying DU $16,000 necessaryfor this pilot study. It is likely the contributors, in 1990, much more than $1 million program wili extend eventually to coverAlber ta and was raisedfor conservation. perhaps even the rest of the Prairies. The work of DU Canada has brought benefits to I am delighted with the devotion of DU Canada waterfowl and other wildlife whose survival depends and its staff and its volunteers to the educational on water. Man, another animal, is a beneficiary. course. For example, DU Canada is currently DU Canada conservation work provides water for producing three new environmental education films settlements, drought and flood controls for farmers at a costof $200,000 which will become a regular and foresters, irrigation and stock water for ranch partof the library used extensively by schools,youth lands, and enjoyment for countless outdoor groups andothers across this country. Additionally, enthusiasts, both young and old. DU Canada has approximately $360,000 is expended annually by continued to grow into new andexpanded roles, for DU Canada in delivering presentations to such example, its vital involvement in the NorthAmerican groups. For 1991 , as I mentioned previously, the Waterfowl Management Plan, Prairie Care expenditure on education by DU Canada will be Program, environmental research and education more than $1.87 million. This does not include the and extension services. enormous commitment of time, money and expertise by volunteers who organize and run As I mentioned previously, my interest in the Greenwing events, for example. wetland environment and its species goes back many years. More recently,since I have been living In Manitoba, these occasions range in scope from In the Oak Hammock district, my interests have an educational camp, such as that organized and turnedto how such places as Oak HammockMarsh run by volunteers from the Turtle Mountain can contribute to increasing the understanding of Greenwing Committee, the Provincial Greenwing habitat and its wildlife. For the past eight years, Camp held at Marshy Point each year at East each spring, a group of us have conducted habitat Meadows Ranch, to the Oak Hammock Wildlife and wilcllife education events at the marsh, directed Identification Competition held each spring, or the towards teams of youngsters from schooland youth Riverton/Arborg Greenwing event held each organizations. These successful educational summer. events, within the Greenwing program of DU I am convincedthat DU Canada is determined to Canada, are run by volunteers and form a modelfor further the cause of conservation through education others across the country. and is committedto the expansion of environmental education across the country. In 1990, $1 32,000 • (2020) alone was spent on Greenwing events. The I believe fervently that environmental education is Conservator Magazine, which carries conservation of extraordinary importance, and that is why I and articles and a section devoted exclusively to many people like me, as well as DU Canada, have Greenwings, to kids, is distributed to 12,000 a commitment to the Greenwing program. This youngsters three times yearly, whilst an additional program for youngsters, which has been in place 130,000 are sent to others across the country. This nationally for many years, has as its specific year, at a cost of $69,000-something which is very objectives the promotion, understanding and close to my heart indeed-an up-to-date handbook appreciation of habitat andwildlife, the management of wetlands, wildlife and conservation will be of resourcesand their rational and ethical use. This published, both in English and in French, and educational commitment is a story of success. distributed to all Greenwings. It will also be made There are close to 12,000 Greenwings across available to adults and schools, and more June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 127

educational publications of this type are Educational program staff will be able to draw forthcoming. upon the resources in the DU Canada national operation centre and the expertise of DU biologists I view the Oak Hammock conservationcentre with and other staff. DU Canada operation services the expertise of DU Canada staff in its operation's such as computerized accounting will be available headquarters at Oak Hammock to be vital to the to the education centre whilst maintenance, development of Oak Hammock as an educational servicesand utilities will be shared. centre. As I mentioned previously, the Oak Hammock conservation centre is an opportunityto There are those who feel strongly that do something about environmental education. conservation operations and educational facilities should be separate from one another and that the • (2025) centre should not be located adjacent to a marsh. The soundness of the Oak Hammock Conservation and education are too closely conservation centre proposal from an associated to be isolated, but in any event, the costs environmental perspective has been proven of constructing, developing and operating separate following wide-ranging environmental impact facilities are so great as to be unbearable in these analysis and public environmental hearings, and times of financial shortage. there is an ongoing monitoring program as well as The proposedmarshside location of this centre is scrutiny of the environmental aspects through the entirely appropriate to its functions. The Citizens Advisory Committee established for this educational component musthave thesupport and purpose. Construction will be undertaken in co-operation of its conservation counterpart, its carefully chosen phases so that thedisruption ofthe administrative facilities, its staffand their expertise, marsh ecology will be minimal and only temporary. for it to succeed. The development and operation It is true that a small area of land will be lost to the of this centre, with major involvement of a conservation centre, but the long-term benefits to privately-funded, nonprofitorganization , will ensure conservation through education are, in my opinion, that its future will not be subjectto budgetary effects substantial and much greater than compensatory. which frequently have had such dire consequences The low profile, two-story building designed to for government funded establishments. blend into the landscape will include an What is proposed at Oak Hammock is not a environmental education centre and thenational high-rise monument to corporate business as some operations headquarters of Ducks Unlimited. It is would maintain, but rather an unobtrusive centre entirely logical to me that the biologists and other dedicated to conservation and education. research staff, planners, designers, engineers and Elsewhere in the world, structures located at the support personnel vital to conservation, should be edge of marshes have not had a negative effecton located within a complex devotedto education and the surrounding habitat or wildlife, for example, the an understanding of environmental issues and that famed conservation, education and research this multidisciplinary complex should be located in headquarters of the Waterfowl and Wetland Trust an environment which is, afterall, a living workshop. on the marshes of the Severn River at Slim bridge in Education is crucial to understanding the England, which receives 270,000 visitors a year. environment, and I view the proposal for Oak The Trust has seven centres in the United Kingdom Hammock as a major step towards problem solving. which receive a total of more than 800,000 visitors The environmental education component of the annually. In Australia, the Shortlands Wetland conservation centre will provide indoor and outdoor Conservation Centre on the shores of a marsh near learning facilities. The centre will be open year Newcastle, New South Wales has actually round to the public, school classes and tour groups registered an increase in wildlife population since its and will feature special events, short courses, development and use as a conservation, education natural science seminars and workshops. centre in a managed wetland. Formerly, it was a The operations component will accommodate the football ground. expertise of the DU Canada conservation team. Concerns about wetlands and their conservation The operations and education components of the and education about the wetland environment are Oak Hammock conservationcentre are inextricably not exclusively Canadian or NorthAmerican issues. intertwined. All around this planet there are concerns about 128 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

wetlandsand how education can help to combat the Ducks Unlimited Canada, whose operations deterioration of the resource. headquarters have been in Manitoba since the Last year at the general assembly of the foundation of the organization more than 50 years International Union for the Conservation of Nature, ago, and the Manitoba Department of Natural the World ConservationUnion, I was a participant in Resources proceed with establishing the centre at the development of strategies for bothwetlands and Oak Hammock as proposed. the global strategy for sustainable wildlife The venture is of extraordinary importance from resources. I cantell you thatthere was a great deal the perspectiveof wetlandsand wildlife. It is logical of discussion among delegates from around the a wetland conservation centre should be located in world on the important role education must play in the Prairies. To me, as a Manitoban and as a conservation. Canadian, it is importantthat it be in Manitoba, and Education is being embraced as a solution to it is my hope that the centre and the expertise wetlands deterioration, and there now exists an necessary for its function will be secured for organization named Wetland Link International, the Manitoba. aim of which is to promote both the quality of wetland It is evident that the remarkable and continued educational centres and the establishment of more growth of Ducks Unlimited Canada makes a wetland educational centres throughout the world. The secretariat of Wetland Link International is at conservation operations headquarters for DU the Wildfowl and Wetland Trust Headquarters at Canada inevitable. It is clear to me that DU Canada Slimbridge in England. has well-defined educational objectives. What must be understood by all is that the future If the proposalto place the conservation centre at of habitat depends upon educated opinion, not Oak Hammock is unsuccessful, there is, of course, hearsay andinflexibili ty. Theyoung people of today no certaintyas to an alternative location in Manitoba. will eventually make the important decisions It is my hope, for the sakeof habitat and wildlife and impacting upon habitat and wildlife resources. It is Manitobans both young and old, that the Oak not yettoo late, I believe, to inform people of all ages. Hammock conservationcentre, with both operations and educational components, proceeds without What is proposed for Oak Hammock is a centre further delay. In my opinion, which is corroborated of national and international importance. There will exist for the firsttime in Canada a centre for wetland by many others provincially, nationally and conservation operations and education. Its internationally, this is a wonderful and unique importance to Manitoba lies beyond conservation opportunity to do something of long-lasting and education because it will also be a focus for importance for habitat and wildlife conservation. tourist interest. Because of its location and One furtherthing, I heard this eveninga reporton proposed amenities, it will function effectively for CBC Radio that DUCanada is notinterested in the year-roundeducation and recreation. preservation of Canadian wetlands. To that I say,

* (2030) balderdash. Ample evidence is provided, as I have indicated here, by 17 million acres of wildlife habitat It is clear that the Oak Hammock conservation developed, improved, and preserved by DU centre will be of great value to schools and other Canada. In 1990, more than $14 million were groups. For example, educators from the Lord Selkirk School Division, who already use Oak donated by Canadians, and all of this can be Hammock Marsh for educational purposes, are substantiated, I might add. hopeful that the conservation centre becomes a I heard also this evening from the same reality so that they can expand their curriculum and redoubtable person on the CBC that DU Canada is not be restricted to visits dictated by climatic a duck hunters' organization. To that I also say, conditions. Of course, the conservation centre will balderdash. Much less than 50 percent of Ducks also provide much needed educational Unlimited Canada subscription-paying contributors opportunities for young and old from southern who donated over $14 million, are not hunters of Manitoba and beyond. waterfowl. These are facts which can be It is my hope that parochial and self-interest and substantiated, and so is what I have presented to political considerations will be set aside and that this committee this evening. June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 129

It seems to me and many other people that there see this expand as far as the Greenwing programis are those who are not interested in facts, who will concerned, but hopefully influence others from other do virtually anything to discredit and tarnish the organizations to participate in the sortof educational reputations of those with a fervent belief In programs which are absolutely vital. conservation who are prepared to actually do Whether they run them or whether it is run by something to ensure that wetland resources are somebody else does not maHer. The important perpetuated by action and education as opposed to thing is the value of education, and that really is what the unending rhetoric of the theoretical I am talking aboutthis evening. environmentalist. Mr.Chairman: Mr. Edwards is next. Thank you. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Baldwin, as Mr. Chairman: Mr. Baldwin, thank you very much you know, we are here considering Bill 38. I for your presentation. We will entertain questions understand and hear your support for the Ducks from the committee now. Mr. Minister is first. Unlimited project at Oak Hammock Marsh. What I Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural would appreciate your comments on as a Resources): Mr. Baldwin, I simply want to thank conservationist, as someone with obvious interest you for your presentation. I have one question. I and experience in the area, is Section 3(1 ) of that perhaps want to thank you more for the opportunity bill, which indicates thatthe minister may make such that you have given this committee and myself to regulations as he considers appropriate respecting appreciate the work of the volunteer education the use, control and management of an area; program, known as the Greenwing program, that authorizing, regulating or prohibiting any use, you, sir, have obviously been involved with. activity or thing in an area; authorizing the construction, operation and maintenance of any I, too, have to deal with facts, Mr. Baldwin. The building,stru cture or thing in a wildlife management simple fact is, it troubles me that some members in area. the public perhaps fail to appreciate and understand, but I have to face that fact. When I first I appreciate what you have said, as I have indicated, about your support for this particular became the Minister of Natural Resources for the Province of Manitoba, 7 percent of the fiscal project. How do you feel, as a conservationist, resources of the province were made available to about that level of ministerial discretion? that department to carry out its mandate. Today, Mr. Baldwin: Well, as I have already said in my because of the pressures and priorities of other introduction, which you have a copy of in front of government services demanded of us by many you, I am sympathetic to the amendment of the act. people, certainly members of the opposition, I have said it has several components, all of which organizationslike the Choices; social services have are importantIm provements.

taken away a great deal of that. Today, Natural * (2040) Resources only has 2 percent of the provincial I see this as an important improvement, because resources to carry out its mandate. no maHer what we may think, many, many things My simple questionto you-1 believe it is evident have been done which we would all say are probably from your brief. I look to the centre to enable for the good of conservationin wildlife management organizations, volunteer organizations, of whatever areas and other areas underthe jurisdiction of The description-and certainly the one that you are Wildlife Act which in fact has been bending the involved with in the Greenwing program-to carry legality slightly, because there are all sortsof things on nonetheless the volunteer andthe very needed which, over the years, have been done forvery good public education programs, particularly for our purposes but could conceivably, at least some of young. them, I believe, be challenged. Mr. Baldwin: Well, you have an assurance from Is it not sensible to have legislation to ensure that me, because I am currently involved and have been what is in the regulations at the present time is for many years with the Greenwing program. I included in the act so that there is some sort of believe that whatever we can do to educate people jurisdiction over it? As I have indicated, I am not both young and old is of extraordinary importance, claiming to be an expert,legally or otherwise,related and from a personal point of view, I intend to not only to The Wildlife Act, but it seems to me that my 130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

understanding of the amendment to the act is that it wildlife management area legislation now should be embraces a number of things which need to be curtailing development in wildlife management embraced. areas, or limitingdeveloping in wildlife management Mr. Edwards: Just one further question-and do areas? not take my question wrong, I do not defend that Mr. Baldwin: Well, let me say two things. Firstly, same provision being in the regulations for the last there are many of us who have had awareness of decade, which it has been, which is the ability of a the environment for a very long period of time, so minister to override the tenetsof the regulation, but what you are saying is that amongst many people my question is, and I take it your answer-1 just want this is a very recent phenomenon. I can assure you, to be clear-is that in your view it is advisable and as I have already indicated, that this is not a recent at the very least acceptable to have a ministerial phenomenon for many of us. Furthermore, what override over all of those things that I have you seem to be asking is whether wildlife mentioned, which is essentially anything and management areas are areas which should have everything that might go on or be built in a wildlife absolutely nothing done in them at all. conservationarea. H that is what you are asking, this means that Mr. Baldwin: I would have to seek a legal opinion furthermore no work of any conservation type on it, because I cannot really express whetherthe pros and cons can be supported legally. I do not whatsoever could be conducted in a wildlife know. management area and, indeed, I think we are already beginning to see the difficulties which could Mr.Edward s: Just one furtherquestion then. H in be encountered in wanting to put in place fact this section gavethe minister an override-- conservationwork in areas that come within the act. Mr.Baldwin: Excuse me, override over what? You may be aware of the Lake Francis marsh, for Mr.Edwards : Well, let me just refresh you. I read example, and the fact that the Metis regard thisas it once. As you know,there are regulations in place. a heritage marsh and the fact that any conservation There is a regulation governing activities in wildlife work in there is actually stalled at the present time, management areas, and I assume you are familiar until such timeas there is some mechanism which with some of the things which that regulation sets will permit ittotake place through the environmental out in terms of what you can and cannotdo in wildlife channels or through the ministerial channels. management areas. H the minister and the minister Ms. Cerllll: alone were entitledto overrideany and all of that at One of the other things that you his discretion, wouldthat be a positivemove in your mentioned when answering Mr. Edwards' question view? was-- Mr. Baldwin: I think it would be important, taking Mr.Baldwin: Sorry, I cannot hear you. into account that there are other controls, and--1 Ms.Cerllll: One ofthe other things that you said in have not finished yet-there are other controls. answer to Mr. Edwards' question had to do with The There is The Environment Act, and The Environment Act. Is there a part of Bill 38 that you Environment Act, I believe, has very distinct can specify that lead you to believe that The jurisdiction as it relates to environmental matters. Environment Act would override this piece of So, as far as I understand, ministerial jurisdiction legislation? would certainlybe in place, but would itnot be a case of having this in the correct environmental Mr.Baldwin: Are there not two sets, twopieces of perspective? legislation? Is The Environment Act not The Environment Act and The Wildlife Act, The Wildlife Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson) : Just to pick up Act? Is The Wildlife Act not provincial and The on this point, Mr. Baldwin, would you notthink, given Environment Act is by federal and provincial-isthat history aside--and I would agree that there have not right? been things done in wildlife management areas in the past when we did not have the environmental Ms.Cerllll: What I am trying to get at is, is it your awareness that we have, when there was not the intention that any development in a wildlife need or awareness that wetlands are management area would be subject to The disappearing-given that, would you not think that Environment Act? June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 131

Mr. Baldwin: No, I did not. It is not my intention. field, the collation of results elsewhere, or indeed in What I said was, it is my perception, it is my an institution which has recently been established understanding that that is the case but, as I said, I for those purposes. would have to seek legal counsel on that, because * (2050) I do not know. It is my perception, but it could be wrong. Now the precise research that would take place-as a scientist, for example, I could no more Ms. Cerllll: Would that be a recommendation that tell you the precise research that I would be doing you would make? in two years time, so I could not possibly tell you Mr. Baldwin: No. I am not here to make what other people will be doing. recommendations. I am here to present a brief in Ms. Cerllll: With respect to the proposal that has support, not make recommendations for been made public lately which would include a amendment, for a change. I understand, for number of, to use the term •museum,w kind of example, that they can make no amendments to this exhibits, I am wondering, what do you think of that act. Is that right? proposal? Maybe in another sense, you could tell Ms. Cerllll: Just to clarify, Mr. Baldwin, this is an the committee, what is your vision for developing opportunity for the public to make presentations and interpretive programs at Oak Hammock Marsh or in make suggestions for how we could improve the other wetland areas? legislation, and we will have an opportunity,after we Mr. Baldwin: Rrstly, I am not quite sure of the have heard all the briefs, to make amendments to proposal you are talking about. If what you are the bill. That is my intention, to be here and to listen thinking of is a plan for an integrated typeof learning to presentations so that I can propose the best facility which would exemplify wetland environment amendments possible that are going to protect and reliant species and so on in that particular wildlife management areas and develop wildlife centre, I wholeheartedlysupport that. management areas in a way that is going to be preservingthe environment. To me, if one is looking at waterfowl wetland biology, one cannot restrict oneseH to exclusively Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions for what happens in my back paddock at Oak Mr. Baldwin? Hammock, because virtuallyevery bird thatwe have Ms. Cerllll: Taking from the last page in the brief, here is a migratory bird that moves an enormous there is a sentence: "If the proposal to place the distanceinto thesouthern partof the United States, Conservation Centre at Oak Hammock is for example, or into Central America, so we are unsuccessful there is no certainty as to an looking at a multitude of different types of alternative location in Manitoba.w My question is, environment. Others who know much more about why not? this undoubtedly will be presenting briefs on this Mr. Baldwin: Perhaps somebody knows better subjectanyway. than I do of a marsh land site relatively close to a Ms.Cerllll: You seem to have a lot of experience major population centre which would achieve this and, certainly, knowledge about the Ducks purpose. I know of none. Unlimited education programs. I am wondering if Ms. Cerllll: That leads to the question, what you can tell me what kindof programs you think are research or other programs are going to be done at important to have in wildlife management, the officecomplex? You seem to have a fairly good especially wetland areas, what kind of educational knowledge of Ducks Unlimited. programs? Mr. Baldwin: Hang on. Let us just clarify this Mr. Baldwin: Virtually any educational program business of office complex. I have difficulty with that provides an educational experience so that this. I thought I had made it very clear in my brief people can understand how wetlands work, what what my perception . was of the operations the problems of wetland-reliant species are, what component, wherein there are the biologists, the solutions are, and so on and so forth. There is planners, designers, agrologists and so on and so a broad range of botanical and zoological forth. Most of the research that takes place within component parts, for example, as well as the, in my understanding at any rate, Ducks geographic influences, which can all play a very Unlimited organization,·takes place in either the important role. 132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Ms.Cerllll: One more question: You have listed am also interested in preserving and also in job the amount of money that Ducks Unlimited has creation in the rural area. My questionis: Could we invested into this marsh and wants to invest more not preserve the environment and still have the money. Why not put that amount of money into ability to view nature at Oak Hammock and have the othE!r marshes throughout the province or other office buildings in some other town, for example, at areas that need to be refurbished or reclaimed as Stonewall? Why do we have to have the office wetland? building in the marsh in order to have the ability to Mr. Baldwin: Firstly, from a personal point of view view nature and enjoy it? I view this conservation education component as Mr.Baldwi n: The cost of building and maintaining being of extraordinary importance from the point of a conservation centre includes not just costs in view of long-term understanding. The funds that dollars but costs in expertise, and surely the are used by Ducks Unlimited to do this are not funds expertise which is available-and the expertise is that are going to be subtracted from the funds that proven over a great period oftime-is located in the we already spent. For example, the budget for this Ducks Unlimited operations component. For year includes, say, $14 million raised within example, if you went to the existing DU offices in Canada, and I am talking now about DU's Winnipeg, of which thereare two, you would find in conservation work as a wholeplus monies which those offices a great deal of expertise relative to all come from the U.S., but there is no suggestion that types of aspects of conservation. The precise any of that money is actually going to be used to rationale for a unified approach, that is, the undertake and to pay for the conservation centre at conservation centre which includes both the Oak Hammock. That is going to be done with new educational/interpretive component plus the dollars. operations component, is because those two are Ms. Cerllll: Are you aware of how much money inextricably intertwined from the functional point of Ducks Unlimited is going to put into the view but also from the funding point of view as well. redevelopment of marsh land in other areas in Now, if you start off from scratch and build one Manitoba? place here and one place there, you have to Mr.Baldwin: This year? No, I could not tell you a increase enormously just the costs of construction dollar figure, but I think one has to look at this from and disruption and so on and so forth as well as all the long-term point of view. theinterrelationship betweenthe expertisewhich is required in one place that will feed on another. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the next presenter could give us thataccurate information for Ms.Wowchuk: Sorry, I guess I have a little bit of Ms. Cerilli, but it is my understanding thatit is in the difficulty with the necessity to have the office order of-it fluctuates between $5 million and $7 building right there in the natural setting, what is million annually that Ducks Unlimitedof Canada has supposed to be an educational centre. My next invested in wetlandrestoration here in Manitoba. question is: Can we not have a North American Ms. Cerllll: I guess what I would be interested in educational centre without having all the extras of finding is the percentage of the DU money coming alligators and all of the other animals that are being into Manitoba for wetlands that is going to the Oak brought in? Can we not have the education centre Hammock marsh site. without all the other extras?

Mr. Baldwin: None of it. As I said just now, the • (21 00) funds that are going to be used by DU to build the Mr.Baldwin: I see now the p,roposalthat was being conservation centre are new dollars. These are mentioned earlier. This was, in my understanding, dollars that are going to be raised entirely a draft proposal of some years ago which, like many independently, as well as from the sale of existing proposals, includes for the sake of completeness all assets, because Ducks Unlimited owns a building in sorts of ideas which are flown in committees and so Winnipeg, for example. on and then shot down or withdrawn. There is Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Yes, if I absolutely no intention whatsoever, as far as I have could just ask a couple of questions of Mr. Baldwin. ever been aware, to turn Oak Hammock into an You indicate that you are interested in education everglades marsh. That in itself, if one applied a and preserving the marsh and conservation, and I little bit of logic to this particular component-! June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 133

wonder how expensive it would be to maintain a guarantee. There are no guarantees in this world replica of an everglades marsh. I think one has to about anything. For example, one member of the be a little sensible about this. committee has already asked me about whether we Ms.Wowchuk: I think that is what we are trying to would be able to do this sort of thing in a marsh be, is a little bit sensible and just see how far this elsewhere in Manitoba. I have already replied to idea is going. I am asking you about whether you that. I have said that there is only one marsh of any have any concerns, whether you think these other consequence within closedistance of Winnipeg. All extras are necessary, as was part of the earlier the others have been drained. This one was proposal as you indicate, or whether what you want drained also, but it happens to have been turned is a natural setting with Manitoba species to be back into a man-made, managed wetland. This is viewed there? not a threat as far as I am concerned. This is common sense. Mr. Baldwin: I think the intention always is for Oak Hammock to be maintained as a prairie wetland. There may be a decision made. I do not know. The fact that there may be additional things there There may be a decision made that-well, if this is like computer systems and so on and so forth to not possible, ifthis is denied, who knows? I do not exemplify things, is neitherhere nor there. know. Ms. Wowchuk: Just one further question, on the Ms.Wowchuk: I wouldlike to say, ifI did say June last page as Ms. Cerilli had mentioned,you had said that was not my intention, although I do not think I that if Oak Hammock was not successful, we may did say it. We will wait till we have checked the not know with certaintyof other alternative locations records. If I did, I apologize. That was not my in Manitoba. Have you had any- intention at all. Mr. Baldwin: Hold on, hold on. Sorry, may I now Just one furtherquestion. As you had Indicated, respond to that? there are many people in Manitoba who contribute Mr. Chairman: One second, please. let her to Ducks Unlimited who are interestedin preserving finish. wildlife habitat throughout the province. Do you have any concern that, by concentrating all their Ms.Wowchuk: Can I ask my question, please? efforts in one area of the province, other areas My question to you is: In that comment it sounds throughout the province are going to suffer? This sort of threatful I would almost think, and I want to has been something thatwas raised to me in my ask you if you have had any communication with constituency this weekend, where there are many Ducks Unlimited or are aware that they will not be small projects,wild goose nesting areas, andthey interested in setting up projectsor contributing into are concerned that their other projects throughout Manitoba, going on with theirwork, if this project is the province are going to suffer because of this not allowed to go ahead? concentration. Do you have any concern about Mr.Baldwin: let me correct you on the facts. The that? facts which are on that piece of paper in front of you Mr. Baldwin: No, I do not have any real concern are not what you just said. What you just said was about that, because I do have an inkling of what is if this was not completed by the endof June- in the future as far as educational and other facilities Ms.Wowchuk: No, I did not say June. in Manitoba falling within the jurisdiction, for example, of the Greenwing program. This is a Mr. Baldwin: Yes, can we have it from the record, province-wide and in fact nation-wide program please? which is expanding now and will be substantially Mr.Chairman: I do not think that we will have it that expanded in the future. As far as it detracting from quickly. conservation work elsewhere, the answer to that is Mr. Baldwin: Because that is not what I said, but no, it will not. moreover I understand what you are gettingat. The long-term strategy-and others who know No, this is not a threat. What I have indicated more about this than I do-for Ducks Unlimited work here is as I have indicated before. What I said was in Canada is mapped out sometime hence, not just exactly the same both to the Environment hearings from the point of view of local projects, but overall and to the Stonewall hearing, that there is no plans. A great deal ofem phasis at the present time 134 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

is being focused on the North American Waterfowl Mr.Baldwin: I cannotgive you numbers, but other Management Plan, the Prairie Care plan and so on people can. I can give that information to you at a and so forth. Thereare many, many projects which future time or you will likely hear more about it later are either underway now or are proposed for the on, but suffice it to say that the expertise of those fl!ture,some of which are awaiting for environmental persons in the operation�centre and its facilities will approval, for example, Lake Francis. be available for educational and interpretive programs. There are, I believe, numbers with Ms. Wowchuk: I am sorry, Mr. Baldwin has regard to people who will be directly involved in mentioned one particular project twice now, and I interpretive programs, but those numbers, I would believe it is Lake Francis. Can you tell me-l am have to get those on advisement. just not sure what that project is. Is that another Ducks Unlimited project? Where is it and what is * (2110) the- Ms. Cerllll: Are there currently Ducks Unlimited Mr.Baldwin: Lake Francis is a wetland areawhich staffwho tour people through the marsh? is at the easternmost end of the Delta Marsh at the Mr. Baldwin: The Oak Hammock Marsh, as you southernend of Lake Manitoba. The Lake Francis know, is managed by the Department of Natural Marsh extends from the St. Ambroise Marsh to St. Resources and the Department of Natural Laurent. As you probably know, there is a Metis Resources provides staff for interpretive programs, community at St. Laurent. The Metis community but for anything that is done there, it is fairly have always regarded the Lake Francis Marsh as restricted. At the present time, I can only speak for their marsh, and they have been very enthusiastic what I do in a voluntary capacity along with to see this lake rehabilitated. numerous other people. Since the implementation of Hydro programs on Ms. Cerllll: So in your paper you described a Lake Manitobaand since the high water levels in the number of programs that Ducks Unlimited offers. '50s, therehas been an enormous alteration in the Are those programs offered by staff? Are those fortunes of the Delta Marsh of which the Lake programs offered in Manitoba wetlands where Francis Marsh and Lake Francis is at the people are actually taking groupsor individuals on a wildernessexperience? northeastern end of it. There has been no work possibleon the Delta Marsh as such. Thep roposal Mr. Baldwin: I have restricted my comments to work in the Lake Francis Marsh is of inordinate exclusively to therole of volunteers. Because I am importance as far as that particular wetland is not a Ducks Unlimited employee, anythingI do is in concerned, and if anything is going to be done to a voluntary capacity. So those 123 events are rehabilitate, for example, the Delta Marsh orseveral organized and run and invariably paid for, to a other major wetlands which are megaprojects in certain extent, by volunteers who may themselves Manitoba, the start has to be made somewhere. be biologists and so on and so forth in good standing. Mr.Chairman: Are there any other questions? Ms. Cerllll: We just came from a budget where Ms. Cerllll: I would like to go back to one of the Natural Resources staff were decimated-over240 questions I was asking before. I do not think that Natural Resources staff. We are in a situation many people opposing the complex are opposed to where we are wanting to create employment and environment education that could be done in wanting to protect the environment and educate co-operation with a variety of organizations. The people about the environment. Is what you are issue of how to develop interpretive programs, proposing-this is what I was getting at when I was environment education programs, in wildlife asking about your vision in terms of developing management areas is important to be discussed, interpretive programs--does it not make sense to and I am sure that there will be a variety of opinions you to try and employ people directly in the role or on how to do this. into the job of providing interpretive tours or My question is: Are you aware of the number of interpretive programs in the marsh itself? Ducks Unlimited staff who would be involved in Mr. Baldwin: I cannot give you numbers off the top direct education programs, taking people out into of my head, but the intention is for there to be the marsh? interpretive guided programs which will be partially June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 135

funded by Ducks Unlimited and, in addition to this, dedicated people who worked tirelessly to assist us. the volunteer or the part-time component. Others In Manitoba, there are over 13,000 members will have to give you that information, because I do supporting us; and in 1990 alone over $1 million was not carry that sortof stuff around in my head. raised at 89 community events organized by scores of volunteers across this province. Mr. Chalrman: Are there any otherquestions? Mr. Baldwin, thank you very much for your presentation. Contrary to what we have heard by a few of the presenters to this panel, we are not a commercial Mr. Baldwin: Thank you. organization out to make money off of marshes to Mr. Chairman: Would Mr. Rick Wishart come pay out to shareholders or to finance our work. Our forward, please. Mr. Wishart'spresen tation is being shareholders are the province's marshes, and we circulated now. Mr. Wishart, would you please are investing our hard-earned donated dollars to proceed. protect and enhance them for the wildlife that live Mr. Rick Wishart (Manitoba Provincial Manager, there. Ducks Unlimited Canada): Thank you for Overthe past 50 years- providing me the opportunity to address this The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, committee with regard to Bill 38 proposing please. amendments to The Wildlife Act. I am here because without these amendments put in place, Ms.Cerllll: Sorry to interrupt you, but thereis some valuable habitat restoration and enhancement work confusion withyour brief. It is starting on page four. being done now in wildlife management areas may The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau) : It starts not be possible in the future. on page two. You are missing a page. We will just I come before you representing Ducks Unlimited get you anothercopy, Ms. Cerilli. You have it now. Canada, a conservationinstitution headquartered in Mr.Wishart : Sorry for the inconvenience. Manitoba for 53 years since its inception in 1938. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Carry Ducks Unlimited Canada is a nonprofit organization on, please. whose goals are to actively preserve, restore, develop and manage wetlands and associated Mr. Wishart: Over the past 50 years, were we to waterfowl habitat. rely on others to do thiswork, one of three things would have happened: (1) either the work would We are a nonpartisan watchdog for wetlands and not have been done and we would have fewer work with governments of all jurisdictions and all wetlands andless wildlife as a result; (2) other social political stripes to ensure the protectionof wetlands. and service programs delivered by government Our work consists ofdeveloping habitat projectson would be reduced to pay for wetland protection; or the ground, but also of promoting positive legislative (3) the taxes of those in andoutside of this room and policy alternatives that will benefit habitat. would be higher in order to accomplishthis work. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Chairman, in the The membership of this committee could Chair) speculate better than I about which of the options The habitat projects we do, putting our money would have been followed. Other nongovernment where our mouth is, so to speak, gives us the groups represented in this room andelsewhere did credibility to help influence such changes. Ask this not and do not have the wherewithal to accomplish or any other government if they do not hear from us this work. on a regular basis about protecting habitat. We Ducks Unlimited is a big organization these days make no apologies for this operating philosophy, because there is much work for habitat that has to because under its banner we have accomplished a be done. The job seems to be getting bigger rather great deal for wildlife on this continent, more than than smaller despite our enlightened environmental most other groups and through private-source society. Most people and organizations still really funding. are ignorant of the tremendous losses in habitat Ducks Unlimited Canada is financed largely by occurring as a result of agricultural clearing and road contributions from individual supportersthrou ghout construction, to name but twoof the most important North America. Our strength over the last half impactors. Such losses occur quietly and without century has been in hundreds of thousands of much fanfare, and you rarely, if ever, see much 136 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

protest or practical suggestions for alternatives million. An additional three projects are underway, coming from those wholive within the perimeters of as we speak, encompassing another 240,000 our larger cities. It is not because they do not have acres. To date, these projects have cost Ducks a sincere love for their environment, but, Unlimited $10.8 million with another $1.6 million unfortunately,it isbecause they are not aware of its required to see them through to completion. In the deterioration at their doorstep. near future there are plans to initiate two new such Across Manitoba there are 10 Ducks Unlimited habitat projects totalling 6,000 acres and improve offices employing 140regular staff. Over the past two older existing projects. To date, over $250,000 year DU expenditures by these Manitoba offices has been expended in designing these habitat was $23.8 million, and since our inception this total enhancement projects which will call for the is now up to over $13 0 million in the province. DU investment of an additional $6.9 million to complete Manitoba has developed 1 , 180 active wetland them all by 1995. projects in this province totalling over one million * (2120) acres of habitat. These projects provide In total, then, by 1995, DU will have developed 22 tremendous economic and environmental benefits wetland habitat projects in Manitoba's WMAs to thepeople of Manitoba well beyondthose simply encompassing 839,000 acres at a total cost of $24 accruing to waterfowl and other wildlife. Flood million. This work has consisted of improving or protection, erosion control, groundwater recharge, creating wetland habitats and associated uplands water purification, provision of stockwater and as well as ongoing operations, repairs and sources of irrigation are but a few of these benefits. management to maintain the productivity of these Each of these projects attempts to enhance the areas. Such projects provide direct benefits to a biodiversity of our environment and are good wide variety of indigenous plants and animals and examples of how to go about the process of tremendous recreational and economic value to achieving sustainable development. Manitobans who use them. Recently Ducks Unlimited has played a key role In some cases these projects have created new along with other government agencies and NGOs habitat or improved natural areas. However, in a across the continent in implementing the Manitoba number of cases, such as at Grant's Lake, Oak Prairie CARE Pr ogram, a key conservation Hammock and at Saskeram, works have been component of the $1 .5 billion North American emplaced to restore areas that had been impacted Waterfowl Management Plan. This program, which by agriculture, drainage or by flooding. is a tremendous example of how diverse interest groups can combineinto a much more powerful and This then is what DU is accomplishing in positive force for environmental conservation, will Manitoba's WMAs. Often just naming an area a see $134 million invested in southernManitoba over wildlife management area is notenough. Few of our the next decade. areas are natural anymore, and most have been impacted in some way. Wildlife habitat will be significantly improved as a result of this program. In addition, farmers who own For example, mostof the marshes around Lakes most of our best wildlife lands will make direct gains Dauphin, Winnipeg and Manitoba, and there are economically while at the same time improving the many of them, are still there, but they are there in a long-term productivity of their existing agricultural terribly degraded state due to the construction of operations. This unparalleled combination of large water control dams on the big lakes and due revenues, determination and skilled people will see to the artificial influx of carp, a fish that does a the implementation of a winning environmental tremendous amount of damage to marsh habitats. program , and DU is proud to be a major partner in We have still many thousands of potholes in it. southwestern Manitoba, but again, up to 90 percent Overits long history in Manitoba, DU has worked of them are impacted and degraded according to closely with all provincial governments in Canadian Wildlife Service surveys. With this developing and improving many of their wildlife degradation of habitat, DU has recognized the need management areas administered under The Wildlife to restore and enhance the productivityof all that we Act. To date, DU has completed 17 such projects can to make up for the loss. Oak Hammock Marsh encompassing 592,000 acres at a cost of almost $5 as it is today is but one example of this work. June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 137

Contrary to some of the expressions made before feel its continuance will be assured as a result of this committee, DU does not own or lease WMAs proposed amendments to The Wildlife Act under and other Crown land upon which we conduct our Section 3(1 ). We understand that the amendment work. We are there at the invitation of the simply brings forward existing regulations into the government to help improve or restore these areas act and it is these regulations which have allowed for all Manitobans. We are bound by legal us to construct the dams, dikes and other works agreements and must follow the normal water and necessaryto restore wetlands in WMAs. environmental licensing process in our activities in In addition to all of the directhabitat work DU has these areas. DU's wetland developments and project operations have greatly enhanced local and will continue to undertakein Manitoba, we have wildlife populations. identified a need for more involvement in public conservation education if the destruction of our For example, at The Pas, fur trapping within these valuable wetlands is to be halted. Contrary to the multiuse WMAs in that partof the province provide views of some, the conservation education facilities a major source of traditional income for native and programs that presently exist in this province residents. The number and quality of muskrats are not sufficient. Facilities that provide year round coming as a spin-offfrom those wetlands developed programs for all sectors of society, both indoors and and managed by Ducks Unlimited is extremely high. out, are needed. The Oak Hammock Marsh Recent surveys have indicated that while managed proposal was made to provide such a program. basins only make up 28 percent of the surveyarea, they produce 59 percent of the muskrats for these (Mr. Chairman, in the Chair) people. In the Saskeram WMA 81 percent of the The proposed program is one that is in an early muskrat come from just one marsh that has to date concept phase and Dr. Wrigley, theacti ng director, benefited from management. can provide the committee with factsabout it in his Native groups at The Pas and elsewhere are presentation later on in the hearings. Thedistorted extremely supportive of our works and we and nonfactual outline of this proposal given by co-operate closely with them in these some of those addressing this group is rather developments. disturbing but I trust this committee will sort the Our projects also benefitwat erbirds, shorebirds, wheat from the chaff in what has been said. DU has fish, moose, turtles, invertebrates and plants of been instrumental in the restoration of wildlife many varieties. Some of these species are hunted, habitat in the Oak Hammock WMA since 1972 and fished or trapped by Manitobans, either for to date, we have invested heavily in this marsh. recreation or incomeat particular times of the year. DU's involvement in the area actually dates back to Most, of course, are not and provide the 1940s when restoration developments for the nonconsumptive benefits for recreationists, area where first proposed and designed by Ducks birdwatchers, hikers or canoeists. Again, such Unlimited. activities promote an appreciation for the Surprising though it may seem now, there were environment, educational opportunities and many who spoke out againstthe restoration of Oak economic benefits. Hammock back those many years ago. At least it is Overhalf of DU's membership are nonhunters of encouraging to now see these same people agree waterfowl, and most of what we do is with the that, after all, the concept was a good one and the consent of private landowners. We have the project was more than a success. This wildlife mandate of attemptingto achieve the widest variety mecca, close to several large towns and the city of of wildlife and environmental benefits from our Winnipeg, is an ideal location for a conservation projects. education centre. In fact, such a centre was part of All of this work over the years in Manitoba's the plan initiated 20 years ago to restore the marsh WMAs has taken place only as a result of before the area had even become a WMA. We feel co-operation and approvals DU has received from strongly that both components, the DU the provincial government of the day under the administrative facilities or the offices and the auspices of The Wildlife Act and its regulations. interpretive facility must go together and that This has been very beneficial for Manitoba, and we combined, they constitute the conservation centre. 138 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

DU, as has been said several times, is a nonprofit Manitoba which was formalized by Order-in-Council organization and everything taking place in the 1377. Theactual contract that was agreed to at that administrative component of this centre will be time by your organization and the Manitoba channelled either directly or indirectly toward habitat government was done for the consideration of that conservation initiatives of the types that I have interesting $1 again that seemed to be important in described. Many have spoken out against this the presentation here last night. It was formalized project but many, many more can see the logic on January 10. behind it and the conservation benefits that it will Among other things, the Province of provide. We feel the concept is correct. We are Manitoba-the Order-in-Council being signed by encouraged by the tremendous support that we the then Premier Howard Pawley and Minister of have received from many quartersfor it and we look Natural Resources, Mr. Mackling, and I believe Mr. forward to its realization in the months and years Stewart Morrison, vice-president, who is still your ahead. immediate superior-agreed that the province Again DU speaks strongly in favour of Section grants Ducks Unlimited the right to construct dams 3(1 ) as a proposed amendment to The Wildlife Act and/or other works on the aforesaid lands as shown which we feel will facilitate approval to allow this on the attached Plan A prepared by Ducks Unlimited important and beneficial project to proceed. We Canada; that the province grants to Ducks Unlimited also feel that such an amendment will foster the the right to excavate, construct, place, inspect, alter, ongoing establishment and enhancementof wildlife add to, remove on, under, across, along, over, management areas across the province in future through or from the aforesaid lands any structure years. that forms part of the project. That is a formal We urge this committee and the government to contract that was signed by the Howard Pawley administration in 1985. approve theproposed legislation. Thank you. My simple question to you, Dr. Wishart,atthe time that you undertook that agreement, was there any I have provided the committee in their handouts interest expressed on the part of those who are some tables at the back of the presentation outlining currently expressing this concern about violating the in more detail the work that we have done in WMAs. sanctity of Oak Hammock Marsh? Were you Mr. Chairman: Thank you. brought before any committee of government to explain what it is that you were going to construct in Mr. Enns: Dr. Wishart,just one particularquestion. and on and about Oak Hammock March; or did you, I wish to thank you, of course, for your presentation in fact, act in goodfaith with the governmentof the here this evening. I am also aware that Ducks day and carry out those works to the benefit of the Unlimited Canada has done business with the marsh which has steadily grown under the joint province of Manitoba and, in particular, the auspices of your assistance and that of the Department of Natural Resources for many years Departmentof Natural Resources? with the governments of the day since your inception. Mr. Wishart: That is absolutely right. We go through that process at any time where we are * (21 30) proposing works or have been invited to undertake I am aware there are those who have suggested works on Crown land. It is the process that has to that due process or not sufficient opportunities for be followed. In some cases, environmental public input or examination surround this particular licensing, since the new act was established, is project. I am aware that you, yourself, participated required. Water rights licensing is required. Block in a substantial number of informational hearings, planning agreement is required. Municipal public hearings, at the local level and then, of resolutions need to support our projects. course, the formal extensive environmental Landowner agreements-any private landowners hearings which took place some time ago, and now, involved in the project must approve of the project. of course, these meetings here. So there are all manner of agreements and processes to go through in developing any of our My particularquestion to you, Dr. Wishart is-1am projects. also aware that, not that long ago, you signed another contract with the then government of Mr. Enns: Thank you. June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 139

Mr. Chairman: I would just like to make one I have not got a figure in estimate of what it is, but it commentto the committee members, that being that is a fair bit. if you choose to make a comment-and you can do Mr. Laurendeau: Thank you very much, doctor. I this-however, follow it lastly with your question. It appreciate that. was noted just a while back that, in fact, there was a comment, a question and then about another Ms.Cerllll: The point the minister raised with all the minute of a comment, and it was somewhat mixed other construction that was okayed by previous up. governments in developing in marsh, was any of that development to put up an office building? If we could just follow that comment and then lastly the question, we will continue. Mr. Wishart: Did you say destruction or disruption? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert}: I noticed Ms. Cerllll: Was any of the bulldozing and the throughout your presentation, the dollar figures that construction in Oak Hammock Marsh to put up an you are presenting that are being spent here in the office building? province of Manitoba by DU. Could you tell me what Mr. Wishart: It was to develop the dams, dikes and percentage of those dollars are raised in Manitoba control structures which are also indicated in The or come from outside ofthe country? Wildlife Act. Mr. Wishart: Our budget this year and in the last Ms.Cerllll: What was the purpose of all the other five years is averaged on the order of between $6 construction that was done at Oak Hammock? and $7 million, and last year we raised about a million dollars in this province, so about Ms. Wishart: I guess you have not been to Oak one-seventh, one-sixth. Hammock or seen these projects, but the idea of restoring these areas is to try to establish a water Mr. Laurendeau: So the rest of those dollars were level that will support aquatic plants and upland like a transfer payment from the United States then? plants that will provide thehabitat necessary for the Mr. Wishart: Yes. wildlife that we want to promote there. Mr. Laurendeau: When you are relating these Ms.Cerllll: I think that the point that I am trying to dollars spent within the province of Manitoba, are make is that-1 understand that there has been you relating any volunteer hours being put forward other development in the marsh but no other in that presentation or is this strictly the dollars that development has been to put up an office building, are being put forward? There are a number of and that there is a dramatic difference between volunteer hours that could be accumulated and having construction to reclaim or refurbish the added if the province were to have undertaken this marsh and constructionto put up an office building. and spent the dollars to do these projects. Can you see thedifference? Mr. Wishart: No, this was strictly staff time and Mr. Wishart: Oh, I see the difference, but those direct cost to the corporation. No volunteer dollars other features that we just talked about and or values are represented in those numbers. described would also potentially be prohibited unless this amendment were allowed. They are Mr.Laurendeau: Would you have a breakdown of how many volunteer hours go into the presentations covered under the regulations at present. If those and the educational programs that DU brings regulations are not formalized as partof the act, they forward in this province at this time? would also potentially be subject to nonapproval or illegality. Mr. Wishart: The Greenwing program is primarily volunteer operated. We have, like I said, 87 Ms. Cerllll: Can you explain that further? I am not volunteer committees across the province. It was following what you are saying. the objective of our national organization to see Mr. Wishart: I am not sure how to say it again. I each of these committees undertake at least one can repeat it. Those activities-the dams, dikes Greenwing event for the youngsters in that and water control structures-are covered under community. So there are a substantial number of the regulations as allowable by the government. events, a substantial number of volunteers. There Without those regulations brought forward into the is also a substantial amount of staff time that goes act, those activities could also be called into into helping these committeesput on these events. question; that is the point I am trying to make. 140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Ms.Cerllll: With respect to Bill 38, doyou think that construction, industry in wildlife management areas the authority that is given .to the Minister of Natural are openfor business under this legislation. I would� Resources (Mr. Enns) in Bill 38 is necessary to allow ask you, as a representative of Ducks Unlimited w the development of anything, in wildlife has put millions of dollars into wildlife management management, so that we can have the areas, can you support that? refurbishment of wetlands? Mr. Wishart: We would not be puttingpotentially a Mr. Wishart: Those are covered under the dime into these areas unless this amendment is regulations at the moment. This is what the attempt made is the point that I am trying to get across as seems to be to get those abilities to make those well. Even the maintenance of the works that we decisions out of the regulations and into the act. have done to date couldbe called into question,and

* (2140) I do not think that is acceptable. Ms.Cerllll: Do you not think though that we should Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions for be limiting development in wildlife management Mr. Wishart? areas, specifically to things that are going to help Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Having been born reclaim wetlands or other natural habitat and to and raised in the Red River Valley, especially the eliminate or limit other kind of industry or lower part of the Red River Valley, and having development? witnessed the recovery of the white-tailed deer Mr. Wishart: Certainly. We are not looking for population in the Red River Valley to the extent of industry commercial ventures to be allowable in where they are actually becoming somewhat of a these areas. That is not the intention. nuisance in some areas and having seen also the Ms.Cerllll: Mr. Wishart. thatis what is allowedby dramatic increase in waterfowland many other bird the current legislation that we have. species in the Red River Valley, that being, of course, seen as a significant flywayfor many of the Mr. Wishart: I think the minister is responsible to species. It is somewhat encouraging that one can the people; the government is responsible to the take one's grandson out to the aux Marais people. The minister should have a little bit of river-whichis justa very littlecreek which happens authority to make these kinds of decisions, and if he to store some water because of beaverdams and a makes wrong decisions he is accountable to the few other things and raises a significantnumber of people of Manitoba. ducks locally-to sit there with your grandson and Ms.Cerllll: Maybe you can clarify then for me, why actually witness the young deer fawns wandering do we need Bill 38? through the creek and also the young ducks and Ms. Wishart: As I have said, without these geese now hatching there, which never used to be amendments to bring the present regulations into the case before. the act, we feel the works that I have just described I wonder whether you could tell us of your plans to you, that we have accomplished, to restore 17 to have some involvement in the restoration ofsome existing WMAs could be called into question. of themarshes in that part of the province that I come Ms.Cerllll: I think that the point is to make the act from, the southeastern part of the province, that has more specific,and I would ask you, do you not think witnessed deterioration due to drainage which was that we need to limit industrial use and development done previously, and whether there is some local in wildlife management areas? support there to actually increase and enhance those kinds of projects. Mr.Wishart: I think that is laudable and we would agree with that, of course. Mr. Wishart: You are right. In localized areas we Ms. Cerllll: Is that specified in Bill 38? do see a resurgence of waterfowl populations and wildlife, butthe Red River Valley, as we see it today, Mr. Wishart: I do not know. You tell me. I am is really just a remnant of what marsh habitat used telling you why it is important to us that this to be in this area. We are far short of what amendment go through. historically we have seen in Manitoba or even the Ms.Cerllll: I would tell you, Mr. Wishart,the reason Red River Valley. In fact, the populations of we have all these people here tonight is because waterfowl in Manitoba this year, based on recent that is not specified in Bill 38; that right now CWS surveys, are 20 percent below numbers even June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 141

seen last year. We have had about 10 years of educating our young people in Manitoba to in fact drought. We are into our second decade of drought, encourage and enhance further their ability to and the waterfowl populations are not doing very accept the fact that we can live together with wildlife well as a result continent-wide. in this province? As far as the southeast part of the province, we Mr. Wishart: Well, the conservation concept is a have a number of projects in that part of the joint concept between ourselves and the province. We have a concept or proposal that was Department of Natural Resources. The staff who developed jointly with a task force of other agencies would be hired to man that facility and develop the within Manitoba to develop a fairly large potential programs that eventually would be a part of that marsh on the Rat River south of St. Malo. That facility, we think that in the neighbourhood of about project is still in the concept stage, but it provides for 11 full-time staff,new staff, on the order of 10 or 12 a lot of optimism that another Oak Hammock-type summer, casual staff,peo�·le to take the load when marsh could be established in that part of the the visitations are highest, and hopefully a core of province. It is an area with that type of productivity up to 50 volunteers who would be trained by the inherent in it. It is a very productive part of the permanent staff to assist in the interpretation province, and I think it could be quite an addition to programs that would be conductedthere. the province's marshes, if one day the money could Mr. Penner: I have one final question, Mr. be amassed to undertakethat project. Chairman, to the minister. Can you tell us how We have had some commitments from the federal many staff you currently employ at the Oak government, an interest in them in participating. Hammock Marsh to give guided tours or who would The North American Waterfowl Management Plan in fact be involved in the educational processat Oak potentially could provide up to half the funds to Hammock that will in fact be taken over by Ducks undertake a project there. Ducks Unlimited itself Unlimited and some of their staff? has committed up to $250,000 for that project if it Mr.Enns: We currently employ four seasonal staff were to proceed. We are still at the concept stage. to try to doour best with the 85,000 visitors who are There are lots of things to look at. coming to Oak Hammock. They are helped with Mr. Penner: The reason, Mr. Chairman, I raised additional volunteers, of course, and I do not have those issues and I asked those questions is an accurate number of thevolunteer forces that are because I believe it is extremely important to note there at any given time, but I appreciate that they that the population, in general, has increased in the are a big part, component of the current interpretive Red River Valley. I mean the human population has program that is beingcarried out at Oak Hammock. increased fairly dramatically in the Red River Valley. The departmentitself funds four seasonal people. The intensive farming that goes on in the Red River Ms.Cerllll: Mr. Wishart, what will DucksUnlimited Valley, I do not thinkwill be or could be surpassed do if this amendment to The Wildlife Act is defeated? anywhere else in the province, yet we have seen a dramatic increase in the waterfowl as well as other Mr. Wishart: What will we do? wildlife in that area. Ms. Cerllll: What will you do? I believe partially that is due to the conservation Mr. Wishart: I do not think there is much that we mentality that exists now to a much greater degree can do. We cannot undertakelegislation ourselves. than what used to exist. I think we rather did away This is something that legislators have to deal with. with some wildlife that we did not want to see around In what context do you mean, what would we do? for the longest period of time, and we are now very cognizant of the fact that wildlife in fact can live Ms. Cerllll: Well, what would happen to cohabitively with human population. development of interpretive programs at Oak Hammock Marsh involving Ducks Unlimited if this Because I believe it has largely been through amendment is not passed? education, whether through some formal education process or by learning as we go along, the question Mr. Wishart: You know, I guess that remains to be I have for you is: How many staff are you as Ducks seen. I cannot predict the future. We want to see Unlimited going to be employing at this new centre what the process is here. We hope that it is who will in fact be dedicated to training and successful, and we hope that our proposal, 142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

obviously, is accepted and can go ahead. That is the agreement with the Western Diversification our intention. Fund that ensured there was federal money coming to the province or coming to the project. * (2150)

MS.Cerllll: Could you repeat that, please? Can you clarify? Was that the plan or the proposal, or was it not? Mr. Wishart: I cannot visualize the future. We hope that things will proceed. What is the point in Mr.Wishart: I am not sure not being a party toand answering "what if'type questions? involved in that agreement what attachments were part of the agreement. You have a copyof it there, Ms. Cerllll: It is somewhat speculative, but there maybe you could- has been a Jot of involvement of Ducks Unlimited co-operating with the Department of Natural Ms.Cerllll: I will not be able to find, given the short Resources in this area, andI would hope that would notice. continue and there would be co-operation that would Mr. Wishart: Well, I do not have a copy of it either. include a variety of environment groups. I hopethat Ms.Cer llll: Who in Ducks Unlimited would be able Ducks Unlimited would still consider other to answer these questions? I am surprised. You interpretive plans. are here as the representative from Ducks

Mr.Wishart: . ..that we will andthis is not the only Unlimited, andyou are not aware of what is in the thing we would like to see happen as far as agreement. education. We are a national-international Mr.Wishart : I was not on the negotiating team. I company. We would like to see these kinds of am here representing Ducks Unlimited and Ducks programs developed all throughout North America Unlimited Manitoba operations to tell you why we where wetlands are under tremendous peril. We feel that thisamendment is important. That is why have organizations in Mexico, in New Zealand, in I am here. Australia, worldwide. We would think it is very appropriate that Ducks Unlimited includes us in its Ms.Cerllll : I am of the understanding the proposal programs wherever we are. that was discussed at the committee hearings on Thursday night is, in fact part of the agreement, Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions? alligators and all included, is part of the agreement Okay. Before we go on with the questions, could that was made with the Western Diversification you in fact wait to be recognized, both committee Fund. members and presenters, so that we can get it all Mr.Wishart: The plan that was cited out ofcontext on the Hansard, please? Thank you. at this committeehearing last week is In draft stage. Ms. Cerllll: Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of It is a draft interpretive plan; it is still not completed. the agreement between Ducks Unlimited, the A lot of the information in that plan are ideas. It is a department and the Western Diversification Fund in starting point for the staff once they are hired to front of me. I asked for that in Question Period develop the details of that plan. recently. -(interjection)- Oh, here we go. Thank you. I understand that there are a number of conditions Po int of Or d er and-well, there is an agreement between Ducks Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, perhaps just on a point of Unlimited based on money coming from the order for clarification. The information that Ms. Western Diversification Fund. Can you clarify for Cerilli is alluding to was referred to last night in the us, Mr. Wishart, the nature of the plan that was or presentations, part of the information that was the proposal that was the basis for the funding or the attached to material that was obtained, that was agreement with the Western Diversification Fund? delivered to the Western Diversification Fund in Mr. Wishart: The basis for-<:ouldyou repeat that. terms of general information as to the application for I am sorry. the proponents request for funding. Ms. Cerllll: What plan or what proposal ? The I am familiar with the agreement. I signed the minister said, after the committee hearing last agreement on behalf of the Province of Manitoba, Thursday, that the proposal that was highlighted in and I want to assure committee members that none the newspaper over the weekend was just a of that material has any standing of any sort within proposal and was not the proposal that was part of the contract that we have entered into with Ducks June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 143

Unlimited Canada. It was first draft, second draft Wishart, I would-firstof ali i am a farmer and I take proposals on the part of some concepts of what a bit of exception to the comments that seem to say might be entertained in a future interpretive centre, that farmers are quietly destroying the land while city including exhibits, but has absolutely no binding people do not know what is going on. I would like contractual standing with respect to the contract that to put on the record that, yes, there has been a lot Ms. Cerilli and Mr. Edwards now have and I invite of land taken up for farming but there are also a lot them to examine the contents of that agreement. I of farmers who are concerned about the appreciate that they have only received that environment and also involved in wildlife agreement now, but for the record, I want to make management and preservingthe environment. It is that very clear. not only farmers whoare destroying it. I just wanted *** to get that comment on the record. Mr. Wishart: I do not think I said that, but I agree Ms. Cerilli: Well, part ofthe problem then with the project is we have building permits that have been with your comments. issued. We have had a clean environment Ms.Wowchuk: It is implied. I just wanted a bit of commission that has issued a licence. We are not clarification, Mr. Wishart. Ducks Unlimited has sure what we are building. We do not know if it operated in Manitoba, as you said, for 53 years, has is-howmuch of the marsh it is going to impact on. had many projects, has negotiated all these projects I would ask you, Mr. Wishart, what is the proposal with government and has always been able to come that has been approved by the Department of up with agreements on where the projectswould be, Natural Resources and by the Western and have been able to negotiate land. I donot quite Diversification Fund? understand why we have to have a change in Mr. Wishart: There is a draft interpretive plan. regulation now, or a change in the act to proceed What we are building is a building to house the with this project. H you have been able to work with conservation centre aspect of that interpretive plan. the Manitoba government and other governments There was a draftinterpretive plan for the marsh, the all these years, it does not make any sense that you wildlife management area, that was developed by should now not be able to work with governmentand Department of Natural Resources staff that is the need new amendments to proceed. basis for the outdoor interpretive programs thatwill Mr. Chairman: be established at the marsh. There is a presenter Was there a questionthere? from Ducks Unlimited, the interim director of the Ms. Wowchuck: No, it was just a comment. I will centre, who would be very prepared to tell you all of have my question now. My question is with offices. the details of what that draft plan is, both for the You are planning to build office buildings and have building andfor the WMA. quite a few jobs out there. I want to ask you why Ms. Cerllll: So the nature or the extent of you feel it is necessary to have your office buildings development at the marsh is still open for public right on the marsh when you have had your offices input? here in Winnipeg? If you want them out in the rural area, which I am not opposed to, I am quite in favour Mr. Wishart: It is in draft stage. I think we will be looking for input from a variety of informed sources. of jobs in the rural area, why dothe jobs have to be located right on the marsh? Can they not be located A (2200) in a town nearby? Ms. Cerllll: So what is this structure? How do Mr. Wishart: We have many offices in the rural other environmental groups or individuals make setting. I mentioned that we had 1 0 offices in their concernsknown with their vision of interpretive Manitoba, and most of those are in communities like programs for Oak Hammock Marsh? Virden and Brandon and around the province, The Mr. Wishart: Once the interpretive plan is Pas. I think you got a very good answer from Dr. completed it will be a public document and there will Baldwin about the reasons why we would like to be all kinds of opportunities for making ideas and have, and need to have, the office or administrative reactions known at that time. component of Ducks Unlimited as attached and an Ms. Wowchuk: If I could just make a couple of integral part of the conservation-educationcentre . I comments. As I look at your presentation, Mr. think that has been answered many times. 144 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Ms. Wowchuk: My question is: Could you not border unless they are matched equally by a have an interpretive centre and protect the marsh non-federal government entity, either a state and have everything else there without having the government and a private organization. At the office building there? Is it vital to your operation to moment, it is primarily Ducks Unlimited Inc. dollars have the officesthere, or could they be located in a or our DU American counterpart who is undertaking nearby community but not in the marsh area? that matching dollar activity. So those DU Inc. dollars before they come across the border are Mr. Wishart: Anything is possible if there is enough being matched by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services money and enough resources. Using donated dollars. That is the only way that they can come dollars, we want to use them as efficientlyand wisely across. as possible. There is a tremendous cost savingby having the facilities connectedand together-on the Mr. Laurendeau: So these are American tax order of $250,000 of savings by having these dollars that are coming up here that are being facilities together. matched with your funds that you are raising then? Ms.Wowchuk: Just one further question, andthat Mr. Wishart: That is where we come up with the is related to the donated dollars. These dollars $1 .5 billion program over the next decade; 75 come from throughout the province, as you had percent of those dollars are U.S. dollars. indicated, and it is the same question that I asked Mr.Laurendeau: Thank you. the previous presenter. Do you have any concerns that Ducks Unlimited will not carry on with wildlife Mr.Chairman: Are there any other questions? habitats projects throughout the province? As you Ms.Wowchuk: Yes, just in another area of Ducks said, you only have limited dollars. Are other Unlimited, you mentioned fisheries. In my projects going to suffer because of concentrating all constituency, a large amount of the populationthat your effortsinto onecentre? Is that a concernat all depends on fisheries,and there is some concern on to you? lake Winnipegosisabout a number of smaller areas Mr. Wishart: It is a good question, but it is not a that have been taken over by Ducks Unlimited or concern. It is not a realistic fear. We have, as I wherethere aredams built for Ducks Unlimited. As mentioned, offices-we just opened up four new a result, some of the spawning grounds are not as small suboffices in small rural communities to be effective as they used to be. Are you aware ofthis able to deliver the Manitoba Prairie Care program concernand are you addressing it? right at the farmgate. We have a million dollar Mr. Wishart: We have developed many budget at The Pas. We have major offices in co-operative projects with the department of Dauphin and Brandon. We have a tremendous Fisheries all around the major lakes in Manitoba, habitat program that is not going to suffer; in fact, it and actually we are improving these areas as is expanding. Themoney that we raise in the United spawning areas. We are attempting in these marsh States to come up to Canada is not coming up as its developments t�and one of the activities we are own dollars. It is actually levering as many dollars trying to do is keep carp, which are an introduced from the U.S. fish and wildlife service to implement European species, out of these marshes. They are the North American plan. So our dollars are actually in the big lakes now. They come to spawn in the doubling as they come across the border to marshes peripheral to the big lakes, and what they implement this habitat program primarily in do is they rout around in the marshes; they uproot southwestern Manitoba, but it allows us to use our the aquatic vegetation; they disturb the sediments base budget Ducks Unlimited dollars in The Pas and and make it very unproductive for other fish, for all the Dauphin area andthe Interlake. wildlife. Mr. Laurendeau: I just have a question about that These carp do provide some economic income to last comment you made about the doubling effect fishermen in some areas. The carp, as they spawn, on the dollar. Could you please go a little deeper are harvestedand primarily used for pet food, I think, into that? but on these peripheral marshes we are attempting Mr. Wishart: The monies available from the U.S. to keep carp out. In some cases, there are fish ways sources for the North American plan in Canada or temporal management of the wetlands to allow under U.S. legislation cannot come across the some of the more economically important species June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 145

like walleye and pike into the marshes at certain the Western Diversification Fund all of these things specific times. in the plan or the proposal are a requirement for the westerndiversification funds. The provincial government is also using these managed marshes to introduce walleye fry into Mr.Wishart: That is not my understanding. The these areas and then flush them out with the water response to the Bovey report provided information control that we do or net them out and release them to try and provide a little bit more information about into the big lakes. So I think it is a fairly productive what was being proposed and Mr. Bovey in his working relationship that we have, and I think you report asked to see some of this information and will find the supportof the fishermen in Manitoba for pointed out that he was not aware of it. So there these projects. was a formal response to the Bovey report, a very long document-! am not sure if you have that or Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Could we try to not-with some attachments, one of which was the keep our questions relevant to Bill 38, so in fact we draftInterpretive plan as it was at that point. It is not can hear as many presenters as possible. an attachment to the agreement, as I understand Ms.Wowchuk: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but if we with the Western Diversification Fund; it is a are hearing a presentation on Ducks Unlimited's response to the Bovey report. activities, are not their activities related to Natural Ms. Cerllll: So we would understandthen that, as Resources relevant, ifit is wildlife management? I said earlier, plans for the marsh are still open. We Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, if I can be of any help. I do not know for sure what kind of interpretive have no objections if members of the committee centre/museums that Ducks Unlimited is planning wish to take this opportunityto question Dr. Wishart for the area. on the various activities, worthwhile activities, that Mr. Wishart: There is a whole presentation on this his organization carries on in the province of topic, if you would be able to wait for it. Manitoba. It may not be particularly germane to Bill 38, but I have no objections If committeewishes to. Po i nt of Or der * (221 0) Mr.Enns: Just on a pointof order, because I think Mr. Chairman: Is this the wish of the committee? it is importantfor committeememb ers to realize that Floor Comment: Agreed. very precise detailed information that was Ms. Wowchuk: If the Chairman feels it is not presented to and approved and licensed by the relevant to the committee, then I will pass that Environment department is what is being opportunity now and perhaps raise itatanothertime, considered by the proponents, boththe Department but I will perhaps have a discussion with Mr. Wishart of Natural Resourcesand Ducks Unlimited Canada, on a couple of spawning grounds on Lake to build at Oak Hammock. Winnipegosis that are of concern. What the honourable member, or Ms. Cerilli, is Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions? now trying to divine is what the nature of the interpretive and education program will be. That will Ms. Cerllll: I do have a number of questions, but I be decided by the management board, as I indicated would like to stay on the issue of the agreement to her in the House under questioning, by a between Ducks Unlimited and the Western management board that is just being set up, that will Diversification Fund. I have, I think, located the in fact develop and no doubt take advantage of any section that does indicate that the western form of public, you know, information gathering as diversification fundsare tied to the agreement that to the kind of programming that will take place in the is known as the response to the Bovey report, and interpretive centre. I think it is in Section 8 that refers to the entire contract, which outlines a number of attachments At issue is not what has been licensed by the and one of the attachments is Section E, which Clean Environment Commission and what it is that outlines the wetland exhibit hall, which includes the the partners, Ducks Unlimited Canada and the television monitoring, closed circuit television and Department of Natural Resources of Manitoba are, Part 6, which includes the courtyard, which has the in fact, licensed to build at Oak Hammock. infamous alligator enclosure. So there seems to be Mr. Chairman: The minister doesnot have a point a dispute here. It seems that in the agreement with of order. It is a dispute over the facts. 146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

*** many draft stages at this point. It is not a completed · document but it has been an evolving document. Ms. Cerllll: I want to go back to a point that was raised earlier with respect to the fundingthat Ducks Ms.Cerlll l: Can you give us a date of when Ducks Unlimited receives. Can you give an explanation of Unlimited and Natural Resources first started to talk where Ducks Unlimited receives its funding? The about an office building and an interpretive centre previous presenter said that some 50 percent was together at Oak Hammock Marsh? related to hunting purposes. Can you clarify this for Mr.Wishart: I do not recall the exact date, but it is us? several years ago. Mr. Wishart: I do not think he said that at all. Our Mr.Chairman: Are there any other questions? funds are raised through volunteer committees that sponsor events at communities all over North Ms.Cer llll: I noticed in your reportyou said that the America. These funds are raised by private plan for Oak Hammock Marsh was in keeping with individuals. That is where our money comes from, the principles of sustainable development. I fail to see that. I fail to see putting an office building not from some lobby group or group of hunters. It how comes from individuals all over North America, in a wildlife management area is in keeping with several hundred thousand of them. principles of sustainable development. Can you explain to the committee how this is so? Mr.Chairman: Do we have any more questions? Mr.Wishart: What I said in the report is the 1,180 Ms.Cer llll: One of the concerns from people who projects that we have in Manitoba and the 5,000 had been involved with the management of Oak projects that we have across Canada, habitat Hammock Marsh, a number of other projects-thatwas the context in which I was talking environmentalists are concerned that they have about the sustainable development examples that been excluded from the development of this we have done for the last 50 years. Did I proposal. Can you explain who has been on the misunderstand your question? That is what I said committee that has designed the plan or the in the paper. proposal for the interpretive programs at Oak Hammock Marsh? Ms.Cer llll: Clarifythat for me again. Mr. Wishart: As I said, there is a whole Mr. Wishart: The context in which I made that presentation about that, but I do not think anybody statement was the 1 , 180 projects that wedeveloped has been excluded. I think a lot of people-and a in Manitoba in the last decade. The Oak Hammock real effort has been made to involve people, tell Marsh project is one of those over a thousand people about what was intended for that area and projects. It is, I think, a tremendous example of try to get input. So I findit surprising that peoplefeel sustainable development. It is a restored area that that they are excluded when, I think, night afternight was drained and an attempt to put very marginal there were presentations made to every imaginable land into agriculture that could not sustain group that was interested in listening around the agriculture. province. .. (2220) Ms.Cer llll: Therehas been, as I understand it, an Ms.Cerll ll: I realize that Ducks Unlimited has put Oak HammockMarsh management committeethat a lot of money into wildlife management areas and, did involve a number of other environmental groups as I understandit, there have been some successes and that they were not involved in the development and there have been some failures. I guess the of the proposal for the expansion at Oak Hammock question related to this would be, what kind of Marsh but they had been involved up to that point in research or programs are going to be done at Oak a very active way with any programming that was Hammock Marsh in the office building that cannot done at the marsh. be done in the city? What kind of research or I would ·Jike to ask, when was the plan that we programs are going to be done in the marsh that are have been dealing with most recently first going to be new? conceived? Mr. Wishart: You are asking the same question, I Mr.Wishart: This specific plan has been evolving think, that has been answered, why the office for, I believe, about a year and in draft stages, very building there and not in the city? June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 147

Ms.Cer llll: More specifically, what kind of research I have not been told how many more educational, is going to be done that would require 140 staff, interpretive or science staff are going to be working including clerical staff, to be housed in an office in the marsh. building in the marsh? What is it going to be about Mr. Wishart: I did tell you the number of staff to the programs or the research that require it to be involved in the interpretive program. Research Is in the marsh? not what is needed in this marsh. Information and Mr. Wishart: I do not think it was ever stated that interpretation of what is there and telling people there would be research programs and that used as about marshes and the importance of them, the reason why the complex is being proposed for information that is already known through years of Oak Hammock. We are talking about a research by all kinds of facilitie&-it is not research combination of resources, the staff and that is going to reverse the loss of wetlands. That infrastructure, that the officepart of the complex can is not what Is needed. It is Interpretation and provide services to enhance the efficiency of the education. educational partof the facility. Ms.Cerll ll: I think that thereare a number of people Ms. Cerllll: How many staff that are going to be who are sitting behind you who would take issue working at the marsh are going to be involved in with that, who would think that there is not enough research that would require them to get their hands research that has been done in wetlands. dirty and be in the marsh or be involved in I would ask you, what research has Ducks interpretive programs with the public that would Unlimited done in Oak Hammock Marsh in the require them to be in the marsh? number of years that it has been there to become Mr. Wishart: That is not the only aspect of the staff aware of the relationship between the number of that we have there. We have computer facilities, species that are there, the relationship that those accounting facilities, infrastructure that can supply species have with the natural habitat that they live very important services to make this conservation In? education centre work efficiently. Mr.Wishart: Ducks Unlimited has had a research Ms.Cer llll: Mr. Wishart, that is precisely, I think, the and evaluation staffand program since the 1970s. point that I and a number of other people are trying There has just been an announcement in the last to make. The only staff necessary to be in the few months announcing the International Waterfowl marsh are staff that are directly involved in and Wetlands Research Institute, which is an interpretive programs or research In the natural international organization involving existing and habitat. new staff and new facilities throughoutMexico, the Mr. Wishart: I do not thinkyou have heard what I United States and Canada. have said. It is the infrastructure and the There is a tremendous initiative not only in administrative facilities that we can provide to education in Ducks Unlimited, but in wetland support the education staff who are going to be in research as well, wetland and wildlife research, not that facility. Twenty percent of those staff are necessarily specifically only in Oak Hammock agrologists, professional biologists. Another Marsh, but at facilities either permanent or transitory proportionof those staff are professional engineers facilities across North America and Mexico. who can provide servicesand information and help, Ms. Cerllll: Does Ducks Unlimited consider itself provide partof the program that can be interpreted an environmental organization? in that area. Mr.Wishart : Yes. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Wishart, you can sell me on this if you can tell me that there is going to be a lab, that Ms. Cerllll: Has it been involved with-it has a lot there are going to be more programs that are going of money-funding any of the groups or individuals to do research in natural habitat, where there is who made presentations at Clean Environment going to be more done in the marsh that would Commission hearings? require scientists to be at the marsh than having the Mr. Wishart: I am not aware of that. facility in Winnipeg. Ms. Cerllll: Has it taken a position on any other I have not heard yet that there are going to be environmental issues that are in the news or have more staff doing that kind of work in the marsh, and been the attention of other environment groups? 148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Mr. Wishart: I am not aware about being in the future invest as much time and resources and news. That is not our objective, to be in the news. energy restoring marshes that should not be lost in What we do do is we, on a regular basis, interact the first place. with departments, including the gas pipeline Ms. Cerllll: Have you done research at other agencies, the hydro agencies responsible for centres that shows that there is a relationship putting transmission lines and gas pipelines across betweenthe kinds of programs that you are wanting the province. On a regular basis we review to have at Oak Hammock Marsh and the objective proposals from these people and express opinions that you say thatyou have? on the applicability of what they are proposing. Mr. Wishart: A review committee has visited a Ms. Cerllll: Has Ducks Unlimited made number of educational environmental interpretation presentations at any Clean Environment centres around Canada, and that is the basis for Commission hearings in the last number ofyears? what we have as a draft plan at this stage, a learning Mr. Wishart: We regulurly make briefs and have process, what we have learned from the successes made briefs to government committees and and failures at other institutions, yes. hearings, some of the committees that have sat, Mr.Chalrman: Are there any other questions? Mr. deliberating over establishing policies on water, Rose, did you have a question? wildlife, on a regular basis. * (2230) Ms.Cer llll: Can you be a bit more specific and give Mr. Wishart, I thank you very much for your me an idea of what kindof public hearings oron what kinds of issues Ducks Unlimited has participatedin, presentation. We have two more presenters who environment impact assessments or those kindsof will not be able to come back. There is a Mr. Steve o hearings? Lytwyn, No. 30. Mr. Lytwyn, could y u come forward, please. There is one more, and that is Mr. Mr. Wishart: Issues related to wetlands and David Punter, Manitoba Environmental Council, No. wildlife. We have made our views known on a 10. variety of environmental development questions. Mr. Steven Lytwyn {Manitoba Cattle Producers Mr.Chairman: Are there any other questions? Association): Goodevening. Ms.Cer llll: I was asking questions of the previous Mr. Chairman: Mr. Lytwyn does not have presenter about Ducks Unlimited's plans in putting a-pardon me, he doesha ve. It is beingcirculated so much money Into Oak Hammock Marsh with this now. Mr. Lytwyn, you can proceed. office complex and interpretive centre. Why is not Mr. Lytwyn: Thank you. The Manitoba Cattle the money being spread over a larger number of Producers Association, which represents over wetlands in Manitoba? 12,000 producersis in supportof 8111 38, The Wildlife Mr. Wishart: I think that the point of my whole Amendment Act. We are interested in the use of presentation is just to try to convince you that is wildlife management areas for the time-controlled exactly what we are doing. We have a $6 million to haying and grazing management for cattle. This $7 million budget annually that is devoted entirely to holistic approach would be to the benefit of habitat projects throughout the province, and have waterfowl, upland game, and wild ungulates. done so for 50 years. Cattlesales are the secondlargest contributors to Ms.Cerll ll: So you are sayingthat the money that the agricultural revenue in Manitoba and inject over is going into the office building is being better spent $285 million directly and a further $51 million of on an office building rather than into a variety of value-added spinoffs into the provincial economy. other marshes, or not even marshes, areas that are Over 17,000 people depend directly on the cattle dried up, that could be redeveloped. You are saying industry for their livelihood or employment. that it is better foran organization like yourself to put Expansion can still occur in Manitoba's livestock money into this kind of a building rather than into the industry without impacting on the price paid to actual refurbishment of wildernessareas . producers. Mr. Wishart: I think we are doing both. We are Livestock is one of Manitoba's major net exporting trying to develop an educational program that will industries. Since Manitoba cattle producers are help us secure wetlands sowe will not have to in the competing on a global market, we must look at every June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 149

aspect of our operations and strive to become as industry is offering a hand in the management of competitive as possible. Grazing and haying of wildlife resources of Manitoba. Thank you. Crown lands and wildlife management areas Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Lytwyn, thank you very much provide us with the opportunities to become more for your presentation. It is importantthat the people efficient. of Manitoba realize how importantthe cattlemen are It seems that today's society has reached a for the Interlake area and how they have improved consensus that agriculture in general is bad for the grazing area for the elk and the deer and the wildlife. This, of course, is an untruth. The ranching other populations up there in the North. Without industry of Manitoba has kept marginal lands in having you up there, I think there would have been forages and left wetlands alone because of the a lot of different things happening that would not benefits they supply to ranch operations. The have occurredtoda y. cost-benefit relationshipfor land improvements are Were there a lot of concerns brought forward marginal at best. Undoubtedly it is apparent that when some of the ministers in the past have wildlife benefit and thrive on Manitoba ranches. allocated some of the fields to hay and to grazing? Geese, deer, elk are spending more time grazing on ranch land than in wildlife habitats. Mr. Lytwyn: I am not personally aware of any problems although I am sure that abuse could Cattleprovide the same balance as buffalodid in happen and has to be watched by all the their ecosystem over 100 years ago. departments. Time-controlled grazing or holistic range management and haying provide young nutritious Mr. Laurendeau: Under the regulations of today, plants for wildlife consumption. Timingis essential that are in the act today, the minister has the for successful grazing and haying management. authority, which could be challenged, to allow you Ground nesting birds must be allowed ample time to have these lands, I understand, for grazing. This in the spring and early summer for hatching and is why Bill 38 is being brought forward. I guess this rearing of young offspring. Past this point, grazing is the reason you are supporting Bill 38. and haying should be allowed. Mr.Lytwyn: That is correct. Cattle bring with them their own abilities to ward Mr. Laurendeau: Thank you. off predators which again is to the benefit of upland game, fowl and wild ungulates. Research in North Ms. Cerllll: I would like you to explain a little bit Dakota at the Audubon Wildlife Refuge done by the more, in more detail, how this is a holistic approach United States Fish and Wildlife Service has that would benefit waterfowl, upland game and consistently documented year after year that wildlife. waterfowl populations increased with Mr.Lytwyn: I am sorry, could you repeat that? time-controlled grazing. They have also proven Ms. Cerllll: How is having cattle grazing in these that upland game thrive in the same situation. areas a holisticapproach? You have used that term Tame forage stands have becomeone of the major a food sources for elk and deer. This is attributed to number of times in the brief. I would like you to explain more the relationship between having cattle larger populations for both species. Reproduction and survival rates have both increased because of grazing in these areas and- improved quality of their diet. Mr. Lytwyn: At one time there were approximately If the public is truly dedicated to the long-term 60 million buffalo wandering North America and sustainability of Manitoba's wildlife resource, we through interference by civilization those numbers must attempt to mimic their environment prior to the were drastically changed. That began to change introductionof civilization. It is almost impossible to again as the beef industry increased its numbers of copy the prairie fires that removed underused cattle and basically there is a balance now, basically forages and shrubbery, but we can easily duplicate the same number of cattle and buffalo. So we feel the buffalo by supplementing cattle in their place. that is as close as we can get to helping Mother During this discussion, we must never lose sight of Nature out as well as feed North Americans and what is going to be beneficial for the wildlife. Only make a living. through a holistic approach can we hope to achieve Ms.Ce rllll: I am trying toget a betterunderstanding long-term sustainability. The Manitoba cattle of how that relates to waterfowl. 150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Mr.Lytwyn: Well, I think civilization, if you want to type of thing just to make sure something bad is not be technical, is harmful to wildlife. Just the very fact being done. But as far as what Ducks Unlimited is that we are increasing in numbers year by year is doing, I guess, I do not see it as a building or as an harmful to all thewildlife . At least some sectors of office complex. I just see it as basically a system of the agriculture industryare not harming wildlife; we delivering-well, of getting people exposed to an are actually increasing populations where cities are area and doing the least amount of damage while sprawling and swallowing up the natural doing it. Those people, once they have had some environment. exposure, it is going to help wildlife tremendously Ms.Cerll ll: No furtherquestions, that is fine. throughout the province not just in the Oak Hammock area. Mr.Lytwyn: I am just glad it is twentyto 11. I know Mr. Chalnnan: Are there any other questions? that you have to quit at 11. Thank you, Mr. Lytwyn. Mr. Chalnnan: Are there any other questions for Would Mr. Dave Punter step forward please, that Mr. Lytwyn? Order, please. is Manitoba Environmental Council, No. 10. The * (2240) brief is being passed around. Mr.Enns: Just one question. I am aware that The Is there a will by the committee to go past eleven Wildlife Act as it is structured is written in a o'clock? Agreed? prohibitive sense. There shall be no grazing, there Some Honourable Members: Agreed. shall be no this, there shall be none ofthat activity. Ms.Cer llll: Why do we not hearthis brief and then I think to underline what I believe the cattle decide? producers' concerns are: Particularly, it is the Mr.Chalnn an: Order, please. I asked a question discretion given to the department, to the here. Is it the will of the committee to proceed past minister-notwithstanding those clauses in the eleven o'clock? act-that allows under controlled circumstances some grazing,some haying to take place. It is the Some Honourable Members: Agreed. kind of discretion that Ministers of Natural Ms. Cerllll: I would like to have a more specific Resources since 1961 , when the first wildlife agreement than than. management act was passed, was created in Mr. Chalnnan: Let me hear from the committee Manitoba that usedthat discretionary authority to then. Would you put somethingforward , what time provide that grazing. It can always be argued that you do wish to proceed to? it ought not to be used. I know that always occasioned debate within wildlife managers, but I Ms. Cerllll: I propose that we hear the brief from think theposition ofthe cattle producersof Manitoba theManitoba Environment Council, and thenwe will is that at leastth eir opportunity, and their assurance decide how much longer we want to sit. that the department continues, to have that right be Mr. Chairman: Just as a point here, the fact is if maintained. Is that right? this brief in fact goes past 11, we have been authorized until eleven o'clock. Now what do you Mr. Lytwyn: Yes, that was what I agreed. wish? Ms.Cer llll: Just to clarify. Thereason I was asking Mr. Enns: We accept Ms. Cerilli's amendment to the question was to see if there is some ecological that, thatwe hear the brief and then decide. relationship between having some grazing in wildlife management areas and development of natural Mr. Chalnnan: Proceed. habitat. I was asking the question because I could Mr. Dave Punter (Manitoba Environment learn something, legitimately. I would think that Council): Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. there is a dramatic difference between having some Chairman. I bring you a brief from the Manitoba land used in Crown land or wildlife management Environmental Council concerningBill 38, a subject area for cattle grazing and to have a corporation which seems to have been getting rather short shrift. have its office building in a wildlife management The Manitoba Environmental Council is area. Would you agree with me? extremely concerned about some of these proposed Mr.Lytwyn: I would just like to say that I am glad amendments to TheWildlife Act. Bill 38 represents that there are a lot of people concerned about this a serious, probably unprecedented weakening of June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151

The Wildlife Act, and its passage in the present form variance with the purpose for which an area was would threaten the future for all Manitoba's wildlife designated ifhe considered them appropriate. management areas. For example, Regulation 46/90, which has been (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, ActingChairman, in the mentioned before, presently prohibits inter alia, Chair) haying, grazing, clearing, bulldozing, burning, fencing, logging, cultivation, mineral exploration and Specifically the wording of the proposed extraction, application of insecticides or herbicides, subsection 2(1) requires only that the and construction or occupation of a building in a Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council be satisfied that the wildlife management area. If these amendments wildlife resource would be better managed in order pass, a minister could authorize extraction of gravel, to designate areas of the province. This is weaker logging, haying, or even construction of a highrise than the existing wording in that it removes any need in a wildlife management area, if he or she for cabinet to apply objective standards to the considered it appropriate. decision. It is important that governments and ministers be subject to the law as well as ordinary Moreover, Mr. Acting Chairman, this could be citizens. These amendments would remove the done in response to a private request without checks and balances that good legislation should reference to cabinet and with little or no public provide by making it impossible for courts to scrutiny. It is the position of council that once an overrule any government action relating to wildlife area is designated on the authority of the Crown, areas, no matter how bad by objective or expert i.e., by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, for a judgment, as long as that action is to the satisfaction particularpurpose that no lesser entity, for example of the cabinet, or, in the case of Section 3(1 ), of the a minister, should have the power to authorize uses minister. or activities, including the construction of buildings, that are inconsistent with that purpose. Anyone familiar with the history of wildlife and ecosystem conservation knows that the main • (2250) threats to conservationof natural areas have come Council finds it anomalous that a minister-who, at least as often from bad planning or political as recently as last year made a Regulation 46/90, pressures as from external or nongovernment gazetted the 1Oth of March 1990, that no person activities. This situation is not unique to Manitoba shall, in a wildlife management area, among other nor to this government, but one does not have to things construct, place, occupy or use a building look far to see examples of such threats here. structure or tent-now proposes that the act be Cabinets are not noted for their expertise in amended to allow him to make regulations to biological matters, and may be easily satisfied if the authorize the construction, operation and political pressures are sufficiently strong. It is maintenance of any building, structure or thing in a therefore very importantthat Sections 2 and 3 of the wildlife management area. • present Wildlife Act be retained. There is a need to Council is disturbed that this abrupt reversal of consider the designation of areas within a broader policy is apparently the response to the threat of definition of wildlife as well as the overall present legal challenge to the proposal by Ducks Unlimited and future needs of the province. Without such a and Manitoba Natural Resources to construct an rider, areas may be designated for reasons that are office complex and conservation centre in Oak unduly specific or parochial. Hammock Marsh Wildlife Management Area, to which the council's objections are already on record. The council considers the proposed subsection 3(1) objectionable on a number of grounds. Under Does the present minister really wish to confer Sections 89 and 90 of The Wildlife Act, the such sweeping powers on his successors simply to Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council and the minister gain a present advantage? And I might mention, as respectively, may make such regulations as are an aside, that when Mr. Enns signed the regulation ancillary to, and not inconsistent with, the intent of in question he, or his department,had already been the act. This proposed subsection, together with negotiating with Ducks Unlimited for several Section 5 of the Bill would give significant new months. Was he forgetful? Was he poorly briefed powers to the minister alone, such that he could by his staff? Did he simply not read or think about authorize uses and activities that might be totally at what he was signing then? 152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Given the new powers noted above, council 30, Section 6(1 ), Section 6(3) and Section 7 of Bill respectfully askedthe Minister of Natural Resources 38. to define for the public, as precisely as he can, what In summary, we recommend that Bill 38 be he understands to be the purpose and function of a amended as follows beforeits passage: wildlife management area as designated under (1) that Sections 2 and 3 of the present Wildlife Section 2(2) of Bill 38. Act be retained, i.e., that Section 2 of Bill 38 be Since the act has been openedto amendments, amendedto read Sections4 and 5 are repealed; and this bill, clearly in the view of council needs (2) that subsections2(1 ), 3(1 ), 3(2), 5 and 6(2) be further amendment before it is passed, council deleted from Bill 38; wishes to suggest two additional amendments which could greatly improve The Wildlife Act. (3) that a statement of purpose be added as a preamble or early sectionof the act; and The first of these is that unlike some other (4) thatwildiHe be givena broader definition more Manitoba laws, for example The Endangered in keeping with current usage. Species Act andThe Ecological ReservesAct, both of which have been put into effect relatively recently, In conclusion, council considers that this bill as The WildiHe Act contains no specHic statement of proposed represents to threat that goes far beyond purpose either in preamble or in later text. the proposal for Oak Hammock Marsh that it is Interpretation of theact would be a gooddeal easier apparently intended to legalize. We urge you to turn it into a positive measure for the wildlife of this H itsintent were clearly stated. province by making the above amendments. If at However, based on the present Section 2, its least recommendations 1 and 2 cannot be purpose is presumed to be to promote the effective accepted, the bill should be defeated as it would do management, conservation, and enhancement of far more harm than good. Thank you, Mr. Acting the wildiHe resource of this province, which brings Chairman. us to our second point. Theact takes an extremely The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Thank narrow view of wildiHe. By defining wildiHe as a you, Mr. Punter, I believe there are a number of vertebrateanimal of any species or type that is wild questionsfor you. by nature in the province, but doesnot include fish, Order,please. I would like to advise the audience it confines itself to mammals, birds, amphibians and thatthere will be no applause allowed, or I will have reptiles. It ignores fish, invertebrates, plants and to have the room cleared,and it is as simple as that. micro-organisms, all of which occur in the wild, undoubtedlyhave life, and play integral rolesin the Mr. Punter, if you will just wait. I believewe have ecosystems upon which the vertebrates depend for some questions. their existence. Mr.Enns: Mr. Punter, the recentregulations that I This narrow approach is at variance with the caused to be gazetted and entered into that has been referred to in your brief, and I must say by Wildlife Policy for Canada prepared by a task force others, I do wish to take a moment and clear up. I struck by the 1987 Federal-Provincial Territorial would like to be charitable andnot suggest that you Wildlife Conference and adopted by the Wildlife have any other motives for suggesting that the Ministers' Council of Canada, of which our present action on the partof this minister is any differentfrom minister was a member, in September 1990,which any other ministers, certainlysince the IHetime of the states as its Principle No. 1.1 : Governmentsshould Environment AdvisoryCouncil. broaden their definitions of wildlife to include any That is the sectionthat deals with, you correctly species of wild organism. Moreover, this is likely to stated, the prohibition clause. No person shall encourage a correspondingly narrow focus in grade, gravel, install or modify, bulldoze, grazing, management and to work against the ecosystem haying, fencing, and all that. Ofco �r�e, in the sa�e approach that is increasingly gaining favour among gazette then there is the perm1ss1ve clause 1n wildlife managers. Section 10, except that the minister may grant a The remaining sections of this bill, except 2 and permit to a person authorizing any activity that is 6(2) appear to be innocuous or beneficial. Council otherwiseprohibited in this action. That is my action supports the Section 3, thatwhich amends Section that you have referred to, somewhat disparagingly I June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 153

might say, Dr. Punter, as though this was a regulation on March 3 of last year, '90? It is made departure on the part of action of previous ministers. public. All regulations are made public. I wish to read to you the regulation that was Furthermore,your organization knows that it is the passed by Mr. Mackling of the administration of a regulations that are the operative part of any act. previous government, that of Mr. Ed Schreyer. It The act is a general statement of principle, the says the same thing. Subject to Section 3(3), no regulations are the power in any act. That is also person shall participate in or undertake the same known by your organization. It cannot be claimed, prohibitive sections-no haying, no grazing, no in my judgment, fairly and accurately by a unnatural waterways, no bridging, no cultivation, no spokesperson for your organization, that the herbicides, no occupying, except, of course, then regulations that were good enough for Mr. Mackling, his clause: notwithstanding anything contained in good enough for Mr. Evans, good enough for Mr. this regulation, the minister may grant, subject to Plohman are somehow all of a suddeninjurious and such terms and conditions, he may prescribe a outrageous on the part of this little Minister of Natural permit to undertakecert ain activities across, within, Resources. or into any wildlife management area. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): There Now I can read you that same regulation passed was no question there, I take it. by successive predecessors of mine of different Mr. Punter: May I respond? The Manitoba administrations- Environmental Council is not especially well The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, supplied with staff. It operates very largely on a please. I would like to remind the honourable volunteer basis, and it is not in a position to follow in member we were going to try and keep our brief detail every regulation which is passed by every remarks short, and I hope the honourable minister Minister of Natural Resources, or any other is coming to a question. department. Mr. Enos: I am indeed coming to a question, Mr. In this particularinstance, I became aware of that Acting Chairman, and I, quite frankly, do not need regulation only when I made a comparison between your help at this moment. the bill that we are considering and the existing Wildlife Act. Had I known about the other events • (2300) previously, it might well be that I would have raised The fact is that this has beenpointed out as some it with the wildlife committee of the Environmental weakening of the act, some dangerous change in Council; but I was not aware of those things. the regulation, when Mr. Mackling, Mr. Evans and I wonder, bringing the situation more up to present Mr. Plohman as late as 1988 passed identical, word time,why it is not sufficientfor the Minister of Natural for word regulations with exemptions. Now why is Resources simply to dispense with the existing it that it was not considered by the AdvisoryCouncil regulations; but rather he has to enshrine those to be a weakening of The Wildlife Act, a weakening regulations in the act itself. of the wildlife management act under those The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, circumstances, but is considered to be a gross please. I would like to remind the honourable weakening of the act under these circumstances? members that this is a time for clarification of the Mr. Punter: Mr. Acting Chairman, I believe that, in representations being brought forward and not the general, when regulations are put into force, they time for debate, or we will be here until six o'clock in are not made especially public; and unless there is the morning. some issue such as the present one to bring them Mr. Enns: I accept your wisdom, Mr. Acting to public notice, it is unlikely that anybody will Chairman. respond to them. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Laurendeau): Thank Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Chairman, l would accept that you, Mr. Minister. answer from most people, certainly from the representative of the cattle producersor somebody Ms.Cer llll: Mr. Punter, was the council, the wildlife else. But you, sir, represent an organization that committee of the council, consulted on Bill 38? watches government, that reads the Gazette; or Mr. Punter: I am not sure that it was. I could not else how would you know that I passed that tell you for certain. We certainly received 154 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

information about it and took it upon ourselves to You have appeared before many, many committees react to it, but we likely would not have been asked and I have been on those committees that you, not to respond to it by our minister. you personally but representativ es, Mr. Neily and Ms. Cerllll: The other regulation that was others, have come before us on all of these things. mentioned, 46/90. Is that the one? Was there You participate in public debate all the time, some involvement from members of the council in conferences, committee hearings, the Environment the development of that regulation,or are you aware Commission hearings. What do you think of a of how that more progressive regulation came to be minister who says, heading into public debate, the or was put forward? committee stage of this bill, and is quoted as saying, May 15, that the new act will undergo public (Mr. Chairman in the Chair) hearings to allow people to appear before a Mr.Punter: No, I am not aware of how it had been legislative committee to express their concerns, but put forward. I am just pleased that it was. added he will not consider amendments?

Ms.Cerll ll: So I am to understand, you have made Mr.Punter: I am not sure if it is for me to say what it quite clear, that currentlythe proposed building for I think of a minister who does that. the Oak Hammock Marsh is illegal under The Mr.Edwa rds: Go ahead. Wildlife Act thatwe have currently. Mr. Punter: I would suppose that this is a political Mr.Punter: I am nota lawyer. question, and I would imagine that the minister will Ms.Cer llll: My final question is, do you have some succeed or fail politically on the basis of such specific amendments for this legislation that would statements. deal with the designation of wildlife management Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairperson, let me suggest to areas? the presenter that what that does, what that Mr. Punter: The position of the council, I think, is approach does, is turn thishearing process into very that the existing situation in The Wildlife Act is much of a farce. It means that we sit here night after satisfactory as far as designation is concerned night listening to people like you who have put exceptthat we would like to see some rather more together briefs intelligently, with thoroughness, with specific description of what is required of a wildlife research involved, all the while knowing that we are management area, what is its purpose and a more in fact playing a political game at the behest of the precise definition of it. minister, because we have no power ostensibly to Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr. Punter, for your put amendments forward. presentation, and I agree totally with you that, in Mr.Chairman : Order, please; order, Mr. Edwards. particular, on Section 3(1 ), I think that either you Po i nt of Or d er provide some security and assuredness in an act and in regulations, or you do not. Mr. Laurendeau: On a point of order, Mr. I, for one, do not understand how you purport to Chairman, I do believe that we are attempting to get set out in great detail, which I admire, and if you look through some of this and that we are trying to see if through the regulations you will see that, as you there is any clarification within this statement. So I have , you cannot canoe between sundown and would hopethat the honourable members will clarify sunrise in some of these areas. We get into that that. level of detail and at the same time provide an Mr.Chair man: The memberdoes not have a point absolute carte blanche ministerial override over the of order. whole system. It boggles my mind. *** I also must admit and acknowledge that the

minister is right. That has been there for a long time, Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairperson, my point is, why and perhaps the one thing that can be said about exactly does the presenter think we are doing this? this minister is that he has at least come out of the I cannot find a reason, given that the minister has closet on this issue. He is putting it in the act. It has told us he will consider no amendments. Why are been in the regulations for 1 0 years in any event. we here if not to consider amendments which My question is based on what I know of the people like Mr. Punter in good faith put forward to activities of the Manitoba Environmental Council. us? June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 155

• (231 0) sir, whether you make recognition of the fact that there are times when there should be pesticides Mr. Chairman: Order, order, Mr. Edwards. Do you applied if other activitiessuch as haying or mowing have a question for clarification of the presenter? and whatever can not take place. Floor Comment: That is my question. The concernI have with the old act, and we have Mr. Penner: Mr. Chairman, I want to indicate to Mr. had some significantdiscussions in that department Punter that, in having listened to and viewed his about the old act, which, as the department brief, I believe that he makes from the suggests, prohibited many of these activities. Environmental Council some very valid points, and I wonder whether you could shed some light on I respect the fact that he cleals specifically with the what your views are on how to, in fact, encourage bill, as some other presenters probably have not. the co-operation that is needed between the However, I have some concerns in what he implies agricultural community in this province and the and a question for some clarification about what the retention of some of these wildlife areas and the implications of the recommendations and the development of these wetlandareas in co-operation amendments would In fact mean that he is that will allow for both of themto take place in a more proposing. co-operative manner than has been, in fact, the On the third paragraph in his presentation-on case up to now. your presentation on page 1, you indicate: "Anyone Mr. Punter: Mr. Chairman, how long do I have? familiar with the history of wildlife and ecosystem How many weeks? conservation knows that the main threats to conservation of natural areas have come at least as I fully concede that thereare occasions in which often from bad planning or political pressures as wildlife management areas and thewildlife in those

from external or nongovernmental activities.w areas can best be managed by allowing some ofthe activities that are presently prohibited by Regulation Then, at the bottom of the first page and the top 4690. of the second page, you n�fer to "an area was designated if he considered them appropriate. For The problem that the Council has with the example, Regulation 46/90 presently prohibits, inter amendment to the Act is more in that it gives alia, haying, grazing, clearing, bulldozing, burning, authority to the ministerto essentiallyoverrule what fencing, logging, cultivation, mineral exploration and has been designated by cabinet. We would very extraction, application ofinsecticides or herbicides, much prefer that since cabinet has made the and construction or occupation of buildings in a designation that cabinet has the final authority in whether or not these things should be allowed. Wildlife Management Area. w Now, having spent some time at the Oak There certainlyare, as I said, cases in which some Hammock Marsh and some of the other of these activities may be necessary to successfully developed-or marshes that are currently being manage wildlife management areas. I rather doubt developed in this province, it is interesting to note whether the use of herbicides is one of those. If I that in a specific marsh area next to Lake Manitoba, get on to The Noxious Weeds Act I might be here a large ranching operation is, in fact, taking place for a very long time and you probably would not and that there are large numbers of geese nesting enjoy it, but we have an Act there which I happen to in the pasture where these cattle are grazing. consider is totally ridiculous and should be radically Similarly, we have other situations where agriculture changed, but I do not think you want to get into that is existent either in co-operation with the wildlife or at this point. in areas that are, at least, bordering agricultural If there is anything else I can clarify, I would be areas, and Oak Hammock is one of them. happy to do so. Having been the minister of this departmentfor a Mr. Penner: Mr. Chairman, I would be glad to year and having had the opportunity to have some debate the merits of The Noxious Weeds Act and/or involvement in observing how the Oak Hammock whether we should in fact allow the infestation of Marsh operates and having also witnessed the Canadian thistle or leafy spurge or any one of those severe weed infestation that is currently in existence kinds of weeds that are simpfy virtually impossible at the Oak Hammock area and having discussed to eradicate once they become established to occur this with some of the farmers in the area, I wonder, and be maintained. 156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

The only reason I raise this, because I realize, that we can get some more of these presentations having been the minister. in that department, that done or we will not get caught up. there are times when the ministerial authority is Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairperson, the initial needed fairly quickly to deal with certain situations discussion was thatwe would go till eleven o'clock. such as weeds and other issues, or flooding or not We have still got a room full of presenters. We are to allow flooding in some of these areas, to in fact certainly not going to get through all of the list or encourage and maintain that wildlife habitat in those even a substantial portion of it tonight. It is my specific areas. Sometimes those actions need to suggestion that we have Thursday night be taken fairly quickly, and the only person that can designated. Mr. Laurendeau has made a in fact deal with those situations as quickly as they suggestion which seems reasonable, that we need to be dealt with is, of course, at that time the convene to find other times when we could meet, minister. Having usurped the authority of the but I do notthink we serveany purpose in taking this minister, thewhole process has to in fact take place, through inordinately tonight. I would therefore which can, of course, take weeks and sometimes suggest that we break at this time, with a view to even months. having that meeting and finding alternative times * (2320) thatwe can discussthis matteron reasonableterms Therefore, I think this act is not only a good act, and during reasonable hours. but should have been enactedlong ago, and I would Mr. Chairman: Is it agreed then by the committee rather suspect that we would all agree that it is that we ask the House Leader to set another through the normal process. We normally elect meetingfor 1 0 on Thursday morning? fairly responsible people and they act fairly Some Honourable Members: Agreed. responsibly in their portfolios, and they normally Mr. Chairman: Agreed? Will we also wish to sit receive somepretty fair advice from theirrespective departments in the operation of that portfolio. So Thursday night? from that perspective, I would suggest that the act An Honourable Members: We are in any event. as being proposed is probably needed and needed Mr. Chairman: I was told that it had not been set soonerthan later. at this point. Mr. Punter: I would agree that there are activities Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just add of the kind that you mention, Mr. Minister, that this: There may be some presenters that may or perhaps need to be put into effect quite quickly if may not be able to make it for 10 a.m. Thursday or they are to have thedesired effect. I cannot seethat indeed the evening. the construction of buildings, especially large I would certainly be prepared to allow them to buildings, construction of roads and things of that make further presentations before we adjourn kind come in this category, and it might be tonight, ifthat is thewill of the committee. appropriate if the amendments were amended to separate those sorts of functions from those that Mr.Chairma n: Is that the will of the committee to might conceivably be needed to take place rapidly, proceed then? but I cannot,frank ly, see that anybodyneeds to put Mr. Edwards: Perhaps we couldcanvass those at up a building more rapidly than they can get cabinet this time in the audience to find out how many we together. are talking about before we make that commitment. Mr. Chairman: Are thereany other questions from Mr.Chair man: Let us take a two-minute breakhere Mr. Punter? Thank you, Mr. Punter. while the Clerk checks. Thank you.

Mr. Punter: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. *** Mr. Chairman: Does the committee wish to The committee took recess at 11:22 p.m. continue?

An Honourable Member: Continue. Aft er Rec ess Mr. Laurendeau: I would like to make one recommendation before we continue though, Mr. The committee resumed at 11:27 p.m. Chairman, and that is that we ask the House Leader Mr. Chairman: Order, please. We have four to reconvenea meeting for 10 a.m. on Thursday so people who would like to present tonight, the first June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157

being Mr. Ray Fetterly. Would you please come understand that they have been wrong a few times, forward. but not to my knowledge. I have no first-hand knowledge of this. Based on this track record, it Mr. Ray Fetterly (Private Citizen): Mr. Minister,­ speaks for itself. They are a most trustworthy Mr. Chairman: One moment, please, till the- organization. I am not a member of Ducks For the benefit of the audience, those of us who Unlimited, but maybe I should be. would like to go home and catch some sleep and So much energy and money has been spent by come back another day, is it the intention of the those opposedto thepro ject. This small handful of committee to hear the four people and then adjourn? protestors seems to have reached the stage where An Honourable Member: Will we convene at 10 proven fact and reason and good common sense a.m. Thursday morning? means nothing. They go on and on about ecology Mr.Fette rly: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, and what enemiesof society are Ducks Unlimited my lifetime of work has been 21 years as a and Natural Resources management. conservation officerin the province of Manitobaand According to people like Mr. Syrett and Hilary 1 0 years with the agricultural Crown lands in the Versavel, almost everything is wrong. I wonderhow provinceof Manitoba. I am now retired. I know that many hours they have spent with Ducks Unlimited I speak for well over 200 people in the area, but as or Natural Resourcesand tried to find out what they far as this representation here today, I speak as a are all about and exactly what they intend to do in taxpayer and a concerned local citizen. the marsh. My guess is they have not been there at

* (2330) all or at least very little. These self-appointed saviours of the universe can cause untold damage I have been a hunter all my life, but I have now to a worthy project, and I wish they would direct their reached the stage where I would rather watch the energies in tryingto help instead of to tear down. birds and animals than take them for food. I speak strongly in favour of the Oak Hammock project. I I think of all the great advantages to be gained by believe The Wildlife Act should be changed to the Ducks Unlimited development in the Oak accommodate this development. Yes, this change Hammock Marsh. Tourism is a very large industry will give the honourable minister more power and, in the province and these facilities will enhance this yes, at a glance, it appears to give the minister too for this partof the province. For example, bus tours much power, but this is the only way such a from Winnipeg can then spend two early-morning progressive and educational venture canbe brought hours at Lower Fort Garry, an hour or so at Selkirk about. Marine Museum, then travel to Oak Hammock for As far as setting a precedent for development lunch, with a return trip to the quarry in Stonewall, elsewhere, this argument is only that; it is just an Quarry Park, and then return home by 4 p.m. A argument. As you can be assured, if and When any more exciting and educational trip could not be other development comes about, it willhave to stand imagined. on its own the same as Oak Hammock has. After I retired I worked as a tour guide, an Everybody knows this. interpreter, for Parks Canada at Lower Fort Garry Let me say that Oak Hammock has been of for two and a half summers. We had over a interest to me since Day One. During the 1980 thousand to 1,800 people through there every day. drought the marsh was opened up for hay. I was in One morning when I arrived at work there were 18 charge of issuing the permits at that time; busloads of seniors waiting to enter the park. After consequently, there is hardly a square yard of the a two-hour tour they went on to Selkirk Marine entire marsh that I have not set foot on at some time Museum and then returned back to Winnipeg. or other. It was quickly evident that there is a dire need for On behalf of Ducks Unlimited, let me say thatfor an additional facility such as we have under review, over 35 years I have worked with and observed their a facility in which people can receive the proper work in many of their-as I understand it there are education and instruction, but at the same time can over a thousand projects, I thought it was only 600 be controlled and not beallowed to roam at will and within the province. I have never known them to be trample everything in sight, but be directed to the wrong with their planning or their development. I high points, so as to receive the maximum benefit 158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

without causing irreparable damage to the facility. Mr. Chairman, please allow me to add, for the Believe you me, if people �re allowed to roam at will, benefit of the former presenter, there are no polar as they are now, for the most part, they will bears or alligators in Oak Hammock Marsh and eventually trample everything in sight. People are there will not be in my lifetime or his. Also, he seems just like that. to be worried that Ducks Unlimited might bring in an This project will not be perfect. Some will take it agricultural demonstration. Well, I certainly hope upon themselves to throw garbage in the water and so, for agriculture and the compatibility of wildlife this will probably cause some problem, but it should and agriculture is the very essence from which this not stop it from going ahead. project came. The present facility at Oak Hammock is In the Free Presstoday, just forclarifica tion, I note hard-pressed to handle the peoplewho come,and there is a story blaming Ducks Unlimited for the there will a sharp increase because of the publicity failure to hold sandhill cranesin the British Columbia gained from these current proposals. Oak wildlife area. It should be made known that the Hammock cannot stand much more use without sandhill cranes tend to changetheir migratory habits great sums of money being spent on improvements from year to year and cannot be counted upon to to the facility to accommodate these visitors. come back to the same area year after year. They are unlike other species of birds. Does Mr. Syrett and his followingwish to see an increase in taxes to do this work? I do not, when In May, I cannot besure of the year, but I believe there is a highly respected private organization it was 1970, in the small country school called ready and willingto do the job. They will take care Edward Best School at the corner of No. 7 Highway of the future and provide the much needed and Stonewall corner, a public meeting was held to education,as well as guard the natural environment discuss the purchase of the land which was known for us. as the St. Andrewsbog at that time-it is now Oak Hammock Marsh. The place was packed and the At Lower FortGarry, for the most part,visitors can be accommodated under a roofshould it be raining. only complaint was the government was not paying At the present time, bus and carloads of people enough money forthe land they were purchasing for arrive at Oak Hammock and, should it be raining, the wildlife management area. they quite simply are forced to tum around and The bog, at that time, was considered useless leave. land and good for nothing. Where were all these When developed, there will be room to look after complainers at thattime? As a result of that meeting these people inside, if theywish, or, for the hardy, Dr. Hugh Crosby, secretary to the Secretary of the plenty of outdoorsare there. I recently spent a few Interior of the United States government was monthsin Aorida. I was fortunateenough to be able requested to review the bogand give his opinion. I, to do that, and they have even a greater problem along with several other department people, spent than we in handling more people in such places as some time with this gentleman. His reply was: The Everglades National Park and, speaking of bog is the very best wetland project I have ever seen alligators, that is where they are. for wildlife management and for a wetland educational area for the future learning of our young They have a tramfor transportationand a building people. where one can go to see a video during inclement weather or tour on foot or by bicycle. The animals We have reached a stage where this educational have gotten so used to humans, they quite simply dream can come about. Let us get on with the job. hatch or bear their young right along the roadways. I urge the authorities to bring about the necessary Wildlife Act changes andget on with this extremely By an act of providence, we have been given Oak educational and futuristic project. Development of Hammock Marsh to use and enjoy, but to use wisely the marsh is necessary to accommodate the and not cause unnecessary damage. I believe we increased need for education in the future use of our are on the right track, and I say, let us get behind wildlife and of our wetlands. Ducks Unlimited and help them do the necessary work to develop thisworthy project to the extentand I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be pleased to in the way that we would all like it to be. try and answer any questions. June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 159

Mr. Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. Department of Natural Resources will be Fetterly? Mr. Fetterly, I thank you for your undertaken in a manner that would be responsible presentation. and complimentary to the sensitive nature of the wetlandsand its inhabitants . .. (2340) The next presenter we have is a Mr. Robert The council believes Ducks Unlimited and the Potter, No. 12 on your Jist. Mr. Potter, would you Department of Natural Resources to be two please come forward. Mr. Potter, please proceed. organizationsthat truly represent preservation and enhancement of wetlands and wildlife for the Mr.Robert Potter(Town of Stonewall): I extend betterment of all. Therefore, the Council of the my apologies for Mayor Lethbridge, who was called Town of Stonewall gives its full support to the Oak to another meeting tonight. Hammock project and to this amendment. Thank The Council of the Town of St onewall wishes to you. indicate its supportfor 8111 38, being an act to amend Mr.Enns: Mr. Potter, I just want to thank you, and The Wildlife Act. This amendment to The Wildlife I would ask you to pass on my appreciation to your Act will provide for better management, mayor and council members for your presentation conservation and enhancement of the wildlife today. resource of the province by allowing the minister to make such regulations as are appropriate I have one question that I would like to ask you, a respecting the use, control and management of an similar question that I asked when we heard a area, aswell as authorizing, regulating or prohibiting representative from the R.M. of Rockwood,which, any use, activity or thing in an area. of course, is the local municipality Involved in the area. He was able to indicate to my colleagues on More specifically, this amendment allows the minister to make such regulation as the minister the committee that he in fact was speaking in support of the project. In doing so, he was considers appropriate, authorizing the construction, expressing thetotal unanimous support of the R.M. operation and maintenance of any building, of Rockwood. I wonder If you have any Information structure or thing in a wildlife management area. that could indicate to members of the committee the This portionof 8ill 38 is the most decisive tothe town degree of support from the mayor and the council of Stonewall with respect to the proposed that you are presenting today. Is It full support on development of an office facility and interpretive centre by Ducks Unlimited and the Department of the council? Natural Resources in the Oak Hammock Marsh Mr.Pott er: It is my belief, yes. Theproject and the Wildlife Management Area. amendment to the act have the full support of The Oak Hammock Marsh is one of the most council. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. impressive wetlands in the world. Through the Mr. Edwards: Thank you for your presentation. I previous efforts of Ducks Unlimited and the want to just be clear on what you said. Let me run Department of Natural Resources, not only have this past you. As I hear you, you would supportthe various species of waterfowland wildlife enjoyed the minister or cabinet being able to prescribe uses for marsh, but also the thousands of people who have the better management, conservation and visited the marsh to view and learn more of these enhancement of the wildlife resource of the wetlands and its inhabitants. province. Is that a test that you would agree with?

The proposed interpretive centre will only further Mr. Potter: Yes, I believe I would. encourage and educate people on the importance Mr. Edwards: Perhaps you would just of wetlands and the preservation of all species of communicate to the fellow councillors in the town of wildlife. The proposed development will also Stonewall that test presently exists in Section 2 of enhance local tourism in the area and provide an The Wildlife Act, and there is no need for these excellent educational opportunity to schoolchildren amendments to have that test apply. of the province. It is the opinion of the Council of the Town of Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions? Stonewall that the proposed development of the Ms.Ce rllll: Yes. Just to make the point that under office facility in the interpretive centre at Oak the current act the thing that is illegal, the thing that Hammock Marsh by Ducks Unlimited and the is referred to in the act is an officebuilding, thatthere 160 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

is a prov1s1on for other development. There it seeks to restore and conserve. That is the certainly is the provision ·to have construction in Community Futures organization. wildlife management areas that are going to We can visualize direct economic benefits, the enhance wildlife habitat. boost to tourist development and the intelligent The thing that people are objecting to is to have management of natural resources in the long term an office building in a wildlife management area, which a development such as Oak Hammock centre which sets a precedent not only for Oak Hammock would provide. Marsh but for every other wildlife area in the Neicom Developments feels a community with a province. future is one which must work in concertwith nature, An Honourable Member: Is thata statement or a restoring habitats and safeguarding our wildlife . question? Therefore, based on the points raised in this presentation, Neicom Developments would like to Mr.Chairm an: Order, please. Are there any other reaffirm its position of full support for the Ducks questions? Thank you, Mr. Potter. Unlimited conservation centre proposal at the Oak Order, please. Mr. Greg Dandewich, would you HammockMarsh. please come forward. It is No. 24 on your list. Mr. Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. Order, please. Mr. Dandewich, would you please Dandewich? proceed. Ms. Cerllll: What kind of an organization do you Mr.Greg Dandewlch (Nelcom Developments): I represent? am thecommuni ty development co-ordinator forthe Northeast Interlake Community Futures Mr.Dandewl ch: Community Futures organization. Corporation. We are a Community Futures It is set up and funded by the CEIC, the federal organization which has set up a community-based, department. decision-making board which attempts to identify An Honourable Member: Community based? specific types of initiatives that will stimulate employment and help diversify our region's Mr.Dandewl ch: Community based, yes. economic base. Ms.Cer llll: Can you describe for me some of the Our region consists of the rural municipalities of activities of your organization? Gimli, Rockwood, Bifrost and the LGDs of Fisher Mr. Dandewlch: Some of the activities up to this and Armstrong. I am here this evening on behalf of point that have been undertake n by our my board of directors to reaffirmits previous position organization, or corporation: one is the Gimli hotel of March 26, 1990, to fully support the Ducks that has been developed; the other one Is, we are Unlimited conservation centre at the Oak Hammock working with respect to the Narcisse snake pits, Marsh. taking a look at that natural resource, or natural amenity. The Neicom Developments board considers this to be a desirable economic development, one which Some of the other different projects that we are would improve the area's prosperity while sustaining looking at is the forage plant study for the Interlake the environment. Similarily, the establishment of a area, and these are some of the main ones that are first-class interpretive centre in Oak Hammock will underway right now as specific initiatives. educate people on the necessity of nature Mr.Chairma n: Are there any other questions? conservancy, which ultimately may lead to the development of wetlands and potential wetlands Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Dandewich, can you tell me now neglected. how many people your group would be representing? Finally, Ducks Unlimited is legendary for its conservancy and restoration of wetlands and Mr. Dandewlch: Basically, our board of directors maintains an international reputation as a nature has about 12 representatives who are conservancy leader. Careful site selection, community-based representatives that sit on our ingenious building design, stringent controls on board. They represent not only the municipality and sight, sound, air, soil and water pollution all provide LGDs but also the communities involved. Our for development which will co-exist with the nature region has a population of about 23,000 people; June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 161

therefore, that would probably be the amount of Resources, and therefore, they should have the people that our boardwould represent. ability to authorize activities within a managed area. Mr. Laurendeau: Thank you very much. In having such an authority, if the Departmentof Ms. Cerllll: The Narcisse snake pits are another Natural Resources gives the okay to Ducks wildlife management area, are they not? Unlimited after concluding a comprehensive agreement, then the business community of Mr. Dandewlch: Yes. Stonewall and area supportthat project totally. Ms. Cerllll: What is your involvement there with development? Generally we are satisfied that negative impact to the environment will be minimized. There is no Mr. Dandewlch: At this point, basically what we doubt that having such a project in our area will are looking at is the facility itself-or I should not impact very favourably on our local economies by actually call it facility, but the natural amenity that reducing unemployment, stimulating housing sales the snake dens are. What is happening is that there and boosting sales and income for many. More are not any specific outlines for people to follow, and importantfor the long term, having a very extensive what is happening is that inadvertently they are educational and interpretivecentre at the marsh will trampling in areas which perhaps they should not be help ensure that our awareness as to the trampling on. Therefore, with co-operation with the importanceand beauty of the wildlife that make this LGD of Armstrong and Natural Resources, what we marsh their home continues to grow. are trying to do Is to be able to develop the area in such a way as not to have people trample the area For generations to come, the sensitivity to this down. aspect of our environment can be broadened In a way much faster and better thango vernment can do * (2350) on its own. We understand that when the existing There was recently in the paper-1 am sure centre was first placed in the marsh, It was everybody is awareof the theft of about 800 garter anticipated that only a very few thousand visitors snakes; a couple of individuals were apprehended would be expected. Now some 80,000 to 90,000 at the border. They fetch a fairly decent price. visitors enjoy that centre and what it has to offer. Basically, what has happened is that there Is not any prevention of this at this time. Therefore, it is a bit Does this not tell us something, that there is of a concern,and since the LGD is within our specific perhaps a great interest and an enthusiasm for this region, we are at this point looking into creating kind of education and exposure? Ofcourse it does. something that will prevent this in the future. We believe this project will be good for all of Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions for Manitoba. We also believe that our government, Mr. Dandewlch? Thank you very much for your with its economic realities in thefor eground, cannot presentation, Mr. Dandewich. afford such an undertaking alone, and perhaps it should not in any event as long as there are private Would Mr. Ron Seymour please come forward? sources of capital available to accomplish thesame He is No. 28 on your list. Mr. Seymour, would you mandate. please proceed. In closing, we want you to know that the business Mr. Ron Seymour {President, Stonewall & District Chamber of Commerce): Mr. Chairman, community and the individual citizens of Stonewall members of the committee, essentially, I want to and area wish to thank the leaders and members of draw you attention to the letter from the Stonewall this committee for taking the time to hear our point and District Chamber of Commerce, dated June 5. of view. Thank you. You must have that I believe. Mr. Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. We, the Chamber of Commerce in Stonewall and Seymour? District, represent more than 60 businesses in the Mr. Enns: I would ask Mr. Seymour to pass on my area and would like to commit our supportto these appreciation to members of the Stonewall chamber much needed improvements to The Wildlife Act. for the presentation here today. Thank you. We share the opinion that the best specialists in Mr. Seymour: Thank you. I will. the wildlife area are naturally those who work to carry out the mandate ofthe Departmentof Natural Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Seymour. 162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

Would Mr. lan Greaves comeforward please, No. Mr. Enns, we are merely going through the 6 on your list. Mr. Greaves, would you please motions, and you will not listen to the people who proceed. elected you. Mr. lan Greaves (PrivateCitizen} : Good evening, This government has been in favour of this Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister, fellow committee complex long before there was a Clean members. My name is lan Greaves. Environment Commission hearing or even a As a concernedcitizen with a love for the outdoors complete environmental assessment done. This and a deep concern for the environment and was shownin a letterwritten to the Stonewall Argus, protection of wildlife, I want to express my strong March 9, 1990 by the Minister of Natural Resources. opposition to the Ducks Unlimited Canada national Amending this act pains me in what I read in headquartersand conservation complexscheduled Section 3(1 ): "Unless otherwise provided by this to be built in Oak Hammock Wildlife Management Act and the regulations, the designation of an area Area and the Manitoba government's very biased for the better management, conservation and view on this matter. enhancement ofthe wildlife resource of the province Since I firstheard about this in January, 1990, I in accordancewith section 2 doesnot limit or affect found it hard to believe what I thoughtwas a leading the uses ..., and the minister may make such conservationgroup, Ducks Unlimited,would want to regulations as the minister considers appropriate." build this 54,000 square foot building in the marsh. Part(c) "authorizing the construction, operation and For many months I thought about this and I believe maintenance of any building, structure or thing in a now that I have in partcome to my own conclusion. wildlife management area." Ducks Unlimited, despite itshigh profile nature and I understand what a building is, or a structure, but the public's poor vision on the benefits of its work, a thing? I pondered what a thing might be. The is a private corporation which lobbies for action Concise Oxford Dictionary defines "thing": favourable to its membership. whatever is or may be thought about or perceived. It is very inappropriate to allow them to locate on This minister, or future ministers far worse than public land regardless ofthe fact thatthey had a part thispresent one, may have a thought orperceive an in converting this marsh from St. Andrews Bog to idea and start the building of a structure and call it Oak Hammock Marsh. The peopleof Manitoba are the thing. A five-star environmentally sound hotel the proprietors of this marsh and private with balconies doubling as shootingblinds is a thing. organizations should not be perm itted to A twenty-five foot bronze statue of the Right compromise this fundamental relationship. Honourable Harry Enns in the middle of the Oak Permitting Ducks Unlimited to operate on this Hammock Marsh is a thing. This wording is as marsh, which is a very high trafficarea, with 83,000 loose as a goose. As ridiculous as this sounds,the visitorslast year, would be used to raise money for amending of parts of this act is to satisfy Mr. Enns' this private organization, cashing in on the visitors friends in Ducks Unlimited and to thwart any legal using public lands. challenge to his plans of allowing Ducks Unlimited In the last provincial election,the Tories' television to build this office complexat Oak Hammock Marsh. ads showed Premier Gary Filmon paddling down In a recent Winnipeg Free Press article, May 8, the LaSalle River in a canoe. If elected, the 1991 , entitled Marsh Opposition Called Hypocrisy, environment would naturally be a top priority in the Mr. Enns accused the New Democratic Party of Progressive Conservative Party. This government hypocrisy by stating the fact that the NDP allowed is environmentally fraudulent. Home Oil Company Limited of Calgary to drill in the I now ask Mr. Enns, why are we here? Are we Pierson Wildlife Management Area. Perhaps the wasting our time? You are quoted in the Winnipeg NDP made a poor choice by allowingoil companies Free PresS, May 15, 1991 , as saying: The new act to drill for oil there. This government should be will undergo public hearings to allow people to strengthening and correcting this act and not appear before a legislative committee to express weakening it. Mr. Enns, you should be righting the their concerns, but, he added, he will not consider wrongs of past governments and not making more amendments. wrongs. June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 163

This government has said many times in the past said in the brief, should not be permitted to be out that the environment impact report might there. That is what- demonstrate littleor no impact on this marsh. Mr. Enns: That is fine, Mr. Greaves. I just wanted

* (0000) to put on the record though that the Departmentof Natural Resourceswill continueto maintain control, This is exactly what a farmer will say when he tells management of the Oak HammockMarsh proper. you he wants todrain a small area or build a dwelling near a wetland. What many of us know and fight to On another matter thatyou, sir, and a few others save at first is not always threatened in a big way have raised on the question ofamendments, I fully but gradually and incrementally. First this office expect amendments will be coming from this complex. What next? These actions are in committee to alter, change, or somewhat change violation of the spirit under which lands were the bill that is currently before us. I will use my established as wildlife management area. Duck influence as one member ofthis committee to try to Unlimited and Mr. Enns have lost sight of this in argue against those amendments. If I am these effects to build in Oak Hammock Marsh. successful, the amendments will fall; if I am not successful, the amendments will pass. It is as The goal of all of us, and I speak to the public simple as that. Thathow this committee, that is how behind me, must be to influence our politicians on the democratic committee operates. Thank you. the question of wilderness protection. All of us must think like the Iroquois or aboriginal people. When Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairperson, let me say how they hunted on the land and cut down the trees, they much I agree with Mr. Greaves about his comment always thought ahead seven generations. Like the about the concerns about why we are here. You, Iroquois, we as Canadians need to focus on sir, have waited until almost midnight on a week safeguarding our irreplaceable natural features. night, and I am sure you have many other things you This should be our wilderness crusade. We need to could be doing; we all do. We are here very late, retain the wild end of the spectrum rather than be early into the next morning. We were so last week, pushed towards the otherend. Let us keepthe wild we will be again. It depresses me to no end, and I in wildlife management area. Thankyou. want to express my agreement with you, that the minister would indicate not that he cannot committo Mr. Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. passing any amendments, but that he will not Greaves? Mr. Minister? consider amendments. That to me makes a Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the mockery of this entire public hearing process. presenter, Mr. Greaves, that on page one he does Let me simply indicate in response to the minister make the observation that would certainly be of that the very fact that he who draftedthe bill would concern to me, as indeed to all other Manitobans, not even consider amendments to me suggests that when he suggests that in any way we are he views this as largely a waste of your effort, our transferring ownership or losing proprietorship of the time, and we are just going through the motions until Oak HammockMarsh. he can get this into law. That, sir, depresses me, What the agreement calls for is joint management and I want you to know that that feeling is shared by of the specific site, interpretive centrethat will come me. I will be here on many more nights than you will under the jurisdiction of Ducks Unlimited, and the be, I am afraid. I will be putting forward interpretive centre that will come under the joint amendments, as the minister expects, but I have jurisdiction of the management board. The absolutely no hope that they will not just not be Department of Natural Resources, the people of passed, but that they will be even considered by the Manitoba retain full and complete management minister. responsibilities of the marsh property proper. Mr. Chairman: Are there any other questions for I would ask, where did he read in any of the Mr. Greaves? Thank you very much for your information that he has obviously received about the presentation, Mr. Greaves. project that would indicate otherwise? I would like to inform the presenters that still have Mr. Greaves: Hopefully I am not beating around to come on the list that the committee will the bush, but I believe that you should not be recommend to the government House leader that building out there and a: private organization, like I the committee meet again on Thursday morning at 164 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 18, 1991

1 0 and Thursday evening at eight. Once the formal Our students and staff will be anxiously awaiting announcement has been made, all presenters will the opportunity to use these facilities in the near be contacted and notified by the Committee Clerk. future. The timebeing twelveo'clock, this committeerise. Yours truly, COMMITTEE RO SE AT: 12:05 a.m. George B. Schreyer Chairman of theBoard WR ITTEN SUBMISSIONS PRESE NTED A BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF THE PROPOSED BUT NOT READ OAK HAMMOCK CONSERVATION CENTRE by the Dear Sir: LORD SELKIRK SCHOOL DIVISION NO. 11 I would like to record my support for the Oak PRESENTED BY BRUCE MCPHAIL Hammock conservationcentre and the amendment SCHOOL TRUSTEE to The Wildlife Act, Bill C-38. The Lord Selkirk School Division Board of There is no organization in North America more Trustees are in full support of the proposed Oak qualifiedthan DucksUnlim ited Canada. They have Hammock conservation centre. Our division is proven their commitment to wildlife in Canada for located around the southern part of Lake Winnipeg. We have approximately 5,000 students in Grades over 50 years. I find it incredible that anyone could question their conservation and environmental K-12 attending fourteen schools in the communities of Selkirk, Clandeboye, Lockport,St. Andrews, East integrity. Thank you. Selkirk, Gonor,Libau, Grand Marais, VictoriaBeach Bob Hysop and the Brokenhead Ojibway Nation. We have approximately 700 employees of which 300 are *** teachers. Our board had an opportunity to study the To Whom It May Concern: proposal for the OakHammock conservation centre. As this proposed centre is adjacent to our school Please find enclosed documents which have division's western boundary,we are well acquainted been submitted to the Minister of the Environment with this area. Our first reaction was to the unique by our school division. design of the structure which will obviously blend in Our position remains in favour of the project for beautifully in this naturalsetting. reasons enclosed. I am personally well acquainted with the Oak Yours truly, Hammock Marsh as I have had the opportunity to participate in Greenwing activities that are Ken Halldorson sponsored by the local Ducks Unlimited volunteers. Superintendent of Schools The aim of the Greenwing program for youth is to Lord Selkirk School Division No. 11 promote understanding of the environment and its wildlife, in particular, waterfowl and other species Dear Minister: whose future is dependent on a plenitude of suitable wetland and upland habitat and wise management The Board of Trustees of theLord Selkirk School decisions. Division wish to record their support for the Ducks Unlimited proposed project in the Oak Hammock The educational opportunities for all students Marsh. The board feels that this project will Grades K-1 2 would be outstanding. This would be enhance the educational opportunities of our a world-class conservation centre that will provide students in this unique natural setting andwill also enhanced studies of nature and also serve as a focus attention on Manitoba as a leading centre in biological resource centre. This centre would environmental education. In studying the proposal provide educational opportunitiesfor adults as well. we feel that the design will complement and Our Lord Selkirk Regional Comprehensive enhance the existing setting at the site and at the School graduates approximately 350 students same time will be aimed at protecting wildlife and annually. We hope that a centre of this type will othernatural resources of Oak HammockMarsh. provide some employment opportunities for our June 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 165

graduates of various programs from Computer The opportunities for students to experience Science, Business, Marketing, Food Services and educational field trips to this centre. The many other programs. facilities will demonstrate to students that Our enrollment is in a slight decline; therefore, we learning about wetland ecology and would have sufficient room to accommodate the conservation can be rewarding and fun. It is expected increase of student population from the young people of today who will eventually families of employees moving to our area. Our influence decisions impacting upon habitat and town, villages and municipalities would welcome wildlife resources. new residents and look forward to meeting the The planned extension program can be utilized needs of the employees at this centre. Here is one in most of our classrooms. Our high school of the few opportunities for our area to experience biology class will be highly motivated in seeing some growth. research first-hand and they will be able to Therefore, our supportfor this project is based on make use of this biological resource centre. the following: These are just a few of the benefits that our The economic factor which will help the students and citizens may enjoy from this project. It Interlake area. This will come from increased would indeed be a loss if a project such as this would tourist and visitor traffic plus the establishing of be stopped or transferred to another area of the employees for this centre. province or country. The environmental factors are Our school division will experience some minimal and, in fact, this project will provide the enrollment growth as well. necessaryresearch for making wise decisions in the future. Our area will be known for having a world-class national conservation centre. I thank you for the opportunity to present this brief.