357 ~camandsfor Grants (&n),BHADRA 14,191 3 (SAKA)ChmW & Fert~kets,Civr7 358 lSR91-92M. Of* Mh. of Aviath & Twrism edc. the 64 kilometres work would have been MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: They are completed. If the entire track renewalwork is coming. They are anxious to completed, the present speed of the trains hear....( lntemptions). buld be raised from 40 k.m. per hour to 60 k.m. per hour. Further, the entire money [Translation] already sanctioned may lapse due to this unjustifiable decision of the railway authori- SHRl KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): Those ties of the Southern Railway. The people of who are responsible to run the House are that area (backward Ernad area) are very absent. much agitated over this issue. [English] Irequest the Minister of Railways to look into the matter and ensurecompletion of the MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: They are said track renewal work. coming now.

SHRl E. AHAMED (Manjeri): Allies are here in full strength to support the Govern- ment.

[Translation] DEMANDS FOB&&ANTS (GEN- ERAL). 1991-92 - SHRl KALKA DAS: Mr. Deputy Speaker. - Sir, you please direct the Ministry of Defence Government....( Interruptions). [English] [English] x? MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The House SHRl JASWANT SlNGH (Chittorgarh): will take up further discussion and voting on Sir, &old that this-the Demands the Demands for Grants of the Ministry of for Grants of the Ministry of Defence for the Defence. year 1991-92 is of particular importance to our country. Now, Shri Jaswant Singh may speak: Sir in a situation of rapidly transforming. SHRl GEORGE FERNANDES indeed transformed international and inter- (Muzaffarpur): What about the quorum. Sir? nal situation where the boundaries of yesterday's certainties have altered irrevo- SHRl JASWANT SlNGH (Chittorgarh): cably the Annual Report of the Ministry of I won't raise this. Defence for 1990-91makes for vary unhappy reading. Ireally do not know to which period SHR1 GEORGE FERNANDES: It is hot or to what particular difficulties, problems thequestion of raising, but the Minister should and challenges it is referring because Iam at least ensure this. But I am not raising #\. sure the ... R.. .(lntenlrptbns). [Translation] SHRl CHANDRAJEET YADAV (Azamgarh): Why all Congressmen are ab- SHRl RAM PRASAD SlNGH (Vikrarn sent on such an important debate? ganj): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is no [Sh. Ram Pmad Singh] happy leading and Iwill come to the interna- tional part and aspects of it in a very quorum in the House even when such an shortwhile, but if you were to reflect that we important issue pertaining to the defence of are talking about an expenditure d roughly thewuntery Is being discussed inthe House. Rs. 20,000 crores on Defence of which, it is and has been, on an average, about one- third of our Non-Plan expenditure, then wo are talking of very substantial sumsof money, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The bell is repeatedly year after year. But the particular being rung-- year to which we are now addressing our- selves is of specffic and of unusual impor- tance. The present Government has come forward with three new initiatives, the new MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now there is Industrial Policy, the beginnings of a new quorum. The hon. Member Shri Jaswant Fial Policy and a new Trade Policy. I Slngh may continue. submit that when so much is changing in- ternally and when these three new initiatives SHRl JASWANT SINGH: Mr. Deputy have been taken, you can no longer continue Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I would with a Defence Statement or Annual Report Iketo start from the very beginning, because or continue to plough the same furrow as of I had submitted only very few sentences yesteryears. While going through the Annual when the question of quorum was raised. I Report, I was struck by a very small obser- had started by saying that I hold that the vation which illustrates the outdatedness of discussion on the Demandsfor Grants of the it. It is referring to the previous Ministers, it is Ministry of Defence for the year 1991-92 is of referring to Shri Lalit Vijoy Singh, as being particular importance to our country. I sub- the Minister of State. Iam sure this document mitted that in a situation of rapidly trans- was published some months back and haa forming, indeed transformed international only been updated to meet ihe political un- and internalsituations where the boundaries certainties and changes that have taken of yesterday's certainties have altered irre- place. It would have been my expectation vocably and beyond recognition, the Annual from the Minister that at least the Report Report of the Ministry of Defence makes for itself would be updated and made current very unhappy reading. Ido not know to which enough to make the discussion on the period it is referring or to what problems it is Demands for Grants relevant and timely. addressing itself, because it is so out of What is then of particular significance is an synch with everything else that is happening analysis or assessment of the National Se- both internally and internationally. I have curiiy Environment that this Annual Reporl &en said in this Howand the other House has informed us about. h has started and that the Defence Budget is the price that we perhaps rightly by a very short analysis of pay for our foreign policy. I would like to Operation Desert Storm'. I will not quote modify that by submitting that now-adays everything, but il does tell us that: the Defence Budget k the price that we pay naton~forourforeignpolicy,but it isalso the pries that we pay for the mismanagement of 'India together with other like-minded our &mestic poky. countries, had actively worked for bringing about a cessation of hostilities, Sir, Ihad said that the Annual Report of restoring peace and promoting durabh #w Minbtry of Defence mhfor very un- mrity in the region.' Thb is pure fiction and pure myth mak- recurity environment and I commend tho ing because in the context of the Iraq's Government for the recognition af this in the invasion on Kuwait and Operation "Desert paragraph on internal situation and it merit8 Storm', what Iam particularly unhappy about mentioning. la the total irrelevance of the initiative taken by the Government of India, leave abne "There are certain developments that these boastful claims that have been made have cast their shadow on the seewhy here that lndia worked actively for bringing environment of our region. Terrorism, about cessation of hostilities. Not only lndia religious exteremism and ethnic chau- did not work actively, in fad, lndia had no role vinism have fomented separatist ten- to play whatsoever. dencies. In many cases, these have received support from external The very second paragraph of this An- sources...." nual Report of the Ministry of Defence starts with such a fanciful assertion, 1 do not know R is an admission and correct and rightful why one should pluck and go through almost admission. 100 pages of this piece of fictm. R further says: There is a brief mention here in para 3 about the process of detente and what is "Traffic in narcotics has markedly in- happening in the relationship between the creased in our neighbourhood and its twosuperpowers-now only one-that is United coupling with terrorism has created se- States of America and the Soviet Union. I rious problems for national security.' can accept that thidparticular paragraph has been so cutdistanced by the events that But traffic in narcotics has not in~eased have taken place that possibly the very b- only in our neighborhood, lndia is now the gistical aspects of publishing it etc., would transit area in the traffic of narcotics and it necessitate keeping it constantly updated. I would have been better if the Ministry of concede to the Government that the sheer Defence had recognised this problem that velocity of international change and trans- the country faces internally. It also recognises formation that is taking place is such that that the traffic in narcotics or narco-terrorism nobody could have possibly foreseen, leave is now a factor of security and it is an internal abne arranged for it to be published in an factor which is what has led me to add to the annual report of this kind. But this is begging external the internal factor. the question. Because the velocity of trans- formation and international change is so About relations with Pakistan, inevitably rapid, it is all the more necessary that a there is a paragraph. There is a mention here discussion of the security environment that of the support that Pakistan is providing to the country faces today is made meaningful terrorists, subversive elements in Punjab by making it a topical. Ido not want to quote and Jammu and Kashmir. Then, there is also everythhgformthis. But Ido wish to highlight a statement that Pakistan continues to pur- the aspect of proliferation of nuclear weap- sue procurement of military hardware and ons which concerns us. But whereas this technology from other countries far beyond

'S Wofl departs markedly from the previous its legitimate Defence requirements. ' report is the internal, That is what has led me make an assertion that now in our security 'In addition, it has continued with its consideration, the 'internal" has also become clandestine and weapon-oriented afwrain paragraph 5 of the report about nudear programme and its efforts to 363 D6wnarsds for- (m),SEPTEMBER 5.1991 Chemkak & Fertbts. CivrT 364 Aviah & TOU& efc [Sh. Jaswant Singh] with a rapidly transforming and transformed international situation is one more difficulty quire ballistic missiles and technol- that we face when discussing the Ministry of ogy-' Defence.

Ihave quoted this really for one purpose. I Our discussions on this Ministry are would like to know from the hon. Minister of invariably and perhaps inevitably, defused Defence which organisation has carried out the unfocussed. Isay 'inevitably' on purpose this assessment of the security environment and. 'defused' and 'unfocussed' by choice, of the country. What collective thinking, what because there is I submit an absence of input has gone into it, because if one were to clarity of our concepts and this absence of examine this with the annual report of the clarity of concepts is not of today's making. Ministry of External Affairs for example, one tt is a continuing process which repeated would find variations, not merely of details, efforts over a number of years have not yet but of emphasis also. Iam ready to concede clarified. that the security environment assessment of the Ministry of Deferce need not always be There is a second difficulty which is that necessarily that of the Ministry of External we always invariably discuss the Ministry of Affairs. But nevertheless. granting that the Defence with insufficient, always with inad- differences the two different Ministries might equate information. have on the same problem, the question that is begged is, the institutional arrangement I would submit that despite these diffi- that has provided the Ministry of Defence culties, Iwould put it to you. through you to withthisanalysisof the security environment the hon. the Defence Minister that in my that the country faces. That is one of the assessment. the issues confronting the Min- questions that arises out of the Report. istry of Defence today are the following:-

What is thisconcept of national security? 1. What are our security and defence National securiiy is not just a concept of policy perceptions in this transformed world? Defence and it is not my function here in this debate to go into any prolonged analysis of 2. In that altered world, how do we what constitutes national security. Indeed. I manage our defence most efficiently and would find that in the absence of information most cost-eff ectively? What ingredientsought that Ihave, Iam not perhaps even equipped to go into the management of that defence? to go into a detailed analysis or definition of what national security would be. But national The third issue confronting the Ministry security is a much wider and more holistic of Defence and lam not happy that it confronts concept of which the ingredientverybroadly. theMinistry of Defence is the internal situation and not exhaustively, would be the military, within the country and how does the Ministry the 'hternal and also the eoonomic, for ex- of Defence address itself to that internal ample. I think that is where, perhaps, the situation which has now became a very change that the country faces today is so important factor of our total searrii. Ibelieve much marked that, if the total national security that the Ministry of Defence cannot keep concept would encompass within it the mili- itself isolated from that. The fourth issue tary. the international and the economic. related to security facing us is the economic than Isubmit that the nation has never had dimensions of our security particularly in the nachrerse a national security environment context of the total economic crisis that the as we face today. This. when it is combined country is confronted with. The fifth is for 356 ~ernandsfor Grants (o~~)BHAD~A14,191 3 (SAKA)Chernkak & Ferth~,(M 366 1991-92 MI. of MemMin. of clarity because it is an issue that faces us Kashmiri people for the exercise of their four-square internationally and regionally. right etc. etc ..." The fifth issue is: What is the thinking of the Ministry of Defence in relation to A B C Then, very briefly he quotes about the concepts which are the Atomic, Biological nudear aspect which is: and Chemical Warefare concepts in the context of our region? "The issue of Nuclear Non-Proliferation in South-Asia is another complicating Sir, Iwill undertake a brief but a more factor in Pakistan-India relations. A is, detailed examination of all these five issues therefore. necessary to place the issue that Ihave identified. But before Ido that. 1 in its proper perspective..." would like to share with you a quote and this quotation isfrom, an Address to the National Then the Prime Minister of Pakistan DefenceCollege of Pakistan by Miyan Nawaz goes onto explain the view point of Pakistan. Sharif, who is the Prime Minister of Pakistan. Ifound it necessary to briefly make a men- While addressing the National Defence tion of this because most of our military College of Pakistan at Rawalpindion the 6th doctrine, militarythought, military planning is of June he said this. Ihave no doubt that the Pakistan -oriented because the Ministry of Ministry of Defence is aware of this. But what Defence itselfin itsAnnual Report hasspoken struck me was almost the use of the same of improving relations with the People's language both by our Ministry of Defence Republic of China. and by the Prime Minister of Pakistan when assessing the roles and the threats in the Before I go further to a more detailed context of one another. This is what Miyan examination of the five issues that I have Nawaz Sharif has to say. He has stated: presented, there is one additional point that I would leave for the consideration of the 'India's military build-up, development hon. Minister of Defence. No Ministry of of medium-range missiles and the mili- Defence, no Armed Forces of the world can tary potential of its unsafeguarded operate in asituation in which you are placing nuclear programme pose a serious the Indian Armed Forces. There is not a threat to Pakistan's security. The threat single part of the total international border is accentuated by India's refusal to re- that surrounds us except the Rajasthan solve the Kashmir dispute peacefully border that can be called a secure border or and its attempt to suppress the indig- an established, recognised international enous uprising in Occupied Kashmir.. border. and brutal use of force..'Here, one word is illegiblew. No Ministry of Defence and no Armed Forces in the world can be given responsi- It further reads: bilitiesof the kind that we are placingon them in having a situation of either hostility, near 'India has concentrated over 400,000 hostility or potential hostility with almost our military and para-military forces in Oc- entire neighborhood. Our southern periph- cupied Kashmir for this purpose. The eries unhappily are also no longer secured. heavy depbyment of its forces along In such a situation, the task that is given to hkiistan-India border also serves to the Armed Forces, urider the Ministry of heightentension. This cannot, however, Defence, is almost an unattainable task. wevent us from offering moral and po- That is why, it is so important that our con- lkal support to the struggle of the cepts be clear and .we be dear about where [Sh. Jaswant Singh] are really of profound importance to us. Ido not know what the Presidum has decided up the international situation has now brought till early this morning, the two-thirds of the W to. votes that President Gorbachev sought for at least 14 of the 15 republics to virtually be Before Igo to adetailedsubmission, not independent, was not obtained by him. But it very detailed, but a mere elaboration of the is now imminent. The debate is continuing. I iruures that Ihave identified, Ifind it neces- believe that when a shuation has arisen in sa~~to share my views with the hon. Minister the Soviet Union where the building from about what Ifeel are the dimensions of this where Lenin started the Revolution of 1917 transformed world, and what the possible is now seized , the Communist Party of the oonsequences of this could be to us. Iam not Soviet Union is debarred and banned; the going to labour the point of myth-making republics of the Soviet Union now declared about our role in the Gull war. But the Gulf independent, the future of that Union In war has indeed transformed beyond recog- whatever transformedform or shape it migM nition a great many certainties that we were emerge in six months from now, has a dired functioning with up till yesterday and they do nexus with our total securiiy thinking. have security related consequences for us. Iam not going into the aspects of doctrines And not just in a logistical sense; not just and tactical concepts. Iam covering or at- in the sense of the 70 per cent dependence tempting to cover a much wider canvas, like that the Indian armed forces have on Soviet a situation in which the possibility of a West related equipment and Soviet related supplies Asian Peace Conference in October has and spares of that equipment. There are now emerged, a situation wherein Israel is to many question connected with it. Iwill take a 1withtheArabcountries.asituationwherein minute@submittoyou. HastheGovernment the certamties of our Indo-Arab relationship addressed itsell to them? For example, take of which Iraq was a fulcrum, a kind of a just three aspects of the changes that are linchpin has now gone. When those issues taking place in the Soviet Union. no longer obtain. it would be an error of profound dimensions for the Ministry of De- First, in the recent conference of the G fence to continue to harp on yesterday's 7 countries, to which the Soviet Union was a diche. special invitee, the G-7 countries including the Soviet Union had agreed to maintain a The war that has broken out and Ide- register of transfer of weapons, which they liberately chose to call it war that has broken will share with each other. Has the Govem- out in the Balkans, the near certain dis- ment examined the implications of that on memberment of Yugodavia, one of our allies India's defence preparedness or our weapon and founder member of Non-aligned Mwe- supplies? Secondly, when the Republh of ment, the request that is being made by the Soviet Union are coming close to lndo Egypl in Accra that tho Non-Aligned Move- pendence, when questions about unW ment should naw amalgamate itself with the and control over their nuclear arsenal are In Oroup of 77, other voices that have been the fore-front today of the world's ooncem, misod inAccra inthe meetings of the Foreign for us of immediate concern, not fist of an , Minidenr of the Non-Uigned Group, raise immediate concern as of today, but for tho* queotbno which tho Mlnlstry d Defence can past two years, it has been a mottor d no longer nd address Itsell to. concern becausethe stretching atthe8eam of this Union was obvious then what m we The dewkpmentrr in the WitUnion to do. We have r 70 per cqnl dependemon Soviet weapons, weapon systems, spares, thinking. But Iput two more points for tho mmunitbn and supplles and the Sovlet consideration of the hon. Minister. I think Union b going the way of hard currency. there are serious limitations on the indo- , Whether the Soviet Union remains as a pendence and autonomy of our defence union or not, whether weapons manufacture budget making. is distrbuted over the Republics, whether the Republics are going to be independent, Idon't wish to elaborate this point much they would inevitably ask for renegotiations further. It is no great secret that one of the and In that case, where would this 70 per conditionalities of the iMF is cutting back on cent dependence of the Indian Armed forces Defence expenditure. If, in the context of a on weapons, equipment be filled from? Iwill bss of initiative on account of international ray it is every big lacunae. Iask this question developments, in the context cd our being In thecontext of identifyingthesecurity threat. ham-strung on account of internal devebp I also ask it because it is underlined in ments and if there is a third and simuitaneoua importance. By the reports that have ap- difficulty that the country faces which is on peared that about 300 AFEs. possibly T-62s account of the IMF conditionalities... and T-Ms, captured by Saudi Arabia, cour- tesy United States of America, in the cave of MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please con- Saudi Arabia, have been shipped to Pakistan. clude. There will be similar other equipment that will find its way to Pakistan. Pakistan will continue SHRl JASWANT SINGH: I would beg to receive this equipment, lending importance your consideration Sir. Because of this limi- , to the points that I am making, about re- tatbn the autonomy of our Defence budget thinking, the totality dour Gvlf policy and the making is now severely curtailed and the totality of our approach to the Soviet Unbn. Minister of Defence has to share with us hi concern over this aspect. We would There Is then the third aspect, very rqnbe, we appreciate the need to sort important for the Ministry of Defence to ad- out the economic mess-this is not a debate dress itsel to. We had, over the past 44 and on the economic mess-but unless the hon. odd years, become lazy, on account of the Defence Minister shares with us the wn- cettainhy of the Soviet veto that we knew will straints that are placed on him on account of always be there. Should an international IMF conditionalities, he would not be able to rituatbnarise in which l a UN-Paksponsored have our consensus on as important an debate takes place on Jammu and Kashmir, issue as national defence. Consensus is not the Soviet veto would rescue us. h made us merely conformity. Consensus is not merely @. It prevented us from thinking out the agreeing to whatever the Government my& options. It prevented us from working out our II the Government has to get our consensur own security interests to their logical wn- both on the IMF conditionalitis and the need clurions. Iput it tothe hon. Defence Minister for limitations that the Defencebudget making that the certainhy of thio veto when it is no has today, then the hon. Defence Minister bnger there, how will the Government of has to share with us what constraints he is India be addressing itsel to this immediate operating through. 1 end potentialorapossible diff iculty that India fhight fm-These are only some of the Isubmh yet another thought and inevb j comWen~08.I possibly cannot ga into a tably Ihave to leave them as thoughts with more detailed analyma of whd the intema- the hon. Defence Minister. Iurbmil that In 1 -1 akuatbn hudone to transform the this transformed world both internationally j of our defence and recurtry related and Internally it, Iwere to look at the Ministy 371 hnadsfarGrar?Zs (Gm), SEPTEMBER 5.1991 Chemkak & FartiGzem. Cid 372 1991-92 MI. of Def'Min. d [Sh.Jaswant Singh] hon. Defence Minister consider my thought that our Defence thinking has to shift from a of defence;^ problems only from the military policy based on confrontation to security angle and not from any other angle, even through cooperation? then Iwould submit that our reactions today are reactive, and only reactive. Hence our 14.00 hrs. policy has become a reactive policy. Iput it to you that the decade of the 80s is the If the factors are international, regional decade of great loss by the country. It is my and internal, then I think this qualitative belief that till the beginning of the decade of change in thinking will have to come about. the 80s. the country held the strategic ini- Iam not filling in the details. The details are tiative. the country had regionally a position a matter of subsequent examination. But Ido wherein we had value dominance. We had a believe that both globally and nationally, we strategic initiative and we had a value have come to a situation wherein we have to dominance. It is not possible for me to transform our security doctrine, thoughts, elaborate on these concepts. Iwould leave from a security based on confrontation to them as thoughts or seeds of thoughts with security through cooperation. the hon. Defence Minister. It is in the decade of the 80s that we bst this strategic initiative, The first issue that I have identified we bst a position of value dominance in the before the Ministry of Defence is, therefore, region. and criminally, we lost the entire related to this concept of cooperative secu- decade of the 80s and bst the strategic rity. Time does not permit me to analyse this initiative on the nuclear question as well. in great detail, but some advantages of this are obvious. It would be in harmony with the Ihave no time to elaborate these points. global atmosphere that prevails. R would But Ileave these thoughts because the to- certainly be much more cost-efficient and tali of the problems that the Ministry of effective. It would be relevant in the internal Defence faces are essentially inaeasing security angle which confronts the country today. Therefore, Isubmit that if there has to today. Iput it to you that even if applied in the beachange, if we have toaddress ourselves IndoPak context, wherein if we could reas- to the five issues that were identified, then 1 sert ourselves and take the offensive about think the first change that has to come about strategic domination, then a policy of secu- is in our thinking. rity through cooperation could perhaps be of greater use to the country. I put it to the hon. Defence Minister, what about that 'mental shift d gear which There are some other aspects-if I had moves the Ministry of Defence from being more time. I would have dealt with themaf merely a reactive Ministry? What about crucial importance. That is where the nuts moving into agear-shift where we are able to and bolts come. The other point that Ihad strategically and tactically exploit opportu- identified was management of defence. In nPminstead of merely reacting to situations management of defence, I will put my as they arise? What about thinking and thoughts to the Hon. Minister of Defence. thought being applied to the possibilities of The very first aim is that you must be clear reshapingthisstrategicenvironment that the about your national aims. What are the na-, cowrtry today faces? tional aims? What is it that the nation wishes to achieve. It is only after the national aims I put it that in this decade of 90s, and-in are clear tha you can have a security con- the context of wha! is happening, would the cept and only then you can distil the defence 373 Ddsfor GranPs (Gen.),BHADRA 14,191 3 (SM)ChemicaEs & Fwtikers, Cid 374 199 1-92 Mn. of Defe~~aeMin. ,of Avktbn & Tourism& policy out of it. Therefore, it is vital that there been made about the working of Ministry of should be long-term planning in relation to Defence being hamstrong on account of matters connected with the Ministry of De- their being a specific financial advisor to the fence. Here, I would share the advice and Ministry of Defence, as some kind of an views of my good friend who has earlier held overseeing ambassador of the Ministry of this responsibility. He has been though in Finance. If you think in terms of greater and name only a Minister of State for Defence-de greater decentralisation, in termsof financial facto he was a Ministry of Defence. I share matters in other respects, Ican say that time his view entirely that the Ministry of Defence, has come for the Ministry of Defence also to or the Government rather, must receive a decentralise the decision making in financial single-point advise on matters relating to terms and if necessary, give the three Armed security from the Ministry of Defence. What Forcestheir respective Budgets and let them are the mechanisms for this single-point manage their Budget by themselves. I can advice? Here again, Ifind the Annual Report go into an endless discussion and details on of the Ministry of Defence as a very unhappy this point but I will give it again as only a document. The Hon. Ministry of Defence suggestion. would find that there is a reference made here to an organisation called the National I know that this point comes up and Securiiy Council. The wordings of that therefore, Iwill make only a brief reference to paragraph are as if the National Security it, that is, about the business of teeth to tail Council is still working. ratio. I think this is an outdated concept. In today's warefare, there is no such thing as Ihad something to do with thesetting up teeth to tail. A much better pharaseology and of the National Security Council. In the one much more accurate would becombatforces. and only meeting of this National Securiiy combat support forces and logistic support Council that took place. I put it to the then forces. Now, no combat element can func- Prime Minister that in India, we have a very tion unless there is combat support to it and high rate of infant mortality. It would be my simultaneous logistic support to it. While I hope that this new-born NSC would also not am on this point, I will make one more go the way of the routine average of infant suggestion to the Ministry of Defence. mortality in the country. I am afraid, this NSC, socalled, met only once and has not Please do away with this artificial divi- met ever thereafter. Ido not know why the sion within the Ministry of Defence and the Minister of Defence has taken the trouble to totally of the Government of India and par- include a reference to the NSC in this ticularly, in the context of the Ministry of document as if the NSC as a body was Defence regarding Plan and nonPlan ex- existing. It is non-existent. Therefore, this penditure. It isonlythenthat these arithmetics whole question of an institutionalised that come pretending before the Defence mechanism, which would enable the Gov- Budget will begin to make more sense. Sir, I ernment to receive single-point advice, after believe and again Iam in harmony with my advice has flown into it from diverse and good friend, Shri Arun Singh. Let Defence variious channels, acquires greater impor- procurement become a separate function of tance. the Ministry of Defence all together, Please separate the civil services. separate the Sir, time has now come for a fiscal Armed Forces and separate yourself from decentralisation of financial powers in the day to day pre-occupation with Defence management of Defence. A great deal of procurement. We know thedamage that has criticism here and in the earlier years has been cawed because for years together. 975 lbr Osanb m),SEPTEMBER 5,1991 Chemictcb 6 FeRiihm CivJ 376

(Sh. Jaswant Slngh] fare. the importance of missiles and anti- missiles, air power, importance d recon- attempts were made to cover up the enlor- naissance in a mobile warfare or the ques- mow scandal of Bofors. But on deleterious tins which are very relevant to us, that Is, Meet that Bofors has resutted in is that it has the relative importance of Advance Early rtopped the decision-making processes in Warning Aircraft Versus Fighters or the the Ministry of Defence. question of MBT versus Advance Light he- licopters. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF STEEL (SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV): But now it is too late. [SHRIMATI MALlNl BHATTACHARYA in SHRI JASWANT SINGH: It is not a the &aid question of late. I have always held this view ...( lntenyrtions)...you cannot. But that These are very technical and very in- b precisely begging the question because if volved questions. And I think Demands for youcover up ascandal and then you say that Grants is perhaps not the right occasion to having covered up the scandal, you will raise all these points. Ileave them asthoughts cover it up year after year that will make the because these are some of the questbns deckdon making processes paralysed. It is that have arisen as a consequence of the nat good for my good friend, my wlleague. Gulf War. the hon. Member from Tripura to laugh sadomically at what has been caused in Madam, there isone other consequence consequence. You are guilty. You are not and Ifind il necessary to share my concern free from guilt at all. with the Ministry of Defence. Ibelieve that with the loosening of the Soviet Union, the Sir, Iam suggesting an escape now for Southern RepuMiof the Soviet Union which the Ministry of Defence because Ministry of are largely Islamic, will come under the in- Defence can possibly not afford to have a fluence either of Iran or of Iraq. It is a matter situationwhereindecision making isdeleyed for us to reflect t@n and to start reflecting year after year, particularly in issues relating from now. Whether it is Uzbekistanor Tajikii to security and weapon system. That is why, nor Kazakhstan or Turkmenia or Kirghiiia. Isuggest that time has come for the Ministry change is coming about. We would do ow- d Ddenm to think in terms of having a selves a grave harm if we did not recognb beperate procurement wing all together. that change in the Central Assian concept of India's security that is now imminent. Please SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: When recognise what it would do to our securify W werybodV bemman expert in gun, then such achange went in a wrong direction. So, that is what happens to the country. we must apply ourselves to that from naw onwards. SHRl JASWANT SINGH: Regarding Odence IUD, thii b a subjed which is very Ihave taken a great deal of time. IwUI close to my heart and Iwant to spend a great just share with you a thougM and condude. dddtime on it. But Ihave no time. So, Iwill Iwas fortunate to chair a Committee In the Irweil at hepresent moment. Iwill also nat last Parliament which addressed itself to go inso the questions that have arisen about =me Impartant questbns relating to the tbotactkallessonsQfth8GulfWarorwhat Ministry d Defence. lt is not customary to th. Gulf War teaches npborff mobile war- refer to the work that that CommHtee had 377 Demands for Grants (Gen.),BHADRA 14,191 3 (SAKA)Cbemicals8 Fert17irets, CivJ 378 1991 -92 Ah. of Defence Min. of Aviah 8 Tourism etc done and Iwill not go into the details of it. But had introduced-the command and staff there were two subjects that that Committee streams and the differentialin their retirement examine. One was the question of Force age and please examine what it has done to levels, manpower, policy and management the morale and job satisfaction of this'par- of that manpower. On the question of Force ticular category of officers. level, Ijust leave some aberrations with you and then Icome to speck suggestions. As Madam, Imust share with the Ministry of Ihad occasion to mention this to you earlier, Defence a particular concern about the off ic- the Naval Dockyard and the Mazgaon Dock- ers deficiency, both in the Air Force and in yard are within a stone's throw. But in the the Army. I am given to understand, my Naval Dockyard, you do not pay your per- figure could well be wrong, that the offiirs sonnel what you pay tothose in the Mazgaon deficiency in the Army is about'30,000 to Dockyard. In the Mazgaon Dockyard, they 33,000. What has gone wrong; why does can go on strike but in the Naval Dockyard, such a deficiency exist; are our recruiting they cannot go on strike. You are duplicating processesto be blamed or is the iiMmaterial efforts and wasting resources. not coming? It needs to be examined. In an Air Force Squadron, instead of the estab- Then, what is the ratio between off- lished complement that ought to be there, shore and on-shore in the Indian Navy? It is there are barely 11 to 12 pilots. Please not a question of whether it ought to be a examine that. Blue Water Navy, whether we ought to dominate what. First let us start by examin- I am now on the question of defence ' ing the off-shore and on-shore ratio and see land. The Ministry of Defence is possibly. whether it is the best and the most economic after the Ministry of Railways, the largest ratio. I am given to understand that the land owner in the country.The hon. Defence number of combatant and noncombatant Minister sits literally on hundreds of thou- Airforce personnel per combat aircraft in sands of acres of prime land. A Committee India is 140. In Israel it is only 38. Why is it has done this work. I would not go into the that we need 1401 You have Hindustan details of what this Committee had done. I Aircrafi Limited and you also have the Base had the privilege of exarninlng this whole Repair Depot at Kanpur. Do you need both of question of defence land range them? Can they not be integrated somehow reorganisation etc-what can be done about in these days of difficuhy? these defence lands-in great detail. Iwould request the hon. Defence Ministerto address Ifind the whole business of promotions himsell to this particular point because in very unhappy. Ifind it unhappy that promo- this reorganisation and reform of defence tiom to the highest ranks, whether of the lands you will find that you are sitting on e Army. Navy or the Air Force, should become gold mine and if you reform it properly, issues either of contention. or of litigation organise it properly, a great many of your and worst of all, of public controversy. Iwill current economic difficukies if not sohrod not go into details of specific cases or indi- would certainly be mitigated. Fwl names. But Iwould request the Min- -her of Defence to address himself to this Iwill conclude, Madam, by making just question and examine the number of court five recommendations. There is one brief, cases that have come up lately, largely re- parochialpoint which Imentioned to the hon. king to promotions. Why are they taking Defence Minister earlier. In the Shahgarh place? Please alsoexaminethis wholevexed bulge of Rajasthan, there is a belt roughly 30 question of two stroamsthatthe Indian Army km. wMe and almost 100 km. long which is 3m ~JWI&lkw (Oan), SEPTEMBER 5,1991 Uwd& 8 Fatbts, Civl 380 199142Mnd~~d Avlietftns ~ourismk~ ~h'~aswantSingh] sion, benefits, etc. which we have discusad over the past two days and the benefiito the Wually in unadministeredterritory. Ishowed exServicemen relating to pension will not hbn the map. He Is aware of it. The BSF, be resolved finally or fully unless you have a rearrily forces are put 30 to 35 km inside the comprehensive National Manpower Polky. International boundary. Between the BSF Unless you combine this Manpower Policy post and international boundary, it is the with a detailed examination of you for# smugglers raj that now prevails. Being a level, this problem will continue to surface. desert, there is very little inhabitation there. And, ii you find that Narco-terrorism is a Sir, my final recommendation to the factor leading to national security problem, hon. Defence Minister remains, for him to then please examine this aspect. make public to the House, what we have collectively and all of us agree to with him My requests, in conclusion would be; and with hon. the Prime Minister in regard to firstly, either please revive this N.S.C. or do the claim that has been pending fora very not mntinue to play this joke on us about bng time about the demands of various Ex- having it on the book and yet it not doing Serv'kemen's Leagues for benefits to Ex- anything. If the National Security Council is Selvicemen and improvement of thek an- lo be there, then form it. If it is not to be there, ditions. please saap it. But, let us know what you intend to do with it. I think time has me Madam, Iam very grateful to you for all when we need a White Paper from the this time given to me. Ministry of Defence. This is an oft-repeated Wuest, but Ido not make it lightly, make it MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Yellaiah Nand. in a# earnestness and in all seriousness. We He Is not present. need from the Ministry d Defence a White Paper gMng, in detail, aH aspects: what Shri Kodikkunil Suresh. He is absent. consequences will all these international, htemal logistic etc. cause to our security Shri Shravan Kumar Patel. becauseof thesechanges. Madam, we need 900 a Whiie Piper on this. SHRl SHRVAN KUMAR PATEL (JatfaIpur): ~espected-&d~,"%&g %I My good friend Mr. Arun Singh has ardent believer in Gandhian and given a very fine report as the Chairman of a staunch supporter of the principles of non- he Cammiltee on Defence Expenditure. I alignment and world order, Iam basically an request, Madam. that this Report of the idealist and an optimist so far as the questkm Commitlee on Defence Expenditure, if not in of bringing peace and order is concerned to ha tpqality, certainly the Wirecommenda- this world. dkrrr of ihii Report, be shared with the Houre when the hon. Defence ~intstr~gives Our late Prime Minister ShriRajhrGandN reply. Let w examine that and let us also abo conceived of a world free of nuclear 'have the Government's response to the weapons by the end of the twentieth csnSury rocutnmendations of thb Committee on and it is indeed encouraging that the msj#; Meme Expenditure as chaired by Shri world powers have, in the last few yeen, Afufl sinoh made a podtive effortto make thb world a better place to Hve in. I pul&to tho hon. Odenoe Minktor that d~pmbbmstMwefacs~utpen- that direction. However, before the world Defence preparedness for Defence pre- roaches a stage free of strategic arms, we paredness is the sheet another of our free- *cannot ignore that designs of some of the dom. Thusan overriding national priority has powers which constantly strive to disturb the to be accorded to Defence expenditure. It peaceof the world in pursuit of their ambitions. goes without saying that any imminent ex- Only last year the international community ternal threat has to be dealt with first re- had to deal with a highly ambitious and gardless of the cost factor. expanding power in Iraq. The culmination of that misadventurewas the Operation Desert The present Budget however comee In Storm. The military disaster that Iraq has the wake of extreme economic pressures suffered as a result of United States-led arising, besides the normal factors, from the attacks neutralising within hours Iraq's sub Gulf War, the depletion of our balance of stantlal air force, nearly the same sue as payments, the erosion of confidence in our ours, underlines the compelling need for a economy abroad and the consequent de- merching reappraisal of our military planning. valuation of the rupee.

Soviet Defence Minister DimitriYazov's Coming as it does from such unprec- statement that his country has to review its edented economic crisis, the Defence Bud- entire air defence system in the light of the get has been pegged at just Rs. 16,350 Gull War is very important in this context. crores against the last year's expenditure of Lke Iraq, India's potential for air combat and Rs.15,750 crores. defence is based largelyon Soviet equipment. In real terms it may appear to be a Thus the picture that has emerged from decrease over the last year's allocation; since the Gulf War is that countries having supe- sustained and healthy growth rate of rior Air striking power dictate the course of economy is absolutely indispensable for war. Henceforth India will have togivegreater maintaining an adequate level of defenu emphasis on harnessing our air striking ca- "Nothing" say Enpls 'is more dependent on pabilities vis-a-vis the recruitment, mainte- economicconditions then precisely the Army nance and deployment of a large size human and the Navy." Inevitably, every year during army. the Budget Session views are expressd about the affordability and adequacy of our Another lesson that we have learnt from Defence allocatbns. Much, of course, de- the Gulf War is the military powercan best be pends on the criteria used to determine tho used and made most effective by pooling all external threat perceptions. wailable resources from which follows the need fore unified command. General Norman According to a British General 'No Schwarzkopf exerdsed overall control of all country or alliance can consider bet ed- the forces of coalition partners. equably defended unless it has a range of capabilities available to its opponents.' The difference with the way the Indian Translated in terms of India's geopolitiorJ Armd Forces operate is best illustrated by situation it means that we cannot consider report of the late Air Chief Marshal P.C. ourselves adequately defended unless wo Lars recollectbns wherein he categorically can match full range of capabilities of our Writes about the lack of integrated planning. potential adversaries, namely, Pakistan +nd India is a vast country having an enormously China at least singly if not collectively. Yd It bng border and avast sea coast and we can is Indeed relevant that for detqrmining afford my sledcness in ward .to our dfordability the main criteria should bo in 383 Ddfur Grants (Gen), SEPTEMBER 5.1991 Chemkak & Fertikets Cid 384 1991-92W.d WemMi of [Sh. Shravan Kumar Patel] a key role in making South East Asia a nudear free zone. Perhaps the recent visit of terms of human devebpment. Iquote 'The Gen. Rodrigues to USA could throw some military expenditure of a nation cannot be light to this aspect. considered affordable unless certain mini- mum standards of health, education and I agree with the views of the hon. wetfareofthe people have been met.'Looking Member, Jaswant Singh. There are certain to these parameters the present allocation developments that have cast their shadow seems to be rathei adequate. on the security environment of this entire region. Terrorism, religious extremism and Viewing the situation in the present ethnic chauvinism have fomented separatist context we see acontinuing effort on the part tendencies and in many cases they have of Pakiitan in augmenting and reinforcing its received support in lndia from our military power. Besides acquiring M-11 mis- neighbouring countries which is greatly siles from China it is acquiring at least 40 F7 regretable. fighter planes from China and striving to secure the second package of 60 F-16's Traffic in narcotics has markedly in- from USA. Inthiscantext. ourscientistsand creased in our neighbourhood and its cou- technicians deserve our heartiest congratu- pling with terrorism has created serious lations for successfully testing Prithvi, Agni, problems for national security. Trishul. Akash and Nag missiles. One dis- turbing news is that some 300tankscaptured Perhaps the formation of National Se- intact from Iraqi retreating forces are some- curity Council could play a pivotal role in how finding their way to Pakistan. Indian times to come, taking into account linkages Government should take necessary action. between the evolving external situation in the political military and economic field and As an aftermath of Glasnost and our domestic situation. Perestroika the process of increasing co- operation between USA and USSR contin- The Ordnance Factoriis in lndia need ues to gather momentum. Fundamental to be urgently technologically upgraded. The political changes are occurring in the East process of modernization should start at the European countries. Because of these mo- earliest. With the possibilities of spares mentous changes the military role of the procurement from the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact has ended. The recent devel- earstwhile Eastern Block countties being opment in Russia are further going to have a converted to Hard Currency we must em- far-reaching impad on gbbal non-proliera- bark on crash reorientation programme to tbn of nuclear weaponry provided their service the Soviet Block equipment in terms nudear submarines do not fall in wrong of earning foreign exchange. These same hands. Even the conventional weapons and factories can meet the requirements of a forces in Europe will be reduced to signifi- phenomenal gbbal market wherein other cantly lower level. countries are facing similar problems as India, but they do not have the infrastructure The recent signing by France and China to meet their defence requirements. of nuclear nongroliferation programme should induce lndia to fdbw suit subject of This has become even more necessary aouse to the fact that Pakistan gives up all with the recent trend of events in the USSR ib designs and efforts to building a nudear weapon. Iam sure the Super Power can play The defence production factories aS Jabalpur should be kept foremost in mind civilian empbyees. In this regard. I had a while deciding upon the modernisation plan consultation with the Attorney General, Mr. so as to safeguard the interests of over Soli Sorabjee when we were in the Govem- 40,000 Government empbyees there. ment and he had told us that a reasonable t distinction can very clearly be made. The Jane's Defence Weekly of 24th August tenureof Jawanor Army man is muchshorter 1991 clearly quotes that Soviet scientists than the tenure of the civilians. Infact, forthe who visited lndia recently have suggested Jawan, it is only 17 or 18 years and it a very that the missile systems could beoverhauled short tenure of employment. So, theduration using the existing material in lndia in our of employment opportunity is small. The risk factories. is much higher. Certainly, the last risk that one takes is when one goes to the Army or Inthe end, Iwould like to state that lndia the Air Force or the Navy. Also, the time of being a peninsula has vast coastline with an stay away from his family, you have to enormous exclusive economic zone. This calculate in the defence service. area is going unexpbitedwhich we can only ill afford in the context of a growing popula- So, the hardships are much greater tion. An area where defence efforts will have than any other service. direct spin offs in the economic sphere is in maritime and ship building industry. The At the same time, even in the Constitu- Research and Development wing may be tion, it is given that the President of lndia is suitably directed to formulate an action plan the supreme commander of the force. This is in this respect. a very very special provision. This specific C provision itsetf distinguishes this force from Isupport the Demands for Grants. the other.

Iwant to assure the hon. Minister that if any legislation is required or anything of that

SHRl-I_ _VISHWANAW _ P-@T-WflEH sort is required to protect the ex-servicemen, (Fatehpur): Thank you Madam for giving me w are ready to cooperate with the Govem- this opportunity. ment and the Government can bring a leg- islation where there can be no doubt about Before Icome to the general issues, I their separate classification. want to take the issue of the pension of ex- servicemen. This is something which is agi- In this regard, the National Front Gov- tating the ex-servicemen for quite a bng ernment had taken a decision in October time. And recently the Opposition leaders 1990 to give benefits of pension to the ex- met the Prime Minister on his invitation and servicemen.The CCP had taken thedecision the hon. Defence Minister was also there. of giving benefits from sepoy to subedar Here, on the fbor of the House, I would major level.The Government had in mind to pointedly want to put this issue. give it to all the oficen also. The point was that at that time do we hold backthisdecision The ex-senricemenhavebeen agitating of giving benefits from sepoy to subedar J6r 'one rank one pensbn* for quite some major who constitute more than 90 per cent time. The usual argument that was being of the ex-servicemen, till we take the final given is that it will not be possible to make a decision in resped of the officers also or we reasonable distinction between ex-service- announce this and then process in respect of men and the other Government employees, the officers. We took a decision to announce [Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] clarification is coming forth very dearly and categorically that the benefits to the ex- what we have already processed and the servicemen will be not less than what had Government's announcement was made already been decided, it will not be possible after the CCP's decision. Then the package for the Janata Dal to further get into any br the officers was also being processed. committed or any other proposal of this na- The commitment of the Government for the ture because this is the minimum assurance dkomwas also made clear through a press that we look forward on the floor of the release on behag of the Government that House. Governments may come and Gov- whenever is finalised for the officers, they ernments may go. But any assurance given also will get the benefits from the same date on the floor of the House has much greater aotherranks. Here Iwould request the hon. weight. This is what we have understood. tl Defence Minister that he should make it there is any difference in understanding dear on the floor of the House that whatever between the hon. Minister and what I am th proposals he may have in this regard, no saying, it may beclarified. But this is what we no occount the benefb to the ex-service- demand on the floor of the House today. The men should be less than what had already announcement must come right now from been decided by the National Front Gov- the Defence Ministerthatthe benefits will not ernment. This is just the minimum. In fact, I be less then what had already been decided would bdc upon you to improve it. When all upon. faults are being found, Iwill be happy to find MIO more fault here also and then an im- Now coming to the general debate, provement is made in this. Here also it has though there is a 4 per cent increase, a been our understanding that this is the in- nominal increase, inthe budget provisionsof tention of the present Government that in no the Defence Ministry, if we take care of wt$y the benefits will be less to the ex- gbbal inflation and devaluation. in real terms renkemen than what the National Front there is a cut in defence budget. We know Owemment had decided upon. that there is an economic hardship. We are in diffiilt times. But import of real cut in real Iwant to state it deadyon the fkorof the terms should be fully understood. I will Howe that in matters d public interest there elaborateon thisas Idealwith various points. ir no question of secrecy because we are all concerned with a matter in which the ex- Here it is necessary that a holistic view amvicemen are emotionally involed and so is needed when it comes to the defence and dw all d us. May I state that from the security and we cannot take only a fiscal mooting we had with the Prime Minister in approach to it. Security is not merely now a the preronco of the Defence Minister, we matter of the Defence Ministry, because of dearly understood and we were given the international environment, foreign policy, ruurance that the bonefib that will accrue eaonomk situation, various social forces in b the ex-servicemen will not be less than the country, any elements of alienation that what the National Front Government had maybe taking place in any part of thecountry, to give them? Here also we were drugs and their connectbn with terrorism @on the ruwrancs that a statement to this and-alsoof clandestineoperations. We have dl& would bo mode on the floor of the now come across BCCI. So, now the defence Hourebythe DefencoMlnister. Ibok forward of the country and its security is no longer b thdmment and thatdarlicatbn on the with one Ministry. Therefore. it is necessary lbar of the House. Iwant k make it clear on to take a holistic view, an integrated view and k)ult d the Jan- Dal that unless this for thb propose it is necessary that the ooncept dthe NationalSecurity Coundlthat only to react to a securii threat, but also was approved by the National Front Gov- what the positive initiative we should take. ernment should be carried forward and as So, here it is necessary to take a holistic Shri Jaswant Singh just now said that it view. Not only the Defence Ministry but ev- should be made operative. It is also neces- erybody will have to be involved and that is ray because the way the Government runs. why we made theconcept of NationalSecurity the Minkter changes, the Prime Minister Council. It should be underthe Prime Minister changes and even the Chiefs of Staff also who can coordinate with all the Ministries change because there tenure is about two or and real decisions could be made. two and a half years. So, there is no memory bank today, no continuity is there-and with Now, along with this security, we have the individuals their cannot be changes of also to take into account a new form of threat poli. Now, this is what we are being sub- of low level insurgency. No;@, low level in- jected to and the policies are falsified. So, it surgency we are facing in Jammu and Kash- h all the more necessary to have a National mir and Punjab. Ithink in our assessment of Security Council. It wasconsidered that it will how to deal with this, it is not the Defence not be above the Cabinet. It was decided Ministry alone that can deal with it. the Home within the Cabinet that the National Security Ministry has to be involved, the economic Council will be there, a Planning Policy Ministrieswill have to be involved, the political Committee in which Chiefs will be involved leadership will have also to be involved. So and a permanent Secretariat thereof which the real threat today requires a collective will provide the necessary material to the responsibility. Also this low level insurgency, NationalSecurity Councilas well as Planning although it poses a threat which we have not .Policy Committee. faced in earlier wars or conflicts, is what will happen behind the lines. I suppose there So, here Iwould request the hon. Min- should be an analysis of this and a thinking ister to make a statement to this effect that on this asto howwe meet such acontingency. National Security Council will be made op erative because that is necessary to meet All this has now become necessary to the challenges of security that we have. weave into a long-term plan and find out solutions for it. At the same time, it is necessary to have an assessment of the threat perceptbn for a Along with this, the threat perception b bnger period. Because of this flux in the also of weapon acquisition poli. We do not Government, Isuppose, every one is more have a weapon acquisition poliwhich will concerned about the immediacy and the fit into the contours of our assessment of immediate and what during his tenure will be threats and how do we respond to it. What the possible things that will crop up, perhaps, happens today? The budget allocation is the long-term perspective is lost. Therefore, made and the various Chiefs arealbttedthat defence plan of 15 years for the minimum money-the Army, the Navyandthe Air Force- becausethat is the life of ourweapon system in acertain proportion, which has been going also would be the appropriate time frame to on. In that way the money is distributed. But assess the various threats-not only assess- no integrated view is taken. What will be the pent of securiiy threat, but there should be optimum mix?The same money can buy you ffban assessment of what our goals are tanks. It can also buy you aeroplanes. It can now, what positively we want to achieve? also buy you missiles. Now, what is the We certainly want to achieve peace in this proper mix inthe threat environment that we region. How do we achieve that? So, it is not have? Do we need to put more of aircrafts or 391 Demands for crants (en.), SEPTEMBER 5,1991 Chernkak & FatrZizers, CivJ 392 1M1-92 Ah. of Defence Min of [Sh. Vii~w~athPratap Singh] public sector investment. While money has ' been put in and we need these units for our acornbinationof missiles or of tanks? Which self-reliance, budgetary provision for pur- will be the best combination? Now, this ex- chases is not there. So. these public sector ercise is not done. So, an integrated view units are going in the red or just do not have has to be taken and this is what is very orders. lt is not the private sector which will neussarybecause we have seen in the Gulf buy their products. So. where do they go? In war. Now it is technological war. So. just this how do we match? When we put in a mechanically going on the way we are going public sector unit, I think a longer-term on-will not do. We have to take the new commitment of the Government will be reality into account because we have seen necessary as to its purchases so that our technological upgradation, technological public sector units in the Defence do not surprises across the border. How do we become losing and redundant units. At the respond to it? This is what concerns the same time. the spin off benefits of space present budget. research, of atomic energy and also of De- fence, should flow to the economy. So, in a The cut has come in R&D. The cut in way, for strengthening the economy, the RBD will mean ten to fifteen per cent cut. Let contribution from the Defence Ministry is us see what does this budget really mean. there. USSR has been one of our very reliable friends. Even today our friendship is as firm One thing now we should take note of is as ever and we must cultivate it further. But how do we respond to what we now see as there the situations are changing. They have daylight of the nuclear capability of Pakistan. all the good reason. They all will stand by India But. at the sametime, with the economic Ithink it is time that we recognise that changes that are taking place and with all even the U.S. Administration has not been that is happening many times, it is now the able to give a certificate under the Preslar question of whether at the same rate the Law that Pakistan does not have nuclear supplies of spares and all that will be capability or nuclear weapon. For that sake, available.That has come on one side. The money has also been denied to Pakistan. I other side is that withour balance of payment think it is time that we cannot close our eyes problem and also the availability with the to this fact. It is much better if we openly say: West, how much will be there, because we Yes, Pakistan does have nuclear capability. knm hat there are politiil considerations Pretences in this matter are not going to help when it comes to arms supply. Then what is us nor it will be clarifying our responses. By the answefl Except self-reliance in these accepting the fact that Pakistan does have matters and the strengthening of our R&D, nudear capability- it is dear as daylight-now there is no other answer. And precisely that even U.S. realised that if it did not have it, it is where the cut has come. I think this is could not certainly certify as such. something very dangerous and it should be atqpd. Any delay in Arjun tank or LCA will Now where are we? We are living in be much more costlier in the long run, oblivion. Ido not know how the Government whatever savings we may try to do at this will make a response. What will be the re- juncture. sponse? Iam not saying that we should get into a nuclear race. At the very outset, Iwant Coming to public sector units in the to make it very clear. But the fact and the Doha, with these budget cuts, what is reality have to be recognised and an open happening? Lol of money has gone into dialogue on that basis with Pakistan will be 393 Demands for Grants (Gen.),BHADRA 14,1913 (SAICA)Chemricals & FeRlizes, CivJ 394 1991-92 Ah. of DdemMin. of Avhh& Tourism etc. more realistic rather than trying to put it should go on. And then we can jointly put under carpet and trying to behave as if pressure on other countries who have nuclear nothing happened. capability and whose weapons can reach the sub-continent. And then we can fall into At the same time it is very clear; once arrangement on non-use of nuclear capabil- this reality is understood, there is a radical ity against each other. change in the strategic situation. Conven- tional weapons and conventional warfare Now, in this situation, while on the side have no meaning. How do we face this of Pakistan in the long-term certainly we situation ? I would like know from the hon. have to aim at finding more practicalsolutions Defence Minister whether he could assure and it can be more sagacious for us that our that the country will not be faced with a relations improve and the ultimategoalshould position of disadvantage in any symmetry be in that direction, but the realities in between of this nature. At the same time, we should have to be taken note of. Ithink the security also enter into a dialogue of oonfidence- environment is very important that we improve building. What will this lead to ? Once this our relations with China which we started position is clear that we do not go into nuclear and we continue to make efforts in that race pact, a dialogue of confidence-building direction and it was a good sign that China will be needed. Because the economic com- and lndia agreed to pull their forces on the pulsions of both sides will be so harsh that I border because if there is no intention on think there should be more realistic approach either side to try to occupy territory, there is to ourforeign policy between each other and no point of heavy concentration of troops on from measures of confidence building to the Sino-Indian border and the positive measuresof reduction of arms. As everybody progress that has been made on either side, knows, nuclear war cannot be won. It is not I think we should continue with China. The worth fighting. This logic will bring us closer whole security environment changes once to reality and also once we openly recognise with China we have our relations improved the fact that Pakistan does have nuclear and for our security I think that should be capability. there will be international pres- Agenda No. 1 of our foreign policy of im- sures; it will not be able to put cover on provement of relations with China Pakistan and to desist from this path. With USSR already we have got rela- Coming to N.P.T.,I want to put a poser tions, they have to be further strengthened. to those who have been trying to pressurise Certainly it does concern when 11 missiles lndia to sign the N.P.T. ? What is N.P.T. are transferred to Pakistan and there is now ?What are you forcing us ? Ithink it will lead talkof co-productionwith Pakistan. Ithink we to much healthier and more realistic debate. should use our offices and our diplomacy Ithink the objection should not be of nuclear there and try to cancel this and see that it race between the two countries but should does not further increase. be towards agreement to non-use of nuclear Capabilityt against each other and non-first- Regarding U.S., I think we have a strike of nuclear weapons. Ithink there was problem of US arms reaching Pakistan and some dialogue earlier for this purpose, for that has been our problemfor a long time and telling each country that its atomic installa- the country will be telling them, that is one of tions should not strike on the other. Ido not the serious problems that we face. But we know how much progress has been made or have noticedthat there has been ashift in US whether Pakistan has given the details position so far J.B K, is concerned, and I thereon etc. I think pressure on that side think there is a better appreciation in the (Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] that we have, we shduld be able to expbitthe opportunities that would open up on this mme that they are now talking about talks. account to our advantage. So bilateral solutions should come.

The interest of US in curbing narcotics I think we should try to cooperate because Then, Iwant to say one thing about ex- here narmtics laundered money adversely. servicemen. The National Front Government This is a nexus which is a nexus which is a decided that 75 percent of the personnel real security threat for us and US interest in would be drawn to Rashtriia Rifles from the stoppge of narcotics should be watched. ex-servicemen. lt was a very good proposal Uhimately it is the US that is doing and Ithink where the ex-servicemen would have had we should divert their interest in terrorism an opportunity for re-employment, because that they have. many times, we have sent either poiiceorthe Army to States like Punjab, Kashmir and These are the points which, 1 believe. Assam. So, the Rastriya Riles could have we should take note of. Now, Ithink with filled this need and Iwould request the hon. USSR, in the new situation, identlying the Minister that the Rastriia Rifles concept coproductDn will be a more fruitful line than should be pursued with because that will the supplies from one side. That will be the give pbopportunities to the ex-servicemen. healthier approach and I think the USSR would also be interested in coproduction. I Lastly, I want to say that the Nobel think we improve the relations with USSR on Company which owned the Bofors Company the one side and ours with China and China has now been taken over by theGovemment and USSR on the other side bilaterally. This of Sweden. M the Government of lndia does can be a basis of our future securii frame- apply pressure, I think, much of the infor- work. When I say 'security', I mean not mation that the Government of lndia need8 tormol arrangements with any Bloc etc. could be forthcoming. In a short duration, we CeRPinly not That is not what Imean. But could freeze the Swiss Bank accounts. Even certainly an improvement of relations be- in the Philliiinescase, they were not ableto tween the three wil have a stabilising effect get the documents of Macros, but we could in this area, in thii region, and thii abne we succeed intwocourse against AE. Senrb. should aim at. Wth in a few months we could get the documents of the A.E. Services with us Now, after the bipolar world evaporating, which has Jordanian connections and also we have seen that the US as one force has we could get the secret part of the Swdih meand is exercising its mudpower of Audit Bureau Report. Our blacklisting of the money and arms and all that and trying to Bofors had started telling on them and had impose its will. That is one of the fears that started showing cracks in the Bofors. Now, we have. But still as I visual'i, there will be with the new management in Government, fieroo economic armpetitii between US why should we pay for anything or pay for the and Europe, and US and Japan. The eco- sins of the earlier management ? This is tho micsanctions will be there and I don't correct time and if the Government @lea think it is going to be reduced in the near pressure, further information on Bofors would kAwo. come. Ilook forward to an assurance from the hon. Defence Minister on thb account. It b these tensions that will contnthueto @ve w hayad in tho new oriintation With these words, Iroitento d Ibok toward to assurance on the ex-servicemen full of people who are ageing. But the fact of kr the spirit in which we had a dialogue with the matter is that these 50,000 people who the hen. Defence Minister. are coming out of the Services every year at 7 the age of 40 years of below 40 even are '3 sSHRl INDERJIT GUPTA (Midnapore) : trained people and are disciplined people. Mr. Chairman, Sir, a very wide canvas has Perhaps they are the most disciplined group been covered by the wntributions to this of people inthecountry today. Ihave to admit debate which have been made by some of it. We have to think where they are to go and the eminent speakers on this side of the how they are to maintain themselves and House, particularly. (Intemrptbns) As far as their families. In the case of civilians, there is the question of ex-servicemen is concerned generally some sort of a retiring age and the which which has been very much in the headlines age of superannuation is fixed and they in the last few weeks and which has caused retire at that age. Here, there is nothing d a considerable amount of public agitation that kind. with all parties, Ithink, irrespective of party differences and labels expressing broadly Secondly, when a civilian employee I8 their sympathy and support for the demand disabled, let us say, he meets with some of the ex-servicemen4 agree with Shri V.P. accident or is injured or loses hand or leg or Singh that today in a short time we are going something, generally it is thb practice that b conclude the voting on the entire Budget, such civilian employee is given some alter- actually by 6.00 p.m. and the Defence Min- native job, which is described as some lighter later has got an opportunity here now on the form of work, which he can manage despite floor of the House to state quite dearly as to hisdisablement. That kind of attitudetowards what the Government proposes to do in this them helps many of them when they are matter. Personally Iam of the opinion that, disabled. But this is not a case with tho that pi,rase or formula whatever you would servicemen. When you lose hand or foot or like to call it, 'one rank one pension' is not something, when you are a soldier in the strictly an accurate formula in its implication Army, that is the end of it for you. There is no and definition. It is not accurate; it is a con- question of getting any alternative pb or venient way of expressing of what the ex- lighter job or anything. You go out. So, we amicemen have been wanting. But the main have to bear these things in mind. point is that, all these arguments that civilian 8ide being neglected or they will raise these This is a different lot of people. Iam not demands once the ex-servicemen get, we going into all the questions. For example, Should be quite clear that these are two other Members here have raised about different entities altogether. housing. I know civilian employe& also do not get adequate housing. But after all, these It is not only a question that the majority are people who are prepared to risk their d the Servicemen have a very short period lives in the service of the country. Iwm really d ~rvka,though that is a very major factor, quite emotionally moved when I raw el but also something else. Approximately theseex-senricemen who had gathered here 50,000 people are retiring annually from the the other day for a very d'ilhed and hncesenrkem below the age of 40, well peaceful kind of dharna Many of them, you +,' hwOen the age of 35 and 40 years. This Is see, were wearing @Lurtay awards. They bdng done, in the words of the Ministry, to came with their medals andgallatctnryawards Mtdnwhat bcalled, the youthful profileof as veterans of the Bangladeshwer, vatcuans OW bfwmforces. They should be young; of so many other wars. These ara the pqlo thy rhould W young. Thqshould not be who are prepared tq sadiioe everything 399 Demands fw Gmnts (Gen.), SEPTEMBER 5.1991 Chernkak & Fertilizers. Civil 400 1991-92Mn. of De(ence Min. of [Sh. lnderjii Gupta] by an assurance that whatever may be given in future will not in any case be less than what including their lives. We remember them was decided by the V.P.Singh Government. only at the time of war. This is the whole We cannot go back. we have to go forward. trouble. At the timeof war, the whole country It means that whatever pensionary benefits is in euphoria singing loudly and praising our the Government may decide in future -first of soldiers, our airmen and our sailors. But all, of course. the decision should not be when there is no war, in normal peace time, delayed for months and months but there it is very easy to forget the fate of these should be some time-bound arrangement people. That is why, this demand has as- made-whatever is given henceforth, should sumed particular significance, Ithink, in the be extra. That means additional, over and public mind also. above, what was decided in October, 1990. That should be clearly stated here. Without We do not know why the 1990 decision that, the ex-service men will not find any which was taken by Mr. V.P.Singh's Gov- credibility in the offer. They will feel that this ernment which we were supporting, though is just another Committee. We have already it was limited and was described as an ad had three or four Committees. If you just try hoc decision and it extended only from the to hand them out and another committee Sepoys up to the Subedar Majors was not without an~hiqelse. well, Ido not thinkthe implemented. The next instalment if it had ex-service men will react favourably to that. come-but did not come because the Gov- There will be afeeling of bitter disappointment emmentfell-wouldhave covered the officers and disillusionment. also. But we do not know why that whole scheme which was prepared, which was Therefore, since the country owes so finalised, which was worked out, whose fi- much to these old soldiers, I hope the new nancial implications were calculated, which Defence Minister will make things clear here went up to the Cabinet and approved by the on the floor of the House. Cabinet, was not being implemented. We do not know. Why had Mr. Chandrashekhar's Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh has also Government kept it in abeyance ? What spoken at length about the National Security were the reasons for keeping it in abeyance Council which was set up during his time. In have not been disclosed. Ido not think, this fact, much of his speech today was outlining is acorred method to go about these things. the tasks which the National Security Council Of course, everybody knows that there have should take upon itself. I do not know what been intensive discussions going on for the the National Security Council is doing. We last two or three days. should be told something about it. It was set up over a year ago and its task was to make I do not venture to say that there is certain assessments of a strategic nature. complete identity of the points of view of the We do not know what assessments they leaders of polit'd parties and the Govern- have made so far. In this changing world, not ment, but Iam hopeful that a kind of broad only changing world but largely changed agreement can be reached, as Mr. world, what are the new strategy assess- Vihwanath Pratap Singh said. provided the ments that this National Securiiy Council Defence Minister makes it amply dear on the has been discussing or has been formulat- floor of the Housethat whateverthey propose ing? to do now whether they want to set up another w om hit tee andgo into further details Ido not want to go into all those things and all those things but that must be preceded about the nature of the Pakistani threat. 401 Damands for Grants (Gen.),BHADR 14,1913 (SAKA)ChemimEs & Fertdizes, Civa 402 199 1-92 Mn. of Defencw Min. of Aviah 8 Tourism etc Even this morning, the Minister of External was after all a war for oil. It was not a war for Affairs was asked about the visit of the anything else. But what are the repercussions Foreign Secretary of Pakistan recently and going to be in this area, in I-ndian Ocean he has replied saying that he had conveyed area, in the Western part of our country? the message from the Prime minister of There must be some assessment by the Pakistan to our Prime Minister that the National Securiiy Council in this regard. Sir, Government of Pakistan was sincerely in- Iwould like to hear something about the new terested in resolving all bilateral problems change in the Soviet position, as has already through serious and constructive dialogue been mentioned. Ido not want to go into that for normalising relations between the two again. But certainly it has some impact on countries. Well, so far so good. But we are our national securiiy. Of course. Shri S. worried, all of us are worried. because the Krishna KUMAR intervened yesterday and experience on the ground, the reality on the had given some assurance to the House of ground does not always conform to these the outcome of his recent talks with the admirable sentiments which the Pakistan Scviet authoriiies regarding thecontinuation Foreign Secretary stated when he was here. of cooperation between the two countries in defence matters particularly. Ihope that his What exactly is our assessment ? The assurances are well-founded because National Security Council must think of this. changes are taking place all the time. We do They must have thought about it and spell not know about it. It is not a question of out. intention. It is a question of capacity. The Soviet Union also cannot for ever go on We are having some quite serious type behaving like a sort of a Santa Claus, handing of exchange of fire and hostilities' in the out things for the Christmas, free of charge. Poonch sector of Kashmir. Now may be to everybody right and left. They are in a things are quiet again because the Army tremendous economic crisis themselves, in Commanders on both sides have met and a crisis of resources. Therefore, the terms of tried to come to some kind of a truce or a these cooperation and supplies and all that. settlement. But what was it ? It is not a the terms if they are amended or changed to symptom of peaceful intentions at all. They some extent. we should not be surprised or are giving help to the terrorist activities, should not take it amiss. It does not mean particularly, Iwould say, in Kashmir. that the supplies will not come anymore. But they may not come on the type of terms on After the Gulf War and socalled victory which we are getting them earlier. But we of the US armed forces over Iraq, there is a have toget those supplies, Ibelieve, because big seachange in the whole equation of 80-85 percent of our weaponry has been forces in this area, that is to say, in the Gulf supplied from that country. We cannot sud- area. denly turn-over; switch over to some other sources of supply. In any case such sources The United Statec. may be feeling now of supplies may not be available. that their technology, their superior technol- ogy and their tremendous concentration of Sir, in this Annual Report of the Ministry- fire power which they have demonstrated Iam not quoting it-they have, in aparficular during the Iraqi war is something against section, dealt with- what they said was-the which noother power, no othercountry will in main thrust of the Seventh Defence Plan any case be able to stand. They are left as which is now coming to an end. We have the sole Superpower &w, dominating this been having the five-yearly Defence Plan whole area, dominating the oil-rich area. It since 1963. This report refers to, what It (Sh. Inderjit Gupta] got Iimitatbns. We may like to be sel-reliant in these things. But we cannot just use It as oonslders to have been, the main thrust of a phrase. But much more attention has to be tho Seventh Plan. Now, the Eighth Plan is given. being chalked out. What is going to be the main thrust of this in the Eighth Plan? The Wespent something like Rs. 1500crores Ministry must have thought about it. The ashort while ago in entering into this contract N,tknal Security Council must have thought with the Bofors Company forthe purchaseof about it. What is to be the main thrust of this these Howitzers. That agreement, that con- Eighth Defence Plan in thenew environment? tract with Bofon included the number of badly, something should be told to us. guns which would be supplied to thiscountry Obviously, air-power, of course, has be- within acertain time schedule. After that we come inaeasingly decisive. ll is true that air- do not know anything about what is happen- power does not mean only having combat ing. The spares for thsse guns, the ammuni- &raft. It does not mean only having heli- tion for those guns were all, according to that wpters. It means all these things. It also contract, to be supplied to us within acertain means having missiles and all that. So, this time frame. And Iwish to know about it. It is airpower will be decisive in any future hos- no secret, Ithink, now for anybody whether tilities. Unfortunately, most of the equipment at least terms of that contract in these respeds which is needed today fordeveloping the air- is being properly adhered to or not by the power is having to be inducted and will supplier. The other part of the agreement cordinue to be inducted for some time, I was devebping of indigenous capacity to presume, from abroad. We have not yet manufacturethe Bofon guns on the basis of developed our indigenous capacity to the their Swedish technology. That is a part of extentof providingthiscountrywith adequate the contract. We paid money for that. It was air-powerindigenous~manufactured.There said, "they will help us to set up indigenous Is mmo progress, a little bi progress but that production base here." What has happened Is far from adequate. So, what is going to about that ? happen ? We should know about it. Very expensive things are going on inducted from May we know something? Vast sumsof had. money are involved in it. Though the Defem Minister may not be the only authority to Sir, we are suffering from a tremendous speak on this question about further inves- resources aunch. There Is nodouM about it. tigation into that Bofors kickbacks case, yet Whatever may be the reasons for it. Iam not the way has been cleared. Ido not know why going into that. The fad of the matter is that my friend on that side gets so agitated about there is a tremendous crunch in resources, it. We want the truth to come out. It does nat partiwlar in foreign exchange resources t his matter, what it is. It is better the truth comes camtry is havingto face now. Othemise, we out so that all kinds of rumours and gossips vuould not have to go to IMF, this and that. and all that can be dispelled. Somebody ha Butto buy thbtypeof equipment from abroad taken that money. It is not our saying. It hthe haomethbrg which is realty aquitelorrnidable National Audit Commissionof Sweden which prorpect* revealed, for the first time, that this company hod paid an amount of about Flr. 65 crorm to romebody. But they said that they could nol reveal the identity d persons who took the money, That b their law, their ruler, Ido not know that. After that prolonged Oxmiw hu been gone into and you know very well that to it that it ends favorably for us. has beentaken to court where the FIR bdgetj by the CBI was challenged by a Iwant to make only one or two points. ~~~tl~manwhofillda Public Interest Litiga- One point is that in view of this crunch in tion- one Shri H.S. Choudhuri- whom the resources of foreign exchange, we cannot Supreme Court has now declared to be a go on buying more and more expenshre person who has no locus standi at all and equipment from abroad. Whatever is abso- who cannot enter into this litigation. But that lutely essential, if we cannot do without It. litigation wasdragged on for months together then we will have to buy, we will have to get demanding that the FIR lodged by the CBI some money. Otherwise. Ithink. an extended should be withdrawn. Well, that thing has programme of better maintenance of equip- fallen through. There was a deadline. Had ment, which we have already have which is that judgement of the Supreme Court not not bad equipment. and some upgrading come earlier that the deadline, then all that work can be done. For example, the tank submissions we had made to the Swiss engines can be upgraded. It was done by Bank including Letter Rogatory and all that. many countries. Retro-fitting of tanks and the whole thing would have fallen through. the guns of these tanks can be upgraded. Luckily, Iam happy the Supreme Court de- But, it will require allocationof more funds for livered its judgement just in time and has our base workshops. The base workshop declared that the FIR is thoroughly valid and of the army do not an excellent job. Ido not this Gentleman who filed the case has no that it is properly recognised everywhere by kcus standi. Therefore. there is no bar now. everybody. The base workshops do a first The Swiss Bank was ready to give us certain classpb. But, they require much more funds information, certain documents and material now and a little bit of modernisation. And the regarding thoso people who have got their ordnance factories, those of them, which acwunts inthose Banks and who arealleged help in this work of developing self-reliance -alleged Isay - to have been the recipientsof should also be helped with more funds and this kickback money. Now I want to know any other things that they need. from the Government whether they are se- riouely going to pursue this investigation or We are in favour of the policy of the not There is no bar now. As he said, in the Government which of course, had been meantime, this Company, the parent com- brought about under great compulsion of, of pany of Bofors has gone bankrupt. (Inter- compressing our imports as far as possible. N~tbns)What has happened to you? Iwill Because, we are not in a positionto enjoy the talk to You afterwards. The parent company luxury of unrestricted imports. The imports of Bofors has gone bankrupt, has been de- are being compressed but they should not cked bankrupt in Sweden and has been be compressed to a point where our public taken over by the Government. sector undertakings in the defence sector are not able to get their essential components Ihope that this is not going to present and parts, with which they have to carry on them any technical difficulty in the way of our their production. infact, the FinanceMinister recovering ultimately that kick-back money had told us one day that if we do not compress "kh was Included in the price of the guns the imports, there are big public sector un- "d which we are entitled to rocover. We are dertakings-defenceundertakings-which may "01golng to pay that kick-back money which have to bedosed down, becausethey cannot HI be pocketed by somebody else. So, the get their essential imported components. hemment of India has to fight this matter So, that must be looked into. Secondly, I pmrocutr tbinveaigatbn and see want to ask a questbn, which Iask evwy 407 Demands for Grants (Geri.1, SEPTEMBER 5.1991 Chemicals & Fertilbe~s,Civil 409 199 1-92 M.of ~efek in. of [Sh. lnderjit Gupta] specific tasks, some jobs to do within, as far as possible, some kind of a time-frame. year, but never get a reply. What is the fate on the main battle tank ?Year after year, we You are going in for privatisation for have been told that 'Arjun' is still undergoing some time now of defence supplies, asso- trials. There were trials after trials, but no ciating the civil sector with our defence sector engine could be developed. The trouble is for the supply of many articles and items. I that an adequate tank engine has not been have only this to say that the privatisation of developed in this country, up till now. We this type should be restricted to non-lethal have tried to do it in public sector, private itemsonly. There will be atemptation. Iknow sector and everywhere. But, we could not there will be a trend towards allowing this get an engine which has the requisite horse- private sector to produce what are called power to propel a new modern battle tank critical components. It is mentioned in your like this-MBT, which we had conceived of. I book approvingly mentioned that critical do not know, how much money had been componentsof sophisticated equipment are spent on it. Ithink that you should be frank also increasingly being given to the private andtell the country that the concept of this sector to manufacture. I think the Minister Arjun Tank is not going to come off. It is knows very well that in the recent Industrial better to drop it. There is no use keeping it Policy Resolution of this Government, the going on from year to year like this without items which are specified, will continue to be any prospect of its fructifying into a kind of in the public sector. Defence is one of them tank that we need. You have got our old defence equipment and defence items. Well, trustee-Vijayanta; you have got 355; you For the last few years, you have given some have got 372 and you have got these BMP 1 hundreds of crores worth of orders to the and 2 Of course all are imported. But, we private sector. But please be vigilant that it can imprwe their capabilities by working on does not come into the lethal items. What is them. Many countries, even Israel, which the meaning of critical components of so- Shri Jaswant Singh was talking about, had phisticated equipment, including combat done a great deal of upgrading and retro vehicles. It is mentioned here. So, defence fitting of all their old tank and are using them supplies generally should continue to be quite effectively. reserved for the publicsector because that is what your new Industrial Policy Resolution Similarly, there is the question of light also days. combat aircraft. Iwill be very happy to know, at what stage projectis. This is also some- Then, there is a reference here-which I thing, which we hear year after year. Is it still welcome that the cost effectiveness of de- vWor is it being abandoned or what ?This fence expenditureshould be given top priority. light combat aircraft, according to your book, Obviously when we are in this financialmess- its report, the prototype, as a test, may be cost effective expenditure is always neces- flown, four years from now. sary now it is much more necessary. But you go through the Defence audit reports and the Four years hence in 1994 or 1995, he reports of the CAG. Many have been pub- was saying, tm, test flights of the prototypes lshed recently. They ardpublished periodi- may be held. How much are we spending on cally. They are never discussed in Parliament this, Ido not know. But we are not making or anywhere else. They paint a very gloomy progress at all So, more funds must be picture. Thousands of crores d rupees are spent on our indigenous defence research being wasted due to cost over-runs and due anddwelopment.They mud be given some to defective equipment being brought and bunel to be useless and all sorts of things. to some recentcontrwersialdedrionswhich They are all listed in the CAG's report. But have taken place in the question d promo- Mymust be accountable for that. We tions at the highest level. But Ibelieve that I k do not hear of any people who are, after these norms an conventions were properly inquiry found to be responsible for all these adhered to, these suspicions would not have gross wastages, being brought to book and arisen. And it is very bad for the health of the being hauled up. Then, this will go on year Defence Services. Therefore, it h the obli- afler year like this. gation of the Defence Minister to see that only the senior most and the best d the One or two points only more and IwiU officers are appointed as the Chiefs of Staff finish. This accountability, of course, has and nobody else manages to get in by some been referred to here. But the accountability other means. a major casualty not only in the defence sector, accountability has generally been a Finally, Iagree with the Defence Minb casualty in this country. But in Defence, we ter himself who has not spoken anything cannot permit it to go on like thb. Therefore, here just now but had been speaking outdd. Iwould beseech of you that when you talk of in various places. Ireedoneof hbstatemendr cost-effectiveness, go into aU these audil with which Iagree 100 percent, if he ha8 nol reports and CAG's reports and see what has quoted wrongly, that is, there atmu# not k been happening. Sometimes it is a criminal imeasing use of the Any, as there is, for wastage taking place. It is just blandly written purposes which are really supposed to be there that so many thousand aores of some purposes of the civilian police or other particular item were ordered. Thq came. paramilitary forces. He had referred to the They came late, first of all. After they came, fact that some State Governments have gd they were found to be defective. They could into the habit of just telephoning and saying not be used and they are lying there for that there is an uncontroUable law and order months and years together. Somebody must situation or some riot situation and to pbu be accountable for all this. The immediate send the Armed Forces immed'ily. hdin thing is accountabili. Otherwise no country such a situation, Sir, you have to send tho can function. So, please look into all this. Armed Forces immediately. And in such r situation, Sir, you have to send the Amy Another point I want to make is about sometimes. You cannot avoid sending R promotions at the highest level. I am not when some Chief Minister is saying wery- talking about any other level. I am talking thing is burning and all that. But the point b, about the highest level. Sir, the use of the Army more and more for controlling this kind of a law and order dhr- You cannot go higher than the Chiefs of ation and for breaking sttikes sometime, I Staff level, that is, Chief of Army Staff Chid must refer to it because Iam a trede unbn- of Air SQji and Chief of Naval Staff. Pm- ist--or for even cardoning certain ueaa in motbm tothew poet8 In our aountry have to towns and cities and carrying out howto follow urd had always fdbwed some strict house search within the cnrdoned mr b wen eatablimhed conventiow and norm8 not, strictly spddng, the job of tho Army. which am generally acmpted inthe Senricss Army's job is to guard our borders qaht urd by wer-.I only want to say that throat of external aggressionPnd they shM thorn should not be any ruspidon at any time not be used more and moro for pupoaa that thii poky of promcllbnb beii distoded which are poliipurposes and & b not dwto merubjective md pononal eon- good for the Army dm. The Army b na ridrntbnrIdd&ratdy¬wanttodu trainodforthb job. It btnhrdfar.)urrLlrk 41 1 &mads far Grants (Gen.), SEPTEMBER 5,1991 Chemicals & Fert&ers. W 412 1991-92 MI. of DelmAh. of [Sh. lnderjit Gupta] people who are carrying out guerrilla type of operations like laying mines and carryingout &fferent type of job. If they are used of ambushes. Our Army is not trained for this policing purposes and if they are moving kind of operations at all. Therefore, lthink Sir about him convys and if somebody throws that it is best to the extent possible to avoid something from the side of the road on that using the Army in a hurry for some adhoc convoy, then we know how the Army will type of operations or mainly for purposes react. They will stop the convoy and get which are not Army purposes, which should down and bum the whole village. lt is hap be dealt with other people. It is your job that pening in Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab you have to improve the efficiency of your and other places. That is the training of the Armed Police and para-military forces and Army. Ido not blame them. That is the way all that. They should be able to deal with such they have been trained. Either you kill and situation. The Army should not be called you will be killed. But in many of these places upon to get involved and mixed up in these where you are dealing with, a large civilian things because in the long run. it will do no population may be misguided for the time good either to our country or to the morale of being, may be they have been agitated be- the army or to the civilian people who have to caused something. But, basically, the civilian face these encounters. I hope I have not population cannot be dealt with by the Army misread the statement of the Defence Min- in this way and it will lead to all sorts of ister which he made outside recently and I complications which we are having to face also hope that he will also confirm what I now. Talk about human rights suppression. have said. stories of torture, etc. This is avery unpleasant yw thing which we do not like to hear. And SHRl D. VENKATESHWARA RAO therefore, if you go on using the Army. it is (~ap2ftaJTiiJr:CXaTKaXsir, fhankkyouvery bad for the Army's morale alsb. lt is bad for much for giving me an opportunity to speak. the morale of the Jawans. It lowers the Many of my senior colleagues both their vast prestige of the Army. Some cases of indis- experience, have dealt with various aspects ciplined behaviour towards the civilian of our Defence. varying from service condi- population becomes inevitable because of tions, research and development. external the kind af amflid and dash which is taking relations, nuclear weapon strategy and also place. And whenever they do take place, ourrelations with the USSR, China, Pakistan. they should be immediately inquired into and also on the complaints being received. This I do not have a personal knowledge is very essential. about Defence, but what Iwould like to bring to the notice of the Government is based on We do not want this to be some news items and also some informations internationalised. We do not want the Inter- that Icould get from some publications. hnalAmnesty and some other Human FligMsCommissions to came here and shout Iam given to understand that between about the excesses being committed by our 1985 and 1989. our purchases for Defence Armed Forces. Same thing happened when were to the tune of about 17 billion dollars or the IPKF was in Sri LankYou put them into so. Most of these purchases were for Soviet an emrironment wMch they are not accus- Migs, German submarines and the Swedish bmed to at all. They have to fight in the midst Boforsguns, etc, So, aktof foreign exchange da hostile population and fight inthe middle was spent to purchase all these weapons. djungles and interrains with which they are We are very much aware of the recent fi nd aoquainted at all. They have to face nanaal crisis due to shortfall in fore8n ex- change. The Government must necessarily updating the T-72 tank was a non-started. curtail this expenditure to overcome the cri- Pes. For this, it has to adopt some measures. Project Panther, meant to update T-541 Wih regard to Defence requirements, the 55 has achieved very little. process of indigenisation should be devel- oped and unnecessary wastage should be Fourteen yearsof work has not produced avoided. By adopting this type of methods, a single type of prototype of -Arjun Tank. As we can reduce the expenditure on Defence. per the Army perspective Plan by 2000, about 10 regiments were to be equipped with While discussing modernisation and Arjun Tanks. indigenisation of our weaponry, we have come across certain faults. For example, the So, when all these projects have not Director General of Ordnance Factories been implemented the war wastage rate wanted to set up the required infrastructure should have been reduced. for indigenous manufacture of Bofors type of gun. In 1989, the cost was estimated at Rs. The Comptroller and Auditor General 1,100 crore, of which Rs. 850 crore was pointed out that in 1982 some guns were allocated for the new gun production line, purchased and Rs. 33.62 crores worth of Rs. 250 crore for the factory to manufacture ammunition were also ordered. But in 1985 eight types of ammunition and two charge the guns order was cancelled but the order bags for the Bofors gun. for ammunition was kept valid. So, when the guns were not purchased, the ammunition The Cost Effective Study conducted by that we were getting became useless. In this the Master General of Ordnance (M.G.O.) way there was Rs. 33.62 crores of loss to the shows thatthe Bharat Earth Movers Limited, exchequer. one of the eight public sector undertakings, is willing to set up a gun production line at the 15.49 hrs cost of Rs. 120 crores. Similarly,-a Pune based Private firm can produce cartridges at ER.SPEAKER in the chaia the cost of Rs. 20 crores, which would be filled with the explosives by the Ordnance Another area mentioned by the Audit in factory later on. So, a clear cut thousand this regard is chetak Helicopter. A sanction crores of saving is there. These types of of Rs. 6.92croresto modify Chetak Helicopter savings should be kept in mind when we are for an Anti-tank role proved suboptimal. As dealing with the arms purchase. the amount was too meagre they could not fulfil the required projections. The war wastage rate should be re- duced. We have still several purchases to In the Navy, they refused to visit the make, which areall pending forone or another place of submarines when they were not reason. For example, the Bison project. It upto the mark. Moreover sufficient funds was sanctioned in 1961 and was meant to were not given with the result that they update the Vijayanta Tanks. This was became helpless. so, in this manner, various bandonod in 1987. A suitable engine to projects which were started did not give the replace the existing Leyland L-60 was not desired results; this was due to lackof proper found and this affected 1.700 Vijayanta planning. We have got some other examples Tanks. where light combat aircraft project and other projects- it was mentioned by my senior Project Rhine, sanctioned in 1987 for colleagues also- were initiated in 1960. A! 415 ~~~tGeul).SEPTEMBERS. 1991 Che&&&Fa CJvl 416

give their sanction to these demands for grants. But before doing that, every hon. these projects are still pending without any Member should know how the expenditure kind of progress. has been incurred in the previous year; whether it has been incurred properly or not The other area where we can curtail Our aim is to give some suggestions and to oxpendiiure is the transport system. We see how the utilisation of the money granted have got one, two and three linesof transport had been made in the previous year and how syrftem. One or lwo lines of transport system it win be made during the next year. b supposed to be very essential during war time as well as when there is no war. But the Sir, Isupport the hononrable Shri V.P. ather system remains idle when there is no Singh and Shri lnderjit Gupta who have war. During that period, vehicles can be submitted proposals for providing amenities, hied from the civilian side whenever they comfortstoour Jawansandthe Armed Forces are needed. who have been fighting for the country, giv- ing their life for the defence of the country. Siachen, as we all know, is 21,000 feet Country's securiiy is the securii of the in- above the sea level. In this area, the opkra- dividual. That is why I first want to pay my tkns are very diffiiult to perform. There is an tribute to the Jawans. urgent need to resolve this conflict so that a bt of expendhure can be saved. We are In Orissa there is a tribute which, when spending Rs. 32-40 lakhs per day over there translated into English reads thus: i in saving human lives. If this conflict is re- solved earlier, then crores and crores of loving country who forgets relations rupees can be saved. Like that, everywhere and affection we have to see how we can save money. At the call of the soil who comes forward Leaving all his dormant and drowsy My senior colleagues and other hon. state Members have ewtheir views re- To remove the sorrows of the country- garding one rank one pension. Ialso agree mother with *em. We should not compare these Who aomm forward to open her breast people who are retiring at the age of 30 to 40 before the fire withthe peoplesewingin other departments. I pasthem my tribute.' These people have to face very difficult situations during their tenure. So, Irequest Sir, First of all Imay be permittedto stm the hon. Finance Minister to come out with a from my State, Orissa Orissa contributes a policy statement whereby he can give com- ktto Defence through many major Defence prehensive benefl forthem so that they will establishments that are there in Orissa bevery grateful to him as also to the previous Government. There is a military air base at Charbala in Cuttack district.There is a MIG factory at With these words, I thank you for giving Sunattola in Koraput district, there is Navgl me an apportunily to speak on this subject. Training Centre at Chilka in Puri distrid; there is the proof and Experiment Centre at '-' JR. KARTIKESWAR ---PATRA Chandiiur in Balasore district, there is an @ahore): Iam supporting the ~eman6 Ordnance Factory at Sonitale in Bolanglr kr &ants under the cmtro! of the Ministry of dbtrid,there b aTraining Centre at Gopalpw Doience. Irequest all the hon. Members to h the Oanjlvn district and there b a Radar Station at Nilgiri in Balasore district. various parts of the country and they con- cluded that Baliis the suitable place for The people of Orissa are always ready the establishment of national test range. At lo make all sacrifiis for the Defence estab- that time, I had told them not to interfere in 'khments. I want to mention here why the the matter. At that time, Icategorically said National Test RAnge at Baliapar could not that this place is not suitable and it should not possibly be established so far. I want to be implemented if the support of the people categorically put forth before this august is not there. Also ltold that peopleof Baliapal Housethatthis proposalforthe establishment will oppose tooth and nail, and Ihad requested of a national test range at Baliapar was them to chose another suitable best site. But initiated in 1977 and the then Government my appeal was turned down them. put lot of emphasis on establishing that Na- tional Test Range at Baliapar. But for the last Sir, many attempts were made by many 14yearsit could not possibly be established. Prime Ministers in the past. But no official why could enter into that pocket because Baliapal is the greenery of Balasore. There is a vast MR. SPEAKER: You have to be very terrain of cultivable land. As per the proposal brief. There are other Members who want to of the Government, 70,000 people will be speak displaced and 99 villages will be evacuated in Baliapal...( lntenuptbns) DR. KARTlKESWAR PATRA: Before I talk abouf the Bofors case and about the MR. SPEAKER: Please come to the comments of the comptroller and Auditor point. *General of India Iwant to make the position about the establishment of the National Test SHRl KARTIKESWAR PATRA: This is Range at Balaipar clear. That is why Iwould avery vital point. This should be considered. like to request you to give me some time. MR. SPEAKER: All these information MR. SPEAKER: You are quite capable are available. You need not give them. Please of saying many things in few minutes. come to the point. There are many Members. who want to speak DR. KARTIKESWAR PATRA: In 1980 there was adiscussion in New Delhi regarding SHRl KARTIKESWAR PATRA: Sir. theestablishmentof this NationalTest Range some Members have taken more time, more at Baliapar. than 40 minutes. Ihad categorically prayed in your Chamber to give me more time to At that time, the Defence Minister was express my grievances. present. All party vmbers from Orissa in- cluding the ChiefMinister and other Ministers MR. SPEAKER: You will have time to Participated in that discussion. At that time, sper&. But you need not give the statistics. Shri Arunachalam was the Advisor. And the present Secretary of Defence Department SHRl SRIKANTA JENA(Cuttack) : Sir. yas present. He explained everything. L the entire people of Orissa are opposing the 9astokl that an expert committee consisting national test range to be set up at Baliapal. of three personsone person from the De- fence Ministry, one person from R&D and . MR. SPEAKER: I am not disalbwing another person. Director -General (Quality him. But Iam saying that he need not give Assurance)- investigated and enquired these details. DR. KARTIKESWAR PATRA: My argu- Sabha ke bhitar pandit chhipe na; ment is this. We have not opposed the es- Suraj chhipe na bad4 chhai." tablishment of other establishment of de- fence in Orissa. And why the people of Truth can be revealed in aday. Idemand Orioppose to this establishment tooth before this House there should be a com- and nail ? mittee to inquire into the case and its report should be placed before the House for the Sir, as per the estimate of the Govem- hon. Members to know and for the country to ment, 70,000 people will be evacuated. But know because it is a matter in which there b my estimate. it will be 1.5 lakhs of people. are political overtones and some persons There are certain people who have landed took the opportunity to acquire power. Iam property there but they do not have a resi- not naming the persons. But they very well dential house there. There are also affected know their position. in this and they will also be displaced. That is onething. Anotherthing is that 41 villages of Iwant to submit before you that the hon. Bhograi also will be evacuated. And the vast Comptroller and Auditor General of India terrain of land will also be acquired by the has given some comments for the year 31st Government. March, 1990. No. 8 of 1991, Those com- ments have not been properly replied or If the picture of Baliapal would not have properly redressed. There was loss of crores been in the map. what would be the fate of of rupees in Defence Department due to this establishment of national test range? It negligence of officers and some other per- would have been established elsewhere in a sons and because of that we are facing second suitable place. So, Ifervently request trouble now. It was also pointed out for the . here, before the House, before the CA&Gthat 67percent of what was budgeted hononrable ~efenceMinister and the Prime for a specific matter, had been totally mis- Minister, to shifl the site of this national test used. range from Baliapalto a second suitable site.

Will this Government kill my people ? MR. SPEAKER: You have to conclude Will this Government come forward to es- now. You cannot go on like this. The time is tablish the National Test Range by killing my very limited. You should know how to say a people ? The reply must be that it would not point. be the case. That is why. Irequest the hon. Minister to consider the matter. discuss the DR. KARTIKESWAR PATRA: I want matter and then take suitable steps in this five minutes more. regard. About training simulators it has been Regarding their case for Bofors, in this said in the audit report: House, there was a debate and some big persons, who had taken the opportunity of this Boforscase, had been placed at such a -An audit review of the installation and place in the country that everybody went on utilisation of some of the training simulators sang this idea of Bofor. But this time what in the Air Force revealed, inter aha, that two. happened? simulators costing Rs. 11.49 crores had re- mained non-functional from July 1985 and Sindhu bhitar pap chhipe na; March, 1987 respectively due to unstable Nichh chhipe na badpan gai. power supply." There is another very vital point and I Commission 8 Report was implemented an quote that: Army Havaldar who retired prior to 1973 used to get a pension of Rs. 375 permonth avernment had approved in Seg but today a person of same rank is getting his ' tember, 1983, the acquisition of three types pension at the rate of Rs. 761 per month. A of vessels abng with ammunition and other Subedar Major who retired prior to 1973 special equipment at an estimated cost of used to get Rs. 551 pension per month Rs. 967 crores. An audit review of the ac- where as the person of same rank who quisition, operation and maintenanceof these retired after 1073 gets Rs. 1588 per month. vessels indicated, inter alia that a large Similarly a Lieutenant who retired prior to number of design inadequacies in one type 1973 is getting Rs. 850 pension per month of vessels acquired at a cost of Rs. 618.30 whereasthe person of same rank who retired crores, placed critical constraints on its op- after 1973 is getting Rs. 2550 as pension per erational depbyability,' m0nth.A Brigadier and U. General who re- tired before 1973 are getting Rs. 1648 and It was told that it would be ready not Rs. 2534 pension per month respectively before 1993. This is the situation. whereas persons of similar rank who retired after 1973 are getting Rs. 3150 and Rs. 3800 Similarly. there areso many cases which as pension per month respectively. This is a have been pointedout by the Audit about the big anomaly. The sewice conditions and negligence of the Defence officials. nature of dutiesof persons working in Armed Forces and Civilian Departments are alto- But. Iwill not go into all that. Only some getherdifferent. When an Army Jawan retires points here Iwant to raise. he is around 35 to 40 years of age. At that age his children are not settled and he has to MR. SPEAKER: No new points. Now, face many hardships. these two points are more than enough. On the other hand our counterparts in DR. KARTIKESWAR PATRA: Sir, with the Civilian Departments retire at the age of these words, Icondude. 58 years. They get all promotions during their career while being posted at one place and doing desk job. They are also able to construct a house of their by the time they

--.--.2---SHRI D D KHANORsKangra): -.-- Mr. retire and their children are settled and thus Speaker, Sir, it isunfortunate that there is no they do not have any problem as such. On mention of making a provision for 20 lakh ex- the other hand the Jawans and Officers of servicemen in the Defence Budget. All of us the Armed Forces who work day and night are aware that everybody has to retire one get a meagre pension. When they go back day after service andone has to find for one's home after retirement they have to face lot of family. There is wide disparity in the rates of hardships. The Jawans who retired prior to pension of the armed for- personnel who 1973 fought many wars for the country. retired many years backandthose who have They fought wars in 1947-48, 1962,1965 retired recently. Iam myself an Ex-service- and 1971. These men have been awarded r men who served Army for thirty-two years. I gallantry medals but their pension is far less feelthat there is widedisparity in the pension than those who retired much after 1973. of soldiers and officers who retired prior to These men got Victoria Cross during the 1973 and those who retired after it. There is British time and then Vir Chakra, Mahavir a strange alpomoly. When the third Pay Chakra and Paramvir Chakra But in the Minister. Sir, you must have obsewed that all these Members who spoke on this subject mrttsr of pension, they lag for behind. They referred to the wide disparity in the rates of h.ve made ktd sacrifii throughout their pension of all ranks in the Armed Forces. All Me to get these medals. they have not pur- the leaders admitted that those who fight for chged it from any market. They get these the security of the country and are ever dabbecause they are always ready to prepared to sacrifice their life are in a mis- micetheir lives for the country. But when erable plight. They retire at the age of 35-36 they retire, they get a meagre pension. They years. Mr. Pawar, you would be surprised to do not have enough food in their homes know that after retirement they have to run because their land has already been bst as from pillar to pod for five to six years to seek hmost cases the land has gone to the actual re-empbyment through the Directorate of tiler. I, therefore, urge upon theGovernment Rehabilitation such has been setup in each Md the hon. Defence Minister to seriously state by the Defence Ministry. However no think about 20 lakh personnel of the Armed scheme is implemented by them. Arrange- Forces who are agitated over this matter. ments must be made to ensure that not only Thg have been returned to many State reasonable pension but also free education Assemblii. Besides, in 1984 there were a is providedto the children of those who were few retiredArmy officers who were electedto always ready to sacrifice their lives for the thb House. Today, the number of Ex-ser- nation while serving in the Armed Forces. vicemen in this House is also about eight. The children of the army officers while they are in service are given an opportunity of We want full support from the House education in the best school but after the ud want that these disparities in wages retirement of army personnel, the Govern- - rhould be removed. Shri. V.P.Sigh had ment does not take care of the education of rrndbnod an interim rekf for this purpose. their children. The Government does not An adhoc rellef ranging from Rs. 71- to Rs. give any priority to the educationalfacility for 459 had been released. This should have the children of Ex-servicemen, been given equally rigM from the rank of Sepoytothe ledofSubedar Major but it has Since there is no audit of the Defence nd been done so far. Therefore. Mr. Speaker, expenditure, it implies that proper utilisation Sir, I would like to submit emphatically. of such funds should be ensured. At the time through you that the disparity persisting in of Chinese aggression we were not strong (he ratesof pensionof retiredArmy personnel enough from defence point of view. Pt. dmuki be removed so that they could rea- Jawahar Lal Nehru had given his approval provide for their families and the on the proposal of border road from agitation among them is also eased. Darbhanga to Fohisganjbut to this date, no provision has been made for this purpose in This is all what I want to submit in the Defence Budget. even though this road of the retired army personnel. is of strategic importance and during the days of Chinese invasion lndiin army had to puU out for want of such a road in those areas. However, Iwould like to give a warning Rime Minister Lel Bahadur Shastri had given that if China or Bangladesh dares attadc us, 8 man 'Jai Jawan Jai Kisan ,Sir, it is clear we would have to face the same conse- Irom the Deferm Budget that in our country quences that we faced many years ago. The the ddiirs have remained as neglected as defence transport system win collapse as k farmera. SM Pawar is an experid did druing the timeof Pt. Jawahar Lel Nehru. 1991-92kh. of~ef&h& of Therefore, Iwould like to say that in view of politics, and it is yet to be seen whether he is the strategic importance of road, rail or any well- versed defence matters also. other mode of transport in these areas, spe- dd attention must be paid to this project Sir, Pakistan is indulging in false pro- urpently. paganda against lndia in their own country and abroad. It is also providing financial Mr. Speaker, Sir, just now a mention support to terrorists in Kashmir. It is getting was made that Pakistan is ready to wage a modem weapons from America. China and war against lndia We may defer it by a few Iran. It is being said that there has been an days or months but it is an admitted fact that improvement in Sino-Indian relations but they are giving training to terrorists in the this is not true. Pakistan is waging a proxy border areas. We must come forward to war in the guise of terrorists in Chhamb and dostmy these training camps. Poonch areas. For the last so many days Pakistan has been resorting to shelling in Sir, you must have come across the Poonch area of Jammu and Kashmir which news report wherein General Afzal Beg said left22dead. Recently there has been shelling that lndia has become very powerful and it in Chhamb area also. might attack Pakistan any day. This is an indication and a warning by Pakistan any I would like ?Q inform the House that day. This is an indication and a warning by even though the present Prime Minister of Pekiitan that they are ready for a war and Pakistan Nawaz Sharief and the former Prime we should also be ready for it. Minster Benazir Bhutto have divergent views, but in their recent interviews to a foreign You cannot negate the fact Pakistan news media, they said that within one year has a nuclear bomb. In such a situation lndia there could be a war between Pakistan and camr afford to complacent. This is high lndia over the Kashmir issue. This means time when ourcountry should also spend the that Pakistan is ready for war. We have tried required money on our defence prepared- to find a solution to this problem at the ness and devebp a similar bomb. The any Foreign Secretarys level, but in vain. The should be given latest weapons and the late Lal Bahadur Shastri while speaking at army officers should be provided with the Ram Lila Maidan had said that we would maximum facilities. not respondto Pakistan's abuse with counter- abuse but with bullets. This is what we expect With these words, I end my speech. from the present Government. Thank you. \ ~5 Sir, Pakistan is spreading false propa- SHRl MOHAN RAWLE : (Bombay ganda about lndia in foreign countries. Pa- SouthCentrru) : Mr. Speaker, &, at the kianis not interested in improving its rela- outset Ipay my tributes to our former Presi- tions with India. It buys tea from Argentina. dent Dr. Radhakrishnan. The Defence port- China and Kenya at dearer rates but it is not folio was held by the late Prime Minister Shri prepared to buy the same thing from us at Rajiv Gandhi, the former Prime Ministers bwer rates. Sir. we purchased 1200Vijayanta Shri V.P.Singh and Chandra Shekhar Ji and Tanks from Britain. but the production of this , now il is with Shri Sharad Pawar who is from tank was stopped 20 years ago by that Maharastra. I know the hon. Minister per- country. We brought 60 warships 15 years aody.When we went to Bombay we had ago but these have now become ouMateB. anopportunity toobserve hicourage during The produdion of MG-21 aimaft bought r naval execciso. If he is well-versed in from the U.S.S.R. has since been slopped 427 Demands for Grants (Gen.), SEPTEMBfR 5.1991 Che- & Fertdizers Chd 428 1991-92 Mn. of Defem Min. of Aviation & Tourism etc. (Sh. Mohan Rawle] Ratnagiri which are coastal areas. Our De- fence Minister belongs to Maharashtra. He by that country. Warplanes with latest tech- knows that Navy was introduced in lndia by nology should be purchased. Today, along ChhatrapatiShivaji. Laterthe Briiisherscame with Pakistan, China is also our enemy. At and rules over us. So our armoury should present, the strength of the Chinese army is never remain empty. Every year 50,000 30.30,OOOthatof the lndian army is 12.62.000 soldiers retire from the lndian army. Iwould and that of the Pakistani army is 5,15,000. like the respective States to take the re- Today, China has surface-to-surface missiles sponsibility of their resettlement. with a range of 13,000 miles and air to surface missiles with range of 3,000 miles. Lastly, Iwould like to know what is being done by the Government regarding the De- Sir, the Defence budget provides Rs. fence Expenditure Committeewhich was set 892 crores for the Navy, Rs. 8079 crores for up under the 'chairmanship of Shri Arun the Army and Rs. 2054croresforthe Airforce, Singh. The Government should review that but it should be increased. We saw modern matter. There is a lot of propaganda about techniques being used in the Gulf War. We facilities for ex-servicemen but there is a must pay greater attention to our Navy and feeling of acutediscontentment among them. Airforce. Sir, there should be no shortage of TheGovernment should accept their demand fuel for our aircrafts. H fuel is in short supply, of one rank-one pension. We feel proud to our training standards could fall and this see the contingent of ex-servicemen during would lead to problems during war. The the Republic Day parade but when they average consumption comes to 150 litre per agitate and stage Dharnas, we feel ashamed. day per aircraft and we must ensure its So IrequesttheGovernmenttopay attention supply for this purpose. Iknow time is short. towards their plight. With these wolds on behalf ofthe Shiv Sena. lopposetheDefence The I.P.K.F. operation in Sri Lanka re- Budget (Interruptions)... Sir, while opposing sulted in heavy expenditure. But the greatest the budget I express the hope that the hon. fault on the part of the Government was that Defence Minister will consider my sugges- that dependents of the jawans killed there tions and take appropriate action. Ithank you were not rehabilitated. It should be expedited. for iving me the opportunity to speak. The army should not be usedfor maintaining 4- law and order in the country. Army personnel 1SHRI TEJSINGHRAO BHONSLE deployed on the Mazagaon docks have not (~arn%%J?-~$%er, Sir, Irise to-- support been given revised scales for the past 15 the Demands for Grants of the Ministry of years. Their grievance is that they are not Defence. Atthe timeof India's independence, getting house rent allowance and chi1dre.n Kashmir chose to merge with the lndian education allowance. 45 per cent of the Union which led to a war between lndia and personnel are working there on contract Pakistan, after which one part of Jammus basis. If they go on strike, the country could Kashmir acceded to the lndian Union and become very vulnerable during wartime. War the other part wasx forcibly occupied by can start any time. (Intenuptbns)... The in- Pakistan as Azad Kashmir. Since then, cidents of shelling are not being made public Kashmir is a burning issue. by the Government. Presently, there are only 18 Sainik Schools and their number In 1962, there was a war between lndia should also be increased. There is no naval and China In 1965, lndiaandPakistan fought pre-training school in Maharashtra. Such a war and again in 1971, there was an war schools should be opened in Raigarh and regutting in the emergence of an independent Bangladesh. Later on, IPKF was sent to Sri killing innocent persons and Police Person- Lankaandwhenitwaswithdrawn from there, nel. Keeping in view the present position of the influence of LTTE increased in the north- the country and the recent Middle East War, ern part of island nationthereby jeopardising there is an urgent need to argument the the security of India. defence production and the penetrating power of Indian armed forces. Because of According to a statement of MS Benazir the fundamental economicchanges in USSR, Bhulto, the Ex-Premierof Pakistan, Pakistan it may not be possible to meet the defence possesses the know how for manufacturing requirements of India. So, lndia should be- atom-bomb. Has the Government of lndia come self-sufficient in the matter of defence taken note of the statement? During the production. tenure of late Smt. lndira Gandhi, an atomic explosion was successfully carried out at Foreign exchange can be earned from Pokharan, but tilldate, atomic power is being the sale of armaments produced domestically made use of only for medical purposes and in India. At present, the Department of De- for the well being of the mankind. Ever since fence Production is producing 50 percent of the war with Pakistan in 1971, incidents of defence requirements of our country. If we intermittent firing are taking place in the could produce cent percent of defence re- Poonch sector. In an interview with quirements, there would be no need for Newsweek, the Pakistan Prime Minister import of armaments. lndia could export light stated to have remarked that lndo Pak war weapons like pistols, machineguns, was imminent. while at the sometime, dis- stenguns, handgrenades, light guns, motor cussions were on with the visiting Minister of vehicles, trainer aeroplanes and weeded out Defence of Pakistan on the ways and means arms for sale and earn much needed foreign of checking infiltrationfrom across the Paki- exchange. staniborders. We fail to understandthe logic for all these exercises. What the Govern- Sir, unity among all concerned can be ment of lndia was doing to get the terrorist brought about through adoption of one rank training camps closed in Azad Kashmir ? Will one pension scheme. Probably, it will put a the Government of lndia would think of dis- heavy burden on Public exchequer. There- mantling terrorist training camps in Pakistan, fore. Irequest the Government to implement if Pakistan refuses to stop terrorist activities it in a phased manner. Priority must be given in India? to aged pensioners. Then, after that, other pensioners can be given bonds to ensure TheGovernmentof lndia must be aware less burden on Government. There is no of the ongoing terrorist and disruptive ac- proper arrangement for treatment of ex- tivities in lndiaof ULFAof Assam and Cachin servicemen and retiredofficers sufferingfrom Army d Myanmar working in tandem with seriius ailments. It is absolutely necessary each other. Likewise LlTE of Sri Lanka has to provide for treatment of diseases like been cmating an atmosphere of terror at cancer, Kidney transplantation and heart several places ih India. Their threat to hijack surgery. National Front Government mooted Poona-Delhi flight and to blow up Mettur the proposal for bne rank, one pension' Dam are the latest instances of their inten- scheme on 13 October, 1990. This would tion to create terrorism in the country. In benefit about one and a half lakh pensioners, Punjab even now at least 30 persons are but would cause discontentment among the killed everybody. public at large. Only 8 percent people would be benefitted by the scheme and the re- Sir, the terrorists are roaming freely maining 92 percent not get any benefit. [Sh. Tejsinghrao Bhonsle] scendent of Chatrapathi Shivaji, has sup ported the Defence Budget. Now the Shiv Pmbabty, as a result of it, there woukl be Sena should reconsider its decision and widespread discontentment among retired support the Defence Budget. officers, JCO's , honorary Commission holders and exsenricemen in alternative MR. SPEAKER: While voting the Bud- jobs and widows of defence personnel, who get, they will do that. generally remain out of the purview of the Scheme. (Intemptbns)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bhonsle, please [ Translation] send your suggestions to the hon. Minister of Defence. DR. S.P. YADAV (Sambhal) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, Irise to oppose the demand for SHRl TWSINGHRAO BHONSLE: Mr. grants of Ministry of Defence. After a bng Speaker, Sir, Iam concluding. In the end, I struggle, country became independent in muld like to suggest that housing facilities 1947. may be provided for every defence person- neland more Kendriya Vidyalayas be opened MR. SPEAKER: Time isshort, soplease for education of their children. Special leave highlight the points and so not elaborate oouldbegranted todefencepersonnel posted them. Iam making the suggestion so that a at remote border areas. This provision was number of points are put before the House. hvogueduringthe Britishrule. Arrangements for railway reservation on preferential basis DR. S.P. YADAV : Iwithdraw. may be made and specialtrains from Jammu to Bombay, Madras, Calcutta and Guwahati MR. SPEAKER: You are allowed to be started again. In roadways buses also, speak for 5-7 minutes as there are others reservation facili could be extended to also. defence personnel.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, inthe end, IwoukJ like logive one more suggestion. On the pattern I am not objecting to your making the of nomination of retired Colonel to speech. Iam saying that the time is limited. Maharashtra Legislative Council, retired Don? you speak? defence personnel could be nominated to Rajya Sabha as a representative of ex-ser- [Translation] vicemen to honourthesepersons as a matter of gesture. DR. S.P. YADAV : Everyone has spo- ken on the issue. So Iwithdraw. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with these words. I condude and hope thevernment would definitely consider my suggestions and implement them. Ifully support the budget. MR. SPEAKER: All right. > (Interruptions)... \"9 SHRl DIGVIJAYASINGH(Rajgarh): Si, SHRl V.N. SHARMA (Hamirpur) : Mr. S)wi Tejsinghrao Bhonsle. the direct ds ~~edke%~u.Iwould like to submit that aU members should get equal protection from tion of one and all but Iam expressing my you Since yesterday Ihave been observing apprehension about the people who are that you are permittingsome of the Members responsible for giving leadership i.e. theh bspeakfora bngerdurationoftime whereas civilian bosses who spoiled the whole ma- when our chance comes, you ring the bell chinery for their selfish political motives as just after two minutes. they are least concerned about the welfare of the country. That began with the jeep scandal, inferior jeeps were purchased for the use of soldiers and the man who bought such jeeps was Shri Krishna Menon who was the friend of Pandit ji. That is why matter Ivery humbly submit that the trend of was hushed up. Similarly, during the China the debate has been spoiled. war, Nehru ji said:

[Translation] [English] Yes, Ihaveordered my army. The army Through you and through this august commander has been ordered to throw them House. Iexpress my heart felt gratitude to out.' our defence forces who are equipped with best fighting machinery and are considered bo be the finest soldiers in the world. But I shall certainly oppose this Budget. They are The result was that the Himalayan blunder considered as the finest soldiers because took place and the country suffered a humili- during the second world war they fought ation. Despite this humiliation, Nehru ji was against fascism to save democracy. Not only not prepared to company with him. - this, they fought three battles against the so called Islamic republic of Pakistan since [English] 1948 to safeguard secularism. In 1948. Pa- kistan attacked on a small part of India and Hesaved Krishna Menon. The President they were paid in the same coin. Had Nehru had to threaten him with dismissal. ji not committed a mistake. the name of Azad Kashmir would have been wiped out from the WM map. (Intemptbns) We have given such leadership to the army. (Intemptions)...

I am quoting from history you cannot Treacherous act of China so much change history. That is what Iwill say. grieved Nehru Ji that it finally took his life. In 1971, when General Manekshaw was the Chief of the Army, he was asked to give his opinion about the preparedness of the Army In 1965, Pakistan made yet another to faae the possible war , he emphatically bigger attempt to wage a war against us and said; this time our soldiers reached Lahore. In 1971 another attempt was made, as'a result thered that country was divMed and Iam rum that they will suffer a ma@ set bad il Y bel'ive my army is not prepad yet.' they make any other attempt to wage war in He took probably three or four months time. Mum. The Soldiers have won the appreda- Everybody knows the result 435 Demands for Grants (Gen.), SEPTEMBER 5,1991 ChemM& FeMkets, CivJ 436 199 1-92 Ah. of Defence hin. of Aviat%n & Toun'sm etc [Sh. V.N. Sharma] one family. A new person hastaken over charge of the office of Prime Minister and a [ Tmnslation] brave Maratha is our Defence Minister. His dynamism reminds us of Angre, Shivaji and There had been another Chief of the Rani Laxmi bai. Tnat is why Iam talking all Army Staff under a different Prime Minister. these things. I would also like to bring yet He was asked tomarch to Sri Lanka. He another information to his notice so that he ordered his troops instantly without thinking may learn a lesson thereform. One Chief of the pros and cons of it. Consequently, it took the Air Staff demitted office in the morning heavy toll of lives of our soldiers and the and by the evening his Chair was occupied officers. by a new occupant who was given an ex- tension for a periodof three months because [English] another one is in the waiting. Such sort of manipulation is there and there and this has This is a gradual deterioration in the happened in the Navy. This fact has already army through the civic leadership. been reported by the Statesman fifteen days ago. Such sort of machination and manipu- [Translation] lation has taken place. The high ranking officers and not the petty officers have filed Mr. Speaker, Sir, the present situation cases against it. The result was that the two is very criiical. Now you see. officers did not get their due and they have been made Flag officers.

[English] MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude quickly. MIXSPEAKER: Such things happen. Appointments, transfers and promotions are never discussed on the floor of the House. Let us add to the strength. Let us not reduce the strength. We never discuss about the [English] appointments. transfers and promotions on the floor of the House. SHRl V.N. SHARMA: I wish that the army is protected from such unscrupulous [ Translation] ~eo~le- SHRl V.N. SHARMA: It is submitted that unless we discuss the shortcomings how can they be rectified. (lntenupthns) MR. SPEAKER: You leave the historii cal aspects behind. You come to the point. [English] MR. SPEAKER: There are certain things which we do not discuss on the floor of the House. There are rules followed by us; there are conventions followed by us. (lntenrrp- tions) SHRl V.N. SHARMA: This is a sug- gestion. They should protect the army from [Translation] such people . I am giving this suggestion because we havewt rid of the monopoly ol Iwould like to submit that special atten- 437 Demands for Grants (Gen.),BHADRA 14.1 913 (SAKA)Chemimls & Fertiue~,Civil 438 199 1-92 hh. ofDefem Min. of Avktion & Tourism etc tion be paid to the D.R.D.O. so as to effect [Translation] improvement in it. Corruption is rampant there in for quite sometime. The cost of SHRl V.N. SHARMA: O.K. Sir. A very L.C.A. i.e. the light combat Aircraft Project relevent thing has been mentioned. has escalated. In support of my contention, Iwould like to quote from Half-an-Hour Dis- [English] cussion of 20th May 1985. Sir, this relates to the meeting when the present Prime Minis- It is being practised in the Army. ter was the Minister of Defence. [ Translation] [English] You might be knowing this. There is nothing knew in it, but they may be reminded. Shri Raja Mahendra was [English] member of this committee as MD, DMD, You cannot marry a foreigner. HAL and he had been closely associated with the ICA programme. ever since the conceptualisation of ICA. The officer in the IFS cadre too have to [Translation] seek permission for this but the same is not required for the civilian officers. This This concept was mooted during the gentleman was possessing Briiish citizenship period of Mahendra Ji. for himself and his wife was also a British passport holder. It has been wriien that the Regarding it the hon. Member of this foreign citizenship is a very very dangerous House Shri Kalmadi stated that our require- thing, Isuppose. Atleast our defence services ments would be fulfilled at the cost of Rs. 30 should be kept free from such things. thousand crores and by the time this will be Mr.Speaker Sir, the civilian authorities were acquired at the turn of the century the rules not allowed to interfere in the matter relating of warfare would be changed. to Armed forces. Such blunder like the LCA project on which an additional expenditureof [English] Rs. 2000 crores incurred would not have been committed. It has been mentioned in The things will become redundant. the CAG report that during 1982-83. the cost for 6 prototypes happened to Rs. 560 crores [Translation] but in 1990 the cost of only 2 prototypes was Rs. 1560 crores. That is why Iam saying that And you have dept such a person. whenever any civilian gets access to these works, such thing is liable to be happened. I [English] would like to give yet another instance of such lapse. Recently, one Shri Bhargava I am quoting from there. I have got a Saheb of the Maruti Industry was sent there letter which the Chairman of HAL has written for setting up of the one branch of Maruti to Shri A.K. Pandey. Joint Secretary (De- Udyog but he, through his negotiation, made fence) (Intermptions) someother industry settled there. Such thing has happened recently, so all of us might be , remembering this. MR. SPEAKER: No, we do not read a letter in the House. There are rules to be [English] followed. We do not read the letters.Well, if you have some information from the letters, I am very much worried about the civil you can make use of it. leadership. MR. SPEAKER: You have made a very [ Translation] comprehensive speech. Now please con- dude. MR. SPEAKER: Now please condude.

SHRl V.N. SHARMA: There is one more danger. Now Ishall not talk about any person as some of us have taken objection to it. You should not have used it. But now aon- clude. MR. SPEAKER : Sharma Ji. please conclude after this point. SHRl V.N. SHARMA: Iam sorry. Sir. Mr. Speaker: That will not go on record.

SHRl V.N. SHARMA: I am talking of [Translation] DRDO i.e. Defence Research Development Organisation. The wife of the gentleman SHRl V.N. SHAHMA: Mr. Speaker, Sir, whom Iquoted is a foreigner. (Interruptions) Iwould like to submit that the Alloy Factory at my problem is...... the cost of Rs.100 crore, I stated this be- cause...... [English]

MR. SPEAKER: Now, please conclude. I do not believe it has given the desired results. So. this bottomless spirit of DRDO must be seen. This sacred cow of defence expenditure has also become a secretcow. SHRl V.N. SHARMA: No, Sir, there is a So, this does not mean that we do not keep problem. Now-a- days track of everything they do.

There is another danger in DRDO...... ' Mr.Speaker, Sir, aliiniumsponge plant of Rs. 100 crores is going to be erected there MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on despite we have already one such of Rs.10 record. crores. (Interrwtions) Sir, they supply us (Intemptbns) also the same items which they supply to the others all over the world. Much have been SHRl MURLl DEORA (Bombay South): said here against the interests of our army. R must be expunged. The quali of the armaments used during the 1965 war has been questioned here. So any SHRl CHANDRAJEET YADAV (Atam misuse of kind must be checked and the Gah): Eiher the Member should withdraw amount so saved must be spent on the his remarks or it should be welfare of the army. expu~ed.(rnt~~iw,s)

SHRl V-NSHARMA: I am sorry. (In- temphs). Iam withdrawing my remarks. It seems that Ihave become a little too controversial for the last about ten days. So," (htemptions) Idid nd know the rules. (In- Iam concluding. temptiom) Ihave withdrawn my remarks. What isthe problem now? (Inte-s) ldid h"$lRI I,NDER&. (Darjeeling): not name. (IntBCILQtions) Mr.Speaker. Su. Ihad no intention of partid- Avr'aton& ~wr&ek pating in thisdebate. Iam, therefore, grateful 17.00 hrs. to you for allowing me at short request to make a few points and seek a few clarifiia- These agents have approached the b tions. Government of lndia and various wings of our Defence forces. Iit is not so, then Ithink My first point relates to the Henderson that it is time that we should approach the Brookes' report. As we all know, our country powers that be in Moscow and get these faced a major debacle in 1962 and we suf- supplies directly from them if necessary on fered a humiliating defeat. Lt. -Gen. dollar payments rather than through these Henderson Brookes was asked to go into high commission agents this matter. Ifeel, it is time that this report is made public so that we could learn from the SHRl SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: You experience of that great and humiliating take directly from America. debacle. Most of the principal actors of the drama are no more with us. Therefore, there SHRl INDERJIT: No. I said we should should be no difficulty. Moreover it is almost take directly from Moscow. 30 years since that report was submitted. Mr. Somnath Chatterjee is still to fall in This is a point which Iwould like the Defence line with the developments in Moscow. Minister seriously to consider. The next point which I would like to make relates to a clarification which Iwant The second point which Iwould like to on the question of MBT, the Main Battle make relates to the Arun Singh Committee's Tank. My good friend and name sake Mr. report on Defence Expenditure and Planning. lndrajit Gupta had already spoken on the ,Mr. ArunSingh himseff made certain remarks. subject. Ithink it is a matter of great distress He gave an interview to the Press which he that even after 15 or 20 years, we have not said was on a personal basis. Ido think that yet been able to produce an engine which the Arun Singh report should also, be made would have the required horse power. Now, public, more particularly because it deals Shri Krishna Kumar, the Minister of State for with the questions of drastic changes in Defence said here yesterday that this tank management, production and privatisation was on various trials in Rajasthan. I would issues. Ibelieve. he has also made a proposal like to know whether this tank has an indig- in regard to the creation of Rashtriya Rifles. enous engine or it is an imported engine. I This needs to be considered seriously since think the country has to be told about it very servicemen have to leave their job at the clearly because he gave an impression early age of 30 or 35 years. They could yesterday as though the Main Battle Tank perhaps be absorbed in the Rashtriya Rifles. has finally been produced by our great R&D He has said and we are all agreed that it is Section which I do not think doing well most unfortunate that the Army should be enough. called out time and again for civil use which is neither good for the Army nor is it good for One or two small additional points, and for the country. Ishallconclude. The next point which Iwould like to deal with is the question of Pakistan. The third point which I would like to Everybody has repeatedly deeply spoken make relates to thequestion of supplies from about Pakistan. Ithink our security require- the Soviet Union. We have been facing certain ments require us to come to some under- during the last two years for get- standingonthe basisof theSimlaAgreement. ding very vital spares and supplies from the And Ido think that at the moment, both lndia Soviet Union. Ilearn on good authority that and Pakistan are insanely indulging in the Soviet Union has, during the last one bleeding each other white through their arms year or more, appointed some American acquisitionrace. Something ought to be done agents for offering these spares and sup to stop this. We have to move in that direc- plies. Virtually across the counter. tion. SHRl SHARAD DIGHE: No Govern- ment servant need be present to attend to My last point is about accountability. Lok Sabha proceedings. (Inte~kns) The quaion of accwntabllity has not re- cshred the attention of thii House w even of MR. SPEAKER: In all fairness, il should the prevkus Ldc Sabha of which Ihad the be said that the chiefs were not knowing as prMkge d being a Member. Accountability to when the Demands for the grants of the CM be brought about only if we go in for the Ministry d Defence will be taken up. Committee system. Ido belive that we should have a Standing Committee on Defence if wr have a Standing Committee on Defence, then we will be able to save the country from MR. SPEAKER: Nothing more in view many of the shameful and scandabus hap- of what Ihave said. penings in the Defence field. SHRl INDER JTT: Iwould condude by F'nalty, Mr. Speaker Sir, in the very saying that healthy conventions established Mtedtime available to me. Iwould like to in the past in this regardmust be adhered to make one other point with great diffidence. I and Parliament's dignity is not compromised am gled to see that the top brass d the Amy, (htemgtions) Navy and Air Force are here to listen to the debate. At the same time, I would like to SHRl RAM NAIK (Bombay North): Sir I make a point, thatthe Army Chief is, " am on a point of order.

He is perhaps abroad now for good MR. SPEAKER: What is it? masam Brd Mr. Speaker Sir, it is most Important that he should have been present SHRl RAM NAIK: My point of order is hers pday.(lntem@bns) any reference to Defence Personnel and with particular reference may naturally go to SHRl SHARAD DIGHE(Bombay North the whole of India through the Press end It Cerrbal): Sir, he cannot rder to persons in would look so awkward and to pass on lho Odkry. (Intemgtions) remarks on just those who cannot defend themselves is not proper. So, lwould suggogt SHRl SOMANTH CHAllERIEE: Sir, lhat this reference should not be on record. Gdedtm cannd be referred to in the House. Only then, this reference will not reach the (hCemgUons) whole of India Otherwise, it is not good. And finally,'people will know that these remarlo MR. SPEAKER: Iwill remove it from the were made. (Intempfbns) ~.Thatwou#ndformpartoftherucord. SHRl INDER JIT: I only urga that we should uphold well established conventions and nothing else. The dignity of the House must not be armpromised.(/ntemgtbns) s)(RI INDERJTT: Sir, Iwithdraw my ref- ~lotheOalkry.ButImwrldsayandI MR. SPEAKER: Ido Mewhat pu bdow that ab the mome nt,..."... ldo think havesaid.AsIhavesaid,itwas~dsdded wo should eWbli8h the convention by when the Defence Ministry's Demands tor wNe)l .I the Chief* namely, the Army, Air Gradswasgoingto~~meupfordi WmdNavd ChM,ougMto be present h view of thet, il aome offiker is not preserrtt; for tho dabate. I think It k most unfair and Ria mtpmperkrany hon. Memberlomake m#p tha he b nd pmmt here now. a rderencs with respect his presence a ~sdignityisinvoked(lrnt~115) ebarenae. At the samehe, Ithiiilwuldbe

"Expwgd as ordered by the Chair. bdtw 1 go through the records. I will go They have expressed their desire to kmm lluwgh the records and see what can be the policy of lndia regarding this. As far as dona lam not saying that it will not form part the policy of lndia regarding this is con- +of the record. Iam also not saying that it will cerned, we have put forward our views many krm part of the record. times before the world. Our country is also going to succeed in achieving the atomic SHRI INDER JTT: My only point is that power, but we want to use this power for healthy conventionsshould be folbwed...... peace and devebpment only. This is a good thing that some of the countrims are talking to MR. SPEAKER: No more of it. Mr. lnder ban the atomic weapons. But none of them Jit please. Please sit down. WeU, Ithink for has come forth to destroy the stock of thet dmul eigM hours, the Members have made atomic weapons they have piled. Here the very good points on the Defence Ministry. names of China and France have been Many Memberscouldhavespoken and could mentioned in this context. India is happy that have made many more good points. But both of these countries have signed on the unfortunately, timeconstraint is there. Ithink nonproliferation treaty. But we are much the hon. Minister for Defence should at least concerned of this that they talk of banning haveone hour to reply to the good pointsthat the atomic weapon on one hand but on the have been made and at 6 o'cbck we have to other they transfer the technology to other apply guilbtine. That is why, Mr. Ahmed and countries. There should be a complete ban other hon. Members, Iam very sorry that I on the making of atomic weapons all over the am not ina positionto accede toyour forceful world. There should be ban also on the plea and Iwould request you to take your transfer of this techndogy to othercountries. seats. Irequest the hon. Defence Minister to Attempt shoukl be made todestroy thestock- aommence his reply. pile of atomic weapons possessed by those countries, and unless some final settlement is reached in this regards, India's signing nonprofileration treaty will not be in the THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI interests of the country. SHARAO PAWAR): Mr. Speaker. Sir, Iam bnTf6gmdemands of grants for the There has been a good starl with regard Ministry of Defence approved by this House. to reducing tension in the world. There were The hon. members from the both sides of the two power-bkdc and now, its seem that only House have made very good and valuable one power bbck is going to exist . Some points regarding the country's security ar- good steps taken by the Soviet Union and rangements. And Iam of the firm view that America together are liable to help in es- these pointswillcertainly be helpful in making tablishingworld pleace. But at the same time our National Security policy. we should take the internal situations in Asiin countries into consideration as well. A different atmosphere is now visible in And thereafter we see that there is only one the world. After the gul-war, an atmosphere power-block that dominates the world. hfavowofpeace is intensely gaining ground Through the influence of the only power- h the world. The super powers are coming block left in the world, some diicub situations doser to each other in order to reduce ten- my arise there. lam glad to note the changes rbn. the powerful countries of the world are in Americas, stand on certain issues. Take In Wng in terms of reducing their stocks of lndia for instance. In regard to Kashmir rQmic, chemicals and other lethalweapons problem America had taken some dierent Iruh#l they are possessing in a large quan- approach earlier. Now that an initiative on ti&. Indii is very happy with the emergep bilateral discursions is in process. Nw d this new environment in the d. America does not seem to support the Pakistan's endeavour of inter-nationalising Sir. many hon. members have made the Kashmir issue. And this Is a healthy sign their submiiregarding atomic power. on part d America that it is considerii tho 447 Darn& f# Grants (Gen), SEPTEMBER 5.1991 ChemWs & Fetiilizers. CivJ 448 Aviath & Tourism etc [Sh. Sharad Pawar] and now they are rebuilding their country. Soviet Union has always been with lndia with reduction in economic and military assis- regard to matters concerning its defence . tance to Pakistan which wants to go ahead in Several of the hon. Members haveexpressed acquiring the atomic capability. The world their concern over the impact on the defence has become more conscious regarding the preparedness of lndia following these concept of peace. It isa moreopportunetime changes in the Soviet Union. It was sug- b pay attention towards establishing re- gested to look for an alternative source. But gional peace. Soviet Union and particularly Russia has contributed a lot in improving our defence The world peace cannot prevail in case equipments such as Tanks, aeroplanes and of a conflict between super powers and other sophisticated technologies. Ithink we regional strle. In the Gulf war, the entire must continue our existing agreements with world has witnessed how a regional strife Soviet Union which will terminate in 1995. caused world wide tension resulting in this Sir, it is again a matter of pleasure to note war fought by world's Modern technology. that my State Minister had recently visited This has amply proved that the war can Soviet Union where he was given an as- break out when efforts are not made to surancethatfriendshipwithlndiawillcontinue defuse tension. That is why, the efforts being as before irrespective of its internal affairs. I made for ushering world peace must be myself want to visit Russia and try to explore carried out at regional level also. It will cer- all the areas for ensuring helpfor Russia with tainly benefit thecountrieslike India, Pakistan, regard to matters concerning our defence, China etc. as their approach and attitude are still the same towards lndia despite changes in their Sir. the Prime Minister of Pakistan had internal affairs. We can certainly resolve all given certain proposals regarding the use of our problemsthrough mutual discussion and nuclear power. Although no specific proposal evolve a novel way in the present circum- was put before lndia but in his recent stances. speaches he certainly referred to this issue. He has taken certain initiatives to ensure Sir. in the changing scenario, lndia has peace in the South-Asia. lndia is never op- alsotried to improve its relations with several posed to this concept. But this is contradi- countries. The steps have also beentaken to tory becauseontheone hand, he is taking up improve our relations with U.S.A. I have certain proposals to ensure peace in the already referred to shift in its stand on South Asia and on the other hand, he is Kashmir. It has shifted its stand from the trying his best to increase nuclear arsenals. concept of Plebiscite to that of bilateraltalks The efforts made to get nudear arsenals and has conveyed the same to Pakistan as from China by Pakistan contradicts the very well Consequently, we have tried to improve proposal of peace and security being pro- our relations with U.S.A. We are trying to pounded by it. That is why lndia has not improve our relations in defence sector also. made public its stand in this regard so far. Sir , the chief of the Indian army has Ihave pleasureto state that efforts have gone to U. S. A. today with the intention of been made to improve our relations with our adopting their latest technology for our armed neighbours. we have friendship with Soviet forces. lndia has always pursued the policy Union for several years. Today, the circum- of maintaining friendly relations with our stances have changed there. The cries for neighbours. We have good relations with democracy are being heard and the economic Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives and Bangladesh. changes are being brought about these. The we are still trying to improve them. consequences that follow from such mea- sures at the initial stages are very much Pakistan'sapproach in this context is to visible there. But we are happy to note that expand its nuclear capability and it has also they have su~ssfullytackled the problems taken some steps in this regard. It is being 449 Demands far Grrtnts (Gen.).BHADRA 14.1913 (SAKA)Chemicals & Fettkers, CivJ 450 1991-92 h&. of Delence Min. of AviatrEx, & Tourism etc done with the help of China, which is regret- any compromise. If it requires greater atten- table. It was alleged here that we prepare our tion, it would definitely be given, but it is not budget keeping in view Pakistan's Defence proper for lndia to expand its Defence Bud- +Budget. It is not true. We are anxious to have get because it will give wrong signals within friendly relations with Pakistan. When the and outside. If we analyse the provisions representative of Mr. Nawaz Sharif came made for the Defence Budgets during the here. he was welcomed by the Prime Minis- last 4-5 years, it would be clear to the House ter. lndia accepted the proposal of peace that there has been progressive reduction in offered by Pakistan. lndia had all along re- the expenditure on Defence each year iterated that the people of lndia have no ill against the total expenditure of the Central feeling against our Pakistani breathern; that Government. I would like to put the figures lndia did not want to intervene in the internal of the previous years before the House. affairs of Pakistan, that relations between the two countries should be improved. Both [English] the countries are fighting against poverty and in order to achieve any success in this In 1987-88, the defence expenditure regard, it is imperative that we should not compared to total Central Government ex- make excessive provisions in our Defence- penditure was 18.39 per cent; in 1988-89 it Budget. Boththecountries are facing serious was 17.81 per cent; in 1989-90 it was15.52 economic crisis and to overcome it, they per cent; in 1990-91 it was 14.76 per cent must make drastic cut in their defence bud- and in 1991-92 it was 14.42 per cent. gets. lndia is following this policy. It was alleged that the provision made in Budget for [Translation ] Defence is not adequate. Sino-Indian rela- ,tions too were discussed here and today Thus. we have come down from 18% to there is no tension on our horders with China. 14%duringthe last 5-6 years which is notthe In the recent years, China has not taken any case with Pakistan. If you look atthe Defence such step which can create anxiety or doubt expenditure of Pakistan against its total in our minds. Therefore, we will try to develop Central Govt's expenditure, you will find that good relations with China also to ensure it was 38.8% in 1987-88,34.1% in 1988-89, mutual development. 34.6% in 1989-90 and 34.9 %in 1990-91. This has been published in "Economic Sur- As far as China is concerned, there is vey Pakistan and India". Latest figures of certainly peace on the border and efforts are Pakistan have not been made available so being made to improve our relations with far. but these figures showthat lndia istrying China. Mr. V.P.Singh had also referred to it hard to reduce its Defence Budget. It was in his speech. But our neighboring countries alleged here that International Monetary Fund are being supplied armaments by China. must have asked to initiate some steps in China have decided to supply an atomic this regard but this has not been done forthe Submarine to Pakistan on the plea that lndia first time. We have been taking similar steps had taken the initiative in this regard. But I for the last five years. Our young member, would like to make it clear that lndia had hon. Sh. Mohan Rawle has stated that we obtained asubmarinefrom Russiafor training should attack Pakistan but lndia does not purposes only and it was not equipped with want war with any one. We are for having any arms and ammunition and that too was friendship with Pakistan. We want to have handed back to U.S.S.R afterthe completion good relations with China also. We are for of training. Ihad never been the intention of havinggood relations with all our neighbours. Bur country to create panic among all the That is why we are reducing our defence , countries of the world by having it. It is forthis' expenditure every year. reason that Iwant to make it obvious that we are not at all in favour of making more It was stated that an additional sum of allocations for Defence. So far as national Rs. 350 crore has been provided this year as security is concerred, we will never make compared to the provision made during the that this information is coned. bd year. But Iagree with Shrl V.P. Singh There is hardly any day without an hrd- &at this amount may appear to be more, but dent of exchange of fire on IndoPakistan keeping in view the devaluation of Rupee border and parlicularly on the Kashmir bor- more payment inforeignexchange and other der. Fire is opened first by the Pakistani expenditure, in a way it is actually a reduc- troops which is only retaliated by the lndian tion in the budget. troops. Pakistan is making a false show of efforts to improve its relations with India. On &far as Pakistan is wncerned, it isour one hand it is indulging in the activities of desire to improve our relations with them. firing on lndian troops, false propaganda During my talks with the envoy of Sh.Nawaz against lndiaand makingthe issueof Kashmir Shaif and in his subsequent detailed talks an international issue along with its bogus with the Prime Minister, it wasconveyed that complaints against lndia with Human Rights Nawaz Shad Saheb wants peace in the Organisation of the other. region. Sir , we had some discussion for a few They want to have friendly relations with days alsocn this topic. The hon. member Mr. lndia. They are prepared to settle down the Chandra Jeet Yadav had referred to it and issues through bilateral talks. Our Prime apprised this House of all that he had come Minister has welcomed all such proposals to know through BBC transmission in Poond and we still stidc to that policy. But the sector. As a matter of fact, there is a village attitude of offering peace proposals on the named Kirani in PwnchSector which is near one hand, and to make an all out anti-India the line of wntrol that divides this village propaganda abroad on the other may ob- itself in two parts. Some of the houses of this , drud the efforts to bring about an atmo- village happen to fall on the lndian side and sphere of peace. someothersare inthe PakOccupiedKashmir On 2nd and 3rd September, our army You must have noticed that one month officers posted at our army check posts in back, former Pak Army Chid had made a that areacame to know that Pakistani soldiers statement that there was a possibility d war along with some terrorists are trying to with Indim Hawever Iam happy to note that infilterate into the lndian side of the border. h the new army Chief of Pakiihas stated led to the clash of troop. Pakistani troops that present situations are not fovourable for had initiated firing with full preparedness. a war with India. The Prime Minister of Pa- Heavy firing continued for two days. So lndia khtan has also observed that they could had to deploy her army with a view to take have good relations with lndia and there is steps to drive out the Pakistani terrorists no situation of war because neither we nor from the lndii territory and that fighting they in- tend to think that way. But in an continued for two days. In fact, Pakiii intwiew to the newsweek magazine, he troops drove inten kibmeten into the lndian expressed that there could be a war on the territory to open fire on lndian troops. It Kashmir issue. These are contradictory caused a great damage. statements. No doubt. we are fully prepared lo rattle issues through bilateral talks, but AN HON. MEMBER: What was your such talks can be successful only when army ddng there? there is improvement in the ground level situations. Without it. no progress can be SHRl SHARAD PAWAR: You are ask- made in this regard. Ihave been told that ing this question as to what the lndiin army Pddstan is still indulging in such activities as 'wasdoingthere. Infact they tookthe required mny training. supply of arms, ammunition steps and drove away all the Pakistani sol- and money, to the terrorist elements diers and terrorists, from the lndian territory. J#lgwOth hburion and infil~ationKashmii Haweveron account of bombardment, Indim rdpwdaRRi@nely~veryrad troopssuffered a bss of eight d their penom Lo. one officer and 7 persons of other ranks should always keep it intheir mind that areas and more than forty persons were left injured of responsibilities of the army, the navy and in the adion. Our soldiers noticed that while the air force have been constantly expand- returning Pakistani soldiers were also carry- ing. hg with them the dead bodies of about twenty Pakiini soldiers. lnspite of all this, We are to take care of the security of 15 lndian counteraction proved productive be- thousand kilometer of our land border and cause later on the army commanders of the more than 7,500 kilometer of sea border. two countries met to resolve the issue and Besides, this department is also entrusted decide that there will be no recurrence of with the security of our islands because such adion in that region. As per the latest special security measures are required to be information received only this noon, there is taken in respect of our oil deposits inthe sea complete peace in that area and Pakistani bed. Our army is always ready to extend its and lndian troops have gone back to their help to maintain the territorial integrity in the earlier positions in their respective areas. event of any natural calamity in the country. But it has made one thing very dear that on That is why all these are the responsibility of theone hand Pakistantalksof bringingabout our armed forces. The actual cost of the work improvement in its relation with India while can not be instantly assessed as it increases on the other hand, it follows the policy of when it is actually undertaken by them. In helping the terrorists. It is ample proof of fact we are not going to increase our defence malafie intentions of Pakistan. Therefore, I allocations. However routine expenditure b would like to say categorically to my coun- a must and it should not be taken that way trymen that we want to have friendly relations that the funds allocated are not being utUM with them, and we will try our best to maintain properly. Yet, wecontinue to followthepolky harmonious relations with that country but if of restricting our defence expenditure. Even Pakistani army takes any such step as it had today our current defence budget alloca- taken on last 2nd or 3rd September in tions comprise of 72% of revenue expendi- Poonch Sector, the Indian soldiers are ture and 28% of capital expenditure. Even in competent enough to counter that 1972.80% of it was meant for salaries and cldkn...... (lnternrptions) However we are allowances, 33% for essential military worried to see the vicious attitude of one of equipments, 4% for revenue works and 5% our neighbouring countries at such a point of for families and other items. V!: have not time when a peaceful climate has been allocated much amount for defence per- created all over the world with the unification sonnel. But inview of the latest developments of two Germanies and an air of change in the witnessed in the field (~fdefence technobgy relations between the Soviet Union and during the recent Gulf War, it would not be herim which is bringing them,doser. On proper to ignore our defence requirements. the contrary, our neighbouring country is Therefore, when we are yet to for formulate prepared to move into a wrong direction. a new defence policy, we are not in favour of Thii b not good at all. In view of these expansion of our army. Instead, our efforts developments, our Foreign Secretary will will be to equip our army with all sort d tdslt that country perhaps on the 19th of the sophisticated and latest type of arms and next month and we shall definitely raise this ammunition. More attentbn should be paid huewith them to ensure that whatever has to this aspect d the problem. So we wil happened the past is not repeated in future. ensure enough of that supply. It is true that HOWWOT on our part we shd do all that we depend on other countries fylmImport whatever is possible in this regard. of such weaponry. But in the face of foreign exchange constraints, such an import k It has been mentioned here that we are beooming increasingly difficult. In view d i~hgincreasingly more and more ex- this situation, we @hallhave to lay greater pndbreon our Defence preparedness. On stress on indigenous remarch and devsC that- Ihave already stated here that that opment Hence our poky is to pay greater i8 fMthe position. But the hon. Members attention to this point 456 Devnands for Grants (Gbn), SEPTEMBER 5,1991 ChemM& FertiKzm, Civil 456 Avianbn & Tourism etc [Sh. Sharad Pawar] veloped several ammunition including most lethal and anti-tank ammunition. Really, they Shri V.P.Singh says that our allocations have done a very commendable work in the for defence research and development have field of land and sea mines and armaments. been declining. But that is not the fact. Ihave seen that on this account there was a provi- ( Interruptbns) sion of 2 percent amount during 1989-90 which rose to a level of 4.3% in 1990-91. [English] That level has been maintained even during 1991-92. It shows that there is no decline on I am coming to that. As regards elec- this count because we want to pay greater tronic equipments that is all major systems attention in this regard. In respect of research. of Army communication network like elec- tronic switch, local area network, (Interruptions, [Translation] SHRl SOMNATH CHAT I ,WEE: What is the actual value of Indian rupee? Per- These have been modified by this de- centage is okay. But it does not make a big partment. They have designed and devel- difference. oped a number of electronic devices which have been very useful for the electronic (Interruptions) Murli Deora also does department. not agree. It has done wonders even in the engi- SHRl SHARAD PAWAR: Why do you neering section, which have benefited the drag Murli in it? We need to emphasize self- country. They are still making persistent reliance in view of the foreign exchange eff ortsfor indigenisation and development of constraints and internal situations prevailing ArjunaTank as main Battle Tank, which has in our friendly countries. On this point we been widely discussed here also. First, it has have paid greater attention. been stated here that a lot of expenditure has been made on that account but in fact A lot has been said here about the only an amount of Rs.174 crores has been DRDP, some of the Members said that it is incurred on this project. Rs. 375 crores have not working properly and getting delayed. been spent on LCA project. The Prototypeof They also said whether MBT is to be Arjuna the Arjuna tank frequently referred to here is or not. Also, they have expressed their ap- now ready. As per the statement made by prehensions about LCA Project. But Iwould the Minister of State in the Ministry of Defence like to say here that this department has yesterday, it is now under trial in the desert done a commendable work during the last of Rajasthan for the last six months. Some few years. Today, we have achieved self- drawbacks have been noticed on it and the reliance in several areas. The credit goes to efforts have been made to remove them. I DRDO. There are so many things. # has believe that this tank is comparable with the been asked here as to what is tho actual best of tanks available in other countries of progress made in this regard. The House the world. It is in no way less efficient. should be apprised of it. But we must know that there are a number of things which we YOU might haveseen the American tank cannot disclose in national interest. Our 'Abraham' used in the recent Gulf-War and Research Development has tried its level keeping inview thecapabilityand technology best to show an appreciable performance in of Abraham, British tank 'Leopard' and the the field of armament development. devel- German tanks, M.B.T. Arjun is in no way" opment. It has modlied and improved upon inferiir to these three ones. From some Mifield gun Mark-I, Mark4 and self- points of view, M.B.T. Arjun is even more propeled gun. k also indigenised muhibarrel improved and likely to be used in the nea Rodcet system. This department.also de- future. The allegation that its many compo- 4!i7 Demands for Grants (Gen.j,BHADRA 14.191 3 (SAKA)Chemr'mls & Fertd~ne,Cki 458 1991-92 Mn. of Defence Min. of Avn'ation & Tourism etc nents are imported from abroad is cot at all rines, aircrafts, dress-tyres, frigates, big frig- true. Iwould like to mention that its engine ates, like Godawari or Rajput and these all has not so far been developed here properly. taken together can be helpful for the pro- The Present engine is imported Germany. tection of the sea and we have paid much but we would definitely develop an engine attention towards Navy. here, it may take few days or months or years. It is not a fact that 70 or 60 percent Here, Ido not agree with what shri Amal improved components are being used in it. It Dutta has stated. The protection of sea is even less than 50 per cent but our ultimate boundaries of lndia is not a small task. More aim is to build this tank completely than 80 percent Indian trade conducted hith- indigenously.. .(Interruptions). . . It has been erto has been conducted through the sea- commissioned. routes and during last year, the trade worth Rs. 70,000 Crores was done. All of our As far as the Commissioning of import and export transportation is carried L.C.A.project is concerned, much time has outfromthere .oiltanksonwhichour industry goneh it. It know that many hon. Members depends, come and go from there. So we in the House have enquired about it. We cannot neglect our Navy and I fully agree would not like to go back to the background. with Shri Ravle Saheb that when we ne- Iknow that it has taken enough time, but I glected our Armedforces, the Britisherscame would like to tell the House that even a big here and subjugated us. we should always country like America took 15 years to set up. pay attention towards our Navel forces. such a big project. While setting up a big (Interruptions) project like L.C.A.. we cannot overlook the fact that we had no infrastructure here. The Hon. member, Shri Sudhir Sawant has responsibility to prepare infrastructure also pointed out that the organisational set-up of rests with this Department. In the beginning, our army is not balanced one as 25 percent the engines are not very good, so we must of it is its teeth and 75 percent is tale. But in prepare a prototype design with an imported reality, it is not so. In Indian army, 52 percent engine and only then. it should be taken for is teeth comprising of infantry, armed cores. a trial, and then, it should be improved to the artillery, engineers, signals, these all work in best of ourcapability. We have paid attention combined support. Tale services are 48 towards this. I myself want to go to Banga- percent, comprising of supplycores, army bre next week, along with aeronautical ex- and Ordnance cores, E.M.Es, electrical and perts to study the entire project and find out mechanical engineers, army education- ways to remove defects if any, in it. cores, postal services etc. I would pay my personal attention to bring it down. Many of our hon. Members have par- ticipated in this discussion and gave certain (Interruptions) suggestions. Col. Ram Singh Saheb stated that there was no utility for aircraft carrier and I.N.S.Vikrant and Virat have become very Shri Chandra Jeet Yadav Saheb stated old. It is true that they have become old, and that the report of the Ministry was old one, they were old even when lndia purchased and contained old information. It contains these aircarft carriers. But they were reno- the names of the persons who are no more vated and these are proving to be useful the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister. even to-day. Our Navy got strengthened I would like to point out that this report is for with these aircraft carriers. Navy always the period from 1st April, 1990 to 31st March needs an integral air-support. Navy cannot 1991. At that time, its responsibility rested on succeed without the support of airforce when Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh and Shri hundreds of miles away on the sea. So, the Chandra Shekhar and so, their names have need for aircraft carriers cannot be over- appeared here. The name of the present emphasized. The fleet must be a balanced Defence Minister will appear in the report of one. Its pre-requisites are carriers, subma- the next year. (Interruptions) SHRl VISHWANATH PRATAP SlNGH paid to it. We would not be able to do justice (fdehpur) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is one to the Jawans ii we take decision in a hury. minute left for guilbtine and we have to Therefore, the Government have dedcled to speak about the issue of ex-servicemen? I constitute a committee under the chairman- fear that because of it, we may not get time. shipof the Minister of Defence. The MiWr of Finance, the Minister of State in the Min- SHRl SHARAD PAWAR:Guilktine may istry of Defence, Minister of State in tt10 be applied after 5 minutes. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievants, the questbn of national security was raised and Pensions, the Minister of State the Min- and Iwould like to point out that we have paid istry of law, Justice and company Affairs, 5 adequate attention towards this. Only two MPs and 4 representative of Ex-servicemen months have passed since the formation of would be other members of the Committee. thisGovemment, it will take some more time, It has been stated in terms of references. but adequate attention has been paid to It, So far the issue of National Security is ooncerned.. .. (lntemtptions) a) To review them existing pension Iwould not like to take too much time on structure and other retirement Defenceproduction. This year, a provision benefits of the Defence service d Rs. 25,00 crores has been made. Re- pensioners of the diiferent ranks garding the role of private who retire at different point of time; clector.(htenyptions) and '

Many hon. members have raised the b) Keeping all relevant wnsideratbns issue of one -rankone-pension. Iwould lie in view to evolve a feasblo ap- to say that Government have no feeling of proach for imphving their retire- dimination about those ex-servicemen ment benefits of the Defence pen- who have served the nation. They have sioners and to lay down the man- oowly sacrifiiforthesakeof the country, ner in which their cases my bedealt it is our duty to remember them and we with in a time-bound manner. intend to do so. Much attention has been pakl towards some of their demands such as [ Translation] accommodation, banks bans. So far, one- mnk, one pension, & concerned, I have lwould like to clarify 2 points. One is that discussed it with many hon. members and I the Committee will give its recommendations agree with lndrajit Guptaji'who had opined before December 31 ,I991. that the concept of one-rankone pension is rot sound. SHRl RAM VllAS PASWAN ( Rosera): Tho time limit can be further extended. The concept is right or wrong, that we would discuss afterwards. But what Shri SHRl SHARAD PAWAR: There is no Whwanath Pratap Sihdecided has been possibilhy of further extension. The Com- widely disatssed. He did ml approve the mittee will function on the basis of decision concept of 'One rank one pension, the de- taken on 1 November, 1990 but kept in cbbn was taken on adhoc ws. It was obeyanm and concentrate on finding the stated in dedsion that 90 percent army probable reforms. The dedsbn of November personnel would be benefited, but Ido not 81 will not be changed. The aim will be nd think so. Merely 8.5 percent of the Jawans only to give more benefits but to introduce will get the benefit. The decision taken in more reforms also. The Committee after 1990 owered only upto the ranks of Subedar taking the State Governments into amfC Major end not the offirs. Even in Jawans dence, will find our ways and means to eleo, 92 percent d them were not included it provide facilitii to the Ex-servicemen. Iam Therekre, more s#ontkn b raquked to be confidentthat IwilIgetthocraopersdbndd cut motions to the Demands for Grants relat- Iwoukl not like to take more time of the ing to theMinistry of Defence tovote together House. Ivisited a number of places during unless any hon. Member desires that any of Ihe last one and a half month, I went to his cut motions may be put separately. Sfadren, Jaisalmer, watched Naval exer- dses, inspectedthe production unit, Kanpur All the cut motbns were put and negatived and research Institute, Pune. I am glad to submiit to the House that the morale of our MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the Jawm in Siachin, posted at a height of Demands for Grants relating to the Ministry 22,000 feet is very high. They are always of Defence to vote. ready to fulfil all the responsibilities for the security of the country. Air force is providing The question is: full protection there to the Any; Navy is also performing their duty in a magnificent man- That the respective sums not ex- ner. Therefore, so far as the security of the ceeding the amounts on Revenue amtry is concerned, the Government is Account and Account shown in the &dent that our soldiers, be they high fourth column of the Order Paper be officers or of bwer rank, are doing their duty granted to the President. out of the p~operlyand are in a position to protect the ConsolidatedFundof India, tocomplete country. Wnh these words Iconclude. the sums necessary to defray the charges that will come in course of SHRl RAM NAlK (Bombay North) :Mr. payment during the year ending the Speaker, Sir, I agree to what the hon . 31st day of March, 1992, in respect of Minister of Defence has said. I therefore, the heads of Demands entered in the would like to withdraw my cut motions. second column there of against De- mand Nos. 16 to 22 relating to Ministry of Defence.'

MR. SPEAKER :I shall now put all the The motion was adopted