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/2.6$%+$6(&5(7$5,$7 1(:'(/+, 3ULFH5V CONTENTS rNinth Series, Vol. XIII, Sixth SClsion, 1991/1912 (Saka)] No. 10, Friday, January 11, ] 991 IPausa 2], 1912 (Sata)

COLPMNS Papers Laid on the Table ]-6

Message from Rajya Sabha 7

Rt:. Alleged Relnarks made by Prime Minister about 7-32 Functioning of Tamil Nadu Government

Re. Holding of UPSC Examinations in all Indian 34-40, language'i 46-58

Re. Establishment of Statutory Development Boards 41-46 for Vidarbha, Marathwada and Konkan in Maha- rashtra

Statement by Minister 86-90 The Budget Defictt-Aprd-November, 1990 Shri Ya'thwant Sinha

Central Agricultural Univer'lity BilJ- 'ntroduced 91

Joint Committee on Representation of the People 92-96 (Amendnlcnt) Bill Nomination of Members of Lok Sahha to the Committee

Matters under Rule 377 96-106 (0 Need to take steps to check increase In 96-97 accident<; on National Highways Shr) C. P. Mudala Giriyappa (ii) Need to give priority to construction of main 97 J'ailway line between Latur Road and Kunad- wadi via Osmanabad in Maharashtra Shli Arvind Tulshiram Kamble (Iii) Need to conduct U.P.S.C. Examinations in 98 all Indian languages Shri KapiJ Dev Sha~tri (iv) Need to expedite construction of Malayora 98-99 Railway Line from Angamaly to Achencoil in Kera'a Shri P. C. Thoma" (I) (ii)

COLUMNS (v) Need to reinstate the victimised railway 99 employees Shri A. K. Roy (vi) Need to implement National Industrial 99--·100 Tribunal award regarding payment of salary and allowances to employees of Regional Rural Banks at par with those of sponsored Banks Shri Chitta Basu (vIi) Need for adequate supply of LPG in the 100-101 country Shri Satynarayan Jatiya (viii) Need to streamline the procedure of issuing 101 Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribe(,j certificates Shri Chand Ram

(ix) Need to bring Hindustan Shipyard Limited. 102 Vishakhapatnam either under Ministry of Defence or merge it with the Shipping Corpo.. ration of India Shra Saifuddin Choudhury (x) Need to provide adequate facilities to weekly 103 and fortnightly local newspapers Shri Harish Rawat (xi) Need to construct a bY-rass near t.Tdaipur 103-104 in Rajasthan on Nationa Highway No.8 Shri Gulab Chand Kataria (xii) Need to take steps to provide drinking water H)4 in various regions of Jahanabad, Bihar Shri Ramashray Prasad Singh (xiii) Need to take steps for overall deveiopment 105 of Mithila region of Bihar Shri Bhogendra Jha (xiv) Need to declare Ajrner district of Rajasthan 106 as an industrially backward district Prof. Rasa Singh Rawat Cantonments (Amendment) Bill 106-107 Amendment made hy Rajya Sabha- A~reed Joint Committee on Acquired Immuno Deficiency 107-110 Syndrome (AIDS) Prevent10n Bill Nomination or Members of Lok Sabha to the Committee (iii)

COLUMN'S Discussion under Rule 193 110-156, 158-231 Situation in Punjab Shri L. K. Advani 110-128 Shri Bhajan Lal 129-144 Shri Kirpal Singh 144-156 Shri Kapil Dev Sha~tri 159-162 Shri Dinesh Singh 162-167 Shrimati Malint Bhattacharya 167-173 Shri Bhogendra Jha 173-180 Shrimati Bim? I Kaul Khalsa 180-186 Shri J.K. Gujral 186-198 Shri Kamal Chaudhry 198-201 Shri Chand Ranl 201-204 Shn Rain Krishan Yada v 204-206 Shri Mada n Lal Kill'rana 207-209 Shl i A. K. Roy 209-214 Shri Chandra Shekhar 215-231

Re. Progress of Inve~tigations into Bofors Case 231--235 Shri Madan Lal Khvrana Resolutions reo Gulf Crisis- Adnpted 156--158 Announcement b~ Speawer 215

Ob&ervation reo Receipt ot Inttrim Order from HIgh Court of Delhi Decision of the Speaker under Tenth Schedule of the 235-264 ConstItution Disquaiification of Members on Ground of Defection LOK SABHA DEBATES

LOK SABHA tures Corporation Limit- ed, Ca1cutta, for the year Friday, January 11, 1991/Pausa 21, 1989-90 along with Audi- 1912 (Saka) ed Accounts and comments of the Comptroller and The Lok Sabha nret at Eleven of the Auditor General thereon. Clock [Placed in Library. See No. LT. [MR. SPEAKER ill the Chair] 2107/91J

[Translation] (2) (i) A copy of the Annual Re- port (Hindi and English ver- SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA sions) of the Indian Jute In- (South Delhi): If Bjll on the St1tehood dustries Research Association, could be taken up today ...... Calcutta, for the year 1989-90 along with Audited Accounb. MR. SPEAKER: Let the proceed- ings go on smoothly. Please sit down. (ij) A copy of the Review Let us Jay the papers first. You will (Hindi and English versions) be allowed to tnake your submission Iby the Government on the latcr on. Purohitji. tJke your seat. working Q1f the Indian Jute Industries' Research Associa- 11.01 hrs. tion, Calcutta for the year 1989-90. PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE [Placed in Library. See No. LT. AnauaI Report of and Review on' the 2 J 08/911 working of the Natioaal Jute Manu- factures Corporafioo LCd. Cala.tta Notification under National Bichways &lid Indian Jute Industries Research Authority of India Act, 1911; ABDul Association, Calcutta for 1989-90 Report of and Review 08 the wotkinl of Mormupo Dock Labour B08I"d for [Translation] 1989·90

THE MINJSTER OF TEXTJLES [English] AND MINISTER OF FOOD PRO- CESSlNG INDUSTRIES (SHRI THE MINISTER OF WATER IIUKUMDEO NARAYAN YADAV): RESOURCES AND MINISTER OF Sir, I beg to lay on the table:- SURFACE TRANSPORT (SHRI (1) A copy each of the following MANUBHAI KOTADIA): Sir, I beg papers (Hindi and English ver- to ,lay on the Table- sions) under Sub-section (1) of (1) A copy of the National High- Section 619A of the Companies ways Authority of India (Bud· Act. 1956:- get, Accounts, Audit, Invest- (i) Review by the Govern- ment of Funds and Powers to ment on the working of the enter Premises) Ru1es. 1990 National Jute Manufac- (Hindi and English versions) tures Corporation Limit- published in Notification No. ed. Calcutta, for the year G.S.R. 704(E) in Gazette of 1989·90. India dated the 10th August, 1990 under section 37 of the (ii) Annual Report of the National Highways Authority National Jute Manufac- of India Act, 1988. Papers Laid JANUARY 11, 1991 Papers Laid 4

(2) A statement (Hindi and Eng- (2) (i) Review by the Govermnent on lish versions) showing reasons the working of the Engineers for delay in laying the papers India Limited for the year 1989- mentioned at (1) above. 90. [Pl~d in Library. See No. LT. (ii) Annual Report of the Engi- 2109 /91] neers India Limited for the year 1989-90 along with Audit- (3) (i) A copy of the Annual Re- ed Account~ anJ Comments 01 port (Hindi and EIJglish ver- the Comptroller and Auditor sions) of the Mormugao Dock General thereon. Labour Board for the year 1989-90 along with Audikd [Placed in Library. See No. LT. Accounts. 2112/91]

(ii) A copy of the Review Annual Report of and n.eview on the English by (Hindi and versions) working of Cenhai Council for Re;- the Governlncnt on the work- careb in Unani !\fcdicinc[', N('w Delhi ing of the !\'lormugao DOl:k for 1988-89 etc. Labour Board for the year 1989-90. [English] [Placed in Library. See No. LT. THE MiNISTER or l'l~ANCE 2110/91] (SliRl Y ASHWANT SI1\}-1A): Sir, on behaU of Dr. Shakeelur Rehl11an. I ADDIJ81 Repo« and Review on the beg to lay on the 'fable- working of the Bonpigaon Refinery Bind the Petro-Chemi\!als Ltd. and ( I) (i) A copy 01 the Annual R..:- EngiDecn India Ltd. for 1989-90 port (HinJi a nei English ver- sions) of the Central Council [TrallsLation] for Researdl in Unani Medi- THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN cine. New Uelhi. for the year 1988-89 along with Audited THE MINISTRY OF PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS AND DEPUTY Accounts. MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF Oi) A copy of the Review COMMUNICATION (SHRJ JAI (Hindi and English ver~ions) PARKASH): Sir, on behalf of Shri by the Government on the Satya Prakash MalJviya. 1 beg to lay working of the Central Coun- on the table a copy eal.:h of the follow- cil for Research in Unani Medi- ing papers (Hindi and English ver- cine. New Delhi. for the year sions) under Sub-section (J) of Section 1988·89. 619A of the Companies Act. 1956:- ~2) A statement (Hindi and Eng- J. (i) Review by the Government on lish versions) showing reasons the working of the Bongaigaon for delay in laying the papers Refinery and Petro-Chemicals mentioned at (1) above. Limited for the year 1989-90. [Placed in Library. See No. LT. (ii) Annual Report of the Bongai- 2113/91] gaon Refinery and Petro-Che- micals Limi!ed fJr the v~ar Notification under Delhi AdmiDl~tr. 1989-90 along with Audited doD Act, 1966 Accounts and Comments of the Comptroller and Auditor THE MINISTER OF STATE IN General thereon. THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI LALIT VIJOY SINGH): Sir, [Placed il1 Library. See No. LT. on behalf of Shri Subodh Kant Sahay, 2111/91] 1 beg to lay on the Table a copy of 5 Papers Laid PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) Papers Laid 6

the Notification No. S.O. 699(E) Hydro Development Corpo- (Hindi and English versions) publish- ration Limited for the year ed in Gazette of lndia dated the 12th 1989·90. September, 1990 containing Presi- dent's Order dated the 12th Septem- (2) Annual Report of the Tehri ber. .] 990 regarding suspension of Hydro Development Corpora- operatIon of certain provisions of tion Limited for the year 1989- Delhi Administration Act. 1966 for 90 along with Audited Ac- a further period of four months with counts and comments of the Comptroller and Auditor effect from 13th September, 19909 is- sued under section 31 of the Delhi General thereon. Administration Act. 1960. [Placed in Library. See No. LT. [Placed in Library. See No. LT. 2116/911 2114/911 Statement correcting reply to USQ Statement explaining reasolW for not No. 35S dt. 28-12-90 regardIng faU in laying iD time the Annual Report and collediOll8I of direct tax Audited Accounts of Goa Meat Com- plex Panaji for 1989·90 Limited!. [English] THE MINISTER OF STATE 1N THE MINISTER OF FINANCE THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRI- (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): Sir,on CULTURE AND CO-OPERATION behalf of Shri Digvijay Singh, I beg IN THE MINISTRY OF AGRI- to lay on the Table a statement (Hindi CULTURE (SHRI JAYANTILAL and English versions) correcting reply VIRCHANDBHt\T SHAH): Sir. I beg given on the 28th December. 1990 to to lay on the Table a statement Unstarred Question No. 355 by Dr. ~jndi and EngUsh versions) explain- Chinta Mohan. Shri Phool Chand Ing the reasons for not Jaying the Verma and Shri Kamal Nath, M.Ps. Annual Report and Audited Ac- regarding fall in collections from dir- c

[Placed in Library. See No. LT Notifialtioo under Spi~es Board, 1986 2115/91J . [Translafion] Annual Report of and Review OR the worldntf of The Tehri Hydro Deve- THE DEPUTY MINISTER TN lopment CorporatioD Ltd. for 1989-90 THE MINlSTRY OF COM~1ERCE (SHRI SHANTILAL PURUSHOT- TAM DAS PATEL): Sir. I beg to [Translation] Jay on the table a copy of the Notifi- c.ation N? S.O. 31 ~O (Hindi and Eng- THE MINISTER OF STA TE IN hgh versIons) publtshed in Gazette of THE MINTSTRY OF ENERGY India dated the 24th Nov~mber, ] 990 (~HRI BABANRAO DHAKANE): seeking to add certain spices to the SIr. J beg to lay on the Tn ble a copy sched~le to the Spices Board Act. each of the foUowing papers (Hindi 1986 lssued under proviso to clause and. English versions) under Sub- (n) of Section 2 of the said Act. section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act. J 956:- [Placed In Library. See No. LT. (1) Review by the Government on 2118/91] the working of the Tehti 7 Alleged remarks JANUARY 11, 1991 Functioning of 8 by P.M. about Tamil Nadu Govt.

11.03 hn. tion of grave impropriety. Yesterday, the Prime Minister, while intervening MESSAGE FROM RAJYA SABHA in the proceedings of this House, made certain indictments against the Chief [English] Minister of Tamil Nadu and the func- SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I tioning of the Tamil Nadu Govern- have to report the following message ment. He talked ahout the perform- received from the Secretary-General ance of the Tamil Nadu Government of Rajya Sabha:- and Sir, I am very sorry to find and T am equaUy angered that he made 'I am directed to inform the Lok one comment...... Sabha that the Rajya Sabha ~t iti THE MINISTER OF COM- sitting held on Tuesday, the 8th MERCE AND MINTSTER OF LAW January. 1991. adopted the AND JUSTICE (SHRI SlJBRAMA- following motion in regard to the NTAM SWAMY): Who had made? Committee on Public Accounts:- "That this House concurs in the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: recommendation of the Lok The Prime Minister. not you. Mr. Sabha that the Rajya Sabha do Swamy. every time I will not attack agree to nominate one mem- you: do not worry. ber from Rajya Sabha to asso- ciate with the Committee on Sir. I was surprised that the Prime Public Accounts of the Lok Minister said: "But the days are gone Sabha for the unexpired por- when the Government of India will tion of the term of the Com- be run from Madras". These are in mittee vice Shri Kamal Morarka the proceedings. (lnlerruptioru) who ceased to be a member of the Committee on his appoint- Please listen to me. You may dis- ment as a Minister of State. a~ree. As far as mv voice is concern- and do proceed to elect. in ed. you cannot suppress my voice. such manner as the Chairman ( Interruptions) may direct. one member from among the members of the MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Kunlaraman- House to serve on the said galam. will you pleas~ take your Committee.n seat? He win also hear your submis- sions. I am further to inform the Lok Sabha that in pursuance of the above PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I motion, Shri M. S. Gurupadaswamy. win listen to your submission. I have Member, Rajya Sabha. has been not misquoted him. I have quoted duly elected to the said cnnlmittee.' from the proceedings of the Lok Sabha published by the Lok Sabha Secre- tariat. He said. "Days are gone when 11.04 hrs. the Government of I nd ia will be con- ducted from Madras". RE. ALLEGED REMARKS MADE BY PRIME MlNISTER ABOUT Right from Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru FUNCfTONING OF TAMIL NADU up to Shri V. P. Singh, no Ptime GOVERNMENT Minister conducted the Government of India from Madra!. It is a reflection [English] ...... (lnterrUptiom) I must complete my submissions. (l,*"uptIons) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE (Rajapur): Mr. Speaker. Sir. I have MR. SPEAKER: I have permitted sought your permission to make a YOll to make submissions. Do not lis- liubmission on a very important ques- ten to them. 9 Alleged remarks PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) Functioning 0/ ]0 by P.M. about Tamil Nadu GOl'f.

PROF. MADHU l)ANDAVATE:J the Government is not functioning do not ,listen to theln. But my e:iTS do well'.) If it is not a 200d Govet oment, hear what they are shouting. are you going to i'm pose the Presi- dent's rule? Dr. Al11bedkar said, "Whe- I wish to point out to you that in ther any State Government is a good t~-IC ~o~!th, a sU'ipkion is created in the or bad Government, it is none of the minds. of the people that pH,bably this concern of the Central Government. is the prelude and background to im- It is the concern of the peor1e who pose the President's rule under article vote for the Government". T·his is what 356 in Tami) Nadu and dismiss the Dr. Ambedkar has said. (Interrup- DMK Government there. Thi'\ is not tions) I know. truth hurts you; I know Cle first time. 1t happened whenever ,Dr. Amb/~dkar hurts you~ 1 know. a State is holding views contrary to ~11'. Kunzru hurts you. that of the Centre. 1 'vould like to point out that in 1975 when the Mr. Kunzru has told Dr. Amhedkar national Emergency was proclaimett ...... {/nterruptions) you p:-obably remenlbcr that many freedom fighters in the second hattIe SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU . for freedom against Emergency were (Balasore): rose oper~tjng from Madras. The Govern- rnent was enraged and it was very MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Kundu. why a ngl'y with the DMK Goverr,ment say- are you standing up? ing, "you are opposed to the national Emr "gency". That (;(;vernment in the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I was not referring to Mr. Kundu. r Stn tc W'JS thrown out at that time. was referring to Kunl.rtl. Today a]so we find that hccau~e there is ~ National Front Government. Mr. Kunzru asked Dr. Ambedkar, DMK Government in the South. th~v if the performanl.:e of the State Gov- nre attempting the same. . ernment. al'~ording to them. is not good) according to them. the bw and I want to quote the proceedings of order situation is not !!ol)d. in thnt the Constituent Assem hly ...... " ...... L'Hse. will you utilise thi'i~ article'?

SHRT KADAMBUR M. R. JAN- Dr. AmbeJkar s3id: "R nTl ~NAN (Tirunelvelj): Point of order. T)MK party had a separate "I want this Article 356 to be a dead manifesto. They do not ~() hy your letter in the Constitut inn." Manifesto. (Interruptions) Even jf yOU imagine that the Govern- Oll.:nt is not a good Go\ernment. Arti- MR. SPEAKFR: He knows that de 356 cannot be promlll~ated. Only there is no point of order, when the ('onstitlltion in the State crumbled down. if there is a break- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: down of the Constitution in the State. Th:lnk }Ou for ruling out the point of then only you loan refer to it. order. T have to point out to YOU that with the concurrence of the leaders of all Further. T want to ten you one tl,e pa rties in this l-Touse. the former thing. When article 3~~ and its con- Speaker (/I'tlerruptions)-I am refer- tents were discus'le'd in the Constitu- ring to something ~lse---Shri Balram ent As~embly. Mr. KunlTU had raised .Takhar (lnlerruption.v}-·I am referring this. ouestion with Dr. Ambedkar who to something which is favourahle to was the Chairman of the Drafting them. (Interruptions) . . Committee. Mr. Kunzru asked th~ question: Is this article nctually dec] .. \'fR. SPEAKER: 1 hnve anowed aring the proclamation of Pres!dent's you. You should. speak. (/nle"up- rule in a State.· to be applied when tions) 2-6 LSSfND/91 It Alleged re/narks JANUARY 11. 1991 Functioning of 12 hy P.M. about Tamil Nadu Go,,!.

PROF. ~tADHU DANDAVATE: SHRI DINESH SINGH (Pratap- Shri Balram Jakhar, ",hen he W:.IS the garh): The hon. Mem,ber, Prof. $peaker of this House, called a meet- Madhu Dandavate complained about ing of aU the Leaders of the Opposi- something- that the Prime Minister tion as well as the ruling party then. said in the Houc;e yesterday. Now I They gave an assurance to the Spea- am not here to defend the Prime ker that "We wil,I not al10w the mat- Minister. I am sure his colleagues ters even pertaining to Home or any would do it. Put. in that process. other aspects within the jurisdiction of hon. Prof. Madhu Dandavate raised the State Government to be dj~cus!'ed certain other is~ues to which. with in this House.'~ Therefore. we never your permission. I would like to refer. discussed Bengal or Assam. We did not discuss Tamil Nadu or GujaT'at 0; He said that the Government should Madhya Pradesh because that is the not be judged. whether it is a good domain of the State Government. government or 'Nhcther it is a bad !!ovemment. W ~ entirely agree that in imposing a rllIe fronl the Presi- Unfortunately, the Prime Minister dent. we do not have to go into valid forgot all the aspects of the Constitu- iudgment of goyernment whether we tjon. I do not say that he deliberate- like its program1nes or not. But the ly forgot. It might be a lapse of crucial matter is whether it is able to nlemory. He has forgotten the fact carry out the Government under the that. according to the traditions and Constitution and that the Professor conventions of the House, nobody himself aQ:reed. would he a reason. to can discuss the State matters and he impose President's rule. cannot further disturb the psyche of the entire South and Tamil Nadu. PROF. MAD~IU DANDAVATE: He that days gone says the have I only said the theoretical and legal when Central Government was being and constitution,'l position. T did not run from Madras. This indictment say that such a situation exists in is a serious indictment. It is an in- Tamil, Nadu. Don't misinterpret me. dictment on part of Prime the the That is generally not done by you. Minister and, therefore, given I have Don't try to go astray. a notice that I should be allowed to raise this question of impropriety by SHRI OINE'SH SINGH: My the Prime Mini~ter. If Shri SubrJ- char~e is that the Professor i~ putting maniam Swamy commits impropriety. words in nly mouth which I have not I can understand. But. if Prime said. Minister commits impropriety. it is an impropriety committed on behalf PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: of the entire Government. I think it T am withdrawing words from your becomes a collective responsibility. mouth. - and therefore. I would like the Prinle Minister and the Speaker of the SHRT DTNESH SINGH: I have House to take note of this impro- not said whether the Government of priety and urge the Prinle Minister to Tanlil Nadu is heing governed as avoid this impropriety. nrovided in the Constitution or not. T said th~t the Professor has agreed Yeu should see to it that such inl- that if a Government does not func- propriety which hurts the psyche of tion within the Constitution. then the people in Tamilnadu is avoided President's rule can be imposed. in the future and the Prime Minister Therefore. the judgement that bas to is pulled up for this impropriety in be exercised is whether the Govern- this House. ment in Tamil Nadu is functioning under the Constitution or not. Ye!- MR, SPEAKER: Shri Dinesh terday, the Prime Minister was pleas- Singh will now speak. ed to give specific instances of how 13 Alleged relnarks PAUSA 21, 19]2 (SAKA) Functioning of 14 by I'.M. ab(lt,t Tamil Nadtt Govt. this Government is colluding with the inlmedia te past and the conduct of L'I 1 E which is an outside [olee in your Government. training our insurgents and helping create insurgency in the country as PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: also seHing arnlS to insurgents in In1mediate past is a part of history. other parts of the country .. .(lnler,up- tion.\) This is what has been done. SHRJ DINESH SINGH: Surely, this cannot be a Government If you not that, you would which functions under the Constitu- done not hive been in the position in which you are tion. I anl sure the hone Profe~sor just now. (Interruptions) will agree that if thc~e charges ,!fe valid -1 anl sure the Prime Minister would not make a statement Lightly DR. THAMBI DURAl (Karur)~ then the Tamil Nadu Government Sir, I also differ with Prof. Dandavate cannot be allowed to continue to en- to what he has SJid. Shri Dinesh courage insurgency it this country. Singh has aho said something. I have got certain points. It is espe- cially during Shri V. P. Singh's period. The only other {loint the hOI1. it especially during the period Profes'\or mentioned was th3t thl.: is of Prime Ml11ister said that the Central the Leader of the DMK Party. the C"iet Minister of Tamil Nadu ...... Government wa~ being run from Madras. ]t is not an aspersion on SH RJ f(. C. TY AGI (Hapur): He the South. It is not an asper[)ion on js not a Member of this House. He anybody. cannot refer to him. (lfllerrupfioll$) SHRI INDRAJJT GUPTA (Mid- DP THAMBI DURAl: I am napore): How can ~he Centr.t1 Go- not u~ing his name. 1 have said: 'the vernment be run fronl ~1adra~ '? 1 cader 01 the party'. He is the Chief t, ,1) isler of Tamil Nadu. (/nterrup- MR. SPEAKER: Let him con- lio/l.~ ) (. lude. ~/R. SPEAKER: tIe said: 'The SHRI DINESH SIr~(jH: This b DM ~< C;overnmenf. [)on't get ~ensi- what was happening when the Pro- tive on these is~u~. fC!'Isor was in Power. He used to take l:ue frofll there. UlJterl'llpti(Jn~) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATL' UJ{. I HAM HI DURAl: I cite an Sir, if he yields for a second, I would example of how he obeyed. There clarify the position. I have read out are t11any evidences how he obyed at from the Prinle Minhter"s speech. that time and also disobeyed. For He said: "The days are gone when Exanlple. when the Central Govern- the Government of India will be run ment at that time gave the direction, from Madras." Was the Central when the rPKF Party was coming Government. from the days of Pan- fronl Sri Lanka. to receive it --the dit Nehru to Shri V. P. Singh ever Chief Minister is supposed to go and run from Madras at all? (lnterrup- receive it-what he said wa~: "This is liolls) a murderous squad. It killed so many l amilians:' Therefore, by saying that, MR. SPEAKER: I have pertnit- he did not receive that Party. He ted Prof. Dandavate when Shti Dinesh dictated terms from there. Afterwards. Singh yielded. when the Sri Lankan refugees came, when the Centre requested him to SHRI DINESH SINGH: The accommodate them in Tamil Nadu Prime Minister was not going into he refused. He said: "That Group the history. He was ta1king of the from Sri Lanka is a separate Group. 15 AlleKed relllarks JANUARY) L ,1991 Funci iontng of ]6 by P.M. about Tal11111Vadu Govt.

[Dr. Thambi Durai] (Interruptions) If I allow it inside. then there will be OR. THAMBI DURAl: There is a lot of problems. Therefore, I can- no Menlber in the Lok Sabha of the not accommodate that group." So, the DMK Party. The people ba ve elected Central Government sent that group us to this House. (lfllerl'lIptivns) to Orissa. What were the sufferings they faced? l\fterwards, they once MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Nilish again caIne to Tamil Nadu. The Kumar, what has happened to you. Leader of that purty djed. There is Even if you do ntH like that argu- also another instance. When the Navy ment, you must be prepared to hear found out anns worth Rs. J 0 crores him. Let us not have a dabate. in Tamil Nadu along the Coastal area, no action has been taken. That (I lifer,. l'IJti( Ins) is why the Prime Minister clearly said: .. ] he days are gone when the [ rtlIIlM/alion] Government of Tamil Nadu will be run fronl Madras." Can you deny SHRI NITISH KUMAR (Barh): that'! .. .(lllte,,""ptiofl~) Mr. Speaker. Sir, this is Parlianlent. not .IaylaJita's housl: or drawjng rhe other thing is that whatever be IOOITI ...... the nature of the State Govenlnlents. they have to function according to MR. SPEAKER: Jayalalita is not tbe Constitution. If they go above a Member of this House. Constitution, they are against the interests of t he Central Govenllllent. [Engli.\h] That is why 1 want to add one thing. OUf Prinlc Mini~ter said that there is DR. THAMHI DURAl: We want a connection between the ULFA and to protect the denlocfdcy in our coun- the L TTE and then gave the evi- try. "1 his i~ the highest forum ...... dence. The Chief Minister ridiculed (l nlel'rllptions) him. What he said was: "Some in- ventions the Prime Minister has found out. ,. (bllerrUI)tiotJ~) MR. SPEAKER: My ptlint is. you have already advanced your argu- 1 can give evidence of how the ments in favour of this yesterday. Let Chief Minister is criticising. That is us not repeat it now. You confine why he said. "days are gone when your remarks to what Prof. Madhu the Governnlent of India can be run Dandavate ha~ said. from Madras." That is a fact. Nobody should deny it. (Interruptions) Arms (I flterruptions) culture must be eradicated from our country and the law and order must MR. SPEAKER: Please take your be maint'ained. Militant activHies seat. should be stopped. (Interruptions) L TTE may have their own genuine (IfllterrllptionlS) reasons for fighting in Sri Lanka. But they cannot use our nation for their DR. 1 HAM 131 DURAl: Our re .. own benefit. They cannot use our soil. quest is to safeguard our country and killing our own people to create chaos restore democracy in our State. We in our country. Our fear is that days must see to it that there must not have come when there wil1 be no be anti-national activities in Tamil democracy in Tamil Nadu. (ll1lerrup. Nadu. For that, let the Centre take (ions) severe action and, jf necessary, what we feel is. let the Central Government MR. SPEAKER: We are not dismiss the OMK Government imme- ha~jng a debate Mr. Thambi Durai. diately. (Interruptions) 17 Alleged remarks PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Functiollinf{ (1/ 10 by P.M. about ramil NaJII (rlJvt.

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your SHRi A. K. ROY: fv1y point of seat. I wiJJ call you. Let us not have order is that the House shouid cOlldul:t a debate. Mr. Choudhury, 1 will caB it~ business according to the list of you. busjue~s. Everyday we are c0111ing (lnter"uptions) here and observing that a few fortu- nate colleagues are monopolising thc MR. SPEAKER: What is happen- ~'nt in..' tim~ of th~ Z\!IO hour and ing'! I alll not aJIowing you. Mr. Kup- we sit as mute spectators and li~tcll puswaluy. please take your seat. The h) thenl like you. You also in your Speaker is speaking. wj~)donl aIJow thcnl.

(/ nterruptiofl~) MR. SPEAKER: I think the 1\,lcluber:o, who ll1ake their sllbmi~·· MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Prirne Mini~ ~jons will. heed to your request. If stcr. you were not here. Prof. Danda- 1\1r. A. K. Roy wants to say some- vale I (liseo an issue about yuur re- llllllg. '1il01: Id J ~a) 1 wor't allow? nhlrk~ on Central Government not 1 have al10wed you. YI)·.1 C:,ll under- heing governed from Madras. He stand my situation. Please 1 Jke your rai.sed an isslIc of propriety. '1 he ~eat 110W. Prime Minister is here. If 1 allow like this. then there wiU be a debate SHRI A. K. ROY: You ~hould and everybody would like to speJk. allow the back-benches of all par- I think, it would be better ...... tie~ also.

(/Ilterrllptiol1s) f\.lR. SPEAKER: I have alloweJ you. Now let us not start a Jebate. rfru'IM'iol jon1 SHRI SAJfUDDIN CHOU- MR. SPEAKER: 1 would request DHUR Y: Yesterday the '.;tatenlent the Mel1lher~ not to repeat the argu- of the Prime 1\1inister that days are ments they had put forth yesterday. gone when the Centra] Government They should ~onfine their remarks is run from Madras has hurt the only to the qlle~tion of propriety as psydle of the people 0:' Tamilnadu. raised by Dandavateji ... '...... \Vh:1t wa~ the difference between the situation that prevailed earlier and (Interruptions) during th{:, tinlc of tIll> National Front GovernJnent'? ]t is that a [Engli.\h] healthy. harmonious Centre-State relation was heing built. People. not MR. SPEAKER: Choudhuryji. only in Madras but in Calcutta, please confine your remarks only to Patna, Lucknow also started feeHng the question of propriety in two that they have a participation in mjnute~. the running of the country. (inter- ruptions) SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY (Katwa): In two minutes? SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivan- MR. SPEAKER: Yes. You are a drunl): They have no need to speak good parliamentarian. of values and the recommenuations of the Sarkaria Comnlission. \Vhcn they (/nterrllpJions) came to power. thirteen Governors were shifted like Upper Division Clerks. SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad): I am on a point of order. SHRI SAlFUDDIN CHOU· DHURY: You are well aWJre that MR. SPEAKER: What is your the kind of tradition that was set up point of order. during the earlier days, by the other 19 Alleged remarks JANUARY 11, 1991 Functioning of 20 by P.M. about T,unil NQ(iu Govt.

iSh. Saifuddin Choudhury) SHRl C. K. KUPPUSWAMY: (jovernnlent. was that the State Sir t during enlergellcy. they went Governments were sought to be run underground. Now, they are sup- fronl Delhi by !-.ubverting the Consti- porting hiIn. lution, by lllisl.lsing the artides of (f II: cn Ul't iC)n~) the Constitution. Th:lt really han1- pered the healthy development of the MR. SPEAKER: PJease t Jke your Centre-State relations ...... (interrup- seat. There is no point of order. tions) ...... If a threat is given, that is nothing but restoring the earlier (/IllerrUplioll~) position of extending the Centre's authority to the State Governments. MR. SPEAKER: I heard you, The Prime Mini~tcr was not at all there is no point of order. Please proper in saying that the (bys are sit dewn, Shri George Fernande~. !!onc when the Central Governmenl is ;un franl Madra~. I request him and ( Iflle,.rli[Jliol1~) I appeal to the Prin1e Minister. this statement has hurt the psyche of the [J rcm,\/atiofll people or Tamilnadu. that he muo.;t withdraw it. (Interruptions) SHRI GEORGE j'ERNANDES: He is correl:t. When there was dic- SHRI DHANUSKODI R. ATHI- tatorship in this country and I was fHAN (Tirunchendur): The people underground Shri Karll:1anidhi was of Tanlilnadu fully ratify the state- the Chief' Minister of Tamil Nadu ment of the Prime Mjni"tc~·. (111- and he helped us. I am proud of that. terrtlpt;ons) Shrimati Gandhi h~d remarked once that I had committed a heinous (franslallon] crime, therefore oon't rake up this i"'~lIe (lnterr"ptio/1.\) ~HRI ClEOR(iE F·ERNANlJES: {MuzaffarpurJ: Mr. Speaker, Sir, Prof. Dandavatc has raised a very MR. SPEAKER: P'ease ~it down foIerious matter. (/Il~erruptions) We {Interrupt ions) can read with equal might. We also have strength to shout like you. (In- SHIGEORGE FERNANDES: rhe hon. Prime Minister pointed out J\1R. SPEAKER: Dr. Thamhi a few things. He categorically said DuraL wh J t i.s your point of order? that the Centre would be ruled frOnl Delhi and would not go by the dic- (Illterru pi ions) tates from Madras. (Interruptions) rE fJ'1(1 ;.... 11] [EnRlish] SHRI C. K. KUPPUSWAMY SHR T A. CHARLES: Sir, it was (Coimhatore): Sir. 1 am un a point Shri V. P. Singh who was supporting or order. (/Ilterrliption~) this. (/nterrulJI ions) MR SPEAKER: Let us hear his MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Charles. you point ~f order. What is your point go to your seat first. of order? (Interruptions) (luterrUl1tiom) 21 Alleged renlarks PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) Functioning 0.1 22 by P. M. ahollf Tmnil Nodu GOl'l.

DR. THA~1BI D'URAl: Sir. I am MR. SPEAKER: Mr. George Fer- 011 a point of order. nandes, ple:lse confine your remarks to what Mr. Madhu Dandavate said. (Interruption..,,) (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of order? PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: (Interruptions) He is very consi~tent in that. (Inter- ruptions) DR. THA MBJ DURA I : Sir. just now Shri George Fernandes said about the regime of Shrimati Indira [Tran.~I(JI;onl Gandhi. (Interruptions) He described SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: the Central Rule as 'dictator rule'. He is annoying me ann that iC\ why I They tried to arrest him and he am cl drifying. Mr. Speaker Sir. I w~nt under-grcund (/llterrll[Jlir,ns) was ohjecting to the statement made wIth the help of Mr. Karunanidhi. by the Prime Minister becduse it e~caped. he (Interruption.\') 1hrows a challenge not only to MR. SPEAKER: There i'l no Tamil Nadu but a11 other States as well and there is a thre It of confron- point of order. tation ...... {/nterruptions) all right. DR. THAMRI DURAl: Sir, at We are ready to dbcuss the situation Nadu anywhere and any the same time. he ~aid about our in Tamil at Prime Minister that he was also ar- time. T have objection to his throw- rested. at th:.t tjme. (lnterruptio/ls) ing up a chal1enge, 1 have felt it that he further added ...... frrrlnslafinnl THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRT MR. SPEAKER: A~ tl )day j" the CHANDRA SHEKHAR): 1 would last day we wjll proceed -as you merely like to ask him where is the wish. ch~l!e~ge? There is no challenge. ( InlerrllPlions) ThJS 1S on record ...... '(In,lerruptions) So far as propriety is concerned Mr. I English] Speaker. Sir. if you say Ih:lt there haS' ~ome impropriety on mv DR. THAMBI DURAl: I want ht."'en part. would apologize. On the to add that since Shri Chandra J Shekhar was a law-abiding citizen. he contrary. I have said that 1 do not want any challenge. I do not want was arrested. But Shri Goerge Fer- to he emhroiled in controver~ie.;; and nandes never abode the law of the he says 1 have Ihrown a cha11enge. land and he eSC3 ned with the hell" of Mr. Karunanidhi and survived. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: MR. SPEAKER: There is no By saying this you have thrown a point of order. You had your say. chal1cnge. - please sit down. (In1errupfion.\ ) SHRT CHANDRA SJ1EKHAR: No. there is no question of rhalIenge. [Tr(llnf/otionJ SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES; SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Speaker Sir. I am glad that he This .matter has been engaging the still realises that attentIon of the House for the past m'lny d:1YS. Ohiection'l have' been rEnf!li.~h] rai~ed on the Prime Ministers' state- it was t,he law .. Jess Government that ment within the House as welJ as pt·t a law-abiding citizen in jai. (In- fJufliiide the House. Yesterd,ty the terru"Iions) Prime Minister threatened and that 23 Alleged remar/;;fj JANUARY 11. 1991 Functiomng of 24 by P.M. ahout Tamil Nadu Govt.

[Sh. George Fernande.;;l :. pnin the lnattrr of the Prim~ T\1iniliw was most objectionable .. .(lnterrllp~ trr\ statement th:tt day. (/nterrup- W~ tions) .. . He said that the Centre was tj('ns) should restrict our discus- functioning on the dictates from sion just now to thi~ matter. Again Madras ...... My friend Shri Dinesh if we' go into ULFA and LTTE ...... Singh said here that Prof. Dlndavate ( Iliterrllpt;on\') should know which Government the f\1 R. SPEAKER: 1 am reque5,ting Prime Minister meant-he was refer- l\1r. George Fernan~e~ to conc1t~de rin!! to the previous Government so that the Prime M1nlster can gIve which lasted for about a year. Tanlil a clarification which Mr. Dandavate Nadu was discussed many tinles in wanted. this House, particularJy. the func- tionin!! of the Government there. But SlIRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: T have 1 do not remen1ber whether at any onl\ one remark to make. Neither point of time any Member levelled the" Government of Tamil Nadu can charges against V. P. Singh Govern- rtJO the Government of Delhi nor the ment th:lt the centre functioned on Government of Delhi can fHn the the advice received from Tamil Nadu. Government of Tamil Nadu. We The Government does not stand for are living in a federal polity. T~e Prime Minister. The Government Conlititution has laid down qUite mean'\ its performCince. When the clearly what are the powers and res~ Prime Minister talks of toppling the ponsibj1ities and duties of the Cen- Government and that the Government tre and the States. (Interruptions) wu'\ fllnrtionint! on the direction~ re~ Therefore, I do not think perhaps ceived from Tamil Nadu, it is not an the Prime Minister can think about in<\ult to an individual but to the in- it. There is no need to make are· stitution of Government itself and mark of this kind 3t all whether onr Government of India as a whole. Government is Tun by the other. whe- That is the main objection. I would ther it j,-: Cf·"tr~ Of ;~ the State. (InIP "- like the Prime Minister to withdraw ruptiol1s) Thh reffects the idea into his word.., .. .(lnterruptions) T would the whole con.;;titntiona 1 po~itjon like to ~hare with other Members. who which j~ m(\st unfortunate because r3ised l"atter~ relat~d to the Tamil we are not talking about either St:lte\\ Nudu Government that present Gov- 'hdno- dktah"d to by thl' C,'ntre or ernment know~ what i.;; the relation- the ("entre beini' dictated to hv the ~hjp between L TTE 'and lTLFA. Rut State~ Do vou suoport that po~ition or if '\omebodv sav'i that there is nexus n<'t we want to know. Whv do yOll hetween these ontfits nnd the Tamil want to be given nrecedence over thf" Nadu (Jovem1l1enL that would he other? It is very wrong to make n wrong. (hrterrllptio/1') sl1~gestion like that. If vou want to rEn~li.\'" deC\trov the federal structure of our Constitution. then it is a different MR. SPEAKER = You can onlv m:1tter. (In((',.ruPf;(ln~) advance counter arl!ument,~. (In- terruptions) Ple'lse take vOnr seat. rT rn nslation 1 ( Interru.nrinn") SHRT GEORGE FERNANDES: rTran~l(lt;()nl Mr. Speaker. Sir. 1 would conclude within two minutes. Wh~t is the reo SHRT (jEORGF FERNANDES: lntion between ULFA and LTTE? Twill ('onchHlr. hllt rl~:tse re.;;trnin flnrerruptions) An impression is be- them. ln~ rrN\i('d that there is c;;ome relation rEngli.r;hl hetween the elected Govearnment of Tomil Narlu Rnd ULFA. 'I h~t j~ barl SHRI TNDRAJIT GUPTA: Prof. and should not be done. Secondly if Dandavafe thought fit today to raise T TTF. ilO; JlilinA up arms in the 25 Alleged remarks PAUSA 2], 1912 (SAKA) F~n~tioning oj 26 by P.M. about Tamil Nadu Go vt.

State .. .(/nterrupti0tlS). that is not Sathe from ~peaking. But kindly right. An hone Member said that they hear me also. SIr. ([lllIerruptions) should not operate from Tamil Nadu but infact they got the entire train- MR. SPEAKER: You want to ~ng i~ our country. They got training raise a point of order. Under, which In Htrakud. They got training in our rule do you want to raise your point country. This problem has a history of order? . of 5-7-years. (Interruptions) (Interruptions) SHRI SAMARENDRA KlTNDU: [Enf?lish] Sir, I am raising my point of order DR. THAMBI DURAl: What under the usual rules in the Rules action did you take at that time? of Procedure. When a Member rais- ( Inlerruptions) es a point of order, you should not cross-examine him as to which rule SHRI KADAMBUR M. R. JANAR- he is applying to his point of order .. DHANAN: Can you prove it? (In- ...... (Interruptions) ...... When Prof. terruPtions) Madhu Dandavate raised this point, the hone Prime Minister spoke one line and I would like to read that [T ralns/a'tion ] also to you. . . , .(Interruptions)...... SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I know that when he had s3id it. I would urge upon the Hon. Prime he does not mean it ' .. .(lnterrup- Minic;ter that :. ([l1lerruption,s)... he tiom) ...... We want the unity of lihould treat all the state" equally India. We want that the States should (Interruptions) .. . including. of course. al'io be strengthened. They are our Madhya Pradesh and Haryana ...... eyes: they are our lips They should (InterrupliOn~) .... where labourers be strengthened. There should be a have not been given the right even harmonious nexu,\ between the States to form their union .. .(/1'Jterrupfi'Ons) dnd th(' Centre. Tht: State's autonomy win aJso strengthen the federal sys- tem. But wh,Jt the Prime Minister SHRTMATI SUBHASIDNI ALI had said was perhaps under emotion (Kanpur): In Faridabad women ~r .political compuJsion. Tn any case. wokers were dragged and beaten. You It 1') not good. The last Government people do not feel ashamed of thj" was aiming at a harmonious relation act .. .(Interruptions)... - with the States and we had excel1ent re1ations with the St3fes ...... [English] {Inter- ruptions) ...... 1 am reading what e~- SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: dctly the Prime Minister spoke. ·'1 Sir. I have been asking your permis- assure you the Government has no sion to raise my point. I have got intention to dismiss Mr. Karunanidh:t·s three points of order. I do not know Government but the performance of why you are so angry with me. You the Government in this regard bas do not anow me to speak at aU. (In- heen far less th3n satisfactory and te"'uptions) I hope '-Ar. Karunanidhi should not 00 on givjng ~tatement~ chat1enp.ing the Government of India." The [TranslaJ ion] PriQle Minister had pre-iudged the MR. SPEAKER: No. no, this is issue by this statement. Perhaps be did not want make it but made not ~ point of order, please speak, on to he a polnt of order. it by party c()mpulsion~ o.r tbe poHti- <:"31 situation in which he has now o~ed himself. Tlli~ ~ves a wrong [EngJish] t , ilDpr.e~sion tQ. the country that ann ,SHIt}" SAMARBNDRA· KUNDU·: twist is beHUl: indQlg~ f~om ~fh~ ,Con.' I do not want _.to step "by, frieD4. Mr. tre here at 'Delhi. (InterTuPtiO~) ...... 3-6 LSSfND/91 21 A I/eged r~mQ,.k \ JANUARY 11. 199J Funf'fio'lling 0,. 2R h'V P. H. ahofd Tan,i/ NatJu Govt. rSh. Samarendra Xundu] SHRIMATI SUBHASHINI ALI: Except when you do it! I want the Prime Minister to cor· reet his statement or it should be expunged or the Prime Minister SHRI VASANT SATHE: Let u.s should bring a suitable amendment to see. Whether you do it or we do It his statement or withdraw it. (1",t'I'· or anybody does it. it should not be done. (/ntt'rruptions) fupfio"s) rT rrm.vllllJ ion) SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: Y nu r Governnlent has created all the MR. SPEAKER: Don't you know trouble. T know that you were ru~n­ the rules regarding expunctions? ing 16 centres where you were traIn- ing militants, giving arms and am- ( Interruptions) munition. It is strange that when other~ [E"~;,vh] "llU do it. it is good and when do it. it is bad. By this sort of dis- SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: t011ed vh,ion. we will he ~poiling our The Prime Mini(\ter ~hould nlake an relation with the State". (Inferrup- ~lmendment to his statement or should t iO",,~) withdraw it because it gives a wrong imprc~'\ion to th(' country (1111('# '"p- SHRT VASANT SATHE: Sir. you 1;0"8) do not allow Mr. Kundu to interrupt ,\ hile T ~peak. (Inft*rrupt;ons) MR. SPEAK ER : rhi~ i~ not a point of order. Mr. Vasant Sathe. MR. SPEAKER: You address the Speaker and not Mr. Kundu. I have (hllerruplioJ1.\ ) not anowed him to speak. SHRI VASANT SATHE (War- ( InferrupriOllf,) dha): I think we are unneces~ari1y trying to create heat on a m~tter SHRI VASANT SATHE: At which was solved yesterday In a ka!iit thos~ who have had been t.h~ re~­ very dignified manner. If you see ronsibi1ity of running the admlDlstra- the whole ~peech and the full con- tion of this country, at one point of text of the "Ipeech of the Prime time or another will be patriotic Minister. we can find that the thrust rnollfth to know what we did in th~ of hi~ 'peech wa4l\ that \\~ dl) nn1 natjo~al interest. whether in the case want any confrontation with t~e of Bangladesh or in the case of Sri State~. 1 think we all agree on thJ~ Lanka. Hi storically or right from 1942 point that we do no want any con- movement. it i, unfortunate that they frontation between the Centre and hove taken It'ad not from the national the States. I do not think there is interest but either at the instance of ~tny difference on that. f n r~~ct. he ~omebody in Germany or Moscow. ha..~ concluded by saying that we will have 10 think 100 tjmes before we do Wha t can you do with the ~ple anything to de.~tabillise the . Gove!~· ment of Tamil Nadu. If thIs sprnt like them? T am not complaInIng J~!ajnst them but no patriotic person is to be taken Sh. I would like to this country would ever say that know whether there i~ any person in in this countrv or in this House who any such activity done in any part of would ever" sav that anv activity of t he country can be considered either patriotic or in the national intere.~. ~upportjnl the" secessioniR.. ts: ~ppJy. ina. ar.ms to them or t~lnlng t~C:Dl frran,\lation] can he considered a natlonal actJV1ty or can be tolerated in any part of the SHRI MADANLAL KHURANA country. 1 know tbat nobody win fSoutll Delbi): Mr. Speaker. Sir. first lIy sQ. Delhi dtouJd be discussed. 29 Aikged rt'/IUI,.K\., PAUSA 2J, IYJ2 (SAKA) FUllCliOHI"f of 30 b.v P.M. about T t1111 i/ N ac/II G ()11' ,

MR. SPEAKER: After that .. ," ... say. all th ..1t the Prime Minister .said ycsl~lJLl) WLl" a ... tatenlcot of t'a"t, (11l.je"·upli(}n~) and t hcr~ j" nothing wrong in that.

[EIlBIi~h] f\,1 R. SPEAKER: y ~~. f\.1r. Prinle Minister. SHRJ V ASANT SA THE; All thdt the Prime Mini~ter yesterday ~aid SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: \Vu~ that neither any Slate ~ hcthcr it r..1r. Speaker. Sir ...... (}nlerl'UIJtio/U) ib Bombay. Cakutta. Maoras or Hyde- rabad. J 1,llll.\!alloll]

SHRI BANWARILAL PUROHI I SHR I L. K. ADV AN I (Ne~ Delhi): (Nagpur): Nor Nagpur. [\11 r. Speaker. Sir. J con~iuer one ~. kl1~~ in the ~tatemt»llt made by Shri SHRI V ASAN'1 SA I HE: No, J)anda\Jal~ ,~ \\ rong. ~agpur i~ nUL a Capital. Neither any ~late should be run from het e and Il:llgli.\h I nor !'hould Delhi be run trtJIll any i~ other State. What wrong in that'? J \\ouJd re!:wrd It a'-l all I.mhappy ob- I do not understand why al e they '\~I\atioll though if )OU ti.tke thrubt kehng so worked up. Al.IUally ",hal dt thl' \\ Ih)h; ,>p~~i:h. you cannot take j~ happening is that it i~ the people ~·\l.·~·rlillll". J h\!urd the Pdnle ~1inj~­ t rom Calcutta who seem to be more h:r )~~h:ldu}. Oandu\UkJi \\11~ not worked up about wh~tt i~ happening there. But I do feel (hat when that ~adu in I amll than tIll': p,-,upk ol one ~l.!nl~IlC~ b quoted by itsdf that I ami] Nadu. There is ~ome guHly- h~reafter tht! GO\Jerntnenl of ! ndia h con~ience. Thi~ is the result oi not going to b~ run from Madra~. by guilty conscience. Not one M.P. ibeJf it doe~ create an impre~sio" fronl Taolil Nadu in Lok Sabha but \\ hich can b~ r~gank'c1 ,,~ l'nlortu- all ~he M.Ps. who are here are l1n~ nate. Though the fact band r would .tllltnOI]' in their view that , ... :ull I.., 'lay that ~\en though I agree \vith th~ haprening on the ~oil of Tamil Nadu broad thrl1~t of the Statenlcnt made tod.ay is anti-national. hy th~ Prim~ Minbtcr, it would be a totaJ1~ v. rong "tntetnent to 'iay that SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Delhi or the Government of rndia What anti-national? anterrltpll ( ill'S) \\ 41'" be ing govenH:d by Madra~. Thi~ II., a \\ rong stat~Tn~nt. After all I have PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: heen re~pon1'lible for the: tan of pre- What the previous Government ~aid \ iOll~ Government but \.iurillg tbe en- about Punjab, they are saying about I i1 e period all that I would" ~ay that Tamil Nadu. (/nJe"uptions) ill ~o far a, the limited j~"ue of L'ITE i~ concerned. on that New SHRI VASANT SATHE: Kindly Delhi \\ a~ hdplc~s: Ne\\ Delhi was 'ee. Sir. a State Government which unahle to take any action. This is a cannot control the terrorists activities fact. This is a hard reality. There- is saying the other day Chief ~ ~ illister fore. I would not take exceptions to himself e"pre~sed surpri~e and re- the tbrulit of the Prlrne Mjnistcrt~ gret-that such a thing should have ..,lalemenl made yesterday though some been done. on their Jand. Is this not of the r~mark" were unhappy and I am :.l matter of serious concern? Where ~ure he \dl1 clarify theln. from these terrorists who gunned down these 17 persons sot arms like SHR,l INDRAJIT GUPT A: Sir. 1 AK -47? That j~ what the Prime have no objection to the Prime Minis- Ministe! said yesterday that they JOt ter's "aying-- a~ he said that day. if it from l TIE people in Tamil Nadu. J recal1 rillhtlv that !,one 8(e tbe Thi\o, i'l what is serio\l~. That is why day~ when '"' the Centrel) Governntent 31 Alle~ed r~marks JAl

(Sh. Indrajit Gupta] One of my friends j Shri Kundu could be run by from Madras; if he said that I have no right to say that has also said that gone are the days the work of a State Government is not when the Government of Madras satbfactory. 1 don't think that the could be run from Centre. I would Prinle Mini~ter i~ under obligation to have no objection to that but unfor- give certliicates if he thinks that tunately he !laid only one parl as th i ngs are going otherwise. 1t is not thc>ugh be'fpre that the Government at only my right. it is my responsibility Delhi was being run fronl Madras and duty to say that this particular and nothing else was required to be State Government is not going on the said. This is what I say goes against proper lines. the spirit of the federal character of 1 a~surc my friend Shri Indrajit State. Neither to the other. the is run Gupta I have no intention to give They have got their own rights and threat&. I don't want confrontation. responsibiJitiec;; and that should be f want that there should be a spirit cleared up instead of creating con- of reconciliation. fusion. I have great affection and regard SHRI CHANDRA SHEKI-IAR: for my friend Prof. Madhu Danda- Mr. Speaker. Sir. 1 aln glad that the LeQder of the Opposition has clari- vate. fied the situation. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: 1 also reciprocate that. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: And made a suggestion to you also. 12.00 hrs. 'SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: YeS, a suggestion to me also. No. you have not reciprocated it. He does not see any objection in That is what I say. In this very House, my Statement made before the Hou~c not once or twice. but many a timc~ yesterday. Mr. Speaker~ Sir, first I it was said that this Government was shall like to bring to your notice and being run by ATADMK. You did not fot your kind consideration the speech think of propriety at that time! The that T made was made in thh House Gov~rnmcnt i~ run by me and if you in the presence of all the MClnbers. have any doubt. that doubt will be Not one person raised a voice that dispelled in a very short iinle. But there was something objectionable or at that time. sense of propriety cid not improper. It is a new tradition that ~trike the mind of my friend. Mr. is being established in the Lok Sabha Madhu Dandavate. 1 did not reply that the speech is quoted afterwards in the harsh language in which those and how the speech ShOll Id have been charge') were levelled in this very made is being interpreted. The House. not by 9ne member but by Leader of the Opposition said that this a chorus of voices on your side. Mr. was an unhappy expression. 'shall Madhu Dandavate. But you did not not contest his point of view but see anything objectionable in it. every Speaker has not the same abi- lity-to speak in the satne language-- My friend Mr. George Fernandes as 1he Leader of the Opposition can made the picture clear. He ha~ said be credited with. There was nothing that he is not worried ~ bout the unparliamentary. nothing improper Tamil Nadu Sarkar. He is worried and all that ] said in my speech was about the certificate to the Vishwanath that T have seen a statement from Pratap Sarkar, of which I was also a the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu and part. If his objection is that. T stick it was in resnonse of that 3tatement to this view that that Government of the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu w~s totally inefficient and illeffective tnat I Baid it. It is "better jf the Government· and I am still ashamed Leader of the Opposition had referr- of the fact that I was a part of it. ed to that too. 33 PAUSA 2J, 1912 (SAKA) Holdillg oj VPsc 34 EXQlns. in 01/ Indian lAnguuges

[Trans/otion ] uilJ all of us to n~3{c,;t the court 'I cieri ,tnd ,"ontinue c ~r work. 1 rise SHRI L. K. ADVANI (New Delhi): ,,'11 th·.! last day of th~ ~I!~sion )41st t') Mr. Speaker, Sir...... nj~ ke lhi~ submission. that the matter ~hOllld be decided b.!foJ"! th~ ~e~sion MR. SPEAKER: PurohitJi, I will ends and it is not proper either for call you, I remember. First I have the ill gust l-Iouse ur fe. the hone called the leader of the opposition. Members who are facing this charge, to keep it undecided. I would. there- SHRI L. K. ADVANI: Mr. Speaker, f 'rt:. likt> to request V)\1 to tclkt" a decision whether they are guilty of Sir~ today is the last day of the session and one issue which has been repea- defection or their party has under- tedly raised directly or indirectly gone a split legally. before the current session comes to an end today. during this short session. concern~ those hone Members of the House Your early decision in the matter who are said to be guilty of defec- will do JlIstice, not only to the hone Members but al&o to the august tion. This case is under your con- sideration. Mr. Speaker, Sir. the House. The court hab inlerf~red in Parliament had unanimously passed our work. The day before YC'iterday I took strong exception to this move the anti~defection bill. Evervonc of U~ lnu~t remember that it does not and the .House unaninlously support- only provide for defection but also ed my VIew. You were also kind en- provide for a division or break up in ough to give your consent to it. Our a political party. approach was not at all a formality. It was not a matter of law or it was not our theoretical stand. But we stick SEVERAL HON. fvlE]\IIBERS: to this stand in letter and -spirit. Your This is absolutely right. early decision will be a tru~ testi.. mony of thl1t stand. I feel that you SHRI L. K. ADVANI: If these have to crOS5 examine tIle people and facts are not kept in view and the collect information whether there was present Government is continued to be any significant point. whether the ca11ed the Government of defectors. or hem. Members willing]y crossed the all individual is called 3. defector. it floor or they were compelled to do wou1d not be justified. I am ptlint- ~o and steps taken by the Members on jpg oct this aspect becau~c at that different dates. I would only like to tinlc no one opposed the provision lnake a request to you to give your in which it has been slated under decision by today evening. para 3 that anyone who joins an- other party in &uch drcunl~tances would not be considered a defector. [n the same schedule 10 there is a 11.07 hrs. provision that the malt~r should be decided at the earliest and the authori- RE. HOLDING OF UPSC EXAMJ- ty fOT this was vested in the Speaker of Lok Sa bha or the Chairlnan of NAT[ONS IN ALL INDIAN Rajya Sabha as the case may be. \\'e LANGUAGES a1so provided that no court would be allowed to intervene. Unfortunately. r TI·all.~ lation] this time the Governnlent cOlnlnitted a serious mistake by submitting an PROF. VIJAY KUMAR MAL- afiidavit in tb~ court. as a result of ~OTRA (DeJh~ Sadar): Mr. Speaker", whkh orders were issued b;, the court SIr. I would lIke to sublnit that on rc:>trah·,;ng the Spea~'!r frmn taking 16 January. 1968, this august HOUle an" action in the tTl1lt~ ... r. 1 don"t want had unanimously adopted a Resolu- to ,raise the issU~ 8eain. I would tion that the U.P.S.C. and an other merely like to _sty that it was absolu- examination conducting agencies tely right on the part of the House should conduct the examination in all 35 I/o/ding oJ UPSC JANUARY 11, 199) 36 EXQII1S. il'l all

{Prof. Vijay Kumar Malhotra] cd and U.P.S.C. and other ~xalRina· "the Indian language~. whether they tions will be conducted in 1ndian )an- are languages of the South or North guagl'S. or BangIa. Mr. Speaker. Sir~ 1 will just Inake Mr. Speaker, Sir, no action has one mort: slIbnlission. It pertains to b~ell taken to implenleut th~ Resolu- the incident that took place in Punjab tion that was unanitnously passed in ycst~rday. In Amritsar. people have 1968. It was withheld. Thereafter. been given Khalistani currency. They when this matter was raic.;ed time and ha~~ b\!~1\ asked to usc Khali.~tani again last year, the Central Govern- t..:lIl"rency and not to doal in rndiall Jncnt appointed the Satish Chandra l.'llrrcIICY. Today business in entire COLlIDlittee. The report of Satish Amritsar hu') stopp~d. nusin\!~s has Chandra Cl)lllnlitkc was laid un the come to a standstill in the whole of Table of th~ How~l' in the Inonth of PunJab. No cheque is bdllg jssued rv1ay. T ~11 months havl" pas!)ed in th ..' ~tat~. Ther~ arlo! jll~tructjons since May last. but lhe report has thai. a'\ lung u:-, cheques are not sign- not been rublishcd. No action has ed in Punjabi, these cannot be issued. been taken on this report. ~Jr. Speaker. Khali!-.tani curr~ncy i~ in circulation Sir, nobod' has any ohiet:tion to con- and cheques are not being io;~lled in d lIcti ilg \h~c cxamii1a lil)li"l in English the State. AU these factors are ad- but th~ l'xaminations shouki ~tr:luJtan­ versely aff~cting the trade and cOin· COLI '') Iv hL' conducted in Han~da. 111cr('C' in Punjab. 1t is a v'ery serious HindL ",t Illjj and other Indian lan- math.'r. guages also. Let m~ explain as to ,\ hv exall1jnation~ are not being C'Ol1(il.,c'ted in Tndiull languages. It is J\1R. SPEAKER: 1t 1'\ CilOU~h. 8hri dut! t,) vested interests of English Hari",h Rawat. knowing people. They have hccn holding an the key posts in the I'R(')I·. VIJA Y Kll.J ,\R ~1ALHO­ Government. Ninety eight per ~I.!nt of TRA: Yon as well as thl: OtWt'nlment population living villages Tndian in d'utdd also pay attention 10 it. and hackward ar~a" rema in deprived of thl..'s~ key posts. Mr. Speaker. Sir. (Interruptions) 323 hnn. Mcmber~ from all ~ections of the House put their ~ignatllres and ~1R. mad~' a demand that examinati,)ns be SPEAKER: I would like to conducted in Indian languagc!-.. Most say thjs much that it is a very import- of the hon. Members from the m;t matter. The Government should lool into it~ Shri Harish Rawa. 'Rajya Sabha al\;() r,;ubtnittcd 13 ~ti- t ion separately. Even then. a (·eC1Slon {11lterrlll'tiOns') II) that ,,'tIed ha~ been stalled. EXit" ,ninations cannot be held in Indian languages because of a conspiracy by SHRf BANWARILAL PUROHIT some of the officers in Home Ministry (Na~pur): Mr. Speaker. Sir. J was as- who want supremacy of English. sured that 1 would be the 1irst person They want to keep the enOlnlon man to be called to raise nly point in the awu~' from these examinations. Mr. H'ouse to-day. But even O\lW 1 am Speaker. Sir. Shri .~evi Lal. ha~ time not being provided an op~unity. (lnd 8l!ain been raIsIng the ISSt1~ that When an assurance had been given to the HVllH.! standnrd of p~opte living m~. whv Twa'.; not anow,,~d first to in Tural a~reas ~hould be improved. But raise my point? whv he is silent over this s~ril)US matter that examinationc; cannot be conducted in any Indian Language, MR. SPEAKER: You wil1 also p}:f'r'''e" Rc.\ n,em to give an assura~ce he give" un opportunity. wbat is t~) th~ HOll~e that report of the Sa~]sh 'here in it. Purohitji. please take C1tandfl Committee w,1t be pllhhsh- your" S~(lt now. Shri Harisb Ruwal. 37 II()/(Jing 0.1 UPSC PAUSA 21. 1912 (SAKA) Exam.". ;17 all

IF.1I~1i.'h] PROF. MAHADEO SHIWAN- KAR (Chimur): ~1r. Speaker. Sir. SHRI RAMAM\JRTHY (Kri'ihna- yesterday. when the hon. Deputy giri): Sir. I have given a llotice. Speaker was in the chair ...... (Inter- rllp,tin'frs) r T 1 nns Inlion] MR. SPEAKER. I have heard TI-ffi MINISTER or COMMERCE you. I will allow you. Now. please t\ND MINISTER or LAW AND take your sea t. .I{TSnCE (SHRI SUBRAM,\NJAM SWAMY): Sir. has he given 'lny notice SHRI MADAN LAL KHU- to you? RANA: Mr. Speaker. Sir. you please give directions to the Government. MR. SPEAKER: N '. ther~ i"i n(1 notice with me. Plea~e hlk,' ~'our seat MR SPEAKER: The Gove111- (Inferruptionr) ment i~ hearing the sentiments of the entire House. Shri Harish rEn~lish] Rawnt. SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: J have given a notice. SARI HARISH RAWA T (A1- mora)' Mr. Speaker. Sir. the ques~ MR. SPEAKER: Please take your tion of Indian languages is a very seat. No notice is there. important issue. but it has become a habit of the people sitting on the (L nterr uption.s ) other side that they do not want to fisten even if somebody wants to sup- rTran.~}fllio11J] port their stand. The matter that was raised by Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra MR. SPEAKER : Perhar~t you in the House is a very important did not listen. but J have a1ready matter and I also support his view. said that 1 favour holding of examina- I think that this House is also unw tiODt; in Indian Jangu l3ges. .lnimous on this issue. As such, the U.P.S.C. should conduct its eX3- .1 nterruptiol1s ) ll1inations in Indian languages as per the laws enacted hy the House. SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA rt 1" a matter of great regret that des- (South DeJ,hi): Mr. Speaker. Sir, it pite repeated U'iSUf1lnCeS given by is a very important matter. You t he Government. some officers in the pleaae issue directions to Government Ministry of H orne Affairs and in in this regard? U.P .s.C. are not implementing this decision. We. the Members of Parlia- SHRI KAl.J(A DAS (Karol Bagh): ment have been raising this matter Mr. Speaker. Sir. you have said that from time to time and assurance!\ the entire House is unanimous on thi~ have also been given by the Govern- issue, then what is the difficulty with ment in tbi'S regard. I would like to the Government in accepting the request yon to ensure that assurances Svlme, Please ask the Government to given by the Goveolment in this do ftO. (l'*!Tuptions) regard are implemented. Several of our youths are sitting on a hunger strike at the U.P.S.C. offic:-e since MR. SPEAKER = I have already 4J8kt that it j~ a very important issue. long without oaring for the cold and The Govemment should implement other difficulties. Nobody is prepar- what it bad agreed to do earlier. Not ed to listen to them. Mr. Spelker. only J. but the entire House is SOP- Sir, it is necessary to give them pr0- porting this move. tection. You may p'lease direct the Government to ·clarify .their stand in (lntm'uptItmr) tm. regard. At least,' action should 39 HoJdin~ of upse JANUARY 11, 1991 Indian Jangualle~ 40 ExanH. in all

(Sh. Harish Rawat] MR SPEAKER. Mr. Ranta- murthy, please take your seat. Your be taken in aC{;ordance with the Privilege Motion has not been admit- Constitution. This is what I demand. ted. The U.P.S.C. should also follow this decision. ( Interruptions) StiRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (H'ajipur): Mr. Speaker. Sir. the matter which has been raised bv Shri [TransltUion] Vijay Kumar Malhotra in the House .. (I nterruptioos) SHRI RAM VILAS P ASWAN . Mr. Speaker. Sir. the matter raised MR. SPEAKER: If you take by Shri Malhotra is very important. your seat. I will allow you one by J had been with you and you taught one. us the same thing and your predeces- ~ors have also given their ruling in (Interruptions' regard thereto. Moreover, the exa- MR. SPEAKER: No. first you minations are at hand and if im· take your seat. mediate action h not taken by the House. there will be no use of hold- (Ilzterruptiow) ing a di~cussion on it There are some people who oppose the use of English and there are others who do [EIl!?lish] not oppose. Rut I say. that let SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: Slr. English also continue to be a me- 1 have given a notice. dium. but at the same time examina- tions should also be conducted in MR. SPEAKER: When did you 1ndian languages. Everywhere. edu- give the notice? cation is im parted in respective mother tongues. By holding examina- SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: This tions in English. we are not only morning. imposing En~1ish on them, but also ~poj1ing their future. Government has no right to spoil their future. MR. SPEAKER: I have not re- It should not be like that. That is ceived it. You might have given it why it is a very important matter. after 10 A.M. Keeping in view the sentiments of the ( Interruptions) entire House. the Government should take prompt action. The Government MR. SPEAKER: You please take ~hould make a statement in the House your seat. in this regard.

SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: No Mr. Speaker. Sir, Shri Devi Lal is Sit. I have given a notice under Rule Dresent here. He has always been in 222. the cabinet and outside the cabinet. He has always opposed the use of English. Through you. T would MR. SPEAKER: You please take 1ike to request him that. at least, your sea!. I 11:1 ve not gone through he should get-up and say that your notIce. ex,aminations would be held in (InterruptiOns) al1 the Indian languages so that future of children living in viUages MR. SPEAKER: No, Mr. Rama- and far ftunp; areas ~ou1d be bright... murthy. ened. (IllierruptiOns) 4) Establishment of PAUSA 2), 1912 (SAKA) Vidarbha, Marath- 42 Stat. Dev. Boards/or wada and Konkan

12.17 m. filent in those regions should be clear- ed to facilitate further development. RE. ESTABLISHMENT OF STA- TUTORY DEVELOPMENT MR. SPEAKER: Please take BOARDS FOR VIDARBHA. your ~eat. Mr. Shiwankar. You are M,\RATHWADA AND KONKAN r~peating the same point. No, please IN MAHARASHTRA SIt down. (Interruptions)

(Translation] PROF. MAHADEO SmWAN- KA R: Mr. Speaker. Sir, another PROF. MAHADEO SHIW AN- pDint whkh 1 want to make is that K AR (Chimur): Mr. Speaker, Sir. South Eastern Railway has also done the previous Government had announ- great injustice to this region. (Inter- ced 1ast year on 15th August regard- ruptions} , ing Constitu1ion of St:ltutory De- velopment Boards for Vidarbha. Marathwada and Konkan regions of SARI BANW ARILAL PURO- HIT (Nagpur): ~fr. Speaker. 30 Mahar~shtra .. It was followed b} a Sir, resolution WhICh was adopted in the years ago in J961 when eight districts Maharashtra Legi~lature on the sub- were m.erged in Maharashtra. an ap- ject. Thereafter a meeting WJ.S al~('I prehensIOn was expressed by the lea- convened by the Central Government dCfl;j of Vidarhha that these districts under the Chairman~hjr of the Prime would not get justice. Shri G.8. Minister. but no follow up action has P,ant was the Union Home Minister heen taken sjnce then. There is a at that time. He ha<.1 assured the large hack log in Marathwad~. 1eaders that there was no cause of Vidarbha and Konkan. The back- aprrehension. The Constitution of long i~ especially larae in Vidarbha India wa, amended and article 37] (2) W3S inserted with the provision where it h lS crossecl the staggerin1! figure of 10 thou"and crores. ~ As ~l that thi", region would not be discri- minated in th~ matter of development. re~llJt of it. there i'\ a widespread re- sen!ment among the peorle of that Article 371 (2) gave three assurances: reg.Jon and they have resorted to agi- First. provi~ion guarantee on the ta11ons. ] demand that Statutory ~asilo) or poru.lation: ~econd, propor- Developl11ent Boards for Vidarbha. t10n:tle seat" 111 techmcal education Marathwada and Konkan regions a_nd ~hjrd. proportionne representa- should be constituted soon. Mr. tIon 111 Government jobs on the basis of population. But injustice is con- Speaker, Sir. I would like to knnw from the Government through you tinuously being done to the region for the last 30 years. Allocation of funds the policy of the Government in thIs to the region should be 24 per cent re~ard. pay before yesterday also I hut only 15-17 per cent is aUocated. ralSed thIS matter. but nothing h's Recently interviews were conducted been done till today. Annonncement for the posts Sub-Inspectors, but to this effect should be made in the _of only 7 candidates from Vidarbha House. were appointed out of a tot'3l of 170 appointments whereas the population MR. SPEAKER: You have made of the region is 23 per cent. Are the your point Mr. Shiwankar. PJease youth of that region not competent take your seat. even for the post of Sub-Inspectors? So far as technical education is con- PROF. MAHADEO SHIWAN- cerned. there are as many as '8 to 10 K AR : Sir, the Government is sti11 institutes in every district in Western 13dopting the poHcy of nepntism in M'lharashtra. whereas in the case of 'Mabarashtifa. Vidarbha and Konkan. Vidarbha region. their number is Jimi- This sh auld be stopped forthwith ted to one or two in each district. and the backlog relating to develop- This discrimination has been going 4-6 LSSINDI91 43 Eslahli.llIncnl {)l J NUARY I L 1991 idarbha, Marath- 44 Stal. De '. Boards fi}f' wot!lI and Konkan

[ h. Banwarilal Purohit] SH R I VA N" A TH "(\Var- on for the la t 30 ear. Pro\tisi n dha): n thi ' 'ubje t. I re'll1} WlS made in the (_ onslitution of Wt)ulcl )ike to ... .(In.fer,.uptionl~) ...... I nelia to remove this di. crimination. MR. P AKER: \Vhat i. thi ', Nhen Shri V. P. 'jlgh vas th Pr'me He i, sup: orting you. Mini ter~ he had ~iven the as~urancc (Interruption 5') that tller was :1 hindr'~nce 'in the . on. titution to \;on titute 1 velop- PR 'F. MADHU DAN! 'AT men t Board. for Vidarbha and Ma- (Raja pur : J said J am supporting rathwada and that (ue-line Prc- , i- yo,!. ,/!llerruption ) dentia 1 order would be en ugh for that. We are of 1he i w that nkan MR. P AKER: fIe is support- region t 0 js bac ward and for that in,; yo . also ,onstitution amendment 119 need .. SHRI VASA IT ATHE: L t ed. The Conqres Party and our me sa that on thi<; subjc '{, lhe mat- leader hri Rajiv A.lI1<.lhi is ·Olum it· k r L as liming very s riQtls pTOp r· ted to support th i. ckn1a I 1. Wh lion, The people of Vidarhha ha v,..:, he has said tha Vi will Sllrport it, all th 'e year'S heen v ry p ncefu1. there should he no hin Jrance in it. l /n terril pfl'onl .) But if that is n t pos. ihle right now. one-line Pr , identhll Order to con, ti· MR, PE KER: Mr. "'atht!. tute eveloplnent Bard for Vidarbha why i~ it not being implemented? a.nd Marathwada should his.. ued Pkase teJJ me, "len eVi.~r . ~ ody j" immediately, But the hief Minister interested, and when the Hou 'e i of Mahara htra. hri Sharad Pawar agreed~ why j, it not b in imple- who b long. to \~ . t rn Maharashtra mented. and has h-en d()jn~ in}u,:ti e to OUT SHRl VASA SA' HE: ba kwa rd arel S win 'no1' let it e win why; wall done. That i why I <111 raising thi.: tell you I do not to cteat is ue for~ the entr'" ,nvernment ul1plea antness. T would only ug- on beha If of th people f Vidarbha ges t .. and Marathwada. J would like the MR, PEAKER: Don~t Cl' ... 3t un- [)re ent Goven101 Ht a nd the Prim pleasantne s; let us see how it <':3n Minister to clurif their ..t ~lnd on this b implemented, is 'ne. I would Ii . thn. h n. Speak r t imp,.e ~~ upon the Prime Mini. ter HRI VASANT SATHE: I anl that the situation in Vidarbba and suggest iog it to you: Under Article Marathwada ha b n det riorating 37'1 ... (Interruptions) Do you want \lay h day. The I cnpl have t ken th is. u t be olved or do you t [u:dtati ns. 1 was d ,·tc ined for want to find out who is to blam ? four '" da s without an\, <:harqcs under T want the issue to be nlved, Sir, a. many a" 12 sect'inn". "'Btl t four I am su£!gesting that under Article days later wh 11 they sen. d the pu- 37 L the pr vis'on is for estahli, hing blic :entiment, they ad mitted that siatutor eve] pment Boards for the fals ca ewer .in: tituted as l.h re region of Vidarbha. Maratl1wada wn . no e jd nce. TIHl~. the r ar 1rv .. nnd the rest of Mahara htra. Vvr: in" to ru~h the agj '" tin' through do not mind jf a new r.nlendment is mi 11 e f power. ince today j the made. and Konknn j also in .h eJ. la.t day of th .~·~ inn 1 would f- Interruption) que

m ot win be brou Yht. and tht~ll w .01111l1JS ' lOn and un'lnim usly pa 'S 'd win have the bO~Hds~ then tbi ' will a bill to this df'd. But till today only d lay matter . 'huirnl a draft of the re:id~lltjal Ord r for S 1 uld b \ taken. Th hon. MinL'!er impl m nting th provisiuns of Arti- Ill)uld !!-i c Hn a ~llran . , in t hi cle 371 and e:tablish ing . t'l{ ut )ry I- I n us~ th > ~t he would lnak effort ' to t} t' De ] pll1e It Boar L:. 1 'l)\I\'. t th- intpkment lkdsjon within a fixt:d 10 " 1' 11111el t shDut I in n. li~ lly - th e ti m' f,; me . I ,, 'ould al 'o lik the h n. P "ak r t issu clirLctioJ) at his J'vd . I.;S ;O 1 il1 Ol! I .. r l Id a b . a Pr~ - !'Iclltiul rdt!f. 0stabJj')l \. (,:tulory in thi s r~gaf(1. D~vel pm 4nt 1 o~u 'J,) for Vi iarbha. ( /,,, errlll'/ ;0/1.\ ) l' (. thw la. atl 1 if the want ror tl r t of the rvlahara 'ht u' w' (hOLl! W(I it-· PROF. M H. 0 Hl\V N- tiog for the amendnlent. I am ut- t t- R : Mr. 'pe·tker. ir. there tering u n t of warning. if t hi ' j .. is tl widcspr a I l't:senim nt anl0ng not done by the G vernment. we will th p op]e r Vidalbha and Mar:! h- 1 at be r sp n ihle. You \ ill finj wada .... , . (/n/(: /I 'liP lion, )., . an agitati n in Vi arbhLl t kino pl u\.:e, or a epar'lte State. (Interruptions ) MR. SP K -O R: What can I Jl)'! h () th entire House will b...~ hl1l- 1 r r n 1 upport'ug the cau 'e f PR F. Mf H \ IWA . Vjdarbl a. t t ast f( r Stutut:)rv K R: The hon Mini t r i ' pre cf}{ evelopment Board, 1 would reque:t 'n th~ H U.'l', H 'h ult! repJy th Government to (.1 this imm('(r- it ...... Ullfetl'flpliol1s) . . , .. . ately. Interruptions M . R : Wh 10) U crllm~nt, ju~t [Trans/ath)ll] blam tl It j,' r/,),'s ible that th h n. Minist r tUfty r 'pI to tf l: S' P tnt . MR . P KER: Please take y ur ",\.,;at.

(/nten H[Jli n )

HRIMA I JAYAWANTI NAV- T-J A NDRA M H A Bon1 ba.y rth a·t): MI'. Speaker. Sir. 1hi ' is an imp rtant i 'uc n ' it (.; nc~rn .' {Trun 'Ia/ion] the dignity of Parliament. wh th r it i the qucsO n )f holding examina- RI 'l-I. R D (Bu· tjons in In lian I. 'ulguag s or ~~ .. daun): T\1r. P :lkl.!L ir. the i. su J pment of Vidarbha. Marathw," Ja that hl'i 'l'vl:.dhotl'Cl raj d a sh( rt and n un 1\.:gioJ '. l) f llow up whil a is a ry . en 1I~ ne. Y '- netl n i taken ~v n in . sp ct of th 'rda I , U young IDHn jump d fr m in. which are us.' d b this Hous' . the Tj ·jtor', Ganar), ill your pr- In su h a "ituation. it is natural t " 0 ' '. Our fri' d. Ini ' ifut11in hold th~ ) ~r l1lncnt r spon. ibJ' f r ('houdhury had g '1 i,\slI'd a p·t,'''! ina'tion. Th' pr' ious a)V rnm~nt f)r him. I 'Inl o:stre .. \;d to "t:~ hri constituted tht;; ational WnJn 'n nevi Dal ~ (,0] "' r action tn th i '."Ul: 47 Holding of UPSC JANUARY J J" 1991 Indian languages 48 Exams. ;11 all

[She Sharad Yadav] ~fR. SPEAKER: This question relates to Tamil. Telugu. Bengali. that has been rais~d by Shri V.K. Hindi and all other Indian languages. Malhotra. Shri Ram Vilas Paswan and Shri Ra wat. I do not know as (J 1l1Crf'llptioIlS) to why he is k\:~ping silent over this issue. Ht! used to be very \'ocal on [EIlf?lish] this issue but surprisingly, today he is keeping silent. This is a sl'rious SHRl VASANT SATHE (War- matter and we do not want to make dha): We agree and unanimously let it a matter of dispUk in the House, us pass a resolution in this House but I am really pained to sec the wa) tnrlay (1irccting thl! Government this matter is being deJayed. This is an jssuc with tht: sentiments of the (I nterruptiol1s) people urc link~d. The way the r Trans/a/ion] youths who have ~tu(iied lhnlugh In- dian languages as mediu1l1 are being 1\1R. SPEAKER: Mr. Sathe. you discriminated and sub.i~ct('d to in- c..:i.lll C '\ pn.~'.1i your views on the issue. justice. I hope the hon. Speaker wilJ I ~hall nn1 be able to do it. All that himself espouse this cause as it is J Clln -:a\, is that Govcrnn1ent shuld getting delayed unnecessarily ... (In- r.-'·pel.. t . lnd implement the unani- terruptions) ... ml)lI'i lk..:i"jon of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: r fcel more dis- , Eng/i,\11 J tressed than you because a rnatler which has the unanimous support of SHRI VASANT SATHE: 1 nl')V~ the House is not being imnlemented. that this House resolves that the Gov- cn1nlcnt ~houlct inlplement the de- (JIll e,.ru pI ions) ~jre of lhj~ House that all LJPSC ex- amjnatjons should be held in all the SHRI MADAN DAL KHURANA nationa 1 languages mentioned in the (South Delhi): When there is unani- F ighth Schedule to the Constitution. mity on this issue. I am of the opi- (/1l/f'rrllplioJls) I have moved it. You nion that a uni.lminous resolution ~upp{lrt it. Nobody opposc~ it. should be passed ... (Interruptions) ... that all U .P.S.C'. and other examina- (Jllterruptions) tions would be held in aJI Indian lan- l TrailS! ati(} 11] guages besides English. Let a re- solution to this effect be adpoted. MR. SPEAKER: I know that all (I nl'errupt ion~\') hon. Mcrnhers are unanimous on this i~~ue. PROF: RASA SINGH RAWAT (Ajmcr): This is a just demand and (Illterrll pt iOlls) it should be accepted. (Lnterrup- t;011.\') MR. SPEAKER: You take your ~C'It. Now the Deputy Prime Minis- MR. SPEAKER: What I am say· ter, Shri Devi Lal win speak. ing is that Shri Vijay Kumar Ma]- (Interruptions) hotra had raised this issue six month back. but still it has not been im- MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. plemented. Shri Devi Lal is on his legs. (Interruptions) '1 E DEPUT'Y PRIME MINISl ER SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: AND MINISTER OF AGRTCUL- I propose th~t a resolution to this TlJ~E AND MINISTER OF TOU- effect should be passed in the House. RISM (SHRI DEVI LAL): Mr. (/nlerruptlons) Speaker Sir, I have been raising this 49 llo/ding 0/ UPSC PAUSA 21. 1912 (SAKA) Indiull language,\ 50 Ex ams. ill all

matter not only in the Legislative MR. SPEAKER: I took the ~ense Assemhly but also in the Cabinet at of the House. The HOllse \\as agi- least to speak in the language of those tated over it. It can be done. whom you represent or want to cham- pion their cause. Shri Sathe never speaks in any other language but (Illterruptions) English ...... (Interrupfio1jS) [Tran.sJalit)n] SHRI VASANT SATHE: You have never heard me speaking in PI{OF. VIlA Y KUMAR MAL- Hindi. I can speak Hindi better than H()TRA: Did you ask for the sense you ... (lnterrllptioll's) of the House regarding thi5 Resolution. (InterruptiOns) MR. SPEAKER: Devil Lal.ii. "peaks only in Hindustani and not in Hindi. MR. SPEAKER: I wa~ ~aying about rcconlmcndations (Interruption,') ) (Interrupt ;()Jl.\) SHRI DEVI LAL: When Shri Sa- the supports it in Hindi I think the PROF. VIJAY KUMAR ]\1AL- Government shouJd have no objec- H()TRA: Then it should be p:I~~ed. tion to it. I assure you on b~half of the Govenunent that it ",ouIe) he im- (J OIl / IUl)1 j(,)/J..\) plemented .. .(Interruptiom)

SHRI SHARAD Y ADAV: Pass the Reso1ution now .... .(lnterruptions) ... SHRI C. K. KlJPPUSW At\1Y (Coimbatore): lan 1 ~pcak in Tc.lJuil'.' MR. SPEAKER: ls it over n... )w'? ...... (/nl erru[J tio Il~) (Interruptions) NjR. SPEAKER: Okay. you can MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ~peak in Tamil. un:ll1imous on passing the Resolution moved by Shri Sathe .. (Interrup- (J 1l1t"TU1)/ioll~) tions) ...... [1 ranfihlilion] rEnglish] SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: SEVERAL HOl\'. :\IEMBERS: Mr. Speaker. Sir. I am on a point of Yes. order ...... (In.terruptions) Just now the Depu~y Prime Minister as~ured that MR. SPEAKER: The Resolution it would be implemented. I would on the rccomnlcndatioll of Satish like to say as to why it ('do't be im- Chandra Cc}mmittee moved bv Sbrj plemented in the \"oming eXJrnina- Sathe has been passed unani n;ously. tions. Assurance has heen given that it "ould he implemented in the nC\1 (Interruption., ) exanlination held by U.P.S.C...... (I nlerrllptiolJoS) SHRI K. P. UNNIKRISl-INAN (Badagara): Mr. Speaker. Sjr, I aJD on a point of order. Is it a prece- SHRI DEVI LAL: Ml. Speaker dent? Would you allow on the spot Sir, 1 would like to apPeal that let such a Resolution to be lnoved and us a11 s'p

[English] {English1

DR. THAMBJ DURAl (Karur): MR. SPEAKER: Many hOIl. Mem- \\le will speak only in Tamil ...... bers of this House sPtak in English. (Interruptions) Hindi and other lJnguages. J think ~1r. Devi Lal was not of the opinion SHRI M. R. KADAMBUR that those hOIl. Members of this JANARDHANAN (Tirunelveli): You f Jouse who speak in EngHsll would are playing with the feelings of th~ be prevented from !-.peakin~ in Eng1ish Tamilians ...... (ln1terruptions) Do you in this House. want to divide Indb'? ... .. (Interrup- (lllltel'ruptioll.)") tiuns) Language is our birthright ...... i Interruptions) PROf. N. G. RA1\;GA (liuutur): You cannot pa~s a resolution in this manner. There lla~ to be a p! opcr MR. SPEAKER: 1 am on my leg"'. 11Oti~\o~ alt..f prt)j1C!r dhcw, .... iOll. We Please take your s~ats. hav~ bcell keeping quiet lor a long I imt-:. This b not the w! \' 10 do it. .. (J fllerruplivIlj) (I n!ler"lfl'tlon~) .

MR. SPEAKER: 1 am on my leg3. l\.1R. SPEAKER: I anl going to say \Vill you please allow me to speak ~l);nel h i ng. I agree \\ ith you. {Inf(~rruptions)

rTran,.\/ationll ~HRf BARISH R;\\\"AT (.L\lmo- ra): ~o far as making the Illdian lan- SHRI DEVI LAl : I he Ilon. Meln- guagt.~!\. medium (If ln~ L: PSC eXdlui- bel' from Tamil f".u..iu would bear nations. there are 110 two opinions in with me. I have not spoken in tavour i he H(.)u~e. l\1y fioinl of 0: eLr jlo, that of l-lindi. I would like to rClnind him ~UCll a uelicatc i'SlIC ~houtu not h~cn (fnte,.ruptio~) that I learnt to sign dCJIt in su~h a manner. Ri!!ht lim..: in Hindi in the Multan jail. By say- and means should have bee"'n found ing that we should ~pe.lk jn Hindu')- out. Mr. Spe~lker Sir, J r~spcd the tani T meant the Jndian languages sentiments of Sathe.ii but I think thi~ whether it is Tamil, Telugu or an} was not the! time to move thi:; Re!"olu- other Indian language. lion.

[English1 (English] SHRI KADAMBUR M. R. JANAR- SHRI SAJFUDOC;\l CHOUDHU .. DHANAN: You give thil) trans- R Y (Kalwa): I :.tIn al\o on a point of lation into Tamil. We want T:Jmil order. trans'ation. What is this? You arc pJaying with fire ...... {Interruptions) ~v1R. SPEAKER: After I dhpose of his point of order 1 will call you. MR. SPEAKER: Plea~e t.ikc your spa ts. [ '[',.all~1lation.]

(I nlerruptiolls) SHRI HARISH RA \VAT: KindJy listen to my point of order. Sir. this [ Translation] Resolution should <:om~ in the ~')roper fonnat and I woald Hke to submit if SHRI DEVI LAL: 1 would like the House is unanimous vou 0:111 to clarifY that H indu"tani language direct the Government to· bring such means all langu~~t"s, whether it is . ~I resolution which would enable the Tan1il. l'c1ugu 4)f ]lun.iabi. students to take UPSC exatnil1ations 53 Iiolding oj UPSC PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Indian languogc.'\ 54 Exams. in aI/

1ft all Jndian language.:;. The (jnvt:rn·· The other point i~ that l never ment should be bound to bring for- understood that these voluntccl s are ward such a Reso)uti, 'n. But before raging a fanatic kind of demand to binding the GovemJnent on this issue put one language agajn~t the ('ther. \\ c should disl.!uss in detail all the They are demanding equal opportuni. aspect" of the Resolution. (lnterrup· ties for all the languages. not to create 'Inns) a l,uht bt.!lwL'en this lanquagt" tlnd the o!h~r Ltnguage. [f they "wct:'e demand- Engl i"Il] ing for only one language. we would n~~t ha\ e given them any support. MR. SPEAKER: What is your point They

[Sb~ .Devi Lal] weB in advance so that the fvlentbers do not want to thrust Hindi on any- are prepared, amendments are moved body. I have clarified that (uo not and then it is discussed on merits. even know Hindi. This is a subject which is most im· portant beca use language should be fEnclish1 sought to be used for the unity of this country. I wish that aU the Members PROF. N. O. RANGA: What should know that language should not .lbota English then? be used to divide this country on the basis of language. Every language is [Tra1i~lat;onJ dear to the heart of the person con· SHR I DEVI LAL: The same IS cemed. his mother.tongue is dear to true a bout English also. his heart. and that is why the States. have been formed on the linguistic [Tral;slation] basis in this country. After that. lan- guage has become a very sensitive SHR I DEVI LAL: Please listen to issue. I don't want that this House me first. English is in use for centuries. should touch this sensitive cord of It is an international language. It is unity in this House as it will endanger very difficult to pun on without Eng- the unity and integrity of this country. lish. That is why I include English (lnterrU'ptions) and Urdu in Indian languages. (J 12 fer- rup t ions) SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: I am on a point ~f order. MR. SPEAKER: How ~hould I disa110w Shri Shankaranand. AN HON. MEMBER: How can you raise a point of order on a point (l ntel'rllptiol1.5) l',f ordor? [English] SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: SHRI B. SHANKARANAND I am raising a very simple point of (Chikkodi): Mr. Speaker. I very rarely order. As I said, under Rules 332 stand up to speak here. Today I am and 333--my point of order was greately shocked to hear. raised based on the Rules of Proce· ,Jure. J was surprised try see that a (Infl",.rupt;ons) r~olution was pHt by the Chair with· [TranslQ/ion] out even reading the Re'wlution to the House. we did not know what is MR. SPEAKER: Yadavji please sit ~aid in it. and the Chair rushed to say down. Shankaranandji i~ Spt!3 king. that the Resolution i" nac:c;ed unnni- You should listen to others also. mously even without pufting it before this House. This should not hnppen. (Interrupt iOtJ5 ) (InterruptIOns) [English) : TrQ"sltJtion] SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: A resolution which was not briore the MR. SPEAKER: I have taken the House. a resolution which was not sease' of the House. circulated and which was not moved (lnterrul'ti~) 3nd discus~.: J. is said to have been pas.ed unanimous1y. Under RUtles 332. SH~I DEVI LAL: I had said that 333 ant) 334 of the Rules of Proce· .... (lnterrupti~ dllre. a fonnal resolution should have 'been moved by any M-em be r, ne is [Engli~'h] entitled to move a resolution in this HO'Dse. and·unoer these rules a reso- SHRI B. ,SHANKARANAND: lution bas' to ~ moved aDd dtculated f Liko many Members. I have been in S1 Holding of upse PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Indian languages S8 Exams. in all this House 'for the last 23 years. be divided by language d~lerenCOl; (I nterr6l(ltwns). I am surprised at We are all brothers and sis_. of: the 'way of putting the Resolution in Mother India. su:h a hurry and I saw, the Deputy Minister chose to speak on this very Today, Mr. Speaker, Sir. tile unUY' important subject without discussing it and integrity of India is in peril be- in the Cabinet at all. I take objection cause of the aofivities of certain ele- to this, Sir. ments in Tamil Nadu. By raking up this issue, you are only· giving occa- SHRI K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN: sion for revival of the demand for There is po Resolution. let us be separate Dravida Nadu in Tamil deaF. '(1 nferrUPl ions) Nadu. In this new year~ let 'IS re- solve to strengthen the Unity and in- tegrity of India. SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: This is not the way. The Government \Ve are all patriotic people. We shDuld take note of this. They can- want to be in India. We ·want one not further try to encourage the forces united India. Therefore" by .rakina which are :meant to destabilise this up this language issue. do. not push country. Let not anything he done us out of India~ Do not offend OUl' J caution the Government. I caution sentiments by such parochial stat~.. the House. Please. for God's sake. ments. Assure us English will COB- do not do anything in a hurry so tinue and Tamil will be acco(ded an that the country gets into problems. equal status to Hindi. This is nly point of order. [English1 rTranslafion] MR. SPEAKER: I have said that there is no language problem. SHRI DEVI LAL: Mr. Speaker, Sir. this a very sensitive issue. It was (Interruptions) my personal opinion and not the Go- vernment's view. I think that the MR. SPEAKER: The Houge has hon. Member's approach in saying only reaffirmed the resolution passed that the Resolution has been moved earlier. We are all agreed that all without notice. is not proper. I re- the Indian languages should be en- quest him to reconsider it. couraged. There is no question of imposition of any language. *SHRI C. K. KUPPUSW AMY: Ron. Speaker, Sir. Language problem (Interruptions) is not an ordinary problem. It is a very serious one. I WOll ld like to SHRI PAUL R. MANTOSH (NO: caution this Government that jf this minated Anglo-Indian): Sir, the Do- matter is taken very lightly. India puty Prime Minister should be con- will be disintegrated. I say this be- gratulated for having said that ED.I~ CatlSC so far Nehru's assurance that lish is also an Indian language and Hindi will not be imposed on the will be used offici al1 y. non-Hindi people has held India to- (Interruptions) ~tber. Today. the Hon. Oy. Prime Minister Devi Lal has ignited the issue aaain by asking us to speak in (TlVR1s1ation) Hindi and not in English. This atti- tude of the Government will definitel.y SHRI K. C. TVAGI (Ilaput); Mr. lead to disintegration of India and Speaker. Sir. I want to dr_Lt'r will instead strqthen separatist and attention towards an importaij L ' iisiparoul teRdendes. Mother India On the last 15 August whUe - should be ono. Mqthor India cannot iRs ~is sp"ch from t~, R ,'rt *Translatirn of the epeech originally de11vered in Tamll. 5-6 LSS/ND/91 59 JANUARY 11, 1991

tlte \'I11ten Prime Minister, Shri Vish.. the Calcutta office? It has been de- .".".. .ratap Singh had declared monstrated by oth ~r companies like MobatDmad Sahib's birtb-day as a India Steam Ship Company that Cal- Gazetted holiday. That announcement cutta port can be ..utilised as a major ha4 been greeted unanimously by all earning centre if th'!.re is proper plan- in the country. Sir. I have a copy of ning on the part of the management. the New year calendar published by This loss can also be curtailed by the Government wherein, the present cutting down on f 4 dministrativc ex- Government has converted the Gar:et- penses and also bv running a few ted holiday on the occasion of Moha- ships that the C0J11pany has instead mmad Sahib's birth-day into a Res- of letting them idJ~. In that case. trieted one. I would like to ask hon. why are the man:'gement talking of Chaudharv Sabeb who claims himself closing down the Calcutta office to be a Prime Minister of tbe rural which will cause unto1d misery to 150 folk whether the new Govemn1ent has and odd employee') world ng there? cban~ed the previous government's Why are they tryiqg to deprive Cal- decision in this regard? If it is not cutta port of the ',"ork that could be so~ I want a discussion to be held in done there? This Government has this House on this matter whether the undertaking Stt am Ship Company tbe declaration of the Gazetted holi- there. I would u~'ge upon the Gov- day on account of Mohammad Sahib's ernment to investif'1te into the causes birtb-day was proper or not? This is of losses. to invest" g;ate how the com .. an important question before us. Sir. pany can be prope 'ly run and to stop I request you to direct the Govern- this arbitrary decicion to c10se down ment either to revise the calendar or the office of the St( qm Ship Company. to declare that Sbri Vishwanath {lnt~rruptiolls) Pratap Singb govemmenes decision WIs wrong. (InterruptiOns) MR. Speaker: T do not know VI hy you are standing. Shri Madan Lal MR. SPEAKER: Khuranaji. you Khurana. please sit down, I shall call you later. t will give you a chance as you are a member of this august House. [Tronslatinn) (Interruptions) SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA [English] (South Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, today is the last day of this session of this SHR.IMATI MALTNT BHATIA- Jiollc.;e. T have b,"en drawing atten· CHARYA (Jadavpur): Mr. Speaker. tion continuously towards the demo- Sir. through you T want to bring to cratic rights of the 80·90 lakh citizens the notice of the Government a mat- of Delhi~ which hs() been in abeyance ter of very grave public c()ncern. i.e. for the last one and quarter vear as the threatened closure of the- Ca1cutta there is neither any Metropo1itan office of the Scindia Steam NaviJ.!a .. Council nor any Corporation in Delhi. tion Company. In a report to the The Congress Government as well as Labout Commissioner of the West the previous Government had pro- Bengal Government the nlana~cment mised to give statrhood to Delhi but has expres~ed its totally arbitrary in- hoth of them betrayed the Delhiites. tention and their excuSt" on this score As a resu1t. the people of Delhi have is. dl~t a hu~e loss is being incurred been facing nUlnerous nroblems for '" the Company. the last t 4 montbc;. This is not a question of cominr to power. Their It·_tHn. nroblems are incrrasing day by day. T am giving two examples of it. D.O. M. ' SIr, can they make A. Constructed 35 thousand houses up~ ttietr losses by closing down in 19~. (Interruptions) 61 PAUSA 2t 1912 (SAKA) 62

[English] SHRI KADAMBUR M. R. JAN- ARDHANAN (TiruneiveH): Mr. _. MR. SPEAKER: Manoranjan aker, Sir. I have submitted ..•.•• Babu, you are a votary of Nctaji. alf- You should have more patience. terruptions) 1 am submittiBg aboat the report on the conduct and discipliae [ Translation] of the President of the Indian Olym- pic Association. (Interruptions) SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. Speaker. Sir, you will be surpri. [Tralls1atlo/~] sed to know the gravity of the hous.. ing problem in Delhi. The D.D.A., SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Baah): ~ince its inception, has been construct- l'he previous government also did BOt ing 35 thousand h,)uses only per year ho ld elections so the preseRt govern- against the requir :ment of a8~ut 80 nlent ~hould at least give an assu- thousand per year. But during the rance for doing that. (lntt!"uptions) last year. 1900 hODses only have been allotted to the pcopie. Every year the population of Delhi increases by MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. 4 lakh as the pt. )ple from different 1 shaH listen to all of you. parts of the country come to Ddhl. The Consultative <::onlmitt~e also ~~ .. lS admitted this fact. (Interruptions) The D.T.C.. of which ollr Finance Minister once ha!lpencd to be the llingJ I ..J, j chairman. had 55)0 buses two vears ago and the proj{ ~tion at th~ cl1d of DR. TI-lAMBI DURAl (Kamr): H the 7th plan was 8000 huses. But they are not allowing our Members today, the fleet () D.T.C. has come t ( , speak, we will also do the same. down to 5000 fn 111 5500. (Intel I ul'tions)

MR. SPEAKEI~: Plca~c conclude. ~' MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kadambur Sl-IRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: iYl. R. Janardhanan will I)peak. 1 alll concluding lOW. 90 lakh Delhi- ites have been del'rived of their rights. I demand that 1 the Government SHRI KADAMBUR M. R. JAN· does not want to give 'itatehood to ARDHANAN: I am submitting about Delhi or does ll<}t want to take a the report on the conduct and diSCI- decision in this ·egard. at least it pline of the President of the Indian should revive the Metrop()1itan C<,un- Olympic Association. On 3·1·1991. cil and the Corroration which have the Madras High Court have siven been superseded, with a view to a verdict that Shri Shukla. the Presi- restore the democratic rights of the dent of the Olympic Association. people. Elections should be held for shot11d step down. . T~e post of ~~ these bodies. Chairman is a declphned and dl8ru- ned post for the youngsters to follow. (Interruptions) The hon. Minister Shri V. C. Shukla is not obeying the verdict of the High PROF. VIJAY KUMAR MAL· Court. Therefore, I plead .~t to HOTRA (Delhi Sadar): Elections are maintain the dignity and dUClpJine not going to be held in Punjab. the post of President of Olympic Ju. There ...... (1 nlerrupJions) sociation, Shri V. C. Shukla should [English] stet' down and the High C~urt ~ .. diet should be implemented ltntDed.· MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kadambur tely for the welfare of tbe AssocIa· M. R. lanardhanan. tion. (Interruptiorv) 63 JANUARY 11, 1991

SURl DHANUSKODI R. ATHI- [Translation] 'IHAN (Tirucbendur): In view of the judgment of tlac High COli rt of Mad· MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I know it. ras full bench dated 3-] ·1991. direct· Please sit down. that SIlri V. C. Shukla should tile ( Il1t errupt ions) keep away from the Indian Olympic Association, J urg~ upon the Central Government that it should withdraw MR. SPl:.AKER: Your notice mi- the temporary recognition given to ght not have been received in time V. C. Shukla as the president of the In the morning otherwise I would lOA. He is a responsible Member have certainly allowed you. of .the Council of Ministers. He sho- uld step down in honour of the ver- PROF. VIJA Y KUMAR MAL- dict of the court. HOTRA: Mr. Speaker. Sir, I agree with hill) that the court's order should SHRI ~ADAMBUR M. R. JAN- be obeyed. Undoubtedly the Madras ARDHANAN: As a fcsponsible High Court has passed the order but Member of the Council of ~linisters. at the same time the Madhya Pra- "he should respect the court verdict de&h High Court in an order has per- and should step down inlmediately. I mitted Shukla Saheb to continue. Now request the Government to advise there are two different orders of two Shri Shukla to obey the court order High Courts in contradiction with and also J urge upon the Gover(lment each other. Naturally. there is no to take necessary steps to re-recognise other option than to refer this case to Shri Adityan as the President of lOA. the Supreme Court or ~Olne other such institution, when one I-ligb Court SHRI C. K. KUPPUSW AMY pe 'mits him to continue in office and ,(Coimbatore): Shri Adityal1 was the the other High Court verdict is con- President of the ] ndian Olympic As- trary. to it. So the governtnent should sociation and presently Shri V. C. ref er this issue for further decision to Shukla. the Minister of External the Supreme Court or to any other Affairs has been recognised as the such body. (Interruptions) President of the Indian Olympic As- sociation. Shri Shukla is acting aga· It l11ay be decide outside the court inst the court verdict and it is a mis- also. take. Contempt proceedings were filed against Shri Shukla in the Mad- [Engli.~h] ras High Court. The Central Minis- DR. THAMBI DURAl: Let the ter is defying the court's verdict. 1 Govt. take note of what has been urp upon the Government to with- said by all the Members. draw the temporary recognition given by the Government to Shri Shukla a~ [T rarns/ation] the President of the Indian 01)-' mpic Association. MR. SPEAKER: Shri Ram Kri- SHRI C. SRINIVASAN (Dindi· shan Yadav. gull: Sir, I demand the same thing (Interruptions) which Shri Kuppuswamy has just now 'wanted. The V.P. Singh·s Govt. ap- Sl-IRI PRAKASH KOKO BRA· 'pointed Sltri V.C. Shukla as the tem- HMBHAIT (Baroda): Mr. Speaker, Sir~ why are the gas connections not I parary Chairman of Indian Olympic Association. Shri Shukla is acting as being given to the villagers? Chainnan against the Court verdict. This is an important issue. 1 would MR. SPEAKER: Prakash Koko . reque$t the Government to withdraw Birahmbhatt ji. I have not permitted the temporary appointment of Sbri you to speak. It is right that your . Shukla and obey t1ie order of the voice is bold. Sit down please• Madras High Court. (Imenur-ions) 65 PAUSA 21" 1912 (SAKA)

MR. SPEAKER: I shall call only MR. SPEAKER: Please take your those who have given me in writing. seat. SHRI PRAKASH KOKO BRA- SHRI RAM KRISHAN YADAV: HMBHATT: Mr. Speaker. Sir, 1 fhey are threatening to kill those want to know as to why the villagers offICers, as also their families. who cannot get gas connections? ,,·'hat is had ordered'the police-tiring in Ayo- tbe reason behind it? (Interruptions) dhya. They also 'say that those who do not co-operate in the construction MR. SPEAKER: What is this? of the temple, will have to face seri- other Why are you talking to each ous consequences .. .(/nterruptions) .•. in thist way? I have not permitted you. Take your scat. Shri Ram Krishan Yadav. MR. SPEAKER; Yadavji. please ')it down. SHRI RAM KRISHAN Y ADA V (Azamgarh): Mr. Speaker, Sir. 1 want SHRl RAM KRISHAN Y ADAV: to draw your attention as well as the Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav too is attention of the House towards a very being threatened by them .. .(lnterrUJp- serious issue. We discuss daily in the tion~) ... The way the extremist orga- House the growing influence of the nisations are cropping up all over the extremist clements in Punjab, Kash- country ~ is a matter of s\!rious con- mir, Assam or Tamil Nadu and that cern to all of us. Sir, it is my requ- their activities are endangering the est through you that no political party country's unity and integrity: I want should indulge extremism .. .(/nterrup- to add further that the communal tions) ..... ~ forces have created more confusion and chaos in Uttar Pradesh. The com- MR. SPEAKER: Yadavji~. now munal and the religious forces are you please sit down. Shri Mitra Sen setting up extremist organisations Yadav. there. 1 have to say regretfully that a political party is mainly responsible for all such happenings in that state. SHRI RAM KRISHAN YADAV: It j~ a matter of shame that a political (Faizabad): Mr. Speaker, Sir, ·in our party is involved in such activities country, the Government has been pass- and that party is Bbartiya Janata ing through the financial crisis on one Party. (Interruptions) The extremist hand and the financial irregularities are organisations are being brought up taking place frequently in the various in all over the country by the Boar- institutions in the country on the other. tiya Janata Party. I want to say There is one suclt institution, the that they .. .(Interruln;om) ... New Bank of India which is a lead- ing Bank under the Reserve Bank. MR. SPEAKER: Without my per- According to the reports of the C.B.I. mission. you cannot speak. Resume and the Reserve Bank of Iudia, the your seat please. officers of that Bank have been found gUilty of committing financial irregu- ...(/I1lIerrupt;ons) ... larities involving not laths but crorel of rupees. They sanctioned loans to MR. SPEAKER: What are you Shri J.K . .lain who was involved in speaking? 1 have not given you per- vegetatble-ghee scandal worth Rs. 10 mission. Please take your seat. crores and was also charged of mix- ing cow's tallow in Ghee. They have SHRI RAM KRISHAN Y ADAV: been found guilty of committin, 1 am telling you the truth. Those fraud in waiving of loans and. giving com.munal forces are posing a threat crores of rupees to the Rathi. Udyog. to the unity and integrity of the COWl.. It is also alleged that they are invol· "try. Their COJDDlunal orpnisations ved in various other scandala also. are sprouting as extremist group8~ Above an the answer in resPonse to 67 JANUARY 11, 1991 68 it question in this House had also newspapers have been literally re- bffirmcd that these officers were in- porting vallOUS dis~ussi()ns that had volved in numerous iinancial and ad- laK~n pJa~e 111 ~alnerJ in your Cham- nlinistrativc irregularities and the ber as well at) aJmo~t predicting and former Finance Mittistcr, Shri Madhu gIving, 110t astrologH;ul. but enough Dandavate Jeft the entire ,case at that predIdiol1s 01 whJt is going to hap- ~tage to be proceeded further by the pen in this Ihluse. Today in 'l'he officials. The 59 Memb~r~ of Pdrlia· II illdu~ult~ Times' we find, there is a ment have written to the hon. Minis· detailed report about allegedly SOIne tcr of Finance calling for the rcsig .. orders you are gOIng to give today nation of this particular officer. 1 have regarding the Janata DJI (S) MPs, ~'.)mc to know that despIte all these theIl' status. rCl'ognitlon etc. It is a tkings the very same person is going serious matter. If newspapers ale to be appojllt~d as the Chairman of gOIng to continuously give reports ot that Bank. Why is it so? The Gov· llll~ ty pc, then it is time tnat we ernment should clarify it. 1 hat JnaH st.Ht iludmg out where news is COln~ has been found guilty of committing BIg from. In fact, there IS one news- linancial as well as admjnistrative Pd per whkh said that I was suppo- irregularities. He transferred one M.':lt 10 be putting nly ears to the thousand employees and su~pended doors. tH.:aring It and spreading it 100 employees. The cause of suspen- etc. it is unfortunate. 1 think. it sion is that some branches of the is necessary that this matter be gone Bank disbursed loans ill such areas on into. 1 understand my friend Shri hi:, rcconlmcndation as did not fall Raluamurthy is goin~ to ~ay about under the jurisdiction of the bran- it. (Interruptions) ches. When an inquiry was conduct- ed, he suspended the Branch Mana- gers while there was no fault of the MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ramamur- Managers. Thu~ a p~rson respon~i~le thy, 1 will be permitting you. a for comnlitting financIal and admlnls (/nterrlll't~ns) trative irregularities should not be ap- pointed as Chairman of that Bank In the interest of the Bank as well as SHRI P. R. KUMARAMAN- the country ...{lnterruptions).., , GALAM: Coming back to the sub- ject for which I had ghen notice, [English] the States of Maharashtra and Andhra have tOday been literally starved of SHRI P. R. KUMARAMAN- diesel and petrol. Not only that. GALAM (Salem): Mr. Speaker. Even edible oj] is not available. Es- Sir, in the last few days. we have sential commodities which are allot- been seeing a lot of news items about ted to the States are not L! (ling to the proceedings of our House about these States. disqualifiaaltion, defeQtion~ going to court, coming back from court etc. (I nterrup/ions) News has been cominJ! out even a bout matters ... [Translation1 I [TramlatiollJ MR. SPEAKER: Please include 11R. SPEAKER: Kumaraman- his State, Oujarat, also. ,galam Saheb, why are you devia- ting? I have permitted you to speak [En.r:lish] about Diesel only. [EngUsh] SHRI P. R. KUMARAMAN- GALAM: Oujarat also. And SHRI P. R. KUMAR.A MAN.. certain States are getting 20 per cent GALAM: The fact is that the a nd sometimes 30 pet cent more. 69 PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) 70

This year. in fnct. T am Hware that has been given the heading uSpeaker the largest State in India has got 20 did not act within bounds of law". per cent more in their allocation I for It is an interview to their correspon- diesel etc. dent Seema Mustafa. I would only quote a very small relevant portion MR. SPEAKER: Which Statc,\1) which is of vital importance. Apart from the privilege that is involved. SHRI P. R. KUMARAMAN- for which I have given separate GALAM: The State of Uttar Pra- notice, it is a grave matter of im- desh. I do not know why. The portance and since this is the last Minister of Parliamentary Affa i r~ day. I am raising it. and the Minister of Petroleum and Chemicals is conveniently ah~ent at "Mr. Asoke Sen, a Law Minister the moment. in Mr. Rajiv Gandhi's Government. said that if the Speaker acted con- (Infen-uPfions) trary to 1aw, the bar of jurisdic- tion cannot be applied to him. It SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Al. can apply only when the Speaker Il"ora): The Deputy Mi'1i'ite'T' j~ acts withitr the jurisdiction or in here. accordance with the law, he insis- ted. In the present case, he said. SHRI P. R. KllMARAMA1\T- the Speaker Mr. Rabi Ray had not GALAM: The Deputy Minister is acted in confomlity with the law here. I would like to know w~v and the provisions of the Const itu· this discrimination is beini! dOlle. tion." People of Maharashtra. Andhra ant! Gniarat are nlso citj7~n~ of Tndh This is a matter of grave importance. It is not only UP which fans. in After the Prime Minister's assurance India. we are also citizens of Ind;~ and his brief comments, the House and we should be given oil. Tf this was relieved !ind thought that the is _going to go on ... (Interruptions) ... Government was sensihle enoutzh, It is an important l)L\int. Wherp. after what has happenerl during the Con1!res't Governments are 1hrre. H' whole of last week. Now here comes these States are going to t c djsc6- another bomb-shell from another min[lted in term~ of givinp (',\,en,hl p'entleman. a minic;ter, and I don't supplies, we will have to tak~ a verv know whether there is any sense of stronp: stand. It cannot be let off joint responsibility. It is upto the so lightly. Prjm~ Minister. I would urge upon vou and request the Prime Minister Mr. Speaker. through you I would or the Minister concerned to come like to inform the (tovernmcnt that up and explain. We cannot allow if they do not give the essential SUf\'- things to go on like this. It is after plies of diesel and other products to we thought everything has been clos- the ~tate(~ of T\rf:llJar'lshtra and An- ed and after the unconditional apo- dhra Pradesh. the Congress Parfv logy-by a government which apo)o .. will hn ve to hke a very "trong stan,l gises every alternate day -by the tlnd it may mean a n1.110r COllfrn"ta~ Law Minister that this has happen- tion. (/nlt!rruPti'on.~) ed. (\HRT K. P. {TNNIKRT~HNA"'I SHRT TNDRAJTT GIJPTA (Mid- (Bada2ara): I wish to invite your napore): This is a slanderous state- attention Rnd also ()f the Honcze to q ment against you. matter of grave importance. Tn thi~ morning's Economic Time~. in th~ SHRT K. P. IJNNJKRISHNAN: ;,.ont Pa~e. there jt; an interview This is not onJy slanderous and a ~iven by Mr. Asoke Kumar Sen. grave contempt of the House for Minister for Steel and Mines which which of course ether proceedings 71 JANUARY 11, 1991 72

wiU follow t this is a matter of very Therefore I would urge upon you serious concern that a Minister, that to direct the Prime Minister or the too the senior most Minister in this Min ister concerned to come up bef()fe Cabinet, should have had done this the House before the House adjourns with impunity. W DU 1<1 you allow today and explain. this to continue? This is the ques- tion. Is this the view of this Govem- SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: This ment'? is a very serious matter Sir. ([nlerruptions) MR. SPEAKER~ Have you given the notice, Mr. Unnikrishnan? SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY (Kri- shnagiri): Mr. Speaker, Sir, today SHRI K. P. tTNNIKRISHNAN: marnin~, the Leader of the Opposi- Yes Sir. tion. Shri L. K. Advani had raised a very vital point. He said that to- MR. SPEAKER: It has not day happens to be the last day of reachod me. this Session, requested that you have to .give your judgment over the mat- SHRI K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN. ter which is hanging on, about the He cannot escape by suying that this disqualification or recognition or is his personal view. whatever you nlay cell it. of the hon. Members. Sir, the ent1r~ MR. SPEAKER: My point is tha t House is concerned about that. While you should give a notice. it is so, today 'The Hindustan TimeS' predicted and pubHshed exactly what SHRI K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN: you are going 10 give as judgment. T have written to you. I do not know how vour Cham her is being misused by the Press. MR. SPEAKER: You have glven me in writing that YOIJ want to reuse SHRI K. P. UNNIKRtSHNAN: an issue and I have given my per- How can you prevent them from mission. writing? SHRT K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN: (lnrerrll'ptlons) 1 am not talking about the privilege matter. Since this is the last day. SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: 1 raised the issue. - has quoted the hone Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Have you given (Interruptions) the notice'! MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ramamur- thy. you know that is under m~ SHRI K. P. lJNN1KRISHNAN: it I have written to you alreadY. active consideration. I will ta1ce my own time. I do not know what I am going to ;ay. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. you have written to me for rabing this issue (lnterruptlons) and I have allowed it. But vou cannot raise the privilege issue ",:ith- SI-IRI K. RAMAMURTHY: Sir, out notice. already. a motion of privilege against this Paper is pending. SHRI K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN: I am not referring to the privilege MR. SPEAKER: I d~ not know. issue at aU. Thllt is entirely diffe- SHRI K. RAMAMURTHY: Yea, rent. 'But this is a serious nlatter Sir. which is related to what bas happened in this House. 73 PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) 74

MR. SPEAKER: You please Something must be said about this .. make your point. (lnterruptions) SHltI K. RAM.A\MURTHY: Sir. J have given the notice', This matter SHRI IND'RAJIT GUPTA: Sir. something must be told in this con ~ attracts the issue of priviJep-e. 1 request you to- kindly refer this mat.. text .. .(/tllerruptions) ter to the Privileges ConJmittee. [English] [rran."at/an} MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Bhakata, SHRI SHOPAT SINGH MAKKA- YOU should have to wait. Take ~our SAR (Bikaner): Mr. Speaker, Sir. ~at. what is your opinion regarding Shri (Inte"upt;ons) A~hok Sen"s ~tatement? MR. SPEAKER: P!f"..lse sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Everyday yvu Rre being given a chance to say. [English] ( Interruptions)

Sr-m.l INDRAJIT GUPTA: Sir, MR. SPEAKER: You have to this House shou1d not a:lioum whh· wait. T win hear you. out the country knowing whether the Government conc;iders the statement (Interruptions) of one of its senior Ministers, Shri A. K. Sen. to be his own private pcrA !vlR. SPEAKER: Now, Shri sonal opinion, something which the Thambi Durai. Government is not prepared to en- (Interruptions) dorse or it is ~omething on which the Government prefers to keep quie-t. MR. SPEAKER: MJ. Bhakata. {Interruptions) Sir. the country wiH you please take your ~eat. i am should know whether the Govern a~king you to ~it down. ment stands by Mr. Scn'$ irrespon'i. ble statement or they nrepared to re, ( lnterrupti'ons) ject it. What is the view? Is it olJcring the Government's col1ective view Ot MR. SPEAKER: I am is it the view of ~1r. A. K. Sen? S1r. you to sit down. You should not he is attacking YOl'. attacking fhe do 1ik~ this. TalCe y",ur seat. ""low. Chair, attacking the Speaker's pres- Shri Thambi Durai. tige and his status. He, has said (lnfen-upt;ons) that you have violated the Constitu- tion.· If he is right. vou should not DR. TRAMB] DURAl: Mr. be in that Chair. at aU. This is a Speaker, Sir. some senior Membe~ serious matter. Sir. you cannot let have ju~t now raised the isc;ue about ~llCh frivolous things to go on every- your OffifJe, in the I--t~use.. ~me day. The Prime Minister ~bould Press has quoted the lnfervlew gIven come here and say whether he thinks hy a senior Minister of this Govern- that Mr. Sen's statement ic; reflectinv. ment. Sir, we also share the concern. the collective view of the (iovernmen"t Your Office is tltc hi'!hcst ()ffice and or it is some irresponsible thing. said there must not be any criticif)m. We on his own. Tomorrow, tJlere- will entrusted the powers to you: it is be no Parliamenta ry Se!;sion and your wiadom; your ded~!on is final. what the country will think about So~ when criticism comes often. it is Pnrliament? not a good thing. Our Hon. Prime [Tran.rlotton] Mini$ter bas 'llready 8s~ured thl'l House that he is not ,olng to allow SHR.I ~AT.YNARAYAN lATIYA any of bis colleagues t·, make such ({];;afn): Sir. ibis is a serious issu~. a statement. 6-6 LSSfNDI't JANUt\.RY 11, 1991 . 76

I think. when he 'bas said so, we He~e is a case of Mr:. Ashoke Sen. are taki'ng it for granted. We have a senior Member of the Cabinet. confidence in the Prime Minister. He has taken recourse to a publIc Therefore. if at all th.:re is any dj~­ statement vilifying or casting asper- crepancy. I think. tl1e Prime Mil1ister sion against the office of the Speaker. would take care of' it and also take 1t may be personal enlbarrassmeat necessary on that. for you, Mr. Rabi Ray but you are not Mr. Rabi Ray, you are Speaker Sir. your decision regarding dis- of the House. This jc; embarrassment qualification and other such matters of the entire House. It is the ques- is always final. We are nc1t question- tion of the privilege. right, honour. ing it. We uiso apr~aled to you dignity. convention of this House it- when one ()f flU r colleagues. Mr. self. Do you mean to say that we Kalimuthu. defected from our party. can di"charge our responro;ihiJity if We I th ink. you will fa ke an early action remain silent on the isc;ue? There- on rhnt and declare vour deds,ion. 1 fore, T strongly demand that some request you to take "an early action a<:tion should he taken by the Prime in th_at matter. (Interrup't;ons) Minister so that Mr. Ashoke Sen or anybody else is not allowed to get away with immunity. (Interruptions) SHRT SAlFUDDlN CHOU- DHURY (Kafwa): Sir. the question of the dignity and honour of the [Translation] Chair and the attempt to under- mine this by the Memhers of the Cabinet is going to\) far. Though SHRI SATYNARAYAN JATIYA: the Prime Minister has reitl~rated tha ( Mr. Speaker, Sir, so far as Parliamen- his Government has nothing of that tary discipline is' concerned, the sort in mind. hut the way the respon- Ministers said that ...... sible Members of t'le Cabinet arf' mak ing irre~ponsiblc stateJrlents is MR. SPEAKER: Please come bad and is a collapse of ('otlt'ctive to your own point. responsibility. It ~eems that we do not have a real authority in the SHRI SATYNARAYAN JATIVA: Government. We iust cnnnot tole- Mr. Speaker. Sir. this Government rate this. This should not continue will have to give a reply. I was any longer. Let them decide what going to submit that in Madhya is their opinion collectIvely. You Pradesh. there is shortage of e1ectri- should take a ~erj()tlS note of thi(\. city ... (I nferruptfom) We want that t'1is shoulcl be stoopt'd immediately. . SHRT SHOPAT SlNOH MAXKA- SAR: You are talking of wasting SHR 1 CHITTA BA SU (Baras~lt)· time. You have destroyed your own Again I am to stress on this subject party. Now you want to destroy that your office is th~'re to protect the nation. This i; ~hat you want. the dignity. prestifZe. trad ition. con- vention of this HClu~e. it j~ not only SHRI K. MANVENORA SIJ\l.QH on one occasion. The Prime Millj~­ (Tv{athura): You have destroyed the fer stre~~ed that the d'~ity of the party. office of the Sp<'»ker should be duly preserved. They have a Iso com:' SHRJ SATYNARAYAN JATIYA: mitted earlier that the Prime Min;'iter Mr. Speaker. Sir. I was talking about would also take 81"rropriate action if the difficulties being cX}'4rienced hy some of his c()ltea~ues do not acceJ)t pC;0l'le pwing to, sh9rtas.e Qf electri- the principle of coHectivt' respon~ihi ... city.. Demand ,of power exc.eeds Ihy. generation in-the State. The :HBI 77

pipeline passes through a ~ stretch of MR. 1 SP!3A.K:pR:. l r Ord7r, l?jJe~~/ 550 kilometres in the State and so have asked Sh, i Aher to' ~p~ak. long as a gas based PO"'" er plant is oot set up in the Sta~, demand of DR. DAULATRAO SONlJJI electricity cannot be lnet fully. There AH ER: Lakhs and lakhs of pilgrims is alIso a proposal to set up an ethy- and sadhul will be visiting Nasik at lene cracker plant and an oil refi- that time. There are M) many pro· nery. This Jitliculty will continue blems regarding the dlainage s},stem to be there til) the Uovernment ac· ot Nasik dty. 'Dak'\hina Kasi' cords its sanction for the setting up Godavari river fh)w~ through Pancha- of these projects h) ensure develop- vati and Nasik dty. There is the' ment in Madhya Pradesh .. .(lnte"up- prob1em of poillitjon (Jf this holy ,ions) river which is called "Dakshjna Kasi'. But the Centra) Governml!l1t has not paid any attention to thi~. de~pite the [English] fad that we tried {I.) draw its atten- tion. It is my b tlJl1 hIe reqlle~t that SHRI MANORr\NJAN BHAKA- the Central GOV~llllih.

!WOUld lib to bring to the notice of school going children are facin. a lot the HoUSe that tne metropolitan city of hardship for want of copies and of Bombay which is tue capital of text books. I "ould like to submit Maharashtra and the coramercial thIS much only. capital of Hindustan is being flooded 'by peOple. ~earty 400 to SOO .fa~1i­ SHRI SHOPAT SINGH MAKKA.. lies are reaching there and thIS In- ~ (Bikaner): Today is the last .t\ux bas badly affected the sanitation day of the session. As such I should :and civic services. Under Article also be given an opportunIty to 19, sub-Section 5. the control can be apeak. brought and the big city which is .guarded by sea water, can be saved MR. SPEAKER: You often get from the suffocation. up and speak wihout waiting tor permiss'ion. (Translation] [English] SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHAR- GAVA (Jaipur): Mr. Speaker, Sir. SHRI GOPINATH GAJAPATHI order to the ~ff ect tha t Governmen t (Berhampur): Sir, a very grave situa- of Rajasthan would be supplkd tion is now prevailing in the public ~ector paper at concessional rate~ for the undertaking of Indian Rare publication ot text books and produc· Earth Limited at Chatrapur in tion of exercise book~. had been Ganjam district of Orissa. particular- hsued, 1 would like to submit that ly in view of the concern expressed the Chief Minister of Rajasthan Shri only yesterday by the Han. Prime Bhairon Singh Shekhawat has writ- Minister regarding the welfare as well as revival of public undertaking. The ten to the Minister of Industry and present labour strike. bad nlanage- the Minister of Human Resource ment and labour relations as well as Development in June. 1990 that the poor quality management warral1t an 'State is not being supplied this paper imnlediate intervention by the Centre. at concessional rates. Supply of The management has not been able to paper was started from 1974-7S. bring the situation under control for Orders were issued in 1987 that the over six months now. In fact. they entire quota of paper should be made have not yet responded even to my available by Mis Hindpstan Co-ope· repeated initiatives on a compromise rative Ltd.. Calcutta. You will be formula. The lnquiry into the suspen- surprised to know that in the year sion of two senior office bearers of 1989-90 only 964 metric tor:.nes of the recognised labour union is not paper had been supp1i~d in place of completed. In fact. it is being stalled 3256 metric tonnes. But now a for a long time. A lucrative export situation has arisen when the H. p.e oriented public sector undertaking has totally refused to supply paper 3t cannot be allowed to incur huge losses the concessional rates. As a result. of Rs. 2 crores regularly every month. the prices of all the text books bein~ I • therefore. make a firm demand to printed in Rajasthan have gone up the Government of India to depute a by 38 per cent. Prices of exercise Cahinet Minister and make a thorough books have also gone up. I would. probe into the affairs of the Indian therefore, like to request the hon. Rare Earth Limited~ Chatrapur to Minister of Industry as also th" restore normalcy in this commercially Minister of Human Resour~ Ikve.. viable unit. lo~cnt to ensure that paper is sup· plted to Rajasthan at the rate announ· SHR..I PETER O. MARBANtANG ced by the Central G<"'vernment roo (Sbillong): I want to raise one very the publication of text books and relevant matter of public hnportance production of exercise books. Stll· about the non·commiMionin~ of the dents of higher clastes as w~ll ,l~ Doordarsbtm studio in ShilloQJ. 81 PAUSA 21, 1'12 (S"'KA)

Sbinong is the capital of Meshalaya. Shri 1aljiwan Ram aDd &evlnll odlcn Until now, they have not done anv- used to be Cabinet MiDisters in the thing to commission the studio. in council of MiDisters. But Sbri December 1989, I approached the Chandra Shekhar's Government is Janata Dal Government. They pro- the first Government which has ignor- mised to set up the studio. In the ed the Harijans and not provided a

month of March 90 also f I raised the berth in his cabinet. Such a htrae issue through Rule 377. for which I group bas been ignored. None of tile received a letter from the MimitCl group has been given a berth in the promising that he would r~cruit the cabinet. Nobody is representing JUCh staff to start the studio. But till now, a large group in the cabinet. There there is no sign whatsoever. I, there- are also three Ministers with indepen- fore. request the present Government dent charges. but OOIlC tlf them is a to please take necessary action on Hanjan .. .(1 nterruptiOns) ... this matter. . ~r. ~peaker. S~, i~ is all right tha! SHRT P. C. THOMAS (Muvattu- tt, IS hiS prerogative. But this shows puzha): Sir, this is the season now. hIS approach to work. It shows that when the pilgrims visit the Sabari Shr! Ch~ndra Shekhar's approach is Malai. As you know, Sabari Malai untl-HaTJJan. Mr. Speaker. Sir~ it is is the shrine of Lord A) yappn and not only that no Harijan ha~ been lakhs of people visit this place. Even included in the Cabinet. but T would from the North. people are going to also like to state ... (Interruptions) ... this ')hrine in motor vehicles and When I wrote to the General Secre- KeraJa is now passing through a very tary of the Janata DaI(s) whose nantc :-,erioll~ problem of diesel shortage. I would not like to refer here, he made a statement that there is no lC'gal There is yet another problem as binding that a Harijan must be in .. far a~J Kerala is concerned. The elec- eluded in the Cabinet. ..(Interrup- tions for District Council are going tions) ... to take place on January 29. Now~ taking these two matters together. ] MR. SPEAKER: O.k. You have think it is very immediately necessary made your point. Now what Dlorc do that the Union Government takes you want to say. special interest to give an additional quota of diesel to the State. The SHRI KALKA DAS: I Vtould like State Government has already reque- to say that these 37 people are anti.. sted for an additional quota. 10,000 Harijan. kilolitres of diesel should immediately be sanctioned to the Government of Mr. Speaker: I have heard you. Kerala in view of the Sa bari Malai season and the elections for district SHRI KALKA DAS: No one from councils. ~ II the Harijan Community has been ap- pointed from among the 37 MCIIlbers. [Translation1 They are anti·Harijan and the Prime MinisteT ... (/nterruPlions) ... SARI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I would like to draw [English] the attention of the august House to a very serious matter. I have also THE MINISTBR OF FINANCE written to the Hon. Prime Minister (SHltI YASHWANT SINHA): HO\\' about this lapse. Mr. Spe4ker~ Sir. can we discuss party matters here?" it is for the first time in the history of free India that there is no Harijan [Tran.rlatlon] Minister the Union Cabinet. Ear.. in SHIU Kr MAMVENDIlA SIN~ lier. there ~ to be one or the other Mr. Speattr., Sir, charps ha.e beeR Harijan Minister. Dr. Ambedbr. 83 JANUARY 11. 1991 84 rov.llod apinst the HOI1. Prime Minis .. S}{RI KHEMCHANDBHAI SO- .. that he is anti-Harijan. I t should MABHAI eHAVDA (Patan): Mr. be expunged from the records .... Speaker, Sirt this August House was (InJemlpti0R8) • .. ,:..... kind enough to pass the National Commission for Scheduled Castes and , SHltI KALKA DAS: It is for the Scheduled Tribes Bill. It was also titU time in the history of free Ihdia passed by the Rajya Sabha. Now. that no Harijan has been appointed it has become an Act and the Consti· .. 'Millisto!' in the Cabinet .. .(lnterrup .. tutioJ'l is appended accordingly. Still, tiDnl) ...... this lanata Dnl (S) Government is against the Scheduled Castes and Sche- MR. SPEAKER: Please take your duled Tribes ...... seat ...... (lnte"uptions) .. . MANY HON. MEMBERS: Who [English] said it? SHRI RUPCHAND PAL (Hoo .. SHRI KHEMCHANDBHAI SO- gbly): Sir. I want to raise a very MABHAI eRA VDA: Sir. uptill important matter. There is no Na- now. the Office of the COJnmissioner tional Tariff Policy in respect of power for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled and as a result9 the Eastern Region Tribes is going on just like that. It had to pay a lot more than what is ha~ no locus stOJUli. We have amend- paid by Northern Region. Southern ed the Constitution for the creation of Region and Western Region. The the National Commission. It was NTPC unilaterally-fixes the tariff. authorised by the Parliament. Still Altbougl1 the Singrauli Stage.II came this Government has not taken any later on, ~tin people are being pro- action to set up the National Commh- vided power at a cheaper ratt:. But ~ion for Scheduled Castes and Sche- for "power from Farakka. NTPC re- duled Tribe51 as per the Act passed ceives more as tariff frOlTI the Eastern by th is hon. Parliament. Region than what they receive from the other. regions. MR. SPEAKER: What do you want? It is a serious matter. It relates to Centre-State relations. Therefore. the SHRI KHbMCHANDBHAI SO· Government should l:OInc out with MABHAI CHAVDA: My request. a National Tariff Polky in respect of through you, is that they should take power and do away with the present prompt action and set up this National anomalies and discreminatory practice. Commission for Schedul~d Castes and Scheduled Tribes. SHRI PAUL R. MANTOSH (Nominated Anglo-Indian): Mr. Spea- [Translation] ker, Sir. Arunachal Pradesh has a long history of discrimination against DR. SHAILENDRA NATH" SHRl~ Christian minorities. On 2'Sth Decem· VASTA VA (Patna): Mr. Speaker, ber. i.e. on the Christmas Day, in the Sir, thank you very much for giving Tirap District, the minority Christian me an opportunity to make a special community were not freely allowed to mention. Today is lith lanuary--the celebrate Christmas festival. In fact. death anniversary of Late La} Bahadur the Deputy Commissioner of the Tirap Shastri. The position which Late Shri District had sent an order to village Shastri occupied in Indian politics Kapu to demolish a small Church need no emphasis. His entire life was which had been built there. dedicated to the natjonts service. He was above party politics. But it is J would. theref()r~. through you. distressing that the Central Govern- raise tbi~ matter before the ao"cm· ment did 'nothi11g... (lnttrruplions) meDt and '~dfaw tbeir atteMion. to preserve hismemory after his death. 85 PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) Stott. by Mlnirter 86 Budget Deficit A.pril-No 1'. 1990

We, all know that be did not have a uncrushed causing loss to the fatlDCIS house. He lived at 1. Moti Lal Nehru worth crorcs of rupees. Tbertfore. Place a Iso where his dead body was the Government should issue licences brought and kept for paying Jast tri· to new sugar mins without any delay buteo I demand that 1. Moti Lal so that surplus cane could be crushet! Nehru Place should be declared as for making sugar. Makar Sankrantl national monument. His statue should falls on 14th of this month. This day be installed in the Parliament House is 'celebrated in South as Pongal and complex and his portrait should be in Maha11lshtra, it has its own impor- placed inside the Central Hall of Par- tance. . Additional suppJies of edible liament. Besides. I would like to men- oiJ should be made to our State to tion that a White Paper was placed meet the demand. on the Table of the House on 30·12· 70 by the Government in connection with SHRI DHARM PAL SHARMA the mysterious death of Shastriji. but (Udhampur): Disturbing reports are the House was dissolved the follow· appearing in the. Press t~~t I.M.F. ~as ing day and no discussion could take laid down certaIn conditIons to glve place on that White Paper. 1. there~ loan to India. Some of the conditions fore. demand that discussion on that are: the power tariff shoul,d be raised,. White Paper should be held so that budget deficit should be brought down mystery about the death of Late Shri and economic subsidy should be re- Lal Bahadur Shastri could he brought duced. What I want to say is that to Jight. we are a free country and should not accept any such conditions as m~y SHRI SATYANARAYAN JA· hinder Country's development or ~r TTY A (Ujjain): The views expressed wise stand in the way of our economIc about Shri Shastri are appropriate be- policy. They should not dictate us as cause he was an apost1e of peace. to how we should mobilize our re- sources or formulate our polley. As "Utha dhara se shikhar pahunch such their conditions should not be aka ash ban gayaJl accepted. ~use if the rates C?f ete~­ Marte-marte vishwa shanti ke beej tricity, fert(hzer~ e~c. are. ratsed •. It 80 gaya." will result in pnce nse leadm~ to pse in prices of essentia! co~modJties l~e SHRI BALASAHEB VIKHE wheat and rice. 1111S will create a big PATIL (Kopargaon): The problem crisis before the country. Therefore. of edible oil in Maharashtra has tum none of th~se COl1ditions laid dp~l1 by grim. As against the monthly require~ the T.M ,P. should be accepted. ment of 20,000 tonnes, the supply was reduced to 16,000 tonnes. In Novem- ber, it was further reduced to 10t OOO tonnes and in December not even a 13.51 hts. kilogram of edible oil was supplied. The price per kilogram of edible oil STA TEMENT BY MINISTER is Rs. 40 but in Maharashtra, it is selling at Rs. 60 per kg. Through The Badpt DeIdt-April-No,.""', you, I would request the Government . 1~ to supply edible oil to Maharasbtra immedIately. [English] 'THE MINISTER OF FINANCE Secondly. adequate capacity to cl1lsh (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): A .w lakh tonaes of sugarcane is not statement on the budget deficit for the available in Mabarashtra, but licences four month pedod endina OD 311t for new sugar mills are not Wiaa July. 1m 'was made in Par118Dlent bY SWea-' As' a result sugarcane' is J,kll· my predecessbr on 28th AuaUst. 1990; 11 Statt. by M;"£fJer JANUARY 1l~ 1991 Budget D~'icit 83 April-Nov. 1990

{She Yasbwant Sinha] repatriation of Indian citizens from J. aDl DOW presenting a review of the Kuwait would h~ve to be bome by actuat developments in the budgetary the exchequer; there will be a short- siluatioa during the tirst eight months of tlte (!Utre"t financial year. fall in revenue attributable to the squeeze on non-oil imports and con- I It is important to recognise that tra,ction of output. dtere art! two characteristics of budget deficits. First. the deficit during the greater part of the year is higher than We oould not wait and al10w a the year-end deficit. Second, broadly further deterioration in the budgetary speaking. the month-end deficit regis- situation. There was no time to be ters a steady increase in the first six lost. Immediately on assuming office. months of the financial year. peaks I reviewed the position and initiated sometime during the four months tbat follow. and then declines to a lower several stepa to arrest the deterioration level at the end of the financial year. in the fiscal situation. I have inform- It is important to recognise that. on ed Honourable Members in the state- any day during the financial year. the ment made by me on 27th December. actual budget deficit is determined by 1990 about the action we have taken receipts and expenditure flows upto that date. It is not a cumulative to mobilise additional revenues esti- agre,ate; consequently. the budget mated at Rs. 1200 crores during the deficit on a particuJar day or at the current financial year. At the same end of a particular month is quite time, we are taking steps to keep a often higher than the year-end figure. strict rein on expenditure. As Mem.. The actual budget deficit on 30th bers are aware, in the Second Batch November, 1990 at the end of the of Supplementary Demands which first eight months of the current finan- were passed by the House yesterday cial year was 13,000 crores as Rs. presented to the Parliament on 27th compared with Rs. 13,082 crores in tbe preceding financial year. December. 1990, the net cash outgo win be only Rs. 649 crores. This is Th~ trends in respect of major items the total net additional outgo on ac- of receipts and expenditure for the count of Supplementary Grants so far period April·November. J990 as compared with April-November. 1989 during the current financial year. Last are indicated in the tabular statement year. at this stage. three Supplemen- annexed herewith. tacies. aggregating to a net cash outgo of Ri. 2119 crores. had been pre- 14.00 Jan. sented. The deficit of Rs. 13,000 crores at the end of November~ 1990 represents I have also indicated in my state- a disquieting picture of shortfalls in ment made on 27th December, 1990 reveaue r~ipt8 while expenditure tllal the combination of measures on continUl!ct to be incurred as budgeted. the revenue and expenditure side In addition. there has been under- would ensure that the fiscal deficit of funding of the requirements for the the Government does not exceed Fum Loan Waiver Scheme. The Gulf 8.3c/cl of the ODP in 1990-91. We etisiB has also led to a deterioration have thus started the process of cOr- iJ1 the fiscal situation because~ the rectiD& the' serious fisc.~ hnbatance." ~ ~I?IUMS would not matoriaIi80; We wut continue the proce&l. of fiscal tbe ·burden on accou1lt of fertiii.. r c.. tion· ... oasoIidatioa .. 1991- Illbaidies \\"uld iucJoase; the cost of 92. 89 Statfl by Mlnlst" PAUSA 21,1912 (SAKA) Budg~t D~ficlt Aprll-No,_ 1990 ANNEXURE

April- Percenta,.e April. Percentaae November of Budget November nfBudpt (In R.v. Estimates (In R.,. Estimat.tt crores) 1990-91 crores) 1989-90

Tax Receipts

Corporation Tax 1001 16-44 1233 25·93 Income Tax 2233 41·16 2299 54;lS Customs Duties 12468 58·10 I I 192 62·60 Union Excise Duties 14859 59·14 13683 .·17

Capital Receipts

Market Borrowing 5653 70·60 3135 42·40 Special Deposits 2382 32·80 3488 59·60 Net External Assistance 1204 21-80 953 24·30 Net Small Savings Collections 3642 72·84 3865 84·02

Expenditure

Major Subsidies 5748 67·50 4994 61\·84 Write off of Farm Loans 1000 100·00 Nil Nil

Interest Payment~ 8532 4] ·00 8428 49·60 Central Assistance to States for State Plans 6394 60·70 5024 56·90 States Share of Taxes, Duties and Revenue , deficit grants 10024 59·]0 863] 6S·70 Loans to State Governments against Small savings coJlections 4647 103-26 4076 "-40 Note: Figures art provisional. 7-6 LSS/ND/9J ft· ~nt'QI A..riculturol JANUARY 11. 1991 .ft. Comm. on 92 Uni,er..dty Bill Repre.'\entaiion of the People (Amend.) Bill Nom;nation of Members of Lok Sabha to the Committee

MR. SPEAkER: The House stands [Engftshl adjoatned for lunch to re-assemble at 3 P.M. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We shall now take up Matters under Rule 1.. 03 Ian. 377. The £Ok Sobho then adjourned for THE MINISTER OF COMMER· llfTlCh till Fifteen of the Clock. CE AND MINISTER OF LAW AND JUSTICE (SHRI SUBRAMANIAM The 1.ok Sabho re .. assembled a/tel SW AMY): Sir. I have to go to Rajya Lunch 0/ six minutes post Fifteen of Slbha. J request you to take up item the Clock. no. 15 on the Agenda. It will take only two or three minutes. [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair] MR. DEPlJTY SPEAKER: Okay. CENTRAL AGRICULTURAL UNIVERSITY BILL * IS •• hrs. [English] JOINT rOMMITTEE ON REPRE- ,THE MINISTER OF STATE IN SENT A TION OF THE PEOPLE THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRI- (AMENDMENT) RILL CUI:.. TURE AND CO-OPERATION IN TI-IE MINISTRY OF AGRICtJL- Non'tlina ~~on of Members 01 Lot TURE (SHRI JAYANTTLAL VIR- S~bha to the Committee CHANDBHAI SHAH): Sir, I -beg to [Englishl move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the establishment and in- THE MINISTER OF COMMER· cOf'puration of a University, for the CE AND MINISTER OF LAW North-Eastern region. for the deve- AND JUSTICE (SHRI SUBRA- )opment of agriculture and for the MANTAM SWAMY): I beg to furtherance of the advancement of move: learning and prosecution of r ... "earch "That this House do concur in in agriculture and allied sciences in the recommendation of RajY"l that region. Snbra that the House do join in MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The the Joint Committee of the question is: HOll~e') on the Bil1 further to "That leave be granted to intro- amend the Representation of the duce a Bin to provide for the 'People Act. 1950 and the establishment and incorporation Renrel\entation of the Pe?p1e of a University. for the North- Act. 1951. made in the motion Eastern region. for the develop- ndooted by Rajya Sabha at its c;ittit1g held on the 7th January. I • 'ment of agriculture 3nd fOr the furtherance of the advancement 1991 and communicated to' this of Yearning and prosecution of House on the 9th January.. 1991 research in agriculture and slUed and do reso1ve that the following .sciences in that region." 30 members of Lok Sabha be nominated to serve on the said The motion was (f{/op1er/. JOirlt Committee. namely:- SHRI JAYANTILAL VIRCHAND· (1) Shri L. K. Advani BHAI SHAH: Sir, J introduce the (2) Shri Ama1 Datta BID. (3) S~rimati Vyjayantimala Bali (4) Shri Chitta Basu • Published in Gazette of lndia. Extraordi. nary. Part lIt Section 2 dated t 1-1-1991. (5) Shri Yusuf Beg It. Comm. 6n PAUSA 21,. 1912 {SAKA) Non,illationo/Mem. Represent£ltion of bers of Lok SabiUJ" the People (Amend.) to the Conll"itte~ Bill (6) Shri Gil'dhari Lal Bhargava should be in that Committee. This is my submission. This whole thing 1:an (7) ell. Jagdeep Dhankhar be reconsidered on that line. . , (8) Shri lnurajit Gupta (q) Shri Kadambur M. R. lanae- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is the dhanan ~ljni~tcr interested in responding? (10) Shri Srikanta Jenl SHRI SlJHRAMANIAM SWAMY: (11) I'rof. Meijinlullg Kamsun A~ yo u know, these nlatters are not \led.Jed by the Minister. The Parlia .. (12) Shri Lokendra Singh 1)1..;ntary Affairs' Minister in consul- :ation with the Leader of the Opposi- (13) Shri Peter G. MarbaniaJlg tjon makes the decision on t!te size of (14) Shri Raj Mangal Mishra l;.c Committee and after that tho com- p(hl1io;1 is decided on the strength of (15) Shri Nitish Kumar the parties. If un individual is there, (16) Dr. Oebi Prosad Pal he 1-; :~lmes it decimal point in the 411\).:.1 f~'rmation. We will try as best (17) Shri Rameshwar Patidal U5 pO,j~ible to accommodate all the partie~ in variou~ committees. But (18) Shri Shankararao PatH r~gard~ng this particular item tbe list (19) Shri R. N. Rakesh ha') been formally prepared aft" aQopt- ing the due processe:,. (20) Shri Ranl Sagar (Bara Banki) (21) Prof. N. G. Ranga SHRJ A. K. ROY: The quota syS- tem is not good everywhere. So here (22) Shri Dharmanna Mondayya there arc some J 7 parties. SaduJ (23) Shri Ibrahim SulaiIllan Sait MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You have made the point and he has res· (24) Shri Ani] Shastri ponded. Now you can speak to him (25) Shri B. P. Singam ]acfwards. But there is no point of order as such. There is no procedure (26) Shri Surajbhanu S<.)lanki violated in presenting this motiOD. (27) Shri Brij Shushan Tiwari bHI~l A. K. ROY: You want to (28) Shri K. P. Unnikrishnan go in for electoral reforms where you have to accommodate the opinion of (29) Shri Srikantba Datta Nara .. all the political parties. For that you simha Raja Wadiyar are presenting before the House a panel and that panel excludes the (30) Shri Janardan Yadav.~' names of most of the smallor parties.

SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad): Sir, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That I bave aPt til point of order Qn this. may be a point but that is not a 1 do not want to question how the names ace selected,·for the Joint Com- point of order. mittee. JBut I would like to submit that it is a que,lion of electoral re- SHR 1 A. K. ROY: It is a po"t forms where the opinion of all the to prevent future disorder. ' Parties. wbother big or small. should be accommodated. At least one re-, SHRI SUBRAMANIAM SWltMY; presentative from all the Parties We will take this point for future which art recOinised iD thil House ·codsideration. 95 Jt. Comm. on JANUARY It, 1991 Matters under 96 \ Representation of the Rule 377 People (Amend.) Bill Nomination of Melnbers olLok Sabha to the Committee

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The (20) Shri Ram Sagar (Bara Banki) question il: (21) Prof. N .. O. Ranga "That this House do concur in (22) Shri Dharmanna Mondayya the recommendation of Raj)a Sadul Sabha that the House do join in (23) Shri lbrahitn Sulahnan Sait the loint Committee of the Houses on the Bill further to amend the (24) Shri Ani! Shastri Representation of the People Act. 1950 and the Representation of (25) Shri B. P. Singam the People Act, 1951, made in (26) Shri Surajbhanu Solanki the motion adopted by Rajya Sabha at its sitting held on the (27) Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwari 7th January, 1991 and communi- (28) Shri K. P. Unnikrishnln cated to this House on the 9th January. 1991 and do resolve (29) Shri Srikantha Datta Nara

I that the following 30 members of siJnha Raja Wadiyar Lok Sabha be nominated to serve on the said Joint Committee (30) Shri Janardan Yadav." lIamely:- The Illotion was adopted. (1) Shri L. K. Advani (2) Shri AmaI Datta (3) Shrimati Vyjayantimala Bali 15.13 1lI's.

(4) Shri Chitta Basu MATTERS UNDER RULE 377 (5) Shri Yusuf Beg (i) Need to take steps to check in- (6) Shri Girdhari Lal Bargava crease in accidents on National (7) Ch. J agdeep Dhankhar Highways. (8) Shri Indrajit Gupta [English] (9) Shri Kadambur M. R. Janar- SHRI C. P. MUDALA GIRl· dhanan Y APPA (Chitradurga) : Despite a . (10) Shri Srikanta Jena comprehensive Motor Vehicles I Act, there is a steep increase in the num- (11) Prof. Meijinlung Kamson ber of accidents on the Highways of (12) Shrl Lokendra Singh the country. Hundreds of precious lives and property worth several lakhs (13) Shri Peter G. M.arbaniang of rupees are lost every month. The statistics of Highway accidents for the (14) Shri Raj Mangal Misbra last ten years reveal that there is an ItS) Sbrl Nitish Kumar abnormal increase in the number of accidents. This trend is required to (16) Dr. Debi l'rosad Pat be checked 'immediately. (17) Shri Rame9hwar Patidar Several reasons ba\'e been attributed (18) Sbri Sbankararlo Patil for the fatal accidents includibg: (19) Shri R. N. Rakesh t. Low salary to the drivers: 97 Matters under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Rule 377 98

2. Overtime work from the drivers (iii) Need to conduct UPSC Exallli. and nations in aU Indian IaBI ....es

3. Lack of facilities like food, [ Tram lation J water et~. on the roadside. SHRI KAPIL DEV SHASTRI (Sonc:pat): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. I urge upon the hone Minister of India is a multi·lingual country sO SUlface Transport to improve the con· the "'dlHlidate~ ~hould be given the dition of National Highways and to option of answering questions in the avoid accidents. cxanlinations conducted by the Com- Jnission In any Indian lang.uage of theit (ii) Need to give priority to construc- choice. 1 his has become essential. It tion of main railway lille bet. WIlt ptovide justice to Lhc people of ween I.;atllr Road and Korud- all parts of the country because one O~manabad wadi Via in ]\flaha- ... JIl grasp any ~ubject quite easily in rashtra. . one'~ own nlother tongue. With this end in view. 1 resolution to this effect SHRI AR V] ND I ULSHTRAM v. ~~ adopted on 18th January. 1968 KAMBLE (Osmanabad): Marath- in both the Houses of Parliament. wada region ot Maharashtra i~ the It was fol1owed by a written assuran- tnO'it backward region of the State. ce by the Government on 26th May. The deveJopn1ent of the area is 1989. Thereafter in reply to a ques- hlocked due to non·existence of tion on 17th August, 1990, an assu- hroad-gauge Jines. Railway lines rance waCi given to introduce all are pre-requisite 01 development for 1ndian languages dS medium of any are.l. There are a few railway examination in UPSC examina- Jines in the area but they are on metre tions. A number of M.Ps also or narrow gauge 1ines. If thelie lines wrote to the Prime Minister in this are converted into broad-gauge the connection. 1 have received a memo- development of the area win be has· randum trom the Akhil Bhartiya tened. Rhasha Sanrakshan Sangathan also. Due to all these reasons. thil\ demand h3S gained momentum. Therefore, I The Ministry of RajJw:ly~ have request that the decision taken by completed the survey for the conver· the Government earlier should be im .. sion of the narrow gauge lines which plemented soon. run between Kurudwadi and Latuf. The survey bas been done from Latur [Efl'Rlislt] to Kurudwadi via Osmanabad. Mv submission is that the same very line (iv) Need to expedite tonstruction of should be extended between Latur Malayora Railway liBe from and Latur Road. a distance of only Angamaly to Achellcoil ill Kerala 30 kms. If this whole line goes from Latur Road to Latur and from Latur to Kurudwadi via Osmanabad then SHRI P. C. THOMAS (Muvattu- there C'ln he a direct line from Hyde- nUlha): Sir, the proposed Malayora rabad to Bombay. This railway line Railway from Angamaly via Kalaoy. will join Marathwada from big cities MaIayattoor. Perumbavoor. Kotha- mangaiam. Muvattupuzha. Vazhak .. like Bombay I3nd Hyderabad. kulam, Thoduduzha. Palai, Kanjira .. pally, Erume]y~ Pathanamthitth to I request the Minister for Railways A('hell<'oit is to be surveyed and con· that keeping in view the sentiments structed immediately. It win cOnnect of the people of Maratbwada and severa) 'Dilgrim centres includin't Saba .. the development of the region~ the rima1a. Bbarananganam, Sivagiri etc. construction of the above .. said railway and several commercial towns in the line should be accorded priority. foreign exchange earning .agricultural Matters under JANUARY 11, t9~1 Rule 377 100

[Sh .. P. C. Thomas] The employees and officers of the lands of KeraJa. As a continuation to R.R.Bs. under the banner of Konkan Railway, this line will con- A.I.k.R.H.E.A., filed a writ petition nect South to North. I req uest the in the Supreme Court in 1984, pray .. Government to take urgent steps in iug for equal pay for equJl work. The this regard. Supreme Court advised the Central Government to the dhpute to a (v) Need to re.. iDltate the victiDlised rerer Tribunul headed by a retired Chief Ralway eIIIp10yees JUl)tice of a High Court. SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad); Sir. the organisations ot the Railway em- 1n terms of the said order of the pJoyees, irrespective of their plJitkal Supreme Court, the Centra). Govern- altiliatioll, are unanimously demand- tllent appointed a National Industrial ins since long for the immediate re· Trihunal consisting of Sri Ju.t;;tke instltCment of their victimised collew S. <)buJ Reddy. Retired Chief Justice' agues Rumbering about one thousand, of I Ii~h Coull of Andhra Pradesh as removed from the job because or i'~ Chairman. The Government ac- their trade uuion activities. The vic- cepted that the dedsion~ or the Tribu- timised employees are of two types. nal ~'·.ould be final aud binding. One category was removed by using Jaw under rule 14(ii) of the Railway The TribunJJ in its award declared Service (Discipline and Appeal) thn t the officers and emplbyees should Rules. The other by subtle method get salary and other allowances as of transfer and other punitive mea- per scale of officers/employees of com. sures. parable level at SpOnsored n' Ilks from September 1. 1987. As per the request of the prevh)u~ Railway Ministers, the Central Fede- An equation Committee set up on rations and categorical organisations the 11th October, 1990 by Govern- submitted a comprehensive list of vic- ment (,f India was given instructions timised employees and they were as- to give their report within one month. sured of immediate consideration. Subsequently. clear order was issued by the Minister for their reinstatement. 1 request the Government to im- It is strange that even that order was plement National Industrial Tribunal award, with payment of arrears from not imptemcnted Iby the Railway Board. 1-9-1987, without flfrtnor delay. I urge upon the Government to im- (vii) Need fop adeqaate suppl, 01 LPG plement the order of the previous gov- in tile co_try ernment and reinstate the victimised railway employees at once. [1 ran.dation] (vi) Need to implement National In· dustries Tribllllal award regard. SHRI SATYNARAYAN JATIYA

Inl pay.ent of Salary and ADo· (Ujjain): Mr. Deputy Speakert Sir~ wances to employees of Relioaal LPG is an important fuel for R.ral Buk. at Par with those cooking. Recently the Government 01 sponsored Bub. has increased the refill ins . tJCfiod which has resulted in a lot of JaCOlr SHRI CHITTA BASU (Barasat): venience to the consumers, especially Regional Rural Bank was establish- the housewives. Besides. blackmarket- ed In the year 1975 by RegiOnal Rnral ing in LPG. . cylinders has increased Bank Act, 1916. As per Section 17(1) wbich bas forced the 'consumers to thereof. ~e employees of R.R.Bs. ate huy gas cyUnders in the hlack market entitletl to get salary with due reprd so as to meet their tequitemeut. 'The to the salary structure of the respective demand for LPG is in",.easio8 day by State Governments. day as the' availability (Jf 'oilier types' 101 Matters under PAUSA :'1, 1912 (SAKA) Rut" 377 102 of fuel is becoming increasingJy scarce. (ix) Need to briag Hillel.... Shlp- Tn such a situation, when there is a yard Ltd., ViBhaldaapataam either need for opening new 0utlets for the under Ministry of Defence or supply of LPG in new areas. it is also necessary to improve the supply posi- merge it with tile Shipping Co.... tion to overcome the existing shortoge. poration of India

Therefore. I would request the [E11Rlish] hon. Minister of Petro1eum to accord top priority to the sup· SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- pJy of LPG cylinders for the rurpo~e DHURY (Katwa): Mr. Deputy Spea- of cooking so that the supply could ker, Sir, Hindustan Shipyaru Ljnlitec.l, meet the demand and cyinders could Vishhk:lpatnam) a major ship build· be made availal)le at the }1rescribect in~ industry in pub1ic sector is facing rates. At the same time, new LPG gI ave crisis. The crisis is not due to afgencies should be opened at suetl its inc~pacity to build ships but is due Tehc;ils and Sub nivic;ional headquar- to the policy being pursued by the ters where this facility is not availa~ Government in r~spect of producti- ble at present. Till such time this faci- vity. pricing and personnel. This ship- Ii ty is not made a va ila ble at Tehsil ~:1fd has the technical capability to and Sub Division:ll hf'aciquarters, LPG build high qUJlity vessels indi- cylinders fro'll district headquarters genously. However~ I am sorry may be supplied. Necessary arrange· to say that 1he management mcnt~ for the ',up::-jy of LPG cylin- 11 lS been reducing the staff who are de"c;: 3t Barna!!'lr and rarana areas directly responsible for productivity. of Uijain district and Alote area of To cite an example, the nurn'her of R:!lla111 district (hc'\u1d be ma:le soon. workers involved in production were reduced from 7000 in 1983 to 4700 in 1990, while the nunlber of offi,"~ers (vi~) N('(ld to «.trc'lmiinc the pro~e­ increased from 150 in 1983 to 850 in durt of issuin~ Scheduled Castes 1990. The Government j~ not taking and Scht'duled Tribes certlfkates initiative to procure more orders for this shipyard. On the contrary. shjp ownl!rs including the f)hipping Corpo- SHRI CI1ANI) RAM (Hurcl'Ji) Mr. ration of India are placing olders from Deputy·Speaker. Sir, reports have ap- abroad. The Government's pricing peared recently in the newsnarer1 policy does not correspond with the about issuing fake certificates of sche- adual cost of production of a ship trading to loss to the shipyard. LastlY9 dll't"'d c:tste ,:nd s,:}'e ~nl("d tribe for rtdmiBsion in fle1hi lJniversitv antj genuine grievances of the workers who other in"tilutes as also in the case of have been sacrificing their interest<; hy service matters. This is a serious cooperating with the nUlnagement in mJtter. The Central Government. the ~heir austerity f1rogramlne. are being qu~stion State (Jovcrntnents and the Admini~ 19nored. The of wage revi· frat!()T'lS of Union teiritnries should sion is pending" the Jast agreement having been expired on 31-1~1l)90. take steps to check jc.fuin l! of fake certifi':'1t!Cii by H ny person Of issuing of wrong certificates bv the officials. A sub committee ~h(luJd ~ constitut~d In order to ward off any crisis 1 to go into the wh~'le episooe and to sl.!ggest that an th~ pending orders suggest measures to streamline the should be cleared bv the Government procedure of issuing certificates and immediately. As a long term measure to punish those who ;s~ue fake or this Rhip)'8.rd may be brought under \\ttone ~tificatcs. The certificates the Defence Ministry or may be mer· issued I luring the tac;t one or two years oed with the Shioping C(~rporation of should be thoroughly screened. India. ~ 103 Matter,~ under JANUARY 11, 1991 Rule 377 104

(x) Need to provide adequate facilifies place every year resulting in more to weekly aad fortnightly lotal than 100 deaths. The Central Gov_;;rn- newspapers ment had allocated funds f{\:, acquir- ing land for the construction of by- [Translation] pass and this work had been complet- ed a year ago. State Government of SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora): Rajasthan had ~anctjoned Rs. 95 lakhs Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before 1 ~it for the construction of service line on 'dharana' in front of the Ch~lmber and started work on it The Central of Shri Kamal Morarka. Minister of Government was to accord financial State in the Prime Ministel's Office. I sanction for the construction but the want to raise the following nlatter ,;ume has not been done so far with under Rule 377 with your perm is- the result that construction work h.! '> sion: not started so far. The result is that inconvenience being en u~ed to the Weekly and fortnightly newspapers people of Uda ipur city h:ls inc"ea~c:i play an important role in high1ightin~ all the more becal.1~e the Natio'1al people's problems and bringi'1~! thew Highway No. 8 p':l~ses through the into the national main stream in rural heart of the city. BY-T'ass in all the areas and small towns of the country. big and small cities falling on this During the last one decade the bip National Highway have been construc- dailies released very few ad\' ~rtis~­ ted. Udaipur---a tourist spot and a ments to small newspapers heing pu~­ historical place is the only dty which lished from various cities even at is devoid of this facility. nominal rates. Even their (plr.ta 0f newsprint is not ~upplied to them i" Therefore. the Minisltry of Surhce time. The reSult is that these in1po"'- Transport should take in1mediate tant media which create public ot)in~ ~teps to start construction of this hv- ion in rural areas are gradually clo~jng na~s. down their public-ation. The (levern- ment should constitute high level Com- (,.H) Need to take steps, to JH'ovidle mittee immediate1y to study the pn)- drinking water in various regions blems being faced by these new.;p~rClS of Ja&anabad, Bibar and tlke comprehensive measures to make them econ\)mically vbb1c. Tn SHRI RAMASHRA Y PRASAD give them immediate relief. the Gov- SlNG,H (Jahanabl(1): Mr. Denuty ernment should take steps in the dir- Speaker. Sir, Inrlia is a big country. ection of simplifying the procedure of but it is still facing severe prohlen1 of giving recognition to these newspapers drinking water. This is a very serious raising advertisement tariff and quota matter which causes concern. Even of newsprint and compulsory release after 42 years of independence. we of employment news bt~ides makia r have not been able to provide potable provision for giving at le~lst one fourth drinking water to the people. Tn laha- representation to these newsl"apers in nahad district, hand-pumPR cannot h~ various Committees of Journalists. installed in Daulatpur, Akbarpur and Makhpa viUages of Makhdumpur (xi) Need fo ronstnlct a 8y.. Pass near block. Thikraur village of Ohoshi Udaipur in Rajasthan on Natio- block. Nonahi village of Parko blOCK. nal Highway No. 8 Baisna. Khagrif)Ur, Na1!ra and Ja2" doha villages of Khijar Sarai block SHRI OULAD CHAND KATA- because the land in these villa'ges is RIA (Udaipur): Mr. Deputy Speaker. rocky and, as such, water is brought Sir, Udaipur is situated On the Nation- from outside. al Highway 1\To. 8. The proposal re- gar

(xiii) Need to take steps for overall (xiv) Need to declare IAjmer district development of Mithila region of Rajasthan, and industriaDy backward district or Bihar [Translation] [English] PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT (~jmer):. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. AJ~er Clty of Rajasthan occupies a SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA glorIOUS place in the history and it (Madhubani): Sir. North Bihar, par- has its own importance from cultural. ticularly its Mithila region seems to educational and religious point of have been discriminated against Per vie~. Till, 1956, Ajrner city w,as a Capita consumption of electricity in p~lon T~rfltory. but after its merger North Bihar is one-fourth of that in wlth Rajasthan. the city has been the rest of Bihar which itself is far victim of neglect as it was not pro- behind the national average. Extension perly developed from industrial and of Broad gauge line from Samastipur economic point of vjew, The result through Darbhanga to J ay-Nagar and is that unemployment in the district Raxaul and from Mansi to Saharasa has. taken severe proportion. Ac- is delayed endlessly. Even extension cordlng to the norms 1aid down by work to Darbhanga" moves at a snaifs the Planning ComlDission. this district pace. was not declared as industrially back- ward with the result that no heavy or sman industry in public or" private sector could come up because no Completion of Western Koshi canal concessions for this purpose were was extended from 1980 to 1987 and granted. Therefore. I would demand to 1993-94. Even the construction of that with a view to removing unem- syphone across river Kamla is deiay- ployment and poverty from Ajmer cd. Same is the ca~e with the ,renova- district and faciiitating all round tion of Eastern Koshi and Kanlla development of places 'like Nasira- CanaJs. Construction of mUlti-purpose bad. neawa,r, K~shangarh. Vijaynagar. dams over rivers Koshi at Bnrakshe·· Pushkar Kekdl, etc .. the entire dis- tra. over Kamla at Shish8p'JIli 8lad trict should he declared jndustriallv and over Bagmati at Nunther is neg- backward and heavy and ,SmaU in-- lected and no talks with HMG Nepal dustrial units suited to these areas for these in the mutual interest of should be set up and special conces- both the countries have been held sions given to them. ~uring the last decade except once In 1988. Floods, droughts, power cri~ 15.33 hrs. sis and disruption in road, rail con- CANTONMENTS (AMENDMENT) nections have become the fate of the BILL area. Ashok paper mins, Fl uit proces- sing mills of Madhubani. Darbhanga Amendment made by Rajya Sabbal are languishing. News bulletins in [English) ~.1athjli language are not broadcast MR: DEPuty SPEAKER: We due to transmitting capacity of A.l.R. are taking up, item No. 14. Darbhanga. Modernisation of sugar and jute mills are being neglected and Shri l.alit Vijoy Singh. the demand for petro-\:hrmical com- THE MINISTER "OF STATE IN : plex at Baraun is ignored. THE MINISTR Y OF DEFENCE (SHRI LALIT VIJOY SINGH): 1 beg to move: I urge the Government to look into 'Thai the following amendment these matters before' it is too late. made by Rajya Sabha in the Bill 8-6 LSS/ND/91 107 Jt. Comm. on AIDS JANUARY 11, 1991 Members o.fLok Sabha 108 Pre,ention Bill to the ("ommittee Nomination of

further to amend the Cantonments AND FAMILY WELFARE AND Act. 1924, be taken into consi- DE'PUTY MINISTER IN THE deration:- MINISTRY OF INDUSTRY (SHRI DASAI CHOWDHARY): On be- CI&uIe I-Short Title half of Dr. SHAKEELUR REH- MAN, I beg to move: That at page 1, in line 3, for "1990" $ubatitute " 1991" • "That this House do concur in the recommendation of Rajya MR. DEPurY SPEAKER: The Sabha that the House do join question is: in the Joint Committee of the 'That the following amendment Houses on the Bill to provide for made by Rajya Sabha in the Bill the prevention and control of further to amend the Canton- the spread of Human Immuno ments Act, 1924. be taken into Deficiency Virus (HIV) infection consideration :- and to provide for specialised medical treatment and social a..e l-Short Tide support to, and rehabilitation of, persons suffering from Ac- That at page 1. in line 3, Jor quired Immuno Deficiency Syn- "1990" substitute "1991". drome (AIDS) and for matters connected therewith and inciden- TJle motiOn was adOpted. ta1 thereto made in the motion adopted oy Rajya Sabha at its SHRI LALIT VIJOY SINGH: I sitting held on the 7th January, beg to move: 1991, and communicated to this House on the 9th January. ]991 "That the amendment made by and do resolve that the fol1ow- Rajya Sa1bha in the Bill be ing 20 members of Lok Sabha agreed to." be nominated to serve on the said Joint Committee. namely:- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question is: 1. Dr. Daultrao Sonuji Aber "That the amendment made by 2. Shri Nani Bhattacharya Rajya Sabha in the Bill be agreed to." 3. Dr. Ram Chandra Dome The motion war adopted. 4. Shri Ynder lit s. Dr. Venkatesh Kabde 15.35 his. 6. Shri S. Krishna Kumar JOINT COMMITTEE ON ACQUI- 7. Shri Vamanrao Mahadik RED IMMUNO DEFICIENCY SYNDROME (AIDS) PREVEN- 8. Smt. Jayawanti Navincbaudra TION BILL Mebta NomiaatIoa of 1\fembers of Lok 9. Shri ,B. M. Mujahid SabIaa to the Commiftee 10. Dr. R. Ramadass [T'''''t#lon] 11. Dr. Shakeelur Rehman THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THB MINISTRY OF HEALTH ] 2. Dr. Bbajwan DBs Ratbor 109 It. Comm. on PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Discussion under 110 AIDS Prevention Bill Rule 193 Nomination of mem- Situation in Punjab bers 0/ Lok Sabha 10 the Committee

13. Shri Y.S. Rajasekhar Reddy 7. Shri Vamanrao Mahadik 14. Shri . Mabadeepak Singh 8. Smt. Jayawanti Navillchandra Shakya Mehta 15. Shri Dharm Pal Sharma 9. Shri B. M. Mujahid 16. Dr. C. Silvera 10. Dr. R. Ramadass 17. Shri Taslimuddin 11. Dr. Shakeelur Rehman 18. Shri K.C. Tyagi 12. Dr. Bhagwan Das Rathor 19. Shri Ram Krishan Yadav 13. Shri Y. S. Rajasekhar Reddy 20. Dr. Golam Yazdani." 14. Shri Mahadeepak Singh Shakya [English] 15. Shri Dharm Pal Sharma MR. DBPUTY SPEAKER: The question is: 16. Dr. C. Silvera 17. Shri Taslimuddin "That this House do concur in the recommendation of Rajya 18. Shri K.C. Tyagi Sabha that the House do join in the joint Committee of the 19. Shri Ram Krishna Yadav Houses on the Bill to provide for 20. Dr. Golam Yazdani." the prevention and control of the spread of Human Immuno Defi- The motiolll Was' adopted. cIency Virus (HIV) infection and to provide for specialised medical treatment and social support to, and rehabilitation of, persons 15.38 hrs. suffering from Acquired Immuno Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) and DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193 for matters connected therewith and incidental thereto made in Situation in Punjab the motion adopted by Rajya Sabha at its sitting held on the 7th January, 1991, and communi- [English] cated to this House on the 9th MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We January, 1991 and do resolve will take up Item No. 17: Discus- that the following 20 members sion under Rule ),93. Shli L. K. of Lok Sabha be nominated to Advani. Two hours are allotted serve on the said .Toint Commit- this discussion. tee, namely:- Ifor 1. Dr. Daultrao Sonuji Aber [Translation] 2. Shri Nani Bhattacharya SHRl L. K. ADV ANI (New Delhi): 3. Dr. Ram Chandra Dome Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. situation in Punjab is beIng discussed on the 4. Shri Inderjit last day of the session and it would have disappointed the people of S. Dr. Venkatesh Kabde Punjab. had it not been discussed in 6. Shri S. Krishnakumar this SCISioD. 111 Discu.ysion undet' JANUARY 11, 1991 SituatIon in Puiljab 112 Rule 193

[English] the bullets of terrorists in the year 1990. About 1000 so called terro- PROF. N. G. RANGA (Guntur): rists have been killed in the drive Why don't you speak in English? carried out by the Government and the security forces against terrorism. SHRJ L. K. ADV ANI: It wa~ It means 3,500 people have been kil- decided that we should speak in led there in the year 1990. English as well as in Hindi. Let us not be exclusive about it. I have Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not tried to do 'my best to implement this. know who will give reply to the de- bJte in the House. I think Shri PROF. N. G. RANGA: Thank Kamal Morarka will give reply to you. the discussion because the Prime ~1jnjster and Shri Subodh Kant Sahay PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE are not present here. (Rajapur): Translation js beautiful. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE [Translation] (Bolpur); Shri Bhajan LaI will reply. SHRI L. K. ADVANI: Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, it is a short duration discussion and that is why SHRI BHAJAN LAL (Falidabad): it is not possible to discuss it thorou- Yes. I will reply. ([nterruptions) ghly as to why the situation has deteriorated so much in Punjab. But SHRI L. K. ADV ANI: I hope broadly speaking everyone of us who-so-ever replies to the debate would agree that disappointment and would leave no stone untufned to a~­ discontent are there in every State sure the people of Punjab and tha t of the country though reasons there- should be done too, During the for differ. Similarly, such reasons last ten years, particularly after may also be there in Punjab but it during the last six years of the de- has happened in this decade only cade of 1984 I have been visiting that this discontent has risen to such Punjab from time to time. Even heights that it has taken the form of recently I visited Amritsar and Chan- separatism and extremism. Reasons digarh last month and on that basis of such discontent have been there I can say that the terror, fear and earlier also and agitations were start- panic which I have seen among the ed but they had never taken such an people of Punjab including Chandi- ugly turn in the past. I think the garh, have never been seen before. year 1990 has been th~ bloodiest \Vhcnever any spokesman or leader year of this decade. I do not want of the Government says that the to give figures because nlany floures Government would never accept can be given in this regard. Many Khalistan at any cost or no compro- such figures have been given by the mise would be made with the unity Government which w('uld also con- and integrity of the country or the firm the fact Government would not bow before the politics of violence and kiJlings, [English] these pronouncements do not create it has been the bloodiest year. any enthusiasm among the common people in Punjab and they do not [T rt1Itsitltion] feel assured. And many times .hey even ridicule and say that it is easy On the basis of figures, which I to make announcements while sitting have seen" I can say that about 2000 in New Delhi but they are witnessing innocent citizc'ftS and ahout 500 secu- the situation with their pwn eyes and rity personnel have fallen victims of that is why .ucb declarations cannot 113 Disckssion under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation in Plfnjab 114 Rule 193 create confidence among them. Some Bhai Ki Pashore Gurudwara Sahib people even go one step higher and nor I smoke cigarette and take wine. say that they do not know what I f it is a crime en the part of a KbaJistan would be, but they can Hindu' Policeman to go near the say on the basis of what t~ley are ex .. Gurudwara or to stand by its outer periencing and feeling that Khalistan wall. I a pologise to the entire Sikh certainly will not be worse than thl\, \Vor;d. If at all 1 told something Such people meet me and ask Ine DS to the Granthi Singh calling hiol out to why we don't we pay attention. from the Gurudwara it was due to They further say that if the Govern- his fault for whkh the Granthi Kul- ment cannot deal with the sjtuation want Singh and lhe Sarp:.tnc:h had why does it not admit that it is be- tendered written apologies."

yond their contro1. We think. while \ silting in Delhi. that Pre"jdent rule Now this is the advertisement pub- is there and feel satisfied that we hJve lished in the 'Punifobi Tribune'. extended it. But when we ~!O there we do not get a feel that it is '"'the rule {Translation] of our Government there. Police patrol is ~topj)ed during the night. If this is the position of the Govern- Pt;l1ple from rural areas have nligrat- ment and Police officers we can cd. You cannot inlagine tht! situation imagine. what would be the cl)ouilion which is prevailing there. of common citizens. The indus- trialists and other rich people say Mr. Deputy Sp~aker, Sir. dktatc that they always move with blank is issued by the terrorhts that ~ingin~ cheque in their pocket and in case of National Anthem sh{luld be stor- anybody kidnaps thenl they would ped and they have to st(JP it. They give blank cheque to then). It ap- ,issue dictate to Nationalised Banks nears jn the newspapers daily as to not to clear those cheques yvhkh an,' how many people have been kidnap- not written in Punja hi and clearance ped and how mlny have been killed. ('If cheques is stopl)eo for more than But how many have been set free fitteen days. They issue dicLttes after taking ranson does not appear that no Hindi bulletins shculd he jn the newspapers because they are broadcast from 'Akashwani' and the threatened by the terrorists not to broadcast of Hindi bul1etins from disclose it to the press or the police. Jalandhar and Chandigarh Radio otherwise they would be kil1ed. Few Stations are discontinued. After days back grandson of an hon. Mem- some days Hindi bulletin is again her from the other House was kid- sta:·ted again from Chandigarh and napped and released late~ on. It remains discontinued from Ialandhar. may be a matter of anguish for the This is the position of the Govern- family but the rumours going round ment. The Government has recon- remind us of the incident that took ciled to this situation. I cannot re:.!d place in December in Kashmir. I Punjabi SO J have a translated ver- do not have full information and do sion of an adv'::"rtbement. Police not want to make direct allegation. officers in Punjab are giving adver- The Central Government acted as tisements in the Newspapers. I have mediator in this case and got the a translated version of the adver- grandson of the hon. Member releas- tisement given by Shri Ashutosh. ed and ,in exchange they released a S.H.O. Lehragaga appeared in 'Pun- terrorist arrested in Uttar Pradesh. jabi Tdbune' which reads as foUows: The Government should clarify whe- ther it has played any role in it or [El1glish] not. I have said it un the basis of rumours being spread in Punjab. "I Ashutosh, S.H.O. Lehraga~a make This has become the condition of it clear that I have neither'" entered the Government and Administration tl~ Discussion under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Punjab 116 Rule 193

[She L. K. Advani] "Mr. Speaker. may be, I don't deny and now it has become clear that the this. But through this House I want real source of power is not the to caution these elements that jf they Government offices but it comes from have taken the sjgnal that we shall the barrel of AK-47 rifles. When it tolerate violence, we shall tolerate in· has become clear, it can be imagined nocent killings, lhey are mistaken." as to what would be the condition of Then he went on to emphasize that common people there in Punjatb. Terrorists issue dictates that women [ Translotlon] woulo not wear sarees, put bindi on their forehead and no school going the Government would take all the gil'lls would wear jean~. They should steps necessary in this regar~ for the wear 'qamiz and . salwar' ...... (Inter· security of the general pubhc. Now, rup!ions) 1 wou.ld appeal to the Prime Minist~r and his colleagues that nobody belI- SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Mid- eves that the problems before us such napore): Not even saiees! as, Punjab problem, Kashmir Problem SHRI L. K. ADV ANI: Some cour- and Assam problem. or the problem ageous university girls tried to resist brewing in Tamil Nadu can be solved but they had to face humiliation and only through use of force by Govern- ment. police or army. also disgrace. Things have come to. suc~ We know that the proper response f~r a a pass. All I want to emphasIze 1S such that mere declarations won't solve the situation is 110t armed pv]tce, para- problem. results should h;! visible and military force or police force. But ~l1n there should be a clear and loud all the same, I aware (If this fact message also that when the Prime Mini~ter or any other person flom the Govern- [English] ment makes a ~tatement. the state- ment has a different effect on different that this Governnlent means business. people and it ~ellds different signals. I remember when talks were going on [Transimion] for negotiations with Shri Simranjeet Singh Mann, somebody asked me Yesterday. when the Prime Minis- whether 1 was in favour of the talks ter said certain things for the first or not. I said that I was 110t against time in his speech I felt that it was the talks, Simranjeet Singh Mann has good of him that he realised the posi- been a Member of Parliament and our tion. During the course of .a discus: colleague for some time though he had sion on Tamil Nadu, my frIend Shn not attended any sitting of the House Vijay Kumar Malhotra narrated as to but he has been a Member of Parlia- how extremi9l1l came into existence ment elected by the people. Though there but Shri Malhotra mentioned he has not taken oath as a Member about Punjab as well and the meeting of Parliament. I won't say that he was of Prime Minister with Shri Simranjit not a Member of Parliament. If the Singh Mann also. While replying to Prime Minister has invited him for the debate, the Prime Minister said talks, I don't find anything objection- -1 quote from his speech: able in this matter. It is, but. natural. But when Simranjeet Singh Mann [English] comes for taUcs and during the tUb "My friend Mr. Vijay Kumar M8Il- he says that the basis of Iny opinion hotra told me that because of my is that the Sikhs should have sot dialogue and talk with Mr. Mann, special consideration in 1947. because people are getting wrong signa Is. they are a community which has been Mr. Speaker, May be, ...... " deprived by the constituent Assem- bly. Government and the people of He did not deny it. India of their rigbts for forty years. 117 Discussionunder PAUSA21,1912tSAKA) Situation in Punjab 118 Rule 193

Their rights should be restored to them I don't believe in the right of self- that is why I demand the right of determination but the Government self-determination for the Sikh Com- should think that if it is ready to dis- munity. If Hon. Prime Minister does cuss self·determination with Simranjeet not react to such views then it is a Singh Mann, and if on the similar bad signa], especially when he is pre- ground JKLF or ULF A says that they pared to talk on the issue of self-de- are ready for talks wou1d the govern.. termination with Simranjeet Singh ment refuse or have a dialogue with Mann. them. This is worth consideration that after all he is also a citizen of India [English} and how can we refuse to have a dia- logue with him? Such an attitude may SHRI PAUL R. MANTOSH (Nominated Ang1o .. Indian): Mr. not be meaningful for the country. moreover there are levels Advani has raised such an important nlany of holding a dialogue. It is not necessary matter and no important Minister is that talks should be held only at the present here. Or is Mr. Bhajan Lal level of Prime Minister. After all. representing the Government? when such i situation arises, the Gov- (Interruptions) ernment adopts &orne channels of nego- tiations. I won't oppose this idea. but (Tran sirJ'I iOn ) at the same time we should keep it in mind that we may not give legal SHRI BHAJAN LAL: I can speak shape to any wrong principle. Today more strongly than Shri Advani. if some extremist js demanding KhaHs- tan I can feel as to why there is a (InterruPtl'om) demand for Kha1i&tan. Will the Prime SHRI L. K. ADVANI: I was ex· Minister- hold discussion on this issue? pecting that ...... He said yes, he is ready. He is citizen of India, what is the harm in it? I (Interruptions) would like to make it clear that as we agreed to hold discussions on the SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA basis of 1980. if in the same manner (South Delhi): Piease stand up and say we agree to hold discussion on the that you are supporting the Govern- issue of Khalistan, the harm it may ment under compulsion. cause would be beyond imagination which may lead to the disintegration SHRI BHAJAN LAL: We are ob- of the country. eying the orders of the Deputy Spea- ker. Mr. Speaker. when this Government was formed. Shri Dandavate was in 16.00 Ius. the V. P. Singh Cabinet. and a psy .. chological framework was evolved I was saying whether it is the Prime and an opportunity was available in Minister or Shri Subodh Kant Sahay which maximum could be achieved. A or Kamal Morarka or someone work· similar wrong signal at that time made ing in the capacity of a Minister of the problem more complex and the State in the Prime Minister Secretariat result was or the people workin~ as his represen- tatives, whatever we dIscuss about pun- [English] jab, Kashmir, Assam and Tamil Nadu 1990 beclme the bloodiest year of its sipals are received by different the decade. sections of the society. We might have Simranjeet Singh Mann in view at that [Tramlation] time and so we did not Uke to say any j such thing fOr which Simranjeet Sinf:l Otherwise, prior k' that. people used may say that he had already said It. to blame the riots of 1984, the riots 119 Discussion under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Pun_;ab 120 Rule 193

[Sh. Bhajan LaI] tic means. If anyone wants to bring which took place in Delhi and Opera .. change in the country through vio- tion blue Star. But when the present lence of killings and fragmentation Govcr:1n~ent took over and started of the country, it will be met Vv ilh functioning. the situation was such stiff resistance from the people. In that arl the' people whether Hindus or this context. holding or not h0Jding Sikhs felt that the Plln jab p-oblem of elections is not imo0rtant to m~. would be solved ~Iut it W.lS not so}- In normal conditions elections must ved at all. The f eason i~ that nobody be held. Different situations arise. bothers about the way our statemrntC' Rv hoklin1! of ~lection(\ wr may say influence different people. Nobodv js that we have acted as per the prin- serious about it. What happened when ciplf's of democracy.' At the same this Government took ave:-- three' time would we be protecting the long- months ago. The secu1'"i1 y p ~! ~onnel term interrsts of the country? I am who sacrificed their Ii, es, they were well aware of the situation existing rattling at the dsk of their life, a nel irt Pun iab for the past one year. T amon? them there' might he some p~o. w0Hld Itke to trU the House that my r1r who mi~ht have comrnitten eXC"I)- 0ninion ahout the Lok Sabh~ ('lee- ses ard k i11ed inTJocent people. They 110n8 chan!!ed immediately after the might have taken advant(lge of thr rl~ctions. T supported the move for situation and nlillht have-amassed holding of elections and elections wealth also. ,,- were held. In these elections. some of my friends were elected and some On the other hand there were a num- ('\f th.~rr were defeated. One of the ber of sincere officers in thr- C.R.P.F .. friendr.. of our Party. Dr. Baldev Pra- B.S.F. and PunJab polic~. who, with- k(l~h. who stron~lv opposed trrrnri~m. out carinI! the least for their indivi. was pnpplnr in Amritsar hut he lo~t dual interec;ts. fought for the unity thr elrrtion. Later they came to me of the country and against extre. ;)nd sairl that a win could have' been mism. In the first three months the ~nnsurcd jf talks had been held earlier. security forces ignored the directiv\!s Winning the election was no problem. of the V. P. Sjngh (iovernnlent. thC'v said. and 1tradually the matter They thought it was poin~l('~~ t<, Jight hf'(,:Pl1e clear to me. My marxist 1hose who wer~ g()ing 10 come into frirnd" kept TIll" informed from diffe .. u· )wer I W(lU d like to warn this rent place~. On th~ basis nf 1hic;; in- Gp"emment ~hac past mistakes :-,houJd formation my oartv reached the con- n~)t b" repeated Ref" Irr. holdlllg taJks c1uc;;ion that the prec;ent situation in ',1 i~" any group, the Government Puniab is not conducive to the hold .. she lAlel. define I'ht~ parameters within ing of free and fair electiof)s. Elec- wrich the talks ar': to be held. \Vhy tions wilt not be held until the state C'ln't they be nlad" to condcJnn the is free of terr0rism and violence. Our kilhng of innoc~,t pet"'pJe as a C" ltl ~tand has been that elections be held dition for holding talks with them. whe'1 the Government is able to vlve Today nobody condemns the djctates ~ 1111(1rant~c to the common man that given by extremists which send down he can cast his vote without any fear. waves of terror among the people of Rut when some persons move around Punjab. These days the centre's direc- with an AK·47 and threaten the pub- tives are not followed in Puniab. There lic at gunpoint to vote in favour of are no takers of appeals made by the a particular party. the' latter either Akali Dat Prakash Singh Badal or floes not vote or docs as the terro- Gurcharan Singh Tohra. Even the rists say. So I was ao:ainst holdin~ orders of Simranjit Singh Mnnn have of the elections. No hastv decision lost importance. All are becoming ~hoNld be takon regarding holding of irrelevant. And they will remain so elections there. The decision for hold- till they understand the sentiments of ing elections should be taken only the Indian public and are prepared after taking stock of the situation to usher in change through democra- there. 121 Discussion tmder PAUSA 21~ 1912 (SAKA) Situation in Punjab 122 Rule 193

1 have some questions and I would jng been' discriminated against in tbe be glad if Shri Morarka answers them. la~t 40 years and not fulfilling the I have read a statement made by assurances given by the Britishers. Shri Subodh Kant Sahay in Chandi- Nobody is concerned with the British garh on 6th or 7th December in rule and so I shall not go into its which he said that the Government is detaiJ~. When my friend PrakaSh preparing a foolproof strategy to solve Singh Badal once said that Sikhs had tQe Punjab problem and the hone been subjected to injustice,. I told Prime Minister is going to make an hinl that I can understand certain announcement to this effect in 3-4 injustice! on Sikhs in the past 8-10 days. Though. that has not heen years but I fail to understand how announced in these 3-4 days it am they could have mistreated for as be made now while we are discussing long a period as 40 years because I the matter. Let us know what type of know that ten years back he \\ as in a strategy has been made. power and was Chief Minister of Punjab. At that time he did not have these grievances which he has SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: today. I can extend my support if a Yesterday the Prime had Minister rrmedy is sought for the atrocities gaid that it would be anaounced with- in 24 hours. on Sikhs in the past 10 years. inc1ud- ing the 1984 riots. To say that Sikhs have got step-motherly treatment ever SHRI L. K. ADVANI: It cannot since the Britishers left the' country be within 24-hours. It depends on and to say that it amounts to pre- the Governlnent, whether it \\-ants to senting a rationale for Khalistan is revca 1 the entire strategy or part of it. not correct and it win never be accep- But whatever the strategy is there. it table in this country. The Govern- should convince the comlnon nlan in ment may nlake any compromi~e but Punjab that this is not yet another it should not concede a demand for dose of empty talks. 1 am not fully Khalistan. satisfied with the situation in Kash- luir. I have always been critising the steps taken by the previous Govern- Sir. three years back when the ment regarding Kashmir. But jf we Rajiv Gandhi Government was in COnlpa,.e the situation in the two power. the Shri Rajiv Gandhi had states. i.e. Punjab and Kashmir, w~ tind summoned all Opposition leaders that conditions in Kashmir have not and he and Buta Singhji said that deteriQrated. that much as in Punjab. the Parliament b:lS passed several In fact, conditions are such that two laws and has thus given them the lakh persons have migrated from the power to face terrorism by those sJate .to other places in the country. Jaws. All these laws becomes useless, If there is no perceptible manifest as the terrorists. after committing difference in the Punjab situation we heinous crimes, cross over to !he other may face even bigger crisis than the side of the border and seek refuge onc in Kashmir froln where two 1ath there. Despite regular seizures of perSOl'lS of a single community have large cache of arms and ammunition mfgrated elsewhere. I warn in this re- and arrest of hardcore terrorists. the gard and would like to say that Govern- supply of arms to militant llutfitB ment should not involve those persons continue uninterruptedly, as Pakistan or grous in the political mainstream is steadfastly sticking to its policy of wbo, do not accord full recognition aiding and abetting such nefarious to the Constitution of India. The se- activities. Not only this. these ter- Qond point is regarding the killing of Jorists are provided with financial innocent citizens. Theil' intention of assisfance as wen.. Moreover, the, br.g change through terrorism. arc also imparted terrorist trainina at ncy do not want to condemn the th~ ¥~ rious camps based in Pakistan. violeQCC. ThOY always talk of bav· This is a fact, tbere is no inaccuracy ;-. USlND/91 T23 . Di.geusS;OIl "nder JANUARY 11 ~ 1991 SituatiDn in Pl!».;eb 124 Rule 191

[Shri L. K. Advani] other option. because the. state' (Jo· in it. it is true even today. If our vemment was in the hands of a poli-- Prime Minister receives a telophone tical party which had difference of call from his Pakistani counterpart. he opinion with the Centra) (iovenlment. begins fa think that it is a harbinger At first. it was said that it would be of a new chapter in Indo"plak rela .. neces~ary to amend the constitution. tion.~. I am well aware of the extent but our dear friend Prof. M'ldhu to which we have moved tQwards Dandavate informed the Government normalising our relationship. This that there was no need to do so. as call be made out from the Pakistani the Parliament itself can pass a law. involvement in Punjab and Ka..lihmit. jf the Ra jya Sabba or the Council of There cannot be any other yardstick States. which consists of representa- to measure the level of our friendship. tives from an the States. rasses a Passionate speeches and sweet tele- motion with two-thirds majority, pbonic conversations can never be a under Article 249 and as such there yardstick. It is not proper to eva- was no difficulty in passing such a luate billteral relationships on the Jaw. At that time, I was a member ba.lJis of warm handshakes and hearty of the Rajya Sa

\\cJl as mf party's stand is that des- fencing the bordt!ts. began in 1987, pito the serious implications of the during the tenure of the Rajiv Gandbi creation of a security belt, it is very government. Last year. Shri Subodh much e8Beotial to take sucb strong Kant Sabay had stated that the work Mops. keeping in mind the gnl\'ity of of fencing is in progress and that all the prevailing situation. We firm Iy efforts wou Id be nlade to expedite tbe boUovc that we cannot nlove towards work. At that time also. Shri Sahay a solutio!". to these veMd pro bletm, was the Minister of State in the Minis- unless aDd until we adopt such strin- try of Home Affairs and even today, gent nleasures. Howcver~ w.;; do ack- h~ is holding the sanle office, despite nowledge that the adoption of such the change in the governml!nt. There- strong steps jl) not a remedy ill itself. fore. J was a bit astonished, when I At one stag\!. J ca11l~ aCl"OSS the sug- heard that (Interruptions). gestion of one of our forelll0st Defence Analysb. K. Subramaniam. of the [Eng!i\h] ] nstitllte at Strategic Studie~. In one of his article~ on the Punjab ~jtuation. It ~o huppen~ that the ~ame Minis- he had stated that. T~r i~ th\!re. [English] [Translation] There ~celn~ to be no other ~olu­ tion excepting mining the bordeJ. SHRI SHOPAT SINGH MAKK- ASAR

[Sh. L. K. Advani] cordial relationship between the two However. the steps it takes to solve communities, which has instilled a the Punjab problems would be one ot confidence in our minds that if the the major yardsticks. to measure the Government pursues the right poli- performance of the Oovemment. cies, then there -can be no reason. Therefore. it is necessary to under- as to why the Punjab problem cannot stand that be solved. It is neither a difficwt. nor an impossible task, provided the [English] Government has a clear perspective of the problem. The second point, people are on the brink there. on which I have been continuouslY [Translation] ~riticizing the Government is that whenever we decide to cure such It is indeed a terrible situation. deep-rooted diseases, then Here large number of people. including businessmen and industrialists come [English] to us and ask us whether how it is possible to work there under the pre- you cannot be changing remedies sent circumstances. Gradually, they every two months. are fieeing the rural areas and are [Trans'lation] moving towards towns and citit-s. In the past few days, the terrorists have It j~ not prudent to change reme- devised a strategy. under which peo.. dies every two months. Whenever you pIe are killed on a selective basis, in take decisions~ you have two cptions both the rural and urban areas. The before you, one is adopting a terror and fear that has crept into &oft line, other is adoptinS a hard line. the minds of the people ever ~ince the both have their positive and nega- horrendous and inhuman crime that tive aspects and both have their took place in Ludhiana, two-three plus and minus points, but if you days back. is an indicator in this have decided that, under the present direction. The Ludhiana incident ap- circumstances, your primary duty and pears to be part of that strategy. your main objective is to instill a sense of security in the minds of the Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, as per common people of Punjab, as the the information I possess, Pakistan bon. Prime Minister said yesterday, has advised the terrorist leaders to then. ~electively kin only the Hindus and not the Sikhs, as against their earlier [English] I\trategy. under which they killed people. at l\:lndom. irrespective of There is no soft option rather we their relIgious affiliation. This have only hard option. counselor direction or instruction or whatever you may call it bas been [T rallslat;on] given to the terrorist leaders and that is what the ultras have been Hard options are not pursued for doing over the past two-three months. a temporary period, ~ay one or two Their main objective is ~o instigate months, rather they are pursued with Hindu .. Sikh riots. Their strategy is that perseverance and consistency. By when Hindus are killed .. they would this. I don't mean that we should retaliate, then and there itself. I commit excesses to achieve an ob- would like to praise and congratulate jective. but to put the whole pro- the people of Punjab~ who have not cess into reverse gear, the moment only faced this situation QOurageously a stray incident takes place is iB- over .the last ten year$" ~ have also deed not a Wise act. With this ~ub­ mamt.ined the cordial all" fraternal mission. I expect the Government to "'~P!l that bas existed. bet- present its propo5ed action plan, to- _ ... Hindus and Sikhs. It is this day itself. Thank y,ru. i~ t (,'\ \ , 129 Discussion under P/\USA 2J, 1912 (SAKA) Situation il1 Punjab 130 Rule 193

SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Mr. De- ken stern step In the very begilming puty Speaker, Sir, Shri Advaniji has all this would not have happened. presented all the points relating to Actually extl'emists have now be- Punjab problem in a very unambi- come so daring in Punjab that there guous way. You are aware of the is virtually no Government there. 1 fact that the situation in Punjab is am not at a 11 hesitant to say that the very bad. Shri Advani did not say sjtuation has worsened to such an anything precisely regarding the cau- l:!xtent that their word is the rule ses of deterioration of situation in there. the State. The situation in Punjab has worsened during the eleven SHRfMATI SUBHASHINI ALI month rule of Shri V.P. Singh Gov- (Kanpur): What IS the situation m ernment which had the support of l-f:l ry ana? Shri Advaniji's Party. (/fJlerruptions) SHRI BHAJ AN LAL: It is tht' AN HON. MEMBER: What same in Haryana. (/11 I erruptivtls) about during your regime'! You have come from Faridabad yes· terday so you must be knowing bet- SHRI BHAJAN LAL: I will come ter. (l nl frruptions) to that also. But first let me talk about the position during these el",- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER .. ven months. lEE: After aJ) he is YOUl friend. (I nlerrupllvns) SHRI MADAN LAL KHU- RANA: What about Bhindarwale? SHR r BH!\J AN LAL: He will continue for a long lime like you. SHRI BHAJAN LAL: T \'vill talk He h yet to compkte even tw( I about him also? I will make refe- months. (lnterruptiolls) rence of aJI those about whon1 you wan t me to make. I can make refe- AN HON. ME1vlBER: ~a' Ldabad rence of you <-lIsa. Mr. Deputy Spea- js your constituency. ker. Sir, it is difficult to imagine as to how daring extremists had be- SHRI OHAJAN LAL: Ye&. it is come during the eleven month ruk my constituency. You yourself have of Shri V.P. Singh. Whether it is ~een everything th(re. Just now Ad· Jammu and Kashmir or Punjab sitUb- \ aniji ha~ said that the situation in tion bas deteriorated so such &0 that Punjab during the last ten years hab the extremists even dared to kidnap worsened. Advaniji. the situatioD the daughter of the Home Minister in Punjab has worsl.:ncu not during and five extremists had to be releas .. the pa~t ten years but during the ed to get her released from their last fourteen year!), you have for· hands. I do not dlfferentiate between gotten 4 years. ] n other words tht' Home Minister's daughter and my situation started deteriorating from own daughter and for that matter ] 977. They are now ta lking of sec- wnether it is the daughter of any essionism in Punjab. The Sikhs now jl,10. Member or the daught~r of any talk of self determination. The seeds orolnary citizt=n all are equal and we of secessionism were sown way back have due regards for her. But with in 1977 when the Anandpur Sabeb the release of five extremists in ex- Reso1ution W8" included in the EJec- change of one daughter. the extre- tion ManifeslO of the Akalis. That mists ha:tve become very daring. Kid· Anandpur Saheb Resolution was nappings and killings have been go- supported by Advanjji and Vaj- ing on in Punjab for a quite long time payeeji. They went to Punjab and and those killed or ktdnapped are made speecbes advocating the forma- also the Bons or the daughters of tion of Akali Dal Government ill somobody_ Had the Goyornment 18- Punjab. 131 Di..{'ct4ssioll wuler JANtr/ARY II, J99t SilWllioll ill PfIII,jab 132 Rule 193

[E",Ush] thing happened before you. In Pun· jab eJection~ were fought over Anand- SHRI LAL KRISHNA AOVANl: pu t Saheb Resolution. You peop;le J am on a point of personal expla .. had gone dlCir to extend your sup- nation. Shri Bhajan La] should not port. You had formed Governmeat better than that ..... in Punjab in coalition with Akalia. AU' these things arc in record. [TrQft.sialion] There had never been any difference SHRI MADAl LAL KHURA· of opinion among th~ leaders of Bba- NA: At that thue you were the Chief ratiya Janata Party or Jansangh Ov~r Minihtcr of J an~tta Oul C'lOvcfnment. Anundpur Saheb Tl!so]ution. They cat\!goricully opposed this resolution. SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Why do You can say this thing about other you want to dcnv the truth which parties. but as far as Jansangh or i~ known to everVolle. If it i~ '" rong Bharatiya Janata Party is concerned that you had no allian('c with th~ we :dways had a t:kar cut view about Government. d() speak out. (hue,.· Anandpur Sahcb resolution and rupliof1,\') Bhindarw~ lao (( IlllerrufJliollS} SHRJ RAJENDRA AGNIHOTRI SHRI SHOP AT SJNGH MAK- (J hansi}: What Wct~ your position at KASAR: TOI:Y have been creating. that time. difference ~twcen Hindu~ and Sikhs. (Intl'ruptlons) SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Let me leU you your position fir~t. Ever since SHRI BHAJAN LAL: I would 1968 I hu\ c been a Member ejther of like to ask Advaniii whether he wa~ Legj~lath/\: A~'iembly or Lok Sabha. a partns;r til tile Aka ij DdJ Govern- You kindly listen to me first. (In- ment or nut'! Govt!rnrnent was form- 'n'ruptiOtts) (xi by Aka1is in Punjab. They wen majority by including th~ An~nd­ MR. DEPlJI"V SPEAKER: Bhct· pur Saheb Resolution in their manI- jan LaJjj you n~l!d not reply to th~ festo. At that time you people had question" put forth by any Member. tormed coalition Govem,ment. (I",. terru,mon.\ ) 11111 errupf;o/l \.

SHRI tAL KR1SHNA ADVANI. stiR] BHAJAN LAL. If they are qu~stiont.., Thut was fonned und~r a common putting to mt! how can I programme and Anandpur Saheb rt:- refrain f1 (..'lin answ(ring them. (In- l~rrllption,\') sottJti~)n was not included in that. 1 have seen him for the tirst time in this house today and be j~ asking me about my position at SHRI BHAJAN LAL: You wele that time ...... parOler in th~ Ministry. How can you deny that? (I II lI.:rrupt j()IlS) MR. DEPtJ1 Y SPEAKER: You SHRI LAL KRISHNA ADVAN1: "peak on Punjab and say what you The Janata Party and the Akali Dal wa11t to say. had separate manifestoes. A com· mon prugramme was chalked oUt SHRl BHAJAN LAL: We have before f( Inling the coalition Govern- not interrupted aayone and we have ment. Anandpur Resolution was not not said anything wrong but _hat I ind.n.:ied m it. (bllel "lIpfion~) mean to say is that they should not interrupt us. SHRI BHAJAN tAL: Advaniji. you kllO\\' better th~\n me. I am SHRI JAOPAL SINGH (Harid- younger to you in age also. Every. war) : When Advani;i was ~1rinJ 133 Di~cu.y.don unOt'f PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situullon in PUnjab 134 Rule 193

[Sb. Ja#J'!l Smlh] country. A few days back they forc· nobody interrupted him. Now when ed the persons belonging to one com- he is hpeaking. why are you interru- munity to get down from the bus near ptiBJ him. (lnterruptions) Gill and Dhillon village of Ludhiana district and gunned down them on the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; You road in order to disturb the peaceful please take your seat. J.tmo"phere of this country and create <'1130'1 and confusion. They are kill- CHOWDHAR Y RAM PRAKASH IT'Ll.: the Hindus tl'crc in Older to instj- (Am baLl): An the,e problems have gate the people in other States to kill been created by the Akalis ana you sikhc;. In this way the countryt~ situa- and you are solelv r ~', por.c,ihle fOl it. tion mly deteriorate further. Sucb 1\ the present situation of Punjab. To SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Ram Pra- control this ...... ka.~hjj. i, does :not matter. You please take your seat. SHRI RAJENDRA AGNI-

HOTRI: Mr. Speaker9 Sir, it would MR. t)EPUTY SPEAKER: You be better if he uses the word 'Non- please take your seat. You are also "ikh~ instead of Hindu. disturbing him. Bhaian Lalji TOU need not answer to any interruption. SHRI BHAJAN LAL: It dues What you have to say, you say direct- not make any difference. The pre- ly. sent Government of Shri Chandra Shekhar has offered to have dialogue SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Mr. ne- with the militants. We welcome this rHlty Speaker. Sir. the situation in l)ffer but that should be held within Punjab has deteriorated to such an the frame-work of the constitution. extent that life has become difficult This country win crumble down if for the common man. Ex tremiSfS any talk is held outside the frame- :.tre prevailing over there. They even work of constitution. Whenever we go to the extent of dictating the om- made offer of talk, they construed it cers to clear such and such file by dS our weakness. Thinking that the evening. Even higher officers can. Government has surrendered before not dare to disobey them. If they them. Therefore. I am of the view onler that Hindi or English name that thi~ problem can be solved only plate outside the room of an officer by taking ~tern action. We wish that ~bquld be replaced within an hour by this i~C)ue is solved through dia]ogue. the one in Punjl\bi and no other Jan .. Rut problem is that no one in Punjab guage should be used. the order is cares for it. No one is there to have complied forthwith. As me~tioned a talk with the Government. Neither by Advaniji the clothes of the girl~ Shri Badal nor Shri Tohra nor any #(ling to schools. college~ and uni- AkaIi p:uty has an authority to have versity are forcibly tom. You would a ta1k with the Government. And have heard the recent tUli\e of Ludhi- even Sbri Simranjit Singh Mann has Rmt Tncident of kitln't"ping ,ae tlking nQ authority to bold talk with Go- pface in an parte; of Punia~ and they vernment. The Statements of two dema nd five to twenty lakh rupees as three groups often appear in the press ran~om. Not only tbat, recently you thilt they do not autQorise him for might have observed their approach. holding talks with Government. He They at the instance of anotber coon .. often tlll."S of amending the constftu- try are 1ciJling the members of a don. Wt; do not support this and particular community i.e. Hindu. our leader.. Shri Rajiv Gandhi had They force them to get down 'roln made it clear that w~ shall Itot tap- the bU8tw and sboot them. They are ~rt if there is any proposal to -mead dotal" 10 to create the ._oaphert. of the Article 51 of the Cboatitutktu. coefUtiofr and chaos aU ovet the tf it • clUtftpd the eonntry" tJe 135 Discussion under JANUARY) 1, 1991 SitUQ cion in Punjab 136 Rh/e 193 iSh. Bhajan Lal] deal with them etc. The poople bave now fed up with such talks. Punjab weakened. fo drive out the ghost o~ has been burnt completely and the which Khalistan is haunting their people have been ruined there. It is minds is the only solution to this our duty as we are the elected publi<:- problem. I had said it five years ago representatives to save Punjab. This Rnd today I am repeating it in the is not a minor issue, but it is a very House that the unification of the three serious issue will this country survive states i.e Punjab, Haryana and Hi- if Punjab is seceded? What will be machal Pradesh is the only solution the fate of the country and common to this issue. However, the propo~ed man? ~tate may be named as Maha Punjab. SHRI OHAND RAM {Hardoi): Bhajan Lalji had supported the crea- Today, the Jawans and officers of tion of Haryana but now we can never Army. C.R P.F. and B.S.F. are attac .. support the unification of Punjab and ked there. Earlier the common men Haryan,i. were the t1rget but now the Army and C.R.P.F. personnel are killed by SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Choud- laying ambush by militants. The hary Chand Ramji. We both had present serious situation compel us to supported the creation of Haryana. think deeply. Wlien things go out of We both wanted to have a separate control a sngge<;tion is given that to Haryana. Things have not changed handle the sitnation army should be much .. .(lnterruption9) I am just mak- dep10yed but then the hOD. Members Ing a suggestion. We still want a hegjn to say that the Army is not seplT4te Haryana. But I am giving needed there. Then how the situation this suggestion in country's interest would be brought under control? and to prnte"t the integrity of the What would you do? What is the country. If we are able to drive the remedy after all? The extremists are ghQSt of Khalistan out of their minds equiryped with hetter sophisticated if we are able to take this bold step weapons there than our police. No of unification of these states then they one's sister\ or daughter's honour is will stop talking of Khalistan. This ~afe there. Terrorists comes to VIl- problem has no other solution. lages in the evening and ask the Whenever some officers or the Judges villagers that they would dine tonight of High Court sit together and dis· with them. arranee chicken and whis- cuss this issue they say that Khali- key for the-m and after that they stan win be created one day or the fOidbly sl,are beds with the villager's other. With the unification of Pun- ~;ster and d~ughters whom they like iab. Haryana and Himachal Pradesh moc;t. All these things appear in their population will come down to the press? Go to Puniab and see this 18 per cent. Then no one will talk of agonising situation. The stem steps KhaHstan even for generations to are needed to be taken to deal with come. So we should be ready to such situRtion. But whenever Sbri sacrifice for the cause of National Raiiv Gandhi's Government took cer- unity. This issue can be solved if tain stern action in this regard many Maha:Punjab is created by merging hon. Members who are not present Harva n.l and Himachal Pradesh with tbis time in the House began to cry Punjab. This proposg1 should be that the Government are takiDg v~ considered seriously. In my opinion stem measures it should rather balm this is the only solution to this pro- the wounds. By applying balm you blem and another one is to deal with cannot treat this disease. We are ID them sternly. I do not understand as favour of a1>plying balnt but it Is how. long you would continue to say useless in the present situation. Tho to the people that Government is tak- situation cannot be brought under , ing such and such action, that Go- control unl .. the ~tromiats ate cSoalt vernment has now made a plaD to with lternly. What t)'Pe of a~o•• 137 Discussion .,de, PAU'SA 21, 1.12 (S8J(A) SitUlltioft ;" PJIIf}ab Rule 193 «.

[Sh~ Bhajan Lal] House" who are least col¥*'8l4 .. ( this issue. Deputy Minister is ~re· pbere is prevailing in Punjab todayf/ sent her~ and we know his poaiPoD In Chandigarh which is a union ter .. ill the Government. How can 1biJ rltorr the Director of tIlo AU India jgue be tackled by Morarkaji who bAa Radio was aslusinatM~,_\4e extre- been inducted into the Gove.nlGent a mists. They also threat.- ifhe staff few days ago? Why are you Wild.. of that station of ill consequences if your time? the transmission in Hindi continued. How will this country run if the tarns- mission in Hindi is forcibly stopped [Englilh] from Chandigarh or Jalandhar? In such circumstances all the aspects THE MINISTER OF STATE IN should be considered seriously. The THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICB extremists ask the pressmen to write (SHRI KAMAL MORARKA): them as KluJrkhoo which means a Sir, on behalf of the Government. I patriot and martyr. Do pressmen take strong exception. I have been have a courage to disobey them? doing this for qwte some ti.m,e now. I When the Government under their take strong exception to thi,. Mr. pressure have stopped Hindi-trans- Shopat Singh cannot decid~ who will mission on Radio from there? H

, . gled from Pakistan. They can break upon the fence and sneak in. ).J1 Hon. Members in the Houso .ow' that whoever speaks here on As such. a two kilometro wide belt ~alf the Gove1'l1ment. it is not his should be con8~ted there. Arra11lc- indi\tiduaI 'View, but he expresses the ment of floodlights should also be views of the Government. As such, made so that even if very minute it is not proper to say that he speaks particle lying there could be detected or anybody else speaks ...(/NerTUP . easily. Then you can say that the tiom).. ' ... Seriousness does Dot de.. border has been sealed. If the bor- pend on a particular Member but it der is sealed by fencing. it will serve d,pends on the Government. As no purpose. !ucb,. please abstain from raising such ~levant questions. I Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one thing Shri Advani has said that the Go· -SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Mr. De- vernment was unable to control 1984 puty'Speaker, Sir, once Rajiv Gandhi's, riots. Was the Government unsucess- Government had decided to seal the ful? At that time the situation in bOrne of my friends wealth of the State is boins drained know the meaning of 'khadku'. No out and is being invested in other reUaious meanin~ is attached to it. States. PuDjab ptOduces II stnplus of The wow 'kbadku stands for fearless 450 crore to_, 01 ~1ftUJ ,wi* but some pegple use it ror militant t.' ,ta\llt that 4t. ~ns at • tow prb.' 147 D~cUUiDIJ IIIlIIIr Rt;dII9J~ . JANUARY. 1.1; 1991 Situation. in.htJjtJb. 148

[Sh. Kirpal Singh] Panthi. Why the \tIC of Punjabi laD· Qn the demand of the people of guage was not enforced earlier. 40 per P~njab. foundation stone of a paper cent of ~ple in Haryana are Pun· mill was laid by Shri Rajiv Gandhi jabi speaking and so far as my know- at Goindwal, but the same has not ledge goes, Shri Bhajan Lal himself come up as yet. If eucalyptus grown is Punjabi by origin. Why then was in Punjab is used there. economic Punjabi not given the status of second condition of the State could inlprove. language in Haryana during the Chief Besides. it will provide employment Ministership of Shri Bhajan La!. to the unemployed people from rural Shri Devi Lalor any other Chief areas in the State itself thereby im- Minister belonging to the Congress proving their economic lot. Party? Why did not they think: in Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. it is not this direction? Simply because it did a history that when the same AkaHs not serve their interests. otherwise fought the war of independence and what is special about Telugu and the war to liberate Gurudwaras and Tamil. They want their animosity won at two fronts 'Guru kn Bagb' towards Punjabi to continue. Let us and 'Chabi ka . Morcha', Mahatma take the quantum of aid that is given Gandhi had sent a telegram saying to Punjab for different works. If you that we had won the first war of in .. wan t I can give the figures for record dependence? Mahamana Malviya ji sake. This is nothing new which had said at that time that every needs emphasis and t 1 think, he Hindu should give one of his sons has unnecessarily created heat over to the Panth to become a Sikh. It is this issue. The demands which the from there that thi:,.; story of sacrifices people of Punjab have raised are not began. They used to carry kripan new. It is not me who demand a with 3 feet Joog blade. British De- separate State. It was Pandit Jawa- puty Superintendents of Police used harIa1 Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi to torture them, but they never took who had promised before indepen- the kripans out of the sheath. The dence that Sikhs would be given a world was moved by the limit of land so that they could feel that they their tolerance. Mahatma Gandhi and ha"e a honle I)f their own. But he before him Mahatma Buddha and says that their majnrity should be neu- Mahavir Jain taught us non-violence. tralised by reorganising Punjab so If there has been any community who that the majority community of this practised tolerance despite being brave country could dominate thenl. That and strong, it were the Sikhs of Pun .. is why I say that this is the genesis jab. They have been praised by one of the problem. If you could see and all. Shri Advani has said that the assassination of Indira Gandhi in I bloodbath has been going' on in the the back drop of Operation Bluestal'. State for the last ten years. The rela- you will find that it has been over tions between Hindus and Sikhs con- played and over-stretched. It was tinue to be cordial as ever both in at her instance that mortars fired cities and villages. They shall one shells on Aka! Takht and Durbar another's grief and happiness. If Pun- Sahib where we pay obeisance daily. jabi language is implemented by the We deem our lives from there and orders of some people whom you call its holy water is the guarantee of our 'khadku'-thougb they should not be soul. called by this name-what is wrong with those orders? If at all somebody Golden Temple is a sacred place. is to be blamed for this, it is the What happened when the person who B'.J:P: men who gave slOgan and ob- ordered attack on this sacred place fa served 'Iatyagraha* apinst. Punjabi assassinated. Lot of hue and cry ".. beirig ~11Iht .as a c:omp~~ory Sllbj~t. raised and thereafter the son saM There lis the origm of the problem. when a.. bis. tree faDs the ground 1)e. TOday l-tJIe'j enfQrCC ~ qse ~ Pun .. neath, it I~S •• He wont round placet jabf laqutge. they are termed as SIkh and played with tile sentiments of the , 149 Diicu8slon under Bule 193 PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation ilt Punjab lsb people. Thousands of people were details. Now when he came to po,¥.er. massacred. Many eminent people who 1 am reminded of an Urdu Couplet were not Sik hs-was Shri Tarkunde a silCh? was Justice Sikri who was Chief "Ki Buland hour Bhi Admi justice, a sikh; was Mishra ji, a sikh --commented on that. Nobody dared Abhi khwahishon ka Gulam'·. to say anything. not even VP Singh's Government. There was 0111y one Yesterday when he gave a speech at ~ person who had the guts to say it the Gurudwara I realized that the openly in our favour and we will al- embers are stiIl within him and the ways remain obliged to him. He was scene of 1984 riots was in front of his Shri Chandrashekhar who raised his eyes. We had seen bodies with burnt voice. I was in Delhi at that time. tyres around their necks. God knows It was Shri Chandrashckhar who sav- whether Rajiv ji went round taking ed me and took me safely to the air- off those burnt tyres or lighting them. port. I am obliged to him. He is a .••...... •..(l"/e771Il'ti£'IaS) ....•....•.• dedicated person and has waited pati- ently. We have high regard for him SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Sir. I but unfortunately in this country have a point of order. To say that when a person is too much dedicated Rajiv Gandhi was instrumental in get- and does penance (Tapasya) the thro- ting the people mal)sacred. is not true. ne of Lord Indra Shakes. Similarly I t should be expunged from the pro- when Jayaprakash Narayan took up ceedings. GujaraI Sahib is sitting there cudgels with authority Indiraji's throne please make your neighbours under- shook. What happened thereafter. stand. . ..(Interruptions) He was jailed and because of neglect his health deteriorated and lie passed [English] away. After completing his education Chandrashekhar ii was influenced by MR. SPEAKER: You have rebut- Acharyaji and when we attained free- ted it. You have said that it is not dom he joined the group of those correct. politicians wbout whom Sahir Lud- hianvi wrote "Naya Libas mein Nikla [Translation] hai Rahzani ka J aloos·'. But he was there for a very little time. He came SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: You were back to Acbaryaji. He was with us the first person to have floated that in 1975 and now he is in the treasury idea of massacre. Rajiv ji helped in benches. When the throne of Indira that. Many sikhs were murdered and shook he sent a fairy-Menaka- ·to disgraced. Some of them were mili- allure Vishwamitra. tary officers and some were ch'iUan officers. This was done at your be· [English] hest. You have pJayed the ~ame and are now sitting back. AdvaniJi has also MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please mentioned that thing now. I can say come to the point. There are many who created sant J am ail Singb to other Members who want to speak. liquidate the Akalis? When arms were being piled up in the golden temple [TrarlsloJ ion J the then Inspector General of Police who is the husband of an hon. lady We do not have time for Vishwa· Member of this House--I think she mitra or Menaka. is not present at the moment--said that they were not authorised by the [Trtln81tJtionl centre to conduct search in the golden temple. Who was to authorize? Was SHRI ICIRP AL SINGH: I honour it Indiraji who had the final sa1 fa . ~ orders. If Wet do not bava time 'the matter? So it an happened _ for that I would not go mtQ furchot their~. Itt taft JarDai1 ...... I ~! ~lSIion ,IIIder ~ 198 JANUAJIlY}' 1, 1991. SltNtltiOl1 in Puttj4b. 1.$2

,[Sh. Kirpal Sinlft] be improved~ if we try to let us Dot was proud of himself. He bad gone open the old chapter as it may be to fight the Akalis and break them deteriorate the ~ituation. That would but he started fighting the Govern- not be gcod. 1 am not restricting ment when he saw Government ex- you from speakilll you may speak cesse~. 1ben artillery were sent to whatever you wwrt but bear it mind destroy the temple compJex. It is tlJat if you dig the past. the situa- saUl that Beant Singh and Satwant tion in Punjab ma~' worsen iIlfitead Singh who were protectors of Indiraji, of improving. You should not raise they assassinated her and no ('.rime is questions which may lead to contro- as heinous as this. Were you not the vt:r~ies. protec.tm of this country when thou- sands of people were massacred. Was SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: Sir, I Indira ji's blood was blood and the agree with you cent per cent but who others was iust water. Today Beant is responsible f\)r digging the past here Sin~h and Satwant Singh are treated in the H<')U5C. What should I tell as heroes in Punjab. They knew how them? Umranangal was killed because he had deseerated the Du~bar Sahib. The [English] sentiments of the people have been hurt. I fully agree with that, whether MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please speak on the present situation you agree or not fact is fact. in Punjab. not on historical facts. SHRI BHMAN LAL: Mr. Deputy S.~er, Sir. he has again uttered a fTrollsiotionJ slmtlar words. He has said that those SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: I would who assassinated Indira Gandhi are iike to say that no religious minded heroes of Punjab. Can ther\! be a person would ever approve of the worse thing than this. You ere also blo0dshcd of innocent people in Pun- 1i~ing. This is on record. He has jab rather he win condemn it. Yes- said it. You can go through t11e re. terday ~omething was said about cord. He is saying that both of them Shri Mann. He has condemned the have hecome heroes. Didn't he say incident which occurred in Ludhiana that. . ..(llJle"uptions) yesterday and earlier also. This has been reported in the newspapers also. SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: Whatever Everybody condemns it, Simply at- I have said is a fact. The people of tributing things to somebody IS not Punjab treat them as heroes. That is ~ood. I had gone into the history a fact. of the case. SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA (1\1a- [English] dhubani): How long will he take to give vent 10 his feeling .... (1"terrup- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Prease. tlbns). I t is the time to speak on the preSI!nt 5ituBtion. It js not lime for IlJlltory. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Bbogendr8 Jha. please resume your [Trc.117s1ation] seat. SHRI KlRPAL SINGH: Sir. 1 am carryin$ out your orders and try- SHitI BHAJAN LAL: He said ing to give an explanation otherwist: tbey have become b~ro. That is on I did not want. record. SHRI KAMAL CHAtUDHlty M~ DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kif .. (Hoshiarpur): Just now you were .Pll1!JSji &lay I 1'emind you that "raising Sbri Mann.. Do you .also ~y ~ cljs~8Stjq the .plesat support kbaUstan '1ll0~ ..... -(Ie. .. 4. Punjae ancI ]low it'-an fhniplbJi).' . 'C \ ., ' 153 Discussion under Rule 193 PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation In Punjab 154

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please jab or there is peace in the State is not do not interrupt. I win give you an good. Advaniji said that some peo- opportunity. ple had contacted him and they want· ed that they could make Baldev Pra· SHRi KIRPAL SINGH: Yes· kash win the electi()n~. I have won terday only he said that he condemns from there bu\ neither anybody came the incidents at Ludhiana. Advaniji to me nor I went to anybody. I catego- says tbat we shou1d not hold dia- rically spoke about my stand-I will logue with these elements but I would never support the move of separating like to point out that LaI Danga, Jea· from India nor will I allow the dis .. der of the Mizo National Army was grace of Patna Sahib and Hamor anowed to stay in Delhi at Govern- Sahib.. But in 1985 elections you ment ex.pense for full one year. Was appealed to the entire Sikh com- that justified? Do you have different munity. Posters were issued poison- yardsticks? There is discrimination. ing the minds of the people. I said I agree with Shri Chandra Shekhar. If ( am ready to die for the cause. somebody demands KhaIistan and Chandra Shekarji does not listen to MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kir- him, it is alright whether there can pal Singbji you have taken 2S·30 be a compromise or not. is a diffe- minutes. rent matter. When Riberio was given the responsibility we asked him that SHRI KJRPAL SINGH: No Sir. he used to say that there were only Please delete the time of interrup- 8 handful of terrorists -not over t tions. I have never interrupted any- 50--to be liquidated but he has. al. body. neady liquidated over 200. How is that the number ha() swelled. When MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sir the other bureaucrats were asked to those who have disgraced Sikh re· solve the problem through negotia- Jigion. they proudly say that we have tion they replied that the recruitment done it. of terrorists i5 being done on a large· scale. The Chandra Shekar Gov- "Sun to Sohi Jahon Mei" Tera ernment has also said that they should hai Fasano kyo kahte hain Tujko be liquidated. Alright if they wish khulke khuda Gahana Kyti' to do it let them do it. What is the result of those policies which have YOu have not gone through the his- been adopted so far. The security tory. Chandra Shekarji is aware of belt which is going to be created will it. He has read the Sikh history from displace many people. Will they page to page during the 18 months remain peaceful? They will not be· when he was in Jail. The entire cause they have been uprooted and Sikh community is highly obliged to displaced by the Government. If him for this. they wtlnt that a dialogue should be held, even that move is opposed. The Government wants that unless they At least there was a courageous agree. accept the constitution. sur- person at that time who raised his render arms join the mainstream. or voice and said that it was bad. At ask for forgiveness no dialogue should the outset I said that it was because be opened with them. I also want ('f Q1andra Shckharji that I was them to ask far forgiveness surrender saved. Otherwise I would also have arms. and join the 'mainstream but if been burnt to death with a tyre they do not what can we do. The other around my neck. This goes to his methods that the Government bas ~"redit. Why are you pulling his suggested. are they new. They are legs. Yesterday he spoke at the Gu- DOt. These methods have already rudwata and appealed to the people been tried and tested. To say that of Punjab in the same way . as he elections should not be held in Pun- did earlier.. I pray to God' that hi. 11-6 LSS/ND/'! ISS Discussion under Rule 193 JANUARY 11, 1991 Resolution Re. 156 -Situation in Punjab Gulf Crisis

[She Kirpal Singh] regard, I would say that Shri V.P. Singh could also avail such op- appeal may work lest he yields un- portunity but he did not and later der Congress pressure. on he regretted for not holding elec- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No tions in Punjab. Therefore, I would please conclude. say that they may also not repent lateron. I think he has also got SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: Mr. De- opportunity to bring the misguided puty Speakert while concluding Sir, youth to the national mainstream and I would like to say that democratic talk to them uncGnditionally. I am rights should be restored immediately grateful to you. Sir, for giving me in Punjab. I mean to say 'that elec- opportunity to speak. tions should be held there. A dia- logue should be opened with those elements at any cost whether they ask for forgiveness. abide by the 17.21 brs. Constitution. surrender their arms RESOLUTION RE. GULF CRISIS or not. They should be assured pro- [English] tection and called for a dialogue. If the dialogue fails. things will remain THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRl as they are. but at least we would CHANDRA SHEKHAR): Mr. De- be satisfied that efforts have been puty Speaker. Sir, I have a request made. Are you not making efforts in to make. We are going to discuss this direction in so far as other areas the Gulf crisis. But if the House so are concerned. If so. why not in agrce~ the Resolution on Gulf Cri- Punjab? At least efforts should be sis which has been accepted by all made there. Parties should be moved from you so Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. one of that it is released to the Press earlier. my friends says that some Sikhs have reached in foothill areas also. In I shall request the Chair to move this regard I would say that these the Resolution and get it passed by Sikhs have made the land cultivable the House. We can discuss the Gulf with their hard labour and made crisis afterwards. other sacrifices to get themselves settled there. and now these people PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE have started opposing them. Some (Rajapur): The Draft is accepted by people say that Sikhs have reached all the leaders of various Parties. in Bihar and West Bengal so I would The Chair may move it. like to ask them whether they would send them tlut of these States? Is SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGA. it your patriotism? Can you solve LAM (Sa)em): The Chair may move this problem on the basis of such it. We will accept it. patriotism? Only some broad mind- ed and large hearted persons can ~ solve that problem. I think a person MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I like Shri Olandra Shekhar can do think. we will adjourn this discus- that and you people are pulling sion on Punjab. chains in his feet. I have yet to say many things but it is my duty to SHRI SOMNATH CHATIER· obey Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope JEE (Bolpur): I join the hone Prime that the God may keep the spark Minister that it will be befitting 60 aHve which has been Hghtened in the far as the importance of the occa- heart of Shri Chandra Shekhar and sion is concerned that the Chair that may not bury under the heap of moves it. But it will be better. if the ashes. I am saying what 1 have Chair moves it after some discus- learnt from him. I do not know as sion so that we can express our to what he will say later on in this l views. lS7 Resolution Re. PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Discussion unJer iS8 Gu/fCrisis Rule J93-SituDtion in Punjab

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: among all the parties involved in the The point is, it has already been crisis. adopted in the Rajya Sabha. If we delay this Resolution, the media Deeply conscious of the many his- cannot take it and it has int· na- toric. cultural, Jinguistic and other tional implications. ties that bind India with the nations and peoples of the Gulf region and PROF. MADHU DANDA VATE: the Jong tradition of warm and friend· ly relations Without losing time9 It may lie ad Jpt- with them. ed and released. This House:- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER' 1 (i) Expresses its firm belief that will put this Resolution to the Ii jUS~ war must be averted; and if it IS necessary to discuss it, we can discuss after the Punjab dl&- (Ii) Calls upon all sides to make cussion. or before the Punjab dis- further determined efforts in cussion. as the House decides. the coming days and weeks to prevent war and seek solution THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL through peaceful means by AFFAIRS (SHRI VIDYA CHARAN dialogue under UN auspices SHUKLA): Sir, we adopt the Re- or otherwise. solution here and now. (iii) Wishes the Secretary General MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I of UN every success in his last will read the Resolution minute effort to resolve the issue peacefully. Resolutioa. The crisis in West Asia is causing I think this resolution is adopted grave concern throughout the world. by the House unanimously. Perhaps at no time since the Second World War has humankind been so SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes. close to the brink of global disaster. War win cause incalculable human The ResolutIon was adopted unani- suffering and inflict irreversible en- mously. vironmental damage. War must be averted. Peaceful means must be pur- sued relentlessly. 17.25 hrs. Recalling that the Government of DISCUSSION UNDER Rl~LE 193 India t along with many other coun- tries belonging to the Nonaligned SituadoD in l-";ab-Contd. Movement as well as outside the Movement. have repeatedly been [Eng/ian] urging that the Gulf crisis be resolv- ed by peaceful means through dia- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We logue. can resume the djscussion on Punjab now. Shri Kapil Dev Shastri to Noting that the deadline of ISth speak. January 1991, set in the 'UN Secu- rity Council Resolution 678 is fast [TramlotlonJ approaching. Since the reply is coming from the Believing that the Nonaligned Government soon, the Members Movement has an important role to should make their submissions in play in bringing about a dialogue brief. 1s9 Diacusslon uncle, JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Punjab 160 Rule 193

SHRI KAPIL DEY SHASTRI salmer we fought a Niyay·yudb (Sonepat): Mr. IXputy Speaker, Sir, under the leadersh ip of Shri Devi Lal I would make my submission very against the sections 7 and 9 of the brief and hope that 110 controversy Rajiv·Longowal Accord. Punjab would be raised about it and the did not agree to transfer Fazilika and whole House should also accept those Abobar to Haryana. The Punjah sugOStions. problem would be solved to a great extent if Fazilika and Abohar are to Haryana. Then the Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, fiahting transferred border is there in the very blood of the peo- Haryana will have with Pakis- tan and the infiltration across the ple of Punjab and JIaryana and that border would be checked. cannot be stopped. This has been happening there for the last thou- sands of years. If they have to In 1985 when Shri Bhajan Lal was fight with others, then they utilise t~le Chief Minister of Haryana, he their strength there otherwise they ga ve a proposal to the Central fight at home. It is evident from Ooverrunent. In the said proposal it the history of last five thousands, was suggested that there is no use of years-whether they arc Rajput, Jat, raising the controversy of Kandru· Ooojar or Ahir. These people re· kheda. In lieu of Kandukheda four side there and they fight. If you villages of Haryana can be transfer- ask them to fight for the country---,be red to Rajasthan and four villages of Jt against Germany, France or USA- Rajasthan adjoining to Haryana can they would fight but if you do not be transferred to Haryana. If Abohar do that they woukl fight at home. and Fazilika are transferred to Har- What are the reasons of their fight- yana, there would be no controversy. iogs'! I do not want to go into Arms and ammunitions supply to ter· details. I am a ware of all the rorists in Punjab are c\.)ming across happenings which have happened in the border at Firozpur, (iafllganagar Punjab since 1937. The main rea- and Jaisalmer. But his proposal was son of the Punjab probletn is econo- not accepted. He was renloved and mic and this problem was understood Choudhary Bansi Lal was appointed by Choudhary Chhotu Ram. That as the Olief Minister of Haryana. is why he united all Hindus. Mus- I was one of the five persons from lims and Sikhs at one platform. He Haryana who were present at Akal asked Mullahas to go to mosques, Takhat at the time of partition of Granthis to go to Gurdwaras and Punjab and Haryana and it was deci· Pandits. like me, to go to temples ded that there was a condition to and said that they had nothing to transfer 10-12 vilhl.2cS out of which do with the politics. One thing J only in two vi Ila gi's other language would like to say that many agree- was spoken. Therefore, the stand ments have been signed since 1956 taken in case of Kandukheda is regarding land disputes and sharing wrong. I would say that the day of water, but the people of Punjab the Central Government transfer Abo- particularly Akalis did not allow to bar and Fazilika to I Haryana and implement those agreements-be it the complete Sutlej Yamuna Link Canal, agreement of 1956 for sharing water, the problem of Punjab will be solved agreement of 1968. 1977 or 1982 and automatically to a great extent. Then same thing has happened in case there would be no need to erect wire of agreements signed for transfer of fencing or such other things 8.10ng land. If Indira award 1970 is im· the border. plemented and Fazilika and Abo-har are transferred to Haryana. Punjab In addition to it I would like to problem would have been solved to say that there is one more reason a !l'eat extent. Then you need behind this problem. Earlier 2()...22 not make a security belt upto J ai... per cent recruitment for tile Army 161 Discu3sion under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation in Punjab 162 Rule 19J was made from Punjab and 18 per Munkipal Committees and for cent from Haryana. When Ba-bu Vidhan Sabha in the Punjab. Hold Jagjivan Ram was the f)efencc Minis- all elections simultaneously. If Pan- ter, he put a restriction that the rec- chayat elections are held. people ruitment to the Anny "auld be made will be busy with the eJection. Ter- in proportion to the population of ror~sts I~ever indu!ged in booth cap.- the States. At the time of recruit- tunng there as It happens in other ment for lAS, it is said that candi- States. They said only onc thing to dates would be taken according to the voters that they would caste their ability but the Army recruit- their vote but thl"'Y have to show it to ment is made according to the popu- their agents first. In Punjab the lation. Union Public Service Com- Governm~nts were disnljssed five mission is the biggest enemy of this times that is why they have resent- country. If you have tl.) make rec- nlent for not allowing Government to ruitment in proportion to population run. Punjab and. Haryanl provide of the State. then other jobs should food grains to the entire country and al~o be distributed according to the when t~lere is any threat to the coun- population. 1f ability is taken as a try. they come forward first to pro- base for the recruitment. the youth tect ~h~ country but when the question of Punjab and Haryana should be of giVIng self rule to thenl is arised recruited in the Army. This will they are denied to have it. Shri provide opportunity to them to fight Bhajan Lal is sitting here. He is a for the country and that would solve bnckward Jat ...... (Inle"uptions) ...... their problem to a great extent. Bhajan Lal ji is Jat. [want to say that when a Jat grows naore foOO- Secondly 1 would like to say one grains. the entire country eat that more thing which is a very important. but when a question of giving rule Sutlej Yamuna link Canal should be to them is arised, everyone object given to Haryana. 1 would like to to. that. J would like to say that know from the people of Punjab who WIth the help of Army, aU elections resist the construction of canat that should be held there. Youth should water is flowing to Pakistan since be recruited in the Army .. .(I nterrup- 1956 which is giving benefit to Pakis- lions)...... There is no leadership in tan to the tune of Rs. 800 crores per the Akalis and that is why this thing year, so why they do not want to is going on there. The Governments give that surplus water to Haryana of Prakash Singh Bad at Surjit Sin!lh and Rajasthan. Today the situation Barnala, Lakshman Singh and Jus- in Punjab is that nobody knows tice Gurnam Singh were dismissed Shri Prakash Singh Badal or Gur- there. I would like to know as to charan Singh Tohra. Today young how you want to solve the problem. people are there who want money, rifles and girls and they get them at With these words r w('uJd like to gun point. Have Haryana police say that with the help of Army all been not there, the terrori<;ts would elections from Panchayat to Assem- have turned towards Delh i. Our bly should be held there and that bra ve police force face the terrorists would automatically ~olve the oro- but our police force is not getting as blem. much assistance from the Centre as it should have got. They neither [Engli8h] have weapons. vehicles nor other means. In spite of all these fact SHRI DlNESH SINGH (Pratap- Haryana Police checked the terrorists garh): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. on effectively. Therefore I would like this concluding day of this session. to say that to end the terrorism. the we are discussiDig one of dle most Government should hold clectiouR important issues that faces the coun- for Pancbayats. district councilSr try. I wish . there had been mort 163 Discusslon under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Punjab 164 Rule 193

[She Dinesh Singh] The main issue I think is that ter- rorism is 011 the increase in Punjab. time to go into the problem as such. How it came into being raises a Now many speakers have already question. If one can go into it all of would not b~ spoken and it my at- us will have to share the blame for tempt to raise the issues that have al- it in one way or the other. But how ready been raised and discussed. do we go forward from here? If this House. if the parties in this The problem of Punjab has a his- \.!ountry could evolve a consensus as tory. It goes back to the days of to how we can deal with this pro- partition itself. Then came the lin- blem, 1 think we would have taken guistic States. creation of Punjabi an important first step in that direc- Soob,.1 and now terrorist activiti~s. tion. There is a thread 1hat links all this. To go into the specifics ot it would take time. It would be useful as an I have received from the Lok exercise but the time would not per- Subha library the details of killings mit me to go into the details just now. that have taken place recently in the I would prefer. with your pennission last year. If we take the month of to speak of the possibilities that exist November, the number of civilians now rather go into the historical killed by terrorists was 297; the num- question because it is linked with ber of policemen and security per- emotion. And once one enters the sonnel killed 66; the nunlber of ter- field of emotion. then it becomes rorists killed ] 71; arrested 140. If very difficuJt to work out an arrange- we take it from llth Decemher to ment that would be acceptable to aU 1st January for which figures have in the future. been provided, th6 numb~r of civi- lians killed has risen sharply to 1896; The real problem of Punjab is an the number of t'olicemen and secu- interesting one. Usually if you look rity personnel killed is 465; the num- at the history of secession or terro- ber of terrorists kined is 1199. This rism, it is hnked with deprivation- only shows that we are not moving that the people arc deprived, that towards a solution to the problem. they are poor, that they are not able We are only hightening the kilJings to Bet what they feel right. In Pun- that is taking place in Punjab. jab, the story is otherwise. Punjab is our most affluent State. The per- There has been some criticism as capita income of the people in Punjab to why the Prime ~1injster has agreed has been the highest in the country. to have a dialogue with one group It is therefore not a case in which or the other in Punjab. poverty has compelled people to be- come terrorists. I t is a case on the 17A3 hr.r. [SHRI JASWANrr SINGH other hand of emot ions having been in the Chair] aroused on the basis of religion. Because of that various other issues I think that when we have a situa- have got tied into it. One can take them up separately. tion where the solution is either to fight or to talk, then the obvious ans- wer is to talk. We have just passed Questions were raised about lome a resolution regarding the Gulf that royalty to be given for agricultural we should seek a peaceful solution. produce in Punjab. There can be Therefore the obvious thing in Pun- many other issues wbich can be rais.- jab would also be to seek a peaceful ed to bolster this idea of the emer- solution. Therefore there should be lence of a toligious entity. If we no restriction on the Prime Minister try to tie all these ends. we don't talking to anyone to find a peaceful really reach anywhere. solution. 165 Discussion under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation In Pu'njtih 166 Rule 193

He has made it quite clear that he rent urges and strengthen the unity would talk only to Indian citizens. of the country. It cannot be done and that he would talk within the by appeasement; it ,,-annot be done by ambit of Indian Constitution. except over...exertion of power. A balance for minor changes that may be neces- has to be struck between the assertion sary. Therefore I am amazed that of the authoriy of the State and the objections have been tHken to tbe accommodation of the feelings of the Prime Minister willing to have a people, whether it is power or whe- dialogue to find a solution. Many ther it is any other reHgious or lin- people have objected to it sitting on guistic feeling. Therefore. I would the other side. But I would only suggest to the Government that. as suggest that we should look at this the Prime Minister is holding dialogue question as a question of the Indian with different sections of Indian peo- polity. a question C1f integrity of ple. related to the State of Punjab. the country. We are a lDulti-reIi· he should also have individually, col- gious society. Therefore, it should lectively. more dialogue with the ~ot be necessary for anyone belong- political parties and see whether Ing to one particular religion or the some kind of a consensus on approach other to want to go out of the union can be arrived at-not on generali- to ~nd sai~facti?~. His religious ties, not on merely expression of good feehngs. hIs relmlous sentiments his desire that this should happen and religious righ ts ar-e guara nteed by the that should happen. but how will Constitution in this country. It is it happen. One of the problems that not merely a question of the spirit we faced in Punjab is that of-it is a and the Jetter. but it is the question serious one and that has not been of the accommodation and the coun- mentioned so far, as I have heard try as a whole has to accept that it hone Mem,bers !il-peak--anti-social acti- has to absort> people of different reli- vities that are being carried out.-the ~iC!ns, .spea.king different languages. smuggling of dope. smuggling of gold. hVlng In dIfferent parts of this coun- smuggling of liquor and all kind of try. What is hn ppening in India. smuggling which is giving a stake to Sir. is not peculiar to Indh. There the people in the continuation of this is a global trend. to which we must conflict. of confrontation. Therefore. also look. In the developing socie· it is absolutely necessary that firm ties, there is a desire for greater de- measures have to be taken and I cen1!aJisation. for greater powers. would suggest that we should invite comIng to sma Her units. for assertion Pakistan .for a dialogue. on those acts of ethnic rights. for assertion of reli- because smuggling is also affecting gious r.hts. We find this amongst their economy. to see whether there our neighbours and jf we go further c~uld be a joint effort to stop smug- we find it in other developing socie- g~lng. ties, including the Soviet Union and I dare say, China. On the other Shri Advani has referred to the hand. in the developed societies. the question of putting up barriel"'. Bar- attempt is to forget these divisions riers are useful at times. They be· and to unite in larger association. come necessary, but mere stinging Europe is now becoming one Eurone. of wirefl is not a harrieT. Many not only Western Europe, but also things pass throu~h these wires. The ~stem Europe gettin~ attaching to rea] barrier will come wben smUIl- thIS. In America. the United States is J!linlg will become unprofitable. attempting to unite the entire continent Therefore, we should.o into this of North and South America. There question, this imoortant ecnnomic are these global movements which Question, as to bow we can draw our has .impact on us also. Therefore. voung 0e001e away from smuggling. We have to find out as to PO'W we can bow can we prevent people coming accommodate ,*,ift'e1"P.nt f~fUngs, diffe· over from PakiMan to encourage 167 DiscuJsion under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situlltion in Punjab 168 Rule 193

[S.. Dinesh SiDgh] Kh.alistan has already come. It is this smuggling. to encourage the divi- heard that attacks are being made upon sion,' to encourage divisive activities, girl students who are not conforming to bring arms, to supply arms to them to this dress code. A lady momber ,in and also to train them in Pakistan. Patiala h,s been shot down n9t be· Therefore, I feel that it will be use .. cause she refused to abide by their ful if we could aU apply our minds diktat but simply because she demand .. to it and see that a concrete progra- ed some time to follow it. mme, Dot merely intentions of good results but also the programme to SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Midna- achieve those results. is made and that pore) : It was because she sang the we move in the direction of finding National Anthem. a peaceful solution in which these kjl] .. ings are stopped and Government's SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTA- authority is established by its ability CHARY A: T1).is is in Patiala. to check the anti .. social activities there. SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTA- SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Yes. CHARYA (Jadavpur): Mr. Chairman. in Patiala. Sir, one does not like to begin on a note of pessimism. But I am sure SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTA .. many Members in this House win CHARY A: Further, Sir, the secessio .. agree with me when I start by saying nists have succeeded in banning Hindi that the situation in Punjab has gone broadcasting from AIR. Now. it may from bad to worse in the last two be remembered that our party and months. There are some very clear all the Left parties have been speak- danger signals. I win mention only ing for a very a long time on behalf three. Ftrstly. not only do we find of the rights and the privileges of the that the killings are continuing but regional languages. We ha~e been d~­ we also find that now the murderous manding for a very long tJme that In attacks are concentrated against the those parts of the country, where there minorities. I agree with the Hon. is more than 10 per cent of Punjab Member, Shri L. K. Advani, that this speaking population. the Punjabi lan- is deliberate. this is a part of the a guage should be brought in. But the diabolical plan and it is meant to erstwhile Congress (I) Government bad create a pressure on the minorities to turned its deaf ears to these demands. migrate. I think. it is entirely to the And now we find that a Govemment~ credit of the great people of Punjab which is friendly to them is at last that so far in spite of such pressure buckling to this pressure and they are being mounted against them, there allowing another national language to have been no communal riots in tbe be banned from AIR. So, the cost State nor his there been any large-scale of bringing Punjabi language to broad- migration from the State. But let us casting is at the cost of banning Hindi. say that DOW that l)Tessure is concen .. Further Sir t we find that now they trated on them and if this migration have issued another diktat that water starts, then the international repercus- from irrigation canals must not pass sions of this may well be imagined. from Punjab to Rajasthan. This is a Secondly, we find the administra .. serious matter which is going .to be tion dangerously buckling under the disastrous not only from the point of pressure of the extremists. Now. we view of economic considerations but f\nd the extremists iS8uin2 diktats. also from tbe point of view of the They have enforced a code for media. relations among the different States· They have terrorised the Press. They The third dan~er signal which we ftnd have enforced a dress code for' the is that in tbe last few days. we have students and this imposition of a found that the terrorist activities have uniform is again quite deliberate. It cropped up, i!l parts ~f India where is meant to create the lmpressioh 'that there had never ~ a SK"Obtem bofOte 169 D18cu.nton undet PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Sltuatio" in Punjab 170 Rule 193 thi~. I recall th. murder of the SP Now. let the secessionists go for the in Ohanbad and I recall the Purulia time being. What about the Akali incUkat also. This has happened in leader, Mr. Simranjit Singh Mann? West Bengal. West Bengal is a place I n his memorandum which he ba.~ where even during the terrible anti- ~~ubmitted to the Government, has he Sikh riots of ]984, the Sikh minorities given that commitment that unity of were assured of as much security as India wou ld be an accepted promise any other community in the country. and not a matter of debate? Why is this being done? This is done deliberately in order to create disorder, in order to build up an atmosphere of 18.00 hrs hatred between one community and 11 bl.:. that memorandum he ftnother. So. these are the danger sig- Juay in ha'i not mentioned Article 51 of the nals. And it is our suspicion and we Con~tilution although this was men- have an imoression that the attitude tioned in the rec;o]dt~ion that was taken of the Government in the last tWO months has certainly not helped the by the three Ak'lli p1rties in Decem- her It n1ust have been mentioned but situation. We have some of us who have given their demand said that this has. in fact, given en- they up for c;elf-determination and a demand for couragement the terrorists. to The a buffer State between India and Pakis- Prime Minister has denied this and I tan raised at the meeting of these three hope hi~ subsequent action~ wil1 prove A kali groups in his words. But why do we have this December. feeling that the sece~sionists move- ment got the wrong 'iignaIs from the We know that the Akali leaders be- Government? I think only yesterday long to a very glorious anti-Imperia- Ii')t tradition but it is unfortunate that the Prime Minister had said that he they are unable to withst3nd the pres- would hold talk~ even with the seces- ",ure of the extremists. They are not "ionists because they are also citizens demnrking them"ielves sufficiently from of India. Now, the Prime Minister the extremists. It must be said that knows that they are citizens of India in today·s newspaper there was a and we aL~o know that they are cHj- we1come report of a statement by zen\ of India but do the sec('')sionists Mr. Mann where he has dissoci~ted know that? Have they given that COm- him"elf from these acts of violence mitment to the Prime Minister that and terror. We welcome this. Sir. when they come for talks. they will however~ still the question is there that agree not to raise about the unity of if the Government has talks then these India. that they will not bring into talk" must be without any pre-condi- question the unity of India? The tion. Terrorism must be condemned Prime Minister also has said, in justi- and the integrity of the country must fying his statement. that he is prepar· not be made a matter of debate. It is ed to tal~ with anyone in the country, only when these have been accepted including the secessionists. He has whether by Mr. Mann or whether by said that the solution to the Punlab secessionists, only then the talks can problem does not lie in bullets. Who, proceed. in this House, thinks that the solution to the Punjab lies in bullets? I am A~ain we find the Prime Minister sure nobody. It is only the sec~s· making statement in Newspaoer say- sionists w~o tried to sblve the PunJab in~ that the Pakistan Government is problem through the bullets. They are anxious to corne to terms with tho trying to solve it by shedding inn~~nt Tndian Government reunJing the mat· blood, by extortion and by te~nSln~ ter of Klr9listaD. Has there beell any the people and unless they R1.ve up sueq sign of goodwill from the mili· this strategy and unless they gtve up tary POWVerB in Pakistan or the Oov- their ' commitment for secessionism, emlllcot wb1cb has been newly ln8tttU· how can~ there be a basis for talks? ed' tltere? If tbe,y have this ,oodwi11 . , ~ 12-6 LSS1M&t91. '. 171 Discussion under JANUA RY 11, 1991 Situation il1 PIJJ~joh 172 Rule /93

[Smt. Malini Bhattacharyu 1 mands being made by the ~errorJfJts then at least they should stop giving tha t certain people who are not in shelter to the notorious Panthk Com .. favour with them should be removed. mittees. So long as they are not do- There should not be wholesale shift- ing this. 1 would like to ask the Prime in2 of the udministration. Sir. If this Minister on what evidence he is issu· streamlining. strengthening of adminis- ing such certificates to the Pakj'4t~ll fration can be a~hieved then only. Sir. Government. it would be possible to conduct eJe~­ tions otherwise we know recently ell" Sir, I now come to the last part of ,)perative elections were held in my speech. There is indeed. 1 think Ropar and they were held at ~lIn­ d certain silver lining in the mid,t of [,)oint. If you do Dot want to pre)ent all this darkness_ something which Punjab to the tCtTorists on the platter I have mentioned before also. The no not have elections until the admi· peopJe of Punjab are still against ter- nistration has been strengthened and rorism. At the gra~s-roots we still masse" have been eiven su'lident find people when they have some or- f3ith and trust. ... Qanised force to mobilise thenl: when they have administration t(' ba('k them up_ we find the people sun Te~ Sir _ there are two or three ot her c;ist terrorism with great de~l \')f suggestions. I will just mentinn them heroism. Earlier on when Mr. rAann as the~e are positive suggestions. There was arrested. we find that the protests was a proposal for .nhancing the were quite muted. nomina1. The rmployment for unemployed youth~ dhtlrna bv the Sikh Studenfs Federa- in Punjab which was put forwa·rd by tion of india on 30th last did nC't the V. P. Singh Government. (t should attract crowds. They think that the ~e inlplemented by the present Gov .. administration wi1J not be '\ble to ~rnment. The points of dispute re- protect them: the political parties will ~arding Chandigarh regarding dislfl- not be able to mobilise them au(1 it iq bution or water should be resolved only under such terror the people of Immediate]y; if necessary the Govern .. Punjab are still standing the terror lets. Inent can rely on judicIal verJict for There is a positive proof of this. Sir. this. The rights and privileges ...'f T win give only one instance. Punjabi language, one of the national On November 26 last. from our lan!luages. must be upheld. The Cen- tre-State relationship must be made district leve) demon~tra­ P3rtv. mass more balanced. of tions were heJd in different area.;; of Some the' rumbl- lOgs that we have been hearing in Punjab demanding for a politic:!l ~olu .. the last two months, the way different tion of the problem and 10 defence ()f national unity and these. consider- "tate Governments are being brought inS! the overall situation in Puniah. to their knees, should not continue. t\ rallies and mass deJnonstration~ found hel1thy Centre-State relationship is 'in absolute pre-condition for a ~reat deal of respom;e. the ~olurion of the Punjab problem. The Some of the hon. Member~ have ,,\11 India Gurudwara Act must be been talkinll about elections in Pun .. instilled and as for the ] 984 riot(;_ iab. . Certainlv. we are an for elec- there has been already sufficient delay tions in Punjab but. Sir. if these elec- in the investigation-there have been tions are to be held then ths buckl· ~onlmjttees. they have' givon reportR ing down to the administration must but very little action has been taken. be stopped. Administration Inust be T'be erstwhile National Front Gov- strengthened~' the Central Government erhment took some measures but'may Inust go behind ',he administration. It he they had too many other pre-fIe· !\hould not only brinSl right kind of cupations and these did not make people to the right kind of piaces at t Pluch progress. Tbis Govermt1ent ,the' same ·time it should not yield to ;nouJd take' it up a~d shOidd not Jet the ;dtrnands. cnmplete)y ignoble de- the culprits of 1984 riotJ p.. . · 1'1~ Discuss;oll ",uler PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Sill/alioll ill Punjab 174 Rule /93

Finally. Sir, it is a matter of in- would be changed from India stalling tru9t and confidcllce in the CIoBharat") to Khalistan. Then this rltasses, mobilising the masses S~ that ~l uarrel will be only for the nante and tbe acts of telTorisms may be l~re­ not the secession of the country. Mr. vented even before they are c0111mitt- Chairman Sir. this is a religious pro~ cd and for this we would urge upf.n blem. sentiments and not the argu .. f he Government not to let the seces- ments matter in religion. You k.now ~,jonists hold the Govemnlent and the and we also know how the country country and the people of Punt3b tv wa~ divided in 1947, On the one hand. ransonl. An immediate meeting of the the slogan was that Muslims are a National Integration Council must be s...:purale nati,)l1 and un the other hand ~leld. The Government or the PI ime \\ Wi the voice of Hindu nation. The ~l1illisteT should take us iot(_) ~onn­ (lne supported the other unmfentio· (!enee regarding the talks that he is n~,:1)'. The British regiIne got all !lnvillg with different parties. l'pportunjty to ~lrikl! and we were ~lJvjdeu. SepJrated -l)Ur motherland r J 1(1)1\/"1;011] W.tS divided. Not only the greatest l\!uoer. hut Mahatma Gandhi idd ~HRI BHOOENDRA JHA (MaJhh- ghen us the aLivi'-.:c: "Ishwar. AlIuh, oani): Mr. Chairman, Sir. it is g\)od Teronaam. San Ko Sunmati de Rhag· that we are discussing the Punjab waan·~. ~jtuation today_ Punjab probJem l~ the problem of the entire ~ol&ntry (Some ~all you I!)hwar. and some ai) now. There was a time when Sikhism Allah. Oh Lord. bel\tow wisdom to \\"as in its making. respected (,lIfU all.) Nanak Devji laid its foundation. At Ihat time there was a division of (}Ui But lhi~ "S~lt1l1lalj" {wisdom) tOll (,'uuntry on the basis of religiJJ1 viz. had no effect. Somebod\ shot Hjndu~ tlnd Musljm~. Guru Nanak ('andhiji in the chest after '" remem~ Doviji taught the t~son of unity bering God. and the name of HAllah" (ullong Hindus and Muslims and otheJ S {no was mi~lIsed. In this manner our end those who followed his teachings country was divided. After indepen- were caned the Sikhs. I havtl} been dence there were concerted eftorts in vbiting Punjab whenever I g,')t a the direction that there should he a ~·hance. Very recently on 5th January section of the people whose mother· I had been to Bhatinda. Earlier. I t(fugue was Punjabi but who would went to Amritsar also. There I nMde sav that Hindi was their mother~ton~ an appeal to the public whetht:r they ~u·e. Though their mother-tongue wa~ would aHenate the first GUrudwclTal of Pun;abi. th~y still usc the same lan~ the world~ i.e. Patna Sahib frrnn [!.uage. There can't be any other rea· Khali~tan., where the founder Guru ~oning except religious or communal. Of the Khalsa Panth Guru G

[Sh. Bhogendrc:l J ha] when there was a alopn "Babri ~as. Late Sardar Pratab Singh Kairon was jid tod do" (Demolish Babri Masjid) the Chief MinIster at Ulat time. He thete was a slogan from Kashmir say- demanded the construction of that ing 'Bharat chhod do' (Quit India) project in Bhakra Nanga!. Somt: of and terrorism gained ground in Pun .. our people objected to this. Articles ja1b and a cry was beard from there Yfere publ~shed, and attempts were saying ~B'harat too do'. ma,de to launch an agitation on the issue that Bhakra Nangal Dam is go- No doubt, one may not intend to ing to be constructed in place of Kosi demolish the mosque, but the effect dam. We, the communists, opposed is there. Our country is multi-liugual. strongly and said that Punjab is bleed- multi-cultural. and based OD the ing and it is divided and it should unity in diversity and we have some therefore be given the topmost prio- dignified traditions. These things have rity. The same thing was done. Bha- rome in the way of vitiating the feel- kra Nanga! Danl was built at the cost ings. The present situation is dan- of Kosi Danl. They say that Punjab gerous. I don't want to speak anything has been neglect ed. If the c~untry about it, as all my fridends have has given Bhakra Nangal Dam to a1ready spoken about it. People do Punjab as a result of which there has not accept with sweet will. They been tremendous Progress in the field aocept only on account of fear. Pan- of agriculture and industry, it is not thak conlnlittee gives a call and people the testimony of neglect. accept it out of fear. I associate my- self with the views expressed by my Mr. Chairman. Sir, even otherwise other colleagues who have said that it is. a matter of pleasure for us that the people of Punjab, whether they Barauni in Bihar is also getting are sikhs, Hindus or of any other the coal at the same rate at which ~ ommunity have remained calm in spite the thermal power station of Dhatinda of all the riots, excesses. and brutal iE getting. People of our region argue killings. They have not indulged in that in spite of producing coal why rjots in any vjllage or city or mohalla. s~ou~d. they get it on higher price. Such is the dignified tradition of our SInce It is known- as trade zqualisa- nation and this is our big capital tion, so they are getting coal from which wiH help us in going ahead. I Bhatinda or any other place at chea· have got an information according to per, rate5. We 40 not object, if they which the Chancellor of the Punjab are getting it. As far as possible our University. Charidigarh has been country discharged the duty of nouri· threa tened that the terrorists wiU shing Punjab because after 1947 much t.ake revenge if he does not resign. attention was given towards streng· So far as I know that Chancellor is thening ,Punjab. especially because it not going to Chandigarh and he is i5, the province which serves as a sen- still in Delhi. This type of terror is try of this country. still prevalent there. In spite of all this. the masses of Punjab are main- Mr. Chairman, Sir.' there are certain taining close relationship among things which spoil the environments. themselves. Mr. Chairman. Sir", what Meanwhile, you may recollect that steps should we take in such. situa- the v~nHct of the Supreme Court in tion is a different matter which aas case of Shah Bano was changed, so a been discuSied time and aglln. Per- signal was received in Punjab that if haps this point has not come up dur- the verdict of the Supreme Court can ing this discussion. Now. the ·things be changed under the threat of vote are being Hnked. such as some sikh they would use thl threat of vote and may commit 'some orime after JOing show their might also' to influence to some other placo in the 18lt18 man- the decision. in tlteir favour. If ner in which a Khali$tarli miHtant did somebody erts. it influences others by killing laD S.P. Jl1 Dhenbad.· The . alsO: StmBarly, 4-5 "years back vi<:tim died. and a«Ordiaa to a· repart. 171 DlJernsiDn under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situlltion in Punjab 178 Rule 193 the Khalistaui militant was apprehend .. demands of the public' should be ac- ed in Purulia. The simple .motive of cepted. It will be the decisiv.e as' the militant is to, some how, insti- well as political approach also. For gate riots in the country so that there example those responsible for the is disturbance and sikhs are subjected 1984 riots should be punislied and to violence and it is a matter of pride the Chandigarh and water di.sptltes that there have been no acts of revenge should be resolved immediately. I in Bihar, Bengal or any other olaCe, think the most prominent leader of Whe hope that our people from any Haryana is our Deputy Prime part of the country and their patrio.. Minister. I hope he wilt think tism will prevent such a situation and our th~se disputes keeping in the people will not take revenge from view the jntt-rest of the country and anyone else for the misdeeds of the adopt liberal approach. At present he rioters, extremists and terrorists. Only is in such a position that he wilJ the real culprit will be punished by keep the interest of country in view law which our country has adopted. and take liberal stand in resolving Whatever punishment is there accord· the~~ disputes. It is a matter of joy ing to the law wi11 be awarded to that he will help in resolving these the terrorists. disputes as the Deputy Prime Minister keeping in view the larger interest of the collusion between Khalistanis. the country. Our intelligence agencies members of ULFA and LTtTE and are not upto the mark. In fact our the people who want to alienate Kac;h· fail UTe to bust terrorist gangs in Pun- mir is not good. Such links should be jab can be attributed to our intelli- considered seriously and smashed. gence ageneies. B:lsically there are This should not be ignored. two types of cxtrcmists--the first type comprises of people who particularly Mr. Chainnan. Sir. just now the want a separate state and ~ second question of Pl kistan came up. type comprises of people who are just criminals taking advantage Of The Prime Minister has said that the troubled atmosphere to indulge in we have to hold tllks with Pakistan violence. The Govemtnent and its and Punjab issue should not be the intelligence agencies have to diffe- noint of disclls';;lon because it is our rentiate between the two. It will not internal matter. We have to see how be fair on our part to call a11 of to solve it? Pakistan has no right them as Khalistanis because we to interfere in India's internal matters. shaH not be abJe to take action Tnte:-ferance hy P:l ki~tan in our against the two groups simultaneously. internal matters should be the point of discussion. There is no harm to So far a~ India's border with have discussion with Pakistan on this Pakist~ n is concerned. the Govern- ment has to think how to seal it? issue. Unless we seal the border we cannot stop the influx of arms and terrorists MR. CHAIRMAN: Please con- from across the border. Unlike Shri clude now. Bhajan Lal I am not in favour of uprooting the people who are living SHRI BHOOENIDRA IRA: I 1m within twd kilometres of the border . .just coacluding. One i~P_Ortant thinS It can be done by supplying electric I want to say is that thlS 1B not a per- current to the fence. nlegal crossiDl sohal war that the army should be of the border. be it in terms of smug.. caned in. An extremist ldlls people gling of arms or escaping of terrorists and then disappears and when our must he checked at all costs. armed foree. reach there he resorts 10 \ timg; and many itmocent porIOns are Tile hon. PriQle M..ii~ has ..it ld1ted. As I have a1rea~ said and tha~' ·t1Hs is·~ necessary ~ urging again tClday that die jUltilable which we eanot Pt suceess. "'thoitDfte -Of 119 Discu$lioll under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation· In Pun}fl/J Rule 193

[SIl . .BbM&mdra Jba] trative ml!;lns or through m~t\la1 dia- abe main isaues is whether to lks should logue. If the constitution has to be Ito tJeJd or DOt. Even today we have amended for the powers of the States passed a Resolution that the Gulf (I"Ierr II pt7on$) crisis should be resolved through mutual dialogue. What is the harm in baving a dialosuc? I am tatting MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about the people who ..1re honest, like been given 23 minutes to speak in~· me. When we were imprisoned in jail tad of three minutes. Now please during freedom struggle" we escaped conclude your bP\!cch. ., jumpin, over the jail walls. We f(er~ asked to give in writing that we SHRIBHOGENDRAJHA: lam would not indulge in violence. We l..unc1uding. The Constitution will challenged them to take liS to court hav~ to bt! umended in view of the b.ut did not sign the conditton put lccomlnendationl-. of Sarkaria Com- by them. We just ~ald that we would mis~ion. More pow~r~ win have to make efl'orts to avoid violence. Per.. be grallt~d to St ltcS. Shri Bhajan Lal wnally. 1 have n..:v~r adopted violcnt 'U.ud that the Stdtl'~ of Himachal Pra- means to achieve my ends. Th..: desh. Haryana and Punjab should hi.: Sikhs. who staunchly ~upport th ... merged to one state. I don't think demand for Khalistan will never ac· thh \\IjjJ ~olve the problem. With cede. So tbcr~ j~ no harm in having thebe word~ ] conclude my ~peech. a dialogue. Th~ Governnlent can Thank y\lU. initiate a dlalpgue Hnd the Prime Minister ,an make it clear that thert! SHRJMATI BIMAL KAUR can be an agreement within the frame- KHALSA (Ropar): Han. Mr. Chalt- work of the unity and integrity of man Sfr. today $ di~cussjon b being the country We mu'"'t be sure about held on the Punjab i~sue. The parti- this last aspect otherwise the dialogue .:Jpation of ,,]I Members in this dis· will be of no use. The people who have I.. US~J(ln j", ,nueh appreciated but it h been misguided will come forward to 'j tnattci of regret that I!xcept fOI ,;cek Government help but thOle wbo hon Shri Bhog\!ndra Jha none of thl.! are deliberately indulging in such actl" member~ "poke of poJice atrocities on vities will not come forward. ThJ~ Sikh youth in Punjab. They should will not s,;lve the problem. Therefor~ look at th\! i~~ue from both angle~. It is not a question of opposing the Every member .,poke of handing over dialogue but (,If kCCPHl~ the admini ... • Punjab to army or fencing the bordet tration from b&..:oming weak. Among or tak ing over land of the famlcN. the poinb discusbed were holding cf But nobody said that the Punjab pro- talks, gearing-up the intelligence agen- blem cannot be solvcd by forc~. cies illld checking the Illegal move- Ev~ryonc said that it should be ment lWross the Indo·Pak border. (/11- checked. it should be killed. Eve! v- t€'n"uplions ) one also said that elections should not be heJd in the State till the situa· MR. C1iAIRMAN: Please con- tion become., normal. I want to clude your ~peech now. know what action has been taken by the Oovenuncnt to solve the problem 4! SHRI BHOGJiNDRA JHA: My Recently 58 companicliJ of C.R.P.F. party feels, perhaps the entire Hou~c and D.S.F. are jent to Punjab and also f~e'l~. thttt an occasion to extend several. Gypsies and trucks are beiD, the presideafs Rule should not arJ~( ~upplwd More weapons arc beiDa as lin. We bavil to create a favour- given. Has the Government esti· able atmosphere for holcling election..,. mat~d the extent to which the 8.S.F. roday people QtMot cast their v("te And CR.P.F. caft contribute tOWard6 feadesaly. .t\n atm~phete conducive restoring nOJl1\alcy in tbe State? to the h~ "r ~lec1ions must be Al en't innocent ~peop1e bciDJ killed created thro'Jlh polittca1 or adminis" by tbe e.R.p.F. and B,S,F.? Is the 18 f Dilcuasion ulIller PAUSA 21 ~ 1912 (SA/( A) Situation in h"jab t 82 Rule /93

Government aware Of a Press report been imposed. I asked let the people published day before yesterday that reac,", their homes and till that time C. R.P.F." B.S.F. and Police oflicials c top lathi-charge. But they continued ~lh}t ttt a conductor and his two com· their atrocities on the people thouah panions when they were returning J insisted upon them at three-foar after doing their duty. The conduc- pla"t''' not to do so, tor WH~ killed and his two com- panion~ injured in this firing. This led bus-operators to observe a two .. You might have read in YMterda)"s days strike. Nobody tried to under.. newspaper about Bhawanigarh inci- ~tand why this strike was observed. dent where the police rewrted to fire The Government does not want to and lathi..charge 011 the farmers who take action against the guilty police were staging ·Dhurna' pe~ful1y. I officials. Two days after the strike want 10 bring to ) nur notice that the a case was registered against the guilty police have taken Jaw in their hands persons. At Khanna, d truck was g,)ing bC!cau~e they are ~ure that no case ahead. a Maruti van in which was a would be registered against them. No leader of Congress (I), The bodyguard law is existing in Punjab. Ahout 6-7 of that leader shot .. dc.ld the trw.:k dri- months ago police JdJlcJ Kulwant ver only because he did not give him Sinzh in a fake encounter at Mohali. side due to heavy rush. Such type of Th; Governor. D.C.~ S.S.P. and others incidcnt~ occur there. The pOlice did had visited the ~POt. The D.S.P .• Shri not register the casco ThCi people pro- Dileep Singh, who is still in Mohali~ te,tcd and demanded fot' thc arrest and Inis-beh3ved with mc. It i~ a matter prosc('ution of th~ aCl'used. But the of ~hame for the Government that • poli..,·c did not reghtter case against D.S, P. insults an M.P. and it is more the cUlprit in order to protect him. cumhersome that no action has be9 The people gheraoed the Police-Sta- taken yet against tbat D.S.P., I want to tion and staged a peaceful Dhama tell you how did ~ behave with me. 1 when they came to kn\)w about the am compelled to bring it to the lIotice police's diUy-dallying in registering of the Government. The matter should the case. Every citizen has right to be forwarded to Privilege Committee. protest peacefully but we cannot do Does the Government wants Member even that in Pun;ab. We are fired by of the Parliament. who has been elec- the po1j..:e there even jf we hold a ted by lakhs of \otes, be misbehaved peaceful protest. You might ~a~e and insulted by the police. That is come to know the news about inCI- why they (the Government) are not dent took place at Khanna in which taking any action against the D.S.P. 2 or 3 persons were killed and 8 were who had mis-behaved me? injured in a police-firing when they were peacefully demonstrating. Their only guilt was that they were demons- The police is resorting to house to trating peacefully. house search. The youth are out of the houses and detaineddra_ ille- gally. The poli~ do not disclose their J teJl you that J immediately rushed where aboutl. The Government asSUres there when I got intimation on phone that the women will not be calJed at abolJt the incidellt and the JXllice police-stations for any interroption. atrocities in my constituency. When I But one m3)' confirm it from the reached there. police was annouDC.ing Police Ration that the police bas tor- at that time that curfew had been Jm- tured a woman by pulling ber bair. posed in Khanna and people wCte be .. Such is the situation of Punjab today. ing advised to ~o to their respective EYQn then ~you arc saying that]l\e home~ and simultaneously they were Punjab pt:obletn must be Solved Wltb- beln, lathi cbarsed by the police. in the' pro~fo1tS of.; tbe Constitv_ Whell j I asked the CD,~ .of JaUU- 1 ·\\rant .to: uk Wbe,tber tho ~ charp, they told me tbat curfew had tkm. ·aHow. Ie)" ~o such 'dttdts? ::Doft . lli&cussion I.IIJde, JAtjUARY 11, 199'1 Situation in Punjtlb 184 RUle 193

~t.,. Bil~al Kliur Khalsa] of terroris~ and weapons wete ,nerc. the constitution of India allow to kin I say that there were 80 m,lny w.nys of a. youth in 'a fake police encounter 8'Pprebending them. 1 want to know after dragging h;m out of his house? the fault of those \\ho had come to ~s. it -pe?Uit to detain the youths Darbar Saheb on the day of 'Guru 10 JaIl for bye to seven years \\·ithout Parva' to bow down their heads be- ~rosecuti[ljg them. Does ·cJur constitu- fore Shri Arjun Singh ji ...... (Inter- tion pe~its the police to carry the ruptions)...... It is being said that youth$ In. unnumbered vehicles. Is it the terrorists were hidden in Har- not true that the vehicles without any Mandir Saheb. But when 39 Gurud- number are being frequently used by warns were searched in not a single the police in Punjab. Does the cons- terrorist was found in 38 Gurudwaras. *itution ,of 'India -allow to construct a Similarly, former Prime Minister. temple after demolishing the Babari Shri' V. P. Singh was advised by the... e M~sjit? Does jt debar us from joining very people not to conduct election the funeral processjon of those youths in Punjab. He was told by them that who are killed by the poli~e? Even the the atmosphere of Punjab was not relatives are not alJowed to see the conducive to the election. Agreeing dead bodies of those who are killed by to their advice t he did not conduct police. We say that {'De should be election there and constitution was punished according to law, only if one amended twice accordingly. As a re- co~mits crime. But no law permits the sult of which he hud to repent later police to shoot out the criminal. On on. He has himself said that he is the -wake of any such incidents, the repenting for not conducting election parents of the missing children reach in Punjab. Recently. our Prime Minis- there to verify under the apprehension ter has talked to Shri Mann. He has that the deceased may be their own said youths of Punjab win be caned wards. But the police do not allow for talk. I am of the view that any the parents to· see the dead-bodies. talk or agreement take pJace when The police resort to lathi--.:harge if they there is a dispute between two parties ask for rhe dead-bodies of their wards. otherwise there is no use of having Such is the pitiable conditions of the a talk. For example. Gu1f-Crisis. which parents there...... (Interruptions). is of great concern. I wish that India should find out some solution of this 1CH. ,RAM PRAKASH (Ambala): crisis. When we are making efforts to Mr. Chairman. Sir. why does not she solve this crisis through talk. then say anything about the bank-robberies why do not we try to solve the Pun- and the killings of the 20·30 bus- jab problem through talk ...... (Inter- passengers after draggillg them out? ruprlons) ... This problem also may be ...... (lnferruptions) ...... sorted out through dialogue. Earlier also there had been Rajiv u,ngowal MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your accord in 1985. At that time also the 1_~ ~(lnte,.,.upt.ion9) ...... :.. ~,.. f di9pute was with youths. There was . S~.JMAT] BIMAL KAUR no dispute with Shri Longowal and Shri Bamala. But accord was amone. KHALSA: I want to say that no one has right. to take law in one's h~ds. 'Sbri Rajiv Gandhi, Shri Bamala, Shrl 'Bala'fVant and Shri Lon,owaL The re- R~. l\yllO commits a crim~-mus.t be punished ..... (Inte"lIptions) At t~t sult of their accord is before you. lV~1'een\ent .tiJlle~ Sllr~1:1ati Indira Gandhi w.s Therefore, I say that sbould co~seJled to attack and dCl)1olish ,the be with those, with whom there is a Darbar. Saheb In order to aOlve the dispute. Therefore, it is requested that Prunjab issue. She was toJd by 1ter Punjab problem may be solved through talk .. ; ..... (Interruptions) a4vi~ that. several terrorists were . ~ ~ -~ ~ '.' DatWt S4h~b. OIlly _aftot~.~~t ~.~t\t!, .~'~ was, fl1lacted. f,~.t.lttJj __ 18Jd·'tbat a.mlm\1er • 'l1li ~ ...... I. .. ,.... 185 Dlscu$sion under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situation in Purljab 186 Rule 193

ha ve taken two or three tilnes more ponsible for the riots are in our Par- than the allotted time. Now, J request liament but the Government tends to you to conclude )our speech. over-look them. The Government should not exempt any guilty person SHRIMATI BIMAL KAUR irrespective of his post. KHALSA: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I shall take only two-three nllnutes more. 'Mr. Chairman, Sir. another point 1 Shri Bhajan La! Ji has said that my want to raise is that the election of the husband had assassinated Shrimati Shiromani Committee is due for the Indira Gandhi. It is a well known fact last many years. The Sikhs are sear· that my husband and Satwant Singh ched in before entering the Gurud- had assassinated her but nly husband waras, their religious shrines. No one was immediately shot dead, though he is allowed to enter the Da rhar Saheb. had raised his hands. The law does Police personnel in civil dress are not permit to shoot out the man who deputed there. They have been deploy- has surrendered. Even then he was ed in our religious pIacec;. Sir. what is shot dead. the Government doing to heal the wounded feeHngs of the Sikhs? I After that. Satwant Singh and Kehar hope that this problem may be solved. Singh were hanged to death because if the Sikh's wounded hearts are they were the assassins of Smt. Indira healed. Gandhi. But I want to know why was the entire Sikh Community punished? What was the guilt of other Sikhs? Mr. Chairman, Sir. in 1931, Why were they burnt alive? Bhajan Mahatma Gandhi Jj had said at La1 Ii says that Shri Rajiv Gandhi Sheesh Ganj Gurudwara that the Sikhs had heen visiting whole night. I want were bold enough to get their rights to know as to Wh.lt Shri Rajiv Gan- if they were denied their rights. Deny- dhi did by visiting the riots affected ing them their rights is the mnin areas? Is any F.T.R. re~istefed against cause of Punjab problem. T want to any of the culprit? ... (Interruptions) ... say that there is still scope of finding out the solution of Pnnjab problem. [Englishl This problem would be too intricate to solve if immediate solution is not MR. CHAIRMAN: P1ease do not found out. interrupt her. It would not go on record .. (lnterruptinns)· ... fTrfl'tn/ationq

MR. CHAIR\1AN: I am perfectly SHRT T. K. GUJRAL (Ja11andhar): capable of keeping the House in Mr. Chairman. Sir. the Puniab situation order. All of you do not have to main- has been beinl! discussed here for the tain order. Please sit down. last three hours. It is unfortunate that we are still digging the pa~t. If we rTranslation1 discuss this matter from the very be- ginnio·g it will be a very lengthy dis- SliRIMATI 8IMAL KAUR cussion but I would ]ike to say that KHALSA: Property of crores of although ten long years have lapsed rupees of Sikhs was de~troyed. This after the 1980 elections and now we' Government had promised to. consti- are in the year t 991 ~ there has been tute s~ial courts to punish the cul- DO imJ')rovement in the situation of prits ot 1980 riots. But I ask them Puniab. On the ~ contraty the things as to how many culorits ot that riot moved frqm bad to worse. It is go(.1d have been punished so far, though 6 that now Shri Otandra Shekhar is the years have lapsed. The pe,rsons. res- Prime Minister ~ 1 t~is ~cop(1trY.. r,tt. V~~~ .back .I alona with Sbrl Cha~ta " • He t recotded. She'k:nar and it few 6tbeti vMtea 13-6 LSS/ND/91 187 Diseus~~ion under JANUARY II, 1991 Situation in Punjab 188 Rule 193

[She I. K. Gujrall and the condition of the people living Darbar Saheb for the first time to in Punjab was pathetic. Our ladies have a dialogue with some people. At were not safe, we had no past, no that time also, the situation of Pun- language and no culture. At the time jab was critical and some people were of Babar a great Saint-The Saint Guru trying to deteriorate the situation fur- Nanak was born and for the first time ther and they were not prepared to he gave us a call and asked us to be make the situation normal. Unfortu- couTwgeous. The atrocities cClmnlitted nately the politics took such a tum by Babar and other Moghul Kings at that time. I do not want to name gave birth to the Punjabis and by the anyone, th~t Sant Bhindarwale be- time the tenth Guru was born a renew- came a prominent figure. As far as ed vigour had developed in us. Our Sant Bhindarwale is concerned. had great saints had laid our fl)undation Shri Bhajan 1al been present in the and they had created the Punjabi cu]· House, he would have informed us ture. They had given us discipline. about the party to which Bhindarwale psychoJogy, culture, language a~d val- extended his ~upport, the platform ues. These values called for unIversal from where he spoke and whom did well beine. Through these teachings. he get elected. If these facts were re- the welfare of the entire humanity was vealed. things wDul

[She I. K. Gujral] no change in their intention. The This Nation upholds truth and the policy was the same of interference in person who is courageous, prospers Punjab and Kashmir. 1 am an old and allow others to prosper. As such, friend of Shri Chandra Shekhar and I strongly believe that we have an appreciate his far sightedness. unfortunate politics. However, this is not the time to analyse which Gov.. emment was immature. Had we not 19.00 hrs. been immature we would have not started thinking about it after ten But a~ a personal friend, I would years. I have got a long list of the like to tell him not to commit a mis- errors committed during that long take of changing the foreign policy period but due to shortage of time over telephones and through sweet I do. not want to go into it. But I talks. The foreign policy should be would like to draw your attention to framed to serve the long terms inte- one important aspect since I am per- rc~ts. But he still wants to continue ~onally concerned with it. We have this fureign policy. inspite of all the been guessing about Longowal Accord. Jnterfcrcnce being carried out in Pun- Anandpur Sahab Resolution and the jab and Kashmir. text of Longowal Accord that was sent to Sarkaria Commission. But we are not paying proper attention to- Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, you nlay wards the Pak activities. We are un- remember the time I am mentioning fortunate that for two to three ahout. It refers to last june. Mr. hours the discussion is going on but Gates, the Security Advisor of the contrary to my hopes no one has American President Mr. George Bush drawn our attention towards this im- came to meet me. He informed me portant issue. I have been associated that he has visited Pakistan, before with the foreign policy of this coun- coming to India. The Prime Minister try for a few months. I myself had of Pakistan has told him that the discussions with the Pak foreign J) camp' in which the terrorists were Minister twice. I also spoke to their being trained, have been closed. I Foreign Secretary. It would be a asked him that out of how many blunder if we ignore the foreign ~amps. the 31 camps have been c1osed. policy of Pakistan in respect of Kash- because our figures are different in nllr or Punjab problem and we are this regard. 1 told him that he may time and again committing this mis- leave this point, but if there were 31 take. We are blaming each other but canlps, has any account been kept we are not trying to look into the about those, who were -trained there? element that is instrumental behind it. Where they have gone? Mr. Deputy You must be remembering what I Speaker, Sir, you may have observed had urged in this House from the that the Ambassador of America in ruling side. In the month of February Pakistan, Mr. Okley has openly said when I had first talked to Yakuh he that his country does not support the was giving an ultimatum and there interference by Pakistan in Kashmir was a danger of war. I did not under and Punjab. Now, if we leave this estimate that ultimatum. He had a apart and he think that his intentions firm belief that whether they did in- has changed after a meeting in Male, terfere in Kashmir or in Pakistan then it is a different thing. But I re- they could spoil the entire atmosphere quest you and through you to the of these places. But the reply that Hon. Prime Minister, who is also a should have come from you had al· personal friend of mine, that serious ready been given by me. attention should be paid towards this foreign policy. The intentions of As a result. when they talked for Pakistan should be properly under- the second time after two months, stood. Has there been any decrease their tone was changed, but there was in terrorism after Male? 193 Di8C~sslon under PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA.) Situation in Punjab 194 Rule 193

[EntUsh] still think that this win create no danger for us and there is no need MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think to pay serious attention to this issue. we were expected to work today upto I am not saying that you should make 7.00 p.m. But I think we can have a bomb or 1 am also not saying that some more time. There are a.bout you should not make bomb. I am four or five Mem'bers to speak. I only saying that while discussing the think we can extend the time till the Punjab and Kashmir issues we should debate is over. als\) keep in mind the entire border of our country. We should consider SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: the facts that it has been one year. Yes. ~ince our forces are standing eye ball (0 eye ball. They are trying to MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please check this situation. But this can not continue and you can take as much be checked through wire fencing. time as you like. Neither this can be checked through China wall nor through Berlin Wall. This can only be checked by the [Translation] people. What was the reason that during the wars of 65 and 71, Pakis- SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: I was men- tan was not able to advance from this tioning about the Gates Mission. He '·ide. The people stood up as a wall. visited our country and said that we The people are still with your. The should take the initiative for building 1"sue to consider is, whether we are peace. so that the situation of war. with the people or not. The Hindus which is being created by Pakistan~ and Sikhs both live in Punjab. It may be brought to normal. So we will be our biggest fault, if we accuse took comprehensive confidence build- the entire sikh cOlnmunity for spread- ing measures and prepared a draft and ing terrorism, Some of our friends. sent it to Pakistan. It had two parts. Whl) think that sikhs are to be blamed One was related to the defence mat- for terrorism. Some peopJe think that ters and the other was related to the the interest of India can be safeguard- civilian matters. The civilian matters ed. through the division of the coun- were regarding Punjah. We gave try. This will never happen. them the names of all those places, where camps were operating and the names of the persons, who were giv- We should keep in mind the im- ing training there and are thus en· p'ications of that message, which was couraging terrorism. But till now, we p1ssed by the Pakistan to the terro- haven'!t received any reply {rom rists and intercepted by us that they Pakistan regarding the peace build- should now selectively kill the Hindus. ing issue. Inspite of three meetings It Wt;tS also said in that message that beJd between the Foreign Secretaries hindu-sikh riots should be engineered. of both the sides, no reply has come We are fortunate that inspite of such from their side. I had also raised this things. the hindu-sikh relations are question before the Foreign Secre- not strained. But we should be cau- tary/MiDister of Pakistan, but no tious about complaconcy. It should reply was given. When they do not not happen that due to our unaware- want to reply. it shows that they have ness Pakistan may become succC$sfuJ some particular intentions. You may in its desians Now, we should !)ay remember that recently America has attention towards our surrouudinp. stopped aid to Pakistan keeping it in Today t·wo major changes have come view that Pakistan has made a neutron in Punjab. 'Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, bOptb. Now, what is the logic in it after the ll.t Parliamentary elections. that we slaould keep our eyes dosed J think that the attitude of the liths and only hold discussions on the towards tfu, Qmtre has claall'od. 1 issue1 It will be foo1ish of us. if we don't say dtat oarU« it was riaht or 195 Discussion under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Punjab 196 Rule 193

[Sh. I. K. Gujrall A~ HON. MEMBER: It is good wrolll. It will make a long discussion Hindi. and pemaps parties will be involved in it. The feeling of annihilation in SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Thank you. the minds of sikhs residing in .Delhi I am confident that if one has to teach is no more there now. The sikhs are Punjubi or Telugu, Gurumukhi or as unhappy as the Hindus due to ter- Tamil, it should be taught with affec- rorism. They are rather more un- tion, not on gun-point. In this coun .. happy to some extent because three try. where 80 per cent of the popu- districts on the border are sikh domi- lation is illiterate, how can we teach nated areas. It is not a good thing them Punjabi or Tamil by using force. to count the corpses. It is very un- We are Punjabis. our culture is Pun- fortunate that first of all we try to find jabi and we are proud of our culture. out whether he sikhs have been killed We speak Punjabi and are living only or the Hindus. Whoever has been due to it. But we should keep thi!5 in killed is an Indian, whether he is an mind th 11 to force people to change innocent sikh, Hindu or Punjabi. thelr culture and to dictate them about This should always be kept in the their dreslil ~nd about their language mind. Shrimati Bima! Khalsa has l'ut h a very dangerous trend. It leads us it in a very polite way that workIng towards hscism. instc'ld of democracy. of the Police in Punjab is not at an Those. who are encouraging such satisfactory. There is corruption. In- trend in our country. are not aware nocent people are arrested and money of the risk involved in it. The Pun- is extorted from them. The atmos- j3bis are Jiving in the e:ltire world phere inside the police stations is not and this is a matter of pride. 'vVe good. It should be our first duty to are proud of it. I am among those, correct this situation and we will have who praise the initiative taken by the to do it. The people are more fri- Hon. Prime Minister to hold talks ghtened today. with Shri Mann. It is in the record that on 31st December. I gave a state- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you go ment on behalf of the Punjabi group through the newspapers of Kashmir that talks should be held. Such things or the newspapers of Punjab, you sh?uld not be said that first you do will find all these facts there in the thIS or that. I assume that there is form of advertisements. 1 have some no need to suggest the Prime Minister of them, which have come out in the or for us to say that we have full "Tribune" in the last week-some- flith in the umty and integrity of one is saying that he wi] t not do that our coullitry and no one can divide us. work, as he has changed hi" habits Where does such a question of divi .. and his occupation and one SHO is sion arises. Therefore, this is not saying he is being wrongly suspected. acceptable. Now a demand is being He is saying to the terrorists to spare made about self-determination. But him as he is an innocent person. Such this is not in the interest of anyone, a situation has been arised. But I will whether they are Punjabis. Hindus or not held these people guilty for such Sikhs. Leave alone the loss to the a situation. We ourselves should be country. Therefore, I praise the accused for not being alble to change steps and the initiatives taken to solve this atmosphere of terror. It is also the issue of Punjab. A new Governor a fact that the people are being forced has been appointed there. We wilt to ohange their culture on gun-point. provide full cooperation to him. It We have to pay attenion in that re- is very unfortunate that nOW a days gard. J am not saying that we should it has become a common practice to not s~ Punjabi language. t myseU cange the Governor of any state now speak this language and you may have and then. That day, I was trying to observed that the type of Hindi I count the number of Governors that speak, is highly il)fluenced by Punj4bi have been changed in Punjab in the and Hindi ...... (Ifllerruprions) last 10 years. I am a little weak in 197 Dlscr4ssion under PAUSA 21, ]912 (SAKA) Situation in Punjab 198 Rul~ 193

mathematics, that is why. I have for- reasons to them for the iOllbility to gotten all. I don't know how many construct a latrine, a sewer line Governors have been changed. I will or a road there. When we are ready be greatfull to anyone who can tell to spend on forces, on pollee. why me the exact number. May be no one we are not prepared to spend on will be able to tell. But there is no development work. The Govern- doubt that no issue c~n be solved ment should ch ange its policy regard ... by merely changing the Governor. ing this issue. Unless we change our The Punjah problem also cannot be policy, we will have to face a lot of solved by only changing the Gover- problems and there will be increase in nors. There are some basic issues them. Just now, Shri Bhajan Lal has on which, we have to build up a mentioned some issues here. It would consensus in the country. It was have been better. if he hadn't raised rightly said by an hon. Member here them. What can I say to Shri Bhajan that nothing C:ln be achieved without La I, who gives suoh suggestions that consenSllS. On1y making al1egations Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pra· and counter-allegations on each other desh should be merged into one State will make th~ matter worse. This He himself is a very experienced per- country and this l-Iouse will have to son. May be, he has more experience raise this issue collectively. It is about aligning or breaking. But I do being said that security forces should not aeree with him. I also do Dot be sent there. But in my opinion, the agree -with him, what he mentioned use on secudty forces should be done ~l,bout the Anandpur Sahib resolution. in a very careful manner, because He may remember that in the Longo- they cannot so1ve all the problems. If WJ] AJlreement, issues were mentioned the sect1rity forces are sent and the regarding the Anandpur Sahib resolu- issue is not solved. it will incurr more tion aiso. It was said at that time loss to the country, T accept that there that it is being sent to the Sarkaria i~ unemployment problem in Punjab. Commission. This was said by the Shri Dines'h Singh has rightly said Prime Minister. I am not accusing that Puniab ha~ t'le highest percapita him. but this was not good. in come in our c()untry. But that does not mean that every Punjabi is pros .. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the nerOtls and the income of every Pun- ~nd. I would only like to submit that jalbi is higher than other people in the not on1y there is the need of consen· country. The unemployment is a big sus, but with unity, we have to accept factor. You can say that this pro- the diversity of our country also. The blem is prevailing in tbe entire coun- ,c;ikhs are the symibol of unt~ in diver- try, but when any disease aggravates, si,ty in our country. They have their you have to prevent it. and jf it be- own language, culture and religion and comes serious, it has to be operated we praise those things, but they are a180. Therefore. we will have to take not someone exc1usive. We also fonow S0me strong steps in this regard and that religion. speak that language and have to pay attention to some other follow the Gurus. I,t is our country things in this regard. For the last 5-6 and our Jand. vears. no development work could be done in Punjab. I can tell you about my constituency, The Municipalities (En~iS'h] of Jallandhar, Kapurthala and Nako- dar do not have even 'Rs. 100 for deve. SHRT KAMAL CHAUDHRY lopment work except providing sala- I(Hoshiarpur): Hen. Deputy Speaker. ries to their employees. As a result, Sir. I tbank you for allowing me to the deve100ment work has comolotelv sneak on Punjab. On heariDg the stopped. 'Plans are prepared. Those debate today on Punjab. I have JOt plans are never implemented but 3 little bit disbearteaod. I have tot shown on the p~pers only. As a repre- my name deleted IUld left the House. t sentative of the people. I ,have to give came again because some of tbct 199 Discu!sion under JANUARY 11, 1991 Situation in Punjab 200 Rule 193

[Sh. Kamal Chaudhry] SlODS on most of the Members in this mCltlbers insisted that since I belong House for dOing nothing for Punjab to Punjab I should speak and hence and only indulging in mud"slinging on I rise to speak. My views on Punjab each other. A rmy was sent to Pun .. are very clear. I have spoken every jab by Chandra Shekharji. I am sorry year at least twice since April 1986. to say. the Government got weak· I am living my own life, not any kneed and reversed its stand stating one's borrowed life. that it had not been deployed, it had been sent to help the BSF on the Sir. tbe situation in Punjab has bot-der. Why not deployment? And been deteriorating. However. it was why only deployment in a few districts in 1989 the Central Government l1'1der ~llong the border which helps the tbe leadership of Shri Rajiv Gandhi terroriqts? Since it w~s publicised by brought the situation in Punjab under rhe Government itself. the terrorists control with Shri Siddarth Shankar were given sufficient time to shift to Ray a9 Governor and the terrorists other districts. move to Pakistan and were made ,to run out of Punjab. Then. come to districts like Hoshiarpur. the Punjabi migrants started coming Roper, patiala. Ludhianl, Jullundur. back. The atmosphere was made Arnbala. Delhi and other places. I conducive for elections and elections am ~orrv to say that what has been were held peacefully. However. after done in· Punjab l~ just mere a police the new Government took over in and bureaucratic bundobust which is December 1989 under the leadership heing dictated by the bureaucracy and of Shri V. P. Singh as the Prime the polke in Punjab. I had even used Minister with the support of the Left very very harsh words like 'eunuch' for and the Right th~ngs started deterio- a lot of official'i. 1 would not in· rating. Todav. we see what hali come dulge in it today. In this coun.try. of Punjab. There is no need to go in nnbody h' S .got guts to say somethIng. for any statistics. The writ of the let me say so today. People who terrorists runs in Punjab. The Govern- m? ke inflammatory speech-be it ment, be it at the Centre. be it in from Ourudwaras or otherwise. I Punjab succum1bed to the pressure of chanen~e them-be it a Simranjit the terrorists. H ukumnrJmQ was given Singh Mann. Adndar Pal Singh or by the so called Panthic Committee anybody-to stop pllying wi,th the of Dr. Saban Sin¥h. The Government innocent people who do not have did not even walt for 24 hours and weapons. If they have guts. they can it implemented that Huklllnnalna start .. tryout a person like me. I do move ing from 22nd November 1990 with around with weanons. And it is not the Doordarshan giving in to the iust the serurity which is provideod by pressure cby the terrorists. The terro- the Government which is protectin'! rists are an honoured commodity in me. T am trutbful to this nation. T Punjab today. They are called Khor. have the blood of my Father Chaudhrv koo.r. P'unjabi. which ('ouId not be Ralvir Singh running itt mv veins. I enforced in Punjab by an sorts of h9ve spent 21 years in the Indian Air Governments_ was implemented imme- Force. Unfortunately. I belong to a diately. In the Punjab Secretariat, all minority community in this nation. I the Secretaries chanRed their name am an Indian. The word 'minority' plates into Punjabi. The colour scheme is unf<1rtunatf'ly stamoerl on me be- as dictated by the terrorists was ac- ca uc;e there were hardly any Indians cepted by evety o~e. Be it the beauty in this country. parloun it) most of the major cities of PUlljlib which are being c10sed I would a~ain apolo~isc for using d6Wn fOr th., WOmen, be it the dress the this b¢en thec;e harsh words. I haVe spent worn' by ladles. has th~se five years in the Indian National ettglnMred_";'_Y "'bUta like to use this and true disci- the Congress as a strong word-by Government itself. I plined soldier of this party. 1 would must be pardoned for castillg asper. like to say it agam and request this 201 Dl,cltllWII tmtJ., PAUSA 21. 1912 (SAKA) Situation In Punjab 20. Rule 193 whole nation and tho whale HOUle to Shri Advaniji said ~t "hen Shri get down business for getting peace v. P. Singh visited Golden Temple. for Punjab and help this Government a rousing welcome was given to him. for that. He has himself admitted that the at- mosphere at that time was very 1000. But we lost that initiative. I have just As far as talking to terrorist is con- listened hon. Shri Gujralts speech. cerned, it is me who had been saying He has not put forward any solution throughout that even those who do in his speech. All that he said was not accept the Constitution, who have a sort of warning that we must change weapons in their hands, those who our foreign policy particularly with want to fire and kill people. call them, reference to Pakistan. talk to them if they want. But if they talk any nonsense. they have no right to live. I have been taught for 2 t Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I bave years in the same nation that enemy seen the old times. In a way, I too of the nation must be eliminated. was a refugee. I was a student in Lahore in 1947 and came here as a refugee after partition. I was AD As far as development and other activist in the student wing of tho things are concerned. what is needed Congress Party at that time. There today is just peace in Punjab. Just was a tussle between Urdu and Hindi a few minutes back. we have passed at tbat time. An Urdu daily named a Resolution unanimously requesting NawJln Jung used to published from the world to prevent war in the gulf. there. I am saying the same thing. Let us not talk about other things. Let us When Punjab was divided into just talk about getting peace for Pun- Punjab and Haryana, the ratio of jab. I request all parties to unite Sikhs and Hindus at that time in in fighting terrorism. You can fight Punjab was 54: 46.. Tod~y I w_as an ejection if you do not get into just having a chat WIth Shrt Bhafta. petty games that had been .tried to fonner M.P. from Amritsar. During divide the country on castebnes or the cou~e of our talks Shri Bhatia on communal lines. Let us. for some told me that the percentage of Hindus time stop this. I had ~aid so in Par- has now come down to 42 per cent. liament on the 2nd Apn1. 1986. I wish I told him that there was nothing to more than half of my speech was not worry. wby should we treat Hind~s expunged. I had said in that speecb, and Sikhs as two different communI- what has been happening all these ties. Shri Kirpal Singh is a. socialist. days and what is going to happen Just now, the representative from tomorrow Jlso. Hoshiarpur. Captain Chaudhary was speakin~. He is the son of Chaudhary Once again, I a{)peal to everyone to Balbir Singh who bad been my cot- help the Prime Minister. I ask the leap;ue when we were M.L.As. He Prime Minister also to stand up boldlv used to bear turban. I remember the and take firm action in PUlljab. Thank days when hon. Shri Bhim Sain you. Sachchar sent police in plain ~lotJu:s inside the Golden Temle for InvestI- [TrtII1flatiorr] gation. Shri Sachchar had to ~ l?ar- don for this step. I had adVlsed SHRI CHAN» RAM (Hardoi): Indiraji against sending armed fo~ces Mrj Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, ~ inside the Golden Temple, but SInce feel sorry to kave inter~p~ed Shn , was very lowly placed in .the pa1'ty. GuiraIts speech 'although It IS rot my nobody heeded to mv adVice. 11tis habit to do so. but I must ask ~ few is a fact tha .. l had been an M.L.A. questions from him. I have dehbcra· in the State since 1952 and have ex- tely named him .tiut not ·with the ~n~ tensively tourecf the vilhurers of Am· tel\tion of luinuadoJl· . rlisar. . I bad beon •. Mioilter alto, 14-6 UJSfND/91 203 Discussion under Rule 193 JANUARY 11, 199] Sltfltltion In Punjab 204

rSh. Chand Raml theft daooity or OtAei- crime was com- Jt would be better jf we change our mitted in a particular area. a Sikh Hindu stance. If we could give more family used to be settled there. whicll concessions to the Sikhs in Punjab, used to be taken as guarantee of nOD- the problem could be solved. recurrence of that crime in that area. This was the influence carried by the Shri Oujral has given a few suggcs- Sikh community. wby they have tions including the one that a paper Then taken to terrorism today? I remem- should be set in Punjab. industry up ber. Master Tara Singh having de- we provide more If could concessions manded four castes to be included in to Punjab treating it as a part and by the list of scheduled castes. That parcel of India~ the problem would was his last demand. This also re- be solved. As he has Punjab said. minds me of Gurcharan Singh Tohra's produces enormous quantity of food- speech which he delivered- in Rajya grains and, as such, per capita income Sabha. He had asked for 'lcceptance in the State is high. But at the same 14 demands of his party. time Shri Qujral has said that it does of minor but the government did not accept not mean that every Punjabi is rich. them. You just go through the de- Why do not we welcome the talks bates of Rajya Sabha and see that with Shri Mann or other concerned? speech in which he had said that if An initiative in this direction has these 14 minor demands were not been taken and it is our duty to create accepted. a day would come when conductive atmosphere for holding such many more demands would be plac .. talks. He has said that the people ed. Without casting any aspertions complain about the killing of innocent on anybody, I would say that if we people by the police. I agree that want to solve this problem. we shall divergent view has been expressed in ha ve to shed narrow mindedness. If the House on the such issue. i\U proper treatment is given to Punjab views should be taken into considera- whose contribution to the country is tion and such a policy should be for- tremendous. T think this problem no Punjabi mulated under which could be solved. I congratulate the should feel that excess has been com- hon. Prime Minister for taking initia .. mitted against him. He said that he tive in that direction and hope that gave a great sacrifice for the freedom he would succeed in finding solution of the country. I had also been to to this problem. If he is able to do Andaman Jail and when I went thr- that~ he' wouJd earn the goodwill of ough the list of those who gave sacri- a very large part of the country. fices, T found that the names from Punjab were fairly large. Whatever steps we take today in Punjab should With these words, I thank you for be viewed from Punjab's angle and giving me time to speak." not from Sikh's angle. T think, that will ofter a solution to the problem. SHRI RAMKRlSHAN YADAV T was born to an untouchable. But (Azamgarh): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, the position of untouchables. which Punjab problem is a very serious comprise 20 per cent of the popula- problem. In every session. it domi- tion, today is that they arc not treated nates the proceedings in one form or even Hindus in as much as Sllme the other. which speaks of its serious· people. talk against giving . them reser- ness. But I think it is 1ike a diseases vation. They continue to suffer ex- which aggravates with each doze of cess even 40 years after independence. medicine. If the situation deteriorates. Sometimes I doubt if we Hindus have tbe Governor is chan,ed. new ordi· removed untouchability from our so- nances are issued. army. police and cie~. There was a time when it was other para military. forces are ~~p •. oblll.tory on tbe part of every Hind", toyed. but tbe Punla:b prob1e.m is" family to make at least one of their nowhere Dear solution. I P:ersonADy faMily members sikh. Thus they WC(e feel that there is a his ~iraey be- caned Guru Nanat's followers. If hind it. The societY .~n ~! .~~1Itry il o t lOS Discussion u12der Rule 193 PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Situatioll ill Punjllb 206 su~b. that the followed of a particul.r _ MusaJman ke do hi sthan, r~hglon treated are as respectable ci- Pakistan aur kabristan." tizens whereas those who do not fol- low that religion are subjected to in- sult and treated as untouchables. The (Hindi-Hindu-Hindustan. from where caste syst~m which exists in our coun- have the Muslims come. There are trr treats some people respectable by only two pla~s for Muslims, Pakis- bIrth where~s others suffer indignity. tan aur kabrJstan) Th~ . sam~ IS true of religion. Some For Punjabis. they say~ rehgJ

SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA Speaker, Sir I would like to say tat (South Delhi): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Shri Chandrashekhar is tho Primo S11", I thank you for givmg me an Minister of the country, therefore, he . opportunity to speak. It is a very should say every word about the Pun- .senollS problem but 1 do not want to Jab after careful consideration. Be· go into its details because our leader cause fanners. shopkeepers and other aJid other Members of the House people in Punjab read his comments have already mentioned many things in the newspapers. It has appearca about it. I would like to draw your in the newspapers that 12 organisa- attention towards one thing only. In tions would participate in Chandra- the beginning Shri Kirpal Singh said shekhar-terrorists talk to be held in that such and such atrocities were this month and the Government have bemg committed on the Sikhs in given assurance for their protection. Punjab. I think it would have car· When such news appear in the news- ried more weight had he talked about papers~ they create apprehensions the atrocities committed on Punjabis among the people as to what will or on the people of Punjab. if atro- happen to Punjab. One more impor- cities are committed on the people tant thing I would like to say as has of Delhi or, any of the State we been said by our leader and other should not link it with the religion. speakers that. same thing is being Similarly, he should have said that repeated in Punjab as has been done atrocities are being committed on tJle in Kashmir--be it a question of people of Punjab. every one of us Hindi. singing of national anthem or would have asked to fight "gainst it wearing of dress. They are delibe- unitedly. Just now Shri Gujral has rately making attacks on our national said that his real brother is a Sikh. identity to show that they are sepa- so be cannot make any difference bet- rate from rest of the country and ween Hindu and Sikh. People came ha ve no similarity with the country. to' Punjab from other States and also They want to show that whatever from Pakistan and they are all Pun- dress ladies may wear in other parts jabis. Their problems are common of the country but in Punjab they and we cannot count the problems of would wear salwar-qamiz only. Hindi Hindus and Sikhs separately. may be read in Hindustan but they would read Punjabi only. Like Kash- I would like to say two-three points mir, same things are being repeated to the Government. particularly to in Punjab also. Like Kashmir, ad- Shri Chandrashekhar. He has made vertisements are being published in certain remarks which has created the newspapers. There are Inany such nUsunderstandings among the people. advertisements and Shri Gujral has F1rst comment he has made on 14th also mentioned about them. Our December in Chandigarh before the leader Shri Advani bas also said that press reporters that States can have he has such advertisements with him. a right to self-determination and if Even a colonel used to say that he others get such rights, the people of had 'not. given the shop for opening Punjab should aiso get that. Secon- wine shop and he is' going to vacate dly. he made another remark on 2200 it. He assured the terrorists not to December at Press Club. WhHe re- su~ect him. Such things are hap .. plying to the rress reporter he said pening there in. Punjab. The inci· if aspirations 0 people of Punjab are dents of Kashmir are also being fulfilled and the problem is solved. ~epeated in Punjab. the Government is prepared to talk to mUe amendments in the constitu- I would like to submit 5-6 IU~ tion. The Oovernment do not want tions in brief. First of all I would to come in the wa,.y of the politJcal like to say that the Government WI" of the people but the problem should declare that DO talk will be can be sOlved only within the frame- held witla the tenvrlsts d1l they live wcxk of the ~tioD. Mr. T.)eputy up the demand fQr lChaliitan. If 1109 DbtussloPl un_ Rule 193 PAUSA 2]} f912 (8AKA) Situation in Punjab 210

you see at page 9 1011 will find that when the previous Governmont fint the 'WOld "Indo Sikh" bal been men .. deferred the question of election. I tioned there. alone opposed it. To my mind, that was tho first miBtake that the previous [Englfsh] Government did which was later on accepted by the Prime Minister as a Operation Blue star was a water- Himalayan blunder. Then. when the shed in Indo Sikh affairs. second time thoy deferred the elec- tion. that was even a more serious ( TrOllS'kltion] blunder and DOW we are reading tho statistics as to how many Dumber of What is the meaning of Indo..sikh? persons were killed. the number of A. atated by Shri Mann that Indo- weapons recovered and how their at- Sikh implies for both Hindustan as rocities are increasing bere and there. weD for Sikh.. It is not two country like Sino-Indo. The Government We have created this dis~ase and we should clearly say that it will not are lamenting over that. What Pun- talk to those people who say like jab situation warrants is a bold step. thil. The terrorists hideouts in Paki- We must have talks with them. We atan should be closed. security belt should not be afraid of talks. We should be created along the border should talk with them and only then and intelligence agencies should be we can solve this problem. This pro- geared up. The terrorist's network blem cannot be solved by appoaae- for kidna ppU1g the people should be ment or oppression. Can police or aroken. Due to the shortage of time CRPFt or BSF taclde this problem? I cannot explain these points in de- Several Members have suggested that tails. The Govommcnt should take We should send army there. I would finn steps without giving any consi- like to ask. can army tackle this pro- derations to the votes. blem 1 The main problem in Pun" jab-not only in Punjab but in the I would like to request to the hon. entire country-is that tho forces of Prime Minister that no talk should be disintegration are more determined held with Shri Mann for the Punjab than the forces of integration. That problem because he is perhaps not is the main problem. We have to even spokesman of the terrorists. redirect the social motivation. Com· There is a fear in the mind. of the munalists are more militant than the minority community in Punjab. Sir, secularists. How can you fight with through you. I would like to say that them? Can we win over the com- before holding a talk on Punjab munalists by dialogue? If this was problem, people of minority commu- the thing then India would not have nity in Punjab shouJd also be taken been divided. Sir, it is a lesson be· into confidence. fore us. The communalists. the seces- sionists ad racists are to be confron- With these words I conclude. ted on the ground. The difficulty ill our country which we are heariq in (E"lfhhl 80 many words, is that our procell of development has created a dill SHRI A. K. ROY (Dha!1bad): Mr. which is MODOJ'C)lising tbe politics in Daputy Spea1cer. Sir9 the so-called every sphere. The entire attentioa Khalistsnir 80 long uSed to hurt us of this class is towards disintegration: with AK-41 rifles phy&icany but by towards communalism and towlldl their dittats they have touched our secessionism. The entire llOD-pIQ- Jut sense of prtstite and hun our ducdve. ~sitie class who are earn .. hODOUr. It Is good that this HOUle is iftS money by different waya are ROW there dilt1Jssiag this issue as to how eommancti1l1 the poHtica atut produc- to relJ)ODd to this clJaUenge to OUt tie ~ ltave .. mto die 'bIak. natioaJ' hoftour. YOll Dow .. ,road. . .. 2It Discussion under JANUARY 1J, J991 Situation in Punjab 2J2 Rule 193

ISh. A. K. Roy1 unions. That means, this is a move- ment. this is an affront. this is a poli· Sir, there will be a communal tical aggression of the ruling class to struggle ana secessionists will have cowdown the real struggle of the an upper hand. What is the remedy down-trodden people. So, We should against the comm unal struggle? Is have a view on that. How caD this the remedy lies in giving the economic problem be tackled? We should re- packages? These economic packages member two or three things in this will become bon us for the terrorists. regard. Instead of making theories, If in West Bengal the same thing is we should learn from the examples. to take place. they should also get Ooe example has come from Dhanbad. AK·47. If this is the way of develop- In Dhanbad, the terrorists are obey- ment in the country, let them spell ing the diktats of the KhaUstani out that if we resort to terrorism, Or militants of Punjab. What happened if we arm ourselves with AK·47 then in Dhanltycld? They went there to we will also ~et the economic pac- loot a bank. They collected the kages. We wdl start doing this from money. At that time. they were tomorrow onwards. confronted under the leadership of Shri Randhir Verma. S.P .. Dhanbad. Immediately, the people rallied. Shri Sikh~ are not the tribals; they are Randhir Verma was gunned down. not Assamees, harijans or down trod- His Security Guard. who was accom" den class. Sikhs are the ruling class panying him. was also injured. But, of the country. They are the highest then, the commOn people, the civi- earning group in the country. They lians. jum~ and grappled with aU have the highest say in the Govern- these terrorists. As soon as the com- ment. Though their percentage is mon people. the civilians came into only one percent, their say in the the picture. they were also shot at. Government is always morc than any Along with the S.P .• one customer, other community. They are in our who was a common man. when he body politics. Now, the ruling class found that the S.P. is faUing, he also has become more aggressive than the iumped at the terrorists. He was also ruled. If you read the killed. His name was Shymal Chak· raborthy. He was an employee of 19A9 hrs. [MR. SPEAKER iI, the the Indian School of Mincs. I went Clwit ] to Dhanbad and had talks with the DIG and the Chief Secretary of Bihar. ne"~'spaj1erS, will fL1d ~\) many clashes They also felt demoralised. take place: there are so many killings and so many deaths take place. But So. as soon as the common people they fight not for a correct cause. A came into action. those terrorists struggle is going on to strengthen the started running and ultimately they grip of the ruling class on the people. took shelter in a house. Actual1y, T~day in Punjab, who are the KltaIi· they were made captive by three la- stanis? They are those who have die~"" They went inside the house and AK-47 with them. They are not the started hiding under a cot. I went to exploited people. They are not for that house also. They were tied those who are being" exploited or who down. They started questioning are below the poverty Hne. )t is them; "Who are you; bow have you for" the Khalistanis or the terro-- come here?" At that time, the Po- fists who have come from 'the ruling lice came and got them arrested. ~ectiOft ann with their coming. the en- Another person was also arrested by tire 'democratic struggle has gone to the people in a tea shop. That the background. We have never heard means, the initiative of the people is a ,fiahtin!! between an a~rieutturnl ta- a must. It requires Leadership. So bourer and the owner. We' have 80t fur. all the parties who are Jiving seen a fighting between the trade different advises and who are haVin~ 213 Discussion under PAUSA 2], 19]2 (SAKA) Situation in Punjah 214 Ruff 193 their organisation in Punjab, they made us communal. The nation bas should go there. they should give taken to a bad practice. There is their leadership and they should con- now the public sector, and the private front with them. If you confronl sector. But what bas ftourished i!ii with those extremists, then they will the self·sector. It is above aU a solf· become pa per tigers. If you start sector. So, to hell with the country 4 fearing them, then tbey will come out hell with the society. hell with every .. as reat tigers. That is the real point thing, only thing is our ."seJr'. If which you sbould keep in mind. It that becomes the motivatIon, then is not only here, but even in Puntab, why blame the gunmen? Today they the Police Officers are surrendenng. rule Punjab, tomorrow they will rule In this month's Iltflia Today they have in Delhi and everywhere. Then given a picture of gallant sikh, who where are we to go? Where will we was confronting with the militants. migrate? One migration we have al· He was living in the worst affected ready done. People cannot go on terrorists' area, where police are afraid Inigrating. That is the point. of the telTorists. Wherever there is l firing. the police use to flee. I will tell you what is the report. They I want the Government to think have said and I quote from India very seriously about this. After the Today that "Those actually fighting. Dhanbad incident, we have the Puru .. ironically don't even ,et paid for that. lia incident. There, six policemen Outer fringes of Bhlkhiwind village. were killed: fi ve citizens were there. one of the worst hit by terror, lies and they were killed. And Govern .. the house of Comrade Balwfnder ment is sitting idle. This is not a Singh (30) and his wife JagdiJh Kaur, law and order problem. When 1 raise both CPJ

20.00 1m. over Punjab problem is but natutal. I do agree that there is DO improve- ANNOUNCEMENT BY ment in the situatiol1 in Punja'l. It SPEAKER is also true that apprehensions and terror is there among the people of ~adea Re. Receipt of lDterim Punjab. But the situatioll has not .... from .R. Ca.n of IWId deteriorated to that extent that we cannot make efierts to improve it. [Ent/I.rh] Rut it is not true as some Member. MR. SPEAKBR : Before I call have said that it appears that Kha .. the Prime Minister, I would like to listan has been made there and no inform you about the latest observa- one is secured in Punjab. It is true tiop of the High Court. Here is a that some dictates have been issued letter. I had informed the House on by the so called terrorists there to 8 January, 1991 .bout the receipt of put some restriction one wearing a letter from the Registrar of the dresses and speaking a particular Ian.. High Court of Delhi forwarding there- guage. These dictates came into with a copy of an interim order force when these were discussed in passed hy the Divjsi,)Jl Bench of the Cbandigarh and they were followed by High Court of Delhi on M January, many Government departments also. 1991 directing that all the petitions A situation arised there when the presented hefoIC me under the Tenth Hindi bulletins from All India Radio Schedule to the Constitution shall not and Doordarshan were stopped. We: do not say that situation has taken be .P!oceeded with or pursued by the a drastic tum. That situation is not pet! tiOlJers. there in Chandiglrh. We have taken I have received today another letter certain steps and I do not want to from the Registrar of the High Court go into the details of those steps. of Delhi. forwarding therewith a copy Hindi bulletins have again been start- of in order passed by the Full Bench ed from All India Radio Chandigarh of the High Court of Delhi on 11 and Doordarshan Centre about ten January. 1991. The Full Benoh has days ago. Now, no one is harass- palled ,tho following orders: ing for wearing particular dress or speaking particular language there. ~'We ar~ prima /ocie of the opinion This has been the situation in Chan- that the Speaker has jurisdicuon to digarh for last one week. This has decide the question of disqualifica- happened because we tried to re- tion of members of Lot Sabha move the drawbacks existing in the l.lnder paragraph 6 of tbe 10th Sc- administration of Chandigarh. We hedule and the rules framed there- believe that it is the responsibility of undu on the petitions presented to the Government that every citizen . hbtl. So we vacate the interim should feel secured but I do not say order passed by us on 8th January, that no untoward incident would take 1991." place but we have provided enough security forces which were required Now me Pr~me Miniater. to provide security to the people and to boost morale and strengthening will power of the people. Such steps .,. h.... have been taken by the Government and the results thereof are also com- DISCVSSTON UNDER RULE 193 ing. before us...... Ia "'b-contd. f17on.tlationl .., . Mr. Speaker. Sir. 1 know that cer- tain things ate said because of the . 114'£ PRIME MlNISTElt (SHIll fear and in fear our own shadow SHEKHAR): Mr. leeks like a. gbost to us. . We can- r et. M\)Jr, Th.' ~ncems expressed opt· solv. the, probl~ liko: thit.. W. 217 Dllcuss;on IIndel PAUSA 21. 1912 (SAKA) Situation in Punjab 218 Rule 193

have to. resist the forces, which arc: ~o~racy s,ur'vives. the system of nego- working for creation of such pro- tIatIons win continue. But if there Is blems. Just 'DOW an hon. Member violation in negotiations and these from Dhanbad has rightly said that cross the limits the' results will not to dispel fear we have to face them be so good. The example cited by boldly. 1 agree that it is the duty of Mr. Khurana in his speech is cor- the Govemment and all of us to rect. I was listening to the recording create an atmosphere in which the of the press conference at my office. people can understand that terrorism I know what I have said, and what- or anything else can do no harm to t!ver has come in the press is correct. us. He raised a matter regarding the What did I Ray? A correspondent incident accurred at Purulia and asked me whether I was ready for Dhanbad. It is a tr-u,gk incident and a constitutional amendment, if there the Government is also concerned was such a demand? In my reply, 1 about it. I would like to inform the said, if it results in any solution and hon. Member that on the day of in- the amendment is acceptable to Par- cident, the Government have an- 1i~ment and does not come in the nounced highest gallantry award to way of unity and integrity of India, the deceased "S.P. Moreover. ade- we should not hesitate to consider quate assistance will also be given to it. I would like to know whether the 'family members of the deceased. Sarkaria Commission is not men- Just now 1 have received informa- tioned here almost every day. If the tion that all the three culprits in- constitution is to be slightly amended volved in the incident at Purulia and for giving more rights to the States Dhanbad have been killed. One of will it endanger the integrity. sove- them . was killed yesterday and two reignty and unity of our country? have been lrilled today. It is not So, whenever we talk of the constitu- that the Government and the adminis- tion here, and perhaps Shri Khurana tration have not taken any step in missed that sentence when I said that this direction but it is like a chro- there won't be any compromi$e on nic disease and its cure is not so the unity and~ integrity of the coun- easy. We have to make efforts to try. We have repeatedly said. whe .. cure th1$ chronic disease. I have ther anybody will mention it or not. listened to the speeches of the hon. that the basic duty of the Govern- Members. It is true that some times ment is to provide security to th,~ it creates apprehensions in the minds pu,bJic. There can be no compromise of- the people. If we talk to any on the issue of security. Honourable. one that may give wrong indication Mr. Speaker. Sir, I would like to also. I do not understand as to teU the people of the country and how we can block the path of mu- this House that if anybody approach. tual· talk. We have been trying for ed us for talks, I have frankly told last 6-7 years to find out the solution him that we can't tolerate the killing of problems by repressive measures of any innocent person. any if any b.ut if., we have not. succeeded in that innocent person is killed, it is the the Parliament of the COUlltry has fundamental duty of the government fer~ the, first time discovered the path to give an answer for that BDd also of mutual talk. Is it· not a fact that to bring round the violators. The wbe~ver we had discussions the re· gov~ment bas to fulfil this duty in spks .were always gooo? Not only any case. There won' be any dis- OI\C8. but man~ a time. we had dis- crimmanons. If I say that the name cussions. I do not want to go into of Simranjeet Sinsl!, Mann is free the illustrations, Bor do I want to quently mentioned, who says that 10 mk)., the complete history. Whe .. inn

ISh._' Chandra Shekhar] mean that Police and armed forces will be given a free band. We" have want to fix. the manner in which also said that jf any person is suffe- talks can be held. So if you give me ring in Punjab or bas any grievance a bint -regarding the manner of hold- or any injustke is done to anybody, ing the talks and the idiom to be he should approach us. We don't adopted, I would say that holding of want that any innocent person should talks won't be difficult for anybody. be killed and no inju.tice should be One should be clean .. hearted about done to innocent peOple. Govern- the circumstances. Our conscience ,ment wilt try its best to save inno- should be clear regarding the extent cent people. So we have told the to which we can go, T1le meaning of higher authorities to listen to such talks is not that if terrorists kin grievances. Govemment is also try .. some innocent person and our Police ing its best to listen to such comp- aDd security forces should sit idle laints. If any special arrangements and if it would have been like that arC' possible in this regard. we shal1 the government would have not taken have to do so. J would also like to the steps it has taken there in Chan- ~ay. that any officer should not have digarh last week. Not only that it i~ any such fear that after the ejections not so only in Chandigarh. Thad the new Chief Minister will harass told the top leaders about our them after assuming the power. then scheme on Punjab. When J am fre- I would assure all those officers quently told to explain it in detai1~ it through this House that whatever crf!ates some difficulty. At cer- steps they take in the responsible d is- tain occasions it is not feasible charge of their duties. whatever be to give out certtin details. But the consequences. the responsibility I would definitely 3ay that. we of their security, and the security of have certain1y said that WI.! will take their service will be taken by the Gov- .;teps with regard to the situa- ~rnment. We feel that there should tion in Ludhiana. Jallanc1har and be no doubt in their minds re· Amritsar in the same manner in gArding their security and welfare. which we have taken in case of We also know that there are some Chandigarh. so that the people there people who want that the feeling of can live with a sense of security. We terror should continue. So. I would have also decided that there are 128 have not said this in a casual man- villages where terrorism is at its ner, but a tendency is clevel"ping in peak. Special security arrangement~ Punjab these days that the (lffieers ehave been made for those vi11ng~s and should take every action after ~rious­ the action has been initiated there Iy thinking over them becau~ the for the last three days. We can·t wait government may change, and those for talks in connection with that. Be- people ap inst whom the officers are cause the situations are different. taking action today roay come in Dialoque with leader and a sense of rower. J would say tf, those office" security among the people should not and jawans of the $ecurity forces that' be mixed together. So the govern .. their responsibility is towards thjs ment has not hesitated to take ad- nation and its constitution. Ind ministrativ~ step'. Mr. Speaker. Sir, fhey should discharse their duties. through you J would like to convey The whole nation will follow them. to the House that it is not n~essary You won't be subjected to excesses that the government should declare or any injustice, or unjust attitude. about all the steps taken by it through I want to teU the forces clearly that the newspapers. There are certain they wontt have to face any danger limits, certain difficulties' in the ad .. if they faithfully .discharge d1ejr du· ministration itself. b!]t I assure you ties~ There is .other question. and that aU the necessary action for the that is,. some ~ple feel jealous ,,* s~urity of 1,ife woult1 be tJiken. J I anl~ when I talk to Shri Nawaz would also tell you that it does not Shanf ,oii"· til~Phdne~ The . ~ . Is ttl DI$eUSlIo" under PA.USA 21. 1912 (SA.KA) Sililalioll in PUlljab 222 Ruli 19) ~ . .. .

not known to me. Mr. Speaker. Sir, SHRI 1. K. UUJRAL: 1 never I .. ,talked to him thrice on telephone. said that. Third time 1 gave him a ring, and that too to know Pakistan's ap- [TranLS'lation] proach with regard to Gulf CrisIs. He was not availabJe. so 1 talked to ~HRI CHANDRA SHF.KHAR: him in the evening. I do not know If not you. somebody else nlust have why my friend Shri Oujral is feeling said. Mr. Speak~r. Sir. most hum.. angry on this account. Any way. I bly I would rel11ind you what respect him. He has a thorough Mahatma Gandhi had said. He was knowledge of foreign policy about assassinated on 30th January. 1948. which I know nothing nor have J before that he hdd ~uid to the whole visited any foreign country. I have nation: hMy first job would be to gone abroad a few times. so I claim go to Pak.istan b\.!ca ll~e we have been a little knowledge of foreign policy divjded into two. hut we are one like brothers." We ',hall ha ve to folio" .. . ..(1 nterrupt;o/1.S) the path of friendship. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was the Prinle SHRI PRAKASH KOKO BRAH- Minister of thi~ ~ounlry f~)r I i years. MBHA TT (Baroda): Last time. you He also confronted ull ~ ind~ of diffi- visited many countries, G~Heva and culties and problem.... De~pite these other plac~s. difliculties he tn~d to improve rela- tions with Paki'il..lll. Diplonlatk- SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: level discussions \\ ere held with J don 't ~ay that J am at home in Pakistan on sev1.:rdl occasjon~. Mefn~ dlplomacy. Mr. Speaker. Sir, If bers will reca]) at teJ~t s,'me of the anybody giv\!s mt! a ring should I incidents. say to him that ] don~t want to talk to him on phone! Sir, i51 it not true that after the L SfiRI I. K. GUJRAL (JaJlandhar): 1965 war Shri L~I Hahadur Shastri Nobody can object to this. went to Tashkent for talks? Is jt not true that Shrintati Indira Gandhi SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: held wlks with Z.A. Bhutto at Simla If somebody tell nle on pnone that and the Sinlla Af!reem~nt was the be wants to improve relutions with result thereof'! Fi()m 1947 to J990 us. should 1 tell him: No, we don~t Indian po!itics ha~ had a traJitiol1 of want to improve relations with you. solvinJ problems through mutual dia- We want to strain the relation~. If logue. So why !\hould there be any thf.! Prime Minbter of Pakj~tan is reluctance to adopt the same course eager to improve relations with us in 1991'! Ihould I oppose it what are the jn- tentions.. objects of Pakistan is a different question. (/nterruptioQJ') SHRI SHARAD YADAV (Bu- daun): Sir, none of the nlemhers (Engli$h) present here is diagreeing to that relations should be \.'Ultivlted but in (Interrupt;ons) a cautious manner. This is what PROF. MADHU D,\NDAVATE the members want and not what the '(Rtjapur): You have n·.i_'understol)d Prime Minister is trying to .insinuatc. him. (English1 SHRI SOMNATH CHAT1"ERJEE (BoIpur): He has not said that. SHRI I. 1(. GUJRAL: Particu .. ( larly I would like to clarify here be- PROF. MAOHU DANDAVATE: cause J talked about India and Paleis. Mr. :Gu,ral "is the last ]l'et50n to say t:rn relations that the point that m, "t. . . hon. friend, Mr. Prime' MiniSter, IS 223 Dlsl'ussion under JANUARY 11, 1991 SitU4titm in PwfIob Rule 193

[Sh. I.K. Gujral] been done. No work was ·doDe making. I am totally with it. 1 have during tbe last year. By April the no difference of opinion on that. entire length of 2SS kilometres will have barbed-wire fel'lcing. Flood.:.. [Translotion] lights have been installed upto 6S Kilometres and work on the rest is SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: being undertaken. I even asked the Sir, the statements by Shri (iujral Border Roads Organisation to finish and Shri Yadav have bO(lstcd my Jthe remaining work. The con- morale. As to the question of tractors. who are installing wires. being cautious. caution is not obser- have been told to complete the worl ved in talks alone. Caution is ob- by April failing which they will have served by increasing our level of to pay penalties. We have been preparedness. No effort is being given an assurance to that effect and spared on that account. If Pakis- I see no reason why should not the tan or any other country has a bad \\ork be completed by April. But that intention towards India and thinks will not solve the problenl because, tha t India can be cheated by sweet Sir, a .large part of the border cannot talk, is fooling itself. Let no coun- be fenced. This area consists of bar- try have any wrong ideas about ren land, rivers and ·nullahs'. I am India. Sir, may I inform hon. not very familiar with that terrain Members that even though we are but those who are~ say that fencing having discussions VJith an open heart is not possible in that area. there is an underlying caution in our approach. We do not believe For security on the border. the in the political interpretation of such Border Security Force and the Army matters that talks are being he1d on t)as been deployed. All this is not a friendly note but intentions are ~ecret. If we deploy army on the anything but friendly. India is (border, we intimate Pakistan that sincere about ha ving friend ly rela- we are doing so to chock infiltrations. tions with Pakistan. If Nawaz To the political leaders of Punjab Sharief says that he wants friendly a Iso I have said that a ccording to relations with India, then I believe them the disturbances are caused by him. What he actually does to smugglers~ boot leggers and anti- achieve it depends on him. social elements nnd if we deploy army there to check tl\eir activities. they Sir9 some members said that camps should not have any c(lmplajnt against are being organised ill Punjab. We our action. Whatever we are" doing, are aware of that and understand is being done .. , openly. Of course, that such things create tension ia the I am at fault fOt" not taking the Press country. Whenever there is an into confidence before taldng any opportunity I rai~e this issue. My step. We have not publidsed. our repeatedly saying that such camps actions through the Press and I con- exist, will not change the situation. sider myself fully responsible for that. Such training camps do exist and Secondly, the local people will have we are trying to deal with this situa- to be given some facilities. The tion. process of recruitment to the Border Security Force has started there. Sir, the steps Ita ve been taken and Till some days back nobody was hon. Members want to know what interested in joining D.S.F., but nOW these steps are. For a long time many people are comins. there had been a proposal for barbed... wire fencing on tbe Indo-Pak border. Special opportunities are being Till one year back fencing had been offered to them for entry into the done in about 80. 90 or J00 kilomet- armed forces. The Government is res. The present position is that ij taking steps for the immediate implt- 120-122 kilOmetres of ftncing bas mentation of the recommendatiOllS .... .DfIaullo" under PA-USA 21t 1912 (SdKA) Situation in Punjab 226 Rule 193

.' respect of Punjab so that normalcy an assurance. It would be betttr is' :restored in tho State. But I don't if Shri Dandavate says that nobody .have a magic wand that can provide should give such an assurance. In an instant remedy for a wound that po1itic~ it has become a practice l\~ ~lii~ ff>r the- past 10 years. 1 rto gIve assurances regardless of have lW'IJDiraculous powers to create IWhether they can be met or not. .a 1~~a81 Rajya' in a place that has There are many ~xamples that can be SCOIt so much turmoil in the past. quoted in this context but that will 'We must have patience, self-control n~t s?lve the problem or change the _lUi self-c:onfidence. I am proud to SJtuatIon. say that majority of the State's popu- lation is 'Opposed to these tendenclcs. 1 would like to tell the leader of Despite all efforts they have not been the Opposition that we rna y not have able to instigate c(.Ilumunal riots taken the Press into confidence or there. Today there were some dis- consulted with other hon. Members turbances in Patiala but in the even- before taking steps but we did try ing we were informed that the situa- to seek the advk~ of leaders of tion is under .;ontrul. Tin now DO various political leaders. A t that incident in Punjab has taken a com .. time our colleague Prof. Madhu mtlnal colour. Dandavate and his leader were Dot present and so 1 could ttot Jet them I am confident that every citizen know about it. of Punjab will foil any con~piracy to lend communal colour to incidents in . I know that there are many leaders Punjab. I have also been informed In that party. but due to certain that tltere is scepticism about how a reasons I couldn't invite them. I am p4rty of 62 melnbers can amend the sorry for that and I want them to 'Congtitutt.ion. 1 don't know much forgive me for this act of ombsion on about politics but this much I know my part. However, if Prof. Madhu that ... (I hterruptions) Dandavate tells Ine about the people. who ought to be invited, then r shall • AN. HON. MEMBER: Who said certainly invite them. I would cer- So? :' tainlY· like to mention here that I have • i informed the leaders of all parties. ~ -SHRt :·CHANDR;\ SHEKHAR: including that of the B.J.P. the I t is not proper to name anyone. An C.P.J. the C.P.I(M) and the Congress amendment in the Constitution will Party ill detail about the Govern- be made with ~vel)'one's consent and ment's intentions, the Govemmenfs it is not a question of a patty of plans, our constrains. our weakness 62 members making amenuments in and the difficulties we face, because the ' Constitutio".~ It is not that I the weakness of the Government is can- give an assurance to someone not just our headache. it is of all of that I shall amend the Constitution. us. I t is of entire nation, it is some- It is others who give empty assu- thing which this Government has in- railceg. not me. I am aware of the herited from its predecessors. How- [itnitations within which we have to ever. here I don't mean to say that a viork and I re~trict my actions within particular government is responsible thOse limitations. The days of for the weakness, which permeates giv'i~ 'empty assurances have gone our national life to day. We should and ~ people should not mind it. an give a serious thought to it.

"PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE Many of out friends wondered: O!aj~iiur): ~ -.NO;bqdy wjJl give su~ as to why in the name of caste and ~,a~ce;.i' religion .•. (lntmuption.r) · "SHItI!' CHA·NDR'A' SHEKRAR~ PROF. MADHU DANDAVATB: IttlJi 1101 tlral llobody win live such J 'Would' lite to make a clarification; 227 Di,c~slon unde; JANUAJtY 11, 1991, 'Situation in Punjtlb 228 Rule 193

(PrQf. Madhu Dandavate] come the suggestions of one and alL in~luding the hon. Members, to solve l!st, you have any misund~rstandinl. thIS vexed problem. , We received your invitation too tau to attend the meeting. otherwise, we would have definitely responded to'it. I w~uJd conclude, a~r putlin. lor- We have never ignored the invitation ward Just one more potnt. While for- of any Prime Minister. Such a tJ1lng mulating the plan, we ha'fe taken iDto h~s never happened in the past and c~nsideration each and every suges- won't happen In the future as tlon and letters that the Govemment .,n. the Ministry of Home Affairs, bad SHR! CHANDRA SHEKHAR.: 1 received in the last one year. All do not say that you didn't tum up those suggestions, which were found intentionally. I do accept that the reasonable and practical were incor- delay might have happened on our porated in the plan. We did not just part. but I would like to mlike a t~ke into conside~ati('):l, the sugges- humble submission to you that we tIons we have receIved in the past should sit together and seriou&ly two months. since we a~sumed office. ponder over this issue. because if we Rather. I had prepared a list of aU close the door~ of negotiation. then t~e suggestion~ receh ~\J by the pre- the only option left before us w('uld VIOUS Government, of which 1 was a be that of talking at the point of part. We are endeavouring to chalk bayonet. which I am sure is not the out a programme. taking into consi· right and easy way to solve such deration, all those suggestion~, so eomplex problems. We believe that that no one may have any grievance. the process of dialogue should con- We removed the deficiencies. wherever tinue. We would Hke one and all to we found it. We would certainly come to the negotiating table and come across many such deficiencies. thrash out a solution. untiJ we are able to re~tore nOlmalcy and establish an atmosphere of peace and tranquil1ity in that State. My friend. Shri Madan Lal Khu- rasa had, who is the well wisher of minorities, suggested that we should Lastly. I would like to say one give a patient hearing to the views of nlore thing. We would certainty like the minorities in that state. I did have to hold elections in Punjab. Alth· talks with them. Rather, it \\ as with ough, we are very enthusiastic and them that T held t8 lk~ first. I had committed about holding polls 1n that told them that the Government is State. we aJso believe that the people aware of their problems and difficul- of Punjab. especially those clamour .. ties. ing for elections 7 should cOlne forward and endeavour to create an atmo~­ SHRI K. C. TYAGI (Hopur): You phere conducive to elections. How is should hold talks with all the n1inori· it possible to hold elections. jf kill- ties in the country, not just 'With the ings, acts of terrorism and mutual minorities in Punjab. antagonism remains the order of the day_ Election is not just another for .. r SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR.: mality. Election is an event when We talk with everyone about the pro- crores of people come out of their blems confronting the entire nation. homes and eject a popular Govern- However. on the Punjab issue, I will ment. Democracy is, where people hold talks only with the people of are able to express their opinioQ Punjab. I would certainly like to without any fear or fervour. How is ~ve a better understanding, among it possible to hold elections. in an .U~ of us. Ch.awxs are that. we may atmosphere gripped with fear psycho- commit mistakes; we may take some sis? I won·t give blank .Surloces. hasty steps without giving adequate If elections are to be held in the tAot.fht ttl it.) pros and \ eons. there- State. then the douds of fear at1d fott" we would whole beartedly weI- terror, that have en¥eloped the State 229 l'Jlneussio" rmder PAUSA 21, 1912 (SA.leA) Situation in Punjab 2'30 Rule 193

SlfO{lI~. be removed and the responsi. rorists have also purchaAed . b\nd ~ bil!ty to -do this job, lies to a great these areas. Thirdly. I wou~d like to. extent, on the shoulders -of those de- ask .... manding elections in the State. I would like to assure them. that they .MR. SPEAKER.: I(amalji. plea$e dOh't 'have to fear about anything. take your seat. We are not haviftJ from the part of th~ government. The a question answer session. You have Govetnment has an open mind about made your submission. now you please sol\1ing the Punjab imbroglio. through sit ~own. consensus at:td through. dialogue. Thank you. (/Iflerruptions) SHRJ KAMAL CHAUDHRY: Shri Simranjeet Singh Mann and MR. SPEAKER: Leave it Kamalji, some office-bearers of the All India this is flot a question hour. 1 am Sikh Students' Federation (A.I- not in favour of any question .. answer S.S.F.) ...... ··· session. Please take your seat. MR. SPEAKER: Kamalji. you SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY have already mentioned it in your (Hoshiarpur): Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did speech. Please take your seat. not want to interrupt the hon. Prime Minister. in the middle of his speech. SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY: No. I would just like to ask him whether 1 didn't raise this particular point. he is prepared to give a befitting reply.. They have made many objectioaable including war. if it becomes clear to statements. I would like to know him later on that Nawaz Sharif is a whether you have tried to ascertaiL fraud and that he is bent upon des- the veracity of the stat.ementa attri- troying this country. unlike the pic- buted to these leaders? If they are ture that the Prime Minister has pre- found to be true. what action do you sented in this House about his Pakis- propose to take against them? tal'li counterpart. SHRl CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. Speaker I Sir, I would Uke ,to MR. SPEAKER: There was make ODe thing clear that I will con· nothing wrong in his speech Knmalji, tinue to talk of peace. till the laat y~u please sit down. moment" oven if Mr. Nawaz Sharif talks of war. everyday. War is f0uaht. when the situation demands it aDd SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY: as I had said yestetday, Tulsidas haa Secondly. he referred to Chandigarh said in one of his quartets: and three other districts. It is most distressing that everyone talks only oor K ! V ,L,J 'I7ahl about Amritsat. Gurdaspur and Fero- US Samar amz AarTl"n, A no apur only.' Today. Shri Chandra janavahin QQ(1, 'Shekhar also" . said that apart from V id'yomar Ran Poi Rlpu, Kt11t1r Cbandigarh. they ~ takIng neces- Kathhl" Pratapu" sary action in Amritsar. Patbla and .. ' .Lndhiana also: My concern is that Therefore. I 'won't indulge in meaD- tltis Q)Ocentration of action in selec.. ingless utterances. This is the first dy~, districts is proving, immensely point. We would like good sen Ie 'to ~lpful to the t¢~rlsts .. It:' my eon- PfCvail oyer everyone and· no O11e stituencv of Hoshiarpur as wen as in should taJk·of war. Mr. Speake~. Sir, Repar. these terrorists have purchase here. when through you. we are talk- ed hUD(lreds 'bf acres of land. Their ing of tbe need to ·put aft end 10 thO weJJ-wHhers' and sympathi$C1'S have . 'hostilities in ~ the "~ulf; at 'lea. ' I ~shifted ,to ·ttaose areas. 'l\foreover, won't talk '" 'Fin, into a -war 'wida "Police 'Olieiils and ':b~uerats9 who our DOiabbour •. J.W()uJd nOt Uke' ~ • ~'¥I .~ .poIted i. outl~_t ,atel ~ upotr",tbe seeoDd~lI\JiIIttbJL who are bud .•:"Yes·'. tb.·tor· that tlw Holt. Member 'has raiaea. 'bat 131 Progress in JANUARY 11, 1991: Bofors Case 232 investigations into

[Sh. Chandra Shekar] MR. SPEAK6R: What are you doing? The Bof

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI [Translation] CHANDRA SHEKHAR): Mr. Spea- ker, Sir, I would not have replied to SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: this baseless allegation if it had been How the files were tampered? How levelled against me only. But since the notings in the files were cut out charge has been levelled against the by the previous Government ...... ? Congress Party as well, I must make (InterruptiOns) ..... ' ... it clear that no Member or person of the Congress Party ever bad a talk regarding the Bofors issue with us. [English] (InJle"uptions) SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Though the then Prime Minister assur- [English] ed the House in regard to papers, he went back. Even now there is a SHRI P. R. KUMARAMANGA- LAM (Salem): The only thing that Government and there is the Prime Minister at the Centre. We shall re- we are asking is let the Bofors papers quest him that whatever papers avail- be laid on the Table of the House ... able with the Government. he should (Interruptions) ... lay those papers on the Table of the fTransiafion] House. Let the nation know who is the real culprit. I know personally SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: who is the real CUlprit and which side Tulsi ha<, said ..... (Interruptions) ...... he is sitting.

SHRIMATI SUBHASHINI ALI: [Tr?l1rlation] Mr. Speaker. Sir. let us know the name of the Sub-Inspector who bas SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: been entrusted with the investigations I have got two names ...... (/nterrup- into this matter so that we may talk tions) ...... to him only ...... (Interruptions) ... SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. Speaker, Sir, Khuranaji has Mr. Speaker. Sir, whosoever investi- come to know about the two culprits. gates the Bofors case. I do not consi- He may telq those two names if he der him more than a Sub-Inspector. so desires. But I have no information I have no objection if any person adds regarding them. He should not con- his name to that list. Secondly. I ceal those names if he has got the would like to request Khurana Saheb information. But he should not create not to worry about by credibility. For any misunderstanding through such a long time many attempts have been baseless talk. If he knows, he should made to tarnish my image. It has :ertainly reveal those names. (['IIer- remained unscathed and shall remain ruptions) so (Interruptions) ...... SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: [English] Mr. Speaker. Sir. I am going to re- veal the names. The court in Switzer- \ SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: land has given its verdict. A copy of I am very much surprised to listen that verdict has been sent to you to the speech of Mr. M. L. Khurana also. The two who have appealed in here in this House. When the previous that court are Shri G. P. Hinduja Government was there, Mr. Khurana's and the Ju·bilee Finance COmpany ...... Party was supporter of that Govern- (1 "terruptions) ment. At that time, we demanded that all papen in connection with PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE Bofors should be laid on the Table (Rajapur)! It is known. to all. (inter· of the House ...... (11lterruptions) ...... ruptions) 16-6 LSS/ND/91 23'5 Decision of the JANUARY 11, 1991 Disqualification of 236 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constitution

[Engli9HJ and SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: In the matter of the petition filed W,hat our leader has got to do with by Shri Devendra Prasad Yadav this? (Interruptio11S) against Shri Shakee1ur Rehman under the Tenth Schedule of the Constitu- tion and the Members of Lok Sabha PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: (Disqualification on ground of Defee· Are you continuing the debate? (In- terruptions) tion) Rules, 1985 ,and M,R. SPEAKER: No" no. You will have a chance next >time. In the matter of expulsion of Shri (Inte"uptiOm) Chandra Shekhar and 24 other Mem- hers from Janata Dal given at An- nexure III followed by their declara- tion as unattached Members

and 20.40 In. In the matter of request of Shri DECISION OF THE SPEAKER Chandra Shekhar dated 6th Novem- UNDER TENTH SCHEDULE OF ber. 1990 for recognition of Janata: THE CONSTITUTION Dal (S) as a political party.

DlsquaHficadoo of Members on ground The facts of the above cases in of Defel1ion brief are that on the 6th November, 1990. I received a letter jointly sent by Sarvashri Chandra Shekhar, Devi [English] Lal. Chand Ram and Hukumdeo Narayan Yadav, MPs and one Mem- MR. SPEAKER: In the matter of ber of Rajya Sabha. informing me the petitions filed by Shri Santosh that J anata I>dl had split at all levels Bhartiya against Srnt. Usha Sinha and in every State and that following the 29 other Members listed at Annexure split, 58 Members vide Annexure IV I and the petition filed by Shri Satya along with some Members of Rajya Pal Malik against the aforementioned Sabha had constituted a group re- 30 Memibers both praying for the presenting the break-away faction of disqualification under the Tenth Sche- lanata Oal and that they had adopted dule of the Constitution and the Mem- the name of J anata Dal (5). bers of the Lok Sabha (Disqualifica- tion on ground of Defection' Rules. 2. Eulier on the 5th November, 1985 1990. I had received a letter from Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh. Leader and of J anata Oal in Parliament informing me that 2S Members of Lok Sabha In the matter of the petition filed belonging to lanaia Dal vide An· by Shri Sukdeo Paswan against Shri nexure III have been expelled from V. C. Shukla and six other Members the party for anti-party activities and listed at Annexure n under Tenth were no longer Members of the Janata Schedule of the Constitution and 1lhe Dal Legisla ture Party in Lot Sabha. Members of Lok Sabha (Disqualifica- On receipt of this information. in COD- tion on ground of Defection) Rules. formity with the well.established 1985 Parliamentary usage and practice and 237 Deciston of the PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Disqualification of 238 Speaker unaer Tenth M~mbers on grounds Schedule of t",; 0/ defection Constitution

keeping in view that the matter was Paswan under Disqualification Rules, of party discipline between the Leader 1985. The list of Respondents is at and its Members, I had decided to Ann ~xure II. On being satisfied that declare the said 2'5 Members as 'Un- thl Jetitjons were in order, they were attached' for the purpose of their forwarded to the Respondents and the funtioning in the House, allotment of comments of the Members have since seats, freedom from the Party Whip. been received. The Members had etc. These Members were informed als 1 requested for personal hearing of my decision the same evening. and accordingly an opportunity was grR i ted to them on the 7th January. On the 6th November, 1990 at 1901 • 1700 hours, I received a letter from Shri Yishwanath Pratap Singh claim- On ' .e 14th December, 1990, Ire. ing that 25 Members of the lanata (.'civ~d a petition from Shri Devendra Oa) having already been expelled, the Prasaa Y R dav. MP praying for dis.. residual strength of the claimed split q 1lalification of Dr. Shakeelur Rehman, group came to only 33, which is less M P on the ground that the latter had than 1/3rd of the residual strength \ "luntarily given up membership of of the Janata Da] in Lok Sabha i.e., J anal. 0a1. The petition was re- 115 and. therefore. the splinter group ferr.:d to Dr. Rehman for his com- should not be recognised. The said ments, and as per his request an communications received from Shri opportunity for personal bearing was Chandra Shekhar and Shri Yishwa- also granted to him on the 7th January. nath Pratap Singh about the split were 1991. sent to each other for enabling them to furnish additional comments, if The issues to be decided by me are any. Shri Chandra Shekhar in a reply as follows:- dated the 6th November and received on the 7th November furnished his (i) Whether a split took place in further comments. the original J anata Dal in terms of Paragraph 3 of the Tenth On 7th and 8th November, 1990 Schedule of the Constitution; two petitions were received under Rule 6 of the Members of Lok Sabha (ii) Whether the expulsion of 25 (Disqualification on Ground of Defec- Members by Shri Yishwanath tion) Rules, 1985 (hereinafter referred Pratap Singh on the 5th Novem- to as Disqualification ~ules, 1985~ ber, 1990 and their being treat- from Shri Santosh BhartIya and Shrl ed as unattached by me has Satya Pal Malik, respectively against any legal effect on the plea of 30 Members vide Annexure I. Out split; Members, of the 30 Shri Gurdial Singh (iii) Whether any of the Respon- Saini resigned from Lok Sabha w.e.f. dents ha ve incurred any dis- the 9th November, 90. On being qualification under Tenth Sche- satisfied that the petitions were in dule of the Constitution. order~ the petitions were ~orwarded to the Respondents and therr comments 3. Regarding issues (i) & (U) the have been received. The Respon- contentions of four petitioners under dents had also requested for personal the Disqualification Rules and of Shri hearing for which an opportunity was Yishwanath Pratap Singh may be given on the 7th Januaryt 1991. summarised as follows:- On the 23rd November, 1990, I re- (a) 25 Members were expelled on ceived 7 petitions from Shri Sukdeo the 5th November. 1990 and 239 Decision of the JANUARY 11, 1991 Disqualification of 240 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule 0/ the of defection Constitution

the fact of expulsion was (b) The Tenth Schedule does not promptly intimated to the Spea- recognise expUlsion on account ker. The expulsion has oc- of anti-party activities outside curred prior to any alleged the House. split. (c) The expulsion of 2S Members (b) The remaining Members claim- by Shri Vishwanath Pratap ing a split do not constitute Singh is illegal and is I'I'lalafide 1/3rd of the remaining strength directed at countermanding a of the Janata Oal namely 115 genuine split. and therefore are liable to be disqualified .. (d) That Shri Vishwanath Pratap (c) It is claimed by th~ Respon- Singh. Leader of lanata Dal in dents variously that a split took Parliament in a speech on the place at 10.30 AM on the 5th 7th November. 1990 gave a November. 1990 and even if it call of conscience vote to Mem- is admitted for the sake of argu- bers of ParHament and thereby ment that the split did occur. the whip issued by the party it had to be deemed to have stood annulled and rescinded. occurred on the 5th November and Members defecting after (c) In a letter dated the 14th the 5th, that is, those not cover- November. 1990 Shri Harmohan ed in the list of 58 Members Dhawan purported to be the and voting against the whip Chief Whip of the splinter on 7th November or 16th group claimed that 65 Mem- November cannot in any case bers belonging to Janata DaI be covered by the split. had joined JD(S) though the letter did not carry signatures (d) The fitst . .condition of a split of individual Members. required under Para 3 of Tenth Schedule. name]y. that any split (f) That Rajya Sabha and EJection in the Legislature Party has to Commission have recognised arise as a result of a split in Janata Dal (S) as a separate the original political party has political Party. not been fulfilled because Shri Chandra Shekhar himself is re- 4. Of the 30 Members vide An- ported to have said in The nexure-I against whom petitions for H imiu of Delhi edition dated disqualification are considered Shri 6th November, 1990 that only Gurdial Singh Saini has resigned and the Parliamentary Party had the name of Shri Basavaraj Patil does split and not the J anata Dal. not appear in the list of 58 Members which was submitted to me by Shri The arguments of the Respondents Chandra Shekhar on 6th November, can be summarised as follows:- 1990. Since the case against the 28 Members is. more or less, similar, (a) That at 9.30 AM on 5th Novem- they can be discussed together. The ber. 1990 there was a split in case against them is that they had the Janata Dal on the organi- been elected as Members of J aaata sation side in a meeting held Oat. That they voted against a whip at No.2 WiUingdon Crescent, issued by the Whip of the Janata nat New Delhi. Following this, a followed by another wlJip issued by meeting of MPs was held and the Leader of the Janata Dat on the the Parliamentary Party split at 4th November. 1990. that they had 10.30 AM that very day, voted contrary to directions from 241 Decision o/the PAusA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Disqualification of 242 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constitution whips. and that such contravention is ing the expUlsion of 2S Members by evident from voting recorded by Lok Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh. On Sabha Secretariat. That the spilt can- t he other hand, Shri Vishwanath Pratap not be recognis('''d for reasons already Singh has argued that in view of a mentioned in para 3 supra and that claim made by Shri Chandra Shekhar therefore they are Iia ble to be dis- in the ·The Hindu' dated 6th Novem- qualified under Paragraph 2 of the ber, 1990. that only the Parliamentary Tenth Schedule, not having been pro- Party had split and not the Janata tected under Paragraph 3. In defence, Dat. an essential condition for recog- each of the Respondents has stated nition of split under Paragraph 3 has that there was a split prior to expul- not been fulfilled. In view of inade- sion and that following split they quate evidence. I do not wish to go constituted anothrr group namely Into the legality of c"pu1sion just as JD(S). That the expulsion of 25 r do not want to go into the legality Melnbcrs should not be taken note of of the m~etjng of the splinter group and therefore the split satisfied the namely as to whether or not such criterion stipulated in Paragraph 3 of meeting was held as per party Consti- the Tenth Schedule. That in as much tution. Shri Chandra Shekhar in his as Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh had letter dated the 4th December, 1990. given a call for conscience vote on the and received by Lok Sabha Secretariat 7th November, the whip was not bind- on the same day. has annexed Form ing on the Members. I II purportedly signed by 63 Members under the Disqualification RuJes~ 1985. 5. It is admitted by both parties These forms have also been referred that a whip war; i5sued by the Janata to in the petitions of the respondents. Ddl for the Confidence Motion on the dnd copy thereof enclosed. Rule 4 of 7th November. 1990. It is admitted the Disqualification Rules 1985 pro- by both pa rties that the Respondents vides for intimation to the Speaker by have voted against the Motion of Con- a Member regarding inter alia change fidence on 7th November. In support of party status immediately. It is not of the claim for split, the Respondents understood why these forms were not have enc10sed copies of minutes of submitted to the undersigned on the General Body Meeting purported to 5th November or immediately there- have been held at 9.30 AM on 5th after when the split is claimed to have November. 1990. minutes of meeting taken place. The word 'immediately' of Janata Dal Members of Parliament has to be contrasted with the require- held at 10.30 AM same day and the ment of 30 days prescribed under copies of Press reports. The Press rule 3 of the Disqualification Rule reports do not indicate the time of and therefore it bas to be presumed the purported split. While the letter that information in Form III has to of Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh was be submitted more promptly than a received by the undersigned on 5th leader is required to furnish the in- November at 1.45 P.M., the claim of formation in Form I. I t has been split by Shri Chandra Shekhar waS argued during personal hearing that a received only on the 6th November at Respondent may not be in headquar- 1.10 PM. Respondents have referred ters and therefore may not be able to to news of split being broadcast by send (the Form. III immediately. While official media. The copies of news this ,eneral claim has been made, no bulletin not having been presented individual Respondent had made any before me. as far as evidence on the prayer for specific dispensation on this basis of press reports is concerned. account and therefore the claim may there is llothing to show that the split not be accepted per se. There is also OCCUlTed prior to the expulsion or no explanation as to why the infor- prior 10 the .receipt of the letter inform.. mation was 801 submitted to the Spa- 243 Decision 0/ the JANUARY 11, 1991 DisqlMJlijication 0/ 244 Speoker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule 0/ the of defection Constitution

ker. It is claimed by the Respondents and in fact was not submitted to me that the above 28 Members were at all but was apparently submitted to present on the 5th in Delhi. at the Shri Chcndra Shekhar who collected meeting which resulted in the alleged it and submitted it to nle leads me to split but there is no explanation what- conclude that the averment made soever as to why these forms were not therein cannot be taken on face value. submitted. This being the only evi- dence presented by the respondents referring to the timing of split, 1 hold 6. The petitioner has also stated that the respondents have not been that th~ Chairman, Rajya Sabha has able to establish beyond reasonable already recognised the formation and doubt that the split occurred prior to recognition of J anata Dal (Samajvadi) expulsion. In absence of information in the Rajya Sabha. As per establish- in Form III, I have to rely on the ed Parliament traditions, I should not only other information available, go into that pl~a. The petitioner has namely. the letter dated 6th Novem- also enclosed a copy of the order of ber. 1990 of Shri Chandra Shekhar Election Commission dated the 27th signed by 58 Members. Here also December, 1990 recognising JD(S) as certain discrepancies are notked. a political party. 1 have carefully (;on- While the list submitted by Shri Chan- sidered the notification referred to. dra Shekhar on 6th November con- The notification recognised JO(S) with tained 58 names, two of the Members effect from 27th December, 90 and who had appended their signatures to docs not throw any light on the status the list namely Shri Ram Naresb of the party on 5th November or on Singh and Shri Mandhata Singh wrote 7th November or on 16th November. saying that they owed allegiance to J anata Oal led by Shri Vishwanath 7. While from th~ above. it will be Pratap Singh. Shri Harmohan Dhawan clearly seen that there is no evidence purported to be the Chief Whip of the to show that the split occurred prior J anata Dal (8), wrote to me on the to expulsion, since there are claims 14th November, 1990 that 64 Mem- and counterclaims about timing of the bers were with the splinter group. In splits vis-a-vis timing of expUlsion and the list submitted by Shri Chandra since both the actions and expulsion Shekhar on the 14th December. 1990 and the meeting of the splinter group there were 63 names. The petitioners have been chalJenged. I hold that the have also referred to the appeal made benefit of doubt should go to the by Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh on Respondents, who would become dis- the 7th November during his speech qualified in the event of my not on Lok Sabha on that day. I have recognising the split to have taken carefully perused the whole speech. place prior to the expUlsion. On a close reading of the speech I hold that the appeal of Shri Vishwa .. There is a widely held view includ- nath Pratap Singh as contained in his ing that of common man, and a view speech dehvered in the House on the which I share in many respects. that 7th November is an appeal bordering the existing law on defection suffers on the rhetoric and would not amount from several lacunae in regard to to overriding a specific written direc- substantive matters as well as pro- tion which is recognised widely and cedures. While there can be no two universally as a standard mode of opinions that in a democratic system, direction in the functioning of politi- freedom of dissent has to be an essen- cal parties. As I have discussed al- tial ingredient, it has also to be ac- ready, the fact that Form III though· cepted that it should be open and dated 5th November" was Dot sub- honest. If dissent is honest, it should mitted to me immediately thereafter be ventilated and canvassed openly 245 Decision of the PAUSA 21,19]2 (SAKA) Disqualification of 246 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constitution

and need not be clandestine and sec- At the moment~ I am bound by the retive. Equally important is that ho- law as it obtains today and I am nest dissent involves sacrifice and not trying to interpret it and apply it to even remotely motivated with self- the present issues before me to the aggrandisement. The present goings best of my ability and in the best in· on in the country are indeed deeply terest of the country. As I have said. disturbing nnd distressing and jf the in the event of my not recognising the situation is allowed to drift, people split to have taken place prior to ex- will 10se their faith in the very system. pulsion, these 28 Members will stand Our country won freedom with enor- disqualified. and any benefit of doubt. mous sacrifice of minions of our therefore has to go in their favour. people--known and unknown-and As such, the petitions of disqualifica- foundation of a free India was laid tion against the aforementioned 28 with moral values and political ethics Members are dismissed. preached and practised by the Father of the Nation. And I quote from Gandhiji. 8. As regards the petition against Shri Basavaraj Patil, it is observed HIf you must dissent. you should that his name did not figure in the take care that your opinions voice list furnished by Shri Chandra Shekhar your inner-most convictions and are on the 6th November, 1990. Accord· not intended merely as a convenient ing to the records of Lok Sabha Sec· pa rty cry." retariat and as admitted by both parties. Shri Patil voted against the Those values ~Ione can sustain our Motion of Confidence against party hardwon freedom and lend strength to whip on the 7th November. In view our goal for an egalitarian society; of my discussions in Para S above. in free from lny discrimination based on as much as the name of Shri Patil caste. creed. sex. etc. and equality and does not appear in the list of 58 Mem- wellbeing for al1. Without taking re- bers su bmitted by Shri Chandra ligion in the usual sense. certain moral Shekhar. I cannot hold that he was fabric is essential for every society part of the splinter group. which came to survive and keep it strong. If our into existence on the 5th November, ambitions and greed for power over- 1990. The claim that he belonged to take the national interest and the in- JD(S) on 7th November, 1990 does terest of the people. surely the future not hold good. As he did not belong is dark. T do not wish to be a pro- to JD(S) on the 7th November. 1990. phet of dooms, in fact. I am an he cannot claim to have escaped di- incorrigible optimist, and I have great rections of Janata Oal Party on that faith in our people who have tremen- day. As he cannot be held to have dous resilience to tide over any kind joined the splinter group on 5th of gravest crisis and it is the will of November. 1990, his declaration under our people which has always guided Furm III cannot be taken on face us over the ages. J, therefore, appeal value and is clearly an afterthought. to this Hon. House of which I am an The appeal made by Shri Vishwanath humble servant and through this Pratap Singh on 7th on the floor of House to all concerned to ponder over the House cannot be said to override the situation and address themselves a sp~cific written direction by the party to the main and the only question as vide my observations at Para 5 supra. to how to keep the torch of our long In view of the above, I hold that cherished values of freedom and dig .. Shri Basavaraj Patil has become dis- nity shining and take the country on qualified under Paragraph 2(1)(b) of its march towards peacejOt prosperity the Tenth Schedule and Rule 8(1)(b) and happiness. of the Disqaaalification Rules. 247 Declsiono!the JANUARY]), 1991 Dlsqu~llficotion of 248 Speoker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constltutioll

9. As regards the case of Shri mitted in writing that they owed alle- Hamendra Singh Banera, it is observ- giance to J anata Dal and that they ed that his name was included in the are going to vote in favour of the Jist of 58 Members furnished by Shri Motion on 7th November, 1990 as Chandra Shekhar. However. Shri per the whip issued by Janata DaI. Banera handed over two letters 011 In view of their averments they can- 7th November, 1990, one 10 Lok not be ~aid to have belonged to Sabha Secretariat and one to me per- JD(S) faction. sonally. 11. In view of the discussions above, 21.00 brs. I recognise J anata Dal (S) as a dis- tinct party consisting of 54 Members In both the letters, he had as at Annexure VI. arising out of a stated that he was abiding by the split in J anata Dal on 5th Novem- whip of the leader of the Janata Oal ber 1990. From the time of such split and was voting in favour of the Mo- that is with effect from the 5th No- tion moved by Shri Vishwanath vember. 1990. I hold under Para- Pratap Singh. He also stated that graph 3(b) of the Tenth Schedule other correspondence bearing his name that these 54 Members shall belong or signature has to be treated as can.. to J anata Dal (S), which will be dee- celled. As he made this claim on med to be their original political the 7th November, it will be presu- party for the purpose of sub-para- med that the signature appended to graph (1) of Paragraph 2 of the the 1etter of Shri Chandra Shekhar Tenth Schedu1e. dated the 5th November was with. drawn and rescinded. In view of what 12. Shri Sukdeo Paswan has fiJed I have already discussed, the process a petition against among others. Shri of split is presumed to have closed 011 Manavendra Singh. The case against the 5th November and therefore anv- Shri Manavendra Sing;h is that he one subsequently joining the splinter voted in support of the Motion of group of J anata Dal shall not be Confidence on 7th November, 1990 covered by the split for the purpose in accordance with the whip of of Paragraph 3 of the Tenth Sche- Janata Da'- but contravened the whip dule. In any case, it is neither his on 16th November. 1990. From claim nor the claim of anybody else office records. J observe that Shri that there was a second split. Shri Manavendra Singh was absent on Banera. therefore, cannot seek any 7th November, 1990; and therefore protection under Paragraph 3. His the averments made in the petition contention that there were discussions of Shri Paswan was not correct to about reunion of the party. while may this extent. Shri Manavendra Singh be morally sound or otherwise. have has alrt"ady been recognised to belong no relevance whatsoever for the pur- to JD(S) vide mv observation at para pose of Tenth Schedule. I. therefore. 11 supra. He thus came to the dis- hold that Shri Danera has incurred cipline of JD(S) with effect from the disqualification under Paragraph 2 of 5th November, 1990, and was not the Tenth Schedule read with Rule subject to the whip of J anata, Da1 8(1 )(b) of the Disqualification Rules. thereafter. This being the posjtion. " I dismiss the petition of Shr! Mana- 10. Two Members, namely, Shri vendra Singh. Mandhata Singh and Sbri Ram Ma- resh Singh whose names appear in 13. Five of the petitioners against the list of S8 Members submitted by whom Sbri Sukdeo Paswan has filed Sbri Chandra Shekhar on 6th Novem- similar petitions and wbo have sub.. ber. 1990 met me on 7th. and sub- mitted similar responses are Shri 249 Decision of the PAUSA 21, 191:! (SAKA) Disqualification 0/ 250 Speaker under Tenth M emb~rs on grounds Schedule of the of defection Const ; til/ion Vidyacharan Shukla. Dr. Bengali I observe that these five respon- Singh, Shri Sarwar Hussain, Shri dents are not in the list of 54 Mem- Bhagey Gobardhan and Devananda bers who have been recognised to Amat. The allegation against them constitute JD(5). There is one fac- is that the respondents had been tual error in the petition against Dr. Mem bers of J anata Dal Legislature Bengali Singh. While the petition Party, that in obedience to the whip states that Dr. Bengali Singh voted in of the Janata Da), the respondents support of the Motion on 7th Nov.. had voted for the Motion of Confi· ~mber, 1990, in fact he was absent dence on the 7th November. 1990. on that day as the record would that the respondents did not join the show. However. this does not have splinter group on the 5th November any material effect on the cause of 1990 or on the 7th November, 1990 action. namelv, that he had voted that it claimed by the splinter group against the whip on the 16th Novem- that the split was over on the 5th ber. 1990. His abstention on 7·1 ]-90 November 1990 and in any case on which also amounts to violation of the 7th November. 1990, that a three- party whip does not seem to have line whip was issued to all the Mem- been condoned. In view of what has bers including the respondents direct- already been discussed. the split is ing the Mem bers to vote against the presumed to have taken place on Motion of Confidence moved by the 5-11 .. 90 constituting of S4 Members. Prime Minister Shri Chandrashekhar The split has to be only one-time and that the respondents voted against affair. as even a cursory reading of the whip, that the voting against the Tenth Schedule would show. The the whip has not been condoned by declaration in Form III purported to the party. that the respondents are have been signed on 5th November not covered by Paragraph 3 of the cannot be relied upon as the same Tenth Schedule and each of the res- was not submitted immediately~ and pondents is. therefore, liable to be in any case was not su bmitted by disqualified under Para 2(1)(a) and the Member before me. The fact that 2(1 )(b) of the Tenth Schedule. In four respondents had voted in accor- reply, the respondents have stated dance with the whip on 7th Novem- that on the 5th November, ] 990. the ber further proves that the Form fifo party had split.. both at the organisa- furnished by the respondents is an tional and the legislature levels, that afterthought. The other respondent the split took place on 5th November. Dr. Bengali Singh had tnade certain 1990. that it had more than 1/3rd of claims regarding his voting on the the strength of Janata Dal, that no 7th November. which having self .. notice should be taken of the expul- contradictions need not be gone into. sion, that including 63 Members, they In any case these five respondents have signed F onn III claiming party did not figure in the list submitted affiliation to JD(S) at 10.30 AM on by Shri Chandrashekhar on the 6th the 'th November. 1990, that after November, 1990 and this has not been the aforesaid split on the Sth Nov- explained by the respondents. The ember leaders of both the groups had pJea tHat there were hopes of rap- started negotiation for coming toge- proachment betw\!en the two factions. ther again for reuniting the party. which could have moral ramifications that it was in this atmosphere that have no implication as far as the the rest'Otldents voted in faV'our of proceedings under the Tenth Schedule Shrl Vishwanath Pratap Singh on is concerned. The five respondents. 7th November, 1990 t!tat having been therefore. did not belon~ to JO(S) on outside the jurisdiction of Janata DaI the Stb November. 1990. the day on with effect from 5th November, 1990. which the split came into being and the whip of Janata Dil was not bind- as they dO not constitute 1/3rd of the ing on them either on ,. t 1·1990 or rtsidual strength of I.nata Dal they on 16-11-1990. aN nOt ptoteCted under Paragrapb 3. 1'7· ·6 LSSIND/91 2S1 Decision o/the JANUARY 11, 1991 Disqualification 01 252 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constitution

I, therefore. hold that Shri Vidya- tely after 5·11·1990 and that his name charan Shukla, Dr. Bengali Singh. does not appear in the list dated 14th Shri Sarwar Hussain, Sbri Bhagey November. 1990 submitted by Shri Gobardhan and Shri Devananda Harmohan Dhawan. The plea that Amat stand disqualified under Para- on 7-11-1990 and 16·11·1990 he be .. graph 2 of the Tenth Schedule read longed to J D(S) and therefore sllbject with Rule 8 (l)(b) of the Disqualifi· to whip of 1D(S) and not that of JD. ~tion Rules, 1985. is clearly an afterthought for the same reason. It has been stated during personal hearing that once a Member 14. In respect of Dr. Shakeelur makes a 'claim' about his party sta· Rehman, the petition alleges that on tus, the 'claim' should be accepted. 21st November he was sworn in as a and that this should be the end of mem her of the Council of Ministers the matter. Even conceding for the in Shri Chandrashekhar"s gcverllment. sake of argument that a claim validly and that this is tantamount to giving made could be accepted at face value. up membership voluntarily for the it is observed that the claim made purpose of Paragraph 2 (l)(a) of the here is not validly made in as much Tenth Schedule. It is admitted that as (i) claim has not been made be- Dr. Shakeelur Rehman was a mem- fore the Speaker as required under ber of J anata Dal. His name app· the Disqualification Rules 1985 (ii) ears in the list submitted by Shri claim has not been made immediately, Chandrashekhar on 4th December, as required under the Disqualification 1990 and Form III purported to have Rules. Therefore the claim is an been signed by him on 5th Novem- afterthought. As such. while Dr. ber, 1990 is enclosed in the letter of Rehman is liable to be disqualified Shri Chandrashekhar. Dr. Rehman under Para 2(1)(a). he cannot have has thus given up membership of his the protection of a split under para party. namely. Janata Dal in the ~ of the Tenth Schedule. I, therefore. meaning of Paragraph 2(a) of the declare that Dr. Shakeelur Rehman Tenth Schedule. In his defence. as has become disqualified under the also in the oral submissions. it is Tenth Schedule and Rule 8(1)(b) ,of pleaded that there were some discus- the Disqualification RuleR. sions which indicated a possibility of restoration of status quo ante, that keeping this in view he had voted on ORDER 7·11 .. 90 and 16-11·90 in favour of Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh but ]5. Tn exercise of the powers con- had decided to join the Government ferred upon me by the Tenth Sche· ~ubsequently. As discussed supra. dule to the Constitution and the the split is recognised with effect Members of Lot Sabha (Disqualifica· from the 5th November. 1990 and tion on ground of Defection) Rules split for the purpose of the Tenth 1985. I. Rabi Ray, Speaker Lok Schedule is only a one time affair. Sabha. hereby order that since 54 and cannot be an on·going or ccnti· Members whose names i would state nuous process or phenomenon. The hereafter constitute a faction which Form III purportedly signed on the has arisen as a result of the split in 5th November, 1990 is clearly an the original Janata Dat Party and afterthought. keeping in view the cir- such group consists of not less than cumstances. namely, that t:'e Respon- t/3rd of the Members of the original dent was not in the list of Members 'party, this faction shall be deemed to !l;ubmitted by Shri Chandrashekhar on be a new political party in terms of 6·11·1990 and also on 16-11-1990. Para 3 of the Tenth Schedule and that the alleged revised Form m was that these 54 Members ~hall be trea- not submitted to me on or immedla- ted as Members of the Janata Dal(S) 253 S3Decislon of the pAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) Disqualification of 2$4 Speaker u"der Tentll Members on grounds Schedule 0/ the of defection Constitution which would be their original party 32. Shri A. N. Singh Deo hereafter for the purpose of Paragraph 33. Rao Birender Singh 3 of the Tenth Schedule. 34. Shri Janeshwar Mishra 1. Shri Balgopal Mishra 35. Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwari 2. Shri Babanrao Dhakane 36. Shri Subodh Kant Sahay 3. Shri Bega' Ram Chauhan 37. Smt. Usha Sinha 4. Shri Bhakt Charan Das 38. Shri Chhotey Singh Yadav 5. Shri Bhagwan Das Rathm" 39. Shri Ram Singh Shakya 6. Shri Chandra Shekhar 4'). Shri Ram Sewak Bhatia 7. Shri Chand Ranl 41. Shri Uday Pratap Singh 8. Shri Dasai Chowdhary 42 Shri Keshari Lal 9. Shri Daulat Ram Saran 43. Shri Ram Sagar (Barabanki) 10. Shri Devi Lal 44. Shri Baleshwar Yadav 11. Shri Dhanraj Singh 45. Shri Ram Prasad Chaudhary 12. Shri Dharmesh Prasad 46. Shri Prabhatsinh Chauhan Varma 47. Shri G. K. Shekhada 13. Shri Harmohan Dhawan 48. Shri Manubhai Kotadia 14. Shri Het Ram 49. Shri Balvant Manvar 15. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan Yadav SO. Shri Arjunbhai Patel 16. Shri Jagdeep Dhankar 51. Shri M. M. Patel 17. Shri J ai Prakash 52. Shri Shantilal Purushottam Das Patel 18. Shri Kalpnath Sonkar 53. Shri N. J. Rathra 19. Shri Kalyan Singh Kalvi 54. Shri Jayantilal Virchandbhai 20. Shri Kapil Dev Shastri Shah 21. Shri Lalit Vijoy Singh 16. In exercise of the powers con- 22. Smt. Maneka Gandhi ferred upon me under Paragraph 6 of 23. Shri Nakul Nayak the Tenth Schedule to the Constitu- tion of India and the Rules there- 24. Shri Rajmangal Pandey under, I. Rabi Ray, Speaker, Lok 25. Shri Ram Bahadur Singh Sabha. hereby declare that the follow- ing 7 Mem'?ers o~ Lok Sabha ~ve 26. Shri Raj Mangal Mishra incurred dtaqualitication for belDg Members of Lok Sabha in terms of 27. Shri Ramji La} Yadav Paragraph 2(1)(b) of the said Sche- 28. Shri Ramji Lal Suman dule: 29. Shri Yuvraj 1. Shri Basavaraj Patil 30. Shri Manlaraj Mallik 2. Shri Hamendra Singh Banera 31. Sbrl Manvendra Sinp 3. Shri Vidyacharan ~ukla 2SS Decision o/the JANUARY 11, 1991 Disqualification of 256 Speaker under Tenth Members on grounds Schedule of the of defection Constitution

4. Dr. Bengali Singh 12. Shri Ram Singh Sha kya S. Shri Sarwar Hussain 13. Shri Rajmangal Pandey 6. Shri Bbagey Gobardhan 14. Shri Shantilal Patel 7. Shri Devananda Amat. 15. Shri Nakul Nayak Accordingly. the aforesaid Mem- 16. Shri Jagdeep Dhankar, bers have ceased to be MClllbers of 17. Shri G. S. Saini Lok Sabha with immediate effect, and their seats shall thereupon fall 18. Shri Yuvraj vacant. 19. Shri Balvant Manyar 17. In exercise of powers conferr- 20. Shri A. N. Singh Deo ed upon me under Paragraph 6 of the Tenth Sched ule of the Constitu .. 21. Shri Baleshwar Yadav tion of India and the Rules there- 22. Shri Uday Pratap Singh under. I. Rabi Ray. Speaker. Lok Sabha. hereby declare that Dr. Sha .. 23. Shri Ram Sagar (Barabanki) kee]ur Rehman. Member Lok Sabha has incurred disqualification for be- 24. Shri Bega Ram Chauhan ing a Member of Lok Sabha in terms 25. Shri Dasai Chowdhary of Paragraph 2(1)(a) of the said Sc- hedule. Accordingly, Dr. Shakeelur 26. Shri Daulat Ram Saran Rehman has ceased to be a Member of Lok Sabba with immediate elect. 27. Shci Devi Lal and his seat shall thereupon fall va- 28. Shri Dhanraj Singh cant. 29. Shri Keshari Lal Copies of this order be forwarded 30. Shri Mangaraj Mallik to the petitioners, the members in relation to whom the petitions are made and to the Leaders of tho ANNEXURE II Janata Dal and Janata Dal (S). 1. Shri V. C. Shukla ANNEXURE I 2. Shri Bengali Singh 1. Smt. Usha Sinha 3. Shri Sarwar H·ussain 2. Shri laneshwar Mishra 4. Shri Bhagoy Gobardhan 3. Shri Basavaraj PatH 5. Shri Manvendra Singh 4. Shri Ramji Lal Yadav 6. Shri Hamendra Singh Banera S. Shri Ram Bahadur Singh 7. Shri D. Arnat 6. Rao Birender Singh 7. Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwari ANNEXURE III 8. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan Yadav 1. Sbri Chand Ram 9. Shri Ram Sewak Bhatia 2. Shri Chandra Shckbar 10. Shri RIUD Prasad Chaudhary 3. Shri Prabhatsinh H. Otauhan 11. Shri Chhotey Sinsh Yadav 4. Shri Bhakta Charan Das l~7 Decision of the PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAXA) DisqualJjicatlon 01 258 Speaker tmder Tenth Members on grounds i Schedule of the of defection Constitution

5. Shri Babanrao Dhakaae 13. Sbri Harmohan Dhawan 6. Shri Harmohan Dhawan 14. Sbri Het Ram 7. Smt. Maneka Gandhi 15. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan 8. Shri Het Ram Yadav 9. Shri Jai Parkash 16. Shri I agdcep Dhankar 10. Shri Kalyan Singh Kalvi 17. Shri Jaiparkash 11. Shri Manubhai Kotadia 18. Shri Kalpnath Sonkar 12. Shri Balgopal :Misbra 19. Shri Kalyan Singh Kalvi 13. Shri Raj Mangal Mishra 20. Shri Kapil Dev Shastri 14. Shri Arjunbhai Patel 2 J. Shri Lalit Vijoy Singh ) 5. Shri M. M. Patel 22. Smt. Maneka Gandhi ] 6. S:ui N. J. Rathva 23. Shri Nakul Nayak 17. Dr. Bhagwan Das Rathor 24. Shri Rajmangal Pandey 18. Shri Subodh Kant Sahay 25. Shri Ranl Bahadur Singh 19. Shri Jayantilal Virchand Shah 26. Shri Ram Naresh Singh 20. Shri Kapil Dev Shastri 27. Shri Raj 'MangaI Mishra 21. Shri G. K. Shekhada 28. Shri Ramji Lal Yadav 22. Shri L. V. Singh 29. Shri Ramji La] Suman 23. Shri Kalpnath Sonkar 30. Shri GurdiaI Singh Saini 24. Shri Ramjilal Suman 31. Shri Yuvraj 25. Shri Dharmesh Prasad Varma. 32. Shri Mangaraj Ma11ik 33. Shri Manvendra Singh ANNEXURE IV 34. Shri A. N. Singh Dco 1. Shri Balgopal Mishra 35. Rao Birender Singh 2. Shri Ba'banrao Dhakane 36. Shri laneshwar 'Mishra 3. Shri Bega Ram Chauhan 37. Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwan 4. Shd Bhakt Charan Das 38. Shri Subodh Kant Sahay S. Shri Bhagwan Oas Rathor 39. Smt Usba Sinha 6. Shri Chandra Shekhar 40. Sbri Chhotey Singh Yadav 7. Shri Chand Ram 41. Shri Ram Singh Shaky. 8. Shri Dasai Chowdhary 42. Shri Ram Sewak Bhatia 9. Shri Daulat Ram Saran 10. Shrl Devi La1 43. Shri Uday Pratap Singh 1 ]. Shri Dhanraj SiJJgb 44. sari Keshari La] 12. Shri DBarmesh Prasad Varma 45. Shri Ram Sa,.. (Barlblnki) 259 Decision of til' J ANU A R Y It, 1991 Disqualification of 260 Speaker under Tenth Members 011 grounds Schedule 0/ the of defection Constitution

46. Sbri Baleshwar Yadav 17. Shri Balvant Manvar 47. Shri Ram Prasad Chaudhary 18. Shri A. N. Singh Deo 48. Shri Prabhatsinh Chauhan 19. Shri Baleshwar Yadav 49. Sbri G. K. Shekhada 20. Shri Uday Pratap Singh SO. Shri Manubhai Kotadia 21. Shri Ram Sagar ,(Barabanki) 51. Shri Balvant Manvar 22. Shri Bega Ram Chauhan 52. Shri Arjunbhai Patel 23. Shri Dasai Chowdhary 53. Shri M. M. Patel 24. Shri Daubt RatD Saran 54. Shri Shantilal Purushottam 25. Shn Devi Lal Das Patel 26. Shri Dhanraj Singh 55. Shri N. J. Rathva 27. Shri Keshari Lal 56. Shri Jayantilal Virchandbhai 28. Shri Mangaraj Mallik. Shah 57. Shri Hamendra Singh Banera ANNEXURE VI 58. Shri Mandhata Singh. I. Shri Balgopal MiSthra 2. Shri Babanrao Dhakane ANNEXURE V 3. Shri Bega Ram Chauhan 1. Smt. Usha Sinha 4. Shri Bhakt Charan Das 2. Shri J anesbwar Mishra 5. Shri Bhagwan Das Rathor 3. Shri Ramji La! Yadav 6. Sbri Chandra Shekhar 4. Shri Ram Bahadur Singh 7. Shri Chand Ram 5. Rao Birender Singh 8. Shri Dasai Chowdhary 6. Sbri Brij Bhushan Tiwari 9. Shri Da ula t Ram Saran 7. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan 10. Shri Devi LaI Yadav 11. Shri Dhanraj Singh 8. Shri Ram Sewak Bhatia 12. Shri Dharnlesh Prasad Varma 9. Shri Ram Prasad Chaudhary 13. Shri Harmohan Dhawan 10. Shri Chhotey Singh Yadav 14. Shri Het Ram 11. Sbri Ram Singh Shakya 15. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan 12. Shri Rajmangal Pandey Yad!v 13. Shri Shantilal Patel 16. Soo Jagdeep Dhanbr 14. Shri Nakul Nayak 17. Shri Jai Parkash 1S. Shri Jagdeep Dhankar 18. Sbri Kalpnatb Sonkar 16. Shri Yuvraj 19. Shti Kalyan Sinsh Kalvi 261 Decision of the PAUSA 21, 1912 (SAKA) DlsqualijicotJon of 262 Speaker under Tenth Members on groU1l(ls Schedule of the of defection Constitution

20. Shri Ka pH Dev Shastri 53. Shri N.J. Rathva 21. Shri Lalit Vijoy Siqgh 54. Shri Jayantilal Virchandbhai Shah. 22. Smt. Maneka Gandhi.. 23. Shri Nakul Nayak 24. Shri RajrnangallPandey MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Mombers. as the Sixth Session of the current 25. Shri Ram Bahadur Singh Lok Sabba comes to a close. I would 26. Shri Raj Mangal 'Mishra like to take this opportunity to thank hon. Memhers for the kind co-opera- 27. Shri Ramji Lal Yadav tion extended to me and my colle- 28. Shd Ramji Lal Sunlan agues-the Deputy Speaker and Members of the Panel of Chairman- 29. Shri Yu~raj in conducting the proceedings of the House smoothly. During this short 30. Shri M angaraj Mallik session which commenced on 27th 31. Shri Manvendra Singh December, 1990~ the House held 10 sittings lasting over 67 hours. 32. Shri A. N. Singh Deo 33. Rao Birender Singh On the very firslt day of the session. I gave my consent to the moving of 34. Shri Janeshwar Mishra an Ad joumment Motion regarding 35. Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwari recent communal violence in the country. The motion was negatived 36. Shri Sulbodh Kant Sahay 8Jfter a debate lasting over S1 hours. On 9 January, another Adjournment 37. Smt. U~ha Sinha Motion relating to a subject on which 38. Shri Chhntey Singh '''adav the whole House was rightly agitat- ed, viz., the need to uphold the pro. 39. Shri Ram Singh Shakya visions of the Constitution vesting in the Speaker the powers to determine 40. Shd Ram Sewak Bhatia questions of disqualification of MPs 41. Shri Uday Pratap Singh contained in the Tenth Schedule of the Constitution, to the exclusion of 42. Shri Keshari Lal Courts of Law, was discussed for 43. Shri Ram Sagar (Bar8tbanki) over four hours. The motion was withdrawn by leave of the House 44. Shri Baleshwar Yadav after Government had bowed to the demand from all sections of the House 45. Shri Ram Prasad Chaudhary to have the affidavit filed in the High 46. Shri Prabhatsinh Chauhan Court of Delhi suitably amended. 47. Shri O.K. Shek·hada Three important matters were rais- ed through CaUing Attention notices. 48. Shri Manubhai Kotadia viz.. the recent developments In Suri- 49. Shri Balvant Manvar nam affecting the safety of life aDd property of the Indians living there. 50. Shri Arjunlbhai Patel non-settlement of dispute of NA- BARD employees and the reported 51. Shri M.M. Patel de-registration by DOS&D and the J)oI)artment of Defence Production of 52. Sbri Shantilal Purusbottam a large Dumber of reputed medicine ~ Patel 8tms. 263 JANUARY 11, 19()] 264

Shon Duration Discussions under them to bring a variety of issues agi- Rule 193 on rise in prices of essen- tating their minds to the notice of tial commodities and the situation in the House and the Government at Punjab were also held. the earliest opportunity~ In anum· ber of C"dses, the ~rime Minister as In all, eleven Bills were passed dur- also other Ministers instantly respon- ing the session including the Public ded to the matters raised in the Liability Insurance Bill, the Taxation House. Laws (Amendment) Bill. 1990 apart from Appropriation Bills relating to Once again I thank all bon. Mem- Supplementary Dem3nds for Grants bers, Leader of the Opposition and (General) and the Ass'am and Jammu Leaders of other Parties and Groups and Kashmir Budgets. for their unstinted cooperation given to nle during this session. 13 Private Members' Bins were in- My thanks are also due to the De· troduced during the session. The ")uty Speaker and Members of the Disabled Pel'S()os (Rehabi1itation and Panel of Chairmen who have very Welfare) Bill Iby Shri Uttam Rathod ably assisted me in cond ucting the reprdiu8 need for a comprehensive proceedings. poJfcy for the rehabilitation and wet· flre of disabled persons was the sub- I wish all the Members the very ject of a fruitful debate in the House. 1».;t till we nleet again.

The procedural device introduced Now the House stands adjourned by me, during Budget Session, of ~ine die. allowiDJ members to raise matters of 21.15 brs. urlent public importance after Que~­ non Hour, continued to be very pa- The Lok Sabha then' adjourned pular among members as it enabled sine die.

MOIPCSE-87- 6 LSS/ND/91-22-'-91-700.