Item 5, Appendix A

Business Management and Administration Committee 28 April 2009

Transcript of Item 7: The Deputy Mayor, Government Relations

Darren Johnson (Chair): What have been your key achievements in the past 12 months, Ian?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think in terms of pushing forward the Mayor’s commitment to work in a more focused and constructive fashion with the London boroughs.

In terms of London boroughs, I think - and Assembly Members who also serve on councils will be aware, but I will repeat it for the record – the 32 plus 1 with the City of London we have a unique governance structure in London. I think the debate around whether that governance structure is right or wrong, ie the existence of a strategic Mayor, is now past and they are big players; big leaders in their own right and deliver statutory services and optional extra services that are decided through the ballot box on a four year term.

If you look at the Mayoral objectives and the objective we all want to achieve - Assembly Members, local councillors, council leaders, the Mayor and us as residents - for London and Londoners - because ultimately we are here to serve whether we are elected or we are lucky enough to be doing a job that I do - we need to work with them or we will not get those things delivered. They deliver for London. We need to recognise that within the piece before we get out the metaphorical bed in the morning.

In terms of my job I think we have made a start on that. We have the first City Charter meeting this week and that - just for the record again - is about delivery. It will not be the Local Government Association (LGA) Compact or the Treaty of Versailles or any other wonderful tomes of paper but it is, shall we say, an experiment to see whether we can get together as an entity to deliver around some specific objectives for London across the political piece.

GLA overseas offices: there was a healthy debate around whether they should stay, in what form they should continue or, indeed, whether they should close. Hopefully Members have seen my report on that; it was decided to keep them but radically different from the image and the job they were doing under the previous incumbent. That includes the Brussels office which is not LGA run but reports now directly into here whereas before there was a dotted line into this building.

Proactive Government lobbying: I would like to go onto that if you ask me a similar question perhaps later in terms of where we go forward on that but that is important not just across the GLA and the GLA group but across the London piece, and I emphasise across the political divide as well, that we make the case for London and we make that in a positive and proactive fashion. I may repeat this later but the old argument about, “Well the north has nicked all our money can we have it back please?”, and reeling off a load of statistics is just not, I am afraid, a credible argument whoever wins the next General Election.

I think that is it; so far. Thank you, Chair.

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Darren Johnson (Chair): In terms of the way you have laid things out I suggest we focus our questions first around boroughs, then around international issues and then around government relations.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am at your command.

Darren Johnson (Chair): Before I bring other Members in just a quick question on borough relations. No one wants to see the Mayor and his advisers unnecessarily wanting to go out and pick a fight with the boroughs but sometimes there is a need to be tough and not simply roll over all the time. How have you been squaring that circle and have there been times when you have had to be quite tough and not necessarily give in to everything they want?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Absolutely. I think I understand that more than most being Mr Thames Gateway Bridge opponent and being Mr Belvedere Incinerator opponent where I died in the ditch to forestall the previous incumbent and (TfL) in terms of the Thames Gateway Bridge. I remember your views on that as well. However in the question of the Belvedere Incinerator I - and the Council I led at the time - joined with the previous Mayor, fiscally and morally, to put forward a petition for a judicial review.

Brian Coleman (AM): A complete waste of public money that was.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Thank you, Councillor Coleman.

Darren Johnson (Chair): I will bring you in in a minute, Brian.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): But I think differences are actually healthy. I think the key to it is how you manage those differences. We live in a political environment. Though I am proscribed from carrying out certain political functions we live in a political environment with a small ‘p’ and we all are principled people I believe but we all want to achieve the desired effect; we want to do well for London. I think it is how you manage those differences.

Also, I think, though it is an overused - perhaps Labour - buzzword openness honesty and transparency in how we manage finances and a straight answer to a straight question goes a long way. There will always be differences between boroughs and, being candid with Members of the Committee - as many Members and officers here know - it is not strictly always on party lines either; that is a far too simplification of the process than the arguments.

So, in conclusion, Chair, I think that is open and healthy, I do not think it is necessarily a bad thing and I think the electorate, the people that we serve, expect that as well. But it is how you manage it.

Darren Johnson (Chair): OK. Thanks.

Brian Coleman (AM): I want to ask about the so-called London Congress. It started with the Compact and now it has progressed to a Congress. I think I heard Mr Clement say something about it was a way of delivering. How can it be a way of delivering? Is it not just another pointless talking shop and another pointless tier in London government?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No, I fundamentally disagree. If, Chair, I could --

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Brian Coleman (AM): What is it going to deliver?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): If I can conclude, Chair, and then you can come back and try to kick my ankles in a second. In London we do suffer from too many pointless talking shops - present company excepted in this building. We do. I served on the London Community Safety Partnership when I was the Executive Member for Crime and Public Protection at - and what a fine title that is!

Brian Coleman (AM): It was like watching paint dry.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It was like watching paint dry and you have obviously seen my quote! However, I had the honour of serving on the London Youth Crime Prevention Board which was chaired by a neutral Lord and that had a particular job of work; that had an end game and that had specific tasks and a specific remit to actually do certain pieces of work. It was very focused and it was very driven.

Now my hope and aspiration for the Charter -- and it is an experiment and we are sucking it and seeing it and if it does not work then we will not do it. If it becomes a talking shop --

Brian Coleman (AM): I am sorry, Chair, I am a bit confused. What is the difference between a Charter and a Compact?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): If I can just finish. What we will do is we will meet this week, we will agree to discuss certain things and then those leaders, those big players in that room, will task the Delivery Board to actually go and do some pieces of work around two or three different strands that we can hopefully deliver together, that we agree on across the political divide and actually deliver for Londoners.

The test will be whether it is successful or not - to answer Mr Coleman or Councillor Coleman. If at the end we can say three or four things that we have actually made a difference -- because you are right, the people out there do not give a monkey’s stuff about Wednesday [29 April 2009 – launch of City Charter] in reality. If you read the Local Government Chronicle it wets your whistle. If you do not read the Local Government Chronicle it does not. But if we can actually prove that we can deliver for London around those two or three things then we have done a good job.

I will tell you why we need to do that; because if we want to argue for funding, if we want to protect the funding we have got, if we want London to be the leader out of this recession, if we want to demonstrate how we -- OK we may cross swords and row with each other and have political points of principle but if we can actually work together and deliver then we can demonstrate and articulate part of that case for London that we can work together, we can deliver for Londoners and we can lead London out of the recession and that is why not perhaps you should give us more power but also argue the case for not just keeping the funding we have got - because there is a risk there - but more strategic and targeted funding and we need to articulate argument no matter who is in 10 Downing Street, Chair.

Brian Coleman (AM): The longer Mr Clement went on the more confused I was. Sorry; what two or three things does Mr Clement think it is going to deliver because the way he was going there it is somehow going to lead us out of the recession or concentrate on economic matters? What area is it going to focus on that is not currently dealt with either by London Government,

3 the old Association of London Government (ALG), or by the Assembly or by the Mayor’s Office or by the Government Office for London? What areas is it going to deliver on?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Firstly, I did not say it was going to lead us out of recession but it articulates why we should be trusted to do certain things in terms of the piece with perhaps an incoming Government, for example. Youth crime, economic -- and also the challenge we face in London is the strength of London is its unique governance structure, ie the 33, the 32 plus 1 - do not want to offend anyone from the City - but London is a series of distinct communities and villages ministered by artificial --

Brian Coleman (AM): Chair, I am loathe to interrupt the officer but what are the two or three things that Mr Clement sees it is going to deliver?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Through you, Chair, either you want the answer, Mr Coleman, or you do not want the answer and continual throwing bread rolls at me will not get me any quicker --

Darren Johnson (Chair): But we have got quite a lot to get through so if we can get to the two or three key things to deliver.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Absolutely. However, Chair, I am entitled to give a full and frank answer and I would not be doing Members justice, yourself justice or the officers justice if I did not give a full answer. If you are looking at youth crime, you are looking at the economic stuff, you are looking at transport, for example, and my point is that the unique strengths of London’s governance is its boroughs but also that is an inherent weakness as well, particularly if you are dealing pan-London.

Many boroughs are seamless. If you go to Friern Barnet Library; that is a stone’s throw from the border of Haringey but I am sure the people of Haringey one road over do not sit there wondering where the border between Friern Barnet and the London Borough of Haringey exists apart from they look at a sign occasionally.

Roger Evans (AM): I think the focus on borough level administration is a very welcome change for this organisation from what we had before but can you just tell us about the Outer London Commission and how that fits into the jigsaw that you have described? Does it report to you, Ian, or it is reporting elsewhere in the structure and what is it going to achieve alongside this Compact?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It reports elsewhere in the structure. The word ‘superhub’ has now been banned.

Richard Barnes (AM): Especially if it is around Brent Cross!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Particularly if it is around Brent Cross. Maybe, through you, Chair, Mr Coleman has a different view on that.

I think the Outer London Commission is an effort - and I think a laudable effort - and the recognition that the suburbs - and we are not just talking about net curtains and suburban detached houses - actually need to be recognised across the economic piece, that we need to look at doing something different and also recognising the need for radial growth around London.

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So it is, once again, an attempt - not an experiment - to actually look at how we can stimulate growth in those suburban areas around London. It is recognising that maybe in the future people will not be always travelling in to London, it is recognising the desire for radial travel and also the fact that many of them are the power houses of the economies, not just dormitories; once again, they are distinct communities and villages. We are trying to do this in a difficult economic climate.

Roger Evans (AM): So where does it report to in the organisation and how does it work with the rest of what you are doing?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It will report back to the Mayor.

John Biggs (AM): As my constituents swim to work across the Thames I will constantly remind them that you have a firm commitment to travel between the suburbs of London and, if they survive the journey, then I will tell them what your name was by the way!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I appreciate that, thank you!

John Biggs (AM): I think everyone likes the idea of politicians loving each other and not being in conflict about issues but would you not accept that this new squidgy partnership with the boroughs will be tested when it is found that there is an issue on which it is very difficult to make it work? I suppose housing targets might be such an example where, up until now, maybe it is the case that there are suburban boroughs who do not want housing and there are inner London boroughs or Thames Gateway boroughs who quite like housing and you can have a sort of Faustian deal where you achieve your targets almost by building in the places that want them and not in the places that do not want them.

Is it not the case that a strategic Mayor for London will, on some issues, need to knock heads together? So if there are loads of jobs being created in west London but no housing there that would be a problem for London and it is quite appropriate that on issues the Mayor will want to beat up the boroughs in a way that they will understand and respect because it is the time honoured process of resolving fiscal issues.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I would agree up to a point; to the point where you have got knocking heads and beating up because we had plenty of beating up and plenty of knocking heads under the previous administration --

John Biggs (AM): You see I am not too sure we did actually. That is a rhetorical device. I would like you to give me an example please.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Having still got the boot marks of the previous administration as a Conservative borough leader then I think I testify to those. If you speak to some of the Labour leader s they would testify to those so it is not across the political divide again.

I think you are entirely correct; that the test will be where there will be tensions and the test will be where the Mayor has to take a different strategic view. But that is like any relationship, any business relationship, any relationship --

John Biggs (AM): Can you give an example where he has had to do that?

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think he had to be tasking around the housing delivery and I think some of the strategic planning decisions the Mayor has made. I think in terms of the negotiations around the City Charter in terms of getting all the parties to the table has been quite a difficult piece. The Mayor’s decisions around the choices on infrastructure and the fiscal finances of TfL now and in the future has been a difficult piece and we are all on a learning curve. So I agree up to a point and I think there will be times when we do disagree but it is how you manage that. It is how you manage that. It is not necessarily about being fluffy or cosy; it is sometimes being in your face but beating up is -- that may be your style, John, but I am afraid I do not subscribe to that.

John Biggs (AM): I think we both come from that school. So it is really just about style? You are saying you are getting the same results, you will have the same issues but they will be resolved in a --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No, it is not about style; it is how you do business and it is about the test of history. The test will be two months before the next Mayoral election you come back and ask me the same questions. That will be the test, I believe, because then fine words will not be enough; there will be an audit trail of either success, failure or indifference. So that will the test will it not, I think?

John Biggs (AM): Two other tiny questions. The next one then is this is the easy bit on river crossings; that you have got to study and look at options but eventually it will crystallise on a particular option. If you are lucky politically it will happen after the Mayor’s term of office has ended but if you are not it will come up with an option which will offend someone and that will be an example, will it not, where you will have to take a strategic view - which is what the previous Mayor did although Bexley may not have liked it - and that will offend at least one of the interests in London?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Once again I agree. I would rather we took the decision before the next Mayoral election and you will have to come down on one view and it will take due process. The problem with the last - and I would like to get this in for the record - is that I was never against a river crossing; it was the arrogance of the previous incumbent, it was the incompetence of the officers at TfL at the time and the sheer incompetence that they also did not think they would have to go to public inquiry.

That was proved by two months before the last election - IRA and Willie Whitelaw [former Northern Ireland secretary] in the 1970s - I was asked how much it would take to buy Bexley off. I had a great shopping list but unfortunately the election intervened; meet at the phone box on the left and we will have a chat. That proved the point and we certainly will not be doing business like that.

Yes, you are right; it is going to be a tough ask.

John Biggs (AM): Final question then is about the City Charter and what your perception of the role of the Assembly is in that?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think in terms of the Assembly the Assembly actually is in a stronger position. I think its role, its ability in law to scrutinise the Mayor and its advisers, its ability to put forward policy options and its ability to question and forensically interrogate in the best fashion still stands.

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I think the illustration of that, in terms of how the executive - ie the Mayor - feels about that is the work together we are doing to, shall we say, make sure that the Assembly is not neutered or becomes a political eunuch in terms of the Select Committee for London. It is just a pity that the Labour Members of Parliament (MPs) do not see it that way.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I am going to go basic, Ian, and I have got a couple of questions that I would like some answers on the record so that I can then refer back to this meeting and get a better understanding about what it is --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I thought everything was on the record here.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- I can expect to see you deliver in six months’ or a year’s time, preferably before the run in to the next elections so if I can just get some simple answers from you. The City Charter. Is there a Mayoral budget towards the City Charter or will all the functional bodies be top sliced to --

Brian Coleman (AM): No, they will not.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No, there is no --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Mr Coleman, the question was not to you if you do not mind.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The straight answer is no. There is no secretariat. It will involve officer time. That is the expenditure. There is no tower behind what you see on Wednesday.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): OK. So, just again for clarity, in six months’ time when we want to see what the Charter has been successful at doing then you would be the officer that we would be looking to? There would be no Chief Executive or director?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. I would - with your acquiescence - gladly appear before you again to answer specific questions about achievements. And, yes, I would.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): There is no chief officer for the City Charter? It is all going to come through your office?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. It is led by the Deputy Mayor for Government Relations. That is part of my remit.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): So you are the lead officer for this whole thing?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Yes.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): OK. I have some queries from the third sector - or the voluntary sector - and their queries are understandable because you say local Government - quite rightly - delivers services and the GLA delivers services. The third sector delivers an awful lot of services. They are not at the table. Why is this?

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Because it is early in the piece and also it is about getting the political budget holders around the table first of all.

I agree in terms of the third sector and, indeed, the third sector in many cases actually deliver services better than a council or whatever could deliver and also deliver them more efficiently and more cost effectively. So I agree but in terms of this this is about getting that London leaders around the table, those London leaders who are members of an executive deliver as London’s elected leaders are trying to deliver on some particular pieces.

Along the time line - and it will not be for my decision, it will be for the leaders and the Mayor - they may want to involve elements of the third sector but that will be necessary in the future and that is not necessarily my decision.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): It is my understanding that the Compact document is going to be taken in private so that even on the day of the launch a body like ours, and indeed councillors, will not have access to that document, if at all. Is that right?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. No, it is not.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Tell me. How will people get access to this Compact document?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): You will be given a copy.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): So every councillor in London is going to get a copy?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I can arrange for every councillor to be emailed. Tell me what you want and I will deliver it for you in terms of that. You are welcome to come and sit and watch the meeting if you want.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): It is my understanding it is a public meeting so I am well aware that I could step in to a public meeting --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): In terms of the document; what would be the point of not having it publicly available?

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Let me put it another way --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): We are not sitting there signing the Magna Carta. There is not going to be some big ceremony. You are not going to play Hail to the Chief and everybody walks on.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Mr Clement, I am only asking you about what I have been told. So you are confirming that there will be no documents that will be held in private about the workings or the work of the City Charter. Is that what you are confirming?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am asking you, Jennette, can you specify what documents you would like to see? The Charter itself, or the agreement that will be hopefully signed between the Mayor and the borough leaders, will be a public document.

Through you, Chair, if there is anything else you would like to see I am more than happy if you wish to email me I will facilitate you seeing those but if you could be specific about what else

8 you would like to see. Would you like to see every email I have sent on the subject, for example?

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I can get facetious, Ian, ever so easily.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Through you, Chair, so can I but that is a straight question and a straight answer so what I would say is do not --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I am trying to get an answer from you --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Well I have just answered you.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- and in fact you have half answered it. I was trying to find out --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I have just answered you. I have not half answered it.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- because I have been told that people have been asking when they would get a copy of the document and they have been informed that the documents were private and that they would be distributed and discussed in a private session of this meeting. All I am asking you to do is confirm if that is the case --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I have answered you already. No. That is not the case.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- and if you have confirmed, no, then that is fine.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): That is not the case.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Right. Because, as I understand it, you will be charged with this organisation as you have said, then I would therefore expect all documents to be available as GLA documents are in the normal fashion because you have confirmed that you are the officer responsible and there is none.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Absolutely. I can confirm that and the answer is no to the first question and yes to the second.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): That is what we are here for. I am here to put questions to you to get clarification and you are here to confirm the answers.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Also, I am entitled to put questions back to you when I do not understand what you want.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Well ask for clarity.

Darren Johnson (Chair): I think we have clarity and I am going to move to Mike Tuffrey now.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Thank you. You set your achievements. For balance, can you tell us what were the disappointments in the first year? What did you not achieve?

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Well I have not got an entourage and I was promised that! I am being flippant, Chair. I apologise for that.

Like anything, I think we could have been quicker with the restructuring in this building. I think we should have been quicker. I think, on the flip side of that, I am sure people like yourself, Mike, understand it was a change of administration in an organisation that had never had a change of administration, it is an organisation where you did not have a leader of the opposition, a new Chief Executive, the nuances had been part of the organised structure within the building and it was very much a new organisation that had only served and worked for and worked with one Mayor. So I think we could have been quicker on the restructuring but I think we are here now.

I think we could have been, shall we say, not as distracted by some of the side issues in terms of people and personalities.

I think we could have done better when we were talking to the boroughs around the difficult choices around the infrastructure that was not going to be in in terms of TfL. I think we could have done that better and that is part of that learning --

Mike Tuffrey (AM): What was your second point, sorry? You said distracted around the side issues?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The personalities. The Mayor is a personality but it is about who is in and who is out, who is flavour of the month this week and who is up London’s top 1,000. Frankly, it bores me to tears. Nobody knows who I am and nobody cares who I am; I just do a job.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Infrastructure discussion with the boroughs. Yes. Anything else?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Because that would take us on to the objectives for the current year and beyond. What are your top deliverables, in management speak?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think it is about making the City Charter work. It is actually making that have a relevance.

Also, in terms of our relationship with the boroughs - back to John’s [Biggs] earlier point which I think was a fair point - fine words are easy and good intentions are, to a certain respect, easy. I think it is now actually making it work. I think it is now where we do disagree actually come to some agreement where we disagree or, indeed, either through negotiation, coming to a particular volition or agreeing to differ so each party understands where we are on particular issues. I think it is about maturing that relationship.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): What are likely to be the flash points? The housing targets, the London Plan --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am not convinced that the housing targets will be the flashpoint - there might be a little bit of a spark - but I do not think it is going to be the raging inferno that we think it may be. I think it is a very, very difficult ask now around the housing agenda.

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In terms of infrastructure commitments there are still big issues around TfL finances.

Also, if we can step back from that because there are big challenges we actually need to face together. If you look at funding for the Underground ongoing, for example, that is a big piece that we need to get our head round and - in terms of the common case for London - I think the only way we stand a remote chance of any success whatsoever is that we get together and act with a unifying unanimity and collective strength; that is Assembly Members, that is the Mayor, that is London’s MPs and the partners we work with, including the third sector.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): I am just trying to identify the likely subject points where that --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): To answer your question as well; there will be things that we least expect will be an issue and could be an issue and some of those happen - through you, Chair - on a day to day basis. Part of my job is interacting with borough leaders on a day-to-day basis, for example.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): I wanted to come on to your job. We are not a Policy Committee here; we are a Business Management and Administration Committee and so we should be focusing on the way things work. You have listed a whole set of topics there which other people in the Mayor’s Office also have responsibility for. I think one of the difficulties I still have is knowing quite who does what and how it is tied together. Can I ask you if you are a member of the Cabinet?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): You mean do I go to the Senior Management Team meeting on a Monday morning? Sorry, I am not being facetious.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): promised us a Cabinet. When I have asked him where it is he says, “Oh yes there is a Cabinet and it meets occasionally” and avoids questions about when and where --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The Senior Management Team regularly meets with the Mayor and also I regularly meet with the Mayor on a one to one basis and also the Deputy Mayor Group regularly meet with the Mayor on a one to one basis. So I would consider, in agreement with my boss, that constitutes a Cabinet form of government.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): So there is a Senior Management Team that meets weekly --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Yes, and sometimes on an ad hoc basis in terms of --

Mike Tuffrey (AM): -- that you are a member of. The Deputy Mayor’s Group is a new one on me.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): We have a regular catch up with the Mayor. It is an experiment to see if we can -- because there are always - as you are probably aware - pressures on the Mayor’s diary and I have a regular one to one with the Mayor in terms of catch up.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): OK.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Also you see him in the lift. It is more than just the formal structure is it not?

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Mike Tuffrey (AM): It always is. But in terms of the formal structure --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): And I meet you regularly for coffee --

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Indeed.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): And I think I buy! I am joking. In fact I meet John [Biggs] for a coffee regularly but I am sorry about outing that, John.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): But he puts things in your coffee!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am sorry we cannot be seen together.

John Biggs (AM): Not regularly.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Not regularly.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): There is a Senior Management Team that --

John Biggs (AM): I think he said, though, he has to go up and down in a lift to meet the Mayor!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I did not say that at all. I know you went to lawyer school with Roger [Evans] but hey. Sorry.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): There is a senior team. Who is on that? What I am trying to understand is how you relate to, say, Richard Blakeway on housing, Simon Milton on planning. On all the issues how does it actually work?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): We need to drill it down a bit further than that because the question is how do we relate. The Senior Management Team is the Senior Management Team. The Chief Executive attends, the Mayoral advisers and the Deputy Mayor. Yes?

Mike Tuffrey (AM): OK.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): In terms of how it relates? We are a team. That is not spin but we are a team so it is not just those formal meetings. I think the strength of a team and the strength of getting a job done is in fact communication and also helping each other out where there is an issue that we need to get -- just like I work with Isabel [Dedring - Director of Environment, GLA] closely on the retrofit stuff around the boroughs. Just like I am a Member of Central London Forward Board and assist Visit London in terms of the tourism launch and the borough contribution there. It is little and often. I am going to Barnet on a visit with Rick Blakeway in the near future.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): I understand that there are a set of informal meetings and one to one meetings and lift meetings and that is the way things work, but there has to be at the heart of it a management structure. This Assembly needs to understand how that works. I do not feel that I do certainly. I do not know whether other Members have that all neatly laid out in their heads

12 or in their papers. Londoners have a right also to know how it works particularly since one of the manifesto promises was to move away from a sofa style government or a cabal of in-people to have an open and transparent system. Various promises were made and I am still going to go on pursuing this point until we get to the bottom of it.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): What you could call a Cabinet meeting is every Monday.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Fine. In which case we will return then to --

Darren Johnson (Chair): Does that take decisions - can we just clarify that - or is it simply liaison and so on?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It is just like any Cabinet style meeting - and I used to chair public Cabinet and private Cabinet when I was leader of the council. Ultimately the Mayor makes the decision but it is about advice and it is about debate, healthy debate, and it is about disagreement and agreement and coming to a collective -- also in that meeting the advisers and the Deputy Mayors go round and review their week and any particular issues coming up so it is that type of --

Darren Johnson (Chair): So it is an advisory body and then the Mayor will go away and sign a Mayoral Approval Decision form later on?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): You mean are you saying that he brings his Mayoral Decision Forms to the meeting and then they are gone through line-by-line or decision-by-decision at that meeting? Is that what you are asking, Chair?

Darren Johnson (Chair): I am asking how it links with the Mayoral decision process?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It is a Senior Management Team meeting where the particular issues of the day -- you know as well as I know it does not always revolve around a Mayoral Decision Form.

Richard Barnes (AM): If I may help, Chair? It is the meeting of the senior management including the Chief Executive, a review of the forthcoming week. It is not a decision making body.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): So as a Cabinet is a decision making body --

Richard Barnes (AM): A Cabinet is a decision making body.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): A Cabinet would be a decision making body --

Richard Barnes (AM): Exactly.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): -- and we were promised that a Cabinet would be formed, it would meet, its agendas would be published, the programme of meetings would be clear, the decisions would be clear and so forth.

So if the senior management thing is not a decision making body, what is the Deputy Mayors’ Group then?

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): It is a catch up.

Richard Barnes (AM): It is a political meeting between Deputy Mayors and the Mayor, a straightforward political meeting - if I may help.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Thank you. I am not really much the wiser about how Ian [Clement] works with colleagues in a formal sense so that responsibility is allocated, it is clear who takes decisions and it is clear how things happen. I am slightly clearer as to what goes on but not how it actually works. Can you help some more or do we need to take this offline?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): You have my job description. We have a regular catch up as the opposition of the Liberal Group leader which I think is quite right and proper. I have specific areas of responsibility and a number of my areas of responsibility do crosscut other Mayoral advisers and Deputy Mayors. In terms of working as a team you can either be precious about these things or I believe in not being precious about these things.

I am just a small part of a team lucky enough to do this job. We have a Senior Management Team on a Monday morning, we have a regular catch up with the Mayor in terms of the Deputy Mayors’ Group when the diary permits and also I have a regular catch up with the Mayor on a one to one basis which includes also reviewing my performance and also in terms of things coming up and me briefing him.

I can see where you are going; you would like to see a formal structure, a public Cabinet type structure where perhaps minutes exist, the public can come and watch the Cabinet in action --

Mike Tuffrey (AM): Not necessarily the public. But we need to know because a) promises were given and b) if you have a session with a borough leader who says dah dah dah - I would have thought it was in your interest to have this - and you promise to take back that point that the borough leader wants dealing with into the system because it cuts across housing, it cuts across planning and it cuts across other colleagues there needs to be a mechanism transparently - not necessarily in open session - where that is taken into the system, it is thrashed out and a decision was reached. Otherwise people will feel, “What is the point of talking to Ian [Clement]; it is not very clear how anything happens”.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The first point is I would be very interested offline to find out what you actually wanted because it sounds like a focus leaflet to me.

Also, the second point is, if the Mayor meets a borough leader formally there are notes at the meeting and action points which are shared with the borough leader after. If Simon [Milton] and I have done a number of borough visits - and I have done a number of individual visits - go to a borough visit, for example, then there are action points agreed at the end of that and they are shared with the Chief Executive of the borough and the borough leader and actions put from those in.

Plus also, just as the world works, there will be ad hoc contact. For example I had a borough leader ring up who wanted to get a message to the Mayor around a particular issue. The way I do that is I spoke to the Mayor in person but I also sent him an email which I also bounced, cover copy, to the borough leader so he had a record that I had raised that point. That helps me remind me to follow that up. So it is about individual self-management as well.

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Two things I am very keen on - and we are talking about working really - I answer my own emails and I will endeavour always to get back to you and try to facilitate an answer or do my best to help you, assist you or give you - not necessarily the answer you want - but an answer. I think there are a number of Members round this room that hopefully I have done that for. Some things perhaps will slip through the net and if I have done that I apologise in advance.

The third thing is it is always about getting that in terms of that business relationship. I think that is quite important; that there is that audit trail if people feed back things and they want actions and that is part of building up that relationship. I think that is quite important.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): I am not saying you are not doing your job in that respect --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No, no. I am just trying to help.

Mike Tuffrey (AM): -- I am saying I do not understand how, if your job is cross cutting relationships, that feeds into the system but I am trying the patience of the Committee. I think I have got as far as I am going to get this morning.

Brian Coleman (AM): Can I just ask a specific question? How many times has the Deputy Mayors’ liaison group met?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The Deputy Mayors’ liaison group? It is a meeting when the Deputy Mayors get together in the Mayor’s office.

Brian Coleman (AM): So how many times have you met?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Once. Two or three times.

Brian Coleman (AM): Two or three times in 12 months?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Yes. Because it is a new thing. It is like suck it and see. The Senior Management Team meet on a Monday occurs every Monday and that has been going since the Mayor arrived in the building.

Darren Johnson (Chair): John [Biggs]?

John Biggs (AM): Without breaching any confidence, I was part of a deputation which went to meet the Mayor and rather than meeting the Mayor we met, I think, six advisers in a room. The sense I got from that was that on the one hand we were flattered to have all that attention but on the other hand it seemed as though everyone was competing on the same issue.

I am guided in this question by the answer you gave to Mike Tuffrey just now when you talked about how you send emails and so on. I am wondering whether you need to have a more formal method of note taking and decision making to avoid confusion and overlap?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think your first point in terms of competing I think we do work well as a team. I think, like any team, it takes time to bed down but I think we work very well as a team.

From my own personal point of view and my own professionalism I am here to do a particular job, I have a job description, I am very lucky to be doing this job and I am not precious about

15 that. Whether I get a paragraph or one line in the Evening Standard, for example, I really do not give a monkey’s stuff.

In terms of formal, we do have a formal mechanism, we do have officers taking notes, we do have action points that are off the back of meetings and we do follow up those actions on behalf of the Mayor or the Mayor follows them up himself. So there is a formal structure that exists that makes sure that - because any fool can do a meeting - on the back of that meeting we actually do business together.

John Biggs (AM): There was a perceived problem with relations with the London Development Agency (LDA) in particular under the previous Mayor where part of the problem was suggested was that different Mayor’s advisers had dipped into the LDA on particular interests and issues. It was presented almost as a cookie jar but that was a side issue. Controlling competing interests and relations with functional bodies and other parties; is that an issue for you?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. Anthony Browne [Policy Director, Mayor’s Office] leads on the Mayor’s relationship with the LDA though I interact with Peter Rogers [Chief Executive, London Development Agency] for example, on a regular basis but Anthony Browne is the conduit into that.

In terms of TfL the Mayor has a transport adviser, Kulveer Ranger, and part of my job is actually to support Anthony [Browne] and support Kulveer [Ranger]. It is back to my earlier point about not being precious. However, I am here to do a particular job. I believe my expertise and experience is an asset to supporting those Mayoral advisers.

John Biggs (AM): Is there still a First Deputy Mayor who leads you collectively?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think Simon [Milton] is the Chief of Staff I believe and I am quite comfortable with that.

John Biggs (AM): So you report to him?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No, I report --

Brian Coleman (AM): Sorry. Is that correct? Is he Chief of Staff? I do not believe that is correct is it? Can the Chief Executive enlighten us?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Can I just clarify, Chair, and answer the question? My view is - because I know this is a googly - no, I do not report to Simon [Milton], I report to the Mayor. However, I am not precious about making sure that Simon or any of the particular Mayoral advisers are kept in the loop and indeed I am not precious about going to Simon or anyone else for advice or discussing matters with them or working in support of them.

In terms of the internal management structures that the Mayor wishes to pursue, whatever the Mayor decides I am more than comfortable with.

John Biggs (AM): I think it is a wide perception that the Mayor is not a hierarchical kind of person and he needs to be protected from his own chaos if you like. So the reason behind these questions - and I do not mean that in a negative sense; I think there is something quite pleasant about it as well - is that he needs to be protected from that and you need to have structures I

16 guess which ensure that he does not trip up by making contradictory promises to people or not having a coherent line of thought to the policy making.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I can see your point in terms of it being endearing but I think that is a little bit of a misconception of our current Mayor. He is more focused and more driven than we would believe and I do not think he necessarily needs protecting.

The bottom line is because of the nature of the beast of the Mayoralty - ie he was not a leader in opposition - he is learning his piece, he is getting his feet under the table and I think he is thoroughly enjoying it. It is quite interesting the first year - although I think this first year anniversary stuff is getting rather tedious - though maybe certain people would not utter it in public it is not exactly what they expected; they expected him to trip over his own shoe laces on the steps on the way in and implode in about ten minutes which clearly not happened.

I think there should be structures and good ways to deal with things but that is about professionalism and good management, that is not necessarily about protecting the Mayor.

John Biggs (AM): OK. I would be interested to hear formally from Mr Clement what the structure is amongst the Mayoral advisers and what Mr Milton’s role is in relation to the other advisers?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): This is not being facetious; in terms of the organisation chart, the structure, who is in charge -- what do you need to know?

John Biggs (AM): If we were down the boozer I would say the perception is that Simon [Milton] thinks he is the head of the office but not all of his advisers agree with that and I guess some clarity about that or clarity as to the fact that it is a meaningless question would be helpful.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think it is actually a meaningless question. I think in terms of the way we operate Simon [Milton] is a big player, Simon brings a wealth of experience and a superb track record - and that is not me hamming his CV up; I challenge anyone to say otherwise - and I think by getting him on board the Mayor has done a good job because he has got a quality person there on board. I think in certain things Simon does lead, in certain things Simon is a good source of advice and in certain things the Mayor does look to Simon to provide leadership.

In terms of formal structures I think that is a bit of a red herring. I think maybe I would question why? Maybe you are trying to make sure that we are efficient or match the Gershon agenda or maybe you are just making mischief. I am not quite sure yet because you have got your nice face on.

John Biggs (AM): I have never made mischief in my life, for the record, Chair!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I meant mischief in the nicest possible way of course, Chair.

Darren Johnson (Chair): We are just seeking clarity and we seem to get a slightly different perception of the workings of the Mayor’s Office with every different Mayoral adviser that we get coming to us!

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Can I just say, for the record, Chair, as far as I am concerned I really do not care. I am just --

Brian Coleman (AM): Sadly we are tasked to care.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I know but I really do not care in terms of -- what I care about - and quite rightly so I think - is that we are delivering, we are doing a good job, we are earning our salaries, we are doing it right, professional and within the spirit of the Code of Conduct and we come here and you look at us and scrutinise us. In terms of who is the biggest Marley within the Mayor’s Office I suggest you ask the Mayor or someone; I really do not...

Len Duvall (AM): What do you say of this quote - referring to the Mayor - “He is seen to rely heavily on a group of former Conservative borough councillors for advice and delivery which leads to the suspicion that localism is actually NIMBY by another name”? Discuss. Considering your bridge contest.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. I think the illustration of that is the fact that --

Len Duvall (AM): Sorry, I should have said it is a Steven Norris [Conservative candidate for 2000 and 2004] quote not the Mayor’s Office.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I read the article last night. No. I think the illustration of that is the current Mayor does not have any political baggage, he is not fighting a class war unlike the previous incumbent and the illustration is that Neale Coleman [Mayor’s Advisor – Olympics] is still working here in the building. If you look, Neale Coleman is a --

Len Duvall (AM): Sorry, can I just stop you? It is referring to ex-Conservative borough councillors advice delivery and he is actually saying that really because of your background - I presume; or you can have a discussion of that - that you are likely to be not wanting to achieve a lot and that really localism - the great voice of localism which I think you and I agree with in the proper context - is being used as NIMBYism. That is the issue. It is not about Neale Coleman or [former Mayor of London]. It is about your role in advising the Mayor and your other ex-Conservative colleagues.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am trying to illustrate it is because it illustrates the point why the Mayor is so pragmatic and has not got that political baggage so actually it is.

In terms of -- forgive me, Len, you said about not wanting to achieve much is that right?

Len Duvall (AM): Let me just quote it again because I like saying this, “He is seen to rely heavily on a group of former Conservative borough councillors for advice and delivery which leads to the suspicion that localism is actually NIMBYism by another name”. I would like your view on that really.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I think if you turn that on its head it is not NIMBYism; it is localism because you have actually got some people from differing backgrounds - not just borough leaders but people like myself - who did not expect to be here doing this now, who have got a track record in local Government which I think is pretty rounded

18 and have worked across parties - I think that is fair to say. We always worked well together when I was on London Councils and you were Chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority. I think that illustrates the power of local. We are here, I think, on merit and I think we --

Len Duvall (AM): Let me ask another question then; why do you think Steven Norris said that then?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I cannot answer for --

Roger Evans (AM): It was in Property Week magazine.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I have seen it. Steve is a sweetie and he is entitled to his opinion and I cannot speak for Steve Norris.

John Biggs (AM): I do not think anyone has ever called him a sweetie.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): That is for him to say. I cannot answer. I think you should ask him yourself.

John Biggs (AM): Can I raise a point of order, Chair, which is that - and I am sure this was inadvertent - but Mr Clement made mention of Neale Coleman who is now formally a civil servant and is therefore outside of any political framework and I think we should be very fastidious in that. I have always assumed that there were card-carrying Conservatives workings for Ken Livingstone’s administration but I never knew of any - or I never searched out any.

I think there is an important point here though which is the advisers in the Mayor’s Office; I would expect them to be Conservatives or fraternal fellow travellers of the Conservatives but, as far as the wider civil service here is concerned, it is non political and as soon as Neale Coleman moved from the Mayor’s Office into the substantive civil service core of the GLA questions about his political allegiance were no longer an issue.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Can I just clarify it for the record? I have - even when he was in the Mayor’s Office - a lot of time and respect for Neale Coleman’s ability, his integrity and, also, I have done business with him in the past as a borough leader.

I was not questioning his allegiance; I was illustrating the point that if one was fighting a class war and if one bore political grudges instead of looking for the best person to do the job, even if there was some resistance from, dare I say it, other political angles, then the illustration that, quite rightly so, Neale [Coleman] is still advising the Mayor - though under a different label around Olympic matters and doing a good job - illustrates my point about the Mayor’s pragmatism. So I just put that for the record.

Darren Johnson (Chair): Thank you.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Can Ian just tell us briefly about the lead that he has on international relations? We have talked a lot about the work that you are doing with boroughs. As important as that is, you yourself said that, as the leading world city, we have a role out there with our other partners. So can you just tell us briefly what are you doing in terms of pitching London out there? For instance, is the work ongoing under your remit around the C40 groups of cities and the wider group as well that I think existed?

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I agree about the world cities though the caveat is that we do not have a foreign policy - we leave that, for good or bad, to Her Majesty’s Government - and we certainly will not use communities within London in a pseudo-diverse way to split them for political advantage. We have a unifying Mayor.

That needs to make the point because that is a distinct difference in policy.

In terms of international relations, yes. In terms of the C40, with my support, Isabel Dedring leads on that because it comes from the environment strand. The Mayor will be going to Seoul. I am not travelling to Seoul because there is no need for me to travel to Seoul.

We have agreed that we are going to keep the international offices. We are now reviewing in relation of the format, fix and fixture of the international offices and where they sit, the job they do and how we can work with our partners - for example the City of London - to achieve a better bang for our buck around the international offices.

Dan Ritterband [Director of Marketing, Mayor’s Office] is doing a strand of work around the branding of London and unifying - though not getting rid of perhaps - this multi vision we have around Think London, Visit London, Student London, Come to London and that kind of thing so we have a more coherent and consistent message. I think that is vitally important.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): OK. So how would we find out then the work of the Shanghai and the Beijing offices in relation to those? Are you saying that individual advisers now relate directly to those offices?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): If you wish to find out the work of the Shanghai office - we do not have an office in Shanghai we have a desk in the British Counsel with one person. I have been there; it is a fine desk. If you wish to find out the work plan of the Shanghai office then feel free to ask me and I will supply that to you. If you wish to find out the ongoing work plan of the Brussels office and ditto and ditto.

If we look, for example, at the Brussels office, the task we face there is it has got to be mainstream within its organisation and it has got to wash its own face. We pay for it so it has to serve the Mayoral advisers and the Mayor and actually, shall we say, do more of that.

Jennette, any information you want if you are more than happy to email me I will gladly provide that to you on a basis whenever you like it.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Chair, I do not understand how I can get this through to Ian; this is not a personal question from me to you; this is a matter for this Committee. So if you can give us an idea of the programme then send it to officers of this Committee --

Darren Johnson (Chair): We can formally minute them --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- and we can formally minute. Do not please keep asking me to send you notes or have offline conversations. It is not what this meeting is about.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I was not asking to have an offline conversation. Of course whatever structural format the Chair decides; I will gladly either do it through officers or cover copy in officers and Members of the Committee. I understand the process.

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Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): The purpose of my questions is to understand the difference between this administration’s working on the international agenda and the previous one and just to put on record --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Well that is quite distinct; we do not have a foreign policy so we do not sprout about the Cyprus question, we do not sprout about the question of Sri Lanka and we do not vent forth on issues of Turkey, for example and also -- hang on a minute because you asked a straight question so you are going to get a straight answer --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I did not ask you about a foreign policy, Mr Clement --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Jennette, you asked about a difference --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): No, I asked you about your work in reading --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): You asked about a difference.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- on international relations.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Chair, you asked about a difference and I am telling you --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I did not ask you about foreign policy --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Just because you do not like the answer or it is not the answer you want you decide to --

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): I did not ask you about foreign policy --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I am sorry. No. You asked what is the difference and I am telling you the difference. Either you want the answer or you do not want the answer.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): No, well I do not need any more answers from you --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): Well you do not need the answer. That is fine.

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): -- because you are clearly --

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): That is fine by me.

Darren Johnson (Chair): So we have a commitment from you, Ian Clement, that you will provide the Committee with details of the programmes of the international offices?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): What I would ask, through you, Chair, is if you could let me know through your office, as Chair of this Committee, exactly what information you require and that could be added to the minutes of this, then I will supply it for you through the officers so that it can be distributed to Members of the Committee and that can be a matter of record.

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Brian Coleman (AM): Chair, sorry, I thought we were going back to the dark days of some of the previous Assembly’s confrontations with Simon Fletcher or John Ross [former Mayoral advisers in the previous administration] for a moment but anyway.

Did you, Mr Clement, have any pangs of conscience about sharing a platform with the Mayor of Shanghai during his recent visit to London?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. Just as you did not have any pangs of conscience coming to the reception.

Brian Coleman (AM): I was there to heckle!

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I did not catch you heckling when I spoke, Mr Coleman.

Brian Coleman (AM): I only refrained from heckling because of the presence of the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

Anyway, can I move on? If the Mayor has no foreign policy -- which I think is right and proper and some of us have issues in our constituencies which we have kept away from the Mayor and I think you referred to one of them. However, why did he therefore, under pressure from Simon Hughes [Liberal Democrat Shadow Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change] I believe, see a group of Tamils last week?

Jennette Arnold (Deputy Chair): Because the Mayor obviously knows his role and is doing it and Ian Clement knows nothing.

Tony Arbour (AM): Why do we not ask Ian [Clement] what he thinks?

Darren Johnson (Chair): If you could answer Brian’s [Coleman] question.

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): The Mayor is dealing with an issue in London that has potential public order implications. Also there will be, potentially, other meetings taking place and also there will be other meetings taking place maybe, possibly with, for example, the Sri Lankan High Commissioner. They are not in terms of foreign policy and they are not to discuss the issue of Sri Lanka - though we all have a private view - but they are discussing particular community issues within London and I think that is right and proper.

Brian Coleman (AM): So in other words if you can dress up your foreign policy issue as a community issue you can still get access to the Mayor?

Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): No. I disagree.

John Biggs (AM): For the record, Chair, he does have a foreign policy view on Venezuela but maybe not on any other country. I think the record will show he has a very comprehensive foreign policy view on Venezuela.

Darren Johnson (Chair): Have we any further questions for Ian Clement? OK. I am not sure if we are fully clear about the workings of the Mayor’s Office and we maybe do need another session on this in the future about Mayoral decision making frameworks and so on but thank you, Ian.

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Ian Clement (Deputy Mayor, Government Relations): I will gladly attend at your request, Chair. Thank you.

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