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dickinson.mech.4 7/3/06 9:39 AM Page 1 Apart from the long interview with Cage ohn Cage was one of America’s most himself there are discussions with Bonnie renowned composers and—from the 1940s Bird, Earle Brown, Merce Cunningham,Minna Juntil his death in 1992—was also among the Lederman,Otto Luening,Jackson Mac Low, most influential thinkers in the field of twenti- edited by peter dickinson Peadar Mercier,Pauline Oliveros, John Rock- eth-century arts and media.From a West Coast well,Kurt Schwertsik, Karlheinz Stockhausen, American background, as a kind of homespun Virgil Thomson,David Tudor,La Monte avant-garde pioneer, Cage gradually achieved Young, and Paul Zukovsky. Most of the inter- “John Cage had, as he says of himself in this kaleidoscopic volume, international acclaim. views were given to Peter Dickinson but there ‘very little experience as a pessimist.’ Here the breeze of his opti- The increasing numbers of performances, are others involving Rebecca Boyle,Anthony mism—challenging, questioning, refreshing—can be felt as nowhere recordings, and studies of Cage’s music Cheevers, Michael Oliver, and Roger Smalley. else.With contributions also from Merce Cunningham, David Tudor, demonstrate beyond question its relevance and other close associates, this is an indispensable portrait of an artist today. But he was also a much-admired writer The British composer, pianist,and writer Peter whose spirit continues to fascinate,chide,and tease.” and artist and a uniquely attractive personality, Dickinson has long been dedicated to explor- —Paul Griffiths , author of The Sea on Fire: Jean Barraqué and able to present his ideas engagingly wherever ing American music. Dickinson studied at The Substance of Things Heard: Writings about Music he went.As an interview subject he was a con- Queens’ College, Cambridge and at the Juil- summate professional. liard School.During three years in New York, “Succeeds in capturing in written form the essence of Cage’s distinc- CageTalk: Dialogues with and about John Cage he wrote for the Musical Courier and the Musi- tive, inimitable personality and presence that was experienced by any- differs from some studies in that it originates cal Times. Dickinson founded the music de- one who talked with him, but which was rarely captured in print.” from outside the United States. The main partment at the University of Keele in 1974 —Charles Hamm,Arthur R. Virgin Professor of source of CageTalk is a panoply of vivid and and its pathbreaking Centre for American Music,Emeritus, Dartmouth College eminently readable interviews by Peter Dickin- Music.He regularly interviewed American son in the late 1980s for a BBC Radio 3 docu- composers for the BBC, and, from 1997 to “The ‘Cage and Friends’ interviews are outstanding.In particular mentary about Cage, whom Dickinson met 2004, was Head of Music at the University of David Tudor, the performing musician closest to and most crucial for CageTalk around 1960 when living in New York City. London’s Institute of United States Studies. Cage, is exceptionally forthcoming.” The original BBC program lasted an hour but He is an Emeritus Professor of the universities —Christian Wolff, composer the full discussions with Cage and many of the of Keele and London. As a pianist, he made Dialogues main figures connected with him have re- first recordings—with his sister, mezzo Meriel with & about mained unpublished until now. Dickinson—of songs by Elliott Carter,John John Cage CageTalk also includes earlier BBC inter- Cage, and Virgil Thomson. His interviews with views with Cage by authorities such as literary Aaron Copland are available in Copland Conno- critic Frank Kermode and art critic David tations (Boydell Press, 2002).He is also the au- Sylvester. And the editor Peter Dickinson con- thor of Marigold: The Music of Billy Mayerl tributes little-known source material about (OUP, 1999) and The Music of Lennox Berkeley Cage’s Musicircus and Roaratorio as well as a (Boydell, 2003). substantial introduction that explores the mul- tiple roles Cage’s varied and challenging out- IS BN 1 - 5 8 0 4 6 - 2 3 7 - 5 jacket image: John Cage at piano overlaid by Sonata put played during much of the twentieth cen- No. 4 (Sonatas and Interludes 1948) Used by permission university of rochester press tury and continues to play into the early 668 Mt. Hope Avenue, Rochester, NY 14620-2731 of Special Collections, F. W. Olin Library, Mills College. twenty-first. P.O. Box 9, Woodbridge, Suffolk, IP12 3DF, UK Jacket design by Adam B. Bohannon ™xHSLFSAy462372zv*:+:!:+:! (continued on back flap) www.urpress.com CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page i CageTalk CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page ii Eastman Studies in Music Ralph P. Locke, Senior Editor Eastman School of Music (ISSN 1071–9989) Additional Titles in Music since 1900 “The Broadway Sound”: The Autobiography The Music of Luigi Dallapiccola and Selected Essays of Robert Russell Bennett Raymond Fearn Edited by George J. Ferencz Music Theory in Concept and Practice “Claude Debussy As I Knew Him” and Edited by James M. Baker, Other Writings of Arthur Hartmann David W. Beach, and Edited by Samuel Hsu, Sidney Grolnic, Jonathan W. Bernard and Mark Peters Foreword by David Grayson Music’s Modern Muse: A Life of Winnaretta Singer, Princesse de Polignac Concert Music, Rock, and Jazz since 1945: Sylvia Kahan Essays and Analytical Studies Edited by Elizabeth West Marvin The Pleasure of Modernist Music: and Richard Hermann Listening, Meaning, Intention, Ideology Debussy’s Letters to Inghelbrecht: Edited by Arved Ashby The Story of a Musical Friendship Annotated by Margaret G. Cobb The Poetic Debussy: A Collection of His Song Texts and Selected Letters Elliott Carter: Collected Essays and (Revised Second Edition) Lectures, 1937–1995 Edited by Margaret G. Cobb Edited by Jonathan W. Bernard Portrait of Percy Grainger Explaining Tonality: Schenkerian Malcolm Gillies and David Pear Theory and Beyond Matthew Brown The Sea on Fire: Jean Barraqué Paul Griffiths Historical Musicology: Sources, Methods, Interpretations Substance of Things Heard: Edited by Stephen A. Crist and Writings about Music Roberta Montemorra Marvin Paul Griffiths “The Music of American Folk Song” “Wanderjahre of a Revolutionist” and Selected Other Writings on and Other Essays on American American Folk Music Music Ruth Crawford Seeger, edited by Arthur Farwell, edited by Larry Polansky and Judith Tick Thomas Stoner A complete list of titles in the Eastman Studies in Music Series, in order of publication, may be found at the end of this book. CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page iii CageTalk Dialogues with and about John Cage EDITED BY PETER DICKINSON UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER PRESS CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page iv The publication of this volume was made possible, in part, through support from the Howard Hanson Institute for American Music at the Eastman School of Music of the University of Rochester, and the Barbara Whatmore Charitable Trust in England. Copyright © 2006 Peter Dickinson All rights reserved. Except as permitted under current legislation, no part of this work may be photocopied, stored in a retrieval system, published, performed in public, adapted, broadcast, transmitted, recorded, or reproduced in any form or by any means, without the prior permission of the copyright owner. First published 2006 University of Rochester Press 668 Mt. Hope Avenue, Rochester, NY 14620, USA www.urpress.com and Boydell & Brewer Limited PO Box 9, Woodbridge, Suffolk IP12 3DF, UK www.boydellandbrewer.com ISBN: 1–58046–237–5 Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data CageTalk : dialogues with and about John Cage / edited by Peter Dickinson. p. cm. – (Eastman studies in music, ISSN 1071-9989 ; v. 38) Includes bibliographical references (p. ) and index. ISBN 1-58046-237-5 (hardcover : alk. paper) 1.Cage, John--Interviews. 2.Cage, John–Criticism and interpretation. 3. Composers–United States–Interviews. I. Series. ML410.C24D53 2006 780.92–dc22 [B] 2006011603 A catalogue record for this title is available from the British Library. This publication is printed on acid-free paper. Printed in the United States of America. CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page v John Cage, ca. 1970. Photograph by Horace. Courtesy of the John Cage Trust. CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page vi CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page vii Contents List of Illustrations ix Acknowledgments xi Introduction by Peter Dickinson 1 Part I: Cage and Friends 1 John Cage 25 2 Merce Cunningham 52 3 Bonnie Bird 67 4 David Tudor 81 5 Jackson Mac Low 93 6 Minna Lederman 102 Part II: Colleagues and Criticism 7 Virgil Thomson 111 8 Otto Luening 122 9 Karlheinz Stockhausen 127 10 Earle Brown 136 11 Kurt Schwertsik 146 12 La Monte Young 152 13 John Rockwell 162 14 Pauline Oliveros 170 15 Paul Zukofsky 175 Part III: Earlier Interviews 16 Cage with David Sylvester and Roger Smalley 185 17 Cage with Frank Kermode 196 18 Cage with Michael Oliver 201 CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page viii viii l contents Part IV: Extravaganzas 19 About Musicircus, Cage with Peter Dickinson 211 20 Introducing Roaratorio, Cage, Cunningham, and Peadar Mercier with Peter Dickinson 217 21 Europeras and After, Cage with Anthony Cheevers 227 Appendix I: Finnegans Wake 233 Appendix II: John Cage Uncaged 235 Selected Bibliography 237 General Index 249 Index of Works by John Cage 263 CT-Prelims.qxd 6/8/06 2:53 PM Page ix Illustrations John Cage, ca. 1970 Frontispiece Following page 22 1 John Cage preparing a piano, before 1950 2 John Cage and David Tudor in Japan, 1962 3 Unidentified female dancer in Europeras 1 & 2, Frankfurt, 1987 4 John Cage and Merce Cunningham, ca.