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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT
Douglas, Tuesday, 17th March, 1987 at 10.30 a.m.
Present: The Lieutenant-Governor (His Excellency Major General Laurence New, C.B., C.B.E.). In the Council: The President of the Council (the Hon. J.C. Nivison, C.B.E.), the Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Arthur Henry Attwell), the Attorney-General (Mr. T.W. Cain), Messrs. R.J.G. Anderson, A.A. Catlin, Mrs. B.Q. Hanson, Messrs. E.G. Lowey, W.K. Quirk, J.N. Radcliffe and E.M. Ward, B.E.M., with Mr. T.A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council.
_ In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. Sir Charles Kerruish, O.B.E.) (Garff); Mr. A.R. Bell and Brig. N.A. Butler, C.B.E. (Ramsey); Mr. R.E. Quine (Ayre); Mr. J.D.Q. Cannan (Michael); Mrs. H. Hannan (Peel); Mr. W.A. Gilbey (Glenfaba); Mr. B. Barton (Middle); Messrs. P. Karran, R.C. Leventhorpe and D.G. Maddrell (Onchan); Mr. B. May and Mrs. J. Delaney (Douglas North); Messrs. A.C. Duggan and D.C. Cretney (Douglas South); Messrs. D.F.K. Delaney and P.W. Kermode (Douglas East); Messrs. J.C. Cain and G.V.H. Kneale (Douglas West); Mr. J.A. Brown (Castletown); Mr. D.J. Gelling (Malew and Santon); Mr. M.R. Walker, Dr. J.R. Orme and Mr. J. Corrin (Rushen); with Mr. R.B.M. Quayle, Clerk of Tynwald.
The Lord Bishop took the prayers.
BILLS FOR SIGNATURE
The Governor: Hon. members, in addition to the Bill for signature on the Agenda, there is one further Bill, the Drug Trafficking Bill, which is also for signature. If you are agreeable we will continue our business while these are being signed.
It was agreed.
PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT
The Governor: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.
Bills for Signature Papers Laid Before the Court T626 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
The Clerk: I lay before the Court:
Estimates - Book of Estimates of Departments of Tynwald, 1987/88.
Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Act 1975 - Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Repeal) Order 1987.
Civil Registration Act 1984; Marriage Act 1984 - Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Fees) Regulations 1987.
Casino Act 1986 - Direction made by the Governor in Council to the Isle of Man Gaming Control Commissioners. Temporary Casino Licence Fee Order 1987.
Income Tax (Instalment Payments) Act 1974 - Income Tax (Modified I.T.I.P.) Regulations 1987.
Hill Cows - Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme 1987.
Beef Cows - Beef Cow Subsidy Scheme 1987.
Social Security - Social Security Legislation (Application) Order 1987. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.2) Order 1987. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.3) Order 1987. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.4) Order 1987. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.5) Order 1987.
National Health Service (Isle of Man) Act 1948 - National Health Service (Isle of Man) General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Police Acts 1962 to 1982 - Isle of Man Police Cadets (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Public Service Vehicles (Inspection) Act 1928 - Hackney Horse-Drawn Vehicles (Inspection) (Amendment) Regulations 1987. Public Service Vehicles (Motor Cycles) (Inspection) (Amendment) Regulations 1987. Hackney Motor Vehicles (Inspection and Condition of Fitness) (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Act 1964 —
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Public Service Vehicles (Licences and Certificates) (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Road Traffic Act 1985 - Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 - Designated Vehicles (Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 1987. Road Vehicles (Licensing and Registration) (Amendment) Regulations 1987.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 - Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 (Amendment) Order 1987. Sea Fisheries Act 1971 - Sea Fisheries (Amendment) Bye-Laws 1987.
Statutory Bodies (Transfer of Functions) Act 1969 - Transfer of Functions (Curraghs) Order 1987. Banking Acts 1975 to 1986 - Banking Act (Exemption) (Friendly Societies) Order 1987.
Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 - Hydrocarbon Oil Duties (Excluded Vehicles) Regulations 1987. Appointed Day Orders - Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Matches and Mechanical Lighters Duties Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Excise Duties (Surcharges or Rebates) Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Customs and Excise Duties (General Reliefs) Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Tobacco Products Duty Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Petroleum Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Minerals Act 1986 (Appointed Day) Order 1987. Orders in Council — period to 31st January 1987 - Notice is hereby given, in accordance with paragraph 15.3(j)(iv) of the Final Report of the Select Committee on Governor's Powers and Duties, of the following Orders in Council affecting the Isle of Man:—
The Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985 (Isle of Man) Order 1986. This Order extends to the Isle of Man the Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985 with adaptations and modifications and came into operation on 23rd December 1986.
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The Reserve Forces 1980 and 1982 (Isle of Man) Order 1986. This Order extends to the Isle of Man the Reserve Forces Acts 1980 and 1982 with exceptions and modifications, and came into operation on 23rd December 1986.
The Merchant Shipping (Certificates of Competency as A.B.) (Isle of Man) Order 1987. This Order provides for the recognition in the United Kingdom of Certificates of Competency as A.B. granted in the Isle of Man and came into operation on 27th January 1987.
European Communities - Applicable European Communities Secondary Legislation for January 1987.
Report - Report of the Isle of Man Postcard Censoring Committee for the two years ended 31st July 1986.
Petition of Castletown Town Commissioners for authority to borrow £40,750, repayable over 20 years, to defray the cost of renewal of the public sewer in Queen Street, Castletown, and Department of Local Government and the Environment's report thereon.
Department of Local Government and the Environment's approval to Petitions —
(1) Petition of Jurby Parish Commissioners to the Department for authority to purchase Jurby Parish Hall from the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties for the sum of 25p.
(2) Petition of Onchan District Commissioners to the Department for authority to purchase a plot of land at Groudle Road, Onchan, containing a sewerage pumping station, for the sum of 25p, from Coastal Development Company Limited.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, may 1 raise a question in respect of these papers? On page 3 you will find 'European Communities — Applicable European Communities Secondary Legislation for January'. Does Your Excellency regard that as sufficient statement of legislation which in effect now comprises about a third of Island law?
The Governor: Well, hon. Mr. Speaker, I take note of your question. It is no answer that we have always done it like this. I will call upon Executive Council after this sitting to review the procedure.
The Speaker: Thank you, Your Excellency.
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CONSTITUTION — LEGISLATION BY U.K. PARLIAMENT - QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER
The Governor: We now turn to the Question Paper, hon. members, and I call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker to ask the first question.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to ask His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor:
As Her Majesty's representative in the Isle of Man, what assurances can you give to Tynwald that the established constitutional convention, which inhibits the Parliament of the United Kingdom from legislating for the Isle of Man except with Tynwald's approval, will not be eroded?
The Governor: In accordance with Standing Orders I call on the Chief Minister to answer.
Mr. Walker: Thank you, Your Excellency. The present constitutional position was clearly described in the report to the Royal Commission on the Constitution 1969 to 1973 at paragraph 1498, which reads as follows:
`The first point we would make is that both the United Kingdom and the Islands have not only rights but also obligations towards each other. The Islands have the right to respect for their autonomy in domestic affairs and to the observance by Parliament of the convention that it does not in the ordinary course legislate for the Islands without their consent on such matters. But coupled with this is an obligation to give all reasonable assistance and co-operation to the United Kingdom authorities in the exercise of their domestic and international responsibilities. The United Kingdom authorities, for their part, have a right to expect this co-operation and in the last resort to intervene if it is not given and intervention is necessary to safeguard their own essential interests. In turn they have the obligation to give all reasonable assistance to the Islands to respect their autonomy and to work for its preservation.'
I can only give Mr. Speaker the assurance that the present Government in the United Kingdom says that it has no plans to alter the present constitutional relationship; that was in the Prime Minister's answer in Parliament on 25th November 1986, and clearly that Government cannot speak for any future Government in the United Kingdom.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Your spokesman has indicated that no assurance can be given other than that given by Her Majesty's Government of the present day. Is the hon. Chief Minister aware of the threat posed to the Island's constitution by the Opposition, who have indicated that it is their wish in certain cases to extend United Kingdom legislation to off-shore islands bringing, them within the scope of certain aspects of company law? Do you regard that as a proper constitutional advance and would Her Majesty's Government in the Isle of Man
Constitution — Legislation by U.K. Parliament — Question by the Speaker T630 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 be prepared to assist it?
Mr. Walker: I am aware of the statement that was made, Your Excellency. I cannot assume what Her Majesty's Governments may do in the future. I can just say to Mr. Speaker that along with many other members of this hon. Court, I share his concern and think that it is a matter that needs some inspection.
VOCATIONAL TRAINING COUNCIL — CREATION OF - QUESTION BY MR. QUINE
The Governor: Question 2. I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine.
Mr. Quine: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Having regard to the present fragmentary approach to vocational training, will you consider the creation of a vocational training council or similar dedicated agency with a duty to —
(a) determine the present and anticipated future requirements of employers;
(b) design training programmes to meet such requirements; and
(c) constantly monitor the execution of training programmes and related matters,
thereby ensuring that there is a comprehensive system of training to meet the demands of the Island's developing business community?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, in reply to the hon. member's question I would say that the Department of Industry has responsibility for industrial vocational training of all persons over the statutory school-leaving age. Responsibility for further education of vocational studies which are related to training rest with the Board of Education. In matters relating to training the Employment Committee of Executive Council is responsible for co-ordinating liaison between the Department of Industry, the Board of Education, the Department of Health and Social Security, the Treasury and employers. It should not, therefore, be necessary to create a vocational training council or similar dedicated agency as all related matters should be dealt with by the bodies already mentioned. Having said this, I must say that I very much appreciate that it is desirable that vocational training should be systematically organised and monitored in the way proposed by the hon. member, and agree with him that this is the principle of the way forward.
Mr. Quine: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the Chief Minister not agree that the Employment Committee of Executive Council neither have the resources, the time, nor the expertise for to maintain a proper overview of vocational
Vocational Training Council — Creation of — Question by Mr. Quine
TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T631
training and that this in fact is what has led to the problems which we hear so much about today?
Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I ask the Chief Minister a supplementary? Is he aware that steps have been taken to place people on a committee which will be in charge of training who actually have the expertise in this sphere?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I can confirm what the hon. member for Council, v Mr. Anderson, has just said. I am aware of that move. I have to say — and members were circulated with my policy speech yesterday — that this matter of the co- ordination, the need of employers to the education of our young people and the re-training of adults, is something that does concern me and I think that it requires a great deal of thought to get the matter right, and I would suggest to the hon. member Mr. Quine that the Employment Committee is a good place to start to look into the difficult problems that are being pin-pointed and to advise on some of the answers.
POLICING OF SOUTH OF ISLAND — QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: Question 3. I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Whereas the Chief Constable has stated that exceptional circumstances have occurred whereby only one police officer has been on night duty and responsible for an area from Foxdale to the Sound, will Executive Council —
(1) ensure that manpower levels are sufficient to ensure that this will not happen again; and
(2) agree that the request for a further increase of 20 constables and four sergeants should be acceded to immediately and not over a three-year period, as in the current proposal?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, in answering the hon. member's question I would like to state that Executive Council shares the view that upholding the law is of great importance to people in the Isle of Man and society in general. I was not aware of the particular situation exampled by the hon. member, but naturally Council would hope that there will be no re-occurrence of the situation of only one police officer being on duty to cover the large area from Foxdale to the Sound, and in this respect has to rely on the organisation of the police force to ensure adequate policing. Any changes to the authorised establishment of the several ranks of the police force are, of course, subject to the approval of the Governor in Council. An increase of the establishment has been considered and agreed to by the Treasury phased over three years. This is considered to be a realistic and practical way forward, not only in financial terms but in relation to recruitment,
Policing of South of Island — Question by Mr. Corrin T632 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 training, supervision and internal organisation. Unfortunately, then, Your Excellency, I cannot give the assurance sought as regards an immediate increase in the establishment as suggested by the hon. questioner.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Would the hon. Chief Minister not agree that in reality it would be at least five years before any benefit is felt from the increase in the manpower?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I do not know why that should necessarily be the case, although obviously there is a running-in period necessary and, as I said, internal organisation would be required to adjust for a large increase all at once in the establishment. I do readily recall some years ago when Tynwald agreed to a large increase in the establishment of the police; local recruits were not available, a large number of police had to be drafted in from other places and I think that the Island faced quite an unhappy situation for a while, and I would hate to see a repeat of that, Your Excellency.
Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Your Excellency. In view of the great deterioration between young people of today and the police — there seems to be a breakdown in communications — if and when these police finally come into being, the extra police that the Home Affairs Board asked for, would the Chief Minister give me the assurance that they will be seen walking on the beat and not riding round in panda cars? Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I believe that the enforcement of law and respect for the police is a two-way thing. I think the police obviously have to do their share of mixing in with the community and I do believe that the community have to have regard and respect to the authority of the law, and I think it is not just a simple matter of making the policeman walk round. There is more to it than that and we obviously know there are advantages in increased mobility as well which have to be compared to the advantage of the policeman walking the beat. But, as I say, I am convinced in my own mind that respect for the law is a two-way thing and it has to be engendered from both sides and I hope that the police also share that point of view.
Mr. Lowey: Could I ask the Chief Minister a supplementary? Would the Chief Minister not agree that the policy as outlined by the Chief Constable in the first week of January of this year regarding community policing and for the policemen to be seen in a non-confrontational situation, non-crisis situation, popularly known `on the beat', is the policy of the police? When we get the proper manpower that will be increased.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I can support that point.
POLICING — ACTION TO INCREASE EFFICIENCY - QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN The Governor: Question 4. I call on the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
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Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
In view of the disturbing accounts of lawlessness related by residents in Rushen constituency at a recent meeting held at Rushen Junior School and the overwhelming call for more efficient policing, what action do you intend to initiate to remedy this situation?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, as I have stated in answer to the previous question from the hon. member, Executive Council naturally relies on the organisation of the police force to ensure adequate policing and that the absence of proposals would not normally take action to initiate changes. I would propose referring the matter raised in the hon. member's question to the Department of Home Affairs for consideration in conjunction with the Chief Constable and I will be pleased to keep the hon. member in touch with their proposals as they evolve.
Mr. Corrin: I thank the Chief Minister for his reply, Your Excellency.
ALL-WEATHER RUNNING TRACK - REMOVAL FROM GOVERNMENT ESTIMATES - QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY
The Governor: Question 5. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr. Cretney.
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Whereas in the past an amount has been included in the financial projections of Executive Government for the provision of an all-weather running track and associated facilities.
Why has this been removed from the estimates altogether?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, in reply to the hon. member's question, I would say that Executive Council considers the provision of an all-weather running track to be desirable. However, it is felt that more time is required to investigate all the sports facilities on the Island and agree priorities with interested bodies. This is the reason for the removal of an amount for the provision of an all-weather running track and associated facilities from the estimates, not an acceptance that a track is not needed.
CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY - STEPS TO INCREASE APPRENTICESHIPS - QUESTION BY MRS. DELANEY
The Governor: Question 6. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas North,
All-Weather Running Track — Removal From Government Estimates - Question by Mr. Cretney Construction Industry — Steps to Increase Apprenticeships - Question by Mrs. Delaney T634 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Mrs. Delaney.
Mrs. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Whereas - (a) the improved state of the construction industry has led to an increased demand for tradesmen which the Island cannot supply; and
(b) despite the fall in the total number of unemployed persons the number of young persons unemployed remains relatively high.
(1) What steps is Government taking to increase the number of apprenticeships in the construction industry?
(2) Will Executive Council —
(a) introduce legislation to require building companies seeking to employ skilled tradesmen who are not Isle of Man workers to employ a proportion of apprentices who are Isle of Man workers;
(b) investigate the ways in which local authorities can be assisted in pursuing a continuing programme of apprenticeships; and
(c) direct that departments, in awarding contracts for capital works, take into consideration the number of apprentices employed by each tendering firm?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, in reply to the hon. member's first question, I would advise that the Department of Industry has approved in principle a basis for extending the provision for training of young people for the construction industry. This will be under the Youth Vocational Experience Programme in conjunction with the development of basic skills courses through consultation with, and approval in principle from, the Board of Education. In association with this provision, approval has been given in principle to implement a revised apprenticeship scheme which will offer more attractive grants to the private sector. a With regard to the hon. member's second question I would say that there are obvious practical difficulties, but nevertheless Executive Council will consider the points raised therein and would add that the Employment Committee of Council in considering the funding of additional apprenticeship places through local authorities and the departments of Government, and that is happening at this present time.
LICENSING — WAITER SERVICE IN ENTERTAINMENT COMPLEXES — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY
The Governor: Before calling on the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr.
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Cretney, to ask question 7, I have a word of preamble. This is a very similar problem to the one we faced at the last Tynwald where we must demonstrate clearly in Tynwald that we are not in danger of debating matters which are before the branches, and you will know that the Licensing (Amendment) Bill to which this question is related is about to go back to the Keys for consideration of amendments proposed by the Legislative Council. I have ruled that the question may be asked but I shall view any supplementary questions that may be asked with considerable scrutiny.
The Speaker: On a point of order, Your Excellency, before calling upon the hon. member, is Your Excellency aware that the Bill which is coming from the Legislative Council bears no resemblance whatever to that passed by the House of Keys?
The Governor: But there are, however, aspects in this question which are related. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr. Cretney.
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Will Executive Council consider introducing legislation to amend the Licensing Acts by removing, particularly, the requirement that large entertainment complexes have waiter service only after 11 p.m.?
Mr. Walker: Thank you, Your Excellency. I really can give no more information than you did yourself, sir, except to inform the hon. member that the current Licensing Bill was amended by the Legislative Council at a sitting on 10th March to provide as he has proposed and, accepting the point made by Mr. Speaker, all I would say is that it was considered a useful vehicle by Executive Council in bringing these amendments forward in due speed.
CASINO LICENCE — ISSUE OF — QUESTION BY MR. GILBEY
The Governor: Question 8. I call upon the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
In view of statements in the March 7th edition of The Peel City Guardian, is it a fact that —
(I) A senior member of the staff of the Palace Hotel and Casino Limited had been secretly contacted by a senior member of Executive Council and fully briefed on the outcome of the licence negotiations;
(2) up to Wednesday, 4th March, the Directors of the Palace Hotel and Casino Limited had still received no formal notification from the Isle of Man Gaming Control Commissioners that their offer for a casino
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licence had been rejected, despite the fact that Government Office put out a press statement to that effect on 26th February;
(3) (a) an agency of Government has been considering or planning for Hamblins to take over part of Summerland for a kursaal-style operation, similar to the one at the Palace Lido; and
(b) the learned Attorney-General advised against such a plan?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I raised the question referred to in part (1) of Mr. Gilbey's question at Executive Council and was assured that no member had secretly contacted a senior member of the staff of the Palace Hotel and Casino Limited in connection with the outcome of the casino licence negotiations. The directors of the Palace Hotel and Casino Limited were hand-delivered a copy of the press statement shortly after 5.30 on 26th February 1987 following the conclusion of Executive Council's meeting some three-quarters of an hour previously. The press release contained all the relevant information, and I have to say, sir, that I regret a separate letter was not sent to the Palace Group indicating that their offer would not be recommended. As far as part (3) is concerned, I am aware of the suggestion that Summerland could possibly be a venue for the kursaal-style operation but can assure hon. members that this detail was not taken into consideration when the proposal to issue the temporary casino licence was being considered, and the Attorney-General did advise that Hamblin's proposal only referred to the Sefton Hotel.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. first Minister for his reply and thank him for his assurance that he is sorry that they were not informed about the situation. Could he give us an assurance that in future the appropriate departments of Government will always be told that people applying for licences et cetera should be properly told at once?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I am sorry that the hon. member felt he had to ask that last question. I did say I regretted that a separate letter was not sent, and in saying that I intimated exactly that. I regret it and I hope I do not have to regret it in another similar situation again, sir.
CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTS OF GOVERNMENT - CONTRACTORS' REQUIREMENTS — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY
The Governor: Question 9. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr. Cretney.
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chief Minister:
Will Executive Council consider making it a requirement in the allocation of Government contracts for construction projects that contractors —
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(1) be registered with the Building Trades Council;
(2) employ a number of apprentices in ratio to the size of contract;
(3) purchase locally all materials available in the Island; and
(4) adhere to all health and safety regulations?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, Executive Council is aware of the matters referred to on construction projects and I would respond to the points raised as follows. It is a condition that contractors seeking to tender for construction projects projects are registered with the Building Trades Council. By resolution of Tynwald only registered masters may undertake work in the building industry in the Isle of Man which is financed wholly or in part out of public funds. An apprenticeship lasts for a period of four years, whereas the duration of a construction project is generally less than two years, so there are practical problems in tying up apprentices with the awards for development. Executive Council is conscious of the need to increase the level of apprentices within the construction industry and feels that this can best be achieved through the co-operation of the contractors and not be legislation. Part (3) of the question, of course, is incorporated within all Government construction projects to the effect that preference shall be given to the use of Manx products provided that they comply with the specification and are readily available at competitive prices, and again, Your Excellency, there are obvious practical difficulties in enforcing this clause. What is unacceptable to me personally is that a cost be based on local supplies when a tender is agreed and then cheaper imports substituted and I find that, as I say, unacceptable. I would respond to the last part of the question by saying that clauses are incorporated within all Government construction projects concerning health and safety. I trust that this adequately covers the matters raised by the lion. member.
Mr. Cretney: Some supplementaries, Your Excellency. A supplementary to part (1) of my question — could the hon. Chief Minister indicate why, if it is correct that contractors should be registered with the Building Trades Council to carry out Government work, it is not found to be necessary that they should be registered to undertake work in the private sector? I understand the Chief Minister on part (2) indicated that apprenticeships were over four years. It is my understanding that they are for a period of three years now. And under (4), where I state about adhering to more health and safety regulations, what checks are made and how often are checks made on projects being undertaken on behalf of Government to make sure that all health and safety regulations are being adhered to?
Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Is it not Government policy that we take the lowest tender and is not the reason we have got a lack of apprentices because of Government's refusal to increase the grant scheme for apprentices? And can the Chief Minister come back to us with an increased scheme so that employers will be tempted to take more apprentices on?
Construction Contracts of Government — Contractors' Requirements - Question by Mr. Cretney T638 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
The President of the Council: A supplementary, Your Excellency. May I ask the Chief Minister if he would consider that questions like the last seven questions might be directed to the minister in charge of the department concerned rather than he spend so much time dealing with small matters when there are such important matters awaiting attention?
The Governor: I hesitate to answer for the Chief Minister, but of course the point here is that under our Standing Orders a question that is asked cannot be re-directed except where that question is asked of the Governor himself, and therefore I believe what Mr. President of the Legislative Council has just said is a comment addressed to every member of this hon. Court rather than to the hon. Chief Minister himself. I call upon the Chief Minister to reply.
Mr. Walker: Thank you, Your Excellency, and can I say that the remarks you have just made I would echo; I think there is a need for a facility to transfer questions to a responsible authority from the Chief Minister, and I think that the Standing Orders Committee should look at that particular problem. As far as the direct supplementaries are concerned and in response to the hon. member for Douglas South, he appeared to be saying that there was a technical problem between the registration of a company for Government work and allowing it to work in the private field. I am not aware of that problem but perhaps the hon. member would like to expand on it and we will certainly look into that one. The number of apprentices in ratio to the size of the contact, and the hon. member said it is only three years rather than four — that may be the case. The point I was making is that it is different to equate that period of time with the length of the period of a contract and I think above all else, for apprentices, continuity of work is important for them to complete their training in the proper way and I think we have all experienced in our constituencies the situation where apprentices are taken on for the duration of a job and then have to be dismissed because the work fails away and that situation has been found to be unacceptable. As far as health and safety regulations are concerned, Your Excellency, as I have said, there is a clause written into Government contracts which indicates to employers that they have got a responsibility and they should take that responsibility into account when they put in their tenders for their works. Under that Act there is a responsibility both on the employer and the employee to make sure that health and safety requirements are adhered to, and from the employer's end when Government is awarding the contract, checks are made by the Health and Safety Executive, but they are certainly in a situation where I have to accept they are understaffed, but there is also a responsibility with the Clerk of Works who is supervising the jobs for Government to keep an eye on the health and safety at work. But the main responsibility is the responsibility of the employer and the employee to make sure that these regulations are adhered to.
Mr. Cretney: A further supplementary, Your Excellency. On the first point where the hon. Chief Minister asked me to expand a little, could I indicate that it appears that Government is pursuing a two-tier system within the construction industry, whereas those who are registered with Government to undertake Government projects have to take full account of health and safety, apprenticeships
Construction Contracts of Government — Contractors' Requirements - Question by Mr. Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T639 and all that kind of thing when they are tendering for work, and that in effect makes them uncompetitive when it comes for them to tender for private sector work.
Mr. Walker: The hon. member is referring to a problem that arises where a firm takes on his employees directly, pays them, pays his contributions to social security, fulfils his obligations under health and safety — their disadvantage as compared to the advantages of an employer who uses on the lump labour, he takes on small self-contained gangs for the purpose of a particular contract and then removes them. He has pointed to a problem and I would suggest to him that if he can find an answer for that particular problem then the authorities concerned would be very interested to hear it. Itis a difficult problem but there is also a need, I think, Your Excellency, for Government to accept the lowest tender — and I am just responding to the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran. There is a need for Government to accept the lowest tender unless a jolly good reason can be found why that shall not be the case.
PROSECUTIONS - RIGHTS OF REDRESS AGAINST SENTENCES MADE IN ERROR - QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER
The Governor: Question 10. I call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to ask H.M. Attorney-General:
When an individual is prosecuted for a breach of the law and sentenced in error because a salient point known to the prosecution which could have affected the Court's decision had not been revealed by the prosecution, what right of redress does the individual have?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, if a person who has been sentenced by a Magistrates' Court believes that his sentence is too harsh or wrong in principle or that the court has acted on incorrect information, he may appeal to the Staff of Government Division of the High Court. Under Section 2 of the Summary Jurisdiction Act 1956 a petition of appeal must be lodged within 28 days, but the magistrates do have power to extend that time limit.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, could the learned Attorney-General explain how a constituent of mine, Alec Moore Kelly of Ballameanagh, Lonan, was ordered to pay £409.64 in arrears of National Insurance contributions when in fact the full amount was paid three weeks before the summons was issued and this fact was known to the Department of Health and Social Security and to his office? That was known, of course, before the case was heard. In a case of miscarriage of justice such as this, are you prepared to take action as opposed to putting the person involved to the expense of going to an appeal court?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, two questions arise: first of all the
Prosecutions — Rights of Redress Against Sentences Made In Error - Question by The Speaker T640 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 amount of the fine. If the person concerned feels aggrieved about the fine which was imposed he should appeal, and in the circumstances it would be most unwise of me to comment on the case in advance of the matter being considered by the Staff of Government Division. As far as the order that he paid the arrears, obviously that is a nullity because the arrears had been paid, so the question of that order does not cause any difficulty. • The Speaker: I would appreciate that the question of arrears has a bearing on the fine and could you assure the Court that there is not creeping into your administration a vindictiveness in prosecution which could give rise to public concern?
The Attorney-General: Well, the decision about the prosecution of offenders who fail to pay National Insurance contributions is principally a matter for the Department of Health and Social Security and that department makes the decisions. My office simply acts on behalf of the department. Whether the department is being vindictive in prosecuting persons who fail to pay their National Insurance contributions is a question which I think, Your Excellency, should be directed to that department. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the supplementary need not be directed to the department; it relates to prosecuting attorneys who seem to have little regard for, I should say, the rights of those being prosecuted.
The Attorney-General: I am not going to add, Your Excellency.
The Governor: No, and I must add, I am afraid that that last comment is contrary to Standing Orders. (Laughter)
POLITICAL SURGERIES BY M.H.Ks — QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER
The Governor: Question 11. I call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to ask H.M. Attorney-General:
Have you given a ruling that political surgeries held by members of the 0 House of Keys for the benefit of their constituents should not be announced on Manx Radio?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, after some research I discovered that in October 1984 I was asked to advise Manx Radio about a proposed radio notice about what was described to me as a 'political clinic'. I advised that a political clinic must inevitably be regarded as being directed towards a political end in terms of the schedule to the Broadcasting Commission (Isle of Man) Act 1965 and that Manx Radio should therefore decline to broadcast the notice in question.
The Speaker: Are you still of the same opinion that when a Member of the House of Keys wants to hold a surgery and wishes the community to know in the interests
Political Surgeries by M.H.Ks — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T641
of the community, Manx Radio should be forbidden to broadcast such an announcement?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, paragraph (3) of the schedule to the 1975 Act states that no advertisement shall be permitted which is inserted by or on behalf of any body, the objects whereof are wholly or mainly of a political nature, and no advertisement shall be permitted which is directed towards any political end or has any relation to an industrial dispute. An advertisement placed with Manx • Radio by a Member of the House of Keys which could in any way be said to be directed towards a political end is therefore not permitted. Clearly an advertisement broadcast during the course of an election campaign would inevitably be regarded as having a political end. In other cases the precise terms of any proposed advertisement and the time and circumstances in which it is proposed to be broadcast would have to be considered to determine whether it was directed towards a political end. It is a matter for Manx Radio to determine which advertisements they accept, and if there is some doubt as to whether an advertisement is or is not directed towards a political end, the radio station would in my view be wise to take a cautious view and decline to accept such an advertisement. The decision in each case, however, must be left to Manx Radio.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, a supplementary. In view of the fact the learned Attorney-General is indicating to Manx Radio that they should not accept any political announcement whatever, what is the Attorney's view in respect of appearances by hon. members on Mandate and other programmes with political advertising?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, this does not appear to be directed towards the question of advertisements. The Act talks about advertisements directed towards a political end and I cannot really go beyond that.
Mr. Cretney: Could I ask a supplementary, Your Excellency? Whereas often it appears in particular on the Mannin Line groups or individuals or people get on and describe themselves as under a particular banner, would that not be considered to be trying to achieve political gain by that way?
The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I suffer from a marked disadvantage is answering this question. Living in Kirk Michael I find the greatest difficulty in hearing it down there! (Laughter) I must therefore leave it, Your Excellency, to hon. members to decide that question themselves!
CASINO LICENCE - FINANCIAL POSITION OF FIRST HAMBLIN LIMITED QUESTION BY MR. GILBEY
The Governor: Question 12. I call upon the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey.
Casino Licence — Financial Position of First Hamblin Limited - Question by Mr. Gilbey T642 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
Before the Governor in Council agreed to issue a direction to the Isle of Man Gaming Control Commissioners regarding the granting of a casino licence to a Manx registered company which will be a wholly-owned subsidiary of First Hamblin Limited, part of the Hamblin group of companies —
(1) Had the Treasury considered the report and financial statements for the year ended 30th April 1986 of First Hamblin Limited and its subsidiaries? (2) If so, what advice did they give to the Governor• in Council about the accounts in relation to the obligations to the Isle of Man Government that it was intended First Hamblin Limited and its subsidiaries would enter into? Mr. Cannan: In reply to the question of the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey, I would advise him that the officials of the Treasury were asked by the Gaming Control Commissioners to comment on the Hamblin accounts and did so. The Treasury Board itself was not asked to consider the report and financial statements of First Hamblin Limited or its subsidiaries and gave no advice to the Governor in Council about the accounts. The detailed examination of the public accounts of Hamblins has been undertaken by the accountant to the Gaming Control Commissioners and he has advised the commissioners on matters relating to the Hamblin group's finances. In turn, the chairman of the commissioners reported to the Governor in Council. Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary? Whereas Section 3 of the Treasury Act as set out on page 80 of the Estimates states that one of the duties of the Treasury is to supervise and control all matters relating to financial affairs of Government and consider all matters of financial and economic policy affecting the present and future prosperity of the Island, should not the Treasury have looked at these accounts?
Mr. Cannan: Unofficially the Treasury did look at these accounts — and I speak now of the Treasury Board. I have already said that the officials gave advice to the Gaming Control Commissioners and the accounts of Hamblin Leisure, the company operating the gaming activities of Hamblins, were found to be less than satisfactory. However, the local company to operate the casino in the Isle of Man was to be a subsidiary of First Hamblin Limited, the main Hamblin company, and First Hamblin has capital and reserves of around £4-5 million and the local company would have had net assets of about three-quarters of a million.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. member for his answer.
UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS — QUESTION BY MR. BARTON
The Governor: Question 13. I call upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr.
Unemployment Statistics — Question by Mr. Barton TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T643
Barton.
Mr. Barton: Your Excellency, 1 beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:
(I) Is the total of unemployed persons issued weekly by your department misleading in that it includes over 200 people who are not seeking and are unavailable for work (having only signed on for credits)?
(2) If so, will your department consider removing such persons from the totald of unemployed persons, and detail them separately?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, in answer to the first part of the question I have to say that the hon. member is under a misapprehension. Persons signing the register only for credits have to satisfy exactly the same conditions as those signing and in receipt of benefits, so, for example, you have to be available for and seeking work. When signing for credits they make such a declaration. It follows therefore that we must accept their unemployment and it would inappropriate to proceed as suggested in part (2) of the question if the unemployment figures published by the department are to properly reflect the numbers registered and available for employment.
Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. May I ask the Minister for Health and Social Security, is he aware that this question has been raised on a number of occasions, but it has been the continuous policy of this Government, unlike the Government in office at this time in Britain, that we do not manipulate the figures of the unemployed so that at least we understand who else is unemployed and the reason they are unemployed!
Mr. Brown: Yes, Your Excellency, I think if we are to have figures they must be meaningful figures, both for the public and for the Government and therefore it is not out intention to in any way play around with the figures to give a possible false implication.
DEATH GRANT — ABOLITION — QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER
The Governor: Question 14. 1 call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:
(1) Does your department intend to abolish the death grant of 125 in the Isle of Man?
(2) If so —
Death Grant — Abolition — Question by The Speaker T644 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
(a) is such a decision connected with any reciprocal arrangement with the United Kingdom; and
(b) has your department considered the effect of such action on the majority of Manx people who are on relatively low incomes?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, the simple answer to the first part of the question is 'yes'. Deaths occurring on or after 6th April 1987 will no longer attract a grant payable under Section 32 of the Social Security Act 1975 which is being repealed from that date. The question refers to a grant of £125. I should perhaps make it clear that this is the maximum rate for grant payable in the Isle of Man and about one in four of all deaths in the Island attract only the lower United Kingdom rate of £30. These are cases where the deceased's contribution records are held in the United Kingdom — for example, a pensioner who moved to the Island after retiring in the United Kingdom. In answer to paragraph (a) of the second part of the question, I confirm that the United Kingdom's decision to repeal Section 32 of the Social Security Act 1975 is one which we must follow by repealing that section in the Act as it has effect on the Island because of the nature of the scope of our reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom. That is not to say that we could not in substitution establish a scheme of universal grants in respect of deaths in the Island, based, say, on some test of previous residency and operated outside the reciprocal agreement. Therefore I hope hon. members will take the opportunity later, when I move the Social Security Legislation (Application) Order 1987, to voice their views on the type of death grant scheme they wish to see operate in the Island, and I shall enlarge on my department's views at that time. With regard to (2)(b) of the question, we have considered people on low incomes and it would be our intention to extend to persons in receipt of family income supplement the same type of help towards funeral expenses as currently exists for supplementary beneficiaries who have to take responsibility for funeral costs.
The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Is the hon. chairman aware that on June 17th 1981 this Court unanimously approved of an increase in death grant from £40 to £50? Again, that was increased from £50 to £100 and subsequently, in 1984, increased to £125. On each and every occasion the House supported these increases unanimously in the belief that there was a need for this provision in the Isle of Man. Are you now telling us that because of an English development with regard to National Insurance, you are proposing to withdraw completely and not make a substitution until such time as the Court indicates to you its wishes? In other words; are you not prepared to give a lead in this matter and show a little bit of heart from your administration?
Mr. Collin: Your Excellency, would the minister agree that the death grant has been very much a means of helping to remove financial worries to many of those in times of considerable personal stress? And would he also refute any suggestion that the death grant could be interpreted as a charter for the undertakers to make excessive charges?
Death Grant — Abolition — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T645
Mr. Cretney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Could the hon. Minister for Health and Social Security indicate, as this has been an on-going matter — I understand it has been under discussion from the department for — some considerable time — what the views of the former department before he and his colleagues took over the department — what their viewpoint was on this issue?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, with regards to Mr. Speaker's comments regarding the changes since 1981, I am aware of the changes that have been taken and the views of this hon. Court at that time. May I just say that this hon. Court has substantially changed since 1981 and therefore we would take on board that. With regards to a lead in the matter, Your Excellency, my department has got its own views on this matter and I will be making those clear when we are discussing the — or at least I will answer part of it anyway — actual order which comes in to ending the reciprocal agreement, and I think hon. members need to be careful in ending the reciprocal agreement; there is a different need for doing that with regards to what the Isle of Man has for its own death grant. I would also just say that it is not my intention just to continue necessarily to follow other peoples' ideals, although I have to take point of what Tynwald's views are in such matters. I have to say that I am not convinced that the death grant is the best use of money in this area, and also I would remind members that there are other changes happening in legislation which provide, for instance, a £1 ,000 lump sum payment on death to a widow when the death happens, instead of a weekly payment after 26 weeks. But again, that is something in the pipeline. With regards to a charter for the undertakers, I cannot answer that question, Your Excellency. I have no evidence as to whether it is a charter or not. The hon. member Mr. Cretney asked the question, what were the views of the previous department? The previous department's views were that we should have a death grant based on a universal death grant. This department, as it is now, re- considered all that and all the facts that are available to us and we were not convinced that that was the best way to go, but again, in saying that, I am hoping to use the opportunity of the main order, which is to end the reciprocal agreement, to give hon. members an opportunity to put their views forward. That does not necessarily mean, Your Excellency, that my department will not take note of those views. I have my own feelings on this and I will make those clear at that time, Your Excellency. May I also say, with regards to hardship some 75 per cent. of deaths are actually paid by private people and therefore only 25 per cent. are actually funded by the state through the supplementary benefit system. It is a very emotive issue, Your Excellency. I would just say that I can identify within our own budget other areas where I believe this money could be put to help people in a different way and be of far more benefit in general terms throughout the Island. That is something my department will weigh up before we bring the order to this hon. Court next month.
The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Has this decision been approved by Executive Council, as your ministry obviously relates to Government? Secondly, before you bring your proposals to this Court, recognising this is a changed Court, will you also recognise that this Court has still care for the individual need and in no way reduce the death grant in whatever form or under whatever name
Death Grant — Abolition — Question by The Speaker T646 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 you bring it in the future?
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, the hon. minister brought into the question the subject of a widow's payment, a lump sum widow's payment. Can he confirm that that payment will only be applicable after April 1988 if regulations are approved and, in the meantime, that widows on the Isle of Man will be in a worse position until that time? Thank you.
Mr. Brown: Yes, if I can answer the last part first, Your Excellency, that is true it is 1988. That does not mean to say that this hon. Court could have an interim measure until 1988 when that comes into being, so that is an option that we could consider. We are aware and very conscious that that benefit does not come in until then. Could I say that Executive Government are aware of the orders that are on the Agenda today as I am sure Mr. Speaker is aware. With regards to —
The Speaker: Do you support them?
Mr. Brown: The orders that are on the paper today have the support simply because those orders have to go through because they are part of the reciprocal agreement. The other matter is a secondary matter which comes later, which is whether we have our own individual system of grant aid which has nothing to do with any reciprocal agreement. That is another stage to be taken and we would hope that anything we come to in April would be retrospective back to the date of this order coming in now. With regards to the care for individual needs, I would just say to Mr. Speaker and to this hon. Court, Your Excellency, I, as many members of this Court, am aware of individual needs. What I have to say is, I am not convinced that the amount of money we are putting into this area is the best use of Government resources to help people who, in my opinion — and I am not the only one alone in this — have far greater needs who, in fact, are not getting the support and help from Government that they justly require, and it is that area that I am looking at. The only other option of enhancing and helping these other people would be for Government to substantially increase the vote of the department.
DIABETICS — PRESCRIPTION OF FREE SYRINGES - QUESTION BY MRS. HANSON
The Governor: We move on, hon. members, to question 15. The hon. member for Council, Mrs. Hanson.
Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:
Will your department give consideration to the procedure which will permit family doctors to prescribe free disposable insulin syringes for diabetics?
Diabetics — Prescription of Free Syringes — Question by Mrs. Hanson TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T647
Mr. Brown: Thank you, Your Excellency. Could I thank the hon. member for the question and say that I am pleased to say that the answer to the hon. member's question is 'yes'. In fact, the matter is already under active consideration with a view to seeing if, despite the strict financial limits within my department, we can somehow provide free disposable syringes and prescriptions for diabetics. This is something I personally believe should have been done years ago and is an area, for example, where we are looking at, but it is very dependent on the moneys available to my vote.
Mr. Bell: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Could the hon. minister inform this Court whether or not there are in fact any registered drug addicts on the Island and is his department considering following the United Kingdom moves at the moment to provide free needles for these registered drug addicts?
Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary question? Is the hon. minister aware that from April 1st in the United Kingdom it is mandatory for doctors to be permitted to issue free syringes to diabetics?
Mr. Brown: Yes, Your Excellency. The last question first, if I can again — yes, I am aware of that, but that does not mean that we have done anything about it yet because that move was taken in the United Kingdom quite suddenly. We have no information on that yet. We have not costed out what it will cost the Isle of Man, but I have answered the question, it is under consideration and will be discussed at our meeting on Wednesday, 1st April 1987, where we will be looking at this subject yet again. We have discussed it from the initial announcement in the United Kingdom, and may I say, with regards to looking at disposable syringes and prescriptions, in fact we were looking at that before the United Kingdom announced what they were doing because, as I say, it is something I and my colleagues feel is something that the Government should be looking at actively, and in fact we are looking at the whole idea of free prescriptions in the general area. With regards to the registered drug addicts, I have not got that information, Your Excellency. I believe there are some registered in the Isle of Man, but I can find that out for the hon. member and I would just say that we have not at this stage considered whether we shall be giving free disposable syringes to those people, but I am sure that that will be considered along with everything else.
Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I thank the hon. minister for his reply?
SOUTHLANDS, PORT ERIN - PROVISION FOR GERIATRIC WARD AND CONVALESCENT UNIT - QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: Question 16. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:
Southlands, Port Erin — Provision for Geriatric Ward and Convalescent Unit - Question by Mr. Corrin T648 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Whereas —
(a) there is a depth of feeling in the south of the Island against the present arrangements of removing senior citizens from the local environment and, frequently their friends, when they reach a time in their lives when nursing support is required; and
(b) the professional nurses take the view that a need exists in the south of the Island for approximately six to eight beds for convalescent support for patients ex-hospital but potentially vulnerable in their own homes.
Will you give an assurance that a senior citizens ward (geriatric) and appropriate convalescent unit will be seriously considered as complementary to Southlands, Port Erin, and not be included in estimates for future developments at Ballamona?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I am happy to given an assurance that a geriatric ward and appropriate convalescent unit will be seriously considered as a possible extension of the facilities currently available at Southlands. What I cannot do, however, is prejudge the outcome of that consideration by also giving an assurance that such facilities will not be included in estimates for future developments at Ballamona or elsewhere. As a member of the Southern Authorities Health Care Committee, I too am well aware of the desire to see facilities such as these provided in the south of the Island. However, the Department of Health and Social Security is responsibile for health care throughout the Island and has to determine priorities based on medical and social need and the availability of both capital and revenue finance. At the end of the day it comes down to making the best possible use of the resources we have and I can assure this hon. Court that that is the way my department intends to carry on.
UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT - DISQUALIFICATION PERIOD — QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: Question 17, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:
(1) Why is the right to unemployment benefit and the maximum period of disqualification from benefit therein from six weeks being increased to 13 weeks under the Social Security Act 1982 and the Social Security Legislation (Application) Order 1987?
(2) Have you received representations in writing from the appropriate Isle of Man D.H. S. S. Appeal Tribunal that this increased penal sanction is necessary? Unemployment Benefit — Disqualification Period — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T649
(3) Is it a fact that Isle of Man employees do not have the same employment protection rights to pursue which may assist them in avoiding this severe penalty?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, unemployment benefit is intended to provide against the contingency of involuntary unemployment as a measure of protection for the National Insurance Fund against those who contribute to their own unemployment. Section 20 (1) of the Social Security Act 1975, as it has effect both in the Island and in the United Kingdom, provides for the disqualification for the period of those who have brought unemployment upon themselves. By Section 43 of the Social Security Act 1986 of Parliament the maximum — and I emphasise the maximum period — of disqualification was increased from six to 13 weeks. That section came into force in the United Kingdom in respect of claims to benefit lodged on or after 5th October 1986. For the purpose of the reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom which extends in full to unemployment benefit, it was necessary for a corresponding adjustment to be made in the Isle of Man Social Security law. That application order was approved by this hon. Court at its sitting in October last and thus the revised maximum period of disqualification of 13 weeks has been in force in the Island and in the United Kingdom since 5th October 1986. As to the second part of the question, I confirm that no such representations have been received, nor, I imagine, would the Appeal Tribunal see it as part of their remit to concern itself with such matters. A tribunal's function is principally to receive, hear and determine appeals lodged by claimants to social security benefit who are disatisfied with the decisions of the adjudication officers on their claims. A tribunal is not a social security advisory or consultative body. So far as the third part of the question is concerned, it should not be seen that disqualification only arises while employment has been terminated. Section 20(1) of the Social Security Act 1975, which provides for a period of disqualification, contains six sets of circumstances in which a disqualification shall be imposed only two of which, misconduct or leaving voluntarily, arise on the loss of a job. The other four arise in connection with a person's failure to take reasonable steps to end his unemployment, and therefore the matter of employment protection rights is irrelevant in these circumstances. It is, of course, a fact that in the United Kingdom statutory protection is provided against unfair dismissal by an employer. Cases do arise when a claimant has complained to an employment tribunal that he has been unfairly dismissed, and at the same time an adjudication officer has to consider whether the action of the claimant which led to the dismissal amounted to misconduct justifying the period of disqualification for unemployment benefit. These are quite separate questions based upon different criteria, the main difference being that in the case of unfair dismissal the emphasis is on the conduct of the employer, whereas with misconduct the main emphasis is upon the conduct of the claimant. There are therefore cases where a claimant succeeds before an employment tribunal on the unfair dismissal question, but the adjudication officer decides that disqualification should be imposed on the misconduct question. It is accepted case law in the United Kingdom that the decisions of the employment tribunals pre not binding on Social Security adjudication authorities or vice versa.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, would the hon. minister not agree that his
Unemployment Benefit — Disqualification Period — Question by Mr. Corrin T650 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 continuing reference to reciprocal agreement is not in any way infringed a reciprocal agreement if you provide something on this Island against the agreement in the United Kingdom that is better, and therefore why dbes he keep repeating as an excuse this reciprocal agreement? We know that we try and keep in step. We agree on that. But what is the bar that anything that is introduced across the water has to be on that basis?
The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the hon. minister also let us know whether persons who have not found permanent employment but have worked seasonally for three years are disqualified from receiving unemployment benefit under the provision of the Social Security Act?
Mr. Cretney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the hon. minister indicate whether it is the intention of his department to introduce at an early stage legislation covering unfair dismissal so that that aspect is covered in a better manner to the employees' side of it?
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, with regards to the reciprocal agreement I think that it is a policy of the Government to have reciprocal agreements for very good reasons, and they tie down much of our legislation. As I have said in this hon. Court previously, if this Government wishes to change that, then that is a matter to be debated on the floor of this hon. Court and all the consequences would have to be known and members would have to make a decision. There are good reasons for that where people are moving between the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom, otherwise it could have a detrimental effect (1) on people from the Isle of Man going to the United Kingdom who may wish to claim some form of benefit — and I know of many cases where that happens — or (2) on the financial consequences of Government where the reciprocal agreements, because of more people coming from the United Kingdom to the Isle of Man, actually mean we claim back many millions of pounds in money from the United Kingdom Government, so that has to be taken into account. We can, outside those reciprocal agreements, if we wish as a Government, without breaking them, set up anything we wish as we have done with the enhanced unemployment, but that has to mean a conscious decision by Tynwald to provide extra funds; it also means it could in some cases discriminate against people who have come here to work and who do not have, say, a residential qualification if that was built into it. That is something we would have to consider. So the reciprocal agreement is something we require and there is no doubt, as has happened, I suppose, since after the Second World War, the Isle of Man has based much of its social security legislation on the United Kingdom. Social legislation is something that is a different matter and, coming to the question the hon. member, Mr. Cretney, made, he asked about unfair dismissal legislation. As the hon. member may be aware, and if he is not, my department is looking at providing a Green Paper with regards to redundancy payments for the introducing of such legislation which can then be put out to the public to consider and representation to be made before we actually bring forward a Bill. May I say that that may very well need unfair dismissal legislation being incorporated. At this stage I am not sure of that. It is something we have touched on and it is something linked into possible redundancy payments, but again, with regards to this question, it shows
Unemployment Benefit — Disqualification Period — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T651 that the unfair dismissal aspect really does not affect the adjudication officer or the appeal tribunal, because that is a different question. I would just say that in answering the other part of the question, Your Excellency, the amount of people who are disqualified in total in the period for'the three months ending 31st December 1986, a total of 165 people were disqualified, but out of that the vast majority were between one and eight weeks, 87 were between one and four weeks, 55 were between a period of five and eight weeks and 23 between a period of nine and 13 weeks. So I again would emphasise that 13-week period is a maximum. It does not mean everybody gets disqualified for 13 weeks; it means within the 13 weeks there is a disqualification period. I hope that clarifies that. I would just ask if I may, Your Excellency, could Mr. Speaker just clarify again his point? I did not quite grasp what he said.
The Speaker: Yes, Your Excellency, I was asking whether persons who have not found permanent employment but have worked seasonally for three years are disqualified from receiving unemployment benefit under the provisions of the Social Security Act after those three years have elapsed?
Mr. Brown: I am not 100 per cent. sure of an answer, Your Excellency. I would just say what I am aware of is that if that was the case, that does not then mean that somebody has no money because they would then go on to supplementary benefit, so they are not without funds at all. So it is not as if the state is saying you are destitute because you cannot claim unemployment benefit. We have other areas we can help, and as long as they have the residential qualification, I think that would cover that. I will clarify it for Mr. Speaker, if he wishes, in a letter.
Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Your Excellency. It seems to me we are gradually becoming once again an Island of those who have and those who have not. Does the minister . . . can he answer me? The question is, when making his legislation, do they take on board the fact there is already hardship from the innocent parties, the wife and children, because of the six weeks they may have to do, no matter what reasons they have ceased to be unemployed, that 13 weeks could even increase that hardship on the innocent parties, which are the wife and children?
Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Will the minister agree with me that most of the questions this morning revolve round what is called the Fowler Report and that report was well-known to the last Government and that Government did not question the contents of that report?
Mr. Brown: Yes, Your Excellency. That is true, what the hon. member has just said and the Fowler Report, through its reciprocal agreement, it was well known, would have implications on the Isle of Man. As the hon. member says, nothing was made of it at the time and now, of course, we are in the process of introducing those legislative changes. Could I just say with regards to the hon. member, Mr. Kermode, he indicated there again because of disqualification somebody — the family, wife and children — would be destitute. That is not so, because a person can then claim supplementary benefit for his family and therefore, although his unemployment benefit is stopped,
Unemployment Benefit — Disqualification Period — Question by Mr. Corrin T652 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 he is able to claim supplementary benefit to help sustain his family — you know, to provide for his family.
The Speaker: A further supplementary, Your Excellency. On what date was the Fowler Report made available to hon. members?
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, could the hon. minister, when answering the question of Mr. Speaker, indicate that that report was made available as an appendix to the policy debate from the Board of Social Security last year, and can the minister indicate on memory, that is all, that the department at that time said that they would be looking to see to what extent those measures should be incorporated in the Isle of Man and that is why it has not been raised in this Court before today?
Mr. Delaney: A supplementary to the minister, Your Excellency. Would the minister also recollect that at the time that this member was on his feet he actually asked members of this hon. Court, including Mr. Speaker at that time, would he take a personal interest in looking at this report so he would understand the consequences of the report and on the people of this Island?
Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Your Excellency. In making the statement that the minister did, is he not aware that sometimes, even with the supplementary benefits, they are adequate for the needs of those families?
The Governor: Before I call on the minister to reply, and without wanting in any way to indicate that this is not an important subject — which it most certainly is — I must take the opportunity which comes from time to time to draw to hon. members' attention Standing Order 33, which clearly indicates that the proper object of a question shall be to obtain information on a matter of fact within the special cognisance of the person to whom the question is addressed. We must, hon. members, resist the temptation to enter into a debate. I call on the minister to reply.
Mr. Brown: Thank you, Your Excellency. If again I could answer Mr. Kermode, may I just say that we should not make it that the only responsibility lies on the state. A person has their own responsibilities to look after and we are talking about somebody who is not wishing to go for employment, somebody who is trying to avoid getting a job, and in those cases, if it is felt necessary, we have a machine to withdraw unemployment benefit. Now if the hon. member is saying that is unfair and therefore people, if they wish, should be allowed to stay on the unemployment list because they just do not want to work, well, that is something I am sure the hon. member would have move in this hon. Court so that a ruling could be made. But I think we have to be realistic. There is a responsibility on the family as much as there is on the state to do what it can to help. With regards to the review and the hon. member Mr. Cretney, as far as I remember — and I was not involved in the department, as he is aware, at that time, although I remember the point being affixed to the policy document — members were or should have been well aware that although it was stated, I believe, by the then chairman that they would review that agreement, it was well known, or should have been well known, to members that most of the points in that report were part of
Unemployment Benefit — Disqualification Period — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T653
the reciprocal agreement and therefore the consequences were well known although the actual outcome at the end of the day may well have been clouded a little bit knowing which way this Government was going, but to say at this stage we have gone too far, because in fact already changes have been made which affect that Fowler Report and it is a difficult one to cope with, but again we are tied in in many cases with the reciprocal agreement. If we wish to step outside that, that is a conscious decision this hon. Court can make, and if any member wishes to move a resolution in this hon. Court I will be delighted to hear their views on it and my department would well and truly take note of them, Your Excellency.
The Speaker: And the leadership of Government?
Mr. Brown: The leadership of Government is fine if you again accept the consequences that financially it may have great implications on the overall Budget of Government, and in my department's opinion, Your Excellency, we are quite satisfied that there is a need to follow most of these reciprocal agreements and they are laid down in the orders coming before this Court later, and there will be more further on. Again, the opportunity for the debate will be taken, I am sure, when I move that main order, Your Excellency. With regards to the honourable poirits that Mr. Delaney has stated, I just thank him for that support. He was aware of the situation and, as he has said, as far as I am aware that is the way the situation arose. I would just say there was a copy of the Fowler Report, as I remember, in the Members' Room for quite some time on the table and I am aware of certainly some members who were reading it.
ANIMAL WASTE BY-PRODUCTS PLANT - IMPLEMENTATION OF IMPROVEMENTS - DEPOSITION OF DEAD ANIMALS — QUESTION BY MR. BARTON
The Governor: Question number 18, hon. members. The hon. member for Middle, Mr. Barton.
Mr. Barton: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Local Government and Environment:
(I) Whereas dead cattle are from time to time left on the roadway outside the Animal Waste By-Products Plant instead of being placed inside the special container provided by your department —
(a) What power does your department have to prosecute offenders;
(b) how many prosecutions have been taken and with what results;
(c) what checks are made by the plant operators at weekends?
(2) What works and other measures of improvement have been implemented at the plant in 1987 and with what effect?
Animal Waste By-Products Plant — Implementation of Improvements - Deposition of Dead Animals — Question by Mr. Barton T654 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, it should be clearly understood that the dumping of carcases at the by-products plant outside normal working hours is not encouraged. The majority of fallen animals are either collected from farms by the plant operator or are delivered to the plant by the farmer during working hours. However, small numbers of animals, mainly sheep, are delivered to the plant when it is closed. They i are delivered at these times presumably by farmers for their own reasons, and 4 - elaborating on that, Your Excellency, as far as I am concerned the practice is horrifying in the extreme to actually carry dead animals and leave them outside r any Government undertaking which is supported by the taxpayer for the disposal of animals, and to put them there in the clandestine time of the evening probably, Your Excellency, is totally unacceptable and we will be taking steps in that direction. Because it is not possible to stop this practice, a container has been placed at the plant gate to receive carcases delivered outside of working hours. The plant gat6 itself is some 90 yards from the highway so the receipt facilities are located well away from the public highway. Unfortunately carcases brought to the plant when it is closed are not always placed in the container and they are sometimes left in front of the container or immediately in front of the plant gates. As regards the specific points in part (I) of the question, may I say that Section 9 of the Dogs Act 1908 makes it an offence for persons to leave the carcase of an animal unburied in any place to which dogs can gain access. Your Excellency, may I suggest that that Act, like many other Acts in this hon. Court, should be looked at very closely. The maximum fine is £100, as I have said, so it is not really a deterrent. No proceedings have been taken under the statute in relation to animals deposited by the by-products plant. I am assured that the plant operator visit the plant each Saturday and Sunday and removes to a more discreet location any carcase so illegally deposited which has been dumped and is visible from the highway. So far this year the plant operator has fitted to his equipment at his own expense a decanter centrifuge, which has significantly improved the effluent that is discharged to the river. If you remember, Your Excellency, and I cast members minds back, one of the first questions I faced or my colleagues faced was from the hon. member of Middle, Mr. Karran, in relation to this plant and at the time I made it clear I had not had the opportunity to visit this plant. Since that time my department and myself — on several occasions I have called there to see the operations down there. Your Excellency, I am concerned and I have been concerned, as I expressed on the original question from the senior member for Middle, but I can say this to this 0 hon. Court: as with so many other problems affecting this hon. Court, inherited problems in 99 per cent. of the cases which will get further into today, it is not the intention of this Government to overlook or run away from the problems we have collected and we intend, as we have done with the Litts, which is another problem we face, to try and clear those problems. I can give the assurance to the 6 hon. member that I am aware of all the difficulties down there. I am somewhat embarassed that it has been my department which has been responsible for some of the spillage into the river which we were prosecuted, as was highlighted in this •s Court, but I can only say my colleagues and myself will do our best to improve the whole situation and the lot of the people who live within that area. k The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. As Section 24 of the Dogs *6 Act, Your Excellency, puts an obligation on plant operators to collect fallen animals,
Animal Waste By-Products Plant — Implementation of Improvements - Deposition of Dead Animals — Question by Mr. Barton TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T655
will the hon. chairman indicate, who operates the plant and what obligation is there on that operator to collect fallen animals when notified by farmers?
Mr. Barton: Your Excellency, is it possible someone can be contacted in an emergency at a weekend?
, Mr. Karran: Can I ask a supplemenatary, Your Excellency? Can the hon. minister give us some sort of date when this problem will be resolved? Is he any Oearer to be able to say that 'we will have it sorted out within the next six months' .0.or something like this, as this problem has affected my constituents for a very long time?
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, if I could just ask a supplementary, would the hon. member not agree that the conditions down at that plant are far, far better than they have probably been for the last 50 or 60 years? And once again, as an example — and I am probably right on one hand — that when Government picks up the tab it does the job properly. I think the only thing that I find uncomfortable is that we are expected to do it yesterday and not to be given a reasonable amount of time. Could I also ask a supplementary referring to the responsibility to pick up animals and ask the member, is it not a fact that some animals are left on the doorstep of that plant because their owners would not like the authorities to have seen the condition they are in and where they come from?
Mr. Karran: A further supplementary, Your Excellency. If the Government was doing the job so right, why were they prosecuted in the first place?
The Governor: The minister to reply.
Mr. Delaney: I thank the Chief Minister, the ex-Chairman of the Local Government Board, for outlining, particularly to the agriculturists of this Court and for the Isle of Man in general, that the fault is not directly the fault of the Government. They can only spend the taxpayers' money where they think necessary and, as the Chief Minister has said, the improvements to those who know the area and I do know it from being a youth and actually hunting round that area — you gould not walk up there without a peg on your nose when I was a lad; now at least you can walk up there. I thank the Chief Minister for that encouragement and for clarifying. In relation to Mr. Speaker and the senior member for Middle and the youngest ,zrnember of this hon. Court, if you live long enough you might see the improvements, 1 the problem totally eradicated, but I cannot guarantee that. I can only act with my , colleagues to spend taxpayers' money to do the best on the job that is very difficult, to say the least. We have to have somewhere at this moment in time, and maybe modern technology will find some new method of getting rid of this particular r problem. I hope that will happen in your lifetime, certainly, in politics. Your Excellency, I can give some indication in relation to the last part of the . question. The construction of a building extension is scheduled to commence, and ' this is a small, modest construction to cover the operating area where the removal
Animal Waste By-Products Plant — Implementation of Improvements - Deposition of Dead Animals — Question by Mr. Barton T656 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 and the movement of these dead animals takes place, Your Excellency. No date has been fixed for the effluent treatment works modifications, but the department's consultant is preparing a specification. The building extension is estimated to cost £46,000 and the effluent treatment has been budgeted for for £45,000. So, Your Excellency, those members who wish to score a political point or two on a problem which over half this Government — this House certainly — had no say in but I have been sent here to try and cure, if you like, Your Excellency, we are spending a lot of taxpayers' money to try and resolve this problem and we will do best to do so, but I hope that this particular plant will not become an easy access to score political points off the Government. If you feel that way, Your Excellency, the answer is always open to hon. members: tackle the problems yourself by removing us and put someone else who they think can do the job better.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I have an answer to my question, please? Who operates the plant and what obligation is there on the operator to remove fallen animals when notified?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, the obligation on the part of the contractor that he entered into when in actual fact he took over the plant was that he would be prepared to uplift dead animals from places of notification. In actual fact he does that but, sir, it is totally wrong to say that somehow he should be stood by 24 hours a day because, let me say this, sir, I in actual fact, on a number of visits to this plant, quietly and discreetly, have gone down to see exactly what the problem is and I actually, unfortunately, five minutes too late witnessed an animal being dropped there at half past ten in the evening. Now, Your Excellency, you cannot expect to blame the operator to be on duty at that sort of time, but in actual fact the operator does carry out the contract which he entered into with the Governm'ent and it is at his own expenditure he has taken certain steps to clear up the effluent which has been discharged into the river. I congratulate him, sir, on trying to do a very difficult job in the circumstances which he too has inherited.
The Speaker: Who is the operator?
Mr. Delaney: A limited company, Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Who? Could I have the name, Your Excellency, of the limited company that operates the plant?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, Mr. Want is the contractor under a limited company name to this, it is not, I would have thought, the business of this Court to use the names —
The Speaker: No. It is not Government?
Mr. Delaney: No, it is not Government, Mr. Speaker, and I think you are well aware, Mr. Speaker, that it is not Government, and has not been, sir.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am not well aware of it because this state has
Animal Waste By-Products Plant — Implementation of Improvements - Deposition of Dead Animals — Question by Mr. Barton TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T657 not been conveyed to Government at any time of change of contract that I am aware of. Mr. Delaney: I think, Your Excellency, Mr. Speaker in the last Government - the debate ensued in this hon. House where the Chief Minister made it quite clear. In actual fact, sir, it was debated on several occasions when I voted against the money for the construction of this plant and the continuous carrying on of the procedure that was endorsed at that time, and I think Mr. Speaker was aware at that time. The Speaker: I am aware it was put out to tender. I was never aware of conclusions. The Governor: Mr. Karran, may I ask you, is your question in accordance with Standing Orders? Mr. Karran: I think so — (Laughter) Further to the hon. ministers' reply, can he tell us, were any minutes taken of his department's visit to this plant? When was the date of this meeting at the plant, allowing for the fact that at the sitting of 20th January of this hon. Court he did give an undertaking that he was going to allow hon. members that were not department members to have a look round the plant when he went? Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, the hon. member raised a question originally, I am sure he knows where the plant is and quite capable of driving his car to it. Your Excellency, I did give the undertaking to do that and if he would have contacted us and come to us we would have given —
Mr. Karran: I did, Your Excellency.
Mr. Delaney: I am sorry, Your Excellency, if he did it was not by phone. Your Excellency, we have an hour-and-a-half for lunch today; I would be delighted to take the hon. member. What worries me is about bringing him back! (Laughter)
Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Could I have a date for when the department had an official visit around that plant? My constituents have put up with this problem for many years and I want some sort of commitment from the new department. This is the whole idea of ministerial government.
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, we have visited on several occasions. I cannot recall the exact dates but if the hon. member wishes to go to the second floor of Government office he will find that my chief officer will give him all the dates of official visits and I, from my diary, if he so wants, will give him the other calls I have made on that plant.
DEVELOPMENT PLAN 1981 — REVIEW - QUESTION BY MRS. HANNAN
The Governor: I think it is time we moved on, hon. members. Question 19,
Development Plan 1981 — Review — Question by Mrs. Hannan T658 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 the hon. member for Peel, Mrs. Hannan.
Mrs. Hannan: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment —
With particular reference to retail trade and the utilisation of town and village centres, will your department consider reviewing, with a view to amendment, the Development Plan 1981?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am happy to answer the question in the affirmative and assure the Court that the comments made by the members last month during the debate on retail development and the town centre policy will be borne (3) in mind during the reviews.
Mrs. Hannan: May I ask a supplementary, Your Excellency? When the review of the Development Plan is underway, I wonder, would he give consideration to the inclusion of areas of ecological significance in the plan? And would he take notice of the comments made by the planning inspector regarding the top of Snaefell?
Mr. Delaney: A question, Your Excellency, with a sting in the tail, I am sure.Your Excellency, I will give the hon. member that assurance and take note — and note only — of the comments of the inspector.
RAMSEY SWIMMING POOL — CLOSURE - QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER
The Governor: Question 20. The hon. Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment —
In view of the concern in the north of the Island about the possible closure of the Ramsey swimming pool, will you state -
(a) what problems beset the pool at this time;
(b) who has assessed them; and
(c) what is being done to overcome them?
Mr. Delaney: I thank Mr. Speaker for giving me the early opportunity in this Court to debate to some extent, under Standing Orders, the problems of Ramsey swimming pool, Your Excellency. The immediate problem with the Ramsey swimming pool is the urgent need to refurbish the plant and equipment. In addition, if the plant is to be refurbished to give the pool a further period of useful life there are some structural repairs that must be done and the pool will need a general scheme
Ramsey Swimming Pool — Closure — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T659 of reinstatement. It is intended that the pool will close at the end of the coming summer and the period of closure wil be at least six months, this being the minimum time that it will take to deal with the matters I have described. Preliminary estimates of the cost of these works provided by the pool board's consultants suggest a total cost of approximately £470,000. My department is extremely concerned at the prospect of being faced with an expenditure of this order and we.are currently looking at various options, one of which is that the pool be closed indefinitely. No final decision has yet been made but the strategy will need to be determined by the department within the coming weeks in consultation with the Treasury and the pool board. The consultants advising the Northern Local Authority Swimming Pool Board are a team led by the Ramsey architects firm of J. G. Corlett and Partners.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, before taking the decision to close the pool indefinitely, will you have consultation with representatives of the northern authorities, with the members in respect of the areas? And also, Your Excellency, would you look at the assurances that were given to Government very recently that this building was in perfect order and that no future expenditure would be required in respect of it other than normal maintenance?
Mrs. Hannan: Could I ask a supplementary, Your Excellency? Is the minister aware that Peel is without a swimming pool and has been without a swimming pool for some time and I think, when money is to be spent, consideration should be given to areas which have not got a swimming pool — £470,000 would be very nice coming to Peel.
Mr. Delaney: Will you take a cheque?
Mrs. Hannan: Yes!
Mr. Bell: Just one question, a supplementary at this stage, Your Excellency. Would the hon. minister confirm to this Court that the works which are now being proposed are no surprise to the department at all, that especially in relation to the plant and equipment it has been envisaged for at least, I would think, three or four years so this plant has a limited lifetime, that in fact the consultants have been involved in this for that period of time with the idea of replacing the entire plant of the swimming pool? There is — would the hon. minister not agree? — money made available within the estimates for '87/88 put forward by the Northern Swimming Pool Committee for carrying out this work.
Mr. Delaney: Thank you, Your Excellency. I will just give some general background, I think, which is necessary now that the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Bell the senior member, has raised certain points in relation to the past policy of the past board of which he was a member and also a member of the Northern Swimming Pool Authority. The pool was constructed in the mid-1960's and a new roof was put on the main pool hall in 1978. The works now in prospect are additional to the works done ten years ago and are, as advised by the consultants, attributable to fair wear and tear
Ramsey Swimming Pool — Closure — Question by The Speaker T660 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 and general deterioration and obsolescence over the past 20 years. The consultants have produced a more limited scheme — and this is going to the hon. member's question — and estimate approximately £285,000 as an alternative to the larger scheme. The breakdown of the two estimates are quite clear and are available to members who wish to get them from my department. The pool has suffered from a lack of care and maintenance, Your Excellency. However, the consultants advise that this has not increased significantly the estimate. However, if some works had been dealt with over a period as a rolling programme, as referred to by the hon. member, the impact of the present works would not have been so great, so therefore, Your Excellency, I have no shame in standing up and saying that in actual fact a lot of this problem is a result of lack of maintenance on that pool, and that is a matter for the authority, the Northern Swimming Pool Board, who have actually been responsible for that particular matter. Apart from the physical problems with the pool there are problems with the staff which involve a lifeguard being suspended pending a medical, and the pool manager being given notice for the end of the summer subject to appeal. Now, Your Excellency, it was the ex-member of this particular board who is asking all the questions and therefore I feel that members of the Court should know this, sir. It is assumed that the question does not refer to this and it would be best if no reference were made in my notes, Your Excellency, but I believe the members of this Court on a serious problem of nearly £1/2 million worth of expenditure have every right to know what the problem has been with this pool and, Your Excellency, I think the members have a right to know that. I have made it quite clear. In relation to the question asked by Mrs. Hannan, I am sure tongue in cheek, that question, I believe personally that Ramsey, Peel and other major centres of the Isle of Man should have swimming pools, but the question comes down to: where does the money come from? And, as you are probably aware, we have put forward a scheme in conjunction with the Minister of Tourism for an aqua centre in Douglas on this occasion. Your Excellency, I believe the whole problem of pools in the Isle of Man needs looking at. I believe a whole policy should be constructed so we all know — at least this Government will know — where we are going to be in five years time as far as aqua and swimming facilities are concerned.
Mr. Quine: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the Chief Minster not agree that under the Local Government Acts 1960/1976, the Northern Local Authorities Swimming Pool Order1978, his department is required to have a member on the management committee of the swimming pool, and is it not a fact that at this point in time no member has been nominated to fill that position, and is this not indicative of the fact that in the view of his department he is already writing off this swimming pool?
Mr. Delaney: The hon. member for Ayre has asked a very pointed question, Your Excellency. May I remind the hon. member that on the last board, L.G.B., there were five members. This ministry now consists of three and also, Your Excellency, may I point out that it is the policy of this new ministry to let local authorities, where possible, get on with running their own communities. A criticism which was levelled at past Governments was that they would not allow local
Ramsey Swimming Pool — Closure — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T661 authorities to do their own thing and now we are being criticised for allowing them to do their own thing. As far as I am concerned, the present members, as I understand it, of the authority, are Mr. Beattie, the Ramsey representative, Mr. Corkill from Maughold, Mr. Kinrade from Jurby, Mr. Mayne from Bride, Mr. Quane from Lezayre, Mr. Quirk from Ballaugh, and Mr. Sayle from Andreas — well representative of the North. Why would they want at this moment in time a member of the Local Government and Ministry of the Environment on there? Surely those gentlemen are quite capable of running one swimming pool?
Mr. Quine: A supplementary, Your Excellency. I am afraid the hon. minister has either missed the point or avoided the point. Clause 6 of the order — and it is an order passed by this Court — requires the ministry to provide a member and he is not complying with the provisions of this order and this particular clause. What I am suggesting to him is that he has not done that because he has already taken a conscious decision that this swimming pool has no future as far as his department is concerned, and I think that is a very important matter.
Mr. Delaney: To challenge the member for Ayre is a bit difficult because I must make it clear then, Your Excellency, I have already approached . . . Just to clarify whether or not I have written it off, why then would I approach the Treasury to ask two things, Your Excellency? One is the possibility during the closure of this pool for refurbishment to keep Douglas Aquadrome open for next winter so that at least the people from Douglas up to the north of the Island would have somewhere to go to swim. That charge is not correct, sir and I think the hon. member was tongue in cheek in saying that. I have written off nothing. What I have to do with my colleagues is to make a logical and get a positive solution to this problem. As far as the representation is concerned, a number of appointments which we are obliged to take up we have not taken up until we have had a chance to put the policy clearly in our policy statement to Tynwald, Your Excellency, and if it is necessary for us to alter that order we will take the steps legally to do so.
LOCAL HOUSING AUTHORITIES - QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: Question 21, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin. .
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment —
(1) How many local authority houses are —
(a) under construction;
(b) due to be completed during the present financial year;
(c) undergoing major renovations by —
Local Housing Authorities — Question by Mr. Corrin T662 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
(i) your department
(ii) local commissioners other than Douglas Corporation;
(iii) Port St. Mary Comissioners?
(2) What procedure/methods does your department employ to ensure that local authorities carry out their statutory functions, especially in the foregoing areas?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, there are no local authority houses under construction at present. We are, however, proposing 41 new sheltered units in Ramsey in the coming year. It follows that there are none under construction; none will be completed during the financial year. Major renovations are underway in 34 of the department's own houses, in 30 local commissioners houses other than Douglas Corporation. None of these, unfortunately, Your Excellency are in Port St. Mary. Each of the eight local authorities on the Island which manage public authority houses are deemed to be responsible in their attitude to the provision of maintenance of houses. So far as new construction is concerned, the practice established by the Local Government Board is to review housing waiting lists on an annual basis and consider any proposals from the local authorities for new construction in the light of the waiting lists; the population and general supply of houses is a moving factor. The annual returns from local authorities will be considered by the department later this week, but as I and my colleagues have made clear, our emphasis is on new public authority construction and will be on sheltered housing. As regards refurbishment we encourage local authorities to modernise their older properties and a very considerable amount of modernisation programme has been underway over recent years. We have not pursued any particular authorities to insist on the implementation of modernisation schemes because financial restraints have meant that we have not been in a position to fund all the schemes that have been proposed voluntarily by the housing authorities. Refurbishment of the existing public authority houses will continue to be an important element of the department's housing policy over the next few years. Your Excellency, at an early stage my colleagues and I made it clear what our housing policy was hoped to be and we have made it quite clear that where we would wish, if the money was available, to build all sorts of public authority housing we see the practical problem of cash flow and cash to the Government, so what we have done, when we get to it, Your Excellency, is include in our estimates for this year a block of 41 sheltered units at Ramsey, much needed units at Ramsey, and we hope, sir, that the policy will be to relieve the larger units for the younger families — that is for the larger families to take up. We hope this policy over the duration of this Government will actually not only help the older person in their later years but will release many houses in the Isle of Man so that younger families can take benefit of the three and four-bedroomed houses.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, a supplementary, would the hon. minister not agree that from the day a new house is built the materials are deteriorating and
Local Housing Authorities — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T663
therefore a continuous rolling programme of refurbishment should be in progress by all local authorities and especially so when they are not engaged on building new houses where moneys surely should be available to keep, as I say, a rolling programme? And would the minister also not agree it is of little consequence, or indeed aid, to people in Port St. Mary to hear that there is a programme going on in Ramsey, admirable as that may be?
Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Can the hon. minister tell me: where is the Springfield Court site sheltered accommodation development? Is that next in line or is it as far as sheltered accommodation?
Mr. Delaney: Could the last questioner, Your Excellency, say where Springfield Court is? We have not got that on any of our programmes.
Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, the hon. member might need some clarification. Springfield Court sheltered accommodation in Second Avenue. I was led to believe, Your Excellency, at one time it was top of the list as far as the L.G.B., and I just wondered, when do the Ministry for Local Government and the Environment intend to go ahead with that scheme?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, may I say first of all to the hon. member Mr. Karran in relation to his information that if it was top of the list somebody has misinformed you. As far as I know, Your Excellency, Ramsey has been a priority, was of the last Government, and I inherited that particulr one, which I welcome. We have got a policy programme tentatively subject to cash coming to us from the Treasury over the next three years, and it further enhances the policy of this new Government of doing things positive. We have Ramsey first on the list; hopefully that will pass in our estimates. We have Onchan on the list after that and then we have Douglas on the list after that, all for sheltered accommocation. As well as that, on-going this year, is £100,000 in our estimates for the creation of certain units on a joint scheme with the private sector for the creation in the middle of the Island of housing units there. In relation to the original question and the supplementary, Your Excellency, of Mr. Corrin, all I can say is this, sir, that if we had the money we would like to refurbish every house in the Isle of Man because it is a principle my colleagues and I and, I hope, all members of this Court not only believe in the public sector of housing and we have a responsibility to make sure all dwellings in the Isle of Man reach certain standards, and it is our intention and the intention, I believe, of the last board of local government to spend money on refurbishment to a high standard of all local authority houses as well as Government houses. It is the duty of the • local authority who are responsible for their own houses to bring forward schemes and to look after the welfare of the tenants of the houses under their jurisdiction. We cannot make them do that unless it comes obvious to us they are incapable of • carrying out their responsibilities and I would suggest to the hon. member who I know is very interested in the welfare of people in local authority houses, particularly in his own constituency, he should pursue the matter through his commissioners, and if he gets no satisfaction there bring a complaint to my department and I am sure my colleagues and myself will pursue that complaint.
Local Housing Authorities — Question by Mr. Corrin T664 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Mr. Corrin: I thank the hon. minister for his reply, sir.
RADIATION LEVELS — MONITORING — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN
The Governor: Question 22. The hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran.
Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment —
How many staff are employed in monitoring radiation levels on the Island and have they the appropriate equipment to do so?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, there are no staff dedicated solely to the monitoring of radiation levels on the Island. There are, however, a number of staff who are involved as part of their normal work in this cast. Within the Government's Analyst's laboratory the analyst himself and his principal assistant do work in assessing background radiation levels and within the office of environmental health there are a number of officers who are continuing on a rota basis to monitor radiation levels in sheep. The department has appropriate equipment for undertaking the limited monitoring that it is presently undertaking. We have, however, received a report with recommendations on ways in which monitoring and analysing may be expanded. This would involve employing additional personnel and purchasing additional equipment. We are at present studying that report and if it is decided to extend what we are presently doing then additional resources will be needed. May I say, sir, also, as I would not like the hon. member to throw statements from me from past Hansards, I personally believe, as far as any effect that has been caused in the Isle of Man, on the background radiation or any effect, that money should be sought from other sources other than the Manx taxpayers and I believe that the people at Sellafield who keep telling us there is no problem to the Isle of Man should then put their money where the publicity is and pay for us to have equipment so we can monitor here and prove them either right or wrong.
Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Whilst this minister's statements are all well and good, what happens until this time allowing for the alleged fact that there has been an independent expert who is supposed to have made an assessment and said that the monitoring equipment for the Island is inadequate? Is this the case?
Mr. Delaney: Would the hon. member elaborate and name this person who I am supposed to know about?
Mr. Karran: Then I take it then the expert does not exist then and you are happy with the present situation as far as the monitoring and the staff employed for all this very important factor?
Radiation Levels — Monitoring — Question by Mr. Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T665
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I can only address the hon. member's supplementary question in a positive way. This Government and certainly the ministry for which I am responsible has no hesitation in giving an undertaking that we will do all in our power to safeguard the interests of the people of this Island against any effect from radiation, and the established policy of this Government, • sir, is the closure of Sellafield and I understand that would be the policy for any other place that affected the Manx people.
• Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. So, can I take it that the hon. minister is giving an assurance to this hon. Court that he is happy with the present situation as far as monitoring for radiation on this Island?
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am happy with the staff I have and the dedication they show, but I will never be satisfied with what we are doing in the Isle of Man until I am 100 per cent. certain that there is no effect from radiation on the people for which I am responsible but, Your Excellency, what I have said to the hon. member in my answer is, we need more funds if we are to get more equipment. If the hon. member is to pursue that aim he will understand, as he will in his own department of social security for which he is a junior minister, that it all comes down to what we can afford and would the priority be radiation monitoring or social security supplementary benefit for the people of the Island who much need this particular service?
RONALDSWAY AIRPORT — POLICING — QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: We press on to Question 23. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Highways, Ports and Properties —
(1) Have discussions taken place with a view to the policing of Ronaldsway Airport by the Isle of Man Constabulary?
(2) If so, who initiated these discussions and what was the outcome?
Mr. Catlin: Your Excellency, to answer the first part of the hon. member's question I can say quite categorically that the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties has had no discussions on the subject matters referred to therein. As my answer to the question posed in part (1) is in the negative the second part does not of course apply. However, I would amplify this reply and for the information of the hon. questioner, the acting secretary of the department has received a communication from the Department of the Home Affairs Board relating to the responsibility for the future policing not only of the airport but also the harbours. This correspondence has yet to be considered by the department.
Ronaldsway Airport — Policing — Question by Mr. Corrin T666 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Would the minister not agree that it is regrettable that members of the Isle of Man Constabulary should approach the airport police and say that they are — and I quote — 'going to take them over'? Is this not regrettable that employees should be treated in this manner wherever this proposal originated from? Would he not agree also that it would be perhaps • better . . . that the airport police are doing a good job and there is no call for them to be taken over?
Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, in reply to the hon. member, I can of course agree • with him fully that if what he tells me is true it is very regrettable. However, I, earlier today, spoke to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Board, and he assures me that the purpose of his department's letter was to see if a better co-operation (10 could exist between the two departments with regard to the policing of the airport and the harbour and to improve and have a better utilisation of the services which were available if that could be achieved. Now, the only way to find out the answer to that question is, in my opinion, for the two departments to hold discussions on the matter, and so far as I am concerned that is all there is on the table for discussion at the present time.
Mr. Lowey: Would the minister not agree, sir, that a confidential letter was sent to his department initiating discussions as outlined by you at officer level prior to the politicians meeting to discuss the matter? These are very initial discussions that were initiated by my department, and may I publicly acknowledge that if what the hon. member for Rushen has said in this Court about statements made by police officers, I too unreservedly apologise; it should not have happened because, as I say, we have started very much tentative negotiations and what will flow from those negotiations no one knows. They are very early, tentative negotiations, no more, no less and I will give an assurance that if the hon. member for Rushen wishes to see the letter that was sent under confidence to my hon. friend at the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties, he is very welcome to see it.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, would the minister tell me how confidential `confidential' is, please?
Mr. Catlin: Your Excellency, in answer to the hon. member of Council, Mr. Lowey, what he says is quite true and that is the letter does seek to have initial discussions at officer level, but before even those discussions can take place it would be appropriate for the members of my department to discuss the matter first and we have not even reached that stage. With regard to the letter itself, it is under confidential seal and I prefer to say no more, sir, at this time.
SHIPPING SAFETY LEGISLATION — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN
The Governor: We move on to Question 24. The hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran.
Shipping Safety Legislation — Question by Mr. Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T667
Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Highways, Ports and Properties —
Is your department satisfied that the present safety legislation concerning shipping is adequate for the Island?
Mr. Catlin: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. member for what I consider to be a very important question. My straightforward reply to the question is 'yes'. Over the last few years all the legislation which is necessary to implement the safety conventions of the International Maritime Organisation have been introduced and passed by Tynwald and are now in force, and enforced by the department's marine administration. They are identical to the regulations in force in the United Kingdom. It has been the policy of my department since the coming into force of the Registration Act of 1984 to visit every ship before its registration is accepted and to ensure that the ship has been constructed and maintained in accordance with those safety regulations. Whenever convention requirements have been modified and come into force internationally, amending regulations have been adopted in the Isle of Man to implement them. Our legislation covering merchant shipping safety is included in the statutes listed in Schedule 2 to the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties Order 1986 and these include, in particular, Acts which give effect to the International Conventions on Safety of Life at Sea and Load Lines, and of particular relevance are the following: the Merchant Shipping Passenger Ship Survey Act 1979 which requires passenger ships registered in the Isle of Man not to proceed to sea without a passenger ship certificate after annual survey; the Merchant Shipping Load Lines Act 1981, which requires ships registered in the Isle of Man not to proceed to sea unless they have been given a load line after stability tests and after survey; the Merchant Shipping Act 1985, which requires ships to comply with, amongst other things, rules relating to construction of passenger ships or of cargo ships as appropriate. Compliance is indicated by issue of Safety of Life at Sea Convention Certificates after• periodic surveys as required by the Safety of Life at Sea Convention. In addition, the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Registration Act 1985 are such that the department refuses to register ships which might not be up to safety standards mentioned at the time of registration. All ships coming onto the register are surveyed by our surveyors before acceptance. Detailed regulations specifying technical safety requirements are provided by means of orders under the Acts mentioned and all these have been approved by Tynwald in recent years. They are identical to those of the United Kingdom and implement provisions of the international conventions referred to. There is a constant review process and if, in the light of recent events, it becomes necessary for international or United Kingdom safety requirements to be tightened up, particularly in relation to watertight doors and ro-ro vehicle decks, then the department will adopt any such new provisions as soon as it possibly can. The department can give the hon. member and this hon. Court every assurance that, following the Zeebrugge disaster and as in the case with any major or significant shipping casualty, the marine surveyors will be liaisoned with the United Kingdom authorities and the shipping industry through existing channels of communication to ascertain what response would be appropriate by the marine administration, and
Shipping Safety Legislation — Question by Mr. Karran T668 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 if any action needs to be taken by the department to improve safety requirements or enforcement arrangements it will be taken immediately.
Mr. Karran: I thank the hon. member for his answer.
• The Speaker: Thank you, Your Excellency. How many ships are presently subject to Manx safety ship regulations?
Mr. Callin: On the register, Your Excellency, there are 77.
The Speaker: A supplementary, sir. Where are inspections carried out and how many staff do you have to carry out those inspections?
Mr. Callin: We have four surveyors, Your Excellency, and the inspections are carried out in various parts of the world.
The Speaker: Do you really feel that you have an effective force to carry out the enforcement of safety regulations with four inspectors carrying out inspections in all parts of the world on 77 vessels?
Mr. Callin: The answer to that question, Your Excellency, is that my department would be advised by the Chief Surveyor and any advice that he would give in that respect would be taken notice of without question.
Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Will the minister indicate that the payment for such inspection including the cost of travel of these officers to these places is paid for by the owners of these ships?
Mr. Callin: The cost of travel and the inspections, Your Excellency, is paid for by the owners of the ships.
CASINO — DELAY IN GRANTING NEW LICENCE - QUESTION BY MR. GILBEY
The Governor: We move on, hon. members, to Question 25. The hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask a member of the Gaming Control Commissioners —
Whereas the date of the ending of the present casino licence has been known for some 20 years and it was obvious that a lengthy period would be required to negotiate with applicants for a new licence so that —
(a) neither they nor the Government were put at a disadvantage by the deadline of the ending of the previous licence; and
Casino — Delay in Granting New Licence — Question by Mr. Gilbey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T669
(b) any new holder of the licence could be in a position to start operations, preferably permanent ones, immediately the previous licence ended.
(1) Why —
(a) was the Casino Act 1986 only passed on 15th April 1986, under a year before the then existing licence ended; and
(b) is the previous licence on the point of ending before a new one is granted so that there is likely to be a material gap between the ending of the operations of the previous licence and the start of the operations of the new licence?
(2) Who is mainly responsible for this avoidable and unfortunate situation?
Mrs. Delaney: Your Excellency, on behalf of the membership of the Gaming Commission who do not have the same privilege as the hon. member who tabled the question, I feel, as your appointee, sir, to that board, however recent that appointment was, that I must use the privilege of this House to speak on their behalf and to give a potted history of all of the events. The Gaming Commission have acted with propriety in all matters and have been scrupulous in their negotiations. Who is responsible for the present situation? the questioner asks. You, sir, as part of the previous administration — collective responsibility. In more definitive terms of blame, initially the previous executive Government and, latterly, the legislative Government. In 1981 a confidential report from the Gaming Board to the Executive Council with recommendations went forward. I will highlight only those salient questions that were recommended within that report, Your Excellency: (1) Legalised casino gambling should continue after 1987; (2) a licence of ten-year concession rather than a 20-year; and (3), which is a very important one in view of the controversy at the moment, Your Excellency, a policy decision from that Executive Council on casino gambling after 1987 was urgently recommended so as to enable applications for new concessions to be invited by the 1st January 1984 — 1984, hon. colleagues. The Gaming Board have always recognised the need for time for such a commitment with the financial implication that it implies. Regular correspondence from the Gaming Board to the executive at that time ensued, expressing concern over delay of the Bill. On November 16th 1983 a resolution was moved and adopted in Tynwald that provision for further enabling legislation be introduced. The Bill had its second reading in the House of Keys on 26th February 1985. At this point I would remind the hon. member for Glenfaba of a pertinent point he raised during this debate — and I quote 'Firstly it is a fact that it provides a nett income of well over £100,000 - I think nearer £140,000 — to this Government and we need every penny we can raise'. That is a very pertinent account, ladies and gentlemen, when one considers what the Gaming Commission were asked to consider for the new concession, and this quote can be found in the Hansard K726. The third reading of the Casino Bill was on March 26th 1985 at the House of Keys level. It was then introduced to the Legislative Council and the second reading
Casino — Delay in Granting New Licence — Question by Mr. Gilbey T670 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 was on April 23rd 1985, when Mr. Lowey moved that Clause 5 and subsequent clauses be moved to a committee. This was seconded by the hon. member Mrs. Betty Hanson. Members of the committee were: the hon. Mr. President, Mr. Lowey and Mrs. Hanson. The committee reported back to the Legislative Council on December 10th 1985, eight months later, where the Bill with further amendments was passed. Royal Assent was given in April 1986. At this point I would again remind the hon. House that the Gaming Board had urgently recommended that applications be invited for the 1987 concession as early as January 1st 1984. Advertisements were placed in the local and United Kingdom press on May 9th 1986, applicants to reply on or before June 30th 1986. There followed meetings with the applicants. Although the Palace was one of those applicants and they were invited to attend a meeting, they did not turn up for that meeting. Fears were expressed last autumn that there would be not enough time for a full licence to be issued. The Palace, I understand, made an offer for a temporary licence. That offer was £25,000 per annum with reduced controls. This was later increased to £50,000 and was considered inadequate by the Gaming Board and endorsed by the then executive committee. There were further delays with a general election and the appointment of a new chairman to the Gaming Board. The remaining details have been made available to the hon. members of this House and will also be available, I understand, to the Press and media later on, but I would point out finally that the Gaming Commission was set up by the past administration. They were given the task by the past administration but when they came back with their well thought through deliberations in line with the guidelines laid down by the present executive Government through the Economic Adviser — and I will further point out that the Director of Tourism was at every meeting I was present at and before my appointment, I understand, so the Gaming Commission did not sit in their ivory tower, separate from the Government and the people; there was full liaisoning with the Chief Minister, the Treasury and the Tourist Board. And I would ask a final question — does this House find acceptable that a reduction to a quarter of the previous income be committed for the next ten years? Does the Minister of Treasury find it acceptable? The royalties at the end of 1987 were £184,000 plus a licence fee of £12,000, and this was in line with the arrangements of the previous concession. The average over the last five years per annum has been in royalties £187,000.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. lady for her reply and realise it is difficult for her not having been on the previous board, but could I ask her some supplementaries? The first is: she did quote what I said in the House of Keys, but would she not also agree that she has only taken one part of what I said? I said that the licence fees were important but I also said the provision of a casino for tourism was important and I also said that the jobs of the people working in the casino were important. I actually said, is it not true that but for these three factors, if we were starting anew, I would not be recommending a licence at all? So perhaps she would confirm that she has only taken one part of what I said. She has referred to the delays between the request for legislation and an order being brought to this Court for legislation, then the delay between that order and the Bill coming forward and then the delay while it went to a committee. Could she tell us what representations her predecessor board made to Executive Council
Casino — Delay in Granting New Licence — Question by Mr. Gilbey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T671
to try and get this process speeded up as these delays occurred and what Executive Council replied or did?
Mrs. Delaney: The hon. member — yes, indeed, and I would accept . . . As I say, I only referred to the salient points, Your Excellency, with regard to funding because I felt it was very pertinent to the guidelines that were given to the Gaming Commission. Yes, the hon. member was concerned about a casino; indeed, he would not have voted but for the tourist input and also he felt that once it was here it should go on. May I also say, as I did imply before, that we had the full support of the Tourist Board in the latter negotiations. I was appointed on 23rd January of this year, and at each meeting that I was present at, the Director of Tourism was there on behalf of his ministry with full support of everything that was put forward, and this point was very much in the minds, but if you look back at the concessionaire Hamblins, who had been recommended, were coming forward with far more employment at the end of the day than was envisaged and that is at present at the Palace, inasmuch that they were going to have it refurbished because this is part and parcel of the agreement, as I understand, within the confines of the Bill that the coming forward of either a refurbished or a major new hotel at a five-star level would have enhanced the tourist industry and would most certainly have enhanced the situation with regard to the workforce. I, in my capacity as Chairman of the Work Permits Committee, whilst sitting on the Gaming Board and interviewing the Vice-Chairman of Hamblin's asked that should they be successful in gaining the concession they would seek continuity of employment for those people that could be seen to be unemployed through the cessation of the licence at the Palace, and they assured me that this would be so; they would have an interim period where they would retrain the staff and also staff that had either left or been dismissed by the Palace previously. I asked for an assurance on that and I received one. Furthermore, as I understand, the senior members of the Palace had approached the vice-chairman, he informed us at this meeting, with a view to being interviewed should they be successful, which I feel is quite in order. Each person is quite entitled to look after their own affairs and with commitments that everybody has it was the natural phenomena and I see nothing wrong in that. I hope I have answered.
Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Your Excellency. The hon. member did say that she discussed the situation of employment within the company. Can I ask, when discussing the employment of staff, were the wages and conditions also talked about at this meeting. Were they prepared the same, or were they the same conditions that might not have been acceptable to the staff?
Mrs. Delaney: Your Excellency, no, it was not an employment debate that we were ensuing, it was the concession, it had not been granted and it would have been improper for me, but it was felt and expressed. On the understanding from the . Secretary of the Gaming Board I knew that the employment facilities they had in Britain were extremely good, but I would have indeed at a later date gone on to make quite sure if that were necessary. But I do not know why such concern is expressed. There seemed to be a general concern within the Hamblin group when we spoke with them that they should wish to go along the lines as laid down by
Casino — Delay in Granting New Licence — Question by Mr. Gilbey T672 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 this Government and indeed by the gaming concession. They are involved with the British gaming concession because of their involvement in Britain in casinos — they have four, as I understand. They came highly recommended from the Casino Gaming Board in Britain because our Gaming Commission have close liaison with them, and naturally this was all checked, of course, as part and parcel of the procedure before any acceptance or recommendation, indeed, was made. So because of its recommendations, I naturally assume that I must take responsibility. No, I did not ask because I assumed, having gone this far, they would most certainly adhere to the minimum amount, to say the least of it.
The President of the Council: Your Excellency, could I ask the hon. member, is it not true that this Court knew very little about the negotiations that were going on apart from what we were hearing daily, almost hourly, on Manx Radio? Much information was given to Manx Radio. I am not suggesting that the Gaming Control Commission should give that information; they have evidently given it to the Chief Minister and the Chief Minister in turn has given it to Manx Radio, but certainly this Court has been accused, in my view quite wrongly, of doing nothing about a situation which they were told very little about. Is it not true, therefore, that this Court was unaware until the last hour — 7.30 last night I got the information, some others may have got it a little earlier, some may have got it later, and I think the Court could rightly complain that, between the Chief Minister and his council and the Gaming Board of Control, Tynwald generally knew little or nothing about it?
The Governor: I have caught several eyes and before inviting those questioners to state their questions, I would like to say something which the Court may not yet be aware of, which is that I have already given authority for the Chief Minister to make a statement on the casino which will come immediately between Question Time and the reversion to the main Agenda. Mr. Maddrell, followed by Mr. Delaney.
Mr. Maddrell: No, sir, I was not wanting to speak. I thought that the last speaker should have asked a question instead of making a statement. We are not here to make speeches at Question Time.
Mr. Delaney: Speaking for those members of the Court in asking a question and those members who do not wish to avoid their responsibility, Your Excellency, could your nominee, the member for North Douglas, indicate to this hon. Court that it is not the policy or not the jurisdiction of the Gaming Board of Control to enter into political discussions or to make public information which is given to them by private people in private business dealing with their successful or unsuccessful applications for licences to the Gaming Board of Control?
The Governor: Does any other hon. member wish to ask a question of our nominee? You may answer.
Mrs. Delaney: To reply to the hon. Mr. President, there was full consultation, and an information leaflet of details was distributed only last week to all members of the legislature. It is, as the hon. member for East Douglas has said, quite right that the Gaming Commission was not in a position and would never even have
Casino — Delay in Granting New Licence — Question by Mr. Gilbey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T673 considered the imposition of having to reply to the many charges and allegations that were levelled at the Gaming Commission during the run-up to this hearing today, but I felt very strongly that, as the only spokesperson within this council, I have a right to speak out on their behalf. They are people of very high integrity, selected by you, the members — the past members, albeit, in the majority — but nonetheless they are very capable, responsible people, have negotiated with propriety and I would refute the suggestion that was made on Manx Radio this morning that they were not the people to properly negotiate. It was legislated for here in this hon. Court in the last administration, and if this administration now feels they made a mistake then legislation must now be put forward to remove it, but I would remind this Court that this legislation still remains. It is still the remit of the commission and I have the fullest confidence in them.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, if I may just ask a supplementary referring to the last point made by the hon. member who has just resumed her seat — again I stand to be corrected, but I think Executive Council in fact asked the Gaming Board of Control to negotiate on its behalf. It is certainly the Gaming Board of Control's remit on directions of Executive Council, approved by this Court, to give a licence. If she was referring to the situation where I said I did not believe that the Gaming Board of Control was the one to negotiate for a licence, would she not agree that the point I made was that it put the Gaming Board of Control in an invidious position, being the police authority on one hand and being asked to negotiate on the other and I was in fact not undermining their credibility as a policing body.
Mrs. Delaney: I do agree with the Chief Minister, yes, they were there and indeed I did not take offence. I perhaps have not said it quite well and you must forgive me — perhaps it is my newness within this hon. Court. Yes, of course, but what I was clearly trying to clarify was that the previous administration had said in 1985 that the commission must be outside the political arena, and until that duty has been discharged by perhaps amending legislation within this hon. Court as there appears to be an indication for that, this is the commission's responsibility. I was not challenging whether it was correct or not.
POLICE FORCE - RECRUITMENT OF AUXILIARY OFFICERS - QUESTION BY MR. CORRIN
The Governor: Question 26. I call on the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin.
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:
(1) Does your department share the concern of the public that in recent years a deterioration in the upholding of the law and public behaviour has occurred?
Police Force — Recruitment of Auxiliary Officers — Question by Mr. Corrin T674 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARC!-!, 1987
(2) Has not the rule of law, as represented by a high police profile within the community, suffered due to an understrength police force?
(3) In terms of maximum utilisation of resources, i.e. the highly educated, trained and, rightly so, well paid professional policeman being correctly employed, will your department consider the recruitment of a number of full-time auxiliary officers, locally trained, to perform basic routine duties under the leadership and direction of the professional force?
Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, could I, before answering the question, congratulate the hon. member on the excellent meeting that he convened in Rushen with the Chief Constable and, as a result of that, the series of questions which I am sure has done a great service to the Island, to the police in particular, and to my department. So down to the question, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin, for his questions. In reply to part (1), yes, there must always be concern if it is thought that there is a deterioration in the upholding of law and, as a result, a worsening in public behaviour. That there is a continuing upward trend of crime is not in dispute, although at this stage the Chief Constable and the department do not see it as alarming. We are certainly not — I repeat, not -- complacent. While I do not have the Chief Constable's Annual Report for 1986 — it is at the printer's — I understand that there was a slight increase in some crimes in 1986 and this confirms this gradual trend upwards which is regrettable. We have a police force which is closely involved with the community and the improvements and strengthening of that policy announced by the Chief Constable in January hopefully will further improve the already excellent co-operation the force receives from the general public. Part (2). The optimum number of police for the Island was urged in a report in 1980, and I have already said we have had a gradual increase in crime almost every year since. The police force is understrength, if I take the 1980 report, by four sergeants, 21 constables and five civilians, and indeed the Budget Estimates, which we will discuss later, were argued by the department and, I may say this to this Court, argued quite ferociously on this basis. I regret we have been unable to achieve the full increase in one year but I do believe that the Treasury members and minister have acknowledged the special and vital role and importance of maintaining our reputation for upholding law and order in whatever guise it may come, and that is why they have given us moneys to provide one third of that increase required and an assurance that in the next two years at least, no longer than two years, they will certainly do . . . and if the economy picks up, they will do their utmost to see that we get positive discrimination in our way. The Chief Constable is as anxious as my colleagues in the department to make up the deficiency as defined in that 1980 report, and we feel that there is still more ground to be made up from his own assessment since he arrived last year. We have started a review of certain police duties that could be civilianised and other areas where perhaps — and I stress perhaps — and it has been touched on in a previous question, we could amalgamate to provide a more effective and better service to the general public in policing. So yet again, without being complacent, we feel that the rule of law is not seriously suffering, just that much, much more could be done with a full strength force.
Police Force — Recruitment of Auxiliary Officers — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T675
In reply to part (3) of the question, I repeat, our number one priority as a department and from the Chief Constable is to reach the proposed 1980 establishment requirement of full-time officers and, in addition, hon. members will again recall that there is already an active recruiting drive to bring up the special constabulary to that establishment's recommended strength of 100. And again, for the record, we are broaching new ground, we are recruiting ladies into the specials as we feel that they have an active part to play in the special police force and in the community. Hon. members, my department shares the overwhelming desire of most of you to see more police out and about in the community that they serve. The ideal - the performance of basis routine duties, the 'bread and butter' of policing, keeping officers in contact with members of the public in a non-confrontational, non-crisis situation — that is our aim, and again — the Chief Constable has spelt this out earlier this year in January and given the policy of the police for the forthcoming year. I expanded upon it at Rushen at this particular public meeting that I referred to. But if the hon. member in his last part of the question is referring to other full- time auxiliary officers other than the specials, then I am afraid, sir, we do not have any plans, neither have we formulated any plans for the foreseeable future in that area, but we do want to stress that we feel that the special police force, the special constabulary have an important part to play, a growing part to play, under the control and direction of the full-time professional police.
The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the hon. minister recognise that the Treasury estimate is indeed accurate in respect of recruitment, bearing in mind the fact that when on an earlier occasion police numbers had to be boosted practically overnight it proved disastrous to the Isle of Man as the incoming members of the force had no knowledge whatever of Manx conditions and simply did not fit in?
Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, would not the hon. member agree that, besides being an understrength police force, part of the lack of effectiveness is due to having to take on duties which are not probably compatible to their responsibilities, and will he give his attention to that situation and try to identify those areas and bring forward some solution to that problem as soon as possible?
Mr. Corrin: Your Excellency, I refer to the third part of the question — the full-time auxiliary officers. Would the minister not agree that the recruitment of officers as I have described would be admirable to fit in with the duties as suggested by the member of Council?
Mr. Lowey: Yes, sir, could I take Mr. Corrin's part last? The specific question was: at this time do we have any plans to introduce full-time auxiliary officers under the control . . .? and in an ideal world, yes, sir, that would be the answer, but I think what we are dealing with at this moment in time is priorities. We have a priority to get our full-time police up-to-date, combined with the proven record of the special constabulary, and we are making positive steps along there. There are other areas of policing, in reply to my hon. friend, Mr. Quirk, that could be done; what I would call — and dare I use the word? I do not wish to disturb
Police Force — Recruitment of Auxiliary Officers — Question by Mr. Corrin T676 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 this Court at this stage of the game regarding traffic duties — traffic wardens and the like which really highly trained professional policemen who should be combatting — can I dare say it? — real crime, are being side-tracked into that sort of area — an increasing important part to keep the flow of traffic going is very important. So I would suggest that at this moment in time we have not got that position under active consideration. We do have a strategy and plan for the next two years which I think we have to concentrate on, but I take note of what he says and I will obviously bring it to the attention — I am sure the Chief Constable will listen with intent to what has been said in this Court today and if there are any improvements that can effectively be used then I am quite sure we will not shut our eyes to it. But at this moment in time our priority is to get the police force up to date in numerical terms. We are actively pursuing the specials and their role within policing in then Island, and to that extent I think we have a policy that will bring us effective policing and it will be seen by the general public to reassure them that their front-line troops are actually serving the community because they are part of the community, and I agree with the hon. member in his sentiments that there is a genuine concern abroad that we require to keep our defences against lawlessness at an optimum. I agree with him on that. Can I come to Mr. Speaker? I agree with Mr. Speaker where in the past we did as a matter of expediency import a lot of people, and the desired result was a tragedy for all concerned. I think we have learnt lessons but we do need to keep in mind always we need experience. There was another criticism of our police not so long ago that we had a very, very young police force. With the greatest will in the world you cannot get experience; you cannot put old heads on young shoulders too. So we have to strike a balance between what I call experienced policeman and a younger element that can do everything more active, do more positive things in a physical sense that is required from time to time from the police force. So I would agree with Mr. Speaker when he says that the Treasury, perhaps, was correct in phasing this area over. I have no criticism to make of the Treasury other than we would, in an ideal world — and I know the Treasury too would have liked this year to have given us the full amount to meet our immediate plans. I am happy to accept — not happy but I accept — the phased programme offered by the Treasury and we will put that money to good use in producing as many experienced policemen on the beat as quickly as we can.
Mr. Quine: Your Excellency, could the hon. minister confirm that due attention is being paid to the introduction or the streamlining of procedures and also to selective enforcement procedures which of course all have a bearing on manpower?
The Governor: Could I point out, Mr. Lowey, we have got just five minutes and one more question to go.
Mr. Lowey: I will be very brief, sir. I am very pleased to be able to confirm to my hon. friend from Ayre that that procedure and the jobs that the police are doing at the moment are actually being reviewed both within the police itself and their external duties, and there is no area that is being left. All areas are being pursued.
Police Force — Recruitment of Auxiliary Officers — Question by Mr. Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T677
SUMMERLAND - APPOINTMENT OF GENERAL MANAGER - QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY
The Governor: Question 27. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr. Cretney.
Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Minister for Tourism and Transport:
(1) Has the position of general manager for Summerland been advertised and, if so, where and when and, if not, why not?
(2) Has a general manager been appointed?
(3) If so —
(a) when and by whom;
(b) has he been granted a work permit;
(c) what are the qualifications, terms, salary etc. of the post?
(4) Is the general manager of Summerland to be the designated official of the building, and will he have the responsibility of employing the staff required?
(5) Will the general manager occupy the Aquadrome flat? If so, will a rent be paid or will this be in addition to the salary he will receive for the post?
Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I am somewhat surprised at the hon. member's question as my junior minister, the hon. member for North Douglas, made the position in regard to this appointment very clear in public statements at the time of last month's sitting. In moving the resolution last month for the taking over of Summerland by my department, my colleague made it clear that my department's immediate concern was that as much of the Summerland complex should be open in time for Easter and that the full complex should be open in time for the summer season. Summerland remains the only major indoor family leisure facility in Douglas and it is vital, therefore, both for the tourist industry and for local residents that it be re-opened as soon as possible. It was soon clear to my department that, if there was to be any chance at all of getting the complex open in time for the season, it would be necessary to immediately appoint an experienced manager familiar with the Summerland building so that an assessment of the current state of the building could be made, other staff hired, equipment purchased and essential repairs undertaken. I think most hon. members can probably imagine the difficulties we currently face in trying to get this building open again, but if I mention, for example, that we received a report last week from the Environmental Health Department listing
Summerland — Appointment of General Manager — Question by Mr. Cretney T678 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 some 90 items requiring attention in that respect alone, hon. members will begin to appreciate the scale of the problem we are facing in my department. It would have been impossible to even consider getting the building open in time for the season if, as a first step, the department had to advertise for a general manager, allow time for the submission of applications, arrange interviews, make an appointment and then allow that person to give a period of notice to his present employer. Fortunately the department had available to it the services of a former general manager of the complex during the time it was operated by Trust House Forte, and because of the urgent need to have a general manager at the complex it was decided not to advertise the post immediately but to appoint that gentleman on a short-term contract basis to get the complex open again and operating. Meanwhile the permanent post will be advertised in due course and with adequate time for considering and interviewing applicants, for a period of notice and for a reasonable handover period if that is required. My department has, therefore, appointed Mr. Charles Kane as general manager of the Summerland complex with effect from 1st March 1987. Since not unfairly he required any contract to offer him a reasonable period of employment, his appointment is for a period of 12 months to the end of February 1988. He does require a work permit and this has been granted for the period of that contract. Your Excellency, I am reluctant to reveal in public the precise terms and conditions of employment of any individual member of my staff, but I have arranged for copies of the terms and conditions of Mr. Kane's employment be circulated to members for information, and I believe members do have copies of the terms of employment with them at this moment. I would stress that overall these terms reflect the fact that this is a temporary contract of employment and that all the terms necessarily take account of the fact that the contract is of limited duration and the post is non- pensionable. It should not be assumed that these are the terms on which a permanent appointment will be offered. The question of the Aquadrome flat is dealt with in the terms and conditions. Application has been made to the Licensing Court for Mr. Kane to become the designated official of the complex. He will have the responsibility for employing staff within a staffing establishment and budget agreed by the department. Your Excellency, my department appreciates that this is an unusual step to make a temporary appointment of a non-Isle of Man worker to a post which has not been advertised. I hope, however, that hon. members will appreciate the urgent need and peculiar circumstances which have led us to take that step. I am sure that hon. members also appreciate that the temporary appointment of a manager at this early stage will enable us not only to try and get the complex open as soon as possible, but also to offer locally and immediately a number of other employment vacancies at Summerland so that overall the effect will be to create additional local employment opportunities in the catering and leisure field.
Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Your Excellency. While I accept the dilemma the department had in having to employ this manager at such short notice and I accept they had good reason, can this hon. Court be given the assurance that, if we are to employ an assistant manager in the Summerland complex, this job will be advertised and given to suitable persons who are fully conversant with the tourist industry in the Isle of Man?
Summerland — Appointment of General Manager — Question by Mr. Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T679
The Speaker: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Affording action instead of procrastination, can you explain to the House how a building which has been operational up until recent months has so many deficiencies when subjected to inspection by the Environmental Health Inspectors?
Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Congratulating the Minister of Tourism on the efforts he has made to carry out Government policy which is to re-open Summerland, would he not indicate to this hon. Court that the gentleman he has referred to as being given this temporary position as manager was also the manager when this particular building made a profit for its lessees? And would he not also indicate that it is the intention to have it open for the Easter period on the arrival of the first tourists to the Isle of Man?
Mr. Bell: Certainly, Your Excellency, all other positions which will be filled at the Summerland complex at all levels will be advertised locally, and it is certainly my sincere desire to make sure that all those jobs go to local people where appropriate. As to Mr. Speaker's question about how these problems can arise within the building, I honestly cannot say at this stage, Mr. Speaker. We have had obviously no control over it up until a matter of two or three weeks ago; what has gone on before our assumption of responsibility I honestly cannot say at this stage. My only hope is that we can remedy these problems very, very quickly and that we will not be in a position of facing this difficulty again in the future. The hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney — yes, without going into too great detail, Mr. Kane was in fact general manager of the Summerland complex, I think for a period of about three-and-a-half years, during which time the Summerland complex was in profit under the control of Trust House Forte, I believe. It is our sincere hope we will get back to that situation.
CASINO LICENCE — STATEMENT BY THE CHIEF MINISTER
The Governor: Hon. members, that brings us to the end of question time. Our Chief Minister has asked and I have willingly granted him authority to make a statement at this stage in the Agenda. He is engaged himself in lunchtime meetings and it would be extremely helpful to him if he could make his statement before we break for lunch, though he will take unhurriedly questions from the Court after lunch. I have given him authority, therefore, to make his statement now.
Mr. Walker: Thank you, Your Excellency. It is not a very long statement but I would like to reiterate for the benefit of hon. members the statement I made yesterday to the public by way of Manx Radio and to the Isle of Man Courier. Hon. members will have received my letter of yesterday's date setting out the position we have now arrived at. Just to recap, I withdrew my resolution from today's sitting because Hamblins First Leisure have withdrawn its application for a temporary licence to operate a casino in the Sefton Hotel, a decision apparently taken by that company following a thorough review of all factors affecting the operation of a casino in the Isle of
Casino Licence — Statement by The Chief Minister T680 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Man. As I have said previously, I very much regret that decision on Hamblins part but have to accept the company's right to take that action. The original decision of Executive Council to support Hamblins was made bearing in mind the relative benefits to the Isle of Man of the proposals put to the Gaming Control Commissioners by Hamblins and those of the Palace Company. I also said yesterday that the offer made by the Palace Company of £50,000 annual licence fee over a ten-year period remains unacceptable, bearing in mind that the annual cost to Government of the gaming inspectorate almost equates with the licence fee that was offered. In my Press release I have attempted to keep the public informed and was not questioning the integrity of the companies involved. Executive Council has appointed a committee to re-assess the situation and to deal with any fresh developments expeditiously. This committee met yesterday afternoon and have this morning had an initial meeting with representatives of the Palace Group. Could I just conclude, Your Excellency, by stating that I hope an application can be negotiated which I can recommend to this hon. Court. I can also assure hon. members that discussions are continuing in a positive manner and with good faith on both sides. I think the outcome of the negotiations has to be awaited and will have to be considered by Executive Council and we will take an opportunity for that if we have something concrete on the table in front of us. Thank you, sir.
The Governor: Thank you, Chief Minister. Hon. members, there will be an opportunity for questions on that statement after lunch. The hon. Court will now adjourn until 2.35 p.m.
The Court adjourned at 12.58 p.m.
CASINO LICENCE STATEMENT — QUESTIONS TO THE CHIEF MINISTER
The Governor: Has any hon. member a question of the Chief Minister?
Mr. Gilbey: Yes, Your Excellency, I would like to ask, in view of the very serious position regarding the staff involved, some of whom may be but of work this week, how quickly does the Chief Minister think this position can be—resolved?
The Governor: Are there any other questions?
Mr. Walker: Thank you, Your Excellency, I would just repeat really what I said before lunch, that the three members of Executive Council who were appointed to re-assess the situation did meet with representatives of the Palace Group before we came into Tynwald this morning. We have had an opportunity over lunch to assess the proposals. Later on this afternoon I would expect the members to talk with the Gaming Commissioners as soon as an opportunity can be found. I am going to ask Executive Council if they could meet this evening to have a look at the proposals in principle that are in front of us now, to see if Executive Council can support those. If there is a way forward that we can support, then it may be
Casino Licence Statement — Questions to The Chief Minister TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T681 possible under a Supplementary Agenda to introduce the directions and licence tomorrow. We have addressed enquiries this afternoon as to the difficulties in the presentation of a direction and licence. I do not know if there are any legal problems. As I say, the matter is being considered as a matter of urgency, but again I would stress that we have to arrive at a situation where we have proposals that I personally feel that I can recommend to Tynwald after the support of Executive Council. Executive Council will meet this evening to discuss those proposals in principle, and I would suggest to hon. members that that is the way forward.
Mr. Delaney: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary? I am most grateful to the Chief Minister for his most helpful reply, but in view of the obvious concern of many people about it would he be prepared to brief this hon. Court on the position, say, at this time tomorrow? And I think many of us then would be satisfied to wait until then to see what might be forthcoming at that stage.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, as I say, I will ask Executive Council members if we can meet this evening when Tynwald has finished and I will certainly give the assurance that I will indicate to hon. members tomorrow the outcome of that meeting with Executive Council, but I cannot go any further than that at this stage.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I wonder if the Chief Minister could help me. As the whole thing unravels, as I understand it, responsibility rests with the Gaming Board of Control for putting forward proposals in respect of the licence. Who in fact is negotiating as of now? Whose responsibility is it?
Mr. Walker: It is the responsibility of Executive Council and I look to the A-G for confirmation of this but, as I understand it, it is Executive Council who are responsible. As I said earlier on, the last Executive Council delegated that responsibility or the responsibility for negotiations to the Gaming Board of Control who then reported back to Executive Council and that has happened. I have said before, Mr. Speaker, that I have to say I think that that was the wrong move. This time we have —
The Speaker: Amongst many others.
Mr. Walker: I wait for those to be identified. We have identified three members of Executive Council who can sit as a committee to assess the situation, but will have to report back to Executive Council who then recommend to Tynwald to direct the Gaming Board to issue a licence, and then the licence itself has got to be approved by Tynwald. So it is quite a tedious route.
Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, as I am only allowed to ask questions could I ask a question of the Chief Minister and that is at the moment we are in a very delicate negotiation state between Palace Group. We, out of courtesy, must inform other people of what is happening. We have to meet the Palace Group again in
Casino Licence Statement — Questions to The Chief Minister T682 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 the future and I do not want anyone, please, if the Chief Minister will agree, to jeopardise that position today.
Members: Hear, hear.
CASINO LICENCE - DEFINITE MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE - MOTION WITHDRAWN
The Governor: Hon. members, are there any other questions of the Chief Minister? Well then, you will know, hon. members, that I have received notice from the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Leventhorpe, that he wishes to move the immediate discussion of a definite matter of urgent public importance, in accordance with Standing Order 54(5). His motion, I believe, has now been placed before you. Are there four other members who will support the hon. member by rising?
Mr. Leventhorpe: Your Excellency, in view of what has just been told I feel that it would be politic not to move this motion at the moment, wait until tomorrow and see what the results are.
Members: Hear, hear.
HOME AFFAIRS RADIO COMMUNICATIONS - CONSIDERATION OF MOTION FURTHER ADJOURNED
The Governor: If there are no other questions we move on, hon. members, to the adjourned item, item 4, the Home Affairs Radio Communications. You will remember that we were discussing this at our last Tynwald. The members who have already spoken are Mrs. Hannan, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Walker, the learned Attorney- General, Mr. Radcliffe, Mr. Lowey, Brigadier Butler, Mr. Anderson and Mr. President of the Legislative Council. The member who moved the adjournment on this matter has the right to speak first. I therefore call on the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr. Delaney.
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I thank the mover of the original resolution for supporting, as he did last time this Court sat, for the adjournment and I would crave the indulgence of that same member to appreciate the position that the Government and Tynwald assembled finds itself in at this moment in time. The hon. member is quite aware of the difficulties surrounding this whole matter and, whereas she has a right to get a positive solution to this particular problem or an answer to this particular problem, I believe it would be, the word has just been used, politic, is probably the appropriate word, to leave this matter rest yet again. I hope that some other member or even the member herself would agree to such
Casino Licence — Definite Matter of Urgent Public Importance - Motion Withdrawn Home Affairs Radio Communications - Consideration of Motion Further Adjourned TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T683 a move, sir, otherwise this Tynwald Court, where we have already seen this morning and in the last couple of weeks in the media, could be justifiably criticised for actions that we are taking, no matter how well intentioned. We could find ourselves in great difficulty, and I thank the members for supporting my latter resolution.
Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, did you mention my name, sir?
The Governor: I did not, Mr. Maddrell. (Laughter)
Mr. Maddrell: Dealing with the hon. member for Peel, Mrs. Hannan's request for an adjournment, I would wish to ask this hon. Court today for an adjournment again for at least two months. The Public Accounts Committee, of which I am a member, are endeavouring at full speed to ascertain the facts and report to this hon. Court, fully aware of the background moves of other departments. The Home Affairs Board have engaged British Telecom to conduct a technical assessment. I did not agree with them starting along that route and so having two lots of experts dealing with the one subject, but the Public Accounts Committee, once given the remit by this Court in my estimation to find good value for money, would, and rightly so, they would seek expert advice. Nevertheless, the Home Affairs Board, at the request of Mr. Speaker, have now agreed — because Mr. Speaker is chairman of the committee — have now agreed that a technical report from B.T. can be passed down to the Public Accounts Committee. It is not in my province to determine how the Home Affairs can afford B.T. experts, something, possibly, I would have insisted they had done many years ago. As to the planning applications which are involved here more so, once they are set in motion under the Acts they will continue and therefore I do not want to pre- empt anything by saying that we should try to stop something which someone will just not stop because, under the Act, they have to go ahead. It may be said that the costs involve people outside of Government but, nevertheless, those people who are outside of Government can oppose and I hope they have done rightly, which is their right. It is unfortunate, as far as I am concerned, that our own Government is the presenter of these applications. I find the applications which are not presented could be held, but requests for them to be held, in my estimation, are falling on deaf ears or could I say another sentence, just pure opposition. Fully understanding the tenor of the resolution by the hon. member for Peel and her feeling that something must be stopped before we are in too deep, I would say to her and to this hon. Court, while she has the right attitude, in my opinion, to the problem, the addition to the previous resolution of mine will not help because of the situations which are proceeding. In my estimation this hon. Court has a very hot chestnut cooking in the Public Accounts Committee. Eventually this Government may have to pick up a very heavy cost. Personally, I hope not; that is the endeavour. So hon. members gave the Standing Committee of Public Accounts the remit to handle the affair. Please let them do it. It is being done with as much speed as possible, and I would ask you to support my request for an adjournment of the resolution until the May Tynwald, bearing in mind the April Tynwald will have Budget debates. To that end, Your Excellency, I have requested the adjournment, and the notice has been circulated to members, and I would beg their support for
Home Affairs Radio Communications - Consideration of Motion Further Adjourned T684 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 the adjournment till May, please. I beg to move:
That further consideration of item 4 be adjourned to the May sitting of Tynwald.
The Governor: Hon. members, the paper before you calls this an amendment. It is strictly speaking a motion for the adjournment and if it is seconded we will debate the adjournment.
Mr. Kermode: I will second.
The Governor: Thank you, I already had Mr. Lowey to second. Now, hon. members, we are discussing a motion for the adjournment, nothing else. Are we all agreed? (It was agreed.) Then let us proceed with that debate, please. Does any other hon. member wish to speak? Does any other hon. member wish to speak to the adjournment debate?
Mrs. Hannan: If I could just speak, just a point of clarification. It is not really the principle that I was complaining about. It is actually the planning permission going ahead and people who have a statutory right to object, causing them the spending of public money; this is my concern I will, of course, allow the adjournment today.
The Governor: Hon. members, I put to you the motion standing in the name of Mr. Maddrell that this debate be adjourned. Will hon. members in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
GOVERNMENT POLICY — DEBATE COMMENCED
The Governor: Item 5, Government Policy. I call on the Chief Minister to move.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move that:
(1) Tynwald notes the policy aims and objectives of the Chief Minister for 1987/88; and
(2) Tynwald supports the introduction by the Chief Minister of procedures for developing a more effective system for formulating, carrying out and monitoring policy plans.
As this is indeed the first policy debate that has been made on this forum perhaps I could be excused in my preamble of referring back to my election platform where I expressed the wish for a continual constitution development, continued economic development, job opportunities for our children and an ability for us to look after the less fortunate in our society. Easy words perhaps, but I am convinced that with the co-ordination of ideas and energies the next few years offer us unlimited
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987. T685
opportunities. Not only is there a need to legislate and control, we must also set examples, and I really believe that as a Government we need to be supportive and not repressive and somehow we need to re-establish in our people a pride. I do believe that a pride in the environment, a pride in belonging and a pride in this Island for which I for one am deeply committed to. If we do that, then I really believe that the problems of litter, graffitti and the tattiness that we are all fed up with will disappear. Old- fashioned values are fine and I would recommend them. Traa dy liooar is quaint and probably one of the Island's main assets but, nevertheless, change in a lot of areas has to be accepted and we must look forward and not back. It seems to me appropriate that a policy debate should precede the estimates and be followed closely by the Budget at the April sitting. The fact that the ministerial system has only been in operation for some three months inevitably restricts the control we have over policy in the short term. We are left with a legacy of committed policies from the preceding Government which have to be pursued to a fruition. These limitations on our freedom of manoeuvre, coupled with the desirability of maintaining stability, mean that today's proposals do not contain dramatic or sweeping changes which some may expect, and I have to say that I do not mind. That is not my style. I believe in a thoughtful and co-operative approach to Government. I would like therefore to deal with the specific policy programme for the next 12 months, as referred to in part (1) of the resolution and, in doing so, I will deal- with individual matters under separate paragraphs. The second part of the resolution relates to the longer term and the document entitled 'Development of Policy', which has been circulated to members, is the basis for discussion. It is an officers' document, has been drawn up in consultation with myself and is designed to provide the guidelines within which future policy could be formulated, to indicate the main demographic and economic parameters within which we must operate, and to illustrate the nature of some of the main issues facing us. In the near future I would expect to enter into detailed discussions with departments and the Treasury on their policy formulation and from those discussions initiate regular debates in Tynwald. Whilst not denying the importance of the traditional industries, the finance sector has become a cornerstone of economic growth in the Island and our efforts as a legislature must continue to be directed at creating the right environment for its further development. I would say that a most important element in this is the further strengthening of our legislative framework so as to ensure that only operations of the highest integrity are encouraged and permitted. The growth now being experienced throughout most sectors of the economy makes it possible to be even more selective in the type of business we welcome to our shores. I am happy to pursue the goal of financial probity and am delighted that the pursuit of this aim is entirely compatable with the requirements of the international financial community. The forthcoming legislative progamme reflects this emphasis and includes measures to increase regulation of the activities of certain charities and non-resident companies which bring our Island into disrepute. Also preparatory work has been done on a Financial Services Bill which will further promote measures for the good of the financial sector. A particular aim is to encourage the strengthening of the economy by broadening the base, by developing new expertise and targeting new markets. In an attempt
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T686 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 to further this objective plans are well under way for a visit to the United States of America later this year, and I am delighted to report the Chamber of Commerce is being most helpful and supportive in this venture. Another area of policy development in the form of new residents has also taken off and we are now reaching those quality economically active wealth generators who are seen as having most to contribute to the Island in all spheres of activity. In fact the interest in the Isle of Man as a good place to live and conduct business now appears to be so substantial that the marketing effort has been shifted away from increasing general awareness and towards achieving specific aims. Particular consideration is being given to the need to avoid the adverse consequences of economic and population growth, and the successful management of the economic recovery is now a main priority, and I would not like to see a repeat of some of the difficulties that faced the people of this Island in the 1970s. Insurance, both life and captive banking, business and commercial activity and ship management continue to prosper. The development of the Manx Shipping Register, which I think all members would regard as one of the major success stories of Government — instigated activity over the past few years, epitomises the value of attracting reputable, tangible business. I believe it is now important that we consolidate the success of the register and Executive Council will give consideration to the institution of an appropriately constituted Marine Supervision Commission. We will also consider methods whereby controls can be extended to the ship management companies and manning agencies operating from the Isle of Man, to ensure their activities are well regulated and reputable. When accidents occur in this particular field they tend to be very damaging and I do believe that the Island has to have regard to the safety implications of what we are doing. Also referring to maritime matters but on a less satisfactory note, hon. members are aware of the problems associated with the operation of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and there is no doubt that we must establish satisfactory operation of our vital sea links because as an island community we are entirely dependent on efficient and regular links with the outside world. It can not be acceptable to this Government that there should be perpetual question marks with respect to the operation of this essential service. Such links are not only important to permanent residents and industries of the Isle of Man, but are also critical in perpetuating the attraction of the Isle of Man as a tourist destination. Again members are aware that Wallems, one of the ship management companies, has been appointed to undertake an independent study into sea transport, passengers and freight, to and from the Isle of Man. I look forward to the completion of this study to act as a blueprint for further decisions. Our air links on the other hand have gone from strength to strength, particularly because of the enthusiasm and professionalism of Manx Airlines, further evidenced by the plans to introduce a jet on the Heathrow service. Having said this, I am aware of the company's advantageous trading position and its beneficial effects on levels of profitability. A balance needs to be maintained between the desire to maximise the level of profits and the benefits which can be passed on to the customers in terms of better service and lower price levels. As a matter of policy we will continue to co-operate in providing the necessary facilities for the maintenance and expansion of air services. There is no doubt in my mind that we are experiencing a traumatic change in
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T687 the Island's tourist industry. However, there is no future living in the past. Those who have looked to the future and made the necessary investment in modern facilities are now prospering. Those who have not or cannot are failing, and it is the intention to place more emphasis on providing the necessary tourist infrastructure, including those facilities which make the Island a more attractive location in which to spend a holiday. To this end the Department of Tourism is being provided with additional funds to assist developments of the right type; in fact there has been a four-fold increase in the General Development Fund. We have the basis for a high-class tourist industry in the natural attributes of the Isle of Man and we must be careful to preserve the fabric of our Island to retain this attractiveness. I believe the way ahead towards providing improved facilities for residents and visitors alike includes a revitalisation of Summerland, for which funds have been made available and which, due to our intervention, will be open for this year's tourist season. Also the proposed creation of a water centre, for which funding will be necessary. These projects go a long way to providing both improved leisure and sports facilities for Island residents and visitors alike. Consideration will be given to the provision of sporting facilities but an order of priorities must be determined. The development of the Department of Tourism into a Department of Tourism and Leisure will enable the necessary co-ordination between the needs of tourism and those of the sports and other organisations which exist for the local population. This matter and the future of the Sports Council has been discussed with the Sports Council and they are in agreement with this way forward. Allied to tourism and to facilities for full-time residents of the Island is the question of re-development of town centres, particularly that of Douglas. It is generally agreed that the centre of Douglas is a mixture of the good, the indifferent and the bad as far as retail outlets are concerned, and on emphasis on re-development and the move up-market is desirable. Surveys indicate there is little to tempt the visitor to spend in the Isle of Man shops and too much money being spent by Island residents off the Island itself. The difficulties of re-development are appreciated, as are the pressures for retail outlets to move to an out-of-town base. There is a commitment to the re-development of town centres and nothing as regards peripheral development which has taken place has undermined this basic commitment. Town centres, of course, are not solely a question of retail outlets. There is a burgeoning demand for more office space and this demand is not only confined to Douglas. The continuing development of the finance and business sectors will inevitably lead to even more pressure for office space. Whether this is provided by new development or the conversion of existing property, there has to be a policy that such development or re-development takes place within the existing centres for areas zoned for this kind of development. It is also important that the overall impression created by such developments should be harmonious and in keeping with the Island's image. This escalating demand for office space may well provide part of the answer to the decaying town centre residential properties and the undoubted surplus of guesthouse accommodation which is a legacy from our tourist boom days. Government has a leading role to play in encouraging re-development, both by providing the necessary infrastructure and assisting in clearing the way for new development by facilitating the acquisition of sites. We have an example in the proposed Heritage Centre adjacent to the Chester Street car park. This is a worthwhile project which will cost the developer, who is poised to proceed, in the
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T688 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 region of £7 '/2 to £8 million. Government assistance is necessary in the form of an extension to the Chester Street car park and approval perhaps for compulsory purchase of and individual property to enable site consolidation. Douglas town centre needs this kind of development and we as a Government will do all we can to ensure that it takes place. There is no doubt that it makes sense to re-develop town centres for retail use, office space and housing. It does not make sense to encroach unnecessarily on our green areas on the outskirts of main centres of settlement. The difficulties of reconciling what is available as regards town centre housing with what those who are aspiring to house ownership require are appreciated, and I think in this respect it has to be borne in mind that the former desolate areas of London and Liverpool, for example, the docks are now becoming most desirable residential areas and it would seem to me that, given the right incentive, which needs to come from Government, and appropriate redirection, there is no reason why certain of the areas in our towns should not become desirable residential locations. After all, even in this Island the advantage of being close to work, within walking distance, are not diminished by the fact that the Island is relatively small. It may well be necessary, for Government to take an active role in the improvement or, in some cases, the replacement of old and unsatisfactory town centre housing. As regards public sector housing, Government resources have been allocated for the refurbishment of older local authority properties in Douglas and Ramsey during the forthcoming year as part of a continuing programme of upgrading existing local authority properties, and we will be making a start on the northern authorities' sheltered housing project as the beginning of a programme to increase the amount of sheltered housing for the elderly in various parts of the Island. An important element in any consideration of development is that there must be a review of the Development Plan by the Department of Local Government and the Environment. The plan was approved in 1982, but since then there have been marked changes in land use requirements, and the need for updating of the plan on a regular basis and for the production of more detailed plans of particular areas must be recognised, and I know the department are working to that end. Also important in having regard to the re-development of the town centres is Government's attitude to its own properties. Through the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties Government still possess a substantial amount of property, not all of which can in any terms be considered an asset to the visual amenities of the area, and this is particularly the case in Douglas. Maintenance of properties is sensible both from an economic and environmental point of view. In this respect rationalisation of Government users of property can only make sense, and the preparation of a comprehensive inventory of property and the use made thereof is a project I will encourage during the coming 12 months. It is gratifying to note that the departments' intention to demolish numbers 1 to 4 Mount Havelock can create a temporary parking place, as there can be no doubt that these properties at present are a dilapidated eyesore and, I suggest, probably dangerous. Regarding economic development, I would refer to the Freeport site at Ronaldsway airport and can say that at long last the first steps towards a positive development have now been taken, with the signing by me last week of a lease. I welcome this as a sign of confidence in the future economic growth of the Isle of Man. A thriving freeport will add to our already formidable range of attractions and I am pleased
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T689 to report that there appears, there appears, considerable interest from first-rate potential tenants. Manufacturing industry remains an essential element in our economy and is an important provider of employment opportunities. There has been a change of emphasis from the creation of jobs to meet the needs of the unemployed to a situation where there is a shortage of suitably skilled workers. The need now is to increase the Island's supply of appropriately skilled labour by educational training by both Government and industry itself. Also, as with finance and new residents, we can afford to be more selective and concentrate on those industries which provide good employment prospects with high wages and modern conditions of employment. I think we are all conscious in this hon. Court that the average income per capita in the Isle of Man is lower than that of our neighbours, and I do believe that this is one of the endeavours we have to have to raise the net income per person. This Government will continue to promote the Island as a manufacturing centre and it will support worthwhile ventures. Turning to training and education in general, it has to be said that we must be looking to the market which we are supplying as regards our young people. I am not suggesting that they should be educated solely for the needs of the economy, but education and training must always be relevant to the community in which they operate. We must provide for the many needs of our society, whether it be in turning out hairdressers or skilled machine operators, and we will concentrate our resources to this end and will regularly liaise with potential employers to ascertain current and future requirements. I am aware, Your Excellency, of the concern of industrialists and others in the private sector as regards the kind of training being provided both in the schools and training centres and its degree of relevance to the job opportunities available. It has to be admitted that, in common with the United Kingdom, the extent and quality of training provided falls well below that of first-rate economies such as West Germany and Japan and, as such, I intend to institute a review involving all the interested parties including the Department of Industry and the Board of Education. Energy costs are a matter of concern as we are bound by a lack of indigenous resources. All our energy sources have to be imported with resultant relatively high costs. More specifically, although the need to invest in a new power station will have on-going implications for electricity charges, the rationalisation of our generation supply system will have mitigating effects in the long term. We are proud of our hospital and health services and the emphasis will be to improve them further. To this end firm policy decisions have to be made by the Department of Health and Social Security to finalise overall development plans for the health service, and an emphasis will be placed on the provision of more community services on a regional basis, such as geriatric facilities. Even though we are a small community, the continuing success of such facilities as the Ramsey Cottage Hospital and the Southern District Health Centre are positive indications of the way in which we should be moving as regards the provision of health — related services, and associated with this is the need to make more effective use of our hospital facilities, particularly in the Douglas area, and I expect to see the development of proposals in this respect moving ahead rapidly. I also refer to the necessity for a review of social security and other benefits.
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T690 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Resources, as always, are limited compared with needs, so it is important that both Government and recipients receive the maximum value from the expenditure incurred. The Department of Health and Social Security is to carry out an exercise to examine the advantages and disadvantages of continued reciprocity with the United Kingdom on social security, and the department also has under scrutiny the matter of trades union legislation, redundancy payments and will be coming forward with discussion documents within this next 12 months. The social security benefits that are being paid to 16 to 18-year-olds are under review with the intention of ensuring that the amount and form of such expenditure is to the long-term advantages of the individuals concerned. It cannot be sensible to have a system which provides positive financial benefit to young people to opt out of education, training and work. We must encourage them, and I think encourage is the right word, to consider their own long-term interests and to this end I intend to introduce recommendations this year. The introduction of the ministerial system also has consequences for the organisation of our administration and for personnel employed by Government, and I hope in the next 12 months to see the full integration of the previously independent sections of Government which now make up our departments. The ' Department of Highways, Ports and Properties will be given an allocation of resources to permit a rationalisation of office space. The continuing situation of everyone operating as previously but with a different title does not fulfil the objectives of the move to the more streamlined departmental systems, and I do believe that hon. members are experiencing at the moment just that, and I am also aware of the concern expressed by many people outside of Government regarding the growth in the Civil Service and would give the assurance that expansion will not take place without the greatest scrutiny. As a development of this exercise in the next 12 months an overall review of the senior level of the Civil Service will be undertaken to ensure that the staffing structure accurately reflects the duties and responsibilities involved. A Government Departments Bill will be introduced in the near future which will allow for more delegation of responsibility and speedier decision-making. Law and order must be a priority, and here again, Your Excellency, it sounds like an election speech, but it really is something that I believe every member of this hon. Court recognises. We have traditionally been a law-abiding society and any degeneration of standards is abhorrent and must be resisted, whether it be mindless vandalism, sophisticated crime or drug abuse. Government has and is investing heavily in financial terms as well as legislatively in making sure our reputation for firmness is retained. The prison refurbishment — over £1 million — the creation of a probation service worthy of the name and a positive emphasis on prevention of a career in crime for young drug offenders are a major concern to everyone, and it is intended that even more resources should be concentrated on the campaign against drug abuse, especially the drug pushers, and I am pleased the legislation has been strengthened by both Chambers in recent days. The Department of Health and Social Security has been requested to critically review the relevant legislation to ensure that our existing legal powers are adequate to combat this menace and to co-ordinate Government's response. The police have been allocated extra resources to increase their establishment and to make sure that the force is kept abreast of modern police methods with increased training. But there is also a parallel way forward which is worth making mention of. It is worth
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T691
finding resources, financial and organisational, to keep young people usefully occupied. Youth clubs, sporting facilities, even dry bars were suggested last month. We need not accept that hooliganism and vandalism are bound to increase. Let us not accept that the only answer to boredom and lack of excitement is lawlessness, because I do not believe that that is what the young people want, and again I think I would just refer back to my opening remarks and say that people need to be proud of their environment and they need facilities of which they in turn can be proud. Our legislative priorities over the next 12 months must reflect our policy objectives. Nothing exists in isolation and we must proceed with a clear view of what we wish to achieve and how we intend to achieve it. If we are better informed in these respects, then we will be able to take decisions on a much more selective basis so as to achieve the desired objectives, and since coming into my office last December, Your Excellency, we seemed to have lurched from crisis to crisis reacting to events rather than anticipating them. We need to see a greater reliance on planned development on a long-term basis rather than a short-term one, a short-term one frequently adopted because of the pressing need that should have been foreseen with adequate planning. It is now clear that Government must take a more business-like attitude towards its operations. We must look to value for money and to a return in our investment for the benefit of the Isle of Man, bearing in mind that the facilities that we as a Government are required to provide are socially based and people orientated. It is important that we practice sound financial discipline and that, as a policy, we budget to build up our reserves to a level which will allow us greater flexibility of response in future circumstances. Looking to the Isle of Man's relationship with the United Kingdom, the question of the extension of the Isle of Man's territorial waters limit from three to 12 miles has been a feature of the Isle of Man Government's recent discussions with the United Kingdom. This issue has perhaps become over-simplified, in that the public perception tends to relate this matter solely to the question of fisheries jurisdiction, and I do not deny the importance of fisheries but do believe that we must take a wider view, in that extended fisheries jurisdiction should follow on from the extension of territorial waters, rather than the other way round. In addition we must remember the ownership of mineral and gas rights in an extended area may well be important. The United Kingdom Government has recently introduced the Territorial Seas Bill with the intention of extending British Territorial Waters to 12 miles. This development provides the first opportunity for some considerable time for breaking the unfortunate mould into which discussions between the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom over the question of extended territorial waters have formed in recent years. There are a number of important issues involved in considering the United Kingdom Bill and its possible extension to the Isle of Man. As such, we must respond to this development in an intelligent and well thought out manner if we are to take maximum advantage of it. What we must not do is react emotionally and instinctively to the detriment of the Island's long-term best interests. The Customs and Excise Agreement and the many issues related to significant changes to it are being investigated in depth by the Treasury with the intention of providing the necessary information to enable this issue to be considered objectively. I do not particularly wish to see a major debate on the agreement today, but when all avenues and ramifications have been explored this is obviously one of the major
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T692 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 areas of decision to be faced, and I may say that psychologically I do believe that a change in our agreement would be seen as a major step forward in constitution development, although not directly related to it. Referring briefly to the continuing process of constitutional development which has rightly been a preoccupation of Tynwald, the prime concern must be the continued development and strengthening of our powers of internal self-government, particularly in view of the various issues now being raised by a minority of people at Westminster. The process of constitutional evolution in my opinion must be a gradual one, preceded by negotiation and agreement. The preservation and reinforcement of our autonomy is a vital interest of which we must be conscious at all times, and there is a corollary that follows from the principle of strengthened autonomy and self-government and that is we should be seen to govern in a mature and responsible manner such as to command respect beyond our shores. Our actions as a Government have a major role in determining the image the Island has in the adjacent islands and further afield, and finally, Your Excellency, and leading on from the last point, throughout this exposition of aims and intentions I am extremely conscious of the need for Government to have an efficient and effective public relations system to ensure that the people of the Isle of Man, and indeed the wider audience beyond our shores, are made aware of what we as a Government are trying to achieve and why. This is a two-way process involving the dissemination of information and response to questioning from outside. The image of our Island depends to a great extent on the information we provide and our response to external comment, particularly when such comment is critical. The image of Government to Island residents is also important, vitally important, if we are to proceed with the confidence knowing that the people understand and support our objectives and our means of achieving them. Your Excellency, my speech has been long; it is the first opportunity we have had of putting forward our immediate proposals. I can honestly say that I believe the second part of the exercise, the detailed discussion and formulation of policy which will take us into the future over perhaps the next five or ten years, is the more important part of the resolution in front of us today, and I would just say, hon. members, that I look for your comments, your participation in the policy- making exercise and your support today. Your Excellency, I beg to move.
Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I congratulate the Chief Minister on his excellent speech. This is a very important occasion, important because of the mover of these documents and his position as our Chief Minister, our first Chief Minister, important because of the things and policies contained in these documents which cover the whole breadth and length of Government policies; indeed there is hardly a single Government policy that is not referred to in them. The documents are also important because they are the very first policy statement of a new Government which has five years to go and therefore our reactions to these first proposals, before the ship is fully set on course, are probably the most important of all. But such very important documents demand time for study and thought, for reading and re-reading, for research, consultation, discussion and, if appropriate, very carefully thought out and prepared amendments. Now, most sadly, no hon. members who are not
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T693 members of the Council of Ministers have had a chance for this. In my case my copies of these documents arrived about 7 o'clock last night. I had another engagement; fortunately I managed to read half of them before it, a bit of them after and the rest this morning. I know of another hon. member who did not get back to his home till 11 o'clock last night and therefore was not able to read them last night. Therefore, non-Cabinet members of this hon. Court have not had any proper chance to consider these documents with the depth to which they are entitled, to enable them as parliamentarians to contribute fully to a detailed debate on such important matters. If that was intentional it would be appalling, but I am quite certain that it is not intentional. I understand that in fact the first draft of the yellow document was prepared before the New Year. However, we all know and I know how busy the Chief Minister has been and his Cabinet with all kinds of problems that have sprung upon them, and therefore I am fully prepared to accept that they were not in a position to circulate these for various good reasons until they were circulated. Now some hon. members, one at least has said to me 'Oh there is no need for them to have been circulated at all', that there was no necessity or obligation for them to be circulated and we could just have had them on our desks this afternoon. Now I would regard that as totally invalid and totally wrong. I can think of no other major policy issues where this happens. Although we do not get the Budget speech in advance, we all have a meeting a week before in private at which we fully debate the proposals. The Green Book of Estimates is circulated well in advance and orders et cetera have to be circulated in accordance with law. But much more important than what is absolutely necessary is what is right, and I believe it is right that everyone should be encouraged to think carefully and read carefully and to have time for consideration before they speak on issues as important as these, and indeed I am delighted that in both documents this principle is accepted, for on page 2 of the yellow one it says: 'It must be emphasised that these papers are designed to encourage debate'. More important, in the opening paragraph of his own speech the Chief Minister says, about rushing things, 'This is not my style. I believe in a thoughtful and co-operative approach to Government'. Now I quite agree with him, and he again emphasised the need for thought and co-operation and consultation at the end of his speech. But I think we should all have this and, as he says that is his style himself, I hope he will want us to follow the same style and have an opportunity to really consider these documents before we debate them and that is the reason for me moving my motion of deferral, and in fact I am sure it will only turn out to be a deferral for a week because, looking at the Agenda, the number of motions before us, the number of amendments that have been circulated, I cannot believe that we will not be meeting today week, and I therefore hope that, in the interests of getting the highest standards of thought, consideration and therefore of debate, the Chief Minister would agree to this item being deferred until next week. I beg to move:
Whereas hon. members have had insufficient time to consider the important documents which were only circulated last night
this item be deferred until the earlier of any meeting of this Hon. Court held next week
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T694 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
or the April sitting of this Hon. Court.
The Governor: Hon. members, I interpret that as an amendment to the motion, and I call on Mr. Cain, followed by Mr. Radcliffe. (Interruption) No. No, it is either a motion for adjournment, which it does not say, or it is an amendment, that it be discussed. (Interruption) Do you mean to put it as a motion for adjournment?
Mr. Gilbey: Yes.
The Governor: I beg your pardon, Mr. Gilbey. Then it needs to be seconded.
Mr. Quine: I beg to second.
The Governor: Well then, hon. members, though I had caught the eye of two members who probably wanted to speak to the main question, we have another case of the motion for the adjournment which we will now debate. The Five-Minute Rule applies.
Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I would speak to the motion for adjournment. In common with many other members of this hon. Court I had an engagement last night and was almost ready to leave home when these papers were delivered at about 6.45 p.m. These major documents certainly need time to study and assess. It is a blueprint for Government's aspirations for the next 12 months, and indeed far beyond that, and for any member to happily accept and approve this document at a few minutes' notice is, I think, wrong and irresponsible. In the time available I skimmed through part of the documents and I will admit that it was only a very cursory glance, but there would seem, even in that casual glance, to be certain omissions to my mind and certainly this requires a proper and reasoned debate, and you cannot have that, sir, unless you have time to prepare your ground. I certainly want more time for myself; I am quite sure that other members feel the same way, and I wonder and I pose the question, did Executive Council, the Council of Ministers, did they only have five minutes to consider this document or did they have much, much longer than we as backbenchers, if you like, have had to consider it? I urge hon. members to support the resolution for adjournment as presented. If we are not careful we are going to do something here. It has been presented almost with indecent haste and it is the old saying: you do something at haste, you repent at leisure, and I would strongly urge this to be deferred.
Mr. Kermode: Your Excellency, I would support the adjournment. I am sure the hon. Chief Minister has nothing sort of to hide or if there is anything there that is sort of anyway derogatory, but I do feel that I never had the chance to read these documents and I cannot see how an adjournment for one week can make any difference. There are a number of points I will be taking issue on, especially comments that the Chief Minister has made this afternoon, but I feel that an adjournment would be in order as far as these documents are concerned today.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, it is entirely up to members whether they wish
Government Policy — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T695 the adjournment of the debate, but I would just ask them to note really the resolution that is on the Agenda Paper. The first part of the resolution says that Tynwald notes the policy aims and objectives of the Chief Minister, and then — and I said before that this is the more important part of the resolution — 'Tynwald supports the introduction by the Chief Minister of procedures for developing a more effective system for formulating, carrying out and monitoring policy plans.'. Since my appointment it has been suggested that I should bring forward and we should have a debate on policy and that I should lay my policy before Tynwald. I have said that I believe it is impossible to formulate a policy for more than the immediate future in just a matter of months. I honestly believe that that would be the wrong way forward and the right way is in full consultation with departments and members of Tynwald, and it is all very well members saying Executive Council are the Government and the other members are just parliamentarians and they need to support, but it goes deeper than that and I would suggest that there is a need for participation, especially where members of departments have a responsibility to those departments, and I certainly do not want to do anything that is not in agreement with the departments which have a minister responsible for them on Executive Council. There is a need for policy documents to be formulated by the departments, to come up to my table to Executive Council, to have an input to go back to the department, to be broadened out, to be strengthened and then to come before Tynwald for debate and hopefully acceptance as a firm policy measure on the way forward. The documents that were circulated, they were circulated last night and I can apologise for that, hon. members, if you were short of time. I also share that problem. They are not and were not intended to be the laws of the Medes and the Persians. They are discussion documents and used as a basis for policy formulation in the future. The suggestion, Mr. Speaker, is that we defer consideration of this, and presumably that means we go straight on to the estimates and what is the discussion of the estimates about if it is not the discussion of policy? So we are saying that we should discuss the estimates in detail, that members should give their views on that, but are not prepared to give their views on the policies, perhaps the ones that I have put forward, but more importantly to me, Your Excellency, their own views on policy. That is important to me, that we get an expression as an Executive Council of the policy issues that members think are important. If there are others, and I have no doubt there are, than have been briefly outlined by me in my speech which I know was long, but it is a long, long subject and that speech could have been much longer. What I am saying, Your Excellency, is that if Tynwald wants to support the deferment or the adjournment, that is fine. We will pick it up next week and we will continue. It just seems to me to be a bit of a nonsense to defer the discussion of a policy document to allow discussion of the estimates which are in the themselves a reflection of many of the issues that I have raised this morning and are in themselves a discussion on future policy, immediate policy over the next 12 months.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I take the point made by the Chief Minister about the relationship of his policy document to these estimates and, quite frankly, it was a point I was going to make later on because the estimates are purely a reflection
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T696 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 of an earlier Administration's thinking. They are meaningless in respect of this Government's policy and to even discuss them, frankly, is a sheer waste of time, but also, Your Excellency, to debate a paper which we received last night and which the Chief Minister has just admitted to us does not contain policy anyway —
Mr. Walker: I did not say that.
The Speaker: In so many words the suggestion was this was an outline, an appraisal, if you like, of the Government's situation. Policy would be generated after ministries came together and discussed issues and generally formulated an overall policy. I accept that. But what I am saying that on the lightest of appraisals I could not find any policy, and that is my point now. I want to have a look at this document to see if in fact there is a policy there which, scanning it lightly, I could not find. I want to go into it in depth and to be able to produce some sort of thinking in relation to it. Frankly, if the hon. Chief Minister would have produced this for his electors he would never have been elected because, quite honestly, there is nothing here in this document to say 'This is the way we are going'! Your Excellency, I would like time to look at this document in depth and in the same way I feel that the Chief Minister is absolutely right; this is a meaningless document anyway at this moment and particularly as this afternoon another Government will be determining our policy for us in relation to taxation.
Mr. Delaney: The time seems quite appropriate to stand on your feet and talk about policy we are supposed to be pursuing for Mr. Speaker to do so. At this time an hon. gentleman will be telling his own constituents, members of the Westminster, their constituents and, hon. members, our constituents, exactly what policy is in in front of them, and for the Speaker to turn round and say there is no policy contained in there, I am quite amazed because it would be a brave politician indeed in the type of government we have to stand up and say 'This is the law. This is the law of Jericho, never mind the Medes and the Persians. This is what is going to happen', with 33 people of which 24 came in on individual manifestoes, even including my hon. friends in the Labour Party. The fact of it is, Your Excellency, that I have to support an adjournment because it makes no difference. What makes the difference in actual fact in thii Island is where we want to go, and I think the hon. new members of this House certainly will be selling themselves short if they think that all the policies they are going to pursue for the next five years could be contained in one document like the size of the Book of Kells, because that is the size it would have to be because even at this moment while I am talking things are happening across the water which will affect all of our constituents and will affect the financial policy of the Government in one way or another. Maybe for the good, maybe to the detriment. That is a fact we have to live with. I am sure that all the ministers, and when my hon. friend Mr. Radcliffe says he hopes that the ministers had longer than one night or 24 hours to peruse the document, I will support my Chief Minister and yes, we did. He actually consulted us and we took the document away and we were interested in what our department officers had — mine anyhow — to say in it. All the members are entitled to put forward the policies they wish to pursue, but all policies cannot be pursued, Your
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Excellency, for one very astute reason. On the basic fundamental policies of this Government all the members elected, as I understand, reading your manifestoes, are virtually split into three different camps: those that said something positive, those that said negative, and those who had not made their mind up until they got here and found out where they could go anyhow, (Laughter) and, Your Excellency, if that is the sort of policy that Mr. Speaker wishes to have put down in the document (Interruption) we might as well go back to the election manifestoes because they say nothing in reality till the day after you were elected. They certainly do not say any more than the day before you were elected. As far as I am concerned, support the adjournment for a week. It will make no great difference because I am sure that all the members of this Court have a clear understanding of where they would be like to be in five years and how they wish to get there, but I hope they do not sell themselves short and think that a Chief Minister and his nine colleagues on the Executive Council can lay down a policy which will suit everybody.
Mr. Quine: Your Excellency, I also rise to speak in support of the motion for an adjournment. The Chief Minister has spoken of it being a nonsense that we should want to follow a debate or debate this following upon the estimates. It is even a greater nonsense to put before us documents such as these with 12 hours' notice and ask us to come here and knowledgeably discuss and debate the issues in those documents; that is even a greater nonsense. But what is more surprising is that he should expect the constituents to accept that situation. We are coming here, our constituents expecting us to support them, expecting us to put their case, expecting us to either support or put forward alternative views on policies and there is no basis for that discussion. We are given no opportunity to obtain the information and have that proper debate of these issues. These documents to my view should be — I am not saying that they are from my cursory look at them — but they should be of immense importance and they should be the basis of the future prosperity of the people of this Island. Whether they are or not, that is a matter which will be judged on the Floor of this House initially and ultimately in their implementation. Members must have ample time for to digest the information in the papers, to consider the implications of the proposals and the details and to put forward their views on them, and I am not, I for one am not in a position to do that today. I think I am the member the hon. member for Glenfaba was speaking about. These were handed to me last night at 11 o'clock for debate today. That is absurd. That is the nonsense.
The Governor: Hon. members, I sense that we are not quite ready to put the question. Mr. Cain are you catching my eye? Followed by Dr. Orme.
Mr. Cain: Yes, thank you, Your Excellency. I had prepared myself to comment on the speech made by the Chief Minister, and like everyone else I was in the situation that I received my documentation late last night. I would like to support the Chief Minister at least to this extent, that we must all realise that neither his speech, nor indeed what I can best describe as his yellow book, they are not policy documents at all, nor are they meant to be, as I read them.
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They are meant, really, to be discussion papers out of which, following discussion and debate and mature consideration, policy will emerge. If they were meant to be policy documents they are a complete sham, and I say this advisedly, firstly because, whilst many desirable objectives and issues which we have all discussed over the last two or three months are mentioned and have been mentioned by the Chief Minister, to mention issues does not give you a 12-month programme. I have prepared a list of all the issues that have been issued. It runs from here to kingdom come, and there is no way that the Chief Minister or Executive Council could anywhere near attempt to complete all the issues that he has mentioned in his very lengthy speech. There is no way. Secondly, whilst many areas of Government have been mentioned, no mention is made of the means whereby any expenditure is going to be funded. There has not been one mention as to where the revenue is coming from in terms of Government priorities, as to where we are going to raise the revenue or consider fresh ways of raising revenue to fund desirable objectives. Nor is any mention made or has it been made with regard to the Green Book, as to what it contains, nor the Economic Development Committee. Thirdly, no attempt has been made to put any of the issues in any order of priority and, finally, we have not been given either a time scale other than one of 12 months, a period within which I do not believe the issues could properly be dealt with, or a financial appraisal of the likely effect of the various policy issues mentioned. So whilst I would not object to an adjournment for seven days or whatever, let us be quite clear. We have not had any strategic objectives given to us. We have not had policies given to us in a prioritised and systematic manner for us to debate and to discuss. What we have had is a list of the issues which the Chief Minister thinks should be included in a policy document, and those two things are as wide apart as you care to make them. It is fundamental to Government and fundamental to this Government, there is no more important issue than the question of Executive Council supporting the Chief Minister in preparing a properly planned Government strategic policy statement which is supported by this hon. Court. If there is any essence in Government that must be it. But please be clear — to do such an exercise requires a considerable amount of time, which the Chief Minister has not had, no way is four months long enough. If you want a properly constructed strategic plan, with all the necessary support and hard work that necessarily would have to go into its preparation, it is my view you require at least 12 months. (Members: Hear, hear.) So by all means let us adjourn consideration for a week, but I doubt at the end of a week whether in fact you are going to get that much further.
Dr. Orme: Your Excellency, I rise to support the motion for the adjournment. Like Mr. Gilbey I cannot possibly give careful thought overnight to such a document. But something which interests me about the Chief Minister's first response was that he drew our attention to the word 'notes', and I wonder whether this is some sort of official code of which the new members are not really aware. What is really intended? What does the word 'note' mean in this context? It would appear to me that we are looking for a situation where there is going to be a combination of criticism and contribution and those essentially involve some thought. Now if 'note' does not suggest that I would like to know what it does suggest.
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Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I rise to comment on the remarks of the Chief Minister dealing with the estimates, because I do not see how we can deal with policy without dealing with item 6 as well because they are both totally linked and one will affect the other, and I would also point out that the estimates that are before us are not those prepared by the past Administration; they are ones put forward by the present departments. So to test the Court I will move an amendment to the deferment and include item 6 in the deferment.
The Governor: I am not absolutely clear what your motion now says.
Mr. Kneale: That we defer both consideration —
The Governor: Five and six.
Mr. Kneale: — of item 5 and 6.
The Governor: Well, we will come to six in a moment but you are supporting the motion for adjournment of item 5?
Mr. Kneale: Yes. I believe that it is nonsense to support it in isolation (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) and I believe the two should be taken together and I believe Standing Orders will allow for such an eventuality.
The Governor: As usual the hon member has asked a difficult question. Since item 6 has not yet been moved, seconded or debated we are having some difficulty in interpreting Standing Orders to allow you to propose a motion for adjournment which has not even started, but undoubtedly if you think it is possible we will look at it, Mr. Kneale. (Laughter) Does any other hon. member wish to speak to the adjournment of item 5?
Mr. Lowey: Could I, Your Excellency, speak to the adjournment? I can quite understand hon. members' views that somehow they are getting very important documents very late on a Monday evening and expected to make definitive judgments, but they are not being asked to make definitive judgments and that is the essence on this one. It is to 'note', and to my hon. friend and successor in Rushen, Dr. Orme, it is nothing coded in it, in the wording that is used. It is to note the contents of the speech and the speech quite clearly says in the second paragraph: `The second part of the Resolution relates to the longer term and the document entitled "Development of Policy", which has been circulated to Members is the basis for discussion. It is designed to provide the guidelines within future policy will be formulated . . Now I think it is quite clear that there are two schools of thought and I still do not think this hon. Court has grasped that we have in effect embraced the middle way. We have not decided on executive Government leading the troops with a clarity and laying down the guidelines without consultation. We recognise that there is, if you like, an inability to do that with the present political set-up that we have in this particular Court. That is the reality of the situation, and our Chief Minister who has an unrivalled reputation for listening to points of view from various sources
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T700 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 really should be given our full support and backing for the style because we elected him in this Court unanimously to that position, and I believe that we owe a responsibility to back that man in his efforts to lead this Government in the way that he sees fit. Now I may very well take a different point of view with my Chief Minister regarding what I would call the role of executive Government, but the reality is he has chosen a style and this Court has backed him in that and I believe we should, as a Court, give him the backing that he requests of us. Now it seems strange to me that we are often accused of lacking taking decisions, initiative and all the rest of it. Hon. members, next month — or will it be the month after? — you will be asked to debate the Budget. You will not get any prior warning of the Budget. You will be placed, the Budget —
The Speaker: We do.
Mr. Lowey: With respect, I know what Mr. Speaker is saying, that we hear it a week before in private but we debate it then; with no prior warning they are put on your desk and you then debate it. You do not sit mum and then come the following week and do it publicly. You debate it there and then. So the point I am saying to hon. members is that it will not be a unique experience for you to be given important documents one night and asked to comment on them. Now the point I am making, and it has been stressed much more forcibly and much more eloquently than I am doing by the Chief Minister, that the fact that you have been given the papers to note is not conditioning you and your support to these notes to every single item in that policy. It is a discussion document for when we lay the policy guidelines down for the next four years. He has said there is an interim period of 12 months which the present Administration — and my hon. friend the Minister of Education says that the Budget that we will be discussing next is this Administration's Budget, but we all know it may have been the dots crossed and the is . . . the dots on the is dotted (Laughter) and the is crossed (Interruption and laughter) by this Administration. If I work at it hard enough I will get to it. (Laughter) The answer is the main spade work has all been done by the last Administration. We have presented it and done, but the die was in fact cast prior to that. But the reality of this is much much too important. Already today we have made, if you like, a delayed judgment on the casino. We are perceived —
The Speaker: Not us.
Mr. Kermode: Not us.
Mr. Lowey: We are perceived by the outside world, when we come to make decisions, that we want time, more time and more time. Now there is a time for taking time and this is the document that has been designed to give you time. We are giving you an interim report which will deal with the first 12 months and the guidelines after consultation with the members. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say in one hand 'Executive Government be executive' and in the next breath say 'And we also want to be consulted along the way'.
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The Governor: Could I stop your next breath, I am afraid, Mr. Lowey.
Mr. Lowey: Indeed.
The Governor: You have had your five minutes.
Mr. Lowey: I have had five minutes. I apologise, sir.
The Governor: Now, hon. members, as we near the end of the debate on the adjournment we have what amounts to an amendment to the motion and that amendment by Mr. Kneale, which has not been seconded but I think no-one could second it until we had discussed its legitimacy, that amendment to the motion says this , that he further proposes That Tynwald resolves that the moving of item 6 be deferred' — and here we are using the word 'deferred' in the right sense, 'be put off ab initio' be deferred until after the resumed debate on item 5. So we have a motion for adjournment of this debate, which we are very near to coming to a decision on. We have an amendment to that motion, which you may or may not choose to accept, which is that item 6 debate be deferred until after the resumed debate on item 5. Is that clear to hon. members? Now, hon. members, we require a seconder to that if —
Mr. Cain: I will second that.
The Governor: I think you cannot.
Mr. Cretney: I will second.
The Governor: But you will, Mr. Cretney, thank you. Does any other person wish to speak to this subject before we . . .
Mr. Maddrell: Excuse me, on a point of information, Your Excellency, we keep remarking about next week. I do not know what is happening next week. It does not say in my diary that Tynwald is next week. (Interruptions)
The Governor: The motion is quite clear, Mr. Maddrell. It is until a meeting of the hon. Court next week, if it goes into a third day, or the April sitting, whichever comes first.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to support the further amendment. To me it makes sense. We can relate the proposals now that the Chief Minister has put forward to the Green Book and also to the information that will be in our hands as a result of United Kingdom decisions to be taken forthwith, which will have a .-, very positive effect on our thinking in this Chamber and in consequence, Your Excellency, I think at least the adjournment of both makes sense to me and I support it wholeheartedly.
The Governor: Mr. Cannan, were you catching my eye?
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Mr. Cannan: Yes, Your Excellency, I was seeking your guidance as to when we are actually going to debate the estimates? Is it next week or at the next sitting of Tynwald? Because the Budget is provisionally arranged for 14th April and we cannot have the Budget before we have debated the estimates and, secondly, if that is correct and we are putting things back even further, then item 7, the votes on the accounts, I will require more money at the Treasury because if the Budget date is put beyond 14th April we need more money to carry on the Government. I would like some guidance. Are we putting it off? Are we fixing a definite date and time for next week? Because when we have got the estimates approved, it is then that we require to determine a policy, the Treasury requires to determine a policy for its Budget, and unless we have approved estimates and agreed estimates and agreed expenditure, then until we have got that agreement we cannot produce a Budget, sir.
The Governor: It seems to me that the answer to this problem is for Mr. Gilbey, if he will, to amend his motion for the adjournment such that there is to be a discussion of it next week.
A Member: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gilbey: Well, if that is acceptable to my seconder and to this hon. Court certainly, Your Excellency, I agree.
The Governor: Well now, hon. members, may I ask if anyone else wishes to speak before I try to sum up and put the question to the Court? Then the question before the Court is simply this. We have a motion for the adjournment in the name of Mr. Gilbey, the hon. member for Glenfaba, that the consideration of item 5 be adjourned until next week, a day to be agreed next week. That is his motion for the adjournment. To that motion there is an amendment to that motion by Mr. Kneale, the hon. member for Douglas West, which is that coupled with that should be item 6, and the form of words is that the discussion of item 6 should be deferred until after item 5 has been considered, in other words that both will be discussed next week. Now, hon. members, may I first put to you the amendment in the name of the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr. Kneale. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no.
A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys —
For: Messrs. Gilbey, Quine, Dr. Orme, Messrs. Corrin, Duggan, Cretney, Kermode, Cain, Kneale and the Speaker — 10
Against: Messrs. Cannan, Barton, Walker, Brown, May, Delaney, Mrs. Hannan, Mr. Bell, Brig. Butler, Messrs. Gelling, Karran, Leventhorpe and Mr. Maddrell — 13
The Speaker: Your Excellency, the amendment fails to carry in the House of
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Keys, sir, ten votes being cast in favour and 13 votes against.
In the Council —
For: The Lord Bishop and Mr. Anderson —2
Against: Messrs. Lowey, Ward, Radcliffe, Quirk, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Callin and the President of the Council — 7
The Governor: Hon. members, in the Council two votes cast in favour and seven against, the amendment to the motion for adjournment therefore fails in both branches. I now put to you the motion for adjournment standing in the name of the hon. member for Glenfaba. Will those hon. members in favour say aye; those against say no.
A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys —
For: Messrs. Gilbey, Quine, Dr. Orme, Messrs. Corrin, Duggan, Kermode, Leventhorpe and the Speaker — 8
Against: Messrs Cannan, Barton, Walker, Brown, May, Cretney, Delaney, Cain, Kneale, Mrs. Hannan, Mr. Bell, Brig. Butler, Messrs. Gelling, Karran and Mr. Maddrell — 15
The Speaker: Your Excellency, the motion fails to carry in the House of Keys, sir, with eight votes being cast in favour and 15 votes against.
In the Council:
For: Mr. Radcliffe and Mr. Quirk — 2
Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Ward, Anderson, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Callin and the President of the Council. — 7
The Governor: Hon. members, in the Council two votes cast in favour and seven against, the motion for the adjournment therefore fails to carry in both branches, and we continue with the debate which has been proposed by Mr. Walker and seconded with reservation by Mr. Lowey. Mr. Gilbey and Mr. Cain have spoken.
The President of the Council: Your Excellency, during the course of the discussion the word 'notes' was mentioned, what does it mean, that Tynwald notes the policy aims and objectives of the Chief Minister for the forthcoming year? I take it it is giving an idea to Tynwald of what will subsequently be introduced. It cannot say that Tynwald supports this, that and the other because most of these objects and aims will have to be subsequently proposed, seconded and carried by
Government Policy — Debate Commenced T704 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 the Court, so the only thing we are being given is some indication as to the programme which is to be instituted by the Chief Minister and his Executive Council. I think this is quite right. I do not think we have long to think about these. We will eventually have to discuss each item as it subsequently comes along. I would say that all of us were in the same position of getting them rather late. I read mine, both of the copies, late last night. But I do say that we were expecting and we were almost demanding that the Chief Minister should give some indication as to the urgency of certain matters. It was somewhat disappointing perhaps to find that some of the major industries in the Isle of Man had been almost forgotten. I refer to the agricultural section and I refer to the fact as to whether we should go in for full production or whether we should have a system of quotations and targets, as you might say. It has always been our hope that we should carry on in the Isle of Man to produce the maximum amount of agricultural produce and then sell it in the best possible market and provide for our own people, rather than cut our production down to what is required by the Isle of Man. This is a policy matter regarding agriculture, and I would hope that when we do come, that Tynwald, perhaps the Chief Minister should note this particular observation, which we are all entitled to give at this stage, and subsequently test Tynwald on whether it should receive it or not. I also was somewhat disappointed, although the minister did ask us not perhaps to discuss this vexed question of the customs and excise duties. I think, nevertheless, some indication should be given, following an election, to the Chief Minister and his associates, his ministers, as to the strength of the feeling that something perhaps should be done regarding the self-determination, the right that we should have to impose our own indirect taxes, the same as we have the right to propose our direct taxes, that we should have this right. I feel sure that many of the fears that are exercised — most members subscribe to the idea that we should have this as part of our policy but they fear the consequences of the industrial sector, and I feel sure that one of the objects and aims and the thing that Tynwald should note is that the new Executive and his ministers should be having discussions with the parties concerned, both the industrial sector and the tourist sector with a view to try to resolve a way that we could then subsequently have greater control of our own indirect taxation. Probably at this very moment in time there will be some alteration which we perhaps will have to subsequently follow, much to our, we do not like to do it. Although we like the money, the receipts from these increases, we do say `Ah, well it was not of our doing'. I remember last year or the year before when the Chancellor imposed an extra duty on the take-away meals; the 'fish and chip Budget', it was known as. None of us wanted it here. It was against the holiday trade. It was against the local people, but we accepted it, (Interruption) hook, line and — the hon. member for Castletown was hit most of all, I think, (Laughter) by that introduction.
Mr. Brown: I have lost weight, Jack!
The President of the Council: Nevertheless, I do say that these items, particularly the self-determination item, that we should aim at getting self-determination in this matter, the question of our policy towards agriculture and the products of agriculture
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and the question of our tourist industry. I was rather disappointed at some of the language that was used when talking about the tourist industry — 'traumatic' and things of this kind. I do not think there is anything wrong with the industry. I think what we are suffering from is that the customers that we used to rely on have found other homes more easily than what they can get to the Isle of Man. I found that • the trade, invariably, is selling those particular holidays, whereas in the past it was the Isle of Man and the Blackpools. When I was a small boy the people that went to the Tenerife, you could count them on your two hands —
Mr. Anderson: There were not any aeroplanes then.
The President of the Council: — those that were able to get on the banana boats. That was the only thing that was going to the Canary Islands, were the banana boats, and half a dozen or so people were accommodated. Now what a great change - great fleets of aircraft are going to these places, the Greek islands and so forth. How many people in our own midst do we know that are going to these places? It is not that our industry, our product is wrong, it is that our market is much more hard to deal with, and I hope that a more aggressive policy — congratulations to the Tourist Board on what they did last year, and what I understand they are going to do this year, was getting into the German market and we understand they are getting into the German market of a different group of people, perhaps some of the upper group that might fly in and live in the better type of accommodation. These are the policies, in my view, that we have to discuss and note, that the Tourist Board will be coming subsequently and presenting us with a policy which they will ask us to agree to, and it is only right that we do it at this time. I do subscribe to the minister in charge of the exchequer, the chancellor, when he states that he must know, and Tynwald must know, about the moneys that are available. He has had discussions with the departments. He has told certain departments that they must make certain cuts and so forth, and we must know this as quickly as possible so that we can discuss the way to spend the money. More time should be spent on finding ways of earning the money (Mr. Cannan: Hear, hear.) and less on spending the money. That is why I mentioned agriculture, a great . . . and industry and our tourism; it is all new money that comes along. These are the items that require an awful lot of attention. The other items will look after themselves. We will always have the advocates for the greater benefits for various things in social security and education and various things, but it is the earning of money that we want to put the emphasis on and I hope that the Chancellor will note that, that that is a part that has to be noted. I do hope, Your Excellency, and we do say to the minister that in the time available he did draw to our attention many items which will be receiving the attention of the Executive Council and we are very grateful for that, and I hope that the Court will support them when they do come forward. It was also nice to know that at long last something had happened so far as the Freeport, at long last. I say that as a former vice-chairman of that organisation and one that sat with some frustration, and the blame could not be laid upon the committee or . . . It could be laid at the applicants. One wanted us to spend the money and the other wanted us . . . Well, here at last we have got one that is going to do something and we wish them well.
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I do hope that the Court will support the Chief Minister in the fact that he is asking us to note his policy and supports the introduction of the procedures for the development. All of this will subsequently have to come to Tynwald for subsequent approval.
The Governor: Hon. members, I caught a number of eyes. I have a proposal, which is that we should break now for 20 minutes. (Members: Hear, hear.) At 4.40 I propose we take the one petition that we have and then return to this debate, the first to speak, Mr. Cain.
The Court adjourned at 4.20 p.m.
PETITION OF CASTLETOWN TOWN COMMISSIONERS RE RENEWAL OF PUBLIC SEWER IN QUEEN STREET, CASTLETOWN - APPROVED
The Governor: Hon. members, we turn to the petitions, item 39. I call on the Minister for Local Government and the Environment.
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, with respect to the petition of Castletown Town Commissioners for authority to borrow £40,750, repayable over 20 years, to defray the cost of renewal of the public sewer in Queen Street, Castletown, I beg to move:
That the prayer of the petition be and the same is hereby granted.
The Governor: Is that agreed?
It was agreed.
GOVERNMENT POLICY — DEBATE CONCLUDED - MOTION APPROVED
The Governor: Then we revert to the debate and I call upon the hon. member for Douglas West.
Mr. Cain: Your Excellency, as we are now discussing Government policy I think it is right that I should set out my views as to how such a policy should be created. Now a co-ordinated strategic plan, which is what should emerge from discussions on matters of policy, which must centre round the expansion and the development of the economy, for reasons that I will explain in a moment, is the most important objective of the Government of this Island. Why do I make this statement? Because Government's objectives must be to maintain and improve essential services, to improve the standard of living of the population, to reduce unemployment, to reduce the burden of taxation, and to improve the environment for the whole population,
Petition of Castletown Town Commissioners Re Renewal of Public Sewer in Queen Street, Castletown — Approved Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T707 and it must follow that if these objectives are to be obtained firstly the size of the economic cake has to be expanded because our available resources are limited, and secondly, Government has to impose discipline on itself and determine and stick to a predetermined set of policies, and finally, once a co-ordinated plan for the future has been laid before and approved by Tynwald, then Tynwald must play its part in supporting Executive Council in the execution of that policy. The election took place less than four months ago and the Chief Minister and his colleagues on Executive Council have not had, in my view, nearly enough time in which to prepare a properly thought out and co-ordinated policy statement, (Mr. Brown: Hear, hear.) nor has the Chief Minister sought to present such a plan today. A properly conceived plan cannot be prepared, in my view, unless and until a great deal of research has been undertaken, research into the future needs of essential services, research into means whereby the economy can be expanded, and indeed which sectors of the economy should be given priority in both legislative and fiscal terms, research into the likely future revenue of Government which must include that large proportion of insular income over which we have no control whatsoever, research into the means whereby we raise the revenue that we do control, research into the present and future capacity of the construction industry and Government's involvement therewith, and finally, research into the means whereby we can improve the environment. Once these exercises have been completed, then you start the difficult decision-making process in political terms. But those political decisions, which will be the responsibility of the Chief Minister and his Executive Council, must be taken, in my view, in the knowledge that the expansion of the economy must have priority, and also in the knowledge that it will probably not be possible to attain all desirable objectives prior to the next election. I have no doubt that the work involved cannot be properly undertaken in less than a period of at least 12 months, but even then members of Tynwald would have to accept considerable discipline, discipline in the sense of giving absolute priority to matters of policy which are relevant to the creation of a properly co-ordinated strategic plan, discipline in following the leadership which we have the right to expect from the Chief Minister and his colleagues on Executive Council, and discipline in the sense that I believe that the people of this Island expect leadership from our Government, discipline in not being diverted into spending unnecessary time on matters which should properly be decided by the senior civil servants in the relevant Government departments. However, if my remarks on the important issues involved in the creation of Government policy have any relevance at all, then I would ask members of Tynwald firstly to give the Chief Minister and his team the time that they will require, and secondly, to support any moves that may take place to give absolute priority to the creation and consideration of policy matters. I am sure that the electors of the Island have the right to expect Tynwald to approve a properly co-ordinated strategic plan. Let us all make sure they are not disappointed.
Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I think today's operation is somewhat difficult, in that it is rather new because it is the first time we have had the Chief Minister in this way taking this role. But as I see it, I see it as a pyramid where the Chief Minister is giving the direction under which the departments of Government will then have an input of policy, and I understand the hon. member, the President of
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T708 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
Council's concern, for example, that the agricultural industry was not particularly pinpointed. I believe that the Department of Agriculture and Forestry will have a policy for that department which will, I hope, fit into a pattern like a jigsaw puzzle. I believe it is necessary, if, for example, we have a policy, as indicated by the Chief Minister, in relation to new residents, that the planning thinking fits into that policy because if we expect people to come here who are going to make a substantial contribution towards our revenues from their tax which they are going to pay on this Island, they are not going to fit into a normal housing estate, so therefore the planning policy has to have a flexibility in it which fits them into the countryside in a way which is not detrimental to that. So what we really need is co-ordination led by the Chief Minister but within all the departments of Government. There are, of course, issues such as the customs which inevitably will have to be considered, but I believe and hope that at this stage the Treasury is working on the machine which would be necessary to move into operation where something done outside of the U.K. which could put pressure on us to alter the situation as it stands at the moment. My own view, especially as Minister for Industry, is one in which I will be extremely reticent to jeopardise the terrific contribution that the department is making to our economy, a department where the growth has been 37 per cent. in three years. Now to jeopardise that would be extremely serious and it would only be having had an evaluation of the advantages that changing that policy would bring about, and I have yet to see anybody work out a really serious study of what those advantages would be. I know we had the P. and A. report some considerable time ago which did not come down terribly clearly about a great deal of advantages; most of those are certainly hypothetical. The losses that could take place as a result of that, certainly from some of the important industrialists to whom I have spoken, could be very considerable indeed. So it would only be after a very careful evaluation of those advantages and having given the very closest consideration to the views of the industrialists that in fact we could move forward in that situation. But I believe that it is a decision that especially those who were elected at the last election to the House of Keys will have to make in the not-too-distant future and in which we will all be involved, and it will be an extremely important decision when that is made. But I believe that the outline given by the Chief Minister today is the sort of direction that I expected, not a hard and fast 'This is the way in which you are going'. I think had he come forward with that here today, I believe there would be a lot of resentment against that. I do not think it would have gone down very readily at all. But giving a sense of leadership as the way in which we should go and then looking to the departments of Government under the ministers, in which nearly all the members of this hon. Court, Your Excellency, are involved, making a contribution to that pyramid and to make it successful. I believe that is the direction in which we should go, and I believe that we want not a Government and Opposition in the terms of those who are not in Executive Council, but the whole team working together for the total economy of the Island, and agreeing entirely with the last speaker, that in order to give those better services which this Island needs in education and health and all the other things we have got to have a greater cake, we have got to have greater output in every sector of the economy in order to generate that, and, Your Excellency, I believe this is possible.
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T709
Coming back on the aeroplane yesterday, which had a lot of documentation on another island, I read their policy statement which was saying 'We have now 80,000 people, we want no more than 80,000 people and our economy is ticking over very nicely, thank you, we just want to keep it at that level', and I believe there are going to be great opportunities for this Island in the development of the economy in the insurance and the financial sectors particularly in the coming years, because those other islands which are in competition with us to some degree are at bursting point. They are saying 'We have all the development in our island that we want and we do not want any more increase in the population'. Ours is an entirely different situation because the whole of the Island of Jersey is only the size of the former constituency of Glenfaba, Sheading of Glenfaba — it has now be messed about, Your Excellency, but, never mind, that is another point; (Laughter) it has now been messed about by . . . I will not say, I will not go into that — but, anyhow, that is the size of their island and we have a different situation here. We have still got, thank the Lord, wide open spaces, beautiful country, an extremely attractive place for people to come and work, and there is going to be a great deal of pressure because middle management is sadly lacking in this Island and in order for these businesses to develop we are going to have to have people who are coming in here to develop and help train our people. I hope that the educational system in the years to come will provide from within our own community people who can do these jobs in increasing number. Thank you, Your Excellency.
Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, the Chief Minister, in introducing his policy statement, made reference to the document entitled 'Development of Policy' which he points out has been designed to provide the guidelines within which future policy will be formulated. In that document it is clearly and quite rightly stated that training, re-training and education will continue to be high priorities. It is pointed out that the demand for labour skills is changing and even now the Island has a shortage of skills in some categories, coupled with unemployment for others, the aim being to increase the overall skills of the labour force and to encourage job mobility within it. Now in his statement this afternoon the Chief Minister had this to say: 'Turning to training and education in general, it has to be said that we must be looking at the market which we are supplying as regards our young people. I am not suggesting that our young people should be educated solely for the needs of the economy but education and training must always be relevant to the community in which they operate. We must provide for the many needs of our Society whether it be in turning out hairdressers or skilled machine operators. We will concentrate our resources to this end and will regularly liaise with potential employers to ascertain current and future requirements.'. Now the 'Development of Policy' document refers to a number of goals to be achieved, including the importance of immigration for the Isle of Man. The population projections attached to that document show that without migration there will be a significant fall in population between now and the year 2,000 and the structure will alter significantly. According to the projection the overall population will fall from 64,282 in 1986 to 57,546 in the year 2,006. But it is important to take note of the projection of the 0 to 14 age range over that period. Whereas these projections indicate a decrease over the next five years, after that the numbers
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T710 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 indicate a steady and substantial increase amounting to 1800 between 1991 and the year 2,006. Now that is the forcast with a zero migration. The true position can be seen by looking at page 26 of the Green Book which gives the actual number of pupils attending our primary and second schools, and although the number of children at primary schools has shown a steady decrease over the past five or six years, the trend has now changed and the numbers have increased by 78 during the past year and are expected to go up by a further 120 in September this year. The numbers at secondary schools are also expected to increase this September. Now these figures indicate that the total increase by the year 2,006 would be well above the 1,800 projected without migration; it would be nearer a 3,000 increase and, quite clearly, if these projections are only partly true we are going to need a tremendous increase in educational spending in the future, both capital and revenue. But this is just one of the problems that an increase in population will create for the Department of Education. The Chief Minister has stated very clearly that we must provide for the many needs of our society, whether it be in turning out hairdressers or skilled machine operators. Of course the needs of a modern society are much wider than that, but these two are sufficient to illustrate the wide range of subjects taught at the College of Further Education. I was surprised to hear some members talking recently as if hairdressing was not important. If you remember that over half of our population are females and that the younger element of our male population are no longer satisfied with short, back and sides —
Mr. Delaney: What about the wig-makers? (Laughter)
Mr. Kneale: — but are also interested in contemporary hairstyles — Dominic can vouch for the work done by the wig-makers (Laughter) — and remember also that hairdressing is a skilled profession involving working with chemicals and to meet the requirements of our old and new residents we have to have properly trained personnel. A look at the yellow pages in our telephone directories will show you that there are 75 hairdressing salons in the Island. Remembering these things, you will realise why the hairdressing class at the college is one of the biggest. Now engineering has been in the news recently and Mr. Richard Holt of Ronaldsway Aircraft Company has been making some very positive statements about the requirements of modern engineering because gone are the days of the simple lathes. Modern machinery is very sophisticated and expensive, involving computers. Computers in fact play a considerable part in modern working life at all levels and children must be made aware of them at a very early age, and that is why we have introduced computer taining into our infant schools. Now quite obviously this is much more expensive than just providing the children with a book of tables, but this is the trend we have to follow if we are to meet the educational needs of the present day and the future. Keyboard skills are becoming an everyday requirement. Now I believe that all education and training should come under the aegis of the Board of Education and in my opinion the sooner this happens the sooner we will have a properly co-ordinated education system. But there are no cheap options. Modern education and training is an expensive business but it is one that we cannot afford to neglect. We must provide the skilled personnel required for modern industry and commerce and that is why the Board of Education is still treating the
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T711 expansion and updating of the College of Further Education as its number one priority. Now I would just like to make reference to another paragraph of the Chief Minister's statement when he refers to 'Allied to tourism and to facilities for the full time residents of the Island is the re-development of town centres, particularly that of Douglas', and in making reference to this I would point out to members that the Douglas town rate has just gone up to 143 pence in the pound and this again is another nail which is helping to drive the people out of the towns, and this is a subject that has got to be tackled with urgency.
Mr. Brown: Disolve the Council.
Mr. Kneale: Increased financial pressures on those who are left inside the town boundaries are increasing with the depletion of the residents within. You have only got to look at the situation that has occurred; there was a Douglas town boundary extension not so long ago. One of the complaints has been — and this you can go back over the last hundred years because it has been a continuous process — people start developing just outside the boundaries to get the advantage of the cheap rates. When the boundary was extended along Ballanard Road and brought in the Highton Hills development there, what happens? The firm that was developing there changed their mode and they have now started just outside the boundary at Braddan Bridge and Union Mills. Now this is a situation that is created by the rate problem and they even advertise 'Enjoying all the facilities of Douglas, but also paying the cheap country rates'. Now that is their advertising and this is why I say the rating problem is a very, very major reason for the neglect of the towns and the sooner we solve this problem of the rates the sooner we will get a true development within the town boundaries.
Members: Hear, hear.
The Governor: Does any other hon. member wish to speak?
Mr. Kermode: Your Excellency, I have heard a lot of remarks today relating to agriculture, the financial sector, industry and education, but what about the tourist industry, an industry that does not just, as our Chief Minister has already said, involve hotels, it involves a large part of our nation which derive a living? It also provides, or has done in the past, a large amount of money which does help some of our social policies. This Government in the past has done many things and come up many capital schemes such as the breakwater, such as the dam, and most of these are a burden on the Isle of Man as far as finance is concerned and bring no revenue whatsoever to the Isle of Man.
Mr. Karran: It keeps Douglas dry.
Mr. Kermode: I feel by giving grants to hoteliers to improve their premises is not going to bring back to the Isle of Man the tourists that we have had in the years gone by; that is a mere illusion, and if you think back, when we first built Summerland, a major capital scheme for tourism in the Isle of Man, the amount
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T712 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 of publicity we received — that was hailed as one of the finest complexes for entertainment in Europe, and I feel this is something we have got to look at for the future, a major capital scheme for tourism along the lines of a theme park, something that is going to catch the eye of every child or family that live abroad or in the U.K. anywhere at all where family holidays are concerned, this is the type of thing that everybody is looking for, and just to illustrate that, it has been said that tourism is on the wane. People can drive down the motorway to Blackpool, but does that not prove that the type of holiday entertainment that people want is at Blackpool, that is what they go for? We have many things in the Isle of Man — our heritage, our castles and even my own department looking into at the moment the Summerhill Glen, a place where we had many, many pleasures as children in years gone by that was a tourist attraction. In the United Kingdom there are many, many resorts, seaside resorts in which tourism has reduced greatly over the last five or ten years. There are motorways to these resorts, but still their tourist industry is on the wane, so the fallacy of saying that Blackpool can be driven to down the motorway is wrong. It is the fact that Blackpool over the years has managed to find finance to build major capital schemes such as the latest one which is the Sand Castle, which is talked about all over the world, not just in the United Kingdom, that pulls people to Blackpool. It is said, and it was criticised, that the hoteliers have not helped by not developing their premises. Any businessman that is sat in their House here today would realise that you are not going to throw good money after bad, you are not going to develop a hotel with a waning tourist industry, so that this Government has a responsibility to the tourist industry, because without the tourist industry there are going to be an awful lot of people unemployed and a prime example was part of the debate in here today — the casino, and I feel that we have got to get our act together, we have got to produce a revenue-producing capital scheme for tourism and stop knocking the hoteliers and Government do its bit. I feel the Tourist Board, they get the finance from Government to go out and sell the Isle of Man, but if they are going to sell the Isle of Man let us give them something to sell. The trend of the tourist industry, the holiday industry, although some people will not agree, is the licensing hours, the fact that they want to go out in the evening and not be told what time they have to stop having a drink or stop enjoying themselves. They want somewhere where they can bring their children if it is a rainy day and leave the children and always keep the children occupied and, quite honestly, over the last ten years the Isle of Man has forgotten the tourist industry and I feel this is the area where this Government cannot afford to ignore because of its social implications. I thank you.
Mrs. Hannan: A mention has been made of agriculture and fisheries and I think these are the two subjects which my department are responsible for, and I think when we are talking about policy for the future we should be talking about agriculture and fisheries and horticulture as being industries which are and can help the self-sufficiency of Mann. Now it is something that I think that we should probably look more at in detail and we probably will as time goes on in this hon. Court. However, I would like to move on really to points that were raised, and I think self-determination should come high up on the Agenda and has been raised quite
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briefly in the Chief Minister's address. However, I think self-determination is important to us, but I think to be able to claim to want self-determination we have to become nationally aware and not just in Tynwald, and I do not think we are very nationally aware in Tynwald, so we have to get over that problem first, of making people aware that we are a nation, a country in our own right, and then after that we have to move out of this hon. Court to the people and explain to the people that we are a country in our own right. We tend to see ourselves as just an off-shore island off England and most people tend to think of themselves as being English, and really the difficulty in getting over this is quite extreme, because we are bombarded by the British media, either by British national newspapers or the United Kingdom television, radio, we are all told all the time that we are part of England, and I think this is something that we have to get away from. In the Document of policy, I think it is called, 3.6 it says that Mann's unique position, being low tax, stable, low-cost, English speaking, country and I accept that while the English language has taken over our country, we do have another language and I think that more respect should be given to our native language, our mother tongue, and this brings me back to education and the self-determination, the national awareness, and unless we can get into the education system that we are a country in our own right, teach about the geography but also the history, the language of our own country, then we will not be able to make any steps forward into this national awareness and our appreciation for everything Manx. This really comes back to agriculture again and to possibly in another way fisheries, but we produce goods and if we cannot get out to the people and tell them that our goods are the best they are not going to buy them, and to bring this national awareness about they will then look for things that are Manx and, hopefully, buy that because they see it as a better product. I move on now to, it was mentioned about environmental issues. I think ecological appreciation, and I did raise it this morning about planning, but we have such a many and varied ecological structure and that there is absolutely nothing done to preserve it. We have the wetlands which run through the centre of the Island; there is nothing to protect these wetlands. We have many more areas and we are left with one or two people or one or two bodies, one body, I would think, within Government trying to protect these ecological areas and, quite frankly, most of the time it is this one small part of Government who is fighting the other parts of Government, the bigger money-spending areas of Government. I will move on now to immigration controls. I do think this is a move in the right direction. However, we need work on it so that this is not going to be abused, and if I could go back to an item that was mentioned in immigration and it is about encouraging people, welcoming people here because of social, cultural and sporting merit. Now the cultural part concerns me greatly because we seem to think of culture as being something which is outside the Isle of Man and something which is a universal type of culture. We have got our own particular culture here which is not appreciated, and I would like to see more appreciation from Government for our national culture instead of the mid-Atlantic or sub-American culture which seems to be again bombarding us. I move on now to probably more basic needs of my constituency — swimming pools, and I mentioned that again this morning, but we see that swimming pools and leisure facilities are mentioned in this document. Now one of the problems about
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T714 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 swimming pools is they are very expensive to run, and as we have seen at Ramsey, they have not been run very well and I would think probably the same occurred at Peel, and this is what concerns me, that we have not got the expertise to look after these swimming pools. If the humidity is not right in a swimming pool the structure of that swimming pool will suffer, and while we are contemplating spending £470,000 on refurbishing a pool at Ramsey, I think we have to think about the on- going structure, the actual manning and looking after such a facility, the same way in which we will have to of the £10 million facility in Douglas; I know that is not all swimming pool but that part of it, and I think this is something that we have to look at, not just providing a facility but also providing the expertise to look after that, and when I mean providing it, providing it from our own people and not just bringing someone in to do it. But my constituency wants a swimming pool. Whether they can afford a swimming pool is another thing and whether the country can afford one is another thing but the need is there, and I would just put this out to hon. members: I think if the people of Peel did not support Castletown swimming pool I do not know where it would be today.
Mr. Brown: This could be trouble. (Laughter)
Mrs. Hannan: If I move on now to jobs and employment possibilities, and I think this comes back to education and it is rather a hobbyhorse of mine because I feel that children should be educated, and this is where I go back to the education of the Manx culture and not just educating people for jobs. I think that we should try and encourage young people to stay at school maybe until they are 18, whether they take exams at the end or go on to further education, but I think there is nothing wrong with educating people because trying to make it enjoyable, trying to make it a memorable experience which can keep them going throughout life, not only in the provision of jobs but also for the enjoyment of the environment wherever they are and the appreciation of that environment, and I think that really when it comes to jobs and employment possibilities we should try and raise the earnings for the ordinary person and try and move away from the low-wage economy, because in the past that has been an incentive for firms to set up here and I think really we should encourage well paying firms that are going to look after our people. I know the Manx firms have not always looked after our people to the best of their abilities, and I think this is where we see now the need for introduction for redundancy pays for social help when it comes to jobs. But I would just hope that the Chief Minister and executive Government can take on board some of my comments today.
The Speaker: Your Excellency, we are looking at policy this afternoon against a background of the operation of the most disastrous Government the Isle of Man has experienced in this century, and the one good thing about the election is that it has produced from the Opposition members of Government to whom we can look for stimulation of thought in the future. Now I expressed my disappointment with the policy document earlier because I think what the Chief Minister has done this afternoon is to, shall I say, try to draw the Court out in respect of policy, rather than giving that firm leadership on policy which I for one would have hoped would have been forthcoming today. But
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion. Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T715 the Chief Minister has asked for reaction. Right, my first reaction is that island community, any dependency, to succeed, must always try ensure the greatest possible degree of autonomy that it can achieve. In saying that, I realise full well that we will told the Island could have its independence. I believe that to be a myth; the Island would not be given its independence by the United Kingdom Government because they would always be hedging a suggestion of independence about with barriers which would make it impossible for the Island to accept that independence. They would not want an independent Isle of Man. So we have to aim for the greatest possible degree of sovereignty within the Island that we can possibly sustain. Your Excellency, when I read the minister's words 'the continuing process of constitutional development, which has rightly been a preoccupation of Tynwald', I would say that frankly all that Tynwald has done, has been to try and put its own internal house in order and, as far as constitution evolution is concerned, it has done little or nothing to advance the constitutional cause during the past five years. In fact Executive totally disregarded Tynwald's wishes in respect of constitutional evolution and produced a resolution here which negatived that desire just prior to the election. Your Excellency, that of course is referring to a former Government, and what I have been looking for in this Government is in fact some drive towards ensuring a greater degree of autonomy for the Isle of Man to take it out of the area of threat, the area of threat which has recently been imposed by a Labour Government, or at least a Labour opposition which could one day be a Government. Now the hon. member, the Labour member for Douglas South shakes his head. Perhaps he should go and have a word with Mr. Faulds or a few other members on the other side and find out that the shadow ministers are openly saying what they will do unless the Isle of Man complies to their way of thinking.
Mr. Cretney: If they are elected.
The Speaker: Ah, you have no hope of that, then?
Mr. Cretney: No. (Laughter)
The Speaker: Nevertheless, Your Excellency, I, not being a member of the Labour Party, would not be so despondent for the future because in the not-too- distant future they will back in power again, and that is the day that we have to prepare for in the Isle of Man. The likelihood is from the polls that we will have time to do so. But, Your Excellency, please, Minister, with your council get to grips with constitution evolution. I will afford you the opportunity next month; I have got a resolution down which you can support. (Laughter) -
The Speaker: However, Your Excellency, autonomy is something which is not confined to constitution alone. We have to look at our position today - members eagerly awaiting slips of paper to find out what other Governments have done to effect our economy. What impact will the Chancellor's decisions have on our income, on the 50 per cent., of income that is derived from his decisions in the forthcoming year. You know, when I think of that decision I wonder whether we call ourselves a Government at all, and I must say to the Chief Minister, please,
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Chief Minister, with your colleagues give consideration to taking us out of the Common Purse Agreement at the earliest possible opportunity, and by that I am not advocating the destruction of manufacturing industry in the Isle of Man or the stimulation of any other industry; I am advocating a greater degree of authority for to govern within this particular Chamber. Now, Your Excellency, when we talk about autonomy again I would suggest to the Cabinet that they might well consider looking again at our European relationship. We have a special relationship with Europe at the present time but, like every relationship, it needs to be scrutinized from time to time, and I think we are coming to that stage, Your Excellency, where one must consider the impact of that relationship to the sovereign territory on our future. As its impact on that will go up probably to 20 per cent., we are going to find that reflected over here. What advantages can we derive from a better relationship? With derogations in respect of taxation? I do not know, but I feel that the situation must be examined. Should we have, or try, for a representative in the European Parliament? We have no voice there at the moment, and we certainly do not have our interest represented by the United Kingdom, because, Your Excellency, over a long period of time I have heard about consultation in relation to the needs of the Isle of Man in respect of conventions, in respect of European Courts, European Parliament and so on; those consultations never take place or, if they do, I fail to hear about them. So, Your Excellency, I would say to the minister, please look at that decision. As far as an Island community is concerned, give positive consideration to the control of the Island's sea link. Every day brings a fresh problem; the Island cannot stand this sort of operation on behalf of a vital service to our community. I am aware that you are looking at it through the medium of consultants, but when you get that consultants' report, I expect you to act to ensure that this Government will control the company that operates our ferry services. I believe that to be essential in this Island. Now, Your Excellency, another point which I would ask you to look at and not be satisfied with the fact that you are putting x millions of pound on another Government's decision into a new generating plant at Douglas, because one of the bug bears of the Isle of Man is high energy costs. Double the energy costs that are applicable in the United Kingdom, double the cost for the householder, double the cost for industry — and we badly need industry and householders able to live within their means. There is still time to think of a marine cable link with generating sources which can generate far more cheaply than ours and even relate to your development here at Douglas. That, I believe, is an essential thing for you to do. You speak in this report of strengthening the base of the economy by taking groups to the United States, for instance, to publicise the Isle of Man. God help you if you do not do better that the previous Government did in that respect! Hon. members, we had a mission going blazened with publicity as to what was going to do, and when it came back we were told what it had achieved, but we were not told the truth. The truth was that is was a complete and utter disaster, alienating Government members in the States, alienating business interests, and, in general, undermining any sort of probity the Isle of Man may have had. I believe you have got rid of Streets Financial, who were part of that disastrous set-up I believe, but Your Excellency, please, when you are putting this act together, have a word with your honorary consuls in such settings; they might be able to advise a little as to
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T717
where you can get the right advice. Now, an effective administration is another point I would make. I believe the Civil Service is growing no end, and I believe it is doing so despite the best efforts of the Civil Service Commission to try and hold it in check. But you know — what is causing the growth? We are. Every Act we are passing with its implications - and you see 'there is no financial implication' in this particular proposal — every one goes on to the list of responsibilities being undertaken by a civil servant here, there, along the line, and we must be very, very careful indeed in respect of legislation and enthusiastic in our desire to get rid of legislation — I am glad to see the old Postcard Censorship Committee scheduled for demolition. There are a host of these things operational in the Isle of Man. There are renewals of licences and all this sort of thing, when perhaps the scrapping of licences would be to the Government's benefit as apposed to renewing them; renewals for a period of time as apposed to annual renewals — all this sort of thing wants looking at, Your Excellency, to try and curtail the administration and, as we know, we have put a ministerial operation into being to try and effect economy and improve administrative effectiveness, but I am not sure yet that anyone knows how that is going to be achieved, because the old components are there and I do not know what the new sort of overlordship is going to be within the structure — perhaps the ministry has an idea about that — but I am urging that curtailment of any advance in Civil Service manpower. Now, Your Excellency, we heard law and order mentioned in the Court this morning, and I am going to say to you that I do not believe that a substantial escalation in the police force will result in that law and order. I think it has got to be taken along gradually and, with the cooperation of the people of the Isle of Man, we achieve that desirable objective but, Your Excellency, there is the need for specialist advice, and on this one I come back to the appointment of the Drugs Committee, which, rather like the hon. member for Onchan, I have felt has not served the interests of the Island well for a considerable time, and it is one of those quangos that go on and on without any sort of termination date for its being, and it is certainly the sort of operation which should be brought under the control of the Department of Health and Social Security. So, Your Excellency, law and order — yes, but please associate with law and order the provision of new courts of law, and do not do it in Athol Street; do not repeat the performance we have had here of creating new buildings with no parking whatever, no access to them — folly! Complete folly! Get it out, up near the grandstand where there is space, near the police station and have the ability to park around the law courts and have new modern law courts, not at a crazy price but at a realistic cost. One of the peculiar things I find, Your Excellency, in relation to Government, expenditure is that when Government starts to spend money they do so on a scale just about three times as much as the individual would ever contemplate. It has to be — an expression that is becoming commonplace round here now — gold-plated, and what I want to see is effective administration and not necessary with the gold plate, but you would not need much gold plate to improve the existing court administration in the Isle of Man, and there is a very real need for that. Now, Your Excellency, one of the points made in this particular report refers to, of course, the success of the financial world. I welcome that success and I hope it will be sustained. But at the same time I am very consious of the failure to advance on the part of the large part of the citizens of this Island financially. We have a
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T718 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 divided society and I think there is a real need here to try and restore prosperity with a drive through all the basic industries. Tourism, somehow in the thinking, has been written off in the Isle of Man. I am sure there will come a day when tourism will be written off, but in the meantime I am convinced that tourism has a part to play here ih the same way as it does in every other community in the world today. Everyone is going out to attract tourists into their community to spend their money. We somehow have come to the conclusion that we are going to go up-market; up-market is a fine objective, but their has got to be a period of development to get up-market, and I do not think we will want to lose traditional customers while we are trying to move up-market, and I fear, Your Excellency, that unless there is change — and I hope the Tourist Board as constituted at present will effect that change — we will be continuing a disastrous policy in respect of those engaged in the industry. Anyone in this Court must have been disheartened to see the degree of bankruptcies that have emerged throughout this particular trade, and we must do everything possible to try revive an industry which, as far as I am aware, most tradespeople in the Isle of Man look forward to the first swallows coming, because that heralds money into their pockets. The finance industry does not put money directly into their pockets; it may put it into the economy of Government — and welcome, but it is money into the pockets of the individual tradespeople that is badly, badly needed through the medium of tourism. Now, Your Excellency, agriculture has been spoken of as a traditional industry. I would say agriculture has undeveloped potential, it needs access to markets, and shortly we will be talking about paying a contribution to the United Kingdom for common services, to a Government that designates us for the purposes of agriculture as a foreign country. We need access to U.K. markets, Your Excellency, which are not available at the present time and we need a new marketing approach; it is absolutely essential that whatever we produce here must be regarded as an up-market commodity. The hon. gentleman who at one time represented Marks and Spencers will . . . he is not present in the Court today, the hon. member for Middle, but when he comes into the Court I am sure he will agree that what the need is to sustain quality and to make available to the public goods which are recognisable for quality, and price comes secondary, strangely enough, to that. Marks and Spencers have sold imported eggs of a lower quality than Manx of a far higher price than the Manx product because they have a reputation for quality, and this is what we must do in relation to our agriculture — develop a reputation for quality, develop export markets and in fact, in the face of the modern trend, extend production, and in extending production we must look to sustaining the needs of our local milling industry with the Manx product. It is no use producing everything for export and at the same time importing wheat to keep the local mill going. That is no good. We can have feeding wheat produced in the Isle of Man, and I look to the Board of Agriculture to do that sort of exercise and also to look at new an unusual industries. The growth industry at the moment, in Britain, is in fact goats, and strangely enough — (Interruptions) — goats, yes, and you go on to the type of wool which is valuable on the market, and when you talk — probably hon. members are not aware — a good sire in the cattle market might be worth £2,000 to £3,000; a good sire in the goat world is worth £7,500, so you come to the reality of market requirement, and this is something I think we cannot disregard — what
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T719
the market requires as opposed to what we think it requires. Now, Your Excellency, I have spoken on access to markets but I would also say that in fishing we have to consider not only the fishing industry as we know it, but also the marketing of the product. I know the herring fishing has diminished; I hope that that, with the conservation exercise, will not be the end of the road for the herring fishing industry. But it has always distressed Ine to find title raw product being sent abroad to be processed elsewhere, and I think there is a' need for much more processing in the Isle of Man, and frankly I would advocate to the board consideration of the importation of fish from other sources, whether it be the Faeroes or Iceland, to keep an on-going supply to outside markets going and to keep processing plants going in the Isle of Man, thus enabling your local producer, your local fisherman, to have the ability the process his catch at all times in a Manx setting.
Now Your Excellency, on the same theme — I am sorry to be so long about this — the point I would make about the other aspect of responsibility of that ministries relates to forestry. The previous administration went mad with blanket proposals for forestry around the Isle of Man — 15,000 acres on the hills. Frankly, if you talk of preservation of the environment, this was not preservation of the environment at all. There is room for planting and I hope that — I would say, I am glad to see the back of the previous forester who was a disaster for the Isle of Man, and I am delighted that we have got a new one who has thought for amenity planting and, frankly, I welcome the help in my own constituency which has come from the Board of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry in respect to amenity development.
Now, Your Excellency, I have not touched as yet on the manufacturing industry. No one can afford to neglect the manufacturing industry. I am sure it is not your intention; you make make reference of it here in this document, but where is the stimulating proposal which is going to produce more employment in the Isle of Man? I cannot find it here. I have been asking for incentives for years. Whether they be tax incentives or other incentives I do not know, but I find it strange that manufacturing industry in the Isle of Man should go into the development, areas of the United Kingdom to seek and recruit industry for the Isle of Man, and I believe that the track record would not be one portraying a lot of success. I think you have to look further afield for the Island's needs and provide a better bate, for want of an expression, Your Excellency, than we are providing at the present time, because we need to create employment for the number of people we have come to recognise as being the sort of steady number of umemployed, and we take no concern about it. Ten years ago, if anybody would have said 2,000-odd unemployed in the Isle of Man, the Court would have been up in arms appointing committees immediately to try and do something about it, but we have become a little complacent and there is a real need to follow up the job creation trail which you are advocating here with enthusiasm. Now, Your Excellency, I have noticed with interest in the policy document reference to the creation of homes, and I find it strange that that creation is confined to what I would call units for the elderly. There are a lot of people in this Island badly in need of homes, and 1 am talking of young people paying exhorbitant rents in premises which, frankly, are totally unsuitable for them and with no hope whatever of getting into either Government or corporation houses. There is a need for more housing
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T720 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 undoubtably in my view; I would ask you to investigate it and, if you do not believe me, I would suggest that the people who are in need of homes might write to the Chief Minister if he is shaking his head! This is an important point, Your Excellency, and the provision of homes should rank high on our list of requirements. Now I do not want to see an erosion of social security or 'social rights', as I would call them, and I was a little concerned when I heard of the elimination of, for instance, the death grant and I would hope that we are not going to follow the U.K. in the Thatcherite line of eliminating care or minimising care for the elderly and the needy and, in fact, those who are ill and suffering. Social rights need to be sustained in the Isle of Man, Your Excellency, and I would hope again that the idea of the Chief Minister in relation to hospitalisation is not developed too extremely. You speak in your reports, sir, of increased utilisation of Noble's — I am not quite sure how — but you also mentioned the good work rightly done by Ramsey Cottage Hospital, and the establishment of a pilot home in the south' of the Island, but my thought would be do not proliferate hospitalisation in the Isle of Man. If you do you weaken the whole of the Noble's edifice; we can really only sustain one first-class highly equipped hospital. Ramsey Cottage is ancillary to it, the southern home is ancillary to it, but let us not weaken it by a proliferation of treatment which may not be of the highest quality because we cannot afford it outside of one particular centre. So, Your Excellency, I would also ask that you acknowledge heritage a little more. I do not find any reference to it. The hon. member of Peel spoke of aspects of heritage; I would hope that in the years ahead there would•be an acknowledgement of heritage and the development of the heritage theme which is being used so successfully by your tourist department at the present time, and when•1 speak of acknowledging heritage I do not mean just paying lip service to it — do something to sustain it in development. If Cregneash is to come alive it has to have money; if other areas are to be produced as development areas they have to have support. Happily there is an indication that this is forthcoming from boards, but I would like a general acceptance from the ministry and the Chief Minister that heritage is going to be acknowledged. Now finally, Your Excellency, we need and I would turn to the Chief Minister here for the Treasury; we need the climate to create wealth. I do not think Government can hope to achieve anything at all, as was portrayed recently in regard to town centres, by itself. It must generate the right climate to produce other people's interest, and it produced their involvement in developing the Island's potential. Somehow we have become used in the Isle of Man to decrying anything related to success. If success is taking place there must some underlying reason why that person is getting away with it. 'What can we do to stop them?' is very often the theme in this Court as opposed to 'Is it not wonderful, that some enterprise is succeeding? We must try and help it on its way and help it to generate further success'. Attitude here, over the years, has been very much Manx crab attitude towards development within the Isle of Man; that attitude has got to go overboard I am sure the minister is aware of this and will do his utmost to create the atmosphere for the generation of wealth, and when it is happening, do not decry it, because it is what we need to carry on and sustain those services which are so absolutely vital for our people. Minister, short notice, but please take on board some comments about positive Government, and I would rather be trying to hold you back than trying to push
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 K721 ministries towards decisions on certain of these subjects.
Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I am sure the Chief Minister must be very grateful indeed that we accepted a discussion on this item today. It has brought and provoked a lot of ideas, a lot of suggestions, which I am sure he will be taking on board, and I do feel that bringing it forward today really envinces an attitude that he is determined to make the policy that is right for the Isle of Man, and I think that it is a credit to him for that. Although we have only had this for a very small amount of time — in fact I did not read it myself until last night — there are one or two points here that come out at me, and I know while this concerns itself with policies and the practicalities, I am only going to speak, Your Excellency, today on one or two of the practical points here. First of all, I would just like to confine a few remarks to the manufacturing and the industrial side of our income, and this is, of course, as has already been said, a very important part of our income. To me, while it is absolutely essential that we should attract new industry, it is also essential that we should create new industry in the Isle of Man, and I look at this because of the fact that we do import into the Isle of Man, I believe, something like 50 or 60 million pounds worth of goods every year, and surely there is, within some of that amount, an area in which we can compete against imports into the Isle of Man. The one that springs to mind really is one which the Speaker almost mentioned, and that is as far as afforestation is concerned. We on the previous Board of Agriculture had already looked at alternative crops, we have looked at all sorts of things to gear ourselves into the modern generation, and the modern growing methods, and the one that really comes to mind with force at the present time is the fact that across the water there is a real increase in planting of trees in the U.K. and other places. This is one of the areas in which the Government have supported the farmitig industry across the water, and we on our side here could very well now, if we had not decimated or eliminated our little forestry nursery, be competing in that very lucrative market at the present time. I have always regretted this and this is one of the points that I have always tried to make — that we should be looking at our own little industries, and to me, at that particular time, to have that little forestry nursery eliminated, was a tragedy not only for the people that worked there but for the Isle of Man itself, and I think this is borne out very clearly now, that we could by this time, instead of getting rid of the people with the expertise and the experience to do that sort of work, have had at the present time an industry which, as I have said before, would be competing on a rising market, and instead of that we are importing against ourselves. I may say too that in the planting of these particular trees a lot' of this is done by part-time people and probably job creation, and although I accept that job creation is something which does give some of our young people or older people work for a certain amount of time it is not always economical, and I know mysell\ that in the employment of part-time people for the planting of our mountain areas about 50 per cent. of the plants actually grow, and again, in talking to these people, they actually get something like £3 per week more than they would drawing unemployment benefit and other subsidies. That is not enough incentive to allow these people to do a good job, and apart from that you have to equip them and other costly measures which really — 1 feel that if the board was to employ three
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T722 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 or four men more that would be better compensation and better for everybody than just having a part-time workforce. In that particular respect there is a comment made in this: 'The social security benefits being paid to 16 and 18-year-olds are under review' — that, to me, is a sentence which should not be in here. I believe that we should be making every route possible to make sure there is nobody in this Island, no young person in thii, Isle of Man without a job at that particular age. I think that is one important point that we should make, and I know that it is absolutely important to have reserves and to make sure that we have the money available to do all sorts of things, but I think in this particular case we should, at this present time, make sure that the money that we create, the wealth that we create, goes into those channels which give the Isle of Man the biggest boost possible, and that is in looking after the wealth that we have in our young people, and I hope, Chief Minister, you will take, that point in view. Those are the one or two comments that I found in this particular document at the moment, Your Excellency, but I do compliment the Chief Minister on his portrayal of this and I believe that with the help and the suggestions that he has had today it will give him a better idea and a clearer view of what we need.
Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I think, despite the fact that, as I said earlier on, I have not had really much time to study this document, I did expect something much more dynamic, even allowing for the fact that the Chief Miniiter has only been in office for four months or so. I expected to see a list of priorities, whether it be for the various sectors and priorities within that or whatever, 1?ut what we have in the discussion paper is just a general outline, almost, of the current situation. As a leader, really, there is no lead from that office, no strategic plan and various sectors are seeking some sort of a lead, looking for encouragement, looking for direction, looking for lead. Agriculture has been mentioned here this afternoon and where it is going. It cannot go down because, to use the Chief Minister's own words, agriculture is .at an all time low and yet, in this paper, no mention in this particular document. He, to my mind, should have been stating in there that there would be positive help to market and promote Island produce, whether it be horticultural, agricultural, fishery or whatever outside of the Island to some sort of a lead again for that particular industry. Another of the basic industries, tourism — no lead here either. Is the answer nthre aggressive marketing or is the answer to abandon the whole thing arid turn the promenade into office accommodation? Desperately needed, goodness knows! We spent a lot of time — or certain people have spent a lot of time — worrying about the casino whilst the holiday accommodation, the numbers of beds, are tumbling every week through coroner's sales. The current situation — and I see no sign of an arrest and no hint of anything to help to arrest it — is that there will be more and more holiday establishments sold because of court action and we will be in an ever declining circle. Town centre redevelopment has been mentioned — essential and urgent, but no mention in the document of any way in which perhaps private enterprise could be helped to do something there. If we think about Strand Street, all the properties — a fair example, anyway — all the properties are long and narrow and probably
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T723
40 per cent. of the total area is in use as shop area. Is one answer there to help, perhaps, three or four owners of properties to get together and develop small areas into small malls? Shops below, offices above and I think some sort of hint in this document that Government would be prepared to give loans to private developers over a period of time would have been a help and I think would have perhaps set minds thinking and perhaps achieved something in that area. No mention either of Government's think-tanks in this document: Economic Development Committee — is it to have a much stronger role than it had in the past? The Employment Committee — is that to be a much stronger committee than it has been in the past? Is there to be a more positive role for committees such as these? Who is going to lay down the aims for population growth, industrial growth, more growth or less growth in the financial sector or whatever? I think that the Chief Minister should have been saying in this document these are the committees charged with that sort of duty. Your Excellency, I found it a very disappointing document and I am very sorry that it has not been, to my mind, positive enough. Perhaps after the debate here today, in a month's time, or four months' time, we may get a document from the Chief Minister with a bit more bite in it.
Mr. Quine: Your Excellency, somewhat reluctantly, for the reasons I have explained earlier today, I rise to make but a few brief comments on the papers which are before us, and the first thing I should like to do is to commend the views which have been expressed by the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Cain, for I feel that the views that he has related this afternoon go to the very root of the future prosperity and the efficient government of this Island. We simply must learn to conduct our affairs better. We must have proper planning, proper estimated procedures leading to development plans that produce the end result, and I think one cannot help but to have listened to Mr. Cain and to have been impressed that there was a real sense of direction, that there was considerable knowledge of the subject on which he was speaking. Having said that and perhaps somewhat in contradiction, because Mr. Cain did, in a way, go to the defence of the Chief Minister and his documents, I must say that I am nonetheless somewhat disappointed in the documents. I at least expected to have certain basic objectives identified for us. I expected to have an order of priorities identified for us, even if the means of getting there at this early stage was not so clear. I am afraid that is not so; that is not included in these papers. I am also disappointed that the Chief Minister has not seen fit to make a specific reference to farming in these uncertain times. The farming community are very concerned as to what the future holds for them and I am sure they will find no comfort in the fact that they have been completely omitted from reference in his policy papers. Of course there is a reference to traditional industries, but that is so broad as to be meaningless. On the matter of tourism I have my own views on what should be done for the tourist sector but I would not wish to expound those today. But one point I would wish to make is this: that I feel time is overdue for the proper parameters of responsibility between Government and the tourist industry. The time is overdue for those responsibilities, for those parameters of responsibilities to be properly defined. In my view there is too much political involvement. I can think of few
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T724 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 people less qualified to sell holidays than politicians, indeed to sell anything but politicians. What I am getting at is simply this: I believe there is a role for the politician and that he should be concerned with broad policy, he should be concerned with the infrastructure that accompanies the tourist sector, but that those in the industry should be determining their own future, that we should be restructuring to provide a tourist association which is subvented by Government, has its own staff and determines its own destiny to a very large extent. It should have latitude to find its own way and it should not be provided with the excuse that Government has not done something. On the matter of the Freeport, much as I would like this to be a success story I must say that I harbour serious reservations that it is a viable entity. I remain unconvinced because, in my view, the proper conditions in which a freeport could thrive do not exist on this Island. I fear, although I would be pleased to be proven wrong, we are flogging a dead horse and that we are getting ourselves involved in more expenditure and, at the end of the day, we are going to have more egg on our faces than when we started. It may be that perhaps not in the too-distant future we will have something of what I would term a Hamblin reaction to the Freeport. _ I believe we need, as 1 indicated this morning at Question Time, a more meaningful approach to providing the labour needs of our employers. I do not accept that the present mechanism or, to be more precise, mechanisms, because it is very fragmented at the moment, are adequate to fully assess the present and the future needs of employers and to provide an overview of the whole scene. To my way of thinking that can only be done by a cross-departmental and dedicated organisation such as a vocational training council. I am afraid we have a lot of unsatisfied customers on the Island as regards the material we are producing, and I fear that will continue to be the situation until we take stock of the situation and provide a more realistic means of dealing with this problem. 1 am surprised to find a somewhat fleeting reference to energy costs. In fact I would have thought that at least it would have picked up the story from the recommendations of the Ninth Report of the Select Committee on Energy and indicated what had been done, what had been achieved on those recommendations and where we were going from there, but I find nothing as meaningful as even that. On the matter of the health services, a year ago now we had, in my view, a very good report by two independent experts in the Health Service on the administration and on the efficiency of the Health Service and on its finances; nothing appears to have been done. There is a reference to development plans for the health services. I would like to have known more. I would like to have known to what extent the department is going to draw on those recommendations, for let us not forget there is a recommendation in there that something like one per cent. should be reduced from their revenue over the next five years, so we are talking of a recommendation that could involve millions of pounds. I would have thought that would at least have merited a mention. The Chief Minister has made reference to the probity of the financial sector, the need to maintain the probity of the financial sector, but I would think that hand in glove with that goes the matter of the control of monopolies. Here on the Island I am afraid we are in a situation where, in one form or another, monopolies are inevitable, whether it be sand and gravel or the Isle of Man Steam Packet. To my
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T725 way of thinking that underlines the need to grasp this problem and I would have thought that would have been a matter of sufficient importance to have been touched upon. Your Excellency, those are but a few of the points which I have gleaned from these papers in what I would call a superficial examination. I am convinced that the are other matters of equal or even more importance which should be identified but, regrettably, such are the arrangements that we have seen, that we have had to work to in this Court today that that is not possible. 1 am afraid it is an instance, in my mind, of maladministration.
Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, from reading these documents once, and regrettably only once, I am forced to agree with many points in them. I think any fair-minded person would do so. However, like the hon. member for Ayre who has just resumed his seat, I am disappointed that there is no clear order of priorities.
Now, as the hon. Chief Minister has kindly asked us to give our views and he is, I see, busily taking notes on what we say, I would like to briefly set out my priorities. First and foremost is the maintenance of law and order. Why? Because it is often forgotten that throughout history the primary duty of Governments has been to maintain internal and external law and order rather than all the other things which they now deal with as well, but also environmentally because it is no good having prosperity or any other things if you live in constant fear of being assaulted, robbed, mugged or subject to various other crimes.
Mr. Cannan: Like insider dealing!(Laughter)
Mr. Gilbey: The trouble is you are going to catch the wrong people if you wish to bring that up and you will not catch the right ones. But continuing, the further reason for law and order is one at which the hon. Minister of the Treasury is hinting — economic — because unless we do have law and order in all its aspects we will not get new industry, we will not get the growth of the financial sector, we will not get visitors and we will not get new residents, and to have this law and order I believe there are four objects: (I) to have a worthwhile number of police properly equipped; next, really deterrent sentences, and here I personally will never be satisfied until we again have the right to use the birch in appropriate circumstances; then I believe there is the attitude of society — particularly in a small community like this, I believe there must be people who know the perpetrators of virtually every single crime, and I believe they have a duty, if they believe in law and order, not to sit quiet but to do something about it; and the fourth way of stopping crime is to stop the social causes of it, and I have no doubt at all that unemployment is a major cause of crime as is low living conditions. That is why my second priority is economic growth. Why? Because it will reduce unemployment, increase the economic wealth of the Island, provide higher standards of living for everyone and provide the Government income which is necessary, as I am so glad the Minister of the Treasury has recognised, if we are to be able to spend money in other ways. I am delighted that the financial sector is growing so well in many spheres, but I believe, like other hon. members of this Court, that we want a balanced economy and it is equally vital that we have growth in other
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T726 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 sectors — industry, fishing, tourism and I certainly will not leave out agriculture, and I hope that the hon. Chief Minister will assure us that the omission of agriculture so far is purely an inadvertent oversight and that he does put as much stress on this as many of the rest of us. My third priority is to maintain our assets and particularly the Government assets that make up our infrastructure. By this I mean our roads and our buildings, so I am very concerned to read on page 45 of the estimates that the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties writes, as has been written before by the Government Property Trustees, '1987/88 Once again we see a considerable shortfall between the actual moneys required to carry out essential repairs and maintenance to properties and the amount likely to be made available for this purpose'. They rightly go on to point out that the longer we delay in repairing our properties and roads the more it will cost us in the long run, so it is a very false economy. I also think it is wrong that at this time, when so many of our capital assets need repair, that instead of repairing them we spend money on new capital assets. This seems to me the antithesis of any wise householder. Most people will repair their houses before they build on new rooms and garages, but all too often in Government we seem to do the reverse. My final priority is to help those in real need and I am very glad that this document does refer to economic growth being shared to benefit all. I am also very glad that my colleague, the hon. member for Castletown and Minister of Health and Social Security, is going to look at the possibility of having separate welfare benefits from those in the United Kingdom, and I would ask him to seriously consider a system of negative income tax and tax credits which would do away with the vast complications of the present system with all its many different little benefits that apply at different times to different people and which basically few of us, few of our officials and hardly any of the public understand. Under a system of tax credits or negative income tax, as most members will know, basically each person is paid an amount if their other income is not enough to give them a reasonable standard of living. I believe not only is this right but we could set a lead to the whole world in introducing such a system, because we are small enough to do so. I was interested and glad that the papers referred to immigration controls. I am quite sure, as I know are some other members of this hon. Court, that we should introduce these instead of work permits. However, I do not like controls based on wealth alone and I was very concerned to read that all the suggestions in the yellow paper were based on wealth. This is wrong and could lead to the kind of society we get in the Channel Islands. One must remember that manners does not always go with money but I believe that we should judge people who want to come here on the much wider base of their overall contribution to the community. I very much agree with the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine that we should have a tourist association eventually rather than a Tourist Board. This was recommended years ago in a report on tourism. It is interesting that most countries or areas do not have politically run tourist bodies. The bodies are run by those in the trade but supported with public sector finance. I would like to comment briefly on ministerial government. I was one of those who most strongly supported the concept and I still do. I am, however, concerned to see in various places in this Green Book of Estimates how much the introduction of it is costing us — for example, £300,000 in capital costs with substantial revenue
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results for moving people to the new Department of Highways, Ports and Properties. Also I can think of many other cases, yet I am bound to say with regret as a supporter of the system that I do not yet see any greater efficiency; in fact, I suspect in some ways our efficiency may be less in that the previous Council of Ministers managed to meet half-a-day a week. Now have to do it in a whole day but, I frankly cannot say what has gone wrong. 1 wish I knew, but I do not. But I very much hope that we will find a way of getting the system to work as I am sure it is meant to work. I agree with Mr. Speaker when he says that we should introduce the minimum legislation and scrap the maximum. Above all if we want the economy to grow, please do not tie up industry and commerce with more and more red tape, bureaucracy and legislation; that has nearly been its undoing across the water. A final and, I do believe, important thing is the style of Government. I believe that we should consult with experts whenever this is desirable. As Mr. Anderson, the hon. member of Council has said, we should have proper evaluations. Then, I believe we must give ourselves at all levels time to think. I am certain that many of the errors of past governments have been due to the lack of proper in-depth consideration and that is why I am sad that we have not been given sufficient time to properly consider the documents we have before us today. I would like to say in this connection that I think hon. members should not be too carried away by being told 'Do not worry, it just says "note" ', because, as I think Mr. Speaker has said in the past when we are asked to note something, in the future, if we do not say we object to anything it can be taken, 'Oh well, that happened, you never said anything that you did not agree', so it is virtually taken that everyone did agree. I am not saying that will happen now and I hope it will not, but it is a danger from the past. I am concerned that we were not given more time for thought, and in principle I am not prepared to accept major policy documents being given to us now or in the future and us not having proper time to consider them. Therefore I may vote against these resolutions, not because of their contents but because of the lack of time to consider them. However, I will wait to see what other hon. members may say and what the hon. Chief Minister may say in his closing remarks.
Brig. Butler: Your Excellency, I note the Chief Minister's motion has two parts. As far as the first part is concerned, he asked us to note the policy aims and objectives of the Chief Minister for 1987 and 1988. I personally, Your Excellency, do not find this difficult in spite of the short time scale because there is not really very much there to note. I do not mean that as a criticism, because if there had been a lot of instant, positive solutions I would have been probably much more critical. I do note what he says and even if the definition of 'note' means we are intending to agree with what !ie says I do not find that difficult because they are statements of ideas rather than statements of policy execution. What I think is important and has hardly been commented on is part (2), where he asks us to support the introduction by the Chief Minister of procedures for developing a more effective system, formulating and carrying out and monitoring policy plans, but I think this really has been the root of the failure of past government. I think it is what we have to get right. If we do get this right then I think everything else will follow. Now I am not exactly sure what is going to be proposed to achieve this aim, but the mere fact that it has been quantified and laid
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T728 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 down I think is most important. To me it is the most important thing that we have to discuss in this debate today. I would like to make one last point. However that particular intention comes out, whatever plans the Chief Minister formulates to achieve that aim, I think and I hope that he will be very careful of his own position. By that I mean he is at the top of the pyramid, as someone referred to it. Putting a great deal of weight upon his shoulders; he cannot avoid it in the post that he has taken on. The new system of Government is going to go on increasing that weight and I hope as part of producing a policy-making apparatus he will also take due consideration of something which protects him and helps him, keeps him away from petty details. He is going to receive constructive ideas in a properly digestive way so he can make his decisions and propose his policies without having to be driven into the ground, l1/4e1) which will happen if he goes on having to deal with the new Government under the old arrangements.
The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I want to say a few words about education and training. I do not disagree with anything that is written in this document. We obviously have to have hairdressers, or some of us have to, but education is something very much bigger than anything that is put in this document. Education is the education of the whole person, body, mind and spirit, and one thing which is very certain in the future is that we are going to have, all of us, more leisure and how are we going to spend this leisure? One of the most important things, I think, in education is helping people to think, to think for themselves, and if this Island is going to have any great future we have to have people who are trained to think. Reference has already been made to the Manx heritage, to the Manx language and culture and history. We have on this Island one of the most interesting histories in the world and it amazes me very often to find how little people who are Manx seem to know about their history. I hope I am not saying something which is untrue but that is from my own experience, and certainly a true education must involve a knowledge of Manx history and language. But we are also all of us Europeans, and therefore an education must involve some knowledge of European history, European culture, European art, European poetry and so on. We are also inhabitants of the world, and education must involve some knowledge of the world in which we all live. But lastly — and I think this is most important although some people may accuse me here of doing a commercial — we are all children of God and this involves knowing something about why we are here, what is the purpose of life, how ought we to behave, what is the goal, what is the end of all our striving, and so, although one is happy about the things regarding education and training in this document, I think they fall very short of what true education is.
Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I will not mention hairdressers, 1 will stick to the subjects that I know a little bit about! Your Excellency, I am delighted with the debate for what it has turned out to be because it is quite obvious from certainly the newer members that they do not intend to be led down the wrong path; they want to try and lead or join with those that want to go down the right path, but in the latter part of the document, Your Excellency, the members that take note that the Chief Minister specifically mentions the public relations situation, and that
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is a subject I know something about. The first thing — even the best public relations man in the world, the best public relations adviser, the best public relations company, the best public relations people can not sell to the public a bad product, particularly a product which does not want to sell itself and particularly people who do not want to sell themselves, and this afternoon — and we should know better from what has gone on in the first three months of Government — we in actual fact are our worst enemies on public relations; there is no doubt about that. To hear members this afternoon, and I refer to my hon. friend and colleague Mr. Gilbey, refer to • the fact that Executive Council now sits for a full day and says, 'What has gone wrong?' I, in actual fact, would have thought the new members particularly would be delighted that Executive Council for once — and I have been here ten years in this hon. Court — are taking their job seriously, are taking it as a full-time occupation, are prepared to lead from the front, and it does not matter how long it takes them, they are prepared to do the job positively and properly. I was interested in Mr. Cain's speech and I am sure most members — they could not afford not to be, because what he said was accurate and that is the position I think members would like to reach. The member for Ayre is the same — we want to reach that, but the Chief Minister and certainly myself and the other minister, I am sure, have had to do something within this first . . . and it is less than four months, by the way, to get something in front of members who want to go quickly in a positive direction. This document is not all-embracing and I hear reference from members who came in with me ten years ago, like my hon. friend Mr. Radcliffe talking about agriculture. Let me say to the new members, in my ten years the most positive statement on agriculture has been made by your Chief Minister of today, the most positive statement, the most honest statement. Other people have bleated — and I use that word advisedly — about agriculture but that particular gentleman has done quite a bit positively and members like myself who have been very sore against certain policies in agriculture — and I refer to the blank cheque book system — he has actually convinced on some occasions to vote for it. So let us not kid ourselves: the fact that it is not in the document maybe, just maybe, is a little bit of embarrassment for past Governments' lack of action and he finds it necessary now just to leave it still until he can get a policy together which will take it somewhere. I make no reference to tourism in my little short speech, Your Excellency, because I believe in the last ten years, and to hear Mr. Radcliffe again talking about the closure of hotels to me, of course, is very sore in my ears because I forecast this happening on so many occasions and, hopefully, tentatively, have done something to try and avoid it. So I will leave that to the minister and his members who have been appointed by you to do this job. But what about selling the good news? We have all heard the bleating, as I said — what about us saying now, after four months, sir, we are going somewhere? • I can say for my department that for the first time in seven years there is an increase of 18 per cent. in the last couple of months on the number of planning applications coming forward. Let us sell the good news for a change! If the members want to go somewhere for five years we are starting on the right step that way. Let us talk about unemployment which I hear. Of course it is a priority; it is certainly a priority for me. Let us talk about the 275 less unemployed for the first time in several years we have got now. Is'nt that good news to sell? Are'nt we starting off right? Have'nt we started? That is a great step. For the first time in several years the amount of
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T730 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987
unemployment has gone down. Social Security — we heard this afternoon or we hope to hear, and it has been passed round the Court, about our counterparts in Britain, if 1 can use that expression, about their particular Budget, which worries me no end. The one next year will worry me more when I see V.A.T. go up to 20 per cent. That will worry me more still because that will have a direct effect on our people in the Isle of Man who have not got a par as far as incomes is concerned — some 31 per cent. the difference. That is what will concern me. What are we going to do about that? Well, I will tell you one thing, Your Excellency, we have a health service and a social security system based on theirs, reciprocal, but with better terms in certain respects. What about selling that? We have not got two or three-year waiting lists for operations. We have a first-class health service, and while they have been cutting back we have been spending money building these services. Education, Your Excellency, we have built it on the same par. We pay for our students when away, we pay our way, contrary to what our Labour friends across say. We pay our way. And have we been cutting back on education? No. Even when times were rough in the last couple of years we have been spending money and the Minister of Education will tell you he wants to spend more. We have been doing that. That is positive. So instead of crying ourselves down — I tried to warn on this when the move for adjournment was made, Your Excellency — let us try talk about the positive things that we will do and we are doing. All these things are going to happen and we are going to make them happen, but we will not make them happen if we leave ourselves open, as we experienced this morning and the last couple of weeks, of letting ourselves be beaten down by bad public relations and bad P.R., and I think that is a positive step in the minister's statement — that we do not intend to be our own victims and we can so easily be that if we keep getting speeches that say 'I cannot agree with this' and to hear one member of the old Government, my hon. friend from Glenfaba, say he is going to vote against this — for what? Is there some other policy I have got to vote on, some other document? The answer is `no'. We have to vote on what is positive and what is in front of us. If I had wanted to vote against this I have got to put some other policy statement, something different that is here, and that does not exist, hon. members, because you have not had the time to do that. You have had less than four months and, Your Excellency, I think we would be wrong to ourselves if we cannot support this document knowing, as we have all said, whether it be the member for West Douglas, the member for Ayre or any other member, to give ourselves time to get the right policies so that the priorities would be laid down. Hon. members, support your Chief Minister and his ministers. Support them now and if this time next year we have not got any further down the road to success, then is the time to criticise this.
The Governor: Hon. members before calling on the hon. member for Council, Mrs. Hanson to speak, I would just like to make certain I have the feeling of the Court. It occurs to me that we are getting towards the point where we can ask the Chief Minister to reply and on that basis I propose that we give him that chance tonight although, strictly speaking, of course, we are well beyond the 6 o'clock time when I must seek your authority to continue. The proposal, therefore, hon. members,
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T731 is that we should try to finish this item, including giving the Chief Minister the full opportunity to reply; I know there are many other meetings. Is that agreed? al was agreed.) Mrs. Hanson.
Mrs. Hanson: Thank you, Your Excellency, I shall be very brief, but I would like to reply to the points made by the hon. member for Ayre and that is regarding the monopolies and merger situation in the Island. Now my board, the Board of Consumer Affairs, are now investigating the situation and will examine it in depth and indeed, last week, we had with us in the Island a senior executive from the Department of Fair Trading in the United Kingdom; in fact, he is the director of that department, and we hope to keep this line of communication open. When we have examined the situation in depth we will be reporting to Executive Council on our views and recommendations. Your Excellency, in listening to the debate this afternoon it struck me that perhaps some of the members have been expecting a policy document rather in the style of the Queen's Speech at the opening of the Westminster Parliament. Now we must remember that just over three months has elapsed since the new system of Government has come into operation and we must not forget that Executive Council is a consensus of opinion. In the United Kingdom there is a party system with a party policy, and I feel sure that this time next year the policy document that we will be presented with by the Chief Minister will be on the line of a policy document that we hear the Queen give at the opening of Parliament. Now I support this policy and I think we all ought to support the policy that has been presented to us this afternoon and give Executive Council a chance to get on with the job that they have been given to do.
Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I do not want to say much about this but I do feel that there has been much said with regards to some of the points relating to my department, and I think just to back up and enhance a bit more from what the Chief Minister's statement has said at this stage may be worthwhile. I would just say that a comment that was made regarding regional facilities and Mr. Speaker pointed out he hoped we would do nothing which would jeopardise or dilute the importance of our Noble's Hospital operation, and I can say here and now that there is no way that I would wish to do that. What we have to have in the Isle of Man is a good main hospital; of that there is no doubt, but within the communities, whether it be North, South, East or West or wherever, there is a need, because of the Isle of Man being a small community Within an island and small communities spread all over the place, of having some smaller units such as I answered in my question with regards to Southlands in Castletown and Peel - geriatric type of wards for people who are in need of short-term care before they go home to their own home. It is very much in our keeping to look at broadening into community care, and I am very keen on trying to keep elderly people in their own homes and possibly having a community warden living in an area who is responsible within a radius of, say, a quarter of a mile or a mile for certain elderly people and some form of communication back to their own home. These things can be done. They have been done in the United Kingdom and we can do them here. They are not necessarily cheap options, but they are options open to us. Also, and I think the most important thing that we have identified and I have
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T732 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 identified as a new department, coming back to the point that the hon. member Mr. Gilbey made, and that is about law and order, he said one pertinent point which I have been banging on this table now for the last few years, and that is the point with regard not only to just providing more police but getting to the social problems which create the problems that the police have to step in at the end of a line. We are very aware of this and one thing the Isle of Man has never really had is a proper Social Services. We have enacted laws and put them either into the social security system or into the health system and from that the two departments until recently were split and people did not know where to go and there was no real co-ordination. I firmly believe . . . and we have set up in our structure within the department three main committees now, the Health Service Committee, a Welfare Services Committee and a Social Security Committee. Our budget, as it is portrayed within the Green Book, shows just a Health Service Committee and a Social Security Committee. Next year it will be our intention to have three separate headings. Welfare services are very, very important to many people in the Island and, in fact, in my opinion is one area that has been left, with respect, to tick over. There has been no really strong emphasis, but it deals very much with people who have problems in whatever area, whether they are disabled, whether they are people on low incomes with specific problems, whether elderly or whatever, and we can do much to help in these areas, and that help is not just Government but it is backing up voluntary organisations. Already the department has met with the Salvation Army to try and find out where we can help them and they can help us, to find if we can provide them with more information to try to alleviate misunderstandings about what Government can help to help through to old people and these areas are other areas we want to go along. But in recognising there is a need for welfare services, one of the most important things will be that we will need to staff that properly, and I hope that that will be forthcoming. It is very important that section of welfare that the legislators of the Isle of Man in years gone by provided for is carried out properly in the Isle of Man, and I believe quite honestly that many people do not realise just what they are able to get in the way of assistance, and then that has a knock-on effect, of course, of people saying, 'Well, nobody cares about me. I live poorly, I cannot get help.' In fact, that is not so. There are many provisions we can provide. It is relaying that over to the people and, as Mr. Delaney said, trying to provide public information as to what is available. My department's area of funding is the biggest of any department of Government and we have within that, coming back to the old point, reciprocal agreements, and the Chief Minister has made comment towards where we are going along that road. It again has been commented on today, Your Excellency, and will be again tomorrow; I have no doubt about that, and I look forward — and I say this — I look forward to hearing members' views, and it was said earlier, but we are looking for leadership from the department. I can assure you, you will get leadership from the department with, hopefully, support of Executive Government, but in doing that it is also important that my department understands the views of the members of this hon. Court, and many members of this hon. Court are new members and I have not had the opportunity to hear their views in a broader range of what they see with regard to benefits and unemployment benefits and supplementary et cetera. I know some members' views, of that there is no doubt, but my department would like to hear those views and I am sure the opportunity will be taken tomorrow, Your Excellency. What I do not want to do
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T733 is come to a situation with an order that basically can only be rejected and not amended. I think it is important, as we have this gap, that we use that opportunity to give members an opportunity to voice their opinions. We have our own ideas. They may not be in mind, and that is something we want to look at. The hospital service, just going back onto that, is very important, the capital programme is very important. There is much need to increase on that and also maintenance is one area that is vital. The last department employed a maintenance manager. He is now starting to eat into those roads. It means an increase in provision of funds to repair and maintain those buildings and I would just say, as a person who is totally new to the department, my biggest concern has to be that 70-odd per cent. of the budget is tied up in salaries, and I have to say, in all fairness, my view is in my short time that that recognition is not given due recognition and the places that we have to make savings from — in fact, although our major budget is a major sum, the area within the health service vote, in fact the savings come out of a very small vote because we have 70 per cent. tied up with salaries, we have over £3 million tied up with prescriptions and then we have the small area left to adjust, which is for making any adjustments or savings or whatever. That is fine. We will be as careful as we can. We will do what we can to make sure we get the best use, but I would warn against putting undue pressure — and I would oppose it — on our finances which, in the end, regardless of what we think, will cause problems within our hospital service, and I can assure this hon. Court I would not accept that in any way whatsoever and would always fight to oppose that. It is early days yet grabbing somebody else's budget, trying to find out about it and learn about it. I have identified that already but I think there is a slight misunderstanding that 'Well, the Isle of Man does very well out of its health service because of its population, — with respect, we have to take on board that a lot of our population, because of past policies, are elderly and that creates an extra burden on our services and we must recognise that to make sure we provide a proper health service facility within the Island. There is more I could say, Your Excellency, and I am sure I will do at some future date when I know more about it, but in just saying that I felt it was worth saying at this point to fire some warning shots and, hopefully, get members to understand just part of the problem of what we all say is important — which I think is very important — the social and health welfare of our people.
Dr. Orme: Your Excellency, I can hardly believe that I am taking part in a major policy debate in a parliament of the Isle of Man in these circumstances, but so be it. I was going to say I have not yet received a definition of the mechanisms and aims involved in the process known to this Court as 'to note' but, thanks to Mr. Delaney, I have one suggestion which is appears to be that 'to note' is equivalent to 'must vote for', and I found that an interesting concept. In the absence of such assistance I intend to confine myself to noting the contents of the Chief Minister's speech by way of indicating my agreement or disagreement with the contents. I intend to begin with those areas where I agree. On page 16 the Chief Minister proposes that we should be seen to govern 'in a mature and responsible manner such as to command respect beyond our shores'. I think this idea refutes the criticism that has been put forward that he is not putting forward long-term aims. I would have said that perhaps we ought to concentrate on gaining respect within our shores
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T734 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 and looking beyond our shores after that. Also on page 16, as Mr. Delaney has already pointed out, he quotes the need for the next Government to have an effective and efficient public relation system, which I regard as self-evident. In the question of the Territorial Seas Bill on page 15 he suggested that we respond to this development in an intelligent and well thought-out manner which I also regard as fairly self-evident. I think it is a shame that he feels so negative about emotions and instincts in this area, which he tends to put to one side. On page 14 he suggests that the Government must take a more business-like attitude, which I support. He also suggests that nothing exists in isolation, which I agree with. On page 6 he suggests that the centre of Douglas retailing is a polyglot mish-mash of the good, the indifferent and the bad, which I support, and on page 5 tourism, 'there is no future in living in the past'.
Mr. Delaney: Do you support that one?
Dr. Orme: On page 1, to reach the crux of the matter, he says, 'I believe in a thoughtful and co-operative approach to Government', and I ask how we can reconcile this with the fact that, like everyone else, I have had less than 24 hours to look at these documents and speaking in raw form from disorganised notes, not through my choice. To refer to those matters where I take issue with the Chief Minister, I think I must put first forward my prejudices — let us put it that way. We are governing an economy which is in decline in real, in absolute and relative terms to the United Kingdom. In correcting for inflation, in 1974/5 the G.N.P. figure, according to the Government Economist's figures, was £203,000,000. In 1984/5 it was £196,000,000. In relative terms per capita national income, in 1975 our per capita national income was 96 per cent. of the United Kingdom's and in 1984 it was 73 per cent. Between 1978/9 and 1984/5 the Government's nett revenue expenditure rose from £37,000,000, to £85,000,000, and in view of that I find — there is some suggestion that things are okay and that we do not need to consider too many dramatic changes, and the suggestion . . . the Chief Minister put forward the idea of what is not his style, but he does not exactly illustrate what is his style. Is he going to lead from the front or not? And I think we have . . . several other people have raised that point so I am not going to go any further. But in view of my prejudice about the fact that this economy is in decline I find rather premature the sentiments that are expressed on page 2 with respect to the finance sector which he suggests we could afford to be even more selective, and also on page 2 we have a suggestion that strengthening the economy by broadening the base, and in that context he suggests a visit to the U.S.A. I am going to be rather rude, I suppose. I am going to ask him if he was going to go to El Dorado, because the Spanish conquistadores went there many many centuries ago and they did not discover any great answers either, and my experience of America has been that it offers many opportunities but very few solutions, and I think we should view it in that context and there is no El Dorado to be found there, I do not think. On page 3 he refers to this interesting definition, 'quality, economically-active wealth generators.' I asked several people what they thought this meant in the short time I had available, and I had several ideas like the E.R.N.I.E. machine, the computer that deals with the Premium Bonds, but apparently these are people that
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T735 we are going to attract to this Island and my own feeling is that we should be looking very much more carefully at the resources that we do have now, our own people, and not looking to some sort of solution appearing from the outside. On page 3 he also refers to successful management of economic recovery and several people raised this as well, but how will this recovery be created? I am not convinced that we have in place an economic recovery and I am afraid that is where I return to my prejudices. In general I would have expected within this document some advocacy of general principles, and yet I point out that on page 9 we are actually congratulating ourselves on the fact that we are going to knock down numbers 1 to 4 Mount Havelock and creating a temporary car park.
Mr. Walker: Have you seen what they look like now?
Dr. Orme: Well that is true, but`it is gratifying to note the department's intention to demolish numbers 1 to 4 Mount Havelock and create a temporary parking space.' On page 9 we have another El Dorado, the Freeport site and it actually says that if this Freeport site is successful it will add to our already formidable range of attractions. I looked up 'formidable' in the dictionary and it means 'exciting fear or apprehension' or 'difficult to deal with or undertake' and I would say that that is a very accurate use of the word in that context. On page 10 in referring to the manufacturing industry which I strongly feel we have missed opportunities over and over again, we have a comment 'Also, as with finance and new residents, we can afford to be more selective.' I cannot agree with that under any circumstances. I ask, where is the competition for employees that provides better wages within this economy? We have a low-wage economy and we are condemning ourselves to continue it. In general there are two other issues I would like to draw the members' attention to. The first is that we are once again placing our faith in a new residents policy. Now I am afraid as a former new resident I have no faith in this policy whatsoever. (Interruptions and laughter) I think we should rather accept the fact that it is not because of our own success they are coming here, they are coming here because there is nowhere else to go at the moment; everywhere is full. My conclusions from all of this and in view of the fact that the United Kingdom Budget today has reduced income tax up to £17,900 to 27 per cent., small companies' Corporation Tax to 27 per cent., my conclusion is that we are an overtaxed nation and that we have, over the last 10 to 15 years, allowed the real rate of taxes that our population suffers to increase. It always amuses me when we get into discussion on V.A.T. that we have many people in this Government who are very very critical about the tie-in between our Government and the United Kingdom Government's rate of V.A.T. — they have not been critical of spending it! The near doubling of V.A.T. rate from 8 per cent. to 15 per cent. was happily absorbed by this Government and every penny was spent, and my conclusions are that if we do not wish to get stuck in an economic syndrome which consists of high energy costs, additional transport costs, low wage costs, generally higher payments and over-taxation, together equating to just about survival and continuing the subsistence traditions of our agricultural past, we only have one route which will save us from that, and that is that the Government must offer improved tax incentives. It must reduce rates
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T736 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 of taxation and that means it must reduce its own expenditure.
The Governor: Hon. members, I call on the Chief Minister to reply.
Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, first of all I think I would thank the members who have contributed to this debate, albeit those who have contributed reluctantly. I have found it a very interesting debate and, I must say, a worthwhile one and I think it is far better now than perhaps in October, when there may have been one or two more detailed policies to offer but, in general terms, there would not , have been very much more on the table. I had to make a decision on the way forward on this one. I committed myself quite properly to making some sort of a policy speech and initiating a debate three months ago. I really believe that this is the right time of the year to do it when we are going to consider our estimates, when we are going to consider a Budget. I do not like, any more than other members, having to wait to see what happens to a Budget in an adjacent island but, I would suggest to you if we broke our links completely with the Common Purse the implications of the Budget of our neighbours would still be of the greatest interest to the people living on this Island, so we cannot pretend that just because we have a Common Purse union — which is Tynwald's decision to have because the past members of this Court have thought that our future is better closely woven with indirect taxation with the United Kingdom than separated. It is all very clever saying we will rely on another Government to make the decisions; that is not what it is all about. The decision was made here to stay closely aligned to the United Kingdom Government. I suggest — well, state quite categorically — that I would like some change in that situation, but I am absolutely convinced it has got to be negotiated properly and we have got to know the reasons for that change and why we will be better off, and I would be foolish in the extreme if I had stood up here and said 'Let us break with our Customs and Excise Agreement with United Kingdom' today on the basis of the information that members have. We all have gut feelings, perhaps, that changes should be made, but they are not good enough for firm, economic decisions that have to be taken in future. I do not make any excuses for the depth of investigation behind many of the subjects that I have put in my policy document. There has been no time — and I am not making any excuses it is a matter of fact — there has been no time to develop policy for a longer term, and if this debate had been put off till next week I suggest, Mr. Speaker that the points raised would have been very much the same as came across the floor today. Mr. Cain's comments were very, very relative, very good. I believe they were supportive. But after saying that, we do need to get on with the business and to think that we could sit back, go into in-depth discussion on policy formation and ignore the drugs issue, the Treasury issue, the youth involvement, the tourism that is happening, to say that those can just wallow on without any direction, I think, would have been a mistake. I want standards, Your Excellency, in the Isle of Man to be better than they are in the United Kingdom. I want a better standard of living. I want higher incomes. I want better benefits from social security. Of course they need paying for and those people who said that I have ignored the earning side of Government's responsibilities are just not correct. I have indicated in this speech a number of areas that are good,
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 T737 that are growing, that need control so that they will grow more in a way that we can be proud of. I have not ignored that side at all, Your Excellency. It is no use saying the easy things like — 'We want a better standard of living," the farmers are hard up, let us give them more money,' unless we have proposals for the way in which they can happen. When the hon. member on the Legislative Council, Mr. Radcliffe, tells me that the agriculture is on a low, I know agriculture is on a low, but I would just remind him he has finished five years as chairman of that particular board, Your Excellency. I do not need at this stage to be told by him the problems with the agricultural industry! I have been criticised for not outlining my priorities in some detail. The matters that I have detailed in this speech I would consider to be my immediate priorities. What I have not attempted to do was establish a particular order for them. Most of the proposals in that policy speech, Your Excellency, I recommend to this hon. Court, can all go ahead in tandem. I do not think we need to sit here and say, 'Now what shall we do first? We will look at the police. What will we do second? We will encourage growth in the economy.' That is not the way forward. A number of issues all have to happen at the same time and I believe that I have identified a number of priorities which in the immediate future we can put into action and get some semblance of co-ordination within the departments of Government. I did try to be constructive, Your Excellency. I have indicated the way forward for the immediate future and I believe that as I have indicated a way forward for the development of policy in the longterm, and that is going to need an input from all the members of the department. As I said before, they have to be prepared to come forward with policy options, they have to be investigated in depth by me, by Executive Council, Treasury appraisal. Is there a place for the Economic Development Committee? Of course there is. That has to be done and then I would very much like to get into a situation where we bring those policy documents before this Court on an individual basis so that at one sitting of Tynwald we can look at tourism, but I would much prefer properly constructed debate where there are proposals and options being put forward by Executive Council that we know will work and we know we can support and have a properly constructed debate, and I look forward to that time because I think it will be interesting and I think it will take some of the frustration that members are feeling away — the fact that they have the ability to contribute to policy making, but it cannot happen in 12 weeks. The individual criticisms that I have picked out, Your Excellency — and they are many and I am not going to go over them all, but by ignoring the agricultural sector which I did on purpose, because I do not think that there is an immediate thing that I can do to pick that one up off the bottom, it was not meant to mean — and I am sorry if it did, that it had no problems. Of course it was not. There was criticism about going to the United States of America to try and promote the Island's business. All I can say is that there are a large number of successful businessmen outside of this Court who think, who know, that there is a potential in a visit to the United States of America. If Government can go along in support of that business then I really believe that we should do. I am not saying `All the business is there in America. Let us go and get it.' What I am saying is that if private enterprise want to go and seek business, then I believe that Government should be ready to support it. Your Excellency, I am happy from my position as Chief Minister, which is a new
Government Policy — Debate Concluded — Motion Approved T738 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 17th MARCH, 1987 role, to lead from the front. I will do that. I do not want to lurch from crisis to crisis, as I said before, as has been happening over the last three months. My Executive Council do not want a continuance of that. What we need is a period in which we can develop policies. I would finally like to say that public relations perhaps should be taken as granted and my hon. colleague Mr. Orme tended to say, 'Oh! That is fine, that is easy, it is mentioned; I would support that.' The problem with public relations is that I do not think that members of this hon. Court appreciate how important they are. What I was trying to do was bring it up so we are aware of the need for it. I have not got an instant answer — I wish I had. I do not believe in this employing a P.R. man, just let me say, but there is an on- going need for Government to keep the people aware of what is going on in an open way and be responsive to criticisms and to answer questions. Your Excellency, I am sorry if some members were disaappointed with this debate. Can I say that I have not been; I have found it very useful. I hope that members will support it, because I think it will give us a keystone to go on and make further policy, definite policy, which we will bring forward to this hon. Court, and I would look to hon. members for their support.
The Governor: Hon. members, I put to you the motion standing in the name of the Chief Minister at item 5 on the Agenda. Will hon. members in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
BILLS FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE SIGNATURES OBTAINED
The Governor: Hon members, I have to announce that the Bills for signature have all been signed by a quorum of both branches. This hon. Court will now adjourn until 10.30 in the morning when we will proceed with item 6 on the Agenda.
The Court adjourned at 7.08 p.m.
CORRIGENDUM
T518 (I 8th February, 1987) line 41, delete final semi-colon and for following '2' please `to'.
Bills for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained Corrigendum