House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee Benefits Simplification Seventh Report of Session 2006–07 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 18 July 2007 HC 463- I I Published on 26 July 2007 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £2 0.00 The Work and Pensions Committee The Work and Pensions Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Work and Pensions and its associated public bodies. Current membership Terry Rooney MP (Labour, Bradford North) (Chairman) Anne Begg MP (Labour, Aberdeen South) Harry Cohen MP (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead) Natascha Engel MP (Labour, North East Derbyshire) Michael Jabez Foster MP (Labour, Hastings and Rye) Justine Greening MP (Conservative, Putney) Joan Humble MP (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood) Greg Mulholland MP (Liberal Democrat, Leeds North West) John Penrose MP (Conservative, Weston-Super-Mare) Mark Pritchard MP (Conservative, The Wrekin) Jenny Willott MP (Liberal Democrat, Cardiff Central) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/work_and_pensions_committee.c fm. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Sarah Davies (Clerk), Emma Graham (Second Clerk), Amy Sweeney and Hanna Haas (Committee Specialists), Laura Humble (Committee Media Advisor), Louise Whitley (Committee Assistant), Emily Gregory (Committee Secretary) and John Kittle (Senior Office Clerk). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Work and Pensions Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5833; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses Wednesday 2 May 2007 Page Ms Fran Bennett, University of Oxford, Mr Donald Hirsch, Joseph Rowntree Foundation and Ms Sue Royston, Citizens Advice, (Secondee to the Benefit Simplification Unit) Ev 1 Wednesday 16 May 2007 Mr John Wheatley, Citizens Advice, Mr Paul Treloar, Disability Alliance and Ms Anna Pearson, Help the Aged Ev 18 Mr Steve Broach, Every Disabled Child Matters, Ms Janet Allbeson, One Parent Families and Dr Paul Dornan, Child Poverty Action Group Ev 29 Monday 21 May 2007 Ms Abigail Howard, The Wise Group, Ms Ginny Lunn, The Prince’s Trust and Mr Michael Fothergill, Off the Streets and into Work Ev 38 Wednesday 23 May 2007 Mr Bill Farrell, Disability and Carers Service, Mr Steve Devereux, Jobcentre Plus and Ms Christine Dawes, The Pension Service Ev 51 Mr Tom Penn and Mr Charles Law, Public and Commercial Services Union Ev 60 Monday 18 June 2007 Mr James Plaskitt MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary and Mr Brendan O’Gorman, Benefit Reform Division, Department for Work and Pensions Ev 66 6 List of written evidence 1 Disability Solutions Ev 84 2 Citizens Income Trust Ev 84 3 Fran Bennett (University of Oxford), Mike Brewer (Institute for Fiscal Studies) Ev 90 4 Institute for Public Policy Research Ev 93 5 The Prince’s Trust Ev 94 6 Judy Scott Ev 97 7 Hertfordshire County Council (Money Advice Unit) Ev 104 8 Department for Work and Pensions Ev 108 9 Supplementary evidence from Department for Work and Pensions Ev 124-138, 231 10 One Parent Families Ev 139 11 Every Disabled Child Matters Ev 143 12 Supplementary evidence from Every Disabled Child Matters Ev 148 13 The Wise Group Ev 150 14 The Joseph Rowntree Foundation Ev 153 15 Housing 21 Ev 158 16 Public and Commercial Services Union Ev 168 17 Help the Aged Ev 169 18 Disability Alliance Ev 176 19 Pensions Policy Institute Ev 181 20 Chartered Institute of Taxation Ev 187 21 Child Poverty Action Group Ev 191 22 Community Links Ev 200 23 Advice NI Ev 207 24 Citizens Advice Ev 210 25 Professor J H Veit-Wilson Ev 217 26 Professor Neville Harris Ev 225 27 Ministry of Social Development, New Zealand Ev 239 List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament The reference number of the Government’s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number. Reports from the Work and Pensions Committee Session 2006-07 First Report Power to incur expenditure under Section 82 of the HC 86 Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999: new Employment and Support Allowance IT System – Further Report Second Report The Work of the Committee in 2005-06 HC 215 Third Report The Government’s Employment Strategy HC 63 (HC 492) Fourth Report Child Support Reform HC 219 Fifth Report Personal Accounts HC 220 Sixth Report The Social Fund HC 464 (HC 941) Seventh Report Benefits Simplification HC 463 Reports from the Work and Pensions Committee Session 2005-06 First Joint Report Home Affairs and Work and Pensions Committee: HC 540 Draft Corporate Manslaughter Bill First Special Report Pension Credit and Delivery of Services to Ethnic HC 297 Minority Clients: Government Response to the Committee's 3rd and 4th Reports of Session 2004-05 Second Report The Efficiency Savings Programme in Jobcentre Plus HC 834 (HC 1187) Third Report Incapacity Benefits and Pathways to Work HC 616 Fourth Report Pension Reform HC 1068 Fifth Report Power to incur expenditure under Section 82 of the HC 1648 Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999: new Employment and Support Allowance IT System 3665443001 Page Type [SO] 23-07-07 09:14:30 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1 Work and Pensions Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Work and Pensions Committee on Wednesday 2 May 2007 Members present: Mr Terry Rooney, in the Chair Miss Anne Begg Justine Greening Harry Cohen Mrs Joan Humble Michael Jabez Foster Greg Mulholland Witnesses: Ms Fran Bennett, Senior Research Fellow, Oxford University, Mr Donald Hirsch, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and Ms Sue Royston, Citizen’s Advice, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Welcome to this, the first evidence there an inevitability that there will be complexity in session in our Benefits Simplification inquiry. Good the rules to accommodate those massively diVerent morning to our witnesses. It is good to have you with individual circumstances? us and you are very welcome. Perhaps I can kick oV, Ms Bennett: To some extent that is true, but quite just to ask how you yourselves would define the often it can be used as an excuse. Quite often, diVerent types of complexity that we have in the complexity is actually about excluding people from benefits system. A nice easy one! entitlement rather than trying to meet complex Ms Royston: I am concerned with complexity for the needs. There was quite wide agreement, certainly in customer, complexity for the customer is about how the evidence I have seen for example, that means the system as a whole works: somebody comes to the testing, including joint assessment and the benefits system, not to claim a particular benefit but declaration of changes in circumstances and income, because they have hit a crisis; they need financial is quite a key element in complexity. Of course, that help. I therefore think that it is very important to is more about excluding people and targeting on look at how the system as a whole works. I think that fewer people than it is about meeting a huge range of it is important to simplify individual benefits, but it complex needs. is much more important, from the customer’s point Ms Royston: I think it is inevitable that there will be of view, to look at the system as a whole and look at some complexity, but a lot of complexity could be simplifying that. masked by better delivery for the customer. In terms Ms Bennett: In the evidence we sent in, we were V Y of an a ordable way to tackle complexity, masking arguing that it is very di cult to define complexity. complexity is very important—delivering a system In its conclusions, the Public Accounts Committee which is easy to use. I could give you a couple of suggested various ways, but it really concluded the examples. same as a lot of witnesses, namely what Sue has just said: that it is the impact on the claimant that matters and that is what you should be measuring. Q3 Chairman: Feel free. In our evidence we widened that to talk about the Ms Royston: The interaction between benefits can costs of compliance more generally. In other words, change entitlement in ways customers could not what benefit claimants have to do to claim benefits, possibly be expected to understand. A client at a V maintain their claim, and come o their claim at the CAB local to us came in. He had serious mental end of the time. We argued that the Committee’s health problems and he came in because of debt interest should be in the outcomes for claimants problems that were exacerbating his mental health rather than complexity as an issue in itself, or problems. When the debt worker looked at his simplification as an issue in itself. You should benefits, they found that he had been on Incapacity therefore look at outcomes instead of just Benefit for some time. He has an age addition and so, complexity. when he had applied for Incapacity Benefit, he was Mr Hirsch: I would agree with what has just been said.