SUPERSCIENCE An interview with S. N. GOENKA on the techniques of Buddhist Practice

S. N. GOENKA HAS BEEN TEACHING VIPASSANA MEDITATION for thirty-one years and is most widely known, perhaps, for his famous introductory ten-day intensive courses, which are held free of charge in centers all around the world, supported by student donations. Born in Mandalay, Burma in 1924, he was trained by the and prajna—and nothing else, renowned Vipassana teacher Sayagyi U Ba Khin (1899- I was affected. I said, let me try. 1971). After fourteen years of training, he retired from his life as a successful businessman to devote himself to teach- How is sila generated by watching the ing meditation. Today he oversees an organization of more mind? than eighty meditation centers worldwide and has had When I began to learn Vipassana med- remarkable success in bringing meditation into prisons, itation, I became convinced that first in India, and then in numerous other countries. The Buddha was a not a founder of reli- organization estimates that as many as 10,000 prisoners, as gion, he was a super-scientist. A spiri - well as many members of the police and military, have tual super-scientist. When he teaches attended the ten-day courses. morality, the point is, of course, there S. N. Goenka came to New York this fall for the that we are human beings, living in Millennium World Peace Summit at the United Nations. human society, and we should not do He was interviewed there by HELEN TWORKOV. anything which would harm the soci- ety. It’s quite true. But then—and it’s as a scientist he’s talking here—he According to some people, Vipassana to practice sila with controlled mind. says that when you harm anybody, is a particular I will teach you samadhi, concentra- when you perform any unwholesome meditation practice of the tion. Any objection? What can be action, you are the first victim. You School; for others, objected to in samadhi? Then he said, first harm yourself and then you harm it is a of its own. that alone will not help—that will puri - others. As soon as a defilement arises How do you use the term? fy your mind at the surface level. Deep in the mind, your nature is such that This is a lineage, but it is a lineage inside there are complexes, there are you feel miserable. That is what that has nothing to do with any sect. habit patterns, which are not broken Vipassana teaches me. To me, Buddha never established a by samadhi. I will teach you prajna, sect. When I met my teacher, Sayagyi wisdom, insight, which will take you to So if you can see that mental U Ba Khin, he simply asked me a few the depth of the mind. I will teach you defilement is causing anxiety and pain questions. He asked me if, as a Hindu to go to the depth of the mind, the for yourself, that leader, I had any objection towards source where the impurities start and is the beginning of sila and of com- sila, that is, morality. How can there they get multiplied and they get passion? be any objection? But how can you stored so that you can clear them out. If you can change that to compassion, practice sila unless you have control So when my teacher told me: I will then another reality becomes so clear.

of the mind? He said, I will teach you teach you only these three—sila, If instead of generating anger or hatred © CHRIS DINERMAN

44 W INTER 2000 TRICYCLE: T HE BUDDHIST REVIEW 45 or passion or fear or ego, I generate I find someone abusing me, because you are observing the truth. love, compassion, goodwill, then nature I get angry. You are reacting to the It’s not imagination. Not philosophy or starts rewarding me. words at the apparent level, yes, true. thinking. Truth, breath, truth as I feel so peaceful, so much harmony You are reacting. But Buddha says you breath, deep or shallow. The mind within me. It is such that when I defile are actually reacting to the sensations, becomes so sharp that in the area my mind I get punishment then and body sensations. That when you feel around the nostrils, you start feeling there, and when I purify my mind I get body sensation and you are ignorant, some biochemical reaction that means a reward then and there. then you keep on defiling your mind by some physical sensation. This is always craving or by aversion, by greed or by there throughout the body, but the What happens during a ten-day hatred or anger. Because you don’t mind was so gross it was feeling only Vipassana course? know what’s happening. very gross sensations like pain or such. The whole process is one of total real- But otherwise there are so many sen- ization, the process of self-realization, When you hear praise or abuse, is the sations which the mind is not capable truth pertaining to oneself, by oneself, response filtered to feel. within oneself. It is not an intellectual through the psychological game. It is not an emotional or devo- mind to the bodily sensations, or is it Can you say something about the Top: S.N. Goenka offers meditation instruction tional game: “Oh, Buddha said such simultaneous? generation of wisdom? during a retreat at the Burmese Monastery in , India, 1971. Right: S. N. Goenka and such . . . so wonderful . . . I must It is one after the other, but so quick Is insight the same as wisdom? pays his respects to his teacher, Sayagyi U Ba accept.” It is pure science. I must that you can’t separate them. So Same same same! Insight is not trying Khin, at the International Meditation Centre in Yangon, Burma, circa 1968. understand what’s happening within quick! At some point automatically to understand the reality within myself me, what’s the truth within me. We you can start realizing, “Look what’s merely at the intellectual level, but I start with breath. It looks like a physi - happening! I have generated anger.” understand it now at the experiential cal concept, the breath moving in and And the Vipassana meditator will level. For anybody who admires moving out. It is true. But on the immediately say, “Oh, a lot of hate! Buddha’s teaching—that everything is deeper level the breath is strongly There is a lot of hate in the body, pal - impermanent, changing—this is at the connected to mind, to mental impuri- pitation is increased…Oh, miserable. I intellectual level. Yes, everything’s awareness means you are not reacting ties. While we’re meditating, and we’re feel miserable.” changing. Nothing is permanent. Quite Does the object of awareness ever dis- to it. Say the object, the sensation, is Is it possible to transcend awareness observing the breath, the mind starts If you are not working with the body true. But that doesn’t help. When I appear so that there’s only awareness very pleasant. The old habit pattern itself? wandering—some memory of the past, sensations, then you are working only practice Vipassana, I start with sensa- of awareness itself? was that when we feel this sensation Certainly. But that takes time. If you some thoughts of the future—immedi- at the intellectual level. You might say, tion: Look, sensation arises, seems to Exactly. But when I say I am aware of we react with, “Ah, Wonderful! I must keep on thinking about this, it will be ately what we notice is that the “Anger is not good,” or “Lust is not stay for some time but passes, is not this object, and “I” is there, “I” am continue—this must be retained.” Then imagination. No imagination is allowed breath has lost its normality: it might good,” or “Fear is not—.” All of this is eternal. aware of this. This is a duality. Slowly this is not bare awareness. But if you in the whole technique. Be with the be slightly hard, slightly fast. And as intellectual, moral teachings heard in And after four, five, six days, the as you proceed, “I” goes away. Things keep on, just awareness, let me see present moment as it is. Otherwise soon as that impurity is gone away it childhood. Wonderful. They help. But sensations get dissolved. There is no are just happening, and the knowing what happens, it changes. You are just you will be thinking: , nirvana is is normal again. That means the breath when you practice, you understand more solidity in the entire body. Mere part knows. That’s all. observing the changing nature of the like this, I must—You haven’t experi- is strongly connected to the mind, and why they’re not good. Not only do I vibration, very subtle vibration. So this sensations. This sensation or that sen- enced not only mind but mental impurities. harm others by generating these is now experience. What Is that the same as what some sation, makes no difference. nirvana. You’ve heard about nirvana, So we are here to experiment, to defilements of anger or passion or fear is the purpose of reacting to something teachers call “bare attention”? you’ve intellectualized about nirvana, explore what is happening within us. or evil, I harm myself also, simultane - when it is changing so quickly? What is Yes, this is bare attention. Do you move to a place where there’s you’ve emotionalized about nirvana. At a deeper level, one finds that mind ously. the purpose of reacting with craving or absolutely no self-consciousness of You don’t know what is affecting the body at the sensation Vipassana is observing the truth. clinging? It passes away. Or hatred: it When there’s no object. the awareness? nirvana is. So let it come. Every level. With the breath I am observing the passes away. People who are very The object keeps on changing. What is That is a very high stage, the nirvanic moment is nirvana for you. Whatever This causes another big discovery— truth at the surface level, at the crust angry, or are full of lust, full of fear or the object this moment may not be the stage. As long as we are in the field of is arising you are observing it—now it that you are not reacting to an outside level. This takes me to the subtler, full of depression or full of ego—when object the next moment. So whatever mind and matter, sensation is bound is passing away, now it arises. Bare object. Say I hear a sound and I find subtler, subtler levels. Within three they keep on observing their sensa- manifests itself from moment to to be there. But sensations will awareness. That will take you to the

that it is some kind of praise for me; or days the mind becomes so sharp, tions, the whole habit pattern changes. TOP PHOTO COURTESY JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN: RIGHT © SAYAGYI U BA KHIN, VIPASSANA TRUST OF MAS- moment, there is clarity. And there become subtler and subtler. stage where there is no more sensa-

46 W INTER 2000 TRICYCLE: T HE BUDDHIST REVIEW 47 tion, that is beyond mind and matter. somebody a successor will disturb the forty-day course—it is a really son is not fit for such deep operation. Wherever Buddha’s teaching went, it Sensations come where there is mind purity. Buddha never appointed any- deep operation of the mind, surgical Even multi-millionaires, even there is In this country now, traditional prac - went with love and and matter. And where there is no body as a successor. Who am I to operation of the mind. Deep-rooted one tices—like segregating men and compassion. So that tradition says mind and matter there is no horizon, appoint? All these five hundred or six complexes start coming to the billionaire who is pressing hard to take women, or variations on that theme— that here is a path which does not no passing, no sensation. But we can’t hundred teachers whom I have trained, surface, so every student must have a long course. I don’t give it to him. I are becoming part of a mix, a melting support violence or bloodshed. imagine it. The moment you start they will carry on. If I am not there the facility of privacy, a place to be say, No, you are not fit yet. pot. Some teachers welcome this chal- Now you come to this millennium imagining, then it becomes a philoso- they will still carry on. Not because without getting attracted to the lenge, but others are quite concerned conference that is going on. Again, phy. they have faith in the teacher—they object of passion. If somebody has There has been some concern about maintaining the purity of the according to Buddha’s teaching and Do you understand this practice to be have faith in the technique, which got passion, and the object of pas- that the idea of not allowing these various traditions. You are somewhat according to science, human science the essence of Buddha’s teaching? gives them results. That’s all that will sion is all the time there, then it people into long courses is that they renowned for taking a strict view of and the reality that we face, we want Yes. If proper attention is not given to remain. Otherwise they think so long as might create a few difficulties. It has would act inappropriately. maintaining the integrity of each peace in human society. Certainly the sensations, then we are not going guru is there you get all of the bene - created difficulties sometimes even No, no, no! Anybody can act in a lineage. everybody, Buddhist or non-Buddhist, to the deepest levels of the mind. The fits—guru is no more, it is gone: That in ten-day courses. You have to be wrong way. If we separate people it is Ultimately you have to take one wants this. But how can there be decision. You want water, peace in society unless there is peace you dig ten feet, don’t in the individual? If the individual is get water, a different ten boiling, agitated all the time, there is feet, you keep on digging no peace. And you expect the entire in different places. Some society to be peaceful? To me it is day you must be sure I unsound. Doesn’t sound logical. will get water here, then dig, come to that stage. I Is it helpful to not use the word don’t say only remain “,” so it can become some- with me. You try, and thing for everyone? whichever path seems These are two words I have avoided in more compatible to your the last thirty-one years. In the thirty- ideology, your thinking, one years since I started teaching I go ahead. I don’t con- avoid using the word “Buddhism.” I deepest level of the mind, according is a personality cult. The technique is very careful. for their good, not for segregation, or demn. never use the word “religion,” so far as to Buddha, is constantly in contact so great. It will survive. Don’t worry I don’t know how this wrong thing denouncing them, saying: “Oh you’re Buddha’s teaching is concerned. For me with body sensations. And you find [laughs]. I am very confident. It will started. There are teachers who are not good, so I keep you separate.” It In another example of traditions Buddha never established a religion. this by experience. survive. lesbians and homosexuals in this coun- is for everyone! coming together, the peace summit Buddha never taught Buddhism. try and in Europe. Where there are that you’re attending at the U.N. this Buddha never made a single person a What is your role as the teacher? I wanted to ask you about facilities I teach them. When they go Is it true that homosexuals week is bringing world religious Buddhist. A teacher, out of compassion and criticisms in this country, specifically to a center where there’s not much have to renounce their sexual leaders together to make a decla- Everybody will agree that every reli - love, seeing that somebody is suffer- about your organization’s reported facility and they say, I was refused orientation in order to take the longer ration committing themselves to gion of the world has got these com- ing, gives a path. But each individual refusal to allow there, so they write letters and say courses? global peace. What’s your outlook? mon factors, which I call the inner core has to walk on the path. There is no homosexuals to participate in something bad about the teaching. Totally wrong. Of course we Any cause for optimism? When we of religion—morality, mastery of the magical miracle with the teacher. advanced retreats. They can’t understand. What about examine every person whether look at Asia, we look at Burma, Sri mind, purification of mind. So I say this Totally out of the question. He only I don’t know how somebody started the lesbian or not-lesbian, homosexual or Lanka, such violence and suffering in is the core, the wholesome core of shows the path. That is the only role this talk, which is, I can say very con - facilities we are giving them? Just not. If you are still a bundle of lust these Buddhist countries—how can we every religion. And then there’s the of the teacher, nothing else. fidently, totally wrong. We have no because one or two started and you can’t control yourself so you use our practice for peace? outer shell. discrimination of any kind with any- complaining because they were can’t do a deeper operation of the In centuries of Buddha’s teaching The outer shell differs from one You’ve built this worldwide body. It is totally out of the ques - refused—and there are other reasons mind, wait a little, take a there is not a single incident where the to the other. Let everyone be happy organization, and it seems that you tion. But of course when you go for also for refusing. I have refused those few more courses. That is what we followers of Buddha were involved in with their rites, rituals—but they don’t have a successor. deeper courses—twenty-day course, who are not homosexuals, who are not tell everybody. Not because someone any kind of bloodshed in the name of should not forget this inner core. © CHRIS DINERMAN So many are coming up, and to appoint thirty-day course, lesbians. Because at present this per- © CHRIS DINERMAN is a homosexual. propagating Buddha’s teachings. If they forget this and say, I am a

48 W INTER 2000 TRICYCLE: T HE BUDDHIST REVIEW 49 religious person because I have done detached and yet very strong. People a follower of Buddha. It’s a real differ - this rite, they are deluding themselves, feel that only with attachment I can ence. You have great devotion they are deluding others. gain my goal. But when they under- towards Buddha, you say, “Lord stand and they practice, a detached Buddha, Lord Buddha, how wonderful!” In terms of this sense of interior person is more successful to reach But you don’t practice. Whether we peace: There’s a fear in this culture their goal. Because the mind is so keep calling ourselves Christian or that if you are very peaceful that calm, so clear. And whatever problem Hindu or Muslim, it makes no differ- you’re a little dead. We want to be comes you can make a quick decision, ence. A follower of the Buddha follows peaceful but cannot imagine how we a right decision. the teachings: sila, samadhi, prajna. can save the world, in terms of And the government is introducing Those people who simply call them- ecology, without being angry. We Vipassana into the police selves Buddhists are not living the life want to engage in life with those kinds academy. Even prisoners change. Hard of Buddha. That is why I don’t use the of passions. criminals. And every government word “Buddhist” or “Buddhism.” I recognize that. I am not against that. wants a prisoner to be reformed when Buddha never taught any isms. In all People have not understood the he comes to the prison. Instead of his words, and the commentaries, Buddha’s teaching properly. Say a per- that it is a house of crime, where you which number thousands of pages, the son comes to harm me, and I say, “I am discuss what kind of crime, and how word “Buddhism” is not there. So this a Vipassana meditator, like a vegetable, you did it. They learn much more, and all started much later, when Buddha’s come and cut me”—that is not come out as bigger criminals. Now teaching began to settle. Buddha’s teaching. We will take with Vipassana there is a big change. I don’t know when it started, how it strongest action wherever necessary, And that is not by giving discourses, started, calling it Buddhism, but the strongest physical and vocal action. giving praises of Buddha. It is by tech - day it happened it devalued the teach- But before doing that we must nique, when they start observing. ing of Buddha. It was a universal examine ourselves at the physical Living in the prison, most of the teaching, and that made it sectarian, level, at the sensation level, and the students have anger: So-and-so gave as if to say that Buddhism is only for mental level. If I find my mind is very witness against me, when I get out I’ll Buddhists, like Hinduism is for Hindus, equanimous, I’ve got no anger kill him. Revenge. When they start Islam is for Muslims. is for all. ▼ towards this person. I’ve got love observing, “Oh, what am I doing? I’m towards this person. But because this burning myself,” it goes away. With person does not understand soft lan- the other way this person will create guage, I’ve got to use hard language. more and more violence. Now he can’t He does not understand soft action, I do that. He’s full of love, full of com - will take hard action. In his interest, in passion. her interest. Love is there. And the person becomes so active. A Compassion is there. If there is anger, number of hard criminals when they then I’m miserable. How can a miser- come out, they get jobs here and able person help another miserable there and they don’t return. person? This question requires a lot of clarifi - Do you think in the Buddhist societies cation, because this question keeps today, where coming up. That if you are not angry, violence is being carried out, how will we be able to defend our- are they functioning with this selves? If we are not angry, how will be detachment or no? able to be successful in this way or If somebody says they are a Buddhist that way? That is because people have and that is all they do, then I say you not lived a life where they are are a devotee of Buddha, you are not

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