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Conversations on Non-Duality Non-Duality Chapters start-13 15/2/11 10:04 Page 2
‘Conversations on Non-Duality: Twenty Six Awakenings’ first published in Great Britain in 2011 by Cherry Red Books (a division of Cherry Red Records Ltd), Power Road Studios, 114 Power Road, Chiswick, London W4 5PY
Copyright © Conscious TV 2011
ISBN: 978 1 901447 67 5
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording or any information storage and retrieval system, without written permission from the publisher.
This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, resold, hired out or otherwise circulated without the publisher’s prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.
The author asserts the moral right to be identified as the author of this work.
Design by Dave Johnson Cover by Errol Fuller Printed in the UK. Non-Duality Chapters start-13 15/2/11 10:04 Page 3
Conversations on Non-Duality
TWENTY-SIX AWAKENINGS
Edited by Eleonora Gilbert
CHERRY RED BOOKS Non-Duality Chapters start-13 15/2/11 10:04 Page 4
Table of Contents
INTRODUCTIONS BY: Iain McNay ...... 6 Eleonora Gilbert ...... 8 Conscious.tv – the idea ...... 9
INTERVIEWS: Richard Sylvester I Hope You Die Soon ...... 13 Jeff Foster Life Without A Centre ...... 27 Roger Linden The Elusive Obvious ...... 41 Rupert Spira The Transparency of Things, Parts 1 & 2 ...... 53 Halina Pytlasinska Non-Duality ...... 70 Catherine Noyce The Experience of Non-Duality ...... 82 Tony Parsons The Open Secret ...... 94 Richard Lang Seeing Who You Really Are ...... 110 David Bingham Non-Dual Pointing, Parts 1 & 2 ...... 125 Genpo Roshi Path of the Human Being ...... 153 Mandi Solk The Joy of No Self ...... 171 Pamela Wilson Loving Mystery ...... 184 Florian Schlosser Meeting Truth ...... 198 Mooji Before I Am ...... 219 Non-Duality Chapters start-13 15/2/11 10:04 Page 5
Daniel Brown The Great Way ...... 234 Francis Lucille The Art of Not Expecting ...... 250 Gangaji The End of the Story ...... 261 Bernie Prior Spiritual Human Evolution ...... 276 Steve Ford An Invitation To Being ...... 290 Peter Fenner Awakening Unconditioned Awareness ...... 302 Wayne Liquorman Never Mind ...... 314 Katie Davis Awake Joy ...... 328 Sundance Burke Free Spirit ...... 341 Jac O’Keeffe Born To Be Free ...... 353 Suzanne Foxton No Body In Particular ...... 370 James Swartz How To Attain Enlightenment ...... 385
Useful websites ...... 402
Audio downloads ...... 403 Non-Duality Chapters start-13 15/2/11 10:04 Page 6
Introduction by Iain McNay
I am sure that virtually everyone drawn to this book can remember the first time they realised that life was not quite what it seemed: that reality didn’t actually appear to be the way it was presented by everyone else. For some of us this will have been a gradual process; for others a significant event or an experience, or a realisation that challenged what we had been taught to believe. This can be exciting, but it can also be frightening, even quite terrifying. Structures fall away, beliefs are no longer credible and life is experienced in a radically different way.
This book is made up of a series of interviews on Non-Duality made for Conscious.TV over a two year period between 2007 and 2009. They are presented in the order in which they were conducted. Either I or my wife Renate did all the interviews, and it was a quite fascinating process for both for us. We started with Jeff Foster and Richard Sylvester one Wednesday afternoon, and were not necessarily planning any more on this subject. But then we begun to receive some very positive feedback: there was obviously a hunger for more of the same and as we were also very interested in Non- Duality, we gradually added to the category. During the course of these interviews we have met some fascinating people and have learnt and experienced a lot. The idea of a book came up subsequently, and our friend and fellow Conscious.TV volunteer Eleonora has developed the idea to this, its final realisation. Many thanks to her for her sterling work, this book would never have happened without her.
Renate and I were always interested in making the most of the interviews. We wanted to get to know the interviewees as people, as much as possible, as well as finding out about the state they were living in. We weren’t really interested in theories and always tried to steer away from that wherever possible. We were primarily interested in how they experienced their life, what it was like to be them, and then in conveying that as accessibly as possible for others to hear. Everyone has a ‘story’ which, though part of the picture, isn’t fundamentally who they are, and we didn’t want to ignore either perspective. Conscious.TV is an ongoing adventure for Renate, Eleonora and myself. Maybe there will be another volume of transcripts in the future; we will have to see the response to this one first. Meanwhile, may you enjoy the book! We got so much out of doing these interviews, and we hope you will too in reading them.
Iain McNay Oxfordshire, UK 2011
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A word from the editor, Eleonora Gilbert
In Stephen Levine’s book Embracing the Beloved he writes: “The only service you can do for anyone is remind them of their true heart.” The interviews set out in this book are very much about this service. Reminding us all of what our true heart is, of what we truly are and helping us to know intimately that That, which is reading these words, is what we have been searching for.
The process of putting this book together, reading the manuscript many times over and absorbing the gems present in each chapter, has demystified the many ideas I have collected along my spiritual path about what enlightenment is. It has taken me deeper into the understanding of the nature of all things and has left me in awe of this constant, unstoppable, dynamic and creative force manifesting through everything. Enlightenment is not the end point, and the realisation of this enables me to live not in hope for a better ‘me’, one-day-when-I-will-be-enlightened, but to fully embrace what arises right here, right now, moment by moment and most of all just to own my ‘humanity’.
The production of this book is a true labour of love. It has taken the skills, love and personal interest of many people. I particularly want to thank the transcribers Craig Hindmarsh, Frances Phillips, Kate Crosby and Lisa Morgan- Davies. Many thanks to Rose Youd for her proofreading and expert advice which went beyond the call of duty and also to Errol Fuller and Nick Owen for all the help freely offered throughout this project.
Eleonora Gilbert Buckinghamshire, UK 2011
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Conscious.tv – the idea
It was approaching midnight on the 31st December 2006. My wife Renate and I were celebrating New Year’s Eve on the island of La Gomera, in the Canary Islands. As usual, she was drinking champagne and I was sipping my glass of mineral water. I had recently reached my 60th birthday and we were having a lively discussion about the things that we hadn’t yet done in our lives that we would still like to do.
“It would be great to have a TV station,” I pronounced. “I could combine all my interests: consciousness, football, music, hiking, make some new programmes and broadcast some existing ones. We can get literally hundreds of channels on our TV at home and they are nearly all rubbish. I am sure I can do much better than that,” I declared.
It was of course true that I had no experience in television at all but on the other hand I had built a successful record label and music publishing company and I had never known anything about music. I couldn’t play any musical instruments and certainly couldn't read music. But I knew what I liked and trusted my instincts. I had hired good people to work for me. I had learnt that if I couldn’t do something then I had to find someone good who could complement me. “It can’t be that hard to make decent, interesting television programmes” I added. I thought about it some more. “I could easily come up with plenty of programmes. I could start a satellite channel in the UK, I am sure people would watch it.” The mineral water was beginning to talk enthusiastically.
The next day we hiked into the hills behind the hotel where we were staying. Something was definitely brewing in me. The more I thought about the idea, the more I liked it. Soon after we arrived back in England I made some enquires and discovered that to start a proper Satellite channel was going to cost getting on for £500,000 a year and that was just to rent the satellite space and the programme listing space. It didn't include the cost of making any programme, or the overhead costs. That was definitely a step too far. I also talked over the idea with various friends; they thought combining all my different interests wasn’t going to work. “The channel would be too diverse, you would confuse people,” most of them commented. “Why don’t you focus on the consciousness side? No one else is doing that and there is plenty of football and music on TV already.” Life went on, but the idea lingered and often surfaced in my mind. I lowered my sights a little. Maybe I could piggy back on someone else’s channel and just show a few hours of programmes a week. That seemed much more realistic. I found out that this was called a micro channel and other people were doing it. I had a few meetings but I still felt it was working out too expensive. I was happy to spend money, but I wanted to spend it effectively.
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It was now late in 2007 and Internet TV was just beginning to be established. By this time I had thought up a name, conscious.tv. I liked it, registered it and decided to make some programmes. I rang a few TV studios and couldn’t find anything under about £3,000 a day; and then, of course, there were editing costs afterwards. That was still too much. My music company had started in 1978 and was born out of the first wave of punk music. Punk was a revolution; it quickly turned a boring stagnant music industry upside down. It wasn’t just about the music, it was also about the way the music was sold, promoted and marketed. Records that cost very little to make started to sell in decent quantities. People were ready for something new. The music industry was stuck in a groove and needed a kick. I felt television was the same. People were spending fortunes making programmes that just weren’t very good, in my eyes anyway. Persisting, I found a TV studio in Acton, in West London that would do me a deal for a day and they would record the programmes as if they were live and I could pretty much walk out with the finished programmes. This was more like it. This was what I was used to. Something that was more instant.
On 2nd November 2007 I made four programmes. I was the interviewer as I didn't have anyone else to do it. None of the programmes were very good (and I have taken them all down now). But I was determined to learn fast. Three weeks later I was back in the studio for another full day of making programmes. I had coached myself and was much better as an interviewer this time and I felt I was getting somewhere. And I had also remembered a spiritual retreat that I had attended a few months earlier. We had spent four days listening to everyone else’s life stories. That was seventy stories in four days. It was an extraordinarily powerful few days. I had known all those people for twelve or thirteen years and to hear the detail of their lives was a revelation. It was very moving and touching at times.
I realised that with conscious.tv I wanted to create something similar. I wanted people to learn, to be stimulated, to be encouraged and to be touched. I was also enjoying the challenge. I liked creating something from nothing and seeing where it could go. I would book the studio for an eight hour day, 11.00am to 7.00pm and then invite five or six people to interview. To start with it was mainly friends and people I already knew as I didn’t feel confident enough yet to invite people I hadn’t met. Conscious.tv was a free service and I wasn’t in a position to pay any fees or expenses, so I was really asking people to take part in an experiment in a new form of TV, making programmes cheaply that were for a niche viewing audience. Having said that, I felt technically the programmes were reasonable enough. We had three cameras in a proper studio and the director would switch from one to the other so it gave the feel of a proper programme, which of course it was. I was learning a lot, and fast.
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By April 2008 I felt I had enough interviews to launch the channel on the Internet. People’s response was slow to start with, but I wasn’t going to do any marketing as such. The phrase ‘build it and they will come’ was rooted in me. I felt what I was doing was interesting and different. The word would slowly get out there. For the first few months I didn’t even check how many people were viewing the programmes. I didn’t want to depress myself if they were very low. I just wanted to keep going. I was enjoying the project and felt the programmes were getting better and better. And then four months or so after we started, three e-mails came in one week from people I didn’t know who had found the channel and enjoyed it. Something was starting to happen.
Around this time I was talking with an old friend, Kate Parker, “You should make some programmes on Non-Duality” she suggested. “You should talk to Julian Noyce at Non-Duality Press, he’ll have some idea of who, amongst the authors that he publishes, might be willing to be interviewed.”
I called Julian and explained my idea. “Hmmmmm” he mused for several seconds before suggesting Jeff Foster and Richard Sylvester. And so Jeff and Richard came along to the studio in Acton one afternoon and the Non-Duality section was born. Within a few months it became the most popular section. Renate started to help me by doing some interviews herself. People seemed to like our style, something was now quickly building. We were soon receiving e-mails daily from people who had suggestions of people to interview or indeed, people who wanted to be interviewed themselves. Although our interview style may look casual, we actually do a fair amount research for most of our interviews, and that takes time. We quickly learnt that we needed to be pretty selective about who appears on conscious.tv. We soon decided the solution was simply to only interview people we personally find interesting. People would sometimes object, “You should interview so and so; lots of people will watch it. You will find more viewers.” But we weren’t to be swayed. Conscious.tv is an integral part of our own personal journey and all the interviews in this book have been important for us.
As I write this now at the beginning of 2011, more than two years later we have made over 200 programmes. Apart from being available on www.conscious.tv all the programmes are available on YouTube and we now get thousands of programmes watched each day on the Internet. We also have our micro channel on Satellite TV in the UK with programmes broadcast daily. Our adventure is ongoing, and while we still enjoy it we will continue.
Iain McNay Oxfordshire, UK 2011
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BEFORE I AM MOOJI
Mooji
Before I Am
INTERVIEW BY IAIN MCNAY
Iain: We do respond a lot on Conscious TV to emails we get in and letters from people saying we’d really like to see you interview so-and-so, and Mooji’s name has come up frequently over the last few months. So we finally tracked him down – he’s now back in England for a time – and we think we’re very lucky to have you here in the studio, Mooji. Mooji: Oh, thank you. Iain: So you have a book out, Before I Am, which has, I think, just been released. I haven’t actually met you before but I’ve had a little look at your book the last few evenings. And I’d like to start, if we can, just looking a little bit at your life and how you got to be where you are, I guess. So I know you originally came from Jamaica and then when you were fifteen you moved to England. Mooji: Sixteen. Iain: Sixteen, yes. So what was the reason you moved to England? Mooji: Well, my mother had been living in England since I was a baby. I did not really know her. I had no memory or experience of her. She left when I was very young. I met her only when I was sixteen. She wanted me to join her in England. Iain: Right. Mooji: I joined her after my father died. She came back into the focus somehow and we began to write to each other and at some point she mentioned, “I would like you to come and live with me in England.” It was
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very exciting; [laughing] the idea of leaving Jamaica. Iain: Because England’s such a different country, different culture, isn’t it? Mooji: Yes, yes. Many people, particularly from Port Antonio, the place where I’m from in Jamaica, tend to come to England... I don’t know why. Most Jamaicans, at least in those days, tended more to travel to America, you know. But from Portland, they head for England. I think more Portlanders joined the British Army during the war years, so afterwards they wanted to come to the mother country. They imagined they would be greatly welcomed [laughing]. Iain: And you came from a big family? Mooji: Big family, yes. Iain: So when you got to England, what were your impressions to start with? Mooji: Ooh. Well, the first time I came to England was actually the first time I flew on an airplane. I travelled with my mother. When we arrived, immigration stopped me from entering the country as I did not have an entry permit. We were very naive about these things. They took me to a detention centre, locked me in a cell overnight and, early next day, put me on a flight straight back to Jamaica. Iain: They sent you back? Mooji: Yes, yes [laughing]. Iain: Gosh. Mooji: It’s been a good life experience for me. I have to say this because, ever since then, whenever and wherever I travel, I never assume I will be allowed in. There is a sort of humility in that, you know, and I am grateful for this. Sometimes I see people who are visitors to a new country, standing in the immigration queue tapping their feet impatiently, like they have the right to enter at will. I never assume I will get past immigration, even when entering Jamaica [laughing]. Iain: But you also learned from the experience too. Mooji: Yes. Iain: It had a value. Mooji: I think so. Iain: And what kind of work did you do originally, when you got to England? Mooji: I went almost immediately to school and then college. My life adjusted quite quickly to living in England, because my mother belongs to a church community who were very loving, very accommodating. Their welcome cushioned my landing quite a bit. A new arrival would quickly be surrounded by a lot of people who wanted to see and take care of them, so I felt really fortunate from that point onwards. I always made friends quickly, and so within a week or two there were already new pals, you know. It was very easy. Iain: So you felt accepted somehow? Mooji: Immediately. Not like the first time [laughing]. The second time – yes,
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yes. When I met the group from the church and the community, everything became easy. Iain: And you felt at home in the church? Mooji: Yes, yes. More because of the social atmosphere and genuine warmth of the members there. The people are very open, very friendly and very approachable. Iain: But did you believe in God as such? Mooji: I would say almost everyone growing up in Jamaica believes in God some place within themselves, you know. It is a very easy... a very easy way of being... Even this question, “Do you believe in God?”, would be almost unheard of in Jamaica. It’s almost an assumption that you do [laughing]. Iain: So it’s part of the ingrained culture that you believe in God, yes. Mooji: I don’t feel that this is hammered into us; we just grew up with that. The first church we attended was just behind my house, so it felt it’s just a part of our backyard you know. Iain: And then, I think I was reading in your biography, at thirty-two years old you had an encounter with a Christian mystic and something significant happened that changed the way you see things. Mooji: Yes. I refer to him as a mystic, but he doesn’t refer to himself as this, you know. He was a young man who, it seemed to me, just appeared out of nowhere. I was at that time preparing for an open art exhibition at a local gallery. After returning home one day, my friend greeted me, “Someone came by today wanting to know who made the stained glass in the front window. I told him about you and he asked if he could come and meet you. I think he said he also makes glass work.” So that was the way in which he was introduced to me. As soon as we met, there was this relaxed feeling between us. He was very straightforward for, within minutes of meeting, he told me he was a Christian who worshipped with friends in his room in a nearby house. Strangely, this was not felt as any pressure from him. It just felt like that was important for him to tell me somehow. If you live in Brixton, you’re used to people knocking on your door, Jehovah’s witnesses, people like this, you know. But my meeting with him was very different from the usual flow of uninvited visitors; he felt like a friend. I found that, in his presence, many questions began coming up in my mind; questions about the nature of life, the world and God. I can’t remember any specific ones right now, but what stands out is that he answered each question I presented with clarity, authority and love. I would look forward to his visits – which, by the way, were never arranged. Whenever I needed some advice, he would somehow show up, as if by chance. He always felt very near and accessible.
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Early one Sunday evening, Michael and another friend dropped by and we, including my girlfriend, had a beautiful evening discussing spiritual matters. I felt very happy in this warm and elevated company. As the friends were about to leave, I asked, “Michael, when you... when you pray again, please pray for me.” I felt the words just flowing out of my mouth like I wasn’t really alone in saying them... something else was assisting. He answered, “Sure, why not now?” Such was his way. I said, “OK”, and stood up in anticipation. Many Jamaicans are accustomed to having others pray on their behalf. Michael placed his hands on my head and began his prayer. As it ended, I found myself asking, “Please help me, please guide me too” – something like this came out, and that was it. We hugged each other and he left. I felt very happy, very, very happy [laughing], but also suddenly tired. Shortly after this, I went to bed and fell into a deep dreamless sleep. I often recall this moment because it was a real turning point for my life. From that moment a new chapter began unfolding. Iain: So what changed in your life after that? Mooji: I woke up next morning and it was like a dimmer switch of sensitivity was turned up to ‘high’ setting. I was lying in bed, quietly noticing the sunlight pouring through a split in the curtains. It was as if I was seeing the sun for the first time... My heart was full of joy. There was a sweetness about everything that morning. Iain: So you were more aware of...? Mooji: It felt like a tingly awareness was bubbling through my entire body and mind. Iain: A tingly awareness... Mooji: Yes, of just being, of... a deep sense of happiness, of lightness in my body, you know. I remember this distinctly, how the sunlight was slowly sliding across the room. I don’t know what in particular I was noticing; it was more a feeling of inner aliveness and joy, like I was simultaneously seeing outside and inside. I felt extremely happy. An urge arose to go walking, which is not something I’d been doing for a while. As I walked out into the street, everything opened up into a magnified state of joyfulness; it was very noticeable. I didn’t want this feeling, or this day, to end. I kept walking, feeling a little light-headed and full to the brim with joy. I spent the entire day alone. That night, I resisted going to bed, for I was so happy. My body was full of energy. But eventually sleep came. Morning came, but the feeling inside was as bright as the day before. I felt as though I was the most fortunate person in the world but no one knew of it. Within a few days, a deep peace arose inside, and that has remained to this day. My whole outlook was now undergoing radical change. The sense of ever-
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expanding presence inside me was the unbroken experience. I could see that most people were missing this conscious inner contact with the divine. Everyone I knew and saw suddenly looked distant, as though they were lost inside themselves. I was not really analysing life so much. It was all just being felt, an insight, at this stage; not thought. Iain: Were you surprised that was happening, or did it just feel like a natural process to you? Mooji: I didn’t feel surprised – I felt grateful and very happy, joyful. It felt completely right somehow, natural, you know. But I felt very, very fortunate [laughing]. It was like this: my heart was somehow full of the joy of spring. Iain: So how different, in practical terms, from the Mooji we know? Mooji: I don’t know. I was never much of a thinker. Something immense was happening... different from anything I had ever experienced – incomparable. It felt like something had moved in, a powerful presence, and the feeling arose quickly in me to call this God, you see. Iain: It almost felt like an external presence had...? Mooji: No, I didn’t feel it as external – it was very, very much sitting inside this frame [gesturing to self]. It didn’t feel like I was being invaded – it just felt like my being was being turned up full power on every level. I knew it was nothing to do with any effort or imagination on my part. I took it to be grace, good fortune. I felt very blessed, and then immediately began to relate to this presence as God, you know. This is how it felt for me. Iain: Because you say... I think you say, in the chapter in your book that’s biographical, that people realised that something different had happened to you and they were quite surprised. Not surprised, but they saw that you were a different person in one way. It was obviously noticeable to people. Mooji: Many people, students and strangers, were responding to the presence consciously or unconsciously. I could detect this intuitively, but others who were in regular contact with me, some family and friends, were showing signs of discomfort around me, for they couldn’t come to terms with what had happened. They often imagined or interpreted the worse; I could pick it up straightaway. Iain: So they found it uncomfortable? Mooji: Yes, some felt uncomfortable, but not everyone. The girlfriend who was with me from the very beginning was very supportive and very present; this is her nature. However, others initially tried to discourage me, place doubt inside my mind. But I was too far gone [laughing]. Iain: [laughing] People have suspicious minds, don’t they? Mooji: Yes, you know, almost as though they felt threatened by it. I don’t know why because I was mostly very quiet... shy even. I wasn’t preaching at anyone. On the contrary, I very much wanted to be alone.
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Iain: It says in your biography that some miracles started to occur around this time. Mooji: Some things appeared out of the ordinary field of my experience. What was taking place was simply, unmistakably uncommon. The sheer awesomeness of it was felt unavoidably inside my being, and it was affecting some people and their movements around me. I realised that some people – I would rather call them beings – could notice and feel the presence of this power or the power of the presence... somehow. It clearly was having an effect on my surroundings. I don’t often talk about it, though many are interested to hear such reports, but what was clear is that none of it was my doing. I felt my mind and body was being spring–cleaned, and I was being made aware of how totally whatever happens here [gesturing to chest] affects what’s happening around me. That was clear, you know; unquestionable. That was clear for me. Iain: Then you had this period – I think, six years – where you... Because before that you were a street painter, then you were making stained glass, then you removed yourself – is that correct? Mooji: I was teaching. Iain: You were teaching too? Mooji: Yes, I was working as an art teacher in the local college. Yes. In spite of this tremendous change taking place internally, I continued teaching for a while, until it came to the point that I simply couldn’t go on. I quit the teaching job for real freedom. I was not a saver of money so, in a short time, I became penniless. Iain: And I think you went and stayed with your sister... Mooji: My sister, yes, yes. Iain: ...and she looked after you for a time. Mooji: My sister offered me a room in her flat. Iain: And what happened to you during that time internally? Was there a process going on? Mooji: Yes. I quickly realised I did not know ‘how’ to make decisions about anything to do with ‘holding life together’. I felt a natural urge to surrender myself to the will or whims of God. It was not such a challenge for me to take the attitude: “You know what is best, for it is you who has brought all of these things into my heart, so you better help me sort it out” [laughing]. It seemed to work somehow. I think God likes this kind of attitude. Iain: Yes. So it was a classic case of surrender, just saying whatever happens is going to happen. Did you feel that took courage, or was it just obvious that was the... Mooji: I thought, “I am being assisted anyway.” My feelings were changing to accommodate that kind of trust... it felt natural to trust. It was mostly easy for me, but not always.
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Iain: And then you were there six years or so, in what I would call this process of letting go? Mooji: Well, I have only little fragments of memory about this period in regard to practical things. I cannot really remember who I was in that time. Recollecting events is not an attribute here. There was no real schedule in my life after I finished teaching, so I was completely open and flexible as to how a day might unfold, you see. There were no real desires pulling my attention here and there – just a strong inner sense to throw everything into this fire somehow. It felt very exciting, not scary at all. I felt this urge to cast everything in a fire that burns everything to dust. Then, one moment, the light inside shone brightly and I found a stirring conviction – I walked out of my life. You know, it wasn’t difficult. I just threw everything into this experience, this abyss, you see, and said, “Whatever.” That was it. Iain: There’s a quote from you in the book about the time you were... you felt you “were seated in the lap of God”. Mooji: Yes, yes. Iain: That’s a wonderful way of describing it. Mooji: In some ways the feeling is still there [laughing]. Iain: I’m sure it is. Mooji: Yes, yes. Iain: And then, just to follow the story chronologically, you then in 1993 travelled to India. Mooji: Yes, I did. Iain: And what was your motivation for going there? Mooji: Well, what had happened is that... It was quite late in life, compared to many people, when I began reading books. I had only read two books. Iain: Really? Mooji: Yes [laughing]. One was The Pearl by John Steinbeck, because we had to perform it at school. The second was Eighty-eight Short Stories by Guy de Maupassant. I found this book on the table of the school library; I was fascinated by the strangeness of these stories. But apart from these, I was not drawn to reading. If you found me with a book, it would be one which had pictures in it. I like pictures, but I was not so accustomed to looking into words deeply. Sorry, where were we? Iain: We’re talking about the reason you went to India. Mooji: OK, and so there arose, in this new period in my life, a desire to learn more about these experiences, what they meant, what God wanted of me. There was an eagerness to move things on more rapidly. I was seeing Michael less and less. When I did, I would just empty out my questions in front of him and he would pacify my mind. One day, I went into one Christian bookshop, and it turned out to be a very
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powerful experience for me. It was as though I entered this space where all the words from all the books were screaming out in a mad chaos. It was like the sound of cold water being poured into a pan of burning oil. Iain: So all the words from the books were cascading on you somehow? Mooji: It was just like this, it was like all these words were screaming inside my head. And I just came out very quickly. I did not go into another bookshop for several years. Shortly after this, a wave of young Muslims were appearing in our town and they were giving away lots of their literature outside the tube station and along the high street. I was on fire for spiritual knowledge, and they were keen to satisfy my urge. However, fears began coming up in my mind. Iain: Fear came? Mooji: Fear came up very strongly that because I was somehow drawn… because there was some curiosity, some urge to look at what they, the Muslims, were offering, I might be straying from the teachings of Christ, as though they were not enough. You get these kinds of feelings if you are brought up in any evangelical religion. But the urge would not leave. I saw a book Christ in Islam... It felt less of a threat or betrayal for it mentioned Christ. I took the name of Christ, of God, and went for it [laughing]. As I read, all fears began disappearing. A small battle was won. Shortly afterwards, while in the West End of London, I discovered a small bookshop called Watkins. I was a bit hesitant, initially, after the memory of the first experience, but I went into the shop and I went down to the Indian section. I picked up the smallest book I could find, a book on self-enquiry by Sri Ramana Maharshi. I saw the picture of the sage on the cover and I really liked him but, as soon as I began reading the words, I had to put it down. It felt so noisy to me, because it was like I had to use my mind in a way I was unaccustomed to. I thought someone had mistakenly placed the wrong text inside this beautiful cover. Energetically, the two didn’t seem to belong together. Iain: [laughing] Yes. Mooji: So it was not the time to meet Ramana Maharshi. Instead, I found a book about the life of another sage – Sri Ramakrishna – and it was an instant attraction. This became the first book I ever bought of my own volition, The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. Iain: Right. Mooji: And this became my second Bible, in a way. I was reading this... I was eating it actually, I didn’t want it to finish, it was so full of everything I needed. The words of Ramakrishna were satisfying something deep inside, confirming that I was indeed on the right path. I was not alone. Years later, In 1993, I travelled to India with the sole intention to sit in Sri Ramakrishna’s room, perhaps on his very bed, as he – through his inspiring
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teachings and touching stories in this wonderful book – was the pull that drew me to this mysterious country. Iain: And you met some disciples out there who were followers of Papaji and you ended up going to visit Papaji? Mooji: As fate would have it, I ended up not going to Calcutta at all, where Ramakrishna lived and taught, but instead to meet Papaji who, until then, I knew nothing about. I knew nothing about sages, saints, gurus and the rest, but somehow I felt very blessed to have been brought to him. I felt like I was brought to him by the wishes or decree of the cosmos. Iain: And he said something to you, didn’t he, that gave you a bit of a jolt? Mooji: A big jolt [laughing]. Iain: What did he say to you? Mooji: I had sat in satsang for some months, listening and benefiting from everybody’s questions, and then it came a moment when I felt I wanted to put myself in front of him. So I spent a whole evening trying to construct a letter of introduction to him. I stated, as best as I could, an account of what had happened to me thus far. The moment came... He pulled out my letter and began reading. After a few words, he called me to come up in front of him. There was some shivering. Iain: So when you say shivering, you were uncertain... Mooji: The shivering started while I waited to see if he would pick up my letter. Iain: So you were a little nervous? Mooji: Very nervous. And then he called me. From the moment I stood up, something began falling away. I felt seized by fate, drawn towards the butcher’s bloc; a path I had watched others take before they entered themselves again. My knees began turning to water but, somehow, I made it across the sea of seekers to sit at his feet. Sometimes Papaji can just destroy your ego with a few playful remarks... a joke, or a simple turning away of his head. In my case it began with him poking fun at my name. It was a girl-name, Toni. The proper boy’s name is Tony. Amidst the roar of laughter, I tried to correct him, but I was missing the point. He continued reading, stopping here and there to make a comment. I began to feel a lot of resistance coming up inside. I tried to appear calm on the surface. Now anger and judgement joined in. There was a shock inside, a surprise that such resistance could be happening, such doubts, resentments, all coming in together to climax into a continuous ringing in my ears. Now I watched his lips moving but could hear no sound. My mind had now shut off, leaving only this boiling resentment towards Papaji. It was saying, “You are not my master. What gives you the right to talk to me like this? I would only accept such words from Ramana himself” [laughing]. However, something did filter through... Somewhere inside my being I heard
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him say, “If you wish to discover the truth fully, you must vanish, you must disappear altogether.” That did something inside; it shuffled me up completely. I felt very angry and disrespected. All of this stuff erupted inside. It was hell. Iain: So you felt he hadn’t seen you as such? Mooji: No, it wasn’t this. I guess I had imagined he would put a plaster on my hand and rub my cheeks but, instead, he pushed a sword deep into my solar plexus. I was in complete shock and disarray. Iain: [laughs] Mooji: [laughing] I was exploding! I tried to look really calm outwardly, as I didn’t want to lose face, but I was a complete wreck inside. I felt full of noise. After satsang was over I just wanted to go home, pack my bags and get as far away from Papaji as I could. I felt in my heart it was time to leave this place. This was my cue to leave Lucknow and move on. And so I went home and furiously started packing my belongings. It was an extremely hot day – or maybe it only felt like this to me – so I went out for some fresh air, walking some two hundred metres or so to the nearby shops. I sat there under a tree, cooling off. I still felt shuffled up inside somehow. The rage seemed to lessen a little, and I started off home to finish packing. I had walked perhaps twenty metres or so when suddenly... this huge cloud of anger and frustration, shame and confusion, vanished. For some time, how long I couldn’t say, I could not find myself. There was simply no reference or memory of ever being a ‘me’. I could see the body but I knew it wasn’t ‘me’. There was just space. Iain: You could not find yourself? Mooji: My body was there but that was not what I was looking for. I could not find a reference on to which I could hang something about who I am. I was nameless and formless. There was just an infinite expanse. Before meeting Papaji, my life was full of bliss, space and beautiful insight; it’s there now also. That was my continuous experience. Occasionally, I would experience a falling through into emptiness but, in that moment in India Nagar, I did not exist. Nothing existed. A panic arose but quickly blew away, leaving this unending expanse. And then a great love of Papaji arose in that space. In an instant I realised that, until then, I had not opened my heart to fully love him. Everything vanished. I began running towards his house like a child eager to be with its parents. There was a feeling that my feet were not touching the ground [laughing]. Iain: [laughing] And what did you say when you saw him in the house? Mooji: I didn’t get in. When I arrived, people were waiting to go into his house and I don’t remember what else happened. I went home knowing I was not going to leave. I could not leave. I stayed on in Lucknow to sit at his feet.
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I was in love with him, in love with being. There was nowhere else. I don’t know how to describe these things. Iain: And then what finally did take you away from India… because you had the tragedy with your son, he died... Mooji: Yes, yes. With Papaji’s blessings, I left Lucknow, a few days before my fortieth birthday, and travelled to Ramana Ashram in the south of the country. I spent a few months there. I returned in March to Lucknow to be with Papaji once again but, within a week of being there, I got news that my eldest son had suddenly passed away. I returned to London immediately. Iain: How was that when you heard that news? Mooji: [sighing] There was a sort of reflex action. In a flash it was like I was skinless, but just for a short while and that also went. It’s like a reaction from the past, or something happened and then somehow it was all OK again, all returning to space. I found that whatever was necessary moved in action and took care of what needed to be done. I felt a very strong assistance in everything that unfolded since then. I returned to London and buried my son and reassured my other two children that this was only his body, not his being. It was like this. There was not a sense of regret at what had happened. My mind and heart was rooted in awareness. My head remained at Papaji’s feet. Iain: No, I understand what you are saying. Mooji: I know some people may be shocked by what I am going to say but it is the truth. I never held the feeling that my son died too young or too early. Such sentiments were far from my mind and it remains like this to this day. Destiny, I felt, is the god of human life. Iain: And then you were in England? Mooji: I stayed in England, yes. Iain: And what happened next? Mooji: Well, somehow the sense of any kind of control or motivation arising from any projection or intention had weakened, so much that my mind remained in a state of effortless being. My attitude was that whatever happens, happens. I found myself selling incense in the local marketplace. I did this for some time. It felt good. Then in 1997, someone invited me to return to India and offered to pay my fare. I had little money at that time, so I went there and enjoyed the chance to be with Papaji once again. I spent several months at his feet before returning to London. A month after returning, I received news Papaji had left the body. Again, that event had the same effect as my son’s passing. Papaji has not gone anywhere but was still inside me. Iain: And so you started to teach or give talks? How did your new work evolve? Mooji: There was no such intention to begin with. I continued working on the street selling incense in the market in Electric Avenue, Brixton. I used to move about freely, carrying my bag of incense and my bell, calling out,
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“Incense, incense.” I felt very happy and free. Later, when the police kept moving us – street traders – I found a space in front of a shop where I could sell my wares safe from the arms of the law. I used to write sayings from around the world, whatever touched my heart, including some of my own thoughts, and cut them into little strips. I would then roll them around the wooden end of empty incense sticks and slide them into drinking straws which I took from McDonalds (I shouldn’t be saying this [laughing]!). I would cut the straws into small pieces, just long enough to hold the sayings in place. Many people liked to ask for a ‘thought for the day’. They became very popular and also helped me sell incense. Some people began coming to me for advice as a result of reading these messages. Iain: Thought for the day? Mooji: Yes. I had a bag full of these... thousands I’d make. Whenever someone would ask for incense, I would ask, “Would you like a thought for the day?” And they would put their hand inside the bag and take a saying. Iain: Oh right. Mooji: And it just took off; people loved it, you see. Wherever I went, I carried my bag of thoughts. Some conversations would arise and lead into a deeper exploration of truth, and so I discovered satsang was happening. It all started like this... very soft. Iain: And I think, just what I picked up from your book, you encourage something called ‘self-enquiry’ now – is that correct? Mooji: Yes. Iain: So what is self-enquiry? Mooji: It is the simplest way. Self-enquiry is like looking into a mirror to see what you have been overlooking. The simplicity of pure being somehow gets eclipsed by our fascination with our conditioning, thoughts, imagination and projections – which amounts to what I call distraction. Self-enquiry exposes what is not true, the personal identity, and in dispelling what is not true, what is unquestionably true – the Self – is revealed in that instant. Iain: Yes, yes. Mooji: And it’s funny because, as you know, it all started off, as I explained earlier, with the book of Ramana Maharshi’s on self-enquiry and how repulsed I was by this initial contact. How strange that now some inscrutable force has so firmly placed this understanding inside my heart! I call it grace. Some people are not used to this type of language but, for me, I have to say that it was revealed inside this heart through grace – this power to reveal truth through enquiry or self-investigation. For one such as I, coming as I do from such an intellectually naive background, I testify to the power of grace... what else? And so it has become one of the ways I interact with those who seek truth. But there are other paths to the same truth... The path of devotion and
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surrender is suitable to others whose temperament does not lean toward enquiry. My being includes all ways, for they all empty themselves in the one nameless ocean. Self-enquiry is suited to those whose temperament leans towards the intellect, or philosophy. Iain: Stronger in the mind? Mooji: Yes, yes. Iain: Because it seems to me… I guess we would say you found your freedom. I’m not trying to categorise, but we could say your freedom did not come through any deliberate process: something just happened when you were talking with... I forget the guy’s name... Mooji: Michael. Iain: Yes, that’s right, Michael – when you were talking with Michael. And it happened in a fairly simple way. But from what you’ve suggested to me, you have a relatively simple mind, not a complex mind. And, of course, so many of us in the west have complicated minds… And you feel this process of self- enquiry can help people to find their freedom? Mooji: It clearly has and continues to do this, because I had no intention to interact with people through this process of self-enquiry. By myself, I would not have felt any authority or courage as, naturally, I don’t feel such confidence with expressing ideas. If someone were to suggest that in a few short years I would develop such a way of communication, it would have seemed completely ridiculous to me. I felt that self-enquiry was the path to truth for those people who struggled with trust, surrender or devotion. The enquiry became a way – their way – into the same truth. It is the same recognition as those who realise truth through devotion. One thing I remember... a prayer, held deep inside my heart; and that is, if I am going to be free from the hypnosis of my own conditioning, I don’t want freedom just for me. A door had to be open for as many to pass through as were ready to enter truth. I feel self-enquiry arose here to fulfil this wish. Iain: You know, something that’s always in the back of my mind is that, because there’s such interconnectedness between all of us, can one person, I wonder, be completely free, when the rest of us are not free, as we’re all essentially one... one cosmos in a way? And I wonder, do you sometimes feel in yourself this... I don’t mean to say people are holding you back, I don’t mean it that way, but do you sometimes feel there’s more of a way to go somehow, which can only happen when we all are open to this process? Mooji: I don’t know if it’s down to us to be open: something must be already moving there. I don’t feel that there’s really an ‘us’ in the way that we imagine to initiate and move towards truth in all its fullness. I feel it’s like the whole of consciousness is moving... Iain: Yes.
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Mooji: ...so it takes out this feeling of blame, that people are responsible for what you’re drawn to, what you’re attracted to, or what you’re repulsed by; so there’s something a bit easy about it. And also because I know deep within my own being that we are this already, you see. Iain: No, I’ve heard this so many times. I understand what you’re saying, yes. Mooji: So that I’m happy to remind those who I meet that it’s not that we need to be clever, special or creative to qualify for this understanding in the heart – we are this already; but the recognition must take place. There needs to be that openness, of course. It’s not enough to just say this only with words. There has to be a complete recognition, the recognition of seeing what is not true, what is not you, and to be willing to turn away from this, to discard the unreal... This is up to us, for we are not inert – we are consciousness itself. This recognition can happen in an instant, or it can be a slow-cooking kind of awakening. Each unfolding is a unique birth. It is not that the self undergoes a change, for it is unchanging – but a block, a veil of ignorance is removed, which amounts to the peeling away of a cataract of illusory identity, and truth is revealed. Iain: Yes, I think you’re probably right. It’s a slow-cook, as you put it, for some people and for other people it can happen quite quickly. Mooji: Even if it happens quickly, there’s a slow-cook aspect of it that continues afterwards until the mind fully stabilises inside the heart, its source. Iain: Like an integration? Mooji: ...it seems paradoxical that a maturing continues to happen, but against the background of unchanging awareness at the same time. Iain: And was that… I know you don’t remember the details, but was that what was happening for you, those six years when you were living with your sister – you felt that there was the slow-cooking going on in the background? Mooji: Yes, maybe a slow burning away of the noise of identity. Anyone in the midst of this renewal recognises that something is dissolving by itself and there’s an eagerness to be out of the way, mentally or personally. No force is required where trust and faith is concerned. It is just like falling in love: no one has to remind or encourage you to remember your beloved. Iain: It’s grace again, isn’t it? Mooji: I’m comfortable with the word grace. There is the urge to come to completeness. Sometimes people say, “Yes, but how can I be sure?” This is such nonsense. When you’re in love you don’t say, “How can I be sure if this is the right person?” No, you don’t do this; you pour yourself out for love’s sake, you go for it. So perhaps we are too accustomed to respecting our thinking. Maybe it’s not even this – maybe it’s just not your moment to awaken to the truth of who or what you are; it is still time to sleep. I don’t see anything wrong with this. I don’t feel I’m here to persuade or to convince
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anybody, and I am not trying. All that happens is that someone comes in front and we see what happens. Iain: And you enjoy that... you enjoy that process? Mooji: Well, one cannot help but be in joy at the sight of someone coming home by awakening to the truth of Self. It is a joy to see imagined obstacles evaporate in that clear seeing. Yes. There is a joy in that [smiling]. Iain: Yes. I can sense that in you, yes. Mooji: To feel that lightness returning; the falling away of ignorance in the light of truth. Iain: How do you feel with the way humanity is going at the moment, all these dramas that are happening with the banks and the ecology and things? Is that...? Mooji: To be honest, I don’t even notice it. Iain: You don’t notice it, yes. Mooji: It’s not that I bury my head in the sand. All these things have to happen. Perhaps in the bigger picture it will force or challenge human beings to contemplate other approaches to existence, make an opening. I’m not waiting for anything to come out of it, in fact. Things like this happen thousands of times in the universe. Iain: I think you’re right there [laughing]. Mooji: [laughing] I don’t want to make a big deal, you know, like “2012 is going to bring a huge shift in the consciousness of the world.” We have been doing this for as far as even I can remember. I think it is another way of avoiding the ever-present opportunity to awaken, to recognise the timeless and imperishable awareness we are in every moment. Iain: Well, it gives us a focus for something to think about along the external, to try and fix and get right... Mooji: Yes, just a habit, a fantasy. Iain: ...and that can always be a distraction from the internal. Mooji: Yes. But if that happens, it is also the play of consciousness. What to do about it, who can argue…? I’m not apart from consciousness to do anything about this. It is all my play [laughing]. Iain: So you have your book, Before I am. How does it feel to have a book out now? Mooji: It is fine if it helps to bring a recognition of truth through the pointing of these words... that’s all. Iain: Thank you, Mooji, for coming along and talking to us.
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Suzanne Foxton
No Body In Particular
INTERVIEW BY RENATE MCNAY
Renate: Grace was shining on Suzanne, and she awakened while she was washing dishes, and we are going to find out the story about it. So can you talk us through, Suzanne, how it happened and when it happened? Suzanne: Well, the biggest sort of quality of it happening was that... what I was always looking for was right there in the first place. So I could tell the story of what seemed to happen leading up to that… But just to preface it by saying it doesn’t really matter; it’s not really important. And this kind of thing seems to happen in so many different ways for different people... But I was going through some therapy, three years or so, and was at a real... I was very suicidal and it was just the classic existential crisis. Renate: Yes, you were in a depression? Suzanne: Oh yes, big depression. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: No meaning, just looking at a big void. And many people will know just what I’m talking about. It was terrible, terrible. It was awful, it was hell. And I had a big breakdown and went into hospital and I was very, very malnourished and underweight, and I spent a lot of time just getting my health back... I started therapy for the depression and I was probably just very fortunate that the person who was there to help me was a little bit of a seeker, I suppose, of enlightenment or whatever you might call it, and introduced this a little bit
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into the therapy. Most of the therapy had a lot to do with just peeling away an incredible sense of worthlessness – that really came into it a lot. And feeling utterly unworthy which is, I suppose, the big problem with ego: it’s just a little constructed thing that’s given way too much responsibility and feels really unworthy. Renate: So you had a difficult childhood... I guess? Suzanne: Well, I had some difficulties in childhood, but I wouldn’t blame my parents... Renate: Sure. Suzanne: ...at all, you know, it’s... We have no control over these things, and I know the way I responded was quite bad, rather than what actually might have happened to me; so that was quite difficult. And I had a difficult adolescence, I suppose, and did lots of experimenting with altering my state of mind. And I was very dependent on alcohol and other substances – and was just basically desperate to be anywhere but where I was; desperate to get out of my head in any way I could. Whatever was in front of me was never enough – it was never good enough, or else it was terrible. And I wanted to leave. I never could just be there, just be there, so when I had this big existential crisis or whatever [voice becoming shaky], depression and suicide and all that, which so many people go through, I was really suffering; it was really awful. I suppose the therapy substituted for what other people might practise in other ways, you know. It was just a peeling away of the ego and the need to be validated. And in some strange convoluted way, I was validated and loved by the therapist, and also by my friends and family. And that sense of worthlessness got peeled away through that; and just sort of a being and a presence with other people became enjoyable and I was able to appreciate it. And then I had this thing with the knife [laughing], washing up. Renate: Yes, so tell us that thing with the knife. Suzanne: Well, the thing with the knife: I was just washing up and was... I had never been a traditional seeker in the way that some people are, but I had these recently introduced ideas about it – about the meaning of life, what is it... we are all one, that kind of thing, very vague and nebulous. But then I looked at the knife and it just seemed to be very much itself. I don’t know... Renate: So the knife was itself? Suzanne: The knife became very ‘knife-ish’ [laughing]. It’s very, very, very hard to describe, except that I then just saw that everything had always been like that, the whole time, with maybe something in the way of it (we could call that the ego if you like; something like that). And I was just not able to fully appreciate it until then. But I think if I could just say, it’s maybe a bit dangerous in a way to describe a certain happening, a big event that seems to happen, and an awakening ‘ah-ha!’ moment, because often... That’s not
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the case, I think, with some people; it’s a very gradual, gentle sort of a thing. But for me it just had to be “Whoa [looking at hand as if holding the knife] – here I am!” [laughs] Renate: Yes. Suzanne: And whatever I was looking for was this knife and whatever else happened to be around. Renate: Yes. So what happened after you saw the real nature in the knife [laughing]? Suzanne: Well, what happened? It doesn’t really matter, but I did have a sort of a moment there where I was crouching on the kitchen floor going “Whoa!” – a bit like Bill and Ted in their ‘Excellent Adventure’: “Whoa, whoa!” [holding on to sides of chair]. But it didn’t really last that long, and that was kind of fun. And I had an internal visual thing of all creation forming in on itself again and again [moving hands around in a circle], and kind of winking in and out of existence over and over [moving hands in pulsating motion]. Something like that. It’s very hard to describe. Renate: So you knew what you were experiencing in this moment? You didn’t have any doubts coming in, or you didn’t have any thought like, “Oh my God, I am going crazy!”? Suzanne: Yes, well, I think that afterwards – yes I did [laughing]! I got some sort of a physiological, phenomenal thing where I was... I felt like I was seeing things maybe slightly above the usual where the eyes come out [pointing above and in front of eyes]. And I did think... And I was still in therapy and I was thinking, “Am I going nuts?” And so I was just searching on the internet, as one does these days, and I came across Stanley Sobottka’s Course in Consciousness. He’s a quantum physicist at the University of Virginia and he wrote... he had a whole tome of about two hundred pages, about the scientific way of getting there. He was an atomic physicist so he was looking at the atom and how it’s all spaced, and that there don’t seem to be any rules and there doesn’t seem to be anything there – and how he came to some kind of enlightenment through that. Renate: Oh really? Suzanne: Yeah. And at the end of that tome, Tony Parsons was cited. He’s quite local; he’s the only one in the UK that was cited. And so I went to see him, and some of the words that he used just... it just reassured my mind that it wasn’t going mad, you know; that it was just... I was just seeing things very clearly and without some of the usual safeguards that the mind puts in place perhaps. And that’s why my perspective was slightly different: things would seem to actually visually disappear and that kind of thing. And that really doesn’t seem to be an issue at the moment – it just... Everything seems very much itself and it always has done.
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Renate: Yes. So when you say, “Things started disappearing” – is that something you still experience? Suzanne: Not really. I mean, a lot of people who write and talk about this kind of thing, they do go on about the importance of not thinking and you mustn’t think and clear your mind of thoughts. And if I do... if my mind doesn’t seem to be terribly engaged, you know, with thinking and planning and ‘whatever-ing’, then yes – sometimes actual physical objects can just seem to waver around a bit, you know... But I wouldn’t say this is a necessary thing, or a thing that people should be looking for – it’s just, you know, the mind is going to do funny things sometimes. Renate: Yes, so it seems that matter becomes more transparent? Suzanne: Well yes, yes... Renate: Not so dense. Suzanne: ...matter is actually transparent. Renate: It is, it is. Suzanne: It is. Atoms are mostly space, and what the rest of it is, is hard to define so... Renate: Yes, yes. Suzanne: ...the actual physical world can [moving hands around on arm of chair] sort of... visually anyway – I don’t know about the other senses – but visually can seem to be a bit ‘wavery’ and still manage to negotiate it OK, though. Renate: Yes. So... you feel you crossed some kind of finishing line? Suzanne: Well, I suppose if you’re telling the story of it, yes – it would seem like that. But the biggest sort of quality of this apparent experience was that there is no line to cross, that I was always there (using the past tense advisedly) – I am always here, it was always here. Everything was just exactly the way it’s supposed to be, and there really isn’t any time for a story of ‘me’ awakening or whatever to happen. Renate: That’s fascinating. Yes, can you talk more about that? Suzanne: Well… [sighs] I’ll use a recent example… If you’re talking about the dinosaurs and the past and historical events… So if I have a dinosaur’s bone here, and I’m doing scientific tests – carbon-dating on something, to scientifically prove that, yes – there was a long ago past, where these dinosaurs were from… I’m doing all that carbon-dating and the test on the dinosaur bone now. And any thoughts about the past are happening now. And any thoughts about the future are happening now. And anything I do is happening now. Even if it seems to be part of a process of a long plan with a very specific goal at the end of it, it’s always happening now. It’s so easy, I guess, to see that there is no time, that it is entirely just a construct of the mind and thinking. And it’s fun, and absolutely worthwhile for its own sake… But this is it. Now is all that there is.
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Renate: So what you’re saying is… Let’s take, for example, suffering or pain: it is in this moment, and then the mind takes it, and goes with it into the future. And that is the process of suffering. But if we’re really in the moment with it, there is no suffering or there is no pain? Suzanne: Well, I think that... Renate: How does that work? Suzanne: I don’t... I don’t know how that works [laughing]. Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: It’s a good question, but I would say that... it’s likely that if there is not an ego there that is claiming that “this is my pain, and it’s going to last forever”; if that’s not there, it’s probably likely that suffering will not be the case. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: I don’t think there’s any guarantee. I mean, you can take a concept like that and the ego can say, “Oh, I want that! Not suffering – I don’t want to suffer”, and then perhaps reinforce itself trying not to suffer. I think that even not suffering isn’t the goal. There is no goal except just to be, and everybody’s doing that – everybody’s got it right, everybody’s being, everybody’s right here right now. Even if their minds are going all over the place, that’s part of it too. Renate: It’s fascinating [laughing]. I’m just... I can see how my mind is taking what you’re saying and making a... concept out of it, how that all works, yes. Suzanne: Well, the mind will do that. I think that people are very hard on their minds, you know; very hard on their egos. I still, I guess, am a character in a story, and things seem to happen and I make to-do lists and plans and raise my children and do all that kind of thing. And part of that story is that I see so many people who are just so hard on themselves, who just can’t get it right; nothing’s ever good enough. And they’re hard on others, you know, because they’re not perfect enough. And there’s some sort of unattainable goal all the time and people just beat themselves up all the time because they can’t reach it. And I think that it’s very possible that that doesn’t have to be the case. Now I don’t think there’s anything wrong with all of that, though the character in my story of my life tends to think, ”What a shame!” But I guess, if you are more presently aware, even kind of getting there… then maybe this is enough. Renate: So, Suzanne, after the awakening did anything change in your life? Suzanne: Not a lot, I have to say [laughing]. I have to say that, in the story of my life, a lot of change had happened because of the therapy I was going through and the kind of help from the many people around me that I was getting... What has changed is very hard to describe. Things just seem to toddle along
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as they always did. Nothing seems that different – yet everything seems just more itself. I hate to put a label on it, but more beautiful, more intrinsically valuable. So there isn’t a lot of searching and casting around for something to be different or better. Now those kinds of goals can kind of come up, you know: I don’t know, to dye my hair a better shade of brown or [laughing] small little things like that… or help my children with their homework and keep trying to instil some discipline in them and make them “better” [moving fingers in inverted commas motion] in that way. But that just has to do with the sort of conditioning that I have, and that is just what is being given to work with. And even in the midst of all that, there’s nothing happening that’s not happening right now, right now. Renate: Say that again. Suzanne: There’s nothing happening that isn’t happening now. Renate: Right. Suzanne: It’s always happening now. Renate: Aha [nodding]. Suzanne: No matter what. No matter if there’s an interesting story going on or not, or if there’s suffering going on or not, it’s always now. Renate: Right. OK. So when you are with your children, do you see them differently now? Do you see more their true nature than their ego? Suzanne: [sighs] Renate: What do you support more [laughing]? Suzanne: I don’t know. I think that their true nature is absolutely apparent, as is the true nature of everything, because it’s just right here [moving hand in sweeping motion diagonally across face and body]. It’s very obvious. Well, I suppose... This is all quite meaningless – this is just what seems to be happening for me – but I quite enjoy their egos. I quite enjoy seeing my children embarked on a mission to become the most separate, special individuals [laughing], completely unto-themselves people who ever existed in the history of the universe. This probably goes for most young teenagers. And I think it’s just lovely to see these little personalities forming and changing and coping, and I think I’m very fortunate in my children... They seem to cope with reality, and the things that are given to them have gone fairly well. And the story is fabulous, you know. It might all be just always happening now... but you know, it’s lovely, it’s to be enjoyed. And that’s the biggest difference: I enjoy my children... Renate: It is. Suzanne: ...I enjoy them. They’re not a problem. They kind of are sometimes, but there are not the sort of things and ego concerns I suppose… in the way of enjoying them so much. They come up a little and they slip away.
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I tell a story – and it isn’t really very important, but I came home from just being out, and after I’d been away (actually on a retreat, an organised retreat: I go away for a couple of days and just read and stuff)… So I came back – and this wasn’t, I suppose, long after this knife thing... Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: ...and my children, as always, ran up to me, “Mummy, Mummy!” and gave me a hug in the hallway. And honestly, I swear to God, I’d never held them before, I’d never held them. I mean, I had, over and over, but I really held them. They were just, you know… This “All is one” thing – it’s very obvious... [laughing] Renate: Yes. Suzanne: ...and it’s always there: it’s always obvious. Renate: Yes, beautiful. Suzanne: It was... Renate: Could they sense the difference? Suzanne: I don’t know. I think they probably find I’m not so much of a drag anymore; you know, a bit more fun. Renate: So do you enjoy the ego of your husband? Suzanne: Well... Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: [laughing] I do, actually. He’s a good balance to me. He’s lovely. He’s... oh, he’s sweet! He thinks this is a lot of nonsense, honestly – this stuff and my blog. He said, “I tried to read your blog. What are you on about?” And it’s just hilarious. And he’s a good balance for me, you know, in the story of our lives, but he’s beautifully supportive. He’ll like call me and say, “Good luck on your thing today.” And well, yeah – I do really enjoy him, I really do. Of course, he gets on my nerves, but I get on his nerves; very ordinary. This is what we’re trying to talk about here... It is very normal and ordinary and just... it’s just this, it’s just this. Whatever this is, whatever it is we’re trying to speak about, it’s always here. Renate: Yet we have… some people sit twenty, twenty-five years in a cave to find that out... Suzanne: [laughing] Oh, I’m glad that was not my story! Renate: [laughing] Yes, it’s very well hidden. Suzanne: Yes, it’s hidden by its obviousness. Renate: So, one thing I want to ask you is, how does one actually know if a true awakening happened and... it’s not just a delusion in their mind... Suzanne: [laughs] Renate: ...and they just made the leap in their mind? How does one know that? Suzanne: I don’t know. There’s definitely a difference between understanding this and sort of accepting it, and truly letting go, I suppose; truly just letting
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go and letting everything be. I think that it’s just very obvious if it’s “happened” [moving fingers in inverted commas motion]… Nothing’s happening… I find that difficult to answer. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: I think you just know; you just know. And I think it can just happen that you have a little moment maybe where you just realise you’ve always known... you’ve always known. Renate: Yes. But isn’t the ego then coming back in again and making somehow this knowing its own territory? Suzanne: Well yeah, I think that sort of thing can definitely be the story for some people. What seemed to have happened for me was that a little ego concern will kind of come up, you know... Renate: Yes. Suzanne: ...but it’s so easily seen through. It’s not the be-all and end-all at all – it’s very inconsequential; it doesn’t have much importance. I think that a big tendency is to think “Oh, I want it to be better”, you know; “Anything but this – I want a better life, I want it to be better. Ooh, this enlightenment stuff sounds great – I want some of that!” But you could still have a glimpse if you manage… Everybody manages to have no thought or whatever, where everything seems a bit more obvious. And they have a glimpse and then they seem to come back and – “Oh, I want it!” But there’s nothing wrong with that. I suppose there’s nothing wrong with never getting it. It’s all part of what’s happening. There’s really nothing wrong with not getting this, and that desperate longing… I know it’s difficult, but the answer is that it’s here, it’s here. What we’re looking for is right here. Renate: Somehow we have – or at least I have – this picture that, if more and more people would get it, then we would have a better world. Suzanne: [laughing] Well, I like the world. Renate: [laughing] But you said there is nothing wrong with having this world with all its suffering and wars and death and nastiness. Suzanne: Well, this is a difficult one for people, I suppose, and it’s perhaps one of the biggest difficulties or stumbling blocks maybe. Don’t tell the ego that this is OK, that this world is the utopia that we’ve always wanted, with all of its ups and downs and pain and suffering and war and poverty and... There’ll be poverty, there’ll be people who are trying to relieve that poverty. There’s all these stories going on: there’s going to be war and there’ll be people working very hard for peace. There’ll be really selfish people and people who are incredibly altruistic. And all of this is happening. And in this duality that we negotiate through (or seem to), there needs to be balance; it’s all balanced. There has to be up for down, dark for light, in for out, good for bad. And it’s in balance, it’s in balance.
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Now I think it’s very possible that the whole story of the world... This is just speculation, but we could all unite and come together and there would be very little poverty. And it could be like the Star Trek universe, where there’s no money and everybody works to better themselves all the time and explores space and does all these fantastic things, for the potential of humanity’s unlocked. And that’s just a really nice story. But probably, in individual stories, there would still be plenty of ups and downs and pain and suffering and maybe not the whole thing, being so much as nations deprived, or groups of people in hunger, but there might be lots of mental anguish. There’s always going to be balance. That’s just a speculation, you know. I don’t know what I’m talking about [laughing]! Renate: [laughing] So from your point of view, there is a balance in this world? For me it looks pretty much... being out of balance, you know, going down the tube, extinguishing. We are committing suicide or something like that. Suzanne: Well, it’s possible. There’s a couple of things I can think to say about that. Firstly, that there’s sometimes a period of out of balance and then it swings back to in balance – or over on the other side, you know. Overbalance! I don’t know what the other side of that is. The other thing is, I don’t know that the world is going down the toilet. Gosh, we’ve got a lot less disease than we used to. The resources that we have are amazing. This whole... the internet and the communications that we have in the story of our life – it’s amazing. And that is slowly becoming more available to more people. And there certainly seems to me to be a lot of effort going on to eradicate poverty and to solve all of those problems that are out there. And people are sure seeing... I mean, if the press is to be believed – and they’re probably not – people seem to be trying to get themselves out of the sticky situation with the planet and the global… not warming... What do they call it now? What’s the pc thing? Climate change? Renate: Climate change, yes. Suzanne: Climate change. And I think that fear has got a big voice and it’s perhaps... Renate: Yes. Fear’s the driving force. Suzanne: ...in the media you tend to hear the fearful stories that make you buy that paper or whatever, and the great good that goes on just doesn’t get reported as much. Renate: No, you’re right. Yes, yes. Suzanne: So perhaps there’s more balance than we think. Renate: Yes. So when you... when you see suffering, what is going on in you? Suzanne: Well, when I see suffering, I want to help, you know; that’s just my character – I would try to help. But it’s not always very successful [laughing].
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Renate: Yes. Suzanne: You can’t go around talking about oneness and non-duality to every person you know – it doesn’t go down terribly well. But one thing I would say to a suffering person is that I, in my story of my life (which doesn’t matter at all) – boy, did I suffer! I really suffered, and I... I’m not joking, I tried to kill myself so many times, and I was just in such despair for so long. But I know now (and this is just the story of my life – it doesn’t matter at all) that that was an amazing gift. It was such a gift, to be that vulnerable, and also to witness other people who were that vulnerable. And I couldn’t know, in the story of my life, that it’s not a big deal what’s going on; I couldn’t know the sort of peace and happiness that I have now without that suffering. So if I see people suffering, I might generally say something along those lines to them. And that, in this appearance, manifested reality, negotiated by our egos, nothing lasts; it doesn’t last. Just wait around long enough and it will change. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: It will change. Renate: Listening to you and talking about how you enjoy your children’s stories and characters, you would think now you would enjoy your own story? Suzanne: Oh I do [laughing]! Renate: [laughing] You would completely live it in a different way. Suzanne: Well, I do. But what seems to be coming up, or what’s given to me (there’s no good way to put it), is quite a normal existence of just keeping things quite safe in the family and give the children sort of as good as we can get them [laughing]... and let them go and see what happens. And that’s a pretty big task. For my character, it’s a lot. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: It’s a big deal. And I do enjoy it – [whispering] my goodness, I enjoy it! And that whole thing... it’s just amazing... It’s very hard to describe how timelessness and story go on absolutely [voice beginning to shake and as if holding back tears] in harmony and in conjunction with each other, but they do. It’s lovely. We are given everything. Awareness sees itself in just a perfect way. There isn’t anything better than this. Everything that we could possibly need, that awareness needs to apprehend itself, if you want to put it that way – it’s... it is here. So hey, why not enjoy it? Why not? Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: If at all possible. Renate: Yes. So what did your psychotherapist say when he found out he’s searching for a long time and you had this amazing experience? Suzanne: [laughing] I think we had a text exchange about “Oh, I beat you!”
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Renate: [laughing] What did you say, “I beat you”? Suzanne: “Oh, I beat you!” Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: It was jokingly, but at the time I wasn’t sure what was going on. Well, I don’t know – he’s probably there. I don’t know – it doesn’t matter. It was just a nice part of my story, having that help there. Renate: Yes. So maybe one day you may give satsang and he will show up [laughing]. Suzanne: [laughs] Renate: Get your blessing. Suzanne: I haven’t got the time to do satsangs, I tell you. Timelessness or not. And I don’t know what to say; stuff I’m saying here, I suppose. Honestly, I think I’ve written in the blog that if I try to get a bunch of people together – whoa, it opens a huge can of worms! Whether I charge money for this… Oh my gosh, some people get really… And then I get them there and say “OK, you’re all where you need to be [laughing] – see you later.” Renate: [laughing] It’s very simple, yes. Suzanne: Yes. Renate: Well, I spent some time looking through your website; it’s real fun and I can really recommend it. It’s full of fun, wisdom, colour, enlightenment,.. Yes, very creative. Suzanne: I’m not creative at all [laughing]. Renate: Are you sure [laughing]? Suzanne: Honestly, I can say this: I write that blog in the morning and I come back maybe to... just to check comments or something. I read over it a bit later in the day and I think, “Wow, that is really good! I don’t remember writing that at all.” [laughing] So that whole thing about... I mean, ‘ego-lessness’ is maybe sometimes a bit more obvious than other terms. Maybe first thing in the morning, as the story seems to unfold, before the mind is fully engaged with “do the laundry, take the kids in”, maybe it... it flows a bit better. Renate: Yes. So what you say, Suzanne, is there still... what I would call a person in there... Suzanne: Yes. Renate: ...who does the laundry, who takes care of the children? Because a lot of people say there isn’t anybody there who does anything. Suzanne: It’s all how you put it. None of it’s really happening. The whole thing about atomic nothingness, it pervades all that we call existence. There is just awareness and we get to see it, we get to see ourselves; and it’s all made duality in order for us to see it. Now there’s nothing wrong with the duality and the story. The duality and
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the absolute oneness of it all are the same thing and coexist, even though they are seemingly completely mutually exclusive concepts. And it’s very hard for the mind to get around that, but it’s also the easiest thing in the world… it’s the easiest thing in the world. It’s just what you’re doing, whatever it is that is happening, that is everything. Renate: Yes. I was watching a couple of days ago a little ‘blob’ – you call it blob, bleep… [laughing]? Suzanne: [laughs] Renate: ...by Jeff Foster. It was so funny, you know. He was talking about how he... You know Jeff Foster? Suzanne: Yes, I’ve emailed with him. Renate: Right, so he was talking about how he came to the absolute. And he thought he was enlightened… And then he realised, “Well, there’s still somebody here who thinks he’s enlightened”... [laughing] Suzanne: [laughing] Yes, that’s true. Renate: ...and then in the end he took this mug (I don’t know what was inside: beer or whisky or milk), and he’s taking a sip [holding glass of water], and he says, “That is it [laughing].” Suzanne: [laughing] Yes, the thoughts that go on. There’s nothing wrong with your thoughts going mad thinking, “Oh, am I enlightened? Am I?” You know: “There’s somebody here still saying I’m enlightened”… And they’re just... I kind of just ignored it, any washing-machine thoughts that just seem to come. Renate: Yes. So is there something in you which would like to talk more about it and help other people to realise that? Suzanne: Well, I try to help a bit. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: You know, people... Most of the commentary on my blog is... it’s all kind of fun and light-hearted and I get through email. Generally people are quite desperate, seekers wanting help. I do try to help them and phone people occasionally. And I don’t know that I would be much help, to have a meeting of friends together or whatever. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: Maybe that would be part of the story. I think that I’m doing exactly what I need to be doing. I try to help a little when I can. And I don’t know that anybody really needs help. Renate: So how do you know… or how does one know that what they’re doing is exactly the right thing? Suzanne: Well, it’s whatever they’re doing [laughing]! Renate: Because we talk about the need to “Follow your intuition” and “Stop thinking about it – just go and do it” and all those things...
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Suzanne: Well, that’s good – why not? [sighs] I don’t know, a lot of people are really very hard on thinking, and... Renate: Everybody’s hard on thinking. Suzanne: ...yes. So many people who write about this, they say things like “Pause thought” or “Don’t think” or “Just be” or... And thinking seems to be the difficulty, what causes separation. The construct of the ego is that that’s the thing that’s separate, that keeps us from nirvana or whatever, seeing oneness. But I don’t know, I think it’s all part of it too. It’s oneness, and that includes everything; it includes all apparent duality – including the thoughts that seem to be separate. There would be no point in being separate unless it was to maybe see that there isn’t separation. But there doesn’t have to be a point. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: You don’t have to see oneness. I believe, I truly believe, that whatever is going on, that is the perfect expression of manifest awareness. And you could try to tinker with it, but who is tinkering? It’s all one tinkering with itself, for the heaven of it and the hell of it. I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with anything [laughing]! Renate: [laughing] Well, what would you say to somebody who really wants to get it? How can he get it? Suzanne: There isn’t anything.... Renate: …wrong instead either [finishing Suzanne’s sentence]. Suzanne: No, no – well, there isn’t anything that I can say, really, that’s going to spontaneously awaken people. I think that my role, my character’s role, whatever, is a little bit more along the lines of helping people to just be a little more accepting of themselves in this... in the story, in duality or whatever you want to call it. That seems to be more... Everybody is worthwhile by virtue of their mere existence, but so many people don’t believe that. And I would really just like to make it clear to people – if at all possible – that they’re whole and complete just as they are; there’s nothing missing, there’s nothing missing. And I could say things like, ”You mustn’t think” or “You mustn’t believe your thoughts” ... But because, I suppose, in my character, that’s not sort of how it happened in me… That’s not the path or the pointers that were used around me. So I have a little trouble with saying “Meditate” or “Still your thoughts” or… I don’t know... Renate: That was not your path. Suzanne: No, it was not my path. Renate: But when you were living in your story with your suffering, if somebody would have said to you “Everything is perfect”, would you have believed them?
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Suzanne: Well, I did have people saying that to me [laughing]. Renate: [laughs] Suzanne: I had a lot of trouble believing them. They kept on saying it and they kept on saying it. No, I probably wouldn’t have believed them, but I might have sort of known what they meant. Renate: Yes. Suzanne: I... even in the extreme midst of my suffering and taking that ego oh so seriously, I just knew that everything was fine. I just couldn’t see it, I just couldn’t see it. But the energy of that opened up into something else. Renate: Right. Well, I certainly feel as I’m sitting here with you listening that something inside is relaxing, and is more kind of experiencing the truth of everything, or the truth of what you are saying. Suzanne: I don’t know what I’m talking about [laughing]. I don’t. Yes, I think that… despite all those terrible news headlines, this is such a miracle, such a miracle. It’s meaningless and miraculous and amazing. And it’s lovely to be able to see that now; it’s lovely to be able to apprehend that. But other parts of it that are not so pleasant – I think that’s all probably necessary, it’s probably necessary. Renate: Yes. So from what you say, Suzanne, you still can be drawn sometimes into your story? Suzanne: I suppose so. It seems a bit more unselfconscious living than that; it’s hard to describe. I pay attention to the story and try to get the mechanics of it right [laughing], if you know what I mean. But it also seems very much like it is just happening now – it’s always now, it’s always happening now. And the mechanics of it, the story of it, are fun, or they’re painful or they’re intense, that’s for sure. Even from the point of view of mental health or common sense, life is everything, everything’s available. There’s going to be pain, there’s going to be bliss; and it’s hard to appreciate one without the other in the apparent story that seems to unfold. Renate: So if you would have pain in your story – not in your story, in your experience now – how would you react to it? You would not... you would be OK with it? Suzanne: [laughing] I don’t know. Well, yes, I’ve had pain: it’s really painful, it’s really... Grief is intense, it’s alive, it’s... it’s part of it, it’s part of it; it’s not necessarily bad. Renate: So you don’t try to get rid of it? Suzanne: [sighs] No, no I don’t, I don’t. And joy’s the wrong word probably but... it is there. And it is what it is, and that’s what is there. And doubtless it will change, you know. Renate: But you are not waiting for the change? Suzanne: It doesn’t seem so, no – it’s very hard to describe, but no, it doesn’t...
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I might have a moment where I might look forward to when it’s over [laughing], but no... It’s appreciated, it’s appreciated. Those sorts of feelings are part of this, and there’s nothing wrong with them. Renate: Yes. So we have about a couple of minutes left. I know you are writing a book at the moment – do you want to say what you’re writing about? Suzanne: Well, it’s not the usual “You are what you see” or one of those kinds of things because I do that in the blog; I do that enough in the blog. It’s more a proper story, three stories intertwined. And all these people have amazing sort of revelations about their life, and it kind of all comes to nothing. So it is the story of... Renate: Yourself? Suzanne: Well, it’s a story of awareness going through a lot of trouble to just be awareness again. Renate: Yes, to find itself. Suzanne: Yes. And hopefully it’s quite a good read. It doesn’t come as easily as writing the blog, that’s for sure. It’s a lot of crafting and honing and quite difficult. But fun – I’m really enjoying it, really enjoying it. Renate: Good. Well we are looking forward to when the book comes out. Suzanne: Ooh, typing away. I’m trying to fit it in around the very important family. Renate: OK, Suzanne, we have to finish now – thank you for being with us. And you can get in touch with Suzanne through her website, which will appear in the credits.
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