Wednesday Volume 671 5 February 2020 No. 22

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 5 February 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 295 5 FEBRUARY 2020 296

Mr Walker: The Government have put House of Commons absolutely at the centre of this process. That is reflected in the nature of the protocol that is agreed as part of the withdrawal agreement and legislated for through the Wednesday 5 February 2020 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2020. But of course the end result will depend on the free trade agreement negotiated between the UK and the EU, and it is too The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock early at this stage to speculate on the details of that. Northern Ireland does enjoy special protections in this PRAYERS process as a result of the protocol. Tony Lloyd () (Lab): The Minister was very careful not to answer my hon. Friend the Member for [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Ilford North (Wes Streeting) as to whether there will be checks on goods travelling between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The First Minister is clear that there will be. The EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, is clear that Oral Answers to Questions there will be. Many people in industry and commerce in Northern Ireland believe that there will be. Does the Minister agree that there will be checks, or does he NORTHERN IRELAND say that there will not be checks, on goods going from GB to Northern Ireland? The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Walker: The Prime Minister has been clear. Beyond Leaving the EU: Economic and Social Effect our obligations under international law, there will be no changes for movements of goods between Great Britain 1. Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): What recent and Northern Ireland. When discussing the protocol assessment his Department has made of the (a) economic with the EU, the UK will be ambitious on how flexible and (b) social effect on Northern Ireland of the UK we can make this system. Northern Ireland remains leaving the EU. [900560] part of the UK’s customs territory. 14. (Stockton North) (Lab): What Tony Lloyd: The Minister is of course right that the recent assessment his Department has made of the Prime Minister has been crystal clear. The very simple (a) economic and (b) social effect on Northern Ireland question for the Minister is this: is the Prime Minister of the UK leaving the EU. [900573] right or wrong? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Mr Walker: The Prime Minister is always right. Ireland (Mr ): We have now left the EU with a good deal. Northern Ireland will remain part of Mr (North Shropshire) (Con): One of the UK customs territory and will be able to participate the ways of consolidating the benefits of leaving the EU in our free trade deals. The Prime Minister negotiated would be to make Northern Ireland the most attractive hard to ensure that measures are in place that reflect part of the UK to trade. When I was Secretary of State, Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances. There will be we had an all-party campaign that had the support of no hard border with Ireland. At the same time, the all the business community. Thanks to the tremendous agreement completely safeguards Northern Ireland’s efforts of my successor, my right hon. Friend the Member integral place within the , and the for Chipping Barnet (), the Executive arrangements on rights and consent within the Belfast/Good now have the power to reduce corporation tax. Some Friday agreement. Members of the Executive are a bit gloomy about this. What steps are the Government taking to encourage Wes Streeting: The Prime Minister got the majority Members of the Executive to take this amazing power he asked for to deliver the that he wanted, but is to match corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland? it really possible for him to deliver on his promise that there would be no forms and no checks—no barriers of Mr Walker: My right hon. Friend makes a very any kind—not just between Great Britain and Northern important point—of course, he speaks with considerable Ireland but between the north of Ireland and the Republic experience in this area. It is right that we agreed, as part of Ireland? of previous agreements, that the Executive should have that power. If Ministers from the Executive wish to use Mr Walker: The protocol provides important protections it, we stand ready to engage with them, as long as they in that respect. Of course we will be working through can show that the finances of the Northern Ireland the Joint Committee, and through the legislation that Executive will be sustainable on the basis of any move has been promised with the “New Decade, New Approach” in corporation tax. agreement, to deliver on those promises. (Harrow East) (Con): Will my hon. Alex Cunningham: The Government’s assessment of Friend confirm that the special status that Northern the economic impact of the withdrawal agreement had Ireland has, now that we have left the European Union, little by way of forecasts in terms of Northern Ireland. means that there is a bright new future for all the people Does the Minister agree that this shows the lack of in Northern Ireland, and that that future should be regard that the Government have shown to Northern embraced, not greeted with the doom and gloom from Ireland throughout the Brexit process? Labour? 297 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 298

Mr Walker: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Will the What I see when I visit businesses in Northern Ireland is Secretary of State confirm that all the welcome financial a determination to deliver for the economy to make sure assistance being made available to the new Northern that people in Northern Ireland enjoy the benefits both Ireland Executive will be subject to the Barnett formula? of being part of a global and outward-looking UK and Will he also say what discussions he has had with the of getting the best relationship with our European Secretary of State for on this matter? neighbours. That is an endeavour on which we must all now work together. Julian Smith: I think that the hon. Lady knows that this package is a unique package for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Executive: Financial Package and is not subject to the Barnett consequentials. She also knows that there is a very, very good Secretary of State for Scotland, who enjoys working positively with 2. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What assessment her and her colleagues. he has made of the adequacy of the financial package allocated to the Northern Ireland Executive. [900561] Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): There is some discussion about exactly what £2 billion extra means 7. Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): How much funding among the parties in Northern Ireland, and it is important the Government plan to allocate to the Northern Ireland that the Government maintain trust with the people of Executive in relation to the “New Decade, New Approach” Northern Ireland to honour financial and economic agreement. [900566] commitments. In the wake of the renewable heat incentive scandal it is important that the Government ensure The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian transparency and value for taxpayers’ money. Can the Smith): The UK Government are providing the restored Secretary of State tell us what investment is required to Executive with a £2 billion financial package that delivers fund the Bengoa review, and what assessment has been for the people of Northern Ireland and supports delivery made of savings from delivering an integrated education of the “New Decade, New Approach” agreement. This service? financial commitment represents the biggest injection of new money in a Northern Ireland talks deal in well Julian Smith: The answers are to be found with the over a decade. The £2 billion of extra investment gives Executive. It is up to the devolved Government to look the Executive the means to transform the lives of people at how best to spend the package. It is up to the parties in Northern Ireland for a generation. and the Executive to work through how they deliver on their side of the agreement, which is to transform both Jim Shannon: In January 2020, when making a statement the health service and education. It is not for me to come about the “New Decade, New Approach” deal, the up with those answers, but I look forward to hearing Secretary of State told the House that the financial theirs. package was a good start. I love a good start, but I also like good progress. Will he update the House on what Security Situation progress has been made in building on the good start to ensure investment in better mental health services and 3. Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): What recent dealing with the legacy of the past? assessment he has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland. [900562] Julian Smith: Indeed, the hon. Gentleman is right. There has been a very good start, and there have been 8. (Southport) (Con): What recent multiple meetings here in Whitehall with joint Ministers. assessment he has made of the security situation in We have had a Joint Ministerial Committee in , Northern Ireland. [900567] and yesterday both the First and Deputy First Ministers attended, for the first time ever, a recruitment drive by 11. Mr (North East Hampshire) the Police Service of Northern Ireland. We have seen a (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the security very positive start, and I hope that that continues. situation in Northern Ireland. [900570]

Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) rose— The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian Smith): The security situation in Northern Ireland remains Hon. Members: Hear, hear! severe.

Ben Bradley: Thank you very much. I thank my right Robert Largan: In light of the answer that the Secretary hon. Friend for his previous answer. Will he confirm for of State has given, can he advise the House what steps the House and for the communities of Northern Ireland the Government are taking to ensure a smooth transition that this is the most generous package of its kind that and continued security and peace in Northern Ireland has ever been allocated to Northern Ireland through a when the withdrawal agreement transition period comes process like this? to an end on 31 December?

Julian Smith: Indeed, my hon. Friend is right. Voters Julian Smith: There are very good discussions with in Northern Ireland realise that this is a good package. the EU on security matters, and there are very strong There is a Budget coming up in March, and I am sure bonds with the Irish Government. I remain confident that if the Executive prioritise their programme of that the security situation that I have just described can government there will be a positive future for the whole be well managed with our current relationships and of Northern Ireland. within the remit of the transition agreement. 299 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 300

Damien Moore: Will my right hon. Friend join me Northern Ireland Economy in condemning the continued presence of dissident organisations in Northern Ireland, and will he say that 4. Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): What there is no place in our society for those who peddle steps he is taking to increase the size of the Northern hate and division? Ireland economy. [900563] Julian Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern condemn the ongoing activities of dissident republicans. Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): Northern Ireland is a leading I pay tribute to the police and to our security services destination for inward investment, with employment at for all the work that they do to make sure that Northern a record high and unemployment at a record low.However, Ireland remains safe. there is more to be done to unleash Northern Ireland’s economic potential. The UK Government are providing Mr Jayawardena: What about those who have been significant funding to Northern Ireland, including through responsible for security in years gone by? When will the a £1 billion Barnett-based investment guarantee and Government put an end to the vexatious claims against £562 million for and growth deals that cover the our brave armed forces? whole of Northern Ireland. Julian Smith: We have said—and the Prime Minister Mr Robertson: When the Minister discusses these could not be clearer on this—that we will end vexatious matters with the Executive, will he consider discussing— claims, for both the police and the armed forces. We along with corporation tax, which he should raise—the look forward to bringing forward legislation in that levels of VAT on tourism and air passenger duty? I regard in due course. understand that both have been reduced in the Republic of Ireland. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I welcome that the Secretary of State just said he is going to end vexatious Mr Walker: My hon. Friend raises some important complaints against police officers. In the light of that, points. Northern Ireland’s tourism potential is enormous. will he commit to meet Mark Lindsay, the chairman of I can confirm that, as was previously committed, the the Police Federation for Northern Ireland, and officers Government are reviewing the devolution of APD, and from the Retired Police Officers Association, so that they that review is ongoing. can put to him their grave concerns about the non-criminal charges that it has been suggested should be levelled at Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): We former serving brave police officers in Ulster? welcome the success of Invest NI and others in attracting investment to Northern Ireland, but it is essential that Julian Smith: I will, of course, meet those the hon. we continue to have unfettered access to our biggest Gentleman mentioned as soon as possible. market, which is Great Britain. Economic growth is dependent on that and we need the Government to Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): The Secretary honour their commitments to ensure that we continue of State will know that the Stormont House agreement to have that access in both directions. is the process agreed by all parties, after consultation with victims, on how to address the legacy of the Mr Walker: I absolutely recognise the importance of troubles on the basis of truth, justice and reconciliation. the issues that the right hon. Gentleman raises. We will Does he agreed that that is the settled process, and is he honour our commitments and have committed, through confident that the Government will stick to it and to the the “New Decade, New Approach” deal, to specific principle that everybody is equal before the law? legislation on the issue. I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman and the other parties on Julian Smith: I am confident that we can deliver on delivering that. the Government’s priority of ending vexatious claims for our armed forces and the police, but I also look Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson: Will the Minister indicate forward to working with all parties in Northern Ireland the timescale within which the Government hope to to develop a consensus on how we move forward on the bring forward legislative measures? It is essential that Stormont House agreement. business has the certainty that it needs at this time to take investment decisions. Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming the support Mr Walker: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, from political parties and community organisations, the commitment is to have the legislation in place by such as the Gaelic Athletic Association, for the new the end of the year, but there will of course have to be Police Service of Northern Ireland recruitment campaign? discussions through the usual channels as to the precise Will he encourage young nationalists to join the police timing. and pursue a noble career and profession? Will he also join me in commending the work of PSNI officers, the Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): I thank the Garda Síochána and, indeed, police throughout the whole House for returning me to the Chair of the Northern of these islands? Ireland Affairs Committee. A strong economy requires access to a skilled, motivated Julian Smith: It was such a positive event yesterday, workforce. Clearly, we have to ensure that the skills base when we saw the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland is supported and grows, but will my attending that recruitment drive. I encourage all young hon. Friend assure me that the voice and needs of the women and men in Northern Ireland who are interested Northern Irish economy will be heard loudly in the in the police service to join, whatever their background. Home Office as we finesse our immigration policies? 301 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 302

Mr Walker: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his 15. John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) re-election as Chair of the Select Committee. He makes (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the a very important point, which I have also heard loud effect on Northern Ireland of the restoration of devolved and clear from Northern Ireland businesses. I think Government. [900574] they welcome some of the indications from the Migration Advisory Committee report. Of course, the Northern TheSecretaryof StateforNorthernIreland(JulianSmith): Ireland Office will ensure that the concerns and interests The “New Decade, New Approach” deal has restored of Northern Ireland businesses are communicated across decision making to locally accountable representatives Government, including to the Home Office. in Northern Ireland and guarantees the Good Friday agreement. It has ended three years of stasis at Stormont (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): The and is already having a beneficial effect on Northern Minister is right to say that the Northern Ireland economy Ireland’s citizens. has enormous potential, and there is no doubt that restoration of the Executive will unlock a great amount Rob Roberts: Does my right hon. Friend agree that of that potential. Will he also explain the benefits that this Conservative Government have demonstrated their the Northern Ireland economy will receive from being commitment to strong devolved government and funding part of the fifth largest economy in the world—that of for all of our nations within this United Kingdom? the United Kingdom? Julian Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we Mr Walker: My right hon. Friend speaks with enormous have delivered in Northern Ireland, Scotland and , knowledge of this area. She is absolutely right: Northern and we are delivering on our commitments to the Union. Ireland’seconomy benefits enormously from its membership of the United Kingdom, and there will be new opportunities John Lamont: Over the past few years, this House has for Northern Ireland as we trade more globally and made a number of important decisions on very important strike new free trade deals around the world. devolved areas of government in Northern Ireland. Does the Secretary of State agree that locally elected “New Decade, New Approach” Agreement politicians in Northern Ireland are best placed to make those local decisions?

5. (Blaydon) (Lab): What discussions he Julian Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Ensuring that the Good Friday institutions are retained allocation of funding to the Northern Ireland Executive and enhanced was an absolute priority of the UK for the implementation of the “New Decade, New Government, and Northern Ireland is best served by Approach” agreement. [900564] the power-sharing agreement that is in place.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian PaulGirvan(SouthAntrim)(DUP):AstableGovernment Smith): Following the restoration of the institutions, I needs confidence in the community. A Northern Ireland have of course been in frequent contact with the Chancellor Minister was mentioned in a recent programme on and other Government colleagues to discuss the “New the horrific murder of Paul Quinn. If that Minister— Decade, New Approach” agreement. This agreement, Mr Conor Murphy—has any information relating to as we heard earlier, is supported by a generous financial that incident, he should make it known to both the Police package of £2 billion and also comes with strings Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda. attached, with reform required in health, education and justice. The new Finance Minister has already been to Julian Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend. I condemn to meet the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wholeheartedly that horrendous murder. As with any and me. crime, anyone with information should come forward immediately. Liz Twist: The “New Decade,New Approach”document was created not by the five parties in Northern Ireland Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): Will the but by the UK and Irish Governments. It has set high Secretary of State clarify his earlier answer in relation expectations among the public in Northern Ireland. to the Stormont House agreement? He did not refer to Will the Government commit generously to fully funding it in detail but talked in generalities. A commitment was this agreement? made recently in “New Decade, New Approach” and it was Government policy back in 2015. Is it still Government Julian Smith: As the hon. Lady knows, this agreement policy to fully deliver on Stormont House? has already delivered an end to the nurses’ strike in Northern Ireland. Having sat through hours of negotiation Julian Smith: What I have said is that we are going to and discussion, I say to her that it was always clear that deliver on the commitment of ending vexatious claims the parties had to prioritise what they wanted from against our armed forces and police officers. I have also Government. They are about to do that, and I look said that I will discuss with all Northern Ireland parties forward to hearing their plans in due course. how we will deliver on all aspects of the “New Decade, New Approach” document. Northern Ireland Executive Restoration Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Following 6. Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): What recent assessment on from that answer, can the Secretary of State confirm he has made of the effect on Northern Ireland of the that the specific assurances given on Armistice Day last restoration of devolved Government. [900565] year about the ending of repeat investigations in the 303 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 304 absence of compelling new evidence is entirely compatible Mr Walker: I think the point that the Chancellor of with the restoration of devolved government and all the Duchy of Lancaster was making is that we already that that entails? have a deal with the European Union; we have left the European Union with a deal, and that is good news for Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for all his Northern Ireland and the whole United Kingdom. work in this area. I was reading his Defence Committee’s 2017 report again at the weekend. I confirm that we can EU Customs Declarations deliver on the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s priority of ending vexatious claims against our armed 12. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Whether forces and the police, and we can deliver for victims and EU customs declarations will be undertaken in Belfast survivors in Northern Ireland. on goods imported from mainland UK after the UK has left the EU. [900571] Customs Regulations: Consistency The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): As I stated earlier, the deal 9. Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): What makes it crystal clear that Northern Ireland is in, and steps the Government is taking to ensure consistency in remains part of, the UK’s customs territory. It allows customs regulations throughout Northern Ireland and the UK to ensure unfettered market access for goods the rest of the UK. [900568] moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. The arrangements we introduce will reflect this. As Great Britain and Northern Ireland are in the same customs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern territory, no tariffs will be due on goods coming from Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): The deal makes clear that Great Britain and staying in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is in, and remains part of, the UK customs territory. It allows the UK to ensure unfettered Kerry McCarthy: The European Commission released market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland documents showing that EU import formalities on goods to Great Britain. The arrangements that we introduce imported from the EU, such as customs declarations, will reflect this. would end up taking place in Belfast. [Interruption.] I see that the Minister is struggling to hear what I am Wendy Chamberlain: The Minister talks about unfettered saying. Does he not think that the best way of ensuring access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great that there are no barriers to trade would be to remain in Britain, but according to a Treasury document leaked the customs union? during the election campaign, firms will have to complete exit summary declarations—at a minimum—so I ask Mr Walker: As the hon. Lady will recognise, there are him again: will firms have to complete customs declarations specific arrangements in the protocol that protect Northern for goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, Ireland’s position with regard to trade with both Ireland and if I ask that again in a future questions session, will and the United Kingdom. It is in the UK’s gift—and we he give the same answer? will deliver on our commitments—to ensure that Northern Ireland has unfettered access to whole of the UK internal Mr Walker: It is absolutely clear that the process of market. goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain Barnett Formula is within the control of the UK Government. We have made clear commitments with regard to ensuring unfettered 13. Chris Stephens ( South West) (SNP): access to the whole of the UK internal market. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on ensuring that additional funding allocated EU Withdrawal Act: Effect on the Union to Northern Ireland is subject to the Barnett formula. [900572] 10. Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): What assessment he has made of the effect of the The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 on Smith): Here we go again from the SNP, but here we go the Union. [900569] again with the answer. As there has been no increase in UK Government departmental spending in England, there are no Barnett consequentials.Like previous Northern The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland support packages, this funding addresses unique Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): The deal implemented in challenges, as was the case with city deals and support domestic law through the European Union (Withdrawal for farmers in Scotland and Wales. Agreement) Act 2020 means that we have left the EU as one United Kingdom. The protocol on Ireland and Chris Stephens: We welcome the return of the new Northern Ireland guarantees Northern Ireland’s integral Executive and new moneys for Northern Ireland, but place in the UK. This Government will never be neutral given the Prime Minister’s previously stated opposition in expressing our support for the Union and our steadfast to the Barnett formula, will the Secretary of State belief that Northern Ireland’s best interests are served confirm for the record whether the Government still within a strong United Kingdom. intend to abide by it?

Mr Carmichael: The Chancellor of the Duchy of Julian Smith: I can confirm that we absolutely plan to Lancaster told us yesterday that we do not need a deal abide by the Barnett formula. That is why, as part of with the European Union. If he is right, what will that this Government’s commitments, we are levelling up mean for the future of Northern Ireland in the Union? across the nations of the United Kingdom. 305 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 306

Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the Last Friday, this country left the European Union. Secretary of State for his answer. He will know that Britain’s place in the world is at a crossroads, and while farming and fisheries are an important part of our local there are different views across the country, we will be economy.He mentioned Barnett consequentials for farmers. holding the Government to account as the negotiations Can he give specific assurances that farmers and fishermen begin. My hope is that we will now truly come together will be looked after now that we have left the EU? to shape our common future and build an internationalist, diverse and outward-looking country. Indeed, we will Julian Smith: I can confirm that we will look after get an opportunity to do that when Britain hosts the everybody after we leave the EU, but I am also reticent, UN climate change conference, COP26, later this year. sitting so close to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in Despite the fact that we are at the 11th hour to save the making any commitments about the forthcoming Budget. planet, the former Tory Minister and now ex-president of COP26 Claire O’Neill said that there has been a Mr Speaker: Order. Before we start Prime Minister’s “huge lack of leadership and engagement” questions, I would like to draw the attention of the from this Government. What on earth did she mean? House to the fact that, for the first time, the House of Commons is starting a trial scheme to provide a British The Prime Minister: If we look at what the Government Sign Language interpretation of Prime Minister’squestions are achieving and already have achieved on climate online. A signed version of the session is available live change, it is quite phenomenal. The right hon. Gentleman on parliamentlive.tv. Everyone deserves to be able to will know that last year was the first year on record that follow such a key moment in the parliamentary week, renewables produced more of this country’s energy than and I am committed to making our proceedings as fossil fuels. He will know that 99% of all the solar accessible and clear as possible. I want to thank everyone panels that have achieved that miracle were installed who has worked hard to make this happen. since the Conservatives came to power in 2010. We are delivering for the people of this country. We are reducing greenhouse gases. All he would produce, I am afraid, is PRIME MINISTER a load of hot air. : The problem is, the Government’s The Prime Minister was asked— own figures show that they are missing the carbon budget —let alone 2050, it will be 2099 before this country meets Engagements net zero. Wediscovered this morning that two former Conservative Q1. [900620] Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con): If he leaders have also turned down the job formerly done by will list his official engagements for Wednesday 5 February. Claire O’Neill. It might be third time lucky if we make a The Prime Minister (): The whole House joint approach to the right hon. Member for Chingford will want to pay tribute to the police and all the emergency and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith)—perhaps services for their brave response to the terrorist incident he would like to take on that job. He is in the Chamber, in Streatham on Sunday. That appalling incident makes ready for it. plain the case for immediate action, and we will shortly The Prime Minister’s own former Minister said that we introduce emergency legislation to ensure that we do should have “clear actions”, “an agreed plan” and everything to protect the public. “a roadmap for the Year of Action”, This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues but we do not. Why is the Prime Minister failing so and others. In addition to my duties in this House, spectacularly to measure up to the scale of the climate I shall have further such meetings later today. crisis that this country and this planet are facing?

Dr Wallis: On behalf of my constituents in Bridgend, The Prime Minister: This is beyond satire. This is the may I warmly congratulate the Prime Minister on delivering first country, the first major economy in the world, to on the promise made to the British people that we will have set a target of being carbon neutral by 2050. It is leave the European Union? Will he reassure my constituents an absolutely fantastic thing. We are leading the world that, now that we are taking back control of our money, in our ambitions, and we will have a wonderful summit our borders and our laws, every effort will be made to in Glasgow, one of the most fantastic cities in our bring jobs and investment to areas such as Bridgend country, at the end of the year. that feel left behind? Jeremy Corbyn: This country is not meeting its target The Prime Minister: I can give my hon. Friend that and it is not due to meet its target, and I think the Prime assurance. With better education, better infrastructure Minister should recognise that. Even the Paris targets and high technology, we will unite and level up this are not enough. The UN says that we have just a decade country and deliver, as he is doing for the people of to change course if we want to avert a climate catastrophe. Bridgend. Let us look at something else his ex-Minister said—that the Prime Minister promised to “lead from the front” Jeremy Corbyn ( North) (Lab): We were all and guaranteed there would be “money” and “people”, appalled by the terror attack in Streatham on Sunday, but these promises are not close to being met. What on and I want to join the Prime Minister in paying tribute earth could she have been talking about? to the bravery and dedication of the police, security services and all the other emergency response staff for The Prime Minister: As so often, I am not entirely the way in which they dealt with a terrifying and terrible sure what the right hon. Gentleman is talking about, situation. because if we look at what this Government have actually 307 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 308 delivered—if we look at our Conservative policies of because he might recall saying that climate change is a backing green tech, of backing innovation, of supporting “primitive fear…without foundation”. The Prime Minister a dynamic market economy, which is the solution to of Bangladesh said: these problems—we have cut CO2 emissions in this country “Any consequence of failure to deliver a climate action plan since 2010, on 1990 levels, by 42%. That is an astonishing must fall equally on every country…the cost of our inaction is achievement, and at the same time, the economy has devastating for every living person”, grown by 73%, thanks to free-market, dynamic, one nation but our Prime Minister is failing on the biggest stage Conservativism. That is our approach. What is his? on the most important issue of our time. And now his former Minister has described preparations in Whitehall Jeremy Corbyn: The Prime Minister’s former Minister as said: “My advice to”—[Interruption.] Well, Government “Whitehall knot-tying, infighting and obfuscation, petty political Members may not like it, but I am going to read it: squabbles and black ops briefings”. “My advice to anybody to whom Boris is making promises— whether it is voters, world leaders, ministers, employees or…family No wonder the Prime Minister is shutting newspapers members—is to get it in writing, get a lawyer to look at it and out of No. 10 because he does not like the briefings. make sure the money is in the bank.” When will he face up to the climate emergency and take Not my words—hers. The Prime Minister’s failure in the action necessary to turn Glasgow into the turning government means this country will not meet its net point when this world will stop the levels of pollution zero target until 2099. This Government have banned and climate change we are having and go forward to a offshore wind, and this Government are funding billions sustainable future? Because his Government’s policies on fossil fuel projects abroad. Is this what his ex-Minister simply do not take us there. means by the “absence of leadership”? The Prime Minister: This Government are showing The Prime Minister: I think the grotesque failure of world leadership in tackling climate change, and we are the Leader of the Opposition to understand what is going to have a fantastic summit at Glasgow and I look happening in this country’s economy, let alone in the forward to it very much. fight against climate change, is quite mind-boggling. I The right hon. Gentleman mentions the media. Labour can inform him today not just that this country is finally conducted an inquest into what happened in the leading in producing the technology to generate offshore, general election, and they discovered in the Labour but that the north-east of this country leads the world in party that it was not the leadership that was at fault, producing and designing those fantastic turbines. It is and it was not Brexit; it was the media. They blame the because of that technological innovation that we are media for it. I do not blame them; I am a journalist—I able massively to expand our renewables. I can tell him love journalism. The people of this country do not —I think he may know this—that in 1990 this country blame the media; they can see that the media do their was 70% dependent on coal power. And, by the way, he best to represent the reality, and the reality is that this is would want to reopen the coalmines. Today, we are down a Government who are getting on with delivering 40 new to 3%, and by 2024 it will be zero. That is our plan. What hospitals and 20,000 more police, tackling climate change, is his? and £30,000 starting salaries for every teacher in the country. It is not about the presentation of the facts, it is Jeremy Corbyn: It was the Labour party that proposed about the reality, and the right hon. Gentleman cannot the climate change emergency motion to this House on cope with the reality. 1 May.The Prime Minister is quoting things that happened in 1990 and afterwards. During that time, of course, he Q2. [900621] Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con): As MP was a climate sceptic who did not say anything about for Broxtowe, I am absolutely delighted that funding this at all. is starting to flow to rebuild hospitals, such as the Poor leadership is nothing new to this Prime Minister. £5 million seed funding going to University When he was Foreign Secretary, he cut the number of Hospitals NHS Trust. Does the Prime Minister agree climate attachés across the world by 60% in our embassies, with me that this Conservative Government are committed and reportedly said to his staff, “You’re not going to to fulfilling their manifesto pledges and will deliver for spill this all out to the media, are you?” Considering his the NHS? monumental failure in advance of COP26, is it not really just a continuation of his climate change denial The Prime Minister: I agree passionately with my statements that he was regularly making up until 2015? hon. Friend and congratulate him on all he has done to campaign for the redevelopment of Queen’s Medical The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is Centre and Nottingham City Hospital, and of course I talking absolute nonsense. This Government are delivering am proud that that money is now flowing through to a fantastic agenda in tackling climate change; we lead those wonderful projects. the world in going for a zero-carbon approach. His own approach is utterly unclear and has indeed been condemned by the GMB as a disaster for the UK economy. He Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): May would confiscate people’s cars and prevent them from I add my grateful thanks to the police and emergency having foreign holidays. We have a plan that will allow services who had to react to the dreadful terrorist the UK economy to continue to grow and create jobs incident in Streatham? and that will tackle climate change. In the first few days of Brexit Britain this Prime Minister has sacked an official, taken an isolationist Jeremy Corbyn: I really do admire the Prime Minister’s approach to trade and banned the press from a Downing very vivid imagination, but unfortunately his vivid Street briefing; is he intentionally trying to impersonate imagination seems to have taken over from his memory, Donald Trump? 309 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 310

The Prime Minister: I do not think anybody listening tackling the county lines drugs gangs that are behind so to my speech on Monday could have mistaken it for much of the rise in violent crime. We will get that crime having anything but the most passionate internationalist, down. globalist, open, outward-looking approach. There is only one party in this country that has “nationalist” in Q9. [900628] (Ashford) (Con): The its name; that’s them. They would break up the most Prime Minister is conscious of the very widespread successful political partnership of the last 300 years. concern in this House about the plans to involve The right hon. Gentleman and his party should concentrate Huawei in 5G networks, concern that will have only on the day job and doing a better job for the people of been increased by the news this week that France is Scotland. building a new 5G network without the involvement of Huawei, following the lead of Australia. If they can do, Ian Blackford: The Prime Minister does not even we could do it. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that know the name of our party. The Prime Minister is on a he wants to reduce Huawei’s involvement over time, dangerous trajectory. Is it any wonder that poll after and can he give a timescale as to when that involvement poll shows majority support for Scottish independence? will hit zero? Our former US ambassador has made clear the threat of a Tory-Trump trade deal, warning that drug prices The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is certainly could soar. This would see increased pressure on our right that we are going to be reducing the involvement frontline services.It is clearer than ever that this Government of Huawei below the 35% market cap, but he is also and this Prime Minister are a threat to our NHS. This right in his general vision, which is one I entirely share. afternoon the SNP will present our NHS protection Bill What has happened, I am afraid, is a failure of like-minded to remove the very real threat of Tory privatisation. countries to produce an alternative to the 5G network Will the Prime Minister commit right now to supporting except that provided by high-risk vendors. That is why our legislation? we are now doubling the science budget. We will be working with some of the countries he mentions in The Prime Minister: I think it is very odd that the order to produce exactly that diversification in the market. right hon. Gentleman should denounce this country’s wish to have trade deals around the world when, as I Q4. [900623] Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): In November understand it, their proposal is to try to re-join the last year, the personal independence payment assessment European Union, and have a different currency, whose centre in my constituency was moved to Rhyl. No notice name they have yet to identify—perhaps they could has ever been given of that change. The next bus from elucidate that for the House—have a border at Berwick, Caernarfon to Rhyl takes 1 hour 44 minutes, or in a case and just after this country has taken back control of its in point in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the outstanding marine wealth to hand it back to Brussels. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), That is their policy.I really think they should concentrate the bus from Barmouth to Rhyl takes 5 hours 15 minutes. on doing a better job for the people of Scotland. This is the reality in the Prime Minister’s soaraway global Britain. Will he instruct his Minister to remedy Q5. [900624] (Mid Dorset and North this matter immediately? Poole) (Con): A strong society needs strong families, as our manifesto rightly said. It went on to say that we will The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for champion family hubs to serve vulnerable families. Will the point he raises. We do need to improve our bus the Prime Minister prioritise family hubs and ensure services across the whole country and that is why we are that they are linked to our early years strategy, the investing another £250 million immediately to improve troubled families programme and children’s services bus services. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has reform? many more such investments in the pipeline.

The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. That is why we have Q13. [900632] (Bolton North East) (Con): given another £165 million to extend the troubled families Sometimes we are the train, sometimes we are the programme this year. track, and just last week we have taken control back. Does the Prime Minister agree that now is the time for Q3. [900622] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) us to be the track for a Metrolink between (Lab): In the past 10 years, violent crime has risen and Bolton? 152% across the towns of Warwickshire. In the past two weeks in my constituency, two people have been killed The Prime Minister: Yes indeed, and that is why—thanks in two separate events and others remain seriously ill or partly to my hon. Friend’s urgings and his campaign—we injured. The Government have promised to reinstate have given the combined mayoral authority in Bolton 20,000 police officers, but is not the simple truth that it £300 million under the transforming cities deal, plus a is now our residents, through hikes in council tax of share of the £4.2 billion local transport fund. We have 12% last year and 6% this year, who are picking up the given it the tools—let us hope that it follows his urgings whole bill for the Old Bill, and that the Conservative and builds the Metrolink that he wants. party is no longer the party of law and order but the party of fear and disorder? Q6. [900625] Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): Last Friday I visited a school in my constituency, The Prime Minister: To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, and in 2020 the state of the school buildings was he is making an important point about violent crime. I Dickensian, with leaking roofs, rusty shower rooms and share his anger. That is why we are putting 20,000 more mouldy changing areas. When will the Government police on the streets. That is, above all, why we are now understand that the cost of education is high, but that it 311 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 312 is a worthy investment in the future of our schools? The Prime Minister: We are putting record investment Whether a child is a whizz kid or is needy, every child in the NHS—£33.9 billion—and a total of £12 billion is deserves to be at school in an excellent and inspiring now going into mental healthcare. That is a record sum. school building. Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): The Prime Minister: That is exactly whythis Government Following on from the question from my right hon. are investing a record £14 billion more in education, Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) about raising funding for primary schools to £4,000 per head Huawei, the Australian agencies analysed the involvement and £5,000 per head for every secondary school in the of any element of Huawei in their 5G system and country. We can only do that because we are running a determined that any involvement would lead to a major strong and dynamic market economy, and that is what risk of both sabotage and espionage. Can the Prime we are going to do. Minister give an undertaking that this country will lead the Five Eyes and NATO to create an alternative to Q14. [900633] (Eddisbury) (Con): To Huawei in the next two years? help to genuinely spread opportunity across our country, may I encourage my right hon. Friend to have The Prime Minister: Yes, we will of course do nothing a pre-Budget chat with his Chancellor about extending either to endanger our critical national security infra- the Government’s welcome plans to reduce national structure or to prejudice co-operation with Five Eyes insurance contributions for employers of ex-service partners, as my right hon. Friend has rightly suggested, personnel to other groups who find it difficult to get a and we will work to ensure that high-risk vendors good job, including care leavers, ex-offenders, those cannot dominate our market. with a disability and the long-term unemployed? Q10. [900629] Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Prime Minister: Yes, and I thank my hon. Friend The Prime Minister will know that under his Government and his family for everything that they do to encourage there has been a mass shortage of consultants across ex-offenders into work. I will indeed take up that suggestion the UK, leading to strain on our A&E services. How with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. We cut taxes will he make sure, especially now we have left the EU, on working people. We cut national insurance. The that consultants from overseas are encouraged to apply Opposition would hike taxes and keep people in welfare. for NHS visas to work in hospitals across the UK?

Q7. [900626] Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): The Prime Minister: We have instituted NHS visas in It has been two years since the Windrush scandal exposed order to attract talent from around the world, but I the wrongful detention and deportation of Commonwealth remind the hon. Lady, who I think speaks for a Welsh citizens. While we wait for the much delayed publication seat, that that is a devolved matter for the Welsh Labour of the lessons learned review, the Government plan to Government. deport 50 people to Jamaica by charter flight next week. Will the Prime Minister immediately suspend the flight Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): The Prime until the lessons learned review is published and the Minister has rightly put keeping our country safe and recommendations are implemented? the NHS at the heart of the Government’s plans. Will The Prime Minister: I think the whole House will he support my campaign for two new GP surgeries in understand that the people of this country will think it my beautiful market towns of Oakham and Melton, right to send back foreign national offenders. and can I remind him that he is always welcome if he is in search of a pork pie, Rutland Bitter or stilton? (Fareham) (Con): The terrorist incident last week reminds us that the rule of law remains a An hon. Member: He’d probably eat them all. fundamental foundation of our democratic constitution, but the explosion of judicial review and judicial activism The Prime Minister: That was rude. In response to has led to a censoriousness and litigiousness in our my hon. Friend, the short answer is yes and yes. society and has distorted questions that ought to remain exclusively political. How will my right hon. Friend Q11. [900630] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) ensure that Parliament remains the sovereign and legitimate (Lab): Last week it was revealed that my constituent source of law as we take back control? Errol Graham starved to death just months after the Department for Work and Pensions stopped his The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is a distinguished benefits. His emaciated body was only discovered when lawyer and she is right to stick up for the immense value bailiffs broke down his front door to evict him. The of our legal system. We must protect judicial review. It first priority of Government is to keep their citizens is a vital part of our system, but we should also ensure safe. How many more vulnerable benefit claimants will that it is not abused to conduct politics by other means have to die before this Government start to value their or to create needless delay. lives?

Q8. [900627] Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): For The Prime Minister: This is a tragic case, and the hon. many years, Bedford has been promised a new in-patient Lady is right to raise it. We have allocated £36 million to mental health facility, especially since provision at Weller improve safeguarding and decision making in cases like Wing was closed in 2017, yet patients are still travelling this, including through the creation of a new independent 20 miles to access services. Will the Prime Minister serious case panel, which will enable us to scrutinise and explain how that demonstrates the parity of esteem for learn lessons from such tragic cases. Weare also improving mental health care that his party promised in 2012? guidance for staff. 313 Oral Answers 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 314

Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): party is no stranger to receiving Russian donations, but Will my right hon. Friend join me in extending on behalf his repeated refusal to publish the report on Russian of the whole House our sympathy and best wishes to interference in UK democracy is unjustifiable and those injured in the Streatham attack last week? I unacceptable. Will he tell us clearly, without bluff and welcome his intention to legislate as a consequence of bluster, when the report will be published, why it has this attack. Does he agree that Her Majesty’s Government been delayed for so long, and when he will reconvene now have no option but to legislate in order to contain the Intelligence and Security Committee? the threat of ex-terrorist offenders when they still pose a threat to our country? The Prime Minister: The report will of course be published—as the hon. Gentleman knows full well—when The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. the Intelligence and Security Committee is reconstituted, Most people in this country would agree that the system and I think that his conspiratorial frame of mind is of automatic early release of terrorist offenders has run likely to be thoroughly disappointed by the results. out of road and that it is time to find a way, as we are doing, to make sure they are properly scrutinised by a Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): Commuters in Watford parole board or an equivalent. are fed up with poor rail services making them late for work in the mornings and late returning home at night Q12. [900631] Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): Thanks to see their families. Does the Prime Minister agree that to the tireless work of my predecessor, the late, great even new rail franchises that do not deliver cannot Paul Flynn, my hon. Friend the Member for Gower assume that they will keep their contracts if they do not (Tonia Antoniazzi), and the families of children with sort out those issues as soon as possible? intractable epilepsy, medical cannabis is now legal in the UK, so can the Prime Minister answer calls from the The Prime Minister: Absolutely, and that is why we families of very sick children who need medical cannabis are putting £48 billion into improving our railways as as to when this medicine will actually be available on the part of the infrastructure revolution. We should never NHS? Will he come to Portcullis House with me after forget that that lot over there would renationalise the this session to meet these families and to personally railways. When railways were nationalised, a quarter of assure them that he will do all he can to help? rail users deserted the network; after privatisation, rail use doubled. The Prime Minister: It was this Government and my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary who legalised Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): Last week we lost a medicinal cannabis, and I undertake that he will certainly political giant in Seamus Mallon. He was an outstanding be happy to meet the hon. Member’s constituents this parliamentarian, and a seeker of justice for everyone. afternoon. One injustice that burned in him until his dying day was the murder of Paul Quinn, who was beaten to death by (Rother Valley) (Con): Buses are an IRA gang in 2007. They broke every single bone in a vital lifeline for residents in Rother Valley, but too his body, to the extent that his mother could not place often First Bus is letting down the people of South rosary beads in his hands when he was in his coffin. In Yorkshire. Will the Prime Minister confirm that the the aftermath, the now Finance Minister Conor Murphy Government fully back buses as an essential way not said that Paul was linked to criminality. That was a lie. only to connect our villages, town and cities across the Does the Prime Minister agree that Conor Murphy north, but to unlock the potential of Rother Valley and should retract that lie, publicly apologise, and give any South Yorkshire? information that he has about Paul’s murder to the The Prime Minister: The Government are passionate Police Service of Northern Ireland? about buses. I assure my hon. Friend that we will massively improve our bus network, in the Rother Valley The Prime Minister: I hear the hon. Gentleman, and I above all, and I thank him for his lobbying. think that the whole House will have heard the passion with which he spoke about that injustice. I can tell him Q15. [900634] Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): that we will implement the Stormont House agreement We know that the Prime Minister has form in ducking in such a way as to provide certainty for veterans, and, democratic scrutiny at every opportunity and that his of course, justice for victims as well. 315 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Bills Presented 316

Points of Order FORENSIC SCIENCE REGULATOR AND BIOMETRICS STRATEGY BILL 12.32 pm Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): On a point of Darren Jones presented a Bill to make provision for order, Mr Speaker. The Home Office press team told the appointment of the Forensic Science Regulator; to journalists that all the people on a deportation flight to make provision about the Regulator and about the Jamaica were serious criminals. That seems not to have regulation of forensic science; to require the Secretary been true, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for of State to publish an annual strategy on biometric Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) said earlier, the technologies; to enable the Secretary of State to limit Government have not even received the lessons learned the use of such technologies when that is recommended report. in the strategy; and for connected purposes. The wife of a constituent of mine has said that he is Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on due to be deported in just six days’ time. He was Friday 24 April, and to be printed (Bill 11). convicted under the now unlawful joint enterprise rule, CO-OPERATIVE AND COMMUNITY BENEFIT SOCIETIES and was released after two months. His wife fears that (ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE INVESTMENT)BILL this stress will kill him because he has a heart problem. Mr Speaker, how can I get the Home Secretary to take Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) this seriously and to be truthful about the people who Anna McMorrin, supported by Jim McMahon, Preet are due to be on the deportation flight, so that we can Kaur Gill, Gareth Thomas, Alex Sobel, Rosie Duffield, halt it until we establish the true facts of the situation? James Gray, Philip Dunne, , Alex Chalk, Caroline Lucas and Ben Lake, presented a Bill to enable Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for giving notice co-operative and community benefit societies to raise of her point of order. As she knows, it is not a point of external share capital for the purpose of making order for me personally, but I think that the whole environmentally sustainable investment; to make associated House has sympathy with what she has said, I am sure provisions about restricting conversion to company status that Ministers have heard it, and I am sure that someone and the distribution of capital on winding-up; and for will look into it as a matter of urgency. connected purposes. Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): On a point Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on of order, Mr Speaker. During Prime Minister’s Question Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 12). Time On 22 January, responding to a question from the BOTULINUM TOXIN AND COSMETIC FILLERS Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister said: (CHILDREN)BILL “Universal credit has in fact succeeded in getting 200,000 people into jobs.”—[Official Report, 22 January 2020; Vol. 670, c. 294.] Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Correspondence that I received yesterday from Sir David , supported by Alberto Costa, Carolyn Norgrove, the chair of the UK Statistics Authority—a Harris, Judith Cummins, Jackie Doyle-Price, Caroline copy of which has now been published on the authority’s Nokes, Sarah Champion, Mr , Dr Dan Poulter website—shows that the Prime Minister’s claim was not and , presented a Bill to make provision correct. The 200,000 figure represents the Department about the administration to persons under the age of 18 for Work and Pensions’ estimate of the predicted impact of botulinum toxin and of other substances for cosmetic on employment once universal credit has been rolled purposes; and for connected purposes. out, rather than the effect so far. Please will you advise Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on me, Mr Speaker, on how the Prime Minister could set Friday 15 May, and to be printed (Bill 13). the record straight? ANIMAL WELFARE (SENTENCING)BILL Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Member for giving me Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) notice of her intention to raise that point of order. It is Chris Loder presented a Bill to make provision about not a matter for the Chair to police the accuracy of the mode of trial and maximum penalty for certain statements in the Chamber, but she has rightly raised offences under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. the issue, and her opinion has now been put on record. I Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on am sure that there are other ways of raising it if she is Friday 12 June, and to be printed (Bill 14). still not happy. NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE BILL BILLS PRESENTED Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Paula Barker, supported by Mike Amesbury, Mick EDUCATION (GUIDANCE ABOUT COSTS OF SCHOOL Whitley, Navendu Mishra, Ian Byrne, Apsana Begum, UNIFORMS)BILL , Rachel Hopkins, Beth Winter and Grahame Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Morris, presented a Bill to make provision about the Mike Amesbury, supported by Emma Hardy, Kevin national minimum wage; and for connected purposes. Hollinrake, Ms Marie Rimmer,Justin Madders, Stephanie Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Peacock, , Layla Moran, Mrs Sharon Friday 26 June, and to be printed (Bill 15). Hodgson, Paula Barker, and , presented a Bill to make provision for guidance to SEWAGE (INLAND WATERS)BILL schools about the costs aspects of school uniform policies. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Philip Dunne, supported by Theo Clarke, Fay Jones, Friday 13 March, and to be printed (Bill 10). Caroline Lucas, Scott Mann, Mr Andrew Mitchell, 317 Bills Presented 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Bills Presented 318

Anne Marie Morris, Stephanie Peacock, , TRADE AGREEMENTS (EXCLUSION OF NATIONAL Derek Thomas, Sir Charles Walker and Bill Wiggin, HEALTH SERVICES)BILL presented a Bill to place a duty on water companies to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) ensure that untreated sewage is not discharged into Peter Grant, supported by Dr Philippa Whitford, rivers and other inland waters; and for connected purposes. Paula Barker, Ben Lake, Claire Hanna, Caroline Lucas, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Stephen Farry,Neale Hanvey and Joanna Cherry,presented Friday 10 July, and to be printed (Bill 16). a Bill to exclude requirements relating to National Health Services procurement, delivery or commissioning PRISONS (SUBSTANCE TESTING)BILL from international trade agreements; to require the consent of the House of Commons and the devolved Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) legislatures to international trade agreements insofar as Sir Charles Walker, on behalf of Dame Cheryl Gillan, they relate to the National Health Services of England, presented a Bill to make provision about substance Scotland and Wales and Health and Social Care in testing in prisons and similar institutions. Northern Ireland; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 15 May, and to be printed (Bill 17). Friday 26 June, and to be printed (Bill 22).

UNPAID WORK EXPERIENCE (PROHIBITION) (NO. 2) CONTROL OF ROADWORKS BILL BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr Mark Francois, supported by Sir David Amess, Alex Cunningham, supported by , and Mr Marcus Fysh, presented a Bill Chris Stephens, Wayne David, Mike Amesbury, Mike to set penalties for overrunning roadworks; to make Hill, and , presented a requirements regarding the duration, timing and Bill to prohibit unpaid work experience exceeding four coordination of roadworks; and for connected purposes. weeks; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 June, and to be printed (Bill 18). Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 23).

MENTAL HEALTH ADMISSIONS (DATA)BILL EDUCATION AND TRAINING (WELFARE OF CHILDREN) BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Dr , supported by , Ms Harriet Harman, Mr Gareth Bacon, Greg Smith and Liz Twist, on behalf of Mary Kelly Foy, supported by Stephen Timms, presented a Bill to make provision for Liz Twist, Ian Mearns, Kate Osborne, Mr Tanmanjeet the collection and publication of statistics on mental Singh Dhesi, Mr Virendra Sharma, Claudia Webbe, Ian health hospital admissions; and for connected purposes. Byrne, Taiwo Owatemi, Nadia Whittome, Beth Winter and Rachel Hopkins, presented a Bill to impose duties Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on on certain education and training providers in relation Friday 30 October, and to be printed (Bill 19). to safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on BRITISH LIBRARY BOARD (POWER TO BORROW)BILL Friday 13 March, and to be printed (Bill 24). Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) REGISTERS OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL Bim Afolami presented a Bill to provide the British Library Board with a power to borrow money. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Mr Andrew Mitchell, supported by Kevin Hollinrake, Friday 13 March, and to be printed (Bill 20). Amanda Solloway,Dame Margaret Hodge, Philip Dunne, Alison McGovern, Alex Chalk, Dr Philippa Whitford, Gary Sambrook, and Meg Hillier,presented PUBLIC INTEREST DISCLOSURE (PROTECTION)BILL a Bill to make provision about the keeping and maintenance Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) of registers of births and deaths; and for connected Dr Philippa Whitford, supported by Peter Grant, purposes. Alison Thewliss, Mr Andrew Mitchell, Dr Julian Lewis, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Kevin Hollinrake and Wera Hobhouse, presented a Friday 15 May, and to be printed (Bill 25). Bill to provide protections for whistleblowers; to create offences relating to the treatment of whistleblowers MEAT (GRADING AND LABELLING)BILL and the handling of whistleblowing cases; to establish Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) an independent body to protect whistleblowers and Bill Wiggin, supported by Mrs Pauline Latham, whistleblowing, in accordance with the public interest; Mr , James Gray, Ben Lake, Andrew to make provision for that body to set, monitor and Griffith, Kevin Hollinrake, Mark Pritchard, Andrew enforce standards for the management of whistleblowing Bowie, , Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger and cases, to provide disclosure and advice services, to direct Philip Dunne, presented a Bill to establish a meat grading whistleblowing investigations and to order redress of system incorporating taste and eating quality; to define detriment suffered by whistleblowers; to repeal the Public the term “grass-fed” when used in meat labelling and Interest Disclosure Act 1998; and for connected purposes marketing; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 April, and to be printed (Bill 21). 29 January 2021, and to be printed (Bill 26). 319 Bills Presented 5 FEBRUARY 2020 320

NHS 111 SERVICE (TRAINING AND CLINICAL Opposition Day OVERSIGHT)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) [2ND ALLOTTED DAY] Kate Osamor, supported by Feryal Clark, Taiwo Owatemi, Claudia Webbe, Nadia Whittome, Preet Kaur Gill, Florence Eshalomi, Yasmin Qureshi, Navendu Local Government Finance Mishra, Apsana Begum, Bambos Charalambous and Mr Speaker: I advise the House that I have selected Tulip Siddiq, presented a Bill to set training standards the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. for NHS 111 service operators; to require NHS 111 services to be overseen by clinical advisors; and for connected purposes. 12.40 pm Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I beg Friday 10 July, and to be printed (Bill 27). to move, That this House notes that the Government’s proposed changes THIRD SECTOR ORGANISATIONS (IMPACT AND SUPPORT) to local authority funding will dramatically downgrade the importance of deprivation in deciding the distribution of funding to local BILL authorities and will have a devastating effect on local adult social Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) care funding; further notes that proposed changes will cause even presented a Bill to establish a body to greater reductions in foundation funding and children’s social assess the benefits and effectiveness of third sector care; and calls on the Government to scrap its Review of Local Authorities’ Relative Needs and Resources and to ensure that organisations and provide support to such organisations; local authorities are properly funded through a fairer system that and for connected purposes. properly takes account of deprivation, need and differing council Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on tax bases. Friday 11 September, and to be printed (Bill 28). The state of local government finance is desperate. Our councils are not just at breaking point; many of ASYLUM SEEKERS (PERMISSION TO WORK) them are broken. The Government’s so-called fair funding Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) review could be about to make matters worse for some Patrick Grady,on behalf of Carol Monaghan, supported of them. by Martin Docherty-Hughes, Kenny MacAskill, Alyn Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): Smith, Patricia Gibson, Anne McLaughlin, Angela My hon. Friend is making an excellent start to his Crawley,Richard Thomson, Alan Brown, Kirsten Oswald, speech. How many councils does he think will fall like Dr Philippa Whitford and Patrick Grady, presented a Northamptonshire County Council, in the next five years? Bill to make provision for granting permission to work to asylum seekers who have waited six months for a Andrew Gwynne: Of course that is the worry, because decision on their asylum application; and for connected several councils are edging ever closer to the cliff edge, purposes. and the number that will drop over that cliff edge is very Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on much dependent on the actions of this Government. If Friday 27 November and to be printed (Bill 29). they honour their word and put resources into the local communities that need them most, hopefully we can avoid more Northamptonshires. However,if they continue along the lines that I fear they will, removing resources from the areas with the greatest need but the least ability to raise their own finances, I fear for the future of the local government sector.

Mr Clive Betts ( South East) (Lab): I am sure my hon. Friend has had a chance to read the Local Governance Research Unit’s excellent annual survey of local government finances, which shows that 10% of councils are worried that their resources will be insufficient to meet their statutory duties. We could reach that clear tipping point unless the Government act.

Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will touch on that report later in my speech, but it highlights the impact of 10 years of cuts to our local councils and public services at a time of rising demand, particularly for adult social care and children’sservices—the expensive people-based services. Given that the councils with greatest social need and the worst health inequalities have a limited tax base to make up for any financial losses, the problem is that the so-called fair funding formula could be what tips them over the edge. I know that the Minister for the and Local Growth, the right hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (), will stand up and pronounce 321 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 322

[Andrew Gwynne] crime, we have to attribute much of that increase to the year-on-year cuts to local government finances, youth that the finance settlement that we are set to agree next services and youth justice? We should focus on investing Wednesday shows that he is investing in local services, in children’s provision, and especially in education and but he is a lone voice in saying so. That shows just how work opportunities. detached the Government are from the sector that they are here supposedly to represent, because the truth is Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I that since 2015—just five years—local government funding have been a Member long enough to remember the last across England has fallen by 32%. Labour Government introducing Total Place, under which all the responsible agencies—the police, the housing Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my associations, the local authorities and the central hon. Friend agree that local government is also fearful Government Departments—worked together to tackle of last week’s rumours that the Chancellor will ask many of these issues in the round. One of the devastating Departments to cut another 5% from their budgets? impacts of austerity over the past decade has been the breaking away from that collaboration, that partnership Andrew Gwynne: That is very worrying, and I hope approach, to a situation where each agency tends to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local cost-shunt. Those agencies are making cuts, so it becomes Government will stand up against it. Those of us who somebody else’s problem—they push it on to another have been a Member of this House for some time part of the public sector. will remember that the former Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Lord Pickles, Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) was only too keen to offer up the maximum cuts from (PC): The hon. Gentleman is making some important his Department, meaning that local government in England points about the situation in England. He may be aware was the part of the public sector that was clobbered the of the fiscal analysis by the Wales Governance Centre at hardest. Cardiff University, which shows that there has been It is even worse than the 32% fall over five years about a £1 billion cut to local government finance in because, since the Conservative party entered government Wales over the past 10 years. I know this is a block grant in 2010, funding for local councils has been slashed by situation, and that the block grant has been reduced in more than half. We have all seen the consequences of real terms, but Labour Ministers in Wales have decided that neglect: the unrepaired roads, the uncollected bins, to swing the axe at local government. the cuts to adult learning and the closed children’s centres. Under Conservative leadership, almost a fifth Andrew Gwynne: As the hon. Gentleman states, the of our libraries have been forced to close because of block grant is set by this place, so the Welsh Assembly cuts to funding. One of the previous Labour Government’s Government have had to ensure that their spending greatest achievements, the Sure Start programme, has meets the money granted by . I have been had its funding slashed in half, forcing as many as sent a budget briefing from the Welsh Government 1,000 Sure Start children’s centres to close since 2010. about their intentions not only to increase the adult social care budget in the year ahead, but to give a real-terms Kevin Hollinrake ( and Malton) (Con): The increase in local government spending. I welcome that hon. Gentleman is worried about the impact on the overwhelmingly, because Welsh councils, like English local authorities he mentioned because they cannot councils, need good public services. raise as much money through council tax. Does he accept that the shire districts get much less local government Mr Kevan Jones: Durham County Council has lost funding, so their council tax has to be much higher? It is £224 million in core spending since 2010, and the only right that we consider a fairer funding formula, so Government’s direction of travel has been to move the that everybody pays a fair amount and receives a fair expenditure on to the council tax precept. The problem amount. for is that more than 50% of its properties are in band A so, irrespective of how much Andrew Gwynne: I will come on to the specific point the council tax is put up, it will do nothing to plug the of funding adult social care. gap left by the reduction in core spending. I will happily provide the statistics, but , Knowsley, Blackpool, and Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend is right on are the five most deprived local authorities that. Councils cannot change their council tax base in England. Since 2010, Blackpool has lost 21% of its overnight. If their properties are predominantly in bands funding; Knowsley 25%; Liverpool 23%; Kingston upon A and B, that is the council tax base for that local area. Hull 22%; and Middlesbrough 21%. A 5% maximum Governments of all political persuasions over the years increase in council tax in each of those local authorities have always recognised that not every council has the will raise nothing like their loss of grant funding. That same baseline and the same ability to bring in enough is not fair. If the fair funding review is carried out in the money for basic, decent statutory public services, which way that the Local Government Association suggests it is why we had the rate support grant in the 1980s and might be, those most deprived communities will see the revenue support grant from the 1990s onwards. even greater reductions in funding, and we know they Those things were in recognition of the need for a will never be able to plug the gap through council tax redistribution of funding to areas that cannot generate alone. enough funding from council tax and business rates alone.

Janet Daby ( East) (Lab): I thank my hon. Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): May I Friend for speaking about the cuts to children’s centres. gently say to the hon. Gentleman that not all deprivation Does he agree that when we hear about rising knife is found in urban areas, and that places such as Cornwall, 323 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 324 which have had a raw deal on central Government wrong, not only that the vulnerable have been hit as funding because of the formula put in place by the hard as they have, but that reels from those Labour party, have for decades received lower levels of cuts while the leafy shires of Surrey get yet more? funding, despite being some of the poorest parts of England? It is this Government, with the fair funding Andrew Gwynne: I agree with my hon. Friend, who review, who are going to put that right. has been a champion for not only local government across the country, but that great city of Birmingham, Andrew Gwynne: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman fighting the devastation that has befallen that great city. does not understand the fair funding review. I have On the LGA’s own statistics, a further £48 million in never said that deprivation exists only in urban areas. adult social care funding could be removed from Deprivation is a fundamental part of the formula that Birmingham to add to the devastation that has already exists now,so if there is deprivation in his constituency—and hit his city. That is why the fair funding review is so it is more likely that there is—his council will get an unfair and wrong. element of formula attributed to that deprivation. But According to the King’s Fund—so this is not coming to take money from some of the poorest communities just from the LGIU—by the end of the next decade the in the country in order to give it to the richest communities number of older people who need adult social care in the country, which have the ability to raise sufficient support is predicted to increase to 4.1 million. That is locally, is not one nation—it is reverse redistribution, piling even more cost pressures on our local councils, and it is penalising the poorest councils and the poorest which is why the LGIU also highlights the increase in communities. He should reflect on what he has said. financial pressures on children’s services, as adult social care is only one part of the very costly equation that is Several hon. Members rose— people-based services—the services that councils, by Andrew Gwynne: I will give way a little later on, law and by right, have to provide. Mrs Smith, on any because I have been generous so far. street of any town in any shire, thinks that her council tax increases are going towards ever-reducing bin services, The Tory-led Local Government Association estimates and she sees parks not being maintained and libraries that if we continue on this current course, the funding closing. That is because she never sees the impact on gap will grow to £8 billion by 2025. That is an £8 billion adult social care and children’s services. gap not to rebuild our services after 10 years of cuts, but just to stay still: just to prevent already heavily stretched On children’s services, the LGIU argues that councils services from falling apart under the weight of growing are no longer able to shield vulnerable children from the demand, rising costs and wage inflation. I reiterate: it is worst of the budgetary pressures that councils are facing. £8 billion more needed just to stay as we are today. So, More than one in three councils said their inability to even if this £8 billion funding was provided, in full, by protect vulnerable children was their biggest concern. 2025, it would barely keep the sector’s head above water, We know that there are unprecedented demand pressures allowing councils to continue delivering services at current on children’s services. The number of children in care levels, with no capacity to meet the growing need for has hit a 10-year high, but without the funding to support services. It would be interesting to know whether the that increase in demand. Minister considers that a sustainable way to finance the From 2009 to 2019, the number of section 47 inquiries— sector. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield that is, where a local authority believes that a child is South East (Mr Betts), the Chair of the Select Committee, suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm—has has mentioned in an intervention, research published increased by 139%. The Local Government Association today by the Local Government Information Unit shows warns that children’sservices alone are facing a £3.5 billion that 73% of councils would not agree with Ministers. funding gap by 2025. It is these pressures on people-based The Chief Executive of the LGIU has warned: services that are pushing many councils towards the “Our social care system is no longer on the edge, it’s fallen off cliff edge, and sticking plasters will no longer suffice. the cliff. Our children’s services aren’t at breaking point, they’re The Minister will no doubt say that he gave £1 billion to broken.” be shared by adult social care, children’s services and That has real-life consequences: Age UK estimates provision for NHS winter pressures. That is not enough. that in the past two years alone, 74,000 older people died waiting for care. An average of 81 people a day, Kevin Hollinrake: We have discussed this before, but equivalent to three every hour, died before they received does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should have the care that they needed. This is not a political point; it cross-party talks on adult social care? One of the Select should shame each and every one of us, on whichever Committee’s key recommendations was that adult social side of this House we sit. Age UK states that 1.4 million care funding should be removed entirely from local older people are not getting the help that they need to authority pressures and we should adopt a German-style carry out essential tasks such as washing themselves, social insurance system. Does he agree that we should dressing and going to the toilet. That is not just have cross-party discussions and that that should be unacceptable; it is appalling. It is a stain on this House—on one of the options on the table? all of us—and on our country. Andrew Gwynne: As I have said in previous debates, it Jack Dromey (Birmingham, ) (Lab): My is incumbent on the Government to come forward with hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Birmingham proposals. We are still waiting for the Green Paper City Council and the great city of Birmingham have promised in the last Parliament and the Parliament been hit hard by the biggest cuts in local government before that. The fact of the general election is that the history—cuts of £700 million—with children’s centres hon. Gentleman’s party is in power and it is incumbent and youth clubs closing, and social care and special needs on Ministers to come to this House to explain how they provision being cut. Does he agree that it is fundamentally are going to try to resolve this crisis in adult social care. 325 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 326

[Andrew Gwynne] see, on average, a 13% cut, while the wealthiest communities in England will see their budgets grow by 13%. This We will sit down with Ministers. We have our own model was devised back in 2014 at the height of coalition ideas. We will share ideas with the Government. We will austerity; perhaps it was then politically expedient for come to some kind of consensus if we can. But of the Conservatives to divert funds to leafy Tory shires at course the history on this is not great; I remember the the expense of more deprived metropolitan and urban formerHealthSecretary,AndyBurnham,havingcross-party communities. But given that the Prime Minister’s claim talks in the dying days of the Labour Government, and that austerity is over, divvying up an ever-shrinking pot it looked as though we were getting agreement with the differently is so last Parliament—in fact, it is so the last shadow Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, and the two Parliaments before the last Parliament—and it is Liberal Democrat spokesperson—until the general election certainly no longer politically expedient. came, and then there were posters everywhere saying, Last week, I wrote a letter, with council leaders, to the “Labour’s death tax” and “Andy Burnham’s death tax”. red wall Members on the Government Benches, urging We have to move away from that and tackle this issue them to speak out against a plan that will see cuts to seriously. adult social care—one of the largest cost pressures James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): Further to facing all local councils, particularly those in deprived the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for areas. I know from some of the responses that Government Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), a few weeks ago Members have given to the press that the calculations I intervened on the shadow Health spokesman, the hon. from the LGA have been dismissed as speculation. I say Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), to to those Members that this analysis was produced by ask whether he would support social insurance. He the cross-party LGA and was released officially to flatly ruled it out. All we are asking is that if we are support councils as they plan their budgets in the coming going to have cross-party talks, surely all credible options years. The analysis that the LGA produced was also should be on the table. informally shared with MHCLG, whose officials privately confirmed that the assumptions in the analysis are sound. Andrew Gwynne: I reiterate what I just said: it is for This new research is also consistent with what we the Conservatives to come forward with their proposals. already knew. Last year, researchers in Liverpool warned We will view those in the round with other ideas and see that removing deprivation from the funding formula whether we can reach a consensus. I know that there are would see the 20% most deprived areas lose £390 million different views on both sides of the House about a system a year. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned that of insurance, but I am not personally in favour of that. I removing deprivation from the formula would likely hit think that actually the easiest and quickest way to resolve councils in inner London and most other urban areas, the social care crisis in local government is to make sure like Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Bristol and that we fund social care through local government. Kingston upon Hull, where deprivation tends to be not I want to come on to the issue that could make the just concentrated but over-concentrated. The IFS states situation that I have set out even worse for many of the that same local authorities that are already at breaking point. “proposals by the government to base assessments of councils’ The research from the Local Government Association needs for spending on services like homelessness prevention, has exposed the so-called fair funding review for what it public transport, waste collection, libraries, and planning on really is: a cynical plan that risks leaving more sick population only would shift funding from councils serving deprived and vulnerable people without the care they need. If areas to those serving more affluent areas.” implemented in the way that the LGA has calculated—and It has also warned that the evidence base to justify this MHCLG apparently told the LGA that its assumptions decision is weak. were along the lines that the Ministry is going—then Mr Kevan Jones: Will my hon. Friend give way? funding for social care for older people is due to drop in London, the west midlands, the north-east and the Andrew Gwynne: I will give way one last time. north-west, while the south-east and the south-west will see an increase in many areas. For young adults, the Mr Jones: It is not just about social care. County largest decreases will be seen in the north-west, the Durham, under the formula that is proposed, is likely to north-east, Yorkshire, the east midlands and west midlands, lose £39 million in public health funding, whereas Surrey while the south-east and east of England will see some County Council will actually increase its budget by of the largest increases. £14 million. I look forward to my new Conservative This research from the Tory-led LGA has shown that colleagues in County Durham arguing how that can be many of the areas that voted for, and put their trust in, fair to County Durham. the Conservatives for the first time in 2019—the so-called Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend is absolutely red wall seats—will see some of the largest cuts to social right. It is not just about social care, but the LGA has care funding if the plans go ahead in the way that has published the fair funding review calculations based been outlined. Indeed, three quarters of those red wall on social care. It has also done the calculations for constituencies—the seats that gave the Prime Minister children’s services, for the foundation formula and for his majority—will see millions of pounds of funding the public health grant. I would hazard a guess that diverted from their hard-pressed councils to another they show exactly the same trends. He is absolutely part of the country. The LGA Labour group estimates right about County Durham, because the LGA’s analysis that that is £300 million of funding that will be funnelled shows that the change in funding there since 2015 alone from less affluent councils to the more affluent communities. is already 29% down. The change in funding from But even worse than both those factors is the effect the fair funding formula would equate to another that there will be on the most deprived communities. 6.71% reduction—a £10,327,679 cut—for his constituency. The 10 most deprived local authorities in England will Contrast that with Beaconsfield, for example, where 327 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 328 there would be a 17.5% increase—nearly an extra available for social care in 2020-21; notes that the Government £15 million of funding. That is not fair by any stretch of has listened to calls for a simpler, up-to-date, evidence based the imagination. funding formula and has committed to consult on all aspects of the formula review in spring 2020; further welcomes the Government’s The issue is really straightforward for the Government. ambition to empower communities and level up local powers If they do not agree with the analysis, the response is through a future Devolution White Paper; and welcomes the simple: follow up on the promise made by the Under- Government’s progress on this agenda already with the £3.6bn Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Towns Fund and eight Devolution Deals now agreed.”. Government, the hon. Member for Thornbury and As we entered a new decade, this country voted Yate (Luke Hall), at the LGA conference in January emphatically for a new Government and a new approach. and publish the exemplifications of the funding formula People discarded the politics of division and deadlock so that we can see exactly what the impact is. It really is that had beset the previous Parliament for so many that simple. If the LGA assumptions are now wrong, years. It was the people who gave a new mandate to my show us. Let councils, councillors and Members of this right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to drive forward House see the exemplifications; we will then know how his vision for our nation—a vision that will see communities fair the fair funding review is to the different parts of levelled up and opportunity spread equally throughout England. the country, just as talent is already spread. We will level My worry is that what we know is just the thin end of up every single nation of the United Kingdom and the wedge. We know that the five least-deprived local drive forward our Government’s agenda. authorities have, on average, seen their budgets grow—the What have we heard today from the Labour party least deprived local authority, Wokingham, saw its budget and the Opposition spokesman? They have learned grow by 18%—but that has been gained at the expense nothing from their December drubbing—nothing from of the most deprived. The top 5% most deprived local the people of Redcar in the north-east, nothing from authorities face cuts of 22% on average. That is not fair. the people of Heywood and Middleton in Greater As I said at the start of my contribution, we know that Manchester and nothing from the people of the Don those same local authorities do not have the same Valley in Yorkshire. Each of those areas, which had ability to raise income from council tax. beenLabour—[Interruption.]IknowthatLabourMembers This is a scandal for those who claim to be one nation do not want to talk about the general election, which Conservatives. I genuinely believe that across all political was the worst Labour performance for a generation, but parties not one of us stood for election to come to this we have a mandate and I intend to set out what that place and introduce measures that will make life more mandate means, in line with our amendment. Each of difficult not just for the people we represent but for the those areas, which had been Labour for a generation, poorest communities in this country. I like to give the rejected the politics that we heard from the Opposition benefit of the doubt even to Members from the Conservative today. party, so I hope that today Members from all parties Let us not forget—although I bet he wishes we would— will support our motion, or at the very least intensively that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew and strenuously lobby Ministers and take a stand against Gwynne) was the general election campaign co-ordinator what could cause misery for their constituents. This will for the Labour party. Like a Japanese soldier emerging be a major test of Conservative Members’ commitment out of the jungle decades after they have lost the battle, to their constituents. I am sure that local people will not he has chosen to return to Labour’s failed policies of forgive or forget if they fail to stand up for those who division and deadlock. We heard him pit urban areas put their trust in them at the election, knowing what we against rural areas, towns against cities and local already know. government against national Government. It is absolutely Finally, I say this to Ministers: be open, be transparent clear that only the Conservative party— and publish the exemplifications. If they are anything like what the LGA, the LGIU and other local government Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Will the Minister experts fear, scrap the scheme and go back to the give way? drawing board. A fair funding review that is genuinely fair will have our support. Jake Berry: Not at the moment. It is absolutely clear— 1.13 pm Ms Brown: Why not? The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth (Jake Berry): I hope you will bear with me a Jake Berry: I will give way in a moment. moment, Mr Speaker, because this is the first time that I have had the opportunity to speak in a debate with you It is absolutely clear that only the Conservative party in the Chair as Speaker. As the MP for an adjoining has a mandate to unite our nation as we move forward constituency and a fellow Lancastrian, I congratulate from a decade of recovery to a decade of renewal. you on the amazing start you have made as Speaker. You have restored gravitas to the office of Speaker and Ms Brown rose— you are doing an excellent job. I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from Jake Berry: With the greatest of pleasure, I give way “House” to the end of the Question and add: to the hon. Lady. “welcomes the Government’s provisional local government finance settlement, which will deliver the biggest year-on-year real terms Ms Brown: I am really grateful to the right hon. increase in councils’ spending power for a decade; recognises the Gentleman for giving way. Can he let me know where pressures on adult and children’s social care as well as critical the Secretary of State is while we are discussing local local government services, and welcomes the additional £1.5 billion government finance? I am grateful to see the right hon. 329 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 330

[Ms Lyn Brown] whether second-tier councils, particularly city councils with small amounts of space with which to benefit from Gentleman in his place, giving us a speech, but I would the new homes bonus, could be given special consideration? quite like to hear from the organ grinder what is going Also, could he raise the council tax referendum limit to happen with local government finance. from 2% to 3%? That would help us to raise funds locally. Jake Berry: I am disappointed that the hon. Lady thinks I am the monkey. Jake Berry: I will get on shortly to the issue of council tax referendum limits. We continue to engage Ms Brown indicated dissent. with colleagues across our local government family, on both sides of the political divide. If we have not engaged Jake Berry: Well, I am not the organ grinder, as she directly with Gloucester yet, I will ensure that we do so has pointed out, so I must be the monkey. We have a as part of our discussions. broad team, and given that a lot of the claims made by Building on the mandate given in December to my the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish relate directly right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, I want to set out to the north of England, I think that as the Minister for how we will unite and level up our nation. We will the Northern Powerhouse I am the most appropriate devolve more power, money and influence back to Minister to respond to this debate. communities across England. We will restore opportunity to our towns through our £3.6 billion towns fund, and Sir (New Forest West) (Con): My we will work with every single local authority to make right hon. Friend’s mandate extends to God’s own sure that they are the engines for economic growth in county of Hampshire, where we are very much looking their community. This will be supported by the most forward to the fair funding review on the grounds that generous financial settlement for a decade, while always we get to spend £1,650 per person, but we look north to ensuring that they have the resources to support the the local authorities that have been enumerated today most vulnerable in society. that have an additional £500 per person. We spend— This Government are proudly the father and mother Mr Speaker: Order. Sir Desmond, you are usually of English devolution to our regions. In the past three very good and ask the shortest of questions and make years, we have seen the creation of powerful metro the briefest of interventions. I do not know what has Mayors in Liverpool, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, gone wrong but I am sure the Minister will have a grasp Sheffield, Manchester, Newcastle North of Tyne, the of what you were saying. West of England, the West Midlands and Tees Valley. Together, those mayoral combined authorities have access Jake Berry: As my right hon. Friend knows, the fair to £6.35 billion of investment funding, more than £1 billion funding review is under development, so we are unable of the transforming cities fund, and £1.5 billion of the to say today whether Hampshire will benefit more than adult education budget. any other area of the country, but his point about We understand, however, that it is not possible to having a fair funding review that makes sure that we measure how well devolution is working simply by accurately reflect need throughout the country is absolutely looking at how much money is being received. The real right. power of devolution comes through putting power back in the hands of local people, and that is why devolution Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): I am works. confused on that exact point. The new funding formula has not been published, yet the Labour Front-Bench Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I am team claim to know exactly what it is going to be. They fully supportive—as we were during the coalition—of also claim that the shires are going to benefit, yet the Government’s plans to devolve power to the regions Leicestershire and Rutland are the worst funded in the of England and to local authorities. Does the right hon. country, so the idea that the shires will do best out of Gentleman agree, though, that if this is about local this is most inaccurate. Does my right hon. Friend agree? people making local decisions, they should not be forced to accept a Mayor or, if they are a rural community, a Jake Berry: I do agree. I wonder how much attention particular urban-type structure in order to get those the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish pays to his powers? horoscope, because that prediction that has as much accuracy as the figures he has gone through today. Of Jake Berry: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will welcome course, the LGA itself said—in what was an extraordinary the recent discussions that have taken place with local intervention from its chairman—that the figures were authority leaders across Cumbria. I know that he has based on an old formula. It acknowledged that a new influence over his own local authorities, and I am formula was being worked on and that therefore no heartened by the open-hearted and open-handed way in further predictions could be made from those figures. which they have approached those discussions. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been clear that we Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I am grateful to should seek mayoral combined authorities across the my right hon. Friend for giving way; the Opposition entirety of the north of England. It is my view that if we spokesman refused seven times. want to truly empower communities, a powerful, locally Gloucester City Council provisionally gets 1.4%, elected, singularly accountable individual is the best compared with 6.3% for the country as a whole and way of doing it. I hope that we will shortly be able to 3.4% for all second-tier councils. While my right hon. progress further devolution deals and discussions across Friend is doing the consultation, will he look closely at Cumbria. 331 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 332

As I have said, devolution does work. It is already Tees fly again, by saving Tees Valley airport; he is also paying dividends,with funding and metro Mayors delivering making his economy fly again, by working with the programmes that local people want. The hon. Member Government on a suite of new powers to unleash the for Denton and Reddish might want to listen to this. I full potential of Teesside and everyone who lives there. am sure that the completion of the A6 relief road to In addition, the Government are talking to Cumbria, Manchester airport in Greater Manchester has assisted , East Riding, Hull, County Durham him and his constituents to get around the north-west and about their ambitions for change in of England. I know it helps me. It was done by the their areas. Labour Mayor for Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. Already, 50% of communities in the north have, to In Liverpool, we are supporting new rolling stock on coin a phrase, taken back control through devolution. Merseyrail. That is important to me—I went to school More areas want to be part of our devolution revolution, on those trains and did not know that 35 years later and we will ensure that they get that opportunity. Later people would be going to school on the same trains. this year, the Government will publish their devolution There is a new train maintenance and technology training White Paper, setting out the Government’s ambition for academy and the largest rolling stock modernisation full devolution across England. Through this White facility in the country, creating hundreds of new high- Paper,we will work with everyone in our local government quality,high-skilled jobs, in co-operation and collaboration family to ensure that they are truly empowered to be with Steve Rotheram, the Labour Mayor of Liverpool. partners in growth. In the west midlands, the extraordinary Andy Street is As this Government unite and level up cities, towns investing £207 million to extend the West Midlands and coastal and rural areas across our country, we Metro system, re-opening railway lines and stations. acknowledge that our town centres are absolutely at the That is all being done by metro Mayors. heart of a growing economy. They are the ground on Of course, those decisions could have been made in which local jobs are created and small businesses are Whitehall but, I think as everyone knows, the process nurtured, and they inject billions of pounds into the would have been slower, they would not necessarily have local economy. That is why, through our £3.6 billion reflected local priorities, and crucially, picking up on town deal fund, we are directly intervening in local the hon. Gentleman’s recent comments, they would communities. Weare working with local areas and councils have lacked the local democratic legitimacy of decisions on more than 200 investment plans that have the potential made by single accountable elected individuals. It is to transform their economies. precisely because devolution works that we intend to go The local Member of Parliament is able to sit on the further and faster. We will unleash the potential of all town deal board in each and every one of our town deal of our regions, delivering on the priorities of this people’s areas. That ensures that Members of Parliament from Government to level up everywhere. across this House, whichever party they represent, have the opportunity to be an active part of the conversation Mr Betts: May I begin by thanking the Minister for in driving local growth in their communities. This is a his continued support for devolution to the Sheffield new approach that I cannot recall previous Governments city region and south Yorkshire? I think we have just taking. It is about drawing on the talents of every single about got there. That is very welcome. Member of this House with a town deal. The Select Committee on Housing, Communities I now want to briefly mention the hon. Member for and Local Government has in the past commented on St Helens North (Conor McGinn)—this will probably the fact that, so far, devolution has been about powers ruin his career. He attended his first town board meeting being transferred to mayoral combined authorities in on 23 January. He then approached me just outside the certain areas. Initially, the Government were going to Division Lobby, fizzing with enthusiasm. allow 100% business rate retention, which would have meant more money and more powers to local government Mr Kevan Jones: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I across the country. Will the Government have another might be wrong but I thought this debate was entitled look at that proposal, to see whether all councils should “Local Government Finance”. My hon. Friend the now benefit from devolved powers? Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on the Front Bench made a very good speech about Jake Berry: I am very pleased that we are making finance, but we have heard very little about it from the such good progress in south Yorkshire.The hon. Gentleman Minister, who has talked instead about devolution and and I, along with many colleagues across the House, other things to do with local government. Could I have welcome that. He is correct to say that mayoral combined some advice, please? authorities have retained their 100% business rate retention for next year. Following the successful pilots, including Mr Speaker: I think if we look in detail at both in areas such as Lancashire—the hon. Member for speeches, we will see that they are around the finance Blackburn (Kate Hollern) and I have benefited from package and the delivery of different projects. I think that—any further business rate retention will be part of there is an interconnection there, but I am sure that if the spending review process. we did drift too far the Minister would come straight Devolution is particularly pertinent to areas such as back into line. For the moment, I am more than happy. south Yorkshire. Every deal so far has been bespoke, but as part of our ambition to level up powers we have Jake Berry: I suggest to the right hon. Member for written to every existing regional Mayor and asked North Durham (Mr Jones) that he read page 8 of the them to take on new powers so that they can truly drive Order Paper. The Government’s amendment says that the ambition for the region. I am delighted to tell the the Government will set out the devolution White Paper House that one of the first to respond was Ben Houchen, and mentions the Mayor for Tees Valley. Not only has he made the “the £3.6bn Towns Fund and eight Devolution Deals now agreed.” 333 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 334

[Jake Berry] this Government are steadfast in our commitment to protecting the millions of people who rely upon those He is a very experienced Member of this House, so I am essential services. That is why we propose to inject an surprised that he has not yet learned to read the Order additional £1 billion of new funding into the social care Paper in the morning. grant, with £150 million used to equalise the distributional impact of the adult social care precept, and continue Mr Speaker: Order. The right hon. Member for North the £410 million of the previous year’s allocations. Durham (Mr Jones) has done exactly what he wanted Overall, that means that local authorities will have to, Minister, which was to get you riled. That is why his access to £6 billion across adult and children’s social experience is best ignored at times. care next year. However, our commitment to boosting social care and investment spans much further than just Jake Berry: Well, we are having fun. that one-year settlement, which is why we pledged to maintain the £1 billion of new funding to the social care As I was saying, the hon. Member for St Helens grant for the duration of this Parliament, enabling local North approached me outside the Division Lobby, fizzing authorities to continue with long-term planning and with excitement. He is embedded on his town board, driving improvements in the essential core services. and is putting aside political differences to work closely with this Government, challenging us on our towns It was deeply irresponsible for the shadow Secretary fund and ensuring that he can deliver real benefits for of State to scaremonger about the figures from the his community. LGA. He knows that those figures are at best an estimate and that they are based on old formulas, including the It is only because this Government had the determination old area cost adjustment, which we are changing. If we to deliver the will of the British people and we have now thought it worked, we would not be doing the fairer left the European Union that we can seize the opportunities funding review, so he should think on before he scares that lie ahead. We will drive devolution, and level up some of the most vulnerable people in society with our communities and nations, while at the same time stories about cuts and figures that are not based on the beginning an era of new investment in public services. true formula. Back in 2010 we were forced to make some difficult decisions, but we had inherited the highest deficit in the The shadow Secretary of State claims to be a great nation’s history and an economy struggling to recover champion of local government, so I will give him the from the worst recession in 70 years. The public purse opportunity to intervene on me in a moment. I wonder was overstretched, the overdraft limit had been reached whether he can recall what he was doing on the evening and the credit card was maxed out. In truth, there was of 10 February 2016—would he like to intervene? He no money left and the economy was on the brink. It is cannot remember. I can remember. I was in the Aye Lobby exactly because we took those difficult decisions that we with my colleagues, voting for the social care precept, can now bring forward our ambitious plans and aims enabling local councils to prioritise social care. He was for local government finance for the months and years in the No Lobby, voting against more money going to ahead. I am determined that local government will councils to finance social care. That one measure alone receive the resources it needs to support its communities, has raised an estimated £7 billion for adult social care and continue to innovate and deliver cost-effective services since it was introduced. Perhaps when he is lecturing for its residents. This year will see a spending review in Government Members about support for adult social which we will move forward with a longer-term settlement, care, he should recall what he was doing when local providing the sector with the certainty and confidence it authorities and the vulnerable in society needed him; he needs to properly plan for the future. was pursuing narrow, party political lines and voting against the social care precept. As the shadow Secretary of State mentioned, we also plan to review the formula used to distribute money between local authorities in order to ensure that we can Andrew Gwynne: If we are throwing accusations about, use the resources in the most efficient and effective way. perhaps the Minister can tell me what the social care I will say more about that later. However, I briefly want funding gap in Metropolitan Borough Council to address why the Government brought forward a is this year, and how much the social care levy raises. one-year funding settlement for local government. In advance of leaving the European Union, it was right that Jake Berry: I am not throwing accusations around. I we sought rapidly and urgently to bring stability and suggest the hon. Gentleman checks Hansard because certainty to our local government sector. This meant whatever the funding gap may be, it would have been carrying out a one-year spending review at record pace, much bigger if he and his colleagues had got their way. followed by a post-election local government finance He voted against more funding for social care, and I settlement, which we published as soon as we could suggest he remembers that when he is giving out the after the election. Building on that settlement, we now lectures. have a series of bold and ambitious plans for a local In addition to helping councils address the complexity government finance settlement in the financial year around the delivery of social care, I recognise that 2020-21 that has been devised in close collaboration councils in rural communities face some unique challenges. with colleagues across the local government sector. The services they provide are often delivered over a long Under these proposals, core spending power for local distance, to disparate communities. That is why we are authorities in England will increase from £46.2 billion proposing to continue the rural services delivery grant to £49.1 billion in 2020-21. This equates to a 6.3% increase at £81 million—the highest ever to date. This funding in cash terms, or a 4.4% increase in real terms—the will continue to support residents in rural counties— largest increase for a decade. The shadow Secretary of includingLabour-controlledCumbria,whichisabeneficiary State spoke at some length about adult social care, and of it and which I am sure welcomes the funding, given 335 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 336 the challenges it faces around rurality—and people who but now we have to deliver a sustainable approach, and live far from local services so rely on them being delivered we look forward to continuing to work with the whole by their council. sector. We have consulted widely on negative revenue support The review is a large and complex project. Expectations grant, and have concluded that eliminating negative RSG are high on all sides, which is why we are committed to through business rates income, at a cost of £152.9 million, sharing emerging results with local government as soon is the right thing to do.This will deliver on the Government’s as possible. We plan to share significant elements for long-term commitment to the principle of sustainable technical discussions in the coming weeks and months. growth incentives in the funding settlement. That will include formulas in the review that represent a The new homes bonus is a very important part of majority of local government spending. However, I how we fund local councils. It rewards councils that do should remind Members that needs formulas represent the right thing by building new houses to help tackle only a small aspect of the review.As the LGA pointed out, our housing crisis. We want to ensure that they continue it is simply not possible to predict the overall outcome to be incentivised, which is why we will provide £907 million for individual local authorities or groups of authorities of new homes bonus allocations this year. and therefore the extent to which funding may move between authorities. Of course, we will need to consider Council tax for the average dwelling went up by the review in the context of the outcome of the planned 112% under the last Labour Government. That’s right— spending review. We look forward to working with Labour doubled people’s local council tax. Of course, in colleagues and sharing those results with the sector and Wales they have managed to triple it, but they only the House shortly. I also look forward to updating the doubled it here in England. That is why this Government House once we have finalised proposals for our new and have made a commitment to give local residents the final exciting settlement for local government. Finally— say on excessive council tax increases. We are determined, in a way that no Labour Government ever were, to protect Mr Kevan Jones: Hooray! the interests of hard-working taxpayers while granting local authorities the flexibility they need to raise resources Jake Berry: I have more—I can keep going. to meet their needs. For this reason, we propose to continue with the council tax referendum limits. I welcome the subject of today’s debate, because it gives us an opportunity to look at the exciting programme that this Government have for devolution, levelling up Andrew Gwynne: You can’t have it both ways, Jake. and supporting our towns. However, it would be remiss of any Member not to take this opportunity to thank Jake Berry: If we double the council tax that is paid everyone who works in local government. I often feel by local people, then I will start to take lectures from the that being a councillor is a thankless task, and I want to hon. Gentleman about what we should do. He should ensure that they hear a clear message from this House remember his own record. He entered Parliament in today that, on a cross-party basis, we thank them and 2005 and was here when all this was happening; perhaps support them in their work. Of course, councils are not he would like to recall that. just run by locally elected politicians. They have fantastic Taken as a whole, this protection will mean that we officers who support the work of the council and local see the lowest average council tax rise since 2016, ensuring communities. [Interruption.] While the Labour party that taxpayers continue to receive the breadth and quality seems to think it is funny that I want to thank people of services that they enjoy today without, as they had who work in local authorities for their work, Conservative under former Labour Administrations, the imposition Members think that it is important to do so. of crippling tax hikes and rocketing monthly bills. Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Will the As we look towards future settlements, the Government Minister give way? intend to conduct a full multi-year spending review. We are already putting more money in this year, but the Jake Berry: I will not; I am concluding. spending review will give us the opportunity once again to look at pressures in the round and provide councils Let me finish by thanking our councillors and our with the certainty they need. We have committed to a officers, as well as the Opposition for calling this important fundamental review of business rates. As part of that debate and giving us an opportunity to discuss the work, we will need to consider carefully the link between Government’s exciting agenda. the review and retention by local councils. We will of course continue to discuss that and the future direction Several hon. Members rose— with our partners in local authorities. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr ): I am not Everyone in this House wants to refresh the way we putting a time limit on speeches right at the beginning allocate funding, so that it reflects the most up-to-date of the debate, but I advise Members to keep an eye on needs and resources of local areas. That is key work to the clock and not to go beyond nine minutes. You do achieve the agenda set out by the Prime Minister, because not have to do nine minutes, of course; you can do less. dealing with local government finance is part of levelling I call Mr Clive Betts. up our entire country. We have made good progress with the review of relative needs and resources—or the 1.44 pm fair funding review, as it is known—and I want to take this opportunity to thank Members on both sides of the Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): This is a House,someof whomhavemadeconstructivecontributions very important debate because these services affect to the process. The direction of the review has been millions of our constituents up and down the country. welcomed by many, including many in local government, The reality is that local government has had bigger cuts 337 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 338

[Mr Clive Betts] services, which has taken the immediate pressures off. But looking ahead, the council does not have certainty. to its funding than any other part of the public sector It was worried by the report that came out the other day since 2010, with a 50% cut in Government grant and, indicating a possible £30 million cut as a result of the even by the Government’s figures, a 25% cut in spending fair funding review. I know that there is disagreement, power. No other part of the public sector has had that and it depends which analysis we read, but that fair level of cuts. We know that the biggest cuts have fallen funding review has to recognise the issue of deprivation in the poorest areas in the north of the country. It will right across the formulas, including the foundation be interesting to see how the Government respond to element. In the end, this is about distributing money the pressures on services in areas such as South Yorkshire according to need and the ability to raise money at a and the north-east following the general election; perhaps local level, and that has to be reflected in all elements of they have a bigger interest in defending those areas in the fair funding review. the future. Looking to the future, there seem to me to be some Clearly there are massive pressures on social care. We key issues that have to be addressed. First, local government know from the LGiU survey, which my hon. Friend the needs the certainty of a three or four-year funding Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) settlement. That was welcomed in the last Parliament, mentioned, that the biggest pressures now identified by and we need it again. As I have said, we need a fair councils are on children’s services, followed by services funding review that is genuinely fair. However, we cannot for the elderly. The Housing, Communities and Local have fair funding for local government unless the totality Government Committee, which I chair, published a of the funding is sufficient for all councils, and that is number of reports in the last Parliament. We know that the reality.All the reports we did on the Select Committee the funding gap could be up to £10 billion if it is not have shown this gap of up to £10 billion, particularly on addressed by the end of this Parliament. care services, by the end of the Parliament. This is We also know the impact of the attempt to prioritise about making sure that local government as a whole social services. Council spending on social services has gets a fair deal, not just every individual council. risen from 45% of total spending to 60% between 2000 If we are to sort that out, we have to say, as the joint and 2020, which has squeezed out spending for all other report of the two Select Committees—the Housing, important services. Spending on road safety, libraries, Communities and Local Government Committee and leisure, buses, housing and environmental services—things the Health and Social Care Committee—did in the last that are really important to the vast majority of our Parliament, that we need a specific agreement and settlement constituents—has been cut by 50% or more. As I have for social care. We cannot continue to fund social care said before, there is a challenge to democratic accountability out of business rates and the council tax. It simply is at a local level when, despite what the Minister said, not going to work. people see their council tax rising every year, yet the We recommended a social care premium, and I still services that most families who do not get social care stand by that. We went for a citizens’ assembly and set use are being cut as they pay more for them. That is a one up—the first time for a Select Committee—and we fundamental challenge, and it has to be addressed; I will were told, “We don’t mind paying more, but we want to come on to how we might do that in a minute. know that that money goes into social care”. Let us I turn to the other problems, one of which is council make it clear: we did not recommend a private insurance tax. Council tax has not been revalued for 20 years. Its scheme, where people only get out what they pay in. We bands are fixed in concrete, and it is becoming increasingly recommended something very similar to the German regressive and out of touch. The Select Committee system, where people pay a premium—it could simply made recommendations in 2019 on how to address that, be an increase on the national insurance premium, or it and I am sorry that the Government did not feel able to could be a completely separate premium that goes to accept them. Business rates are, again, determined by something like a friendly society, which administers the central Government, with no say at a local level. Last money on behalf of the Government—but, whatever night, the Government changed the basis for calculating happens, that money has to be separate, accountable business rates increases from the retail price index to the and shown to go into social care. Social care would consumer prices index. Do the Government really think continue to be administered through local councils; this that, in the longer term, business rates growing at 2% as is not the centralisation of the social care system. There the major funding source for local government can deal would be a move eventually—eventually, as money with the rising pressures on social care? It simply does comes in—to having free personal social care. That was not add up, and that message has come not from other the cross-party recommendation, and I hope we can Members of this House but from local councils—from have cross-party discussions on that basis. I am certainly the LGA and the County Councils Network. Paul willing to enter into them, and I am sure that people Carter, when he was leader of Kent County Council, across the House would do so if we look at this on that made this point powerfully to the Select Committee. We basis. cannot continue to fund social care simply from a I would say to the Government that we ought to be business rates increase based on CPI. It just does not able to improve local taxation. They should have another add up, and the Government have to address that at look at the whole issue of council tax bands. I know some point. revaluation is a really difficult issue, but they should More money has been put in this year, which has have a look at some reforms. Business rates retention been generally welcomed. Sheffield City Council told is desperately complicated. It is so complicated that I me that, for the first time in many years, it is not having think the Government have to separate out the mechanism to make in-year cuts because of the extra money that for the redistribution of money within local government, has come in. It had about £10 million extra for social which is what they are now trying to do through business 339 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 340 rates retention, and the incentives to local councils to most other countries, a very narrow tax base or revenue encourage local economic development. The two are base from which to fund itself. I therefore hope that we separate, and the Government must do that. will be prepared to think outside the box to some degree In the end, there is a really big challenge when we when we look at devolution. come to devolution. I hope the Select Committee will The devolution of function is really important and go back to the inquiry on devolution that we started in the devolution of legal power is important—as my right the last Parliament. I am a passionate believer in more hon. Friend the Minister will know, that is something decisions being made at local level not just by councils, my good friend the noble Lord Pickles, I and others but by local communities. The real problem is that this sought to do in the Localism Act 2011—but the third should not just be about transferring powers down; it bit of the equation is the devolution of resource. If we should be about transferring the ability to raise money are going to be serious about devolution, we have to and to make decisions at local level. The real difficulty—and talk in terms of fiscal devolution as well. I commend to it is not something that anyone has an easy solution the Minister and colleagues the work of the London for—is that that is very difficult to do in this country Finance Commission. It has published two reports, the because of the great inequalities we have here. In Sweden, first of which was in 2013. The commission was established people have a much greater ability to raise money at by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he local level, and they can do that because the country as was Mayor of London, and I know from personal a whole is much more equal. The differences in wealth experience that the Prime Minister himself is a convinced and resources between different parts of Sweden are devolutionist. much less than they are between different parts of this I hope that we can look again at some of the sensible country. That is the challenge: how to devolve powers, and practical recommendations for fiscal devolution in but also the ability to raise money in a country where that first report. For example, there is the devolution of inequality is so great that raising money at local level stamp duty land tax and perhaps of other property-based results in a big difference in the amount that can be taxes. That also reflects another point made by the hon. raised from any individual tax. I know that is a challenge, Member for Sheffield South East. Yes, there are more and it is a challenge that I hope the Select Committee disparities of resource in the United Kingdom than in will now take up with a report on devolution. I hope the other countries, but at the same time there are disparities Government are prepared to listen and to be much of costs as well. The cost of running a local authority more radical than they have so far indicated they are service in London and the south-east is exceedingly going to be. high, and perhaps a measure of fiscal devolution to a regional level would enable greater nuance in the way 1.53 pm we approach those matters. It is an important topic, Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It and it seems to me that we need to think that through is a pleasure, as always, to follow the Chairman of the very carefully. Select Committee, the hon. Member for Sheffield South Among the other specifics I want to touch on is the East (Mr Betts), whose speech was characteristically need to look sensibly at the formula itself. When I was thoughtful, and I think that, across the House, we all the Minister I think we had 270-odd bits of regression recognise his expertise in this matter. I can start by analysis in the formula, and I pay tribute to the officials agreeing with him on the last part of his speech, which who grapple with that. However, it is complex and is in urging my right hon. Friend the Minister to be opaque, and we need something that is much more ambitious in our devolution agenda. The fair funding transparent to those who are its recipients. For example, review is necessary and right, and I urge the Government we could look at a couple of practical issues. I very to move forward with it. However, the Minister is right, much welcome my right hon. Friend the Minister’s in the wording of the Government amendment, to link commitment to eliminating negative rate support grant. this to our ambitious devolution agenda, which gives us It seemed to me scandalous that a well-run and efficient an opportunity to break out of the straitjacket that has local authority such as Bromley would, if we had not bedevilled local government funding for many years— taken steps, have been penalised by negative RSG. I ask throughout my time in the Department and my time as the Minister—I sure he will do this because he looks at a councillor. all this carefully—to look at the London Borough of I am delighted to be making my speech with my new Bromley’s submission to the consultation, which set this constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member out in some detail and with real expertise. for Orpington (Mr Bacon), sitting just in front of me. Another important area is that at the moment the He had a most distinguished career in local government—in formula is based almost entirely on a needs versus the London boroughs and on the . resource matrix, and there is nothing in the current I think his expertise in this field will be very welcome arrangements that rewards efficiency. If we want to to this House, and I am really pleased to see my friend change behaviours in local government for the better, here. surely we can find some incentive that we can build into That comes back to the point: the pressures local the funding mechanisms to reward local authorities that government has had to contend with have been real, have a track record of being historically efficient and despite the fact that the sector is staffed by dedicated historically low-cost. Bromley is exactly such an authority, people at all levels, as the Minister acknowledged, and I but it actually loses out in consequence. As it has been very much welcome what he said about that. Historically, efficient, any reduction made on a simple pro rata basis it has also been the most efficient part of the public bears more heavily on it, because there is less slack. We sector, and we need to build on that strength. However, need to bear in mind that, in some cases, historically it has suffered, as the Select Committee Chairman high spending may be the result of historically high pointed out, from the fact that it has, compared with funding, but not necessarily the consequence purely of 341 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 342

[Sir Robert Neill] thus far, so what can we do to encourage and assist local authorities to do more of that for the benefit of their need or of the efficient use of resource. Therefore, we communities? need a formula that is more nuanced in capturing those So actually there is an ambitious agenda here, and distinctions. this is an ambitious and important topic. I welcome the I hope we can look seriously at the operation of the opportunity for us to have this debate. With respect to area cost adjustment. In my experience, that has proved the Opposition, I should say that it is not simply about to be rather arbitrary in a number of areas. We have an putting more money into a system, because, at the end artificial distinction in London between inner and outer of the day, the system is no longer capable of responding London boroughs. As many Members of the House to the complex needs and pressures that modern local will know, that does not reflect the way London has government must deal with. That is why the Government changed. There are now areas of considerable affluence are right to have this review. They are right to be in inner London, but as they are counted as inner ambitious and to link it with the broader devolution London boroughs, they get a more generous rate of agenda. Therefore, I have no hesitation in supporting funding than outer London boroughs, whereas many of the amendment. the London suburbs are facing increasing social and 2.2 pm economic challenges. Getting rid of that distinction Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): My hon. would be good, and moving to a more up-to-date Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) system of calculation would also be valuable. I often highlighted what has been happening over the past wonder whether we should be looking at assessing need 10 years, which is that local government as a sector has on the basis of disposable income and costs once housing taken the biggest cuts. Added to that, Departments costs are taken out of it, because housing costs are a might have to find another 5%, and no matter what the significant distortion across the country and perhaps Minister says in his reply about levelling up and making some element can be put in the formula to look at how promises to northern councils, it will be very difficult, we deal with that. Again, that bears heavily on efficient because this Government and the coalition Government outer-London authorities such as mine. had a clear policy to move funding from more deprived We could also look at the way that benefits data are to more affluent areas. handled in this calculation. Should we be looking at Interestingly,the Minister said in reply to an intervention benefits data making allowance for the level of take-up, by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) which will vary? Doing it on a flat basis can, again, that he was here because he wanted to make the point potentially distort the reality on the ground. That is that he was the Northern Powerhouse Minister. With why taking deprivation levels after housing costs may one sole exception, the hon. Member for give us a better and more realistic assessment of disposable (Robbie Moore) has been the only new Conservative income in local authority areas. northern MP who has sat through this debate. We had a I shall make my final point, because I know that there brief interlude from the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland is much more that we need to touch upon. We have (Dehenna Davison), who stayed for about 10 minutes, always maintained that we would honour the new burdens and I did spot briefly the hon. Member for Darlington doctrine, but I am not sure that that has always been (Peter Gibson). If this new army—supposedly—of new possible to achieve in practice over the years. There are Conservative MPs want to argue for their region, they still about 1,100 statutory obligations on local authorities should be doing it in here and they are not setting a very and those have grown, sometimes for good reasons of good example. I will work with them to argue why the social policy—the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 is Government got it wrong on local government finances one example—but they can, again, bear heavily on over the past 10 years. some areas, particularly in London, because for a raft It is not just me saying that: the National Audit of reasons over which local authorities have no control, Office and the Centre for Cities have clearly demonstrated London is inevitably a magnet for new arrivals, so there that money has moved from northern councils—the will be greater pressure on London boroughs in terms more deprived areas—to the more leafy suburbs in the of the costs of housing policy. Something that is more south-east. That has not been done by accident; it has nuanced, which I am sure is achievable given modern been deliberate design and policy. If the Minister levels data collection, would be welcome and advantageous. up the system and makes it fair, I will fully support that, but that would be very unpopular among some of his I very much welcome the move back to multi-year colleagues in the south-east. settlements, and I hope we can look at having four-year We have a situation now, after the last 10 years, where or so settlements going forward. It was necessary to do County Durham has lost £224 million in grant. Core what we did this year—I think everybody understands spending per dwelling in County Durham stands at that—but let us get back to multi-year settlements to £1,727, whereas the figure for Surrey is £2,004, so it is give greater certainty for people. clear that deprived areas such as County Durham are If we give local authorities more powers, as we did getting less core spending, and that has been deliberately under the Localism Act 2011, can we look at the rules designed by this Government. governing the way in which they can approach raising The cover for that is the so-called “fairer funding revenue for investment in capital projects? There are a formula”. That is complete nonsense, because it is number of restrictions around that at the moment? It fundamentally flawed in two respects and it is a disguise would also encourage them to use their powers—also to use the word “fairer”. It starts from the premise that provided under the Localism Act—to take on more the needs of every single area and council are the same, commercial activities and to do so in a more commercial when that is clearly not the case; I will give examples later. manner. The take-up of that has been somewhat patchy As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South 343 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 344

East highlighted, it also works on the basis that each I am sorry, but that just cannot be right when comparing council has the ability to raise local finance on an equal the two areas in terms of deprivation and health needs. basis; I am sorry, but they don’t. The Minister may say what he likes, but in the past 10 years that has been the direction of travel. If he levels Kevin Hollinrake rose— it up and changes it suddenly as Northern Powerhouse Mr Jones: I will give way in a minute. Minister, he will have my 100% support, but I doubt whether he will be able to do that. The promises that he They don’t, because, for example, in County Durham and others have made to northern councils are going to over 50% of our properties are in band A, so, no matter be very limited. how much we put up the council tax, we will not—unlike more affluent areas, with larger numbers of Ds, Cs and On the point about need, there are two areas with even Gs in some cases—be able to bridge the gap that which all local councils have been struggling—adult has resulted from the withdrawal of core funding. social care and looked-after children. Again, to work on the basis that need for all councils in those areas is Jake Berry: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? the same is to start from the wrong premise. For example, since 2010 demand for children’s social care has increased Mr Jones: I give way first to my hon. Friend, as I by £7.2 billion but central Government support has always call him—the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton halved. That has pushed demand on to local councils, (Kevin Hollinrake). which have had to make very difficult decisions. As my Kevin Hollinrake: I am grateful. The right hon. hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gentleman seems to imply that somehow shire counties Gwynne) said, these services are not optional—they are getting a better deal from central Government in must be provided, by law. If we look at the national terms of spending allocation than metropolitan areas, figures, in 2010, 54 children per 10,000 of population but that is absolutely the reverse of the truth. The were in social care. By 2019, that had risen to 65—an reality is that the shire counties get less than half as increase of 20%. If we look at the figures for the much as the metropolitan areas allocated from central north-east, the figure is 101 children in care per 10,000 funds, and that is why our council tax is, in some areas, of population. In the south-east of England, the figure twice as much. is 53, and in Surrey there are only 37 children in care per 10,000 of population. Mr Jones: Yes, but I have to say that in the hon. The demand on councils such as County Durham Gentleman’s area, North Yorkshire, the ability to raise and others in the north-east, and in other urban areas, council taxes is a lot better than in County Durham and is far greater than it is on Surrey. Demand for statutory others. I am not talking about a metropolitan council; I services, which councils have to provide, is going up and am talking about County Durham. In Surrey—Woking— they are very costly. At the same time, core funding and other areas in the south, the core spending has not from the Government is being taken away from some been reduced at all. So the hon. Gentleman should be areas and redistributed to areas such as Surrey, which is shouting from the rooftops about the unfairness of the not just flatlining but receiving an increase in funding. current formula. I am sorry, but that just cannot be fair. The other issue— I said at the start of my speech that the direction of travel has been pork barrel politics of the worst type, Jake Berry rose— doling out money to people who vote Conservative in certain parts of the country. The problem for the Mr Jones: I will give way in a minute; I know the Conservative party is that the pork barrel has got Minister gets very excited when I make speeches. bigger. The big test will be whether the Government can The other issue is the ability of local councils to raise actually spread that around the country and meet all finance through, for example, the distribution of business the pledges they have made. I doubt whether they can, rates. To be fair to County Durham, it is trying some because this has not just happened in local government ambitious plans for economic development to get business funding. On fire and police, the direction of travel has rates up, but Durham’s ability to raise extra funding not just been cuts, but moving revenue collection to through business activity is not at all comparable with local taxpayers. For example, the Government announced that of, for example, the City of Westminster. an increase in the amount of money going into policing, Jake Berry: I just wonder if I could recommend to but that has been moved on to local taxpayers. Councils the right hon. Gentleman’s reading the Government’s like Durham County Council are less able, because of December 2018 fairer funding review consultation, in their council tax base, to raise that type of financing. which we specifically deal with the point he has raised I do not like using the phrase “fairer funding formula about differing council tax bases. So it is not correct to review”, because I do not think it is that at all. I doubt say that this is not dealt with in the fairer funding whether the new system will be, either. A lot of promises review. The relevant paragraph is 3.2.2 on page 50 of have been made and we shall have to wait and see the December 2018 consultation document. whether they will actually be met. I will work with anyone to ensure that County Durham gets a fair Mr Jones: The Minister says that, but then he actually hearing. I am sad that my new Conservative colleagues has a situation such as the following one, based on the are not here today to join me in demanding fairer funding figures put out at the moment—I accept we funding for County Durham, but I will certainly press have not had the final decision. Under the formula for the case for County Durham to receive the fair funding public health funding—and I supported public health deal it wants. funding going back to local councils—County Durham I will end with a point raised by the Minister. I came was forecast to lose £19 million, or 35% of its budget, from local government. I was a councillor for 11 years. I whereas Surrey will increase its budget by £14 million. respect, and am very grateful for, the work done by 345 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 346

[Mr Kevan Jones] an MP. I went into politics to help others: to help the people I grew up alongside and lived with. Over the past councillors of all parties. They are remunerated at a decade, I have cut my teeth in the cut and thrust of Holt very low level for the amount of work they do. However, Town Council and North Norfolk District Council, I find it a bit difficult to take it from this Government, never once doing it with an eye to becoming a Member who have demonised certain people in local government of Parliament, but getting involved because you genuinely over the past few years and used them as scapegoats for care enough to help others and make a difference to decisions that have been taken—[Interruption.] The your home. On that journey, I was at one stage the Minister says codswallop, but I remember—as I am portfolio holder for revenue and benefits on North sure we will witness again in the next few weeks in the Norfolk District Council. I welcome the Government’s local government elections—the Government using the £2.9 billion funding, or 4.4% increase, to local authority issue of pay and so on in local government to argue that spending, which is one of the highest in the past decade. local councils were being profligate. Those are diversionary I believe that the passion to help others not only led tactics to remove attention from the core issue, which is to my election success, but very much cemented my that the Government have decimated local government predecessor, Sir Norman Lamb, in the seat for over over the past 10 years. We shall wait and see happens in 18 years. There can be very few Members of Parliament the review, but I shall continue to make the case to who command the level of respect that Sir Norman ensure that the people of County Durham get the garnered. Indeed, whether in Parliament or on the door- funding and services they require from what is a very step, he continues to be commended for his hard-working, good council, and to ensure that the Government have a considerate and kind nature. I thank you, Sir Norman, formula funding that is not only fair but equal across for your hard work over the years, and I know—putting the country, and recognises need. all partisan colours aside—that we will work together, cross-party, on projects for the good of our constituents. 2.15 pm Indeed, the best compliment that I got when I knocked on one door was, “Ah, you’re like a young Norman”— Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): The best piece 25 years ago maybe—but I will take that, knowing the of advice I was given on delivering my maiden speech high regard that he is held in. was, “Don’t worry”—easier said than done, I guess—“treat it like a love letter”—I have not written one of those for I could not fail to mention in my maiden speech the a few years—“only that it is back to your constituents.” amazing people who put me here. I have worked with My wife told me—I should be careful about what I say many incredible charities across the years, and friends because she is watching—that I did not have a romantic and colleagues have worked so hard to get me elected—not bone in my body, so that might be quite tricky. But it least those who voted for me. I am truly humbled by a should be easier for me because this is to my home, to result that I never saw coming, which gave me the where I grew up and to the place that I love so much. It second biggest swing in the country. I pay tribute to all is a genuine love, and it is exactly why I stood to be the those people. Member of Parliament for North Norfolk. All of us know that a life of public service is a sacrifice. That really hit home in the middle of last year It has been said before in this Chamber quite a few when my young daughter was heard saying in the times, but this time listen up: North Norfolk is the most playground at school that she did not like the Conservative beautiful constituency. [Laughter.] And I am going to party. [Laughter.] She is getting a bit embarrassed. prove it. Where else would we see some of the most When her friend said, “Why is that?”, she said, “That’s iconic and beautiful parts of the country all in one area? because if my daddy wins,they’ll take him away to London” From the miles of stunning coastline, taking in areas —so thank you. such as Holkham, Wells, Blakeney and down to the Now we need to set about making the constituency easterly end of Horsey, we have no fewer than six blue even better, not just for today but for tomorrow. We are flag beaches. There is also the rural countryside, full of the oldest constituency demographic in the country, beautiful landscapes, quintessential villages and names and I will fight for the health services that we need, the like Baconsthorpe, Happisburgh and Sloley, which I right housing across our region and the infrastructure, will admit reflects somewhat the slightly easier pace of and I will strive to protect our precious natural environment. life we have in North Norfolk. We also have the glorious But we can have none of that, in my view, without a Norfolk Broads. It is idyllic, stunning and breathtaking strong economy of jobs and growth. That is what I want in every inch of its 400 square miles. to mention because I believe that, in 2020, we will see It is, of course, no surprise that we see 9 million just that: a better future for our country, with optimism, tourist visitors every single year, bringing in £500 million our new standing on the world stage and our ability to through the tourism sector. Indeed, in this House many work in partnership with the European Union but not Members have grabbed me in the Tea Room and said, be governed by it. “I remember holidaying in North Norfolk when I was a Business is my background; I grew up in a family that child.” Even more have grabbed me and said, “Can you ran independent businesses—not multinationals, but recommend somewhere good to go in the recess?”Sooner small and medium-sized businesses. They are the lifeblood or later, you will have gone on holiday to Sheringham or of the economy. I know that it probably broke every Cromer and tasted the world-famous delights of the health and safety law there is, but I started off life with a Cromer crab. Its heritage takes some beating, too, for broom in my hand at 10 years old, sweeping up the shop this is Nelson’s county. floor. I think that is where I learned the essence of hard Then there is my home town of Holt for which, I will work. That was instilled in me by my stepfather, Michael agree, I have something of a soft spot. It is famed for its Baker, who built a business up for 46 years to what it is Georgian beauty and its independent high street. It is today. He was my inspiration. He passed away before I very much where the journey started for me to become became an MP last year. 347 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 348

Entrepreneurs like my stepfather are not alone. There Hebburn stopped shipbuilding in 1982 and the last pit are people like him up and down the country who drive in closed in the 1980s.Successive Tory Governments, small businesses forward, including those on the high from Thatcher to Johnson, have decimated industry street. Indeed, here in this country we have nearly and come after our communities—not just in Jarrow 6 million private sector businesses. Three fifths of our but across the whole of the north. Many good, hard- employment comes from those types of businesses and working, decent people were discarded, and we are still they account for well over 95% of all businesses. To me, living with those scars to this day. The closures and the without business, entrepreneurs and risk-takers, we would misery they caused were and will always be a tragedy. have nothing, because we would not have the economy They are a constant reminder of what Thatcherism to pay for hospitals, schools and infrastructure, and nor brought to our region. would we have the jobs that give us the ability to buy a Sadly, like a lot of the country, particularly in the good home, settle down and live a fulfilled life. Our north-east, we now have food banks, high unemployment, businesses and high streets—those that create jobs in poverty and struggle, but the people of Jarrow are this country—should be supported and revered, and I resilient and proud of their history, community and very much want to be a voice for them. working-class solidarity. They never give up, and I say There is more to do but I am confident that in this to this House and them: neither will I. Parliament, we will achieve it. Already, business rate There is no better example of this resilience than the cuts extend from one third to 50%, as the Government MP for Jarrow from 1935 to 1947, Red Ellen Wilkinson. commit to levelling up and supporting high streets. To be the first woman MP for Jarrow since Ellen fills me With better broadband across our country, a mobile with pride, and it is only right and proper that I pay signal in every corner and investment in young people, tribute to her here today. Ellen, outraged by injustice we will nurture and grow our SME sector and produce and the transgression of power at home or abroad, the next wave of industry that will inspire the next sought to do the right thing. She was and still is a generation of entrepreneurs and business leaders. legend. As a young trade unionist, she helped to organise Across my constituency, I have the most incredible the suffrage pilgrimage in 1913, where more than 50,000 businesses across a raft of sectors, whether that is women marched to a mass rally in Hyde Park. In 1935, tourism, agriculture, manufacturing or retail. Talent as the MP for Jarrow, Ellen played a key role in organising abounds in every corner.I want to see more apprenticeships the Jarrow march, an iconic protest against the for young people. I want to see more opportunities for unemployment and poverty in Tyneside. Like me, she young families to excel together and promote the ability would be outraged that today around 2,500 people are to work and live in my wonderful region. That is what I having to claim unemployment benefits in Jarrow. am going to do: support those entrepreneurs, those small Ellen, as an internationalist, condemned General Franco and medium-sized businesses—those risk takers. and supported the Spanish Republicans. She also, in no Finally, I thank my family for their unwavering support uncertain terms, denounced Neville Chamberlain’s —my wife is watching—and my stepfather, who inspired appeasement of Nazi Germany. Here at home when she me and unwittingly started me on this path to Westminster became Education Secretary, she had the monumental but died before I could be here. I stand here wearing task of rebuilding Britain’s schools after six years of your shoes—my feet are killing me. [Laughter.] I am war. A pioneer, she raised the school leaving age from wearing your watch, so you are with me today. I know 14 to 15 and introduced the school milk Act of 1946, that you will be looking down and I know that your which gave free milk to schoolchildren. Her powerful proudest achievement came true: we got Brexit done. speeches can be read in Hansard today.I would encourage all Members to have a read. 2.26 pm Sadly,Ellen died a year before the Labour Government’s greatest achievement, the national health service, and Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Deputy she would be disgusted by the systematic dismantling of Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to make my this vital service. The crisis in our NHS means that staff maiden speech today. It is a great honour to serve in this are overstretched, GP waiting times are longer than House. It is also the greatest honour of my life to be ever, and mental health services are lacking. I would like elected to represent the constituency of Jarrow, and I to assure this House and the people of Jarrow that I will would like to thank the people of Jarrow for putting never stop fighting for our NHS. I will continue the their faith in me. I pay tribute to my predecessor, fight to save Hospital and to make sure , and thank him on behalf of the we have palliative care within the constituency after constituents of Jarrow for his 22 years of unwavering the closure of Saint Clare Hospice. I will fight against support for the place where he was born and raised. I precarious work, zero-hours contracts and unemployment, wish him well for the future. and I will fight for skilled, unionised, well-paid jobs. It is fitting to be called in this debate because as a Like Ellen, I will fight for our children and young councillor for the past 10 years, I have fought for local people to have the education they deserve. We need government funding and services, hit by unending cuts increased funding for our schools and investment in to local authority budgets. I am blessed to represent further education. I will not shirk one of the biggest such a fantastic part of our country. The constituency battles still confronting us today, and that is against of Jarrow is not just the town of Jarrow; it is also universal credit, a catastrophe that has had a cruel Hebburn, Boldon, Cleadon and parts of Gateshead. It effect on our most vulnerable families. There are vulnerable is also the only constituency beginning with the letter J. children in need across the country—children without a Jarrow, with its proud history, powered the industrial stable environment to call their home—and it was in revolution, built as it was on coal, shipbuilding and order to provide these children with a much-needed metal works, but that was to change. Palmers Shipbuilding lifeline that I became a foster carer. I strongly believe and Iron Company closed in the 1930s, Leslie’s yard at communities should look after each other. In Jarrow, 349 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 350

[Kate Osborne] national headlines by applying pressure on Yorkshire Water and the Environment Agency to ensure that our we understand what being a community really means. River Wharfe flows sewage free and has bathing water Weknow all about solidarity, collectivism, trade unionism status. I could go on. It illustrates that it is incredible —all values that I hold dear. people who are the real catalyst for driving positive I have been a trade union rep all my working life—I change. I am honoured to represent a constituency that worked for Royal Mail for 25 years, on the frontline, as has so many. a Unite representative—but now I will shift my focus by On the subject of this debate, local government is holding this Tory Government to account. I will defend vital, but it must work and deliver for those on the our public services, our NHS and our hard-won rights, ground by being truly representative of what people and I will fight for equality and social justice—for a want. In Keighley and ,things are not quite working. society in which nobody is left behind. To the people of For too long, Keighley has sat in the shadows of , Jarrow, I say: I won’t let you down. with a feeling of being forgotten, undervalued and on the periphery of any real, tangible local investment 2.33 pm offered by the Labour-run council administration, but things are about to change. Under this one nation Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): It is a pleasure to Conservative Government, we will get on and get things make my maiden speech as the new Member of Parliament done, and we are seeing that already, through our towns for Keighley and Ilkley and to be making it in a week fund project. I will be bold and aspirational for my full of optimism, as we go forth as an independent constituency. I am going to put Keighley back on the nation. map as the No. 1 place to live, work and thrive. We need It is an awesome feeling to be standing here speaking to revive and revitalise our town centre and get businesses in this place, having started my role in politics in local booming again. We have a rich history, but our potential government. I will never forget the moment when I is so much more exciting. We have world-class walked in here for the first time, with goose bumps on manufacturing businesses based in Keighley, and now is my shoulder, and took my place on these Green Benches. the time to go forth and seize new trading opportunities, But before I go any further, I would like to pay tribute to become nationally—in fact, internationally—recognised to my predecessor, , an incredibly decent as a centre of engineering excellence. and kind gentlemen. John served the constituency well Some of our schools do need improving, and we need for two years after being elected in the 2017 election, more special educational needs provision. Our much-loved and I wish him the best in his new endeavours beyond Airedale Hospital needs a financial boost. However, all politics. that is achievable under this Conservative Government. It must be said that of all of my colleagues in this I want to see Keighley as the beating heart of the place I am honoured to be the one who represents the northern powerhouse—the sparkplug that fires up that most incredible part of our country. Keighley and Ilkley northern powerhouse engine. I want to see our farmers, has a little bit of everything, from the windswept heather who produce the very best food in the world, get the and moor, farmed courageously and with passion by credit and recognition that they deserve. I want Ilkley to many farmers, to the urban landscape of Keighley, once go even further, and to flourish as the ultimate white the epicentre of the textile industry and now harbouring rose of Yorkshire. After all, it is the proud home of the fantastic businesses at the forefront of manufacturing, official Yorkshire anthem. But in getting there, I will engineering and technology.We are home to the Keighley not be frightened of addressing some of those darker and railway. We have the first public challenges that come before us. Drug crime in my library in England funded by Andrew Carnegie. We are constituency is a big problem which needs tackling, and home to the mighty Keighley Cougars and to Timothy the underlying issues surrounding grooming still remain Taylor’s, which produces some of the finest ale this and must be called out. I will not shy away from these country has to offer. We have many talented and hard- responsibilities. working people from across the world in my constituency, So I use this maiden speech not to talk about me, and from the many Italians and eastern Europeans, to the my reasons and drivers for coming to this place. I use Indian population and the strong and proud Pakistani this key speech—my first speech in the House—to say a community. Striving for peace and respect for the rights huge thank you to the people of Keighley and Ilkley for of my constituents’ families in Kashmir will be one of entrusting me with their faith to be their voice in this my priorities in this place. place. It is that trust which is lent at the ballot box, and Towards the north of the constituency lies the beautiful which must now be earned. So as the only ginger male spa town of Ilkley, with an array of independent shops, MP to enter the House through the new 2019 intake— and even a Bettys tea room. Across the constituency, [Laughter]—I look forward to using the inherited red fire whether in Keighley, Ilkley, the Worth valley, , to crack on, roll up my sleeves, graft hard to deliver real, or Steeton, it is the people and their passion for tangible outcomes through this one nation Conservative and pride in the place that shines through. I think of agenda, and put Keighley and Ilkley back on the map. people such as Ben Barns, a constituent in his early 20s in the process of setting up his first business, as a butcher in Keighley’s market hall, or Steve Kelly and his 2.41 pm team at Keighley College, who are passionate about Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Thank ensuring the young people in my constituency have the you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity very best start in life—I was inspired by their “can do” to speak in this crucial debate. Let me first congratulate attitude and willpower to raise aspiration on a recent all those who have made their maiden speeches today visit—or the Ilkley Clean River campaign group, who and represented their constituencies so well, and wish through their own drive and determination have made them good luck for the future. 351 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 352

Once again, we have come to the Chamber because stand up for. More recently, when he first took office as the Government are failing the people of the United Prime Minister, he promised that he would fix the social Kingdom. Money is being kept from those who need it. care crisis once and for all. That undoubtedly lofty aim While local authorities in Conservative areas are awash cannot be reconciled with the reality of this paltry local with money, Labour areas lag behind. The typically government finance settlement. London is home to Labour metropolitan boroughs are set to lose, on average, some of the most deprived areas in the country, and £300 million under the Tories’ so-called fair funding Tory cuts have only made it worse as successive Conservative formula, while—as my right hon. and dear Friend the politicians have pursued frivolities such as the Garden Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) pointed out—leafy, Bridge. well-off shire counties such as Surrey and Buckinghamshire Local government is the only part of government will find the vast majority of that money funnelled into that most people experience. It means their everyday their already gilded pockets. The former Secretary of life: bin collections, potholes, schools, and green spaces. State, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg After a decade of neglect and years of undue pressure Clark), agreed in 2016 that this iniquity should not to make savings, this Tory Government have pushed continue unabated. The Conservatives have repeatedly local government to the brink. The funding settlement cut the budgets of local authorities since 2010. Councils favours Tory shires, and takes from the most in need. in London have been the hardest hit, having seen a Our society needs investment to get rid of the inequalities decrease in core funding of more than 60%. that are so rife in this country. The Government must act, and offer more money for our public services, more Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): money for our young people, more money for social Does my hon. Friend agree that the huge cuts of care, and more hope for those who are still faltering £142 million resulting from central Government settlement under a decade of austerity. That is why I will vote for funding assessments for Birmingham between 2015 and the motion tonight. 2020 are unsustainable, and that any consequent reductions in services should be firmly and resolutely laid at the 2.49 pm door of the Conservative Government? Mr Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): I should like to start by congratulating the hon. Member for Jarrow Mr Sharma: I completely agree, and that is the story (Kate Osborne) and my hon. Friends the Members for of every borough and every area in the country. Keighley (Robbie Moore) and for North Norfolk (Duncan My own local authority, Ealing Council—where I Baker) on their excellent contributions to the debate. I served as a councillor for more than 25 years—now has must say that I envy them the huge relief that I am sure only 34p for every pound that it could spend in 2010. they must now be feeling. I look forward to feeling it Austerity and government cuts mean that less money myself in a few minutes’ time. goes to those who need it, particularly vulnerable children I rise to speak as the seventh Member of Parliament and adults who rely on social care services. Mental to be elected to represent Orpington since the constituency health and child safeguarding services have all been put was created in 1945. I follow some distinguished at risk by the Government’s plans. Ealing is the third predecessors, who are noteworthy for a variety of reasons. most populous and fastest-growing London borough, Time does not permit me to talk about all of them, but I yet it has no maternity unit. My hon. Friend the Member will touch on a couple. The first is William Sumner, who for Ealing North (James Murray) raised the parlous represented the seat between 1955 and 1962. The reason state of GP surgery provision in our borough. With an that I mention William is that he did something very ageing population and a homelessness crisis in London, rare indeed. In order to secure the Conservative nomination, demand for services is set to soar beyond sustainable he defeated a young lady called . levels. That defeat led her to resign from the candidates’ list Funding for youth clubs and youth workers has also and to temporarily abandon her political ambitions. been slashed. The link between cuts in youth spending Fortunately, however, history shows that she recovered and the knife crime epidemic has been made clear by reasonably well from the setback. Baroness Thatcher, as the all-party parliamentary group on knife crime. Youth she later became, and the values that she championed clubs in the heart of my constituency that once welcomed are what drew me into public life. She made Britain young people are now shuttered. Young people need great again, and we on these Benches are the inheritors safe spaces and positive role models to prevent them of her world-shaping legacy. from sliding into a cycle of criminality and poverty that I directly follow in some famous footsteps, because will follow them throughout their lives. Far from saving my immediate predecessor was , a man with money, local government spending cuts have driven the impeccable family connections. However,he is significantly costs of policing and welfare ever higher and have more than merely the sibling of his famous older brother. proved to be a false economy, not just in terms of the He is known for his great intellect, his glittering academic social cost but as an added drain on the public purse. achievements and his distinguished career in journalism. They have made our streets less safe and have put our He rose to high office in Government and continues to young people at risk, and it is incumbent on the Government be highly regarded for having been extremely diligent to do more to make our streets safer. However, it is not and hard-working for his constituents. This was shown just our young people whom this Tory Government are most clearly by the fact that he quadrupled the majority hurting; it is also the elderly and vulnerable, who rely on of slightly under 5,000 that he inherited when he was strong social care and public services to live independent, selected to almost 20,000 at the last election he contested, dignified, full lives. in 2017. I truly have a tough act to follow. Throughout his time as London Mayor, the Prime The Orpington constituency was included in the Minister supported a Government who oversaw swingeing boundaries of the newly formed London Borough of cuts in the London boroughs that he was supposed to Bromley as part of the London Government Act 1963. 353 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 354

[Mr Gareth Bacon] as someone with 22 years of local government experience. The economic shambles left behind by the previous While officially part of , it is in reality a Labour Government in 2010 obliged the incoming coalition collection of idyllic villages in the county of Kent. Government to make significant reductions in public Country lanes, country pubs, village churches and farmers’ spending. It is true to say that local government has had fields are spread across great swaths of the area. That is to share a considerable portion of that burden, but what makes it the best place in the country—contrary careful management of the country’s finances over the to what I heard earlier—to be a Member of Parliament. past decade means that this Conservative Government It is the largest geographical constituency in Greater are now able to address the long-term structural problems London, and two thirds of it are rural. The Darwin that the Blair and Brown Governments created. ward alone is larger than the Royal Borough of Kensington Critically, there is now an opportunity to review and Chelsea. historical baseline funding and to recalibrate it, with Given the rural nature of large parts of the constituency, particular consideration being given to factors such as much of Orpington has not received adequate broadband current population levels and future growth projections. investment over the years, so the Government’s pledge A number of qualitative actions can also be taken, such to roll out full fibre and gigabit-capable broadband to as conferring greater flexibility on local authorities to every home and business across the UK by 2025 is raise and spend their own resources, as well as improving especially welcome. I will be pushing for this to be business rate retention. Most importantly of all, we need expedited locally as swiftly as possible. Similarly, the to recognise and reward those local authorities that rural nature of Orpington means that I have a keen have delivered high-quality public services while continuing understanding of the huge benefits that open green to make efficiencies, such as my own excellent London spaces bring, and any attempt to dilute or remove Borough of Bromley. planning protections for outer London’s green belt would The scale of the Conservative victory in Orpington have significantly adverse consequences for my constituents. on 12 December, with more than 63% of the vote, was a I will therefore lobby for such attempts to be resisted. ringing endorsement of our campaign to “get Brexit The main town centre has a vibrant high street, ably done” so that we could move on to the people’s other supported by the Orpington 1st business improvement priorities. In sending me here to represent them in this district, and I will always stand up for my local businesses. place, the people of Orpington have done me the greatest Orpington has had its fair share of famous residents. honour of my life. It is a great privilege to be here and I The aforementioned Darwin ward is named after its pledge to serve them, and my country, to the best of my most famous resident. Charles Darwin lived in the ability in the years to come. village of Downe, where he wrote his groundbreaking work, “On the Origin of Species”. Challenging orthodox Several hon. Members rose— thinking is not restricted to historical figures, however, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am as the constituency is home to contemporary figures not going to impose a time limit, and if everybody who have made an impact on public consciousness. By a behaves, we will get everyone in with a decent time for quirk of fate, that same village has been home to one their speeches before the wind-ups begin. of my new constituents—a certain Nigel Farage, who, although never a Member of this place, has had an 2.57 pm undeniable impact on British and European politics. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I will We are fortunate to have some of the best schools in characteristically endeavour to behave, Mr Deputy Speaker. the country, and I am looking forward to visiting those It is a massive honour to follow the hon. Member for that have kindly invited me to do so. St. Olave’s Grammar Orpington (Mr Bacon). I hope that he is now feeling the School can trace its roots back to 1571 and its long list relief that he was looking forward to earlier. The of notable alumni includes my hon. Friend the Member combination of Orpington and nerves rings a bell with for Croydon South (Chris Philp). Its counterpart, Newstead me. I spent the night in Orpington before Blackburn Wood School for girls, has as its most famous alumna Rovers won the league in 1995, and I could not sleep. I the reigning women’s 200-metre world champion, Dina got the train back home, and the rest is history. I am Asher-Smith, who grew up locally and of whom we are also, by the way, the sixth-great-nephew, by marriage extremely proud. and adoption, of Charles Darwin, so it is a delight to Orpington has also played its part on the national and know that I had a famous relative in the hon. Gentleman’s international stage, including in the hour of this country’s constituency. It was also a delight and an honour to greatest peril. Biggin Hill airport is now a general listen to the maiden speeches of the hon. Members for aviation airport that caters mostly for private aircraft, North Norfolk (Duncan Baker) and for Jarrow (Kate but during the second world war it was an RAF base Osborne), and to engage in some ginger solidarity with and played a major role in the battle of Britain. Spitfires the hon. Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore). I wish and Hurricanes from a variety of squadrons were based them all the very best for their time in this place. there,and its fighter pilots destroyed more than 1,400 enemy Turning to the matter in hand, local authority funding aircraft. Many of the nearby housing developments are cuts are the easiest for any Government of any colour named after those RAF personnel who gave their lives to make. They make the savings, then someone else gets to defend their country. Reading of those pilots’ exploits, the blame. It is a transparent tactic, but I am not sure and in particular of the age at which so many of them that it is as politically risk-free as Governments tend made the ultimate sacrifice, is truly humbling. to think it is. It has certainly caused serious harm to I shall turn now to the business at hand: local government families and communities right across the country. In finance. With the fair funding review ongoing, this is an my time serving in this place since my maiden speech— opportune moment to examine that subject, and I speak which I think was recorded on Betamax—our county 355 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 356 council, our district council and our two national parks, This is also the Government who promised a specialist the Lake District and the Yorkshire Dales, have suffered one-to-one eating disorder service to the children and significant cuts. It is worth bearing it in mind that young people of south Cumbria, but they have still national parks unofficially form part of the local failed to deliver that service four years on. government family, although they have no council tax- The motion rightly mentions both adult and children’s raising powers. The Lake District is the national park social care. As we speak, a 96-year-old constituent with the biggest population of any in the country, and it of mine has been stuck in a care home for more than acts as a local authority in relation to some housing, 10 months because the council has been unable to put a planning and environmental matters for anyone who care package together. At his advancing age, he is being lives there. With that lack of ability to raise money of its denied the ability to live out his time in familiar surroundings own, those cuts are felt more keenly, to the extent that with the ones he loves. Social care is now threadbare. A the Lake District national park is even talking about lady who had life-changing injuries, rendering her severely selling off iconic pieces of land. disabled, has sought my help on many occasions when Cuts are not without consequence. Our police service carers have not turned up, leaving her completely unable also has to live with the cuts that have effectively been to access food or water. It is, of course, always the most imposed upon it. Our police and crime commissioner vulnerable who are hit first and hit hardest by the loss has been forced to raise additional council tax just to of services. The omission of deprivation from the prevent the Conservatives’ cuts from getting any worse Government’s calculation of funding seems to be a case over recent years.Our police are left increasingly vulnerable, of the Conservatives looking at the injuries that they with a mere handful of officers—sometimes as few as have caused and then choosing to throw insult on top six at any given time—left to protect my constituency, of them. which covers an area the size of Greater London. According to the usual metric, my constituency is not the most deprived. We have unemployment at less than Owing to the Conservatives taking money away from 1%, although 2,300 children are living in poverty, which our councils, most head teachers in South Lakeland is a reminder of the growing number of people in work have had to lay off staff, reduce teachers’ hours or and in poverty, and other parts of Cumbria, especially merge classes. The Conservatives take advantage of the in the west, will be hugely hit by the Government’s fact that heads want to be professional, disguise their choice to ignore deprivation. But the Government have financial hardship and protect children and parents, so made a choice, and it is to be cloth eared to the needs of those cuts are often safely hidden, but they hurt. They rural northern communities such as mine.Local government hurt children with special needs the most, but that is funding is not some dry municipal concern; it is about apparently okay so long as the Government can find a the people who need care, the children in our schools, way to escape the blame and pass it on to local government. and the safety of our communities. That is why fairness Like the constituencies of all today’s maiden speakers, matters. The Government must do a U-turn on their my constituency is stunningly beautiful, but it is also cuts to rural northern communities, because Cumbria vast, and its communities are dispersed. Public transport deserves better than this. is vital to keeping people connected, preventing isolation and loneliness, and ensuring that people can get to 3.4 pm work, school or college or, indeed, go shopping. Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Government council cuts mean that Cumbria no longer (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for has any subsidised bus services. We recently successfully Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), whom I always fought to protect under-threat services in Arnside, Levens listen to with care, and the several maiden speeches and Cartmel, but we should not have to fight tooth and from both sides of the House, especially those of my nail to save every single route. Weshould have a settlement hon. Friends the Members for Keighley (Robbie Moore), that underpins a vibrant, affordable and reliable bus for Orpington (Mr Bacon) and for North Norfolk service right across the south lakes and Cumbria. (Duncan Baker). It is great to hear such strong voices The Government have even slashed funding in areas on the Government Benches, and I look forward to further where they promised investment. Just over a year ago, contributions. having loudly proclaimed their commitment to preventive Local government in Dorset has changed significantly health care in the NHS long-term plan, the Government over the past year, with nine councils merging into two then cut public health budgets by £85 million within a in the run-up to the elections. My constituency is one of matter of weeks. That means that Cumbria’s spending only two that covers both new unitary authorities. Of is now set to drop to just £36 per head. That is barely course, there were many reasons for the changes, but half the national average of £63 per head and ridiculously one of the main drivers was financial. Back-office savings, lower than the £241 per head per year that the City of the rationalisation of office space, and a reduction in London receives. the number of senior staff have been painful but necessary The impact of that has been tangible. With the loss of decisions to ensure that frontline services can continue school nurses, children have been left vulnerable to to be maintained. slipping into bad mental, dental and physical health, Despite the changes, both Dorset Council and BCP and the Government’s cuts mean that Cumbria now Council remain in a challenging financial position. spends only a pathetic 75p per child per year on preventive Additional funding is welcome, of course—I always say mental health. We know that proper investment in that—and it has added to both councils’ spending power. public health budgets would allow us to place a mental However, that is often offset by greater demands, not health worker in every school, which is key to young least in relation to adult social care and children’s people being resilient and healthy and to ensuring that services. Dorset has many advantages. It is a great place problems do not become so severe further down the line. to live and work, but is also a great place to retire to, 357 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 358

[Michael Tomlinson] certainty that is required. That will mean they can move on and be more strategic in future, so I welcome what with an above average 17% of the population over the the Northern Powerhouse Minister said in opening. age of 70. That proportion is growing, so we are facing I hope the Under-Secretary will echo and re-emphasise adult social care challenges. Social care is by far the the importance of this funding and reassure my councils largest part of the budget, placing considerable strain in Dorset and Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole on our local councils. that he recognises the need for a longer-term financial I therefore welcome the Government’s promise to settlement. produce a social care Green Paper. A long-term solution Councils in Dorset have taken the brave and is absolutely required, and I particularly welcome the commendable steps to reorganise and to ensure that recognition in the Prime Minister’s amendment this frontline services are given the greatest priority. Ever- afternoon of increasing council tax is not a long-term solution, as I “the pressures on adult and children’s social care” know Ministers recognise. I welcome the amendment in and the move to a fairer funding formula. Much has the name of the Prime Minister, and I will support it in been said by Opposition Members about the fairer the Lobby this afternoon. funding formula, but it will be absolutely crucial for residents in Mid Dorset and North Poole. We need a 3.11 pm fairer settlement that reflects the challenges of living in rural areas. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell Rachel Hopkins ( South) (Lab): I am pleased and Newquay (Steve Double) made an intervention at that we are having this Opposition day debate on a the outset of the debate noting that deprivation was not topic that directly impacts on all our constituents’day-to-day only found in inner-city areas, because it is found in all lives. The aim of any Government should be to ensure our constituencies and in rural areas. that people’s day-to-day lives are improved and to give people a greater stake in society. To achieve that, we However, despite what we have heard from Opposition must empower the collective voice of our communities—our Members, the majority of the increases in council funding local councils. this year have been seen in urban areas. Once again, shire counties have received comparatively less. The Instead of listening to and supporting our councils, shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Denton and the past 10 years of Tory austerity have seen their Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), refused to take my intervention resources cut, with no account taken of deprivation and earlier, so I will tell him now—I am pleased to see him demand-led need. Many services have been pushed to still in his place—that rural and shire counties receive breaking point. It has created an impossible task for an average of £240 per person. That is the point that my local councils so, rather than looking to improve lives, hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin as councils want to do, they are now desperately trying Hollinrake) was making in several interventions, but he to sustain the safety of local people. is better than I am at intervening. Rural and shire counties We have a brilliant Labour-led council in Luton that receive £240 per person compared with £419 for metro- listens and responds to its local community, but it can politan and city authorities and £601 for inner-London only do so much when, year on year, central Government authorities. That is why it is crucial that the Government funding is cut, which has led to over £130 million-worth grapple with this issue in their fair funding review, as I of cuts since 2010. Spending has needed to be redirected know that they are doing. to address the increasing demand for adult social care and children’s services, on which much has already been Preet Kaur Gill: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that said, and to address the disgraceful rise in homelessness, councils of all political persuasions are already, as he which is particularly affecting Luton. Both issues require said, in severe financial trouble following 10 years of a national strategy, not just local sticking-plasters. savage cuts by the Conservative Government? The Since 2010, Luton has seen spending on libraries, Government’s new adult social care funding formula, museums and heritage services cut by 55%; spending on which will actually see Birmingham lose almost £50 million, transport and local bus services cut by 55%; and spending will further exacerbate inequalities both within and on community safety cut by nearly 30%. This Government between councils. have completely dismantled our local councils’ ability Michael Tomlinson: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s to improve communities on the frontline.Now our councils’ intervention, but I do not accept her point. My point is simple aim is to best soften the blow of austerity. that we need to look more broadly. The funding given These irresponsible cuts have directly led to the suffering to rural areas is not enough, including in my constituency of vulnerable people in my constituency. By cutting the of Mid Dorset and North Poole. I do not accept or revenue support grant and central funding, the Government recognise her figures.Indeed, I am sure the Under-Secretary are increasing the emphasis on regressive taxation such of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, as council tax and business rates. In areas such as my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate Luton, we cannot raise as much council tax due to the (Luke Hall), will dispute those figures, as the Minister size of our houses—the majority are band A and band B for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth did in properties. Even if we could raise council tax, we know opening. that many people are struggling to pay it. We cannot My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst raise much income through the new homes bonus because (Sir Robert Neill) said that our local authorities needed we are a very urban area and cannot build many more greater security through a longer-term financial settlement. houses. I understand what he says, and he makes a valid point The Government profess to be increasing spending as about the need for a one-year settlement, but we need a part of their council funding review but, as has been longer settlement to give councils the greater financial repeatedly said, a simple increase in per-head funding 359 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 360 would not be based on need. In our area, such an housing and temporary accommodation has increased. increase represents a giveaway to the Tory leafy shires—I Councils in England are spending 78% more on temporary could go on—at the expense of more deprived post- accommodation than they did five years ago. industrial towns, which have disproportionately higher One of the biggest challenges we have seen in levels of deprivation. The situation is stark in my has been the response to the Grenfell fire disaster. constituency, which differs from the constituency of the Lambeth has 122 medium-to-high-rise blocks and although hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael the £600 million fund from the Government to remove Tomlinson). dangerous cladding is welcome, that is just a small pot. The whole of Luton South deserves investment. Will The money must be spread across the entirety of the the Minister explain to me and my constituents why the country and it will not be enough to cover the vital Caddington area of my constituency, which falls under work to provide the fire safety improvements that residents Central Council—a more rural, Tory deserve, nor will it reduce the horrific amount of time council—will receive an indicative 20% increase, whereas that it has taken some private block owners to remove the area of my constituency, hazardous cladding from their buildings. Councils and which covers many more areas of deprivation, will local authorities were not responsible for the regulatory receive only a 1.5% increase? Taking those figures another failures that led to Grenfell, yet they are having to pick way, can he explain why people living in Luton Borough up the pieces, out of squeezed budgets, to make their Council’s ward, where child poverty is at 55%, do areas safer. It is time for the Government to support our not deserve at least the same increase as those living in councils and provide the funding not just to remove Caddington, where child poverty is at 15%? Are children dangerous cladding, but to provide other critical safety in Biscot worth less than children in Caddington? I say work needed in social blocks and to give powers and not. In my constituency we are all equal. Funding needs funding to councils to confiscate private blocks that fail to be allocated based on people’s needs, not on political to remove cladding and make their residents safe. giveaways. It is not just on the council level that the Government Decisions made in Whitehall are completely detached are failing administrations. Here in London, the from the streets of Luton. I ask the Minister, or any of Government are passing the buck to the Greater London the ministerial team, to come and visit Luton—it is a Authority. Unfortunately, we have seen a stark rise in short hop on the train, so it is easy to do—to see the violent crime in the capital over the past few years. The difference. Come and visit Biscot, , South or Metropolitan police are taking the issue seriously, but Farley and tell my constituents that they do not deserve they have been let down by this Government because increased investment in their services. their funding has also been cut. Thankfully we have a If the Government’s latest funding announcement Mayor, in Sadiq Khan, who recognises the need for actually represented a fair funding review, I guarantee urgent funding. Just last week, he announced an increase that Luton would be receiving a much higher funding to the City Hall precept in council tax, which will increase than 1.5%. provide almost £15.7 million to fast-track the introduction of 600 new officers. I am sure all Londoners will welcome 3.16 pm that change and I applaud our Mayor for taking that Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate action, but why should a Labour Mayor be raising taxes all my colleagues who have made their maiden speech to pay for a Conservative manifesto promise? If the today, including the hon. Member for Orpington Conservatives party wants authorities to deliver on its (Mr Bacon), who is no longer here, with whom I serve manifesto promises, perhaps it should give councils and on the London Assembly. authorities greater powers to raise funds through sensible borrowing for investment or through progressive taxation As a former councillor and a current member of the systems, instead of tying their legs and forcing the London Assembly, I am delighted to speak on an issue ideology of austerity on councils. that is so important to us all. Local government may not be the hottest topic on everyone’s lips, but the What links all these things is the fact that the Government decisions made by our councillors on local regeneration, continue to pass the buck on many of the issues that housing, bins and potholes are important—many have a big impact on people’s day-to-day lives. It is councillors have been taking pictures with potholes for councils that take the blame when council tax goes up their council websites—and they matter to the people but bin collections go down because our authorities we all represent. have to fill the gaps left by the Government. In London, Our local councils play a crucial part in all our it is the Mayor who has taken the flack for increasing communities and make a massive impact on our day-to-day his council tax precept when the Government have cut lives, but the reality is that local government has suffered the funding for the Met police since 2010. This is not over the last 10 years under this Conservative Government bold governance; it is political opportunism, at the and the coalition Government before them. Councils expense of hard-working councillors and local authorities. up and down the country have been crippled by budget I urge the Government to take responsibility and give cuts, and in Lambeth we lost over half of our core our local government bodies the funding they urgently funding from central Government between 2010 and deserve. 2018. Lambeth Council has been forced to make over £200 million of savings just to make the books balance. 3.21 pm At the same time, the pressure on our councils has Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is a shot up. Social care has become a massive issue across pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Vauxhall the country. In Lambeth, we have also seen the number (Florence Eshalomi), who made some interesting points, of families in temporary accommodation almost double particularly on Grenfell and the cladding situation, between 2012 and 2019, at a time when the cost of which I have spoken about many times in this Chamber. 361 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 362

[Kevin Hollinrake] start; we want our solution to be the solution.” I have heard that from Opposition Members a number of I agree with some of the points she made about that. It times, although I do not think that this shadow Minister was also a great pleasure to listen to the hon. Member is of the same view, and I have been given that answer for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), who made an excellent on the Floor of the House. It is simply wrong. We must maiden speech, as did my hon. Friends the Members for have cross-party talks on the basis that everything is on Orpington (Mr Bacon), for Keighley (Robbie Moore) the table, we sit down and discuss it, and we see where and for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), who are no we can find common ground. longer in their places. I have definitely tasted some We do that, of course, in Select Committees. The Cromer crab in my time and probably more than my most constructive thing that any of us do in this place fair share of Tim Taylor’s Landlord beer. as Back Benchers is to sit on a Select Committee where It is good to see that the Opposition acknowledge the we discuss things cross-party. I have served on the need for a fairer system of spending distribution, and I Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee concur with that. The Government started on this road for four and a half years. It has a fantastic Chair in the to try to make the system fairer, as it is certainly not fair hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts). We at the moment. It is not fair in the amount of money have done dozens of inquiries over that time and have allocated to shires and to cities; there is a huge disparity never had a single falling-out: all the reports are published there. We are talking about more than twice as much with unanimous support. That means that we can get to money—in some cases, almost three times as much—per a position where we can agree on some basic principles capita in cities compared with counties. Let us look at to take policies forward, which is what we have to do overall spending power. North Yorkshire, if we add in with social care. both tiers of local government, has about £770 of spending ability per capita, whereas in London—in the Last year, the HCLG Committee held a joint inquiry top 10 authorities—the figure is about £1,000 to £1,100. with the Health Committee on future funding of social That is despite the fact that their populations are younger care. In our report we came up with a number of and better-off than my local populations in North options, all of which we should discuss in the cross-party Yorkshire. It is simply an unfair system and it needs to talks. One of them was to adopt a social insurance-style be rectified. system similar to the one introduced in Germany in 1995. It is great to see Opposition Members nodding in Council tax in many shires, including in North Yorkshire, agreement with that. Until that point, Germany also is almost twice as high as in many places around the had a local authority-funded system, but that was seen country. The Opposition say, “That means you can raise as an inappropriate way to raise money to pay for social more money more easily by increasing council tax.” care because there was no correlation between the need That is, of course, true, but there is a failure to see the for social care and the money that could be raised at a irony: the iniquity whereby, despite getting less money, local level. They need to be totally separate. We held a we contribute much more locally for our services ourselves, long inquiry. In fact, the HCLG Committee visited because lots of these cities are getting a far bigger slice Germany to look at its system, which is simple, scalable, of the pie from central Government moneys. That is and—critically—will stand the test of time. where the iniquity lies. I am glad the Opposition see that we need a fairer We cannot solve the issue through general taxation. system, as I agree with that. We also need to make the A report by the Office for Budget Responsibility said system fairer progressively. I do not think it is right to that if we carry on taxing things as we do today in terms rob Peter to pay Paul, but that is not what this consultation of the need for things like social care, healthcare and is about. It is about introducing extra money over a pensions, our debt-to-GDP ratio will rise from 80% to period of time, so all boats are lifted in a rising tide. 280%. The taxpayer simply cannot pay for that out of That is exactly where we need to be. The system has to general taxation; we have to find a different solution. be progressive so that those who are not getting a good For me, an insurance-based solution is the best thing. deal now are better treated than those who are getting a We developed a similar system for pensions with auto- much larger slice of the pie today, and, as the consultation enrolment, although that is not mandatory and this says, it happens over time—three to five years. I absolutely does need to be mandatory. So we do have a precedent accept that it would not be right for some people’s share in the UK for something that is scalable and sustainable. to go down, but that is not what the consultation is The 22 members of the Select Committee, cross-party, saying. endorsed the German system. It is a very good, simple The key to all this is that the biggest area of discretionary system. It is based on about 2.5% of earnings, some spend by local authorities is in adult social care. That is paid by the employer and some by the employees. The the major problem that we need to solve. The Government basic principle is that everybody gives something so that are absolutely right to say that we need to do that on a nobody has to give everything. In my business life, cross-party basis, because that is the only way we will whenever we were faced with a big problem, we always get a sustainable solution. Otherwise, the Opposition looked for somewhere else that had solved it. This has will say at the next election that they are campaigning to been solved over in Germany. The biggest benefit of the do it differently and the issue will become a political system is that when someone needs care, they are football again. We need to move away from that and independently assessed and choose either to take that agree on something cross-party. The Government have care from a provider such as the local authority or to said that, and I absolutely accept that we need to bring draw down the money and pay it to a relative, neighbour forward a Green Paper so that we can look at the options. or loved one who can look after them. It is by far the However, it is not right when someone like the shadow best system. We need to develop this whole policy area Health Secretary says, “We’ll agree to cross-party talks cross-party, and I look forward to doing that with as long as you agree to our preconditions before we Opposition Members. 363 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 364

3.29 pm Borough of Newham. Newham covers 36 sq km, but we have more children living with that form of hidden Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): First, I congratulate homelessness—poverty,and poverty of opportunity —than hon. Members who have given maiden speeches,particularly entire regions of England. Let me be clear: that means my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne)—I Yorkshire and the Humber,north-east England, south-west loved her stuff about Ellen Wilkinson, who has always England and the east midlands combined. Greater need, been a massive heroine of mine. I also congratulate the and greater costs for the council, are located in 36 sq km hon. Members for Orpington (Mr Bacon), for Keighley than in 63,000 sq km. (Robbie Moore), and for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker). I was reminded of my husband complaining to his I thought the Secretary of State might be present for business partner after I said that I had booked a weekend this debate, so I looked at his local authority, Newark away in Keighley. He said, “What, we are going to and Sherwood District Council. There is deprivation Bradford?” Never mind. and unfairness in the Secretary of State’s patch—I have seen the deprivation map—but overall the number of As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for children stuck in temporary accommodation in Newark Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) and other hon. is 16. That is 483 times lower than the figure in Newham, Friends, the Government’s rhetoric about levelling up is so how exactly is it fair to prioritise places such as not really going to do much for the constituencies that Newark over places such as Newham? Newham and they won in December. To be honest, I am worried Newark are not the same—none of our places are the about what it is going to do in my constituency too. same—and different places do not have the same level I would like to set the scene a little bit and introduce of need. They do not have the same deprivation or the Government Members to Newham, which is one of same projected population growth for the very near areas worst damaged by austerity.If the proposed funding future as we have. They do not have the same living settlement is approved, Newham’s grant will go from costs for council staff, the same numbers of old people £244 million in 2013 to £148 million in the coming year. or the same numbers of children needing care. As we In that period, our population has grown by 15%, so the know, those latter two services are the most expensive cut is almost 50% per person over seven years. We have council services of all. Different places cannot raise an the second-highest child poverty rate in the country, equal amount of revenue. In Newark, a 4% rise in made worse by cuts to children’s services. We have council tax raises £14 million; in Newham, it gets us just terrible problems with knife violence, made worse by a £3 million. decade of cuts to youth services. We do have, thank This is not actually about fairness. All these fine goodness, strong communities, but they are struggling words are cover for a massive transfer of resources from after a decade of across-the-board cuts. historically Labour areas—including the seats just won Today I want to focus on just one point, because time by Conservative Members—to the Tory shires. The is short. I talk regularly about the harm that homelessness Government’s plans will not help areas like mine, and in temporary accommodation does to our children. they will not solve our problems or heal our divisions, Going into temporary accommodation means losing a either. To be honest, they are only going to deepen them. sense of security. It means losing a safe, warm home. It often means parents losing jobs, and losing the support 3.36 pm network of family and friends, because people are moving David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) away from their family, often miles and miles away, with (Con): I am grateful, at this point in the debate, for my no choice whatever. It means having to change schools experience in local government, where a three-minute constantly, or travel for hours to keep the one little limit is standard when speaking in chambers. Mindful thing that is solid and secure in a child’s life—a place at of the time, I wish to focus on a key point for Ministers their secondary or primary school. More and more to consider as we welcome the consultation. often, it means being moved halfway across the country. The Local Government Finance Acts of 1988 and We should be clear about why this is happening—it is 1992 are the main underpinnings of what happens in because of low wages, extortionate private rents, and this country when it comes to local government finance slashed housing support. That is not all the responsibility decisions. Local authorities’ duties are driven largely by of the Secretary of State—I get that, and it is a shame the legislation passed in this House over the years, that he is not here to hear it—but if council homes were including the Health and Social Care Act 2012, the available, like the one I had when I was growing up, none Children Act 1989, the Children (Leaving Care) Act of those causes would lead to the extent of homelessness 2000 and many others. We can all recognise that over that we now see. In Newham, we have 27,000 families many years the funding level has not kept pace with the on the homelessness waiting list. They need and deserve legal obligations imposed on local authorities by the a safe and affordable home, but they are denied that duties agreed in this House. It is therefore welcome that home because council houses were sold off and never the Government are beginning to think of a funding ever replaced. Grants to replace those homes have now formula that is fair in that it addresses the fact that, in been cut. The rise in temporary accommodation has many parts of the country, funding now lags significantly causes in Government decisions. behind the legal obligations that local authorities have That has massive consequences for council finances. to deal with. Our local authorities are spending over £1 billion a year My own constituency of Ruislip, Northwood and on temporary accommodation, often at absurd prices Pinner is no exception in having significant numbers of for dire quality. The net temporary accommodation bill elderly residents who are asset rich but cash poor, for for Newham has reached £5.5 million a year. The scale whom the local authority has a legal duty to provide of the crisis is absolutely massive. There are 7,725 children social care but who would not be recognised in any of in temporary accommodation paid for by the London the funding formulae we saw under the previous 365 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 366

[David Simmonds] represented by Conservative MPs. It is little wonder that the actual formula—the data, analysis and impact—has Government, which prioritised poverty in general as not been shared with the House at all. Why is that? The opposed to local authorities’ specific duties arising out answer is that the Government realised that they need of their obligations. to go back—[Interruption.] I am going to continue, so When they take forward the consultation, I urge that the Minister has time to respond. Ministers to consider the broader picture of local Council tax increases generate very different amounts government finance, because the core grant—the revenue of money, depending on the locality and its funding support grant, as was—is only a small part of that base. A 5% increase in Wokingham would generate picture. We have heard Members mention council tax £5.2 million, while the same percentage increase in and business rates, but of course elements such as the Knowsley would generate just half that amount, even housing revenue account are a significant factor in local though both areas have a similar population base. That authorities’ ability to deploy resources. Indeed, one is no way to fund adult social care. There is a genuine challenge we have seen is that the benefit of the new postcode lottery whereby house price valuations that homes bonus has in many areas accrued to district are nearly 30 years old determine whether somebody councils, while the costs of providing adult and children’s gets looked after in their old age. I just do not think that social care services has to be met by counties. That is is a fair way to do it. one reason why the pressure has become so acute. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow Across the picture, we see a situation in which local (Kate Osborne) on her fantastic maiden speech. What government resources are under significant pressure. stood out in particular for me was the sense of the More flexibility about how we deploy those resources power of community. In spite of deindustrialisation and and more recognition of the innovation and entrepreneurial the real pressures faced through austerity, it is the power approach that many local authorities have brought to of people and place that binds and makes communities. the issue would be welcome, as would an approach that The Government just need to be a bit more on their side recognises that, given that resources are tight, we must in future, compared with the past 10 years. prioritise the meeting of local government’s core legal My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall obligations to our citizens, which is absolutely a fair (Mr Sharma) highlighted that £300 million has been approach to dealing with local government funding. I taken from his local authority budget, and noted that commend to the House the approach that the Government the fair funding review is far from fair. It takes money have taken. from areas of high deprivation and directs it to more affluent areas, which is absolutely the opposite of fair. 3.39 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Rachel Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): Hopkins) highlighted a £130 million cut and its impact It is a privilege to wind up this important debate. We all on neighbourhoods. My hon. Friend the Member for believe in the power of local public services, but you Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) highlighted the important can’t do it on the cheap. role that councillors play in making sure that we have May I congratulate Government Members who have strong local leadership, but they need Government on made their maiden speeches today? The hon. Members their side. Far too often, when we ask the Government for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), for Keighley (Robbie to step up and to do what is right, they are late in doing Moore) and for Orpington (Mr Bacon) all displayed a so, like some Members arriving in the Chamber. The real sense of place and community. example was given of the Government being far too late May I also thank my fellow Labour Members for their in responding to the cladding issues facing many tower contributions? My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield blocks. I am afraid that that is just not good enough. South East (Mr Betts) is, of course, the Chair of the The truth is that the Government do not want to talk Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, about finance. They know that they are not on strong which has done a great deal of work on local government ground on that issue. They certainly do not want to give finance and devolution in particular. He was very clear any detail about the fair funding review, because it that unless we address the crippling pressure on adult would highlight just how unfair the review really is. I am social care and children’sservices, there will be a £10 billion glad that the Ministers are sitting down, because this funding gap. He also commented on the real pressure will surprise them: we are not going to accept the on and costs for neighbourhood services, which we all amendment tabled in the Prime Minister’s name. It does see in our communities. Many of the services on which not mention finance; it talks about devolution. The we rely have had to be removed so that adult social care Prime Minister wants to be able to pretend that his and children’s services can be kept going. flavour of devolution is all about giving people power, My right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham but that is not what we have experienced. (Mr Jones) pointed out that the red wall Tories were all Under this Government, many parts of this country absent from this debate, even though the areas they have been denied devolution. There is no clear framework represent—[Interruption.] to enable local areas to know exactly what types of powers can be devolved to them. What we see with this Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Member for Sedgefield Government is a flavour of devolution that goes from (Paul Howell) is waving, but he has not been here for Ministers to Mayors, whereas Labour recognises that most of the debate. to give real power to communities, we need to start off in neighbourhoods and work up to the nation. Jim McMahon: Better late than never. The hon. Neighbourhoods and communities have not been central Gentleman has missed contributions highlighting the to the Government’s devolution agenda, and that has impact of austerity and cuts on many of the seats now been the hallmark of all we have seen from this Government. 367 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 368

I am glad that Labour Mayors are using their powers to in 2010; they have been sacked and sent out the door ensure that the worst excesses of this Government do because councils do not have the money to pay them. not filter down as strongly through to their communities That is the reality on the ground. they serve. When we were told that austerity was over, I do not We have talked about the town centre fund. Clearly, think that anybody really expected that we would go all of us want to see investment in our town centres. We back to 2010, but nor do I think that anybody expected recognise their importance at the heart of our communities, the cuts to go even deeper even faster, and that is exactly and the decline that many have seen while retail has what will happen under the fair funding review.I challenge struggled to catch up with the online world. But frankly, the Minister—if he is so confident that that his fair we will never make progress if the Government are not funding review is well thought through and genuinely willing to recognise that the business rates system is fair, and that the evidence base is robust and can be actively harming our high streets and town centres. It is tested, what is there to hide? Why not place the data in not good enough to give just the local independents a the Library by the end of the week, so that every boost. Of course that is welcome, but it does not go far Member of this Parliament can hold the Government enough. Doing only that massively underestimates the to account? importance of anchor stores to bring footfall into big town centres. 3.48 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Kevin Hollinrake: I think the shadow Minister said Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): I want that the business rates system is driving the change on to start by thanking all Members who have contributed the high street. I speak as somebody who has a number to the debate. It has been a lively and, at times, fiery of properties in my business, and that is not what is debate, but certainly a constructive one, and we had driving this change. It is a change in consumer behaviour some genuinely important issues to discuss. that is driving the change on the high street. I would like to congratulate all Members who made their maiden speeches today. The hon. Member for Jim McMahon: It is right to reflect that the high Jarrow (Kate Osborne) gave a passionate speech about street will always evolve. It will never be what it was, and the industrial heritage and history of her community it will of course be different in the future. But that does and the inspiration that Ellen Wilkinson provided. I not mean that we should just give up and accept that congratulate her on what she said about fighting for the decline is inevitable. The types of spaces that are often principles she believes in and for health services, children’s talked about are bespoke spaces. It might be possible to services and workers’ rights. From her maiden speech, reuse a single shop front, but how it is possible to reuse her constituents will be assured that she will be a a whole shopping centre that was built to be a retail passionate and doughty champion for them in this House. core? My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk The Government’s agenda of only supporting (Duncan Baker) talked about his 14,000 majority, which independent traders massively underestimates the impact I am sure all of us are jealous of. He started his speech of anchor stores such as Debenhams or Marks & Spencer, by explaining that it would be a love letter to North which bring footfall through a town centre. How can it Norfolk, and it certainly was. He talked passionately be right that companies such as Amazon can have very about his work on both the town council and the clever accountants to hide their profits away from Her district council. He mentioned that he was nicknamed Majesty’s Revenue and Customs—which cleaners in “a young Norman” during the campaign; I am sure that their factories would not be able to do, by the way? How that will follow him in the House. He talked passionately can it be right that Manchester airport’s warehouse about his late stepfather, who built up a business and distribution centre pays half the business rates of was an inspiration to him. I am sure that everyone who Debenhams in Manchester city centre? Where is the heard his speech agrees that his stepfather would be proud fairness in that system? If the Government really want a of him. future for town centres and high streets, they really have My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Robbie to address that issue. Moore) talked about the beautiful rural and urban The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local landscapes in his constituency and the unanimous support Growth, the right hon. Member for Rossendale and in the House for the Timothy Taylor’s beer produced Darwen (Jake Berry), was right to thank local government, there. He talked about how local government must be but I am afraid that it will be beyond ironic to many representative. From his speech, we will all be reassured that these thanks came from the Minister who has of the excellent representation he will provide in this lorded over austerity and who tries to ignore the fact House as a Member of Parliament, and I know that he that the last 10 years have been under a Tory Government, will succeed in putting Keighley and Ilkley on the map. whether in coalition or not. I am afraid that it is not My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr Bacon) good enough for him to disown the last 10 years as if talked passionately about his predecessors and the big they had never happened. shoes that he had to fill. He was right to pay tribute to Most councils have done a fantastic job to survive. It Jo Johnson, a hard-working local MP, and to mention has been the hard work and leadership of local councillors his belief that his constituency is the best place to live in that has meant that many areas have not just been about the country, although I am sure that there will be decline, but have been offered hope. Council officers 649 other opinions on that. He also talked about the have worked so hard to ensure that public services can importance of the fair funding review. I am sure that we be delivered. But while thanking them, maybe we should will come on to talk about that, but I know that we will give consideration to the fact that there are more than all benefit from his 22 years of local government experience, 900,000 fewer council officers today than there were and we are grateful for his contribution this afternoon. 369 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 370

[Luke Hall] 3.4% in real terms, in line with the additional investment in the national health service in 2020-21. However, we Local government has a unique and far-reaching role of course want to think about the long term, and that is to play in our communities. It delivers services that we why we are committed to fixing the crisis in social care rely on day in, day out, and debates on the funding of once and for all to give people the dignity and security the sector and the challenges and opportunities ahead they deserve. We will seek to reach across the Floor and for it are some of the most important that we have in build cross-party consensus to ensure that we do have a the House. We will provide the funding for social care, long-term solution. education, transport, housing, health and local growth One of the other main themes of this debate has been to flourish, and that is why core spending power for the fair funding review. We heard from the hon. Member local government will increase from £46.2 billion to for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins), from my hon. Friend £49.1 billion in 2020-21—a 4.4% real-terms increase the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert across the sector. Neill) about his long experience in local government A number of Members talked about the pressures and the importance of simplifying the formula, and facing adult and children’s social care. My hon. Friend from my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael and Pinner (David Simmonds) about delivering the Tomlinson) gave an important speech about the pressure formula. I think we should be clear that the sector has on social care in his constituency and the unique challenges asked us for a simpler,up-to-date, evidence-based funding faced by parts of the country with high levels of internal formula, and that is what we are going to deliver. migration. The Chairman of the Housing, Communities The figures we have heard this afternoon are pure and Local Government Committee, the hon. Member speculation. They use out-of-date cost adjusters and for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), was right to talk out-of-date population data, and they are pure speculation. about the importance of cross-party discussions on this It is worth saying that this should be a completely matter getting under way and how the work that he and evidence-based review. It is being developed hand in the Committee have done on ways to make progress hand with leading academics; it is not a simplistic could be an example for talks. The right hon. Member exercise. I understand why hon. Members have raised it for North Durham (Mr Jones) talked about the pressure today, but this is not about north versus south, rural on social care, and my hon. Friend the hon. Member for versus urban or Labour versus Conservative. It is about Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) highlighted the developing a needs-based formula that takes into account importance of cross-party work and support. deprivation, rurality and other cost drivers; that is It is absolutely true that councils face pressures on weighted appropriately and adjusted for the costs of adult and children’s care services—that is something we delivering services in different areas; that is balanced are hearing from the sector and from councils across with the resources available to different authorities to the country. This settlement, when it is put before the fund those services; and, of course, that is considered House, will address that. We have given almost £6 billion against any transitional arrangements the Government of dedicated funding across social care. That includes may wish to make. It is simply not possible to predict the extra £1 billion grant for adult and children’s social the overall outcome for individual authorities or groups care, on top of the continuation of existing social care of authorities based on one or couple of these formulas. grants worth £2.5 billion. Ultimately, this review should be a collective endeavour It is not just about the grant funding that we have with our colleagues in local government, and it is provided. Councils are paying for their services through underpinned by real analytical rigour. Very soon, in the locally raised revenue. That is why we have proposed a next few weeks—we hope to do so by the end of this 2% adult social care precept, which will enable councils month—we will share the emerging results with the to raise a further £500 million for social care. That will sector, and we will go to full consultation in the spring. I help local authorities to meet rising demand and recognises will keep Opposition Front Benchers fully informed the vital role that social care plays in supporting the about the progress of that. It is hugely important that most vulnerable adults and children in our society. we deliver this cross-party to make sure that it works for I will touch on the fair funding review in a minute, all of the communities that we represent in this House. but it is worth saying that, as part of the initial consultation, A number of colleagues spoke about the importance we have developed a new formula for children and of delivering for rural communities. Again, we heard young people’s services that uses world-leading research from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and and up-to-date data from a strong evidence base for North Poole about the pressures on his areas. It is assessing relative needs and then distributing the funding important to note that we will maintain the rural services accordingly. delivery grant at its highest ever level of £81 million in As part of the injection of £14 billion into primary the coming year. It will be distributed using the same and secondary schools over the next three years, a methodology as last year, which distributes funding to package of £700 million was provided for supporting the top quartile of local authorities on the super-sparsity children with special educational needs and disabilities. indicator. One of the best ways to improve outcomes for children This will form part of the fair funding review, which is to remove the need for them to enter the care sector in will include factors such as rurality and sparsity, but the first place. That is why we have committed to a also the other geographical factors that affect the cost further year of the troubled families programme in of delivering services across the country, and it will take 2020-21. In addition to the resource injection in social account of them in a robust manner. In the December care through the settlement, the NHS’s contribution to 2018 consultation, we set out the initial proposed approach the better care fund—the purpose of which is to increase to the area cost adjustment, which will include the health and social care integration—will increase by adjustment for additional service costs associated with 371 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 372 sparsity, isolation or market size. For example, if an Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Mr Khalid authority has longer journey times from service points Davies-Jones, Alex Mahmood, Shabana to households, they will have to pay their staff for more De Cordova, Marsha Malhotra, Seema hours in order to deliver the equivalent level of service. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Maskell, Rachael That will be reflected in the review. Dodds, Anneliese Matheson, Christian Doughty, Stephen McCabe, Steve The hon. Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) raised Dowd, Peter McCarthy, Kerry the importance of tackling homelessness last week, and Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain she did so again today with passion and vigour. I have Duffield, Rosie McDonald, Andy met the Mayor of Newham to discuss funding, and I Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, rh John would be very happy to visit Newham with her and the Eagle, Maria McFadden, rh Mr Pat Mayor to look at this issue and talk about it in greater Edwards, Jonathan McGinn, Conor depth. Efford, Clive McGovern, Alison Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine A number of colleagues raised the importance of Elmore, Chris McMahon, Jim policing and the work we are doing to tackle this issue. Eshalomi, Florence Mearns, Ian This is a clear priority for this Government: 20,000 more Esterson, Bill Miliband, rh Edward police officers on the streets, with 6,000 in the coming Evans, Chris Mishra, Navendu year. It is also why we have launched the £25 million safer Farron, Tim Moran, Layla streets fund, which will support areas disproportionately Farry, Stephen Morden, Jessica affected by crimes such as burglary and theft to implement Fletcher, Colleen Morris, Grahame well-evidenced measures tackling security, street lighting Fovargue, Yvonne Murray, James and other issues that affect their communities. Foxcroft, Vicky Nichols, Charlotte This is a settlement that injects significant new resources Gardiner, Barry Norris, Alex into protecting the most vulnerable adults and children Gill, Preet Kaur Onwurah, Chi in our care. It maintains grant funding and increases Green, Kate Oppong-Asare, Abena core funding in line with inflation, and it does all of this Greenwood, Lilian Osamor, Kate while protecting council tax payers from excessive increases Greenwood, Margaret Osborne, Kate that they neither want nor often can afford. Griffith, Nia Owatemi, Taiwo Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Sarah (Proxy vote cast It is clear that everybody across this House wants to Haigh, Louise by Kate Osamor) see local government not just properly funded, but able Hamilton, Fabian Peacock, Stephanie to adapt, innovate and improve the services it provides Hardy, Emma Pennycook, Matthew for residents for generations to come. Through the Harman, rh Ms Harriet Perkins, Mr Toby reforms that we have outlined this afternoon, that is Harris, Carolyn Phillips, Jess exactly what we will deliver: a 4.4% real-terms increase Hayes, Helen Phillipson, Bridget across the sector; an extra £1 billion for social care; over Hendrick, Sir Mark Pollard, Luke £900 million for new homes bonus allocations; and the Hill, Mike Powell, Lucy highest ever rural services delivery grant, at £81 million. Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin I look forward to further discussing these issues when Hobhouse, Wera Rayner, Angela we meet in this place next week to debate the most Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Reed, Steve comprehensive and generous settlement for a decade. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Rees, Christina Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Hollern, Kate Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast original words stand part of the Question. Hopkins, Rachel by Bambos Charalambous) Howarth, rh Sir George Reeves, Rachel The House divided: Ayes 190, Noes 329. Huq, Dr Rupa Reynolds, Jonathan Division No. 31] [4 pm Jardine, Christine Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Jarvis, Dan Rimmer, Ms Marie AYES Johnson, Dame Diana Rodda, Matt Johnson, Kim Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Abbott, rh Ms Diane Byrne, Ian Jones, Darren Saville Roberts, rh Liz Abrahams, Debbie Cadbury, Ruth Jones, Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Ali, Tahir Campbell, rh Sir Alan Jones, rh Mr Kevan Siddiq, Tulip Amesbury, Mike Carden, Dan Jones, Ruth Slaughter, Andy Anderson, Fleur Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Antoniazzi, Tonia Chamberlain, Wendy Jones, Sarah Smith, Cat Ashworth, Jonathan Champion, Sarah Kane, Mike Smith, Nick Barker, Paula Charalambous, Bambos Keeley, Barbara Smyth, Karin Beckett, rh Margaret Clark, Feryal Kendall, Liz Sobel, Alex Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, Daisy Khan, Afzal Spellar, rh John Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, rh Yvette Kinnock, Stephen Streeting, Wes Blake, Olivia Corbyn, rh Jeremy Kyle, Peter Sultana, Zarah Blomfield, Paul Coyle, Neil Lake, Ben Tami, rh Mark Brabin, Tracy Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Lammy, rh Mr David Tarry, Sam Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben cast by Peter Kyle) Lavery, Ian Thomas, Gareth Brennan, Kevin Cruddas, Jon Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Thomas-Symonds, , Ms Lyn Cryer, John Lewis, Clive Timms, rh Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Cummins, Judith Lloyd, Tony Turner, Karl Bryant, Chris Cunningham, Alex Lucas, Caroline Twigg, Derek Buck, Ms Karen Daby, Janet Lynch, Holly Twist, Liz Burgon, Richard David, Wayne Madders, Justin Vaz, rh Valerie 373 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 374

Webbe, Claudia Wilson, Munira Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewis, rh Dr Julian West, Catherine Winter, Beth Gibb, rh Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Western, Matt Yasin, Mohammad Gibson, Peter Loder, Chris Whitehead, Dr Alan Zeichner, Daniel Gideon, Jo Logan, Mark Whitley, Mick Tellers for the Ayes: Glen, John Longhi, Marco Whittome, Nadia Thangam Debbonaire and Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Williams, Hywel Jeff Smith Gove, rh Michael by Lee Rowley) Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan NOES Gray, James Loughton, Tim Adams, Nigel Clarke, Theo Grayling, rh Chris Mackinlay, Craig Afolami, Bim Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Afriyie, Adam Clarkson, , rh Damian Maclean, Rachel Ahmad Khan, Imran Cleverly, rh James Griffiths, Kate Mak, Alan Aiken, Nickie Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grundy, James Malthouse, Kit Aldous, Peter Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Gullis, Jonathan Mangnall, Anthony Allan, Lucy Colburn, Elliot Halfon, rh Robert Mann, Scott Amess, Sir David Costa, Alberto Hall, Luke Marson, Julie Anderson, Lee Courts, Robert Hammond, Stephen May, rh Mrs Theresa Anderson, Stuart Coutinho, Claire Hancock, rh Matt Mayhew, Jerome Andrew, Stuart Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul Ansell, Caroline Crabb, rh Stephen Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Argar, Edward Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca McPartland, Stephen Harrison, Trudy McVey, rh Esther Atherton, Sarah Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Bacon, Mr Gareth Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Merriman, Huw Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin cast by ) Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Davies, Mims Baillie, Siobhan Higginbotham, Antony Milling, Amanda Baker, Duncan Davies, Philip Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Baker, Mr Steve Davis, rh Mr David Hoare, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Mohindra, Gagan Baron, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Damien Baynes, Simon Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Robbie Bell, Aaron Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam Mordaunt, rh Penny Benton, Scott Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Beresford, Sir Paul Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Howell, John Morris, , rh Jake Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Morrissey, Joy Bhatti, Saqib Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil Morton, Wendy Blackman, Bob Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Mullan, Dr Kieran Blunt, Crispin Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Mumby-Croft, Holly Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Jeremy Mundell, rh David Bottomley, Sir Peter Drax, Richard Hunt, Tom Murray, Mrs Sheryll Bowie, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick Javid, rh Sajid Neill, Sir Robert Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Nici, Lia Bradley, Ben Duguid, David Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline Bradley, rh Karen Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse Brady, Sir Graham Dunne, rh Philip Jenrick, rh Robert O’Brien, Neil Braverman, Suella Eastwood, Mark Johnson, Dr Caroline Offord, Dr Matthew Edwards, Ruth Brereton, Jack Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, rh Michael Johnston, David Patel, rh Priti Brine, Steve Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bristow, Paul (Proxy vote cast Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark by Leo Docherty) Eustice, George Jones, Fay Penning, rh Sir Mike Britcliffe, Sara Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Browne, Anthony Evennett, rh Sir David Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Bruce, Fiona Everitt, Ben Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Buchan, Felicity Fabricant, Michael Kearns, Alicia Pritchard, Mark (Proxy vote Buckland, rh Robert Farris, Laura Keegan, Gillian cast by Charles Walker) Burghart, Alex Fell, Simon Knight, rh Sir Greg Pursglove, Tom Butler, Rob Fletcher, Katherine Knight, Julian Quin, Jeremy Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Mark Kruger, Danny Quince, Will Carter, Andy Fletcher, Nick Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Randall, Tom Cartlidge, James Ford, Vicky Lamont, , rh John Cash, Sir William Foster, Kevin Largan, Robert Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Cates, Miriam Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Mrs Pauline Richards, Nicola Caulfield, Maria Frazer, Lucy Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Chalk, Alex Freeman, George Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Chope, Sir Christopher Freer, Mike Levy, Ian Robinson, Gavin Churchill, Jo Fuller, Richard Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Clarke, Mr Simon Fysh, Mr Marcus Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew 375 Local Government Finance5 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Government Finance 376

Ross, Douglas Tomlinson, Michael Resolved, Rowley, Lee Tracey, Craig That this House welcomes the Government’s provisional local Russell, Dean Trevelyan, Anne-Marie government finance settlement, which will deliver the biggest Rutley, David Trott, Laura year-on-year real terms increase in councils’ spending power for a Sambrook, Gary Truss, rh Elizabeth decade; recognises the pressures on adult and children’s social Saxby, Selaine Tugendhat, Tom care as well as critical local government services, and welcomes Selous, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh the additional £1.5 billion available for social care in 2020-21; Shannon, Jim Vickers, Martin notes that the Government has listened to calls for a simpler, Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Matt up-to-date, evidence-based funding formula and has committed Shelbrooke, rh Alec Villiers, rh Theresa to consult on all aspects of the formula review in spring 2020; Simmonds, David Wakeford, Christian furtherwelcomestheGovernment’sambitiontoempowercommunities Skidmore, rh Chris Walker, Sir Charles and level up local powers through a future Devolution White Smith, Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Paper; and welcomes the Government’s progress on this agenda Smith, Greg Wallis, Dr Jamie already with the £3.6bn Towns Fund and eight Devolution Deals Smith, Henry Warburton, David now agreed. Smith, rh Julian Warman, Matt Smith, Royston Watling, Giles Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): On a Solloway, Amanda Webb, Suzanne point of order,Madam Deputy Speaker. At oral questions Spencer, Dr Ben Whately, Helen earlier today, the Prime Minister assured me that the Spencer, rh Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather Government had responded to the tragic case of Errol Stafford, Alexander Whittaker, Craig Graham by creating a new independent serious case Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John panel. Last week, the Department for Work and Pensions Stevenson, Jane Wiggin, Bill admitted that, far from being independent, the serious Stevenson, John Wild, James case panel was composed entirely of DWP officials. I Stewart, Bob Williams, Craig Stewart, Iain Williamson, rh Gavin understand that this afternoon the Department has Stuart, Graham Wilson, rh Sammy indicated that the panel will now include some members Sturdy, Julian Wood, Mike independent of the Department. Madam Deputy Speaker, Sunak, rh Rishi Wragg, Mr William have you received any notice from DWP Ministers that , James Wright, rh Jeremy they intend to make a statement on these new arrangements? Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Young, Jacob Syms, Sir Robert Zahawi, Nadhim Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Thomas, Derek thank the hon. Lady for her point of order and for Timpson, Edward Tellers for the Noes: giving me notice of it. Obviously,the content of Ministers’ Tolhurst, Kelly Maggie Throup and replies is a matter for them, not the Chair, but I am sure Tomlinson, Justin Nigel Huddleston that if there was any inaccuracy in anything the Prime Minister said, he will want to make a correction at the Question accordingly negatived. earliest opportunity. I am also confident that those on Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), the Treasury Bench will have heard her concerns—I am That the proposed words be there added. looking at the Whip—and will ensure that her comments Question agreed to. about what was said at Prime Minister’s Question Time are fed back so that if anything needs to be corrected, it The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as can be done quickly. amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). 377 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 378

Transport Andy McDonald: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The Welsh Government are taking a serious issue more Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I seriously, and they are to be commended for their work. inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the What is more, transport is the most emitting sector of amendment. the UK economy. It is responsible for more than a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions, and that is excluding international shipping and aviation. It is also the worst- 4.18 pm performing sector when it comes to reducing carbon Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I beg to emissions, which are higher now than in 2010. Progress move, has been poor in comparison with that of other sectors: That this House acknowledges that the UK’s transport emissions transport emissions were just 2% lower in 2016-17 than have not substantially fallen since 1990 and have increased since 1990-1991, compared with 60% for energy supply and 2010; and calls on the Government to develop and implement a 30% for businesses more generally. plan to eliminate the substantial majority of transport emissions by 2030, to decarbonise the UK’s entire bus network, to invest in an electric vehicle charging network that can support the majority (East Hampshire) (Con): Would the of vehicles on the UK’s roads by 2030, to cut bus and rail fares, to hon. Gentleman care to comment on what happened to increase public transport patronage, to provide funding for cycling transport emissions under the Labour Government in and walking, including investment in cycleways and grants for the 10 years following 1997, before the financial crash? ebikes, to introduce a network of clean air zones to tackle illegal levels of air pollution, and to bring aviation emissions within the UK’s climate targets. Andy McDonald: We are dealing with 2020 and the risible record of this Government. I know that a number The fires blazing in Australia are a catastrophe for of Conservative Members think that the world started that nation and its people, but it is not the only country in 2020, but the Government have been in power since at risk from such ravages. The burning infernos are a 2010, and they should take that on board. reminder of the new landscape that the climate crisis is creating across the world. The challenge is no longer The facts that I have given compound the Government’s abstract but a very real and devastating reality. I am depressing lack of ambition. Their failure to reduce proud, therefore, of the Labour party’s pledge to put transport carbon emissions and act on the crisis is a tackling the climate crisis at the heart of our transport huge missed opportunity to lead the world in developing and wider economic policy.It is both right and necessary, and manufacturing low-carbon technologies. Yesterday’s not least because since 2010 the transport policies of announcement of a 2035 phase-out of the production Tory Governments have done so much to undermine of petrol and diesel cars highlights the poverty of vision sustainable transport. for the climate and for industry. Electric vehicles will be as cheap as diesel and petrol cars by the mid-2020s. It The Government have failed to provide leadership on makes no sense to go on selling polluting vehicles that climate change. Those are not my words, but those of will be more expensive to buy and run into the 2030s. In the former Conservative rail and environment Minister its alternative strategy, Labour has set out a clear pathway Claire O’Neill. She also said that the Government were to achieving significant reductions in climate emissions “miles off track” in the setting of a positive agenda for at the same time as reducing regional and social inequalities the COP26 United Nations summit in Glasgow, and and improving the quality of life. that “promises” of action were “not close to being met.” (Battersea) (Lab): Does my hon. The Prime Minister’s pledge yesterday to make the UK Friend agree that under Labour’s plans we would a world leader in the tackling of climate change is decarbonise our transport, but would also ensure that beyond risible. This is not year zero. The Tories have there was an exclusive network so that disabled people been in power for a decade, and some of us have not could have a good quality of life and could have access forgotten the last 10 years of broken promises and empty to our public transport network? pledges on transport. Here are a few. The “Road to Zero”transport decarbonisation strategy Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend has made a very had no money or political will behind it, so is barely good point. Access to public transport should be treated worth the paper it was written on. There have been vast as a right, so that disabled people can travel spontaneously cuts in bus funding and services; huge cuts in rail as other people can. Many of our policies say exactly electrification programmes; support for airport expansion; that,. and major road expansion programmes. Those actions are a matter of fact and public record. They are not the John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) rose— actions of a Government who are serious about tackling the climate crisis; they are the actions of a Government without a relevant transport policy. Andy McDonald: I will give way one more time, but then I really must crack on. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): Will my hon. Friend contrast that with the John Redwood: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. approach being taken by the Welsh Labour Government? Would he accept that the UK has done more than In my constituency, for example, they are supporting practically any other country in the world to cut its the building of a new station east of Cardiff, St Mellons carbon dioxide emissions since 1990, whereas China, Parkway, with funds working to ensure that more people for example, is greatly expanding its coal extraction and can have access to public transport—green public transport coal power? What is the Labour party’s message to —in the east of the city. China in the run-up to the conference? 379 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 380

Andy McDonald: My message is that our country is London. Electrifying 35,000 buses by 2030 would reduce about to miss its own targets for the fourth and fifth their emissions by 72% as well as boosting manufacturing. carbon targets, and that is an appalling record. That is However, progress has been painfully slow over the past on the Government’s own statistics, so we really need to decade, and I wonder whether the Secretary of State focus on getting our own house in order. might furnish us with any proposals in that regard. Successful bus networks are key to achieving a modal Similarly, we have seen rail fares rise by 40% since shift from private to public transport and reducing 2010. In contrast, fares in Germany were cut by 10% at carbon emissions. A fully loaded double decker bus the start of this year to encourage more people to travel could take up to 75 cars off the road. We are hearing by train in order to cut emissions. It is frankly absurd references now to buses from the Conservative Benches, that UK rail fares have risen so excessively while the inspired no doubt by the Prime Minister’s painting of cost of short-haul flights remains low, with taxes broadly cardboard buses, but there needs to be more than that. frozen. That is why we pledged in the election campaign Under this Government, bus funding has been slashed to reduce fares by 33% by using part of the revenue in real terms by £645 million a year, and more than brought in by vehicle excise duty. This financial offer to 3,000 routes have been cut or withdrawn. Fares have commuters would have encouraged the shift from car soared at more than two and a half times the rate of usage to public transport that will be essential in the wage increases, while bus patronage in England outside coming years if we are to be successful in decarbonising London has fallen by 10%. the transport sector. Labour has committed to extending the power to However, capital investment in our railways will also franchise bus services to all local authorities in England be required to reverse the electrification cancellations and to overturning the ban on new municipal companies. that we have seen under the Conservatives. Despite That would allow for the cross-subsidisation of services, the clear environmental and performance benefits of smart and integrated ticketing, and London-style price rail electrification, the Tories cancelled the promised caps. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon electrification on the midland main line, on the line Tyne Central () remarked the other day between Windermere and Oxenholme, on TransPennine that a £1.50 bus fare takes her four stops on the West and on parts of the Great Western route. Road in Newcastle. I endure the same thing: a £2 bus Rail freight is a low carbon transport choice, emitting ride from my home in Middlesbrough to the bus station 76% less carbon than the equivalent road journey, and a short distance away is truly ridiculous when people has massive potential to lower UK transport emissions, can cross this wonderful capital city very economically so I regret that the Government have done so little to indeed. encourage it. For example, the TransPennine upgrade has no new capacity for freight. Labour’s policy of bringing Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Will the railways into public ownership would allow a long-term my hon. Friend give way? strategic approach to investment, delivering a more consistent approach that would better support UK industry Andy McDonald: I will give way one more time, but and help to decarbonise our railways. then I must make progress. I welcome Eurostar’s announcement this week that Dr Huq: I want to give my hon. Friend a London full direct rail services from London to Amsterdam will example. We have the 70 and 94 buses in Acton and begin on 30 April, with direct services to Rotterdam Chiswick, and on Friday they became electric, despite beginning on 18 May. More rail links between the UK the massive cuts to the Transport for London support and Europe are vital to reducing carbon emissions from grant that this Government have placed on our London short-haul aviation, and I will work with EU colleagues Mayor. Many people in London are worried that our to promote better rail connectivity. capital will be punished for voting Labour. Does my Ahead of the Budget next month, I remind the Transport hon. Friend agree that we need more joined-up thinking Secretary and the Chancellor that we cannot road build and more funding if we are to decarbonise transport? our way out of the climate crisis. New roads quickly fill up with cars, and “predict and provide” is a 20th-century Andy McDonald: I agree entirely. It is remarkable that concept. Ministers claimed that the road investment London is the only city of any comparison that is strategy for motorways and major A roads between without a central Government grant. Some of the measures 2015 to 2020 would revolutionise the network. In fact, that we would be taking, were we in government, would one in three of the projects has been cancelled or have gone some way to addressing that. Madam Deputy delayed, and the strategy is in complete disarray. Road Speaker, I will not be taking any more interventions. I spending should focus on providing more capacity for am very much aware that a great number of people sustainable transport, such as provisions for bus priority want to speak in the debate, so if colleagues will bear and integrated transport schemes. We need to develop a with me, I will carry on. more holistic approach to transport funding that is We said that we would totally reverse the cuts made geographically rebalanced across the UK. to bus services since 2010, then invest the same amount Labour committed to repurposing vehicle excise duty again. That would allow for 3,000-plus route cuts to be to establish a sustainable transport fund. Such a fund reversed, and for the expansion of new services through could provide £550 million a year for walking and the redirection of funds currently being channelled into cycling routes, £1.4 billion a year to fund free bus travel road building. We could then provide free travel for the for under-25s when bus services are re-regulated, £1.3 billion under-25s in the areas that own or regulate their buses, a year to restore the 3,000 bus services lost and deliver in order to address generational inequalities, encourage an additional 3,000 on top, and £500 million a year to lifelong public transport use and help reverse the long-term fund local road improvements and maintenance. Most downward trend in bus patronage in England outside journeys start and end on local roads, which are also 381 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 382

[Andy McDonald] Aviation emissions are a particular issue: in the UK, they have more than doubled since 1990, while emissions used by cyclists and pedestrians, so fixing potholes and from the economy as a whole have fallen by around better maintaining those roads and pavements should 40%. The Government plan to build a third runway at be a priority. Heathrow. According to the Department for Transport’s Tackling road transport emissions requires an enormous projections for Heathrow expansion, the UK’s legally investment in electric vehicles to see a just transition of binding targets under the Climate Change Act 2008 will the UK’s fleet of road vehicles. be missed. The Government should rule out any expansion that is not compatible with our climate targets. Who are IanPaisley(NorthAntrim)(DUP):Willthehon.Member we expanding airports for? give way? Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Will the hon. Andy McDonald: I am aware that many people want Gentleman give way? to speak, so if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will Andy McDonald: I have already indicated that I will carry on. not give way because so many people want to speak. Labour set 2030 as the date for ending the sale of new Fifteen per cent. of the UK’s population accounts for diesel and petrol cars. The Government’s new target of 70% of all flights, and half the country does not fly at 2035 is not ambitious enough for our climate, our all in any given year. Ahead of a possible tax cut for the industries and our motorists. It is also deeply worrying aviation industry next month, Ministers should be thinking to hear that the Government may be planning to scrap more imaginatively, such as replacing air passenger the £3,500 electric car grant when it expires next month. duty with a fair and just levy that targets frequent flyers. Perhaps the Transport Secretary can confirm whether The Government’s advisory body, the Committee on that is the case when he comes to the Dispatch Box. Climate Change, has called for the introduction of a Electric vehicles are already cheaper over the lifetime frequent flyer levy. Such a move could reduce demand of a vehicle, and up-front costs are likely to fall sharply for flying without penalising the annual family holiday by the mid-2020s. It makes sense for the supporting in the sun, instead making it more expensive to fly out industry and for reducing emissions that motorists should for a weekend at the second home in Provence for the transition soonest. Last year, Labour announced plans umpteenth time that year. to invest £3.6 billion in a vast expansion of the UK’s electric vehicle charging network and to offer 2.5 million Damian Hinds: It is more about business. interest-free loans for the purchase of electric vehicles, Andy McDonald: No, it is not. saving buyers up to £5,000. Furthermore, our plans included the introduction of a targeted scrappage scheme Is the Secretary of State aware that it is more than a to replace cars over 10 years old powered by fossil fuels decade since the effectiveness of regulators in the transport with new electric cars. We would also have put 30,000 industry was seriously questioned or considered? electric cars on UK streets through publicly owned [Interruption.] I know he is not listening, but he really community car sharing clubs. In contrast, the Government should. have repeatedly slashed EV subsidies and have failed to Regulators could and should have a positive role in invest any of the electric vehicle charging infrastructure driving carbon reduction in the industries they oversee. fund announced in 2017. Not only is that preventing the Does the Secretary of State agree that the powers of the UK from making necessary emission reductions, but it Office of Rail and Road and the Civil Aviation Authority leaves our motor manufacturing industries lagging behind should be strengthened to ensure that the road, rail, bus foreign counterparts. and aviation industries meet their climate crisis obligations? In the midst of an air pollution crisis, active travel Have the Government issued any guidance to the transport remains massively underfunded. The Government are industry regulators in that regard? predicted to miss their own cycling targets, achieving Finally, the Department for Transport does not have just a third of the 800 million extra trips that they a carbon reduction budget or target. The Government hoped for by 2025, and much of the growth in cycling is should set a carbon budget consistent with the aspirations limited to London. Labour set out plans to boost of the Paris agreement and beyond. In addition, each of cycling and walking and to make England one of the the sectors—rail, road, aviation and maritime—should most cycling and walking friendly places in the world, have carbon reduction targets in line with that departmental making our towns and cities cleaner and greener, and budget, and departmental spending should be reallocated transforming the environment, travel opportunities and to achieve the changes required. quality of life right across the country. The emissions- Claire O’Neill is correct to say that the Prime Minister reducing plan would also have addressed the local air “doesn’t get it” on the climate crisis. The Transport pollution crisis and the epidemic of ill health caused by Secretary has an opportunity to show that he does get it sedentary lifestyles. This investment in walking and cycling by halting the colossal road-building programme and would, for the first time, have made active travel a his plans for airport expansion, and by boosting investment genuine option for the many, not just the brave. in active travel, public transport and electric vehicles. The plan included: doubling cycling for adults and Dealing with transport is critical to confronting the children; building 5,000 km of cycleways; creating safe climate crisis. We are compelled to take action by cycling and walking routes to 10,000 primary schools; decarbonising not only to respond to the existential delivering universal affordable access to bicycles and threat to our one and only planet but to embrace the grants for e-bike purchases; and providing training for green industrial revolution and, simultaneously,to address all primary school children and their parents, extending the gross and obscene deficits in social justice. We must training to secondary schools and making training available level up so that everyone across our nation has affordable, for all adults. accessible and sustainable transport. We must connect 383 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 384 our communities and businesses, and we must give people improve junctions, change light arrangements and so the means to get to work, to get to college, school or forth, and medium-term measures to put in bypasses university and to get to hospital, and to help address and additional capacity. That is a very green thing to social isolation. do, because then we stop people churning out emissions The moral, social and economic imperatives are urgent in traffic jams. and stark, and I urge this Government to take the bold and radical action that is necessary. The country, indeed : I agree with my right hon. Friend on theworld,iswatching.IcommendthismotiontotheHouse. the importance of stopping those pinch points, where traffic just idles, pumps out all this CO2 and creates 4.39 pm pollution. That clearly is not sensible, so we have a big programme in place; we are putting £28 billion into our The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): roads. We will shortly be announcing more developments I welcome this opportunity to debate transport and on our road investment strategy, RIS2, and getting rid climate change. Despite some of the less well-thought-out of more of those pinch points. It is also important to jibes across the Dispatch Box, we are all pretty much in get the traffic that runs on those roads to be greener and agreement on the need to address this issue; after all, we to get greener quicker, with electric and other forms of have all legislated to reach zero carbon by 2050. That lower carbon and zero carbon production. I will talk a may be where the agreement ends, but it is only right, in little more about that shortly, but I am clear that simply that spirit of co-operation, also to agree that this country saying that we will not build any roads anywhere will has made remarkable, world-beating progress towards increase pollution and the toxins in our atmosphere, not the targets in recent years, particularly in the past decade reduce them. or so. The targets have to be tough, and they have to be We have already heard mention from the Dispatch challenging. That will help to focus the minds not just Box today of all the solar installations, 99% of which of the consumer and business but of Government, and have been installed since 2010. We have seen a huge that is absolutely right. Targets also have to be viable increase in the amount of renewable energy, particularly and practical. That goes to the point made by my right from offshore wind—53% of the power now produced hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood). comes from wind, solar and nuclear. That means we are It will not be easy to meet these goals if we simply try to getting much more renewable in our energy. That is a do it by destroying industry along the way. That point is good thing and we ought to be celebrating it, but clearly easily forgotten, but if we do forget it, we will not get many greater challenges are coming down the line. That the miracle that we have had of a 42% reduction in the is why decarbonisation is so important, but also why we amount of CO2 at the same time as a 73% increase in should recognise that we have decarbonised faster than the size of the economy. any other G20 country; last year, we led by passing that legislation. Across the House, we clearly agree on reaching Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Does zero emissions by 2050 and making that legally binding, the Secretary of State agree that actually the best way to which is essential. We are consulting on bringing forward tackle congestion is to get people off the roads and on the date for ending the sale of fossil-fuel diesel and petrol to bicycles, walking, and indeed using public transport? cars earlier than 2040, which was previously highlighted. I want to come back to his point about electrification of When I hear us being lectured about the electrification the railways. It is good to hear that he is now committed of our railway lines, it is worth remembering that in to, and an advocate for, electrification. We are getting 13 years of power the Labour party electrified one mile electrification of the midland main line to Kettering of lines per year. We have done 10 times better, having and Corby. The only way to decarbonise an intensively electrified hundreds of miles. I was grateful to hear the used railway like that is to electrify it. Is he willing to hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) look at electrifying it all the way through to Sheffield welcoming the new line that I helped launch yesterday. and Nottingham? Indeed, I helped work on getting the treaty signed. He described it as London to Amsterdam, but in fact trains Grant Shapps: I can absolutely reassure the hon. were already running from London to Amsterdam and Lady that under this Government we are seeing, and this was about the journey the other way around; the will be seeing, a lot more electrification. I do take slight launch means that people no longer need to decant at issue with the idea that the only way to get to a decarbonised Brussels, which was a 50-minute process, to go through railway is to electrify it. There are other possibilities, passport control. From April, people will be able to including, in particular, hydrogen, which we are starting come straight back, without getting off. He is absolutely to experiment with on the railways right now—an excellent right to say that that is an enormous benefit in terms of plan going forward. On her point about roads, bicycles efficiency and saving carbon dioxide when travelling and other forms of transport need roads, so we still from Europe. have to have them built in this country. I simply do not The new line is the not the end: we are looking to believe that there is a way round that. develop further routes, including Frankfurt, and, in the summer, Lille, Lyon, Bordeaux as well as many others. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) rose— This is an excellent example of how, although we have Grant Shapps: I will make a little progress, if the hon. left the EU, we have most certainly not left Europe and Lady does not mind. we are able to strengthen our ties in a meaningful way. It is important to realise that we are very keen not John Redwood: Does my right hon. Friend agree that only to reduce CO2 but to grow the economy at the a lot of our public want us to bust congestion and get same time. The two things are not incompatible; in fact, people on the move, so that they can get to school and they go hand in hand. We can do this more successfully work more easily? That requires short-term measures to if we grow the economy, because then we can get in 385 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 386

[Grant Shapps] Jessica Morden: Electric vehicles need steel—crucially, electrical steel. Just before Christmas, Tata mothballed front of the technology. One of the measures in the the only maker of electrical steel in the UK. Does the Prime Minister’s announcement yesterday was to consult Secretary of State agree that the Government have to on ending petrol and diesel car sales in 2035 or earlier step in and help the steel industry at this difficult time if rather than 2040, with the aim of ensuring that the we want an end-to-end supply chain in this country? British car manufacturing sector gets the advantage of completely clean travel, which they can then exploit by Grant Shapps: That was worked in well, and there is selling it to the rest of the world. That is one reason why an important point to make. We want to ensure the we should be so ambitious to do this. The sector can supply chain not just of steel and electrical steel but of create jobs—millions of jobs. It is already employing batteries in a gigafactory. Last October, we announced very large numbers of people in this country. This that we are putting up to £1 billion into supporting a Government want to help society and the economy gigafactory in this country. People can also expect us to adapt towards the new decarbonised world. want to support the supply chain, because it is good business, rather than providing subsidy for the sake of I recognise—I have said this at the Dispatch Box as subsidy, to make this country a leading one in Europe. recently as last week—that transport contributes over a We sell one in five of the electric cars sold in Europe and quarter of the UK’s domestic greenhouse gases; it is a we build them here, and we want to expand that a lot big number.It has become the leading source of greenhouse further. gases, considering that energy, as described before, has become so much less polluting. That is why, as I say, we Several hon. Members rose— came out with the target to move forward with the end of petrol and diesel. That is faster, I should say, than Grant Shapps: I will make progress, as I know that any other European market. In a country that does not many hon. Members wish to speak. produce cars, it is easy to say, “You must only buy an Last year, we announced investment of £220 million electric car”, but we have a dozen different domestic car to make buses more efficient and green. I shall say more producers that we have to take with us on this—and we about that very shortly. Since 2010, we have provided will. That is why we are investing £1.5 billion over six over £240 million to replace and upgrade our bus fleet, years to make the UK the best place to own and to resulting in more than 7,000 cleaner buses on our roads. manufacture electric cars, and why we are delivering a That is on top of £576 million for local authorities to further £1 billion to transform the automotive sector. develop innovative plans for buses, and £288 million for Schemes like the Faraday battery challenge and the the clean air fund to support individual businesses Advanced Propulsion Centre are funding development affected by all those things. I agree with the hon. Member of the supply chain, and that can be massively important for Middlesbrough, who said that we had to move to to this transformation. green buses—he is absolutely right—and that is exactly what we are doing. Everybody should have the opportunity Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): I completely agree to get on a bus that is reliable, efficient and clean. with my right hon. Friend on getting electrification of our cars and support his energy in doing so. Our electric Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): I had a conversation cars obviously do need roads to drive on. May I therefore yesterday with some firefighters, and it came to light thank him for the contribution that he has made to that if lithium batteries caught fire they would need to making sure that my local ancient flyover is coming be put out with sand. Our firefighters are not equipped down next week? Can he confirm that there is funding with that on their fire engines, so will the Secretary of for pinch points, for instance to replace that junction, State respond to that? and for ensuring that a new,modern, all-singing, all-dancing Grant Shapps: That is not something that I have come option of electric vehicles, buses, bicycles and so on across, and I am happy to look into it with my team of remains available for the whole country? Ministers, because public safety measures need to be investigated properly. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, Grant Shapps: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to I will write to her with details. argue that the Army and Navy flyover should be removed now that it has been closed. We want to make sure, Several hon. Members rose— whatever happens, that very low carbon—zero carbon— alternatives are available for people commuting in that area. Grant Shapps: I have another few minutes, and I want I have said at the Dispatch Box that some of the to give other colleagues a chance to contribute, so I will speeches I have heard show that the point has been conclude by mentioning a few more things, particularly missed. We have more charging locations in this country promoting healthier forms of transport such as cycling than petrol stations. I am not talking about charging and walking. A number of principles will guide our future points in driveways, where people are fortunate enough mobility urban strategy. We are investing £2.5 billion in to park off-road. I am talking about publicly available the Transforming Cities fund, to help cities and regions charging locations. There are more of those than petrol throughout England tackle congestion with greener stations, with one of the largest charging networks in forms of transport, particularly cycling and walking. Europe. As a driver of electric cars, who has experienced There are brilliant examples in Manchester, for example, range anxiety once or twice, I am relieved that that with the Bee Network, and in Birmingham, where there network is growing all the time. An electric car is sold is a network to do the same things. We will be going every 15 minutes and the number of people registering further and faster on cycling and walking. for electric cars has more than doubled in the past year, We have briefly touched on rail and our enthusiasm so we have reached the point where this is starting to for it. It is worth mentioning the £48 billion being expand massively. provided just in this particular period—control period 6 387 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 388 of ’s expenditure. That is without Northern roundabout which, as he knows, is a pinch point that Powerhouse Rail and without whatever decisions we causes pollution and danger for motorists. He mentioned reach on high-speed rail. The amount of money going road investment strategy 2 earlier in his speech and said into rail is a record in this country. I know that many that it would be announced shortly; can he provide any colleagues were in Parliament yesterday when we discussed further detail as to when we can expect to see it? the £0.5 billion going into the Beeching reversal fund, reopening lines that were closed in those savage cuts in Grant Shapps: It will arrive before very long. I have the ’60s and ’70s. As I said before, only the Labour seen the problems at the Air Balloon roundabout with party could think that half a billion pounds is small very own eyes, along with my hon. Friend and other change. And that is just a down payment—that is where colleagues, and I am keen to see that pinch point we are starting, folks. Yesterday, we had a fantastic addressed. Although I cannot announce the RIS2 outcome, meeting with colleagues from all parties—I have not my hon. Friend will not have to wait long to find it out. heard any of them complain—who are interested in the I look forward to visiting the area again in the near reopening of their local Beeching lines, which were future. savagely cut, mostly under the Labour Governments of To sum up, we are well aware of the effort that is the 1970s. Some 5,000 miles of track and 2,300 stations required—it is a great national effort. This is not something were closed; now that we are opening them all up, all that will happen in one Department or in one corner of Labour Members say is that we should have done it the economy; it has to happen throughout the whole of sooner. You could not make it up. Government and the whole of society. I fully recognise We are absolutely to committed to the plan to get that transport needs to lead the way when it comes to railways open, and we also take a much more realistic departmental reductions in the amount of greenhouse view when it comes to aviation. Just last night I was gases and toxins in the atmosphere. That is why we are with representatives of the aviation sector, which has working on our transport decarbonisation plan, which itself signed a plan to get to zero carbon by 2050. The in itself will be world leading, both in its scale of challenge is straightforward enough with cars, because ambition and in what it will produce for this country. we already have the technology. It is possible with buses and it is easier with other forms of transport, but it is Several hon. Members rose— uniquely complex with aircraft, given their weight and the performance requirements that have until now required Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): aviation fuel. The aviation sector’s commitment to get Order. Colleagues will be able to see that a large number to zero carbon is one of the most serious challenges for of people want to speak in the debate, so after the SNP this country’s transport plan. I am impressed by the spokesperson there will be an immediate time limit of sector’s ideas and the Government will work closely six minutes. with it, through carbon offsetting— Andy McDonald: Ah! 4.59 pm Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Grant Shapps: That is just the start. We will work (SNP): I will start in a positive vein by welcoming the closely with the aviation sector through reduction schemes, Prime Minister’sannouncement yesterdayof an acceleration by working with international aviation and by producing in the phasing out of new petrol and diesel vehicles. Of fuels that do not emit carbon in the same way that fuels course, he still lags a good few years behind the Scottish do today.The Future Flight Challenge includes £300 million Government’s target of 2032, but it is progress none the for greener aviation, to make aviation electric. I was not less and we welcome it. going to repeat the point, but I will now that I have been challenged: we are working on programmes to produce The Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Michael electric and hybrid planes and to use biofuels and other Matheson, today set out Scotland’s national transport technologies to cut emissions from fuel. That is extremely strategy. It is an ambitious and bold strategy that places important. decarbonisation and our net zero target at the heart of all the Scottish Government do. It also places active Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old ) (Lab): travel where it should be—at the top of the transport The Secretary of State has not mentioned the tube as a hierarchy. The benefits to our transport system and the means of decarbonising our transport infrastructure. In environment are manifold, but the wider benefits are in 2015, the Prime Minister claimed that the Bakerloo line many ways greater still. Diseases of inactivity are among extension was firmly on track to open by 2030; where the biggest killers in western society. Placing walking at are the Government at on that now? Will the Secretary the centre of any transport strategy boosts life expectancy of State meet Members who represent the communities and allows our NHS to spend resources and time elsewhere. that that extension would benefit? This debate, therefore, is not just about the environmental benefits for all; it is also about the environment in which Grant Shapps: As the hon. Gentleman will know, that each of us lives and how we can improve it to give project is led by the Mayor of London and Transport everyone the best outcome possible for life. for London, but I meet and speak to them regularly and would be happy to chase up the project on his behalf, That requires a strategy—something that is missing because it is in all our interests to see Crossrail and the from the UK Government’s approach. There is no Victoria line completed. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely national transport strategy for England or the UK as a right to point that out. whole. There are investment strategies, inclusive strategies, strategic plans for the north of England, and infrastructure Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): I am grateful to the skills strategies. They are all important and part of the Secretary of State for coming down to Gloucestershire mix, but there is no overall plan to improve transport in during the election campaign to see the Air Balloon the round. My colleague at Holyrood deserves praise 389 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 390

[Gavin Newlands] around the country form part of a system-wide plan for a rail network with a bigger picture for the regional and for the work that he and Transport Scotland have done national level? Whatever people’s opinions of HS2, it is to embed in a national plan of action the principles of at least an attempt to think strategically about future fairness, environmental justice and sustainable growth transport needs. in tackling inequalities and transitioning to net zero. I know the Secretary of State will disagree with me, To achieve those net zero targets, we need a strong as he has done previously, on the £500 million being a lead from the state, with clear-headed policies, not just drop in the ocean, but that is the truth. The Borders in terms of our obligations to cut emissions and tackle railway, which was a strategic project aimed at massively climate change, but in order to develop our economy boosting connectivity and the economy of a part of the and society more generally. Gone are the days when world that is too often left to fend for itself with crumbs millions of us lived within a short walk of our workplaces from the table, and was one of the final victims of the and neighbourhood shops. We now need and expect to Beeching report in 1969, cost £294 million for 40 miles of be able to travel with the minimum of fuss and the single-line track over a distance of 31 miles. With consumer maximum of comfort, which is exactly how it should be prices index inflation factored in, that is £328 million. in a wealthy 21st-century society. By the time the consultants, the press officers, and the That sort of system cannot focus on one solution hi-vis and hard hats for visiting dignitaries and—dare I alone; we need a basket of policies that fit all our lives say—Secretaries of State have been paid for,the £500 million and take into account our varying geography and promised by the DFT will pay for about one and a half topography. We can look at what works and at what can Borders railways somewhere in England. That would be be done now and in the near future to accelerate 60 miles of track, added to a network of over 16,000 miles sustainability. One example, as both Front-Bench in England and Wales—an increase of 0.38%. representatives have said, is to improve our buses. In Scotland, nearly 400 million bus journeys are made Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) every year, which is four times the number of ScotRail (PC): The hon. Member is making an important point. passenger journeys. More than one quarter of all people The budget for HS2 is about £100 billion, and Lord use a bus at least once a week, and nearly one fifth of Berkeley’s dissenting report says that the cost-benefit our school students travel to school on a bus. Four ratio is 60p for every £1 spent, so the British Government thousand buses result in more than 1 million journeys are about to burn £40 billion. Would it not be better to every day, travelling the length and breadth of Scotland, chuck that £100 billion into the Beeching reversal fund, from Shetland to Stranraer. because that would do far more for connectivity than HS2? For far too long, however, the public bus system has Gavin Newlands: I certainly agree that the money that been overshadowed by rail. Barely a week goes by without has been promised thus far is insignificant in reality. I some breathless coverage—often merited, sometimes think Transport for the North put it best when it said not so much—of an incident on our railways. Meanwhile, that around £70 billion is required just to increase the slow decline of bus services and the drift downwards connectivity to the requisite level in the north of England, of patronage and coverage largely goes unreported and let alone the rest of the country. The best I can say is is not commented on. that £500 million is a good start. That is exactly why last September the Scottish Government’s programme for government announced a Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Will record half a billion pounds of investment in infrastructure my hon. Friend give way? designed to improve bus services by reducing and removing the impacts of congestion, giving more priority to Gavin Newlands: I will give way briefly, but I am buses, and fundamentally increasing buses’ modal share conscious of Madam Deputy Speaker’s urgings about and reducing our use of private cars. That modal share time. slipped below 10% for the first time in the most recent round of transport statistics, which is just one reason Alan Brown: I have just received a response to a why that £500 million represents a massively positive written question about that £500 million, but the breakthrough in transport priorities. Government have confirmed that it is not new money in Investing in the bus network is not just about reducing the Department’s spending. It is actually money that emissions and congestion or moving to decarbonisation; has clearly come from somewhere else. Does my hon. it is also about social justice. Put simply, the lower Friend agree that it is another Tory con trick, and that somebody’s income, the more likely they are to rely on the investment coming forward should actually be new? the bus. Social mobility is not just a figure of speech. Flexible transport services go hand in hand with ease of Gavin Newlands: I absolutely agree, but I am hardly access to employment and they improve labour market surprised by the response to my hon. Friend’s written options for employees. Supporting bus travel is a fully question. It is not unusual for this Government to double- progressive policy that shifts wealth and income to the count money and re-announce the same figures. poorest in society and empowers people to have a much I do welcome the new openings, if they occur. My wider choice of where and how they want to earn a concern is that they simply do not go far enough in living. creating an integrated network of the type that Beeching I welcome the Government’s announcement of extra was happy to destroy.In 20 years of devolution, successive funding to reinstate some of the slash-and-burn policies Scottish Governments—both SNP and Labour-led, to instituted by Beeching nearly 60 years ago, but I am be fair—have understood the importance of bold action concerned about the “reversing Beeching” programme. to reverse the cuts made in a previous era. Airdrie to How does a series of separate branch lines scattered Bathgate, Larkhall, the , Stirling to Alloa 391 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 392 and the extension of the line are all reinstatements Too often, transport policy appears to be a contradiction of Beeching closures. We have the biggest programme in terms. In the short time since taking up my position of electrification and decarbonisation of the rail network as the SNP’stransport spokesperson, I have been genuinely in 40 years, with all services between our two biggest surprised at the lack of joined-up thinking that pervades cities running under the wires, as well as Stirling, Alloa, so much of what is sketched out for the future. Putting Falkirk, Paisley Canal and Whifflet, with much more the zero-emission society at the heart of transport planning in the pipeline as part of the rolling programme of and wider Government policy means joining up some electrification. The result of all this—and much more—will of that thinking towards a common goal and a common be a carbon-free rail system that helps Scotland to strategy. That is exactly what the Scottish Government achieve net zero. I hope that the UK Transport Secretary have been doing and continue to do, and it is what the will visit the Cabinet Secretary for Transport in Cabinet Secretary for Finance will be doing tomorrow during his tenure to hear how it is done, and see the real when he unveils the Scottish budget. It is what the investment going into Scotland’s railways day in, day Cabinet Secretary for Transport did earlier this afternoon out. These are not magic fixes or changes beyond our at Holyrood, and I hope it is what the UK Transport economic capacity.They are realistic, achievable solutions Secretary will begin to do as he reflects on this debate in to the challenges that we all face. the weeks and months ahead. Many of our roads are at—or, in some cases, over— capacity, which brings increased congestion and the 5.11 pm resultant increased emissions. There are those who say Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I thank all we should stop building roads altogether. I say, tell that the colleagues who supported me—or told me they to the residents of Aberdeenshire, who have seen their did—in the election for the Transport Committee, which travel transformed by the western peripheral route, or it is a great privilege to chair. I have not done much for those crossing the Forth on the replacement crossing, diversity, because I think I am the first male to chair it. which has seen not one day of closure due to high There is a serious issue with diversity in the transport winds—a bridge built in the face of opposition from sector, and I recognise that I am not exactly waving the many who are now curiously quiet about their lack of flag for that. I also want to thank the hon. Member for support. Tell it to the residents of Dalry, who, thanks to Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), who chaired the newly opened bypass, which was completed seven the Committee previously with such rigour. She was an months ahead of schedule, have seen traffic and pollution incredibly popular Chair, and it is a delight to see her in their town plummet. back on the Committee. She has promised not to be a Targeted investments in our road network, combined backseat driver, but another formidable female politician with the massive expansion in electric charge points and once said the same thing in this place. I am happy to be projects such as the electric highway along the A9 are driven from the back. all part of the mix in reducing emissions. Private transport It is a delight to speak on such a wide-ranging motion must be available to as wide a cohort of society as tabled by the Opposition. I do not agree with many possible. That is why Scottish households can now access parts of it, but I welcome the fact that we are debating grant funding that will, on average, pay for 80% of the them, and none more so than the need to decarbonise cost of installing a home charge point—30% more than our transport sector. We have had great success in the rest of the UK. There are more public charging reducing emissions by 40% since the 1990s. Pretty much points per head in Scotland than anywhere else outside every sector except transport has reduced emissions London. We are rolling out support for e-bikes, social over the past few years. It has remained stubbornly landlords who want to develop zero-emissions infrastructure difficult to reduce transport’s footprint. Surface transport and car clubs. The low carbon transport loan means accounts for 25% of all greenhouse gas emissions, and that more households than ever are in a position to transport as a whole accounts for 33%. In fact, between make the switch now, rather than later. With used 2014 and 2016, emissions from transport went up, so it electric cars now becoming eligible, the choice available is clearly the sector that needs the most focus, and I is getting wider all the time. welcome the fact that it is getting that focus today. Scotland is doing well, but Norway is soaring ahead I want to talk about some of the exciting innovations in in electric car deployment. By the end of 2020, half of the transport sector that we need to harness and encourage all new cars sold there will be electric—the result of in order to meet our net zero carbon commitment. bold policies and a determination by Government to Ian Paisley: Is it not interesting that the Secretary of tackle a societal and environmental challenge. Those State is the only person in the debate so far to mention bold policies are only possible because Norway has the hydrogen, the true zero-emission product that can help resources and the power of an independent state to us to achieve the goals set out by the Government? make those changes. If the UK does not want to use the powers it has to make those changes, it should ensure Huw Merriman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his that Scotland does. intervention. In fact, I was just about to talk about Scotland has shown global leadership by being the hydrogen, so that is a brilliant segue. first country to include international aviation and shipping The Transport Committee visited the engineer who emissions in its statutory climate targets. Aviation is first retrofitted a conventional train with hydrogen undoubtedly the most difficult sector to decarbonise, technology. We talk about the need to electrify and although I welcome the industry’s recently announced move away from diesel, but 2% of the national grid is commitment to do so by 2050. The SNP has already taken up by electrified rail, and if only 40% of energy is committed to decarbonise flights within Scotland by coming from renewables, that means that 60% is still 2040 and aims to have the world’s first zero-emission unpleasant. We need to invest in hydrogen, and it is very aviation region, in partnership with Highlands and exciting that we have the engineer in this country who Islands Airports. will enable us to do just that. 393 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 394

Alex Sobel ( North West) (Lab/Co-op) rose— Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and he and I may be about to disagree, Huw Merriman: I will take one more intervention, as but when he was the Buses Minister, we had the Bus I am conscious that others wish to speak. Services Act 2017. I really felt it should be a case of franchising for all authorities that wanted it, followed Alex Sobel: I congratulate the hon. Member on his by partnerships and then followed by municipals in election. On hydrogen production for trains and transport situations where partnerships and franchises did not in general, we need to think about how it is produced. work. I know the view was to stop further municipals, ITM Power in Yorkshire produces its hydrogen using but if we now say to local authorities, “If developers electrolysis, which actually means it is a zero carbon aren’t building out, then you build council houses and fuel. Weneed to take this in the round, because sometimes compete with them”, why can we not do the same thing decarbonisation does not mean decarbonisation if the when the bus service disappears? fuel still needs carbon and fossil fuels for its manufacture. On the buses strategy, may we examine more closely whether deregulation is working? With train operators, Huw Merriman: The hon. Member is absolutely right. the trains are paid for by the passengers who use them, If we are to call it completely green technology, it needs so there is no subsidy as far as that is concerned, yet we to be as he describes. Perhaps we should have in mind a tell the train operators when the trains stop and how trip to Yorkshire. often. However, when it comes to buses, which receive a I want to talk about the development of batteries in £2 billion public sector subsidy, we do not impose the trains. On the Southern network, for example, there are same conditions, so bus services may disappear, or get still two diesel services, even though there is usually a rerouted so that they no longer pass the GP’s surgery. third rail, because part of it does not have the third rail The buses strategy, which I absolutely welcome, needs and the services therefore need diesel all the way through. to set out some teeth in terms of what bus service The idea with batteries is that we charge and then use providers provide to our constituents. I say that very them for the part where there is no third rail. As I have much looking at my new parliamentary party, with mentioned, that incredibly exciting technology will allow colleagues from parts of the north that we have not us to move away from diesel. represented before, where the bus is even more of an I want to touch on parts of the motion that involve a essential service than in other parts we have previously more wide-ranging set of issues. There is the desire to reached. I very much hope that we will have the power, cut rail and bus fares, and I absolutely agree that we on the Conservative Benches, to ensure that bus services should be looking to lessen increases in rail fares. It is are properly restored. I also ask why young people very frustrating that we still use RPI rather than CPI to cannot get to places of Saturday or part-time work calculate rail fare increases; in the past year, fares would because the bus service is too expensive or does not have gone up by 2.5% instead of 3.1%. The challenge is exist, yet we allow millionaire pensioners to receive free that a third of all the train operators’ costs go on bus travel. It is essential that we ask these very searching employing staff, and if the staff continue to be paid on questions. an RPI basis it will be very difficult to move that over. Wehave talked about aviation; it is going to be incredibly I am excited by the ideas on fare reform that have difficult to green, but I disagree with the Liberal Democrats’ been put forward mostly under the guise of the Williams amendment that we should not proceed with Heathrow. review. It is absolutely ludicrous that those travelling to We need to demonstrate that we can still build big. work for three days of the week, perhaps working from I do not have time to talk about motor vehicles, but home during the rest of the week, are still unable to get 70% of the footprint is motor vehicles, and a third of all a three-day-week ticket. That can make it too expensive journeys taken by e-scooters would have been by car. for people to commute, so I would welcome such a We must legalise e-scooters. reform. I would dearly love to see automatic rail compensation. 5.19 pm The train operators take the money they receive from Network Rail when there are delays, but two thirds Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) of passengers who experience a delay do not claim (Lab): This is the first time that I have spoken on compensation, so the rest is banked by the train operators. transport in this Parliament, but it is far from the first I would like them to have to ring-fence that money in a time that I have spoken on these issues over the past fund, and to invest in technology that allows us to tap decade in this House. Indeed, the fact that I shall repeat on and tap off the train, so that if the train is delayed by many of the points that I have previously raised with more than 15 or 30 minutes, we would get compensation other Ministers shows just how little progress there has into our bank account without even needing to know been in delivering a reliable, affordable and integrated that we had been delayed. We must get the train operators public transport system for people throughout the north- to deliver that technology,so that commuters and passengers east, including my constituents. feel that they are getting value for money, or at least We are a region with incredible potential, but our that they are getting compensated when they have not inadequate transport links hold us back. An expanded, had value for money. integrated network would address so many of the challenges I will not mention HS2, because I fear that will come we face, from the economy to the environment. It would up in many other debates, but I certainly envisage the unlock job opportunities by allowing people without a Committee looking at it. However, I do want to talk car to access areas they would have struggled to get to about buses. Three out of five of all public transport before. It would help ward off loneliness and isolation. journeys are undertaken by bus, yet it just does not And it would tackle the poor air quality that is present receive the attention it should. I am looking at my hon. in so many communities across our country. 395 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 396

Making sure that areas such as mine can benefit from bus patronage among adults has continued to fall a well-run, integrated system that puts passengers first substantially in recent years. These are the consequences should not be beyond us, but in my constituency it has of deregulation in the ’80s, which, as I have argued been decades since we were last served by any form of before, has been an unmitigated disaster for constituencies passenger rail service. That means that buses are the like mine. There is no reason why local bus services in only option for those wishing to use public transport, the north-east cannot operate on the basis of an integrated but those services are often unreliable and costly, and transport system with genuine smart ticketing that allows are too often run for the benefit of shareholders, not the people greater flexibility in travelling. taxpayer. In the last decade alone, several routes have Ministers should give us the powers we need to been cut or altered, often on spurious grounds, usually franchise bus services, so that local people have a greater connected to profit, with little warning for local people, say, and ensure that passengers and taxpayers are put leaving residents cut off from GPs, hospitals and schools. ahead of the interests of bus company shareholders. The demand for good public transport in the north-east Making such a change in legislation need not be difficult is there; we are the region that, outside London, has the if the political will exists, and it would provide a much lowest rate of car ownership in the country. We also quicker solution to tackling the inadequate public transport have great economic potential; we are the only UK network that we see throughout the north-east. region to consistently deliver a trade surplus and the If all this talk of so-called levelling up is to mean leading exporting region in the UK. anything, we need to see much more action and fewer For years now, we have heard great rhetoric about the platitudes from Ministers, and a clear demonstration Government’s commitment to the north, and we have that they will work with us—communities, businesses heard even more in recent months, but that has not been and politicians, right across the north-east—to unlock matched by action. For too long our region has suffered our potential and invest in our transport network. from a major imbalance in transport spending per head when compared with other English regions. 5.25 pm There are a number of credible and viable ways in Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): It which access to public transport could be opened up. is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South is home to a section Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson). of the Leamside line, a mothballed rail corridor running I want to use my time this afternoon to speak about a between Newcastle and Durham, passing through Fence project, the argument for which is often that it reduces Houses and Penshaw and then over the incredible Victoria overall carbon emissions from our transport network, viaduct. Nexus has identified the long-term strategic although that argument is debatable.The project, inevitably, benefits of reopening the Leamside line. It would add is HS2. capacity for both freight and passenger services operating The motion is really about the strategic outline of at local, regional and national level. That would relieve transport policy for the foreseeable future. I believe that pressure on the , which is already at high-speed rail can be a part of that. From an environmental capacity and is set to face greater demands in years to point of view, trains are better than planes and high- come. I invite the Minister to come and see the Leamside speed rail can provide genuine competition for short- line, to appreciate what could be achieved if we were haul flights. Taking city-to-city passenger traffic off the able to reopen that important line. I would also urge the conventional rail network and on to high-speed rail Secretary of State to look favourably on funding if any lines can leave more space for stopping passenger services business case is put before him, in the context of the to more destinations and can leave more train pathways strategic outline business case. for freight services that take freight off our roads. Those Another long-term prospect would be the extension are all, in my judgment, good arguments, but they are of the Tyne and Wear Metro to Doxford international arguments for a well-designed and well delivered high-speed business park in my constituency, where thousands of rail network. I am afraid that I do not believe that HS2 workers are based. There is a real desire among my qualifies for that description. constituents to make that a reality—a point I made If it is to be built, HS2 will be a significant part of when responding to the Government’s consultation on our strategic transport infrastructure, with many miles light rail. Ministers had hoped to respond to the of new track. I accept, of course, that building such consultation by the end of last year. I take the opportunity infrastructure in a small and crowded island is bound to ask the Minister when he expects the Government to be disruptive, but those responsible for building the response to be forthcoming. infrastructure have a responsibility to minimise the Reopening the Leamside line and extending the Metro disruption. People whose homes, businesses and farm are just two examples of how investment in rail and land will be demolished, diminished or devalued by light rail could benefit my constituency. Doubtless we HS2 have a right to be treated fairly and with decency. shall hear many similar cases made by Members across In the decade of this project’s development, and in my the House. I appreciate that what I have set out represents experience as a constituency Member of Parliament, longer-term projects that will take time and capital they too often have not been. Communication is invariably investment to deliver, but there is one straightforward poor, consideration for distress caused is lacking, and way that the Government could immediately address compensation is grudgingly agreed and painfully and the quality of public transport in my constituency—by slowly extracted. sorting out our failed bus network. I accept, of course, that taxpayers’ interests must be We have seen bus routes cut on a whim, with the protected, but the nation has an obligation to those who absolute minimum of notice, and with no requirement take a personal hit for national benefit. That obligation to release the data on profitability that leads to those falls to be discharged by HS2 Ltd in this project. There decisions.It is unsurprising, therefore, that in the north-east are individual HS2 Ltd employees who do their best to 397 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 398

[Jeremy Wright] I have waited until today, 5 February, to make my maiden speech for two reasons. Many Members in the be compassionate and responsive, but I have to say that Chamber may not be aware that today is Kashmir I find HS2 Ltd as a corporate entity to be both chronically Solidarity Day. Kashmir Solidarity Day is in observance inefficient and institutionally callous. If HS2 is to proceed, of support for and to express unity and solidarity with that must change. What makes it worse for so many of the people of Indian-administered Kashmir, and to pay those individually affected is that they do not accept the homage to the tens of thousands of Kashmiris who case for HS2 in the first place. Many more of our have been martyred in the conflict by Indian armed forces. constituents who are not directly affected by HS2, but On 5 August—exactly six months ago today—the are profoundly concerned about the environmental damage Bharatiya Janata Party-led Indian Government decided it will do and the price tag it has, feel the same. to strip the state of Jammu and Kashmir of autonomy A project of this scale will inevitably cost a great deal after seven decades, characterising it as the correction and its cost cannot be properly considered in isolation of a historical blunder. This act is illegal and the from its benefits, both direct and indirect, but the international community’ssilence on the matter is worrying. financial cost of HS2 is not just high but rising fast: In south Asia, the long drawn-out dispute over the state £32.7 billion by 2012; £55.7 billion by 2015; and at least of Jammu and Kashmir remains a hanging fireball £72 billion by last year, with few believing it will stop between two hostile nuclear neighbours, and Pakistan. there. What makes HS2 very high cost is its very high It has been bringing human misery in the form of wars speed and the expensive engineering required to achieve on the issue and it continues to threaten regional and it. It is also the requirement for very high speed that global peace. My role is not to take sides, such as to be removes the project’s ability to divert around sensitive pro-Pakistan or anti-India. I believe, as a Kashmiri, areas and reduce environmental damage. Very high that it is my duty to highlight the abuses and human speed used to be the primary argument for HS2, but rights violations to this House. significantly it is now capacity improvements that are Evenaftersevendecades,thepeopleof theformerprincely argued as justification for the project. Those capacity state of Jammu and Kashmir are waiting for their right improvements do not require the very high speeds to of self-determination, promised by the United Nations. which this project is currently working. Notwithstanding over 25 United Nations resolutions calling for a solution to the dispute, India remains Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I wholly agree with reluctanttogranttheKashmiristheirrightof self-determination. many of the arguments that my right hon. and learned The Scottish people were rightly afforded a referendum Friend is making. Does he agree that there are other to express their desire for independence. The UK had a schemes out there, such as reopening the Great Central referendum on remaining in or leaving the EU. Seven line, that would improve capacity without having to go decades later, the people of Kashmir are still waiting. down the environmentally damaging route of HS2? This is not, in my view, a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan—the international community needs to Jeremy Wright: I do. We should use the pause that the take responsibility. Secretary of State has sensibly ordered to develop a cheaper, less environmentally damaging high-speed rail More than 40% of my constituents come from the network—perhaps one that lays additional track along region of Kashmir, so it is important to them to see the existing transport corridors. With the money that we matter resolved, but that can happen only if the can save, we can invest in more of the transport projects international community, through the United Nations, that are mentioned in this debate while still investing in seeks a peaceful and lasting resolution. By abrogation, high-speed rail. To my mind, that would be a better the special status of Indian-administrated Jammu and strategic balance in transport policy. Kashmir was violated on 5 August last year. The Indian Government have audaciously defied the basic norms I recognise that going back to the drawing board on and principles underpinning the concepts of democracy high-speed rail will cause a delay to its coming into and human freedom. India has deprived the Kashmiris operation, but as my hon. Friend rightly says there are of the right to express themselves peacefully. Even alternatives that have already been partially developed. elderly women who marked a silent protest in Srinagar, Let us recall that only last year we were told that the capital of India-administered Kashmir, were not phase 1 of HS2 would, in any event, be delayed by at spared and have been detained. least two years and that phase 2 would be delayed by at least three years. High-speed rail will change our transport The Indian army and paramilitary forces operating future for generations to come. It is too important to get in Indian-held Kashmir have deliberately and methodically wrong, and we can do better than HS2. violated the fundamental norms of international human rights law,for which the Indian Government are responsible, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It despite their being a signatory to these laws. I demand is a great pleasure to call Tahir Ali to make his maiden an end to all elements of siege in the Kashmir valley speech. and the full restoration of telephony and internet and of the democratic and basic human rights of the besieged Kashmiris. I demand that they allow them and foreign 5.31 pm media to travel and report unhindered and commit to Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): I am truly providing a safe environment for human rights defenders honoured and privileged to be here representing the and organisations so that they can conduct their work people of my constituency of Birmingham, Hall Green. without fear. We have an international obligation to I am forever grateful to the constituents who have put support peace, equality and just treatment for all humans. their trust and confidence in me, with such a huge To quote Martin Luther King, mandate. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”. 399 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 400

It would be easy to make headline-grabbing jibes at own career is clearly a very impressive back story, and I Conservative Members, but I will rise above that in my think it is abundantly obvious to all of us that he will be maiden speech and talk about the issues that need to be a great asset to this place. addressed in Birmingham, Hall Green. The second Climate change is the defining challenge of our age. reason I have chosen to make my maiden speech today Although there is still so much to be done, we can take is that this is National Apprenticeship Week. In 1989, at some pride in the fact that this country has been the age of 17, I secured an engineering apprenticeship decarbonising faster than comparable countries in the with Royal Mail. Apprenticeships are an excellent way G20. Much the greatest part of that reduction so far of providing secure jobs, a regular income and an early has been our success on energy supply; transport is now start into employment, and are an alternative to the the sector with the most emissions, and we must therefore academic route. My apprenticeship provided me with prioritise it strongly. an opportunity to go to university; I was the first in my family to do so. Much has been done in recent years on I do not know where the figures in the Labour party’s apprenticeships, as is acknowledged, and much is being manifesto come from, although, to be fair, not knowing done by many councils across the country, but a lot where the figures come from is hardly a novel experience more could be done. The next step has to be Whitehall with today’s Labour party.I challenged the hon. Member giving control to the regions and local authorities. Many for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), the shadow have benefited from apprenticeships, but many more Secretary of State, to say what had happened to transport could benefit, and not just the young either; older people emissions under the Labour Government, but he declined can benefit too. to engage in that conversation. I can tell him that, in fact, they rose in the 10 years after Labour came to The climate emergency needs to be taken seriously power in 1997. At the time of the financial crash of and can be avoided if bold and ambitious steps are 2007-08 they did fall dramatically, but for all the wrong taken. Hundreds of properties have been flooded in reasons. Then, when we returned to government and Birmingham, Hall Green and remain at risk of flooding started to rebuild the economy and build up employment, from the River Cole. Urgent and adequate funding and they rose from their level in 2012-13, but not to anywhere a programme are required to prevent such disasters from near the level to which the Labour Government had happening again. taken them in 2007. Many schools in Birmingham, Hall Green do not It turns out that, although our success on energy is open for the full five days a week owing to inadequate something of a stand-out story,our experience of transport funding. Immediate steps need to be taken as a matter emissions being stubborn and difficult to reduce is of urgency so that all schools receive the adequate rather more common in other countries. The European funding they need to open for the full five days. Part-time Environment Agency has added together domestic schooling needs to end immediately. It is also appalling emissions and international aviation emissions, and has that in this, the fifth-richest country in the world, children found that between 1990 and 2017—the latest period are going to school hungry. The only meal some of for which it has figures—the change in transport emissions them have in the day is the one they have at school. It is in the UK was basically the same as that in France, and shameful that, while we enjoy the benefits of a subsidised comparable with what happened in Germany. Only canteen here in Parliament, many children in our Liechtenstein experienced substantial decreases in its constituencies remain hungry and are resorting to food transport emissions, and I am afraid that in the EU28 banks in record numbers. We ought to be ashamed. as a whole they rose by 28%. As long as I am in this House, I will continue to speak up for investment in services and the creation of Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I am grateful to opportunities for everyone in Birmingham, Hall Green. my right hon. Friend for giving way—he is very generous. I will continue to speak up and challenge the Government Does he agree that one way of reducing transport to invest in public services that will have a positive and emissions would be to site train stations in areas to lasting impact for my constituents. The people of Hall which people can walk rather than drive? As the Rail Green have placed their trust in me, and I pledge to Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry represent their interests and concerns to the best of my (Chris Heaton-Harris), is listening, may I now make a ability for as long as I remain in this House. pitch for a new station for ? Several hon. Members rose— Damian Hinds: My hon. Friend has made a good Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): point about walking. Along with cycling, it is an important Order. I am afraid that after the next speaker, the time part of the picture, as are buses, which so many Members limit will go down to five minutes, but it may have to be have mentioned today. I hope that the potential for “on reduced quite quickly after that. demand” buses will benefit constituencies such as mine. We have also talked about rail electrification. As for 5.40 pm heavy goods vehicles, there is a strong link with the Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a huge development of autonomous vehicles. I am pleased that pleasure and privilege to follow our new colleague the the UK continues to take a strong line internationally hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Tahir Ali), on aviation and shipping; it is important to remember who spoke with passion about some incredibly important that the targets for international aviation and shipping issues. I was particularly pleased to hear him talk about are set internationally. National Apprenticeship Week. So many of us have We have heard more this week—encouragingly, I think had opportunities to interact with it in Parliament this —about alternative jet fuel technologies.As was mentioned week, and will continue to do so when we are back in by both my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and our constituencies in a couple of days.The hon. Gentleman’s Battle (Huw Merriman) and the hon. Member for North 401 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 402

[Damian Hinds] cycling route. Unfortunately, Highways England has mismanaged the tunnel over several years and is now Antrim (Ian Paisley), hydrogen remains potentially a spending millions of pounds to pump out flood water very exciting technology for the future. However, the to prepare for the tunnel’s abandonment. There is single most important element in transport is roads, widespread local and national opposition to this, with and within that it is cars. In 2018, this country was the more than 6,000 people objecting, and Members from second largest European market for ultra low emission both sides of this House are supporting the campaign cars and the fourth largest for battery electric cars, and to save it. Put simply, the Government have a choice. a fifth of the battery electric cars sold in Europe were Either they can spend a significant amount of money to made here. We now have far more charging points—over abandon the tunnel, destroying an historical asset with 22,000—and a penetration of rapid charging points no public benefit, or they can invest for the future by relative to the extent of the road network that compares restoring the tunnel and transforming it into the centrepiece very favourably with the continent of Europe. Of course, of a new walking and cycling route between Bradford there are many Government subsidies and support and Halifax. I know that the Secretary of State and programmes that go with that. other Ministers in his Department are aware of the We clearly need to do more, however. We had a debate situation, and I ask them once again to commit to in Westminster Hall the other day in which I talked a lot visiting the tunnel and, more importantly, to working about how we can try to help consumers through questions with me and the local authority to get this situation about cost and help them to understand that it is resolved. important to look at the whole-life cost, particularly Turning to the broader question of transport in West now that so many people are getting their vehicle through Yorkshire and across the north, the Government’s own personal contract hire rather than buying it, even on Industrial Strategy Council said this week that finance. That comparison should be a lot easier. Clearly, “regional differences in UK productivity are at their highest level we need to carry on working on the infrastructure for over a century.” network and do more on roaming, interoperability and Clearly there is no silver bullet to solve this long-standing the visibility of charging points. We also need to ensure problem, but as I have said many times in this place, that new homes have charging facilities. In my discussion improving the north’s outdated transport system must with the Minister in Westminster Hall, I also mentioned be part of the solution. We can begin by getting rid of that we need to do more on last-mile deliveries, given the either/or choice between HS2 and Northern Powerhouse the huge growth in home shopping. Amazon lockers are Rail. We all know that this would not be a question if it great for Amazon, but that is a proprietary system. Can was being asked about London. The north needs and we start to use our post office network as a hub and deserves both projects. All we are asking for is fairness spoke facility? That would be a good way of reducing in funding and a rebalancing to ensure that the economy the need for last-mile journeys as well as bringing useful of the north is no longer held back by underinvestment. footfall and business into post offices. For my constituents to really benefit from these projects, I will finish now because I know that others want to the Government must commit to Bradford having a city speak. It is possible to recognise that there is a huge centre stop on Northern Powerhouse Rail. amount to do while also recognising the progress that However, we must go beyond those big-ticket infra- has been made. People need to know that we in this structure projects, and buses must be at the heart of place understand the gravity of the problem, but also this. Funding cuts, services being withdrawn and fare that we are committed, together,to doing what is necessary, increases over the past 10 years have let passengers and that we can and will do that. It would be so much down. They deserve reliable and affordable services; better if we could return to doing that on the basis of that is the only way we can build a sustainable and the cross-party consensus that we have had in the past. balanced economy. The Government can use all the soundbites in the world, but that will not solve regional Several hon. Members rose— inequalities. What my constituents and people across Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): the north want and need is fair funding to fix a creaking Order. In an attempt to get everybody in, the time limit transport system. The north is a diverse and complex will go down to four minutes after the next speaker. place, but the Government are apparently reluctant or unable to invest in its infrastructure at the same levels as 5.46 pm in other parts of the country, which has undoubtedly led to a twin-track economy. That needs to end, and it Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): Thank you, needs to end now. Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in the debate, and it is a pleasure to follow the right hon. 5.50 pm Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). I would Mrs (Basingstoke) (Con): My colleagues like to speak about two important transport issues. The on the Department for Transport Front Bench have one first is the campaign to save the Queensbury tunnel in of the most difficult problems in government, because my constituency. The second is the urgent need for more not only are they dealing with constituencies that have transport investment in the north and the fact that the different transport needs—I only have to compare the Government must deliver both HS2 and Northern needs of the constituents of my right hon. Friend the Powerhouse Rail. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) with The Queensbury tunnel is a 1.4 mile-long heritage those of mine in Basingstoke just a few miles away—and rail tunnel that lies beneath the village of Queensbury, with different rural and suburban transport challenges, which is situated between Bradford and Halifax. The but they also have to deal with decarbonisation and last train ran through it in 1956, but there is an exciting with eye-wateringly long lead times when trying make a local plan to transform the tunnel into a walking and meaningful difference to this country’s transport mix. 403 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 404

That is the Ministers’ challenge, and my right hon. Given how long it takes to train a driver and the almost Friend the Member for East Hampshire was right to say predatory poaching of Northern’s drivers by larger rail that we will tackle the problem only with a cross-party operators, there will not be a quick fix to the problem. approach. I hope everybody welcomes the Government In the summer I spent a day with Northern Rail on putting an extra £1 billion into the development of the Calder Valley line and at Leeds train station, as the next-generation electric vehicles, and their plan to bring best way to understand where the problems are is to forward the ban on the sale of petrol and diesel cars to spend time with people at the coalface. It was both 2035. We all see Government policies trickling down fascinating and terrifying to see just how fragmented into our constituencies. I certainly have in Basingstoke, and dysfunctional rail in the north is. My worry is that with the proliferation of charging points, particularly without investment in enhancing rail capacity across rapid charging points, and the renewal of the bus fleet, the north, both at the stations and on the tracks, we are with Stagecoach launching 32 new low-emission buses setting up any train operating company or model to fail. in Basingstoke just before Christmas. So there are signs that some of the policy changes are trickling down, but How can we both deliver a rail service that is fit for I will focus on two particular issues that we have not purpose and shrink carbon emissions from transport? I said a great deal about so far in this debate. The people thank Stephen Waring of the Halifax and District rail whom we represent would think we were living in a action group for his unwavering attention to detail on parallel universe if we did not talk about the importance all things rail-related. HADRAG launched its electric of improving road transport as well as public transport railway charter in May 2018. more generally. The “Northern Sparks”report by the North of England If we are to ease congestion on our roads, we have to Electrification Task Force was published in 2015, and be prepared to talk about this. Roadside emissions its purpose was to advise the Government on where massively contribute not only to overall climate change they should focus their investment. The report emissions, but to some of the health problems that recommended full electrification of the Calder Valley many of our constituents experience. I commend the line as its first priority. Sadly, there has been no progress British Lung Foundation and Breathe Easy Basingstoke to date. I fear that, for all the anguish about the state of for their work in raising awareness of the importance of the railways in my part of the world, the current proposals tackling roadside emissions. Basingstoke council has lack any sense of ambition. Even the most common-sense, run a “clear the air” campaign to encourage people to low-key improvements, which have been identified time cut their engines when in congestion, and Members should and again as essential, take far too long to deliver, if consider something similar for their own constituencies. they are delivered at all. We must also tackle congestion pinch points if we are to tackle roadside emissions. I put on the record my thanks Network Rail planned an upgrade scheme back in to Basingstoke’s local enterprise partnership for securing 2014 to provide two extra through platforms at Manchester around £50 million to improve pinch points around the Piccadilly and increased capacity at Road station. Brighton Hill roundabout and a whole host of other The scheme has been with three different Secretaries of roundabouts, which are causing so many problems in State over five years, and still no progress. Without it, terms of increasing pollution levels. we will continue to see delays and cancellations right across the region, not least on the Calder Valley line. The other thing I want to focus on is the importance of investing in south-east England, which Ministers At Leeds station, which has become another crippling would of course expect me to raise in this debate. The bottleneck, a single new platform is being built to truth is that transport expenditure in the south-east is increase capacity, but it is not expected to be finished 15% below the UK average. If we are to rebalance the for at least another year. We need to take a good look at economy, I urge Ministers to work closely with councils why even the most necessary works have taken so long in the south-east to ensure that the region moves from to deliver and at what can be done to speed up the receiving the lowest public sector expenditure per head process to ensure Network Rail projects are a reality for of population to receiving something nearer the average. passengers without the years of stalling, red tape and endless reviews we are currently seeing. 5.54 pm Finally, the failings of rail in the north are in no way Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): We know that asking the responsibility of frontline staff. The vast majority of people to get out of their vehicles and to adopt cleaner Northern Rail’s workforce are good people who are methods of transport like rail will be essential if we are doing their best in an incredibly challenging operating to significantly reduce our emissions in the necessary environment. I am pleased that the Secretary of State timeframe. We are asking people to make different was able to reassure them, when Northern was taken lifestyle choices, while knowing full well that rail in the into public ownership, that their jobs are safe and that north is a toxic combination of unreliable, uncomfortable improvements to staff facilities will be forthcoming. and expensive, but it is not a big ask. If we are to meet our targets for decarbonisation and People in my part of the world are desperate to use end our contribution to global emissions by 2050, adopting trains, as Halifax is almost equidistant between Leeds rail in a serious way will be the most obvious route to and Manchester,but we cannot accommodate the demand driving down transport emissions. By investing in rail or provide the service those passengers deserve. Passengers infrastructure, we can simultaneously unlock the potential on the Calder Valley line face overcrowding that is of the north. People want to use trains, so we will not uncomfortable at best and dangerous at worst. We are have an uphill struggle to change behaviour, as there is only just starting to see new trains replacing the Pacers, clearly already demand. It is up to this Government to but driver shortages crippled Northern’s ability to operate rise to the challenge and deliver a rail service that is those services, resulting in delayed and cancelled journeys. both good for passengers and good for the planet. 405 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 406

5.58 pm on communities, many in the midlands and the north see it as a great opportunity for them. So I suspect that, Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I think the Government as the project gets under way, as I hope it will, there will are doing a good job, as they have both reduced emissions be many arguments between colleagues about why the and kept the economy rolling. The key policy has to be railway should be going through their communities, not to create jobs and wealth while having a cleaner around them, because of the impact it will have in areas environment, so we need to be patted on the back, of the north. rather than criticised. We can still make progress, but things are going pretty well as they are. If we are going to be a country that represents the whole nation, if we are going to join up north and south, If we want to make quick progress, we have to invest if we are going to have redevelopment, we have to build in roads and pinch points to stop congestion. That is HS2. It is expensive. The payback time on most of these the best way to get a quick economic hit. If we want to major projects is probably 100 years, rather than 20 or make a big difference through public transport, it has 30 years. Most of the Victorians who developed the to be buses. railways went bust, but they have left us with a wonderful HS2 has been part of this debate, and I had some legacy. I think we should support this project. small role in it by chairing the High Speed Rail (London – West Midlands) Bill Select Committee. My right hon. 6.2 pm and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) made a good and well-balanced Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I thank the Labour speech. He and many other Members have had a high-speed Front-Bench team for moving this motion, and I welcome rail line landed on their constituencies, which creates a the unanimity across the Chamber, and the growing number of great difficulties, particularly because of the sense of urgency among the public, on taking tougher long timeframe of any such developments. The public action on the climate emergency. The question arises as think that schemes are produced by people in Whitehall, to whether the political rhetoric matches the reality in who know all the answers, the scheme is then in a filing terms of policy and action. cabinet and they just will not tell them things because So the two areas I wish to focus on briefly are rail and they do not want to tell them. The reality is that these aviation. The motion calls for a cut in rail fares while things often are designed, with the detail done, well the Government fix the mess that is the railways. Sorting down the line, by which time people have lost faith in out that mess has to start with the travesty of a “service”—if the organisation. we can even call it that—that is South Western Railway. In the 20 months that I was chairing the Committee, I SWR dominates my email inbox and my feed. came to the view that, on balance, HS2 is a correct thing Commuters in my constituency are reliant on SWR and to do. We have capacity constraints on the west coast they are at their wits’ end, as not a day goes by without main line and if we put a fast line in, which takes all the problems: lost income; lost working hours; lost time commuter traffic, it opens up all sorts of opportunities with loved ones; missed medical appointments; and just for freight and for various communities. If we do that, the general stress of not being able to get a rail service we have to see HS2 in terms not of one line, but of the that is not constantly delayed or cancelled. This is just enhancement of the whole rail network. That does not not acceptable. Those who live on the Shepperton line, mean we should not be responsive to people affected or which serves Hampton, are disproportionately affected, that we should not give them fair compensation. A lot because it is a branch service, which is often cut. On other more has to be done by HS2 Ltd to interact with members lines, such as the Teddington loop, there are regularly of the public and Members of Parliament affected, but skips of stations when trains are delayed. Residents are the scheme is a good one, which I still support. It will telling me that as a matter of course they are driving make a big difference over 20 to 30 years. The good part of their journey,which is not helping to cut emissions. thing about it is that it is a strategic decision, and it will All that is coupled with the 27-day strikes we saw in lead to considerable work and a considerable increase in December, where there was no proper compensation, capacity. and the financial situation the company finds itself in. As the Secretary of State has said, the situation is Most of the money spent on the scheme will be on unsustainable. I have written to him to ask for a meeting the stations and on redevelopment. The key point is to discuss this matter, and I hope he will get back to me, that we are spending about £2 billion on Euston—whether granting me and other colleagues a meeting to discuss that is a good or bad amount of money, the fact is that this important issue. it will have a big effect in Camden; we are spending money on Old Oak Common, where there is to be a We need to do much more to expand our railways if station; we will be spending money on international, we are to tempt people out of their cars and away from where there will be housing, offices and development; domestic flights, in order to reduce emissions. So I and we will be spending money rebuilding Birmingham particularly welcome the motion’s call to bring aviation Curzon Street, which creates all sorts of opportunities— emissions within the UK’s climate targets. It is therefore there will be offices, houses and all sorts of things in the somewhat surprising—no, negligent—that neither this centre of Birmingham and points north. So we should Opposition motion, nor anything we have heard from not look at the line purely in terms of the line; we those on the Government Benches today calls for the should look at it in terms of the opportunities as we cancellation of a third runway at Heathrow. build new stations all the way up it. That is why Stoke- I am disappointed that the amendment that I tabled on-Trent petitioned our Committee for the line to go with Liberal Democrat colleagues has not been selected through Stoke-on-Trent. People there see an opportunity for debate. Heathrow is the UK’s biggest single source of for their community. At the moment, the line is going carbon emissions, and a third runway would increase through Crewe, which also sees an opportunity.Although carbon emissions by up to 9 million tonnes, making people in the south worry about the line and the impact achievingnetzerosignificantlyharder.Indeed,theCommittee 407 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 408 on Climate Change said in 2016 that the construction of I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Sir Robert a third runway might break the Government’s own Syms) for his comments. If HS2 is given the go-ahead, it climate change laws. How can the Conservatives or is essential that it serves Stoke-on-Trent. To remove the Labour be serious about their commitment to tackle Handsacre link that facilitates services to Stafford, Stoke climate change unless they join my Liberal Democrat and Macclesfield at this point would be of huge detriment colleagues and me in calling very clearly for a third to what we have achieved locally. runway to be cancelled? HS2 should not just be about infrastructure and Heathrow expansion is projected to increase the number addressing issues of capacity. It should be about a of flights by 300,000 annually.My constituents and many step-change in those areas that have been left behind other people across south-west London already have historically. If there is anywhere where the Governments their lives blighted by noise and air pollution, and over agenda of levelling up resonates, it is Stoke-on-Trent. half a million people in the area surrounding Heathrow We are developing Stoke-on-Trent’s urban regeneration suffer noise levels above World Health Organisation and inward investment strategies, and have received standards. There is air pollution from surface transport, private investment on the assumption that HS2 will be as well as particulates from flights, which go well beyond completed in full. That investment has been made viable the airport boundary, despite the claims of Heathrow in the expectation that HS2 services will stop at Stoke, and, indeed, the Department for Transport. According which has an extremely low-value property market. Our to some studies, particulates travel up to 16 to 22 km communities suffer from some of the worst levels of downwind. multiple deprivation in the country. Opening up our The Prime Minister does not even have to keep his communities to new job prospects will help to improve promise of lying down in front of the bulldozers to stop life chances and living costs. a third runway. He has the power to cancel it at the We have a strong vision for our area that builds on stroke of a pen, and it is time that Labour came off the the economic resurgence we have seen under Conservative fence. Its spokesperson suggested that it might be shifting leadership, both nationally and locally. It is essential that its policy. Heathrow expansion is bad for climate, bad we now deliver for the people who put us into government. for our health and wellbeing, and— The benefits of the Handsacre link, in terms of additional passenger capacity and unlocked freight capacity on the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Order. , are clear. I urge the Government I call Jack Brereton. to back Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire by levelling-up 6.6 pm our connectivity and connecting us to HS2. We can be one of the leading contributors to global Britain if our Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): I recently potential is unleashed. raised the subject of public transport in north Staffordshire In conclusion, improving transport in Stoke-on-Trent in my debate in Westminster Hall because, as our local is critical for our economy and for opportunities for newspaper, The Sentinel, highlighted, its decline in the local people. Whether it is in respect of local bus or rail, Potteries has been faster than in England as a whole. or through HS2, we must benefit from the investment Bus use in north Staffordshire has declined by more needed to revolutionise local connectivity. Conservative than 10% in the past year alone. The decline in public leadership has produced a clear vision, through initiatives transport and the growth of congestion has seen us such as the Transforming Cities fund and superbus. I breach World Health Organisation limits for air quality. hope that we will receive the Department’s and the Our bus services are just not good enough. Government’s support in levelling-up Stoke-on-Trent In north Staffordshire, the journey time taken by a and ensuring that we can reach our true potential. bus can be over double that for a car, sometimes easily treble or worse due to the loss of direct cross-city routes. 6.10 pm Locally, Conservatives have plans to fix our poor public Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): Recent years transport. Key to the plans for improved public transport have seen a rise in emissions, largely caused by increased in north Staffordshire is the superbus proposal. High- traffic growth, which is encouraged by an ever-expanding frequency, high-priority bus services would operate on road building programme. Although the Government a network of cross-city routes, creating a bus-based are expanding roads, they are not concentrating on urban transport system. Travel costs would be attractive, safety, which is specifically what I want to focus on. capped at £3 for a day ticket. My constituent Jason Mercer was killed last summer With hard cash already promised from the Transforming on an all-lane running section of the M1 in South Cities fund, we are looking at little short of a revolution Yorkshire. All-lane running is often branded by Highways in seamless public transport for north Staffordshire. An England and civil servants as “smart motorways”. It is essential part of the Transforming Cities bid is improving not. All-lane running means using the hard shoulder as interconnectivity between rail and bus, including at a permanent live traffic lane without fitting the required Longton station in my constituency, which will undergo safety features. Mr Mercer and another motorist were major improvements if we get the full ask in the second forced to stop, following a minor collision. Without a round. I hope that we have the full support of Government. hard shoulder, they were left vulnerable and exposed in I am delighted by the new announcement of funding a live lane when one of their vehicles was struck by a to reopen stations and rail lines. I am campaigning to lorry,killing both men instantly.The lack of hard shoulder reopen Meir station in my constituency, and there is a also meant that the men eventually had to be airlifted definite feeling that, as for Stoke-on-Trent itself, the out because there was no other way for the emergency trajectory for rail locally is on the up. services to reach them. The economy in Stoke-on-Trent and wider north The same 16-mile stretch of the M1 that claimed Staffordshire is now one of the fastest growing in the Jason’s life has seen five fatalities in just 10 months. country, and needs comprehensive transport connectivity. Nationally,the number of fatalities on “smart motorways” 409 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 410

[Sarah Champion] quicker and more convenient for people to use public transport in the Solent area, and the proposals of continues to rise at an alarming rate. The Secretary of City Council, Hampshire County Council State recently announced that no further smart motorway and the Isle of Wight will significantly improve transport schemes would begin until the outcome of the Government links between Portsmouth, Fareham, Gosport, review of their safety.He has insisted that smart motorways and the Isle of Wight. must be at least as safe as traditional motorways or The new network will eventually serve 14 large should not proceed. That is most welcome, but what about development sites, consisting of about 17,000 new homes. the existing death traps? It will build on the success of the Eclipse route and I want to be extremely clear: all-lane running is provide a new rapid transport corridor, running from fundamentally flawed. It is profoundly unsafe. The existing Gosport to Fareham bus station, the Delme roundabout sections need to be reverted back to roads with a hard and Portchester, and on to Portsmouth and Waterlooville. shoulder, with immediate effect. If we keep all-lane It will include high-quality, frequent services; a single running open, more people will die, simply to increase and simple ticketing system; push notifications with motorway capacity on the cheap. That is not hyperbole. travel information for passengers; bus priority lanes; an Yesterday, The Times detailed a 2012 report by the enhanced park and ride system; and cleaner, greener Highways Agency—the precursor to Highways England— low-emission vehicles.I wholeheartedly support the scheme that stated that for the 10 miles of the M1 that borders and look forward to its continued progress. my constituency, the Highways Agency had decided not Secondly, on smart motorways, the M27 is the main to include the planned safety features, as that would expressway artery going through my constituency, increase the cost of the scheme by between £1 million connecting Portsmouth and , and several and £2 million—just under 2% of the total budget. junctions lie in Fareham. Thousands of people in Fareham There have been five deaths in the past 10 months on use that motorway daily. I understand that motorways that stretch of motorway, for a saving of £1 million to are dangerous—there is no doubt about that. Many £2 million. Each death, in near identical situations, was motorists, including me, are often nervous about driving because Highways England’s penny-pinching meant that on a motorway, but for the many thousands of people the safety features were never installed. in Fareham who use the M27, which is in the process of Highways England knew that rolling out all-lane being converted into a smart motorway, the prospect of running would result in deaths. That is not speculation: using it is becoming terrifying. Jim O’Sullivan, the chief executive of Highways England, In the past five years, 38 people have been killed on told the Transport Committee on 23 October 2019 that smart motorways, according to a recent “Panorama” that was the case—that by avoiding the safety features, programme, and there have been 1,485 near misses on he was likely to see deaths. Wehave seen deaths. Highways the M25 alone. Many local people in Fareham are England knew that the all-lane running motorways concerned about safety. The refuge areas on some smart would kill. Someone, somewhere will have signed off a motorways can be up to 1.5 miles apart, when they report that identified the risks and put a figure on the should be located every 600 metres. The obvious problem cost of saving lives—a cost that they decided it was not with that is that vehicles do not always break down at a worth spending the money on. I have supported Jason refuge area. The technology for smart motorways is not Mercer’swidow,Claire,in her campaign. She is now looking always responsive or effective. Many people in Fareham to sue Highways England for corporate manslaughter. are calling for the smart motorway upgrade on the M27 It is clear that Highways England knowingly failed in its to be scrapped and reversed. duty of care to motorists. I welcome the Government’s recent announcement of A key safety feature that Highways England decided a review of the smart motorway programme nationally. to scrimp on in South Yorkshire was refuges. Weoriginally I ask them seriously to question the safety measures in should have had six on our stretch of road, but we do place, and to consider whether a hard shoulder could be not have them. Stopping the roll-out will not save lives reintroduced on parts of the motorway. We need to on my stretch of road and in other constituencies. Will improve the robustness of the safety measures so that the Minister please, please revert all-lane running back public confidence can be restored. to where it was—roads with a hard shoulder—until the Finally, junction 10 has been a headache for Fareham money is found to put the safety features in place? If the for far too long. The junction urgently requires an Government cannot find the money, the roads should upgrade into an all-moves junction, so that the infrastructure be left as they are, with a hard shoulder. can enable the strategic development area of Welborne, a proposal for 6,000 new homes in my constituency of 6.14 pm Fareham. That will greatly improve economic activity Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): I start by and benefit the region. However, we face a situation commending the Government’s track record on transport. that could prove terminal for Welborne. Construction Spending £100 billion on infrastructure across the nation cannot take place without that junction, but we face a to improve our roads, railways and broadband is an £40 million funding gap. I urge the Government to unprecedented commitment to our national circulation. support me and others in Fareham to make Welborne I am glad that it is this Conservative Government who and junction 10 happen. are confidently leading the way. I want to raise three issues. First, I am incredibly 6.18 pm excited, thanks to the support from the Transforming Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Transport Cities fund, about the proposals for the new South East is the most carbon-emitting sector of the economy, with Hampshire rapid transit system in the Solent region, emissions higher now than they were in 2010. Under the where Fareham is located. We need to make it easier, Tories, road traffic growth has soared while support for 411 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 412 public transport has been stunted. We are now one of to cleaner air, and a reduction in harmful emissions the most car-dependent countries in the whole of Europe. must be an essential object of the Government’s infra- If we are serious about stopping the climate crisis and structure programme. creating a future fit for our children and grandchildren, It will come as no surprise to Ministers that I wish to we must do more to promote sustainable forms of talk about the A30. The single-carriageway A30 between transport and active travel. Cambourne and Penzance is the main route in and out My constituents in Ealing, Southall are heavily dependent of west Cornwall, and it no longer meets the demand, on public transport. I am strongly supportive of the irrespective of the mode of transport or the fuel used to local campaign to enable step-free access at Northfields, power vehicles—diesel, petrol or electric. Residents are Boston Manor and South Ealing stations.The Government rightly fed up with the congestion, regular accidents and Transport for London must do more to ensure that and incidents, and poor air quality. Will the Secretary of access can be improved for disabled passengers, which State and his team look again at the need to commit to a will help build confidence and safeguard independence. route appraisal for that section of road as part of RIS2? Although those working in the public transport sector Let me turn to the need to deliver a resilient, affordable have worked tirelessly to improve services—I must declare and accessible transport link between the Isles of Scilly an interest at this point, as I started my working life as a and Penzance. The current transport provision is the bus conductor for London Transport, so I am quite primary cause of concern for residents on Scilly, who familiar with this work—they are hamstrung by the rely on that link to provide the goods and food they Government and a privatised system that is failing need; the most affordable method of transport for them. Rail fares are up by over 40% since 2010, having passengers, including to and from medical appointments; risen twice as fast as wages. Over the same period, 3,000 and the main method of travel for tourism, which accounts bus routes across the country have been cut or withdrawn, for the lion’s share of the local economy. I refer the leading to soaring fares and crowded buses. That has Secretary of State and his team to current dialogue had a corrosive effect on our high streets and local between the local transport board and his Department communities. It has also reduced the independence of regarding the provision of cash to work up a plan to the groups that are particularly reliant on public transport, deliver a resilient, affordable and accessible transport including older people, women and those with a disability. link between Scilly and Penzance. The Conservative Government have demonstrably Finally, as more and more people switch to electric failed in their aim to create and maintain a fit-for-purpose cars, will the Minister meet me to consider the implications public transport system. Instead of paying lip service to of that? A vibrant tourism sector such as mine in west looking after our planet, the Government must reverse Cornwall relies on good transport networks, and public their cuts to help reduce our damaging dependency on transport is nowhere near to offering a viable alternative cars. The case for a substantial programme of investment for most tourists. Lots of people arrive for their holidays in public transport is clear. at roughly the same time and on the same days. The I was shocked to discover that just 2% of journeys in implication is that lots of electric vehicles will need to the UK are made by bicycle. A chronic lack of investment be charged. How we provide the charging capacity for in active travel has led to our becoming one of the hotels, resorts and camping and caravan sites has not worst-performing countries in Europe. Increasing been properly considered, but the challenge is fast investment and reshaping our cycling and walking strategies approaching. will help to improve air quality and arrest the growing In summary, consideration of the A30 in RIS2 will be public health crisis caused by an inactive lifestyle. Through welcome; support to deliver a resilient and affordable a programme of infrastructural investment, we will not transport link to Scilly is vital; and consideration must only reconnect and restore the fabric of our local be given to radically increasing charging capacity and communities but tackle the climate emergency—the infrastructure, to ensure that Cornwall remains a location gravest threat that humanity has ever faced. of choice to decarbonise, detox and unwind for hard- working families. 6.21 pm Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I listened carefully to 6.25 pm the shadow Secretary of State’s opening speech, and Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I welcome the was curious about his comments regarding investment £220 million announced recently by the Government in buses. Across Cornwall, we have seen the roll-out of a for bus investment. Mine is the only constituency in the brand new fleet of buses that are easy-access and have whole United Kingdom that has a British-owned bus- audio-visual information, as do many bus stops. In building company. That is an essential strategic measure addition, we have had £23.5 million to pilot an even by the Government, especially if they invest in bus greater public transport system on our roads, with building in Northern Ireland. It will affect every constituency reduced ticket fares and the greatest investment in rail in this country, whether in Aberdeen or Cornwall, links since the time of Brunel and the introduction of because it is a bus-building company owned by British the railway in Cornwall. entrepreneurs and invested in by British taxpayers. It is There is an appetite across Cornwall to decarbonise also the home of the hydrogen bus. The opportunity is transport, and the work under way between Cornish in our hands to make Northern Ireland and, indeed, the MPs, the Government and Cornwall Council to deliver UK the flagship for hydrogen power as a public transport that is ambitious and welcome, and will continue. We solution and a world leader in use of that zero-emissions will get more people out of their cars and on to public product and world-leading technology. transport. However, I see no conflict between the road Hydrogen power is much more advanced and cleaner improvements and reducing our carbon footprint. In than battery power. Batteries are a fantastic opportunity fact, reducing car congestion by improving roads contributes for cars and other vehicles, but we must remember that 413 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 414

[Ian Paisley] are taking over 70% of all our flights. The growth is in outbound leisure travel, with UK-based tourists in the if we buy a battery car, the entire battery component top income bands taking their holiday money away will need to be replaced in seven years’ time. Of the old from the UK three or more times a year, including from battery component, 50% gets recycled, and the other places such as those represented by the hon. Member 50% can only go to landfill, increasing a problem that for St Ives (Derek Thomas). That is money that many we must still address. of those in our beautiful places would be delighted to I welcome the £1 billion investment in a battery see spent here. gigafactory here in the United Kingdom. That is a great The aviation industry mentions magical solutions opportunity, but it pales into insignificance when we that will allow it to continue with a business-as-usual consider that China has monopolised world battery approach in a carbon-constrained world, but electric production. Indeed, one factory alone on the Chinese planes—particularly for short haul and long haul—will mainland employs 260,000 people. We cannot catch up not be online until 2050 at the absolute earliest. There is with world battery production, so our nation needs to no current industry development for these longer flights. lead the way with new technology and solutions such as For example, long-haul planes make up 70% of UK air hydrogen power, which was mentioned by the Secretary travel, yet there is no current development for electric of State—and I believe we can. planes going on in those areas. Jo Bamford, with his Ryse technology and the Bamford Yesterday, the chief executive of Heathrow airport Bus Company, and Hugo Spowers, with his Riversimple was on the radio talking about sustainable fuels for Rasa hydrogen car, have demonstrated that entrepreneurs aviation, but we know that a rise in biofuels will only are looking at ways of using hydrogen power as a new lead to more deforestation. This means more habitats solution beyond batteries. Batteries are fantastic for destroyed, more communities displaced and more carbon lightweight, short-range applications, but hydrogen offers emissions. Carbon offsetting by planting trees only a solution for distance and heavyweight vehicles such as removes, years from now, the carbon emitted today. It is buses, lorries, trains and ferries. Who knows what it not an alternative to cutting emissions in the first place. could offer in the future for aviation? Members today Obviously, the chief executive of Heathrow Airport have talked about low emissions for transport, but Ltd dearly wants a third runway, but even Department hydrogen is a zero-emissions solution, so let us grasp it. for Transport figures—from work done in the run-up to What plans do the Government have for hydrogen the vote in this place in 2018—show that the additional investment in the United Kingdom? What can they passengers using runway 3 will almost all be UK-based offer to investors in innovative new technologies that passengers taking leisure flights overseas. Expansion will turn waste into energy? will draw long-haul flights away from regional airports, I support the third runway at Heathrow, which is a thus impacting on their direct international connections. brilliant opportunity for investment and aviation. Some Furthermore, expanding Heathrow will mean an extra 51% of people who fly from Northern Ireland to England 6 million tonnes of CO2 emissions per year. are coming here to do business. We need a third runway I am glad that the Labour Front-Bench team led by because Heathrow has reached capacity. We have to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy remember that 95% of the global economy lies within McDonald) concluded in June 2018 that Heathrow reach of a single direct flight from Heathrow. Heathrow expansion is incompatible with our climate change has facilitated £118 billion of trade outside the EU in obligations and that Labour would not authorise Heathrow the last 12 months alone. It is a wonderful airport, and expansion or any other plans that jeopardise those it must— climate targets. The solution we should be promoting—the only carbon-saving solution for aviation that will make Munira Wilson: So we should destroy our planet? a difference before 2050, when electric planes come Ian Paisley: No, we are not destroying our planet; online—is to address the growth in demand. We need to don’t be silly. Accelerating investment in sustainable stop runway 3 at Heathrow, address the pricing disparity alternative fuels will only happen if we increase air between rail and flying, and implement a frequent flyer passenger travel. levy to replace air passenger duty. 6.29 pm Several hon. Members rose— Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): We Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. know full well the challenges of and the solutions to I am sorry, but I have to reduce the time limit to three climate change, and we all know just how worried our minutes. constituents are about this crisis. Only this morning, at Smallberry Green Primary School in Isleworth, I got 6.33 pm asked about climate change not just by a year 5 student, Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): but by a year 2 student. Some 78% of people in Ellesmere Port and Neston use Transport is the largest sector for emissions, and it is private motor transport to get to work, compared with the sector cutting emissions the least. Within transport, a national average of 63%. Perhaps in a constituency the sector with the fastest growing emissions is aviation. known for building cars that is not so much of a During the time that emissions from the economy as a surprise, but I think it is more a reflection of the poor whole have fallen by 40%, aviation emissions have more public transport links we have. It seems that for much of than doubled. Passenger numbers are set to increase by the last decade we have, every couple of months, faced a 70%, and that growth is not business travel. Over half of battle to save bus services that are already inadequate. the British population do not fly at all in any given year, Sometimes we persuade the bus company to keep the but the highest 15% of the UK population by income route and sometimes it will retain the service with a 415 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 416 slightly different route, but sometimes we lose the route expanding Heathrow airport, there are clear legitimate altogether. We then see people who rely on a bus to get concerns about the environmental impact and a need to to work, to care for their family or to access medical reform the aviation sector. appointments left high and dry, usually at just a few In Lewisham East, residents have been, and are, suffering weeks’ notice. from concentrated flight paths from City and Heathrow We need to take back control of the bus network. We airports. Rebecca, who represents many constituents, need a locally directed bus network designed to meet wrote to me to say: the needs of the local community, so that we are no “We strongly oppose City airport’s plan to increase flights by longer at the mercy of commercial considerations and 45% and to abolish the 24 hour no flying rule at the weekend.” so that people, no matter where they live, are never too She was woken at 5 am by a low-flying City airport flight. far away from a regular, reliable bus service. We can The Government must conduct a review of the impact spend billions of pounds on shaving 20 minutes off the of concentrated flight paths across Lewisham East and journey time from Crewe to London, but we still cannot south London that fully assesses inequalities. Our poorer guarantee the most basic bus service for many of our and more diverse areas have been subjected more to citizens. How are people supposed to be able to get overhead flights. work in certain places if they just cannot get there? Jessica, another constituent, says: How is one of the biggest employers in my constituency, “I have noticed a definite increase in large aircraft frequency Cheshire Oaks, expected to maximise the number of and consequent noise. Obviously, this concerns me for daily local young people it employs if they cannot get home disturbance and environmental reasons.” from work after six o’clock? So constituents are writing to me expressing their concerns This picture is repeated up and down the country; no and worries. wonder so many young people feel they have no choice Another constituent was diagnosed as suffering from but to leave their home town and venture into the city. It a low-frequency noise: is no wonder that we have a chronic loneliness and “It is an extremely depressing, debilitating and painful condition”, isolation problem when so many older people cannot she said to me. get anywhere because the bus service has been cut. Last summer, I held a public meeting on this issue. I look forward to hearing the Government’s decision The room was filled with residents who had come together on HS2 shortly.If it goes ahead, I have supreme confidence to discuss this concern. The fact that flight paths from that it will eventually be delivered over budget and late; City and Heathrow airports are currently overlapping I have considerably less confidence in whether it will means planes arriving at City airport must fly lower and bring any benefit to the north, and my constituency for longer. This has created corridors of noise that reach specifically. We have a real chance of delivering real unacceptable levels and increase emissions, which are benefits to the north through HS2 if the project is affecting my community. accompanied by a meaningful rail investment programme across the whole of the north, alongside a concerted Air waves, and sound and noise from flying aircraft effort to attract new businesses to the north; otherwise, need to be regulated. The proposals in City airport’s advertising the benefits of getting to London quicker draft masterplan to lift the restrictions on flights in the will probably encourage more businesses to locate in evening and at weekends to significantly increase the London than the other way around. number of flights are unacceptable and would mean that residents had no respite from excess noise, which would My constituency is a perfect example of why rail have a detrimental effect on their wellbeing. investment must be matched pound for pound in the north. If I want to travel the 30 miles from Ellesmere According to the World Health Organisation, noise is Port to Crewe by rail, I have to get on three separate the second largest environmental cause of health problems, trains and the journey will take around an hour and a just after the impact of air quality. My constituents half. It will probably end up taking longer than the cannot tolerate the present flight paths and certainly whole of the rest of the journey from Crewe to London. cannot tolerate increases to their flight paths caused by City airport or Heathrow. Finally, in the time I have left I want to say a few I call on the Government to take action to significantly words about the Mersey Gateway tolls. I make no reduce aviation emissions, to review the impact of apologies for raising this subject again because the same concentrated flights across Lewisham East and south basic unfairness of that system is still there. We have London, to conduct an equalities impact assessment, repeatedly heard from Ministers about how tolls being and to introduce regulation to prohibit sound waves from removed can improve an area’s economic performance, exceeding acceptable world health limits. such as in south Wales and Scotland, and there are no toll crossings in Northern Ireland and none in London 6.39 pm either. Some 90% of road crossings are toll-free except in Merseyside. That needs to end. Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak on this very important issue for residents of Putney, and Southfields. As 6.36 pm hon. Members have rightly pointed out, transport issues, Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): Aviation emissions social justice and climate action go hand in hand. My in the UK have more than doubled since 1990. The constituents know this only too well. I would like to Government plan to build a third runway at Heathrow outline some of the major transport issues they are airport and according to the Department for Transport facing, which are interlinked. projections for Heathrow expansion, the UK’s legally First, on Heathrow airport expansion, a third runway binding targets under the Climate Change Act 2008 will will stop us being able to reach our carbon emissions be missed. While there is an economic argument for reduction target. It will be a disaster for my constituents 417 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 418

[Fleur Anderson] First, 28 million passengers go through Manchester Airport—some might say that I have the most visited in Putney and, as other hon. Members have said, across constituency in the north of England—but we need a south-west London. Their quality of life and health will more sustainable aviation industry.HS2 will reduce journey be blighted: some 260,000 extra flights a year deliberately times from two hours, 24 minutes from my constituency routed over our green spaces, dumping carbon and to London to 59 minutes. That is an incredible amount, particulates on important habitats such as Putney Heath but it is not about the speed; it is about releasing as well as on residents; an increase in carbon dioxide capacity on the west coast main line. Tens of millions of emissions from air travel by 9 million tonnes a year; and freight trucks could be taken off the road and on to our 2.2 million people impacted by increases in aircraft noise. railways. Metrolink needs to be expanded through my For my constituents in Putney, those effects will be constituency. We need the bid that has gone in to the acutely felt. They will not have any daytime respite at all Government—for Metrolink to be able to go from the from aircraft noise on half of all days when planes are current stop at Manchester Airport to the new terminal, operating in a westerly direction. We will have planes and eventually to loop right around my constituency—to flying overhead almost continually for approximately succeed,. because we know that is a green way to travel. three days out of four. This will put an unbearable I have some sympathy for Northern Rail. The strain on the sleeping patterns and the health and Government did invest in the Ordsall Chord and connect wellbeing of my constituents. That is not to mention the Piccadilly railway station to Victoria railway station, inevitable increase in air pollution that a third runway but we are still waiting for a decision on platforms 15 and expansion will bring. Putney already suffers from and 16. There is a bottleneck across the north, and some of the worst air toxicity levels in London. This is whoever is operating rail in the north will still have to the last thing we need. In light of our legally binding deal with that bottleneck. climate change targets and the declaration of a climate I am pleased with Stagecoach in my constituency, at emergency,I request that the Minister reviews the national Sharston bus depot. It has committed to making every policy statement and cancels the expansion plans. bus going through my constituency electric in the next Secondly, South Western Railway is causing endless few years. We need the national infrastructure fund to misery for my constituents who rely on that service to help Mayor Burnham and Chris Boardman, our excellent commute and to get around. For two years, there have cycling and walking commissioner, with our network in been frequent delays, cancellations and dangerously Manchester—£43 billion needs to be spent on cities overcrowded services. I am glad the Transport Secretary outside London. has recognised the problem. I hope he will meet me Finally, air quality has been mentioned. Up to soon to talk about next steps. 1,200 people die annually in Greater Manchester because Delays on the District line have been terrible. The we have the poorest air quality in the country. That has modernisation project must go on, but the upgrade has to change by having a joined-up transport system with to be faster and we need a lift at East Putney station. lower emissions. Weneed to level up outside the south-east. The Alton estate in Roehampton is about to undergo a major regeneration, but that will work only if transport 6.45 pm plans come in behind it. Otherwise, people will not be Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is an honour to able to get to work and it will fail. Transport is not close today’s debate. There can be no doubt that tackling joining up with this regeneration, and I ask the Minister the climate change emergency is the most pressing to look at the situation. problem facing our country and, indeed, the wider Finally,on air pollution, we need far more infrastructure world. Today’s debate has reflected both the urgency for cycling. There just has not been enough in the whole and the overriding importance of that issue, and I want of . I commend the work of Little Ninja to highlight a series of contributions from colleagues and the Putney Society on this issue. Far more needs to across the House. be done. Some powerful speeches were made highlighting the In conclusion, my constituents will not accept any rising emissions from transport, particularly from road more half measures, half-hearted apologies or half-baked transport, and important points were made about the excuses on transport from either service providers or pressing need to end our addiction to car use, with calls the Government. for more investment in public transport, walking and cycling. I also point out the need to go further and reduce the need to drive in the first place by encouraging new 6.42 pm development that puts housing near places where people Mike Kane ( and Sale East) (Lab): When work and where public transport is easily accessible. His Excellency the President of China Xi Jinping visited The contribution by the hon. Member for Bexhill and my constituency in 2015, he spoke eloquently about Battle (Huw Merriman) was very thoughtful. My hon. 30 years of the twinning arrangement between Manchester Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland and Wuhan. I want to say on the record that the prayers South (Bridget Phillipson) rightly raised the issue of of Manchester are with the people of Wuhan as they try investment in the north of England, and I found the to contain the coronavirus. speech by the right hon. and learned Member for Pope Francis said, five years ago in his seminal encyclical Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) interesting “Laudato Si’”, that we should hear the cry of the earth in highlighting the importance of high-speed rail, even and the cry of the poor. Economic productivity goes if he has some issues with HS2. hand in hand with social justice, and I think that that is Other notable contributions were made by a range of the essence of the debate. I just want to touch, in the few speakers, including a number who referenced the need minutes I have, on how it impacts on my constituency. for much greater investment in rail. My hon. Friends 419 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 420 the Members for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) There have been many valuable contributions this and for Halifax (Holly Lynch), the hon. Members for afternoon. I cannot go through them all in the limited Poole (Sir Robert Syms) and for Twickenham (Munira time available, but I want to congratulate the hon. Member Wilson), and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, forBirmingham,HallGreen(TahirAli)onhismaidenspeech. Southall (Mr Sharma) all mentioned the importance of He talked powerfully about Kashmir and apprenticeships. rail investment across the country. There was also an I know more about one than the other, although I hitch- interesting speech by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent hiked through Kashmir 30 years ago and I recognise the South (Jack Brereton) calling for more investment in beauty of the place he described. I also want to highlight buses. Many other contributions were made. the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill Above all, I remind the House of the key points that and Battle (Huw Merriman), and to congratulate him were made the shadow Transport Secretary, my hon. on becoming Chair of the Transport Committee, and Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), the speech by the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah who called for urgent action by the Government. He Champion), who has been running a powerful campaign said rightly that the challenge is no longer abstract; it is on all-lane running on the M1, on which one of her now a very real and devastating reality. Those points constituents was killed. I thank her for the comments were all important, and I believe that the contributions she made the other day in the Westminster Hall debate, today reflected Members’deep concerns about the climate which the Secretary State and I are taking very seriously. emergency. Sincere views are held across the House My right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire about the enormous challenge that we now face. (Damian Hinds), the former Secretary of State for It is interesting that there is also an emerging consensus Education, spoke powerfully about the importance of in the House, among the public and among the business pursuing the electrification and decarbonisation agenda community about the scale of the issue and the need for in a way that goes with the grain of everyday travel to an urgent response. What is needed now, above all, is a work, families and the realities of getting around our plan for determined action. The Government have a country, particularly in the last mile. working majority, and it is clearly the duty of Ministers The hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) to address this challenge as a matter of urgency.However, raised the important issue of Heathrow.Whatever happens the question facing the House is whether the Government at Heathrow, we are committed to making sure that it have the political will to rise to the challenge, or whether does not damage our commitment to our climate change Ministers will continue to fail to acknowledge the scale obligations. In response to the hon. Member for Paisley of the task that we face. As my hon. Friend said, so far and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), the SNP the record is clear, and I am afraid that it is one of the spokesman, I should make it clear that the UK Government Government failing to step up to the challenge. want to support Scotland in its decarbonisation agenda. The coalition Government and the last two Conservative That is one reason why I am looking at hydrogen, which Administrations have presided over rising carbon dioxide is a particular strength in the Scottish economy. emissions from transport, due largely to increased pollution As Minister for the decarbonisation of transport, my from road vehicles. At the same time, rail fares have brief, which has been worked through with the Prime increased dramatically, hundreds of bus services have Minister and the Secretary of State, is to dramatically been cut, and walking and cycling growth is flatlining, accelerate the pace of progress on decarbonisation in with the Government missing their targets to increase transport,butIalsolookafterdisconnectionanddigitalisation. active travel. The two are connected. We must do more to tackle the The failure to tackle rising emissions at a time of disconnection of people and places left behind, the climate crisis is simply unacceptable. What is needed clusters held back, and the disconnection between agencies, now is a completely and utterly different approach, and not least those with responsibility for decarbonisation. it is clear from the progress being made by other countries, The digitalisation of our transport networks—particularly the Labour Mayors of our great cities and the Welsh the railways, but also the buses—can play a huge part in Government that investment in public transport and in decarbonising our transport system and making it easier walking and cycling works and delivers real and tangible for passengers to make that modal shift. change and benefits. Investing to cut carbon dioxide The Prime Minister yesterdayset out our groundbreaking emissions is not only desirable, but absolutely essential. commitment to be the first nation to ban diesel and hybrid cars after 2035, as recommended by the Committee I look forward to the Minister’s response to these on Climate Change. I am surprised we have not had points. I urge him to press his colleagues in the Treasury more of a response and welcome for that from Opposition for the necessary resources and investment and for real Members. They asked us to do it, and we have done it. incentives for behaviour change—both for drivers to scrap It is a key step in tackling transport emissions and polluting vehicles and to encourage far greater use of builds on our £1.5 billion investment in ultra low emission public transport and far more walking and cycling. vehicles and our £400 million investment in charging infrastructure announced since the new Prime Minister 6.49 pm and the Government took office. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (George We are looking across all modes of transport. On Freeman): It is a great pleasure to close this debate on aviation, we have already committed to producing an transport emissions and decarbonisation as the aviation strategy looking to 2050 and beyond. We have Government’s first ever Minister for the decarbonisation made it clear that Heathrow expansion must meet strict of transport. I want to begin, however, by saying that criteria on air quality and noise and will not be allowed while we have been in this debate there has been an to materially affect the Government’s ability to meet accident in Turkey. A passenger plane has skidded off a our climate change obligations. On shipping, I pay runway and there are reports of injuries. I know the tribute to my hon. Friend the Maritime Minister for whole House’s thoughts will be with those affected. launching our first clean maritime plan. The UK is one 421 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 422

[George Freeman] I know that time is short: I have no more than 40 seconds left. Let me end by saying this. A number of of the first countries to publish a domestic strategy to colleagues have spoken about cycling, and we have reduce shipping emissions—invisible to many but none committed £2.5 billion in this investment round and in the less hugely significant globally, particularly for this this Parliament to double it. We have invested a further maritime nation. This followed the UK’s crucial role in £200 million in buses, we have a £2 billion programme the agreement of the International Maritime Organisation’s for decarbonisation, and there is £400 million for electric first strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from vehicle charging and another £400 million for hydrogen. ships. On rail, we have committed to getting rid of all We are acting fast to repair decades of neglect. It is diesel trains on the rail network by 2040, and we are all very well for Opposition Members to laugh, but I do looking at electrification and at hydrogen trains in the not remember their being able to set out such a record peripheral areas not likely to be electrified. after 13 years in office. We have a grip on this issue. In We will, however, go much further and faster than view of the United Nations climate change conference even this. I am clear that we want to make Brexit the in Glasgow later this year, COP26, let me make very moment when we step up to our global responsibilities clear that this Government get it. We are also absolutely to lead in the decarbonisation of transport and the committed to making clear at that conference that we growth of a green economy. That is why I am working will make Brexit the moment at which we inspire a new with the Secretary of State on our first ever comprehensive generation, lead globally, and do that most Conservative transport decarbonisation plan, which Opposition Members thing of all, which is to leave our environment in a might be interested to hear about, and which we will better condition than the one in which we found it. publish shortly.It will set out a groundbreaking approach Question put. to all modes, explaining how road, rail, shipping and aviation can reach net zero. The House divided: Ayes 181, Noes 311. We will take a place-based approach, looking at the Division No. 32] [6.58 pm dirtiest motorway junctions, railway stations, ports and airports, and ensuring that everyone has a target that AYES can be met. We want to establish the first ever digital Abbott, rh Ms Diane Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. metric for emissions per passenger per kilometre, and, Abrahams, Debbie Doughty, Stephen using that metric, to drive “red, amber, green” digital Ali, Tahir Dowd, Peter mapping of emissions around the country. We are Amesbury, Mike Dromey, Jack significantly increasing our research and development Anderson, Fleur Eagle, Ms Angela science budget, particularly in relation to hydrogen, Antoniazzi, Tonia Eagle, Maria biofuels and electric planes, to ensure that we have the Ashworth, Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan technology that will help us in carbon budgets 5 and 6. Barker, Paula Efford, Clive I also want to highlight the power of data and digital, Beckett, rh Margaret Elliott, Julie which has traditionally been overlooked in this sector, Begum, Apsana Elmore, Chris Benn, rh Hilary Eshalomi, Florence but which I believe has a powerful role to play in Betts, Mr Clive Esterson, Bill harnessing our digital economy to ensure that we map Blake, Olivia Evans, Chris and measure properly and empower consumers, through Blomfield, Paul Farry, Stephen their phones and their local communities, to make the Brabin, Tracy Fletcher, Colleen choices that will contribute to the driving down of Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne emissions. I ask Members to imagine their Citymapper Brown, Ms Lyn Foxcroft, Vicky as a green carbon route-mapper, giving them points and Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gardiner, Barry allowing them to make informed choices about routes Bryant, Chris Gill, Preet Kaur and how they can reduce carbon emissions. We can lead Buck, Ms Karen Green, Kate the digitalisation, as well as the place-based choices, Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Lilian that will drive modal shift. Cadbury, Ruth Greenwood, Margaret I understand that behavioural change alone is not Campbell, rh Sir Alan Griffith, Nia Carden, Dan Gwynne, Andrew enough, which is why we are significantly increasing our Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haigh, Louise R&D and technology spending. I am launching the first Chamberlain, Wendy Hamilton, Fabian ever Department of Transport research strategy, and a Champion, Sarah Hardy, Emma list of priorities for the budget period is being prepared Charalambous, Bambos Harman, rh Ms Harriet at this moment. We shall be considering hydrogen, Clark, Feryal Harris, Carolyn biofuels and electric planes. Cooper, Daisy Hayes, Helen My aim in this decarb plan is to ensure that this Cooper, rh Yvette Hendrick, Sir Mark country leads in both the policies and the science and Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hill, Mike technology to drive the decarbonisation of transport. Coyle, Neil Hillier, Meg Our new future transport strategy sets out a comprehensive Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Hobhouse, Wera plan to do two key things. The first is to make the UK a cast by Peter Kyle) Hodgson, Mrs Sharon world leader in the testing, development and financing Cruddas, Jon Hollern, Kate Cummins, Judith Hopkins, Rachel of innovation in transport, because it is an industrial Cunningham, Alex Howarth, rh Sir George strategy for global UK leadership. Secondly, it is a Daby, Janet Huq, Dr Rupa strategy for local, healthy, place-based neighbourhood Davey, rh Sir Edward Jardine, Christine choice to make it easier for households, families, Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan communities and councils to drive the modal shift that Davies-Jones, Alex Johnson, Dame Diana we need. We believe that by doing both, we can get on Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Johnson, Kim track to hit carbon budgets 5 and 6. Dodds, Anneliese Jones, Darren 423 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Transport 424

Jones, Gerald Perkins, Mr Toby Brereton, Jack Freer, Mike Jones, rh Mr Kevan Phillips, Jess Brine, Steve Fuller, Richard Jones, Ruth Phillipson, Bridget Bristow, Paul (Proxy vote cast Fysh, Mr Marcus Jones, Sarah Pollard, Luke by Leo Docherty) Gale, rh Sir Roger Kane, Mike Powell, Lucy Britcliffe, Sara Gibb, rh Nick Keeley, Barbara Qureshi, Yasmin Browne, Anthony Gibson, Peter Kendall, Liz Reed, Steve Bruce, Fiona Gideon, Jo Khan, Afzal Rees, Christina Buchan, Felicity Glen, John Kinnock, Stephen Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Burghart, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Kyle, Peter by Bambos Charalambous) Butler, Rob Gove, rh Michael Lake, Ben Reeves, Rachel Cairns, rh Alun Graham, Richard Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Carter, Andy Grant, Mrs Helen Lavery, Ian Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Cartlidge, James Gray, James Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Rimmer, Ms Marie Cash, Sir William Grayling, rh Chris Lewis, Clive Rodda, Matt Cates, Miriam Green, Chris Lloyd, Tony Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Caulfield, Maria Green, rh Damian Lucas, Caroline Saville Roberts, rh Liz Chalk, Alex Griffiths, Kate Lynch, Holly Sharma, Mr Virendra Chope, Sir Christopher Grundy, James Madders, Justin Siddiq, Tulip Churchill, Jo Gullis, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana Slaughter, Andy Clark, rh Greg Halfon, rh Robert Malhotra, Seema Smith, Cat Clarke, Mr Simon Hall, Luke Maskell, Rachael Smith, Jeff Clarke, Theo Hammond, Stephen Matheson, Christian Smith, Nick Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hancock, rh Matt McCabe, Steve Smyth, Karin Clarkson, Chris Hands, rh Greg McCarthy, Kerry Sobel, Alex Cleverly, rh James Harper, rh Mr Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Spellar, rh John Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca McDonald, Andy Streeting, Wes Colburn, Elliot Harrison, Trudy McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sultana, Zarah Costa, Alberto Hart, rh Simon McGinn, Conor Tami, rh Mark Courts, Robert Hayes, rh Sir John McGovern, Alison Tarry, Sam Coutinho, Claire Heald, rh Sir Oliver McKinnell, Catherine Thomas-Symonds, Nick Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris McMahon, Jim Timms, rh Stephen Crabb, rh Stephen Henderson, Gordon Mearns, Ian Turner, Karl Crosbie, Virginia Henry, Darren Miliband, rh Edward Twigg, Derek Daly, James Higginbotham, Antony Mishra, Navendu Vaz, rh Valerie Davies, David T. C. Hinds, rh Damian Moran, Layla Webbe, Claudia Davies, Gareth Hoare, Simon Morden, Jessica West, Catherine Davies, Dr James Holden, Mr Richard Morris, Grahame Western, Matt Davies, Mims Hollinrake, Kevin Murray, James Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Nichols, Charlotte Whitley, Mick Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Adam Norris, Alex Whittome, Nadia Davison, Dehenna Holmes, Paul Onwurah, Chi Williams, Hywel Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Oppong-Asare, Abena Wilson, Munira Dines, Miss Sarah Howell, Paul Osamor, Kate Winter, Beth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hudson, Dr Neil Osborne, Kate Docherty, Leo Hughes, Eddie Yasin, Mohammad Owatemi, Taiwo Donelan, Michelle Hunt, Jane Zeichner, Daniel Owen, Sarah (Proxy vote cast Dorries, Ms Nadine Hunt, Tom by Kate Osamor) Tellers for the Ayes: Double, Steve Javid, rh Sajid Peacock, Stephanie Thangam Debbonaire and Dowden, rh Oliver Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Pennycook, Matthew Liz Twist Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Sir Bernard Drax, Richard Jenkinson, Mark NOES Drummond, Mrs Flick Johnson, Dr Caroline Duguid, David Johnson, Gareth Adams, Nigel Baker, Duncan Dunne, rh Philip Johnston, David Afolami, Bim Baker, Mr Steve Eastwood, Mark Jones, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett Edwards, Ruth Jones, rh Mr David Ahmad Khan, Imran Baron, Mr John Ellis, rh Michael Jones, Fay Aiken, Nickie Baynes, Simon Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, Mr Marcus Aldous, Peter Bell, Aaron Eustice, George Jupp, Simon Allan, Lucy Benton, Scott Evans, Dr Luke Kawczynski, Daniel Amess, Sir David Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, rh Sir David Kearns, Alicia Anderson, Lee Berry, rh Jake Fabricant, Michael Keegan, Gillian Anderson, Stuart Bhatti, Saqib Farris, Laura Knight, rh Sir Greg Andrew, Stuart Blackman, Bob Fell, Simon Knight, Julian Ansell, Caroline Blunt, Crispin Fletcher, Katherine Kruger, Danny Argar, Edward Bone, Mr Peter Fletcher, Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Atherton, Sarah Bottomley, Sir Peter Fletcher, Nick Lamont, John Bacon, Mr Gareth Bowie, Andrew Ford, Vicky Largan, Robert Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Ben Foster, Kevin Leadsom, rh Andrea Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Bradley, rh Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward cast by Leo Docherty) Brady, Sir Graham Frazer, Lucy Levy, Ian Baillie, Siobhan Braverman, Suella Freeman, George Lewer, Andrew 425 Transport 5 FEBRUARY 2020 426

Lewis, rh Brandon Rowley, Lee Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate Change Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Dean Loder, Chris Rutley, David Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Logan, Mark Sambrook, Gary do now adjourn.—(Iain Stewart.) Longhi, Marco Saxby, Selaine Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Seely, Bob 7.10 pm by Lee Rowley) Selous, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Shannon, Jim Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): Thank you, Lord, Mr Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Mr Speaker,for the opportunity to introduce this important Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, rh Alec debate tonight. Mackinlay, Craig Simmonds, David Our country’s ever-increasing energy requirements Mackrory, Cherilyn Skidmore, rh Chris and, more importantly, how those requirements are met Maclean, Rachel Smith, Chloe have long been the source of much debate under Mak, Alan Smith, Greg Governments of all political colours. Hitting the right Malthouse, Kit Smith, Henry Mangnall, Anthony Smith, rh Julian energy mix is the aim of all high-consumption countries Mann, Scott Smith, Royston around the world but, of course, it is easier said than Marson, Julie Solloway, Amanda done. May, rh Mrs Theresa Spencer, Dr Ben Never has the energy mix been more evident than in Mayhew, Jerome Spencer, rh Mark my constituency of Ynys Môn in north Wales. Wave Maynard, Paul Stafford, Alexander and solar energy specialists on Ynys Môn are leading McCartney, Jason Stephenson, Andrew the way in their respective fields, and some of the first McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, Jane offshore wind prototypes were tested on the island. McVey, rh Esther Stevenson, John However, this is only part of the all-important energy Menzies, Mark Stewart, Bob mix. Merriman, Huw Stewart, Iain Millar, Robin Stuart, Graham New nuclear power has the capability to meet rising Miller, rh Mrs Maria Sturdy, Julian demand, and this Conservative Government can be Milling, Amanda Sunak, rh Rishi incredibly proud that the UK is the first major economy Mills, Nigel Sunderland, James to pass a net zero emissions law with a carbon target of Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Sir Desmond net zero by 2050. Wylfa Newydd on Ynys Môn is Mohindra, Gagan Syms, Sir Robert critical to achieving that target for a number of reasons, Moore, Damien Thomas, Derek and I will touch on only a few of the most salient points Moore, Robbie Tolhurst, Kelly tonight. Morris, Anne Marie Tomlinson, Justin Morris, James Tomlinson, Michael First, there is rising demand for electricity, and the Morrissey, Joy Tracey, Craig Committee on Climate Change predicts that demand to Morton, Wendy Trevelyan, Anne-Marie double.The electricity we produce cannot be any electricity: Mullan, Dr Kieran Trott, Laura it must come from clean sources and, of course, it must Mumby-Croft, Holly Truss, rh Elizabeth be dependable. This report introduces the idea of firm Murray, Mrs Sheryll Vara, Mr Shailesh power—electricity generation that can be relied on to Nici, Lia Vickers, Martin supply demand at all times. We cannot ignore our Nokes, rh Caroline Vickers, Matt population’s ever-increasing requirement for electricity Norman, rh Jesse Villiers, rh Theresa as we decarbonise heat and transport. O’Brien, Neil Wakeford, Christian Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Sir Charles Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Paisley, Ian Walker, Mr Robin Parish, Neil Wallis, Dr Jamie hon. Lady on securing this debate on a vital subject and Patel, rh Priti Warburton, David on her wonderful introduction. Does she agree that, as Paterson, rh Mr Owen Warman, Matt with all things in life, a balance must be struck and that Pawsey, Mark Watling, Giles we must balance the provision of energy with a safe and Penrose, John Webb, Suzanne secure foundation for that provision? Does she also Philp, Chris Whately, Helen agree that nuclear power, which I support, is not the Pow, Rebecca Wheeler, Mrs Heather answer to all our needs but is currently necessary and Pritchard, Mark (Proxy vote Whittingdale, rh Mr John that, while we consider viable replacements for nuclear cast by Sir Charles Walker) Wiggin, Bill energy, we must take care of our nuclear plants to the Pursglove, Tom Wild, James highest safety standards? Quin, Jeremy Williams, Craig Quince, Will Williamson, rh Gavin Virginia Crosbie: This reactor technology is proven Randall, Tom Wood, Mike and has already been delivered four times. I agree with Redwood, rh John Wragg, Mr William Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob the hon. Gentleman that this technology must be proven Wright, rh Jeremy Richards, Nicola to be safe. Young, Jacob Richardson, Angela Secondly, nuclear power fits in with decarbonisation Zahawi, Nadhim Roberts, Rob both here and in the world at large. Nuclear energy has Robinson, Mary Tellers for the Noes: been powering UK homes since 1956, doing the heavy Rosindell, Andrew Nigel Huddleston and lifting of decarbonisation long before global warming Ross, Douglas Maggie Throup was near the political agenda. According to the “Digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics 2019” published Question accordingly negatived. by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, nuclear power provides over 45% of our domestically generated clean power. Over the next decade, 427 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 428 Change Change however, all but one of our current fleet is due to come than £61 million, so many of my constituents will be offline. If that capacity is not replaced with nuclear, our keenly awaiting the energy White Paper to see what emissions will go up. commitments are made to new nuclear projects that Countries like Germany have tried to decarbonise by could bring even greater benefits locally. Does she agree shutting down their nuclear power stations and opening that the Government should confirm the date on which open-cast lignite coal mines—the dirtiest form of coal this White Paper will be released, in order to give the possible—to keep the lights on when their wind and 3,500 people employed in the civil nuclear industry in solar fleet is not generating enough electricity. Their my constituency certainty over their futures? long-term solution is to pipe in gas from Russia, but that is still a polluting fossil fuel. The Nord Stream 2 Virginia Crosbie: I also thank all the people who project risks Germany becoming too dependent on gas work so hard at Sellafield on nuclear research. One of from Russia, at a time when the world’spolitical instabilities my asks of the Minister will indeed be about the timescale risk supply cut-off. This would not be an appropriate for our getting the White Paper. course of action for us to take. If this project does not go ahead, these talented If we were to exclude nuclear in the UK, we would people will inevitably look further afield for work. We need to install 478 GW of capacity, compared with cannot and must not allow north Wales to lose out. between just 70 GW and 80 GW in a balanced mix. The Even so, it is not the north alone that would lose out; Massachusetts Institute of Technology concluded in estimates put the wider benefit to Wales as a whole at 2018 that not only is it more difficult to reach net zero about £5.7 billion. Moreover, after the plant begins to without nuclear, but it is significantly more expensive. generate electricity, it is estimated that the contribution could be nearly £87 million in gross value added each Lastly, but most importantly, for my constituents year of its operation. As a scientist, I understand that of Ynys Môn the economic benefits are clear. As a these are not insignificant numbers. But even if we all Government, we promised our voters in areas such as agree that, as part of the energy mix, nuclear power is mine that they would not be forgotten any longer. the way forward, why Wylfa? Why Ynys Môn? It is (South Ribble) (Con): I wish to because Wylfa is hands down the best nuclear new build emphasise the point about economic benefits. An arc site in the UK. The local community on the island goes from Anglesey all the way up to Sellafield, with understand nuclear energy, having seen at first hand the South Ribble and Mr Speaker’s own patch of Chorley benefits of the original Magnox station, and there is a very much at the heart of it. With the number of large amount of support for the project locally. It is high-skilled, technical, brilliant engineers within that encouraging that despite many major political differences, arc, it is not unusual for someone to live in there is cross-party support for this project, with senior and work in Anglesey one day, at Sellafield the next and figures from both Labour and Plaid Cymru backing the at BAE Systems in Barrow the next. Does my hon. development. Friend agree that this proposal is economically vital for The Wylfa project is all but ready to progress into the north of Wales and the north-west of England? construction. It is based on proven reactor technology, which has been delivered four times—on time and on Virginia Crosbie: I thank my hon. Friend for making budget in Japan—as elements of the design are based that clear point about the nuclear arc and how this will on modular construction. The advanced boiling water benefit so many more people than just the people on reactor has already been put through the UK nuclear Ynys Môn; it will benefit people throughout Wales. regulator’s generic design assessment, a process which This nuclear arc is going to be very important. took nearly five years, and the development consent order is expecting a decision from my right hon. Friend Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady give the Secretary of State at the end of March this year. If way? the process had to be restarted with a different developer, Virginia Crosbie: If I may, I will continue. As I was we are looking at the very least at another four to five saying, my constituents deserve jobs, skilled employment years of delay. So much of the groundwork has been and investment to reduce dependency on the instability done. Why would we waste this opportunity? Why of seasonal tourism. Many of them tell me that they are would we waste more time? worried about the future of the Welsh language, as our Financing the project through a model such as the young people leave the island for cities across Wales and regulated asset base will ensure that the project is funded the north of England to gain meaningful employment. and started as soon as possible. I would like to know Once operational, Wylfa will create up to 850 permanent when the Government intend to respond to the consultation jobs, with 8,500 at the peak of construction, many of responses on adopting such a financing model for new which would be highly skilled roles and training nuclear. opportunities. We simply must turn the employment situation around on Anglesey and demonstrate that this Mike Hill: I share the hon. Member’s enthusiasm for Government are on the side of those who want to work advanced modular reactor and small modular reactor hard and get on in life. There would also be thousands provision, particularly from the perspective of Hartlepool more jobs in the supply chain beyond the island in and as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on north Wales. Wylfa would undoubtedly see a multi-billion- nuclear. The important point is the money that is generated pound investment into the region. for the local economy. In Hartlepool, it is roughly £10 million for the local economy and 500 jobs. Does Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): The she agree that companies such as EDF that run our hon. Lady is making some salient points about the nuclear power stations are investing wisely in green importance of nuclear energy. Contracts from Hinkley alternative provision, so nuclear is effectively a bridge to Point C to suppliers in my constituency are worth more that future? 429 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 430 Change Change Virginia Crosbie: Absolutely.This is a balanced approach I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised the to our energy. We need that so that we can achieve the important issue of nuclear energy, and I am eager to 2050 target. Have the Government considered any robust speak to her and the House this evening about the huge alternatives to the RAB financing model? Will the Minister number of benefits that the UK expects to receive as a say when the Government will publish the energy White result of the Government’s commitment to the sector. I Paper? am grateful to the Secretary of State for Work and In conclusion, this project is the only way forward to Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk ensure that we can meet our 2050 target on decarbonisation. Coastal (Dr Coffey), for her presence. She, too, takes an It renews the UK’s infrastructure, drives economic growth eager interest in nuclear power, not only because of her in the regions, boosts our manufacturing and construction constituency and her constituents’ needs, but for the sectors, and strengthens our links with key tier 1 non-EU wellbeing of the energy sector nationally. partners—a vital source of investment and collaboration New nuclear is likely to have a significant role to play now that we have left the European Union. Most in reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. importantly,this Government and our message are all about In September 2016, we gave the go-ahead to the first people—people who put their trust in this Government new nuclear power station in a generation, at Hinkley to deliver. Our Prime Minister promised Point C; and in June 2018 we committed £200 million “Colossal new investments in infrastructure, in science, using our through our landmark nuclear sector deal, which includes incredible technological advantages to make this country the millions of pounds for advanced nuclear technologies. cleanest, greenest on earth with the most far-reaching environmental The Government understand the important role that programme.” nuclear plays, and will continue to play, in our economy. People and their priorities were at the heart of our That role includes ensuring that local and national successful election to government. Now we must deliver benefits are realised, whether through increased employment across the UK, particularly to constituencies such as opportunities or improvements in skills. mine, Ynys Môn. Let us unite this country, let us spread opportunity to every corner of the UK, with superb As my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn reminded education, superb infrastructure, and technology. It is us, on 27 June 2019 the UK Government set a legally the people of Ynys Môn who will benefit most from binding target to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions Wylfa. Together we can realise the potential of Anglesey from across the whole UK economy by 2050. We were as the “Energy Island”and we can share in the opportunity the first major economy in the world—followed by and ambition to succeed in life that many neighbouring France and the rest of the EU—to legislate for net zero, areas have come to expect as a given. I therefore urge and we want to deliver our commitments in a way that the Government and the Minister not to forget about maximises the economic benefits of the transition to people when making the decision about the future of net zero. Between 1990 and 2017, we reduced emissions nuclear power and Wylfa Newydd specifically.The people by more than 40% while at the same time growing our of Ynys Môn and north Wales are looking to us to economy by more than two thirds, decarbonising our change their lives and give them hope and opportunity. economy faster than any other G20 country. The net In the words of the Prime Minister the day after the zero target requires us to build on that progress by election: transforming the whole of our economy and, of course, changing the culture in our society—our homes, our “Those people who voted for us want change. We cannot—must transport, our businesses and how we generate and use not—let them down.” energy. 7.23 pm I thank my hon. Friend for talking about the energy White Paper. It will form a key part of our journey to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, net zero. To answer her question about its publication Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): I date, I can inform her that the Secretary of State has congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys stated that she intends to publish the energy White Môn (Virginia Crosbie) not only on securing this evening’s Paper in the first quarter of this year. The White Paper debate, but on her fantastic recent election result. I will set out a clear, decisive strategy—a strategic approach thank colleagues who have made interventions—the to decarbonising energy, driving up clean growth hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), my hon. opportunities and demonstrating international leadership Friend the Member for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) in the build-up to COP26 at the end of the year. I am and the hon. Members for Warrington North (Charlotte sure we are all delighted that COP26 is to be hosted in Nichols) and for Hartlepool (Mike Hill). When the the great Scottish city of Glasgow. Cabinet went to Sunderland, the Prime Minister met an apprentice from Hartlepool. With regard to the point Net zero is not just good for the environment; it is made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble, good business. It is already abundantly clear, however, it is not just about apprentices; it is about skilled workers that a substantial increase in low-carbon generation will across the country, including in the north-west arc, be needed to reach net zero by 2050. Nuclear will have dating all the way back, Mr Speaker, to 1956. an important role to play in the UK’s future energy mix, providing firm low-carbon power and complementing Mr Speaker: Before I was born. variable renewable generation. Britain was the world’s first civil nuclear nation, and nuclear energy has powered Nadhim Zahawi: Quite right, Sir. It has been over homes and businesses in this country for more than three decades since Ynys Môn elected a Conservative 60 years. There are currently 15 nuclear reactors operating Member of Parliament and I look forward to working at eight sites throughout the UK, and they provide a with her over the coming years to ensure that this fifth of our electricity. In 2016, the Government gave Government deliver for the people of her constituency the go-ahead for the first new nuclear power station in a and across the entire region of north Wales. generation, at Hinkley Point C in Somerset. Once 431 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 432 Change Change operational, Hinkley will provide 3.2 GW of secure, fromExpressReinforcementsinNeathandlargecomponents low-carbon electricity for around 60 years, meeting an from Vessco Engineering in Bridgend. I hope those estimated 7% of the UK’s current electricity requirements. examples go some way to showing that this Government To put that another way, it will power nearly 6 million recognise and value the highly skilled nuclear workforce British homes—twice as many homes as there are in and established supply chain that Wales offers. London. I understand, however, that talking about successes I recently had the pleasure of visiting the Hinkley in Somerset does not diminish the disappointment that site, and it was incredible to see the sheer scale of the north Wales felt upon hearing about the suspension of endeavour that is being undertaken. There has been Wylfa Newydd nuclear power station. I reassure my significant progress at the site; in December, the developer hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn that we worked announced that all key milestones for 2019 had been extremely hard during negotiations to find a deal that achieved. Those included the successful delivery of J-zero was right for everyone,with Government ready to contribute for the first reactor, which marked the point at which significant investment. the foundations for unit 1 were complete and the above- We were clear from the outset that any deal that was ground work could commence. They also included the made would represent value for money, and be the right first big lift for Big Carl—who I met—the world’s one for taxpayers and consumers. Ultimately, we were largest land-based crane, which towers 250 metres over unable to reach such a deal and Hitachi took the the site. In one single lift, it can lift the equivalent commercial decision to suspend the project. However, weight of 5,000 shire horses, or of two A380s. It is a the Wylfa site remains a potential location for new remarkable piece of engineering. On 18 December,engineers nuclear development, and Hitachi has stated that it is at Hinkley worked through the night to lift a 170 tonne keen to discuss future options for the site with us, based part of the reactor’s steel containment liner into place, on alternative funding models. and it was fantastic to see the results at first hand. The Government are committed to looking at alternative During its construction and operation, Hinkley Point C funding models that could improve the value for money will provide the local region, as well as the entirety of and reduce the cost of capital of new nuclear projects. the UK, with economic benefits. In July 2018, the As my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn correctly Government published “Hinkley Point C: wider benefits noted, we recently consulted on a regulated asset base realisation plan”. The plan, produced with support funding model as a potential new option that could from EDF Energy, sets out how the wider benefits of attract private sector capital at a lower cost to consumers. the project will be delivered. For example, Hinkley The consultation closed on 14 October 2019, and we are Point C is expected to provide more than 25,000 new currently considering the feedback to inform the best employment opportunities and up to 64% of the value of approach to the financing of future nuclear projects. construction contracts to UK-registered companies. Ynys Môn will always be the energy island, and this Jim Shannon: During the previous Parliament, I met Government are proud of the expertise and skills that some of the people involved in the project. They told north Wales brings to the UK’s civil nuclear sector. In me that all regions of the United Kingdom of Great September 2019, we published the Government response Britain and Northern Ireland would benefit from those to the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report on the suspension jobs. Can the Minister confirm that Northern Ireland of work on the Wylfa nuclear power station. Wewelcomed will gain from the construction of the project? the report, and our response reiterated our recognition of Wales’s world-leading capability across the sector. I Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for hope that we can continue to build on the great nuclear that question. I am happy to write back to him on how history that exists in north Wales. much of the benefit has gone to businesses in Northern In June 2018 we launched our landmark nuclear Ireland. sector deal in Trawsfynydd. As my hon. Friend is aware, A total of almost £4 billion in today’s money will go the nuclear sector deal comprises a package of measures into the regional economy over the lifetime of the to support the sector as we develop low-carbon nuclear project, composed of about £1.5 billion during construction power and continue to clean up our nuclear legacy. and about £2.4 billion during operations. Worth £200 million, the deal is about Government and industry working in partnership to achieve significant Katherine Fletcher: Does the Minister agree that we cost reductions across the nuclear sector, and to ensure should not only seek to replicate established technologies, that it remains competitive with other low-carbon but use the new nuclear base-load as an opportunity to technologies. innovate and become a world leader in the sector? The deal includes a number of commitments to ensure that the UK’s nuclear sector has a highly skilled and Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for more diverse workforce. I recently signed the nuclear her intervention. She is absolutely right and I hope to sector gender commitment as part of the Government’s address that point in a few moments. commitment to the nuclear sector deal target of 40% women EDF has informed us that Wales is already benefiting in nuclear by 2030—and I say that to someone who has from work at the project; more than 1,000 Welsh residents clearly had a leadership position in Women2Win. have worked on it so far. Twenty-one apprentices who We believe that apprenticeships and higher education were previously employed at Wylfa are now working at will be a key component in achieving this goal, and are Hinkley Point C, and more than 100 Welsh companies working closely with industry and skills bodies through are working on the project, with contracts totalling the Nuclear Skills Strategy Group to understand the more than £150 million going their way. The project is skills requirements and potential challenges faced by also sourcing more than 200,000 tonnes of Welsh steel the sector. 433 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate 434 Change Change [Nadhim Zahawi] manufacturing and materials competition and up to £12 million to build regulatory capability, which is also The Government also consider that new technologies, important, to take future licensing decisions on small which my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble and advanced modular reactors in a safe way. mentioned, could play an important role in supporting I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for our economy and allowing the UK to continue to be a Ynys Môn once more for securing this important debate, world leader in tackling climate change. That is why our and the Members who have made interventions. Nuclear £200 million nuclear sector deal includes millions for can not only help us along the route to net zero by 2050, advanced nuclear technologies. We believe that both but is a key part of our economy. In 2018, there were small and advanced modular reactors have significant around 89,000 people employed across the UK nuclear potential to support a secure, affordable decarbonised workforce and its supply chain. Our nuclear sector deal energy system, alongside other low-carbon generation. is looking to develop the skills that the sector needs and That is why we have awarded £18 million to the low-cost build a more diverse workforce. Hinkley Point C will nuclear challenge proposed by a Rolls-Royce-led small kick-start new nuclear in the UK, providing firm base-load modular reactor consortium. The challenge aims to power and energy security for generations to come as design a working model that could be deployed as early we transition to a low-carbon economy. I look forward as 2030. The consortium believes that a UK SMR to working with all colleagues, and especially new ones, programme can support up to 40,000 jobs at its peak, to ensure that we deliver for north Wales and support with each SMR capable of powering 750,000 homes. the energy island. To support advanced modular reactor development, Question put and agreed to. we have committed up to £40 million to research and development through our AMR competition, the outcome of which will be announced shortly. Additionally, we 7.40 pm have committed up to £26 million for an advanced House adjourned. 85WH 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 86WH

The social workers knew what was happening; they had Westminster Hall given her recommendations about what to do. I think her death was eminently foreseeable, so I hope that the Wednesday 5 February 2020 Attorney General will agree to order the opening of an inquest and that the Home Office will support that. That was the genesis of Operation Augusta, which [SIR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] was set up to see whether many children—mainly girls aged between 13 and 16—were in the same situation as Operation Augusta Victoria Agoglia. A dedicated team of police officers was set up with embedded social workers to look at the 9.30 am situation. Relatively quickly, they found that there were 57 girls in a similar situation and 97 suspected perpetrators (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I of this kind of vile abuse. beg to move, The report makes it clear that although Operation That this House has considered Operation Augusta. Augusta was successful in identifying those girls and This is a story of the gross failure of public policy, suspected perpetrators, it was bedevilled by a lack of and the implementation of public policy, to protect resources and territorial disputes between three police vulnerable children. Andy Burnham, the Labour Mayor divisions in Manchester and about access to HOLMES, of Greater Manchester watched “The Betrayed Girls”, the police computer that records cases. The situation a BBC programme about the sexual abuse and exploitation was difficult, and it is clear that leadership was lacking. of young people, in 2017. Afterwards, he set up what After 16 months, Operation Augusta was wound up. became assurance review of the effectiveness of multi-agency responses to child sexual One of the many worrying factors about this report is exploitation in Greater Manchester. I want to discuss that the social workers and more junior police officers part 1, which is an assurance review of Operation have vivid and clear recollections of the operation. Augusta. James Daly (Bury North) (Con): The report is I watched “The Betrayed Girls” on Sunday evening scandalous, harrowing and difficult to read. I quote one on BBC iPlayer, and it was a harrowing experience. thing with reference to what the hon. Gentleman has Reading the report, one varies between despair and just said: outrage at the failures of Greater Manchester police “the decision to close down Operation Augusta was driven by the and Manchester City Council to protect mainly young decision by senior officers to remove the resources from the girls, but young boys too, from predatory sexual investigation rather than a sound understanding that all lines of exploitation. enquiry had been successfully completed or exhausted”. If we had the same rules as the US Senate, I would On its own merits, that is scandalous. That is in the ask for the report to be read into the record so that report. I also read— people could read it, but we do not, so I will have to summarise it. Part 1 focuses on Operation Augusta, Sir Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order.Interventions which was set up following the death of Victoria Agoglia must be short. on 29 September 2003. She died after being injected with heroin by a 50-year-old man. Shockingly, although James Daly: I do apologise— she died in 2003, the report states that there has been no follow-up investigation into her death, despite the fact Sir Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Could you that Peter Fahy, the chief constable, told her relatives resume your seat, please? afterwards that he was quite happy to look at the case again, which led them to believe that it would be. Since Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is underlining then, Peter Fahy has said that he was just being open. I and emphasising my point about the lack of resources think that is dissimulating to the point of dishonesty. It and leadership. was clearly the intention to reassure the family that the Two of the senior officers became chief constables death of this girl would not be forgotten. afterwards, and their recollection of events is either There has been no investigation, although there has non-existent or hazy.I simply do not believe that someone been a coroner’s inquest. Four of my colleagues from who had been in charge of such an operation and Manchester and I have written to the Attorney General received such awful reports would not remember—the asking for a fresh inquest. Reading the report, it is junior officers have clear memories of how it was finished. difficult to see why the coroner came to the conclusion That, of course, meant that the perpetrators, who were he did. It is particularly difficult because the current known about by the police and social workers, carried coroner is refusing to release documents. In the absence on, as the report says, in plain sight. A lot of the abuse of those documents, we would like the Attorney General took place above Indian restaurants on Wilmslow Road— to order a fresh inquest. the so-called curry mile—in south Manchester. Cars The coroner’s conclusion was that were known to pull up with girls, and the police did “there was no evidence of a gross failure to meet Victoria’s needs nothing—in fact, they withdrew from acting on that that would have had a significant bearing on her death” information. As the hon. Member for Bury North and that there could be no inference that the events (James Daly) said, that is scandalous. leading to her death were “reasonably foreseeable”. She Since the termination of Operation Augusta, the claimed she had been raped, sexually abused, assaulted response of Greater Manchester police and Manchester and plied with drugs for two years, and the coroner City Council to this quite shocking report has been to could not see how her death was reasonably foreseeable. apologise and to say that they are improving co-ordination 87WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 88WH

[Graham Stringer] children, as described in the report, is the same as paedophile rings. The Home Office has done good and intensifying work to identify people, and they have research on paedophile rings. They are understood by done that. The awful thing is that, for the last 50 years, the police and the Home Office, which know how to many of the children who have been abused and murdered disrupt them. However, very little research has been have become the subjects of well-known operations. done on grooming gangs. For instance, we do not know Reports always make 80 or 90 recommendations after whether there are “Mr Bigs” behind the gangs at a such failures, and those are always agreed to, but we national level or whether the cases represent major carry on writing reports, and children carry on being crime or decentralised local activity. That is important abused. Although I believe that Manchester City Council for our understanding; if it is major crime, organised on and Greater Manchester police are sincere in their a national and international basis like drug crime, the attempts to be more effective and to get their act together, National Crime Agency should be involved in disrupting we need to understand the issue more deeply by asking that activity.I would be grateful if the Minister explained why these things have happened time and again and when the Home Office will fund and sponsor research what can be done to prevent a report from being written into grooming gangs. in 16 years’ time about children who are on the streets As I said, if people had blown the whistle, a stop now, while we discuss this situation. could probably have been put to these things, because I referred to the clear memories of the more junior the public would not stand for them. I want to mention police officers and the amnesia of the senior officers two people who have stayed with this issue and have involved. If there had been a different culture and continued to bring it to the public’s attention since the stronger protections for whistleblowers, allowing those first Rochdale and Rotherham cases came to light. Sara junior police officers and social workers to report such Rowbotham, who worked in Rochdale as head of its cases in the knowledge that they would not lose their crisis intervention team and is now a Rochdale councillor, careers, I believe more would have been done. In no and Margaret Oliver, who was a detective on the Augusta sense would the public have put up with what happened team before her maternity leave, have constantly brought if they had known about it—they expect our children’s it to the public’s attention. Margaret has argued very services departments and the police to protect the most strongly, alongside the family of Victoria Agoglia, for vulnerable young women—but they know about it only the case to be re-opened and for the police to take more 16 years later. We need stronger protections for action against the perpetrators. Those two women deserve whistleblowers and an acceptance that bringing such serious praise for what they are doing. I do not want in issues to the attention of the public and senior politicians any sense to trivialise this serious debate, but they are is a good thing. more worthy of being nominated to the House of Lords Although there were disputes about resource allocation than some of the people who have been put forward by in the police force and between Greater Manchester the Labour party,which has put forward a pretty eccentric police and Manchester City Council, one has to remember list, to put it mildly. that, at the time, police numbers were going up and local government was better funded. That is no longer James Daly: I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman the case; there is not a children’s department in the on that. Why has nobody from the GMP or Manchester country that is not short of resources for the protection City Council been held accountable for the failings of children. We cannot wish, as I do, for better service identified in the report? provision for those vulnerable people without providing the resources. Police numbers have also gone down. Graham Stringer: I am not sure that I have a good However, that decline in resources does not apply to the answer for the hon. Gentleman. Some people, such as time of Operation Augusta. Pauline Newman, who was in charge of children’s services Another point that was made in “The Betrayed Girls” at the time, have moved on. The senior police officers and in the report, and that has been made more generally, who took the decision to wind up operation Augusta is that the vast majority of the men involved were of have moved on and are not co-operating—one is not Pakistani origin and of the Muslim faith. The police, talking at all, and the other says he cannot remember. who probably had good intentions, made a mistake in In such circumstances, when people are no longer employed saying, “We will be accused of racism if we point this by the city council or Greater Manchester police, it is out.” Nazir Afzal, the previous director of public difficult to know what action could be taken or by prosecutions in the north-west and a practising Muslim, whom. However,the hon. Gentleman asks a good question. said that such activities are against the teaching of A line of accountability is needed. When one reads the Islam and of the Koran, and that the vast majority of report and some of the reports since, records of meetings Pakistani people are as appalled by what has happened or of attendees at those meetings are absent in some as the rest of the population. That is not to say that one cases. That makes things difficult. However, if his point should hide what has happened on Wilmslow Road or is that somebody should be held accountable, I agree in other parts of the country, such as Telford, Rotherham, with him. That is clearly right. Rochdale, Oxford or Ipswich—one can go on and on The final point I want to make in this sad story is that listing different towns where such cases have happened. the police and Manchester City Council have said that A final point on resources is that a number of requests they will improve. Today, however, Greater Manchester have been made for the Home Office to do serious police have declared a “critical incident”in the introduction research into grooming. My hon. Friend the Member of their iOPS computer system, which 90% of police for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) recently asked that officers rely on to get information. The system cost of the Home Office, both by letter and on the Floor of £29 million and is not working. With the best will in the the House. It is a mistake to think that the grooming of world, if the officers whose job it is to look into these 89WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 90WH allegations do not know what is happening, they cannot Reading the report, I am afraid that I had such a do their job. We need not only resources—more police sense of déjà vu. It talked about the horrendous way in officers—but the proper use of resources and computer which Victoria Agoglia met her death, stating that “No systems. Currently, when I have no doubt that many action was taken” by the police or social care to address perpetrators are still walking the streets of Greater the issues. The “scoping phase” of the investigation Manchester and other cities, we need Greater Manchester “built up a compelling picture of the systemic exploitation of police to do better. looked after children in the care system in the city of Manchester”, This is an awful and shocking story of the failure to and found that “97 persons of interest” were protect some of the most vulnerable people in the “identified as being involved…in the sexual exploitation of the country. One of the failures, which was a mistake, is victims”. that action was not taken in some cases because the None of those 97, it would appear, has been brought to police said that the girls were not reliable witnesses. justice. The report concluded that although “significant However, there have been policy statements to the effect information” was that we do not have to rely on the victims to protect themselves in order to take the perpetrators to court. I “held by both Manchester City Council and Greater Manchester hope that the Home Office and all the councils in the Police on some individuals who potentially posed a risk to children, the review team can offer no assurance that appropriate action country will redouble their efforts to ensure that such was taken to address this risk.” activities, which I am sure still happen, are stopped. Sixteen children in the sample were being sexually exploited, and the review team could offer no 9.54 am “assurance that this was appropriately addressed by either Greater (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Manchester Police or…the responsible local authority.” First, I draw attention to my entry in the register. Evidence was presented and victims—often vulnerable Secondly, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Blackley children in the care system—were not believed, even and Broughton (Graham Stringer) for bringing this when they were brave enough to present. Victims were case before the House. It received very little coverage—a almost tarred as perpetrators, for bringing it on themselves. few headlines in the newspapers—and was not mentioned In some earlier studies, comments referred to “child at all in this House. Yet the report was of huge significance, prostitutes”—but there is no such thing as a child not just historically, but for the lessons that still need to prostitute. If you are a child, and if you are engaged in be learned, as he alluded to today: how we are still not sexual activity at the hands of somebody else, that is not dealing adequately enough with child sexual abuse in all prostitution; that is child abuse.It is child sexual exploitation, its forms; and in particular whether we are policing it plain and simple. That phrase “child prostitution”should properly. have no place in our lexicon. We are talking about As everyone will agree, the report is troubling and children,particularlyvulnerablechildrenwhowereruthlessly makes for uncomfortable reading, such as the tragedy exploited and taken advantage of by some very unpleasant of Victoria Agoglia, the 15-year-old so badly let down individuals. in the care of Manchester City Council. Her treatment The whole thing was therefore all too difficult to has many wider implications for vulnerable young people handle. There were ridiculous considerations of political exposed to child sexual exploitation. correctness—which I am afraid were all-pervading, I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned Maggie particularly in those days—and the police and other Oliver, who has been the hero throughout the whole of local agencies did not want to rock the boat, so it was this sorry episode. She called out the neglect—to put it swept under the carpet. Even with those 97 identified mildly—in effect sacrificed her career and has at last potential suspects, the inquiry was prematurely closed. been vindicated after all that time. I met Maggie at the One phrase from the report about the perpetrators “Newsnight” studio when this issue came up and we summed it up for me: were interviewed, just a few weeks ago. I hope the “They weren’t viewed as sex offenders per se, just a group of charity that she is looking to set up to continue her men of all ages, from one ethnicity taking advantage of kids from good work will be a great success. dysfunctional backgrounds.” I pay tribute to the Mayor of Manchester for It was almost the kids’ fault; those people just happened commissioning his review—historical, because it was to be there and took advantage. There is clear evidence many years before Manchester had an elected Mayor. that young people were not served or protected by the This is only the first phase of that review, and four statutory agencies. The hon. Member for Blackley and further stories that may make equally uncomfortable Broughton made the point that there is no evidence of reading will come out in future. I also pay tribute to any misconduct charges having been brought against the BBC and the “Betrayed Girls” programme, which anyone involved in the failures of this case. There was a highlighted some of the horrors that happened. clear absence of identifying where the buck stopped. I am afraid that the situation is not untypical. When I Some of those police officers are still in the police force, was Children’s Minister, one of the least enjoyable parts in one case at the level of chief constable, and their of my job was, every Monday morning, a run-through careers have advanced with apparently no consequences of all the cases that had come in of child abuse or child of the failures raised in the report. That must be addressed. fatalities, often at the hands of carers, and of the latest That attitude was all too common before 2011. There state of play in the court cases. Only a few high-profile was a combination of ignorance, inadequate training, issues—the Victoria Climbiés, the Baby Ps and some of complacency, political correctness and indifference to these gangs—reached the headlines, but they were just vulnerable children. However, I believe that there was a the tip of the iceberg. This was going on wholescale, at sea change in 2011. Operation Retriever, which was the an industrial level, and to an extent it still is. first high-profile operation, identified, prosecuted and 91WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 92WH

[Tim Loughton] The question is: have things changed? Have the police, and all agencies, got wiser to detecting and taking jailed a gang of British Pakistani men based in Derby seriously allegations of child sexual abuse? Have mindsets and other cities across the north. It was bravely brought changed since 2004? The people who should have been by Sheila Taylor, who at the time was running a charity looking after vulnerable children were just not; they for victims in Derby. Through her constant badgering were questioning whether anything serious was happening of the police to take the matter seriously, she made sure to them. Back in 2004 we were focused on cases such as that it was properly investigated. That was the turning that of Victoria Climbié. We had just had the Laming point. review. Abuse of children was largely down to carers That case was about the scale abuse of mostly but not inflicting violence on vulnerable children. The whole exclusively teenage girls, by mostly but not exclusively business of gangs and sexual exploitation was not on British Pakistani gangs of men. Let us be clear: child the radar. Some seven or eight years later, that very sexual exploitation is committed by all sorts of people much came on to the radar. from all sorts of backgrounds. Most of those in jail will What has changed—I saw this in my time as Children’s be white men who have committed various forms of Minister and subsequently—is that now every single child sexual exploitation, but this was a case of organised, police officer is trained to identify child sexual exploitation. systematic gang abuse by predominantly British Pakistani We have better joint working between agencies, although men and it was not properly called out, identified and it is still not nearly good enough—I have serious concerns prosecuted so that those people could be brought to about the successors to the local safeguarding children justice. That sea change came about in 2011. boards properly joining up all the local interested parties. More cases are coming to court. Indeed, some 50% of James Daly: The report mentioned a 2014 interview cases going through the courts at the moment are to do in which Victoria’s grandmother said that the men were with historical and contemporary sexual abuse. The still walking around in the local community. Nothing problem is that far too little is ending up in prosecutions, happened between 2014 and 2018, when the investigation particularly for contemporary sexual abuse and rape. It took place. If there was such a sea change in 2011, can is still a big problem in this country. my hon. Friend explain what happened between June I would like to finish with some of the statistics. Last 2014 and 2018? year something like 104,000 children went through the Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; care system in this country. It was estimated by an there are still serious shortcomings in this case, but I am all-party group led by our former colleague Ann Coffey, trying to draw a picture of why things changed nationally who did a lot of very good work, that 11,500, or 11%, and why there are grounds for optimism, although one went missing at some stage. The National Society for would not believe it to look at this report. the Prevention of Cruelty to Children estimates that a child is abused in this country every seven minutes. The report needs to lead to further investigation into There were some 76,000 reported sexual offences—a the culpability of the perpetrators and the people who record level and a big rise over recent years—and 20% of failed to identify and do something about them. Back in those relate to children under the age of 10. That is 2011, the Government produced the first comprehensive down to better reporting and better police recording, child sexual exploitation plan. I launched it, together but also to the fact that it is still a problem and we are with Barnardo’s, and worked with other agencies. It not doing enough about it. It is also to do with children made it clear that that sort of CSE was going on in all in the care system not being properly looked after. parts of society and all parts of our country; it is not just a preserve of northern metropolitan cities such as Too many children are excluded from school— Manchester. It happens in all parts of town; it is not 42 children a day are permanently excluded from school something that just happens to those sorts of people in and 410 are on fixed-term exclusions. They end up in a different part of town. It happened to the children of gang and knife culture and become vulnerable to predators. doctors, lawyers and other professionals from all walks Back in 2011-12 we produced heat maps of where of life. The shocking images of gang members started children should be placed. Senior police officers and to appear in the newspaper, and people started to wake heads of schools from Kent, where a disproportionate up to it. number of children in care are placed—largely from What really caused that sea change was the Jimmy London boroughs—came to see me. They told me that Savile scandal the following year. It became a different they were seriously worried about being overwhelmed world. From October 2012, most people in this country by children in the care system who were not properly came to realise what child sexual exploitation actually looked after and were placed in wholly inappropriate was, and that it was happening. Awareness rose hugely. areas. We had cases of children being placed in children’s It was widespread throughout all sorts of society: in the homes on the same streets as sex offender hostels. health service, in education, in children’s homes, in We changed the regulations so that where children the Church of England—I refer to the recent exposure are placed out of the area of the local authority responsible about Bishop Peter Ball. Again, the police just shoved it for them, the director of children’s services will be under the carpet and did not properly pursue it. It responsible for a risk assessment of whether the place is happened in politics, with Cyril Smith and Operation appropriate and safe—not just whether the house was Midland, where there were serious shortcomings—that okay, but whether the area was okay. Still, 41% of will be the subject of further debate in this House in due children across the care system are placed out of area. course. It was happening in Rotherham, Oxford, Cornwall, In the case of going to children’s homes, that is over two Rochdale, Telford and so on. That led to the historic thirds. Those heat maps are still not being properly child abuse inquiry, which is still undertaking its huge enforced. That is part of the reason why too many of job of work. our children are still vulnerable. 93WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 94WH

My plea is that we learn the lessons. We need to know have probably 300 perpetrators of exactly the same why people were not brought to account, and they still method of criminality in jail. Please, let us use that need to be brought to account. Are perpetrators still resource and use their experience for a positive purpose. out there who could be prosecuted? What are we doing I also want to focus the Minister’s attention on the for the victims—those children who are still suffering fact that statutory support for victims and survivors the trauma of having gone through their experiences, just disappears as soon as they turn 18. That is very which have been brought up again by the publication of important because, under this method of criminality, this report? Are we properly looking after their interests? although children tend to be groomed at around 12 or 13 What are we doing now to ensure that those vulnerable and the sexual exploitation happens between 13 and 16, it children are properly looked after by agencies who get continues into adulthood. Often, because of the mental it? Agencies must know the extent of the problem, torture and manipulation that victims have gone through, know what they have to do and act together in the best it takes them years once the abuse has stopped to be interests of the welfare of those children, so that tragic able to articulate it, let alone to be believed. That is why cases such as Victoria’s never happen again. it tends to be adults who come forward to speak about these crimes. We need support in place for adults to Several hon. Members rose— enable them, I hope, to have the strength to go through the court process. Sir Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. Before I Next week, I will launch a report by my all-party call Sarah Champion, let me point out that the hon. parliamentary group, the APPG on adult survivors of Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) childhood sexual abuse, on the impact of this crime and referred at the outset of his speech to his entry in the the likelihood of justice. It impacts every aspect of the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, but that in lives of survivors, from their mental health to their itself is not sufficient in a debate. People who are not physical health. It affects their likelihood of being addicted privy to that register entry need to know the relevance to drugs, their ability—or inability—to maintain long-term of it, so I will point out that the hon. Gentleman’s relationships, and their ability to fulfil their education register entry includes a reference to the fact that he is a and therefore their career. I say to the Minister that he paid adviser to the board of the Outcomes First Group. needs to work in a cross-departmental way to establish That is the relevance of it. I remind hon. Members, a fund so anybody who discloses this sort of abuse, particularly at the beginning of a new Parliament, that particularly if they are an adult, can immediately get, the whole purpose is to promote transparency. for example, six sessions of counselling or support. That would enable them to stabilise their life so they can 10.10 am go on and have a good life, and to be a good witness so Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): As ever, it is a we can get the prosecutions we so desperately need. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. A number of Members mentioned accountability. I am going to be brief, because I have said the same Accountability is important because, clearly, people thing for six years. However, I think it needs reiterating, have failed in their duty to protect those children, for because it clearly is not getting through. I am incredibly whatever reason. Accountability is important because grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley we need to know it will not happen again. If there are and Broughton (Graham Stringer) for bringing this training needs or if some sort of disciplinary action debate forward. These things need to be heard, because should follow, that should be implemented so other things are still going wrong. I, too, watched the drama children are not let down in the future. “The Betrayed Girls”, but it could have been a documentary The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham and, to be honest, it could have been almost anywhere (Tim Loughton), who has done so much in this area, in the country. Time and again, I meet girls—often, said that this issue was not really on the radar of the they are now young women—who have been through statutory agencies until 2011. I agree, but he also knows an identical experience. that this model of behaviour has been going on since the early ’60s. That is the earliest I can find it documented. There is an almost identical pattern of grooming and I have people in Keighley, Birmingham and, indeed, then sexual exploitation, which often leads to trafficking Rotherham who can testify that they saw it going on in and prostitution as the children become adults, so I am the early ’60s. It was not on the radar of the statutory concerned that there is still no national strategy for the agencies, but it was on the radar of the wider communities. disruption and prevention of this specific form of child There was a lack of trust and respect because people abuse. Why is that? There are incredibly close similarities knew a crime was being carried out but the agencies did between grooming and exploiting children for sex, and not act on it. Unless there is accountability now, it will grooming and exploiting children for criminal activities. be very hard to bring forward that trust and respect. I My hunch—I do not know this; it is just a hunch—is therefore urge the Minister, on behalf of the survivors that those things are probably done by similar gangs of and of children who are still vulnerable, to ensure that people. Will the Minister please commission research we have a fund for survivors and that we see accountability on that? for these crimes. As my hon. Friend said, we also need a perpetrator profile. Unless the police understand the way these Several hon. Members rose— networks operate, they are unable to disrupt them—they are unable to get ahead of the curve and prevent children Sir Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. The from being harmed. We absolutely must have that profile. winding-up speeches will begin at 10.40 am. Five people It would be a simple thing to do. A forensic psychologist wish to speak, so I encourage a self-denying ordinance of could be commissioned to do it. Again to be blunt, we a maximum of five minutes each. I call Chris Green. 95WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 96WH

10.15 am see Operation Augusta described as a success. It was an utter failure. Its closure was a decision by the gold Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): It is a pleasure to commander, and in Andy Burnham’s response to our serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I letter and his description of it, he accepts the lack of congratulate the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton knowledge. There is no challenge and no sense of an (Graham Stringer) on securing this important and timely injustice. debate. Data sharing is incredibly important in these matters. We remember what Operation Augusta was about: The Mayor watched the television programme, and he the death of Victoria Agoglia due to a drug overdose started the inquiry in September 2017. In January 2018, inflicted on her by a 50-year-old man. She was in care. Greater Manchester police agreed what access the review She should have had a huge amount of support from could have to that data. In September 2018—a year the state, but it was not there. It is right that the review after the review started—Rochdale Borough Council commissioned by the Mayor of Greater Manchester, agreed on access, and a month after that Manchester Andy Burnham, reflected on that, and it is right that we City Council agreed on access. Considering that we are should look at the support for victims and seek to talking about the production-line rape of children, it is punish the criminals who were there at that time, but we extraordinary that it took Rochdale and Manchester should also challenge the decision makers. councils a year to agree access to information. This was Those people—people in Greater Manchester police, a serious review, with serious people heading it, and it and social workers in Manchester City Council—made took a year to reach agreement. I do not see how the decisions. Those people knew exactly what was anyone cannot be aghast at that. going on, but they have not been challenged for their It is a consistent feature that when the Mayor of actions,whether they amount to negligence and misconduct Greater Manchester ought to be challenging what has—or or criminal actions. Because of the lack of challenge at has not—been done, there is silence. If council leaders the time, and the apparent lack of challenge now, we do or people in the councils were not handing over information not know where those people are. Have they been or being forthcoming, he should have used not just his promoted elsewhere? We know they were involved in a position as police and crime commissioner of Greater cover-up. It seems clear to anyone who looks at this that Manchester police but his public platform as Mayor of there was a cover-up. If those people were promoted Greater Manchester to challenge them to hand it over, elsewhere or moved sideways, did that cover-up and but he chose not to. that culture move with them? A huge amount of follow-up work needs to be done. A number of colleagues wrote a letter to Andy Burnham, The report should have been in one piece, but it has the Mayor of Greater Manchester, challenging him on a been split up because of the delays. The sense of a number of concerns in the report. I think we were all cover-up and everything being kicked into the long pretty disappointed at his rather supine response. He grass is clear to anyone who reads the report and the accepts that Operation Augusta stopped solely due to response from Andy Burnham to our letter. The Minister, lack of resource, but the number of police officers in in reading Andy Burnham’sresponse, will find he mentions Greater Manchester police increased by more than 1,000 throughout it his lack of ability to act. If he cannot or between 1997 and 2004-05. It had 1,000 additional will not act, I call on the Government to intervene: to police officers in that time, yet we hear there was a lack look at Greater Manchester police and Manchester of resource. City Council and to take action where it is needed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly) highlighted, there were a number of live 10.23 am inquiries, and we know the nature of the crime committed against Victoria Agoglia, but we ought to focus on the Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I am grateful Manchester Evening News headline, which captures so to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton much: “A paedophile grooming gang was left to roam (Graham Stringer) for bringing this important issue to the streets of Manchester—and police knew who they the House. The devastating revelations about Greater were and exactly what they were doing”. That is what Manchester police’s Operation Augusta published last we know to be true. The people who were involved in month brought home the shocking truths of institutional the decision making at that time have not been held to failure in the safeguarding of children. That damning account. I am not sure it is credible to say this is only report catalogued the failings of Greater Manchester about resources. police and Manchester City Council. It identified a It is also incredible that the identity of the gold grooming gang of up to 100 members in Manchester commander—the person who made the decision to end who were found to have abused at least 57 children, Operation Augusta—is not known. It is also incredible some as young as 12, who were all in the care of that, just as his or her identity is not known, the minutes Manchester social services. That included 15-year-old from Greater Manchester police of the meeting where it Victoria Agoglia. was decided to end Operation Augusta have disappeared— It is evident from the report that the attitude of the and, by amazing coincidence, the minutes from Manchester police and council at the time was dismissive. They City Council disappeared at the same time. How many dismissed Victoria’s account of her abuse and instead people at this stage would not suspect a cover-up? focused on her The report references successes. It has been highlighted “propensity to provide sexual favours” that of the 97 individuals under scrutiny for grooming, thereby painting her and the other girls experiencing plying children with drugs and raping children, three abuse as the problem rather than the victims. The report were imprisoned—three of 97. That is referred to in the makes for extremely difficult reading, but I welcome its report as a success. In no way can an objective person publication and thank Greater Manchester’s Mayor, 97WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 98WH

Andy Burnham. It is only by fully facing up to the facts the risk of significant harm caused by the men who were sexually and past failures that we can correct them and ensure exploiting her, statutory child protection procedures, which should that they cannot not happen again. have been deployed to protect her, were not utilised”. The report is set out as an assurance review, yet, from a Victoria Agoglia’s family have been calling for her sample of 25 children, there are no assurances. In the abuse to be investigated ever since her death. My thoughts case of Victoria and 15 others, where there was are with them and other survivors of child sexual exploitation. No child, at any age, should be able to slip “significant probability of child sexual abuse”, through the net in society. We have a moral duty to the report gave “no assurance” that that had been ensure that every child is protected from exploitation. appropriately addressed by Greater Manchester police We know all too well that what happened to Victoria or Manchester City Council. Agoglia was not an isolated case. In the last 10 years, we Those young schoolgirls were known to be being have seen high-profile scandals across the country, from abused. They were not being protected from harm, and Oxford to Rochdale and Rotherham, and each time the yet the investigation, Operation Augusta, which commenced failures of the police and social care services are plain following the death of Victoria in September 2003, was to see. summarily and prematurely closed down on 1 July 2005. My concern is that there are even more child sexual Some 12 years later,the BBC documentary “The Betrayed exploitation scandals that have not been identified. Just Girls” exposed the shocking extent of child sexual as Greater Manchester police is reopening its historic exploitation in Greater Manchester, and the Mayor of child sexual exploitation investigations, other cities and Greater Manchester commissioned the assurance exercise towns across the country should look back on theirs to that reported in January, more than two years later. ensure that no victim of abuse has been left without In the light of the review, I joined other Greater justice. Manchester MPs and co-signed a letter, sent by my hon. Thankfully, since the high-profile cases in Rotherham Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green), to and Rochdale, significant changes have been made to the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. I how our institutions safeguard vulnerable children. Lessons hope to hear reassurance that people who see failings have been learnt from historical cases, but we must and neglect can bring them to light and challenge the never again be allowed to forget that the safety of children system without fear. It takes incredible bravery to be a is paramount. That is why I, along with other Manchester whistleblower, but it should not. People who speak out MPs, wrote to the Attorney General, following the and highlight negligence and misconduct can save lives— review’s publication, calling for a new inquest into the people such as Maggie Oliver and Sara Rowbotham, coroner’s verdict on Victoria Agoglia’s death. We are all whose actions were instrumental in exposing the failure committed to finally getting justice for Victoria, her to protect children and led to the opening of the family and all survivors of child sexual exploitation. I investigation. hope the Minister will support our request. Many whistleblowers who fight uphill battles to get It is easy to say, “never again will children be subjected justice for victims too often find themselves becoming to abuse or sexual exploitation,” but sadly that is not the target of retaliation and unfounded allegations to within our power to dictate. All we can do is ensure that undermine their actions. safeguarding measures for vulnerable children are absolutely watertight. Our institutions must be equipped with the Chris Green: We hear about Greater Manchester knowledge and resources needed to deal effectively with police and the culture having shifted, but when it comes safeguarding concerns when they arise. No victim should to whistleblowers and the failure of iOPS—it crashed ever go through what Victoria suffered in Manchester overnight, and there might be a serious incident in 15 years ago. On child sexual exploitation, we must Greater Manchester—off-duty police officers have told never again choose the easy path over the right path. me that they are threatened with summary dismissal if they talk to an MP or the press about it. The culture of clamping down on whistleblowers seems to be alive and 10.28 am well in Greater Manchester police. Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): It is a pleasure to Mary Robinson: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I thank head. Without action to tackle that, we will see more of the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham these cases. It is imperative that such issues are taken Stringer) for securing the debate. My thoughts, like seriously in Greater Manchester and across the country. those of other hon. Members, are with the family of I am not wholly satisfied with the response that we Victoria Agoglia and the other 25 victims identified in received from the Mayor to our letter. While recognising the recently published review, who were so tragically let the bravery of the whistleblowers in this case, he offers down, as well as with the many for whom suffering is no indication of what action he will take to ensure that ongoing. future whistleblowers are valued and protected. If people While the terms of reference of the Operation Augusta are afraid to speak out or suspect they will not be assurance review, commissioned by Greater Manchester listened to, negligence, malpractice and abuse will continue Mayor Andy Burnham, indicated its intention to be a to go unchallenged. forward-facing exercise, the comments on the failures to A recent report by the all-party parliamentary group protect Victoria are damning. Chapter 2.11 sets that out on whistleblowing highlighted the case for having an clearly, leaving no doubt that independent office for the whistleblower and a ban on non- “Victoria Agoglia was exposed to the most profound harm, at disclosure agreements in whistleblowing cases, as well as least from the age of 13. Her exposure to sexual exploitation by protection against retaliation. I hope the Minister will be adult males was known to police and social services and, despite able to consider some of those potential resolutions. 99WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 100WH

[Mary Robinson] In my opinion, the report has been commissioned not only to prevent these things from happening again, in The Manchester Evening News and its investigative any town, in any local authority and in any way, but to reporter Jen Williams have given this case extensive send a message to these girls that a price has been paid, coverage, and we owe them thanks for their reporting. that notice has been taken and that the hurt they suffer One of the headlines read: “Apaedophile grooming gang will not go unanswered. was left to roam the streets of Manchester—and police knew who they were and exactly what they were doing”. Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): Amid ongoing concerns that a cover-up took place in Does the hon. Gentleman agree that for the report to be the case of Operation Augusta, questions remain. Who truly effective somebody has to be held to account? The knew about the scale of the abuse of those children? Why collective amnesia of the people involved at the highest did nobody speak out? Could it happen again? In the levels is simply not acceptable. light of today’s revelations that the iOPS system is not properlyrecording,orallowingofficerstoaccess,information Jim Shannon: I wholeheartedly agree. We are all here on potentially serious cases, that is a live issue. with the collective impression that that is what we want I welcome the Home Office’s intention to publish a to see. national strategy across law enforcement and government The first part of the report clarifies the dreadful authorities to tackle child sexual abuse. When can we litany of failures, which were followed by an investigation expect that strategy to be published? Will the protection that did not achieve its aims and was halted in order to of whistleblowers form part of it so that the shocking reallocate resources, without protecting the notified incidents of abuse, neglect and abject failure highlighted vulnerable children or ensuring that the hands that had today are not repeated? stolen the innocence of these children—stolen most of the happiness of their future—were behind bars and 10.34 am prevented from harming anyone else. The operation Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. was not brought to a conclusion, but simply concluded. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) That is not good enough. for setting the scene. I respect him for bringing this I support my fellow MPs who are raising the issue sensitive and distressing topic to the attention of the again to ensure that no more children, cases or attacks House. I remember the BBC documentary being aired on the vulnerable fall through the cracks. We must learn and the girls in the office discussing it in terms of shock, from this terrible ordeal, and put in place safeguards anger and distress. The years have passed, but when that are effective and a structure that does not allow I read the assurance review of Operation Augusta, I those safeguards to fall like dominos, leaving a child remained shocked, angered and distressed. open and vulnerable to abuse. It should not have happened, I will not go into the individual cases reported in the and it must not be repeated. I look forward to hearing document, which hon. Members have referred to, but I how the Government will make necessary, long-lasting highlight the fact that these are not simply cases or changes to help keep our children in care actually numbers: they are the lives of young girls, their families cared for. and, in some cases, their children. Those lives have been ruined, a community has been torn to shreds and 10.37 am authorities, even now, at this late stage, must take a long, hard look at the way things have been done. Their James Daly (Bury North) (Con): My thoughts are inaction has led to loss of life and the destruction of with the victims of these crimes. I hope they have had many lives. the help and assistance they require to come to terms Sometimes a series of events merge to create a perfect with what has happened to them, and that they go on to storm. Without one of the elements present, the storm live positive and fruitful lives. I am sure they will. could not take place. This was not a perfect storm of In the short time I have, I want to make one point. aligned, mutually exclusive events; this was a series of The report is horrific. For 14 years, men in an area of authorities, and the individuals working for them, simply Greater Manchester were allowed to commit the most not acting to protect these vulnerable girls. Different horrific offences, and it was known to the authorities. factors played into that: some people did not have the That speaks for itself. In the report, individuals are time or resources to do more than nod towards good identified who must be held to account. As a Member practice, while others were frightened of rocking the of Parliament representing a seat in Greater Manchester boat, seeming racist or stirring racial tension. Whatever where police are investigating similar offences, I ask the the underlying reason, the result was at least one death Minister what the Government can do to hold to account and thousands of instances of unaccountable abuse. those officers who have taken decisions and behaved in That is truly unforgivable. a way that has put young lives at risk and ruined them? Through my work as an elected representative, I have Despite those circumstances, nothing seems to have tried to help a lady who was dreadfully abused as a child happened. and used in the same way as these girls. Her scars are The underlying tone of the report is that, for too apparent and she has no peace. She cannot get over long, nobody cared and nobody had any interest in what happened to her and the lack of justice for those these girls. I hope that is going to change. One of unpunished crimes. The same has happened on a wide the ways we can make that change is by ensuring that scale to these girls. They must not be wandering around those who are responsible for the decisions—or the at the age of 40, still dealing with the trauma of what lack of decisions—to protect their interests are held to happened, without help or support, and with no one account. Putting it bluntly, we cannot allow them to get saying that it was unacceptable. away with it. 101WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 102WH

10.39 am The hon. Member for Bury North quoted paragraph 1.18 of the independent assurance review, which said that Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): It is of course always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in “the decision to close down Operation Augusta was driven by the Westminster Hall, Sir Christopher, but today’s debate decision by senior officers to remove the resources from the investigation rather than a sound understanding that all lines of has been both sobering and searching. I pay credit first enquiry had been successfully completed or exhausted.” to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) for raising these important matters—the Paragraph 1.16 refers to events that have flowed from the awful, tragic death of “fundamental flaws in how Operation Augusta was resourced”. Victoria Agoglia on 29 September 2003 and the extent However, as the hon. Member for Bolton West pointed to which she and many other victims of child sexual out, it was hardly a period that could be described as exploitation have been let down in the years since. lacking resources, so it is extraordinary that that should My hon. Friend put the case for a fresh inquest have been the case. Clearly, in considering the matter, persuasively, and I am sure that that will be considered there must be a review of how that came to pass in 2005. in due course by the Attorney General. I think we The consequences were even more worrying, because would all agree that the first duty of Government is to the review team examined a sample of 25 children and keep the public safe, but there is a particular duty with could offer no assurance at all that appropriate action regard to vulnerable children—particularly those in the was taken by Greater Manchester police or even the care of the state, whether that is under public authorities local authority to assess the risk in relation to 16 children or, indeed, elsewhere. Clearly there has been a systemic in that sample. That—I remind the House of my opening failure in the case we are considering and in others. My remarks about the importance of children in the care hon. Friend made a persuasive point about Home Office system—is utterly unacceptable. research into grooming. I hope the Minister will take that on board and consider it when he makes his remarks. The BBC drama that has been referred to, “The Betrayed Girls”, gave rise to the investigation that we I am also grateful for the contributions by the hon. have all been quoting from. I understand that the police Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), have accepted their failings in relation to Operation who drew on his well-known expertise from his period Augusta, and referred themselves to the Independent as the Minister for Children, and from my hon. Friend Police Complaints Commission. There is also the new the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), the investigation, Operation Green Jacket. I understand hon. Member for Bolton West (Chris Green), my hon. that, to date, the investigation has resulted in one man Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal being arrested and another interviewed under caution, Khan) and the hon. Members for Cheadle (Mary in September 2019, in connection with the abuse of Robinson), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Bury Victoria Agoglia. The men have been released under North (James Daly). They made powerful contributions. investigation. I will obviously be careful about commenting Although he did not make a speech, the hon. Member on an ongoing investigation, but I think I can make the for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) made a general point that it is far easier to investigate these powerful and important contribution to the debate in things closer to the time than it is to do it 14 years later an intervention. or, in the case of Victoria Agoglia, 16 years later. The BBC broadcast in July 2017, “The Betrayed The Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, Girls”, was harrowing and seems to have triggered the has said that there is the same problematic institutional second phase of investigations. However,serious questions mindset in public authorities elsewhere. He is absolutely must be raised about why it took so long. Operation correct about that, and it is something we now need to Augusta was launched in February 2004, after Victoria tackle. As we consider the matter today, so many years Agoglia’s death the previous autumn. Many right hon. after the event, there are three things to raise with the and hon. Members have described the report as harrowing, Minister. First, can he guarantee that full funding, given the talk of abuse in plain sight of officials, and including special grant resource if necessary, will be what it says about the death of Victoria Agoglia. As has provided to Greater Manchester police to ensure that been said, she died of a suspected overdose, months they have all the resources necessary to bring perpetrators after telling social workers she had been forcibly injected to justice, even after the time that has elapsed? with heroin and raped. Abusers seem to have been able to pick up girls from care homes in and around Manchester’s Secondly, there needs to be a reassurance that lessons curry mile and to abuse them in the city. are being learned. It is all very well saying, “Never However, on 1 July 2005, Operation Augusta was again”, but that has to mean something. I would like closed down. It had identified 57 girls at risk and the Minister to give some assurances. There should 97 suspects. Those 16 months do not seem to have been never be an expectation that vulnerable children and wasted; they must have been pretty productive to have young people can provide protection for themselves. found that information. That makes it all the more Also, as has clearly come out in the debate, we must incomprehensible that the operation was closed down. listen to what child victims say, but in considering Hon. Members have referred to the review that was standard investigative practice, there is also the question made available in January this year. The review team of whistleblowers. Wehave heard today about the powerful identified 68 individuals known to Operation Augusta testimony of those who have been willing to take risks who could reasonably be assumed to be part of that in coming forward to expose shocking abuse. group of 97. Instead of the 97 persons of interest being Thirdly, and on the broader issue of the exploitation prosecuted, and the victims protected, the operation that has occurred, it is still extraordinarily worrying to was closed down. That decision has been described see the number of children in care who have either been today as scandalous, and I find it incomprehensible why abused or ended up in prison. In the light of Operation it would be taken, in the circumstances. Augusta and all the other failings, what consideration 103WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 104WH

[Nick Thomas-Symonds] has gone wrong and learn lessons for the future. The inquiry is investigating institutional responses to child will the Government give to an independent review of sexual exploitation by organised networks, with public whether authorities up and down the country,of whatever hearings scheduled to take place from 20 April this year. political stripe, are meeting their statutory responsibility There was some talk in the debate about commissioning to carry out that most important of tasks—the safeguarding research; I understand the inquiry has already announced of children in care? it has commissioned research into the motivation and behaviour of perpetrators who operate as part of organised 10.48 am networks. Given that, we do not believe it would be appropriate for the Government to set about duplicating The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the the work while it is under way. We will wait for the Home Department (Kevin Foster): It is a pleasure to findings and are ready to commission further research if serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I want necessary. I feel I might be about to get some comments to thank the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton on this from the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah (Graham Stringer) for securing this debate on the Champion), who I will happily give way to. independent assurance review on child sexual exploitation in Manchester, and particularly for the serious and effective tone he set for the debate. The subject is clearly Sarah Champion: I am a core participant in that bit of important not only to Members for Greater Manchester the IICSA inquiry, and unfortunately the Minister has constituencies, but to Members representing places across been sold a pup—it would be a nice pup—because it is the country, given what the review uncovered. looking very much at those six organisations and how they deal with the problem going forward. There is no The report of the first phase of the review, focusing retrospective accountability, and there is not the detailed on Operation Augusta, was shocking. It told a story investigation into the profile of perpetrators that the that has sadly become far too familiar, of vulnerable police really need. young people let down by those whose job it was to protect them. The Government welcome the publication of the report. While it is distressing to read, we must Kevin Foster: I thank the hon. Member for her bear in mind that reviews such as the independent intervention. I am sure that my ministerial colleague review in Manchester are critical. If we do not confront will be happy to hear her response and discuss it, the failures of the past, we risk repeating them. Reviews perhaps at greater length, if there are specific concerns. such as this give a voice to the survivors of abuse and Obviously the independent review is independent and allow their stories to be heard—stories that previously will scope its own research as it sees fit and appropriate, were too often ignored. so the Government are loth to potentially duplicate I turn to one or two of the points raised during the that. Moreover, the point of having an independent debate by hon. Members. Regarding the query from my review is to hear the view of an independent source, hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mary Robinson), rather than its being the Home Office as such that is we expect the review later this year. However, we as the commissioning research. Certainly we would be more Government cannot commit to a specific date, because than happy to engage perhaps a little bit further than the report is an independent one and therefore the exact we will be able to do in the remaining six minutes of this date of publication is in the hands of the reviewer. debate, if she has particular concerns. There were particular queries in relation to the coroner’s The victims and survivors of these crimes demonstrate report; I understand that there has been correspondence enormous courage and strength in coming forward, between the Mayor of Greater Manchester and the reporting what is happening to them and sharing their Attorney General, and that the Attorney General is experiences. In some cases, they have to relive those considering the request to look at reopening that particular experiences to share them. For too long, the police and inquiry. other agencies treated vulnerable children and young There were also some comments, not surprisingly, people as a problem. As my hon. Friend the Member about what is being done to hold to account those who for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said, failed so visibly in this investigation. My understanding they referred to them as “child prostitutes”, when there is that the Independent Office for Police Conduct, which is no such thing—there is a child being seriously abused. is rightly independent of the Government, has been in The victims’ voices were not heard, children were left discussions with the Greater Manchester authority and unprotected and predators were left to continue to is scoping a potential investigation. I hope hon. Members abuse those most vulnerable in our society. I want to will realise why the Home Office cannot go much further make it clear that we will not accept that now. Children than that at this stage in commenting on particular and young people rely on both Government and local individuals. partners for safeguarding and support. It is therefore There was also commentary about the iOPS system our duty to protect them from these appalling crimes. in relation to Greater Manchester Police. I understand Their voices must be heard. We must recognise abuse that the Mayor has commissioned Her Majesty’s for what it is and treat victims with empathy and respect, Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services not doubt and suspicion. to undertake an inspection, and we are awaiting the The Government have driven change in the way that written report. We expect it to be published shortly and these crimes are responded to, and it is right that child will, of course, closely consider any recommendations sexual abuse is now prioritised as a national threat. We that it brings forward. are clear that, when victims come forward to report It was partly because of cases such as this that, in abuse, they should expect every effort to be made to 2015, the Government established the Independent Inquiry bring offenders to justice. One point I share with the into Child Sexual Abuse to get to the truth, expose what shadow Minister relates to the idea that resources were 105WH Operation Augusta 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Operation Augusta 106WH reprioritised or investigations ended; it is almost impossible regional network of exploitation prevention officers, to think what could be more important than preventing who are helping local partners to join up, spot the signs children from suffering serious sexual offences. What of abuse and intervene early to safeguard vulnerable could be more important than that? children. It is our priority to ensure that all victims and The Home Office has therefore provided support survivors believe they can come forward to report abuse through its police special grant fund for investigations and get the assistance they need. relating to child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, north That is why we have increased grant funding for Wales, west Yorkshire and other areas. In response to victim support services across the country: in this financial the shadow Minister’s point, we would of course consider year, the Government are providing more than £7 million anyapplication that came forward from Greater Manchester of funding for non-statutory organisations supporting as well. We are changing the way police respond to victims and survivors of child sexual abuse, and in crimes against vulnerable people, including child sexual September the Government announced an additional abuse. As part of this, we have worked with the College £5 million of funding for separate specialist sexual of Policing to draw up a comprehensive package of violence support services, including £1 million towards training to ensure the police are better placed to respond recruiting more independent sexual violence advisers, to child protection issues. We are also funding the who play such a critical part in supporting victims Vulnerability Knowledge and Practice programme to through the criminal justice process. The Government develop policing best practice in response to vulnerability have also increased spending from £31 million in 2018 as a whole. to a planned £39 million in 2020-21 to improve services Yet, as has been touched on, keeping children safe is and pathways for survivors and victims of sexual violence not just the job of the police. We have also changed the and abuse who seek support from sexual assault referral way police and other agencies work together to ensure centres. an effective response in safeguarding children. The Children While we can and must do more, it is important that and Social Work Act 2017 introduced the most significant we acknowledge how far we have come in the years reforms in a generation, ensuring that police, health and since the closure of Operation Augusta and recognise local authority partners within an area work together to the improvements in how police forces and other agencies protect vulnerable children. We have also introduced deal with these crimes. Inspection reports tell us that joint targeted inspections of local agencies’ performance professionals’understanding of vulnerability has improved in protecting children from threats such as child exploitation. and there is now a real emphasis on the safeguarding and Effective multi-agency working is recognised as the protection of vulnerable children across England and foundation for success. Wales. In 2019, the Government launched a new tackling On 4 September 2019, the Government announced child exploitation support programme to help safeguarding an additional £30 million to safeguard children from partners in local areas to tackle a range of threats to child sexual exploitation and abuse, increasing funding children from gangs, sexual and criminal exploitation, for cutting-edge technology and making available the online grooming, trafficking and modern slavery. We best intelligence and law enforcement capabilities, which have already seen some effective multi-agency working, will enable police officers to target offenders and provide such as the Home Office-funded Lighthouse in London. more support to victims. Later this year, the Government This ground-breaking service is based on international will publish a national strategy, the first of its kind, to best practice and under one roof provides child-friendly, tackle all forms of child sexual abuse. Our new strategy victim-centred, multi-agency support to child victims of will set out our whole-system response and how we will sexual abuse. work across Government, law enforcement, safeguarding However, we must go further and deprive predators partners and industry to root out offending. of the opportunity to abuse and exploit our children in I thank the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton the first place. That is why, as part of our efforts to once more for securing this debate. Vulnerable children, prevent abuse and exploitation, we have launched the victims and survivors of these appalling crimes, rely on Trusted Relationships fund. The fund supports local us, both in Parliament and in local communities, to authority-led projects across England, working with represent their needs and ensure they receive the support 10 to 17-year-olds identified as being at risk of child to which they are entitled. As a Government, we will sexual abuse or exploitation, criminal exploitation or continue to work tirelessly across all Departments to peer-on-peer abuse, to build their resilience and strengthen tackle child sexual abuse in all its forms. their relationships with the trusted adults in their lives. Question put and agreed to. As part of that, more than £1 million will be awarded to Greater Manchester for the four-year programme. The Resolved, Home Office has also provided funding support for a That this House has considered Operation Augusta. 107WH 5 FEBRUARY 2020 User-led Social Care 108WH

User-led Social Care example of a local area leading the way. I am pleased that the London borough of Ealing is also taking a lead 11 am on this. Following the local elections in 2018, Ealing Council held a public meeting for local residents who James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to were interested in establishing a care co-operative. That move, led to a founding group being formed, including carers That this House has considered user-led social care. and those receiving care, who deserve our thanks for It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, their valuable work on this matter. The group is currently Sir Christopher. I draw inspiration today from Jerry developing a feasibility study, and their experience, Ndi, a student at Northolt High School who just last particularly of the challenges they face, can help us to night won the Ealing regional final of Jack Petchey’s better understand the barriers that co-operative models “Speak Out” challenge. I am sure that all Members here of care face more widely, and therefore what support is will join me in saying that everyone who took part and needed from national Government. spoke last night should be very proud of themselves. It will not surprise anyone listening to learn that the Social care is in crisis. Some 1.5 million people over feasibility study faces the challenge of growing demand the age of 65 do not get the social care they need. More for care services in the face of inadequate funding. than a third of people who receive local authority-funded However, it also faces challenges with the competitive care or support have to purchase additional support commissioning regime, the current system of Care Quality themselves. In fact, over the past two years nearly Commission registration and the lack of an appropriate 10,000 people have had to approach their local authority Government funding framework. for help after running out of money. That is the result of the Government’s deep cuts to public services since The experience in Ealing shows that councils could 2012, with a total of £7.7 billion taken out of social care do far more if they had support from national Government, budgets. As councils have been forced to narrow the so I will put several points to the Minister. First, there eligibility criteria for social care, far too many people should be a right of first refusal for social workers to are denied the support that they need. This chronic step in and take over failing private organisations that underfunding, alongside a shift to private providers, has provide social care. At the moment, when private hit not only those who need social care, but those organisations face financial difficulties, they are often working in the sector—people who are routinely paid sold on to another private organisation or simply closed below the London living wage or the living wage outside down. Where private organisations are failing, employees of London. should have an opportunity to take on all or part of There are more than 122,000 vacancies in the adult that organisation. social care sector. Care workers are far too often Secondly, we need protection against asset stripping. undervalued, underpaid and overworked. The numbers Mutualised social care services should be asset-locked, providing care informally to friends and family is growing to ensure that assets of all types are locked within the rapidly too; 1.25 million people in the UK, nearly 70% of organisation, which is crucial to preventing asset stripping whom are women, combine looking after young children or demutualisation. Thirdly,we need regulation to support with caring for older or disabled relatives. Nearly 90,000 of co-operative models over for-profit ones. Currently, these care workers provide more than 35 hours of care all non-state providers are categorised as independent, each week, and half are still in paid work. which undermines the ability of care users and their Our social care system is in urgent need of proper families to distinguish between for-profit and not-for- funding and a system that no longer incentivises a race profit providers. The CQC should modify its inspection to the bottom on quality and on workforce conditions, methodology to ensure that the benefits of non-profit which is why, on 16 January, after giving my maiden co-operative models can thrive. Fourthly, local authorities speech, I voted to ensure that health and social care are should be given a duty to promote co-operative properly funded, with an additional £26 billion in real organisations to deliver care in their area. We can learn terms. This extra funding is vital to support the social from the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act care system that we need. 2014, which puts a duty on local authorities to promote Alongside greater funding, we also need to look at co-operative organisations to deliver care in their area. the way that social care is provided, which is why the These steps by national Government would help support focus of the debate is on the key role that co-operative co-operative approaches to social care, putting the people principles can play. Under a co-operative approach to who need social care, their families and their care workers social care, care services should be not-for-profit. We at the heart of decisions about how social care is will never be the caring society that we should be when provided. We must stop allowing private companies to services supposed to help the vulnerable are driven by profiteer while those who rely on social care, and the profit. Services should protect workers’ rights. Those workers who provide it, pay the price. who protect this most valuable and often difficult of services deserve our support and protection, not to be forced on to lower wages and insecure contracts. Services 11.7 am should put care workers and providers at the heart of decision making. The commissioning and running of The Minister for Care (): It is services should benefit from the invaluable knowledge a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, of those who receive and provide care. Sir Christopher. I congratulate the hon. Member for These principles and co-operative approaches to care Ealing North (James Murray) on securing this important are not just theoretical; they are beginning to be debate. I welcome him to his role—I know that he was implemented and developed in places across the country. only recently elected—and hope that he will have a long The Equal Care Co-op in the Calder Valley is just one and enjoyable career in Parliament. 109WH User-led Social Care 5 FEBRUARY 2020 User-led Social Care 110WH

I join the hon. Gentleman in recognising and paying the extent of the issue that we are dealing with. The new tribute to user-led organisations, carers, care professionals funding is on top of maintaining £2.5 billion of existing and the army of incredible unpaid carers working in social care grants. That will support local authorities to adult social care, striving for the best possible care and meet the rising demand, which has been referred to, and support for people across our country.They do a remarkable continue to stabilise the social care system. I often hear job every single day, and they work with great skill and talk about cuts to the social care system, but thanks to compassion. that investment, public spending on adult social care in The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to stress that 2018-19 reached £17.9 billion in cash terms. That is the the sector is under enormous pressure, but he is wrong highest level on record, and since 2016-17 that sustained to say that this is new or the result of Government cuts. investment has enabled spending to increase by 7% over Unfortunately, I am a very elderly lady—he has the this period, so we do need to be up front with the facts. benefit of being a lot younger—and I can recall successive There has also been a much more open and competitive Governments over past decades wrestling with how to market in adult social care. For more than 30 years, fund adult social care. private providers and voluntary sector organisations We have had unpleasant exchanges where adult social have increasingly been responsible for providing services, care was used as a political football, with unhelpful which leads to increased choice and better outcomes for language on both sides of the argument—nobody is individuals. That results in improvements in quality. In blameless—describing attempts to solve adult social January 2020, for example, 84% of all registered adult care issues as a dementia tax or a death tax. In the 2017 social care locations were rated good or outstanding by general election, the Labour party committed in its the Care Quality Commission, which of course is manifesto to tackling adult social care and putting it on independent. High-quality, personalised care and support a sustainable footing and never actually got around to can be achieved only where there is a vibrant and doing it. Successive Governments have wrestled with responsive market of service providers. The role of local this. We have had numerous Green Papers, White Papers authorities is of course critical to achieving that, both and independent papers and, one after the other, every through the actions that they take to directly commission Government has put this in the “too difficult” pile. services for providers to meet needs and through the broader understanding and interactions that it facilitates Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): with the wider market for the benefit of all local people Surely the Minister recognises that, notwithstanding and communities. our need for a long-term, cross-party solution to this The Government want to give people much more issue, it is a fact that more than 1 million people who do choice and control over their care and support, and not receive care today would have been entitled to care user-led, strengths-based approaches will help to deliver in 2010. on our ambitions to achieve better outcomes for all. That is why I am pleased that the hon. Member for Caroline Dinenage: I think those facts are a little Ealing North has brought this debate to the Chamber misleading. We often read about the facts that the hon. today; I really welcome the opportunity to talk about Gentleman cites—the Age UK fact that 1.4 million this issue. I am delighted that we have taken substantial people out there have unmet care needs. In fact, that is a steps to embed person-centred care and support at the little misleading, because it suggests to me that there are heart of our social care system. Personalised care has people out there whose care needs are not being met at demonstrated the ability to improve outcomes and enhance all. A large number of those people are actually self-funding. quality of life, enabling people to take a level of control We do need to have a conversation and to try to build and responsibility that they feel comfortable with. a consensus on how much people should be contributing Fundamentally, it recognises what we all know: a person to their care, and whether they should be contributing is an individual, with their own unique needs, wishes to it at all, but their care needs are being met. However, and opportunities. That is why in the Care Act 2014 we the fact is that one in 10 of the population will have enshrined personal budgets—including user-led, catastrophic care costs—care costs in excess of £100,000— co-produced personalised care and support plans—as and of course that is not acceptable, and we need to find the default model of delivery. It is a bespoke way of a way to address it. There are more than 10 people in meeting their needs and circumstances. this room, and one of these 10 people will have catastrophic Having had this ministerial role for two years, I have care costs, but the terrible thing about it is that we met some of the individuals who have benefited from cannot predict—there is no way of predicting—which personal care budgets and seen the immeasurable impact one of us it will be. That is why we need to work that they have had on their lives. They included one collaboratively, in a cross-party way, to seek some kind incredible lady called Jackie, a former Metropolitan of consensus on how we move forward and address the police officer who was injured in the line of duty, and issue. who had quite extensive health and care needs. She is in Let me talk about some of the things that this a wheelchair and has a whole range of physical and Government have done. We have provided councils with mental health needs, to the extent that she was being access to £1.5 billion for adult and children’s social care blue-lighted to hospital about 70 times a year. By using next year. That includes an additional £1 billion of her personal care budget, she now has an assistance grant funding for adult and children’s social care and a dog, called Kingston. He is quite remarkable and fabulous: proposed 2% council tax precept, which will allow them he understands about 200 commands, which is incredible, to raise a further £500 million in council tax. Let us just and he has changed her life. He is able to predict an think about those sums for a moment. We throw around epileptic fit about 45 minutes before she has one, and he the words “billion” and “million” as if this were pocket can ensure that she is in the right position to be able to change. They are huge sums of cash, which just shows cope with it. Also, without any training, he can predict 111WH User-led Social Care 5 FEBRUARY 2020 User-led Social Care 112WH

[Caroline Dinenage] social worker,we will continue to support local authorities to embed that kind of practice in adult social care. We a diabetic attack about 15 minutes before she has one, will also continue to collaborate with leading—they are and he then brings her the insulin kit. Since having incredible—user-led organisations such as Think Local Kingston, Jackie has not been blue-lighted to hospital Act Personal, which encourages good person-led at all. That shows that, as well as being an amazing practice locally. friend and companion to her,he has had an immeasurable The hon. Gentleman spoke about co-operatives. Under impact on her health and wellbeing. That is the strength the Care Act, local authorities are required to shape of a personal care budget. It is really remarkable. their whole local markets to ensure that they are sustainable Ultimately,our ambition is for high-quality,personalised and diverse and that they offer high-quality care and care to become the norm across the health and social support for people in their local area. Clearly, there will care system. I am confident that we will maintain the be local areas where co-operatives can play a really energy and commitment necessary to meet that goal, important role in the provision of care services. More- but the ambition cannot be achieved without a cultural over, as part of their Care Act responsibilities, local shift to holistic, strengths-based practice. What I mean authorities have successfully worked with individuals by that is shifting the focus to what people can do—their and communities to develop preventive and community-led strengths—not what they cannot do. It concentrates on social care opportunities. the things that really matter to the individual, their We know of course that social care is under pressure, family and their local community.It engages and empowers because of growing demand from the ageing population. people to identify solutions that will allow them to Sometimes I get frustrated because we all talk as if the experience the care and support that they need to live as ageing population is a terrible thing. That people are independently as possible and to fulfil their wishes. living longer is a good thing and something to be Through that approach, social care practitioners and celebrated, but we need to ensure that those additional commissioners can connect people to the types of support years of life are happy and healthy for as long as and community organisations that will enable them to possible, that people are able to live independently for improve their overall quality of life. It is gaining ground as long as possible and that care is there when people across the country and working very well in areas such need it. That is why we are providing councils with a as Wigan, Hertfordshire and Thurrock. £1 billion grant for children’s and adult social care, on Person-centred practice and co-production are at the top of maintaining £2.5 billion of existing social care heart of social work. The hon. Member for Ealing grants. The additional resources will help councils to North mentioned social work, and it comes as no commission care services that are sustainable and diverse surprise that social work has led on developing and and that offer sufficient high-quality care and support applying strengths-based approaches.In 2017 we published for people in their areas. a report, alongside the Social Care Institute for Excellence, The Government have been very clear that fixing the on strengths-based social work, and last year the chief issues with social care is a significant priority. As social worker for adults produced a practice framework my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, the for supporting practitioners. Social workers are unique Government will deliver on our promises: we will bring in working alongside people to consider the totality of forward a plan for social care this year. These are their life and advocate for their freedom, dignity and complex questions to address, which is why we are human rights. They are also key in working with our seeking to build a cross-party consensus, but we have communities as a whole, supporting people to live been very clear that everybody will have safety and independently and to live much more included lives. security, and nobody will be forced to sell their home to To achieve the transformational, personalised care pay for their care. across the country that we want to see, we must work Question put and agreed to. much more collaboratively.Cutting across multiple agencies and professions, social workers undoubtedly play a role 11.19 am in ensuring that that happens. Together with the chief Sitting suspended. 113WH 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 114WH

Beer and Pub Taxation Mike Wood: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. As has been made clear, pubs are much more than just a place to drink.

[JAMES GRAY ] in the Chair Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The debate is about taxation of pubs and breweries. I received an 2.30 pm email from one of the three excellent small breweries in my constituency—it was from Les O’Grady, who runs Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): I beg to move, Neptune Brewery, as well as a taproom there. He employs That this House has considered taxation on beer and pubs. three people, and he makes the point that his challenge I am delighted to have secured another important is the current relief—the taper—and the fact that it is debate covering the brewing and pubs sector in the UK. difficult for him to overcome that barrier in growing his This one is particularly timely because the all-party business. That is a challenge faced by all small breweries. parliamentary beer group will hold its event celebrating Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a strong the beers of the UK in Parliament this evening, to case for pressure to be put on the Treasury to change which, of course, all Members are very welcome. those rules, to enable these brilliant manufacturers and Beer and pubs in the UK are a home-grown employers to grow as they wish to? manufacturing success story. They are represented in every part of our United Kingdom and in every one of Mike Wood: The small and microbrewers of this our constituencies. Some 80% of the beer brewed by country have been one of the great success stories of the this country’s fantastic brewers is consumed in this past 20 years in brewing. They have transformed brewing country. The industry supports almost 900,000 jobs in and beer across the country—both the diversity and the all corners of the country, including more than 1,000 in quality.The small brewers relief scheme that was introduced my constituency. under the previous Labour Government has done a fantastic job in increasing the number of small brewers. Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): I congratulate However, we now need to look at the disincentives the the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, and he is existing thresholds create in terms of growth, expansion absolutely right about the success story of our pubs and and employing more people. For example, Black Country brewing industry. However, does he agree that we have Ales, which is based in my constituency, faces exactly seen far too many pubs close in recent years and that we the issues to which the hon. Gentleman referred. really need to value them as community hubs? Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I Mike Wood: The hon. Gentleman could not have congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important read my mind more thoroughly if he had had a copy of debate.The hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) my speech. and my hon. Friend are exactly right about the importance of the small brewers tax relief. Does my hon. Friend Sir (East Yorkshire) (Con): Will my hon. agree that this issue is about not only changing the Friend give way? shape of the relief curve, to remove that barrier to growth for the really successful craft brewers, but Mike Wood: I had almost answered the previous maintaining the 50% reduction in duty for the very intervention, so I will of course give way. small craft brewers so that they can get a foothold in the marketplace? Sir Greg Knight: I am most obliged to my hon. Friend for giving way, and I congratulate him on securing the Mike Wood: My right hon. Friend makes an important debate. May I amplify the point that was just made and point. I have a feeling the Minister might just touch on ask whether he agrees that the public house is the heart small brewers relief in his response to the debate, because and soul of the local village in many rural areas? the Treasury has of course conducted a review into it, and we are all looking forward to seeing some of the Mike Wood: I would go further than that: in many results of that review—hopefully, we will see them areas, and not only rural areas, the pub is the last before too long. service, and often the last facility, in the town or village. Often, it is not just a place to drink, but also the place Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and with the shop or where people get their hair cut. There Lesmahagow) (SNP): Will the hon. Gentleman give might also be a jobs club or any number of other way? services there. (Henley) (Con): Will my hon. Friend Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The give way? Plough Inn in Radford, which is in the inner city of Nottingham and which is also the brewery tap for Mike Wood: If I may, I will give way to the hon. Lady Nottingham Brewery, is precisely the sort of nucleus of first, and then I will come back to my hon. Friend. the local community that he has described and the landlady, Mel, is a legend. Does he agree with the Dr Cameron: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving managing director of Nottingham Brewery, Phil Darby, way and for bringing this extremely important debate to who says he is worried that if action is not taken on beer the House today. Does he agree that we also need duty and small brewers relief, the price of a couple of common-sense rateable values? The Glassford Inn in pints in a pub will simply not be able to compete with our community is under threat of closure due to the the price in supermarkets for much longer? ridiculous rateable value that has been placed on it, 115WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 116WH

[Dr Cameron] Mike Wood: Again, my hon. Friend pre-empts a later part of my speech. In terms of attracting tourists and meaning that it would actually have to sell a drink to investment into the United Kingdom, beer and pubs are every single person in the village every single night of one of the top three things tourists say they want to do the week just to meet the rates, never mind make any while they are visiting. Of course they want to have fish profit and pay the staff. Does the hon. Gentleman agree and chips. Normally, they also want to visit some of the that common sense is needed in this agenda and that we heritage, whether it is Buckingham Palace or Stratford- must support our rural pubs so that they can continue? upon-Avon. The third thing that always comes up is that they want a pint of proper British beer in a proper Mike Wood: The system of non-domestic rates—business British pub. rates—is fundamentally a system of local taxation that was designed in the 19th century, building on the previous Mr : My hon. Friend is being incredibly poor law. It really does not suit the needs and features of generous in giving way, and I know he wants to make a 21st-century economy, particularly one where so much progress, but will he help me put on record the sheer retail is increasingly moving out of town or on to the scale of the attendance at this debate? Clearly the internet—as yet, nobody has designed an effective virtual Minister would be incredibly popular if only he cut tax pub that can serve a virtual beer that is quite a satisfying on beer and pubs. With that, I will let my hon. Friend as the real thing. We are in a position where our resume his magnificent speech. community pubs are at an unfair disadvantage, as the hon. Lady says, compared with businesses that can James Gray (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Gentleman reduce their liabilities. prompts me to comment that this debate is hugely popular. A lot of Members would like to speak—I have Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Will my hon. some 17 on my list. It is of course up to the hon. Friend allow me to intervene before he moves on? Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) whether he takes interventions, but constant interventions will mean that his speech is very long and that there may be time Mike Wood: I promised my hon. Friend the Member for only five to 10 speeches from Back Benchers. If we for Henley (John Howell) that I would give way to him. keep interventions a little bit under control, we can get more speakers in later on. John Howell: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. One of the things I have been most proud about over Mike Wood: I will endeavour to follow your guidance, the last 12 years is that, at the beginning of that period, Mr Gray. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe we introduced assets of community value. If that system (Mr Baker) makes the point extremely succinctly. I is operated properly, as it has been in my constituency, it would like to pretend that I was the big attraction in this allows a huge number of pubs to become self-owned by debate, which has brought so many Members from all their communities so that they can continue to prosper. parts of the House to this Chamber, but it probably has Does he see that system as a good way forward? a little more to do with the quarter of a million people who have signed the Long Live the Local petitions. Mike Wood: We have some exceptionally good That has resulted in nearly 130,000 emails being sent community-run pubs up and down the country; I visited from constituents to Members of Parliament, encouraging one in Stafford a couple of years ago. It was on the them to support our beer and pubs and to press for the point of closing down and could easily have become kind of support that my hon. Friend was calling for the derelict. However, because of the assets of community Minister to announce. I know the Minister will not feel value system, it was possible for the local community to too confined to his briefing and his mandate; I am sure take it on and see it succeed. We are also seeing such he can go a little off-piste later. pubs in Twickenham, and I have a feeling that the hon. It is not an exaggeration to call the pub an essential Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) may refer to part of British life, but the link between beer and pubs is similar schemes in her own constituency later in the completely inextricable. Seven in 10 of the alcoholic debate. drinks sold in pubs are beer, and beer accounts for more As well creating and supporting jobs, the beer and than half of a pub’s turnover. A thriving brewing sector pub sector is a massive contributor to the economy is intimately entwined with successful local pubs. The more widely and, of course, to the Exchequer, as the statistics, the employment and the economic contribution Minister will know. The sector’s total value to the are extremely impressive—including the £100 million economy is almost £23 billion; in my constituency, our raised for charity every year by pubs up and down the breweries and pubs contribute £30 million to our local country—but there is so much more to beer and pubs economy. Nationally, the sector pays almost £13 billion than figures alone. into Treasury coffers, which I am sure the Minister is The great British pub is one of our most loved grateful for ahead of the Budget. national institutions and is the heart of so many of our communities. We only have to think of the times we Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con): Does my hon. Friend have stopped for directions in our constituencies. Those agree that the pub is not only, as he described, a great directions are more likely to be, “Turn left at the Old financial asset to the UK, but a unique selling point for Cat and then go straight on at the Red Lion”, than to it? People come from all over the world to visit our refer to street names. Pubs also make a huge difference pubs, including our rural pubs, right across the country. on social issues. Loneliness and isolation are among the That is why we must support them by having differential top social issues facing our society, and pubs do so rates. much to help. 117WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 118WH

We have already talked about the many services that Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): pubs offer. When the pub is the last service or facility in The hon. Gentleman may wish to remind his colleagues the town and it closes, it is not only a place to drink that in the Treasury of a helpful precedent that they may goes, but all the services. Visiting Cornwall with the wish to follow. The coalition Government cut the duty wonderful Pub is the Hub charity in 2018, I saw pubs rate on spirits by 2p. At the time, that was expected to that were home to convenience stores, hairdressers and reduce revenue; in fact, revenue increased fairly significantly jobs clubs. Last year, the all-party parliamentary beer as a result. group conducted an inquiry into unlocking pubs’potential, which we should be publishing in the next few weeks. Mike Wood: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. We heard evidence of the social contribution made by Indeed, there is an even more recent example. The excise pubs in rural and urban areas alike, whether that was revenue from beer is up £250 million compared with pubs providing meals for people with dementia and Treasury forecasts since 2017-18. That appears largely their partners, Christmas meals for the isolated and to be down to boosts to beer and pubs following freezes lonely, free meals for older people, yoga classes, literacy in duty in the 2017 and 2018 Budgets. Further action on groups, or parent and toddler groups. Pubs are the beer duty in the Budget would clearly boost jobs and original social network, bringing people and communities investment in beer and pubs. It would also likely lead to together. Unlike some more modern social networks, additional custom, which generates extra revenue. Facebook pays just over 1.5% of its UK turnover in tax; Beer duty needs to be lower overall. Within that, we pubs typically pay about a third. That averages to some need to look at how that beer duty is levied. We need a £142,000 a year a pub to the Exchequer. wider review, first to look at the operation of small A large part of that money is in the form of business breweries relief and whether it acts as a disincentive to rates.The recently announced extension of the pub-specific growth and expansion, and secondly to look at how relief, which knocks £1,000 off the bills of pubs with beer duty can better support our community pubs, rateable values of less than £100,000, will help a huge rather than the “stack ’em high, sell ’em cheap” produce number of pubs—in particular, smaller ones—as will in some off-licences and supermarkets. the 50% reduction in business rates bills for certain Now that we have left the European Union, with the businesses. For pubs, the burden of business rates remains implementation period ending at the end of the year, particularly acute because of the way pub valuations there is an opportunity for a fundamental review of work. Pubs account for 2.8% of all business rates revenues, how duties are structured. I urge the Treasury to look at despite accounting for only 0.5% of rate-paying business how beer duty could be levied at a lower rate for beer turnover. That amounts to an overpayment of £500 million that is likely to be sold in pubs, and particularly when it every single year. Pubs pay more in business rates is levied on draught beer, kegs and casks rather than compared with turnover than any other sector. That is a small-pack cans and bottles. Supporting our community basic fairness issue. pubs in that way, without giving the dead cost of duty Every extra pound on the business rates bill makes it cuts to supermarkets, would make a big difference to harder for a pub to survive, while some sectors of the many of those pubs. economy simply do not seem to be paying their fair Members on both sides of the House will not need share. We need the fundamental review of business rates persuading of the intrinsic value of pubs to not just the that the Government promised in our election manifesto economy but society as a whole. As ever,it bears repeating and a new system that reflects the realities of the that the pub is in many ways synonymous with the UK. 21st-century economy. Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I congratulate The other main tax burden on our beer and pubs is the hon. Member on securing this incredibly important duty, and beer duty remains much too high. It is much debate. Alongside what he said about the economic and higher than in any other major beer-producing country social value of pubs, does he agree that the pub is also in Europe. In fact, someone who bought a pint in each the safest place for drinking to take place, particularly of the five other major beer-producing countries— for problem drinkers? Supporting our pubs has a huge Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium and Poland— benefit in terms of health expenditure too. would still have paid less duty on those five pints than they would on a single pint in Britain. Mike Wood: Further to that, research from Professor Successive coalition and Conservative Governments Dunbar of the University of Oxford suggests not only have taken action to limit the impact of beer duty on that it is safer to drink in moderation in a well-run pub, pubs since abolishing—I have to call it this—the hated but that people who drink regularly and in moderation beer duty escalator in 2013. That has saved pubs and in a local pub are more likely to be happier and healthier— pubgoers millions of pounds, which can be seen in the both their physical and mental health is likely to be change in the fortunes of many of our brewers and better. Although the immediate appeal of the modern pubs. I hope the Treasury will go even further by temperance movement, calling for large increases in offering support for British beer and pubs in next duty to try to reduce consumption, is understandable, month’s Budget, because keeping a lid on beer prices high levels of duty tend to move consumption away helps to keep pubs viable. What is more, taking action from well-regulated and licensed premises to people to limit beer duty increases sends a positive signal to the buying cheap alcohol to consume at home, or in public, quarter of a million supporters of the Long Live the without the protections that licensed premises provide. Local petition, not to mention the 25,000 individual The issue is therefore one of safety, health and public pubs backing the campaign. A cut or freeze in beer duty health. will appear on the Treasury’s books as a cost, but I am delighted to see so many Members present to evidence suggests that keeping costs down for brewers support Great British brewing and the pub industry. I and consumers leads to increased revenue. hope the Minister will hear the messages of gratitude 119WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 120WH

[Mike Wood] when talking about alcohol. A proportion of their export volume is excluded, yet such brewers can still for the action that has already been taken, as well as the obtain the maximum relief. messages of hope and desire for—and even expectation Urgency is paramount, with small brewers warning of—continued support, which is needed to ensure that me in advance of the debate that a further period of brewing in pubs remains viable for many years. consultation would simply lead to even more unintended consequences. For those brewers, this hangover really Several hon. Members rose— has gone on for too long. The upcoming Budget is the Government’s opportunity to support this much-loved James Gray (in the Chair): Order. It will not take a sector, to make the system fairer and to support business genius to see that around 22 Members wish to speak in growth. Long live the local. the 40 minutes or so before I call the Front Benchers, 2.56 pm which would mean around two minutes per speaker. I do not intend to impose a limit, because I think that Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con): It is an honour to that sacrifices quality in favour of quantity, but I appeal serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I had prepared to colleagues to limit their speeches, if they can, to two a speech but will throw it away, as you have 17 speakers; or three minutes, to allow each other in. I call Siobhain you will be delighted with the speech I will read instead, McDonagh. as it is very short and to the point. There has been a 0.8% increase in pub numbers, which has led to a 1.6% expansion of employment in 2.52 pm the pub industry. That sounds very good, but it is all to Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): do with food and town centres rather than our rural Thank you, Mr Gray. I am delighted to be called to pubs. For 55 years I have been an actor touring the speak so early. My only problem is trying to rule out a country, and I am known in most pubs across the lot of my speech, and the important pub puns I had country. My wife is always amazed when we turn up in included in it—there was to be a gift of a pint for those some strange town, and I go into the local pub in the who identified all of them. wilds of Nottinghamshire or somewhere and the landlord says, “Hello, Giles.” My contribution will focus on small breweries and The pub is a feature of our countryside and it is small breweries relief, particularly in relation to the terribly important to preserve it. There is a little village Wimbledon Brewery in my constituency—I cannot imagine near the wonderful town of Stratford-upon-Avon. When why they wanted to call it the Wimbledon Brewery, I first stayed there, 25 or 30 years ago, it had a beautiful rather than the Mitcham and Morden Brewery, but I pub called The Crown. The community would coalesce will leave that to Members’ imaginations. Although the in that pub of an evening. The landlord was responsible; relief is vital, the current system stifles growth and if he saw that old Fred in the corner was drinking too profitability for small brewers, discouraging exports much, he would ensure that he was all right, that he and mergers. For the benefit of Members without small could get home, and that he did not drink to his breweries in their constituencies, let me explain that if a detriment. If Mrs Miggins around the corner had a brewery produces less than 5,000 hectolitres per year, it problem, they would talk about it and look after each pays 50% of the full excise duty of the big breweries. other. The pub was a great centre of the community. At That is to help balance the economies of scale from that time, the village had a vicar, the pub, the village hall which the biggest breweries benefit, ensuring that the and the local copper. Well, the copper was taken back consumer has a greater choice and that smaller breweries to Stratford-upon-Avon because there was no crime in can stay in business. the village; everybody looked after each other. However, the 5,000 hectolitres point is a cliff edge. If I went back after 20 years or so to work again in the production goes above that level, the brewer pays excise Stratford-upon-Avon area, and I went back to the same duty not just on the additional amount produced over village. The pub had closed and been developed into the threshold, but on the whole production. A brewer housing. I now found a place where people were no would need to reach levels of around 20,000 hectolitres longer talking to each other. The heart had been torn to offset the additional tax by the economies of scale. out of the community. It is not about going out and Wimbledon Brewery was in no man’s land, producing drinking too much, because in that pub everyone was around 8,000 hectolitres per year—above the threshold under the watchful gaze of a responsible landlord, who but far below the 20,000 summit. It was therefore had a very good reason to look after his clientele: he burdened with the extra tax, but without the economies wanted his pub to thrive. However, it had gone and the of scale. For a business of that size, no man’s land is village had fundamentally died. simply not an option, and it was forced to fall back People were now buying their cheap supermarket below the threshold, limiting production and reducing booze, going home and watching their high-definition, the staff count from 15 to 10. widescreen televisions. Who could blame them? The In its current form, the small breweries relief has booze is cheaper and the entertainment is superb. If we punished Wimbledon Brewery’s good business practice went back to 405 lines, we would go to the pub again. and disincentivised its growth. The relief has acted as a But no; we have widescreen televisions. People were no barrier to mergers and acquisitions for everyone other longer talking to each other, so people did not trust than the biggest breweries in the industry. Surely a more each other. That is why I support not just a cut in taxes, progressive scale of relief is necessary, aligned with the which we have done—since 2010, a pint is now 14p cheaper industry’s economy of scale, to ensure that all brewers than it would have been—but a differential cut, to are incentivised to grow. Take the Irish relief for small support our rural pubs, which are the centres of brewers—the Irish are always good people to look to communities right across the country. 121WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 122WH

2.59 pm separate debate, and I know we are very short of time, Mr Gray, but I must take the time to criticise the large Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is an honour pub companies and the unfair rents and terms that they to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.I congratulate offer their tenants, which has contributed to the situation. the hon. Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) on securing this most important and popular debate. Post Brexit, manufacturing and exports will be vital in determining whether the UK will be successful outside In the brief time available, I want to make a few the EU. I hope the Minister will take on board the points about the value of supporting and expanding the comment made here today. There will be consensus resurgence that we have witnessed in British brewing. across the House, if he comes up with a suitable formula. The debate is of interest to me on several levels—my interests are very well known. I am fortunate to have the exceptional Castle Eden Brewery in my constituency, 3.3 pm under the excellent leadership of Cliff Walker and Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): I will be quick. I very David Travis. They have provided me with an insight much welcome this debate, which comes in the context into not just quality beer—I hope we will be able to of a great thrust of Government policy towards investing sample it in the Strangers’ Bar at some point— but ineconomicinfrastructure,whichIwholeheartedlywelcome. some of the problems that the industry faces. Equally, we should surely be investing in the institutions As we have heard, British beer is being exported to of our communities, and that should be just as important markets right across the world in traditional markets an area of Government focus. We are thinking about all such as the USA and the EU. In more recent years there sorts of interesting ways that we can do that and about has been significant growth in new regions, particularly new forms of investment in the social capital of our China. Some years ago, before I was a Member of communities. What we have already is the tax regime Parliament, I had the opportunity to visit the huge around pubs and, as we have heard, in many places Tsingtao Brewery in Shandong. Beer is the UK’s third pubs are the absolute heart of our communities. largest food and drink export. The brand of “British Mr Gray, the Devizes constituency is of course the beer”is a global trademark of excellence and innovation, most beautiful part of Wiltshire. We have a whole which we must exploit, support and promote post Brexit. number of brilliant pubs and brewers there. There is the I fully support the points that have been made by great Wadworth Brewery in the heart of Devizes town, Members across the Chamber today. I support the there are Ramsbury ales, and there is a small micro-brewery campaign to reform business rates and freeze beer duty that I visited recently, called Stonehenge Ales, run by a to support our local pubs. I am also a proud supporter Danish couple who came over here many years ago of the Long Live the Local campaign, and I want to because of our culture of brewing and because they highlight the importance of small breweries relief. I am believed in the traditions of English ales and brewing. grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham They have made a tremendous success of that. and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) mentioned that it I echo the points that have been made, particularly was Labour that introduced small breweries relief in around small breweries relief. There is a clear problem 2002—some credit should be given. That has seen some with the cliff edge and a need to smooth the withdrawal success in that we have seen a resurgence of the British of the benefit. Surely any loss to the Exchequer that independent craft brewing industry,with a fivefold increase would follow from increasing the tax relief for brewers in small brewers. would be more than made up for in the growth in receipts as the industry grows. Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Would Business rates are probably the biggest barrier to the the hon. Gentleman agree that, in setting alcohol duties hospitality sector and the role it plays, particularly in and regulating the price of alcohol, which the Scottish towns and high streets. I very much welcome the Government are leading the way on, it is important that Government’s review of business rates, because we need we protect small-scale breweries, craft brewing, high-quality to see our pubs strengthened as the heart of our products and local jobs, including those provided by the communities. Kelburn Brewery in my constituency? 3.5 pm Grahame Morris: Absolutely, and there are a number of measures that the Minister can take. Despite the Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): I thank the hon. success that we are all very proud of within the craft Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) for securing brewing sector, it accounts for only around 7% of the this debate. As the newly elected vice-chair of the UK market, compared with the 88% share of the market all-party parliamentary group for beer, I am pleased to controlled by the big four global brewers. Small breweries be able to speak in this debate. relief has given small brewers the opportunity to compete In St Albans, there are a number of independent with their larger multinational counterparts, but they businesses that do not know if they will survive this benefit from economies of scale, brand recognition and financial year because of eye-watering increases in business huge and expensive advertising campaigns on a scale rates. This Government have seven weeks to save them. that small brewers simply cannot compete with, and St Albans is not only home to CAMRA—the Campaign which allow the big four to dominate the market and to for Real Ale, of which I must declare I am a member—but offer significant discounts to wholesalers. has regrettably also become home to the Save St Albans The other challenge we face across the country is the Pubs campaign and the national Save UK Pubs. More shrinking number of outlets that the brewers have for than 30% of our pubs have a rateable value greater than their products, with the number of pubs falling from £51,000, which means they are not eligible for the around 54,000 in 2012 to 46,000 last year. That is a business rate relief announced in the Queen’s Speech. I 123WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 124WH

[Daisy Cooper] To add to the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Giles Watling), the essence of a urge the Minister to look at that cap again and, as an pub makes it community-orientated. When I think about immediate measure, extend the business rate relief beyond the pub, I think about community ownership through the £51,000 cap for pubs. organisations such as the Pub is the Hub, which provides We all know that the business rates system is broken. services such as libraries. I think of the integral value We all know that it punishes property-based businesses, that it has for rural and urban communities. It is important as well as those successful licensees who increase their to remember that urban communities play a significant turnover, but the implication of that is that our landmark part in the role of the pub. pubs are most at threat—the landmark pubs that draw I want to touch on the economic aspect. We know people into our towns and city centres. They are part of that when we reduce the tax revenues on beer duty we our landscapes and our tourist guides. They are the can get more people into pubs and see revenue rise. pubs that are printed on postcards, that are at the centre Perhaps Members will cast their minds back to the of food and drink festivals, and that host the charity 1600s and the introduction of tea and coffee into this events. They are steeped in our nation’s history and country. The high prices drove people out of the coffee heritage. shops and into the pubs and taverns, and I would like to Let me try to persuade the Minister with a few see that again. I am sure many Members will agree. examples. Sean Hughes is the licensee of a pub called On the essence of localisation, every Member in this The Boot—the war of the roses started on its doorstep. House embraces having a strong local community and a The pub’s rateable value has gone up by 281% from vibrant local economy, and pubs are at the heart of £27,000 to £76,000. The Boot now has to sell an extra that. Perhaps we can encourage further business and 22,000 pints a year just to cover the increase in business attach new businesses to our pubs. Wehave an opportunity rates. It is simply not possible. to do so. The history and culture of our pubs goes back Christo Tofalli is the owner of Ye Olde Fighting to the Romans. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Cocks, which dates back to the eighth century and is Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) recorded in “The Guinness Book of Records” as the could do the Latin; if only I could, but I am afraid I oldest inn in England. It has been forced to close two shall disappoint colleagues. days a week to make savings to off-set the increase in I want to mention three pubs in my constituency. The business rates. The Cock, a grade II listed building, Queens Arms in Brixham has recently fund-raised to dates back to around 1600. Its rateable value is up put a defibrillator outside its own building as a service by 216%. to the local community. The second is the Avon Inn, Let us consider this disparity in a tale of two pubs: which has recently branched out to help host local the Rose and Crown, and the Six Bells. These two pubs, community groups. The third is the New Inn in Moreleigh, both in the beautiful village of St Michael’s, on the edge which has been there since the 1700s and is family-run. of Verulamium Park, are less than 30 metres apart—it Those are all embodiments of community spirit. They takes just one minute to walk from one to the other. are localised and drive the local economy. They are a similar size and, until 2017, the difference in their rateable value was just over £8,000. Since the 3.12 pm business rate review, despite being broadly the same size and practically next door to each other, the Rose and Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) Crown has had a very welcome decrease in its rateable (Lab): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, value, but that of the Six Bells has almost doubled. The Mr Gray. gap has widened from £8,000 to a massive £43,250. The rateable value of the Six Bells is now three times as James Gray (in the Chair): Let us save time and not much as the Rose and Crown. say that. How on earth does the Minister expect that pub to compete, when the Government are hammering its ability Ms Rimmer: Pubs have always sat at the heart of our to do so? They have got to get a grip. They have been communities and our societies. I remember how my dragging their heels on business rates reform for years dad, at the end of a hard day’s work, would go to his and years. We need immediate rates relief to save some local for a pint to enjoy the companionship and relax. If of these pubs, which are at the heart of our heritage, we look back at history, we see how many of our rights and we need wholesale reform of the entire system. originate from people sitting down in the local and planning for a better world: democracy, workers’ rights, 3.9 pm trade unions. All of those had many of their roots in Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to this country in the local pub. Even today, pubs play an serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I thank my important role. They are where we celebrate our success hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) in work, love and life. It is where we cheer on our for securing this debate. If he is successful in his mission, nations in sport and mourn our losses in wakes, raising this will surely be the last time we see him sober. In my a parting glass for those we have lost. constituency and across the country he will be welcome Pubs remain an integral part of the St Helens, Whiston in taverns and pubs. I want to make four brief points, and Prescot communities. We have many fantastic pubs but first I should like to welcome the Government’s across the constituency, including the Cricketers Arms, decision to reduce business rates for pubs across this which deservedly won the 2017 national pub of the year country, and I also welcome the further rate review award, but we have seen dozens of pubs close. Many mentioned by the Chancellor and Chief Secretary. It is local pubs across the country are struggling under welcome news indeed. current taxation arrangements, which makes it extremely 125WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 126WH difficult for local pubs to compete with massive In Nether Wallop, the community has come together supermarkets and large pub chains. People in the UK with a neighbourhood plan and the Five Bells is going pay almost 40% of all the beer duty in the EU, while through the process to be registered as an asset of consuming only 12% of the beer. If we compare ourselves community value. People are optimistic that they will to similar sized nations such as Germany, their beer get a pub that has been closed for seven years back up duty is 11 times lower than the UK’s rate. We need to and running again. Likewise, people in Longparish are ask ourselves why our taxation rate is so much higher. pursuing the same objective for the Plough Inn. Some will argue that it is to discourage people from The challenge is not finding the community that excess drinking: an aim I completely agree with. It is wishes to pull behind its local. It is finding the economic vital we make sure that people drink responsibly. environment in which it can thrive. I respectfully point If we look at the Green Budget published by the out to my hon. Friend the Minister that that is about Institute for Fiscal Studies in February 2016, we see: the taxation of beer, as we have heard this afternoon—I “The current structure of alcohol duties is not well targeted at will not bore anybody with stats again—and it is about harmful alcohol consumption.” business rates. It is about making sure that we have an In fact, because local pubs cannot afford to offer the environment in which the pubs we are hearing about same prices as supermarket chains, people drink excessively this afternoon from all corners of the Chamber have the at home in pre-drink sessions. They feel under pressure circumstances in which they can not only set up, but go to drink as much alcohol as they can before going for a on to thrive. night out at a pub or wine bar, where prices for drinks are higher than in supermarkets, partly because of the 3.18 pm way in which our taxes are applied. Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): Diolch, Mr Gray. Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): Many I am sure many people will offer to buy the hon. independent pubs in my constituency, particularly in Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) a pint after , complain about business rates as well as beer this debate. As a south Walian MP, it will come as no duty. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is also an surprise to Members that I have numerous breweries, important taxation issue? big and small, in my constituency that I know will be Ms Rimmer: Of course it is. We have heard colleagues impacted by the proposed changes to beer duty. talk about it today. Along with rugby and music, pubs and clubs are a If the aim is to raise money for the Exchequer, I agree vital part of our community across Rhondda Cynon with that aim, as taxes are important and pay for the Taf. They were at the heart of our miners’ institutes, vital things our society needs. However, the brewing and today they serve as a common meeting place for a and pub industry is a massive employer, with almost range of people and remain at the heart of our communities. 900,000 jobs across the UK. The loss of those jobs Long may they continue to do so. When Wales plays at would have a major impact on our economy and offset the Principality Stadium, one would be hard pressed to much of the income from the high taxes. We also find find a pub that was not full to the brim of passionate that the taxes are not applied evenly, with wine and fans, full of hwyl, eager to support our team on the turf. spirits’ duty rates per litre of pure alcohol on an almost I promise not to mention the weekend scores. constant decline since 1978, yet beer has largely stayed Although I am lucky to have small breweries such as constant and has gone up in some cases. the Bragdy Twt Lol and the Glamorgan Brewing Company I therefore call on the Government to look at the way in my constituency, I know that they face immense in which we support our local pubs. One way to do it is pressures and tax burdens. We all know that UK beer by improving the current structure of the small brewers duty is among the highest in Europe. It has already been relief. I also call on the Government to implement a mentioned that there is a 5% beer duty on a UK pint. It modest cut in beer duty so that we can help our local is 54p compared with 5p in Germany. For Bragdy Twt pubs. Lol in Treforest in my constituency, where a team of As the hon. the Member for Dudley South (Mike five led by Philip Thomas produce a quarter of a Wood) has said, 250,000 people have signed up to the million pints every year, the duty has a massive impact. Long Live the Local campaign, showing that the British Like other colleagues, I am also concerned by the people want to protect our pubs. Let us take the steps review of the small brewers relief, which has allowed necessary to ensure that our great British institutions do breweries specialising in British independent craft beer not have to call for last orders permanently. I urge the to grow and thrive. If the relief is reduced, or the Government to act. production level lowered, it will make the market extremely challenging for the small breweries that are so central to 3.16 pm the local economy, in south Wales and beyond. Smaller (Romsey and Southampton North) breweries are often denied access to markets because (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for larger breweries are often tied to pub chains, and I am Dudley South (Mike Wood) on securing this debate. aware that some larger breweries are using what we My brief speech will not be a tale of gloom and doom, might call more aggressive approaches, offering incentives but will be about success and Bar SO16, a new pub set to pub landlords in return for buying all their beer up by the community—I went to its opening on Friday through their brewery chain. night. It was incredibly badly timed because it was still I am sure that all colleagues will agree that we need to dry January. The community found an investor and support small businesses that produce beer unique to premises and really pulled behind a new venture in an our areas and heritage. I fear that if beer duty is reduced area that has lost both the Stile and the Stoneham Arms it will be the local economy across Rhondda Cynon Taf in the past few years. So that is a success story. that will suffer. Far from being just about output, small 127WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 128WH

[Alex Davies-Jones] 3.23 pm Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): I thank the hon. Member breweries such as those in my constituency often support for Dudley South (Mike Wood) for securing the debate. local talent and other local companies, procuring their Is not it interesting that it is so well attended, and that services for a range of purposes. Small breweries in we are all in such accord on one issue? I think it will be a Rhondda Cynon Taf are also regularly involved in long time before we find another one on which we are in charity events. As others have said, they make a vital such accord. contribution beyond just their beer production. I shall continue to work ceaselessly with breweries in my None of us has a monopoly on fantastic breweries constituency to oppose any plans to reduce the small and pubs in our constituencies, and that fact signifies brewers relief. It must not happen, if we are to continue the key importance of the issue. The debate, by my our proud heritage of brewing craft beer in Pontypridd reckoning, focuses on two principal issues: one is the and beyond. fairness of taxes that breweries and pubs face, and the disproportionate burden they must support; and the other is the value of pubs. To begin with the second issue, the 3.20 pm pub, as many hon. Members have pointed out, is a venue for solidarity between members of communities— Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): It is a particularly small communities, or communities within pleasure to take part in this important debate. I have the larger conurbations. It is an opportunity for company great honour of representing a constituency with St Austell for the isolated, and it provides opportunities for Brewery at its heart. St Austell Brewery should be of entrepreneurial advancement, whether artistic or in micro- particular interest to us, because it brewed the beer for brewing and other things. Notwithstanding any of those the Long Live the Local campaign. I had the great softer, more pastoral benefits that pubs generate for honour of sampling one of the very first pints that were communities, they also generate £23.1 billion for the produced. I pay tribute to James Staughton, who has economy, which is not to be sniffed at either. for many years been the chief executive of St Austell It seems to me there is something important for the Brewery, and recently retired and stood down from that Government to do. First, they need to admit that there position. He was rightly recognised in the honours list is a problem. By the calculations of the Office for with an OBE. He has been the driving force that has led National Statistics, 11,000 pubs—23% of the entire the brewery’s success over the past 20 years or so, so estate—closed in the past 10 years. I think that we that it now produces the finest beer in the country, would all pretty much recognise that that signifies a Tribute. problem that we need to deal with. We need to take a There are 85 pubs in my constituency. I do not claim collective look at the burden of rates, VAT and duty on to have visited every one of them, although I suspect pubs. I am pleased that pubs in my constituency and that over the past 40-odd years I have probably visited elsewhere in Scotland benefit from the most competitive the vast majority of them. Every one of them is important rates regime in these islands, but that is no help to to the community that it is a part of. As we have heard anyone in England, Wales or Northern Ireland—so from many hon. Members, pubs are about much more there is work to be done there. than drinking beer. They are the heart of our I am not sure whether we should touch on the question communities—important for bringing people together of VAT, but we should touch on duty. In the research to celebrate, commemorate and even, at times, mourn that I undertook to prepare for this speech, I could find together. They are great for social cohesion and good only Ireland and Finland ahead of the UK, in the for mental health. I believe it is possible that one reason European context, for beer duty. I cannot speak for we see mental health deteriorating is that people are not Finland, but I know that Ireland is also wrestling with a gathering to socialise, support one another and build pub closure problem. A yawning gap between the price friendships around a pint. We should therefore recognise of on-sales and off-sales in the UK is feeding directly the important role that pubs play.They are also important into the pressure on pubs. As many hon. Members have for raising money for charities. Many community pubs pointed out already, off-sales products are much more raise thousands or even tens of thousands of pounds attached to the more harmful types of drinking— every year to support local charities. particularly lone drinking. Also, something that I believe I am all for taxing things that do harm. I am all for is now popular with younger people is pre-loading tax on cigarettes. I think it should be higher. My question, before going out. I do not know anything about that, however, to the Minister is why, if we recognise that but it is definitely associated with problems of excessive pubs are so good for and important to our communities, consumption, leading to matters of public health concern, we tax them so highly. According to the statistics that I and to public order concern when things get a little out have,pubs in my communities contribute about £105 million of control. If we do nothing else by coming here, I join a year to our local economy, but they pay £30 million a colleagues in other parties in their pleas to the Minister year in taxation. That is too high. I call on the Minister: to take a serious look at beer duty. I hope it will be let us do all we can in the coming Budget and in the reduced. Many of our brewers need that, and many years to come to reduce tax on pubs. Yes, we can do it pubs will not survive without it. by cutting beer duty. We should do it as quickly as possible by reviewing business rates for pubs; but I ask 3.27 pm him also to look carefully at how we can have a differential duty rate for beer sold in pubs—particularly on draft Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): No area or constituency beer. If we can find a way to lower the duty on beer sold has a monopoly of beer and brewing heritage, but in pubs it would be an important step towards protecting Suffolk comes close. In Adnams, Greene King and pubs and making sure that they succeed for the future. Aspall, it has some of the largest brewers in the country, 129WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 130WH and it has many small ones as well. When I think about close its doors. The Budget would be an excellent the time I spend in my constituency, many of my best opportunity to do so, and I would wholeheartedly moments have been in pubs. Last Friday I was at the support the Government in that endeavour. Kingfisher pub at the heart of the Chantry community, celebrating Brexit. Also, I decided on my flat on the 3.31 pm basis of where the nearest pub was—the Greyhound, a Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I thank fantastic pub. We have a fantastic heritage, but we are my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike struggling. In 2010, there were 75 pubs in Ipswich: in Wood) for securing this important debate. Pubs form 2017, there were 55. That is quite a rapid rate of the iron core of British culture. Whether we are going deterioration in the number of pubs in our town. for a Beck’s Blue in January, sneaking in a swift half on I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes a Sunday with our mates, or soaking up the sun and (Anthony Mangnall) about the importance of urban spilling out on to the pavements at five minutes past 5 on pubs as well as those in rural areas. They are crucial in an idle summer afternoon, pubs facilitate a strong sense Ipswich. There are 1,500 jobs tied to pubs in my of community and act as a social fabric across the constituency, with more than £19 million in wages, so I country. They are indispensable. want to say to the Government that the tax regime in In Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, we which pubs must operate at the moment does not work. are the proud home of the Titanic brewery, which has It is bad for jobs and communities, and for the country. benefited from small breweries relief. Titanic is a local, Earlier this week I wanted, before speaking today, to family-run success story; as its website boasts, the brothers talk to local landlords so I could relay the points that Keith and Dave Bott went from brewing they raised with me directly through the debate. One of “7 barrels to over 4 million pints a year”. them said that he sometimes feels like a tax collector, Is that not the Conservative vision: family, passion and not a small business person. The small business people the entrepreneurial spirit to be the change we want to who own pubs are creative and dynamic. They want to see in the world? How then can it be right that Titanic’s move their businesses forward and strengthen our tax contributions are more than Amazon’s corporation communities. Let us get 150% behind them in the tax, and 10% of what Facebook pays? I want to see Budget. more entrepreneurial spirit. I want this Government to make it easier for breweries, landlords, business owners 3.28 pm and punters. There are three ways in which that could be done, many of which have been touched on already. Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con): To say that First, we need to establish a long-term, sustainable pubs are the pillars of our community and the foundation model for business rates. If a pub wants to expand, or a stone of British culture is a cliché; but it is a cliché for a new starter wishes to get on the property ladder to reason, because it is true. There is much to be said for become a publican, that investment in a site is immediately pubs and what they bring to the country. I am sure that taxed through business rates. Secondly, we must reduce we all have some great memories of being down the beer duty. We have one of the highest rates of beer duty local, although I could not possibly comment about my across the continent, and I want this Government to own experiences. Derby North has some spectacular take advantage of our release from EU regulations and pubs, such as the Wilmot Arms in Chaddesden, with its provide relief to pubs by lowering beer duty. incredible quiz master, Jerry, and the Nags Head in Thirdly, small breweries relief is a fantastic scheme, Mickleover. In London, especially within zone 1, one and I very much support its principal aim. Currently, a would think that pubs were going through a renaissance. 50% reduction in beer duty is offered to all breweries However, it is very different outside the metropolitan that produce under 5,000 hectolitres per annum. However, zone, where pubs are closing in their droves. So many of there is a harmful cliff edge for breweries that go above our communities have lost their heart as a result of that amount. Increasing the threshold for the volume of those closures. beer produced per annum will relieve all brewers of Pubs bring so many benefits, which I could talk some extra cost, while removing a barrier to growth, about until the end of days, really.They combat loneliness; investment and the creation of employment opportunities. in fact, I have a nibble and natter down at our local, the Just under 900 people in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove Travellers Rest, for that very reason. They foster community and Talke are already the beneficiaries of those cohesion and promote social wellbeing, and if somebody opportunities. happens to have one or two too many, there is always a Pubs are so important in Stoke-on-Trent North, friendly face to offer them a glass of water. It goes Kidsgrove and Talke that on the day of recent general without saying that pubs also make an economic election the Foaming Quart was part pub and part contribution. In Derby North alone, there are 52 pubs polling station. As I have said, pubs are the very fabric and 11 breweries supporting 888 jobs. The industry in of our society. I have been busy working hard on behalf my constituency pays about £10 million in wages, £2 million of pubs in my constituency, nominating them for national in investment, and £9.1 million in taxes. However, pubs and regional awards, and I am scheduled to hold my are under a lot of strain as a result of high rents and first pub surgery soon. I am grateful to have had the supermarket prices. opportunity to speak in this important debate, and I The Government are not blind to the issue. They have hope that more help will be offered to publicans and introduced a raft of measures such as the asset of brewers alike. community value scheme, a freeze on beer, cider and spirit duty, and business rate reliefs. The results have 3.33 pm been spectacular: the rate of pub closures has halved. Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I congratulate However, we can do more. We can bring down the the hon. Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) on number of closures even further, so that no pub has to securing the debate. There will be a huge level of excitement 131WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 132WH

[Mr Toby Perkins] As my hon. Friend for Dudley South has said, in many parts of my constituency pubs are the last community and enthusiasm across the publicans’ world when they facility. I support the recent business rate changes but see the number of Members of Parliament who are want them to go much further. I also support relief for showing their support for the industry. Many important small breweries and hope to see the cliff edge removed. points have been made about the overall burden of That cliff edge particularly affects Consett Ale Works, a taxation, the inequities of the business tax regime, and brewery in my constituency located behind The Grey the importance of making sure that small breweries Horse. I look forward to getting its beer behind the bar relief continues to work and acts as an incentive for at the Strangers’ before the summer recess. those brewers to grow into new areas. As an MP, I personally back all local pubs in my It is also important that we continue to put pressure constituency, including by holding meetings and surgeries on the Government regarding beer duty. A lot has been in them. However, I was recently attacked by some local said about the beer duty escalator introduced in 2008, Labour activists for holding surgeries in licensed premises but we should remember that it remained in place for in my constituency. It has come to something in our three years under a Conservative Government. They country when Labour activists are attacking the Tory milked that cow very well until 2013, and the level of MP for North West Durham for holding surgeries in the duty paid on beer is actually more now than it was in Steel Club in Consett. I continue to support the Long 2010. However,whichever side of that argument Members Live the Local campaign, and urge colleagues on both are on, a message is being sent loud and clear right sides of the Chamber to ignore the woke, new-age across the political divide that there needs to be a temperance movement and back their local pubs. I hope reduction in beer duty. that the Minister will pass on our collective pleas regarding Finally, we sometimes overlook the role that taxation the Budget to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. plays in damping down investment in the production of goods that can be exported around the world. We 3.38 pm export huge amounts of whisky, gin and other spirits, Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con): Loughborough and British alcohol producers are also tremendous has 80 pubs and two breweries—I declare an interest, innovators in many ways, including by creating products because my son works in one of them. In my maiden such as the ready-to-drink beverages that are manufactured speech I referred to reducing business rates for pubs, in my constituency by companies such as Global Brands. which I am very keen to do. I am also keen to support If the Government listen to what has been said today, the campaigns to cut duty on draught beer. There is an that will make a real difference to our industry. old-fashioned premise that a pub should be a cash cow for the Treasury, but the choice of cheap alternatives is 3.35 pm now vast, and the impact of the loss of a pub on the Mrs (Meon Valley) (Con): I, too, local community is huge. That pub is often a community wish to speak about how small breweries are taxed. centre, a club headquarters, a friendly society or a Unlike pubs, which are closing, small breweries have meeting place that also just happens to sell beer. We experienced amazing growth over the past 20 years; need to save those local facilities. there were 400 in 2002, but now there are over 2,000. As I welcome the Government’s review of small breweries we have heard, every constituency seems to have one, relief. My constituent Andrew Reed, who founded the and Hampshire has 35. However, that growth has stalled, Charnwood Brewery, emailed to inform me that the and I believe that the Government can help. brewery is a small family business that supplies pubs I look forward to the review of small breweries relief. and restaurants in a 15-mile radius. Although it does That relief is vital but, as we have heard, it tapers away not enjoy the economy of scale of other brewers in the at over 5,000 hectolitres. A brewery that doubles its area, and its annual turnover is below £1 million, it still production from 5,000 to 10,000 hectolitres might incur contributes £300,000 to the Exchequer. He says that a 250% increase in duty. This Friday I will be visiting losing the relief would have an impact: how could the The Flower Pots in Cheriton, a Meon Valley brewery, brewery compete in the local market against national which has told me that this punitive tax tapering means and international brewers? it is unable to expand. Small brewers everywhere face the same problem. This well-intentioned tax regime 3.40 pm benefits small breweries, but it can also hamper their Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): I thank the growth. Relaxing the taper rate could result in more hon. Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) for securing production and employment, leading to higher tax receipts the debate. This is my first experience of a Westminster in the long run. I hope that the Government will consider Hall debate, and it is fantastic that so many hon. giving small breweries that much-needed shot in the Members are interested in beer—more than are interesting arm in this year’s Budget. in sitting in the main Chamber most of the time. That is the state of play in politics. 3.37 pm We have heard some interesting contributions, not Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I least from the hon. Member for Clacton (Giles Watling), congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley who highlighted the fact that he is well kent in many South (Mike Wood) on securing the debate. I will be pubs. I invite him to come to Aberdeen South any time brief. he wants to go for a beer, but the pint is on him. We have over 100 pubs in my constituency, many of I actually have shares in a brewery company, but I do which I have already visited, and I pledge today to have not need to declare them because I have only two. I am visited them all by the time of the next general election. sure that many hon. Members are aware of the company, 133WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 134WH

BrewDog, which is one of the huge success stories of There has been action on that in Scotland, through the north-east Scotland. We have many brilliant local craft introduction of minimum unit pricing, which is expected breweries in north-east Scotland that must be celebrated, to save 392 lives over just five years. We certainly such as Park Brew in Angus and Eden Mill in the support the reform of beer excise duty, but we need to constituency of the hon. Member for North East Fife look at taxation holistically and in terms of public (Wendy Chamberlain), who I saw earlier. We have to health. celebrate the number of breweries in Scotland and The elephant in the room is the fact that great swathes across the UK. of our hospitality sector rely primarily on the work of EU nationals. In Scotland, roughly 11% of EU nationals Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): The work in the hospitality sector. They are crucial to the brewing industry is important to the Scottish economy success of our pubs, hotels and the entire hospitality across the nation. In my constituency alone there is the industry.That is whyScotland needs freedom of movement, Caledonian Brewery, the headquarters of Heineken and why it is incumbent on Conservative Members to UK, the award-winning Edinburgh Beer Factory and ensure that when the Brexit deal goes through, free the International Centre for Brewing and Distilling at movement of people from the European nations to Heriot-Watt University. Does my hon. Friend agree Scotland continues. that if the Chancellor wants to help the Scottish economy, he will cut beer duty? James Gray (in the Chair): The hon. Member for Stephen Flynn: It is an important discussion and I Norwich South (), who was supposed to will come on to that point. I have been an elected wind up for Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, apologises Member in Scotland for a considerable period of time, for being unavoidably detained elsewhere. I am grateful and what I hear from Conservatives there is that the to Stephanie Peacock for standing in. business rates in Scotland are a complete and utter mess. Having listened to this debate, it appears that they are an even bigger mess in England, if the contributions 3.45 pm from Conservative Members are anything to go by. Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): It is an The important point in the Scottish context, as my unexpected pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dudley noted, is that Scotland has the most competitive business South (Mike Wood) on securing this important debate rates in the entire Isles. Indeed, more than 100,000 and on his work with the all-party parliamentary group, businesses, many of them local pubs, are in receipt of of which I am proud to be a member. The fact that the the small business bonus, without which they would not debate is so well attended by hon. Members from both survive. In the Scottish Parliament the Conservatives sides of the House shows how important pubs are to have put that at risk in the last few days. It was only our constituents. Indeed, this month, I have had more after a dramatic U-turn that they decided to side with emails about this debate than about Brexit, so that is the Scottish Government to ensure that the small business some progress. bonus was kept in place. That was right, but it should never have been in doubt. With regard to business rates, Several important issues were raised by hon. Members we in Scotland are well placed to say that we support on both sides, including how important local pubs are. local pubs and local industry, but there is certainly more They are a world-renowned institution that dates back that can be done. to the 11th century. In Barnsley, we sadly lost the Black Bull pub a couple of years ago, which was 250 years One aspect that has not been touched on in enough old. That is just one example, but pubs often have an detail when it comes to taxation is the public health historical and cultural significance.Through the generations, impact. people have gone to sit in the pub and talk about their everyday lives. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The cost to the NHS of excessive drinking is clear. Does the hon. Supporting our pubs makes economic and social Member agree with the sentiments put forward by me sense. The statistics have been rehearsed today. Pubs and other hon. Members that pubs offer a secure method provide more than 600 jobs in my local economy in of drinking? The key is moderation. A landlord can Barnsley. The Acorn Brewery is one example. Across give drivers free soft drinks all night or remove keys the country, they provide 900,000 jobs, £23 billion of from someone who is still standing and talking yet economic value and £13 billion of taxation. unable to drive. When it comes to the message of A number of issues have been raised, and the Minister drinking sensibly, that is the way to do it. has a number of questions to respond to. Labour has called for a radical overhaul of business rates to help Stephen Flynn: The hon. Member makes an important local pubs, and a review of the pubs code and pub point, which many hon. Members have also made. That closures. As CAMRA has pointed out, 18 pubs close a is why we have to take a holistic view. We cannot simply week, which is a tragedy. Once we let them go, we will say that taxes need to be cut without looking at the find it much harder to get them back. public health impact. Notwithstanding that, a pub is a I have a couple of questions for the Minister. What much safer place to drink than the pre-loading we heard assessment have the Government made of the impact of about earlier. closures on high streets? I represent a town. I am not It is important to note that about 22 individuals die saying that pubs are not important to cities, but in small every week in Scotland due to alcohol abuse. That is a villages and towns, they are the hub of the community, shocking figure that none of us can be happy about. so it is important to look at the impact. That also feeds 135WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 136WH

[Stephanie Peacock] across the piece to ensure that we deliver a successful economy, have a competitive business tax regime and into the Government’s loneliness strategy, in which support businesses large and small. That is what the pubs were cited. What assessment has been made in Government have been intent on doing. Our employment relation to that? allowance changes reduced national insurance contributions The crucial issue for this debate is the impact of high by up to £3,000 for over 1 million employers. We have taxation. For every £3 made in a pub, £1 is sent to the cut corporation tax and frozen or cut beer duty in six of Treasury, so surely we need to reconsider beer tax. On the last seven Budgets, which means that beer duty is average, pubs in the UK pay £140,000 in tax, which is now at its lowest level in real terms for over 30 years, disproportionately high. We need to look at that. There and we have repeatedly given support to pubs through are also important issues about public health. While the business rates system. there is a public health impact, they do provide a safe, secure and perhaps moderate area in which to drink Jim Shannon: UKHospitality has said that these and socialise. businesses represent 10% of UK employment and generate £39 billion of tax for the Exchequer. Does the Minister I thank and congratulate all hon. Members who agree that engaging with the sector would help businesses contributed to the debate. I look forward to listening to to survive and to grow? the Minister. Mr Clarke: The hon. Member is an assiduous attender 3.48 pm of Westminster Hall debates, and I am absolutely delighted to say that his persistence will be rewarded. My officials The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Simon and I will always be glad to engage with the sector. Clarke): I join hon. Members in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood). One of the most important issues that came up in the He has done the unusual thing of bringing half of debate was raised by the hon. Member for St Albans Parliament along to a Westminster Hall debate, which is (Daisy Cooper) and my hon. Friends the Members for not only a great tribute to his popularity as chairman of Devizes (Danny Kruger) and for North West Durham the all-party parliamentary group, but a reflection of (Mr Holden): the impact of business rates and the the importance that we all ascribe to this issue, which associated challenges. Since 1 April 2019, eligible pubs affects our communities. with a rateable value below £51,000 have received a one-third discount on their business rates bills. As my I thank all hon. Members who have contributed to hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) the debate. As has been said, there has been a tone of rightly pointed out in his excellent speech, they will great unity on the issues. There is a clear consensus receive even greater support from 1 April as we increase about the centrality of pubs and the beer industry, and the discount from one third to 50% and introduce a new about the solutions that exist in terms of making sure £1,000-worth of relief for pubs with a rateable value we help the sector to thrive long into the future. It must below £100,000. Eligible pubs will be able to claim both be said that asking elected representatives to talk about reliefs. lowering the burden of tax on beer and pubs may be the nearest thing we ever get to motherhood and apple pie Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I am pleased in this place, but it is a serious issue that goes to the about the support the Government are putting into heart of community life, as the hon. Member for Barnsley pubs. As hon. Members have mentioned, they are the East (Stephanie Peacock) said. Pubs are places to meet centre of our communities. I want to highlight a pub in and socialise, and breweries are important regional my constituency, The Pride of the Peaks in New Mills, employers. which this Christmas gave 50 hampers and Christmas In his delightful speech, my hon. Friend the Member meals to elderly people to help combat loneliness. Does for Clacton (Giles Watling) reminisced about his trips the Minister agree that pubs are the absolute heart of to Stratford. As we know, Shakespeare has a line for our communities? everything, including the following from “A Winter’s Tale”: Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend’s intervention draws “a quart of ale is a dish for a king.” attention to precisely the social value that pubs add. His He was, of course, right—we can surely all agree on constituency is a rural one in , and many that. With that in mind, it is a great tribute to the small pubs currently benefit from 100% rural rate relief, United Kingdom that we have over 2,000 small breweries, as well as small business rate relief. Those are the kinds and beer exports accounted for almost £500 million-worth of reliefs that we want to encourage in order to ensure of sales last year. that we support businesses in all areas of the country, not just in our big towns and cities. Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): Does the Minister All pubs will continue to benefit from wider reforms agree that, with a benign tax regime, independent British to business rates, most notably the switch from RPI brewers can be an even greater exporting strength? The indexation to CPI indexation, which took place in April DEYA brewery in my constituency has achieved 2018. That change alone is saving business rate payers extraordinary international strength over the past five over £6 billion over the next five years. More widely, the years. Has the time not come to back independent Government are committed to carrying out a fundamental British brewers to go global? review of the business rates system, and further details will be announced in due course. Mr Clarke: I could not agree more, and that is the The hon. Member for Barnsley East mentioned the spirit of Brexit. Weneed to take advantage of opportunities impact of pub closures on the high street, which is to drive exports. It is something that we want to do something the Government take into account. We have 137WH Beer and Pub Taxation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Beer and Pub Taxation 138WH initiated the future high streets fund, which is designed cut to alcohol duties represents a significant loss in to mitigate the pressures on the high street due to revenue for the Exchequer. The effect of inflation means changing retail patterns. that, in real terms, beer duty has been cut every time that we have frozen it over the past several years. Even James Daly (Bury North) (Con): One of the main in nominal terms, beer duty is now lower than it was in burdens on pubs in my area is the disgraceful expulsion 2012, but we will continue to review all taxes. of Bury football club from the Football League. Anything that can be done to assist pubs in my area and the Grahame Morris: Can the Minister clarify his thoughts rebirth of Bury football club would be an eminently about the cliff edge after the production of 5,000 hectolitres, good thing. to which several hon. Members have referred? Will there be a taper? Mr Clarke: I was genuinely saddened by the expulsion of Bury. I am a football fan myself, and Middlesbrough Mr Clarke: I am a big fan of the Castle Eden brewery. came very close to expulsion from the Football League As a fellow north-easterner, I used to pass it regularly. in 1986. I know the damage that it does to a community Treasury policy is to avoid precipitate cliff edges that and the fear that it strikes. We will do everything we can distort behaviour. Clearly, I cannot pre-announce any to support pubs in Bury and elsewhere in the March of the findings of the review. There are a range of Budget. factors and representations that need to be borne in As hon. Members will know, recent data from the mind, but we will issue clarity to the sector in the next Official for National Statistics are more encouraging, few weeks. showing that the number of pubs in the country has Dave Doogan: I appreciate what the Minister says increased for the first time in a decade. The number of about prior notice, but will he take a look at the pubs employing fewer than 10 people also grew, showing disproportionate effect of tax on on-sales compared that the revival extends beyond the big chains. I appreciate with off-sales? It is unsustainable, notwithstanding the that it is early days, and we are certainly not claiming that issues of public health, public nuisance and community we have reversed all the challenges facing the pub trade, support. but it is good to see data showing that the cumulative impact of the changes we are making is positive. In fact, Mr Clarke: I take the hon. Member’s point. Clearly, pub revenue is at its highest level since 2010, and we want to support drinking in social settings such as employment is at a high not reached since 2001. Those the pub. It has clear societal benefits as well as business are fantastic results for the sector and show that the pub benefits, and the Treasury takes that into account. remains a vital part of modern Britain. The Treasury keeps all taxes under review and is I now turn to future possibilities. The Conservative deeply sensitive to the range of challenges facing the manifesto committed the Government to review the pub sector and brewery sector, which we are keen to structures of our alcohol duties now that we are free to support. The support of all hon. Members present is determine our own priorities outside the European powerful, and it speaks to the fact that this is a decision Union, and the Chancellor will make announcements we need to get right. I know that all hon. Members will about this in due course. The hon. Member for Mitcham keep us under close scrutiny about the decisions we and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) referred to our make. review of small brewers relief, which is obviously really I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley important—indeed, the hangover has persisted for too South for securing the debate. What has happened long. today is a great tribute to his leadership on these issues, and he deserves our thanks. Sarah Atherton () (Con): A few years ago, I owned and ran a microbrewery, so I know some of the 3.59 pm difficulties facing breweries, including the fledgling Magic Mike Wood: I thank all hon. Members who have Dragon brewery in Wrexham. I urge the Minister to contributed to the debate. Wehave had many contributions support the cut in beer duty and increase small brewers from six different political parties representing all four relief. nations of the United Kingdom. They have displayed a rather rare unity of opinion, purpose and passion: beer Mr Clarke: We absolutely want the Welsh dragon to and pubs are a force for good, and they should be be roaring, so I take my hon. Friend’s point. As a serial supported through our taxation system. entrepreneur, she has a lot of experience in this area. We I thank CAMRA, the Society of Independent Brewers, want to ensure that the operation of small brewers relief the British Beer and Pub Association, Long Live the helps to drive innovation and growth, and we will Local and the quarter of a million people who have shortly make further announcements about that through signed up to the Long Live the Local campaign for the Budget process. I want to reassure the hon. Member highlighting the importance of this issue. We have the for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) that the review is opportunity of two Budgets this year, and I hope we not about whether to abolish small brewers relief; it is will have support on beer duty in March. At the end of about its operation and ensuring that it is working the year, we can have the announcements on a new effectively. system of beer duty for a post-Brexit Britain. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Question put and agreed to. Newquay (Steve Double) referred to the 85 pubs in his Resolved, constituency, which I look forward to going round when I come down to Cornwall in due course. He That this House has considered taxation on beer and pubs. referred to the burden of taxation. Obviously, when we 4 pm are doing these things as part of the Budget process, a Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 139WH 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 140WH and Branch Lines Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford Great Western Railway has looked at reinstating the and Branch Lines two peak-hour morning services that were removed, but sadly it has told me that “there is no readily available space for additional stops” [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] but that it has “looked at a number of options including sourcing extra rolling 4.15 pm stock and stopping high speed services that have originated in the west, such as from Bristol or Plymouth. Disappointingly, it has Mrs (Maidenhead) (Con): I beg to not been possible to find a timetable path that will work without move, causing congestion and significant performance delays in the key That this House has considered rail services for Maidenhead, peak period.” Twyford and linking branch lines. On the evening services, GWR told me on 30 January I am pleased to have obtained this debate, because that it was the train services in my constituency—for the mainline stations of Maidenhead and Twyford, and the branch “in discussion with Network Rail about the possibility line stations of Wargrave, Furze Platt and Cookham—are of introducing some additional evening services from absolutely critical for my constituents and local businesses. Maidenhead to London Paddington, which we might Many of my constituents use the train services to access be able to operate from May, or sooner if we can gain employment, particularly in London, which they also approval.” visit for leisure—visiting theatres and galleries and going At that stage, it continued: shopping—and for other purposes. Local businesses “It is fair to say that NR are apprehensive about the performance also rely on the train services to bring potential customers, ramifications of these trains”. employees and other visitors. They all want fast train I can now tell the Minister that this week Network Rail services on those lines. refused the application for those additional services. I have campaigned on this issue throughout my time I have been here before. Network Rail has previously as a Member of Parliament. The good news is that, over refused additional services and changes to the timetable that time, Thames Trains and its successor, Great Western but then relented. Great Western Railway will appeal Railway, under its various names, have generally been against that rejection, and I will appeal, but I urge responsive to the concerns that have been raised about Network Rail to reconsider and to reinstate those two services in the constituency. When there have been trains. That matters not just for my constituents, but for problems with the timetable, they have done their best our local economy, the wider Thames valley economy to respond. and the economy of the nation as a whole. The bad news, I am afraid, is that I cannot set out that rosy picture today,because the service has deteriorated. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): The right Nick Brace, a constituent of mine, said that the most hon. Lady is making some excellent points on behalf of frustrating thing is that her constituents. The railway links benefit not only “for much of 2019 GWR had this all sorted—the right number of Maidenhead but my Slough constituents. The western trains, in the right format mostly running to time. And it has all rail link to Heathrow, a four-mile link between Slough gone down the pan with the new timetable.” and Heathrow, would benefit our two sets of constituents The key issue is not the timetable, but the reason behind and people in the south-west and west. The Welsh it: the introduction of Crossrail. Government are also in favour of it, because of the Before I address that, I will set out clearly for the huge boost to our economy and the decarbonising of Minister the nature of the problems that my constituents our transport. Does she agree that it is about time that currently face: fewer fast trains, less reliability and we delivered on this, given that the Government committed significant overcrowding. Great Western fast trains have to it in 2012? We hope that the Minister will give us been cut from the timetable during the morning and some good news about sufficient and solid performance evening peak hours to provide more long-distance services, progress on this matter. which has had a significant impact on my constituents. I will share some examples of the complaints I have Mrs May: The western rail link to Heathrow has been received from constituents. One said: an issue throughout most of my time in Parliament. It “Morning and evening rush hour fast trains to/from Paddington has long been talked about, plans have been drawn up have been massively reduced. For example we have gone from fast and people have looked at it. It has overwhelming trains at 8.02, 8.06, 8.16 and 8.32 to only two—8.02 and 8.32. The support from business, different constituents and different intervening trains have now become 35 minute trains, which political parties locally. It is something that global means London commuters don’t use them.” Britain would definitely benefit from having. I certainly Another said: support the hon. Gentleman’s proposal about the “Under the original timetable between the times of 07.40 and importance of that rail link. 08.30, there are three trains…that take 30 minutes or less to I want Network Rail to reconsider Great Western’s Paddington. From December 15th, there will be just one fast train application for two additional evening services and to within this time period—the 08.02. The fast train before that will reinstate evening peak-hour services to London Paddington. be 27 minutes earlier, leading to a huge bottleneck of commuters.” I also want it to work with Great Western on the On the evening services, a constituent said: possibility of bringing back services in the morning “Most crucially is the cancellation of the two peak evening fast peak hours. trains to London Paddington. These two peak trains—the first a 4.42pm and the second at 5.48pm—take approximately 21 minutes Not only has the reduction in the number of fast and represent a significant difference from the 39 to 47 minutes services had an impact on my constituents, but the being introduced as part of the new timetable.” service has sadly deteriorated. Again, I quote a constituent: 141WH Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 142WH and Branch Lines and Branch Lines “The services that have been impacted the most are the 7.02 and Minister with details of those two issues, and I hope 7.07 direct services which are now the only direct fast trains to that he will be able to instruct officials to look at the Paddington during the 6.40-7.30am ‘super-peak’”, proposals seriously and favourably. and the reliability of those services “plummeted from 96% and 93% respectively in the month leading John Howell (Henley) (Con): My right hon. Friend up to the timetable change to just 74% and 37% post the timetable mentioned the problem at Twyford. Part of that originates change”. with people from Henley driving to Twyford to get the That included a significant number of cancellations. trains through. Will she accept my enthusiasm for joining This is simply not good enough. her in getting the car parking? Lack of services and cancellations have led to the Mrs May: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It other problem that my constituents suffer from: significant is as important that we ensure services on the branch overcrowding on the trains, including safety issues on line, and that those of his constituents who wish to the platform. Constituents report that they often cannot come to Twyford to use its services directly are able to get on the 8.02 train from Maidenhead because there is park. That would also be in the interests of my constituents simply no room. That service used to start from Twyford who live in the Twyford streets that those individuals and a good number of seats used to be available; it now would otherwise be parking in. comes from Didcot Parkway, and when it gets to Maidenhead it is just not possible to get on the train, Those are issues with the current service, but I will even to stand. That causes significant problems on the now come on to the fundamental problem underlying platform, and Great Western has had to employ security the timetable change and the reduction in the number of guards on the platform because of problems with fast services from Maidenhead and Twyford: the overcrowding. That is a further issue that my constituents introduction of Crossrail. When it is fully running, it suffer from. will benefit those of my constituents who want to get on a train at Twyford or Maidenhead and to sit on it as it Sadly, I understand from Great Western that some carries on through London, perhaps even to Canary problems with cancellations and carriage reductions Wharf. That might be a benefit. However, for those who were caused by a number of fatalities on the line. Those do not want that—for those who want a fast service to fatalities are tragedies, and our hearts go out to the Paddington, for example—Crossrail is not the answer. families and friends of all those concerned, but those My constituents are being asked to forgo a service that cannot account for all the problems in the service that takes 20, 21 or 22 minutes to Paddington, on a train my constituents suffer. where they might get a seat, depending on the time of I have talked about Maidenhead and Twyford in the train, and that has toilets. Instead they will get on a particular, but constituents from Wargrave, Furze Platt train that takes 45 minutes to get to Paddington, with and Cookham on the branch lines also want to connect fewer seats and no toilets. with the fast services into London. Indeed, I see that my Let me give a bit of context. Maidenhead and Twyford hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) is are two of the top 10 busiest stations in the Thames present, and his constituency is at the end of one of valley and Berkshire region—Maidenhead is the fourth those branch lines. They, too, are impacted by the busiest and Twyford is the 10th. Both are part of a problems on the mainline services. The service problems dynamic economic area that hosts thriving businesses, need to be fixed. Network Rail needs to allow the extra including the headquarters of international businesses. evening services. It needs to work with Great Western They are not the backwater at the end of a metro see if the morning peak services can be reinstated. service. Another possibility that would help my constituents I was deeply concerned when I read the letter from is an expansion of the fleet, to increase capacity. I ask Great Western, which stated that it had always been the the Department for Transport to work with Great Western intention of the industry that the “main” provider of on the possibilities for increasing the rolling stock, such services from Maidenhead and Twyford—well, for all that extra carriages could be put on the services. That the stations between Reading and London—would be would allow greater space for my constituents to use. Crossrail. That was never made clear, but it absolutely Other improvements to help my constituents would confirms the fears that I always had when the Crossrail include better access to the platforms at Maidenhead, project first started, which was that at some stage the to help with the congestion in the subways and at the Government might turn around to my constituents and entrances and exits. That needs funding. say, “We want to remove the mainline services. You can I noted in Prime Minister’s questions today that my just be part of a London metro service.” My concern right hon. Friend the Prime Minister,answering a question was exacerbated when my right hon. Friend the Member from another of our hon. Friends on railway infrastructure, for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), when indicated that there was a significant amount of money Mayor of London, suggested that the stations in my that the Government could spend on railway infrastructure. constituency should come under the complete remit of I am afraid that I commented to my neighbour on the Transport for London, as part of the London metro Benches that that meant, I hope, that the Minister will services. I rejected the idea then, and I reject it now. be able to agree to the millions of pounds necessary for The industry should not be planning for Crossrail to the infrastructure changes at Maidenhead, and indeed be the main service provider for my constituents. The for more car parking, which is paramount at Twyford. demand of my constituents—their choice of service— On a Saturday in Twyford 10 days ago, when I was should determine the service providers for their stations. doing my street surgery, that was the single issue that The attitude that the industry will decide what sort of came up time and again on the doorsteps. Again, it trains people can get just confirms the view that I have needs support from the Department. I will write to the had for too long—I had it when was in 143WH Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 144WH and Branch Lines and Branch Lines [Mrs May] from initiatives brought forward from a former regime. I hope my right hon. Friend will forgive me if I tell her place and, sadly, I think there are those in the railway things she already knows, but they are useful for the industry today who think like it—which is that some public record. She is right to mention her constituents’ people in the rail industry enjoy playing trains and do issues with fast trains since the timetable change. I was not want to think about passengers. But passengers are not aware of the process that she outlined behind the the key. Yes, in future some of my constituents may scenes directly with Network Rail and the refused choose to use Crossrail, but that must be a choice. application—I will come back to that. Those who choose to use fast services must have those To give an overall picture, let me reassure my right fast services available. hon. Friend that the Government are investing in record I urge the Minister to ensure that the Great Western levels of rail funding to deliver the biggest rail modernisation franchise continues to provide fast services for Maidenhead programme for over a century—something that she set and Twyford on the main line, and not just the principle off. She mentioned that we are spending £48 billion of fast services; there has to be a sufficient number of between 2019 and 2024 to improve rail services for services at the right times, with enough seats so that passengers and freight customers, while maintaining people can actually get on the train. We want services to very high levels of safety and improving reliability. We be restored at least, and enhanced at best. Some might are investing over £5 billion in the Great Western route, say that it is natural for me, as a local Member of including £2.8 billion on electrification to deliver better Parliament, to stand up and say that for my constituents, services, new trains and thousands more seats. That but it matters beyond my constituency. Actually, some programme has provided 4,900 extra seats into London people using the services in Twyford and Maidenhead in the peak, and a 40% increase into Paddington in the are not from my constituency, as we just heard from my morning peak. The modernisation of the Great Western hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell); main line is improving over 100 million rail journeys there will also be some from the constituency of my each year, stimulating economic activity and growth, as right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John she rightly outlined, from London through her constituency Redwood), and others who come to those stations to and further on into the Thames valley, the Cotswolds, use those fast services. the west country and south Wales. I am aware of the Some of my constituents have already started to drive importance of her words. to London instead of using the trains, because of the A few words on Great Western Railway’s general reduced service. How does that help our 2050 climate performance and improvements are probably needed change target? We want more people to use the trains, here. We are seeing the benefits of investment. GWR’s but we will not achieve that if we reduce the services. We punctuality over the last year has been much better than want the country’s economy to thrive. It is right to level in previous years. Since it had the recent issues, it has up across the UK—that is what the modern industrial put a comprehensive performance improvement plan in strategy,which was introduced when I was Prime Minister, place, and performance has improved substantially over is about. But levelling up does not mean reducing the recent months. The measure of punctuality as a moving vibrancy of a key part of our current economic powerhouse. annual average was 89.4% in period 10, which ended on Train services to Maidenhead and Twyford and the 4 January 2020, compared with 83.1% in the previous linking branch lines matter to my constituents, our year’s period. Most four-weekly periods since December environment and our economy. 2018 have improved. That performance has been achieved I urge everybody involved—Great Western, Network with a timetable change on the Great Western route in Rail and the Department for Transport—to do everything December 2019, which was the biggest since the 1970s. to ensure that my constituents continue to have the The enhanced timetable introduced in December last train services that they need. We must continue to see year reduced most journey times on intercity routes and people using those trains, to bring people from Maidenhead added additional local services in the south-west. We and Twyford to businesses in London, and from London have improved passenger compensation; GWR introduced to work in businesses in Maidenhead and Twyford, to delay repay arrangements on 1 April last year. continue to maintain our thriving economy. My right hon. Friend is right to outline a number of issues. Some of the delays that she highlighted were 4.33 pm caused by fatalities on the railway. When I inherited this job I did not quite comprehend that across the network, The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Chris one person dies every 31 hours. We are working ever so Heaton-Harris): It is a pleasure to serve under your hard across Government and the industry itself: we chairmanship for the first time, Sir David. I promise to have trained more than 20,000 people, with the help of be very, very good and stick to time. I thank my right Samaritans, to try to intervene at an earlier stage. hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) Hundreds of lives have been saved by people who have for securing this debate on rail services for Maidenhead had that training at stations. It is a shocking statistic, and Twyford and linking branch lines. It has been an and it causes unbelievable problems for grieving families, informative debate, and I will address as many of the drivers who have been affected and the whole system. issues that she raised as I can, as well as those raised by We are truly working on that. She is right to say that other hon. Members. nowhere near all the delays are caused by that, but it is a Forgive me for being slightly nervous answering my significant issue. former Prime Minister in a debate in this fashion. A lot Passenger satisfaction with GWR in the spring 2019 of the things I will talk about—the positive nature of rail passenger survey was 87%—the highest ever for the our investment plans for our railways; the focus on franchise. The national score was 83%. There are a few passengers that we are demanding from our railways—stem improvements going on at Maidenhead station, as my 145WH Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford 146WH and Branch Lines and Branch Lines right hon. Friend knows, most of which are due to be Chris Heaton-Harris: I will happily give way to the completed by the middle of 2021. They are being carried hon. Gentleman, but I give way first to my right hon. out by Network Rail and are due to be completed by the Friend. time the Elizabeth line opens. They include improvements to the ticket hall, a new lift to platform one, extended Mrs May: I am grateful to the Minister for recognising platforms for longer trains, new platform canopies to the point I made about the balance between Crossrail accommodate overhead line equipment, new signs, help and Great Western, but the point is that there needs to points and customer information screens and CCTV. be a choice for constituents at Maidenhead so those There is a comprehensive improvement plan for the who want a fast service can still get a decent fast station. Her constituents may well have items on their service—and a good number of them. The danger is shopping list of station improvements that I have not that it sounds as if the industry—I hope the Department mentioned. In the Department’srail network enhancement is not thinking this—is pushing my constituents towards pipeline we are only at the beginning of control period 6, Crossrail services, and Crossrail services alone. I want as it is called in the industry, so further enhancements to ensure that they have a choice and that there are still can come from that. fast services. I also want semi-fast services on Crossrail. We are making improvements to the Maidenhead to Marlow branch line. GWR is undertaking a study, with Chris Heaton-Harris: I completely hear what my local enterprise partnership support, of options for rail right hon. Friend says, and I hope that I will get to infrastructure at Bourne End. A key aim is to enable a address that point properly in a moment. half-hourly through service between Marlow and Maidenhead, in line with the frequency of other Thames valley branches. If initial studies show that scheme to be Mr Dhesi: On increasing choice, and further to my potentially successful, it will need to be progressed earlier intervention, I hope the Minister will give us through our pipeline process. That is the usual process some good news about the western rail link to Heathrow. for enhancements that will end up with Government investment. Chris Heaton-Harris: Time is quite tight. I would like My right hon. Friend rightly highlighted concerns to address in more detail what my right hon. Friend has about the balance between Great Western Railway and said, but may I just say that if I do not cover all the TfL Rail services at Maidenhead and Twyford. The issues she raised, I will write to her with a much fuller current balance was developed with Crossrail in mind. answer? With the delay to the tunnel, it has been necessary to In answer to the hon. Gentleman, I am told—he accommodate the services in an increasingly busy kindly told me beforehand that he would raise that Paddington station, which has caused some issues. In issue, so I was able to check with my officials—that managing the overall timetable, compromises have been Network Rail’s application for a development consent necessary to achieve a balance between acceptable order is expected in summer 2020. That will be the next performance and what passengers at each station would major milestone for that project, which we are keen to like to see. progress. In December 2019, TfL Rail took over the running of I have just a minute left, so let me conclude by saying stopping services between Paddington and Reading. that I will write to my right hon. Friend with more That is another crucial step forward in the delivery of detail about some of the issues she raised. The Government the Elizabeth line, which will transform rail transport are investing billions of pounds in the rail industry. As I across and into central London. When the Elizabeth mentioned, when the Elizabeth line fully opens in 2022, line fully opens in 2022, it will increase rail capacity in it will significantly increase rail capacity in London and London by a massive 10% and carry up to 200 million probably increase demand from Maidenhead too, with passengers a year, with passengers at Maidenhead—I the changes in service it brings. However, I will happily know my right hon. Friend was not sure how keen her go back to my Department and contact Network Rail constituents would be about this—able to get a train about GWR’s application for the reinstatement of fast directly to Canary Wharf in 55 minutes and to Tottenham trains, which I did not know about. As always, my right Court Road in 40 minutes. hon. Friend represents her constituents with passion Mrs May rose— and vigour, and I promise not to drop this ball on her behalf. Mr Dhesi rose— Question put and agreed to. 147WH 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 148WH

Release Under Investigation changes to bail introduced by the Policing and Crime Act 2017. In London, for instance, 67,838 people were released on bail in 2016-17. In 2017-18, that number fell 4.44 pm to 9,881, yet the number of people released under Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): I investigation in the same period was 46,674. That indicates beg to move, that RUI is being used to replace bail. The checks and balances of the bail system are being swept away by a That this House has considered the use of release under investigation. system that has neither. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, The picture is incomplete, because only 20 of the Sir David. I am grateful to all Members who have come 44 police forces in England and Wales have released along to this debate about a dangerous situation that data on RUI. However, despite the patchy data, a clear has arisen in our justice system—a situation that poses pattern emerges. For instance, in Nottinghamshire, the a threat to both victims of crime and those who stand Thames valley and Cheshire, as in London, the number accused of committing them. I speak, of course, about of people on bail has plummeted, while the number the use of release under investigation. released under investigation has skyrocketed. Worryingly, the Bar Council estimates that the number of offenders It is ironic that a lot of attention has been paid suspected of violence against people or of sex offences recently to the dangers of early release; release under who are released under investigation has risen from investigation poses at least as many questions, if not 1,300 in 2016 to 27,000. more, but it has received far less attention from the Government and the media. Unintended consequences and austerity have combined to create a dire situation. Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Rather than helping serve justice, RUI hinders justice The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. Is not and puts victims of crime in danger. It is creating a the real rub that because of the exchange in effect of situation in which justice delayed is becoming justice bail for RUI, two safeguards are lost? The first is the denied. However,there are some straightforward solutions, protection of the accused in relation to the review and I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response process and time limits that go with bail and the ability and reaction to them. I will start by explaining the to argue a case, and the second is the protection for the current use of release under investigation and outlining victim, who cannot have, for example, non-contact or the problems surrounding it for victims and suspects. I address conditions attached? There is also, in terms of will then outline suggestions by the Law Society and the general public protection, the risk of reoffending. Is Bar Council for improvements in the system. that not what Assistant Commissioner Ephgrave meant when talking about the unintended consequences? The first important point to make is that being released under investigation is different from being released on police bail. When a person is released on bail, they are Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Member makes an subject to certain conditions. For instance, they may be excellent point. It is the loss of those safeguards after required to live at a particular address, not to contact the Policing and Crime Act introduced RUI, in effect to certain people, to give in their passport so they cannot replace bail, that I am highlighting in my speech. It is leave the UK, or to report to a police station at an easy to understand why this has happened: huge reductions agreed time—perhaps once a week. With release under in police and Crown Prosecution Service resources under investigation, the situation is dramatically different. austerity make it extremely difficult for evidence to be The accused is released with no time limit—it could be collected within the timeframes imposed by bail conditions. for weeks, months or years—and is not subject to any conditions at all. That means the accused is free to James Daly (Bury North) (Con): I am a former contact anyone, including their alleged victim, and to criminal legal aid defence solicitor, and in preparing for go anywhere, including leaving the UK. It also means the debate I spoke to a number of colleagues still that those who are falsely accused can be left in a state involved in the area. They say that people can be in of limbo for years, not knowing whether they will stand the RUI process for more than 12 months, but from the trial. start, when a statement is taken by the police, to the end, 12 months later, the statement and evidence are the John Howell (Henley) (Con): I am listening intently same—nothing happens between the two dates. Therefore, to the hon. Gentleman. In the Thames valley, the number a charging decision could have been made right at the of people on police bail dropped to 379 in 2018, while start rather than after a prolonged wait. I would welcome the number on RUI increased to more than 11,000. the hon. Member’s comments on that. Police bail just is not being followed. Does he share my concerns about that? Bambos Charalambous: I agree with the hon. Member, who is entirely right about the taking of the statement, Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely which provides the potential for charging early on. right. I will come to that point later. The use of police However, there is an issue with collecting digital data bail has dropped dramatically, and the use of RUI has held on phones and other devices, which may need increased exponentially. That is partly because police investigation. I will come to that. bail is out of date, but I will come to that. Decreasing police resources make it increasingly difficult As I said, justice delayed becomes justice denied. to complete investigations within a 28-day period as Before we consider all the implications of those stark required under bail. When introducing RUI at Second facts, let me draw attention to the huge increase in the Reading of the Policing and Crime Bill, the then use of release under investigation. All evidence suggests Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead that the use of RUI has expanded massively since (Mrs May), said: 149WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 150WH

“In the case of pre-charge bail, it is apparent that a significant are essentially left in limbo for long periods—sometimes number of individuals have spent an inordinate amount of time more than a year—with no updates or no indication on bail only to end up not being charged or, if charged, found not from the police about if or when the case will progress. guilty. Of course, the police and prosecution need time to assemble and test the evidence, particularly in complex cases, before coming I recently spoke to a barrister in my constituency who to a charging decision, but we need to recognise the stress caused said she has a client who stands accused of serious when people are under investigation for prolonged periods, and sexual violence along with others. The allegation was the disruption to their lives where they are subject to onerous bail made within 24 hours of the incident in 2017. All the conditions.”—[Official Report, 7 March 2016; Vol. 607, c. 45.] suspects were arrested and interviewed within a matter However, the added time flexibility in the justice system of weeks, and they were all released on RUI. The given by release under investigation is coming at a investigation continued, but the defendants were not dangerous cost. The available data indicates that tens of charged until the beginning of 2019. The trial has been thousands of dangerous individuals are being investigated fixed for a date in 2020, almost three years after the for a crime under no conditions and with no time limit. allegation was made. There can be little doubt that both Victims can be targeted again by a perpetrator, and the complainant and the defendants will be affected by some case studies demonstrate that that is happening. that significant and serious delay. The super-complaint from the Centre for Women’s Justice detailed case studies of victims of domestic Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I congratulate violence and rape. A woman in Yorkshire reported her my hon. Friend on drawing our attention to this matter. ex-husband for repeatedly raping her during their 13-year He is eloquently showing why RUI is almost totally marriage. He was released by the police after interview failing to achieve anything. Has he worked out what it is with no conditions. He forced his way into her house at intended to achieve? From what he has said so far, it 2 am, held her hostage for five hours, cut her with a appears simply to be a way to take pressure off the broken glass and tied her to a table. police as a consequence of their not having the resources to investigate crimes. The Law Society has also uncovered examples. A solicitor’s client, who had been arrested for rape and Bambos Charalambous: My hon. Friend makes an bailed, was accused of a further sexual offence against excellent point. I think that was the intention. At the the same complainant. They were placed under RUI for time, there were significant cases where bail was constantly the original rape accusation due to bail not being extended. extended, so it was designed to allow the police to Let us consider that for a moment: an alleged rapist is investigate further, but it has had an adverse effect and left entirely free to contact, intimidate and even attack needs to be reformed. their victim again. That is an utter failure of the system. Here is another example: an individual in the west In another case study, my constituent said that she midlands was arrested for murder and then placed on has a youth client who has been subject to RUI for more bail, but after the bail expired they were placed under than 15 separate investigations. It has not been possible RUI. Again, a potentially extremely dangerous individual to find out the details of each RUI or the status of the is left entirely free to commit a crime or intimidate investigations. Accordingly, her client could end up witnesses. being charged after he turns 18 in relation to allegations that date back to when he was 16. If that happens and How can that be acceptable? I argue that it is not. The he pleads or is found guilty, the court will not be able to bail system is not perfect by a long stretch, but allowing impose any youth sentences such as referral orders or possibly tens of thousands of dangerous criminals to be youth rehabilitation orders. Under the law, we have an entirely free to reoffend before a trial is dangerous— important principle of innocent until proven guilty. It is especially for the victims of domestic violence. It is a not reasonable for suspects or victims to have to put up sad but known fact that virtually all domestic abuse-related with such delays. Again I repeat: justice delayed becomes crimes are of a repeat nature. It is therefore essential justice denied. that bail conditions are used to safeguard victims while an investigation is ongoing, yet the big reduction in the Data from police forces that have provided it shows use of bail and the huge increase in RUI means that that the average time people are subject to RUI is highly dangerous offenders are released while investigations shockingly long, ranging from 114 to 228 days. There are ongoing. As Women’sAid points out, there is absolutely are cases where RUI has gone on for years. Let us pause nothing to stop highly dangerous domestic abusers for a minute and consider the impact of that on suspects— contacting their victims or going to their homes. let us remember, they remain innocent until proven guilty. They are left unaware of what is happening with Again, it is clear that part of the problem relates to a their case, whether they remain a suspect or whether the severe lack of resources and cuts. Because the initial police are even investigating their case. Such uncertainty bail period is only 28 days, an extension must be approved creates enormous stress, which can impact on personal by a superintendent. That procedure imposes a big and family lives as well as employment. administrative burden on police forces, who, it seems, The Law Society has unearthed case studies that therefore avoid using bail altogether and instead release illustrate that. In one case, an elderly man was interviewed suspects under investigation. Unless the police are given about allegations of sexual abuse in a care home in sufficient resources to investigate crimes, the use of RUI 2015-16 and released under investigation. He received will continue to spiral. no updates on the case despite five letters from his It is clear that RUI is creating a situation where solicitor to the CPS. The man, now aged 82, was finally vulnerable victims may be made more vulnerable and told at the start of June 2019 that he would not be their lives placed in danger, but, looked at from the prosecuted. Unsurprisingly, the length of the process other side, its use is also grossly unfair to those accused placed extreme strain on the man and his wife, who is of committing a crime and yet to be found guilty. They seriously ill. 151WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 152WH

[Bambos Charalambous] and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, to say that the use of RUI must be proportionate? If an offence were of the As I said at beginning of the debate,some straightforward nature that it would attract unconditional bail, RUI changes to the system could be implemented. I am glad might be a convenient way forward, but it is almost that the Government are embarking on a review, and I inconceivable that people charged with violent or sexual was heartened to hear that they today agreed to commence offences would be released on unconditional bail. In their consultation on pre-charge bail. It is pleasing to such cases, there would normally be a non-contact see that, in the consultation document, they recognise condition or a condition of residence—something of the impact of longer investigations, the need for better that kind. It would be simple to take those offences resourcing and the need for regular updates to victims straight out of the system and go back to bail, to the and the accused on RUI. I would be interested to know benefit of everybody. more about their proposed new framework following the consultation, and I hope that my speech today is Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Gentleman makes considered part of that consultation. an excellent suggestion. I hope the Minister takes note of that and that it is fed into the consultation. James Daly: Does the hon. Gentleman feel there is Finally, it is vital that where RUI is used, some any merit in going back to the system that I well conditions can be imposed. There should be a mechanism remember—of giving the custody sergeant the right to for knowing where suspects are and for preventing them charge for certain offences? The question, which the from being in contact with alleged victims and witnesses. hon. Gentleman is eloquently putting across, is about All parties should kept updated at regular intervals. the delay in investigations.In my experience,an investigation To conclude, we must uphold the two vital principles can be done in the first 24 hours in the vast majority of of our justice system: justice delayed must not become cases, as very little changes. X says Y has done it, and Y justice denied, and everyone has a right to be regarded says, “I haven’t done it,” and that is it for the majority of as innocent until proven guilty. cases. The idea that most cases are extremely complex and need weeks, or even months, to be reviewed is not correct. In my view, we should go back to the old 5.3 pm system, where the custody sergeant was able to assess John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve the evidence there and then. From my experience over under your chairmanship, Sir David. many years, that did not do justice any harm whatever. The Minister will already have got the feeling from the debate that there is unanimity on both sides of the Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Gentleman makes House on this issue. I will not diverge from that. I an excellent point. We need to review the process that understand that the Government are undertaking a takes place before charging, but we now live in an age review of this area. We want the Minister to take up the where more information has to be collected from phones issues we are raising today as part of that and to make and digitally, which takes up a fair amount of resources. sure that we are heard. It is vital that the following issues are taken into As my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and account by the Government. First, it is essential that Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) said, we need a system RUI incorporates time limits. It is understandable that that is proportionate. Just from the figures for the the bail system needed reform. Time limits attached to Thames Valley, it is clear that the use of RUI is not bail have often been unrealistic in terms of dealing with proportionate. The number of people released on bail huge amounts of digital and social media evidence, between 2016 and 2017 was 13,768. However, in 2017-18 which is now often relevant to cases. It has been suggested that fell to 379 people, and the number released under to me by a senior police figure that a longer and investigation was 11,053. What is happening within the staggered time period, with different levels of approval, police service is completely disproportionate. might make bail work better. However, it is still essential that time limits of some kind are brought into the RUI In case the Minister has the impression that we are system so that victims and suspects are no longer left in alone in raising this issue, we are not. It has been put limbo. For these time limits to work, it is also vital that forward strongly by the Bar Council and the Law the police, the CPS and criminal lawyers are properly Society, and by the Association of Chief Police Officers resourced. in its guidelines on how RUI should be brought into operation. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate Secondly,while the promised increase in police numbers (Bambos Charalambous) has gone into great detail by the Government is welcome, there must also be about it, so I will not do that. proper resourcing for the collection and sorting of evidence, especially where it is stored digitally or where While there is clearly an issue of justice denied, the forensic analysis is required. The Government must major issue seems to be the victims being deprived of ensure that procedures and funding fit for the 21st century their rights. As we have heard, there is no ability to are in place. impose orders to keep people away from the houses of those they are accused of performing some disadvantage Thirdly, it is imperative that certain categories of to. The imposition of those orders, alongside general crime are excluded from the RUI system. It is entirely conditions, is a major feature of the bail system that inappropriate for suspects accused of domestic violence, does not exist in RUI. There is no ability to place violent crime or sexual violence to be placed under RUI. conditions on a suspect who has been released under investigation; it simply does not occur. That has an Sir Robert Neill: The hon. Gentleman is making an enormous impact on the lives of the victims. It is not impressive speech. Could his last point be dealt with by just the people who have committed the crime who are reforms to the codes of practice set out by the Police left languishing for ages, wondering what on earth is 153WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 154WH going to happen. Victims are left not knowing what is that RUI was not debated at any time during its going to happen with the person who has been accused considerations. Therefore, we cannot go to Hansard to of doing them harm. We need to make sure that proper look for any clues about what its clear purpose was. conditions are imposed. My hon. Friend the Member Perhaps the Minister could clarify that. for Bromley and Chislehurst mentioned the need to Secondly, was it the Government’s intention that RUI make RUI proportionate, and that, above all, seems to should grow so quickly and replace police bail in the me to be something that can help. way that it has? We have heard some figures quoted I finish with a quotation about the use of RUI: already, but the figures that I have been given are that, “in reality, it has made the situation far worse”. across England and Wales, the number released on It goes on: police bail went from 216,178 cases in 2016-17 to 43,923 in 2017-18. That is a dramatic fall, but it is compensated “Not only are people released under investigation for longer by 193,073 releases on RUI in that same year, of which than they were kept on police bail, but the absence of proper scrutiny means police do not keep suspects updated as to the 93,000 were for people suspected of violent or sexual progress of an investigation.” offences. Was it really the Government’s intention that Everyone in the criminal justice system is a loser from this should be such a dramatic change in the way that that—from police officers to victims and the people people under investigation are dealt with? alleged to have committed the crime. Defence lawyers Thirdly, what about legal aid? At the moment, legal are also victims of it, and my conclusion is that RUI has aid will be paid for police station time and for trial, but been a dismal failure. for nothing in between. That means nothing for those important pre-charge stages—or at least, it will only be Sir Robert Neill: There is another problem with the paid much later in the day. They are important stages of notification procedure. The single letter, which is sent investigation, and the defence has a role here as well in under the current system, makes it difficult to keep tabs querying whether evidence is being gathered, for example. on people. Frequently a person has moved, making it If there is to be a period of years, as we have heard in difficult for their lawyers to keep in touch. That will serious cases, where no progress is made in the case as then involve an application to the court for an arrest far as the defendant is concerned, there is a risk of warrant, and there may be subsequent hearings and a procedures perhaps not being followed as diligently as bail application, if there is an explanation for why these they might be. There is also a risk that defence solicitors, things have happened. Any cost saving made by not who are already under a lot of financial pressure, will having bail administered in the first instance is, perhaps, not be able to take cases where they are acting speculatively wiped out by the cost of extra court time for the issuing and have no prospect of being paid, perhaps for several of the warrant and any proceedings thereafter. There years. Effectively, they are subsidising the criminal justice must be a better way of dealing with that. process. Perhaps the Minister will respond by undertaking to look at that and, if RUI is to continue, at whether the John Howell: My hon. Friend makes an excellent payment for defence solicitors in relation to legal aid point, and there is another point to that: since we needs to be reconsidered. cannot take away people’s passports, they can go wherever they like and not be traceable. That makes a mockery of 5.13 pm the system. I understand why the police like RUI, since it allows Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I them more time to gather evidence following the expiration have the dubious extra background in this area of being of the timetable that they are under for pre-charge bail, one of the only people here, I imagine, who has been on but that is not a justification for continuing with a RUI in recent years. I was on it for quite a significant system that is now hopelessly discredited by all of us, period of time. I fully support the hon. Member for the Law Society, the Bar Society and others. I urge the Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) and pay Minister to look thoroughly and carefully at this issue. tribute to him for bringing forward this important topic, which for too long has been ignored. As he made clear in his speech, it was not the intention of the Home 5.10 pm Secretary at the time to have a situation in which these Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): It is a pleasure cases drag on and on. to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I congratulate I have two main points to make about RUI: it has no my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate conditions and no limit. No conditions is harmful to (Bambos Charalambous) on securing a debate on this victims, by allowing the guilty to prey on them consistently, very important subject. As he has set out very clearly and no limit is harmful to the innocent, by keeping the concerns on RUI, which I think are shared on both them stuck in a process without end. The only people sides of the House, I will limit myself to asking the who benefit from the system as it stands are the guilty, Minister three questions, if I may. because they are free to continue to offend, and those First, what is the purpose of RUI as far as the who make malicious complaints, as it allows the destruction Government are concerned? My contention is that it is that they have caused for the innocent to continue with a pressure valve to allow the police to cope with the lack no end in sight. of resources that they have, but I am sure that is not the I will pick up on a couple of points that hon. Members Government’s view, so I wonder what is. That is not a have made. First of all, a very fair point was made on flippant point. RUI is relatively recent, having come in electronic evidence. That is something that has come in under the Policing and Crime Act 2017, I think, and over the past few years, and police have to wade through therefore having taken effect less than three years ago. I very substantial amounts of it, so there is some truth in was not on that Public Bill Committee, but I understand the suggestion that they might need more time for that. 155WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 156WH

[Mr Richard Holden] What is important here is how quickly we, as Members of Parliament, should expect the police to carry out I welcome the review that the Government are undertaking their investigation. If the vast majority of cases are to look at that. Secondly, I think there is an element of straightforward and involve two or three statements, Parkinson’s law in this failure—maybe a bastardised how can that take more than 24 or 48 hours? Obviously version—in that, because there is a lack of urgency due people might be on holiday or away, but the vast majority to a lack of bail conditions, police can string out of times, in my experience, the process literally involves investigations, so that justice for victims and the innocent a police officer going out and taking the statements, is also delayed. and that is it. I will also pick up on the point made by the hon. It has been confirmed to me by colleagues over the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) about past couple of days that if that process happens—in legal aid. Having to find the money in advance if the most cases over a 24 or 48-hour period—and somebody person has a household income of more than £37,000 a is then released under investigation, when they come year—basically,every household with two people working back to the police station in a year’s time it will almost full-time on the minimum wage or more—and having to certainly be the same evidence.Nothing will have happened, wait potentially years to get that money back if they are so the decision made 12 months down the line could found innocent in court, is a huge financial pressure. have been made within 24 hours. People do not have tens of thousands of pounds of savings lying around, waiting for the justice system to Sir Robert Neill: My hon. Friend makes an important slowly creak into action, so anything that can speed up point, and I know that he has real coalface experience the process is also important. That was a point very well of this. What might change a year down the track is that made. I look forward to the Government’s review, which memories have faded, so the evidence will be less potent, I will be contributing to. I will happily work cross party which may result in a miscarriage of justice either way. on this matter with any other interested hon. Members We have talked about delays between charge and hearing in future. dates in Crown and magistrates courts. If a delay is added before charge because of this system, the delay 5.16 pm will be doubled up, which leads to that risk. James Daly (Bury North) (Con): I apologise if my James Daly: For cases involving fraud or some technical speech sounds rather like a ramble through my years as matters, a process such as this should quite clearly be a criminal defence solicitor. It probably will be that, but brought into play, because the technical examination of I hope that I can bring a little bit of experience on a computers or whatever takes weeks or months. My practical level about how I have experienced the criminal comments are not in respect of those cases. justice system as a legal aid lawyer. I left just before the To follow on from a point that my colleague made, I RUI process came into being. I had the dubious pleasure have been told in the last 24 hours of rape and manslaughter of dealing with police bail, which essentially was the cases following this process, which is quite incredible. It same situation, but with bail conditions and people is suggested that one of those cases has direct evidence being arrested on a regular basis for breaching them. of involvement, but this process is happening. A suspect The delays were there with police bail, as they are with in a most horrendous rape case, similar to the one RUI, so that situation has not changed massively, as far outlined, was released under this process for more than as I can see. 12 months. I do not know how that can be. My research for this debate was to speak to colleagues We should look at the process within the police who are still practising in large practices. A friend I station. When a suspect goes into a police station, they spoke to over the past couple of days told me that 75% will almost certainly be interviewed by an officer who of the people his firm represents who are interviewed in does not take responsibility for the case later in proceedings. police stations are released on the RUI procedure. How The officer who interviews does not have ownership of can that possibly be? The vast majority of those case are the case and gives it to the investigating officer, who is straightforward offences. That was the point I was perhaps somewhere else in the police station or is not on trying to make in my earlier intervention. shift at that moment in time, and the case gets lost Another colleague of mine said that the situation has within the system. My colleagues report back to me got to the point where, if my friend came to me and that, when this process happens, it is months down the punched me on the nose—although that would clearly line before the first conversation with the victim, or never happen—and I made a complaint to the police even the person who has been complained about. This and said, “I have seen my friend, Fred Bloggs, punch me system encourages delay and delayed justice, and that in the nose, and there is no doubt about it as I have simply cannot be right. known him for 10 years,” he would be released on this When I first practised in court, I used to represent procedure. He would not be charged. He would go shoplifters or people who had committed the most through this process for the best part of a year, and in straightforward offences. The court would be full of the end he would almost certainly be released without people committing that type of offence, but they are no charge, either because people had forgotten what they longer within the court system; they have been taken had said or the circumstances of the case, or because out. We have a limited number of cases for which we something else had happened. have created a system in which we do not investigate It is a very unsatisfactory process. I would like the these matters within an appropriate period of time. I Government to consider going back to the custody believe that, sadly—I know that this was not the intention sergeant ways. I know it is probably very old-fashioned, behind the process—this encourages tardiness and officers but I saw justice being done when I was a young lawyer. not prioritising these matters. 157WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 158WH

The only way of addressing this is to bring back a RUI and we can put conditions on it all we like, but that system in which charging has to be made within a set will not address the real root causes of the issues at the period of time, one way or the other, unless there is a heart of our criminal justice system—the crisis in detective good, proportionate and reasonable reason, or else we numbers, the enormous boom in digital and forensic will continue to have these problems. We cannot have a requirements attached to investigation, and the total system in which people accused of rape or manslaughter lack of capacity in the police force and the Crown are in the community for more than 12 months, able to Prosecution Service alike. speak to their victim, to leave the country and to do The Chair of the Justice Committee, the hon. Member other things. That is not the intention of the Government, for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), neatly the police or anybody involved in the process, but that is summarised the loss of the three safeguards for the where we are. suspect, the victim and the public. All have been removed I am interested to hear the Government’s view and to under the current system because of the explosion in contribute to the review, but I say to the Minister that RUI and the complete drop in police bail. He also made this comes down to who has the case initially and to the sensible suggestion that RUI should apply only in carrying out the investigation at the earliest opportunity. cases where unconditional police bail would otherwise It may be that we do not need a CPS lawyer to review all have been applied. The problem, as the Law Society the evidence. There may be an experienced police officer points out, is that risk assessments are simply not being who can do that, such as the custody sergeant, or there carried out across police forces and are certainly not may be another way of dealing with matters that protects applied consistently. potential victims and the interests of those who have The hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) made been involved in this process for a long time and that similar points about the proportionality of the system, means that justice can be done. describing it as a dismal failure. I think it was well At the start of my career, I believed that justice was intentioned, but it has indeed been a dismal failure. My done, but the custody sergeant did not always get it hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy right, and there were lots of cases in which no further Slaughter) made important points about legal aid and action happened as a result, so there is a strong argument the intention of the reforms, which I hope the Minister against what I am saying. However, I can tell hon. will respond to. I welcome the hon. Members for North Members, on behalf of my legal aid colleagues—I am West Durham (Mr Holden) and for Bury North (James proud to stand here as one of them, trying to represent Daly) to their places. Both spoke passionately from some of the things that they believe in very passionately— their opposite experiences of the issue, but with similar that justice was done, the public were protected and the passion and on the similar challenges around particular public interest was protected. I will obviously do anything types of offences. It is inconceivable that RUI should be I can to assist the Minister in the review. applied to rape and violent offences, and there can be little justification for it. 5.24 pm The Government’sannouncement of changes is welcome and requires careful consideration. We know of cases in Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): It is a pleasure which individuals arrested for serious crimes have been to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, and to investigated for many months—if not years in some respond to the debate from the shadow Front Bench. circumstances—with no conditions and no timeframe This has been an excellent debate, with Members with attached to those investigations. To my knowledge, this vested experience in these issues, which makes it even is the first time the reforms have been debated in this more profound that there has been so much agreement Chamber since they were introduced in 2017. It has on the challenges that these reforms to police bail have been something of a silent crisis, but its cause is obvious: presented to the criminal justice system over the past abandoning the time limits, monitoring and conditions three years. that underpinned police bail inevitably led to a severely I am delighted to see the Government acknowledge underfunded police force taking the much less cumbersome those challenges in the consultation announced today, option of releasing under investigation. which was clearly in direct response to the calling of the That has been demonstrated in the figures. Not only debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, have we seen a huge increase in the hard numbers, but Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), making this one the average length of time spent under investigation of the most successful Westminster Hall debates I have under this system has in some cases quadrupled in some ever taken part in. Some important points have been forces, so a reform designed to reduce the amount of made. My hon. Friend made the point that there has time individuals languish under police investigation has been a lot of focus recently on automatic early release, ended up extending it considerably. particularly relating to terrorism. It might shock hon. Members to know that, according to the latest RUI This was both foreseeable and foreseen. The figures, between 2018 and 2019 there was a 540% increase Government’s consultation on the reforms said: in suspects of terrorism offences released under investigation “respondents expressed concern that enabling release under or bailed without condition. investigation would not solve the underlying issue of an extended period of uncertainty for suspects… Indeed, some respondents My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate were concerned that, without even the minimal level of scrutiny made particular reference to domestic abuse victims, brought by the current process of granting and extending bail, and there has been significant scrutiny of that precisely there would be the potential for non-bail cases to take even longer because of the vulnerability of the victims involved and to resolve with priority given to cases where bail would need to be the fact that the suspects in their cases are free to justified to the courts.” contact them without condition. Major concerns about The hon. Member for Bury North highlighted that this investigative capacity were also raised. We can change has not only led to but encouraged or incentivised delay. 159WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 160WH

James Daly: What does the hon. Lady think about always support any proposals that help to correct some pre-charge advice? It is one of the reasons—it may be a of the enormous damage that has been committed over good reason—for delays in the system. Does she feel the past 10 years. that pre-charge advice plays a positive or negative role in this process? 5.33 pm Louise Haigh: It contributes to the delays in the system. Clearly it has had a role, alongside these reforms The Minister for Crime, Policing and the Fire Service and issues around capacity and resources across the (): It is a great pleasure to appear before whole system. you once again, Sir David. I thank the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) for securing It is shocking that 93,000 suspects of violence and this debate. This is an important issue. sexual assault were released under investigation since 2017. The Secret Barrister tweeted this week: I recognise the unanimity for change, as there was “The primary driver behind the drop in prosecutions for sexual unanimity for the introduction of the reforms, as the offences…is that lack of police resources means suspects are hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) said, being released under investigation (RUI’d) for *years*.” nary three years ago. As the hon. Member for The Government’s reforms did nothing to address the Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) said, the reforms pretty reason people were languishing on police bail; they much sailed through the House and were welcomed by simply gave the old problem a new label, while investigations all Front Benchers. I think our friends the Liberal became more complex and time consuming due to Democrats, who are not here, included the reforms in digital explosion. We are now seeing cases in the Crown their manifesto in 2015. Nevertheless, we recognise the court for offences dating as far back as 2017. While need for change. The Government are committed to suspects are left under the cloud of suspicion for years, ensuring that the police have the powers that they need victims of serious offences are denied closure and live in to protect the public and that our criminal justice fear of being confronted by their accused. system has at its heart the welfare and best interests of victims. I do not think the answers to this problem are complicated—some have been clearly expressed by hon. The police often deal with complex and high-harm Members today—nor does it require an endless Home cases, with more digital evidence than ever before. As Office review.There is a place for release under investigation, part of their investigations, the power to use pre-charge but it must be used proportionately. The open-ended bail is an important tool. It allows the police to maintain overuse of RUI has made a mockery of justice. Clearly, contact with individuals under investigation and can time limits must be introduced to prevent the perverse support the timely progression of investigations; and situation where victims and suspects are waiting too conditions can be set to protect victims and witnesses. I long. should point out that a breach of bail conditions is not The Government’s proposed mechanism to do this in itself a criminal offence. Although it means that via codes of practice with no judicial oversight requires people can be re-arrested at the time, they are then more careful thought. The risk is that unless the codes of than likely to be re-released on police bail. That might practice are strictly applied by officers, timescales will be one of the issues that we have to consider for the slip again. The police must be encouraged to use police future. Whether incidents occur while people are on bail where necessary to protect victims, particularly in police bail or under investigation, offences are often cases of violent of sexual offences. committed, such as intimidation of witnesses, in some cases, or harassment. I would urge the police to pursue Welook forward to engaging fully with the consultation those as offences in themselves, never mind whether in the coming weeks and months, but the elephant in they breach conditions. the room is the crisis in the criminal justice system, and this consultation alone will not fix that. The problem is As my hon. Friends will be aware, in 2017 the rooted in the utter mess the governing party has made Government reformed the rules on pre-charge bail to of criminal justice, from the explosion in violent crime address legitimate concerns that suspects were spending due to the reduction in police numbers, to the crisis in too long under restrictive conditions with no oversight the probation system and our prisons, meaning that or redress. That included the ability to release individuals offenders are leaving prison even more likely to reoffend. without bail conditions, or release under investigation, All of that has meant detectives and investigators are while inquiries continued. Reforms also introduced time dealing with an impossible caseload while facing a crisis limits, judicial oversight, and a presumption against the in numbers. use of pre-charge bail. Importantly, those reforms The Minister knows that the recruitment pledge will maintained the police’s ability to use pre-charge bail only help marginally, because there is no commitment when necessary and proportionate. It is important to to replace the 16,000 police staff and investigators who stress that the police can still use pre-charge bail, and have been lost. The party of law and order has veered so they should have our full support in doing so. wildly on criminal justice that it is hard to believe that Since the reforms came into force, we have seen the Ministers can maintain a straight face when they claim use of pre-charge bail fall significantly, mirroring an to be tough on crime. The cut of 20,000 police officers is increase in the number of individuals on RUI. Through now being reversed. Probation was privatised, but now conversations with partners across the criminal justice it is nationalised. Bail reforms were introduced, but now system, we have become aware of concerns that bail is they are reversed. On the central task of any not always being used when appropriate, including to Government—to keep the public safe—this Government prevent individuals from committing an offence while have been shambolic. The silent crisis in bail reforms on bail or interfering with witnesses. There have also requires swift action, which we will support, as we will been concerns that individuals released under investigation 161WH Release Under Investigation5 FEBRUARY 2020 Release Under Investigation 162WH are now under investigation for longer, with the negative lives of survivors, and the ongoing rape review is looking impacts on victims, witnesses and those subject to police at the criminal justice response to rape—from the police inquiries that many hon. Members have outlined. report to the outcome in court—to identify issues where We have listened to those concerns and decided to they exist, so that we can improve our response. act. On 5 November, as a number of hon. Members I am very grateful to hon. Members for their mentioned, we announced a review of pre-charge bail contributions. I hope that they will make longer and to ensure that we have a system that prioritises victims more considered contributions to the consultation, because and supports the police, while also respecting the rights we are determined to get this right. Everybody who was of suspects. As part of that review, we have today in the House when the Policing and Crime Act 2017 was launched a consultation, and my right hon. Friend the passed—the hon. Lady and I were new Members then— Home Secretary made a written ministerial statement may now admit that, sadly, it has had unintended with four proposals. consequences. We are duty-bound to try to correct that, First, we would remove the presumption against the and we hope and believe that, following the consultation, use of pre-charge bail. Secondly, we would ensure that we will be able to do so in the upcoming police powers bail was used when necessary and proportionate, including and protections Bill, which we hope to introduce later cases where there are risks to victims, witnesses and the this year. public, as well as where the offences in question had significant real or intended impacts. Thirdly, we would 5.39 pm extend the timescales for initial use of bail from 28 days to either 60 or 90 days, to more accurately reflect the Bambos Charalambous: It is pleasing to hear the timescales for complex cases. Fourthly, we would apply comments from the Minister. Following the consultation, review periods to cases where individuals are not subject many of the issues will hopefully be addressed. He will to bail, such as RUI, or where they are not arrested. have seen the cross-party consensus on the concerns Webelieve those proposals will strengthen and encourage about RUI. We will wait and see what comes forward the proper use of pre-charge bail, help to prioritise the from the consultation. safeguarding of victims and witnesses, and support the I still have some concerns, because some of the delays police. Importantly, we hope that they will also support are not necessarily down to police resources, but resources more effective investigations, regardless of whether bail elsewhere. For instance, the collection of data and forensic is used. Our consultation will close on 29 April, and we data may be handled elsewhere, so it could be that will prioritise talking to victims and victims’ groups additional staff who are not necessarily frontline police about their experiences, as well as hearing from those officers need to deal with that. That issue needs to be who may have been RUI. I will be happy to place the looked at. The Minister mentioned the possible extension record of this debate as the first contribution to that of timescales from 60 to 90 days. There is a police consultation, to which hon. Members are welcome to resourcing issue there in terms of whether that should make submissions on our website. be dealt with by a superintendent or by somebody at However, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley inspector level. That needs to be teased out as well. We said, addressing concerns about RUI and bail is only need to put suspects and victims at the heart of this, as one part of the solution. We in Government have a duty well as the general public. That needs to be front and to cut crime, bear down on the worst criminals and have centre of any reforms, but I welcome his comments, and a system that works for the law-abiding majority, which I hope we see reform following the consultation. is why we have pledged to recruit 20,000 additional Question put and agreed to. police officers and to increase funding for the Crown Resolved, Prosecution Service. That this House has considered the use of release under The upcoming royal commission on criminal justice investigation. will undertake a comprehensive review of the system and deliver practical recommendations that can make a genuine impact. The domestic abuse Bill will return to 5.41 pm Parliament before Easter and is set to transform the Sitting adjourned.

9WS Written Statements 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 10WS Written Statements HOME DEPARTMENT

Police Powers: Pre-charge Bail Wednesday 5 February 2020

DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT The Secretary of State for the Home Department (): This Government are committed to ensuring TV Licences the police have the powers they need to protect the public, and that our criminal justice system has at its The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries heart the welfare and best interests of victims. (): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of That is why on 5 November we launched a review of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Baroness pre-charge bail to ensure we have a system which prioritises Morgan of Cotes, has made the following statement. safeguarding and supports effective investigations, while On 5 February the Government launched a consultation also respecting the rights of suspects. on decriminalising TV licence evasion. The consultation invites views from both members of the public and organisations We have listened to people’s concerns, including on whether the Government should proceed with important issues raised by those who provide frontline the decriminalisation of TV licence evasion by replacing the support to victims of crime and survivors, the police criminal sanction with an alternative civil enforcement scheme. and parliamentarians. Decriminalisation of TV licence evasion was previously Today I am therefore pleased to announce the launch looked at by David Perry QC, and he concluded that the of our consultation on proposed changes to pre-charge criminal penalty remained appropriate under the current licence fee model. However, it has now been five years since bail. Specifically, the consultation seeks views on the the Perry review. The broadcasting landscape has changed following proposals: significantly, not least because five years ago a TV licence Removing the presumption against pre-charge bail; was not required to watch or download content on BBC Placing a duty on officers to use pre-charge bail where iPlayer. As well as this, the BBC’s decision on the future of necessary and proportionate, which would apply in cases the over 75 licence fee concession means those aged over 75 where there were safeguarding risks to victims, witnesses and and not in receipt of pension credit may become liable to the public; where necessary to prevent further offending; or face TV licensing enforcement procedures. where the offence in question has significant real or intended Given such changes, the Government believe that it is impacts; right to look again at decriminalising TV licence evasion in Lowering the rank of officer needed to authorise and extend order to ensure a proportionate and fair approach to licence pre-charge bail, while also extending the initial period pre-charge fee penalties and payments is in place, which protects the bail can be applied from 28 to either 60 or 90 days and most vulnerable in our society. delaying the point at which magistrates’ approval for the Against this background, the consultation will seek responses extension of bail is required from 3 months to 6, 9 or on whether to decriminalise evasion and give consideration 12 months; and to how this could happen. The determining factors that the Government will consider include: Introducing review points in codes of practice for investigations where pre-charge bail is not used, including where individuals Would an alternative, non-criminal enforcement scheme are interviewed voluntarily or released under investigation. be fairer and more proportionate? Importantly, this consultation will also look to gather views What the cost is and how difficult it would be to implement from victims of crime and those individuals who have been any alternative scheme? released under investigation about how the current system What is the potential impact on licence fee payers, particularly can be improved, as well seeking views on the current the most vulnerable and those with protected characteristics? effectiveness of bail conditions And what is the overall impact on licence fee collection? This is a Government that both listens and acts, and I The consultation will remain open for a period of eight look forward to hearing views on this important issue. weeks, after which the Government will carefully consider the responses. A consultation response will be expected to be The consultation will be available at: https://www.gov.uk/ published by summer 2020. Any changes will not enter into government/consultations/police-powers-pre-charge- effect until April 2022. bail The closing date and time for responses is 5 pm on 1 April 2020. A copy of the consultation will be placed in the A copy of the consultation will also be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Libraries of both Houses. [HCWS93] [HCWS94]

1P Petitions 5 FEBRUARY 2020 Petitions 2P

are appropriate for the individual road, reflecting local Petition needs and taking account of local considerations, such as the presence of schools. Setting national speed limits Wednesday 5 February 2020 in Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Government. Detailed guidance on setting local speed limits has OBSERVATIONS been issued by DfT and Transport Scotland for Scottish local traffic authorities. In this case, judgement and responsibility for speed TRANSPORT management lies with south Lanarkshire Council and I would suggest that the local residents continue to liaise Traffic situation in Strathaven and safe closely with Council officers on the matter. walking routes to school Traffic management: The petition of residents of East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, Traffic management is devolved and traffic authorities in Scotland have a statutory responsibility to provide Declares that the dangerous traffic situation in Strathaven traffic management schemes for their roads and are free should be resolved; notes that this market town and to make their own decisions about the streets under conservation area with a very long and special history is their care, including the parking arrangements, provided being damaged due to the speed of traffic through this they take account of the relevant legislation. Local town; further that the heavy traffic exacerbates problems councillors are responsible for ensuring that local decisions of pollution, noise and vibration damage; further that about street infrastructure take account of the needs narrow pavements and a lack of dedicated parking at and opinions of local people. Guidance on these matters Wester Overton Primary School increases the danger is available from Transport Scotland. for pedestrians, especially school children; and further that residents have concerns about the mix of traffic Safety around schools: which causes frustration and damage, especially where The Government are keenly aware of the impact of there are concerns about a possible safe walking route road traffic fatalities and injuries and the need to protect to schools in the Strathaven area. our most vulnerable, including children near schools. The petitioners therefore request that the House of By internationally measured standards the UK has Commons urges the Government to press upon the an excellent road safety record and a long history of South Lanarkshire Council to reduce the speed of traffic success in encouraging safe behaviours from all those through the market town, allow safe passage for school that use our roads. The number of people killed or children and to resolve the parking issues at local schools injured—using adjusted figures—on Britain’s roads has in the area. dropped by 21% from 2008 to 2018. In the same period And the petitioners remain, etc. —[Presented by there has also been a drop of 36% in the total number of Dr Lisa Cameron, Official Report, 14 January 2020; children between 0 to 15 years old killed or injured—using Vol. 669, c. 993.] adjusted figures—on Britain’s roads. [P002548] The Government are determined to make our roads even safer, which is why we are combining a range of Observations by the Parliamentary Under Secretary of focused measures to continue to improve road safety State for Transport (Baroness Vere) around schools including investing in the Walk to School Speed limits: programme, funding Bikeability cycle training and The Government acknowledges the effects excessive producing Think! campaigns which provide free educational vehicle speeds can have in local areas and are concerned resources online for 3 to 16 year olds. about this practice. Road Safety in Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Local traffic authorities are responsible for setting Government and I would suggest that the local residents speed limits on local roads and the Government’s view approach the Scottish Government for information on is that they are best placed to set local speed limits that what they are doing to improve road safety in Scotland.

5MC Ministerial Corrections5 FEBRUARY 2020 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

help in co-ordinating that effort and to the French Ministerial Correction Foreign Minister in relation to the flight that came home on Sunday. Wednesday 5 February 2020 [Official Report, 3 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 26.] Letter of correction from the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and First Secretary of State (). FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE An error has been identified in the statement I made Global Britain on Monday 3 February 2020. The correct statement should have been: The following is an extract from the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Dominic Raab: It was our honour on Friday to bring Affairs and First Secretary of State on 3 February 2020. home 29 other Europeans on the UK-commissioned charter flight from Wuhan, along with the 83 Britons, Dominic Raab: It was our honour on Friday to bring because we will always look out for our European home 29 other Europeans on the UK-commissioned friends, with whom we share so many interests. I am charter flight from Wuhan, along with the 97 Britons, grateful to the Spanish Foreign Minister for Spain’s because we will always look out for our European help in co-ordinating that effort and to the French friends, with whom we share so many interests. I am Foreign Minister in relation to the flight that came grateful to the Spanish Foreign Minister for Spain’s home on Sunday.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 5 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 295 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Barnett Formula ...... 304 Northern Ireland Executive Restoration ...... 301 Customs Regulations: Consistency ...... 303 “New Decade, New Approach” Agreement ...... 301 EU Customs Declarations...... 304 Security Situation...... 298 EU Withdrawal Act: Effect on the Union ...... 303 Leaving the EU: Economic and Social Effect...... 295 Northern Ireland Economy...... 300 PRIME MINISTER ...... 305 Northern Ireland Executive: Financial Package..... 297 Engagements...... 305 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 5 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 9WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 10WS TV Licences ...... 9WS Police Powers: Pre-charge Bail ...... 10WS PETITION

Wednesday 5 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 1P Traffic situation in Strathaven and safe walking routes to school...... 1P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 5 February 2020

Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 5MC Global Britain...... 5MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 12 February 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 671 Wednesday No. 22 5 February 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 5 February 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 295] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Education (Guidance about Costs of School Uniforms) [Col. 315] Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy [Col. 316] Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies (Environmentally Sustainable Investment) [Col. 316] Botulinum Toxin and Cosmetic Fillers (Children) [Col. 316] Animal Welfare (Sentencing) [Col. 316] National Minimum Wage [Col. 316] Sewage (Inland Waters) [Col. 316] Prisons (Substance Testing) [Col. 317] Control of Roadworks [Col. 317] Mental Health Admissions (Data) [Col. 317] British Library Board (Power to Borrow) [Col. 317] Public Interest Disclosure (Protection) [Col. 317] Trade Agreements (Exclusion of National Health Services) [Col. 318] Unpaid Work Experience (Prohibition) (No. 2) [Col. 318] Education and Training (Welfare of Children) [Col. 318] Registers of Births and Deaths [Col. 318] Meat (Grading and Labelling) [Col. 318] NHS 111 Service (Training and Clinical Oversight) [Col. 319] Third Sector Organisations (Impact and Support) [Col. 319] Asylum Seekers (Permission to Work) [Col. 319] Bills presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [2nd allotted day] Local Government Finance [Col. 320] Motion—(Andrew Gwynne)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Jake Berry)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Transport [Col. 377] Motion—(Andy McDonald)—on a Division, negatived

Nuclear Energy Policy: Climate Change [Col. 426] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Operation Augusta [Col. 85WH] User-led Social Care [Col. 107WH] Beer and Pub Taxation [Col. 113WH] Rail Services: Maidenhead, Twyford and Branch Lines [Col. 139WH] Release Under Investigation [Col. 147WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 9WS]

Petition [Col. 1P] Observations

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]