Thursday Volume 592 12 February 2015 No. 110

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 12 February 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 933 12 FEBRUARY 2015 934

Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I House of Commons am grateful to my right hon. Friend for referring to the Select Committee report. Unfortunately, one year might Thursday 12 February 2015 be too late for the many dairy farmers going out of business. Will he undertake an immediate and urgent review into extending the remit of the GCA to indirect The House met at half-past Nine o’clock supply chains, such as those in the dairy industry, as well as direct supply chains with supermarkets? PRAYERS Vince Cable: The hon. Lady rightly touches on the key outstanding issue, and I certainly believe it would [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] be appropriate to consider the indirect supply chains. I am happy to talk to my colleague the Secretary of State BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about that particular issue, but I think she will find that there is a TRANSPORT FOR LONDON BILL [LORDS] legislative obstacle. Motion made, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Will my right hon. Friend look at the successful local sourcing policies Hon. Members: Object. promoted by the East of England Co-operative Society, Bill to be considered on Thursday 26 February. with the support of Forward East, which are enabling small food and drink manufacturers to get their products into local stores? He and others might wish to know Oral Answers to Questions that on Tuesday 24 February, in the Inter-Parliamentary Union room at lunchtime, they will be able to witness that for themselves.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Vince Cable: It is always the case that genuinely voluntary efforts to promote local sourcing produce The Secretary of State was asked— substantial benefits and that legislation is necessarily a blunt instrument. The method my hon. Friend describes Small Farm Companies is better where it can be applied.

1. Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): Technology and Video Games Sectors What assistance his Department provides to small farm companies in supply chains. [907592] 2. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues in the Department The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and for Education and Department for Culture, Media and Skills (Vince Cable): The House legislated to strengthen Sport and with the devolved Administrations on ensuring protection for small farmers and small businesses supplying that their policies meet the skills needs of the technology supermarkets by establishing the Groceries Code and video games sectors. [907593] Adjudicator. I recently secured Government agreement to enable the GCA to impose fines of up to 1% of The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy turnover on supermarkets found guilty of mistreating (Mr Edward Vaizey): As a joint Minister at the Department suppliers. I was also pleased that the GCA last week for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department launched a formal investigation into alleged breaches for Culture, Media and Sport, I often have conversations by Tesco of the groceries code, and I urge those with with myself about this important issue, and on the odd evidence to come forward. occasion they get dull, I involve the Minister for Skills Mr Robathan: I think the Secretary of State and I are and Equalities and the Department for Education. I am at one on this, but he will know of the plight of pleased to tell the hon. Gentleman that we have introduced the many small dairy farmers driven out of business by a new school computing curriculum, are establishing a the abuse of market position by supermarkets and big new national college for digital skills and are co-funding buyers, and of its impact not just on the face of our with employers innovative degree apprenticeships. countryside, but through the importation of milk that is probably produced to much lower farm welfare standards Jim McGovern: I try not to speak to myself about than our own. Will he therefore consider strengthening this subject, but the Minister will be aware that I have the powers of the GCA so that if market position is raised on numerous occasions the importance of computer abused, farmers and others are not penalised by the and video games to the Dundee, Scotland and UK strength of supermarkets? economy. I am sure he agrees that there is a skills shortage—not enough graduates are going into the Vince Cable: I am aware of the Select Committee computer games industry. What is he doing with other report that suggested something very similar. Its main Departments to address this situation? recommendation was that we introduce the power of fines, which we have now done, but there will be a Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman is a doughty champion review of the GCA within a year of the legislation, and for the video games industry, which is hugely successful no doubt in the next Parliament those powers can be in his constituency and throughout the country, and the taken. video games tax relief will also help the industry grow. 935 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 936

However, he is quite right to point to the need to focus Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): on skills. The games industry was instrumental in This year, China will produce something like 2 million persuading the Government to have computer coding graduates in engineering and engineering-related subjects. taught in schools, and, because we have a sense of Engineering firms in my constituency tell me how difficult urgency about this, we have introduced new degree it is to recruit engineers, particularly female ones, and apprenticeships so that people at university can work that when they train them up, they often lose them to closely with employers on the latest technology. larger firms. What can the Minister do to make sure we have a better join-up between business requirements Engineers and education so that engineers stay in this country and produce for our economy? 3. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): What steps he is taking to increase the number Nick Boles: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about of engineers. [907594] the desperate need for more engineers, but we have been making good progress. Since 2010, the number of people The Minister for Skills and Equalities (Nick Boles): starting an engineering-related apprenticeship has gone We are investing in engineering skills at every level in up by 52%, and since 2013 the number of people higher education through apprenticeships and in further starting an engineering degree has risen by 6.5 %. If we education, but perhaps the most important initiative is can get a better supply coming through the pipe, companies the university technical college initiative. We have opened will be less inclined to poach from each other and will 30 university technical colleges and a further 27 are in actually invest in developing the talent themselves through the pre-opening phase. an apprenticeship.

Stephen Metcalfe: As we know, we are going to have Universal Service Obligation (Mail Deliveries) increasing demand for engineers nationally over the next few decades, and this will be no more acute than in Basildon and Thurrock. Will my hon. Friend therefore 4. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) work with me to explore the possibility of establishing a (Lab): What steps he plans to take to safeguard the university technical college in Basildon to meet our universal service obligation for the delivery of mail. local needs and to encourage and enthuse young people [907597] to look at engineering as a valued career? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Nick Boles: I would be delighted to do that. I know Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): The universal service my hon. Friend has been leading the process of trying obligation is not an optional extra—it is a fundamental to set up a UTC in his constituency. I urge him to make duty enshrined in law and only Parliament could change contact with the excellent Baker Dearing Educational that. In addition, it is the responsibility of the postal Trust, which developed the concept of the UTC and regulator, Ofcom, to ensure services are available throughout will provide invaluable advice on how to make sure that the UK at an affordable and uniform price, six days a my hon. Friend submits a successful bid. week.

Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The Michael Connarty: I thank the Minister for that reply, Minister will know that the largest manufacturing industry but is it not time that we looked at how Ofcom carries in the country is food and drink, and that it has one of out its remit, possibly through a judicial review of that the biggest export potentials. Will he recognise that remit? Given that Ofcom has been dragged reluctantly engineering disciplines that are ancillary to that industry to review the actions of the cherry-pickers such as also have enormous potential, whether it be agricultural Whistl, which wants to pick mail up in the 8% of the engineering, food processing, food storage requirements UK’s geographical area that covers 42% of the mail or food transport. Will he look at technical education thereby undermining the ability of Royal Mail to deliver, from the point of view of where the export potential is, Ofcom attacked the standard of wages and conditions particularly in the developing world? of the Royal Mail workers rather than deal with the problem of cherry-picking of the universal service Mr Speaker: Minister Nicholas Edward Coleridge obligation, which could be irrecoverably damaged. Boles. Jo Swinson: There is agreement on both sides about Nick Boles: Mr Speaker, thank you! You have slightly the importance of the universal service obligation, and thrown me off my course. I do not think there is any evidence that the regulator is I welcome what my hon. Friend has said, and I hope failing to fulfil its duty. It looked in detail at the case the that he welcomes the announcement made by my right Royal Mail put forward last summer and concluded hon. Friend the Chancellor when launching our long-term that the market is operating as it should at the moment. economic plan for the south-west, in which he encouraged It is committed to a further review later this year, and is a proposal to come forward for a university technical also looking at the issue of access pricing. These issues college specifically focused on agriculture and related are continually under consideration because the USO is industries. I hope that my hon. Friend will be involved so important. in promoting that. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I am disappointed Mr Speaker: I apologise to the Minister, the full that you did not tell the House the middle names of this munificence of whose name I was simply seeking to Minister, Mr Speaker, but perhaps we can look forward capture for the edification of the House. to that later. 937 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 938

It is nearly 18 months since the botched privatisation Secretary of State explain why Ministers are not supporting of Royal Mail. There are reports almost weekly of its Labour’s plans to use public procurement to create new being under pressure from the impact of Amazon’s apprenticeship opportunities? increased use of its own delivery network, and from rivals which are cherry-picking the most profitable services. Vince Cable: I remind the hon. Gentleman that under As the Minister has just said, Ofcom recently concluded the last Government the numbers of apprenticeship that other firms did not have to match Royal Mail’s starts was half the number that we have seen in the costly standards in the delivery of the universal service current Parliament, and that these are also significantly obligation. Given that Labour warned time and again longer and higher-level apprenticeships. As for procurement, that privatisation would ultimately threaten the USO, if companies can build in apprenticeships—which we and given that the National Federation of SubPostmasters encourage them to do—that is of course desirable, but called it a “reckless gamble”, will the Minister look it is a very crude mechanism which adds to the barriers again at the USO, and give a cast-iron guarantee that it facing small business and the cost to the Government. will be secure under this Government? The experience of trying to build conditionality into section 106 agreements suggests that many companies Jo Swinson: This Government have already given that regard the process as token, and do not invest in sustainable cast-iron guarantee by legislating for it in the Postal Services apprenticeships. Act 2011. Parliament has set it very firmly in stone. Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I recently Unless the hon. Gentleman thinks that any future Labour visited Mathias & Sons, a work clothing manufacturer Government would be minded to change the position, I in my constituency. It is hoping to secure the contract to hope that Members on both sides of the House can feel provide clothing for workers at the Hinkley Point C confident that the universal service obligation is secure. development. What can the Government do to ensure As I said earlier, Ofcom, the regulator, has significant that important small businesses like that obtain contracts powers to obtain information from other operators in for such huge developments? the market. It monitors operators’ plans regularly, and looks at the information every month. Operators must Vince Cable: I believe that congratulations are due to also inform the regulator of their future plans. That will the hon. Lady, who has become engaged—perhaps this remain under review, and a formal review will take morning, but certainly recently. place later this year. I think that what I have said should As for procurement and Hinkley Point, the leading reassure the House that the universal service obligation contractors have committed themselves to a substantial is here to stay. UK content, and we hope that that extends to apprenticeships. We are endeavouring to frame the pre- Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the qualification questionnaires in such as way that Minister help me by explaining why postal collections apprenticeship training is encouraged in UK procurement. that used to take place at 4 pm now take place at 9 am? Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Jo Swinson: That is obviously a slightly different issue Co-op): Big projects such as Crossrail and HS2 are UK- from the USO, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that wide. What steps are the Government taking to ensure Royal Mail has reviewed the time of collections from that businesses throughout the UK, including small post boxes in which fewer than 50 items of mail were businesses, have an opportunity to benefit from the being deposited each day, as part of an overall review of procurement and Government spending that is associated its service. In a positive move which I think Members with that type of work? should welcome, it has maintained all those collection Vince Cable: I gather that senior politicians, including points rather than decommissioning some of them, me, have been queuing to go down into Crossrail to although collections will be less frequent. It has also admire its progress. One of Crossrail’s key achievements ensured that there will be an alternative posting point is to substantially advance apprenticeships and, above within half a mile of post boxes from which there are all, UK content; there is a wide distribution throughout fewer collections or an earlier final collection, from the UK. If we can replicate the experience of Crossrail which mail will be collected later. with other big infrastructure projects, that would be an Government Procurement admirable step forward. Student Loans 5. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): If he will 6. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What take steps to increase apprenticeship places and support assessment he has made of the sustainability of the small businesses through greater use of government student loan system. [907601] procurement. [907600] The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Clark): More students entered university this year than Skills (Vince Cable): Under the industrial strategy, we ever before in our history, with the biggest rise coming encourage a long-term approach to procurement, including from the poorest areas. Universities will see their teaching apprenticeships and other forms of training. resources grow from around £8 billion in 2011 to around £10 billion next year. Graduates are earning 40% more Grahame M. Morris: May I point out, with respect, than non-graduates. The taxpayer gets £300,000 extra that the Labour Government used spending on public in tax receipts alone over the average graduate’s career. procurement to boost apprenticeship opportunities, All this is why the OECD said last month: especially in the case of big projects such as Crossrail “England has got it right on paying for higher education. and the London Olympics? Given that the European Among all available approaches, the UK offers still the Union procurement rules do not prevent that, will the most…sustainable approach to university finance.” 939 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 940

Paul Blomfield: In a recent parliamentary debate, the Mr Hanson: For over a year, I have written and tabled Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Havant parliamentary questions asking for a review of the (Mr Willetts), who I am delighted to see in his place, scheme. On 14 January, the Secretary of State met RBS. said that the system needed some tweaking. The public On 15 January, RBS announced a review of its scheme. need to know what tweaking the Government have in Given that it controls about 40% of the enterprise mind. If the Conservatives are in power after the election— finance guarantee scheme, that it is calling for a review [Interruption.] I know it is unlikely but if that is the and is looking at the matter internally, is it not about case will the Minister guarantee that there will be no time that the Minister did that himself? increase in the fee cap, no decrease in the loan repayment threshold and no change in the interest rate on loans? Matthew Hancock: We constantly review the scheme to ensure that we get the best possible deal. The majority Greg Clark: Our universities need to benefit from the of the enterprise finance guarantee goes through other confidence and stability that our reforms have introduced. banks, which, as far as we know, are performing impeccably. I am perfectly happy with all the arrangements that we On the RBS aspect, we have met RBS to discuss that. It have. The uncertainty comes from the Labour party’s is reviewing the matter, and we will make sure that it proposals, about which the university vice-chancellors works in the future. The big picture is that the scheme is are deeply concerned. They said that they would mean working well and helping small firms to access finance. “cuts to universities that would damage the economy, affect the quality of students’ education, and set back work on widening Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Following a year access to higher education”. of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn At a time when confidence is needed, the Labour party (Mr Hanson) raising this issue, RBS has admitted that is proposing chaos. there has been mis-selling of the EFG scheme. Rebuilding confidence in our banking sector will be Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): one of the key tasks facing the next Labour Government. Actually, the UCAS figures published recently show From interest rate swaps to tax evasion and now mis-selling that there are 7,000 fewer British applicants to our of EFG loans, the Government have been slow to act universities than there were in 2011. Figures from the and slow to investigate whether there are problems. Library show that we are wasting and writing off £1 in Does the Minister now accept that only through every £2 that we invest in the higher education system, investigating and repairing mis-selling in Britain’s high and our students will not pay back their debts until they street banks will confidence in the sector return? are in their 50s. We are educating fewer of our young people and we are wasting more of our money. Matthew Hancock: The hon. Gentleman has a bit of The Chancellor forecast that there would be 60,000 a cheek, because the investigation required, and the extra students this year, yet the UCAS data show that sorting out of confidence in banks, was an enormous there are only 12,000 extra applicants for this September. issue that we had to take on in 2010. We have regulated Does the Minister want to explain to the House why, if and passed legislation throughout this Parliament to his system is so good, he has just missed his growth ensure that there is more confidence in the banking target by an incredible 80%? industry. Of course, there is more to do, but considering how far we have come over the last five years, the hon. Greg Clark: That is total nonsense. We have more Gentleman ought to be saying we have done a good job students than ever before in this country. We have been and be helping us to do that. able to take the cap off the number of students able to go to university, a historic decision that implements the Manufacturing recommendation of the Robins report of over 50 years ago. In terms of putting people off going to university, 9. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): the big concern of the vice-chancellors is that the Labour What steps he is taking to promote investment in party’s proposals would specifically damage the prospects innovation in the manufacturing sector. [907606] of poorer students and risk the quality of education for all. It is time that the right hon. Gentleman, who has failed to come up with a policy for all this time, said, The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg weeks before the election, what Labour’s policy on Clark): The regional growth fund provides support to higher education is. key industries in England, creating and safeguarding jobs. I am pleased to announce today that regional growth fund support over the next two years will be Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme expanded by nearly £300 million, including more than 60 new schemes. Some 90% of the funding announced 7. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): If he will review today will go to projects and programmes in the the use by banks of the enterprise finance guarantee manufacturing sector, helping companies to expand, scheme. [907602] develop new products and new markets and create long-term skilled jobs. The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock): The enterprise finance guarantee is an important Mr Speaker: Mr Barry Sheerman. part of our support to viable businesses looking to get access to finance where they do not have sufficient Mr Sheerman: You do not want to mention, Mr Speaker, collateral or a track record. We regularly review its that my second name is John, and when I was a young performance and have found that by increasing access councillor with my first seat in Wales I went around to finance it helps jobs and growth. with my full name of Barry John. 941 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 942

May I say to the Minister, “Not bad, but not good and drink manufacturing council, with collaboration enough”? Why can we not have up front, “Manufacturing, between the industry and the Government to foster manufacturing, manufacturing”? We need a commitment innovation, have fallen on deaf ears. The phrase “food to that across the parties in this House. We have just and drink manufacturing” is not even mentioned in the launched a cross-party manufacturing commission. Will Government’s agri-tech strategy.Why have the Government the Minister support it, will he do something about it, chosen to ignore this innovative and high-potential and will he come tonight to the Institution of Mechanical manufacturing sector, and how will the Minister make Engineers’ manufacturing conference and hear me speak? amends?

Greg Clark: Tempting though that invitation is, I am Greg Clark: We have not ignored it. In fact, I had the not sure I will be hearing the hon. Gentleman speak, privilege of attending the Agri-Tech Leadership Council, although I enjoy his contributions in this House. which involved many of our key players across the food Manufacturing has been enjoying a stunning revival and drink industry and my colleague, the Under-Secretary during the last few years, and it is supported by the of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. investments made through the local growth fund and Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) the regional growth fund. Some £1.1 billion of funding and the Minister in the Department for Environment, has been put into manufacturing. Is there further to go? Food and Rural Affairs, Lord de Mauley. We met Of course, but this Government’s strategy is clear: by representatives of the industry precisely to plan and reviving the sectors in which we have strengths that are implement the strategy that the sector wants to put famous around the world, we can build the prosperity forward. that will provide the security for our country for many years to come. Bank Lending Mr David Willetts (Havant) (Con): Will the Minister confirm that when we talk about “tech” we mean not 10. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What recent just the software, but the hardware as well, and that assessment he has made of the availability of finance there are enormous prospects for British manufacturing, for small firms and the level of lending by banks to especially supported through the RGF, to be world small businesses. [907607] leaders in the high-tech industries of the future? The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew Greg Clark: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Hancock): Gross lending by the banks to small and medium- He and I had the privilege to be at the Royal Society last sized businesses has increased by 25% over the last year, night, where awards were presented for some of the key and recent net lending figures have been positive. This figures who are translating some of our most brilliant week, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced ideas into practice, especially in advanced manufacturing. Help to Grow, to boost scale-up finance, building on the Across all the sectors there is confidence that the prospects success of our start-up loans. for this country are better than ever. That is a tribute in large part to the work that my right hon. Friend did in Valerie Vaz: Fine words, but how does the Minister office. reconcile that with the Bank of England’s own money and credit statistics, which say that lending to small Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The steel unions, businesses has fallen in the last quarter by £1 billion? supported by steel employers, launched a “Stand Up for Too many schemes and not enough action. Steel” campaign after the debate in this Chamber on the future of the steel industry.With there still being uncertainty about the future of Tata long products, what are the Matthew Hancock: On the contrary, the gross lending Government doing to stand up for steel, a crucial part is up sharply—around a quarter over the past year—and of our manufacturing industry that is famous for its there are also greater repayments as businesses that are innovation and crucial to the future success of this becoming stronger are able to pay down some of their country? debts. That means that the net figure has been increasing in recent months. We need to look through the individual figures and see the bigger picture of the expansion. Greg Clark: Anyone who was born on Teesside cannot However, there is of course much more to do to recover fail to be aware of the importance of the steel industry. from the banking crash that occurred in 2008. It is an important part of our industrial base, and this Government have made significant strides in supporting it. For example, we have reduced the energy costs that Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What progress are the would otherwise have been incurred. The hon. Gentleman Government making to bring justice and recompense to will know that my right hon. and hon. Friends have the thousands of small businesses that were mis-sold—and regular discussions with representatives of the steel perhaps still are being mis-sold—interest rate swap industry and will continue to support it. agreements?

Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The hon. Member Matthew Hancock: I know about this issue very well, for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) rightly said that not only in a ministerial capacity but because Mr Ian the food and drink manufacturing sector was the largest Parker is one of the main advocates for a solution to manufacturing sector in this country. It employs 400,000 this, and he is a constituent of mine. It is important to people and invests £1 billion in innovation. There is also get to the bottom of this issue, but it is complicated. huge opportunity for further growth through innovation, There is work going on across the Financial Conduct but the Food and Drink Federation’s calls for a food Authority and the Treasury, as well as the Department 943 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 944 for Business, Innovation and Skills, to ensure that we have to be negotiated and uncertainty as to the different get to the bottom of it and that people get appropriate forms of exit, be it the Norwegian, Swiss or Turkish recompense. model. He will have to reflect with his colleagues on the damage now being done by that uncertainty. EU Membership Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I note that 11. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): What the Secretary of State did not answer any of the questions recent assessment he has made of the contribution of asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley the UK’s EU membership to businesses and the UK (Philip Davies), because he is embarrassed by the answers economy. [907610] he would have to give the House. It is my strongly held view that Britain would be better off out of the European The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Union, because we would be able to control our immigration Skills (Vince Cable): The European single market gives and save the £10 billion a year membership fee. Given British firms access to 500 million consumers and, as that we do have a massive and growing trade deficit our largest trading partner, is responsible for almost with Europe—those countries sell us more than we sell half of this country’s exports. A wide range of economic them—is it not a complete myth that trade with Europe studies demonstrate the benefits to the UK economy would stop were we to leave the EU? from EU membership. Vince Cable: Of course it entirely depends what the Heidi Alexander: It is my strongly held view that a alternative arrangements are, and I have never been UK exit from the European Union would be bad for terribly clear what those people who want to leave are British jobs, bad for British exports and bad for the actually seeking. If we had a Norwegian solution, we British people. When did the Secretary of State last would still have the immigration movements. If we had speak to the Prime Minister about the so-called negotiations a Swiss agreement, there would be a substantial degree with other European leaders about EU reform? Does he of integration. I think that what many Members who know what the deal-breaker is for the Prime Minister want to leave the EU are asking for is an arrangement that would lead to the Prime Minister campaigning such as that prevailing with Turkey, under which there against our continued membership of the European is minimal commitment to a single market but very few Union? of the benefits of membership. UK’s First Space Port Vince Cable: The Prime Minister and I discuss this frequently, and we agree that there need to be significant 12. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What reforms and improvements in the European single market, recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of particularly moving on to a digital single market. The State for Transport on the location of the UK’s first hon. Lady is quite right to say that our exit would be space port. [907612] massively disruptive, and a lot of actual and potential foreign investors in this country are making it absolutely The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg clear that they are alarmed by that possibility, should Clark): I met Transport and Defence Ministers yesterday there be a change of Government. to discuss progress on delivering the UK’s first space port. They are both part of the cross-governmental Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Can the Secretary of team taking forward the national space flight agenda. State tell us: how much this country has handed over in The Government have undertaken a public consultation membership fees alone to the European Union since it on the eight potential locations, including Machrihanish became a member of the Common Market; what our in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, and the criteria cumulative trade deficit has been since we joined the that will be used to select the location of a UK space Common Market; what our trade deficit was last year port. Our response to that consultation will be published with the European Union; in how many years we have shortly. had a trade surplus with the EU since we joined the Common Market; what proportion of the world economy Mr Reid: I thank the Minister for that answer. A the EU made up when we joined the Common Market; space port would be a great boost to the British economy. and what proportion of the world economy the EU is Machrihanish, with its 3 km runway and all the facilities today? of a Royal Air Force base, and being far from densely populated areas, is obviously the clear choice for the Mr Speaker: That sounds like a request for an essay. space port. I urge the Government to go on to the next It needs to be an extremely pithy one. phase of the decision-making process quickly and choose Machrihanish as soon as possible. Vince Cable: I will do my best to answer the second, third and fourth of the hon. Gentleman’s six questions, Greg Clark: I assure my hon. Friend that we will be which related to the trade deficit. Clearly, if we look at taking the first part of his advice and proceeding quickly, the trade deficit in terms of services as well as goods, but it would be wrong to pre-empt the outcome of that and if we look at capital flows, including inward investment, consultation and to nominate Machrihanish from the the position is a very positive one. I do have to record—I Dispatch Box today. am sure he is aware of this—the extreme alarm now being expressed in business circles about the possibility Mr Speaker: I call Jesse Norman. He is not here— of a Conservative Government, creating a great deal of [Interruption.] Indeed—the exhortation from the hon. uncertainty in this area. There is uncertainty about a Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) was, “Take his prolonged hiatus as the conditions which he is seeking name, sergeant major.” 945 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 946

Digital Single Market T2. [907620] Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Further to the reply that my hon. Friend the Minister 14. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): What the for Culture and the Digital Economy gave a moment Government’s policy is on the creation of the digital ago, can he confirm that the Government’s position single market; and if he will make a statement. [907616] remains as set out in the response to the consultation on the review of EU copyright law—that any changes The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy should be based on hard evidence? Perhaps I might ask (Mr Edward Vaizey): In homage to the elaborate him a second time to be a little clearer—just so that we nomenclature of the Minister for Skills and Equalities, can be absolutely certain that everyone is aware—that which you have revealed this morning, Mr Speaker, let the Government support the right of territorial me quote our greatest romantic poet: licensing, as the Prime Minister’s special adviser set out “Nothing is so contagious as enthusiasm.” to the creative industries yesterday. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, that our non-paper on the digital single market, which contains an enthusiastic The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy vision for a digital single market, has gone down an (Mr Edward Vaizey): Yes, that is the case. I should make absolute storm in Europe, partly because it is online, it absolutely clear that the non-paper that we have with interactive graphics. submitted to the European Commission represents a vision for the digital single market. It is our firm belief Mr Whittingdale: I welcome the progress we are that consumers should be able to access content in a fair making on creating a digital single market—and indeed and reasonable way wherever they are, but we do support the interactive graphics. Is the Minister aware that the the right of industries with internet protocol to sell business models of some of our most successful industries, territorial licensing. particularly those in the audiovisual sector and sports rights, depend on territorial licensing. Will he confirm Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): Following their that the Government’s policy is to continue to support “Maoist and chaotic” abolition of regional development their right to do that? agencies—the Business Secretary’s words not mine—the Government’s flagship regional growth policy this Mr Vaizey: Let me say that Parliament has been the regional growth fund, which “common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls was mentioned earlier. This might be our last Business, wisdom.” Innovations and Skills questions this Parliament, so can That is Coleridge as well, but nobody understood. My the Secretary of State tell me what percentage of those hon. Friend has displayed immense common sense in RGF moneys, announced to great fanfare, have actually pointing out that it is important that we stand up for the made it to, and been drawn down by, the businesses intellectual property rights of our very successful creative concerned? industries. It has to be said as well that we should be mindful of what the consumer now wants, which is to Vince Cable: I am going off later today to talk about access content in a fair and reasonable way wherever the regional growth fund and its latest successes. Most they are based. So we need to work with industry and companies that have received RGF awards are highly the consumer to achieve a happy result. appreciative of them. The awards have been highly successful in attracting private investment, which might Topical Questions not otherwise have occurred, and a substantial amount of employment. Of course a significant percentage does T1. [907618] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): If not go through immediately because of due diligence. he will make a statement on his departmental Many of the awards are not completed because the responsibilities. projects proceed anyway or are withdrawn, and that is a The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and consequence of the very careful and prudential way in Skills (Vince Cable): My Department plays a key role in which we manage money under the regional growth supporting the rebalancing of the economy through fund. business to deliver growth while increasing skills and learning. Mr Umunna: The fact is that hundreds of millions of pounds of RGF moneys are gathering dust and are Jim McGovern: The National Union of Rail, Maritime nowhere to be seen by many of the businesses that they and Transport Workers recently reported that, due to promised to help. The local enterprise partnerships that the fall in oil prices, the terms and conditions of people were put in place to do the job of the RDAs were left employed in the oil industry have been reduced. Is the without appropriate budgets or powers, and the local Minister aware of that and what steps is he taking to enterprise zones, which we were told would create 54,000 address that exploitation? jobs, have so far created less than a quarter of that sum. There has been a lot of grand talk from these Ministers The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew on their plans to rebalance the economy, but as this Hancock): The fall in the oil price has had a direct Parliament comes to an end—never mind the chaos that impact on those employed in the industry both in the Secretary of State talked about—are not the words Aberdeen and across the whole country, and there is no that best sum up delivery of schemes to boost regional doubt that it will continue to have an impact. Nevertheless, growth, “utter incompetence”? the safeguarding of jobs, in some cases with reductions of pay, is an important part of the response and we are Vince Cable: If the shadow Secretary of State is so working closely with the industry and other stakeholders critical of the regional growth fund, is he proposing to to try to ensure that we get through these difficult times. abolish it? I suspect not. The reason why some money is 947 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 948 not spent is that tests of due diligence have not been sciences at the Departments for Business, Innovation satisfied. I am sure that he will acknowledge the fact and Skills and of Health, where I have responsibility for that, under the regional growth fund, public money is NICE and the Medicines and Healthcare products spent a lot more efficiently and effectively in drawing in Regulatory Agency, allows us to begin to ensure that private investment than ever happened under the regional our health system better supports our life sciences cluster. development agencies, which were wasteful and ineffective. The review I recently launched of speedier access for innovative medicines will tackle the issue of uptake that T3. [907621] Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): my right hon. Friend has rightly raised. Many people say that LEPs have been a huge improvement on the regional development agencies, T6. [907625] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): but some small businesses that I talk to in Bristol are Ninety-three per cent. of those aged 25 or over who concerned that their priorities are not always reflected completed apprenticeships last year already worked for in local growth funds. Will the Minister work with his their employer. If this is not just a rebadging of existing colleagues to ensure that the priorities of small training programmes as apprenticeships, what is it? businesses are reflected in LEPs, and that LEPs are not unduly influenced by major business interests? The Minister for Skills and Equalities (Nick Boles): One of the most extraordinary steps the Opposition have taken is to tell us that if someone is employed by a The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg business we do not care about the process of giving Clark): It is very important that businesses have a them new skills, and that it is inappropriate for the strong voice in the leadership of the local economy. Government to invest in giving them those skills. It is That is what they are achieving through LEPs and it has entirely reasonable for businesses to employ someone been one reason why more than 2 million new private for a time and then see that they have the aptitude and sector jobs have been created during this period. My potential to complete an apprenticeship. Apprenticeships hon. Friend has been an active campaigner for projects have to last at least 12 months and they involve a in her local area with some success, and I know that she substantial investment by employers, so it is not for us will continue to influence the business and the local to stand in the way if employers want to invest in authority participants in her LEP. upskilling the staff they already have.

T4. [907622] Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The economy in (Lab/Co-op): The Government have a target, signed off northern Lincolnshire has had much good news in at the highest level, I believe, of achieving £1 trillion of recent weeks, but a bit of a damper was put on that this exports by 2020, doubling the current figure in five years. morning by the announcement from Lindsey oil refinery When asked at the Business, Innovation and Skills that there will be 180 redundancies. That follows Committee, a UK Trade & Investment representative 90 redundancies announced last week by Cristal Global. described it as an “energising aspiration”. Is it an energising Will the Minister assure me that everything possible will aspiration or is it a realistic, achievable target? be done by his Department and Government agencies to support the workers at this difficult time? Matthew Hancock: The target of £1 trillion of exports by 2020 is the target, and a realistic one. It is an Matthew Hancock: Absolutely. I met Total yesterday energising target, an aspiration, an ambition and a goal. and it told me of its planned announcement today. We We can get there as a country and we can reach it, but it are working with the company to ensure that if any will require a huge amount of effort. That is why trade redundancies occur, those made redundant are supported. deals such as the EU-US trade deal known as TTIP, the They will often be people with skills that are in short Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, are so supply across the nation, and I look forward to going to important in reaching that aspiration, goal and achievement. my hon. Friend’s constituency to discuss this with him and to working with him. T5. [907624] Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): The Minister responsible for life sciences will be Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May familiar with Daiichi Sankyo, an innovative drug I ask the Secretary of State and his merry men and company based in Chesham and Amersham. It is women to pay attention to an important problem? launching a novel oral anticoagulant to help prevent Many of us across the House are in favour of strokes more effectively in people who suffer with atrial apprenticeships and university technical colleges, but fibrillation. The uptake of such drugs has been we would be conning the British public if we led them repeatedly blocked by the NHS despite guidance from to suppose that apprenticeships and university technical the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence colleges on their own will help us get rid of the dreadful that calls for their use. What can the Minister do to skills shortage in this country. Will the Secretary of clear that blockage so that the drugs can be used to State look at this again? The real secret of solving this benefit our patients? problem is in the further education sector, in universities having more applied courses, and in making graduates The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, and the people coming out of colleges more fit and Innovation and Skills (George Freeman): I am indeed ready to work in industry. familiar with the great work of Daiichi Sankyo, and that of my right hon. Friend in supporting its investment Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. in her constituency. I recently had the pleasure of going This calls for across-the-board treatment. The suggestion up to open a new facility. She raises an important point, that has come from some sources that it would be and the appointment of a Minister responsible for life sensible to cut the fees for engineering and science 949 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 950 courses to £6,000 would, of course, massively undermine Matthew Hancock: We now put all procurement online. that, because it would no longer be possible to cover the Also, from this month, a new rule is coming into place: costs of those courses. not only must all procurement from Government be paid within 30 days, but the whole supply chain must be Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Will the paid within 30 days. It is a big step forward to help small Secretary of State confirm that he has asked Barclays to businesses engage in Government procurement. defer the closure of the St Agnes branch until the new protocol on last bank closures in communities where Mr David Willetts (Havant) (Con): Will the Minister the post office is not a viable alternative has been confirm that one of the best ways of getting funding agreed, which I understand will be next week? into innovative life sciences companies is for them to get contracts from the NHS earlier? He just referred to his Vince Cable: I have indeed discussed that directly very important early access review. What are the ambitions with the chief executive of Barclays, in response to my for that, and the timetable? hon. Friend’s very persistent campaigning and that of her Liberal Democrat opponent, who has been equally George Freeman: My right hon. Friend and predecessor assiduous. We recognise the need in St Agnes for a makes an important point. Since we launched the life bespoke solution, since the post office is not the ideal science strategy at the start of this Parliament, as set out vehicle, and I think we are working towards a satisfactory and led by my right hon. Friend, this country has outcome. attracted over £3.5 billion of inward investment into the sector and created more than 11,000 jobs, so something is going very right. He makes a key point: the next step Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): As the hon. Member is to ensure that our NHS is driving quicker access. We for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) pointed out, there is shall shortly be announcing the chair of the review, and an announcement today about restructuring by Total of we have already started to gather evidence. My right its facility at Lindsey oil refinery. In addition there is hon. Friend will have noticed on his recent trip to uncertainty about the future of Tata Steel Long Products America the support and the interest that it is gaining in Scunthorpe. Will the Government ensure that the overseas for driving our sector forward. necessary support is given to manufacturing industry in north Lincolnshire, so that it has a strong and prosperous Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): When the Secretary of future? State’s Department was called the Department of Trade and Industry, he called for it to be abolished, saying: Matthew Hancock: Absolutely we will. I understand “The DTI should be wound up because it doesn’t perform a that the changes announced today by Total are set to function. It has no real role anymore”. take place over a number of years, so there will be time Interestingly, his solution was not to reform the Department to ensure that we get the systems in place to support and rename it BIS; his solution was to split the duties of people who are affected, whether they stay within Total the Department between existing Government Departments or are looking for jobs elsewhere or are seeking early —he cited the Department for Work and Pensions and retirement. We will do all we can to help. the Department for Education and Skills. Which of his duties does he think should be handled by other Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I welcome the Government Departments, or what has changed his introduction of big fines for supermarkets that breach mind? Was it a ministerial salary, perhaps? the groceries supply code of practice, but I urge the Government to bring forward the review. We need to Vince Cable: I am delighted to have yet another extend the code to indirect suppliers such as dairy contribution from the leader of my parliamentary fan farmers, who are suffering greatly at the moment. They club. He has failed to observe that since I made my cannot wait another year. May we have the review much comments on the DTI a decade ago, we have acquired sooner, please? responsibility for universities, skills, science and much else. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I thank my hon. Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): A Friend for that question. I know that my hon. Friend business in my constituency received a communication the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) has from Royal Mail the week before Christmas, saying that also been raising this issue assiduously. It is one that with effect from four business weeks later, the business Members across the House are, understandably, very reply and freepost service that it had used for 10 years concerned about. The groceries code adjudicator is was to be discontinued and it would have to re-register. already proving to be a great success in her work with The business was told that if the old address was used, supermarket companies, by encouraging them to change there would be a 20p penalty per item and the item may their behaviour. We have ensured that she has, and will not be delivered. It will cost the business £10 per customer have, the power to fine as well as to launch investigations— and £10,000 in lost stationery. Is that reasonable? Should the first, of course, was launched recently. The question not the Royal Mail respond to my letter? Will the whether the remit should be extended needs to be Minister intervene? looked at, and I commit the Government to doing that. Jo Swinson: Royal Mail should certainly respond to Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) the letter that my hon. Friend sent it, and I will happily (Con): Government procurement can be used to drive take that up on his behalf. The issue that he raises goes innovation and to support our small business sector. wider. The change had been notified earlier to some How can small businesses in my constituency find out customers but that may not have happened properly in what opportunities exist to help them? this circumstance, and I shall be happy to look into it. 951 Oral Answers12 FEBRUARY 2015 Oral Answers 952

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): There were a Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I congratulate the wonderful 850 apprenticeship starts in Kettering last Government on the support that they have given to year, led ably by Tresham college in my constituency. Is satellite communications and space research companies the Skills Minister satisfied that LEPs are working as based at Goonhilly earth station in my constituency, well as they might with local further education and also on their excellent science and research consultation, establishments in pushing the apprenticeship agenda? which has an excellent section on space research. May I urge Ministers to ensure that Goonhilly is placed at the Nick Boles: My hon. Friend is right to suggest that centre of the development of space research infrastructure LEPs should take this seriously. Some are doing better in future? than others on this, but our message is clear: they have a key responsibility, working with local businesses and Vince Cable: I met my hon. Friend and a delegation colleges such as the one my hon. Friend referred to, to yesterday to discuss that. I congratulate him on the ensure that as many businesses as possible take up the stamina he has shown in pursuing the Goonhilly project, opportunity of an apprenticeship. because that is the which is now part of the regional growth fund. He has way to build the skills that his constituency and others raised wider issues about how the space policy can be need for the future. developed to bring in the private sector, and I shall discuss with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Universities, Science and Cities how we can progress The Minister gave a progress report on the Government’s that. dealing with late payment, but, according to a recent small business seminar in my constituency, it remains a Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Unemployment in bugbear. One international telecommunications company my constituency has fallen by 54% since the last general was cited which not only charges a fee to be a supplier, election. In respect of business, innovation and skills, but has 180-day payment terms. What more can we do will my right hon. Friend get his officials to look at the to name and shame and make transparent these obscene success story that is the Colchester business enterprise practices, which clobber small businesses? agency, a not-for-profit voluntary organisation which has about 50 starter workshop units helping new and Matthew Hancock: The single best thing we can do innovative fledgling businesses? about that is to pass before the end of this Parliament the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill, Matthew Hancock: Yes, absolutely. The fall in which is still going through the other place. That brings unemployment across the land, in Colchester and beyond, in transparency measures which mean that we will not is a vital sign that the long-term economic plan is name and shame just on an ad hoc basis, but have working. I very much look forward to visiting Colchester league tables of late payment performance, celebrating soon and look forward to taking up the hon. Gentleman’s the best and admonishing the worst. proposal. 953 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 954

Business of the House WEDNESDAY 4MARCH—Proceedings on the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipations And Adjustments) Bill, followed by remaining stages of the Corporation 10.29 am Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill, followed by an Opposition Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of day (unallotted half-day). There will be a debate on an the House give us the business for next week? Opposition motion, subject to be announced. THURSDAY 5MARCH— Business to be nominated by The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House the Backbench Business Committee. of Commons (Mr William Hague): The business, not for FRIDAY 6MARCH—Private Members’ Bills. next week but for the week commencing 23 February— I should also like to inform the House that the [Interruption]— yes, the next parliamentary week—will business in Westminster Hall for the remainder of February be as follows: and for 2 March will be: MONDAY 23 FEBRUARY—Remaining stages of the Serious MONDAY 23 FEBRUARY—General debate on an e-petition Lords Crime Bill [ ]. I expect my right hon. Friend the relating to ending non-stun slaughter to promote animal Prime Minister to make a statement following the European welfare. Council. THURSDAY 26 FEBRUARY—General debate on low-carbon UESDAY 24 FEBRUARY—Consideration of Lords T electricity generation. amendments to the Pension Schemes Bill, followed by consideration of an allocation of time motion, followed MONDAY 2MARCH—General debate on an e-petition by all stages of the House of Commons Commission relating to Harvey’s law. Bill, followed by motions relating to Procedure Committee reports on business in Westminster Hall, Queen’s and Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for Prince Of Wales’s consent and e-petitions, followed by a announcing the post-recess business. general debate on mental health and unemployment. On Tuesday, the Standards Committee published a The subject for this debate was recommended by the review of the standards system in the Commons, led by Backbench Business Committee. the lay members. We need radical action to restore trust WEDNESDAY 25 FEBRUARY—Opposition day (18th allotted in our political system, so I thank the Committee for day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, the report, which contains some sensible recommendations. subject to be announced. Will the Leader of the House set out how he intends to take the report forward, and will he tell me if he will act THURSDAY 26 FEBRUARY—Statement on the publication of the fourth report from the Culture, Media And Sport on my suggestion and remove the Government majority Committee on the future of the BBC, followed by on the Committee to address concerns about the debate on a motion relating to Equitable Life, followed Government protecting their own? by a general debate on epilepsy. The Select Committee Yesterday’s report from Sir Robert Francis revealed statement and subjects for debate were determined by that nearly a quarter of NHS staff have experienced the Backbench Business Committee. bullying or harassment—a problem that is all too prevalent in other workplaces across the country too. Given that FRIDAY 27 FEBRUARY—Private Members’ Bills. the Government were quick to welcome the Francis The provisional business for the week commencing report but have made it their mission to make people 2 March will include: pay to access employment rights and protection from MONDAY 2MARCH—Estimates day (2nd allotted day). bullying and arbitrary treatment everywhere else, may There will be a debate on Devolution in England: The we have a debate on the protection that Britain’s workers Case for Local Government, followed by a debate on deserve against bullying at work? May we especially the next Defence and Security Review Part Two: NATO. have a debate about the 60% fall in employment tribunal Further details will be given in the Official Report. cases since the Government introduced steep payments [The details are as follows: Devolution in England: The for access to justice in the workplace? Case for Local Government, 1st Report from the Communities Yesterday we learned that a string of Tory donors and Local Government Committee, HC 503, and the banked with the Swiss arm of HSBC, which has been Government response; Towards the next Defence and caught red-handed facilitating tax abuse. Since the Prime Security Review Part Two: NATO, 3rd Report from the Minister became leader of his party, those donors have Defence Committee, HC 358, and the Government response, given him £5 million and HSBC’s chairman, Lord Green, HC 755.] was appointed a Minister in the Government after the TUESDAY 3MARCH—Estimates day (3rd allotted day). scandal was public knowledge, with no questions asked There will be a debate on support for housing costs in about his oversight of this rogue bank. Does that not the reformed welfare system, followed by a debate on say everything about this Government? children’s and adolescents’ mental health and child and On the Government’s own estimate, uncollected taxes adolescent mental health services. Further details will rose by a massive £34 billion last year. Their sweetheart be given in the Official Report. At 7 pm the House will Swiss tax deal is full of holes and has brought in less be asked to agree all outstanding estimates. than a third of what they promised, and they have cut [The details are as follows: Support for housing costs taxes for millionaires and hedge funds, which have given in the reformed welfare system, 4th Report from the Work them £47 million since the Prime Minister became and Pensions Committee, HC 720 of Session 2013-14; leader. Children’s and adolescents’ mental health and CAMHS, With the election looming, our shameless Prime Minister 3rd Report from the Health Committee, HC 342, and the travelled to the British Chambers of Commerce to steal Government response.] a TUC slogan and suddenly declare that “Britain needs 955 Business of the House12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 956

[Ms Angela Eagle] itself, but the Government strongly support the need for the highest standards in public life. We welcome the a pay rise”. Yet this is the first Government since 1874 report, which follows the inquiry chaired by one of the who have left people worse off at the end of the Parliament independent, lay members of the Standards Committee. than they were at the beginning. While he was there, he There are now two reports from the Standards Committee even decided to channel Lord Kinnock, but I would that we need to consider and debate. We will seek an have used a different speech: “I’ll tell you what happens opportunity in due course to provide time to debate this with impossible Tory pre-election promises. They’re report, and we will then set out the Government’s view pickled into a rigid soundbite, a code, and you end up in on how the Committee’s conclusions can be taken forward. the grotesque chaos of a Tory Government—a Tory The hon. Lady raised a variety of other matters, Government!—hiring chauffeur-driven limos to scuttle including that the Chief Whip has the use of a car. She round Davos handing out huge tax breaks to its own has seen that, as we all have, in the newspapers this donors.” morning. I think one newspaper report referred to the The Prime Minister has reportedly told the Cabinet Chief Whip as a former Minister or ex-Minister, which that he is fed up of this zombie Government and that he shows a certain limited understanding on the part of wants Ministers to get back to work. Most appear to the journalists about the role of the Chief Whip in the have responded by suddenly dumping hundreds of statutory British Government. He is most certainly a Minister, instruments on the Order Paper, but the invisible man—the and he remains entitled to the use of a car. Tory Chief Whip—has responded in his own unique style. On a day when he failed to show up in Parliament— The hon. Lady said that the House rose five hours early the day before Parliament adjourned five hours early—he the other night, but there was a time when Oppositions used gave a speech on the “myth” of the zombie Parliament. to debate the benefits uprating order, the pneumoconiosis His key evidence was an increase in urgent questions compensation regulations, the mesothelioma payments under this Government. But, Mr Speaker, you grant regulations or the guaranteed minimum pensions increase urgent questions and you grant them when the Government order. They were all before the House on Monday, and are avoiding scrutiny. the Opposition chose barely to debate them. That is why the House rose five hours early. I read this morning that the Chief Whip has literally been back-seat driving, but not at the Department for The hon. Lady asked about the cartoon of me as the Education: he has been taking vanity trips in his Jaguar “bionic babe”. I do not know how much it went for, but to travel the 400 yards between Parliament and No. 10. since it is 38 years old, I had a lot more hair in the He drove teachers round the bend, he has put this place cartoon than I can display in the House today, so it is on the road to nowhere, and his Government hold the certainly a collectors’ item. record for the most U-turns. He certainly will not be The hon. Lady said that the Conservative party received allowed anywhere near our magenta battle bus. £5 million from certain donors, but she neglected to On Monday night, the Conservative black and white mention that since the Leader of the Opposition was ball raised millions of pounds and gave a whole new elected, the Labour party has received £35 million from meaning to the term “by-election”. According to the trade unions. Of the Labour candidates selected since Daily Mail, the Prime Minister partied with the kings then, 60% have union links and half of them are from and queens of sleaze, including a porn baron, the owner Unite. There is only one party in this country in which of a strip club and the boss of Ann Summers. Perhaps policies are purchased, and that is the Labour party. they should have changed their theme to black, white There is no doubt about that. and a little blue. This year, in a doomed bid to limit the On tax avoidance, under the rules left by Labour, PR disaster, they banned ostentatious displays of tuxedos thousands of the richest home buyers did not pay stamp and champagne, but they did still auction a 500-bird duty—they now do; foreigners did not pay any capital pheasant and partridge shoot for tens of thousands of gains tax—they now do; and private equity managers pounds; a bronze statue of Margaret Thatcher for paid lower tax rates than their cleaners—we have got rid £210,000; and, hilariously, a holiday in Cobblers Cove. of that. The previous Government left behind a terrible I have been inspecting the auction lots and if I had mess of tax loopholes that this Government have now more money than sense I could have bought shoe closed. shopping with the Home Secretary or a personalised With the addition of the £100 billion in extra revenue cartoon from the Leader of the House’s private collection, as a result of action on tax avoidance and evasion, not where he is depicted as a “bionic babe”. Perhaps he only are the Government finances stronger, but it has could tell us what that went for. I could also have paid been another good week for the British economy, which to take on the welfare Secretary in an endurance race Labour Members do not like to raise and about which across hills, woods, streams, hedges and hay bales. Surely they do not like to ask for debates. There was strong I would be certain of winning that one, because, judging manufacturing growth in January, there is an increased by his welfare reforms, that man has no hope of finishing growth forecast from the National Institute of Economic anything. and Social Research, and my right hon. Friend the I gather that the Liberal Democrats are organising Chancellor has just announced £5 billion of road and their own fundraiser, too: instead of an auction, they rail investment for the midlands. The hon. Lady criticised are going to sell off their principles to the highest the Prime Minister for going to the British Chambers of bidder. Commerce conference, but it is no wonder that the Leader of the Opposition hid in his office while the Mr Hague: I am always grateful to the hon. Lady for conference took place just a few hundred yards away. her questions. She asked about the Standards Committee They would have to hide him from 60 million people to report. The decision on it is primarily one for the House have a real hope of winning the general election in May. 957 Business of the House12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 958

The hon. Lady knows the confidence I have in her. I Mr Hague: I did indeed make a memorable visit to call for her to have more control over her colleagues. Southend—it was so memorable that I actually remember She would not have offended the country’s nuns on it and will never forget it. I am a big fan of Southend, television a week ago. If she had been in charge of the and it will never have a greater champion than my hon. biggest campaign on women’s issues ever launched by Friend. As he knows, city status is a civic honour the Labour party, she would not have led it from a occasionally granted by the monarch to mark certain 17-seater minibus. In the week of “Fifty Shades of royal anniversaries. I recall that Southend submitted an Grey”, it is 50 shades of pink embarrassment for Labour enthusiastic and strong application at the diamond Members. jubilee. That was not successful, but Southend did succeed in securing a significant city deal that will provide it with further investment. There are no plans at Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): With other the moment for a new competition on city status, but I colleagues, my right hon. Friend rightly criticised the am sure Southend will have another opportunity to bid delay before the setting up of the Chilcot inquiry into for it in the future. the Iraq war. Is he not perturbed that there is now a similar delay by our own Government in considering the lessons from the war in Afghanistan? I initiated a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Thanks to the short debate yesterday, in which the Minister for the Backbench Business Committee there will be the first Armed Forces lamentably failed to answer any of the full-scale debate on Yemen on 24 February. The Leader questions. We will have a strategic defence and security of the House will recall his pivotal role in ensuring that review this autumn. I urge my right hon. Friend to get a Yemen remains on the path to democracy, including a grip of the Government so that the Ministry of Defence memorable visit to Sana’a to meet the President. He will and other Departments can begin a study on this important also know that the American and French embassies, subject now. and yesterday the British embassy, have been evacuated. May we have a quarterly statement on the situation in Yemen and the Gulf, as we do on Afghanistan, because Mr Hague: My hon. Friend initiated an important that country plays an important role in our national debate. He is experienced in military matters, and I security? assure him that in all the Government’s deliberations, including weekly deliberations in the National Security Mr Hague: The right hon. Gentleman is assiduous in Council, we are learning the lessons of what has happened pursuing matters relating to Yemen, and as he says, as in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. It is possible to see Foreign Secretary I was heavily involved in events there the benefits of learning those lessons in the way we have and visited that country. We have temporarily suspended worked in Somalia in recent years, for example, with a embassy operations in Sana’a, and withdrawn diplomatic different model of intervention. However, it will be vital staff until the security situation becomes clearer—as over the coming months to continue to learn lessons, the House will appreciate, that is a consequence of and I will convey the importance of what my hon. recent events. It is good that the Backbench Business Friend has said to my ministerial colleagues. Committee has chosen that topic, and important that my Foreign Office colleagues keep the House up to date Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does on Yemen and developments throughout the Gulf. I will the Leader of the House recall a fabulous part of tell them of the right hon. Gentleman’s point, and England called Yorkshire? It lies between, and is worried remind them of the need to have regular updates in the about, the increasing power and wealth of London and House. the south, and the growing power and independence of Scotland, since Yorkshire has very little of any of that. Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): We Does he welcome the manifesto for Yorkshire by the had a rather unedifying debate in this House on tax all-party group on Yorkshire and Northern Lincolnshire, evasion, but there has also been enormous public concern “Devolution for Prosperity”, and is it about time we about the issue. May we have a debate on the role of had a debate on Yorkshire and its ability to speak with audit? Large accountancy firms are being paid enormous one voice and have accountable government? amounts of money for external audit, yet they do not seem to notice what is happening in the banks and they do not seem to notice the tax arrangements of their Mr Hague: I have just announced an estimates day corporate customers. I wonder whether they are actually debate on devolution in England and the case for local fulfilling their statutory duties in terms of regularity. government, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be Should the House not ask the accountancy companies able to make his case in that debate. As a proud exactly what they are doing for that money? Yorkshireman, it has always been my view that we do not aspire to govern Yorkshire—we aspire to govern the Mr Hague: My hon. Friend makes his point very world, and it is important that we retain that global role powerfully. A good case can be made for a debate. After in Yorkshire’s involvement in world politics. today, we have only 22 sitting days before Dissolution, so I am not in a position freely to distribute debates on Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Will my various topics, but he is able to pursue this matter at right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the criteria various question times and through the Backbench for the creation of cities? Given that he once made a Business Committee. memorable visit to Southend, does he agree that it is absolutely ridiculous that the place is not already a city, Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): May we have an especially since it is generally regarded as the finest urgent debate on Burma? I understand there is no time seaside resort in the country, if not the world? for constitutional reform before the Burmese elections, 959 Business of the House12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 960

[Valerie Vaz] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): May I join my right hon. Friend in aspiring for Yorkshire but in a written answer I was told that the British to govern the world? Does he accept that we are slightly Government are giving money to the Burmese army, handicapped by not necessarily having a good mobile some members of which were responsible for raping signal in the hills, and that in some cases, in his area and and killing two teachers in Kachin state. Will the Leader mine, just under 20% will still not have broadband? of the House look into this matter? Given the short window for applying for basic farm payments, will he join me in applying for a debate in this Mr Hague: These are very important issues. Under Parliament on superfast broadband for north Yorkshire? the auspices of the preventing sexual violence initiative, which I continue to work on, we have worked hard to Mr Hague: North Yorkshire has led the way on bring Burma into the initiative by getting the Burmese superfast broadband in rural areas, which is a great Government to sign up to its principles. That is partly credit to local councillors and others who have worked so that the world will be able to expect a better performance on that. However, as my hon. Friend rightly says, there and behaviour from the Burmese army. It is always are areas where it remains difficult to provide and where difficult to make decisions about whether to give training mobile phone coverage is not good. My right hon. to an army where crimes have been committed or alleged, Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and but part of the argument for that training is to ensure Sport is doing fantastic work on addressing the lack of that such crimes are not committed in future. That is mobile coverage in parts of this country. It is DCMS why such decisions have been made in the Foreign and Question Time on the first Thursday back after next Commonwealth Office. FCO questions are on 3 March. week’s recess, on 26 February, so she might wish to The hon. Lady may be able to pursue this matter pursue the matter then. further then. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Leader Mr Speaker: There can never be too many debates on of the House will have seen the tragic news this week Burma in this House. that another 300 migrants have died in the Mediterranean trying to get from Libya to Lampedusa, while only 105 were saved by the intervention of Mare Nostrum on Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The number of behalf of the Italian navy. At one level, it is easy—and injuries and fatalities in the agriculture and farming correct—to blame the people traffickers for forcing on sector is still too high: there were 27 deaths last year, to boats people who later die. However, thousands have including in Shropshire. May we have a debate on how died in the Mediterranean fleeing war, poverty and the National Farmers Union, the Health and Safety oppression from all over the middle east and north Executive and the industry as a whole, including the Africa. Will the Prime Minister raise this issue at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, European Council? Mare Nostrum was trying to save can work better together to ensure a reduction in fatalities people, but the EU has responded by withdrawing it and injuries? and instead putting in place a frontier force whose purpose is to keep people out, rather than save lives. Mr Hague: My hon. Friend raises a very important Can we, first, raise the question of the source of this issue. The Health and Safety Executive is working with migration—the poverty, desperation and oppression—and, the industry to try to reduce the number of accidents secondly, reinstate the principle of saving people at sea, across agriculture. It delivers an annual programme of rather than waiting for them to drown and wringing our safety and health awareness days targeted at small and hands? Vincent Cochetel, from the UNHCR, said Europe medium-sized farms, and it works at the European level had done “too little, too late”. Can we now put that on improvements to the design and maintenance of right and act? agricultural machinery. This is an important issue and there are still too many deaths and injuries in agriculture. Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman raises an important A debate would allow us to consider what else could be issue. The whole House will be conscious of these done. There is a good case for such a debate. heartbreaking reports and the extensive loss of life not only on this occasion but on many other occasions in Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Will the Leader the Mediterranean. The Prime Minister is going today of the House consider a debate on the funding of to the European Council and, as I said in the business political parties, or perhaps he will explain why he statement, he will make a statement a week on Monday, believes that 10,000 individuals giving £10 each to a on the House’s first day back, so the hon. Gentleman political party is an affront to democracy, but a single might wish to pursue the matter directly with the Prime donor giving £100,000 to a political party—the right Minister. This immense problem is the reason we have hon. Gentleman’s party—to shoot 500 pheasants is an done so much work on trying to stabilise north Africa. exercise of civic responsibility? We have not yet been successful in many parts of north Africa, but that is why this is such a focus of our policy. Mr Hague: We have had many debates on party The EU has decided on its approach to migrant boats at political funding over the years. They have often generated sea. However, this is a very legitimate issue, and he can a great deal more heat than light from all sides. We are continue to raise it on the Floor of the House. all able to make our points in such debates and I remind the hon. Gentleman that 69% of all Labour’s donations Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): Will under its current leader have come from trade unions. my right hon. Friend find time for a short debate on the In any debate, that is a point we on this side of the UK biopharmaceutical industry, particularly its dependence House will certainly want to make. on the border inspection post at London Heathrow? 961 Business of the House12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 962

My constituent Jenny Murray, of Antibody Production Could my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on Services in Wilden, has raised with me the impact of the this matter, so that we can hear the Government’s proposed imminent closure of the private facility at the position? airport. I would be grateful for the opportunity to raise the wider issues facing very large pharmaceutical companies Mr Hague: Having been nice about Southend, I am as well as the smaller niche companies that, in my able to speak up for Cleethorpes as well. I visited and constituency, demonstrate a diverse and rural economy enjoyed the beach at Cleethorpes as a child, so I can under this Government. absolutely recommend this resort as well. Other hon. Members will agree with what my hon. Friend says Mr Hague: Given the impending end of the Parliament, about the ability to appeal to the planning inspectorate, there might not be time for such a debate, but my right but that is a matter that would, of course, have to be hon. Friend raises an important point. The Government pursued with the Department for Communities and appreciate the importance that the biopharmaceutical Local Government. As with so many other subjects, I industry attaches to the maintenance of inspection facilities cannot promise a debate before the Dissolution at the for animal products at Heathrow airport. I understand end of the next month, but my hon. Friend will be able that discussions are taking place between various interested to pursue his desire for a debate through all the normal parties, and the Government will follow developments channels of Adjournment and Backbench Business closely and provide any advice needed to assist the Committee debates during the remaining weeks of the possible development of other animal product inspection Parliament. centres at the airport. I will also ensure that my colleagues at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): May we have a Affairs are aware of his remarks. debate on the fragmentation of the NHS at local trusts, where the silo mentality is impacting negatively on Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Yesterday at Prime patients, as shown in the appalling and disgraceful case Minister’s questions, in answer to a question about the of what is happening in the Haven in my constituency? learning tax on sixth-form colleges, the Prime Minister The Haven is a success story being destroyed by NHS appeared to say he would take the matter away and have mandarins, so may we have a debate on the reality of a look at it. May we have a statement on fair funding for local NHS silo decision making rather than the adoption 16 to 18-year-olds, whatever institution they are in? of a “one NHS” approach. Mr Hague: I cannot add so quickly to what the Prime Minister said at Prime Minister’s questions, but the Mr Hague: This is, of course, an important subject, hon. Gentleman continues to raise the issue assiduously, but we have had many debates on the NHS and statements and I will certainly remind my colleagues in the Department by the Health Secretary in recent weeks. I have no doubt for Education that he has raised it again. there will be more, and that my hon. Friend will be able to pursue these issues. We are very much trying to get Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): The Government are away from any silo decision making. The NHS will to be congratulated on initiating the independent feasibility transfer £3.2 billion to social care services over this study into the resettlement of those in the British Indian Parliament, and my hon. Friend will know that, importantly, Ocean Territory. As my right hon. Friend will know, the we are introducing from April a £5.3 billion pooled report was published earlier this week. May we have a budget for health and social care—something that the debate on the resettlement of the Chagos islanders on Opposition have not wanted to introduce. We are bringing the Floor of the House at the earliest possible moment in this better care fund, and I hope it will lead to major and in Government time? improvements to meet my hon. Friend’s concerns.

Mr Hague: My hon. Friend always speaks up for the Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): The need for concerns of the Chagos islanders. This is an important better transport in my Kingswood constituency is a report, a feasibility study that I initiated when I was serious concern that needs to be addressed if we are to Foreign Secretary, and, as he says, it has now been prevent local roads into Bristol, already inadequate published. I know that the Minister of State, Foreign through getting jammed up, from getting worse. We and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the also need a M4 link to the Avon ring road, on which I Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), plans to meet my continue to campaign, and a better bus network because hon. Friend and other members of the Chagos all-party many of my constituents are struggling to get across parliamentary group on 23 February to listen to their from Kingswood to Southmead. Can time be found for views ahead of any Government decision. I cannot a debate on transport in the Bristol region, so that all offer a debate at the moment, but that meeting might local MPs can discuss the need to improve our local lead to a decision on how to take things forward in areas’ road, rail and bus networks? Parliament. Mr Hague: My hon. Friend will be aware that under Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): First, to correct this Government we are seeing major investment in the a point from a few minutes ago, it is of course Cleethorpes road and rail network. A programme of investment for that is the country’s premier seaside resort. I do not the coming five years adds up to about £56 billion, know whether the Leader of the House noticed my which is benefiting all parts of the country.My hon. Friend ten-minute rule Bill, proposed on 13 January, which will be able to pursue with Ministers at the Department suggested that greater fairness be brought into the for Transport the specific needs of the Bristol area, for planning process by allowing objectors to be able in which he always speaks up so well. It is open to him to certain circumstances to appeal to the planning inspectorate. pursue such debates through all the normal means. 963 Business of the House12 FEBRUARY 2015 Business of the House 964

Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con) rose— The police treatment centre in my constituency is a fantastic charity that works with ill and injured police Mr Speaker: What a delicious choice! Mr Peter Bone. officers to help them to return to work It recently received about £500,000 from LIBOR fines, which it is Mr Bone: As you know, Mr Speaker, Question Time using to create a new outdoor exercise area and generally is one of the most important times in the week for refurbish its facilities. Would it be possible for a statement Oppositions, because it enables them to scrutinise Ministers to be made giving details of where all those fines have of the Crown. However, some very bizarre things are been used, so that we can see which good causes are now happening. All the questions in the second half of benefiting throughout the country? business questions today have come from Government Members, but over the last few weeks something has Mr Hague: That is not a bad idea. The latest allocation been happening to the most important Question Time from the LIBOR fund, of £35 million, adds to the of the week, Prime Minister’s Question Time. After the money we have already given to military good causes Leader of the Opposition has given his views and been benefiting armed forces personnel and their families, beaten up by the Prime Minister, swathes of Labour and veterans, and to many other good causes. The Members disappear. Yesterday a third of the seats were police treatment centre in my hon. Friend’s constituency empty, while poor Conservative Members were having is another good example. This week I announced the to stand. Just to prove that the Chief Whip is a Minister, creation, with a £1 million donation from the LIBOR will he make a statement giving dispensation to Conservative fund, of our first academic centre on women, peace and Members so that they can fill the empty seats to make it security at the London School of Economics—something look as though there is an Opposition? a bit more substantial than a pink bus going around the country—and we will continue to use LIBOR money to Mr Hague: That is a characteristically creative idea benefit such excellent causes. from my hon. Friend, although I think that the spectacle of Conservative Members crossing to the other side of Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a statement the House might have its disadvantages. He is right to from the Secretary of State for International Development draw attention to the vast expanse of space that exists on aid to India? On 9 November 2012, The Guardian on the Opposition Benches today—as it has during was one of many newspapers to report that many debates—and develops quite rapidly during Prime “The government will stop all financial aid to India by 2015”. Minister’s Question Time. It makes one wonder whether It now seems that the Government are stopping aid to there is some zombie meeting place where they have all the Indian Government, but are continuing to supply gone to have lunch, and whether they have to get there other aid to India. Given that India has its own space before the end of Prime Minister’s Question Time. programme and is spending $35 billion a year on defence alone, surely we should be telling the country that it is Mr Hollobone: I bring good news from Kettering, responsible for looking after its own people, rather than where Mr Graham Parr and his wife Karen are celebrating saying “Keep on spending all this money on building up the fifth year of successful trading of their business, your military arsenal while we look after the people for Bright Sparks. Over the last five years, they have increased whom you should be responsible.” I believe that most of their turnover threefold and increased their customer my constituents thought it was right to end aid to India, base 10 times. They are now looking to appoint their and will be horrified to discover that that is no longer first apprentice. Can we have a statement from a the case. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Minister about the importance of small, family-run businesses Mr Hague: There has been a big change under this such as Bright Sparks not only in generating the wealth Government. On coming to office, we found that some that this country enjoys and can then spend to improve British aid was going to Russia and China, for instance, public services, but as an engine of growth to provide but DFID has stopped those programmes. What the more jobs for our young people? Secretary of State for International Development announced in 2012 was that all financial aid grants Mr Hague: As ever, my hon. Friend brings good news from the United Kingdom to India would cease in 2015, from Kettering. That is not only good for Kettering but after which DFID would provide support only in the representative of what is happening in many parts of form of private sector expertise and technical assistance, this country.Since 2010, there have been 760,000 additional and that is exactly what is happening. The financial aid businesses in the UK and the great majority are small, grants to India will end this year, and any new projects entrepreneurial businesses. Since 2010, 2.1 million will be supported by development capital investment apprenticeships have started in the UK, and many of and technical assistance. No doubt DFID will be able those apprentices are working with small businesses. to expand on exactly what that involves for the benefit That is why it is so important to continue to have of my hon. Friend. policies that promote business and employment, rather than the deep hostility to business that we see on the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) rose— Labour Benches. 965 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 966

The solution that I and other hon. Members have Backbench Business proposed has several advantages. It is simple, it would involve an easy change to the law and it would not Pubs and Planning Legislation require any more bureaucracy. That is in contrast to other measures that we have considered such as article [Relevant document: Sixth Report from the Communities 4s and assets of community value, which are bureaucratic, and Local Government Committee, Community are difficult for the public to access and to find out Rights, HC 262.] about, and cost significantly more money. The measure we are proposing is consistent. We protect other types of building in this way, which many 11.11 am would argue do not have the community significance of Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I beg to pubs, or at least do not have any more significance than move, pubs. Therefore, we would not be singling out pubs for special treatment; we would simply be applying to pubs That this House notes New Economics Foundation research the type of treatment we already permit for other valued showing that local economies benefit twice as much from a pound community facilities. spent in a pub rather than a supermarket; expresses concern that valued and viable pubs are being lost due to permitted development rights which allow pubs to be demolished or turned into supermarkets Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The hon. and other uses without planning permission, denying local people Lady is making a strong argument. Does she agree that any say; notes that supermarket chains are deliberately targeting pubs and further notes CAMRA research that two pubs a week this is in accordance with the Government’s own localism are converted into supermarkets; supports CAMRA’SPub Matters principles? It is hardly revolutionary, and in terms of campaign calling for an end to permitted development rights on saving money the alternative proposed by the Government pubs; notes that any change of use to a nightclub, laundrette or of listing pubs as assets of community value incurs a theatre requires planning permission, making it odd to refuse considerable cost while this is a simpler, more cost-effective pubs the same status; notes plans to remove permitted development way to ensure protection. rights from pubs listed as Assets of Community Value (ACVs), and calls on the Government to announce how and when this will happen; notes, however, that pubs achieving ACV status is not as Charlotte Leslie: I completely agree. This is the kind simple as Ministers have suggested, with the requirement for local of localism the Government have been pushing very communities to provide boundaries and plans and that every pub strongly in other areas, empowering local authorities must be listed separately making it unrealistic for communities to protect all valued pubs; further notes that each ACV application and empowering the planning system. Although I can costs local authorities over a thousand pounds, and listing all see where they are coming from with the concept of the valued UK pubs as ACVs would cost millions of pounds and asset of community value, it is much more expensive create significant bureaucracy; and therefore calls on the Government and much more bureaucratic. I am also concerned that to make a simpler change and put pubs into the sui generis it is inequitable for the communities whose pubs it seeks category so that communities can comment on a proposal to to protect in that it will be easier for those communities convert or demolish a pub. that are more engaged in the political process and find it I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting easier to be so—such as those where English is the first, the time for this important debate, which probably rather than the second, language—to find out how to affects every constituency. I pay special tribute to the make the pub an asset of community value. Others may hon. Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) not find it so easy. I am therefore concerned that that and for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). This is a mechanism may result in an inequitable protection of cross-party motion on something that is incredibly common community assets that are equally loved and valued sense and popular throughout the country. across different areas. The Government have done a lot on pubs, but there is It is surprising that the Government do not seem to still a problem that needs solving, and every Member be taking the same view of localism on this one occasion could give examples to show the Government the as they are in other areas. Because I believe in the importance of the measure we are proposing. Every Government’s localism agenda, I urge them to rethink week, 31 pubs are closing and two are converted into this and roll out their concept of localism that they have supermarkets, with absolutely no chance for the community been pushing so effectively over the last four years to to have its say. this item in planning. We had a vote on the issue two weeks ago when we attempted to amend the Infrastructure Bill. Sadly, we Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I congratulate my hon. were defeated, but that does not change the fact that Friend on her engagement in this subject and on the many of us remain completely convinced that we need work she has done on pubs along with the hon. Member to move pubs into a planning use class of their own—the for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), and I was sui generis planning class, for those of us who love our very proud to vote for the market rate alternative. My Latin—to protect them properly. That would not mean only concern about what she is proposing is that if a making an exception to any rule; it would not be an pub is struggling and could be readily used for another unusual thing to do. It would simply apply to pubs the purpose, the banks will allow it some leeway to give it kind of protections that exist for slightly counter-intuitive more time to turn its fortunes around because they will things in many ways, such as laundrettes, night clubs, be able to get their money back, whereas if an alternative petrol stations and scrap yards. It seems an extraordinary use was less certain, they may pull the plug immediately. omission that pubs are not included in that planning Can she reassure me that her proposal would not lead category and that the Government put such energy into to pubs that are struggling having the plug pulled on preventing them from being so. them earlier than would otherwise be the case? 967 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 968

Charlotte Leslie: As ever, my hon. Friend makes a I reiterate my bewilderment and confusion that the good point. I do not think that would be the case, and it Government are not embracing what seems to be a is certainly not the case in respect of other facilities to common-sense measure. Our proposal does not involve which this applies. Another Government objection to any exceptions to any rules; it would simply roll out an this idea is that it would result in boarded-up pubs. That existing state of affairs to an asset of community value— is certainly not the case. One of the major merits of this with small letters, not capital letters—that it is intuitive proposal is, simply, that it is fair. It gives communities to protect. I am simply bewildered that the Government the ability to have their say, but if a pub is genuinely have expended so much political capital in defending unviable it would be allowed to fail and would have what appears to be a complex solution in relation to planning permission granted, because local authorities something that we all want to see happen. have every incentive not to see boarded-up properties. We do not see the high streets littered with boarded-up Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): It is a laundrettes. pleasure to be working with my hon. Friend again, and I am delighted that we have secured this debate. I shall I think we could all name pubs in our constituencies not go into the huge amount of bureaucracy and enormous that are unviable and which the community does not costs involved in the Government’s very partial solution, need, and which perhaps historically have been run so but does she share my concern that a lot of right hon. badly for many years that it is hard to pick them up and and hon. Members seem not to understand that many change their reputation, and which are turned to other of the pubs that are being lost, by being turned into uses that are welcomed in the community. The Foresters supermarkets and so on without the need for planning pub in my constituency was turned into a supermarket. permission, are in many cases not only viable but trading That is not something I would generally celebrate, but it profitably at the time? This is predatory purchasing; it is has not been the end of the world. It has been a change not a change of market. Those pubs are not failing. that many people have welcomed, and our proposal would not in any way stop this kind of change taking Charlotte Leslie: Absolutely; this is not about a change place. It would simply allow people their say in the of market. What is so frustrating is that we could all list planning procedure before it takes place. examples of profitable, viable, popular pubs that have There are many local examples, and I am sure hon. been taken over through predatory purchasing. Our Members could list ones in their own constituencies, proposal would play a significant part in stopping the where we have lost valued pubs of community value. aggressive consumption of pubs that the public value The Bourne End in Brentry in my constituency was and want to keep. They are at the heart of our high demolished very quickly and many in the community streets and are massively important for employment. wanted the chance to have their say. There was nowhere They also promote healthier drinking habits, compared near enough time to list it as an asset of community with going to the supermarket, buying enormous packs value. The developers simply came in and it was gone. of cut-price booze and consuming them at home or on a park bench. Grahame M. Morris: On the Government’s suggestion Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The hon. Lady has that local authorities should list pubs that are genuinely just made the excellent point that the Government are valued as an asset of community value, is the hon. Lady trying to get people to stop binge drinking, and that aware of the number of pubs that would be protected in responsible landlords do not allow binge drinking in that way out of the 48,000 in total? I am sure that she is, their local community pubs. However, the loss of those because she will have read the briefings from the Campaign community pubs to supermarkets is providing an outlet for Real Ale and the Fair Deal For YourLocal campaign. for yet more binge drinking to be achieved.

Charlotte Leslie: The hon. Gentleman prompts me in Charlotte Leslie: The hon. Gentleman describes the a timely way. As I understand it—he will correct me if I contrast between the two options perfectly. Pubs prevent am wrong—the number of pubs that currently have the kind of binge drinking that is now causing a public asset of community value status is around 600. That health crisis, and a mental health crisis, in many of our speaks for itself in regard to the efficacy, accessibility communities. They also create inter-generational dialogue, and ease of the Government’s measure. I will come and many pubs now have to be eating establishments to back to that point. be successful, which promotes eating alongside drinking. I reiterate that I am confused by the Government’s Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I shall solution, and I feel sorry for the Minister for having to not be able to take part in the debate later, owing to an defend that policy. It has already been decided, but I unavoidable meeting. I speak as a life member of CAMRA, just do not see the advantage in the Government sticking and as a wine drinker. Ought we not to remember that so stubbornly to a decision that seems to make no the term “public house” suggests that the public have an practical sense whatever and, in the run-up to the interest in such places? Does my hon. Friend agree that election, no political sense either. I am simply bemused. more pressure needs to be put on the Government in That is why I have been glad to be able to work cross- order to help them to realise that it would be popular all party with other Members on proposing such a valuable round if the public had an opportunity to express their change. I am further bemused because the Government views on a proposed change of use? It would not be an have done a lot for pubs and it is not as though we are unnecessary hindrance to the normal changes of market not a pub-friendly Government. I am very proud of or other patterns of behaviour. what we have achieved on pubs, which is why it is such a shame that in the final hours of this Parliament, when Charlotte Leslie: As ever, my hon. Friend makes his we are about to call time, the Government are not point pithily; it would have taken me much longer to finishing with a flourish and doing something that will make that point. We are talking about public houses. really make a difference to our communities. 969 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 970

The Government have ended the beer duty escalator get the commitment to a review in 12 months’ time, no and made cuts in beer duty, which is all very welcome to matter how Parliament and the Government stand then, pubs, landlords and customers across the country; we that would be at least some cold comfort to those of us have made jobs tax cuts for small businesses—pubs who feel that common sense has been denied in this employ a lot of young people, with, I believe, half the instance. people employed in pubs being between the ages of 16 and 25; we have managed to get through, helped in Sir Peter Bottomley: I am glad that my right hon. particular by the drive and determination of the hon. Friend spoke first, because his point was perhaps even Member for Leeds North West, reform to the pubco more substantial than mine, which is quite substantial. regulations, so that the predatory nature of the largest Perhaps by speaking to my hon. Friend, through you, pubcos can be mitigated; and we have put in community Mr Speaker, the Minister might hear that we would like rights to buy and challenge. All that is very welcome to get from him at the end of the debate an answer as to and we are obviously a pub-friendly Government, which whether the deregulation unit has actually looked at is why I simply do not understand why such resistance is what the cost is for each successful application to make being put up to this measure. a pub an asset of community value, what the effort The Government have offered us a concession of an required is and why so much effort is required from the improvement on the asset of community value arrangement, local authority as well. The costs ought to put on those whereby if pubs are assets of community value, planning who are trying to get the change of use of the pub. The permission will be required for a change of use. I Minister has a good reason to say that he, his party and sincerely hope, however, that the Government revisit the whole coalition Government stand up for making our suggestion after the election—sadly there is not life easier and putting the burdens where they should going to be time to do it now. I reiterate the problems be, which is on the person who wants to change things, that hon. Members have explored on assets of community not on those who want to keep them as they are—I value. In the debate on the Infrastructure Bill, the speak as a good Conservative. Government said, “Oh well, you only need 21 people to put their names on a piece of paper and that’s it, bingo, Charlotte Leslie: I thank my hon. Friend very much, you’ve got an asset of community value.” That was and he reminds me that I made an error and should misleading because the reality is a lot more complicated, have gone through Mr Speaker earlier. I profusely apologise a lot more bureaucratic and far less accessible than the for that. It seems strange for a Government of the impression that was given by Ministers to Members, people to have a default position whereby the people do who then voted accordingly, thinking that if they get not get a say; the default position should be that people 21 names from the community down on a piece of A4, do get a say, and I shall reiterate my bewilderment until everything is dandy and “everything is awesome”—to I am blue in the face. We need particular answers from quote “The LEGO Movie”. The process is not like that the Government following our discussions on the at all; it is time-consuming. I urge every Member to run Infrastructure Bill. Most importantly, with regard to a campaign, perhaps with their local newspaper—we the Government’s recent movement, which is not nearly also hope we will get national support for this—to get enough but is welcome none the less, we need to know their pubs listed as assets of community value, because when it will be brought forward, because we have very I do not see how that is going to happen without a very little time left. It has to be introduced before the election. concerted effort. Indeed, there was a commitment in the debate to do just that, so I hope the Minister will tell us exactly when it Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con) rose— will happen. If he does not, this House will have been very much let down, and I know that he is not the kind Sir Peter Bottomley rose— of person who would want to do that. What will the Government do to make the asset of Charlotte Leslie: I am overwhelmed. I shall give way community value process much easier for councils and to my right hon. Friend first. communities to take up so that it can have real effect? As Members, we are often on the ground in our Alistair Burt: I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing communities and we know that there has to be a game- the debate and apologise for not being here at its changing revolution to the way in which the process is start—it came slightly earlier than I thought it would. communicated and delivered. It needs to be as accessible On the basis that the Government are unlikely to make as possible because it is a democratic way of protecting a concession today, would it be useful to ask the Minister our pubs. whether he accepts that if colleagues do exactly as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte How will the Department for Communities and Local Leslie) suggests—I have said in my constituency that I Government help publicise the change, so that more will support any community group wishing to follow communities take it up? Members have indicated that this course of action—and after 12 months we have not they will do their utmost to publicise the scheme, but if made a significant difference to the number of pubs the Government believe that the policy should be accessible given this protection, the Government will look at this to communities they have to make it so. More detail on issue again? Might we seek a concession from the Minister how we do that would be welcome. today to review this in 12 months’ time if what the I very much hope—as the Minister can probably Government propose is not really working? tell—that the Government will look again at this solution. It makes common sense and is so much in line with Charlotte Leslie: I thank my right hon. Friend for his everything the Government have done, both as a localist excellent suggestion, and I put it directly to the Minister. Government who believe in empowering the people, The current state of affairs is not good, but if we could and a Government who are friendly to pubs. I would 971 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 972

[Charlotte Leslie] Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and I thank her for her support and for that of the appreciate some reassurance from the Government on Backbench Business Committee. She raises an important what they will do to address this situation, which is not point about a weakness in the ACV system for pubs. A ideal by any means. I would be grateful for a small move lot of the time, smaller breweries and smaller pub in the right direction. I hope the Minister’s ears have companies cannot buy pubs. This is not all about been opened further to our suggestions, which are after community ownership: these companies are trying to all common sense. buy pubs, they want to buy them and to make a success of them, but they are not because of the ridiculous 11.31 am permitted development rights. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): It is a Natascha Engel: Absolutely, and those are the unforeseen real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bristol consequences of such legislation. We are just asking for North West (Charlotte Leslie). We certainly welcomed a level playing field within the planning laws. her application for this debate at the Backbench Business Committee. I am really glad that the environment is I want to come back to a point raised by my hon. calmer today than it was two weeks ago when we last Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) debated this matter. I am sorry that her amendment was about the amount of money this system costs a local defeated so narrowly, but it did demonstrate the strength authority at a time when district councils, which are tiny of feeling across the House. As she says, pubs are not with small budgets, have had their budgets slashed and just buildings where alcohol is sold, but community cut to the bone. The amount of red tape involved in hubs where people meet, relax and socialise. Pubs have seeing the process of applying and receiving asset of done a lot to ensure that they reach out to their communities. community value status through is onerous. As I have They are now a place for, among other things, knitting said, our pub has petitioned the local authority and circles and salsa dancing. It is unbelievable what happens with luck, at the beginning of March, it will suspend the in pubs today. whole process. That is very stressful for members of the local community and this is a very difficult time for As the hon. Lady says, about 30 pubs a weeks are them. That is the problem: they are running against the closing. It is often the case that they are closing because clock. They have jobs and lots of other things in their they are not used or because the demographic has busy lives, and they do not necessarily have the time to changed. Everybody supports the idea that they should commit to such things in the way that pubcos, property not be boarded up but used for something else. Her developers and others do when they try to buy these suggestion, and what the Opposition have been calling pubs and turn them into supermarkets. for, is perfectly sensible. We should give local communities a say in what happens to their pub, in the way that they I want to say a big thank you to Viky Muddiman, would if it were a nightclub, a theatre, or, as the Library who is running the “Save our Welly” campaign, to BBC briefing says, a scrapyard. Local communities would get Radio Sheffield, which has covered the issue at great a say in the change of use from a scrapyard to a length, and to The Chesterfield Post as well. I wish all supermarket, so why not a pub? those pubs that are applying for asset of community value status the best of luck in doing so, but it would be The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) raised much better if we could get a quick change in the an important point. Many pubs are heavily used. This is planning laws to equalise the system, ensure that all about not whether a pub is used, but whether the brewery, pubs are playing on a level playing field and give locals the pubco, or the property developing company that a say in what happens to their pubs. owns these pubs as assets can make more money out of them by selling them to supermarkets or by using them 11.38 am as pubs. That is the key issue that I want to get across today. Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): I, too, congratulate I am involved in a campaign in New Whittington, in my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West North East Derbyshire, where the Wellington pub is, at (Charlotte Leslie) on introducing this important debate this very moment, under threat of being turned into a and the Backbench Business Committee on granting it. supermarket. I just wanted to talk a little about what I have seen quite a lot of the workings of the pubco happens when a pub applies to be an asset of community trade in my role on the Business, Innovation and Skills value. It is not straightforward as the Government Committee during work on our various reports. It has would have us believe. We helped to get asset of community become quite clear that many large pub companies are value status for another pub, The Angel at Spinkhill, really property-owning companies. The fact that their and it was incredibly stressful. Spinkhill is tiny and New properties tend to be pubs is rather a sideline from their Whittington is not much bigger. People love going to point of view. The companies are heavily leveraged and their pub, but unlike many of the property developing in debt and are looking at their assets to see what is the companies and pubcos they do not have the time, best way of working the building assets, rather than money or power to navigate a complex system to get running them as pub chains, as we would like them to. that status, which only protects the pub from being sold I am pleased that the industry will be regulated and for six months, giving the local community a chance to that the Government have taken up the recommendations buy it and to run it as a co-op or as a community of my Committee and are introducing an independent facility. That is not necessarily what they want to do. adjudicator to ensure that rules are followed to prevent They want to have a pub, but running it themselves is the exploitation of the remaining landlords in the pub quite a big ask and, especially in deprived communities trade, who have been suffering. This is another issue in which those pubs are the only asset, that can be a and might, in a sense, be an unintended consequence of serious issue. cracking down on the exploitation of tenants. Companies 973 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 974 are now looking around and saying that it would be difficult junction and that would help them get out into much easier to sell the property off or rent it out to a heavy traffic. We are trying to obtain that slip road none supermarket and to make more money that way. the less, but without that funding. Two particular closures in my constituency of Castle I reiterate what hon. Members have said. Pubs are Point have caused enormous controversy and upset. community assets. They serve the public in a variety of The King Canute pub on Canvey served its last customer ways. They have plenty of community uses and some in May 2014. The pub, one of Canvey’s most historic have strong historic value locally. They are currently left buildings, was originally called the Red Cow, but during with incredibly little protection. I believe they should be the devastating flooding of 1953, in which many Canvey recognised as community assets as a default position—not residents sadly lost their lives, it was at the doors of the one that requires a long, elaborate process, which residents pub that the water stopped—hence its renaming. It also are often not aware of and do not realise that they could served as a base for the armed forces, from which they have followed until it is too late. I urge the Minister to helped residents during the floods. look at the matter again, so that such a long process is not required to establish pubs’ value in the future. I spoke to the landlady about a week before the news broke about the closure, and asked, “How’s business?” Obviously, if a pub is not profitable, that is a different She was doing an awful lot of good stuff. I had attended issue. In the cases that I have described, however, the several events that she had held for local charities in the pubs seemed perfectly profitable—although they possibly pub and lent my backing to them. When I spoke to her, would have been more profitable if they had not been she was very positive and upbeat; so the closure came as tied in to a pubco—but they had immense value in the an enormous surprise, not only to her and her staff but current property market. That is the cause of the problem. to customers and local residents. It really is time that the Government looked at this, because their other efforts to help the public house The pub is in an historic building, highly valued by trade, by removing beer duty and so on, will mean the community. It is intrinsic to the history of Canvey nothing if pubs are simply turned into to supermarkets. Island, unusual and quirky. We have been told that it is likely to become a Co-op but, despite assurances, there is no guarantee that we will even keep the building, 11.45 am which is beloved of residents and is a treasured community Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is an honour asset. So it is heritage, as well as community benefit and to follow the hon. Members who have spoken. I thank service to several charities, that the pub offered. The law and pay tribute to fellow officers of the all-party save the gives no protection against demolition, other than the pub group—the hon. Member for Bristol North West good will of the owners. I am lobbying to get the (Charlotte Leslie), who opened the debate so succinctly building listed as a heritage asset, even though it is not and precisely, and the hon. Member for Leeds North in itself very historic or special. However, it is an old West (Greg Mulholland), who has been such a dogged building for Canvey and it is very well loved and particular and long-standing campaigner for Save the Pub. I add to the island. my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee, which The same fate occurred to the Silver Jubilee pub on does such a sterling job in identifying subjects for Canvey. As its name suggests, it opened in 1977 to debate that are dear to the hearts of Members and commemorate the Queen’s silver jubilee. It was a very constituents. well liked local pub. The hon. Member for North East We often say that there should be more cross-party Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) mentioned knitting circles consensus, particularly on policies relating to the NHS and groups, including a local knitting group, met regularly and social care, but a long journey starts with a single at the Silver Jubilee and they are now deprived of a step, and perhaps on this topic, which has attracted place to go. When the area in which the pub stands was support across all parties, we may be able to reach laid out and developed, the pub was considered necessary; consensus. I am sorry that the Minister has slipped out it was integral to the plans for the area and there is no for a moment, as hon. Members have made some excellent other pub nearby for local residents. suggestions for a way forward. The closure came as a great surprise because there My contention is that a way forward was offered by was no evidence that the pub was not successful. It an amendment to the Infrastructure Bill that was tabled seems that it simply was not turning sufficient profit for by me and the hon. Members for Leeds North West and the big firms, who have been able to convert it to a mini for Bristol North West, which attracted the support of Morrisons. Not only have they converted it to a supermarket 38 Members of Parliament. The proposal was hardly and put flats above it, but they have now applied for revolutionary: to promote diversity, it offered some permission to build houses on the adjoining car park. choice. It did not offer any permanent protection; it was A wise man—Ray Howard, the long-serving and very simply an attempt to introduce community consultation smart local councillor, who has served Canvey Island to try to prevent viable pubs being closed and steamrollered continuously since I was six months old—pointed out into an alternative use, usually as a supermarket. that if a single application had been submitted to turn I echo the disappointment of the hon. Member for the pub into a supermarket with flats above and to build Bristol North West at the response of the Government, houses on the car park, the change would have been a who have sought to block every effort to support tenants large enough to trigger some section 106 funding— and safeguard our pubs. At all stages the Government development money for the community. However, because seek to water down and amend legislation to favour the owners did not need to get permission for change of powerful self-interests in the pub industry—those of use for the actual building, they have managed to get the large pub companies—rather than working in the through a loophole. That funding could have been used best interests of communities, customers and tenants. It to put in a slip road for what many residents find a very is a shame that this debate is necessary at all. New 975 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 976

[Grahame M. Morris] The market rent-only option agreed by the House helps to level the playing field and redress the balance of clause 16 to the Infrastructure Bill would have made power between the tenant and the pub-owning company. quite a simple change to the planning laws, empowering That may relieve the pressure that is leading to so many communities to protect their local pubs from being pub closures—31 per week, as I said. It is important to demolished or converted into supermarkets without note that the market rent-only option would not end the consultation. beer tie—as some critics have claimed, saying that it would be a retrograde step—but would ensure that Earlier hon. Members were trying to differentiate pub-owning companies had to show real value to their pubs that are clearly no longer viable as pubs and those tenants in order to retain the tie. that have support and are clearly viable, and that perhaps offer a range of services, such as restaurants. As today’s Despite the House’s support and the benefits to tenants, motion notes, the existing planning laws in relation to Tory peers—including some with clear vested interests, permitted development are causing valued and viable if I may say so—have been trying to exempt pub companies community pubs to be targeted by supermarkets. Hon. from the market rent-only option if they significantly Members have given examples in Canvey Island, Bristol invest in a tenant’s pub. “Significant investment” is an and North East Derbyshire, where that is precisely what incredibly wide concept. While I am not surprised that a has happened. In east Durham, in Easington, which has peer with a pecuniary interest would try to undermine 18 villages and two large towns, there have been so the statutory code, I am more concerned about the many pub closures that there may be one pub left in a Government’s efforts to reword and water down the village. In some villages—Hawthorn, Dalton-le-Dale, protections of the market rent-only option without Hesledon—there may be one or perhaps even two pubs, consulting MPs, or Fair Deal For YourLocal campaigners, but there is considerable pressure, particularly on the prior to inserting replacement clauses into the statutory tenants of pubs that are owned by the large pubcos. As pubs code legislation. we have heard, research from the Campaign for Real Subsequently there has been some consultation with Ale suggests that a considerable number of pubs—I the various interest groups, all of which the members of have a figure of 29, but the hon. Member for Bristol the all-party save the pub group have met, including North West said that it is 31, and I am sure she is Fair Deal For Your Local, the Campaign for Real Ale correct—are closing every week, and quite a number of and trade unions representing pub landlords, such as those are being converted into supermarkets. my own union, Unite, and the GMB. Importantly, however, despite promising to do so, the Government I greatly appreciated the widespread support that was did not consult in advance and the discussions seem to shown for new clause 16, which offered such protections have taken place after decisions have been made. for community pubs. It was defeated only following a Simon Clarke from the Fair Deal For Your Local late intervention from the Government when the Minister campaign is an outstanding advocate in defence of our made a token concession to remove pubs listed as an pubs. He has warned that one revised clause means that asset of community value from permitted development existing tenants will not have the option of a parallel rights. While new clause 16 would have protected all rent assessment, resulting in a tied tenant being unable pubs, the Government’s amendments potentially protect to determine whether they would be worse off than if only 600 of the 48,000 pubs in the UK. This comes they were free of tie. That was an absolutely key principle from a Government—on both sides of the coalition—who of the Bill and Ministers gave us an assurance from the believe in and promote localism. Requiring ACV status Dispatch Box that that would be the case. to protect one’s local simply adds unnecessary bureaucracy and costs when a much simpler alternative is to empower A Government Minister said in the other place that local people. I am at a loss to understand why the Ministers Government believe that nightclubs, launderettes and “are always discussing these issues and changes with tenants”.— casinos should have more protection than community [Official Report, House of Lords, 2 December 2014; Vol. 757, pubs. c. 1243.] However, despite such assurances, Mr Simon Clarke By opposing planning protections for pubs, the describes the Government’s amendments as Government have failed to protect pubs and community “an attempt to bulldoze through amendments without the dialogue interests. Not only that, but we continue to see efforts to and consultation promised.” water down an important decision of this House to The Government should explain their position. empower pub tenants against pub-owning companies. That is an important factor in the many conversions. I have a number of questions to put to the Minister. Last year, the House expressed its clear will to offer Why are the Government failing to support local tenants a market-only rent option as part of a statutory communities to protect their pubs? What are their objections code of practice between themselves and a large pub-owning to allowing local people a say in the planning process company. I recognise that we have a planning Minister when a change of use is proposed for a pub? Will the here and the purview of ministerial responsibility is Minister guarantee that he and the Government will perhaps not entirely his, but it is germane to the debate work with MPs and campaigners to ensure that the that we consider the implications. Importantly, such a explicit will of the House of Commons in supporting a safeguard would help to protect the tied publican who market rent-only option in a statutory code is not may be struggling financially. Some 46% of tied tenants undermined or watered down in the other place, because earn less than £15,000 a year despite their hard work that would simply compound the problem? and, in most cases, long hours. Nearly nine out of It is time for the Government to do more than pay lip 10—the exact figure is 88%—identified the beer tie as service to supporting communities, consumers and tenants, one of their most significant financial problems. and to safeguard pubs and begin to offer some practical 977 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 978 support. As my Health Committee colleague the hon. that. I gently remind him that this very simple change is Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) has current Liberal Democrat party policy and is already in said, before we call time on this Parliament—that is a our pre-manifesto. I have not yet checked the manifesto, really good expression—we should ensure that we can, but I hope that it is included, as we were told it would in unanimity, provide some modest protection to pubs be. It is for CAMRA and other organisations to challenge that are in the interests of all our communities. all the parties to put pro-pub policies in their manifestos. Today, we are talking about something very simple. 11.57 am In a way, it is not about pubs, but about whether Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): First, I communities should have the right simply to have a say thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing when a significant change of use is threatened for a us the time for this debate. I also thank my hon. Friend building that is of value from a business or community the excellent Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte point of view. We are talking about absurd planning Leslie), the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. loopholes. The idea that there is any relationship between Morris), who is a friend with a small f and the vice-chair a pub and a supermarket express store or solicitors’ of the save the pub group, and all other members of the office is ridiculous. The fact that free-standing pubs group from both Houses who share our passionate with no protection in the planning system can be demolished belief that the British pub is not only important to our overnight before people even get the chance to have a society, economy, heritage, history and tourism appeal, say—it happens—is a scandal. but, in the context of this debate, a hugely important I believe that there is a better solution, which I will part of community life as a place where communities come on to, but the save the pub group welcomes the can come together. fact that the Government have announced a modest I also wish to say a big thank you to all 244 MPs who step forward in providing a right of consultation. Let us effectively voted for what we are discussing today to go be clear that it is not protection for pubs; it is simply a into the law of the land after the debate on new clause right to comment—that is all—just as people can comment 16 to the Infrastructure Bill, and particularly the 29 rebels on any planning application. The proposal is only for who had the courage to vote against their own Whip to pubs listed as having added community value. As has show their real support for pubs. I thank the Opposition been said, only 600 pubs have been so listed in the four Front Benchers for supporting that campaign, and I years since the scheme was introduced. That is not want to give particular mention to the hon. Member for particularly impressive: it is 1.25% of all the pubs in the Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris), who had country. the courage not only to vote against his party, but, in The scheme does not even apply in Wales. One of my doing so, to resign as a Parliamentary Private Secretary. particular concerns is that that was not mentioned in He really has shown his support for pubs and I hope he the explanation from the Department for Communities has been congratulated on doing so by his local CAMRA and Local Government about why the new change is branch and others. fine. It is not fine: it will do absolutely nothing at all in I wish to echo the comments by the hon. Member for Wales. Welsh colleagues, particularly those who are Easington about thanking the campaigners. In this case, Government Members, must be aware of that. we say a huge thank you to the Campaign for Real Ale, In the Government’s thinking, there is a mantra that which is leading the wonderful Pubs Matter campaign, we must have permitted development rights because and to all the others. He mentioned the Fair Deal for your they will allow the sensible changes that people want Local campaign, the Fair Pint campaign and the wonderful and that will help business. Apparently, such changes work of Simon Clarke and his team, but there are also are not allowed for nightclubs, launderettes or theatres, Licensees Supporting Licensees, MALT—the new Mutual but they are fine for pubs. The Government are effectively Association of Licensed Tenants—and the Protect Pubs saying that nightclubs, launderettes and theatres—and campaign. There are many campaigners around the casinos, which have more protection in the planning country, and there are also individual pub campaigns, system —are more important than pubs. They conceded some of which have already been mentioned. I thank all the point on betting shops, which rather undermines their such community campaigns and congratulate them on argument. They accepted that if they did nothing and trying to save their pubs, whether or not they are continued to turn a blind eye to betting shop conversions, successful. as they had up to that point, we would see betting shops all along high streets, particularly in London. Therefore I am glad that we have the chance for a proper debate they can change, and where they recognise there is a today. We did not get the chance for any sort of a debate problem, they will change. I share the frustration of my when the very important, but simple and common-sense, hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West, and change was proposed a few weeks ago. My hon. Friend other colleagues, that the Government are simply not the Member for Bristol North West had four or five listening to something that would bring the system into minutes to introduce the important new clause and I line with those other, simple uses. had two or three minutes to speak, so we did not get the chance to put our case. It worries me that the MPs who Grahame M. Morris: The hon. Gentleman is making were persuaded not to support that simple change did an excellent case about the Government’s modest offer so on the basis of a one-sided argument, because the other of a compromise. The cost of listing all pubs as assets of side of the argument was not heard and some of the community value would fall on local authorities. Are information presented did not reflect the reality of what any figures available for that, because those I have seen is going on or of what the Government suggest is sensible. from the all-party save the pub group suggest that it I thank the Minister for his engagement. We do not would cost about £1,000 per listing? We could be talking agree on a solution, but he is certainly listening and about many millions of pounds, and I would be interested conversing, and I appreciate the time he has given to to hear the hon. Gentleman’s comments on that. 979 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 980

Greg Mulholland: I will come on to cover that point. The derelict buildings are nothing to do with it. We The problem is the conversion of pubs into supermarkets, are talking about viable, wanted and profitable pubs. I and particularly their buying power. CAMRA figures would love to know what every right hon. and hon. show that two pubs every week are being converted into Member who voted against new clause 16 will say when supermarkets—that is more than 100 a year—and in a constituent walks into their surgery and says, “We are the past four years, Tesco alone has converted 37 pubs. losing our local pub. We have just found out that Enterprise Inns or Punch Taverns have sold it to Tesco, I have written to supermarkets as chair of the all-party Co-op, Lidl or Sainsbury’s. Will you help us to oppose save the pub group, and the replies I received were that?” They will sit there and say, “There’s nothing you simply not honest. Supermarkets claim—I wonder whether can do, because they have the absolute right to do it. this is where the Minister got a mistaken idea about You can list it, but by then it will be too late.” As has what is really going on—that they are bringing derelict already been mentioned, the ACV process is used reactively. buildings back to life, which is a wonderful thing, and It is used only when people see there is a threat to a pub. that the pubs were failed businesses. That is absolute In some cases, that is far, far too late. rubbish; it is dishonest and they know it. The reality—I The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) urge the Minister to look at this issue—is that secret submitted an interesting freedom of information request. deals are done behind the backs of communities between Of all the assets of all types—not just pubs—only large indebted pub companies and supermarket chains. 11 have been bought by communities. CAMRA knows Supermarket chains are deliberately targeting and indulging of about 10 pubs now in community ownership that are in the predatory purchasing of larger pub buildings, listed as ACVs, but it cannot say whether the ACV precisely because they know they can impose stores on initiative led to the pubs being saved, or whether that a local community without it being able to do anything. came later. The reality is that probably fewer than We have the absurdity that a new Tesco, Sainsbury’s 10 pubs, of the 600, have actually been saved. It is fair to or Co-op—it is very engaged in this process—can impose say that some of them have not yet been threatened, but a store on a community that is stunned to find that it only 10 have been saved. has no right to object, yet the supermarket chain then I have already mentioned the problem with not giving has to submit planning permission for new signage. commercial companies, the small breweries and small That sort of thing brings the planning process into pub companies—who, incidentally, are thriving as the disrepute, and from that point of view such a system big pub companies fail—an adequate chance in this cannot be defended. Ministers, the Department and process. The Golden Harp in Maidenhead had ACV some MPs are misunderstanding what is going on. status, but then became a Tesco. The council turned There is perhaps a little light at the end of the tunnel. down an article 4 direction, which is the other way in We have all seen the figures and the fact that Tesco has which DCLG suggests this can be dealt with. About got itself into a terrible mess—as out-of-control big 42 pubs in London that have ACV status are currently business sometimes does. One Tesco store that was closed. Many are simply being land-banked, because announced will now be closing—so much for bringing developers know that if they sit on them for long things to the local economy. Tesco will be closing the enough, they will probably get whatever planning permission Tesco Express in South Tottenham, which used to be they want or need, or they will go ahead anyway. the Golden Stool and before then The Mitre. Having We have to debunk the myth that going through the taken that pub away without the community having a planning system to give people the right to a say somehow say, Tesco is walking away and leaving a derelict means that a pub is not only protected—it is not—but building—so much for this being a wonderful thing for cannot become another use. That is simply untrue and business and communities. Not only are supermarkets it is wrong for Ministers to suggest otherwise. The truth buying premises, they are leasing pubs from pub is that viable and profitable pubs are being lost even companies—an even sneakier and easier thing to do. when planning permission is needed. Indeed, in the constituency of the Minister of State, Department for Of all the arguments I have heard in this place, the Transport, the right hon. Member for South Holland Government’s argument on this issue is one of the and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), Ye Olde Dun Cow in weakest and it is absolutely full of holes. It includes Cowbit had ACV status. There was a community campaign stating that somehow laundrettes, theatres and even to bring it back to life, but permission was given to nightclubs are apparently more important to DCLG demolish it. The Summercross in my own constituency— than pubs. That is because the situation has been presented one of my local pubs in Otley—was, after a hard fought as somehow being about the derelict pubs we see around—at campaign, turned into a care home, despite the fact that least one hon. Member has mistakenly taken that view we gave the council figures to show that the pub was to be a fact. The Minister told us about derelict pubs in trading profitably when it was deliberately closed by a Bristol, but those pubs are derelict even with the permitted developer. The owner of Hooper’s in Camberwell obtained development rights—that issue has absolutely nothing planning permission to convert it to a house even to do with it. Many pubs have now shut, but that goes though it had ACV status. The Tumbledown Dick in back to the unfair business model of the large pub Farnborough, an ACV pub, was partially demolished companies that Members across the House have mentioned. and is now in use as a McDonald’s against the wishes of I pay tribute to the work of the Business, Innovation the local community. The George IV in Brixton, the and Skills Committee that was instrumental in exposing Emperor in Ipswich, the Chesham Arms in Hackney—this that and leading finally to change. is not a happy picture, even when people do have to go I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Easington through the planning process, so if the Minister seriously (Grahame M. Morris) about the moves to water down thinks that even if they make this limited change, or what we voted through on 18 November, and we all even if we get the new clause changed, it will save lots of need to be aware of that. pubs and stop conversions, that is simply not the case. 981 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 982

There is a dangerous loophole that I urge the Minister I. A description of the nominated land including its proposed to address. If an ACV pub is sold as a going concern, boundaries. These boundaries do not have to be the same as that bypasses the six-month moratorium, even if it is a ownership boundaries, for instance as shown on the Land Registry deliberate sale as a temporary going concern where the plan if the land is registered; nor is it necessary for all parts of the nominated site to be in the same ownership.” intention is clearly to end its use as a pub. That undermines the position hugely. That means communities are expected to go and get plans. They either have to pay the Land Registry—okay, We need a clear announcement. I hope and suspect that is not particularly expensive—or they have to produce we will get from the Minister today an idea of when, in plans themselves. The guidelines continue: the eight weeks left of this Parliament, we will hear that “II. Any information the nominator has about the freeholders, announcement. This is our last chance. I share the voice leaseholders and current occupants of the site.” echoed by the hon. Member for Bristol North West. I urge the Government, even now, to think again, and How many people living near to a pub would actually this is where we come on to costs. I asked the chief know that? executive of Leeds city council to give me its costs of “III. The reasons for nominating the asset, explaining why the every ACV status. The reply was that on average an nominator believes the asset meets the definition in the Act. assessment and approval of a nomination up to the IV. The nominator’s eligibility to make the nomination.” stage of being first added or otherwise to the list of That is not 21 people saying that they think a pub is assets of community value costs around £1,070 in officers’ important. The Minister and the Department have given time. It also pointed out that the DCLG guidance states the impression that this is a wonderful way to get all that on average a nomination should take 8.3 hours, but valued pubs listed, but there are thousands and thousands officers from Leeds city council estimate it takes twice and thousands of valued pubs. The majority of the as long. That, of course, does not include the time it pubs we still have left of the 48,000 are valued, yet may take to consider a formal review of a decision, any multiple applications cannot be made. resource required if a review should go to a tribunal I have exciting news for the House. The first multiple stage, or any time to deal with administering the process application, as a test case, will be made next week in my when an owner informs of the intention to dispose of town of Otley, in my constituency, by the wonderful an asset. That is without even the possibility of legal community organisation, Otley Pub Club. Otley has challenge, which is quite likely. 20 pubs. As an Otley resident and occasional user of those pubs, I can assure the House that all 20 pubs are Natascha Engel: May I add to that very long list? The highly valued by Otley Pub Club and the local community. hon. Gentleman talks about officers’ time. What is the They are going to seek to list all 20 of them, which has cost of the time of members of the local community never been done before. We will see what happens. who are putting in time, effort and a lot of resource? I want to make the case for why the Government’s proposal is the wrong change and ours is the right one. Greg Mulholland: The hon. Lady is absolutely right If the applications are regarded as average and simple, and I will come on to that point once I have presented listing all 20 valued pubs in Otley will cost £21,400 of the view of the local authority. I do not doubt that the taxpayers’ money and take 332 hours of officers’ time. Government believe in localism. I believe in localism [Interruption.] I hear the Minister chuntering from a myself. But localism does not mean passing the buck sedentary position, but listing costs local authorities when the clear responsibility for the use class orders is money, and several councils have said it amounts to with national Government and DCLG. about £1,000. It is more for an article 4 direction—more Several surveys have been conducted, including by like £2,000, £3,000 or £4,000 per pub. To list all the the Save the Pub group and CAMRA. The Local valued pubs in the country, therefore, would cost millions Government Information Unit has figures showing that of pounds of taxpayers’ money, and that is not acceptable 45 out of 49 local authorities said they did consider simply because it is local authority money, rather than pubs as valued community assets worthy of protection, central Government’s money. It is irresponsible, given and 33 of them said that existing planning regulations that there is a much simpler solution and that local do not give sufficient protection to public houses from authorities are extremely hard-pressed with greatly reduced change of use and demolition. In every single survey, a budgets in these difficult times. It simply is not an large majority say that they would welcome the changes appropriate way to proceed. we suggest today. Furthermore, of course, councils can and do turn On to the reality for communities, as the hon. Member down ACV schemes. Even if those 21 people go through for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) said, these the time-consuming steps—it took Otley Pub Club six are ordinary working people. My hon. Friend the Member months to produce its 20 forms—of ascertaining the for Bristol North West used the word “misleading”. I boundaries, working up the plan, finding out who the worry that, because we did not have the chance to have leaseholders, freeholders and occupants are and giving this debate at the time, there was a sense, certainly on their reasons for making the application, the local authority the Government Benches, that all one needs to do to can still say no. CAMRA knows of approximately register a pub is to get 21 people. Colleagues would say, 40 applications that have been turned down. That does “I’m not going to support you, because apparently we not sound like localism to me. have a concession.” Let me read the reality of the If, as he seems to be, the Minister is absolutely adamant situation as set out in the DCLG guidelines, “Community —on that, I share the frustration of the hon. Member right to bid: non-statutory advice note for local authorities: for Bristol North West—I and CAMRA have some part 5, chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011”: suggestions, and if he could consider them as part of “5.1 A nomination must include the following information for introducing this proposal, that would be better. Two the local authority to consider: simple things need to happen if this is to have anything 983 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 984

[Greg Mulholland] 12.25 pm Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I shall like the impact he suggests: first, we need to make it be comparatively brief. much easier, less onerous and quicker to get ACV status for pubs and to make it much less likely that a council I wish to be a little more generous to the Minister will refuse; and, secondly, if the Minister is serious than some speakers. I congratulate my hon. Friend the about pursuing this measure, we must strengthen ACV Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on status not just by ending permitted development rights having secured this debate and the Backbench Business but, for example, in the case of the pubs I have mentioned, Committee on having supported it. Having been both by making it much harder for developers to go against pubs Minister and planning Minister, I am conscious the will of the community and get planning permission that planning policy is always a balance, and striking a where needed. Such is the power of those large companies balance does not always make us popular—sometimes, that pubs are still being converted and bulldozed, even we are about as popular as the landlord calling time on when the planning process has been followed. a crowded Saturday night—but it has to be done. I am therefore much more supportive of the Minister’s position. To make this measure meaningful, the Minister should That does not mean that, in the light of experience, make it possible to submit multiple applications. If planning policy cannot be improved, and I think that people say, “These are the valued pubs in our village”, the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) why should we separate them? If there are three pubs in has made some sensible suggestions that we ought to the village, they might all be valued. If there are 15 pubs listen to, as too has my hon. Friend the Member for in a town, 10 of them might be valued. If so, let the Bristol North West. I was also impressed by the comments community list all 10. It is obvious and simple and of my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca would save local authorities money. In addition, it Harris). In particular, I join in her tribute to Councillor should not be the responsibility of local communities to Ray Howard, whom I have worked with over many establish boundaries. As the hon. Member for North years. He is rightly nicknamed Mr Canvey, and after East Derbyshire said, if local communities have to go almost 40 years’ of elected service, he now epitomises through that process, they will not always bother. everything that good local government is about. I am happy to get that on the record. CAMRA also asks that the Minister close the loophole whereby selling an asset as an ongoing concern bypasses I believe in pubs. I have been active in a campaign to the moratorium—a glaring gap in the Bill—and make save a pub in my constituency, and we succeeded within the moratorium last longer than six months; it is not the current regime. There are hurdles, but they are not enough. If this is seriously about saving pubs, we must impossible. Equally, however, those of us who believe in extend the moratorium. Furthermore, if he insists on pubs have to be realistic and accept that not every pub is going down this route, we need a new status with more viable or will be an ACV, so we have to take a nuanced powers; alongside the ACV status, we need a community approach. I approach this matter slightly differently pub of value status, and then DCLG could put in extra from my hon. Friends. I am concerned that more pubs protections specifically for pubs. In Scotland, the legal are not listed, but I think we should be looking at why system is in some ways more progressive, certainly in we cannot encourage greater uptake of the ACV regime. respect of the planning system. We should also establish As one of the Ministers who introduced the regime, I a genuine community right to buy, rather than our very confess I had hoped that communities and local authorities weak right to try—the right to put in a bid that in the would be more proactive in listing not just pubs but end can simply be ignored. many other types of facility. That is something not just for the Government, but for communities themselves, to I hope I have shown that the simple change of allowing look at. In the case of my pub, The Porcupine in local communities the basic right to comment—not just Mottingham, ACV status was achieved very quickly. to object, but to support—on a significant change of use to a pub would be cheap and easy. The Government’s Natascha Engel: Surely the reason local communities suggestion is a welcome but modest step forward. Even are not better at listing these assets is that it is so if, as we hope, more pubs are listed, many wanted, difficult to do, not that they are too lazy? viable pubs will still close. That is a fact. It baffles me why this Government, who are committed to localism Robert Neill: I do not think that local communities and have said they want to be the most pro-pub are necessarily lazy. That would be a patronising thing Government ever, have proposed a solution that is not to say about any community. In Mottingham, the pro-pub but is more bureaucratic, much less effective, community moved swiftly and efficiently, the local authority partial, will take much longer and will cost millions co-operated and the pub was listed as an ACV very more in taxpayers’ money than what we could achieve quickly. I do not accept all the criticisms made of the with one simple vote and change, through secondary Government’s position. legislation, to the use class orders. Charlotte Leslie: My hon. Friend is an exceptionally In the last eight weeks of the Parliament, I urge my efficient and effective Member. Does he think that the hon. Friend the Minister and his colleagues to do the speed of success might have had something to do with sensible and obvious thing and put pubs in the sui his being pubs Minister at that point? generis category, alongside theatres, casinos, laundrettes and nightclubs. It is the simple and obvious thing to do. Robert Neill: I regret to say that I had departed office If the Government want to leave a legacy as a pro-pub by then, although I am delighted to say that the then Government, that is the announcement we need to hear pubs Minister, the Minister of State, Department for in the next few weeks. Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend 985 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 986 the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), In the debate on the Infrastructure Bill, the Minister came down to the constituency and looked at the site— announced certain changes to the assets of community without in any way prejudging the outcome. It was value regime, which I welcome. I would like further simply that our local councillors, the community and I clarification of the statement that the secondary legislation were quickly on the case. There were some issues—I would be brought forward at the earliest opportunity. shall come on to them—where I agree with my hon. One advantage of doing these things through secondary Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds legislation or planning policy guidance is that we can be North West, but at the end of the day it was possible to more fleet of foot than if primary legislation is used. do it under the current regime. Does that mean that we Can the Minister tell us when this legislation will be cannot improve the regime? No, we can always improve introduced? Can he confirm that this will apply to it. Much planning policy develops incrementally in the public houses and other assets of community value that light of experience. have already been listed? That seemed to be the sense of what was being said in his statement, but one or two Grahame M. Morris rose— lawyers have said that it would be good to have absolute clarity on that point. I hope that that will not be difficult to achieve. Robert Neill: Let me make a bit of progress before We could look at encouraging local authorities to do giving way again. as the Mayor of London has done. When I read the First, we should look at ways of being more proactive inspector’s report on The Porcupine case, it was clear about developing the assets of community value regime that he gave considerable weight to the fact that this was across the piece. Secondly, we need to do more to an asset of community value. In fact, the Government’s encourage the adoption of neighbourhood plans, which reforms bit, and were effective in this case. The inspector enable a greater degree of granularity than in ordinary also gave considerable weight to the policies in the planning documents. If they are linked to a robust local London plan that were introduced by the current Mayor plan—more and more authorities are introducing those— of London to strengthen the protection of public houses that, too, provides an opportunity to have plans locally in London. that are attuned to the need to protect pubs in particular Those policies resulted from a report by Steve O’Connell, areas. That would be a good way forward too. the Conservative London Assembly Member for Croydon In the case of Mottingham’s public house The and Sutton, called “Keeping Local: How to save London’s Porcupine—a much-loved asset—I had a lot of sympathy pubs as community resources”. I recommend it to any with what was said. Enterprise Inns quite cynically ran Member, as there is no reason why other planning that pub down, and it is right to say that many of the authorities cannot adopt that same useful approach. pub companies have a bad track record of running A number of specific policy lines have been put into the down pubs essentially to improve their balance-sheet London plan. Members interested in this should look at position. Enterprise Inns has long been doing that; it policy 4.48A, the whole of policy 4.8 and policy 3.1B, has a deliberate disposal policy. I totally agree with the all of which deal with the ability of boroughs—indeed, hon. Member for Leeds North West that that is what we an obligation is placed on them—to bring forward need to address. The debate is about the nuance of how policies to retain, manage and enhance public houses, best to do that. In that case, the public house was sold where there is sufficient evidence of need and of community without notice to the community. That is an aspect of asset value and viability in pub use. Authorities are also the way in which the regime works that we could look at tasked with the need to develop policies to protect again in the light of experience. valued community assets, and the London plan specifically Happily, the Mottingham residents association and refers to pubs in that context. Policy 3.1B also specifically our local councillors were in touch with me quickly and refers to the need to protect pubs. we were able to make an application to the local authority, The Mayor’s “Town Centres Supplementary Planning which swiftly had the matter placed on the agenda for Guidance”, which is given effect by the London plan, the planning committee. A decision was taken and the also strengthens the position of pubs, including specifically pub was listed. The local authority, after a hearing, taking into account the continuing viability of use of rejected the application. The supermarket Lidl that had the public house, the history of vacancy, the prospect of bought The Porcupine site appealed. Representatives of achieving reuse at market value and whether or not it the local community and I gave evidence at the public has been effectively marketed. Some of the pubcos go inquiry. I am delighted to say that the inspector rejected through a sham exercise in marketing, which was exposed Lidl’s appeal, and the time for Lidl to challenge in the in the inquiry into The Porcupine. Frankly, the pubco High Court has now expired. It was a win for the local had simply gone through the motions, and we were able community. to call an expert who demonstrated that this was not a We were able to engage the services of the excellent genuine marketing exercise. These are things that we Richard Harwood QC, one of our leading planning could sensibly seek to tighten up, and we could do so lawyers, who put up an exceptional case—[Interruption.] without direct interference by the Government, but Actually, he was instructed by the local authority. Tribute they might like to think about strengthening the guidance should be paid to him. He understands the issues and to reflect what is already good practice in London in did a great job. I have one or two of his suggestions for that regard. further improvements, which I shall put to the Minister There are a couple of other things we could do that in a moment. The point is that this can be done under would not be too onerous and would still maintain the the current regime, but can we make it easier? I would balance that we always need in planning policy, involving always like to make it easier for communities to help flexibility when needs and circumstances change and their pubs in the future. vary from area to area. More could perhaps be done to 987 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 988

[Robert Neill] whom I am delighted to see in her place on the Opposition Front Bench today. That did work, but we might be able increase the weight given to the harm caused by the loss to build on it and make it simpler to achieve. of non-designated heritage assets. If the asset—often a Finally, let me salute the work that CAMRA has pub, but it could be a church or something like it—is a done over the years. CAMRA was a great help to us listed building, it obviously get much more significant during The Porcupine case, and it might be able to help protection. It might be worth looking at the operation us again. Now that we have a site that is vacant—not of paragraph 135 of the national planning policy framework demolished, I am delighted to say—we need someone to to see what could be done to increase the weight given offer to take it off Lidl’s hands and make it commercially to the harm that would come from losing assets that are viable. CAMRA might be able to take on a brokerage of community value, but do not have the status of being role, working with other bodies, because it contains listed buildings because of their architectural merit. some very bright and commercially astute people. It Something might not be of great architectural merit, could perhaps bring together those who have the money but it could still be of great value to the community. We with which to acquire a site—and might be interested in should look at ways of providing help on that. acquiring it—and the local community and local authority. Rebecca Harris: What my hon. Friend says is precisely This has been a very useful debate. If I have adopted relevant to the case of The King Canute, which I raised a slightly different tone from some other Members, that earlier. is not because I am not as passionate about pubs as anyone else—as many will know—but because I want Robert Neill: Yes, that is something that it would be to find a suitably nuanced way in which to achieve our good to prevent. I am aware that the hon. Member for shared objective. I look forward to hearing from the Easington (Grahame M. Morris) wanted to intervene Minister. earlier. I did not mean to be discourteous to him. Would he like the opportunity to intervene before I finish? If I 12.40 pm have covered the point, well and good. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I Grahame M. Morris: With all due respect to the hon. pay tribute to the hon. Members for Bristol North West Gentleman, he mentions the services of a top barrister, (Charlotte Leslie) and for Leeds North West (Greg but would it not be much simpler and less bureaucratic—I Mulholland), and to my hon. Friend the Member for have heard him arguing for the need to cut costs many Easington (Grahame M. Morris), for securing the debate, times—simply to accept the proposal in the motion? It and I pay tribute to the Backbench Business Committee proposes a simple change to for supporting their application. However, although I am pleased that they secured the debate, I wish that it “put pubs into the sui generis category”, had not been necessary. All who have spoken today which would achieve the same ends, be administratively have given excellent expositions of why the planning simpler and cost local authorities nothing. system should be changed to better protect community pubs, and the hon. Member for Leeds North West Robert Neill: The proposal is initially very attractive, provided a very good elucidation of use class changes. I but having looked at the operation of use class orders hope to emulate that approach. during the two and a half years when I was a Minister, I warn the hon. Gentleman that we need to be little Just two weeks ago, I was in the Chamber helping to careful about some of the intended consequences of make the case for the inclusion of new clause 16 in the changes to use classes. I would not rule it out entirely Infrastructure Bill. Despite cross-party backing, the for the future, but we should approach it carefully, new clause, alas, failed to overcome the Government’s incrementally and on an evidence basis. I hope, too, that opposition to it. The background will be familiar to the decision in The Porcupine case—something of a test many colleagues who have taken an interest in pubs and case—will make it easier for us to succeed in subsequent in the ways in which the Government’s policies have legal challenges. We all want the same thing—there is made life more difficult for them. no dispute between us about the objective—so it is the As a shadow planning Minister, I was at the forefront means by which we achieve it that we are debating. of the fight against the changes in permitted development Another suggestion is that we accept extending the rights which the Government started to force through need for planning permission to the demolition of two years ago. Those changes mean that pubs can, commercial buildings, which would be quite straightforward. without planning permission, be converted to shops in That was a risk in the Porcupine case, and the hon. the A1 use class, including retail warehouses, hairdressers, Member for Leeds North West raised the issue of what undertakers, travel and ticket agencies, and post offices. happens if a pub is knocked down, when the building is They can be converted to establishments in the A2 use gone and the chance for restoration to a pub is pretty class, including banks, building societies, estate agencies, much lost. My suggestion would be possible following employment agencies and, of course, betting shops and the SAVE Britain’s Heritage judgment in 2011—on my payday lenders, and to A3-use establishments such as watch—about the Mitchell’s brewery site in Lancaster. restaurants, cafés and hot food takeaways. They can The need to give notice before exercising permitted also be demolished altogether, again without the need development rights to demolish has been helpful as a for planning permission. result of that judgment because it has enabled article 4 I pointed out in December 2012, during the debate directions to be made. That worked in Lewisham in the on the Bill that became the Growth and Infrastructure case of The Baring Hall public house just over the Act 2013—and I have done so on other occasions—that boundary from me—in the constituency, I believe, of the Government’s changes in the law governing permitted the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), development were profoundly anti-localist, and should 989 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 990 be opposed. However, I feel that stronger words are people together and gives them the opportunity to have a say in needed to describe their continued refusal to back down what happens to valued pubs, shops or community centres if they on the pubs issue in the face of overwhelming opposition are put up for sale. But if as it appears, almost 50% of attempts to from Members in all parts of the House, not to mention buy ACVs are unsuccessful, there must be scope for enhancing people’s chances of success with the second and most important— local communities up and down the country. bidding—phase of the Right.” The relaxation of permitted development rights and While the Government’s decision to extend protections use class changes have led to a number of unintended to pubs that are designated assets of community value consequences. I am sorry that the hon. Member for has been welcomed by CAMRA—among others—as a Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) is no longer present, because I wanted to draw attention to some of “step in the right direction”, the unintended consequences of his changes, such as the Government have made no attempt to explain how the lack of any effective planning for our high streets—where communities will be supported in their efforts to obtain there are currently clusters of payday loan companies—and that designation for local pubs. Perhaps the Minister the inability of local communities to do anything about can enlighten us today. After all, the difficulties involved it or prevent an increase in the number of pub closures. in the process, particularly the buying stage, have been I have described the consequences as unintended because described to him clearly. I assume that they are, but it is, of course, possible that Ministers are naive if they think that this measure—I the Government really do not care about the increasing would call it a half- measure—is adequate to the task in number of pub closures or the removal of rights from hand, because it will not extend to pubs the protections local communities. How else could we explain their that they need. CAMRA has pointed out that some stubborn refusal to back new clause 16? As the hon. pubs have been designated as assets of community Member for Leeds North West put it on that occasion, value, only to be converted to other uses. The Select “If hon. Members support pubs and support local democracy, Committee report reminds us that they should vote for new clause 16, and if they do not, they should “Listing a building such as a pub as an ACV does not prevent vote against.”—[Official Report, 26 January 2015; Vol. 591, c. 648.] its change of use under permitted development rights…to a shop, Unfortunately, too many Members voted against the new estate agent or restaurant—or indeed its demolition.” clause, and did not examine what the Government were The George IV pub in Brixton is just one example. Its supporting closely enough. designation as an ACV failed to stop its conversion to a While they have announced some limited measures supermarket. Will the Minister tell us what measures, if aimed at tackling the problems that pubs are facing, the any, the Government intend to take to address that Government have failed to take adequate notice of issue? cross-party calls to restore planning protections to community pubs, and the steps that they have announced Groups such as CAMRA had the foresight that the appear to be wholly inadequate. The Minister has heard Government evidently lacked in anticipating a potential that said clearly by Members on both sides of the loophole in the proposal. That could still allow developers House today. In the wake of the Government’s successful to proceed with change of use conversions even when a attempt to scupper new clause 16, the Under-Secretary pub has been ACV-listed. Currently, a pub is removed of State for Communities and Local Government, the from the ACV register when it is sold. CAMRA has hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), announced called on the Government to ensure that the order is proposals to extend planning protection to pubs that strengthened to ensure that the listing of a pub as an were designated assets of community value, but, as is ACV would permanently suspend permitted development noted in today’s motion, details of how and when the rights for the premises, avoiding the need for community Government intend to implement that have not been groups to re-nominate an asset every five years. Will the forthcoming—although, obviously, we look forward to Minister commit to adopting that common-sense proposal? hearing what the Minister has to say today—and the Ministers have also said that communities may wish decision throws up more questions than it answers. to use article 4 directions to suspend permitted development The jury is still very much out when it comes to the rights in an area. We know that article 4 directions have right to bid that was introduced by the Localism Act 2011. been used by a number of authorities. However, it is a According to the Department for Communities and very difficult process. Although it is within local authorities’ Local Government, more than 1,800 assets have been remit to pursue that option, they must notify the Secretary listed since the introduction of the right in September of State, who reserves powers to modify or cancel most 2012. That figure sounds promising, but, as has been article 4 directions, and for any reason. Given the shown by research carried out by my hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s tendency to micro-manage planning Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), the picture is departments, we have no faith that he would not interfere a great deal murkier than it suggests. Freedom of in that way. Information requests to local authorities revealed to him In 2010, the then planning Minister, hon. Member that, of the 122 groups that had triggered a moratorium, for Bromley and Chislehurst, who is now back in his 60 were unsuccessful in their bids, while 27 bids were place, went so far as to recommend that local authorities outstanding and only 11 had so far resulted in community pursue the use of article 4 directions to combat the buy-outs. That, as was explained earlier, relates to all clustering of betting shops in certain areas and to help categories. to ensure diversity on their high streets. However, as my According to an excellent report entitled “Community right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) Rights”, which was issued by the Communities and pointed out at the time, article 4 directions are very Local Government Committee last week, costly for local authorities to pursue. Perhaps they are “The Community Right to Bid process has achieved some prohibitively expensive. Article 4 directions are a pretty success because the first phase, listing local land or property as an blunt instrument when it comes to protecting community Asset of Community Value…is relatively straightforward. It brings pubs. In addition to the national planning policy framework 991 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 992

[Roberta Blackman-Woods] Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), because last night she announced her engagement. These days, we find out requirement that they may only be pursued when there these things via Twitter; that is how I discovered the is “clear justification” to do so, there is also potential for news last night. I am delighted publicly to congratulate heavy-handed oversight from Whitehall. Indeed, her and John, who happens to be a friend, on their Government guidance has made it clear that councils engagement. I wish them many happy years together. face a hefty financial burden if developers affected by Hopefully, my hon. Friend and I will agree on a few the directions seek financial compensation. The guidance other things as I proceed, too. states that Recently, we discussed these same issues during debate “Local planning authorities may be liable to pay compensation on the Infrastructure Bill. I am glad that we have had to those whose permitted development rights have been withdrawn”. more time to do so today. I know that my hon. Friend Given the rate at which developers up and down the country the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) are stampeding to convert pubs to countless alternative was deeply frustrated that there was not sufficient uses—we know that upwards of 30 pubs are now closing opportunity to rehearse the issues fully at that point. each week—there seems to be a gaping loophole in the The Bill introduced a huge raft of changes. It was not protections afforded to them. We argue that article 4 possible perhaps for everyone to make the length of directions are not the appropriate protection, even though contribution on the amendment that they would have successive planning Ministers have put that forward. wished at that time, but we have had that opportunity We criticise the Government’s approach. An issue has today. been created for communities that wish to protect We are of course fully aware of the strength of feeling community pubs. The Government made changes to in the House about the importance of community pubs. permitted development rights and then put forward We have made clear our commitment to protecting another mechanism so that communities did not have those pubs that most benefit the community. We recognise to apply the changes to permitted development rights that public houses are important assets that play an that the Government put through in the first place. That important role in local communities, making important seems a bit perverse at best. Therefore, Members on the contributions to the economy and providing local hubs Labour and indeed the Government Benches are suggesting that strengthen community relationships and encourage a much simpler approach to protecting community wider social interaction. pubs. It is extraordinary that so little is being done to I will shortly come to the changes to the planning protect our pubs, especially when they face such competition system that I announced on the day of the Infrastructure from supermarkets. Bill Report stage and specifically to pubs that are listed Pubs face a double-whammy from supermarkets. Not as assets of community value. However, I want to start, only can pubs be converted into supermarkets without as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West planning permission, but often local supermarkets sell did, by reminding the House of the other measures that cheap alcohol and make it readily available, whereas, we have taken in government to support local pubs. because of the way our licensing laws operate, pubs can I think that the coalition Government can claim to be promote more responsible drinking and ensure that a the most pub-friendly Government for quite some time. restaurant and food are available. The Government For example, we cut beer duty in the last two Budgets have to deal with that issue. Why not tackle the supermarket and scrapped the beer and alcohol duty escalators put issue and the availability through supermarkets of cheap in place by the Labour party. We have introduced a alcohol, rather than attacking pubs in this way? £250,000 fund for business partners to help to deliver The Government should today show support for this more community-owned pubs and pubs providing excellent motion. They should forget about cumbersome community-focused services, which has contributed to a applications for assets of community value to protect more than doubling of the number of co-operatively pubs. They should wake up to the fact that article 4 owned pubs over the past two years and seen many directions are not an appropriate mechanism to protect rural pubs offering a wide range of new community-focused pubs. They should recognise the additional burdens services and facilities. I would like in particular to thank that assets of community value designations and all the Plunkett Foundation and Pub is the Hub for working aspects of the relaxation of permitted development are as partners with my Department on those issues. placing on councils, without the resources to deal with We have also reduced the bureaucracy that had been the extra work, and with many also suffering from the hindering landlords from running their pubs, for example Government’s unfair local government cuts. The through the removal of the licensing rules for small-scale Government should do the sensible thing and return the live music venues. We have increased the business rates determination of permitted development and use class discount for pubs with rateable values below £50,000 changes to local authorities and the communities they from £1,000 to £1,500 for this year, a move that is represent, so that they have the means to protect pubs estimated to benefit three in every four pubs in the should they wish to do so. country, and the protections we are giving publicans tied to large pub companies under the new statutory code of practice, to be enforced by an independent 12.56 pm adjudicator, will address the imbalance in bargaining TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities power between large pub-owning companies and the and Local Government (Stephen Williams): As is customary, thousands of tenants that run tied pubs. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting There are already protections for pubs in the planning the time for the debate and congratulate the sponsors of system. Local plans right across a local authority and the motion. Much more significant congratulations are neighbourhood plans, which are becoming increasingly due to my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for popular, should reflect and be consistent with the strong 993 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 994 support for pubs in the national planning policy framework disproportionate, for the planning system to have blanket —that, I believe, is in paragraph 70 of the document— protection for every single pub in the country, when particularly if that is adopted in the local plan. For there may be perfectly good reasons why a permitted instance, last year I visited the Phene pub in Kensington development right is appropriate. and Chelsea where there has been huge pressure for pubs to be converted into houses, which have incredibly Greg Mulholland: Can we be clear? This is not about high domestic values. The Phene had been saved from giving more protection; it is simply about allowing that fate because of the strong planning policies that the people the right to have a say over a change of use. Will council had put in place. Local planning authorities are my hon. Friend accept that the reality of what is going encouraged to plan positively to support the sustainability on is that profitable pubs are being closed deliberately of their communities. That includes plans to deliver the as secret deals are done between large pub companies social, recreational and cultural facilities and services and large supermarket chains? It is nothing to do with that the community needs, and to promote strong rural pubs that are not viable or not wanted. Can he accept economies through the retention and development of that point, and what is he going to do about it? local services and community facilities in villages, such as pubs. Stephen Williams: I accept what my hon. Friend says My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst about supermarkets, and I assure him I am going to (Robert Neill) rightly said that national permitted come to that point. The change that he wants and the development rights play an important role in the planning motion suggests is not modest, however. It is quite a big system, providing flexibility, reducing bureaucracy and change to the planning system to give blanket protection enabling the best use to be made of existing premises. to one particular retail use of a piece of land. Current permitted development rights allow for the Let me depart slightly from my remarks, as I have change of use or demolition of pubs without the need been provoked. There are probably lots of high street for a planning application. That has been the case for retail uses that different Members around the House quite some time. Some Members may remember that might lament the loss of, as shopping areas have changed during the progress of the Infrastructure Bill I gave the during our lifetime. I like going to pubs—I have even example of the Ashley Court hotel in my constituency, been to the pub with my hon. Friend several times and where the owner wanted to sell it to a property developer hopefully he will buy me a drink again very soon because and, despite the fact that it was a popular local pub with we have not fallen out too much over this issue—but I one of the most magnificent views in the whole of the am a bibliophile and really enjoy going to bookshops, city, he went ahead and demolished it. That was in and I lament the fact that many towns have lost all their 2007, I think. There was nothing I, as the local Member bookshops. Even a seat with well-educated constituents of Parliament, or the two local councillors for Ashley such as mine, Bristol West, where there are lots of book- ward at that time could do about it. We all opposed readers has experienced this; the number of bookshops what we felt was going to be the ultimate outcome, but open and trading in Bristol since I went there as a he went ahead with the demolition. There was no student in 1985 has shrunk markedly in recent years. Is provision in the planning law that we could use to stop the reason for that because there is not enough protection? it. That has been the case for some time. That is what The Opposition Whip, the hon. Member for Clwyd will change as a result of the proposals in the Infrastructure South (Susan Elan Jones), was chair of the Labour club Bill that I outlined. and I was chairman of the SDP-Liberal club at Bristol university at the time, and she will remember that there Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful for the Minister’s were lots of bookshops. There are not so many now. clarification, but I am sceptical about the potential of Has that change happened because there is no protection the orders to stop demolitions. Earlier in the debate, a in the planning system for bookshops—or for bakeries, colleague of his on the Government Benches—the hon. or for other uses people value in the high street and wish Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), I were still there? No, it has not. It has happened because think—suggested that the costs of ACV should be customer tastes and purchasing patterns change. We placed on the developers, rather than falling on the cannot have a planning permission that stands in the local authority. Does the Minister see any merit in that? way of people changing how they buy things and exercising their commercial choices. Stephen Williams: I will very shortly come on to the points raised about the process of listing ACVs and any Natascha Engel: That is not the point we are making. costs that may arise. All of us have said pubs that are no longer viable are It is right that non-viable and underused pubs and very different from pubs that are perfectly viable. The other commercial buildings should be able to change Wellington in New Whittington is a heavily used pub, use quickly to respond to changing local demands. but the company that owns the building can make more There are lots of reasons why pubs may close. As I said money by selling it to a supermarket than by keeping it in the debate on the Infrastructure Bill, there could be as a pub. It is still making money, however; it is making demographic reasons, and the hon. Member for North plenty of profit. East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) made exactly the same point today. There could also be reasons of local Stephen Williams: It is, perhaps, difficult to pick on employment—there may be a factory closure, or the individual examples without getting into trouble, but location of a football stadium may move, which happens one of the bookshops in my constituency closed because fairly often. There are lots of reasons why pubs may no a well-known TV personality restaurant-owner paid longer have their former customer base and patronage. more for the renewal of the lease than it could afford We are saying it would be inappropriate, and, in fact, even though it was trading profitably as a bookshop. 995 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 996

[Stephen Williams] Local planning authorities can currently protect pubs by making an article 4 direction, which has the effect of Now there is a much-shrunken version of it further removing national permitted development rights, and down the road. We cannot have a planning system to they can use that power where it is necessary to protect protect every single piece of economic use of land in the amenity or well-being of an area. Once a direction towns and cities in that way. We have to reflect the fact takes force, a planning application must be made before that commercial patterns change. That is what our any development can take place. Article 4 directions can constituents are doing; they are changing the way they be targeted at individual pubs or applied over a specified buy books, and the way they drink and eat. geographical area, as appropriate. The shadow Minister had some questions about article 4 usage, but she is no Rebecca Harris: In a previous life, when I last had a longer in the Chamber. She will be able to read my proper job, I was a director of a publishing company so answers in Hansard, however. I know a little bit about bookshops and the book trade. The Secretary of State no longer has the power Bookshops have closed for many reasons, in particular automatically to block article 4 applications, but he the growth of the internet and Amazon, but that is not does have the power to ensure that they are not being the same as the conversion of a bespoke building in a applied completely disproportionately—right across a neighbourhood, designed for the one purpose of being local authority area, for example. They are meant to be a pub, despite its being perfectly profitable and there targeted. More than 130 local planning authorities currently being no evidence that people are buying their alcohol have article 4 directions in place, 26 of which apply online from Amazon these days. We are talking about a specifically to pubs. They include pubs in the London completely different scenario. We are talking about boroughs of Wandsworth, Camden, and Kensington profitable businesses in bespoke premises being taken and Chelsea, as well as in Bristol and Cambridge. So over for another use. the powers are being used, but not as extensively as Stephen Williams: I do not disagree with my hon. CAMRA would like. That is one reason that we considered Friend. I am simply saying that the planning system has bringing forward the change that was announced on the a column of use classes and different examples of day of the Infrastructure Bill’s Report stage. commercial uses, and that it cannot always give protection The listing of assets of community value under the to every kind of commercial use in that column of use Localism Act gives local people a greater stake in the classes. Other factors also come into play. future of assets listed and triggers a moratorium on any sale, enabling local people to develop a bid to buy the Grahame M. Morris: Will the Minister explain to me asset and ensure its continued contribution to their in simple terms why protected development rights should community. We welcome the fact that a third of the apply to launderettes—and all those other categories—and 1,800 assets across the country that have been listed so not to public houses? far—around 600—have been pubs. This has been by far the most popular use of the right, which has been in Stephen Williams: I am being invited to depart from place for the past couple of years—not four years, as my prepared remarks again, but that is the nature of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West said. debate. I do not know the whole history of the planning Those pubs include the Greenbank pub in Easton, in system. It has obviously evolved over a long period my constituency. I know that my hon. Friend the Member since the original Town and Country Planning Act 1947, for Bristol North West has recently been involved in which was passed by the Attlee Government. There getting Lamplighters pub in her constituency reopened, may well be anomalies within the system; I am not and I should like to extend an invite to her. She and I aware of its full history. The motion gives examples should go to The Lamplighters to celebrate her engagement including theatres and launderettes. I do not know how —maybe this weekend. I will buy the drinks for me and many theatres there are in Easington compared with the her, and for John, and we will find the necessary 21 people number of pubs, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that who want to list the pub as an asset of community value in my constituency of Bristol West there are hundreds so that we can get it protected. Let us see if our diaries of pubs and only two theatres: the Bristol Old Vic, the work. oldest and longest-running professional theatre in the country, and the Bristol Hippodrome. I am thinking off the top of my head here, but this is probably a matter of Charlotte Leslie: You’re on! proportionality. Theatres are important to the community, and there are likely to be only a few in any given town or Stephen Williams: I fully understand the widespread city, which might be why they are given that protection. concern that pubs that are valued by communities could The same could apply to launderettes, although on still be lost because of the regulatory environment of the face of it, that might seem odd. There are far fewer the planning system. That is why, on 26 January, we launderettes in my constituency than there are pubs, announced our intention to disapply the permitted and every time someone tries to close one, the local development rights for the change of use or demolition residents use the planning protections to fight the closure. of any pub that is listed as an asset of community value. Launderettes are obviously important, particularly for I hope that that addresses the point made by my hon. people who live in flats or houses of multiple occupancy. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) They are also important in city centres and university about the King Canute on Canvey Island. towns, where not everyone has the facility to wash their Pubs are not just useful to local communities as clothes at home. I think that that is why there is a gathering places; they can also be significant landmarks distinction for launderettes, and I would not put the along the high street. That is certainly true of the hundreds of pubs in any given location into that same Ashley Court hotel in my constituency, which I mentioned category. earlier. It did not quite come up to scratch in terms of 997 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 998 architectural merit, which is often the problem in big Act rights came into place—has published its own cities that have lots of listed buildings, but it was nevertheless “how to” guide on listing assets of community value. I an important landmark and now it has gone. However, am sure CAMRA will update it to take into account the demolition will now come within the scope of the new teeth this new right will have. changes that we are making. I have dealt with the cost of listing, but my hon. The measure will be effective for a five-year period Friend the Member for Leeds North West and the hon. from the date of disapplication of the permitted Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) also development rights. That will affect the loophole to mentioned the cost to authorities of listing assets. I was which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North surprised to hear my hon. Friend say that Leeds city West referred. Under the present listing rules, if a sale council says it takes 16 hours of officer time to deal with takes place, the clock starts again on the listing. We each application—I believe that is what he said, but he have already foreseen that loophole, and I am grateful will correct me if I am wrong. No doubt my officials to CAMRA for discussing it with me. We are therefore back in Marsham street will have picked up on that and proposing that the protection should be in place for five will check whether it is the case. The procedure is quite years from the date of the disapplication. That will straightforward in the legislation. We are aware, and mean that, for those pubs, a planning application must some of the evidence we have been gathering from be made to a local planning authority before a change partners shows, that some local authorities are gold-plating of use or demolition of the pub can take place. That will what they need to do under the regulations. I do not give the decision back to the council representing the local suggest that Leeds city council is necessarily doing that, community—giving people a say, as has been suggested but we are aware that it is happening in some places. several times—and provide an opportunity for local people The procedure, as laid down in the Localism Act, is to express their views and offer any counter proposals. straightforward for listing an asset of community value. I want to deal with some of the other points raised in It is very simple for the promoters of that listing and it the debate. The process for listing assets of community ought to be similarly simple for the local authority to value has been described as bureaucratic and costly. consider whether the proposal meets the tests, as set out The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire said that in the legislation. communities might not have the ability to deal with My hon. Friend and others referred to the practices such a process. I understand that these rights are quite of pub property companies and others who deliberately new and that there is still some knowledge to be gained promote the closure of local pubs in their area. I was about how they should be applied. That is why other made aware this morning of a report in the Evesham Ministers and I, along with representatives of the partner Journal about NewRiver Retail writing to 11 of its owned groups we are working with in the Localism Alliance, pubs in the Dudley area, which it seems to want to are going round the country explaining how these convert into Co-ops, and suggesting that the pub managers, community rights work. We know that there is still for an incentive—I put it no strongly than that—should some awareness to be raised, however. The process for not seek to obstruct what it is doing. Planning law listing assets of community value is actually very cannot stop all those sorts of commercial practices, but straightforward. The requirement is simply to find 21 people if any of the pubs in Dudley or elsewhere are important who support the listing of a building or piece of land as to the local community, people should get out there an asset of community value and to submit an application right now and list them, in order to give protection. to the council. There is absolutely no cost to that group We believe the measure we have proposed strikes the of 21 or more people; the cost to them is zero. right balance between protecting valued community My right hon. Friend the Member for North East pubs and avoiding the blanket regulation that could Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt)—who has had to leave the lead to more empty buildings around the country. We debate early to attend another engagement—asked whether intend to introduce the required changes to secondary we will review the changes after 12 months. They are legislation at the earliest opportunity, and we will lay linked to the Localism Act rights that we have introduced, the regulations before the end of this Parliament. The and we have already committed to conducting a formal Government have in place common commencement review of how that Act is being applied, later in 2015. rules for changing business regulations on 6 April and, I We have already been gathering evidence informally, believe, 6 October each year. We intend that these including from CAMRA, on how the rights are being regulations will come into place on 6 April 2015—that used, and that review will certainly happen. deals with a key question Members asked—and we will My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West lay the statutory instrument necessary for that in good asked how to publicise the rights, and that is particularly time to make sure it happens. important now that the listing of an asset of community I invite all hon. Members to join me in urging local value will have even more teeth than before. I suggest communities to come together to support their local pub, that, as constituency MPs, we will all want to publicise use the community rights we have given them and nominate all sorts of things over the next few months, so we now their local pub as an asset of community value. As I have a real opportunity to go out into our communities said, 600 pubs have been nominated so far. That is and raise awareness of these issues. I think that my hon. a good start, and if we all get behind this, working with Friend the Member for Leeds North West mentioned CAMRA and local amenity groups, that number can his occasional use of the pubs in Otley. I follow him on expand significantly in a short time. If people think Twitter and from what I read I think he is much more their local pub plays a key social and economic role than an occasional user. We should go out into our in their community, they should act decisively and act communities and publicise these changes. CAMRA, now. They should not be reactive. I think someone spoke which has been working with the Department as a valued earlier about these changes and people being reactive. partner for quite some time now—since the Localism People should be proactive. I have been saying that, as 999 Pubs and Planning Legislation12 FEBRUARY 2015 Pubs and Planning Legislation 1000

[Stephen Williams] a statement that many of us perhaps agree with, especially given the time. She wished that this debate had not been other Ministers have, for the past 18 months or so. necessary, and a lot of us would say “Hear, hear” People should not wait for a threat. The right is there to that. now, so please use it. If people think any community Let me return to the Minister’s response. As I say, I asset is important, they should list it now—they should look forward to discussing this further over a pint in not wait for a threat to come along. The Lamplighters and perhaps any other pub he wishes The change we are making has been described as to name. Importantly, he reminded us of the significant “modest”, but giving planning protection to pubs that are positive impact the Government have had on pubs, listed as an ACV is a significant change. The Government which is possibly easy to forget; in trying to get the best, can fairly say that, without doubt, the future of local we should not make an enemy of the good. There is pubs will now lie in the hands of local people. concern that perhaps he had missed the point of the debate, which was not about commercial viability and 1.24 pm protecting those things that are not commercially viable, Charlotte Leslie: I thank everyone who has taken part but simply about allowing communities to have their in this debate. I will return to the Minister’s comments, say when there is a change, be it commercially viable or but first I wish to thank him for his congratulations on otherwise. His measures to close loopholes on ACV are my engagement. I will be delighted to take up his offer welcome, as is the pledge that the way ACV is working of a pint in The Lamplighters. As he knows, he can get out—that is separately from aspirations about how it there from his constituency via the Severn Beach line, might work out—will be reviewed as part of a formal which may one day be a Henbury loop—who knows? review of the Localism Act. I am very pleased that we have received assurances that that element will be considered. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): It is also welcome that we now have a date, 6 April, for What has that got to do with the debate? the moves that the Government have made to enhance the status of ACV. Most of us in this House would Charlotte Leslie: It was a terrible abuse of local agree that on planning protection of pubs it is, “Time, knowledge, and I apologise to my hon. Friend for gentleman and ladies, please. Time.” taking up his time in that way. Question put and agreed to. We heard some fantastic speeches today. The hon. Resolved, Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) That this House notes New Economics Foundation research summarised excellently the value of pubs beyond the showing that local economies benefit twice as much from a pound immediately obvious, talking about their community spent in a pub rather than a supermarket; expresses concern that value and all the other activities that take place in them, valued and viable pubs are being lost due to permitted development which include knitting, crèches, children’s tots groups rights which allow pubs to be demolished or turned into supermarkets and coffee mornings; some £120 million is also raised and other uses without planning permission, denying local people any say; notes that supermarket chains are deliberately targeting for charities each year. pubs and further notes CAMRA research that two pubs a week My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca are converted into supermarkets; supports CAMRA’SPub Matters Harris) powerfully illustrated the real-world consequences campaign calling for an end to permitted development rights on of the current situation, providing exactly the gritty pubs; notes that any change of use to a nightclub, laundrette or detail that I hope will keep this issue in the Government’s theatre requires planning permission, making it odd to refuse pubs the same status; notes plans to remove permitted development mind through 2015 and beyond. The hon. Member for rights from pubs listed as Assets of Community Value (ACVs), Easington (Grahame M. Morris) also touched on the and calls on the Government to announce how and when this will enormous amount of work that I know he has done on happen; notes, however, that pubs achieving ACV status is not as the statutory code for pubcos, which has until recently simple as Ministers have suggested, with the requirement for local been a pretty grim backdrop to the pub situation. I am communities to provide boundaries and plans and that every pub pleased that the Government have moved on that, largely must be listed separately making it unrealistic for communities to thanks to his efforts and those of the hon. Member for protect all valued pubs; further notes that each ACV application Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). costs local authorities over a thousand pounds, and listing all valued UK pubs as ACVs would cost millions of pounds and The hon. Member for Leeds North West was, as ever, create significant bureaucracy; and therefore calls on the Government a powerful blast of reality. He illustrated excellently the to make a simpler change and put pubs into the sui generis practical realities of an ACV bid. For some communities category so that communities can comment on a proposal to it may be easy but for others it is not nearly so easy, convert or demolish a pub. depending on discrepancies between local authorities and between the nature of the communities affected by the potential loss of their pub. He also gave news of his ROYAL ASSENT Otley Pub Club collective bid. We wish him luck with that and we will be interested to see how he gets on. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Ihaveto My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent (Robert Neill), who gave his apologies for not being able Act 1967, that Her Majesty has signified her Royal to be in his place now, gave a balanced assessment, Assent to the following Acts and Measures: using the benefit of his experience and expertise as a Stamp Duty Land Tax Act 2015 superb and first pubs Minister. He made some sensible Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 suggestions and I very much hope we can progress Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Act 2015 them. The hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), who is also not able to be in her Insurance Act 2015 place now and has courteously given her apologies, made National Insurance Contributions Act 2015 1001 Pubs and Planning Legislation 12 FEBRUARY 2015 1002

Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria and Infrastructure Act 2015 Iraq) Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure 2015 1.29 pm Ecclesiastical Property Measure 2015 Church of England (Pensions) (Amendment) Measure Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con): I beg to move, 2015. That this House has considered destruction and looting of historic sites in Syria and Iraq. I thank the Speaker for granting this debate, the Backbench Business Committee for making the debate its own and allowing it to be heard on the Floor of the House, and the Minister and the shadow Minister for taking time out of their schedules to be with us. I also thank those who have far greater knowledge of this subject than I do for their wise counsel, especially Neil MacGregor of the British Museum and his exceptional specialists. The current conflict in Syria, which has now enveloped large parts of Iraq, has ended its fourth year. We have seen at least 250,000 people killed, 6.5 million people displaced, 2 million refugees in neighbouring countries, and abuses, killings and ethnic and religious cleansing on an almost unimaginable scale by ISIL, the Assad regime and many others, and there is no sign of abatement. In a time of such terrible human suffering, the question must be asked: why should we turn our attention, even momentarily, to the destruction and looting of heritage—of mosques, libraries, souks, castles and churches? The first reason is that the scale of the destruction and loss is so great—the greatest anywhere in the world since the end of the second world war—that it deserves to be better understood as just one element of the tragic conflict in the middle east. These are ancient civilisations of great beauty, accomplishment and intellectual achievement. It is an extraordinarily rich history bound up with our own history and that of other cultures and civilisations throughout the world. Some of the sites in question, such as in Aleppo, Mosul and Nineveh, are relatively well known. ISIL alone now controls more than 4,000 places of historic and archaeological interest as well as libraries, great and small, such as the Mosul library, in which it recently destroyed all the books that it took issue with including the entire children’s section. No one group has done more to put the world’s cultural heritage in the gun sights than ISIL, and ISIL is not concealing its destruction; it is doing so brazenly with bulldozers and bombs, and it is available for all of us to see in arresting before-and-after images produced by the university of Pennsylvania and the United States Government. Those images are then broadcast by ISIL on social media. How shocking and shameful it would be if the west did absolutely nothing in the face of this destruction. There is also a human dimension. I am talking about the unbelievably brave men and women on the ground—the curators, the site guards, the librarians, monks and academics—who are trying to protect what they hold dear by producing inventories or by bearing witness and producing the facts for the rest of the world. Many are unable or unwilling to leave, and hope—I do not think that it is an exaggeration to say this—still to be alive when it is all over to pick up the pieces. Let me tell one story that was told to me by the British Museum. In October, a site warden at Nineveh was executed by ISIL, and every adult male who came 1003 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1004 and Iraq) and Iraq) [Robert Jenrick] has settled”. I am pleased to report that there is little or no evidence of their emergence on the legitimate market to mourn him disappeared, and are presumed murdered. of UK auction houses and respectable dealers, but They were remarkable individuals. Most of their stories works are believed to be appearing in other countries, cannot and should not be told for fear of endangering most notably Germany and the city of Munich, which them. In part, this debate pays tribute to them and has a history of being a conduit for antiquities and salutes what they are doing. stolen works of art. There is a second reason for focusing our attention There is a pervasive and disturbing culture of private on the destruction. These tragic events are occurring for sale in the Gulf states. Many of the ruling families of one of two reasons, both of which should concern us. those states profess to be great lovers of art and are First, it could be a deliberate attempt to subjugate investing vast sums in the legitimate art market and in communities by destroying the buildings and the heritage building some of the world’s most remarkable new that they hold dear and to rob future generations of any museums, often in partnership with western institutions connection to the past, or the ties that bind them such as our own. It is extraordinary then that those together, that might allow reconciliation or even facilitate states should tolerate a culture that allows the illicit functioning economies based on tourism and visitors. trade in antiquities to thrive and to be entirely accepted. That is madness applied to monuments. Secondly, systematic None of those Gulf states, save Sharjah, has any antiquities looting might be viewed as a significant revenue stream law or proper law enforcement. The ruling families of for ISIL, the Assad regime and others. I am talking those states, many of whom are personally committed about sculptures being turned into tanks. There is a to the arts and view it as part of their own nation’s rise fault line in ISIL, as there was in the Taliban in Afghanistan, to prominence, should examine their conscience and between those two competing but equally concerning change that culture. motivations. The third and final reason for our taking a greater Many will recall watching the TV news and seeing the interest in this matter, and it is the most important Taliban dynamiting and destroying 1,700-year-old Buddhas reason as far as this debate goes, is that while this at Bamyan in 2001, but what is considerably less well cultural barbarism appears utterly hopeless—as hopeless known—the story that has not been told—is that elements as the rest of these conflicts—there are practical steps of the Taliban were on the telephone to wealthy individuals that we, as one nation, could take to make a real only 20 minutes before pressing the button and detonating difference and that would do our reputation in the the explosives trying to negotiate a $10 million ransom region and the world no harm. in return for saving and exporting those works of art. First, we could raise the priority of this matter in our Those who sought iconoclasm and propaganda won on diplomatic efforts—at the UN where a resolution is that occasion, but it is not always the case. being sought; in bilateral relationships with neighbouring countries such as Turkey; through our embassy in Beirut, ISIL and the Assad regime are employing contractors a key conduit for this market; and in our relations with to seek out antiquities, working at times with couriers the Gulf states. There are those in Government and the and agents for dealers. ISIL is deploying militants to British royal family who hold some sway with those ensure its control of sites and to supervise digging in a ruling families in the Gulf states. In the longer term, we disturbing fashion that reminds us of blood diamonds should bring into law The Hague convention on works in Africa in the ’80s and ’90s. It is also licensing looting of art from conflict areas, which would be a powerful with a formal tithe or tax of 20% on those who do the symbol of intent. It is hard for us to continue to justify work themselves. not signing it, especially as the United Kingdom—proudly For some local communities in Syria and Iraq, the for me, as someone who used to work in the art business—is harvesting of low-value pieces is a continuation of the leading hub in the world for that growing and centuries of tradition—harvesting antiquities instead of extremely successful business. crops. We should recognise that they are doing so Secondly, in the spirit of the monuments men of the because they are starving and they have no other source second world war, we could make a modest but far-sighted of income. But looting should concern us because it contribution by establishing a commission to gather provides an insight into an extremely dark and dangerous information to establish the truth from the fog of the underworld that affects this country.We need to understand war and to introduce actions in concert with our partners it and to penetrate it as a way of tackling the financing around the world. That could be encouraged under the of terrorism and serious organised crime. That looting, auspices of the unequalled expertise of the British especially at the higher end, almost certainly continues Museum and, as the US has under the leadership of the systematic looting in Iraq that was undertaken by Secretary of State John Kerry, we could make some Saddam Hussein and his regime as a significant source modest funds available to help those brave individuals of revenue. As ISIL today facilitates the lines of on the ground, funding training and mentoring such as communication that were established by Saddam, we that conducted by the British Museum and University can see that everything in history repeats itself, but with college London both in person and, as it is the 21st century, different players. Those lines of communication and over the internet via Skype. We could help them to passages to neighbouring countries are interwoven with inventory their collections, which is key. We need to the drugs trade, the arms trade and human trafficking. work with groups such as the one that contacted me—the They are as dark and dangerous as criminality gets. brave monks in Irbil who are scrabbling to digitise their There is some mystery over where the looted works manuscripts to preserve Iraq’s Christian heritage while are heading. At the bottom end, one can see them freely time allows. sold on the market stalls at the Turkish-Syrian border, Culture is frequently neglected by the international and some have appeared on eBay. At the top end, many development community in development plans and in of the artefacts may well be in storage until “the dust funding choices, despite its obvious contribution to civil 1005 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1006 and Iraq) and Iraq) society, reconciliation and rebuilding economies post- and could bring the museums, the art trade and law conflict. I suspect that that is because most of us who enforcement together to ensure that this country is a live in and enjoy the west and our rich cultures take that shining example of responsible cultural stewardship, for granted, like the air that we breathe. That is not the whether in our great public collections or in the art case in many parts of the world and certainly not in business. Syria and Iraq today. In conclusion, we are witnessing cultural barbarism Lastly, in case the deeply disturbing networks of at its worst and its consequences run deeper than arts organised criminals and terrorists seek to bring this and culture. Madness is being applied to monuments material to our shores in the future, we should get our and sculptures are being turned into tanks. I believe we own house in order by ensuring that our counter-terrorist should act to help Iraqis and Syrians protect and preserve financing specialists include this work in their many their heritage against terror, acknowledging our shared priorities. It might indeed prove easier to trace these culture and common responsibility. By acting, however works, which are often large, difficult to transport and modestly, in some of the ways that I have suggested— known to experts. modest efforts will have the most practical effect—we will do a good that will last long after our own time and, Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I am in the world of politics, leave a legacy for future generations. listening with fascination and horror to my hon. Friend’s account of what is happening. Does he agree that the 1.46 pm importance of this cannot be overestimated? The first written work, the epic of Gilgamesh, is still being Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): At 2 o’clock uncovered and studied, but the horror is that there are I must chair the Public Accounts Commission, so I will things we will never know about that great work because not be able to stay for the debate. I apologise to the they have already been destroyed. House and I will try to come back. I very much wanted to take part in the debate to talk Robert Jenrick: I concur. These works, once lost, will about my personal experience, having visited both Syria never be recovered and many have not been properly and Iraq. I also felt that it was right to support my inventoried. There are not the records that there should parliamentary neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member be. The inventory of the Kabul museum is only still for Newark (Robert Jenrick). I support everything he being finalised with the help of the university of Chicago said in his most impressive speech and I will not repeat years after the start of the conflict. These efforts take all the excellent advice that he has given to our Government. time and resources, and they require the support of the This issue might seem a long way away, but it is of the western community. most dramatic importance. It is not just a cultural On counter-terrorism, I suspect that it will prove catastrophe, as my hon. Friend has outlined, but a easier to trace some of these incredibly dark and dangerous humanitarian catastrophe of the first importance. One networks through antiquities than through drugs or cannot divorce the preservation of artefacts from the arms. They are all bound inextricably together. That preservation of local community. Only on Monday, work must be done, understandably, without fanfare, but Archbishop Warda of Irbil was at a meeting in the it is incredibly important and I would love to have House of Lords, which I attended. He also gave a reassurance that our expertise is being deployed in this sermon in Westminster cathedral yesterday. He spoke area. most movingly about the trauma suffered by his community, We should resource our current but woefully inadequate which is of appalling proportions. The problems we law enforcement in this area. The only dedicated law have in our own country, the issues we were debating enforcement in this country is the Metropolitan police’s and getting very heated about in Prime Minister’s Question art and antiques squad, which comprises three officers. Time yesterday and the budget I will be discussing later They are wonderfully dedicated individuals, but they in the Public Accounts Commission all pale into are so hopelessly under-resourced that they are reportedly insignificance when one listens to a man such as Archbishop unable even to attend the relevant Interpol conferences Warda talk about his local community. to discuss and co-ordinate these activities. That is policing Twenty-five thousand Christian families have fled the from an era of lovable antiques rogues in the spirit of Nineveh plain and 125,000 people—men, women and Lovejoy and is totally not fit for purpose in dealing with children—are without their homes. That is not happening serious organised crime, terrorist financing and the in 1915 or 1940; it happened in August of last year. I have greatest destruction of works of art that we have known been to these places and I shall describe them a little in for half a century. That is unacceptable and warrants a a moment, because I feel passionately that having started review. all this we have a responsibility to finish it. We could encourage co-operation, the key to fighting Let me first follow on from what my hon. Friend the the trade in illicit antiquities, and promote good market Member for Newark was saying about Syria. I have behaviour such as the voluntary decision of some of the been to Syria, but I must admit it was not a recent visit. auction houses to set the year 2000 as one before which I have also received an invitation to speak at Damascus sellers must prove the provenance or the collected history university on the plight of Christians, but I think that of works of art, effectively shrinking the market for perhaps discretion is the better part of valour in not illicit works. That good practice is occurring and there going to speak in Damascus at present. However, I have is good news within this country, but it deserves the been to Damascus in the past and I visited the house in support of Government and deserves some co-operation. Straight street where St Paul was converted in the home The Government could aid those efforts by appointing of Ananias. Apparently that house is in good order and a co-ordinator to lead on the issue, bringing together has not been destroyed. Whether that is because it is in a the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the part of Damascus that is controlled by Assad forces, I Home Office and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, do not know. 1007 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1008 and Iraq) and Iraq) [Sir Edward Leigh] villages that have not been pillaged and had their population expelled and churches trashed. As my hon. Friend said, the destruction in Syria has Unbelievably, in 2008 I was saying much the same been truly appalling. According to the United Nations, thing. I organised a debate in Westminster Hall on the 300 cultural sites in Syria have been affected by the civil plight of the Christians and the Christian sites in the war. The United Nations Institute for Training and Nineveh plains. I also quoted Nahum, who said: Research has accumulated a great deal of knowledge on “Your people are scattered on the mountains with none to what has been going on. Focusing on 18 areas of gather them.” particular importance, UNITAR found 24 sites destroyed, I said in that debate—it is there in Hansard— 104 severely damaged, 85 moderately damaged and 77 possibly damaged. Those are sites of world heritage “When I went to the Nineveh plains, what struck me was that status. Such status is not granted casually; they are vital there was a sense of security in those ancient, entirely Christian villages. I met many displaced people who had come up from sites. Basra and Baghdad to settle in the Nineveh plains, and I heard In one world heritage site in Syria, the old city of some absolutely heart-rending stories.”—[Official Report, 16 December Aleppo, UNESCO believes that 121 historical buildings 2008; Vol. 485, c. 26WH.] have been damaged or destroyed—equal to 30% to 40% I went on to describe them. of the area covered by the world heritage designation. It is extraordinary that, having started all this mess, The minaret of the 11th-century Umayyad mosque has having invaded Iraq—Saddam, for all his faults, was been toppled, while the citadel of Aleppo is being protecting some of these sites— occupied by military forces and has suffered at least three violent explosions. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): The oldest surviving Byzantine church, that of St Simeon Nicking stuff from them. Stylites, built on the site of the famed hermit’s pillar, is at risk given its location 19 miles north-west of Aleppo. Sir Edward Leigh: Yes, but they were not actually There is also damage to Krak des Chevaliers, which was being looted and the population was not actually being created by the Hospitaller order in the 12th century. I dispersed. Although things were bad under Saddam—I should declare an interest because I am a Knight of that am no apologist for Saddam—I can tell my hon. Friend order. We are still around after all these centuries, trying that they are infinitely worse there. to do good work in hospitals around the world, particularly Back in 2008 I was given various reassurances by the in the middle east, and the work is extremely challenging. then Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Illegal excavations are occurring in the Valley of the Office, Bill Rammell, who told me: Tombs and the Camp of Diocletian—some of them undertaken using heavy machinery, bound to do a great “It is difficult to separate this issue from the broader picture in Iraq which, as a result of improving security and progress towards deal of damage. The damage in Syria has been absolutely reconciliation, is a far brighter one than we have seen for several appalling. years—certainly brighter than it was a year ago.”—[Official Report, I now turn to Iraq. When Saddam Hussein was in 16 December 2008; Vol. 485, c. 41WH.] power, I visited the Christian communities there. I also We have a responsibility. My hon. Friend the Member visited Babylon, which, of course, is one of the great for Newark has given some practical ideas of what we wonders of the world. Alexander the Great chose it to can do, but I have visited those churches and I have be the capital of his world empire. Following the mistaken listened, in those churches in the Nineveh plains, to invasion of Iraq, the coalition, unbelievably, created a services being held in Aramaic, the ancient tongue of military base right on top of the archaeological site, our Lord, and I know that it is impossible to separate 150 hectares in size. the expulsion of a people from the issue of the protection Babylon is a strange place. There is a lot of pastiche of those sites. ISIS, as a result of coalition bombing, renovation undertaken by Saddam, but the damage to has retreated from quite a few villages on the Nineveh Babylon has been appalling since the invasion and it is plains. The Christian population could possibly be enticed getting worse, so I think that we do have a certain to go back there—because the best way to protect the responsibility. Looters have attacked cities like Nimrod villages and the archaeological sites is to get the original and Nineveh, whose names resound with biblical and population back—but they are too terrified to return literary echoes that have rolled down the centuries, and because they do not trust the Iraqi army. they are now at the centre of destruction. When ISIS enter a Christian village, they tell the Let me quote from the prophet Nahum, whose tomb Christians that they have three choices—“You leave, or I visited in the village of al-Quosh. Of all the villages you convert to Islam, or you die”—so most leave. If that I visited in the Nineveh plain in 2008, only two of ISIS discover that someone is a Shi’a, they give them no those Christian villages—and I visited several—have choice; they kill them. I am afraid, however, that the not been occupied by ISIS forces. They are the villages Christian population in the Nineveh plains do not have of al-Qosh and Sharafiya. In the village of al-Qosh one confidence that the Iraqi army, dominated by Shi’as— can still find the tomb of the prophet Nahum, and what because many Sunnis have joined or collaborate with he wrote all those years ago still resounds today: ISIS—can protect them. It is therefore down to us. “Take ye the spoil of the silver, take the spoil of the gold: for I am not suggesting that we send some regiment from there is no end of the riches of all the precious furniture. She is Aldershot to those burning hot plains where they will destroyed, and rent, and torn: the heart melteth, and the knees make themselves a target, but surely there must be a fail, and all the loins lose their strength: and the faces of them…are way forward. Having, in a sense, destabilised Iraq and as the blackness of a kettle.” put the Christian population at risk, can we just walk That was Nahum talking thousands of years ago, and away and say, “We have fulfilled our side of the bargain his tomb is right there, in one of the only two Christian by just putting in six planes”? I think we have to do far 1009 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1010 and Iraq) and Iraq) more than that. We have to arm the local Christian found in the temple complex of the Sumerian goddess population; that is what they are asking for. I asked that Inanna by German archaeologists back in the 1930s. It question specifically of Archbishop Warda on Monday. is one of the earliest known surviving works of narrative He said, “That is what we want you to do—send in the relief sculpture with human figures, going back to the international peacemakers, protect our people, let our fourth millennium BC. That vase was wrenched from its people go back to our villages, and then we can protect base in the cabinet in the Baghdad museum. Then it their sites.” The same thing, surely—although it would went missing. be an infinitely more difficult and complicated picture— There followed an incredible story which is probably applies to Syria. much more interesting than what happened in that rather I will end on that point. My hon. Friend the Member poor film, “The Monuments Men”, about a fascinating for Newark has done a great service to the House in part of history. A small delegation of mostly reservists directing our attention to the appalling problems and from America were put in charge of trying to retrieve humanitarian and cultural disaster going on in that some of those treasures from the Baghdad museum. An part of the world. I hope that people in our country feel amnesty was issued and, remarkably, out of those 15,000 that, given our history, we have some sense of responsibility. objects, some 4,000 gradually trickled back to the museum. That included, remarkably, the great vase of Warka. Its return was described in The Times back in 2003. Three 1.58 pm unidentified men in their early twenties turned up outside Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): the Baghdad museum driving a rather clapped-out red It is a real pleasure to be able to speak in a debate such Toyota. The Times went on: as this, which seems to be on a rather obscure and “As they struggled to lift a large object wrapped in a blanket specialist subject. However, as my hon. Friend the Member out of the boot, the American guards on the gate”— for Newark (Robert Jenrick) so ably put it, there are far at the Baghdad museum— greater ramifications of what is going on in the cultural “raised their weapons. For a moment, a priceless 5,000-year-old pillaging of Syria and Iraq beyond the appreciation vase thought to have been lost in looting after the fall of Baghdad of culture and the great treasures that are gradually seemed about to meet its end. But one of the men peeled back the disappearing. blanket to reveal carved alabaster pieces that were clearly something extraordinary. Three feet high and weighing 600 lb intact, this was I declare an interest not only as the vice chairman of the Sacred Vase of Warka, regarded by experts as one of the most the all-party parliamentary group on archaeology and precious of all the treasures taken” chairman of the British Museum all-party group, but as during that looting. someone who has studied Mesopotamology at Cambridge. It is not often that one gets the opportunity to revisit The vase of Warka was returned. There was great one’s studies in this place. I have also visited Syria twice. concern because it was in about 20 pieces, so it was On my last visit there, five years ago, we went to Aleppo, thought to have been damaged. In fact, when the Germans a city which I think we would find hard to identify now. dug it up in the 1930s, it was in about 20 pieces, so with I found the museum there and went in search of some of a lot of conservation work and a good deal of glue the the excavations by the great Mesopotamologist Sir Max great vase of Warka was put back together. Alas, I do Mallowan, who went to school at Lancing college in my not know where the great vase of Warka is at present; constituency and was, of course, married to Agatha whether it has been taken to a site of safety, I do not Christie. When I eventually found some of the finds know. Others may have more information on that. from Tell Brak—one of his great excavations—rather We had a fascinating talk from one of the reservist alarmingly, I was asked by the guard who was on duty colonels who led that group of American soldiers retrieving which of them I would like to buy. those objects, who came to Parliament some years ago. Preservation of antiquities in Syria and Iraq has Indeed, a book has been published about the looting of always left rather a lot to be desired, but there is a sense the Baghdad museum. He told us the story of the red of déjà vu about this issue. After the first Gulf war Toyota and he showed us some amazing pictures. The there was extensive looting of the regional museums in looters tried to get into the Bank of Baghdad, where Iraq in particular—that cradle of civilisation, Mesopotamia, many of the treasures had been taken for safety, the to which my hon. Friends have alluded. It is estimated gold treasures in particular. that the museums in Basra, Kufa and Kut, the great I have to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Nebuchadnezzar museum in Babylon and the museums Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who has now left in Kirkuk and Duhuk lost between them something like the Chamber, that quite a lot of things that were thought 4,000 priceless objects. to have gone missing were in the private collection of Saddam Hussein and other members of the Government After the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and after the great of Iraq, so Saddam did his bit for early looting. museum of Baghdad was miraculously almost untouched by the bombing, in April 2003 it fell foul of the looters. Among the pictures is a photograph taken from the That was one of the great museums of the world; it had vaults of the bank in Baghdad where, apparently, some one of the greatest collections of cultural treasures in rather hapless looters used a rocket-propelled grenade the world—treasures from Ur, Babylon, Nineveh, Nimrod launcher to try to get through a solid steel German safe and Ashur, examples of the earliest writing, fantastic door. All the picture shows is a small dent in the safe cylinder seals and cuneiform clay tablets. Some 15,000 door and a pair of boots from a hapless individual who objects from the Sumerian, Akkadian and other periods tried to gain access. Fortunately, the looters did not were pillaged, including 5,000 cylinder seals, and gold succeed and many of the treasures in that bank vault and silver objects. Among them was, famously, the great were later returned to the Baghdad museum. vase of Warka, from the ancient Sumerian city of So there is a history of looting in that country. In Uruk, one of the great treasures of the world. It was addition to the 4,000 objects which were returned during 1011 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1012 and Iraq) and Iraq) [Tim Loughton] sites have been looted. Shops selling Syrian antiquities dot the Turkish side of the border, just 40 miles north of that amnesty, over subsequent months and years further Aleppo. objects were recovered from Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, Another wonderful site is Palmyra. I remember my Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Italy and the United States. It visit to Palmyra—one of the most beautiful and dramatic is estimated that around half of those looted objects archaeological sites in the world. I got up to see the sun were returned. Where they are now, I do not know. rise from the temple of Bel. I had the entire complex of Where the others went to, we do not know. that huge Roman city to myself. I fear the security there This debate is timely. We are about to see the release left a lot to be desired in those days, let alone now, open of a film about the amazing life of Gertrude Bell based as it is. It is an ancient settlement founded in around on the book by Georgina Howell, “Daughter of the 2,000 BC, made famous by the great Queen Zenobia—a Desert”. Gertrude Bell was an extraordinary individual caravan city during Hellenistic and Roman times, on who, in her time, was the oriental secretary to the high the edge of the Roman empire. Serious damage has commissioner for Iraq. She played a part in the Cairo been happening there. Syrian authorities confiscated conference in 1921, alongside Winston Churchill, three busts from Palmyra dating from 200 AD that had TE Lawrence and others. She was part of those who apparently been hacked off a tomb. created the constitution of Iraq and she was also responsible The majority of looted artefacts from Syria are now for the founding of the museum of Baghdad in 1926, being held in antiquity investment storage pits and the major hall of which is devoted to her memory. other stash sites for future sale at higher prices once the buyer’s market glut of cultural heritage artefacts has What happened in the 1920s sowed the seeds of what dissipated. In effect, these objects are being warehoused we are reaping now—what has happened in recent for people to make a fast buck in future. They will decades in Iraq and the greater middle east, and the re-emerge, but in the meantime we have little intelligence history that produced Saddam Hussein. So the debate is as to where they are or whether they are being looked timely. The situation in Iraq and in Syria, as we have after properly. I am afraid that while countries such as heard, is difficult to assess, because for obvious reasons China have a ravenous appetite for these archaeological we cannot get access. I, too, have been speaking with the artefacts, this market will exist. We need to appreciate British Museum, which has been liaising with the UK the scale of destruction that is going on, with priceless Border Force and other agencies in case any of those objects plundered and hidden, and sites destroyed, losing objects come into our geographical territory. I have also vital historical information and its context for ever. been speaking to Sam Hardy, to whom I think my hon. Some hon. Members—not in your case, I am sure, Friend the Member for Newark has spoken as well. He Madam Deputy Speaker—do not appreciate culture is an archaeologist who has spent a long time specialising and the importance of the amazing sites and priceless in the illicit trade in antiquities. antiquities that several of us have mentioned. However, We have limited information, but from the aerial there are also major implications for how we deal with photos it is very clear that so many of these important terrorism, how we rebuild that troubled part of the sites have been badly damaged and looted. There have world in future, and how we approach international aid. been extremely disturbing reports, to which my hon. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newark said, people Friend alluded, of the cold-blooded execution of those who buy looted artefacts from Syria or Iraq are feeding who bravely guarded these great museums, in particular insurgencies, fuelling the purchase of arms, and financing the museum in Nineveh, where the site guards lost their foreign extremists and mercenaries, as well as all sorts lives trying to protect those priceless objects. of other criminality. It is estimated that looting is IS’s second largest The destruction of Syria’s archaeological sites has revenue source after oil sales. My hon. Friend alluded to become catastrophic. There are unauthorised excavations 4,000—although I think the figure is nearer to 4,500— going on, and the plunder of and trafficking in stolen archaeological sites, including UNESCO world heritage cultural artefacts which is an escalating problem. Many sites, which are now under the control of IS. Iraqi of the objects have already been lost to science and intelligence claims that IS alone has collected as much society, and the context in which many of them are as $36 million from the sale of artefacts. It is the being dug up in unsupervised conditions will be lost for equivalent of what the Taliban were doing through the ever. The trading in looted Syrian cultural artefacts has cultivation and sale of heroin in Afghanistan to feed apparently become the third largest trade in illegal markets in the west. We took that very seriously, and it goods worldwide. It is big business. Back in the 1960s it was a priority for the invading and occupying forces in was a buyer’s market as there were few national collectors that country. Yet the devastation and profit involved in interested in Islamic art or other antiquities in Syria, the plundering of these sites and the sale of antiquities but that has changed dramatically since the Gulf does not seem to register remotely as clearly on the countries—Qatar and Abu Dhabi in particular—have radar of the world. become interested in the artefacts. There is also great interest in China and from Germany. We are facing a quadruple threat. First, jihadists are looting these sites, claiming some sort of religious reason Aleppo, Syria’s largest city and a crossroads of trade for doing so—my hon. Friend the Member for Newark and culture for countless centuries, has been especially alluded to the destruction of the Great Buddhas of hard hit. Its vast, labyrinthine souk—the largest covered Bamiyan—but they in fact, entirely hypocritically, profiting souk in the world—was tragically gutted by a fire in on international black markets from their destruction. 2012. The Citadel, a castle that dates back to 3,000 BC, Secondly, it is alleged that President Assad is knowingly has been damaged. The minaret of the Umayyad mosque selling antiquities to pay his henchmen. There are videos was toppled by fighting in 2013. Hundreds of other showing Assad’s soldiers at Palmyra, some time ago, 1013 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1014 and Iraq) and Iraq) ripping out grave relief sculptures and smiling for the Security Council requiring all member states to prevent cameras as they are loaded on to trucks. Thirdly, the Free the sale of antiquities from Syria, similar to the measure Syrian Army, in its various different guises, is looting passed 10 years ago on antiquities from Iraq. antiquities as a vital source of funding. Fourthly, an My hon. Friend alluded to blood diamonds. Everybody increasingly active part of the population is involved in knows what blood diamonds are. There was a very looting. Ordinary people are looting Syria’s cultural successful film about blood diamonds. They have ended heritage because they have no jobs, income or tangible up on everybody’s blacklist, and we understand why. economic prospects, and are increasingly turning to We should apply the same criteria to antiquities of such age-old plundering techniques, in some cases looting to importance from these countries. It should be easier to order. As a result of the activities of those four different do that because they are more easily identifiable and we parties, the fantastic culture of Syria and Iraq is being know their provenance, as opposed to one diamond systematically plundered, yet that is hardly featuring on looking very much like another. That is the approach the radar in the west. We are also having to face the that we should be taking. There should be no excuse for consequences of the financing of terrorist organisations being any part of a trade in these illicit antiquities that through the plunder of antiquities. have been taken from their rightful homes in Syria and Looking forward to a day in future when peace, in in Iraq. some form, comes to the region, the looting also threatens By participating in such trade, and by countries not to deprive Syria, in particular, of one of its best doing everything they possibly can to clamp down on it, opportunities for a post-conflict economic recovery based we are creating a rod for our own back, because it on tourism, which until the conflict started contributed allows for the financing of terrorist activities, which some 12% of national income. There is the fantastic site have affected our everyday lives, not to mention those of at Palmyra that I mentioned; Dura-Europos, a fantastic the brave servicemen and women who go to fight the Hellenistic caravan city; Ebla, a bronze age site; the cause in the middle east and try to contain the turbulent Hama water wheels; the third millennium city of Mari; situation in those two troubled countries. We ignore the and the cities of Raqqa and Ugarit. pillaging of their cultural background at our peril. To What should we be doing? My hon. Friend mentioned those who think that those dusty sculptures from centuries some practical solutions that we need to address with a ago are of no relevance, I say that they are absolutely greater sense of urgency. Collecting looted antiquities is key to how we deal with that part of the world and, a white-collar crime. The 1970 UNESCO convention, most importantly, hopefully to how we restore peace to from an international law perspective, is a rather weak a particularly troubled part of the globe. measure that exacts, at the most, a slap on the wrist for violators. The 1995 UNIDROIT—International Institute for the Unification of Private Law—convention is stronger 2.20 pm and could potentially enforce more robust international law. Yet, for that very reason, far fewer countries have Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I ratified it, fearing that it might target their citizens’ congratulate the hon. Member for Newark (Robert auction houses and museums. Another problem is that Jenrick) on persuading the Backbench Business Committee the law frequently differs between the source country to hold this debate, on the quality of his speech and from which the artefacts are looted and the country to on his success in persuading the hon. Members for which they are smuggled and then sold. That is a Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and for East Worthing defence lawyer’s dream come true. and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) to come along and make excellent and provocative—in the best sense of After the maelstrom of violence in the region, a 2003 the word—speeches. United Nations resolution called on all 197 UN members to stop the trade in Iraqi antiquities without verified The hon. Member for Newark rightly referred to the provenance. That now also applies to Syria. The European danger the current conflict in Syria and Iraq poses to Union has recently banned the import of antiquities the peoples of both countries and to its implications not from Syria, but, inexplicably, this prohibition has not only internationally and domestically, but for some of been followed by the International Council of Museums. the world’s great cultural sites in both countries. As he Interpol has drawn up red lists of material known to be said, any debate about the damage to Syria and Iraq’s stolen from Syria. UNESCO has held workshops on great cultural sites cannot ignore the security realities in how to combat the illicit trafficking of cultural heritage those two countries, whose peoples are experiencing property from Syria and elsewhere. One sign of progress, huge turmoil. The hon. Member for Gainsborough I hope, is a new law in Germany that could point the underlined the fact that thousands of lives have been way forward in requiring a certified export licence for lost and millions have been forced to flee their homes as an antiquity in order to secure an import licence. That is sectarian, religious and political fault lines have opened. encouraging, but it still does not tackle the situation in Ensuring an effective response to the rise of ISIL remains the Gulf states and in China, in particular, where such fundamental and we as a country must continue to play safeguards are not in place. our part in ensuring that Iraq has the political, security As my hon. Friend said, we need, on a practical level, and diplomatic support required, including strong support a proper survey of exactly what is going on before we for the Kurdistan Regional Government and the peshmerga. can come up with solutions. There is a pressing need for In Syria, ISIL-governed territory is being used to more training of more specialists who can work in draw in, train and radicalise jihadists, including from Britain. customs offices and at airports and sea ports to intercept Although the Assad regime cannot have a long-term future, some of these things and investigate whether there is the international community must continue to maintain any information about their having hit the market. He efforts to achieve a transitional agreement of the type also mentioned the draft resolution before the UN envisaged in the Geneva II process. I recognise the scale 1015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1016 and Iraq) and Iraq) [Mr Gareth Thomas] destruction as collateral damage in fighting, the greed of unscrupulous traders and collectors, and the organised of the barriers to such an agreement, but the threat vandalism by terrorist and other organisations wanting posed by ISIL must continue to be a motive for our to erase the past achievements of their cultures. It international efforts. would be good to hear from the Minister how the As the three hon. Members who have already spoken Government are supporting UNESCO in its work. underlined, both Iraq and Syria are exceptionally rich UNESCO leads on a series of international conventions in terms of their cultural heritage. Indeed, parts of what that set international standards to deal with the specific is now Iraq and Syrian territory have long been regarded risks faced by heritage during conflict, including most as the cradle of human civilisation. There are an enormous recently the statutes of the International Criminal Court, number of ancient sites in both countries, including which have defined the intentional destruction of historical Syria’s great Umayyad mosque, the 13th-century citadel buildings as a war crime. As the hon. Member for Newark that is part of the world heritage site in Aleppo, the site said, Britain has not yet signed up to the Hague convention of Palmyra, which the hon. Member for East Worthing on the protection of cultural property in the event of and Shoreham mentioned, the Krak des Chevaliers and armed conflict. Labour began the process of signing up the Salah Ed-Din, the ancient city of Bosra and the to it, but I understand that the current ministerial team many monuments in Damascus. It is clear that Syria has at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has much to lose in terms of its cultural heritage from the not yet followed up that work. Is the Minister able to ongoing conflict. As the three previous speakers have give a new commitment or is he only able to give—I say outlined, Iraq, too, has much to lose, including the this gently—some weasel words? ancient cities of Ashur and Samarra, and many other great sites of cultural heritage, which are under attack UNESCO has sought to raise international concern from the conflict within its borders. about the destruction of cultural heritage in conflict There may be some outside this House who ask, zones and to encourage better local readiness to prevent “Does what’s happening to those cultural sites in Iraq and minimise devastation of cultural sites in the event and Syria really matter? If it does, is it really that of conflict. It would be good to hear from the Minister important for the UK?” I share the view of the three the Foreign Office’s assessment of UNESCO’s effectiveness previous speakers that it does matter and that, at its in raising the issue’s profile internationally and in helping most basic level, heritage gives us a sense of place, gives local communities prepare for and mitigate the impact a people a sense of their shared identity, and helps to of conflict on cultural sites. Following on from a point bind nations together. Even though we in the UK may made by the hon. Member for East Worthing and never visit some or all of the sites mentioned in this Shoreham, how much funding, if any, does the Foreign debate, our shared humanity means that parts of our and Commonwealth Office or the Department for common heritage are being attacked. International Development allocate to help? As the excellent Lakhdar Brahimi, the former UN-Arab Illegal trafficking of cultural property is a major League joint special representative for Syria, said recently: threat to crucial heritage sites during conflict. In theory, “Destroying the inheritance of the past robs future generations UNESCO, Interpol, the World Customs Organisation, of a powerful legacy, deepens hatred and despair and undermines the International Council of Museums and many others all attempts to foster reconciliation.” are already lined up to work together to alert the art Indeed, the director general of UNESCO, Irina Bokova, market about the dangers of traded goods and to has talked of attacks on cultural heritage being, on attempt to limit such illegal trade. It would be helpful to occasion, part of a strategy of deliberate cultural cleansing, hear from the Minister the Foreign Office’s assessment with implicitly a recognition that it is designed to erode of the scale of such trade, and what, if anything, is collective identity, encourage hatred and therefore make Britain’s contribution to attempting to limit it? Are it easier for people to access less tolerant, less inclusive, Foreign Office Ministers, as the hon. Member for Newark more hostile and destructive ideologies. encouraged, raising the issue of illicit trade with our middle east allies? It is therefore not a surprise that ISIL has been involved in much of the worst recent attacks on cultural Last July, UNESCO held an emergency meeting that heritage, blowing up, for example, the shrine to the brought together cultural heritage experts from Iraq prophet Jonah in Mosul. There are also reports of ISIL and the wider international community to develop an bulldozing ancient statues along with Sufi and Shi’a action plan to mitigate the cultural damage from the shrines in Raqqa province. recent upsurge in conflict. A further international meeting As the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham was organised in late September by the French and was at pains to point out, however, it is not just ISIL Italian delegations to UNESCO to develop such ideas. that is at fault. The Syrian air force bombed the Krak What was Britain’s contribution to those meetings? des Chevaliers, and looters have taken advantage of the The brutality of ISIL demands a continuing, determined lack of Government to destroy eastern Syria’s ancient international effort to confront and limit its capabilities Roman city of Dura-Europos. I look forward to hearing in Iraq and Syria, while, as the hon. Member for Newark the Minister’s assessment of what is being done locally, rightly set out, the scale of their damage and that of in this incredibly dangerous and difficult conflict, to others to crucial cultural sites demands that Britain safeguard a series of key cultural sites in Syria and Iraq should be part of the international effort to help in that are under sustained attack. minimising the damage and should stand ready to support UNESCO, the UN’s cultural and heritage body, has efforts to rehabilitate the sites where possible. I look documented the multiple threats to Iraq and Syria’s forward to hearing the Minister say how Britain is most important cultural sites, including deliberate attacks, fulfilling that role and how it will do so in future. 1017 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1018 and Iraq) and Iraq) 2.30 pm already raised those concerns during meetings in Egypt and the Gulf, and he is doing so during his visit to The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I Baghdad today. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick) on securing this debate. Its quality has The Government are concerned that the smuggling of been hugely increased by both the long-standing interest historic artefacts is being used by terrorist organisations, and the long experience that he and my hon. Friend the including ISIL, to raise revenue. ISIL is the most abhorrent, Member for East Worthingand Shoreham (Tim Loughton) brutal terrorist organisation that the world has seen— bring to policies on archaeology and the trade in cultural certainly in modern times—and we have all been horrified antiquities. by the abuses it has committed against the people of Syria, Iraq and the wider region. It is worth reminding The Government are deeply concerned by the destruction ourselves, however, that although we rightly speak and of cultural and religious sites in both Syria and Iraq, think about the threat to ancient Christian communities, and particularly by the looting of historic artefacts and Yazidis and others, the majority of ISIL’s victims are the illicit trade in them. In Syria, damage has been Muslims. ISIL has as little respect for the lives and safety caused to all six UNESCO world heritage sites. As hon. of Muslims as it does for the lives and safety of others. Members have said, they include the old city of Aleppo, ISIL’s licensing of the wholesale looting of archaeological which houses souks going as far back as the 12th century, sites by criminal gangs is a further example of its and Krak des Chevaliers, which has stood since the cynicism. Our assessment is that ISIL is generating the 11th century. We believe that all sides in the conflict majority of its revenue from oil smuggling and extortion, have a responsibility to protect these sites of cultural rather than from the illicit trade in antiquities. However, importance. We are dealing not only with action by it is clearly our responsibility to ensure that we use all ISIL but, as has been said, with military tactics used by possible measures to deny ISIL access to funds and to the Assad regime in Syria that have caused considerable constrain it from executing its brutal campaign. damage, particularly to Aleppo, including air strikes, artillery and barrel bombs. The Government have been active on the international stage to discourage and disrupt smuggling, including of As was the case with the Taliban in Afghanistan and antiquities. UN Security Council resolution 2170, which the terrorists linked to al-Qaeda in Mali, we are dealing was adopted during the United Kingdom’s presidency with an extremist group in Iraq that is seeking to of the Security Council last August, prohibits all trade impose iconoclasm on any evidence of religious practice that assists ISIL. A further Security Council resolution that does not conform to its extremely narrow and due to be adopted today will oblige states to take steps perverted interpretation of Islam. In Iraq, the Green to prevent the trade in Iraqi and Syrian cultural property Church, one of the oldest orthodox Christian churches illegally removed from those countries. The second in the middle east, and the Mosque of the Prophet resolution demonstrates for the first time the international Younis have both been deliberately obliterated by ISIL community’s resolve to suppress the financing of ISIL explosives. As my hon. Friends the Members for Newark, through the illegal trade in cultural artefacts. As a for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and for East co-sponsor of the resolution, we have played a key role Worthing and Shoreham have explained, the wanton in ensuring that this source of terrorist funding was destruction is not only a cultural crime, representing the addressed by the Security Council. We continue to work loss of irreplaceable artefacts and manuscripts of times with our partners in Europe and beyond to ensure the past, but something with profound consequences. It has rapid and full implementation of both Security Council an impact on diversity in the middle east, not just resolutions, and to impose sanctions on individuals historically, but today and in looking forward to a middle involved in ISIL’s financing networks. east where, we hope, it will remain possible for people of We are engaging with our European partners to amend different faiths or different origins to live together in peace. the EU Syria sanctions regime to put beyond doubt the The destruction is undermining the rich cultural heritage, principle that, under its terms, the trade in artefacts history and sense of belonging of all communities in from Syria is illegal. We co-sponsored a resolution at Iraq and Syria. My hon. Friend the Member for the UN Human Rights Council last September, which Gainsborough was right to remind the House, as he did highlighted and condemned the destruction of monuments, in 2008—I spoke in that debate as the then Opposition shrines, churches, mosques and other places of worship spokesman—and on a number of occasions since, about in Iraq, and encouraged the Government of Iraq to the traumatic situation faced by Christians in their daily protect those sites. lives in the middle east. In both Iraq and Syria, the Before I come on to the specific points made during the destruction of heritage is placing an even greater strain debate, I want to issue a word of caution. As my hon. on social bonds, which were already stretched to breaking Friend the Member for Newark acknowledged, we must point. Looking forward to the day when there is stability be realistic about what the United Kingdom can do on again in both Syria and Iraq, one consequence of the the ground to protect historic and religious sites in destruction of cultural monuments is that the opportunities Syria and Iraq. We do not have a diplomatic presence in for cultural tourism will be much diminished, which will Syria, and we have no dialogue with the Assad regime. harm the efforts of both countries to rebuild their We are, however, aware of the ongoing destruction in economies and give their people opportunities. that country—notably by that regime itself—and such Hon. Members asked what the Government are doing attacks, while wreaking appalling cultural damage, also to raise such concerns with countries in the region. I can have a terrible human cost. tell the House that the Under-Secretary of State for We remain committed to degrading and defeating Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend ISIL so that it no longer poses a threat to the UK, the the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), who people of Syria and Iraq, or to that region’s cultural has responsibility for dealing with the middle east, has heritage, but we must recognise that this will be a 1019 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1020 and Iraq) and Iraq) [Mr David Lidington] that have been illegally removed from any location in Iraq since 6 August 1990. long-term campaign. The Government continue to push In terms of practical implementation, my colleagues for an inclusive political transition in Syria that will see in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have the end of the Assad regime, and we continue to support highlighted those orders with key stakeholders, including the Iraqi Government’s efforts to push back ISIL, recover the art market, the police and museums. The Arts Iraqi territory, and meet the needs and provide for the Council’s export licensing unit, which handles export safety of all Iraq’s communities. licence applications for objects of cultural interest, has We are assisting refugees and displaced people throughout provided exporters with notices on the prohibitions the region with the provision of more than £800 million applicable to cultural objects from Iraq and Syria. That of humanitarian relief. When it comes to spending guidance highlights the prohibitions and explains that priorities, I think we are right to give priority to that when export licences are sought, the export licensing humanitarian catastrophe and the millions of refugees— unit must be able to rule out the possibility that those people who have been displaced within Iraq and Syria items fall within the prohibited categories. and those who fled to neighbouring states—over other The Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003 forms of relief. We will therefore continue to prioritise makes it a criminal offence to deal dishonestly in tainted our efforts to end the conflict in Syria and Iraq so that cultural property from anywhere in the world, and peace and stability can be restored, and cultural and someone found guilty is liable on conviction in the religious sites protected. Crown court to a prison sentence of up to seven years My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and and/or an unlimited fine. If convicted in a magistrates Shoreham asked about the 1970 UNESCO convention court the maximum sentences are six months’imprisonment on the means of prohibiting and preventing the illicit and/or a fine of up to £5,000. DCMS has issued guidelines trade in cultural goods. That is generally accepted as the for collectors, auctioneers, dealers and museums, and key point of reference for an ethical approach by museums the Arts Council now runs a dedicated cultural property to their acquisitions, leading to greater checking of the advice website aimed precisely at those who are collecting, origin and provenance of items. The UK is party to that buying and selling art and antiquities in the United convention, and we supported the 1970 threshold as far Kingdom. back as 2000. As my hon. Friend knows, the Museums Let me respond to a number of specific points raised Association code of ethics published in 2002 includes that by my hon. Friend the Member for Newark. I mentioned 1970 threshold, and we are open to trying to persuade what the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and other countries that have not yet signed up to that Commonwealth Affairs is continuing to do in the middle convention to do so. east, but my hon. Friend also mentioned Germany, and My hon. Friend asked about the implementation by hinted at other European countries as places where the United Kingdom of European Union and United some of this illegal traffic is taking place. From my Nations sanctions on cultural property. Sanctions orders experience of dealing with the German Government, I are in place for both Syria and Iraq. The Syria regulation think that they would wish to crack down, and be seen covers to crack down heavily, on such illicit trade. I am happy “Syrian cultural property goods and other goods of archaeological, to ask our ambassadors and our consul general in historical, cultural, rare scientific or religious importance,” Munich—my hon. Friend particularly mentioned that city and prohibits their export, import, transfer or the provision —to speak with the relevant authorities there. It would of brokering services related to their export, import or be helpful if he could provide me with any detailed transfer evidence that we could draw to the attention of the “where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the goods have legitimate prosecuting and police authorities in those been removed from Syria without the consent of their legitimate countries. owner or have been removed in breach of Syrian law or international My hon. Friend also asked about turning the Hague law”. convention into law. The Government’s position is that The order applies to objects that have been removed we remain committed to ratifying it by amendment to from Syria on or after 9 May 2011. Exporting or statute, although it has not yet been possible to secure importing such goods contrary to prohibitions under the parliamentary time needed to pass the relevant that order automatically became an offence and attracted legislation. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Harrow penalties under the Customs and Excise Management West (Mr Thomas) slightly marred what was otherwise Act 1979—indeed, the order increased penalties for those a constructive speech by trying to sound a little partisan. offences. We believe that the Syria order provides an I have to remind him that the adoption of the second effective means by which to enforce EU and UN resolutions. protocol, as far back as 1999, removed the objections Comparable arrangements are in place for Iraq where that previous British Governments had had to adopting we have the implementation of United Nations rather than the original convention. It took the then Labour European Union sanctions. The 2003 Iraq order prohibits Government five years before they announced the intention the import or export of any item of illegally removed to ratify in May 2004, and they then had another six Iraqi cultural property, and requires anyone who holds years in office when they were unable to find the or controls any such item to transfer it to a constable—there parliamentary time to do so. I am glad that there is is a legal duty not only to refrain from participating in cross-party support for putting this into statute and I that trade, but if someone has such property, they must think it best if we approach the issue in that fashion. hand it over to the police without delay. The order defines illegally removed Iraqi cultural property as Mr Thomas: Will the Minister confirm whether there “any other items of archaeological, historical, cultural, rare scientific are any remaining blockages to the Hague convention or religious importance” on the protection of cultural property being implemented? 1021 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria 1022 and Iraq) and Iraq) Has the necessary parliamentary device been drafted, Culture and the Digital Economy, my hon. Friend the or do a series of consultations still have to happen? Are Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) and representatives there any other blockages preventing it from happening? of the relevant Government Departments and agencies. We could sit down and thrash out some of these ideas Mr Lidington: It is just a matter of finding parliamentary together and discuss whether there are ways in which we time against other priorities for Government legislation. can have the constructive effect that he and everyone My hon. Friend the Member for Newark asked what who has spoken in the debate would wish. work we would be doing with Iraqi museums to try to I am grateful again to my hon. Friend for bringing safeguard cultural properties. Again, this is a subject this subject before the House this afternoon and for that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and speaking with such passion and knowledge. I hope we Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member can build on what the Government have already been for Bournemouth East will be raising in Baghdad during doing and help in whatever way we practically can to his visit. Our embassy has for some years worked to safeguard what is the cultural heritage not just of Iraq strengthen the links between the archaeological communities and Syria, but of the human race throughout the world. in the UK and Iraq. Between 2013 and 2014, the embassy funded a project run by the university of 2.54 pm Manchester and the Iraq state board of antiquities and Robert Jenrick: I thank the House for today’s debate. heritage, which involved initiation of a joint archaeological As we have heard, we all agree that an appalling human research and excavation project at a settlement near tragedy is occurring in Syria and Iraq, and nothing we Ur in southern Iraq. It involved Iraqi scholars and have said today can divert our attention from that. practitioners in exploring the cultural heritage of their However, there are important questions that deserve to own country, giving them access to British expertise be answered, because the destruction of these sites, the through a programme of joint research and publications. looting and the streams of revenue coming out of it are We continue to do what we can to promote best practice financing that same loss of human life. It is all bound in Iraq and to help that country to safeguard its own up into one appalling tragedy. cultural heritage. I thank Members who have spoken, including my My hon. Friend the Member for Newark asked me if constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member the Government could take a number of further steps. for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who gave his He talked about a commission to gather information on personal experiences, as well as the appalling experiences making what he described as “modest funds” available, of the Christian community in Syria and Iraq. We all and various actions to enhance the priority that the agree with his comments. I also thank my hon. Friend police and other counter-terrorist agencies give to dealing the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim with the trade in antiquities. I am not at all unsympathetic Loughton), sitting at whose feet was like receiving a to what he is saying, but I provide a word or two of history lesson from a professor. He is the Gertrude Bell caution. Given that the United Kingdom does not have of the House of Commons, and I thank him for his access to the ISIL-controlled areas of either Iraq or incredible expertise on this issue. Syria and that we currently have no diplomatic mission I am grateful to the shadow Minister for giving up his in Syria at all, I question whether the British Government time and showing the commitment of the Labour party. are best placed to carry out the assessment that he has I know that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), in mind. We are not seen by the Assad regime, in to whom I have spoken about this several times, also particular, as a neutral party. UNESCO or another feels strongly. We will need to revisit the issue of the international agency might be better equipped to tackle Hague convention, which should be in the cultural this matter. manifestos of both main political parties—I suspect it Similarly, when it comes to requests for funds, whether will be in Labour’s, but I would love to see it in ours as it is the Government or the police, money spent on one well. I also thank the Minister for his generous response, item, however deserving, means money subtracted from and I would certainly like to take up his kind offer to another good cause, so there is a question of priorities. meet, as too, I am sure, would other Members. We would have to think through how such action would I have had the history lesson, and now I have some actually help the people on the ground—the curators, homework to do. There is more we can do to support the brave defenders of cultural heritage that my hon. the brave people on the ground trying to preserve this Friend described. Given the problems in gaining physical cultural heritage and to take some of the modest steps I access or sending money and other resources out to have described to tackle the financing of ISIS, in order Iraq and Syria, I would want to be certain that we were to defend both cultural property and human life in the delivering a good outcome and not just indulging in region and to promote reconciliation in the future. gesture politics. Question put and agreed to. It might be helpful to my hon. Friend, interested Resolved, colleagues and people from the museum and art world, That this House has considered destruction and looting of if I arranged a meeting with me, the Minister for historic sites in Syria and Iraq. 1023 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1024 Londoners Mental Health and Well-being of Members on both sides of the House have spoken. It is Londoners important to stress it, because we are nowhere near parity of esteem when it comes to the questions of finance and resources. I also want to talk about the 2.57 pm mental health and well-being of London’s lesbian, gay, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) bisexual and transgender community, and about the (Lab): I beg to move, growing crisis of mental illness among our children, That this House has considered mental health and wellbeing of adolescents and young adults. I shall also deal with Londoners. something not often spoken about—mental health issues First, I would like to thank the Backbench Business in our black and minority ethnic communities in London. Committee for giving me the opportunity to raise the It is important, because mental health is sometimes a important question of the mental health and well-being marginalised issue, to talk about the huge cost of the of Londoners. Mental health touches all classes and mental health challenges to London. Recent figures cultures in London. In consequence, it is important not indicate that almost a million adults of working age in just that it be viewed within the paradigm of health care London—15.8% of the adult population—are affected but that we understand that all elements of London’s by common mental disorders such as anxiety and socio-economic development are deeply rooted in the depression. I was in the House about 18 months ago well-being of our city’s residents. Unless we start seriously when Members of all parties bravely talked about their to tackle what I believe to be a rapidly unravelling crisis own experience of depression and how they felt a of service provision for mental illness, we will begin to stigma and found it very difficult to get treatment. see dire ramifications surfacing in all aspects of society, It is estimated that 7% of London’s population has including education, family stability and public order. an eating disorder, that one in 20 adults has a personality As the House will be aware, I have thrown my hat into disorder; that 1% of Londoners are registered with their the ring to be Labour’s candidate for London Mayor. If GP as having a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia, anything, this has sharpened my interest in these matters. bipolar and other psychoses; and that nearly half of Fundamentally, however, my interest in this subject Londoners are anxious. London has the UK’s highest derives from the fact that my mother was a nurse, and in proportion of people with high levels of anxiety. In the latter half of her career, she was a dedicated mental addition, almost a third of Londoners report low levels health nurse. I saw the mental health system through of happiness, which must clearly be exacerbated by the her eyes—the problems, the challenges—but above all I cost of living issues we have mentioned. The number of saw that she loved her job and that she genuinely loved Londoners reporting low levels of happiness is well over the people she nursed. Through her, I have always had 2.5 million. We London MPs see many of them in our an instinctive idea that people with mental health issues surgeries week after week. are human beings, too, and deserving of our love and In basic economic terms, almost £7.5 billion is spent care. each year addressing mental health issues in London, For three years, I was privileged to be shadow public while according to the Greater London Authority, the health Minister, and I was able to meet and learn from wider health, social and economic impact of mental many dedicated workers in both the public and voluntary illness costs the capital an estimated £26 billion. In sectors in the mental health field. The sad truth is that social care costs alone, London boroughs spend around mental health provision has long been chronically £550 million a year treating mental disorder, and another underfunded, and now, during a time of unprecedented £960 million each year on benefits to support people demand, the concern is that spending might be falling with mental ill health. There are some concerns about dramatically in real terms. the changes in welfare and the— Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): On the point that funding Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. might be falling, we in London also face the problem I fully appreciate that the hon. Lady is a parliamentarian that the cost of living is growing. Many people working of great experience, and I am not making this point for in public services such as mental health nurses and the sake of it, but she is not addressing the Chair. She is workers in mental health care are often low-paid in speaking to somebody over there on the Government comparison to others. People who come to see me are Benches, but while somebody over there might be able having difficulty finding places in London and some to hear what she is saying, the Chair cannot. I am sure services are finding it difficult to recruit staff, which has she is speaking of matters of great interest. It would be a knock-on impact on the standard of services. I wonder appreciated by the rest of the Chamber if she addressed whether my hon. Friend would comment on that. the whole Chamber. Ms Abbott: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. As he says, there are cost of living issues. Then there are Ms Abbott: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy spiralling housing costs. Health care in London has Speaker. As ever, you are punctilious about matters of some of the biggest turnover and some of the highest order. vacancy levels of any health care provision in the country. London boroughs spend about £550 million a year The pressures of the cost of living crisis and the housing on just the social care costs of treating mental disorders. crisis are making it increasingly difficult to provide Another £960 million is spent each year on benefits to permanent staff to meet the health care needs in general support people with mental ill health. Across the population, and the mental health needs of Londoners. the net effect of those wider impacts substantially affects I shall focus in my speech on the cost to London of London’s economy, infrastructure and population. Mental the mental health crisis and the importance of parity of health is not simply an issue for health and social care; esteem between mental and physical health, about which it is an issue for everyone. Mental health conditions 1025 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1026 Londoners Londoners debilitate London businesses each year by limiting employee My mother was a devoted mental health nurse who productivity and reducing the potential work force. dealt with geriatric patients with dementia. When my Every year £920 million is lost owing to sickness absences, brother and I were older and she went back to nursing, and a further £1.9 billion is lost in reduced productivity. she worked in a hospital outside Huddersfield called Moreover, the costs extend more widely: the staggering Storthes Hall. Thankfully, it has now been closed. It sum of £10.4 billion is lost each year to London business was another former Victorian workhouse, and it looked and industry as a result of mental health issues. exactly like a Victorian workhouse. One had only to The London criminal justice system spends visit that hospital, see the conditions there and then approximately £220 million a year on services related to visit the new Huddersfield royal infirmary in the centre mental ill health, and other losses such as property of Huddersfield to see physically demonstrated the damage, loss of stolen goods and the lost output of complete inequality in services offered to people with victims cost London a further £870 million. Those costs physical illness as opposed to people with mental illness. are already too high, but treatment costs are expected to For a number of years, there has been more focus on grow over the next two decades. Mental health issues mental health in all parties, which is to be welcomed, also prevent physical health conditions from being addressed and more focus on the importance of parity of esteem. properly. However, mental ill health remains one of the However, the financial issues are a challenge. For many least understood of all health problems. The problem is years, mental health has been chronically underfunded exacerbated by the existence of an obstinate and persistent and it has the reputation of being a Cinderella service. stigma that prevents people from talking about mental At national level, mental health accounts for 28% of the health or paying attention to the debate about it, and pressure in the NHS, yet on average clinical commissioning therefore prevents us as a society from addressing it groups spent just 10% of their budget on mental health properly. in 2013. Separate investigations by Community Care I want to say a little about the issue of parity of and the BBC showed that mental health trusts had their esteem between mental and physical health. The continuing budgets cut by 2.3% in real terms between 2011-12 and lack of parity of esteem, in terms of both funding and 2013-14. The effects of some of those cuts have been attitudes, underlies some of the mental health problems felt throughout the system. There have been difficulties not just in London, but throughout the country. As the in accessing talking therapies. Service provision is creaking daughter of a mental health nurse, I am very clear at the seams. Over 2,000 mental health beds have been about the fact that there is no parity of esteem between closed since 2011, leading to several trusts with sky-high mental and physical health. My mother came here as a bed occupancy rates. pupil nurse in the 1960s, and was part of the generation There is no question—perhaps Ministers will query of West Indian women who helped to build our NHS. this—but that austerity and issues with welfare, access She took time off work to bring up a family, but she to housing and unemployment have put some of London’s returned to nursing in the 1980s, and her subsequent most deprived communities under pressure. Welfare career in mental health exemplified the issues involved cuts, the lack of stable tenancies and improperly enforced in the lack of parity of esteem. employment regulations must have an effect on the The first thing that I want to say about parity of incidence of mental health-related illness. Therefore, on esteem is that those who might be described as the high the one hand we have cuts to funding and on the other a fliers in health do not necessarily go into mental health. rise in the conditions that affect people’s well-being and That has always tended to be the case. I shall never ultimately their mental health. That is a double-edged forget something that happened in 1987, when I was a sword that spells disaster for the well-being of Londoners. brand-new MP.The then chief nurse at City and Hackney The specific mental health needs of LGBT Londoners told me that I must visit the hospitals in the area. She are not discussed often. For a long time, London has said that I should meet her at 10 pm, and she would take been a city where young people come to find themselves. me to the three major hospitals in hospital: Bart’s, It is an inclusive environment where LGBT people are Homerton, and Hackney mental hospital. I met her, welcome. London boasts a dynamic gay scene and has and we went around Bart’s. She did not think it in any successfully hosted World Pride. LGBT Londoners are way remarkable that in Bart’s, even at the dead of night, now able to get married, to raise families and are equal we did not see a single black nurse. Then we went to before the law. We must safeguard those achievements Homerton, where there were quite a few black nurses by ensuring that they have access to appropriate health doing the night shift. The chief nurse said to me innocently, care and mental health provision. “Youknow, they”—meaning nurses of colour, I assume— It is time to change the stereotype that LGBT people “seem to prefer the night shift; our day shift is quite are busy partying and having a good time. Unfortunately, different.” it is not a wholly accurate depiction of the community. Then I went to Hackney mental hospital. Although There are various estimates about the incidence of this happened in 1987, I have never forgotten it. The mental health problems in LGBT groups, but research I mental hospital was, literally, an old workhouse. It was have seen says that sexual minorities are two or three as grim as anyone could possibly imagine—and, of times more likely to report having a long-standing course, all the nurses there, day and night, were BME. I psychological or emotional problem than their heterosexual am afraid that that pointed to a lack of parity of counterparts; and that two out of five LGBT people esteem, in the context of the way in which nurses were will experience a mental health problem at some point allocated and the direction in which their careers were in their lives, which is quite a high proportion. In 2014, leading. I am not in any way detracting from the specialists Stonewall said: in mental health, but in respect of nurses there has long “Compared to the general population, lesbian, gay and bisexual been a stratification when it comes to who should work people have higher rates of mental ill health as well as alcohol and in mental as opposed to physical health. drug consumption. Lesbians are also more likely to have never 1027 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1028 Londoners Londoners [Ms Abbott] commissioned by the Department of Health? Concerns have been raised in this House previously about the had a cervical smear test, while gay and bisexual men are more funding of services for children and adolescents, but it likely to experience domestic violence.” is clear in London in particular that there is an unravelling Particularly among young LGBT people, we see rising crisis in relation to young people and mental health. levels of self-harm. Homophobic behaviour is going As I said at the outset, London’s youth, and youth unchallenged in the workplace and on London’s public nationally, live in an era of unprecedented pressure. transport system, and hate crimes against LGBT people Data obtained from a freedom of information request remain stubbornly high. There are also issues about of top-tier local authorities in England by the mental access to mental health services for LGBT groups. health charity Young Minds revealed that in 2010-13 The situation is even worse for black and minority local authorities in London cut their children and adolescent Londoners who identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual, mental health service budgets by 5%, at a time of among whom rates of suicide and self-harm are higher increasing pressure on young people. The latest data than among than the population generally. Some 5% of show that Southwark cut its budget by 50%, as did black and minority ethnic lesbian and bisexual women Lambeth and Hounslow. Tower Hamlets cut its budget have attempted to take their own life in the last year, by 30%, and Haringey cut its budget by 10%. Those are compared with just 0.4% of men over the same period, some of the most deprived boroughs in London, and if and one in 12 have harmed themselves in the last year they are really cutting their expenditure on young people’s compared with one in 33 in the general population. mental health care to that extent, it is very serious. What are the Government doing to improve the training of NHS staff on the specific health needs of LGBT Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank my people and black and minority ethnic LGBT people, hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate her on because at present they are both challenged with higher securing the debate. She must be aware that the cuts in levels of mental health issues but have difficulties accessing mental health budgets are, basically, arbitrary because services? no one knows what the long-term demand will be. No There are particular challenges in London associated one knows what levels of demand are not being met with the recent reorganisation of the NHS, moving within communities because people are afraid to come responsibility for public health to local authorities. In forward even to discuss their need for some kind of principle that move makes it much easier to address the help. This is a huge problem and it needs to be given social determinants of ill health, including mental health, much greater attention by the Department of Health. but the concern is that because of pressures on local authorities funding for mental health will drop and the Ms Abbott: My hon. Friend is right to say that the ability to provide London-wide services for groups, cuts are arbitrary, and they certainly do not account for such as the LGBT community, will weaken. unmet need. In my time as a Member of Parliament—my The House will know that my party is not proposing hon. Friend must have had similar experiences—I have to put the NHS through a further reorganisation when met many mothers and other people who are unable to we return to office in a few months’ time. However, access the mental health care that they need, particularly it would make sense for existing structures in London to talking therapies. Cutting provision at a time when we monitor outcomes for LGBT people throughout the do not even know the size of unmet need is very capital, and given the complexity and size of London dangerous. we cannot simply take a one-size-fits-all approach to I want to turn now to mental health care provision LGBT issues. for the black and minority ethnic community. I have Youngpeople today are living in a time of unprecedented looked at this issue over many years, and I believe that pressures, with smartphones, the internet, a world of the manner in which the mental health system fails 24-hour communication, new avenues for bullying, new people of colour is a tragedy that has been consigned to fears and new concerns. The issues are plain to see in the shadows for too long. As well as talking about the growing demand for services for young people across parity of esteem between mental health and physical London, with London hospital admissions for self-harm health, we need to talk about a parity of care between rising from 1,715 in 2011-12 to 2,046 in the last year. At all sections of the community, and at this point that is least one in 10 children in the UK is thought to have a not happening. I hope to set out briefly some of the clinically significant mental health problem, which amounts findings of the research that has been carried out over to 111,000 young people in London. The impact of the decades on black people and mental health, but my childhood psychiatric disorders costs London’s education central point is that black and minority ethnic people system approximately £200 million a year, and in 2013 are not getting parity of care and service. This is a the Children and YoungPeople’s Mental Health Coalition long-standing issue that goes back decades, and I call found that 28% of joint health and wellbeing strategies on the Government to do what they can. I shall also call in London did not prioritise children and young people’s on the incoming Labour Government to pay attention mental health. to this issue in a way that has not happened in the past. What are the Government doing to ensure that joint Governments genuinely need to understand and address strategic needs assessments look at, and include information these needs. about, the size, impact and cost of local children’s Black and minority ethnic mental health is a particular mental health needs, to ensure that sufficient services issue for London because half Britain’s black and ethnic are being commissioned? Will the Minister ensure that minority community is inside the M25. Sometimes it is data about BME young people and children will be hard to get the data we need, but we know, for instance, comprehensively included in the new national prevalence that in Lambeth—less than a mile from this Chamber— survey of child and adolescent mental health being more than half the people admitted to acute psychiatric 1029 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1030 Londoners Londoners wards, and more than 65% of the people in secure work. I noticed that there were no black and minority wards, are from the Caribbean and African communities. ethnic people there and when I asked about this I was told, I know from regularly visiting Hackney’s psychiatric “Oh, we find that black and minority ethnic people wards, and the Hackney forensic unit, that the proportion don’t benefit from talking therapy.”That is an extraordinary in Hackney is as at least as high, if not higher, than that. attitude. We need to do more to make talking therapy We have accurate statistics for Lambeth, but we only available across communities, including BME communities. have to walk into psychiatric wards across London to Black people are also statistically more likely to be see that the majority of beds in the big mental health offered electroconvulsive therapy—in other words, they institutions such as the Maudsley are occupied by people are more likely to be plugged into the mains. There is of colour. also a terrible history of deaths in mental health custody, which are often to do with the type of restraint used I remember, as a new MP in 1988, raising the and a fear of a violent black male. There is a whole disproportionate number of black people on wards string of such cases, of which Sean Rigg’s is one of the with the head of psychiatric services in City and Hackney. most recent. I asked, “Why are so many people on your wards black and minority ethnic? It’s way out of proportion even Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. with the population of City and Hackney.” City and I appreciate that the hon. Lady is developing some very Hackney produced three very senior psychiatric doctors important points, but I should draw to her attention the to talk to me about this. They turned to each other, fact that the allotted time for an introductory speech in paused, muttered, and one suggested that it might have a Backbench Business Committee debate is 20 minutes. something to do with “ganja psychosis”. Another then I have allowed her well over half an hour, as I appreciate ventured the opinion that perhaps more mad people that not many people are making demands on the time were migrating from the Caribbean. I had to say to him, in the House this afternoon and that she is addressing “It’s hard enough to get into this country if you’re sane; important issues. Even given all that, I trust that in the it is to the highest degree unlikely that the authorities very near future she is likely to come to a conclusion. are allowing all these mad people to come into the country.”But the striking thing about that conversation Ms Abbott: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy was that it was not some casual conversation on a ward; Speaker, as you are so precise about order. I would not the head of psychiatric services had marshalled the want to think that the length of my speech will prevent three most senior psychiatric doctors in City and Hackney, anyone else who wishes to speak from entering into the and the only explanation they could offer for their debate. wards being full of black people was “ganja psychosis”. In conclusion, let me say that the issues I am raising I was struck by how low the level of knowledge was and about mental health in London—the cost of mental how low the level of interest was. health to Londoners, and the effect of the under-provision I also know from my years as a Member of Parliament of mental health services in London, not only to the how many black families are struggling with the individuals and families who suffer, but to London as a consequences of the mental health system’s failure to whole—are vital ones. I am glad I was able to bring offer the right support at the right time, and the help them to the House and I am sorry if you feel I have gone and services to which they are entitled. One of the on at too great a length, Madam Deputy Speaker. The saddest things I see in my work as a Member of Parliament issues associated with what is happening to black people is black mothers, single heads of household, struggling and mental health include the lack of provision, the with black males in their household who clearly have over-representation in the system and the fear that chronic mental health problems. I have had women come black families have of the mental health system. So this to see me who have been assaulted by their own son. is a huge issue, and it is one that is not debated enough When they are told that they should go to a GP and that in this House. I am sorry that you felt I spent too long perhaps their son needs to be sectioned, they say,” No, on the issue of black people in London and mental no, no.” That is because there is a terrible fear in the health. What is happening to our young people and black community of the mental health system. Some children is a new crisis, which is definitely not being women would rather risk assault by their own son and debated in this House, and I am glad to be able to draw live in fear than consign their son to the mental health it to the attention of the House. system, because their understanding is that once that Absolutely in conclusion, may I say that these are system gets their child, the child is pumped full of drugs vital issues for Londoners. In the end, addressing health and never comes out again or, if they do, they are not care is about addressing all the social determinants—the the same. So it is time this Government and any incoming welfare system, housing, employment or education. I Government give more attention to issues relating to am glad to have had the opportunity to draw the black people and mental health. House’s attention to how serious the crisis is, particularly in relation to our young people. I wait with interest to Those issues have not altered in decades: there are hear what the Minister has to say. disproportionate numbers of black people, particularly men, in the system; we are more likely to be labelled 3.30 pm “schizophrenic”; we present later to the system, which makes matters worse; we are more likely to come to the Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I am pleased to mental health system through the criminal justice system, speak on this subject, and congratulate the hon. Member particularly by being picked up by the police on the for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) street and finding ourselves sectioned; and we are less on securing the debate. likely to be offered talking therapy. I remember going in The hon. Lady went through a lot of statistics, which the ‘90s to a mental health therapy centre in west London I do not intend to repeat, but I will touch on some of that specialised in talking therapy and did excellent the areas that she did not cover. Briefly, I wish to look at 1031 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1032 Londoners Londoners [Dr Matthew Offord] will pick up people if they look like they are going to harm themselves or others, and then they will invoke what is already occurring in the capital city, the cost of section 136. mental health and the action that I would like the Minister to take. Ms Abbott: I probably did not make myself clear. I It is unfortunate that the hon. Lady did not acknowledge was saying that people of colour—black and minority the work that the Mayor of London is already doing on ethnic people—are far more likely to enter the mental this issue. Indeed, he has assisted in several projects, health system as a result of being picked up by the including the Pan-London Dementia Action Alliance police. That is all I was saying. I was not making a and the Local Authority Mental Health Challenge, and general point, but a specific point about that being one he has worked with a range of partners to influence of the main ways we enter the mental health system. people, including many Members in this House. He has also worked with NHS London and the boroughs to Dr Offord: I am grateful for that clarification and I support young people. Importantly, he has used his own thank the hon. Lady for it. office, the Greater London authority, to look at the way that it treats staff with mental health issues. Jeremy Corbyn: I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman was saying about his experience with the Some time ago, I wondered whether I would employ police in his borough of Barnet. I have similar discussions someone with a mental health condition, and I concluded with the police in my borough and although many of that I would. What pleased me about my own self-searching them are well aware of the vulnerability of people with was that when I considered people with other handicaps, mental health issues, it seems that there is a lack of I realised that I would not be able to employ somebody consistency in the Metropolitan police training on this with a physical handicap simply because of the layout and a lack of continual awareness raising for police of this building; they would not be able to get around officers, before they attend the scene, on the need to the Palace estate. It did challenge me to think about look for a mental health condition when they find myself and how I approached mental health within the somebody behaving in an odd or strange manner on the workplace. street. Let me raise a few points from the Mayor of London’s report, “London mental health: the invisible costs of Dr Offord: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point, mental ill health”, which the hon. Lady did not mention, which is certainly something that I would be willing to but she did pick up on quite a few of its figures, take up with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. including the £26 billion a year we spend on the economic That was not my experience, but as it has been the hon. and social costs of mental health issues in London. She Gentleman’s, I think it is a useful footnote for me to also mentioned that one in 10 young children have a take back to show that the approach is not the same all significant clinical mental health problem. over London. I am grateful for that. I am aware that the London boroughs—my own I realise that the Minister is a public health Minister borough of Barnet comes second in terms of spending— and not a Minister in the Home Office, but I am keen spend about £550 million in this area. When I was a that police officers should not be delayed for up to eight councillor in the London borough of Barnet, as indeed hours of their shift by taking people to hospital to seek the Minister was, we were keen to ensure that we not an assessment under section 136 of the Mental Health only cared for our looked-after children, but played our Act 1983 only to find that a doctor is not available and part as a health provider in terms of spending on no assessment can be made. I have spoken to several mental health disorders. custody sergeants who have made the point that I will make again: a police cell is not a substitute for a place of I am also aware—as I am sure other Members are—from safety in the form of a hospital. I am keen to take that looking around my surgery or meeting my constituents up with the Home Office myself. that a significant number of people in the capital suffer The Mayor’s report said that of every £8 spent on from depression. Indeed the Mayor’s report shows that long-term health care, perhaps £1 is spent on people just over 41% of people suffer from some kind of anxiety with mental health issues. I spent two hours this morning compared with 38% in other areas. What is concerning at the Whittington’s wonderful ambulatory care centre is that those figures are higher in inner London than in opened by the Government, and I congratulate them on the outer London boroughs. It would be interesting to that. It is easy to see people who clearly have long-term find out why that is, because we could then direct medical health problems, and one suspects that their resources as necessary. Indeed, we could look at local mental health might be in the same fragile state as their authority funding. We could lobby the Minister and the physical health. If we include the £1 in every £8 spent Department to ensure that out constituents were not on long-term health care, that adds another £2.6 billion losing out on necessary treatment because of the spending to the £26 billion that we are spending on health care in in local authorities. London cited by hon. Lady. We certainly need to address I wish to make two other points. One relates to the that. criminal justice system. Back in the summer, I spent I am aware that in west London there has been an some time with a Barnet police team and Inspector initiative as part of the London growth deal to help Moseley. The biggest gripe they had related to their people to get into employment. Indeed, the local enterprise ability to address and to help people with mental health partnership has secured money from the Government’s issues. One area where I diverge from the hon. Lady is transformation challenge award, and I congratulate the this idea that because someone has a mental health Government on that. I want to see more work going illness they will be picked up by the police. The police ahead. 1033 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1034 Londoners Londoners It is not only people with long-term health conditions need to send a gentle message to the Metropolitan who are likely to suffer from mental health issues, but police that within training, there should be as much the long-term unemployed as well. I understand that awareness as possible of the mental health conditions approximately 46% of the people claiming employment that exist within the community. and support allowance for more than two years have We have moved on a long way in debates on mental mental health issues. I speak not as someone judging health in this House during the time that I have been those people but as someone who has experienced mental here. When I was first elected, a person with a mental health issues in my family and have seen the consequences health condition was not allowed to stand for Parliament. of that. Indeed, the Daily Mirror was kind enough to The Speaker had the power to section Members of publish an article on me and the consequences of mental Parliament under the Mental Health Act—may still do, health issues in my family. Although most of it was wrong, for all I know. Mental illness was generally the butt of I will put that to one side. I will not use the Chamber as humour—of universal jokes—so that people going through a confessional, but the media have an obligation and a a crisis, perhaps depression, felt unable to talk about it responsibility to report issues to do with mental health and felt it would blight their career prospects in any in a more positive and indeed less derogatory fashion walk of life if they did talk about it. Consequently, only than they have. if they had the money did they seek private help and Finally, I pay tribute to colleagues who have worked private counselling; if they did not have the money, they hard on this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for suffered, and might lose their job and end up with a Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) was blighted career. instrumental not only in securing a debate in this House to which I was able to contribute but in promoting All of us can go through depression; all of us can go mental health issues through some of us writing an through those experiences. Every single one of us in this article for a pamphlet he published. I am grateful to him Chamber knows people who have gone through it, and for that. I also congratulate my Whip, my hon. Friend has visited people who have been in institutions and the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who have fully recovered and gone back to work and continued introduced a Bill to allow people with mental health their normal life. I dream of the day when this country disorders to stand in this place. becomes as accepting of these problems as some Scandinavian countries are, where one Prime Minister Although I am proud of this Parliament’s record, I was given six months off in order to recover from would like Government action on the employment of depression, rather than being hounded out of office as people with mental health issues, and more Government would have happened on so many other occasions. action to provide people with a place of safety that is not a police cell. I would like the health service to ensure The issues that I shall raise are much the same as that its mental health professionals are always available, those raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney so that police officers do not spend their time waiting in North and Stoke Newington in opening the debate—on accident and emergency departments for a professional the disproportionate extent to which the people one to see a person who has been sectioned under section finds in mental health institutions come from the black 136 of the Mental Health Act. I look forward to the and minority ethnic communities, and the socio-economic Minister’s response. imbalance on mental health issues. People who lead stressful lives, without housing security, without job 3.40 pm security, without financial security, frightened about the consequences of what their children are up to or whether Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I congratulate their children can get a job and so on, are sometimes my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and affected by levels of stress that the rest of us would not Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on obtaining the debate. even want to think about. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) and I am delighted that he had such a The access point to mental health services is usually profitable morning at the Whittington hospital in my the GP. That is the great thing about the national health constituency.The ambulatory care centre is indeed excellent. service, although sometimes it is the problem of the It was a product of a community and all-party campaign national health service. A GP surgery at its best is to defend the A and E department some years ago. We brilliant, recognises the holistic needs of the patient and won that campaign, and as a result we have a thriving A does its best to accommodate those holistic needs. The and E department and a new and very efficient ambulatory GP system at its worst is a single-handed GP who may care centre. I attended its opening with colleagues. It is a have been there a very long time, become rather set in great place and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman was their ways, is not very interested in people coming to well treated there. I hope he will write and tell the them with stress or other psychiatric-related problems, hospital so. and does not refer them for any kind of therapy or counselling. The point that the hon. Gentleman raised on policing, on which I intervened, is serious. I make no general I am concerned about the length of time people wait criticism of the police force as a whole, but I do think for counselling or support. A report commissioned by that when the police are called to an incident in a the British Psychoanalytic Council and the UK Council shopping centre, or in the street or elsewhere, they need for Psychotherapy, based on over 2,000 psychotherapists to be well aware that some of the people there may be working across the NHS, the third sector and in private suffering from a mental crisis, may be mental health practice shows that in the NHS and the third sector patients, and need to be treated with some degree of “57% of practitioners said client waiting times have increased care and understanding. Many police officers are very over the last year, 52% report fewer psychotherapy services being understanding and very careful about that; I am not commissioned in the last year, 77% report an increase in the trying to make any general criticism. I just think we number of complex cases they are expected to deal with.” 1035 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1036 Londoners Londoners [Jeremy Corbyn] boxer, Frank Bruno, had mental health issues, had a front page headline, “Bonkers Bruno”, for which it The report continues: eventually had to apologise? “The strain on publicly funded therapy services means that the private psychotherapy sector is increasingly ‘picking up the pieces’ Jeremy Corbyn: The Sun has had to apologise for with individuals who have been failed by the NHS. The vast many things, not least that. We need a process whereby majority of private therapists (94%) report they regularly see we change the mood music still further on the treatment clients who feel let down by the NHS”. of people with mental health problems. I am absolutely not attacking the national health service. There is a local project in my constituency called That is the last thing I want to do. I want the national IBUG—Islington borough user group—where people health service to be there and available for all. I do not attend meetings to talk about the kinds of stress they go want it to so ration its services that those with fairly through and the support they get. It is very interesting desperate needs are forced to suffer, seek voluntary help to talk to those people, who are incredibly well informed if they can get it or, if they can afford it, get private and intelligent. support. There are excellent local organisations in my area, I say to the Minister that I understand all the demands including iCope—Camden and Islington Psychological and financial pressures that are placed on mental health Therapies Service, and the Women’s Therapy Centre, trusts across London. I am pleased that the trust in my which do a great deal to improve the local service and area, Camden and Islington Mental Health and Social put a lot of pressure on the local health authority. An Care Trust, is much smaller than most. That is partly, I excellent report was produced by Louise Hamill and suspect, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Monika Schwartz, who both work in my area and have Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) and I stressed done a great deal of work on the subject. I urge the strongly that we wanted to keep the service fairly small Minister to have a look at that report and at the very rather than go into a huge segment of London, as trusts serious proposals that they put forward. in other areas have. The network for mental health did a survey which We have a number of very good walk-in places that identified the 10 most important issues relating to mental those with a mental health problem can go to. Lunch is health treatment. I will not list them all, but the most provided, or they can cook their own. Art therapy and important seems to me to be access to timely and various other forms of support are available. That is all appropriate treatment. If someone going through a good. However, if we turn those places into something mental health crisis or depression cannot get seen by over-formal where appointments and references are somebody, they become more and more agitated and required, and people can go there only if they have been stressful. If we have target times for cancer treatment, sent, that takes away the feeling of an oasis. I have met we ought to have target times for being seen and getting people who have recovered well from whatever they have the necessary support at times of mental stress. Likewise, been through, and are working, but sometimes they feel reducing stigma and discrimination is important, as is the need to unburden themselves with others who have looking at the effects of benefit and welfare system been in the same situation. It is important to have that reforms. kind of walk-in facility. I hope that the Minister will take account of that in the planning of these issues in I have had far too many anecdotal reports from London. constituents and others who go for a Department for Work and Pensions availability for work test. If they A couple of days ago, INQUEST launched a report have a physical disability, it is usually fairly obvious and called, “Deaths in Mental Health Detention: An it can be quantified and, we hope, taken into account in investigation framework fit for purpose?” I have a copy how the interview and test are conducted. If somebody here. INQUEST is a national organisation that is based has a mental health condition, it is not so obvious and in my area. It deals with the issue of deaths in custody. cannot be so easily quantified. There are far too many It has been around for a long time, is very effective, and cases where the stress levels are unbelievable for people does very good work. The report states: who have been forced into these tests. Their condition “The number of deaths in mental health detention is high in has not been taken into account, they have been declared comparison with other forms of custody. The most recent IAP fit for work, and they then go into a crisis of stress figures show that out of 7,630 custody deaths recorded between 2000-2013, 4,573 deaths were of detained patients—making up because they feel they simply cannot cope. It is place 60% of the total numbers of all deaths in custody.” where we could all be, and we should have some respect for people in that situation and do our best as a society It then draws attention to the need for a genuinely to help them get through it. independent investigation into these deaths. We have the Independent Police Complaints Commission, although That leads me on to education and publicity and how it could perhaps be stronger, and the prison and probation these issues are dealt with. The media have got somewhat ombudsman to deal with those two areas where deaths better. It is now not routine for TV and radio comedians in custody take place, but, the report says, always to make jokes about people being stressed out, mad, depressed and so on. Things have moved on a bit “no such equivalent investigative mechanism exists to scrutinise deaths in mental health settings.” and I pay tribute to colleagues in all parts of the House who have stood up in the Chamber during the annual We should look at that. mental health debate and said exactly that about ending In 2003—quite a long time ago—INQUEST submitted discrimination. evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights inquiry into deaths in custody in which it noted: Ms Abbott: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of “Of particular concern is the failure of government or any of the worst examples of the way in which the media treat its arms length bodies to even collate and publish annual statistical mental illness was The Sun which, when the well known information about deaths of detained patients…we believe” 1037 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1038 Londoners Londoners that as a result can think of obvious reasons, some of which have been “some contentious deaths could escape any public scrutiny”. mentioned. One example I have come across—and not I urge the Minister to look at the report, which is very just during my time as a Member of Parliament—involves serious, well prepared and well researched. people who come here from another country. Their spouse may not be too conversant with the language and find The report also expressed concern about the use of themselves incredibly isolated. They do not have the restraint methods in mental health institutions and the stress of unemployment, but a culture change can cause wholly a lot of problems and that may explain why quite a lot “disproportionate number of people from BAME”— of the people I see in this context were born abroad. black and minority ethnic— I am also worried that some families, for reasons that “communities and/or those with mental health problems” are human and understandable, do not want to believe who there is a problem. We have to educate ourselves that “have died following the use of force, raising questions about mental illness should be treated in exactly the same way discriminatory treatment and…attitudes”. as physical illness. I might find it easier if my spouse or Very serious questions have been raised. one of my children came to me with a physical complaint. I could cope with that and understand how we might be My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and able to get treatment, but mental health is still incredibly Stoke Newington has done the House a service by stigmatised. securing this debate. We need greater and more effective assessment of the needs of mental health services across That leads on to what my hon. Friend the Member London, because there is still a stigma in some areas. for Hendon (Dr Offord) and the hon. Member for Some communities and families are more able to come Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said about jobs. Over forward than others. We need to create an atmosphere the decades, Members of Parliament have had serious in which people understand that we can all experience mental health issues, but they have hushed it up because stress and that we all need help at some time in our lives, it would not have been particularly good for their and the NHS must and should be there to provide that electoral chances; there also used to be a ruling on such help when it is needed. matters. It is the same with other jobs. If someone came to us and said that they had a history of mental illness, we as employers would have to make a difficult decision. 3.55 pm I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): Hendon say that he would take someone on; I hope that First, I would like to apologise to the hon. Member for I would. It should not be a difficult decision, but Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), something innate in us might give us concerns. because I was not able to be here for her speech. I heard some of it upstairs, but I had been detained in my Ms Abbott: I am listening with great interest to the constituency and did not think the debate would start right hon. Gentleman’s very thoughtful speech. His quite so early. My powers of being able to work out earlier point about how people who come from abroad such things when I was a Whip are obviously diminishing can feel isolated may account for the very disproportionate fast with my impending retirement. mental health figures for the black and minority ethnic community. This is a very important subject and, unfortunately, it is not often tackled. As Members of Parliament we see a large number of people who suffer from some form of Sir John Randall: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for mental health issue, and I have to say that it is one of making that very valid point. Anecdotally, I can bear the things that I find most difficult to deal with. In the that out from constituents I have seen, although not by past 12 months, one of my constituents, Miss Deborah any means exclusively. King, who is very active in making people aware of the Another issue I have come across is when someone problems, has drawn my attention to a mental health desperately needs help—they need to see someone to first aid course, but I regret that I have not had time to try to sort things out and to get treatment—but, possibly go on it. The course tells people not how to treat others, because they are quite far down the line, they do not but how to recognise and deal with the issue. I have said accept that they have a problem. I can think of several that I have not had enough time, but I should have cases where a husband or a wife was so nervous that made time. It is rather like saying that I do not have time they looked at me and said with their eyes, “Can you to exercise. Time should be made for such things and I please do something?” but when I said that they should urge those who will be Members after the general perhaps go to see their GP because it was a very election to see whether such mental health first aid stressful time for them, the immediate reaction of the ill courses will be available. Mind organises them in our person was to say, “There’s nothing wrong with me—I’m area, but there may be others, too. not going.” I do not know how to get round that: we do I would also like to suggest some form of training for not want to force people, but it is very difficult to help first-time MPs—perhaps the House authorities could them if they will not accept that something is wrong. lay something on—because this is one of the issues of Another group with which I have become connected, most concern. As hon. Members have said, we now know because I am interested in this area, involves victims of that mental illness is much more common than we human trafficking and modern slavery. People who have would have liked to have thought 20 to 30 years ago. We been, as it were, freed we now call survivors. They have know the statistics of how many people will be touched been taken away from the world in which they were working by some form of mental illness—it could be a person’s —forced labour or sexual exploitation—and outwardly close family member, for example, or that person they seem fine, but they do not appear to have any help. themselves—but we do not know the reasons for it. We We have only to think of what they have been through 1039 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1040 Londoners Londoners [Sir John Randall] Lords tabled amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill on parity of esteem between mental and to realise that they almost certainly have severe mental physical health. As this debate has shown, however, health issues, but there do not seem to be readily accessible there are challenges in how that measure is put into services for them. In many cases, they are not EU practice. citizens or have entered the country illegally, so they are concerned that if they present themselves to the immigration Since then, mental health has risen up the agenda as authorities, the first thing that will happen is that they more evidence emerges not only of the scale of mental are deported. That only makes the situation worse. health illness, which affects one in six of us at any one time, but of the huge costs involved. In London, meeting The hon. Member for Islington North made the very the mental health needs of the large and diverse population valid point that when we talk about health—a general poses a challenge, and it is welcome that tackling the election is coming, and there is lots of discussion and cost of mental illness has been identified as a priority by dispute about the health service, with figures and statistics the London Health Board. Of course the challenges are bandied around—mental health statistics are hardly significant. In London almost £7.5 billion is spent each ever mentioned. As he said, we should have targets on year addressing mental illness, while the wider health, how quickly people see successful outcomes, as far as social and economic impacts of mental illness cost the they can, and on where resources are going, but we do capital an estimated £26 billion. not have them. As Members of Parliament, we are aware from our meetings about the various illnesses that people As we heard from my hon. Friend, the pressures that have, and we know that a lot of people feel like Cinderella mental health services face across the country are being because their illness is perhaps not as well known as acutely felt in London. Last week the Care Quality cancer or something else. Mental health services, however, Commission published a report that found that last probably deserve the title of Cinderella services, because year the mental health in-patient system was again people do not recognise them. running over capacity. By the last quarter of 2013-14, My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon spoke about the number of available mental health NHS beds had a confessional, but I will say only that during my time in decreased by almost 8% since the first quarter of 2010-11. this House—particularly serving in the HR department That is putting mental health professionals under extreme in the Whips Office—I have seen people who suffer pressure, and more vulnerable people have to travel from extreme depression and stress caused by all sorts hundreds of miles to get the treatment they need, or of things. The House authorities, to their credit, have they are getting no treatment at all. improved mental health services and people can be I have had the privilege of visiting many fantastic referred to them, although often they do not want to be. services across the country and in London, such as the We must be much more sympathetic. If such things Channi Kumar perinatal unit at Bethlem Royal hospital, happen here with the people we have in this place, the Camden psychotherapy unit, and most recently the goodness knows what it is like for people in the less mental health service users group, the Lancaster Centre affluent areas of our constituencies. in Enfield. In response to the right hon. Member for London has a problem because of the nature of big Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall), I should cities—I am sure that is the case. The title of this debate say that I have also visited Dagenham council, which is mentions the well-being of Londoners, and that is training 1,000 front-line workers in mental health first something we should consider. My personal therapy aid. That is an example we can all learn from. involves open spaces and bird watching, although I recognise that is not for everybody. Open space, a bit of I have seen at first hand the pressures our mental health exercise, walking around—that is good therapy, and we professionals are experiencing. They are working extremely should ensure that those facilities are open to all. hard in very challenging circumstances. I would be very I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney North interested to hear the Minister’s immediate plans to ease and Stoke Newington on securing this debate. I am the pressure on in-patient mental health services in sorry for my late arrival and also that—last thing on a London. I think the key question we should be asking is Thursday and just before a recess—this debate has not why so many people in London need in-patient mental attracted large numbers of people. That has allowed me health care in the first place. Could it have anything to to speak, for which I am grateful, and I wait to hear the do with the fact that mental health spending has been Minister’s response. cut in real terms for the first time in a decade? There are thousands fewer mental health nurses and hundreds fewer mental health doctors now working in the NHS. 4.6 pm Is it because of the fragmentation of commissioning Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): across our health service since the introduction of the I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney Health and Social Care Act 2012? North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and the other My hon. Friend rightly talked about the pressures on sponsors of this debate for ensuring that the House can child and adolescent mental health services in London. discuss such an important issue. I also thank hon. The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip Members on both sides of the House for their contributions, said that we do not talk about this issue, but I challenge that. which are testament to how much mental health is a In recent weeks, we have seen front pages of newspapers vital challenge, not just in London but across the country. covering this specific issue. I echo the concerns raised by In recent years we have seen a growing appreciation my hon. Friend that the CAMHS budget has been cut that mental health is just as important as physical in real terms by £50 million a year since 2010. We have health in ensuring the well-being of the population. seen other false economies, such as: cuts to early intervention Almost three years ago my colleagues in the House of and psychosis services; a reduction in the number of 1041 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1042 Londoners Londoners social workers; and the decimation of the early intervention I want to deal with the issues raised by hon. Members. grant, which we know is putting so much pressure on On poverty, insecurity and disadvantage, there is a in-patient services. social gradient for many types of mental health, such as depression, with those in lower income groups more Just today, I received a letter from the Danshell likely to experience them than those in higher income Group, an organisation that provides 20% of CAMHS groups. The incidence of mental illness varies sharply provision across the country, including in London. It between boroughs in London, with some mental illnesses wrote to me because it is very concerned about the state twice as common in deprived parts of London as in the of CAMHS, particularly in London. The contract they least deprived. We have heard today how Government have been offered by NHS London for the next financial policy can be a major factor, and the National Housing year will see a 40% reduction in the number of CAMHS Federation estimates that one in seven households affected beds it can offer, down from 26 to 16. NHS London has by the bedroom tax are now at risk of eviction. Given said this is because of its “financial envelope”. This the cross-cutting nature of these challenges, I am keen reduction will have a very real impact on many young to hear what steps the Minister is taking to ensure that people. The provider is already forced to reject more all Departments take mental health into account when than 30 patients every month. Its concern, which I developing policy. We are concerned that the Cabinet share, is that these young people will end up in A and E, Sub-Committee on Public Health, which brought together have to go to medium secure facilities if no low secure all those cross-cutting Departments, no longer exists. facilities are available, or be sent home because there is nothing or nowhere that can help them. This is simply We are keenly aware that we are in the midst of a unacceptable and cannot carry on. housing crisis, but this is particularly acute in London. In all but two of London’s 33 boroughs, at least one in In addition to the 50 extra beds NHS England has 20 people are on council waiting lists, and across London commissioned across the country for CAMHS, I am as a whole more than one in 10 are on waiting lists. keen to know what steps the Minister is taking to Behind these shocking statistics, however, are thousands address the bed shortage in London and across the of families living in overcrowded, temporary and often country. The letter I received said that NHS London is poor-quality private rented accommodation. The impact going to reduce the number of beds even further. This is on family life, and the life opportunities particularly of a very particular and significant concern. At least one children, is huge. My hon. Friend also referred to the in 10 children is thought to have a clinically significant spiralling costs of housing. The average rent in London mental health illness, which equates to 111,000 young is well over £1,000, which has a significant impact on people in London. The impacts of childhood psychiatric many families. Poor housing, overcrowding, insecurity disorders cost London’s education system approximately and lack of access to community facilities can have a £200 million a year. For people to be presenting at harmful impact on mental health as well. Will the hospital, particularly to specialist mental health services, Minister tell us what actions she is taking nationally to means their mental illness has usually become much ensure that health and housing needs are considered more serious. Waiting until that point to address problems together by both service commissioners and providers? is not only worse but more expensive too, as it requires more specialist health care from other services. My hon. Friend rightly raised the particular experience of the black, Asian and minority ethnic communities in We need more focus on prevention and promoting London. People from BAME communities in the UK good mental health. The principle of prevention has are more likely to be diagnosed with a mental illness. long been the driving force behind public health policy For example, they have a threefold increased risk of for physical health, but there is no comparable body for psychosis, and for black African and black Caribbean public policy interventions for mental health. Will the groups, this rises to a sevenfold increase. It is completely Minister share with the House what actions she and her unacceptable that people from BAME groups living Department are taking to ensure we are doing everything with mental illness are more likely to experience poor we can to prevent mental illness in the first place? outcomes from treatment. There is so much work to be My hon. Friend referred to the distinct challenges done to tackle these inequalities, particularly in a city as London faces, particularly in relation to mental health. culturally diverse as London. What steps is the Minister I note that she uses “well-being” in the title of today’s taking to ensure that mental health services are culturally debate. This is not all about mental illness. London has relevant to service users? the UK’s highest proportion of the population with The previous Government’s action plan on BAME high levels of anxiety. Nearly half of Londoners are mental health, “Delivering Race Equality in Mental anxious, and almost a third report low levels of happiness. Health Care”, ended in 2010 and has not been renewed Life satisfaction and feelings of worth in London are or replaced. We believe we need a renewed focus and lower than the national average. leadership on tackling race inequality in our mental Mental health is shaped by the environment in which health services. Does the Minister have a plan for a new we live our lives and for most people that is not in the national strategy to tackle race inequality in our mental NHS, but in our homes, communities, schools, colleges health services and to ensure improved outcomes for and workplaces. These institutions can help or harm BAME communities? My hon. Friend also rightly raised mental health, sometimes quite profoundly, and this is the particular challenges of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, particularly true for Londoners, who experience stark and transgender community in accessing mental health and unacceptable differences in well-being and length services, and I hope the Minister will address that too. of life. If we can begin to address these basic and My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North too-often-ignored problems in the capital, we can begin (Jeremy Corbyn) raised the serious issue of the recent to unburden ourselves of both the moral and economic INQUEST report into the deaths of people in treatment costs of mental ill health. or in-patient care. Anyone who saw the “Newsnight” 1043 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1044 Londoners Londoners [Luciana Berger] country. Some Members spoke about the reasons for that—those things that we know are responsible—and report this week will have been very concerned, and others suggested alternative reasons. I would slightly again I would be interested to hear from the Minister guard against the over-use of the word “crisis” and about that. exaggerating to make a political point. To prepare for this debate, as the House would expect, I met some of Jeremy Corbyn: Would my hon. Friend support an the leading mental health clinicians in London and put investigation, on the basis of the INQUEST report, some searching questions to them. I did not gain a sense with a view to changing the regime of inspection, of crisis, although we all gain the sense that this area inquiry and appeal where there are tragic deaths in has not been given sufficient attention in the past and custody? She must be aware, as must the rest of the needs to be given far more attention in the future. We all House, that many people in mental health institutions agree on that, and I hope to outline some of the areas are completely alone, never get any visitors or support that the Government are paying attention to and working and are at the mercy of what we, the state, are prepared on. to provide and do for them. The Government’s commitment to prioritising mental health is encapsulated in the principle of “parity of Luciana Berger: I thank my hon. Friend for his esteem”, which others have mentioned. This means important intervention, and for raising the point earlier. equal priority for mental, as for physical, health. This It is right to look at this issue. It is very clear from the commitment was set out in our mental health strategy, report that INQUEST has outlined and provided that “No health without mental health”, in February 2011, many serious challenges have not been addressed. Part and was made explicit in the Health and Social Care of the challenge is that people find themselves isolated Act 2012. Planned NHS spending on mental health is because they are placed in care and treatment, which expected to grow by over £300 million in 2014-15, and can be hundreds of miles away from their homes, families in our five-year plan for mental health, “Achieving and support structures. This means they are less likely Better Access to Mental Health Services by 2020”, we to have visitors. Seeing the footage of one family’s identified £40 million of additional spending for this experience—of their child’s in-patient care and the quality year, and freed up a further £80 million for 2015-16. of her surroundings—was frightening. I hope that the This will for the first time ever enable the setting of Minister will address this specific report and share with access and waiting time standards in mental health us what the Government intend to do to look at the services, to which the hon. Member for Islington North issue a lot more closely. (Jeremy Corbyn) alluded. We have heard today that mental health is one of the Looking at the constituency of the hon. Member for most unaddressed health challenges of our age. Mental Hackney North and Stoke Newington, I am sure she health services across our country are increasingly facing would welcome the fact that the City and Hackney significant challenges, and as we have heard today these clinical commissioning group has increased spending pressures are being acutely felt in London. Meeting the on mental health services by almost 4% this year, and is mental health needs of London’s population is critical investing almost £2 million in a range of new service to ensuring the future health and economic sustainability alliances intended to reduce service variation, reduce of the capital. In order fully to tackle these pressures, inequalities, and improve access and recovery outcomes. we must end the false economies and the stripping back of preventive and early intervention services that we I was glad to hear my hon. Friend the Member for have seen under this Government, and achieve a new Hendon (Dr Offord) refer to the Mayor’s London Health focus on prevention and early intervention. I look forward Commission and the work done by the Mayor’s office. to the Minister’s response. The hon. Lady also referred to the work of the Greater London authority. The commission, led by the Mayor, has identified the mental health and well-being of 4.21 pm Londoners as a key priority for the Mayor’s office. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Indeed, the Mayor has said: (Jane Ellison): We have, unsurprisingly, had a very “Mental ill health is an issue that affects millions of Londoners, thoughtful debate, and this has been a welcome opportunity yet we are too often frightened to discuss it, worried about what to discuss such an important topic. I hope that the hon. people might think, or unaware of who to turn to.” Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) will That very much captures what was said by my right forgive me if I focus my response on Back-Bench hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip contributions, given that this is a Backbench Business (Sir John Randall). Committee debate. She regularly debates these issues In a report on London mental health which was with the Minister of State who leads on care issues. published in January last year, the Mayor made clear I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney North that mental health is an issue for everyone who lives and and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on securing this debate works in the capital. The report attempted to quantify, on an issue that is important to her and her constituents, as far as possible, the impact of mental ill health on and to me as a London MP and my constituents. It is Londoners in order to gauge the scale of the problem. I good to see a broad cross-section of London colleagues shall not repeat the statistics, but they show that there is in the Chamber. a considerable impact not only on individuals and their The fact has been well established that at least one in families, but on the economy of our city and everything four people will experience a mental health problem at that flows from it, and on the costs of care. However, some point in their life. As others have said, that means despite those substantial costs, diagnosis and treatment an estimated 2 million Londoners, and we know that rates for mental disorders have remained poorer than London has the highest rates of mental ill health in the those for most physical health conditions. NHS England 1045 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1046 Londoners Londoners has worked with partner organisations to establish a that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon mentioned strategic clinical network for London chaired by Matthew that. Let me also draw attention to his distinguished Patrick. The network’s members include MIND, Rethink record in respect of looked-after children; I was very and the National Survivor User Network. aware of his work when we were both on Barnet council. Let me now deal with the important issue of race Public Health England also plays a role in addressing equality in mental health care, to which the hon. Lady the mental health needs of Londoners and is engaging devoted much of her speech. The issue is obviously of with schools, teachers and pupils to promote and build great concern to her, but it is of concern to all of us, resilience among young people through the London because we all acknowledge London’s incredible diversity, grid for learning. As a partnership, City and Hackney, although the degree of diversity in our constituencies about which I was briefed in anticipation of the debate, varies. Our commitment to tackling inequalities in access has one of the highest spends in London and England to mental health services is set out in our mental health on CAMHS—close to £5 million. action plan “Closing the Gap”, which was also published I want to pick up a point that the hon. Member for in January last year. That plan recognises that people Hackney North and Stoke Newington mentioned with from black and minority ethnic communities are less regard to BME children being recorded in prevalence likely to access psychological therapies. We are working data. I want to give her some assurance on that. The with the sector to find out exactly why that is, and what commissioning of a new prevalence survey on children can be done to change it. NHS England is also working and young people and mental health is a priority for the with BME community leaders to encourage more people Department. Our chief medical officer has identified to use psychological therapies, and to establish the reason the need for prevalence data on the mental health of for those barriers. In 2012-13, as part of the Time to BME children and young people. Therefore, we anticipate Change programme, the Department of Health funded that the new survey will look at the prevalence of issues a mental health anti-stigma and anti-discrimination in those groups and we hope to announce the procurement project. It ring-fenced 25% of a fund amounting to up process in the near future. to £4 million for work with African and Caribbean More than £400 million is being invested over the communities, which involved building partnerships with spending review period to make a choice of psychological trusted BME organisations in BME communities. I therapies available in all parts of England for those who think that, to some extent, addresses the point made by need them. We all acknowledge that we are not there the hon. Member for Islington North, who is no longer yet, but it is important that as part of the “Five Year in the Chamber. Forward View”, NHS England has committed that, by NHS England has worked with Black Mental Health April 2016, 75% of people referred to the IAPT programme UK, and has established a leadership programme for will be treated within six weeks of referral and 95% will GP mental health leads for London. A BME taskforce be treated within 18 weeks of referral; and that more is undertaking a root-and-branch review of mental than 50% of people experiencing a first episode of health services in London, to ensure that they are psychosis will be treated with a National Institute for equitable and free of ethnic bias. I am not sure whether Health and Care Excellence-approved care package within the hon. Lady is in touch with the taskforce, but I am two weeks of referral. Those are important and ambitious sure that she would want to be. I shall ensure that she is targets to secure improvement in this area. given details of who is leading it, and I should be happy Data on mental health bed occupancy has not been to put other Members in touch with it if they want to routinely collected across the NHS London region, but know more. NHS London has initiated a process to do that to allow I must put on record that the hon. Member for year-on-year comparisons to be made. The first year of Islington North is now present. He may not be in the the initiative was 2014. The results of that suggested place where he was before, but he is here. that across the different types of mental health in-patient The mental health trust in east London is strengthening facilities occupancy rates ranged from 78% to 100% families, with a focus on support for BME groups, by during the period the audit was undertaken, which was helping the families of patients with serious mental September to November 2014. health issues, using an approach that treats the condition London’s CCGs are committed to delivering the IAPT as being similar to any other long-term chronic illness access and recovery targets for 2014-15. Additionally, and providing positive support and advice. That, I the hon. Lady’s CCG, City and Hackney, is using a think, addresses a question raised by a number of range of alliances—I was interested to hear about this— Members: why, in many instances, are such different across CAMHS, psychological therapies, dementia, primary approaches taken to physical and mental illness? care and crisis services to improve the integration of Members rightly expressed concerns about child and service partners, with a clear focus on involving voluntary adolescent mental health services. It is estimated that sector and social enterprise groups. I am sure that that 50% of mental illness in adult life begins before the age is mirrored in other parts of London. of 15 and that 75% of mental illness in adults starts The hon. Lady raised the challenges facing LGBT before the age of 18, so—as others have pointed out—early people. The National Institute for Mental Health in intervention is key. Over the next five years, we will invest England carried out a review that showed that LGB £30 million a year in improving services for young people are at greater risk of suicidal behaviour and people with mental health problems, with a particular self-harm, as others have said, and that the risk of emphasis on eating disorders, which were also mentioned. suicide is four times more likely in gay and bisexual We are investing £54 million between 2011 and 2015-16 men, while the risk of depression and anxiety is one and in the children and young people’s IAPT—improving half times higher in LGB people. I was interested to access to psychological therapies—programme to transform hear what she said—it mirrors my experience—highlighting child and adolescent mental health services. I am glad the concerns of young gay people from BME communities. 1047 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 Mental Health and Well-being of 1048 Londoners Londoners [Jane Ellison] Jane Ellison: I will of course bring that report to the attention of the right Minister in our Department, and I have experienced that too as a constituency MP. the hon. Gentleman is correct to highlight it. Interestingly, some of those people said that the worst I want to give a note of assurance on street triage, prejudice they experienced was from within their which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member community. In that regard, London’s diversity also poses for Hendon. The DOH has funded nine street triage us a challenge sometimes. We as constituency MPs, and pilots, with police and mental health professionals working in other roles we have in our communities, must try as together to support people in crisis. In the areas where much as possible to stand up to and challenge that the pilots are operating, the number of people being when we acknowledge London’s diversity. detained under section 136 has dropped by an average West London mental health trust has a specialised of 20%. There are some encouraging results. gender dysphoria service, the largest in the country, On the points made only by the hon. Member for which is accessed following GP referral to general mental Islington North, we are obviously concerned about the health services with a question as to whether the patient reports of high levels of physical restraint. Restraint has gender dysphoria. The total annual value of that should only ever be used as a last resort, and we think service is £9.9 million. The London Lesbian and Gay that the transfer of police custody health to the NHS Switchboard provides national information and a listening and commissioning to a standard specification, together service over the phone and by e-mail and instant messaging. with liaison and diversion services being available in The helpline operates from 10 am to 11 pm, seven days every police station, will help to improve that situation a week, 52 weeks a year. It is based in London but takes and the care and advice available to people in police calls from the whole of the UK. I thank all local LGBT custody. support groups. They do such a great job. I look forward I am proud of the Government’s record on mental to spending this evening with the Wandsworth LGBT health, but we have always acknowledged that there is forum at one of its film nights. We will watch a new film more to be done, and I would not want to suggest any that addresses issues of particular concern. That complacency on the part of Government on this vital organisation provides a great service in my community. issue. I will certainly draw to the attention of my DOH I am sure other people have the same experience. colleague the Minister of State who has responsibility As we have heard, mental health crisis care is crucial. for care, all the issues raised by Members on both sides The first national crisis care concordat was published in of the House in this very thoughtful debate. I end by February last year to improve service responses to thanking all the people in our constituencies—whether people in mental health crisis, and in particular to keep within the NHS, the voluntary sector or all the community people in mental distress, who have committed no crime, groups that Members have acknowledged—who provide out of police cells. NHS England has signed up to the care to those experiencing mental ill health. We are mental health crisis concordat and is in active partnership grateful to them all for what they do to keep Londoners in London with the police, the ambulance service, the well. mental health trusts, CCGs, local government and the voluntary sector, as we would expect. Huge progress has 4.38 pm been made in London in reducing the number of people Ms Abbott: I listened with care to the Minister’s taken to police cells for assessment after they have been speech and she can be sure I will be returning to many detained under section 136 of the Mental Health Act. I of these issues in the coming months. I was particularly am pleased to tell the House that this number has glad to be able to put issues relating to London’s LGBT reduced from several hundred a year to less than 20. and black and minority ethnic communities on the That is a very welcome process. record, because they are rarely discussed. Interesting contributions were made by Members on I beg, in the gentlest way possible, to differ with the both sides of the House about the conversations we Minister on the issue of whether there is a crisis in respect have had with our local police agencies. I, too, had an of mental health and young people. The correspondence interesting experience when I went out with two very that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree impressive young officers as part of my rapid response (Luciana Berger) explained to the House about the cut unit locally. They showed great understanding of the in beds is very worrying. This is an important issue all challenges they met. It was nice that that was acknowledged over the country, but particularly in London. In a city in all parts of the House, while also recognising the very that is so fast-moving and with individuals subject to so considerable concern that the hon. Member for Islington many pressures, it behoves the House to pay constant North raised about deaths in custody. attention. Jeremy Corbyn: I am sorry that I was out for a couple Question put and agreed to. of minutes during the Minister’s concluding remarks. Resolved, The point about deaths in custody is essentially about That this House has considered mental health and wellbeing of the powers of investigation—the powers of inquiry. In Londoners. my experience, too often it is left to the randomness of whether there is a family and community support network PETITIONS or not. If there is not one, absolutely nothing happens; Stance of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on if there is one, something might happen. I am sure the Hamas Minister is aware of this, and I would be grateful if she would have a good look at the INQUEST report on this 4.39 pm subject. Perhaps her Department might like to study it Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I am honoured and come up with some proposals in relation to its very to present a petition that has been signed by a number sensible suggestions. of Jewish people who live in my constituency. It was 1049 Mental Health and Well-being of 12 FEBRUARY 2015 1050 Londoners handed to me by a constituent, Mr Lewis Herlitz, on Scotch Whisky Industry behalf of Fair Reporting. My constituency has a wonderful Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Jewish community, who are very concerned about the do now adjourn.—(Damian Hinds.) anti-Semitic sentiments that they believe are being fuelled by events in the middle east, and about the lack of clarity in the language being used by the Foreign Office 4.41 pm regarding those events. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I should like to The petition states: start by thanking Mr Speaker very much for granting The Petition of residents in the Southend West constituency, this important debate. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Foreign Office With 14 distilleries, the whisky industry is an important view Hamas as a plausible negotiating partner for creating a employer in my constituency. It provides jobs in remote peace agreement with Israel; further that the Petitioners believe communities where alternative work would be hard to that such a view is incorrect as Hamas’s own political charter find. With eight distilleries, whisky is clearly important clearly states that it seeks nothing less than the destruction of to the economy of Islay.On Jura, with its small population, Israel; further that the Petitioners believe that the Foreign Office is unwilling to clearly declare that it deplores the use of civilians the island’s distillery is a vital part of the local economy. and civilian buildings by Hamas as part of Hamas’s warfare There are also distilleries in Campbeltown, Oban and strategy; Hamas’s consequential abuse of civilian properties as Tobermory which contribute significantly to the economies places from which to launch attacks on Israel, and its abuse of of those communities. In addition, many of my constituents civilians as human shields resulting in a disproportionate loss of are employed in the whisky industry or its supply chain life; further that the Petitioners believe that Israel is the only in neighbouring West Dunbartonshire and elsewhere in democracy in the Middle East, and is the only place in the Middle Scotland. East where Christianity and other faiths can co-exist peacefully and thrive; further that a lack of clarity in support of Israel My reason for seeking today’s debate is to draw the contributes to anti-Jewish sentiment; further that the Petitioners House’s attention to the important contribution that recognise the need for, and the rights of, the civilians of Gaza and Scotch whisky makes to the United Kingdom economy. other Arabs who live within and around Israel for a peaceable Whisky distilling began as a cottage industry in Scotland, existence; and further that the Petitioners believe that the lack of but its success has meant that it has grown enormously demonstrable public clarity by the Foreign Office to support and now contributes significantly to employment and Israel and to deplore Hamas is deeply concerning. the economy throughout the whole UK. Scotch whisky The Petitioners therefore urges the House of Commons to is the UK’s largest food and drink sector, accounting for request that the Foreign Office explains its actions and views on Israel, and clarifies its view of and position on Hamas. a quarter of the UK’s food and drink exports. Scotch whisky adds £3.3 billion directly to UK GDP and, once And the Petitioners remain, etc. indirect jobs are taken into account, its total impact is [P001436] to add almost £5 billion to the UK economy. Every Closure of Barclays Bank in St Agnes £1 of value added in the industry produces an additional 52p of value in the wider economy. 4.40 pm I should like to give the House an idea of the scale of the Scotch whisky industry in terms of the value added Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I rise to to the UK economy. The industry is bigger than the present a petition on behalf of residents of St Agnes UK’s iron and steel, textiles, shipbuilding or computer relating to the closure of the Barclays bank branch industries, about half the size of our pharmaceutical or there. It is the last bank in that thriving community. A aerospace industries and about a third the size of the local petition on this issue has received 2,827 signatures. entire UK car industry. That should give Members an The petition states: idea of the scale of employment in the industry. The Petition of residents of St Agnes, The Scotch whisky industry spends £1.6 billion annually Declares that the Petitioners oppose the plans to close the on supplies from within Britain, ranging from cereals St Agnes branch of Barclays Bank; further that the Petitioners and glass to machinery. That economic impact is felt feel that the branch is a vital element of their community; and throughout the UK, with 90% of the industry’s operating further that a local Petition on this matter has been signed by expenditure being spent with UK suppliers. I am thinking, 2,827 individuals. for example, of packaging from Wales, yeast from The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Staffordshire, glass from Yorkshire and logistics from urges the Government to encourage Barclays to reverse their Essex. As a result, Scotch whisky supports more than decision to close the branch in St Agnes or to postpone the 40,000 jobs directly and indirectly across the UK, many closure to enable the Petitioners to work with the bank to make it more viable for it to be kept open. of which are highly skilled. As proof of that, Scotch whisky workers are the third best paid in Scotland, only And the Petitioners remain, etc. behind workers in energy and life sciences. Many of [P001435] those jobs are in rural communities where alternative employment would be hard to find—about 7,400 jobs are in Scotland’s rural communities. In terms of production, Scotch whisky workers comprise the second most productive sector in Scotland, behind only energy. Scotch whisky exports are worth more than £4 billion annually. Scotch whisky is the second strongest contributor to the UK national trade performance. The 2013 trade deficit would have been 16% higher without the Scotch whisky contribution. As well as those raw statistics, Scotch whisky makes other contributions which 1051 Scotch Whisky Industry12 FEBRUARY 2015 Scotch Whisky Industry 1052

[Mr Alan Reid] As I have set out in this debate, Scotch whisky is a British success story. This industry and its supply chain cannot be quantified. As an iconic Scottish industry, it provide highly skilled jobs throughout the UK and helps to put Scotland on the world map and plays a make a significant contribution to reducing our trade major role in attracting foreign tourists to Scotland. I deficit. Continuing to tax this industry at 80% will not have reeled off all those statistics to show just what a bring in extra revenue to the Treasury. In fact, it will high-value, high-quality product Scotch whisky is and probably see revenue decline. Such a high level of taxation the very important contribution the industry makes to risks killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs, and the whole UK economy. will result in lower revenue to the Treasury in the future. I also want to put on the record the industry’s thanks I hope that this afternoon’s debate has shone a light to the Government for the great back-up it receives on the unfair treatment of an iconic Scottish and British from them on efforts to break down trade barriers product and its vital contribution to our economy. I throughout the world. Those Government efforts have hope that I have convinced the Exchequer Secretary helped whisky exports enormously and are a very good that a 2% cut in the duty on whisky would boost the reason for Scotland to remain in the UK. Having the British economy. I do not expect an announcement this resources of the UK Government behind the industry afternoon—that would be a bit much to hope for—but results in breaking down trade barriers far more effectively I do hope that, after the debate, she will rush round to than would be the case were the back-up from a much No. 11 and convince the Chancellor of the need for a smaller Scottish Government. cut in taxation for this British success story. A cut in Having praised the Government for the help they give taxes would boost the industry and help the wider to the industry’s export drive, I have to draw attention British economy. to what has become a significant barrier to the industry’s Madam Deputy Speaker, the Exchequer Secretary success in the UK market: the level of taxation. A bottle and everyone else present, I say slàinte mhath—good of whisky is taxed at almost 80%. Most people are health. shocked when they become aware of that statistic and agree that it is far too high. It is important to bear in 4.50 pm mind that the UK is the third largest market for Scotch whisky, yet the domestic trade has been in decline in Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): recent years. The taxation is a particular obstacle for I congratulate the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute the new and small-scale distillers, who rely on a thriving (Mr Reid) on securing this extremely important debate. domestic market to grow, and they say that the current Like him, I have many constituents who work in the duty regime is damaging their prospects. It is important whisky industry and who benefit from it. I emphasise to bear in mind that the cash flow in the whisky industry that the whisky industry is not just a Scottish industry; is very unusual; whisky has to mature in a cask for many it is very much a UK industry, and UK workers enjoy years before it can be bottled, so investors in a distillery quality jobs, permanent jobs and quality pay as a result have to wait for many years to get their money back and of the whisky industry. must have confidence in the future before they will I also genuinely congratulate the Minister on her invest. The many years of the alcohol duty escalator work. She has been extremely generous with her time, as have been very damaging to the Scotch whisky industry. she has met the representatives from the Scotch whisky Excise duty on Scottish whisky is now 44% higher than industry. There is all-party support for a tax cut for the in 2008, and, as a result, the domestic trade declined in industry. recent years. I will not repeat all the statistics around the Scotch For reasons lost in the mists of time, whisky is taxed whisky industry; I am sure that the Minister is well unfairly compared with beers and wines—the tax per aware of them. I am not doing a disservice to the people unit of alcohol on whisky is far higher. I fail to see the who work in the industry, but we have rehearsed all the logic in that. Surely a tax in proportion to the amount arguments with the Minister, and she knows what they of alcohol in the drink would be much fairer. The are. The only brief comment I wish to make is to reflect Scotch whisky industry deserves a level playing field. It what the whisky industry is saying. David Frost, chief is important to note that the unfair taxation does not executive of the Scotch Whisky Association, met the just have an impact on the Scotch whisky industry in Minister recently. He said : the domestic market; the Scotch Whisky Association “We had a warm and constructive discussion with the Exchequer tells me that when it tries to convince other countries to Secretary to the Treasury…The Minister clearly understands reduce unfair tax barriers, those countries often highlight Scotch Whisky’s economic importance and we welcome her interest the UK’s taxation regime. They say that the UK taxes in the industry. In the UK, Scotch Whisky is under sustained whisky at a much higher rate than other drinks and use pressure from taxation. 80% of the price of an average bottle of that as a justification for doing the same thing in their Scotch Whisky is taxation and we hope the government will take own country. on board our concerns about the negative impact of this onerous tax burden.” I was delighted when in last year’s Budget the Chancellor announced the abolition of the alcohol duty escalator He went on to say: and froze the duty on whisky—that was a help to the “In last year’s Budget, the Chancellor highlighted Scotch industry, which was seen in a small boost to the volumes Whisky as a ‘huge British success story’. We hope this year too he of single malt sold at the end of last year. That suggests will show his support for this world-class manufacturing industry, which adds £5 billion to the UK economy and £4 billion net to the that the duty freeze resulted in growth in the industry. I UK trade performance every year. We hope the Government will hope that the Chancellor will recognise that duty on back us by cutting duty by 2% for Scotch Whisky this year. This whisky is too high and will cut it in the Budget. A would be fair to consumers, send a powerful signal to export 2% cut would help to boost the industry and allow it to markets, support public finances, and most of all promote investment create more jobs. and jobs.” 1053 Scotch Whisky Industry12 FEBRUARY 2015 Scotch Whisky Industry 1054

We hope that the Government can see clearly where helps with non-compliance in the industry, ensuring they are going with this and I look forward to the day of that those who buy Scotch get the real deal. That is of the Budget when the Chancellor will have a dram at the course a step change and we have worked in conjunction Dispatch Box as a way of promoting good Scotch with the SWA. The hon. Gentlemen will be very familiar whisky. with that work. Of course, UKTI has an important role to play in supporting Scotch whisky across our worldwide 4.53 pm network of embassies and in bringing it to new and emerging markets, from Lebanon to India to Taiwan, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): all of which have seen exports increase by more than a I congratulate the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute quarter in the past year alone. (Mr Reid) on securing this debate, and I thank him for The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute was right to the constructive points he has raised today. Anyone talk about the lobbying on the abolition of the hated who has enjoyed a dram will recognise the historic duty escalator in the Budget last year. I campaigned for whisky producing names in his constituency. Islay and that myself, so I am familiar with the campaign. Of Jura in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency has some of course, it demonstrates that we should not punish a the finest malt whiskies in the world, and that is something successful, world-famous industry with excessive taxation. that we should all commend, celebrate and be proud of. The all-party group on Scotch whisky and spirits has The world-famous whiskies and distillery experiences been very good in its representations and I thank it for on offer are also key contributors to the tens of thousands that. It is fair to say that although I am naturally not in of visitors who come over every year. I absolutely a position to discuss anything to do with the Budget at understand the significance of tourism in his constituency this stage, I have heard clearly from all Members this thanks to the whisky industry, which translates into afternoon the arguments that have been made about the jobs. level of taxation on whisky, particularly when compared There is no doubt, as we have heard from both the with other alcoholic drinks. Those points have come hon. Member for Argyll and Bute and the hon. Member out in my meetings with stakeholders and the industry, for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), too. about the wider economic benefits of Scotch whisky to the Scottish and British economy. They are significant Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I speak and have also been highlighted in the report by the not as a producer but as a drinker of whisky, as are Scotch Whisky Association. It is only fair and right that many of my constituents. The archivists at HMRC and I should pay tribute to everybody who has spent time the Treasury might be able to dig out the meetings some engaging with me, including all hon. Members in the of us had with the then Chancellor, my right hon. and Chamber this afternoon and the all-party group. In learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), particular, I thank them for highlighting that Scotch back about 19 years ago, when he was convinced that it whisky is the biggest food and drink sector in the was better not to increase and to drop the whisky duty. United Kingdom, representing nearly a quarter of our That led to an increase in revenue, so was fair to food and drink exports. drinkers, to producers and to the Revenue, which seems The industry supports, both directly and indirectly, to be a sensible thing to do, and we look forward with more than 40,000 jobs, 92% of which are in Scotland. confidence to the Budget. The significance of the industry is phenomenal, with a contribution of in excess of £3 billion directly to UK Priti Patel: I thank my right hon. Friend for his GDP, and an overall impact of £5 billion. recommendations and advice to go back and look in the Distilleries and visitor centres add an additional archives. I shall certainly do that. £30 million to the Scottish tourism industry every year. I need no persuading of the considerable impact that Of course, this is also about the tremendous image that the industry brings to Scotland and the United Kingdom. the industry presents of both Scotland and the United Obviously, all decisions on taxation are under constant Kingdom across the world. The hon. Member for Argyll review, and we are particularly receptive to helping and Bute talked about the export markets, and in particular industries flourish in some of our most remote regions. the work of UK Trade & Investment, the work we do As I have said, decisions on the duty will be made by the across Government to ensure that Scotch whisky is a Chancellor at the Budget, and I do not wish to pre-empt major economic asset to Scotland and the UK, and why anything in relation to the Budget. We want to ensure it is important that we keep it in its unique position. that Scotch whisky continues to be enjoyed around the For example, we have introduced the spirits verification world for many years to come, and we want Scotch scheme to protect the integrity and high reputation of whisky to continue to be a great flagship brand. Scotch whisky brands in the export market, which is Question put and agreed to. where 90% of Scotch whisky ends up. It is about having high standards and setting standards on production 5pm and labelling for producers to sign up to. That particularly House adjourned.

311WH 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 312WH (Local Development) decision were made to build a third runway, rather than Westminster Hall the Heathrow Hub proposal of an extended runway—which is one of the three Davies commission options—the Thursday 12 February 2015 flight path would be directly over central Hammersmith, exposing all my constituents to noise nuisance, not only those at the southern end. [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] However, Heathrow expansion is a much bigger issue than pollution, congestion and the disruption of life for National Infrastructure Projects 2 million people who live in west London. Therefore, I will simply say that most people—not everyone—who (Local Development) live in west London constituencies, whatever their view on the merits or demerits of airport expansion per se, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I call the Minister believe that it should not be at Heathrow and that there to move the motion in the name of the Prime Minister. are acceptable alternatives. For that reason, although Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting one could go into great detail about the deleterious be now adjourned.—(Mr Kris Hopkins.) effects of Heathrow expansion, that is not what I want to talk about this afternoon. The effect on the local Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): We all know that environment will be entirely negative. the country would be a very different place if the The Thames tunnel is slightly more interesting, although Minister were indeed the Prime Minister. it is also a controversial project. My view is that we need to alleviate the severe sewer flooding into the Thames. It 1.30 pm is completely unreasonable in the 21st century—given Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): It is a that it was thought completely unreasonable in the great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this 19th century—to have huge quantities of raw, albeit afternoon, Mr Hollobone, and to have sufficient time to diluted, sewage flow into the tidal Thames area on a explore this interesting issue. I am delighted to be joined weekly basis. Nobody has come up with a convincing not only by the two Front Benchers, obviously, but by alternative. People talk about sustainable urban drainage my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and and other methods of redesigning the joint sewage and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), who I suspect may talk rain water system altogether, which I do not believe are primarily about the subject to which I am going to practicable. However, there are many problems with the devote most of my speech. Thames tunnel’s financing, its cost and the role that Thames Water, as a private company, is playing in the Let me begin by explaining and delimiting the topic process. Those problems remain to be resolved. of the debate, because the title was chosen with some care. This is not a debate about the merits or demerits of However, in this debate I want to look things in terms particular infrastructure projects; it is a debate about of their infrastructure contribution. The Thames tunnel the relationship between those important national is a substantial infrastructure project, and although it infrastructure projects and the localities in which they will be disruptive on the one hand, it will provide a great reside. I have the honour—or shall I say pleasure?—of deal of employment on the other hand. As far as my being able to say that at least three such projects are in, constituency is concerned, it is a mixed blessing. It will or directly affect, my geographically small constituency. cause some disruption; it may, however, lead to some One is the Thames tunnel, which is a controversial amelioration, particularly at the Acton sewage tanks. project and, as a nationally significant infrastructure They are a severe health and nuisance problem to some project, is subject to the new fast-track planning process of my constituents, because of the smell and the works that was introduced by the previous Labour Government. that go on there, which may be partly alleviated by the Another is Heathrow airport—obviously it is not in my Thames tunnel. There will be works on the riverside at constituency, but it is very germane to it; indeed, it is Hammersmith in Chancellors road, which in some respects germane to the whole of west London, and to the whole are also controversial. of London and the south-east. The proposed expansion However, the Thames tunnel is not the major of Heathrow airport—the building of the third runway— infrastructure work that I want to talk about today—I could have an extreme effect on all my constituents. The say that simply by way of clarification, lest it be thought third project—the one I intend to spend most of my that I am ignoring or blind to those issues. On another time this afternoon talking about—is High Speed 2 and day, I would have a lot to say about them, but today I the development at Old Oak. want to talk about the opportunities that are created I could spend some time talking about the third when major infrastructure projects go ahead. I am a runway at Heathrow. The reason I am not going to is supporter of HS2, and I support having the main that it has been my view for the 30 years that I have been interchange for HS2 in my constituency at Old Oak—I an elected representative in west London—it is the view will say a little more about the obvious and incontrovertible of the overwhelming majority of my constituents, too—that, benefits that that will bring in a moment. much as we value Heathrow as a driver of the west However, what I really want to look at is the opportunity London economy and the jobs and services it provides, cost. When large sums of public and private money are it is possibly the worst place one could think of putting being spent on a project that has a star quality—that an airport. It is there by historical and geographical has a national prominence and is a game changer for accident. One would have to be quite mad to think national transport, as I believe HS2 is—it is easy to about significantly expanding that airport, given that simply say to the people of Hammersmith and Shepherd’s more than a third of all the residents in Europe who are Bush, “Aren’t you lucky that this fantastic transport seriously affected by noise live around Heathrow. If a interchange is coming to your area? Please don’t look a 313WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 314WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Mr Andy Slaughter] They provide highly skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled work, a lot of which is for local people in the west gift horse in the mouth.” However, one should look at London area. the risks and the detriment that major projects can The area is very developed, but that does not mean bring. One should also look at whether the advantages that Park Royal could not do with some changes. The they bring are properly shared between national gain London borough of Ealing, in which most of the industrial and local benefit, particularly given that it is local estate sits, would like to see some changes to the area, people who must put up—over 20 to 30 years, in the such as a reconfiguration of some of the businesses, but case of Old Oak—with the disruption that is caused by it is a successful and vibrant industrial area. The north developing a site on such a scale. What is planned for Acton area, which is perhaps the third and smallest part Old Oak is nothing less than a rail complex that will be of the overall development zone, is now almost completely as busy as Waterloo station and will involve not only the developed in terms of new residential and employment main interchange for HS2, but a new Crossrail station, uses. So when one uses a catch-all phrase such as new Overground stations, new links with the tube system “development area”, it contains a multitude of sins. and no doubt with road and bus services too, but that is only the beginning of it. My first reaction when I saw what the Mayor was up to in designating Park Royal together with Old Oak and Let me start by talking about what Old Oak is. Old north Acton as an opportunity area was that something Oak, which I am using as shorthand for the Old Oak was wrong, because on the one hand there is an area Common area, is an area of about 155 hectares in the that requires some development but has effectively been northern part—indeed, it is the northern part—of my fully developed for many decades, and on the other constituency. It lies north of Wormwood Scrubs, a hand there is an area that requires very substantial famous and significant open space of some uniqueness regeneration. Although we have probably moved on and a great deal of merit. I do not think it is controversial from this point, I am still of the view that it was to describe it as underused brownfield land, although it unnecessary to conflate those different areas of north-west is by no means an area that is not in use or that does not London in that way, and that had we simply concentrated provide current uses. The southern half of the site is on the 155 hectares of Old Oak, things would have been mainly railway sidings and mainly in public ownership clearer and cleaner and would not have involved the of some kind. I am told that about 50% of the entire complexity that we are now seeing in terms of regional area is in public ownership—I would have thought it is and national Government becoming involved. more than that, but let us use that figure for our present Let me be clear: this is going to be a very difficult site purposes. When one goes north of the Grand Union and project to manage. I meet regularly with HS2 Ltd, canal, one comes primarily to land that is owned by Crossrail and other prospective developers of the site, Cargiant, the largest car dealership in the world outside including the two main private contenders for north America. It occupies about 40 acres, most of development—Cargiant and the consortium involving which is owned and used by Cargiant, but some is Queen’s Park Rangers football club—and already, alarm sub-leased to a variety of small businesses. There are a bells are ringing about who is going to take charge of number of other private landowners as well, but essentially, development in the area. HS2 Ltd’s objective, which I that is the area we are talking about. quite understand, is to deliver HS2, an already very The area is almost entirely within the London borough expensive project, on time and on budget. Crossrail’s of Hammersmith and Fulham and within my constituency, objective is simply to deliver Crossrail—a project that is but it is bordered by four of the most deprived communities much further advanced, of course—and I am sure the in London, and therefore probably in the country—at same goes for London Overground and for the developers Harlesden, at north Kensington, at White City, and at who are seeking to establish residential and other east Acton. So although people might casually think employment uses. What I do not see at the moment is that this is an opportunity area in prosperous west any co-ordination or master plan, or any central London, it is in fact nothing of the kind. It is a relatively organisation that will say, “We are in charge and we will desolate industrial area, although with employment determine how these various pieces of the jigsaw fit uses, which borders areas of high unemployment and together.” The Minister may say, “That is the purpose mixed-use but not terribly good-quality housing, with of the MDC.”Well, I have already expressed my reservations people whose incomes are not the highest. about why we have a mayoral development corporation that covers an area that is four or five times larger than For clarification, although I am talking about Old the Old Oak area, but I think that would miss the point. Oak, when we come on to discussing the mayoral I will come on to explain my concerns about the development corporation, which is the mechanism by MDC in a moment, but what I mean by a central which the Mayor of London wishes to see the area organisation is an individual, or a body, that will co-ordinate developed, we will see that that includes not only the and knock heads together in terms of the various Old Oak area, but the rest of the Park Royal opportunity proposed users of the site. Let me give an example: at area. I see different figures for that, such as in one place the moment, we are looking at two separate Overground a figure of 950 hectares, but I think the more reliable stations, HS2 being in splendid isolation, and Crossrail figure we have is 868 hectares of Park Royal and an effectively doing its own thing as well. At the very least, adjacent area, north Acton. Park Royal is the largest those various components of the railway network should industrial estate in Europe: it provides some 40,000 jobs be linked up. I have seen proposals to do that by tiering in a huge variety of occupations and is strongly connected the station so that it was on several levels, which would to areas such as Heathrow. It is a manufacturing and not only be a huge space saver, but make interchange at distribution centre, and contains not only some very the station much easier. I may say a bit more about that large businesses, but a plethora of small businesses. in the context of the West London Line Group in a 315WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 316WH (Local Development) (Local Development) moment, but I use that as an example to show that while constituents and, indeed, everyone else who lives in that each individual component is trying to seek its own area of west London. That is what I want to talk about remedy and achieve its own ends, we are losing the sense now. of continuity and co-ordination. Will the MDC achieve I am assisted by the briefing note that the Mayor of that? I do not think it will. London has prepared for this debate. I do not find it In my last conversation with Department for Transport very credible. He mentions that the Old Oak Common officials, I asked who was in charge of the HS2 site. area is now intended to deliver 65,000 new jobs and They said, “We are, obviously. It is a transport project—a 25,500 new homes. That is very substantively different rail project. We are in charge of that.” I said, “Where do from the original proposals, which date back some way. you stand then in relation to the MDC and the planning I think that the first consultation document was in June power?” They replied, “Well, good point. We’re not 2013, and at that time we were talking about 19,000 new sure. We will come back to you on that.” There is homes and 90,000 jobs. confusion about who will be in the lead here. We have a I appreciate that things may have changed in all good number of competing organisations. We have the Mayor faith, but I have seen little flesh on the bones, either and his objectives, the different railway interests and the from the proposed developers or from the Mayor, as to borough councils at least, before going on to the private exactly what those jobs and homes would constitute, owners of the sites. save that the overwhelming majority of them would be As I said, despite some reservations that residents’ on the Old Oak site; a de minimis quantity would be groups have about the impact on the area, there is no within Park Royal. substantial resistance to the redevelopment of the site. The new MDC, we are told, There are many sites in west London, in my constituency— “would significantly boost the profile for this massive regeneration two are Earls Court and White City—that are comparable project and help build confidence with central Government and in terms of size and scale and certainly development the private sector, as well as establishing the single point of value and that are highly controversial as to what is contact, clear leadership and direction that partnership working being displaced and replaced on the sites. cannot always deliver.” Provided that alternative locations can be found for The note then adds that the new MDC Cargiant and the businesses on the Cargiant land—I “has been endorsed by the cross-party London Assembly”. know that that is a work in progress; Cargiant is actively seeking to relocate—I do not think that there is controversy Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Did about the development of what is essentially a very my hon. Friend hear the violins playing as he read that large piece of brownfield land, the largest that will be out? available, certainly in inner London, in the foreseeable future, in order to create jobs, homes and a better Mr Slaughter: It is more likely to generate a hollow environment. But that’s the rub: those three things and laugh in west London. I think that it is positively whether they will be achieved. misleading. I kept a close eye on this matter when the We now come to the proposed medium for development: Greater London assembly was debating it just before the mayoral development corporation. My hon. Friend Christmas. The process for an MDC is that it is proposed the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman- by the Mayor; it can be opposed by the GLA; and it Woods), when she replies from the Opposition Front then has to be ratified by Parliament through the negative Bench, will make clear what our view is on mayoral statutory instrument process, which is in train. I might development corporations, but I do not think I will give say more about that as well. anything away by saying that we are not opposed to This is what the GLA said in relation to the MDC: them in principle. They are a creature of the Localism “The governance structure remains contentious. There are Act 2011. They allow the Mayor of London—specifically concerns about the size and composition of the Board, and the the Mayor of London—to designate an area of London terms under which members will be appointed…The proposed that is in particular need of redevelopment and that he timescales for the development of planning documents are or she believes will require greater intervention than can extraordinarily rushed. The Development Infrastructure Funding be achieved at local level alone. Study…phasing plans indicate that most development is expected within twenty years, yet the OPDC”— So far, there has been only one example of that: the Olympic park. I believe—there certainly have been the Old Oak and Park Royal development corporation— rumours—that one may be designated in the London “hopes to adopt the Opportunity Area Planning Framework…within borough of Haringey, in Tottenham, but I do not know two years of its establishment…Rushing the process limits the very much about that; I think the local MPs and the scope for meaningful consultation with local communities and borough council are at least open to the idea. Therefore, local authorities…There remain too many uncertainties regarding the funding of infrastructure…The inclusion of Wormwood Scrubs the only one in play at the moment is the one proposed within the boundary of the OPDC is unjustified and unnecessary. to begin on 1 April at Old Oak and Park Royal. I think This unique open space of scrub, grassland, and woodland supporting that that is a device to take control of the planning and a wide variety of plant and wildlife is an important community regeneration powers—to take them away from the borough amenity…The protection of industrial land must be strengthened. councils and give them to the Mayor; to take them away Park Royal is Europe’s largest industrial estate and is protected as from elected authorities and, in large part, give them to Strategic Industrial Land under the London Plan because of the unelected authorities. It may be a device to try to put essential role it plays in London’s economy, particularly in the the interests of some of the landowners and other food and film industries. However, the ambition for 1,500 homes in Park Royal raises concern that some of this land will be proposed users ahead of local interests. That may be sacrificed for housing…The commitment to provision of genuinely being done quite explicitly because this is a hierarchy affordable housing must also be strengthened...We therefore call and they take precedence, but I believe that it is being on the Mayor to make clear that the OPDC Local Plan will done in a way that jeopardises the interests of my include a requirement that 50 per cent of all new homes are 317WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 318WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Mr Slaughter] some individuals are in a great hurry to get on and make decisions that will be difficult to reverse. affordable, with a 60:40 split on intermediate and at social rents...we are not satisfied that the structure and substance of this particular Frank Dobson: Will my hon. Friend clarify who will MDC, as proposed, will deliver the best possible outcome for make final planning decisions? It seems possible to me Londoners in terms of affordable housing, urban design and architecture, and protection of strategically important industrial that they will be deemed to be so strategic that they land.” devolve, if that is the right word, to the Mayor, and we will have a one-person planning committee. It will be That is some endorsement, which is what the Mayor case of one man, one vote; the Mayor will say, “I am the put it forward as. It quite concisely sums up most of my man, and this is my vote.” own concerns about the proposal. This is sleight of hand. It is a construct. There is absolutely no reason Mr Slaughter: That is exactly the point I was about to why the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, in make about the process as envisaged. I dealt to some partnership with the GLA, could not have managed extent with the process thus far, which I have described this regeneration, as it has with Kensington and Chelsea as a political fix. The idea has been to create the in relation to Earls Court and with White City. Those artificial construct of the Park Royal and Old Oak are comparable sites. Earls Court/West Ken is a £12 billion development area, and to say, “That looks so big that development now. The White City development will we cannot possibly manage it without an MDC, so let’s provide 6,000 or 7,000 new homes on prime sites. Imperial invent an MDC and get it through the GLA.” college is the main developer there. There are similar areas where borough councils have been able to do that. There is nothing that the GLA can do about that, because a two-thirds majority of the GLA is required to The fact is that there is a fully working partnership prevent it from happening. There are nine Conservative and full co-operation between the three boroughs. For members, all of whom were present at the vote, so it some reason, Kensington has decided to opt out of it, would have been impossible to defeat the decision. That and that, apparently, is acceptable to the Mayor, but puts another interesting gloss on the idea that the Brent, Ealing and Hammersmith are working extremely decision was endorsed, because it was a one-party closely together on this. They have the local knowledge, endorsement. All the other parties on the GLA have the expertise and the legitimacy when it comes to severe reservations about the process. democratically representing local interests. Other colleagues and I may well pray against the The Mayor’s briefing goes on to say: statutory instrument but, because it is subject to the “As a functional body of the Mayor of London, the OPDC negative procedure, doing so will not get us terribly far. will be responsible for planning and driving the regeneration of It appears, therefore, as though the MDC will come Old Oak and Park Royal on his behalf. It will be the Local into being in all its glory on 1 April, entirely at the Planning Authority for the area, with an overarching role to behest of the Mayor—the “one person” to whom my capture and maximise the benefits brought by the HS2 / Crossrail”. right hon. Friend has referred—and there will be a mad The essence of the MDC is that the OPDC will be both rush to try to tie it up, in a way that will be injurious to the planning and the regeneration body. That was the my constituents, over the next year before the mayoral case with the predecessor to this process in London’s elections. Who will do the tying up? There are two docklands, and it was the case with the Olympic park, bodies, one of which is the board, which will be in but I submit that that should not be the norm in overall charge and in charge of the regeneration process. relation to redevelopment. Local authorities have enough The boroughs have said, quite reasonably, that the trouble creating Chinese walls between their regeneration board should contain a majority of democratically and planning functions as it is, and they often fail to do elected representatives and/or local representatives, or so. If a powerful political voice drives a local authority that there should at least be parity between them and to the exclusion of the planning function, that is very other representatives. Is that the case? No, it is not. dangerous, because planning is supposed to be a quasi- Three of the 15 board members will be elected judicial function. Although there is a separate planning representatives, and five of the 15—including those committee, an MDC explicitly contains those two aspects, three elected representatives, one from each of the and planning is seen as a function of regeneration. constituent boroughs—will have some local connection. Of course, we all want effective regeneration, and we The other 10 will look after the interests of the want it to happen as quickly as possible. However, Mayor, businesses and railway enterprises and will be: nobody is suggesting that the redevelopment is anything the chair of the board; a representative of the GLA; a other than a 20 to 30-year project, so why, as the GLA representative of Transport for London; a representative has pointed out, will most of the decision making be of the Department for Transport; a representative from forced through in the first two years? Why has an High Speed 2; a representative of Network Rail; the obvious redevelopment area been lumped in with areas chair of the planning committee—I see a conflict of next door that are in no way similar in their redevelopment interest there—a regeneration expert; an education expert; needs? It is simply a political fix. It is simply a way of and an independent business representative. They will telling three Labour-controlled boroughs—two of which have a two-thirds majority over the local business have been Labour controlled for some time, and one of community, the local residential community and the which, my own, is a more recent addition—which have three elected representatives. That is how all the decisions their own clear agenda based on the mandate of their will be taken. I can guess how the hands will go up and residents, what should happen. how the votes will go, even now. We know that the current Mayor of London will not On the planning committee, there will be a councillor be in office in a year’s time, and I hope that we will have from each of the representative boroughs, and the boroughs an administration of a different stripe. It appears that will have responsibility for consequential and minor 319WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 320WH (Local Development) (Local Development) planning, but all major applications in relation to the close access to their homes for years. The Wells House site will be the remit of the planning committee. Yes, road and Midland terrace areas, which are just outside there will be three elected representatives on the committee, my constituency and which I had the honour of representing but there will also be three other stakeholder in years gone by, will be particularly affected. I will representatives—which do not, as far as I can see, discuss the threat to the much valued and loved open include any local representatives—and the chair of the space of Wormwood Scrubs in a moment. board, the appointment of whom will be in the gift of We may be some way from discussing the method of the mayor. At best, there is a built-in majority of four to working on the area, but how will so much development three, and presumably the Mayor will have a casting take place with such an inadequate road system? We vote to make sure that any planning decisions are made have the canal to take spoil and other material away, but at his behest. I do not call that localism, and I do not Old Oak Common lane and Scrubs lane are narrow call it democracy. roads in fairly poor condition, so the idea that they will The powers of the OPDC will include the acquisition be the main highways for the works on the sites over a of land including by compulsory purchase and overriding number of years fills me with dread. The Minister third-party rights in the land. The OPDC will perform might say that these are early days to be considering the the functions of the local planning authority for the consequences, but it would give residents more confidence whole area. I have absolutely no doubt that the intention if they thought that they will be talking to local is to marginalise the meddling local residents and politicians representative bodies that they can access and over and keep them out of the way, so that the adults—the which they might have some influence, rather than serious people who want to get on with the development— remote bureaucrats at city hall or, even worse, the can have a free hand. developers themselves being in the driving seat on the relevant committees. I am afraid that everything we That is completely unacceptable in this day and age, have seen so far in relation to HS2, which is at a for a number of reasons. Some of those reasons are somewhat more advanced stage—my right hon. Friend technical. Let us assume that that is a good way to the Member for Holborn and St Pancras will have organise things, and that the development goes ahead at something to say about that—does not give us any the behest of the Mayor and his client committees. The confidence. fact remains that the boroughs, particularly Hammersmith and Fulham, will have to pick up the bill for the I am a member of the “fair deal for London” alliance, consequences. The borough will have no say in the which is administered by Camden council as one of the setting of the infrastructure levy or the prioritisation of main victims of HS2. Compared with what has been infrastructure, and it will have no say on the major offered to rural parts of the country, which, coincidentally, items of infrastructure that go into the site. When the often happen to have influential Conservative MPs who site is complete, however, the infrastructure will all be in are lobbying for them, what is being offered to London the borough, and the borough will have to cope with the is nugatory. Five compensation packages were announced logistics and the costs of the development. by Ministers last month; all are available to HS2-affected residents in rural areas, whereas just two apply to urban If the development contains affordable housing, will residents. Given that the effect is more intense in urban the borough have nomination rights to that housing? areas, where there are often works that affect larger Have the revenue implications for the borough been numbers of people, that are closer to homes and that considered? Will the borough even be allowed to be are in areas that already suffer much environmental involved in the interview process for those who will be stress, I cannot for the life of me see why London taking the decisions? It strikes me as something out of residents should suffer more and get less compensation the 19th century. The borough is essentially being told, for HS2 other than through political choice. As Camden “You will have what you are given, and you will be council says in its brief, one would expect HS2 to set a grateful for it.” Whatever is left—whether it is, as I “gold standard” for community engagement, fair suspect it will be under the current plans, completely compensation and sensitivity to local plans. The evidence disorganised and done in a ramshackle “gold rush” so far is exactly the opposite, which is why I share the fashion, with a station here and a station there, a block concerns of my constituents and those of my right hon. of flats here and a block of flats there, or whether it is Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras. done in a properly organised fashion—the consequence when the MDC is dissolved and everyone has gone As for the consultees, there are expert bodies that away will be that the boroughs have to pick up the tab have local and professional knowledge of how the site is and that the local residents have to live with it, yet they to be developed. The West London Line Group, which have no say on what is happening. has also kindly provided me with a brief, has ceaselessly offered proposals to the Department for Transport, Equally, a large number of residents from around the HS2, London Overground and the Mayor’s Office. Unlike sites have written to me during my preparation for this the West London Line Group, I am not an expert, but debate. Some of those residents are not my constituents. the proposal seems to me to be entirely sensible and I am pleased to say that large numbers of my residents constructive on how HS2 would configure with the rest will not be directly affected by noise and pollution, but of the railway network at Old Oak. The proposal contains constituents in Acton, East Acton and College Park, three main points. First, that the HS2 legislation should and some constituents in Brent—I am pleased to see allow four way-stations in the south midlands and members of the public and, indeed, councillors attending Buckinghamshire. Secondly, that the Old Oak Common this debate—have written to me to confirm that they interchange should be built with enough space and have no say in what is happening. They are worried vision to connect efficiently with local lines, for the about the lack of compensation proposed in the HS2 maximum benefit of passengers and regeneration areas plan, and they are worried that the development will along all the lines; should provide for unforecasted 321WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 322WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Mr Slaughter] Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a powerful case on behalf of passenger demand growth on connected services; should his constituents. Have local residents been involved in reduce the potentially overwhelming pressure on the any way in drawing up a master plan, including Euston area and its tube stations; and should secure a neighbourhood plans, for the area concerned? new West London line station at Westway Circus for the transport and regeneration needs of the North Kensington, Mr Slaughter: No. Indeed, there was some resistance White City and Earls Court opportunity areas and in the previous Conservative council even to granting Imperial college west. neighbourhood plan status for residents in the adjacent The proposal’s third point is that it should be possible area. I will come in a moment to what residents are to link HS2 and HS1 via the West London line at doing, but they have hit a brick wall in dealing with the Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Merstham, Gatwick, Mayor’s office thus far. Tonbridge and Ashford International to connect the UK and international high-speed rail networks and Frank Dobson: My hon. Friend referred to Canary expand HS2’s catchment by another 64% by allowing Wharf. It is sometimes proclaimed that Canary Wharf access to HS2 from all of southern England between produced about 20,000 white-collar jobs in the area, but Ramsgate and Exeter with a single change at one of the what is seldom mentioned is that 20,000 blue-collar jobs above hubs. Given the concerns about Euston’s capacity disappeared at approximately the same time, and that to handle crowds following the introduction of HS2 while the marble halls of the office blocks were being phase 1, the West London Line Group also proposes a constructed, very little was being done to improve the variety of changes to the tube network. I will not quality of housing on the immediately neighbouring describe those changes in detail now, but I am happy to Barkantine estate. send the brief to the Minister or to his ministerial colleagues. Mr Slaughter: My right hon. Friend, as always, makes his point succinctly and accurately. That is exactly our Those proposals sensibly describe how the impact of fear for this development. HS2’s arrival in west London may be mitigated. I have worked with the group for some 20 years, and I am I do not want to sound like a Luddite; I do not want extraordinarily impressed by its detailed and professional to sound as though we are against redevelopment; I do knowledge of how the railway system works in west not want to sound as though I am against white-collar London. However, not only does the group find it jobs; but given the Government’s allowance for employment difficult even to get meetings and access, but when uses to be changed to residential units—we saw the consultation documents are produced, as they were for Greater London Assembly’s concerns about what might the Overground proposals, the group’s sensible alternatives happen to Park Royal—and given the fact that land are studiously ignored, which is happening time and values will be pushed up very substantially, I wonder again. Where people are trying to make constructive whether the manufacturing, distribution and retail proposals for how the configuration of transport services businesses and the small family firms and start-ups that might work in this area, it is always a question of the are thriving and making Park Royal such a success as Government or the railway companies knowing best to an industrial and employment area will be able to the exclusion of not only local residents but other survive, and what will be done to ensure that they do. I competing railway interests in the area. The thought of see nothing at all being done. what a mishmash this will end up being fills me with Although I said that we have had plans going back to dread. June 2013, and even some suggestions before that about how the area might be developed, it burst upon the I have three main concerns. I do not need to say much world on 26 November 2013 that the about jobs. I hope jobs will be created on the site, but I hope the jobs will be accessible to local people, which “Crossrail and HS2 superhub will bring £6 billion boost to has not been my experience of such developments. north-west London”, When Westfield came to west London, providing a in a planted story on the front page of the London variety of retail and other jobs, very few of those jobs Evening Standard, which came with one of those wonderful went locally; most of the major retailers imported their architect’s designs. The first thing that caught my eye staff from elsewhere. Westfield two is being constructed was the railway line cutting across Wormwood Scrubs. I and many other employment developments are happening hope that we have now defeated that prospect, but it throughout the borough, and the new Labour council was certainly not the most propitious start to learning in Hammersmith is trying to ensure that for further about the development. developments young people who are long-term That puff article was where the development was first unemployed—a particular problem in the Shepherd’s described as “mini-Manhattan” I do not particularly Bush area—are given priority. blame the journalist who was fed these lines; I think In the Mayor of London’s vision for his “mini- that Boris had decided that “Canary Wharf of the Manhattan”, I do not see much that will be open to my west” was not grand enough, so it had to be Manhattan constituents or those from Acton, Harlesden or North that he would build instead, with rows of skyscrapers Kensington. Given the Qatari sovereign wealth fund’s shown teetering over the edge of Wormwood Scrubs in interest in investing in the area—I have seen the interesting the rather surreal representation that accompanied the plans and the model visualisations—it is going to bear article. Maybe we have recoiled slightly from that hyperbole, something of a resemblance to the juxtaposition of but not by much. Canary Wharf and Tower Hamlets, which is great for I have nothing bad to say about either of the competing international finance and not so good for the poorer developers. Queens Park Rangers and Cargiant have residents of London. both set up their stalls in terms of wishing to be the 323WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 324WH (Local Development) (Local Development) preferred developer for part or all of the site. It appeared waited more than 10 years for social housing in at one stage that the Mayor favoured QPR, but he Hammersmith. If just the proportion that local plans might favour Cargiant now—I do not know. All I would say should be built were built on that site alone—never say is that my previous experience of dealing with the mind the other sites—it would go a long way toward Mayor’s office on major developments has been entirely resolving the issue. Not only would it be a template for depressing. It always puts the cart before the horse: we what the Mayor would like to do in Tottenham or other always have the developer’s proposal before the master deprived areas into which he sees mayoral development plan. The developer will say, “This is what I would like corporations going, but, in itself, it could solve a great to do with the site. Would you like to write a planning deal of the chronic employment and housing problems policy to go with it?” That is certainly what has happened in that part of London. That is what I meant when I at Earl’s Court, and to a large extent White City as well. was talking at the beginning about the opportunity That is a disgraceful way for a public authority to costs of developments such as this. behave. It should both be democratically accountable Just south of the area is White City estate, which is and, for reasons of probity, ensure that what is set out is about 2,000 units of social housing. It was built on land sustainable development that delivers not just on the compulsorily purchased in the 1930s to provide decent- profitable elements of the scheme but in schools, hospitals quality, good-standard accommodation with good space and roads. It must be viable going forward and 100 or for poorer residents of west London. If we could do 200 years into the future. This is trite; this is how that by compulsory purchase in the 1930s, why in the London has developed over the years. Why are we 21st century are we not ambitious enough to try to suddenly in thrall to developers and their profits, and provide the affordable homes that families need, especially entirely reliant on them in that way? when most of this land that I am talking about is public Nowhere is that clearer than in housing. I quoted land? earlier from the Mayor of London’s brief. There is nothing about housing in there, yet the single most It is a scandal that people are living in severely urgent and chronic need in London is to resolve the overcrowded, damp and unsanitary conditions in my housing crisis. It does not matter whether it is someone constituency, in surrounding constituencies and, indeed, who has been on a council house waiting list for 10 years, in most constituencies in London at the moment; that someone in substandard private rented accommodation, people are homeless; that people are living under threat someone who is part of generation rent and spending of eviction; and that, as a result of Government policies 80% of their salary renting not terribly good on benefit capping, capping of local housing allowance accommodation, or a couple waiting to start a family and the bedroom tax, people are increasingly being and thinking that they might have to move out of forced to move out of their local areas. London to do so; previous Governments of all stripes As a consequence, we see family break-up and people would have thought that they had an obligation to being moved away from their schools and jobs, when provide housing either directly or through local authorities’ the opportunity exists to provide large numbers— housing associations, or to enable the building of decent- thousands—of units of affordable housing on brownfield quality affordable housing to suit all those markets. sites such as the one I am discussing. That is the biggest Where is that in any of these proposals? scandal of this development as it is proposed. I firmly I think I heard Sir Edward Lister, the deputy Mayor believe that, because that is the major ambition of the for planning, say, “We anticipate up to 30% affordable three councils, it is one of the key reasons why the housing on this site.” That would not be sufficient. The Mayor and his cronies do not wish to see this piece of demand from the GLA is for at least 50%, and for land being made subject to local jurisdiction. 60% of that to be social housing for rent. That is a more realistic configuration in my view. Even if that were Let me deal with the issue of Wormwood Scrubs. right, my previous experience gives me no confidence Why is Wormwood Scrubs in the MDC area? that any of that 30%, or whatever figure is finally Originally, the land immediately south of the MDC decided on, would be genuinely affordable. Every scheme area, which includes Hammersmith hospital, Wormwood in Hammersmith that the Mayor has had his sticky Scrubs prison and other places, was all included, but fingers on has resulted either in zero affordable housing those other places have now been excluded as part of a or a small quantity of housing that is affordable only to revision of the original plan. Nevertheless, why people who are very rich. As I often say of discount sale include a piece of wild open space that is fully properties at 80% of market value, the people who can protected by legislation and currently sustainable, as afford a £1.6 million new-build flat on the riverside at well as being much loved by the local residents who use Hammersmith are not much different from the people it, in this development area? That question needs to be who can afford a £2 million one. In the Earl’s Court answered. area, the disgraceful destruction of the exhibition centres There was a consultation in relation to the setting-up is going on: iconic buildings are being torn down, of the MDC, as is required. The original consultation despite this country’s chronic lack of exhibition space, on the merits of the scheme as a whole produced to build 1,300 luxury homes on the site, with no affordable results. The Mayor portrayed them as being marginally units at all. Nothing that the Mayor of London has in favour of the MDC. Here are the actual figures: done in the entire period in which he has been engaged 95 respondents in overall support; 43 in overall support in the opportunity areas in west London fills me with but raising specific questions or recommending some anything other than scepticism that we will have a single changes; 135 objecting to the proposal; and 35 undecided. unit of affordable housing. To me, those results are a pretty clear indication that the That is a disgrace. Until it was abolished by the majority are either opposed to the proposals or sceptical previous Conservative council, there were more than about them, and yet they were portrayed as people 10,000 people on the waiting list, some of whom had being in favour of them. 325WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 326WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Mr Slaughter] see that happening all the time. Developments go around much smaller pieces of open space and when the planners Even if there is any doubt about that original ask, “Well, where is your amenity space, apart from consultation, when there was a further specific consultation your two-foot by two-foot balcony?”, the developers on the amendment to see whether the changes around say, “Well, it’s there. It’s Ravenscourt park,” or, “It’s Wormwood Scrubs should be implemented, the results Bishops park,”or one of the other parks in Hammersmith. of the 247 responses were: four in overall support; three Open space is precious in inner London; there is little in overall support but raising some specific questions; enough of it as it is. Where there are new developments, and 228 specifically objecting to the continued inclusion they should provide their own open space, both for their of Wormwood Scrubs within the proposed development own residents and for public communal use. Yet we face area. Yet the Scrubs is still being included in the development the prospect in our area of things being done simply to in exactly the way it was originally. make money—simply building the skyscrapers and the I hope that we have defeated the proposal to build on buy-to-leave flats that will undoubtedly be the feature the Scrubs itself. That was originally an option, as with of this development, as they are everywhere else in the Overground development, which I think is just an Earls Court, White City, Shepherds Bush market and outrage. Although we have not yet had that decision on every other area, including all along the riverside, where the Overground development from the Mayor, I hope the Mayor and the previous Conservative council chose that that option will be ruled out. Although I do not to develop. think it is particularly good, I hope that the option that This scandal involves building blocks of flats that results in two stations some distance apart and not dominate the area, shut out the light and ruin the infringing on the Scrubs will be chosen—it is called environment for local residents, without having any option C—and that we will not have a viaduct going socially useful function themselves: they are safe-deposit over the Scrubs itself. flats for Russian, Chinese or Malaysian investors, who However, the Mayor still says that improvements to simply buy them up and let them out on short-term lets, the Scrubs as a result of including it in the MDC area or use them once or twice a year, but other than that could relate to biodiversity and accessibility from the leave them empty because they are simply there to surrounding area. That starts alarm bells ringing. The dump money. original proposal was that there would be wetlands on the Scrubs. That may sound very nice—we have the Frank Dobson: Is it not the case that, in effect, the wetlands at Barnes, of course, which are very popular. commitments for the planning of London since the However, it misses the entire point that Save Our Scrubs second world war involved a great bargain with Londoners? and other organisations have made about what Wormwood That bargain was: “We will have more of you living in Scrubs represents. the air, in high-rise blocks, but in exchange for that we Wormwood Scrubs is not a commercialised or manicured will provide more compensatory open space.” Any new open space; it is not Kensington gardens and it is not high-rise that is not providing compensatory open space the wetlands at Barnes. It is Wormwood Scrubs, and it is breaking that social contract with Londoners. performs a different role from that of a town park or a recreational open space. It is 60 hectares of scrub, grass and woodland, which supports a wide variety of plant Mr Slaughter: Again, my right hon. Friend puts it life and wildlife. It provides pitches for football and more eloquently than I possibly could. other sports, and adjacent to it is the Linford Christie There are different views on high-rise living. The stadium. It also has the Wormwood Scrubs Pony Centre, previous Mayor was a fan of it and I have an open mind which was built by Anneka Rice and which is used by on the issue. There are some fantastic high-rise buildings disabled children. There are also two separate play in London and other cities. A lot of people would prefer areas for children: one for under-fives; the other for five to live nearer the ground. There has been some rethinking to 13-year-olds. It is regularly used by dog walkers, of the 1960s and ’70s architecture, and we have done botanists, bird watchers, kite flyers, kite-boarders and some of that redevelopment in Hammersmith ourselves. model aircraft flyers. Certain types of residents, particularly families and I do not know whether the Minister or shadow young children, prefer houses with gardens. Minister have visited the Scrubs, or are familiar with it, That is the obscenity of the Earl’s Court development, but it is literally a breath of fresh air for inner London. where 750 good quality low-rise councils flats—rented, It is a place where people feel completely removed from leasehold and, now, some freehold properties—are to the world around them, and which genuinely feels almost be demolished. A couple of thousand long-term residents, like a piece of open moorland or park. However, it also many of them elderly people who have lived in those has areas of scientific interest and wildlife. We do not homes for 50 years, are being pushed out and the place want that to change, or the Scrubs to become an adjunct is going through a period of up to 20 years’ development, to the development planned for the area north of it, in simply so that a developer can make money building the so-called “sensitive enhancement” to the Scrubs. We high-rise flats on the site, but not, frankly, high-rise flats want the area to be left as it is, and managed by the local that any normal person, on a normal income, would people, the local council and the charitable trust. everbeabletoafford. Of course, the reason why we are suspicious about Let me just finish what I was saying about the Scrubs. this process is that the more that the Scrubs can be Two or three things need to be clarified. First, the portrayed as a recreational facility for the “mini-Manhattan” Scrubs needs to be removed from the development area. that the Mayor wishes to build in the area, the less by Perhaps, under a future Mayor, we can look at the way of open space and recreational facilities he will whole ambit of the development area and try to disaggregate have to provide within the development area itself. We Park Royal from Old Oak. We need a tsar, whether it is 327WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 328WH (Local Development) (Local Development) Lord Adonis or whoever—somebody who has both the ignored. That is the problem. Will the Government passion and the understanding to take forward complex follow through on their own rhetoric about neighbourhood schemes. planning, localism and ensuring that people who have a Of course, I want HS2 to succeed. I am delighted community interest in the area, but also a pecuniary that, as a consequence of HS2 coming to my constituency, interest, can continue to have the quiet enjoyments of I will also get Crossrail there, and as a consequence of their home and to live and thrive in the area? That is that I will get Overground stations. I know that I am what is at risk under the current proposals. At the very pointing out the negatives. That is the purpose of this least we need to reconfigure the area of the MDC and debate. There is not much point my talking about all the we need a new process. We need a new board structure; good things that are happening: they speak for themselves. we need to make it more legitimate and more democratic; HS2 is controversial because of its cost. It will be and we need to involve residents more and listen to controversial in this location for the people I have them. We need a neighbourhood planning role in that referenced who are worried either about their lives way. If that is done, I do not see the problem. being disrupted or about not getting sufficient The other logistical problems of co-ordination, which compensation. I will fight hard for them and I am sure I have talked about, are resolvable with good will. This that the other west London MPs will do so as well. does not have to be party political; it does not even have I do support the project. It is essential nationally and to be that difficult a problem to solve. Ulterior motives will produce regeneration and unlock this site—previously and ideology dictate that any large development now impossible because of the poor transport links—and going on in central London and high-value areas of will make that transport interchange one of the biggest London has to be of this uniform nature: “How can in the UK. It will also generate jobs and the ability to you sweat the asset?” “How can you extract the maximum have new homes in the area. However, why should we be amount for whichever development company it is?”, told, “Well, there you are; that’s your lot. You now put whether it is the Qataris or other developers in the end; up with whatever we decide that we will put on that site. I do not know. And we will put on that site something which is That is not the world I want to live in, and that is not unsustainable, which alienates the existing local community what my constituents want from this development. How and drives it out by pushing up land values and prices terrible that this fantastic opportunity is now something to a level where people on ordinary incomes can’t afford that people are dreading, because of the disruption it them, and which pushes out local business”? will cause to their lives and the fundamental changes for the worse that they think it will make to the area. This It is not beyond the wit of Government at central, should be a cause for celebration and an opportunity to local or regional level to regenerate an area this size in deliver the homes and the jobs, and the environment, London in a way that is beneficial to Londoners and that Londoners need and deserve. That is not what is achieves a profit for developers, but not an excess happening at the moment, and that is why I have asked profit, and achieves the strategic transport links that we for this debate today. all want to see, but not at the expense of ordinary residents of west London, who will not just not reap the I make no apology for going on at some length, benefits of this project, but will reap its disbenefits. The because there is a lot to say. I believe that lessons should project will make people’s lives miserable while the be learned from this development, which is, as I said, construction continues; it will be difficult to sustain; it only the second MDC. London boroughs and MPs will ruin their local environment; and it will possibly should study what is happening in Old Oak and learn weaken their opportunity to have decent housing and the lessons there. The Government should learn those decent jobs. That is the opposite of what regeneration lessons too and think again about ratifying what is should do. effectively a folie de grandeur of the Mayor. I think probably all Governments have got out of the Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The 78 minutes habit of intervening in and managing projects like this. seem to have slipped by, as we have all been engrossed in That does not mean that they should micro-manage or the details of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. that the detail should not be left to the private sector, local authorities and others. However, with the creation 2.49 pm of the MDC, we are seeing a construct designed to Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I am exclude exactly those people who should be in the pleased to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. driving seat: the local residents and residents’ associations. Let me start by presenting the apologies of the right They were all consulted. There are some excellent residents’ hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan)— associations in this area. There are now some excellent who is your hon. Friend, Mr Hollobone, and also my co-ordinating groups. For example, the London Tenants friend—who wished to be here but is otherwise engaged Federation and the Grand Union Alliance have pulled meeting representatives of the European Commission together many local residents’ associations, including in Brussels to discuss the environmental shortcomings Island Triangle Residents’ Association, College Park of High Speed 2. I am sure she is doing a good job Residents’ Association, and associations representing there. Old Oak, Wells House road, the Wellesley estate. Few localities face bigger impacts from any infrastructure I have worked with all those groups extensively over project than the Euston-Primrose Hill part of my the years, either in my current incarnation or previously constituency faces from HS2. To make some simple as the MP for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush. They points, the homes of 500 people will have to be demolished are sensible people who have detailed knowledge of the and the homes of more than 5,000 other people will be local topography and are very well able to represent the exposed to living next to and overlooking a demolition, thousands of people who are going to be directly affected. engineering and building site for more than a decade Yes, they were consulted, but their views have been and possibly, depending on the final proposals, for as 329WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 330WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Frank Dobson] I can do nothing better than note the acceptance of that by the originator of the HS2 scheme, Lord Adonis. many as two decades. Those living in the area have been In autumn last year, he wrote that by getting off at Old suffering from what we might call psychological blight. Oak Common, commuters could get into the City and It is five years since the hare-brained scheme was first to Heathrow announced, and it is no nearer any firm, implementable “in a fraction of the time and with far less congestion than proposals than it was at the start. travelling via Euston/King’s Cross/St Pancras and the Victoria, I must confess that my original objections were wholly Northern and Circle lines”. parochial. It is my job, as it is of any individual MP, to If the main proponent of HS2 recognises that Old Oak try to represent the interests of those who live in my Common would be a better place to get off, I do not area. Sometimes, an MP may say, “I think there are need to say much more about it. I and other people in national considerations that outweigh some local interests,” my area, including railway experts, have been saying it and I have done that on other issues. In this case, for a long time, and we have been mocked most of the however, the more I have looked at HS2, the more time, but no evidence has been produced to knock stupid it gets. If the HS2 proposal were to go through, down the case we are making, and we were gratified to those who currently use Euston as their London note that Lord Adonis agrees with us. terminus—those who come in on the west coast main The other virtue of having the station at Old Oak line or on local trains—would have their use of Euston Common is that it could be purpose-built. It could, intermittently interrupted for more than a decade. from the start and without having to bodge around There are those who say, “The west coast main line is existing lines and all that sort of thing, be designed to a bit unreliable at present,” but they ain’t seen nothing integrate properly the Crossrail, HS2 and London yet. It will undoubtedly get considerably worse, because underground lines. For the first time in London’s history, major engineering changes are proposed to the Victorian we would have a purpose-built integration of services. engineering works of one of the world’s greatest engineers, Up to now, any new services in London getting anywhere Robert Stevenson. I do not see anyone around who near the main termini have always been bodged—a compares with him. For instance, there has been talk of tunnel has been pushed through here and a tunnel excavating and putting the High Speed 2 line 3 metres pushed through there to try to cope with the existing lower than the existing track. That line is next to a stuff getting in the way. Old Oak Common would be retaining wall in the major cutting from Primrose Hill infinitely superior in every sense. to Euston, and those behind HS2 said they would not High Speed 2 acknowledges that Euston cannot cope need to replace it. Anyone with a grain of sense understood and that, if the scheme went through and Euston was that digging 3 metres below a Victorian wall would the main station in London for HS2 and it worked, and mean that it would have to be replaced, and that is now if people actually caught it and got on and off the accepted. trains, the station would be so overcrowded that it could There will be major disruption, but the fundamental not cope. To allow it to cope, they are now saying that problem, which takes me on to matters related to the Crossrail 2 will be necessary at an additional cost—a points that my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith mere bagatelle in terms of HS2—of £20 billion. That is (Mr Slaughter) made, is that Euston is not a good on top of the £50 billion they are already talking about. location for the mainline station for High Speed 2. So Crossrail 2 will be required to get passengers away, Euston’s onward connections are very poor. It has no but even then Euston will not be on Crossrail 1 and will connection to Crossrail or the Heathrow Express, and it not be connected to Heathrow. Nor will there be any has poor connections to the tube system that presently connection between High Speed 2 and the channel serves it. There would be far more sense in having a tunnel link, known as High Speed 1. All the propositions station at Old Oak Common, and that is what the that were originally put forward in favour of HS2 turn people behind HS2 proposed. They clearly originally out to be rubbish. envisaged it as a parkway station that would have the As my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith advantage of connecting with Crossrail and the Heathrow pointed out, if properly organised and planned, Old Express. Oak Common provides a wonderful opportunity for a big new main London HS2 station. It can be a catalyst for a huge amount of good quality redevelopment, [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] providing jobs, housing and a lot of genuine local amenities for people in the area. Without HS2, the Surveys that are utterly unchallenged by the Department chances are that any redevelopment of Old Oak Common for Transport and High Speed 2 show that for many will be, shall we say, held back. places in London, people would do far better getting off at a parkway station at Old Oak Common, instead of It is now five years since HS2 was proposed. A Bill on coming into Euston. The first five Crossrail stations to the scheme had its Second Reading in the House of the east of an Old Oak Common station are not exactly Commons, but the proposals that it contained relating in obscure locations. They are Paddington, Bond Street, to my constituency have been abandoned. There was a Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon and Liverpool Street. proposal for a connection above ground between HS2 People could get to all those stations 10 minutes quicker— and the channel tunnel link. Everyone said that it was HS2 has not denied this—by getting off at Old Oak rubbish, including the Institute of Civil Engineers, and Common than by getting off at Euston. Despite the fact we were duly mocked. It was abandoned because even that Tottenham Court Road station is at one end of HS2 had to recognise that it was useless. Tottenham Court road and Euston is at the other, it Turning to what has been happening at Euston itself, would still be quicker to get to the other end of Tottenham we were told that, under the original proposal for Court road via Old Oak Common and Crossrail. Euston station, the new, magnificent super-station would 331WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 332WH (Local Development) (Local Development) cost £1.2 billion. Eight months later, they recalculated under the Labour party, has been that, whenever something that it would cost £2 billion. An increase of £100 million is done from either county hall or city hall, the interests a month is not bad. I do not know who made the of people living and working in a particular locality original estimate and how much they were paid for it, come last, and the fancy ideas from think-tanks, vested but we should have asked for our money back. The cost interests and all sorts of other people come first. went up to £2 billion, at which point the full-scale Although I do not agree with all aspects of the refurbishment and rebuilding of Euston was abandoned. redevelopment behind King’s Cross station—there should Instead, the proposal was that to save money there have been more housing and particularly more social would be a sort of elegant lean-to shed for HS2 next to housing—it was none the less the product of a lot of the existing Euston station. Even that was going to cost hard work by Camden council and, to a lesser extent, £1.4 billion. Islington council, without any great contribution of any As time has gone by, various other aspects have sort, least of all financial, from city hall. The London turned out to be rather pricier than expected, including boroughs are capable of getting together and producing this business of having to rebuild the retaining walls of joint projects that will do the job, but the problem that the great cutting, which does not come cheap. There is that poses for city hall and Whitehall is that local currently no firm proposal on the table for the councillors, by their very nature, reflect the needs of refurbishment, redevelopment and rebuilding of Euston, local people in a way no one else does. That is why my including HS2. We were promised—I think it was in hon. Friend is right to be extremely suspicious of this June—that the revised plans would be available in October. new development corporation approach to the proposed Most people thought that when they said October, they huge redevelopment involving Old Oak Common and, meant October last year. It turns out that the plans possibly, Wormwood Scrubs. That approach cannot be might be available in October this year, but there is no right. indication of what is going to be proposed or the costs, We need to look at Old Oak Common as a brilliant other than talk of the project at Euston now costing transport opportunity, but it must be developed £7 billion. Compare that with the £1.2 billion on which properly. It must be properly integrated with the delivery the original commitment was made. of other things that people in the area need, including a I believe very strongly that the opportunity provided lot of new housing and new jobs, and opportunities for at Old Oak Common should be adopted. The Department start-up businesses. The area should not be sacrificed to for Transport and HS2 have estimated the likely demand great big multinational corporates, because the only and usage for Euston, and they say that that is why it thing we can be sure about with them is that the must be Euston and we cannot have the major interchange interests of the people living around Old Oak Common at Old Oak Common, but they have never produced any will not be their main interest. Their main interest is a detailed figures showing their calculations. Even if, great big bag marked “Swag”, which they want to be as ultimately, some limited HS2 connection should come big as possible, and which they will probably take off to into Euston, common sense suggests that the best thing Liechtenstein, Luxembourg or Switzerland, or to one of to do would be to ensure that the station at Old Oak the four big British banks’ 1,649 subsidiaries located in Common is sufficiently extensive and modern, and that tax havens. it can cope with people and get them on and off HS2 and on to Crossrail and the tube system. It would be Mr Slaughter: My right hon. Friend is waxing eloquent, best to go ahead with that and then, in the light of but he is also being extremely accurate. I mentioned the experience and knowledge, rather than guesswork—up Earl’s Court development, where the partners are, on to now, everything to do with Euston is guesswork—decide the one hand, Transport for London and, on the other whether any HS2 service needs to go into Euston. hand, a Capco subsidiary company—a £2 company For that matter, from the point of view of transport registered in Jersey.Public sector organisations are actually strategy, should there be a line that goes from Old Oak in bed with tax-dodging companies, and those companies Common to an east London connection? It could be have no liability: if a development goes well, they get underground all the way, because tunnels do not cost all the lion’s share of the money; if it goes badly, the public that much—compared with stations, they are cheap. We purse has to pick up the damage. could tunnel from Old Oak Common to connect to, say, Stratford International, so that people could go from Frank Dobson: It is, admittedly, difficult for anybody the north of England or the midlands straight through respectable not to be involved with tax-dodging companies, to Paris. given that HSBC, RBS, Barclays and Lloyds are all Currently, that proposition is not available, and it is tax-dodging companies, while PricewaterhouseCoopers, not going to be available. There really must be a serious KPMG and people like that are also heavily involved in consideration of the opportunity provided by a first-rate, tax dodging and have whole office blocks devoted exclusively properly planned and executed development at Old Oak to it. It is quite difficult to get away from that. Common for HS2 and Crossrail. As my hon. Friend the I would like to make one other point, and here I plead Member for Hammersmith said, we could then go on to not socialist examples, but Winston Churchill and Adam the wholesale redevelopment of that area, particularly Smith. A bit more than 100 years ago, when he was a the brownfield site, to the benefit of local people. Liberal and a member of the great reforming Liberal Until I heard what my hon. Friend had to say, I had Government of 1906, Winston Churchill said it was a not intended to comment on the proposed structure for scandal that private property owners would benefit dealing with the major redevelopment of the part of his exclusively from the enhancement of property values area that is so crucial to three boroughs. Quite frankly, I following public investment in particular projects. He have no faith whatever in an idea run from city hall. The was in favour of a special tax on rental income in those history of everything in London, including county hall circumstances. In support of that, he quoted from 333WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 334WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Frank Dobson] “Given the capital’s acute housing crisis, the provision of high levels of affordable housing should be at the forefront of the Adam Smith’s “The Wealth of Nations”, which also MDC’s aims. To achieve that goal we strongly believe the Mayor said there should be a special tax on rises in property should include a requirement that 50 per cent of all new homes are affordable, with a 60:40 split between intermediate and social rents in such circumstances. rents. Instead he has neglected to set any targets for affordable We therefore need to look seriously at any major housing.” redevelopment, such as that proposed at Old Oak Common, Surely that is not an acceptable way to proceed. to make sure that, when billions of pounds of public There are further concerns about boundaries and, money go into it, the public get something back directly. indeed, about why Wormwood Scrubs has been included That is not happening at the moment. Crossrail has at all. There are queries about compensation. Local been a major investment by the British taxpayer—by knowledge seems not to have been listened to or taken people all over the country. About 18 months or two on board. Residents want better use of transport and years ago, the company produced a brochure to a improvements to local transport, as well as access to fanfare of trumpets—it wanted applause. In that brochure, jobs and apprenticeships. That is quite a long list of the company stated that it had asked an estate agent for issues, and we look forward to the Minister’s comments advice, and it now believed, on the basis of the information on them. it got, that the value of the property around each I want to look in more detail at the mayoral development Crossrail station was likely to go up by 25%—a wholly corporation model and question why it has been rolled gratuitous, buckshee gift from the taxpayer to the property out across London. This is the second MDC and there owners around each of those stations. may be others in the offing, and I question whether it is We need to adjust our approach to make sure that if, the most appropriate model to support redevelopment. as I hope, Old Oak Common station is properly developed, I want briefly to consider other models that might be some of the financial benefits will flow back to the available, and how we go about delivering national people who live in the area and to the councils that infrastructure. At the moment there is little connection represent them. The benefits should not go just to those between what happens in national infrastructure projects who will whizz the money all round the world with the and what happens in localities. There are other models assistance of the banks and all sorts of other peculiar available for improving the links between the two and companies. There should be some sort of tax on the ensuring that local areas’ needs are reflected in national increase in property values. infrastructure projects, and vice versa. One of the concerns already raised about MDCs is 3.17 pm whether they are underpinned by sufficient democratic accountability arrangements. The Mayor has set out Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): that the Old Oak and Park Royal MDC would have It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, three local authority representatives on the board, and Mr Sheridan. three members on the planning committee. Perhaps the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Minister can explain why that is considered acceptable, Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) on securing the debate especially as the powers given to MDCs under the and speaking so eloquently on behalf of his constituents. Localism Act 2011 are extensive and include powers I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for relating to infrastructure, regeneration, development Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) for making a and other land-related activities, acquisition of land by really interesting and captivating case for Old Oak compulsory purchase, and overriding third party rights Common to provide the major HS2-Crossrail-tube in that land, adoption of private streets, carrying on of interchange. I hope somebody somewhere who has a business by the MDC and its participation in subsidiaries say over these matters was listening to the sensible case and other companies, and giving financial assistance. he made. I will concentrate most of my remarks on the When the MDC model was proposed in the then issues raised by my hon. Friend in his excellent, forensic Localism Bill, the Government were at pains to stress dissection and examination of the key issues relating to that the model would be used only for the Olympic park the manner in which redevelopment is being undertaken site. In Committee on 8 March 2011 the hon. Member in his area. It is worth emphasising some of those for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), then the points. Under-Secretary of State responsible for planning, Clearly, my hon. Friend’s local community supports responded to concerns about the possibility of MDCs redevelopment, as indeed do he and I, but there are real being rolled out in other areas: concerns about the approach being taken to secure it. “Regarding the background as to why the power is cast as it is, That includes the mayoral development corporation’s it was made clear in evidence by Sir Simon Milton, the deputy governance arrangements, the time scales adopted and Mayor, that Mayor Johnson has no intention of going beyond the mayoral development corporation for the Olympic park.” the accountability, or rather the apparent lack of accountability, to local residents. They are also concerned He said that the only reason for not putting that in the about uneven development across the MDC area, which Bill was that it I suggest is not a good way of securing community “would have created all manner of technical and legal problems, confidence in a development. They also have queries which would prevent the timely setting up of a body”. ––[Official about the funding of infrastructure and how and when Report, Localism Public Bill Committee, 8 March 2011; c. 906.] it will be delivered. There are concerns about the balance Yet here we are a few years later; and that model is being between housing and employment land, and about whether rolled out. there will be any affordable housing. That concern is As it happens, Labour members of the Committee shared by the London Assembly Labour group planning were not convinced by the Minister’s arguments, and spokesperson, who said: my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and 335WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 336WH (Local Development) (Local Development) Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) pointed out that the legislation That is why we need the new development corporations: does not limit the scope of the Mayor, in designating an to think properly about what it means to have a new MDC, to the Olympic park: generation of garden cities, urban extensions or new “It gives the Mayor carte blanche to come forward with settlements. They should enable development based on proposals for an MDC in any area in London. I am not sure how certain key principles that already underpin the original compatible that is with the localist thrust of the Bill. There is not garden cities. There should be an obligation to have any provision for what happens if the Mayor proposes an MDC meaningful community participation, not only to undertake in an area where the local authority does not like the idea, and consultation. The corporations should consider human where a local neighbourhood forum has come into existence, and health and well-being and look at what sustainable says, ‘We do not like the idea either.’ That is unresolved and there development really means and at how they would tackle is no mechanism for it. That is a curious omission in a Bill that is supposed to have a well worked out theory of localism.”––[Official climate change. Those would be statutory purposes, Report, Localism Public Bill Committee, 8 March 2011; c. 900.] rather than policy objectives only. The Town and Country Planning Association has already issued a document to My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles update the new towns legislation. The Government South (Barbara Keeley)pointed out that the Bill gave could simply have taken that off the shelf, put it through the Mayor new powers to designate any area of land in Parliament in a lot less time than the Localism Act 2011 Greater London as a mayoral development area. She took, and had something fit for purpose. Such vehicles expressed worry that there would be should inspire community confidence in the delivery of “nothing to stop a future Mayor from establishing a new mayoral regeneration, because if communities do not like what development corporation” is happening, they are likely to object, which can slow a anywhere, and there would not be close enough process down. consideration of what the London boroughs might It is much better to get communities on board from want to do in their areas when putting the MDC the outset and to listen to what they have to say about together or drawing up plans to support regeneration. how their areas should be regenerated. Communities She pointed out that the provision could override the should be involved in the drawing up of a master plan, wishes of locally elected representatives, which should be based on neighbourhood plans that “which would not be within the spirit of the Bill.” ––[Official they have been adequately supported to carry out in Report, Localism Public Bill Committee, 8 March 2011; c. 905.] their area, so that we give communities real power over Although the Mayor has a duty to consult local authorities what happens in that area through the new town and residents in setting up and MDC, he is under no development corporations. Critically, we should also be obligation to act on their views or concerns. As we supporting communities to drive forward redevelopment made clear in 2011, that is profoundly anti-localist. in their area to suit the needs of the local community and to deliver many of the different aspects and positive My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, my outcomes for local communities that we might expect right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras from redevelopment, such as access to new jobs, better and I stress that we want redevelopment in many town transport, better housing and more affordability in the and city areas and that we support development in housing stock. London, but we must be careful about the model applied. The Minister has to explain why he is going for such a top-down model for delivering new infrastructure Frank Dobson: Given the experience in my area of the and housing when other, better models are available. privatised Royal Mail proposals for the redevelopment Perhaps in 2011 such a model might have been accepted of its brownfield site at Mount Pleasant—the views of for the Olympic park, but people then were at pains to Islington and Camden councils and all the local people point out that it would not necessarily be suitable for were overridden by a one-man decision by the Mayor of other areas. Indeed, then and now they have stressed London—most people in my area will be dubious about that it is better to use effective partnerships for regeneration, any form of arrangement that does not continue to give and that that could happen by the public and private primary powers to the locally elected representatives. sectors working together on infrastructure and housing delivery. Roberta Blackman-Woods: My right hon. Friend makes The Minister will know that Sir Michael Lyons was an excellent point. I often find myself thinking about commissioned by Labour to examine the issues and the disconnect between what the Government say about consider models that would make it possible to deliver localism and powers for local people and what happens new housing and infrastructure, and jobs to support in reality, which is that local people might be consulted that. He was asked to look at a model for use in the on plans for their areas, but are then ignored. That 21st century; as we have all said, it is not acceptable to brings the planning system into disrepute. It is important ride roughshod over the views of local people and their to get back to a planning system that is visionary, but local representatives. Sir Michael proposed new homes facilitates local people to develop plans in their area corporations and garden city development corporations. and helps them to think about what they want their He said—this is what I want to emphasise—that those neighbourhood and surrounding areas to look like in delivery models should be based on an updating of the 25 or 30 years’ time. It is not beyond us to do that. existing new towns legislation. Most serious commentators Additionally, on the need to update the legislation, on regeneration recognise that we need a vehicle to deliver many of the new towns did not always reflect the redevelopment and large-scale housing developments. highest quality in design standards, so we proposed that Such a vehicle has to bring together a number of the new homes and garden city development corporations different organisations, agencies and partnerships and should think properly about improving the quality of to include a mix of private and public sectors. It also design. That, too, can often be achieved by involving has to be the right tool for the job. local people who know what is suitable for their area 337WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 338WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Roberta Blackman-Woods] Let us take one nationally significant infrastructure project, Crossrail, as an example. We can clearly see and have a good understanding of the materials that why there is so much focus on ensuring successful should be used. That could be written into the legislation, economic outcomes for both the local area and the but I cannot see any of it in the mayoral development wider economy. Although located in London and the corporations at the moment. Perhaps something like a south-east, Crossrail is generating jobs and business design statement will appear in the plan, but I want to opportunities around the country. Europe’s biggest hear reassurances from the Minister about how that construction project, it is providing a boost to a whole plan will improve the quality of housing delivered. range of UK industries. Over the course of the project, Finally, what can we do about national infrastructure we expect at least 75,000 opportunities for businesses, delivery? Part of the powerful case put this afternoon is and 97% of the £6.5 billion in contracts let by Crossrail that we need a much better link between what happens to date has gone to contractors based in the UK; 62% of at national infrastructure level and what happens locally. that has gone to firms outside London and 58% to The Labour party, through Sir John Armitt, has come small and medium-sized businesses. up with some really good proposals for improving national This Government have made improvements to the infrastructure by having it underpinned by an independent planning regime for significant infrastructure projects. assessment of our needs, which should be carried out The bespoke regime ensures faster decisions on national through a detailed assessment that looks forward over a infrastructure projects, and gives much needed certainty 30-year period. to developers and investors. The system is working well, Whitehall Departments at the centre would therefore with a number of notable decisions taken to date, be required to set up and carry out sector infrastructure including on the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station plans, which would go to Parliament for approval. in March 2013 and on the Thames tideway tunnel in Those plans would have to be all-encompassing in what September 2014, which was mentioned earlier. Hinkley they look at, including aviation, ports, transport, science, in particular highlights how well the system is working: renewables, nuclear, strategic flood defences, resilient the planning consent was granted just 17 months after roads and rail, how we get integration, telecommunications, application, compared with the over six years it took to recycling, energy efficiency, water and waste, security of grant consent for the Sizewell B facility under the old supply—I could go on, but I hope that I am making the system. point that we need such extensive consideration. A Making decisions quickly is not the only priority, spatial element is also needed, and there needs to be a however. Local people must have the chance to influence link with what is happening locally, in particular with decisions on national infrastructure where it affects local areas proposing growth plans through new homes their area. The nationally significant infrastructure projects corporations and garden city development corporations, regime ensures that that happens, through pre-application so that the needs of the local communities speak to the public events, local authority statements on public national infrastructure and so that it can take on board consultation and formal representations during the the local plans. inspection process. To return to the example of Hinkley, We have set out a much more sensible way for the when seeking consent for the project, the developer held Minister and his mayoral colleague to undertake 37 public exhibitions and 67 stakeholder meetings, engaging development in London. Indeed, the strategy is also a with almost 6,500 consultees. The story does not end sensible one for development elsewhere in the country. I there: as the hon. Member for Hammersmith has look forward to hearing from the Minister why he highlighted, it is not only the national infrastructure should not adopt it immediately. itself that is important, but what is done around it to support it, link it to local people and ensure the maximum positive benefits for businesses and local communities. 3.39 pm The economic potential of the Old Oak and Park TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities Royal development area has been catalysed by Government and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): I thank the hon. investments in High Speed 2 and Crossrail, and is huge. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) for highlighting Current estimates from the Greater London authority such an important area of work. Infrastructure investment are that the area has the potential for 24,000 homes and is a critical building block of the Government’s long-term 55,000 jobs. Over a 30-year period, the development economic plan. I share his determination to see maximum would ensure economic regeneration worth some benefits for local people as a result of our investments. £15.5 billion to the UK economy. I am sure that everyone I have observed the hon. Gentleman in the debates we recognises that that level of investment and outcome for have had and he has never been a “glass half full” man. our country is extremely important, and we need to I have to say that I do not share his dark, bleak, seize the opportunity with both hands. depressing and negative interpretation of what is being How do we do that? Local leadership is key. The proposed and driven through. After that bleakness, the Greater London authority, working with local partners, right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank including the three London boroughs in the area, has Dobson) lifted us with his contribution. I will add a proposed a mayoral development corporation for the little light, understanding and clarity on what is being Old Oak and Park Royal area to ensure that growth proposed and the outcome being sought. Importantly, I happens in the best way for the local community. I will make sure that the democratic process behind it is welcome that move. To support delivery on the scale understood as well as the role of the residents and their required, the MDC will provide leadership for a single, confidence in a journey that, it is proposed, will last robust plan with clear direction. The MDC will bring some decades; they have a full role to play in the together transport agencies, local authorities, developers, process. landowners, local businesses and, crucially, local 339WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 340WH (Local Development) (Local Development) communities around a common goal of ensuring that the inspector will reject it. If there is not sufficient the redevelopment is a success. Rather than individual affordable housing, there is an opportunity for the developers coming forward with competing proposals inspector to reject the plan on those grounds. If a future for the area, the MDC will draw together the strategy Mayor decides that they want to put more housing into and engage developers in its delivery. That leadership is the offer, they will have the opportunity to review the crucial for success. plan and put that in. To suggest that there is no affordable My Department is working well with the Greater housing is wrong. London authority to ensure that the MDC is established The Government’s track record on delivering affordable in good time. As a result, I am pleased to say that the housing far exceeds that of the previous Labour statutory instrument required to establish the MDC has Administration. I remind Members that more council now been laid before Parliament, and the MDC will be houses have been delivered in the nearly five years of established on 1 April this year. this Administration than were delivered in the 13 years I know that the hon. Member for Hammersmith has of the Labour Administration. Tom Copley said that he raised concerns regarding the MDC. He is right to is embarrassed that Margaret Thatcher delivered more make people aware of his concerns through this debate, council houses and flats in one year than the Labour and to ensure that his constituents have had the opportunity Administration delivered in 13 years. I hear the right to challenge. Many concerns, such as those about hon. and hon. Members’ lectures and rhetoric about membership of the MDC board and its planning there being no affordable housing. They say that it is committee, are matters for local agreement. But we appalling and that we have let people down, but I know, should note that the boroughs will be represented on as a former Housing Minister, that there were 425,000 both the board and planning committee, and I am fewer affordable homes in 2010 than there were in 1997. particularly pleased that, as a result of public consultation, It is the Labour party that has failed people who want the board will also include local business and community secure homes. representatives. It is also good to see that the MDC is planning wider community engagement, including proposals Mr Slaughter: I am not going to rise to the Minister’s for a community charter to be prepared and agreed in bait, because he is getting somewhat off the subject. For collaboration with local groups, and that the Greater eight years we had a Tory council, for six we have had a London authority is ambitious about maximising affordable Tory Mayor and we have a Tory Government, and our housing provision across the site. direct local experience is that 500 council houses have been sold off, council houses have been demolished and Mr Slaughter: I have represented my own views, but I whole estates have been scheduled for demolition, all quoted extensively from all three boroughs for the area, with the active collusion of the Mayor. That is what has the residents associations, groups such as the Grand led to the suspicion of and the complete lack of confidence Union Alliance and GLA members because they all in this proposal. I am not going to get into a joust about share my concerns. All the groups that the Minister has the national figures, because I dispute what the Minister mentioned—democratically elected bodies, residents’groups says. He is asking us to trust City hall to deliver, but our and umbrella groups—have the same concerns. They local experience tells us that we should do the opposite. are all in one basket and the Mayor is in the other. Kris Hopkins: All that demonstrates is the fact that Kris Hopkins: There is a difference between our two the hon. Member for Hammersmith does not understand approaches. I am not saying that the hon. Gentleman the process. I am concerned that residents may be should not challenge things—if I were the MP for the listening to the hon. Gentleman when he says that in the area, I would as well. But I have more confidence, future affordable housing will not be delivered. The because I have been in local government—I know he local plan and localist policies are giving members of has been as well—and I have never met a group of the public and elected representatives the opportunity councillors that simply sat back and let themselves be to determine where affordable housing is built. It is not manipulated by another party. in the hands of the Mayor. The hon. Gentleman said The hon. Gentleman should have some confidence. that the previous Conservative council did not deliver. There are three authorities involved, all of which happen He has now got three Labour councils, and he seems to to be Labour-led, and I am sure that they will not sit have no confidence in their delivering. back but will make sure that there is a role played by local authorities in the delivery. The terms and conditions Frank Dobson: The best prospect for relieving the and the outcomes sought by the MDC can come about pressure on Camden’s housing was the Mount Pleasant only through negotiation between the local authorities Post Office site, but the Mayor has given full-scale and the GLA. Those negotiations have not concluded approval, using his existing powers, for what can be yet. described only as a speculative housing development. Issues such as housing and transport provision will He said that there will be some social housing, but it be determined in the local plan, which will be delivered will be at 80% of market rent. He is cracking a pretty in 18 months’ time, after the mayoral elections. My own good joke, because in that area 80% of market rent is experience with a local plan in my constituency has £30,000 per year. shown me that that is the time for residents to participate in the process and for locally elected representatives to Kris Hopkins: We need to place this issue in context. play a full role in making sure that they can shape the The right hon. Gentleman has complained about the outcomes. delivery of houses, and said that he does not like the It is not the case, as has been suggested, that the formula. However, he makes no reference to the fact Mayor will just roll forward with his own ambitions, that one of the reasons why residents in London are along with greedy developers. If the plan is not appropriate, struggling to find houses is that the Government of 341WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 342WH (Local Development) (Local Development) [Kris Hopkins] Kris Hopkins: I have heard the right hon. Gentleman pose that question several times before, but that is not whom he was part failed to deliver housing. The how the project should be interpreted. Actually, it will Mayor of London has delivered 23,000 affordable homes, benefit eight out of Britain’s 10 largest cities, linking and he is on track to deliver another 15,000 before the them together and delivering a significant economic end of the year. We asked him to deliver that, and he contribution to each of them. Journey times to London, was confident that he could do it. He is also going to and from London to other places, will be reduced, and deliver another £1.1 billion of affordable homes in the the economic opportunities will be absolutely massive. future. However, as in London, the key to success across the country will be local leadership. Local enterprise Frank Dobson: Most Londoners cannot afford partnerships will bring together elected individuals and 80% of market rents. A newly appointed consultant businesses to work with the Government, agencies and surgeon at Great Ormond Street hospital would not be other regeneration organisations. able to afford rent of £30,000 a year. If it is not It is important that we harness this opportunity. I affordable for a new consultant surgeon, who is it recognise the challenge that elected representatives in affordable for? London face, but there is a broader issue to be addressed. We are also delivering a comprehensive northern transport Kris Hopkins: There are too few houses, which has strategy that will complement High Speed 2 and set out forced up rents over a long time. It is important that we the priority corridors and areas for investment and build houses, whether by building social housing or infrastructure across the north of England, which will private rental housing, or asking councils to utilise drive economic growth and deliver the vision of the some of the £300 million-worth of resources to build northern powerhouse. It is important to recognise that council houses themselves. The Government have delivered the infrastructure investment and changes that are going what we promised on affordable housing, and our record on at this end of High Speed 2 are connected to other will be compared with the previous Government’s absolute parts of the country. failure to deliver over 13 years. A Labour elected representative has recognised with embarrassment that Mr Slaughter: Apart from his frolic on council housing, the Labour Administration failed to deliver in 13 years I appreciate the tone of the Minister’s response. The what Margaret Thatcher delivered in one. I understand purpose of the debate is to help not only to achieve the right hon. Gentleman’s concern, but he must reflect those national objectives, but to take into account local on his party’s failure before pointing the finger. considerations. Will the Minister deal with two points, which are not party political? Will he look again, as the Before I conclude, I want to pick up on some of the Save Our Scrubs organisation and many others have issues that have been raised, and to give some reassurances. asked, at Wormwood Scrubs being taken out of the The local plan will be delivered over the next 18 months, area covered? There is no logic to it being included. Will and it will set out our expectations on affordable housing. he also encourage the railway companies and Transport It will be subject to the rigorous examination that we Ministers to meet with the West London Line Group to would all expect. The MDC plans will also set out look at its innovative and detailed proposal for the important safeguards to existing assets in the area, better integration of rail in that area? Surely the Government including the Park Royal industrial area and Wormwood and Mayor keeping an open mind on both those issues Scrubs. That is key to ensuring that development happens cannot do any harm. in the right way for the local people in the area. Old Oak and Park Royal is just one example of the Kris Hopkins: In his speech, the hon. Gentleman impact national infrastructure has on local growth. By asked how all these difficult things would be led and definition, national infrastructure projects have the potential delivered. The fact that there are three council to create benefits across the country, and there are representatives, three local community representatives, examples of that along the whole length of the proposed and the rest of it is made up of independent individuals High Speed 2 route. I realise that the right hon. Member who have no financial determination or interest associated for Holborn and St Pancras has been a ferocious opponent with the planning committee is important. As far as the of that project. We both served on the High Speed Rail board is concerned, the fact that there are players there (Preparation) Bill Committee, and I completely respect who will be in charge of that particular part of that the stance that he has taken, but as a northern Member process and be at the helm, driving the outcome, is also of Parliament, I recognise that it is extremely important extremely important. The hon. Gentleman makes an that we make use of the opportunity to increase our important point, though. The negotiations between local connectivity and capacity to ensure that the whole of authorities and the GLA are continuing, and I am the country grows as a consequence of High Speed 2. certainly prepared to write a note on the observation That does not mitigate all the individual challenges that that he has raised, which is that different groups would the right hon. Gentleman has raised today and in the like to participate and understand how the process past. works. Roberta Blackman-Woods: The “benefits” to the north- Frank Dobson: The main objective of High Speed 2 is east that we anticipate from HS2, HS3 or HS4, as it to promote economic development in five cities— might be then, are likely to come in something like Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and 2035, and we have a real need for infrastructure investment Manchester—but if the £50 billion were broken up into now that is not being delivered. five nuggets of £10 billion and offered to each of those cities to promote economic development, does the Minister Kris Hopkins: I am sorry to contradict the hon. Lady, think that the first thing they would do is to club but only a few days ago, the Chancellor announced together to buy a railway? massive investment in the east coast line for new stock 343WH National Infrastructure Projects 12 FEBRUARY 2015 National Infrastructure Projects 344WH (Local Development) (Local Development) to be delivered as soon as possible. She is right that an Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Mr Slaughter, you have infrastructure development the size of High Speed 2 or two minutes to wind up the debate. High Speed 3 is a generational process. As far as the east coast line is concerned, we already have the 4.6 pm infrastructure there, and there is massive investment in transport through this Government. Mr Slaughter: I am most grateful for that, Mr Sheridan, and I will limit myself to those two minutes. Before I move on to the issue of localism, let me reiterate a point, so people can hear it in the Minister’s I thank the other three Members who took part in voice, because I know that some out there will be the debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn concerned about some interpretations that were given and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) and I disagree on the earlier. Wormwood Scrubs is protected by the trust. advisability of HS2, but I cannot disagree with very Nothing will happen unless the trust agrees to that much that he has said today, because he has put so intervention, or whatever it is—and I have no idea that eloquently the arguments on behalf of his constituents there is to be any intervention. However, it is important and is doing so as strongly now as he did 35 years ago, that the trust is part of the process; that they are there when he first arrived in the House. I thank my hon. inside, driving that. There is suspicion and the idea that Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta there is some ulterior motive associated with this, but Blackman-Woods),who drew the argument to our concerns the trust is in control and the trust—not any other more generally on localism and the use of MDCs. I person outside that—will make the determination. thank the Minister for his comments and for agreeing to refer onward the specific points that I made in relation The hon. Lady talked about localism and about a to the Scrubs and the West London Line Group. mechanism. I am sorry to be critical in response to the points she made, but I worked in and represented a Four points were clearly not dealt with. We will have large metropolitan authority. I sat on some of the the debate on council housing in general another day, leaders boards in the north-east as well, and I know that but the omission of dealing up front with the issue of the historical machine of a Labour Administration had affordable housing in these proposals from the Mayor is nothing to do with localism. Now, four years later, they the most glaring. It is silly of the Minister to say that have not had a road to Damascus moment and forgotten three Labour councils should be able to fight their cause about their regional strategies and regional government and win when they have three votes out of 15 on the and the power that was taken out of local authorities board. It is simply wrong to say that the Scrubs is and given to RDAs, which were driving political decisions entirely protected. We have already seen an attempt to from the centre, and the fact that outcomes were driven put a viaduct over it and an attempt to turn it into by centrally located targets. I am not quite sure of the wetlands, just in the preliminary issues. We are fearful details, but I am sure that the Labour Members voted about that. against nearly all the provisions laid out in the Localism Finally, if the Minister is right and plans can evolve Bill, so heaven forbid that a Labour Administration over time, why the haste to push so much through in the come back and change some of the powers that we have current Mayor’s last term of office? There are suspicions, given to local authorities. notwithstanding the great opportunities. I hope that The reality is that local authorities, regardless of their this will be a site that all of London will be proud of in political colour, will be empowered to have that strong 20 or 30 years’ time and that it will create opportunities relationship in driving forward the day-to-day planning not only for my constituents, but for everyone who lives activities associated with the MDC. Local residents can in that part of west and north-west London, but I fear be confident that it will be their representatives doing that, at the moment, we are going about it the wrong that, regardless of the political party. It may be Labour way. Let us hope that I am proved wrong. Members who are out there arguing that, and I will We have had a very good debate today. We do not champion them if that is the case and that is what they often have the opportunity to go into this degree of need to do. However, there is no removal of the democratic detail. I am very grateful to you, Mr Sheridan, and to process in this. Mr Hollobone for chairing the debate. The Minister is right about one thing. We will continue to fight our The fundamental bit, which completely contradicts corner and our cause with all the forces that he has the argument made by Labour Members, is that the heard about today, in the community, the councils, city Mayor is elected and is up for election in a year’s time or hall and elsewhere, to ensure that the resolution of Old so. Individuals will be able to challenge the new candidates Oak is satisfactory to my constituents. about what is on offer and the outcomes that will be determined, but the local plan, the engagement of local Question put and agreed to. authorities, the role of the Mayor, the fundamental role of the representative, and the fundamental role of the 4.9 pm citizen are all actually empowered by this process. Sitting adjourned.

47WS Written Statements12 FEBRUARY 2015 Written Statements 48WS Written Statements North West St Helens Chamber Ltd Economic Solutions Ltd Thursday 12 February 2015 Cumbria Chamber of Commerce East Lancashire Chamber of Commerce and Industry Victrex plc BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS MSIF M Sport Ltd Regional Growth Fund HPL Prototypes Ltd Hanson Springs Ltd S Cartwright & Sons (Coachbuilders) Ltd The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg Clark): We are today announcing that regional growth Barnfield Investment Properties Ltd fund support in England has been expanded by nearly The University of Manchester £300 million, bringing the total investment in local jobs BioCity Nottingham Ltd and enterprise over the six rounds to £2.85 billion. Reform Energy plc The additional support has been awarded to 63 bidders in round 6 of the regional growth fund alongside projects South East and programmes awarded exceptional regional growth Vector Aerospace International Ltd fund support. Aeromet International plc A list of the organisations supported in round 6 can North Sails be found below. Total regional growth fund investment is now expected South West to create or safeguard 580,000 jobs and leverage £16 billion City College Plymouth of private sector support across England by the middle University of the West of England of the next decade. Over 100,000 of these jobs have Plymouth University/SWMAS Ltd already been created or safeguarded and £3.35 billion of private sector investment leveraged. Avanti Communications Group plc The regional growth fund was launched in 2010; it Plessey Semiconductors Ltd provides grants to projects and programmes with significant University of Gloucestershire potential for economic growth, leveraging private sector Ashwoods Automotive Ltd investment and creating or safeguarding jobs. Organisations are invited to bid for support in rounds Anthony Best Dynamics Ltd and this is the sixth such round to date. Cambridge Silicon Radio Ltd Combined with the £7 billion allocated so far to the Corin Ltd South West local enterprise partnerships through growth deals, the Spirent Communications plc regional growth fund is delivering tangible benefits across England. Tulip Ltd Goonhilly Earth Station Hymec Aerospace (UK) Ltd LIST OF PROJECTS AND PROGRAMMES East Midlands West Midlands The University of Nottingham NTM GB Ltd Eicher Motors Ltd Easat Antennas Ltd East of England Brose UK Ltd Hybrid Air Vehicles Ltd Greater Birmingham Chambers of Commerce Bosch Lawn and Garden Ltd The Lighting Industry Association Ltd Nwes & Archant Arlington Wheels Ltd CTruk Boats Ltd Stobart Biomass Products Ltd Nationwide Conder Structures FSE Social Impact Accelerator (Programme) Ltd University of Wolverhampton Cavendish Consortium Jaguar Land Rover Ltd Sharing in Growth UK Ltd Rimstock plc Economic Solutions Ltd Company name withheld Creative England YTKO Yorkshire and the Humber North East BE Group Siro (UK) Ltd Cs Wind UK Ltd Bristol Laboratories Ltd Finance Yorkshire Ltd Procter and Gamble Technical Centres Ltd Kemira Chemicals UK Ltd Company name withheld [HCWS281] 49WS Written Statements12 FEBRUARY 2015 Written Statements 50WS

EDUCATION of religion; and religious ethics. Through these, students will also be expected to engage with the works and arguments of key theologians, scholars, philosophers Reformed GCSE and A-level Content and/or ethicists. All of these subjects have been prepared with the close involvement of subject organisations and experts, The Minister of State, Department for Education and I want to thank them for their contribution to the (Mr Nick Gibb): The Government are reforming reforms. qualifications to provide students with the knowledge [HCWS280] and understanding that will prepare them for employment and further study. The new GCSEs will provide young people with more fulfilling and demanding courses of study, and reformed A-levels will better prepare students School Places for undergraduate study. The Government have already published subject content for a number of GCSEs and A-levels to be reformed. The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan): Content for reformed GCSE subjects can be found Today, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for online at https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ Schools and I are announcing £1.6 billion of capital gcse-subject-content and content for A/AS level subjects funding to support the creation of the new school online at https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ places needed by September 2018. gce-as-and-a-level-subject-content Ensuring that every child is able to attend a good or Today, I am publishing revised content for the remaining outstanding school in their local area is at the heart of GCSEs and A-levels that will be taught in schools from the Government’s comprehensive programme of reform September 2016: GCSEs in citizenship studies, drama, of the school system. We know that our growing population food preparation and nutrition, and religious studies; means that new school places are needed in many parts and A-levels in drama and theatre, and religious studies. of the country so the Government are absolutely committed In common with all reformed GCSEs and A-levels, the to providing capital investment to ensure every child qualifications will be academically rigorous to prepare has a place at school. We have more than doubled students for life in modern Britain and keep pace with funding for new places to £5 billion in this Parliament. the expectations of universities and employers. By May 2014, this investment had already helped to create an additional 445,000 school places with more Key changes to the reformed qualifications are still to come. highlighted below: The new citizenship studies GCSE will require students to Today we are announcing £1.3 billion of funding for develop more detailed knowledge of citizenship, including local authorities in 2017-18. This is in addition to the knowledge of democracy and government, the legal system, £5 billion allocated over 2011-15 and the £2.35 billion society and the public finances. While students will be required already announced for 2015-17. In doing so, we recognise to undertake at least one in-depth, critical investigation leading that good investment decisions require certainty. to a campaign or other similar activity, Ofqual has decided Announcing allocations for 2017-18 today means local that assessment of the knowledge and understanding gained authorities will be able to plan effectively and make through such action will now be by written examination. good strategic investment decisions to ensure they deliver The drama GCSE and drama and theatre A-level are more school places for every child who needs one in the rigorous and offer greater breadth to students. At GCSE, students will study at least one play in depth, including its coming years. social, cultural and historical context, and two extracts from a As well as local authority allocations for 2017-18, we second play. At A-level, students will study at least two plays in are also announcing how we will allocate the £300 million depth, three extracts from other plays and two theatre top-slice held back from our 2015-17 allocations. This practitioners—individuals or theatre companies. Performance funding will be targeted at local authorities experiencing skills have been enhanced for both qualifications: all GCSE students will have the opportunity to participate in two significant and unexpected increases in their pupil numbers performances and A-level students will use the working over the next few years, with payments starting in the methodologies of the practitioners studied in their own work. coming financial year so that local authorities can Food preparation and nutrition is a new GCSE that draws and benefit from this funding straight away. builds on the best of current food-related qualifications. This In making these allocations this Government are GCSE will place a greater focus on knowledge, including continuing to target funding effectively, based on local scientific knowledge of food and nutrition, and will enable needs, using data we have collected from local authorities students to apply this when preparing and cooking meals. about the capacity of schools and forecast pupil projections. The new religious studies (RS) qualifications will provide Later in the spring we will also be publishing updated students with a broader and deeper knowledge of religion. information on the number of primary places each GCSE RS students will spend at least half of their local authority is creating, as well as their cost and time developing knowledge and understanding of two quality. religions, with the option to spend up to three-quarters of their time studying one of the two. Students will also This will help ensure greater accountability and be able to study texts and learn about critiques of transparency around the places provided and at what religion and other non- religious beliefs through the cost. study of philosophy and ethics. Details of today’s announcement will be sent to local A-level RS students will study at least one religion in authorities and be published on the gov.uk website. depth through three of the following areas of study: the Copies will be placed in the Library of the House. systematic study of religion; textual studies; philosophy [HCWS288] 51WS Written Statements12 FEBRUARY 2015 Written Statements 52WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS levy at the March Council, when more complete production figures for 2014-15 would be available. He also confirmed that he was considering what EU action could be taken Agriculture and Fisheries Council to tackle exploitation in the supply chain. On fruit and vegetables, Commissioner Hogan maintained that the current measures were sufficient. On pig meat, however, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, he accepted they might have to consider new measures. Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I represented In response to Italy’s concerns about falling EU sugar the UK at the EU Agriculture and Fisheries Council on prices, Commissioner Hogan argued that the EU had 26 January in Brussels. Rebecca Evans AM and Richard benefited from historically high EU prices and underlined Lochhead MSP were also present. that producers had had many years to prepare for the FISHERIES end of quotas. Multiannual plan for fisheries in the Baltic sea [HCWS284] Commissioner Vella presented the proposal for a multiannual plan (MAP) for fisheries in the Baltic sea. I welcomed the proposal as it would be an important tool FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE for achieving the aims of the reformed common fisheries policy but stressed the need for it to reinforce regionalisation. I argued that the inclusion of maximum sustainable London P5 Conference yield ranges in the MAP did not infringe on the Council’s competence to set total allowable catches. France, Italy, Belgium and Spain however raised concerns that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign proposal would impinge on the Council’s competence. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): I would France also raised issues with the current formulation like to update the House on the outcome of the recent of the proposed delegated acts. London conference of the five nuclear non-proliferation AOB: The “Omnibus Regulation” implementing the landing treaty (NPT) nuclear-weapon states (the “P5”). The obligation conference was held on 4 and 5 February at Lancaster House. The presidency affirmed that they wanted to reach an early deal with the European Parliament (EP) on the After the UK initiated the P5 process in 2009, each of “Omnibus Regulation” removing legislative impediments the P5 has held a conference, and the London conference to the implementation of the landing obligation. They saw the start of a second cycle. The conferences have asked member states if they could support a deal which offered the nuclear weapon states a chance to engage in prevented any weakening of the regulation, but included, a structured dialogue. The London conference was at the request of the EP, a new obligation on member successful in positioning the UK well in the run up to states to submit annual reports on the implementation the NPT review conference, taking place 27 April to of the landing obligation. I, along with a number of 22 May. We welcomed France’s offer to host the next P5 other member states, supported an early deal, subject to conference. minimising the potential administrative burden of the A copy of the joint statement issued by the P5 after new proposed reporting obligations. I also stressed, the conference can be found as an attachment online at: with support from Spain, Belgium, Ireland and Malta, http://www.parliament.uk/writtenstatements that we did not want to see responsibility for dealing [HCWS285] with undersized fish being placed on to the member states as a part of a final deal. British Diplomatic Staff in Sana’a AGRICULTURE Pig meat trade with Russia The presidency accepted Poland’s request for a discussion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign on the recent reports that some member states had been and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): I wish approached by Russia to reopen bilateral trade on pig to inform the House that the Foreign Secretary has meat. Poland along with the Baltic member states argued taken the decision on security grounds to suspend that the Russian ban on EU agriculture products was temporarily the services of the British embassy in Sana’a imposed simultaneously on all member states and and to withdraw diplomatic staff. therefore should be lifted in the same manner. I supported We have maintained an embassy in Sana’a despite the Poland and the Baltics and stressed that the EU should violence to help us communicate with political actors in be united in its approach to Russia. Commissioner Yemen and provide insight into the situation on the Andriukaitis argued that bilateral trade deals with Russia ground. Throughout this period we have kept the security were unacceptable and that the Commission would not situation under constant review. Regrettably the security tolerate discrimination between member states. situation in Yemen has continued to deteriorate over Market developments, including the effects of the Russian recent days and the risk to our embassy staff and import ban premises increased. Therefore we decided to withdraw There was a discussion on the situation in various diplomatic staff and suspend temporarily the operations market sectors. On dairy, Commissioner Hogan announced of the British embassy in Sana’a. Our ambassador and that private storage aid (PSA) for butter and skimmed diplomatic staff have now returned to the UK. milk powder would remain open until September 2015 We advise British nationals who remain in Yemen, but rejected calls for PSA for cheese. He agreed to despite our long-standing and consistent message to consider the issue of staggered payment of milk super leave the country, to leave immediately. 53WS Written Statements12 FEBRUARY 2015 Written Statements 54WS

We continue to believe that a stable, united, democratic I have consulted the Care Quality Commission (CQC) and prosperous Yemen is the best future for the country. as I am required to do before publishing my guidance, We will continue to work with international partners to under section 65N of the 2006 Act. My Department help Yemen achieve a legitimate, transparent political also consulted a range of key stakeholders on the draft transition in which all Yemenis are represented. guidance. [HCWS286] The guidance incorporates the new powers and requirements in the Care Act 2014 to strengthen the TSA’s regime. These include: HEALTH enabling a TSA to take a view of the local health economy and, where it is necessary for and consequential upon action recommended at the trust in administration, permitting the TSA to make recommendations which may affect services at Trust Special Administrators other trusts; matching the TSA’s widened legal remit with a requirement The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): to consult those other trusts, their staff and their commissioners who would be affected by the recommendations; I am today publishing revised “Statutory Guidance to Trust Special Administrators appointed to NHS Trusts”, strengthening the representation of patients and local populations in accordance with section 65N of the National Health through a requirement on the TSA to consult local authorities Service Act 2006 (the 2006 Act). The document comprises and local healthwatch organisations during the statutory public consultation on the recommendations, in all the areas guidance for trust special administrators (TSAs) to whose services would be affected by them; which they must have regard in carrying out their duties under chapter 5A of the 2006 Act, referred to by requiring the TSA to consult the CQC; and, Government as the trust special administrator’s regime. giving the TSA more time to develop recommendations and It replaces the version published on 5 July 2012. consult on them. The TSA’s regime was introduced by the Health Act In accordance with my duty under section 65N of the 2009 and set out under chapter 5A of the 2006 Act. It 2006 Act, the guidance addresses matters required by offers a time-limited framework to deal with urgent that section, such as the persons to be consulted and issues affecting the ability of an NHS trust or foundation factors to be taken into account in the preparation of trust to deliver patient care, whether for clinical or the TSA’s draft report, the publication of notices and financial reasons, or both. A TSA must make statements, and the arrangements for a TSA at an NHS recommendations to the Secretary of State, or in the trust to seek support from commissioners for his or her case of a foundation trust, to Monitor, about actions to recommendations and on involving NHS England. The secure into the future the delivery of quality, safe and latter replicates the substance of the statutory provisions financially sustainable essential services of the trust in the regime for foundation trusts. A TSA at an NHS under administration. trust should therefore ensure the involvement of local commissioners of all affected trusts, and take fully into I stress that the regime is a measure of last resort. It is account the need to protect essential NHS services of likely to be considered only when all other processes at a the NHS trust under administration and of any other local level to deal with the challenges of hospitals have potentially affected trust. been exhausted. Since 2009, the regime has been used The guidance is clear that the TSA should engage only twice. with the public, patients, NHS staff and other relevant stakeholders in a meaningful way from the earliest Last year, we asked the right hon. Member for Sutton possible point. It covers other areas including the and Cheam (Paul Burstow) to chair a committee of independent nature of the TSA’s role and his or her MPs, Peers and others to review the development of relationship with national bodies, clinical engagement, updated guidance to TSAs. The committee considered engaging other providers, the role of the CQC, taking the guidance I am publishing and revised “Statutory into account marginalised or hard-to-reach groups, cross- Guidance for Trust Special Administrators appointed border patients and equality legislation. We have to NHS Foundation Trusts”to be published by Monitor. endeavoured to ensure consistency as between this guidance Meetings took place between July 2014 and January and Monitor’s revised “Statutory Guidance for Trust 2015. I am pleased to have been able to accept the Special Administrators appointed to NHS Foundation recommendations the committee made to me and believe Trusts”. This latter is expected to be published by the guidance I am publishing is significantly improved Monitor shortly. as a result. I would like to place on record my thanks to the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam, the right NHS England, Monitor and the NHS Trust hon. Member for Rother Valley (Kevin Barron), the Development Authority are developing a “success regime” hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), Baroness intended to help create the conditions for success in the Finlay of Llandaff, Matt Tee and Dr Johnny Marshall most challenged health economies1.. The guidance I am from the NHS Confederation and Jeremy Taylor from publishing today also gives examples of measures to National Voices, for the dedication and rigour with tackle failings in NHS trusts before use of the TSA’s which they considered the issues before the committee. regime would be expected to be considered. However, it Letters from the committee and notes of its meetings remains that the TSA’s regime is available to address will be published alongside the committee’s terms of those rare but very significant failures in the health reference which are available at: https://www.gov.uk/ service in a swift and effective way, ultimately, for the government/groups/committee-to-consider-statutory- protection of NHS patients and the public, and NHS guidance-for-trust-special-administrators staff who would otherwise suffer. 55WS Written Statements12 FEBRUARY 2015 Written Statements 56WS

A copy of the revised “Statutory Guidance to Trust location of UK resident family members; Special Administrators appointed to NHS Trusts” has community demographics. been placed in the Library. It can be found at: https:// Decisions about whether to impose travel restrictions www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory- on a TPIM subject will be taken on a case-by-case basis guidance-for-trust-special-administrators-appointed- and will reflect the need to minimise the risk that the to-nhs-trusts individual poses to the public while taking into account 1. Referred to in the NHS planning guidance for 2015-16 (The the personal circumstances of the individual in question. Forward View into action: planning for 2015-16) [HCWS287] [HCWS282]

LEADER OF THE HOUSE HOME DEPARTMENT

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures House of Commons Commission Bill: “Keeling” Schedule

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): Clause 17 of the Counter-Terrorism The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House and Security Bill requires the Secretary of State to of Commons (Mr William Hague): The House of Commons publish factors that she considers are appropriate to Commission Bill was introduced on 4 February 2015. take into account when deciding whether to impose The Bill makes the legislative changes required to implement restrictions under paragraph 2 of schedule 1 of the TPIM the recommendations of the House of Commons Act (travel restrictions). Governance Committee in its report, “House of Commons Governance”, published on 16 December 2014. The Bill The following factors are appropriate to take into makes these changes by amending sections of the House account when deciding whether to impose restrictions of Commons (Administration) Act 1978 that relate to under paragraph 2 of schedule 1 of the TPIM Act the composition and functions of the House of Commons (travel restrictions): Commission. In order to inform the debate on the Bill, the need to prevent or restrict a TPIM subject’s involvement the Government are publishing today a “Keeling”schedule in terrorism-related activity; of the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978, the personal circumstances of the individual; showing the text of that Act with the inclusion of the proximity to travel links including public transport, airports, amendments made by the House of Commons Commission ports and international rail terminals; Bill. The “Keeling” schedule is available in the Vote the availability of services and amenities, including access to Office and can be accessed online at the Bills before employment, education, places of worship and medical facilities; Parliament pages on: www.parliament.uk proximity to prohibited associates; [HCWS283] proximity to positive personal influences;

11P Petitions12 FEBRUARY 2015 Petitions 12P

for the rights of those UK Petitioners; further requests Petitions pursuant to the facts and matters set out herein the House of Commons set up a full inquiry. Thursday 12 February 2015 And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by John Hemming.] [P001437] PRESENTED PETITION

Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor OBSERVATIONS

UK Petitions to the European Court of Human Rights EDUCATION The Petition of Jonathan Roger Steinberg, Closure of Glenburn Sports College Declares that the Petitioner is a resident of both London and New York; further that the Petitioner and The Petition of residents of West Lancashire, his mother were forced to leave their home; further that Declares that there are plans to close Glenburn Sports the Petitioner believes that he was deprived of his home College; further that the Petitioners do not support the and assets as a result of a malicious vendetta carried closure of Glenburn Sports College but wish to keep it out by a solicitor in over half a dozen pieces of litigation as the local school in the Skelmersdale area; further that concluding with Pritchard Englefield v. Steinberg the Petitioners deplore the high-handed way that Lancashire HQ02X01159; further that the Petitioner believes that County Council decided to consult on the possible each such action over a 15 year period was commenced closure of the school; and further that a local petition in abuse of process by a firm of solicitors acting for on this matter was signed by 2,759 individuals. their own benefit; further that in that litigation, the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of solicitor succeeded by applying to various courts for Commons urges the Government to encourage Lancashire various ex parte and without notice judgments often by County Council to have a genuine consultation about presenting falsified evidence and at a time when they the possible closure of Glenburn Sports College in knew the Petitioner was unable to take part in the order to listen to the pupils and parents of the school litigation for medical reasons; further that the UK and to explain the decision-making process behind the judge assumed a right to handle the solicitor’s application plans to close the school; and further request that the because he said he had power after a few weeks wait to House of Commons urges the Government to encourage “decide the time had come” to dispense with the strictures Lancashire County Council to give time and support to of Article 6(1) of the European Convention on Human Glenburn Sports College to enable the school to improve Rights and pass judgment against a party who could its performance and financial position. not take part in the proceedings for medical reasons and deprive that party and his family of their home contrary And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Rosie to Article 8(1) of the Convention without giving that Cooper, Official Report, 16 December 2014; Vol. 589, party any opportunity to present opposition to such c. 1375.] application or applications; further that the Petitioner [P001415] believes that without any or proper reference to judicial Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: staff, the European Court of Human Rights wrongly The Government are committed to transforming the struck out the Petitioner’s petition to that court without schools system to ensure that not only are there a any hearing and without being able to write any judgment sufficient supply of schools places but that these places in the case with the statement that the petition are of the highest quality. disclosed no breach of any Convention right; and further that the Petitioner believes that litigation before courts Decisions relating to school closures are taken locally of the UK should be properly and fairly disposed and following a well-established five-stage statutory process. that applications should not be left undecided for any The process includes an early consultation period to reason. allow those affected by the closure proposals to submit views and comments. The proposals must then be published The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of in a number of places and a formal representation Commons urges the Government to strengthen the period follows. This allows a further opportunity for procedures for requesting the Master of the Rolls to views and comments to be submitted. review a litigation case under Section 54(4) of the Senior Courts Act 1981; further requests that the House The Decision makers’ guidance document issued by requests that the Government press the Council of the Department gives a full and comprehensive explanation Europe to review the Petition process of the European of all of the issues and considerations which the decision- Court of Human Rights to establish whether UK Petitions maker must take into account when considering statutory are properly treated when tested against whether a proposals. They must be fully satisfied that the appropriate violation of rights is alleged and to establish what statutory process has been carried out, that all views further steps could be taken to strengthen the rights of submitted have been considered and all issues surrounding UK subjects who have Petitions before the European the closure, especially alternative and suitable provision Court; and further requests that the House urges the for displaced pupils, have been explored and planned. Government to consider whether steps should be taken Lancashire County Council is proposing the closure to strengthen the rights of UK subjects who have Petitions of Glenburn Sports College due to concerns over wrongly culled from European Court lists without regard educational standards, falling pupil numbers and financial 13P Petitions12 FEBRUARY 2015 Petitions 14P viability. The stage one (informal) consultation period The Petitioners therefore request that the House of closed on 14 December 2014. The Council will consider Commons urges the Government to consider the rules the comments received and decide if they wish to move regarding marches and demonstrations, including looking forward with the closure proposal. A final decision to specifically at the thresholds that are used to ban marches close Glenburn Sports College has not yet been made. and demonstrations so that they include a provision to If the Council decides to proceed with the closure of consider the economic impact of such marches as well Glenburn Sports College, then they will be responsible as looking at the restrictions that are in place on the for making a final decision on the closure proposals. frequency, location, time or date of marches and However if they do not decide the proposal within two demonstrations. months; the decision is taken by the Schools Adjudicator. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Sarah As Glenburn is a foundation school, if the Council does Champion, Official Report, 21 January 2015; Vol. 591, take a decision to close the school, then the Governing c. 334.] Body could appeal to the Schools Adjudicator, within [P001425] four weeks of the decision being made. Observations from the Secretary of State for the Home As these decisions must be made locally, the Government Department: are unable to influence the outcome. The Secretary of The Government recognise the concerns raised about State’s intervention powers in matters such as these are the impact of recent protests in Rotherham. extremely limited. She may only intervene where the This country has a longstanding tradition of giving local authority has acted in breach of its statutory people the freedom to gather together and to demonstrate, duties, or acted in a way that is so unreasonable that no provided that they do so within the law. A balance has other authority would have acted in such a way. to be struck between protecting the rights of businesses undertaking lawful activities, the rights of residents to go about their business without fear of intimidation, and the rights of protesters. HOME DEPARTMENT The management of protests and demonstrations is Rules on Marches and Demonstrations an operational matter for the police, who work with local partners to reduce the impact of disruptive protests The Petition of residents of the UK, on the community. The Public Order Act 1986 provides Declares that the threshold to ban marches and the police with a range of powers to deal with marches demonstrations is currently measured in terms of public and static protests. Under section 12 and section 14 of safety, not economic impact; further that there are the Act, chief officers may impose conditions on marches currently no restrictions on the frequency, location, and static protests to prevent serious public disorder, time and date of marches; further that the Petitioners serious damage to property, serious disruption to the believe that marches and demonstrations are having an life of the community, or intimidation. Under section impact on the lives and trades of residents in Rotherham; 14 the conditions can relate to the location of the further that the Police and local council in Rotherham protest, the maximum duration, and the maximum have tried their best to minimise the disruption to number of participants. Under section 13 of the Act, if traders in Rotherham of marches and demonstrations the police assess a march will cause serious public to ensure that businesses stay open; further that when disorder, despite conditions being set, the police can marches and demonstrations occur in Rotherham significant apply to the local authority for an order banning all parts of the town have to close; further that the Petitioners marches in a district for up to 3 months. The banning believe such protests and marches are having a devastating order can only be made with the Home Secretary’s impact on local communities; and further that a local approval. petition in Rotherham on this subject has received The Government keep the public order legislation nearly 300 signatures. under review to ensure its effectiveness. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 12 February 2015

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 933 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Bank Lending ...... 942 Manufacturing...... 940 Digital Single Market...... 945 Small Farm Companies...... 933 Engineers ...... 935 Technology and Video Games Sectors ...... 934 Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme ...... 939 Topical Questions ...... 945 EU Membership ...... 943 UK’s First Space Port...... 944 Government Procurement...... 937 Universal Service Obligation (Mail Deliveries)...... 936 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 12 February 2015

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 47WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Regional Growth Fund...... 47WS continued London P5 Conference ...... 52WS EDUCATION...... 49WS Reformed GCSE and A-level Content ...... 49WS HEALTH...... 53WS School Places ...... 50WS Trust Special Administrators...... 53WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOME DEPARTMENT...... 55WS AFFAIRS...... 51WS Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures . 55WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 51WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 56WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 52WS House of Commons Commission Bill: “Keeling” British Diplomatic Staff in Sana’a ...... 52WS Schedule...... 56WS PETITIONS

Thursday 12 February 2015

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 12P PRESENTED PETITION Closure of Glenburn Sports College ...... 12P UK Petitions to the European Court of Human Rights ...... 11P HOME DEPARTMENT...... 13P Rules on Marches and Demonstrations ...... 13P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 19 February 2015

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 592 Thursday No. 110 12 February 2015

CONTENTS

Thursday 12 February 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 933] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 953] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Backbench Business Pubs and Planning Legislation [Col. 965] Motion—(Charlotte Leslie)—agreed to

Royal Assent [Col. 1000]

Backbench Business Destruction of Historic Sites (Syria and Iraq) [Col. 1002] Motion—(Robert Jenrick)—agreed to Mental Health and Well-being of Londoners [Col. 1023] Motion—(Ms Abbott)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1048]

Scotch Whisky Industry [Col. 1050] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall National Infrastructure Projects (Local Development) [Col. 311WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 47WS]

Petitions [Col. 11P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]