Legislative Assembly 10425 17 November 1994

THURSDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 1994 The following papers were laid on the table— Minister for Health (Mr Hayward)—

Mr SPEAKER (Hon. J. Fouras, Ashgrove) Psychologists Board of Queensland— read prayers and took the chair at 10 a.m. Annual Report for 1993-94 Review of Health Practitioner Registration Acts—Discussion Paper, Executive NOTICE OF QUESTION Summary and attachments (Chiropractors and Osteopaths Act, Optometrists Act, Mr SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Occupational Therapists Act, Pharmacy members, yesterday, at the conclusion of Act, Physiotherapists Act, Podiatrists Act, question time, Mr Cooper put a question on Psychologists Act, Speech Pathologists notice to the Minister for Justice and Act). Attorney-General and Minister for the Arts. The question was based on a hypothetical proposition—"If the Senate decided to initiate an MINISTERIAL STATEMENT inquiry . . ." In seeking answers to questions, Parliamentary Trade Delegation to members are seeking information which should Japan, China, Korea and Hong Kong be based on existing factual situations. Hon. J. P. ELDER (Capalaba— Minister In accordance with established for Business, Industry and Regional parliamentary precedent, I have ruled Mr Development) (10.04 a.m.), by leave: I wish to Cooper's question out of order. I ask the Clerk to report to the Parliament on a recent visit by an all- read the list of petitions lodged. party parliamentary trade delegation to Japan, Opposition members interjected. China, Korea and Hong Kong. The visit was undertaken over the period 2 October to 16 Mr SPEAKER: Order! I want to be able to October 1994. Other members of the delegation hear the Clerk read the petitions. were the honourable members for Brisbane Central, Barron River, Cook, Indooroopilly, PETITIONS Lockyer and Charters Towers. I seek leave to table that report. The Clerk announced the receipt of the Leave granted. following petitions— Mr ELDER: I also wish to report to the House on a mission to Japan immediately Amalgamation of Moreton Shire and following the previously mentioned trip to attend Ipswich City the Asia Kyushu Regional Exchange held in the Oita Prefecture on the island of Kyushu in Japan From Mr Borbidge (4 749 signatories) from Thursday, 20 October to Sunday, 23 praying that the Parliament of Queensland will (a) October. I seek leave to table that report as well. reject the Local Government Commissioner's recommendation to merge Moreton Shire and Leave granted. Ipswich City; and (b) amend the Local Government Act 1993 to allow affected LEAVE TO MOVE MOTION WITHOUT residents' views to be considered on any NOTICE proposed amalgamation, merger or external boundary changes by way of a referendum. Mr HORAN (Toowoomba South) (10.05 a.m.): I seek leave to move a motion without notice. Fisherman Islands Port Question—That leave be granted—put; From Mr Purcell (36 signatories) praying and the House divided— that the Ministers responsible for the planning AYES, 33—Beanland, Borbidge, Connor, Cooper, and development of the proposed port road Davidson, Elliott, FitzGerald, Gamin, Goss J. N., corridor to Fisherman Islands Port will attend a Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, Lester, public meeting to openly discuss this matter and Lingard, Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Perrett, Quinn, that all interested parties be informed of the Rowell, Santoro, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, Stephan, proposed meeting. Stoneman, Turner, Veivers, Watson Tellers: Laming, Petitions received. Springborg PAPERS NOES, 51—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Budd, Campbell, Casey, 17 November 1994 10426 Legislative Assembly

Clark, Comben, D’Arcy, Davies, De Lacy, Dollin, expenditure of $106,148 to 31 December, 1994 Edmond, Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Gibbs, Goss W. K., and that the QTTC has spent approximately Hamill, Hayward, Hollis, Mackenroth, McElligott, $460,000 up to 31 October, 1994. McGrady, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Palaszczuk, Pearce, (2) Television advertising campaigns are the Purcell, Pyke, Robertson, Robson, Rose, Smith, responsibility of individual portfolio areas. Spence, Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Information on planned television advertising Vaughan, Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: campaigns and associated expenditure should Pitt, Livingstone be sought from individual Ministers. Resolved in the negative. Obviously there will be advertising in support of continuing community education and information QUESTION UPON NOTICE efforts in various areas as required. Government Advertising (3) Information on placement expenditure on television advertising by departments for the Mrs SHELDON asked the Premier and period 1 July 1994 to 31 October 1994 is Minister for Economic and Trade Development— attached. "In light of the recent prime time (4) Information on placement expenditure on television advertising by his government on television advertising by departments for the the SEQ 2001 report, Queensland Rail, 1992-1993 and 1993-1994 financial years is tourism and, incredible as it may seem, the attached. soÐcalled achievements of Queensland Health— TELEVISION ADVERTISING EXPENDITURE (1) How much will these advertising GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS campaigns each cost? 1992/93 1993/94 1994/95 * (2) What other television advertising Admin Services campaigns is his government planning Auditor General in the next 8 to 12 months? DBird (3) How much will the government, DEVETIR (inc TAFE) 46,304 281,519 55,850 department by department, spend on Education 303,444 253,334 television advertising in the 1994Ð95 Environment 86 financial year? Family Services Health (inc Reg Health) 591,630 816,320 155,630 (4) How much did his government, Housing 67,530 department by department, spend on Justice & Att/Gen 154,155 23,954 2,533 television advertising in the 1992Ð93 Lands and 1993Ð94 financial years?" Minerals and Energy Mr W. K. GOSS: I seek leave to table the Police & Corr Svs 293,100 149,791 answer and have it incorporated in Hansard. Premier 119,595 10,000 68,852 Leave granted. Primary Ind 110,684 1,019 Qld Emergency Serv 323,475 125,754 (1) SEQ 2001 Tourism 2,790 1,467 $64,048—actual expenditure as at 31 Transport (inc Qld Rail) 965,712 446,924 227,004 October 1994. Treasury $234,400—total television advertising Total 2,655,030 2,307,803 635,623 expenditure proposed to 31 December * 1994/1995 = 1 July to 31 October 1994 1994. QUEENSLAND HEALTH QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE In regard to Queensland Health actual expenditure as at 31 October 1994, was Corrective Services Commission $136,892. However, final expenditure on public Mr BORBIDGE: In directing a question to information is not yet available. the Premier, I refer to a prosecutor's comments critical of the Corrective Services Commission In relation to advertising campaigns conducted by Queensland Rail and the Queensland Tourist over the fact that a prisoner committed three and Travel Corporation, these are a commercial counts of rape while on release, highlighting a consideration for the independent boards of chronic failing of the Corrective Services system, those organisations and final details of their on- and I ask: will the Premier order the commission going expenditure will not be available until the to undertake an immediate review of these end of the financial year. However, I am advised programs to protect Queenslanders from such that Queensland Rail has proposed an avoidable attacks? Legislative Assembly 10427 17 November 1994

Mr W. K. GOSS: I have not seen the and South East Asia. We have the best prosecutor's statement, but I will get a copy of it communications network with Asia, particularly as soon as possible and respond when I know our international airports. In a whole range of what the member is talking about. ways, I believe that we are well placed. I do not believe that we in Queensland ought to be overwhelmed by what is going on in Asia and by Security at Juvenile Institutions our capacity to respond to the challenge. Mr BORBIDGE: I direct a further question In that context, last week, the Minister for to the Premier. I refer to the recent call by the Business, Industry and Regional Development, President of the Children's Court, His Honour the Premier and I were in Sydney and Melbourne Judge Maguire, for tightened security in juvenile promoting Queensland as an investment institutions—widely reported in the media, in destination. case the Premier is not aware of it—which was made more piquant by the escape by taxi this Mr Milliner: You did a tremendous job, week of four inmates from the Sir Leslie Wilson too. Centre, and I ask: will the Premier now order Mr De LACY: I thank the Minister for improved security in line with the judge's call? Administrative Services for his acknowledgment Mr W. K. GOSS: As I understand the of the success of our visit. I did have prepared at situation, a number of measures have been that time a slide set, of which I will table a hard taken to improve security. Obviously, in the light copy version. of any such comment by Judge Maguire, further To put into context the size of the consideration should and will be given to any challenge—one of these bar charts talks about changes or improvements in arrangements in the size of the Queensland economy—$67 respect of security. The other thing I would point billion, which is just a fraction smaller than South out is that the judge also made a point of saying Australia and Western Australia put together, in his speech that he agreed with recent larger than the economy of New Zealand, just a comments that I had made in relation to the fraction smaller than the Singapore economy of problems of juvenile crime and the need for a $75 billion and not that much smaller than the more community-based and positive approach to whole economy of Malaysia, which represents dealing with the problem. $90 billion. In terms of growth—over the last three APEC Free Trade Agreement years, Queensland has grown by 16.7 per cent in real terms. The rest of Australia has grown by Mr PITT: In directing a question to the 6.6 per cent; the OECD countries by 5.7 per Treasurer, I refer to the APEC free trade cent; and the so-called Asian tigers by 20.3 per agreement signed by the Prime Minister earlier cent. So one can see that Queensland is in the this week and concerns expressed in some same league as the Asian tigers. My department quarters about Australia's inability to compete in has said that if it were not for the impact of the the Asian markets, and I ask: can the Treasurer drought over the past three years, our economic advise the House if the Queensland economy growth would have been about 20 per will be able to compete with the Asian economic cent—exactly the same as that of the Asian tigers? tigers. Mr De LACY: This question raises a In terms of population growth—last year, couple of interesting issues. I believe that the Queensland grew by 2.6 per cent. In fact, for the free trade agreement that is being negotiated at whole of the last 10 years population growth in APEC provides a wonderful opportunity for Queensland has averaged 2.6 per cent. Last Queensland. I believe it is obvious—or it should year, the population growth in the rest of be obvious—to all members that Queensland is Australia was 0.7 per cent; in South East Asia, best placed of all Australian States to benefit. 1.8 per cent; New Zealand, 1.1 per cent; and the The industries that we have in Queensland—the world, 1.7 per cent. mining industry, agricultural industries, the tourism industry and the new manufacturing Mr FitzGerald: What about China? industries—have all grown without the mantle of Mr De LACY: I do not have figures for protective tariffs, as has been the case in other China. States of Australia. Mr FitzGerald: How is that relevant? Queensland is well placed in a number of Mr De LACY: It is part of the world, which other ways—low tax, low debt. We also have a is growing at 1.7 per cent. Queensland is up comprehensive Asian languages course in there with the very best of them. I believe that a primary and secondary schools. We have the free trade agreement can only benefit best network of trade offices throughout Asia 17 November 1994 10428 Legislative Assembly

Queensland. I take this opportunity of tabling in Act to redress problems with that Act. I ask: will the House for honourable members a hard copy he bring amendments to this House ending his version of the presentation that I made. I believe direction to judges that a prison sentence be most members will find that very interesting. treated as an option of last resort, and that it is preferred by his Government that offenders remain at large? Property Crime Squad Mr W. K. GOSS: I think that the member Mr PITT: In directing a question to the fails to understand some of the basic principles Minister for Police and Minister for Corrective of criminal law. I do not say that by way of a Services, I refer to the decision outlined in this partisan criticism, but prior to the Penalties and year's Budget to form a Property Crime Squad as Sentences Act coming into being, that part of a crackdown on break and enters, and I statement of the law in relation to sentencing, ask: can the Minister inform the House of the that principle of sentencing law that she referred effectiveness of that squad to date? to, was already the law of Queensland; it was Mr BRADDY: A very important initiative in already a fundamental principle of sentencing this year's Budget was to provide $2.4m for the law. creation of the Property Crime Squad, which is Mrs Sheldon: What about the Litigation already formed and working. As I have said on Reform Commission call? many occasions, the one area of crime that we are determined to crack down on very seriously is Mr W. K. GOSS: What she does not break and enters, because that is certainly an understand is that that was the law under the area of crime growth in Queensland and right conservative Government. throughout Australia. Mr Borbidge: What's your response to Because of our new flexible, enlarged and that report? well-resourced Police Service, in this year's Mr W. K. GOSS: I am giving the Budget we are able to provide the Property honourable member the response. He should Crime Squad with 32 people. As at 9 just try to keep quiet. November—within a short period of the Mr Borbidge: No, you're not. formation of the squad—the Property Crime Squad had already achieved the following Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable results: 74 persons arrested; 617 charges member should give the Premier a chance. preferred; and over $164,000 worth of property Mr W. K. GOSS: The Leader of the recovered. This was in relation to operations in Opposition had a chance to ask a couple of Brisbane, Ipswich, Beenleigh and the Gold Coast questions. He lobbed a few fizzers onto the table areas. and now he wants to have a second chop. We are targeting specific crime and, in fact, Mr Borbidge: What about the escaped making sure that this squad backs up the Criminal prisoner who rapes three times? Investigation Branch and the police in all the Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the Leader of various areas. As needed, the squad will be able the Opposition under Standing Order 123A. to assist in similar operations right across Queensland. Mr W. K. GOSS: It was paedophiles yesterday; he is consistent. The principle of We are also setting up an intelligence sentencing law that the Leader of the Liberal database relating to the movement of stolen Party refers to was the law prior to the Penalties property through pawnbrokers and second-hand and Sentences Act. It is a well-known and long- dealers. We will target and prosecute offenders established principle of sentencing law. identified through that database to make sure that those people who are receivers and on- In relation to the Penalties and Sentences sellers of the stolen property are also brought to Act, I point out that there is no fundamental book for their offences and, in turn, that will mean problem with the Act. However, with any new that break and enter merchants will have less piece of comprehensive legislation such as that, opportunity to carry out their crimes. there will be problems that will require amendment. It is something that is consistently under review by the Government, and Penalties and Sentences Act amendments will be made at the appropriate Mrs SHELDON: In directing a question to time. the Premier, I refer to the call by the powerful The other part of the equation is simply the judges Litigation Reform Commission in its problems that people have from time to time annual report to his Government for adjusting to changes in policy and changes in amendments to the Penalties and Sentences law. We expect that once the dust settles that Legislative Assembly 10429 17 November 1994 people will have a better understanding and will enterprise bargaining agreement with be able to administer the legislation in the way in Queensland's public health workers? which the legislation was intended to be Mr HAYWARD: I thank the honourable administered. Perhaps the Attorney-General will member for the question. I am pleased to inform remind me of the position of the coalition in the House that Queensland Health and health relation to the penalties and sentences union representatives have reached agreement legislation. in principle on a new enterprise bargaining Mr Wells: I think that they supported it. agreement for public health workers which will Mr W. K. GOSS: Yes, that is right; they provide a 9 per cent wage increase over the next supported it. My memory was correct. I thank the two years. These pay rises will be paid in three honourable member for her support for the instalments between now and June 1996 in Penalties and Sentences Act. return for productivity and efficiency improvement assurances from the unions. There will be an initial increase for the 35 000 full and Westbrook Correctional Facility part-time health employees covered by the Mrs SHELDON: Next time, possibly, the agreement of a full 9 per cent, equal to an Premier will answer the question. I will try again. In average pay increase of approximately $55 per directing my second question to the Premier, I week. refer to his Government's decision to close the This is an historic agreement that was Westbrook correctional facility as a youth accepted early yesterday evening at a meeting of detention centre and to reopen it as a low representatives of Queensland Health, the security prison. I ask: how will the Premier deal ACTU Queensland and the Australian Workers with the existing overcrowding in juvenile Union. Queensland is the first State in Australia institutions, or is this just another example of his to establish an enterprise bargaining agreement Government intending to go soft on juvenile to cover all health workers in a particular State. It crime in Queensland? is also important to note that this is biggest single Mr W. K. GOSS: We are building a new enterprise agreement to be negotiated in detention centre. Queensland. Mrs SHELDON: I rise to a point of order. Very clearly, this agreement demonstrates Question time is extremely important to the that the Government, Queensland Health and Opposition and the Premier refused to answer the health unions have understood and any of those questions. accepted enterprise bargaining and the legitimate gains that can be obtained both for Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable employees and employers through the process. member will resume her seat. There is no point of It represents the mutual acceptance of wage order. agreements that meet the needs of workers in the public health system and which are Enterprise Bargaining, Public Health achievable, while delivering an overall Workers improvement in service delivery for the people of Queensland. Mr LIVINGSTONE: My first question is to the Minister for Health. I ask: can the Minister All parties involved in negotiating this inform the House—— agreement are to be congratulated for their determination to pursue the objectives of Opposition members interjected. enterprise bargaining in a rational and positive Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable way. The outcomes have been beneficial for all member will resume his seat. I am on my feet. parties concerned, with the ultimate beneficiary, Question time today has not taken off very well at of course, being the people of Queensland, who all. can expect to see a more effective and efficient Mr LIVINGSTONE: My first question is to public health system. the Minister for Health—— Mr Horan: Is it 100 per cent funded or 70 Mr Borbidge interjected. per cent funded? Mr SPEAKER: Order! I was on my feet Mr HAYWARD: This agreement will now and I have warned the Leader of the Opposition. be considered by mass meetings of individual I give him my final warning absolutely. unions and representatives—— Mr LIVINGSTONE: I ask the Minister for Mr Horan interjected. Health: can he inform the House about progress Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member on negotiations for the introduction of an for Toowoomba South under Standing Order 123A. 17 November 1994 10430 Legislative Assembly

Mr HAYWARD: He does not have a clue that the staff should return to work forthwith and and he does not know. He is dirty because it has said that she could not countenance a total been stitched up and fixed, that is what is withdrawal of employees working in an essential worrying him. Representatives at yesterday's service. If the member had any level of meeting endorsed the agreement in principle responsibility, he would adopt the some and will be recommending to members that it be position. accepted. I am confident that health workers will In discussions in the Industrial Relations accept the agreement so that Queensland Commission, management agreed to a set Health and its staff can get on with the job of procedure in the event of any assaults by improving and expanding the services offered children on staff, and the unions agreed to that through the Queensland public health system. procedure. Management has abided by that agreement, and on 9 November that procedure Sir Leslie Wilson Youth Detention was formally communicated to all staff and Centre children at the centre. The procedure is in place and has been followed. Therefore, there has Mr LIVINGSTONE: I ask the Minister for been no breach of any industrial agreement by Family Services and Aboriginal and Islander the Protective Services Branch of my Affairs: is she aware of claims by the Opposition department. that there was breach of an industrial agreement at the Sir Leslie Wilson Youth Detention Centre At the suggestion of Commissioner Swan, on Monday, 7 November? Can the Minister on 7 November—the date of the inform the House of the true situation? hearing—management contacted staff who were An Opposition member: Be careful. to commence the 11 o'clock shift and inform them of the Industrial Relations Commission Ms WARNER: The honourable member recommendation. Staff who wished to confirm opposite warns me to be careful. Unfortunately, I those recommendations were referred to their have to correct the honourable member for the union officials' mobile phone numbers— second time in two days because in the remember, we are talking about 11 o'clock at confusion of opposition, where he receives very night—which had been supplied by both the poor advice, he manages to get most of his AWU and the SPSFQ for verification and public statements wrong. I will set out clearly for communication. Staff who inquired about their the honourable member what the situation is. On pay were told that they would be paid their 7 November, there was irresponsible industrial entitlements. At all times, management complied action taken by the staff of the Sir Leslie Wilson with the recommendations of the commission Youth Detention Centre, industrial action which and assisted the unions to communicate those the honourable member just fell short of recommendations to the staff. commending on the radio a couple of days ago. In fact, I challenge the member opposite to say whether he supports that irresponsible action or Corrective Services Commission not. At 10.50 on 7 November, the department Mr COOPER: I refer the Premier to was notified of an impending stop-work meeting comments last week by the Custodial at 11.30 that day. No skeleton staff were Corrections Director of the Corrective Services provided to maintain security and safety at the Commission, Mr Kevin Corcoran, when he said centre, despite management's request to both that Queensland's gaols were operating at 115 the unions. No notice was given of the issues per cent capacity, that is, with 2 630 inmates and that led to that ensuing strike action. beds for only 2 360. He described the problem Management was given about 30 minutes to as "extremely serious". I also refer the Premier to obtain adequate staff to secure the centre. The Townsville's gaol manager, Mr George Brand, department immediately notified the Industrial who has stated that his gaol has 335 prisoners Commission of the dispute. Commissioner Swan with a capacity of only 281 prisoners— recommended that staff should return to work A Government member interjected. forthwith. Mr COOPER: The member should pull his Mr Littleproud: Recommend or ordered? head in. As such, in Mr Brand's own words, the Ms WARNER: She recommended that situation was potentially explosive. I also refer the staff return to work forthwith. I think that is Premier to the disgraceful watch-house significant. When one talks about a compulsory overcrowding as a result of this overcrowding of conference, that is what commissions do; they the prison system, and I ask: why has his recommend that staff should return to work. The Government so grossly mismanaged the department immediately contacted staff corrective services system? members. Commissioner Swan recommended Legislative Assembly 10431 17 November 1994

Mr W. K. GOSS: This morning, during my Opposition members want to know what we are regular morning meeting, we tossed around what doing in this area. would be the tactics of question time today, and Mr Lingard interjected. somebody said—— Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member Mr FitzGerald interjected. for Beaudesert under Standing Order 123A. Mr W. K. GOSS: The member will receive Mr W. K. GOSS: Opposition members a small introduction. Someone said, "The hot are entitled to a comprehensive answer. In issue is Oyster Point." Somebody else said, relation to the Corrective Services Commission, "The other hot issue is the CJC report on tow which relates to the very question that the trucks." So we knew that we would not get any member asked—in this Budget, funding for the questions on Oyster Point and tow trucks. I come commission has been increased by almost $46m in here and the Leader of the Liberal Party to $186m. The member wants to know what we bleats, "Question time is very important to the are doing. We are allocating that funding this year Opposition." So I give short, succinct answers. I in the Budget. We are doing it year in, year out, get asked, "What are you going to do to deal with whereas the member, when he was in the juvenile detention problem?", and I say, "We Government, never would. When the Opposition are going to build a new centre." I keep the member was Minister for Police and the Minister answers short so that the Opposition can—— for prisons, Queensland had the worst police-to- Mr Cooper: We're talking about population ratio, it had the worst prison overcrowding. system—— Mr W. K. GOSS: No, I am going to Mr Cooper: Who got the prison system respond to the request by the Leader of the reviewed? Liberal Party for a more comprehensive answer. I Mr W. K. GOSS: Jim Kennedy— want the Opposition to get in as many questions because the member could not do it. He did not as possible, because the time that I enjoy have the wit to know what to do, so he brought in Parliament most is question time because that is Jim Kennedy. when I get some of the action. Mr Cooper interjected. The Opposition is not happy with short answers. As Her Majesty's Opposition, it is Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member entitled to a comprehensive answer. Obviously, for Crows Nest under Standing Order 123A. the Opposition is concerned about prisons and Mr W. K. GOSS: I give the member for juvenile detention. The first point that I make to Crows Nest credit for realising that he did not the member for Crows Nest is this: the reason know what to do and for bringing in someone the prisons are bursting is that, compared with who did. when his party was in Government, we are This Government is continuing the reforms catching more and we are keeping—— started by that Kennedy report. Does the Mr LITTLEPROUD: I rise to a point of member want to know what we are doing this order. Mr Speaker, I would like clarification. Earlier year? That is the question he has asked. If the today you ruled a question out of order because member wants to listen, I will tell him. it was not based on fact. Surely, answers have to An Opposition member: Do you know? be based on fact. Mr W. K. GOSS: Yes, I know, and here it Mr SPEAKER: I find that point of order comes. This Budget increased—— frivolous in the extreme, and I warn the member for Western Downs under Standing Order 124 Mr Elliott interjected. for a frivolous point of order. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member Mr W. K. GOSS: That is what happens for Cunningham under Standing Order 123A. when a Labor Government comes along and Mr W. K. GOSS: It has increased funding puts an additional 1 500 operational police into from $46m to $186m. That increase includes the field. $7.3m to start on a new prison at Woodford in Mr Connor interjected. south-east Queensland, the provision of 318 more beds, the provision—— Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member for Nerang under Standing Order 123A. Mr Veivers interjected. Mr W. K. GOSS: Not only are we catching Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member more criminals, but when it comes to the real for Southport under Standing Order 123A. criminals, we are keeping them in for longer than Mr W. K. GOSS: It includes the provision the Opposition did when it was in Government. of 318 more beds in correctional centres and ongoing development and upgrading programs. 17 November 1994 10432 Legislative Assembly

The Capital Works Program in particular includes dynamic regions in the country, at least the Gold the Woodford prison expenditure to which I have Coast and the Sunshine Coast are getting referred, $9.3m to continue the redevelopment decent representation from the Opposition. of the Townsville Correctional Centre, $1.6m to In conclusion—and in response in particular carry out the Work Outreach Rehabilitation Camp to the member for Crows Nest and in further scheme upgrade and expansion program, $2.7m amplification, as requested by the Leader of the for the perimeter maintenance at Borallon Liberal Party—the $26m provided for the youth Correctional Centre, $1.4m for fire service detention centres is to provide for the following: upgrading and nearly $250,000 to trial new the closure of the Westbrook Youth Detention security equipment at the Sir David Longland Centre, Toowoomba, and the Sir Leslie Wilson Correctional Centre. As I said before, it also Youth Detention Centre, Windsor, by mid-1996; includes $24.6m for 318 new prison beds with upgrading of the Cleveland Youth Detention an extra $5.5m allocated for servicing the extra Centre, Townsville, and the John Oxley Youth bed spaces. That provides for $5.2m for the first Detention Centre; and, as I said before, the stage of the new cell accommodation at Borallon, construction of a new youth detention centre in $2.4m for new cells at the Arthur Gorrie close proximity to the John Oxley centre. Thank Correctional Centre, $1m for the Sir David you for listening. Longland Centre perimeter maintenance system, $11m for new cells at the Sir David Longland Correctional Centre and $5m for cells Law and Order at the Lotus Glen Correctional Centre. In Mr COOPER: Meanwhile, the chaos addition, $2.5m has been allocated for staff and continues. In directing a further question to the technological resources to allow the commission Premier, I refer to reported comments by the easier access to prisoner records and files. Police Minister that press reports of people I make this point—and the member should being terrorised by invaders in their own homes take this into account—under this Government, were just a media beat-up. I also refer to the the system of remissions that applied when his widespread condemnation of this view by the party was in Government has been abolished community, the media and rank-and-file and replaced by a two-part system of parole. In members of the police, and I ask: does the addition, a total of $1m has been allocated for a Premier support the view expressed by his new suicide prevention strategy. We are Police Minister and, if so, why are the police proposing video conferencing to be introduced instructing householders to ensure that they between the Arthur Gorrie Remand Centre and lock themselves in their own homes? the Magistrates Courts with an allocation of Mr W. K. GOSS: I think it is fair to say that $400,000 in this financial year. That will be all members of the Parliament, including myself important in terms of efficiency. It will reduce and the Minister for Police, share concern about prisoner movements and, therefore, enhance the rising level of crime, in particular violent crime, security. In addition, $800,000 has been in our community. That is something that is provided for the planning and implementation of happening right around Australia and that is why a range of education and training programs for conservative and Labor leaders are meeting in both offenders and Corrective Services officers. Melbourne next week to discuss how we can In conclusion, I make particular reference to improve the performance of the State Police the work being done in the youth detention Services in this regard and give the citizens of centre area. The Government has announced a this country a greater level of security in relation major reform of youth detention centre services, to their person and property. which were in an appalling state when we came We in Queensland have undertaken a wide into Government. range of measures to improve the situation. I Mr Mackenroth: Note that when you give have the details here. If the Opposition wants a comprehensive answer, the Deputy Leader them, it should just say so. goes. Opposition members interjected. Mr W. K. GOSS: That is right. Mrs Mr SPEAKER: Order! Sheldon, who was complaining about the shortness of the answer, left when the answer Mr W. K. GOSS: It is all right, Mr Speaker, was being given. I presume that she is back at relax. the Sunshine Coast. An Opposition member: That's getting She is now back from the Sunshine Coast. I a bit rough. can say one thing: when it comes to the most Mr W. K. GOSS: The honourable decentralised State in the country, when it member should relax, too. comes to the State that has the most number of Legislative Assembly 10433 17 November 1994

Mr FitzGerald: It's our question time, not all passengers on the Citytrain network use yours. Roma Street and Central Railways Stations each Mr W. K. GOSS: Because the Opposition day. We are not just seeking to achieve an makes so much noise, nobody can hear the increase in the number of services available to answers, which suggests that the Opposition is people. In fact, with the completion of this not really interested. The Opposition's tactic is to upgrade program in 1996, instead of 25 trains make as much noise as it possibly can. It has a operating per hour in either direction at peak in Year 3 strategy. People say that the Opposition the central city, there will be 45 trains in either has not yet learnt to become an alternative direction at peak in the city. Government; however, it has not yet learnt to be For those who wish to access the services, an Opposition. Being an alternative Government both Roma Street and Central Stations will be far is the next stage. The Opposition has a couple of more user friendly. Among the improvements will stages to go yet. be new platforms and moving footways for In relation to some of the attacks that have passengers. These will enable easy access for occurred on citizens in this State, that is a matter those who may have some physical disability, that concerns all of us, and it certainly concerns and for the mums and dads carrying infants or the Minister for Police and myself. I think we are parcels. Access to platforms will be effected by all aware of the fact that media around the world escalators and lifts. As well as that, improved find it more attractive in terms of ratings to security will be a feature of the upgrade. concentrate on stories that give good pictures For those members of the House who and on stories that involve human drama, tragedy recognise the heritage value that exists at Roma and conflict. And that will always be the way. I Street, I am pleased to report that the old Roma think there is sometimes a tendency to dwell on Street Railway Station, that part which dates back the more controversial and dramatic side of these to 1874, will be restored and integrated as a vital events. I think that tends to cloud the real issues part of the redevelopment at that place. and the things that are being done to deal with them, which do not receive so much coverage because they tend to be less dramatic and more Queensland Ports positive. Mr BEATTIE: I ask the Minister for Transport and Minister Assisting the Premier on Economic and Trade Development: can he clarify Rail Transport, Brisbane Central for the House recent claims by the member for Mr BEATTIE: I ask the Minister for Clayfield that Queensland's port costs were Transport and Minister Assisting the Premier on among the highest in the country? Economic and Trade Development: will he inform Mr HAMILL: Being a charitable person, I the House of details of the $33m upgrade of always try to render assistance when I can, even Brisbane's inner city rail stations within my to the member for Clayfield, who perhaps is a electorate of Brisbane Central? person who needs more assistance than most. I Mr HAMILL: Honourable members would was disturbed to hear the member for Clayfield be aware of the strong emphasis that this talking down the performance of the port of Government has given to the development of Brisbane. I was disturbed to hear him doing that, public transport as a part of our strategy to deal because I would have thought that, as a member with the enormous population growth that is of the Queensland Parliament, he would have occurring in south-east Queensland. One of the been very proud of the performance of the port critical projects to enable the Citytrain network to of Brisbane. Indeed, I thought that he would be accommodate the additional demand for rail echoing the sentiments that were published in traffic is the expansion of the inner city network. the editorial of yesterday's Courier-Mail, which Honourable members would be aware of the was extolling the performance of the port of work that has been undertaken to establish Brisbane under the heading "Port Grows". The additional capacity through rail tunnels between editorial stated that Brisbane is actually winning Roma Street through to Central and on to trade from the big two ports in Australia, Sydney Brunswick Street Railway Stations. Last Friday, I and Melbourne. It made the point that Brisbane announced the next part of that expansion has the lowest ship-based charges of all three, program, which is the redevelopment of the having dropped all port authority charges on Roma Street and Central Railway Stations. Some ships. $33m of that total of $142m is being invested in Just maybe the member for Clayfield is a bit that Citytrain expansion. of a chip off the old Liberal block in that part of The significance of the program can best be the city. The member for Clayfield used to be the understood when one realises that about half of member for Merthyr. I remember that a former 17 November 1994 10434 Legislative Assembly member for Merthyr had similar difficulty when performance indicators of the waterfront in 1993. looking at financial management issues. I If the member reads that report, he will see very remember that that former member for Merthyr clearly that the port of Brisbane leads Australia in was at one time the Minister for Transport—the reducing the costs to ship users and importers Honourable Don Lane. That was when he was and exporters through keeping its port charges still a Liberal. I remember that Mr Lane used to and the total cost of handling cargo below the talk about railway profits but not worry about rate of any other capital city port in Australia. having to pay the interest bill in relation to the financial accounts of the railways. Consequently, the accounts always showed a profit because Mr Watch-house Overcrowding, Townsville Lane never included all the costs. The member Mr SANTORO: Glandular fever really does for Clayfield is a chip off the old block. He talks have some adverse effects! about wharfage costs in Brisbane being much Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will higher than those of other ports. withdraw that comment. Mr Santoro: It's true. Mr SANTORO: In due reference to the Mr HAMILL: To the extent that that is a fair ruling of the Chair, I withdraw. In directing a assessment of the costs of using the port of question to the Honourable the Premier, I refer Brisbane, maybe that is true, but any fair and to the comments of Townsville District reasonable person—even, I suggest, the Superintendent Warren Hansen that insufficient member for Clayfield—— accommodation in the State's gaols is behind the fact that prisoners are being held in the Mr Santoro interjected. Townsville watch-house for up to 25 days, the Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the member superintendent's comments being simply the for Clayfield under Standing Order 123A. latest symptom of the chronic mismanagement by the Premier and his Government of the Mr HAMILL: —ought to recognise that, Corrective Services system, and I ask the whereas southern ports put heavy charges on Premier: as Premier of the State, does he accept shipping costs, the port of Brisbane has ultimate responsibility for the totally incompetent abolished its ship-based charges. Even the planning of the Corrective Services capital works member for Clayfield ought to be big enough to program, as manifested by this fellow's claims? acknowledge that when one is dealing with the costs of handling cargo it is not just one particular Mr W. K. GOSS: The factual basis of the charge that is relevant but the whole range of member's question is simply flawed; it is simply charges that impact upon the handling of missing. There is no factual basis to the particular cargo. question. The situation in relation to prison planning and the allocation of additional places I suppose the member for Clayfield took and additional positions is set out some solace from the New South Wales comprehensively in the Budget papers and was competitiveness report—a self-serving little outlined by me to the member for Crows Nest report which looked at the Sydney port authority. just a few moments ago. The member for Of course, the Sydney port authority puts its Clayfield should have listened. charges on ships and not on the wharves. Consequently, the member for Clayfield did not worry too much when he looked at the definition Prisoner Numbers of wharfage costs in that report, which purported Mr SANTORO: In directing a second to be the total costs of handling a container but question to the Premier, I refer to comments by did not include navigational services, wharfage, the Police Minister during the Estimates debates conservancy, pilotage and so on. that Queensland's prison population was Mr De Lacy: He's probably been briefed declining and to comments by a spokesman for by Mrs Sheldon. the Minister this week that there has been a 25 per cent increase in the number of prisoners. I Mr HAMILL: I think they come from the ask the Premier: on the assumption that the same school of economics—the Liberal Party comments of the Minister and those of his financial misunderstanding school of economic adviser are not flawed, how has the Government management. made such a comprehensive misjudgment and I suggest that before the member for botch-up in relation to the Corrective Services Clayfield goes out and embarrasses himself even system? more and before he goes out and talks down the Mr W. K. GOSS: We quite simply have performance of Queensland ports even more, he should have a look at the Bureau of Industry Economics report on the international Legislative Assembly 10435 17 November 1994 not, and I refer the member to the very performance. As I said, there will be five officers comprehensive answer that I gave to the from that squad assigned to the island on those member for Crows Nest. particular days. This is a sensible reaction. At a Mr Santoro: But this is what your Minister time of increased population, we are assigning said. extra police. We will continue to monitor that assignation and ensure that we have police in Mr W. K. GOSS: Then I suggest that the place where they are needed. member ask him.

Tree Planting Initiatives Police Numbers, North Stradbroke Island Mr BRISKEY: I ask the Minister for Primary Industries: will he advise the House on any new Mr BRISKEY: I direct a question to the initiatives in his department that are designed to Minister for Police and Minister for Corrective encourage the planting of trees to not only meet Services. North Stradbroke Island receives a projected future timber needs but also assist in healthy boost in its population in holiday times, the management of our national resources? and most especially at Christmas time. I ask: could the Minister advise what measures the Mr CASEY: That is a very good question. police have in place to deal with this influx of This issue should be of interest to all members. I people? am pleased to inform all of my colleagues that, in order to facilitate public consultation, earlier this Mr BRADDY: It is certainly a facet of month I released a policy options paper prepared modern policing and modern approaches to law by the Queensland Forest Service on tree enforcement that we take action where it is planting for production and natural resources necessary. We are aware that over the Christmas management. The paper encourages the private period there is a dramatic population increase on sector, especially private land-holders, to grow North Stradbroke Island. The usual population plantations of trees for wood production. levels can increase from about 3 000 to over 10 000. For this reason, the police presence on Mr FitzGerald: Mangroves at Oyster the island will be significantly increased at peak Point? times above the four officers who are Mr CASEY: If the honourable member permanently based there. wants some advice on the planting of During Schoolies Week, from 18 November mangroves, I can certainly provide it to him. He to 27 November, there will be one extra officer takes the green beans off the trees; he waits permanently at Dunwich Police Station from the until the tide goes out; and he goes out on a Wynnum Juvenile Aid Bureau. Police from the mud flat and uses a podgy stick to plant those Cleveland Juvenile Aid Bureau, the Wynnum beans. However, the member should not plant district traffic branch and the crime car will visit the beans in orderly rows; he should plant them North Stradbroke Island on a daily basis during in clusters, because that is how they usually that week. So there will be one extra permanent grow. One other thing: the member should not officer there, and police from each of those three forget to come ashore when the tide comes in. squads will also be visiting the island. On a more serious note—by the year 2030, Mr Cooper: Do you know how many police Queensland faces a shortfall of sawlogs, are really there? principally of hardwood species, of approximately 340 000 cubic metres annually. The policy Mr BRADDY: No doubt members options paper which I have released provides an opposite will once again misconstrue what I have opportunity to address this shortfall by growing said, as they have this morning in relation to plantations of rainforest and eucalypt species on several other matters. Members opposite can private property in Queensland, thereby never tell the truth. They are the masters of half- providing for future timber needs in a fully truth. The Leader of the Opposition is the best at responsible and environmentally sustainable that, and the member for Crows Nest comes in way. It also provides the opportunity to grow second. those trees to protect and restore valuable To cater for the additional people expected agricultural and grazing lands from degradation, on the island for new year celebrations, five thus lessening the impacts of soil erosion, members of the Public Safety Response Team salinity and water quality. will be assigned for New Year's Eve and New The current value of sawlog timber in Year's Day, which are very important periods in Queensland to this date is $1.3 billion, and the terms of law enforcement. That is a very well- value of the hardwood component of this is trained squad of police officers who are highly about $500m. Therefore, this policy options disciplined and capable of very high paper is a very good one for the future. It 17 November 1994 10436 Legislative Assembly canvasses all those current and existing had her head rammed against a wall by female schemes such as Treecare, the Community inmates. I believe that, to date, no action has Rainforest Rehabilitation Program, the Mary River been taken against these perpetrators. Staff Catchment and the North Coast Farm Forestry members complain that this is a common Programs. It will enhance those community occurrence. I ask: does the Premier support programs very well. The options it has put such apparent leniency and disregard for staff forward will remove barriers to investment in tree safety? planting as well as put increased emphasis on Mr W. K. GOSS: I am not aware of the research and development. details of the incident to which the member An industry based on privately managed refers. I understand that the Minister has already plantations of rainforests and eucalypt in the provided an answer in relation to it, and I refer him future will stimulate economic, regional and social to that. I will take the matter up with the Minister development in Queensland. This has already and have her communicate with the member in been shown and proven by the work that we are relation to the detail of the incident to which he doing and the acceptance of the Community has referred. Rainforest Rehabilitation Program in north Queensland. Effect of Environmental Protection Act Finally, let me tell this House that the Goss on Business Government is committed to encouraging private tree planting for production and natural Mrs ROSE: I ask the Minister for Business, resources benefits, and it is a signatory to the Industry and Regional Development: can he national forest policy statement on this matter. advise how the introduction of the Environmental Protection Act will affect business? Discipline in Government Juvenile Mr ELDER: The honourable member is Detention Centres concerned both about the protection of the Mr LITTLEPROUD: In directing a environment and the development of business question to the Premier, I refer to a riot at the within her electorate. Under this Government, John Oxley Juvenile Detention Centre earlier the two work hand in hand. We have continually this year during which the manager of the centre, and now clearly indicated our concerns about Miss Janice Doyle, offered the rioters an evening polluters in the business community. I have read treat of pizza and coke and a picnic the next day if Opposition members' contributions to the they stopped rioting. The riot stopped and the debates over the last two nights. When the promise was duly honoured, but the same National Party was in Government, how many inmates rioted again two days later. The logical prosecutions were there when it came to deduction is that the inmates have developed a conservation of the environment? When in taste and liking for pizza, coke and bushwalking. I Government, the Opposition had a score that ask the Premier whether he supports his Minister reminded me of Jim Higgs' batting average. and her type of reward-based discipline There were 12 prosecutions in 23 years, and the operating in the Government's detention biggest fine was $500. I am sure that, during the centres. time the National Party was in Government, that Mr W. K. GOSS: I do not mind a bit of went a long way towards deterring people from pizza, coke and bushwalking myself. polluting. Mr FitzGerald: They'll give you plenty of it The facts of the matter are that industry out there; all you've got to do is put on a riot. recognises clearly the benefits of a clean environment and that a clean environment is in Mr W. K. GOSS: No, the message is, the best interests of industry. On many "Stay out of trouble, stay out of gaol and you can occasions, industry has actually articulated that to get it every night." both me and the Minister for Environment. Industry wishes to deal with the cowboys in its Assaults at Sir Leslie Wilson Youth own industry sectors—it wants to crack down on Detention Centre those cowboys just as hard as we do. Mr LITTLEPROUD: In directing a One of the advantages of having that clean question to the Premier, I refer to the environment is, as honourable members on the disturbance at the Sir Leslie Wilson Youth other side of the House would understand, is the Detention Centre on Monday, 7 November, in improvement in our reputation as export earners which one female staff member was reportedly in the food industry. If we have these held down by female inmates who held a broken environmental measures in place, if we have the glass at her throat and another female officer who reputation of a clean environment, if we have the Legislative Assembly 10437 17 November 1994

EPA that actually dictates that position, then because that is based on the licence structure obviously in that industry sector we are going to that was put in place. Six thousand business will be far more competitive out there. A good pay the licence fee. That is not one in two example has been the commitment from a businesses. For the member's information and to number of Taiwanese businesses that have calm his confused mind, I point out that that is heavily invested in the oyster industry on one business in 26. Stradbroke Island. They have concerns about pollution and pollution control within their own An Opposition member interjected. country—they see it as being untenable in the Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Minister is near future. Now, of course, they are looking at starting to debate the question. the opportunities in Queensland. What we are doing with the EPA is also indicating to them that Mr ELDER: I will conclude on this note. I we are concerned. The economic benefits that have an easier question. Who designed the this will bring to Queensland are incumbent in licence structure to put this in place? Who has one sense on what we are doing in terms of been negotiating this through? It is the actually controlling those polluters and dealing Queensland Chamber of Commerce and with them. Industry—— I must say that I have been a bit peeved by Mr FITZGERALD: Mr Speaker, the the approach of the Opposition, particularly the answer to the first question asked is that it will hypocritical approach from the Opposition impact on every ratepayer in Queensland who is Environment spokesman who, a few months ago going to be slugged by the local authorities. That when we were copping it in the neck, was out is the answer to the first question asked. If the courting the Greens about us not being tough Minister comes up with his second question, we and not enforcing legislation. He said that we will answer it, but maybe some of us want it on could have all the legislation in the world, but it notice. would not matter how tough it was unless we were out there enforcing it. Well, we are doing Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will just that. Months ago, he was criticising us for not resume his seat. Can I suggest that the Minister taking that action. The Minister for Environment does not ask any more questions. I am going to is now out there with the blueprint—we are doing have trouble here. If the Minister asks questions just that. and the Opposition answer them, I will not know All the member does is trip across the State. what to do. One moment he is up there in the north, Indiana Mr ELDER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I did Slack with the Temptress of Doom, wandering not know the member was in line for the Wheel of through the north. It is a trilogy. The next Fortune, but I will bear that in mind when they are moment he is up there, Indiana Slack and looking for candidates. Raiders of the Lost Park. Now it is Indiana Slack in the Last Crusade. He can never be satisfied. In terms of designing that licence structure What is his next venture? in Queensland, it was the Queensland Chamber Mr Connor interjected. of Commerce and Industry, the Metal Trades Industry Association—get this—the Local Mr ELDER: As for the member for Nerang, Government Association of Queensland and, of let me just correct a couple of matters that he has course, the Brisbane City Council. They were raised. The other day in the debate he said that those within the industry and Government this will cost every—— sectors that worked with us in terms of setting Mr SPEAKER: Order! I advise the Minister that licence structure in place. In terms of that he cannot refer to a debate currently before implementing a cost effective monitoring the House. process under the EPA, the impact is $70m in Mr ELDER: Mr Speaker, I accept your New South Wales, $25m in Victoria and $15m in ruling. The member for Nerang has, on many Queensland. occasions, said that this will impact on every second business in the State. That is untrue. I have a question for the member. How many Passenger Transport, Sunshine Coast businesses are there in Queensland? Mrs ROSE: I ask the Minister for Transport Mr Connor: I'm not here to answer and Minister assisting the Premier on Economic questions. and Trade Development: is he aware of recent media reports in which the member for Mr ELDER: To enlighten the member, Mooloolah was reported as having called for there are 160 000 businesses in Queensland. immediate action regarding passenger transport How many businesses will this impact on—6 000, reforms on the Sunshine Coast? If so, would the 17 November 1994 10438 Legislative Assembly

Minister outline what the Government is doing with regard to passenger transport? First Reading Mr HAMILL: I am aware of the press Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and reports referred to by the honourable member. I Bill, on motion of Mr Mackenroth, read a first time. am also very much aware of the strong support the honourable member has given the progress of the passenger transport reform program on Second Reading the Gold Coast, where we have similar problems Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH to those that are being experienced on the (Chatsworth—Minister for Housing, Local Sunshine Coast where, for many years, the Government and Planning) (11.14 a.m.): I population growth has outstripped the capacity move— of local operators to provide decent passenger services to those suburbs. "That the Bill be now read a second time." However, I am absolutely dumbfounded to see the sort of agitation not only from the The Residential Tenancies Bill 1994 repeals member for Mooloolah but from the member for the existing Residential Tenancies Act and the Caloundra, who has been running around saying Rental Bond Act. In their place, this Bill that the Government has been doing nothing introduces a new and fairer legislative base about public transport. Indeed, the member for governing the relationship between lessors and Caloundra has accused the State Government of tenants. In introducing the legislation, I would like failing to regard public opinion in relation to the to thank the member for Everton, Mr Rod provision of public transport. Nothing could be Welford, who chaired the Residential Tenancies further from the truth. For two years, we have Law Review Committee. This committee been conducting an extensive public included broad representation from property consultation program. The results of that owners, the real estate industry and tenant program were referred to in this House and representatives. Their comprehensive supported by the Opposition in the legislation consultations culminated in two reports on that we passed recently. residential tenancies law reform in Queensland. In order that the public is fully aware of what It is important to appreciate the context in is happening, my department has produced for which this Bill has been drafted. Australian the information of the general public a brochure Bureau of Statistics data indicates that outlining the reforms. I am pleased to say that Queensland has one of the highest rates of members from both sides of the House have households in rented accommodation. Twenty- recognised the value of this document. For two percent of Queensland households rent in example, I am pleased that the member for the private rental market. In the public housing Indooroopilly recognises that he was wrong in sector, my department has more than 46 000 this House when he was criticising the reforms. tenants. At the end of June this year, there were He has already taken a number of copies of this over 220 000 bonds from private sector tenants document to distribute in his electorate. I lodged with the Rental Bond Authority. There welcome requests from any members of the are, of course, many other people in House— Government or Opposition—to use this Queensland who rent their homes, including document, because it shows quite clearly that those in caravan parks. this Government is committed to improving The importance of caravan parks as a place passenger transport services. It is there for all to live for many Queenslanders is shown by the members to learn from. fact that approximately 35 per cent of Australia’s Mr SPEAKER: Order! The time for caravan park residents live in Queensland questions has now expired. caravan parks. There is also a large number of Queenslanders who own property and rent it to others. In every town and suburb in Queensland RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES BILL there are estate agents who rely on the Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH management of rental property for a large part of (Chatsworth—Minister for Housing, Local their income. It is therefore obvious that the Government and Planning) (11.13 a.m.), by quality of housing for a large number of leave, without notice: I move— Queenslanders is directly affected by the quality "That leave be granted to bring in a Bill of laws governing the right to occupy their for an Act about residential tenancy homes. Tenants should have the right of agreements, and related matters." peaceful occupation of the place they rent, and lessors should have the right to a fair return on Motion agreed to. their investment. From the outset, the Government has ensured that the tenancy law Legislative Assembly 10439 17 November 1994 reform brings a balance to the relationship somebody else with the consent of the lessor. between lessors and tenants. This provision is logically inappropriate in a public The present Residential Tenancies Act was housing context where eligibility for housing is introduced in 1975. It has attracted much based on different factors. criticism from all sides. The main criticisms relate Both sides of the House will agree that the to two principal concerns— Rental Bond Authority has brought a measure of firstly, the Act fails to address stability to at least one aspect of the relationship comprehensively the many issues which between tenants and lessors. The authority was frequently confront tenants and lessors in established in 1989, and the present modern tenancies; and Government has amended the authority’s legislation to improve its effectiveness and secondly, the existing mechanisms for operational coverage. With the passage of this resolving differences or disputes between legislation, the Rental Bond Authority will be parties to tenancy agreements are absorbed within a new Residential Tenancies inefficient, cumbersome, complex and Authority. The Government decided to build inaccessible. upon an existing and recognised base for the The existing Act says nothing, or very little, new arrangements. about many of the important day-to-day issues in The new authority will have an expanded residential tenancies—things like the advisory service catering for the first time in replacement of locks and keys, what to do when Queensland to tenants and lessors alike. the premises are damaged, or how abandoned Importantly, the authority will also be responsible goods are to be dealt with. The relationship for setting up and managing a process for the between caravan park owners and residents is mediation of disputes between lessors and currently in a legal no-man's-land. tenants. The authority will use the services of Most importantly, the current treatment of accredited mediators to help the parties involved disputes between lessors and tenants causes in a dispute resolve their differences without particular problems because it splits jurisdiction having to go through an expensive and time- between the Magistrates Court and the Small consuming legal process. Claims Tribunal. The existing law is widely Disputes that are not able to be settled considered to deprive tenants and lessors of a through mediation or that fall within the category clear view on their respective rights and of urgent matters will be heard in the Small Claims obligations, and of an effective forum in which to Tribunal. Presently, residential tenancies fairly resolve disputes. The new residential jurisdiction is split between the Small Claims tenancies legislation is designed to redress the Tribunal and the Magistrates Courts. This Bill shortcomings of the old Act and introduce a resolves that duplication, with the tribunal having balance in the relationship between tenants and sole jurisdiction. Some matters will be able to lessors. The new legislation is intended to have proceed directly to the tribunal without having to broad application in the rental market, providing a be mediated. For example, if a tenant simply scheme which applies to all residential tenancy stops paying the rent, the lessor or agent will be agreements. These agreements are defined as able to take the appropriate steps by applying to an agreement between persons for the letting of the tribunal to end the tenancy within 28 days, premises. A definition of a dwelling is also set which is the same period covered by the usual out. rental bond. There will be some exclusions from the Act, I now turn briefly to some of the detailed such as holiday premises, educational provisions of the Bill. The legislation prescribes institutions and hospitals. Retirement villages, that all tenancy agreements must be in writing, hotels and motels are included within the Act, with the onus on the lessor to provide a written but only to the extent that genuine tenancies agreement. This gives protection to both parties, exist. I have already indicated that caravan park so neither can claim ignorance of what they were owners and residents will have the protection of getting themselves into. the Act. Boarders and lodgers are not at this stage included, except in so far as they may In recognition of the importance that lodge a rental bond. I have asked my department Queenslanders place on their safety and to carry out detailed analysis of the boarding security, the legislation will establish that lessors house sector to see whether they might be have a duty to supply and maintain locks and included in the future. security devices that are fitted to the premises. Neither party may alter such devices without the The State Government will be bound by the agreement of the other party, provided that such legislation, except for certain provisions, such as agreement is not unreasonably withheld and that the right of a tenant to sublease the premises to both parties have copies of the new keys. When 17 November 1994 10440 Legislative Assembly a tenant quits a premises and leaves goods or the tenant wishes to organise repairs in an other personal property behind, a lessor under emergency then they must first contact the the current law is unsure how to act. There is lessor or the nominated repairer. If the tenant uncertainty over respective responsibilities and cannot contact either, then the tenant may the common law does not adequately deal with it. engage a qualified person to carry out the repairs Also, the common law does not adequately to a value equivalent to two weeks' rent. address the privacy concerns should personal The Bill makes it clear that a tenant may and private documents be left behind by tenants only assign or sublet the premises with the and be improperly used by lessors. This consent of a lessor. Where a tenancy is for a legislation provides clear and simple steps that fixed term the lessor’s consent may not be should be taken. The provisions protect the withheld unreasonably. The Bill recognises that interests of the tenant as well as the lessor. The there are occasions when either party to an provisions are similar to and based on section 24 agreement may wish to terminate the tenancy. of the legislation from the Province of Alberta, The Government has developed procedures that Canada. This has simplified methods to deal with treat both parties fairly in these circumstances. abandoned properties. The Bill places less A lessor will be able to terminate a periodic onerous requirements on lessors than those in tenancy without cause by giving two months' the Alberta legislation and is considered to be a notice. During a fixed term tenancy, the lessor reasonable compromise. will be able to terminate it on the following grounds: In dealing with a tenant’s abandoned goods, lessors may sell or dispose of them if— non payment of rent a breach of the lease the lessor believes on reasonable grounds that the value of the goods is less than serious damage $1,000; or hardship to the lessor, such as the need to if the cost of removing, storing for the period have the premises for own or family’s use prescribed by regulation and selling the sale of the premises goods would be more than the proceeds of demolition sale of those goods; or abandonment by the tenant if the storage of the goods is unhealthy or termination of employment where the unsafe; or premises is part of the employment if the storage of goods would cause the package market value of the goods to be wholly or failure to comply with an order of the substantially depreciated. tribunal in relation to the tenancy Lessors are able to dispose of goods that are failure to vacate if a notice to vacate was stored if they have not been reclaimed at the end given by the tenant but then not followed of a prescribed period. through. I seek leave to have the remainder of the I have already indicated that the lessor will provisions relating to this incorporated in be able to go through steps to evict the tenant in Hansard. 28 days for failure to pay rent. Leave granted. In the case of other breaches, the Bill allows the tenant to remedy a breach on notice The legislation will prescribe the within seven days. If the tenant fails to remedy circumstances of the lessor’s right of entry for the breach, the lessor may serve a notice to quit purposes such as inspection or to undertake with 12 days' notice. The lessor may then apply repairs. Right of entry requires the consent of to the tribunal for the termination of the tenancy the tenant except in cases of emergency or and an order of possession. In the case of damage to the premises. A day’s notice is serious damage or injury, hardship or required in most cases with the exception of objectionable behaviour, the lessor may apply to notice to inspect the premises, which requires the tribunal for an immediate termination order seven days' notice. The legislation will require without first serving notices on the tenant. It is the lessor to provide the premises in a the tenant’s right to dispute a notice by the reasonable state of repair at the beginning of the lessor. tenancy and the tenant to keep them in that state, to keep them clean, not to cause any The tenant may apply to the residential damage and to inform the lessor of any damage tenancies authority on payment of a small fee to that does occur. A lessor may nominate a set up a mediation session to try to resolve the repairer who is authorised to organise repairs. If issue. This has been found in other States which Legislative Assembly 10441 17 November 1994

have a mediation system to result in the Mr Speaker, there is a range of other satisfactory settlement of the great majority of provisions in the Bill, many of them related to disputes without eviction action or having to go procedural matters. The relationship between a through the formal court system. The Act allows tenant and a lessor is a complex one, and that is a tenant to terminate a fixed term or periodic perhaps reflected in the size of the Bill. Members agreement for: will also note that the Bill incorporates both the breach of the agreement by the lessor old Rental Bond Act as well as general provisions related to tenancies. The wide coverage of the hardship Bill also reflects the Government’s determination damage or injury to strike a balance between the interests of objectionable behaviour lessors and tenants. In a very real sense, what is good for one party in a residential tenancy is failure to comply with a tribunal order, and also good for the other. frustration of tenancy. The explanation I have given of the new In the case of breach by the lessor, the provisions in the Bill is not exhaustive. However, tenant may serve a notice to remedy the breach the major reforms in the legislation have been within 7 days. If the breach is not remedied the covered. The proposed reforms have been tenant may terminate the lease after a further 7 subject to wide consultation with the key players days. However, a lessor has the right to in the lessor and tenant relationship. I believe subsequently seek compensation from the there is strong support for the direction we have tenant if the grounds of the termination are found taken. Lessor and tenant groups alike have to be unjustified. I should point out that the indicated their endorsement for the direction lessor has the same right as the tenant to apply taken in the legislation. No doubt there will still be to have a dispute mediated. some people who argue there is not enough, or This Bill takes into account the special too much legislative protection for the tenants. circumstances of disputes where both parties There will also be others who argue for more, or are of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander less, legislative protection for the lessor. descent. The Bill proposes that the tribunal will The Government’s aim: be entitled to receive evidence as to an observance of an Aboriginal and Torres Strait is to have fair and balanced legislation on Islander tradition, custom or practice for a residential tenancies for Queenslanders particular community. This aspect of the Bill that recognise the competing views of ensures the tribunal would be entitled to find a tenants and lessors and balances those termination of a tenancy invalid, where a lessor interests; attempts to terminate a tenancy on the grounds that comprehensively addresses the many that the tenant observed a customary practice issues which frequently confront tenants that had previously been accepted by the lessor. and lessors in modern tenancies; The principles of the violence against women strategy have also been included in this and that provides a low cost and Bill. For example, a spouse will be able to apply accessible dispute resolution process. for the transfer of a tenancy in cases where the I believe this most important piece of legislation other spouse has committed an act of domestic delivers these aims. violence. The Bill requires that charges paid by tenants are limited to rent and bond only. Holding I commend the Bill to the House. deposits may be paid by prospective tenants Debate, on motion of Mr FitzGerald, and may become part of the bond where a adjourned. tenancy is commenced. This deposit may be STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS AND forfeited where the tenant notifies intent but fails LEGISLATIVE STANDARDS to occupy. The obligation to pay rent in advance AMENDMENT BILL is limited to two weeks in a caravan or for periodic tenancies and one month for fixed term Hon. W. K. GOSS (Logan—Premier, tenancies. Minister for Economic and Trade Development) (11.24 a.m.), by leave, without notice: I move— The Bill prohibits practices such as lessors applying monetary penalties for breaches of the "That leave be granted to bring in a Bill tenancy by tenants. On the other hand, the for an Act to amend the Statutory tenant may not withhold rent for breaches of the Instruments Act 1992, Legislative tenancy by lessors. I have already described the Standards Act 1992 and Acts Interpretation process in resolving such breaches which are Act 1954, and for related purposes." subject to penalties. Motion agreed to. 17 November 1994 10442 Legislative Assembly

The regulatory impact statement, or RIS, First Reading must clearly identify the policy objectives behind the proposed regulation. It must also contain an Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and assessment of the economic, social and Bill, on motion of Mr W. K. Goss, read a first time. environmental benefits and costs of implementing the proposed regulation. Further, Second Reading it must identify why a legislative rather than an administrative approach is necessary for Hon. W. K. GOSS (Logan—Premier, achieving the policy objectives. This will help to Minister for Economic and Trade Development) ensure that any regulation which imposes (11.25 a.m.): I move— substantial costs on business or the community "That the Bill be now read a second is justified in terms of its assessed benefits. time." The RIS must also outline the consistency I am pleased to introduce the Statutory of the proposed regulation with other legislation Instruments and Legislative Standards and also with fundamental legislative principles Amendment Bill 1994. The Bill forms part of the concerning the protection of rights and liberties. major and ongoing program of reforms to public Once the RIS has been prepared, the Bill administration in Queensland, which this requires that public notice be given of its Government has overseen since the report of existence and where copies can be obtained. the Fitzgerald commission of inquiry. One of the This notice must be published in the Gazette and issues raised by the Fitzgerald inquiry was the in a newspaper likely to be read by people who capacity of the Parliament to scrutinise the may be affected by the legislation. The notice actions and legislative proposals of the must be published in a way likely to ensure that Government. In their reports on Review of members of particular groups affected by the Parliamentary Committees, EARC and the proposal understand the purpose and content of Parliamentary Committee for Electoral and the notice. This will ensure that groups likely to Administrative Review recommended the be affected by the legislation and who for one adoption of new procedures to ensure greater reason or another do not have access to a transparency and accountability in the making of newspaper are made aware of the proposal to regulations and other subordinate legislation. make the regulation. A minimum period of 28 The Government agrees that the new days will be allowed for people to make procedures should be introduced. comments on the RIS before the proposed The Bill before the House contains a regulation is finalised. package of reforms that will substantially affect Certain regulations and other subordinate the way regulations and other subordinate legislation are exempted from the requirement to legislation are developed and considered. They produce an RIS. Generally, these are where the will ensure greater transparency in the decision- regulation is concerned with technical, making process, encourage greater community administrative or machinery matters that do not input in the making of new regulations and impose substantial costs on the community. An improve the capacity of Parliament to assess the exemption is also made for regulations made impacts and effects of regulations made by the under national uniform or complementary Government. legislation. The reform package has three elements. It is estimated that the proposed RIS First, the introduction of regulatory impact procedures will affect about 10 to 15 per cent of statements for significant subordinate legislation. subordinate legislation made each year. The Second, substantial improvement to the present majority of instruments will not be affected as system of Explanatory Notes for legislation. these do not impose substantial costs on the Third, a continuation of the current program of community. As over 500 instruments are made in regulatory review, but with significant changes to the course of the year, it would be improve its effectiveness. administratively intolerable and unnecessary to The first of these measures will substantially produce an RIS for all of them. By focusing on enhance the transparency of the decision- significant instruments, the Bill will ensure that making process for new regulations. This will be the more significant regulations affecting the achieved through the adoption of regulatory community are identified and subject to a quality impact statements. The Bill requires that review process. whenever the Government proposes to make a In anticipation of the new requirements, regulation likely to impose appreciable costs on policy officers in departments are being trained in the community or part of the community a effective cost benefit analysis techniques and in regulatory impact statement must be prepared. the preparation of regulatory impact statements. Legislative Assembly 10443 17 November 1994

The second part of the reform package is In its place, the Bill inserts new provisions for designed to improve the quality of information regulatory review in the Statutory Instruments given to the Parliament and new legislation. The Act. The new provisions require that all Bill requires Explanatory Notes to be prepared regulations and other subordinate legislation for all Bills and for all significant subordinate expire automatically on their tenth anniversary. legislation. Explanatory Notes for Bills are already Expiry after 10 years was recommended by the required under administrative guidelines parliamentary committee as a more practical approved by this Government. However, the approach than seven years. The Government Government has agreed with EARC that this agrees with this. requirement should appropriately be contained However, the main feature of the new in an Act of Parliament. provisions is that there are almost no exceptions The Bill before the House provides that to the expiry requirements. A regulation can only Explanatory Notes must be prepared for all Bills. be exempted once, for a period of not more than These notes must state the Bill's policy one year, and only if the regulation meets certain objectives, why the legislation is necessary, the criteria. These are: effect of the Bill on legal and civil rights, the extent of the consultation undertaken in where a replacement regulation will be made developing the Bill, and the costs of before the end of the extended period; or implementation. where the regulation will not be replaced at The Bill also requires that Explanatory Notes the end of the expiry period. be prepared for all significant subordinate The only exception to this rule is regulations legislation, that is, all regulations and other made under uniform legislation. Such instruments for which an RIS has been prepared. regulations can be exempted from expiry but In addition to addressing matters covered in the only for periods of up to five years. Explanatory Notes for Bills, the notes for subordinate legislation must also address the This Bill signals the Government's results of public feedback on the RIS. The continuing commitment to best practice in public Explanatory Note and the RIS must be tabled administration, to greater openness in decision together with the subordinate legislation. making and to further implementation of the Fitzgerald reform agenda. I commend the Bill to The third element in the Bill is to provide for the House. the ongoing review of regulations through a statutory expiry program. The previous Debate, on motion of Mr Borbidge, Government introduced the Regulatory Reform adjourned. Act 1986 following a recommendation of the Savage Review of Business Regulations. The PUBLIC SECTOR ETHICS BILL aim was to introduce an Act that would automatically expire regulations on their seventh Second Reading anniversary. It was hoped that this would force Debate resumed from 19 October (see departments to review the regulations before p. 9687). their expiry to see whether they should be Mr BORBIDGE (Surfers Paradise— remade, revised or discontinued—having regard Leader of the Opposition) (11.32 a.m.): In to the need to reduce unnecessary regulatory speaking to the Public Sector Ethics Bill, I say burdens on the business community. firstly that if there is one trademark which However, the Act introduced by the distinguishes this Government, it is its ability to previous Government contained so many promise one thing but to deliver another. In the loopholes and exemptions that scores of case of this legislation, the Premier has waxed regulations were blithely exempted from the lyrical about the need to develop an ethical review process. This completely undermined the public culture in Queensland's administration. whole process and in a very short period the Act That ideal is not exclusive to his side of politics became something of a white elephant. because such a course was well established before the current Government came to power. This Government found it necessary to The issue of public sector ethics was caught up establish its own systematic review of regulations in the Fitzgerald reform process and the affecting business. This review had to be outcome of that is before us today. undertaken largely outside the framework of the Regulatory Reform Act. In light of EARC's However, before I proceed further, I want to recommendations and those of the parliamentary take a little time to point out—indeed, to committee, the Bill before the House repeals the highlight—the hypocrisy of this Goss Regulatory Reform Act, which, in any case, was Government. On the one hand, this is a due for expiry at the end of this year. Government that talks about the need for 17 November 1994 10444 Legislative Assembly scrupulous public sector ethics, yet on the other ethics regime. As this House will recall, EARC sets about politicising the public service with a reported on codes of conduct for public officials vengeance. This is a Government that, when it in May 1992, the parliamentary committee came to power, swept away experienced, handed in its report in May 1993, and 18 months professional public servants who were steeped later, October 1994, the Government introduced in the best Westminster standards, replacing the legislation. them with academic theorists—— One of the functions designated to the Mr T. B. Sullivan: Your mob had the Electoral and Administrative Review Commission most politicised public service in Australia, and in the report of a commission of inquiry was the you know it. formulation of codes of conduct for public Mr BORBIDGE: Like the honourable officials. The report states— member who is interjecting, they hankered to get "Codes of conduct for public officials, their hands on the levers of public sector reform. already partially developed by the present If the member wants to participate in the debate, Government, must be extended to deal he can come right in. satisfactorily with such important things as Mr Cooper interjected. the correct relationship between such people as public servants and their Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Palaszczuk): Ministers. Order! The member for Crows Nest will withdraw that remark. Ethical education must also play a role in long-term solutions to problems. Such Mr COOPER: What remark? education would help individuals to find the Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: The correct balance between competing honourable member knows the remark to which I considerations, and should help groups of am referring. employees to establish a supportive Mr COOPER: I said, "Is he on the list?" atmosphere within which it would be harder for corruption to flourish." Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: "Lunatic". The commission implied that there were Mr COOPER: I withdraw, Mr Deputy weaknesses in the present code and, by Speaker. referring it to EARC, gave the green light for its Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. examination. Since then, there has been a focus The member for Chermside will cease on codes of conduct via an EARC issues paper interjecting. and report, seminars, the parliamentary Mr BORBIDGE: To the Government, it committee report, draft Bills and now the was all like a big experiment—a big university legislation before the House. prac. In its quest for a new look, a reformed public The existing Queensland code of conduct service, we now see the results of this was developed under the previous National experiment, and the fact is that it has all gone Party Government in 1988 and, subsequently, horribly wrong. Public administration in was approved by the Governor in Council. It was Queensland is in a state of bureaucratic inertia, modelled generally on the Commonwealth's and where are the architects of this so-called guidelines on Official Conduct of Commonwealth reform? They have all split the scene. After five Public Servants 1987 for the Australian public years of reviews and reforms, the Goss service. It applied to all public officials employed Government has been left with virtual paralysis in under the Public Sector Management and its administrative structure; a demoralised public Employment Act and has been adopted by other service presided over by a politically structured units of public administration, for example, the hierarchy where public sector ethics play a very Queensland Parliamentary Service Commission. poor second fiddle to the Labor Party line. I will The Financial Administration and Audit Act have more to say on that a little later. and the related public finance standard, conflicts Initially, I will recount how this Bill came to be of interest, also established code of conduct and outline what the Opposition perceives to be procedures regulating the acceptance, retention some of its shortcomings. This legislation is a and disposal of gifts. As well, there were result of the work of the Parliamentary Committee numerous provisions prescribing various for Electoral and Administrative Review following standards of conduct for public officials in many a report from the Electoral and Administrative public sector units in Queensland. Review Commission. Both of these bodies EARC's proposed draft Public Sector Bill of recommended legislation to revise the code of 1992 was all-encompassing. It provided for conduct for public officials and to provide for codes of conduct for both elected public officials advisory educational support in the and appointed officials prepared by an Office of establishment of a comprehensive public sector Legislative Assembly 10445 17 November 1994

Public Sector Ethics with the chief executive Ethics should be separate from and outside the officers of public sector units devising adjuncts PSMC. It said— for their respective units. It also established and "The PSMC has a range of dramatically defined the ethical principles on which a code conflicting duties and responsibilities under should be structured. It also recommended that its Act. Unions have been particularly the basic principles of the Westminster system concerned about the extreme reluctance of should continue to underlie any codes of the PSMC to enforce standards and policies conduct for public officials in Queensland. Those it has already issued." ethical principles are: respect for the law and the system of Government; respect for persons; Quite simply, the PSMC was seen not to have integrity; diligence; and economy and efficiency. the necessary status to involve itself in matters of Those principles identified by EARC are ethics. embodied in the legislation before the House. The PSMC proposed, as an interim Apart from the ethical principles, there is alternative, "that a new code be introduced over little similarity between the Bill before the House a period of about two years, its introduction to be and that which was proposed by EARC. In the coordinated by the PSMC in conjunction with a parliamentary committee's deliberations on the steering committee comprising major user review of the codes of conduct, it endorsed the departments" and other units of Government. emphasis on legal regulation of institutional Despite the recommendation of the arrangements through the establishment of an parliamentary committee and the strength of the Office of Public Sector Ethics and an advisory opposition to PSMC involvement, from its panel on public sector ethics, and education and powerful position the PSMC has muscled in to training as a basis for a model of ethics meddle unnecessarily and inappropriately in the administration. basic principles of codes of conduct, and has done so with the full and unhindered support of However, other recommendations did not the Premier. meet the same fate. For example, with respect to the Office of Public Sector Ethics as an The scope of the ethics regime proposed independent agency or statutory body, the by EARC was changed substantially by the recommendation was dropped. After examining parliamentary committee from the wide definition submissions for and against, EARC's of "public sector unit" of EARC which meant that recommendation was watered down to an Office every category of public official and public sector of Public Sector Ethics located administratively unit was included in the code. For example, the within the Premier's portfolio. Its functions definition included the courts of the State and should be to assist, to advise and to educate, but their registries and administrative offices. But a not to investigate, in regard to public sector submission from the Chief Justice of the ethics. Neither the Bill before the House, the Supreme Court pointed out that the Explanatory Notes, nor the Premier's second- recommendation overlooked the doctrine of the reading speech mentions an Office of Public separation of powers—about which apparently Sector Ethics or an advisory panel. However, the the Premier opposite used to know so much Premier did say— about; I will remind him—which emphasised the need to maintain appropriate independence for "A new central ethics training and the courts and the judges. advice function will be established on a two- year temporary basis within the Public In his speech to introduce this Bill, the Sector Management Commission." Premier said that staff of Government owned corporations would not be covered by the Act, The parliamentary committee said— but that GOCs would be encouraged by their "After considering the advices and shareholding Ministers to develop their own submissions received, and examining the codes along similar lines, reflecting their statutory provisions under which the Public commercial circumstances. Quite clearly, there Sector Management Commission operates, were difficulties with such an approach. For the committee is of the opinion that the sound reasons, it appears that the definition of Public Sector Management Commission is "public sector unit" was changed. not the appropriate agency to co-ordinate This Bill does not usher into Queensland's the public sector ethics scheme." public sector any new dimension in ethical Dr Noel Preston, who is a lecturer at the conduct. According to Dr Preston, codes have School of Humanities, opposed PSMC not been particularly effective in eliminating involvement, as did the State Public Services unethical conduct. A factor contributing to their Federation Union of Employees. The SPSFU ineffectiveness is their adoption for the wrong was adamant that the Office of Public Sector reasons. He argues that a more serious case of misplaced expectations for codes emerges 17 November 1994 10446 Legislative Assembly when it is assumed that they should and can EARC itself warned that an ethical public cover every contingency of misconduct, or that sector will not be achieved "by the simple act of once declared they become immutable, almost promulgating a set of principles or rules of ethical holy writ. conduct for public officials". A theme running He went on to say that, when this happens, through submissions to EARC and the the implementation of codes becomes prisoner parliamentary committee is the building of an to a rule-bound ethos which invites ethical culture. This is an approach which the circumvention tactics—technicalities to beat the coalition supports. technicalities—leading to more rules and less To this end, EARC and the parliamentary personal responsibility for moral judgment, committee recommended education and thereby discrediting the ethics process. training, which must be overseen by the chief Within two years, there are going to be executive officer, about the operation of the Act, many, many different codes. The Bill provides for the application of ethics principles and a code of conduct to provide differently in obligations and the contents of the entity's code relation to the standards of conduct which are to of conduct. Events over recent times and apply to different types of officials. The matters which have happened under this Labor Opposition is concerned that the code of Government necessitate that we consider them conduct preparation process will be long and within the context of the building of an ethical convoluted—like almost everything that this culture. Government does—creating another layer of red The House will recall that recently the former tape for beleaguered public servants to filter. Labor senator Graham Richardson launched his Again, this is like almost everything that this book Whatever it Takes. At the National Press Government does. Club, he said that lying about leadership Within one department there will be many tensions or policy divisions was "what was different codes but with a single consistency, required of modern successful Governments". and that is the ethics obligations. It must be Mr Deputy Speaker, I know that you would find remembered, too, that there are professional that abhorrent. The former senator went on to codes and the opportunity exits for conflict say that a "party's political success demanded between the public officials' code and the lies about leadership tensions". He admitted that professional code. This concern has been lying to the media was a necessary part of the registered by academics at universities and by political process; moreover, it was integral to medical doctors. good Government. The Bill gives authority to the chief It seems that one Labor senator, as a former executive officer to ensure that a code of elected official and senior Minister, had no conduct is prepared based on wide consultation concern about his ethical obligations or the with officials to whom the code is to apply, as well creation of an ethical culture within the nation's as the unions and any other bodies representing public sector. The question must be asked: how the interests of the officials. Apart from the far does this cancer of lying spread within the consultative process, cognisance will have to be Labor Party? I note that the Premier, after some taken of requirements such as freedom of discreet silence while sour relationships with information and judicial review. Codes will be Lord Mayor Soorley were public comment, said approved by the "responsible authority", something about lying not being acceptable presumably the Minister for the administering conduct. As the House will observe, one of the agency or the appropriate board or council. ethical obligations in the Bill before the House is integrity, which, according to my English As I pointed out earlier, the existing code dictionary, means honesty. Creating an ethical was approved by the Governor in Council. It must culture must include the parliamentarians at both be said that there is concern that Parliament is State and Federal levels, if standards are to be giving approval for the preparation of codes of set and maintained. conduct which the Parliament itself will not sight. Logical arguments have been presented by Another matter which is anathema to EARC and by the parliamentary committee as to building an ethical culture within public sector why codes should not be regulatory, but the units is politicisation of the public service. Those Opposition is concerned that the Bill provides for of us on this side of the House have raised this disciplinary action to be taken in relation to matter several times, the most recent occasion officials in accordance with the head of power being a meeting between Minister Warner, under which the relevant official is employed, senior public servants from her department and and that the Parliament has not seen the code of consultants. conduct. This aspect worries the Opposition. A perusal of the agenda shows that it was a political meeting. The second item on that Legislative Assembly 10447 17 November 1994 agenda after "Meeting commences with Minister" The SES in Queensland is politically correct, says it all—"Election issues". In parenthesis at and it is this political correctness that is eating the end of the agenda were these words: "need away at the Westminster system of Government ministerial response to concept of 'family and eating away at good public administration in package' and marginal seat issues for the Queensland. Politically correct SES officers grow department". and flourish and are rewarded under this The question can be asked: what was the politically correct environment while ordinary Minister doing talking to senior public servants public servants grapple with a never-ending flow about election and marginal seat issues on 12 of internal bureaucratic demands. The politically October at Yungaba? What was she doing? Was correct SES officers work the system, and some she having a pleasant afternoon tea, or was there aspire to elected official status with the Premier's something more sinister? The answer is the imprimatur. Others simply leave or escape after antithesis of building an ethical culture. The making a mess of public administration. Minister was engaged in the blatant politicising of It must be remembered that the politically her department, or is it that the entire senior correct usurped the positions of experienced, executive service is a Labor bastion and there is knowledgeable, apolitical senior public officials now no distinction between carrying out who were simply booted out and treated Government policy and doing political work? The disgracefully. To this day, there are many public Minister is retiring and she is not a candidate, so servants who feel that they are marked, who are what was she doing discussing election and seeing the top jobs go to politically correct marginal seats issues with senior public servants people, from Consumer Affairs to the at taxpayers' expense? appointment of magistrates. The appalling mess Mr Cooper: She's a pawn. in public administration across all sectors—Health, Family Services, Police, Lands, Mr BORBIDGE: She is a pawn of the Primary Industries, Justice and system, as my colleague said. Attorney-General—— That was not all. Also on the agenda was Mr Cooper: The prison system. "Issues politically damaging". Mr BORBIDGE:—Treasury and Mr Littleproud: Heaps of them. prisons—can be shot home to the abysmal lack Mr BORBIDGE: There are heaps of them. of experienced and knowledgeable senior public This included what the honourable member said servants. This politically correct environment, was not an issue when he laughed at the Deputy which is permeating down to other levels in the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, that is, the public service, is not the environment in which an highly political issue of Heiner, Coyne and ethical culture will or can be built—unless, of Lindeberg. So as recently as 12 October—while course, it is a politically correct ALP ethical we are talking about public sector ethics and a culture whose standards include those non-political public service—we have a Minister enunciated by former Senator Graham over at Yungaba with her senior cronies, with her Richardson. servants surrounding her, talking about the Prior to 1989, the then Opposition Leader highly damaging issues of Heiner, Coyne and launched a policy document titled Return to Lindeberg, and how to fix them. Is that not more Westminster—Public Service Reform Policy than a little inconsistent with the public sector under a Goss Labor Government. It makes for ethics virgin who sits opposite me today? interesting reading. That document formed the The Heiner/Coyne/Lindeberg matter is not basis for what has led to the mess that we have in an issue for public sector officials. It is not about public administration today. I table that policy; it is about politics and it is about what the document. The House will recall that the Premier Cabinet did in ordering the shredding of said that GOCs will not be covered by the Act but documents when there was a letter on file stating that GOCs would be encouraged by their that legal action was pending. And this shareholding Ministers to develop their own Government talks about ethics! With this codes along similar lines reflecting their standard of political conduct permeating at the commercial circumstances. For the benefit of SES level of this department, one has to be very, Labor members opposite, I will quote their 1989 very concerned about the codes of conduct to policy document about corporatisation. It emerge from that department. The example set states— by Minister Warner and her senior public officials "It (corporatisation) undermines the impedes and runs contrary to the building of an principle of a unified public service, with ethical culture. This Labor Government is about consistent rules and opportunities. Under a building a politically correct culture but not an Goss Labor Government the shift to ethical culture. corporatisation for its own sake will end." 17 November 1994 10448 Legislative Assembly

"It will end", the Premier said. The document resource management. So much for the continues— undertaking by the Goss Labor Government! Its "Indeed, the trend will be to word and the word of its Premier are not its bond. reincorporate statutory authorities within the Mr FitzGerald: Richardson's right. departmental framework wherever Mr BORBIDGE: As my friend says, appropriate, in the interest of rationalising Graham Richardson might have been talking public service structures, reducing about someone we all know! fragmentation, and reasserting ministerial responsibility." The House will recall that, following the findings of the 1992 Auditor-General's report The Premier must believe in fairies. What a that there was "a significant degree of turnaround! There are now so many corporatised non-compliance with 1991 guidelines relating to bodies under Labor that the Premier exempts the use of consultants by the public sector" and them from this Act. for other reasons, the Parliamentary Public Mr Elliott: He has gnomes down the Accounts Committee conducted an inquiry into bottom of his garden. the matter. I quote from the report— Mr BORBIDGE: The Premier must have "There is a perception that the use of gnomes down the bottom of his garden. consultants has been steadily increasing. There is one group that the Premier omitted The figures obtained from departmental to mention, that is, consultants. We know how annual reports for the financial years 1991- this Government loves consultants! Do they 92 and 1992-93 support this premise. need a code of conduct? After all, they are part There has been an increase from and parcel of this Government. Failing that, $54,800,238 in the 1991-92 financial year should there be included in the code a clause to $64,864,341 in the 1992-93 financial covering professional relationships between year—an increase of just over $10 million." public servants and consultants? Consultants The reality is much different from the undertaking move in and out of Government offices as easily given. The 1989 public service policy was as the politically correct. nothing but window-dressing. It did not carry It was prophesied in 1989 that consultants through its undertakings. would be an extinct species under the Goss On the matter of redundancies, the House Labor Government. This is what that same policy will note that it was Labor's policy that there said—— would be no redundancies. I will quote the Mr Elliott: That's not what the Public pertinent point— Accounts Committee discovered, is it? "In implementing its machinery of Mr BORBIDGE: That is certainly not what Government reforms, a Goss Labor the Public Accounts Committee discovered. Government is committed to no redundancies in the public service." Mr Beanland: A growth industry. That is a joke! There have been hundreds of Mr BORBIDGE: It discovered redundancies, many of them forced, as the consultancies to be a great growth industry. Let politically correct regime took over. us have a look at the promise back in 1989. Redundancies have occurred everywhere. Merit These were the words of the man opposite— was a mercenary tool to get rid of apolitical, "Under a Goss Labor Government . . . experienced and knowledgeable public servants large-scale reliance on contracted from Under Treasurers to humble clerks. The 'management experts' will end . . ." Gulag—the correspondence unit. We all just like corporatisation! The policy continued— remember the shameful and shabby treatment that was meted out. "The PSMC will be the body able to advise on structural, financial and personnel It should be noted that some of those who issues, while an end to current contract were made redundant have been re-employed practices will restore valuable skills to the as consultants to provide the necessary permanent public service." expertise that came from experience that the politically correct could not offer. This We know what has happened. There is more Government said that there would be no than one gnome at the bottom of the garden! redundancies; it got rid of people; the politically The opposite has occurred. In the 1992-93 year, correct messed it up so much that the the PSMC outlaid $108,200 on consultants, with Government had to re-employ those made $96,600 being spent on human resource redundant as consultants to help bail it out, when management. In 1993-94, the figure blew out to the Government said that there would not be any $160,200, with $135,800 being for human redundancies in the first place. What a shambles! Legislative Assembly 10449 17 November 1994

This is the record of the Goss Labor offices. With respect to the coalition Opposition Government—a record of broken promises to parties, not one recommendation has been the public sector—and it will be very, very difficult agreed to by the Goss Labor Government. for it to be taken seriously with respect to The most disturbing aspect, both from the building an ethical culture based on the point of building an ethical culture and the ethical Westminster system of Government. obligations which are the basis for the codes of Under this Goss Labor Government, the conduct, is the fact that there is monitoring of system is being well worked to advantage the public servants' telephones to determine, to Labor Party, from the use of Government track, to record and to report to Ministers contact material, such as Budget papers being handed with the Opposition. What form it takes I do not around at Labor fund raisers, to reserved parking know, but what is known is that this Government for its powerbrokers at the Executive Building. traces telephone calls and knows exactly how For example, Mike Kaiser, State Secretary of the many seconds or minutes a call to my office or a ALP, and Wayne Swan, former State Secretary call to an Opposition member takes. This Goss and now Federal member for Lilley, have Government even knows the extension from reserved parking under the Executive Building. which the call is made. What does the Treasurer Mr W. K. GOSS: I rise to a point of order. say? He says, "We own the telephones. They are My point of order is that that is untrue and my telephones, I will monitor them and I will do offensive to me. They do not have such what I like with that information." Government reserved spaces. I seek a withdrawal. members talk about public sector ethics—they are a pack of frauds. Is it proper conduct for a Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Palaszczuk): Government to have employees to monitor Order! I ask the Leader of the Opposition to internal calls to the Opposition? It is not; it is withdraw. highly unethical. But will this legislation stop this Mr BORBIDGE: I will withdraw, but later in activity? Of course it will not. It is absolutely this debate I will table the parking register for the unethical conduct, and it is morally wrong. Executive Building and I would expect the I am concerned that the public servants Premier to then apologise. whom we contact with respect to normal Mr W. K. GOSS: I rise to a point or order. I constituency work and those who contact us on seek an unqualified withdrawal. a professional basis may become targets in the Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the process of ensuring a politically correct public Leader of the Opposition to withdraw. service. This conduct by the Government is not the basis on which good administration is based, Mr BORBIDGE: I will, and I will table that let alone providing for the building of an ethical document. culture. It shows that there is no respect for the Apparently, Mr Kaiser's park is reserved for system of government. It shows that the Mondays, which just happens to be Cabinet day. Government is paranoid and wants a secure, I suppose he can argue that he has to visit the politically correct public service as opposed to president of the party, who just happens to be a one which goes about its work respecting the law Cabinet Minister. and the system of government. Mr Littleproud: Bill Ludwig. One of the hallmarks of the Public Sector Mr BORBIDGE: I do not think that Bill Management Commission has been the Ludwig has a car park space—he is not on my list, implementation of new public sector which is a bit surprising. Then again, he has the management standards—standards on key to the Premier's office any time. This is called discipline, criminal charges and convictions and working the system and being politically correct. employee assistance; standards for performance The Premier can say what he likes and he can planning and review; managing diminished deny it, but the fact is that those names, those performance and so on. Standards are registration numbers and those parking bays are necessary, but what is happening is that there is on a list that has been circulated in the Premier's new bureaucracy in almost every public sector office, and I will table that document later. unit to determine the implementation of the standards and to monitor and report progress. The politically correct approach to Many officers are now more consumed with government as opposed to the ethical approach performance criteria and working out interservice is more apparent when one considers the agreements than in doing practical things. One resource needs of non-Government members of only has to look at the hospital system under this the Legislative Assembly. Both PCEAR and Labor Government to see the huge bureaucratic EARC agreed that the staff establishment of the workload of professional people whose primary Opposition parties should be maintained at 20 function should be to care and heal. per cent of the staff establishment of ministerial 17 November 1994 10450 Legislative Assembly

The Opposition is concerned about the public sector. This Goss Labor Government, if it obligation for economy and efficiency. For this has the will, should look hard at that model and Goss Labor Government, this means public try to unmash the public administration mess it servants being watched—being spied upon—to and it alone has created by itself. In Labor's 1989 determine if there is diminished performance. policy speech, the then Leader of the Senior public servants across all departments are Opposition said— stressed and unhappy with changes and with the "Beyond the Fitzgerald agenda Labor's bureaucratic nature of their jobs and are in real Public Sector Management Commission will need of being wanted and valued for providing reform our public service to restore good public administration to the State. independence, integrity and efficiency." The polices of the PSMC, the polices of the Mr Littleproud: When Labor lost power in Goss Labor Government, the policies of the man 1957, not one public servant lost their job under opposite, have turned public administration into the Nicklin Government. a mess across Government departments. The only way to fix it is to rebuild. In Government, the Mr BORBIDGE: The honourable member coalition will do that. for Western Downs reminds me of what a dramatic departure we saw in the disgraceful Mr Livingstone: There'll be a long time to purge by the man opposite and his cronies, wait. some of whom have now departed or who are Mr BORBIDGE: The honourable member departing in regard to good, professional public who interjects has the distinction of making servants. However, the fact is that the promise Ipswich marginal. was made in 1989. I will just repeat that promise Mr Livingstone: You'll be on a pension because it shows what a plastic Government this by then. is. It states— Mr BORBIDGE: The honourable member "Beyond the Fitzgerald agenda Labor's opposite who interjects was one of the prime Public Sector Management Commission will architects behind the local government routing reform our public service to restore of the Labor Party in Ipswich where they got one independence, integrity and efficiency." back. What a joke! The Goss Labor Government has Mr Livingstone: How many did you get? failed. The senior positions throughout the whole of the service are politicised. Public Mr BORBIDGE: I just hope he plays a very servants in the departments do political work for active role in the strategy for the election of the Ministers. Their integrity has been compromised Goss Labor Government, because he is one of through politicisation and efficiency has been the biggest duds who ever walked in here. replaced by unproductive bureaucratic Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The processes. This Labor Government and its honourable member for Ipswich West shall not leader are only paying lip service to public sector interject from a place other than his own, and the ethics in the Westminster tradition. Leader of the Opposition shall return to the Ms POWER (Mansfield) (12.10 p.m.): In contents of the Bill. political life there can be no truer statement than Mr BORBIDGE: I am sorry, Mr Deputy you are damned if you do and you are damned if Speaker. I was provoked. you don't. Although I welcome the support of the Opposition members support this Bill, and Opposition, I must say that the member for with goodwill, but we do not want it turned into a Surfers Paradise is far from the mark when he bureaucratic monster which puts more pressure talks about the public service and what it was like on the State's beleaguered public servants or prior to 1989—as though a magic wand was ends up creating more regulations. We support swept over it. He was sitting in here in the safety the building of an ethical culture as opposed to a of the Parliament; he was not out there working. politically correct culture. Let me tell him that there was fear and damnation going on in the public service before 1989. In The approach of this Government to the the teaching service, we knew that if someone public sector is messy. By contrast, in Western asked for a transfer or got a transfer, it was often Australia the Public Service Act is being repealed because that person had said the politically and a range of innovative reforms are being incorrect thing. To think that political correctness introduced. Measures to protect public service has only become a word after 1989 is a farce. integrity are a key part of the new WA legislation. It is about good management, accountability, Mr Bredhauer: Martin Tenni would give a official conduct and integrity in Government as list of the teachers he didn't want in his well as laying the groundwork for standards of electorate. equity, merit and probity which apply across the Legislative Assembly 10451 17 November 1994

Ms POWER: Exactly. Martin Tenni and should be in the Premier's Department or in the many others would give a list to regional directors office of the PSMC? and send them where they could—as far away as Ms POWER: Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not possible, where they could do no harm. Those of going to take the inane interjections from us who tried the promotional trail learnt very members of the Opposition, and I ask that you quickly to keep our mouths shut or else lose our rule that they cease their interjecting. chances of transfer and promotion. The Electoral and Administrative Review I do not believe that anywhere in the Bill or Commission was given a brief to look at ongoing with EARC did we not recognise the work of the reform programs in a whole range of areas of the former Government in putting into place a Electoral and Administrative Review Act. I believe committee structure. But that committee we can hold our heads up proudly as a structure was actually a short-term measure. Government to accept some changes and put in EARC has conducted a full and comprehensive place this ethics Bill. We do not want a return to debate about ethics and put the findings into the moonlight State, on which the Fitzgerald place. Nobody is suggesting that any piece of inquiry proceeded. As I said, we want to have legislation is here for life; it should be able to be standards in the public service. reviewed and changed to suit the circumstances. We have in place a Public Sector The Leader of the Opposition cited the Management Commission to oversee many of Honourable Minister for Family Services as the reforms. It is no secret that I have been critical having been off the track a little. I remind him that of some of the ways in which that reform process several of his former Ministers have served time operates. That is probably because many of the in the gaols of Queensland for their lack of people in the Public Sector Management integrity, their lack of political correctness and Commission are like many members of the their lack of correctness in their jobs as Ministers. Opposition, that is, they have never been public Mr Bredhauer: And if we got down to the servants. It is a bit hard to understand some of former Police Commissioner—— the cultural stuff if one has never been Ms POWER: If it got down to taking the there—not that I am suggesting that we all want Police Commissioner to task, that would take up to return to the public service, either; there are my entire speech. But one does not throw some advantages to this job. stones. I am sure that we can all think of From some of the comments that have been examples. made, it appears that there is not necessarily an This Bill attempts to put us on a track that understanding by all members of the separation talks about ethics. It gives us some standards of powers. It seems that even the Leader of the with which we know everybody must comply. Opposition was suggesting that we must look at People talk about Senator Richardson. At least the ethics that the various departments are going he is honest enough to tell it as it is. Former to come up with and monitor them. I do not know Premier Joh Bjelke-Petersen is hanging around all the other public service areas. I certainly would in Tasmania pretending that he did nothing. not want to be the keeper of the keys to ethics performances. But my argument would be that Mr FitzGerald: Where's Brian Burke? the chief executive officers are duly appointed Ms POWER: It is not a question of naming because of their skills; they are paid according to them all. I am simply saying that there is a those skills, and they should be left with the balance. All that the Leader of the Opposition power to develop codes of ethics that suit their has done is cite Labor members, as though we departments. They will take carriage, and they will are the only people who are guilty. But his party be responsible for those ethics. If they fall flat on has nothing to be proud of in its governing of this their faces, they will have to answer to the State in the 1980s, the 1970s and the 1960s. Parliament. We are not here to debate who is right or wrong, Today, I place on record my appreciation of but simply to say that at least this Bill puts ethical the many public servants in this State and the practice on track and gives us some standards. work that they do. This Bill is not about rapping Perhaps not everything is all good and well in the public servants over the knuckles and saying, Bill, but we will learn as we go along. "You are not doing a good enough job. Lift your I am proud to rise to support the Public standards." This Bill will protect public servants. It Sector Ethics Bill as a member of the will give them clear guidelines for their standards Parliamentary Committee for Electoral and of integrity and ethical behaviour in the public Administrative Review. I am pleased to see it service so that we do not have questions about come to fruition. whether one can put a hairdressing bill on a Mr FitzGerald: Do you think the office statement or whether someone can use his or her telephone for personal or private calls. This 17 November 1994 10452 Legislative Assembly will provide clear guidelines so that people will be departments, administrative officers of a court or protected. a tribunal, commissioners, authorities, officers, The EARC commission reported in May corporations and instrumentalities established 1992. It went back over the ethics regime that under an Act or Government authorisation, had been established by the former universities, State colleges, agricultural colleges Government, and it found that those codes were and local government. The only criticism or wanting. In fact, many departments did not even concern that I have had expressed to me is, know they had codes of ethics. Many of them "What about the elected officials?" I have were impractical, and they were not based on assured people that that will come with the clear, real principles outlined to the departments. establishment of the committees, and we will This was supported by many of the submissions probably see a much wider view for members' to the commission, and later to the committee, interests and members' privileges. that departments just did not know what was The agencies have to develop their own going on. So a lot of interest was centred on codes. The important point that has come out of EARC and the Parliamentary Committee for all of the submissions is that in the past people Electoral and Administrative Review about did not have a code of ethics which defined reaching a process whereby people would know ethical behaviour. The Bill provides for ongoing what the ethics standards were in their training. For big departments such as Education, departments. I found the public sector ethics Health and Police, which are spread right across report both challenging and interesting. Having the State, and for the one or two-teacher schools been on both sides of the fence, it was or the one-officer departments, it is certainly interesting to see how people who have not going to be a challenge to ensure that the been public servants cited cases, as opposed to training reaches all levels. As the teacher in a people who were in the public service. one-teacher school outside Winton, I used to In his contribution, the Leader of the receive directions and memos from the Opposition travelled all over the State and department. On a party line, one does not get identified few areas of disagreement. The EARC much of a chance to ring the regional office to commission, the EARC committee and the find out what is going on. It will be challenging for Government are in general agreement about the departments, but the end result will be worth it. ethics Bill. It is a shame that that did not become Public servants will understand their role and clear until the last paragraph of the Leader of the they will have guidelines setting out what is Opposition's speech, when we found out that ethical behaviour. the Opposition did actually support this The chief executive officer has legislation, but with a bit of reservation. I said responsibility for the carriage of the agency's earlier that the need was evident by the number codes. I imagine that he or she will pass on down of submissions that were credited to both the the line some of the responsibilities as they commission and the committee. develop. Of course, the legislation will contain I will now turn to discuss the objects of the sanctions to ensure that people follow the Bill, which seem to have been lost on the Leader codes, and that will be complemented by the of the Opposition. Basically, the Public Sector whistleblowers legislation that is to be debated Ethics Bill declares the actual principles under later today. which the public service should operate. Each I would like to quote Noel Preston, the public sector agency then has to develop its own senior lecturer in applied ethics who gave a lot of code of conduct. It is to be part of the chief guidance to the Committee for Electoral and executive officer's duties to ensure that people Administrative Review. He states— are aware of that code of conduct and that it is "Nothing is more dangerous to the observed. In regard to the objectives, there is well-being of the body politic than a public not much disagreement between the official who is technologically competent or commission and the committee, and between strategically astute but ethically illiterate or the Government and the Opposition. unfit." The Bill sets out the five ethical principles I support the Bill, which will ensure that which are the basis of good public administration, Queensland public servants are ethically literate namely, respect for law and the system of and fit. government, respect for persons, integrity, diligence, and economy and efficiency. Those Mr SANTORO (Clayfield—Deputy Leader ethics are detailed in the clauses in the Bill and, of the Liberal Party) (12.26 p.m.): Having read of course, in the Explanatory Notes. the inspirational introductory speech of the Premier and then compared the advertisement The Bill is wide ranging. It covers the with the product, I can only conclude that this is a parliamentary service, the public service classic papier-mache Bill. It is very much form and Legislative Assembly 10453 17 November 1994 very little substance. It makes all the right noises of these improvements have occurred under this but has no machinery to back it up. It is akin to a Government. I would be less than honest if I did plea by a hawker that his customers should "trust not say that a number of reforms have been put me". in place to streamline the public sector and to Perhaps more interesting is that the reasons align its practices more with those of private put forward for the need for legislation like this enterprise. There is greater emphasis on are in fact diluted, if not emasculated, by its very corporate and strategic planning and there is a terms. It is in relation to that particular belief that I growing awareness of the need to identify the wish to support very strongly the comments service obligations of each public sector agency. made by the Leader of the Opposition. Some Some of the benefits of the British Citizens might even be cruel enough to say that this is a Charters are now being digested by our own piece of political hypocrisy, introduced by a man public sector. There is an emphasis in some and a Government elected on a promise to clean areas on training and some of the structural up Government, but who have now fallen in love inefficiencies have been ironed out. with exercising power; a Government In light of those introductory comments, the increasingly resistant to change and intolerant of question that we should ask is: how does the Bill criticism; a Government led by a man who is a add to the reform process and enhance both control freak with a manic desire to control public administration and public accountability in debate, to determine appearances, and who is this State? In dealing with that question, which desperately afraid of the unknown. He is a man goes to the very heart of this Bill, honourable who claims that he is of and for the people but members have to look no further than the EARC who fears their judgment and is prepared to use Report on the Review of Codes of Conduct for every method he can to manipulate public Public Officials. EARC pointed out that its report opinion and to cower to bureaucracy. This is the dealt with specific and fundamental issues for man, and this is the Government, we are being good government in this State, namely, the asked to trust. characteristics of the proper relationships that Let me say that we acknowledge that with ought to exist between public officials and the massive changes in our society, our laws, our Government; the responsibilities that public economy and our outlook on how Government officials owe to the public and to other public should operate, it is imperative that changes be officials; and the competing and conflicting made in the bureaucracy. The public sector has understandings of ethics that arise whenever the to be made more accountable to the community conduct of public officials is discussed seriously. and more receptive to the changes that are EARC also pointed out that the resurgence occurring on the outside. It has to have more of a of interest in administrative ethics has its customer focus, it has to become more genesis, to a large extent, in the following entrepreneurial and it has to become more causes: firstly, the emerging evidence of efficient and effective. corruption, self-interest and improper conduct in That is not to say that the public sector of the public services of Australia, and evidence this State is now lagging or ever has lagged that older conceptions of public service behind comparable bureaucracies in Australia. professionalism, independence and non- This is simply to recognise that as our economy partisan commitment to the public interest may becomes more integrated with global trends, and be under serious challenge; secondly, the as we become more competitive, we have to questioning of the once generally accepted ensure that all sectors of the economy not only distinction between policy making and change but also have the internal mechanisms in administration, which has the former as the place to keep on changing. In short, a new spirit proper concern of elected and responsible needs to be instilled in the public sector—not politicians and the latter reserved for an one of fear or inferiority, but one in which there is appointed body of public servants who are confidence in the job the officers are doing, characterised as expert, professional, politically pride in the work they are performing and non-partisan and disinterested; and, thirdly, the incentives to ensure that necessary change increasing acceptance that non-elected officials occurs on a sustained basis. We need a spirit of exercise power, whether delegated by a Minister service and enterprise with structures that or, less formally, affecting the rights and interests complement the culture and maximise the results of ordinary citizens who are generally unable to that are being produced. ascertain whether that power is used properly and in their interests. Further, and in a spirit of genuine bipartisanship, let me say that the Queensland EARC quite properly recognised that no public sector has made a number of important code of conduct can provide fully for the endless steps forward over the past 10 years, and some variety of circumstances that a public official will have to face. It recognised that it is better to have 17 November 1994 10454 Legislative Assembly in legislation a number of critical principles that 'ownership' and understanding of a code's could then be applied to the particular provisions by those to whom the code circumstances of various public sector agencies. applies, and to ensure that the code is Professor Klein from the John Jay University relevant to the working circumstances of the in New York at a seminar in Brisbane some time in organisation to which it relates. 1993 agreed that legislative codes of conduct . . . are ineffective in reducing official misconduct in Codes are to be approved by a the public sector generally. Experience in 'responsible authority'. The responsible Australia and overseas demonstrates that the authority . . . is the responsible Minister, or best a code of conduct will provide is a guiding the body ultimately responsible for the platform for decision making. Those codes management and direction of the cannot accommodate all aspects of ethics in the organisation." public sector and without other anti-corruption management strategies in the public arena, this Honourable members would not be legislation will be totally ineffectual. surprised to hear that this is not what EARC recommended. It suggested that an Office of To the extent that this Bill gives effect to this Public Sector Ethics be established to assist in recommendation, I believe that it is going down the development of codes and to provide a the right track. However, there is a downside to general overview of what was taking place. this, and it is this downside that highlights the Instead, this Bill delegates this power to chief weakness of this Bill. It is true that EARC did not executives with the only overview being the suggest legislation that would be all- relevant Minister. encompassing and attempt to deal with every possible ethical circumstance for all public sector The major ethical problems of Governments agencies. It recognised correctly that this is involves the direction or responsibility in not almost an impossibility, it could be clearly and precisely specifying and monitoring counterproductive and it could inhibit the public sector conduct. In recent times, the focus development of individual ethical competence. on ethics has been attributed succinctly to the problem of ethics itself. The Queensland public Who develops these codes of conduct? will no longer tolerate hypocrisy. We really want Who has the ultimate authority to reject or approve them? Finally, who has implementation public servants to do what is best for the people, responsibility? Before answering those not for those who befriend or, indeed, as often questions, let me quote from the EARC report. It happens under this Government, enrich them. states— We all know that chief executives are contract appointees, usually for a limited period. Some of "The question of formal responsibility the current crop of chief executives are just for the implementation of any Code of faithful Labor Party stalwarts. I give as examples Conduct will also have implications for both Craig Emerson, Leo Keliher and, of course, Dick the form and content of the code and the Persson. ethical culture of the organisation or system to which the code applies." It is simply not good enough for codes of ethics to be left in the hands of chief executives Let me refer honourable members to the with only ministerial oversight. I ask: what circulated Explanatory Notes for this Bill. I might particular skills do Ministers have? What body is add that the Premier, in his second-reading going to have the power or opportunity to speech, only skirted around the issue, and that ensure that there are some basic rules in place was alluded to by the honourable the Leader of within the various codes? In short, who is the the Opposition. At page 7 of the Explanatory standard setter? Who ensures that due process Notes, the following explanation appears— takes place? Who ensures that there is a level "Part 4 imposes an obligation on chief playing field between organisations of executive officers of public sector entities to Government? develop a code of conduct specific to that organisation. A code may make different EARC was of the view that the proposed provision for different groups of officials in Office of Public Sector Ethics would have the an organisation, consistent with the following responsibilities— obligations, dependent on the duties and administration of the Public Sector Ethics functions performed by those officials. Act; Chief executive officers are to be development and training programs and responsible for ensuring that adequate materials in conjunction with users; consultation is undertaken in the development of codes, to maximise Legislative Assembly 10455 17 November 1994

provision of advice to organisations and acceptable official conduct, which are derived individuals on cases and the detailed from relevant community perceptions of what application of the Act and codes; ethical standards are appropriate and consistent provision of detailed, expert advice and with the functional roles of such officials, then assistance to departments, authorities, there would appear to me to be no good reason agencies, and individuals on casework and at all for excluding Government owned specific ethics and official conduct matters; enterprises. It is not a case of putting these bodies at a competitive disadvantage or in any coordination of a common and coherent unreasonable way impeding the operational approach to public sector ethics matters with efficiency of such bodies; it is simply codifying the CJC, PSMC and the Department of what they should be doing already. Local Government; and I suggest that the Government cannot have reporting to the Parliament on activity under it both ways. If it does not want to privatise these the legislation. bodies, it should be prepared to ensure that the Although EARC suggested that this body same ethical standards applying to mainstream be situated in the Premier's Department—a bureaucrats apply to them. Arguably, as the only suggestion with which I do not agree—I am shareholder of these bodies, it would then be concerned that this Bill will not guarantee setting a practical example of ethical behaviour to consistency in the development of codes or any other private sector enterprises and their sort of independent analysis of whether a shareholders. proposed code of conduct meets the grade or is I note also that this legislation applies to local hopelessly inadequate. Ministerial oversight of government, yet in the Explanatory Notes under these codes will either be an irrelevance or result "Consultation" there is no mention of the Local in the codes being politicised, emasculated or Government Association. Under the Constitution diverted into dry gullies. Act, local government has to be consulted, so I As such, I think that this Bill lacks substance. ask the Premier: has such consultation It will not result in sustained improvement in occurred? Presuming it has, what is the attitude public sector ethics and, in fact, could very well of local government to this Bill? be counterproductive. As honourable members I wish to address four other issues which I would appreciate, if a public servant breaches a believe are relevant to this Bill. At a recent code he or she is subject to possible disciplinary Parliamentary Criminal Justice Commission action under clause 24 by relevant authorities. In hearing, the question was posed as to who other words, these codes will have a significant should be accountable for the teaching and impact on the public sector, yet despite this and monitoring of codes of conduct and ethical the consequences the breach of a code could behaviour. Should it be the Criminal Justice have for individual public servants, this Bill Commission, the Corruption Prevention contains nothing but platitudes on what should Directorate, the Public Sector Management be in them and carte blanche to chief executives Commission or Government agencies? The and Ministers to develop them. dilemma was not resolved. The Criminal Justice Let me now turn briefly to some other Commission argues a legislative mandate under matters of concern. The Explanatory Notes point its Act of Parliament to control this area. So will out that the Government has decided that this Act bring the Criminal Justice Commission statutory and company Government owned into direct conflict with the Government and this corporations are to be excluded from coverage. legislation? Although arguments can be put forward why this According to Professor Klein, when codes Bill should not apply to elected of conduct are established they are often representatives—and I take on board the developed and articulated at the lowest common comments that were made by the honourable denominator and do not encourage a corporate member for Mansfield who has preceded me—I zeal to achieve excellence. They often become a would ask the Premier, as has the Leader of the part of the disciplinary process, as has been the Opposition, to explain in his reply why this Bill is experience of the Queensland Police Service, not an appropriate vehicle to deal with where performance or non-performance is based Government owned enterprises. on the lowest common denominator. Often the EARC recommended specifically that codes reason for this lack of human excellence in codes of ethics should apply to bodies of this type, and of conduct comes as result of the union's I do not believe that codes of ethics would in any involvement with management in negotiating the way impair the capacity of those bodies to code of behaviour and performance. compete or meet their statutory charters. If codes One of the benefactors of public sector of ethics are meant to enshrine standards of ethics legislation are ethical educators and 17 November 1994 10456 Legislative Assembly courses. Many contemporary tertiary and Public right motherhood statements are made, but it Sector Management Commission courses have provides no means of transforming the rhetoric emphasised situation and philosophical ethics. I into performance. It may turn out to be no more would be interested to know from the Premier, or than very simple window-dressing. It has all the from anybody else who cares to provide an hallmarks of a Government that is tired of the explanation, whether in circumstances where the reform process but is going through the motions, Government regularly uses external facilitators to albeit reluctantly and with the intention of teach ethics—if, indeed, one can teach causing as few problems for itself as possible. ethics—and where unethical behaviour occurs in Now two-thirds through the second term of the workplace by a course participant, the the Goss Labor Government, we see a growing Government can sue the ethical educators under arrogance and intolerance of debate, either the trade practices regulations for failure to within the Labor Party or the public service. educate properly. Honourable members opposite would certainly Of course, the other issue, which is very appreciate that point. We see a growing blurring relevant and which has been covered quite well of roles of public servants and ministerial staffers. already by the honourable Leader of the We have the Office of the Cabinet and the Opposition, is the deliberate politicising of the PSMC, which together try to keep departments public service and the abandonment of all following the Goss line. Occasionally, powerful principles relating to impartiality. There are many departments are able to buck the trend, such as examples that we could revisit today to illustrate Treasury and Transport, but by and large there is this point. However, for the sake of being on the a compliant bureaucracy being ruled by fear. public record, I will mention only one recent In these circumstances, codes of ethics and example that will suffice to illustrate the point that whistleblowing are critical in keeping the I am making. We have on public record that Westminster system of Government on life astounding example of the infamous Yungaba support. Unfortunately for those of us on the meeting on 12 October 1994 when Minister Opposition benches who believe in the need for Warner, her departmental director-general and an independent, non-political and permanent divisional directors met during work time to public service, this Bill will do nothing, and may in discuss marginal seat issues for the department fact simply create false hope. For these reasons, and issues politically damaging, prominent in I say to the Premier that this Bill will achieve very which was the notorious little and that he and his Government have Heiner/Coyne/Lindeberg affair. squandered another opportunity to improve Not only is it accepted by every premise of morale and operational efficiency within the the Westminster system that party political issues public sector. such as marginal seat issues have nothing Mr J. H. SULLIVAN (Caboolture) whatsoever to do with career public servants in (12.44 p.m.): It had been my intention to open their daily duties; we have the hard evidence that my contribution today with the quote with which Minister Warner and her senior departmental my colleague the member for Mansfield closed officers freely discussed the issue, and her contribution. Upon reflection, I think the amazingly actually put it on a piece of paper—— quote bears repeating. Noel Preston, a senior Mr Pearce: What is your evidence? lecturer in ethics at the Queensland University of Mr SANTORO: The honourable Technology, in an article in the Courier-Mail, member—and I cannot refer to him by name, stated— because he spoke very quietly—asked me what "There is nothing more threatening to my evidence was. I will answer his question. My the well-being of the body politic than public evidence is this agenda which was leaked to us officials, elected or appointed, who are by a conscientious public servant and which was technically competent, strategically astute tabled by the honourable the Leader of the but ethically unfit." Liberal Party. I will not take up any more time of In that article from April of this year, he spoke of the House by tabling it again. the announcement by the Government of its Clearly, that evidence has not been refuted decisions with respect to introducing a regime of in any convincing way by the Honourable the ethics into Queensland. He went on to say that Minister or her departmental people. It is a we still needed to see the details. Specifically, he disgrace that that slip of paper is floating around, felt that he needed to know whether this let alone that that meeting took place under the program would be adequately resourced and direction of the agenda that, as I said, has been "fittingly independent of Government" and tabled previously in this place. whether the regime will impact on politicians. In conclusion, I suggest to all honourable Mr Preston said also— members that this Bill is a disappointment. All the Legislative Assembly 10457 17 November 1994

"If these questions are answered they were required by legislation to implement satisfactorily, Queensland will be able to codes of conduct, that would be a good boast a public sector ethics framework message for private industry to pick up. I think comparable to international best practice." quite the opposite in respect of the point that Mr In a moment, we will answer those questions Santoro was making in relation to this aspect. more satisfactorily. I think that if GOCs are encouraged by their shareholding Minister to implement codes of I will spend a couple of moments addressing conduct, and consequently do implement them the contributions of members of the coalition. without being legislatively required to do so, that The member for Clayfield, Mr Santoro, pleased sends a more powerful message for private me immensely by not using up the 20 minutes enterprise to follow suit. If private enterprise sees available to him, which is uncharacteristic to say a GOC implementing a code of conduct and says the least. I did have a problem with the to itself, "They are doing it only because the honourable member's contribution because he Government has legislated that they must", to my relied entirely on the report of the commission mind, there is no encouragement for private and ignored the work of the Parliamentary industry. Committee for Electoral and Administrative Review, which did quite a deal of work on this Mr Santoro: What happens where the issue. My colleague the member for Mansfield Minister doesn't adopt them and what happens and I both served on that committee, which was when a department doesn't voluntarily take them chaired by the member for Barron River. We on? spent a great deal of time on this report. Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I think that all Mr FitzGerald: And the Cabinet didn't manner of human relationships are possible. I even introduce all that, did they? believe that the Ministry is comprised of reasonable people. I believe that the people who Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: We will get to what head the—— is not in it in a moment. I recognise the Mr Santoro: Are you saying all Ministers honourable member's contribution on that are reasonable? Is that what you are saying? committee as well. In my five years in this place, I have served on a number of committees with the Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I am saying that all of honourable member and have found him to be our Ministers are excellent, if the honourable an excellent person to work on committees with. member wants to play with words. They are Hence he will understand my disappointment reasonable people, as are the people who head that, although his side of politics is putting up a the GOCs. The honourable member might like to number of speakers, none of the members of criticise chief executives of various sections for the committee from the Opposition will all sorts of matters, but I believe that these contribute to the debate. people are adult and reasonable. Given the fact that these regimes are coming in and that ethics Mr FitzGerald interjected. elsewhere—— Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: We will talk about Mr Santoro: Including those chief the differences. I accept that we did have some executives who are seeking Labor Party beautiful exchanges on that committee. As the preselection? honourable member for Lockyer would recognise, this report was one that exercised a Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There is nothing great deal of time and consideration by the more repugnant about the honourable member's committee, because we did make some performance in this place than his seeking to significant departures from the attack people in the public service. For the term of the previous Parliament, he stood up in here recommendations of the commission. By and and read out a long list of names. He trawled large, I think that we would all agree that those through the gazettes to see who got an departures were proper. As a committee we did appointment and who belonged to the Labor receive—and I am not sure which one of Party. I will tell the honourable member why there Brisbane's ethicists wrote the letter to us—at might have been some Labor Party least one letter that said that our work had appointments for him to report to the Parliament. improved on the work of the commission. It is the work of the commission upon which Mr Santoro Under the former Government, for 32 years, if has relied. one was a member of the Labor Party in this State, one had to go somewhere else to get a In his contribution, Mr Santoro spoke about job. For example, Bill Woods was a member of the fact that the staff of GOCs will not be covered this Parliament. After he lost his seat, where did by the codes of conduct being imposed under he have to go to get a job? He had to go to this legislation. He indicated that he felt that, if Canberra because Joh would not re-employ him. 17 November 1994 10458 Legislative Assembly

Mr T. B. Sullivan: "Never to be imposing something else onto the public re-employed" was written on his file. servants rather than allowing them to do it Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Bill Woods has themselves. This Bill outlines some expectations fallen on his feet. That is terrific. Let us have a and also some things to which they should look at Craig Sherrin. Where is he? He is the aspire. Let them get on and do it in a way that is Director of the North Point TAFE. Did we send relevant to their workplace and to their him to Victoria or South Australia? No! circumstances. Government members interjected. I must admit that I have some sympathy for the public servants who will be asked to be Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: The list goes on. involved in this process. I recognise that public The performance of the party opposite is so servants have been asked to do a lot of things in repugnant that the idea that the honourable the past five years. The Department of Primary member for Clayfield would try to lecture us on Industries, for example, was concurrently ethics is laughable, to say the least. required to go through a major restructuring, to Mr Palaszczuk: Mr Sullivan, just consider implement public sector financial standards and the case of Bob Campbell, an honest policeman to have the PSMC undertake a review of them. who tried to expose corruption in Queensland. Mr Santoro: That was a pretty big ask. His just desserts were that he and his wife were bashed by other police officers in this area and Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I agree with the banished to Tasmania for the rest of their lives. member. Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There are lots of Mr Santoro: And a special Cabinet examples. Let us move on. I think that the point committee also. has been made and been made eloquently both Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: That is true. That by me and my colleagues. was an enormous ask. Let us return to the issue at hand—codes of Mr Santoro: That is right. So why did you conduct in GOCs. I believe that not only will the hang all those poor public servants, then? Ministers encourage the GOCs to implement Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There was an them but also that the people in the GOCs will enormous amount. In terms of this, maybe we are want to do so. That will send a more powerful asking—— message to private enterprise than if the GOCs had been doing it on a legislative basis. Mr Santoro: You hung them. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that the fact that Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: We did not hang the GOCs will not be required by legislation to enough. I will not mention the name that have codes of conduct is a departure from the escaped, but never mind that. recommendations. A level of additional work will be required of Mr FitzGerald: The Premier said they are public servants under this legislation, and I have exempt. some sympathy for them. However, by and large, Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: They are exempt by involving themselves in the production of from the legislation, but that does not mean to these codes, public servants will have something say that they are not to be encouraged. that they own and that they are prepared to abide by. I turn now to the contribution by the Leader of the Opposition. He went to great pains to I turn now to the Office of Public Sector advise us of the code of conduct developed by Ethics, which was recommended both by the the National Party and implemented in 1988. Of commission and in a slightly different form by the course, Mr Fitzgerald found that we needed to parliamentary committee. It has not been do something about ethics. What EARC found included in this legislation. In a sense, the when it examined this issue was that the former question is whether or not the Office of Public code of conduct was not only not well adhered to Sector Ethics is the only way in which the fittingly but also was not well known. Its existence was independent requirement can be achieved. Mr something of a secret. Perhaps that is reflected Borbidge in particular expressed concern about in one of the measures that this Bill and the this matter, as did Mr Santoro. parliamentary committee have recommended, If we look at the role of the Public Sector that is, that the people in the agencies of the Management Commission, we find that it is an Government actually have a hands-on role in the independent statutory body. If our Government development of the codes of conduct under were to move in here and say, "Let us set up a which they will have to operate. They will have an new inquiry, a statutory body, a new committee", ownership of that code. Any other proposal, we can rely on members of the Opposition to rise such as the generic code of conduct that was to their feet and complain about it. In this recommended by EARC, is only to be seen to be instance, we have decided not to do that. Legislative Assembly 10459 17 November 1994

However, for the sake of consistency, members Mr Santoro interjected. of the Opposition rose to their feet and Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! complained about it. The only consistency is that The member for Clayfield has had his turn. The members opposite see their role as opposing member for Caboolture will continue. everything the Government does. The Public Sector Management Commission will be able to Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I was talking about do the job that it is being asked to do under this the codes of conduct to be developed by a legislation. I believe that a two-year run is being committee of this Parliament. If the member for proposed. I am not certain in my own mind that, Caloundra had any understanding of the when that position is reviewed, there will not be a committee system of this Parliament, she would need for some continuing operations know that that process will include members of somewhere. Whether it is in the Public Sector the Opposition. Management Commission or not is yet to be Mrs Sheldon: So far we have not been determined. told about this wonderful new initiative; correct, This Bill does not cover elected officials. I Mr Sullivan? think it has been made quite clear that the Bill that will come before this House—if rumour is Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: No, that is not correct. The member would need only look at correct—in the new year in relation to material in the newspapers or even at the parliamentary committees will—— second-reading speech of the Premier to find Mr Santoro: What's the rumour? information on that matter. So there is plenty of Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: It would be the only material on the public record in relation to the rumour that the member for Clayfield has not development of codes of conduct for elected heard, and having not heard it can be the only officials. explanation for the fact that he has not been The final matter that I wanted to talk about in promoting its existence. relation to the contribution by the Leader of the Mr Santoro: What's the rumour about Opposition was the fact that no new policing elected representatives; that is what I asked. system was set up in terms of ethical matters; that Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There is to be a the Bill relies—as the parliamentary committee code of conduct for elected representatives indicated that it believed it should—on existing developed by the elected representatives processes. The Opposition Leader was critical of themselves. That covers the second of the two the fact that no new thought police were set up. I positions—— simply say to the Parliament that I do not believe it would have been appropriate to have done so. Mrs Sheldon: Are we going to be consulted about this? What arrogance! With those few words, I would like to say that Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Good God! Now I I acknowledge that, yes, there are some am to be lectured on arrogance by Joan variations between this Bill and the Bill that the Sheldon. I am really reaching the end of my parliamentary committee, of which I was a tether. Mrs Sheldon chests herself up to the member, put forward. footrest every day in this Parliament. This Mr Santoro: Why don't you stick up for morning, the Premier gave a short answer—one yourself? that was too short for Mrs Sheldon to Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: As a member of that interrupt—so she had to complain. If one parliamentary committee, I am not at all fazed or peruses Hansard, one will see—— perturbed by those changes simply because, Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER (Ms unlike Mr Santoro, I believe that the Government Power): Order! The Deputy Leader of the has the responsibility to make the decisions. The Coalition! Electoral and Administrative Review Commission Mrs SHELDON: I was saying "down". That makes recommendations, as does the is what that gesture means, Madam Deputy parliamentary committee, but the Government Speaker. has the responsibility to make decisions. Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Let me assure the Mr Santoro: So you can't stand up for House that hand gestures made by the Deputy your recommendations. Leader of the Coalition are far more eloquent Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Mr Santoro is than her words. wasting his own time now because I have Mr FitzGerald: When are you going to finished my contribution. His interjections are start your speech? wasting his time. I support the Bill. Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I am expecting to be Sitting suspended from 1.03 to 2.30 p.m. called off for lunch. 17 November 1994 10460 Legislative Assembly

Mrs SHELDON (Caloundra—Leader of and takes punitive action if it discovers that a the Liberal Party) (2.30 p.m.): The need for close particular bureaucrat has been speaking to the scrutiny of public sector ethics in this State is well parliamentary Opposition. Where, for example, is established. Since the Fitzgerald inquiry and the the clause that addresses this medieval practice? establishment of the Criminal Justice Sadly, there are many such areas. Public Commission, there has been a stream of servants can still get in serious trouble in some complaints about the behaviour of public circumstances if they speak to the media, but not servants. Some have been investigated; most in other circumstances. Public servants have a have been brushed aside. right to expect clear direction from the In Queensland, the public service of the Government. The shortcomings of this Bill mean 1990s is very different from the State that traps remain to capture the unwary, and the bureaucracy of the post-war period. The strict overall effectiveness of the public service will discipline and lines of responsibility of old are continue to suffer as a result. gone. In general, public access to public Although I believe this legislation falls far servants is greatly enhanced, and so are the short of its task, I support the need for more levels of individual responsibility assigned to Government openness and call on the Premier public servants, even at the lower levels. The to take a hard look at other muddy areas that reputation of bureaucracy as slow-moving and should be cleared up. Down in the murky lacking in responsiveness is a cliche that stems depths, the Premier must address issues such from the forties and fifties. However, across as those revealed by the departmental minute the country changes in administrative practice leaked from the Department of Family Services are occurring. It would be an overstatement to which reveals how Labor is actively misusing say that these changes are making the public taxpayers' dollars to fund its 1995 re-election service more transparent. It is more a matter of campaign. The minute, which I tabled in this slowly feeling our way through the gloom. These House, detailed an agenda for a meeting days, the average Queenslander has a growing between Family Services and Aboriginal and awareness of the way the public service works, Islander Affairs Minister, Anne Warner, and largely because the public service of the nineties senior public servants at which the allocation of faces much greater scrutiny than ever before. departmental resources to marginal seats was New technology and increased competition one of several questionable proposals has made the media far more effective, and the considered. activities of public servants at all levels are now According to the minute, public servants part of the daily bread of an increasing number of whose salaries are paid from the public purse journalists whose stories reach a wide audience. were asked to advise the Minister on "election Under this increased scrutiny, and with a growing issues", "politically damaging issues" and range of duties, public servants are entitled to "marginal seat issues" for the department. This new guidelines that make their position clear. raises basic questions about the separation of The directions must come from Parliament and powers under Labor that are frighteningly they must be prescriptive on all levels. By that, I reminiscent of issues raised during the Fitzgerald mean they should be more than just a simple list inquiry. Queenslanders who were promised of dos and don'ts for individuals in the system. squeaky clean Government will be very Public sector ethics are matters of hot concerned at this corrupt activity. It does not sit debate in this Parliament and in many others. To with the high standards claimed by the Premier begin to do its job, this Bill should define group when he presented this Bill. Hypocrisy is laid on obligations and guide the appropriate response with a trowel. The evidence from the minute of public servants to various outside groups such suggests the redirection of public resources to as taxpayers, petitioners, business, the media, support the political aims of the Labor Party and it and even the parliamentary Opposition. In effect, poses the question as to whether other it is another step down the road to a more Government departments have been involved. transparent public service, and the size of the The public service in this State must be free step depends on how many levels the to do its job without political manipulation. In the Government is prepared to address. wake of Fitzgerald, there can be no place in This Bill does not do the job. It sounds Queensland for secret agendas, public service great, but it is not the kind of comprehensive politicisation or the hidden misuse of public guide that public servants need. I am talking funds for political ends. The facts are that the about the need to assist public servants, not to Family Services Minister has not denied that a weigh them down with vague threats. In this meeting occurred at Yungaba Hostel on 12 State, public servants still have to put up with a October. She has admitted that the document Government that spies on their telephone calls that was tabled is, in her words, "a pale reflection" of activities at the meeting. Legislative Assembly 10461 17 November 1994

Queenslanders, and public servants in the skills and confidence to perform their particular, deserve a further explanation. Who role in fostering and supporting community wrote the agenda and on whose orders? Where participation." are the minutes of that meeting, and what other What does that mean? It means that staff are departments have held meetings at which similar going to be trained. Here is another one. It issues were discussed? These are questions states— that the Government has ducked. It demands high ethics from public servants, but it will "Objective: To introduce consultative manipulate them whenever it can. I am sure that mechanisms to facilitate the development of public servants will abide by these ethics. effective community participation at local, However, I suspect that nothing will stop the regional and statewide levels, including the Government from trying to usurp these same non-Government sector." proposals when it suits the ends of the Labor In other words, they are going to ask people to Party. help. Here is a strategy. It states— Casting aside these and other obvious "Improve participation mechanisms at a political issues, such as the Opposition's right to statewide level that recognise consumer expect much more information from advisory bodies and established consumer departments, and the right of public servants to networks in developing service and policy express a political view, there is an overall responses." question that should also be addressed. My This time they are going to ask the people concern is the trend for Government involved. communication to be continually bogged down in convoluted English. Each day we sit, dozens There are many texts available that can help of classic examples of wordy bureaucratic bumf the Government to better communicate with the are tabled in this House. Letters, reports, and people of Queensland. A simple check of my even the speeches of Ministers are often difficult library at Caloundra unearthed 33 different titles, to understand because they are written in a form ranging from Writing in Plain English by Robert of university Creole. Too many bureaucrats, Eagleson to The Pocket Guide to Plain English politicians and departmental consultants in by Jane Cotter and The Complete Plain Words Queensland are writing academic pidgin, when by Sir Ernest Gowers. Plain English expression the public has a right to expect simple English. should not be too much to ask from a Government which, among other Too often, policy makers, whose responsibilities, has control of primary and responsibility it is to communicate with the secondary education in this State. At the people of Queensland, use gobbledegook Committee stage of this Bill, I will be asking the when trying to sell ideas that are short on Premier to consider an amendment, which is just substance. The entire SEQ 2001 report, so an addition to clause 4 of the Bill, in which I will heavily promoted at great expense, is a classic ask the Premier to consider including a clause example. Sixteen volumes were produced in the that would help promote the usage of plain last draft and together they were thicker than the English. two parts of the Brisbane Yellow Pages combined. SEQ 2001 has some meat to it, but it Mr W. K. Goss: Will you take an also has many glaring inadequacies, as the interjection? residents of the Moreton Bay islands and others Mrs SHELDON: Yes. adjacent to certain proposed toll roads will now Mr W. K. Goss: That is actually in the tell the Government. Whether or not SEQ 2001 legislative standards legislation. Your point is a has something effective to say is very difficult for fair one, but it is in legislation. readers to ascertain when they are confronted with an avalanche of meaningless motherhood Mrs SHELDON: I consulted with the statements, waffle and good old bureaucratic Parliamentary Counsel to see if we could bumf. It is a wonderfully thick report, but it is more incorporate this in this Bill. After discussion with an excuse for an expensive series of TV ads to him, he said that it could be put in the clauses support the Labor Party than it is an effort to where it currently is. That is why I am asking communicate future needs to the people of whether the Premier would consider that south-east Queensland. amendment at the Committee stage. In preparing for this address, I have Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly) considered a range of Government publications, (2.41 p.m.): I rise to speak to this debate on the and among them I have found these examples— Public Sector Ethics Bill because I believe it is symptomatic and indicative of this Government's "Objective: To ensure service failure to effectively address the real issues providers, planners and policy makers have affecting the people of this State. Members have 17 November 1994 10462 Legislative Assembly reduced talking around the problem to a new art Parliament, the public servants of this State and form. Once again, we see an increased workload the people of Queensland are concerned. for public servants but a total neglect of This Government is certainly government increased or better services for our constituents. behind closed doors. What is this Government I cannot help noticing that there will be a so afraid of that it will not allow itself the scrutiny significant amount of work involved in relation to of the public through the telecasting of this this proposal. Chamber? Why will it not allow in the television It comes as little surprise to me or to the cameras? Is it because members opposite would wider community that members of the House are have to spend even more time in their make-over excused from the operation of this Act—good for rooms rather than out working for and in the the gander, but certainly not for the Goss. This is electorate? Or could it be that even they a typical example of the utter hypocrisy and recognise that the people of Queensland would contempt that this Government displays for the be, by and large, appalled by their behaviour in fundamental tenets of responsible Government this House, particularly the Ministers? Or perhaps and the rule of law. The Act not having it could even be that it is easier to fool the people application to parliamentarians means that it lacks when one keeps them in the dark. generality and consistency in its application, as it For far too long, the people of Queensland does through its failure to apply to all GOCs— have been enduring the mushroom treatment of Government owned corporations—although I do this Labor Government that has been dished up note that, whereas they are exempt, they may be to them. The Premier is paranoid about the able to undertake a similar code of ethics if they media—let alone the public—knowing so wish. However, they are not compelled to by something that he thinks they ought not know. I the legislation. Government ought to be can think of no other reason why he would go to accountable, honest and open. That is a worthy the lengths that he does to regulate comment on object, and it should be pursued with the utmost this Government to the media. Recently, we of commitment, dedication and relentlessness. have seen a growth in that section of On the issue of honesty, accountability and Government operations. In fact, a new openness—let us have a look at this communications director—one of the Premier's Government's own record before we turn to the former staff members—has taken over that efficiency of the Bill in respect of the Executive. particular most senior position—a new position How can this Government claim to be that was advertised recently. No media releases accountable when it tries to hide how ministerial that have not been vetted by the AWU media allowances are spent? What is this Government Mafia attaches are allowed to go out—active so frightened about that it will not tell suppression of public information and public Queenslanders exactly how its Ministers are comment. Indeed, that is part of the purpose of spending their money on their travel? This this very Bill. Government can pass a million Acts of this In his second-reading speech to this House, nature, but until it can set the most fundamental the Premier said that the Bill provided a examples itself, it will account for nothing. Of comprehensive approach to setting appropriate course, I am sure that we all appreciate that standards of professional ethics which, amongst backbench members of Parliament are other things, included the control of public accountable for their travel; but when it comes to comment by public servants. When this is Ministers, they do not rate the same considered with the fact that the whistleblowers' accountability. Sure, Mr Goss and his Ministers protection legislation does not extend to public might table the bulk figures for their travel servants going to the media, it quickly becomes arrangements for overseas and domestic travel, apparent that this Government is engaging yet but they do not table the matters in detail, as again in a conspiracy to keep the people of backbench members of Parliament are required Queensland in the dark. Any problems that exist to do. It is quite clear that when Ministers table will be hidden—secreted away—from detection their documents for the parliamentary side of and away from prying eyes, away from the public. their travel, they show a nil return. Their There is nothing more sinister than those who ministerial travel side, of course, might show hide behind a veil of respectability and propriety some tens of thousands of dollars—as the whilst practising exactly the opposite of what Premier's does—but there is no breakdown of they purport. This is the record of shame of many that, and there is no accountability of that to this ALP Governments in the past around this Chamber. As I said, backbench members are country, particularly during the 1980s. That is required to be accountable. So we have two sets indicative of the performance of its mates around of standards. When it comes to setting the this country who have pillaged and burnt the standard, that is exactly what the Ministry ought economic and social face of this nation. to be doing—setting the standard so far as the Legislative Assembly 10463 17 November 1994

What deals does this Government wish to previously exist. Not only that, but they can act as hide from public scrutiny that it goes so far to rule makers, rule enforcers and rule breach regulate any comment or escape information deciders. Thus the one person or persons whatsoever? What WA Inc. is waiting to happen delegated may be determining the rules, their in this State, and what deals have been done by enforcement and their administration. I would Labor mates? The only force that the Premier think that raises some problems—or ought to—in believes he is accountable to is his own factional the eyes of Government, because it provides power base, which is crumbling before his own ample opportunity for conflicts of interest to eyes. Accountability is a catchphrase which this occur. Accordingly, no separation exists Government believes it is above. If we are to truly between the legislative, judicial and Executive have accountability, the Government, that is, the functions. Such a scenario is dangerous Legislature, must truly allow scrutiny of its actions because it allows for the greatest potential abuse by the media and the public without the AWU of power. For a Bill which is supposed to make for strong-arm men regulating the information gates, better administration, such potentialities are this Bill regulating public comment by public entirely unacceptable. This concentration of servants, the whistleblowers Acts not affording power could lead to exactly the opposite to that the coverage that they ought to those brave which it is supposed to—to the concealment of individuals who do expose to the media the dirty corruption, maladministration and inefficiency linen of this Government, and no submission of with public resources. everyday activities of Ministers of this House to The Bill goes nowhere towards effective and effectual public scrutiny. guaranteeing the people of Queensland the Leadership has to come from the top, no good government they deserve. Good more so than examples of propriety, honesty, government needs to come by good example accountability to this Parliament and to the from the top, obtaining and retaining ethical and people of this State. Not until such examples are competent staff, and free and open speech. The coming from this House and from the Ministers of Government is not accountable, open or honest. this House can ethical practices be expected as It will not disclose details of its Ministers' the norm. Ethical behaviour should not be, nor expenditures, actively discourages public can it be, merely the preserve of unelected comment on its administration, will not afford officials. This Government ought to be subject to protection to whistleblowers who go to the the same standards it expects of public servants. press, actively controls the flow of information to To have good government, not only does there the media, and will not allow the TV cameras into need to be example, we need to obtain and this House. It does nothing to instil confidence in retain the most competent and ethical of people its administration. To overcome any fears which for top posts in Government. We have seen a are rightly harboured, it engages in fantastic classic example of this not happening over exercises in talking right around the problem and recent months with this particular Government. the issues. In so doing, in this case it has People are being fired, leaving and jumping ship concentrated power and increased the likelihood in droves. If no-one wants to work for this of the abuse of power. I say this to the Government, how can it work for the people of Government: in relation to public sector ethics, it this State? How can it deliver its purported ought to display that which it is requiring the integrity, diligence and economy and efficiency? public service to display with this legislation. The people with the competence, experience This Bill is based on five principles: respect and runs on the board have left or are being for law and the system of Government, respect chased out in their droves, to be replaced in for persons, integrity, diligence, economy and many cases, unfortunately, by Labor mates. The efficiency. Let us look at those five principles for Bill itself is cloaked in a warm, motherhood, a moment. I think that they are very important to innocent-looking subscription to widely held consider, because they are the whole thrust of community values that Government is meant to the legislation. The legislation cannot replace serve the people in an honest, effective, honesty and integrity in dealing with the public; efficient and competent manner. However, it that cannot be gained through legislation. I hope carries far more sinister implications and possible that we might see some more real examples of threats. that occurring in practice and not so many in word The Bill gives responsible authorities a far form. wider discretion of ambit with respect to ethics We find that the codes can be set up by the obligations and determining what ethics officials within the various entities obligations really are. Its generality, the appeal to across-the-board. Of course, Ministers motherhood assumptions, is broad and themselves are involved. That can lead to a accordingly vague. This vagueness gives these range of discrepancies, which could be quite people a degree of latitude which did not considerable. One could find that due to the 17 November 1994 10464 Legislative Assembly variance in the codes many of the public servants In the remaining few minutes I want to touch may find themselves in some difficulty and upon a couple of other points. One cannot help having problems, perhaps through no fault of noticing that within this legislation the their own. Government goes to great lengths to spell out As I mentioned before, the Act sets out that the integrity and ethics needed in respect of the GOCs are exempt, even though the Premier persons and the five principles upon which they mentioned in his second-reading speech that are based. In the past we have found that the they may elect to have their own codes of ethics. Government has put its public servants in I am sure that many of them will. In looking at this situations in which that is not always case. legislation, I think it is quite strange that the Comments have been made from this side of the GOCs—the Government owned Chamber about Mr De Lacy's comments relating corporations—have this exemption, but to the tracing of telephone calls of public academics in universities do not. I appreciate that servants. That is just one side of the story and, of the staff working in the justice system are course, that could also apply to politicians. But covered by the codes but that the judicial officers what happens on the other side, when the public are not, as is right and proper. I would have servant is directed to do that and ethically the thought that perhaps a similar situation may have public servant might have a great deal of difficulty applied to universities, because I know that at the in doing that? I believe that puts a person in a universities people are concerned about this position of having to decide whether to obey a very matter. direct instruction in the case of a law on the margins—such as the invasion of people's The Executive Summary of the EARC report privacy through tracing people's telephone of May 1992 stated that the definition of public calls—whether those people are public servants sector unit means administrative staff of or politicians. I mention that because it is a prime universities and other educational facilities. example of what has happened in the past. We However in EARC's draft legislation it draws no have to look at both sides of the coin in relation distinction between the academic and to ethics, integrity, respect for persons and the administrative staff of universities. I think that that very five points that are the basis of this is an important point and I trust that the Premier legislation. might comment on that in his reply. I know it is of concern to academic staff at universities. Of This week I noticed in the Department of course, I have a university in my electorate. Justice and Attorney-General's annual report that was tabled that some $88m of monetary While this legislation clearly includes all penalties are outstanding. One of the five points university staff, which should encompass local is economy and efficiency. What economy and academics and academics from overseas, they efficiency is there in relation to that? I am not for a are subject to the ethical codes that exist for moment suggesting that public servants are to certain professions, such as lawyers and blame for the situation; clearly the Minister was engineers. In addition, academic employees aware of it and should have taken some action. operate within an ethical code that includes The point that I am making is that it does not point professional ethics applying to academics, to economy and efficiency to have $88m in lecturers and research staff. I appreciate that it monetary penalties owed to the State of would apply to administrative staff and also Queensland, the people of Queensland, over general staff at universities, but there has been the past five years—the term of this Government. no indication given as to why academic staff have That is one prime example. been included, even though the Executive Summary in the original EARC document said In the past few days we have had the that they were excluded. That does not appear Minister himself making statements as a result of to be the view of PEARC nor the view contained my pointing out that in his department in the 12 within this legislation. months from 30 June 1993 to 30 June 1994, the number of senior executive service level I accept that the Premier may say that, personnel increased by 22. The Minister's reply because the universities are separate entities, to my statements appeared in the Courier-Mail. the relevant people are able to draft codes of He said that I was wrong and that ministerial conduct for academic staff that encompass the responsibilities for Justice and the Arts were situations in which they might find themselves. I added to his Attorney-General role. The article do not think that that Act goes the full length of stated— addressing that situation. Judicial officers have been excluded, which is right and proper, but I "Not surprisingly, when I was given the would have thought that the academic staff extra portfolios of justice and the arts, I also would have been excluded also because of their inherited senior executive service officers function and role within those places of learning. from these two portfolios." Legislative Assembly 10465 17 November 1994

The facts are that the rearrangement of that degraded, or even plainly terminated. portfolio was carried out in September 1992. Queensland's public sector lost much of its That is covered clearly in the annual report of experienced managers to be replaced by the 1992-93. That is a clear, blatant untruth. It is politically correct people from a variety of untrue, deceitful and misleading. It is not even sources. Proven managers were replaced by clever; it is totally untrue. I point these things out academic theorists whose plans for because of the serious nature of the business organisational management and change have that we are about at the moment. placed the public sector in its current state of If we are look at the public service itself, I confused limbo. have another fine example in relation to the One only needs to look at the figures and appointment of a staff member, a Ms Moriarty. I the costs involved in creating this politically have raised this issue in this Chamber before. correct public sector. They speak for The Government went to great lengths to have themselves. The number of public servants who one of its friends—a well-known member of the left the public sector between June 1990 and Labor Party—on the selection council for Ms June 1993 on the shaky basis of accepting Moriarty. That person worked closely with her in voluntary redundancy is nothing short of the department. He was able to get on the amazing. A total of 4 277 public servants have selection committee, and it was very little wonder left the public sector. That figure does not even that, in the end, Ms Moriarty was chosen for this include the number of public servants who have more senior position for which she nominated. left statutory authorities. More than 4 277 public Added to that we have the Minister again servants have been moved on. claiming in the media and elsewhere that the The cost to the State in making the public position was advertised in the daily press. That is sector politically correct has been staggering. not so—far from it. In due course, it was proven in The total cost of public servants coerced into this House that that was not the situation. leaving the employment of the State in this What we have are double standards—clear period has set the State back $180,226,300. misleading statements and deceitfulness. There That means that, between 1990 and 1993, over is nothing ethical about this Bill at all. It refers to $180m has been spent to make the public sector diligence, economy, efficiencies, integrity, politically correct. It is an outrage and a disgrace. respect for the person, respect for the law and The cost to individual departments has for the system of Government. The people who been enormous. It has cost the Department of framed those words and statements have to the Premier and Economic and Trade appreciate, understand and abide by those Development $3.4m; the Administrative ideals themselves. They have to set the very Services Department, $6m; Corrective Services, examples which have not been set in the past. $13.5m; Education, $1.5m; Justice and Mere words do not breed excellence. Attorney-General, $3.5m; Primary Industries, Time expired. $15.3m; and Transport, including Queensland Mr LINGARD (Beaudesert—Deputy Rail, $120.5m. Such has been the cost to Leader of the Opposition) (3.01 p.m.): I rise Queensland of this Labor Government's moves today to speak to the proposed implementation to create a public sector that will service the of ethics into the organisational structure of implementation of policy along politically correct Queensland's public sector. The Westminster lines. style of Government, under which the Today, we see before this House legislation parliamentary system of Queensland operates, that will conceivably develop a strong set of requires an independent and impartial public ethical standards that will help officers make sector. Unfortunately, under the Goss Labor decisions and promote a greater understanding Government, an independent and impartial of ethical considerations throughout the public public sector has been non-existent. The sector. This alone is a commendable move. Any structure and composition of the public sector in move that increases and promotes the Queensland has been continually attacked by accountability of the public sector to the people the manipulative and coercive moves of the Goss of Queensland has my full support. It has been Government. It has been the aim, and continues claimed that this Bill will promote the ideals of the to be the aim, of this Labor Government to Westminster style of Government. However, I establish a politically correct public sector—a question just how this Bill will manage to politically correct public sector at all costs. overcome the heavily politicised bureaucracy of From this Labor Government's first term, the the public sector in Queensland. The Goss public sector has been attacked. When this Government has done very little to promote the Labor Government came to office, career public actual ideals of the Westminster system. servants were transferred, reassigned and 17 November 1994 10466 Legislative Assembly

The Goss Government came to power on The Public Sector Ethics Bill has come about the promise of open and accountable owing to the recommendations of the Fitzgerald Government. The sun has set on the 1989 report and the recommendations of the election promises of this Goss Government. An Parliamentary Committee on Electoral and insidious and subversive style of socialist Administrative Review. How in reality is a Bill Government has taken form in Queensland— a proposing the promotion of ethics able to be Government that made the promise of open and implemented in such an environment as is accountable Government that gave the people currently found in the public sector in this State? of Queensland that warm inner feeling for a short The contradictions in this Government are while. That warm inner feeling has been replaced growing daily and the contradictions in policy are by a fear and distrust of this Government—a growing—growing in such numbers that the Government that has allowed a bureaucracy to academics are now even questioning the be built to serve the needs of the Executive direction and the aims of this Goss Government. Government of the day and to legitimise each In 1989, the Labor Government promoted a and every move that the Goss Labor return to Westminster ideals within the public Government makes. sector. What has happened to the return of The five-year systematic purge of the public these Westminster ideals? The Premier has sector, which so effectively administered this stated that this Bill before the House is part of the State under the National Party Government, has ongoing reform in Queensland, which has made been carried out by the Goss Government. That the State respectable again. Mr Goss has stated purge has been so effective in providing this further that the Fitzgerald report dealt with the Government with a politically correct public sector role of the public official under a Westminster it would have been the envy of the Red Guards style of Government. However, Mr Goss in his in Mao's people's revolution in China. second-reading speech on the Bill in this House The Goss Government's public sector stated that the traditional Westminster reforms, under the very disguise of conventions on the organisation and position of implementing Fitzgerald's reforms, has been a the public sector are no longer relevant. At last, very skilful piece of work. Yes, indeed, it has the Goss Government has shown its real been a very skilful piece of work in providing a objective behind this legislation. The hidden newly politicised public sector. Under the agenda no longer remains so well hidden. The direction of the highly politicised PSMC, real agenda of this Goss Government is to rid the appointments to the senior executive service checks and balances that the Westminster have been vetted for the right people. It simply system imposes upon the public sector. cannot be denied that the PSMC is a policy arm The public sector is to be neutral in its of the Labor Party in this State. Of primary service, impartial with advice and is to ensure importance to the PSMC, as it is to the Premier efficient appointment by actual merit under the and relevant Minister, is the perusal of applicants' general principles of the Westminster system. qualifications to ensure that a person's political Under the Goss Government's system of public views or connections are correct. Such sector management, that is not the case. As part qualifications are now of great relevance in of the ongoing reform process, this Bill is being obtaining a position in the senior executive introduced to the House. I can only express my service. Appointment and promotion in the concern at this ongoing process. What are the public sector is supposedly now on merit. An real objectives of this Government? interesting concept is appointment and This Bill actually challenges the principles of promotion on merit. Just as it is wisely said that the Westminster system. The Goss Government beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so too is the desires legislation to be enacted in this House concept of merit. The appointment of the today that will be the staging point for an meritorious mate has become commonplace in eventual breakdown of the Westminster system. this Government. The informal network is drawn The Premier has stated that we live in a society upon and the merit principle is applied to the which is changing rapidly and in sometimes meritorious mates to ensure that the right people unexpected ways and that the Government are appointed. Of course, the person is always needs to respond to events which have never appointed on his or her individual merits. What a occurred before. The wisdom behind attempting sham! What a complete and utter sham! to impose a cultural change within the public The Goss Government's reforms have gone sector in reaction to such societal changes is out of control. The public sector no longer fits moving onto dangerous ground for this Labor into any conceivable model of a Westminster Government, dangerous ground which has style of Government. Mr Fitzgerald, in his report, never been tested except within the theorists' did not desire a politicised public sector, but that textbooks and seminar presentations. The is what Queensland has under this Government. premise that a theoretical model of public sector Legislative Assembly 10467 17 November 1994 management works under the direct guide of the I note that the provisions of this Act are not Executive Government of the day is in direct to cover Government owned corporations. We contradiction to the principles of the Westminster now have a situation in which a large part of the system. public sector is not covered by the proposed The Bill proposes five ethics principles to be legislation. A substantial amount of Government the basis of good public administration. These business is carried out by GOCs, but they are not principles are to include respect for law and to be covered by the ethical principles of the Act. systems of Government, respect for persons, Surely if a group in the public sector required integrity, diligence, economy and efficiency. ethical principles to guide its activities it would be Such principles are to set the standard for the very group that this legislation is not professional ethics standards and to establish covering. the framework for the proper relationship To weigh up the interests of profit making between Ministers and officials. Such standards and balancing the interests of the public is are to do away with the personal moral standards certainly a daily decision for many public servants of individual public servants. under the corporatised regime of this Labor The human decision-making processes are Government. The public sector is now driven not complex and as yet are not completely by the interests of serving the public but by understood. We all make decisions on a variety managerialist, corporatist and economic of issues and subjects as to whether certain rationalist theories. The adoption of private actions are correct or incorrect. We will make a sector management principles into the public moral judgment, and this moral judgment will be sector has obviously created unforeseen made through the use of moral principles or problems. Ethical problems have arisen with ethical standards. Individuals have the choice to such objectives and this Government's need to make moral judgments as to right or wrong. The implement politically correct policies. attempt to bring the moral judgments of public Clearly, this Goss Labor Government, servants under the control of a legislative through its legislation, is attempting to shore up framework is indeed a very bold attempt by this support for itself through the institutionalisation Labor Government to bring about yet further of ethics. These individual codes of conduct may political control of the public sector. well attempt to define what is right and wrong The implementation of the five principles is under particular circumstances. It is of concern to be overseen by the PSMC. I question the just how the question of right and wrong will be correctness of the introduction of these defined and just who will define such terms. The principles by the PSMC when the PSMC is so institutionalisation of ethics presents the public heavily politicised. Just what form of ethical servant with a guide to decision-making, yet such standards will it introduce? The PSMC institutionalisation of ethics presents the ability administering ethical standards will have as much for Governments to abuse the principles to use to the claimed aims of this Bill as would satisfy their own objectives. handing out speeding tickets at the Indy race. I certainly welcome any moves to increase From the engineers of decisions made in the the openness and accountability of the public Heiner, Coyne and Lindeberg matters we are sector. However, I believe that the principles of now to be administered ethical standards. Codes the Westminster system are not being supported of conduct are to be administered and drawn up through the realisation of this legislation but are by senior management of departments under being challenged. The legislation will provide the the guidance of the PSMC. I express my concern grounds on which to readily challenge the at just what ideals will eventually be expressed in foundations on which public administration in these codes. Queensland has stood for more than 100 years. Has this Government really lost control of The Goss Labor Government desires a politically these influential groups within the public sector? correct public sector. The conscience of the public sector is to be the I must express my concern at the possibility PSMC. The Goss Government's reform process of the abuse of the control of ethical standards of of the public sector has destroyed the secure individual public servants. The political agenda of career path of public servants and has led to the Executive Governments of the day may increased insecurity in public sector jobs. This demand adherence to ethical standards which Government's rush towards corporatisation has are not acceptable to individual public servants or created many ethical dilemmas for individual to the people of Queensland. public servants. And the Labor Government Mr LITTLEPROUD (Western Downs) promised that corporatisation would not be on its (3.16 p.m.): Mr Deputy Speaker—— agenda! An incident having occurred in the public gallery— 17 November 1994 10468 Legislative Assembly

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Palaszczuk): Maryborough area. They went to a local group Order! The honourable member for Western that is very keen to help families in Downs will resume his seat. Members of the trauma—"dysfunctional" families is the word we gallery, applause or anything of that nature is use these days. They were having trouble, as do unacceptable. lots of families, with a teenage child. They were Mr LITTLEPROUD: In rising to speak to distraught. This lady told them, "Yes, you need this Public Sector Ethics Bill, I cannot help assistance. Let's go to the Department of Family looking at the speaking list issued by the Whips Services." They arranged for a deputation to take and notice that only two people will speak on their daughter, themselves and this person behalf of the Government and that quite a representing the Tough Love Family Support considerable number will speak on behalf of the Group of Maryborough to a departmental officer Opposition. in Maryborough. In the course of that conversation, in front of this young lass who was My memory goes back to about four or five disturbed, the departmental officer pushed years ago when the first of the so-called reforms papers in front of the parents and said, of this Labor Government were coming forward. "Obviously, you don't want this child. Here, sign At that time, members in the back row opposite adoption papers." Understandably, the parents were jumping up one after the other full of zeal and the other person present were disgusted by and ideology to talk about all sorts of reforms. I that, and so was I. I have raised the matter with wonder whether there is some sensitivity and the Minister. I am still awaiting a response. I have whether all is not as it seems. This afternoon, I also spoken about the matter publicly. That is a have listened intently to the speeches made by glaring example of a lack of ethics on the part of some of my colleagues. They highlighted what I that officer. I hope that the Minister will act to would describe in some cases as hypocrisy. ensure that such an incident never occurs again. Bearing in mind that I do not get many It is to be hoped that the departmental people chances to speak about Family Services matters, are led by example. I thought that I would give a couple of specific I want to relate an event that occurred in this examples of places where I thought that there House this week. I rose in this House on was a definite lack of ethics. Firstly, in an article in Tuesday and spoke about the Link-Up (Qld) the Courier-Mail last Saturday, a gentleman Aboriginal Corporation. I was not critical of the admitted that his own children were taken away organisation, but I was critical of its level of from him and placed with foster parents and that accountability. I also questioned whether the he had complained repeatedly to Family Services Minister had been prudent in her supervision of officers that his child was being abused by the that organisation. As I understand it, the foster parent. The Family Service officers denied Department of Family Services has five officers that claim repeatedly. The same man had been to who are responsible for considering applications see me. I pursued the matter through Family for grants made by organisations such as this. Services. I went to the CJC also. I was unable to They consider an application and virtually work get any sort of admission from Family Services up a contract that outlines what type of service that this man's allegations were correct. the organisation will deliver and inquires whether In that article in the Courier-Mail, written by the organisation will guarantee that it will provide Matthew Franklin, it was reported that this same to the department an audit report every 12 gentleman had used the Freedom of Information months. I am sure that that contract also requires Act to gain documentation from Family Services a performance audit to be undertaken to ensure which showed that, yes, Family Services that the money will be well spent. Department officers did know that the foster I outlined how much money—it was parent was physically abusing this child, and had something like $70,000 over two years—was chosen not to tell the father. Yet he had made provided by the Department of Family Services allegations about it. I think that is a gross example to that organisation. I also questioned whether of a breach of ethics. This young father has every the organisation was living up to its constitutional right to take the matter further. I have written to obligations. I cited the example of a part- the Minister and I will be interested to see what Aboriginal girl who had complained that she had sort of a response she gives. I have asked her sought assistance from the organisation to find what action she intends to take. Will she her white father but was denied that assistance. apologise to this man? Will she charge her The next day, the Courier-Mail carried an article in officers? Will she make changes to the which the Minister was asked to comment. She department? said two things that I have proved since are The next case is another example of things clearly wrong. Firstly, she said that the happening in Family Services that leave much to organisation is there wholly and solely to enable be desired. It concerns a family from the Aboriginals to contact other Aboriginals. Legislative Assembly 10469 17 November 1994

Yesterday in the House, I made a personal fact. It has also been discovered that the person explanation during which I tabled the who is currently the chairman of the board of this documentation that outlines the objects of the organisation is not even listed with the registrar Link-Up (Qld) Aboriginal Corporation. For the of Aboriginal organisations in Canberra as being benefit of the House, I will read from that a legal member of that organisation, yet that documentation. It states— person is chairing an organisation using public "The objects for which the association funds. That is obviously in breach of the is established are: regulations provided under the relevant Federal Act. One would think that the Minister for Family (a) to relieve the continuing suffering and Services would check carefully enough to distress of any of those Aboriginal ensure that the organisation complied with those people who have been separated from sorts of matters as well as honouring its financial their families, especially when young, responsibilities. However, the Minister has the by arranging to reunite them with their audacity to claim in the Courier-Mail that families." everything is okay. I referred to the fact that I believe that this is a I note that the chairman of the Public laudable organisation, and I am sure all Accounts Committee is in the Chamber and honourable members agree with me. The listening very carefully. I intend to put together a objects continue— dossier of supporting information to forward to "(b) to assist all those Aboriginal people him. I have already written to him and he probably who, through destitution or has a copy of my speech, but I will forward that helplessness, need assistance to other documentation to him. It is rather strange obtain such information as may be that, while the Minister was trying to play down available relating to their family history the matter and put a lid on it, the ATSIC people in for the purpose of their gaining greater Canberra are determining today whether or not knowledge of their family and they will investigate this organisation. They hold community as and when requested by real fears, but the Minister tried to play it down. I those individuals concerned." hope the documentation that I provide to the That documentation makes no mention of the Public Accounts Committee will show that there organisation existing only to enable Aboriginals is a need to investigate the organisation, not to contact Aboriginals; it talks about Aboriginal because I want it to fail but because I want it to people needing contact with their families in operate properly. general. The Minister was quoted in the Courier- I wanted to highlight today the need for Mail as saying that the organisation exists only to better ethics in the public service. There is assist Aboriginal people to find other Aboriginal support for this Bill. When various reforms were people. The Minister misled the people of introduced by this Government, members Queensland by making that statement. That is a opposite stood up one behind the other, full of good example of poor ethics. idealism and full of hype. They must be quite I questioned whether or not the Minister and sensitive now, especially in light of the matters her officers were carefully auditing the revealed by my honourable colleagues. Quite operations of the Link-Up (Qld) Aboriginal often, these types of reforms are sold well, but in Corporation. The Minister stated that she had reality they do not live up to the sales pitch. had her officers carry out an audit that very day Mr HORAN (Toowoomba South) and that she could report that everything was A- (3.27 p.m.): The Public Sector Ethics Bill is all OK. My informant read that statement and got about integrity, diligence, efficiency and back to me. That person informed me that the economy. If we are to instil those sorts of organisation is also answerable to ATSIC. In fact, qualities within a good, professional public it must register with the registrar of Aboriginal service, we must have leadership that sets a organisations in Canberra. It has also been good example. I want to canvass today how the relayed to me today that, under the constitution, public sector staff within our health system are any organisation dealing with that registrar must trying to cope with the principles of integrity and each year provide a full list of its members. As doing their best whilst above them, from the well, if someone joins or leaves the organisation, Minister right down through top management, it must inform the registrar of that fact. they are seeing examples of blatant The Link-Up (Qld) Aboriginal Corporation mismanagement. has only six members, three of whom have not One of the real problems that Queensland been seen by the board members for quite some Health has at present is the loss of good, time—for years, in fact. If in fact an audit must be experienced Queensland professional people undertaken, surely it would have picked up that who were thrown out of their jobs after the 17 November 1994 10470 Legislative Assembly change of Government in 1989. The system has experience held by the people holding this suffered since then from a lack of experience position, we also saw a total charade in the and knowledge. Those professional people had process of appointment. worked their way up through small rural hospitals At the moment there is absolute chaos to regional hospitals and then to major hospitals within some of the regional health authorities as administrators. They knew Queensland and, in particular, the Brisbane North Regional intimately. They knew the smaller hospitals and Health Authority. Almost every health authority the larger hospitals. They understood the seems to be a department or a law unto itself. For system properly and what was needed, but that two years the Opposition has been warning talent has been lost. It takes years and years to about the attempted bureaucratic takeovers in regain that sort of talent. the Brisbane North area. They are in fact What sorts of aspirations can public servants happening. That is one of the most important have if they believe that every time there is a health regions in Queensland. There are four change in Government they will lose their hospitals in that region and each is individually positions and what they have strived for? Some managed by a system of an executive. Those people have been transferred out west with their hospitals are the Prince Charles Hospital, the families and have worked their way up the ladder Royal Women's Hospital, the Royal Brisbane only to see their careers placed at risk. One way Hospital and the Royal Children's Hospital. to secure loyal and talented public servants is for Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Palaszczuk): the Government of the day to offer them loyalty Order! Would the honourable member please and recognition in return. This Government has resume his seat? Could I ask the honourable set a dangerous precedent by forcing out good, member what relevance his contribution at experienced Queensland people and bringing present has to the contents of the Bill? interstate people into the system. We have seen the resultant chaos and crisis that will probably Mr HORAN: I am endeavouring to show take years and years to reverse. the need for some loyalty and professionalism within the chief executive management system Perhaps one of the best examples of that is of those four hospitals to be maintained the recent appointment of the Director-General throughout the State. If public servants are of Health. The position was advertised and subjected to a lack of loyalty and professionalism applicants were given time to respond. There from the top, then I do not see how they can were 28 applicants for the position. Many of them provide an ethical service. That is the point I am were from within the Queensland Health endeavouring to make. system—people who aspired to this ultimate If I could just continue on that line—the position. Of those 28 applicants, five people executive system of management in the were placed on the short list. A couple of them Brisbane North area is being broken down and were from interstate, one was from overseas and transferred to the regional health authority, but a couple were from Queensland. Those five that is not happening in any other health people were brought to Brisbane for interviews. authorities. That is causing chaos and crisis. In the end, none of those people was appointed, and the position was given to someone who had Mr W. K. Goss: It's got nothing to do with not even applied for it. What incentive is there for the Bill. people within Queensland Health to aspire to the Mr HORAN: Well, it has absolutely top positions when they know that that is the sort destroyed the morale of the hospital and it has of treatment they may be given? split the whole system of management. It has For those 28 applicants, even applying for also destroyed all principles of ethics in terms of the position was obviously a waste of time. Not giving efficiency, diligence and integrity back to only was it a charade, but the appointment saw a the Government. It has destroyed those person coming into that position who had no principles of ethics because the management, previous involvement within medical despite the fact that there have been committee administration whatsoever. That position took meetings of the public servants as a result of the the place of two former senior positions. Under controversy aroused by this, has taken no notice this Government, the position of director-general of what the public servants have said. If the equates to the position of under-secretary and Government is providing good policy, good director-general under previous administrations. administration, good management and adequate Under previous administrations, those senior or fair funding, then in return the people who positions were always held by people who had work in the system will abide by these principles medical experience. Those positions were of ethics. always held by a previous medical I want to just briefly mention the matter of superintendent or medical administrator. Not the TV advertising that is going on at present only did we see a radical change in the which many people, myself included, consider to Legislative Assembly 10471 17 November 1994 be blatant political advertising of the public Hon. W. K. GOSS (Logan—Premier and hospital system. The people who work in the Minister for Economic and Trade Development) system, who will be required under this ethics Bill (3.37 p.m.), in reply: In summing up, I would like to have certain standards of work and to thank all members for their contributions. I also commitment, see money being spent on blatant wish to thank the Opposition for its support of political TV advertising. They are concerned the Bill, which is an important part of the overall about the people for whom they are caring. How and ongoing program of reform that this can they give 100 per cent diligence, efficiency Government has been implementing following and economy when they see this blatant waste the Fitzgerald inquiry and the Fitzgerald report. of taxpayers' money that they know should be In summing up, I should remind members being spent in their particular area? When they that what we have sought to do by establishing see the lack of beds for people, they ask why. the five ethical principles is to try to help Another area that the hospital administrators encourage and cultivate a new ethical culture. I are completely at odds with is the productivity think members need to understand, in terms of dividend tax. They feel that it is extremely some of the comments that have been made dishonest. We are asking people to be ethical, to about whether there should be independent be totally honest, to give of their all and to work commissions or agencies or more prescriptive long hours without being paid, etc. That amount codes or regulations or whatever, that we cannot of money is in their printed budget, but they legislate for ethical behaviour; what we can do is never ever get it. They want to know why. If we try to legislate for a framework or a vehicle that will are going to ask a team to give 100 per cent, encourage that culture. In these matters, human then the example has to be set from the top. behaviour is not responsive to a law or a There has to be honesty of budgeting. If the regulation passed through the Parliament, it is money is not going to be given, it should not be more responsive to a culture in which the in the budget. That is something that puts a burr participants have some belief and the under the saddle of virtually every hospital participants have some ownership. administrator in this State. The other point that I would make is that we Another area of concern to people within expect that the benefits will be clear and the health system is the need to constantly comprehensive ethics standards for officials at all reapply for positions. They need a degree of levels; ownership and understanding by stability and a degree of loyalty given to them. individual officials of the standards through their Another area of concern is the number of involvement in individual departmental codes; a people in the system who have had pressure put clear basis for chief executives to encourage on them and who have received threats if they exemplary conduct and, where necessary, to go to the Opposition. I think that within our take disciplinary action; as a consequence, a system of freedom of speech in this State, reduced incidence of improper conduct and people should be able to go to their local abuse of office; and, lastly, better performance member of Parliament about any matter, by individual officials. particularly if it is something that concerns As to the individual comments of dangerous equipment. I am thinking of one members—I note the comment of the Leader of example in a region that involved dangerous the Opposition that he supports the Bill with equipment. The person operating that goodwill, that goodwill being immediately equipment was actually in fear of his life. He followed by a long diatribe of bile and bitterness feared that, because it had exploded previously, against various individuals, which commenced the equipment might explode again. That person with the fifty-eighth version of the speech we was warned not to go to the Opposition. That have heard so many times before about the was the only way that pressure could be applied replacement of loyal public servants with these to get that problem fixed because other ways of terrible Griffith academics. As I say, it was just a going about it were simply not working. rehash of old complaints which I have answered I will conclude by saying that if we expect the before. I will not take the time of the House people in the public health system to work under answering it again. difficult conditions and we expect them to give The Leader of the Opposition had another integrity, loyalty and work to the best of their complaint about the PSMC. I think it was an ability, then there has to be some honesty, good inappropriate contribution by him because this is policy, good administration and good a role that is appropriate to the Public Sector management coming from the top. Only under Management Commission and the Government that type of system will the public sector be has rejected and we do reject the approach prepared to give 100 per cent under this Bill. proffered by the Leader of the Opposition, which is effectively another layer of 17 November 1994 10472 Legislative Assembly bureaucracy—something that he rails against established legal duties of all public employees when it suits him in other circumstances. and fairly apply to academics as well. The other point that the Leader of the The Bill recognises that, in a civilised Opposition made was a falsehood that he has society, some categories of public official are tried to peddle elsewhere without much traditionally expected to maintain independence success, apart from in the Sunday Mail, I think, from policy objectives of the Government of the that is, that Mr Kaiser of the Australian Labor day, for example, judges or royal commissioners. Party has a reserved car parking space in the They are expected to be wholly independent of Executive Building. This is one of the big issues Government direction in exercising judicial for which the Leader of the Opposition is famous powers and making findings. University and why he is at his present high standing with academics have traditionally been regarded as the people of Queensland. The fact is that the free to criticise Government policy and Executive Building has two or three visitor car administration. The Ombudsman is responsible parks. When Mr Kaiser visits me, he is to the Parliament, for example, rather than the authorised—in common with many other Government. visitors—to use that particular car park. The first of the ethics principles in the Bill, Various issues were raised by the Leader of that is, "respect for the law and system of the Opposition and other members. Many of Government", recognises that for these and them were raised by a number of members. I will some other categories of public official, a try to pick out the main points and deal with them. measure of independence from Government has One particular issue was raised with me recently traditionally been seen as valuable or, indeed, by the University of Queensland Academic Staff essential to the health of our society. For this Association. It is a matter that was drawn to my reason the obligation states clearly that, in attention yesterday and again today by the general, public officials should uphold the laws of member for Mount Coot-tha, Wendy Edmond, Queensland and Australia and should implement who is on the senate of that university. I believe Government policy faithfully and impartially. another member raised this issue, too. However, the obligation also recognises that where independence from Government is In relation to the concerns expressed by the necessary or is a customary feature of an official's staff association, I make the point that the duty or work, such independence is not inhibited University of Queensland was consulted by the or reduced by the ethics obligations or a code of parliamentary committee. It responded in a conduct. I make the additional point that any submission in April of last year. It appears as such code would be determined by the though there may not have been consultation university, not by the Government, and would be between the university itself and the staff enforced by the university, not by the association. I understand that the association Government. would prefer to have an exemption. Clearly, that is not a reasonable request in all the The Leader of the Opposition raised circumstances. But I think it is appropriate that I concerns about the non-coverage of deal with its concerns and try to respond to them Government owned corporations. We have and place that response on the public record. recognised that these bodies are subject to different functional expectations, different forms Essentially, the concern of the association is of accountability, which are not the same as that the Bill provides insufficient protection, I those that apply to public service agencies. suppose, for academics who wish to criticise However, I do point out that they are exposed to Government policy. That is not a correct view. the disciplines of the market and are additionally The situation in relation to the legislation, and the subject to other legislation—the companies law practice that is proposed, is this: that the or, indeed, their own establishing legislation. Government takes the view that it would not be Given the business orientation of these bodies, reasonable to suggest that all public officials, it is appropriate that they develop their own ethic including academics and teachers, are somehow standards for their staff at the request of their muzzled by this particular legislation or a code of shareholders, in most cases Ministers, rather ethics. No reasonable person, including no than by Government directive. reasonable academic, would have difficulty with I believe that the Leader of the Opposition the suggestion that all public officials, including also raised a concern about consultants and their them, ought to act lawfully and with integrity, use by the Government. I point out that no return a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, take consultants are to be employed in developing into account the public interest in resolving a the code of conduct. We have quite deliberately personal conflict of interest and not abuse their chosen the course of agencies developing their powers. These expectations reflect the own codes. They will get assistance to the extent that they need it from the Public Sector Legislative Assembly 10473 17 November 1994

Management Commission, but the reason for ". . . to assist units of the public sector in the doing it in-house is, I believe, consistent with the discharge of their functions;" commission and parliamentary committee Subsection (f) states that the commission has a recommendations aimed at ensuring an effective role in respect of— understanding and involvement in the development and ownership of those codes of ". . . any aspect of the management of the conduct that the public servants develop within public sector or any part of the public sector their own particular agencies. . . . " A concern was also expressed that My point is that that is well and truly and properly Parliament will not have the opportunity to within the commission's professional approve the codes. I believe that would clearly management role. be burdensome, and I believe it is unnecessary. I thank the member for Mansfield for her Chief executives will be required to obtain the contribution. She made some very pertinent Minister's approval in respect of codes, but chief points about the unfortunate record of the executives will also be required to report on the Leader of the Opposition's former colleagues implementation of their codes in their particular and senior officers. I believe that point was not agencies' annual report to the Parliament, so really necessary to be made, but it had to be there will be accountability to the Parliament. made given the fairly pointed and bitter A concern was expressed in relation to what comments made about a range of individuals by is referred to as rule-bound codes. The codes the Leader of the Opposition, who immediately proposed by the commission and the preceded her. The member for Mansfield went parliamentary committee and which were on to talk about the positive aspects of what we endorsed by Dr Preston have, on the one hand, are all trying to achieve here, namely, the regulatory or disciplinary purposes, and also principles of the legislation and the importance of aspirational purposes. Those codes will be an ethical culture. required to be developed by agencies in I thank also the member for Caboolture for consultation with their staff and clients. They will his contribution. As a member of the permit flexibility of approach as the agencies parliamentary committee, he has an need them. Of course, training will be necessary. understanding of what the Government is trying The point is that the Bill establishes principles, to achieve through this legislation. He made his not rules. point in relation to the establishment of an office I also refer to the complaint by a couple of of public sector ethics. I think that I have members of the Opposition in relation to the explained why the Government has taken the Public Sector Management Commission being particular approach that it has. the appropriate location for the ethics advice I did not hear all of the contribution of the function. I believe that the Opposition generally member for Clayfield, who basically followed the has a blind spot when it comes to the Public National Party line. He did raise one point in Sector Management Commission. From the relation to consultation with local government Opposition's point of view, the Public Sector and questioned whether or not that had Management Commission can do nothing right, occurred. I can inform him, or at least inform the so the Opposition feels compelled to criticise record in his absence, that the local government anything with which the Public Sector sector did make submissions to the parliamentary Management Commission is associated. I believe committee and to the commission. That came it is fair to say that the Public Sector Management from the Local Government Association and from Commission is an appropriate location for this individual councils. The Local Government role. It is a statutory independent commission Association endorsed the EARC proposals, and charged with the oversight of the proper the local government sector was consulted management of the public sector. through the portfolio department in the The objectives and responsibilities of the development of this Bill and supports it. commission are set out in the PSMC legislation. The Leader of the Liberal Party, the Deputy The object of the commission, section 2.13, Leader of the Coalition, spoke on the Bill. One states— particular point that she raised was the subject of "The object of the Commission is to some discussion between us while she was achieve efficiency, effectiveness, economy here, that is, the foreshadowing by her of the and impartiality in the management of the need to amend the legislation to include a public sector of Queensland . . ." requirement for plain English in addition to the As to the functions of the commission, section economy and efficiency principles. As I said, the 2.14, subsection (g) states— Government supports the general thrust of the member's point, namely, drafting material in plain 17 November 1994 10474 Legislative Assembly

English. However, I make the point that in that professional ethics for public officials do no relation to legislation, which is the most important more to supplant their personal ethical standards function the Government undertakes, the than do professional ethics codes for any other requirement that the member seeks is provided profession, whether it be lawyers, doctors or for in the legislative standards legislation. whatever. Going beyond legislation to other The last contribution was from member for documents, I think that it is fair to say that the Toowoomba South, who thought he was Government has a commitment to doing that, speaking in the Appropriation Bill or some piece but, with respect, I think that it elevates the point of Health legislation and appears to have to an importance that is out of proportion to accidentally wandered into the Public Sector actually include it in the Bill. I am not rejecting the Ethics Bill debate with a speech on another Act. spirit of the member's amendment; I am not It was interesting at least, even though it was rejecting the importance of it. I am saying that I do quite out of order. not think it really warrants an actual amendment. In conclusion, I thank all members for their In formal terms, I am rejecting the amendment, contribution, and I thank the Opposition for its but in more general terms I accept the support for the legislation. importance and value of that particular approach. Motion agreed to. We then heard from the member for Indooroopilly about a number of things. He did make a criticism about the Bill not applying to Committee members of Parliament. I would remind him that Hon. W. K. Goss (Logan—Premier and the Government has announced that there will Minister for Economic and Trade Development) be an appropriate code in relation to members of in charge of the Bill. Parliament, but, after weighing it up, the Government came to the conclusion that this is a Clause 1— matter that should be properly determined not by Mr BORBIDGE (3.57 p.m.): Earlier in this the party in Government, not by the Cabinet debate, I did indicate in response to the Premier alone, but by an all-party parliamentary that I would table a particular document. I know committee. We believe that this is something to that he seems to be bogged down with the which members opposite should have a parking arrangements at the Executive Building, reasonable opportunity to make a contribution. I but I do table a register of car parking have said publicly, and it is on the record in the arrangements that shows that a vehicle 309-AUZ Courier-Mail, that the proposal for the code to registered to Mr Kaiser and a vehicle 387-CAJ cover members of Parliament would be covered registered to Mr Swan are able to park in bays by an all-party parliamentary committee and that I 14B and 14A and that Mr Kaiser's space, quite would expect that if the parliamentary committee contrary—— accepted this proposal, the code would at least Government members interjected. contain those same ethical principles that applied to public servants in the Bill that is before the Mr BORBIDGE: The Premier wanted this House. In terms of the potential code of ethics withdrawn. The Premier was sufficiently worried, and in terms of the way they are dealt with, I think he found it objectionable, and he wanted it that that is something that all members should withdrawn because I did not have my facts right. have a right to have input into, and that is what Here are the facts. The Premier said that what I we will be doing. was saying about these car parking arrangements was simply untrue. What I am We also heard from the member for saying is that this is the document that shows Beaudesert and the member for Western that the Premier has misled the Parliament. Downs. The member for Beaudesert raised a particular point in relation to personal and moral Mr W. K. GOSS: What I took exception to standards of officers. The suggestion was that and what the Leader of the Opposition was they would somehow be supplanted by this properly compelled to withdraw was his false and legislation. That is, of course, quite wrong—quite dishonest assertion that there was a car park a fallacious analysis. This legislation does not provided on a permanent basis for particular legislate and does not purport to legislate for individuals. The truth is, as I have previously told morality. The Act and the agency-based codes the House, that there are visitor car parks in the specify a range of professional ethics standards Executive Building that are available to visitors. I for the guidance of public officials who have to presume that the document that he tables make decisions and exercise their powers over confirms the fact that occasionally Mr Kaiser and the rights and interests of ordinary citizens and Mr Swan are amongst those visitors. Let me who are people in a position of privileged access assure the Leader of the Opposition that they will to taxpayer-provided resources. I make the point be for a long time to come. Legislative Assembly 10475 17 November 1994

Clause 1, as read, agreed to. about—with all audiences is already really implicit Clauses 2 and 3, as read, agreed to. in the principles. It comes under "diligence", it comes under "efficiency", and so would many Clause 4— other strategies or aspects of public Mrs SHELDON (3.59 p.m.): I move the administration come within those ethical following amendment that I have circulated— principles, but, of itself, I do not think that it can "At page 8, after line 2— be elevated to the point of being an ethical principle. insert— The only other thing that I would say is that ' ¥ Plain English.' " there would be agencies where it would be more Part 2 of the Bill, under "Declaration of important than it would be for others to have a ethics principles", states— requirement to communicate effectively, for "4(1) The ethics principles mentioned example, the Health Department dealing with in subsection (2) are declared to be non-English speaking people, or other cases fundamental to good public administration." where the clients of the particular agency may not have the facility for English or communication I put the proposition that if we are going to that public servants or other people have. That have good public administration, then, indeed, would be a situation in which it may be all documentation, reports etc. should be written appropriate, given the agency, to include in plain English so that people can readily access something in more detail or some reference to them and find out the information contained that in the individual agency's code of conduct. therein. Too often one gets a report—and I have However, in terms of the overall Bill, I do not think had this said to me by a number of it is appropriate to say that it is an ethical principle. constituents—and because of the convoluted As I said before, it is a strategy or an aspect of language, the gobbledegook, in the report it is good public administration. I accept the spirit of very difficult for people to understand what the what the member says, but it is not appropriate to report is about and to find a particular aspect of take it to this length. information that they might want from it. Mrs SHELDON: I hear what the Premier One would think that, in an effort of says, that plain English is not an ethical principle. economy and efficiency, plain English would be One could say that neither are "economy" and a reasonable addition to that dot point. In no way "efficiency", but the Premier has intimated in does it detract from the Bill. In fact, I think it adds what he has said that plain English could fit into to what the Government is trying to achieve. I ask those categories. I think that unless a very clear the Premier if he would consider accepting that directive is there—— amendment, which I would like to move. Mrs Edmond: It is already in the Mr W. K. GOSS: I tried to answer this guidelines. briefly before. I will answer it in a bit more detail. I Mrs SHELDON: Excuse me, it is not in think the simplest and kindest thing that I can do the legislation; I am trying to put it into the is to point out that plain English is not an ethical legislation. Because I think that the concept of value. plain English across-the-board in all aspects is so Mrs Sheldon interjected. important, particularly in all the reports that Mr W. K. GOSS: That is an interesting departments put out and the communications interpretation of ethics. I think the point is that that go on, unless it is mentioned clearly and plain English is not an ethical value. specifically in this Bill, it is not going to occur. I However—and this is what I tried to concede to hear what the Premier says about the spirit and the member before—it is a worthwhile strategy to the intent, but I think he would know that with the achieve other purposes. I said before and I will pace of life, unless there is a clear direction given say again that it would be inappropriate to single from on high, this does not really occur. I ask the out for specific attention this particular strategy Premier to give further consideration to for ensuring just one aspect of public accepting this amendment. administration. We may as well include half a Amendment negatived. dozen others and end up with a very long list of Clause 4, as read, agreed to. principles. However, I think that we would dilute the effect of it. Clauses 5 to 11, as read, agreed to. Insertion of new clause— I think the other point that can be made fairly, and I would ask the member to accept this, Mrs SHELDON (4.04 p.m.): I move that— is that the requirement to communicate "After clause 11, at page 10 line 4, effectively—which is really what she is talking insert— 17 November 1994 10476 Legislative Assembly

'Respect for Plain English. 11.A In performing his or her public Third Reading duties, a public official should ensure that, Bill, on motion of Mr W. K. Goss, by leave, where practical, documents produced for read a third time. the public are written in plain English.' " I think that this proposed amendment sets out more clearly the intent of what I am saying. WHISTLEBLOWERS PROTECTION BILL We are speaking here about public ethics—this Second Reading Bill is titled the Public Sector Ethics Bill—and we Debate resumed from 19 October (see are speaking about public officials ensuring that p. 9699). where it is practical to do so, documents produced for the public are written in plain Mr BORBIDGE (Surfers Paradise— English. One only has to look at the absolute Leader of the Opposition) (4.10 p.m.): It has wardrobe full of reports that we receive every taken this Goss Labor Government almost three year to realise that plain English would make years from the time that the Parliamentary them much clearer and the information contained Committee for Electoral and Administrative within them easier to obtain. Plain English would Review completed its report to bring this also fit into the principles of economy and legislation into Parliament. When Labor was in efficiency. Surely if we put things in plain, clear Opposition, protection for whistleblowers was English it is going to cut down on the volume and regarded to be important and separate legislation the verbosity of these articles for publication, was regarded to be urgent. which really must cost us as a State a In 1990, the Whistleblowers (Interim considerable amount of money. I respectfully ask Protection) Act, which increased the protection the Premier to consider including proposed for persons assisting the CJC, was enacted. clause 11.A, and I move that that amendment be EARC presented its report in October 1991 and accepted. the Parliamentary Committee for Electoral and Mr W. K. GOSS: I think that in her last few Administrative Review finished its report in April sentences the Leader of the Liberal Party made 1992. In terms of good administration, this my point for me, that is, that this particular aspect important legislation should have been of public administration, or this suggestion that introduced at least two years ago, at least if we she makes, comes within the concepts of are to believe the rhetoric of the Premier when diligence and efficiency. I think that she is right. he was the Leader of the Opposition. That is what I said before. A public servant acting At the end of December 1991, Evan diligently, a public servant seeking to act in an Whitton reported that the Goss Government was efficient way—which includes efficiently and examining legislation to protect potential accurately communicating with clients and all whistleblowers. Like so much that the Premier audiences—will seek to do so in plain English. In does, this was obviously just image building at other words, I think that the member's own that time. Earlier, in May 1990, the Premier, when argument necessarily implies that diligence and speaking about whistleblower legislation, said— efficiency cover this matter. "It is frustrating when you move from I say again that this is not an ethical principle the luxury of Opposition to the reality of but an appropriate goal and it is the sort of thing Government that you find you cannot do that would be appropriate to particular some things as quickly as you would like." agency-based codes. I would also make the This Government has sat on its hands for two point that the member's amendment assumes years trying to work out how to have that everybody understands plain English. They whistleblower legislation that would constrain do not. and contain whistleblowers to the confines of the Mrs SHELDON: Very briefly, I think that public sector. the Premier gives a lot of credence to my point in The effect of this Bill will be to restrain the fact that if people do not understand plain whistleblowers from making a disclosure about English, how on earth are they going to maladministration or any other matter, rather than understand a lot of the convoluted verbosity that encouraging them to do what is right in the public is in the documentation that is put forward? I think interest. It will constrain public service that unless this is given the prominence of a clear whistleblowers to the confines of public service direction, then indeed it will not occur. structures. The process provided under this Bill Amendment negatived. will frustrate genuine whistleblowers. There is Clauses 12 to 25, as read, agreed to. room for them to be given the run around, fobbed off and counselled out of the disclosure. Bill reported, without amendment. For a Government that promised so much, it is a Legislative Assembly 10477 17 November 1994 very disappointing Bill in terms of policy and then Leader of the Opposition said in his 1989 operation. The most disappointing aspect is that policy speech. He stated— it does not eliminate or neutralise fear. This is a "The starting point for rebuilding the major weakness of the Bill. It does not remove integrity of our Government and major fear. institutions will be the implementation of the I remind the House of a public sector Fitzgerald reform process. In Parliament I incident in 1992 when the Rural Doctors pledged my commitment to implement Association President, Dr Col Owen, said that Fitzgerald, and today I reaffirm that rural doctors had been virtually gagged to stop commitment." them making public details of how money had In Parliament, the then Opposition Leader said— been diverted into a new layer of bureaucracy. They were gagged for speaking out in the public "At the outset I should record the interest and were fearful about their jobs. This support of the members of the parliamentary heavy-handed approach came straight from this Labor Party for this report and our Labor Government, and this Bill before the commitment to its implementation. That House reflects Labor's Big Brother approach. decision was taken by a full meeting of the parliamentary Labor Party yesterday and it Whistleblower legislation is supposed to should be placed on record." give public servants the right to speak out in the public interest on those matters which have In the report of a commission of inquiry, it was become prolonged problems. It is the concern of recommended that there should be legal the Opposition that it will prove as ineffectual as it protection for whistleblowers. In particular, it was is in other jurisdictions. This Bill gives said that the proposed EARC should prepare whistleblowers no support or help in making a legislation for "protecting any person making disclosure. If as a consequence of making a public statements bona fide about misconduct, disclosure there are reprisals, once again there is inefficiency or other problems within public no help or support to help prove the existence of instrumentalities, and providing penalties against the reprisals. This Bill is more about protecting knowingly making false public statements". This the Goss Labor Government from disclosures by recommendation was substantially implemented whistleblowers than it is about protecting in the Electoral and Administrative Review Act whistleblowers, the public interest, or ensuring 1989, which lists in its Schedule— good public administration. "16. Protection from victimisation of This is "do not rock the Goss Labor persons because of statements made in Government boat" whistleblower legislation. It is good faith concerning dishonesty, "let's keep disclosures in-house" whistleblower misconduct, inefficiency, or other deficiency legislation. This Bill, in terms of its propensity to in public administration, and penalising be inward looking, is similar to the restrictive persons who make wilfully false statements freedom of information legislation. As the House concerning such matters." knows, freedom of information has been The key point of the recommendation is that emasculated by open-ended cost structures and whistleblowers, unless they are given formal the habit of pages being presented to inquirers legal protection, may suffer reprisals from the unit with vast sections blacked out "in the public or department to which the whistleblowers interest". It has become a "freedom from belong. information" system. The Bill before the House does provide When the EARC report was released, the some protection, but there is nothing in the Bill, then parliamentary committee chairman, Mr as I said before, that helps them with the fear and Foley, said that the recommendations aimed to stress of making the disclosure. There is no strike an appropriate balance "between the counselling unit—no support for them at all. This public interest in the disclosure of misconduct Bill is not of the quality and content of the draft and the competing interest in maintaining the Bill proposed by the Parliamentary Committee for reputations of the individuals". Minister Foley, as Electoral and Administrative Review. Only time he is now, is watching the progress of a Bill which will prove if this Bill is better than nothing. is more concerned about the reputation of the The Premier's introductory speech was Government than the rights of individuals. almost apologetic, very defensive and certainly This Bill is a wimp. It falls far short of the kind intimidatory. It was apologetic in that he knows of whistleblowing legislation that the Labor Party the Bill before the House is not of the standard and the Premier, prior to 1989, intimated was that he talked about prior to 1989. The Premier necessary for good public administration in knows this Bill is a cop-out and a wimp. His Queensland. I will quote to the House what the speech was defensive in that the Premier knows that he has let down many people who 17 November 1994 10478 Legislative Assembly supported him in 1989 and who are now because of disclosures of the conduct dismayed at the hypocrisy of the Labor or danger; and Government that he now leads. These people (c) compensating persons who suffer are prominent in what is known as the reprisals because of disclosures of the Whistleblowers Action Group. His speech was conduct or danger; and intimidatory and threatening with respect to the unresolved whistleblower cases, namely, those (d)ensuring that disclosures of the relating to Gordon and Harris, and the Lindeberg conduct or danger are properly case. investigated and dealt with; and The Premier said that the Bill provides the (e)protecting employees who resist most comprehensive legal protections for employers' attempts to involve them in whistleblowers presently enacted anywhere in the commission of offences from Australia, and possibly anywhere in the world. reprisals that might otherwise be That is wrong. That is simply not correct. The inflicted on them because of their United States has led the way. resistance; and The difference between the draft (f) compensating employees who suffer parliamentary committee Bill and that before the reprisals because they resist attempts House is stark. The first substantial difference is by employers to involve them in the the object which in the Bill before the House is commission of offences." notable for the economy of the words, and the The parliamentary committee's draft includes bias to the Government. The object is stated whistleblower principles which are noticeably as— absent from this Bill. ". . . to promote the public interest by Turning to consider the matter of protecting persons who disclose— disclosures—there is a salient difference unlawful, negligent or improper between the Bill before the House and the draft conduct affecting the public sector parliamentary committee Bill. This relates to the disclosure to the media or "any person" of danger to public health or safety "information that the person honestly believes danger to the environment." on reasonable grounds tends to show a serious, This Government's form is nothing like the specific and immediate danger to the health or version in the drafts of EARC and the safety of the public". This was an EARC parliamentary committee. The object, as recommendation supported by the parliamentary contained in this Bill, epitomises the committee after considering submissions on the Government's approach—restrictive. issue. EARC said— On the other hand, the parliamentary "The use of the power of the media to committee's draft gave an outlook of an Act that reach the largest number of people as was about ensuring good administration and quickly as possible should be permitted . . . furthering the public interest as well as protecting where there is a serious and immediate whistleblowers. For the benefit of the House I will danger." quote it, as it shows the different emphasis The parliamentary committee accepted this between the Bill that we are dealing with and the reasoning—rejected by this Government, which one that was proposed. It is a little long, but for promised so much when it was in the benefit of members of the Government who Opposition—and agreed that where disclosures parade their so-called support for the public satisfy these tests, protection should be interest and accountable Government, I point out extended regardless of where the disclosure is that it says— made. That is the recommendation of the all- "The principal object of this Act is to party parliamentary committee. It must be further the public interest in encouraging the emphasised that EARC departed from the disclosure, investigation and correction of requirement that disclosure be made to a proper illegal conduct, improper conduct in the authority only where there is a serious, specific public sector and danger to public health or and immediate danger to the public. safety by— When EARC and the parliamentary (a) establishing procedures and committee did their reports, this approach was organisations that facilitate and acceptable, but since then there has been an encourage the making of disclosure of erosion in the quality of public administration to the conduct or danger; and the extent that public sector officers are speaking out. The Bill before the House does (b)protecting persons from reprisals that not allow this; it ignores this proposition might otherwise be inflicted on them completely. Under this Bill, there is no protection Legislative Assembly 10479 17 November 1994 for an officer who speaks out on a matter of We agree. serious and immediate danger. The level of At the Committee stage, the coalition will be paranoia by this Government is such that it clearly moving an appropriate amendment, and it is to does not trust its employees. be hoped that this Government, which has When EARC and the parliamentary promised so much and delivered so little to committee did their reports, this approach was whistleblowers and to good administration in acceptable, but since then we have seen what Queensland, will accept the amendment in the happens. We have seen the erosion in the spirit of what it said when in Opposition about the quality of public administration; we have seen reform process rather than in the comfort of senior public sector officers speaking out about Government. their concerns in respect to the erosion in health I turn now to speak about a very serious services, police numbers, on law and order matter, that is, the decline in the respect for the issues, in respect to the prison system—right Criminal Justice Commission by whistleblowers. across the spectrum of public administration in In his introductory speech, the Premier also Queensland. The level of frustration felt by some alluded to the fact that "some Queensland officers in key service areas is such that they are whistleblowers consider that the CJC is not the not going to put up with the months and years of appropriate body to investigate whistleblower bureaucratic processes imposed on them, the allegations." budget cutbacks and cuts in services. They have had enough. They have argued their case On Channel 7, a documentary titled The through the system at meeting after meeting and Report highlighted the frustrations of two former have turned to the Opposition and the media. police officers with their disclosures to the CJC. Quite clearly, there should be some protection We have seen the Coyne/Lindeberg case being for such officers. This Bill is fundamentally flawed given what appears to be only superficial because it does not give protection for an officer examination. It was said in this place yesterday who has made the disclosures, argued his case that the documentary The Report was just a story through the appropriate channels and got about a couple of officers who did not get their nowhere. own way or did not like the outcome of the CJC's investigation. This is not so. The The Opposition, however, does not support Coyne/Lindeberg case and the Gordon Harris the view of the Australian Journalists Association and John Reynolds case is about honest people in its submission to EARC where it argued that trying to get justice. What is happening? They whistleblower protection should extend to are being denied natural justice by the brick wall persons making accurate public statements to of silence and obstruction that has been thrown the media. It questioned why serious matters of up by key investigating bodies in this State, public administration, ultimately the responsibility including the Goss Labor Government. of the public and their elected representatives, should be kept from that public and from at least A Government member interjected. most of their elected representatives. Whilst the Mr BORBIDGE: The honourable member Opposition appreciates and respects the view of is part of it. It saddens me to say that there the AJA, it does not support open-ended access appears to be this erosion of confidence eating to the media as it proposed. We do believe, away at the credibility, the impartiality and the however, that as a last resort, after exhausting fairness of the Criminal Justice Commission. every "appropriate entity" through which a In passing, I mention the foxtail palm affair. disclosure can be made, an officer may make a The Opposition believes there was a cover-up disclosure to anyone in the media. History shows and, as has been the case with other persons that officers go to the media with a disclosure with grievances which impacted on the only as a last resort, and the history of Government, the person making the disclosure whistleblowing in Queensland supports that has come out the worse for the experience. It view. As the House will recall, the Fitzgerald must be said that in most instances officers process was furthered by whistleblowers who making disclosures are not usually senior went to the media. The Courier-Mail in its editorial officers. They are middle management and lower said— and do not have the wide-ranging professional "The proposition that whistleblowers support to sustain them. For them not to be should only blow their whistle in the close believed is very difficult from both a professional confines of the State Government's hearing and personal standing. I mention the name of Mr is, commonly, frankly offensive. It is a Pat Shears, who is known throughout Cape York mechanism designed to control what is as an honest man and as a person who was allowed to become public knowledge . . . dedicated to his work. For this reason, the the Government should think again." Opposition is proposing that there should be another entity that an officer can approach other 17 November 1994 10480 Legislative Assembly than the CJC. In particular, we are referring to a Commissioner for Administrative Investigations is public interest disclosure of a type that can be a suitable place for disclosures—— made to the Criminal Justice Commission. The Mr Beattie: That would be typical of you, Opposition is of the view that an officer should wouldn't it? be able to approach the office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Mr BORBIDGE:—even if the sycophant Investigations rather than the CJC. The interjecting is prepared to betray the Opposition believes that there should be whistleblowers of this State in the name of provision in the Bill to allow for a person to go to serving his own party and his own Government. that office rather than the CJC. At the Committee If this Goss Labor Government does not stage the Opposition will be introducing such a accept the foreshadowed amendment, the clause and it is hoped that it will strike a chord coalition, in Government, will make the with the Government and that our amendment appropriate amendment to this Bill. will be accommodated. In his 1989 election speech, the Premier Mr Beattie: Not likely. said that the previous Government had let Mr BORBIDGE: That is what I would people down, and he went on to say—and this is expect. One of the great frauds of the particularly relevant following the interjections Queensland Parliament is interjecting. from the member for Brisbane Central— Mr BEATTIE: I find those comments "In the words of a great Australian offensive and untrue and I ask for them to be singer, John Farnham, Queenslanders are withdrawn. saying; Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Palaszczuk): We are not going to sit in silence, Order! The member for Brisbane Central asks for We are not going to live with fear." those comments to be withdrawn. I ask the That is exactly what is happening today. People Leader of the Opposition to withdraw them. are sitting in silence, people are living with fear, Mr BORBIDGE: He is just one of the and what is more, this Bill does not help. Each smaller frauds of the Queensland Parliament. I member of the Goss Labor Government should withdraw. hang his and her head with shame at the mess it Mr BEATTIE: I ask for the second has made of public administration in comment to be withdrawn. This is typical of this Queensland. member. Another flaw in the Bill and a deviation from Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The the EARC and the PCEAR drafts is the omission second comment has also been withdrawn. of a whistleblowers' counselling unit. In these drafts it was said that the unit should be within Mr BORBIDGE: Is the member hard of the Criminal Justice Commission. As I said hearing as well? before, there appears to be a growing lack of The Opposition feels so strongly about this confidence in the Criminal Justice Commission matter and the way that people have been with respect to whistleblowing or public interest betrayed by the likes of the member for Brisbane matters, and it is our considered view now that Central that we will be arguing during the this unit should not be located within the CJC. To Committee stage that the Office of the substantiate this opinion, I quote what was said Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative by Phil Dickie, former CJC employee and Investigations cannot refer the disclosure to the journalist— CJC without the consent of the person. We have "Painful as it is to say it, the CJC is as not arrived at this conclusion lightly. We have good a place to have an allegation buried as given it serious thought and listened to the it is to have it investigated." frustrated views of whistleblowers and other persons who are concerned with the issues of Mr Barton: Read the rest of the article. accountability, good administration and Mr Beattie: Selective quoting is normal. disclosures in the public interest. You couldn't lie straight in bed if you tried. Social work lecturer Bill De Maria said that Mr BORBIDGE: They are not the words of the existing and planned State laws were the Opposition, they are the words of Phil Dickie. deficient because they fail to recognise the need The honourable member should not get excited. for independent bodies to hear whistleblowers' What a bag of hot air the member up the back is. complaints. He went on to say that We believe that the unit should be located whistleblowers "gave the CJC the thumbs down in the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner across the board." For this reason, we believe for Administrative Investigations. During the that the Office of the Parliamentary Committee stage we will be moving an Legislative Assembly 10481 17 November 1994 amendment to this effect and, once again, it is to What is now clear is that the Goss be hoped—but from the pitiful interjections from Government did mislead the State Archivist on the sycophants opposite it is clear that principle 23 February 1990 by deliberately withholding is about to come a poor second to political key information concerning foreshadowed court expediency again—that the Government will proceedings. The shredding was approved on accommodate the proposed new clause—but I false information, which represents a clear case very much doubt it—to provide the necessary of obstructing justice. I call on the Premier to support for persons making disclosures. table all the Crown Solicitor's advice, because we This Government rode in on accountability, are left with two inescapable conclusions. Either, it rode in on its great white horse, and what have the Crown Solicitor advised the Government to we seen? We have seen duplicity, hypocrisy and shred, and thereby made himself a party to the double standards all the way through. offence of obstructing justice, or he advised not to shred until a settlement was reached with Mr Mr FitzGerald: Stumbling old nag now, Coyne. I challenge the Premier to table all the isn't she? Crown Solicitor's advices and I challenge him to Mr BORBIDGE: Yes, the white horse of confirm to this House that there is no further accountability is off to the knackery courtesy of advice after 16 February 1990. the likes of the honourable members who sit I draw the attention of the House to the all- opposite and the Premier, who in charge of this party Senate whistleblowing committee's legislation. unanimous conclusion that this Government Those of us on this side of the House firmly should establish independent reviews of certain believe that there should be such a unit to whistleblower cases, prominent among which counsel, support and provide the necessary were the Lindeberg and Harris cases. This is not advice to those officers who believe it is in the the view of the National Party or the Liberal Party public interest to disclose a particular matter. The or the Democrats alone, it is the unanimous Opposition gives the undertaking that, in recommendation of an all-party Senate Government, we will make this and the other committee. In his speech, the Premier was most amendments we will be moving to this Bill if they dismissive of the all-party Senate whistleblowing are not adopted now. The Opposition has seen committee's recommendations, and one can the rampant hypocrisy of this Government with only ask why. It could be that the Goss Labor respect to good administration, and in giving the Government will regret the high-handed undertaking to make the necessary approach it took. amendments, we do so sincerely. Mr Deputy Speaker, with your In recent times, there have been before the permission—and to assist some of the poor Senate select committee on public interest members opposite—I seek to table a document whistleblowing cases particularly pertaining to dated 11 November 1994 and titled "A Public Queensland. Those cases involved people who Interest Disclosure to all Honourable Members of could not get a decent hearing here in this State. the Queensland Legislative Assembly and the There are two prominent cases, the Gordon Queensland People—The Shredding of the Harris case and the Lindeberg case. The House Heiner Inquiry Documents and Tapes" by Kevin will recall that the Lindeberg case relates to the Lindeberg. shredding of the Heiner inquiry documents and I turn now to consider the Gordon Harris and tapes ordered by the Goss Cabinet on 5 March John Reynolds cases. As said before, this is 1990 in order to reduce the risk of litigation. another struggle for justice and for what is right. It The CJC allegedly looked at this matter would be to the advantage of justice and for what three times, but the facts show that the CJC has is fair and reasonable that Messrs Harris and never thoroughly investigated the matter in Reynolds are allowed to read what is termed making its finding of no official misconduct "The Report", although this matter, in the totality against the Goss Cabinet and Minister Warner in of their case, is a mere drop in the ocean. particular. Driven by the pursuit of natural justice The CJC commissioner, Mr Rob O'Regan, in and what is right, Lindeberg approached the an interview yesterday, said— Senate whistleblowing committee with his disclosures and provided detailed evidence "So far as the commission is which is now on the public record. The CJC concerned, it doesn't matter two hoots provided a response to Lindeberg's evidence to whether that report is disclosed or not. We the all-party Senate committee, and, after have nothing to hide. It is entirely a matter considering all evidence before it, that all-party for the Attorney (Attorney-General) and the Senate committee rejected the CJC's findings. Director (of Prosecutions)." Mr O'Regan said that he could not give two hoots. He went on to say— 17 November 1994 10482 Legislative Assembly

"All I wish to point out, from the there has to be a change of attitude. In particular, commission's point of view, it doesn't matter the attitudinal change must be at Government if it is produced or not. We have no level. That change simply has to be to open objection." Government and not what we have seen again The commissioner was questioned as to whether today and what we see every day in this State, it contained anything that would prevent it from that is, Government by paranoia. being released in the public interest, and Mr If this Goss Labor Government had an open O'Regan said— mind about whistleblowers' protection "I think it is quite an innocuous legislation, it would have consulted about its Bill, document myself . . . my recollection is it is instead of secretly passing it around certain simply legal advice." selected Senior Executive Service members—around the mates club. That was the In the public interest, I call upon the Premier and consultation process—"Listen fellas, we have to the Attorney-General to make that document bring in whistleblowers legislation, but we have available to Messrs Harris and Reynolds. to protect ourselves. Does this Bill do the deal? A Government member: No chance. Will we be okay?" If this is the last hurrah of Kevin Mr BORBIDGE: No chance! That is what I Rudd, the former Director-General of the Cabinet would expect. Surprise, surprise; the great Office, now the Labor Party's nominated champions of accountability! Two whistleblowers candidate for the Federal seat of Griffith, it must have been persecuted, and then we have that be said that he failed the people of Queensland sort of response. What has the Government got as a public servant, but he did a good job in to hide? What is it covering up? Who is it enabling this Government to control and contain protecting? What mates is it protecting? What is whistleblowers. If he had input into this Bill, it really at stake behind all of this? certainly was not in the public interest, even if it was in the Labor Party interest. It will be The Opposition supports the Bill simply interesting to see how much protection there will because it is better than nothing, but we warn be for whistleblowers, as it is likely that, under the Government that we will be quick to point out this legislation, they will not even get the whistles publicly if we hear of what is termed "dead-end into their mouths. Whistleblowers will just sit in processing". That is where complaints are not silence and live with fear. proceeded with for various reasons. Dr William de Maria detailed dead-end processing in the In concluding, I would like to quote to the offices of the Ombudsman, the Parliamentary House what Phil Dickie had to say about the Bill Commissioner for Administrative Investigations before the House. He said— and the Criminal Justice Commission. With "The Government which owes respect to the CJC for 1992-93, he said that of whistleblowers so much is giving them back the 3 416 finalised complaints to the CJC, only very little in proposed legislation for four resulted in referrals to the Director of whistleblower protection. Prosecutions. Seventeen were referred to the The effect, if not the intention, of the police for criminal charges to be laid. He went on legislation is that whistleblowing is okay as to say that one is entitled to believe that their low long as the whistles are blown very softly performance standards suggest— and not in any public arena." ". . . that the investigative potential of This legislation will make sure that if the whistles Government anti-corruption machinery is ever do get into the mouths, they will be blown seriously compromised." very softly and not in the public arena. It should be noted that these comments pertain Mr BARTON (Waterford) (4.47 p.m.): I rise to the CJC and the Ombudsman's office, but one to support this Bill, and I support it because it is left with the view that the same dead-end intends to protect genuine whistleblowers. The processing culture would be as equally alive and Bill ensures that they have appropriate agencies well in those Government departments which to take genuine problems to and that they can have the reputation of being highly politicised. receive proper protection when they take those Earlier today, the House debated the Public issues forward. This protection extends to those Sector Ethics Bill, important legislation in terms of who bring forward complaints honestly and on the Bill before the House which cannot be seen reasonable grounds where the complaint is as a single piece of legislation. The Bill before ultimately not substantiated. So they are the House has to be seen as being in the protected, providing it is a genuine complaint in context of ethical culture within the public service the sense of a genuine belief in that issue. and the wider community. It is part of the I also support this Bill because it does not Australian ethic that "you don't dob a mate in." If provide protection to the mischievous and those whistleblower legislation is to be effective, then Legislative Assembly 10483 17 November 1994 who seek to destroy reputations for political or carried out by EARC, which sought submissions other reasons or to protect those who deal in from the public, by the parliamentary EARC trivia which is of no interest to anybody other Committee, which also consulted extensively, than themselves and does not seek to protect and by a great deal of subsequent consultation those people who are self-appointed by Government with the major stakeholders. whistleblowers on behalf of others. Every man and woman in Queensland has had This State certainly does owe much to the opportunity during that consultation process genuine whistleblowers in recent years. They to be part of it. uncovered the web of corruption surrounding Members of the Opposition have claimed the previous Bjelke-Petersen Government. They that they are concerned about the lack of put corrupt Ministers of the Crown, the Police consultation. In recent weeks, since it has Commissioner and many senior corrupt police in become known that this Bill is getting close to gaol. But most importantly, in exposing that being finalised, I have been inundated corruption, they ensured that we now have fair personally by submissions and complaints from electoral boundaries, one of the cleanest police whistleblower groups about a lack of forces in the world and a much more professional consultation. I am concerned not just about that and ethical public service. I stress—because I but also about the level of consultation in other believe that we need to pay that areas and what people wrongly believe recognition—that we owe much to those consultation means. Unfortunately, some people genuine whistleblowers who put themselves at think that consultation means that the considerable risk to put forward that material to Government has to continue talking to them until expose what successive previous royal the Government agrees with exactly what they commissions had been unable to expose over are putting forward. It does not mean that. Nor the decades that the National Party was in does it mean that the Government tells people Government. what it is going to do and that is the end of it. I also recognise the positive role that the Consultation falls fairly well in the middle of that. media played in that process. The media did play In cases which involve a small number of a positive and crucial role, particularly the ABC stakeholders, I contend that consultation does and the Courier-Mail. But we must put it into mean discussing it—within reason—to achieve context, because it is very important that we the maximum degree of consensus. In cases understand the differences between then and such as this, which involve a large number of now. That was then. That was when the police stakeholders and where there are some very force had been corrupt endemically for decades. significant directly opposing views, I suggest that It was when corruption existed to the highest consultation has to mean the process providing levels of Government, and no-one can doubt for submissions, for discussions, and, where that. There were no official avenues for appropriate, further discussions with major whistleblowers to take forward their complaints in stakeholders once views are firming up. I put it to that era. The only avenue that they had was to honourable members that that has occurred in take their complaints forward to the media. This the process over the past five years to allow us to Bill does provide for the other workable reach this point. It occurred with EARC, PEARC alternatives to be put in place, finally, although and by the Government with the major there have been interim measures over the past stakeholders. However, at the very end of the five years. day, after considering the views that have been I certainly acknowledge that whistleblowing put to it, the Government must make the has had some bad experiences over the past five decision that it believes is in the very best years. Most whistleblowers have been treated interests of the overall community. I also fairly and have been looked after in the way I am understand that once passed this Bill will lie on sure that we would all want them to be if they are the table for a short period to enable interested genuine whistleblowers bringing forward persons to comment further on it before it is genuine issues. A minority of people have had enacted. In other words, there will be a further bad experiences. This Government has drawn short period of consultation. on those experiences in preparing this Bill. I will I will return to the whistleblowing experience come back to a couple of those bad experiences or, at least, to several of which I am directly aware. shortly. In real cases, innocent people have had their Preparing this Bill was not an easy task. In a good reputations severely damaged by people living environment, the experiences were who claim to be whistleblowers. Some of those continuing during the period of the extensive people have been damaged quite deliberately, consultation in which the legislation was being some for political reasons, some for what appear prepared. This extensive consultation has been to be sheer acts of, dare I say it, bastardry, on the part of the people who have indulged in that 17 November 1994 10484 Legislative Assembly activity. In turn, some of the damage has been have to put up facts, particularly when appearing caused by people who are well-intentioned but before parliamentary committees at which it has misinformed or overzealous in their attitudes privilege and protection from defamation and towards issues of which they have become where, if it considers that some information is so aware or in which they have been involved. Yet sensitive, it also has the opportunity to ask to go others are self-appointed advocates for others behind closed doors in order to ensure that who lead others into inappropriate actions to reputations are not harmed before the evidence their own detriment. can be considered and tested. Although I do not agree with everything that I have no doubt at all that there are genuine Phil Dickie says, sometimes I agree with him. He whistleblowers who have been seriously got a lot of things correct in his column disadvantaged by the system. Whistleblowing "Watching" in the Sunday Mail of 30 October tends to be a fairly dangerous activity if one gets 1994. That is the same article that was quoted it wrong. This Parliament and its committees very selectively by the Leader of the Opposition certainly need to be hearing from those people when he talked about the CJC potentially being a and hearing real facts, not simply rhetoric that is burial ground for such matters. I would like to not backed up. quote some excerpts from that article by Mr I will return to that article in the Sunday Mail Dickie. In one part he states— of 30 October. Phil Dickie goes on to say— "Some protection has got to be better "There are others who have been than none. And, it should be said, the carte pushing their own barrows or have been the blanche protection being sought by some pawns of others with barrows to push. And for whistleblowing has its own dangers. for some, inconvenient facts are no obstacle Because whistleblowing has been a to belief in a grand conspiracy which, live and ticking issue for some time we now surprise, usually has them at its focus. The have what amounts to be a whistleblower dangers, to government and to more or less lobby. But because there has never been a innocent bystanders, of giving such a job description for whistleblowers some, motley crew carte blanche to commit and this includes some in the lobby, are wholesale defamation through the media essentially self-proclaimed. should be obvious." Some would be rightly regarded as I would agree with that comment. The people whistleblowers under any definition of the with their own barrows to push and particularly term. But I know other self-appointed those who are pushing somebody else's barrow whistleblowers who would be more who do not let inconvenient facts get in the road accurately described as overly-obsessed of their grand conspiracy and their right to be a with matters of no great public victim do the genuine whistleblowing cause a consequence." great deal of harm. This Bill cannot provide the whistleblowers Unfortunately, I do know fairly well at least lobby with the solution that they seek. With due one such person. I was not going to name him, respect to them, they are going over the top. I but he has been referred to extensively today by think it is a tragedy that some very good people, the Leader of the Opposition. I am talking about including at least one of the heroes of the Kevin Lindeberg who, I would suggest, is a Fitzgerald era, Col Dillon, have become caught self-proclaimed whistleblower with the grandest up with people who are either self-proclaimed, conspiracy plan that I have ever heard. He claims self-appointed, overly obsessed with matters of that he is a victim. I would suggest that the other no great public consequence or have a person whom he claims to represent is the real persecution complex. That certainly does victim—not a victim of the Heiner inquiry, but a describe some of the people who have been victim of Kevin Lindeberg's actions. In my view, involved with the Whistleblowers Action Group. Lindeberg is a self-professed whistleblower. He Some have lost sight of the forest for the trees. has defamed innocent people—some who are At a recent public hearing the PCJC gave very close former colleagues of mine—before the Whistleblowers Action Group the opportunity Senate inquiries, before the Cooke inquiry and to appear before it and state its concerns. Sadly, in other places. His case is brought up from time as an individual member of that committee, my to time in this Parliament, including earlier today, opinion is that we heard a lot of rhetoric and very by Opposition members who in so doing defame little substance. I stress that that is my opinion, good people who have done no wrong and who not the opinion of the committee. The transcript have been found to have done no wrong in the of that public proceeding has been tabled in this inquiries that have been concluded to date. He Parliament. I suggest that if the whistleblower appears in the media from time to time, lobby wants to be taken seriously it is going to presented as an example of why whistleblowers Legislative Assembly 10485 17 November 1994 need the sort of protection that some people are investigation; appeals against transfers, which seeking. resulted from whistleblowing; requests for I will not deal with the complete history of relocation when the employee feels under that gentleman, as it is sufficient to make the threat; by application to the Industrial Relations point that people are not whistleblowers simply Commission; and by application to the Supreme because they say they are. Innocent people can Court, including by the CJC on behalf of that and have been disadvantaged by self-appointed person if that person is a public officer who the whistleblowers, even up until now, without CJC believes is disadvantaged. Such has providing protection for them to say these things occurred in the past year in the case of the Shire in the media. I hate to think how bad it could be if Clerk of the Whitsunday Shire. The CJC took that those people had carte blanche to go to the action on behalf of that person. media and say the sorts of things that they have In turn, a great deal of effort has gone into been saying before Senate inquiries and royal this Bill to ensure that all genuine—and I stress commissions. "genuine"—whistleblowers are protected. The In my view, Phil Dickie is correct in his CJC is also part of the process. I know from my comment on the dangers of giving such people PCJC work that it is not always possible to agree carte blanche to commit wholesale defamation with the CJC on everything. I think that through the media. That is why the Bill cannot occasionally the CJC gets something wrong, but provide for the media to be part of the process. it is an independent commission that reports Overall, the media does a good job, but there directly to this Parliament through a parliamentary have been too many examples of people using committee and it puts in a big effort in the media to push their own inappropriate investigating genuine complaints by whistleblowing barrows and agendas. There whistleblowers, in supporting whistleblowers and have been too many examples of the media's in protecting whistleblowers. screening process not sifting out such cases. I am disturbed that whistleblower groups are Yet in that same article, Phil Dickie has also critical of the CJC's actions. I stress that acknowledged— many—and I suggest most—whistleblowers are "And admittedly, sometimes what is very happy with the actions of the CJC on their interesting but of no consequence is complaints, the support that they get when they preferred over what is important but need it and the protection that is given to them. complex or legally dangerous." However, some people who are pursuing trivial or non-genuine complaints are not happy. The The media are an important part of the CJC does not have time for trivia and political process. The experiences to be gained non-genuine complaints, and those once this Bill is passed and implemented over non-genuine complaints will be revealed as such time may demonstrate that approaches to the when they are subjected to thorough scrutiny. media can and should be protected. But if the Some genuine whistleblowers are unhappy process works, there will be no need for the because they do not get exactly the result they media to be included in the equation. After all, at want. Sometimes, evidence is simply not there, the end of the day, this Bill is all about protecting or cannot be found, to support the reasonable those who advise Government about corrupt and assumption of the person who made the criminal activities so that it can be stamped out. It complaint. The world is far from perfect. This is is not about giving the media good stories, or particularly the case when a whistleblower has being an early part of the process. In any case, convinced himself or herself that something has the media will get its good story when the corrupt occurred, particularly where that person's and criminal are brought to heel and brought perception is that he or she has suffered a before the courts. disadvantage. Many people become critics of the I am confident that all genuine system, which has genuinely tried to assist them. whistleblowers will have an appropriate body to Whistleblower culture does not have a long go to. Most will have a number of options. In fact, history and in so many ways it is contrary to covered in this legislation is an absolute menu of aspects of Australian culture, particularly the options of where they can take their complaints. culture of mateship and of not being a dobber. The Bill provides for whistleblowers to go to While we were growing up, most of somebody in another department if they are in a us—particularly people in my age group—learnt position where they feel that they cannot go to the saying tittle-tat as children and will have their superior because they believe that their strong memories of how those school children superior is involved in misconduct, corruption or who dobbed to the teacher really got the rounds criminal activity. The Bill also provides for of the playground when school was finished that protection for whistleblowers against reprisals, day. We have come a long way from those times, including in appropriate circumstances a CJC and if we are to stay on top of corruption and 17 November 1994 10486 Legislative Assembly crime, we need whistleblowers to make genuine We saw just how sick it was when the Labor complaints and they need to be protected. This Goss Government realised that public servants Bill is about protecting those genuine had taken the Estimates Committees process a whistleblowers, and I support it. bit too seriously. They had actually prepared real Mr GRICE (Broadwater) (5.06 p.m.): This information for their Ministers to use at the Bill is just another example of the Labor Goss hearings. Some Ministers played the game and Government's obsession with secrecy—doing stonewalled, with the Minister for Primary business in the dark, out of sight of the people of Industries the worst offender, but by then there Queensland. Forget what the Premier said when was the unthinkable— Opposition requests for he introduced this Bill, this is legislation freedom of information access to the material designed to ensure that Labor's dirty work can prepared for the parliamentary committees. That still be done the way it wants it to be done with smacked a little too much of democracy for a little fear of being exposed. Every day that goes Government elected on a platform of open, by is a day when Labor does something else to honest and accountable government. corrupt the machinery of State to its own This is a Government with a clear record of purposes. Every day, the public service and treating the elected Parliament as nothing but a public revenue are prostituted a little more to the nuisance, and even its own backbenchers are interests of Labor and its friends. That is what this nothing more than a cheer squad. The answer Bill is designed to achieve. It is designed to put a was to take the whole lot to Cabinet and use the gag on honest public servants who have been FOI Act to put the cloak of secrecy on sickened by five years of Labor's manipulations. everything. Until now, that manipulation of This Bill should be called the secrecy laws was the high point of this Labor "Whistleblowers Gag Bill" or even the Goss Government's culture of subverting "Whistleblowers Persecution Bill", as I will show honesty in Government while still preaching the in a moment. This Bill is platitudinous pap from a opposite. Government that is all show and no go when it Along comes the Whistleblowers Protection comes to honesty, openness and accountability. Bill. Along comes the chance to turn the Remember those three words? They were the honesty, openness and accountability rhetoric cornerstone of Wayne Goss' dishonest into exactly the opposite—a whistleblowers campaigns for office in 1989 and 1992. persecution Bill. Protection for whistleblowers Hitler's propaganda chief, Joseph was featured in the Fitzgerald report, which Goebbels, worked on the basis of, "If you say Wayne Goss pretended was his bible. something loud enough and often enough, It was thus to be expected that plenty of people will believe you." The people whistleblowing would be encouraged under a who built Wayne Goss worked on the same Government which won office on Fitzgerald's theory. Swan, Rudd, Atkins and the whole coat-tails. People who expected that were to be ALP/AWU machine trained this man to sorely disappointed—and not before very long. It perfection—"never be seen without a copy of soon became obvious that whistleblowing, which the Fitzgerald report; make sure 'National Party' reached an art form during the Fitzgerald inquiry, and 'corruption' are key words in every sentence; would no longer be politically correct. Just as the make sure honesty, openness and hard-nosed communists exterminated their accountability are part of every paragraph." erstwhile socialist comrades after the Russian That was enough to win Government, but in Revolution; just as Hitler turned on the office something would have to appear to be Brownshirts; Goss, Rudd and Coaldrake decided done to follow through on the rhetoric. However, on their own "night of the long knives". But Goss appearance is the key word, and support for the Labor has embarked on a long, drawn-out and CJC has to be followed up sensibly by stacking permanent purge of those who would dare to that body with Labor's lawyers, and EARC, which dissent. submits a couple of unpalatable reports, must be This Bill is the ultimate expression of that wound up with commendations for a job well suppression of any dissent that might come from done. There must be freedom of information those in a position to spot Labor's plunder of this legislation to pretend that a new era of open State. The ground had to be prepared first, government with no secrets exists, but the though. Public servants had to be made to legislation must be delayed until after the 1992 realise they would be caught and punished if election. Even then there is too much risk, so it they approached the Opposition or the media. had to come back to the House to be neutered. The Treasurer had that little job, as we all Queensland's FOI law is no longer effective. It is remember. a sick joke played at great expense on the It was the Treasurer who came down on Des people Queensland. O'Neil for daring to use his telephone in the Legislative Assembly 10487 17 November 1994

Office of State Revenue to call the office of the and impartially and without regard for the political Leader of the Opposition. O'Neil was told in no sensitivities of the Australian Labor Party and a uncertain terms that he was in big trouble and brand new ALP Government. They investigated that he faced serious charges. Of course he is in a complaint, and they laid charges against a trouble. He is in trouble for forgetting the basic superintendent of police—a verballer and public sector rule in "Gossland 1994". That rule is fabricator of evidence. More importantly, their that a public servant belongs body and soul to target, John Huey, was a Labor favourite, a man the Australian Labor Party. A public servant who did the party plenty of favours over the should forget any ideas of individual identity and years. He was also a man in a position to demand any right of contact with anyone who is not a bit of support in return—and he got that in politically correct. spades. To ram the point home to the slow learners, When the charges were laid, all hell broke the Treasurer pointed out that the Government loose. It was reported in the Sunday Mail that owned the telephone system. It would not former Detective Gordon Harris stated— hesitate to monitor the calls made on any "It was said that the day we charged Government telephone. That includes all Huey, the world down in George Street telephones in public service offices and all erupted. I then knew a lot of people were in telephones in parliamentary and electorate cahoots to protect him because we got told offices. Big Brother really is watching, listening there was political interference and he had and enforcing. to be protected . . . as it unravelled down the For those public servants who did not hear line we realised there were politicians that the Treasurer, there was a reminder sent around owed favours, people being protected." to a couple of the largest departments, and As Channel Seven has shown just this presumably it is now in general circulation. That is week—and as yesterday's question time an explanation of the Goss Government's great showed—the Labor Goss Government has gone advance in accountability—the ability to print out to extreme lengths to protect Huey, and is still the destination and cost of each and every call doing so. made on each and every telephone connected to the Government network. That is an example Harris and Reynolds had the prosecution of the Labor Goss Government's commitment to taken away from them by the Director of democracy. And this Bill is the next step. Prosecutions, a senior public servant in the Department of the Attorney-General. They were When EARC reported on the need for put at the mercy of John Huey, the man they had whistleblower legislation, the parliamentary charged. That is exactly the same treatment EARC stepped in, and the then chairman, the proposed in this Bill for public service member for Yeronga, Mr Foley, had a lot to say. whistleblowers. They are forced to make their He made a particular point of telling us about the complaints to their own bosses or to the Labor wonderful part two policemen played in the lawyers at the CJC. Fitzgerald inquiry—Col Dillon and Nigel Powell. It is interesting to note that Dillon, as Chairman of The treatment of Harris and Reynolds— and the Whistleblowers Action Group, is one of the Harris in particular—was nothing short of most trenchant critics of the Labor Goss disgraceful. There were secret hearings, Government's legislation. Like most people, he uncompleted hearings, denials of natural justice, recognises the Bill for what it is—a heavy-handed and a whole series of moves designed to break move to silence whistleblowers. their spirits and finances. In the meantime, the Police Service was doing its bit, demoting Matt Foley might have been full of praise for Reynolds two grades in spite of not being able to the two policemen whose Fitzgerald evidence make any charge against him stick. And both helped him get to this House, but while he was men were subjected to unwanted transfers and doing that his Government was persecuting were generally isolated and harassed. whistleblowers in the Police Service. The police whose whistleblowing helps the Labor Party are The culmination came with a deal to get heroes, but the police whose whistleblowing them out of the Police Service and silence them embarrasses Labor are public enemies to be permanently. They were encouraged to resign in vilified, isolated, and thrown to the tender return for Harris dropping a Supreme Court mercies of the Criminal Justice Commission for a action which would probably have resulted in the dose of good old Star Chamber justice. production in an open Court of the so-called Miller opinion on John Huey. That opinion was For more than a year now, I have been produced in the wake of the Director of raising concerns about the treatment of two such Prosecutions taking over and then dropping the policemen, John Reynolds and Gordon Harris. charges against Huey. It is a document which is They made the fatal error of doing their job fairly 17 November 1994 10488 Legislative Assembly so damning of Huey that the then Police Minister of lawyers. They want them investigated by a read it and demanded that Huey leave the Police properly independent body with real powers. Service. He was allowed to go with full benefits, If complaints are proven wrong, and if the including a huge publicly funded component of complainant is proven to have known that, then his superannuation. there must be remedies available to those The crooked cop walked free, but the men complained against. That is fair, and I believe who did their duty—the whistleblowers— were most people would accept that. On the other sent broke and into debt before they could hand, this Bill is not fair. It is viciously biased retire. They were forced to sign a repugnant against people honestly concerned about the agreement binding them to silence. They were misuse of the powers of Government, and I will sent on their way with their reputations sullied not support it. and their lives in ruins. That is the reality of the Mr VAUGHAN (Nudgee) (5.20 p.m.): Goss Government's treatment of whistleblowers. When he introduced this Bill into the House, the The core of this Bill is that the potential Premier indicated that it is part of the whistleblower has to keep his revelations in comprehensive and ongoing program of reform house where they can be covered by the cloak that this Government has introduced to clean up of secrecy. He or she has to make the allegations this State. He also indicated that in response to to the very people being complained about or to recommendations in the Fitzgerald report and to a body capable of taking action, generally the protect public officers who disclose misconduct good old Criminal Justice Commission with its in the workplace and provide legal safeguards for staff of Labor lawyers. They face the same sorts whistleblowers, in 1990 the Government of pressures as those which confronted introduced the Whistleblowers (Interim Reynolds and Harris. Of course, they also face Protection) Act. As a result of subsequent the likelihood that little will happen with the further consideration of the protections available allegations. for whistleblowers by EARC and the Parliamentary Committee for Electoral and It is part of human nature that a crook Administrative Review, the Government has receiving a complaint about himself will not be decided to provide a comprehensive scheme of inclined to investigate and prosecute himself. whistleblower protection in the public sector. This provision is designed to cover up complaints and hide them from view. So is the The Bill provides that, in the public interest, stricture about going to the media. The Goss special protection is given to disclosures by Labor Government is just not prepared to allow public officers about unlawful, negligent or any criticism from within. improper public sector conduct or danger to public health or safety or the environment. If a Australians have never taken dobbers to public officer considers that as a result of their hearts. And that sort of thing is not part of negligence or improper management by fellow our nature. But what we are talking about with officers public funds are being wasted, that genuine whistleblowers like John Reynolds, officer can report such a situation to either their Gordon Harris and Kevin Lindeberg is not own agency or any external authority that can dobbing. It is attempting to ensure that what is investigate mismanagement of funds without done by Government is in the interest of the fear of reprisal. However, those public officers society we all share. It is to ensure that the who choose to go to the press or the media with machinery of state is not used for the partisan allegations of maladministration or negligent or political benefit of the party in power, no matter improper management resulting in a substantial what that party. waste of public funds will not be protected under These people are powerful examples of real the provisions of this Bill. democratic ideals. They should have been The intention of this Bill is to provide the supported by a democratic Government. They means whereby any public officer in the public should have been assisted in having their interest can have his or her concerns charges properly tested. They should never investigated and be assured of the protections have been subjected to persecution by the most contained in this Bill. As I indicated, the Bill powerful organs of state in order to break their provides that disclosures must be made to the wills, their bank balances and their families. appropriate public authorities that have the Whistleblowers want the right to take their proper authority to investigate the matter about complaints where they will do the most good. which the person is concerned and to avoid They want their complaints handled by someone unfair damage to reputations as a result of other than the people they are complaining inappropriate publication of unsubstantiated about. They want those complaints followed up disclosures. As we are all aware, from time to time properly, not covered up thoroughly by a bunch and for many and varied reasons, there are Legislative Assembly 10489 17 November 1994 people who make allegations about misconduct, such purposes; they want an independent fraud, corruption or misappropriation. Where a authority established. person has genuine public interest at heart, they Of course, a form of whistleblowing has should have no qualms about making their existed for a very long time in the public sector. disclosures in the prescribed manner in order There have always been people in the public that their concerns can be fully investigated and sector who have leaked information about rectified. However, if a person chooses not to alleged irregularities or wrongdoings in the public have their concerns dealt with in the manner sector. These leaks were followed up by the prescribed in the Bill but chooses to go to the Opposition of the day in Parliament and by the press and the media, they will not be protected press and the media. It would be a very foolish by this Bill. Government that did not want the existence of Whistleblowing, as it is currently known, has, corruption, maladministration, etc., exposed. particularly since the Fitzgerald inquiry, become That is why this Government is introducing this something of a fashionable activity. Although any Bill to establish the procedures whereby a public public-spirited public officer should, if or she officer can have the necessary investigations considers that something is wrong, be able to carried out without fear of repercussions. expose what they may consider is not right and Public officers who are genuinely be assured that they will not suffer any concerned about something that is going on in consequences as a result of their action, the public sector can be assured that this Bill unfortunately I believe there are people in public provides them with the necessary protection office who see themselves as professional against reprisals. The Bill does not prohibit a whistleblowers. I believe that a whistleblowing public officer going to the press or media. cult has developed. I believe that as a result of However, persons who choose to go down this the publicity that some people received from the path do not have any protection from the Fitzgerald inquiry and the aftermath of that provisions in the Bill, including absolute privilege inquiry, they have become obsessed with the in defamation proceedings. Having regard to the belief that maladministration and misconduct, contents of the Bill, I believe it would be a very etc., is rampant and they must go on exposing it unwise public officer who chose that course wherever it exists. rather than those provided in the Bill. Some so-called whistleblowers remind me This Bill is a genuine attempt by the of Batman and Robin, Zorro or even Don Government to address the problems Quixote. They seem to have the same drive to whistleblowers themselves believe are a serious fight evil and wrongdoing wherever it exists, impediment to their doing what they believe they whether real or imaginary. This, of course, is the have to do from time to time in the public interest. reason why those whistleblowers who run to the Although there are some people who see press or media to expose the evil they perceive themselves as professional whistleblowers—in exists should not have the protection of the most cases self-proclaimed—who I am aware provisions of this Bill. The innocent people have expressed criticism of the Bill, I believe that whose reputations can be dragged through the criticism is unjustified and that the Bill should be mud in the process have to be protected. There supported. has to be some deterrent placed in the way of obsessed whistleblowers. Just as there exists in Mr SANTORO (Clayfield—Deputy Leader our society professional protesters, action of the Liberal Party) (5.27 p.m.): After reading the groups and the like, I believe there are now Premier's second-reading speech on this Bill, I professional whistleblowers who bathe in the was anticipating a piece of innovative legislation publicity they receive when they publicly expose which would significantly improve public something which they perceive to be wrong. administration and healthy community debate by giving adequate protection to whistleblowers. There are many self-proclaimed Certainly, the Premier described it in his letter to whistleblowers who I believe have become or are Senator Jocelyn Newman, which he tabled, as becoming overly obsessed with making providing— mountains out of molehills. Unfortunately, these people are needlessly costing the community "The most comprehensive legal and many thousands of dollars. How often do we administrative protection presently enacted hear of calls from a professional whistleblower for anywhere in Australia and possibly an inquiry into something they have exposed? anywhere in the world." One group of professional whistleblowers who How does the Bill stack up to this claim? Firstly, it seem to consider themselves as the McCarthys does go some way towards improving the lot of of the 1990s are not satisfied that their whistleblowers, but then again the Government disclosures of alleged public wrongdoings can did have a comprehensive EARC report as well be investigated by the bodies established for as a PEARC report to mull over. EARC reported 17 November 1994 10490 Legislative Assembly in October 1991 and the parliamentary undertaken by EARC. But the Bill is his own, committee in April 1992, so this Bill has taken not EARC's. The Premier's advisers have over two and half years to be presented to this reneged on principal provisions in the House. In that time, responsibility for developing EARC scheme. If the advisers had had the the legislation has been in the hands of the benefit of input from whistleblowers, then Office of the Cabinet, and the fingerprints of that the Bill would have had a chance of body and the Government are all over it. working." The Premier said that it is the Government's It is not to the point whether the claims of this desire that the Bill be passed before the end of group that their input would have resulted in a the year to enable whistleblowers' protection to better Bill are correct or not. What is important is commence as soon as possible. I ask the that for more than two years the public has been Premier: if he and his Government are so anxious shut out by this Government of the process of for this legislation to come into force, why have preparing this legislation. The Government has they delayed it for more than two and a half closed its eyes and ears to people from all walks years? Further, when will this Bill commence? As of life who have a genuine and legitimate interest anyone reading it will see, it will not commence in this legislation. We see, once again, the from the date of assent but only from the actions of an arrogant, out-of-touch regime trying proclamation date or dates. One gets the to reap all the benefits of the Fitzgerald process, impression that this Bill has been introduced as but simultaneously watering down proposals and close as possible to the next State election so holding Fitzgerald principles in contempt. The that any concerned public servant who wants to absence of genuine public input is all the more blow the whistle on this Government will not be serious when one considers the current state of able to do so until after the poll. public administration in Queensland and the In the same paragraph as he expressed his plight of those who speak out. fervent desire for this Bill to commence quickly, The experience of Pat Shears, a man whose the Premier also admitted that in the two and half career was destroyed by upholding the law and years his Government fiddled with the EARC doing what he thought was the right and proper recommendations there was little if no public thing, reinforces the following fine words in the consultation. The Premier was quite up-front in EARC report— dismissing public input. He said— "The Commission considers the "I do not consider that further integrity of government and public extensive consultation is required." administration would be enhanced if public The best the Premier was prepared to offer was officials were to recognise that they have a to allow this Bill to lie on the table for the legal and moral duty to question customary period so that interested persons instructions, practices or policy which could comment on it. appear, on reasonable grounds, to be contrary to the law, civil and human rights I am informed that since October 1993 the values or the established ethical standards Whistleblowers Action Group has written no of the community. The public interest is not fewer than five letters to the Premier and his usually well served by public officials whose advisers seeking meetings, and all have been only concern is their own well being. On the refused. I do not mind giving the Whistleblowers other hand, a public official should not have Action Group a bit of a go rather than slandering to sacrifice their career in order to challenge it, as Government members have been doing all a dubious direction, or to get an ethics issue afternoon. In its analysis of this Bill, the discussed." Whistleblowers Action Group claimed— How are these sentiments reflected in this Bill? "Mr Goss, it is surmised, has preferred The answer is: not very well. the counsel of his department heads, and One could be mistaken for believing that the they are the parties best served by the Government has shown all the skills of a legislation. He has not sought the counsel tightrope walker from the Moscow Circus by the of whistleblowers—not even of those constant references to the balancing process in whistleblowers who brought him to power." the Premier's speech and even in the Bill itself. That is a very damning point for Government The first juggling act I should mention is the quite members to contemplate. The very people who significant retreat the Government has made assisted this Government to come to power have from applying whistleblowing principles to the now been abandoned by it. The group private sector. In the EARC report, the continues— commission said that no reasonable objection "Mr Goss, in reply to these charges, could be taken to a scheme which offers has pointed to the consultation processes protection to a person disclosing a breach of the Legislative Assembly 10491 17 November 1994 criminal law to a proper authority that is under an several occasions to take into consideration obligation to observe confidentiality while particularly trivial complaints, and a proper investigating the disclosure, so that the balance was struck in that Act. I would suggest reputation of a business would not suffer that this could also have been achieved in this unwarranted damage through premature Bill. publicity of an allegation of illegal conduct, at The way that this Bill has dumped private least until such time as the allegation was sector whistleblowers is disappointing and goes substantiated. Likewise, the commission right against the thrust of whistleblowing considered that no reasonable complaint could legislation in the United States. Salt is only be made about a scheme that offered protection further rubbed into the wounds by the way that for the disclosure of matters that constitute a this Government has, for no apparent good substantial and specific danger to public health reason, picked out one or two aspects of private and safety, even though there may be no sector whistleblowing and endowed them with offence involved, for example, where the danger protection but cast adrift the rest. arises through negligence rather than any intention to cause harm. The next Goss/Rudd fingerprint that sticks out from this Bill is the almost paranoid way it is Yet the Bill has only a limited application to made clear that no protection will be given to any the private sector. In clause 19, the protection whistleblower who goes to the media. The applies to private sector whistleblowers only if Explanatory Notes state— they have information about: a substantial and specific danger to the health or safety of a "The Bill does not confer statutory person with a disability; the commission of an protection on public interest disclosures offence which is or would be a substantial and made to the media. The intention of the specific danger to the environment; and the legislation is to ensure that disclosures are contravention of a condition imposed if such made to agencies that can take appropriate contravention is or would be a substantial and action on the information disclosed. specific danger to the environment. These are Disclosures to the media would not well and good, but what about disclosures of necessarily further this objective." information about substantial and specific I think that honourable members would dangers to public health and safety, or patent agree that disclosures should be made to and significant breaches of the criminal law? entities with the power to investigate the The Explanatory Notes contain the following complaint in accordance with due process and dismissive statement— that any collateral damage inflicted on third "In its Report on Protection of parties as a result of the disclosure should be Whistleblowers, EARC recommended that limited. Unfortunately, we all know too well how private employees should be protected for politicised the bureaucracy has become. Dr disclosing activities by private sector William de Maria, in a paper given on 14 October employers involving danger to public health this year to the annual conference of the Royal and safety or the environment. The Institute of Public Administration, said— Government does not agree with such a "The data from the Queensland broad approach which could impose Whistleblower Study unambiguously additional cost for small business arising declares that our trust in the state structures from the procedural requirements of specifically designed to eradicate whistleblower protection, and the possibility wrongdoing is entirely misplaced. Official that small firms could face litigation over structures like the Human Rights and Equal claims arising from relatively trivial Opportunity Commission, the Ombudsman, disclosures." the Public Sector Management The hypocrisy is almost breathtaking. If we Commission, the Human Rights accept the logic of this statement, why has the Commission, the Criminal Justice Bill been drafted nevertheless to apply to the Commission and the Courts are so infected private sector but limited essentially to with professional elitism, political environmental information and that concerning correctness, so burdened down with huge persons with a disability? If the Government was customer lines and limited resources, so really concerned about trivial disclosures, it had politically gutless, and so jurisdictionally two and a half years to draft provisions that could boxed in, that we simply waste our time have struck the right balance between protecting looking for justice in these places." small firms and assisting people with information Before leaving the comments of Dr de Maria, he about serious breaches of the law to come said also— forward and be protected. After all, the Criminal Justice Commission Act was amended on 17 November 1994 10492 Legislative Assembly

"Finally the PSMC has to be seen for or reprisals. The Bill has omitted EARC's what it is; the new high water mark of the provision on both issues." politicization of the bureaucracy." The concerns that have in fact been voiced by I quote Dr de Maria not because I agree with all the Whistleblowers Action Group have been that he has to say in that report. In fact, I think that justified by the comments that have been made he is exaggerating and being overly critical. by members opposite who have spoken on this However, there is an element of truth in this, and Bill to date. In my view, those whistleblowers there is obviously a large degree of distrust in the have been attacked unjustifiably. One of the public sector with the existing structures. most gutless and unjustifiable attacks was that of The Pat Shears and Lorrelle Saunders the honourable member for Waterford on a man cases have done little to inspire confidence in named Lindeberg. the way due process will operate. So is it either Let us assume, however, that our ever good enough or even vaguely fair for the patient and diligent whistleblower is able to jump Premier to say that a person with genuine this hurdle. Under clause 43, such a public concerns and who has no faith in the State officer will have a right to apply to a civil court for system should be cast adrift because in damages, including damages for pain and desperation he or she turns to the media? Would suffering. But, once again, there is a catch. The it not be better to lay down guidelines to face the Explanatory Notes make it clear that if the matter reality of what is actually happening in the goes to trial, it must be decided by a judge system, rather than the Government turning its without a jury. What reason is given for this back on the situation and threatening people? deprivation of a citizen's rights? Let me quote Perhaps this is just indicative of the whole thrust from the Explanatory Notes. They state— of this Bill—blow the whistle on the "Judges are likely to be better placed Government's terms or not at all, and remember, to determine the public interest in assessing do not blow too loud or to too many people. the extent of liability, including the effect on Assuming a whistleblower does use the employers should excessive damages official channels, what protection does this Bill claims be upheld." afford? The Government claims that In other words, to make sure that damages whistleblowers will be protected from reprisals. payments are kept to a minimum. The Yet when one turns to the Bill, one sees that an Government has decided not to let even a action against a whistleblower is deemed to be a whistleblowers' damages entitlements be reprisal when the retaliation for whistleblowing determined by a jury of his or her peers. The plays a substantial part in the action. EARC's Bill Government is not even prepared to allow the used the term "ground of any significance for the normal principles of civil litigation apply here. I reprisal". One does not have to be a QC to see would like to know what the Bar Association, the that the new form of words waters down the Law Society and the Council for Civil Liberties protection that EARC envisaged. Proving that think of this abrogation of whistleblowers' rights the reprisal was a ground of significance rather and, indeed, civil rights. than that it played a substantial part in the action would have been easier, and is another Unfortunately, the bad news continues. indication of the way this Government is Just two clauses further on in the Bill, and one emasculating the EARC proposals. page on in the Explanatory Notes, it becomes clear that the Bill does not give separate authority The Whistleblowers Action Group quite for a review body to direct remedial action other rightly claims— than to set aside the action complained against. "The first defensive tactic employed by For example, in a promotion appeal, although it corrupt or inept officials against the will have the power in cases of reprisal to set disclosures of whistleblowers is to make the aside the selection, it will not have power to whistleblower the issue rather than the appoint the aggrieved person. Just how realistic alleged wrongdoing. Charges of is this? Does this Government honestly believe incompetence, self-serving motives, mental that a person, having been victimised as a result instability or immoral behaviour are levied of whistleblowing, is ever going to receive a against whistleblowers as a matter of course. "merit and equity" appointment in the These accusations are easy to make and organisation on which he or she has blown the difficult to disprove . . . The whistle? I would have thought that the Office of recommendations of EARC were that a the Cabinet could have dreamt up something a cause of any significance was enough to little more in tune with the real world of prove the reprisal charge. EARC also bureaucratic power politics—that is, of course, recommended that there be specific criteria provided that it and this Government are fair for employers to meet in defending charges dinkum about protecting whistleblowers. Legislative Assembly 10493 17 November 1994

In addition, a public servant whistleblowing to whistleblowers and which deprives these could also get the impression that he or she will people even of the right to ask for a jury if a be trapped in a hostile agency, because if the matter goes to trial. If this legislation leads the whistleblower wants to be transferred to another world in protecting whistleblowers, perhaps the department, the consent of the chief executive Premier has not considered America and has of that other department must first be obtained. limited his research to laws in force in the As the Explanatory Notes glibly put it— previous Eastern Bloc. "It would not be in the best interests of The pattern of limiting the effectiveness of an employee to be relocated to another this Bill is further highlighted when one sees the agency where the chief executive was limited obligations placed on Government owned opposed to the transfer." enterprises. The Explanatory Notes state that The Whistleblowers Action Group points these bodies are treated differently because of out—and I agree with it— their different commercial and legal status. It is a poor state of affairs when bodies, the sole "What CEO is going to rejoice in shareholder of which is the Queensland discovering that one of this 'suspect group' Government, are let off the hook so far as their is about to come under his or her wing? ethical obligations are concerned. This Clause 45 (5) (b) effectively nullifies the Government forfeits its moral authority to lecture relocation option." private enterprise about whistleblowers' rights A person has only to look at the EARC Bill, when it legislates these bodies out of substantial which gave the PSMC power to dispense with compliance with the law. The Goss Government procedural requirements relating to the should be setting an example and mandating advertisement of and selection of appointees to best practice standards for these bodies rather vacant positions to relocate a whistleblower, to than abdicating its responsibilities. Once again, it see just how far this Bill has been watered down. highlights the extent to which this Government And by the way, EARC did not recommend that has moved away from Fitzgerald principles. chief executives have a right of veto. Under the As my time is now short, I shall finish my EARC Bill, the whistleblower was entitled, as of contribution by referring again to the Premier's right and without need to request it, to reports at rejection in his letter to Senator Jocelyn Newman least every 90 days on the progress of the of the establishment of a body to investigate investigation, together with a report at the end of whistleblower complaints and, perhaps even the investigation. In comparison, under clause more significantly, of the need for further 32 of the Bill, there is no automatic progress investigation into various whistleblower cases. reporting; it must be by request, and it can be So far as a discrete body to receive whistleblower refused if giving it would be "impractical in the complaints—I think this is a matter which needs circumstances" or if giving the information would to be kept under review. Clearly, a number of be likely to adversely affect the investigation of potential whistleblowers will not come forward if an offence or possible offence. In other words, they believe that they will be victimised and their no information is given automatically and as of complaints will be fobbed off. There is quite a right, and the scope for not providing any large dose of cynicism in the public service about progress reports is significant. the independence of bodies that will be Again, this brings me to the Premier's investigating complaints, and I would be very second-reading speech. He pointed out to this disappointed if this legislation quickly falls into House that the Bill does not require authorities disuse simply because people feel that it offers receiving whistleblower disclosures to them no real protection against reprisals. investigate them. However, he then attempted Secondly, my concerns are only to soften the blow by claiming— heightened when I read the Premier's rejection "The Bill does place an onus on all of the recommendation in the report of the public authorities to provide whistleblowers Senate Select Committee on Public Interest with updates on progress made in Whistleblowing that the Queensland investigating their disclosures." Government establish an independent I suggest to the Premier that he read clause 32 investigation into the unresolved cases of Mr again, because no such onus is placed on public Kevin Lindeberg, Mr Des O'Neill, Ms Teri authorities. Perhaps he may wish to respond to Lambert, Mr Peter Jesser, Mr Gordon Harris, Mr that in his reply. Tom Hardin, Mr Robert Osmak, Mr Greg McMahon and Mr Bill Zinglemann. Surely, this We have before us a Bill which imposes no Government, if it wants to be taken seriously, and obligation to investigate complaints or to give irrespective of the merits or otherwise of these progress reports on the investigation of cases, should act and act quickly to implement complaints, which limits the protection afforded 17 November 1994 10494 Legislative Assembly this recommendation of the Senate select to be true, provided they do so honestly and with committee. proper intent in the right place. I say to the Premier: rather than coming into Disclosures to the media are claimed to be this Chamber with flowery rhetoric and honeyed the only way that something can get done. Let phrases about his concern for whistleblowers, let me tell honourable members a little about some us see some practical manifestation of this. And of the media. The media in this State is not just the best practical means of establishing the bona the Courier-Mail. It is not just Channels 9, 10 and fides of him and his Government is to accept 2—and let us not forget Channel 7, which has what the Senate select committee has shown in recent days that its reporting has a brief recommended and give these people a fair go; flirtation with the truth; if any flirtation with the accept the umpire's report and act now, because truth. Let us talk about some of the lunatic if anything will help restore confidence in the newspapers that get around. public sector it would be action along these lines. Mrs Woodgate: Caboolture Times. The defects inherent in this Bill extend Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I recognise that the beyond what I have discussed, including the member for Kurwongbah knows where I am keeping of documents, the nature of disclosure leading. Let us talk about newspapers such as of investigations to Parliament and the extent of the Bribie Times and the Caboolture Times. After compensation. At this juncture, I say to the a small financial setback, those two newspapers House that this is a sham piece of legislation, melded into the Caboolture and Bribie Times. which is two years late, is watered down to Then they melded into the Caboolture unacceptable levels, is full of loopholes and Chronicle—absolutely devoid of any publication offers protection to a level that the Government ethics at all. This particular editor—— believes it can live with. In short, as I have said, it is whistleblowers' protection legislation for Miss Simpson: You are a bit touchy. people who do not blow very hard, do not blow Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Of course I am to too many people, do not want very much in touchy about that editor. Just by way of damages and are prepared to stay in an anecdotal aside, that particular editor is now the organisation that is persecuting them. media employee of one Robert Katter. Do Mr J. H. SULLIVAN (Caboolture) honourable members remember Mr Katter on (5.47 p.m.): As I rise to support the Bill before the television saying, "The phone call about the House, I wonder if anybody here thinks how Lebanese Mafia now wanting to kill me was not John Sinclair might feel about this Bill. We have taken by me, it was taken by my press bloke." had to sit here for a short while being lectured on Those words sounded a bit familiar, so we went ethics and morals and whatever else from the through a few of the back issues of the people who were, and still are, devoid of any Caboolture Chronicle—I think that that is the skerrick of those qualities. I am not sure that this newspaper that it appeared in, but it might have is a rather pleasant thing for us to have to do. been the Caboolture and Bribie Times— and Members opposite have no right to lecture the there they were. The Lebanese Mafia was after Labor Party on any of these matters, and it is the press bloke many months earlier. rather offensive that they should. Mr Bredhauer: If the bloke he works for is Today, I want to concentrate on one aspect any indication, the paper must be a rag. of the legislation in particular, because it is an Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I do not know area in which I have some experience, that is, the whether the tax office knows that he is there, but area of disclosures to the media. As the Premier the paper was certainly a rag. The point is that a said in his second-reading speech, this Bill does paper such as that is not going to shy away from, not prohibit disclosures to the media. The or sift through, as Mr Dickie claimed the media Premier indicated that persons who disclose to would do, an article that he wrote. In fact Mr the media under existing common law and Dickie indicated that most media outlets have defamation law are not affected by this Bill. What some form of quality control that sifts self- are the existing common law and defamation law proclaimed whistleblower testimony for interest, protections that they have? relevance and likelihood. In a publication like the We are talking about public interest and unlamented late Caboolture and Bribie Times, accuracy or truth. Why would somebody who is the reality is that what can happen then is going to the media to talk about something that is muckraking—not genuine whistleblowing but true and in the public interest need the muckraking. People with malicious, vindictive protections that are provided under the causes to pursue and prosecute will do so whistleblowers Bill? This Bill provides protections through publications that do not display ethics. to people who make revelations that they believe Let us talk about the ethics of that newspaper. That particular editor fought a case Legislative Assembly 10495 17 November 1994 against the Caboolture Shire Council, which, is limited. Certainly if they wanted to go the media after the 1991 election decided that in order to this Bill does not prevent them from doing so; it is ensure ethical reporting of their meetings they just that when they go to the media they have to would require that journalists accredited to cover take their chances under other legislation. the meeting—not just those who might want to Mr Cooper: They get their head cut off. go in and listen to what is going on—and who would be given assistance by the council would Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There are be required to be members of the AJA, the protections elsewhere. It is not as if the whole Australian Journalists Association. He fought that State is run on one piece of legislation. The argument and he won. It was a cause celebre in situation is that if someone goes to the media that area and he won that one. The reason that that person gets his or her name up in lights and he won was that he said that his newspaper and a sudden rush of fame—in some cases, infamy. I his people subscribe to the ethics of the Press appreciate that there will be people whom we Council of Australia. We all know about that. As would regard as genuine whistleblowers who things come around, he was actually reported to would like the opportunity to go to the media. I the Press Council for sexist comments in relation am not sure what process would have brought to the election of that council, which had one them to that, because there are many other more woman on it than previously. He was found opportunities for them to have addressed the to have breached those ethics. What did the issue that they want to have addressed. Courier-Mail trumpet? "Editor unrepentant", so Mr Cooper: Sweep it under the carpet. he has no ethics and he would produce this Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: The member for material if it was provided to him. Crows Nest says, "Sweep it under the carpet." What are the media outlets after? They are Let us talk about the defamation that he has just not interested in publishing items in the public visited on the Ombudsman. If a person decides interest. They are after a headline, they are after to take a complaint to the Ombudsman, is the revenue, and if they happen to be electronic, Ombudsman going to sweep it under the carpet? they are after ratings. If whistleblowers can help The honourable member can stand up and tell us them do that—sorry, not whistleblowers, what he thinks. self-proclaimed whistleblowers—— Mr Cooper: This is what frustrates people. Mr Livingstone: Trumpet blowers. The delays are for too long, so that all they have Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: Trumpet blowers, left is to go the press. yes. If they can help them do that, then the Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: There are delays in media will go along with it. Quite clearly—and I am everything. I have been waiting two years for a grateful to the watchdog committee for fire protection policy for Bribie Island, and the day reminding me of this particular piece—what that it was supposed to be adopted, the place Fitzgerald was about was protection for people was on fire. making accurate statements. This Bill goes even Mr Cooper: That will make the Caboolture further than that: it gives protection to people Times. who make statements that they believe to be accurate. There are a number of people—not the Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: It already has—not newspapers—to whom they can make the Caboolture Times, but the story has already disclosures. I think that there has been a been issued by me in press releases to the local succession of members of the Opposition newspapers. The point is that there are avenues standing up here today saying that there are not other than a person's immediate superior that enough. Surely all they are arguing for is that people are able to access and there are people whistleblowers should be able to go to the press. whose integrity ought not to be impugned. If one They can make a complaint to their own agency if takes a complaint to the Ombudsman, and one they need to. If they feel that they cannot make a does not think that he has the integrity to deal complaint to their agency, they can make a with it, then who has? What about the complaint to any other public authority that can Auditor-General? Is he going to sweep things investigate. The investigating public authorities under the carpet? Clearly, the answer is: no, the are many. The CJC has been mentioned quite Auditor-General is not. The Auditor-General has regularly, and that is one. There is also the never been backward in coming forward in his Auditor-General, the Ombudsman, the reports about financial dealings in this State. Queensland police, the Department of Furthermore, if somebody has a matter that falls Environment and Heritage and the Queensland within the ambit of a relevant parliamentary Heritage Council, and importantly for those in this committee, they can take that there. On that House, they can make disclosures to the relevant parliamentary committee are members of relevant parliamentary committee. As far as I am my party, the honourable member's party and concerned, the need for them to go to the media members of the other party. That means, as far as 17 November 1994 10496 Legislative Assembly

I am concerned, that if it is a genuine complaint the Government did not want to consult a group there is going to be very little chance of its being with a great interest in the matter and which could swept under the carpet through that process. I have sought to change the direction in which this believe there are quite adequate places for legislation was heading. these problems to be taken. In spite of Mr Fitzgerald's comments, today The criticisms of the Bill made by the whistleblowers in this State have much to fear. In Whistleblowers Action Group are in a sense his report on whistleblowers, Mr Fitzgerald probably coming out of the fact that they do not stated— really understand the Bill. One criticism that they "There is an urgent need, however, for did make has some substance and that is, as was legislation which prohibits any person from mentioned by the member for Clayfield, the penalizing any other person for making situation of the standard of proof for establishing accurate public statements about whether there has been a reprisal for misconduct, inefficiency or other problems whistleblowing. within public instrumentalities. Such Mr FitzGerald: You took us through measures have recently been made law in lunch, too. the United States of America by the Whistle Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: For the information Blowers Protection Act 1989." of the member, I am going to sit down when we He went on to state— go to dinner so they should have their next "What is required is an accessible, speaker ready otherwise that person will miss the independent body to which disclosures can call. In doing so, I will be shortening my speech. be made, confidentially (at least in the first Of course, the substantial claws that Cabinet instance) and in any event free from fear of has put into this Bill as the standard of proof is reprisals." the same as the standard of proof for the I emphasise that point, because it is pertinent to anti-discrimination Bill. The fact is that the people this debate. who are meaning to establish that they have been discriminated against on those grounds The legislation is no panacea for covered in the anti-discrimination legislation whistleblowers. I understand their concerns with should not have to do so to a higher level of the legislation. They believe that they have been proof than people who are substantiating a claim short changed by the Government. That is not to under this legislation. say that they want to be able to make statements on a wide range of issues. No potential Sitting suspended from 6.01 to 7.30 p.m. whistleblower would expect to be given that sort Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly) of licence. They seek legislation that will give (7.30 p.m.): Never has a Government owed so them some protection. much yet given back so little. I speak of this Unfortunately, because of the lengthy Government's debt to the whistleblowers of delays and secrecy with this legislation, the Queensland. Government's track record is not good. Recently, Mr Bennett: Did you write that yourself? whistleblowers have been treated far worse than Mr BEANLAND: I certainly did. In the lead- they were by the previous Government. I will up to the 1989 election, whistleblowers' comment in a moment on the use of the contributions during the Fitzgerald inquiry led to enormous powers of the Criminal Justice the Labor Government's election to office. No- Commission to chase public servants who may one could argue that point. However, it is two have leaked documents. years and six months since the Parliamentary The Government has a fetish about Electoral and Administrative Review Committee's whistleblowers. We have witnessed the report to the Parliament. In that time, this shredding of Cabinet documents. What happens legislation has been taken over by the Office of to people who complain about that practice? the Cabinet and is being controlled carefully, to They feel the cold, hard leather of the the extent that the Whistleblowers Action Group, retrenchment boot courtesy of the Government. which was formed in August 1993, has not been The current legislation is a sham on part of the consultation process. That group has whistleblowers and a shameless stunt. It falls far complained loud and long about that lack of short of delivering to whistleblowers the consultation. When contacted by the group, Mr protection, security and encouragement they Goss' senior advisers indicated that no Bills were need, or even legislating those in the process of being drawn up. Further, recommendations contained in the EARC report. although the group had written five times to the Through disclosure of maladministration, Premier and his advisers seeking meetings, all corruption, mismanagement and abuse of requests had been refused. That highlights that position, effective whistleblowing helps to Legislative Assembly 10497 17 November 1994 expose for reform, removal, prosecution and place, public servants must be aware of the elimination activities which are not in details of the legislation and so on. Queenslanders' best interests. Mr FitzGerald: The FOI took ages to Protecting and encouraging whistleblowing come in. is therefore not just a moral duty; it is part of Mr BEANLAND: That is correct. The FOI ensuring good government, that being legislation took six months to be proclaimed. It efficiency and efficacy, honesty, integrity, took a couple of months to pass through the commitment to public service, openness and House and was proclaimed six months after that, accountability—not that the Government would following the State election. We will see a similar know much about that. All we have from it are fate with this legislation. The Government does nice words for the media and attempts to talk not want to be subject to whistleblowers during around the real issues. When it comes to this term. legislating to deliver these reforms, by Labor's definition George Street is not a part of Damage is caused to whistleblowers in a Queensland. Those concepts are not to be number of ways. Once they become applied to such a foreign place as George Street, whistleblowers, irreparable damage is caused to just as the Public Sector Ethics Bill does not their careers; often personal safety is on the line apply to George Street. and confidentiality is lost. Many Queensland whistleblowers have been subject to distressing The fact remains that whistleblowers in this intimidation by work colleagues, which has led to State are still treated badly. They try to do the many problems. A recent university study right thing for the people of Queensland, yet revealed that 70 per cent of whistleblowers they are prosecuted and hounded, and often surveyed believed that their careers had been lose or are forced to leave their jobs because of adversely affected. Whistleblowers suffer it. enormous stress. Many of them fall foul of work The legislation has a number of mates and are subjected to harassment, which deficiencies, the first being that disclosure to the leads to a number of symptoms that need Criminal Justice Commission may be required. expensive treatment. I note that you, Mr Deputy Another deficiency is failure to provide for a Speaker, are nodding in agreement. A number counselling unit as provided in both the of those symptoms need to be treated. The Parliamentary EARC and EARC psychiatric and psychological disorders suffered recommendations. As well, there is a lack of by whistleblowers are numerous. protection for whistleblowers who are forced to If one looks at the CJC's involvement in this go to the media, even to the extent allowed in legislation, one sees how the Government is the EARC submission. What is more, there is no misusing this Criminal Justice Commission, with independent whistleblowers' agency to which its $21m budget, its 263 staff and enormous whistleblowers may report. I have a number of powers, when it should be used to track down other concerns on which I will touch later. drug barons and crime kings. Of course, the CJC What has occurred with this legislation is is also being used to chase public servants who similar to what occurred with the freedom of have allegedly leaked a document— something information legislation. The only difference is that that the Labor Party, when in Opposition lived on the whistleblowers' legislation started with the day by day and with which it made a name for watered-down version and the FOI legislation itself. We had the case of the leaking of the has now arrived at that position, even to the Queensland Industry Development Corporation extent that Cabinet documents may now be report. The Treasurer called in the CJC to chase made exempt retrospectively. Openness and whoever leaked those documents if, in fact, they accountability must be seen for what it is—a were leaked. More recently, we had the situation farce! The Government will not even allow concerning the toll road to the airport on the parliamentary proceedings to be televised. north side of Brisbane. We were told that The whistleblowers' legislation will documents were allegedly leaked by officers of commence on proclamation. The freedom of the Transport Department to the member for information legislation proceeded down the Clayfield. I would not know whether that is right or same line. Proclamation may be in one month or not, or where the documents came from. It does six months, or just before or just after the next not matter where the documents came from. The election. It might even be the day before the point is that the documents were correct, the election is called, in which case the Premier can Minister was caught short and, at the end of the strut around the State saying that he has day, the Criminal Justice Commission was used implemented the whistleblowers' legislation. The to pursue people who may have leaked those Government will make excuses that documents to the extent that we had the administrative arrangements must be put in scandalous and outrageous situation where CJC 17 November 1994 10498 Legislative Assembly officers called on the member for Clayfield and ludicrous and outrageous and the CJC should questioned him. They interviewed him in relation not be put in that situation. to where those documents came from. That is So I think that this proposed amendment is a most outrageous. Of course, it is an infringement particularly important amendment, one which I am on the rights of a member of Parliament. surprised the Government did not consider Mr Cooper: For a member of Parliament to previously. Of course, it is probably in its be subjected to that is outrageous. interests to create the situation, because it does Mr BEANLAND: As the member for not seem to have the whistleblowers in mind, or Crows Nest says, it is totally outrageous for a any support for the whistleblowers, in this member of Parliament to be treated in such a legislation. If whistleblowers are going to have fashion by this body with these enormous any confidence, they must have the option to go powers, which ought to be doing something far elsewhere than to the CJC, in which there is a more useful with its time. Instead, it is trying to complete lack of confidence. prop up and protect this Goss Labor Recently we had that outrageous situation Government. Of course, it needs all the over foxtail palms. Again, it is little wonder that protection it can get. As the member for Crows there is a lack of confidence in the CJC when, at Nest says, that member of Parliament was doing the end of the day, regardless of all the his job and bringing this matter to the attention of nonsense, the cover-ups and the sham that his constituents. When the Labor Party was in went on, the very people who were called into Opposition, it lived off these sorts of things. question were the whistleblowers—one was Mr Of course, the police, officers of the Shears and the other man was Mr Stanton—all Auditor-General's Department and a range of because Mr Shears ended up going to the police other people could have been used to pursue first and not going to the departmental officers. people in the public service if it was believed that What a farce! In going to the police first, which is documents were being leaked. But no, this the very thing that one would have expected that Government must use the Criminal Justice he ought to have done—the correct and proper Commission, with its enormous and awesome thing—he was called into question in relation to powers, to investigate. How wrong it is and how the affair. That is an indication of the seriousness outrageous it is. When we see the misuse of of the matter. The Criminal Justice Commission power in such a blatant fashion, no wonder well and truly blotted its copy book on that people question the giving of those powers to matter. the CJC. I turn now to the media. I notice that, in It is little wonder that whistleblowers live in regard to the media protection in the legislation, fear of the CJC. They want nothing to do with it the Government has not gone as far as what was whatsoever. It is for that reason that, as has been proposed by EARC when health and safety foreshadowed already, I will be moving an matters were concerned. Recently, I was amendment to endeavour to give whistleblowers glancing through the Australian and noticed that at least the opportunity to go elsewhere than to the Labor Party in New South Wales—the the CJC. Through this amendment, they will Government in that State has a slight majority have an option to speak to someone other than over the Labor Party—is moving in the Upper officers of the Criminal Justice Commission. In House to do the very thing that we are proposing view of the fear, apprehension and the conflict of this evening. The Upper House in that State is interest, I think that option is particularly moving amendments to the whistleblower important. How can officers from the CJC be legislation. It wants to ensure that where there is "protecting" whistleblowers one minute and the evidence of corrupt conduct, maladministration next minute pursuing the same people over or substantial waste, public servants are leaked documents? What is the CJC's role? What protected from defamation action. The article is it going to do? In that situation, which hat is it states— going to wear? Is it going to wear the "However, the public servants first Government's hat and pursue these people, or is would have to go through official complaints it going to wear the hat for the whistleblowers? channels and could not bring their Mr Livingstone: Are you talking about grievance to the media until six months after trumpet blowers, are you? they had raised the issue within the public Mr BEANLAND: What is the situation? I service." say to the member for Ipswich West that I am So the Labor Party in that State is going talking about whistleblowers. Is that all right with down the very track that the Opposition is the member? What is the Government going to proposing in its amendment, which it will move do? Which course of action is the CJC going to later, to give whistleblowers an opportunity—— take in those circumstances? Of course, it is Legislative Assembly 10499 17 November 1994

Mr Budd interjected. department they worked in previously. Again, Mr BEANLAND: That is very good. I am that is a very important aspect. pleased that the member for Redlands is The last aspect that I want to touch on is the learning. He will be able to take something back burden of proof, which always seems to rear its to his master, Mr Ludwig. I am sure that he is head in these situations. In relation to the going to learn a great deal from this discussion. misconduct tribunal and to other matters before Many AWU members may be whistleblowers. We the CJC and various other tribunals, that burden know how the AWU is gathering up membership of proof will always have to be borne. I notice in a throughout the State, and good on it. If it can submission made by the Whistleblowers Action encourage people to belong to the union, it Group that they themselves have raised this gives strength in its arm. Of course, more than important point. ever, it will be concerned about this Time expired. whistleblowing legislation. I know that the Mr BEATTIE (Brisbane Central) member is a senior person within the AWU, and (7.51 p.m.): This evening, I rise to support the his very members will be very interested in this Whistleblowers Protection Bill 1994. The piece of legislation. Fitzgerald inquiry dealt specifically with the need There needs to be some protection for for legislation to protect public officials who people who, after a reasonable time and having expose or disclose misconduct in the workplace. reasonable grounds to believe that their Indeed, it was a key recommendation arising out whistleblowing action is going nowhere, as a last of the Fitzgerald report. This legislation reflects resort go to the media. that recommendation. The third point that I want to touch on relates As members would know, I am a strong to the counselling unit. I see recommendations, supporter of whistleblower protection. Indeed, in both in EARC and PEARC reports, for a this House I supported the Whistleblowers counselling unit, yet there is nothing in the (Interim Protection) Act 1990, which was legislation at all on this matter. The counselling supported strongly by both the CJC and PCJC at unit is a very important aspect of the legislation. the time. That interim Act made it an offence to There is no agency in Queensland that has the victimise whistleblowers and allowed the CJC to primary function of providing counselling and seek injunctive relief to stop the victimisation of guidance for whistleblowers. This is a major whistleblowers assisting the CJC. The CJC deficiency in the protection currently available in recommended that legislation. Queensland to whistleblowers. It should be the The Whistleblowers Protection Bill 1994 very heart and soul of this piece of widens the types of conduct about which legislation—that people have a counselling unit whistleblowers can make disclosures and which they can consult because of the situations extends significantly the protection for they might be suddenly confronted with. Clearly, whistleblowers. The types of public interest the Government does not want such a vehicle. It disclosures—and that is how they are referred to does not want to encourage whistleblowers. I in the Bill—that can be made by public officers believe that a counselling unit is the very organ are specified in clauses 15 to 20. The matters set that will encourage people to come forward and out in the Bill include the following: official become whistleblowers. It would give them misconduct; maladministration by a public sector somewhere to go to seek advice, to lean upon, entity which adversely affects a person's interest and to receive counselling. Yet there is nothing in a substantial and specific way; negligent or at all in the legislation in relation to a counselling improper management by a public officer, public unit. It is an oversight of a fundamental part of the sector entity or a Government contractor legislation. resulting or likely to result in a substantial waste There are a number of other important of public funds; conduct by another public points contained in the Bill. A clause in the Bill officer, or by anyone, causing a substantial and relates to relocation and, during the Committee specific danger to public health or safety or to the stage, I will be speaking more about it. However, environment. In other words, the provisions are this aspect of the Bill takes away any very broad. confidentiality that whistleblowers might have On page 2 of the Explanatory Notes, the when they transfer from one department to term "public officer" is defined, and Schedule 5 another department. They will lose that is referred to. That definition covers a wide range confidentiality, which is very important for of public officials. It is very broad indeed. whistleblowers. No doubt, because of this loss of confidentiality, they will be confronted with similar I will now move on to the issue of situations which they confronted within the disclosures. Disclosures can be made to any appropriate authority. Under clause 26, the Bill 17 November 1994 10500 Legislative Assembly gives a public officer the legal right to make a I want to deal with this aspect at some public interest disclosure to any public sector length, because the Opposition speakers have entity that is an appropriate entity to receive the referred to it in their contributions. It is important disclosure. Under the Bill, the public sector entity that we understand that there need to be checks is an appropriate entity if the disclosure concerns and balances, otherwise we will have, in the conduct of the entity or its staff; or the entity circumstances where the media acts otherwise has authority to investigate the irresponsibly—as it did on Channel 7 earlier this disclosure; or the person making the disclosure week—self-proclaimed whistleblowers, who are has an honest belief that the entity is an anything other than whistleblowers, exploiting a appropriate entity to receive the disclosure. All of situation to the serious detriment of a lot of those provisions are broad and appropriate, as private citizens. intended by Commissioner Fitzgerald. I will move on to the issue of legitimate The next question is: where can the whistleblowers. My track record on this issue disclosures be made? This seems to be the basis speaks for itself in this place, and in other areas. I of some discussion. I now turn to page 3 of the am firmly supportive of encouraging legitimate Explanatory Notes. Honourable members will whistleblowers to exercise their rights. Any see that internal disclosures by public officers are democracy which is serious about good set out on that page. Where a public officer has government would want to see whistleblowers information about wrongdoing within his or her being protected when they expose corruption. own public sector entity of a kind mentioned in Corruption is not serving the people who elect clauses 15 to 20, clause 26 permits the officer to us, and it is not serving good government or disclose the information to his own public sector sound financial management. entity, if the disclosure concerns the conduct of I return to the point that I made before, that the entity or that of its staff. Further on, there is a is, there has to be responsible behaviour not specific provision that, where a public officer only from the whistleblowers but also from the discloses information internally, clause 27 (3) media and the appropriate people who are ensures that the officer always has a right, required to carry out the investigations. During notwithstanding any disclosure procedures that my time as the Chairman of the first Parliamentary might be established by the entity, to disclose Criminal Justice Committee— and I am sure that the information to: a supervising officer, the chief my successor, Ken Davies, and his committee executive officer, or another officer of the entity have had this same experience—there was a tiny with authority to receive or take action on the minority who regularly sought to abuse and information disclosed—for example, the internal misuse the process to advance their own cause, auditor, if disclosure is about mismanagement of or to pursue some malicious vendetta against funds. another individual. We cannot allow that system I have gone through those provisions to operate without checks and balances in place. because it needs to be emphasised how broad If we have a free-for-all, at the end of the day a lot and wide-ranging they are. That brings me to the of private citizens will have their reputations centre of some argument, which relates to the destroyed without any opportunity for fact that the Bill does not protect persons who comeback. That is why this legislation is so make disclosures to or through the media, important. although—and I emphasise this—it does not I will deal with the report that went to air on prohibit whistleblowers going to the media. Channel 7 on Tuesday night, because it is a I will move on to the issue of whistleblowers relevant example of why this legislation is going to the media. I think the events of the past important and why the appropriate avenues for few days, and particularly a report by Chris Adams whistleblowers are correctly set out in the Act as on Channel 7, have highlighted the need for it stands. The other day, Channel 7 picked up a caution in this area. I accept that it is a difficult series of claims by a so-called whistleblower, Bob area, but it is all about balance. What we must Butler. It accepted what he said. Channel 7 put remember in this debate is that there will be an hour-long documentary to air and did not some self-proclaimed whistleblowers who do not contact any of the people who were subject to have a basis at law or any other basis upon which major criticism. Channel 7 did not ring me, Dean to claim to be whistleblowers. This small Wells or Terry Mackenroth. So where was our percentage of self-proclaimed whistleblowers— opportunity to respond? Firstly, there was a total indeed, it may be only a tiny percentage, but breach by Channel 7 of journalistic ethical they will be there—will make frivolous, malicious standards. and vexatious complaints. That is why the Mr Bennett: A bunch of lies. process of this Bill is appropriate. It requires a certain process to be followed for good Mr BEATTIE: Indeed, it certainly was. We management and good administration. were not contacted to exercise our right of reply. Legislative Assembly 10501 17 November 1994

So the media failed the first test. Secondly, Bob that program. I will never be able to look at Butler was a person with a vendetta to pursue. Channel 7 news—particularly any report by Chris He calls himself a whistleblower. Let us look at Adams—in the future and have any confidence what happened here. that any purported facts in the story are Mr Vaughan: Self-proclaimed. anywhere near the truth, because frankly I would not believe anything he put to air. Mr BEATTIE: As the honourable member said, he is self-proclaimed. Let me return to the so-called whistleblower. Who is the key alleged whistleblower in this? A I wish to go into the facts in some detail. We bloke named Robert Butler who, as revealed by all know that the High Court recently brought the credits at the end of the program, co-wrote it down a decision in relation to defamation. That with Chris Adams. What a meeting of great High Court decision provided that, when truth is intellectual minds that was! Let us look at what not established in a factual sense, two tests people have said about Butler. Let us turn to apply. Firstly, the media cannot publish former Justice Carter's report on the inquiry into recklessly or broadcast recklessly, and I the Joh jury selection. No-one could possibly emphasise that Channel 7 failed that test badly. claim that Carter is a Labor Party stooge; anything The second test—— but. He is a former justice of the Supreme Court A Government member: Not only that; it in this State. No-one at Channel 7 tested Butler's was malicious. credibility. In the report that was published Mr BEATTIE: I take that interjection. It was before that program went to air and under the malicious. The second test is that the statements heading of "The Friends of Joh and Butler", His must be reasonable in the circumstances. In no Honour said— way can it be claimed that the statements were "I am more than comfortably satisfied reasonable in the circumstances. Not only were that there was a close personal link between they unreasonable, untrue and factually Mrs Morrison"— incorrect; but they also were not even tested who represents the Friends of Joh Society— with the people involved. In this case, Channel 7 has failed both tests of the High Court. "and Butler well before the commencement of the trial. We must remember—and I hope that all honourable members will think about this—that The contact book reveals the degree there have been some reports in the media that of personal contact which existed between as a result of that High Court judgment it is a free- Mrs Morrison and Butler. for-all for attacks on politicians. That is not true. If . . . one reads the case, one will find that where truth There was one additional reason for is not established the test on the media is higher Butler's name and personal details to figure than it was before. prominently in Mrs Morrison's contact book. Mr Davies: They can't be reckless. They both were ardent admirers and Mr BEATTIE: That is right; they cannot be supporters of Sir Joh. More importantly, reckless. The way to establish the credibility of a however, it was to Mrs Morrison that Butler story is to test it with the people who are being looked for payment, in part, of the fees accused. Channel 7 did not do any of that. payable to him by the client. A reference to Channel 7, which now wants to hide behind that the relevant document discloses that most High Court judgment, has never read it and does of the money raised by the Friends of Joh not understand it. The media does not have a was paid to Butler or his company, Trial licence to be unreasonable and reckless. Consultancy Pty Ltd, both by the Gold Coast branch and the Brisbane branch." As all members are aware, it is tough to be a politician. We all get kicked to death in terms of That is the Brisbane branch of the Friends of Joh accusations falsely made from time to time. We Society. The report continues— need the same protection as the rest of the "In all, a total of $22,000 was paid to community, otherwise at the end of the day who Butler, $17,000 of which was paid to Butler would want to be a politician? Who would want to by Mrs Morrison. go into public life and have their personal Even further evidence of the reputations and family reputations kicked to closeness of the contact between Butler death by an irresponsible media that is not and Mrs Morrison is provided by the details interested in following the truth? What happened of telephone contact between them. with Channel 7 this week was an absolute disgrace. I am sure that viewers of Channel 7 On Friday, 20 September 1991, at news and Channel 7 generally would understand 9.31 am Butler spoke to Mrs Morrison on the the natural anger of those who were defamed in telephone at her home on the Gold Coast 17 November 1994 10502 Legislative Assembly

for 7 minutes and 22 seconds; on knew that the information was false and Wednesday, 18 September at 7.14 pm he misleading and that it would be provided to spoke to Mrs Morrison for 13 minutes and the trial Judge for the purpose of 14 seconds. Neither could recall the discharging Panel Z . . . " purpose or content of the calls." Butler was involved in a conspiracy to defraud a There is more. Carter in his report makes some justice of the Supreme Court of Queensland. very valuable findings about Butler's credibility. In Mr Ardill: And it's perjury, too. his findings on page 472 of the report, Carter states— Mr BEATTIE: It is not just perjury. Carter considered whether a report should go to the "Butler, at all material times, was Director of Prosecutions, and this is what he said intimately concerned with and involved in, on that matter— and was aware of all aspects of pre-trial preparation, including the pre-trial "In respect of (f) I should add that I have investigations into the relevant jury panels. considered the question whether a report should be furnished to the Director of . . . Prosecutions pursuant to section 2.24 (2) in Butler was at all material times both respect of the relevant acts and/or before and during the trial in close contact omissions of Butler and O'Brien in with O'Brien and knew that O'Brien's misleading Greenwood QC as set out disclosure to Greenwood QC and above, and also in respect of the false Gundelach was falsely deceptive and evidence given by O'Brien to the inquiry . . . intended to be so." In respect of the first matter, any available That is the sort of person Butler is. The report evidence which may be admissible in a continues— criminal charge is insufficient having regard to the strict requirement of proof, which is "Butler falsely denied that he had any applicable to such a charge"— knowledge of matters concerning jury vetting and selection." that is, a criminal charge— So he lied. It continues— "namely proof beyond reasonable doubt—a standard of proof significantly different from "His evidence that he deliberately that which applies to an inquiry such as this." dissociated himself from matters concerning jury vetting and selection is false." Carter found that Butler was a liar. Yet Channel 7, which was conned, did not even have the Carter found that Butler was a liar. But it goes on; intelligence to read a report on the public record. it gets worse than that. The report continues— The documentary aired the other night should "Butler had had, at least for some have had at the bottom, "Written and authorised months prior to 23 September 1991, an by the Friends of Joh and their stooge, Bob active association with the Friends of Joh Butler." movement with which Shaw had been An Opposition member: Come on! identified." Mr BEATTIE: Come on, nothing! The He makes other findings, including— member should read about Butler's association "Greenwood QC and Gundelach were with the Friends of Joh and his involvement in falsely and deliberately misled by O'Brien, to this matter. Butler is a liar and a fraud, and the knowledge of Butler, to the belief that Channel 7 is so stupid that it accepted the word Walliss had exhaustively and personally of a man who had been discredited by a former contacted and polled the members of Panel justice of the Supreme Court and who helped Z." defame on Channel 7 a lot of innocent people There is more. The report continues— whose families have had to suffer as a result. "That the joint purpose of O'Brien and A report was tabled by my Parliamentary Butler in the deception of Greenwood QC Criminal Justice Committee in the House on 16 and Gundelach was to effect the dismissal of July 1991 on an independent investigation into Panel Z . . . " the allegations made by Butler and Channel 7. That investigation was undertaken by two New The report continues— South Wales police officers, who were also "Senior defence Counsel did provide defamed by Channel 7. When I was re-reading the trial Judge with false and misleading that report today, I found an interesting clause in information in connection with the defence the resolution of my parliamentary committee. application to discharge Panel Z from Butler and Channel 7 appeared before my service at the trial. Both O'Brien and Butler committee and put all these allegations, which Legislative Assembly 10503 17 November 1994 my committee did not sweep under the carpet a vast gulf between the rhetoric and the reality but said, "Let us have them investigated by two and as such it is wholly consistent with the independent police officers who will do the job Government's so-called Freedom of Information properly." The resolution that the committee Act. The Government has talked about that Act approved was—— for so long—certainly from 1989 onwards. It said An Opposition member interjected. that Act would be the be all and end all of everything, but everyone knows what a failure Mr BEATTIE: The honourable member that is. The Government introduced it first and does not want to hear this because it is then tinkered around with it because it was embarrassing to him and his mates. This was a worried information would be a bit too free. So it unanimous resolution of the parliamentary had to restrict it to such a degree that now it is committee—Labor, Nats and the Lib. Everyone next to worthless. voted for it. No quantity of sanctimonious self-righteous Mr Davies: Two of those members are the and high-sounding statements by this Goss former Deputy Premier, Mr Gunn, and the former Labor Government will ever convince any Attorney-General, Mr Harper. informed Queenslander that this Bill is anything Mr BEATTIE: Exactly. The resolution more than a flagrant and blatant attempt to gag stated— critics inside the administration. I invite the media "In light of the assertion by Robert of this State to compare the Labor Party's words Butler and Channel 7 that they were in of 1989 with its actions of 1994 on this matter. I possession of evidence . . . we have agreed invite every concerned Queenslander to hark to an investigation. It should be noted"— back to the Labor Party promises, both actual and implied, in 1989 about openness, honesty and Butler and Channel 7 sat there while it was and accountability and then go and read this Bill. passed— The vast difference is so utterly extraordinary that "that this resolution meets with the it would be sickening for those who actually fell agreement of the two parties, namely the for the Labor Party's propaganda in 1989. The Criminal Justice Commission and Channel 7 sense of gross betrayal, of shattered promises and Butler." and broken hope must be immense. I know that They agreed to the investigation by the two New that is the case for all of those people who have South Wales police officers. The only time that suffered in the interim and who will continue to they argued about it was when the report came suffer, because this Bill will not help them one down and did not find what they wanted it to find. iota. If that is the way in which a self-proclaimed I support the amendments that have been whistleblower and the media behave—in an suggested by the member for Indooroopilly. I irresponsible way—then this legislation is entirely agree with the idea of a counselling unit. For the appropriate. It requires whistleblowers to follow life of me, I cannot see what is wrong with that. If the appropriate process. The legislation allows the Government was fair dinkum at all, it would disclosure, but it must be done properly. agree to that amendment and it would also Time expired. provide protection for the people who go to the media in the final analysis. Mr COOPER (Crows Nest) (8.10 p.m.): The member for Brisbane Central has had his day The appalling and totally cynical hypocrisy of in court, and I suppose that most fair-minded the Government is once again exposed by the people would understand that it is an opportunity manipulative use of the recommendations of to get a bit of the invective out again and work a Fitzgerald, QC, in his 1989 report to try and few of the people over. suggest some anointment by him of this Bill. The Explanatory Notes solemnly inform the reader Mr Livingstone: It's called getting the that— record straight. "In 1989 the Report of the Commission Mr COOPER: What I would like to do is get of Inquiry into Possible Illegal Activities and back to the Bill. However, one of the first things Associated Police Misconduct (the the member for Brisbane Central did say was that Fitzgerald Report) recommended that legal he was a strong supporter of true whistleblowing protection be given to honest public officials protection, but in himself even he must feel that who expose wrongdoing." this is not true whistleblower protection. He must realise that the whistleblower is not getting any The clear and intended message is that Mr protection out of this legislation. Fitzgerald's intentions and hopes have been faithfully translated into legislation when in fact it This Bill, like so much of the accountability would be a very generous tribute to refer to this program of the Goss Labor Government, reveals 17 November 1994 10504 Legislative Assembly

Bill as nothing more than a bastard child of that both gag public service critics and, at the same report. time, to make a pitch for votes on the basis of a Since the Fitzgerald report has been reform and accountability platform. The simple invoked as the inspiration for this Bill by the fact is that all of those criticisms would have been Government, it is useful to read what Mr true—and if they would have been true then, Fitzgerald actually said about whistleblowers and they remain true now. the need to protect them. He dealt with the While completely dissatisfied with so many matter fairly extensively on pages 133 and 134 of aspects of this Bill, I support it generally in the his report. A few pertinent quotes are sense that it provides the framework for what appropriate. He wrote— could be a far more effective Bill if the "It is enormously frustrating and Government had the courage and commitment demoralising for conscientious and honest and the principle it claims and accepts our public officials to work in a department or amendments as they come forward. instrumentality in which maladministration or A distinguished Melbourne Queen's misconduct is present or even tolerated or Counsel who has an intimate knowledge of the encouraged. It is extremely difficult for such freedom of information law reviewed this officers to report their knowledge to those in Government's amended Freedom of Information authority. Even if they do report their Act and, when asked for his opinion, asked if he knowledge to a senior officer, that officer was being asked for a political opinion or a legal might be in a difficult position. There may be opinion. When he was told it was a political no-one that can be trusted with the opinion, his succinct but very cynical reply was, information." "You're the next Government. Don't change a Mr Fitzgerald, while acknowledging that there comma." I suspect that he would have had the would be some in the bureaucracy who would very same view of this Bill. In his 1989 report, Mr make malicious and untrue allegations, as the Fitzgerald said there was— member for Brisbane Central has said, also ". . . an urgent need for legislation which stressed— prohibits any person from penalising any "The bureaucracy, however, must not other person for making accurate public penalise people simply because they are statements about misconduct, inefficiency outspoken. In an open society people have of other problems within public a right to speak freely on matters of concern instrumentalities." to them." I defy the Government to justify this Bill in that This Bill, by its very deliberate and specific context. nature, repudiates Mr Fitzgerald by denying his The grim irony for the Government is that definition of an open society. The Bill, according this sledgehammer approach to those who make to the Explanatory Notes, "does not confer public disclosures may in fact prove to be statutory protection on public interest counterproductive. I suspect that as the general disclosures made to the media". That is the point rank and file of the public service become aware of one of the amendments suggested by the of all the fine and restricting detail in this Bill member for Indooroopilly. which has as its core philosophy, "You can trust This is the most breathtaking reversal of us, we are the Labor Party", then their sense of alleged policy by the Labor Party that disillusionment with this bunch of manipulative, Queensland has seen. It is a cold-blooded and self-serving hypocrites will become so profound dictatorial attempt to ensure that no scandal ever that, after the initial shock and numbness, there leaks out. Far from ensuring that scandals, rorts will be genuine anger. I can see that coming. and other criminal or dubious activities are It is not my intention to speak about the exposed to the full public glare of media and provisions of the Bill, because to argue the other investigations, it attempts to shut down any provisions would give it a status and recognition possibility of that and put it all securely under lock that I do not believe it deserves. I think it is and key. Measured against the words of Mr sufficient to say that it is a shabby little charade, Fitzgerald that I quoted earlier, it is at the very far and if the Government really does think it opposite end of the scale. provides freedom of information with the If I had stood in this place prior to the 1989 Freedom of Information Act and if it really thinks it election as Premier and tried to introduce this will provide whistleblower protection with this Bill, Bill, the then Labor Opposition and the media it might as well introduce a Bill to end the drought would have had another feeding frenzy at my right now and expect a Statewide downpour the Government's expense. I would have been day that it is proclaimed. derided as trying, in my dying days as Premier, to Legislative Assembly 10505 17 November 1994

My intention is to deal with this early 1993 but never conveyed that fact to him. It Government's approach to whistleblowers since was a deliberate cover-up of the very worst kind it has been in office. As I said before, it would designed to protect inept senior management. have been very reasonable for whistleblowers The second illustration of this self-serving prior to 1989 to have expected a Labor mania for secrecy was the result of the inquiry administration that was enlightened, supportive, into the mass escape of seven prisoners from anxious to expose misconduct and the Wacol gaol in 1991. When an attempt was maladministration in all its various forms and made by the Courier-Mail to discover the reasons generally very welcoming. Instead, they found a for the escape, as concluded by the official regime that was not just utterly ruthless but at inquiry, it was told by commission management least initially, in the first flush of victory, that this report could not be released because it sufficiently sophisticated to appear with a contained security-sensitive information and that sharing, caring face. Those who fell for that were its release might give prisoners clues about how soon exposed to the public Dr Jekyll and the to effect new escapes. Frankly, as the events private Mr Hyde. proved, that was a huge lie. Earlier this week, I exposed to what lengths When the inquiry report fell off the back of a the management of the Corrective Services truck, it was discovered that it contained really no Commission would go to cover up any such thing at all. In fact, it contained scathing embarrassment when I blew the whistle on the criticisms of senior management, and it even circumstances surrounding the visit of a group of emerged that the director-general himself had children to the Lotus Glen gaol in far-north been officially reprimanded by the commission Queensland. I said then, and I repeat it now, that for poor planning and poor administration over the director-general of the commission lied to the that incident. Of course, none of this was ever media in his initial response to my media included in the commission's annual report, statement which contained the key claim that which likes to portray the commission as one very hardened criminals had shouted out vile sexual big, happy family of dedicated professionals abuse to those children. After I produced official doing a splendid job. gaol documents proving that claim, Mr Hamburger shifted ground and said words to the I believe that those two instances—and I effect that while something may have been certainly could mention others—effectively shouted, the children did not hear it. That still illustrate what a disgraceful and unaccountable does not mean that it was not said. shambles the commission management has become. The Government flatly refuses to make Presumably, if one accepts this as a fact, the Corrective Services Commission then Mr Hamburger is effectively calling the accountable to the CJC for that very reason and, witness in that incident, a prison officer, Ms Linda instead, trots out the lame story about other Green, a barefaced liar and is saying that the avenues of appeal, including to the Minister senior prison officer, Mr Payne, who breached himself. I maintain that, if this attitude is good three prisoners for the verbal abuse, is gravely enough for the Corrective Services Commission, mistaken. Ironically, he is also saying that one of it should be good enough for the entire public the three prisoners who actually did admit to this service and all Government instrumentalities and abuse—for which he got seven days' separate that the Government could save some $20m a confinement—was an idiot for admitting to year of taxpayers' money and simply send something that really had no effect at all. everybody at the Criminal Justice Commission Almost every day, information comes to me home with a pat on the back. Of course, we need from officers within the Corrective Services the CJC to keep an ever-watchful eye on all the Commission of massive cover-ups and gross departments and instrumentalities. We can only mismanagement. Two instances give an wonder why Corrective Services have been so indication of the regime of obsessive secrecy deliberately excluded. inside the commission. Firstly, the commission, The commission, for example, refuses to in a monumentally sloppy example of make public even sanitised versions of inquiries mismanagement, overpaid the Brisbane Tribal into deaths in custody because it asserts that it Council Limited, the then operators of the would have trouble in the future, if this Gwandalan halfway house for Aboriginal happened, persuading witnesses, such as prisoners, more than $60,000 in the two financial prison guards and prisoners, to tell the truth. years 1991-92 and 1992-93. The Once again, the commission regards itself as far Auditor-General never knew about that until I beyond the rules that apply to every other wrote to him. I have a letter from the Auditor- department and instrumentality. For its own General confirming that. The Auditor-General political purposes, the Government is in active subsequently discovered that commission agreement. Therefore, what can we expect from management discovered this overpayment in 17 November 1994 10506 Legislative Assembly the commission when it comes to deal with this extraordinary courage to come forward with pathetic bit of propaganda that the Government claims deserving of serious inquiry. Others within likes to call its Whistleblowers Protection Bill? the commission who have had similar concerns Frankly, the commission would be delighted; and very quickly got the message and appreciated when such an administration undoubtedly has that commission management was so powerful, this reaction, all fair-minded people must have so ruthless and so determined that they would cause for very serious concern. be in grave risk of their careers if they so much as The treatment handed out to whistleblowers raised an eyebrow, let alone a complaint. Yet, by the commission in 1991, at the time of the under this legislation, those people are CJC inquiry into Corrective Services, is more supposed to feel confident and comfortable than just a straw in the wind. That inquiry was about making their concerns known to senior established when former prison manager Mr management. That is a vain hope, which, of Patrick O'Connor went to the Public Sector course, is just what the commission management Management Commission with allegations of and the Government want. mismanagement against the Corrective Services The Corrective Services Commission, which Commission. In his report, the then Chairman of resulted from the trailblazing Kennedy inquiry, the CJC, Sir Max Bingham, said that he did not was my proudest achievement as a Minister. I see it as the responsibility of the CJC to really did believe that Queensland now had a investigate Mr O'Connor's allegations of Corrective Services structure that would prove to mismanagement and maladministration and, be efficient, effective and accountable. All that instead, concentrated on matters raised in this remains of my hopes and aspirations is the name House and elsewhere by the member for of the outfit. It is significant that Dr William de Nerang. Maria, who has been mentioned here tonight on In the context of the debate on this Bill, it is a number of occasions—the Queensland important to consider what happened to Mr University academic who is conducting the O'Connor and three other former officers, whistleblowers study—has said that a whopping namely, Mr Michael Hanran, Mr Tom Challis and a 18 per cent of those who have come forward with fourth, identified simply as Mary. These officers whistleblowing claims have come from Corrective were plunged into a whirlpool as a result of Services. coming forward in the best interests of Corrective Under this Government, there has been a Services, and subsequently they have told virtual doubling of deaths in custody and publicly of the unrelenting official and unofficial dramatic increases in escapes and staff assaults. campaigns of persecution and vilification that There are people in senior positions in the were mounted against them. They were commission who would make Colonel Klink, that ultimately forced out of the Corrective Services bumbling Stalag 13 commandant from Hogan's Commission simply because they did not toe the Heroes, look like the very model of efficiency. It is official line and acknowledge every single aspect administration such as this—and I am sure there of administration and policy as being carved in are other similar examples under this stone as regulations pursuant to the Ten Government—that makes the implementation of Commandments. our key amendments absolutely critical. I certainly Remember, Sir Max Bingham himself said it will be supporting and commending those was not the CJC's role to inquire into claims of amendments to the House. mismanagement and maladministration, so the I just wanted to mention some of those substance of many of the serious claims made by people—three or four of them—who have been these courageous officers was never victimised and horribly treated. One of them, Mr investigated independently. In any case, the Patrick O'Connor, who is aged 48, is now CJC inquiry was so seriously comprised by, working as a car salesman. He said that the among other things, the leaving of a CJC file pressure of appearing at that inquiry and coming containing the allegations on a desk at the forward to do the right thing—as he Brisbane gaol, whereupon it was promptly thought—has changed his life dramatically. His photocopied and distributed and really achieved marriage of 25 years broke down because his nothing—and it made sure that it achieved wife could not tolerate the threatening and nothing. abusive phone calls at all hours of the day and night. His two children, who have not These events in 1991 paint a picture of a communicated with him in almost three and a half management at the Corrective Services years, also feared for their safety. His son has Commission so utterly determined to protect been harassed, as has his family. The itself that it was prepared to harass, to intimidate, to virtually threaten and, ultimately, to sack or harassment still goes on, even though it had the force out from its own ranks those who had the effect of smashing their marriage. That is the sort Legislative Assembly 10507 17 November 1994 of thing that is occurring. I do not believe that this Environment and Heritage, the Queensland legislation is going to offer any benefit or succour Heritage Council and parliamentary committees. to people like that or people who follow in their In his contribution to the second-reading footsteps. debate, the Leader of the Opposition smeared I mentioned Michael Hanran, who appeared the CJC and other official bodies that listen to the before that very same CJC inquiry. His daughter allegations of whistleblowers. I think it is was shot at, his home was broken into, and his important to remember that whistleblowers can family was plagued by threatening phone calls. still, and often do, have their allegations aired in What sort of an outfit is this, and what sort of public hearings. We should remember what people are going on with this endless happened under the National Party, in particular harassment if people put their hands up and say what happened to John Sinclair and the they can see something wrong? If the contemptible and objectionable way in which the Government thinks that this sort of legislation is National Party treated him. The National Party did going to correct that, I know darned well that it will not even have the respect of members of this not. Parliament when its Ministers were instituting Tom Challis, a former prison officer, believes defamation actions against Opposition members that the tradition in this State's history is that the to shut them up. That was the worst type of innocent are discredited and the guilty walk away behaviour that I have seen by members of this with a built-up profile. That is the basis of his House. When the members opposite were in experience, and he, too, is out of a job. Those Government, they attempted to take defamation sorts of people, who number in their hundreds actions using the finances that are available to around this State, have been treated badly by Government. It is very interesting, then, that the this Government. That is the ruthless, vicious member for Toowong would be concerned way in which this Government has put people about the actions of the CJC towards the down—people whom it says that, with this member for Clayfield. legislation, it is about to try to protect. But we As legislators, we must protect the rights of know darned well that it will not. That is what is so individuals—— annoying. It is just a charade. This is probably the most hypocritical piece of legislation to be Mr Bennett interjected. brought before this House since the Freedom of Mr Veivers: You're not in your correct Information Act. Eventually, the people will see seat. through the Government. I say that without the Mr CAMPBELL: That is all right. He is not slightest shadow of doubt. As the saying goes, doing a bad job. We have to protect the rights of you can fool them for some of the time, but once individuals and those public officers against they get angry and realise the damage that the whom allegations are made and we have to Government has done and the hypocritical way recognise that they should be protected. As that the Government has treated them, they will legislators, we need to ensure that public officers vent their spleen—they will vent their anger on are not unduly hurt by unsubstantiated the Government and it will have deserved every allegations from fired, disgruntled, unethical and little bit of it. disenchanted work colleagues and members of Mr CAMPBELL (Bundaberg) (8.31 p.m.): the public who may have a personal vendetta. They were dedicated, responsible and There is a need for balance. There is a need for concerned public officers who initiated the natural justice for the officers against whom Fitzgerald inquiry and exposed endemic and allegations are made and also protection for systematic corruption in the State of Queensland those genuine whistleblowers. But we have to under the National Party. I believe that we should remember that not all allegations are truthful; recognise those people and the debt some allegations are just nasty and Queenslanders owe to those principled officers, objectionable. We have the need to—and those whistleblowers, who made those public through this legislation we will—protect the interest disclosures. genuine whistleblowers, but I believe that we also have to make certain that those dobbers, This legislation will help further protect those un-Australian types of people—— those types of genuine whistleblowers. Official Mr Livingstone: Trumpet blowers. misconduct, maladministration, negligent or improper management, and substantial and Mr CAMPBELL: The honourable member specific danger to public health can now be calls them trumpet blowers—are also exposed. disclosed. It can be disclosed to the appropriate Tonight, we have heard both sides of the story. authorities—the CJC, the Ombudsman, There might be some element of truth on both Queensland police, the Department of sides. Not everybody is going to be totally right or totally wrong. We must ensure that we have 17 November 1994 10508 Legislative Assembly the correct balance, which I believe we do in this Other allegations were that he stole legislation. materials from the DPI and used DPI The Leader of the Opposition then equipment and work-time to make crab pots, provided some of his own statistics of the a gym set, anchors and items for himself and outcomes of CJC inquiries and a significant his family. number of unsubstantiated and untruthful He was cleared of all the allegations." allegations that did not result in any action being That man was hit cold with between 30 and taken against public officials. I think it is important 40 allegations. He went back and spoke to the to remember that, by his own figures, many CJC officers quite openly for eight hours. He people have suffered the shame and indignity of then got in his car and he took them around to let having to go through a CJC inquiry when there them have a look at everything that was done. was no basis to those allegations. In many cases But before that happened, the following events it was all circumstantial evidence and vendettas occurred, as reported in the Courier-Mail article— by disgruntled fellow workers. ". . . one of the whistleblowers escorted the Victims of untruthful allegations—we see it CJC officers around Bundaberg, pointing even in this place—can take legal action. If the out the men's homes . . . his father's fishing people who have been the subject of malicious shack, his brother's home and girlfriend's allegations have a family and a home and their flat. health, they cannot afford to take legal action. The Mack case is a case in point. During the interview they pulled out this photo and asked if it was my girlfriend's I will mention a case in Bundaberg, because flat . . . I want to put on the record the concern that I have for ordinary workers. I reckon that these That was after they produced my bank people are fairly dedicated workers—ordinary statements for the past four years. Queenslanders—who suffered as a result of They had all of these allegations and some allegations that could not be substantiated secret photos." in any way. An article in the Courier-Mail on 21 How would honourable members like to have February 1994 stated— officers of the CJC come up to them and hit them "The Criminal Justice Commission cold with questions such as, "Where did you get spent five months investigating two all the money in all of those bank statements?" Bundaberg public servants before they He had to account for every deposit. It is very were charged with theft of motor oil worth fortunate that he was able to do so. $2.07 and rotting timber valued at $42. The ganger was then interviewed about Two CJC officers spent several days in some of the allegations regarding his colleague Bundaberg on two occasions investigating and workmate. He even said, "He's all right. He theft and corruption allegations against hasn't done anything wrong." He was asked Water Resources Commission fitter and whether he had done anything improper. He said turner . . . and ganger . . ." that one day he had topped up the oil in his In his own words, that fitter and turner said— Suzuki ute. The officers said, "Hell! You are actually saying that you did that. How criminal!" ". . . In October I got called into the So what happened? He was charged over $2.07 manager's office and was told these two worth of oil. I will tell honourable members the men from the CJC were here to see me. kind of dedicated worker that man is. Although I was asked if I wanted a lawyer present he was on call, he had the right to a work ute to but I said 'no' because I hadn't done drive directly to and from his workplace or, if he anything wrong." had to make a call, he could go directly there. That is what any ordinary worker would There were not enough cars to go around, so he say—"Come on, mate. You're all right. I haven't said, "Don't worry about it. I'll just bring mine in." done anything wrong." The article continued— He would drive his own vehicle to and from work, even though he could have had the use of a ". . . he was grilled by the CJC officers for work vehicle. All because he took a little bit of oil, two days and was questioned about whack! possessions belonging to his parents, brother, girlfriend and himself. Mr FitzGerald: He should have made a mileage claim. He was accused by two whistleblowers in the department of 'fixing' water meters of Mr CAMPBELL: He did not even claim local farmers to supply extra water, at no mileage. That is what happens. People ask why cost, during the drought in return for the CJC follows those matters through. It has to corruptly receiving cash. follow them through. When people make Legislative Assembly 10509 17 November 1994 allegations, the CJC does not know whether Quite clearly, the Goss Government is selectively they are dobbers, people with personal implementing the Fitzgerald report according to vendettas or genuine whistleblowers. A balance its own agenda. So secretive and singleminded is required. We must ensure that genuine is the Government's program that not even what whistleblowers do not sustain indignities such as one could call the principal interest group in this other people have suffered. When allegations legislation, the Whistleblowers Action Group, are made, they should be investigated and was consulted in its drafting. answered within a stipulated period. Some public The Bill before us has the right title, but its servants have waited six months to be notified substance is rotten. It does not fulfil the spirit, the whether they would be investigated. intent or the letter of the Fitzgerald report. It After receiving criticism, the CJC has to effectively compromises individuals making make recommendations. As a result of public interest disclosures by enshrining in recommendations on changes to management legislation a requirement that the public service procedures, all the utilities have now been taken should remain the policing body for away from the class of employee to whom I whistleblower complaints about the public referred earlier. As a result, a person on call in service. Wallaville, which is about five kilometres from The Premier has rejected the content of the some pumps on the main pipeline— Fitzgerald report, which calls for an independent Mr FitzGerald interjected. authority to monitor and police whistleblower Mr CAMPBELL: Not even that. They sent cases. In this legislation, Mr Goss is pushing his a taxi from Bundaberg to pick him up and take own behind-closed-doors agenda and is him to the Bundaberg depot. He gets the utility propping up the so-called shadow culture now and goes to work. He then drives the utility back endemic in the public service. Whistleblowers, to the depot and hires a taxi back to Bundaberg. who have suffered institutionalised victimisation, Not all the recommendations of the CJC are discrimination, vilification and persecution at the correct. This legislation must provide the right hands of departmental superiors and/or balance. Because the legislation is in the best investigators, have called for an independent interests of all concerned, members should monitoring authority. But the Premier, in yet support it. another manifestation of his unmitigated arrogance, has pushed through the Labor Mr FITZGERALD (Lockyer) (8.42 p.m.): In Party's malignant agenda. 1989, when the Premier was Leader of the Opposition, he said in this House— Instead of an independent authority, the Premier is advocating the Criminal Justice "What worries me is that, when people Commission as the chief investigator of have a professed commitment to reform and whistleblower complaints and upholder of to weed out corruption only when it is whistleblower rights. So, too, has he flatly convenient and popular, will that rejected the recent recommendation of the commitment disappear when it is no longer Senate inquiry into public interest whistleblowing convenient?" that an independent public interest disclosure He further said— agency be formed. The Senate further "This is the Premier that uses expressed its lack of confidence in the CJC as an 'openness' and 'accountability' in every impartial investigative agency. The CJC, if sentence. Unfortunately he does not allegations raised by the Channel 7 documentary demonstrate openness and accountability the Report are any example—and I believe they in every Act." are—is not an entirely independent or politically unbiased institution. The allegations of Those words should send a chill up the Premier's corruption and political intervention in CJC spine, because his own words now serve as a investigations are extremely serious and raise damning indictment of his Government's thin the question as to who is monitoring the facade of openness and accountability. watchdog. Surely an independent body that is The Whistleblowers Protection Bill 1994 is a set up specifically to protect the rights and substantially flawed piece of legislation. It interests of whistleblowers in the course of an compromises the effective operation of the investigation would provide a more equitable and principles of openness and accountability in impartial system of justice in Queensland. Government. In this Bill, the Goss Government The Queensland Justices and Community has jettisoned entirely the substance of the and Legal Officers Association is also highly Fitzgerald report. The Premier has instead critical of the Goss Government's whistleblowers' sought to extend extremely qualified protection protection legislation. In the November 1994 to whistleblowers in a naked charade designed edition of the association's journal, Justice and to maintain an appearance of genuine reform. 17 November 1994 10510 Legislative Assembly the JP , it said that instead of an independent their fundamental right of freedom of speech. agency— This is a very dangerous precedent that strikes at ". . . the (Goss) Government plans to rely on the heart of one of the most elemental axioms of new guidelines for public service democracy. Under this Bill, the Goss departments and Government agencies to Government deliberately and calculatedly moves 'oblige' them to protect whistleblowers. to drive allegations of official misconduct or corruption underground. By removing protection The Government proposes to make from whistleblowers who take information to the discrimination against whistleblowers a media, the Goss Government is intentionally criminal offence—but does not explain how keeping potentially embarrassing allegations out the new 'rules' will be applied internally to of the public arena. This is not consistent with a the public service. Government that claims to be open and Worst of all, from the whistleblowers accountable—indeed, a Government that won its point of view, the Government is backing mandate on the basis of transparency in and promoting the Criminal Justice Government. Commission as the 'leading' protection That the Goss Government deliberately agency for whistleblowers. seeks to nobble the democratic process speaks This flies in the face of a mass of volumes about its true intent with this Bill. Its evidence from Queensland whistleblowers hidden agenda is maintaining its current status that the CJC is, for them, untrustworthy and quo of secrecy and duplicity. And this Bill, rather ineffectual." than facilitating the quest for truth and justice, In addition to the CJC, the Premier says obstructs it. whistleblowers should take their claims to the The Australian Press Council in its 1991 Auditor-General, the Ombudsman, the submission to EARC supports the view that Queensland police, the Department of public disclosure via the media is a healthy and Environment and Heritage, and the Queensland essential mechanism in democracy. Its Heritage Council. What a joke! The point is submission stated in part— entirely missed by the Premier that, despite the "The protection of whistleblowers is existence of these bodies, whistleblowers have based on one of the basic human still been unable to achieve justice by going rights—freedom of expression—which through these channels. Why is it that everyone should not be lost merely because the but the Premier and the Labor caucus accepts disclosure is made to the media. The media that an independent body is a critical criterion in constitute an important institution in society, the protection of whistleblowers. whose mission is to propagate and protect An independent body is needed to freedom of speech . . . guarantee that allegations will be properly The role of the media in exposing investigated by appropriate authorities, and to corruption and impropriety in both the public monitor the progress and report on the status of and private sector and in seeking justice those investigations—a body that guarantees demonstrates clearly that the media can be protection of whistleblowers and checks an effective means of defending the public discriminatory overtures against them; a body interest. that ensures that records and documents relating to allegations do not mysteriously These facts suggest that disclosure of disappear through the shredder. information to the media by a whistleblower should not affect his or her right to Mr W. K. Goss: Will you take an protection." interjection? I remind the Premier of the case of Kerrie Mr FITZGERALD: The Premier is Campbell, who battled to get allegations of involved with the shredder. abuse, injury and loss of life at the Basil Stafford Mr W. K. Goss: Come on, Tony. Centre investigated for a period of four years. Mr FITZGERALD: I will take the Premier's Her evidence was ignored by officials, including interjection if he wants to talk about the Heiner the CJC, until out of frustration she took her case report and the Cabinet decision about the to the Hinch program and Haydn Sargeant. The shredder, because that is what I am talking about. Whistleblowers Action Group points out that in Lastly and most importantly, this body should this case the difference between action and prosecute public servants found to be involved inaction on the part of the Goss Government was in misconduct or corruption. the fact that the disclosure was made to the media. A further basic criticism of this Bill is that it moves to prevent individuals from exercising Legislative Assembly 10511 17 November 1994

As recently as Monday of this week, the "substantial", "specific", "reasonable Courier-Mail ran an article about conditions at the procedures" and "proper records" remain Leslie Wilson Youth Centre. That matter is still strategically undefined. Such qualifications built being raised today. Is that not the place that has into the definitions of "misconduct" and the rigid the taxi rank outside? The Government should procedures surrounding whistleblower be putting a taxi rank outside it because people disclosures run in direct contrast to the escape by taxi from that place. In the article it was statement by the Premier, who said— revealed that some staff said that because they "The Bill provides a comprehensive had signed a secrecy document they could be scheme of whistleblower protection in the charged, fined or jailed for exposing conditions. public sector." That is very serious. That is totally against the fundamental rights of whistleblowers whom the A further gaping hole in the Bill is its failure Premier, in this legislation, purports to be to provide real public accountability over the supporting. This is a heinous curtailing of the effectiveness of the legislation, that is, in a democratic rights of those employees to expose reinforcement of the Government's policy of wrongdoings at that centre, and the Government driving whistleblowers' disclosures has sought to override those disclosures by the underground, there will be no opportunity for the implicit threat of legal action. public to scrutinise and evaluate the effectiveness of the Bill. I say to the Premier that this is very serious. How does he get on with those public servants The requirement for senior executives to who have signed secrecy documents without keep comprehensive records pertaining not only to direct whistleblower cases but also pertaining exposing anything to the public? How do they to the events that they seek to expose is frankly feel about the whistleblowers legislation? This non-existent. There must also be a requirement legislation does not address the predicament of that all documents must be made available to those officers who face charges because of the investigators in the course of their investigations. documents they signed as part of the conditions Incidents such as the shredding of the Heiner of their employment. They have signed a documents should be recognised as wilful, secrecy document as a condition of their criminal destruction, and the Government's employment, but where does that leave them refusal to make the Director of Prosecutions with regard to whistleblowing? This is report into the Huey affair is seen as obstruction. undoubtedly a calculated oversight. Add this to a recent disclosure in the media of the witch-hunt The number of unresolved whistleblower conducted by the Government towards a senior cases during the life of this Government tests the public servant who had telephoned the office of Premier's own words. It appears that this the Leader of the Opposition, to which the Government's commitment to weed out Leader of the Opposition referred during his misconduct and corruption is maligned because speech. it is no longer convenient, nor is it politically expedient. The stench of secrecy and cover-up Firstly, the fact that this officer was victimised pervades this Government in a number of and discriminated against should raise serious whistleblower cases that indelibly taint the questions about this Government's commitment Government right up to the Premier. to openness and transparency in Government. Secondly, the question has to be asked as to The Premier has refused to act on the why the officer's phone calls, and the person to Senate's recommendation to instigate immediate whom those calls were made, were monitored in public inquiries into the Kevin Lindeberg and the the first place. Those types of actions belong to Gordon Harris case, which is among nine other Stalinist Russia, not Queensland of the 1990s, cases that it says are unresolved. The Premier is in direct contempt of the Senate of this country, yet they are happening on a daily basis under the which initiated an all-party Senate inquiry into regime of fear and intimidation being waged by these same cases. In its report—and the Premier the Goss Government in the Queensland public had better listen to this—to the Senate, tabled service. It is clear that if the Premier is genuine in on 31 August, the committee commented on his endeavours to provide a protective progress made in New South Wales and South mechanism to whistleblowers, he must amend Australia in relation to investigating and resolving the Bill so that they may seek redress through outstanding whistleblower cases. It went on to the media. say— Another key criticism of the Bill outlined by "However, the committee remains the Whistleblowers Action Group is the concerned at the number of apparently Government's control of the definition of critical unresolved whistleblower cases in concepts such as official misconduct, Queensland." maladministration, public health and safety and reprisal. Other critical words such as That is from an all-party committee. 17 November 1994 10512 Legislative Assembly

In conclusion, I contend that this legislation disclosure under the Bill. That means that is a charade in terms of genuine reform and they cannot be sued for defamation. Nor genuine protection for whistleblowers. I can only can they be prosecuted for breaching reiterate the Premier's own words. This is the confidentiality obligations. Premier who uses 'openness' and . . . 'accountability' in every sentence. Unfortunately, he does not demonstrate openness and Second, the Bill makes it unlawful for accountability in every Act. anyone to take a reprisal against a Hon. N. J. TURNER (Nicklin) (8.57 p.m.): whistleblower for making a disclosure." As most speakers have referred to the rights and In most legislation and other things in life, protection needed for whistleblowers, I will not there should be a balance. In this legislation, labour that point tonight. My speech is on behalf there is no protection whatsoever for the of those millions of people in Queensland who individual who has been dobbed in or reported will never be whistleblowers, but many of them by the whistleblower. Whilst I support will become embroiled in accusations against wholeheartedly the actions of genuine them, sometimes truthfully, but more often than whistleblowers who have cases, I am speaking not there will be allegations against them that against those pimps and dobbers who will use have not one shred of evidence. It is on behalf of this legislation to attack innocent individuals. those people that I speak today. They will deliberately and maliciously destroy A Government member: Tell me about individuals' characters, their families and their them. lives and, by this legislation, those dobbers will Mr TURNER: If the member does not be protected. All they have to do to indicate know about them, he has been walking around whether they are lying or not is to say that they with his eyes closed. In his second-reading believe that they dobbed someone in on speech, Mr Goss said— reasonable grounds. What a joke! "It must be emphasised that the Bill Previously, a member interjected and said, does not require that disclosures be "Name someone." I would like to refer to one substantiated in order to attract the case. There was an elderly lady in my area who protections. It is sufficient for the disclosure came down to Brisbane to give evidence at the to have been made honestly and on CJC. She made a submission to the police reasonable grounds. In light of this, powers investigation. She is a lovely old lady, disclosures may be made against private about 70 years of age, who has had 17 years citizens, community groups and companies, working on the local council. She had worked for as well as public officers, which will turn out every charitable organisation on the north coast. to be baseless or which simply cannot be She came to Brisbane and submitted that the substantiated." police should have increased powers. I imagine that someone must have been present for her Also, in his Explanatory Notes concerning evidence and thought, "She must like police. We whistleblowers, the Premier stated— will give her police." Three weeks later—this is "Provided that the information was about a year ago—in the morning at daylight, five made honestly on reasonable grounds, car loads of police arrived at her door, banged on individuals named or referred to in the the door, wanting to go through her place for disclosure will have no recourse through drugs. They went through her ceiling, through defamation proceedings or other legal the sheds and around her property. The only action which could otherwise be taken drugs that the poor old woman would have had against the whistleblower." would have been a Vincents APC powder in On page 9 of the Explanatory Notes, the 1952. That is the type of thing that I am talking Premier stated— about. She could not ask then—and we cannot ask under this legislation—who dobbed her in. "The Bill provides that a public officer The dobbers cannot be charged. This is great who suffers a reprisal will have a right to stuff, isn't it? apply to a civil court for damages including damages for pain and suffering." How far are we away from what happened in Europe and in Poland after the war? At school, Unfortunately, in this legislation there is no teachers would ask children to tell them whether compensation for the pain or suffering caused to their parents were speaking German at home in the falsely accused person. The Premier has also order to get them to dob in their parents. If the stated in his second-reading speech— children said, "Yes", Government officials would "The whistleblower will incur no criminal or go round to the house to re-educate the civil liability for making a public interest parents, rearrange their features or throw them Legislative Assembly 10513 17 November 1994 into a re-education camp. If honourable members The member for Nicklin was speaking up on doubt that this is what happened, I can tell them behalf of the people who are the subject of the that it did. My wife came from such a place. She complaint—the people who are the victim of the has relatives who have gone through this type of complaint. Whether or not honourable members thing. agree with all of what the honourable member The sad fact is that the people who are said, he made a very valid point, that is, not all bringing this legislation into our society have no people who call themselves whistleblowers are knowledge of that type of thing. I will accept that whistleblowers. Some people who call there are genuine whistleblowers, and they themselves whistleblowers are nothing more should receive all of the protection possible. than malicious muck-rakers. Some people who With the full force of the law, the Government call themselves whistleblowers are nothing more should come down on those who are malicious than trumpet blowers. Every member in this and motivated to destroy innocent lives, Parliament is aware of people such as this. Each otherwise we will degenerate into a dobber/pimp of the parties in this place, and members of the society, and that is totally un-Australian. respective parties, have been the victims of malicious muck-rakers. We need to be very Much has been written about how people careful, as the member for Nicklin and I have feel after their house has been burgled or cautioned, about giving these malicious muck- ransacked. They feel violated and, in many rakers absolute protection and privilege for the cases, have to live with that feeling for the rest of character smearing that they undertake. This is their lives—much like the victims of rape. Has this an important point. Chamber any idea how people feel, how their lives are destroyed and how their families are This legislation seeks to strike a balance to affected when they are falsely accused of protect the genuine whistleblower and something by some malicious animal? Do encourage evidence and complaints of members opposite have any idea what it must wrongdoing, criminal and official misconduct to feel like for innocent people to have the police be brought forward, but not at the expense of knock down their door, and enter with guns giving an absolute blank cheque to malicious drawn looking for drugs or a hidden criminal? muck-rakers to defame with impunity the reputation of innocent citizens. To that extent, I How would they feel if the CJC rang up to agree with the member for Nicklin and I reject say that they have been accused of some illegal absolutely the hypocritical nonsense that comes activity and that the CJC is coming over today to from some members of the Opposition. They interview them? Great stuff! But innocent people would suggest that innocent citizens can have in this position cannot find out who dobbed them their reputations ripped apart by malicious muck- in and cannot take any action against the dobber. rakers. If any of the legislators present in this Parliament today experience this situation, they will change Honourable members opposite need to their point of view. However, it will probably be have a close look at themselves—not the too late by then. All of these wonderful reforms member for Nicklin, but some of the are much like toothpaste in a tube—it is far easier others—because what they have been to squeeze it out than it is to put it back in. Until advocating in this place is short-term political people are given protection by this legislation point scoring at the risk of the reputations of from being wrongly accused, I will vote against innocent citizens and, indeed, themselves. If the Bill. they do not have the wit to work out that the sort of malicious muck-rakers and spivs that they have Hon. W. K. GOSS (Logan—Premier and been dealing with in some of the issues that Minister for Economic and Trade Development) have been raised in this place will turn on them in (9.03 p.m.), in reply: I thank all members for their a second tomorrow and say the same thing about contributions. I will comment briefly on the them, or even if they are in Government—if they contribution by the member for Nicklin, who was are ever in Government—then they are very the last speaker on the Bill. Although he naive and optimistic indeed. attracted some critical interjections, he raised some important points. I am not sure that I agree In summary, what this legislation does is entirely with what he said in relation to people afford to genuine whistleblowers adequate making complaints, but he did make a very valid protection and the opportunity to come forward point. I think it was, in part, consistent with some with information that will root out corruption and of the things that I have said, that is, there is more official misconduct. It seeks to strike the to this equation than just the so-called balance—and it is a difficult balance to whistleblowers. There is more to this equation strike—between doing that and giving that than the people who make the complaint. opportunity and protection to genuine whistleblowers and on the other hand protecting the reputation of innocent and decent citizens 17 November 1994 10514 Legislative Assembly who would otherwise have their characters that the Bill is deficient because it does not ripped apart and shredded in the public domain provide for an independent counselling unit for as a result of the types of protections that some whistleblowers as proposed by EARC. Also, he people, including some members opposite, reflected on the capacity of the CJC to protect would advocate. It is a very foolish and whistleblowers. irresponsible course of action that would put I remind members that the Criminal Justice innocent citizens in that position. Commission was established by the former The member for Nicklin has rightly raised National Party Government with the support of that concern. Frankly, I share it, and I am the other two parties as an independent disappointed that some members have used this corruption watchdog. The legislation was drafted debate to try to win some short-term political by their appointee, Sir Max Bingham. It came gain. And when I say "short-term political gain", I straight out of the Fitzgerald inquiry. It is not a mean for four seconds. Nobody will give them a creature of this Government. It is an independent point tomorrow and nobody will remember their body. It causes heartburn and heartache for the speeches tomorrow. If they had succeeded in Government. It causes heartburn and heartache their arguments, they would have done terrible for the Opposition from time to time, but it is, for damage to the fabric of this community. all its faults, an independent body. I think it comes down to the sort of The Government rejects the view held by contribution that we saw from the member for some Queensland whistleblowers that a new Lockyer, who is essentially a decent and fair- body should be established to investigate minded person. He stood up in this place and whistleblower complaints. It would just be read somebody else's speech to try to pander to another bureaucracy. The types of people that somebody in the gallery. That is a very we are dealing with—the types of people that the unfortunate use of the privilege afforded to Opposition is supporting—would find members of this place. At least the other themselves a few months later rejected in terms members of the Opposition who went on with of the credibility of their complaint by the new their nonsense read their own speeches. There body, and what would they want then? They have been a number of concerns and particular would want another independent commission or issues raised by members. I would firstly thank another independent inquiry. It is the tired old members of the Government for their support. game, the never-ending caravan of the next Mr FitzGerald: Who wrote your speech? I independent inquiry. It is a joke, and the bet you didn't write your speech yourself. Government rightly rejects it. Mr W. K. GOSS: Yes, I did. To protect public officers who make disclosures, this Bill gives the CJC additional Mr FitzGerald: You did? That is rot. You're powers on top of the already wide range of legal making this one up yourself, but your powers that it has. Further support for second-reading speech was not written by you. whistleblowers will be available from the new Mr W. K. GOSS: I am making this one up ethics unit of the Public Sector Management myself, am I? That is a lot more than I can say for Commission. Compared with other States of the the speech of the honourable member. Commonwealth, whistleblowers in Queensland Everybody saw the member's embarrassed grin will have very substantial support available to when he read his speech. It is a dead give away them indeed. when members have an embarrassed grin on The next issue that I want to touch on that their faces when they read a speech, a dead give has been raised in the debate is the issue of away when they will not take an interjection, disclosures to the media. Mr Borbidge criticised because they cannot break their concentration, the Bill's departure from EARC's and it is a dead give away when they cannot recommendations that whistleblowers are able to pronounce some of the words in their own go to the media in cases where there is speech. He is still grinning. Poor old Tony is such immediate danger to public safety. I understand a decent and honest person that he cannot lie that he foreshadowed an amendment to allow without grinning. whistleblowers to go to the media. This has been Mr FitzGerald: You're grinning. a general demand of whistleblowers and other Mr W. K. GOSS: Yes, but I am not lying. critics, that there be a general power to go to the media. I have dealt with that in terms of my A number of points have been raised. The response to the member for Nicklin. first one raised by the Leader of the Opposition, a number of other people and the so-called This Bill does not prevent whistleblowers Whistleblowers Action Group relates to the need from going to the media. The law in that regard is that they see for an independent body to handle unchanged. The law in that regard is unaffected. whistleblower complaints. Mr Borbidge stated They can still go to the media if they want. But Legislative Assembly 10515 17 November 1994 what this Bill does do is provide genuine time for action, and this Government is acting whistleblowers special and unprecedented tonight. It is time to proceed with the legislation, protection if they want to complain to one of the and we intend to proceed and proclaim the many sources of responsible authority to which legislation. they can complain under this Bill. I say again that The next issue raised was the reference to this Government will not ignore the genuine right the requirement in the Bill for public agencies to of the great majority of innocent citizens to have give information to whistleblowers about action their reputations protected from being shredded taken on their disclosure. There was some by malicious muck-rakers. criticism that this obligation is not absolute. Let The next issue I want to raise is the criticism me say this: there are times when to give of the delay in introducing the Whistleblowers confidential information to a whistleblower or Protection Bill. We have proceeded as quickly as other person could prejudice the investigation or possible, but in the interim and before we had a the safety of the investigating officer in a report and before we were urged to do so by particular case. It would be wrong to give access EARC, the CJC, the parliamentary committee or to information in these particular circumstances, anybody else, we introduced groundbreaking and the Government will not. In most interim legislation. Now, after extensive circumstances, however, agencies will have to consultation, we have introduced this legislation. give proper feedback under this law, and this If we had listened to the demands of the duty will be enforceable through the courts. I Whistleblowers Action Group and some other think it is a very appropriate and substantial people in the community, we would not be measure that the Government has undertaken. debating this legislation tonight, because they There are amendments proposed and wanted more consultation. They wanted more indeed foreshadowed by the member for delay. The Government has acted properly and Indooroopilly. I will not deal with those now; I will the Government has acted in a timely fashion. deal with them at the Committee stage. However, The next issue raised was the reference by I believe that there is no legitimate basis for the Leader of the Opposition and some other accepting the amendments, so I foreshadow at members opposite to a number of so-called this time that the Government will not be whistleblower cases—and I say advisedly accepting them. "so-called whistleblower cases" because they I refer to a couple of other issues, one of are not, not one of them, genuine which is the criticisms that have been raised in whistleblowers—mentioned by the Senate some quarters, mainly by the Whistleblowers committee, including those of Lindeberg and Action Group. I think I have dealt with most of Harris. Mr Borbidge challenged the Government those, because most of them have been raised to take the confidential opinion of the Director of by members of the Opposition. There is a Prosecutions in respect of the Harris allegations. reference, however, in the whistleblowers' I think the Attorney-General dealt with the critique to the Bill making no provision for a Opposition more than comprehensively just prior whistleblower's spouse and children to receive to yesterday's question time. I have already compensation for reprisals. I would point out that responded to those matters in my letter to the this is not the case. The Bill allows anyone to Senate committee, which I tabled in this place on apply for civil damages if they have suffered 19 October and which is on the record of this detriment as a result of retaliation for place, if members want to have reference to whistleblowing. Hansard. The group also raises a criticism in relation to The next issue that was raised was one of a the provision for a public servant to be relocated. lack of consultation on the Bill. The facts are that The group says that this provision is nullified by nothing could be further from the truth. EARC requiring the chief executive officer of the unit to consulted extensively in the public and private which the whistleblower is transferred to consent sector. EARC received 48 submissions, to the move. With respect, it would make little including submissions from Mr De Maria, a sense to force a chief executive to accept a so-called academic, Mr Lindeberg and Mr Powell. whistleblower on transfer where the chief The parliamentary committee received 14 executive did not feel they could offer suitable submissions, including one again from Mr work for that person. Lindeberg. In considering the EARC recommendations, the Government took into The group also makes a criticism in relation account all comments made in the extensive to resources available to whistleblowers to help public consultation process. As I said before, the them make disclosures, including secretarial Whistleblowers Action Group seems to want to assistance, photocopying access, legal advice start the EARC review process all over again. If and counselling. That is, with respect, not we keep talking, we will never do anything. It is reasonable, but counselling will be available 17 November 1994 10516 Legislative Assembly through the Public Sector Management can be made to the Criminal Commission and through the Criminal Justice Justice Commission; but Commission. (b) the person does not wish to make There is another criticism raised in relation to the disclosure to the Criminal the Bill imposing no time limits on Justice Commission. departments—— (2) The person may instead make the Mr FitzGerald interjected. disclosure to the office of the Parliamentary Mr W. K. GOSS: If the member cannot Commissioner for Administrative write his own speech, I will not listen to his Investigations. interjections. (3) The disclosure is taken to be a The criticism is that the Bill imposes no time public interest disclosure made to an limits on departments to respond to disclosures. appropriate entity under section 26. It is said that, without these, justice for the (4) The office cannot refer the whistleblower is slow and ponderous. I stress disclosure to the Criminal Justice again that the Bill requires agencies to give Commission without the consent of the feedback on request. person. There is a further criticism that the Bill denies (5) An appropriate entity to which the the whistleblower—and this is really disclosure is referred cannot refer the precious—any co-involvement in investigations disclosure to the Criminal Justice of disclosures; it allows State structures to take Commission without the consent of the over the investigation. The Bill protects person.'." whistleblowers who make disclosures to I trust that members have a copy of the appropriate authorities, and they are defined to amendment; copies have been circulated. I will include "all information and help given by the not read it unless honourable members wish me discloser to the authority". It would be quite to do so. If members do not have copies, I will inappropriate to require whistleblowers to be take the time to read the amendment. involved in investigations. This would obviously cast doubt on the independence of the I move this particular amendment because investigative process. of the concerns that whistleblowers and a number of people have raised in relation to the I believe that this Bill is ground breaking. I Criminal Justice Commission. The Premier believe that this Bill goes further than any other seems to place a great deal of store on the jurisdiction in Australia and most in the world, if Criminal Justice Commission protecting not all in the world. This is ground-breaking whistleblowers. However, unfortunately, the CJC legislation for Queensland, ground-breaking has a conflict of interest, largely because of the legislation for Australia, and the Opposition types of investigations that this Government has should have the decency and grace, and in the been asking it to undertake. I referred to those case of the National Party, the embarrassment of investigations earlier in the debate. In fact, the the past, to support this legislation. CJC itself has been used to chase up alleged Motion agreed to. leaks from public servants, in the case of the northern toll road going as far as interviewing a State member of Parliament to try to discover Committee from where that member gleaned certain Hon. W. K. Goss (Logan—Premier and information. Minister for Economic and Trade Development) It is quite clear that the CJC does have a in charge of the Bill. conflict of interest in relation to this very matter. Clauses 1 to 26, as read, agreed to. Although this amendment does not set up an New clause 26A— independent authority as such—it is far too complex to do that within the legislation—we are Mr BEANLAND (9.22 p.m.): I move the nevertheless trying to provide the opportunity following amendment— for whistleblowers to go somewhere other than "At page 16, after line 12— the CJC. I accept that there are other places for insert— them to go, but in some instances the appropriate place is the CJC. Public servants, 'Office of Parliamentary Commissioner an particularly whistleblowers, have a lack of appropriate entity confidence—an outright fear—of going to the 26A.(1) This section applies if— CJC because of its past actions. One only has to (a) a person wishes to make a public look at what came out of the foxtail palm inquiry. interest disclosure of a type that Of course, there have been a number of other Legislative Assembly 10517 17 November 1994 instances as well. There is the famous case of independent authority, in this case the the Queensland Industry Development Ombudsman, it is quite wrong in principle for the Corporation, where the Treasurer sooled the whistleblower to have the power to dictate to that CJC onto people who allegedly leaked certain particular authority, in this case the Ombudsman, documents. how it should deal with the complaint. It is up to Whistleblowers are experiencing fear and the appropriate and authorised authority to apprehension. Those clear conflicts of interest determine that. This provision whereby the have been brought about by this Government Opposition gives the power to the whistleblower to dictate to the independent Ombudsman how because it has given enormous and horrendous he deals with the complaint is fundamentally powers to the CJC when in fact there were other wrong and obnoxious in law and policy. The courses of action that could have been taken by amendment also ignores the relevant sections of the Auditor-General, the police, etc., to chase up the Criminal Justice Act, in particular section leaked documents. After all, this Government 37 (2) (a), which requires that the Ombudsman came into power as a result of leaked and all principal officers report suspected official documents. It lived off them day by day. So it is a misconduct to the CJC. In short, the amendment little hypocritical for the Government to be so cannot be supported, it is totally unworkable and righteous and concerned about the leaking of it is fundamentally wrong in principle. the odd document, as I notice it has in recent times. Question—That new clause 26A be inserted—put; and the Committee divided— This amendment is put forward in a genuine attempt to assist in overcoming the conflicts of AYES, 26—Beanland, Connor, Cooper, Davidson, interest and the concerns and apprehension that Elliott, FitzGerald, Gamin, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, people have in relation to the Criminal Justice Johnson, Lester, Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Commission as regards whistleblowers. Perrett, Quinn, Santoro, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, Stephan, Turner, Veivers Tellers: Springborg, Laming Mr W. K. GOSS: I think I have dealt with this in general terms in my previous comments, NOES, 43—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, but I think it needs to be said again quite clearly Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Campbell, Casey, Clark, that the CJC is the proper authority. I do detect in D’Arcy, Davies, De Lacy, Dollin, Edmond, Elder, the Opposition ranks, particularly in the National Fenlon, Goss W. K., Hamill, Hayward, McElligott, Party, a pathological opposition to the Criminal McGrady, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Pearce, Power, Justice Commission, but it is one that is not Purcell, Robertson, Rose, Smith, Spence, warranted. We have all had our headaches from Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Vaughan, that body, but we have to try and make it work, Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: not tear it down because it does not suit our Livingstone, Budd particular political purposes in cynical and Resolved in the negative. dishonest complaints such as we saw from the The CHAIRMAN: I advise honourable member for Burnett and the Leader of the members that for any further divisions the bells Opposition in relation to Cape Melville and as we saw from the member for Western Downs and will be rung for two minutes. the Leader of the Opposition in relation to the Clauses 27 and 28, as read, agreed to. former secretary of Cabinet, Mr Tait. That sort of New clause 28A— despicable activity and its failure to result in a political dividend should not lead to the kind of Mr BEANLAND (9.36 p.m.): I move the criticism and undermining of the CJC that we following amendment— have seen consistently in this place. There is no "At page 18, after line 26— doubt in my mind that we are seeing the insert— continuation of an orchestrated campaign by the Opposition to lead to the undermining and 'Disclosures to anyone eventual abolition of the Criminal Justice 28A.(1) This section applies to a Commission. person who has made a public interest This particular proposed amendment, which disclosure to an appropriate entity. I understand is to authorise disclosures to the (2) If the person believes, on Ombudsman, is absurd and totally incompetent. reasonable grounds, that the entity, or The Ombudsman investigates wrongdoing in the another appropriate entity to which the area of discretionary decision making. This public interest disclosure was referred, has so-called amendment does not even confer the failed to take appropriate action on the necessary powers on the Ombudsman to disclosure, the person may make the investigate such matters, so the amendment is in disclosure to anyone, including for fact unworkable. Furthermore, once a publication by newspaper, television or whistleblower has made a complaint to an another media outlet. 17 November 1994 10518 Legislative Assembly

(3) A disclosure under subsection (2) is consequences for the reputation of innocent taken, for the purpose of Part 5, to be a citizens. public interest disclosure made to an Furthermore, the Government does not appropriate entity.'." accept the amendment for the reason that This particular clause relates to disclosures premature disclosure through the media could to the media. I listened very intently to what the prejudice an investigation likely to result from an Premier said about this. It is worth while noting allegation of official misconduct. that today in New South Wales, where the Labor Question—That new clause 28A be Party has very close numbers with the inserted—put; and the Committee divided— Government, the Labor Party has moved to toughen up the whistleblowers legislation. An AYES, 26—Beanland, Connor, Cooper, Davidson, article in today's Australian which highlights that Elliott, FitzGerald, Gamin, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, states— Johnson, Lester, Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Perrett, Quinn, Santoro, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, "Controversial NSW legislation to Stephan, Turner, Veivers Tellers: Springborg, Laming protect public servants who expose corruption to journalists hangs in the NOES, 43—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, balance in the State's Upper House after the Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Campbell, Casey, Clark, Opposition combined with Independent D’Arcy, Davies, De Lacy, Dollin, Edmond, Elder, MPs to strengthen the Bill. Fenlon, Goss W. K., Hamill, Hayward, McElligott, McGrady, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Pearce, Power, The amendments to the Protected Purcell, Robertson, Rose, Smith, Spence, Disclosures Bill will mean that public Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Vaughan, servants who provide the media or members Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: of Parliament with evidence of corrupt Livingstone, Budd conduct, maladministration or substantial waste would be protected from defamation Resolved in the negative. action." Clauses 29 to 37, as read, agreed to. The Government in this State seems to be New Part 4A— moving right away from any public disclosure to Mr BEANLAND (9.45 p.m.): I move the media outlets. After listening very closely to what following amendment— the Premier said, I do not believe that he put up an argument to indicate that this legislation "At page 26, after line 7— should cover no disclosure in every insert— circumstance, other than what would leave the 'PART 4A—WHISTLEBLOWERS person open to defamation or common law COUNSELLING UNIT action. Whistleblowers counselling unit I believe that the Opposition is trying to take a step towards ensuring that, in situations where 37A. The Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Investigations is to whistleblowers find themselves blocked at every establish a whistleblowers counselling unit turn, after some time appropriate action could be taken by them if they found that there was simply within the Commissioner's office. no other course of action and there could be Function of whistleblowers counselling considered to be reasonable grounds on which unit they could go to the media. That would not 37B.(1) The function of the happen overnight; it would happen down the whistleblowers counselling unit is to provide track some months after the person made the counselling and assistance about the initial whistleblowing allegations. I commend the following— amendment to the Chamber. (a) the kinds of disclosures that may Mr W. K. GOSS: The Bill already gives be made as public interest very wide legal protections to whistleblowers, disclosures; including absolute privilege in defamation (b) the way a public interest proceedings. If these protections are inappropriately conferred, they could result in disclosure may be made; the reputation of innocent citizens being (c) whether or not particular severely damaged. The test that is proposed by information disclosed to it may be this amendment is so loose and so broad that it disclosed as a public interest would lead to considerable problems for the disclosure; courts in determining whether or not the tests (d) how particular information have been met. It is, I believe, an inappropriate disclosed to it may be disclosed; application of the test, with serious potential Legislative Assembly 10519 17 November 1994

(e) the operation of this Act generally. Question—That new Part 4A be (2) It is not the function of the unit to inserted—put; and the Committee divided— accept and refer a public interest disclosure AYES, 26—Beanland, Connor, Cooper, Davidson, to an appropriate entity. Elliott, FitzGerald, Gamin, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Protection extended to information Johnson, Lester, Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, disclosed to unit Perrett, Quinn, Santoro, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, Stephan, Turner, Veivers Tellers: Springborg, Laming 37C. A statement made by a person to the whistleblowers counselling unit when NOES, 43—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, seeking advice or counselling from the unit Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Campbell, Casey, Clark, is taken, for the purpose of Part 5, to be a D’Arcy, Davies, De Lacy, Dollin, Edmond, Elder, public interest disclosure made to an Fenlon, Goss W. K., Hamill, Hayward, McElligott, appropriate entity.'." McGrady, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Pearce, Power, Purcell, Robertson, Rose, Smith, Spence, This amendment relates to the Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Vaughan, Whistleblowers Counselling Unit. This is a Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: proposal contained in both the EARC and Livingstone, Budd PEARC submissions. I have not received any indication from the Premier as to why he will not Resolved in the negative. accept this amendment and why it has not been Clauses 38 to 45, as read, agreed to. included in the legislation. Clause 46— If the Premier is going to indicate something Mr BEANLAND (9.51 p.m.): Subclause that is going to be set up under the CJC, then I (5) (b) provides that, if an employee is relocated suggest there is a small conflict of interest. How to another unit of the public sector, the other is he going to keep the counselling unit separate unit's chief executive officer must consent to the from the other operations of the CJC? There is relocation. I have grave concern that people will no doubt that this is a most important facet of the lose confidentiality if chief executive officers of whistleblowers legislation. It will act as a source of other departments are advised that they are counselling and assistance to any potential whistleblowers. As chief executive officers are whistleblower, explaining all the options for responsible to their relevant Ministers, other disclosures, that is, internal and external; people will be told of the predicament. There is requirements that the disclosures be reasonably no necessity for that. I understand that relocation based in order for the maker to be eligible for must be approved by the chief executive officer protection; potential pitfalls; rights and protection of the unit to which the whistleblower is to be available under legislation, and so forth. This is a transferred. When whistleblowers make very important unit that ought to be set up. It disclosures in the public interest, they cause would be an independent unit that should be set problems in the public sector. Sometimes they up under the legislation if the Government is fair are called whingers or subversives and are held dinkum about making it work. under suspicion. It is unnecessary to inform the Mr W. K. GOSS: The Criminal Justice chief executive officer of a department of a Commission already has a whistleblower support confidential matter about an officer who is program to provide support and counselling for transferred from another unit. The Opposition whistleblowers who assist the commission. In opposes clause 46 (5) (b). addition to that, the new ethics unit of the Public Mr W. K. GOSS: It is not an easy situation Sector Management Commission will be for a whistleblower. In a sense, the Government providing professional advice and support for did not have to include this option. However, it is public officers on ethics issues and also giving the self-proclaimed whistleblower an confidential counselling for whistleblowers. additional option. It has provided a range of Those functions do not require a statutory basis. protections and options to maximise and As for clause 37(c)—it is not necessary; the encourage the prospects of the whistleblower's Bill gives full protection for persons who seek bringing forward information of corruption or counselling from either of those sources. Clause official misconduct. This is another one of the 41 makes it unlawful to take a reprisal against many options and part of the flexibility that the anyone in the belief that they have made or may Government has provided. make a public interest disclosure. Therefore, to Whistleblowers do not have to seek this give an example, if an employer learns that an option. However, if they do, we have to be employee has sought counselling and victimises realistic and understand that, being what it is, the that employee in the belief that he or she is public service will work out quickly what is planning to make a disclosure, the employer occurring, particularly if a chief executive officer would be in breach of the Act. says to another chief executive officer, "We are 17 November 1994 10520 Legislative Assembly transferring this person to your department complex Bill that will affect a lot of people, yet whether you like it or not." Members must accept those people have not had a chance to have a that everybody will work out that that is code for really good look at it. What is the need for the "whistleblower, whistleblower". The Government rush? I would have thought that the Government wants to see that, if a whistleblower takes that would have taken a little bit of time, particularly in option, it is done with the support and regard to this Bill, which has had a 90 per cent acceptance of the new chief executive officer rewrite. and on the basis that the person has a Consultation for this Bill has been contribution to make to that department It is a undertaken with quite a large number of groups. much more healthy situation. We are kidding However, it must be quite clear that there has ourselves if we think that the character of the been selective consultation. It appears as person being forcibly transferred to that though the Government has, during these department is somehow to be kept secret. consultative periods, been very secretive. In Question—That Clause 46, as read, stand many cases, people have not been able to part of the Bill—put; and the Committee discuss with their members the implications and divided— complications of any changes that this legislation AYES, 44—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, may make. As such, people who may have more Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Campbell, Casey, Clark, expertise have not had an opportunity to view D’Arcy, Davies, De Lacy, Dollin, Edmond, Elder, this legislation. Fenlon, Goss W. K., Hamill, Hayward, McElligott, Mr Szczerbanik: Who hasn't had an input McGrady, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Pearce, Power, into this Bill? Purcell, Robertson, Robson, Rose, Smith, Spence, Mr HOBBS: We hear the wise man from Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Vaughan, the back. How many lawyers in the member's Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: area have had an opportunity to look at this Bill? Livingstone, Budd Not very many. NOES, 25—Beanland, Connor, Cooper, Davidson, I also mention the fact that, apparently, Elliott, FitzGerald, Gamin, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, proclamation of this Bill will not take place for Johnson, Lester, Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, three to six months. Why is that going to Perrett, Quinn, Santoro, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, happen? It is so people can have a chance to Stephan, Turner Tellers: Springborg, Laming look at it. Why did they not have a look at it before Resolved in the affirmative. the legislation is passed? I was told today that the Clauses 47 to 62 and Schedules 1 to 6, as Minister has said that, if any changes are read, agreed to. needed, amending legislation will be introduced in three to six months' time, and then it will be Bill reported, without amendment. passed. So I ask the question: why do we have to do it back to front? Third Reading This Bill covers a lot of areas, particularly Bill, on motion of Mr W. K. Goss, by leave, staged development, letting agreements, read a third time. management and other service contracts, voting, voting rights, body corporate records, disclosure requirements, new insurance procedures, lease- BUILDING UNITS AND GROUP TITLES back arrangements, the rights of mortgages that BILL are changed and body corporate committee Second Reading restructuring. So it is quite a comprehensive Bill, and a lot of work has been put into it. I take this Debate resumed from 27 October (see opportunity to congratulate the work of p. 10024). departmental officers that has been put into this Mr HOBBS (Warrego) (10.01 p.m.): legislation. The Green Paper that was released Tonight, I am pleased to speak to the Building first was not very successful. Obviously a lot of Units and Group Titles Bill. The Opposition gives work has been done by the department to try to cautious support to this legislation. It has some get the legislation to this stage. concerns mainly in relation to this legislation First of all, I would like to talk about staged being rushed through the House. This development. The legislation allows for the legislation has been three and a half years in staging of building units and group titles drafting, including the formulation of the Green development, now referred to as community title Paper in 1991, yet the Government wants to schemes. Staging will be based on a master plan pass it in three weeks. I thought that the to be lodged with the primary plan, which Government had learnt its lesson with the Land subdivides the whole site and establishes the Title Bill. Obviously, it has not. This is a very primary body corporate. This allows a purchaser a Legislative Assembly 10521 17 November 1994 better appreciation of what future development three-year review. I believe that that issue needs may happen. Certainly, the economic climate can to be examined. change in some instances, and there may be a The retrospective clause in relation to 24 need for a developer to change his or her October 1994, including extensions, relates to particular structure or plan. So it will allow the Minister's press release announcing that developers and home owners to have better there was going to be a 10-year time limit or lease cooperation and understanding. It is more of a period on letting rights, management contract grassroots approach to the development of their rights and, of course, service contracts. There is particular block or unit. The developer has the some argument within the public sector in option of creating a secondary body corporate relation to how long that time limit should have for each stage or can provide for the primary been—whether it should have been five years body corporate to cover all stages. To protect with the option of five years, or 10 years, or purchasers, the primary and second community whatever—and I think that that is an issue that we titles plan cannot depart from the master plan have to look at down the track. I am satisfied that without the unanimous resolution of all owners or what the Minister has put in the Bill may suffice at an order of the Supreme Court. Therefore, if a this time, but I reserve judgment to see how developer wants to change the structure of one things pan out over the next few months. of his unit areas, if he gets the total support of all the people, then it is all right. The developers will The letting agreement also protects be able to get relief from contribution to levies agreements signed after 4 May 1994, and associated with stages already developed and declares from that date that body corporates sold or still to be developed by provision for the have the power to enter into letting agreements. establishment of separate administrative and That was as a result of the High Court decision. sinking funds for each separate development, lot As to management and other service or stage. contracts—this new legislation imposes a Another development is the introduction of number of compulsory criteria on the entry into a power for a body corporate to enter into and regulation of contracts with body corporate arrangements with other bodies corporate for the managers, letting agents, caretakers and other sharing of facilities such as tennis courts and services contractors engaged for more than one swimming pools. That will be of particular benefit year. I point out that any service contract entered to large-scale staged developments. It will also into after 24 October 1994 is limited to a be of benefit to the smaller developments, maximum term of 10 years, including extensions. particularly those units that are reasonably close Services contracts other than with letting agents together or, in fact, side by side. One may have a must be reviewed and may be terminated by the tennis court and the other may have a swimming body corporate at the first annual general pool. If the developments want to coordinate meeting after the expiry of the third financial year those facilities, that should be quite favourable. of the body corporate. I suppose letting agreements has been the The right of exclusive use of common most controversial issue in this Bill. Time will tell property for service contractors, including letting whether the Minister has it right. The matter does agents, can be implemented only by an ordinary need some clarification, and I hope that the resolution of the body corporate, not a by-law. Minister will be able to give that clarification in his The term is to be identical with the term of the reply. Although I believe that the issue is service contract itself. The body corporate is reasonably clear in the Bill, there appears to be a unable to terminate the right whilst the service diverse opinion among some lawyers. Today, we contract is still on foot. Contractors need some were speaking with a couple of lawyers from one security in this regard. I believe that is quite firm about service contracts and letting agents, necessary. The right for the body corporate to and both had different opinions. What happens if terminate management contracts after three they are, in fact, one and the same? At page 3 of years will no doubt concern some developers. the Explanatory Notes it states— There probably does need to be some provision for an independent adjudicator. What would "All service contracts entered into happen if, say, a service contractor or perhaps a within the first three years, with the body corporate manager is unfairly dismissed? exception"— There probably does need to be some type of referring to service contracts— independent adjudicator who can make sure that "of those relating to letting agents." nothing untoward happens. That can be interpreted by some people as The controls under the existing Act meaning that if a letting agent and a service generally prohibit people who have a financial contractor are one and the same, they may be interest in a particular matter from voting as proxy able to have a full 10-year contract without the for another person on that matter. The new Act 17 November 1994 10522 Legislative Assembly extends and clarifies those restrictions. In separate registers of movable assets, body particular, proxies are not transferable, lapse at corporate management and service contracts, the end of the body corporate's financial year at transactions affecting the common property and the latest, can be overridden by the personal by-laws. The will have to keep specified attendance at a meeting or the casting of a accounting records, copies of insurance policies, written vote by the person who gave the proxy, contracts correspondence, minutes and so on. and cannot be given to letting agents, body They will have to allow owners, mortgagees and corporate managers or service contractors. That purchasers of lots to inspect the body is one of the most important aspects, and it has corporate's register and records. The new Act been a bone of contention, particularly with unit changes the nature and format of the records to owners, for quite some time. That may resolve be kept by the body corporate and will involve a some of the major problems that we have had for considerable restructuring of some of those some time. records. Also, the proxy votes are not transferable in The disclosure requirements are a very a contract of sale, but sale contracts may still important part of this legislation, and are make the original owner/developer the particularly important to those who wish to sell a purchaser's representative for voting on unit, whether it be down the track, today or particular issues, which will be prescribed by tomorrow. The requirements for disclosure of regulation. This is what is always difficult in information to prospective purchasers have relation to a lot of the legislation that is coming been significantly increased. Disclosure before the House now. The regulation comes in statements must be given not only by the original later on and we really do not know exactly what it proprietor but also by any vendor, including a will be or how far it will go. That will be for a period mortgagee exercising power of sale. The not exceeding two years from the date of the information required in the statements includes, registration of the relevant plan. Similar for example, names and addresses of vendor restrictions will apply to the use of powers of and purchaser; identification of lots and any attorney by original proprietors to control the exclusive use rights; description of body corporate or voting after the sale of lots. improvements on the lot; copy of the body The new legislation will restrict the use of such corporate's last budget or proposed budget; a powers of attorney to matters which are copy of the by-laws; details of court proceedings disclosed in the contract of sale and which are relating to the lot or common property; details of expressly permitted by regulation. the referee's orders; and a certificate to be As to the body corporate committees, their provided by the body corporate containing make-up and the numbers of people details of annual levies, payment status nature of involved—the Government has stipulated in the agreements between the owners and the body legislation a minimum of three and a maximum of corporate and details of body corporate seven. I believe that it needs to be made quite management contracts and/or service contracts. clear to the people out there who in the past The amount of information required to be perhaps have felt intimidated by their letting given by both original and subsequent agent or manager—and I am referring to the unit proprietors will necessitate a significant change owners—that they can now vote for up to seven to the way in which real estate transactions are people. This does make it more flexible. I negotiated and documented in Queensland. It is understand that at present there is no number very important. The public must be aware of this. pre-set for the membership of a body corporate At this stage, I have not seen a press statement committee. That is fine. Perhaps the Minister may from the Minister pointing out that particular be able to explain what happens down the track issue. It may have been there, but it certainly has after that. For instance, what would happen if a not hit the headlines. We should alert people to body corporate decided to have six on its that. committee? What happens the next time it has an annual meeting? I presume that that will be the Vendors and their agents will need to collate same but, if there is a need to increase that all the necessary information for the disclosure number, maybe they can do that. statement and obtain the necessary certification from the body corporate before proceeding to Importantly, we should look at body contract. Just as important, the statement and corporate records. Many body corporates should accompanying information is deemed to form understand the consequences of what is part of the contract of sale and purchase and the required of them now. They will be required to vendor is deemed to have warranted its keep a roll with details of owners, lot accuracy. Vendors may find themselves liable to entitlements, joint tenancies and company the purchaser for damages for breach of warranty nominees. They will be required to keep if the information provide by the body corporate Legislative Assembly 10523 17 November 1994 is inaccurate. So it is very important that the Lease-back arrangements are also provided public are fully informed of exactly what the for. I will not canvass that issue, but that is situation is and what the consequences are. In certainly a new and innovative method. Time will those situations, vendors will no doubt look to tell as to how it develops. I believe that it is the body corporate and body corporate covered appropriately. managers for any loss they suffer as a result of I want to deal with mortgagees in further actions taken by a dissatisfied purchaser. It will detail. The rights of mortgagees have been therefore be very important for vendors, bodies altered substantially. Mortgagees will no longer corporate and body corporate managers to be entitled to be noted on the roll of the body ensure that the information provided by the body corporate and are not entitled as of right to corporate is accurate. notices of general meetings unless they have Insurance is also a very important change. elected to enforce their mortgage and given There are a lot of changes in relation to the notice of that election. The provisions in the structure of insurance in this legislation. The existing Act allowing mortgagees, if they wish, to body corporate, and not the owners, will be vote in place of proprietors have been omitted. It obliged to insure lots in a group titles plan on is doubtful that under the terms of the mortgage which buildings with common walls are a mortgagee can effectively insist on being constructed and to recover the levies from the appointed as the owner's representative to vote owners of those lots—that is, based on at meetings of the body corporate. I believe that respective values of improvements—where much more work needs to be undertaken on that there are no common walls. The members of the aspect. group title body corporate may still pass a by-law I turn now to the carrying out of resolutions to authorise the body corporate to take out of the body corporate and the seven-day period insurance on the improvements of those lots of exhibition of a resolution of the body whose owners wish to utilise a common policy. corporate. It has been brought to my attention That is very sensible. In the past, certain that if a very important motion is put before a problems have arisen in some buildings. For body corporate, is passed and seven days goes instance, where piping or wiring had deteriorated by, the body corporate can proceed to act on it. to the stage at which it had to be replaced, However, in many cases unit owners live all over confusion existed as to whether it was part of the Australia and also overseas. I know what it is like ceiling of one unit or the floor of the other. This at home. Out our way, it takes three days to legislation resolves that matter and makes the receive mail and any response of ours spends body corporate responsible for the rectification. three days in the post. The seven-day exhibition Mortgagees will be able to have their period provided under the legislation is too interest noted on the body corporate insurance short. Although I accept that certain things must policy for buildings, and they can also have be done expeditiously, there is provision in the separate insurance. There is another aspect to Bill for emergency work that must be undertaken this matter. Some mortgagees may feel that they quickly. Orders of the referee can be carried out are being given the backdoor treatment. Let us quickly. I believe that a longer exhibition period consider the case of the owners of a large block than seven days must be provided—14 days at the minimum and perhaps even 21 days. I appeal of units proposing to buy out the smaller block for an extension of time in that regard. located beside it. The finance company may find that in such a scenario the smaller block of units One of the provisions of the legislation is devalued but it has no control over the matter. appears to contain a restriction that an owner may In the past, mortgagees had a voting right. They not submit more than one motion to a body no longer have that right under this legislation. I corporate general meeting. The legislation states am not suggesting that that should be included that the owner, by written notice to the secretary, in the legislation, but I believe that there needs may request that a particular to be some mechanism in place to address that motion—singular—be included in the agenda for problem. The finance company should not have a general meeting. That is probably just a to assume the status of mortgagee in typographical error, but I would like it to be possession. Perhaps there could be another clarified. What if a particular unit holder seeks to stage before that through which the finance propose more than one motion? Is that permitted company can negotiate with the unit owner so under this legislation? that one or the other could vote on a resolution I have canvassed most of the issues that I before the body corporate, particularly in the wanted to touch upon. This Bill is very case of a non-dissenting resolution or where a unanimous decision is required. comprehensive, and a lot of work has gone into it. Many more amendments will be made before 17 November 1994 10524 Legislative Assembly the legislation is finally correct. I believe that the Bill should have laid on the table for a longer period. It is unfortunate that it was introduced towards the end of the year. A longer period in which the Bill could have been considered would have made life easier not only for the Opposition but also for all those unit owners and developers who will be using this legislation as their bible for quite some time. Debate, on motion of Mr Beattie, adjourned. The House adjourned at 10.27 p.m.