COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 27 MAY 1998

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SEVENTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 27 MAY

Parliamentary Zone: National Archives of Australia 3149 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1998— In Committee ...... 3149 Third Reading ...... 3161 National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1997, National Transmission Network Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1997— Second Reading ...... 3161 Consideration of Legislation ...... 3184 Matters of Public Interest— National Debt ...... 3184 Prime Minister ...... 3187 Whistleblowing: Heiner Inquiry ...... 3190 New South Wales Electricity Industry ...... 3192 Information Superhighway ...... 3195 Questions Without Notice— Employment Services ...... 3198 Mr Christopher Skase ...... 3198 Distinguished Visitors ...... 3200 Questions Without Notice— Minister for Resources and Energy: Farm Assistance Package ...... 3200 Gold Industry: Native Title ...... 3201 Employment Services ...... 3202 Education: Funding ...... 3203 Minister for Resources and Energy: Farm Assistance Package ...... 3204 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 3205 Trusts: Taxation ...... 3206 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 3208 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 3210 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Aboriginal Housing ...... 3211 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Medicare Offices ...... 3212 Answers to Questions on Notice— Indonesia ...... 3220 Telstra ...... 3220 Personal Explanations ...... 3220 Answers to Questions on Notice— Question No. 1121 ...... 3221 Question No. 1118 ...... 3222 Question No. 1129 ...... 3222 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Trusts: Taxation ...... 3231 Petitions— Uranium ...... 3235 Uranium ...... 3235 Gender Identity ...... 3235 Medicines ...... 3236 Notices of Motion— Consideration of Legislation ...... 3236 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee ...... 3236 Higher Education ...... 3236 One Nation Party ...... 3236 Pork Industry ...... 3236 Introduction of Legislation ...... 3237 Native Title ...... 3237 Australian Conservation Foundation ...... 3237 Native Title ...... 3237 CONTENTS—continued

Health ...... 3238 Australasian Police Ministers’ Council ...... 3238 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report ...... 3239 Order of Business— Census ...... 3245 Medical Research ...... 3245 Committees— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee— Meeting ...... 3245 Order of Business— Film Classification ...... 3245 Foreign Policy ...... 3245 Consideration of Legislation ...... 3249 India: Nuclear Testing ...... 3249 Committees— Community Affairs Legislation Committee—Extension of Time .... 3249 Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 3249 Ministerial Statements— National Reconciliation Week ...... 3249 Committees— Employment, Education and Training References Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 3257 Legal and Constitutional References Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 3272 Treaties Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 3275 Membership ...... 3278 Child Support Legislation Amendment Bill 1998— First Reading ...... 3278 Second Reading ...... 3278 National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1997, National Transmission Network Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1997— Second Reading ...... 3279 Documents— Australian National University ...... 3281 Antarctic Science Advisory Committee ...... 3285 Adjournment— Ecumenical Prayer ...... 3286 Queensland: Environment ...... 3287 Torres Strait: Drugs Trafficking ...... 3287 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 3288 Kundun ...... 3290 Legal Aid ...... 3292 Documents— Tabling ...... 3294 Unproclaimed Legislation ...... 3294 Questions On Notice— Export Finance Investment Corporation—(Question No. 1091) ..... 3295 Natural Heritage Trust—(Question No. 1112) ...... 3297 Ministerial Code of Conduct—(Question No. 1124) ...... 3297 Department of Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs: Qualitative and Quantitative Research—(Question No. 1144) ..... 3297 Commonwealth Employment Service—(Question No. 1148) ...... 3298 Department for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs: Advertising—(Question No. 1162) ...... 3299 SENATE 3149

Wednesday, 27 May 1998 Treasurer, is absent. I am sure he is rushing down here, eagerly anxious to answer your question, but I am certainly not capable of an- The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. swering it. I regret to say that, until Senator Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., Kemp arrives, I am at some disadvantage. and read prayers. I do have here some advice from the advis- ers on withholding arrangements rationalis- PARLIAMENTARY ZONE: NATIONAL ation and I will put to you the rationalisation. ARCHIVES OF AUSTRALIA Senator Faulkner—This is a filler! Motion (by Senator Minchin) agreed to: That, in accordance with section 5 of the Parlia- Senator MINCHIN—That is right. I am ment Act 1974, the Senate approves the proposal by advised that remittances made by cash or the National Capital Authority, on behalf of the cheques increase ATO handling costs. National Archives of Australia, for signage on its Cheques, in particular, have a minimum new headquarters, formerly known as East Block clearing time affecting delays in collection. In in the Parliamentary Zone. recent years the commercial trend has shifted TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT significantly towards conducting business by BILL (No. 3) 1998 electronic means. In fact, financial institutions are actively encouraging the use of EFT In Committee because of the benefits it provides: better Consideration resumed from 26 May. security, reduced paper flows, certainty of delivery, improved cash management, and The CHAIRMAN—Order! The Committee reduced processing and reconciliation costs is considering the Taxation Laws Amendment compared to cheques. It has been estimated Bill (No. 3) 1998, to which the government that 95 per cent of large remitters are already has moved amendment No. 1 on sheet connected to or have access to EFT. B98AF338WB. When the Committee was last considering the bill Senator Margetts had Senator Margetts—Sorry, was that 95? moved amendment No. R1 on sheet 1003 as Senator MINCHIN—Ninety-five per cent an amendment to the government amendment. of large remitters are already connected to or The question is that Senator Margetts’ amend- have access to EFT. I am advised that there ment be agreed to. are 5,500 large remitters, therefore we are Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) only talking about five per cent of large (9.32 a.m.)—I would like to ask Senator remitters incurring the cost of setting up an Minchin, the Minister representing the Assist- EFT facility—five per cent of 5,500. In most ant Treasurer, how large remitters currently cases, it is merely a matter of extending the make their payments. Do they all do so by use of the EFT package to handle payments electronic transfer? Or do some use other to the ATO. It is not envisaged that this new means such as a cheque? If so, what propor- arrangement will place any unrealistic burden tion and/or numbers pay other than by elec- on this group of taxpayers as the approximate tronic transfer? Are some large remitters cost of the necessary software is between $75 paying other than by electronic transfer and, and $400. if they are, why did the government amend Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) the original clause to eliminate the option for (9.35 a.m.)—I thank Senator Minchin, the a large remitter to make other arrangements Minister representing the Assistant Treasurer. for payment with the commissioner? What is I think the Minister representing the Assistant the rationale for the penalty, particularly if the Treasurer has read from advice that puts the payments are made on time? finger on exactly what I was saying yesterday, Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— that it is 95 per cent of large remitters, so five Special Minister of State and Minister Assist- per cent do not. But there is no indication that ing the Prime Minister) (9.33 a.m.)—You there was actually a problem. The only may notice that Senator Kemp, the Assistant indication of a problem in the advice that has 3150 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 just been read out was that that was what come through the Senate, and everyone will financial institutions would prefer. That is have a chance to comment. what they are pushing everybody to do. Here The next point I would make is that these we have, in my opinion, legislation being are very large remitters. This is not an indi- used as a kind of corporate fascism. vidual. Under the new withholding arrange- The corporations would like to reduce their ments, large remitters are those with deduc- profits, so it is not actually to do with choice tions exceeding $1 million. These are the but rather it is about the fact that the banking larger remitters. This is not Joe Blow in the corporations do not want to process other street. As my colleague, Senator Minchin, people’s cheques. They are starting with some pointed out when I was delayed outside the bits of legislation, obviously chewing the ear chamber, some 95 per cent of large remitters of the government successfully and saying, are already connected or have access to the ‘We would like you to legislate to reduce our EFT, and there are 5,500 of them. So the first costs by taking away choice.’ In this particu- point is that we are not talking about the lar case it is choice that affects companies. small shopkeeper; we are talking about the We have examples of the choices to occur large remitters, of which there are 5,500. in relation to analogue and digital televisions, There is no merit in the slippery slope argu- and analogue and digital telecommunications, ment because the truth of the matter is that, but I believe we are going to see a raft of in each case where we wish to impose par- legislation to take away the choice of busines- ticular rules, the bills will have to come ses and to take away the choice of consumers, through the Senate, and the Senate would penalising people not because it is late but presumably have a view on it. because they have paid by cheque, even if The final 40 per cent of your argument is they are on time or early, to reduce the costs that this is being driven by the banks. It is not of corporations. In the end, I believe that being driven by the banks. We believe this is leaves less choice for the rest of us because the most efficient way to do it. It is more we will get legislation saying, ‘To go in line efficient from the Tax Office’s point of view with the rest of corporate practice, we are and, frankly, we believe it is more efficient going to legislate that everybody has to do from the corporations’ point of view. But it is their banking and everybody has to make not being driven by the banks—it is being their payments at some stage by electronic driven by us. It is better for the Tax Office transfer on the basis that we assume that, and better for efficiency to do it this way, and eventually, everybody will have access to the 95 per cent of the people believe it. So you Internet.’ I am not using the slippery-slope are wrong on the slipper slope, wrong that it thing as my major argument; what I am may attack small individuals, and wrong that suggesting is that you have not given any it was driven by the banks. It is driven by us. argument, other than that the banks and the financial institutions want it, to suggest why Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) we are actually imposing penalties on com- (9.40 a.m.)—I would suggest that the minister panies for not paying in the manner that look at the actual notes. Basically, the only banks want them to pay. positive reason that was given was that the financial institutions would prefer it. I was Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant simply echoing the very statements that were Treasurer) (9.38 a.m.)—I have to say that I made. I wrote down the words that were think that you have completely missed the mentioned by the minister. I did not say that point here. You said, ‘I’m not using the I was not using the slippery slope argument; slippery slope argument,’ but the reality is I said I was not using it as the mainstay of that I think the Hansard will show that some my speech. However, I can give you any 60 per cent of your comments related to the number of examples—for example, tax file so-called slippery slope argument. The truth numbers. What did we hear the first time that of the matter is that, where governments want tax file numbers were proposed? We were to bring in changes, these bills will have to told, ‘Oh, it’s only about this. It’s only for Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3151 ease.’ Eventually, tax file numbers will be by doing it this way. In any case, it is with used for just about every element that is the approval of the Tax Commissioner. involved with people’s personal, financial and Therefore, one imagines an interactive process other information. between the larger remitter and the Tax The reality is that, with this so-called easy Commissioner so that the efficiency elements way of slipping information—whether it is are best dealt with having in mind the capa- financial information; whatever the real bility of the company concerned. But on what security issues are, whatever the choices are, side of the argument do you fall—for it or for whatever reason—those five per cent of agin it? We fall on the side for the large remitters have chosen to continue their government’s position because we do not see bank remission. They are choosing that the particular imposition. We do think the themselves. What you are saying is, ‘You time value of money is important. This may not choose it any longer and, what’s guarantees that that issue is best addressed more, if you do choose it, we are going to here. slap a fine on you. We are going to say you We are moving forward, too, in terms of are breaking the law.’ electronic commerce. This is an element of Senator COOK (Western Australia— electronic commerce that is being implement- Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the ed through the tax system. If anything, one Senate) (9.42 a.m.)—Last night, when this praises the tax system for being aware of debate was drawing to the witching hour, modern technological and business practice there was some ambiguity in the position of and in moving with the times in this amend- the opposition in the sense that I said I was ment, not against it. We therefore support it. disposed. Let me clarify the ambiguity: I Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) support the proposal of the government and (9.44 a.m.)—I can read the numbers quite I do not support the proposal of the Greens. clearly. That was one of the reasons for I have great admiration for the tenacity and continuing to clarify the reason this morning; fighting spirit of Senator Margetts. It is on giving the ALP time to make that clarifica- display again this morning, and one should tion. I thank Senator Cook for making that admire and respect that. However, from the clarification, even if I am rather concerned opposition’s point of view, large remitters are about the outcomes. I want to ask one final not downtrodden people and are, by defini- question. I know Senator Kemp has been tion, large organisations remitting big licks of involved with the discussions in relation to money to the Australian tax system. the multilateral agreement on investment. The time value of that money that is remit- Because it is to the corporate benefit in terms ted is important and cannot be swept aside in of banking, if there is overseas investment in this argument. If it comes by way of cheque, the banking corporations, I wonder whether the Tax Office does not actually receive the by making this choice it is now illegal to pay money until it is cleared, which may be by cheque. If there is any problem with this several days or a week or more after the particular change in legislation, under the cheque has been signed. That might seem to multilateral agreement on investment we be a small point. Given the volume and would never be able to change our mind amount of money concerned, it is actually because it would be imposing an extra cost on quite an important point. To transfer these the large corporations as opposed to some of funds in an efficient way is what the amend- those other remitters who may not necessarily ment is about. be international corporations. I do not think that anyone will argue that Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant large remitters lack the capacity to do this. In Treasurer) (9.46 a.m.)—I have to say that this fact, the government has just announced that debate is ranging very far and wide. Last 98 per cent of them do have the capacity to night we got into trust losses and franking do this, and I do not think we are imposing credit trading. Now we are into the multi- an unfair imposition on the other two per cent lateral agreement on investment. I want to 3152 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 make a general plea that we try to keep this Senator Kemp—What? debate as tight and as succinct as possible. Senator MARGETTS—There was never Senator Murray—You should have done any statement made that Australia was not that last night. prepared to sign in May. All the public Senator Margetts—Yes, terrific! statements said that Australia was ready to negotiate this in May—that is, this month. It Senator KEMP—What I was seeking to do was other countries who Australia stood was to respond to a very wide range of behind, saying it was their problems not ours. questions which I received last night, Senator All those statements said that. Given that that Murray. is the case, and at some stage we are going to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- go back to the table, I simply asked in this tor Patterson)—Minister, please address your measure in this legislation whether it meant remarks through the chair. that we were taking a one-way step. Senator KEMP—I am making a general Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant point. I am not trying to score a political Treasurer) (9.49 a.m.)—This legislation will point. All I am saying is that this debate is not be overruled by the MAI. ranging very far and wide. Senator Margetts—Not now, it won’t. Senator Margetts has raised the multilateral agreement on investment. There are huge Senator KEMP—The Australian govern- divisions between countries in relation to the ment will insist that it has the capacity to multilateral agreement on investment, and it make its own laws in relation to this issue. is unlikely that they will be resolved in the This government will protect its national foreseeable future. The second point I would interest, as it always has. There has been no make on the multilateral agreement on invest- statement by anyone that we were ready to ment is that Australia has some particular sign in May. To be quite frank, I have said problems with it. We will not be signing any quite the contrary. That is quite wrong, and I treaty which is not in line with our national want to put that on the record. interest. I know there is a desperate desire Amendment (by Senator Margetts) not amongst some groups to belt this up. The agreed to. truth is that there is no imminent signing of Amendment (by Senator Kemp) agreed to. any multilateral agreement on investment. There are a lot of issues which remain to be The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The resolved. question is that section 220AAW stand as printed. Senator Margetts, you are opposing Australia will always protect its national section 220AAW? interest, as it does in relation to all treaties— environment treaties, trade treaties and multi- Senator Margetts—I am having trouble lateral agreements on investment. Australia’s finding my place. position will always be protected. I can assure Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant you that Australia, above all, will retain the Treasurer) (9.52 a.m.)—To give Senator right to make sure its laws can be appropriate- Margetts some time, I think her first motion ly and fairly applied. deals with whether people had to make the Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) transfer by electronic transmission. This one (9.48 a.m.)—If anyone was ranging far and seeks to remove the penalty for those who do wide, it was the minister in that particular not. I think that is the purpose of the amend- case. I asked a specific question. I was not ment moved by Senator Margetts. ranging far and wide. In this particular exam- We are opposing this motion. A lot of the ple, we are being asked to change legislation arguments were canvassed in the earlier which will be to the benefit of and will debate. The penalty of $500 is set at a level reduce the costs of the large corporate banks. above the cost of acquiring an EFT facility. If we make this change under the MAI, which Frankly, the cost of the facility is, as we have Australia was prepared to sign this month— said, in the order of $75 to $400 and is Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3153 designed to influence a large remitter—again, ing its own bill in bringing forward this we are talking about very large remitters, amendment. We note as well that it has done those of $1 million and over—into acquiring so after this chamber insisted on this legisla- the necessary EFT facilities. Each time a tion going to a Senate committee for public payment is made by non-electronic means, it inquiry. One imagines that this amendment raises the costs to the tax office. So, for the has been generated by the response to this reasons which we stated in the earlier debate legislation at the inquiry and because of the and for the particular reasons I have stated interest in this legislation prompted by the now, we will be opposing the motion. inquiry and other people who have been Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) alarmed at this section. (9.53 a.m.)—I thank the Senate for its pa- But it is worthwhile to note that, since the tience. Yes, I suppose, in a way, this is our parliament has insisted on that process of preferred position. The first amendment to the open disclosure and a chance for the com- government’s amendment was on the basis munity to respond to its measures, the govern- that the government’s amendment was likely ment is now moving, albeit in a minor way. to be dealt with first. Our first amendment We support the amendment. was to remove the penalties. In reality, having Amendment agreed to. penalties and having something which is not Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) being allowed are one and the same thing. (9.56 a.m.)—by leave—I move: Basically, our next step is to oppose the (1) Schedule 10, item 4, page 142 (after line 6), section and get the government to go back to after Step 1 of the method statement, insert: the drawing board and work out why they are Step 1A If your total *savings and investment having trouble with late remitters and, if they income is less than or equal to are, deal with it. But I really think this is the $35,000, follow Steps 2 to 4. wrong way to go about it. We have had the Step 1B If your total *savings and investment debate and I will not be holding the Senate up income is between $35,000 and any longer. But I guess we would need a bolt $39,000, follow Steps 2 to 4A. of lightning to change the way things have Step 1C If your total *savings and investment been debated so far. So I simply put that we income is equal to or greater than oppose the section. $39,000, you don’t get a tax offset under this section. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- (2) Schedule 10, item 4, page 142 (after line 20), tor Patterson)—The question is that section after Step 4 of the method statement, insert: 220AAW be agreed to. Step 4A Multiply the amount derived in Step Question resolved in the affirmative. 4 by: Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant $39,000—your total taxable income Treasurer) (9.54 a.m.)—I move: 4000 (10) Schedule 9, item 2, page 107 (line 25), after Before I move into the motivation for my "is", insert "to the entity,". amendment, I should comment on remarks I After reviewing the submissions that the made in my speech during the second reading definition of ‘payment’ was too broad, the debate concerning our intention to move government decided to amend the definition amendments about employee share ownership. to make it exhaustive. A minor consequential We had discussions with the government, amendment is necessary to ensure that the which we appreciated. As a result of those definition covers payments made directly to discussions, we decided that our intention was a shareholder or associate. probably not appropriate. Senator COOK (Western Australia— We still believe that this is an area where Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the there are problems. We are aware that tax acts Senate) (9.55 a.m.)—The opposition will be come before us regularly. We give notice to supporting this amendment by the govern- the Senate that we will still consider measures ment. We note that the government is amend- in this area which we hope to be able to 3154 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 discuss with the other parties of the Senate. thought that the rebate should be added to the We would make sure that those principles we account rather than paid to the taxpayer are pursuing would not allow the rorts that the directly. They thought that the rebate should government has rightly sought to stop with extend to compulsory superannuation so that this legislation, an action we support it in. low and middle income wage earners can The amendments we would seek would not significantly benefit or, at the very least, be unduly penalise and discourage more flexible restricted to long-term financial savings, other employee share ownership arrangements. So than superannuation, and be strictly income we will be looking at that further, but we tested. thank the government for its advice and as- We take the view that those principles sistance in the matter. should be borne in mind by the two major If I can now turn to the savings rebate parties competing for who will be in govern- amendments we are putting, I would remind ment next time and, hopefully, they will have you that in our remarks during the second regard to them when they review the very reading debate we indicated our support for important issue of trying to improve our measures to increase Australian private sav- Australian savings. ings. That is almost a motherhood statement; I cannot imagine any politician or political The tax rebate we are considering is a very party or organisation which would not say expensive measure. The 1997 budget project- such a thing. But the objectives of savings are ed losses in revenue of $350 million, $1.4 obviously to reduce overseas borrowing billion and a massive $2 billion over the next requirements, increase the financing of Aus- three financial years, which is a great deal of tralian business and infrastructure develop- money. We thought, frankly, that the govern- ment and, indeed, improve our entire national ment should have conceded that they got this economic health. policy wrong, but they have not. Therefore, we believe that the rebates must be means We must, however, now move to criticism. tested and that is what this amendment is We, and I think other parties in the Senate, about. believe that the savings rebate intended by the government will not achieve the aim of in- The Australian Democrats said before the creasing savings. Treasury considers that the 1996 election that a savings rebate should be rebate would actually reduce net national targeted towards longer term savings and be savings, because high income earners will be means tested. The coalition’s 1996 pre-elec- rewarded for doing what they are already tion commitment means tested the savings doing and low income earners will generally initiative, phasing out between net taxable be unable to save money anyway. incomes of $35,000 and $39,000. Savings initiatives we think should be Our amendment, in fact, presents the directed towards increasing medium-term and coalition’s pre-1996 policy of means testing long-term savings. With this in mind, and, in so doing, it would head off a tax ACOSS, the Australian Council of Social windfall for those on higher incomes—who Service, did suggest four principles for mak- are going to be doing what they are doing ing the rebate more effective and equitable. I anyway—and would save $1 billion a year will repeat these to the Senate because we which hopefully the government might like to thought they were particularly helpful. put into education, health, legal aid, rail ACOSS thought the rebate should be infrastructure or industry policy. I am sure restricted to long-term financial savings, such senators could all give a long list of matters as through superannuation and financial in that regard. institution accounts that are maintained for at We are also attempting to introduce what least five years. ACOSS thought that the we thought was Labor Party policy. Mr rebate should be linked to contributions and Beazley, the Leader of the Opposition, in deposits rather than interest so as to make Hansard on 14 May 1997 in a question to the savings of smaller amounts worthwhile. It Prime Minister said: Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3155

Since the Prime Minister has said that he will not Senator COOK (Western Australia— accept the $450 savings rebate, will he then join Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the me in supporting an amendment that I will move Senate) (10.04 a.m.)—Since the Greens (WA) to his legislation to ensure that all people at our level are income tested out of this? are looking very carefully to see whether the opposition will support this measure, let me In other words, this is means testing. On 17 help them not to have to stare fixedly for too May 1997, Ian Davis of the Canberra Times long and declare the position of the ALP. reported: We will not be supporting the amendments Mr Beazley repeated his warning that the opposi- of the Australian Democrats and we are not tion would attempt to amend the government’s supporting them for the reason that this was savings rebate announced in the budget so as to means test it, while Mr Howard continued to a budget measure announced in the 1997-98 defend the government’s failure to test it. budget. I know it is odd and strange that the government has not given prominence to its However, we were a bit dismayed—and quite own budgetary centrepiece from that budget— often it seems there is conflict—to discover not of this year, but of last year—by not that the shadow Treasurer said on 1 April bringing this legislation into this chamber 1998 in Hansard: earlier and fiddling around with it, but it is . . . Labor’s general position that governments are nonetheless a budget measure and we do not entitled to their major budget measures, however wish to play an obstructionist role in opposing wrong-headed those measures might be. According- central measures from a budget such as this. ly I do indicate now that the opposition does not propose to oppose this measure. We think it is very However, it is an uneasy decision for us to bad policy. We think it is a disgrace, certainly, make because there are two competing princi- compared with the company-contribution regime ples. They are principles that were enunciated that it replaced. by the Democrats in explaining their legisla- So, Labor continued to have the view that tion, and supported by the Greens (WA), and it is a terrible thing, but the shadow Treasurer the principle about budget measures. We opt seemed to be saying he would not do any- to take the principle of budget measures as a thing about it. I would have thought from the superior reason in this circumstances. That is minister’s perspective that he would prefer a not to say that we out of sympathy at all with consistent approach from the opposition, even what the Democrats have put and, indeed, the where he did not agree with it. Certainly, we arguments that they have made for the very would prefer that. good reason that the arguments they have I make a plea to the Senate to support this made are sound. amendment. We think it implements the While a centrepiece of 1997-98 budget, this policy of the coalition, which we thought was is nonetheless a measure which has received a good policy; we think it implements the considerable justifiable criticism by economic intention of Leader of the Opposition, with commentators and political parties, not the which we agree; and most importantly of all, least of which is the Australian Labor Party, it will save about $1 billion, which could be as an ill-targeted and unfair measure and one far better used than giving it to the wealthy that will not do anything—or, if it does, very and better off in our society. little indeed—to improve the level of national savings in Australia. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) (10.04 a.m.)—The Greens (WA) will be The budget that has just been brought down supporting Democrat amendments nos. 1 and this month by the government deals with 2 on sheet 973. We support putting a savings national savings and in the debate about rebate cap on this measure. It is still generous, national savings the government trumpets all being on savings and investment incomes of of the time the measures it believes it has between $35,000 and $39,000. It is an issue taken to bring public savings into credit. It of basic equity and I am looking very careful- has done that, and one acknowledges that. ly to see whether the ALP will support this In making that acknowledgment, I do not issue of equity on this occasion. for one whit acknowledge the very specious 3156 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 arguments that the government puts about the unfairness of this measure by admitting on the budgetary position created under Labor. That day after the 1997-98 budget that he would is the most specious, big lie approach to not be claiming the rebate. We were a bit political posturing that I have encountered in surprised and taken aback when he said that. recent years, and I do not accept that. But, He was made to look a bit of a goose when having drawn a line around that qualification, the Australian Taxation Office advised that nonetheless the budget is back in surplus and such a change to the legislation to allow the public savings are therefore returned to Prime Minister to opt out of claiming the surplus. rebate would cost about $1 million, and that If you look at the budget papers you will he could not opt out. So even the government see that aggregate national savings are falling, is uncomfortable with this measure. and that is a serious economic problem for The most telling and damning part of the Australia. Private citizens in this country do equity argument is that high wealth individu- not save and their propensity to save is als will be the beneficiaries. People like declining, which means that we do not gener- Senator Parer, who has profited from tax ate the level of national savings necessary to minimisation, will be the beneficiaries. This make Australian owned investments in our is a spectacle of a government making the development as a country. We borrow from rich wealthier at the cost of ordinary taxpay- abroad, from foreigners, to help develop our ers. That is, in summary, what the equity nation. We invite foreign investment to make argument is about. I wish I could vote for this up the shortfall that we ourselves are unable amendment. It is a central budgetary measure. to meet because we do not generate a suffi- On that basis, we recognise that the govern- cient level of national savings. ment has some rights in this field and that its This measure was trumpeted as a means of basic budgetary measures should be support- lifting national savings. The problem with it ed. So we will vote for the amending bill and is that no-one believes it will. Even those not for the Democrats’ amendments. generous economic commentators who speak on this point—generous to the government’s Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) point of view—say that, if it does lift savings, (10.12 a.m.)—I must say, I am a little sur- it will be only very little. prised. Senator Cook knows that I hold both The costs, which have been pointed out to him and his arguments in high regard. I have the chamber by the Democrats, are set out in had a great deal of experience with him and the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill explana- as a consequence I have developed that tory memorandum. As to the financial impact, regard. But in this instance I am surprised the measure will cost revenue $350 million in because the Labor Party has had a position the financial year 1998-99, $1.37 billion in where it has voted against a wide range of the financial year 1999-2000 and over $2 major budget items. I recall the debate after billion in the financial year 2000-01. So at the the 1996 budget. cost of $350 million, $1.3 billion—nearly I supported you when you voted against the $1.4 billion—and $2 billion to the taxpayer R&D tax concession, the superannuation high the government under this measure will be income earners surcharge and changes to trying to provide an incentive for people to HECS, all of which were major budget items. save money by giving them a tax rebate, in I would think that the Treasurer (Mr Reith) is effect. The conditions for that tax rebate are absolutely joyful listening to you over there such that really only the wealthy will qualify. because I think you have just given him the So I have considerable sympathy for and have GST. Surely if the GST comes through as a argued the equity point of view myself strong- budget measure you will then be obliged on ly. That is the overriding position of the your principle to support it. I am starting to Australian Labor Party. get into an intellectual and political morass It has to be said that the Prime Minister here which I cannot find my way out of. I (Mr Howard) himself has recognised the would have thought it was the job of an Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3157 opposition to oppose bad policy and to sup- In that particular instance, you can see a port good policy. pattern; a higher and higher percentage of If I can offer you a lifeline, Senator Cook, people in Australian society in dissavings, in one of the things which perhaps you as the debt: bankcard debt, debt to their parents, Deputy Opposition Leader could do would be debt to their friends. What are the options to assure the Senate and the people of Aus- when the debt lines close up if impositions tralia that if you return to government you occur and people are in desperate straits? will introduce means testing of this measure There is the old adage, if you have to eat, if and change the law as soon as you can to you have to pay the rent and so on, you have restore equity—and not give away a billion three options: beg, borrow or steal. Then we dollars in what may be loosely described as are going to have a law and order election, of a rort for the wealthy and better off, who do course. not really need it and who do not deserve it The issues are about how Australians are in this instance. saving and what proportion of Australians are Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) saving what. When we have a situation where (10.14 a.m.)—Perhaps while Senator Cook is more and more Australians are either on the thinking of his well rounded response, which margin or in dissavings—that is, they are in will set us in train for knowing what the debt—we are going to see, with that blind or opposition is likely to do in the future, let very tunnel vision, more and more goodies, alone now, I would like to give a broad benefits or kickbacks being given to the rich picture of what we are dealing with when we in our society to get more of their money into are looking for extra national savings. Keep savings. I do not know whether that is inter- in mind that we have a large number of nationally competitive savings, I would have unemployed people. The government is not thought that is internationally uncompetitive making it any easier for unemployed people. savings. The indications are that the government wants to remove the disincentive to be employed. So The reason we have got to this position is basically it is going to be tighter and tighter we have concentrated so much on being for the unemployed, especially when we have internationally competitive and have forgotten a higher percentage of working poor. about what is happening with the rest of our economy, with the rest of our society. The Obviously, the classic economic theory is ability of people to purchase goods and that if we want to look throughout society to services from local markets has been forgotten see what is available for national savings, we altogether. We have concentrated so much on need to have an idea what people are earning, being internationally competitive but it is only how many people are earning what, and what the rich that are getting rich enough to be their costs of living are compared with what able to put any substantial amount of money they are earning—and see whether they have into savings. I think we have got to address the capacity to save. We have just had the that instead of continuing down this path of debate on the social security youth allowance continually throwing the rest of taxpayers’ and the government and the opposition got money at the very richest in Australia to try together and said that people on social securi- to get them to save their money. ty measures who are on student assistance cannot actually save $3,000 at the beginning Senator COOK (Western Australia— of their year in order to be able to survive the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the year. We are talking about a wide range of Senate) (10.17 a.m.)—I have been asked to people who are not able to—in fact are explain the Labor Party’s position on two legislated against—actually have any savings. things, given my earlier remarks. The first is It is an irony, isn’t it, to be legislated against the GST and the second is what we will do— having any savings backup even to the point should the election that everyone is speculat- of $3,000 at the beginning of the university ing now will be in August result in a Labor year. victory and we are in government—about 3158 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 amending this measure to provide greater know what all of those issues are?’ and so equity. Let me answer both those questions. forth. He is confident of his memory, he said. The issue of the GST has been raised by This is cloak and dagger stuff. This is some- the Australian Democrats because, on the thing that Australian taxpayers are paying for amendment now put by them to the savings but they are not told about and it is operating rebate, we are saying that was a centrepiece on the instruction that the only option it can of the budget by the present government in look at is a GST option. It is the only one. It 1997-98 and, as a centrepiece of a budget cannot look at a non-GST tax structure; it can measure, we are not going to oppose it. The look only at GST options. GST, however, is in a different category: it is In 1985 when we were in government we quite distinct, it is clear and reasonable that undertook reform of the taxation system. We it is a different category. published a major report which we put out This government is fond of saying the there for public debate. It had a number of Australian tax system is broken down and options in it. The debate raged far and wide needs wholesale review. We say the Austral- in this nation evaluating the options and it ian tax system from time to time needs culminated in the national tax summit in routine maintenance to keep itself focused on which all of the interest groups in Australia the principal issues of simplicity, equity and came forward, put a viewpoint and, on the transparency and, because there is a major basis of that viewpoint, we exercised tax industry out there about tax avoidance, which reform. That is what we think is the appropri- constantly tries to find loopholes through any ate course for a government to take on an system, a prudent government maintains issue as fundamental to Australia’s well-being scrutiny to find where those loopholes have as taxation. been opened up and close them down as Contrast that with this secretive manoeuvre quickly as possible. by the government in which nothing is in the We do not think the wholesale change to public domain for scrutiny or evaluation. The the taxation system is necessary. We do think inspired reports are now saying that the maintenance is necessary and, at some points Treasurer may bring down his tax package of the system, renovation of the system is around 28 June. The newsletter Inside Can- necessary. Kim Beazley said on the weekend berra reports that major accounting houses in broad outline that the structure of what we have been cued by the government to be are looking at is a form of negative income ready for a tax lockup—that is, to have tax to overcome positions in which people are confidential access to the tax papers in ad- caught in poverty traps—if they earn more vance of a government announcement on or money they lose a level of entitlements and, around 28 June this year. therefore, there is an in-built disincentive in Everyone says that there is very likely to be the system to actually find work for a catego- an election in August. What we are looking ry of Australians. That is something that at is an ambush of Australia by the govern- ought to be changed. ment with a complex series of tax changes. It We have a very firm position on this tax will tell everyone it is for their benefit but not debate. The government, however—and it is give them the chance to read the fine print a matter now of notorious record—has got a and come to an understanding about what the secret tax committee in the Department of the options are for them. It will present a singular Treasury which keeps no minutes, publishes option—the GST option, in whatever form— no reports, makes no explanation to this which is not an option at all. It will not parliament through the normal forms of canvass any other alternatives, so people will estimates and is operating in secret. The not be able to compare that option with a chairman of it said to an estimates committee non-GST tax structure or some other version that there are no records, he keeps them all in of the tax structure. It will be a singular his head. We asked the reasonable question, option. We do not think that is democratic ‘In a complex issue like tax, how do you government; that is electoral ambush. We do Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3159 not think this is giving the taxpayer of Aus- The second question put to me is: what will tralia a fair shake or a chance to understand we do about this particular item of legislation, what is being proposed. and will we amend it to introduce greater equity? That question invites me to say what This will be sold with all the glitter and PR our policy will be in the whole area of tax- publicity that the government can muster. The ation. I know it is not put as some subtle way reports today are that the government has put of creeping into the Labor Party policy out a contract for public relations companies machine and invoking an answer about an to bid for to market its tax package. This is important detail of policy ahead of time. I going to be bells, whistles and Hollywood know it is put in the context of, ‘You have glitter to get into your minds a few headline said this today. What will you do when you points without knowing what the fine print is come to government?’ That is an honest about. Our position is that if we are not question. successful at the election we will oppose a GST in the Senate, and I said that in this I have to say that we will announce our place on the Thursday after the budget came policies in detail at the opportune time. We down, in response to the budget. That is have started to unveil some of those tax bottom-line clear. There is no doubt where the policies now, and I refer to what the Leader Labor Party stands. That is where we stand. of the Opposition in the House of Repre- sentatives, Kim Beazley, said on the weekend If the government is not prepared to take about a negative income tax. It is no disre- the Australian people into its confidence, give spect to the Australian Democrats that I will them a chance to look at the details of the not answer that question in technicolour fine print and understand what it means to cinemascope on the wide screen right now. them and then run an election; and if we are But what I will say is that we think this not successful in the election, we will oppose measure is inequitable. It will cost taxpayers a GST in the Senate. I think the better option in the year 2000 over $2 billion and it will is that we win the election so that it does not benefit the wealthy, not the poor. We do not arise in the first place. That is far and away think that is equity and whether we amend the better option. this law or repeal it in its entirety is a matter To those pundits who have said that this is for our policy. a defeatist approach by the Australian Labor I cannot go into exactly what we will do, Party, I say this: when we said earlier that we but I cannot emphasise strongly enough that would support it because the government we consider that this does not, firstly, do what would have a mandate, we assumed the it says it will do and improve national savings government would do the right thing and overall for the nation. We are bolstered in that disclose what its intentions were. That was point of view because it is one that economic not defeatist. When we say we oppose it, that commentators, independent of our party, also becomes defeatist. The only constant thing is hold with considerable unanimity across the that we are defeated in both propositions. Of board. It is not us making a political point; it course the intention of the Labor Party is win is objectively true. This scheme will not the next election, and I think we have a very significantly, if at all, increase national sav- good chance of doing that. ings. Secondly, there is a consensus of view So, to the first question put to me in this that it does benefit the wealthy at the expense debate—where do we stand on the GST?— of the ordinary taxpayer. Those two policy that is where we stand and that is why we principles are foremost in our mind, but I stand there. There has to be a process of cannot go into the detail of what we will do. scrutiny, democratic evaluation and real I trust that is an explanation in the circum- choice by electors, not tax change by ambush stances that is understood and appreciated by and, I might say, change which will introduce the Australian Democrats. a regressive tax—a tax that imposes on the Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant rich and the poor the same charge. Treasurer) (10.29 a.m.)—I just wish to briefly 3160 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 respond. Quite a wide ranging debate has Murray, in responding, that we now have ensued and I do not want to tackle the large moved a long way from your amendments. range of issues that Senator Cook has just put on the table. They are debates for another day Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) and let me assure you that we will join those (10.32 a.m.)—Thank you, Madam Temporary with great vigour. Chairman. I appreciate your direction. I will go to the first question first. It directly relates The truth of the matter is that the bulk of to our amendments. We would, indeed, the savings rebate will flow to lower and support any attempt to means test the savings middle income people. We have had a very rebate made by you if you enter government. extensive discussion on that, and it seems to Even if you decide not to raise the issue me that no matter how often we put the again, we might well raise it when we have figures out it does not make any impact on the opportunity because we think it will give the other side. These are the estimates that we you another billion dollars which you can put have received, and others may not accept into legal aid, health, education and some of them, but no alternatives have been put out to the jobs employment policies which you had show where we are wrong. As I said, this is and which were sacrificed by government— a fair and equitable measure and it provides wrongly so, we believe. an incentive to save. I think it will inevitably have the effect of encouraging private saving The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Can and that is what the government has stated. you direct your comments through the chair, We will, therefore, not be supporting the Senator Murray? amendments moved by the Democrats. Senator MURRAY—Sorry, Madam Tem- porary Chairman. My apologies. Through the Senator COOK (Western Australia— chair, we would respond on that basis. We Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the think the government’s savings rebate inten- Senate) (10.30 a.m.)—Madam Temporary tion is right, but we think the government’s Chairman, we are reaching the stage where savings intention practice is mistaken. So, yes, you will be putting the question, and that is we will support you in that and we would a reasonable and appropriate course. But I indeed move it of our own account. wonder if, through you, Madam Temporary Chairman, I can ask the Democrats a ques- The second question—as you would expect tion, since they asked me a question relating from a seasoned political practitioner— to the amendments that they moved to the perverted my question. When I asked Labor government’s bill. Their question to me was: the question about a GST, I was in fact will you amend the government amendment responding to their reason for not supporting should you become the government after the our amendments despite philosophically being next election? My question to them is: will in tune with them. The reason they gave is you support us if we were to? Since the that it is a substantial budget policy measure. Democrats asked where Labor stands on the It is perfectly possible—in fact, I think it GST, and I answered that, I ask the Demo- would be automatic—that, if the coalition get crats: where do you stand on the GST? Will back into government, they will introduce the you support one if we are not successful at GST as a budget policy measure. Therefore, the next election and if there is such a propo- logically, what you said would require you to sal before the Senate? support it. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- You have given the reasons that you would tor Patterson)—Senator Cook, I know that take a different view. Our approach through- that question was asked by the Democrats and out the tax reform package discussion has that you answered it, but we are straying a been that, until a tax reform package as a long way—and I have been very tolerate— whole is presented to us, we are inclined to from the topic of the amendments under view everything with an open mind, and that debate. I draw to your attention, Senator is how we will view it. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3161

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The Second Reading question is that amendment Nos. 1 and 2 Debate resumed from 19 November 1997, moved by Senator Murray be agreed to. on motion by Senator Minchin: Question put. That these bills be now read a second time. The committee divided. [10.37 a.m.] (Quorum formed) (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) Ayes ...... 9 Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) (10.44 a.m.)—On behalf of the opposition I Noes ...... 39 —— rise to speak on the national transmission Majority ...... 30 network legislation and to outline our very —— strong opposition to this legislation, which is AYES the privatisation of the national transmission Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. network in Australia. We have had a reason- Bourne, V.* Brown, B. able opportunity through the Senate legislative Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. committee process to hear the evidence from Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. the government to justify why this agency Woodley, J. should be privatised. In the time given there NOES was a lot of evidence received. Some of it, Bishop, M. Boswell, R. L. D. you might say, was from the usual suspects in Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. favour of privatisation, as you would expect, Campbell, G. Carr, K. Chapman, H. G. P. Collins, J. M. A. while others expressed concern about it. The Conroy, S.* Cook, P. F. S. main concern that a lot of people raised was Coonan, H. Cooney, B. the lack of information provided by the Crane, W. Crowley, R. A. government as to why the agency should be Denman, K. J. Eggleston, A. privatised and what the advantage was to the Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. national interest in its privatisation. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. Kemp, R. The government itself could not answer Knowles, S. C. Lundy, K. those concerns other than, in our view, by Macdonald, I. Mackay, S. stating an ideological position that it was a McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. Neal, B. J. good idea to privatise for the sake of privatis- O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. ing. The government mentioned that when the Patterson, K. C. L. Reid, M. E. agency was sold, the money would go to pay Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. off public debt. When we asked for any idea Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. of what the agency would bring when it was West, S. M. privatised, the government’s Office of Asset * denotes teller Sales said, ‘Those are estimates we do not Question so resolved in the negative. want to divulge because it could effect the Bill, as amended, agreed to. price we receive.’ But, even when asked for a broad range of figures, they still would not Bill reported with amendments; report give them to us. We even offered to have in adopted. camera briefings of the committee to find out Third Reading that information. Again, that was not forth- coming. Bill (on motion by Senator Kemp) read a third time. Other people have speculated that the agency may bring $200 million, $180 million NATIONAL TRANSMISSION or $250 million. That is not a large amount of NETWORK SALE BILL 1997 money, and its contribution to paying off public debt will be minuscule indeed. The NATIONAL TRANSMISSION savings on the interest at the present bond NETWORK SALE (CONSEQUENTIAL rate of about six per cent would be only a few AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 million dollars at the very most. Compare that 3162 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 to maintaining in public ownership what is a changed—that something should be done national asset. The community, through about it. There was no justification given in various governments of the day, including the hearings by the government that the previous coalition governments and Labor National Transmission Agency was inefficient governments, has invested many hundreds of and not performing. In fact, the evidence was millions of dollars to build a national network to the contrary. Even Mr Hutchinson from the right across Australia with something like Office of Asset Sales agreed—and the govern- 1,500 transmitters and translators available for ment, DoCA and the finance department our national broadcasters—the ABC and the agreed—that there had been a substantial SBS—and, where appropriate, for commercial improvement in efficiency in the National broadcasting services and community broad- Transmission Agency since the early 1990s, casting services. since it was given a new structure and admin- This is a national infrastructure. The istrative arrangements under legislation government should be assisting in the provi- introduced by the previous Labor government. sion of services to all the community on an Those estimates are in the report. It is not equitable basis. A commercial sector would disputed that there was a 40 per cent improve- never have built a national transmission ment in the efficiency and the productivity of agency with a national infrastructure, provid- this agency in public ownership. ing a service to all Australians wherever they If any organisation, public or private, had live. You would have got them building a 40 per cent improvement in half a decade transmitters in each of the capital cities, but in the delivery of service, you would give it you would not have got them building trans- a big tick. But why would you want to sell it? mitters and translators out in the rural and The only reason is that this government sees regional areas of Australia. Both govern- it as an ideological position that they want to ments—Labor and Liberal—have, in the past, support. I think it is also part of their view made that contribution. that selling the National Transmission Agency Yet, for some reason, out of the blue, this also justifies the ideological position that they government, without justification, has decided took over the major privatisation issue of to privatise. There is no demand in the com- Telstra. munity that this agency should be sold off. It It is no surprise that the Labor members of is not being sold off because it was not the committee—Senator Lundy and I—have performing or there was a deficiency in its put in a minority report which opposes performance, or because the Australian public privatisation. I also note that the minority said, ‘The National Transmission Agency is report of Senator Lyn Allison of the Demo- useless; let’s get rid of it.’ No arguments like crats is along similar lines to the Labor that came from anywhere. One might say, Party’s submission in that it opposes the ‘Well, a lot of people in Australia may not be privatisation. Again, we and the Democrats aware that there even is a National Transmis- have a similar view. sion Agency in existence.’ I think many I want deal with three or four of the major people probably believe that the transmitters issues from our minority report that did come and translators that the ABC and SBS use are forward in the hearing, even though the actually owned by the ABC and SBS and do hearing was short. Quite rightly, we did not not understand that there is a separate, dedi- object to this matter going to a legislative cated, corporatised agency providing that committee. First of all, I want to deal with the service. community service obligation. It is clear from But, nevertheless, even if they did believe this legislation that it is a big ask for the that the ABC and SBS owned the transmitters Australian people to believe that the com- and they were not performing properly, there munity service obligations in this proposal are would still be issues raised at the political going to be substantive enough to guarantee level, at the parliamentary level, that this that in the future the National Transmission service was not up to scratch and ought to be Agency, or whoever buys it, will provide Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3163 services, particularly to non-metropolitan on the submission from the Friends of the Australia. Service may be provided for five ABC. I know this government thinks that the years while the ABC and SBS have to con- Friends of the ABC is a bunch of left-wing tinue to use the privatised National Transmis- radicals whose aim is to carry out a political sion Agency. But after that five years is up, campaign against this government. The it is really buying a very big pig in the poke Friends of the ABC is actually one of the in terms of what is going to happen to the most moderate organisations of people I have provision of these services in regional Aus- met. They are overwhelmingly Liberal voters. tralia. When you meet the Friends of the ABC you What has been occurring in the adminis- are not meeting a left-wing branch of the tration of the National Transmission Agency Labor Party; you are meeting upper middle- is a natural and proper cross-subsidisation. class, middle-aged woman and men— The administration costs of the provision of overwhelmingly women—who are concerned services to the regional areas of Australia has about maintaining the ABC. The Friends of in effect been subsidised by having a national the ABC are not what this government might agency. There is no doubt that a private choose to call left-wing suspects, et cetera. operator will start getting into full cost recov- They are overwhelmingly supporters of the ery, and that means that in the bush, after the coalition and have been historically for a long five years are up, operators, whether it is the time. ABC or the SBS, will start being charged They raised their concern on the national differently. The ABC and the SBS could then interest that in the long run these facilities say, ‘Well, we are off. We are not going to may well be fully controlled by some foreign have a contract with you mob. We will go interest. Having your national transmission and maybe provide our own transmitter or do facilities run by somebody from another a deal with somebody else.’ What that then country is an issue. You do not want to be means is that a national infrastructure is xenophobic about it, but it is an issue that in shredded or broken up into different parts, the national interest this ought to be con- which means a different level of service to trolled by Australians, because it is a national different parts of Australia. That is the logical structure of communication across the nation. conclusion of selling the National Transmis- It is the fabric which keeps the nation to- sion Agency. gether. Providing this communication, we can We do not believe the legislation in any ensure that a government announcement in a way guarantees appropriate community time of emergency is distributed right across service obligations. We do not believe that Australia. Again, the government might say, there is a mechanism in this legislation to ‘Under the Defence Act we can in times of ensure that the higher cost of providing a emergency call on those powers to get our transmission facility in the rural and regional message across,’ and so on. But I think this areas of Australia is adequately dealt with. goes wider on a day-to-day basis. This is an The minister will get up and proclaim that it instrumentality which does provide, under is and will say, ‘Trust us. It will be okay in Australian ownership, an infrastructure that is the future.’ People in regional Australia no important to all Australians. longer take those promises about the provi- I now come to an area where I think the sion of services—the promise of ‘Trust us. government is really asking us to buy the The service will stay the same’—from any very biggest pig in a poke. It is the so-called government. They have seen too many exam- compact between the government and the ples, both in the public and the private sector, ABC and SBS regarding future funding for that services to regional and rural Australia transmission. When this bill was being dis- are the first to suffer when you put in full cussed before the committee, we asked the cost recovery. government, ‘Have you reached agreement I also want to point out some other issues with the ABC and SBS on how much money of national interest. In our report we comment you will provide to them over the next five 3164 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 years to pay for the transmission costs when his advisers from the department, ‘Have we you are forcing the ABC and SBS to buy reached agreement with the ABC and SBS? those services from a privatised national Has there been an announcement made? If transmission agency?’ The government could there has been agreement reached, why has it not give us any information that an agreement not been made public before the second had been reached. When we asked the ABC reading stage of this bill has taken place?’ If and SBS, when they turned up, still all we it has been made public and I have missed it, could get was, ‘Well, discussions are proceed- I apologise, but I do not think it has been ing.’ If the government cannot, here in the reached. second reading debate or in the committee Perhaps I am being too harsh on Senator stage, outline to the Senate what is the actual Alston. Perhaps he has gone to the ABC financial commitment that the government has board this morning to say, ‘By the way, I can given for the next five years to the ABC and tell you that this is what we have reached SBS to cover the costs of transmission, it agreement on and I’m signing off with you really will be an awful outcome. Once the here today. We are going to provide you with agency is sold and the ABC and SBS have an appropriate amount of money for the trans- not got a contractual arrangement locked mission costs of the ABC and SBS.’ I have to away that the money will be made available, say, in view of this minister’s track record, the government can do what it likes to the that that is a very big ask indeed. ABC and SBS and can cut the transmission funding. The next issue, about why this agency should not be privatised, is: irrespective of the Normally you might not be too worried that running costs of the National Transmission a government in good faith and goodwill will Agency that the ABC and SBS have to pay, reach an agreement, but you would not trust what money is available for the digitisation the this government as far as you could throw program? We in the opposition believe you it in its dealings with the ABC. This very cannot divorce the cost of the digitisation pro- morning the minister for communications, gram now that it has been put on the table by Senator Alston, is not here debating this bill. the government in another bill on the digital Guess where he is? He has gone up to the program for introducing digital television and ABC board meeting in Sydney to beat them digital radio to Australia. In the budget, this around the head over allegations of bias mean-spirited, mealy-mouthed government against the coalition and to demand changes promised the ABC $20 million and then said, within the ABC on programming to overcome ‘If you are good and if we like what you do the minister’s so-called concern on bias. The in your programming, we may give you some minister is there abusing the ABC this morn- more.’ ing, not down here explaining to us how much money has been committed by the It is blatant blackmail by this government government to the ABC and SBS to pay for to intimidate the ABC as we lead up to the the transmission costs. next election. Never before has a coalition government acted in such a disgraceful way At the very least, the government should as this minister has, egged on by the Prime have the ethics and the morality to come in Minister (Mr Howard) and the Treasurer (Mr here and say, ‘Yes, we have reached agree- Costello). It is blackmail of the ABC to say, ment with the ABC and SBS. We are going ‘We will give you $20 million now. Sell all to provide them with $120 million per annum your other property and introduce full for X number of years,’ or whatever the outsourcing of programming, and then we figure is; and the same for the SBS. It has may give you some more money for the now been several months since this bill was digitalisation of the ABC for its equipment.’ before the committee. As far as I am aware— We all know that, early next century, if the I stand to be corrected—no agreement has ABC’s equipment is not digitalised it will go been reached. I trust Senator Brownhill, the out of existence as a national broadcaster. parliamentary secretary at the table, and I ask That is exactly what this minister and this Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3165

Prime Minister want to happen to the ABC— Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) to destroy it as a broad based national broad- (11.04 a.m.)—As we have heard, the purpose caster, independent of government, providing of the legislation that is now before us is to factual and broad ranging views to the Aus- provide for the sale of the national transmis- tralian people. sion network. The Democrats do not support It is ironic that, today, this bill for the the sale of essential government infrastructure privatisation of the National Transmission unless it is proved to be in the public interest. Agency and its major impact on the ABC are We are not convinced that this is the case being debated when the minister himself is at with the national transmission network, the ABC board, up there abusing them, especially as it stands at the moment. accusing them of bias— I am sure government members will remem- Senator Brownhill—Mr Acting Deputy ber—certainly I remember and I know Sena- President, I raise a point of order. To make tor Schacht will remember—what was an- accusations about people doing things when nounced in the Better Communications policy the opposition do not even have a clue what document, which came out just before the last is happening up there at the moment is election. It stated that the coalition would absolutely out of order. increase the national broadcaster’s responsi- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT bility for the transmission of their programs. (Senator Murphy)—There is no point of On page 7 of the document, the government order. states: Senator SCHACHT—I say to the parlia- . . . the Coalition sees no valid reason why the mentary secretary, Senator Brownhill, that we national broadcasters should not have control over their transmission facilities. After all it is the know the minister is up there accusing them national broadcasters who are criticised whenever of bias because that is what he said on the their sub-standard transmission quality or break- public record. He said it in this place in the downs occur. . . Accordingly, and in line with an last two weeks. He said himself, on the public increasing trend around the world, the Coalition record, that the ABC is biased in the covering will fund the ABC directly for its transmission of a number of national issues and, ‘We don’t costs on the strict condition that national coverage and existing service commitments to rural and like your coverage.’ He accused the ABC of remote areas are continued. bias first, then wrote a letter to the chief executive of the ABC demanding a response How on earth the ABC is able to keep up to his allegations of bias. He should have at proper transmission to rural and remote areas least written first if he had concerns and, with no money to do it, I do not know. Of before he made the allegations and charges course, that is what is happening at the and public abuse, then made some comment. moment. Senator Boswell will tell you— He did it round the other way. Senator Boswell has—that there is a real We know what he is there for. He said it problem with the ABC’s transmission in the himself. He is going to raise these issues of bush. That is an absolute, direct result of a what he sees as bias. It is intimidation and lack of funding to the ABC. I hope everybody this sale of the National Transmission Agency listening in rural and remote areas realises is another way in which this government is that. I am sure they do. The coalition’s policy aiming to destroy the ABC as a national also commits to the same outcome for SBS. broadcaster in this country. That is why, That is on page 9 of their policy. Unfortu- above all else, we will never vote for the sale nately, though, that is where the good policy of the National Transmission Agency. We stops. believe it is a very important national infra- The national broadcasters, the ABC and structure that all Australians would support. SBS, have sought control over their transmis- I commend to the Senate the opposition’s sion facilities for a very long time. But the minority report and hope that the Senate has Democrats do not believe that the way to the good sense to defeat this bill in the achieve that outcome is for the government to second reading. (Time expired) sell off the transmission facility, the national 3166 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 transmission network. We would much rather At the very least the Democrats believe see the national broadcasters properly funded that, if the bill passes the second reading for the costs of their transmission facilities, stage in the Senate and the sale proceeds, the not as a separate line item in the budget but government should use the funds to pay for directly and as part of their total funding the digitisation of the ABC, SBS and some appropriation. That way, the ABC and SBS community broadcasters. And if they cannot would be able to enter into direct commercial find the $1.6 million elsewhere, then they can relationships with a number of transmission use some of the funds to immediately reopen service providers, including the NTN, com- the Cox Peninsula shortwave transmission mercial providers and others. That may even facility. have the effect of challenging the way the In the latest budget, the government has National Transmission Agency, which oper- costed the proceeds of the national transmis- ates that network, operates. sion network into forward estimates. That is The national broadcasters and the National a courageous move on their part. In its sub- Transmission Agency have not always had a mission to the inquiry into this sale bill, the very convivial relationship. That is not the Department of Communications and the Arts fault of either of those organisations but the stated that the proceeds would pay for the effect has been that, over a considerable cost of the ABC and SBS contracts for trans- period of time, neither the ABC nor SBS has mission; the cost of funding providers of developed a particularly sound working Radio for the Print Handicapped services and relationship with the NTA, and that has commercial broadcasting licensees in declared negatively affected all of them. remote areas for increase in transmission costs resulting from commercial charging— But that problem should not be resolved by selling off one arm of the government’s very noble; discretionary funding to the ABC business to the private sector. Time and time and SBS for minor transmission enhance- again, successive governments have laid claim ments; and the costs of planning and adminis- to the fact that transferring the operational tering transmission services by ABC and SBS. capacity of a government agency to the Since the government would have had to fund private sector will produce the scope for these programs regardless of the sale of the greater client focus and responsiveness which NTN, why is the department apparently flows from commercial practice, and of double counting those proceeds? course that is just not the case. The Demo- The sale does not result in the government crats reject the notion—and this is something suddenly receiving the money it requires to that we hear all the time from this govern- fund these transmission services. The govern- ment—that everything in the public sector is ment simply wants to eliminate, as far as inherently bad and inefficient and everything possible, its activities in the direct provision in the private sector is inherently efficient and of telecommunications infrastructure, and it is cost effective. It is Animal Farm: four legs slowly going about doing just that. That is are good and two legs are bad. why we recommend that any proceeds be Selling the transmission facilities does not used to fund national broadcasters in their necessarily set the scene, as the government transition to digital technology, and our claims, for a greater degree of competition in amendments reflect this. We also make the transmission services market. The national provision for a proportion of the funds to be transmission network currently operates as a used by the community broadcasting sector’s sort of monopoly, with the national broadcast- transition into the digital environment. ers the only guaranteed customers. Competi- As Senator Schacht told us just a moment tion is only likely to take place between the ago, the ABC is being given $20.8 million. National Transmission Agency and a commer- That sounds like a lot of money, but it is cial provider, and then only on the eastern minuscule. If you talk to the commercial seaboard or other coastal regions of Australia. broadcasters, they believe they needs hun- That is where the population is. dreds of millions of dollars to change over Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3167 into digital processes—hundreds of millions. to the private sector. Too much remains This government is ‘generously’ allowing the unclear and undetermined, particularly after ABC $20.8 million to try to change over that five years. with. I have spoken to the minister about this The national broadcasters are of the view and he tells me that it is really only part one that the sale should proceed. That is not and, depending what happens, then maybe because they are of the view that the they will get part two as well, and goodness privatisation of the network is a good idea— knows what part two will be—$½ million, $1 they have no view on that—but because the million. It will not be anything like the contracts and the compacts have enabled the hundreds of millions of dollars that they national broadcasters to negotiate a more need—or that the commercial broadcasters tell suitable arrangement for the transmission of us that they need. their television and radio services to Austral- The national transmission network’s 550 ians than is currently the case. The govern- transmission facilities are used to carry televi- ment, in line with their election commitment, sion and radio signals for the national broad- should have enabled the national broadcasters casters. Some commercial and community to undertake contractual arrangements with stations access the national transmission service providers regardless of the sale of the network, which also provides the transmission network. If the government were truly serious for emergency broadcasters and for Radio for about competition, it would have found other the Print Handicapped. Telstra, Optus, ways to introduce it, not merely by selling a Vodaphone and paging and data services also monopoly provider to the private sector. This use the NTN. in itself does not guarantee a competitive outcome. In his second reading speech, the minister stated that the government recognised the The compact with the government and the importance of safeguarding important broad- contracts with the future owner or owners, the casting policy objectives, including the main- ABC and SBS believe, will provide adequate tenance of existing ABC and SBS coverage protection for both broadcasters and the and service quality. We were pleased to hear viewing and listening public. In particular, the this. But we do not think that the community contract with the future owner will ensure that service obligations contained in the bill coverage and service levels for the current provide adequate access to certain broadcast- services are maintained. While the national ers. We have the community sector in mind broadcasters should not be doubted—as I am here particularly. sure they have been really cautious in their approach to this whole situation and, of The emergence of digital broadcasting will course, they can be trusted—I sincerely hope pose special and significant broadcasting their predicted outcome is right. challenges, some of which cannot yet be determined, and we believe the bill should at The contracts and the compacts will be least try to take some of these into consider- signed by all parties for an initial five-year ation. Naturally, emergency service operators, period and will be subject to renegotiation for Radio for the Print Handicapped and govern- a period of up to 14 years in total. Those ment and non-profit self-help re-transmission measures are designed to protect the broad- broadcasters deserve special attention, and we casters against higher possible costs from the are pleased that the bill recognises that. post-sale arrangements. We hope that is the Commercial broadcasting licensees in de- case, but being subject to the funding whims clared remote areas are also defined as nomi- of this government in particular, nothing can nated customers in the bill, and they should be certain. receive guaranteed access to sites and trans- The Democrats also have concerns about mission towers. But the bill cannot guarantee the sale process itself. During the committee that these services will continue to receive process, the Office of Asset Sales and Infor- special treatment after the initial five-year mation Technology Outsourcing was not able contract period of transition from the public to provide details of the anticipated sale price 3168 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 or details about the intended purchasers. The broadcasters, the ABC and the SBS, achieve Democrats are concerned about a possible control of their transmission facilities from conflict of interest if the owner of the network means other than the sale of a government is a commercial broadcaster. We believe that asset, especially one which provides an the new owners ought to be specialist trans- essential service. We also reject the mission providers, not broadcasters. government’s notion that everything in the Channels 7, 9 and 10 are all part of the private sector is efficient and the public sector consortiums who have bid for the network. is inherently inefficient and uncompetitive. With all the uncertainty underpinning the The government could have made a number future of broadcasting as one of the reasons of policy decisions which would have given the government wants to back out of transmis- the national broadcasters control of their sion service provision, it appears that com- transmission facilities, it would have given mercial broadcasters understand the import- them secured funding for broadcasting and for ance of owning national broadcasting trans- their digital conversion, but that is not what mission infrastructure at this crucial time they have done. much more than the government does. In response, the Democrats have formulated We would certainly hope that, in the event a key amendment to the bill which will see of transmission failure, the commercial inter- the proceeds of the sale given to the national ests would not override the public interest and broadcasters in order that some of the infra- that all broadcasting services would be afford- structure development funding they require ed equal importance. Transmission cannot be can be secured. Securing funding for the left to the market to decide when the national national broadcasters is far more important broadcasters are dependent on a concept of than the government’s argument about debt the public good. The Democrats note that the retirement or their ideologically position, access regime for the national transmission straight out of Animal Farm, of four legs network is similar to that put in place for the good, two legs bad. telecommunications industry but only for Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New certain nominated customers. The access South Wales)—(11.17 a.m.)—The national regime is designed to guard against any transmission network carries television and imbalance in power which might lead to an radio signals for the ABC, SBS, some com- essential transmission service or facility being mercial radio and TV stations and vital available. community services, such as Radio for the In dealing with the latest Telstra bill, the Print Handicapped. It includes 1,197 radio Democrats have become aware that some and television transmitters used to broadcast provisions in the access regime do not benefit ABC and SBS radio and television services all the players in the marketplace. Those from 547 owned and leased sites and 520 provisions are also designed to ensure that not transmitters belonging to 167 licensed broad- all services are available at monopoly prices. casters. There is also a large number of other To invoke the cliche, there is no level playing transmitters housed for radio communications, field in the telecommunications industry, police and emergency services and other particularly with the strength that Telstra has services. in the marketplace, and it does not look to us Due to expansion over the last few years, as though there will be in the near future. the agency has the potential to reach 18 How can we expect the provision of transmis- million Australians, which significantly sion facilities to guarantee equal access to all includes rural and regional Australia. The broadcasters, particularly the smaller ones? national transmission network is part of the The Democrats have drafted amendments to National Transmission Agency, a separate safeguard access and to provide for a better cost centre operating on a commercial basis community service obligation scheme, assum- outside the department of communications. ing that the bill gets past the second reading From all accounts, the NTA is an efficient stage. We would prefer that the national operation. Over the last few years the NTA Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3169 has undergone extensive changes in its oper- this bill heard from representatives of the ations. Telstra held a monopoly over this SBS, witnesses who stressed that the sale of outsourced operation and maintenance role of the NTN facilities provided them with the the network, but under competitive tendering more flexible delivery opportunity that they it now shares the work with Broadcast Com- had been seeking for a number of years. It is munications Ltd, a division of Television New okay for our national broadcasters to support Zealand Australia Pty Ltd. BCL is the fore- this sale. Access to transmission services for runner to acquire the NTN. A company from them is guaranteed in the bill. Unfortunately, the United States, Castle Group, has also the same cannot be said for our community emerged as another frontrunner in the bid to and self-help broadcasters. The question arises acquire the national transmission network. that, once the NTA is privatised, will the Tendering resulted in savings of $20 million ABC and the SBS have to have an additional in 1995-96. Once again, we see an Australian sum of money to pay the new privatised owned enterprise, which is efficient, about to owner the recurrent cost of running the pass into foreign ownership. It is also worth services? There may also need to be an noting that there was a scoping study done for additional fee to cover the capital cost, the the sale of the NTN by the government, the amount that these companies will tender to results of which have not been released. The purchase the network. Has any research been sale is not in our national interest and will not done into this issue? Does the minister re- lead to any economic or social efficiencies. sponsible have any comment or response? I As Stewart Fist pointed out in his article in eagerly await his reply. the Australian earlier this year, the fee and What guarantees are there for the mainte- budget estimates match, meaning little real nance of existing services and service quality, long-term gain, only short term, which is a particularly after the five-year contractual way of borrowing against budgets of future agreements have run out? There is an option governments who will have to bear the cost. for the bodies involved to renew for two At the public hearing on 5 February 1998, terms of five years on terms and conditions to the Office of Assets Sales and Information be negotiated. How much will our national Technology Outsourcing and the Department broadcasters have to pay for transmission of Communications and the Arts were unable services? Will they be priced out of the to provide specific examples of any efficien- market? Perhaps this is a long-term objective cies that would occur as a result of the sale of of the Howard government: a great way to the NTN. The bill outlines that transmission save money, to starve the ABC of funding by coverage for the ABC and the SBS will be then starving the ABC and the SBS of ready funded by the government for the next five access to government controlled transmission years for the purchasers of the national trans- of services and then forcing them to close, mission network. The onus, therefore, is on saving even more money. the broadcasters to ensure quality of coverage. The ALP dissenting report points out that There will be a direct commercial relationship there is also the problem of a conflict of between the ABC and the SBS and the trans- interest should a commercial broadcaster mission carriers, where previously the link purchase the NTA. Commercial programming was mediated through the government. The and services could be prioritised by the government is ridding itself of responsibility potential commercial broadcaster to the to all Australians, particularly those in rural detriment of ABC and SBS services. Also and regional areas. there are no guarantees that the ABC and the On Monday of this week, representatives of SBS will continue to receive sufficient funds the ABC and the SBS came to my office to to maintain and improve their services. speak to me about this bill, to tell me that Following on from this, the national trans- they support it. I listened to them as they mission network sale has particular import- outlined the reasons for their support. The ance for rural and regional communities, Senate legislation committee which examined where often the ABC and SBS are the main 3170 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 media and information links with the rest of Triple J, was extended into an another eight the world. The NTA annual report for 1995- regional centres. This extended the audience 96 states that almost 90 per cent of the value by 3.7 million, and makes Triple J accessible of transmission assets has been provided to to 80 per cent of the Australian population, or serve regional Australia. That clearly is a big 14.5 million people. The expansion program investment on the part of federal governments of Triple J has been an ongoing one. An- over the last six years. nounced in the 1993-94 federal budget, the In its submission to the Senate legislation then Labor government said that it would committee, the Department of Communica- bring the youth service to 44 regional com- tions and the Arts said that the access regime munities via the NTA transmission network. provisions in the legislation would ensure that Prior to this, Triple J was heard only in the residents of remote areas would continue to six state capitals and Darwin, Newcastle and receive the same level of broadcasting service Canberra. Now people in Geraldton and after the sale of NTN as being received Kalgoorlie, Mackay and Mt Isa, and Broken currently. Yet the bill itself contains no Hill can listen to Triple J, bringing young guarantees regarding maintenance of service people and the young at heart in these rural in regional and rural areas. Also, there is areas into contact with the pre-eminent youth uncertainty over the role that the future owner radio station in the nation. of the NTA will have in the planning of But it is not only our younger generation transmitting facilities in rural and regional that have benefited from the NTA’s expansion Australia. of services and transmission. ABC TV, Radio A great deal of the argument being used National and local radio were brought to new against the full privatisation of Telstra and the audiences by way of 33 transmitters in 1996- potential flogging off of Australia Post can be 97, and SBS was extended to two major used for this sale. Many Australians in rural regions. Radio National now has 235 trans- and regional areas now rely on new technolo- mitters compared with the nine it had in 1981. gies, such as the Internet and e-mail, to keep Even up until January of this year, the net- in touch with the rest of the world. An article work was expanding due to transmission which was published in the Bulletin earlier being extended in Queensland, with further this month outlines the problems that may expansions expected into rural New South arise with the full privatisation of Telstra. Wales and Victoria. Even though only partly privatised now, many Further, another two NTA translator facili- claim that maintenance services have been ties were installed in Tasmania under the reduced already. This serves as a dangerous Tasmania broadcasting development program; example for the transmission of radio and the ABC’s Classic FM was extended to television under a privatised national trans- Warrnambool; and agreement was reached mission network. with a pay TV operator to share NTA facili- The real fear, of course, is that there will ties in Tamworth. While on the subject of not be any expansions or upgrades in our expansion of the network, the NTA also has rural and regional areas, as a private sector a role to play in testing, development and transmission company will be more interested improvements in the quality of service and in metropolitan areas as they will be more transmission, more recently running trials profitable. This will lead to a decline of using the latest technology, digital radio services over time with the possibility that, if broadcasting, in conjunction with the Depart- something goes wrong, if there is an outrage ment of Communications and the Arts. when broadcasting goes down, it will take a The future roll-out of digital terrestrial long time to be fixed or it will not be fixed at television has been delayed due to the pros- all. pect of the sale of the network. Trials were to The last few years have seen an expansion begin last September but have been pushed of the network into regional Australia. In back to June 1998. This is one of the major 1996-97 the ABC’s youth radio network, challenges that will face whatever is left of Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3171 the NTA after the sale. Up until now the down if they are charged market rates. Also, network has had the opportunity to provide the legislation has ignored the needs of the the best transmission services for rural and hearing impaired. regional Australians. Now it will be depend- While the member for Bass talked about ent on the profit motive and money saving, capping, there is no guarantee on how long it rather than on providing services. That must will last. Senators can rest assured that the be a major disappointment for all Australians capping or supplementary funding will expire but particularly for those who live in regional and these other broadcasters—and I am and rural areas. Community organisations, particularly concerned about the community such as community television and radio, need broadcasters—will be left in the lurch. They the current services to be maintained, or they will be abandoned and unable to serve their will be unable to keep on operating if fees for communities because of the Howard govern- transmission are increased. This is a real ment which is intent on selling off everything threat. to the detriment of our rural and regional From the 1995-96 annual report of the communities. NTA, about one-third of the broadcasting The sale of the national transmission net- transmitters on NTA sites are used to broad- work could only have a detrimental impact on cast services other than the ABC or SBS. broadcasting, particularly in rural and regional These are not all community self-help or Australia. Again, the Australian people are emergency services; there are some commer- faced with another sell-off of a national asset cial broadcasters involved. They utilise 522 of that may not be as well-known as another of the 1,719 transmitters across the network. our communications facilitators, Telstra, but Commercial services utilise 418 transmitters; is just as important to those in our rural and community services, 24 transmitters; and self- regional areas. help systems, 61 transmitters. What this This government appears oblivious to indicates is that there are a number of trans- community and social concerns about the missions, other than those of ABC and SBS, importance of the provision and quality of that will be seriously affected by the sale of these services; services that will no doubt be the network. downgraded or lost when the NTA is sold. The Minister for Family Services, the The sell-off of the national transmission Honourable Warwick Smith, assured the network is just another sign of the mantra of parliament that self-help groups, emergency the Howard government. It has major implica- service operators and remote commercial tions for regional and rural Australia, which satellite service providers will be protected by again, despite the rhetoric of the Howard the access regime. Capped charges and con- government, suffer the worst effects of its tracts or supplementary funding will ensure policies. that they are not financially disadvantaged. Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital This is lucky for them, but not for all the Territory) (11.32 a.m.)—As my colleague other community providers and broadcasters. Senator George Campbell has outlined, the Community broadcasters will be the hardest Labor Party will be opposing the National hit. They will be the first ones to feel the Transmission Network Sale Bill 1997 and the pinch when access and transmission fees are associated consequential amendments bill. increased, and the least able to afford to There is a very good reason for us opposing continue broadcasting. these bills, because these measures seek to The ALP dissenting report indicated the sell off what is an essential and crucial part grave concern that the community service of Australia’s telecommunications and com- obligations contained in the bill are more munications infrastructure; infrastructure that limited than those currently in existence. provides metropolitan and regional Australia There are no guarantees on charging and alike with their broadcasting services. These access issues and community broadcasters are bills seek to sell off the assets of the National concerned that they will be forced to close Transmission Agency, assets which are 3172 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 currently owned by all Australians and man- who work there. In this government’s aged for the good of all Australians. rationalist quantifying of government assets The National Transmission Agency can be and the sort of dollar it hopes to reap from its held up as an impressive organisation and is sale, it cannot quantify the corporate know- in fact one of the world’s largest broadcasting ledge and experience of the workers, many of facilities. The assets of the NTA include whom have spent their whole professional 1,197 transmitters used to broadcasting the lives working for this organisation. There are ABC and SBS radio and television services people within the NTA that have seen it right around the Australian continent. Perhaps grow, develop and provide a remarkable that gives us an insight as to why this govern- service that they are very proud of as employ- ment is selling the network. With what they ees of the NTA and the Australian Public are doing to the ABC and SBS, perhaps there Service. They are also very proud of the will not be anything of substance to broadcast actual technical capacities that they have been soon. able to achieve. The relationship between the cutbacks to It is because of the dedication and com- our national broadcasters and to this sale of mitment of the people who work there that we the National Transmission Agency cannot be have seen the NTA go from strength to ignored. This relationship represents a com- strength, with improved and more efficient mitment by this government to an ideological services as well as clocking up some singular- agenda of deconstructing the communications ly identifiable and impressive achievements. services provided through taxpayers’ funds for It is particularly because of the NTA’s excel- the benefit of all Australians. lent performance over recent years that there The NTA facilities also accommodate 503 can be no argument and no justification for transmitters belonging to licensed broadcasters the government to be bringing the bills before and more than 1,000 radio communications this place. There is no argument or justifica- transmitters. Why is it that Australia has such tion from the government as to any inefficien- an impressive and large broadcasting infra- cies. There is no argument from this govern- structure network? It is because, unlike this ment as to why it can justify the sale of the current government, some former adminis- NTA in any form. trations had the foresight, commitment and Evidence of this lack of justification, I understanding as to why it was so critical for believe, can be found in the government’s such a vast country as ours to have a well- refusal to release its scoping study. That defined, efficient and extensive physical scoping study would canvass and seek to infrastructure. quantify the economics behind the structure A network that is managed by government of the NTA and the services it provides, the to ensure that broadcasting services are cost to government and the returns to govern- available to all Australians is what we require. ment in the form of service. How is this We know, because of what has happened with parliament to decide whether the government Telstra and the reduction in services that can is proceeding down the most appropriate route be largely attributed to a change in Telstra’s in maximising the return to the Australian priorities as a public organisation—now a taxpayers and seeking to protect the public partially private organisation—that there is a interest without this information being avail- relationship between that commitment to able? Does the government expect us to do it services to all Australians and ownership. We on trust? also know that the intent, will and philoso- I believe this government has lost the trust phies of the government of the day also of the Australian people with its short-sighted determine the quality through the level of the measures. These short-sighted measures over funding afforded to those services. the last two years and a bit have meant that Out of all of NTA’s assets there is one Australians cannot trust what this government component that is absolutely invaluable and has to say. When that lack of trust is high- cannot be quantified, and that is the people lighted by a refusal to provide basic informa- Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3173 tion to allow proper parliamentary consider- very foundation of arguments supporting the ation of these issues, it reinforces the view. retention of public ownership, not only of our The opposition has concerns with many telecommunications service provider Telstra, areas connected to these bills. I would like to but also of authorities like the National go through some of those specific areas. Transmission Authority. Although the bill guarantees access to the While some members of government have NTA facilities for the ABC and SBS for the made certain claims that the contract with the next five years, there is very little information purchaser of the network would look after as to what will happen after those five years. these matters, this guarantee should appear in In the midst of a time of great change, of the bill if this parliament is to have any faith great technological progress, and indeed that the government and the new owner will political consideration of the management of meet these obligations of looking after those that technological progress, particularly with in the bush. Over the last two years, time and respect to digitisation, what sort of fiasco is time again it has been the Australian Labor the government trying to establish here? Party highlighting the concerns of regional Imagine the difficulty that the national broad- Australia. The cuts to the ABC and the sale casters are going to be in when they seek to of Telstra, which I have already mentioned, negotiate with a company, or perhaps a series and the cutting of Radio National are all of companies, of corporate entities, which will examples of the diminution of services in the have a clear monopoly over transmission communications area to regional Australia. facilities and the transmission networks. Here is another bill that does nothing to Here is one of the first fundamental contra- protect or support, let alone enhance, those dictions of this whole process. Here we have critical services. I ask: where are those sup- a government whose rhetoric waxes long and posed to be the voices of rural Australia rather lame on issues of competition, of speaking up when this government is making achieving efficiencies, through that means. decisions that will hit people hardest out there Yet this proposal is a transfer of what could in rural and regional Australia? We do not be construed as a public monopoly to a hear them in debate because we are dealing private monopoly. In the eyes of competition with the Liberals’ ideological agenda. The policy, the latter is the far worse result in National Party representatives in this place are terms of consumers and certainly in terms of not to be seen when it comes to slashing, the public interest. funding, cutting and selling off our telecom- munications infrastructure. I am quite bewildered as to how some senators on the other side of this chamber There is nothing in this bill that guarantees who purport to represent regional Australia that the current policy objectives of the are supporting these bills, considering that National Transmission Agency will be main- they contain no guarantees regarding the tained. While the bill does contain some maintenance of services in rural and regional limited community service obligations, these areas. We see speculation currently in the are far more constrained than those which are context of the Telstra privatisation debate that currently in existence. How ironic it is that the only way this government can protect when the government is deciding to sell off services for regional areas is not through a Australia’s broadcasting infrastructure it process of asset sales, of deregulation, of actually reduces the community obligations on competition in the private sector, but through those who will control the transmission re-regulation to force those corporate entities network. to provide a prescribed minimum service in With respect to the ABC and SBS, the areas that don’t ‘turn a quid’. And let’s face minister claims they will draw up a compact it—because we are such a big country, be- with the two broadcasters which will seek to cause we are so vast, some areas of this spell out what the coverage and quality country in the telecommunications context expectations will be for those who own the will never turn a quid. In this fact lies the national transmission network. Well, how is 3174 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 that for a gesture? The same minister con- will arrive with such a vision, with such a tinues to cut the funding of our national commitment to expanding the opportunities of broadcaster with each consecutive budget and, all Australians to access such services, with with respect to technological progression, an an underlying philosophy of equity of that issue which is fundamentally linked to the access. services that the National Transmission I want the government to tell me how it Authority provide, they have restricted the will do that, because experience shows us that capability of the ABC through lack of suffi- the only way governments can enforce a cient funding for their digitisation strategy. commitment to those issues by corporate The government claims that in return for entities is through a re-regulation, through a this compact it will be covering the costs of strident compliance regime that in turn starts the transmission contracts for the next five to eat into any perceived deficiencies that years. Let us see, does that relate to the they hope to attain through the sale in the timetable for the digitisation strategy? It first place. And with a compliance regime comes close, it is a big longer. How does it must come penalties, there must come a relate to the out years funding commitment by disincentive if that corporate entity does not this government to the ABC? All these things conform with the desired requirements of the must be reviewed alongside each other. Five government. years does not afford the protection to the Here is the second greatest contradiction: national broadcaster that is required to make the government is floating these concepts up what is fundamentally an irreversible decision against the rhetoric that we hear from it about to sell the authority. I think it is also a rea- free market enterprise, about how the private sonable thing to say that I can assume that sector always does it better than the public undertaking is about as good as Minister sector, but it starts to ring very hollow and is Alston’s undertaking a couple of years back exposed as not being an argument of sub- to actually guarantee ABC funding. stance when it comes to the selling off of It is very difficult for anyone to claim that public infrastructure in this way. the NTA is an inefficient organisation. To Like many senators on the other side of the what degree the government will lean on this, chamber, I too am a keen listener of Triple J I expect we shall hear. The NTA over the last and one of the greatest achievements of the few years dramatically expanded its network, National Transmission Authority was its resulting in the substantial expansion of radio expansion of the network that has facilitated and television services to regional Australia. the broadcast of Triple J to thousands upon In fact, the expansion of the network since thousands of young Australians. Triple J has 1992 has facilitated an extra 1.3 million been revolutionised as a result of regional Australians having access to national radio broadcasting and has not only acted as a and television services. ABC services alone wonderful new service to young people in have been extended to a further 468,000 rural and regional Australia but has brought Australians over the last six years, with metropolitan young people and rural people 453,000 Australians also now having access together. It has provided a unique unifying to SBS television. factor amongst the youth of this country. This growth, this improved access to these Where is the vision going to emerge from this services, has got to be attributed in some way government and what are their solutions to to the dedication of the team at the NTA and address these concepts? Triple J’s series of the former Labor government’s vision and ‘Unearthed’ concerts have been great exam- commitment to expanding the network. This ples once again about how we bring rural and vision and dedication is lacking from this regional Australia together with metropolitan government and I am yet to hear how this Australia, sharing their culture, sharing their vision will emerge in the private sector. This voice. government stands up here and says that a These are the tangible examples of what I corporate entity which purchases the NTA am talking about when I talk about equity and Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3175 access and how our communications and Labor Party to rail against the ignoring of telecommunications infrastructure are so public interest in this regard, but they did not critical to all Australians. It is not just about listen in 1995. They are still resisting and, in switching the TV on or the radio on and fact, they told me they would not vote for an being able to get a service, it is about the inquiry—a long overdue inquiry—into the quality of service that provides. That point social impacts of competition policy. That takes me back to an earlier point in that you motion stayed on the Senate Notice Paper for cannot address these issues unless you look at weeks—in fact, probably months—waiting to the big picture, the funding issues relating to see whether there was some iota of support in the national broadcasters that use the NTA. It the Labor Party for looking at the whole is all linked and it all points to how critical gamut of issues involved with competition the retention of public ownership of these policy to see if we can responsibly assess, as services is because that allows philosophies of a community and as a parliament, whether we parties like the Labor Party to shine through are going in the right direction and whether and allows these services and the opportuni- we have put public interest in the right place ties that they subsequently provide to continue in terms of public policy. And they have to be a feature on the Australian political resisted it. landscape. In conclusion, I would once again We know the government is likely to resist like to recognise the dedicated work of all the it. We know that in 1995 there was a Labor employees of the NTA over the years. They government and a different Prime Minister, are a group of people who have much to be but there is time to reassess that now. It is no proud of. good saying, every time one of these issues Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) comes up, ‘The government of the day is not (11.52 a.m.)—In listening to the debate so far acting in the public interest’ when we had the today, I have been very cheered to see issues chance, and still have the chance, of assessing of public interest brought up continually, in whether we can put public interest more particular by the ALP. I took particular strongly into the competition policy regime. interest in that because for some time, in fact I will move to the Greens (WA) position in since before 1995, we have been dealing with relation to the National Transmission Network the issue of competition policy, that is, the Sale Bill. The Greens (WA) are not convinced major shift in policy that has occurred—and that the sale of the national transmission we know that it is supported by both major network is ostensibly in the public interest. parties—where everything that can be done The plan is to sell off the range of assets by the private sector and everything that can currently contained in the National Transmis- be opened up to the market will be opened up sion Agency. Essentially, the assets consist of to the market. This is an ongoing process. transmitters used to broadcast ABC and SBS What happened in 1995 is not the be-all and television and radio programs throughout end-all. We are involved in this process as we Australia. The government’s argument is that speak and in the end, by legislation, we will it will enhance customer service through be required to open sectors up to the market competition. In addition, the government unless there are exemptions, and I have not proposes that the sale will benefit the public seen any. by retirement of debt. I find their contributions encouraging but Going back to the debate we had in 1995, also concerning because public interest was what we could find out in 1995 from both never a strong point of the 1995 competition major parties was that public interest equals policy legislation. Whether it is opening up competition equals public interest. It was a markets, opening up public provision of circular argument. There were some exemp- services to the market or, as in this case, tions but they were very limited. We find privatising what is currently a public asset, we these arguments less than convincing. Compe- have no legislative guarantee that the public tition and debt retirement seem to be the interest will prevail. It is all very well for the government’s catchcry and pet argument 3176 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 whenever they cannot think of a rational Facilities in the bush are faced with yet reason to pursue their endless privatisation another threat by this sale. The community and deregulation agenda. We heard it with service obligations are a watered down ver- Telstra and the banks, and the same line has sion of what is already in existence, and we been pushed again in relation to the national have seen that before. Whenever there is a transmission network. It is highly questionable government asset for sale, in order to push up whether increased so-called competition and the price, they reduce the compliance for debt retirement are in the public interest in those networks. So instead of having more this case. While these things are not necessa- oversight and more regulations, as they would rily bad in principle, it is necessary to look at usually do in America when there is a public the costs associated with going down this service provided by a private provider, they track. It is also necessary to look at alterna- are actually having less; and I find that tive means of achieving the same results. extraordinary. The national transmission network, under The government is making noises along the Commonwealth control, is an extremely lines of ‘she’ll be right, mate’. The efficient network. As mentioned by other government plans to ensure national coverage speakers, in the last few years it has dramati- through the contract with the purchaser of the cally expanded its network and, in doing so, network. This is clearly an unsatisfactory has performed an admirable role in extending arrangement. Any protections or assurances of radio and television access. A lot of that has access in the bush should be in this bill so come, I have to add, by parliamentary pres- that the parliament can determine whether or sure. It could be pork-barrelling and it could not they are adequate. Will the contract be before elections, but parliamentary pressure ensure quality of access? Will it even ensure has added to that. Pressures within electorates, current access? What about the price of we know, have added to that. continued access? What about those rural and The national transmission network has spent regional areas that do not have current cover- a lot of money keeping its equipment up to age? There are no promises made about speed, despite funding cuts. Over the last few extending coverage to those people who do years, the national transmission network has not already have access. not only updated and expanded its services Remember that, under corporate law, the but has also managed to implement significant primary obligation of the corporation which savings in its recurrent costs. As the NTN is purchases the national transmission network, already providing excellent and efficient whether they are from Australia or from service to its customers and the community at overseas, is to their shareholders. They will large, the claims of efficiency through compe- do whatever is best to enhance the profits of tition—another of the famous catchcries of their shareholders. If that means cutting, government, despite any evidence to the reducing or limiting access to services in contrary—does not hold much water. When remote and regional areas in Australia, under you cream off the profit margins here, who is corporate law that is what they must do unless getting more benefit than they got before? there are laws to tell them otherwise. We note The Greens (WA) have major concerns that commercial broadcasters will be provided about the continuation of national coverage with a grant to operate in declared remote and customer service obligations in regional, areas. This grant should be extended to rural and remote areas. We have already national and community broadcasters. heard of the plans to make digital telephones Long-term access to transmission facilities and television services compulsory and to cut for the ABC and SBS is another issue that is off the access to analogs. This is another still up in the air. The bill assures access for situation where, in the future, technology the next five years, but what will happen after itself may cut off access, and what direct that? Will we be assured by another wink and implications does that have for parliamentary a ‘she’ll be right’ from the government? The input into the provision of services? ABC and SBS will undoubtedly be in under- Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3177 dog positions when it comes to doing their have less control through public accountabili- own bargaining when the five years is up. ty. So, yes, they do want some control of the They will be bargaining with owners in a network and to have a greater say in transmis- distinct monopoly position. As the govern- sion. I am not entirely sure that, in the current ment has acknowledged—and, indeed, is commercial environment, this is necessarily proud of—the ABC and SBS will be in a in the best interests of consumers in remote direct commercial relationship with a provid- and regional Australia—that still has to be er. A direct commercial relationship comes argued. Does the sale of the network give with all the power imbalances that come with them greater control? This is yet to be proved. any monopoly provider and with all the The government could have allowed the pressures to make direct commercial decisions ABC and SBS greater control by directly and not public interest decisions. funding their transmission costs and providing Another concern is that the national interest them with control of the radio communica- objectives of the ABC and SBS will be tions spectrum used to broadcast their ser- undermined. The Friends of the ABC are vices. The sale of the national transmission concerned that working in a commercial network does not have to be a step towards context could put unwanted and unwarranted giving greater control; in fact, it may lead in pressure on the ABC and SBS to cede to the other direction. Although I imagine that commercial interests, especially when the five it would be heresy if the government extend- years are up. On top of that, the ABC and ed the funding to the ABC and SBS when it SBS are reliant on the government to fund was something it could flog off to service their access to the network. How long will debt, it is something that should be con- that last? Promises of funding have been sidered. made and broken in the past. The promise of Community broadcasters are also under maintaining funding in real terms to our threat. These energetic and colourful broad- national broadcasters has proved to be hollow. casters do not, under this bill, receive any Our national broadcasters have had to feel the kind of supplement or real guarantee of access pain and have been made sacrificial lambs to transmission facilities. The government is every year when the knife comes out at showing a complete lack of understanding of budget time—of course, this is less so in an the role and importance of community broad- election year. Not only are the ABC and SBS casters. They play an important and unique faced with the uncertainty of continued role that cannot be replaced by commercial access but also they will not know the price broadcasters. They present a diversity of of access or whether the government will views and opinions that provides a unique provide adequate funding. service which caters to local people. Many The government claims that the ABC and community broadcasters would go under if SBS want this direct commercial relationship they had to pay full prices for access to and that it is just playing fairy godmother in broadcasting services. This would be a grave making that wish come true. Obviously I have loss to the community and a significant heard from representatives of the ABC and reduction in diversity. But maybe it is in the SBS, as have many other players in this interests of the government to have those debate. They said to me quite clearly that they voices silenced. Is this the kind of vision that want to have some aspect of control of the the government has for the future of Austral- network. Will this do it for them? I think the ia? government misstates the position of the ABC Another concern relates to who will buy the and SBS in this regard. What they really want national transmission network. There are no is, as I said, greater control of the transmis- limits on foreign ownership, for a start. Also, sion network. This does not necessarily mean the bill makes no provision for potential the sale of the national transmission network. conflicts of interest if a commercial broadcast- We would argue that, with the sale of the er bought the network. What are the implica- network, the ABC and SBS potentially may tions there? Will there be any restrictions in 3178 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 the legislation? No. For instance, if there were Minister, one of his great achievements was a breakdown in the network, the commercial to bring competition policy to many parts of services would be repaired ahead of the the Australian economy that had not previous- national broadcasters. ly be exposed. He did so in a sensible, practi- All in all, the Greens have not been con- cal and workable way. vinced that the government has provided The Australian Labor Party in government enough assurances to the Australian communi- had that approach to competition. They also, ty. We have been asked to stand at the abyss as Senator Margetts will recall, had an ap- and to take a leap of faith that things will proach to privatisation—the privatisation of work out better not only for the bottom lines great Australian icons. In government, of of broadcasters—the ABC and SBS—but also course, having promised at the 1990 election for the provision of services to the Australian that they would not sell the Commonwealth community. We are talking about short-term Bank—and Ben Chifley would turn in his budget bottom lines as opposed to long-term grave—they sold the Commonwealth Bank. interests. I have strongly argued that we have It was the Victorian Labor Party that sold the never assessed long-term Australian public State Bank of Victoria. interest in relation to competition policy; the Labor Party has resisted us doing that. Now Senator Schacht—That is national infra- that we have more and more examples of structure. where this is going wrong without any real Senator IAN CAMPBELL—We will get control by the parliament, maybe the Labor to infrastructure, Senator Schacht, because Party will agree that it is time to go back and you are pretty good at selling that too. You look at public interest and the social impacts sold Australian Airlines. The people opposite of competition policy. The benchmark should sold Qantas. Of course, it might be argued be community service, not an ideological that one of the two major airlines formed a agenda. This bill does not address the real significant part of the national infrastructure. impacts of service provision in Australia. After promising they were not going to sell, Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Labor sold the airline. It also sold the Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories—a Treasurer) (12.08 p.m.)—I thank honourable massive, dominant and crucial part of the senators for their contributions to this debate. social fabric of this country that provides We apologise that Senator Alston is not able serums and a range of other pharmaceutical to be here. He is on his way back to Canberra products. and will be here shortly. He has asked that I Senator Schacht, by way of interjection, sum up the second reading debate and move mentioned infrastructure. We know from to the early consideration of the bill in com- reading what has been written since the defeat mittee. of the Keating government that the first A number of important issues have been tranche of the Australian Labor Party’s tele- raised by honourable senators opposite during communications privatisation program in the this debate. Can I say from the outset that I area of telecommunications infrastructure was share with Senator Margetts an interest in the well afoot in 1991. Their plans to sell Telstra, approach of the Australian Labor Party to in fact, were well afoot. Their plans to priva- these issues. We saw, as Senator Margetts tise the Yellow Pages and a range of other will remember, an approach by the Australian parts of Telstra, and indeed Telstra itself, Labor Party in government which—and I were well in hand at the time the Keating believe to former Prime Minister Keating’s government was defeated. The first tranche of great credit—embraced competition policy. the Australian Labor government’s telecom- We saw a move to bring the benefits of munications privatisation program was the competition to the Australian economy, and sale in 1991, as I recall, of Aussat. You have I praise the former Prime Minister for that. to go back—I think it was the Aussat repeal Although he had many failures as a Prime bill in 1991—to see who supported the sale Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3179 of that important part of a telecommunications when it came to Aussat, a crucial piece of infrastructure. telecommunications infrastructure—the sale of Senator Schacht has gone very quiet now— the substantial satellite network of Australia— he is complying with standing orders for the the Labor government was supported, of first time in his parliamentary life. He has course, by the Australian Democrats. At the gone very quiet now we raise Aussat, this time, I understand Senator Kernot led the crucial part— charge to get the Democrats to support that legislation. Senator Schacht—I rise on a point of order, Mr Acting Deputy President. I have Senator Margetts, I know you were not here always had an attitude that when people get in 1991, but your party has been the only up and drop a bit of abuse on you and so on, non-coalition party in this place that has been that that is the give and take of the parlia- consistently opposed to privatisation on ment. I have never been a great one for taking fundamental philosophical grounds. We have points of order. But I have to say that I have always supported privatisation. been here for nearly 11 years and I have Senator Schacht—You are just filling in always complied with the standing orders and time until Richard gets here. the direction from the chair. I know Senator Ian Campbell is enthusiastic in exaggerating Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I am not; I my role in the Senate, but I have to say that am making the point about the hypocrisy of I have always complied with the standing the Australian Labor Party when it comes to orders in the Senate and I think that you these debates. They have not given any reason might want to reconsider the broad scope of why the national transmission network should his remarks in that area. not be privatised, and I wanted to knock over The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT a number of the arguments in relation to that. (Senator Calvert)—Senator Schacht, you The Labor Party’s philosophy and policy in have made your point, but there is no point of relation to this, if they were to be consistent, order. would have a number of logical conse- quences. They have said that we cannot sell Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Thank you, this—and Senator Schacht, by way of inter- Mr Acting Deputy President. The point I was jection, has made it clear that this is their making, of course, was that the Australian philosophy—because this is a major part of Labor Party in government was pretty gung infrastructure, and it should not be sold. ho about selling major bits of infrastructure, Firstly, they sold Aussat— and Aussat was clearly a part of that. A substantial part of the telecommunications Senator Schacht—There is no comparison infrastructure of Australia was sold and, of between a satellite and 1,500 transmitters course, it could only have been sold if the across Australia. Senate had passed the Aussat repeal bill in Senator IAN CAMPBELL—There is no around 1991. This was very much part of Mr comparison, but of course Aussat is a net- Beazley’s policy when he was communica- work; it is a communications network. If you tions minister, it was very much part of continued in a consistent manner the applica- Australian Labor Party policy, and it was the tion of the Labor Party’s philosophy and first bite of the Labor Party’s implementation principles and policy in relation to this mat- of their plan to privatise telecommunications ter—and the great thing about the Labor in this country. Party, I guess, is that they do not follow a The sale of Aussat did not really need the consistent path, because if they did, the support of the Democrats to get through this country would have been in a worse position parliament because clearly the coalition would than it was. They are very pragmatic, they have supported it. You hear from the Demo- change, depending on which way the wind crats fairly regularly, when a privatisation blows, like an old windmill. If the wind blows debate comes up here, that they have never from the east, they swing around like a wind supported a privatisation. The fact is that vane. 3180 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

If you cross the Tweed River—this is the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I appreciate Wayne Swan doctrine and the Kim Beazley being allowed to continue. This is where the doctrine—just in the Northern Rivers district hypocrisy is, and I was getting to the point of New South Wales, their policy, position about consistency in policy as it relates to and rhetoric on native title has to quickly telecommunications quite specifically. change. If you move from Western Australia If you were to apply the Schacht doctrine, across the Nullarbor Plain, their position on the Lundy doctrine, to the ownership of native title has to change. When Mr Beazley, telecommunications infrastructure and the Mr Smith, Senator Cook and Senator Bishop, ownership of networks, they would not have amongst others, go to the city of Kalgoorlie, sold Aussat, they would have kept that in they have a position on native title, but when public ownership, and, quite frankly, they they get over here it is different. So I guess, would have purchased from Vodaphone, or in a way, the inconsistency and hypocrisy of Iridium, their low earth orbiting satellite the Australian Labor Party and their smorgas- network. They would go and buy 66 satellites bord approach to policy— because it is a crucial part of Australia’s Senator Conroy—Mr Acting Deputy emerging telecommunications infrastructure President, I raise a point of order on rel- and they would say, ‘Sorry, this is national evance, and what the Labor Party’s position telecommunications infrastructure and the north of Tweed Heads has to do with this bill. public should own it.’ The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Furthermore, they would go to Foxtel or to (Senator Calvert)—Senator Conroy, the Telstra corporation and they would say, ‘This minister is summing up the second reading cable that you have rolled out on the ground debate, and I am quite interested in hearing to enable hundreds of thousands, if not what he has to say. I am finding it rather millions, of Australians to get the benefit of difficult with interjections from my left, I cable—’ might say. Senator Schacht—Iridium cannot broadcast television; it is about mobile phones, dill! Senator IAN CAMPBELL—On the point of order, as part of my summing up of this The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— debate, I am going to get to issues effecting Order! Senator Schacht, you have been regional— continually interjecting. I note from the speakers list you have already spoken, you Senator Conroy—What has Wik got to do will have an opportunity in the committee with this? stage to reiterate your position. I would like Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I was about to hear the minister make his points in si- to get to issues effecting regional Australia. lence. Mr Acting Deputy President, we have had all Senator Schacht—Mr Acting Deputy of the coalition senators talking about the President, I raise a point of order. It goes to government’s range of policies in relation to relevance. I spoke to the bill. It is their bill. regional Australia and, if I am allowed to He has spoken about everything else that is under your stewardship of the chamber, I am not in the bill. Iridium is a satellite system going to get to the hypocrisy of the Australian that has got nothing to do with television or Labor Party in relation to the treatment of radio broadcasting—it is about mobile phones, regional Australia, particularly when it comes for goodness sake. We have had talks about to things like Wik, and that is why it is Wik; we are asking him to debate the bill. important to look at regional Australia. We know he has got to fill in 15 minutes of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I time until Senator Alston gets back from think you have made your point on the point abusing the ABC board, but we ask the of order. There is no point of order, and I ask minister at the table to talk about the bill. you to continue your summing up on this Further to my speech in the second reading particular bill. debate, could he please explain, simply, Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3181 whether the government has signed an agree- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—In principle ment with the ABC or SBS on what money there is no difference. This is a transmission it is going to provide for the next five years network. To get to the specific points, we do to pay for transmission costs? It is a simple need to ensure that regional Australia receives request from the second reading debate, and a better service than it is receiving at the you still have not answered it. I can tell you, moment. We do need to ensure that. The Parliamentary Secretary, Iridium is not the privatisation of the transmission network is way to deliver ABC broadcasting. the best opportunity that regional Australia has to ensure that their transmissions are The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—If received efficiently and at the best price. The that was a point of order, it was a rather long ABC desperately want this new regime one. There is no point of order. Minister, will because it gives them options. It gives the you continue your summing up, and I remind SBS and ABC the benefits of price competi- you that, presumably, the questions asked by tion. It gives them a whole range of new Senator Schacht will be answered in the options when it comes to rolling out new committee stage. services into regional areas. That is why the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—If we do not ABC and SBS and regional areas in particular have this constant interruption with points of benefit from this. order, I will get to it. I have got a series of I get to the point that I was discussing responses to very important points made by when we were debating that point of order honourable senators opposite—mostly, other earlier, Mr Acting Deputy President. These than Senator Schacht. Australian Labor Party people opposite would There is a key principle here: we are trying have you believe that they are the friends of to look at the position of people like Senator people in remote and regional Australia. I ask Lundy, who contributed to this debate on the Senator Schacht or Senator Lundy to go out public ownership of the means of production to Wyndham, Kununurra, Leonora, Leinster, and these distribution networks, when it Laverton, Esperance, Halls Creek, Mount comes to telecommunications. If you can Magnet or Meekatharra—any of those argue that broadcasting and the ownership of places—and hold a discussion on public broadcasting networks is not related to Telstra policy out there. I will tee up the venues. and Foxtel’s cable, then Senator Schacht is Senator Schacht—Yours is the first drawing a very long bow, if not a very long government ever to put a TV station off the cable. If you apply their principle, which is air—GWN in Wyndham. that the Commonwealth should own this Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I challenge transmission network, then the Labor Party’s Senator Schacht. We will have a debate about policy should be that they would nationalise public policy in Kalgoorlie. Do you know the Foxtel cable network. It is as simple as what they will say to the Australian Labor that. There is no difference. Party? ‘Don’t you pretend to be our friends Senator Schacht—The Foxtel cable is up here. We know how you voted on the Wik owned by Telstra which we want to keep in legislation, we know what you were doing to public ownership. our economy. Don’t come and talk to us about ABC or SBS.’ You would be lucky to Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Senator get out of there in one piece, Senator Schacht, Schacht reinforces our position that they after voting the way you did on the Wik would prefer to have a cable network, and legislation. You are destroying regional indeed Optus is cable. Senator Schacht might Western Australia. by way of interjection—without encouraging Oppostion senators interjecting— him any further—suggest whether the Labor Party intends to nationalise the Optus cable Senator IAN CAMPBELL—The people in network. remote and regional Western Australia know that you do not get the best expansion of Senator Schacht—Here we go. transmission services by having the transmis- 3182 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 sion network owned by the Commonwealth of mented. I say to the people of Australia: on Australia. What you have got to ensure is that communications policy, compare Senator you have a good access regime. We have Alston, somebody who knows what he is already put in by way of contract between the doing, a quality minister, to old Mr Beazley, ABC and SBS a five-year guaranteed con- who spent the first couple of years in the tract. Everyone talks about five years but it is portfolio trying to find out what a policy actually 14 years. They all ignore that. You was— have got five years plus three years plus three The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— years plus three years, so the access is guar- Senator Campbell, could we return to the anteed for an absolute minimum of 14 years. summing up of the bill? Senator Schacht—You have not guaran- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—We are teed the money for 14 years. talking about it, Mr Acting Deputy President. Senator IAN CAMPBELL—The Com- This bill is a crucial part of our policy to try monwealth has guaranteed the funding. to fix up the mess that the Australian Labor Furthermore, the access regime is guaranteed Party left communications policy in in this as well. In terms of coverage and quality of country. Cascading bids: say no more. Senator ABC and SBS services, the legislation does Collins, I hope you are enjoying your retire- provide a regulatory framework which will ment, because the communications industry underpin contractual controls to ensure that certainly is. the government’s commitment to preserving We need to look at the very important the existing coverage and quality of ABC and issues relating to community broadcasters and SBS is met. The opposition, of course, choose radio for the print handicapped. The 19 to ignore that. Furthermore, the minister’s community broadcasters which currently use approval will be required if the NTA wishes the NTA transmission facilities will be re- to sell or transfer some or all of its assets quired to pay commercial charges. This will needed to supply these services. There is a put these 19 broadcasters in exactly the same guarantee: if the NTA does choose to move position as the more than 120 other communi- out of an area, it will have to come back to ty broadcasters who already make their own the minister, and the minister is required— arrangements for the use of non-NTA sites. Senator Schacht—He will cave in abso- The government estimates that the aggregate lutely. In all of these matters he is an abject increase for these 19 broadcasters will ap- coward. proximate $30,000. The government today Senator IAN CAMPBELL—God help announces formally that the Community Australia if Senator Schacht ever becomes the Broadcasters Foundation will be given— minister. The people of Australia remember Senator Conroy—More notes, quick. He very clearly what happened with ministers for has run out. communications when the Labor Party was in Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I have got power. We had this fantastic roll-up. We had plenty of notes here; it is just that part of the Mr Beazley when he was minister for com- writing is slightly hard to read. I formally munications stuff up Aussat. Then we had announce that the government will be provid- Senator Bob Collins. He was a ripper. Who ing to the Community Broadcasters Founda- remembers cascading bids? That was a lot of tion an annual grant of $30,000, which will fun, wasn’t it? more than cover that. Senator Conroy—Has this got any rel- Can I also say that, in relation to SBS self- evance whatsoever? help programs, today the minister will be Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Well, Senator announcing new funding to be provided to the Schacht interjected about the minister for SBS to establish a program to help new self- communications, who has actually got com- help groups with their establishment costs. munications policy back on the track. We Senator Schacht may want to listen to this. have got a quite clear policy being imple- The funding will be around $150,000 in 1998- Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3183

99, $300,000 in 1999-2000, and then Treasurer)—by leave—I wish to make a brief $500,000 per year ongoing from the year personal explanation in relation to a speech 2000. That is to assist SBS self-help pro- that I think has been misunderstood. I would grams. never seek to knowingly mislead or Furthermore, today the minister will be misrepresent anything that Senator Bourne announcing that new funding of around $2.5 says. I am sure that she would accept that on million will be provided to SBS over the next the face of it. But I did refer specifically to three years to assist with improvements in the the repeal bill. quality of SBS television reception in Sydney. Senator Bourne—That’s not the sale. You While it is entirely a matter for SBS, it is said we voted for the sale. likely that the funding will be used to relocate Senator IAN CAMPBELL—No, I did the main transmitter. As I have said— refer to that bill by name. I was grappling for Senator Schacht—You must be getting the exact name but I did say the Aussat some political heat. You’re trying to drag Repeal Bill. We can have an argument about some money out. whether or not that constitutes agreeing to a Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Senator privatisation. Senator Bourne, I accept, on the Schacht talks about heat. They say that they face of it— are friends of the ABC. The ABC is extreme- Senator Schacht—This is extraordinary! ly keen to ensure that it receives the benefits The minister at the table is filibustering. of the improvements that the increases in the efficiency of national transmissions will Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I am not deliver to it. The ABC and the SBS, as filibustering, I am making an explanation, in Senator Schacht would admit if he were to be relation to a speech, under standing order 191, entirely frank about this, will be significant and that is that I specifically— beneficiaries of this reform. It is a great Senator Schacht interjecting— shame that the Australian Labor Party have Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Through you, refused to support this. It is clearly an act of Mr Acting Deputy President—I will try to hypocrisy compared to their position on these abide by the standing orders even if Senator matters in government, particularly in relation Schacht cannot—I was quite specific about to the way they sold Aussat. I commend the the bill I referred to. If Senator Bourne bill to the house. (Time expired) believes I have misrepresented the position of Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—by the Democrats, I fully accept her explanation. leave—I wish to make a brief personal ex- Question put: planation as I claim to have been misrepresented. The Parliamentary Secretary That the bills be now read a second time. to the Treasurer, Senator Ian Campbell, said at one point in relation to the sale of Aussat The Senate divided. [12.44 p.m.] that the Democrats had voted for the sale of (The Acting Deputy President—Senator Aussat. If he checks Hansard of December P.H. Calvert) 1990 he will find that the Democrats and Ayes ...... 34 former Senator Jo Vallentine were the only Noes ...... 34 senators to vote against the sale of Aussat. He —— is probably thinking about the Aussat Repeal Majority ...... 0 Bill, which was an appropriation bill as a —— consequence of the sale of Aussat. No vote AYES was taken but the Democrats did indicate that Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. we would reluctantly agree to the appropri- Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. ation being made because the sale had already Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. taken place. Coonan, H. Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Harradine, B. Heffernan, W. * 3184 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

AYES issue of securing our financial future. When Herron, J. Hill, R. M. I was a youngster going from primary school Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. to secondary school, Australia’s financial Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. situation was in a very good state. For young McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. people of my generation—and I include you Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. in that, Madam Acting Deputy President Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. Reynolds—the world was our oyster. There Payne, M. A. Synon, K. M. were opportunities galore and jobs galore. But Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. gradually, over a period of time, those oppor- Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. tunities have been whittled away, particularly NOES over the 13 years that Labor was in govern- Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bishop, M. Bolkus, N. ment. Bourne, V. Brown, B. Campbell, G. Collins, J. M. A. On 12 May 1998 Peter Costello, the federal Conroy, S. * Cook, P. F. S. Treasurer, announced a budget surplus of $2.7 Cooney, B. Crowley, R. A. billion for the financial year 1998 to 1999. Denman, K. J. Evans, C. V. Faulkner, J. P. Forshaw, M. G. Further budget surpluses are projected to Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. reduce net debt from a peak under Labor of Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. about 20 per cent of GDP to around 1.5 per Mackay, S. Margetts, D. cent of GDP by 2001-02. That is an extraordi- McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. nary achievement. I am often asked why this Murray, A. Neal, B. J. government is so determined to reform the O’Brien, K. W. K. Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. economic management of this country and Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. reduce debt. The reason we are so determined, West, S. M. Woodley, J. firstly, is that there are a lot of older Austral- PAIRS ians that I have met as I moved around the Crane, W. Quirke, J. A. country doing consultations for the Interna- Watson, J. O. W. Carr, K. tional Year of Older Persons who are alarmed * denotes teller that the legacy they left us, the inheritance (Senator Alston did not vote, to compen- they left us, was being squandered and that sate for the vacancy caused by the resignation the inheritance of the next generation was of Senator Bob Collins.) being spent by this generation—and basically Question so resolved in the negative. by Labor when it was in government for 13 years. What we were doing was using up the inheritance we had, and we were borrowing CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATION against the inheritance of the next generation. Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell)—as amended by leave—agreed to: Debt does not exist in isolation. When you have debt, as all of us who have mortgages or That the government business orders of the day have bought something on time payment relating to the following bills may be taken together for their remaining stages: know, interest must be paid on the debt. When government debt grows, as it did under Australian Prudential Regulation Authority Bill 1998 and 10 associated bills Labor, it must also be paid for through inter- est repayments. Those interest repayments Financial Sector Reform (Consequential Amend- ments) Bill 1998. represent opportunities forgone. In the terms of economists, what you spend on interest you MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST cannot spend on other things. I remember a lesson I learnt when I was a youngster. I National Debt wanted to buy a dress. In those days people Senator PATTERSON (Victoria) (12.45 used to go door to door selling clothes on p.m.)—I rise today to speak about an issue time payment. My mother warned me about which I believe is of great importance: the buying this dress, but I wanted a new nylon Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3185 dress. They were the days when nylon had to unemployment. As I have said, businesses come out. are forced to lay off staff to keep up with the Senator Sandy Macdonald—Still got it? repayments of debt. Senator PATTERSON—No, I have not Another factor which occurs is that funds still got it. But I decided that I was going to from overseas investors fuel land and price buy this dress, and I was going to pay two speculation, and they take these things out of shillings a week on this dress. My mother was the reach of ordinary Australians and again right because, by the time I had finished push up inflation. While inflation may give paying for the dress, the dress had worn out the impression of growth in wages and other and was out of fashion. I learnt a very big benefits, this growth is illusionary as inflation lesson from that about buying something on is typically accompanied by high interest rates time payment. I also had to pay interest, and and rising prices for basic commodities like I paid a lot more for that dress than I should bread and milk. Successive Labor govern- have. It was a very good lesson. Thank ments oversaw the cycle of debt, high interest heavens it was only on a dress that I learnt rates, high unemployment and high inflation. that lesson. I think we constantly need to remind the Senator Vanstone—Not on the national Australian public that under Labor the budget accounts. deficit each year was running at about $10.3 billion. That is, every year we were spending Senator PATTERSON—Not on the nation- $10.3 billion more than we had, more than we al accounts. My mother let me have my head, were receiving in taxes. We were living off and I am glad she did because I learnt a very the next generation’s inheritance. For grand- good lesson; a lesson which people on the parents who are listening, we were spending other side obviously have not learnt. your grandchildren’s money. For parents If you have a debt on the national accounts, listening, we were spending your children’s you have interest repayments which could money. We were $10.3 billion in excess. have been otherwise spent. As Senator Government debt reached $96 billion, or more Vanstone said, it could have been otherwise than $5,000 for every Australian. Home spent on improving Australian schools, hous- interest rates peaked at 17 per cent, and small ing and hospitals—and all the other things business interest rates reached 20.5 per cent. that people come into our offices telling us Unemployment climbed to 11.2 per cent, and we ought to be spending money on. These inflation averaged 5.7 per cent. repayments grow with the debt, and eventual- ly higher interest rates are needed to attract It took the Liberal-National Party coalition the necessary funds. Higher interest rates to break the cycle. As announced in the affect all Australians. They affect farmers, federal budget of 12 May 1998, we expect to who find it increasingly difficult to keep up achieve a surplus of $2.7 billion for 1998-99. with repayments on their properties. We saw We also anticipate that by 2001-02 govern- in that time of high interest rates under Labor ment debt will have fallen from $96 billion to banks foreclosing on farms and people mov- $9.6 billion, representing a decline in govern- ing off the land. ment debt from 20 per cent of GDP to around 1.5 per cent. As I have said, when you do not Families face higher mortgage rates, and a have that debt, you are not paying off the significant proportion of families’ income is interest and you can afford to do other things. taken up on paying mortgage rates. The goal of trying to purchase a home by young people Flow-on effects from this sound financial is getting further and further out of their management have seen home loan interest reach. Small businesses have difficulty raising rates fall to 6.7 per cent, the lowest rate funds and meeting repayments. When that since—as the Treasurer (Mr Costello) con- occurs the first thing they do is reduce their stantly reminds us—man first walked on the number of staff. Rising debt and increasing moon. Unemployment is now well down on interest rates quickly become a cycle and lead the rate reached under Labor, and inflation is 3186 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 running at minus two per cent—and that is sense of comfort. But the other thing it does the lowest that has been seen since the sixties. is take off the state bill a number of those With debt having been brought under people who would otherwise have been in control by this government, we can now public hospitals around the state, receiving implement initiatives for the benefit of all public benefits from, say, dental schemes and Australians. As many of my honourable puts them onto the Commonwealth bill. So it colleagues in the chamber know, one of my gives also relief to some older people who particular interests is in older Australians. As will now have space and beds in hospitals and a result of our behaving in a financially access to dental programs which were being responsible way, we have seen benefits being taken up by those veterans. So there is a able to be given to people. double effect for the public: first, that those veterans now will be paid for; and, secondly, We have extended access to the Common- the spaces they may have taken up will be wealth seniors health card to an additional able to be used by others. 220,000 self-funded retirees. Many of these people are on reasonably low incomes; some Education, training and job prospects for of them just above the pension. However, Australian young people are being improved they have not been able to get benefit. So we and mutual obligation principles enhanced have given them a sense of security in that, through a $350 million funding package. after they have purchased 52 scrips—I think What we are saying through a lot of our it is—at $3.20, they then, like pensioners, can policies is that there is a obligation, that we receive the rest of their medication for free. have a responsibility to care for those in need, This is something which has been asked for for those who are unemployed, but that those by self-funded retirees. people also have a responsibility back to the community. Many young people are respond- But it was never given by the Labor Party ing in a very positive way to the challenge when it was spending money willy-nilly, being put to them that they have a responsi- borrowing $10.3 billion a year—never given bility along with the rights and privileges they to those people who really wanted the securi- enjoy as members of Australian society. ty of knowing that, if they required an exten- sive amount of medication, it would be free The investing for growth industry statement after having reached a certain number of has been announced, with $1.3 billion being scrips. When Labor was in government, the allocated as part of our extensive industry cap was so high that it gave self-funded reform agenda. Another $180 million has retirees a great degree of concern. been allocated to addressing Australia’s We have allocated $280 million to the greenhouse gas emissions, on top of the $1.25 government’s staying-at-home care and billion already allocated to the National Heri- support for older Australians package. Again, tage Trust by this government. as we have moved around Australia talking to All of this is being able to be done because people, one of the things they say is, ‘We we have behaved in a way which is respon- want choice; when we are frail and need sible, and we are not borrowing to fund these assistance, we want the choice of either initiatives. The initiatives of previous Labor staying at home or being cared for in a governments were undertaken with borrowed residential setting. money—money borrowed from the next Because we have been more frugal than the generation. Labor Party, the other thing we have been Today, in here, I heard Senator Cook able to do is offer gold card access to qualify- saying, ‘We’re going to oppose your tax ing World War II veterans. This has meant reform policy because you haven’t brought it the spending of about $500 million, but to the people in time, and they should have World War II veterans who have faced hostile time before an election.’ He continued, ‘So, forces will now be entitled to a gold card. if you get back in, even though it might be a That, I know—and I have already talked to budgetary measure, we’re going to oppose it.’ some veterans about it—gives them a great Senator Murray challenged him and asked, Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3187

‘Well, what are you going to do on the issue went up, pharmaceutical charges went up, of tax?’ Senator Cook then replied, ‘We’re company taxes went up from 33 per cent to not going to tell you, and we’ll tell you in 36 per cent, wholesale sales tax—that hidden good time in due course.’ I believe that tax that you can slide up without the public section ought to be taken out of the Hansard knowing—went up 2 per cent, excise on and given to a first year philosophy student petrol went up and excise on leaded petrol for an exercise in logic. You are saying, went up even more, which again affected the ‘We’re not going to support you if you get battlers because they are the ones who cannot into government because you haven’t released afford new cars on unleaded petrol. So if your package,’ but you are saying to the anybody thinks that they can believe the Australian public, ‘If the Labor Party gets into Labor Party on taxes and tax reform, let me government, it will be okay, but we’re not remind them of their record. (Time expired) going to give you the details of our tax package or any other package.’ Prime Minister Why should we have to give the informa- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (1.01 tion out any earlier than the Labor Party? The p.m.)—Today I want to talk about a number fact is that the Labor Party is demanding of of matters relating to the actions of this Prime the coalition more than it is prepared to give Minister. Firstly, I want to talk about the to the Australian public. This seems a very manner in which the Howard government has odd argument: we were going to support your gone about its waterfront strategy because that tax reform; now we are not because you have should not surprise anyone. Nor should it not released it in time. Come out and tell us surprise anyone that the Prime Minister has what your policies are; come out and tell us been personally involved in this plan from what you are going to do about tax reform. day one. His involvement has been ongoing. Anyway, even if the Labor Party were to tell Mr Howard ticked off this plan as it was us what they would do about tax reform, developed from early last year. The Prime would the Australian public believe it? Minister is involved in everything because he trusts no one. One assumes with hindsight I remember the 1993 budget. Mr Keating that the waterfront plan might be renamed got up here and said, ‘I will build these ‘operation Titanic’ because it has succeeded personal tax cuts into l-a-w, into law.’ He only in sinking the political machismo of Mr said, ‘It’s not a promise; they are tax cuts Reith and his hapless Prime Minister. written into law.’ He told the Australian public that they could rely on it because it Even in his own office he leaves nothing to was l-a-w, law. And what happened after the chance. This is especially the case since the election? departure of Graham Morris. There is a simple reason for this. Within his own party Senator Brownhill—Mr Beazley was there this Prime Minister has always been an after- too. thought. He has always been the party’s Senator PATTERSON—Mr Beazley was second or third choice as leader. A look at the involved in that too—Mr Beazley and Mr Prime Minister’s path to the Lodge makes this Keating—‘This is an l-a-w promise.’ But it point clearly. In the lead up to the 1983 was b-r-o-k-e-n, broken. That was a promise election Mr Howard saw himself as the heir that was written into law which was broken. apparent. But senators will recall that the then Not only that, they ran around telling Prime Minister, Malcolm Fraser, had a very pensioners that all pensioners would be taken different view. Mr Fraser called Andrew out of the tax system by 1995. What hypocri- Peacock the morning after the election defeat sy. How terrible. Five days after that election and told him he was prepared to do anything Mr Blewett came out and said, ‘Oh, that was to prevent Mr Howard taking the leadership. wrong; we shouldn’t have had it in the pol- His leader dudded Mr Howard and Andrew icy.’ How cynical. And within two years of Peacock got the top job. that budget, sales tax on cars went up from 15 Senators will also recall that in 1985 Mr per cent to 22 per cent, the Medicare levy Peacock called a meeting of the party and 3188 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 declared all leadership positions vacant. Mr I think there are some people who believe it is. Howard had been working on Mr Peacock’s He was then asked what he thought and he demise and the opposition leader decided to said: take the matter head on. Mr Peacock called . . . I wouldn’t like to see it greater . . . I do on Mr Howard to declare he would never ever believe that if in the eyes of some in the communi- run for the leadership but Mr Howard re- ty, it’s too great, it would be in our immediate term fused—of course, he said he would never ever interests, and supportive of social cohesion, if it have a goods and services tax. So Mr Peacock were slowed down a little... pulled on a vote to force Mr Howard’s hand And what was his view on multiculturalism? but Mr Howard did not have the confidence He said that it was an aimless concept. In to nominate; he refused to nominate. Mr 1988 he was happy to take the political Peacock was re-elected but his running mate, course of creating division within the Austral- Mr Moore, was not. The party decided it ian community in pursuit of his political wanted Mr Howard as deputy leader. agenda. It was a simple message: there are Senators will also recall the extraordinary too many Asians coming to Australia. scenes that followed, with Andrew Peacock In his Future directions document released declaring a vote for Howard was a vote in December of that year Mr Howard said he against him and he promptly resigned. So Mr wanted to see ‘one Australia’ not an Australia Howard, who would not throw his hat in the of individual groups. Another simple message: ring and would not even nominate after there if you want to live in Australia you have to had been a spill of positions, found himself as behave like a white European middle class leader of the party. Then Mr Howard lost the heterosexual. One could be forgiven for leadership to Mr Peacock in 1989. Remember thinking that the member for Oxley is a the front page of the Bulletin—‘Mr 14 per plagiarist. cent—why does he bother’ The Prime Minister had another shot at the top job in I must add that Mr Howard was more than 1990 but lost convincingly. He tested the happy to let the member for Oxley and her water again after the 1993 election but did not motley crew run their campaign of division have the gumption to run against John and bigotry. This was despite the best efforts Hewson, who had just lost the unlosable of many—including John Laws of 2UE—to election. He finally returned to the leadership get him to speak out against her as the Prime position of the Liberal Party on Australia Day Minister of Australia. John Laws was rightly in 1995. concerned about the damage she was doing to the social fabric of this community. He So, as I said, Mr Howard has always been wanted the Prime Minister to take a stand. the party’s second or third choice and hence John Laws asked him to act like the Prime he trusts no one. Not only does Mr Howard Minister of Australia and he would not. And not trust his ministry or his party he does not why, because he did not want to—he saw trust the Australian community. He is far political benefit in remaining silent. So Ms more comfortable with the politics of division Hanson and her acolytes parade the misnomer than the politics of consensus. It is a political of one nation. It begs the question: what do strategy the Prime Minister has applied on a we call the Howard Liberals? Half a nation? number of occasions. In August 1988 Mr The manner in which the Prime Minister Howard expressed the view that the number dealt with the debate over the native title of Asians coming to this country was too issue provides further and clear evidence that great. He made this statement in the context Mr Howard’s approach to the Australian of a debate about multiculturalism and its waterfront is true to form. On the ABC’s 7.30 place in Australian society. On the ABC AM Report on 4 September last year the Prime program, Mr Howard was asked: Minister said that the problem with native . . . Mr Howard, is the rate of Asian immigration title is: into Australia too fast? . . . that the pendulum has swung too far in one Mr Howard responded: direction, particularly after the Wik decision... Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3189

He then held up a map of Australia and said: Secretary of the ACTU, Bill Kelty. He was Let me just show your viewers . . . This shows 78 paid over $40,000 for his trouble. per cent of the land mass of Australia—coloured Despite his best efforts the waterfront and brown on the map. Now, the Labor Party and the wharfies were not considered to be so-called Democrats are effectively saying that the Aborigi- nal people of Australia should have the potential ‘top the mind’ issues. There was strong right of veto over further development of 78 per concern about waterfront efficiency, interna- cent of the land mass of Australia. tional competitiveness and any hindrances to He then told the 7.30 Report viewers: exports. The Textor research was then provid- ed to a second consultant—long time Liberal Now that is a very simple message. I think the Australian people will understand that message. Party election strategist, Jonathon Gaul. The Gaul plan was to use the Textor research to It was a very simple message, delivered via paint the wharfies as the privileged elite— a map coloured brown. He was saying to the $100,000 for 14 hours a week and then they community that if we are not careful the all nick off anyway. That is the sort of line blacks will take over the place. It was almost we have been hearing from this government identical—and just as misleading—to the and that is the line that was created by crude but effective campaign run by the Jonathon Gaul. Western Australian Chamber of Mines in the 1980s. The only difference is that their map As with the Asians in 1988, the Aborigines was black, not brown. and the Wik message, it was both simple and divisive. Madam Acting Deputy President, And now the Prime Minister has turned his you would know that the average wharfie is hand to demonising the wharfies. He has like any other Australian worker. He has to decided to be a more sophisticated person in work long hours to make ends meet. He has his approach to this matter. First, he had to a family to support. And in many cases he create the image. How was this achieved? does achieve world’s best practice in his Through his ministers he appointed Liberal workplace. At the port of Burnie in my state, pollster Mark Textor, the principal of Austral- Tasmania, the waterside workers achieved an asian Research Services. Mr Textor, it should average rate, I believe, of 33 containers per be remembered, is closely associated with the hour in the week before they were dismissed. technique of push polling. This first appeared In the state of Queensland, your state, Madam on the Australian political landscape in the Acting Deputy President, Townsville is a port 1994 Northern Territory Election. Voters were of hard working and highly productive work- asked if they would change their vote if they ers. What did the Prime Minister say of their knew the following facts. They were then told fate? The Prime Minister was interviewed on that Territory Labor planned to introduce two A Current Affair two days after Chris sets of laws—one for blacks and another for Corrigan implemented what the government whites. The Country-Liberal Party employed thought was the final part of its grand plan to Mr Textor in the lead up to that election as a smash the MUA. He was asked about workers polling adviser. The Liberal Party also em- in ports like Burnie and Townsville and why ployed the same technique in the lead up to they were sacked along with their colleagues the Federal by-election for the seat of Can- in Sydney and Melbourne. He said: berra. Mr Textor was the pollster for the Liberal Party for the 1996 election campaign. They are all part of the one union. Last year Mr Howard, Mr Reith and Mr Guilty by association. Sharp commissioned Mr Textor to attack not This country has changed dramatically their political opponents but an industrial under the leadership of John Howard. There union. The work was channelled through the is now mistrust in the community. There is ACIL consultancy. Mr Textor then organised now a high level of insecurity about what the a number of focus groups. He showed them future might bring. Mr Howard has achieved parts of a 60 Minutes program and other all of this in just over two years. His is material designed to colour their view, includ- already a remarkable record. I, together with ing edited ‘highlights’ of an address by the many Australians, hope the legacy of this 3190 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Prime Minister, as Prime Minister, is a short Australian community a bad signal by not one. facing the cold, hard facts that a so-called The Senate would recall that the last time desirable, political objective may not always Mr Howard lost his job he mocked the sug- be lawful. That precise scenario is what the gestion of a possible return by claiming that Howard government and Patricks may be that would amount to Lazarus with a triple facing in the courts in respect of the unaccept- bypass. We now know that we have Lazarus able sudden sacking of 1,400 MUA members with a triple bypass as our Prime Minister. supposedly to achieve a more efficient water- The question that must be answered and will front. I remind the Senate that Justice Wilcox be answered, and in the hearts of many said in the appeal court ruling that noble Australians has already been answered, is: has objectives cannot be achieved by ignoble John Howard got the ticker for the job that he means. now has? The facts show that he has not. It has been argued that the shredding was Whistleblowing: Heiner Inquiry done to protect people from suing each other Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (1.14 over evidence given to the Heiner inquiry p.m.)—I rise today to talk on a matter of because of the way it was established. At first public interest affecting my state of Queens- glance this looks fair enough, but standing land that has considerable relevance to the between that objective was the lawful right of outcome of the state election. I am referring citizens to access those public records or, at to the shredding of the Heiner inquiry docu- the very least, to test that right in court ments and further evidence that has come to through judicial interpretation of the relevant light and been prominently featured in the statute. Indeed, the known would-be litigant, media in recent days. All senators know that Mr Peter Coyne, and his solicitor were de- this is a matter that I have spoken on on quite ceived by the Crown into believing that the a number of occasions. Indeed, I referred the evidence was secure while, behind the screen matter of whether or not the Criminal Justice of expectation that the Crown would act with Commission may have given false and the utmost probity, the documents were misleading evidence to the Senate select shredded to stop their use in that foreshad- committee into unresolved whistleblower owed litigation. It is my view now that we cases in 1995 to the Senate Privileges Com- should have taken greater consideration of the mittee on 5 December 1997 for further exam- views expressed by now High Court Justice ination. In making this speech, I am not Ian Callinan QC, who represented Mr showing any disrespect to the deliberations of Lindeberg, that arguably the decision to shred the Privileges Committee, but there is fresh the records seriously breached the criminal disturbing evidence relating to the shredding law. that I believe this chamber and certainly the people of Queensland ought to be aware of In moving my motion to have the and fully comprehend its significance. Lindeberg matter referred again to the Privi- Before I do that, I want to put on the public leges Committee, I indicated that it appeared record something that has personally disturbed that what was shredded was evidence of me ever since the unresolved whistleblower possible child abuse. My worst fears appear cases committee tabled its report in October to have been realised by the most extraordi- 1995. In that report we described the shred- nary of circumstances. I refer to recent head- ding as ‘an exercise in poor judgement’. I lines in the Courier-Mail of 25 May 1998 that have given that view very careful consider- former Queensland Police Commissioner Noel ation ever since and I now wish to disassoci- Newnham, a man for whom I have the great- ate myself from that description and suggest est respect, carried out a three-day investiga- that it was quite inadequate. In my opinion, tion for Mr Lindeberg into what was told to in light of the facts and the emerging evi- Mr Heiner. I remind the Senate that the dence, it was a very soft political view that current opposition leader, Mr Peter Beattie, can no longer stand. I believe that we sent our has described the Heiner inquiry as ‘a spat Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3191 between public servants’ in an attempt, I matter. Mr Newnham suggests that it is quite guess, to downplay its importance. inconceivable that the Goss government However, in his inquiry Mr Newnham would have been unaware of these allegations found that Mr Heiner was given evidence of when deciding what to do with the Heiner possible serious child abuse of detainees. He documents. found that children as young as 10 and 12 But it does not stop there. It turns out that had been handcuffed to water grates in the a youth worker who gave evidence to Mr open air all night, with one child, who was Heiner on these matters has been in contact told that snakes came out of the grate, being with the CJC since 1994 by phone—and as found the next morning with his blanket late as October 1997 in writing—wanting the stuffed down the grate because of his fear. CJC to investigate these matters. The CJC has Others, it is alleged, were handcuffed to beds dismissed his concerns, the same complaints for extended periods. It is also alleged that it now wants to investigate following the there was inappropriate use of suppressant Courier-Mail’s pressure and the intervention drugs for other than medical reasons, and that of Mr Newnham. All of a sudden the CJC there was also psychological and physical now has an interest in the matter. The CJC abuse. never told the Senate of these contacts, I want to add of course that I am not leaving us to believe that all of the Heiner apportioning blame to anyone. That needs to witnesses were relieved to see the so-called be done by a proper investigation. I am defamatory evidence destroyed. I believe that indicating, however, that very serious evi- is gross deception on the part of the CJC. dence of possible abuse was given to Mr On Monday, 25 May 1998, the CJC an- Heiner, and it was shredded. Undoubtedly, nounced that it was going to investigate these anyone accused had a right to clear their 1989-1990 complaints, after considerable names, but the electorate also has a right to media uproar. It is quite inappropriate for the know what was going on behind those closed CJC to come within cooee of this matter. It walls. The shredding prevented this. cannot assure anyone of its impartiality. The Mr Newnham points out in his report that fact that the CJC did not see any ethical or the use of excessive or unnecessary force conflict of interest barriers to its taking on the against people in lawful custody amounts to task is something of even greater concern to criminal assault. He says: me, and merely confirms that the CJC has lost In the case of minors such assaults by custodial its plot. officials, directly or indirectly, must always be I believe that the CJC is an institution regarded as extremely serious. which must remain in the state of Queensland. He further says: It is critical that it do so. But it is a patient . . . Australia has international treaty obligations that is sick. It needs to take its medicine, it regarding the treatment of people in custody and of needs to get well and then perhaps it can get children. It appears plain that officials disregarded on with the job. The problem I have is that some of those obligations. the CJC has not told the public about its He also said that it was an absurd notion to glaring ethical impediment to its involvement suggest that the Crown had to shred these now and that its deception is of the highest documents to prevent people suing each other. order. It is impossible to dissociate the shred- I happen to agree with Mr Newnham. It is ding from what was actually shredded. They absurd to suggest that the Crown cannot are both sides of the same coin. handle documents containing such evidence We have already seen what happens to and that its only remedy was to destroy them. other people who go to the CJC on matters This fresh evidence obviously opens up associated with the Heiner inquiry, and now very serious questions that, I suggest, the it is inviting more public servants to face Privileges Committee may not be able to potentially the same fate. We have seen Mr ignore, especially in the light of other revela- Lindeberg disgracefully ridiculed in public by tions involving the CJC’s handling of this the CJC over his efforts to see the truth 3192 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 emerge. I hold a genuine fear for other people time to act is long past. Justice has been who might believe that the CJC comes to this delayed for too long for people like Mr matter with clean hands for I believe they Lindeberg. The Australian Democrats have could suffer the same fate as Mr Lindeberg. continued to be the only political avenue for I am sorry to have to say that, but the CJC’s Mr Lindeberg to pursue justice in this matter. credentials in relation to the shredding and Both of the major parties have failed Queens- anything to do with the Heiner inquiry are land and Mr Lindeberg, and that failure very much in doubt. continues to this day. Mr Lindeberg made it quite plain in evi- If we condone the shredding and ignore dence to the Senate inquiry that he views the these recent revelations by further inaction, CJC’s handling of his allegations as biased dithering and dodging, it will show that we and contrived to obstruct the truth coming have lost the plot about what a decent society out. Mr Lindeberg’s serious assertions, in my means. We will have reduced ourselves to a view, should be heard by the new Parlia- state of ridicule and anarchy. This is above mentary Commissioner for the CJC, Ms Julie party politics. The Australian Democrats Dick SC, as soon as possible. demand action to get to the truth of this When this new evidence emerged in the matter immediately and in full. Courier-Mail, the Queensland Premier, Mr New South Wales Electricity Industry Borbidge, publicly suggested that barristers Messrs Morris QC and Howard had looked at Senator COONAN (New South Wales) the Newnham revelations. That is quite (1.28 p.m.)—If ever proof were needed of just untrue. Mr Morris QC has also dissociated how strong a hold the union movement has himself from the Premier’s comments. I must over the Labor Party, one need look no say that either the Premier was being unac- further than the debacle over the attempted ceptably dismissive of them or he is so privatisation of the NSW electricity industry. misinformed as to be out of his depth on this This is a matter of public importance that I matter—as he is on many matters, I might will address in this debate. add—and that is very sad indeed. The Premier The issues involved are immense. The Carr further suggested that the Newnham revela- government claims the New South Wales tions had gone to the Queensland Director of industry is worth $22 billion. However, the Public Prosecutions. That also is untrue. more realistic figure puts its value at $28 As for Mr Beattie, he wants the CJC to billion. This valuation is more realistic be- look into the matter. I am afraid that is a joke, cause it uses current Victorian sell-off prices and a sick one at that. The CJC is so compro- which have been adjusted for interest rate mised in this affair that any investigation into declines. In blunt terms, this puts the the shredding and related matters, including industry’s worth at between 15 and 20 per the fresh revelations, must include the CJC’s cent of the state’s GDP. handling of the Lindeberg allegations. At present NSW has crippling debt of Finally, the scale of the corrupt tentacles nearly $20 billion. That would be wiped out associated with the shredding is so vast and and the resultant interest savings of $720 so serious that it warrants the appointment of million a year would go to schools, hospitals, a special prosecutor who can take and hear police and other necessary services. And a evidence in public under oath and prosecute report by the Australian Council for Infra- where necessary. Really we can have nothing structure Development released only weeks less. The system itself is on trial. This matter ago says privatisation of the power industry touches the office of Governor in Council; the will create about 167,000 jobs. The study, office of Cabinet; the office of Crown Law; prepared by the National Institute of Econom- the FOI Commissioner; the Queensland audit ic and Industry Research, also points to a 10 office; the Queensland police; the CJC; senior per cent cost saving from privatisation. public servants, retired and serving; a trade The arguments for full privatisation are union; and goes as far as a credit union. The therefore compelling. The reality is that, if the Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3193 taxpayers of New South Wales knew how nment is committed to a full privatisation, the much they had at risk in the New South latest move from his bunker this month was Wales electricity industry, there would be a half-baked plan for partial privatisation of mass demonstrations calling for its privatis- the New South Wales electricity industry, ation. only, of course, if his union mates agreed to All of this must also be looked at in the it. context of the tax regime in New South Under this latest proposal only the power Wales. Since Bob Carr came to power in generators would be privatised and the electri- 1995, the state has gone from having the city distribution and retail companies would lowest tax growth rate to becoming the high- remain under public ownership. But how did est taxed state in Australia. Tax revenue has Mr Carr arrive at this bifurcated approach? risen by $2½ billion in just three years. There The answer is he was trying to appease his have been 13 tax increases, and they include union mates, those same union mates who three new taxes—one of which is the iniqui- constantly rebuff him and put at risk huge tous land tax on people living in their own sums of money which would help the people homes—that have been imposed on the of New South Wales by retiring state debt and people of New South Wales. freeing up capital for infrastructure and social During the Carr years, government expendi- projects. ture has risen unaccountably by more than 20 The latest round of privatisation talks have per cent. On top of this, Bob Carr is looking highlighted the power two right wing to a piecemeal sale of the power industry. unions—the Municipal Employees Union and Even that stalwart of the Labor Party, Graham the Electricity Trades Union—have over the Richardson, recognises the need to privatise New South Wales Labor government. The the whole industry. Writing in the Bulletin plan to sell off only the three generators for recently, he said the coalition would go into $10 billion is tailor made for the right wing the next election promising to sell off the unions as most of their members are in the six power industry. Here I quote Mr Richardson: distribution companies. What a surprise! This will enable Peter Collins, the New South The New South Wales government has Wales leader of the Opposition, to promise substan- sought to sell off the power industry and both tially lower electricity prices for businesses and right and left wing unions have bluntly told households. He will also have the luxury of decid- ing how to lavish upon the electorate something Mr Carr they will not let that happen. What like $20 billion which he will reap from carrying right they think they have to take such a out the privatisation policy already espoused by position against the public interest beggars Carr. There is now a competitive market for elec- belief. tricity in Australia and by corporatising the various entities in electricity generation and provision, New Recently, the left wing Construction, Forest- South Wales businesses are paying only 40 per cent ry, Mining and Energy Union broke off talks of what they paid for electricity when Labor came with the Carr government and walked out of to office three years ago. meetings. They took their bat and ball and This makes those entities tremendously attractive refused to play, and Mr Carr was powerless to private buyers who would vie with privately to do a thing about it. Not surprisingly, many owned competitors in Victoria. They will pay top CFMEU members are employed at the three dollar and Peter Collins will promise to retire state generators. Mr Carr is unashamedly playing debt, fix the schools, fix the hospitals, fix the union politics with one of the state’s great trains, fix the buses and put police back on the streets. Against all this, Bob Carr will offer his best assets, its power industry. wishes and his hopes that this party might one day What all this means is that New South reconsider its position. Wales is suffering accelerating losses through How humiliating for Mr Carr to have a Labor the Labor Party’s stubborn refusal to acknow- Party heavyweight publicly acknowledge the ledge the inevitability of a privatised power Premier’s impotence at the hands of the industry throughout the area covered by the unions over plans to privatise the $28 billion interconnected electricity grid. A partial power industry. Although he claims his gover- privatisation is a nonsense and simply will not 3194 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 work. However, under a New South Wales on a commercial footing. But this has stalled coalition government there will not be this because of the Carr government’s impotence. nonsense as the coalition has stated clearly and often that it will sell the power industry What the next coalition government will do as a whole. is to privatise because New South Wales needs the money and it makes good business One of the primary reasons for the sense to do so. Frankly, New South Wales has privatisation of the New South Wales electri- come to a dead end in terms of raising new city industry is to provide a capital boost for taxes, and the sale of non-core assets is the the state, as well as lower prices for consum- rational solution to this revenue crunch. ers. The capital boost of more than $20 billion will help to retire debt and rebuild the Also, there is no economic justification for state’s economy with infrastructure projects the government to run non-core assets. There that will also create jobs. are very few utilities or services that need to be run by the government to operate efficient- The real benefit is that in retiring debt, the ly and fairly and to deliver an essential privatisation of the electricity industry will service. save the New South Wales government, and therefore the people of New South Wales, The notion that governments should own $720 million in interest payments each year. utilities is largely a hangover from the now That $720 million will enable the New South defunct theory of natural monopolies. This Wales Liberal government to make significant concept refers to an industry in which techno- and lasting gains for the people of New South logical imperatives preclude competition from Wales. It will leave the state almost entirely smaller players or new entrants. Given that free of debt. That means it will leave a state only one player could gain sufficient scale in which future generations can enjoy without any one market, it was thought then desirable crippling taxes and other charges now being that that player be owned by the government, imposed upon them to pay the interest debt which could be trusted not to exploit its racked up due to years of Labor mismanage- position. ment. This is all lost on those in the Labor Party So what is it that the unions object to and who still have their head in the sand. They which tie Bob Carr’s hands? The unions have fail to realise that the privatisation of the thrown up the usual arguments of possible job electricity industry will create a number of losses and erosion of conditions as a result of utilities providing competition and better the sale. Some opposition to any sale rests service for consumers. In economic terms it purely, no doubt, on so-called ideological makes absolutely no sense to have billions of grounds, but both objections miss the whole dollars of taxpayers’ money tied up in an point. Electricity supply and generation is industry that has become highly competitive now a competitive business, and it will since it was opened up in May last year. The become more so. fact is that the government has no say in the price of electricity, which is set by market If the New South Wales electricity genera- forces. In New South Wales, the publicly tion industry is to remain competitive in the owned generators and distributors compete current deregulated market, it will need a against each other and interstate rivals to see substantial injection of funds to ensure it is in who can deliver the cheapest power. What is the race with other states. No government can happening is that, because it will not or really justify such an injection of taxpayers’ cannot sell these businesses, the New South funds and this, in itself, highlights the inevita- Wales government is unlikely to see a mean- bility of privatisation. ingful dividend from this industry for several It was the coalition government under years. So, while the government’s dividend former premiers Nick Greiner and John Fahey income from ownership diminishes, it is at that first realised this and stepped in to begin risk of losing billions of dollars of shareholder the process by putting electricity transmission value. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3195

In a report published in Company Director, period when the unions have decided to accountancy group KPMG writes that there is refuse their neighbours and their families the likely to be a large field of bidders, given the benefits to be had. Not even Mr Carr can Victorian and other recent electricity sector manage to backflip on this one, and present sales. But it warns that there are unique risks, and future generations of people in New and questions how long the current situation South Wales will only continue to be adverse- of oversupply is sustainable in the market. In ly affected. other words, the time to act is sooner rather than later. This is the point of my speech Information Superhighway today. This is highlighted by the recent Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital United Energy float in Victoria, which closed Territory) (1.42 p.m.)—In Sleepers, Wake!, three times oversubscribed. Significantly, the the Hon. Barry Jones, MP, a former Labor blueprint for the United Energy privatisation minister for science and technology, wrote closely resembles that outlined by consultants that capital, land and labour, the three factors Deutsche Morgan Grenfell to the committee of production, have been joined by a fourth: of inquiry last year into the sale of New knowledge. Information and knowledge are South Wales power assets. The Carr govern- the empowering tools of today’s society but, ment could have and should have acted then. as my colleague puts it: is this information a Separately, a KPMG analyst said that the free good? If so, what levels of responsibility longer the government waited to sell the should government take in providing an power industry, the greater the risks involved accessible information superhighway as as the assets depreciated, and international opposed to a tollway? As knowledge and interest could weaken. He said also that the information are integral factors in production, longer the government waited, the greater the control over the carriers of information be- drain on the state’s economy through interest comes increasingly paramount to our future. payments on unpaid debt. If information is a right, then access to the information highway should be freely avail- What the unions refuse to realise is that the able and affordable to everybody. window of opportunity to sell power utilities at huge prices is limited. One reason for the By contrast, there are those, like this high prices being commanded at present is government, that believe information is a that there is intense overseas interest in the private or commercial commodity that should electricity industry. Adding to their high value be sold or licensed. Whilst there are sectors are low interest rates and high market valu- that can legitimately apply an added value in ations. The shareholders are benefiting. For the transmission, it can be said that what we instance, AGL, which now owns Victoria’s are dealing with here is something that is a Solaris distributor, has seen its share price resource to this country as opposed to a surge from $8 to $12.65 in just six months. consumer commodity. By ceding control to That is a price-earning multiple change from the corporate sector the government is, in 3.7 times to 21.7. Utility stocks are on a roll effect, selling off one of the means by which across the share market, trading at a valuation all Australians can enter and participate in the multiple above ordinary industrial stocks. electronic society. But this will not last forever. When the Fair and equitable participation in this new New South Wales coalition government is paradigm of communications and information elected in March 1999, as it surely will be, sharing is something that Labor holds true to one of its first priorities will be to deliver to its philosophies and principles, but something the people of New South Wales the benefits that remains very distant from the philoso- from a full privatisation of the electricity phies being espoused by the government. As industry. It will also enable the people of the Howard government begins the process of New South Wales to share in the bonanza by selling off the remaining two-thirds of Telstra, becoming shareholders in utilities. All that is it is fundamentally important that we assess being denied to them now, during this twilight information technologies not only to find out 3196 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 where they are taking us but also to analyse of them are struggling because they are still who is being left behind. struggling just to have a standard telecom- One of the largest groups marginalised in munications or telephone service. E-mail and the IT revolution and changes to the informa- the Internet are pipedreams at the moment. tion and communication paradigm are rural Yet the Internet and enhanced information and remote Australians. If you live off the services can deliver essential information main road then you are literally out of sight about their primary industry, the weather and out of mind of this government. Likewise, reports, legal services, the stock market and the information superhighway is bypassing new product and marketing opportunities. anyone not connected to the main road. Rural With the recent developments in electronic people know only too well what it is to be commerce, being on-line means overcoming forgotten. The decline in rural banking ser- the lack of commercial and retail services that vices is just one example. One in three major rural communities and small towns cannot bank branches in rural areas closed between offer. This in turn introduces a whole range 1993 and 1996, rendering 600 rural communi- of social challenges and regional economic ties without access to proper financial institu- issues that will have to be confronted. To tions. ignore the ramifications of some of these Rural residents do not have the same access changes in this context is certainly at the to support structures that metropolitan citizens government’s peril. The principle goal of any enjoy. They must survive without the net- government should be to ensure that rural works that underpin city life. If you live on consumers and rural citizens have the same a remote or distant property you do not have telecommunications and information services the same sort of access to support or help to as city residents. manage your computer’s file management One of the more interesting developments problem or if your hard drive crashes. There in this area is the current pricing regimes generally are no local training courses, local- between the carriers providing Internet ser- ised help desks or even computer stores that vices to rural areas compared to metropolitan can offer sales and post-purchase service that areas. I watched with interest the pricing the rest of us can access quite freely. disadvantage that currently exists between the Unfortunately, it is not just rural residents two groups in this country, and relate it back who are unable to ride the superhighway. to how those rural people are, on the one Older Australians, Australians with a socio- hand, being encouraged quite stridently by economic disadvantage and, in particular, government to participate in this new on-line Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders are in revolution but, at the same time, the govern- a similar boat. Statistically, we know, as a ment is choosing to ignore the means that result of an ABS survey late last year, that they have at their fingertips to ensure price these factors are significant in explaining the equity and access equity to the services. inequities to access to the new information We often hear too from this government technologies. About 60 per cent of Australians about its commitment to small business. The on rural and remote settlements are Aborigi- recent electronic commerce summit here in nals and Torres Strait Islanders, and their Canberra highlighted access issues for small telecommunication needs are not being ad- business, particularly those in rural and dressed. regional areas. The pricing inequities that I recently came across a report that reaf- currently exist between the two metropolitan firmed that rural Australians need a world- areas and the rural areas show that Telstra at class telephone system. But they also need that time provided a significant disadvantage world-class television, radio, fax and e-mail to rural consumers. I note with interest in services and a quality postal service just to yesterday’s Australian that Telstra’s Internet remain a part of society, to have current and product, Big Pond, has joined the rush to relevant connections with society. I know provide flat rate Internet access. This is quite many rural people will laugh at this, but many an intriguing development, given that the Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3197 major carriers and certainly the major provid- of a given market. Because Australia is such ers of ISPs moved away from flat rate a big place, there are several areas in this Internet access quite early on in the develop- country which will never make money on ment of that market on the basis that industry behalf of a carrier, an Internet service provid- analysts and their own economics in provid- er or anybody else. ing that service demonstrated that that was How will the government put pressure on unviable in the long term. the various Internet service providers, for So what do we see now? We see, once example, to lower their costs for those region- again, competition perhaps playing a role in al subscribers? How will they ensure that the provision of these flat rate services, given OzEmail, Big Pond or regional ISPs actually that another provider of Internet services, want to compete in rural and remote commu- OzEmail, instituted the same regime just nities? The fundamental flaw in the recently. What we have in two major government’s plan is that that will not hap- metropolitan areas is a response from Telstra pen. The only way it can deliver a base level to a move by OzEmail to instigate, once of service is to regulate and to provide for again, a flat rate Internet access pricing compliance measures and, hopefully, penalties package. What we do not see is a rural centre that will stick. being offered the same service or the same To go back to the earlier points I made pricing regime. What we do not see are those about inequities between rural communities non-competitive areas in this country getting and metropolitan communities, and the value offered a cut-price or discount regime or of knowledge and information in our society: access to the Internet. we have a grave situation emerging where the What we do see are the metropolitan areas information poor and the information rich will that are well serviced, that have a profit be divided, not just along socioeconomic margin that is worth it for these private lines, but along geographical lines as well. At companies to actually pursue market share a time when we on this side of the chamber and to extract a profit from, being the sole are so mindful of these widening disparities, beneficiaries of the competitive pressures that these social inequities, we have a government are existing. What is happening is that rural that consistently ignores the structural ramifi- and remote Australians do not even get cations of its policies in relation to subjected to the competitive pressures that privatisation and to playing with the regula- could lower the costs that are currently being tory structures in regard to competition policy. imposed on them for Internet access. All of these arguments lead to a fairly I also note with interest media speculation straightforward message. The existence of on this specific area, where it talks about the information rich and information poor, and contemplation by the government of enhan- the widening gap between the two, is not an cing the regulatory regime to actually ensure argument in itself against the privatisation of that somehow the services are maintained to public assets. But the implications of that rural and remote Australia. This comes back policy extend far beyond economic consider- to quite a powerful contradiction that is ations and public and private revenues. They underpinning or, I suppose, upstaging to a extend far beyond a comparative benefit to large degree the government’s whole rhetoric shareholders or potential shareholders, and the about their move to full privatisation of the public interest. What they go to is how we carrier Telstra. will cohesively, as a society, progress and The government cannot guarantee the develop—how we will cohesively take advan- delivery of adequate services, either on the tage of the information revolution, this new Internet or even in telecommunications gener- paradigm that we are already embracing but ally, to rural and regional Australia without that many Australians have no opportunity to enhancing the regulatory framework to en- participate in. force it. Why? Competitive pressures do not To deal with these issues in isolation is to exist where there is no profit to be made out deliver the largest proportion of Australians 3198 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 to exclusion from these developments and Senator ELLISON—Of course, that is not changes. This, obviously, is an act of gross true. We have provided more opportunities for negligence on the part of this government. We job seekers and some three-quarters of those have seen so many examples of efforts on organisations which successfully tendered for their part to demonstrate to the Australian this—and there were 310 organisations—were community that in some way they have involved in existing programs in relation to tapped into the information revolution. job search and looking after people who are looking for work. Over half involved case We saw a very belated establishment of the management and skillshare people and 50 per National Office of Information Economy. It cent were involved in dealing with the more is now struggling to play catch-up with disadvantaged section of the job seeking critical issues that have been affecting other population. economies in other countries for a number of years. We see a conference on electronic That means that, out of the 310 organisa- commerce come over two years into the tions, a good percentage of those people who government’s term. Was it preceded by a will help people look for work have had conference on the social implications of this experience in dealing with disadvantaged information revolution? Was it preceded by a people. In that I include indigenous people, conference on just what it meant to be exclud- migrants and those people who are older. ed from the information revolution? No, When Senator Sherry looks at those figures, straight to the business aspect, straight to the he can rest assured that there are people in the economic angle. job network system who are experienced in dealing with this sector of the market. Unless this government puts people first in its consideration of information technology We have contracted with these providers to matters, these inequities will only increase. It provide jobs for the allowees, that is, those is an imperative. (Time expired) people who are eligible job seekers. They get paid when they find those people work. That Sitting suspended from 1.57 p.m. to is part of the job network system. It has also 2.00 p.m. brought into the system experienced people to assist those others whom Senator Sherry has QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE mentioned, and these people have that experi- ence. Fifty per cent of these people have Employment Services experience in dealing with disadvantaged Senator SHERRY—My question is to people, and I include in that those people who Senator Ellison, Minister for Schools, Voca- have some sort of disadvantage—such as tional Education and Training. Is it not the those who have English as their second case that job brokers like Employment Na- language, migrants, indigenous people and the tional, Drake, Mission Australia and the older cohort. Salvation Army have no legal and contractual Mr Christopher Skase obligations to help find a job for those not on benefits? Is it not also correct that for the Senator KNOWLES—Yesterday in the middle-aged unemployed the best thing is to other place the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- get them job help immediately? tion, Mr Evans, sought to evade—I am sorry, my question is actually addressed to Senator Can the minister confirm that, under the Vanstone, the Minister for Justice— government’s new system, if you are middle- aged and married, you will be denied immedi- Senator Robert Ray—I think she had a ate guaranteed free employment services and rough idea. forced to the back of the unemployment Senator KNOWLES—I am sure she did, queue? Is the minister aware that there are the moment I mentioned the first line. Yester- 400,000-plus unemployed Australians who are day in the other place the Deputy Leader of now being forced to the back of the queue by the Opposition, Mr Evans, sought to evade the new job network? responsibility for issuing Mr Skase with a Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3199 new 10-year passport by asserting that he had failed to mention section 7D of the Passports no discretion to refuse its issue. Senator Act. Senator Bolkus failed to distribute Bolkus then claimed that Mr Skase’s new 10- section 7D to the media, which entitles a year passport had been of absolutely no use minister to refuse to issue a passport if some- as it had no travel stamps or visas in it. Could body already has a valid one, unless there are the previous government have stopped Mr special reasons. Skase from getting a new 10-year passport and would Mr Skase’s new 10-year passport Mr Skase had a valid passport on which he have been of any use to him at all? could have travelled back to Australia, but of course Mr Skase told everybody he was too Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator sick to travel. What were the special reasons Knowles for her question. Yes, the previous that Mr Evans and his department accepted as government could have stopped Mr Skase being good and proper reasons to give a new getting a new 10-year passport, and yes, a 10-year passport to Mr Skase? new 10-year passport would have been of use to Mr Skase. Thirdly, section 8 of the Passports Act gives The former Senator Evans, now Deputy the minister a very broad general discretion to Leader of the Opposition, had four clear cancel a passport. Mr Downer cancelled Mr options; four discretions to stop Skase getting Skase’s passport. Why didn’t Mr Evans do a brand new passport valid until the year the same? Fourthly, Mr Evans could have 2003. He could have firstly thought about it issued a limited short-term passport for, say, for longer than two working days. He could four months and by that time possibly the have given it the attention it deserved. arrest warrants that he was seeking to have issued would have been issued. Secondly, he could have refused to issue a passport under section 7D of the Passports Here we have Mr Evans claiming that he Act. Thirdly, he could have cancelled any had no choice and that he was just the inno- passport under section 8(1) of the same act cent minister, when in fact he had four op- and, fourthly, he could have issued a new tions not to give Skase a brand new 10-year passport, a very short-term one, say for three passport. Mr Evans was the minister, and he months, or even a one-way travel document is clearly culpable. back to Australia. Of course a passport is of use to someone. Let me turn to the first issue. There is no A valid passport can be used to travel to requirement to issue a new passport in a countries where a visa is not required. So a couple of working days. The minister could stamp does not need to be put in it. But you have waited a couple of months and con- need to show that you are an Australian sidered the matter properly. This was a citizen so you do not need a stamp. You can sensitive matter. A passport alert had been use it to cash travellers cheques to buy the issued. Thousands of Australians had lost necessities of life, like a wheelchair or an their money and a minister is entitled— oxygen mask or some golf clubs. You can use indeed, obligated—to give the matter proper it to open bank accounts in Switzerland, consideration. Mr Evans admitted that the where you store all the money that you former government was trying to get arrest perhaps have taken out of Australia. You can warrants issued which would have given one use it to rent expensive properties. A passport ground for refusing the new passport. Mr has a whole range of uses— Evans could have and should have given the matter better consideration. Senator Bolkus—How did he get to Swit- zerland? Secondly, former Senator Evans and Sena- tor Bolkus have been out there claiming that Senator VANSTONE—Senator Bolkus is section 7 of the Passports Act in effect only clearly unaware of the uses of a passport. allows a minister to refuse a passport if a That is why he does not care that Labor gave warrant has been issued for the arrest of the Mr Skase a brand spanking new 10-year applicant. Now, that is just not true. They passport. It is an absolute disgrace. The 3200 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 passport could be used to identify yourself to concurrence of honourable senators, I would collect cargo—(Time expired) propose to invite the Chairman to take a seat Senator KNOWLES—Madam President, on the floor of the Senate. I ask a supplementary question. If the minister Honourable senators—Hear, hear! has time I would like to know what some of Senator Wasim Sajjad was seated accord- the other uses of the passport are that Senator ingly. Bolkus does not obviously realise. Also, given your answer, Minister, was Senator Bolkus’s QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE explanation—that Labor would have cancelled Minister for Resources and Energy: the passport if someone had suggested it to Farm Assistance Package them—a reasonable defence? Senator FAULKNER—My question is Senator VANSTONE—I read with deep directed to the Minister for Resources and regret Senator Bolkus’s press release yester- Energy. Given that the minister was not able day, when he indicated that law enforcement to answer my question yesterday regarding the authorities had never suggested the cancella- property holdings of Kiskin Ltd—I suppose tion, and if they had, he said—let me read it it is difficult to keep track of such wealth—I to you: ask: can the minister confirm that some or all If they had ever suggested to us that cancelling his of the property holdings of his Kiskin com- passport was the best way to proceed then we pany have direct or indirect links with the would have acted on their advice immediately. minister’s portfolio responsibilities for coal? What does that say? It says, ‘We didn’t have Specifically, can he confirm that Kiskin owns any ideas in our own heads as the govern- the Hillview cattle property, and can he ment.’ That is what it says. They had no confirm that this property contains significant ideas. Nothing has changed there. Then he reserves of coal deposits? When will the says that if they had thought about it, and minister acknowledge that these very real and someone had suggested it, they would have substantial conflicts of interest continue to acted without consideration. They would not damage the credibility of the government and have considered the advice; they would have the Prime Minister? done it immediately. How does that contrast Senator PARER—Senator Faulkner kicks with what Senator Bolkus said in the past? off these questions with statements that are Listen to this. This is Senator Bolkus: incorrect. I do not have a company called And what really grates with me is that the Prime Kiskin, never have had a company called Minister is basically making the bureaucrats take Kiskin. As has been disclosed— the rap for a decision that his own minister could Senator Conroy—Is it your family trust? very well have taken. Senator PARER—the family trust, which Senator Bolkus knows that this is the decision has been legally moved across to the family that Mr Evans could have and should have where it operated for about the last two or taken and did not, and now he is trying to say three years or more, had an interest in that of that the bureaucrats did not suggest it. (Time two per cent. Part of that process was that expired) Kiskin, which was really owned by the four DISTINGUISHED VISITORS major shareholders of the company, had its assets outside coalmining leases. This includ- The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw the ed a range of things, like the housing I men- attention of honourable senators to the pres- tioned yesterday. It also in the process—I ence in the chamber of a parliamentary think the time was about 1993—acquired a delegation from the Islamic Republic of cattle property. Pakistan, led by the Chairman of the Senate, Senator Wasim Sajjad. On behalf of honour- Senator Conroy—What about Kiskin unit able senators, I have pleasure in welcoming trusts? you to the Senate. I trust that your visit will Senator PARER—What are you taking be both informative and enjoyable. With the about, you galah? Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3201

It acquired a cattle property, and it operated title. I ask the minister: what is the effect of as a cattle property. Since the time that I native title on the gold industry, particularly resigned as Chairman of QCMM I have no on jobs and investment? knowledge whatsoever of the ongoing owner- ship—of what Kiskin owns or what it does Senator PARER—I am pleased to report not own. that my colleague Senator Crane and I had a Senator FAULKNER—I ask a supple- meeting yesterday with the high level working mentary question, Madam President. Given group on gold which came out of a very that the Minister for Resources yesterday successful gold round table held earlier this admitted that he owned through Kiskin a year. The meeting was once again an oppor- number of residential properties used to house tunity to speak frankly about the issues workers and contractors in his own coal mine, confronting the gold industry at this time and namely Jellinbah, is that the real reason that develop joint strategies to address these the minister did not fully declare his property issues. The meeting heard of the gold low holdings through Kiskin? When can the price and some uncertainty, particularly in parliament, Minister, expect a full and truthful respect of Korea, which is placing substantial disclosure of all your conflicts of interest, pressure on exploration and new supply. shares and property? When will the minister do the right thing by his colleagues and by There was also general acknowledgment of his mate the Prime Minister and resign? the need for targeted consultation on a num- ber of key issues. By far the most significant Senator PARER—We have Senator issue raised was the effect of native title and Faulkner regurgitating this over and over their palpable anger with the Labor Party. For again. There has been no conflict of interest. example, in Western Australia the average You have shown no conflict of interest, and time now taken for the grant of a mining no potential for the conflict of interest. Here lease is more than double that of 1994-95 and you are asking me to run out individual many of the applications have now been properties. I suppose you want to know the outstanding for more than two years. Delays names of the people who live in the houses. in granting exploration titles are being experi- The actual assets themselves could well have enced across the whole country, particularly been held by QCMM. If they were, you are Queensland, Western Australia and parts of saying you want nominated what piece of New South Wales. They place an enormous machinery. I am sure that pieces of machinery burden on the nation. They increase costs to up there would be worth more than a house. industry, costs to government and administra- This is just rubbish stuff coming again from tion, and costs arising from court actions. The Senator Faulkner. Full disclosure has been bottom line is they cost jobs. Again, in made. There has been no conflict of interest. Western Australia over 4,000 mining lease As I said to Senator Robert Ray yesterday, applications cannot be granted because they you are flogging a dead horse. Full disclosure are held up in the native title process, while has been made. in Queensland there are 700 applications for exploration permits and over 400 applications Gold Industry: Native Title for mining titles currently held up as a result Senator O’CHEE—My question is also to of the Native Title Act and the Wik decision. the Minister for Resources and Energy but, by Yet, the Labor Party continues to frustrate the contrast, it is actually about an issue of government’s sensible and fair proposals for national significance. I ask the minister amendments to the Native Title Act. This has whether he is aware that the Australian gold not gone un-noticed in the community. Writ- industry, particularly in Western Australia and ing in the latest annual report, Mr Ryan, the Queensland, is under significant pressure as President of the Association of Mining and a result of two factors, one of which is the Exploration Companies—which, I might falling gold price and the other is the current remind the Senate, represents the battlers in impasse in the Senate in relation to native the industry—made a statement which sena- 3202 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 tors will want to listen to, particular the relation to the effect on jobs. I am concerned Western Australians. He said: about jobs in North Queensland amongst The federal Labor opposition has lost its way on Aboriginal communities. I ask the minister native title and has been remarkably recalcitrant in whether he is aware of a further legal chal- addressing the nation’s interests, rather than matters lenge to the construction of the Gregory River of ideology and short-term political gain. Bridge and what effect that would have on the Labor is also speaking with forked tongue. It construction of the Century mine and jobs? cannot be trusted. Last year, Senator Crane Senator PARER—It is a great disappoint- and I went to Kalgoorlie, but just before we ment that native title issues are again imped- arrived there, guess who was there? Mr ing the Century Zinc project, following the Beazley and Mr Smith were there and do you successful completion of earlier protracted know what they told the miners? They said negotiations which senators will recall includ- they could relax because they were going to ed the Hon. Bill Hayden, ex-Governor-Gener- support our native title amendments. That is al, who made scathing remarks about the what the miners told us. What hypocrisy. Native Title Act. The construction of the They either misled the miners or they were Gregory River Bridge is essential to ensure rolled by the left, Senator Faulkner. access to the Century mine in the wet season. Madam President, do you know what they Because of the legal vulnerability of agree- have done in Queensland because there is a ments made under the Native Title Act, this state election on? They have told their shad- $1.2 billion project has again been called into ow ministers that any statements on native question, even though it is widely supported title will have to be cleared through Wayne by the local Aboriginal people and has re- Swan. The Labor Party is unfairly penalising ceived native title clearance to proceed. The Queensland and Western Australia and it must current obstacles reinforce the government’s take responsibility for the effect native title is view that the passage of the Native Title having, creating the continuing uncertainty Amendment Bill 1997 [No. 2] is essential to which will have disastrous medium- to long- secure agreed arrangements such as the term effects— Century proposal. It is yet another example of Senator Faulkner—Goebbels running the the inability of Labor senators opposite to put biggest clearing house in Queensland. aside politics and consider the national inter- est, the interests of pastoralists, the interests The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, you of miners—particularly small miners—and the are sitting with your back to me, which is not local Aborigines, who have much to gain really polite, and so is Senator Hill— from this project. (Time expired) Opposition senators interjecting— Employment Services The PRESIDENT—The statement I made was, ‘Senator Faulkner, you are sitting with Senator WEST—My question is addressed your back to me as is Senator Hill,’—and if to the Minister representing the Minister for you had not shouted so much, you might have Employment, Education, Training and Youth heard it. I resent your sitting with your back Affairs. Has the minister been informed of the to me shouting, either of you. chaos in Katoomba in the electorate of Mac- quarie where, despite promises, there is no Senator PARER—The ALP must take government jobs agency available? Is the responsibility for the continuing uncertainty minister aware that the CES office has shut which will have disastrous medium- to long- and has a sign on the door telling job seekers term effects in a reduction in exploration, no to trudge half a kilometre away to what is additional exports, no additional jobs in now a non-existent Employment National mining and no additional jobs in associated office, hidden up a flight of stairs in a dingy manufacturing—(Time expired) building? Is the minister aware that when an Senator O’CHEE—Madam President, I ask Employment National office finally opens in a supplementary question. I am indebted to Katoomba, it will only be available on Wed- the minister for his answer, particularly in nesdays from 9.30 a.m. until 3.30 p.m.? Can Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3203 the minister explain how this is an improve- Senator Carr—It is a decline—in real ment on the old CES, which was open and terms. available to the people of Katoomba five days Senator ELLISON—Through you, Madam a week? President, I say to Senator Carr that we have Senator ELLISON—I will certainly look an increase on Labor’s last year of $382 into the point that Senator West raises. While million for the government sector this year I am answering this question, can I just say and, when you bring in the non-government that there are some 1,400 sites which have re- sector, it is more than $500 million. That placed 296 sites formerly run by the CES so, includes added incentives for things like across Australia, there is a many-fold increase numeracy, literacy, civics in schools, the in the number of sites available to job seek- discovering democracy project and VET in ers. In relation to the particular instance schools—which is a new initiative which I Senator West has raised, I will look into that. note the Leader of the Opposition certainly did not mention when he addressed the AEU Education: Funding conference in New South Wales on the Senator ALLISON—My question is ad- weekend. It is a very important issue which dressed to the Minister for Schools, Voca- directly touches on at least 70 per cent of tional Education and Training. I refer to the Australia’s school children. longstanding claim by Dr Kemp that govern- I would say to you, Senator Allison through ment schools would receive $2.3 billion more you, Madam President, is that you want to in the four years to the year 2000 than if the look more to what this government is doing funding was held at 1996 levels. On 5 March, by its new incentives and its new programs, Dr Kemp said in parliament that this was $2 and tell the people of Australia what the billion—a reduction of $300 million, or 13 Democrats are going to do. What are you per cent. Minister, yesterday you said there going to offer the students of Australia? would be an extra $382 million a year spent Where are your policies for school programs? on government schools. Australian parents are What are you going to do in relation to having difficulty believing the claims you numeracy and literacy? I would ask the make about increased spending on govern- Democrats what they are going to do about ment schools at any time. Is Dr Kemp wrong, vocational education and training in schools. or how do you explain the disappearance of The silence is deafening. $300 million? Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I Senator ELLISON—What I said yesterday ask a supplementary question. I did not get was that the increase for government schools the figures wrong. I am quoting Dr Kemp, over previous expenditure was $382 million who has talked about $2.3 billion but, on 5 this year, not per year. I think Senator Allison March, he revised this to $2 billion. I am has got that wrong for a start. In relation to asking you what happened to the $300 Dr Kemp’s figure, he no doubt was referring million. On the point of the question to me to over a period of time and not in one about what the Democrats would do, may I particular year, so you cannot compare the suggest that the minister might himself have figure that I mentioned yesterday with Dr attended the education conference last week- Kemp’s. What I can tell you is that the end, then perhaps he would have known. minister for education in New South Wales is However, can I suggest that this may be a certainly spreading a case of distortion and case of $2.3 billion being a rubbery figure in misconception when he says that we are the first place. Doesn’t the real figure—that cutting expenditure to schools in Australia. is, the $2 billion—mean that any increase is Senator Carr—In real terms that is right. just inflation and that, per capita, private Senator ELLISON—No, it is not. Totally, school funding is still increasing at a faster we are spending $382 million for the govern- rate than that for government schools? ment sector and, in total for all schools, over Senator ELLISON—I might Senator $500 million more this year. Allison of her use of figures when she talked 3204 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 about the 1996 unemployment figures for Resources and Energy is just not credible Bendigo. Senator Allison said that there was because of the minister’s well-known conflicts increasing rate of unemployment in Bendigo, of interest with his private shares and property which put it at the lower end of the scale. interests in coal? Doesn’t the Prime Minister’s When you look at more recent figures— action in relation to ethanol funding add Senator Allison—Madam President, I raise further weight to the clear impression that the a point of order as to relevance. I did not Howard government Minister for Resources raise questions about unemployment. and Energy has no credibility on any re- sources matter whatsoever? In light of this Senator ELLISON—On the point of order: fact, isn’t it totally impossible for the minister Senator Allison has called into question the to properly carry out his duties as minister? use of figures by Dr Kemp and me. As part of my answer, I am referring to her lack of Senator PARER—Madam President, isn’t credibility in the use of figures. I think that is it extraordinary? Here we have these wild directly relevant. statements coming in about ethanol funding. The PRESIDENT—There certainly was a Senator Stott Despoja interjecting— lot in that question other than question. There was a lot of comment and it is difficult to Senator PARER—A good interjection from suggest to the minister that he cannot make over there, Senator. This has been canvassed comment. I would ask you primarily to adhere at great length. There were two parts to the to answering the question, Senator. ethanol funding scheme. I will talk about the Senator ELLISON—On the basis that substantive parts of it. One was a subsidy Senator Allison has been the source of unreli- paid on ethanol itself which was to go to two able figures in the past, I would say that what groups, one in Mackay and the other one in she needs to do is to have a look at the Manildra. The other one was a contribution of positives of this government in relation to its moneys to an ethanol pilot plant to handle the educational program, particularly in relation production of woody wastes. to government schools and our increased The second one is, I think, the one Senator funding thereof. When I see what the Demo- Conroy is referring to. I do not think Senator crats have to offer in relation to the schools Conroy knows, Madam President, but at least of Australia, I will take them a bit more the Democrats are aware of this, and I think seriously. Senator Brown is too. But Senator Conroy has Minister for Resources and Energy no idea. He just wants to get up there and make these sorts of remarks that he has been Senator CONROY—My question is to the trained to make by the organ-grinder up the Minister for Resources and Energy. Can the back, Senator Robert Ray. minister confirm that formal responsibility for federal government funding— Senator Conroy—Yes or no? Do you have Government senators interjecting— responsibility or not? The PRESIDENT—Order! Order on my Senator PARER—You should read former right! Senator Parer is entitled to hear the Senator Richardson’s book, Senator Conroy. question. I was interested in it because I could not help Senator CONROY—I will start again. Can but notice—I read it the other day—that he the minister confirm that formal responsibility described his old tennis playing mate, Senator for federal government funding for alternative Robert Ray, as the most vicious man he ever energy sources such as ethanol production has met in parliament. Old Sid Vicious over there, been removed from the minister’s duties by Madam President. the Prime Minister? Can the minister also The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator, I invite confirm that this action has been taken be- your attention to the question. cause of the continuing public perception that any statement or decision by the Minister for Senator Conroy interjecting— Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3205

The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Senator Schacht interjecting— Conroy, you can have a supplementary ques- The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator tion if need be. Schacht. Senator PARER—I do not think Senator Honourable senators interjecting— Conroy knows, but I think he is talking about the pilot plant. That was an amount of money The PRESIDENT—Order! There are of $2 million that was set aside to build a senators on both sides shouting across the pilot plant in conjunction with equal amounts chamber. You are in breach of the standing of money put up by industry and, I think, if orders and it is almost impossible to hear— my memory is correct—I stand to be cor- and I am sure those at the end of the chamber rected on that—something from New South cannot hear—Senator Parer’s answer. Wales. That program remains in place. Senator PARER—In the 1996 budget, Senator Faulkner—You wouldn’t know bearing in mind we inherited the Beazley $10 what you’re doing; you’re too busy counting billion deficit, which people on the other side your money. denied for 2¼ years, one of the programs that fell out was the $20 million ethanol bounty. Senator PARER—Which Pacific island are There was a departmental review of that you going for a holiday on, Senator? bounty—as the Democrats would know, Honourable senators interjecting— because at least they raised it in estimates, The PRESIDENT—Order! There is too which people in the Labor Party did not—and much intervention in the chamber. Senators we found that it could not be justified on on both sides will cease interjecting. environmental or economic grounds at that Senator PARER—The program to build a time. pilot plant has been continued in the last Australian Broadcasting Corporation budget and as far as I know it is going ahead. Senator BROWN—My question is to the I do not know what Senator Conroy is talking Minister for Communications, the Information about in saying it has been taken from my Economy and the Arts who seems to be responsibility. My understanding is that it has making a welter of pressure on the ABC in not. But, if it has, it is something that will be recent times. Is the minister aware of threats done in conjunction with me and Senator Hill. to the ABC of legal action by mining or Senator CONROY—Minister, isn’t this logging corporations— conflict of interest and your inability to make an unbiased decision on funding for the Senator Abetz—Hope so. ethanol program the very reason for the Senator BROWN—The senator opposite complaining letter sent to you by your col- says, ‘Hope so.’ I hope not to the govern- league the member for Gilmore, Joanna Gash, ment—including threats involving intimida- on 13 August 1996? Wasn’t the member for tion with a view to achieving censored or Gilmore wasting her time drawing your biased reporting? What has been the cost to attention to the moral dimension of reneging the ABC and the public purse of meeting such on agreements? When will the minister corporate threats? Moreover, what compe- acknowledge, as the colleagues surrounding titions, prizes or other incentives to listeners him have known for some time, that he is an have been used by ABC radio commentators absolute liability for the government and for in Tasmania or elsewhere to foster the inter- his mate the Prime Minister? ests of industrial logging? Are such promo- Senator PARER—Again Senator Conroy tions consistent with an unbiased ABC? has got the whole matter totally confused. Senator ALSTON—I am sure Senator That is not surprising; he has got a confused Brown has got a fevered knowledge of these little acolyte brain anyway. I think he is now issues, but they have not been brought to my talking about the ethanol bounty, which has attention. They certainly were not canvassed been abandoned. It was a program that was with me by the ABC, either at any time prior abandoned— to my meeting with the board this morning or 3206 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 during the course of that meeting. To ask Brown’s identity crisis. If he does want whether there is any cost to the taxpayer or intensive counselling then I am sure there are the budget as a result of measures that the plenty of people available to help him. Can I ABC has to take to somehow ensure that it is simply suggest that if he wants a dry run as not subject to pressure from mining and a minister, what he ought to do is actually sit logging interests, all I can say is that assumes down and write a letter to the ABC, or even that such pressure is there and that the ABC pick up a telephone, and ask them what the is actually responding in the way that Senator facts are. Brown suggests. So I have no knowledge of Senator Brown—Why don’t you? any threats. Nothing has been brought to my attention. If there is something happening in Senator ALSTON—Because no-one has the bowels of Tasmania that has got Senator brought it to my attention. If you think I am Brown excited then I assume that he will going to proceed on the basis of what you say probably bring it to my attention in due in this place somehow constitutes a factual course. statement, then I can assure you that I have better things to do with my time. If you Senator BROWN—I ask a supplementary ascertain the facts and you present them— question, Madam President. I ask the minister: will he investigate whether the ABC has been Senator Forshaw interjecting— subject to such threats by mining and logging Senator ALSTON—I will tell you short- corporations, what action has been taken and ly—you may then be in a position to say that what the cost of meeting those threats has there is a requirement for further action to be been? Secondly, will he investigate whether taken in a formal sense. But do your home- there have been incentives given to listeners work first, get hold of the facts, see if there in the promotion of industrial forestry in really is an issue, and then we might be able Tasmania or elsewhere? to help you later. (Time expired) Senator ALSTON—One of the joys of being an Independent senator or a senator Trusts: Taxation from a minority party is that you have abso- Senator COOK—My question is to the lutely no prospect of ever having formal Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp. Isn’t it responsibility, but maybe Senator Brown true that the Australian Taxation Office has could have a trial run. found that around 100,000 trusts have de- Senator Brown—I rise on a point of order, clared $26 billion in income, yet claimed $1 Madam President. As Senator Alston knows billion in losses? Isn’t it also the case that the full well, I am not an Independent senator. I vast majority of trusts were established to represent the Australian Greens, Madam avoid paying tax? Why is it that the govern- President. ment continues to shy away from forcing high-wealth individuals who use trusts, such The PRESIDENT—He did refer to Inde- as Senator Parer, to pay their fair share of pendents or minor parties. taxation? Senator Abetz—I rise on a point of order, Senator KEMP—Thank you for that Madam President. Senator Brown has just question, Senator Cook. In relation to the misled the Senate because on the Tasmanian particular statistics you quoted, you would ballot paper he was registered as a Tasmanian appreciate the fact that I would always want Green, yet whenever he comes up here he to check them carefully, particularly as they tries to parade himself as an Australian Green. come from you, Senator Cook. I will check You had better make up your mind. those figures to see whether the matters you The PRESIDENT—There is no point of stated are in fact correct. order. In relation to trusts generally, Senator Cook, Senator ALSTON—Madam President, we you will be aware there has been a very may be accused of many things but I do not prolonged debate in this chamber on trusts, think we can do much to help resolve Senator trust losses and the taxation of trusts. It was Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3207 intriguing to us all that suddenly the Labor Senator Conroy interjecting— Party, after 13 years in office, discovered that Senator KEMP—Senator Conroy jumps up from their point of view there were some and down and whips himself into a lather but problems with trusts. I suspect that if we if I remember, Senator Conroy, you voted to looked we would find that a great number of pass that bill, so why you are getting yourself the trusts were established during Labor’s into a lather, I simply do not know. In rela- term of office. It has to be admitted that right tion to the overall issue of the taxation of at the last moment the Labor Party came to trusts, again, as has been stated on quite a the conclusion that they were a bit concerned number of occasions, that has been folded about certain aspects of the taxation trusts. into the wider issue of tax reform, which the Can I also say, Senator Cook— government will be making announcements The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, would about in due course. you address the chair. Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam a supplementary question. Thank you, President. Looking at the general issue of the Minister, for that smear—inaccurate and taxation of high-wealth individuals, we note misleading though it be. But you did evade on this side that the Labor Party during its the question I asked you, and you might term of office opened up a number of major direct your attention to answering it. Why is loopholes in the tax act which to many indi- it that the government continues to shy away viduals made the paying of tax almost op- from forcing high wealth individuals who use tional. Let me instance one scheme of which trusts, such as Senator Parer, to pay their fair you have been a very strong supporter, Sena- share of tax? Would you answer that question, tor Cook—R&D syndicates. You were a Minister? While you are at it, can you also strong supporter when they were brought in answer this question: will you assure the by the Labor Party and, Senator Cook, you Senate that the reason Mr Howard refuses to opposed this government’s attempt to close up move on trusts is not that he is protecting the that particular scheme. Of course, when this vested interests of Senator Parer and the other was brought into the chamber, the Labor 19 trust owning members of his frontbench? Party certainly opposed it. Will you do that? Will you just answer the questions put, for a change? The Labor Party has opposed a number of other tax loophole and equity measures that Senator KEMP—I answered the question this government has brought in. It will not that was put to me. You asked me about the surprise you to know that I recall that the taxation of trusts, and I mentioned that a bill Labor Party opposed in this chamber the had recently passed through this parliament in superannuation surcharge. That is what they relation to trust losses. You asked me what opposed. we are doing about it and I said, ‘Weren’t you in the chamber when we had that major Senator Sherry—Tax! debate? Weren’t you aware of the wider Senator KEMP—So I would have to say debate in the community on that issue?’ In that, after the 13 years in office in which the the drafting of that question, you seem to Labor Party left the tax system in a dreadful have completely forgotten that there was a state of repair and in which the Labor Party bill in relation to trust losses which went had opened up some major loopholes in tax through this parliament. system, of which R&D syndicates were In relation to my alleged smear of you, if certainly one, it is passing strange indeed, you did not support R&D syndicates, if you Senator Cook, that you would have the gall did not oppose our measures on that, stand up to get up and ask that question. In relation to and correct the record. But you have never trust losses, you will be aware that a bill was done it, because you did support R&D syndi- passed through this parliament and, again, I cates. So it was no smear; it was dead accu- think in the end the Labor Party supported rate. Of course, having complained about that bill. In the end, you voted for it. what you say was a smear against you, which 3208 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 in fact was accurate information, then you Schacht might ever one day have any degree attempted to smear large numbers of people of responsibility for the ABC. on this side of the parliament—and, I might Honourable senators interjecting— say, a few on your own. (Time expired) Senator ALSTON—I do not think it was Australian Broadcasting Corporation even more than a fleeting suspicion— Senator SANDY MACDONALD—My The PRESIDENT—Senator Alston, just a question is addressed to the Minister for moment. Communications, the Information Economy Honourable senators interjecting— and the Arts, Senator Alston. The minister met today with the board of the ABC to The PRESIDENT—Order! discuss matters of broadcasting significance. Senator Schacht interjecting— Will the minister inform the Senate of any outcomes from these discussions? Does the The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, you government remain committed to a strong, have been interjecting throughout the answer independent, balanced and, most importantly, to this question— impartial ABC? Senator Schacht—He is telling lies. Senator ALSTON—Yes, indeed, I did have The PRESIDENT—You will have your a very significant meeting with the ABC opportunity to speak later. board this morning, and we did canvass a Senator ALSTON—I didn’t see you there. number of issues. I elaborated on some Madam President, as I have indicated, normal concerns that I had previously expressed in transmission was quickly resumed and I was writing about ABC coverage, particularly in able to have a very useful discussion with the relation to the waterfront, and I provided them ABC board, in the course of which I did put with some other matters that I think are to them a number of approaches that I thought worthy of further consideration. I also can- might actually help to strengthen the ABC in vassed an alternative approach to the investi- the eyes of the general community in terms of gation and consideration of complaints which ensuring that it is seen to be able to meet the would involve a much more proactive ap- highest standards of accuracy and impartiality. proach. There was one matter that I did think In particular, I referred them to the BBC’s to be of particular concern, and that was to royal charter, which includes a statement of assure the ABC that the government recog- promises to viewers and listeners, setting out nised that the ABC has statutory independ- services and standards that viewers and ence in terms of programming, but that, as I listeners can expect each year. I also pointed put to them— out that the governors of the BBC state that Senator Schacht—Not the way you do it; the new charter has more specific provisions you accuse them first then write to them. relating to the governors’ responsibility— Senator ALSTON—My principal witness Senator Schacht—Are you going to amend in this regard was Senator Schacht. I said the charter? there was bipartisan support for the proposi- The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator tion that the government of the day had not Schacht, I am warning you to cease interject- only a duty, but indeed an obligation to raise ing. matters of bias with the ABC. Senator Patterson—Madam President, I Senator Schacht interjecting— raise a point of order. I was not going to The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht! interrupt Senator Alston, but now that he has been interrupted by Senator Schacht’s inter- Senator ALSTON—When I mentioned jections, I point out that on two occasions Senator Schacht’s name, there was a deafen- when he was interjecting Senator Schacht said ing silence. It seemed to me that they were that Senator Alston had told lies. I ask you to simply shuddering at the prospect that Senator ask him to withdraw it. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3209

The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, if you It was a very important meeting. The made those statements, I ask you to withdraw government is very much committed to them. ensuring that the ABC is strong, independent, Senator Schacht—At your request, Madam balanced and impartial. I note that the Friends President, I withdraw, but the minister is of the ABC think that the ALP has been silent actually— and has avoided a commitment to the ABC since the 1980s. That is what they say in their The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht! newsletter when they point out that Senator Senator Schacht—The minister is taking— Schacht has remained particularly quiet. All I can say is that we are very committed to The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, there ensuring that we have the best possible is an opportunity for you to debate this matter outcomes. (Time expired) and you may do it at the appropriate time. Senator Schacht—I withdraw, but the Senator SANDY MACDONALD—I ask minister is exaggerating and making points a supplementary question, Madam President. that cannot be verified. Regional areas have voiced great concern about the proposed changes to ABC coverage Senator ALSTON—You think an exagger- of racing. Did you raise this matter with the ation is the same as a lie, but I can assure you ABC, and did you receive any encouragement there is a difference. If you really want to do in that regard? something after question time, that is the time to do it. Senator ALSTON—I did raise that matter, Senator Schacht interjecting— and I did point out that there was a consider- able degree of concern. I have already written The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, I twice to the ABC, but I said that I expected— have warned you to cease interjecting. Senator ALSTON—At the same time, you Senator Carr—Trying to intimidate them. might explain to the Senate why you leaked a copy of that Senate report on Telstra to Senator ALSTON—No, not at all, Senator Steve Lewis of the Australian Financial Carr. We know your definition of quiet Review. Madam President, the BBC also has persuasion. The most extraordinary episode a very important arms-length approach in that I have come across in relation to the terms of editorial policies. They have an ABC in the last 24 hours is the press release editorial policies unit and a program com- by Senator Schacht referring to Mr Kennett’s plaints unit, each of which provides for an inquiry as bizarre. He ends up saying: overall approach to be taken by management at the same time that those who are in arms- Why doesn’t Mr Kennett speak strongly and length positions are able to pass independent directly to the Minister for Communications, or judgment. don’t members of the Liberal Party in Victoria speak to each other? They also have independent advisory panels which review program performance and The fact is that I have spoken to Mr Kennett quality, with some 50 outside experts being about this twice in the last week. This is the involved in that exercise. I did suggest that bloke who has not spoken a word in years to the ABC might find that model was one that the bloke sitting next to him and, if you asked could be adapted here in order to provide Senator Quirke, he has nothing to say to him greater objectivity and a more regular and at all. So, in terms of talking to people in ongoing analysis of implementation of the your own state, it is no wonder that Bob guidelines. I also pointed to the national McMullan has been wandering around taking media archive, which is an experiment in a very keen interest in the communications Canada which I think does provide a very portfolio, because he knows that you will not sensible basis for trying to achieve some be troubling the scorers for much longer on objectivity of measurement. that account. 3210 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Minister for Resources and Energy: after three years which has been applauded by Farm Assistance Package everyone, including, I might say to Senator Senator MURPHY—My question is to the Murphy, the rural industry. They are very Minister representing the Minister for Primary supportive of the efforts by Minister Anderson Industries and Energy. Is the minister aware in tackling the very serious problems. We of recent media comments on the govern- have removed a $10.3 billion deficit over ment’s Agriculture—Advancing Australia three years and converted it to a $2.7 billion package and concerns from accountants that surplus, without any tax increases. Has the farmers who access the farm retirement Labor Party taken any interest in this? Have scheme could be subject to substantial capital they asked any questions about that? This gains and income tax liabilities? Can the min- mob over here left us with a $96 billion debt. ister inform the Senate of government plans We have reduced that $96 billion debt by $31 to correct these flaws in the program, or is the billion. minister not able to comment on this farm Opposition senators interjecting— assistance plan because of his own holding in The PRESIDENT—Order! The level of a farming property in the Banana Shire, albeit intervention in the chamber is unacceptable. that it is held for the valuable coal deposits Senator PARER—This government has underneath it? Or would the minister be con- reduced interest rates to a level never seen cerned about the perception of a conflict of since about 1969. Interest rates have been interest in considering the tax implications of reduced to the extent that a family having a this program, given that the public are well $100,000 mortgage is now $5,000 a year aware of the tax manipulation and avoidance better off, after tax, than under the previous techniques practised by his family trusts and government. We have had the lowest inflation coal companies while he was chairman of the in decades. board? Senator Faulkner—We’re asking you Senator PARER—We have the gall of about conflict of interest. someone like Senator Cook getting up here and talking about smears. We have had a Senator PARER—When we get to the series of questions this time which bear no rural side—and this is the basis of the ques- relationship to the running of this country, to tion asked by Senator Murphy, not the smear the good government of this country or to the stuff that we are all sick of and the public is economic affairs of this country. There have sick of—from a rural perspective we have been a series of statements and I suggest, been confronting very major problems in the Madam President, that it may be worth while Asian financial meltdown, which is probably looking at the sorts of questions that are the biggest meltdown in the history of Asia. asked, because they are statements and not Has anyone asked any questions about that? questions. They are incorrect statements. We Has anyone asked any questions of me repre- had, for example, Senator Murphy just then senting the department of primary industry? talking about avoidance. Let me make the No. Not one single question on the things that position absolutely clear: I have never deliber- are important; not one single question on the ately avoided paying tax in my whole life and job creation that is being pushed by Senator I do not intend to start now. Anderson, and by me, I might say. I am surprised at you, Senator Murphy. I One of the things that was said to me by a know that you are being prompted by the Sid very senior minister from the previous Viciouses of this world in asking these ques- government was, ‘No-one on the Labor side tions. will ever understand the mining industry.’ You can get up here and you can make these Senator Conroy interjecting— smears, but let me tell you that every time Senator PARER—There is the acolyte over you do the resources industry gives me more there. He is part of it. Let us get this thing and more support. Just keep going. When you straight. It is quite extraordinary, isn’t it? knock on the doors at this coming election— Here we have a budget that has come down and I challenge you to talk to the people in Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3211 the mining areas—you will get your just absolutely no substance to it—never was, desserts. (Time expired) never will be—because all he wanted to do Senator MURPHY—Madam President, I was to raise that as sort of a trick. It is an old ask a supplementary question. Obviously, Senator Ray type trick. We are all used to from that non-answer, one has to assume that them. We have seen the old Sid Vicious on you take the view that you cannot comment the other side in action again in recent days. and you do have a concern about the public Senator Faulkner—If you contest the next perception. Is the minister aware of the social election, you’ve had it. security anomalies currently contained within the farm assistance package? Can the minister Senator PARER—The old frogmouth owl inform the Senate what action the government at it again. I do not believe there is any plans to remove these anomalies from the substance at all to what Senator Murphy said scheme? Or can you not comment on these in his question in the first place. It was just a anomalies because of your well-known dodgy set-up question. I will refer it to the minister pension scheme operated through QCMM and if there is a response I will give it to you. (ESP) Pty Ltd, which was closed down by the Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that Labor government? further questions be placed on the Notice Senator Hill—Madam President, I raise a Paper. point of order. He knows that that is unpar- liamentary and it should be withdrawn. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT The PRESIDENT—Would you withdraw NOTICE that imputation against the senator? Aboriginal Housing Senator Faulkner—Madam President, on that point of order, I would not have thought Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister the words ‘dodgy pension scheme’ were for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander unparliamentary. A couple of days ago we Affairs) (3.03 p.m.)—Yesterday Senator Neal had the extraordinary situation where you asked me a question about indigenous hous- ruled out my use of the words ‘lame duck’ as ing. I wish to add further to that as time had being unparliamentary. ‘Dodgy’ has not been expired. Expenditure on housing and infra- ruled out on previous occasions. structure over the years 1995-96 to 1997-98 was reduced as a result of the 1996-97 budget The PRESIDENT—It was not ‘dodgy’ on to a new base of $210 million. Since then the its own, it was the whole phrase and the base has been maintained, after allowance for manner in which it was directed personally. one-off adjustments in each year. What I said Senator Murphy, I ask you to withdraw. yesterday was perfectly correct. In respect of Senator MURPHY—I withdraw the word the 1998-99 ATSIC budget for housing and ‘dodgy’ if that is the offending word. infrastructure, there has been a slight reduc- The PRESIDENT—It was the phrase. tion from 1997-98— Senator MURPHY—I will rephrase it. Or Senator Forshaw—A slight reduction? can you not comment on these anomalies Senator HERRON—wait until you hear because of your well-known, well-documented the rest of the answer—as a result of the pension scheme operated through QCMM government redirecting $5 million to the (ESP) Pty Ltd, which was closed down by a TSRA for housing and infrastructure. On the Labor government? question of the ATSIC home loans program Senator PARER—With regard to the expenditure, the figure quoted $38.2 million question on social security, I have to say to is a conservative estimate. It is a self-funded you that I would guess this is a typical Labor program and expenditure depends on receipts Party tactic. They have made up the first part from loan repayments and loan discharges. I of the question, which I am happy to refer am advised the estimate could be as high as back to Minister Anderson. I am sure there is $44 million. 3212 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON (b) how many were leased. NOTICE (2) For each of the leased sites: (a) in which State and suburb/town is the site located; (b) what Question No. 864 is the unexpired period of the lease, (c) what is the lettable space involved; and (d) what is Question No. 1168 the cost of the unexpired period of the lease or of buying out the lease. Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister (3) For each of the owned sites, if any, what does for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander HIC intend to do with the site. Affairs) (3.04 p.m.)—At the end of question SENATOR HERRON—The Acting Minister for time yesterday, Senator Faulkner asked about Health and Family Services has provided the delayed questions that he had asked previous- following answer to the honourable senator’s ques- ly. I am pleased to inform Senator Faulkner tion: that I have responses to his questions Nos 864 (1) (a)Three (3). and 1168 from the acting Minister for Health (b) Forty (40). and Family Services. I seek leave to incorpo- (2) (a & c) See Attachment. rate those in Hansard. (b & d) The Health Insurance Commission Leave granted. (HIC) considers the information re- quested in 2(b) and 2(d) could be used The answers read as follows— against the HIC in contractual negotia- SENATE QUESTION tions. The HIC negotiates leases with a range of major commercial property NUMBER 1168 owners and managers throughout Aus- SENATOR FAULKNER asked the Minister tralia. Release of this information may representing the Minister for Health and Family compromise the HIC’s ability to nego- Services, upon notice, on 23 April 1998: tiate the most favourable terms for the Commonwealth. With reference to the Medicare offices closed since March 1996: (3) The owned sites transferred to Medibank Limited upon its separation from the HIC. The (1) (a) How many sites were owned by the HIC no longer has any responsibility or Health Insurance Commission (HIC); and control over these sites.

ATTACHMENT HEALTH INSURANCE COMMISSION LEASING DETAILS OF CSCs WHICH HAVE/WILL BE CLOSING

NET Lettable Space Occu- Own or Closure pied Shop Shopping Cen- Street Ad- Town/Su CSC Name Lease Lessor Date (sq. metres) Number tre Name dress burb State P’code

NSW Auburn Lease Bacaran 26 Sep 97 149 Shop 8B Auburn Shop- 41 Auburn Auburn NSW 2144 ping Village Road Belmont Lease Primewest 27 Mar 98 84 Shop 7 Belmont Citi Macquarie Belmont NSW 2280 Enterprises Centre Street Cabramatta Lease Calabro 12 Sep 97 82 Shop 23 Commercial Cnr Arthur Cabra- NSW 2166 Property Centre & Railway matta Holdings P/L St Campsie Lease State 26 Sep 97 135 Shop 38 Campsie Centre 14-28 Amy Campsie NSW 2194 Authority Street Superannua- tion Corrimal Lease Kemant P/L 07 Nov 97 77 Shop 2 235-239 Corrimal NSW 2518 G Huxley-L Princes Merlotto Highway Dee Why Lease Gold Ioana 21 Nov 97 113 876 Dee Why NSW 2099 P/L Pittwater Road Erskine Own Medibank 12 Sep 97 96 33 Erskine Sydney NSW 2000 Street Ltd Street Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3213

NET Lettable Space Occu- Own or Closure pied Shop Shopping Cen- Street Ad- Town/Su CSC Name Lease Lessor Date (sq. metres) Number tre Name dress burb State P’code

Leichhardt Lease State 31 Oct 97 106 Shop 57A Leichhard Cnr Flood Leich- NSW 2040 Authority Marketplace & Marion hardt Superannua- Sts tion Marrickville Lease Palos/Psomad 31 Oct 97 123 222 Marrick- NSW 2204 ens Marrickville ville Rd Merrylands Lease Burns Philp 17 Oct 97 143 Shop G24, Stockland Mall Merrylan NSW 2160 Trustee Co Gallery ds Level Mt Druitt Lease Superannua- 27 Mar 98 120 Shop 167 Grevillea/M Mt Druitt NSW 2770 tion Fund markettown Inv.Trst. North Rocks Lease Perpetual 26 Sep 97 105 Shop 78 Westfield 328 North North NSW 2151 Trustee Co Shoppingtown Rocks Road Rocks Randwick Lease Central Pacif- 14 Nov 97 100 Shop 73 Royal Randwick Belmore Rand- NSW 2031 ic Manage- Shop Ctr Road wick ment P/L Rockdale Lease Tewino P/L 10 Oct 97 125 464 Princes Rockdale NSW 2216 Highway St Ives Lease E.K. 24 Oct 97 72 Shop 29 St Ives Shop- Mona Vale St Ives NSW 2075 Nominees ping Centre Road P/L Sylvania Lease ANZ Staff 10 Oct 97 106 Shop 19 Southgate Shop- Port Hack- Sylvania NSW 2224 Superannua- ping Centre ing Road tion Warrawong Lease P.T. Limited 28 Nov 97 72 Shop 130 Westfield Cnr King & Warra- NSW 2502 Shoppingtown Cowper Sts wong Queensland Cannon Hill Lease Yuan Chen 20 Feb 98 77 Shop 15 K-Mart Shop- Wynnum Cannon QLD 4170 P/L ping Centre Road Hill Cooparoo Lease Armajit 20 Feb 98 75 Shop 8 Cooparoo Mall Old Cleve- Cooparoo QLD 4151 Tajinder land Road Singh Queen St Own Medibank 27 Mar 98 163 Ground 444 Queen Brisbane QLD 4000 Private Floor St Wynnum Lease Aarro Hold- 27 Mar 98 81 Shop 2 76 Edith Wynnum QLD 4178 ings P/L Street SA Blackwood Lease Wbk 26 Sep 97 95 Shop 1 Magnet Shop- Coromandel Black- SA 5051 Nominees ping Ctr Parade wood Eastwood Own Medibank 14 Nov 97 n/a 209 Green- Eastwood SA 5063 Ltd hill Rd Glenelg Lease Odessa P/L 05 Dec 97 99 Shop 18 Bay Junction Jetty Road Glenelg SA 5045 Shopping Cen- tre Ingle Farm Lease Debonair 26 Sep 97 68 Shop 31 Ingle Farm Montague Ingle SA 5098 Nominees Shopping Ctr Road Farm P/L Kilkenny Lease Coom.Fund 29 May 98 98 Shop 143 Westfield Shop- Torrens Kilkenny SA 5009 M/Mint Ltd pingtown Road Rundle Mall Lease Info on 28 Nov 97 Citi Centre Pulteney Adelaide SA 5000 Medibank Street Files Salisbury Lease DW DLH 25 Jun 98 97 Shop 1 20 John Salisbury SA 5108 Garde Street Sefton Park Lease Northwood 12 Dec 97 105 Shop 1 Northwood 221 Main Sefton SA 5083 Investment Plaza North Road Park P/L TAS Moonah Lease Charles 5 Sep 97 90 103 Main Moonah TAS 7009 O’Connor Road P/L VIC Boronia Lease David 6 Feb 98 153.29 Shop 11 The Mall Floriston Boronia VIC 3155 Burstin & Road Morbur P/L Clayton Lease Mr A Oliver 27 Mar 98 120.77 357 Clayton Clayton VIC 3168 Road Croydon Lease Markwood 13 Feb 98 190 62 Main Croydon VIC 3136 Heights Street Deer Park Lease Colonial 20 Feb 98 113 Shop T54 Deer Park Neal Road Deer VIC 3023 Mutual Central Park 3214 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

NET Lettable Space Occu- Own or Closure pied Shop Shopping Cen- Street Ad- Town/Su CSC Name Lease Lessor Date (sq. metres) Number tre Name dress burb State P’code

Footscray Lease Foo Qan Eng 20 Mar 98 157.71 Shop 11- Metro West Cnr Paisley Footscray VIC 3011 Holdings P/L 13 & Albert Sts Heidelberg Lease Yarraman 27 Feb 98 153.75 Shop T25 Warringal Shop- 56 Burgun- Heidel- VIC 3084 Investments & 26A ping Centre dy Street berg Keysborough Lease Agent- 6 Mar 98 159.3 Shop N3 Parkmore Shop- Cheltenham Keysbor- VIC 3173 Lendlease ping Centre Road ough Retail Reservoir Lease Westpac 13 Mar 98 222.25 301 Spring Reservoir VIC 3073 Properties Street WA Cloisters Lease Cloisters 27 Mar 98 165 Shop 21 Cloisters Arcade 865 Hay Perth WA 6000 Property Street Management East Victoria Lease Jones Lang 12 Sep 97 84 Shop 17 The Park Centre Albany East Vic- WA 6101 Park Wootton Highway toria Park Innaloo Lease Westfield Mid-June 98 112 Shop 28 Innaloo Shop- Oswald Innaloo WA 6018 ping Centre Street Maddington Lease Centro Prop- 17 Oct 97 144 Shop 79 Maddington Sq Cnr Burslen Madding- WA 6109 erties Shopping Ctr Dr & ton Attfield Mirrabooka Lease Jones Lang 19 Sep 97 105 Shop 2 Mirrabooka Sq Yirrigan Mirraboo WA 6061 Wootton Shopping Cen- Drive ka tre

SENATE QUESTION will they replicate the remaining Medicare NUMBER 864 offices: if not, why not. SENATOR FAULKNER asked the Minister (10) Have any additional costs been identified or representing the Minister for Health and Family alternatively estimated to rent Medibank Services, upon notice, on 9 September 1997: Private offices; if so, what is the annual cost. (1) What is the location of all Medicare offices. (11) What is the estimated additional one-off and (2) How many transactions do they perform each recurring cost, over and above rent, to year. separate functions. (3) For those Medicare offices that will remain (12) How many staff positions will be lost to open: (a) what is the term of the lease; (b) Medicare as a result of the decision. what is the annual cost of the lease; and (c) when was it last renewed. (13) Has a new minimum staffing level for Medicare offices been developed; if so, (4) What is the population that each office ser- what is it. vices. SENATOR HERRON—the Acting Minister for (5) What is the location and transaction turnover Health and Family Services has provided the of those Medicare offices proposed to be following answer to the honourable Senator’s closed. question: (6) For those Medicare offices proposed to be (1) The answer is at Attachment A. closed: (a) what is the annual cost of the lease; (b) when was it last renewed; and (c) when (2) The answer is at Attachment A. does it expire. (3) Medicare offices currently provide both (7) Are there any offices in (6) on a day to day Medicare and Medibank Private services until lease; if so, from what date. 30 June 1998. The Health Insurance Commis- (8) What were the criteria that were used to sion (HIC) considers the information requested determine which offices would close and is commercial-in-confidence and could preju- which would remain open. dice contractual negotiations. (9) With reference to the Government’s decision (4) The answer is at Attachment A. to separate all Medibank Private functions out (5) The answer is at Attachment A. of Medicare offices: (6) See Answer (3). Will separate offices be established to service Medibank Private; if so: (a) how many; and (b) (7) See Answer (3). Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3215

(8) The criteria which were taken into consider- Separation of Medibank Private from the HIC ation when identifying Medicare branch office will not diminish access to Medibank Private closures included: services and members will continue to enjoy a . claiming patterns including cash service very high level of service. workloads (ie less than 400 daily average Medibank Private will establish a distribution Medicare cash services); strtategy that caters to all its customers. . proximity to other branch offices (ie no more Medibank Private has not announced the final than 12kms by road); number of branch offices in the network. . capacity to redeploy staff; and Medibank Private considers this information to . leasing and other property issues. be commercially confidential. All 43 branch offices identified for closure are (10) Medibank Private will contribute significant 12 kilometres or less from another branch office funds to the operation of the joint network and enable the HIC to effectively redeploy staff of offices until 30 June 1998. These funds from offices which are closing. The HIC in its will then be allocated to establishing a assessment of branch offices sought to minimise separate network. any inconvenience to the public. (11) Separation of Medibank Private from the Lease expiry and other property issues were HIC was undertaken without additional cost utilised to optimise closure arrangements in to the Commonwealth budget. The HIC will conjunction with the other criteria. manage any change in costs within its current budget allocation over the period of (9) Medibank Private will cease sharing branch the forward estimates. offices with Medicare in the middle of 1998. Separate offices are being established from late (12) None. 1997 through to 30 June 1998. (13) This is not deemed necessary, see (12).

Attachment A

ESTIMATED TOTAL PATIENT POPULATION BRANCH OFFICE NAME TOWN/SUBURB STATE SERVICES 96/97 SERVICED NSW-ACT ALBURY ALBURY NSW 266,420 92,187 ARMIDALE ARMIDALE NSW 126,318 43,708 % AUBURN AUBURN NSW 100,503 34,776 BALLINA BALLINA NSW 160,153 55,416 BANKSTOWN BANKSTOWN NSW 200,003 69,205 BATEMANS BAY BATEMANS BAY NSW 112,282 38,852 BATHURST BATHURST NSW 131,831 45,616 BEGA BEGA NSW 147,370 50,993 BELCONNEN BELCONNEN ACT 283,212 81,617 % BELMONT BELMONT NSW 181,205 62,701 BLACKTOWN BLACKTOWN NSW 220,304 76,230 BONDI BONDI JUNCTION NSW 339,604 117,510 BOWRAL BOWRAL NSW 108,523 37,551 BROOKVALE BROOKVALE NSW 404,266 139,884 BURWOOD BURWOOD NSW 136,343 47,177 % CABRAMATTA CABRAMATTA NSW 61,154 21,160 CAMDEN CAMDEN NSW 120,302 41,627 CAMPBELLTOWN CAMPBELLTOWN NSW 243,863 84,382 % CAMPSIE CAMPSIE NSW 78,698 27,231 CASINO CASINO NSW 179,952 62,267 CASTLE HILL CASTLE HILL NSW 246,871 85,422 CESSNOCK CESSNOCK NSW 168,423 58,278 CHARLESTOWN CHARLESTOWN NSW 272,435 94,268 CHATSWOOD CHATSWOOD NSW 403,514 139,624 CIVIC CIVIC ACT 341,859 98,519 COFFS HARBOUR COFFS HARBOUR NSW 190,729 65,996 COOMA COOMA NSW 130,829 45,270 % CORRIMAL CORRIMAL NSW 134,087 46,397 COWRA COWRA NSW 119,049 41,194 3216 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

ESTIMATED TOTAL PATIENT POPULATION BRANCH OFFICE NAME TOWN/SUBURB STATE SERVICES 96/97 SERVICED % DEE WHY DEE WHY NSW 178,198 61,660 DUBBO DUBBO NSW 218,800 75,709 EASTWOOD EASTWOOD NSW 244,615 84,642 ENGADINE ENGADINE NSW 127,821 44,229 ERINA ERINA NSW 151,882 52,554 % ERSKINE STREET SYDNEY NSW 67,670 23,415 FAIRFIELD FAIRFIELD NSW 128,573 44,489 GOSFORD GOSFORD NSW 190,479 65,910 GOULBURN GOULBURN NSW 151,381 52,381 GRAFTON GRAFTON NSW 282,961 97,910 GRIFFITH GRIFFITH NSW 222,309 76,923 GUNNEDAH GUNNEDAH NSW 106,518 36,857 HORNSBY HORNSBY NSW 346,872 120,025 HURSTVILLE HURSTVILLE NSW 190,980 66,083 INVERELL INVERELL NSW 118,047 40,847 KATOOMBA KATOOMBA NSW 131,581 45,530 KEMPSEY KEMPSEY NSW 106,267 36,771 KOTARA KOTARA NSW 247,622 85,683 LAKE HAVEN LAKE HAVEN NSW 190,980 66,083 % LEICHHARDT LEICHHARDT NSW 139,601 48,305 LISMORE LISMORE NSW 214,289 74,148 LITHGOW LITHGOW NSW 107,270 37,118 LIVERPOOL LIVERPOOL NSW 208,023 71,980 MACKSVILLE MACKSVILLE NSW 71,179 24,629 MAITLAND MAITLAND NSW 182,208 63,048 % MARRICKVILLE MARRICKVILLE NSW 56,642 19,599 MARTIN PLACE SYDNEY NSW 284,214 98,344 MERIMBULA MERIMBULA NSW 96,493 33,388 % MERRYLANDS MERRYLANDS NSW 141,105 48,825 MIRANDA MIRANDA NSW 247,622 85,683 MOREE MOREE NSW 128,824 44,576 % MT DRUITT MT DRUITT NSW 72,432 25,063 MUDGEE MUDGEE NSW 131,330 45,443 MUSWELLBROOK MUSWELLBROOK NSW 135,090 46,744 NAROOMA NAROOMA NSW 132,333 45,790 NARRABRI NARRABRI NSW 82,207 28,445 NEWCASTLE NEWCASTLE NSW 264,164 91,406 % NORTH ROCKS NORTH ROCKS NSW 165,416 57,237 NORTH RYDE NORTH RYDE NSW 254,389 88,024 NORTH SYDNEY NORTH SYDNEY NSW 205,266 71,026 NOWRA NOWRA NSW 143,611 49,692 ORANGE ORANGE NSW 225,818 78,138 PAGEWOOD PAGEWOOD NSW 144,363 49,953 PARKES PARKES NSW 90,227 31,220 PARRAMATTA PARRAMATTA NSW 182,960 63,308 PENRITH PENRITH NSW 299,753 103,721 PORT MACQUARIE PORT MACQUARIE NSW 138,097 47,784 QUEANBEYAN QUEANBEYAN NSW 132,333 45,790 % RANDWICK RANDWICK NSW 71,931 24,890 RAYMOND TERRACE RAYMOND TERRACE NSW 147,872 51,167 RICHMOND RICHMOND NSW 151,882 52,554 % ROCKDALE ROCKDALE NSW 78,698 27,231 ROSELANDS ROSELANDS NSW 145,115 50,213 SHELLHARBOUR SHELLHARBOUR NSW 139,350 48,218 SINGLETON SINGLETON NSW 146,117 50,560 SPIT JUNCTION SPIT JUNCTION NSW 239,853 82,994 SPRINGWOOD SPRINGWOOD NSW 119,300 41,280 % ST IVES ST IVES NSW 164,915 57,064 % SYLVANIA SYLVANIA NSW 107,520 37,204 TAMWORTH TAMWORTH NSW 246,620 85,336 TAREE TAREE NSW 192,484 66,603 THE ENTRANCE THE ENTRANCE NSW 147,872 51,167 TORONTO TORONTO NSW 142,859 49,432 TUGGERANONG TUGGERANONG ACT 227,572 65,583 ULLADULLA ULLADULLA NSW 90,979 31,481 UMINA UMINA NSW 166,168 57,497 WAGGA WAGGA WAGGA NSW 352,636 122,020 Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3217

ESTIMATED TOTAL PATIENT POPULATION BRANCH OFFICE NAME TOWN/SUBURB STATE SERVICES 96/97 SERVICED WALLSEND WALLSEND NSW 125,064 43,275 % WARRAWONG WARRAWONG NSW 132,333 45,790 WARRIEWOOD WARRIEWOOD NSW 214,038 74,062 WODEN WODEN ACT 353,388 101,841 WOLLONGONG WOLLONGONG NSW 209,276 72,414 WYNYARD SYDNEY NSW 449,881 155,668 YORK STREET SYDNEY NSW 314,791 108,924 YOUNG YOUNG NSW 116,794 40,413 TOTAL FOR STATE 18,686,221 6,396,068 QLD AITKENVALE AITKENVALE QLD 428,577 143,337 ASHMORE ASHMORE QLD 165,416 55,323 ATHERTON ATHERTON QLD 142,107 47,527 AYR AYR QLD 168,173 56,245 BEENLEIGH BEENLEIGH QLD 113,535 37,972 BOWEN BOWEN QLD 150,127 50,210 BROOKSIDE MITCHELTON QLD 271,934 90,948 BUNDABERG BUNDABERG QLD 303,262 101,426 CABOOLTURE CABOOLTURE QLD 137,596 46,019 CAIRNS CAIRNS QLD 368,175 123,136 CALOUNDRA CALOUNDRA QLD 103,510 34,619 % CANNON HILL CANNON HILL QLD 84,964 28,416 CAPALABA CAPALABA QLD 105,014 35,122 CARINDALE CARINDALE QLD 147,872 49,455 CHERMSIDE CHERMSIDE QLD 260,154 87,008 CITY PLAZA BRISBANE QLD 140,854 47,108 CLEVELAND CLEVELAND QLD 149,877 50,126 CLIFFORD GARDEN CLIFFORD GARDENS QLD 141,606 47,360 % COORPAROO COORPAROO QLD 150,127 50,210 DALBY DALBY QLD 150,378 50,294 GARDEN CITY UPPER MT GRAVATT QLD 317,548 106,203 GLADSTONE GLADSTONE QLD 225,066 75,273 GYMPIE GYMPIE QLD 192,985 64,544 HERVEY BAY PIALBA QLD 158,899 53,144 INDOOROOPILLY INDOOROOPILLY QLD 333,839 111,652 INGHAM INGHAM QLD 188,474 63,035 INNISFAIL INNISFAIL QLD 197,998 66,220 IPSWICH IPSWICH QLD 237,597 79,464 KAWANA WATERS KAWANA WATERS QLD 139,100 46,522 KINGAROY KINGAROY QLD 149,626 50,042 KIPPA RING KIPPA RING QLD 217,547 72,758 MACKAY MACKAY QLD 423,815 141,744 MARYBOROUGH MARYBOROUGH QLD 198,499 66,388 MT ISA MOUNT ISA QLD 158,398 52,976 NAMBOUR NAMBOUR QLD 169,175 56,580 NORTH ROCKY NORTH ROCKHAMP- QLD 256,144 85,667 TON PACIFIC FAIR BROADBEACH QLD 307,272 102,767 % QUEEN STREET BRISBANE QLD 119,049 39,816 ROCKHAMPTON ROCKHAMPTON QLD 270,931 90,612 SMITHFIELD SMITHFIELD QLD 129,325 43,253 SOUTHPORT SOUTHPORT QLD 330,080 110,395 STRATHPINE STRATHPINE QLD 128,824 43,085 TOOMBUL TOOMBUL QLD 178,950 59,849 TOOWOOMBA TOOWOOMBA QLD 275,944 92,289 TOWNSVILLE TOWNSVILLE CITY QLD 175,692 58,760 TWEED HEADS TWEED HEADS NSW 240,855 83,341 WARWICK WARWICK QLD 142,608 47,695 WINTERGARDEN BRISBANE QLD 305,769 102,264 WOODRIDGE LOGAN CENTRAL QLD 108,773 36,379 % WYNNUM WYNNUM QLD 97,746 32,691 TOTAL FOR STATE 10,059,787 3,367,265 SA-NT 3218 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

ESTIMATED TOTAL PATIENT POPULATION BRANCH OFFICE NAME TOWN/SUBURB STATE SERVICES 96/97 SERVICED ALICE SPRINGS ALICE SPINGS NT 103,510 64,292 BERRI BERRI SA 218,800 65,706 % BLACKWOOD BLACKWOOD SA 167,922 50,427 BROKEN HILL BROKEN HILL NSW 162,910 56,370 CASUARINA CASUARINA NT 417,299 259,192 COLONNADES NOARLUNGA CEN- SA 253,638 76,167 TRE DARWIN DARWIN NT 172,183 106,946 % EASTWOOD EASTWOOD SA 215,291 64,652 ELIZABETH ELIZABETH SA 172,433 51,782 GAWLER GAWLER SA 179,200 53,814 % GLENELG GLENELG SA 190,228 57,126 % INGLE FARM INGLE FARM SA 198,248 59,534 % KILKENNY KILKENNY SA 240,354 72,178 KING WILLIAM ST ADELAIDE SA 308,024 92,500 MARION OAKLANDS PARK SA 227,321 68,265 MOUNT GAMBIER MT GAMBIER SA 218,549 65,630 PORT AUGUSTA PORT AUGUSTA SA 169,175 50,803 PORT LINCOLN PORT LINCOLN SA 127,069 38,159 PORT PIRIE PORT PIRIE SA 163,912 49,223 % RUNDLE MALL ADELAIDE SA 227,071 68,189 % SALISBURY SALISBURY SA 121,806 36,578 % SEFTON PARK SEFTON PARK SA 133,586 40,116 TEA TREE PLAZA MODBURY SA 291,984 87,683 WEST LAKES WEST LAKES SA 264,164 79,329 WHYALLA WHYALLA SA 235,091 70,598 TOTAL FOR STATE 5,179,770 1,785,259 TAS BELLERIVE ROSNY TAS 274,941 68,564 BURNIE BURNIE TAS 158,398 39,501 DEVONPORT DEVONPORT TAS 210,780 52,564 GLENORCHY GLENORCHY TAS 204,013 50,876 HOBART HOBART TAS 383,715 95,689 KINGSTON KINGSTON TAS 135,841 33,876 LAUNCESTON LAUNCESTON TAS 325,067 81,064 % MOONAH MOONAH TAS 149,375 37,251 TOTAL FOR STATE 1,842,131 459,384 VIC AIRPORT WEST AIRPORT WEST VIC 204,514 63,514 ALTONA ALTONA VIC 231,081 71,764 ARARAT ARARAT VIC 146,368 45,456 BAIRNSDALE BAIRNSDALE VIC 138,348 42,965 BALLARAT BALLARAT VIC 399,254 123,992 BENDIGO BENDIGO VIC 326,320 101,342 BENTLEIGH BENTLEIGH VIC 327,824 101,809 % BORONIA BORONIA VIC 167,170 51,916 BOURKE ST MELBOURNE VIC 321,057 99,707 BOX HILL BOX HILL VIC 277,197 86,086 BROADMEADOWS BROADMEADOWS VIC 128,824 40,007 CAMBERWELL CAMBERWELL VIC 350,631 108,892 CENTREPOINT MELBOURNE VIC 370,181 114,963 CHADSTONE CHADSTONE VIC 347,373 107,880 CHIRNSIDE PK CHIRNSIDE PARK VIC 219,051 68,028 % CLAYTON CLAYTON VIC 174,940 54,329 COBURG COBURG VIC 175,190 54,407 COLAC COLAC VIC 156,644 48,647 COLLINS ST MELBOURNE VIC 189,727 58,921 CORIO CORIO VIC 156,894 48,725 % CROYDON CROYDON VIC 211,030 65,537 DANDENONG DANDENONG VIC 338,100 105,000 % DEER PARK DEER PARK VIC 147,120 45,689 DONCASTER DONCASTER VIC 373,439 115,975 ECHUCA ECHUCA VIC 156,142 48,491 Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3219

ESTIMATED TOTAL PATIENT POPULATION BRANCH OFFICE NAME TOWN/SUBURB STATE SERVICES 96/97 SERVICED ELSTERNWICK ELSTERNWICK VIC 347,123 107,802 % FOOTSCRAY FOOTSCRAY Vic 107,771 33,469 FOREST HILL FOREST HILL VIC 218,048 67,717 FRANKSTON FRANKSTON VIC 399,254 123,992 GEELONG GEELONG VIC 517,050 160,574 GLEN WAVERLEY GLEN WAVERLEY VIC 401,760 124,770 GREENSBOROUGH GREENSBOROUGH VIC 334,591 103,910 HAMILTON HAMILTON VIC 189,727 58,921 % HEIDELBERG HEIDLEBERG VIC 214,038 66,471 HIGHPOINT MARIBYRNONG VIC 201,005 62,424 HORSHAM HORSHAM VIC 171,932 53,395 % KEYSBOROUGH KEYSBOROUGH VIC 187,722 58,299 KNOX WANTIRNA SOUTH VIC 339,854 105,545 MELTON MELTON VIC 175,942 54,640 MILDURA MILDURA VIC 236,595 73,477 MOONEE PONDS MOONEE PONDS VIC 271,182 84,218 MORNINGTON MORNINGTON VIC 227,572 70,675 MORWELL MORWELL VIC 128,323 39,852 NORTHCOTE NORTHCOTE VIC 214,539 66,627 NORTHLAND PRESTON VIC 252,384 78,380 PORTLAND PORTLAND VIC 129,074 40,085 PRAHRAN PRAHRAN VIC 301,508 93,636 % RESERVOIR RESERVOIR VIC 159,150 49,425 RINGWOOD RINGWOOD VIC 277,949 86,319 SALE SALE VIC 215,041 66,783 SHEPPARTON SHEPPARTON VIC 386,722 120,100 SOUTHLAND SOUTHLAND VIC 543,366 168,747 SWAN HILL SWAN HILL VIC 139,852 43,432 TRARALGON TRARALGON VIC 180,704 56,119 WANGARATTA WANGARATTA VIC 211,281 65,615 WARRAGUL WARRAGUL VIC 140,353 43,588 WARRNAMBOOL WARRNAMBOOL VIC 176,694 54,874 WAURN PONDS WAURN PONDS VIC 163,912 50,904 WAVERLEY GARDEN MULGRAVE VIC 241,106 74,878 WERRIBEE WERRIBEE VIC 163,912 50,904 WODONGA WODONGA VIC 185,717 57,676 TOTAL FOR STATE 14,787,170 4,592,289 WA ALBANY ALBANY WA 224,815 85,644 ARMADALE ARMADALE WA 138,348 52,704 BOORAGOON BOORAGOON WA 415,294 158,207 BUNBURY BUNBURY WA 342,110 130,328 CANNINGTON CANNINGTON WA 245,367 93,473 % CLOISTERS PERTH WA 150,378 57,287 % EAST VICTORIA PK EAST VIC PARK WA 209,276 79,724 FREMANTLE FREMANTLE WA 225,567 85,930 GERALDTON GERALDTON WA 205,015 78,101 HILLARYS HILLARYS WA 157,145 59,865 % INNALOO INNALOO WA 191,231 72,850 KALGOORLIE KALGOORLIE WA 222,810 84,880 KARRINYUP KARRINYUP WA 235,843 89,845 % MADDINGTON MADDINGTON WA 151,631 57,764 MANDURAH MANDURAH WA 131,831 50,221 MIDLAND MIDLAND WA 237,848 90,609 % MIRRABOOKA MIRRABOOKA WA 166,669 63,493 MORLEY MORLEY WA 265,668 101,207 ROCKINGHAM ROCKINGHAM WA 193,737 73,805 SUBIACO SUBIACO WA 319,804 121,830 WESLEY CENTRE PERTH WA 306,019 116,579 TOTAL FOR STATE 4,736,406 1,804,345 3220 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT Outsourcing has prepared a document setting NOTICE out a detailed breakdown of the cost of the sale of the first one-third of Telstra. That Indonesia information is contained in document 4. I now Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister table all of those documents. for the Environment) (3.05 p.m.)—On Thurs- day, 14 May, Senator Brown asked me, as PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (3.06 p.m.)— whether the Prime Minister or the Minister for I seek leave to make a brief personal explan- Foreign Affairs had spoken during the previ- ation under standing order 191, as I claim to ous few days with their opposite numbers in have been misrepresented by the Minister for Indonesia about the situation there. I have Schools, Vocational Education and Training, sought the Prime Minister’s advice and he has Senator Ellison. provided the following answer to the honour- able senator’s question: Leave granted. Neither I nor the Minister for Foreign Affairs spoke Senator ALLISON—Senator Ellison said to our Indonesian counterparts during the few days that I had misled the Bendigo community on before 14 May. Sunday last by using figures which I think he TELSTRA insinuated were out of date. I did in fact talk about the figures of the most recent census— Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for that is, the 1996 census. I drew attention to Communications, the Information Economy the fact that, in the Bendigo electorate, there and the Arts) (3.06 p.m.)—by leave—In were 13.4 per cent unemployed and that that relation to notices of motion 1133 and 1136, electorate ranked No. 12 in all of Australia. standing in the name of Senator Bourne, the It is also ranked second for the whole of government is quite happy to provide the Victoria. I also drew attention to the fact that substantive information referred to in the for families earning under $500 a week, orders for the production of documents arising Bendigo ranked twelfth in Australia and, from those notices of motion as follows. To again, second for Victoria. address part 1 of Senator Bourne’s first motion directed to me, following consultation I used these figures as being the most between Senator Bourne’s office and my recent census figures. I do understand that office Telstra has supplied a statistical break- there are unemployment figures from Decem- down of employment reductions by region, ber 1997. However, those figures are collected covering the period April 1996 to March from the department, and I suggest that the 1998. That information is contained in docu- figures that I used are more accurate because ment 1. To address part 2 of Senator Bourne’s they come from a self-assessment—that is, first motion, the Department of Communica- from the census itself. The department’s tions and the Arts has identified three docu- figure is 12.2 per cent, which is still extreme- ments which may be relevant to this request. ly high, and is based on a much narrower That information is set out in documents 2A, definition of unemployment than is used by 2B and 2C. the census. To address part 1 of Senator Bourne’s Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) second motion addressed to Senator Kemp, (3.09 p.m.)—I seek leave to make a brief the Office of Asset Sales and Information personal explanation as I claim to have been Technology Outsourcing has prepared a misrepresented. document setting out its estimate of the $580 Leave granted. million cost of the sale of the remaining two- thirds of Telstra. That information is con- Senator SCHACHT—In question time tained in document 3. To address part 2 of today Senator Alston, in reply to a dorothy Senator Bourne’s second motion, the Office dix question, I think from Senator Sandy of Asset Sales and Information Technology Macdonald—and I have had this checked Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3221 from the tape from the Leader of the Opposi- Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister for tion in the Senate—said: Resources and Energy) (3.11 p.m.)—I am At the same time, you might explain to the Senate advised that the Minister for Customs and why you leaked a copy of that Senate report on Consumer Affairs is considering the response Telstra to Steve Lewis of the Australian Financial and anticipates that it will be provided to the Review. honourable senator by the end of the week. The tenor of those remarks was that the ‘you’ Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.12 p.m.)— was being directed at me. I move: I want to say that I have not in any way That the Senate take note of the explanation. breached the standing orders. I have not leaked any document to Steve Lewis. The I do so because this answer is well overdue. only person I know of in any Telstra issue As I said, it was lodged on 30 March, some over the last couple of years who has been 59 days ago. It is one day short of being involved in leaking documents and breaching double the time provided for under the stand- the privileges of this place has actually been ing order. It is also an important question the minister himself on the first Telstra report. because it goes to possible breaches of Mr Howard’s ministerial code of conduct and the Senator Abetz—Withdraw that. code laid out in the cabinet handbook by the Senator SCHACHT—The matter is before Minister for Resources and Energy, the the Privileges Committee— Minister for Primary Industries and Energy, The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, it is the Minister for Defence and the Minister for not a matter to be canvassed— Trade. To quote the cabinet handbook: Senator SCHACHT—And the answers the Ministers at meetings of the Ministry, Cabinet and Committees, must declare any private interests held minister himself gave publicly in the esti- by themselves or members of their immediate mates committee confirm that he actually got family in matters under immediate discussion hold of the document and leaked it to his own where those interests conflict or might conflict with department. their public duty as Ministers. The PRESIDENT—Senator Schacht, you It continues: ought not to be canvassing a matter that is Ministers should adopt a broad interpretation of the before the Privileges Committee. requirement that they take into account the interests Senator SCHACHT—Madam President, I of family members and all the interests of their absolutely deny and categorically refute the own in considering whether there is a conflict or a potential or apparent conflict which should be fact that I, according to the minister, leaked declared. General declarations should be made in the Senate report to Mr Lewis. I would ap- all cases where an interest exists which could not preciate, if the minister has any evidence, that be said to be shared with the rest of the communi- he do the right thing and put it before the ty. Privileges Committee. It seems that Mr Anderson read the handbook Senator Alston—I will consider that. when he became a minister. When he was interviewed on the ABC’s Countrywide ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON program in early May 1996, he said he would NOTICE absent himself from both the discussions and Question No. 1121 votes of cabinet where the matters being considered could place him in a conflict of Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.11 interest. Let me quote exactly what Mr p.m.)—I have two matters to raise pursuant to Anderson said. He said: standing order 74(5). Firstly, pursuant to standing order 74(5), I ask the Minister repre- I think my requirement is that I satisfy the Prime Minister and Cabinet that there is no conflict of senting the Minister for Customs and Con- interest and in any particular situation that might sumer Affairs for an explanation as to why an arise where a decision has to be made then I can answer has not been provided to question on declare my interest. I would always do that and if notice No. 1121 of 30 March 1998. necessary refrain from debate and even voting. 3222 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Former Senator Collins, who was pursuing the Question No. 1118 matter at that time, asked whether or not Mr Anderson, as a farmer, would receive a rebate Question No. 1129 under the diesel fuel rebate scheme. In reply, Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.15 Senator Parer said that Minister Anderson was p.m.)—Pursuant to standing order 74(5), I ask a farmer and, as a result, he would get the the Minister representing the Minister for normal diesel fuel rebate that applies to rural Workplace Relations and Small Business, producers. Senator Alston, for an explanation as to why answers still have not been provided to But did Mr Anderson absent himself from questions on notice Nos 1118 and 1129 which the expenditure review committee and the I asked on 30 March and 7 April 1998 respec- cabinet deliberations on the future of the tively. diesel fuel rebate scheme? He did not. In a press release issued on 13 August 1996, Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for Senator David Brownhill, the then parlia- Communications, the Information Economy mentary secretary to Mr Anderson, welcomed and the Arts) (3.15 p.m.)—I do not have any the announcement of the retention of the direct instructions on the matter but, as I diesel fuel rebate. Senator Brownhill said: understand it, it is under active consideration by the minister’s office. I will report back to I know the persuasive arguments put to the ERC by the Senate if I am in a position to take the the National Party Deputy Leader, John Anderson, matter any further. and his role in ensuring the scheme retention cannot be overemphasised. Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.16 p.m.)—I move: In a press release dated the same day, Mr Anderson said: That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Workplace Relations I have consistently argued the case for the DFRS. and Small Business (Senator Alston), no later than immediately after question time on 28 May 1998, Madam President, the diesel fuel rebate answers to questions on notice Nos 1118 and 1129 scheme is not an interest that is shared by the relating to waterfront reform. whole community. It is a benefit available to Senator Hill—Madam President, I raise a a relatively small sector of the community, point of order. According to standing orders— including Mr Anderson, Mr Fischer, Mr and I might be in error—I am not sure that McLachlan and Senator Parer. that is an allowable motion. I know that he can move to take note of the minister’s The question on notice that the government answer that was given, but can he move has had before it for 59 days asks what another motion without having leave for it to financial benefit these ministers—who were be moved? all in the cabinet room arguing for the reten- tion of the diesel fuel rebate scheme— The PRESIDENT—I do not think he received. The Senate and the public have a moved to take note of the answer. He moved right to know. The public record shows that a motion, and he is entitled to do that. There Mr Anderson breached the cabinet guidelines have been precedents for it. by participating in a cabinet debate where Senator Hill—Under the standing orders, there was a clear conflict of interest. I will be does the motion not have to be to take note interested to hear whether Mr Fischer, Mr of the minister’s explanation, which gives him McLachlan and Senator Parer ignored the the opportunity to make his comments on rules as well. I note that I am to receive an that? Surely he is not allowed to move a answer by the end of this week. I await that motion about anything he likes. answer with great anticipation. The commit- ment has been made that I will get it this The PRESIDENT—I will read the relevant week. I expect to get it. paragraph (c), which states: in the event that the minister does not provide an Question resolved in the affirmative. explanation, the senator may, without notice, move Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3223 a motion with regard to the minister’s failure to Senator Alston—I had no knowledge that provide either an answer or an explanation. the matter was going to be raised until Sena- The senator did that. tor Evans said to me, ‘You might like to hang around the chamber because Senator O’Brien Senator Hill—With respect, Madam Presi- is about to get to his feet and give you a dent, I suggest that was not what he moved at mention.’ Apart from that, I had no know- all. He did not move a motion in relation to ledge at all of the substance of the matter. I the failure to give an explanation. He moved therefore made that plain when I rose, that I an entirely different motion, which was that was effectively taken by surprise. I went on certain documents be tabled within a certain to say that I did not have instructions from time. I would suggest that is not covered by Mr Reith, that I understood the matter to be this provision of the standing orders. On the under active consideration and I would come basis of that interpretation, if it were correct, back to the Senate if there was anything he could basically move a motion about further that Mr Reith was able to add. anything he liked. That is clearly not the intention of this particular provision. All of that amounts to an explanation, albeit it one that Senator O’Brien might regard as The PRESIDENT—There is plenty of less than satisfactory, but that is not the point. precedent for a motion of that kind having The standing order does not talk in terms of been asked in relation to the minister’s failure providing a less than satisfactory explanation. to give an explanation. It says ‘no explanation at all’. You have to construe what I said in terms of whether it Senator Alston—Madam President, I raise constitutes any form of explanation. If there a point of order. I did provide an explanation. is no answer, if I got up and said that I have It may be one that Senator O’Brien regards as nothing to say, there is no explanation. If I less than ideal, but that is not the point. If I explain where the matter is at the present had not provided any explanation, he may time, I have provided an explanation. have been in a position— Senator Cook—No, you haven’t. Senator Schacht—That is not an explan- ation. Senator Alston—There can be no doubting that. Senator Alston—My explanation was that Senator Faulkner—Madam President, on I understand the matter is still under active the same point of order: can I draw your consideration, and I will report back to the attention— Senate after I have had discussions with the minister. I have not received any instructions Senator Hill—We’ve all got it now. from him, so I am not able to advise Senator Senator Faulkner—That is good. If you O’Brien on the run about the current state of have it, you would be withdrawing your point play, but I did indicate that I would take the of order. matter further. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator The PRESIDENT—Senator Alston, when Faulkner, you should be addressing me. you got to your feet I understood you to say Senator Faulkner—Indeed, Madam Presi- that you had no information on the matter. dent. If I could draw your attention to the Senator Alston—You must judge the same standing order, standing order 74(5), it answer from the substance of it. I do not states: recall using that precise form of words but I If a minister does not answer a question on certainly indicated that I did not have any notice asked by a senator within 30 days of the personal knowledge of the matter. That was asking of that question, and does not, within that period, provide to the senator who asked the what I was conveying, not that I had no question an explanation satisfactory to that senator explanation in terms of the motion. of why an answer has not yet been provided— Senator Conroy—So you have no explan- and then three courses of action in (a), (b) ation. and (c) are listed. 3224 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Senator Hill—We can all read. am happy to defer this and look at it in more Senator Faulkner—Indeed. Quite clearly, detail, but my ruling is that it is in order. Madam President, we have a situation where Senator Alston—Could I ask that you do? in this particular case Senator Alston, as the Could I just put one other matter, which is minister representing the minister in this effectively a point of priority? chamber, has neither answered the question Opposition senator—There is no such nor provided a satisfactory explanation nor thing. provided an explanation satisfactory to that Senator Alston—I know that you do not senator. Obviously it is competent for Senator understand the meaning of the word, but I O’Brien in those circumstances to move a might be able to help you. Madam President, motion in the form that he has moved. I simply would elaborate a separate point I would also suggest to you, Madam Presi- which I think is important in the context of dent, that this has been a course of action that whether you make a decision now or later. has been undertaken on very many occa- As I have been advised just recently by a sions—perhaps not in the life of the current member of my office, Senator O’Brien’s parliament, but certainly on quite a number of office have, indeed, been in contact with my occasions I can recall during the life of office on a number of occasions asking for, previous Labor administrations. It might even effectively, a progress report and, as I am have been a device or a parliamentary proced- advised, have also indicated that they would ure used by Senator Alston on occasions. not attempt to bring the matter on or move Certainly a number of his colleagues did any motions without giving warning on the precisely the same thing. I suggest to you, matter. No warning has been given to me, and Madam President, it is quite in order. that may well be because I was not in the The PRESIDENT—On my understanding building until about 1— of the standing order and the precedents Opposition senators interjecting— which I have had a brief opportunity to look at relating to the occasions on which similar The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator, it is procedure has been used—first by Senator quite clear to me from everything that I Macklin on 23 November 1988; and even on have— one occasion I think a censure motion was Senator Alston—Madam President, could moved at a similar stage in proceedings when I just complete that submission? a senator did not get an answer to a ques- The PRESIDENT—Yes. tion—I would rule the motion in order. Senator Alston—Therefore, given that Senator Alston—Madam President, can I Senator O’Brien himself has indicated, ask for— through his office to my office, that he would Senator Faulkner—Move dissent if you not bring the matter on without warning, it don’t like it, but get on with it. would seem to me only fair that you should take further time to consider whether the Senator Alston—I am asking for an ex- precedents— planation. Madam President, on the point of order, are you ruling that I have not provided Senator O’Brien—I’ve been chasing your an explanation? Bear in mind that Senator office for weeks. Faulkner interprets this and has submitted to Senator Alston—effectively establish the you that I have not provided a satisfactory proposition that saying that the matter is explanation. There is the world of difference. under review constitutes no explanation. That You are being asked to rule on part (c) of that is what you are effectively ruling if you standing order which, on the plain face of it— decide that what I have given is no explan- The PRESIDENT—My understanding of ation at all. it and what has happened in the past is that The PRESIDENT—That has been exactly the answer you gave is not an answer to the the approach in the past and certainly was question and has been ruled so in the past. I done by Senator Ellison on 19 May 1995. I Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3225 am satisfied that what has been done is Madam President, you and other senators consistent with the standing orders and what may well make a determination that the has happened previously. explanation is strong, weak or indifferent. Senator Alston—Can I simply put it But, if an explanation has been provided, the another way: that, short of not providing the only course open to the honourable senator, document, it presumably could then be argued in my submission, is under standing order that you have not provided any explanation. 74(5)(b) and not (c). If Senator Alston had An explanation is normally a reason for a said, ‘I have no explanation whatsoever’ or if course of conduct; it is not simply giving a he had sat there mute then, in my respectful blanket refusal or saying ‘I have nothing to submission, Madam President, Senator say’. In this situation, I have explained why O’Brien would have been entitled to move the document has not yet been produced—and pursuant to standing order 74(5)(c) in the that is because it is still being considered by manner that he has tried to. I must say that I the minister’s office. have great difficulty with the ruling, but I do not seek to canvass it. I think, however, for If you say that is not an explanation, I the future— would ask that you give careful consideration to your ruling because I would be very sur- Senator Faulkner—Well, sit down then! prised—and I hear what the clerk says, that Senator Abetz—Would you mind not being they are all on all-fours—and I think it would so rude, Senator Faulkner? You are just be very helpful to the chamber to examine disgraceful in this place. what those cases were to see what actually Senator Faulkner—You pompous ass. constitutes a failure to provide any explan- ation at all. Senator Abetz—Madam President, with respect, what I am asking you to do is to The PRESIDENT—I think you are canvas- consider this matter in some detail and then sing the ruling, Senator. come back to the Senate at a later time with Senator Alston—I was asking for it to be a considered determination in the matter. In deferred. my respectful submission, there is a substan- Senator Abetz—On the point of order, tive difference between an explanation and an Madam President, could I invite you to take answer to a question, and I think that is what Senator Alston’s suggestion of considering the standing order seeks to differentiate. this in some detail? The reading of the stand- Unless that differentiation is made, it would ing orders by Senator Faulkner to you was, seem that vast parts of standing order 74(5) with respect, quite ingenuous, because he did are quite irrelevant for the purposes of this not continue then to read on subparagraphs particular type of proceeding in this chamber. (a), (b) and (c). They are very pertinent, The PRESIDENT—I confirm my previous particularly subparagraph (b) which states: ruling and I base it in particular on the situa- (b) the senator may, at the conclusion of the tion that occurred with Senator Ellison on 19 explanation— May 1995: that the senator is entitled to move not answer to the question, but— the motion that he moved at the end. move without notice— Senator O’BRIEN—In speaking to the That the Senate take note of the explanation; or motion, the minister in fact would recall that (c) in the event that the minister does not provide I raised the matter of these outstanding an- an explanation... swers to questions on notice nos. 1118 and Quite clearly, with respect, Madam President, 1129 with him on 12 May. The minister the minister did get up and provide an explan- advised the Senate: ation. Whether you like the explanation or not As I understand it every endeavour will be made is, with respect, irrelevant to the ruling you to comply with that request as soon as possible. are required to make. The issue before the It is now 26 May. Mr Reith and his depart- chair is simply whether or not an explanation ment have had before them question no. 1118 has been provided. for 57 days and question no. 1129 for 49 3226 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 days. Question no. 1118, among other things, heritage, political activities and former em- goes to the issue of expenditure of public ployment situation. Then there was Minter funds by the government on consultancies as Ellison, BGC Media, Corrs Chambers West- part of its waterfront strategy. It goes to the garth and the National Institute of Labour question of any new consultancies that the Studies. government has commissioned, in addition to In November at the estimates hearing, Dr the ones already on the public record. It goes Greg Feeney from the Maritime Transport to the question of final expenditure figures on Division of the Department of Workplace these consultancies. Relations and Small Business gave the com- These consultancies have received an mittee details of those consultancies. He said enormous amount of media coverage since that Dr Davies was paid $96,376.88. He also their existence was revealed in the estimates said that Dr Webster was paid a sum of process last year. They have been very much money under the same sort of consultancy a live issue for this government. It is not as arrangement of $95,254.42. if the Department of Workplace Relations and Senator Hill—I raise a point of order. It Small Business or the Department of Trans- relates to the motion that is being debated. port and Regional Development would be Having accepted your ruling, Madam Presi- required to search archives out at Fyshwick or dent, that there was not an explanation and Mitchell to find the information I require. I the senator is therefore entitled to move a am confident it is at their fingertips. motion, he is nevertheless constrained in the Let me remind the Senate of just how long motion he can move. It has to be with regard this list is and who those consultants were. to the minister’s failure to provide either an There was the ACIL 1 consultancy with Dr answer or an explanation. David Trebeck, a former policy director of the I do not want to give you hints or anything, Liberal Party and NFF officer, as the lead but he could move a censure or some other consultant and Mr Paul Houlihan, a consultant form of punishment against the minister, or he to Mr Reith on industrial relations and former could presumably move a motion that the NFF officer, employed as a subcontractor. question be answered within a specified Senator Ian Macdonald—I raise a point of period of time. But he has not done that. He order. I draw your attention to standing order has moved an unrelated motion and that is 187, Madam President. that certain documents be tabled, as I under- The PRESIDENT—The senator needs to stand, within a particular time. be relevant to his motion. I would suggest to you that the standing Senator Ian Macdonald—He is reading the order as it has been drawn is not so wide as speech. to allow him to move a motion that is not The PRESIDENT—Certainly, the senator directly related to the question he has asked. should not be reading a speech. It is a different subject matter. Senator O’BRIEN—That is fine, Madam Senator Faulkner—On the same point of President. I am not reading any speeches, just order, Madam President. Senator Hill in his as no coalition senators read speeches. There rather flimsy point of order talks about certain is a second ACIL report known as the ACIL documents being laid on the table. What he 2 report and again Dr Trebeck was in charge. failed to apprise you of—which I am sure you But this time the pollster Mark Textor picked are aware of anyway—is that these documents up some work, along with Jonathan Gaul, the that he describes as ‘certain documents’ are Liberal strategist. Then we had the Webster in fact answers to questions on notice nos. consultancy. Dr Webster was an employee of 1118 and 1129. the former Tasmanian Liberal Premier, Robin As I understand it, Madam President, you Gray, and an employee of Andrew Peacock. might be able to inform the Senate as to the His offsider was Dr John Davies, who was question before the chair, but I understand almost identical in terms of his political that Senator O’Brien—and I stand to be Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3227 corrected if I am wrong and I will certainly told that the Corrs Westgarth contract was withdraw this comment if I am wrong—has worth $89,956.28 and the Webb contract had moved that there be laid on the table by a a return value of $23,871. What did BGC particular time answers to the questions that Media get?—$8,857.3. The contract with the are subject to this matter pursuant to standing National Institute of Labour Studies returned order 74(5). them $15,375 exactly. If I am wrong in that, perhaps we can move The process involved in letting those con- on. That is my understanding and you could tracts was far from normal, as senators would perhaps apprise the Senate and Senator Hill recall. It was highly unusual to let one con- of that being the case. It is not certain docu- tract not through the proper tender process but ments; it is, in fact, answers to questions. simply at the direction of a minister. But as The PRESIDENT—It is certainly open to Dr Feeney told us, the Department of Trans- anyone else who participates in the debate to port was directed by the then Minister for challenge whether the documents in question Transport, Mr Sharp, to engage Dr Webster relate to the questions that are asked or not. because that was what he was told to do. But there is no difficulty in asking that Then, apparently, Dr Webster was given documents that do relate to the questions be authority to hire anyone he liked, and Mr laid on the table under this provision. That Sharp, of course, was going to pay for this. has happened previously, as I indicated, on 19 I want to quote from Dr Feeney’s evidence May 1995 when the Senate did pass a resolu- at the estimates hearings because this is an tion that documents be laid on the table in important point. When I asked about the these circumstances. contracts that were let at the request of Dr Senator Faulkner interjecting— Webster and whether they were let specifical- ly at his request, the answer was: ‘Yes’. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator When I asked whether this was at the direc- O’Brien is speaking to his motion and when tion of the minister’s office, the answer was: he has finished, others may speak to it and ‘Yes’. He also added that the approvals were challenge what he is putting, if they wish. It subject to the minister’s office approving might help if Senator O’Brien re-read the them. So Dr Feeney said that Dr Webster told original motion he is putting. the department who he wanted, and the Senator O’BRIEN—I am quite happy to. department signed them up. I gave it to Senator Faulkner so that he would Senators would be aware that originally Dr be fully apprised of the facts when he spoke Webster had been employed as a subcontrac- to that point of order. The motion was: tor to David Trebeck under the ACIL consul- That there be laid on the table by no later than tancy. Apparently they did not get on so he immediately after question time on Thursday 28 refused to work with this former Liberal Party May 1998 the answers to questions on notice Nos 1118 and 1129. policy director. He was able to get one of his friends, a Mr Peter Wilson, who worked in Senator Faulkner—Which is what I said, Mr Reith’s office, to organise a contract of you dopes. his own. That led to a payment to Dr Webster The PRESIDENT—Order! It is not helpful of $95,000. Dr Webster then organised a to have this shouting across the chamber. contract for one of his old colleagues, Dr Senator O’BRIEN—As I was saying, Davies, and he received $96,000. It is nice to another of the consultancies related to Minter have friends in high places. Ellison. They had a contract which com- So there was no tender process for all this menced on 21 August and concluded on 3 money to be paid out. He just picked who he October, and received for that the principal wanted. The department was required, at the sum of $151,375. As at 12 November we direction of the minister’s office, to sign them were told that by Dr Feeney. But he did say up and to put them on the payroll. So it is at that time that he had not received all of the doubly important in this case that there be invoices; there were a few to come. We were proper scrutiny of exactly how this consul- 3228 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 tancy money was spent. Given that this $162,567. It is clear that it is in the public money has been spent, we also ought to be interest that the minister provide the Senate able to look at the process and see that proper with the amounts of money spent on all these process was not followed in the appointment contracts. It is also clear that in the public of these consultants. interest the cost of any other consultancies The Senate and the community do have a and the nature of those consultancies— legitimate right to be satisfied that a million Senator Ian Macdonald—Madam Presi- dollars worth of taxpayers’ money was spent dent, I take a point of order. Senator O’Brien on what the contracts required them to be is quite clearly breaching standing order 187. spent on. We also have the right to be satis- Not in the wildest of dreams could anyone fied that we, as taxpayers, got our money’s suggest that he is referring to copious notes; worth out of these deals. That is what ques- he is clearly turning over page after page. tion No. 1118 goes to. Senator O’Brien obviously is not capable of In relation to all of these consultancies, and making a speech without reading it but can any others we do not yet know about, we we perhaps save time and just get him to want to know the details of each contract. We table the speech—it is all written—and we want to know whether there was an actual can go on to some more important business. written report. If there was a report, we want The PRESIDENT—Senator O’Brien, I to know how comprehensive it was. We want draw your attention to the standing orders to know what the subject matter was so that about reading speeches. we can be satisfied that the terms of that Senator O’BRIEN—Madam President, you contract have been met. We also want to have drawn them to my attention before and know what happened with each of the reports the rather pale, insignificant comment that the that arose from the consultancies. Lastly, we senator makes I think is undeserving of want to know what the final cost was. comment, because I am clearly referring to We have already been provided with infor- matters of substantial detail that do require mation about contract costs in these matters, reference to copious notes. I go on, Madam but there now appears to be some confusion President, accepting what you say. This matter over the costs given to the Senate to date. The also goes to the details of the government’s minister, I am sure, would be aware that the consultative processes with the waterfront proposed cost of the first ACIL report—the industry with regard to its waterfront strategy. ACIL 1 report as it is being called—was to be Again, those are matters of legitimate public $60,000. We have been told that that blew out interest. to $80,000. Now we find, in response to I want now to go to the question of another question on notice—the answer to Minister Reith and his actions in refusing to which appears in the House of Representa- answer question No. 1129. The cost to the tives Hansard of 14 May—that the cost of the taxpayer for the employment of Dr Webster ACIL 1 contract is now out to $118,761. It is and Dr Davies was something approaching about double the original estimate, and $200,000. Dr Webster’s consultancy ran from $40,000 more than the so-called final cost that 30 July to 3 October but we are told he we were given. commenced work before that date. He was In relation to the Minter Ellison consul- paid $1,000 a day and in addition he was paid tancy, we were told last November that its expenses. cost was about $151,000. That there were a The contract with Dr Davies commenced on few invoices for some minor costs still out- the same day as that of Dr Webster; that is, standing was the codicil added to that re- on 30 July. He apparently received the same sponse. The estimates committee was then daily rate and apparently the terms of refer- provided with an answer on notice advising ence for both consultants were the same, but that the final Minter Ellison cost was Dr Webster was the leader and Dr Davies was $158,283. Then we received another final the assistant. We also know that, in addition costing for that contract and it had gone up to to the $1,000 a day consultancy fee, there Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3229 were other costs including travel costs and because there is no good reason why he incidentals. We are also able to know that Dr should not be able to do so. Davies paid his bills and was reimbursed Senator Lightfoot—Madam President, I while Dr Webster submitted invoices. We take a point of order. Under section 168(2) of know that the payment of incidentals was the standing orders, I respectfully ask that you subject to a review by the department. In fact, direct Senator O’Brien to table the documents we do know that Dr Feeney personally vetted from which he was reading. these claims. The PRESIDENT—It has previously been So the information sought by question 1129 held that speech notes used do not constitute was clearly in the knowledge of the Depart- a document under this section. ment of Transport and Regional Development and is now, I assume, still with Dr Feeney, Senator Lightfoot—Further to that point of but in the Department of Workplace Relations order, Madam President: that is not a speech and Small Business. I believe that the Senate note in my view, although I do take notice of is entitled to be satisfied that the money paid that direction. What Senator O’Brien quoted out to the two consultants was properly spent. from clearly were documents. For the duration The money was paid by the department of of his speech he was quoting from a docu- transport because it was directed to do so by ment; they were not, literally, speech notes. the minister. After Mr Sharp was directed by Senator Cooney—On that point of order, Mr Reith to engage Dr Webster he was told Madam President, standing order 168 relates by ministerial staffer Mr Wilson to sign the to documents quoted by a senator. It does not contract. talk about a document quoted from. That Question 1129 asks the minister to provide refers to the situation where there is a docu- all invoices that relate to these contracts, ment that you want to use to prove your case because that is the only way the Senate can as a matter of evidence and that is the sort of be properly satisfied that this money has been document that that clause refers to. I think properly spent. The question also seeks what is being complained of is that Senator information about the relationship with the O’Brien is reading from a document. Department of Workplace Relations and Small Senator Abetz interjecting— Business. As the Senate was told on the last occasion I raised this matter, I do not chase Senator Cooney—Even if he had read from answers to questions on notice in every case a document, standing order 168 would not when the time elapses that is allowed under apply because that standing order applies to standing orders for the question to be an- a situation where Senator O’Brien may have swered. I do so when the matter is important. quoted from a letter or a document that he says supports his case, and that should be I believe I have demonstrated that this tabled so that people can see that the docu- matter is important. There is a significant ment is accurate. But that is not the situation amount of information which is clearly avail- here. What he has been accused of, in the able to the department and can be provided. light of what was said earlier, is that he was As I indicated earlier, these questions have reading his speech. He is not allowed to read been outstanding for 57 and 49 days respec- his speech, but that is not what standing order tively. There is no good reason why the 168 refers to. It refers to a different situation answer should be withheld from the Senate. than what is being complained of here. In terms of providing the information, it is clearly information which the department The PRESIDENT—Certainly there were must have in order to have been able to pay two points of order taken earlier in the speech these moneys and there can be no good alleging that he was reading speech notes, and reason advanced as to why the questions I drew to the senator’s attention that he ought should not have been answered. Hence, I not to be reading a speech using notes. But propose in my motion that the minister be there have certainly been rulings previously directed to table his answers tomorrow, that this section does not relate to speech 3230 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 notes but does relate to documents being The PRESIDENT—There are a number of quoted from. other precedents. The one I quoted that occurred on 19 May 1995 is just one of the Senator Abetz—Madam President, I wish more recent ones. to raise a further point of order, if I may. Senator Abetz—On the point of order, Senator Conroy—The same point of order? Madam President: I asked you whether or not you would consider the matter in more detail Senator Abetz—No, on a different matter, and return to the chamber. I am not asking for and it relates to the matter that was raised a ruling now. If you will not, that is fine. But earlier in relation to standing order 74, where I think, with respect, I am entitled to the I had invited you to consider the matter in courtesy of a response from you as to whether further detail and report back to the chamber. or not you accept my respectful submission to There was no direct answer given. Madam you that there is a matter of some substance President, I direct your attention to the Hans- and whether or not you are prepared to ard of 11 May 1995, where you refer to the consider it in more detail. Madam President, precedent of Senator Ellison and Senator you refer to the Senator Ellison situation as a McMullan. The reality there is that no ruling precedent. With respect, in the absence of a was made on that occasion by the chair ruling, it cannot be asserted to be a precedent. because nobody raised a point of order. I would have thought that would be a fairly Just because a procedure is adopted in the fundamental point. absence of a point of order does not make it The PRESIDENT—I had referred previ- an appropriate procedure, just as much as, for ously to the fact that there had been others example, if Senator Conroy interjects an since 1988. If the Senate wishes, I am happy unparliamentary word and it finds its way into for this matter to be adjourned for 15 minutes the Hansard. If nobody raises a point of order and come back. against it and it is in the Hansard, that does Senator Abetz—I do not think I have made not clothe it with the authority of being my position clear. parliamentary. The fact is, nobody raised a The PRESIDENT—I think you have, point of order to stop the Senate from behav- Senator. ing in a manner contrary to the standing orders. Senator Abetz—I am not asking that this matter be adjourned. I am not asking you to The precedent that was being relied upon, delay this particular proceeding. I am just in my respectful submission, is not a ruling suggesting, with respect, that it may be by the Senate in any shape or form. If we appropriate to give detailed consideration to turn to page 473 of Odgers, there is talk about these provisions to ascertain exactly what they the established practice if an explanation is mean. At the end of the precedents referred to not forthcoming. The same paragraph tells us: in the eighth edition of Odgers there is the The practice of ministers leaving the chamber very telling sentence about the practice of immediately at the end of question time has meant ministers leaving the chamber immediately at that on several occasions the relevant minister has the end of question time and not being pres- not been present to give an explanation ent to give an explanation. I would have thought, with respect, that this is a matter of In this case, we clearly did have a minister in substance and that it would be appropriate to the chamber giving an explanation. All I am give some clarification for the benefit of all submitting to you, Madam President, is not to senators in the future. I do not seek that change your ruling in relation to this. But I clarification today. A week, a fortnight or a would seek to convince you that, at least on month would suffice. a prima facie basis, the matter that Senator Alston has raised—and I have raised as The PRESIDENT—I will look at the well—is a matter of substance worthy of your matter again; re-read Odgers and confer with further detailed consideration. That is my only you, Senator Abetz. plea to you. Question resolved in the affirmative. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3231

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT 1996 they put some recommendations to the NOTICE government showing the top 100 taxpayers were avoiding up to $800 million through Trusts: Taxation family tax structures. That is nothing more Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.59 p.m.)— than blatant tax avoidance. I move: Senator Ian Macdonald—Why didn’t you That the Senate take note of the answer given by do something about it? the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp), to a question without notice asked by Senator Cook Senator CONROY—After the election we today, relating to taxation on family trusts. introduced a number of bills to do with this It is hard to take note of an answer given by very issue. One of those opposing is shouting, Senator Kemp because waffle is pretty hard ‘Why didn’t you do something about it?’ Bills to take note of. were introduced in parliament, Senator Ian Senator Alston—Madam President, on a Macdonald. point of order: Senator Conroy has ruled The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address the himself out of order. chair, please, Senator Conroy. Senator CONROY—Sit down! Senator CONROY—What happened after Senator Alston—Madam President, I ask the election when the coalition was elected? you to accept his ruling. With no explanation whatsoever they dumped The PRESIDENT—I would suggest that one of the bills that would have dealt with you make your remarks totally relevant to the this problem. They let it slip out. There was issue under discussion, Senator. no explanation whatsoever. What did we see in the recent tax office statistics? One in four Senator CONROY—I am taking note of trusts posted tax losses despite having a com- the waffle. Senator Kemp made some sort of bined income of $26 billion—$26 billion and play, claiming that the Labor Party had in they made a loss! They have got to be pretty actual fact ignored the issue of trusts. I hope badly managed—$26 billion in income and you stay, Senator Ian Macdonald, because you they made a loss. There are 400,000 trusts are someone with a personal interest in this. involved. That means almost 1.8 million You might be interested in this debate. Australians received distributions from these The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! trusts. These are blatant examples of tax Senator Conroy, would you like to address the avoidance and spivery. chair, please? I am glad some of those opposite have Senator CONROY—Certainly, Madam stayed in the chamber because what we have Deputy President. Senator Kemp talked about seen in this government is John Anderson, how the Labor Party had ignored trusts. ‘It all Alexander Downer, Tim Fischer, Robert Hill, happened while you were in government,’ is Ian McLachlan, Daryl Williams, Richard his standard defence of the inaction of this Alston, Jocelyn Newman, Chris Ellison, John government on this issue. In 1993, just before Herron, Judi Moylan, Warwick Parer— the 1993 election, the tax office informed the then Treasurer, Ralph Willis, that the biggest The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator, single growing problem with tax avoidance in would you like to refer to these people by this country was family trusts. their correct titles, please? What happened after we won the 1993 Senator CONROY—Have I got to name election? We commissioned a number of them all again? reports. We asked the tax office to have a Senator Faulkner—And others. look at it and make suggestions. After a lengthy examination of the statistics involved Senator CONROY—And others have all and a long look at the spivery that had been got family trusts. No wonder the family trust going on, they came up with 12 recommenda- debate has been allowed to slip under the tions. Not long before the last election in carpet on that side. 3232 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Senator Ian Macdonald—You didn’t Senator IAN MACDONALD—As the mention me. previous speaker said, I have a family trust. Senator CONROY—I would love to, I think, from memory, I entered into mine in Senator Macdonald. But thank you for nomi- the years of the Whitlam government—that is nating yourself. There are 105,069 trusts. how long I have had mine. I think most of the They have a total business income of $26.2 people for whom I acted in my legal practice billion and they declared a loss. That means in a farming community in North Queensland there was no tax payable on the income that had family trusts and have done so from those was earned and distributed to the beneficiar- days. I and a lot of other Australians have had ies, some of whom are probably on that side them since 1972 quite legally. It was done in of the chamber. They paid no tax on it be- conjunction with the law. cause they have been able to take advantage Senator Conroy—It is spivery. of the trust distribution laws. We know that Senator IAN MACDONALD—It is 33,956 trusts—that is, less than 10 per cent of spivery? Senator, why didn’t Mr Whitlam’s trusts—had a taxable income of more than government do something about it? Why $100,000. Only 10 per cent paid tax, despite didn’t the Labor government do something the total income of the trusts being $118 bil- about it? lion. The 33,956 trusts had an income of $118 billion and only 10 per cent of those poor Then we move to that fateful year—I think trusts could manage to pay tax on over it was 1983—when the Labor Party won an $100,000. election. Regrettably, they won a few elec- tions after that. I think you won five elections Family trusts are nothing more than tax on the trot, didn’t you? Why didn’t you do avoidance vehicles. They use income splitting something about this great problem that you and they use the lower marginal tax rates— have now identified—all this chicanery? What that is what they are about. This government did you call it? What were the adjectives you has promised to protect family trusts. They used? Have you forgotten? are going to protect family trusts. They are going to put a tax on food and they are going The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT to put a tax on health. (Time expired) (Senator Watson)—Through the chair, please. Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Senator IAN MACDONALD—Thank you, for the Environment) (4.05 p.m.)—The previ- Mr Acting Deputy President. I was just trying ous speaker, Senator Conroy, might indicate to get some assistance from the senator on the to us some of the taxation provisions for trade terrible adjectives that he used to describe unions. Do you know whether they pay tax these horrible family trusts. If they are as bad out of their huge earnings? If you want to get as you say they are, why didn’t your govern- into a debate about that, we might have a ment do something about them in the 13 long look at the fact that trade unions do not pay years that you were in power? tax. That might be an interesting question. Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator Heffernan interjecting— Senator IAN MACDONALD—Give me those adjectives again so I can quote them Senator IAN MACDONALD—Thank you, back to you. What did you say? Why didn’t Senator Heffernan—they fund the Labor Party you do something? Senator Heffernan tells me entirely. They are absolute captives of the that one of the reasons might have been that trade union movement. That is why the Labor Mr Keating had a family trust and that as Party will never look at the taxation of trade Treasurer or Prime Minister he did not want unions. It demonstrates the shallowness of the to do anything about it. But Mr Keating did Labor Party on this as on any matter they nothing wrong. He acted quite within the law seek to raise on this particular issue. and he did what any sensible Australian Senator Conroy—Do you have a family would do to arrange their affairs properly. trust? Senator Murphy, one of your colleagues I Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3233 think, has a family trust—nothing wrong with in the productive side of our economy. Equal- that. Good for him! He is one of the few ly, levels of taxation for individuals, corporate people on your side who shows a bit of entities and other legally sanctioned arrange- acumen, a bit of sense and a bit of under- ments such as trusts should, and one presumes standing of the laws that the Labor Party will, be part of that overall debate—in that government implemented and managed over context, the future role of trusts is part of the 13 long years. continuing debate. There is nothing magic Senator Conroy—Effective tax planning, about trusts—nothing new. Family trusts have is it? become a very popular tax minimisation device in this country in the last eight or nine The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— years. Senator Conroy, I am going to pause here. I am going to allow you to interject, if I may, The previous government was moving to Mr Acting Deputy President. eliminate many of those artificial and con- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— trived arrangements when it was derailed by Through the chair. the previous opposition in late 1995. The Senator IAN MACDONALD—I know it current government went a small way to is improper, but I am just going to pause and eliminating some of those abuses with the wonder a bit myself why it was that the Labor Taxation Laws Amendment (Trust Loss and government, in 13 long years, did not do Other Deductions) Bill of late 1997 and early something about these family trusts that 1998, but it did not seek to remedy the Senator Conroy has spent the previous five critical problems in trusts, and two defects shallow minutes describing. I will just ponder spring readily to mind. Firstly, trusts, properly to allow Senator Conroy to interject. structured and utilised, can be used to minimise tax exposure, particularly for those Senator Conroy—Why did you withdraw who earn a substantial part of their income the legislation from this parliament that we from investments. Secondly, hundreds of put in the last one? thousands of people have sought to use family Senator IAN MACDONALD—I do not trust arrangements to change their tax profile. hear Senator Conroy yet. I know I am a bit All too often people simply use the establish- slow—I confess that. But if it is so bad now, ment of family trusts as a device to alter their our government is doing something about it. status as PAYE taxpayers and hence enjoy the We are looking at it. Senator Ian Campbell, lower tax regime enjoyed by trusts. Senator Kemp and Mr Costello are looking at some of the worst rorts in the tax system that This avoidance, minimisation, re-arrange- your government allowed to be perpetrated ment—call it what you will—naturally has a over 13 years. My colleague mentions Mr serious impact on government and its role in Keating and some of his Danpork trusts. We the community. It inevitably leads to argu- are looking at those trusts that your govern- ments about the appropriate tax mix, the ment allowed to be perpetrated. (Time ex- breakdown of the tax system, haemorrhaging pired) of the tax system. This, in turn, is used as Senator BISHOP (Western Australia) (4.10 justification by the government parties, the p.m.)—I also wish to take note of the answers corporate sector and elements of the welfare to questions asked by Senator Faulkner, lobby for the introduction of new and addi- Senator Conroy and Senator Cook. It is clear tional taxes on consumption. It is a very that the issue of tax reform will be a central simple equation that is put in this debate: element at the forthcoming federal election. middle and high income earners use trusts to Tax reform, of course, encompasses a range reduce tax payments; the scale of such use is of issues: the GST; the appropriate mix sufficient to imperil the existing taxation between tax on income and tax on expendi- system; to maintain the integrity of the new ture; the role of tax in savings policy; and the system we impose a new tax, a GST on role of tax as a driver or initiator of change consumption; and finally, everyone is treated 3234 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 equally because all goods and services are know through your own experience in our taxed equally at point of sale. time in opposition, the Labor Party seemed to What is so bad, so offensive and so inequi- speak a lot about cracking down on tax table about this trust/GST mix is the whole- avoiders. Every time they tried to say how sale transfer of tax liability and tax responsi- they were going to balance some future bility from high income earners—high net budget—something that they were singularly worth individuals; those with significant unsuccessful in doing in 10 out of 13 years in income producing assets—to those at the government—they would have this sort of bottom end of the food or taxation chain. magic pudding, called ‘the cracking down on When redistribution occurs, there is indeed a tax avoidance magic pudding.’ They were progressive tax system, but it is the reverse of always saying, ‘Somehow we will balance our common understanding. The redistribution is budget by cracking down on tax avoiders.’ from low and middle earners to high income Labor were very unsuccessful because they earners. For want of a better description, it is were either lazy or incompetent in govern- a perversion. ment. They always spoke about cracking Who are today’s low income earners, we down on tax avoidance and now, in opposi- ask? Low skilled workers, many single in- tion, they are saying, ‘We would have got come families, many single income parents, around to doing that in the 14th year,’ and welfare and pension recipients, casual and ‘Look at the legislation we brought in in the part-time employees. All of these groups dying minutes.’ It was not even five minutes currently spend 100 per cent of their income to midnight. As you would recall, Mr Acting on consumption. Net household debt, figures Deputy President, that legislation was brought suggest, is approaching 200 per cent of in at about 30 seconds to midnight, just income through borrowing. The government before they were turfed out of office. proposal is to whack these people with an- You have to look at Labor’s record on tax other tax—a GST on every dollar they reform and attacking tax avoidance; they spend—and in one fell swoop reduce their really did nothing. They talk about trusts, and disposable income by 10 per cent, 12 per cent Senator Bishop from the state of Western or 15 per cent via the GST. Why? Because so Australia has said that these trust structures many hundreds of thousands of individuals became very popular over the last eight, nine use trusts to alter their tax liability. They alter or 10 years. I remind him that, even though it so much, we are told, that the future of the he may not have been a part of the previous entire taxation system is in peril. Because so government, the Labor Party was in power for many do not pay a share—their fair and all of that decade, and that during that time equitable share—the system haemorrhages and they did not do anything about trusts—not in insufficient revenue is received by govern- 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989 or ment to fund necessary government purposes, even 1990. They did not do anything about and because of that we have to re-jig the them in 1991 or, as I recall, in 1992. In 1993, whole system. Deliberate evasion, deliberate as I said, at 30 seconds to midnight in minimisation, avoidance through family December, they said, ‘Oh, all of a sudden trusts—now in excess of 300,000 or 400,000. we’ve got this bill.’ The bill, of course, was (Time expired) too little and too late as far as the Labor Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Party’s credibility on tax reform is concerned. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Can I say what the Labor Party’s concept Treasurer) (4.15 p.m.)—I would like to speak of tax reform really is? It is well and truly on to the motion moved by Senator Conroy in the record. The Australian people do need to respect of answers to questions without understand what Labor means when they talk notice. I found it quite amazing that Senator about tax reform. It is very hard for Labor to Cook and other Labor Party senators would get a policy up because every now and then ask questions of Senator Kemp on cracking one of their spokespeople will raise a policy down on tax avoidance because, as you would and have it quickly knocked off because they Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3235 realise that it has not been discussed or in Australian history. They really have no- because suddenly it is unpopular. where to go. They spent 13 years in govern- Labor’s form over the years is well doc- ment and were not prepared to crack down on umented in terms of the new taxes they trusts. (Time expired) brought in. They promised not to tax capital Question resolved in the affirmative. gains, and of course they taxed them. They promised no changes to the tax system and no PETITIONS increases, and they had this trifecta or what- The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for ever it was—that tax would not increase as a presentation as follows: proportion of GDP. But they drove it from 22 per cent up to 27 per cent in a short time and Uranium still managed, with all of the tax increases, to To the honourable the President and members of continue increasing the deficit. the Senate in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of Australia Labor’s records on deficits, tax and interest respectfully showeth: rates go hand in hand. They drove deficits up. That your petitioners request that the Australian Their record on deficits averaged $12.2 billion Government take steps immediately to stop the in current dollar terms. This was not for one, mining and export of uranium two or three years; the Labor Party in govern- And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever ment ran $12.2 billion deficits for 10 years pray. out of 13. The average deficit that Labor ran was $12.2 billion. It is a remarkable achieve- by The President (from 246 citizens). ment. Uranium Labor Party people may wonder why they To the Honourable the President and Members of get tagged as the high interest rate, high the Senate in the Parliament assembled. deficit, high tax party. It is because they have The petition of the undersigned strongly opposes got so much form. If you had the sort of form any attempts by the Australian government to mine that these people had on deficits, interest rates uranium at the Jabiluka and Koongara sites in the and taxes, you could pick them in every race. World Heritage Listed Area of the Kakadu National You would not have to get the form guide Park or any other proposed or current operating out; you would not have to get advice from site. anyone; you would not have to go around and Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any talk to other punters, the trainers and jockeys. intentions by the Australian government to support You would say, ‘These guys are absolute, the nuclear industry via any mining, enrichment guaranteed winners in the race for high and sale of uranium. interest rates, high debt, high inflation and by Senator Bartlett (from 123 citizens). high taxes every single time they enter the race.’ Gender Identity To the Honourable the President and Members of Senator Faulkner wants carbon taxes and the Senate in the Parliament assembled: environmental taxes; other Labor people want bed taxes—Premier Carr has already intro- The petition of the undersigned shows: That Australian citizens oppose social, legal and eco- duced that. The jobs levy was a beauty, a nomic discrimination against people on the basis of really good idea—let’s put a levy on jobs. their sexuality or transgender identity and that such Brian Howe wants polluter pays and conges- discrimination is unacceptable in a democratic tion taxes; Wayne Swan wants some luxury society. taxes; Lindsay Tanner wants inheritance Your petitioners request that the Senate should: taxes; Martin Ferguson wants more wealth pass the Australian Democrats Bill to make it taxes; and Gareth Evans says ‘let’s have some unlawful to discriminate or vilify on the basis of higher taxes.’ They are very good on taxes; sexuality or transgender identify so that such they increase taxes massively. They had the discrimination or vilification be open to redress at biggest deficits in Australian history and, as a national level. we know, they had the highest interest rates by Senator Bartlett (from 469 citizens). 3236 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Medicines Higher Education To the Honourable the President and Mem- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- bers of the Senate assembled in Parliament. tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian This petition of certain citizens of Australia Democrats)—I give notice that, on the next draws to the attention of the Senate, decisions by day of sitting, I shall move: the Howard Government affecting the price and That the Senate— availability of medicines. (a) calls on the Minister for Employment, The decisions to remove (delist) a number of Education, Training and Youth Affairs (Dr drugs from the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme Kemp) to reject proposals for the Common- and also the decision to pressure people to switch wealth to offer Higher Education Contribu- to cheaper, older and less effective drugs, will tion Scheme-style loans to upfront fee- disadvantage the less well off in our community paying undergraduate students and private who will not be able to afford the best most universities; suitable drugs, the drugs their doctors have pre- (b) condemns the Government’s funding cuts to scribed for them. university operating grants of 6 per cent Your petitioners therefore pray that the Senate over 5 years; and recognises that these changes are unfair. We call on (c) supports increased public funding of the the Government to reverse these decisions immedi- public higher education systems. ately. by Senator West (from 81 citizens). One Nation Party Petitions received. Senator BROWN (Tasmania)—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall NOTICES OF MOTION move: That the Senate Consideration of Legislation (a) notes the obnoxious policies of the One Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Nation Party on issues such as race, immi- Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the gration, gun control and the environment; Treasurer)—I give notice that, on the next day and of sitting, I shall move: (b) supports the Greens and citizens action groups which will rally for a multicultural, That the government business orders of the day inclusive and non-violent Australia in relating to the following bills may be taken together Brisbane on 7 June 1998 at 11 am in King for their remaining stages: George Square. Company Law Review Bill 1997. Pork Industry Managed Investments Bill 1997. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland)—I give Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall References Committee move: Senator HOGG (Queensland)—I give That the Senate— notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall (a) notes that: move: (i) Australian pork producers have suffered That the following matters be referred to the a $62 million fall in income since the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Minister for Primary Industries and Ener- Committee for inquiry and report by 4 November gy (Mr Anderson) lifted import bans on 1998: pig meat from Canada and Denmark, and (a) the implications of India’s nuclear tests and (ii) for individual producers, the average loss the nuclear weapon and ballistic missile amounts to $17 000 for producers nation- programs of both India and Pakistan for ally and $26 000 for producers in regional and international security; and Queensland; and (b) the Australian Government’s role in interna- (b) calls on the Federal Government to: tional efforts to constrain nuclear weapon (i) instigate a moratorium on pork imports and ballistic missile proliferation in south from Canada and Denmark until the Asia. Australian industry has recovered, Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3237

(ii) increase the pork industry assistance (iii) that Mr Beattie is reported as saying, on package from $10 million over 3 years to page 1 of the Courier Mail of 22 Decem- $20 million over 3 years to boost funds ber 1997, ‘I’ll give you a clear answer. I for researching export development op- support what came out of the Senate portunities for Australian pork and to because that is what the Australian people investigate whether low interest loans have said through their representatives’, should be part of the package, and (iii) use all upcoming trade forums to push for (iv) the absence of any statement from Mr reciprocal access for Australian pork to Beattie that he will not support the vali- overseas markets, and dation of pastoral leases in the State of (iv) introduce a 10 per cent tariff on manufac- Queensland that were arguably unlawfully tured Canadian pork imports, which is issued by the former Goss Government; legal and allowable under World Trade and Organization provisions if the domestic (b) calls on the Australian Labor Party in industry is being damaged by imports. Queensland and in other States and Territor- ies to immediately rule out using powers Introduction of Legislation they may receive, if elected, from the enactment of the bill to extinguish or impair Senator ALLISON (Victoria)—I give native title rights through state legislation. notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: Australian Conservation Foundation That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for Senator ALLISON (Victoria)—I give an Act to prohibit the mining, extraction, treatment notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall and transport of any uranium or uranium ore in or move: near any property in Australia in the World Heri- tage List, and for related purposes. Uranium That the Senate— Mining in or near Australian World Heritage (a) notes: Properties (Prohibition) Bill 1998. (i) the appointment of scientist Mr Don Henry as executive director of the Aus- Native Title tralian Conservation Foundation, Senator WOODLEY (Queensland)—I give (ii) Mr Henry’s credentials, which include notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall negotiating the world’s largest tropical move: forests protection package in the Amazon That the Senate— on behalf of the World Wildlife Fund for Nature with the World Bank, and other (a) notes: substantial forest conservation gains in (i) that should the Native Title Amendment Papua New Guinea and Indonesia, and Bill 1997, the Wik 10-point plan, be (iii) Mr Henry’s comment that the rest of the passed into law, it will grant significant world listens to Australia because of its powers on the State Governments to: past reputation with important environ- (A) upgrade pastoral leases to permit di- mental initiatives; versification to the full range of activi- (b) congratulates Mr Henry on his appointment; ties defined as primary production, and (B) substitute the right to negotiate on (c) recognises that Australia does indeed have leased or reserved land with alternative an important role to play globally in show- procedures, ing environmental leadership for the benefit of future generations. (C) validate grants made after the Native Title Act came into effect and before Native Title the Wik decision, and Senator WOODLEY (Queensland)—I give (D) potentially extinguish or impair native title by activating the previous exclu- notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall sive possession act provisions, move: (ii) the failure of the Leader of the Opposi- That the Senate notes that: tion in Queensland (Mr Beattie) to rule (a) should the Native Title Amendment Bill out the legislative extinguishment of 1997, the Wik 10-point plan, be passed into native title if the 10-point plan becomes law, it will grant significant powers to the law, State Governments; 3238 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

(b) the Australian Democrats members of the (iii) that the disease is entirely curable in the Legislative Council of Western Australia, early stages by applications of mouthwash the Honourable Helen Hodgson MLC and and antiseptic cream, Norm Kelly MLC, have pledged to oppose (iv) that the group most susceptible to the the racially discriminatory 10-point plan in disease is severely malnourished children Western Australia; in developing countries, and (c) the Australian Democrats members of the (v) Oxfam’s valuable work in drawing to Legislative Council in South Australia, Ms worldwide public attention the ravages of Sandra Kanck, Mr Ian Gillfillen and Mr this disease; and Mike Elliott, have pledged to oppose the (b) urges the Federal Government to: racially discriminatory 10-point plan in South Australia; (i) as a matter of urgency, direct funds for treatment via AusAid’s Humanitarian (d) the Australian Democrats member of the Emergency Fund, and Legislative Council of New South Wales, the Honourable Elisabeth Kirkby, has (ii) increase funding in Australia’s aid budget pledged to opposed the racially discrimina- for African projects. tory 10-point plant in New South Wales; AUSTRALASIAN POLICE (e) the Australian Democrats candidates and MINISTERS’ COUNCIL members in Queensland have pledged to oppose the racially discriminatory 10-point Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western plan in Queensland; Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer)—I have in my hands some docu- (f) the Australian Democrats candidates and members in Victoria have pledged to oppose ments provided by Senator Vanstone that the racially discriminatory 10-point plan in were the subject of a return to order motion Victoria; passed by the Senate yesterday, I think moved (g) the Australian Democrats candidates and by Senator Bolkus. There is a short tabling members in Tasmania have pledged to statement which I seek leave to have incorpo- oppose the racially discriminatory 10-point rated in Hansard and I will then table the plan in Tasmania; document. (h) the Australian Democrats candidates and Leave granted. members in the Australian Capital Territory have pledged to oppose the racially discri- The statement read as follows— minatory 10-point plan in the Australian On behalf of the Minister for Justice (Senator Capital Territory; and Vanstone) and in response to the order for produc- tion of documents agreed to yesterday, I table a (i) the Australian Democrats candidates and report entitled Firearms Legislation in Australia. members in the Northern Territory have This report has been overtaken by events. It was pledged to oppose the racially discrimina- prepared by the Australian Institute of Criminology tory 10-point plan in the Northern Terri- (AIC), at the request of the Executive Member of tory. the Commonwealth Law Enforcement Board, in April 1997. An Associate of the AIC, Professor Health Kate Warner of the University of Tasmania, Senator ALLISON (Victoria)—I give prepared the report. notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall This report examines State and Territory legisla- move: tion to determine their level of compliance with the Australasian Police Ministers’ Council resolutions That the Senate— of 10 May, 17 July and 15 November 1996 respec- (a) notes: tively. The report is dated, it was completed prior to the (i) estimates by the World Health Organisa- end of the buyback scheme. There are also some tion that a bacterial infection, cancrum significant limitations to the report. It was commis- oris, known in Africa as the ‘noma’, is sioned in December 1996 and finalised in April killing 80 000 children a year in the 1997, it does not therefore reflect the current world’s poorest countries, position of jurisdictions. The report also limited its (ii) forecasts by Oxfam that the disease will examination of the level of compliance of jurisdic- kill up to half a million children in Niger tions with the National Agreement on Firearms by the year 2000, Control to State and Territory legislation in place Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3239 at the time, however some legislation was not yet Let me be completely clear on the issue of completed and further amendments to legislation firearms control, the Commonwealth will exercise were foreshadowed. all powers available to it to ensure that the National The report does not consider any administrative Agreement on Firearms Control is not watered practices or procedures that jurisdictions had put down. into place as part of their implementation of the COMMITTEES National Agreement on Firearms Control. There are also a number of omissions in the report, which Selection of Bills Committee combined with current administrative practices, present a very different level of compliance by Report some jurisdictions. Given these issues, the com- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (4.31 plexity and lack of direct comparability of firearms p.m.)—I present the seventh report of 1998 of legislation in each of the States and Territories, this report should not be seen as a definitive statement. the Standing Committee for the Selection of Bills. I move: It is relevant to note that the Prime Minister intended to raise the issue of State and Territory That the report be adopted. compliance with the National Agreement on I seek leave to have the report incorporated in Firearms Control at the Premiers’ Conference on 20 Hansard. (Quorum formed) May 1998. However abandonment of that meeting by the States and Territories has resulted in a Leave granted. number of initiatives being pursued. The report read as follows— In March, the Government amended the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations to further restrict REPORT NO. 7 OF 1998 the importation into Australia of semi-automatic 1. The Committee met on 26 May 1998. firearms. I have also written to all jurisdictions in April, expressing the Commonwealth’s concern and 2. The committee resolved: indicating that the matter was to be placed on the That the provisions of the following bills be agenda for the next meeting of the APMC. referred to committees:

Stage at which Legislation Bill title referred committee Reporting date Film Licensed Investment immediately Environment, Rec- 11 August 1998 Company Bill 1998 (see ap- reation, Communica- pendices 1 and 2 for a tions and the Arts statement of reasons for referral) Taxation Laws Amendment immediately Environment, Rec- 11 August 1998 (Film Licensed Investment reation, Communica- Company) Bill 1998 (see tions and the Arts appendix 2 for a statement of reasons for referral) Taxation Laws Amendment immediately Economics 25 June 1998 Bill (No. 4) 1998 (see ap- pendix 3 for a statement of reasons for referral) Trade Practices Amendment immediately Economics 23 June 1998 (Country of Origin Repre- sentations) Bill 1998 (see appendix 4 for a statement of reasons for referral) 3240 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

3. The Committee resolved to recommend—That Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- the following bills not be referred to commit- sideration tees: Provides for the establishment of a pilot scheme for . Customs Legislation (Anti-dumping Amend- the delivery of tax concessions to investors in the ments) Bill 1998 film industry and consideration needs to be given . Customs Tariff (Anti-Dumping) Amendment Bill to the adequacy of the level of the proposed tax 1998 deduction, to capital gains tax provisions which may be a disincentive to investment, and to wheth- . Fisheries Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) er this scheme will be effective in attracting more 1998 investment in Australian films. . Income Tax (Untainting Tax) Bill 1998 Possible submission or evidence from: . National Measurement Amendment Bill 1998 Australian Screen Directors Association (Mr Ian . Taxation Laws Amendment (Company Law Collie, Exec Director) Screen Producers Associa- Review) Bill 1998. tion of Australia (Mr Nick Heard, Exec Director) Australian Writers Guild (Ms Sue McGreedy, Exec The Committee recommends accordingly. Director) Movieco (Mr David Court, Director) 4. The committee deferred consideration of the Australian Film Commission Australian Film following bills to the next meeting: Finance Corporation Film Finances (Ms Sue Milliken, Manager) (deferred from meeting of 31 March 1998) Committee to which bill is to be referred: . Australian Hearing Services Reform Bill 1998 Environment, Recreation, Communications and the (deferred from meeting of 7 April 1998) Arts Legislation Committee . Telecommunications (Carrier Licence Charges) Possible hearing date(s): Amendment Bill 1998 Possible reporting date: As soon as practicable. (deferred from meeting of 12 May 1998) (signed) . Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Bill Vicki Bourne 1998 Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member (deferred from meeting of 26 May 1998) . Data-matching Program (Assistance and Tax) Amendment Bill 1998 Appendix 2 . Employee Protection (Wage Guarantee) Bill 1998 Name of bill: [No. 2] Film Licensed Investment Company Bill 1998 . Financial Sector Reform (Consequential Amend- ments) Bill 1998 Taxation Laws Amendment (Film Licensed Invest- ment Company) Bill 1998 . Wheat Marketing Legislation Amendment Bill 1998. Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- sideration 5. The committee considered a proposal to refer the provisions of the Electoral and Referendum The bills give the effect to a trial of a scheme of Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1998 (see appendix investment in the Australian film and television 5), and recommends that the provisions of the product. bill be referred to the Finance and Public The bills were introduced together and need to be Administration Legislation Committee. The reviewed conjointly committee did not reach a decision on a Possible submission or evidence from: reporting date. Representatives of the film and television industry. (Paul Calvert) Committee to which bill is to be referred: Chair Environment, Recreation, Communications and the 27 May 1998 Arts Legislation Committee Possible hearing date(s): Possible reporting date: As soon as practicable. Appendix 1 (signed) Proposal to refer a bill to a committee S. Conroy Name of bill: Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member Film Licensed Investment Company Bill 1998 Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3241

Appendix 3 Appendix 5 Name of bill: Name of bill: Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1998 Electoral and Referendum Amendment Bill (No. 2) Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- 1998 sideration Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Schedule 1: Retrospective application of sales tax sideration on infrastructure projects. Impact of increase in disclosure amounts on Schedule 5: gifts transparency and intensity of funding and disclosure provisions. Schedule 4: possible anomalies in depreciation provisions. Regulations as per item 19—need input into make- up of regulations Possible submission or evidence from: Clarify use of elector information provisions to Australian Constructors Association, Australian members of parliament and senators. Council for Infrastructure Development Limited, Ernst and Young Possible submission or evidence from: Committee to which bill is to be referred: Political parties and academics Economics Legislation Committee Committee to which bill is to be referred: Possible hearing date(s): Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee Possible reporting date: 25 June 1998 Possible hearing date(s): (signed) Possible reporting date: 10 August 1998 S. Conroy (signed) Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member S. Conroy Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member Appendix 4 Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— Special Minister of State and Minister Assist- Name of bill: ing the Prime Minister) (4.33 p.m.)—I move: Trade Practices Amendment (Country of Origin At the end of the motion, add "and, in respect of Representations) Bill 1998 the proposed referral of the provisions of the Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Electoral and Referendum Amendment Bill (No. 2) sideration: 1998 to the Finance and Public Administration This legislation sets up a framework for establish- Legislation Committee, the committee report on 23 ing country of origin labelling claims and consider- June 1998". ation needs to be given as to whether this legisla- The committee’s report, as presented by tion will meet the requirements called for by Senator Calvert, indicates that, while the various industry bodies and whether it will ad- equately meet public and industry expectations. committee proposes the referral of the bill, it does not indicate a reporting date and notes Possible submission or evidence from that the committee could not agree upon a Pork Council of Australia reporting date. This amendment proposes to Strawberry Growers Association the Senate that the reporting date be 23 June South Australian Farmers Federation in order to enable the Senate to have the National Farmers Federation opportunity to debate this bill this session. Committee to which bill is to be referred: This bill does contain a number of amend- Economics Legislation Committee ments to the Commonwealth Electoral Act, which were recommended by the Joint Stand- Possible hearing date(s): ing Committee on Electoral Matters in a Possible reporting date: As soon as practicable. report it made on the 1996 election nearly 12 (signed) months ago. That report was handed down on Vicki Bourne 16 June last year. Of course, the proposals in Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member the report were thoroughly debated by that committee in the lead-up to the tabling of that report and have been in the public arena now 3242 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 for nearly 12 months. In the two-and-a-bit particular matter in this session of the parlia- years since the previous election, these mat- ment. ters have been debated thoroughly, have been We have made it very clear that some of in the public arena and have been debated by the provisions of this bill—like, for example, all the parties represented in this chamber. As the proposal to increase from $1,500 to I said, the committee’s recommendations have $10,000 the amount above which a donor to been in the public arena for all of that time. a political party must furnish a return for the The government does not really see, in light financial year—are not acceptable to the of those facts, any real need for this bill to go opposition. Of course, it is the Labor Party in to a committee, but we accept that that is this country that has led the charge in relation sought by at least one party in the chamber to improved disclosure laws. We cannot and therefore it will occur. We do think the accept the proposal of the government to reporting date should be relatively soon. All increase from $1,500 to $5,000 the amount these matters have been on the public agenda received from a person or an organisation that for quite some time and we think 23 June is political parties are required to disclose during an appropriate reporting date for a legislation a financial year. Again, we think this is very committee. That will ensure that there is the much a retrograde step and very much against opportunity, time permitting, for the bill to be the spirit of what the Labor Party has long considered by the Senate in this session. I embraced in relation to disclosure. commend that amendment to the Senate. We are particularly concerned about the issue of the Greenfields Foundation, which is Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— not adequately addressed either in the Elector- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (4.36 al and Referendum Amendment Bill (No. 2) p.m.)—I oppose this amendment and take this 1998 or in any proposed government amend- opportunity to briefly address the Senate on ments to that bill. We view this use by the the question before the chair and the very Liberal Party of the Greenfields Foundation much related issue of the motion that stands to launder funds as one of the most serious in the name of Senator Ian Campbell to breaches of the spirit and letter of the funding propose to exempt this particular bill from the and disclosure regulations that we have seen. provisions of standing order 111. I think it It is up there with the Liberal’s use of the might save the Senate some time if I try to Free Enterprise Foundation. Sadly, this bill briefly address both of those issues and does not do anything to address this very indicate that the opposition, for its part, will important issue. We are concerned that the not support the cut-off motion for this bill. It government has been complicit in allowing might save debate on that particular motion to this rort to exist, and we intend to pursue— make a contribution at this point because, of and pursue very vigorously indeed— course, this is the related issue of the report- amendments to ensure this multimillion dollar ing date of the committee on the Electoral loophole in relation to the loan from the and Referendum Amendment Bill (No. 2) Greenfields Foundation is no longer able to 1998. be exploited by the Liberal Party before, We do not accept the paltry arguments that during and beyond the next election. the government puts forward in relation to the We think that there are some very important urgency for this bill. We wonder why, if it is issues here. Many of them are very politically so urgent, it has taken so long for this particu- sensitive. We think they come to the Senate lar piece of legislation to come before us. I with, unfortunately, the motivation being an think that this bill contains some measures attempt at partisan and serious political that are highly politically partisan and they advantage on the part of the Liberal Party. are, in the view of the opposition, motivated We think this requires far more mature con- by an attempt to gain clear political advantage sideration. When you are going to change the before the calling of an election—hence the electoral laws so significantly in a country rush by the government to deal with this like Australia, by and large, it should receive Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3243 a fair degree of bipartisan support. That is the is, therefore, influencing political parties spirit with which the Labor Party is approach- through their donations because this raises the ing these issues, and that is why we oppose donation level which is required for reporting the amendment that has been moved by when people make donations to political Senator Minchin and will not be supporting parties. It is very important legislation. It does the proposal. (Time expired) need proper scrutiny. I and the Greens have Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.41 p.m.)— considerable concerns about the legislation. I have concerns about this legislation as well, Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (4.44 particularly the components of the legislation p.m.)—I would like to foreshadow an amend- which pass on information details of electors, ment but I have not yet had a chance to put including their date of birth and salutation— it in writing. It was suggested to me only 10 the title they use—to members of parliament, seconds ago. to senators and to registered political parties. Senator Faulkner—Who by? Senator Ian Campbell—Mr Acting Deputy Senator ROBERT RAY—I could not President, I raise a point of order. My point possibly reveal the source. Rather than adopt- of order is that the motion before you relates ing Senator Minchin’s course—which I to an amendment to the report of the Selec- understand is to report by 23 June—I think tion of Bills Committee—to the referral of a our attitude would be to report back on the bill to a committee and, particularly, a report- first day of the next sitting. Maybe those ing date. I think that Senator Brown would opposite could assist me with when that is need to be relevant and, to be within standing going to be. orders, to be quite specific about that motion, which is a very specific proposal. Senator Minchin—10 August. Senator ROBERT RAY—Perhaps 10 The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT August or 10 November. That is not really in (Senator Watson)—There is no point of your hands, is it? I was going to put that in order, Senator Campbell. writing as a foreshadowed motion, but if this Senator BROWN—I think that is a correct amendment is carried then you will not even ruling, Mr Acting Deputy President. require it in writing. Senator Faulkner has Another matter that concerns me is the given some indication as to why this particu- provision that any person sentenced to impris- lar bill should have a little longer hearing, and onment will not be entitled to be enrolled to Senator Brown has reinforced that. vote. When and how the committee deliber- I found it interesting in the budget papers ates on that is important to me. It is important to see a figure over three years of $45 to me because these are matters of fundamen- million. That is one of the reasons I want to tal, democratic rights. In particular, there is a reconsider some aspects of this bill. It is not need for us to ensure that prisoners are well true to portray this as a necessarily bad bill. placed to come back into civil society. We are It is a bill with some controversial aspects not talking here about axe murderers; we are that people may say is good electoral practice talking about prisoners who have short-term or partisanship, but the part that interests me sentences up to five years. People who are most is the provision in terms of tax imprisoned for more than five years already deductibility. have the right to vote taken away from them. Senator Minchin—It is not in this bill. I do not think it is good legislation for the government to be moving to strike all prison- Senator ROBERT RAY—Are you indicat- ers off the roll because it believes that that is ing that it is not in this part of the bill? going to give it a voting advantage or for Senator Minchin—It is in a separate tax whatever other reason it might have. bill. I am also concerned about the move to Senator ROBERT RAY—It is going to be make it more difficult for the public to peruse in a separate tax bill. I hope that you are not who gives money to political parties and who going to try to get that through a cut-off 3244 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 motion this session, because it is quite a more extensive reporting date and actually get remarkable figure. It is in some ways linked, the job done than to get a quick reporting because you always look for all the electoral date. I can pretty much guarantee you—it is reform that is being brought in. I found that not a threat; it is just an indication—that you figure of $45 million fascinating, because it will not get it done in the committee stage of is basically saying that political parties over this session. those three years will receive donations of Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— beyond $100 million. If you take what the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (4.48 company tax rate is and you take what the p.m.)—I seek leave to formally move an personal tax rate is and try to average it out, amendment to Senator Minchin’s amendment. bearing in mind that some donors already giving money will benefit from it, over three Leave granted. years something like an extra $80 million will Senator FAULKNER—I thank the Senate. float into the political process. I hope that is I move: not a start to say that we will do that rather Omit "23 June 1998", substitute "10 August than public funding, because that would lead 1998". to a very inequitable position. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Senator Minchin—Your members on the (Senator Watson)—The question is that the committee agreed to this. amendment moved by Senator Faulkner to Senator ROBERT RAY—Yes, they did. Senator Minchin’s amendment be agreed to. I regret that they did not have my guidance, Question put. but they shortly will have my guidance on The Senate divided. [4.53 p.m.] this particular issue. One thing that the com- mittee did not have, Senator Minchin—and I (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret will finish this part of the contribution on that Reid) point—is any estimates. You have put the Ayes 26 estimates in the forward estimates, and I have Noes 40 no idea how you calculated them. —— Senator Minchin—Treasury did not have Majority 14 —— our guidance. AYES Senator ROBERT RAY—I am sure they Bishop, M. Brown, B. did not. Maybe we will have to see Treasury Campbell, G. Carr, K. to find out how they came up with that figure. Collins, J. M. A. Colston, M. A. I suppose what I am really saying is that this Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. bill does have a chance of succeeding through Cooney, B. Denman, K. J.* Evans, C. V. Faulkner, J. P. the Senate with some amendments given Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. mature consideration. If you put a very short Hogg, J. Lundy, K. reporting time on this, and if you defeat us on Mackay, S. Margetts, D. the cut-off motion, then it will be Wik II in McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. the committee stage. You do not want that; Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. we do not want that. Quirke, J. A. Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. West, S. M. We would rather some time to try to work NOES out a reasonable proposition. We know Abetz, E. Allison, L. Senator Minchin is a reasonable person on Alston, R. K. R. Bartlett, A. J. J. these things. He does listen, he does engage Boswell, R. L. D. Bourne, V. in discussion. Sometimes he concedes; some- Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H.* times he digs his heels in. We know him in Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. that particular way. We can also say that, if Coonan, H. Crane, W. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. he ever gave his word on something, we Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. know he would keep it. But I do think it Harradine, B. Heffernan, W. would be better on this occasion to have a Herron, J. Hill, R. M. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3245

NOES today, relating to medical research, be postponed Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. till the next day of sitting. Lees, M. H. Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. COMMITTEES MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. Murray, A. Rural and Regional Affairs and Parer, W. R. Payne, M. A. Transport Legislation Committee Reid, M. E. Stott Despoja, N. Meeting Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request Watson, J. O. W. Woodley, J. of Senator Crane)—by leave—agreed to: That the Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- PAIRS port Legislation Committee be authorised to hold Bolkus, N. Patterson, K. C. L. a public hearing during the sitting of the Senate on Crowley, R. A. Tierney, J. 28 April 1998, from 9.30 a.m. to 10 a.m., to take Schacht, C. C. Newman, J. M. evidence for the committee’s inquiry into the Sherry, N. O’Chee, W. G. provisions of the Primary Industries and Energy * denotes teller Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1997. (Senator Eggleston did not vote, to compen- ORDER OF BUSINESS sate for the vacancy caused by the resignation Film Classification of Senator Bob Collins.) Motion (by Senator Harradine) agreed to: Question so resolved in the negative. That general business notice of motion No. 1142 standing in the name of Senator Harradine for The PRESIDENT—I now put the question today, proposing an order for the production of that the amendment moved by Senator documents by the Minister for Justice (Senator Minchin be agreed to. Vanstone) be postponed till the next day of sitting. Question resolved in the affirmative. FOREIGN POLICY Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— The PRESIDENT—I now put the question Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.00 that the motion moved by Senator Calvert, as p.m.)—by leave—I would like to take this amended, be agreed to. opportunity, on behalf of the opposition, to advise the Senate of the position that the Question resolved in the affirmative. opposition will be taking as from today on motions dealing with foreign policy issues. In ORDER OF BUSINESS cases where there is not unanimous agreement on such motions, the opposition will not be Census agreeing to formality. We take the view that foreign policy motions should not be decided Motion (by Senator Woodley,atthe without debate. Our position on motions to request of Senator Bourne) agreed to: suspend standing orders to debate such mo- tions, of course, will be determined on a case That general business notice of motion No. 1146 by case basis. standing in the name of Senator Bourne for today, relating to the retention of census data, be post- The opposition believes that formal motions poned till 22 June 1998. are not an appropriate instrument for formu- lating or conveying positions on foreign Medical Research policy. They are a blunt instrument: senators may either support them in the form in which Motion (by Senator Woodley, at the they are put before the Senate or oppose request of Senator Stott Despoja) agreed to: them; they may not amend them. The nuances and the subtleties of foreign policy issues and That general business notice of motion No. 1138 the impact on Australia’s relations with other standing in the name of Senator Stott Despoja for countries need to be carefully considered and 3246 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 debated. The procedures for formal motions needs to be clarification then the government in our view preclude such important consider- has the wherewithal to do that, and I have no ations. doubt it does. After all, the message does go Senators will know that formal motions are through the President of this Senate to which- conveyed by the President to the governments ever head of state is involved. On one recent of the countries to which they are directed. occasion, I understand that the opposition These countries do not always distinguish voted down a very important motion that the between a formal position of the Australian Greens put forward appealing to President government and a formal resolution of the Suharto in Indonesia to ensure civil rights— upper house of the Australian parliament. So, Senator Faulkner—Because you did not unless there is general agreement on such do what you said you would do. You have to motions, and there are many examples of tell the truth. these—those that might recognise national days and such like, which the opposition does Senator BROWN—You have had your believe it is appropriate for the Senate to turn, Senator Faulkner; I heard you in silence support through the mechanism of the grant- so please do the same for me. It was to ask ing of formality for notices of motion—we Present Suharto to ensure the safety of people will not be granting formality. who were being taken off the streets and tortured. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.02 p.m.)— by leave—I wish to make a brief comment on Senator Faulkner—That is an absolute lie. the announcement by the Leader of the Senator BROWN—You can say what you Opposition in the Senate. The opposition is like, Senator Faulkner, but people can read responding, in effect, to a number of motions the Hansard for themselves on that one. The that have been put forward by the Senate, as proposition was put to me that it should not a result of a vote on formality, which have have been addressed to President Suharto but expressed concern about such things as civil that it should have been addressed to Mr rights, human injustices, the need for democ- Howard to send on to President Suharto. As racy in places like East Timor, Burma and far as I am concerned, the Senate is not an in- Tibet and, not least, the tumultuous events in strument of government; it is a house of the the last few weeks in Indonesia. states and a house of review, and it is an If I read the opposition’s move correctly, it alternative voice— is saying that without unanimity such motions will not proceed. Unanimity means the lowest Senator Carr—House of the states! common denominator; it means that govern- Opposition senators interjecting— ment or opposition will be able to determine in their own good time what motions will be Senator BROWN—It was, until the Labor put forward—to the exclusion of the Greens, Party got hold of it. As usual, in this place, I the Democrats and the Independents in this am getting interjections from the Labor Party place. That is the dynamics of it. It means while the rest of the Senate listens with a that the opposition is pulling the shutters little bit more interest. The fact is that we are down on a very important avenue for alterna- not here to be ciphers of the government. The tive political expression—about events in move the Labor Party is making at the mo- places like East Timor and Tibet—to that of ment is a giant step towards being that and the government; not least the Howard govern- towards taking away the independence that ment. the Senate has to ensure all community sectors can put forward motions here and When Senator Faulkner says that on occa- have them dealt with equally in their own sions overseas governments, including dicta- good time. tors, cannot discern between government policy in Australia and a message coming Senator Faulkner—Senators can put from the Senate, I submit that that is their forward motions but we will debate them. misfortune. That is no excuse at all. If there Listen, for God’s sake! Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3247

Senator BROWN—The mechanism is The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT there, Senator Faulkner, for you, with your 30 (Senator Hogg)—There is no point of order, or so members, to look at motions and if you although I do take the comments made by the have difficulty with the wording of them to Manager of Government Business very seri- discuss that wording with the Greens or the ously in the sense that you did say that it Democrats or whoever it might be. I do not would be a brief statement. I ask you now to know of any occasion in which such an draw your comments to a conclusion. approach has been made where that discussion Senator BROWN—Sir, I ask for your has not taken place—very often with good protection from interjections by Labor Party results. So it is quite wrong to say that the senators and others as I go. Thank you. only opportunity you get to get the wording and so on right is when the motion is moved The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— as a formal matter in here. If you think it is You have been getting that protection from difficult for the 30 of you put together to me. negotiate on wording, tell me about it. There Senator BROWN—It has not always is one Australian Green here, and with my worked; that is the problem. We are seeing colleague Greens (WA) Senator Margetts, we the Labor Party making a move to trammel deal with the lot anyway, and we manage it. the ability of all corners of this house and all Senator Chris Evans—It is because you members of this house to express themselves will not negotiate. and to get action from the Senate on fast moving international events. Senator BROWN—You can express your Senator Faulkner—Fast moving! embarrassment about being pushed time and again on issues like East Timor and Tibet Senator BROWN—Fast moving—as has where the Labor Party has a horrendous happened in Indonesia in the last few weeks. record. You can try to make that a personal I do not know whether the Labor Party can matter as far as I am concerned— keep up with that but the Greens and, I am sure, the Democrats and the Independents can. Senator Ian Campbell—On a point of order, I was happy to grant leave—and I Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- presume other senators have their reasons for ia)—by leave—I am not sure that members of not refusing leave—on the basis that Senator the Senate realise how few opportunities there Brown asked to make a brief statement. I do are within the Senate program on a daily or not know what his concept of ‘brief’ is, and weekly basis for views, not of minor parties I know it is hard to put time limits on by or independents but of the wider community, leave statements, but I would not be granting to be put on major national and international leave, if he were to seek leave to make a issues. These are views that do not hit the short statement again, if this is what his media necessarily—although some of them definition of short is. I ask that he at least do. They are views on issues of human rights, uphold his own word that he gave to all foreign affairs and peace and disarmament honourable senators, and certainly to this that do not get onto the agenda of the major senator. parties. I have heard statements from Senator Harradine in the past regarding his concern Senator BROWN—On the point of order: about dealing with the issues that are put as you know, Mr Acting Deputy President, before him. We have the same pressures, and interjections are disorderly and against the we have exactly the same number of staff as forms of this place. If I were not being Senator Harradine to deal with issues. I interjected upon I would have finished long believe that this time is precious. I am con- ago. Sir, if you had put a stymie on the cerned that there may be moves to restrict— interjections which I am getting—of course, I have been drawn to reply to those interjec- Senator Harradine—You have got double tions—I would have been finished long ago. my staff. I am almost finished. Without the interjec- Senator MARGETTS—No, I have not got tions, I would have drawn this to completion. double your staff, Senator Harradine. There 3248 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 are two Green senators here and we both have evolved in such a way that there are fewer the same number of staff as you. Each of us opportunities now. We used to have an open- takes the responsibility to decide because ended adjournment. Then we moved to ultimately it is our heads that are on the line restricted times, mostly because of staffing when a decision is made on each motion that considerations in this building. But we left is put before the Senate. The Greens do this, Monday night as an open-ended adjournment as does Senator Harradine, very well in terms so that everyone could have half an hour in of responsible actions and responsible deci- which to make a speech to put their views. sions. I would be very concerned about any When we went to extended Monday night action that might reduce or restrict the ability sittings that opportunity disappeared. So if during notices of motion not just of us to Senator Margetts takes her turn to speak on speak but for the community, whom we repre- the adjournment, she will get one speech a sent and whom supposedly everybody else week only. I think we have to look at that and represents, to have a voice to make statements look at making one of the adjournments open- and for those statements to be potentially ended so that every senator can make a voted on or debated within the parliament. contribution. It was a great safety valve for I think I see some elements of would-be this chamber. It is one that was removed, not government with the Labor Party’s response— through design or maliciousness, but almost ‘We were government’ or ‘We would like to by accident. That is something we should be government’ and ‘we find this incon- look at. venient’. I can recall that when I first came to Until the last three or four years, the device this place there were a great many more of formal notices of motion was rarely used. suspensions of standing orders. I do not It was intended to be basically on non-contro- actually have the number of times. I am versial matters. Then when the trend came to researching at the moment to find out exactly using them for controversial matters, govern- what the situation was. But I recall that on a ments were faced with two choices: they fairly regular basis there were suspensions of either just voted or took them all on and standing orders. We do not have that so much therefore had suspension of standing orders now. This may well happen again if what the which, before the most recent change, had Labor Party is suggesting is to be the case. unlimited time—now they are limited to half Then perhaps they will come in and moan an hour. You could have that debate proceed about how many suspensions of standing and lose a whole day’s sitting—and that was orders there are. The government changed the not satisfactory. The tendency of government process to allow formality of motions so that was to say, ‘We can’t afford to cost ourselves motions could be put to the vote or otherwise. the program, we’ll take this controversial Maybe we all have to get together and matter and just have a vote on it.’ communicate better. Maybe that is the nub of From their perspective I think you can see the question. It is being said that people that that is a sensible management problem, perhaps are not communicating as well or are but they have the same problem as we have not listening to the sides of the argument in many ways. This is why we are not trying before a motion is put. Maybe if that issue to knock off formal notices of motion or have can be sorted out we will not have to resort motions carried in this chamber on foreign to punitive actions within the Senate that may policy. We are simply saying that, on these restrict either the voting or debate on these, complex foreign affairs issues, we simply what many people in the community consider, cannot put the motion through with no debate vital and important issues, whether national or and no consideration, and with no flexibility international. to change it—albeit Senator Brown’s offer Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria)—by that we can come round to his office and he leave—Senator Margetts complains about a might amend it. Quite often they are double lack of opportunity to express herself in this bunger motions. Yesterday was an example. chamber. That is because procedures have Part of it was to release Gusmao. Maybe the Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3249 majority of the Senate wanted to vote for that, essential relationship between the legislature but Senator Brown tacked on a view, that we and the executive. may not share in geostrategic circumstances, concerning the independence of East Timor. CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATION We are left in the position that, not liking half Motion (by Senator Woodley,atthe of it, we have to vote against the lot of it. At request of Senator Stott Despoja) agreed to: least if it is debated, everyone can give That the general business order of the day in consideration to that and amendments can be relation to the Privacy Amendment Bill 1997 be moved. discharged from the Notice Paper. We are not saying that this chamber should INDIA: NUCLEAR TESTING never carry a foreign affairs motion. What we Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) are saying is, if it is of great import, unfortu- (5.19 p.m.)—In full recognition of what is nately we are going to have to find the time going to happen, I ask that general business to debate it. We are not going to tick them notice of motion No. 1120, standing in my off, put them through on the knock, when name and relating to further underground they have repercussions. The fact is that nuclear testing by India, be taken as formal. foreign policy in this country is primarily the Leave not granted. responsibility of government and the exec- utive—that is part of the traditional break- COMMITTEES down. We are responsible for scrutinising Community Affairs Legislation their behaviour on all occasions and using all Committee the devices in the chamber to criticise them and suggest alteration. Extension of Time Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request Senator Faulkner is correct: it does create of Senator Knowles) agreed to: a lot of confusion out there when a foreign That the time for the presentation of the report government gets a message from the Senate. of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee It is not their lack of sophistication, Senator on the provisions of the Commonwealth Rehabilita- Brown, through you Mr Chairman, but it tion Service Reform Bill 1998 be extended to 23 often creates confusion. I come back to the June 1998. point that foreign affairs issues are often Scrutiny of Bills Committee complex. They often have a whole variety of nuances and just to put a motion through on Report the basis that we want to save debating time Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- is unacceptable to us. It is not that we have ia)—On behalf of Senator Cooney, I present changed our mind overnight. Senator Brown the 6th report of 1998 of the Senate Standing is wrong in what he says on the Indonesian Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I also lay situation; some of us have believed it for a on the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest No. year or two or longer, and we have finally 7 1998, dated 27 May 1998. been—if you like—given a consideration to Ordered that the report be printed. take action on it. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS We are not saying that on every occasion you, Senator Brown, or any other senator, National Reconciliation Week moves a foreign affairs motion we are going Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister to gag you. We are not. But we are not going for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander to say that it can be automatically put up for Affairs) (5.21 p.m.)—by leave—I want to a vote without debate. That is simply unac- take the opportunity on the first day of Na- ceptable to us. If that has alienated the Greens tional Reconciliation Week to confirm the and others, that is the price. We think we are government’s strong commitment to the cause adopting not a pragmatic position but a of reconciliation between indigenous and non- principled position. We believe it goes to the indigenous Australians. This week, all Aus- 3250 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 tralians can show a commitment to reconcili- the key socio-economic areas of health, ation, inform themselves about the indigenous housing, education and employment. The perspective and participate in reconciliation Government’s efforts have been concentrated activities. National Reconciliation Week is in these areas, and I believe we are beginning marked by two very significant dates. Today, to see results. 27 May, is the anniversary of the referendum In the recent budget, I issued a ministerial in 1967 which empowered the Commonwealth statement which, for the first time, puts on to make laws for Aboriginal people. The record exactly what the government is doing concluding date of National Reconciliation to meet its goals. It shows that we spend Week is 3 June, the anniversary of the High almost $1.9 billion annually on indigenous- Court’s Mabo decision. specific programs, and over 70 percent of this The theme this year is ‘Communities is in the key areas I mentioned. Since coming Working Together’. All over Australia, local to government we have increased indigenous councils, churches, business and community health spending by nearly 40 percent. The organisations will be acknowledging the cause Prime Minister announced in February a of reconciliation, and I urge everyone to join project to address the severe eye health in their local activities. Australia’s traditional problems in indigenous communities. In a values of a ‘fair go’, of tolerance, of accept- country with all of Australia’s advantages, it ance of diversity and of looking after each is intolerable that so many indigenous people other in times of need provide the context for should be afflicted with avoidable blindness. successful reconciliation. In 1991 we were The measures we are putting in place will happy to support the establishment of the make an appreciable and early difference. We Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation. We are also providing an immunisation program continue to support the council’s objective, for influenza and associated diseases which which is to promote reconciliation based on are a major cause of ill health and death in an appreciation of indigenous cultures, indigenous communities. It is by practical, achievements and the unique position of realistic and effective measures such as these indigenous people in Australia. that we aim to achieve significantly better There are three major elements to a success- outcomes for indigenous people. ful reconciliation process. We should acknow- Mr Acting Deputy President, we acknow- ledge the realities of our shared history and its ledge that there is a huge backlog in the continuing effects. We should, in line with the provision of adequate housing and health theme for National Reconciliation Week, related infrastructure in indigenous communi- work together towards a common future in ties and, unfortunately, the available funding which we share equally and in which we is not unlimited. We have decided that our appreciate and respect our varied traditions priority should be those communities that are and cultures. Finally—and this is the key—we particularly needy and which, because of their need an ongoing commitment to address location in remote areas, cannot access main- Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander disad- stream programs. vantage. The innovative ATSIC-army community This is one of our major policy priorities. assistance program, which we initiated shortly There can otherwise be no meaningful recon- after coming to government, has already had ciliation. We look forward to the day when some excellent results. Seven priority remote indigenous people share equally with all other communities have been identified and the Australians in the social, economic and army is providing housing, sewerage and cultural life of this country. We look forward better, cleaner and safer water supplies. More to the day when indigenous people are able to significantly, it also has community members leave behind welfare dependence and take who are trained by army personnel to main- control of their own lives and communities. tain the new infrastructure so that the value of We know that this will not be achieved if the asset will be preserved, and the benefits indigenous people continue to lag behind in in terms of improved health will be sustained. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3251

Indeed, during a recent trip by the Prime This government is committed to assisting Minister and me to the Northern Territory to indigenous students to reach their full poten- visit Aboriginal communities, we were able to tial and has provided increased funding, see the very real improvements which will be including to the indigenous education strategic made to the community of Elcho Island under initiatives program. I am pleased to note that the program. These include the construction the government will be providing a package of 10 houses, the provision of solar power of initiatives of more than $15 million under and the upgrading of water supplies. this program for new equipment and facilities, including computers, school buses and accom- Mr Acting Deputy President, these results modation for teachers in remote areas. The demonstrate that this program is delivering additional funds will also be used for curricu- real benefits to indigenous people in the most lum programs aimed at improving the reading needy of remote communities. And today the and writing skills of indigenous children, Prime Minister has announced that the particularly in those vital early primary years. government will commit an additional $5 This funding will go to schools, both govern- million to extend the program. I will be ment and non-government, preschools and consulting with ATSIC to provide matching vocational and training institutions. It aug- funding as it did under the pilot program. ments the $20 million announced by this government in December for similar facilities I particularly want to express my thanks to and projects for indigenous students in non- army personnel who have contributed so government schools and pre-schools. willingly to the success of this program and the productive consultation processes which Mr Acting Deputy President, we are also they undertook with local communities. very supportive of the community develop- Indeed, the program is an excellent example ment employment projects scheme. It may not of this government’s approach to the recon- be very well known that indigenous people ciliation process, particularly in light of the have been working for the dole for the last very constructive relationships which were twenty years under this scheme—which was formed between army personnel and the introduced by the coalition government in indigenous communities. 1977—both to gain work experience and to improve community amenities. Demand for Mr Acting Deputy President, indigenous places has always been high despite some children suffer particular disadvantage in disincentives in terms of reduced welfare educational outcomes. The comparative entitlements and taxation rebates. In the last participation figures are very telling. Indigen- budget we removed those anomalies, and we ous children have a secondary school year 12 will provide CDEP workers with the same retention rate of less than 30 per cent, com- allowances available to mainstream work for pared with some 70 per cent of other Austral- the dole participants. This will bring more ians. Only nine per cent of indigenous young money into indigenous communities to assist people are attending tertiary institutions, in their economic development. compared with 22 per cent of the non-in- digenous population. Twenty-five per cent of An appreciation in the wider community of indigenous students leave school before year the unique culture and heritage of Australia’s 10. For other students, the figure is only two indigenous people is also integral to reconcili- per cent. In terms of educational attainments, ation. I am pleased that I have been able to 75 per cent of indigenous students in primary take the Prime Minister to the Torres Strait schools have significantly low levels of Islands and eastern Arnhem Land. The pride literacy and numeracy, compared with 33 per indigenous people take in their traditions, the cent of other students. The situation is exacer- enormous effort that is put into maintaining bated by the remoteness of many Aboriginal these traditions and the important role of the communities which have no educational family in indigenous communities are to be facilities and are located a considerable much admired. Over recent years many distance from the nearest schools. Australians will have enjoyed outstanding 3252 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 work by indigenous people in the visual and I congratulate Evelyn Scott and the Council performing arts. for Aboriginal Reconciliation on their efforts Understanding the importance of land to in coordinating this week’s activities and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Austral- again urge everyone to enter wholeheartedly ians is essential to an appreciation of their into the spirit of reconciliation. I table the culture. We have a profound respect for the statement and seek leave to move a motion. deep spiritual attachment of indigenous people Leave granted. to their traditional land, and we support the Senator HERRON—I move: principles of native title as set out in the That the Senate take note of the statement. Mabo and Wik decisions. But of course other Australians have attachments and rights to Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— land as well and a balance must be struck. I Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.33 believe we have achieved that balance with p.m.)—Reconciliation between indigenous and our native title amendments. If no single non-indigenous Australians is critical to our group is entirely happy with the outcome, I capacity to move forward as a maturing hope it will be acknowledged that the result nation. It involves reconciliation between our is the best compromise amongst varied inter- cultures and reconciliation with our shared ests. The other key element is understanding history. Reconciling with our shared history our shared history and recognising that this involves acknowledgment, acceptance and history continues to contribute to today’s mutual respect. It must involve a shared disadvantage. sorrow and regret for the events, attitudes and policies of the past that brought so much pain Last December we announced a $63 million then and has left a legacy of personal and package of practical measures clearly targeted social distress with indigenous people today. at the most urgent and pressing need identi- The Prime Minister has told us that we fied in the Bringing them home recommenda- must acknowledge the realities of our shared tions—getting family members back together. history and its continuing effects. We whole- The funds we set aside will be used by heartedly agree with that. But is this the same ATSIC to establish ‘link up’ centres in each Prime Minister who so enthusiastically moved state and the Northern Territory to assist to entrench the expression ‘the black armband people wanting to trace missing relatives. view of history’ in common use? Is this the Substantial funds were also allocated to same Prime Minister who said: provide new and enhanced counselling ser- vices in recognition of the trauma and distress Call an end to the self-flagellation, the introspec- tion, the willingness to accept unfounded criti- that many families have faced. cisms? Reconciliation is, however, also about the Is this the same Prime Minister who, when future; it is especially about the future. It is speaking to the Age newspaper, said: about determining common goals and building We can look any people in the eye and say we enduring partnerships that will take us to- have done right by our citizens? gether into the next century. We are an egalitarian people, we are a fair and tolerant Is this the same Prime Minister whose re- people. I believe we have a real commitment sponse to the racist diatribes in the maiden to those elements of the reconciliation process speech of the member for Oxley in the House that I have talked about: acknowledging the of Representatives was to triumphantly an- past; appreciating indigenous culture; working nounce to the Queensland Liberal Party in together; and, most importantly, addressing particular and the world in general: those disadvantages that prevent indigenous The pall of censorship of the Keating years has people taking their rightful place in contem- been lifted? porary Australia. We are entering an exciting That brings us, of course, to the coalition’s time in our history and, with mutual trust and major contribution to National Reconciliation respect, the process of reconciliation will be Week: its decision to direct preferences to one of the great successes of that history. One Nation in Queensland. Such exquisite Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3253 timing! They were no doubt mindful of One tives did not seek to deal with this newly Nation’s Hervey Bay spokesman’s acute discovered right; they sought to deny and observation. He said: suppress it. In government their response to There’s nothing wrong with Asia that an ‘A’ bomb the Wik decision was to draft a systematic and anthrax couldn’t cure— winding back of the right of indigenous when deciding on this crucial reconciliation Australians that the High Court had recog- issue. nised. The Wik decision was about coexist- ence and the primacy of property rights The Prime Minister noted that National granted since European settlement. It could Reconciliation Week will end with the anni- have been a major instrument of reconcili- versary of the Mabo decision. The opposition ation. applauds his assurance that the government accepts the outcome of the Wik and Mabo Confronting truth and understanding past cases. What a pity that the Prime Minister’s mistakes is a public policy issue. Expenditure actions have failed to reflect those words. The programs for indigenous Australians in health, Mabo decision was central to and critical to housing, education and training are welcome reconciliation. The pride and reassurance that and necessary. However, if such programs are flowed to indigenous Australians from this predicated on the assumption that we are recognition of their prior rights in this country simply dealing with a group within an ho- is real and measurable; measurable in their mogenous wider community that suffers from willingness and ability to pursue the logical material deprivation, and that such deprivation benefits of these discovered rights in public can be redressed by targeted spending, then and in the courts. It truly affirmed them and we are all doomed to further disappointment. gave many of them confidence that our Australia’s indigenous communities con- system of justice can recognise and protect tinue to bear the scars and the pain and the them. disabilities that come from a history of dis- The response of certain elements in the possession, social dislocation, destruction of community, including most of those who their language and culture, and the systematic currently form our national government, was destruction of families. Public policy makers to attack the decision and deny its legitimacy. in this country must accept that reality and Furthermore, they embarked on a deliberate respond creatively to the challenges that this campaign in regional Australia to spread understanding brings to effective program and misinformation, fear and panic. Whatever the policy delivery. short-term political results may have been, we Great numbers of indigenous Australians will all live with the resultant racial dishar- and many health and education professionals mony for years to come. tell us that progress must start with healing And they did not stop there. They attacked and that an apology—an expression of re- the High Court as well. As Gerard Henderson gret—from authorities that have represented remarked yesterday, ‘Neither Ben Chifley in oppression and pain is central to that healing. 1949 or Robert Menzies in 1956, despite High Why in the name of good government, if not Court decisions that cut to the core of their in the name of humanity, should this govern- political agendas, ever did such a thing.’ Not ment deny them such a simple, symbolic only did the coalition let loose the more gesture? The Prime Minister can’t apologise. lamentable specimens from the dark corners His Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait of their own backbench but also they assailed Islander Affairs— the court from the frontbench as well after Senator Carr—Leaves the chamber. both the Mabo and Wik decisions. Senator FAULKNER—He leaves the The Keating government, in the context of chamber while this statement is being debat- the coalition’s campaign of fear and loathing, ed, and he says that apologies are for wimps. framed a legislative response to Mabo in Who can forget what he said in question time 1993. They did so in the face of total non- yesterday? He accused the opposition in this cooperation from the coalition. The conserva- chamber and the opposition in this nation— 3254 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 the Labor Party—of being participants in ‘the coming elections it will totally divide and crying game’. Who can ever forget that that fracture this nation of ours. is all you get from the Minister for Aboriginal The Democrats also believe that the Prime and Torres Strait Islander Affairs? And what Minister of this country must take responsi- is the abiding message of all of this? What bility for the rise and rise of One Nation. Mr are we to read into the code? I suspect that Howard defended the member for Oxley what we have, on balance, is a situation in almost from the beginning. In that atmos- which Australians in favour of reconciliation phere—I suppose one must call it tolerance; suspect that they have got no friend in the I cannot think of another word, although it is Prime Minister, Mr Howard. a misuse of tolerance too, I think—the One Senator Woodley—And no-one to repre- Nation party has survived and thrived. sent them. Today, as the Leader of the Opposition in Senator FAULKNER—And those who are the Senate has said, we hear that the coalition opposed to reconciliation, Senator Woodley, in Queensland has given One Nation its stamp privately celebrate their suspicion that they of approval with its second preference. In have a secret friend in the Prime Minister. We other words, the coalition in Queensland in the Australian Labor Party, we in the would rather have One Nation members of opposition, welcome and acknowledge the state parliament than Labor members. That is start of National Reconciliation Week, and we shocking, sad and very cynical. We wonder endorse the Prime Minister’s call for all if the federal coalition will follow suit and Australians to participate in National Recon- declare its support for One Nation. I guess ciliation Week. that may happen at the end of reconciliation week. We thank indigenous Australians for their patience. We thank them for their acceptance We believe that the conservative parties are and their forbearance in the face of all that playing a very dangerous political game. By has happened, and we join them and all creating that atmosphere of tolerance, the Australians in the knowledge and the hope Prime Minister may have dug his own politi- that things will get better. We can and will be cal grave. One Nation now appears to present reconciled. We can and will move forward to a formidable electoral threat to the coalition, a better future. federally and in Queensland. This is the cost to reconciliation in this country from the rise Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (5.43 of the One Nation party. p.m.)—I wish to respond to the minister’s statement on behalf of the Australian Demo- But there is a bright side: the people’s crats. There is no doubt that the Democrats movement for reconciliation is growing larger are committed to reconciliation. We have put every day. That is wonderful news. Yesterday that on the record on many occasions and we in Canberra, hundreds of people were turned will continue to work for reconciliation. away from many of the events which were held to celebrate and, by way of ceremony, But I must say that reconciliation has to be say sorry to the indigenous people of this based on justice and there is not much justice country. Many of us went to the celebration in this place, certainly not this week. It is in the theatrette and not only was the theat- distressing, during National Reconciliation rette absolutely packed but every square inch Week, to hear reports of the most anti-recon- of available space outside the theatrette was ciliation party in this country, One Nation, packed and hundreds— rising in the polls. In fact, One Nation is perhaps the most unbelievably misnamed Senator Margetts—The government didn’t political party in the history of this country, allow them to use the mural hall for some for it represents neither one nor one nation. It reason. is not one because it is in fact many parties, Senator WOODLEY—We heard that, individuals and extremist groups, and it is not although the President has some explanation. for one nation, because if it gains any seats in But you are right. I was very angry about Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3255 that, as were people at the ceremony. But that has been expressed to us by many indigenous is the bright side: that there are many people, people throughout Australia—that reconcili- a growing body of people, in this country ation tends to sound like a ‘kiss and make who really do believe in reconciliation. That up’, a ‘if only we can come together again, is wonderful news. then things will be okay’. That superficial Reconciliation is about mutual respect element of reconciliation, or some superficial between people. Mutual respect means people understanding of reconciliation, tends to come can say sorry to one another; that is the way from this page. The following statement is that mature relationships develop. Having said made in paragraph 4: sorry, we can then go on. The movement The theme this year is Communities Working around Australia of grassroots people who are Together. All over Australia local councils, saying sorry to the stolen generation is ac- churches, business and community will be acknow- knowledging their pain and suffering, sharing ledging the cause of reconciliation... their grief and then moving ahead. The What does that mean? I argue that it means Democrats were happy to personally offer our nothing because it basically does not acknow- apologies to the stolen generation in the sorry ledge the need for the healing in the first books. We know that admissions of guilt are place. ‘Acknowledging the cause of not being sought, but we know that saying reconciliation’ is meaningless. It does not give sorry allows this nation to grieve, to heal and any indication of the need to recognise the to move on. physical, psychological and sexual abuse and I believe, as we note with alarm the rising discrimination that have occurred and that popularity of the One Nation party in Queens- need to be acknowledged for the healing to land, it is significant to note the equal rise in take place. It does not acknowledge the popularity for the reconciliation movement in systematic disenfranchisement, the removal Australia. Sorry Day activities in Canberra from land, and the ignorance and disrespect yesterday were booked out, so it is not all bad for indigenous culture and values. That must news. be acknowledged. Without acknowledgment, we will not learn and we will not progress. I conclude by referring to an article in the Even so, reconciliation is only a word if it Australian today about the Council for Abo- does not mean more, if it does not mean riginal Reconciliation. There was a suggestion actual actions. of criticism of the chair of that council, Evelyn Scott, and that article quotes me. I We basically have an indication that the want to place on record my unqualified government believes that the situation many support for Evelyn Scott as chairperson of the indigenous people find themselves in is of council and my support for her as she seeks, their own making. The document states: through the council, to advance the cause of We look forward to the day when indigenous reconciliation in this country. To that end, the people are able to leave behind welfare dependence Democrats are unequivocally committed. and take control of their own lives and communi- ties. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) (5.49 p.m.)—I feel sad about the statement Wouldn’t that be wonderful? But self-determi- presented today by the Prime Minister (Mr nation is not actually on the government’s Howard). The sadness relates to the lack of agenda. So basically this government is understanding that jumps out from the pages saying, ‘Leave behind your culture, forget of the document that has been presented. The what we have done, forget what successive very first paragraph says: generations have done and pull yourself up from the situation you find yourself in.’ We . . . confirm the government’s strong commitment to the cause of reconciliation between indigenous see that further on it says: and non-indigenous Australians. It shows that we spend almost $1.9 billion annually The Greens (WA) have always had some on indigenous-specific programmes... concern in relation to the concept of reconcili- Very interesting. It goes to state and territory ation. Our concern relates to the fact—and it governments, in the main. Yet what is the 3256 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 centrepoint of this reconciliation statement? It actually deal with self-determination: work is dunny based paternalism. The only example towards a meaningful treaty process, work this government can give is sending the army towards agreement with the Aboriginal and in—without actually asking indigenous Aus- Torres Strait Islander nations of Australia and tralians whether that is what they want to work towards finding real self-determination. happen in that manner. It is using a special If this dunny based paternalism is the best the appropriation but requiring that ATSIC put up government can do, we will continue to be in money from their already stretched budget to the state we are now, with total lack of provide matching funds. It is not providing understanding of what the real issues are, total extra money but requiring that ATSIC give up lack of understanding of the need for recogni- some other program, some other priority, in tion and total lack of understanding that in order to match the funds that people in any program you put together the very least indigenous communities were not asked about you need to do is find out whether that is in the first place. what the communities are wanting and, if so, What kind of dunny based paternalism is how they want it delivered. this? It basically misses the whole point. Why This is more than sad; this is tragic. I really were state governments not required to put in think that the people in other countries are that portion of the $1.9 billion of federal looking with great distress and sadness at taxpayers’ money that people pay to state and what this government is doing. I do not federal governments to provide basic ser- personally believe that the big racist problem vices—basic services that mean public hous- in Australia is a particular minor party or ing that is more than concrete and wire pens individuals standing for parliament. They are like you get in many remote and regional reflecting the environment that has been areas of Australia. Would this be accepted in created by a political scapegoating, divisive any other portion of the Australian communi- mentality. This government is seeking to gain ty, especially when, to receive basic health from that mentality. It is seeking to gain from and education services, people have to be the distress within the Australian community forced to sign up to mining agreements, for that has been created by the combined major their basic human rights? So the great contri- parties in this parliament. Until we start bution to reconciliation by this government is addressing those, we will always be attacking actually to take $5 million off ATSIC from one or other minor party. their other programs, or sit and wait to see whether or not they will accept taking $5 I believe there is blame to be had for the million out of their other programs. simplistic arguments that are put up by those Is the army the best or most appropriate people who are specifically standing on racist means of providing the service? I do not platforms. Of course that is not to be applaud- know. Have ATSIC been advised? Did ed. But the government and the Labor Party ATSIC get a choice? Did Aboriginal commu- bear some responsibility for that level of nities get a choice? Is this their priority? Is distress that exists within the community. this a way to move towards self-determin- Until we start looking at the cause of this ation? Quite frankly, I think the issue of distress and until we start looking at the sovereignty must be brought back onto the reason why scapegoat politics and wedge agenda. We know that it has never been politics and divisive politics are in such a decided by the High Court because they fertile environment in Australia, attacking cannot. The High Court of Australia cannot those people who are gaining politically from decide on sovereignty because at the very it will not address the problem. We have got moment those words come out of their to start healing this country as a whole. We mouths they themselves no longer exist. have got to start helping indigenous Austral- ians to be part of the healing process, but we If Australia cannot deal with the issue of also have to start healing this nation. sovereignty in that way, we have got to deal with it in another way. The other way is to Question resolved in the affirmative. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3257

COMMITTEES . at the discretion of State and Territory govern- ments, access by ACE providers to funds for Employment, Education and Training Vocational Education and Training (VET) References Committee provided by the Commonwealth through ANTA to the States and Territories; Report: Government Response . the new labour market assistance arrangements Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- funded through the Department of Employment, land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Education, Training and Youth Affairs for the Environment)—I present the (DEETYA) under which contracted organisations government’s response to the report of the are free to choose the type of assistance, includ- Employment, Education and Training Refer- ing training, they see as necessary to get a jobseeker a job. These arrangements create a ences Committee entitled Beyond Cinderella: valuable opportunity for ACE providers to towards a learning society. I seek leave to market their services to the contracted providers incorporate the response in Hansard. and expand their current involvement in the Leave granted. training of job seekers; and The response read as follows— . the Commonwealth’s representation on the MCEETYA Taskforce on ACE. Beyond Cinderella: Towards a learning society The Commonwealth, in considering its role in PREAMBLE ACE, must take into account its overall role in, and The Government welcomes the opportunity to responsibility for, all aspects of education and respond to the report of the Senate Employment, training. In this context the Commonwealth’s Education and Training References Committee: deliberations must be conditioned by two key Beyond Cinderella: Towards a learning society, factors: which documents developments in Adult and . the level of budgetary support the Common- Community Education (ACE) in Australia since its wealth can provide for education and training earlier report in 1991 and makes recommendations activities across the full spectrum of education for future development of the ACE sector. This and training; and report will prove to be a valuable resource docu- ment for governments, organisations, institutions, . the most appropriate balance for the distribution educators and individuals. of available Commonwealth resources across the The release of this report follows the release of the various education and training sectors. new National Policy on Adult and Community The way in which the recommendations contained Education, endorsed by Commonwealth, State and in the report ‘Beyond Cinderella: Towards a Territory Ministers at the June 1997 meeting of the learning society’ have been formulated has present- Ministerial Council for Education, Employment, ed some difficulties in responding to the report. Training and Youth Affairs (MCEETYA). Both the The two key recommendations are: report and the new National Policy will contribute significantly to promoting and advancing ACE . Recommendation 2, which calls for a combined nationally. National ACE/VET policy; and State and Territory governments have primary . Recommendation 3, which calls for the replace- responsibility for the ACE sector. The ment of ANTA by a new body, the National Commonwealth’s role is primarily policy advisory. Adult Community and Vocational Education and Consequently, many of the recommendations will Training Authority (NACVETA). require consideration by State and Territory govern- Recommendations 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 18, 19 and ments. 20 are subsequently formulated in a way that makes Commonwealth support for the sector is manifested them dependent upon acceptance, and implementa- in a number of ways, including: tion, of Recommendations 2 and 3. . Commonwealth funding for the Adult and In response, the Government has chosen to respond Community Education Programme administered to the underlying intent of these recommendations, by the Australian National Training Authority rather than simply in the context of their depend- (ANTA), which provides significant support for: ence on Recommendations 2 and 3, which the research into ACE; activities such as Adult Government does not support. This allows for the Learners Week designed to promote the sector; important underlying issues raised by these recom- and the continuation of the Australian Associa- mendations to be considered in the Government’s tion of Adult and Community Education’s role response, regardless of its position on Recommen- as the peak body representing the sector; dations 2 and 3. 3258 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

RESPONSES TO INDIVIDUAL RECOMMEN- These initiatives are making participation in further DATIONS education and training a more flexible, attractive and viable option for Australians. Recommendation 1 The National Strategy for VET developed in 1994 The Committee RECOMMENDS that the identifies the creation and promotion of lifelong Commonwealth government: learning as a priority for VET.Similarly the Nation- . make an unequivocal commitment to the concept al Policy for ACE, adopted by Commonwealth, of lifelong learning and the promotion of a State and Territory Ministers at the June 1997 learning society; and meeting of MCEETYA stresses the importance of meeting the lifelong learning needs of adults and . imbue its education policies and associated fostering a culture of learning in Australian society funding mechanisms with the values and princi- and organisations. For example, under Strategic ples of lifelong learning for all Australians. Outcome 3 ‘Promoting ACE’ outcome 3.1 states: RESPONSE . ’Governments, communities, industry and other The Commonwealth supports this recommendation. education sectors increasingly recognise the role of ACE as an important agent of lifelong learn- The pace of technological and structural change has ing.’ made it increasingly necessary for individuals to participate in further education and training on a Recommendation 2: regular basis if they are to acquire, maintain and The Committee RECOMMENDS that the enhance the skills necessary to participate effective- Commonwealth Government bring together the ly and fully in the labour market and other areas of National ACE Policy and National VET Policy to society. establish an integrated National Adult Community and Vocational Education and Training Consequently, over the past decade or so, govern- (NACVET) Policy giving effect to the commitment ments in Australia and overseas have come to to lifelong learning. recognise that the traditional pattern of full-time education and training followed by a working Recommendation 3: career in which further education and training play The Committee RECOMMENDS that, in order to a minimal role will no longer meet the needs of all implement, monitor and fund the new NACVET individuals in modern industrialised societies. The Policy the Commonwealth government restructure Commonwealth’s response has been to develop and ANTA to establish the National Adult Community implement education and training policies within and Vocational Education and Training Authority the overall context of a growing need for lifelong (NACVETA). The membership of the Authority’s learning. Board will be modified to ensure that an adequate Commonwealth policies and initiatives now in ACE perspective is available to the Authority, and place that promote and advance the concept of life- the way in which the Authority distributes its funds long learning include: should reflect its revised charter. . a schools literacy and numeracy strategy that will RESPONSE ensure that students acquire the basic literacy and The Commonwealth does not support these recom- numeracy skills necessary for effective participa- mendations. tion in the labour market and/or post-school education and training; The Commonwealth’s main priority in relation to lifelong learning is to ensure that Australians have . initiatives in vocational education and training, the skills and flexibility needed to meet the challen- such as refinements to the New Apprenticeship ges of continuing technological and structural system, and reformed labour market assistance change, and to compete effectively in an increas- arrangements which will maximise access to ingly globalised economic environment. appropriate post-school education and training for school-leavers, adults and the unemployed; The ACE sector and the VET sector have distinct and mainly separate purposes which are reflected . providing an increasingly demand driven system in a largely government responsibility for VET where end-users have an effective say in deter- while ACE has developed largely from community mining the content and delivery of courses and impetus. Where there is an overlap of purpose, very a wider choice of provider; good arrangements for cooperation have been . enabling individuals to move more easily across developed, and as noted above there is strong the various education and training sectors; and support from government for ACE through the National ACE policy. Combining the two sectors . enabling individuals to gain formal recognition as recommended in the Report would tend to of skills acquired in informal contexts. undermine the primary objectives of each and Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3259 detract from Commonwealth Government efforts to States and Territories a set of Adult Community improve the vocational prospects of school leavers. and Vocational Education and Training (ACVET) Under the new arrangements for labour market Agreements. These Agreements will require each assistance, there is potentially a new role for ACE. State and Territory to develop Adult Community ACE providers will be able to become contracted and Vocational Education and Training (ACVET) Employment Placement Enterprises in their own Profile consistent with the National Policy. right, and/or provide labour market training to the RESPONSE clients of Employment Placement Enterprises The Commonwealth does not support this recom- (EPEs) that meets the specific requirements of the mendation. EPE and its client. To the extent that ACE providers deliver publicly Revised ANTA Agreement funded VET courses, they are already included in The Commonwealth government has recently the State’s Annual VET Plans negotiated between settled a revised ANTA Agreement with State and ANTA and States/Territories.From 1998 these plans Territory Ministers for submission to respective will be more strategic and outcomes focussed and State and Territory Cabinets for approval. The performance will be measured against agreed revised Agreement commits the Commonwealth to Annual National Priorities. The ANTA Ministerial maintain funding in real terms for the life of the Council has already agreed to the priorities for revised Agreement (1998—2000) and the States 1998. and Territories to achieve growth from efficiencies. Recommendation 6: The revised Agreement continues to cover voca- tional education and training separately from ACE. The Committee RECOMMENDS that: Work is also under way on a new National Strategy . in order to be eligible for Commonwealth funds, for VET to provide the framework for the States, providers be registered as a quality provider with Territories and ANTA to achieve the objectives of a State or Territory Education and Training the revised Agreement. Authority; Recommendation 4: . registration be based on providers meeting The Committee RECOMMENDS that the new standards of quality set by the relevant industry, NACVET Authority report annually to the Austral- professional or educational association; ian Parliament on the achievement of policy out- . three broad categories of providers be registered comes. as follows: RESPONSE Category A Specific Industry Education & The Commonwealth does not support this recom- Training mendation, which is dependent upon implementa- Category B Non-specific Industry Education & tion of Recommendations 2 and 3 above which the Training Commonwealth does not support. Category C General Education & Training The National Policy on ACE, endorsed by Commonwealth, State and Territory Ministers at the RESPONSE June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA, contains specific The Commonwealth does not support this recom- processes for monitoring, evaluating and reporting mendation. on progress under each of the National Goals of the In many instances, access to Commonwealth funds policy. These processes include: should be contingent upon the provision of accred- . an annual report to MCEETYA (reports from ited training, as is the case with VET funding, not each State and Territory against the National simply that provided by a registered provider of Goals and Outcomes will form the basis of the training. annual report); The proposal to make it an essential requirement . regular monitoring of progress at the National, for eligibility for Commonwealth funds that provid- State and Territory level by MCEETYA through ers be registered is too restrictive. It has the its ACE Taskforce; potential to restrict the flexibility required to best . a mid-term review 18 months after endorsement accommodate the education and training needs of of the policy (ie by end 1998); and Australians. . a further review in the year 2000 to determine For example, under the labour market assistance the degree of success in achieving outcomes and arrangements, contracted organisations are free to to determine future strategic directions and goals. choose the type of labour market assistance, including training, they see as necessary to place Recommendation 5 job seekers in a job. The contracted organisations The Committee RECOMMENDS that the are also free to choose what they view as the most Commonwealth government negotiate with the appropriate form of training, regardless of whether 3260 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 it is accredited and/or provided by a registered Implementation of the National Policy on ACE, training provider. This flexibility is an essential endorsed by Commonwealth, State and Territory element of the arrangements. Registration of Ministers at the June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA, training providers would not add to this flexibility will address some of the underlying issues involved and would have an unfavourable effect on the in this recommendation. For example, outcomes operation of the labour market assistance arrange- linked to Strategic Objective 5 of the policy ments. The Commonwealth could not administer ‘Enhancing the contribution of ACE to the world such a registration scheme for the purposes of the of work’ state that: labour market assistance arrangements. . Increasing numbers of ACE providers will be The Commonwealth is already addressing key registered to deliver accredited programmes; issues related to registration requirements and . ACE providers will be increasingly able to associated quality and recognition issues. For compete in the open training market; and example, the National Training Framework for VET agreed by the ANTA Ministerial Council will . ACE will play a greater role in training for local include streamlined, quality assured training and regional labour markets. provider registration arrangements. In particular the Recommendation 7: Australian Recognition Framework was implement- The Committee RECOMMENDS that a National ed from 1 January 1998 and provides for the ACVET Equity Fund be established under the new mutual recognition of training organisations and the NACVET Authority to target groups currently qualifications issued by those organisations. under-represented in education and training. The aim of the National Training Framework is to RESPONSE produce flexible quality training outcomes with a national qualifications outcome. The Commonwealth does not support this recom- mendation as it is dependent upon implementation ACE providers who wish to become VET Regis- of Recommendation 3, which the Commonwealth tered Training Organisations can use the flexibility does not support. of this new approach to develop training programmes which are responsive to their clients’ Existing Commonwealth policies already recognise needs. The Commonwealth has reservations about the need for disadvantaged groups to have equitable the proposal for the registration of three broad access to education and training opportunities, and categories of providers: numerous initiatives are already in place to improve access to and participation in education and training . effective criteria for distinguishing between these by disadvantaged groups.The participation of categories would be extremely difficult to disadvantaged groups in the Government’s new develop; labour market assistance arrangements will be . there would be considerable difficulties in monitored to ensure that the relative representation applying the distinctions; and of disadvantaged groups in labour market assistance is maintained. . implementation of the proposed distinctions ANTA has a number of projects under way to would have significant effects on the current address the needs of identified client groups, to classification of courses, adding further com- improve their access to and participation in training plexity to already complex classification issues. and to enhance the quality of outcomes for them The Commonwealth believes that when ACE within the national VET system. providers wish to access Commonwealth funding A new National Strategy for VET is currently being they should do so in the context of arrangements developed by ANTA in collaboration with the that have been put in place for the provision of Commonwealth, States, Territories and industry. various forms of training. For example: The strategy will provide a framework for planning . to access VET funding they should meet the and determining major directions for the training appropriate VET registration arrangements; and system. It will be developed around five key objectives, one of which is achieving equitable . to access funding under the new arrangements outcomes in VET. for labour market assistance, they should either: States and Territories are responsible for delivery - seek to become contracted Employment and administration of VET under ANTA arrange- Placement Enterprises in their own right; ments and have funded a range of initiatives to and/or assist disadvantaged people. States and Territories - provide labour market training to the clients of report progress against the National Strategy. Employment Placement Enterprises (EPEs) The Authority has developed, in consultation with that meets the specific requirements of the advisory groups, a number of strategies to achieve EPE and its client. access and equity in vocational education and Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3261 training, which are described in Equity 2001 . give priority to the infrastructure and capital released by ANTA in September 1996. requirements of community-based providers of In the development of specific strategies to achieve ACE; significant improvements in access and equity, . require that State and Territory governments ANTA seeks advice from advisory groups (such as assist community-based ACE providers to meet the Disability Forum and the Aboriginal and Torres the costs of becoming registered providers; and Strait Islander Peoples’ Training Advisory Council) . require that ACE providers have formal represen- which include, among their members, representa- tation within the State and Territory ACVET tives who bring community education views to this Profile processes. consultation process. RESPONSE The National Policy on ACE endorsed by Commonwealth, State and Territory Ministers at the The Commonwealth does not support this recom- June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA has a strong mendation. focus on equity. For example: In relation to the first two points of the recommen- . under ‘Vision’ the Policy states: dation, these are matters for consideration by State - ’ACE provision will be determined and shaped and Territory governments, which have primary by the learning needs of communities across responsibility for ACE. Australia to ensure that: people from all The Commonwealth is, however, aware that many backgrounds and circumstances have equitable community based ACE providers have difficulty in access to the knowledge, skills and under- raising capital for infrastructure and other needs. It standings they need to participate fully in the is also aware that that there is a large stock of economic, social and cultural life of the publicly funded school, VET and higher education community’; and buildings and infrastructure which is currently not . goal 3 ‘to strengthen the responsiveness of ACE made available to other than public providers. to learners’ (one of the three overall goals Increased access to those facilities could be an enunciated in the National Policy) addresses important element in meeting the infrastructure equity issues in detail: needs of the ACE sector. - strategic objective 6 ‘fostering inclusiveness’ Much progress on ACE access to this infrastructure (one of three strategic objectives for goal 3) has already been made. Many universities provide states that fostering inclusiveness is ‘Ensuring access to a range of community-based ACE provid- that adults have equitable access to learning ers, as do some schools and Colleges of TAFE. opportunities appropriate to their needs As State and Territory governments have responsi- throughout life.’; and bility for, and control of, schools and public VET - the outcomes linked to objective 6 (which institutions, while higher education institutions are provide a yardstick against which progress can autonomous bodies, the implications of this recom- be measured) draw specific attention to ensur- mendation will have to be considered by them. ing greater participation in ACE by disadvan- taged groups and that equity principles are The registration of training providers is a quality built into all ACE services. assurance process that benefits both the provider and the client. In any consideration of the proposal The endorsement by State and Territory govern- that ACE providers receive assistance to meet the ments of the National Policy on ACE, ensures that, costs of registration, the implications in relation to in their strategies designed to achieve the goals and national competition policy would need to be objectives of the policy, States and Territories will considered. give due weight to mechanisms for improving equity outcomes.ACE providers have an important The Commonwealth will suggest that MCEETYA role in the provision of learning opportunities for give further consideration to the underlying issues the more disadvantaged groups in the community. raised by the first two elements of this recommen- The work of ACE with women, rural and isolated dation. communities and Indigenous Australians is of As noted under Recommendation 5 above, ACVET particular importance in increasing access to Profiles are not supported by the Commonwealth. education and training. Funding for these groups is Recommendation 9: an issue for the States and Territories to be deter- mined within the ACE funding context. The Committee RECOMMENDS that, where they have not done so, States and Territories report on Recommendation 8: the delivery by ACE providers of both accredited The Committee RECOMMENDS that the and non-accredited programmes as part of the State Commonwealth government and Territory ACVET Profile processes. 3262 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

RESPONSE cooperative and collaborative arrangements are well The Commonwealth does not support this recom- established) collaborative tenders are already mendation as it is dependent upon implementation encouraged. The ACE sector’s strengths in provid- of recommendation 5, which the Commonwealth ing programmes for some under-represented groups does not support. have been recognised in this context. The Commonwealth does however agree with the Wherever appropriate, ANTA uses public tendering underlying intention of this recommendation, processes for research activity, and collaborative namely that there should be some mechanism for tenders which bring together organisations with the collection of statistics on both accredited and different strengths. Selection criteria usually include non-accredited courses/programmes delivered by demonstrated knowledge of the VET sector, and as ACE providers. ACE sector organisations become more familiar with the development of the national VET system, A number of measures are already in place for the they will be in a better position to develop col- collection of data on ACE activity. laborative tenders with other organisations. The implementation of the Australian Vocational The Commonwealth recognises that, for some Education and Training Management Information services put out to tender, it would be appropriate and Statistical Standard (AVETMISS) was agreed to encourage collaboration among tenderers. We by Commonwealth, State and Territory Ministers would expect that it is now standard practice at all in 1992. It was also agreed to include adult and levels of government in Australia to include clear community education data from 1995. The Standard performance indicators in tender documentation. was designed to limit the volume of information required from these providers, in comparison to the Recommendation 11: information required from TAFE providers. The Committee RECOMMENDS that the For this purpose, an ACE Statistical Collection Commonwealth government establish a dedicated Taskforce was established. The Taskforce included research program to examine the relationship representatives of adult and community education between intellectual activity and good health, and providers. The inclusion of all activity by recog- the ways in which that relationship might be nised ACE providers, both vocational and recrea- enhanced. tional, accredited and non accredited, was aimed to RESPONSE facilitate the measurement of the role of adult and community education providers in the VET sector. The Commonwealth agrees with the underlying intent of this recommendation. Also, as noted under Recommendation 4 above, the National Policy on ACE contains specific processes The relationship between intellectual activity and for monitoring, evaluating and reporting on pro- good health is an issue that is beginning to be gress under each of the National Goals of the addressed in Australia and overseas in the context policy. These processes may well involve reporting of the pressures placed on governments by the on the delivery by ACE providers of both accredit- ageing of populations. A number of Commonwealth ed and non-accredited programmes. funded projects have already examined issues Recommendation 10: relating to the relationship between intellectual activity and health. The Committee RECOMMENDS that the new NACVET Authority review its guidelines for The findings of both the Action Research competitive tendering in order (a) to incorporate Programme and Community Network Pilot ele- selection criteria which encourage collaborative ments of the Commonwealth Department of Social tenders, and (b) to require the specification of clear Security’s Community Research Project provide performance indicators in tender documentation. qualitative evidence of a positive link between physical and intellectual engagement in community RESPONSE based activities, social capital, personal well being The Commonwealth does not support this recom- and the subjective elements of good health. Such mendation as it is dependent on implementation of links are being specifically investigated in the Recommendation 3, which the Commonwealth does Health Development and Social Capital project not support. funded by the National Health and Medical Re- States and Territories have responsibility for search Council and being undertaken by the South allocating Commonwealth funding for VET distri- Australian Community Health Research Unit. buted to them through the Australian National Results from the Australian Longitudinal Study on Training Authority. ANTA does not require States Women’s Health will also have the capacity to and Territories to provide information on their inform decisions about the relationship between arrangements for competitive tendering. However, intellectual activity and good health. As the re- particularly where there are strong links between search participants involved in the Longitudinal ACE and VET systems (such as in NSW where Study are followed over time, more information Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3263 will become available to examine this relationship On 23 November 1997 the Minister for Family and the factors that affect it. Services announced that the Federal Government As a result of the findings from this and other will develop a National Strategy for an Ageing research, some programmes for older people and Australia as a vehicle to examine the broad policy mental health initiatives implemented by the issues created by population ageing and to provide Commonwealth Department of Health and Family a framework for activities already under way to Services already take into account the relationship improve the well being of Australians as they age. between intellectual activity and good health. It is envisaged that the National Strategy for an Recommendation 12: Ageing Australia will involve a whole of govern- ment consideration of the short, medium and long- The Committee RECOMMENDS that the term issues associated with population ageing to Commonwealth government: assist in the development of a broad ranging . commission a report on best practice in (a) the blueprint for action to address ageing in the provision of pre-retirement education, and (b) in twenty-first century. The Strategy will build on the adult education programs targeting older Austral- draft National Healthy Ageing strategy and the ians living in institutional or retirement village work being done by the Conference for Older settings; Australians in relation to the 1999 International . draw together a coalition of peak senior citizens Year of Older Persons. groups and adult education organisations to Recommendation 13: advise on matters relating to third age education; The Committee RECOMMENDS that the . establish a steering group drawn from relevant Commonwealth urge State and Territory education Government departments to develop and imple- authorities to develop guidelines for the accessible ment a nationwide promotional campaign on the and affordable use of public education facilities by benefits of participation by older people in adult bona fide, non-profit providers. education. RESPONSE RESPONSE The Commonwealth agrees with the underlying The Commonwealth agrees with the underlying purpose of this recommendation. intent of this recommendation. Much progress on this issue has already been made. There are three avenues through which the intent Many universities provide access to a range of of this recommendation will be addressed: community-based ACE providers, as do some 1. The Conference for Older Australians. schools and Colleges of TAFE. This is an advisory forum comprising distinguished As State and Territory governments have responsi- older people established to advise the Common- bility for, and control of, schools and public VET wealth Government on its involvement in the institutions, while higher education institutions are International Year of Older Persons in 1999. The autonomous bodies, the implications of this recom- Conference will develop strategies to promote mendation will have to be considered by them. positive images of older people in the community Recommendation 14: and to provide advice on matters referred to it by, The Committee RECOMMENDS that the or through, the Minister for Family Services; and Commonwealth adopt learning and living in the 2. The Healthy Ageing Task Force third age’ as its theme for the 1999 International This group comprises representatives from Year of Older People. Commonwealth and State and Territory units on RESPONSE ageing, and was established by the Health and The Commonwealth is considering this as an option Community Services Ministers in October 1996. for the International Year of Older People. The Task Force has developed a draft National Healthy Ageing Strategy as a basis for consulta- An advisory forum, the Conference for Older tions across jurisdictions and final agreement by Australians, comprising representatives of the Health and Community Services Ministers. Issues Commonwealth Department of Health and Family raised in this recommendation are also covered by Services and distinguished older people, has already the draft National Healthy Ageing Strategy. been established to: Public consultations on the draft document are . advise the Commonwealth on its involvement in currently being undertaken by the Task Force. The the International Year of Older Persons; Department of Health and Family Services is . develop strategies to promote positive images of undertaking consultations with other Common- older people in the community; and wealth agencies and national bodies. . provide advice on matters referred to it by, or 3. The National Strategy for an Ageing Australia through, the Minister for Family Services. 3264 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

The Commonwealth will ask that consideration be significantly increased and managed by the new given by the Conference for Older Australians to NACVET Authority. ‘learning and living in the third age’ being adopted RESPONSE as the theme or one of the themes for the Interna- tional Year of Older Persons. As indicated in the response to Recommendations 2 and 3, the Commonwealth does not support the Recommendation 15: NACVET Authority element of this recommenda- The Committee RECOMMENDS that any follow tion. Funding for ACE projects through ANTA is up to the National Board of Employment, Educa- a matter for consideration in the annual Budget tion and Training (NBEET) study on technological context. convergence, or any future national studies on Recommendation 17: education and technology, take into account the ACE sector. The Committee RECOMMENDS that the Commonwealth seek a formal response to a draft RESPONSE of the revised National ACE Policy from key The Commonwealth agrees with the underlying women’s organisations such as the Network of purpose of this recommendation. Women in Further Education and from independent Many national projects and studies on education assessors with expertise in the analysis of gender and technology issues already consider the needs issues. of the ACE sector. RESPONSE Commonwealth and State Ministers of Education The Commonwealth agrees with the underlying and Training have established the Open Learning purpose of this proposal. Technology Corporation Ltd which provides services related to open learning for education and The new National Policy on ACE was finalised in training providers, including ACE sector providers. May 1997 after consideration by the MCEETYA Taskforce on ACE in early May 1997, and en- Under the Education Network Australia (EdNA) dorsed by Commonwealth, State and Territory initiative, an electronic EdNA VET Directory has Ministers at the June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA. been designed and implemented. The Directory The National Policy has a strong focus on equity. includes information on ACE. Additionally, an For example: ACE Reference Group is assisting the EdNA VET Advisory Group to design a directory structure for . under ‘Vision’ the Policy states: a dedicated ACE section of the Directory. - ’ACE provision will be determined and shaped Under the ACE National Programme in 1996/97, by the learning needs of communities across a research and development project on Convergent Australia to ensure that: people from all Technology in ACE was undertaken by the Adult, backgrounds and circumstances have equitable Community and Further Education Board in access to the knowledge, skills and under- Victoria and the results were widely disseminated. standings they need to participate fully in the economic, social and cultural life of the The National Policy on ACE, endorsed by community’; and Commonwealth, State and Territory Ministers at the June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA, indirectly . goal 3 ‘to strengthen the responsiveness of ACE addresses this issue. For example, two of the to learners’ (one of the three overall goals outcomes linked to Strategic Objective 8 of the enunciated in the National Policy) addresses policy ‘Enhancing the flexibility of learning equity issues in detail: opportunities available to adults’ are that: - strategic objective 6 ‘fostering inclusiveness’ . ACE practitioners have the capacity to make (one of three strategic objectives for goal 3) informed and appropriate decisions about the use states that fostering inclusiveness is ‘Ensuring of technology in meeting learning needs for that adults have equitable access to learning individuals and groups in their community; and opportunities appropriate to their needs throughout life.’; and . ACE providers have access to appropriate, affordable technology. - the outcomes linked to objective 6 (which provide a yardstick against which progress can The Commonwealth will draw the attention of be measured) draw specific attention to ensur- appropriate bodies such as the Open Learning ing greater participation in ACE by disad- Technology Corporation Ltd. and the Education vantaged groups and that equity principles are Network Australia to this report and, in particular, built into all ACE services. this recommendation. In developing the new policy key stake holders Recommendation 16: from all States and Territories were involved in an The Committee RECOMMENDS that the level of extensive round of discussions, consultations and the Commonwealth’s ACE Grants Program be workshops. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3265

Recommendation 18: Councils of Australia be consulted in the develop- The Committee RECOMMENDS that the new ment of ACE policies that affect disadvantaged NACVET Authority commission a study of best groups.The Commonwealth already recognises the practice in relation to the delivery of adult educa- potential of the ACE sector in meeting some of the tion and training to Aboriginal and Torres Strait needs of disadvantaged groups and will continue to Islanders by community-based providers consult with appropriate peak bodies and agencies in the development and implementation of policies RESPONSE that affect the disadvantaged. The Commonwealth does not support this recom- Recommendation 20: mendation as it is dependent on implementation of Recommendation 3, which the Commonwealth does The Committee RECOMMENDS the re-establish- not support. ment of the National Staff Development Committee under the new NACVET Authority. Its role should The Commonwealth does, however, agree with the be expanded to address the professional develop- underlying purpose of this recommendation. ment needs of teachers and administrators working Relevant research is already being undertaken. in community-based ACE providers. $30,000 of the National ACE Programme funds administered by the Australian National Training RESPONSE Authority was allocated in 1997 for a study to The Commonwealth does not support this recom- develop guidelines for best practice and mendation. benchmarking for the delivery of ACE programmes Professional development activity such as that to Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders. sponsored by the defunct National Staff Develop- This project, managed by the Federation of Inde- ment Committee is now largely undertaken through pendent Aboriginal Education Providers, aimed to the major Training Package developments funded investigate and clarify elements of best practice and by the Australian National Training Authority. benchmarking in Aboriginal controlled adult educa- Trainers, including community-based ACE provid- tion. The project involved consultation with com- ers, will be able to access this material when munity controlled Aboriginal Education providers delivering programmes based on Training Packages. affiliated to the Federation and resulted in the The National Staff Development Committee was development of guidelines for best practice and established during a period in which vocational benchmarking. These guidelines will be made education and training was delivered almost available to all providers of education and training exclusively by TAFE Colleges and reflected to Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders. nationally agreed strategies by governments to fulfil Following completion of this project, the Common- their responsibilities to develop their employees, the wealth will ask the MCEETYA Taskforce on ACE TAFE teachers. In a more diverse national VET to consider whether follow-up research, funded system, it is appropriate now to provide profession- from the National ACE Programme allocation, al development resources through the medium of should be undertaken. Training Packages—available to all providers. Recommendation 19: The Australian National Training Authority is also The Committee RECOMMENDS that the conducting other major projects addressing broad Commonwealth seek a formal input into the professional development needs in the Vocational proposed new NACVET Policy from Education and Training sector. Much of the materi- al resulting from these projects will prove of . the Commonwealth Office of Disability, from the assistance in addressing the professional develop- peak body National Industry Association for ment needs of ACE sector providers. Disability Services [formerly ACROD], and from an independent assessor with expertise in dis- The improvement of teaching and other profession- ability issues; and al skills in the ACE sector is primarily a matter for . the Federation of Ethnic Community Councils of employing authorities at the State and local level Australia, and other relevant organisations and has been addressed in the National ACE Policy concerned with educational opportunities for adopted by Commonwealth, State and Territory Australians with a first language other than Eng- Ministers at the June 1997 meeting of MCEETYA. lish. Recommendation 21: RESPONSE The Committee RECOMMENDS that the The Commonwealth supports the underlying Commonwealth government support a national principle of this recommendation, namely that, project to identify and develop standards for where appropriate, organisations such as the teaching and learning in community-based ACE Commonwealth Office of Disability, peak disability settings in a manner similar to the national ACE groups and the Federation of Ethnic Community Standards for Administrators and Managers. 3266 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

RESPONSE . Ms Lesley Johnson, Principal Project Officer, The Commonwealth supports the underlying Commonwealth State Relations, ANTA (nomi- purpose of this recommendation and will refer it to nated by ANTA to represent the VET sector). MCEETYA for consideration. Maintaining and The delegation played a successful role at the improving the standard of teaching and learning in conference, the outcomes of which were favourable all education and training environments remains an for Australia. For example: essential element in the Commonwealth’s overall . attendance of an official Australian Government education policies and strategies. delegation reaffirmed Australia’s commitment to Recommendation 22: adult education and its deserved international reputation in this area; The Committee RECOMMENDS that the Commonwealth government send a ministerial level . the invitation to Mr Greer to participate on the delegation to the Fifth International Conference on drafting committee was a clear acknowledgment Adult Education in Hamburg comprising relevant of Australia’s expertise and reputation; and officers of Commonwealth agencies, State educa- . the leading role played by the delegation in tion authorities and representatives of Australia’s ensuring that Indigenous education issues were ACE sector. reflected in the Declaration and Agenda for the RESPONSE Future was particularly commended by other conference participants. A copy of the Declara- This recommendation was supported by the tion and Agenda for the Future is provided at Commonwealth. Attachment B1 to this Response. An Australian Government delegation led by a Recommendation 23: senior Commonwealth officer attended the confer- ence, held in Hamburg from 14th to 18th July 1997. The Committee RECOMMENDS that the The conference addressed adult education issues of Commonwealth government: importance to all education and training sectors . undertake a precise analysis and costing of the providing education and training to adults. The public education activities of government depart- eight member delegation was comprised of: ments and agencies; . Mr Tony Greer, First Assistant Secretary of the . convene a national workshop of key government Department of Employment, Education, Training departments, information agencies and represen- and Youth Affairs’ (DEETYA) Vocational tatives of the ACE sector to explore public Education and Training Division, who led the education practice, and the implications for more delegation; effective and coordinated delivery of Common- . Ms Shelagh Whittleston, Counsellor for Labour, wealth public education programs. Education and Social Affairs (DEETYA’s RESPONSE representative on the Australian Permanent Public education or awareness campaigns undertak- Delegation to the OECD); en by Commonwealth Departments and agencies . Mr Jack Beetson, President of the Federation of are an essential element in implementing Govern- Independent Aboriginal Education Providers ment policy on a wide range of issues affecting all (FIAEP); portfolios. . Commissioner David Curtis, a Commissioner of The Commonwealth acknowledges that community- the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Com- based providers of ACE may often be well placed mission (ATSIC); to assist in the development of public educa- . Ms Sam Thomas, Director of the NSW Board of tion/awareness campaigns. For example, the ACE and Chair of the MCEETYA Taskforce on Australian Electoral Commission has utilised a ACE (Ms Thomas represented the Taskforce on range of adult and community education providers the delegation and was also MCEETYA’s to assist in the delivery of both long-term and nominee to represent State and Territory govern- short-term public education and information ment interests); initiatives. Many campaigns such as national public health . Dr Alistair Crombie, Executive Secretary of the awareness campaigns are undertaken in conjunction Australian Association of Adult and Community with State and Territory governments. State and Education (AAACE); Territory governments also undertake public . Professor Chris Duke, Deputy Vice-Chancellor education or awareness activities independently of and President of the University of Western the Commonwealth. Consequently, the recommen- Sydney’s Nepean Campus (nominated by the dation to ‘undertake a precise analysis and costing AVCC to represent the Higher Education sector); of the public education activities of government and departments and agencies’ raises issues that should Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3267 also be considered by State and Territory govern- As the committee report itself observes, ments. what is frustrating is that everybody involved The Commonwealth also believes that the com- in the education debate in this country ac- plexities involved in undertaking a precise analysis knowledges the worth of the adult and com- and costing of public education activities could munity education sector. Everybody will tell mean that the costs involved may outweigh the benefits obtained. Additionally, project management you just how worthy these organisations are practices already require Commonwealth Depart- and the importance of the work that they are ments and agencies to analyse the outcomes and undertaking. Again and again the concepts of cost-effectiveness of such campaigns. lifelong learning of all types are acknow- Senator CARR (Victoria) (5.58 p.m.)—by ledged in the official reports of government leave—I move: in terms of the benefits provided. This report here today acknowledges again the import- That the Senate take note of the document. ance of lifelong learning as a principle. It is This is the government’s response to the also indicated by the national vocational Senate Employment, Education and Training education strategy documents that have been report titled Beyond Cinderella: towards a developed over the years by governments at learning society. Yet again, I note that this all levels. The various Australian national government response is almost a year over- training authority officials will come before due, and I might begin my comments with the the Senate and equally explain how important observation of just how disappointing it is this sector is. But what we see again and that the government has taken so long to again is that that is about as far as it goes. produce a report which effectively says so little. It is a disappointment to me, and not Very limited sums of money are provided. just to me, I suspect, but to the 400,000-odd As I said, $185,000 through ANTA is an Australians who are currently involved with appallingly small amount of money given the the adult and community education sector in significance of this area of education. We this country. spend something like $3 billion a year on The report Beyond Cinderella: towards a public education for the vocational education learning society was the second report of the and training sector in terms of TAFE and Senate Employment, Education and Training various other measures, but a very small References Committee. The word ‘Cinderella’ amount of that $3 billion actually finds its in this context refers to the fact that this way towards this particular sector. particular sector, although it involves such a The recent ministerial council, held on 22 very large number of Australians, is treated May, on the national strategy for vocational badly by all levels in government. It is re- education and training for the period 1998 to garded as the poor relation of the education 2003 also identified the worth of the adult industry in this country. and community education sector. But no Despite the fact that some 400,000 people commitments have been made and no priori- participate in the various programs run by the ties have been established to ensure that adult and community education sector, the adequate levels of funding are provided for Commonwealth expends about $685,000 a people who undertake this work and who year—in 1997-98 it spent about that amount provide what are extremely important facili- of money—through the various international ties to many of our older Australians. Mature programs. Of that amount, about $185,000 aged people who are seeking entry back into goes to the peak body, the Australian Asso- the education system and a second chance, ciation of Adult and Community Education. people who have not been able to enjoy the Additional moneys are provided through the benefits of a formal educational setting National Centre for Vocational Education through the primary and secondary education Research and some assistance is provided system, those seeking English as a second through a tutor task force on adult and com- language programs, those seeking self-fulfil- munity education. DEETYA does do some ment and enrichment programs and all of very limited work in this area. those people who enjoy enormous benefit 3268 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 through the adult community education be taken to the adult and community educa- system do not have access to adequate levels tion sector that acknowledged just how of public support, despite all the pious re- important it was for this society to provide the marks that are made by governments. wherewithal, through the adult and communi- The essential problem is demonstrated again ty education facilities that are available, to in this government’s response, which says, provide at minimum cost the opportunity for ‘This is not our worry, this is somebody in excess of 400,000 Australians every year else’s problem. We are going to get a big to secure outcomes that allow them to achieve mirror and have a good look into it yet again, full participation. This is a consideration that but we are not actually going to do anything goes beyond a more narrow vision of voca- about it. We are going to shunt this problem tional education and is obviously wanting in off to the states to deal with.’ These are all aspects. national issues of national concern and mat- It is a simple fundamental fact of life that ters that require a national response. in Victoria and a few other states there is a What we really have is a fundamental commitment—and I acknowledge this in problem that exists within the government’s terms of the Kennett government; these are thinking about the relationship between measures that have continued since our time education and training. The fundamental in government—with the particular acts of problem that arises is the confusion that exists parliament, to ensure that there is protection between the priority that should be given to for the adult and community education sector. what are narrowly defined as vocational But it does not happen too often. It has programs and the broader concerns about the happened because of the forwarding thinking importance of providing lifelong learning and of the Labor government in the 1980s. the wherewithal to ensure that education What you have are the simple facts such as allows for the effective participation of all the failure to acknowledge just how much citizens through the formal and informal money is actually spent by all governments educational systems that do exist, to ensure on this particular sector of education. There that there is effective citizenship and that is no reliable statistical basis to identify what people have the opportunity to maximise their the unit cost of education is in this particular personal goals, and to ensure that they can sector. There is simply not the attention given develop the skills to allow them to operate at to the adult and community education sector the highest level of participation, both in the that would allow us to develop this in a more world of work and in society more generally. effective manner than currently exists. I must We have a failure to build the necessary say that I am deeply disappointed with this infrastructure through community organisa- response. (Time expired) tions and through our formal educational Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) systems, be they TAFE or schools, to ensure (6.09 p.m.)—I rise to speak on this report on that there is an opportunity to build creative, adult and community education. This is the productive and socially satisfying relation- second report to the Senate this decade. The ships that will lead to people securing the adult and community education issue is necessary skills, habits of thought and ways something that the Senate Employment, of looking at the world that will allow them Education and Training Committee has taken to achieve those objectives. There is a funda- a great interest in through the 1990s. In 1991, mental problem in so far as the government we brought down the landmark Come in has failed to acknowledge the importance of Cinderella report. That was the very first this sector by putting its money where its report we did on a sector of education which mouth is. What this report demonstrates to the has contributed an enormous amount to Senate yet again is that this failure will education in this country. continue. The adult and community education sector What we on the committee argued for was is the so-called fourth sector of education— that a more comprehensive national approach the first being primary, the second being Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3269 secondary and the third being tertiary, univer- Senator Carr—Which is a lot more than sity and TAFE. What a lot of people do not what your government is going to do. realise is the actual massive size of this Senator TIERNEY—As a matter of fact, sector. For example, in the state of New the last Labor government set up an office South Wales, there are a million people doing relating to adult and community education in adult and community education courses of the federal bureaucracy, and during one some description. There are more students at estimates hearing, Senator Carr—I do not any one point in time in adult and community know if you were in the Senate at that time— education than in the universities and TAFEs I asked a question on it and they looked put together. The difference, of course, is that around for the officers to answer and they these are not three- or four-year long courses. could not find them. The minister at the desk A lot of adult and community education at the time was Senator Schacht, I think, and courses are quite short. They might go for a he said, ‘Gee, have we actually lost a whole few months or they might even go just for a division?’ That whole division was the equi- few weeks. But they are very important valent of about one or two people. components in learning, and they do an enormous amount for education in this coun- So let’s get it in perspective, Senator Carr. try and for the community generally. When you criticise this government about what we are doing in response to the report, People pick up very critical and important let’s look at what your government did in skills not only for their lives in general but response, which was very little indeed. You often these are little building bridges towards instituted a number of new measures, brought other levels of education. A lot of people, it in a new direction and did start to put a particularly those who have experienced federal focus, and given that today you have failure in the primary and secondary system paid tribute to Jeff Kennett and the work he and do not want to go anywhere near a has done in this area in Victoria, I will also university or a TAFE because of that, often pay tribute to that start you made. But let’s be gain confidence by spending time in one of serious about it, Senator Carr—you did not these short courses and then going on to really put many resources into it at all. higher education. It is the most cost effective We come to the report that we are dealing sector of education. Quite often courses are with today. I suppose the disappointing thing, run on shoestring budgets and with a lot of looking back on the approach of the commit- dedicated people assisting. It covers a very tee, was that we were moving towards saying wide range of areas in the community, and that the whole thing was a matter of reorgan- during our inquiries in 1991 and 1997 we ising the bureaucracy. I regret that we actually went and saw this. We went to diverse places. took that approach. I thought, having devel- We went into rural areas, migrant communi- oped a very good report the first time and ties, mental hospitals and prisons, and adult having started off in a new direction, that we and community education had a very major should have extended that a little bit further role in these areas. rather than just putting bits of bureaucracy In terms of the response to the reports by together. governments, it is interesting to see how this I think the hope for people in adult and has changed over the years. In 1991, the view community education is in the way in which initially was that adult and community educa- the job market structure is changing at the tion was something that should be handled at moment and the way in which intensive a regional or state level and the federal assistance works in the FLEX 3 where people government should not get very involved at can, as part of intensive assistance, get extra all. In the very first report, Come in Cinder- education and training. They do not have to ella, there were 33 recommendations to the go to the TAFEs or the universities; they can committee and the last Labor government actually go to adult and community education only ever implemented 11, and they did not providers if that is appropriate. These are very put very much money into it either. effective providers. They are very cost-effec- 3270 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 tive providers. I am sure that, under this new appropriate. We hear again and again of the regime that this government has set up, the importance of education for employment these adult and community education sector which days. Many people are able, with adult and is flourishing will continue to flourish. community education, to come back and Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) access education in a very affordable and (6.15 p.m.)—I would like to make some accessible way. comments about this report. First of all, it is We think this is a critical part of adult and very disappointing that we had a unanimous community education. We know its import- report from our committee that has been so ance, we know its success. It is hugely wel- significantly dumped on by the government in comed by the community and very largely this response. I think it is insufficient for participated in. Our report stressed the import- Senator Tierney to say that we made recom- ance of it, and this government has chosen to mendations for more bureaucracy and nothing give a big flick to the majority of this report. else. That is certainly not the case. I think I find that very depressing. In particular, the anybody in the Senate would acknowledge committee was interested to note that people Senator Tierney’s commitment to adult and from western suburbs and people from lower community education. I would like it if some- socioeconomic areas of the country were times he practised something of the same kind much less likely to access adult and com- of generosity and acknowledged the initiatives munity education than people from better off of the Labor government to get adult and areas and from the eastern suburbs. community education onto the political Secondly, a very large number of partici- agenda at all. pants were women, far more than men. It The whole point of this report was that, would be interesting if the government had given that adult and community education picked up on our drawing this to their atten- was on the political agenda, and given that tion, by saying that we think adult and com- there had been a very significant report, the munity education should have a universal Cinderella report from Senator Tierney and application and accessibility. So will you his committee, five years down the track we please find out why it is that men, and par- should have a look and see what was happen- ticularly men from working class or lower ing. You would have thought that the govern- socioeconomic areas, are not making the same ment would have been assisted in the whole access and use of adult community education approach to adult and community education as others. It is a very important point. by our reflecting on the state of play. The For some of my colleagues age has begun Labor government, in supporting adult and to weary us, and it is important that we community education, particularly focused on recognise another very important point from the vocational education training end of adult this report: that is, the importance of continu- and community education. This report was ing intellectual activity of adult and communi- saying, very importantly, but you have forgot- ty education for preventing the onset of ten one large part of adult and community Alzheimers. I am not at all sure that this is education, and we want to recommend that it proven yet, but there is some nicely doc- not be overlooked. umented evidence that if you do your daily There are a number of reasons why. My crossword and regularly play bridge you can colleagues have spoken about it, and the hold off the onset of senility. report spells out the importance of adult and Senator Coonan—And eat Freddo Frogs. community education for people who missed out the first time through in education, for Senator CROWLEY—I am not at all sure people who got through school without being what contribution that makes to this discus- able to read and write, for people who went sion, but I take it that it is meant well. It may through school and now need to upgrade their be that we do not necessarily have to play skills. Their education was all right for them bridge and do the daily crossword, but it is when they left school but it is no longer very interesting. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3271

The evidence brought to the committee is However, we also know that not all communi- quite clear, and it is of great concern to us ty groups can move or want to move. They that, as more and more Australians are going are differently accessible for people, and I am to live to a ripe old age, it is important that very disappointed that the government sees no more and more of those Australians feel as need to try to support the capital needs of though they have something useful to do with community and neighbourhood adult and their lives, something to contribute to the community education centres, in particular, community. One of the best ways they feel that of supplying a computer. The government that they can participate, keep up with events has a lot of requirements in terms of data and going on in their community, interest them- reporting back but no appreciation that to selves in whatever, is if they have access to provide that kind of data centres will need the adult and community education. I note that assistance of some capital money, in particu- the government is somewhat grudging but at lar, for a computer. least a bit sympathetic to the notion that we The final point I wish to make is the over- should look at the impact in terms of health, whelming rejection of this report. That has to particularly the health dollar costs, of the be a disappointment for all of us but, I would points that I have made. have thought, particularly for those govern- People may smile and say, ‘We are not sure ment colleagues who have actually been that it is true about bridge and the daily belted out of court by their own government. crossword,’ but we do know that the relation- I find it particularly disappointing that, in ship between intellectual activity and good rejecting the principal recommendations, the health is an issue that is beginning to be government points out that there is a signifi- addressed. I do appreciate that this point has cant difference between ACE and VET. The been taken up. The trouble is that it does give whole raison d’etre of this report was to say weight to the notion of adult and community that we recognise that, in picking up adult and education being something for old people to community education, the previous govern- do to keep themselves gainfully distracted. ment had done that very well, but the focus That is not what adult and community educa- and the large amount of money had gone to tion is about at all. I certainly hope that the vocational end and ignored, or somewhat because of this report, through its support at minimally supported, the ACE end. The least of that recommendation, the Common- whole report was about putting those two wealth will establish a dedicated research together, but the government sees fit to program to examine this. I am not sure that continue the separation. In particular, they go they will do that, but they are certainly going on to say: to look at the connection between health and Anyhow under the new labour market assistance intellectual activity. I would hate this to be there is a potential for a new role to ACE. ACE taken as any way skewing adult and com- providers will be able to become contracted em- munity education to old people and the basket ployment placement enterprises in their own right weavers in our community. It does no credit and/or provide labour market training to the clients to what adult and community education is of employment placement enterprises (EPEs) and that meet the specific requirements of the EPE and about. its client. I am disappointed that there was no support We have heard already of the unmitigated for the recommendation regarding the capital shambles called the establishment of the new needs of adult and community centres, par- Job Network under this government. There ticularly those in the neighbourhoods and in are thousands of community organisations the community. One of our recommendations possessing previously gained expertise and says that we would like to see educational skills that have been totally disregarded. Why facilities like schools more available for use anyone would think that an undercapitalised by other community groups, and adult and community centre for adult and community community education might be an entirely education might now be able to leap in to appropriate group to use such facilities. become a contracted employment placement 3272 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 enterprise without that backup and support is, representative task force to advise Governments on I think, drawing a very long bow or, in fact, the legal aid system and its place in Australia’s sheer folly. justice system. Response While I would hope that people who attend any such centres may be able to get assistance The Government is satisfied that existing mecha- nisms for provision of research and policy advice with their employment, the suggestion that to the Government are sufficient to allow the you can reject the thrust of our report by Government to foster reform and ensure more cost suggesting that adult and community educa- effective service delivery and greater national tion centres become employment placement equity in the provision of services. These mecha- enterprises is unlikely to happen. And it nisms include Commonwealth representation at completely misses the point of why we regular meetings with legal aid commission direc- tors through the National Legal Aid forum, partici- reviewed adult and community education with pation in the Law Council of Australia’s Strategic the Come in Cinderella report. What it means, Initiatives Committee, and involvement in criminal of course, is that this task remains for the law and family law groups. Appropriate funds have return of a Labor government. been allocated to achieve these goals and the Government is of the view that commitment of Question resolved in the affirmative. more Government funds would not add value to the Legal and Constitutional References legal aid system. Committee Second Report 26 June 1997 Recommendation 1 Report: Government Response The Committee recommends that the Government, Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister in cooperation with the Law Council of Australia, for Resources and Energy) (6.24 p.m.)—I undertake research to determine the extent and present the government’s response to the first nature of, and the motivation for, the legal and second reports of the legal and constitu- profession’s subsidy of legal aid provision in tional reference than committee on its inquiry Australia. into the Australian legal aid system. I seek Response leave to incorporate the respond in Hansard. The Government recognises that the private legal Leave granted. profession, academics and students in law, play a significant role in providing free legal services for The response read as follows— disadvantaged members of the community. The Senate Legal and Constitutional References Government also recognises the continuing vital Committee Inquiry into the Australian Legal role played by members of the profession in the Aid System ongoing provision of legal aid. The Senate Legal and Constitutional References Research into the legal profession’s motivation in Committee has released two reports on its Inquiry cooperating with and assisting in the provision of into the Australian Legal Aid System. The first legal aid and to determine the ‘extent and nature’ report was tabled on 26 March 1997. The second of the legal profession’s involvement is not an report was tabled on 26 June 1997. appropriate role for Government and is best left to The Government has carefully considered the issues Law Societies and Bar Councils. raised in the Committee’s reports and believes that Recommendation 2 the major recommendations of the Committee are already being addressed. The Committee further recommends that the Government formally acknowledge the contribution Throughout the Government’s response the term of the legal profession through an annual award "child representative", which is the current term program recognising the pro bono work undertaken under the Family Law Act, refers to "separate by individuals and firms. representatives" as used in the Senate Committee’s reports. Response This is the Government’s response to the While the Government is deeply appreciative of the Committee’s recommendations. involvement of the private legal profession in First Report 26 March 1997 providing pro bono legal work, it does not see that it has a role in recognising the work of individuals Recommendation and firms. The Government recognises that indi- The Committee recommends that the Government viduals and firms have their own motivations for give consideration to establishing a high level providing pro bono services and that pro bono work Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3273 is generally seen as accepting a responsibility to to complete its consideration of the impact of the society. Individual legal aid commissions or Law Dietrich principle as a matter of priority. Societies may wish to embark on developing an award system, identifiable by a certificate or other Response recognisable public symbol, as a demonstration of The Government is already fully committed to their appreciation. resolving the issue through SCAG as an issue of Recommendation 3 priority. The South Australian Government has developed draft legislation in 1996 to deal with the The Committee recommends that the Government, implications raised by the Dietrich decision. SCAG in cooperation with the Law Council of Australia, is awaiting receipt of the amended Bill for further give consideration to the establishment of a new consideration. (South Australia has been having initiatives development and evaluation fund to difficulty in finalising the Bill and is reviewing its encourage the trialling of innovative methods of approach in line with the Kable v DPP decision). providing legal information, advice and education provision by legal aid services providers. Such a Recommendation 6 fund would preferably have an out years component The Committee recommends that the Common- to enable successful and effective initiatives to wealth Government ensures that adequate funding continue to function and provide incentives for is available to legal aid commissions for the sponsor involvement. provision of separate representation of children in Response family law matters having regard to the guidelines set down in the Re K decision. The pursuit of innovative service delivery is not something that requires additional funding. Under Response the new Commonwealth State/Territory agreements the Commonwealth provides funding for matters Under the recently negotiated Commonwealth/State arising under Commonwealth law including primary funding arrangements, family law matters have dispute resolution services, legal advice, legal been identified as a priority for expenditure of information and community legal education ser- funds for grants of legal assistance. One of the vices. Within this framework new initiatives are Commonwealth’s highest priorities is children being appropriately researched and piloted to caught up in Family Court disputes. Funding for determine the usefulness of such practices by legal child representatives is ensured within this priority, aid commissions. For example, Legal Aid Queens- as part of the general allocation of funds to cover land has established an information kiosk in its Commonwealth matters. head office which provides legal aid clients with an Recommendation 7 online touch screen service which allows clients to search for information on a range of legal problems The Committee recommends that the Attorney- and print out forms (basic divorce papers can be General’s Department, in cooperation with legal aid filled out and printed off within 20 minutes using service providers and the Family Court, initiate the this service). Legal Aid Queensland is also trialling development of a sophisticated model to determine electronic lodgement of legal aid applications by a more precisely the level of resources required to number of private law firms and developing a provide separate representation for children in simplified method of means testing applicants for appropriate situations. Such a model will enhance legal aid. the ability of the Government to appropriate sufficient funds for the separate representation of Recommendation 4 children on a reviewable recurrent basis. The Committee recommends that the Common- The Committee notes concerns about the lack of a wealth should ensure that the impact of the national, uniform approach to the legal aid implica- Dietrich principle on the legal aid system is moni- tions of Re K. tored. Response Response The Dietrich principle is not solely an issue for the Existing mechanisms identify Commonwealth Commonwealth as legal aid for criminal matters is priorities and will ensure allocation of appropriate primarily funded by State Governments. The matter levels of funding. The Commonwealth will be is on the agenda of the Standing Committee of moving towards needs based funding for legal aid Attorneys-General (SCAG). SCAG will deal with commissions in future years. Quarantining funding the issues through a coordinated response. would reduce the flexibility of the legal aid com- missions to determine their budgets and would Recommendation 5 remove any incentive for service providers to The Committee further recommends that the pursue greater cost effectiveness in prioritising Attorney-General take up in SCAG the need for it services. 3274 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Recommendation 8 been levelled against those who operate The Committee recommends that the Common- within the legal aid system in this country. wealth Government develop national uniform guidelines to be applied by the legal aid commis- But no, we have seen what can be described sions when funding child representation matters. as a very pig-headed response. It is so bad Response that I think, to be kind to the attorney, the attorney himself has not read the report, has Legal assistance for matters of Commonwealth priority is administered by the respective legal aid not fully digested the recommendations that commissions under guidelines outlined in the were made, and has not taken into account the 1997/98 legal aid agreements. fact that the first report was a unanimous These guidelines ensure consistency across the report of the committee—a committee which range of commissions for the provision of assist- includes as its deputy chair Senator Eric ance in all Commonwealth matters, including child Abetz. Senator Helen Coonan is also on that representation matters. The Commonwealth has committee. The committee does have a reviewed these guidelines in consultation with National Party representative, but we never State/Territory governments, legal aid commissions see that individual at the committee. and other relevant bodies, with a view to imple- menting nationally consistent guidelines by 1 July Senator Carr—Not good enough; not up 1998. to it? The Government notes the minority report prepared by Government Senators on the Committee and Senator McKIERNAN—Not up to it. agrees with the commentary provided. Senator Sherry—Who is it who is never Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) there? (6.25 p.m.)—by leave—I move: That the Senate take note of the document. Senator McKIERNAN—It is Senator O’Chee who is never there—but the commit- The response that the Senate has received to tee thrives in his absence. That first report two reports of a Senate committee is, at the was presented to the chamber on 26 March very least and at the kindest, an insult to the last year. It has taken the Attorney-General, Senate. It is also a very sad reflection on a the first law officer, 14 months to prepare a failed Attorney-General. one-paragraph response to the one recom- It is an insult to the Senate because it is a mendation that is contained in the report—a further example, if one was needed, that the unanimous report. I repeat: it has taken him current first law officer of the Commonwealth 14 months. That is something that we are of Australia has no conception, no under- getting quite used to in the Senate Legal and standing of the havoc caused by the budget Constitutional Committee—an inefficient cuts made by the government in the area of administrator in the position of the first law legal aid; the government has no understand- officer of this country. We wait months, upon ing of the havoc those cuts have caused in months, upon months for answers to questions our community, and particularly within this in the estimates committee process, and we country’s legal aid system. will go through that argument again on The Attorney-General (Mr Williams) was Tuesday of next week when the department handed two quite mild reports from the Senate appear once more before the legislation Legal and Constitutional References Commit- committee to respond to the answers. tee. Those reports made constructive recom- The second report was a more considered mendations to the government—recommen- report and was presented on 26 June last year. dations which, had they been implemented, So it has taken 11 months to provide five would not have cost huge pain on the budget pages of response to eight recommendations bottom line. The recommendations, had they of the report—five pages which it has taken been accepted and acted upon, would have 11 months to prepare. The report itself, when gone a long way to easing the pain, easing the it was presented— burden that has been wrought on the citizens of this country, and the great pain that has Senator Cooney interjecting— Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3275

Senator McKIERNAN—My colleague has in the legal system of this country and his just intervened and prompted me to speak of intimate involvement, in his previous life a judge in New South Wales who has to before he became a member of parliament, in report to the New South Wales parliament the legal aid system—and there were many in next week, I believe; he is to give cause and that system who were dependent upon his reason why, in the exercise of his judicial knowledge and expertise in the system to try function, he should remain in his position as to bring some fairness into it—he has no a judge. If it is fair enough for a judge to appreciation even now. That is illustrated in have to do that, I think the Senate perhaps this response to this report but it was also ought to seriously consider whether or not the made very public when the Attorney appeared Attorney-General should be asked to give at a symposium organised by the Law Society cause as to why it takes him 14 months to of Western Australia on 4 April last year. The prepare a one-paragraph response and 11 Attorney, in defending the actions of his months to prepare a five-page response to government after he had given some 12 eight recommendations. Those eight recom- months notice of what was going to happen— mendations, might I say without being insult- that $100 million was going to be taken out ing to the rest of my committee colleagues, of the system—stood up publicly and made were quite substantial but, nonetheless, they this statement: were not going to be a great draw on the We have got 8 per cent unemployment and we government’s budget. have got 20 to 30 per cent youth unemployment. They were serious and well considered That is what Mr Williams said. He went on recommendations. Indeed, most of the recom- to say, and this statement drew laughs from mendations that were made were actually the assembled audience, which included the agreed to by my government Senate col- chief justices of a number of the courts in leagues on the committee and they went Western Australia: through them in their minority report—a Let’s just put it fairly and squarely on the table. Is minority report, I might add, that stated a it legal aid or is it jobs for kids? qualification as to why it was a minority It is neither: $100 million has gone from the report. It said in the second paragraph: legal aid system, the unemployment rate is Whilst Government Senators were prepared, albeit still at eight per cent and youth unemploy- reluctantly to provide unanimity for this inquiry’s ment is actually rising. Despite the cuts that first report, such support cannot be forthcoming on this occasion due to the partisan nature and com- have been made to the legal aid system youth mentary of the Majority Report, for example unemployment is actually rising. Mr Williams paragraph 3.24. ought to do the decent, respectable thing: he How we became very partisan in paragraph should not sack just the individual who 3.24 I do not know. For those sensitive prepared this government response, he himself colleagues of mine it reads: should accept responsibility and present his resignation to the Prime Minister. Clearly, he When considering the implications of Australia’s international obligations, the Committee considers is just not quite up to the job of first law that the approach of the Commonwealth to quaran- officer of the Commonwealth. He, by his tine its responsibilities to Commonwealth matters actions, and the actions of the cabinet and in only is unrealistic, impractical and inappropriate. the budgetary consideration are putting the I think that my colleagues are pretty thin legal aid system into crisis. (Time expired) skinned if they say that that is partisan. But The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT my colleagues did go on to agree to the (Senator Watson)—The time for debate has majority of the recommendations that were now expired. contained in the report. Treaties Committee I started this contribution by saying some rather unkind things about the first law Report: Government Response officer, the Attorney-General, the Hon. Daryl Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for Williams MP. Despite his long involvement Communications, the Information Economy 3276 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 and the Arts) (6.34 p.m.)—I present the the actions already taken by Australia and New government’s response to the ninth report of Zealand within their respective Exclusive Economic the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties Zones. The Regional Agreement will provide a necessary and complementary addition to the range entitled Amendments to the Bonn Convention. of international actions already underway to deal I seek leave to incorporate the document in with albatross-fishing interactions, such as those Hansard. introduced by the Commission for the Conservation Leave granted. of Southern Bluefin Tuna (CCSBT) and the Com- mission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine The document read as follows— Living Resources (CCAMLR). GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO THE JOINT The fourth annual meeting of the CCSBT was held STANDING COMMITTEE ON TREATIES in Canberra in September 1997. Among other REPORT NO. 9 AMENDMENTS TO THE issues, at that meeting the Australian Government BONN CONVENTION continued to seek expansion of Commission Preamble membership to include all nations and entities which take a significant quantity of southern The Government has considered the report of the bluefin tuna. While the Commission was unable to Joint Standing Committee on Treaties into amend- reach agreement on a number of important issues ments to the Convention on Migratory Species of and the meeting has not been officially closed, Wild Animals (the Bonn Convention), and is agreement was reached on the need for urgent pleased to provide the following response. The action to facilitate closer cooperation in the work Government appreciates the support expressed by of the Commission of key nations and entities the Committee for the listing of one species of fishing southern bluefin tuna. Specifically, efforts albatross and two species of cetaceans in Appendix are to be made to encourage accession to the I, and ten species of albatross in Appendix II of the Convention of the Republic of Korea and Indo- Bonn Convention. nesia, and to secure the cooperation of Taiwan with Response to recommendations the Commission’s conservation and management The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties recom- measures. mends that the Australian Government continues its The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties recom- efforts to optimise membership of international mends that all Departments and agencies involved agreements such as the Bonn Convention, the in managing Australia’s membership of the Bonn Commission for the Conservation of Southern Convention ensure that funds are used to harness Bluefin Tuna, the Commission for the Conservation the available expertise in the most effective way, of Antarctic Living Marine Resources and the including the new technology in such areas as bait Convention on the International Trade in Endan- setting gered Species. The Government emphasises the need for effective The Australian Government will continue to pursue communication and coordination between all optimising membership of international agreements agencies responsible for implementing Australia’s with a view to ensuring the membership of each membership of the Bonn Convention to minimise agreement contains as many as possible of those duplication and ensure the maximum benefit is nations affected by or influencing the subject matter obtained. Those agencies have developed close, of the agreement. cooperative links and regularly exchange views on Australia will be actively seeking conclusion of a issues such as those relating to conservation, southern hemisphere regional agreement under the management and research. Bonn Convention. Under the terms of the Conven- The incidental capture of albatrosses during fishing tion, membership of Regional Agreements should operations is a major source of mortality. It also is include all Range States of the listed species, a major source of cooperation between nature including those which are not members of the Bonn conservation and fisheries management agencies. Convention. The Australian Government will seek These agencies and representatives of the Austral- the cooperation of a number of nations which are ian fishing industry are cooperating in the develop- not members of the Bonn Convention in concluding ment of a Threat Abatement Plan (TAP) for the and implementing the proposed Regional Agree- incidental catch (or bycatch) of seabirds in longline ment. A first step will be detailed discussions with fishing operations, due for completion in July 1998. Valdivia Group members on the feasibility and Discussions between the Australian Fisheries nature of the proposed Regional Agreement. Management Authority (AFMA), the Department The Government proposes that the effect of a of Primary Industries and Energy, Environment Regional Agreement will be to ensure effective Australia and the fishing industry have identified global action to address the conservation of alba- as high priority research into longline gear intended trosses. The Regional Agreement will complement to reduce albatross mortality, examination of the Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3277 different impacts of day and night setting upon related information. The Authority is also examin- albatross catches, and dissemination of information ing who should pay for each aspect of the observer on seabird bycatch reduction to fishers. program through the application of the Common- In terms of introducing effective mitigation at the wealth Fisheries Cost Recovery Policy (March international fisheries level, the Government 1994). The review is scheduled for completion considers the CCSBT to be a critical area of focus. during 1998. Issues relating to the incidental capture of seabirds Under its current observer program AFMA regular- are discussed by the Commission’s Ecologically ly employs (under contract) observers with scientif- Related Species Working Group (ERSWG). A ic training and expertise in seabird biology and formal Australian ERSWG committee is to be field experience in pelagic longline operations, to formed to coordinate Australian actions both in and complement the information gathered by regular directed towards that forum. Membership of the observers. These observers are also given extensive committee will be drawn from all agencies with training and briefing on seabird bycatch monitoring. responsibilities relating to the conservation and The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties recom- management of both ecologically related species mends that the Australian Fisheries Management and fisheries. Authority hold discussions with the tuna fishing CCAMLR is another critical fisheries forum in industry with a view to arranging observed testing which action is being taken to conserve albatrosses. of such techniques as night setting of bait on the In 1994 the Commission formed a Working Group high seas. on Incidental Mortality of Albatross in Longline It should be noted that the overwhelming body of Fishing. Also in that year the Commission first existing scientific evidence is that night setting introduced conservation measures requiring the use substantially reduces seabird bycatch. A smaller of various mitigation devices, initially "tori poles" body of evidence suggests that catch rates of target but now a suite a measures. Australia will continue tuna species are largely unaffected by night setting. to actively pursue effective mitigation of the It is this latter point, and the associated safety incidental capture of albatross at both Commission aspects of night setting, that would be the focus of and Working Group night setting trials. To ensure the actions taken in one forum are Preliminary discussions with representatives from consistent with and complement those taken in both the domestic and Japanese tuna fleets, scien- another, close liaison takes place between lead tists and managers on night setting trials occurred agencies. This is particularly the case in the during August and September 1997 under the aegis development of the Australian positions for major of the CCSBT. However, a major issue as to international meetings such as the CCSBT and the whether not to proceed with the trials is the devel- Bonn Convention. opment of the TAP which is considering compul- The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties recom- sory mitigation measures (including night setting) mends that the Australian Fisheries Management for domestic and foreign longline vessels operating Authority examine all aspects of its observer in the AFZ. The draft TAP also proposes provisions program to establish the likely costs and benefits to enable domestic operators to work cooperatively of placing appropriately trained observers on with AFMA to design new mitigation techniques vessels within the Australian Fishing Zone and its and refine existing measures. The Authority Exclusive Economic Zone supports this approach. AFMA is currently considering the draft TAP to Australian vessels rarely fish the high seas for more abate the threat posed by oceanic longlining to than a short period. Further, conducting trials from seabirds. AFMA is a member of the Threat Abate- foreign (most likely Japanese) vessels on the high ment Team, formed to develop the TAP. The draft seas is a complex matter, although it could be TAP has raised the issue of observer coverage for pursued by the Government through the CCSBT. the purposes of collecting data on mitigation A more practical approach currently being con- measures and seabirds. Further, it seeks to maintain sidered is to have the trial conducted on Japanese current observer coverage on foreign vessels or domestic vessels or a combination of the two in operating in the Australian fishing zone (AFZ) and the AFZ. is considering its introduction on domestic vessels. Overall, AFMA in association with Environment The cost of this initiative is substantial (up to $1 Australia and the fishing industry will assess how million per annum if applied to the pelagic longline night setting trials should be progressed in the fleet). AFMA is currently reviewing its existing context of the development and implementation of observer program to improve its ability to deliver the TAP within the AFZ. It is possible that the a flexible, cost-effective service that can meet the development of the TAP and experimentation on needs of a number of Government departments and mitigation measures such as night setting can agencies in relation to the collection of fisheries- continue in parallel. 3278 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

The Government is aware there has been active I seek leave to have the second reading discussion in the CCSBT forum of the benefits and speech incorporated in Hansard. impacts of night setting. Night setting is one focus of Australia’s discussions within the CCSBT and Leave granted. in other relevant fora. At its first meeting the The speech read as follows— CCSBT’s Ecologically Related Species Working Group clearly identified night setting as the single The Child Support Legislation Amendment Bill most effective seabird bycatch mitigation measure. 1998 contains substantial measures which form part This view continues to be held, although there are of the major reform package to the Child Support insufficient data at present to determine whether Scheme announced by the Government on 30 this affects the catch of SBT. September 1997. The Government will actively pursue the introduc- The reform package underscores the fundamental tion of mitigation measures such as night setting in principle that parents are primarily responsible for the CCSBT and other suitable international fora. the financial support of their children. The Govern- ment, through these measures, will not intrude Membership unnecessarily into people’s lives. Rather, it will provide a safety net to ensure children are ad- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT equately supported and that the community is not (Senator Watson)—The President has re- asked to carry an undue burden. ceived letters from the Leader of the Opposi- The package addresses most of the concerns raised tion in the Senate seeking variations to the by the Joint Select Committee on Certain Family membership of certain committees. Issues. Motion (by Senator Alston)—by leave— Parents’ capacity to provide financial support agreed to: The administrative formula will be modified by That senators be appointed to committees as increasing the liable parent’s exempted income, follows: including an allowance for a shared care child and reducing a carer’s disregarded income. Child Employment, Education and Training Legislation support payable by a liable parent with a subse- Committee— quent family will reduce the income used in Substitute member: Senator Evans to replace calculating their entitlement to Family Allowance. Senator Carr for the consideration of the 1998- The bill will amend the basis of the administrative 99 budget estimates. formula by increasing a parent’s taxable income by Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation adding back rental property losses and including Committee— exempt foreign employment income. Substitute member: Senator West to replace It will also provide for a more accurate assessment Senator Quirke for the consideration of the through using the most current taxable income, 1998-99 budget estimates. thereby eliminating the requirement to apply an inflation factor. CHILD SUPPORT LEGISLATION Assessments are to be modified to take into account AMENDMENT BILL 1998 certain kinds of parents’ agreements as to care arrangements, both factual and lawful daily care of First Reading a child and a step-child where a liable parent has Bill received from the House of Representa- a legal duty to maintain the step-child. tives. The bill will extend the date by which a person may lodge an estimate of income up to 31 July. Motion (by Senator Alston) agreed to: The Registrar will be able to reject an estimate That this bill may proceed without formalities where it does not reflect the person’s income. and be now read a first time. The bill will reduce the complexity of the departure Bill read a first time. from assessment process, clarify the rights of parents to exchange information and the circum- Second Reading stances under which hearings will be granted. The Registrar will have the right to initiate a departure Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for when satisfied that a parent’s financial circum- Communications, the Information Economy stances are not accurately reflected in their child and the Arts) (6.36 p.m.)—I table revised support assessment. explanatory memorandum and I move: Parents’ rights and responsibilities That this bill be now read a second time. The bill will provide the following rights: Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3279

. either parent may apply for an administrative Joint Select Committee on Certain Family Law assessment of child support Issues. Other changes were introduced in 1997. In . the Registrar may suspend payments of child conclusion, as part of getting on with the job in this support where the Family Court has been asked area, the Government has established a task force to make a decision of Government Members to examine further proposed changes to the child support scheme. . parents may move from Child Support collection of child support to private collection by agree- I commend the bill to the Senate. ment at any time and the Registrar may require Debate (on motion by Senator Carr) parents to move to private collection where satis- adjourned. fied that regular payments are likely to continue . a parent may elect to end their administrative NATIONAL TRANSMISSION assessment where the Secretary to the Depart- NETWORK SALE BILL 1997 ment of Social Security has granted an exemp- tion NATIONAL TRANSMISSION . a child support assessment or agreement may NETWORK SALE (CONSEQUENTIAL continue until the end of the school year if a AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 child turning 18 is a full-time student . information shown on an assessment notice in Second Reading relation to children of a liable parent will be Debate resumed. limited Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for . parents may object to all decisions of the Regis- trar made in relation to administrative assess- Communications, the Information Economy ments. and the Arts) (6.36 p.m.)—I seek leave to Introduction of a child support minimum liability have the vote on the second reading to the including provision to withhold from income National Transmission Network Sale Bill support payments will emphasise the primary 1997 and the National Transmission Network responsibility of parents in caring for their children. Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1997 The Registrar’s power to reduce the minimum taken again. liability will be limited. However, if the liable parent is receiving less than $260 income, they may Senator Schacht—What is the explanation? make an application to the Registrar to seek to have The PRESIDENT—Perhaps I could throw the liability reduced to nil. some light on that. I was the person who The bill includes measures which will put greater missed the division at 12.40 p.m. I had gone onus on parents to notify changes in circumstances. to a function in the private dining room at Flexible and streamlined administration about 12.35 p.m. without my pager and I did The bill contains improvements to streamline not hear any bells up there, nor did anyone administration of the Scheme and provides greater draw my attention to it. I missed the division; flexibility to meet parents’ particular circumstances. I was in the private dining room at a function These improvements include: at the time. I ask the indulgence of the Senate . removing retrospectivity in relation to the com- to have the motion recommitted. I was the mencement of a liability person who missed the division. . enhancing payment options for liable parents Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) . providing flexibility in how information is provided (6.37 p.m.)—by leave—You have explained, Madam President, your misadventure, I think . allowing the Registrar to offset debts between parents. is the phrase often used when people miss a division. The Labor Party and the opposition Non agency payments make it clear that we have never, as far as I Arrangements for direct (non-agency) payments in am aware in my time, refused where people lieu of a child support liability have been changed in order to make them more flexible and allow have explained why they have missed a payers more choice in the form in which child division through circumstances beyond their support is paid by them, while protecting payees control or where it is quite reasonable. It and meeting the basic needs for children. happens to us all and it will happen consis- The important reforms in this bill will represent the tently to us all in the future. However, there second stage of this Government’s response to the is a consistent pattern that it seems to be the 3280 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 government members who overwhelmingly incompetence of the minister and the govern- are running into misadventure. ment in managing their own bill that the Madam President, you have a different minister is away abusing the ABC board and position and fulfil functions representing this leaves the parliamentary secretary here not chamber at numerous engagements from well briefed. So we have to have a filibuster lunches through to dinners, presentations, at the close of the second reading debate to launches, et cetera. My astonishment is why fill out the time until a quarter to one and the Manager of Government Business (Sena- then the opposition is told: ‘You are wasting tor Ian Campbell) did not arrange a pair for time. You are holding up the government’s the debate. program.’ It was a very poor performance today on The PRESIDENT—Perhaps I can help. I this issue. This was an important bill. It is the didn’t ask for one. privatisation of the National Transmission Senator SCHACHT—I see. Madam Presi- Agency, which the government has made dent, I respect the fact that you were being great play of. It is poor that the minister was diligent and thought that you would be able not present. I think it is poor that the parlia- to make the division. Being in the private mentary secretary was not able to handle the members’ dining room on the third floor, committee stage so he filibustered so we there is not much spare time out of four would not have to go into committee. Madam minutes to get back down here, anyway. President, we accept your explanation, as we The PRESIDENT—It is possible, but I always have, because we accept in these didn’t even try. I didn’t realise it was on. circumstances— Senator Knowles—You are not making Senator SCHACHT—Madam President, I sense; sit down. want to make this clear: we accept your explanation and, I think the phrase is, Senator SCHACHT—You will never make ‘misadventure’. That might be a bit too sense, Senator Knowles. So on this basis we enthusiastic in this case, a bit too wide a accept your explanation. Madam President, if description. We are not going to oppose the I may conclude, I think you should ask for a item being recommitted, but I would say to pair in the future. When you are representing the Government Manager and to you, Madam the Senate at these functions you should be President, with due respect, that if you as able to do so without having to rush for a President of the Senate are representing us at division. these functions it is only reasonable that you Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for have a pair. That, I am sure, would never be Communications, the Information Economy objected to by the managers of our side. and the Arts) (6.44 p.m.)—by leave—Madam President, you have my profoundest sympa- During the debate on this bill, the National thy. On our side we have very high standards. Transmission Network Bill, which the govern- I will just give you an example of that. I was ment has made very important, the Minister once in the middle of a squash game when for Communications, the Information Econ- the bells rang. I managed to get back to my omy and the Arts (Senator Alston) was office, get changed and be back here with 43 absent. He had to rely on the Parliamentary seconds to go— Secretary to the Treasurer (Senator Ian Camp- The PRESIDENT—Order, Senator Alston! bell). We had one of these strange times You need to seek leave to speak. where a parliamentary secretary, representing a minister who was absent, was actually Senator ALSTON—I seek leave. filibustering on his own bill to fill the in time Leave not granted. so he would not have to go into the commit- Question put: tee stage of a bill where there were some That these bills be now read a second time. technical amendments to be dealt with. Again, this certainly in no way reflects on the Presi- dent of the Senate. It certainly reflects on the The Senate divided. [6.48 p.m.] Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3281

(The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret DOCUMENTS Reid) Ayes ...... 34 Australian National University Noes ...... 32 Senator CARR (Victoria) (6.50 p.m.)—I —— move: Majority ...... 2 That the Senate take note of the document. —— It is with some regret that I rise to speak to AYES this report into the Australian National Uni- Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. versity. Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. Senator Ian Macdonald—We share your Colston, M. A. Coonan, H. regret. Crane, W. Ellison, C. Senator CARR—No doubt you will share Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. it a great deal more by the time I have fin- Gibson, B. F. Harradine, B. ished. I do not have any direct criticisms of Heffernan, W.* Herron, J. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. the Australian National University as an Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. institution, far from it. I think it is one of Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. Australia’s leading universities. What I am Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. saddened by is the situation that is revealed Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. in this report. The report notes on page 7 that Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. the university has suffered greatly as a result Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. Troeth, J. of the six per cent cutbacks in funding by this Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. government—a six per cent reduction in funding to the year 2000. It says that in cash NOES terms that is a cut of between $12 and $15 Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. million annually. Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Brown, B. Campbell, G. That is an extraordinary assault upon one of Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. Australia’s leading education institutions, and Conroy, S. Cooney, B. for that this government ought to be con- Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. demned. What you have got is a government Evans, C. V.* Faulkner, J. P. that is dedicated to the reduction in the Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. effectiveness of our higher education institu- Hogg, J. Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. Mackay, S. tions right across this country, not just at the Margetts, D. Murphy, S. M. ANU. But it is particularly noticeable at the Murray, A. Neal, B. J. Australian National University. O’Brien, K. W. K. Ray, R. F. The substantial reduction in the priority Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. given to education by this government has West, S. M. Woodley, J. seen a reduction of some $4.3 billion right across the portfolio of education. In higher PAIRS education, there are 21,000 fewer places as a Boswell, R. L. D. Bolkus, N. result of public investment in education and Hill, R. M. Cook, P. F. S. as a direct result of this government’s reduc- McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. tion of six per cent in the operating budgets O’Chee, W. G. Quirke, J. A. * denotes teller provided to the universities of this country. This has resulted in a reduction in the facili- (Senator Eggleston did not vote, to ties that are made available. Hundreds of jobs compensate for the vacancy caused by the have been lost as a result of budget cuts at the resignation of Senator Bob Collins.) Australian National University. In the depart- ments of art history, modern European lan- Question so resolved in the affirmative. guages, history and political science, there has been a reduction in courses available. There Bill read a second time. has been an increase in industrial action as 3282 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 the university has had to try to make up for the ANU’s annual report, which sets out the the reduction in public funding made avail- activities of the Australian National Universi- able by government. ty for 1997. At the beginning of the report the Protests by students and teaching staff have mission statement is set out, which states: highlighted the failure of this government to The mission of the Australian National University provide adequate resources to the university is to be one of the world’s great research institu- sector. Professor Dean Terrell, Vice-Chancel- tions, distinguished by outstanding teaching, lor of the Australian National University, said guiding students to the frontiers of knowledge and in a memorandum, ‘I consider it to be essen- the best standards of scholarship. tial that the general public is made aware of These may seem lofty ambitions indeed, and the financial difficulties and associated budg- it is extremely saddening to see how such etary challenges facing higher education.’ All aims have been frustrated by the drastic of this is revealed in the annual report of the underfunding of higher education by this ANU and I think the university authorities government. The previous speaker has re- should be thankful that it is being drawn to ferred to some of the drastic funding cuts we the public’s attention. What were once regard- have seen over the last two budgets. ed as some of the best university programs in the country are under attack as a direct result The impact of such underfunding is made of the reduction in funding to the university abundantly clear in the report. The ‘review of itself. 1997’ states: Senator Robert Ray—One of the board Financial constraints caused by reductions in members just walked out. Commonwealth funding to the higher education system made 1997 a difficult year for The Austral- Senator CARR—That is the point. Mem- ian National University. bers of this Senate are represented on the board—and I thank Senator Ray for drawing The year 1997 was the year in which the that to my attention—and we do not hear one Australian National University began to feel comment from this government’s representa- the effects of the six per cent reduction in tive on the board of the ANU to indicate to government funding, resulting in a reduction this Senate what his concerns are in regard to of $12 million to $15 million per year. Com- the university. I note on page 17 of the report bined with an unsupplemented staff increase that hundreds fewer staff are being provided of nine per cent—this is the first time that the to the university as a result of those cutbacks. government has not supplemented such an What have we heard from this government? increase—the university has been under Not a word. It is an appalling situation which tremendous pressure to maintain its high I think the Senate ought to be very concerned standards under these severe financial con- about. I hope that as a result of the discussion straints. of this annual report, there is broader under- Thus far, administrative areas have been the standing in the community about the impact hardest hit. This has seen administrative staff, on one particular university of cutbacks to already under strain trying to cope with the universities across the country. changes to HECS introduced in 1997, placed This is a model that we have seen in a under even greater pressure. The university number of places, particularly at regional anticipates that its future will see course universities in the smaller regions of provin- offerings and research equally adversely cial Australia. The assault that has been affected. experienced by the Australian National Uni- To date—and I notice Senator Carr referred versity and others is a disgrace and it is to staffing cuts—the university has lost 61 something that this government, in the long staff from its faculties: 31 academic staff and term, will be condemned for. 30 general staff. The Institute of Advanced Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Studies, a world-class body, has lost 15 tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian academic staff and 100 general staff, resulting Democrats) (6.56 p.m.)—I also rise to discuss in courses like archaeology and natural Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3283 history being discontinued at a particular country find themselves in as a result of this level. government’s brutal slashing of the higher Earlier this year, the arts faculty discontin- education budget. Like many other institu- ued Russian studies, and many of us in tions, the ANU is struggling to fulfil its high Canberra would have seen the student protests aims despite the ever tightening constraints on the news. Last week, further staff redun- imposed by a government which fails to dancies were announced. Target loads for the appreciate the many benefits which flow from university have fallen from 7,110 in 1996 to the provision of readily accessible, publicly 6,180 in 1998. The undergraduate load has funded and high quality education. gone from 6,080 to 5,965 in the same period. Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) This has caused a reduction of about (7.01 p.m.)—I rise to speak on the same $950,000 to faculties, so they are actually report, the annual report of the Australian losing money as a consequence. National University. I am a member of the The reduction in the target load is such that council of the Australian National University. the university anticipates funding fewer Each month I have the opportunity to sit and postgraduate positions. The university council hear the deliberations of this truly great has therefore resolved that unless the situation Australian university. changes and adequate funding is restored, it It was interesting to listen to the previous will charge fees for all postgraduate students comments, particularly in light of the general from the year 2000 onwards. So we are going response to the initial budget savings under to see further up-front and full fees charged this government. If I recall, it took up about as a consequence of this government’s ac- three minutes of the time of the council at tions. that time. But I think what Senator Stott The arts and science faculties are under Despoja and Senator Carr forget is the way in particular strain, and they are projected to run which the previous Labor government tried to deficits this year. The library, of course, is bring down the Australian National University one of the first places to suffer from funding in many ways. The reason was that it is a cuts and indeed it is at the ANU. There was very different type of university. Senators will a 13 per cent rise in the cost of serials last remember that, when Mr Dawkins was the year, and a loss of about $600,000 in purchas- minister, he brought in what he called the ing power due to the decline in the value of ‘unified national system’. It was his eastern the dollar relative to the US dollar and the Europe-Communism type approach: his one pound has seen many of the serials cancelled. type of model and ‘let’s have it all pretty The library has also had to reduce its staff much the same’ type approach. levels from 157 to 138, and it has shortened The ANU stuck out like a sore thumb in all opening hours as well. This has been especial- that because it is not your typical Australian ly problematic for mature age students and university. It has something called the Insti- part-time students who face difficulty in tute of Advanced Studies, which is a major accessing the library after hours and on research section in this university. It has a weekends. Students without access to infor- world-class research centre. The John Curtin mation technology have also been affected as School of Medical Research, which is part of they no longer have sufficient access to the Institute of Advanced Studies, boasts two library computers. However, despite consider- Nobel prize-winners in just one school of the able pressure from government on universities Institute of Advanced Studies. This is a to compensate for the funding shortfall by world-class research institution; a world-class introducing up-front fees, I am proud to say university. the Australian National University has thus far Let us look at what the previous Labor resisted such pressure. The Democrats com- government tried to do to it. I was a deputy mend them for that decision. chair of the Senate Employment, Education This report highlights the situation many and Training Committee that inquired into higher education institutions around the what Labor tried to do to the John Curtin 3284 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

School of Medical Research. This was the cry from the Whitlam era when universities first chink in taking the Institute of Advance were to be totally free. Studies apart and trying to make the ANU I was in the system at that time. What like any other university. The then govern- actually happened in the universities during ment actually moved the funding for the John the Whitlam era, as there were no fees, was Curtin School of Medical Research—this first- a scaling back of resources and staffing, a class research school—out of the ANU and lengthening of the hours staff worked and a put it under the Department of Health; it was run-down in general facilities. Why? Because not even under the Department of Education. there was not enough money there. The Labor Our report severely criticised what the Labor government was finally run over by reality. It government did and was the mainspring for brought in fees, encouraged universities to the action that eventually led to the restora- raise money in other ways and introduced tion of the John Curtin School of Medical foreign full fee paying students—all of which Research within the Institute of Advanced we applaud. That is what they should have Studies. So the Senate had a major role in done, and that is what we are continuing. keeping the integrity of the Institute of Ad- (Time expired) vanced Study in place. Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital The other little thing the previous Labor Territory) (7.06 p.m.)—I rise to put forward government tried on the ANU was to combine some comments in relation to the annual it with the University of Canberra, claiming report of the Australian National University. that in this area there perhaps should be only Listening to Senator Tierney advocate his one university. That would have been a major view in relation to university funding it is mistake. I think history has shown that both quite interesting to note that, nowhere in the universities have very different missions and rhetoric that we have just heard from Senator fulfil very important roles in the Canberra and Tierney, do we find any commitment to southern New South Wales region. So we equity of access to higher education in this have the ANU at this point in time. country. In fact, what we are hearing from Senator Tierney is exactly the opposite: that It is claimed in the responses to this report universities should remain open only to the that the ANU has been greatly affected by elite or those who can afford to fund their budget cuts. The cuts have had some minor access. That is the message contained within effects—Russian has disappeared, for exam- the Liberals’ contribution to this particular ple—but from where I sit on the council I debate. We have seen through the massive cannot see these effects as being major. I am cuts to the higher education sector the mani- sure they are not as severe as were the cuts in festation of that philosophical view. the Dawkins years when university enrolments in this country expanded by 40 per cent. The I would like to turn my comments to the commensurate finance did not expand any- ANU and its role in our local region. As thing like that, and therefore the universities senators would know, the Canberra communi- were left struggling. ty has suffered many times over from cuts by this government. They are cuts that have It is interesting that Senator Stott Despoja— affected our community in the harshest way, who, like many of the Democrats, is in in the form of jobs and job losses. We have fantasy land—talked about ‘fully funded just heard from Senator Stott Despoja the public higher education of high quality’. It is degree to which people have lost their jobs at almost a contradiction in terms because the the ANU as a result of these cuts. Add to this reality is that, in the current budget situation, the cumulative effect of public sector cuts and the government cannot do that. There just is the flow-on to the private sector and we have not enough public money to fund universities a severely damaged regional economy. Educa- to the extent that is needed. Even the Labor tion in the ACT and region represents over 30 government recognised that. Who brought in per cent of our economy. We are very proud fees? It was the Labor government—a long of our education base and it is one of our Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3285 great strengths in this region. The ANU is students in that place. Students now are facing very much a centrepiece of our education increased fees. They are facing fewer oppor- infrastructure. tunities as a result of this government. Start The ANU also plays a critical role in linking cross-portfolio areas about youth technological developments in areas such as affairs and higher education. If you address AARNet and the introduction of new informa- the issue in the context of young people’s tion services to students, and indeed to the morale, you start to see a very desolate whole network of universities around this picture being presented by this government. country. At no point has this innovation and It has no compassion. It is not committed to commitment to these areas been recognised by the youth of Australia. What it is doing in this government in a way that will sustain and higher education is a graphic example of that enhance the role that universities have played neglect. (Time expired) in improving access to new information Question resolved in the affirmative. technologies. The relationship between the ANU and an absolute myriad of cooperative Antarctic Science Advisory Committee research centres, associated particularly with Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- the information technology area but also a land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister wide range of other areas, positions the ANU for the Environment) (7.12 p.m.)—I move: soundly in the structure and affords it the That the Senate take note of the documents. status of being an education leader both in our region and in Australia. In speaking to the report Australia’s Antarctic Program Beyond 2000—a Framework for the Since I was elected to this place just over Future, I also want to refer to the two years ago I have attended many demon- government’s response to that report which I strations and rallies organised by both staff had the pleasure to present to the Senate on and students at the ANU demonstrating behalf of the government. When the coalition against the actions of this government. The government was elected, my predecessor, cuts are not just to university funding, affect- Senator Ian Campbell, instructed the ing academic and non-academic staff. We are government’s Antarctic science body, the still feeling the effects on almost a day to day Antarctic Science Advisory Committee, to basis as the university announces cut after cut look at Australia’s Antarctic program beyond forced by those funding arrangements. But the year 2000. They presented the report that students are also affected by cuts to Austudy is before the Senate today entitled A Frame- and changes in arrangements. My electorate work for the Future. It is a significant report office was absolutely deluged as a result of and one which I congratulate the Antarctic the monumental stuff-up in relation to Science Advisory Committee on preparing Austudy early last year. and presenting. It is a document that I recom- If these attacks on support for students and mend that all senators who have an interest in funding levels for universities continue, the Antarctic matters should read. upshot will be less opportunity for young The government’s response has been pre- Australians. The upshot, of course, will be a sented after a long consultation with people diminution of the status of our higher educa- involved and interested in Australia’s Antarc- tion institutions in this country. That will tic program. Last Monday at the headquarters result in a decline in general investment in of Australia’s Antarctic Division in Kingston, areas like research and development and Hobart, I released the government’s response commercialisation. That, in turn, will under- to the staff of the division. The government’s mine our economic growth prospects. There response maximises opportunities for under- is no denying that these cumulative effects of taking Antarctic scientific research and it will cuts on universities will affect these longer- enhance Australia’s leading role in the An- term issues. tarctic whilst minimising infrastructure and The last point I would like to make is: think logistic support costs. The government has of what you are doing to the morale of the accepted ASAC’s advice that a strong and 3286 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 efficient Australian Antarctic program needs at least. We have ruled out the option of more flexible logistics and infrastructure to be making the stations available for tourist use able to respond more readily to changes in and we have confirmed our view that tourism future needs and priorities. in the Antarctic should continue to be ship I have instructed the Australian Antarctic based. Our government is committed to Division to immediately commence an exam- maintaining Australia’s leading role in efforts ination of options for a transport system that to protect the Antarctic environment and is more flexible and efficient than the present ensuring that Australian activities in the one ship system. The examination will include region continue to meet the highest environ- a multi-ship operation that would allow one mental standards. Finally, the government has vessel primarily to be devoted to the conduct reaffirmed its commitment to Hobart being of important marine scientific research. I have the focus of the Antarctic program. (Time also instructed the division to prepare a expired) scoping study for intercontinental air transport Question resolved in the affirmative. options for Antarctica. As part of these studies, the division will look closely at the ADJOURNMENT environment and the cost considerations and The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT at potential opportunities for cooperative cost- (Senator Hogg)—Consideration of govern- sharing transportation and supply arrange- ment documents having concluded, I propose ments with Australia’s Antarctic neighbours. the question: Whilst accepting ASAC’s advice on the That the Senate do now adjourn. importance of a cost-effective intercontinental air transport capability for ‘an innovative and Ecumenical Prayer responsive future Antarctic program’, the Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (7.18 government is determined to ensure that this p.m.)—I want to acknowledge a very import- capability is provided in a manner that meets ant event which will take place in Tasmania the highest environmental standards and does tomorrow. For some time now, there has been not cause serious adverse impact. No deci- ecumenical prayer for mothers and unborn sions have yet been taken on how this desired babies in Tasmania. Tomorrow, 28 May, a capability would be provided. These decisions new milestone will be reached in ecumenical will be taken in the light of the scoping study prayer. At 10 a.m. at Saint Therese’s Catholic and other developments, including develop- Church, Moonah, there will be the 300th ments in establishing cooperative international week of the prayer. For the past six years transport arrangements. there has been weekly prayer for mothers and An intercontinental air transport capability unborn babies in Moonah’s Anglican, Baptist, will not only increase the program’s scientific Catholic, Salvation Army and Uniting Church output but also provide potential for Australia churches. to more effectively conduct surveillance This could be the longest continuing ecu- operations in the Southern Ocean, thus pro- menical prayer in Tasmania’s history. The viding greater environmental protection. prayer lasts for about 20 minutes. People of While the government accepts the broad all ages and all Christian faiths attend. Occa- thrust of ASAC’s report as an appropriate sionally, there have been interstate visitors. basis for a focused and effective program, we Five Metro buses carry large paid ads for the also carefully considered a range of public prayer. The prayer has a very positive focus: comments received and, as a result of those that God will keep all Tasmanian mothers and comments, the government has decided not to their unborn babies safe and well. accept two aspects of the ASAC report. This prayer has had great results. The I am pleased to say, in our response, that advantages are of course that the prayer is the government has decided that all four ecumenical, that it is persevering, that it permanent Australian Antarctic research brings continuing help to mothers and unborn stations will be retained for the medium term babies, that it is very gentle and non-confron- Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3287 tational, that it is pro-life in the very best for themselves in about nine years. Although sense, and that it shows that more things are these wind generators are the latest state-of- wrought by prayer than this world dreams of. the-art technology, previous use overseas has been fairly rudimentary. Queensland: Environment I make no comment about the visual pollu- Torres Strait: Drugs Trafficking tion on Thursday Island. Overseas there is Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- also a noise pollution element, although I am land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister told by locals on Thursday Island that noise for the Environment) (7.20 p.m.)—Tonight I is not a problem with these two wind genera- wanted to congratulate the Queensland tors. The two generators at Thursday Island government on its environmental record, progress the technology quite enormously, and which is not often recognised. People who the cost efficiency of wind generators as a have an interest in the environment are always power source can only improve by this initia- very quick to criticise and very slow to tive taken by the Queensland government and recognise good works and to congratulate other initiatives in the like area. I congratulate those involved. The instance I want to talk the Queensland government. They have done about is one that I only became aware of this very significant work in the environment- when I recently visited the Torres Strait area, al area and they join with the current and Thursday Island in particular. Since my Commonwealth government as well in en- previous visit to Thursday Island a couple of couraging research into the use of natural years ago, two huge windmills have been con- resources like the sun, wind and waves for structed above the Thursday Island township. energy. So a big tick to the Queensland I was rather surprised that I had not heard government for their work in the environment of it. I was also surprised that the so-called area. As I say, it is an initiative that, surpris- people with an interest in the environment ingly, has not got the sort of publicity and the here—they are pretty limited in this Senate, sort of exposure that I would have expected but the two Greens senators do claim that and for it, and I am very pleased to be able to say the Democrats sometimes suggest they are to the Queensland government, ‘Good on you interested in the environment—had not men- for this tremendous environmental work.’ tioned it. The Labor Party, regrettably, these While I was in the Torres Strait recently— days seems to have no interest in the environ- and I was there in conjunction with the local ment whatsoever. But no-one has ever men- member for the area, Mr Warren Entsch, the tioned these here, and none of that limited Liberal member for Leichhardt— few with an interest in the environment has Senator Schacht—Still looking for the man congratulated the Queensland government on with the red hat? the establishment of these wind generators. Senator IAN MACDONALD—In fact, that The Queensland Minister for the Environ- is what I am going to talk about, Senator ment, the Hon. Brian Littleproud, deserves Schacht, but I just want to say first of all that congratulations on this great environmental Mr Entsch, the local Liberal member for initiative. His colleague the Minister for Leichhardt, does a tremendous job in his Mines and Energy, the Hon. Tom Gilmore, electorate generally but he is doing a very who had a significant role in their establish- useful job in the Torres Strait area. He is very ment, and the Far North Queensland Electri- well regarded there. He has done tremendous city Board all deserve congratulations as well work for the Torres Strait Islanders and he for their part. has a succession of ministers up there. Sena- These two huge windmills have been tor Herron is a regular visitor. I was up there established at a cost of $2.5 million, and they on this occasion with Mrs Bronwyn Bishop, supply about 10 per cent of the island’s the Minister for Defence Industry, Science power. In doing this, they save about 359,000 and Personnel. She was inspecting the 51st litres of diesel fuel annually. That is worth regiment and she was very well received. She about $250,000. I am told that they will pay is one of the first ministers to do the trips 3288 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 around the islands and to actually speak with The thing that I did want to pass on to the and inspect the various patrols on each island. Senate and to the Australian public for con- I must say I was very impressed with the sideration was Councillor Waia’s view that quality and standard of the patrols. The local you will never really stamp this out until you people who form the patrols of the regiment do something about New Guinea. His sugges- come from all over the Torres Strait area. tion was that Australia should really target its Many of them travel by boat for quite con- foreign aid to that southern New Guinea area siderable distances to attend their regular to try to lift the living standards of the people patrol exercises. there. At the present time they have no alternative but to engage in this vile trade. Whilst I was up there on this occasion, I The suggestion by Councillor Waia was that again went to Saibai Island, which is the if we directed and targeted our aid into that island in the Torres Strait closest to the New area it would lift the living standards, and Guinea mainland. We spoke there with Coun- their need to be reliant on that trade would be cillor Terry Waia, who is the chairman of the less. He sees that as one of the only really Saibai Island council. Councillor Waia is a effective ways of stopping this particular former navy man himself, I might add, and problem. It is something that he explained in has a good understanding of the real issues. some detail to Mrs Bishop and myself, and to He is a very deep thinker as well. He indicat- Mr Truss the previous time. ed the real problem in the islands with drug trafficking, which Senator Schacht referred to. It is something that we will be taking up I regret to say that when Senator Schacht was with the Hon. Alexander Downer, the foreign the minister he did nothing about that prob- affairs minister, and it then becomes a matter lem, and that is quite scandalous. The obvious of foreign aid and how that all evolves, which trade is there. I drew that to Senator Schacht’s is not quite as simple as Councillor Waia attention many a time, but he was either would suggest. But it is something that really incapable of or not interested in addressing needs to be looked at. It is, as I say, a vile this vile trade. trade and it is one that is very difficult to stop. We really need to look at new ways. I Councillor Waia indicated to us that the real appreciate that Councillor Waia thinks about problem is that marijuana grows very easily this. He knows the damage it does to his in New Guinea; it grows in the jungles. people and to all Torres Strait Islanders, and People in the southern New Guinea area live it is useful that he has made this suggestion. in abject poverty. They look with envy across (Time expired) the two or three kilometres of water at Aus- tralia and the Australian social service and Australian Broadcasting Corporation health system and they really want to be part Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) of it. They have no jobs, little means of (7.30 p.m.)—I speak on the adjournment getting any income and little means of provid- tonight on matters that both directly and ing for themselves and their families. So the indirectly arose out of remarks the Minister easy thing for them to do is to grow the for Communications, the Information Econ- marijuana, which really grows wild, and then omy and the Arts (Senator Alston) made to transport it across the Torres Strait. Then today in the Senate and elsewhere in press it gets into Australia, one of the reasons being releases on issues relating to the ABC. Today, the inefficiency or couldn’t-care-less attitude on several occasions during question time, of the previous government. It comes through, you called me to order because of my robust and it is a vile trade that needs addressing. It interjecting. I accept that, under the standing is difficult to address, but just before I was up orders, that was the correct thing for you to there, the Hon. Warren Truss, the minister for do. But I would point out that, on one occa- customs, was up in the islands looking at that sion, the minister said during his answer to and other issues and taking some initiatives— me—I think off the top of his head—in much more than the previous minister did, I passing to Senator Sandy Macdonald, ‘And might say, in all of the time he was there. while you are doing that you can explain why Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3289 you leaked a copy of that Senate report on board members and ask them, on the record, Telstra to Steve Lewis of the Australian whether that event actually occurred. They Financial Review.’ will say, of course, that the meeting of the I made a personal explanation at the end of board was a private meeting and that the question time, completely refuting the accusa- matters of the board are held in confidence. tion that I had leaked the report to Steve I accept that. But, when a minister knows that Lewis before it had been tabled in parliament. he can make those accusations and use throw- I think it is due to be tabled tomorrow; it was away lines and that he cannot be corrected or due to be tabled today. I also want to make cannot have them verified, he leaves the it clear that not only did I not leak it but person he attacked in a position where they certainly none of my staff leaked it. Only one cannot verify whether it is accurate. I believe member of my staff had access to the docu- that is unethical. ment in helping me prepare the minority I believe that, if you are going to use and report, which will be tabled tomorrow. repeat private conversations which the person I think it is outrageous for a minister to you are using that information to attack has accuse a senator, off the cuff, of a breach of no way of verifying, you will get a reaction. privilege in this place. If he has evidence of That got a reaction from me today. It is not a breach of privilege it should be put before the first time this minister has done this to the Privileges Committee and be dealt with members of the Senate and elsewhere. Unfor- there. Unfortunately this minister does have tunately I suspect it will not be the last but, a loose mouth from time to time and makes when it happens, there will be a reaction in other— this chamber from those of us who are the victims of that tactic. Senator Tierney—Unlike you. I also want to point out that today the Senator SCHACHT—I do not mind robust minister, both in his answer and in the state- debate but, when you start accusing people of ment he issued about his meeting with the breach of privilege, that is a serious matter. I ABC board, has now raised a number of made my personal explanation and I have issues about the future of the ABC and the made it here again tonight. As I said, that was way this government treats it. He put out late provocative and that may be one reason why this afternoon a detailed statement about what I was interjecting more heavily than I normal- he would like the ABC to do to overcome the ly do. I accept your advice of calling me to alleged bias. He has suggested it should look order. at arrangements the BBC has and the Ca- He also made another remark, and again nadian Broadcasting Commission has as this is a tactic of this minister that I have examples that he thinks they should copy. noticed over the last couple of years which Senator Ian Macdonald—Do you agree will force people to interject and react. He with him? said that he was meeting the ABC board this Senator SCHACHT—I do not agree with morning, which we know was correct, and him at all. I believe that these issues have that during the meeting, when he mentioned been raised by this minister at this board my name, there was a dead silence as though meeting just prior to the election to put this was some sort of comment about me pressure on the ABC—to intimidate the ABC made in a derogatory manner. with allegations that they are biased—to the Senator Ian Macdonald—They’d never advantage of the coalition in the coming heard of you. election. Senator SCHACHT—They had never For example, he suggests that one of the heard of me, right. That was a private meeting things the ABC could do is to take on an he had with the board members. The only example from the BBC. He says there is a way I can verify whether what he said was BBC editorial policies unit which employs a correct—because he used it to attack me chief political adviser to provide advice on personally—is to go and contact the ABC programs dealing with political issues. The 3290 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

BBC has probably got a dealing with the In a statement which was quoted in the government, previously even the conservative question today by the minister, I raised the government and now the Labor government, bizarre suggestion by the Premier of Victoria which has left them at arm’s distance. But can that the performance of the ABC regarding its you imagine what this minister would want? editorial content should be referred, and is What he would really be after would be to put going to be referred by the Premier, to a pressure on the ABC to appoint somebody Victorian state parliamentary committee—the who would carry out the wishes of the coali- economic committee, I understand. It will tion in the coming election. inquire and report, according to press reports, by March next year. This is another example He also suggests that these matters are in of the Liberal Party’s obsession with attacking the legislation carried by the previous Tory the ABC. I pointed out that Mr Kennett government in Great Britain and that the should have it explained to him that the charter of the BBC is an example. I asked reason there are problems with the ABC in him today, by interjection, if he was going to Victoria on content and programming is the recommend changing the charter of the ABC $55 million cut that Senator Alston made to to carry out these wishes. That is the thing he the ABC budget. Why doesn’t he raise that should do—put it before the parliament. The with Mr Kennett? He did say in his statement Mansfield report of over 18 months ago made today that he has spoken to Mr Kennett twice recommendations to change the charter. This on this matter. He did not say whether he told minister has not responded to those recom- him to pull his head in or whether he agreed mendations to either say yea or nay or to with this further attack by the Liberal Party ignore it. He does not want to go near the on the ABC. charter; he wants to go through the back door This minister’s performance is incessantly and intimidate the ABC in a sleazy way. about destroying the independence, the morale The statement from the minister, and the and the content of the ABC and its role as a attachment to it raising all of these sugges- broad based, comprehensive, national broad- tions, has only one aim—to intimidate the caster. His performance with the ABC is ABC. Yet this is the minister about whom intimidating and bullying—that is the only only recently, if he is looking at his own method he knows—and the way he goes performance, the Financial Review wrote an about it is a disgrace for the minister with the editorial—the newspaper that is backing this statutory responsibility to represent the ABC government on every aspect of the economic in this parliament. His final comment was, ‘I policies of privatisation, deregulation and tax supported his right to go and raise issues with reform introducing a GST—saying that Alston the ABC. I certainly do as the minister with should be sacked for the way he has handled the statutory responsibility.’ But he should not the introduction of new digital television in abuse them first before he writes the letter. this country. (Time expired) Kundun Today in the Herald Sun there is an article by Terry McCrann—not noted for being a Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) supporter of the Labor Party on any policies (7.40 p.m.)—Tonight I would like to talk we put forward—which, over several col- about the new Martin Scorsese film, Kundun. umns, points out the hypocrisy of this This is a film about the life of His Holiness minister in allowing the digital licences to be the Dalai Lama and the Chinese invasion of given free to the free to air television yet at his birth country, Tibet. It was written and co- the same time makes the comment that the produced by Melissa Mathison, who I under- minister was promoting himself about the stand wrote ET. So on a lot of levels, this is spectrum option sale that took place only a an important film. few days ago. Terry McCrann’s article is The film opened in the United States and extremely critical—and quite derogatory—of Canada on 16 January this year. In Australia, Senator Alston’s performance. the original distributors, Village Roadshow, Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3291 did not want to screen the movie and there United States, have more to do with commer- were fears that we would miss out on viewing cial interests in China than with the telling of this most important film on the life of the an important biographical story. Interestingly, Dalai Lama. Happily though, independent Kundun was nominated for four Academy distributor, New Vision, has taken up that Awards, including best art direction, cinema- challenge. The national release of the film is tography, costume design and original drama next week—the week beginning 1 June. score. The release of Kundun in the United States has been surrounded by controversy. China is So what is the film about? Why would it be reportedly not pleased with the Disney considered to be so contentious by the Chi- Corporation’s support of Kundun and has nese? Kundun is a Tibetan term for the Dalai made it clear that such support could damage Lama, and, literally translated, means the company’s attempt to expand into the ‘presence’. The film chronicles the life of the Chinese market—and that could include film Dalai Lama from his childhood through the and video releases, merchandise and probably Chinese occupation and his journey into exile a Disney theme park in Shanghai. So heated in India. Through the charting of such an has the pressure been that Disney has hired extraordinary life—and it really is quite an former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, to extraordinary life—we see a young, playful advise it on the handling of the issue with the child grow into a figure who raises the Chinese authorities and to ensure that the world’s consciousness about the Buddhist release of the film in northern America was spirit and society, the plight of Tibet and the low key. sufferings of the Tibetan people. The Dalai Lama has stood tall on the world stage, The Chinese government say they believe refusing to sacrifice the Buddhist principle of Kundun is ‘intended to glorify the Dalai non-violence throughout his country’s long Lama’ and is ‘interference in China’s internal resistance to Chinese rule. Those who appear affairs’. This is the standard response of the in the film are not actors. They are Tibetan Chinese authorities when dealing with issues people who know the suffering of their own relating to Tibet and the Dalai Lama. Their people inside Tibet and the human rights attempt to displace international criticism by abuses they have endured. In this very cred- claiming international interference only adds ible film, we are exposed to the religious and to the criticism. If China had remained silent cultural persecution of some of the world’s on the release of this film, I am sure very most peaceful people. little negative attention would have been directed towards them. After all, we all have To help understand the importance of this a right to access these stories, especially one story, I will just give a brief outline of the which details the events of the life of a history of Tibet since the Chinese invasion of spiritual leader as important as the Dalai 1949-50. Mao Zedong’s communist govern- Lama. ment invaded Tibet in 1950. A treaty was Disney has released Kundun in only 439 imposed on the Tibetan government in May cinemas in the United States compared with of that year, although it is considered invalid 2,500 for Seven Years in Tibet and 2,767 for because it was signed under duress. In 1959, Titanic. We are told that this release to 439 a national uprising saw the Dalai Lama take cinemas is typical for an art-house release flight into India where he and the Tibetan film. But Seven Years in Tibet could itself government-in-exile now reside. The interna- hardly be considered mainstream. It had an tional community reacted with shock at the art-house release here in Australia, but it was events in Tibet at the time. The question of released through nearly five times the number Tibet has been discussed on numerous occa- of cinemas. Then, of course, there is the sions by the UN General Assembly, which alternative theory. That suggests that Village has passed three resolutions condemning Roadshow’s decision not to distribute the film China’s violation of human rights in Tibet, here, and Disney’s limited release in the and has called on China to respect those 3292 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 rights, including Tibet’s right to self-determi- have a strong rule of law? Can we imagine nation. what the country would be like if political The destruction of Tibet’s culture and the censorship meant that we were not able to see oppression of its people has been brutal. films produced by such a noted filmmaker as Approximately 1.2 million Tibetans, one-fifth Mr Martin Scorsese, no matter what their of the country’s population, have died as a particular subject matter? As a democratic and result of China’s policies. Many more lan- independent nation, we should not permit guish in prisons and labour camps, and more such outrageous censorship to occur. I am so than 6,000 monasteries, temples and other pleased that in this case it has not occurred. cultural and historic buildings have been The Australian Democrats congratulate New destroyed. Chinese authorities continue to Vision for the courage of their decision to refuse to meet with the Dalai Lama. screen this movie in Australia. I am hoping The dialogue called for by the international that Kundun will be screened here in Parlia- community, including Australian govern- ment House so that all of those who work in ments—successive ones I am proud to say—is this place will have the opportunity to see it. designed to resolve the question of the status I have contacted the presiding officers, Mad- and the rights of Tibet and its people. Con- am President, on this matter, and I understand structive dialogue should not be seen to be that you are considering it. I sincerely hope threatening in any way. Indeed, China would that the screening does go ahead. If it does, receive greater respect from the international I would encourage all senators to attend. I community if they entered into such a dia- most certainly look forward to seeing this logue. In recent years the situation in Tibet film. has deteriorated. One of the principal factors Legal Aid is the large influx of Chinese into Tibet, Senator COONEY (Victoria) (7.47 p.m.)— particularly into its major towns, where they Senator Bourne has spoken about the essential now outnumber the local Tibetan population nature of the rule of law; that society does not by up to three to one. Such intense transmi- go well unless it is underpinned by the rule of gration has a significantly negative impact on law. Parliament makes the law, together with the cultural and the religious life of Tibetans the courts in certain circumstances. The and adds to the political and military control executive carries them out, and the courts of the Chinese authorities inside Tibet itself. interpret them and apply them in specific In many ways the screening of films like cases. It is in that situation that the courts Kundun is one of the few motivations for the make some of the law under which we live. community to discuss issues relating to Tibet As Senator Bourne has pointed out, the three but, more generally, to discuss issues relating arms of government are absolutely essential to the persecution of one group of people by for the wellbeing of society. It is in that another. Looking through the eyes of the context that I want to make some remarks Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people, perhaps about the response of the government to the we can all gain a sense of our own spirituali- report brought down by the Senate Legal and ty, of our own sense of justice and the im- Constitutional References Committee, about portance of recognising the universality of which Senator McKiernan spoke so well this human rights. The common interests between afternoon. Australia and China are such that the release The three arms of government can work of this film will not do any long-term dam- only if they have proper infrastructure to age, or probably short-term damage, to our support them. The magnificent work that the two countries’ relations. parliament does, in the Senate in particular, After all, Australia is a democracy, and we led so well led by its president, is able to be have the right to see movies which present carried out only because of the staff that you points of view which might be contrary to the yourself have often praised, Madam President, government’s point of view. Can we imagine and because of Hansard, the clerks and so on. what this country would be like if we did not You really do need an infrastructure to make Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3293 things work well. Again, with the executive, Nevertheless, the point remains that the it has the Public Service to help it carry out profession, as was acknowledged by the its proper function. Similarly, courts need an attorney, is outstanding in terms of the pro infrastructure. They need cases properly bono or free work they have given to uphold presented. They need people to know what the rule of law. We have community legal they are about. They need people who are workers who do the same. We have legal aid either charged before them or who have a systems which are under extraordinary strain. case before them to be properly represented. With their considerable altruism, they are all It is in that context that we should see the giving of their time and their ability entirely importance of the provision of legal aid. We in the interests of making sure that people get often think in this society that legal aid is an what are their fundamental entitlements in this attachment to social security services rather society. than integral to the system of law under I am a bit concerned that this reply has not which we operate. I think it is that concept addressed those issues. One reason for my that has misled whoever wrote the answer to saying that can be seen from a particular the Senate Legal and Constitutional Refer- recommendation and its response. That rec- ences Committee report. That report is a ommendations reads: considerable contribution to the legal aid The Committee recommends that the Government debate in this country. Unfortunately, the give consideration to establishing a high level person who put in the answer to this report representative task force to advise Governments on the legal aid system and its place in Australia’s has failed to see the essential nature of what justice system. the report is saying. The response following reads: The report is saying that the judiciary, the The Government is satisfied that existing mecha- rule of law, is important. We need to make nisms for provision of research and policy advice sure that the infrastructure that supports the to the Government are sufficient to allow the courts, that underpins the judiciary, is proper Government to foster reform and ensure more cost and efficient. To see that done, proper aid effective service delivery and greater national must be given to those who cannot otherwise equity in the provision of services. properly present their case. Unfortunately, the As I said before, the whole culture of this report has been written without that in mind. answer is an economic culture when it should It has been written in very economic terms, be a culture of justice and human rights. It is and that is a great shame because the provi- essential to take economic factors into ac- sion of legal services to people who need count in any situation where governments them in this community is one of the funda- must make a decision—but they should not mental duties of society to provide. Unfortu- override the priority that should be given to nately, they are not being provided properly human rights in the rule of law. at this moment. In this response, there is no mention of an Madam President, I perhaps should declare exercise which at the moment is being carried an interest in talking about the provision of out by the federal government—and that is an legal services. I have a daughter-in-law, exercise trying to determine just what the Emma Hunt, who is a community lawyer in legal aid needs of Australians are. The North Melbourne; my son Sean, up until government itself is conducting that inquiry, recently, was on the Committee of the Vic- and that inquiry is being undertaken now. torian Immigration Advice and Rights Centre; This response makes no mention of it. another son, Jerome, up until a little while Moreover, if the government is carrying out ago, gave voluntary services in a community this inquiry, how can it be so assured in its legal centre; and my wife, Lillian, as a prac- response that everything is being done as it tising lawyer does give freely from time to should be done? How can this response time of her, may I say, outstanding abilities contain the statement that all seems to be for nothing. I declare those interests in this going well? That is the impression we get by area. reading this document—yet the government 3294 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998 itself is carrying out research at this very Australian National University Act—Australian moment to find out more. One would think National University—Report for 1997. that at the very least what should have been Maritime College Act—Australian Maritime done was that the attorney give a reply but, College—Report for 1997. additionally, he now also should undertake to Tabling give a further reply when he receives this research. The following documents were tabled by the Clerk: The last point I want to make is this: the Export Control Act—Export Control (Orders) provision of legal aid is taken very, very Regulations—Livestock Export (Merino) Orders seriously by other nations. I did want to (Amendment)—Export Control Orders No. 1 of continue with a point about British legal aid 1998. under former Prime Minister Margaret Income Tax Assessment Act 1936—RHQ Com- Thatcher, but I see that I have run out of time pany Determination No. 5 of 1998. so I will stop there. Public Service Act—Foreign Affairs and Trade Senate adjourned at 7.57 p.m. Determinations 1998/4 and 1998/5. Sydney Airport Curfew Act—Dispensation DOCUMENTS granted under section 20—Dispensation No. 3/98. Tabling UNPROCLAIMED LEGISLATION The following government documents were tabled: The following document was tabled pursu- ant to standing order 139(2): Antarctic Science Advisory Committee— Australia’s Antarctic program beyond 2000: A Unproclaimed Legislation—Document providing framework for the future— details of all provisions of Acts which come into effect on proclamation and which have not been Our Antarctic future: The Howard Government proclaimed, including statements of reasons for response, May 1998. their non-proclamation and information relating to Report, October 1997. the timetable for their operation as at 1 May 1998. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3295

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Export Finance Investment Corporation (a) approved a facility for one mining project: an export finance guarantee relating to the expansion (Question No. 1091) and upgrading of the existing Sarcheshmeh copper Senator Brown asked the Minister repre- smelter in Iran. If this project proceeds, EFIC senting the Minister for Industry, Science and expects an exposure of A$32.5m; Tourism, upon notice, on 11 March 1998. (b)approved insurance cover for mineral ship- Can details be provided including the name of ments as detailed in the Table attached. The row the proponent, the title and nature of the project or headed ‘Total Amount Approved’ represents the transaction, the date of application, the date of total value of the export contract or invoice. EFIC’s approval, the value of the project or transaction and liability in the event of a claim would be a propor- the value of the insurance provided of any resource tion of this amount. Often the liability would be project or transaction which the Export Finance 90% of the listed figure, but the liability could be Investment Corporation has approved for support as low as 50%. In addition, exporters may not have since 1 October 1997, with regard to; (a) mining utilised the cover (or all of the cover) offered; projects: (b) mineral shipments; (c) export wood- (c) did not receive information from exporters chip shipments; (d) dams; and (e) renewable energy which permits it to identify whether the export was industries. of woodchip. The information available related to Senator Parer—The Minister for Industry, all exports that the exporter has identified under the Science and Tourism has provided the follow- category of ‘wood and wood products’; ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- (d) did not offer any facilities relating to dams; tion: (e) is not able to identify ‘renewable energy During the period 1 October 1997 to 28 February industries’. 1998 the Export Finance and Insurance Corporation The names of proponents of projects, exporters or (EFIC): buyers are commercial-in-confidence.

Attachment EFIC SUPPORTED ACTIVITIES—RESOURCE BASED (Export Credit Insurance and Confirming Bank)

Product Category Coal and mineral fuels Total Amount Approved $434,076,552 Significant Countries Romania, South Korea, Cayman Islands, Italy, and Ger- many. Approval Dates From 18/11/97 to 27/02/98 Product Category Lead and articles thereof Total Amount Approved $3,139,861 Significant Countries Indonesia, Vietnam, South Korea, China and Pakistan. Approval Dates From 08/10/97 to 17/02/98 Product Category Ores, slag and ash Total Amount Approved $157,588,444 Significant Countries South Korea, Indonesia, Taiwan, Turkey, China, Pakistan, Hong Kong, and Germany. Approval Dates From 25/09/97 to 17/02/98 Product Category Precious and semi-precious stones 3296 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

Total Amount Approved $16,891,790 Significant Countries Denmark, Fiji, Thailand, China, South Korea and Japan. Approval Dates From 16/09/97 to 18/02/98 Product Category Sand, earth and salts Total Amount Approved $13,550,972 Significant Countries South Korea, Indonesia, Taiwan, United States, Brazil, China, United Kingdom, Colombia, India, Hungary, Tur- key. Approval Dates From 29/09/97 to 24/02/98 Product Category Wood and wood products Total Amount Approved $10,964,564 Significant Countries South Korea, China, Hong Kong, United States, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Austria, United Kingdom, and Thai- land Approval Dates From 29/09/97 to 25/02/98 NATIONAL INTEREST

Product Category Mineral sands Total Amount Approved $3,600,000 Countries South Korea only Approval Dates 06/02/98 Product Category Iron, aluminium and nickel ores Total Amount Approved $19,338,000 Countries South Korea only Approval Dates From 13/02/98 to 20/02/98 Product Category Coal Total Amount Approved $64,477,000 Countries South Korea only Approval Dates From 13/02/98 to 26/02/98 Product Category Iron and steel Total Amount Approved $7,158,836 Countries South Korea only Approval Dates 19/02/98 SPECIFIC

Product Category Coal Facility Type Specific Current Face Value $6,410,000 Country South Korea Policy Issue Date 29/01/98 Product Category Coal Facility Type Specific Current Face Value $6,100,000 Country South Korea Policy Issue Date 21/01/98 Note: Mineral shipments are defined as any ‘ore’ or ‘mineral sand’. If the ore underwent any process, it is not included. Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3297

Natural Heritage Trust (3) Local Government can receive funding by applying through the advertised call for projects (Question No. 1112) each year. Senator Brown asked the Minister for the (4) For programs within my Portfolio, the vast Environment, upon notice, on 30 March 1998: majority of payments for the first One Stop Shop funding round had been made by Environment (1) What amount, in real terms and as a percent- Australia to the States or proponents well before age of overall spending, of Natural Heritage Trust the advertised closing date for applications for the funding has been spent on administration, including Natural Heritage Trust in 1998-99. In any case, salaries, sitting fees, consultancies, travel, accom- Environment Australia will take into account the modation and other support, at the; (a) national date at which proponents received funding when re- level; (b) state level; and (c) regional level. viewing the progress of projects, to ensure that (2) What amount, in real terms and as a percent- proponents are not disadvantaged. age of overall spending, has been spent on promo- (5) Local Governments are the lead proponent for tion, including printing, advertising and consultan- projects funded in 1997-98 under the Natural cies. Heritage Trust as follows: (3) What steps are required for local government Rural/Provincial 3.7 per cent of the first round to receive funding. of announced 1997-98 NHT (4) Is it a fact that some applications, including funding from local government, have not received funding Urban 0.7 per cent of the first round of an- until close to, or past, the closing date for next nounced 1997-98 NHT funding. year’s applications; if so, how can they be fairly expected to show that money received for the Ministerial Code of Conduct previous year has been properly spent. (Question No. 1124) (5) What proportion of Natural Heritage Trust Senator Brown asked the Minister repre- spending is allocated to local government in: (a) rural Australia; and (b) urban Australia. senting the Prime Minister, upon notice, on 2 April 1998: Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- In relation to the Government’s ministerial code able senator’s question is as follows: of conduct: (1) (a) At the national level, Environment (1) What is the definition of ‘conflict of interest’. Australia has been allocated $9.761 million for 1996-97 and 1997-98 which represents 4.3 per cent (2) what is the definition of ‘corruption’. of the Trust funds for those years on administration Senator Hill—The Prime Minister has and other support costs. In relation to programs provided the following answer to the honour- administered by the Department of Primary Indus- able senator’s question: tries and Energy, the honourable senator may wish to direct this question to my colleague the Minister Neither the present government nor its predeces- for Primary Industries and Energy. sor has adopted a code of conduct and the narrow interpretations a code can encompass. The Guide (b) $210,000 has been approved for administra- on Key Elements of Ministerial Responsibility and tive and support costs to Tasmania for 1997-98, and the rules on the registration of interests by ministers negotiations are continuing with other States. do not provide definitions of ‘conflict of interest’ (c) No specific administrative assistance has been or ‘corruption’ but require ministers to make provided at the regional level, although some judgements in relation to their own situations. All projects have administrative elements included in ministers are expected to behave honestly and avoid their total budgets. Extracting these costs from all giving the appearance of using public office for projects would represent an unreasonable diversion private purposes. of resources. Department of Employment, Education, (2) Environment Australia has spent $560,541, Training and Youth Affairs: Qualitative which represents 0.25 per cent of Trust expenditure and Quantitative Research on promotion related activities for the Trust as a whole. Education activities undertaken by Trust (Question No. 1144) programs are not included. In relation to programs administered by the Department of Primary Indus- Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister tries and Energy, the honourable senator may also representing the Minister for Employment, wish to direct this question to my colleague, the Education, Training and Youth Affairs, upon Minister for Primary Industries and Energy. notice, on 17 April 1998: 3298 SENATE Wednesday, 27 May 1998

(1) Given that nine departments have now Commonwealth Employment Service answered in full the questions placed on notice on 16 October 1997 (questions on notice 902-916, (Question No. 1148) Senate Notice Paper of 21 October 1997) relating Senator Faulkner asked the Minister to qualitative and quantitative research, on what representing the Minister for Employment, basis was it decided that the department would not Education, Training and Youth Affairs, upon authorise the money, time and effort involved to assemble the information required to provide an notice, on 23 April 1998: answer to the question. With reference to the Commonwealth Employ- ment Service offices closed since March 1996: (2) What qualitative or quantitative research has (1) (a) How many sites were owned by the been undertaken by the department and its agencies Commonwealth; and (b) how many were leased. since 3 March 1996. (2) For each of the leased sites: (a) in which (3) (a) What was the nature of the research State and suburb/town is the site located; (b) what undertaken, (sample sizes, questionnaire length, is the unexpired period of the lease; (c) what is the evaluation); and (b) to whom were the results of lettable space involved; and (d) what is the cost of the research available. the unexpired period of the lease or of buying out the lease. (4) In each instance, which firm or firms have been engaged to undertake this work. (3) For each of the owned sites, if any, what does the Commonwealth intend to do with the site. (5) In each instance what has been the cost of the Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- work undertaken. ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- has provided the following answer to the ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs honourable senator’s question: has provided the following answer to the (1) Twenty-eight Commonwealth Employment honourable senator’s question: Service Offices were closed between March 1996 and 23 April 1998. Of those offices: (a) One site (1) The basis for deciding that the department was owned by the Commonwealth; and (b) 27 sites would not authorise the money, time and effort to were leased by the Commonwealth. fully answer Question 914 was that retrieving the information requested by the Senator, would require (2) The attached list provides details of the considerable resources that would be more appro- location and lettable space for each of the closed priately devoted to other tasks centrally related to offices. The only site which has an unexpired lease administering the government’s programs. period is Nambour. This site has been sublet and the net financial cost to the Commonwealth for the It should be noted that much of the information remainder of the lease (lease expiry date 31 March that is requested by the Senator is already available 2001) is $22,278, which represents less than 5% of in the Department’s annual reports. the outstanding commitment. (2), (3), (4) and (5) For the reason outlined in (3) The Granville office which was owned by the answer to part (1) of the Senator’s question I am Commonwealth has now been sold to private not prepared to ask my department to divert their investors as part of the Government’s program to resources at this time. rationalise Commonwealth owned property.

STATE SUBURB AREA—m2 NSW Baulkham Hills 353 NSW Belmont (NSW) 241 NSW Byron Bay 289 NSW Caringbah 655 NSW Granville 248 NSW Manly 642 NSW North Sydney 777 NSW Randwick 600 Wednesday, 27 May 1998 SENATE 3299

STATE SUBURB AREA—m2 NSW Revesby 444 NSW Wetherill Park 315 NT Borroloola 18 QLD Brisbane 1102 QLD Mareeba 419 QLD Nambour 696 QLD South Brisbane 658 QLD Springwood 647 SA Mile End 485 SA Payneham 441 SA Smithfield 563 TAS Mowbray 400 VIC Belmont 397 VIC Moorabbin 251 VIC Noble Park 391 VIC North Melbourne 841 VIC Nunawading 401 VIC South Melbourne 518 VIC Waverly 295 WA Manjimup 207

Department for Employment, Education, (3) (a) What proportion of advertising placed by the department or portfolio agencies since March Training and Youth Affairs: Advertising 1996 has been placed through the Office of (Question No. 1162) Government Information and Advertising (OGIA); and (b) what mechanism has been used for that Senator Faulkner asked the Minister advertising not placed through OGIA. representing the Minister for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs, upon Senator Ellison—The Minister for Employ- notice, on 23 April 1998: ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs (1) What is the value of advertising placed by: has provided the following answer to the (a) the department; and (b) agencies within the honourable senator’s question: Minister’s portfolio, on a month-by-month basis To answer this question would involve a large since March 1996. amount of resources. I do not consider that such (2) What proportion of advertising placed by the extensive replies are an appropriate use of resources department or portfolio agencies since March 1996 otherwise available for developing and providing has been for: (a) print media; (b) radio; (c) televi- services to the public. I am not prepared to author- sion; or (d) other, and give details of other forms ise the use of these resources to provide the infor- of advertising used. mation you have requested on this occasion.