JOHN CURTIN PRIME MINISTERIAL LIBRARY

Verbatim transcript of an interview with

JOHN COWDELL

Access: Open Research Open Publication Not to be published without permission of the JCPML Not to be published without written permission of John Cowdell (applies

until 7 March 2016)

Accession No. JCPML00977/1 Interviewer: John Ferrell Date of Interview: 21 & 28 February & 7 March 2006 Transcriber: Jo Draffin NOTE TO THE READER

Readers of this oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a verbatim transcript of the spoken word and reflects the informal conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views therein; these are for the reader to judge.

Bold type face indicates a difference between transcript and tape as a result of corrections made to the transcript only, usually at the request of the person interviewed.

[ ] are used for insertions, not in the original tape.

Italics in the text indicate a word or words emphasised by the person interviewed.

[ ... ] are for deletions from the transcript but not from the tapes. VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT

This is an interview with Mr John Cowdell who will be speaking with me, John Ferrell, for the Oral History Collection conducted by the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library. On behalf of the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library, John, I would like to thank you for agreeing to participate in this oral history interview. Do you understand that the JCPML owns copyright in the interview material but disclosure will be subject to any disclosure restrictions you impose in completing the form of consent?

COWDELL I do understand.

JF Thank you. This being so may we have your permission to make a transcript of the recording should the JCPML decide to make one?

COWDELL You have my permission.

JF Thank you very much. We hope you will speak as frankly as possible knowing that neither the tapes nor any transcripts produced from them will be released without your authority. This interview, tape one in the series, is taking place today Tuesday 21 February 2006 at the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library.

[The interviewer is John Ferrell.]

So as a starting point John could you tell me about the nature of your feelings for the former Prime Minister John Curtin and cover what gave rise to these attitudes perhaps?

COWDELL I suppose I came to an appreciation of the role of the former Prime Minister gradually. I was of course a John Curtin boy. That is in the sense I went to John Curtin Senior High School. Now my family background was Liberal but .., ·,···:..------···-···------!

TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 4

[ ... ] I got some idea about John Curtin at high school. remember that Kim Beazley senior was the patron of the school and on one occasion he gave a brilliant address to the school. I came home to my parents and said, "You told me all these Labor people were dummies, I've just heard the most brilliant speech by the school patron who happens to be the Labor Member for Fremantle" and of course he referred to Curtin. Then [ ... ] I went to UWA and by my second year I was doing the Australian History unit under Tom Stannage. I chose as one of the essays an essay on John Curtin. It received a middling mark with the comment, "Is there nothing negative about Curtin that you can raise or that you should raise?" My essay was considered altogether too positive and not to have a sufficient negative assessment so obviously there was some understanding there. I majored in history so I had read at that stage most of the literature on Curtin, [ ... ] including Beazley's address in the early sixties as Curtin Memorial Lecturer. And there were regular Curtin Memorial lectures at UWA in which you received various appreciations of the former Prime Minister. Then [ ... ] being involved as a member of the Labor Party I came into contact [ ... ] with members of the family and gained a greater appreciation [ ... ] of Curtin's historic role.

JF Fine. Well now I believe that you became involved with the John Curtin Foundation and perhaps we should spend a few minutes where you just explain what your role was with that.

COWDELL Yes. When I became Assistant Secretary of Labor Party which was in 1982 of course the immediate focus was on the 1983 election and Labor was successful at both the State and Commonwealth levels. Then [ ... ] we had the years of the Burke Government. Burke with some encouragement from the Party - well the party had discussions with the government and thought that a fund should be set up to put aside for the future some of the business donations which were being received into the leader's fund. And the concept was that we had two operating accounts, one was Perth Trades Hall Incorporated which was our property income stream from management of the Trades Halls and the other TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 5 was the ALP Operating Account. It was determined that we should establish an Endowment Fund which was essentially the Curtin Foundation. This was run as a third set of accounts at the ALP and the officers of the ALP were the officers of the John Curtin Foundation. That being the State Secretary as Chairman and myself as Assistant Secretary as Secretary of the John Curtin Foundation.

JF And the nature and purpose of that Fund or that Foundation, what were they planning to do with it?

COWDELL [ ... ] Everald Compton established the Bjelke Petersen Foundation in Queensland and Everald was employed to run the fundraising appeal. [ ... ] The Foundation was there to have a mixture of political and philanthropic roles. [ ... ] The funds donated would not be touched but the interest would be used for things such as scholarships and awards and also for developing areas of Labor history particularly pertaining to Curtin. That was viewed as an objective. But of course the objective was also political. Many of the donors were making a donation to the Burke Government rather than the ALP but the Curtin Foundation had the appearance of more than just a party election fund.

JF Now how long had you been involved with the administration of the Labor Party in WA because you didn't start life as a political person did you?

COWDELL No, as I've said my family background was Liberal but I became a member of the State Executive of the West Australian ALP in 1976. Then I became a Trustee of the Party in 1981 and Assistant State Secretary in 1982. I held that position till December of 1991. That was one of the two paid officer positions in the WA branch so it was significant in that sense and it was directly elected by the executive. The executive was a body of some 200 members which initially met fortnightly and subsequently monthly.

JF That's a big group to be meeting incidentally - 200 at a time. TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 6

COWDELL It was particularly when it met on a fortnightly basis. But of course I had been a member of it for six years then and that was essentially my constituency in terms of the Party. So then [ ... ] I went into head office and was involved in administration, and as I say part of that role was setting up the John Curtin Foundation, and, therefore liaising closely with members of the family. Of course, Elsie McLeod, John Curtin's daughter had been closely involved with the Party as her mother was prior to her death. John Curtin junior, the son, had put a distance between himself and the Party. To my knowledge he wasn't a member of the Party and never attended any function pertaining to the Party or to the John Curtin Foundation or to anything to do with his father even of a secular nature vis-a-vis university or the high school.

JF Mmm, interesting. But before you were with the Labor Party I think you'd been working as a public servant in the field of education. I wondered whether that brought you into any contact with the West Australian Institute of Technology at all?

COWDELL Not greatly. I had done a History Degree at UWA and then a Diploma of Education in 1975. Subsequent to that I was employed by the Faculty of Education at UWA both as a Tutor and a Research Officer. And so in that area I came into contact with a range of people, notably of course Kim Beazley Senior just after he ceased to be Education Minister in the Whitlam Government and came to do a series of seminars at the Faculty of Education. And [ ... ] Peter Tannock was Professor at the time as was Bert Priest, and I worked with both of them and [ ... ] Ian Birch. [ ... ] Ian was writing a book and I did research on that particular book which was Educational Decision-Making in the Australian Context. So yes, contact and overview with the field generally, and of the debates that were going on in the tertiary education field but no particular contact with WAIT per se. ,._._.------

TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 7

JF And with Watts or not?

COWDELL Yes I came into contact with Don 1 in the later seventies. He was [ ... ] Professor of Chemistry at UWA. We were both tutors at Currie Hall so of course I would have occasional conversations with Don. [ ... ] He was Chemistry tutor at Currie Hall and I was History tutor at Currie Hall.

JF So what I am leading up to really is how you were positioned to become involved with the John Curtin Centre which became part of the new John Curtin University of Technology. When did you become aware of the proposal for WAIT to become a university?

COWDELL I only followed it in terms of the public debate. [ ... ] There were obviously discussions about the whole sector and [ ... ] when I was doing my Dip.Ed., I'd done a research paper and interviewed the former Under-Treasurer Ken Townsing [ ... ]. I'd done a paper on the mechanism of establishing Murdoch University as the State's second university. So from an academic point of view I 2 had been aware of the debates surrounding the under-funding of CAEs and Institutes of Technology and the fact that some saw the solution as a new category of funding in the binary system. Others saw the solution in terms of an upgrade of the [ ... ] college sector [or] some of the college sector to university status. Then of course in the Party there were debates at the time in terms of the Pearce3 initiatives. [They were] certainly debated at various Party forums.

JF So were you or were you not present when Bob Pearce made the first public announcement about the development of Curtin University?

COWDELL I was not.

1 Professor Don W Watts, former Director of WAIT and founding Vice-Chancellor of Curtin University of Technology. 2 CAEs - Colleges of Advanced Education. 3 Bob Pearce, Minister for Education in State Parliament. TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 8

JF Okay, well now do you know then because of the circles you moved in, who originated the idea to rename WAIT in honour of John Curtin?

COWDELL That I don't know. I've obviously read the texts subsequently with the attribution of the proposal to the PR Department, I think, of the old WAIT. And I think very clearly WAIT was looking at every conceivable argument to elevate the institute to [a] university and of course the appeal of the name of the former Labor Prime Minister to a State Labor Government, and more particularly a Federal Labor Government [could help]. I think the State Labor Government was there without the name but it was probably seen as just an added tick from the WAIT point of view in [ ... ] getting the State Labor Government to the mark in terms of legislation. (Although it had indicated its approval in theory.) [ ... ] I am sure Minister Pearce saw the advantage of that that the name may be useful in terms of the argument at the National level with Prime Minister Hawke and some of the senior ministers such as Susan Ryan and perhaps Peter Walsh [ ... ].

I must just say on that[ ] that [ ... ] Don Watts had to approve [ ... ] and run with it and he obviously did. [ ] Don's background [ ... ] was on the Liberal side of politics rather than the Labor side of politics and I remember him saying on one occasion that the Liberals had offered him an endorsement in the State arena and that he said that life was too short to be irrelevant on the State backbench; he had things to do. It may be [ ... ] that only a Republican administration in the US could recognise Communist China and open the door to China. [It] was far easier for them than a Democrat administration. It may well be that it was far easier for Don Watts to propose the Labor name from a Liberal perspective than for it to be attached by a Labor Government. So it might in a funny sort of way be seen as a Liberal initiative that achieved the Labor name.

JF Yes, yes. And Don himself attributes the actual name to one, Peter de Young, but I don't know whether you know that person and his role ... TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 9

COWDELL I don't.

JF ... but that was just a little piece of interest that I thought you might have known about. Okay well then what was the first you heard of the proposal to set up some kind of memorial to John Curtin at Curtin University?

COWDELL It was probably a discussion I had with Don. And you may be aware that there is subsequent correspondence in early '87. Eighty-seven yes because '86 was a rush of surprising developments during the course of that year. There were the debates about the Yanchep Campus and TOKU Corporation, and of course WAIT, under Don had generally aligned with Minister Pearce in his various tilts at the established universities and in other schemes and some of course saw the elevation to university as a pay off for that. I think that's a very narrow interpretation. It was far wider than that. But obviously things went rapidly at the end of '86 from when Cabinet approved the legislation, I think, in early November for it to be passed through Parliament. And to be proclaimed and gazetted by mid• December was incredible particularly given members' desires to get away for their summer break. [ ... ] I remember listening to 6NR I think it then was, the Curtin Radio Station, at midnight at the end of December '86, announcing that in one minute's time WAIT will become a university. But it [the memorial] was obviously the next step and it had been raised, I think in a conversation with Don. It would have come from the Curtin sides, the WAIT side and it was a logical progression having adopted the name [ ... ] to in fact give the university some flavour, some attachment to the new name. [ ... ] John Sharpham subsequently in early '87 wrote to me referring to the conversation saying that, he on behalf of the now Vice-Chancellor Don Watts would like to progress this. I am sure that this was motivated to some degree by the fact that the Curtin Foundation was seen as a likely donor for this project. [ ... ] They [probably] sought access to a set of TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 10

donors there and they probably saw the usefulness [ ... ] of the State Labor Government and Federal Labor Government in terms of monetary

contributions [ ... ]. 4

JF You'd actually spoken to Sharpham before his letter to you I believe - had you perhaps by phone or at a meeting?

COWDELL Yes certainly in conversation I had spoken to both Don and

Sharpham before then. Sharpham's letter was a letter of confirmation saying [ ... ] l ' that this had been mentioned and that could we look at taking it to a further stage.

JF So would you say that Sharpham actually recruited you to be involved with the project or was there someone else?

COWDELL Yes.[ ... ] It was my recollection[ ... ] it was Sharpham.

JF And what did he see as your initial role other than the fact that you were a direct line to the Curtin Foundation funds?

COWDELL I think the fact that I was in charge of, well that I had access not only as Secretary of the John Curtin Foundation to funds, but also could push along from the Party perspective the State Labor Government and to some degree the Federal Government and indeed I did approach both levels of government in that regard.

JF So when you first became involved it was a fairly minimal project. I think Sharpham's letter refers to Curtin Library. Can you briefly outline how and why the concept of the John Curtin Centre evolved over time?

4 I understand from Don Watts that John Sharpham proposed the idea of a Prime Ministerial Library to him and therefore was the instigator of the project in 1986. ~ I

TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 11

COWDELL It was certainly a modest proposal and I will show you - somewhere I've got here the initial publications. The initial publications promoting this scheme were in fact commissioned and paid for by the John Curtin Foundation. It was a modest proposal. It was about a $6.5 million proposal. My recollection [ ... ] was that there were two, always two elements to the proposal; the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery. I suppose my perception was, as a bit of a Party Historian, with the new university being named after John Curtin we wanted to give the university a flavour of 'Curtin the man' and we thought that Curtin [University] may be interested in this but was probably more interested in having a gallery to house its art collection which was bigger than Lawrence Wilson [ ... ]. So I suppose I irreverently on some occasions have referred to it as the mutual con. We had this interest. They were probably a bit interested in [ ... ] a Prime Ministerial Library and flavour of Curtin the man, but were probably more interested in seeing a huge gallery there to house their collection and [provide the] trappings of a university. Now that might be a bit cynical on my part but it certainly started as a $6.5 million campaign.

JF So when Sharpham refers to something which his letter calls the 'Curtin Library', he was actually referring to a proposal to establish a Prime Ministerial Library was he?

COWDELL That's correct. Yes it was always a Prime Ministerial Library. I mean the Party and the Curtin Foundation had no interest in just an ordinary run of the mill library or of enhancing the university library. [ ... ] The understanding was always that it may well be run as a department of the university library but that it would have a distinct flavour and that it would be the repository of the effects and documents and give[ ... ] a flavour of Curtin the man.

JF Had Sharpham himself do you think had some contact with presidential libraries in the US which helped to suggest this idea? TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 12

COWDELL He probably had, because there was then an obvious focus on the success of the American presidential libraries. And, of course that built the momentum in terms of people seeing a wider audience. The initial audience was the Curtin Foundation donors [ ... ] and perhaps the Labor, State and Federal Governments. I think it was then perceived that there was scope for [an] international appeal in that we were following the American model of presidential libraries and this was a library established for a war time prime minister who had established the US Alliance. [ ... ] There was a wider appeal, a possible appeal there to American money. So as the vision or the dollar signs lit up so people expanded [the appeal]. I have always said that someone changed the decimal point and that it went from something like a $6.5 million appeal to a $65 million appeal. Which, of course, was the cause of a little consternation from the Labor side in that[ ... ] expectations were raised so considerably. [ ... ] I got Kim Beazley5 involved as Chairman of the Appeal and when they changed the decimal point he said, "Cowdell what have you got me into?" I think in the end we rationalised it by saying, "All right you've changed the decimal point on us, but we will consider this a three-part appeal. We will consider the first part [of the] appeal say up to $17 million as the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery so you can push us up to there. Part Two is your International Institute and Part Three is your $20 million Great Hall - we ain't signing up for these. You can push us from 6.5 to 17 but we feel under no obligation to sign up for 65 million."

JF How was that received?

COWDELL Oh well of course on one occasion I was taken into a small dark room and told that I lacked vision. [ ... ] I didn't take offence at [that], in fact I was more amused than offended, and indicated, I think, it was to Sir James and others that we had expanded our horizons to three times the original appeal. And good on them if they could get the rest of the money from the United States and

5 Kim Christian Beazley, son of Kim Edward Beazley. TAPE ONE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 13

other sectors but we had other things to do being in politics with Federal elections every three years and State elections every three or fourth years we weren't about to redirect ourselves to spend all our time working for Curtin Uni. and that if they thought that they had another thing coming.

JF So you were 'counselled' to use a term, by Sir James Cruthers?

COWDELL Indeed, indeed. This was one of our trips to the East when of course there were various State appeals set up. And of course Beazley had been instrumental in Geoff Dix accepting Chairmanship of the Victorian Appeal and so on. And we put [ ... ] together things there to assist them. But we weren't in a situation to spend all our time on that project. We had made a commitment to a very limited project. We were willing to expand it to three times the size but being in the permanent employment or full time employees in the interest of Curtin University was not something we'd signed up for.

JF Understandable.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE A I•)

TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 14

This is Tape One Side B of a series of interviews with John Cowdell.

COWDELL [I] make the point that, and I don't know what others have said but I was always under the apprehension that [ ... ] the first stage was the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery and that the subsequent stages that were added on were of course the International Institute and then the Great Hall. [ ... ] We had always viewed that there were two components of the first stage.

JF Well now to what extent do you think were staff at Curtin University apprised of or involved with the move to establish this commemorative institution and especially I am thinking of such key players as John de Laeter and Mark Liveris and others of the founding academics?

COWDELL Well I think that the staff were relatively well informed because I came across some of those senior staff from very early on. Obviously the question might have arisen with respect to the rest of the staff. And I was aware of the problems. [ ... ] There appeared to be some staff opposition there was the perception that this was a side track to the essential core purpose as they say now of the university. And there was certainly an element of critique I think of diversion of funds. That, I don't think was founded. That was an argument that some of the core administrators from the Vice-Chancellor on had to deal with. But on the other hand, [ ... ] I had [ ... ] conversations with some of the ordinary lecturing and tutoring staff, I pointed out very clearly to them that the money wasn't available to Curtin per se. If they got the money for this it was for a special purpose. If they didn't want it, we'd go home, we weren't interested in giving that money to the uni per se. So in fact if they won the argument in terms of their staff opposition then we'd pack up and go home. We weren't interested in just carting money to another set of academics [ ... ].They either accepted it and got a component to enhance the university or they thought it was a distraction and we had no interest in raising funds for them in that case. TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 15

JF And talking of university players, when was it then that John

Maloney came into your consciousness?

COWDELL Oh well obviously when John Maloney took over as Vice• Chancellor he embraced this particular appeal. Made it very central, put a lot of time in so we saw John quite often in the planning process, the appeals meetings and so on. [ ... ] He put the full weight of the Vice-Chancellery behind it and really ensured the implementation. Certainly in terms of hiring Jan Yerkovich and Fundraising Management and adopting an altogether professional approach he took it to the [next] stage - which you needed to - if you were going to [ ... ] try and ramp it from a 6.5 million to a 65 million. It had to take a considerable amount of your time and attention and it had to have professionalism. I think he recognised that and he certainly was committed to ramping it in that way. [ ... ] 1 mean from our perspective of course I was a full time employee of the Labor Party until the end of '91 then I went on to Kim Beazley's staff as an advisor. He was Minister for Finance and then Minister for Employment, Education and Training. [We had other things to do.] Many of the fundraising meetings were held in Beazley's office in Vic. Park so it was just a quick trip down the way. Some were held here [at the uni] [ ... ]. In fact I acted for the first [ ... ] couple of years, virtually as secretary and making sure of the publications and so on but it became a full time job and the wherewithal had to be provided by the university.

JF Yes. I noticed there's a letter on the files from Peter Reeves to you in January I think it was of 1989 talking about setting up a meeting with the Vice• Chancellor. At that stage presumably you had not met John Maloney?

COWDELL I think it'd probably ... when did he become Vice-Chancellor?

I think it was beginning of '88, February '88, but I am not quite sure JF about that. TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 16

COWDELL I expect that I had met him before that. [ ... ] [The] concept [was] very enthusiastically advanced by Sharpham on behalf of Watts and then Sharpham was the Acting Vice-Chancellor6 I think. We had in that interregnum, you know, spoken to Peter Reeves [ ... ], I think Peter was a Pro Vice-Chancellor, and had various discussions but it was Maloney that put together the nitty gritty. Obviously we started thinking about who would donate what and put a committee together, and as I say I recommended Jan Yerkovich. I'd found her fundraising management particularly good. [ ... ] As fundraiser for the ALP I was a member of the Australian Institute of Fundraisers and heard a number of Jan's lectures and so on. She ran the foremost fundraising company in Western Australia so I certainly recommended that [ ... ]. Here was an enthusiastic committee. We needed to expand it and it did expand beyond that and it was ramped with the three knights and various other people.

JF For the tape you had better explain who the three knights are.

COWDELL Oh the three knights being of course Sir James Cruthers, [Sir Lawrence] Brodie-Hall and Sir Charles Court. So they came on board and participated in the appeal. But given Sir Charles' connections with WAIT as well as his support in getting the Liberal Opposition to pass the university bill through parliament he'd always been closely connected with the interest. And [ ... ] give him his due, he came on board with respect to the appeal as well[ ... ].

JF So you have put your hand up to having recruited Kim Beazley junior as the Chairperson of the Appeal Committee?

COWDELL Yes, yes. I had been involved in the concept for a number of years and [ ... ] ... had known Kim reasonably well for many years and indeed I accepted his offer to go on his staff when I ceased to be Assistant State Secretary. It seemed logical given his role [over] the previous five years and [ ... ] as Minister

6 John Sharpham was Deputy Vice-Chancellor Academic Affairs. TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 17 for Defence [his] interest in Curtin who also held the Defence Portfolio and [in] WA History. And of course Beazley had been involved in moving half the fleet to the West Coast to HMAS Stirling and there was an interest there. [ ... ] Not only did he have a lot of contacts in terms of industry and along the East Coast but also in terms of being a close personal friend of the Prime Minister [Bob Hawke]. We needed these good offices and Federal money to give this a tick and a substantial boost. Beazley was obviously instrumental in that with John Dawkins as Treasurer[ ... ]. It probably became a bit more dependent on Dawkins who was closer to the new Prime Minister Keating, after '91, than Beazley [who] had been closer to Hawke and remained a Hawke loyalist till the end. He was not close to Keating who of course had in the past made some acerbic comments about Curtin to which Elsie McLeod had taken [ ... ] umbrage. So it was the balance had shifted there. But yes I certainly persuaded Kim to take a role in drawing in some of his contacts and providing some leverage with the business community. Obviously it was just one factor there and the university was involved in getting some of its traditional industry benefactors on board as well. Although one might comment perhaps not too many when you look at the appeal results.

JF Yes. Now many of the planning meetings then for the John Curtin Centre were as you've said held at the electorate office of Kim Beazley junior and only occasionally here. Did anybody make any remark about the fact that that was done, that that was the centre where these deliberations took place?

COWDELL Not really I think. It was probably indicative that here was a significant contribution being made by the Labor Party and a senior Federal minister and that initially that was the power house. Obviously the focus shifted when the appeal became more broadly based but it's probably indicative of the fact that the primary impetus of the early appeal days was in terms of Labor Party support [ ... ]. I think you will find that subsequent to that the focus shifted, and indeed the committee shifted, and there were different committees to deal with different areas. But that was the core first committee and it then expanded, TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 18

changed in complexion and of course there were committees to deal with all sorts of different aspects. Committees to deal with the American aspect of the appeal with Ray Johnson, Committees for [ ... ] New South Wales and Queensland, one for Victoria and so on. Then a far broader West Australian committee which involved you know Brodie-Hall and Sir Charles Court and so on.

JF Yes. Now can we talk about the principal tasks that you undertook in that early stage of promoting the idea of a centre particularly your negotiations with Senior ALP figures like Hawke and so on?

COWDELL Yes well of course I brought it to the attention of the government at the State and Federal level and then once the appeal had been put together there was a need for some material assistance. I remember on one occasion running up to the 1989 ALP State Conference. We got John Maloney and set up a display because Hawke was to fly over [to the conference] and give the address. So[ ... ] we had a room set up and Beazley ushered Hawke into it and of course Peter Dowding was there as the Premier. At this stage they were looking for seed money [ ... ]. The initial display[ ... ] looked [more] like a mausoleum than anything else mainly in the ground with something popping up over the hillside, [ ... ]. But at any rate the display was presented and [ ... ] they carried the bust of Curtin in [ ... ] and had various [ ... ] plans laid out, and a commitment was made subsequent to that. Now I can't remember the exact amount. It was either one million from the Commonwealth and one million from the State or half-a-million from the Commonwealth and half-a-million from the State. The idea was just the seed money to get the campaign rolling. [ ... ] Then other things would flow from that. [ ... ] That seed money I imagine [ ... ] allowed Maloney to take it to the next stage of broadening the appeal, hiring professional fundraisers and having a budget. [ ... ] Then Curtin took over the production - which I must show you - the production of some of the videos [ ... ]. With respect to that, [ ... ] having taken a particular interest in campaigning and messaging, I still maintained (and given that it was our agency and Don Rowe that did most things) a hand [ ... ]. And, in TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 19

fact Maloney referred most of the product to me for my commentary as we went along in terms of subtly adapting the message and making sure the quality was up to standard [ ... ].That was one role I kept when the committee expanded.

JF Yes. You've sort of pre-empted my next question which was talking about the process of developing the promotional brochures and videos. Tell me there were more than one developed over the period of time. More than one video and more than one brochure were there not?

COWDELL Indeed there were. Of course we started off with a very modest brochure which in fact had the logo of the John Curtin Foundation on, and my name and Stephen Smith's name on it. Then it gradually developed [ ... ] to the first round of brochures which were more university centred and then it expanded as they got the American component with the endorsement of the US President and so on [ ... ]. And it was adapted more in terms of the message in [ ... ] honouring the alliance with a particular American angle which they developed over time. And you can see the progression from the very basic brochure and a $6.5 million appeal to the more grandiose as it was ramped up.

JF I take it copies of all these various editions of the brochures and videos are already housed in the archives here?

COWDELL Yes they are, and in fact[ ... ] some years ago, [I] lodged my papers including the minutes, the appeal and so on which had examples of the brochures particularly the early ones that we produced.

JF Yes. Now you could perhaps talk briefly about the involvement of other people who were in that process. I think Don Rowe for example is associated with designing some of the stuff isn't he? TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 20

COWDELL Indeed he was. Rowe was a key advisor of the State Labor Party and he had done some excellent work so I certainly employed him when the Curtin Foundation paid for the initial materials. Then I recommended to the committee that he continue because of the quality of his work and the cost was not exorbitant. They did continue with Don Rowe. Although I think with respect to [that] they did gradually alter the focus and do a range of stuff in-house here at Curtin University[ ... ]. And of course they had to get rights to Movietone News as well to chop bits and pieces out to make the various points.

JF Were you personally rubbing shoulders with any of the Curtin staff that were involved with doing that?

COWDELL Not really, no.

JF I believe Jan Yerkovich and David Waddell were probably also involved with you as sort of a sub-committee on this matter were they not?

COWDELL They were. David was given an executive role here and of course I had an input and Jan had an input in terms of where you pitched and how you pitched as we looked at the adaptation for the particular markets for the North American market and also for the domestic markets. Obviously I took some of the lines for a trial run with my visit to North America in '89. The brochures I took were the initial John Curtin Foundation brochures. I met with various people including Sikorsky Helicopters in Connecticut and General Dynamics in Los Angeles and ended up[ ... ] with a meeting with Casper Weinberger who was the Reagan Administration Secretary for Defence. He was then acting as a lobbyist and had a law office in Washington. He gave me a personal cheque towards the campaign and of course his endorsement. He related stories about how he had seen service in New Guinea during the war and [ ... ] been under Australian officers. He said they always sent him out first because he was so small of stature that his head didn't pop up above the grasses [ ... ]. So it was interesting TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 21 just seeing what support there [was] and road testing some of the lines. Of course I always [ ... ] - half in jest - relate the story of dealing with the Vice• President of Sikorsky Helicopters trying to attract [ ... ] philanthropy to some obscure educational institution in the Antipodes. [I] explained that this was a

Prime Ministerial Library along the lines of the American Presidential Libraries ' "Oh yeah". And that this was named after our war time Prime Minister who'd forged the alliance with the United States. [ ... ] "Oh yeah". And that the Chairman of our appeal was Defence Minister Beazley. "Oh yeah, ah." And that the institution was in representative Beazley's district. "Oh yeah, yeah, we've got it, we think we're interested in philanthropy."

JF That was an interesting track wasn't it?

COWDELL Yes. I think the next line [was] - "Can we talk about Defence offsets?" So yes I road tested a few things and obviously after that the university used Ian Fairnie and the North American office used its contacts there and recruited Ray Johnson [ ... ]. But that was [ ... ] subsequent and I was never really involved other than the first round of road testing some of the lines so to speak.

JF Yes. That was August '89.

COWDELL Yes.

JF So that as you say it was road testing some of the lines rather than being directly there to canvass the funds - or were you canvassing for funds?

COWDELL It was probably a case [of both]. I certainly ended up at our Embassy in Washington DC and the Defence Department [section] there. The first thing was getting in. [ ... ] I must give you a copy of the fax header, "The Chief of the Defence Staff' worked wonders in terms to Sikorsky Helicopters. "As the personal representative of Defence Minister Beazley I would like to call on you to TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 22

acquaint you with this." It did open the doors that I wanted [ ... ]. Obviously I had some preliminary publications. I didn't feel I was in the position of being able to put the ... [ ... ] [full] case and said that there would be a later approach. [ ... ] Because I was visiting the United States [I] had taken the opportunity to provide this preliminary literature and that an approach would be made. [ ... ] They should be aware of this and have discussions with their board. [ ... ]You never go in cold. This was the first approach to acquaint the generality and that a specific amount would be asked for and that there would be a promotional approach [ ... ]. I mean obviously when [ ... ] Casper Weinberger took out his cheque [book] and wrote a [ ... ] cheque and gave it to me I was happy to take that back. But in most of the other cases one realised that boards would decide on a quantum for a variety of reasons and that that wasn't going to happen in just one meeting. So I made a [ ... ] preliminary approach.

JF What was your personal feeling about the feasibility of getting some $40,000 from largely outside WA and specifically a lot of it from USA?

COWDELL You said $40,000 you meant $40 million.

JF That's what I meant, $40 million I am sorry, yes.

COWDELL I always had my doubts about ramping the appeal from $6.5 million to $65 million. I [ ... ] had my doubts about getting anywhere near that amount but probably the identification was correct that they would need to get a significant amount in terms of US funds. Now there were the range of defence contractors and the Beazley connection. There were the range of foundations that the university identified, the philanthropic foundations which might be willing to give a donation. [ ... ] One of the early lines [ ... ] "we swallowed" was [ ... ] the argument that the Americans were less interested in bricks and mortar but more the living institution which had an American involvement. So the idea was that the major US donations should be sought for the international institute when I first went ------=--

TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 23

[to the US]. It [the appeal] was a very modest $6.57 million and that was the early literature. When they ramped it of course it was altogether a different ask in terms of donations they were expecting. So it was just as well I didn't put a monetary figure in my first visit. I suppose the argument back from [ ... ] people like Ray Johnson [ ... ] - and I met Ray when he was out here[ ... ] but not when he or I were in the United States - was that the Americans would contribute to this operational John Curtin Institute but not the bricks and mortar. So round one was up to us. Round two they would raise significant funds for. Now there might have been bits and pieces but I think there was very little, very few funds raised in that area. [ ... ] My perception is the American Appeal was a complete failure. Frankly no-one was interested in stage three which was coming up with $20 million for a Great Hall. The concept around that was they were going to try and package it as a War Memorial Hall and put all the trappings coming up to, you know, the anniversary, the end of World War II [ ... ]. I thought good on them but I'm not aware that even the Americans embraced that concept very well at $20 million for a Great Hall. But that was stage three so you can understand our reticence. That was part of the baggage of the $65 million. [ ... ] [They didn't raise any appreciable funds for stage two, the International Centre, either.] And I've got to say [in light of the failure of stages 2 and 3] the university cut its cloth appropriately and did it well. They combined to my understanding the money that was raised from [stage one of] the appeal to do this wing and they combined it with 17 million from their capital works program to create the new heart of the university. That was indeed very skilfully done, great presentation. Often today it's referred to [ ... ] as the $34 million appeal. Well of course that was fibbing because $17 million was from the capital works budget at the university for the Vice Chancellery. But they did it well. And I must say they adapted that and I think that some of the doubters within the university could then see the obvious [ ... ]. They were getting a new heart to the university that had gone from WAIT with rather shabby second rate buildings and now they had a new heart. [ ... ] TAPE ONE SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 24

JF And just very briefly you were talking about your visit in August '89

aren't you?

COWDELL Yes.

JF To USA. Did you have other visits overseas or was that it?

COWDELL That was essentially it because it was really the list of defence contractors who I had contacted from our Embassy in Washington and then went

and visited.

JF Yes.

COWDELL As I happened to be in the States at any rate. So it wasn't a charge on the appeal either, I was there and yes took it on myself.

JF Good.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE B TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 24

This tape contains an interview with John Alexander Cowdell. It is Tape Two Side A, in the series of interviews for the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library talking about the origins of the John Curtin Centre. We are recording at John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library on 28 February 2006.

To begin with John you mentioned to me after the last interview that you had been involved with a couple of exhibitions relating to John Curtin's life. One in 1985 at the State Library and one in 1991 at the State Museum. I wondered if before we go on you might be prepared to explain what those exhibitions were and your role in setting them up.

COWDELL Yes that probably falls under the heading that we touched on last week of personal views on the former prime minister. Of course as I said I developed some views at university, [ ... ] with respect to Curtin. When I became one of the two full-time officials for the WA Branch of the Labor Party I virtually had the portfolio of Labor History. In that capacity, in 1985, I organised an exhibition at the State Library it being 100 years since Curtin's birth (1885-1985). [ ... ] I developed close associations then with the family, and Elsie McLeod in particular. [She] provided material. [ ... ] I came across the fact that she had sent a collection of books and other memorabilia to the Labor Party nationally because they were naming the national headquarters, John Curtin House [ ... ]. I discovered [ ... ] that [ ... ] these materials were still in the tea chest they had been sent in and were in the basement of John Curtin House in Canberra. So part of the exercise was that I got these back for the '85 exhibition. [ ... ] I maintained contact with the family, and of course we did use some of the materials for the 1991 exhibition which was far larger because it utilised the whole ground floor gallery in the WA Museum in Beaufort Street. 1991 was the centenary of the Labor Party based on foundation in the Eastern States not in Western Australia. WA Labor wasn't founded until 1899. But nevertheless it was an impressive exhibition and we used a significant Curtin component. We did [ ... ] a lot of huge blow-ups [ ... ] of some of the key [ ... ] historic photos. [ ... ] Materials from both TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 25 those exhibitions pertaining to Curtin [ ... ] were donated to form the basis of the collection for the JCPML. I also made sure that the huge blow-ups which had been [made at] some considerable[ ... ] were also sent out here so that they could be used in relevant displays [ ... ].

JF Yes. To what extent was that a Labor Party funded or either of those, Labor Party funded exhibitions, and to what extent were they in the normal course of library and museum ... ?

COWDELL Oh they were wholly Labor Party funded. There wasn't much in the '85 one, the library provided the space, we provided the set up costs. With respect to '91 we provided the set up costs, the blow-ups, the decoration and I think we contributed $20,000 in cash for the trouble as well towards the museum which was always hand to mouth and impoverished.

JF Yes. You - just an aside - you spoke about Labor history and you mentioned the phrase several times last week. When you're referring to Labor history are you spelling it with an 'O R' or an 'O U R'? In other words is it party history you are talking about or more general?

COWDELL Essentially party history, LABOR. Although I must say you can't 7 differentiate in the early period because [ ... ] the Labor Party always saw it itself as the political wing of the industrial movement. But I am using it in the 'OR' sense generally.

JF Yes, thanks. Well perhaps having spoken about those two exhibitions we could perhaps move on now to take up again the question of funding which we talked about last week. I think one place to come in would be to canvass your reaction to the decision that Carmen Lawrence took to reverse Peter Dowding's promise of 500,000 seeding capital and to reduce it

7 Official adoption of 'LABOR' as the approved spelling for the party name dates from 1912. TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 26

considerably. I wondered how a) you felt personally about that since you had been so involved with the idea of getting the project underway, and secondly what you did about it perhaps officially?

COWDELL The situation was that Carmen was no supporter of this project. She was about as unhelpful as anyone could be. She reneged on the pledge of Premier Dowding which was $500,000. The Commonwealth provided their 500,000. In fact I got out the letter - she decreased that to $100,000 and that was payable over a four year period. When it came to a capital contribution, and this was nearing [ ... ] '92 when we'd got to the stage of capital appeal, she was not willing to contribute anything [ ... ]. I at one stage said the Party would [ ... ] out a press release slamming the government for its pathetic attitude and reneging on a promise of the previous premier. However, it did become apparent that the Labor Government would cease to exist at the next election, that Carmen's opposition was immaterial. Sir Charles Court was on the committee. I said to some of my colleagues on the committee, "The key thing is to get a pledge from the Liberal Opposition. To get Sir Charles to make sure that his son Richard makes the pledges. [It's] always easier to get a pledge out of a Leader of the Opposition than it is out of the Premier." I must say that in this regard the change of government, in State government in '93, had an altogether beneficial effect with respect to the JCPML because in fact the new Premier honoured his pledge of 4 million. [ ... ] Carmen had reduced the Dowding pledge of seed money of 500,000 to 100,000 so that change of government was altogether beneficial to JCPML.

JF Is there a background to this unwillingness of Carmen Lawrence to see merit in the project?

COWDELL I really don't know the basis. I could hazard a guess that of course in the environment of WA Inc., and she was the inheritor of many of the outrageous schemes that drained the State Treasury I could understand in a TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 27 political context of heading for an election, that appearing to be giving 4 million to a quasi Labor enterprise might just be seen as the nail in the coffin. With respect to the government's reputation she had been trying to draw a line in the sand [and show] that the government was no longer profligate. I could understand the perception that this would have reflected very badly on the government standing particularly as she was trying to make a differentiation.

JF Seeing you were the person who negotiated with senior figures in the Labor Party at various stages through this program, did you actually personally confront her and talk this out with her?

COWDELL I am quite sure that I expressed our disappointment at the change of policy both directly to her and through her various senior staff members. At the time there was an ongoing battle between party office and the Lawrence Government particularly over tertiary education with the government pledge to provide an endowment for Notre Dame University. The Party regarded this an obscenity and the State Conference of the Labor Party instructed the Lawrence Government to cease and desist from its policy as being contrary to Labor principles and Labor policy. That is there were three State universities that had no endowment from the State other than their site endowment, and here we had a Labor Government saying they were going to provide an endowment for the one private institution while not having met their obligations to the State institution. So you could say that there was an ongoing war between Labor head office and the Labor Government in the tertiary sector. And in a sense relations were not good about a range of things and it must be put in that context. [ ... ]The failure to contribute and the reneging on the promise with respect to JCPML, although understandable in that Carmen was trying to differentiate from [her] predecessors was nevertheless viewed poorly from head office. ' TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 28

JF Do you think that in retrospect and having seen the outcome of the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library that Carmen Lawrence is in favour now of

what was done?

COWDELL I have no idea you would have to ask her.

JF Right. Well going on then it put the project probably into some sort of disarray to have such a reduction in the promised funding. What substitute funding did they find to fill the gap?

COWDELL Well I wouldn't have said that it put the project in disarray. The 500,000 was provided by the Federal Government and the situation was that the university was providing substantial resources as well. Those two sources in fact provided sufficient seed money without the State's 500,000. Well taking into account the State 500,000 was reduced to 100,000. So it was 500,000 Commonwealth, 100,000 from the State and [a] significant contribution from the university and that served as sufficient seed money.

JF Yes. Well would you at this stage now talk for a little while about the intensive phase of the fundraising which was on the verge of starting, I think, when the Carmen Lawrence decision was made. Perhaps you could just outline that fundraising as you saw it and as it affected you?

COWDELL Realising that there had been two sorts of committees after the concept was floated. [ ... ] From '89 to '92 and perhaps a little beyond that there was the Appeal Planning Committee and that was to lay the basis and to find the personnel to be the key chairs in each State to head the campaign. And, of course, the committee liaised and employed a professional fundraiser, Jan Yerkovich [of] Fundraising Management, and she appointed various of her personnel. so all that preliminary work had been done as well as the work of preparing the brochures and the videos and all that sort of thing. So the pitch so TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 29 to speak had been road tested with respect to the American market, with respect to the Australian market of what we wanted to say and the materials had been produced. They had then been changed to take account of the change in the quantum of the appeal from the 6.5 million to the 65 million or thereabouts. Some figures suggest 5 million to 50 million, whatever it was of that quantum. Then the appeal was put in place and the personnel changed. [ ... ] Then I had a more limited role of continuing [ ... ] support [ ... ] with a fund raising management company providing strategic direction and the university providing the wherewithal in terms of secretariat support. It had considerably changed from the days when the John Curtin Foundation with myself as secretary was providing the money to do the initial brochures and so in fact the role scaled down. Although I certainly did participate in discussions with other State committees, the WA State Committee, and also [ ... ] to make sure with Beazley, [of] the key component, which was the Commonwealth pledge. And, of course I did attend the meeting with - it was Prime Minister Keating by that stage - that secured the Commonwealth funding. I must perhaps tell you the story then if I haven't related it already about Don Wilson the Archivist of the United States. [ ... ] We came in as the delegation; Sir James Cruthers, John Maloney, Kim Beazley and so on. I think Jan was there as well and we had the Archivist of the United States. Of course Beazley was not a Keating ally. Keating had expressed reservations about Curtin's reputation and contribution in the past so it wasn't just a case of Beazley having his mate deliver the goods in terms of Hawke. Hawke had ceased to be Prime Minister in December '91. But it was indeed fortunate that we brought Don Wilson with us. He was introduced as the Archivist of the United States. [ ... ] Prime Minister Keating responded. "Oh the Archives in DC, what a wonderful neo-classical building." And the next five or so minutes was a discussion between Don Wilson, the Archivist of the United States, and Prime Minister Keating on the virtues of neo-classical architecture in Washington DC and how Keating had wandered around the US capital soaking up the architecture and so on. We knew we had put our best foot forward and it was TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 30

probably in an unexpected sense but we got off to a very good start and then he gave a good hearing to the case.

JF Great. Yes that's a very telling little point isn't it. If you could only foresee and structure those things to happen you'd try to but. ..

COWDELL Yes, yes.

JF And Don Wilson was here in early '92 was he? Is that when the meeting was taking place?

COWDELL I would have to go back to the records to see when it did take place. He did visit here, and of course the presidential libraries were under the Archivist of the United States, so it was a very good move for the university to bring Don out [so] that he could advise on dimensions individually and [act as a] very effective publicist. It gave the sort of gravitas that it needed.

JF Had he had any prior experience with Australia that might have stood him in good stead?

COWDELL I don't know. I can't now recall what his prior experience of Australia would have been.

JF Yes. Well now the intensive phase really went from, I think December '91 to August '92, the most intensive part. What did you see as some of the frustrations of that time, and perhaps what do you think are the successes of that intensive campaign?

COWDELL There were a few spectacular successes. One was the delivery of Federal money which was 8 million on the dollar per dollar basis. The other big success [ ... ]was not till after the State election in early '93 when the government 31 TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL changed because that was the delivery of the 4 million from the State. So if you look at 8 million from the Commonwealth, so 4 million immediately from the State immediately accesses 4 million from the Commonwealth. [ ... ] I was very impressed at the meetings of the WA crew with people such as Sir Lawrence Brodie-Hall and Sir Charles Court. The University would mention [ ... ] their bankers and that they'd approached them and various people, various businesses who had dealings with the university. And figures were mentioned and Sir Charles would say, "Oh well that's ridiculously low," and off he'd go with Lawrence Brodie-Hall to shake them down in a proper fashion. So I was certainly impressed with Brodie-Hall using his contacts in the mining sector in terms of going [ ... ] with Sir Charles Court to [ ... ] up the contribution and to put the hard word on the donors. [ ... ] Obviously there was a lot of effort that went into the organisation of the structures and trying to get people on board. [ ... ] I don't think that any of the other State appeals lived up to anywhere near the potential that was thought to be there.

Realistically could you have expected that somebody in Victoria JF would see this as or New South Wales or Queensland, would see this as a ' project to get really excited about?

COWDELL No what we were relying on there was essentially the connection of Beazley and Hawke[ ... ]. When it was Geoff Dix as Chairman of Qantas, Beazley had been Minister for Civil Aviation and Minister for Defence and it had been as a personal request from Beazley that he'd come on board so many of these things were more or less personal favours recalled. There probably wasn't the strength and the message in the Eastern States or as it proved in the United States despite conjecture to the contrary.

JF Yes. Do you remember feeling frustration at particular situations or particular stages of that campaign? 32 TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL

COWDELL Well realising that I was not central to that but they now had a National Campaign Committee which I think [ ... ] they made Sir James Cruthers Chairman of. Yes, I have a listing, formal listing of patrons and supporters that they put out when they got to that stage. By this stage Beazley's status had changed from Chairman of the Australian Appeal to merely one of the patrons. Sir James had taken over the Chairmanship of the Appeal and of course they'd appointed various people such as Ron Douglas, Campaign Chair in WA, Bill Dix in Victoria, Dean Wills - that was Coca Cola Amatil - another mate of Beazley's in New South Wales, and Ray Johnson in the United States.

JF Fine. So anyway then going on from the fundraising affair then and particularly in view of the fact that you were on the sidelines somewhat more at that stage. At what stage was there any effect on the project and its progress of a lack of support among Curtin staff? We briefly referred to that before but we didn't talk about the effects so much on the progress of the program.

COWDELL I think its impact on progress was negligible. I was aware as I said last week of some staff opposition. There seemed to be resentment on two grounds, one was the thought that monies allocated to [the] university were being diverted to this [ ... ] non-core function. They would have been correct in that view if monies were being diverted but they weren't, these were additional monies. And as I pointed out they were monies that wouldn't be contributed to this university or its ordinary operation on other occasions. I suppose the second aspect of the resentment was their view - and this the Vice-Chancellor copped - our administration is diverted to this project rather than giving all its attention to core functions of the university, so there was that resentment. That really had nothing to do with me or the campaigning - that was up to John Maloney to address. The other one he also addressed in terms of the fact that funds were not being diverted. And certainly those members of the Campaign Committee or Planning Committee such as myself who came across Curtin staff from time to time certainly disabused them of that view. TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 33

JF Yes. Right well now the fundraising was obviously a team effort. Would you like at this stage then to select perhaps up to 10 of the people that you think were most significant in achieving this outcome of the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery?

COWDELL I think there are two most significant people that tower over everyone else. The first one of these is John Maloney. He took over the concept from Don Watts8 as first Vice-Chancellor and John Sharpham as Acting Vice• Chancellor after Watts went. [He] built up the concept of the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery. Maloney took it on board and agreed to the ramping so he in fact tried to make it a far more impressive project and he had to deal with the whole university constituency in that regard. He had to deal with [ ... ] some of us who indicated that this wasn't the project we'd signed on for but nevertheless could reach an accommodation with respect to phases. And of course then he had to handle the fundraising committee and the egos there. He put a lot of time himself in personally coming to Appeal Planning Committee meetings, then travelling around with and seeing to the various appeal committees. Providing funds to make sure that all the preliminaries were done and the infrastructure was provided with fundraising, professional fundraisers were paid and so on. Maloney carried it through. Then to be accurate when [ ... ] aspects of the appeal faltered he restructured and declared it a total success, even if it wasn't. He essentially made sure that what came out was very credible to the university in terms of combining [ ... ] with the 17 million that had been raised with 17 million of the capital works with respect to the Vice-Chancellery [ ... ] which was seen as phase 4 somewhere down the track. So he came in and made sure that phase 4 was brought forward combined with the funds that it got for phase 1, and you got a $34 million new heart to the university. That required quite a great deal of skill. [ ... ] I've got to say that yes, John inherited the concept, that he ran with it, and he adapted to the circumstances and I think it is a tribute to him that we have the

8 Acting Vice-Chancellor on Watts' departure was, in fact, Professor John de Laeter. 34 TAPE TWO SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL final product. Second person, I would rank there is Kim Beazley. Beazley was Member for Swan, Minister for Defence then Minister for Finance and Minister for Employment Education and Training. He was the principal supporter in terms of the federal Labor Government. Not only did he press Prime Ministers with respect to the appeal but he also involved all of his friends in terms of the other aspects of the appeal. So he provided personnel, even [ ... ] writing to his mate Casper Weinberger the former Secretary of Defence in the Reagan administration. And in the end the bottom line is that Beazley provided the 8 million as the Minister as [a] below the line item out of his own budget. [ ... ]

END OF TAPE TWO SIDE A TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 35

JF This is Tape Two Side B. Interviews with John Alexander Cowdell. So John you were saying that Beazley actually provided the funds out of his own Departmental Budget?

9 COWDELL Yes he did. He was Minister for DEET . It was 8 million on a dollar per dollar matching basis that he formally requested of Prime Minister Keating and that he guided [ ... ] through Cabinet and it was approved. And that was the most significant boost to the whole appeal. As I say he not only provided his own time and effort, his own supporters, including myself who was by that time on his staff as an advisor, but of course the largest individual donation. So I think that he and John Maloney are the principal architects. And of course early on they recognised this when they had Kim as Chairman of the Australian Appeal. They [ ... ] also recognised him when they did the ground-breaking in 1994, they had Beazley do the ground-breaking here on campus. And [ ... ] there were lots of photos of Beazley, particularly in '95 when he became Deputy Prime Minister and [ ... ]. It was [ ... ] regrettable that then he was written out of the history. I make the point that when they had opening day and they had a special publication of about 20 pages, a paper, which had a couple of stories about the three knights, "Led charge and fundraising" and "High profile men lend support" - another story about the three knights. There was not one mention of Beazley in the program of opening day or the [ ... ] supplement that was put out. He was essentially 'written out' of the history.

JF And as often happens with these things I guess it was not exactly deliberate?

COWDELL No I wouldn't say it was ... well let me say this. That with the fall of the federal Labor Government in '96 there was a desire that the project not be exclusively seen as a Labor project. Now that had always been the desire of the committee that it wasn't seen exclusively as a Labor project nor was it a Labor

9 Department of Employment, Education and Training. 36 TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL project. [ ... ] In fact people such as the three knights who had no Labor connections at all came on board well before the fall of the federal Labor Government in '96. And we had the handsome pledges from the State Liberal Government under Richard Court prior to that. So it wasn't exclusive ... I must say

1 think they went overboard. We had - because of our Labor connections - certainly myself and Beazley [ ... ] gone to some considerable lengths to broaden the appeal beyond a Labor appeal. Indeed the university was running it as an education appeal and there were all sorts of different aspects. And [ ... ] it had the support of a Republican administration in the United States. I didn't see the need to completely write out any Labor involvement. If you read the paper and the program, the Labor Party or its members or principals such as Deputy Prime Minister Beazley, had no role in the appeal. By the time the institution was opened they were rendered invisible.

JF Do you think this is simply the take that the journalist who put it together or the editor of that publication had on the whole thing or was there something more sinister going on?

COWDELL Oh I don't think it's sinister. People had taken over in various roles, and those people who had taken over roles for the latter couple of years wrote themselves into the history and conveniently neglected five years worth of effort before they were even sighted.

JF As is often the case I guess in [unclear]

£OWDELL so I don't know that you would say it was deliberate but those who now headed the appeal wrote themselves up and didn't even have the common decency to acknowledge any previous contributions.

JF Being fairly close to Kim Beazley junior did you observe a personal effect on him? 37 TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL

COWDELL No, no it had no effect. I probably took more offence than he did knowing [ ... ] the amount of time he had put in. The fact that he had guided through the Commonwealth contribution, the fact that he had led the delegation to the Prime Minister, the fact that he had been the first National Chairman of the Campaign, I was affronted by the fact that he had been wiped out of the history. More so than him. I mean he had so many other things on his plate to worry about than this. He took it in his stride so I don't know that he even noticed ' although I did make a comment about it on an occasion or two.

Well now you've spoken about the two giants of the project. Who JF else rates a mention as being significant in getting the thing going?

COWDELL [ ... ] So I have mentioned Maloney [ ... ]. Maloney is a giant, as significant [a] contributor as Watts and Sharpham [were] in terms of the concept and starting [the project]. [ ... ] In terms of the university you would add contributions there from John de Laeter who was involved in some of the meetings, who was I think Acting Vice-Chancellor in various interregnums. There was Vicky Williamson the University Librarian who championed the Prime Ministerial Library component. Remembering that is under the administration of the University Library. She provided staff support and was an enthusiastic supporter of the whole concept so in a sense she provided on-campus, not only off-campus support and enthusiasm which permeated down to the committee. [ ... ] She provided the first archivist and so on from her resources. She also defended it stoutly on campus against others who were critical of it [ ... ].You might expect some support in terms of the University Librarian but she did it Well. You could add others to that in terms of the staff at Curtin. [ ... ] Ian Fairnie [ ... ] was responsible for many aspects on the American end [and], when he was in town [he] attended various meetings of the Planning Committee and Appeal Committees. [ ... ] Of course in terms of the university from the Art Gallery side and the University Collection, Dr John Saunders was the most significant TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 38

contributor. He came along to committee meetings, he expressed the needs of the gallery realising that it had started out as a joint venture. In fact [in] the publication when the John Curtin Centre was opened there was an article on the actual library component and I was intrigued by its first line which read as follows. "The inspiration for the John Curtin Centre grew from the John Curtin Gallery. It was behind the whole endeavour." Now I say no more about that, but I had always suspected it. That is I had always suspected that the university wanted a gallery bigger than Lawrence Wilson out of it. They were willing to concede that they'd tack on a Prime Ministerial Library and they'd get a gallery out of it. So perhaps I am attaching more importance than should be to the first line of that one article but I suggest that John Saunders and his art collection and the support for the gallery which was certainly there as one of the two bases might have been the key to the whole thing.

JF That's an interesting view and only further historical study could reveal that I guess.

COWDELL Yes. I don't know the answer. When I read that article I had always thought that the momentum from the university side had been far more on the basis that they wanted a gallery out of it particularly after UWA had Lawrence Wilson.

JF Yes.

[ ... ]

COWDELL I'd previously mentioned that I thought significant contributions had been made by Sir Charles Court and Sir Lawrence Brodie-Hall in terms of providing contributions and wherewithal. Sir James Cruthers certainly applied himself as National Campaign Chairman. [ ... ] I don't think we got any donations from Rupert Murdoch or other associates of Sir James [and] that was a little TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 39

disappointing. But the three knights did put in a significant effort and made a significant contribution. And of course [ ... ] Sir Lawrence Brodie-Hall got Arvi Parvo and his various mates in the mining sector who had been traditional supporters of Curtin on side. Sir Charles [ ... ] got Challenge Bank and various State institutions on side and most notably his son Richard Court soon to be Premier. Yes so [ ... ] there is a significant contribution there. I should have mentioned under the uni. heading with John Saunders and Ian Fairnie [ ... ], David Waddell, who was a key [person] in the public relations sector and attended a lot of the meetings [ ... ]. He was there in terms of staff that were involved on a day to day basis in arranging things. So I think they're the most significant contributors. Maloney and Beazley above the rest. You would mention the others, Watts, Sharpham, de Laeter - this is from the uni. sector - Ian Fairnie, John Saunders, Vicki Williamson, the Librarian, David Waddell [ ... ]. Also Dawkins played a part as Federal Treasurer and [ ... ] very appropriately they got Dawkins to launch the international [ ... ] campaign as Federal Treasurer at the Cottesloe Civic Centre [ ... ]. And so they're in my recollection the most significant contributors.

JF How do you view the contribution of Raymond Johnson who was outside the country doing his bit? Is his a significant contribution?

COWDELL Ray certainly put in time and travelled to Australia on many occasions to get an understanding of the project. He put in time and effort. I think you would have to look at the balance sheet. I think the American Appeal was a complete failure and nothing was delivered which is a shame. I'll leave it at that.

JF All right well now it was all about getting ... well it was a lot about getting a building up and running. What from your point of view happened as regards the design of buildings and so on? You wouldn't have been heavily into that side of it but what were your lrnpress'ons of the process of designing it? TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 40

COWDELL I was shown drawings from time to time. Of course we'd started off with a very modest set of drawings which was just a library and gallery and then it had expanded considerably and of course you got a number of different versions. I suppose I was only involved on some occasions when it would be brought to my attention that perhaps the balance hadn't been correctly arrived at. As they were talking about rooms for this and that, I would be acquainted of the fact that the gallery might be envisaged to occupy 90 percent and [ ... ] the Prime Ministerial Library[ ... ] was more like a shed on the side. I certainly pointed out that significant support was based on the Prime Ministerial Library component and that it had to have a reasonable set of rooms. [ ... ] I knew the primary interest of the university had started off with a gallery but it couldn't be the exclusive interest. So yes I did from time to time have words with people in the administration [ ... ] - such as the Vice-Chancellor - who were receiving the various drawings. Having said that I complimented the Vice-Chancellor and the others involved of how they wrapped it up[ ... ] to bring forward what was phase 4 (of the Vice-Chancellery) and 17 million from a capital budget to combine with what had been raised to have a new heart of the university. I thought that was a win win situation. It made [ ... ] the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery a contribution in effecting the greater whole and so I was very supportive of that.

JF Yes. Now I believe the building has actually won a design award. What do you recall about that?

COWDELL I don't.

JF No, right.

COWDELL I am aware of it but I have no specialist knowledge of that.

JF Yes. Did you or the Labor Party component of the committees have anything to do with the choice of architects? TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 41

COWDELL None.

JF None. They were Brand, Deykin and Hay I believe.

COWDELL Yes I think it's more to do with traditional association with the university. I think they said that they were getting more value out of the architects. [ ... ] They had credited some element of contribution [in kind] to the appeal from the architects. But in many of these things it was the university using their traditional suppliers and those they had confidence in.

JF Yes. Well now it's probably about time we talked a bit more about the Curtin family and their interest in the project and their support of the project. You've made several references to Elsie McLeod, would you like to deal exclusively with the family and their support?

COWDELL Well certainly Elsie has always been an enthusiastic supporter of promoting and honouring her father. She has made it the family mission whereas son John Curtin junior has shied away from his background and association. I have never known him to attend any function connected with anything honouring his late father. Obviously in later years illness prevented that. Certainly his son followed in Elsie's footsteps so to speak to take a very active interest - John Curtin Ill. Then he followed on with providing material that was held by John Curtin junior. John Curtin Ill has been very active in all the functions so in a sense he's taking over the role of his father. And, of course as Elsie has become more infirm then of course it has been her side of the family that have taken over the role there. So in a sense, yes the grandchildren have provided support. Beverley Lane and Barbara Davidson and so on [ ... ] and John Curtin Ill.

JF Yes. What's the story associated with the house because you think were a co-trustee of the John Curtin's house. TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 42

COWDELL The situation with respect to the house. [ ... ] I always viewed this as a part of the total product, that as the university adopted the name and had provided the Prime Ministerial Library and was accumulating most of the memorabilia plus documents and so on then it was logical that the house be added to that domain. I certainly campaigned publicly and would pepper the government in parliament with questions and so on. I've got to say that once again Richard Court came good in this regard. He provided half the cost of the house when Elsie had to be institutionalised and the family were going to sell to help pay for her care. [ ... ] Obviously the first thing was to see if there was a public purchaser rather than just a private purchaser. The Court Government came to the party and provided half and the Howard Government provided the other half so it was purchased. Then [ ... ] when Labor came in to government at the State level [ ... ] the house was under [the] Department of Planning and Infrastructure and Alannah McTiernan 'inherited' it. And of course it had always been envisaged that there would probably be two trustees, one would be the Curtin University and the other would be the National Trust which had the expertise in terms of houses. However, both potential trustees said [ ... ] you needed a full report. There was a full conservation report and it did identify that the roof was about to cave in and so on and they said, "Well we're not going to sign on the dotted line if we're immediately up for about $110,000 for a roof." So they wanted some contribution for that. So the government through Planning and Infrastructure pledged that money. The problem was then that Alannah gave the money for distribution through [the] Heritage Council. [ ... ] The Heritage Council imposed costly bureaucratic conditions that would deplete the value of the grant. The National Trust hit the roof and said, "Look if we can't do it without them scamming off the top we want nothing to do with it." I warned Alannah of this. In the end she cancelled the cheque to the Heritage Council and re-issued, I think, one cheque direct to the National Trust. I think the cheque for Curtin for their half might have still come through the Heritage Council. But it was decidedly unhelpful - the contribution from the Heritage Council. But nevertheless it was TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 43

overcome so we had two trustees which are the University and the National Trust.

JF And we'll talk about the matter of John's Curtin body at a later stage I think because that. .. although do you think that comes in at this point?

COWDELL Probably comes in here, it's with respect to the brand identification I suppose you could say. [ ... ] At one stage there was a proposal I think put by various people at the university end that the body of the former Prime Minister be transferred from Karrakatta to the campus here. That was, I'm handing to you, 10 was the original publication [ ... ] which was very much mausoleum style with just the library and the gallery.

JF Yes. Indeed it was when you look at the illustration which is on the centre of the art [unclear].

COWDELL Yes. So one could understand given that the university came up with this drawing that they might be drawn to the concept of putting the body in one of the rooms.

JF So that was not pursued?

COWDELL That was not pursued.

JF Fine. Well now the ...

COWDELL The project went in other directions.

10 Series of brochures depicting possible style of a building for the Prime Ministerial Library and Gallery. John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library. Records of the John Curtin Centre. John Curtin Foundation correspondence, 1987-1999. JCPML00882/47 TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 44

JF Mmm, yes. The public functions. You've already alluded to some of the public functions that were related to setting the building and so on on target. Would you like to briefly recount your memory of say the ground-breaking ceremony and follow that with others that are significant?

COWDELL Well I mean there were a range of public functions they had to do. [ ... ] here were the whole range of appeal launches. [ ... ] The university tried to involve as wide an array of community as possible. So they involved Treasurer John Dawkins with a particular launch [ ... ] down at the Cottesloe Civic Centre with the family. Obviously there were cocktail functions at different venues, and [ ... ] in different States. Here of course the ground-breaking ceremony was one in which they got Kim Beazley as then Campaign Chairman to turn the sod - that must have been about '94.

JF Yes it was October '94 I believe.

COWDELL Yes. Then of course things progressed at the various stages. As I recall the Governor General, Sir William Dean, was involved with respect to the formal opening. Then there were a range of functions perhaps culminating in October '98 with the Founder's Dinner which was of course held in the gallery. But as I say [ ... ] there was a whole range of them and they were adapted appropriately to who could perform the ceremony and who needed to be impressed at the time.

JF Were they a source of additional contributions by anybody or was that not the purpose?

COWDELL Well some of them were meant to involve people, and in the sense that they were a display. There was always an audience whether it be just internal sceptical academics for the Governor General [ ... ] or the Federal Minister for Employment, Education and Training. Then they all had their PR 45 TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL effect I think. I don't know that you could attach any particular monetary donation to any one of them but they were designed to attract support both within the university community and in terms of inviting potential donors.

JF Yes. What was your reaction to the appointment of staff for the newly built and established library and gallery?

COWDELL I had no role whatsoever. It was an internal university matter.

JF But you've had quite a bit to do with the centre since it's been operative haven't you?

COWDELL Yes.

JF Perhaps would you like to explain what you were able to donate either from the Curtin memorabilia and from your own sources to help the collection along.

COWDELL I took a particular interest in the collection. [ ... ] I had retrieved the donation of perhaps 60 books and other items from John Curtin House in Canberra. I had no intention of returning them, and I consulted Elsie McLeod the original donor. I [then] sent them out here with the [approval of the] State Office of the Labor Party. [ ... ] In fact there's a letter on file with respect to [ ... ] Elsie's indignation at finding that it [her gift] had been in the same tea chest that was sent over to Canberra, [and] had been in the basement for about 10 years. She said well that had abrogated the original contribution. Mind you possession is nine-tenths so if the National of Headquarters of the ALP had forgotten about it for ten years in a tea chest in the basement then they had certainly forgotten [ ... ] - that it had gone West and wasn't in the basement any more. Certainly Elsie had contributed a range of items then to our exhibitions in '85 and '91. And in consultation with her I made sure that they were donated here. It included an [ ... ] TAPE TWO SIDE B JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 46 an ornate decorated walking stick and a framed commission with the great seal of the Commonwealth signed by Lord Gowrie. Mind you the family would still have some of these because there were about six of them. Curtin, I think, was Minister for Defence as well as Prime Minister and [ ] so these were issued every time there was an alteration of commission. [ ] Obviously there were a number of items that were also contributed from the ALP's archives which extensively deal with the history of John Curtin as a member of the Party. And [ ... ] on one occasion I had noticed that one of our affiliates, the AWU11, was moving offices and I stopped by to talk to the State Secretary and there I found 50 years of original copies of the Westralian Worker, so I said do you really want these? "No," they said, "VVe're looking to get rid of them." I loaded them in my car and brought them out here so the JCPML has a full set of the Westralian Worker from 1900.

END OF TAPE TWO SIDE B

11 Australian Workers' Union TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 47

This is Tape Three Side A in the series of interviews with John Alexander Cowdell concerning the beginnings of the John Curtin Centre. This tape is being recorded on 7 March 2006 in the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library Reading Room. The interviewer being John Ferrell.

So John to take up the question where we left off. You had talked about the John Curtin memorabilia and such like that was contributed to the Library after it opened. I think you've also mentioned AWU having a set of the Westralian Worker which you were able to donate. But I understand also you probably donated your private papers. Would you perhaps take up the matter there?

COWDELL Yes. There was the original library collection that came back from Canberra and was held by the WA Branch and then of course additional materials that came in for the exhibitions of '85 and '91. I had a discussion with Elsie McLeod and persuaded her to contribute most of those to the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library. Then as I say the AWU was moving, the AWU had a full set from 1900 to about 1950 of the Westralian Worker so that provided all the copy of the articles that Curtin had written when he was editor and some articles that he had written after being editor. In addition to that there were some items from Party files. There were certainly some books that I [ ... ] contributed that weren't in the collection. And also of course even as President of the Legislative Council I came across some Curtin bits and pieces in the Legislative Council Collection. I was culling the Council collection to be relevant to the Council so I sent out a couple of items here that were relevant to John Curtin.

JF Apart from that did you have private papers of your own involvement with the proposal or the project that. .. ?

COWDELL Oh yes with respect to the project, all the papers [of the Appeal Planning Committee] that I had I lodged with the Library here [ ... ], and then also of the reference group and the Advisory Committee of the JCPML. There were TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 48 from time to time Focus Group meetings with respect to direction which were major reviews and then there were meetings in addition to that.

JF Well that pretty well, I think, sums up the material that you were able to contribute to the Library so perhaps now you could address the question that I posed about the extent to which your political career demands affected your role in relation to the centre?

COWDELL Obviously with most participants who were non-university participants we had as they say 'day jobs' and things that had to be done. This was very much applicable to Kim Beazley as well. So in a sense I treated this as just another campaign. Between 1983 and 1990 I was involved in the planning of seven general election campaigns and about seven by-election campaigns in Western Australia so in that sense I viewed this portfolio and the meetings as another campaign meeting. But nevertheless they were significant demands - general election campaigns - on my time and also of course doing exhibitions like our Centenary Exhibition in '91 of the Centenary of the Labor Party, that took considerable time and effort and fundraising and so there were all these other things going on in addition.

JF Yes. Now perhaps since the Centre has opened, what is your personal ongoing role in relation to it?

COWDELL I get invited to things. Perhaps I should be more serious. As I say since it's opened I probably I have participated in terms of the Advisory Committee and the Focus Groups and giving advice. And, also of course the Centre has helped out most notably with respect to the publication of the Centenary History of the ALP and the TLC12 in WA. [ ... ] We used some of the extensive photographic records that are held here and some of the documents.

12 Trades and Labour Council. TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 49

And of course Dr Bobbie Oliver the author of the history being a Curtin academic did also use the resources of the Prime Ministerial Library.

JF Yes. And how often does that Advisory group meet and what sort of commitment does it involve?

COWDELL It met .. I suppose it would meet a couple of times a year in the earlier years, and you would explore concepts of what role the Prime Ministerial Library should be pursuing, whether it was primarily archival. There would be feedback with respect to publications and opportunities for publications with respect to leadership programs and youth programs and providing material to political and legal studies. Also discussions about focus. So for example there were various discussions - all right the Prime Ministerial Library has focused on its core which is John Curtin, the man and the politician and the Prime Minister. Should the themes then be developed of the Institution of the Prime Ministerial Office? Should the theme more be developed of Australia in the Second World War? Or one other idea I suggested, should the theme be developed of [ ... ] Western Australia in the Federation, that is the national component of WA politics, given that the core is here in terms of the only West Australian Prime Minister? Is it appropriate that in fact the collection includes say some Forrest material? Sir John Forrest being certainly Treasurer of the Commonwealth and probably acting Prime Minister on some occasions. Or say the Beazley papers as Beazley was Deputy Prime Minister and Acting Prime Minister on occasions - whether that would be the way to go. So there were some questions about whether the focus should or could be broadened.

JF And then you would be in favour of broadening it?

COWDELL Yes. TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 50

JF Mmm. Obviously the Library is your first love out of the complex Curtin Centre. To what extent are you involved with the Gallery?

COWDELL Not at all.

JF That . was simply answered. And presumably similarly with the International Institute?

COWDELL The International Institute of course was the centre piece to match the new architectural centre-piece of the university and it was really dependent on the American appeal. Neither came off - the money was not raised - although a grouping was brought together, it was really of other interests across the university. It was never welded together with a focus and there were never any resources there. It has since been wound up. In fact I will probably be suggesting now that that missing component might be replaced by [ ... ] Greg Craven's 'think tank' [ ... ] the John Curtin Institute of Public Affairs. That might provide [ ... ] more of a focus and there would be more of a symmetry with the Prime Ministerial Library and if you actually had a domestic think tank focused on political issues across the range of disciplines. So certainly that is one idea for resurrecting the original idea which was the John Curtin Centre with the three components. At the moment the International Centre has ceased. There is still the Gallery and the Prime Ministerial Library. There might be connections provided there with a closer associate with the Institute and I think that's an area worth exploring in the further development of the centre.

JF Yes. Well now I believe that you were the recipient of an award, the John Curtin Centre Fellowship in November of 2004. I wondered if you would in concluding the interview like to reflect on that honour and also say a little bit about the Fellowship and how it is to be used? TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 51

COWDELL Well I must say I have the citation here before me, and I shouldn't say surprisingly, but [ ... ] they've actually got the citation correct in terms of the fact that "John Cowdell has enthusiastically and actively supported the vision of establishing the John Curtin Centre and especially the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library. At the time he was Assistant State Secretary at the WA Branch and the custodian of a significant amount of historical material relating to John Curtin. His belief in the JCPML was strong enough to ensure that this material became the first donation to the embryonic research collection." Then of course they refer to the role with the Appeal Planning Committee and the fundraising and advice and facilitation after that. So I was very pleased to receive that and I think it adequately sums up the aspects of the role, the initial role, the donations, and of course advisory role since then. So it was a considerable honour. I notice that there the term John Curtin Centre is still used. [ ... ] I think that many of these fellowships have been awarded to those connected with the Gallery rather than the Prime Ministerial Library. So I think it was also particularly pleasing that I was a recipient from the Library side of things. Clearly I had little involvement with the Gallery but I was pleased to be involved in the other third of the task or really the half of the initial task. It was initially a dual combination of the Library and Gallery and the John Curtin International Centre was an add-on with an idea of getting American money for courses.

JF So you were nominated as a Fellow, does this carry any remuneration or any obligations or ... ?

COWDELL I think the concept is that it carries obligations rather than benefits so there's certainly no remuneration [in] connection with it. I am trying to recall, I think they [ ... ] "allow me access from time to time to the University Library and other facilities" but I don't think it went as far as actually getting a parking sticker attached to it. So it was an honour that was gratefully appreciated but [ ... ] there were no material benefits attached. TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 52

JF Well on that note John, I think I've come to the end really of the list of questions that we were to canvass, is there anything else that in conclusion you would like to add?

COWDELL Perhaps just to say that I have been very pleased with some of the themes that have been pursued by the Prime Ministerial Library and particularly their publications which are of the highest order. I thought that David Black's two books of correspondence 13 were very well edited and were a great contribution to the understanding of Curtin. And [ ... ] these materials were made available because of the good relationship between the Prime Ministerial Library and the Curtin family. [ ... ] John Curtin Ill persuaded his father to make significant donations of family heirlooms and artefacts because the relationship had been built up and I think that was important. And [ ... ] there were publications of the 1 15 various lectures, Serle's lecture 4, Michelle Grattan's , and so on. There was the superb publication, the bibliography of the Curtin holdings which I think must be 6 the finest bibliography of any Prime Minister 1 . When you look through the listings in that publication you find almost half of the holdings are here in Perth at this venue and half in the National Archives. Now I think we've actually put ourselves on the map in that regard. So I think in terms of the publications, the archival work has been excellent. The annual lectures and the commemoration of Curtin the man in terms of the anniversaries of the date of his death and assuming office and so on have adequately commemorated his role and that has been particularly appreciated by the family. And of course the contribution that the JCPML has made to the travelling exhibitions in conjunction [with] the National Archives that have gone from the Old Parliament House in Canberra [and] been

13 Black, David (ed) (1995) In his own words: John Curtin's speeches and writings, Paradigm Books Curtin University, Perth, and Black, David (2001) 'Friendship is a sheltering tree': John Curtin's letters 1907 to 1945, John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library, Curtin University, Perth. 14 Geoffrey Serie, Inaugural JCPML Visiting Scholars' Lecture, 1997, 'Glimpses of John Curtin', JCPML00231. Available at http://john.curtin.edu.au/events/speeches/serlelecture.html 15 Michelle Grattan, 1998, 'The Prime Minister and the press: A study in intimacy', JCPML00331/1, Available at http://john.curtin.edu.au/events/speeches/grattanlecture.html 16 Black, David and Wallace, Lesley (2004) John Curtin: Guide to archives of Australia's prime ministers, National Archives of Australia and John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library, Canberra. TAPE THREE SIDE A JOHN ALEXANDER COWDELL 53 around the countryside. So I think you could say there that this has been a very significant contribution and of course to also encouraging history teaching and [ ... ] the Sir Charles Court Young Leaders' Program [ ... ]. I think there's been an impressive contribution to date and I think the scope for further development in terms of perhaps widening the basic theme but also perhaps in terms of combining with the Institute and think tank to go to another phase.

JF And what is your appreciation of the electronic archive or the electronic nature of the archive?

COWDELL I am sure it's very good but I haven't accessed it myself. I'm more a collector of books and original documents and I tend to prize those more highly [ ... ]. Although I recognise its importance [in providing access] to the holdings of the National Archives where in fact you wouldn't get access other than in an electronic form. You certainly couldn't get the originals. In fact I must pursue this. There's probably a need to link up with some of the holdings in Battye of the ALP files which have Curtin correspondence in them. I don't know whether that link-up has been made.

JF Fine. Well thank you very much for your time and trouble in making this recording.

COWDELL My pleasure.

JF It's been mine too, so thank you very much.

END OF INTERVIEW