LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2793
OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 3 December 2014
The Council met at Eleven o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, B.B.S., M.H.
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PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P., Ph.D., R.N.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN
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THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK
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THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S.
MEMBERS ABSENT:
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE
THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING
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PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSANG CHUN-WAH, G.B.M., J.P. THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
MR YAU SHING-MU, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
MR JAMES HENRY LAU JR., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY
THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND TAM CHI-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
THE HONOURABLE LAI TUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., I.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE HONOURABLE EDDIE NG HAK-KIM, S.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR ANDY LAU KWOK-CHEONG, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MR MATTHEW LOO, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)
TABLING OF PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:
Subsidiary Legislation/Instruments L.N. No.
Electronic Transactions Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 1) Order 2014 ...... 141/2014
Employees Retraining Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 2) Notice 2014 ...... 142/2014
Other Papers
No. 38 ─ Prisoners' Education Trust Fund Report by the Trustee of the Fund for the period from 1 April 2013 to 31 March 2014
No. 39 ─ Fire Services Department Welfare Fund Report on the Administration of the Fund and financial statements for the year ended 31 March 2014
No. 40 ─ Emergency Relief Fund Annual Report by the Trustee for the year ending 31 March 2014
No. 41 ─ Independent Police Complaints Council Report 2013/14
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No. 42 ─ Ocean Park Hong Kong Annual Report 2013-2014
No. 43 ─ Electoral Affairs Commission Report on the Recommended Constituency Boundaries for the 2015 District Council Election
Report No. 5/14-15 of the House Committee on Consideration of Subsidiary Legislation and Other Instruments
Report of the Bills Committee on Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014
ADDRESSES
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Address. Dr LAM Tai-fai will address the Council on the "Report of the Independent Police Complaints Council 2013/14".
Independent Police Complaints Council Report 2013/14
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, on behalf of the Independent Police Complaints Council (the IPCC), I present its fifth Report since its incorporation in 2009. This Report covers the financial year ending 31 March 2014.
In the year 2013-2014, the IPCC scrutinized and endorsed the findings of 2 591 complaint cases involving 4 740 allegations, an increase of 4.1% and a decrease of 2.9% respectively over the previous year. During this period, the three most common allegations were "Neglect of Duty" (with 2 304 counts), "Misconduct/Improper Manner/Offensive Language" (with 1 735 counts) and "Assault" (with 316 counts). These three types of allegations accounted for 91.9% of all allegations made in 2013-2014.
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Of the allegations endorsed in 2013-2014, 1 318 were fully investigated. Of these, 86 were classified as "Substantiated"; 72 "Substantiated Other Than Reported"; 43 "Not Fully Substantiated"; 557 "Unsubstantiated"; 467 "No Fault" and 93 "False". President, these figures also include 147 allegations of which classification was changed from that earlier conducted by the Police following queries raised by the IPCC. In 2013-2014, the IPCC raised a total of 802 queries and suggestions in respect of the cases endorsed. Among them, 426 queries and suggestions were accepted by the Police.
Under the Observers Scheme, 2 471 observations were conducted in 2013-2014, an increase of 22.8% over the previous year. During the reporting period, the IPCC has also interviewed 11 persons to seek clarification from them on matters relating to the investigation reports.
In addition to the usual work of monitoring complaint investigations carried out by the Complaints Against Police Office, the IPCC has strengthened the liaison with the Police and other stakeholders on issues of significant public interest. Its aim is to act as a bridge between the Police and all stakeholders, to provide a platform for the exchange of views and to foster better understanding between everyone concerned.
President, on behalf of the IPCC, I wish to take the opportunity of tabling this Report in this Council to thank this Council and other stakeholders for their support of the IPCC's work.
President, I so submit.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. First question.
Measures to Meet Public Demand for Housing
1. MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, quite a number of members of the public have complained to me that as subsidized housing is in short supply, members of the public who are waiting to move in such housing are forced to rent private accommodation. However, despite the implementation of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2801 a series of measures by the Government in recent years to cool down the overheated property market, residential property prices still continue to rise which pushes up rentals continuously, causing members of the public enormous hardship. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the respective expected numbers of public housing estates and Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) courts which will be ready for intake within the coming nine months, and set out in a table their names, the districts in which they are located, the numbers of flats to be provided and intake dates;
(2) whether it will introduce new measures for cooling down the overheated property market within the coming six months to bring down residential property prices and rentals; if it will, of the details; if not, how the Government addresses the public demand for housing; and
(3) given the short supply of subsidized housing, whether the authorities will implement rent control measures again to make rented private accommodation affordable to members of the public; if they will, when they will introduce such measures; if not, what more effective measures the Government has in place to help members of the public rent private accommodation at reasonable rents?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, housing is an important livelihood issue which both the Government and the public are concerned about. The Government has been paying close attention to the trend of the private residential property market and remains highly vigilant on the risk of a property bubble.
To address the overheated property market, the Government has introduced several rounds of demand-side management measures, including the Special Stamp Duty (SSD), the Buyer's Stamp Duty (BSD) and the doubled ad valorem stamp duty (DSD). These measures aim to combat speculative activities, ensure healthy and stable development of the property market, and accord priority to the home ownership needs of Hong Kong permanent residents in the midst of the present tight housing supply.
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My reply to the three parts of the question raised by Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung is as follows:
(1) The Housing Department (HD) will arrange intake as soon as possible upon the completion of public rental housing (PRH) estates. In the coming nine months (that is, December 2014 to August 2015), six PRH estates are expected to be completed, providing about 18 000 units. Details are at Annex. As various preparatory work, such as obtaining Completion Certificates and Occupation Permits after building inspections of the estates, are required to be completed during the period between completion of construction and intake, the date of intake and relevant arrangements are yet to be finalized. For the HOS, the first batch of newly built HOS projects is under construction and is expected to be completed in 2016-2017. These HOS projects are located in Sha Tin, Tsuen Wan, Tsing Yi and Yuen Long and will provide a total of 2 160 HOS flats. The Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA) plans to launch the pre-sale of these flats by end of this month (December 2014).
(2) Demand-side management measures help stabilize the residential property market, and are effective in combating short-term speculative activities and curbing external demands. Increase in property prices has been moderated since the introduction of the DSD in February last year (that is, 2013). For the first two months of 2013 (that is, before the introduction of the DSD), property prices increased by 2.7% per month on average. From March 2013 to September 2014, the increase was 0.6% per month on average. Besides, stamp duty statistics from the Inland Revenue Department indicate that the number of short-term resale transactions (including confirmor transactions and resale within 24 months) remains at a low level in the third quarter of this year (that is, 2014), with a monthly average of 84 cases, or 1.2% of the total transactions. This represented a sharp decrease from the monthly average of 2 661 cases (or 20% of the total transactions) during January to November 2010 (that is, before the introduction of SSD). Also, purchases of residential property by non-local individuals and non-local companies stood at a monthly average of 126 cases, or only 1.7% of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2803
the total transactions, in the third quarter of this year, markedly below the monthly average of 365 cases, (or 4.5% of the total transactions), from January to October 2012 (that is, before the introduction of the BSD).
The demand-side management measures are extraordinary measures introduced under exceptional circumstances. We will continue to closely monitor the property market with reference to a series of indicators and review the situation at an appropriate time. These indicators include property prices, affordability of the public, transaction volume, supply situation, ratio of mortgage or rental to income, and so on, as well as changes in the local and external economic situations (for example, the pace of adjusting or withdrawing the quantitative easing policies by the United States or European countries, and so on). The Government has also undertaken to review the demand-side management measures one year after the passage of the relevant Amendment Bills that promulgated the demand-side management measures and report the outcome to the Legislative Council. We understand that the crux of the problem lies in the inadequate supply of housing and land. The Government will therefore continue to adopt a two-pronged approach. On the one hand, we will adopt a supply-led strategy and continue to increase supply of land and housing to address the demand-supply imbalance problem at source in the long run. On the other hand, we will curb external and speculative demands as and when necessary to help stabilize the property market and prevent the adverse consequences arising from an overheated market.
It is worth pointing out that public support for the Government to develop new land and for the HA's housing production plan in districts is the key to resolving the supply issue. It is not possible for land and housing production programmes to have zero impact on the neighbourhood. The public needs to accept trade-offs in satisfying the housing needs of the community.
(3) There are views suggesting the Government to consider reintroducing tenancy control measures with a view to providing 2804 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
more protection to tenants, including restricting the rate of rent increase. As we have explained on different occasions, we are concerned that introducing additional regulation for the rental market hastily amidst the present tight housing supply situation may discourage landlords from renting out their premises, thereby reducing supply of flats. Also, landlords may charge a higher initial rent in order to minimize the impact arising from tenancy control measures in the future, thereby pushing up the rental level. This would probably bring additional burden to those grassroot tenants with imminent housing needs before they could benefit from the measures.
Tenancy control is highly controversial and there is as yet consensus in the community over this issue. The Government must act with caution and consider the impact of the measures on various stakeholders and the overall residential property market in a comprehensive manner. The Government has conducted a study into Hong Kong's past experience and overseas experience in implementing tenancy control and briefed the Legislative Council Panel on Housing in July 2014. Empirical findings, both local and overseas, suggest an array of unintended effects that the implementation of tenancy control may bring about despite the good intention. Therefore, the Government considers that it would not be in the overall public interest to rush into implementing any tenancy control measures.
The Government believes that the problem of surging rent is caused by the serious demand-supply imbalance in housing. To this end, the Government will endeavour to increase housing supply, especially the supply of public housing. The Government will increase housing and land supply through short-, medium- and long- term measures, and strive to expedite the planning and construction procedures with a view to achieving the new supply target. At the same time, the Government will continue to pay close attention to the trend of the private residential rental market.
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Annex
PRH estates to be completed between December 2014 and August 2015
PRH Estate District Flat Number(note) Shui Chuen O Estate Sha Tin 5 400 Cheung Lung Wai Estate North 1 400 Hung Fuk Estate Yuen Long 4 900 Lower Ngau Tau Kok Estate Kwun Tong 600 On Tat Estate Kwun Tong 2 600 So Uk Estate Sham Shui Po 2 900 Total 17 800
Note:
Round to the nearest hundred
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, if a man is an idiot, he will present fallacies in logic. This applies to the Government too. In part (2) of the main reply, the Secretary mentioned the so-called demand-side management measures ― I have supported the Secretary in implementing the various "curb" measures, or the so-called "triple curbs" measures and the "quadruple curbs" measures. During the implementation of the demand-side management measures, the demand will certainly decrease, yet the buying power will accumulate. Once the authorities lift the "curb" measures, the buying power will be released. By then, property prices will definitely soar, and the rate of increase will even be greater.
However, when I asked about the implementation of tenancy control measures, the Secretary used the same logic to refute my argument. He said if the Government introduced regulation for the rental market hastily, landlords would stop renting out their premises and this would push up the rental level. They are idiots, are they not? When they introduced the "double curbs" measures, they followed the same logic. Yet the authorities insisted on introducing the "curb" measures even at the expense of seeing a drastic surge in property prices three years later. How can the authorities explain the case logically?
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I do not bother to produce any evidence of proof, for LEUNG Chun-ying is good at lying and he may even mention the 18 000 units …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, have you put forth your supplementary question?
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Do you understand what I mean?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I do not quite understand your question, please repeat your supplementary question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Let me teach you.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): When the authorities planned to introduce the "curb" measures, they said that those so-called demand-side management measures must be implemented to cool down the property market, and for this reason, I gave my support to the implementation of those measures. Frankly, the measures may have regulated the demand for the time being, yet once those measures are lifted, the pent-up buying power will push up property prices rapidly …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please state your supplementary question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): The measures mentioned by the Secretary in part (2) of the main reply were implemented according to this logic. However, in part (3) of the main reply, the Secretary used a different law of logic to refute me. When I requested that tenancy control measures be introduced, the Secretary rejected the request on the grounds that the introduction of tenancy control measures would prevent landlords from renting out their premises, thereby pushing up the rental level. These two laws of logic are not compatible.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What is your supplementary question?
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): My question is: Has the Government gone crazy? The logic it applied in implementing the demand-side management measures is the same as the one it used to reject my request for implementing tenancy control measures in the reply. Why would the authorities use the same logic for introducing certain measures and not introducing certain measures? Such a practice is either cunning or idiotic. Perhaps LEUNG Chun-ying is of both, that is, he is both cunning and idiotic.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you have put forth your supplementary question. Please sit down.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Does he understand my question? I think he does not understand it.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please sit down. Secretary, please reply.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, Mr LEUNG's question in fact covers two aspects. On the one hand, in the midst of the prevailing tight housing supply, we consider it necessary to implement demand-side management measures to buy time for the authorities to speed up land development and the pace for supplying housing, with a view to restoring the healthy and stable balance in the property market when housing supply catches up with the demand.
On the other hand, we consider that under the present circumstances, the introduction of tenancy control measures into the rental market may suppress the number of units offered for rental and may push up the rental level, thus affecting the grassroots living in rental housing. Out of this concern, we consider it inappropriate to introduce any tenancy control for the time being.
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MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, I must get this straight. The demand-side management measures introduced by the authorities are an approach of making the gain before feeling the pain, which means today …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, debate is not allowed during question time. You have pointed out your concern about the contradictory logic of the authorizes in policy implementation just now, and the Secretary has already answered that he considers the foci of the two policies are different.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): That is not the case. Please give me one minute to explain it and everyone will benefit from it. His policy approach is to make the gain before feeling the pain, yet our proposal is to endure the pain before getting the gain, which will be a radical solution to the problem. I also want to stand in the election of the Chief Executive …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you cannot give your views in this session. Please sit down and stop giving your views.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Am I right? Why do the authorities only introduce policies aiming to make the gain before feeling the pain and resulting in serious problems in future but refuse my present proposal of enduring pain before getting the gain? This is idiotic …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, please stop speaking.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): President, I would like to follow up a presumption made by the Secretary in part (3) of his main reply, that is, once tenancy control is introduced, landlords may be discouraged in renting out their premises. I think this presumption is strange. If a landlord has vacant premises and the renting out of these premises is his source of investment return, will he stop renting out these premises because of the enactment of legislation on tenancy control? If he does not rent out these premises, he will have no income. Therefore, for landlords holding eight to 10 units, it is impossible that they will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2809 stop renting out the premises to make an income. Will landlords never rent out their premises once the relevant legislation is enacted? Will landlords wait for an unknown number of years for the authorities to amend the legislation before renting out their premises …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FUNG, please state your supplementary question.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): I mean to say that his presumption is seriously wrong.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please state your supplementary question.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is whether the Government should review this wrong presumption, for the introduction of tenancy regulation is not only the request of residential tenants but also that of small and medium enterprises (SMEs). I fail to see why the Government should neglect the existing rental pressure faced by tenants and SMEs in operation. Why have the authorities turned a blind eye to this?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I said in the main reply, we have examined the issues thoroughly. We have not only referred to the past experience of Hong Kong, but have also drawn reference from overseas experience, particularly a detailed study conducted by the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation on the impact of tenancy control measures implemented by different countries. Evidence in this respect shows that tenancy control will affect landlords in renting out their premises in future, thus affecting the supply and pushing up rental level, and also affecting the mobility of residents. Based on these experiences, we consider that the issue should be handled cautiously at the present stage. Moreover, given the tight supply in the property market and the rental market now, we have to act cautiously in this respect.
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MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, some time ago, the authorities announced that the "Interim Scheme to Extend the Home Ownership Scheme Secondary Market to White Form Buyers" (the Interim Scheme) would be launched again to help the public to purchase their own homes. However, according to the response to the first round, only 2 100 transactions out of the 5 000 quota had been completed. Besides, as there was no increase in supply, the demand for HOS flats had been pushed up significantly, resulting in a surge in price, the increase rate of which was 13% higher than that of other small-to-medium sized units. In the previous round, more than half of the buyers failed to complete the transactions. May I ask the authorities whether they have assessed if this was directly related to the significant surge in property prices within a short time, which was beyond the expectation of prospective buyers? Have the authorities assessed whether the same situation will recur when the new round of the Interim Scheme is introduced?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, regarding Mr MA's supplementary question, we have examined the relationship involved. However, we notice that despite the launch of the first round, an accurate conclusion cannot be drawn according to the data or observations, and we thus consider it necessary to launch a new round. On 24 November, the HA decided to launch one more round of the Interim Scheme. Having taken into account the response of the market, we have reduced the quota by half, so the quota of the new round of the Interim Scheme to be implemented next year will be 2 500 units only. We hope that with the experience in the second round, we can confirm whether certain situations, such as those pointed out by Mr MA, will emerge. In other words, we will confirm whether the launch of the Interim Scheme will have a promotion effect on the market, or whether the effect is caused by other factors in the market. Therefore, we consider that the observation to be made in one more round of the Interim Scheme will offer reference of significant value to our future decision on whether or not to retain the Scheme.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary pointed out in his main reply to Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung's question that the authorities had conducted studies on tenancy control and reported to the Legislative Council. However, I think no one will believe that the authorities have conducted studies to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2811 examine tenancy control, for the authorities have made it clear right from the outset that such measures will not be introduced, and those so-called studies have been conducted only to find excuses for them for not to introduce tenancy control.
Secretary, the grassroots face difficulties in finding housing and the problem of surging rental. In view of this, apart from the gradual construction of housing, the continued search for sites for housing construction and the speeding up of planning and housing construction by all means, may I ask what medium- and short-term measures the Government will adopt to help the grassroots, including giving consideration to the provision of rental subsidies?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, in July, we attended the meeting of the Panel on Housing of the Legislative Council. We did conduct large-scale tenancy control studies and draw reference from the past experience of Hong Kong and overseas experience in the studies, and these experiences are important to us when we consider and decide whether or not to introduce tenancy control. After thorough consideration, we came to the view that it is inappropriate to introduce tenancy control amidst the present tight housing supply situation.
Miss MAK mentioned the continual surge in rental and asked whether the authorities will take no measures to address the problem. This is not the case. Since the introduction of the demand-side management measures, we notice that despite the continual rise in property prices and rental, the rate of increase has been milder in comparison with the time prior to the implementation of the "curb" measures. This is one point. Another point is about Miss MAK's question on whether or not rental subsidies will be provided. We think that the provision of rental subsidies in any form at the present stage may not necessarily benefit the tenants but will instead benefit the landlords. Under this circumstance, we consider it inappropriate to introduce any rental subsidies at the present stage.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, it is true that the Government now faces a difficult situation, for even if it wishes to construct more housing, it cannot be done within a short time. However, it seems that the Government's policies have failed to meet the demand for housing construction. Particularly in the course of development, I notice that the policies of the Government are less than comprehensive, including the development plan for 2812 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Kam Tin South. In that case, the Government can in fact change the use of the superstructure along the railway lines to HOS flats purpose instead of private development, and this will expedite the completion of public housing. However, the Government prefers the longer route to the shorter one, slowing down the construction of HOS flats …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please state your supplementary question.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): I wish to know whether or not the Government, particularly the Transport and Housing Bureau, will change these development plans and turn the superstructure along the railway lines into HOS development?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, in certain large-scale new development areas, we will strive to include public housing or subsidized housing in the plan. As for the Kam Tin South project, the relevant planning department is now drawing up the planning, and I believe public housing will be included in the plan. The planning of this project has not yet been finalized, yet we will make consideration from the perspective of meeting the housing needs of the grassroots and strive for the provision of public housing and subsidized housing by all means.
MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): President, I believe the Secretary knows full well the crux of the problem, for he said in his reply that the crux of the problem lay in the inadequate supply of housing and land. During the recent period, the Government has made considerable efforts in land rezoning. However, I notice a problem concerning the housing production ratio, that is, the ratio of private housing to public housing, where the ratio has not been realized fully for certain new sites. This will reduce the land supply for private housing, creating a shortage in the supply of private housing in future …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please state your supplementary question.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2813
MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): May I ask the Government whether the original plan will be implemented again? In view of the obstruction encountered by the North East New Territories development areas and reclamation projects, what other options do the authorities have for solving the problem?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have mentioned two aspects in your supplementary question. Secretary, please reply to Mr CHAN's question.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, we know that the housing problem cannot be changed or addressed overnight or within a short period. For this reason, we have made long-term planning, the 10-year housing programme. For the shorter term of five years, many projects were laid down in the past, and many of the project plans or rezoning plans we are making now are made in preparation for the next five years or the longer term in future.
In this process, we know that a ratio of six to four has been laid down for long-term housing planning. In other words, in development areas in the New Territories or new areas, 60% of the housing supply should be public housing or subsidized housing and 40% should be private housing. Certainly, in specific terms, it will be difficult to achieve this distribution ratio of 6:4 across the board in each and every district or spot. However, we think that if the ratio of 6:4 is maintained in overall supply, the housing needs of the public who are in need of subsidized housing will be satisfied in 10 years and the housing supply in the private market will be adequate.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent 24 minutes and 30 seconds on this question. Second question.
2814 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Railway Developments for New Territories West
2. MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the Government released the Railway Development Strategy 2014 (the Strategy) earlier, initially recommending the implementation of seven new railway projects between 2018 and 2026. However, the exclusion of the Coastal Railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan from the Strategy has disappointed quite a number of residents who have been striving for this railway for years. They are also worried that the future population growth in New Territories West will overload the railway network. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether it knows the details of the residential development projects that will be built along the West Rail and completed within the next decade, including the additional population and traffic demand to be brought about by these projects;
(2) given that the new railway projects include the addition of Hung Shui Kiu Station to the West Rail Line (WRL), the construction of the Tuen Mun South Extension, and the construction of the Northern Link with Kwu Tung Station which connects the East Rail Line and the WRL, whether the authorities have assessed the additional patronage that will be brought to the WRL by these new railway projects upon completion; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(3) whether it has studied if the railway network after completion of the new railway projects will be able to cope with the traffic demand to be generated by future population growth in New Territories West; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; of the short-, medium- and long-term measures, for example, increasing the number of cars on each train, enhancing train frequencies or taking forward new railway projects, and so on, to be implemented by the authorities to cope with the situation of a significant population growth in New Territories West and the WRL reaching its carrying capacity?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the three parts of Mr CHAN Han-pan's question is as follows: LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2815
(1) In the light of the Chief Executive's announcement in the 2014 Policy Address of the target of providing a total of 470 000 public and private housing units over the next decade. The Government has adopted a multi-pronged approach to increase land supply in order to meet the housing production target. Located at the major catchment of the WRL, North West New Territories (NWNT), including Yuen Long and Tuen Mun, plays a strategic role in housing land supply.
According to the Policy Address delivered in January this year, about 150 sites have been identified as having the potential to be rezoned for public and private housing development. There are 14 such sites in Yuen Long and 22 in Tuen Mun. If they are rezoned as planned, these sites can be made available for housing development in the coming five years. Although their specific development parameters have yet to be studied, the current rough estimation made by the Development Bureau indicates that such sites in Yuen Long can provide about 42 000 residential units while Tuen Mun can provide 32 600 residential units, to accommodate planned population intake of around 216 000. Separately, the Government has been actively taking forward the West Rail property development projects. West Rail property development projects successfully tendered in recent years and under planning are at Annex 1.
In parallel, the Government has commenced a number of NWNT development studies and land use reviews for a holistic planning and development of new development areas (NDAs). Such studies and reviews include the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area Planning and Engineering Study, Land Use Review for Kam Tin South and Pat Heung, and Planning and Engineering Study for Housing Sites in Yuen Long South ― Investigation. It is expected that some of the housing units of the mentioned residential sites will be completed in the next decade. The preliminary recommendations of the studies and reviews mentioned above are at Annex 2.
2816 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
(2) and (3)
As stated in our paper submitted to the Subcommittee on Matters Relating to Railways of the Legislative Council Panel on Transport in February this year, the loading of the busiest section of the WRL (that is, Kam Sheung Road Station to Tsuen Wan West Station) in 2013 is 71% under the original design and safety standard of six persons (standing) per sq m (ppsm) calculation and 99%, if it is calculated in terms of a more comfortable riding experience using 4 ppsm.
As short-term measures to address public dissatisfaction with the crowdedness inside trains of the WRL, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) has enhanced platform management for a more even distribution of passengers on platforms and on trains for smoother circulation of passengers and higher efficiency of train operation. In addition, the MTRCL has been operating eight extra train services from 7.30 pm to 12.00 am on Fridays and Saturdays, enhancing the service frequency to five minutes per trip starting from end-August this year. The MTRCL has also kept a close watch over the service level of and passenger demand for the WRL, and will adjust service arrangements as necessary, so as to tie in with the transport demand of the commuting public.
On medium-term measures, the construction of the Shatin to Central Link (SCL) provides a good opportunity for service enhancement. Through building new tracks, the SCL will link up the Ma On Shan Line with the WRL, routing through Tai Wai and Hung Hum to reach Tuen Mun, forming the East West Corridor (EWC). As planned, the number of train compartments will be gradually increased from the current seven to eight starting from late 2016. By then, the overall carrying capacity of the WRL will be increased by at least 14%. The consultant has estimated that, the loading of the busiest section (Kam Sheung Road Station - Tsuen Wan West Station) of the EWC in 2031 will be 64% under 6 ppsm and 90% under 4 ppsm. At that time, the crowdedness of the WRL should have been relieved.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2817
However, the consultant has estimated in the Strategy that, upon the completion of the Northern Link, Hung Shui Kiu Station and Tuen Mun South Station Extension, the loading of the EWC along its busiest section will be increased.
In the long run, the WRL will reach its maximum capacity one day and therefore, we need to plan early. The Government shall monitor the increase in transport demand of the WRL and to further look into the possibility of improving the service frequency of the WRL.
When taking forward NDAs or major projects, the Government will consider the economic benefits in the related transport planning if it generates a large amount of traffic demand. When implementing individual projects, the responsible department will, in response to the findings in the traffic impact assessment reports submitted at various planning and design stages of the project, formulate and implement improvement and mitigation measures in a timely manner to meet the transport demand and development needs.
Taking into account the future new development plans for North West and North New Territories as well as Lantau, we will examine the feasibility and the desirability of new transport infrastructure (including railways and roads) or upgrading/improvement works to the existing ones for meeting the additional transport demand. Throughout the process, we shall make reference to the latest planning parameters, look into the actual traffic condition and listen to the views of local residents and experts.
While it is the Government's policy to use railways as the backbone of our passenger transport system, we also strive to build a diversified public transport system under which complementarity of various public transport modes could be enhanced so that the public will be provided with different choices. We will closely observe the development of the NWNT and the trend of its transport demand, watch over the utilization of the WRL and various bus and minibus routes, implement road improvement works and traffic management measures under individual circumstances, and tie in with the 2818 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
operation of the railway network and other public transport services, with a view to relieving the pressure on the WRL and meeting the overall transport demand of the NWNT.
Annex 1
Property Development Projects along West Rail Line
Planned Property development projects population Estimated year Year of tender along West Rail Line intake of intake (approx.) (1) Private housing development Projects successfully tendered Tsuen Wan 5 (Cityside) of 2 700 2011-2012 2018 Tsuen Wan West Station Tsuen Wan 5 (Bayside) of 6 900 2012-2013 2018 Tsuen Wan West Station Long Ping Station (North) 2 400 2012-2013 2018 Tsuen Wan 6 of Tsuen Wan 2 700 2012-2013 2018 West Station Long Ping Station (South) 2 000 2013-2014 2019 Projects under planning Yuen Long Station 4 800 to be confirmed to be confirmed Kam Sheung Road Station and Pat Heung Maintenance 21 400 to be confirmed to be confirmed Centre (2) Public housing development Tin Shui Wai Station 7 700 to be confirmed to be confirmed
Source: MTRCL/Housing Department
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2819
Annex 2
Preliminary Recommendations of Studies/Land Use Reviews for Yuen Long and Tuen Mun
Estimated Estimated year Planned number of Estimated of completion population Studies/Reviews residential year of of entire intake flats earliest intake development (approx.) (approx.) project Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area Planning 60 000 175 000 2024 2034 and Engineering Study Land Use Review for 33 700 92 800 2022 After 2022 Kam Tin South and Pat Heung Planning and Engineering Study for Housing Sites 26 100 78 000 2025 After 2025 in Yuen Long South ― Investigation
Notes:
(1) The tabulated figures are only preliminary results, subject to further studies and reviews.
(2) Some residential sites recommended in the Land Use Review for Kam Tin South and Pat Heung have already included two property development projects, that is, West Rail Kam Sheung Road Station and Pat Heung Maintenance Centre, as well as part of the 14 sites in Yuen Long which have been identified to have potential for public and private housing development. Therefore, corresponding adjustments have to be made in future estimation of the total additional population of Yuen Long in order to avoid double-counting.
Source: Development Bureau
2820 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary definitely knows how to do magic. Although the WRL has already reached its maximum carrying capacity of 99% during peak hours, its carrying capacity is somehow expected to drop to 90% after linking up with the SCL. Secretary, do you think that the population will cease to grow?
Not only are members of the public concerned about the shortage of housing, but they are equally concerned about the shortage of transport facilities, after the housing shortage is solved. Transport problems are the main cause of public objection to quite a number of development projects implemented by the Government in recent years. New Territories West is a case in point. According to the reply given by the Government just now, the existing sites available in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun alone can already provide housing for 220 000 people. Coupled with the 350 000 people to be accommodated in Hung Shui Kiu, Kam Tin South and Yuen Long South, population growth is expected to reach 500 000 in total. How can the Government do justice to the residents in New Territories West because it failed to put forward an alternative option in rejecting a Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan Line? Has the Government reneged on its original idea of having one single Policy Bureau to deal with transport and housing affairs? What can be done if there is a lack of co-ordination among the departments responsible for dealing with these two types of affairs? Should transport and housing affairs be dealt with separately by two Policy Bureaux in future? How can the Secretary do justice to the residents in New Territories West?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, we understand that when there is an increase in housing demand, ancillary transport facilities should be increased accordingly. Regarding the development of New Territories West and the NWNT, we can see a constant rise in the demand for housing units and land there. We can also see and are aware of the importance of ancillary transport facilities. Although the planning for Hung Shui Kiu has yet to be finalized, according to current planning, its population is not expected to rise until 2024 at the earliest. In other words, there will be no significant population growth until after 2024.
In the coming two years, we can see that the WRL will increase the number of train compartments to tie in with the SCL works, for the purpose of alleviating traffic congestion after 2016. We admit that transport demand will be generated LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2821 in tandem with the commencement of major local development projects in 2024. Besides considering enhancing the service frequency of the WRL, we will also pay attention to other modes of public transport and work out solutions to, inter alia, satisfy the road transport demand at the district level. The Government's decision not to construct the Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan Line does not mean that other methods will be abandoned, too.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. Since he did not propose any alternative option in rejecting the Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan Line, what should be done now to resolve the problem? Can the Secretary propose an alternative option?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, I did not hear you raise a question on this just now, so please wait for another turn to raise the question.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): President, just now, the Secretary mentioned in the main reply that the loading of the WRL reached 99% during peak hours in the morning in 2013. In addition, he mentioned some short-term measures of operating eight extra train services from 7.30 pm to 12.00 am on Fridays and Saturdays. Why did the Secretary mention enhancing the service frequency of the WRL in the evening without mentioning doing the same in the morning? Furthermore, does it mean that the Government will consider enhancing the service frequency only when the loading has reached 100%? Or will it consider enhancing the frequency even when the loading is lower?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as regards ways to improve its service to meet the transport demand of the public, the MTRCL will, on the one hand, consider their demand and travelling time and, on the other, some objective conditions, such as whether or not additional signalling systems can be installed on the rail sections where the 2822 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 service frequency will be enhanced. Insofar as the present situation is concerned, we can see that the WRL can carry more passengers under the six ppsm calculation. Certainly, if passengers want a more comfortable riding experience, that is, four ppsm, they might need to take the next train. They may make their own choice. Certainly, we have to address the problem should this situation persist. Therefore, one of the good opportunities we can see is an increase in the number of train cars upon the commissioning of the new trains of the SCL in 2016 from seven to eight, which will undoubtedly provide relief.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): President, the question raised by me just now was actually …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): Does it mean that no consideration will be given to enhancing the frequency until the loading has reached 100%?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, we do not have a hard and fast indicator, but we will keep in view the development of the situation. Actually, the 100% loading, so to speak, is calculated at four ppsm. Judging from Hong Kong's experience, however, the MTRCL has used six ppsm as the basis for calculation over a considerable period of time. If this ratio is used, the loading is actually very far from 100%.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, Members have repeatedly pointed out that if the standard of four ppsm is used as the basis for calculation, the WRL has already reached its capacity. Second, we have learnt that upon the commissioning of its EWC, the SCL will see an increase of 14% in its carrying capacity. President, according to my calculation, an increase of 14% during peak hours would mean an additional 6 000 passengers. Moreover, the period between 2022 and 2024 will see the successive completion of the Tuen Mun South Extension and the Northern Link, as well as an additional population of 140 000 in Hung Shui Kiu. If we merely focus on the additional population in Hung Shui LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2823
Kiu ― fortunately, I had gained some experience in railways ― each 100 000 people would mean that 1 000 people would use railway services during peak hours. In other words, a population of 140 000 would mean 14 000 passengers, which is far beyond the additional capacity of 6 000 upon the commissioning of the SCL. In other words, the standard for the SCL will have to be set at seven ppsm in 2024, which means that we might be unable to squeeze into the train compartments by then.
Secretary, the question I wish to ask today is very simple. I was told by the railway experts consulted by me that, even if the relevant study commenced today, it would still take 15 years before the completion of the fifth cross-harbour railway in Hong Kong to link up Hong Kong Island West with the artificial islands in the central waters to reach Lantau to link with the WRL via Gold Coast. In other words, even if the study commenced today, this ticking time bomb could still not be diffused until 2030. May I ask the Secretary when such a study will commence?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, regarding the situation of railways in the NWNT pointed out by Mr TIEN just now, we are actually well aware of the relevant situation, too. We can see that some additional points in Tuen Mun, such as the Tuen Mun South Extension and the new Hung Shui Kiu Station, will definitely bring an increase in railway patronage. Nevertheless, this will not happen until after 2022 and 2024. Currently, we are considering ways to enhance the loading of railways or roads in New Territories West, that is, Tuen Mun or Yuen Long, so as to resolve the long-term and overall transport problems there.
As regards the possibility of undertaking a relevant study on the new rail line, we are considering whether or not holistic consideration can be given to the planning of the North Lantau development project. However, we have yet to have a timetable on deciding when the relevant work can commence.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, regarding the question raised by Mr CHAN Han-pan, we find it really amazing that the Government will be able to lower the loading of the WRL from 99% to 90% upon the commissioning of the SCL. In this connection, may I raise a supplementary question regarding the 2824 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 two sets of figures provided by the Government, that is, whether the housing production and population growth rates in New Territories West are directly proportional to the upper limit on the increase in the loading of the WRL? If the ratio cannot catch up with the loading of the WRL, what follow-up proposal will the Government put forward following the rejection of the Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan Line in response to the final remarks made by the Secretary that "the WRL will reach its maximum capacity and therefore, we need to plan early. The Government shall monitor the increase in transport demand of the WRL and to further look into the possibility of …". Can the Government inform Hong Kong people of the direction to be taken?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I have mentioned in several parts of the main reply that we have actually taken note of the traffic problems in New Territories West. Actually, a significant population growth will not become obvious in New Territories West until after 2022. Hence, at the present stage, we are planning what can be done in roads or ancillary transport facilities on other fronts, in addition to railways. We will also attach particular importance to local development. In the coming period, we will study what other methods can be used. Besides expert views, we will also heed the views of the local residents regarding this.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I can only say that the Secretary is really perfunctory in giving the reply. According to the Secretary, "the consultant has estimated that the crowdedness of the WRL should have been relieved by 2031". In the second paragraph, he pointed out again that "it is estimated that the loading of the EWC along its busiest section will be increased". Did the Secretary mean that the congestion would be eased or the loading would be increased? More interestingly, he mentioned in the next paragraph that "the WRL will reach its maximum capacity one day … further look into the possibility of improving the service frequency of the WRL". How can the frequency of the WRL be enhanced if it has already reached its capacity? I hope the Secretary can stop adopting such a slapdash attitude, for he has mentioned in the main reply that "the WRL will reach its maximum capacity one day". May I ask him, as a Bureau Director, to tell us responsibly whether or not any studies have been undertaken to determine, in the long run, when the WRL will reach its capacity and what plans the authorities concerned have to address the situation of the WRL reaching its capacity one day?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2825
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, with regard to the supplementary question raised by Miss MAK, the development or loading of railways can actually be divided into different stages. Depending on the criterion adopted for calculation purposes, whether it is four ppsm or six ppsm, the data provided by us were obtained in 2013. At the present stage, passengers will indeed find it overcrowded if the standard of four ppsm is used as the basis for calculation. Nevertheless, we can see conditions and opportunities for improvement from the data, and that is, the train cars of the WRL will be increased accordingly to tie in with the development of the SCL. Hence, the crowdedness will then be eased. Of course, if massive residential development is carried out in Tuen Mun, including Hung Shui Kiu and areas around the Tuen Mun South Extension, thereby causing the carrying capacity of the WRL in Tuen Mun to increase, the crowdedness or carrying capacity of the WRL might also increase accordingly, and problems might emerge by then. Hence, we are talking about adopting different measures at different stages. Members' present concern might be the provision of ancillary transport facilities, including railways and roads, upon the completion of major development areas. This is precisely the task being undertaken by the Transport and Housing Bureau now. In addition, preparations and planning are required on this front.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I asked the Government in my supplementary question just now whether it had really undertaken any studies and when the WRL would reach capacity because this was what the Government said in its reply. So, when will the WRL reach capacity? And what efforts has the Government made?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you inform Members of the timetable, if any?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): According to our estimation, should there be a significant increase in the population of Hung Shui Kiu and all its residents rely solely on the WRL after moving into the area, serious crowdedness might indeed be resulted. If four ppsm is used as the basis for calculation, the WRL is, of course, very likely to reach capacity.
2826 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent nearly 23 minutes on this question. Third question.
Employers' Provision of Documentary Proofs of Work Experience of Employees and Former Employees
3. IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, at present, the registration requirements for quite a number of professions (for example, registered electrical workers) include work experience in the relevant industries. Recently, an electrical worker has asked for my assistance, saying that his former employer refused to provide him with documentary proofs of his electrical work experience, rendering his application for registration unsuccessful. On the other hand, in accordance with the Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL) mechanism under the Qualifications Framework (QF), an RPL applicant may obtain a statement of attainment at QF Levels 1 to 3 simply by producing documentary proofs of years of service and work experience in the relevant industries verified by an assessment agency without the need to undergo any assessment. It is learnt that at present, there is no statutory requirement for employers to provide documentary proofs of work experience upon the requests of employees or former employees. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) in each of the past five years, of the numbers of requests for assistance and complaints received by the authorities in relation to employers' alleged refusal to provide documentary proofs of work experience upon the requests of employees or former employees;
(2) given that at present, there is no statutory requirement for employers to provide employees or former employees with documentary proofs of work experience, whether the authorities have assessed the difficulties faced by RPL applicants in obtaining such documents; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(3) whether the authorities will review the existing legislation to require employers to provide documentary proofs of work experience upon reasonable requests of their employees or former employees, so as to perfect the relevant registration system and the RPL mechanism; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2827
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, the Government launched the QF in 2008 with a view to encouraging lifelong learning and enhancing the competitiveness of the workforce in Hong Kong. The RPL mechanism is established under the QF to enable employees of various backgrounds to receive formal recognition of the knowledge, skills and experience already acquired. At present, the RPL mechanism has been implemented in ten industries, namely Watch & Clock, Printing & Publishing, Hairdressing, Property Management, Automotive, Jewellery, Logistics, Chinese Catering, Beauty and Retail. Regarding the various parts of the question, having consulted the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (EMSD) which regulates the registration of electrical workers in accordance with the Electricity Ordinance (Cap. 406), my reply is as follows:
(1) According to the EMSD, the Electricity Ordinance does not contain explicit requirement for "proof of employment" issued by employers. In the past five years, the Department has only received two cases of application for registration as registered electrical worker (REW) involving requests for assistance as the applicants were unable to obtain documentary proof of work experience from their employers. The two applicants were eventually approved to become REWs.
On the other hand, for the RPL mechanism under the QF, the Education Bureau has also received no such requests for assistance or complaints in the past five years.
(2) Under the prevailing arrangements, besides documentary proofs of work experience issued by employers, other references (such as attestation of jobs issued by registered labour unions or associations, tax demand notes or business registration certificates for the self-employed) would also be considered by the assessment agency under the RPL mechanism as proofs of work experience.
Also, to apply for RPL, employees who are unable to produce documentary proofs of work experience may opt to submit other supporting documents in the form of an individual portfolio, such as, among others, curriculum vitae and their entries for competitions, and subject themselves to assessment test.
2828 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
(3) Regarding the Electricity Ordinance, the EMSD considers that there is no practical need to amend the regulation relating to the application for registration as REW.
Separately, application for RPL is on a voluntary basis. As mentioned before, the assessment agency has accepted other references in cases where employees are unable to produce documentary proofs of work experience issued by their employers for various reasons as well as to provide the alternative of individual portfolio for applicants to obtain RPL. We are of the view that the prevailing arrangements have put in place due flexibility.
Meanwhile, the Industry Training Advisory Committees established under the QF promote RPL from time to time among employers, trade associations, labour unions and practitioners in relevant sectors, which in turn encourage employers to assist their employees in applying for RPL.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, I believe when employees ask their employers or former employers for proofs of work experience, even if they encounter some problems, they may not necessarily seek help from government departments or lodge a complaint. Therefore, I am glad to hear the Secretary say that a flexible approach will be adopted to handle the issue of RPL of applicants.
However, the Secretary mentioned in part (1) of the main reply that "According to the EMSD, the Electricity Ordinance does not contain explicit requirement for 'proof of employment' issued by employers." This refers to application for registration as REW. But according to cases seeking assistance received by me and according to information on the website of the EMSD, which has a specimen of the form containing information submitted by a REW to his employer for proof of work experience ― I have such a form at hand, it is clearly stated that "All documentary proof should be issued in company letterhead and signed by an 'Authorized person' of the Registered Electrical Contractor with company chop." In such circumstances, I would think that the policy which the Secretary has in mind may have a shortfall compared to the administrative details of the department concerned. May I ask the Secretary if he will look into that shortfall and try to make efforts to co-ordinate and achieve uniformity?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2829
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): According to the sample form for information required for documentary proof provided by employer for application for registration as electrical worker issued by the EMSD, the aim is to provide applicants with a commonly acceptable form to prove an applicant's work experience. With reference to these special cases, if an applicant cannot obtain this kind of proof of work experience from the employer, the EMSD can take the initiative to arrange for an appointment or liaise with the person-in-charge of the company concerned or the REW responsible for supervising the applicant. This is to know more about the work experience of the applicant while working in the company concerned. When such proof is considered sufficient, approval may be given to the applicant as REW.
President, I wish to emphasize again that our aim is to hopefully give people a clear direction for training and further studies to go forward. And we hope that all workers will have eligible qualifications which will facilitate their provision of service to society. With this in mind, there have only been two cases during the past five years in which difficulties were encountered. And as I have said in the main reply, the applicants concerned have been given an approval.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary said just now that in the past five years, the EMSD has only received two cases of application for registration as REW involving requests for assistance as the applicants were unable to obtain documentary proof of work experience from their employers. The two applicants were eventually approved to become REWs. Of course, I have no idea as to what papers are used by the applicants in the end to obtain approval.
May I ask whether the Government will ask the EMSD to follow the RPL mechanism under the QF that apart from proof from employers, proof from labour unions and associations is also acceptable so that these applicants can be registered?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): I wish to thank Mr POON for his question. As I have mentioned, the assessment agencies concerned have close contact with the Qualifications Framework Secretariat. We have pointed out that apart from information provided by the employer, there can be other kinds of proof. The new regulations of 1 June 2013 state that other documents 2830 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 of personal qualifications can be submitted for the purpose of serving as different references in order to obtain proof in this regard. So there is close co-operation between the two and we will engage in publicity efforts with the organizations and parties concerned.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): If the QF is to be effectively implemented, I am sure these letters proving work experience are very important to employees. I have this question. Apart from the REWs mentioned in the main question, if the ordinary wage earners are to obtain this kind of proof of qualifications, they have to approach government departments or beg their employers to give them these letters, but this will affect these employees as they wish to change jobs because their bosses may not want them to change jobs and leave the company.
In this connection, may I ask how in the future employees can be protected by the law and get the proof of work experience to which they are entitled?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): The most important point is that there is no special rule specifying documents of which type or nature can be used as a tool of assessment. On this major premise, apart from the part just mentioned, I have also talked about the fact that the relevant Industry Training Advisory Committees do have a consensus such that under the prevailing mechanism, registered labour unions or associations or professional bodies and even information provided in the individual curriculum vitae can all be used as reference. Thus there is considerable flexibility in the current system.
As I said just now, the main aim is to have a clear standard so that a balance can be struck in the provision of service and advancement of qualifications.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I was asking about protection in law but the Secretary has not talked about such contents in law.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
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SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, as I mentioned earlier, as seen from past experience, the prevailing arrangements can meet the requirements of specific cases. Therefore, with this in mind, we do not see any special need to make revisions at this moment.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, actually this kind of documentary proof of work experience or testimonial is in itself proof of employment relationship. However, it is unfortunate that only the Secretary for Education is here to give replies and the Secretary for Labour and Welfare does not attend this meeting. In this connection, I wish to raise a supplementary question. Could the Secretary for Education bring this supplementary question back and study it with the Labour and Welfare Bureau to see if there is any need to amend the law and specify in the employment relationship that an employer shall provide documentary proof such as proof of work experience, proof of qualifications or testimonials to his former employees or those about to terminate employment so that the employees can make a choice in their career easier or switch to other jobs.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, I am grateful to the Member for his question. I will be happy to liaise with the Secretary for Labour and Welfare on this suggestion.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, it has been many years since the QF came into operation and some 10 to 20 industries have joined it. May I ask the Secretary if any attempt has been made to understand what actual benefits in employment there are for employees from various industries who have taken part in the QF and gained qualifications thereafter?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, I wish to thank the Member for his question. In retrospect, from the year 2008 to the present, 20 Industry Training Advisory Committees have been set up and development in this regard is continuous and it varies according to the extent of maturity in the industries concerned. Blueprints on qualifications and competency like RPL are now available. There are special features regarding each and every industry. 2832 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Yesterday I attended a graduation ceremony in the beauty care industry. I could see that the industry has been improving itself in the level of qualifications of both the practitioners and instructors. And I can say that there is a close relationship and communication between the practitioners and the industry to which they belong. Given this situation and the full support from the business sector, I consider that since there are suitable employees with skills, the employment situation in this industry is not bad at all. However, should there be any cases presenting actual problems in this regard, we will be happy to contact the persons involved through our offices or the industries concerned.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I wish to thank the Secretary for Education for giving a positive answer to my supplementary question and asserting that he will study with the Secretary for Labour and Welfare whether the law should be amended or whether legislation should be enacted to protect employees' rights.
Now I wish to ask this question. Does the Secretary for Education know at this moment, apart from electrical workers, the number of complaints from workers of other trades who have lodged complaints with the authorities because they cannot obtain proof of work experience or testimonials from their employers? If the Secretary for Education cannot give a reply to this question ― I reckon that he cannot ― then would he follow this up with the Secretary for Labour and Welfare and commence collecting data on complaints in this regard?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, I wish to thank the Member for his question. The Labour Department does not have any figure on employees seeking help or lodging complaints regarding their being refused by their employers or former employers in their request for provision of proof of work experience.
The next thing which is also very important is that the relationship between the employees and their employers as well as the types of work involved and job nature, and so on, may be very broad in scope and the details and forms may also differ. All these may not be presented in any document. I think Members may note this when they look at certain types of work. So I wish to repeat that as far LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2833 as we know and judging from our experience, the current procedures are very smooth. As I have just undertaken, as regards legislation, I will convey the views of Members to the Labour and Welfare Bureau.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I wish to thank the Secretary again for his response to my first supplementary question. However, the Secretary has not answered my part on figures on employees seeking assistance and lodging complaints. Will he commence efforts to collect the relevant data together with the Labour and Welfare Bureau?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Would Members please note that it is the Administration which decides on the particular public officer who attends the Council meeting and takes questions. When a public officer prepares a reply, he will refer to relevant information from the departments concerned. Secretary, would you give a reply to Mr WONG Kwok-hing's question?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, I have just repeated that and I do not have anything to add.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, since there is no law at present to require employers to provide as a must documentary proof of work experience at the request of their employees or former employees, whether the authorities in implementing a relevant industry registration system and a qualifications accreditation mechanism have done anything to seek co-operation from the relevant industry body or association such that an integrated system can be set up to offer help as appropriate to people who come across difficulties in registration and recognition of qualifications regarding their industries? If yes, what is the situation?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, I wish to thank the Member for his supplementary question. According to information from the EMSD, since various administrative measures are in place to assist employees in obtaining proof of work experience and that such measures are proven, it is the view of the EMSD that it has no plan to put in place another new mechanism.
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With respect to the QF, its implementation including the RPL mechanism is industry-led. Therefore, before each participating industry launches a RPL mechanism, it will forge an agreement with the relevant Industry Training Advisory Committee and that agreement would include the acceptance of documentary proofs of work experience issued by relevant registered labour unions or associations and professional bodies.
As a matter of fact, the composition of Industry Training Advisory Committees has already included relevant stakeholders from the industries concerned, such as employers, labour unions, associations, professional bodies, and so on. Therefore, when applicants encounter any difficulty in seeking to obtain proofs of work experience from their employers, they can liaise with their labour unions, associations and professional bodies and request proofs of work experience.
In addition, we will work through the QF Secretariat and assessment agencies to seek co-operation with the industries and launch publicity efforts among various stakeholders on the background of the RPL mechanism, application procedures, assessment and such like details. It is hoped that employers, labour unions and associations, professional bodies, and so on, will be encouraged to lend their support to practitioners taking part in the RPL mechanism.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question.
Shanghai-Hong Kong Stock Connect
4. MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the Shanghai-Hong Kong Stock Connect (S-HK SC), implemented since the 17th of last month, has widened the investment channels between Shanghai and Hong Kong. The Government envisages that driven by S-HK SC, the capital markets of the two places will gradually move towards integration, enabling the finance industry of Hong Kong to expand and enhancing Hong Kong's competitiveness, thereby transforming Hong Kong into a premier gateway for international capital to make investments on the Mainland. Investors may directly invest, through the S-HK SC platform, in specified types of stocks listed in Shanghai and Hong Kong. Besides, the abolition of the daily exchange limit of Renminbi imposed on Hong LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2835
Kong people also facilitates financial transactions. Nonetheless, since the launch of S-HK SC, utilization of the investment quotas is well below market expectations, and S-HK SC has failed to boost the prices of Hong Kong stocks substantially, with investors giving lukewarm response to southbound investments on Hong Kong stocks under the Southbound Trading Link in particular. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) as some members of the securities industry have pointed out that utilization of the quotas in the Southbound Trading Link has lagged far behind that in the Northbound Trading Link in the first week since the launch of S-HK SC because major Mainland institutional investors including public funds and insurance companies, and so on, are still waiting for the publication of relevant investment guidelines by regulatory organizations, whether the authorities have examined why such investors are not yet ready given that S-HK SC was in the pipeline for a long time; whether the authorities have, in collaboration with the relevant Mainland authorities, formulated any mechanism to jointly review the specific impacts of S-HK SC on the securities markets in the two places;
(2) whether the authorities have assessed if S-HK SC will lead to the situation of "southern capital being channelled to the north", which means that a large amount of money originally invested in Hong Kong stocks is transferred to invest in Shanghai stocks; if they have assessed, of the outcome; whether the authorities will introduce more policies to attract capital inflow to invest in Hong Kong stocks, such as further co-operation with the relevant Mainland departments to enable more Mainland institutional investors to get familiar with the securities market in Hong Kong, as well as encourage and facilitate these investors to invest in Hong Kong stocks; and
(3) as there are differences in the law and regulations governing the securities markets in Shanghai and Hong Kong, whether the authorities will provide assistance to Hong Kong investors who have encountered legal problems or disputes when making investments in Mainland stocks; if they will, from which government department(s) the investors may seek assistance; how the authorities will tackle the issues concerned so as to protect small investors and further enhance the connectivity between the securities markets in Shanghai 2836 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
and Hong Kong; of the measures to be put in place in future to help investors in the two places to understand the respective law and regulations governing the securities markets in the two places?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(1) and (2)
It is generally the case that investors, in particular institutional investors, necessarily take a cautious approach when entering a new market. Institutional investors may need to conduct due diligence and risk assessment before they will consider participating in a new market. Some institutional investors (especially investment funds) may also need to change constitutional documents to allow them to invest in a new market. Besides, the Mainland and Hong Kong stock markets have rather different structures in terms of investor profiles, regulatory requirements as well as trading and clearing arrangements. Some Mainland institutional investors may need to obtain regulatory approval before they will consider participating in a new market.
The exchanges in the two markets have done a lot of promotional work before the launch of the Shanghai-Hong Kong Stock Connect (Stock Connect), and will continue with such work. They will also continue to maintain close liaison with market participants and help them understand and participate in each other's market.
The Stock Connect is a pilot programme just launched recently, and it has been implemented for a month or so. The relevant promotional work will continue. We hope that investors will gradually be familiar with this mechanism. It is too soon to do an assessment on the trading volume at this stage. In fact, the investment quota under the Stock Connect is imposed as a risk management tool for the market, not as a volume target or even an indicator. The very priority at the present stage is to ensure the smooth operation of the Stock Connect and the effective implementation of risk management and regulatory measures. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2837
Overall speaking, the Stock Connect is operating smoothly. The Administration, regulators and the exchange in Hong Kong will continue to collaborate with their Mainland counterparts in monitoring the development of the Stock Connect, and will communicate with market participants closely to assess the state of implementation.
(3) As regards the question on how to handle information requests from investors, the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) and the China Securities Regulatory Commission (CSRC) have established an arrangement for handling and referring requests from investors under the Stock Connect.
Under the arrangement, requests from Hong Kong and overseas investors investing in Mainland stocks will be treated at par as Mainland investors. Investors under the Northbound Trading Link can file complaints in respect of their disputes directly with the CSRC, the Shanghai Stock Exchange, the eligible Shanghai listed company or the trading and clearing service providers for Shanghai stocks. In accordance with the principle of home supervisor regulation, requests from Mainland, Hong Kong and overseas investors on issues within the CSRC's jurisdiction will be handled by the CSRC in accordance with the relevant Mainland laws and regulations.
Hong Kong and overseas investors can also raise the above requests with the SFC, which will refer such requests to the CSRC for further handling.
Regarding investor education, the Hong Kong's Investor Education Centre (IEC) is responsible for education of Northbound Hong Kong and overseas investors while the Mainland's Investor Protection Bureau targets Southbound Mainland investors.
These education initiatives aim to help investors understand this pilot programme before entering a different market and to encourage them to get well prepared and make informed investment decisions. The education initiative has focused on key issues from the perspective of retail investors, in particular the different rules and regulations 2838 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
and the different trading and settlement arrangements between Hong Kong and the Mainland, as well as the risks involved in cross-boundary investment. The IEC also reminds the public to be aware of the difference in investor protection rules, taxation and fees and charges between the two markets.
Both before and after the launch of the Stock Connect, the IEC has conducted investor education work through various channels and means, including publications, websites, seminars, media interviews and columns as well as programs and education video on television and radio, and we will continue to carry out such work.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the market has actually talked about the Stock Connect for a long time and even spent years discussing it. The Secretary said earlier that a lot of promotional work had been conducted before its launch but despite so much work done and everybody anticipating it, I do not understand why some investors are saying that the papers relating to changes in their constitutions have not yet been ready and that they even have not yet obtained the approval of the regulatory authorities in the Mainland.
Of course, the Secretary may say that this happened only in some cases but while we originally expected the quota utilization rate to probably reach 70% to 80%, the situation now has turned out to be just the opposite as only 20% to 30% of the quota has been used. This has given us the feeling and impression that the Stock Connect was launched before it was ready. Is that the case? Or, is it that the Chief Executive happened to be in the Mainland at the time and so, he must bring some gifts back to Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, concerning the quota, as I mentioned just now, it is neither a volume target nor an indicator. Certainly, there are speculations in the market that 70% or 80% of the quota would be used. In fact, the quota is mainly meant to be an indicator for risk management. In other words, it can tell us the daily trading volume and so, a quota utilization rate of 20% to 30% is actually healthy. As I mentioned earlier, it is indeed too soon to make an assessment of this trading volume and draw a conclusion one month after its launch.
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Let me add a brief point here. As regards public funds, in order for the existing fund products to participate in trading under the Southbound Trading Link, given that changes in the investment target and investment policy are involved, these funds are required to amend the fund contracts in accordance with the measures for fund management and obtain approval at a general meeting of fund holders before they can make investments under the current legal framework in the Mainland.
On the other hand, according to the stipulations in the Mainland, in order for fund products to participate in trading under the Southbound Trading Link, the relevant regulatory authorities are required to make amendments to the fund management measures, and as far as we understand it, they are currently working on this.
In respect of insurance funds, the current laws and regulations governing domestic and overseas investment with insurance funds do not support direct investment in Hong Kong stocks through Mainland securities firms under the Southbound Trading Link. To our understanding, the China Insurance Regulatory Commission is actively studying the interface issues under the relevant policies on the Southbound Trading Link. We hope that the this can be resolved early.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): President, I would like to ask a supplementary question from the angle of investments made by the so-called retail investors.
As we can see from the present situation, Hong Kong investors who initially made investments in the Mainland are all fund companies and many of them are even foreign fund companies which have a good understanding of the Mainland laws. However, it is impossible for local retail investors to understand the regulatory laws in the Mainland. In Hong Kong, there is the SFC regulating stock brokers in Hong Kong and this affords small investors protection. May I ask the Government when can investors in Hong Kong who buy stocks in the Mainland through the Northbound Trading Link enjoy the same protection as that available now in Hong Kong? It is because there is quite a 2840 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 large gap between the two places in terms of protection, and it is going to take a very long time for the two places to be aligned. How can this make retail investors in Hong Kong invest in the Mainland stock market through the Northbound Trading Link?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, concerning the protection for retail investors or investors in Hong Kong, we have actually provided very detailed information by way of questions and answers on the website of the IEC, which enables Hong Kong investors to understand the differences in the laws, rules and regulations, charges and protection for investors in the Mainland. Therefore, this website has, in fact, provided very detailed information.
As I mentioned earlier, we will provide information to investors in Hong Kong through various newspapers and organizing talks. Insofar as Hong Kong investors are concerned, disregarding whether they are retail investors or not, other than understanding the relevant systems when they invest in the Mainland market, they also need to understand the 500-odd companies in the Mainland, which are the targets of their investment. Therefore, from their recent investment, we can see that they have mostly invested in financial institutions which are larger in scale and more well-known. In this connection, the Hong Kong Exchange and Clearing Limited (HKEx) should carry out more promotional work and organize more roadshows to enable Hong Kong investors to understand the operation of companies in the two places and also the targets of their investment.
Therefore, in respect of the system and targets of investment, we will continue to step up work in these areas, so that the HKEx can carry out more promotional work to enable Hong Kong investors to know more about their targets of investments.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TIEN, has your supplementary question not been answered?
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MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. My question is: Will the regulations in Hong Kong align with those in the Mainland? If not, apart from understanding the regulations in Hong Kong, Hong Kong retail investors must also have a good idea about the regulations in the Mainland or else it would be very difficult for them to make investments. Will the relevant regulations align with each other?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): In fact, the launch of the Stock Connect does not aim to facilitate alignment between the two markets. Alignment of the two markets has been considered and raised for discussion before, but this is a direction that we may move in when an opportunity arises. That said, the main objective of the Stock Connect is to achieve connectivity for the two markets. President, the Honourable Member has raised concerns about the protection for investors earlier on. In fact, our SFC and the CSRC have signed a Memorandum of Understanding which particularly mentioned ways for protecting investors, the handling of complaints or cross-boundary arrangements, including ways for sharing information and monitoring the operation of the market. Therefore, we will carry out as much work as possible in various areas in the market in order to fill the gaps.
Having said that, insofar as the future market is concerned, some people have suggested a myriad of practices in respect of, say, the trading hours, lunch hour, settlement period, such as "T+0", "T+1", and so on, and we have also raised these matters for discussion. However, as the Mainland has their own system, during the discussion, we, therefore, considered that with regard to these issues, we will, in the light of future developments and when an opportunity arises, seek ways to promote alignment between the two places.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, since the launch of the Stock Connect, I would say that it has missed the target right from the start as the utilization of the investment quota is obviously lower than that expected, and there is no denying that the result has been poor. President, as I have repeatedly heard from the Financial Secretary and as also stressed by the Secretary today, it is imperative for the Stock Connect to be launched smoothly and with stability but I have not heard any practical or specific measure to boost the utilization of the quota under the Stock Connect and in particular, to facilitate the channelling of northern capital to the south. If the Government only put 2842 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 emphasis on stability and smooth operation and expected that the low trading volume can be resolved over time, I think it is handling a finance issue with the mentality of trying its luck and this, I think, is most worrisome indeed.
President, my supplementary question is this: Does the Government have any specific performance indicators and timetable to assess the effectiveness of the Stock Connect? Does it have any specific ways for implementation or has it carried out any work to address the situation where the utilization of quota is so low and particularly, to find ways to achieve the goal of "channelling northern capital to the south"? I hope that the Secretary can put forward specific ways to increase the utilization of the quota in his reply later, rather than only stressing the need for more liaison and communication, because such promotional work should be implemented at the preparatory stage, not now.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Let me state once again that for these two quotas, namely, the daily quota of $1.3 billion for "northern capital" and $10.5 billion for "southern capital" that we set at the outset, they are actually no indicators. We only hope to set a daily quota for reference by the queuing system in operation. Therefore, although we have seen that 20% to 30% of the $1.3 billion quota was used after the launch of the Stock Connect, or the percentage of the quota used would certainly be higher if we set a lower quota, this is actually not an indicator. Insofar as the market structure is concerned, the Mainland market has more retail investors whereas the Hong Kong or overseas market has more institutional investors. As we can see, retail investors need to make a lot of effort in order to understand a new market. Of course, when we discuss this with the relevant Mainland authorities, we understand that in the Mainland, investors have to meet a capital requirement of having RMB 500,000 yuan in their accounts in order to make investments, and concerning their view of our system, some people consider that the structure of the Hong Kong stock market is different from their understanding or expectation, for instance, in respect of penny stocks or other issues …
(Dr LAM Tai-fai stood up)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, what is your point?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2843
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, I think the Secretary has deliberately misunderstood my supplementary question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, please repeat your supplementary question.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): My question is very clear, and Secretary, do not misunderstand my question on purpose. I asked the Government whether it has any performance indicators, not the target of $1.3 billion or $1.2 billion. My question is: Regarding this measure of the Stock Connect, does the Government have any performance indicators and timetable to assess the implementation of the Stock Connect? I am referring to indicators for gauging its effectiveness and timetable, not the numerical target of $1.3 billion that you were talking about. You must not misunderstand my question on purpose. People who do not know about stocks could be misled by you.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, please answer the question on performance indicators.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I thought I was answering the Member's question just now. Let me make it clear again that the Government's performance indicator, as I said in the main reply earlier on, means smooth operation in risk management and implementation, and that is our performance indicator. We do not have a quantified indicator to determine that a certain percentage or a trading volume of how many billions of dollar is considered effective. We do not have such an indicator.
Earlier on, the Honourable Member asked in part (2) of the main question whether we have any specific measures to increase trading. As I explained in my reply, given that eligible investors in the Mainland market and their investment profile are different from those in the Hong Kong market, while it is necessary for them to understand our market, we also have to conduct a review to find out what improvement measures can be taken now as operation is smooth in risk management, in order for more "northern capital" to be channelled to Hong Kong or for the trading volume to increase. But we do not have any quantified indicator; nor do we have any performance indicator.
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DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): The Secretary replied just now that there is no performance indictor but he did not answer whether there is a timetable for assessing the implementation of the Stock Connect.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): We will continuously review the operation of the Stock Connect. Just now I did not mean that there is no performance indicator. President, our performance indicator is that the operation is smooth and the risk control measures are fine. I do not mean that there is no performance indicator. When I said that we do not have any performance indicator, I meant we do not have a quantified performance indicator.
As for the review, the performance indicator as we referred to just now applies to the system, the framework, and risk control measures, and we will certainly review these measures. With regard to the trading volume, although we do not have a quantified indicator, we will, when reviewing the operation, study under what circumstances greater facilitation can be provided to increase trading.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, after the launch of the Stock Connect, it is true that some people are worried that the objective of the Stock Connect of "channelling northern capital to the south" would turn out to be "channelling southern capital to the north". They are also worried that the capital originally invested in the Hong Kong stock market would turn to the A stocks, thus creating a negative impact on Hong Kong. But we in the industry are not at all worried about this, because the two markets have their respective characteristics and do not necessarily have a zero-sum relationship as we can see a trading volume exceeding $100 billion over the past few days.
However, I have heard many members of the industry criticize the Government for not doing enough to promote the Stock Connect and in particular, for remaining indifferent to encouraging active participation from the participants. Let us not talk about other problems, and all I would like to say is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2845 that of the 400-odd small and medium securities firms, only 40 have participated in the Stock Connect, and from this we can tell whether the Government has done a good job or not …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please ask your supplementary question.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): … As such, may I ask the Government whether it has any plans to arrange for the Trade Development Council or the HKEx to lead trade organizations in organizing a large-scale roadshow in major Mainland cities, with a view to promoting this international securities market of Hong Kong to Mainland residents and hence giving them a better understanding of Hong Kong stocks? Second, will a request be put to the Mainland for abolition of the RMB 500,000 yuan capital limit and at the same time relaxation of the measure by extending the types of Hong Kong stocks available for investment to quality second- and third-liner stocks, instead of limiting to the 260 medium and large stocks under the current arrangement, in order to attract more southbound investment in Hong Kong stocks by Mainland investors?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): In respect of roadshows, we will certainly liaise with the HKEx and encourage them to organize more roadshows. As far as I understand it, they have already organized a lot of roadshows before and will continue to do so. We can see that the HKEx has done this not only in the Mainland but also overseas. We will encourage the HKEx to step up efforts in the relevant work.
Second, regarding the $500,000 capital requirement mentioned earlier, this requirement has come into effect for one month only. We will keep in view its operation before further reviewing it with the relevant authorities.
Third, regarding the types of investment products, this is actually a pilot programme implemented in a gradual and orderly manner. At present, we provide some 260 stocks for investment, and there is also a similar restriction in the Mainland. As regards second- and third-liner stocks, or exchange-traded funds or derivative products as suggested by some people, we will conduct a review at a later time, and we hope that these proposals can be introduced as soon 2846 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 as possible. We will first observe the trading operation under the existing pilot programme and then further study in what areas this measure can be extended.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 23 minutes on this question. Fifth question.
Law-enforcement Personnel from Outside Hong Kong Monitoring Activities of Hong Kong Residents
5. MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that since the 7th of last month, nine Hong Kong residents with no criminal records either in Hong Kong or on the Mainland have been refused entry one after another by Mainland border officials when they headed for the Mainland. These residents include a non-core member of Scholarism, a volunteer of Scholarism who is also an intern assistant to a Legislative Council Member, three university student union members or university students having participated in the "Umbrella Movement" (the Movement), a stewardess-on-duty who is allegedly a supporter of the Movement, and three representatives of the Hong Kong Federation of Students (HKFS) who intended to go to Beijing on the 15th of last month. The reasons given for refusing their entry include their participation in activities which violated national security or affected national diplomacy, as well as "contravention of the relevant rules". Some members of the public have expressed the concern that some law-enforcement personnel from outside Hong Kong have come to the territory to monitor the activities of members of the public, with a view to restricting the freedom of Hong Kong residents to travel to and from the Mainland. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether it has monitored the activities of various social movement organizations such as Scholarism and the HKFS as well as their members, and the activities of those members of the public who have participated in the Movement; whether it has kept a blacklist of social activists and forwarded such a blacklist to the Mainland authorities;
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2847
(2) of the existing legislation that protects members of the public from the monitoring of their activities by law-enforcement personnel from outside Hong Kong, and the channels through which members of the public may lodge complaints or seek assistance when they suspect that their activities have been monitored by law-enforcement personnel from outside Hong Kong, so as to protect their privacy; and
(3) whether the existing legislation has any requirement for law-enforcement personnel from outside Hong Kong to obtain the authorization by the relevant authorities for undertaking monitoring activities in Hong Kong; if there is such a requirement, whether the authorities instituted any prosecution in the past three years against law-enforcement personnel from outside Hong Kong who had undertaken monitoring activities in Hong Kong without authorization; if there is no such requirement, whether the authorities will consider making amendments to the Interception of Communications and Surveillance Ordinance (ICSO) (Cap. 589) to regulate such acts of monitoring; if they will not consider, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, Ms Cyd HO is concerned about the recent refusal of some Hong Kong residents' entry to the Mainland by Mainland border officials. I would stress that Hong Kong and the Mainland have their own immigration clearance policies and regimes under which the immigration departments of both sides implement their respective policies. Relevant law-enforcement authorities of the Mainland may, in accordance with the Mainland policies, determine the arrangements with respect to Mainland immigration matters. For some recent cases in which Hong Kong residents were denied entry to the Mainland, there are people holding the Administration responsible for providing a so-called "blacklist of social activists" to the Mainland authorities. I maintain that such accusations are totally unfounded, and are nothing more than malicious slander against the law-enforcement agencies, to which I would note with regret.
As we all know, over the past 60 days, there have been very extensive and highlighted local media reports of the Occupy Central or the Occupy Movement, together with wide coverage on the Internet and by overseas media. Presented 2848 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 lavishly with words and photos, those reports contain such personal data as names, identities and backgrounds of some protesters.
Besides, by means of current social networking platforms, any person may upload their own audios and videos onto the web for sharing of opinions, stances, acts, and so on. During the Occupy Central, there were also cases in which a group of people, while taking no heed of law and order, used the web media to indiscriminately incite others to commit unlawful acts. This should definitely be condemned. While posting their opinions, photos and videos online, these people might also have disclosed their personal data. Given that the Internet is boundary-free, any information uploaded online may eventually go public.
In consultation with the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau, I give my reply to the three parts of Ms HO's question as follows:
(1) The Administration absolutely does not compile any so-called "blacklists of social activists", not to mention the passing of such lists to any authorities outside Hong Kong.
Under the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance (PD(P)O) (Cap. 486), the handling of personal data is protected by law. Always acting in a lawful manner, the Administration handles the personal data of Hong Kong residents in accordance with the law.
(2) and (3)
Article 30 of the Basic Law clearly stipulates that the freedom and privacy of communication of Hong Kong residents shall be protected by law. No department or individual may, on any grounds, infringe upon the freedom and privacy of communication of residents except that the relevant authorities may inspect communication in accordance with legal procedures to meet the needs of public security or of investigation into criminal offences.
At present, no lawful channels are in place for law-enforcement officers from other jurisdictions to conduct surveillance in Hong Kong.
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As far as the ICSO (Cap. 589) is concerned, I have to make it clear that the purpose of the ICSO is not related to the concerns raised in the question. The purpose and designated scope of the ICSO are to regulate lawful interception of communications and surveillance by designated law-enforcement agencies in Hong Kong for the prevention and detection of serious crimes and the protection of public security. In addition to a complicated and sophisticated mechanism, there are stringent provisions under the ICSO to govern law-enforcement agencies' submission of applications to panel judges for the authorization of interception of communications and surveillance according to statutory procedures and requirements. The ICSO does not apply to non-public officers. Nor is it applicable to non-governmental organizations or individuals. The Administration has no intention to amend the ICSO to cover non-public officers.
Any acts of interception of communications by non-public officers may contravene the provision of wilful interception of messages by a telecommunications officer under section 24 of the Telecommunications Ordinance (Cap. 106), or the provision of damaging, removing or interfering telecommunications with intent under section 27 of the same. Such acts shall be under the regulation of the PD(P)O if collection of personal data is involved.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, in fact, the Secretary has admitted indirectly, on behalf of the Central Government, that there is a great deal of activities related to monitoring, maintaining stability and surveillance on the Internet. For this reason, he could shift the responsibility to the Internet easily.
In fact, the existing legislation only serves to consolidate the powers of the four law-enforcement agencies but they are most inadequate in protecting the Hong Kong public from being subjected to surveillance and protecting their personal privacy. For example, on the peak of Tai Mo Shan, there is a military facility with a radome. When the mass media made enquiries with the Security Bureau about whether or not it was used to carry out surveillance on the communication activities of the Hong Kong public, the Bureau did not give any response.
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President, in these circumstances, in the face of the availability of high technology, in particular, the surveillance that is perhaps conducted by the military force, if the public feel that their personal privacy is being infringed, may I ask the Secretary to which department or through what channels they can lodge complaints, so that contact or communication can be made with the Mainland in accordance with the law or administrative measures of Hong Kong? Is there any safeguard to prevent the public from being subjected to such surveillance? Have the authorities noticed such an inadequacy, and as a result devised a work plan to protect the public?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, when asking her supplementary question, Ms HO said I had admitted something on behalf of the Central Government. I ask Ms HO to understand my meaning according to the words used by me in my reply. I do not agree with any interpretation beyond my words. I was only pointing out some facts.
Second, the Member raised an issue related to Tai Mo Shan and I believe she was referring to a press report the other day. I have also read that report, which is divided into two parts. The first part said that a certain organization had said certain things, then some experts in Hong Kong were consulted about the views of this organization and the answer obtained was the direct opposite of the opinion of the organization concerned. I hope Members in reading this kind of news will consider it carefully before making any response.
Concerning the freedom of communication of the Hong Kong public, I have already stated very clearly in my main reply that any acts of interception of communications by non-public officers may contravene the provisions of the Telecommunications Ordinance. If anyone thinks that his personal information is being gathered, he can lodge a complaint with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner for Personal Data.
In this regard, I remember that several reports were compiled by the Law Reform Commission and consultations on these reports were also carried out by the Policy Bureaux concerned. To the Security Bureau, the duties performed by our law-enforcement agencies are regulated by explicit provisions in law.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): No. In fact, just now, I wished to raise a point of order in relation to the Secretary's reply because the President often says this is not an occasion for debate. Although the Secretary initiated a debate, it did not matter to me …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please ask your supplementary question.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): My supplementary question just now asks: Can he see the inadequacy of the existing legislation in Hong Kong? In the face of surveillance using high technology, ordinary members of the public cannot protect themselves, so can you see the inadequacies in this area and will you amend the existing legislation accordingly? Conversely, if the Secretary thinks that the existing safeguards are already adequate, he may as well say simply that there is no need for amendment, yet he did not answer my question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I believe my reply just now has answered Ms Cyd HO's question very clearly, although Ms HO may not be satisfied with or agree with it.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, as the Government said in its reply, under the principles of "one country, two systems" and "a high degree of autonomy", Hong Kong has its own immigration clearance policy but of course, these principles do not apply to national defence and foreign affairs. However, President, the Members of Parliament (MP) of the United Kingdom are neither terrorists nor diplomats and in coming to Hong Kong, they do not represent the British Government, so why did Beijing ban, on Hong Kong's behalf, these British MPs from coming to Hong Kong? Does this mean that "one country" has …
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms MO, the question asked by you is not relevant to the main question.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, this is very important because the reply of the Secretary states clearly that the SAR has its own immigration clearance policy but this time around, this is "one country, one system" and the issue of entry into Hong Kong was considered together with that of the Mainland, so this is unacceptable …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have already asked your supplementary question. Please let the Secretary answer it.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, as you said just now, the supplementary question asked by Ms MO is not relevant to the main question today. However, since Ms MO has asked this question, I implore the President to allow me to give her a brief response here.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has stated very clearly that this matter is considered to be foreign affairs and is under the charge of the Central Authorities. Other than this, I have nothing else to add.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, the reply of the Secretary to part (1) of Ms HO's main question reads, "The Administration absolutely does not compile any so-called 'blacklists of social activists', not to mention the passing of such lists to any authorities outside Hong Kong.". President, I am very concerned about such a reply and I dare not even believe it.
Under "one country, two systems", Hong Kong is part of the country and this is undeniable. Therefore, Hong Kong has the responsibility to defend national security and prevent anyone from taking actions that jeopardize national security, sovereignty and unity. My supplementary question is: The Government said it has not compiled any "blacklists of social activists", so does it mean that the Government acknowledges or considers that all social activists are people who love the country and Hong Kong and will not take actions that jeopardize national security, sovereignty and unity, and that they can even run for the office LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2853 of the Chief Executive? If not, why are there no blacklists? Does it mean the Secretary is in dereliction of his duty, and for this reason, he must be held accountable?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, if there is none, then there is none. As regards Dr LAM's question on whether or not all the people mentioned by him love the country and Hong Kong, I think that for one thing, this question has exceeded the scope of the question today; for another, it is not possible to set out the names of whatever number of people and discuss them one by one. Therefore, I am not going to express any view on Dr LAM's question in this regard.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): I think you cannot allow the Secretary to refuse to answer my supplementary question. My question is very positive and I believe many Hong Kong people also want to know if these social activists love the country and Hong Kong, and if they would do things that jeopardize the country …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, as pointed out by the Secretary, this part of your question is not relevant to the main question.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): May I know why it is irrelevant? Why? Are we not discussing immigration clearance? I think this is related to security. If the country grants their entry, does this not prove that they do not pose any danger?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The question asked by you just now is not related to immigration clearance, so please rephrase your question again.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, what the Secretary is most adept at is to give irrelevant answers. First, the Secretary said in his reply that "The Administration absolutely does not compile any so-called 'blacklists of 2854 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 social activists', not to mention the passing of such lists to any authorities outside Hong Kong.". May I ask the Secretary if he has ever passed any immigration control lists to other jurisdictions, no matter if the people in question are social activists or not? Has he ever done so? Is he playing with words? Do they have any list that was passed to authorities outside Hong Kong, including the Chinese Communist Government? Do they have such a list or not?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you have asked your supplementary question. Please sit down and let the Secretary answer it.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, as I stated clearly in the main reply, under "one country, two systems", the relevant authorities on the Mainland adopt an immigration clearance regime that is different from that of Hong Kong. They follow their own laws, rules and regulations in dealing with the entry of anyone, including Hong Kong residents, into the Mainland. As regards immigration clearance in Hong Kong, it is enforced by the Hong Kong Immigration Department according to the law. Anyone entering Hong Kong, except people with the right of abode in or the right to enter Hong Kong, has to be checked by officers of the Immigration Department (ImmD). All information or material on internal operation is internal. Such information or material is for internal use and will not be passed to other authorities.
(Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung stood up)
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, he is playing with words again. I asked you …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, the Secretary has already given a reply.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): You really think so?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2855
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already given a reply. Please sit down.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): OK, so be it. I give you face today.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, in respect of members of the public who were refused entry, I cannot find in the Secretary's main answer any reference to the assistance that will be provided. As far as I know, to cite an example, on 20 October 2010, in reply to a Member's question on the refusal of entry by Macao of social workers from Hong Kong, the Secretary said, "… we will approach and discuss with the immigration authorities of other places with a view to seeking more travel convenience, and so on, for Hong Kong residents". Earlier on, concerning the refusal of the entry of nine Hong Kong journalists into the Philippines, the Government also provided some assistance. Given that so many students were refused entry and the public's suspicion of whether or not these incidents were related to surveillance, may I ask the SAR Government if it will take the initiative to provide assistance to this group of residents by clarifying the reasons for the refusal of their entry or truly assisting them in seeking more travel convenience? How can the SAR Government assist them if they request its assistance?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I think Mr IP has really done a lot of homework regarding this subject because he cited a reply given by me in the past as an example. I can tell Members clearly that if any Hong Kong resident encounters problems or difficulties overseas or on the Mainland and requests our assistance, we have an established mechanism to handle their requests or refer their requests to the relevant authorities. Before I give a reply on the matter of concern to Members, since Mr IP mentioned the refusal of entry of Hong Kong journalists into the Philippines, I wish to reply to this part first. After the exposure of this incident, we received letters from representatives of the relevant media organizations ― and I remember Members also wrote to me ― requesting that we take follow-up actions. For this reason, in response to such requests, we reflected this matter to the Philippine Consulate General through the Office of the Commissioner of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China in the SAR, asking them to convey the 2856 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 requests of the people seeking assistance to the relevant authorities in the Philippines. In this regard, we have taken actions. Well, concerning the question raised by Mr IP just now, so far, we have not received any request concerning the matter about which the Member is concerned. If the people concerned make any requests, we will reflect them to the authorities or departments concerned on the Mainland according to the established procedures.
(Mr IP Kin-yuen stood up)
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, sorry but his reply has omitted part of my question, that is, what kind of assistance can the Government provide?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already replied. Secretary, apart from reflecting such requests to the departments concerned on the Mainland, what other assistance can the authorities provide?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I think I have already stated repeatedly here, for the third or the fourth time, that we will not interfere with the work of the relevant departments on the Mainland. Therefore, if we receive any request, we will convey it to the relevant departments. In the same vein, according to the Basic Law, immigration clearance in Hong Kong is under the charge of the ImmD and the situation is just the same.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): President, with so many young people in Hong Kong being refused entry into the Mainland one after another, have the authorities told Beijing what message this would send to young people in Hong Kong? Now, many surveys also showed that an increasing number of people do not identify themselves as Chinese. Did the authorities tell Beijing that this kind of actions would hurt the feelings of Hong Kong, in particular, the feelings of young members of the public? In this way, how can their identification with the country be enhanced?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, concerning the incidents reported by the press, since we have not received any request from the people concerned, I am sorry that I cannot comment on them any further because apart from the reports carried in newspapers, there is actually no direct information.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 23 minutes on this question. Last oral question.
Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link Under Construction
6. MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, in as early as 2009 when the Finance Committee of this Council vetted and approved the funding proposal for the project to construct the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), I pointed out that it would be difficult to implement the arrangements of co-location of boundary control facilities proposed by the authorities for the XRL because under the Basic Law, Mainland law-enforcement agencies were not allowed to perform law-enforcement work such as immigration control within the territory of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR). The relevant articles of the Basic Law include Article 18 which stipulates that national laws to be applied in the SAR shall be listed in Annex III and only laws outside the limits of the autonomy of the SAR may be listed in Annex III; and Article 22, which provides that all offices set up in the SAR by departments of the Central Government, and so on, and the personnel of these offices shall abide by the laws of the SAR. On the other hand, while the Government said in May this year that there would be delay and cost overruns in the XRL Project, the overseas experts commissioned by the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) have pointed out recently that there are two-thirds probability of having further cost overruns and one-third probability of having further delay in the commissioning date. As the cost-effectiveness of the XRL will be affected by the implementation of the co-location arrangements or otherwise as well as by delay and cost overruns in the XRL Project, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the concrete means to solve the legal problem pertaining to the implementation of the co-location arrangements in the SAR; the 2858 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
current progress of such work and when the problem is expected to be solved; whether it has assessed, in the event that the co-location arrangements cannot be implemented upon the commissioning of the XRL, if the speed of XRL trains will be reduced or even reduced to a level comparable to that of the through trains, thus rendering the XRL being unable to achieve the anticipated cost-effectiveness because of the need for XRL train passengers to alight at the border for immigration clearance and then re-board the train; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, of the justifications for that;
(2) given that the co-location arrangements may not be implemented upon the commissioning of the XRL, resulting in XRL trains having to operate at a normal speed within the SAR territory, whether the Government has plans in place to implement options that can reduce the construction cost of the XRL should such a situation occur; if it does, of the options; if not, the reasons for that; and
(3) given that the aforesaid experts have recommended that the MTRCL should re-evaluate the cost once every six months as well as set a probability based key performance indicator, and that the MTRCL should be required to report to the Capital Works Committee immediately if the probability of the Project achieving the timely completion and projected cost has decreased by 5% or more, whether the authorities will require the MTRCL to implement such recommendations; if they will not, of the reasons for that; which party will bear further cost overruns of the XRL; if the MTRCL will, how the authorities ensure that the MTRCL will not pass the cost onto the public by increasing its fares or through other means?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, our consolidated reply to the three parts of Mr Ronny TONG's question is as follows:
The total length of the XRL is around 140 km in which the Hong Kong Section of the XRL is 26 km. The HKSAR Government has entrusted the MTRCL with the construction and commissioning of the Hong Kong Section of the XRL. The construction works of the XRL commenced in January 2010. According to the MTRCL's latest revised project programme, the XRL is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2859 scheduled for completion and commissioning by the end of 2017. Upon completion, the Hong Kong Section of the XRL will provide express rail service between Hong Kong and Guangzhou, and connect to the wider regional and national railway lines in the Mainland. Enhancing Hong Kong's connectivity with various parts of the Mainland, the XRL has significant strategic importance and transport functions.
For short-haul services, the XRL trains will serve the West Kowloon Terminus in Hong Kong, Futian and Shenzhen North Stations (the latter formerly named Longhua Station) in Shenzhen, Humen Station in Dongguan, and Guangzhou South Station (formerly named Shibi Station) in Guangzhou. As regards long-haul services, Shenzhen North Station will connect to the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen Passenger Line, whereas Guangzhou South Station will connect to the Beijing-Guangzhou Passenger Line. Under the original plan, trains departing from the West Kowloon Terminus will run directly to 16 major Mainland cities without any intermediate stations for interchange. For travellers departing from Hong Kong, the journey time for Guangzhou will be reduced from about two hours at present to around 48 minutes. As for Shanghai and Beijing, the journey times will be shortened from around 19 and 24 hours at present to about seven to eight hours and around nine to 10 hours respectively.
Implementation of the arrangements for co-location of boundary control facilities (co-location arrangements) at the West Kowloon Terminus of the XRL is very important to the realization of the intended purpose of the XRL as it could truly unleash the potential of a time-saving express railway. Under the co-location arrangements, passengers boarding XRL trains in Hong Kong will only have to pass through the immigration control points of Hong Kong and the Mainland in the West Kowloon Terminus once before boarding and taking the XRL to all cities along the national XRL network. Similarly, XRL passengers embarking in any Mainland city will also be able to travel non-stop to Hong Kong, and pass through the two immigration control points only upon arrival. In other words, passengers can complete immigration clearance for both Hong Kong and the Mainland in one go without the need of disembarking for immigration checks en route. Only will this realize the convenience and speediness of the XRL to the full. Additionally, under the co-location arrangements, train deployment can be more flexible to maximize the benefits of XRL services.
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The concept of implementation of the co-location arrangements at the West Kowloon Terminus is to let Mainland inspecting officers enforcing the Mainland's immigration and clearance procedures and the related Mainland laws at the station. The prime concern of implementing the co-location arrangements at a designated area within the territory of Hong Kong is enabling Mainland officers to smoothly carry out their inspection duties under the Mainland law (including those relating to customs, immigration and quarantine matters) within the constitutional framework. The Department of Justice, the Transport and Housing Bureau, the relevant Policy Bureaux and departments are actively studying the above issues and discussing them with their Mainland counterparts. As the work is rather complex, it takes a longer time to deliberate and examine the related issues. The relevant work is still underway. Our goal is to strive for the implementation of the co-location arrangements at the West Kowloon Terminus when the Hong Kong section of the XRL is completed and commissioned by the end of 2017.
In respect of project cost, the Administration received a letter from the MTRCL on 24 July 2014, informing that the latest estimate of the Cost to Complete (CTC) for the XRL is $71.52 billion, including the additional insurance fees and the Project Management Cost. The MTRCL subsequently made public the above estimate on 11 August. This estimate is calculated on the basis of the MTRCL's revised Programme to Complete (PTC) (that is, the XRL will be commissioned by the end of 2017). It exceeds the original CTC ($65 billion) by $6.5 billion and also exceeds the approved project estimate (at $66.8 billion). Based on the information provided by the MTRCL, the Highways Department (HyD), with the assistance of its monitoring and verification (M&V) consultant, has substantially completed the assessment of the MTRCL's latest CTC estimate. The HyD and its M&V consultant discovered that the MTRCL had yet to take account of several matters in its latest CTC estimate, or some items had to be reassessed to ensure that there would be sufficient risk provisions. The HyD has urged the MTRCL to immediately review its latest CTC estimate in accordance with the department's assessment and the second report released by the independent board committee of the MTRCL in October 2014. The MTRCL has also been asked to demonstrate how to address the aforesaid matters which were not included in its latest CTC estimate.
Our most important task now is to dedicate all our efforts to implement the entire XRL Project and to complete it as soon as possible. This requires the MTRCL's full co-operation. The HyD and its M&V consultant will continue to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2861 employ appropriate monitoring mechanisms to systematically monitor the MTRCL's implementation progress of the XRL. If it is found that there are delays in the works under the contracts, or there are inadequacies in the works, the HyD will urge the MTRCL to take follow-up actions and adopt effective improvement measures. As to the project cost overruns and the responsibility for bearing the overruns, the Administration will deal with them in accordance with the Entrustment Agreement. To avoid any project delays, we will assess the MTRCL's responsibilities for the progress, delays and overruns of the project in a timely manner. We reserve all rights to pursue responsibility from the MTRCL for the warranties it has made and all its contractual obligations.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, as usual, the Secretary has by no means answered my question. However, I would only follow up the matter of co-location within Hong Kong territory today, and would leave other matters to other colleagues. President, may I ask the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs, if co-location is to be implemented within Hong Kong, can the SAR Government ensure that Mainland law-enforcement officers who take enforcement actions within Hong Kong will accept the judgments made by Hong Kong Courts with regard to judicial reviews? And how can it be ensured that the basic rights of Hong Kong people protected by law will not be undermined? If he cannot ensure this, what are the reasons?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Transport and Housing is the public officer designated by the Administration to answer this question. Secretary, please reply.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs is right there, why can he not give a reply?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TONG, as required, the Administration would decide which public officer answers which of the questions, and I will not disallow any public officer to give a reply. The Secretary for Transport and Housing is the public officer designated to answer this question. He should give a reply.
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MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): I understand this, President, but my wish is that the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs may give a reply voluntarily later on.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, please allow me to answer Mr TONG's supplementary question. The concept of co-location or its implementation definitely involves multifarious legal matters and questions as well as constitutional arrangements and interpretation of the Basic Law, so it is immensely complicated. At the moment, the issue is under active study by the Department of Justice together with the Transport and Housing Bureau and related bureaux, and we are also engaged in discussions with relevant departments in the Mainland. We will brief Members once there is a result from the discussions.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, I attend this meeting to give replies in respect of the Bill coming up next. However, as regards Mr TONG's supplementary question, I think I can add a few remarks. Relevant discussion has taken place within the Government, which includes the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau, under the leadership of the Secretary for Transport and Housing for sure. The SAR Government will, in strict accordance with the principle of "one country, two systems", the framework of the Basic Law as well as our relationship with the Central Authorities, and so on, ensure that the co-location arrangements to be implemented will conform to the requirements and stipulations under the constitutional order. Of course, we also need to give due regard to issues like the basic rights of Hong Kong residents protected by the Basic Law, their obligations, and so on, as Mr TONG mentioned earlier.
This is exactly why Secretary YAU Shing-mu said that a study in this regard is underway among colleagues from within the Government, the Department of Justice and related bureaux. We will brief Members in this Council at the first instance as soon as a mature package is available.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): The objective of the XRL, which costs $71.5 billion to build, is to connect with its Mainland counterpart and allow residents of the two places to travel to destinations expeditiously. If the issue of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2863 co-location remains unsolved, the whole express rail link will see its value of existence reduced. As regards the schedule for implementing the co-location arrangements, the authorities' reply is that it is rather complicated and needs longer time to devise and tackle.
May I ask the Secretary if he is confident that the co-location arrangements will be implemented upon the completion and commissioning of the XRL by the end of 2017; if he is, of the rationales; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I totally agree with the Member's point that co-location is a key factor when it comes to the benefits of the XRL per se. As I said earlier, this is immensely complicated, and we absolutely will not underestimate the difficulty involved.
We were aware of this in the past and also pointed out that we might not be able to implement co-location arrangements at the beginning, but that was the past. At present, we are determined to achieve the goal of implementing co-location arrangements upon the commissioning of the XRL. Given this goal, the commissioning date has now been revised for the end of 2017.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered whether the Government is confident of implementing the co-location arrangements upon commissioning.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you explain how confident the Government is?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I said just now, we know this is a complicated issue and would not underestimate the difficulty involved. Right now we are endeavouring to carry out the relevant work and my colleagues are studying and drawing reference from the past experiences of different countries and regions to hopefully gain some insight. We will combine such experiences with the conditions of Hong Kong to proceed with the relevant work especially on the basis of striving to protect the 2864 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 original foundation of Hong Kong and people's rights under the Basic Law and "one country, two systems". We are now endeavouring to march towards such a goal.
MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): The reply to the supplementary question given by the Secretary is also an issue of concern to me. The reason is you mentioned in your reply the Government would march in the direction of co-location arrangements. Earlier you stated that such arrangements may not be achievable as it would depend on the circumstances. It came as a great shock to me.
Now you have clearly stated your direction. But as Mr Ronny TONG has mentioned, the problem with Article 22 has all along existed. In your reply you said the Department of Justice, the Transport and Housing Bureau and relevant Policy Bureaux and departments are studying the issue. May I ask the Secretary, under such circumstances, as Hong Kong and Mainland both belong to "one country", why this problem is still not yet solved? I have just heard you say you will draw reference from overseas experiences. Indeed many overseas countries are experienced on this aspect, for example, border control and customs personnel of the United States can conduct pre-inspection of inbound visitors at Canadian and Irish airports. And for example, the United Kingdom and France have entered into an agreement whereby the United Kingdom can inspect the goods of inbound visitors in the controlled zone within France, whereas France can likewise set up a control zone in the United Kingdom. Have you made reference to such experiences? If you have actually made reference to these experiences, currently which aspects pose the greatest difficulty and which are the key issues that you cannot explain to Members because they have yet to be solved?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I have actually mentioned this point in my main answer earlier. I pointed out that, to implement the co-location arrangements within the territory of Hong Kong, the prime concern is how to enable Mainland officers to apply or enforce Mainland laws at some designated areas or regions within the territory of Hong Kong such that inspection duties in relation to customs, immigration and inspection can be smoothly and effectively carried out within the constitutional framework (that is, the Basic Law). How can Mainland laws be applied within LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2865 the territory of Hong Kong? There are many ways but I do not think it is appropriate to discuss here which ways we have explored. Nonetheless, the problems we need to solve involve consideration of many aspects. Besides conceptual considerations, we also need to pay attention to the actual operation. Therefore, this is a comprehensive project that requires overall consideration and cannot be explained in just a few words. Moreover, as it involves numerous departments and Mainland departments and committees, it is only appropriate to give an account to the public once the time is ripe after a period of development.
MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): President, over the years many Members have indeed enquired about the co-location arrangements mentioned by Mr Ronny TONG in his main question. Honestly, can the co-location arrangements be implemented at West Kowloon? We need only look at the framework of the Basic Law to find out that the problem can never be solved. I advise the Secretary or Under Secretary to come clean today and tell the people of Hong Kong that it cannot be accomplished. If you admit that it cannot be accomplished, we will then think about other ways to solve the problem so as not to make this a vain project. However, you must reply honestly that it cannot be accomplished after numerous futile studies. I hope you will give us an honest and straightforward answer.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, we are considering different ways and drawing reference from different proposals, some of which are worth consideration. Just as I have mentioned before, each way has its own advantages and shortcomings or potential problems. We believe we need to give holistic consideration to this matter so as to strike a balance and select a way that is the most suitable to Hong Kong while preserving the characteristics of "one country, two systems". Therefore, I reckon that it is not the opportune moment to give the public an account at this stage.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): President, actually Mr Ronny TONG also mentioned he had raised this main question five or six years ago, and many Members had brought up relevant issues at the meetings of the Finance Committee and panels back then. As a matter of fact, this problem cannot be solved.
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President, the example cited by Mr IP Kwok-him is not applicable, because there is no "one country, two systems" in those countries but we have "one country, two systems" here. We have visited the Shenzhen Bay building where the co-location arrangements have been implemented and relevant measures have been put in place. However, he talked about allowing some officials to come and enforce law in the SAR and carry out duties such as customs and immigration clearance. What is this? This is not possible.
As regards Article 154 of the Basic Law mentioned just now, the immigration policy is originally our responsibility. Now it has become a foreign affair, stripping us of our power of control before we could even raise any objection. I warn the SAR Government that it should never again do such kind of act. The Secretary have just said they are considering many different ways and stated a building needs to be built somewhere to allow Mainland officers to come and enforce the law. If this is so, "one country, two systems" is finished in no time!
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms LAU, please ask your supplementary question and refrain from making comments.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Therefore, I want to ask him if he is doing something to finish "one country, two systems".
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I have stressed many times just now that to consider putting in place the co-location arrangements, we must take into account the framework of the Basic Law, "one country, two systems" and the rights of the residents of Hong Kong and give it holistic consideration. As we need to make careful deliberations, we believe it is not responsible to hastily release information before the time is ripe.
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): President, I will raise a supplementary question about part (3) because the citizens of Hong Kong are very concerned about the delay and cost overruns and hope to know where the responsibility lies, whether the MTRCL's handling is extremely lousy and whether your supervision LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2867 has been ineffective. Therefore, may I ask the Secretary whether the three-member Independent Expert Panel headed by retired judge Mr Justice Michael HARTMANN which was appointed earlier by the SAR Government has completed the report? Is it now under the perusal of the Transport and Housing Bureau? I just want to know where we stand at the present stage.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, to our understanding, the Independent Expert Panel appointed by the Chief Executive has entered the final stage of their work which will be completed soon. According to the status known to us, they will submit the report to the Chief Executive in this month (that is, within this year), and we believe the Chief Executive will make the report public after his perusal. I believe this report can serve as a good foundation for us to discuss the sequence of events related to the XRL Project, including such problems as delay and cost overruns.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent almost 23 minutes on this question. Oral questions end here.
WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Processing of Teaching Staff Members' Applications for Suspension from Teaching Work and Personnel Policies of Tertiary Institutions
7. MR TONY TSE (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that two professors were respectively given approval by the University of Hong Kong and The Chinese University of Hong Kong, where they teach, for about one month's suspension from teaching work for the purpose of organizing and participating in an illegal occupation movement. Some members of the public have pointed out that the University Grants Committee (UGC) is duty-bound to monitor the institutions funded by it (UGC-funded institutions) on matters relating to their processing of teaching staff members' applications for suspension from teaching work, as well as their personnel policies for dealing with teaching staff members who have committed criminal offences, so as to ensure that such institutions have good governance and use public money properly. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council if it knows:
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(1) whether the UGC has approached the UGC-funded institutions to gain an understanding of their mechanisms for processing applications of teaching staff members for suspension from teaching work, including the circumstances under which such applications will be approved, the longest duration of suspension from teaching work, and the arrangements to be made by the institutions to avoid students' learning and the operation of the institutions being affected, and so on; if the UGC has looked into the matter, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(2) whether the UGC has requested the UGC-funded institutions to assess the impacts of their teaching staff members suspended from teaching work on aspects such as the operation of the institutions and the use of public money, and so on; if the institutions have conducted such an assessment, of the details and the measures to reduce such impacts; if not, the reasons for that, and whether they will conduct such an assessment in future;
(3) whether the UGC has requested the UGC-funded institutions to review if it was appropriate for them to grant approval for teaching staff members to suspend from teaching work for the purpose of organizing and participating in an illegal occupation movement, and whether this was in line with the principle of using public money properly; if the institutions have conducted such a review, of the details; if not, the reasons for that, and whether the UGC will request these institutions to conduct such a review; and
(4) whether the UGC has looked into the existing personnel policies of the UGC-funded institutions regarding how to deal with teaching staff members convicted of having committed criminal offences, including the arrangements pertaining to the teaching posts, remunerations and fringe benefits of the teaching staff member concerned; if the UGC has looked into the matter, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, all institutions funded by the UGC are autonomous with their own Ordinances and governing Councils. The UGC Notes on Procedures state that institutions enjoy autonomy in the development of curricula and academic standards, selection of staff and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2869 students, initiation and conduct of researches, internal allocation of resources, and so on, and are accountable for their decisions in these aspects. That said, the UGC Notes on Procedures also state that institutional autonomy does not exempt institutions from public interest and criticism. In fact, in view of the significant funding the institutions receive in the form of government subvention and private contributions, as well as the importance of higher education to the development of society, it is incumbent upon the Government and the community at large to have a legitimate interest in the operation of the institutions. Therefore, while the Government and the UGC attach great importance to safeguarding institutional autonomy, institutions are expected to remain committed to transparency and accountability in their operation, to ensure that funding is put to appropriate uses that serve the best interests of the community and students.
Recently, there is widespread public concern about staff of universities getting involved in organizing and participating in illegal activities. We stress that Hong Kong is a city of rule of law and that the law-enforcement agencies will deal with the concerned illegal activities, including their organization and planning, in a serious manner in accordance with the law. Meanwhile, the Government and the UGC have received numerous complaints that are concerned with internal management matters of an institution, including complaints about work arrangement and discipline matters of staff. We have referred the complaints to the relevant institution and requested it to handle the complaints in a serious manner and give an account of how these complaints are handled.
(1) to (3)
According to the information provided by the funded institutions, they have put in place internal mechanisms, rules and procedures to deal with leave applications of staff and the corresponding work and teaching arrangements. Staff must fulfil their contractual obligations. Leave entitlements of staff should comply with the minimum requirements as stipulated in relevant labour legislation and should be set out in employment contracts. All leave applications require approval. When deciding whether to approve leave applications of a staff member, an institution will take into full account its duty-related needs and other factors, and will ensure that the department concerned will make proper corresponding work arrangements (such as supply teachers, make-up classes, reshuffle of duties or re-scheduling of timetables, co-teaching, and so on) in 2870 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
order to maintain normal classroom teaching activities, while minimizing the impact on the teaching and learning, research and other operations of the institution as a result the staff member taking leave. Generally speaking, institutions have different leave types such as annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave, conference/working leave and no-pay leave, and so on. Depending on the type of leave, different application criteria and approving procedures apply, which include seeking approval from the designated authority as well as making proper corresponding duty-related arrangements. There are limits on the number of leave days to which a staff member is entitled for each type of leave. If necessary, institutions may also grant no-pay leave to their staff having regard to individual circumstances.
On the understanding that the abovementioned mechanisms and procedures are complied with, institutions deal with leave applications of staff and the corresponding work and teaching arrangements by themselves. The UGC does not stipulate any particular rules in this regard. That said, the UGC Notes on Procedures also provide that the UGC is responsible for providing assurance to the Government and the community on the standards and cost-effectiveness of the operations and activities of the UGC-funded institutions. Where necessary, the UGC can relay its concern regarding operational issues of the institutions, and request the institutions to look into the matters concerned and take appropriate follow-up actions.
(4) According to the information provided by the funded institutions, institutions have put in place internal mechanisms, rules and procedures to deal with staff discipline matters, including cases involving staff members convicted of criminal offences. In general, institutions will take appropriate follow-up actions having regard to the nature and seriousness of the cases. If necessary, disciplinary procedures will be initiated. Depending on the nature and seriousness of the case, the disciplinary procedures will be handled by personnel of appropriate ranks or an investigation/disciplinary panel/committee, and these include investigation and hearing. In the course of the procedures, the institutions will provide the staff concerned with the opportunities to clarify and respond. Subject to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2871
the investigation results, institutions will take appropriate actions or impose suitable sanctions, including termination of appointment, in accordance with the established personnel policies and guidelines as well as the terms and conditions laid down in the employment contracts. Appeal mechanisms are also available in all institutions to ensure that decisions are made in a fair and impartial manner. All personnel involved are required to observe confidentiality and all disciplinary actions taken will be recorded and filed properly.
Insufficient Parking Spaces for Nanny Vans
8. MR FRANKIE YICK (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that while the number of school private light buses (commonly called "nanny vans") has been increasing in recent years, there is a serious shortage of light bus parking spaces which can be used for parking nanny vans. As a result, many nanny van drivers park their vehicles illegally on the roadside. On the other hand, there are quite a number of vacant parking spaces for goods vehicles in the car parks under The Link Management Limited (The Link) but, owing to the restrictions under the land lease conditions, they may not be rented for use by nanny vans. The Link has to apply to the Lands Department (LandsD) and pay fees should it wish to change the uses of some of the parking spaces for parking other types of vehicles. Moreover, the shortage of parking spaces for nanny vans is further aggravated by The Link's policy of according priority to the light buses of social welfare organizations in renting the light bus parking spaces in its car parks. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the number of additional nanny vans in each of the past three years and the current total number of nanny vans; whether it knows the current number of light bus parking spaces in the car parks under The Link and such number in these car parks before they were taken over by The Link;
(2) of the details of the applications made by The Link to the LandsD for waivers of the lease conditions to change the uses of some of its car parking spaces for parking other types of vehicles (including the number and results of the applications made) since its takeover of the relevant car parks, and a breakdown, by new use, of the number of parking spaces which have been approved for changing their uses;
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(3) whether the authorities will request The Link to review the demand and supply situation of the parking spaces for various types of vehicles in its car parks, and make a one-off application to the LandsD for changing some of its parking spaces to light bus parking spaces, in order to provide more light bus parking spaces which can be used for parking nanny vans; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(4) apart from providing more light bus parking spaces in the car parks under The Link, of the authorities' measures to alleviate the shortage of parking spaces for nanny vans?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, school private light buses (SPLBs) (commonly known as "nanny vans") are categorized as light buses which could be used for the carriage of not more than 16 passengers. According to the Road Traffic (Construction and Maintenance of Vehicles) Regulations (Cap. 374A), the maximum dimensions of light buses are 7 m (length), 2.3 m (width) and 3 m (height). Generally speaking, depending on the number of seats, some SPLBs are of similar size as private cars, while some have longer bodies. SPLBs of smaller size may use parking spaces for private cars, while those of longer bodies should park at parking spaces which allow the parking of light buses.
My reply to the various parts of Mr Frankie YICK's question is as follows:
(1) In the past three years (from 2011 to 2013), the number of additional SPLBs was 111, 221 and 260 respectively. As of October 2014, the total number of SPLBs was 1 894.
According to land lease conditions, there are no parking spaces for light buses in The Link's car parks. In order to let out the parking spaces of goods vehicles for parking light buses, The Link needs to apply for temporary waiver and pay waiver fees to the LandsD. Currently, there are 442 goods vehicle parking spaces in The Link's car parks, which were approved by the LandsD and may be used for parking of vehicles used by people with disabilities and welfare organizations, as well as SPLBs of longer bodies.
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In respect of The Link's car parks which were formerly under the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA), the parking spaces of the HA's car parks were mainly for motorcycles, private cars and light goods vehicles. There were no parking spaces designated for light buses (including SPLBs).
(2) According to the information provided by the LandsD, The Link submitted a total of 122 temporary waiver applications related to car parks, 16 of which were subsequently withdrawn. For the 106 cases which require processing, they mainly involve converting parking spaces for parking other types of vehicles, or permitting residents of nearby housing estates to use those parking spaces. As at the end of September 2014, 101 applications were approved and the remaining applications are being processed. Among the approved applications, 97 involved converting the parking spaces for parking other types of vehicles. Details of these parking spaces are as follows:
(i) 442 parking spaces for goods vehicles have been permitted for parking other types of vehicles (including light buses, buses or special purpose vehicles); and
(ii) 22 parking spaces for private cars/goods vehicles or some vacant spaces in the car parks have been converted into 110 parking spaces for motorcycles.
(3) As a private organization, The Link will, having regard to the actual demand for and supply of parking spaces in individual car parks under its management, consider whether it is necessary to apply for the conversion of some of the parking spaces into those which allow the parking of light buses or other types of vehicles. We understand that The Link has noted an increase in the demand for parking spaces for goods vehicles. When applying for conversion of parking spaces for goods vehicles into those for light buses, The Link will thus strike a balance between the demands of different parties and accord priority, as far as possible, to the needs of persons with disabilities, welfare organizations and SPLBs.
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When The Link applies to the LandsD for conversion of goods vehicle parking spaces to parking for vehicle types not specified in the land leases, the LandsD will consult relevant government departments in accordance with the established procedures. The Transport Department (TD) will lend appropriate support to applications for the conversion of parking spaces to parking for light buses.
(4) As mentioned in the preamble above, SPLBs with smaller bodies may use parking spaces for private cars, the supply of which are in general adequate in Hong Kong. For SPLBs with longer bodies, the TD will continue to monitor their parking demand, and implement the following measures as and when necessary:
(i) provide on-street parking spaces as long as road safety and other road users are not affected;
(ii) allow temporary car parks to operate at sites with no immediate development plans;
(iii) require developers to include a suitable number of parking spaces for use by SPLBs, where appropriate, in development projects; and
(iv) if the demand for parking spaces for student service vehicles is particularly high in a certain district, the Government will consider designating some parking spaces at existing temporary car parks for the exclusive use of this type of vehicles when renewing the tenancy of these car parks.
Cutting Expenditure of Various Departments in the Coming Two Financial Years by Government
9. MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Chinese): President, it is learnt that the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau earlier issued a circular to various departments requesting them to cut their expenditure in each of the two financial years starting from 2016-2017 by 1%. In his blog of 3 August this year, the Financial Secretary explained that in view of the rapid growth in government LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2875 expenditure over the past few years which would result in structural deficits and coupled with the forecast of a weaker economy for this year, it was imperative for the Government to cut the growth of government expenditure by, among others, suspending the acceptance of Resource Allocation Exercise (RAE) bids from departments for increase of recurrent expenditure, and demanding departments to achieve an annual 1% savings of their expenditure while the resources thus saved would be centrally re-allocated for launching new projects to be included in the Policy Address for the coming year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether the Government's suspension of the acceptance of RAE bids from departments is an indication of a leading role played by the Policy Address in the control of the finance of the Government, while the role of the Budget will dwindle;
(2) whether it has estimated the amount of annual savings in government expenditure to be achieved as a result of the measure of cutting 1% of the expenditure of government departments; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(3) whether it has assessed the impacts of the aforesaid measure of cutting expenditure on the departments' provision of existing services and implementation of policies; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(4) of the reasons why the Government requests the departments to cut 1% of their expenditure across the board, instead of proposing different percentages of expenditure cut in light of the practical needs of individual departments;
(5) given that the demand by the public for government services has been increasing, whether it has assessed the impacts of the annual 1% expenditure cut on people's livelihood; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(6) given that the Financial Secretary has indicated limited new resources for a period in the future, whether it has assessed if such a situation will affect the development of new services by the departments; if it has, of the details?
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SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, my consolidated reply to the question on the RAE is as follows:
There should be scope for total government expenditure to continue to grow in the coming few years. As reflected in the Medium Range Forecast in the 2014-2015 Budget, the growth of the Government's expenditure over the forecast period will be 5.5% p.a., that is, in line with the trend growth rate of annual nominal Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for the period from 2015 to 2018.
In the face of challenges arising from ageing population and slowing down economic growth, the Government must promote economic development and take multi-pronged fiscal measures in a timely and resolute manner to ensure the long-term sustainability of public finances. Otherwise, a structural deficit would be inevitable after a decade or so. Containing expenditure growth is one of the major fiscal measures. They aim primarily at ensuring that expenditure growth would not continue to outpace revenue and economic growth; as well as stricter adherence with Article 107 of the Basic Law, which requires the Government to keep expenditure within the limits of revenue, avoid deficits, and keep the expenditure growth commensurate with the GDP growth rate.
The Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau issues an internal circular to all Policy Bureaux and departments in the third quarter of each year, setting out the internal resource allocation procedures for preparation of the estimates of expenditure for the coming financial year. The annual budget cycle starts shortly after passage of the Appropriation Bill and proceeds during July and August. The internal RAE is usually completed around October every year.
As in the past, in mapping out resource allocation arrangements each year, the Government will normally make necessary and appropriate changes and adjustments having regard to the overall fiscal position as well as policy priorities. There is no exception this year. Specifically, additional operating expenditure will mainly be allocated to funding proposals related to the Policy Address this year. For bureaux or departments requiring additional resources for core services due to special circumstances, resource allocation will be considered on a case-by-case basis. This arrangement is only applicable to the internal RAE conducted for the preparation of the 2015-2016 Estimates.
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The internal RAE for this year remains largely the same as in previous years. The only change is that resource allocation is mainly confined to designated Policy Address initiatives, for which bureaux and departments are requested to bid for the resources required, together with detailed justifications.
In the internal circular on this year's RAE issued by the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau, bureaux are requested to deliver 1% savings on their respective annual operating expenditure in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. Such expenditure control measures are meant to contain the growth of Government's overall expenditure, rather than reducing expenditure. The purpose is to encourage bureaux and departments to enhance productivity and effectiveness through greater efforts in re-engineering and re-prioritization in the light of their operational needs, hence releasing more resources for internal re-distribution for new and improved public services.
Cost Overrun of Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge Hong Kong Boundary Crossing Facilities Project
10. MR JAMES TIEN (in Chinese): President, the Government indicated in a press release issued earlier that the cost of the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB) ― Hong Kong Boundary Crossing Facilities (HKBCF) project (the Project) might exceed the approved project estimate by $5 billion. The cost overrun is attributable mainly to a surge in wage levels of construction workers, prices of construction materials and machinery, and so on, in recent years, resulting in the tender prices/estimated tender prices for the works contracts awarded/to be awarded being higher than the estimates in 2011. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) given that the authorities indicated in a paper submitted to the Public Works Subcommittee (the Subcommittee) of this Council on 14 October this year that there was a need to increase the estimated expenditure of the Project by an amount "above $500 million", of the reasons for the substantial increase in the amount of cost overrun to "about $5 billion" as indicated in the press release issued on 6 November, that is, a lapse of less than a month;
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(2) of the approved estimated expenditure on the various expenditure items under the Project for which cost overrun may occur and the estimated amounts of cost overrun to be incurred; whether it has assessed if the final amount of cost overrun will exceed $5 billion; if the assessment outcome is in the affirmative, of the reasons for that;
(3) of the expected time for submitting applications for supplementary provision for the Project to the Subcommittee and the Finance Committee of this Council;
(4) whether it has assessed if the cost overrun of the Project will have any impact on the toll of HZMB in future;
(5) whether it will consider importing foreign construction workers for the Project with a view to resolving the problem of project delay and rising cost due to shortage of labour;
(6) whether it has gained an understanding of the work progress of the HZMB-related projects in Zhuhai and Macao and whether those projects have experienced any cost overrun, and compared the situation of those projects with that of the Project; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(7) whether measures are in place to ensure that the completion date of the Project dovetails with that of the HZMB-related projects in Zhuhai and Macao, so that HZMB will be commissioned as scheduled; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, my reply to the seven parts of Mr James TIEN's question is as follows:
(1) to (4)
In the PWSCI(2014-15)7 paper issued by the Government on 14 October this year, it gives an overview of a total of 89 potential capital works items to be submitted to the Subcommittee for consideration in the 2014-2015 Legislative Council Session. One of them is the project. As we stated in Enclosure 2 of the paper, as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2879 the tender prices/estimated tender prices for the works contracts awarded/to be awarded are higher than the estimate in 2011, together with the increase in provision for price adjustments, we need to seek the approval of the Finance Committee later for increasing the approved project estimate to meet the latest forecast of construction expenditure. Enclosure 2 of that paper has a standard format and has been adopted for years. There are three standard categories of the concerned "indicative cost of the proposed increase in the approved cost estimate", that is, "below $200 million", "$200 million to $500 million" and "above $500 million". At that time, as our initial assessment of the approved project estimate of the HZMB HKBCF has to be increased by about $5 billion, it belongs to the category "above $500 million" in the options listed in the form, and therefore such estimation was provided.
Subsequently, in response to some reports by the media regarding the project cost, the Transport and Housing Bureau indicated in a press release issued on 6 November that as regards the cost for the bridge's HKBCF, the approved project estimate in November 2011 was $30.4339 billion. But according to the current preliminary estimate, the approved project estimate has to be increased by about $5 billion, mainly because the tender prices/estimated tender prices for the works contracts awarded/to be awarded are higher than the estimate when the Government sought approval from the Legislative Council in 2011 due to the surge in wage levels of construction workers, prices of construction materials and machinery, and so on, in recent years.
The Highways Department is still conducting detailed assessment on the progress of the project and the newly increased cost. When finalized, we will give a detailed account to the Legislative Council Panel on Transport at its meeting in December and then seek funding approval for the increase in the approved project estimate from the Legislative Council Public Works Subcommittee and the Finance Committee according to the procedures.
The Hong Kong SAR Government is responsible for the expenditure of the HKBCF project and the accounts are separated from the HZMB Main Bridge project which the construction is co-financed by 2880 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
the three governments. Therefore, the increase in the approved project cost for the HKBCF project will not affect the toll of the HZMB in future.
(5) For selected trades with skilled labour not readily available locally, some 200 workers were imported under the Supplementary Labour Scheme (SLS) in 2012 to work in the HKBCF reclamation project. The relevant works undertaken by these imported workers have been substantially completed. As for the other parts of the HKBCF project, if contractors cannot recruit sufficient manpower locally, they may continue to apply to the Labour Department for imported workers under the SLS.
Projects costs are affected by many factors with labour cost being only one of them. According to the prevailing requirements of the SLS, wages for imported workers should not be less than the monthly median wages of local workers in comparable positions.
(6) and (7)
The entire HZMB project consists of (i) the HZMB Main Bridge; and (ii) the link roads and boundary crossing facilities of the three sides. The works of the HZMB Main Bridge are situated in the Mainland waters and are being carried out by the HZMB Authority. The three sides are responsible for their own boundary crossing facilities and link roads. The projects of the HZMB are huge and complex. There are many technical challenges experienced during the design and construction stages. With safety and quality assurance as the major premises, the three governments have been reviewing the implementation of the projects with a view to overcoming and handling the concerned difficulties in a timely manner, such that the entire HZMB project (including the Main Bridge as well as the link roads and boundary crossing facilities of the three sides) can be commissioned at the same time.
As for the related projects of Zhuhai and Macao, as they are being undertaken by the Zhuhai and Macao governments respectively, it is inappropriate for us to provide information regarding the progress and expenditure of these projects.
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Sales of First-hand Residential Properties
11. MR JAMES TO (in Chinese): President, the Residential Properties (First-hand Sales) Ordinance (Cap. 621) (the Ordinance) came into effect on 29 April 2013, and the Sales of First-hand Residential Properties Authority (SRPA) is responsible for the implementation of the Ordinance. Last month, the Consumer Council (CC) published a "Study on the Sales of First-hand Residential Properties (the Study). The Study points out that while the Ordinance has been enforced for one and a half years, the sales process of first-hand residential properties is still currently plagued with various problems, including that sales brochures have voluminous information but lack key information such as property management fees, not all units included in the price lists are for sale thus confusing prospective buyers, multiple "registrations of intent" by the same person is allowed hence inflating the demand, and so on. The Study also makes a number of recommendations for improvements. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) since the Ordinance came into effect, (i) of the number of complaints received by the SRPA relating to the sale of first-hand residential properties, and the number of property developments involved, (ii) of the number of first-hand property developments the sales materials of which have been scrutinized by the SRPA, as well as the problems identified and the contraventions of the Ordinance detected as a result; of the relevant recommendations for improvements that SRPA has given to developers and estate agents, as well as the penalties it imposed, and whether such recommendations have been implemented; if such recommendations have not been implemented, of the reasons for that;
(2) since the Ordinance came into effect, of the number of property developments the sales offices of which have been inspected by the SRPA in respect of the sale of first-hand residential properties; of the number of inspections in which the SRPA staff posed as prospective buyers, as well as the problems identified and the contraventions of the Ordinance detected as a result; of the relevant recommendations for improvements that SRPA has given to developers and estate agents, as well as the penalties it has imposed, and whether such recommendations have been implemented; if such recommendations have not been implemented, of the reasons for that; 2882 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
(3) since the Ordinance came into effect, among the cases of alleged contraventions of the Ordinance that SRPA has detected, (i) of the number of cases which have been referred to the Estate Agents Authority (EAA) for follow-up and, among such cases, the total amount of registration fees paid by estate agents on behalf of prospective buyers, as well as the respective numbers of estate agency companies and estate agents involved; (ii) of the number of cases which have been referred to the Department of Justice (DoJ) after the SRPA's investigations, the number and names of the first-hand property developments involved and, among such cases, the number of cases that the DoJ is considering whether prosecutions should be instituted (broken down by name of the property development and nature of the case); (iii) of the follow-up actions taken for these cases of alleged contraventions, and the reasons why the authorities have so far not instituted any prosecution as well as the difficulties involved;
(4) given that the provisions in the Ordinance regarding the prohibition of false or misleading information were modelled on the relevant provisions in Ordinances such as the Securities and Futures Ordinance (Cap. 571), whether the SRPA has made reference to the experience of prosecutions successfully instituted under the relevant Ordinances, with a view to boosting the success rate of the prosecutions concerned; whether the authorities will consider, by making reference to the relevant provisions in Cap. 571, introducing legislation to require developers to publish any information that may affect the prices of residential units, including the statistics on registrations of intent in order to enhance the transparency of the market, as well as empowering the SRPA to seek orders from the Court to restore the original position, so that those buyers who have suffered losses from the purchase of residential units due to false or misleading information may either restore their original positions or receive compensations, in order to step up the deterrent effect against bad sales practices; and
(5) whether it has assessed the feasibility of the recommendations made by the Study (including measures such as to ensure that all units included in the price lists must be available for sales concurrently, to step up inspections against the offences of inflating the number of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2883
registrations of intent, and to schedule the sessions on balloting and property selection on different days, and so on), and whether it will consider making amendments to the Ordinance in order to implement these recommendations, so as to protect consumers' interests more effectively?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, the Ordinance came into full implementation on 29 April 2013. The objectives of the Ordinance are to enhance the transparency and fairness in the sales of first-hand residential properties, strengthen consumer protection, and provide a level playing field for vendors of first-hand residential properties.
The Ordinance sets out detailed requirements in relation to the sales brochures, price lists, show flats, viewing of first-hand completed residential properties, registers of transactions, information to be provided in the documents containing the sales arrangements, advertisements, and the mandatory provisions for the Preliminary Agreement for Sale and Purchase (PASP) and the Agreement for Sale and Purchase (ASP) for first-hand residential properties. It also provides for prohibitions against misrepresentation or the dissemination of false or misleading information by any person in promoting the sales of firsthand residential properties.
Contraventions of the relevant provisions in the Ordinance are criminal offences. There are altogether 120 criminal offences under the Ordinance. Depending on the contraventions involved, offenders are liable on conviction to a maximum penalty of a fine of $5,000,000 and/or an imprisonment for seven years.
The Ordinance is the result of a year's discussion in the Steering Committee on the Regulation of the Sale of First-hand Residential Properties by Legislation (the Steering Committee) set up under the Transport and Housing Bureau, followed by a two-month public consultation exercise, and thorough discussion and scrutiny in the Legislative Council. The CC, the trade and relevant stakeholders have actively participated in the discussion.
The Ordinance has achieved considerably since its implementation. For example, vendors can only present the area and price per square foot and per square metre of a first-hand residential property in terms of saleable area; vendors 2884 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 who wish to make available a show flat for a residential property have to make available an unmodified show flat of that residential property as a prerequisite for making available a modified show flat of that residential property; vendors are required to make available the sales brochure for a period of at least seven days immediately before a date of sale; vendors are required to make available the price list(s) and the document(s) containing the sales arrangements for a period of at least three days immediately before a date of sale; and vendors will have to wait for three days for amendments to the price lists and sales arrangements to take effect.
As at 24 November 2014, vendors have offered to sell about 23 000 first-hand residential properties in 131 residential developments.
My reply to the five parts of the question raised by Mr James TO is as follows:
(1) and (2)
As at 24 November 2014, the SRPA has received 101 complaint cases. Seventy five of the cases are related to the Ordinance, and the remaining 26 cases are not related to the Ordinance. The 75 cases which are related to the Ordinance involve the sales of 40 first-hand residential developments. The targets of the complaints include vendors, estate agents and parties who have a role to play in the sales of firsthand residential properties.
The SRPA examines all the sales brochures (including the revised sales brochures), price lists, documents containing the sales arrangements, registers of transactions and designated websites which are made available to the public by vendors, and printed advertisements of first-hand residential properties in major newspapers. Besides, the SRPA inspects all of the sales offices and show flats of first-hand residential properties.
As at 24 November 2014, the SRPA has examined about 660 sales brochures (including the revised sales brochures), about 1 500 price lists, about 850 documents containing the sales arrangements, and about 4 800 printed advertisements. Also, the SRPA has conducted 2 000 inspections on the registers of transactions and 5 200 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2885 inspections on the websites designated by vendors. The SRPA has conducted about 1 600 inspections on the sales offices and show flats, and some of them were conducted jointly with the EAA.
The SRPA spares no effort in implementing the Ordinance and carrying out investigations on persons suspected of having contravened the Ordinance. The SRPA will carry out investigations on suspected contraventions of the Ordinance detected during compliance checks/inspections and those arising from complaints or media enquiries. The SRPA looks into cases which are suspected of contravening the Ordinance seriously. The SRPA has been referring investigation reports on suspected contraventions to the Prosecutions Division of the DoJ for consideration.
Generally speaking, during the investigation of suspected contraventions of the Ordinance, the SRPA would write to the vendors for explanations for the suspected contraventions. Under most of the circumstances, vendors had taken prompt actions to rectify or improve the situations concerned upon knowing that the issues had caught the SRPA's attention or were under the SRPA's investigations, regardless of whether the vendors concerned agreed there might be contravention of the Ordinance.
The SRPA attaches great importance on whether the sales arrangements set by the vendors are in line with the principles of fairness and transparency. For sales arrangements which do not contravene the Ordinance but may possibly cause order problem and affect purchaser's interest, the SRPA will advise the vendors concerned on improvement measures and issue guidelines to the trade. Under most of the circumstances, vendors have accepted the advice of the SRPA and have improved the sales arrangements.
The SRPA has been keeping a watchful eye on the inflated number of registrations of intent in the sales of first-hand residential properties. The SRPA has been reminding prospective purchasers that the register of transactions for a development is the most reliable source of information which members of the public can get hold of the daily sales situation of a development. Prospective purchasers should be cautious in making reference to hearsay information from 2886 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
vendors or the market regarding the number of registrations of intent received before the date of sale. They should not take the figures as an indicator of the sales volume of a development.
For cases involving estate agents, the SRPA will, apart from conducting investigations on whether the concerned estate agents have contravened the Ordinance, refer the cases to the EAA for follow-up action.
For situations which are suspected of having contravened the Ordinance or which are undesirable and which will possibly affect prospective purchasers' interest seriously, the SRPA will, while carrying out investigations, alert prospective purchasers of the situations through media channels in the first instance. As at 24 November 2014, the SRPA has issued reminders to the public on 13 occasions in respect of the sales of individual first-hand residential developments/phases.
On public education, the SRPA has published the "Notes to Purchasers of First-hand Residential Properties" to remind prospective purchasers of the issues they should pay particular attention to when purchasing first-hand residential properties. Also, the SRPA has published a leaflet to set out in layman terms the major requirements of the Ordinance on vendors. There are frequently asked questions and answers in the SRPA's website. Announcements of Public Interest (API) on the implementation of the Ordinance are broadcasted on TV and radio channels, and on various other media channels. The SRPA launched a new TV and radio API in August this year to remind prospective purchasers to think carefully before signing a PASP.
(3) Of the cases of suspected contraventions of the Ordinance detected during compliance checks/inspections and those arising from complaints or media enquiries, most of them are about sales brochures, registers of transactions, printed advertisements, misrepresentation and the dissemination of false or misleading information. Persons suspected of having contravened the Ordinance include vendors, estate agents and parties which have a role to play in the sales of first-hand residential properties.
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As stated above, for cases involving estate agents, the SRPA will, apart from conducting investigations on whether the concerned estate agents have contravened the Ordinance, refer the cases to the EAA for follow-up action.
It takes time to conduct investigations and collect evidence. The SRPA has been referring investigation reports on suspected contraventions to the Prosecutions Division of the DoJ for consideration. It is not the proper time to disclose the details at this stage.
(4) The Administration has indeed made reference to the Securities and Futures Ordinance (SFO) when drafting the relevant sections of the Ordinance on misrepresentation and the dissemination of false or misleading information. That said, situations relating to the transactions of securities and futures are not exactly the same as those in first-hand residential properties. The regulatory regime for securities and futures may not be totally applicable to first-hand residential properties.
There are provisions under the Ordinance which stipulate that if a person makes a misrepresentation by which another person is induced to purchase a first-hand residential property, the person who makes the misrepresentation is liable to pay compensation by way of damages to the other person for any pecuniary loss that the other person has sustained as a result of the reliance by the other person on the misrepresentation, regardless of whether or not the person who makes the misrepresentation also incurs any other liability, and notwithstanding that the person has not been charged with or convicted of an offence by reason of a contravention of the provisions on misrepresentation under the Ordinance.
The proposal for requiring vendors of first-hand residential properties to provide in the sales brochures information which is likely to materially affect the price of a residential property, in addition to provide information which is known to the vendor but is not known to the general public and which is likely to materially affect the enjoyment of the residential property, has been discussed 2888 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
at great length when the Bills Committee on Residential Properties (First-hand Sales) Bill (the Bills Committee) of the Legislative Council scrutinized the Bill.
The proposal for making reference to the SFO and adding new provisions to the Ordinance to enable the SRPA to apply to the Court of First Instance to make court order(s) to restore the parties to any transaction to the position, in which they were before the transaction was entered into; or declare a transaction to be void, involves complicated issues and has to be considered carefully.
(5) The SRPA will consider in details the findings and recommendations of the study conducted by the CC on the sales of first-hand residential properties (the Report).
In fact, some of the recommendations in the Report are not entirely new to the Administration. Issues such as the lead time for purchasers of first-hand residential properties to sign an ASP after signing the PASP, the amount to be forfeited if a purchaser fails to sign an ASP within the prescribed period of time, and whether it is legally possible to require vendors to offer to sell all of the residential properties the prices of which have been set out in the price lists in one go, were discussed at great length within the Steering Committee, during the public consultation exercise, and/or when the Bill was scrutinized by the Bills Committee of the Legislative Council.
The Ordinance strikes a balance between enhancing transparency and fairness in the sales of first-hand residential properties, and allowing vendors the flexibility in making business decisions and disposing of their properties lawfully. The existing provisions in the Ordinance are the result of the deliberations among different stakeholders along the spirit of consensus building while respecting differences. Taking into consideration there was wide support among the public in general for strengthening the protection to property purchasers, the Administration had incorporated suggestions which were conducive to protecting the interest of the purchasers of first-hand residential properties into the Bill as far as practicable.
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There is call for legislative amendments to the Ordinance to rectify sales arrangements which are not totally desirable, such as vendors not offering to sell all of the residential properties the prices of which have been set out in the price lists in one go, vendors making use of the registration system to create the situation of receiving a sheer number of cashier orders; and whether there is reasonable time between the balloting session and the property selection session for prospective purchasers to learn about the balloting results and go to the venue for property selection. The Ordinance has only been implemented for more than one year. More experience is required before conducting a review. We should not rush in proposing legislative amendments. At this stage, we consider it will be quicker to yield results through discussion between the SRPA and the trade and the issue of guidelines than through legislative amendments.
There are various other recommendations in the CC's Report, such as strengthening compliance checks/inspections by the SRPA, enhancing the transparency of the sales arrangements, and raising public awareness on the SRPA and its work. They are in line with SRPA's objectives. The SRPA will follow up those recommendations actively.
Application Fee and Registration Fee Charged by Kindergartens
12. DR KENNETH CHAN (in Chinese): President, currently, the Education Bureau has stipulated the ceilings on the application fee and registration fee which kindergartens (KGs) may collect from parents of each student; and KGs must obtain prior approval from the Education Bureau before they may collect an application fee or registration fee exceeding the relevant ceiling. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether it knows, in respect of the KGs in each District Council (DC) district in each of the past three school years, (i) the number of enrolment applications received and the total amount of application fees collected by each KG on average, (ii) the name of the KG among them which collected the highest application fee and the 2890 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
amount involved, and (iii) the name of the KG among them which collected the highest total amount of application fees and the amount involved;
(2) whether it knows, in respect of the KGs in each DC district in each of the past three school years, (i) the total amount of registration fees collected by each KG on average, and the total amount of such registration fees forfeited by each KG on average because the parents of students finally gave up the school places, (ii) the name of the KG among them which collected the highest registration fee and the amount involved, (iii) the name of the KG among them which collected the highest total amount of registration fees and the amount involved, and (iv) the name of the KG among them which forfeited the highest total amount of registration fees and the amount involved;
(3) of the respective numbers of applications received by the Education Bureau in the past three school years for collection of an application fee or registration fee exceeding the relevant ceilings, and set out the following information of each application by name of school: (i) the amount of application fee or registration fee proposed to be collected, (ii) the grounds for making the application, and (iii) the application outcome; and
(4) whether it has comprehensively reviewed the requirement on collection of application fees and registration fees by KGs as well as the mechanism for vetting and approval of applications for collection of an application fee or registration fee exceeding the relevant ceiling; if it has, of the details and the latest progress of the review; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, my reply to Dr Kenneth CHAN's question is as follows:
(1) and (2)
According to section 61(1) of the Education Regulations, schools must first obtain the written approval of the Permanent Secretary for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2891
Education before collecting any fees whatsoever other than the inclusive fees as printed on the fees certificate, including entrance examination fee (commonly known as application fee) and pupil registration fee. To streamline schools' administrative procedures, the Education Bureau has set the approved ceilings for application fee and registration fee of KGs and approved KGs to collect the fees within the approved ceilings. The requirements and approved ceilings have been set out in the related the Education Bureau circular. Schools that wish to collect fees exceeding the approved ceilings are required to seek the prior approval from the Education Bureau.
KGs can determine their own level of application fee or registration fee within the approved ceilings without notifying the Education Bureau. Furthermore, student admission is a school-based matter. Having regard to their own circumstances, KGs should draw up appropriate arrangements according to the Education Bureau's requirements. KGs are not required to provide the Education Bureau with information on the number of admission applications received, the total amount of application fee and registration fee collected, and the total amount of registration fee forfeited for cases where the parents subsequently decline the school places offered for their children. Owing to the abovementioned measures and actual administrative arrangements, the Education Bureau is unable to supply the required information.
(3) The respective numbers of applications received and approved by the Education Bureau in the past three school years (that is, 2011-2012, 2012-2013 and 2013-2014) for collection of an application fee or registration fee by KGs, which exceeds the approved ceilings are set out in the Annex. It is not appropriate to disclose application details of individual KGs (including their names, the proposed amount of application fee or registration fee, as well as grounds and outcome of their applications) as they cover data concerning KGs' operation and internal matters. That said, the Education Bureau has included information on the permissible amount of application fee and registration fee of individual KGs in the online version of the Profile of KGs and Kindergarten-cum-Child Care Centres for access by parents and the public.
2892 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
(4) The Education Bureau conducted a review of the approved ceilings of application fee and registration fee in early 2014 and KGs were notified of the revised approved ceilings via a circular issued in April 2014.
KGs that wish to collect application fee or registration fee at a level exceeding the approved ceilings shall submit an application together with justifications to the Education Bureau. Given the great diversity in KGs in terms of their operation, the Education Bureau will consider each application in the light of the specific situation of individual KGs and the justifications they put forward, including the additional expenses incurred for handling applications and admission related matters.
Annex
Numbers of applications received and approved by the Education Bureau for collection of an application fee or registration fee exceeding the approved ceilings in the 2011-2012, 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 school years:
(i) Application Fee School Year Number of Applications Number of Applications Approved 2011-2012 3 2 2012-2013 3 3 2013-2014 29 18
(ii) Registration Fee School Year Number of Applications Number of Applications Approved 2011-2012 2 0 2012-2013 1 0 2013-2014 5 3
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2893
Enforcement of Law Banning Trawling Activities
13. MR WU CHI-WAI (in Chinese): President, the law banning trawling activities has come into operation since 31 December 2012 to protect the precious marine resources and ecosystem. However, some fishermen have pointed out that as the authorities have not conducted patrols and taken law-enforcement actions on a regular basis, some local and Mainland fishing vessels still carry out illegal trawling activities in Hong Kong waters from time to time. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the respective numbers of warnings issued to and prosecutions instituted against fishermen by the authorities for illegal trawling activities since the aforesaid law came into operation; the locations involved in such illegal activities as well as the lowest and highest penalties imposed on the convicted persons;
(2) of the details of the enforcement actions taken by the authorities against illegal trawling activities (including the frequency of patrols conducted in these waters, deployment of manpower, notification mechanism and the average time taken to arrive at the scene upon receipt of reports); whether they have conducted a review to see if the existing regulatory efforts, law-enforcement mechanism and penalties have sufficient deterrent effect; if they have, of the outcome of the review; if not, the reasons for that and whether they have plans to conduct such review;
(3) whether various law-enforcement departments (including the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department, the Hong Kong Police Force and the Marine Department) have co-ordinated their work on combating illegal trawling activities; if they have, of the details; and
(4) of the respective numbers of warnings issued to and prosecutions instituted against fishermen on Mainland fishing vessels by the authorities for carrying out illegal trawling activities in Hong Kong waters since the aforesaid law came into operation; whether local and Mainland law-enforcement agencies have set up liaison mechanism and conducted joint law-enforcement operations to combat illegal trawling activities carried out by Mainland fishing vessels in Hong Kong waters; if they have, of the details?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, trawling is a non-selective mode of fishing operation which damages the seabed and brings detrimental impact on the marine ecosystems. A ban on trawling activities brings the harmful depletion to an immediate halt and enables the marine ecosystems to rehabilitate gradually, thereby contributing to the sustainable development of the fisheries industry in the long run. By exercising the power conferred by the Fisheries Protection Regulations (Cap. 171A), the Director of Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation has banned trawling in Hong Kong waters through the Fisheries Protection (Specification of Apparatus) Notice (Cap. 171B). Any person who contravenes the ban is liable on conviction to a maximum fine of $200,000 and imprisonment for up to six months. The relevant provisions came into force on 31 December 2012.
From the time the relevant provisions came into force, the Government has been acting vigorously to combat illegal fishing activities. Up to October 2014, the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) has made 13 200 patrols (including those conducted during night time and the early morning hours) in Hong Kong waters for strict enforcement of the relevant legislation.
The AFCD has been maintaining close liaison with the relevant government departments (including the Police Force and the Marine Department). It carries out joint enforcement operations with them as necessary to combat illegal fishing activities in Hong Kong waters. The AFCD takes immediate actions against any trawling activities detected. In 2014 (up to October), the AFCD and the Police Force had conducted a total of 37 joint operations.
Acting on intelligence, the AFCD will step up patrols and enforcement actions in waters where trawling activities are frequently found. The AFCD will also keep in touch with fishermen groups to widen its access to information that would help the Department to combat illegal fishing activities more effectively.
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(1) The AFCD will take prosecution action immediately if any person is found to be involved in any illegal fishing activities. No warning will be issued.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2895
Since implementation of the trawl ban up to October 2014, the AFCD had instituted 25 prosecutions involving trawling. The persons involved in 19 of these cases were convicted. The penalty handed down by the Court ranges from a fine of $2,000 to $85,000 with individual offenders being sentenced to imprisonment for terms ranging from two days to four weeks. Six cases are now being processed.
The trawling activities in the abovementioned cases took place mainly in waters close to the outer limits of Hong Kong's boundaries in the south-eastern; southern; and western parts of the territory.
(2) The AFCD has been conducting, at random hours, patrols in Hong Kong waters for enforcing the relevant legislation and will step up patrols in waters where trawling activities were identified in the past, such as in waters near the boundary in the southern and western parts of Hong Kong. At present, five law-enforcement teams under the AFCD (including the teams responsible for enforcing the provisions in fisheries-related legislation and the Marine Parks Ordinance) are deployed in different districts to carry out patrols. The AFCD maintains close liaison with the Marine Regional Headquarters of the Police Force (Marine Police) and the Marine Police Districts; shares with each other information and intelligence on illegal trawling; and pursues joint law-enforcement operations as appropriate in combating illegal fishing activities.
Upon receipt of reports on illegal fishing activities, the law-enforcement teams of the AFCD or the Marine Police Districts will proceed to the scene as soon as possible. Depending on the location of the waters concerned, the prevailing weather conditions, and the state of the law-enforcement team being deployed, the time required for reaching the scene where the alleged offence is taking place varies. We do not keep such records. Since implementation of the trawl ban, the joint operations of the AFCD and other law-enforcement departments have proved to be effective. Prosecutions have been successfully instituted on a good number of occasions. It is generally accepted that the penalties (including fine and imprisonment) imposed by the Court provide effective deterrent. We do not consider it necessary to review the penalty levels at this stage. 2896 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
(3) The AFCD and the Police Force will, in the light of the actual illegal trawling situation on the ground and intelligence collected, adjust their strategies from time to time in order to combat illegal fishing activities effectively. For example, the Police Force has recently deployed a new vessel arrest system, leading to the successful interception of several fishing vessels that are engaged in trawling and the subsequent prosecution of the operators.
(4) If Mainland fishing vessels are found engaged in trawling activities in Hong Kong waters, the AFCD will immediately prosecute the offenders. The Department will not issue warnings.
Up to October 2014, there were five cases where the AFCD had instituted prosecutions against Mainlanders involved in trawling in Hong Kong waters. All the offenders were convicted by the Court. The penalty awarded ranges from a fine of $800 to $5,000, with individual offenders being sentenced to imprisonment for terms from two days to four weeks.
For the purpose of tackling the involvement of Mainland fishing vessels in illegal fishing within the territorial waters of Hong Kong, the AFCD has maintained close liaison with the relevant Mainland authorities (including the Fisheries Authorities of Guangdong) and exchanged information with each other to jointly combat fishing vessels engaged in illegal fishing activities. The law-enforcement agencies of Guangdong and Hong Kong (including the AFCD, the Hong Kong Police Force and the Fisheries Authorities of Guangdong) also carry out joint enforcement operations regularly to combat cross-boundary illegal fishing activities. The last such joint enforcement operation was conducted on 23 October 2014. Thereafter, the parties involved had also reviewed and exchanged views on the tactics and other details of the operation.
Emphasis on Education Relating to Innovation and Technology
14. MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Chinese): President, I have learnt that, in recent years, quite a number of advanced countries focusing on innovation and technology have put great emphasis on education relating to the four fields of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2897 science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), including the provision of through-train support on further education and career development, scholarships and academic selection for students studying in programmes relating to these subjects, with the aim of enhancing students' interests in taking such subjects. Also, these students are encouraged to set clear goals on further education and career development. Moreover, these countries proactively encourage women to pursue such subjects for the purpose of enhancing their capabilities in facing a society in which innovation and technology take the lead in economic development. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of a breakdown of the statistics on STEM-related subjects (including Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Design and Applied Technology, Information and Communication Technology, Science: Combined Science, Science: Integrated Science, and Technology and Living) among the Category A subjects of the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education (HKDSE) Examination, in each of the Examinations held since 2012, and set out such information by subject in tables of the same format as Table 1;
Table 1 Subject: Number of Number of male female Number of Number of candidates candidates Year male female achieving achieving candidates candidates Level 5 or Level 5 or above above 2012 2013 2014
(2) whether it knows the breakdown of the statistics on the students admitted to STEM-related degree programmes offered by the tertiary institutions funded by the University Grants Committee (UGC-funded institutions) in each year since the 2012-2013 academic year, and set out such information by department in tables of the same format as Table 2;
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Table 2 department: Total Number Number Total Number Number number Academic of male of female number of male of female of year local local of local non-local non-local non-local students students students students students students 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015
(3) whether it has assessed if the local education policy has placed emphasis on the development of certain subjects; if the assessment outcome is in the affirmative, of the details and justifications for that; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, whether it will enhance the support for certain subjects in the light of the needs of Hong Kong; whether measures are currently in place to encourage students to take STEM-related subjects (such as providing scholarships and programmes for further education, and so on) and to encourage graduates to join relevant industries; if so, of the details;
(4) whether it has estimated the total number of posts and the number of vacancies that will be offered by STEM-related industries in the coming five years; if it has, of the details and a breakdown of the numbers by job nature; if not, whether it will make such an estimation and conduct a review of the relevant education policies based on the outcome; of the existing arrangements for recognition of qualifications for STEM-related industries, as well as the relevant statistics; and
(5) whether the authorities currently have measures in place to increase the proportion of female local students taking STEM-related subjects in HKDSE Examination, as well as the proportion of female local students enrolling in STEM-related degree programmes offered by the UGC-funded institutions; if they do, of the details; if not, whether the authorities will implement specific measures to attract female students to take those subjects; if they will, of the details and timetable?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2899
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President,
(1) Based on the information provided by the Hong Kong Examinations and Assessment Authority, in the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination (HKDSE), the statistics on STEM-related subjects (including Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Science (Mode I: Integrated Science; Mode II: Combined Science), Design and Applied Technology, Information and Communication Technology, and Technology and Living) in the past three years are summarized in Annex 1.
(2) The first-year student intakes of University Grants Committee (UGC)-funded undergraduate programmes in "Sciences" and "Engineering and Technology" by local/non-local, sex and broad academic programme category from the 2011-2012 to 2013-2014 academic years are set out in table below.
First-year Student Intakes of UGC-funded Undergraduate Programmes in "Sciences" and "Engineering and Technology" by Local/Non-local, Sex and Broad Academic Programme Category, 2011-2012 to 2013-2014
Local Students Non-local Students Total As Broad Percentage Academic Academic of Total Programme Year Male Female Sub-total Male Female Sub-total Total Numbers Category of
First-year Intakes Sciences* 1 684 810 2 494 189 186 375 2 869 / Engineering 2011-2012 and 1 861 754 2 615 303 155 457 3 073 / Technology Total 3 545 1 564 5 109 491 341 833 5 942 35.0% Sciences* 3 163 1 964 5 127 467 373 840 5 967 / Engineering 2012-2013^ and 3 310 1 514 4 824 501 305 805 5 630 / Technology Total 6 473 3 478 9 951 967 678 1 645 11 596 34.5% 2900 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Local Students Non-local Students Total As Broad Percentage Academic Academic of Total Programme Year Male Female Sub-total Male Female Sub-total Total Numbers Category of
First-year Intakes Sciences* 1 626 1 078 2 703 293 206 500 3 203 / Engineering 2013-2014 and 1 620 643 2 263 280 147 427 2 690 / Technology Total 3 246 1 721 4 967 573 353 926 5 893 33.5%
Notes:
Since some UGC-funded programmes are mapped to more than one academic programme category (APC), the number of students of these programmes is counted across the APCs concerned on a pro rata basis. Thus, the student numbers of some APCs are presented in decimal figures. In the above table, the relevant figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. As such, figures may not add up to the corresponding totals.
* Include "Biological Sciences", "Physical Sciences", "Mathematical Sciences" and "Computer Science and Information Technology".
^ To tie in with the implementation of the new academic structure, UGC-funded institutions have admitted two cohorts of students under the old and new academic structures in the 2012-2013 academic year.
(3) and (5)
To cater for different learning needs of students and to facilitate their whole-person development, the Education Bureau has been promoting the provision of a board and balanced school curriculum for enriching students' learning experiences such that students can build up a strong knowledge foundation at different stages of learning. On life planning education, we have been encouraging students to identify their own strengths and career aspirations. It is desirable for students to choose their elective subjects at senior secondary level according to their own interests and abilities. In this way, secondary school students may articulate smoothly with different studies at tertiary level, and subsequently, they may engage in relevant professions.
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Senior secondary level is an important phase for students to migrate to tertiary education and to workplace. In this migration process, students have to face many challenges related to their further studies, and making career choices and other life-planning decisions. In this connection, the Chief Executive announced, in the 2014 Policy Address, the strengthening of life planning education. Starting from 2014-2015 school year, the Education Bureau provides a recurrent subsidy of about $500,000 to each public sector school operating classes at senior secondary levels to strengthen life planning education with a view to supporting students to prepare for further studies and career development.
At present, boys and girls have equal opportunities in studying science- and technology-related subjects. Students of both genders may study the different subjects in the Science, Technology and Mathematics Education Key Learning Areas, and apply for the relevant Category A subjects in the HKDSE Examination.
The Education Bureau has advised schools via the Education Bureau Circular on The Principle of Equal Opportunities that, among others, the Sex Discrimination Ordinance is in force and the Code of Practice on Education issued by the Equal Opportunities Commission is also put into effect. Schools should not subject their students to discrimination or unfair treatment due to their race, nationality, sex, disability, and so on. All students should have equal opportunities in the access to education. All along, the Education Bureau has been organizing seminars of various nature for parents and teachers introducing the rights and obligations of students. We aim at enabling the different stakeholders to understand that Science, Technology, Mathematics and Engineering related subjects are equally suitable for both boys and girls. We also stress that students' choice of subjects should be on merit of their aptitudes and aspirations, and gender is not a factor for consideration.
The Government is committed to providing our young people with quality and diversified study and career pathways with multiple entry and exit points, thus enabling them to unleash their full potential in accordance with their interests, aptitudes and abilities. At present, 2902 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
there are 19 local degree-awarding institutions in Hong Kong offering around 300 undergraduate programmes. These programmes cover a variety of disciplines, including STEM subjects. Students may apply for different disciplines in accordance with their aptitudes and abilities, and admission is conducted according to fair and merit-based principles. On the basis of the foregoing, the Government currently has no special policy to encourage students (including female students) to study in a particular discipline.
In fact, programmes related to STEM have always been among the mainstream programmes offered by the local higher education institutions. Taking first-year first-degree (FYFD) programmes funded by the University Grants Committee as an example, in the 2013-2014 academic year, 17 089 students were admitted to FYFD places, of which 5 893 (33.5%) studied programmes related to Sciences and Engineering & Technology.
Besides, through the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government Scholarship Fund and the Self-financing Post-secondary Education Fund, the Government currently administers a variety of scholarships for qualified outstanding post-secondary students in different disciplines (including programmes related to STEM), so as to encourage them to pursue excellence in academic and other areas. The Education Bureau currently does not provide any discipline-specific scholarships.
(4) The Education Bureau has no information on the total number of posts and the number of vacancies that will be offered by STEM-related industries. The Qualifications Register (QR) is a centralized online database containing information on quality assured qualifications and their operators. As at end-October 2014, there were 1 611 qualifications and their associated education and training programmes on the QR relating to the four fields of STEM (including qualifications and programmes with "Current" (that is, the registration validity period of the qualification is valid) and "Prospective" (that is, the registration validity period of the qualification has not yet started) registration status). These qualifications are categorized by Primary Areas of Study/Training including "Biological, Physical and Mathematical Sciences", LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2903
"Computing and Information Technology", and "Engineering and Technology". The number of qualifications under each of the three aforementioned Primary Areas of Study/Training and at each Qualifications Framework Level are set out at Annex 2. We do not have information on the number of people who have completed these programmes.
Annex 1
HKDSE figures of the past three years for subjects related to "STEM"
(i) Subject: Mathematics Compulsory Part
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 34 275 5 168 35 024 3 248 2013 34 360 4 956 34 473 3 195 2014 32 236 5 088 32 016 3 344
Subject: Mathematics Extended Part (Calculus and Statistics)
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 4 039 553 3 308 562 2013 3 334 602 2 414 393 2014 2 577 645 1 786 460
Subject: Mathematics Extended Part (Algebra and Calculus)
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 5 532 1 869 2 559 674 2013 4 854 1 697 1 880 539 2014 4 002 1 548 1 526 462
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(ii) Subject: Biology
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 7 685 1 213 9 247 1 472 2013 7 259 1 217 9 296 1 635 2014 6 835 1 244 9 266 1 505
(iii) Subject: Chemistry
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 9 553 2 174 7 469 1 406 2013 8 950 2 213 6 969 1 474 2014 8 513 2 248 6 852 1 609
(iv) Subject: Physics
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 10 651 2 776 4 582 863 2013 10 060 2 827 3 947 839 2014 9 215 2 601 3 652 908
(v) Subject: Integrated Science
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 134 6 157 13 2013 144 4 169 16 2014 81 - 93 11
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(vi) Subject: Combined Science
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 4 001 331 3 695 356 2013 3 289 256 2 903 226 2014 2 226 136 1 783 88
(vii) Subject: Design and Applied Technology
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 561 4 206 1 2013 580 4 204 3 2014 493 2 177 5
(viii) Subject: Information and Communication Technology
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 5 570 441 2 348 139 2013 5 283 418 2 204 124 2014 5 068 345 1 815 140
(ix) Subject: Technology and Living (Food Science and Technology)
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 27 - 250 11 2013 26 - 209 13 2014 21 - 241 17
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Subject: Technology and Living (Fashion, Clothing and Textiles)
Day School Candidates Level 5 or above Level 5 or above Year Male Female Male Female 2012 16 - 44 1 2013 21 - 81 3 2014 16 - 54 1
Annex 2
Number of qualifications relating to the four fields of science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) on the QR (as at end-October 2014)
Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5 Level 6 Level 7 Total Biological, Physical and 1 0 9 49 113 72 26 270 Mathematical Sciences Computing and Information 359 57 58 93 40 30 2 639 Technology Engineering and 32 129 125 149 130 114 23 702 Technology Total 392 186 192 291 283 216 51 1 611
Notes:
(1) All qualifications registered on the QR must be quality assured by a suitable accrediting organization including the Hong Kong Council for Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications or self-accrediting institutions.
(2) The QR does not provide information on the qualifications possessed by individual persons nor does it contain information on the number of students.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2907
Handling of Construction Waste
15. DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Chinese): President, according to the "Hong Kong Blueprint for Sustainable Use of Resources 2013-2022" (Blueprint) published by the Environment Bureau in May last year, the construction waste loads to landfills have dropped by some 60% after the imposition of charges for the disposal of construction waste in Hong Kong. However, the latest data show that in 2011 and 2012, the construction waste loads delivered to landfills for disposal were still as high as about 3 300 and 3 400 tonnes per day respectively, accounting for 25% of the total waste intake per day. In connection with the improvement in the handling of construction waste, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the respective loads of construction waste delivered to landfills and public fill reception facilities in 2013; if the relevant information is not available, when it will conduct a survey on this and announce the figures;
(2) as it was stated in the Blueprint that the Government would carry out trade consultation from 2013 to 2015 regarding review of construction waste charging scheme, of the progress of such consultation;
(3) apart from charging for the disposal of construction waste, whether the authorities have other plans or measures to reduce the generation of construction waste; if they do, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(4) whether it will allocate more resources and enhance co-operation with the construction trade to promote green construction, including introducing low carbon elements in construction processes, reducing the generation of construction waste, using green building materials, and recycling construction waste; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(5) whether it will study the adoption of other measures to facilitate the recycling of construction waste; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
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(6) given that sand and silt often drip from skips during transportation of construction waste and, even worse, wood panels and other large-size construction waste have fallen from skips, thereby posing hazards to other road users, whether the Government has any plan to impose regulation by requiring that skips must be of closed type; if it has such plans, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President, as indicated in Hong Kong: Blueprint For Sustainable Use Of Resources 2013-2022 published by the Environment Bureau last year, our waste stream contains a treasure trove of useful resources which should be reused, recovered and recycled as far as possible so as to achieve "Use Less, Waste Less". In general, construction and demolition materials of different nature are abandoned from our daily construction works, most of which are reusable inert materials such as rock, rubble, boulder, earth, soil, sand, concrete, asphalt, brick, tile, masonry and used bentonite. We encourage on-site sorting by works contractors who may then sort out the reusable inert materials for transfer to the fill banks for reuse in other suitable projects. These materials are generally referred to as "public fill" or "inert construction and demolition materials". Construction waste, which contains non-inert construction and demolition materials, will be disposed of at landfills.
Regarding the respective parts of the question:
(1) In 2013, the landfills received 1.311 million tonnes of construction waste while the public fill reception facilities received 12.943 million tonnes of public fill (or inert construction and demolition materials).
(2) to (5)
The Government has been monitoring the effectiveness of the Construction Waste Disposal Charging Scheme and its operation. A review of the charging levels based on the "polluter pays" principle is underway in order to maintain its effectiveness on waste reduction. We believe that other than creating economic incentive through quantity-based charging, promoting waste reduction also requires appropriate complementary measures so as to encourage generating less and promoting recycling in the spirit of "Waste Less, Pay Less". In this connection:
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(i) At present, construction and demolition materials of different nature are subject to different charging levels: lowest at the public fill banks, highest at the landfills and somewhere in-between at the sorting facilities which receive construction and demolition materials containing more than 50% by weight of inert construction and demolition materials. Such differential charging is to encourage sorting for reusable inert construction and demolition materials. We will continue to enhance communication with the trade and encourage the use of the sorting facilities in order to minimize the disposal of construction and demolition materials at the landfills.
(ii) The Government has been promoting green building within the construction industry and has already introduced measures to promote low carbon, low emission and the use of recycled materials in public works projects, with a view to achieving the target of "energy conservation and waste reduction". In respect of waste reduction, the Government promotes the use of recycled construction materials (for example, recycled fill materials, recycled sub-base materials and paving blocks made of waste glass) in public works projects and encourages the adoption of green site offices to avoid generating additional construction waste. Moreover, since April 2011, the Government required that submission of the Building Environmental Assessment Method (BEAM) Plus Assessment awarded/issued by the Hong Kong Green Building Council is one of the prerequisites for the granting of gross floor area concessions for new private development projects. The BEAM Plus Assessment sets out various standards for green construction design, building and management, and so on, and encourages the construction industry to use precast units that are low carbon and generate less waste, recycled materials, recover construction waste, and so on.
(iii) The Government will continue to support various studies in relation to exploring the feasibility of recycling different materials found in construction waste. For example, in recent years, the Construction Industry Council has been actively researching into the reuse of waste concrete after processing. The relevant study is expected to be completed 2910 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
by end 2014. If the study can successfully lead to applications in concrete or cement mortar, there will be much greater incentive to separate the waste concrete at source.
We are reviewing the effectiveness of the Construction Waste Disposal Charing Scheme and various complementary measures. We will consult the trade at a suitable juncture. Upon the formulation of a comprehensive proposal, we will report the progress to the Panel on Environmental Affairs of the Legislative Council as soon as possible.
(6) As to the mandatory use of fully-enclosed vehicles for carrying construction and demolition materials, we note that design adopting full enclosure may not necessarily meet operational needs. However, the Government has been requesting the industry to take measures to ensure that vehicles carrying construction and demolition materials will not pose any danger to other road users in the course of transportation, and minimize the impact to nearby residents. At present, for insecure loading on vehicles, or object and construction and demolition materials falling or scattering on the road, the Police Force may take enforcement actions under the Road Traffic (Traffic Control) Regulations (Cap. 374G). For dripping of waste water from vehicles, the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) may take enforcement actions under the Public Cleansing and Prevention of Nuisances Regulation (Cap. 132BK).
In order to strengthen the implementation of relevant statutory requirements and the enforcement actions, since August 2013, the Environmental Protection Department, the Police Force and the FEHD have been carrying out joint operations to intercept refuse collection vehicles and dump trucks from time to time at road sections in the vicinity of landfills or fill banks so as to tackle non-compliance cases such as falling and scattering of objects or construction and demolition materials on the road, speeding, overloading and dripping of waste water. As at October 2014, we conducted 126 joint operations, with issue of 139 summons and 608 fixed penalty notices, as well as 224 verbal warnings. We found that the situation of insecure loading on heavy vehicles, dripping of waste water and uncovered buckets of dump trucks has been greatly improved when compared to the early stage of the operation. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2911
According to the statistics from the Civil Engineering and Development Department, as at October 2014, there was a drop of about 75% in the number of dump trucks with uncovered buckets when entering the public fill banks when compared to the early stage of the operation. We will continue to monitor the situation through blitz operations.
Hong Kong's Climate Change Strategy and Action Agenda
16. MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Chinese): President, the Government commissioned a consultancy study in 2008 to assess the impacts of climate change on Hong Kong, and to recommend long-term strategies and measures. The study outcome recommended a reduction in carbon intensity by 50% to 60% by 2020 when compared with the 2005 level. To achieve the target, the study outcome also recommended the adoption of a strategy and action agenda. Subsequently, the Government launched a public consultation in September 2010, and released a report on the public consultation on Hong Kong's Climate Change Strategy and Action Agenda (the Agenda) in April this year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the implementation timetable of the Agenda; the relevant estimates and actual expenditures of various government departments in each of the past five years;
(2) of the work arrangements and workflow (including the work of assignment, distribution, co-ordination, reporting, monitoring and evaluation, and so on) adopted by various government departments for implementing the Agenda; the staffing establishment involved (including the number of additional posts and internal staff deployment); whether they have provided on-the-job training for their staff; if so, of the expenditures involved; whether they have employed people with climate change related qualifications or professional backgrounds; if so, of the entry requirements of the relevant posts; if not, the reasons for that;
(3) of the achievements of various government departments since the implementation of the Agenda; whether the authorities regularly measure the levels of carbon emissions and carbon intensity so as to 2912 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
assess the effectiveness of their work; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; of the latest work progress of various government departments;
(4) given that the Synthesis Report on Climate Change was just released by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in early November this year, whether the authorities will review the various targets for greenhouse gas (GHG) mitigation and climate change adaptation as set out in the Agenda, and make corresponding adjustments in the light of the Report; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(5) given that China and the United States issued the China-United States Joint Announcement on Climate Change in early November this year, whether the authorities will review the common policy objectives, measures and modes of co-operation drawn up with the Pearl River Delta Region in respect of GHG mitigation and climate change adaptation; if they will, of the details and the specific tasks; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President, our reply to the questions raised by Mr Kenneth LEUNG is as follows:
(1) to (3)
Since the Government introduced the "Hong Kong's Climate Change Strategy and Action Agenda" (the Action Agenda) in 2010, actions have been taken by relevant bureaux and departments on various fronts to enhance energy efficiency in buildings, promote green road transport, enhance conversion of waste into energy, and improve future fuel mix for electricity generation, with a view to achieving carbon intensity reduction target of 50% to 60% in 2020 as compared with the 2005 level. At the same time, bureaux and departments have implemented a wealth of adaptive measures and plans to strengthen Hong Kong's capacity in tackling the possible impacts of climate change. In April this year, the Government submitted the consultation report to the Legislative Council Panel on Environmental Affairs to report on the implementation timetable, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2913
progress and outcome of measures as set out in the Action Agenda. Progress in implementing the key measures in the Action Agenda is summarized at Annex.
Relevant bureaux and departments have integrated the implementation measures of the Action Agenda in their respective work portfolios, such as enactment of legislation, updating of standards, development of public transport infrastructure, improving capacity in flood prevention, improving contingency plans for landslip incidents, meteorological monitoring, staff training, and public education. The resources required and staff establishments are met by the concerned bureaux and departments.
The implementation of mitigation measures such as enhancing energy efficiency, promoting green road transport and enhancing the conversion of waste into energy, and so on, as well as adaptation measures such as meteorological monitoring, flood prevention and improving landslip contingency plans, and so on, involve manpower from different professions. Departments concerned have recruited relevant professionals and provided appropriate on-the-job training according to their work requirements.
The Government set up in 2007 the Inter-departmental Working Group on Climate Change (the Working Group) chaired by the Environment Bureau. The Working Group monitors the formulation and carrying out of policies and measures in controlling GHG emissions and in adapting to climate change by relevant bureaux and departments. A recent review indicates that Hong Kong's carbon intensity in 2011 has been reduced by 18.5% from the 2005 level. We will continue to use the Working Group as a platform to monitor the progress in implementing the measures as set out in the Action Agenda.
(4) The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released the Climate Change 2014 Synthesis Report (the Synthesis Report) in November this year. The Synthesis Report reconfirms that warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and it is extremely likely that the human influence is the dominant cause of warming since the mid-20th century. The Synthesis Report points 2914 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
out that it would require sustained reductions in GHG emissions and implementation of adaptation measures in order to ensure that the impacts of climate change remain within a manageable range. We had assessed the impacts of climate change to Hong Kong when setting out policies and measures for climate change mitigation and adaptation in the Action Agenda, and recommended long term strategies and practicable measures according to the actual situation of Hong Kong. We will continue to pursue the measures as set out in the Action Agenda with a view to achieving the carbon intensity reduction target in 2020 and enhancing Hong Kong's adaptive capacity, and to work with the international community to rise to the challenge of climate change.
(5) To tie in with the national target promulgated by the Central People's Government in November 2009 to reduce carbon dioxide intensity (that is, carbon dioxide produced for each yuan of national income) by 40% to 45% by 2020 as compared with the 2005 level, Hong Kong has set out a carbon intensity reduction target of 50% to 60% by 2020 as compared with the 2005 level, which is equivalent to about one-fifth to one-third absolute reduction of our total GHG emissions.
To strengthen exchanges on combating climate change, the Hong Kong/Guangdong Joint Liaison Group on Combating Climate Change (the Joint Liaison Group) was set up under the Hong Kong/Guangdong Co-operation Joint Conference in 2011. The Joint Liaison Group is co-chaired by the Secretary for the Environment and the Director of the Guangdong Development and Reform Commission to co-ordinate the relevant measures and activities on combating climate change, as well as to promote related scientific research and technology development. Under the China-United States Joint Announcement on Climate Change and Clean Energy Cooperation (the Joint Announcement), China targets to peak carbon dioxide emissions (that is, to reach highest carbon dioxide total emissions) in around 2030. The Joint Announcement has provided impetus to the sustained actions by Hong Kong and Guangdong in reducing GHG emissions. We will continue to promote co-operation between the two sides on combating climate change through the work of the Joint Liaison Group.
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Annex
Progress of Implementation of Key Measures in the Action Agenda
(1) Mitigation of GHG Emissions
- Continuous utilization of landfill gas and the gas collected during wastewater treatment
- Launched a $300 million Pilot Green Transport Fund to support transport trades in testing green and innovative transport technologies in March 2011
- Organized the Energy Saving Charter on Indoor Temperature for three years in a row since 2012 to promote community participation in energy conservation
- Full implementation of the Buildings Energy Efficiency Ordinance since September 2012 to enhance energy efficiency of key types of building services installations including air-conditioning installation and lift, and so on.
- Rolled out a three-year programme in stages to conduct energy-cum-carbon audits for about 120 government buildings and public facilities since 2012-2013
- Set up an inter-departmental Steering Committee on the Promotion of Green Building chaired by the Secretary for the Environment to formulate implementation strategies and action plans for promoting green building in public and private sectors in 2013
- Hong Kong's first district cooling system at Kai Tak Development has started to provide more energy efficient cooling service to the main building of the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal and Housing Authority's Ching Long Shopping Centre since 2013
- Tightened the design standards of lighting installations in the Code of Practice for Energy Efficiency of Building Services Installation by 10% to 15% in February 2014
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- Launched a 3-month public consultation in March 2014 on two options of future fuel mix for electricity generation with the objective to reduce carbon emissions from power generation
- Published the "Railway Development Strategy 2014" in September 2014 to recommend the completion of seven new railway projects during the planning period up to 2031
- A new sludge treatment plant is currently under testing and is expected to start operation in early 2015. The plant will convert the heat produced during sludge treatment into electricity, which would not only meet the electricity demand of the plant itself, but also transfer excess electricity to the power grid
- To launch a designated website for Carbon Footprint Repository in 2014-2015 to facilitate listed companies to disclose their carbon audit findings and to share their carbon management experience and practices
- To take forward five railway projects ― the West Island Line, the South Island Line (East), the Kwun Tong Line Extension, the Shatin to Central Link and the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link. The railway network will then cover areas inhabited by over 70% of the population in Hong Kong
(2) Adaptation to Climate Change
- Developing a biodiversity strategy and action plan for Hong Kong
- Continuous monitoring of areas related to climate change including meteorological and climate data, food resources, human health, and so on
- Regularly updating construction related codes, guidelines and design standards for buildings and infrastructure to cope with extreme weather events
- Regularly reviewing the Drainage Master Plan to formulate necessary drainage improvement works for implementation LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2917
- Setting up a flood warning system for flood prone low-lying areas to provide timely alert to relevant departments and local residents of the flood prevention measures, in order to cope with the possible storm surge induced by strong typhoon
- Carrying out an updating study on Probable Maximum Precipitation estimate to model the extreme rainfall conditions and extreme landslide scenario, and improving emergency preparedness planning for widespread natural terrain landslides during very severe rainstorms
- Regularly reviewing the effectiveness of Total Water Management Strategy
- Conducting a planning and feasibility study for a desalination plant in Tseung Kwan O as sea water is a resource not affected by climate change
- Organized capacity building workshops on climate change adaptation tailored for various works departments in 2012, and a climate change adaptation workshop for the financial services sector in 2013 to raise the financial services sector's awareness of the climate change risks posed to business operation and investments
Cost Overruns and Delay of Major Infrastructure Projects
17. DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that in recent months, several major infrastructure projects have experienced significant cost overruns and delay one after another. These projects include the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB) Hong Kong Related Projects, Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), Shatin to Central Link (SCL) and South Island Line of MTR, Liantang/Heung Yuen Wai Boundary Control Point related works, West Kowloon Cultural District, and so on. The amounts of such cost overruns range from a few billions to over 10 billion dollars. Some members of the public query the authorities' ability to control the expenditures and the progress of public works projects. They also worry that the public works projects under planning, including the Multi-purpose Sports Complex (MPSC) at Kai Tak and the Three-Runway System Project at the 2918 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Hong Kong International Airport (TRS Project), may also experience cost overruns and delay. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the following information in respect of each of the aforesaid works projects: (i) the latest cost estimates, (ii) the latest projected completion date, (iii) the projected amount of cost overrun, (iv) the projected amount of supplementary provisions to be sought from the Legislative Council, and (v) the date for submission of application for supplementary provisions to the Finance Committee of this Council (set out in table form);
(2) whether it has assessed the reasons for the cost overruns and delay of the aforesaid works projects, as well as whether blunders on the part of government officials in respect of personnel, finance, administration and policymaking are involved; if so, which government officials should be held responsible, and whether the officials concerned will be required to take the blame for the cost overruns and delay of these projects and resign; if such officials will not be required to do so, of the reasons for that;
(3) whether it has reviewed the existing mechanisms for estimating project expenditures, and for monitoring and controlling the expenditures and progress of works projects, so as to minimize cost overruns and delay; if it has reviewed, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(4) whether it has, in view of the cost overruns in the aforesaid projects, stepped up the risk management of works projects and introduced a pain share/gain share mechanism; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(5) whether it has assessed the impacts of the delay of the aforesaid works projects on Hong Kong's economy and people's livelihood, the exchanges and co-operation between Hong Kong and the Mainland, the international image of Hong Kong, public confidence in the Government's governance, as well as Legislative Council's confidence in the Government's control of public works expenditures; if it has assessed, of the outcome; if not, the reasons for that;
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(6) as some of the aforesaid works projects are cross-border facilities, whether it knows the economic loss to the Mainland and the impacts on Mainland people's livelihood brought by the delay of such projects; whether it has assessed if such delay will affect the Central Government's confidence in the ability and the governance of the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region; if it has assessed, of the outcome; if not, the reasons for that;
(7) whether it has explored methods to enable the aforesaid works projects to catch up with the progress; if it has, of the details of such methods and the additional expenditures involved; if not, the reasons for that;
(8) apart from the aforesaid works projects, of the public works projects cost overruns or delay of which have been confirmed, and the relevant details (including the latest cost estimates, amounts of cost overruns and details of such delay, and so on);
(9) of the latest cost estimates and projected completion date of MPSC currently under planning; whether it has reviewed the planning of the project and taken measures, so as to ensure that neither cost overrun nor delay will occur; if it has reviewed and taken measures, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(10) of the latest cost estimates and projected completion date of the TRS Project; what feasible measures are in place to ensure that neither cost overrun nor delay will occur; whether it will draw up financial contingency plans for implementation when there is cost overrun so that the works can be completed without the need to seek the approval of the Finance Committee of this Council for supplementary provisions;
(11) of the specific measures that it will take to prevent the public works projects under planning from experiencing cost overruns and delay;
(12) whether it has assessed if the manpower supply of various trades of the construction industry in the coming five years can meet the manpower demand of the public works projects under planning; if it has assessed, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
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(13) whether it will review the policy on importation of construction workers afresh, so as to import sufficient construction workers to meet the manpower demand of major infrastructure projects and to reduce construction costs; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, infrastructure investments help boost Hong Kong's economic development, improve people's quality of life and enhance our long-term competitiveness.
Regarding the cost estimates for public works projects, the costs shown in the funding applications submitted to the Legislative Council are only estimates based on available information at the time of funding application. They do not reflect the actual expenditures of a project. Under the principles of prudent management of public finances and close monitoring of project expenditures, the works departments will prepare the most accurate project estimates based on the available information and in light of the latest developments. We will never earmark excessive funding lest internal resources are freezed unnecessarily and the implementation of other projects would be affected. The Government always manages public works expenditure prudently. Our records show that the Legislative Council Finance Committee approved a total of 620 Category A projects with total Approved Project Estimates (APE) amounting to $620 billion over the past 10 years, that is, from 2004-2005 to 2013-2014. Amongst these approved projects, 67 required applications to the Finance Committee for increase in APE which amounted to about $29.2 billion in total. In other words, increased estimates are required in about 10% of these projects and the additional provision amounted to about 4.7% of the total APE. Though there were individual projects that required increase in APE owing to actual circumstances, we generally managed to complete the projects under the Capital Works Programme within the original APE overall.
From our past experience, serious delays in some major projects were mainly caused by unforeseen circumstances, including the handling of related judicial reviews, prolonged public consultations, and so on. As regards the construction period of public works projects, we will allow reasonable extension of time in accordance with contract terms for additional works required, longer-than-expected consultation period, unforeseen ground conditions or inclement weather apart from the delays caused by contractors.
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We will continue to work closely with relevant bureaux and departments to implement infrastructure projects in an orderly manner so as to meet public expectation and help promote economic and social development of Hong Kong.
My reply to the 13 parts of Dr LAM's question is as follows:
(1) The information on the latest cost estimates, the latest projected completion dates, the estimated amounts of increase in APE required to be sought from the Legislative Council and the relevant dates for submitting these applications to the Finance Committee in relation to the local works of HZMB, the Hong Kong Section of the XRL, the SCL and the South Island Line (East) (SIL(E)), the Liantang/Heung Yuen Wai Boundary Control Point and associated works, and the West Kowloon Cultural District works is set out at Annex A.
(2) In general, the main reasons for increases in APE include increases in the project contingency costs, higher-than-expected tender returns, and increased provisions for price adjustments to cover higher-than-expected increases in labour and material costs. Indeed, the increases in tender prices often exceeded that of construction costs in recent years. This might be attributed to the robust construction market and the longer construction periods for major works projects in recent years. Under the circumstances, contractors generally set a higher tender premium to take into account anticipated changes in wages, costs of materials and other basic expenditures, which in turn leads to rising tender returns.
Moreover, a capital works project generally takes several years or even over 10 years to be upgraded from initiation to Category A and, in the process, undergoes numerous revisions in terms of scope and requirements with corresponding changes in project estimate to meet latest development needs and demands raised by the community regarding work procedures and works content during public consultations. There would also be a higher tender premium for major infrastructure projects with long construction periods which are susceptible to the impact of economic cycles. Hence, the project estimates shown in the funding application submitted to the Legislative Council may be higher than the initial estimates.
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There are considerable difficulties in formulating accurate cost estimates for projects with longer construction periods. As mentioned above, under the principles of prudent management of public finances, we do not earmark excessive funding lest the implementation of other worthwhile projects unduly affected.
In case a works project requires an increase in APE, the concerned Policy Bureau will submit funding application to the Legislative Council in accordance with the established procedures with reasons for the increase and latest estimates provided.
For individual projects like the Hong Kong Boundary Control Facilities (HKBCF) of HZMB, its APE has to be increased mainly because the tender prices/estimated tender prices for the works contracts awarded/to be awarded are higher than the estimate when the Government sought approval from the Legislative Council in 2011 due to the surge in wage levels of construction workers, prices of construction materials and machinery, and so on, in recent years. As mentioned in Annex A, the Transport and Housing Bureau will give a detailed account to the Legislative Council Panel on Transport at its meeting in December and then seek funding approval for the increase in the APE from the Legislative Council.
Regarding the Hong Kong section of the XRL, the most important work for the Transport and Housing Bureau now is to press ahead with the implementation of the XRL project for completion as soon as possible, and this would require the full co-operation of the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL). The Government will act in accordance with the Entrustment Agreement as regards the overrun of APE and the parties' responsibility for bearing the relevant costs. In order to avoid affecting the progress of works, the Transport and Housing Bureau will assess at an appropriate juncture the MTRCL's obligations regarding project implementation, works delay and project cost overrun, and will reserve all the rights to pursue the warranties and obligations from the MTRCL. At the same time, the Government appointed in May 2014 an Independent Expert Panel, chaired by a retired judge with two overseas experts in engineering as members, to conduct a thorough examination of the project management and cost control mechanism and practices of the MTRCL, as well as the existing project supervision mechanism LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2923
adopted by the Highways Department (HyD) and the MTRCL. The objective is to identify problems and the reasons behind them, as well as to make recommendations on improvement. The review is expected to be completed within this year. The report will be submitted to the Chief Executive and will be made available to the public.
For SCL, the Government will act in accordance with the Entrustment Agreement as regards the overrun of APE and the parties' responsibility for bearing the relevant costs. In order to avoid affecting the progress of works, the Transport and Housing Bureau will assess at an appropriate juncture the MTRCL's obligations regarding project implementation, works delay and project cost overrun, and will reserve all the rights to pursue the warranties and obligations from the MTRCL.
For SIL(E), as it is an "ownership" project, the MTRCL will be responsible for the financing, design, construction, operation and maintenance of these railway projects and will own the railways. The MTRCL will bear the additional expenditure arising from the delay of the railway works.
(3) and (11)
There are established mechanisms under the Administration for preparing, monitoring and reviewing project estimates. All works departments have set up dedicated committees in accordance with the guidelines of the Development Bureau to review the estimates and monitor the progress of all public works projects under their purview. For large infrastructure projects, the works departments will engage professional engineering consultants, including architects, engineers, quantity surveyors and other cross-discipline professional teams to closely supervise the progress and quality of works.
We will also duly review and introduce measures to further enhance our capacities in estimating project costs, controlling project expenditures and supervising works progress. In this regard, we have commissioned an internationally renowned professor to 2924 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
conduct a study on major infrastructure projects in Hong Kong, with a view to enhancing the accuracy in formulating preliminary cost estimates.
We will continue to keep track of the market trend of the construction industry, and study and formulate effective measures for controlling project costs. We will also closely monitor the works progress to prevent delays.
(4) The Government has been pursuing partnering approach in public works contracts in order to enhance the management efficiency and cost effectiveness of the works contracts as well as adopting risk management mechanisms which are more compatible with the complex construction environment nowadays. Starting from 2009, we have adopted the New Engineering Contract (NEC) form, which emphasizes mutual trust and co-operation, in some pilot projects. The NEC form adopts a pain share/gain share mechanism, with a view to encouraging the contracting parties to commit to the common goal of completing the works at reduced costs and within shorter construction period.
Moreover, we will split mega infrastructure projects into several medium-sized contracts which can be more easily managed, so that difficulties encountered during construction could be handled by various contractors. Further, contractors can choose to participate in form of joint ventures for bidding the public works projects in accordance with relevant provisions to raise their capability of taking forward the projects.
Regarding the cost of the HZMB HKBCF, the HyD has implemented a series of measures to strictly control the project expenditures. When devising the design of the HKBCF, the HyD has optimized and adopted as far as possible cost-effective design and materials for stringent cost control. On tendering and procurement, the HyD has examined in detail the appropriate arrangement and packaging of works. As such, the superstructure works of the HKBCF have been divided into a number of civil, building as well as electrical and mechanical contracts and the scope of the contracts have been LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2925
reduced as far as possible to increase the number of contractors capable of undertaking the works, thus resulting in more competitive tender prices.
Regarding the Hong Kong section of the XRL, the MTRCL Independent Board Committee, established to review the revised schedule for the commissioning of the Hong Kong Section of the XRL, has published two reports. The reports have recommended enhancements to the MTRCL's system and processes, for example, the MTRCL Board should establish a Capital Works Committee to oversee any project involving design and/or construction with a capital value of a certain material size, and so on. Also, as mentioned in the reply to part (2) above, the Government appointed in May 2014 an Independent Expert Panel to conduct a thorough examination of the project management and cost control by the MTRCL, as well as the project supervision mechanism, to make recommendations on improvement.
As for the SCL and SIL(E), please refer to the reply in part (2).
(5) As mentioned above, there are many challenges for the delivery of mega infrastructure projects, rendering that the completion dates for these projects would be more likely to be longer than expected. However, as these projects are aimed at the long-term economic benefits of Hong Kong, the impact of extended project completion date on the short-term economy would be relatively limited.
(6) For cross-border projects, the relevant Policy Bureaux and works departments of the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region maintain close collaboration and liaison with the Mainland counterparts on work progress and co-ordination. While catering to actual demands of the construction works, both parties will from time to time review the project estimates and expected completion dates based on the actual needs, as well as to pay joint and dedicated effort to ensure that the works would be completed within the latest budget and schedule.
(7) We will seek to catch up with the works programmes with appropriate mitigating measures, which will be formulated with due regard to the progress and circumstances of individual projects.
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Regarding Hong Kong section of the XRL, as stated in the MTRCL's progress report, the overall progress of the Hong Kong section of the XRL was 63.6% as at the end of September 2014, broadly comparable to the progress planned in the Programme to Complete (PTC).
The MTRCL estimates the overall cost required for commissioning the XRL project by end 2017 based on estimating the required the risk allowances and additional insurance costs as well as the unit rates adopted, which includes costs required to catch up works progress. Based on the information provided by the MTRCL, the HyD with the assistance of its monitoring and verification consultant (M&V consultant) has largely completed the review of the MTRCL's Cost to Complete (CTC). The HyD and the M&V consultant identified a list of items which have not been included in the CTC or which would need to be reviewed to ensure adequate coverage in the risk allowances. Upon receipt of all relevant information, the HyD and its M&V consultant will conduct further review.
The HyD and its M&V consultant will continue to use appropriate mechanisms to systematically monitor the implementation of the XRL project by the MTRCL. If any progress delay or works deficiency is found, the HyD will urge the MTRCL to follow up and take effective improvement measures accordingly.
The SCL project is implemented under the "concession approach". The MTRCL has been entrusted to provide management and monitoring service to the SCL project. The HyD and its consultant will continue to systematically monitor the implementation of the SCL project. If any progress delay or works deficiency is found, the HyD will urge the MTRCL to follow up and take effective improvement measures accordingly.
The SIL(E), being owned by the MTRCL, is an "ownership" project. The MTRCL will bear the additional expenditure arising from the delay of the railway works and endeavor to catch up with the programme. The HyD will closely monitor the progress of works and the construction situation as well as facilitate the MTRCL in early resolving the problems encountered in the construction works.
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(8) For the some 200 projects under construction, apart from the aforesaid projects, it is expected that three projects would require applications to the Legislative Council for increase in APE in the current Legislative Session. Please see Annex B for details.
Apart from the aforesaid projects, the public works projects with extended completion dates are listed at Annex C.
(9) The Home Affairs Bureau is working on the pre-construction work of the Kai Tak MPSC. Subject to securing funding approval from the Legislative Council for the pre-construction work in early 2015, we hope to complete MPSC by the end of 2020. The project will cost, at a rough estimate, over 25 billion in September 2014 prices. Home Affairs Bureau is reviewing the cost estimates of MPSC. The Government will also continue to consult the stakeholders on various issues of the MPSC project, such as planning, design and management.
(10) The Airport Authority (AA) is reviewing the cost estimates and formulating the financial arrangement proposal for the implementation of the Three-Runway System project, with a view to commissioning the project in 2023. Upon completion of the above works, AA will submit its recommendation for consideration by the Government. Since the above works is still in progress, we are unable to provide the requested information.
(12) and (13)
With the booming construction industry in recent years, the Government and the Construction Industry Council (CIC) are committed to enhancing training for construction workers and publicity so as to attract more new entrants, particularly young people, to the industry. According to the CIC, the number of registered construction workers is increasing. We hope that this rising trend can continue over the coming years to meet the manpower demand of construction workers.
The CIC assesses the manpower demand and supply of construction workers, with due regard for the number of in-service workers and their age distribution as well as training and its limitation, and 2928 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
publishes its findings on a regular basis in order to project the supply of construction workers over the next few years. In addition, the CIC has also projected the demand for construction workers with reference to the forecast construction output. According to the latest report on manpower forecast for construction workers released by the CIC in September 2014, the construction industry still needs additional skilled workers of about 10 000 to 15 000 from 2015 to 2018.
The construction industry needs to import skilled workers in a timely manner, with due regard to the principle of not affecting the employment of local construction workers and not lowering the wages of local workers. This will not only help meet the manpower demand of the industry but will also make room for local in-service skilled workers to nurture local semi-skilled workers.
The CIC set up a Task Force on Short-term Labour Supply(1) (the Task Force) in early 2014 to consider the relevant manpower studies (including the aforementioned manpower forecast report of the CIC), surveys and training schemes. After thorough discussion, 26 shortage trades have been identified by the Task Force. The CIC will duly review the list of shortage trades to reflect the latest market situation and adjust its training measures accordingly to cope with the manpower demand.
After consultation with the Labour Advisory Board, the Labour Department collaborated with relevant Policy Bureaux and departments in rolling out a new arrangement in mid-April this year to expedite the preparatory work for processing applications submitted by contractors of public sector works for importing workers in the 26 shortage trades identified by the CIC under the Supplementary Labour Scheme. The arrangement will save time for administrative work and facilitate timely importation of skilled workers for public sector works with genuine needs, thereby relieving the shortage of skilled workers in the aforementioned
(1) The Task Force comprises representatives of the Hong Kong Construction Association, the Hong Kong Federation of Electrical & Mechanical Contractors Ltd., the Hong Kong Construction Industry Employees General Union, the Federation of Hong Kong Electrical and Mechanical Industries Trade Unions, the Construction Site Workers General Union of the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, Mass Transit Railway Corporation Limited, the Hong Kong Housing Authority and the Development Bureau. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2929
shortage trades for the construction industry on the whole. The Labour Department is processing the related applications for importing workers raised by the concerned contractors. The Government will liaise closely with the industry to review the effectiveness of the arrangement in a timely manner for meeting the existing tight manpower demand in the industry, and introduce appropriate measures as required.
Annex A
Latest Anticipated Latest Cost Date for Submission Projected Increase in the Project Estimate of Application for Completion APE required ($ million) Increase in APE Date ($ million) HZMB related local The APE of the HZMB HKLR was about $25 billion (in projects money-of-the day (MOD) prices). As for the APE of the TM-CLKL, it was about $46.7 billion (in MOD prices)(1). At present, there is no cost overrun for these two projects.
In response to some reports by the media regarding the project cost, the Transport and Housing Bureau indicated in a press release issued on 6 November that as regards the cost for the bridge's HKBCF, the APE in November 2011 was $30.4339 billion. But according to the current preliminary estimate, the APE has to be increased by about $5 billion, mainly because the tender prices/estimated tender prices for the works contracts awarded/to be awarded are higher than the estimate when the Government sought approval from the Legislative Council in 2011 due to the surge in wage levels of construction workers, prices of construction materials and machinery, and so on, in recent years. The HyD is still conducting detailed assessment on the progress of the project and the newly increased cost. When finalized, the Transport and Housing Bureau will give a detailed account to the Legislative Council Panel on Transport at its meeting in December and then seek funding approval for the increase in the APE from the Legislative Council Public Works Subcommittee and the Finance Committee according to the procedures. Hong Kong section of (2) (3) (See part (2) of the reply) the XRL SCL (4) SIL(E) (5) 2930 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Latest Anticipated Latest Cost Date for Submission Projected Increase in the Project Estimate of Application for Completion APE required ($ million) Increase in APE Date ($ million) Liantang/Heung Yuen 24,973.1 2018 8,719.9 The funding Wai Boundary application was Control Point and submitted to Public associated works ― Works Subcommittee Site formation and (PWSC) for Infrastructure Works consideration on 22 October 2014 and originally scheduled for submission to Finance Committee in December 2014. The application is pending further discussion by PWSC. West Kowloon The Government is responsible for the provision of public Cultural District infrastructures and integrated basement to support the whole WKCD (WKCD) project (including hotel/office/residential developments). Given that the facilities of the West Kowloon Cultural District Authority (WKCDA) are scheduled for completion in three batches, the above public infrastructures and integrated basement will also be completed in phases. According to rough estimates, the amount of funding to be sought from the Legislative Council in the coming years for the integrated basement and the public infrastructures both within and without it are about $7 billion, $3 billion and $4 billion (in MOD prices) respectively. A more accurate estimate will only be available at the detailed design stage. According to the latest implementation timetable of the WKCDA, batch 1 facilities are expected to be completed by 2018 while batch 2 facilities will be completed in stages from 2020 onwards. The public infrastructures and integrated basement to be developed by the Government will also be completed on schedule to tie in with the completion of these facilities.
Notes:
(1) This comprises the APE of PWP Item 6846TH Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link (TM-CLKL) ― detailed design, site investigation and advance works of about $1.9 billion (in MOD prices), and PWP Item 6857TH (TM-CLKL) construction works of about $44.8 billion (in MOD prices). LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2931
(2) The MTRCL announced on 11 August 2014 that the CTC of the XRL would be $71.52 billion (additional insurance costs and Project Management Cost included). The estimate is based on the PTC under which the XRL will be commissioned by end of 2017. It is about $6.5 billion more than the Entrustment Cost of $65 billion, and also exceeds the APE ($66.8 billion). Based on the information provided by the MTRCL, HyD, with the assistance of its M&V consultant, has largely completed the review of the MTRCL's CTC. The HyD and the M&V consultant identified a list of items which have not been included in the CTC or which would need to be reviewed to ensure adequate coverage in the risk allowances. Upon receipt of all relevant information, HyD and its M&V consultant will conduct further review.
(3) In May 2014, the MTRCL stated that the new target for the commissioning of the Hong Kong section of the XRL would be by the end of 2017. The HyD has completed its review on MTRCL's proposed PTC. The HyD considers that the PTC could be attained by the MTRCL provided that the target progress is met for the critical contracts and various major conditions are satisfied. The MTRCL's PTC will be our work target and the Transport and Housing Bureau will monitor the MTRCL's implementation of the remaining works against the PTC.
(4) The SCL project is funded by the Government under the "concession approach". The Government and the MTRCL entered into an agreement for entrusting construction, testing and commissioning of the SCL to the latter. According to the agreement, the target commissioning date for the Tai Wai to Hung Hom Section is December 2018 while the target commissioning date for the Hung Hom to Admiralty Section is December 2020.
Due to the suspension of works, re-arrangement of works schedule and sequence, modification of construction methods and implementation of protective measures for the sake of the archaeological work, the MTRCL estimates there has been a cumulative delay of at least 11 months to the relevant construction works, inducing additional construction and other costs of the order of $3.1 billion.
Moreover, in view of the preservation measures in regard to the archaeological discoveries, including in-situ preservation for most structures and remnants of the Song-Yuan period, the additional project cost induced will be another $1 billion, making a total of about $4.1 billion. Regarding two particular remnants that would have significant impact on the construction of To Kwa Wan Station, that is Well J2 and Adit C, the Government has identified various preservation options for the Antiquities Advisory Board's advice concerning the four preservation options for Well J2. Apart from option 1 which will result in a relatively mild additional cost of around $10 million and which would not have anticipated substantial impact on work schedule, three of the options for Well J2 will induce four more months of delay to the SCL project, inducing an additional cost ranging from $800 million to $1.3 billion, depending on which option is chosen.
If the conservation option cannot be finalized by early December 2014, it is estimated that the construction cost will be increased by about $250 million for each month of delay in making the decision. The works will be affected by the corresponding delay.
As the archeological works at the To Kwa Wan Station will incur delay and additional expenditure in various degrees and the contingency of the SCL project does not cover the 2932 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
extended archeological works as well as the construction costs arising from the archeological findings. Given that the current contingency will not be sufficient for the associated expenditure, the Transport and Housing Bureau will seek additional funding from Legislative Council for keep carrying out the works.
For the Hung Hom to Admiralty Section, as it requires co-ordination with other infrastructure works at Hong Kong Island North. Though construction of stations for Island Section and that of the Cross Harbour Section is at the tendering stage, it has a risk in completing the works by the end of 2020 as scheduled.
(5) The SIL(E) is an "ownership" project. The MTRCL will be responsible for the financing, design, construction, operation and maintenance of these railway projects and will own the railways. In accordance with the Project Agreement signed by the Government and the MTRCL, the target commissioning dates for SIL(E) is December 2015. In view of the delay in the underpinning works beneath the Island Line at the Admiralty Station, if the progress has no significant improvement, there is a great risk to the target commissioning by end 2016. The MTRCL will bear the additional expenditure arising from the delay of the railway works.
Annex B
Increase in APE PWP APE Project Title required Number ($ million) ($ million) 5233DS Sludge Treatment Facilities 5,154.4 Being estimated 5045CG District Cooling System at the 3,145.9(1) Being estimated(2) Kai Tak Development 7394CL Sha Tin New Town, Stage 2 ― 11.2 Being estimated Servicing and Extension of Pai Tau Village in Area 6A
Notes:
(1) On the basis of the latest development schedule of Kai Tak Development (KTD), the project cost for all phases (including the remaining works under Phase III) is estimated to be $4,945.5 million in MOD prices. Funding approval from the Legislative Council has been secured for Phases I, II and IIIA of the project at an APE of $3,145.9 million in MOD prices.
(2) We plan to seek funding approval from Legislative Council for the remaining works under Phase III, which are estimated to be $1,799.6 million in MOD prices, by phases from 2015 to 2017 depending on the development schedule of KTD.
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Annex C
PWP Original Latest Estimated Project Title Number Completion Date Completion Date 3013NT Conversion of Aqua Privies into Dec 2013 Dec 2014 Flushing Toilets ― Phase 7 3016NB Reprovisioning of Cape Dec 2014 Nov 2015 Collinson Crematorium 3049RG Public Library and Indoor Jun 2013 Dec 2015 Recreation Centre in Area 3, Yuen Long 3109KA Construction of Trade and Dec 2014 Apr 2015 Industry Tower in Kai Tak Development Area 3266RS Redevelopment of Victoria Park Dec 2014 Jul 2015 Swimming Pool Complex 5172DR Organic Waste Treatment End 2016 Mid-2017 Facilities Phase 1 5233DS Sludge Treatment Facilities Phase 1: Nov 2013; Phase 1: Jan 2015;
Phase 2: Dec 2016 Phase 2: Dec 2016 5258RS Development of a Bathing Beach Nov 2014 The works under the at Lung Mei, Tai Po Lung Mei Bathing Beach project has been temporarily suspended since September 2013 due to a judicial review case. As the relevant legal proceeding is still ongoing, it is uncertain at the moment as to when construction works will be resumed. The relevant departments will review and assess the situation from time to time. 2934 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
PWP Original Latest Estimated Project Title Number Completion Date Completion Date 8008MA Redevelopment of Caritas Jun 2014 Mar 2015 Medical Centre, Phase 2 8094EB Redevelopment of Ying Wa End 2016 Feb 2018 Girls' School at Robinson Road, Hong Kong Kwun Tong Line Extension (KTE) (1)
Note:
(1) In addition to the SIL(E), the KTE is an "ownership" project. The MTRCL will be responsible for the financing, design, construction, operation and maintenance of these railway projects and will own the railways. According to the Project Agreement signed by the Government and the MTRCL, the target commissioning date for the KTE is August 2015. Regarding the progress of works, as the excavation works for the platform tunnel between the East and West concourses of the Whampoa Station is still in progress and facing the uncertainty in encountering varying geological conditions underground, there are still risks to the target commissioning at mid-2016. At present, the MTRCL has no indication of cost overrun for the KTE.
Catering Services for Students
18. DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Chinese): President, currently, quite a number of whole-day primary schools and secondary schools arrange lunch suppliers to provide lunch for students at school. As the obesity rate among students in the 2011-2012 school year was as high as 20.9%, some parents are of the view that the Government should stringently monitor the quality of the lunch provided by lunch suppliers in order to safeguard the health of students. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether lunch suppliers are required to set out, for students' reference, the nutritional content of the food items on the menus provided to the students; if so, of the content of such requirements; if not, the reasons for that;
(2) given that some lunch suppliers call certain food combinations on the menus "nutritional meals" or "healthy meals", whether the authorities have conducted sample checks to ascertain if the nutritional content of such combinations meet the relevant standards in the Nutritional Guidelines on Lunch for Students issued by the Department of Health (DH); if they have, of the findings; if not, the reasons for that;
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(3) whether the Government will provide lunch suppliers with suggested food combinations for "nutritional meals" and "healthy meals" for their reference; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(4) of the obesity rate among students in the 2012-2013 school year; what new plans the Government has in place to encourage students to choose lunch food that meets the principle of a balanced diet, complemented by regular exercise, with a view to bringing down the obesity rate among students?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, the Government attaches great importance to healthy eating and weight issues concerning children. In 2008, a Steering Committee on Prevention and Control of Non-Communicable Diseases, chaired by the Secretary for Food and Health, was established and the "Strategic Framework for Prevention and Control of Non-communicable Diseases" was published in the same year. Under the Framework, the Government established a Working Group on Diet and Physical Activity, and launched the "Action Plan to Promote Healthy Diet and Physical Activity Participation in Hong Kong" (the Action Plan) in 2010. The Action Plan outlines 30 specific actions that different government bureaux/departments and relevant parties will work together to promote healthy diet and physical activity participation in Hong Kong over the next few years. It includes actions to promote healthy diet and physical activity participation among students at different levels such as school, family and community, so as to reduce their risk of obesity.
To tackle the problem of childhood obesity in Hong Kong, the DH has been running the [email protected] (ESS) Campaign since the 2006-2007 school year to raise public awareness of and attention about healthy eating of children, and to create an environment conducive to healthy eating in schools and the community. Under the ESS Campaign, an ESS Steering Committee has been set up by the DH to provide comprehensive guidance and advice to the ESS Campaign. Members include representatives from relevant government departments, professional bodies, the education sector and the Committee on Home-School Co-operation. Moreover, a standing working group on suppliers of healthy lunch in schools has been set up under the Steering Committee to regularly discuss and exchange views with the lunch suppliers on how to provide healthy, delicious and nutritious lunch to students.
2936 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
The whole ESS Campaign adopts multi-pronged strategies including alliance building, publicity and advocacy, education, as well as research and evaluation to improve the nutritional environment in schools. The ESS Campaign has been favourably received by schools, students and parents. In the 2013-2014 school year, the major activities under the ESS Campaign attracted the participation of over 450 primary schools (including special schools), accounting for about 70% of the total number of primary schools in Hong Kong.
Against the above background, my reply to the four parts of the question is as follows:
(1) The food items on the menus provided by lunch suppliers to students are not subject to the regulation of the Food and Drugs (Composition and Labelling) Regulations (Cap. 132W) (the Regulations). Besides, the nutrition labelling requirement under the Regulations is not applicable to food items provided to students by suppliers if such food items are non-prepackaged, or if they are prepackaged but fall under the exemption under subsections 2 or 15 of Part 1 of Schedule 6 to the Regulations (that is, prepackaged food sold at a catering establishment which is usually bought for immediate consumption; and prepackaged food sold to a catering establishment as a single item). Nevertheless, the Centre for Food Safety of the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department has all along been enhancing the knowledge of the citizens on the nutrient values of food through various means and channels, including the design and launch of an online searchable database to provide nutrient data of commonly consumed food items which are of relevance and interests to the community.
(2) and (3)
On top of the ESS Campaign, the EatSmart School Accreditation Scheme (ESAS), a project to improve and strengthen the nutritional environment in schools, was jointly launched by the DH and the Education Bureau since the 2009-2010 school year. To attain accreditation status, the schools need to formulate healthy eating policies and measures, as well as foster full co-operation amongst schools, parents and food suppliers with a view to effectively implementing the nutritional requirements laid down by the DH LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2937 regarding the quality of lunches and snacks to be supplied in the schools. This serves to ensure that a "nutrition friendly" learning and nurturing environment is in place for school children. In addition, schools are also required under ESAS to establish an effective mechanism of monitoring nutritional quality of food and following up on related matters. For example, they are advised to conduct checks at least four times in a school year, each covering five consecutive school days, to find out if the lunch boxes comply with "Nutritional Guidelines on Lunch for Students" (the Guidelines). They should keep record of such checking and inform lunch suppliers of their observations for improvement. Participating schools will also receive professional support from the DH. Upon fulfilment of the specified objective criteria, these schools will attain an accreditation status for a validity period of three years. Within the accreditation period, the schools are required to confirm with the DH annually of their continuous commitment to implement relevant measures relating to the prevailing accreditation criteria. If necessary, the schools should also accept visits made by the DH officers and produce to the DH updated documents (for example, relevant parts of the contracts signed with lunch suppliers, lunch menus from the past three months, records of lunch checks, documents of feedback issued to lunch suppliers, and so on) in order to maintain validity of the accreditation status. As at October 2014, over 220 primary schools (about one third of all primary schools in Hong Kong) have signed up with ESAS, and 103 of them have successfully attained accreditation status.
In the promotion of healthy school lunch, the DH has also provided many resources and assistance, as follows:
The Guidelines
The DH requires that the schools should regard the contents of the Guidelines as the benchmark of balanced nutrition to be provided to primary and secondary students by lunch suppliers, a core component specifying the quality and quantity of food in the contracts signed between schools and lunch suppliers, as well as an important basis for schools to monitor the performance of lunch 2938 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
suppliers within the contract period. The Guidelines have been incorporated into notices and other guidelines issued by Education Bureau to require the primary and secondary schools in Hong Kong to provide healthy lunch to students accordingly. Overall speaking, the Guidelines aim to ensure that students are served with a nutritionally balanced school lunch that promotes normal growth and development. In line with the recommendations made by the World Health Organization, the objectives of the Guidelines are:
- to achieve energy balance and a healthy weight - to increase consumption of fruits and vegetables - to limit intake of total fats - to limit intake of sugar - to limit intake of salt (sodium)
The recommendations in the Guidelines are divided into two parts, which should be implemented simultaneously. Part one specifies the quantity of major food items to be included in a school lunch so as to provide ideal and balanced lunch meeting the daily nutritional needs of a student. Part two specifies the quality of a lunch box and the extra food items attached to it, with the primary aim to prevent students from consuming too much fat, sugar and salt (sodium).
Handbook of Selection of Lunch Suppliers
The Handbook of Selection of Lunch Suppliers (the Handbook) provides concrete assistance for schools and parents in choosing their lunch suppliers at the start of a new school year. Amongst others, it recommends that thorough consideration should be made when choosing lunch suppliers, and that such consideration should cover: the nutritional value of the lunch, the effort of suppliers to promote healthy diet among students, the eagerness of suppliers to take environmental protection measures, their scale of operation and track record, food hygiene, impressions after plant visits, and so on. It is not advisable to overly emphasize on the performance of tasting sessions and pricing of meals.
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Database of School Lunch Suppliers
The DH has invited lunch suppliers to provide information on whether they are able and willing to provide lunch in compliance with the Guidelines, and such information has been compiled into the "Database of School Lunch Suppliers". Up until now, over 30 lunch suppliers have had their information uploaded to the thematic website of the ESS Campaign. This initiative can increase transparency, and assist schools and parents in their search for suitable lunch suppliers.
Workshops
The DH organizes various types of nutrition workshops such that principals, teachers and lunch suppliers will be more confident and capable when implementing healthy diet policies on campus, understand the nutritional needs of students, have better command of the standards as listed out in the Guidelines, and use the educational resources provided by the DH in a more effective manner. Besides, workshops are organized by the DH at the beginning of every school year to give principals and teachers a better understanding of the application of the Handbook.
(4) According to the record of the Student Health Service (SHS) of the DH, the detection rate of overweight (including obesity) for primary school students in the 2011-2012 school year was 20.9%, and 20.8% for the 2012-2013 school year. There has not been an upward trend for four consecutive years.
The SHS Centres of the DH provide health assessments, individual counselling and health education including information on healthy lifestyle, balanced diet and physical activities for primary and secondary school students. The health assessments include annual body height and body weight measurements and detection of overweight or obesity problems for each participating student. Students found to be overweight or obese would receive individual counselling by dietitians under the SHS. Subject to individual conditions and needs, the student may be referred to the paediatric specialists of the Hospital Authority for follow-up. Since 2009, the SHS has been notifying schools the total number of their students 2940 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
who were assessed by the SHS as overweight and obese in the last school year on an anonymous basis together with relevant information on healthy diet for children and weight problems. This aims to support the development of a healthy school environment, so as to encourage the schools to facilitate their students to nurture healthy lifestyles by adopting healthy dietary habits and regular physical activities. Moreover, the Adolescent Health Programme of SHS provides outreach services to participating secondary schools, which include basic life skills training and topical programmes on balanced diet, and so on.
Subject of Liberal Studies Under New Senior Secondary Academic Structure
19. MRS REGINA IP (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that an experienced teacher of the subject of Liberal Studies (LS) for senior secondary education has pointed out that the performance samples of those candidates who achieved the excellent result of Level 5 in the LS subject of the 2014 Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education (HKDSE) Examination, recently published by the Hong Kong Examinations and Assessment Authority (HKEAA), have displayed a distinct anti-government political attitude and showed that such candidates have failed to achieve the assessment objective that the candidates should be able "to consider and comment on different viewpoints in their handling of different issues" set out in the assessment framework of the LS subject. That teacher has also queried that the personal political stance of the markers might have influenced their assessment of the candidates. In addition, there are views that while one of the aims of the LS subject is to develop students' critical thinking skills, the term "critical thinking" has been translated into Chinese as "批判性思考" which makes students tend to be critical of others' views. Notwithstanding the recent translation of the term as "明辨性思考" by the Education Bureau, this new translation has not been adopted in the publications and website of Education Bureau across the board. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether Education Bureau will conduct a review to see if the assessment standards adopted for the examination of the LS subject are too vague, and whether it will take measures to prevent markers' assessment of the candidates from being affected by their personal political stance; if it will, of the timetable for conducting such a review and taking such measures; if not, the reasons for that; LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2941
(2) whether Education Bureau will take measures to clarify further the correct Chinese translation for "critical thinking" being "明辨性思 考", and request all departments under Education Bureau and all related organizations to use this Chinese translation uniformly; if it will not, of the reasons for that; and
(3) as an Associate Professor of the Philosophy Department of the University of Hong Kong has pointed out that critical thinking should not be confused with being argumentative or being critical of other people, and that critical thinking skills should enable a person to understand the logical connections between ideas and to put the information collected into good use for analysing a subject in a comprehensive manner, whether Education Bureau will make reference to the explanation of this scholar and review its current description of the meaning of the term "critical thinking"; if it will not, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, with regard to the questions raised by Mrs Regina IP, the replies are as follows:
(1) There are clear assessment objectives for Liberal Studies. Based on the assessment requirements of each question, a level-wise marking guideline (with descriptions of the performance level and examples of answering approaches) is developed to illustrate the marking standard, and sample scripts are also provided for markers' reference. Similar to all other subjects, before and in the course of marking, the HKEAA has established rigorous procedures and mechanism for ensuring the marking standard. The Chief Examiners and the Assistant Examiners as well as the Onscreen Marking System will closely monitor the performance of markers.
For those questions requiring candidates to express their own stance, the key marking consideration is not the stance but the sufficiency and organization of their arguments. All appointed markers in the HKDSE Examination are professional teachers. Before marking, they need to go through the training and qualifying stages. Random check-marking in the course of marking is conducted to ensure that the marking standard is adhered to. Markers' political orientation and political affiliation (if any) should not affect their professional judgment in the marking exercise.
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Besides, double-marking has been adopted in Liberal Studies. Each marker is only responsible for marking one question in the paper and each question is marked separately by two markers. If the mark discrepancy between the two markers is great, the system will distribute the script to a third marker for marking. If there is a continuing discrepancy, the system will distribute the script to the Chief or Assistant Examiner for a fourth marking. Therefore, each question in an answer script might be marked up to four times by at most four markers (including the Chief or Assistant Examiner). For the Liberal Studies Examination, as each candidate has to answer four questions, his/her script will be marked up to 16 times by at most 16 markers (including the Chief or Assistant Examiner).
Moreover, the HKEAA will explain the assessment requirements, marking standard and candidates' performance through publishing the Examiner's Reports, organizing briefing sessions for teachers and providing samples of different levels of performance after the examination every year. After the marking process, markers are invited to indicate their views on the question papers and the marking process in the markers' reports. The HKEAA will conduct a questionnaire survey to solicit views from schools on the examinations of different subjects every year. Besides, the HKDSE Subject Committees under the HKEAA will conduct regular meetings to review the question papers and the assessment mechanisms.
The second stage of the New Academic Structure (NAS) Medium-term Review is now in progress, including students' learning experiences in the whole-school curriculum, the impact of the NAS on students' further studies, the implementation of curriculum and assessment at the school level (including school-based arrangements), and the implementation of curriculum and assessment of individual subjects (including Liberal Studies). The proposed recommendations would be made according to student-centred and professional principles.
(2) and (3)
According to the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (5th ed.) (2007) (《現代漢 語詞典》) edited by the Lexicographic Section of the Institute of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2943
Linguistics, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, the meanings of "批 判" are "分析判別，評論好壞" or "對錯誤的思想、言論 或行為做系統的分析，加以否定". Meanwhile, the Chinese terms of "批判思維" or "批判思考" have been widely adopted on the Mainland, in Taiwan and Macao (please refer to Annex 1 for examples). In Hong Kong, the Chinese term "批判性思考" has been commonly used by the education sector (please refer to Annex 2 for examples).
According to our recommendation, students should master numerous skills during their learning of critical thinking, namely collating relevant information, grasping facts, distinguishing between facts and opinions, conducting objective analysis, and making well-grounded exposition and comment. However, there are some public misconceptions of the Chinese term "批判性思考" which is being perceived as negative criticisms or only for the sake of being critical. Thus, Education Bureau agrees to adopt the Chinese term "明辨性思考" as the translation for "critical thinking", alongside the Chinese term "批判性思考" and this practice can reassure the education sector that it is not a new skill being introduced to replace the existing one. For instance, the composite term "批判／明辨 性思考能力" has been extensively adopted in the Basic Education Curriculum Guide ― To Sustain, Deepen and Focus on Learning to Learn (Primary 1-6) (2014) to facilitate educators and the public to understand the emphasis of the term.
I would like to reiterate that the abovementioned exposition of "critical thinking" has always been adopted by the Education Bureau in teacher training activities whenever they are related to the development of students' thinking skills. Also, teachers of Liberal Studies already have a thorough understanding of the exposition. Our description of critical thinking is no different from the view of the mentioned Associate Professor of the Department of Philosophy of the University of Hong Kong. In future curriculum documents and training activities, Education Bureau will adopt the term "明辨 ( 批 判 ) 性思考能力 " as the Chinese translation of "critical thinking".
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Annex 1
Examples from the Mainland, Taiwan and Macao
Mainland: "批判思維"／"批判思考" - 溫家寶：解放思想和改革開放將永不停止，2008年 3 月 18日
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Taiwan: "批判思考" - National Academy for Education Research: 雙語詞彙、學術名詞暨辭 書資訊網 ─ 王國華 (2000)：批判性思考 Critical Thinking
Macao: "批判思考" - DSEJ 教育暨青年局《澳門青年政策(2012-2020)諮詢總結報告》 (2013): "...... 把批判和獨立思考納入政策願景； 在相關措施中增加批判和獨立思考的內容...... " - 何順文，General Education Programme, University of Macau
"PHIL1115 ─ 本科目介紹合理而正確地思維的基本原則、要 求、技巧和訓練方法。重點介紹批判思考、正確推理和合理論 證的基本問題、觀點、方法和技巧，以及從批判思考的重要性 和必要性，有效論證的規則，合理的演繹和歸納推理...... " - Associacao Das Escolas Catolicas De Macau "教學人員評核準則": "...... 課節設計能由淺入深，以開放性問題誘發批判性思考，擴 展延伸問題...... "
Annex 2
Examples from Hong Kong
- 顧伊麗、何德芳、侯傑泰(2010)，《教育學報》第38卷第1期 (Vol. 38 No. 1)，頁61-69: 〈批判性思考課程：直接講授法與議題探究法的比較〉 - Critical Thinking Web 思方網：[H01]思考方法入門【Dr Joe LAU, Department of Philosophy, University of Hong Kong and Dr Jonathan CHAN, Department of Religion and Philosophy, Baptist University of Hong Kong】
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Work of Tree Management Office
20. MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Chinese): President, the major tasks of the Tree Management Office (TMO) include enhancement of tree risk management, promotion of a quality-oriented approach to tree management, enhancement of the tree complaint handling mechanism and the emergency response arrangement, enhancement of training to raise the professional standard of tree management personnel, and enhancement of public education and community involvement. Regarding the work of the TMO, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) given that while the Government encourages members of the public to help monitor the conditions of the trees in the community, the information on trees in the Tree Register on the relevant government website includes no information on whether the trees have been assessed to be of high risk nor any explanation on the specific circumstances under which the trees are described as suffering from "cavity" and "decay", and so on, rendering it difficult for members of the public to take part in the community monitoring of tree conditions, whether the TMO will make public the information on all those trees that have been assessed to be of high risk; if the TMO will not, of the reasons for that;
(2) of the number of reports on suspected problematic trees received by the TMO in the past three years, the average and longest time taken to process each of such cases and, among them, the number of cases in which qualified arborists performed tree care;
(3) of the respective numbers of trees planted and removed by the authorities in the urban area in the past three years;
(4) of the current number of qualified arborists in Hong Kong; the increase in the number of local arborists in the past three years; whether the TMO has recruited qualified arborists from overseas to work in Hong Kong; if the TMO has, of the reasons for that, and the titles and monthly salaries of the relevant posts; and
(5) whether it will consider introducing legislation to regulate tree management work so as to establish a uniform standard on tree care; if it will not, of the reasons for that?
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SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, under the Government's integrated approach for tree management, the department responsible for the maintenance of a particular area or facility is also responsible for the maintenance of the trees there. These departments will properly manage and maintain the trees under their purview in accordance with the policy guidelines and requirements of the technical circulars and best practices. As for the TMO of the Development Bureau, it is responsible for formulating and steering tree management policies. It also co-ordinates the work of various departments to ensure effective implementation of the "integrated approach" to tree management across departments and facilitates the departments concerned to manage trees under their care in a more effective and professional manner by enhancing public education and community involvement, providing regular training, promulgating best practices, providing arboricultural expertise, conducting relevant researches, handling complex cases and conducting audit checks on tree maintenance.
(1) To further protect public safety and facilitate community-wide surveillance, the TMO has uploaded to the tree website of the Development Bureau relevant information on trees that have undergone detailed inspections but with ongoing improvement works by tree management departments as well as trees that require special attention (for example, Old and Valuable Trees and stonewall trees) since July 2010. To facilitate continued monitoring, the uploaded information includes location, species, conditions of trees and mitigation measures, the inspection department and relevant photos.
For trees identified with "high-risk" by the tree management departments, appropriate mitigation measures, such as pruning, propping or removal, will be taken at once to remove the threat to public safety. As regards the information on tree conditions, which often associated with special knowledge in arboriculture, the TMO only provides commonly used descriptions for trees in the Tree Register to ensure that they can be readily understood by the public.
(2) Given the large number of trees in Hong Kong, the Administration has sought to expand the scope of tree monitoring and, hence, enhance protection of public safety by encouraging the public to assist in monitoring and reporting problematic trees through the Government Service Hotline of 1823. Under the integrated approach, the Hotline would make timely referral of the complaints to the responsible departments, and then would monitor and keep the complainants updated about the case progress. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2949
On receipt of public complaints or enquiries about tree management, the TMO will address the enquiries on tree management and take the lead in resolving complex tree cases that tree management departments may find difficult to handle on their own, for instance, cases that require specialized arboricultural expertise, involve trees of special interest to the community or have cross-departmental implications, and so on.
The TMO will also refer complaints or enquires about specific trees, both simple and complex, to the responsible departments for follow-up actions and responses. Complex cases, such as those that involve a number of departments or private lots, may require more time to resolve.
The TMO directly received a total of about 1 500 cases related to tree management policy and tree matters over the past three years (that is, from January 2012 to October 2014). Cases that involved tree matters under the purview of departments were referred to the relevant departments for follow-up actions within one to two days. As for enquiries on tree management policy, they were answered within 10 working days on average.
On receipt of relevant cases, the TMO will promptly assign its staff with relevant professional arboricultural qualifications to handle the cases. The tree management departments concerned will also promptly arrange qualified contractors and staff to undertake tree risk assessment and tree maintenance work as necessary.
(3) The number of trees planted and removed across the territory in the past three years is as follows:
Financial Number of trees planted Number of trees removed Year 2011-2012 862 000 21 302 2012-2013 814 000 17 060 2013-2014* 806 129 12 767
Note:
* denotes the period till 31 December 2013
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(4) According to the International Society of Arboriculture Hong Kong Chapter, there are 826 Certified Arborists in Hong Kong as at 14 September 2014, as compared with 590 and 738 at the end of 2012 and 2013 respectively. The TMO has not recruited any overseas certified arborists to work in Hong Kong at present.
(5) The Administration maintains a prudent and open attitude towards enacting the proposed legislation on tree management. One of the prerequisites for the enactment of an ordinance on tree management is the adequate supply of qualified personnel with relevant experience to implement the required tree inspection and maintenance works. Therefore it has been the TMO's focuses in the past few years to systematically train up tree management personnel at different levels, standardizing professional requirement and to raise professional requirements. New programmes launched recently included advance diploma and professional diploma by post secondary education institutes. While there has been an increase in the supply of personnel in recent years, the supply of experienced or adequately trained personnel is still in shortage. In addition, we should be cautious on the enactment of an ordinance on tree management, as there will be significant impact on hundreds of thousands of private property owners. The Administration is seeking to enhance the existing system and arrangements in the following ways :
- Apart from continuing to provide information, make appeals and organize professional workshops and seminars for tree management organizations and personnel, the Administration will consolidate the current internal technical guidelines on tree management and distribute them to private/commercial institutions responsible for tree management with a view to sharing experience and enhancing their standards of practice.
- The Administration will review the existing legislation, lease terms, codes of practice and guidelines to ensure that they are effective, particularly in preventing accidents.
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- The Administration will continue to work closely with local training institutions to provide training and education opportunities for those who aspire to join the tree management industry.
To protect public safety, it is crucial to ensure that the general public understands the importance of tree care and the risks of casualty and property damage posed by dangerous trees, and subsequent liability. In fact, under the current common law system, a person will be held liable if a tree in his/her possession causes loss to any other person, while the organizations and persons responsible for the management of the tree concerned may also be liable for negligence and default. We, therefore, consider public education and community surveillance to be critically important and even more practicable.
Services Provided to Residents of Yan On Estate
21. MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Chinese): President, quite a number of residents of Yan On Estate in Ma On Shan have relayed to me that at present, there are only a restaurant, a convenience store and a mini-supermarket in the estate, and the retail services are severely insufficient to meet the needs of the residents. They have also pointed out that educational and elderly services are lacking in the estate. It is learnt that the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA) is now inviting tenders for the tenancy of a shop in Yan Hei House of Yan On Estate, with the designated trades being "Education and Cultural Centre" or "Medicine, Cosmetics and Dried Sea Food". In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) of the respective population of those aged 18 or below and those aged 60 or above in the aforesaid estate;
(2) whether the HA has assessed the needs of the residents before conducting the tender exercise for the tenancy of the aforesaid shop; if it has, of the methodology, date and outcome of the assessment; if not, the reasons for that;
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(3) of the number of tender submissions for the tenancy of the aforesaid shop received by the HA, with a breakdown by the trade intended to be operated by the tenderers (set out in the table below); the trade to be operated by the successful bidder and the monthly rent required to be paid;
Number of tender Trade to be operated submissions Education and Cultural Centre Medicine, Cosmetics and Dried Sea Food
(4) of the number of other shops in Yan On Estate that will be let by the HA, their leasing schedules and the permitted trades;
(5) whether the HA will consider setting up youth or elderly centres in the vacant shops in Yan On Estate to provide service for the residents there; if it will, of the details;
(6) whether the HA knows if the existing shops in Yan On Estate carry medicine, cosmetics and dried sea food; if they do, whether the HA has assessed if the grant of the tenancy of the aforesaid shop to a business operator of such trades will give rise to vicious competition; and
(7) whether Yan On Estate Phase 2 of the public housing development will be completed in 2014 as scheduled, and of the number of units that will be provided under the project; whether the HA has assessed the impact of residents moving in such units on the demand for retail services?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, Yan On Estate is a public rental housing (PRH) estate under the HA. Yan On Estate consists of three domestic blocks (Yan Chung House, Yan Hei House and Yan Yuet House) providing 2 587 PRH flats with intake in 2011. My reply to various parts of the question raised by Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung is as follows:
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(1) At present, there are around 6 200 residents in Yan On Estate. Among them, about 1 500 residents are under the age of 18 (about 24% of total residents in the estate); 3 800 are between the age of 18 to 59 (about 61%); and 900 are over 60 (about 15%).
(2) The HA provides retail facilities in new PRH estates mainly to facilitate local residents to shop for basic daily necessities. The scale and the type of retail facilities to be provided are primarily determined with reference to the population of the estate and the provision of retail facilities in the vicinity.
Yan On Estate is a comparatively small PRH estate with about 440 sq m of retail space available for leasing. Retail facilities, including a convenience store, an eatery shop, a food provision and grocery store and automated teller machine (ATM) facilities had been serving the residents since the initial intake stage. The HA has been maintaining close liaison with shop tenants and residents with a view to providing a better business environment and more shopping choices for residents. Having consulted the District Council Members and residents, the HA decided to convert the empty bay at Yan Hei House into a retail shop (that is, shop No. 1 at Yan Hei House) for the trade of "Medicine, Cosmetics and Dried Sea Food (With Chinese Medicine Practitioner Services)" or "Education and Cultural Centre" to provide additional retail facilities for the residents.
(3) An open rental tender exercise for that retail shop was arranged from 7 to 28 November 2014. A total of 19 tenders were received, with 15 bidding for "Education and Cultural Centre" and four bidding for "Medicine, Cosmetics and Dried Sea Food (With Chinese Medicine Practitioner Services)". As the tenders are subject to vetting, we are unable to provide information of the successful tender at this stage. Upon the completion of vetting, the tender result will be published in Government Gazette and uploaded to the tender awards section in the website of the HA and Housing Department.
(4) Apart from the open rental tender for shop No. 1 at Yan Hei House, there is no vacant premise in Yan On Estate available for leasing.
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(5) At present, there is no venue in Yan On Estate suitable for the use of community services. A community centre, a youth centre and an elderly centre in Heng On Estate nearby are providing services to residents in the district, including those of Yan On Estate.
(6) At present, there are a convenience store, an eatery shop, a food provision and grocery store and ATM facilities in Yan On Estate. The HA attempts to expand the trade to "Medicine, Cosmetics and Dried Sea Food (With Chinese Medicine Practitioner Services)" or "Education and Cultural Centre" to provide more shopping choices for the residents.
(7) The extension proposal of Yan On Estate covers around 1 600 new flats and additional retail facilities. The HA has presented the proposal to the Development and Housing Committee of the Sha Tin District Council on 5 September and 30 October 2013 and obtained their support. In order to address the demand in the community, we have taken into account the increased population and the availability of relevant facilities in the vicinity in planning the provision of retail facilities in the extension. Tentatively, works of Phase 1 is planned to commence in 2016 and complete in 2020, while that of Phase 2 is planned to commence in 2019 and complete in 2024.
Hong Kong People's Declining Proficiency in English
22. MR PAUL TSE (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that the results of a test on English proficiency conducted online earlier have shown that the English proficiency of Hong Kong people has declined continuously in recent years, which is even lower than that of the people of Taiwan, Japan and Korea. It has also been reported that there is also a trend of decline in the English proficiency among legal practitioners, who are required to use English concisely and precisely. For example, a barrister was criticized by a judge in court for inaccurate use of words. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(1) whether it has assessed the reasons contributing to the continuous decline in the English proficiency of Hong Kong people who have taken the English lessons under the current education system;
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(2) whether it has studied how the fact that the English proficiency of Hong Kong people has declined continuously, which is even lower than that of the people of Shanghai, Beijing and Tianjin, affects Hong Kong's competitiveness, its future development and its status as an international metropolis; what measures it has in place to improve this situation; and
(3) of the policies to increase the importance attached to English by members of the public and encourage people who use mobile phones frequently to spare some of their time to listen to or watch English media programmes in place of using mobile phones, so as to increase their exposure to English?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, the test mentioned by Mr TSE must be the English First English Proficiency Index (EF EPI), which we believe may not reliably reflect the English standards of the participating countries or regions. According to the information published by EF online, the test-takers of EF EPI are self-selected and self-recommended and therefore cannot represent the typical English standards of their respective countries or regions. Further, since the tests are administered online and non-Internet users are inevitably excluded, the test results are not necessarily reflecting the English proficiency of the actual population (including students), and thus are not representative.
Our reply to the three questions raised by Mr TSE is as follows:
(1) There are no reliable and generally recognized assessments or tests showing that Hong Kong people's English standards are declining. On the contrary, Hong Kong students' results in public examinations and international English assessments at different key stages of learning have all shown that their English standards are not falling:
- According to the results of the Territory-wide System Assessment (TSA), students' performance in English Language has been steady in recent years. From 2006 to 2013, P3, P6 and S3 students' TSA results were improved by 1%, 1.1% and 0.9% respectively. (P3: from 79.4% in 2006 to 80.4% in 2013; P6: from 71.3% in 2006 to 72.4% in 2013; S3: from 68.6% in 2006 to 69.5% in 2013.)
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- Students' performance in the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education (HKDSE) English Language Examination has been satisfactory over the past three years (from 2012 to 2014), with more than 77% of students attaining Level 2 or above (that is, the basic requirement for admission to sub-degree programmes and relevant civil service posts) (2012: 79.2%, 2013: 77.8%, 2014: 77.9%). Compared with the results in 2013, the percentage of students attaining Level 3 or above (that is, the minimum requirement for admission to local four-year undergraduate university programmes) increased by 4% (2013: 48.8%, 2014: 52.8%); while the percentage of students attaining Level 5 or above also increased by 0.3% (2013: 9.6%, 2014: 9.9%).
- The results of the final year students of local universities who participated in the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) in the 2013-2014 school year also showed a slight improvement. There was a rise in the average score to 6.76, as compared with 6.70 in the 2012-2013 school year (the highest score in IELTS is nine while those awarded six are considered competent users). In 2013, the people of Hong Kong as a whole performed well in IELTS with an average score of 6.4, which was higher than the average scores of the Mainland and neighbouring countries or regions such as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.
- As for employees' English standards, findings from the Business Prospects Survey released by the United States Chamber of Commerce in 2009 showed that 75% of the chamber members found the English proficiency of Hong Kong employees satisfactory, which was significantly higher compared to the 67% in 2004 and the 47% in 2002.
(2) Academics conducted some territory wide sociolinguistic studies in Hong Kong and collected data in 1983, 1993 and 2003 regarding the use of language in Hong Kong society. According to the findings in 2003, nearly 70% of the respondents expressed that they knew English and could speak fluent English. Further, the percentage of respondents who considered their English speaking skills good rose LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2957 significantly from 5% in 1983 to 32% in 2003, whereas the percentage of respondents who considered their English speaking skills excellent rose from 1% in 1983 to 10% in 2003.
The Standing Committee on Language Education and Research (SCOLAR) commissioned the Census and Statistics Department to conduct a thematic household survey in 2012 to study Hong Kong citizens' use of language in different contexts, particularly household, workplace and daily media exposure. The survey results indicated that about 60% of the respondents perceived their English speaking skills as average to excellent, whereas 62% perceived their English writing skills as average to excellent.
Considering Hong Kong's status as an Asian world city and the competition from neighbouring countries/regions, we are committed to raising Hong Kong people's English standards, in order to sustain the competitive edge in English Hong Kong has always possessed.
- At the school level, we provide a flexible and open curriculum framework for English Language to allow schools to stimulate students' learning motivation and develop their ability for the integrative use of listening, speaking, reading and writing skills through diversified activities. A stringent mechanism is also in place in the Education Bureau to ensure the quality of learning and teaching in schools. This includes requiring all newly-recruited teachers to meet the Language Proficiency Requirement, using system assessment to understand the standards of Hong Kong students, requiring schools to conduct self-evaluation, conducting regular inspections by Education Bureau officers, and using TSA school reports to promote learning. Further, the Education Bureau also provides various support measures and resources to enhance serving teachers' professionalism and teaching effectiveness. Such measures include the provision of professional development programmes, school-based support services, learning and teaching resources, and the Native-speaking English Teacher (NET) Scheme. The NET Scheme allows schools to create a language-rich environment and enhance the learning and teaching effectiveness through the collaboration 2958 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
between the local English teachers and the NETs. The Education Bureau is also working in collaboration with different professional bodies to organize English debates, drama, puppet shows, writing and short clip production competitions, so as to provide diversified English activities and related language training for primary and secondary students, thereby maximizing their language exposure and opportunities for learning English.
- SCOLAR proposed in the Final Report of Language Education Review published in June 2003 that language teachers should possess a good command of the language and thorough understanding of the subject knowledge, as well as master the effective pedagogy. SCOLAR launched the Professional Development Incentive Grant Scheme for Language Teachers in April 2004 to encourage serving teachers of the Chinese and English Language subjects (that is, those who joined the teaching profession before the 2004-2005 school year) to take relevant programmes of study to enhance their subject knowledge and pedagogy in the language they teach. Each eligible applicant may receive 50% of the tuition fee of the approved programme of study, subject to a maximum of HK$30,000, upon successful completion of the approved relevant programme of study. (The maximum subsidy level has been adjusted upwards to HK$50,000 starting from 1 September 2014.)
- In 2003-2004, the Language Fund allocated $277.9 million to set up a Task Force of teaching consultants. The Task Force builds a professional language teaching team in the field to promote the curriculum reform. The Task Force's duties include supporting panel chairpersons and curriculum leaders to implement the curriculum reform, assisting teachers to master the new pedagogical approaches relevant to the curriculum reform, setting up regional supporting networks and promoting the continuous professional development of language teachers. The above support is expected to make contributions to school-based curriculum development, teacher and school development, and most importantly to improve students' language learning.
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- In support of the fine-tuned medium of instruction arrangements for secondary schools publicized in June 2009, the Education Bureau announced the launch of a series of support measures in primary schools, one of which being the English Enhancement Grant Scheme for Primary Schools. With the funding from the Language Fund, the Education Bureau provided a time-limited grant for primary schools to formulate school-based English enhancement measures, thereby strengthening English learning and teaching and sustaining the effectiveness upon the completion of the scheme.
- Since the launch of the curriculum reform in 2001, schools have been steadily developing the school-based curriculum to promote students' learning-to-learn capabilities while gathering professional strengths and using resources effectively to enhance the overall curriculum through "Reading to Learn". Such achievements deserve recognition. The Education Bureau formulates "Learning to Learn 2.0" in 2014 to enhance the effectiveness of the curriculum reform. One of the key emphases in curriculum planning is placed on the promotion of reading across the curriculum, which aims to enrich students' reading experiences through different Key Learning Areas and subjects, thereby also enhancing their language proficiency.
(3) The Education Bureau has launched three Information Technology in Education Strategies since the 1998-1999 school year and released the Consultation Document on the "Fourth Strategy on Information Technology in Education", which focuses on student learning, in 2014. All these initiatives are in line with our education reform that aims at promoting life-long learning and whole-person development of students through realizing the potential of information technology. The Education Bureau encourages schools to make good use of mobile technologies and the online learning resources to enhance the learning and teaching of English, while helping students to develop life-long learning capabilities, including language skills, with the use of information technology.
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A wide variety of e-learning resources aiming to support students in learning English outside class time can be retrieved from the Education Bureau website. They include media programmes, for example, the English radio programmes "Teen Time" and "The Sunday Smile", which are joint ventures between the Education Bureau and RTHK. The mobile version of these programmes is also made available so that students can access the programmes by listening to the live broadcast or by downloading them to their mobile devices from the Archive or Podcast. At the same time, "TVNews", an interactive e-learning platform, is also launched on Hong Kong Education City's website to feature selected English news clips every week to increase students' awareness of social issues as well as to enhance their listening and reading skills through enriching their English vocabulary and providing them with examples on how English is used in authentic situations. The table below shows the number of schools with students using the e-learning platform in the last few years:
School year Number of schools 2009-2010 149 2010-2011 140 2011-2012 429 2012-2013 646
Apart from encouraging students to make use of information technology to maximize opportunities for English exposure, SCOLAR has also implemented the English Alliance since the 2008-2009 school year, with the aim to arouse students' interest in learning English, enhancing their English skills and providing opportunities for English exposure. The English Alliance is targeted at primary and secondary students and teachers in Hong Kong. To sustain the appeal to students, different activities are organized every year in the English Alliance, including drama workshops, English storytelling workshops, story writing competitions for junior secondary students, the two-day "English is Everywhere" Fun Day, and the programme "Creating Our Own LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2961
Reading Records" held on the World Book Day on 23 April 2013. SCOLAR also collaborates with different bodies in the community to provide a language-rich environment and English activities. The English Alliance has attracted schools from different districts to participate since its launch. The table below shows the number of beneficiaries (including teachers and students) in the last few years:
School year Number of beneficiaries 2008-2009 360 2009-2010 430 2010-2011 926 2011-2012 14 156 2012-2013 24 492
BILLS
Second Reading of Bills
Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill. We now resume the Second Reading debate on the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
SEX DISCRIMINATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 2014
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 25 June 2014
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, Chairman of the Bills Committee on the above Bill, will address the Council on the Committee's Report.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): President, in my capacity as Chairman of the Bills Committee on Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014, I submit the report to the Legislative Council and highlight the major issues deliberated by the Bills Committee.
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The Bills Committee noted that the current provision prohibiting sexual harassment does not cover a customer harassing a service provider. The Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 (the Bill) seeks to amend the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) to extend protection to protect service providers from sexual harassment by their customers and to extend protection to cover sexual harassment that takes place on board Hong Kong registered ships or aircraft while outside Hong Kong.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
The Bills Committee has held two meetings in total and received views from the public and organizations concerned. Members in general have expressed support for the Bill and its early commencement so as to plug the loophole that the existing provision concerned does not cover a customer harassing a service provider. The Bills Committee noted that the Administration's proposal of expanding the territorial scope of protection aims to enable application of the provision prohibiting sexual harassment to sexual harassment that occurs between a service provider and a customer on board Hong Kong registered ships or aircraft while outside Hong Kong. The victim concerned can lodge a complaint with the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) after returning to Hong Kong and act in accordance with the law even if the sexual harassment occurs on a ship while sailing in the open sea or on an aircraft flying in the international airspace, or while it is in another jurisdiction.
Some members have expressed concern that whether sexual harassment of service providers by customers that occurs on Hong Kong registered land-based transport means (for example, trains or coaches) while operating outside Hong Kong is covered by the Bill. The Administration has explained that as sexual harassment that occurs on land-based transport would either be covered by the SDO if it takes place in Hong Kong, or by the relevant law of the Mainland if it takes place on the Mainland, there would be no question of a jurisdictional vacuum. Therefore, the Bill does not propose to explicitly extend coverage to Hong Kong registered land-based transport means operating outside Hong Kong. At the request of members, the Administration has provided information on the protection rendered by the relevant laws of the Mainland against sexual harassment.
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Some members have also expressed concern that whether the employer would be held liable if the employer has been notified of the sexual harassment of his/her employees by customers in their workplace but does not take any action to prevent its recurrence. The Administration has advised that such issue has already been included in the Discrimination Law Review (DLR) currently conducted by the EOC which is expected to submit recommendations in the latter half of next year. The Administration would consider how to follow up upon receipt of the EOC's recommendations. The EOC has advised that upon passage of the Bill, the EOC will enhance its publicity and organize a series of promotional activities to educate the public on the new provisions.
Moreover, some members considered that the amendments under the Bill to section 40 of the SDO should avoid using gender specific language. Some members have also expressed concern that if a victim is a gender "X" person, would the victim be covered by the protection of the Bill. The Administration explained that it is open to a gender "X" person in Hong Kong to make a claim. The Court will consider the facts, circumstances and evidence in each individual case, apply the law and make a determination. The EOC has also advised that it will deal with sexual harassment complaints lodged by gender "X" persons under section 40 of the SDO. As regards the suggestion that gender neutral references should be used in the Bill, both the Administration and the EOC considered that the use of gender neutral references solely for the proposed new subsection (1A) would create inconsistency in the drafting of the provisions of the SDO. The EOC has advised that the current DLR is examining whether gender neutral language should be used for certain provisions of the SDO while the EOC is now in the process of consolidating the views received.
Deputy President, the above is my report on the work of the Bills Committee. Next I will, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB), talk about our opinions on the Bill. The current provision under the SDO prohibiting sexual harassment does not cover sexual harassment of service providers by customers. In brief, salespersons are not protected. If a salesperson is sexually harassed by a customer in the form of language or actions, such salesperson is not protected. Instead, the existing provision only protects the customers, that is, sexual 2964 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 harassment of customers by salespersons in the form of language or actions. Therefore, the Bill seeks to plug this loophole so that service industry practitioners can also be protected against sexual harassment.
Furthermore, the Bill has also expanded the territorial scope to cover Hong Kong registered ships or aircraft operating outside Hong Kong. In other words, if an aircraft left the jurisdiction of Hong Kong but the aircraft or ship in question is registered in Hong Kong, then the victim of any sexual harassment that occurs on such aircraft or ships can lodge a complaint with the EOC after returning to Hong Kong or refer to the enforcement agency for actions. However, it should be noted that this situation is not applicable to ships or aircraft not registered in Hong Kong. For instance, if some aircraft or ships are only registered overseas and they have left the jurisdiction of Hong Kong, relevant complaints or indictment can only be made in the domiciles where such aircraft or ships are registered. According to the normal jurisdictional principle, incidents that occur on aircraft or ships will only be regulated by the law of the domicile of registration. Therefore, the DAB supports the abovementioned two amendments.
In the course of scrutinizing the Bill, members were more concerned about the language used for gender in the Bill and there were two types of concern. First, we noticed that only the word "her" is used in the Bill. Does it imply that protection is given to only women but not men? This claim is incorrect as the Bill protects both men or women. Besides, some members mentioned that there are neutral gender persons in some countries, so how will the Bill protect them? They are neither "her" nor "him", whose identity documents may even only show the word "X" ― the gender "X" we mentioned just now ― and members have given opinions on this subject. The EOC is now conducting a consultation and we hope that it can propose some appropriate recommendations upon completion of the consultation. We also hope that in future, legislation related to gender discrimination can replace the word "her" with … actually it should not be using either "her" or "him". The best approach is using gender neutral references.
These are suggestions of the DAB on the amendments to the ordinance concerned. Thank you, Deputy President.
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MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) supports and greatly welcomes the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
As a matter of fact, the FTU Women Affairs Committee partnered with the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) in November 2013 to February this year to carry out the "Sexual Harassment and Discrimination in Employment ― Questionnaire Survey for Workers of Service Industries". Almost 20% of respondents said they had been sexually harassed. The most common harassers were colleagues of the same rank and then customers. Therefore, the amendment to the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) is to fully plug the loopholes in law, or address the undesirable situation that is already commonplace in society.
Why is it commonplace? Firstly, the proportion of women joining the employment market or workforce is becoming higher. Secondly, the service industries make up a large portion of the GDP or has created a large number of jobs. Thirdly, the current employment pattern of some sales-related industries is that the amount of direct purchases by customers affects the pay of the workers, so sometimes employees swallow the insults just for the pay ― not only for the job, but also for the salary each month. Therefore, we absolutely agree to providing basic legal protection to workers facing harassment by customers.
Some specific industries, for example, flight attendants (airline stewardesses or airline stewards) suffering from sexual harassment, are included in the consideration of this legislative amendment. In other words, they will also be protected outside the territory of Hong Kong in international airspace or sea. We also supports and welcomes this very much.
In fact, in the four EOC ordinances, the number of complaints in the employment field among different social fields always remains. The number of sexual harassment cases even accounts for a rising percentage in the employment field. Compared with the figures of the past few years, it is still rising higher. In 2010 it was 32% but in 2012 it rose to 37%, not yet taking into account "sexual harassment of employees by customers" which will take effect in the future. If this piece of legislation comes into effect smoothly, the percentage is believed to rise higher.
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According to the information provided by the EOC, the EOC handled 304 complaints lodged in accordance with the SDO in 2013, among them 282 cases were related to employment. And in those 282 cases, 112 involved sexual harassment. As a result, many of the complaints involving the SDO are in the employment field. Of course, the other field ― I am very much concerned about these cases and I have been providing assistance for them ― is pregnancy discrimination. The labour sector and the FTU are very much concerned about how to prevent an imbalance from arising in respect of the SDO and the protection of employees.
However, during the scrutiny of the Bill, the trade union of an industry had been voicing very strong views and, that is, the tourism industry. The Hong Kong Tourism Industry Employees General Union under the FTU has pointed out an issue repeatedly, either through us or at the Legislative Council hearings. The issue is that there are close to 20 000 outbound tour escorts leading leisure tours with Hong Kong residents to overseas places. The proposed Bill gives them protection on an aircraft but what about after they have got off the plane? The tour escorts will lead the tours for five, seven or eight days. During such period if they are sexually harassed by some ill-intentioned members of the tours, can these cases be handled?
Of course, some may say that the host country has its own laws and it should be handled by that country. But this is ridiculous. Both the tour escort and the customers are all Hongkongers. Would they really report the case to the local police? Come to think about this. If it is sexual harassment, will the employee easily call the local police and call a halt to the tour that he or she is in charge of? It is difficult for us to understand such a situation. On the contrary, is it possible to handle it back in Hong Kong? Yet both the EOC and the Government have given very disappointing responses. They stated that such cases should be left to the local jurisdiction. I believe it has absolutely not addressed the concern about how the support or protection for tour escorts or employees of the tourism industry while working outside Hong Kong can be strengthened.
As such, I call on or urge the SAR Government, Policy Bureaux or relevant departments alike to consider how best to spare the employees of the tourism industry, especially outbound tour escorts accompanying Hongkongers on leisure tours, of sexual harassment. This is very important. Just as I mentioned earlier, many workers in the service industries already have to face their customers, and some industries will determine the monthly salaries of employees LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2967 on basis of the direct purchases by customers, such as beer promoters in Hong Kong as some Members have mentioned; they are the same. Employees of the tourism industry and tour escorts who rely on tips as their main source of income face the same situation.
However, as I mentioned just now, once they are off the plane and ship, the protection is gone. And they have to report the case locally. Is this not somewhat ridiculous? According to my understanding, among the tour escorts registered in Hong Kong (19 243 people) ― those who are active and regard it as their job ― close to 70% are female. Therefore, we need to keep an eye on this. Of course, both men and women face the risk of sexual harassment, not just only women. But we notice such situation requires our attention.
For these reasons, I hope the Government will take the initiative to care about this industry after the Bill is passed so that the tour escorts and tour guides of this industry can be free from sexual harassment, and study if unfortunately they encounter this problem, how they would be assisted by Hong Kong departments. The most ridiculous thing indeed is the point mentioned and emphasized by me just now: those who have harassed them are actually customers from Hong Kong, not foreigners. Some may say it is difficult to arrest foreigners but the Hongkongers will return to Hong Kong. The Government needs to deal with this problem.
Moreover, the EOC is conducting a consultation now. Regarding the problem of employers' responsibility and connivance that I have just talked about, we really hope to make the labour sector or workers feel at ease, that is the employers need to bear a clear-cut responsibility. Of course it is important for the employers to provide training for their staff. But when things have come to the level I have mentioned, at which employees tolerate, encourage and bear with undesirable situations once and again in order to please customers or gain better sale performance, where does the responsibility of employers lie under such a unique or clear circumstance? We expect the EOC and the Government to give us an answer so that when we do publicity activities among workers we can make them feel more at ease while working.
Lastly, the FTU has brought up the issue of how to realize equal pay for work of equal value between men and women in each legislative amendment of the principal ordinance in the past, and we hope this can be handled through legislation. Certainly the minimum wage has its merits in some measure, 2968 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 because before the implementation of the minimum wage, people thought that many women were willing to take up part-time jobs with very low pay, such as supermarket cashiers at an hourly rate of $18 or $20 just to supplement the family income. Now with the minimum wage, what we consider a minimum assurance has successfully been put in place ― workers of different sexes and ages have had their minimum pay assured ― still the median wage between men and women shows an apparent gap of nearly 15% to 20%. This is an undeniable fact.
Therefore, we hope the legislation can progress continuously, including covering equal pay for work of equal value between men and women as demanded by the FTU. Thank you.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, we welcome this belated amendment. Why did I say it is belated? Actually, a proposal was already put forward by the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) as early as 1999 to extend the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) to protect service providers from sexual harassment by their customers. Although the Government did not raise any objection at that time, it has all along adopted a delaying tactic. It was only now in 2014 that Members can vote in this Council in support of extending the scope of protection. Actually, apart from protecting service providers from sexual harassment by their customers, some organizations attending the hearings told us that some members of social organizations were still not protected from sexual harassment.
Furthermore, given the current deplorable housing conditions in Hong Kong, many occupiers of rooftop huts or "sub-divided units" are subject to sexual harassment without protection by the law. Deputy President, during a visit to some occupiers of rooftop huts in Sham Shui Po, I found that these huts were not equipped with toilet and showering facilities. As a result, makeshift unauthorized structures made of wooden planks or metal sheets had to be built with additional water pipes installed for showering purposes. However, these structures allowed peeping to be done because there were a lot of cracks. Actually, such deplorable living conditions can hardly offer any protection to the occupiers. This is why we hope to amend the legislation to extend the scope of protection. Nevertheless, the ultimate solution lies in improving housing facilities and protecting social facilities targeting grass-roots people of different genders as a general social policy. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2969
Another point I wish to make is that the drafting of the SDO is, in my opinion, most conventional and conservative, with women deemed as the target of protection against sexual harassment under section 2(8). In present-day society, not only incidents of females being sexually harassed by males will occur, incidents involving sexual harassment of males by females or persons of the same sex will also take place. Therefore, a fundamental point we seek to make is, as a query raised by us in the course of scrutiny, why "a woman" is used instead of "a person". In this connection, the Government stated in its reply that it is pointed out clearly in the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) that, insofar as the drafting of the law is concerned, the provisions are applicable to both men and women. However, I have to point out that ― a similar point was made by me in the course of scrutiny ― some people are known as the third gender. For instance, there is a gender called gender "X" in Australia. Does it mean that persons of the third gender cannot enjoy any protection under this law in Hong Kong even if they are sexually harassed as service providers? When the most fundamental issue, such as gender identification, is not fully protected, it is pointless for us to discuss such issues as outside Hong Kong, jurisdiction, and so on.
Just now, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan pointed out that the persons concerned can file a lawsuit and, in repeating the Government's reply, claimed that persons of the third gender can do the same. Actually, during the deliberations of the Bill, we proposed a very simple amendment to change "a woman" or "a man" into "a person". Through the passage of this extremely simple amendment, everyone can enjoy protection. Why should persons of the third gender or persons subject to sexual harassment not be protected unless they take their cases to court for a ruling by the Judge? This is an example of the executive not daring to do anything but passing the buck to the Judiciary. Not only is the executive afraid of putting forward proposals for fear of arousing controversies, it is also afraid of objections from the conservative force. As a result, it would rather let the Judge decide in the unlikely event that such things happen. Actually, these things are inevitable.
As with the appeal lodged by a transsexual affected by the Marriage Ordinance after being ruled by the two lower courts as losing the lawsuit, the case was heard by the Court of Final Appeal from the perspective of protecting human rights. Insofar as protection against sexual harassment is concerned, I simply cannot imagine why the first trial would have prevented a person of the third gender from enjoying due protection. I find it most ridiculous for the Government to have failed to propose amendments accordingly in the course of scrutiny after hearing Members' opinions.
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Deputy President, I would like to say a few words about the enactment of legislation on gender recognition. Even if the Government wishes to evade the issue of gender recognition, it should not employ a delaying tactic. The Secretary might tell us later that this matter has been handed to a three-person group set up by the Secretary for Justice. Given that the group has already been established, I hope that efforts can be stepped up to accomplish its task. Why does it have to take two whole years? Although it will take nearly two years for the relevant study to be completed according to the initial timetable, the pace can actually be speeded up. I believe it is for the sake of settling political forces with different points of view that so much time is required. However, human rights should not have any bearing on politics with such a narrow definition. As the executive, the Administration should play the leading role in protecting human rights.
I implore the trio to complete the relevant study and take immediate actions to review the legislation and propose relevant amendments in order to provide protection for persons of the third gender as well as persons who are undergoing sex reassignment surgery (SRS) with regard to gender recognition. If legislation on gender recognition cannot be enacted, people who are undergoing SRS can only bring proceedings by virtue of the gender registered on their identity cards. Actually, like rubbing salt into their wounds, this will upset them further, which is utterly unnecessary.
Deputy President, sexual harassment of members of the public by civil servants is not regulated under the existing legislation. Nor is sexual harassment of members of the public by police officers during law enforcement is regulated. During the deliberations of the Bill, Members did not take sexual harassment as seriously as they do now because incidents involving the mass clearance operations staged by police officers in Mong Kok or Lung Wo Road in Admiralty, the enforcement of injunction orders issued by the Court, and a large number of female students being grabbed from behind had not occurred. A couple of days ago, that is, last weekend, some netizens even noticed a female protester being threatened by a police officer to be taken to a police station and raped. During the deliberations of the Bill, such outrageous and blatant acts of sexual harassment had not yet occurred in broad daylight. When the Association for the Advancement of Feminism expressed its view on the absence of regulation of sexual harassment of members of the public by civil servants under the existing legislation, Members did not hold any in-depth discussions because the Government would say that police officers were enforcing the law, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2971 thus giving people an impression that they were behaving properly. However, could a police officer threaten to take someone to a police station and rape her? Where should the persons concerned approach to lodge complaints?
Hence, I would like to encourage protesters, be they male or female, to complain to the EOC should they be sexually harassed by police officers during their protests, so that investigations can be carried out. Although the existing legislation does not confer powers on the EOC to investigate the Police Force, it is better to complain to the Complaints Against Police Office, which is notorious for harbouring police officers, because it is a complete failure. Meanwhile, the Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC) is now chaired by a "LEUNG's fan". Except two of its pan-democrat members, who will speak out and whip and spur the IPCC, the rest of its members are nowhere to be found. Some of them have even expressed support for police officers.
Hence, Deputy President, we really feel very sorry. I must let members of the public know that I am terribly sorry. In the course of scrutiny, there was little discussion on these issues because these incidents had not yet occurred and there were no serious incidents. Hence, I wish to put this on record today. I would like to call on the Secretary to give Members a specific reply later on the sexual harassment of female protesters by police officers during law enforcement.
Thank you, Deputy President.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, in relation to what Ms Cyd HO has just said, if any citizen has been subject to verbal sexual harassment or their private parts have actually been touched by the Police, which are illegal offences, they can lodge a complaint against the Police for their misconduct to the Complaints Against Police Office other than reporting the case. I call on all people who have had such encounters to make a report and complaint so that the Police and the Independent Police Complaints Council can follow up.
Deputy President, the amendments in the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 (the Bill) are indeed long overdue. The Democratic Party and I greatly support the amendments to the SDO, which have been proposed for more than 10 years. I wrote to the Panel on Constitutional Affairs of the Legislative Council in May last year to directly point out to government officials the 2972 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 absurdity of the SDO. The absurdity lies in that when the SDO was proposed more than 10 years ago, the purpose was to protect customers from being sexually harassed by employees and service attendants; but on the contrary, service attendants being sexually harassed by customers were not protected. The SDO is very ridiculous. At the time Secretary Raymond TAM was very surprised to learn of such things at the meeting ― you also remember. Perhaps he was not in charge in the past but now he knows what the situation is and considers it to be very outrageous. I asked the Secretary if he was aware of the fact that this matter had been under discussion for more than 10 years, and the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) has also lent it its support. Secretary Raymond TAM has not made much contribution to the constitutional reform but on this matter he has given me and women's groups his word. I am very grateful to him for taking a step forward on this matter. At our meeting on 7 June last year, we followed up on the protection scope of sexual harassment and then held a meeting with the EOC to discuss this. We quickly started a consultation exercise afterwards. And now we have come to this stage.
The current SDO covers sexual harassment but as I have just said there was such an apparent loophole during the enactment process. At the time section 40 of the SDO only provided that it is unlawful for any person providing goods, facilities or services to sexually harass a customer. Yet it does not provide for whether the opposite situation is unlawful or what the consequences would be. As a result, when people providing goods, services or facilities face sexual harassment by their customers, the SDO fails to afford service providers or employees appropriate protection, and they cannot file a civil action or claim against these customers through legal channels.
In fact, the EOC indicated to the Government the problem of the SDO in 1999 and recommended amendments to protect providers of goods and services from sexual harassment. And the Home Affairs Bureau gave a reply to the Legislative Council in 2000 in support of the amendments. It was the year 2000, and it is 2014 now. We can do the maths. The EOC made a proposal again to the Government on legislative amendments in 2011 with drafted provisions for its consideration. The Government indicated agreement but never officially proceeded with it. I do not understand why something so simple has to be put off for 14 years. If Secretary Raymond TAM had taken up this position earlier perhaps discussions would have been opened. I do not know what happened in the interim such that it was put off for 14 years until we can finally reach this LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2973 stage. I am also very happy that now in 2014 for I hope all Members will support this Bill in order to resolve this piece of legislation which has been disputed for 14 years. It is indeed very simple. The Bill is about plugging the loopholes in law to put in place an appropriate protection mechanism for service providers when they are sexually harassed by customers.
I seem to have made it very complicated. To put it the other way round, I will give a telling example of flight attendants. Say when you are on a plane and a stewardess or steward sexually harasses a customer on the plane, the law has provided since more than 10 years ago that this is unlawful and liability in law shall be pursued. Yet on the contrary, when a stewardess or steward is sexually harassed by a customer while providing service, who for example ridicules his or her figure, leers at him or her or touches his or her body parts, the victim cannot hold the customer liable. This is very ridiculous. Of course, we are happy that we have come to this stage and finally can deal with the amendments.
The Government agrees to the amendments but has procrastinated for so long. Surely I think the Government owes the public an explanation on why it took 14 years to handle such simple amendments and what indeed happened in this period. Honestly in the course of the scrutiny of the Bill, Members of different affiliations did not have any serious disagreement over the issue. We were just considering how to amend the law to better the protection. Of course, we have noticed that some viewpoints raised by the Government have not been examined in detail by us, including whether sexual harassment that occurs on an aircraft or a ship departing from Hong Kong before it reaches another country or place on the journey is protected. The Government has extended the protection to aircraft and ships departing from Hong Kong through this amendment exercise. We welcome such an amendment.
Deputy President, why do we think the SDO needs to be amended? It is because according to statistics, we have noted that the total employment size in 2012 was 3 660 000, with 88.4% of it belonging to the service industries. And the 2012 figures of women and men in Hong Kong also indicated that females working in the service and retail sectors accounted for 56%, slightly higher than 43% for males. It means that women account for the majority in the service industries. Since employees in the service industries are mostly women, if the amendments can cover employees in the service industries then they can be free from the threat of sexual harassment, and the amended SDO will benefit 2974 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 front-line staff of the service, catering and insurance industries. Even professions like lawyers, social workers and nurses can be spared of sexual harassment by their customers or target clients.
According to the results of the study on young female bodily labour and workplace sexual harassment conducted by the Association for the Advancement of Feminism (AAF) in 2011, among women who work in the service industries, over 70% and 30% of the respondents said they might be or even had been sexually harassed by customers at work respectively. Among these respondents, sexual harassment endured by female beer promoters, nurses, salespersons and flight attendants was the most serious. Moreover, the AAF assisted in the survey on women suffering from violence in Hong Kong in April 2013. The report showed that 80% of the women in the catering industry had been sexually harassed. And in the service, education, and administration and professional sectors, over 60% of the women had been sexually harassed.
Deputy President, that is why I believe the amendments to the SDO are utterly urgent. As a matter of fact, sexual harassment is the manifestation of power relations. Sexual harassment can happen between a man and a man or a man and a woman. Sexual harassment can be done by a man to a man, a woman to a woman, or a man to a woman or a woman to a man. Different kinds of sexual harassment are also covered by the amendments this time.
When we looked at the statistics and studies, we also found that a great majority of sexual harassment cases involved males harassing females, and among them the service industries and catering industry were on the list of high-risk industries in terms of sexual harassment, including flight attendants, promoters and customer service representatives, as well as hotline operators. We have heard about staff who receive phone calls at the Hong Kong Jockey Club often receive calls from customers who speak foul language. This is sexual harassment as well.
Therefore, though the amendments are important, I think public education and promotional work is equally important too; otherwise these operators will continue to be "greeted" with profanity when receiving calls and how can we follow up at that time? Hence, I consider that apart from legislating on regulation, we also have to do better public education. And the employers in these industries also have the responsibility to remind their staff how to respond LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2975 when they are sexually harassed by customers. Or they should send certain messages to their clients to let them know the amendments to the SDO which are related to sexual harassment.
Deputy President, I would like to reiterate that the Democratic Party welcomes and fully supports the amendments in order to stop the problem of insufficient protection against sexual harassment in the SDO. We certainly hope to solve the part on sexual harassment today and then amend the SDO. But in the long term, there are problems of various scales in different parts of the anti-discrimination provisions in the SDO, Disability Discrimination Ordinance, Family Status Discrimination Ordinance and Race Discrimination Ordinance that require further review and amendment. I understand that the EOC has initiated a consultation in this regard. Through a comprehensive consultation and study, I hope that proposals can be tabled before the Legislative Council as soon as possible on how to perfect the anti-discrimination ordinances, as well as other anti-discrimination ordinances which are not yet enacted, such as equal opportunities for people of different sexual orientation. In this way, we will be able to conduct a full examination of the current SDO and the other three Ordinances, making a leap forward in anti-discrimination and promotion of equal opportunities in the community.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I support the relevant amendments.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, on behalf of the Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong I speak in support of the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
Quite a number of Honourable colleagues have talked earlier on the necessity of this Amendment Bill. The main reason is that the current law cannot prohibit sexual harassment possibly experienced by providers of goods or services or protect them from such acts. We all know clearly that in the course of our daily life, waitresses at bars or the cabin crew of aeroplanes may be sexually harassed by the customers. These employees would have such an experience. So the attempt by the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 to rectify the situation is, I think, a consensus among Members of this Council.
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There are a number of issues that I think should be raised for discussion today. First, with respect to section 40(1A) proposed in the Bill, the original stipulation is rather traditional. When the SDO was first enacted, the wording of "a person" and "a woman" was used. In that Ordinance, the word "a woman" is used. And when supplementation is made in another ordinance, the wording used shows that both men and women are to be protected. This is how people would look at this Ordinance. A discussion on this ensued. If I have not mistaken, just now I heard Dr CHIANG Lai-wan ask whether or not an approach which is not so definitive may be adopted to handle the issue. Certain Members, such as Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen and Ms Cyd HO suggested that gender "X" may be used to stand for a certain gender. In my opinion, I do not agree. I would think that when this Bill was drafted, a certain gender was used and the word had both single and plural forms. If Members are mindful about this, we can specify that it is a man or a woman. But if the idea of gender "X" is proposed, honestly, there is not yet any consensus in society. Members argued hotly over the Marriage Ordinance and the community was almost divided on this. The Government has received a lot of submissions which stated that insofar as the definitions of man and woman in law are concerned, most of the people in Hong Kong do insist on their established view.
Although we do not agree with this view, we should accept the judgment passed by the Court of Final Appeal (CFA) regarding a case of a transgendered person "W". After the person has undergone a sex re-assignment surgery (SRS), he/she will become a new person with a new gender in his/her family and in society. The CFA was very cautious in this case in that it gave a very detailed definition of sex re-assignment, specifically that it should include a psychological assessment over a long period of time; and the scope of the SRS was also written down in great detail. Basically, the result of such an operation is that the original sex of the person cannot be restored. In other words, it is irreversible. Although after the operation, the person's family, relatives or friends may not accept his/her new sex, at least after the operation, there will not be any ambiguity about the person's sex anymore. The person can live in the community and family with the new sex. Thus the person can act on the strength of the W case and in his/her new sex marries a person of another sex.
This was highly controversial then and many Members hoped that a so-called "third sex" can be proposed in the discussions or through an amendment. I would think that in the case of the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 in particular, it is not appropriate to put forward such an LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2977 idea, nor should it be put forward as well. This is because if we were to talk about the third sex, it would touch on many other laws in Hong Kong, not just this Ordinance alone. The Equal Opportunity Commission (EOC) said that it would study the issue, so this requires a consensus in society and on top of it, many other relevant ordinances are involved. One such ordinance is the one on succession. And the sex issue is found in many other ordinances as well. So if Members think that it is not so proper to say "a woman" as in the original law, then we can use "a man or a woman" and that will be fine. I do not think any dispute would arise over this. This is because if we want to protect a person against sexual harassment, the act of sexual harassment may be by a man to a woman, or by a woman to a man, and likewise, a man may sexually harass another man and a woman may sexually harass another woman. Indeed there may be confusions in certain people regarding their sex. Insofar as the handling of the problem of sexual harassment is concerned, I would agree with the Government's point that this can be handled and there is no need to change or cause any repercussion to this clear definition of man and woman in the mainstream opinion in society. This is my first point.
Some people have cited Australia as an example. I have also examined other examples. I know in some countries, parents are not allowed to delineate their children's sex before their children reach the age of 20. The decision should be left to the children after they have reached the age of 20. This is an extreme position to take and it is terrifying. I hope we will not open a glaring gap in this direction. I also hope that the Government can hear our demand clearly and that is, an overwhelming majority of the people of Hong Kong do not agree to the classification of a new gender called gender "X".
My second point is on the problem of sexual harassment faced by some tour guides on board an aeroplane or a vessel as they lead a tour outside Hong Kong. Such a situation is very likely to happen. It touches on the issue of enacting laws. Suppose a tour group or a vehicle concerned is heading towards a destination outside Hong Kong, and if we want the laws of Hong Kong to take effect, this may involve the question of extraterritoriality. This is a complicated issue and we cannot just wish that the law can automatically take effect.
On the contrary, speaking about international practice, what the Hong Kong Government now adopts is a very common approach. In Hong Kong as well as in the international community, in a registered aeroplane, for example, 2978 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 when Typhoon Signal No. 8 or 10 is hoisted, passengers may complain that the flight is delayed. The passengers are asked to board the aeroplane and wait for may be eight to 10 hours. This is exactly because of this reason: the airline does not want to be complained against and the airport does not want to be complained against either. And so passengers are shoved on board the plane and they have to stay in that plane or vessel, whatever that might be.
According to international practice, on the means of transport, once its flag is covered, it does not matter where that means of transport is. A taxi running on the roads of another country is still subject to the jurisdiction of its place of registration. In this respect, I would suggest the Government to consider this: I think most countries should have laws protecting a person from sexual harassment and there are similar laws existing in many countries. This applies to the Mainland and to many overseas countries. What the EOC can do is to spearhead discussions on co-operation with these countries or on the question of mutual legal assistance. This can thus reduce complaints. If a person does not want to lodge a complaint in the country where he or she is travelling, can something be done in the context of mutual legal assistance to help? We know that certain common arrangements exist between countries or different jurisdictions. I suggest the Government think about it. It can do something about this law so that people can act easier on the strength of this law and get their protection. What the Government proposes is in line with the current international practice.
Third, it is something that I have not planned to discuss today but it has been raised by two Honourable colleagues earlier. They mentioned that with respect to the Occupy movement, some protesters think that they may have been sexually harassed by policemen. These protesters may have lodged many other complaints too. I wish to point out that as early as in July, the protesters often said that they hoped they would be carried away by the Police, that is, four members from the Police will carry away one protester. At that time we suggested that if the protesters were to be carried away, help from women police officers should be sought.
I have also heard some instructors of the Police say to me that certain young police women ― that did not happen recently and it was as early as in July ― had said that when handling mass rallies, they would really come across sexual harassment. These woman police officers complained to the instructors in tears and some of them even wanted to call it quits. I raise this issue because irrespective of woman police officers, male police officers as well as the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2979 protesters and occupiers, they may all have such similar experience in a confusing situation such as mass rallies. Some of these incidents may be deliberate while some are not and circumstantial evidence is required. But irrespective of whether the occupiers are male or female, be they young or old, or male or female police officers, they should all enjoy the same protection.
When we discuss this issue, I hope Members will not take a one-sided approach because obviously problems like these have occurred. There are young people in the Police Force and they have done their best. I know that many woman police officers are sent out on this operation and so chances are they may have had this experience. I hope that when Members discuss this problem, they will not take a one-sided approach. I also hope that after this Bill is passed, we will see fewer cases of people seeking help because of sexual harassment. The best thing would be we can all respect each other.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I support the amendments.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the Liberal Party and I basically do not have strong views on the Bill.
There are mainly two amendments under the Bill, one of which being rendering sexual harassment between a service provider and a customer unlawful on a Hong Kong registered ship or aircraft outside Hong Kong. Both the Liberal Party and I support this amendment. The other amendment proposes amending the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) to protect providers of goods, facilities or services against sexual harassment by customers. We understand that as there is no provision outlawing sexual harassment of service providers by customers under the existing ordinance, the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) was unable to take any action even though it has received a few complaints about sexual harassment over the past few years. Therefore, the Liberal Party basically also supports the amendment concerned to plug the loophole of the ordinance.
However, some members of the Bills Committee considered that employers have the responsibility to provide a working environment free of sexual harassment and they proposed amending the ordinance so that employers would be required to accept the liability. The Liberal Party considers this unnecessary. 2980 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
In fact, many employers have proactively taken reasonable and practical measures to provide a safe working environment for employees which can prevent sexual harassment. Nonetheless, as pointed out by some representatives of employers in the public hearing, it would be difficult to define whether employers have exercised due diligence. Besides, working environments vary with different industries. The working environments of some industries are constantly changing with many unexpected situations. For instance, tour escorts of tour groups have to go to different countries and hotels. Another example is that when employees of the catering industry deliver takeaways, they may also visit different places and encounter various customers, which is not entirely under the control of employers themselves. If it is prescribed that "employers must provide a working environment free of sexual harassment", then it will impose a rather onerous regulation on them. Therefore, it will be unfair to employers if their liability in this area is regulated by way of legislation. However, we agree that publicity and education should be enhanced to raise the relevant awareness among employers. The Administration can actually educate the public on the new provisions and, at the same time, encourage employers to promote the new ordinance among employees so that employees can understand the rights to which they are entitled and will not tolerate any sexual harassment by customers. If necessary, employees should seek assistance from and reflect the same to their supervisors or employers. Moreover, upon the passage of the Bill, employees will then enjoy the rights to bring charges against customers who have sexually harassed them as well as lodging complaints to the EOC of their own accord. I cannot see any possibility that employers will permit sexual harassment of employees by customers as this will definitely do no good to the employers. Therefore, once the Amendment Bill is passed, it will convey a clear message to the employers, that they need to strength their preventive measures. So, there is no need to make this superfluous effort of laying down in law the liability of employers in this area.
Furthermore, as for the suggestion made by some Members that gender neutral references should be used in the Bill, Dr Priscilla LEUNG has presented many opinions on this subject in her speech just now and we in the Liberal Party do not agree with it either. The Administration has stated clearly that the drafting of this Bill will also offer protection to third gender persons who are legally recognized in overseas countries. Besides, using gender neutral references will create inconsistency in the drafting of the existing provisions LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2981 under the SDO. For this reason, the Liberal Party disapproves of the attempt of the Members concerned to take this opportunity to associate the amendments with the subject of transgender persons.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): I speak in support of the relevant amendments to the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 this time around.
In fact, the amendments to the ordinance this time around are very simple and they consist only of two main points that are not controversial. The first is to extend the protection to prevent service providers from being sexually harassed by customers; and the second is to expand the territorial scope to cover sexual harassment that takes place on board a Hong Kong registered ship or aircraft while such a ship or aircraft is outside Hong Kong.
In fact, at present, in the provision of goods, facilities or services, there is only an arrangement known as unidirectional protection. Only unidirectional sexual harassment is covered, including sexual harassment of employees by employers, subordinates by superiors and customers by service providers. After the amendments are made, the scope will be expanded to cover sexual harassment of a service provider by a customer, so as to protect employees of certain trades and industries particularly vulnerable to sexual harassment by customers, such as nurses, airline hostesses, waitresses and beer promoters.
As early as in 1999, the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) already made recommendations that included extending the protection to cover sexual harassment of a service provider by a customer and the Government also said in 2000 that in principle, it did not oppose the recommendations made by the EOC. Although the EOC made such a recommendation, the Government did not object to it and there was no controversy in the community, why was it necessary to wait a full 15 years ― it was 15 years from 2000 to 2014 ― before this Bill goes through the three Readings today? I believe the Government should explain why there had been such a long delay before the amendments were proposed.
Just imagine: Even an amendment without any controversy had to wait for 15 years, so what would happen to the more controversial recommendations that we will discuss later? The so-called more controversial recommendation that 2982 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 was not included in this Amendment Bill is: In the event of sexual harassment of a subordinate by a superior, the superior will usually be subjected to punishment and dismissed and often, the company concerned also has to assume a certain degree of responsibility, including apologizing to the employee who was sexually harassed and even making compensation.
However, this time, after extending the coverage, how much liability do employers have to assume in such an event? If a customer has harassed an employee repeatedly but the superior or company still does not adopt practicable measures to protect employees from sexual harassment or prevent them from working in a work environment full of chances of sexual harassment, even though the superior, employer or company is aware of the situation, we think the employer has to assume a certain degree of liability. I think the Government cannot deny such a situation.
In the Amendment Bill this time around, the Government does not intend to deal with such situations. It shifted the responsibility to the joint review of the four pieces of anti-discrimination legislation being conducted by the EOC which will submit a report in the second half of 2015. I think this is a course of action designed to cause delays and evade responsibility.
Of course, if the report to be submitted by the EOC recommends considering pursuing an employer's liability as well, there is no knowing for how many years we have to wait. We had to wait 15 years even for an amendment without any controversy, so in respect of such a major controversy ― Members could also hear the views expressed by Mr Tommy CHEUNG on behalf of the business sector just now ― when can such a recommendation be incorporated into this Ordinance?
According to a survey conducted by the Hong Kong Women Workers' Association some years ago, almost 70% of beer promoters, commonly known as "beer girls", were subjected to sexual harassment by customers, in such ways as comments about their appearance, bawdy jokes and persistent requests for rendezvous after work or the provision of additional services. Among them, 18.4% of the respondents said they had even been physically touched by customers, including on the arms and even the breasts. Although 40% sought assistance from their superiors, the persons-in-charge of eating establishments or their colleagues, their companies, in order not to offend customers, would usually take a passive attitude and tell the employees concerned to drop such matters to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2983 avoid trouble. As a result, not only were these problems not resolved but the employees concerned would even face the risk of being dismissed by the employer. Therefore, they can only choose between sexual harassment and their livelihood, so they are in a very disadvantaged position.
It can thus be seen that employers and companies have to face pressing and unshirkable liability. They can adopt measures to prevent the presence of a work environment that is fraught with sexual harassment. Employers should not just say casually, "It is your choice and you must bear the consequences. In working as a beer promoter, do not try to behave like a lady.". These remarks rationalize sexual harassment and condone customers, and the employees concerned are sometimes even dismissed, so to the harassed person, this represents a double blow. Therefore, I think that in choosing not to deal with the liability that employers have to assume, the Administration is condoning employers.
Of course, employer representatives have strong views and in the public consultation carried out by the Bills Committee, we also heard them say they had no way to prevent the sexual harassment of employees by customers. Some employers even said that if we introduced such a provision, they could only hire employees who were not so good-looking. Such an attitude shows that employers want to "trim their toes to fit the shoes" by not hiring good-looking employees with good body shapes, for fear of having to assume responsibility for the sexual harassment of their employees. I definitely cannot agree with such an attitude and this is also another form of discrimination.
In fact, all Members are employers as they have many assistants. If their colleagues in local Member's Offices are subjected to sexual harassment while we are in meetings and for this reason, we cannot go there to deal with and stop such matters, of course, we have to assume responsibility ― if an incident is an isolated one, we may not have to assume responsibility ― but I hope employer representatives or Members speaking on behalf of employers should not blow such a responsibility totally out of proportions, that is, no matter where an employee is subjected to sexual harassment and whenever employers cannot scramble to the scene to prevent it, they are guilty. What are we addressing now? We are now addressing repetitive instances: An employee lodged a complaint or sought assistance; however, not only did the superior not deal with it … in some cases that I came across, a service provider entered a VIP room several times to serve a customer and was sexually harassed each time. On 2984 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 coming out, she told her superior that she had been sexually harassed by the customer and requested to stop serving the customers in the room in question. However, her superior rejected and required her to continue to go into the room to provide service, despite knowing full well that she had been sexually harassed inside. When the customer came again next time, this employee asked, "He sexually harassed me last time, so can I be allowed not to serve this customer?" The reply was, "No. Otherwise, just quit.". In these circumstances, Members have to ask themselves if they think such a boss should assume some responsibility.
What we target is the failure of an employer to take practicable steps to prevent the sexual harassment of an employee. In this regard, he must assume some responsibility. I also hope Members will not talk about this piece of legislation on sexual harassment as though it were a scourge. I wish to cite some figures to Members: From 2009 to August 2014, the EOC handled 512 cases in total related to sexual harassment. In almost six years' time, it only dealt with such a number of cases. Among them, successful conciliation was achieved in 136 cases and this may mean apologies, the introduction of equal opportunity policies by employers, financial compensation, and so on. In this period, the EOC provided legal assistance to 16 cases of sexual harassment and the total sum of compensation made was only $187,263. Therefore, I ask Members not to think that if the legislation covers employers, employers may go bankrupt, their operating costs may soar or they may be fined so much that they would go broke. In five years, only 16 cases were dealt with and only a total of some $187,000 in compensation was made, so I think such a sum is far too small. Therefore, the Government must face this problem squarely but of course, I must also reiterate I am very worried that after the EOC has submitted that very controversial report, there is no knowing if any amendment will be introduced into the Legislative Council even after 15 years because even this amendment protecting employees from harassment by customers were mooted for 15 years.
Another issue of concern to us is that the provisions under the existing Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) are strongly gender specific and such words as "man" and "woman" are used in large numbers. Although section 6 of the existing Ordinance provides that "the provisions … relating to sex discrimination against women, shall be read as applying equally to the treatment of men", so that provisions using the term "women" can also be interpreted as being also applicable to men, with the recognition of third gender persons (gender "X") by law in some overseas jurisdictions ― this is the fact and we cannot just say that LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2985 traditionally, Hong Kong society consists of men and women and that it would do just to turn a blind eye by not recognizing the existence of gender "X". At present, some overseas jurisdictions have already given it recognition and in the future, instances like this one will keep occurring ― at present, Members deny this point and only look at the gender issue in the simple and easy gender classification framework of man and woman. This cannot deal with people like bisexuals and transgender persons, or people who are unwilling to identify themselves as either men or women, so it can be seen that the provisions of the present SDO have limitations.
Earlier on, in the Bills Committee, I queried if the relevant provisions could protect third gender persons and the reply of the authorities was also vague. Even the reply of the Secretary for Justice was also like this and Members can go back and watch the video recording of it again. At that time, he only said that third gender persons must choose to be categorized either as men or women within the Hong Kong jurisdiction before they can be afforded protection under anti-discrimination legislation. This means that if they do not identify themselves as men or women, in legal principle, this piece of legislation cannot protect him. However, I have noticed that the view of the EOC is actually more progressive. At that time, the representative of the EOC said at the meeting that protection from sexual harassment was available to everyone regardless of gender identity. The EOC will deal with sexual harassment complaints lodged by third gender persons in the same way as it does with complaints by other men or women. Of course, in the process of conciliation, the EOC can do so but if such matters are referred to the Court, will the legal principle of this provision be queried by the defence? I believe this is an unknown. Since we have already found such a loophole now, why do we not prepare for a rainy day?
In fact, in the present joint review of the four pieces of anti-discrimination legislation by the EOC, it is also recommended that strongly gender-specific references in the provisions be neutralized to prevent people who belong to a gender other than man or woman from being unable to receive protection. For example, in the amendment this time around, subsection (1A)(b) in the relevant clause can be amended to "It is unlawful for a person to sexually harass another person in the course of ― being provided with goods, facilities or services by that other person.". Not only will this make the anti-discrimination legislation cover people of various sexual identities, this will also avoid the constraints of such phrases as man to woman or woman to man.
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Although the Government can cite many different grounds for its not making the gender-specific terms in the provisions gender neutral, for example, it once suggested that "the drafting of the proposed amendments under the Bill should be consistent with the drafting approach of the existing provisions", or it has shifted the responsibility to the review of all the relevant legislation in one go by the EOC, saying that the legislation could be amended holistically and comprehensively in due course. And the Government also has another trick up its sleeves, that is, the Secretary for Justice and several Directors of Bureaux have formed the Inter-departmental Working Group on Gender Recognition. Evidently, there is room for improvement in the Government's attitude. In contrast, the attitude of the EOC is far more positive. It considers that the use of gender neutral references in the SDO is preferable and it will also study if such an approach can be applied to the legislation.
I believe Members all have one question. Since we have described this piece of legislation as riddled with problems, be it in respect of gender-specific references or the lack of protection for service providers against sexual harassment by customers, even though their employers are aware of such harassment and do not take any action, or even condone such instances, why have we not proposed any amendments? I wish to tell Members that in this regard, it is really necessary to "pocket it first" because if we want to amend some provisions, be it wording with gender-specific references or actively introducing amendments to cover the responsibility of employers in the legislation, first, the Government may withdraw the Bill; second, in the course of discussions, more wrangles may arise and in that event, some Members may say that we have to argue for three more years. But we have waited for 15 years, so if we argue for three more years, we would lose some protection that is basically somewhat better, for example, even the provisions that protect employees from sexual harassment by customers may be lost. In fact, this is just like the discussion on paternity leave and the rationales are the same, that is, if a little effort is made now, are Members willing to "pocket it first"? If we do not, we may get nothing whatsoever or will have to wait for another 15 years. I believe this is not an attitude that the Government should take.
I hope the Policy Bureau can be more progressive in dealing with the legislation or on finding that there are problems with the legislation. I do not mean it is absolutely necessary to amend it but after the Court's judgment had ruled something as unconstitutional, it was necessary to wait a decade before LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2987 amending just one term. The EOC stated clearly that it was necessary to make amendments and the Government also agreed, yet it was still necessary to wait 15 years. If we continue to wait in this way, I believe the responsibility of employers will not be written into the legislation even after the death of all Members.
I so submit.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): The Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 (the Bill) has proposed to add a new section 40(1A) but refused to use gender neutral references as the Government still sticks to the established concepts of the two genders. As a result, persons of the third gender may not be afforded the protection under the Amendment Ordinance, which is regrettable. According to the explanation of the Administration, the drafting of the proposed amendments under the Bill should be consistent with the drafting approach of the existing provisions of the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO), but is it not seeking to amend the SDO now? Since the SDO has room for improvement, it must be amended, and if the Government is unwilling even to make slight amendments to the relevant provisions, it is imaginable how fossilized this Government is.
We certainly support the amendments in principle for they will extend the coverage of the prohibition of sexual harassment and provide protection to providers of goods, facilities or services against sexual harassment by customers. We also agree to extending the protection to the effect that the territorial scope of sections 40(1) and (1A) will cover unlawful sexual harassment of service providers by customers, and of customers by service providers, that takes place on board a Hong Kong registered ship or aircraft while such a ship or aircraft is outside Hong Kong. However, it is ironic that persons of the third gender are excluded from the protection of the Bill, and these amendments, if passed, will constitute discrimination against these people for a second time. The enactment of legislation must ensure equality for all, and it is unnecessary for the Administration to exclude the sexual minorities.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated right from the outset that "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights". Article 25 2988 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 of the Basic law also clearly provided that "All Hong Kong residents shall be equal before the law". It is a matter of course to protect the dignity and equal rights of all the people, including the sexual minorities, unlike those nonsenses talked by people including Dr Priscilla LEUNG about mainstream society, traditional society or whatsoever. We are discussing equal opportunities now. Hong Kong has given effect to the four anti-discrimination ordinances and the Bill of Rights for more than a decade and yet, it still allows persons of the third gender to be excluded from the protection of the SDO, completely turning a blind eye to the principle of human rights. It is an irreversible contemporary trend to recognize the third gender and respect the rights of sexual minorities in law. In many countries like the United Kingdom, Australia and Germany, laws are enacted to give recognition to the third gender and to care for the rights of the sexual minorities to varying degrees.
Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 of the United Kingdom, the completion of a sex re-assignment surgery is not made an essential condition for a person to change his or her gender. We have discussed this point when the Marriage (Amendment) Bill 2014 was negatived. The Equality Act 2010 of the United Kingdom serves to address discrimination in all areas on the grounds of age, sex, sexual orientation, religion, and so on, by grouping them under one piece of legislation … Secretary, are you very much bored as you have kept on scratching your head? Have you studied what I have just said? You said that you did. Alright, as you say so.
Other than the two genders of male and female, the Australian law also recognizes the so-called gender "X" which covers the transgender and intersex people. These people are allowed to choose their gender according to their wish and the "X" gender is also entitled to legal protection.
Third, in Germany, the Transsexuals Act was enacted as early as in the 1980s. People who wish to change their gender are not required to undergo a mandatory surgery.
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Hong Kong claims to be an international city and the Government also says our laws are on par with international laws, but the fact is that this is the case only as and when they see fit. The Government must amend the relevant provisions to enable people of different genders to enjoy the protection and respect due to them. This is a fundamental principle. Otherwise, what is the point of introducing legislative amendments?
Recently, Stephen WHITTLE, a consultant to the committee responsible for drafting the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act 2010 of the United Kingdom, visited Hong Kong. He expressed great disappointment at the SAR Government delaying the enactment of legislation when learning that the Inter-departmental Working Group on Gender Recognition chaired by the Secretary for Justice will have to take six years to complete the studies alone. Coupled with the drafting of the legislation, consultation, and so on, it will take at least a decade to complete the legislative exercise. Even though the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) is of the view that ― as cited by Mr CHAN Chi-chuen earlier on ― protection from sexual harassment is available to everyone regardless of gender identity and the EOC will deal with sexual harassment complaints lodged by gender "X" persons in the same way as it does with complaints by other men or women, this is no more than a stopgap measure. The EOC is not a tribunal and the way it handles complaints has no bearing on the protection provided to gender "X" persons in law, right? This is actually most lethal.
The Bill also has defects in other aspects. For example, new sections 41(6) and (7) aim to apply sections 40(1) and (1A) to sexual harassment that occurs on board local ships or aircraft outside Hong Kong, but why does it not cover such modes of transport as trains, through trains, cross-boundary coaches, and so on? Is it because these cases may involve the Mainland and hence, they would be more difficult to handle and should be evaded? The Government said that as sexual harassment that occurs on land-based transport would either be covered by the SDO if it takes place in Hong Kong, or by the relevant law of the Mainland if it takes place on the Mainland, there would be no question of jurisdictional vacuum and therefore, the Bill does not propose to amend the SDO to explicitly extend coverage to land-based transport means when it is operating outside Hong Kong. This is obviously misleading.
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In explaining sections 41(6) and (7) the Government said that a victim of sexual harassment which occurs on a local ship while sailing in the open sea or on a local aircraft flying in the international airspace governed by no jurisdiction, or while the ship or aircraft is in another jurisdiction could lodge a complaint with the EOC after returning to Hong Kong and act in accordance with the law ― this is stated in the 12th paragraph of the report of the Bills Committee ― Therefore, this is basically not a question of jurisdictional vacuum. Even if a victim is subject to sexual harassment on board a local ship or aircraft governed by another jurisdiction, the victim is still protected by sections 40(1) and (1A). From this we can see that it is unreasonable to exclude land-based transport from new sections 41(6) and (7) and this will only cause suspicions about the Government being afraid of the communist party, OK? It is sparing the rat to save the dishes, right? This is why trains, cross-boundary coaches, and so on, are not incorporated into the provisions.
During the scrutiny by the Bills Committee there were views that the Government must consider employers' legal liabilities for sexual harassment of their employees by customers in the workplace. It is indisputable that employers have the legal responsibility to provide a safe working environment to their employees, and this responsibility should be extended to the provision of a work environment free of sexual harassment to the employees. The Administration should introduce legislative amendments to require employers to reasonably provide such an environment to the employees. Although this issue is covered in the review of the SDO currently undertaken by the EOC, if the Government does not have the determination and courage to introduce amendments to the SDO, this would not be achieved even in the next three, five or seven years. This is also what we can see from past experiences or records.
Therefore, given the various inadequacies of the Bill, I really cannot support the Bill. How can we simply "pocket it first", just as Mr CHAN Chi-chuen has said? Why should we "pocket it first"? On the one hand, we vow to eliminate all forms of discrimination but on the other, we assist the Government to pinpoint the unconventional men or women, persons of the third gender and sexual minorities in the legislative amendments, hurting these people for a second time. This is what these legislative amendments are about, right? This should have been a piece of cake to the Government as all it has to do is to include them in the provisions but it has not done so. If I support the Government, is it not tantamount to discrimination against the sexual minorities LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2991 or transgender people for a second time? Society is already discriminatory against them. Will this not constitute double discrimination against them and hence hurt them for a second time? Therefore, with regard to these amendments, Deputy President, I will abstain.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): In fact, the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) has been unfair at the outset. Under section 40 of the SDO, if a service provider harasses a customer, the customer may lodge a complaint to the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC). But on the contrary, in the case of harassment of a service provider by a customer, the service provider cannot lodge any complaint. Although the SDO has been in effect for many years, this loophole has all along been there.
Studies conducted by the Association for the Advancement of Feminism found that people in certain occupations such as nurses, beer promoters, waitresses and airline hostesses as mentioned by Members earlier on were particularly vulnerable to sexual harassment. But most sadly, after being sexually harassed, they have no way to get their grievances redressed. If an employee is sexually harassed by her employer, she may lodge a complaint. However, if the sexual harasser is a customer, she can only remain silent. As no complaint can be lodged, she may turn to the EOC, but it will just serve no purpose because the EOC is unable to take any action. As the EOC is unable to take any action, naturally people will not lodge any complaint to the EOC. They are actually deprived of avenues of redress. Where can the victims lodge a complaint? Neither the Police nor the EOC will entertain these cases. No one will ever care about these things. Even if a victim comes to our trade union, all we can do is to advise the employer to try to resolve the matter. Nevertheless, employers are not legally bound to handle it. Hence, in respect of the above situation, victims have been deprived of complaint avenues for many years. It was until recently that the issue again became a topic for discussion. Earlier on, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen also said that they had been waiting for many years. The situation should have been addressed much earlier as it is long overdue.
In fact, we can see that the situation is rather serious. One of the affiliates of the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions is the Hong Kong Flight Attendants Alliance, which covers all flight attendants unions. They have 2992 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 conducted a survey jointly with the EOC. What are the findings? The findings show that 27% of the respondents indicated that they had been sexually harassed in the previous year. In other words, one out of every four persons have had such an experience, an indicator of the seriousness of the situation. Certainly, as remarked by Mr CHAN Chi-chuen earlier on, if the respondents are beer promoters, perhaps 70% of them will say that they have had such an undignified experience. Thus, if we intend to indicate our zero tolerance for sexual harassment, amendments must be made to the law.
Honestly, even if legislative amendments can be introduced, I am still very much worried. The reason is that they have to overcome numerous obstacles in the complaint process, which is very time-consuming, and they must also gather evidence. I believe that only a minority of victims will actually lodge a complaint to the EOC. Very often, they will just continue to remain silent. How can we help these victims to break the silence? We have to address the situation from another perspective, meaning that we have to seek to explore the responsibility of employers. But regrettably, when we asked about the issue concerning the responsibility of employers at a meeting of the Bills Committee, the EOC advised that a study was then underway. And when we further asked about the expected duration of the study, they indicated that it would take half a year. In fact, there is no way for us to anticipate what will happen after the study, and when the findings are ready, a discussion with the Government is necessary. In that case, no one knows when it will come into effect.
Hence, in our view, all matters should be considered as a whole. Apart from introducing legislative amendments to protect employees against sexual harassment, the Government should also set out the responsibility of employers. What is the responsibility of employers? Actually, as in the case of occupational diseases and industrial safety, employers have the responsibility to provide a safe working environment. Similarly, as regards the prevention of sexual harassment, employers also have the responsibility to provide a working environment free of sexual harassment. Employers have the responsibility to provide this kind of environment and enforce the relevant guidelines to protect employees against sexual harassment. It is not to say that employers are immediately subject to civil or criminal liability whenever an employee is sexually harassed. Employers should take up the relevant responsibility at the outset. It is not our intention to sue the employers regardless of the situation whenever an incident happens.
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On that day, some representatives of employers were present ― some of them certainly did not participate of their own volition ― and when they spoke, they described the situation as if employers would easily be sued. But this is not true. One of them even questioned if they should refrain from hiring good-looking employees. I think labelling employees as good-looking or ordinary looking is a downright insult to employees. Such remarks have gone too far and are discriminatory in nature. I surely do not want people to throw the baby out with the bath water and hold women responsible, attributing the problem to their good look. We certainly do not encourage this kind of thinking.
Regrettably though, the issue is now shelved, pending the study by the EOC. We believe that full enforcement of the law is possible only with the imposition of responsibility on employers because we just cannot always rely on the complaints lodged by employees themselves. And to them, it is a rather harsh requirement. If employers are willing to do so … Members will certainly say that the EOC should take time to educate employers. We do not object to education, but very often, enacting legislation is the most effective education. Following the enactment of legislation, people will naturally be awakened to the fact that they have to bear the responsibility. As long as there is no legislation in place, employers will often think that it has got nothing to do with them. We do not want any legislation either, but what we are talking about is a hard fact. We hope that education can serve the purpose, but in reality, it does not work. As in the case of our discussion on the minimum wage, even if we educated employers to refrain from exploiting their employees and setting too low a wage level, they would still do so. The reason is that in the absence of regulation by legislation, such things will naturally happen. Besides, we have also educated employers to refrain from practising age discrimination, but discrimination still exists as education cannot serve the purpose. Legislation is the best education. Once the Government enacts legislation, it can achieve the purpose of education, so that employers will immediately become aware of the seriousness and take actions, such as seeking professional advice on ways to provide a good working environment. Hence, I think it is absolutely proper for us to address the issue this way.
Unfortunately, now it is not known how many years we have to wait before it comes into effect. We are always forced to "pocket it first" because of the "hostage" factor. Employers are holding all employees captive as hostages in their hands. Without the enactment of legislation, people will not even enjoy the most fundamental protection. I often wonder why they cannot adopt a more 2994 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 thorough approach. They turn things into a mess every time. After discussions, we will never know how many years we have to wait before the next amendment exercise comes. For this reason, I am much disappointed at the failure to provide employees with comprehensive protection. And even if this amendment is passed and on the surface, employees seem to be protected, we are worried that in reality, they still have to overcome numerous obstacles and face enormous difficulties in the absence of comprehensive legislation. Thus, I hope that the Secretary will advise us whether the Government plans to enact legislation in relation to the responsibility of employers, and when it will do so. Nevertheless, I believe he will just dodge the matter by all sorts of excuses as usual because he is most adept at "beating around the bush". The Secretary has yet to give a definite reply to date, and I am deeply disappointed by that.
Thank you, Deputy President.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If not, I will call upon the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs to reply. The debate will come to a close after the Secretary has replied.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I move that the Second Reading of the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 (the Bill) be resumed.
First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Chairman, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, and members of the Bills Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill, including the public hearing conducted during the scrutiny.
At present, under section 40(1) of the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (Cap. 480) (SDO), it is unlawful for a service provider to sexually harass a customer. However, the SDO does not render unlawful any sexual harassment of a service provider by a customer.
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In Hong Kong, there is a large number of employees in the service industries, for example, there are over 260 000 workers in the retail industry, over 230 000 workers in the food and beverage services industry, over 45 000 nurses and about 17 000 flight attendants. In order to protect employees of the service industries against sexual harassment by customers, the Government proposes to render unlawful any sexual harassment against providers or prospective providers of goods, facilities or services through the Bill.
Furthermore, in consideration of the unique environment on ships and aircraft, and making reference to the practice of other jurisdictions, the Administration has decided to extend the scope of application of the SDO in respect of sexual harassment between service providers and customers from cases that take place within the territory of Hong Kong to those that take place on board a Hong Kong registered ship or aircraft. No matter if the ship or aircraft is within or outside the territory of Hong Kong at the material time, this amendment will afford the same legal protection to these customers and service providers.
Deputy President, subject to the passage of the Bill, we will make appropriate allocation of resources to the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) to enable it to step up publicity, so as to enable members of the public to gain a better understanding of the new provisions in law. The EOC is also ready to handle complaint cases that may arise.
During the scrutiny by the Bills Committee and at the meeting just now, a number of Members also raised concerns about several areas, including gender-specific references in the Bill, the so-called gender "X" issue, employer's liability, and such issues as the experience of tour guides of the tourism industry travelling overseas and after they have landed. I believe it is worthy for us to continue to study and discuss these issues. A number of these issues have also been touched on in the review of the several pieces of existing anti-discrimination legislation just completed by the EOC. To my understanding, the EOC will submit its recommendations to the Administration a few months later, that is, in mid-2015. After receiving the recommendations, we will examine them in an open and proactive attitude and will also have discussions with the relevant panels.
Deputy President, once again, I thank the Bills Committee for completing the scrutiny. I am also pleased to hear many Members say in their speeches just now that they would support this Bill. Deputy President, I hereby move the resumed Second Reading of the Bill and hope that Members will support its passage.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
Mr CHAN Chi-chuen rose to claim a division.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Chi-chuen has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr James TO, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Ms Emily LAU, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Prof Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mrs Regina IP, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr Steven HO, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr Gary FAN, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the motion. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2997
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT, Mr Andrew LEUNG, did not cast any vote.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT announced that there were 49 Members present and 48 were in favour of the motion. Since the question was agreed by a majority of the Members present, he therefore declared that the motion was passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
Council went into Committee.
Committee Stage
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.
SEX DISCRIMINATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 2014
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 4.
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That clauses 1 to 4 stand part of the Bill. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands) 2998 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council now resumes.
Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.
SEX DISCRIMINATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 2014
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the
Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014 be read the Third time and do pass.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 2999
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Bill 2014.
MEMBERS' MOTIONS
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions: Proposed resolution under the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance to extend the period for amending the Dangerous Dogs Regulation (Exemption) (Amendment) Notice 2014 and the Rabies (TNR Programme) (Exemption) Notice, which were laid on the table of this Council on 20 November 2014.
I now call upon Ms Claudia MO to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER SECTION 34(4) OF THE INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, in my capacity as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Dangerous Dogs Regulation (Exemption) (Amendment) Notice 2014 and Rabies (TNR Programme) (Exemption) Notice, I move the motion to extend the scrutiny period of the two Notices as set out in the motion to 14 January 2015.
3000 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
At the House Committee meeting on 21 November 2014, Members decided to set up a subcommittee to study the two Legal Notices as set out in the motion. As the Subcommittee needs more time for deliberation, I urge Members to support this motion to extend the scrutiny period of the two Notices to 14 January 2015.
Ms Claudia MO moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that in relation to the ―
(a) Dangerous Dogs Regulation (Exemption) (Amendment) Notice 2014, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 137 of 2014; and
(b) Rabies (TNR Programme) (Exemption) Notice, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 138 of 2014,
and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 20 November 2014, the period for amending subsidiary legislation referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 14 January 2015."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Claudia MO be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Claudia MO be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3001
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motion for adjournment: Motion for the adjournment of the Council under Rule 16(2) of the Rules of Procedure.
I have granted Dr Kenneth CHAN permission to move an adjournment motion under Rule 16(2) of the Rules of Procedure at today's meeting for the purpose of debating the following issue: the Police's assistance in enforcing the injunction orders in Mong Kok and its handling of public assemblies since 25 November 2014.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The mover of the motion and other Members each may speak for up to 15 minutes.
Members who wish to speak on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Dr Kenneth CHAN to speak and move the motion.
MOTION FOR THE ADJOURNMENT OF THE COUNCIL UNDER RULE 16(2) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I move "That this Council do now adjourn for the purpose of debating the following issue: the Police's assistance in enforcing the injunction orders in Mong Kok and its handling of public assemblies since 25 November 2014."
3002 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Deputy President, LEUNG Chun-ying is an irresponsible Chief Executive, for he has passed the constitutional reform issues to front-line police officers and sought to use batons and police power rather than political means to resolve political issues.
On 25 and 26 November, I believe many people, including Members who are present and I, witnessed the Police's use of force to stage a clearance operation in the form of a de facto curfew in Mong Kok. Although the scope of the injunction order imposed in Mong Kok was originally confined to the roads near Nathan Road, we could see that the scope of police operations was getting larger and larger in these two days, including in the evenings, reaching as far as Portland Street, Shanghai Street and Reclamation Street.
During the operations, we could see that the Police used pepper based solution on members of the public and chased after unarmed citizens in Portland Street. For instance, a Mr CHENG was hit by a Police Superintendent on the neck from the back when he left the scene with a friend of his. A Mr TANG, who lived at the junction of Nathan Road in Mong Kok and Hamilton Street, was arrested by the Police and charged with allegedly obstructing a police officer in the execution of his duty on his way home at around 7 pm on Wednesday evening. When he recalled how he was arrested by the Police on that day, he said (and I quoted) to this effect, "The police officer banged my head against the corner of a table and forcibly twisted my right palm backward until a cracking sound was heard. Since I liked playing music and guitar, I asked myself that what I could do if I was injured. I was so afraid that my hand could not function anymore." I also know a Mr PANG, whom I met in a Catholic church. Being a youth worker, he was present on the scene that evening to provide assistance for young people he knew in the hope of taking them away from the violent scene to take temporary refuge in a safe place. But he was charged by the Police with unlawful assembly.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
Furthermore, we could see the presence of journalists at the front line. We have been very grateful to them for reporting the truth and revealing the facts. However, a crew member of now TV, who was responsible for engineering, was arrested and charged with assaulting a police officer with an aluminium ladder LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3003 after being subdued and pressed on to the ground by the Police. Later, an Apple Daily reporter was seen being accused indiscriminately by a police officer of snatching his police revolver. Fortunately, thanks to a video footage taken by a South China Morning Post reporter, he was eventually cleared of the charge. It was found that the Apple Daily reporter did not touch any police officer. Instead, a police officer moved backward for no reason and arrested the reporter in the course of filming for an unfounded charge.
Do the pro-government Members in this Council understand the importance of press freedom to Hong Kong? Why would they make accusations and request the journalists to leave to avoid obstructing police officers in the execution of their duty? During the Umbrella Movement, we could see journalists and the media repeatedly attacked and smeared, with some front-line journalists being arrested and even assaulted. A functional constituency Member representing the cultural sector ― Mr MA Fung-kwok ― was even found to be totally unconcerned about the sector. What is more, he even accused the media of obstructing police officers in the enforcement of law, thus completely exposing the ignorance of his and other pro-government Members. Is Members' disrespect for journalists and press freedom tantamount to depriving Hong Kong people of their basic right to know? Has Hong Kong been plunged into a state of complete darkness with the police power expanding to such an extent that police officers are allowed to act in a hegemonist manner?
The many scenes of loss of control over the past couple of days remain vivid before our eyes. We must solemnly and thoroughly investigate accusations related to a police officer who allegedly threatened to bring a female protester back to a police station to rape her when dispersing protesters in the vicinity of Admiralty. Furthermore, a police officer was found raising his middle finger to provoke protesters. When a few colleagues who worked in the same university as mine visited the scene in the hope of offering assistance to the students to advise them not to take further actions for their own safety, Prof Patrick Henry TOY, an Associate Professor of the Department of Chemistry of the University of Hong Kong, was arrested probably because he raised some questions as he only speaks English but not Cantonese. Furthermore, Joshua WONG, a member of Scholarism who was arrested in Mong Kok, alleged that his private parts were attacked by police officers on numerous occasions during his detention. What sort of society is it?
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Recently, the Police have been reluctant to spare the voluntary medical team responsible for providing medical treatment services on the scene of Admiralty. In a statement issued jointly by Dr AU Yiu-Kai and a group of first-aid volunteers, the Police are strongly condemned for their abuse of violence. The sonorous statement has also indicated their anger. During the past two months or so, they have been providing services for the public in the occupied areas, demanding themselves and other volunteers to maintain political neutrality and prohibiting volunteers from chanting slogans and directly participating in protests.
However, in the early hours of 1 December, the most violent incident since the one occurred on 28 September broke out, with serious injuries caused by the Police's use of violence in clearing the sites. During the incident, some police officers were even found to publicly aim their batons at the voluntary doctors and nurses on duty or stated clearly that volunteers seeking to save people would be arrested. There were even attempts to make unreasonable arrests. What is more, a volunteer was injured after being violently punched in the back by a police officer when the former was examining another plain-clothes police officer who lost consciousness in the lobby of Admiralty Centre. It had never crossed the mind of Dr AU and the volunteers that police officers would have gone out of control that they could treat the medical personnel who had been rescuing the injured, helping those who were in distress and guarding Hong Kong people with violence verging on insanity. During the incident, the medical team was even attacked by other police officers when it was helping some injured police officers out of humanity and neutrality. It is evident that the Police Force have already lost emotional control and gone out of their mind. How can we not feel a chill down our spine with these law-enforcement officers? It is detestable that the LEUNG Chun-ying Administration has not only failed to condemn such acts, but it has also affirmed the Police's abuse of violence on the following day in the belief that bloodshed and violence can deter the medical personnel, who concluded their statement with these words: "We have never thought of retreating. There is nowhere for us to retreat in this chaotic world."
President, both you and I know it very well that the use of force can simply not solve problems. Like haunted by nightmares, we are perplexed by the scenes of bloodshed in Admiralty and other occupied zones. Mr Kevin LAU of Ming Pao Daily News concluded one of his commentaries with these words, to this effect, "A small number of people inside the Government might be fond of engaging in power struggles or pleased with their success in inciting hatred in the public against the occupiers. Will these people please remember when the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3005 serpent of hatred is released from the underground abyss, it will poison society with far-reaching consequences. What is more, it will hit back at the rich and powerful one day, making it too late for the powers-that-be to regret.".
President, three students are now staging a hunger strike for an indefinite period to call for a dialogue. In addition to an open letter issued by them to LEUNG Chun-ying today, a letter was written by me just now to Chief Secretary for Administration Carrie LAM in which a similar request was made by me. The choice between dialogue or clearance, civilized or violent means depends entirely on a flash in the mind of the powers-that-be. Although we are queried by some people in a mocking manner what purpose it will serve for us to request dialogue with the Government, we refuse to yield to hatred, cynicism and powerlessness. So long as the students remain, we will protect, care for and help them because it is in Hong Kong's overall interest and for the sake of striving for genuine universal suffrage that they have come forth.
President, the Umbrella Movement will not come to an end just because some people have retreated, turned themselves in or been cleared. The police officers must fully understand that they will continue to pay a price for LEUNG Chun-ying for his irresponsible behaviour. After passing the political pressure to the front-line police officers, LEUNG Chun-ying does not need to do anything. Instead, the police officers, who are made to take the brunt, will be reduced to political henchmen. As a result, the Police Force will become something of public security officers, thereby plunging Hong Kong into the abyss of a police society. Should the police officers adopt a hostile attitude towards young people, the latter will definitely treat the former in the same manner.
Today, we have received a report compiled by the Independent Police Complaints Council and noted that 2 500-odd complaints and 4 000-odd allegations in total were made in 2013-2014, with nearly half of them involving cases related to police officers' misconduct, poor attitude, use of abusive language and assault. I am sure that the number of such cases will soar when the relevant report is received by this Council next year.
President, all Hong Kong people must take up a bigger share of commitment in this movement. The Umbrella Movement will continue to mushroom and remain in Hong Kong. LEUNG Chun-ying, instead of hiding behind police power, you ought to come forth as a man of commitment to open dialogue with the students, with a view to resolving this crisis by political means.
I so submit. 3006 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Dr Kenneth CHAN moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That this Council do now adjourn for the purpose of debating the following issue: the Police's assistance in enforcing the injunction orders in Mong Kok and its handling of public assemblies since 25 November 2014."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That this Council do now adjourn.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Occupy Central movement or the Occupy action is now into the third month, causing extremely widespread and substantive adverse impacts on the daily life of the community, traffic and transport, emergency rescue services and operation of the Government. As protesters stir up troubles in various districts frequently and provoke chaos with violence, they are exhausting the Police, disregarding the interest of the public and causing enormous repercussions in society. The opinion polls conducted by various tertiary institutions and people's organizations indicated unequivocally that the majority of Hong Kong people are tired of Occupy Central and consider that it should end as soon as possible.
Some time ago, the High Court granted injunction orders in respect of three cases concerning the obstruction of certain roads in Mong Kok and the obstruction of the entrance and exit of CITIC Tower, clearly instructing that the bailiff may take all reasonable and necessary steps to assist the plaintiff and its agents in effecting the clearance and removal of the obstructions. The injunction order states clearly that the bailiff be authorized and directed to request the assistance of the Police where necessary.
It is also pointed out unequivocally in the court order that any police officer be authorized to arrest and remove any person who the police officer reasonably believes or suspects to be obstructing or interfering any bailiff in carrying out his or her duties in enforcing the terms of the injunction order, provided that the person to be arrested has been informed of the gist of the terms of the court order and that his action is likely to constitute a breach of the order and obstruction of the administration of justice, and that he may be arrested if he does not desist.
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The Judge of the Court of First Instance and the Justices of Appeal of the Court of Appeal have pointed out clearly in their ruling that the terms of the injunction orders had no bearing on the Police's enforcement power under general law. The applications for injunction orders and their execution have been widely covered by the media. The plaintiffs concerned have published the content of the injunction order in local newspapers in compliance with the requirement of the injunction orders, and the injunction orders have been solemnly read out on the day of execution.
I hope Members will not be confused or misled by certain comments that the Police must or can only carry out their duties in accordance with the wording or scope specified in the injunction orders. As I pointed out earlier, the Police can enforce the law in accordance with the statutory powers conferred upon them under general law, including the Police Force Ordinance. According to section 10 of the Police Force Ordinance, the duties of the Police Force include taking lawful measures for preserving the public peace, preventing crimes and offences, and controlling traffic upon public thoroughfares and removing obstructions therefrom, and so on.
Since the reopening of roads in Mong Kok last week, a large number of troublemakers gathered unlawfully in other streets on the excuse that those streets are not within the scope of the injunction orders. These people provoked the mass to occupy the roads and resist the enforcement actions of the Police. These actions are extremely dangerous and irresponsible. In the couple of nights since 25 November, radicals and troublemakers have been inciting others to charge the police cordon, hurl verbal abuses at the Police and engage in radical scuffles with police officers. Some radical protesters have attempted to gather unlawfully in various streets in Mong Kok and to block these roads again, including Tung Choi Street, Sai Yueng Choi Street South, Nathan Road, Portland Street, Shanghai Street, Shan Tung Street, Soy Street and even Reclamation Street and Ferry Street, as well as the area stretching from Nathan Road to Tsim Sha Tsui. They attempted to block the roads all around, and some radicals used iron railings and wooden pellets to create barricades and attempted to cause chaos. Some even threw bamboo poles, umbrellas, water bottles, miscellaneous items and even unknown powder at police officers, remaining in a standoff against police officers on the scene.
The unlawful occupation of roads is an illegal act. If anyone attempts to block the reopened roads or other sections of roads, the Police are duty-bound to take resolute actions and to exercise our statutory powers to restore public order and protect public safety.
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The Police had issued repeated appeals and warnings on scene to the protestors through making public announcements and displaying warning banners to urge them to keep calm, and had provided sufficient time for the illegal road occupiers who were unlawfully assembling there to leave but they refused to comply. To prevent the situation from deteriorating, the Police had no other alternatives but to use the appropriate level of force, including the use of pepper spray, pepper based solution and baton, to stop their violent and unlawful acts and to arrest them.
From 25 November to 1 December, the Police had arrested 229 people during the Mong Kok action. The arrested are suspected of "resisting arrest", "disorderly conduct in a public place", "possession of offensive weapons", "possession of firearms without a licence", "assaulting police", "unlawful assembly" and "impeding police officers in the discharge of their duties", and so on, and 53 of them have been booked with charges. Regarding the 55 arrested for suspected criminal contempt cases in violating the injunction order issued by the High Court, 21 persons have been arranged to appear in the High Court on 28 November, and the case will be brought to the High Court on January next year. As for other arrests suspected of criminal contempt, they will be arranged to appear at the High Court in succession.
Regarding the radicals and the troublemakers who have made violent charge against police officers discharging duties, they are ruining social order and challenging the rule of law. The SAR Government strongly condemns these illegal acts. In the clashes over the past week in Mong Kok, around 80 persons were injured in the chaos and sent by ambulance to hospitals, while around 30 police officers were injured in the incident.
Occupy Central has lasted for a long time and aroused tremendous public grievances now. The Police have adopted the greatest level of tolerance towards these illegal acts. These repeated charges, continual blockade of roads and endless troublemaking acts are not only threatening public safety and public order but also exhausting enormous police strength. Shops around the occupied areas, be they chain stores or small shops, have to close for business temporarily due to the illegal acts of people in unlawful assembly and suffer a significant loss of business. The public are forced to make detours in and out, enduring extreme inconveniences and nuisances caused to their daily life. Besides, the nuisances over the nights have disrupted the sleep of residents there. The conduct of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3009 protesters does not only cause nuisances to the public, but is completely disregarding the rights of others and foregoing the well-being of the public. Hong Kong as a whole has to bear the expansive cost.
The Police have all along been stressing that Mong Kok is a high-risk area. In an operation carried out by the Police last week, the Police found protesters carrying dangerous items like an axe, a hammer, a crowbar, cutters and gasoline, and so on. Once again, I appeal to the public ― students in particular ― to stay away from these radicals and troublemakers and not to be incited by them to take any charging or violent actions. The roads in Mong Kok do not belong to certain protesters, they are thoroughfares of the public. Mong Kok is home to many people and many people have to earn their living there. I urge the protesters and troublemakers not to make any further attempts to block any roads or create troubles, and other people should not join any of these illegal actions.
I believe the general public will agree that if the concept of not abiding by the law continues to develop, it will erode the good foundation of the rule of law in Hong Kong, whereas Hong Kong people will be the ultimate victims. I urge protesters to stop all illegal acts immediately. I must state solemnly that anyone attempting to block the roads again or disrupt public order, the Police will be determined in taking resolute enforcement actions to restore public order and protect public safety.
With these remarks, President, I will give another response after Members have spoken. Thank you, President.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, I rise to speak against Dr Kenneth CHAN's motion. Being the guilty party, he has just made a pre-emptive move, using 13 minutes and 48 seconds to launch a verbal attack. I took great regrets to note it. First, he has not declared that their interests and roles conflict with the question raised by him because the Civic Party itself is one of the sponsors, organizers and instigators of this unlawful Occupy movement. Besides, in his speech that lasted 13 minutes and 48 seconds, he did not utter a word in condemnation of the violent acts in breach of the law, and just levelled lopsided criticisms at the Police and smeared front-line police officers. I am immensely puzzled by such remarks made by him.
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At 3 pm today, the trio organizers of Occupy Central turned themselves in. They called on people who were still staying in the occupied areas to retreat. But surprisingly, Dr Kenneth CHAN spoke in favour of these unlawful acts, running counter to the trio turning themselves in and their call for retreat. I do not know what the Civic Party and Dr Kenneth CHAN are doing.
President, his motion for the adjournment of the Council mentions the law-enforcement acts of the Police at places including Mong Kok after 25 November. All Hong Kong people must learn about the reason for mentioning this particular date because after the execution of the interim court injunction covering Admiralty and Mong Kok, various riots and acts causing public nuisances take place in the Mong Kok area every evening. Some people unlawfully call on others on the Internet to go shopping, stroll down the streets, have meals and launch armed uprisings in Mong Kok. They engaged in illegal incitement and mobilization on the Internet. Seeing that they are barred from staying on the roads covered by the court injunction after the clearance of barricades, they then hijack the interests of people in Mong Kok, Yau Ma Tei and Tsim Sha Tsui areas and disrupt social order by four approaches, namely guerrilla, mobile, disturbing and cross-district approaches. On the one hand, they act in contempt of the court injunction as a revenge against it, and on the other, they have caused huge disturbances to the Police, attempting to cause the Police Force to collapse in order to complement the unlawful acts in the so-called occupied areas in Admiralty and Causeway Bay. Basically these are the two aims.
Honestly, on seeing such acts that cause public nuisances, any normal person ― I am talking about a normal person ― will develop strong hatred as he watches those scenes broadcast on the 24-hour news channel when he turns on the television set every evening. Everyone has lost their appetite and become reluctant to watch television programmes. We all speak in one voice to criticize and condemn these crimes. Nevertheless, as I pointed out earlier on, Dr Kenneth CHAN of the Civic Party has not uttered even a single word in condemnation of such unlawful acts which harm public interest. It is really outrageous. Such a Legislative Council Member calls us royalists, but there is not a "royal king" in Hong Kong. We are for the "people", namely a "party for the people", while your Civic Party is a "party against the people". For seven or eight evenings in a row, such guerrilla, mobile and disturbing acts have messed up Mong Kok, causing residents in Mong Kok and Yau Ma Tei sleepless nights. The commotion is utterly annoying, and stores are experiencing a business slump. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3011
They have really gone too far. One example is the incident that occurred last night. They obstructed someone who was about to roll down the gate, and now you are still instigating them. What are you up to? Not only did they stop a public light bus from pulling off, they also demanded issue of a traffic ticket. Have they gone too far? A large number of the ordinary masses and grassroots are living and working there, a place that serves as a lifeline for traders and commercial tenants in work and doing business. But they are now disturbed by you people. I think this has clearly shown that the Civic Party is inhumane.
You, who brag about your membership of the "Barristers' Party", behave in such a way towards these acts which seriously challenge the Court's ruling, gravely jeopardize public interests and deal a severe blow to Hong Kong's core values. I feel very regretful, and I am sorry for you as you are hurting your own good name.
President, front-line police officers have been on duty continuously, particularly in the past seven or eight evenings in a row. They are working long hours every day, and may have even cancelled their leave. They are now in a situation that requires them to work day in and day out and bear a heavy workload in maintaining order, upholding the rule of law in Hong Kong with their bodies. I hereby take this opportunity to salute to the front-line police officers, and extend my profound sympathy to those injured police officers. Also, I hope the Secretary will convey a message for us, and that is "We support you! We support Hong Kong Police!" The Police are the last line of defence of the rule of law in Hong Kong. If it collapses, the situation in Hong Kong will be too ghastly to contemplate.
As we can see, police officers are challenged by all kinds of insults by law-breakers, including vulgar gestures and curses that they are dogs or black cops. Even their ancestors are cursed. Police officers are also human beings! They have parents just as everyone does. Should they be treated that way?
They charge the police cordon by various acts such as physical bumpings and attacks. Dr Kenneth CHAN claims that they are unarmed. So, what are the articles uncovered by the Police in searches? We just cannot imagine the level of danger faced by the Police, and the number of offensive weapons yet to be uncovered. The Police have found stone debris, lime powder, sharp bottle openers, axes, crowbars, cutters, hammers, the so-called shields with nails and airguns, and so on, and they have even uncovered the workshop for 3012 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 manufacturing these illegal weapons. Had such illegal offensive weapons not been uncovered by the Police thanks to their superior experience in enforcement, the consequence would be unimaginable.
President, given such situations and confusions, especially the incident last night which I believe every one of you can see that it may turn into a repeat of the Lan Kwai Fong stampede ― under such circumstances, if individual police officers have displayed some deviant behaviour or emotional outbreak ― I do not rule out such possibilities ― we should still express understanding and sympathy. If such allegations are valid, people can file complaints. They can absolutely file complaints by means of the existing avenues of complaint in place. However, we should avoid a one-sided approach, judging the deeds of the Police as a whole on the basis of certain acts committed by individual law-enforcement officers, followed by smearing. Is this a right thing to do? And is this fair? In particular, the Civic Party has not made any declaration in respect of this motion. They are in fact the originators. Why do they omit their "flags planted" in the occupied area in Admiralty? This is a deliberate cover-up in an attempt to mislead the public. Hence, let me use a rather coarse expression, that is, I have to "blow the whistle" on them because they are downright contemptible.
In fact, President, given this sorry state and judging from the previous speeches and attitudes of those from the pan-democratic camp with legal background, they should be held primarily responsible for the mayhem today. For example, as a lawyer, Mr Albert HO of the Democratic Party openly stated that the existing legal system in Hong Kong amounted to the Nazi legal regime of Germany during the Second World War. We just cannot believe he would compare it to the legal system of Hong Kong and point out that "the rule of law is more than unconditional compliance with the law". Who could have thought that he would say such things. And as a barrister, Mr Dennis KWOK of the Civic Party surprisingly indicated that the Police had no right to conduct clearance operations by virtue of the injunction. Such comments made by them will mislead the public or stir up their emotions, practically serving to motivate, encourage and instigate occupiers to confront and break the law. Although they have not taken an active role, they have indirectly led to the occupiers' trespasses. This is more terrible than any visible physical weapons, and more ruthless than any physical ancient weapons.
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The judgment in relation to the injunction covering Admiralty and Mong Kok passed by the High Court states to the following effect: "All must obey the injunction. Any person assisting or instigating others to disobey the injunction also commits contempt of court and is criminally liable". The judgment is very clear. I wish to know the views of the barristers from the Civic Party and Democratic Party ― now Mr Albert HO is back. How do they interpret the High Court judgment?
Therefore, in my opinion, if they still have a little bit of conscience left, if they still think Hong Kong should not go into degeneration in this way, and if they regard the fight that has lasted some 60 days … Hong Kong people can bear no more torture by them, and all our blood is about to drain away. Would they please … they have decided not to turn themselves in for the time being although they have signed a surrender form. Anyhow, the Occupy Central Trio have come forward to turn themselves in today, calling for an end to the movement and a retreat. In view of this, if they still have a little bit of conscience left, I sincerely urge them to make an open appeal in the debate today to the members of the public in the occupied areas to leave immediately, thereby bringing an end to this movement. After that, they can turn themselves in. I think most Hong Kong people will still forgive them. However, I believe they will only suffer a greater loss and a more catastrophic failure if they remain stubborn. Hong Kong people will definitely "settle the debt of votes with votes"!
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): After listening to a speech like the one made by Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Members would really do not know how to react. I can see that the President looks embarrassed, for he does not know whether he should bear with him or at least ask him to lower his voice. I suspect Mr WONG Kwok-hing actually adores the Civic Party very much, right? He says that our party plays a part in planning, organizing and inciting the Occupy Central movement or the Umbrella Movement. As a member of the Civic Party ― actually I am a founding member, I have never heard of things like that. Would Mr WONG produce proof? Despite his agitated speech, I would think that it is no more than barking. Sorry, he has just apologized for using a coarse term. Now I will do the same thing. Normally I would not say such things, but …
(Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung stood up and spoke)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, this is not the time for you to speak. Please sit down.
Ms Claudia MO, please continue with your speech.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): I hope that you can make up for the time lost.
President, people like Mr WONG Kwok-hing speak in such an emotional manner that makes us worry about their health. But irrespective of what he said, he is slapping his own face. For me, all along and right to this day, I think that there are good police officers in Hong Kong. He said that we should not deal with the issue with a sweeping attitude, passing the part as the whole. But why does he take certain protesters who hurl helmets or speak in foul language as typical of all protesters? In fact, the police officers are trained to make no response even when people hurl verbal abuses at them. They will not make any response unless you make a move of physical contact.
On the other hand, the Secretary is behaving in a most ridiculous way. The topic today is on the way the Police handled the mass rallies or executed the injunction. We are talking about what the Police have done. But he only gave an official account of the chronology of events. Then he said that the business of many shops had turned so bad, he said so in a most dramatic and vivid manner. And those few words were uttered by Mr WONG Kwok-hing in exactly the same way as the Secretary. This is really a seamless co-operation between the public and the officials.
President, this topic has been discussed over and over again. We all know what it is. Certain Members from the pro-establishment camp said earlier in the lift that they did not want to speak anymore because they had done so a countless number of times this year. Members from the democratic camp also said that it would be the sixth time they speak on the subject. Are they trying to make Members catch this police violence ― may be I should not say police violence ― fatigue for discussing police practice syndrome? I think it is just a waste of time because you speak what you think and they will just speak what they think. I once talked to my friend, "Can discussions be conducted in a more amicable atmosphere? This is because we are all Hongkongers."
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President, I once stood in Mong Kok and I could see that police officers standing in the first row were very young. I even thought that they had just passed out from the Police College in Wong Chuk Hang. They were very young, even younger than my two sons. These are all our young people, our next generation. About the cause of these clashes between the Police and the public, as my friend put it, it is perennial ― never-ending. There was a time when the whole incident appeared to have receded, but now it is coming back like the backlash of a wave. We really have to be sensible. Just look at the footage. A man was walking by and he was trying to protect a woman. Well, buddy, he was trying to protect a woman. He did not even look back. Then the officer hit his neck and back. No wonder they even arrested people like reporters because they are afraid of reporters shooting footages like that.
A friend of my friend is a university student. The officer said he was walking too slowly. He answered, "What?" His reply was taken by the Police to be too cocky. Then he was pushed to the ground and hit a number of times. He was not seriously injured, though. Then he was arrested and taken to the police station. Now he has been released and no charge is pressed against him. He feels that he has been fooled. The officer said to him, "Are you scared? If you are, you should stay at home and don't go out." Why do things like that happen? President, at first when the protest zones in Mong Kok were cleared, and it was five or six hours after the clearance and the crowd had dispersed. I know that Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung was arrested for no palpable reason. This is because not too long before the arrest was made, a senior officer came over to speak to Mr LEUNG and me. The officer said, "Mr LEUNG, Ms MO, please ask the crowd in the front and at the back to disperse a bit. Your words are more powerful than ours." Then we went to help and it was quite effective and the crowd dispersed. After I had left for a while, that is, from 8.45 am to 3.15 pm, I found Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung had already been arrested.
How strange. A Member was asked for help at one time, and the very same Member was at another. I do not know what charge will be pressed against Mr LEUNG. If it is contempt of court, then it is a criminal offence because he is considered to have obstructed the execution of an injunction. This is really unfair. Those people say all the time that police officers are human beings too. What is the point of stating this plain truth? I even have a friend whose son is a policeman. How can he not be a human being. We are all humans. But they are different because they have public powers. President, they have helmets, shields, pepper spray and now they even have pepper based 3016 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 solution, and also batons and guns. They always say that they are under great pressure. Well, who in Hong Kong is not under great pressure? President, you are under great pressure as well. Right? How can they just say that they are under great pressure? They must not forget that they are armed. They have a franchise or even monopoly of arms. They should make good use of their powers. Once they abuse them, it will really worry us.
At least they should have said this, "Despite the pressure, we will do our best. People should not take the part as the whole. There may be a small number of front-line police officers who may have not done so well. But we will undertake a review as soon as possible." The fact is you have done something, but why have you not admitted it? About that police superintendent who beat a passer-by, has he not been transferred to other duties? You have done something and the image of the Police is affected. Now it is far worse than before. The image of the Police is far worse than before. Why can something not be done properly? You say that people in the pro-establishment camp are busy shining shoes. This is their conditioned act as lackeys. It cannot be changed. Don't care about them. But the Government should serve the people. Why does the Secretary keep on provoking hostility, saying as if the Police were sacred and they deserve our utmost love while the citizens are mobsters? We are taxpayers and we pay tax to keep these officials. The Police are maintained by taxpayers. But he said on the contrary that the people of Hong Kong are bad guys. Some people say that certain people throw objects, so should they not be called mobsters? Are people who throw things mobsters? I have doubts about it. But I do agree that throwing objects may be a breach of the principle of peace and non-violence. However, some may say, "What principles should we go by? We have not signed anything."
President, this is a civilized society and every person has free will and the freedom to make decisions. Every person aged 18 or above shall be responsible for his own actions. We can ask people who engage in the so-called shopping activities in Mong Kok, who has incited them and who has organized them. There is really something done out of one's own initiative. Why do things like haphazard shopping or mobile occupation happen? Right on the first day after the protest zones in Mong Kok were cleared, things should have been fine. But the crowd did not disperse at once. I think anyone who has been shovelled around would not feel good. These people were driven like cattle, sheep, pigs and dogs into a fold. They gathered near Lan Kwai Fong to see what would happen next. I stood at the entrance of Lan Kwai Fong myself, near H&M. It LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3017 was a large pavement and the time was well past 6 pm. No, I was wrong. What have I said just now? What I meant by Lan Kwai Fong should be Langham Place. There was a large pavement and many people were standing there and I was one of them. All of a sudden the Police declared that it was an unlawful assembly. Is that not provocation? The Police had executed the injunction and the operation had completed. Then all of a sudden in Mong Kok, in this busiest spot in Hong Kong with the most people ― I have heard that it is the spot with the densest population in the world ― when it was said that there was an unlawful assembly in this crowded place, no wonder people booed.
At that time I had a friend from the Police on the scene and I asked him what would happen and why the people were so excited. He said it was the instruction from the commander. The Police are trained to take orders and will never question them. Likewise when you, President, make a ruling, we will not question it. This is how things are like. Right? I asked him what would happen. He said that he was worried too. And as more people were leaving their offices later, an incident might happen. He told me to leave first because I could do nothing there. So the Police knew what would happen. But things were not to be decided by those good police officers I know. The latest news is that a professor from the University of Hong Kong is alleged to have organized that siege on Lung Wo Road. What are you talking about? That professor was helping his friend to look for his kid. Are you out of your mind? This is what I call reckless arrests.
If a protester has done something bad, like talking in foul language or insulting the Police, the police officers can warn him and tell him to stop. When a protester takes certain actions and charges at the Police, he can be arrested. If the Police want to arrest anyone, it can certainly be done. If force is to be used, three or four police officers can subdue a protester. All this can be done. There is no need to kick the protester or surround him and kick him. The reporters told me that the most important purpose of the police officers surrounding a person is to prevent reporters from taking photos. Usually after two police officers have arrested a protester, the protester will be pushed to the ground, then four or five police officers will come from behind and surround the protester. The reporters will be blocked and they cannot take any photos. This is really going too far.
President, given the prevailing situation in Hong Kong, we cannot try to perpetuate hatred because it is like a circle that will just go round and round. 3018 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
People will point their fingers at each other. So what is the point of it? LEUNG Chun-ying has been hiding behind the law courts and the bailiffs. And finally he is hiding behind the Police. He makes use of young police officers as his political tools. It is because they will do anything which the commander at the top orders them to. When the commander says "beat", they will beat people up. When the commander says "use the baton", they will use the baton. Of course, batons are used to beat people up, not to massage people. When there is such a relationship between the Police and the people … Officials come out and speak on behalf of the Government. They say that everything done by the authorities is right. There is not the slightest mistake made by the Police. Only those people who block, occupy and stir up troubles all night through are in the wrong.
I have a friend who lives in the Jordan Road area. He goes to bed early and one night he was woken up by the noise at 2.30 am. It turned out that there was a shopping group below. Although he was shocked, he did not mind it at all. Although he was woken up by the noise, he fully understood what those young people downstairs were fighting for. These young people did not have anything else to do. For the authorities, those people who do not go to bed at 2.30 am and who go about shopping must be members of triad societies, or "MK kids". They think that these people should be beaten up and it would not matter if they are beaten to death. Why is our society so polarized? Why are the two sides so antagonized? And these people are officials, and I must say that their acts are shameful. I have given up on those pro-establishment people for all their slavish look and servile mentality. But officials should be neutral and at the service of the people. They should serve the people but now they are provoking hostilities. This is disgraceful. I feel sorry for those front-line young police officers. Some of them are very nice people. They gave water to the protesters. We all remember that. They used to be very nice. But what has happened now?
I thought that when the Secretary comes before this Council today, he would be saying something with a touch of feeling and his remarks would help soften the situation. But he still displays that rigid and unperturbed look. Is he thinking that he is leading a Cultural Revolution here in Hong Kong? He is really so lame. The Secretary may say that he is just reading from the script and it is none of his business. Is he another human tape-recorder? Is he playing as Mr LAI of 3.30 pm? He should not have made those remarks.
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President, LU Xun once commented on the slave mentality of the Chinese people and said that this kind of outlook could never be uprooted. I hope that with the young people of Hong Kong today, this mentality can be weeded out at root.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Occupy Central movement is mushrooming all over Hong Kong, including Admiralty, Causeway Bay and Mong Kok. Even Tsim Sha Tsui was once occupied. However, we can see that the occupied zones in Mong Kok have seen increasing incidence of violence with undesirable elements mixing with law-abiding citizens.
Regarding the Police's handling of the clearance operation in Mong Kok on 25 November, as mentioned by Dr Kenneth CHAN earlier, I would like to point out that the occupation by protesters of the major roads near Argyle Street and Nathan Road in Mong Kok for nearly two months has caused great disturbance and financial losses to nearby shop owners and residents, and even countless people passing by the occupied roads. Moreover, it has caused incessant conflicts with anti-Occupy Central people. Coupled with the occurrence of other crimes, the Occupy movement is simply like a ticking time bomb posing serious threats to social order and safety.
This is why some affected organizations have filed a writ in court requesting the issue of injunction orders against the occupiers to prohibit them from continuing to occupy the roads for the sake of restoring order to Mong Kok expeditiously. There is absolutely no problem with the provision of assistance by the Police upon request because it is compatible with the Court's ruling.
As regards the doubts cast and allegations made by some Members concerning the excessive use of force by the Police in assisting bailiffs in removing obstacles, I think that the accusations are unfounded. To start with, we have to look at the attitude of the occupiers towards the injunction orders issued by the Court. Should they respect the Court's ruling and observe the rule of law, they ought to have taken the initiative to retreat from the occupied zones and remove the obstacles of their own accord. It is a shame that quite a number of them publicly defied the Court. Every day, they used all sorts of excuses to impede the Police in clearing obstacles obstructing the roads. In the evening, more than a thousand occupiers would act as human barricades and move to places not covered by the injunction orders, such as Portland Street. They even 3020 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 launched massive counter-attack and charging operations by way of unlawful assemblies to constantly challenge and charge the police cordon. It is indeed reasonable and sensible for the Police, which are shouldering the major responsibility of maintaining social order, to take action to disperse the occupiers.
As for the doubts cast in relation to the use of excessive force by the Police, let us look at their gear. Besides such gear as shields and batons, pepper based solution was also used by the Police in the evening of 25 November. According to information, the spray, which is actually pepper based solution, is the gear of the Police Tactical Unit. Although its composition is similar to that of pepper spray, its dosage can be adjusted by combining 350 ml of pepper with 15 litres of water. According to media reports, the Police decided to use the pepper based solution because its degree of damage to occupiers is considered to be lower than that of compressed tear gas and it can be deployed over a greater area. Can the use of pepper based solution be considered as excessive force? If so, does it mean that the Police can only spray water as weak as rain the next time to disperse the crowds?
Let us take a look at the gear of the occupiers. Although they are not law-enforcement officers and are not supposed to possess any weapons or gear, they have made themselves wooden shields, moved the iron railings around, and so on, in a bid to charge at the police officers and fight against them with the persistent use of umbrellas. Although umbrellas are not weapons, as we all know, there are steel rods inside an umbrella which might injure the police officers at any time in the midst of chaos. According to an announcement made by the Police earlier, quite a number of police officers were injured by the occupiers with umbrellas. Hence, the use of umbrellas against police officers is no different from assaulting them. Worse still, it was reported by the media that during the enforcement of law by the Police on 25 November, there were assault cases involving the dropping of bleach and bamboo sticks from a height. In areas near Nathan Road opposite the Shantung Street nearby, the Police even discovered axes, sledge-hammers and crowbars, which were suspected to be the weapons used by the occupiers. The consequences are definitely unimaginable should the occupiers use such weapons against the Police.
Let us make another comparison of the performance of the Police and the occupiers during the clearance operation in the evening of 25 November. Each time when the occupiers stormed the Police, the former would exert their utmost to provoke the latter and then pick the favourable opportunity to launch a group LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3021 attack by pushing and shoving the police officers. In the interim, the occupiers would continue to point fingers at the police officers and even make indecent gestures to insult the latter. The behaviour of the occupiers was no different from that of triads. Before dispersing the occupiers and resorting to force, the Police would use loud speakers and display banners to repeatedly warn the occupiers to leave of their own accord. Compared to the radical occupiers, the Police have, on the contrary, behaved in a most restrained manner. This shows that our Police Force are highly civilized.
The use of violence and excessive force in law enforcement by the Police has always been called into question by quite a number of Members. Actually, what sort of behaviour is regarded as "enforcing the law with violence"? In the eyes of many pan-democrat Members, the United States is the freest and most democratic country in the world. Members might as well browse the Internet for videos showing how police officers in the United States deal with the protesters in Wall Street to find out what it is meant by "enforcing the law with violence". Actually, when confronted by people who engage in provocation, the police in the United States will use real arms at any time for suppression purposes. In August this year, the shooting and killing of a youth by the police in Ferguson, St Louis sparked a series of riots. Consequently, even the National Guards were deployed by the authorities concerned in the United States to suppress the rioters. The scenes there were many times more violent than those in Hong Kong. Compared with the use of force by police officers in the United States for suppression, the police officers in Hong Kong are indeed much too polite. It is fortunate that the Occupy Central action takes place in Hong Kong and that the protesters face such a professional Police Force. I am afraid we will not be the same today should the ones who enforce the law here are the police officers from the United States.
The pan-democrat Members have from time to time described the occupiers as using their bodies of flesh and blood to resist batons and cried against injustice on their behalf. Actually, are the police officers not using their bodies of flesh and blood to counter the charging by the occupiers? Can it be said that only the occupiers will be injured in charging at the police officers but the latter will not be injured? While the bleeding of occupiers can be packaged as "paying a price for democracy", is it not worthwhile for the police officers to be praised by the public for being injured in maintaining social order? It is most unfair that they are only condemned by the pan-democrat Members again and again.
3022 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
The Occupy Central is a political issue. After all, political issues ought to be resolved by political means. The Police are merely responsible for maintaining order. During the Occupy Central action, the Police have unfortunately been reduced to a target of attack by the protesters since they are placed in the middle of two contending forces. But fortunately, our Police Force will continue to work uncomplainingly, demonstrate their dedication and maintain social order wholeheartedly. Their professionalism, which has moved us deeply, is worthy of praise and respect by the public. I sincerely hope that some Members in this Council can stop nitpicking by questioning the professional and dedicated Police Force and stop making additional charges and accusations against the police officers who have seen their workload and pressure doubled due to the Occupy Central action, so that they can maintain social order and defend the rule of law in Hong Kong with peace of mind and without any constraint.
President, I so submit.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, it is with a heavy heart that I discuss this subject matter of the degeneration and change in the nature of the Police Force today. It is really saddening to note such a situation because when I was small, I witnessed the corruption of the police force or the disciplined forces in Hong Kong but after the turmoil resulting from the anti-corruption drive, the situation gradually got onto the right track and the Police Force became the pride of Hong Kong. In 1997, when Hong Kong was reunified with the country, Hong Kong people still had confidence in 1997, all because of the rule of law and the professionalism of the disciplined forces in Hong Kong. Little did one expect that the Umbrella Movement would lead to such a complete change in the nature of the Police Force, and it can be said that this represents a thorough change after LEUNG Chun-ying had come to power and the communist-Hong Kong regime took over.
Coming back to the evil deeds of the Police Force in recent weeks, I witnessed some of them. Two or three weeks ago, I also questioned the Secretary for Security about police officers losing control of themselves. I found that at least 10% to 20% of police officers have experienced mental breakdowns or symptoms of mental illness. Of course, in some cases, some individuals experienced a loss of personal mental control but obviously, it is because of the indulgence, instigation or biding of the Security Bureau and most LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3023 probably, it is because of the personal liking, direction and permission of the Commissioner of Police that police officers could be so brutal as to break the rules of the Police Force continually.
Let me spell out the evidence of wrongdoing one by one, so that the Secretary can respond to them one by one: Police officers covered their service numbers, which was a daily occurrence, and this often happened when plain clothes police officers were showing others their warrant cards. They also verbally abused law-biding residents shopping in Mong Kok, followed people taking part in rallies and exchanged verbal abuses with them; beat innocent passers-by arbitrarily, which could be seen on each and every occasion. Sometimes, when police officers were pursuing protestors but could not catch up and some passers-by happened to get in their way, they just beat the passers-by all the same. For example, last Wednesday, I was in the vicinity of the Shanghai Commercial Bank. Had I got out of the way somewhat slower, I would also have been hit. At that time, I was just standing by, not doing anything in particular. A police officer was chasing after someone who wanted to occupy the roads in order to beat him but that person outran him and went into the crowd. Since that police officer could not catch up with him, he just beat people along the way arbitrarily. He did not succeed in beating that person but the blows landed on other passers-by. As a result, many passers-by staying on the pavement were beaten up viciously for no reason. Police officers also arrested reporters arbitrarily, be it those of the local or international mass media, in order to vent their spleen, and reporters were arrested and harmed all the time, thus infringing on the freedom of speech and bringing Hong Kong into disrepute. People were arbitrary arrested, then released unconditionally, and among them, there was a professor of the University of Hong Kong. Body searches were conducted arbitrarily, be it on students, members of the public or various types of people and so long as someone is not to their liking, the situation would revert to the treatment of triad members in the 1960s: If someone's gaze was unfriendly, he would be punched a couple of times and a body search would be conducted on him, then a pack of narcotic drugs would be stuffed into his pocket and he would be taken to the police station for another round of beating. Cars were searched and penalty tickets issued arbitrarily. There was white terror: For example, if someone drove past Mong Kok and opened an umbrella outside his car, he would be arrested. Even at the airport, taking a photo with an opened umbrella would also result in a warning. President, there was only one single person who took a photo before boarding a plane and for this reason, several police officers, staff members of the airport and police officers of the Special Action Squad all 3024 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 pounced on her, all because a girl took a photo. She was warned even for just doing that and the personal particulars on her documents were jotted down, and she was told that she may be prosecuted. The right to cross the road was also denied and recently, shopping has also been affected. The Chief Executive called on the public to patronize small shops and shops in Mong Kok, so now the public had responded to the call of the Chief Executive by patronizing shops there but they were impeded and beaten up by the Police. Women were also insulted, with a plain-clothes police officer claiming that he would arrest somebody, take her to the police station and rape her. An incident of a police officer raping a member of the public in a police station did happen before, Secretary. Such an instance has occurred before, so it can be said that what was said would be done. Instances of beating unarmed members of the public brutally also occur frequently.
I absolutely understand why some police officers are so angry. It is because on many occasions in the past two months, I could see some members of the public who were very experienced and had many tactics provoking police officers. However, President, worst of all, nine out of 10 of these people could not be caught, be it those in Mong Kok or on Lung Wo Road. Some of them might bet on the fact that they had a full set of gear and often, they would stand at the forefront to provoke police officers, using umbrellas to poke them. There were people like these but since police officers required the approval of their superiors before taking each and every action, when their superiors approved of taking certain actions, they could be seen clearly preparing to take actions, so as soon as that group of highly experienced people specializing in provoking police officers saw that the Police were about to launch a so-called counter-offensive or take arrest actions, they were the ones who ran away the fastest. Let me tell you, Secretary, when you failed to catch nine out of 10 of these people but the group of people behind them, that is, that group of innocent and good-natured students, took the brunt instead. It was said that Lung Wo Road or Mong Kok or whatever place had to be steadfastly defended, so each time this kind of actions was launched, they just called on a large group of people to hold on and that group of highly experienced people would run away the fastest. You cannot catch any of them but that group of innocent members of the public and good-natured students, including professors, were beaten up viciously by you instead.
Secretary, I think you are being very unprofessional in doing so. As a professional department and a professional disciplined force, you should arrest LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3025 those people whom you consider to have violated the law or to be at fault. Unfortunately, having witnessed such instances so many times, I found that you could not catch them on nine out of 10 occasions and in the end, it was those innocent members of the public who were victimized. This is just like fighting a war. The other side is waging guerilla warfare and the guerillas are constantly on the move. You could not catch the guerillas but only bombed and killed ordinary members of the public. This is how the Police Force in Hong Kong behave now. They even swaggered around proudly, taking pictures in the park, Secretary. Secretary, do you not feel ashamed of yourself? Do police officers not feel ashamed of themselves? You could not catch those people who provoked you, tricked you or insulted you but you hurt innocent people indiscriminately. This is a crime, Secretary, and in times of war, if one refers this matter to an international court, it is a capital crime. I could see such a situation but I think the Secretary is apparently still kept in the dark. Many police officers thought that they were awesome and took photos in many places. Now, many photos of this kind have been uploaded onto the Internet. They arrested a lot of people on Lung Wo Road, in parks or in Mong Kok and thought that they were awesome, so they took photos but they are not aware of their ugly and unprofessional side.
Let me use the analogy of a football team to describe this situation. President, a professional football team requires discipline and basic constraints. If your football team plays against another team and the other side resorted to improper conduct, so you beat up the people concerned, the other side will be shown a yellow card but you will be shown the red. The present situation is exactly like this, is it not? Two teams are playing against each other but some football fans on the sideline harassed your players, so your players went over to beat those football fans up, thus bringing disgrace and defeat to your team. This is unprofessional conduct. As a professional disciplined force or as a football team, even if the legs of your professional players are attacked with sweeping kicks or their legs are kicked and broken, they would not take revenge. Such matters should be dealt with by the referee. Therefore, the development of the disciplined forces in Hong Kong is such that they have become a rogue Police Force that is even worse than triad gangs. Even triad gangs have discipline but now the Police are just indulging themselves. They are a rogue Police Force, which is most disappointing.
I hope police officers will realize what they are doing. At present, you are only facing some unarmed young men. Of course, many of them were beaten up 3026 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 by you for no good reason and even those who provoked you were just amateurish. President, that group of people came out to foment trouble only when they had time and perhaps after charging for a dozen times, they have gained some experience and know where your weaknesses lie. You could do nothing even in the face of these so-called amateurish troublemakers and instead, you harmed innocent people indiscriminately. If they were really organized, what would you do?
President, it is no difficult task to wage guerilla warfare in Hong Kong. Given the high intelligence of Hong Kong people, if they want to make weapons, they do not have to convert air-guns, nor do they have to make shields. Nowadays, scientific knowledge is very advanced and it does not cost a lot to buy guns either, Secretary. Be it shipping them from the Mainland or from Southeast Asia, it is very easy to buy them. Weapons can be shipped to Hong Kong easily and grenades can also be bought, not to mention guns.
Coupled with the very advanced scientific knowledge, it is also very easy to make bombs with chemicals. In addition, it is really not difficult to make chemical weapons, anthrax bacteria or other colourless and odourless toxins if one wants to. If this Government wants to use force to suppress this force of resistance, it is really a delusion. On this movement, you … at present, the major political parties and groups, including the Hong Kong Federation of Students and Scholarism, still insist on peace and non-violence. If you want to distort or change their position and turn them into truly violent terrorist organizations, Hong Kong will never have a day of peace. A dozen people can already make your life very difficult and give you no peace. How difficult is it to make chemical weapons? This is a very easy thing to do. This can be done easily by looking up information on the Internet and it is not necessary to spend a great deal of money. Therefore, first, do not distort this group of students and this resistance movement by describing them as a violent movement. All of them are amateurish troublemakers.
In the 1970s, some 10 or 20 people in Italy formed the Red Brigades, kidnapping the Prime Minister, murdering judges and police officers. Just several dozen people could make the whole Italian Government very miserable and the ability of Hong Kong people is by no means inferior to that group of people in the Red Brigades in Italy. Therefore, you must not think too highly of yourselves, thinking that by using batons to deal with protestors brutally, you can swagger proudly. If you force this movement to go underground and make the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3027 public feel that peaceful struggles are hopeless and turn to terrorism, let me tell you this is a disaster that the Hong Kong Government is incapable of coping.
At present, many police officers and members of the disciplined forces look as though they thought they were very awesome. On the Internet, many young people are holding TSUI Po-ko up as their idol. President, back then, TSUI Po-ko was a police officer but he was also a murderer of police officers. He grew up in Shek Wai Kok in Tsuen Wan and was on the prowl in Shek Wai Kok. On the Internet, he is held up as an idol or hero. Therefore, the thinking nowadays is changing gradually and this is very dangerous. However, the Government is now promoting such a change in thinking and driving some young people or people with radical thoughts to terrorism. The situation is changing and such a shift is very dangerous. We will not advocate such a shift either but you are precisely acting as the perpetrator. Therefore, you can look at history, at the Black Panther Party, "Malcolm X" or the terrorist organizations in Europe, including such groups as the Red Brigades, not to mention Islamic terrorist organizations.
Therefore, you are playing with bombs, so I wonder if the Secretary understands what he is doing. I wonder if LEUNG Chun-ying knows what he is doing. I do not know if this group of people behind the communist-Hong Kong regime understand what they are playing with. They are playing with fire and in the end, they themselves will get burnt.
In addition, lastly, I also wish to talk briefly about the issue of injunction orders. President, I stayed in Mong Kok for a long period of time. The clearance operation in Mong Kok was divided into two phases. The first took place in Argyle Street and the second, on Nathan Road. The clearance operation on Argyle Street was conducted in a very professional manner and the decisions of the High Court and Court of Appeal were duly complied with. However, regarding the clearance operation on Nathan Road, the Police, the bailiffs and the lawyer concerned all acted against the directions of the injunction order and the directions of the High Court and the Court of Appeal. President, if you look at these two clearance operations, one in Argyle Street and the other on Nathan Road, they were two entirely different modes of clearance operation. Can you tell me how possibly could both operations have complied with the directions of the Court? Therefore, the clearance operation on Nathan Road in Mong Kok absolutely and totally violated the directions of the High Court and the Court of Appeal. (The buzzer sounded) 3028 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, the Umbrella Movement has lasted for two months or so. At the moment, the lengthier the confrontation between the protesters and the LEUNG Chun-ying Administration, the more radical the way the Police tackle the Umbrella Movement. The firing of 87 canisters of tear gas on 28 September has drawn the attention of international commentators, and the Police …
(Mr Albert CHAN stood up)
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, would you do a headcount so as to let the Secretary come back to listen to Mr Gary FAN's speech.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Gary FAN, please hold on. Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Gary FAN, please continue.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, since the Police were determined to clear the occupied site in Mong Kok on the pretext of executing the injunction order on 25 November, they have successively used disproportionate force to disperse the protesters, such as using pepper spray on the retreating protesters, arbitrarily beating passers-by in Mong Kok with their batons and even acting against the international conventions by wantonly attacking and arresting journalists and medical personnel who were working on the site. Countless innocent people were injured by the Police who acted in defiance of the police regulations on the use of force. President, the objective outcome of this approach was that not only did they fail to put the situation under control, Mong Kok and Admiralty were even plunged into chaos. I would describe the situation as "a cunning person suggesting an idea while a stupid person acting on it". The cunning person is LEUNG Chun-ying; the stupid ones are Andy TSANG and Secretary LAI Tung-kwok who is in the Chamber now. As a result, the Police were out of control as they arbitrarily assaulted and arrested the people. The chief culprit is LEUNG Chun-ying. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3029
President, after the Court had issued an injunction order for the occupied areas in Argyle Street and Nathan Road, the Police had all along claimed that they would only assist in the execution of the injunction order and would not take actions to clear the site. But that was a lie. After the Police's intervention and actions taken to clear the site last week, they continued to extend the scope of the clear-out actions to streets not covered by the injunction order and they were even bent on dispersing pedestrians on the pavements. The situation was like a curfew having been imposed in the entire Mong Kok. Not only the protesters were beaten up by the Police, but even the ordinary pedestrians passing by were violently dispersed by the Police with their batons. As a result, shops which had been able to conduct their business as usual over the past two months of occupation nevertheless had to close.
President, over the past week, every Hong Kong citizen in the occupied areas has personally felt that some front-line police officers were out of control. Not only did they provoke the protesters verbally, they even beat up whoever they saw, and when using their batons, they purposely attacked such fragile body parts as the head, the neck and the back, as well as the waist of protesters and as a result, a large number of protesters were seen bleeding after being badly battered. President, according to the Police's tactics training manual which was leaked in 2011, police officers have a number of skills in using the baton. It said that there are five tactical points on the arms and legs and striking at these points may cause temporary motor dysfunction without causing injuries to the person being attacked. The manual also pointed out that when striking at a person's joints and bones with a baton, the wrong use of the baton may cause fatal injuries.
However, the protesters were repeatedly beaten and injured by the Police during the clear-out operations recently. The Police cannot invariably defend their actions on the pretext that the situation was in chaos, finding excuses for some law-breaking front-line policemen in a bid to spare them the punishment of law. What is even more condemnable is that some substandard policemen ― who are referred to as "licensed scoundrels" by Hong Kong people ― have from time to time insulted the protesters in their words and deeds; they raised their middle fingers to provoke the protesters; they hurled abuses at the protesters targeting at their religious belief and even the family members of Dr Fernando CHEUNG of this Council; they even hurled insults at the protesters with an attitude smacking of racial discrimination, telling them to go back to India; and worse still, they threatened female protesters, claiming that they would "take you back to the police station and rape you" if the protesters did not shut up. What 3030 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 kinds of acts are these? Can they be considered heroic at all? President, those are all acts of cowards! Police officers engaging in these cowardice acts have not only insulted the protesters ― I can see Mr Jeffrey LAM smiling happily; he may very much support what these policemen have done ― I think these policemen have not only insulted the Umbrella Movement and the protesters, they have even insulted their capacity as a professional disciplined force, but the senior echelons of the Police Force and even the Secretary for Security …
(Mr Jeffrey LAM raised his hand in indication)
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): Point of order.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Gary FAN, please hold on. Mr Jeffrey LAM, what is your point in raising your hand?
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): Members cannot impute motives to other Members. He has not only talked nonsense; him imputing motives is a breach of the Rules of Procedure …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM, I do not consider Mr FAN's remarks just now a breach of the Rules of Procedure. Later when it is your turn to speak you can respond to the viewpoints presented by Mr FAN which you do not agree with.
Mr Gary FAN, please continue with your speech.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): Alright, thank you, President. I was only stating a fact just now. When I mentioned that a policeman had told a female protester that he would take her back to the police station and rape her if she did not shut up, I did see Mr Jeffrey LAM instantly turning his face away and smiling very happily. I was stating a fact.
President, the senior echelons of the Police Force and even the Secretary for Security have repeatedly attempted to shield the unlawful acts of front-line LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3031 policemen. Superintendent CHU King-wai who was suspected to have used his baton to strike a passer-by on the back of his neck could proceed to his pre-retirement leave early without having to bear the responsibility for his assault on another person. When social workers collectively made a report to the police station in Wan Chai, the Police nevertheless handled their reports as complaints. All these instances of shielding and condoning the policemen have made people feel that the powers of the Police seem to be unrestrained.
President, the various excuses conjured up by the senior echelons of the Police to shield the unlawful acts are unimaginably weird indeed. For example, when policemen bumped into a reporter's tool for making a living and that is, a video camera, that the reporter was holding during the commotion, the policemen outrageously all dashed to the reporter, shoving the reporter who was working then to the ground and alleging that the reporter had attempted to snatch a police gun but the police officer who alleged the reporter for attempting to snatch his gun was not armed at the time. Subsequently, the Police even arrested this media worker for assaulting the Police. The Police also alleged that a member of the news crew of now TV had attacked police officers with an aluminium ladder; then they alleged that a reporter of the Apple Daily had repeatedly bumped the head of a policeman with a video camera. However, the footages subsequently made public by a number of media corporations showed clearly that those allegations were purely fabrications. Those allegations made by the Police are simply unscrupulous distortions aiming to wrong the media workers.
President, since Andy TSANG took office, the Police have suppressed more and more strongly reporters' freedom to cover news at the scene of protests and the force used by the Police on the protesters has also become increasingly unrestrained, casing suspicions among Hong Kong people about the Government making use of the Police to deliberately carry out political suppression and create "white terror". President, the Police have not only sought to wrong the reporters, but on the Sunday just passed there was even an incident of the Police identifying and arresting the wrong person in Admiralty. When an Associate Professor of the University of Hong Kong went to Lung Wo Road to help his colleague look for his son who was attending the rally, he was alleged and arrested by the Police for instructing the protesters to charge the police cordon. Although he held his hands high and shouted that he would not put up any resistance, he was still pinned to the ground by the policemen. He suffered injuries in his forehead and his pair of glasses was broken. What is more 3032 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 ridiculous was that the Police accused him of leading the protesters' attack at 9.50 pm but this Associate Professor had not yet arrived at Admiralty at that time. After being innocently detained by the Police for 38 hours, he was released unconditionally. What kind of enforcement measure is that?
Today, there are reports that 40 protesters who had been arrested were brought to the car park at the North Point Police Station. President, the Observatory has issued the cold weather warning today. The temperature also dropped at night for the last two days but the Police switched on the fan and made it blow hard on the protesters direct. When the protesters requested the Police to switch the fan off, the Police told them that there was no switch to turn it off. The protesters, therefore, requested blankets for them to keep warm, but the Police said that they could only provide them with garbage bags to cover their bodies. What kind of measure is that? These acts of some front-line police officers are actually no different from imposing extrajudicial punishment on the protesters. They were hostile to the protesters, and they perverted the course of justice in the name of law enforcers. It is not the case that the Police are completely unrestrained in exercising public powers on behalf of the executive authorities, whereas the front-line media workers, being the Fourth Estate, can record all the facts that happened with their video cameras, thereby protecting the public's right to know and monitoring the Police in exercising their powers.
President, during the Umbrella Movement, the unlawful and infuriating acts done by some front-line policemen could be brought into the limelight all because the media workers had been fearless of the risks of getting hurt and bravely videotaping what happened in the front line. Members of the royalist camp in the Legislative Council nevertheless acted in the reverse way by putting down their signatures to request media workers not to hinder the enforcement actions of the Police. This has precisely shown that their thinking runs counter to the core values and the freedom of the press greatly cherished by Hong Kong people.
President, since the start of the Umbrella Movement, the senior echelons of the Police have repeatedly made specious arguments and gone back on their words. While they claimed that the umbrellas and plastic cling wrap used by the protesters were weapons, they said that water cannons used by the Police were only meant to spray water on the protesters. President, they sprayed water to wet the bodies of protesters when the temperature was 10-odd degrees Celsius. What kind of measure is that? They said categorically that they would act in an open and aboveboard manner but the fact is they would take you to a dark corner LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3033 for a good beating; before executing the injunction they vowed vehemently in front of the camera that they would not clear the site but it turned out that they had taken the opportunity to clear the occupied zones. Then they said that the Police's power of law enforcement is not limited to the areas covered by the injunction. They contradicted what they had said previously, and they said one thing but did quite another. The Commissioner of Police, Andy TSANG, has been hiding up like a tortoise, just as LEUNG Chun-ying has done as he has been unwilling to give an account to the public on the approaches adopted by the Police in handling the Umbrella Movement. All he has done is to work together with the SAR Government in using front-line police officers as a shield and hiding behind them to evade his accountability to the public. This is irresponsible and an act of cowardice.
President, since the Independent Commission Against Corruption was set up, the Hong Kong Police Force have incredibly built up a good reputation and prestige by enforcing the law in a fair, just and impartial manner over the past decades. However, the LEUNG Chun-ying Administration has over and over again used the Police to stir up division in society. The royalist camp has also joined force with LEUNG Chun-ying to do injustice to the Police. This is not only unhelpful to resolving the political predicament encircling Hong Kong now, but even the credibility of the Police in enforcing the law has been ruined overnight. Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying must courageously respond to the aspiration for genuine universal suffrage of the protesters in this Umbrella Movement, rather than hiding behind the shields and batons of the Police and condoning the evil acts of some policemen in order to shift the attention of the media and the public, expanding the powers of the Police infinitely and pushing the Police towards the centre of the storm in an attempt to blur the goals that this Umbrella Movement is striving for.
Therefore, President, here, I must condemn the Police, and I must condemn Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying. LEUNG Chun-ying is but shameless. President, I so submit.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): President, Mr Gary FAN's speech just now has really struck me as impressive, and his alarmist talk has given me goosebumps. No wonder so many people have been saying that they want to emigrate. What he said is not supported by facts, and he simply believed what other people said. For me, I did not hear of it, and I heard of it only today. It is 3034 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 reported that some policemen had arrested some females and brought them back to the police station where they would do some unruly things to them, and I do not wish to spell out what those acts are. This is said in a way as if it really happened. President, I wonder if you have heard of it. There would really be troubles if everyone believes what he said. I think these are untrue reports meant to mislead the public. They are sheer nonsense, unscrupulous distortions of facts. If anyone wishes to cite a good example, I would suggest all Hong Kong people to listen to Mr Gary FAN's speech just now and they can fully understand the point that I am trying to make.
President, the Occupy action has persisted for more than two months. It has dealt a severe blow to the rule of law in Hong Kong, while such industries as tourism, retail, catering, and transport have suffered huge losses and people's living has been greatly affected. In fact, from the opinion polls conducted by a number of organizations recently, we can note that most people agree that the Occupy action should end as soon as possible. If society continues to be caught in confrontations with people hurling accusations at one another, society would only continue to go to the extremes, which would not be conducive to resolving the current political issue.
Last Tuesday, the Police assisted the court bailiffs in executing the injunction and successfully removed the barricades along Nathan Road in Mong Kok, enabling this major road link to be fully reopened for traffic. However, some people with ulterior motives used this as an excuse to stir up troubles in Mong Kok and Admiralty, giving rise to a series of incidents of violent charging. All these are facts that we have all seen clearly on the television or in newspapers.
The Hong Kong Federation of Students (HKFS) and Scholarism announced that their actions would be escalated and even called on their supporters to attend an assembly at Admiralty on the night of 30 November. That night, the HKFS and Scholarism announced actions to besiege the Central Government Offices (CGO). A large number of protesters again rushed into Lung Wo Road and charged the police cordon, followed by violent physical confrontations which made it necessary for the Police to use pepper spray and batons to disperse the protesters, resulting in large numbers of injuries on both sides. The Police eventually drove the protesters back to the previously occupied areas but the operation of the CGO on Monday was thus affected and all meetings of the Legislative Council had to be cancelled on Monday.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3035
The Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong (BPA) considers that over the past weeks, the Police have performed their duties in a professional and restrained manner. I take exception to the comments made by some people that the Police have abused their powers and run out of control. In fact, an injunction was already issued by the Court in respect of the Occupy action in Nathan Road, Mong Kok, and it was also broadcast extensively in the media. The protesters should have had enough time to respond and leave the area, and it is impossible that they knew nothing about the clearance. The injunction also pointed out clearly that the bailiffs could seek assistance from the Police and the Police also gave prior notice of their impending actions. More importantly, the protesters' occupation of roads is unlawful and in breach of the laws of Hong Kong. The Police, being an enforcement agency tasked to maintain law and order in society, absolutely have the power to take and should take appropriate clearance actions.
On the other hand, in the action to besiege the CGO and occupy Lung Wo Road on the night of 30 November, the organizers told the participants beforehand to bring with them protective gear such as helmets, goggles, shields, and so on. On the surface it seems that those shields are made of carton but in fact, what is wrapped under the cardboard may be wooden planks and in some cases, it may be iron plates with many nails embedded in the middle. It showed that the entire action was a deliberate, planned attempt to charge the police cordon lines and rock our society, which was very different from the situation in the last two months. Faced with these developments, it is necessary for the Police to take resolute actions to ensure the operation of government departments and no further occupation of main trunk roads, thereby putting across a clear message that the Police absolutely do not tolerate acts of charging and further road blockage.
In fact, the Police had fully assessed the risks of the assemblies in Mong Kok and Admiralty prior to the clearance actions and repeatedly made an open appeal through various channels to the public, asking them to leave. Besides, before providing their assistance in the execution of the injunction and the lawful clearance of the occupied areas, the Police had time and again repeated this appeal, calling on the public to stay away from the protest areas unless it was necessary to go there. From the media reports we could see that during the clearance operations, the Police had adopted the usual practice of giving prior warnings to protesters charging the police cordon and those who were unwilling 3036 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 to leave, and the Police took further actions to disperse the protesters only when such warnings were not heeded. From this we can see that the criticisms levelled at the police actions on various grounds are indeed unfounded.
President, I also wish to point out that the protesters subsequently instigated "guerrilla occupation" in Mong Kok and extended the battlefield to both main streets and small lanes. They yelled on the streets of Mong Kok late at night and rushed onto the roads, and they even tried to stop the shops from closing their gates, and so on, causing serious nuisance to the residents and shops in the district. This has further proved the need for the Police to strengthen their manpower and deployment and take resolute actions to stop those people intent on damaging social order again.
President, front-line policemen have already been subject to enormous pressure, while some of them even have to face incessant insults and provocations from violent trouble-makers. Over the past week or so, countless policemen have been injured and this has posed great challenges to the Police Force in discharging their duties. Regarding cases of individual policemen committing acts that are incommensurate with their roles which have aroused discontent from some members of the community, as the BPA has pointed out repeatedly, members of the public can file complaints through the existing channels accordingly and we should not draw conclusions rashly before a detailed investigation is conducted and the results of investigation published. Otherwise, this would not be of any help to easing the tension in society now.
President, I think the best way to help the Police perform their duty and maintain social order is for people from all sides to exercise restraint and remain patient while showing respect to the Police in discharging their duties. Therefore, we support the Police in taking strict law-enforcement actions and pursue the responsibility of those organizations, organizers and instigators involved in these violent and unlawful acts. We also hope that the Police will bring these people to justice as soon as possible.
President, although the Occupy Central Trio announced yesterday that they would turn themselves in to the Police today, I think as the Occupy action has developed to a state where injuries have been resulted, it is actually too late for them to take this step of turning themselves in to the Police, and I would say that this would achieve only little effect. I think Members will still recall that the initiators of Occupy Central had vowed at the outset that the movement would be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3037 carried out with love and peace. But starting from the end of September, we have seen the leading protesters charging the police cordon lines time and again, and the so-called "love and peace" has long changed in nature.
However, the Occupy Central initiators have not only failed to pluck up courage to draw a line between themselves and those radicals and destroyers, but they have even deceived themselves by denying that the occupiers have become out of control and changed in nature. Frankly speaking, I am greatly disappointed with their handling approach. They have not condemned the protesters who violently charged the Police, and all they have said is that the Police had used excessive force verging on violence. I wonder if they actually have not watched the news reports or they have simply closed their eyes and neglected everything.
Apart from appealing to the occupiers who are still staying in Causeway Bay and Admiralty to leave as soon as possible in order for social order to resume, I also hope that other Occupy Central organizers will assume their social responsibility by leading other protesters to immediately withdraw from the occupied areas. I trust that only through discussions in a lawful, pragmatic and rational manner and with an attitude of mutual respect can we find a way out for the constitutional reform and universal suffrage of Hong Kong. If we know only to hurl abuses at one another and refuse to review our own acts or actions, that is not the attitude that should be seen in a harmonious society.
Will a policeman who is standing take out his baton to beat a person for no reason at all? I do not think so. I believe Hong Kong people will also think that such a disciplined Police Force of Hong Kong will not do such a thing. They must have been subject to some attacks or impolite treatment. Therefore, I hope that we can all take a peaceful attitude and be tolerant. I hope that social order can be resumed as soon as possible, so that our economy can keep moving forward and everyone can live in peace and work with contentment.
President, I so submit.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, today is the 67th day of the Umbrella Movement. We all know that the Trio and the former Cardinal Joseph ZEN will turn themselves in to the Police today.
3038 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Some people say that the Umbrella Revolution, having come to this state today, is really painful and lamentable. I cannot agree more. The objective of the Umbrella Revolution, which has prompted tens of thousand people to participate in it, is to strive for genuine universal suffrage, urging the authorities to respond to the 31 August Decision, the "shut-the-door" decision of the National People's Congress (NPC). Despite the tens of thousands of people sleeping on the street for more than two months, the Government turned a blind eye to them. I think no other government will ever do that. However, our Government and the Chief Executive ― the mean and shameless Chief Executive can hide in the Chief Executive's Office and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the protests as if he has nothing to do with it. He simply shirks the responsibilities to others, particularly the police officers who should not be held responsible for the incident.
We have all along been saying that a political issue should be resolved by political means. On this political issue, that is, one concerning the universal suffrage, this coward and incapable Government has put the Police in a difficult position. Do the authorities think that we will get excited as we see police officers being beaten? No. We used to be proud of the Police, a corruption-free, disciplined and efficient disciplined service. But today, police officers are regarded as "black cops". Why has this happened?
Members should have noticed that. The Government does not even have the guts to take clearance actions in an upright manner. It resorts to seeking the assistance of the pro-establishment camp, members of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, in applying for injunctions on various pretexts, so that it can carry out clearance after the execution of the order. Had the Government been in the right and justified, and had all the things it did been done with a popular mandate, it would not have to act furtively, lacking the courage to come forward on its own to carry out the clearance. What a Government is this? What a Chief Executive is he?
Today, what is the approach adopted by the Police? In fact, we can witness this in the operations in Mong Kok and Admiralty. First, before the clearance was carried out, some members from the blue-ribbon camp, or even some triad elements, would take actions first. In fact, I was at the scene in one or two events. I saw that some people with tattoos would act first, and then plain-clothes police officers and other police officers would take over. Their co-operation was seamless. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3039
Second, we notice that police officers did not enforce the law on some members from the blue-ribbon camp who had been involved in beating up other people. We can see from television footage that police officers escorted them to the taxi and greeted them. If the Police Force degenerated into a tool for mere stability maintenance, just like the public security officers or city management officials in the Mainland, President, it would be a disgrace to Hong Kong people. We have spent decades of hard effort to establish the image of the Police Force, yet they turn out to act like the public security officers and the stability maintenance force in the Mainland, beating our own people and young people.
Some people said that those wearing helmets were offensive, and that is why police officers had to beat them with batons again and again. Yet, had they not worn the helmets, they would have died. A few days ago, in the clearance of Lung Wo Road, I saw a young participant of the assembly beaten into coma. Fortunately, it was later reported that no one on the scene suffered fatal injuries. It is all out of luck. Had they not protected themselves, they might have died. Some people said ridiculously that the goggles and cling wrap, and even umbrellas, used by protesters were offensive weapons. It is terribly ridiculous. How can people make such distorting comments?
When a responsible Government sees a society being torn apart, with tens of thousands of people taking to the streets ― We all know that according to the opinion poll conducted by the University of Hong Kong and certain media organizations, 19% of the people had taken part, in various degrees, in the Umbrella Movement, which means around 1 million or close to 1.4 million people have been involved. This is an enormous number. As far as the incumbent Government, the Central Authorities and the constitutional reform are concerned, the younger generation has seen unfairness and the "shut-the-door" proposal contradictory to the wish of Hong Kong people. When they could not tolerate the situation anymore, they came forward to express their views. But they were greeted with pepper spray, police batons, arrests and violence. The authorities should not be overwhelmed by jubilation for being able to carry out the clearance, for if the authorities disperse the mass by violence, they will definitely return. If the authorities are not maintaining order in a justified manner but resorting to police baton, this order will not last long.
Members have seen the collapse of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and other totalitarian Eastern European countries, and they know that the days of the community party are numbered. Certainly, we are now aware of the 3040 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 tremendous power of the Communist Party of China as well as that of their representatives in Hong Kong. They are spending a colossal amount of money to maintain stability and they have an abundance of manpower and resource at their disposal. Today, even the Police have been reduced to a tool. Fortunately, some members in the Police are holding different views, and the picture I am holding is one of the examples.
A report today pointed out that a young police inspector used to be a senior inspector. But since he expressed his opinion on the incident involving LAM Wai-sze scolding police officers to his subordinates that he considered LAM Wai-sze's rebuke justified, his subordinates were dissatisfied with him and lodged a complaint against him to the Complaints Against Police Office. It is learnt that the police officer had been demoted from a senior inspector to an inspector. Today, there is a message on the Internet claiming that this police officer will soon be put behind bars, or in jail, after his demotion on the last occasion. His colleagues even mocked him with remarks like "let's sing, let's celebrate, let's clap and cheers". The Police Public Relations Branch has confirmed that the officer in question is now in suspension and an investigation is still ongoing.
A police officer willing to tell the truth according to his conscience has come to this pass. What have the Police become nowadays? This is a blind tool. Some friends told me that some officers in the Police, particularly the young officers, support democracy and they definitely did not want to beat the people in the assembly with batons. However, the culture of white terror now prevails in the Police. When police officers are instructed by their supervisors who have a political mission to disperse members of the public who support democracy, they may be subject to punishment in future have they been merciful in executing the order. We can see that this is the case now and it has been proved to be true. Why has Hong Kong come to this pass?
Now, people telling the truth according to their conscience will be treated unfairly, yet those following the order blindly to beat Hong Kong people with police batons will receive commendation. Two days ago, we saw a very ridiculous scene of the supporters of the Police expressing support for the Police actions of beating the public. President, those protesters are not thieves. If they have committed crimes and police officers beat them with batons, we may understand that there are some reasons for the police officers to do so ― in fact, such a practice is unacceptable even to criminals; besides, those people should LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3041 not be regarded as criminals before they are convicted before the Court. Yet what is the situation now? Police officers are beating them with batons, and police officers may continue to beat and kick those people who have already fallen onto the ground.
I know that the Police are a disciplined service requiring absolute obedience in taking orders. Therefore, without the instructions, hints or even provocation of their supervisors, police officers will not act in this way. Under the leadership of the incumbent Director of Bureau and Commissioner Andy TSANG, the reputation of the Hong Kong Police Force has been tarnished. The public will give a sigh of helplessness in view of the situation. The Police Force used to be a team we are proud of, but now they have become so unpopular that people want to caught and beat them like beating a mouse running across the street. Why?
Police officers are indeed innocent. They should not be bearing all this. Who is taking shelter behind them? They are the NPC, LEUNG Chun-ying and a batch of irresponsible senior officials, which obviously include the Secretary for Justice and Carrie LAM. These senior officials should be held responsible for the constitutional reform, yet they have now chosen to hide away. They try to shift the blame to people striving for universal suffrage and shirk the responsibilities to police officers, tarnishing the reputation of the Police. Hong Kong people definitely find this heart-rending as they see police officers, whom they expected to be responsible for maintaining law and order in Hong Kong, doing the beating, for the police officers are beating the future of Hong Kong. Nonetheless, the Government remains indifferent. To date, the movement has lasted for 67 days, yet LEUNG Chun-ying continues to hide like a tortoise. Today, this Government is completely incapable and it has caused great disappointment to the public. As for the Police, they are beating and provoking Hong Kong people with their batons.
There is a report today about an ex-auxiliary police constable trying to protect reporters at the scene from being beaten by the Police was beaten by his ex-colleagues and suffered bruises all over his face. What kind of police officers are they? In the commotion two days ago, some medical officers came to the front line to provide support for injured persons and to dress their wounds. They had put on fluorescence vests with the Medical Team label, yet these personnel had also suffered. Police officers had shown no mercy to them and some of the medical personnel had been hurt.
3042 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
My friend, AU Yiu-kai, is one of the persons in charge of the Occupy Central medical team. At that time, had not somebody protected him, he would have been arrested or beaten. He is a person whom Hong Kong people will be proud of. He has risked his life in working as a medical volunteer of the Medecins Sans Frontiers and the Hong Kong Red Cross, and gone to Sarajevo and other places under heavy fire to provide assistance, yet he has never been treated like that. Even in places at war, he has not been attacked by the troops. But in Hong Kong, when he tried to protect unarmed protesters, he was shouted at and intimidated by police officers. Some police officers even wanted to beat him, and a number of his colleagues had been beaten by police officers with batons repeatedly.
In Admiralty, three off-duty police officers ― a number of colleagues have mentioned the case earlier ― provoked the protesters with indecent gestures and offensive remarks. Before those police officers were beaten, a member of the medical team tried to protect them and appealed to people on the scene not to beat them. However, when other police officers arrived, the police officers beat and kicked the medical team member. What a society is this?
The Secretary for Security should feel ashamed. Andy TSANG is not in the Chamber today, but he should feel ashamed too, for they should be held responsible for ruining the reputation of the Police.
Police officers are responsible for eliminating the villains and protecting the good. They are not supposed to attack the unarmed public and beat up people striving for democracy. Hong Kong will continue with its fall, but this is not brought forth by the people striving for universal suffrage. The fall of Hong Kong should be traced to the existence of this Government which caused the public to feel disgraced and complete disappointment, LEUNG Chun-ying and the senior echelons of the Police. They are responsible for the shame brought to the Police. I will not feel happy about this in any way. No matter how the Umbrella Movement will develop, Hong Kong people and we in this generation are to bear the loss, yet the current-term Government and LEUNG Chun-ying are the culprits.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3043
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): Please do a headcount.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Albert HO, please speak.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, the Umbrella Movement enters its 67th day today. The Occupy Central Trio have turned themselves in at the police station, and called on the masses to retreat from the square. But we also see that many of those staying at the Admiralty site have indicated no intention of retreat.
President, on this very day, we are facing such a dire situation. This Umbrella Movement has drawn intense international attention. And as everyone may know, the reason for its outbreak is the withdrawal of the timetable for implementing universal suffrage in 2017 and 2020 by our Government jointly with the Central Government by virtue of the 31 August Decision of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, constituting a breach of trust and betrayal to Hong Kong people. The younger generation thinks that if we continue to degenerate this way, the chance of a bright future is slim. Hence, for the ideal of democracy, they came forward to fight in the form of civil disobedience. The Hong Kong Government also faces a crisis in governance which is almost unprecedented. But so far, it has failed to resolve this crisis with a sincere heart and willpower in a fully dedicated manner.
In fact, the Government has lost its credibility in governance, and even its confidence. The Police should have been able to remain neutral and take enforcement actions according to the law and in a professional manner. Now, it seems that they have lost this kind of ability, rendering them reliant on some members of the public who apply to the Court for an injunction by means of civil law and proceedings to protect their own interests. This is downright absurd. In fact, the Government's cowardice and irresponsibility is evidenced by its 3044 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 recourse to a court injunction to deal with a major public incident. It is unbelievable that the Police had to enforce the law on the grounds of assisting court bailiffs in site clearance, unable to clearly invoke the powers conferred by the legislation passed by the Legislative Council previously, including the Public Order Ordinance, the Crimes Ordinance and others to enforce the law impartially. This has really made us wonder in frustration why the Police have degenerated to such a lamentable state.
Nevertheless, President, this is actually not the first time that the community has to rely on civil proceedings to protect their own interests. We may cast our mind back to the '80s during which Mrs THATCHER, faced with the miners' demonstrations one after another, was at her wits' end. At a later stage, the coal corporation together with the power company applied to the Court for an injunction and requested police assistance in executing the relevant order. However, as we may know from the clear historical record, subsequently, the United Kingdom Government repeatedly indicated through its Home Secretary at the Parliament that the Police were actually unable to enforce the law in this manner at that time. On a certain occasion, the power company even applied for a court order in the morning to detain a union leader alleged to be in contempt of court, and bring him to the Court to have him jailed by a judge. But in the afternoon, the then Home Secretary of the Government headed by Mrs THATCHER sought a revocation of the court injunction because such an action would spark off a general strike across the country, which might in turn render the situation even worse off. At that time, the United Kingdom Government mainly used negotiation ― other stratagems were also adopted, including legal means ― to resolve the miners' strike which had pushed the United Kingdom to the verge of paralysis at that time. Hence, how can our Government refuse to discharge its own obligation?
As the matter now stands, the Government should take the lead in resolving political issues. How can it possibly rely on the Police to resolve the mammoth political issues faced by the Occupy movement today by giving indirect law-enforcement assistance to court bailiffs? As a matter of fact, President, to many occupiers, regardless of the means adopted by the Government such as a clearance operation initiated by the Police or assisting in the bailiffs' execution of the injunction, they all know that this Occupy action will end sooner or later, which is indeed an expected result. I believe that if the Police take the initiative to enforce the law at their discretion, as we can see, most of the masses in Causeway Bay, Admiralty or even Mong Kok will succumb to the clearance in a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3045 peaceful, rational and non-violent way. Many occupiers in Admiralty have turned themselves in today. And those who have not turned themselves in (including a number of colleagues and me) are prepared to stay at the scene during the clearance to call on everyone to abide by the principle of peace, rationality and non-violence, and at the same time, to accept apprehension and detention, face prosecution and prepare for imprisonment. This is the spirit that should be firmly upheld throughout the movement.
Nevertheless, President, the "lax attitude" adopted by the Government in the incident may indicate a plot behind the scene, attempting to drag the situation on in order to arouse extreme discontent among the masses in the occupied areas. A couple of weeks ago, individual radicals stormed the Legislative Council and smashed the glass door of its Complex. These actions are absolutely unacceptable to us, and they are also condemned by a number of pan-democrats. But regrettably, a few days ago, student bodies failed to keep their composure, calling for an escalation of actions by besieging the Central Government Offices, and clashes ensued. In our meeting with the student leaders, even if we expressed our view that we had reservations about the escalation of actions, they insisted that they would besiege the building in a peaceful way. However, as we all know, things may not go as we wish. The situation at the scene will often be thrown into an uncontrollable state.
The Mong Kok site has been cleared, but even so, how are things going? Now, an occupy action in the form of "window-shopping" has become a recurrent threat. The previous Occupy action only affected some of the stores on Argyle Street and Nathan Road. But now, the Yau Tsim Mong district may have come under the impact of the prevailing threat. Hence, President, in respect of this issue, can we simply bury our head in the sand, turn a blind eye to it and stay away from it, thinking that the problem can be resolved by a clearance operation? President, the dragging on of the situation mentioned by me earlier on has forced members of the public and the Police to come to a standoff, which has even resulted in clashes on many occasions. I admit that some protesters and occupiers would actually react emotionally to the Police. Some of them will challenge or even provoke the Police. We absolutely disapprove of such behaviour. Nevertheless, it is evident to all that most of the people staying behind and the majority of protesters abide by the spirit of peace and love.
On the other hand, it is sad that the Police have unwillingly become a tool for suppressing this political movement, being required to deal with masses of 3046 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 protesters who are highly politicized with ideals. They have never received relevant training, nor are they well prepared. Consequently, under prolonged political pressure and mental stress, they have apparently lost control of their emotions. Obviously, the Police have exercised restraint in some measure. I believe the reason is that they have been instructed not to use any improper lethal weapons such as rubber bullets or more powerful weapons in order to avoid serious bloodshed. However, as I said, the Police have been under prolonged high pressure at the scene, and it is common for them to have exchanges of vulgar words with the masses. Sometimes, they would challenge the crowds, which might even lead to physical contact or a standoff between both sides. In the process of confrontation, they applied unnecessary force.
There is no need for me to go into details because many of such cases have been captured by camera. Among them there is even a veteran superintendent who is about to retire. To our dismay, he used his baton to fiercely attack a person who, with his back facing him, was prepared to leave the scene in the opposite direction. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. I know that this superintendent is about to retire. In case he is subject to sanctions, I will feel the same as his families do, which means I will feel sorry for him. Nevertheless, why did he act like that? If such an experienced, well-mannered and senior superintendent has also lost control, we can imagine how junior police officers will behave. Besides, a television station camera captured by chance an apprehended and subdued protester with hands tied with a strip being beaten in a dark corner by seven police officers together. All of these are undeniable facts with solid evidence, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. Regrettably, however, they have caused the Police which have all along been portrayed as a highly professional and well trained team into disrepute.
Secretary, you must look into the whole incident for the Police Force. First of all, our colleagues have repeatedly pointed out that the incident is laden with political decisions. Hence, LEUNG Chun-ying, the one above you, or other persons who are in a position to manipulate the incident must be held politically responsible. And as a Secretary, you must also be held politically responsible. What you should review is whether it is fair to require the Police to carry out this kind of task. Also, you have to find out whether they have been given proper psychological counselling and instructions, whether they have sufficient time for rest and whether the Police have arranged for reasonable deployment. All these are important issues. To give the matter its fair deal, in this movement, the Police have actually fallen victim to political blunders and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3047 mishandling of the incident. The victims certainly include the students and a large number of peaceful protesters. But even if the police officers have made mistakes, in fact, they are also victims.
Earlier on, President, Mr WONG Kwok-hing kept criticizing me, asking me to give a response. But after listening to him, I have found that he seems to be totally ignorant of civil disobedience, thinking that it is nothing more than governance in accordance with law and full compliance with law. This is certainly wrong. In fact, in the Kwoon Chung case this time around, one of the Judges, in a rare move, has quoted a large passage of literature about civil disobedience, which carries much meaning and insight. According to him, civil disobedience is a very honourable idea and philosophical thought. But in the end, he also pointed out that civil disobedience does not constitute a defence, nor is it a mitigating factor. I totally agree with his view, and will not beg leniency in respect of these issues. But the most important thing is that in the civil obedience movement today, we must firmly abide by the spirit of peace and rationalism, and that we have to see clearly the goal of our fight for democracy, lest Hong Kong will never find its path to the future indeed.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, I request a headcount according to Rule 17(2) of the Rules of Procedure.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Hak-kan, please speak.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, I had no intention to speak on this topic originally because it had been discussed time and again, be it in Council meetings, the House Committee or the Panel on Security. However, when I was sitting in the Chamber and hearing what pro-democracy Members said, I might 3048 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 not describe their views as contorted and twisted, but I found that they were a bit like taking a part for the whole, or they believed in or presented things selectively.
Dr KWOK Ka-ki said earlier that he had seen protesters being beaten into unconsciousness and heard the use of abusive language by the police to insult members of the public. I have this question for the pan-democrat Members. Have they ever seen any police officer faint as a result of being battered by a group of protestors? This is exactly what happened at Admiralty Centre two days ago. Have they heard the use of abusive language by members of the public to insult the police? We heard that. Did they not? President, is it an instance of selective deafness?
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
Deputy President, I know that Dr Kenneth CHAN is a devout Catholic, and that many of the pan-democrat Members are either Christians or Catholics. I am not a believer, but I have read a Bible story, which teaches that one who is about to hurl a stone at others may also need to reflect on whether he has erred. Obviously, our pan-democrat Members have not done so. When Dr Kenneth CHAN made a righteous and indignant call on Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying to act as a person of commitment, we also saw that the Occupy Central Trio turned themselves in today. Why is Dr CHAN, or the pan-democrat Members, not so committed as to turn themselves in, too? Among the pan-democrat Members present today, I see that only Mr WU Chi-wai is the most committed one. But regrettably, while I am singing praises of him now, he is not in the Chamber.
Deputy President, I very much agree with Mr WONG Kwok-hing's remark that today's motion is actually a bid by the pan-democrat Members to blame others cheekily. This time, the Court issued the injunctions, and the police assisted bailiffs in enforcing the judgment passed by the Court. The Judge has made it clear in the judgment that the barricades have to be removed. Whether it is from the lawyers' mouth or from television or radio broadcast, everyone is well aware of the message. Nevertheless, when the police and bailiffs removed the barricades on the scene, Members could see how protesters reacted; during the night right after the end of the clearance operation as well as the forthcoming LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3049
Saturday and Sunday, Members could also see how protesters charged the police. This is a far cry from the concept of civil disobedience as advocated by Benny TAI of the Occupy Central Trio at the very beginning, which preaches that offenders are liable to their own wrongdoings.
Deputy President, you can see that some people threw hard objects at the police, and the police were able to uncover a lot of home-made weapons on the bodies of protesters. While the pan-democrat Members described the police as violent when the latter wielded their batons to beat protesters on their heads, did they not see the weapons made by the protestors, including the carton shields with nails embedded in the back, as well as how the police were greeted with bricks? Instead, did they keep an eye shut and choose not to present the full picture before the Council?
Deputy President, I can see how our police carry out operations amid risks to personal safety. Before carrying out operations, they had made unequivocal calls for the protesters to disperse and raised red flags. The police on duty asked them to leave, but they did not; when the police were provoked or about to carry out operations, they resisted and blamed them. To put it colloquially, I really want to say that you guys are the ones doing all the talking and playing all the tricks.
I guess the pan-democrat Members should have made less visits to the community recently because they might frequent the occupied areas more often, so they might not have much idea about the current public sentiments. In fact, be it from the results provided by poll organizations, or the views we come across from among the public during our visits to the community, most of the people oppose the Occupy action. Two days ago, I dined at a small eatery, where television scenes of the clashes between the public and the police caused quite a stir among the diners. What they chided were not the police, but the rioters who charged them. Deputy President, it shows that both the public reaction and the results of opinion polls have sent a very clear message to the pan-democrat Members as to which side the public is on. I advise the pan-democrat Members not to cheer themselves up in this Chamber by advancing arguments that take a part for the whole, because everyone really knows that if illegal occupation persists, Members from the opposition camp will lose popular support, as Mr Ronny TONG from the pan-democratic camp pointed out.
Some Members mentioned freedom of the press in their speeches. Of course, chaos may arise in the course of enforcement actions taken by the police, 3050 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 causing inconveniences to journalists at work, or some misunderstanding might ensue, but I do not see any implication on freedom of the press. If the pan-democrat Members use freedom of the press as a means to sling mud at the police, I consider their attempt utterly shameless.
A Member said earlier that those protesters are actually the so-called amateur troublemakers. If that is the case, why do the pan-democrat Members bother to speak in their defence here? What is the point of exalting these protesters to the skies in this Council? Do they want them to go on occupying, offer them some spiritual support or encouragement, or do they wish them to leave the roads early? I really have no idea of the stand and thinking of the pan-democrat Members. Deputy President, illegal occupation of the roads has not only irritated the public badly but also exhausted our Police Force both physically and mentally. If no one had taken the lead to organize Occupy Central, if the pan-democrat Members had not instigated it here, things would not have come to this pass today.
Here, I would like to send my best regards to all the police officers who remain steadfast in their posts. I also have to advise the pan-democrat Members that when they are to hurl stones at our Government, our police and us pro-establishment Members, may they please pause for a while and think if they have erred in one way or another.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I request a headcount according to Rule 17(2) of the Rules of Procedure.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, please speak.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3051
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I hope that after today the pan-democrats will not vent their spleen at the Police anymore. Hong Kong as it is now is really sick. Hong Kong needs a doctor badly. But it is not a doctor who only knows to scold the Police but it should be a doctor who is really fair and impartial, prepared to heal a divided society like Hong Kong.
Deputy President, many people are asking this question: Why are the police placed between a rock and a hard place in our political controversies? Mr Gary FAN said that all the problems are the Government's own making. We may as well take a look at the facts. Actually, before the NPC made its decision on 31 August, in January 2013, the Next Magazine carried an interview with the proponent of Occupy Central, Benny TAI. He was sitting there in Central, saying that he wanted to initiate an unlawful campaign with 10 000 people taking part and which would serve to paralyse Central. The aim was to make traffic come to a standstill, cause a halt to the economic lifeline of Hong Kong and paralyse the Police Force. He reckoned that the Police have at most 28 000 officers and 10 000 people could paralyse the Force. The time was about one and a half years before the 31 August Decision. We can see from this that right from the very beginning these proponents of Occupy Central aim at damaging the public interest of Hong Kong, undermining the means of living of the business sector and businessmen, as well as paralysing the Police Force of Hong Kong.
Therefore, all along there have been sentiments of attacking, targeting, smearing, insulting and inciting the Police. Benny TAI even wrote an article also before the 31 August Decision. He targeted the Police Force and incited it to take a non-cooperative attitude. They very much hoped that the Police Force would fall into their trap such that four police officers would be deployed to man-handle one protester and so the 10 000 protesters will be carried away this way. They thought that the Police Force would be paralysed this way. For if not, places like Wan Chai, Tsim Sha Tsui, Sha Tin … I remember that the article was most shocking. The so-called love and peace will certainly turn into hatred and division. This is not an unexpected event but a natural course of development.
I have had many rounds of public debate with him. I had gone through the experience of the 4 June tragedy and I have persuaded him many times with the best intention that his action would only lead to three kinds of destruction: destruction caused to the young people of Hong Kong; destruction caused to Hong Kong society; and destruction caused to the constitutional reform in Hong 3052 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
Kong and which will turn the clock back five to 10 years. At that time they all heard my prediction but they refused to heed it. It was not that I could predict anything. I just happen to understand China and I know what Hong Kong should do to co-operate and how to fight for greater room for Hong Kong. Unfortunately, however, they have not heeded my advice.
Recently some members of the public told me that Benny TAI only talked about Occupy Central in the interview. He is playing with fire and he is setting a fire. But what he wants is only to set fire to a tree, not the entire forest. It is not his business when the forest catches fire. I recall that he had said many times that they would not need secondary school students or young people. What turns out in the end? Now the entire movement is led by young people. Yesterday I heard Joshua WONG say that he had five charges to his account. I feel sad about it. It seems that he does not care about it at all. This really makes us feel sad. The people are furious. It is because even if these people turn themselves in, it will not heal this divided society. The fact that Hong Kong can have such brilliant achievements today is due to the hard work of generations of people. The prosperity, affluence, rule of law and freedom cannot have achieved in one day. But this "great" Umbrella Movement has pulled wool over the hearts of many young people. They fail to see the hard effort made by their predecessors. They only know that they cannot get what they want now. I once saw on the TV a young girl say to a policeman, "How can you not feel sorry for your next generation?" When I heard this query, I felt that I could not remain silent anymore. We should really speak up so that we would not feel sorry for our next generation and the generations before us.
Members may notice that some employers have said that they will not hire university graduates from Hong Kong. This is because a small number of radical young people have led this movement such that many nice young people follow their footsteps and all of them are now lost. These people are university students of Hong Kong. And so what should we think about these university students we have now? Many citizens say that previously these young people are awesome. But now these young people are awful. Why?
Some young people told me that they had taken part in the movement for one or two days. They gave it a try for one or two days. They could not help but take part, or else they will be ostracized. They said that once a first-year university student he met a fourth-year student on campus. That fourth-year LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3053 student asked him why he turned up on the campus. Now those students who go to school are called book worms by other people. Do university students have to take to the streets? Can they not choose to study?
People of this generation are pitiful. A certain number or even a large number of them take part in the occupation. But now they must be at a loss because they know that the movement really goes to nowhere. There is no breakthrough or achievement. Many citizens get enraged and they hate them. They are sick about the things they are doing. This kind of action cannot make them heroes as they imagined. They are scolded by the people on the street for disrupting order in Hong Kong. There are some young people who are silent and dare not speak out. They say that they do not want to take part, even just for one or two days because they do not want to be cheated. It is because they are afraid of speaking out, for the fear that they will be ostracized. Many of them are depressed. Young people of this generation are thus divided. I would think that our society is now placed in a most pathetic moment.
There is this store in Central selling decorations which I often patronize. A salesperson spent half an hour complaining to me. Business in the store dropped drastically because of this movement. And of greater importance is that person who lives in Causeway Bay once had tea with her son in a restaurant and her son asked her for money to buy something. It turned out that he was going to buy articles for Occupy Central. She was angry and asked her son to give the money back to her. Just think about how the feelings between this mother and her son are torn apart. There is a couple who live in Kowloon West and they are very happy because their son can study in the University of Hong Kong. Then in sadness they decided not to attend their son's graduation ceremony because they could not stand it. Graduation ceremonies these days have changed beyond recognition. A policeman once said to me in tears that once he went home off duty and it was late at night. He had wanted to make a complaint. But he saw the words "black cop" written on the collar of his shirt by his son who studies in a university. He was very sad and did not know what to say and to whom. The Police Force used to give people an image of toughness. But he broke into tears. He scolded his son and told him to leave quickly. It was because he did not want anything to happen to the both of them. He said they should cool down before they could meet again. For all these sad stories from the Police Force, have Members ever heard any of them? This police officer placed great trust in me and that is why he shared his painful experience with me. I fully understand the passion of the young people and I have even taken part in a movement like 3054 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 this. I feel very sad whenever I see those umbrellas. I have this feeling: Why are the young people asked to charge at the front line? I have said many times that those proponents of the movement seem to be playing with fire but those who set the fire do not know how to put it out. Politics is like fire and it is like setting fire to a hill and no one knows how to put it out.
Members, I was an eye-witness to the movement in Beijing. It stemmed from an anti-corruption movement. It was then 15 April and the young people took to the streets. But we did not know the way, nor did we know about international politics. All we had was a burning heart. We did not know that there was a fierce political struggle among the leaders. The young people became more and more radical and they even came to the leaders face to face. They would scold at the moderate ones. Why do I have this deep reflection? It is because I used to be a member of the moderate group. I understand that amid chaos and confusions, one cannot hear anything. At that time I was on the scene and I found out that some people were inciting the students, claiming that the Paris commune had been realized and soon they would take over China. Many students stayed to the end because of this belief. But who told us that a generation of people would be sacrificed and for many, they could never set foot on China again?
Members, when you people initiate the young people to take part in a dangerous movement like this, I hope you would pause and think, their passion should not be used this way. This applies to last night particularly when I learnt that an apparel outlet was disturbed by young people. To my surprise they were very happy and that was because a salesperson from that shop had said something they did not like. May I ask, "What has happened to our civilized way of life? What has happened to our rule of law? Is political struggle all that is left in us?"
On political struggles, China has gone through many. My observation is that things like struggles, breaking the law, revolutions and resistances are certainly a dead end in China. What can be done in China and as we can see in history are gradual and orderly progress. It is true that China has got a heavy burden on its shoulders, like a turtle carrying a heavy shell on its back. What we need to do is using science and technology and other indirect means to make that shell not so heavy. But if you are anxious and if you want to take that shell away so that the turtle can go faster, the result will be it stopping, unable to move any further. I have seen people who defy their fate and vow to resist. This is nothing new. We have all gone through this. But does defiance of fate necessarily mean civil disobedience? Will there be another way out? LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3055
Members should perhaps try to understand the situation in China, which is very complicated. An old man once said to me, the people of Hong Kong know nothing about politics in China and Chinese politics is a subject which is very hard to fathom. According to past experience, if this kind resistance or unlawful action develops into a riot, disturbance or a revolution ― the Cultural Revolution started off as a very idealistic movement and that was because we were fed up with the conservative nature of Chinese culture, the result was political struggles among the people and the economic and political development of China fell back by 10 years. And we did not get what we had wanted. Members, it has been very hard for China to have made such achievements today. Should we not learn the lesson from history as we heal the wound of history? We all remember the tragedy of the past and so do I. But should we not think about why a large mass movement which has gone out of control is doomed to failure? It is like back in those days there were people who thought that they could catch up with the United States in no time. But they did not study the means, failing to understand what the situation was like in China. All they knew was to tell people to charge blindly. In the end, only tragedies happened and many people died.
I hope very much that there can be reconciliation in Hong Kong and soon we can go past this colour revolution. Proponents of this Movement should be brave enough to call a halt to it and review all the negative effects of this Movement. I hope we can treat our Police Force with a fair, impartial and rational attitude. This is because it may be that given the great pressure, the Police Force may have done something wrong and some of them may be out of control. But we should not reject them categorically and we should not just hurl abuses at them. Hong Kong still needs this excellent Police Force to upkeep law and order and protect the rule of law so that our society can be a safe place. The rule of law and freedom that we enjoy will soon be undermined. It is because of this advantage that we should come together and fight to achieve the democracy that we want. I hope that we can reach a consensus and, that is, the democracy we want is not mob democracy. The kind of democracy we want is genuine democracy of a high quality. But what we can see now is a kind of democracy that many people in Hong Kong are afraid of. I hope the democrats can hear this. What is the kind of democracy that you want to give Hong Kong? For those who do not trust you or who do not agree with you, you should persuade them. And we should pluck up greater courage and use a broader breadth of mind to salvage Hong Kong and heal a shattered society.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, more than 500 members of the public went to the Police Headquarters today to express support for the police's law-enforcement actions, and I am very pleased with what they did. In my view, a lot of them as well as the general public remain immensely displeased with the Umbrella Revolution. I hope that the Police may take enforcement according to law, such that those members of the public significantly affected now can resume their normal life.
Coincidentally, the Occupy Central organizers turned themselves in today. Their surrendering signifies the complete failure of the Umbrella Revolution, as well as its conclusion. Therefore, in my opinion, it is a critical moment to discuss the problems or pros and cons in the police's law-enforcement actions over the past period of time.
The rule of law has always been an element of success for Hong Kong. Winning people's respect and fear, the Police are considered a middleman who enforces the law, so they would very often be asked for help in case of any problem. However, in this Umbrella Revolution, this role has turned into one of confrontation, in particular the Umbrella Revolution organizers who view the Police as the target on the opposite front subject to their oppression or even attack. They regarded the law-enforcement actions by the Police as a sign of violence or violent acts, and hence stoke up public discontent against them. This is exactly one of the major tactics employed by them in their revolution. Therefore, the Police encountered rather difficult problems in the course of law enforcement, and this constitutes a challenging aspect of the incident.
As I mentioned in the past, the Police have the will but not the power at present. With the use of such tactics, the Police are compelled not to use greater force to stop those occupiers of public passage. In this way, they can do whatever they want, which I would describe as a kind of anarchism. They even went so far as to assume the role of a law enforcer, to the extent that anyone wishing to access the roads would have to seek their prior permission. This is similar to the state subsequent to the fall of a government during a war. Therefore, it would be even worse if the Government does not remain steadfast in its post and enforce the law.
As regards the "Lung Wo Road clash" on 30 November, I must sing praises of modern technology. Apart from the footage captured by conventional media, different people may use mobile phones and other devices nowadays to capture LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3057 images of how two parties were in a stalemate and how they attacked each other. This allows us to look at the incident from different angles, and members of the public are able to identify reports that may be inaccurate and ones that would better reflect the overall picture from their own analysis.
In the "Lung Wo Road clash", we saw that some unlawful protesters donned the so-called protective gear, which was even more superior than their police counterparts. At the same time, they lifted mills barriers and charged forward, but police manpower at the time was far less than theirs. If the Police had not used any force under such circumstance, as some pan-democrat Members put it, I believe the police officers concerned would have been injured, and there would have been heavy casualties. Hence, the Police Force demonstrated professionalism and restraint at the time and managed to use appropriate force. In my opinion, Hong Kong people should consider the Police Force an elite troop, which is a fitting way of describing them.
We saw that many police officers were forced to use their batons to fend off the attackers. But as the footage showed, the Police merely hit the home-made shields held by the protesters. As Honourable colleagues mentioned earlier, in the middle layer of these shields were wooden boards, iron plates and even nails. Those attacks were not ones made by an ordinary crowd, but were a kind of violent charging. Yet, the Police exercised restraint. Instead of beating the protesters on the head, they merely hit their wooden boards in order to disperse them. However, after a round of charging was subdued, they initiated yet another round. In my view, Hong Kong people should have witnessed what happened and understood it in their mind, and they will praise the Police for what they did as well as their professionalism. Therefore, 500 or so members of the public have expressed support for the police's law-enforcement actions today. I think that it is worthy for us to continue calling on the public to support the police.
When the injunctions were issued on Mong Kok on 25 November to pave the way for the police clearance operations, some Members who are lawyers themselves made remarks that really raised eyebrows. They said that the scope set out in the injunctions had to be followed through, so the Police could not enforce the law. As lawyers, they should have attained certain levels of professionalism. As the Court has ruled on the scope of the injunctions and set out the regulation for compliance, and lawyers as well as members of the public are watching on the scene, occupiers should hence withdraw expeditiously to return the roads to the public. On the contrary, they went further to become cheerleaders and interfered with the law-enforcement actions as a whole, thus it 3058 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 was normal for the Police to step in. When the Police stepped in, pan-democrat Members as well as lawyers came forward to disapprove of their action in an attempt to meddle with the clearance operations as a whole, thus creating some disturbances. Then, they criticized the Police for using excessive force. And when some photojournalists got hurt inadvertently on the scene, the Police were then blamed for tampering with freedom of the press. Such accusations have posed challenges to the police and really put them under double setback. However, it is good to see the Police stick to their professional and restrained approach and continue to serve the public for the opening up of the long-occupied areas in Mong Kok.
Unfortunately, many troublemakers gathered in their unique ways to disturb business operators. As Honourable colleagues mentioned earlier, they stirred up disturbances in some shops, where they claimed to be shopping. But in fact, they merely stood in the way of other customers who wanted to do shopping there, thus causing a huge business loss to the shops. What is the difference between what they and other rioters do? I hope that the Police will continue to enforce the law strictly. Those acts of disrupting normal business operations should be regarded as offences in law. The Government should deal with them seriously and even enforce the law in order to bring them to justice.
During the period, a lot of unlawful occupiers have spearheaded to extend their sphere across other districts. Nevertheless, what public reactions did we observe? First of all, in Yuen Long, they were chided and even booed. Later on, be it in Yau Ma Tei, Sai Kung, Ap Lei Chau, and so on, they were treated likewise. It shows that the Umbrella Revolution of "love and peace", as they claimed, has utterly changed in nature to a level deeply resented by members of the public, whose only wish is that they stay away so as to avoid being plagued by the unnecessary mess they are going to create in the districts concerned. Hence, I believe that their endeavour to deepen the Umbrella Revolution across the territory will turn out to be a complete failure.
That the Occupy Central Trio have turned themselves in will send the revolution down a road of slow decline and gradual demise. Here, I would like to call on them to go home expeditiously so as to allow the public to enjoy a better, normal life as soon as possible for the continuous prosperity and stability of Hong Kong. For the continuous prosperity and stability of Hong Kong, consultation on the constitutional reform has to be conducted and carried out in accordance with the law. Without lawful, reasonable and appropriate arrangements for the constitutional reform, concussion of various degrees will ensue, and the development of society will encounter an even bigger setback. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3059
Therefore, I would express my wish here that pan-democrat Members will support the new round of consultation on constitutional reform in order for the whole constitutional system to move forward and for Hong Kong to really achieve a great reconciliation.
I so submit. Thank you, Deputy President.
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, this unlawful occupation movement has been going on for two months. It has caused serious damage to Hong Kong. The harmony in our society, the rule of law, the prestige of the SAR Government in governance and the effective governance of Hong Kong have all suffered serious impacts.
Deputy President, Mong Kok is a place where many grassroots live and there are shopkeepers of various sizes and types. We also know that shopkeepers in Mong Kok face great pressure in making a living. The rent for a very small shop may fetch half a million dollars and the rent for a larger shop may fetch $2 million. When the Occupy Central movement began, many shopkeepers said that their business dropped substantially by 70% and many of them said that business fell by 30%. Now it is two months into the occupation and some shops have been closed because they cannot stand the costs. They have incurred great losses. People who live in the occupied areas cannot sleep during the night and their emotions are greatly disturbed. Many people have to spend an extra half an hour to one hour going to and from their place of work every day.
Deputy President, such examples of people being affected are countless. Some people complain that since Mong Kok is occupied, they have to spend at least an extra half an hour every day in going to work from Tai Kok Tsui to Tai Po. And there are people who sent messages in anger to me, saying that a taxi ride from Wan Chai to North Point takes one and a half hours. This is really ridiculous. They are really furious. Why? Apart from being unhappy about the Occupy movement, they are very unhappy because the Police have not been swift in enforcing the law and not invoking the law. This is because the occupation has been going on for two months. The voice of the people is loud and clear. Why do the Police not take enforcement actions according to law and restore order in the streets?
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
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President, some people may say that only some more time is spent and that cannot be considered a great loss, right? However, for many trades and industries, especially those in the transportation industry, we can read in the newspapers the great losses they have incurred. Now the trunk roads in Admiralty, Mong Kok and Causeway Bay are blocked. There are reports that losses incurred to the transportation industry amount to more than $2 billion. The taxi groups and taxi drivers are the greatest victims. Some taxi drivers say that business has fallen by more than 30% and for some people, it is as much as 50%. They cannot do anything. They have tried to persuade the protesters to leave but the protesters will not go away. They have tried to remove the barricades, but the Police will not allow them to do so. They asked the Police to enforce the law swiftly but the Police seemed to think that it was not the right time. So they applied for an injunction from the Court and after the injunction was granted, we all know clearly that the roads are still occupied and the users have no way to use the roads in a reasonable manner. It is natural that the Police should help execute the injunction.
I wish to point out that demand on the Police to take enforcement actions according to law and restore order in the streets is a long-standing aspiration of the people. Before the injunction was granted, 1.83 million people signed up to demand that the roads be returned to the people. This demand for returning the roads to the people and restoring order is getting clearer and clearer as the findings of various surveys show. Some Members said in public that figures in these surveys are inflated. I wish to ask these Members to go to the districts and listen carefully to what the people are saying. Actually the citizens do not want to wait until an injunction is granted by the Court. They hope that the Police can enforce the law and restore order as soon as possible so that the roads can be returned to the people. The citizens therefore greatly support the Police in executing the injunction and enforcing the law and restoring order in society as soon as possible.
President, many Members who have spoken earlier have tried to demonize the enforcement actions by the Police. They even said that the Police are "black cops" or "licensed rogues". I would think that this kind of insult directed at the Police is much too irresponsible and heartless. If only we can listen to and talk with the front-line police officers, we will know that they have suffered great humiliation during the occupation period and they have also faced great difficulties. There is a commander who has almost not gone home for sleep ever since the occupation. And a large number of front-line officers are always LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3061 scolded by the protesters and greeted with verbal abuses as well. Members said that the Police should exercise restraint when enforcing the law. Can protesters, insisting on what they call a demand for democracy, occupy the roads and abuse police officers verbally as well as those who hold views different from theirs?
President, there has got to be ways and steps in striving for democracy. One must not allow this fight for democracy to become lawless and it must not become a reason for blocking roads and obstructing road-users. Nor can it become an excuse for scolding other people recklessly. President, such acts are actually anti-democracy. Apart from undermining the rule of law in Hong Kong, the use of verbal violence to insult people holding different views is something which Members have personally experienced. I am not saying that all occupiers are like that. But as we walk past the occupied zones or certain places, we have had this experience of verbal violence.
There should be tolerance in democracy and also respect for the opinions held by other people. I hope therefore that they can put an end to this kind of verbal violence, especially that directed at police officers on duty. I ask them to respect the Police in law-enforcement, for the latter are merely acting according to the law.
President, certain Members said that the Police have used excessive force. As seen on the TV, the Police have been reviewing their equipment as different operations are carried out. In the clearance operation in Mong Kok, they did not don any protective clothing and as I have seen on the TV, they were just using basic equipment. It can be said to be a combat with bare hands. The enforcement action taken by the Police was very restrained. It had been stated beforehand that unless protesters charged at police cordon, no pepper spray or batons would be used. About public misapprehensions about the use of tear gas, the Police have taken note. We can see that the Police have adjusted their equipment and enforcement tactic and they are extremely restrained. I therefore am convinced that in the past enforcement actions, the Police have displayed a high degree of professionalism and restraint and used minimal force.
President, many members of the public have stopped me as I walk on the streets. They said they could see that the Police had done their best and were very restrained and that they had been insulted during the occupation period. They all remember these. They supported the enforcement action of the Police and they wished to ask me to convey their support to the Secretary in the Council. 3062 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014
President, about the dozens of police officers injured while on duty, they have also asked me to send them their best regards and requested the Secretary to do a proper job of counselling the police officers. President, Secretary, since police officers are armed with guns, if they suffer fatigue for long periods of time and face insults, causing their emotions to go up and down, this is something which should be carefully dealt with indeed. I implore the Secretary to dwell on these aspects in his response later on.
President, Members know full well that the enforcement operations of the police are under strict scrutiny. Police officers have to abide by internal guidelines and the media will follow up and even a passer-by or a protester can use his or her camera to film the actions. I therefore believe that the Police will do their best to complete their tasks with the use of minimal force.
President, as for those allegations made by certain Members against individual police officers on duty or those complaint cases found on the Internet, I wish to ask the Secretary and the CAPO to handles these cases with fairness. This is because by being fair, justice can be done to the police and also to the complainants.
President, the Occupy Central Trio have at last turned themselves in today and called on the occupiers to leave. I have criticized them on a number of occasions and I have condemned the occupiers for their irresponsible acts. Once a movement begins, we do not know how it will end. Although they are willing to turn themselves in and call upon the protesters to withdraw, it seems that this may not be effective. However, President, since they are willing to turn themselves in and appeal to the occupiers to retreat, I note with approval. I also ask Members from the pan-democratic camp to search their souls and make the same appeal. We all know that if places are occupied illegally and violence is used, it can never gain any greater democracy for Hong Kong. If students are asked to stay on occupying and charge, this is like asking them to make senseless sacrifice. I hope these Members can act responsibly and call upon the occupiers to withdraw.
President, when occupation continues, it will only undermine the rule of law and the citizens will continue to suffer. The economy of Hong Kong will be damaged and this is like self-mutilation. Hunger strike is a kind of self-mutilation and it will not enable democracy in Hong Kong to forge ahead. This we all know very well. It is because one should have tactics besides having LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3063 ideals. About this self-mutilation, irrespective of whether it is against the Hong Kong economy or one's body, it is absolutely wrong. I now appeal to all protesters in the Occupy Central movement to know when to make retreat. They should cherish our society and attach importance to the rule of law. They should treasure their own bodies and stop this kind of self-mutilation and the Occupy Central movement.
President, I so submit.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Members should ask themselves: Why has Hong Kong come to this pass today? The violent system is the cause. The obstruction imposed by the executive and the Central Government on the democratization is the cause. Yet the so many corrupted government officials in the SAR can go into hiding under this undemocratic system. The one who has built unauthorized structures has not been held accountable. The one who has received £4 million during his tenure does not even have to explain his case. This Council is involved in condoning the violence of these systems. Will Members ask themselves why such deep anger will have built up in Hong Kong as a whole and why it will break out today?
From 1950s onwards, the Hong Kong Police Force (HKPF) have been given different nicknames, including "差 人" (cops), "雜 差" (CID), "有牌爛仔" (authorized gangsters). By the time around 1997, they were called "警 察" (police officers) or "警察叔叔" (Uncle Police) in a more friendly manner. However, in the past year or two, things changed rapidly. They were then called "黑 警" (black cops) and "警 渣" (police dregs). The change of these nicknames reveals the highs and lows of the confidence of Hong Kong people in the rule of law of Hong Kong and the Police. Today, the Police Force have become a political tool, a tool for tussles and an opponent to the people. Who made such a change?
In the end of September and early October, we heard the Central Authorities decree the slogan of "no blood, no compromises". Mr LEUNG Che-cheung said that no one had been beaten in the head. But this is not true. Recently, we have seen photos showing people being beaten, with blood gushing from their heads. Are Members seeing but not perceiving? These scenes can be seen on the Internet, the newspapers and televisions. No matter how, we 3064 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 want to settle these conflicts. We have to dress the bleeding wound of Hong Kong, but not by the escalated violence adopted by the Police.
Regrettably, police officers have now resorted to baton beating when the authorities try to avoid the shocking scene of firing tear gas canisters. Nonetheless, the use of police batons has opened the Pandora's box, releasing all the evils of humanity. When police offices started the beating in Mong Kok, LEUNG Chun-ying came forward to smear the "MK people" and sow discord among Hong Kong people. He said that people in Mong Kok were from complicated background, and they would not leave easily if they joined the Admiralty protest. As the Chief Executive of the SAR, how can he provoke division among Hong Kong people in this way? In fact, people in Admiralty and people in Mong Kok are all Hong Kong citizens. Grassroots do not necessarily come from complicated background. Besides, graduates from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are among protesters in Mong Kok, whereas graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are among protesters in Admiralty. There are professionals, social workers, teachers, reporters and members from the financial sector in both protest venues. The Chief Executive should stop doing evil and dividing Hong Kong people.
LIN Yuet-chun has put forth some international standards on regulating the use of police batons. First, batons should not be struck at the head but only on the lower half of the body or the limbs. Second, batons should not be used as an offensive weapon. A baton should not be wielded from a level above the user's shoulders. The user can only strike at the head when his life is under dire threat, and the injured person should be sent to hospital for treatment before the arrest is made. However, the Police in Hong Kong have followed none of these international standards. We have seen many photos showing people being beaten at their heads and with blood gushing, continual beating of the injured and people fastened with plastic cords and people beaten by seven at the same time, and even medical personnel were beaten up. Why will the Police degenerate to this state?
In early October, the people did not raise any opposition, not to say fighting back. They just used some simple items like goggles, cling wrap and umbrellas to protect themselves. However, the Secretary had once questioned that umbrellas could also be offensive weapons, and he considered people wearing goggles and wrapped in cling wrap intent on launching attacks. In fact, these were only excuses made up to justify the use of escalated violence. This LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3065 has sparked off a vicious cycle on both sides in escalating their level of violence. We need not refer to the use of foul language, rebuttals and insults, for both sides have been using these tactics towards the other side. This is the fact.
However, the Police Force are a team with professional training and they should know how to manage their emotions. Although the Public are unleashing their emotions in these manners, Members should not think that the Police can unleash their emotions in the same manners. As the Police Force are supported by the possession of pistols, tear gas canisters, batons, laws and powers, as well as prisons, it will be extremely dangerous if they abuse their power and lose control of their tempers. As such, the Police should be the first to exercise restraint. Yet what we see now is the Police leading the attack and unleashing their violent emotions. When the Police use force arbitrarily, or even resort to violence, the rule of law in Hong Kong will fall apart. For the public will no longer trust that they can seek assistance from police officers in the event of conflicts among the people, and they will resort to private fighting as a means to settle their conflicts. If the situation continues, the rule of law will collapse.
The use of batons has smashed the public's confidence in the rule of law and offered the temptation to suppress violence with violence. When police officers were beating protesters angrily from the back with their eyes turned red, people witnessing the injustice and violence, or people falling victim to such violence, will be boiled over with anger. Their anger will not fade even after a very long period of time. Yet, the pro-establishment camp of this legislature will not be able to understand such anger, for they have been applying such violence under the present system. However, when a lot of people have experienced such injustice, they will despise the Police from the bottom of their heart, and they may even be tempted to use violence to suppress the violent. This will have profound adverse impacts on Hong Kong and society as a whole.
A professional social worker told me on the Internet that he did not know how to explain the case to young people whose hands had nearly been broken by police officers who beat them. The social worker did not know how to explain to the young people that they should stick to the peaceful approach, for the social worker could hardly convince himself. This is the sequelae to the Police taking the lead to use escalated violence. In early October, a university lecturer punched by the Police for unknown reasons. Recently, the university lecturer said that he had to reconsider whether peaceful protest was a powerful approach.
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President, these are the sequelae to the escalated violence used by the Police. The Police may continue arresting protesters by force, yet the anger in their hearts will not be smashed. In the beginning, the protesters took to the streets to strive for democracy. But now, people take to the street to oppose the Police. The situation may run out of control once started, and governance will be made impossible just as the President said.
When people go shopping in Mong Kok, how can the authorities impose regulation? In a place where no curfew has been imposed, a large number of police officers are stationed there every night as if a curfew is in effect. In fact, people should have changed their tactics long since from playing offensive to playing defensive. Occupiers should stop guarding Mong Kok and leave it to the Police to play the guardians. By then, the public may choose to do shopping any time they want and the Police will be exhausted. Why do they have to do that? Why has Hong Kong come to this pass? Why can the Police not take the lead to give up violent means? Why can the Government not respond to the aspiration of the public on constitutional reform? Why can the Government not adopt an upright approach in opening a dialogue with the public, responding to the students and addressing the social conflicts arisen from constitutional reform? The beginning of baton strikes has revealed the dark side of Hong Kong, uncovering to Hong Kong people that under the Government led by LEUNG Chun-ying, good people will turn bad and bad people will turn worse.
President, I would like to talk about the Lucifer effect here. In 1971, a psychologist in Stanford University, which Mrs Regina IP used to study, conducted a psychological experiment. The University identified 24 healthy students who came from famous universities, middle-class families and had received higher education to take part in the experiment. They had to pass a psychological test to confirm that they were normal persons before participating in the experiment. Half of the university students in the group would play the prisoners. What a pity. Once they entered the jail, they had to take off all of their clothes to undergo body-searches and be sprayed with insecticide for disinfection. They were not allowed to put on any underwear, and they have to wear women's stockings on their head to simulate shaven heads. In the very beginning, they were subject to treatment of various kinds to strip them of their dignity. As for the other half of the group, they would play the warders and make their own rules to safeguard these prisoners. As a result, in less than six days, the warders invented some new measures to abuse the prisoners, convinced LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3067 that they were subject to no monitoring. They would wake up these bogus prisoners in the middle of the night to abuse them, including requesting them to do push-ups continuously. They even stepped on the back of those prisoners while they were doing push-ups to prevent them from completing the task. On the sixth day, only one of the 50 participants found the situation unacceptable and called for a halt of the experiment. Why? For the game had caused the good people … even Dr ZIMBARDO, the person in charge of the experiment, thought that he was the warden of the prison and forgot that he was doing an academic study. Later, in an interview of the participants playing the warders, one third of them said that they could not resist the temptation of power and had abused their power. As for the remaining warders, two thirds of them, though they were good people, did not dare speak up and stop the abuse.
President, in only six days, a group of middle-class students from Stanford University were corrupted by power in no time. I do not see that the Police which have been authorized by the LEUNG Chun-ying Administration and the hawkish Commissioner Andy TSANG to carry out the beating mission can manage their emotions well. Under such a Government, good people will not have the opportunity to be good, so they cannot but turn bad. I agree with the psychological counselling services mentioned by the Member earlier. Any healthy person being manipulated by senior government officials in such a manner will become pathetic.
In the interview conducted after the experiment, this group of students from Stanford University admitted that they had intensified the abuse by inventing some new methods to abuse the prisoners for fun, for the work of law-enforcement was so boring and their powers were not subject to any check and balance. We can see the darkest side of humanity. When people are given the opportunity to stay in a closed environment and a group of people are allowed to treat the others as if they are not human, people with power will turn into werewolves in six days and inflict abuses arbitrarily.
In the final analysis, President, the conflict this time is the constitutional reform. I understand that many members of the public may consider that the Occupy Central movement are causing inconveniences, traffic congestion and loss of business. Yesterday, Benny TAI put forth a very good interpretation. He said that the situation was comparable to the outbreak of a fire in Hong Kong. Some people sounded the alarm and called others to escape and put out the fire, 3068 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 but many people thought that these people had disrupted their dream time and sleep and that their cries were too noisy. This is an apt depiction of the current situation of Hong Kong.
However, political issues should be addressed by the system eventually. First, it should protect Hong Kong people from institutionalized violence and the violence of the Police. If LEUNG Chun-ying relies solely on the escalated violence exercised by the Police in delivering his governance, he is sowing seeds of calamity. The anger of the public will last longer than the Umbrella Movement, and it will persist in the next 10 to 20 years, making governance more difficult. Yet if LEUNG Chun-ying is determined to reinforce his own power and position at all costs, even resorting to irregular approaches and evil tactics, he will be condemned as the sinner in the history of Hong Kong.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, point of order. I think a quorum is not present in the Chamber. Please exercise your power to make a headcount.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber. Some Members were talking aloud)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet. Mrs Regina IP, please speak.
MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): President, on Monday, when I prepared for the meeting today, I already told my colleagues in the party that after the police clearance of Admiralty on 1 December, a "big show" would definitely be put up in this Council with someone asking an urgent question or proposing a motion for adjournment. Now, as expected, police officers have been put on the spot by the Civic Party, as if they should be held accountable for all the disputes or violent conflicts in society over the past two months. This is really an act of putting the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3069 cart before the horse. In particular, just now, a number of pan-democrat Members kept smearing the Police in their speeches. I find them most biased and unfair. In short, their views are lopsided.
Certainly, I was not on the scene when the clearance operation began on 25 November. Neither could I judge the situation of the scene purely from the television footage. However, I noted a commentary published in the Ming Pao Daily News (Ming Pao) yesterday and I believe the commentary was based on the first-hand experience of the commentator. I do not often agree with the commentaries of Ming Pao, but I find this paragraph unbiased, and it is worthwhile for me to read it out. It reads, to this effect, "In the early hours of yesterday, the protesters and the Police fought all the way from Lung Wo Road to Tamar Park and then back and forth until they reached the Admiralty MTR at the Admiralty Centre. During the process, the use of force by the Police was indeed stronger than before. The Police were criticized for resorting to excessive force since pepper spray and batons continued to be used against some protesters who was retreating. Nevertheless, it takes two hands to clap. To start with, the siege was ordered by the HKFS and Scholarism, and the protesters' violent storming and provocation of the Police was the strongest throughout the Occupy movement. It is evident that the scenes of clash were a result of interaction. Should the movement persist, and should it be led by radical leaders, the next clash will become even more violent. Scenes of more bloodshed are not impossible. Is it not indeed adopting an indulgent attitude should one examine the statement issued by the democrats in the Legislative Council in relation to the siege of the Central Government Offices in this manner with some police officers condemned for using excessive and unnecessary force against the protesters while making no comment on the radical acts of the protesters? Will such an indulgent attitude breed evil? So, let us keep a close watch on the developments. Nonetheless, it is disappointing that the pro-democracy Members lack the moral courage of differentiating between right and wrong." President, this commentary was written by Ming Pao, not by me. I believe it was the actual situation witnessed by the reporter who was on the scene.
Just now, many pan-democrat Members kept criticizing the police officers for swearing at or beating the protesters. However, did they say anything about the number of people who shouted obscenities at the police officers and described them as evil cops, black cops and "police dogs", as well as many other revolting obscenities? What I find most disgusting is the disclosure of the personal information of a person and his friends and relatives. President, I had originally 3070 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 intended to ask an urgent question or propose a motion for adjournment on this practice today. However, I do not wish to embarrass you, President. Moreover, the Civic Party acted faster than me. It is really utterly ridiculous. In particular, the protection of personal privacy is taken so seriously by Members from various parties and groupings in this Council. Do Members recall an incident a couple of years ago in which some Members of this Council called on the Government to conduct an inquiry by invoking the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance (the P&P Ordinance) into the sale of passengers' data by the Octopus to marketing agencies? We can thus see the significance of personal privacy.
I wonder if Members are aware of an Internet stalking group called "Record of brutalities by Hong Kong police officers", which is supposed to be set up under the Golden group. All the "doxed" police officers are found to have taken part in the clearance operations in Mong Kok. In the "Record of brutalities by Hong Kong policemen", each police officer has his or her police number, thumb photo, name, personal data, residential address, telephone, relevant information, brutal acts and discussion questions and answers clearly set out. Moreover, advice on "doxing" is given as follows: After filming the police number, search his name and then his Facebook account through which all the data on his private life, including his emails and personal data, can be captured. Should the police officer use an open-source email system, there is a chance for the search for his mobile phone number to succeed. By means of the tag function of Facebook, the police officer and all the family members and friends who have taken photographs with him can be "doxed", too. After his interpersonal network is exposed, the stalker can dig out "black materials" from it for uploading onto the Internet forum set up for disciplined forces for "doxing" for a second time to examine if the police officer has made any mistakes in the course of his duty or negative comments made by people close to him. Some people have even called on others to work harder since the police officer will definitely be afraid of his loved ones being "doxed", even though he has a baton in his hand. To my understanding, more than 10 police officers, including Superintendent CHU King-wai from Sha Tin, have already been "doxed".
President, are all these acts illegal? I believe this question is quite urgent. So, an oral question or an adjournment debate is warranted. Nevertheless, I think that the quickest way to curb such acts is to put a question to the Privacy Commissioner for Personal Data in the hope that he can follow up the matter expeditiously. I am not supposed to lodge a complaint because I am not one of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3071 the victims under the law. However, I can ask questions to see under what law the Privacy Commissioner for Personal Data can take follow-up actions. Why is there no one to discuss these acts? Why is there no one to condemn people who hurled insults at the police officers? The Police have raided an arms cache held by a so-called "Princess Chiu Ming" and seized many weapons, including some home-made shields with nails embedded in them. Why is there no one to condemn the rioters who donned helmets and counted one, two, three before charging forward? The police officers have actually been working very hard. They are human beings, too. Moreover, they have been subject to all sorts of insults over the past two months, required to work long hours. The Legislative Council must do them justice.
President, another point I wish to make is that I hope Members can pay attention to the fact that the force used repeatedly by the Police in the clearance operations launched in Mong Kok or Admiralty on Sunday was just minimum force. It is imperative for them to use more force because this Occupy action has indeed dragged on for too long. If it is allowed to go on, the Police will have to deploy police officers from different units to the scenes to work long hours. Should the situation persist, Hong Kong's law and order will be affected. President, I wonder if you notice a complaint letter written to the South China Morning Post by an expatriate woman the other day. She said that when she went to the police headquarters at Arsenal Street to report a theft case at home, she found that the report room was full of people. Furthermore, she was told by a frustrated police officer that, as all the manpower had been deployed to deal with the anti-Occupy Central action, a longer waiting period would be required before minor cases could be dealt with. Should the Occupy Central action persist, the law and order situation in Hong Kong will be derailed, too.
Hence, there is indeed a need for the Police to resort to appropriate and deterrent force to caution those troublemakers who believe that they can storm the Government by force and achieve their illegal purpose. People who have some knowledge of police work should understand this and people watching the television could actually see that police officers would only hit the hands and feet of the people. Moreover, the protesters had covered their heads with helmets. As pointed out by Dr LO Wing-lok in his column, although many people criticized the police officers for using tear gas and beating up people, have our accident and emergency departments received many seriously injured persons? The answer is negative. Have any persons suffered permanent injuries? The answer is again negative. Although many of the police officers were injured, 3072 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 why did no one call on the protesters not to storm the police officers by force? President, I was originally in a hurry today to attend another function. However, I found it necessary to speak out on unfairness because I found the speeches delivered by many Members quite biased. I hope the pro-establishment colleagues who will speak after me can balance the remarks I heard just now, which are not only extremely biased but also far from the truth, so that justice can be done to the police officers.
I would also like to take this opportunity to say a few words about the cause and effect of the incident. Many pan-democrat Members have kept putting the blame on the HKSAR and Central Governments. Nevertheless, I would like to state a fact. When did Benny TAI start talking about civil disobedience? He wrote an article entitled "The most fatal weapon of civil disobedience" in the Hong Kong Economic Journal nearly two years ago in January 2013 when there was still a long way to go before the consultation on the election of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage, which had yet to begin. It is evident in his proposal on regarding civil disobedience as the most fatal weapon that he was prepared to engage in civil disobedience. So, who should be held accountable given that he was already prepared to fight against and pressurize the Central and HKSAR Governments by illegal means before the commencement of the consultation?
Perhaps we may take another look at the slogans appearing in the 1 July March? Before the decision made by the Central Government and the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, some people already expected a countdown and showdown. At that time, some people were prepared for a showdown and making a last-ditch effort, saying they would besiege the Government by force in a bid to coerce the Government into changing some constitutional decisions. So, which one is the cause and which one is the effect? I hope members of the public can see this clearly. Thank you, President.
MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): President, it is regrettable that the whole occupation movement is based on the tactics of hijacking and misleading the thinking and notions of the young people.
It is indeed evident that the prolonged occupation of roads in Mong Kok by protestors is in breach of the law. Regardless of whether there are injunction orders, there is sufficient legislation to justify the Police enforcing the law and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 3073 carrying out clearance operations. The Police have been taking a tolerant attitude in the past two months only because there were a large number of people participating in illegal activities and clearance would result in massive confrontations. The Court has now issued the injunction orders and stated clearly that no matter how lofty are the ideals as regarded by the protestors themselves, they cannot take illegal actions while violations of the injunction orders will even be undermining the rule of law. In fact, the protestors have been misled by the others into believing that civil disobedience is "breaching the law while doing nothing wrong", which is actually complete nonsense. The injunction orders conveyed a clear message to them, that what they did was basically not as romantic and noble as they had imagined but evident criminal behaviour. Some said that when the Police were executing the injunction orders, they should not take actions which were beyond the scope of the injunctions. This is also "super nonsense" misleading the public. In actual fact, the Police could have taken law-enforcement actions and clear the sites long ago. It is both lawful and reasonable for the Police to carry out clearance operation at any moment. They have waited until the injunction orders are now issued by the Court so that the Court can inform those who do not consider themselves as committing a crime that they are actually doing so.
As for the issue of the operation of the Police, they have actually taken a tolerant approach for a few months prior to this incident. From what we can see every day, the Police kept issuing warnings and urged protestors to disperse peacefully. It will literally be inconceivable if any Member or person says that the Police did not issue any warning beforehand. The Police did try to adopt a gentle approach to disperse the protestors. However, not only did it fail to achieve the aim of crowd dispersal, it also gave rise to the situation where the protestors surrounded, insulted and charged at the Police instead. It proved that the gentle approach simply did not work. Meanwhile, protestors were wearing all kinds of protective gear, including safety helmets, goggles, masks, shields and all. To achieve the goal of dispersal, the Police had no choice but to resort to the use of appropriate force.
The Police are actually very passive in terms of taking actions. Were it not for the protestors who put up radical resistance and charged at the Police, the Police would not have possibly resorted to the use of force. The Police will only need to increase the level of force accordingly under the circumstances where confrontation becomes increasingly radical. Therefore, it is basically unfair and 3074 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 3 December 2014 not helpful to solving the problems if we only accuse the Police of using excessive force while ignoring the fact that the protestors have put up an increasingly radical resistance.
Regarding the so-called shopping movement, it is basically a malicious disturbance which causes severe impact on the livelihood of business operators. It destroyed social order and harmed the society of Hong Kong, which will not bring any benefit to those people either. I hope they will stop engaging in such meaningless activities.
I think those who have suffered the most in the occupation movement are neither the Occupy Central Trio nor the student leaders of the Hong Kong Federation of Students and Scholarism as they have unlimited resources to support them. If they ever want to migrate to overseas countries or study abroad in future, I believe it will be possible since someone will make arrangements and take care of them. It is most heart-rending to see that the young people are those suffering the most. They have mistakenly believed in some seemingly lofty and romantic goals, and they are also misled by the others into believing that it is "breaching the law while doing nothing wrong". Hence, they made a courageous move to answer the appeal of other people and surrounded the government departments and the Police. They thought it was just like playing video games that it did not matter even when there were casualties. However, the reality is that any person who is convicted of common assault on a police officer shall be liable to imprisonment for six months; if anyone has injured another person or a police officer in an assault, he or she shall even be liable to imprisonment for a maximum of three years. According to section 17 of the Offences Against the Person Ordinance (Cap. 212) in Hong Kong, any person who wounds another person with intent to do grievous bodily harm shall even be liable to imprisonment for life.
Today, many Members from the opposition camp have referred to some rousing rumours online which created an impression that the Police have done something really wrong. However, I believe many people have learnt to be smart and understand that online rumours are mostly false. Similarly, the reason for some young people storming the Legislative Council a few days ago was that they were inspired by an online rumour which said the "Internet Article 23" would be passed. If they cause any criminal record to be kept of them in the future, I believe they will have no idea whom should they get even with.
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A Member just mentioned some radical organizations such as the "Black Panther" and "Red Brigades" in the past. However, he fell short of mentioning what happened to these organizations in the end. Those people not only failed to change society, many members also died in prison when they were old or suffered casualties when they were besieged by the Police while their organizations had disappeared into thin air long ago. I wish to tell the young people that the fight for democracy with the tactics of kidnapping and storming or the idea of escalating the movement is actually a hallucinogen that will only ruin you for the rest of your life. While you have not been dragged into a quagmire yet, you should leave these bad people as soon as possible. I hope those parents who have heard my speech today can actually, for the sake of your children, explain to the young people and try to save as many of them as possible. The journey of their lives will be really rocky if they incur any criminal record. If you have not tried your best to educate them, they will certainly blame you in the future. It will be too late to regret then.
I so submit.
SUSPENSION OF MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until 9 am tomorrow.
Suspended accordingly at 7.51 pm.