14 August, 1969.1

jThursday, 14 August, 1969.1

Mr. Lewis: The Premier would deter- (3) Yes. mine that, but in the overall picture what (4) One counter offer has been made. Is important is the amount that is spent on the assimilation of natives. That is (5) Section 47A, Public Works Act, what the Premier would take into account. provides for compensation to be determined by agreement between Mr. HARMAN: This completes my con- the parties, by an action for corn- tribution to the Address-in-Reply debate. penisation by the claimant or by I protest most strongly against a reduc- reference of the claim to the tion in the size of the native reserve. This Compensation Caurt. is a bad precedent for the Government to set. If mining operations proceed, the Government, through expediency, will 3, TRANSPORT whittle away the land reserves of the Carriage of Goods between Perth natives. and Pilbara Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr. W. A. Manning. The Hon. H. C. STRICKLAND asked House adjourned at 9.44 p.m. the Minister for Mines: Will the Minister advise If the Director General of Transport recommendation that 'as-of- right" licences be issued for carriage of goods between Perth and iaistatitwr (iuntril Pilbara terminals, will permit Thursday, the 14th August, 1969 hauliers. to pick-up loading both ways along the entire route? The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: Diver) took the Chair at 2.30 p.m.1 and Yes, if the recommendation read prayers. is implemented. QUESTIONS (8): ON NOTICE 4. MINES 1. This question was Postponed. World Prices for Minerals 2. KEWDALE DEVELOPMENT The Hon. R. H. C. STUBhBS asked AUTHORITY the Minister for Mines: Outstanding Claims (1) What is the latest world Price The Hon. W. F. WIIJLESEE asked the for- Minister for Town Planning: (a) nickel; (1) Can the Minister advise how many claims are still outstanding as a (b) cobalt; and result 'of the operations of the (c) copper? Kewdale Development Authority? (2) What rises, if any, have there (2) What are the names and addresses been In each of the previous two of the people concerned? years? (3) Have all such parties received firm offers from the Government? The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: (4) H-ave counter offers been made (1) There Is no accepted world price which differ from the Government but the U.S.A. prices may be taken valuations? as being representative and are-- (5) What is the next move available (a) 91.96 cents per lb. to the persons concerned in order (b) $1.65 per lb. to reach finalisation and settle- (c) $954 per long ton (average in ment of their outstanding claims? May, 1969). The Hlon. L, A. LOGAN replied: (2) The prices during the past two (I) Five. years varied as follows- (2) (a) R. J. and Mrs. 3. 1. Coles, Nickel-from 76.12 cents on the 8 Todd Avenue, Como. 1st August, 1967 to 83.93 (b) J. Daijac, 23 La Page Street, cents per lb. on the Ist Belmont. August, 1968. (c) J. V. Reagan, c/o Keall Cobalt-from $1.65 on the 1st Stables & Brinsden, Solicitors, August, 1907 to $1,71 Per lb. Perth. on the 1st August, 1968. (d) 0. L. and Mrs. 0. 1. Schruth. Copper prices varied from day M. M. V. Qoran-All of 890 to day but the average Beaufort Street, Mount Law- monthly prices ranged from ley. $820 per long ton In August, Ce) G. Calabrese, 34 Norman 1967 to a peak average of Street, Bentley. $1,130 in March, 1968. 290 [COUNCaI.

These prices are the latest pub- (2) Is the C.S.I.R.O. carrying out any lished by the Bureau of Mineral research into the burning be- Resources and have been con- haviour of children's clothing, verted to Australian currency. particularly night-attire fabrics? 5. CHIROPRACTORS ACT (3) Is it intended to carry out any publicity campaign in Western Whether Breaches Committed Australia regarding this matter, The Hon. CLIVE ORIFFITHS asked with particular emphasis on public the Minister for Health: education for child safety? (1) Does the Minister consider that The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: any breaches of the Chiropractors Act have been committed by any (1) No. person whose name appears on (2) Some research has been carried page 82 of the pink pages of the out but results have not been of 1969 telephone directory under the a nature to clearly define relative heading of "Chiropractors"? flammability of specific materials. (2) If the answer to (1) is "Yes", A recent conference of State Min- isters for Labour agreed to request would the Minister indicate- the C.S.I.R.O. to carry out further (a) which persons have commit- research. ted an off ence, and what Is the offence; and (3) Yes. Discussions on this matter have already taken Place with the (b) does he intend to instruct the Home Safety Division of the Nat- Chiropractors Board to prose- ional Safety Council. cute the offenders? The Hon. G. C. MacKIINNON replied: ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: SIXTH DAY (1) and (2). We are advised that Motion the Chiropractors Registration Board is taking action against per- Debate resumed, from the 13th August, sons who have advertised in the on the following motion by The Hon. J. pink pages of the 1969 telephone Heitman., directory in breach of the Chiro- That the following Address be pre- practors. Act. sented to His Excellency:- 6. This question was postponed. may it please Your Excellency: We, the Members of the Legisla- 7. RAILWAYS tive Council of the Parliament of Tonnagyes between Mullewa and Western Australia in Parliament II'eekatharra assembled, beg to express our loyalty to our Most Gracious The Hon. H. C. STRICKLAND asked Sovereign and to thank Your the Minister for Mines: Excellency for the Speech you What was the total tonnage of have been pleased to deliver to goods carried each way on the Parliament. Mullewa-Meekatharra railway during each of the past five THE HON. J1. G. HISLOP (Metropolitan) years? [2.42 p.m.]: I take some degree of risk The H-on. A. F. GRIFFTH replied: either to myself or to the gentlemen who Year ended the 30th June- may absorb something of my speech, with Mullewa to Meekatharra- what I1 anm about to say. The reason I Tons say that is that in the early days of mnedi- 1965 ...... 24,628 cine, medical men, after being taught 1966 ...... 29,864 their profession, would obtain a practice 1967 ...... 28,115 for one person only. This was the pro- 198 .. .. 50:427 cedure for a long time, but slowly it has 1969 36,839 become acceptable for two or three, or Meekatharra. to Mullewa- more, practitioners to join together to see 1965 ... .. 45,009 what the results would be. 1966 62,934 Some very useful organisations have 1967 109, 258 been founded, and I1am not at all jealous 1968 ...... 45,795 when I say that they have discovered 1969 _...... 74,886 certain things which will help invalids. When we get men of all grades coming 8. FLAME-PROOF CLOTHING together in this manner, willing to say Legisation, Research and Publicity what they think and to disburse their The Hon. R. H. C. STUBBS asked the knowledge, then we begin to feel that not Minister for Mines:, one single person-be it man, woman or (1) Has there been any agreement child-who is ill might be passed by. among State Ministers to legis- This situation was emphasised a few late for the production of flame- months ago. In April, the Australian Post- proof clothing? graduate Federation In Medicine held its [Thursday, 14 August, 1969.129 291

annual meeting. There were about 50 pro- I would now like to read the remarks of fessors present at the meeting and they Professor Eric Saint, who is now the Faculty discussed the sciences and medicine. In chief at the University of Queensland. He order to give the House some idea of what has written several articles on the ill- has been going on in this field, I will men- effects of alcohol, and on alcohol and tion some of the items discussed. Firstly I will deal with the Australian Medical society. He said- Association study group on medical edu- That alcoholism-or should I say cation. the widespread ill-use of alcohol-is As I said previously, there were about a public health problem of the great- 50 professors present and this study group est magnitude is scarcely deniable. started off considerable discussion which Between 10% and 20% of beds in pub- was of great help to most of us. We were lic hospitals are occupied by patients very glad to have our Professor W. B. suffering from the medical, neuro- MacDonald in the chair for most of the psychiatric, or traumatic complica- time. Professor Eric Saint was also pre- tions of pathological or ill-advised sent for some time, and so was Dr. C. C. drinking to excess. Jungfer, of Adelaide-Censor in Chief of As Dr. Bartholomew has shown us, The Australian College of General Practi- in about one-half of the inmatoes of tioners-and we all received a great our overcrowded and not too savoury amount of informal information. I do prison houses, alcohol is a principal not want to read lengthy extracts, but I or an important subsidiary influence suggest we should have a look at what in the causation of the outward mani- solme of these men said. Let me take Pro- festations of antisocial behaviour. fessor MacDonald first of all. Hie said- in general terms, this is my sub- Professor Saint went on to say- mission to the study group, In specific Dr. K. G. Jamieson's studies show terms related to Australian condi- us that 40%, of drivers involved in all tions, one can ask more direct ques- accidents have blood alcohol levels of tions. I shall not protract this work- about 0.05 gm/laO ml; in fatal acci- ing paper by asking these questions. dents, 50% of drivers have levels in I have with me, however, the draft excess of 0.1 gm/OO ml.; in single of the new medical curriculum in the vehicle fatal accidents, 80% of drivers University of Western Australia re- have levels in excess of 0.1 gm/OO lated to the preelinical years. To my ml. Furthermore, there is some evi- mind, the curriculum committee has dence derived from Californian stu~ies come forward with an excellent draft that between one-third and one-half which has given a new look to a stan- of those involved in fatal accidents in dard type Australian medical curricu- whom high blood levels of alcohol are lum. The preclinical years are now discovered are in fact confirmed al- directed to the study of man in his coholics, often with personal and environment and not to the classifi- clinical histories of past antisocial cation of plants or the Bessemer fur- behaviour. nace. Other medical schools in Australia The following is an original article from with members in this study group will The medical Journal of Australia of the also be in the process of making 12th July, 1969, and I still qluote from similar adjustments, and some have Professor Saint:- already done so. The reason for tabl- In the past 10 years, schools have ing the draft medical curriculum of accepted a limited responsibility in the University of Western Australia giving instruction designed to protect is not to demonstrate it as a model the innocents against the behavioural but as a basis for discussion on problems they are likely to encounter specific rather than on general in adolescence. It is thought that grounds for this hall-day session. The sexual promiscuity amongst the young introduction of human ecology with is on the increase, hence sex educa- its component parts into the first tion in the schools is accepted perhapsF year of the medical course, to my mind grudgingly as desirable. And in regard gives promise of effectively imple- menting the general thesis of this to the manifest dangers of exposure working paper. Medical students will to alcohol and cannabis, authorities learn to think of man in his environ- have produced for use in schools ex- ment from the beginning of their cellent pamphlets warning the young medical careers, will be able to de- of the hazards they face. How effec- velop a better scale of priorities which tive is this ad-hoe propaganda is hard can be adjusted according to differ- to Judge; we may suspect that to ent conditions, and from this back- children of stable marriages and good ground may well enter upon their families in whatever socio-economic clinical years of study with more en- class, the information given merely thusiasm, eagerness and motivation reinforces attitudes and values that than did their predecessors. are in any ease as stable as a rock. 292 202[COUNCIL.]

In the next article the Government I would like to refer to another matter appears to receive some praise, and I which was brought to these meetings par- quote- ticularly by the Australian Postgraduate Federation in April of this year. I will Institutions like Karnet in Western explain this from the front page of The Australia and others of this kind are Medical Journal of Australia dated the 5th the pioneering models. Unhappily, July, 1969, which states- there are several impediments to The behavioural sciences theoreti- rapid progress in this field of re- cally include all sciences bearing on clamation. The numbers are consider- behaviour and the list must surely be able-is it 8,000 a, year who go through large-ranging from biochemistry and the gate at Pentridge?-and State genetics to biology, psychology, socio- Governments understandably find logy and anthropology. In general difficulty in financing new capital de- velopments of this nature-schools. the term is restricted to the latter hospitals, administrative buildings group-mainly, though not ex- clusively, social sciences. Last April, stand far higher than prisons in order the Australian Postgraduate Federa- of building priority. Rehabilitation Is tion in Medicine organised a sym- successful in proportion to the num- posium on "Behavioural Sciences in ber of psychiatrists and social workers Medicine" which was held in Canberra available to do the job, and no State and was well attended by delegates in the country has a sufficiency of from most States. It was opened by personnel with which to tackle the Sir Macfarlane Burnet, and included volume of even non-alcoholic psychia- contributions by speakers represent- trio morbidity. ing human biology, phychology, an- Finally, I should like to comment on thropology and social medicine. the obvious need for the coordination Sir Macfarlane Burnet opened on the role of all the services in the community of the behavioural sciences in medicine, which are responsible for the care of and the following is his Introduction:- the alcoholic and the prevention of I think that I should like to start alcoholism. The situation at the by making a Point that I have made moment is a trifle chaotic. Almost many times before. But it seem to by chance, the alcoholic may present me that it is so important in relation in the courts and prison, in a medical to the present position of medicine *ward in a hospital, to a psychiatric that it will bear repeating. It is clinic, or to a hostel run by an order simply that about 10 years ago or sect, or he may follow a path from medical science came to the end of one to another. Within hospitals there the period in which great and effec- is need to set up alcoholic clinics: im- tive discoveries could be made by the Proved communications between the straightforward use of science at the general and the mental hospitals, in- bedside and on the experimental cluding the sharing of professional animal as a model in the laboratory. personnel, are greatly to be desired; Disease or disability resulting from the centralized storage of data about the impact of the environment on a diagnosed cases is, with computers, genetically normal or near-normal Quite feasible. Clearly it is hard to individual can usually be understood avoid the conclusion that it would be on a cause-and-effect basis and can desirable in all States to set up a be imitated often with great accuracy central coordinating committee, pre- on laboratory mammals. ferably with statutory powers under the Ministries of Health, for only by Ifwe look at Sir Macfarlane Burnet's such an administrative device will it views on this matter we will see that he ever be possible to collect and analyse indicates we must believe before we can data, to determine priorities on the really accept the position. He goes on. investment of funds and resources, to say- and to allocate funds wisely and effec- Perhaps I should say at once that tively. The creation of strong central I am desperately pessimistic abonat administrative organizations has in our prospects of applying science in the past been a secret of success in any straightforward sense to be- the overcoming of other public health havioural disease in man. I do not Problems, and alcoholism cannot be read the literature of psychiatry, but an exception to a general rule. I do read widely enough to be aware when something important in that I believe that if our professors give lec- field is being commented on in Nature tures of that character we will soon make or The Lancet. an impression on the youth of the country. The important discoveries that have We may have to work to a date and estab- interested me have, in fact, come from lish an institution which could really be of the laboratories, but none of them tremendous service to the community. have been of any particular help in [Thursday, 14 August, 1969.1 2939

the prevention or cure of mental aspect, because only by team work in disease. The association of mbongo- the community, as now is necessary lism with trisomy of chromosome 21, for success at bedside or bench, will the physical and behavioural anomal- the maximum progress be made and lies of XO, XXY and XYY individuals. the delivery gap I have already men- have been fascinating to read about, tioned, be eliminated. but there has been no practical out- Now we come to the work of Clifford come. in a thousands years, maybe, Jungfer, who came over here at our request infants in their first days of life will to make a survey of Western Australia. be karyotyped, and those for whom His survey was a very good one, although the hand of the potter shook too probably it did not cover the whole of the clumsily will be excused from further State. However, from it we learnt what misery-but not in this century. we might be able to achieve. He said- He goes on to say that he believes it will As long ago as 1926, Frederic Wood be a very long time before we make any Jones first gave warning of -what was headway in this direction. happening to medical education in Professor Basil Hetzel, of Monash Uni- this country. in his Listerian oration versity, Melbourne, had some very interest- in Adelaide, he pointed out in plain ing comments to make and one would terms: need to have some time to study what he There are two factors under- had to say. He said- lying the whole of medicine:. The doctor's field will vary accord- there is the knowledge of the ing to his age. Doctors who have physical and chemical reactions graduated from Australian medical of the constituent parts of the schools before the war have a very human body under varying nor- different background from those who mal and pathological conditions: have graduated since, and it is common and there is the knowledge of the for more recent graduates to be re- patient as a human individual In garded as incompetent by their elders. some phase of ease or disease. The pressures on the curriculum are the one factor absorbs almost all familiar to all of us, but recent our activities of research and of graduates tend to be regarded as well teaching; the other is in great trained in medical science but quite danger of complete neglect. incompetent as practical doctors in- cluding incompetence in the field of Then he used certain remarks of Ward personal relations. Darley which were as follows:- The continuing care of health must However, looking beyond this, a replace that of the episodic care of doctor's attitude to his patient Is very illness; and as a consequence in the much affected by his membership of education of the physician, emphasis the medical profession, with a middle- must shift away from the patient op class professional ethos. it Is affected his back to the individual on his feet by his involvement with some special and from the patient in the hospital medical group, ranging from a to the individual in his home and specialist College to a subspeciality community . , . These challenges within medicine. cannot be fully met unless the teach- I think at this stage It would be appropri- ing activity can be extended beyond ate to refer to some further remarks by the physical limits of the institution Sir Macfarlane Burnet, and possibly -into the places where people work Clifford Jungfer. Some of the remarks are and live-where people stay well andi rather difficult to follow but they are get sick. certainly evidence of what can be done. The conditions that Dr. Jungfer found all I have studied the remarks of Professor over Australia were rather remarkable and MacDonald, Professor Eric Saint, and he submitted certain suggestions, as Professor i. R. Andrew who was the Dean follows- of Medicine at the Monash University. Firstly, the practical teaching of The last named made some extremely good community medicine must be based contributions. He said- in the community with the focal I have, I think, given evidence that points in teaching general practices. professionally orientated groups are These practices should be actually well suited to their tasks in medical serving the community. They should education programmes. But I have be recognised by the university. Cri- barely touched on the other groups teria for recognition should Include a who could contribute-politicians, practice audit as to type and scope. socio-economic constellations, even~ At least one practitioner in the prac- Royal Commissions and, the least tice should have been given instruc- considered, the citizen for whom this tion in teaching methods. The stan- complex and remarkable organisation dard of service must be acceptable. of art and science is designed to serve. Evaluation of the teaching given must I hope that others will discuss this be built-In. 294 294[COUNCIL.]

Secondly, the student must be in- hand and much more prominently in the volved in the day-to-day work of the news at the moment-namely, our own practice and given supervised respon- domestic agricultural situation in Western sibility for conducting aspects of Australia. patient care peculiar to general prac- To refer to the question of Common- tice. wealth and State financial relations, I have Thirdly, as domiciliary teams be- selected one particular topic for some ex- come part of the pattern of general amination, and that is that part in relation Practice, the student must he accept- to the national or public debt. This in my ed as an integral member of the team. experience can be a rather fearful sort of subject. it is fearful in the first instance Fourthly, the student should be on an examination of the figures to find given a practical working knowledge almost incomprehensible matters men - of the statutory and voluntary agen- tioned under this heading of the national cies concerned with patient care in or public debt in Australia. the practice area. I felt it needed some examination firstly Fitfthly, the emphasis In teaching because from time to time we hear refer- must be placed on definite diagnosis, ences to what are loosely called unsatisfac- balanced treatment and the possibility tory arrangements between the Common- of preventing disease or further disa- wealth and the States In relation to bility. finances. Also it is frequently argued that one of the very great difficulties in the My purpose has been to stress that operation of government in this State, and the needs of the community can only of private enterprise, is the relative un- be met when proper attention is given availability of loan funds. We must bear in to community medicine in the design mind also that members in this House do of curricula. not have the opportunities members in I think that I have said quite enough on another place are afforded to examine the the reconstruction of medical education. financial statements of Western Australia. However, I would like to ask if there are Therefore, as a Federal Budget has been any members who would anticipate form- Introduced within the last few days I being themselves into a committee to study lieve it may not be an inappropriate documents of this sort at various times? moment to direct some attention to this aspect. Unless the alcoholics are prepared to I have selected the three years of 1966 submit themselves for a full examination, to 1068 inclusive. I have not done this this subject will not be placed before the necessarily because they are the latest student and the professor. In America years but because I have had to make a number of places exist where a com- numerous references to different docu- plete investigation can be made of these ments, both Commonwealth and State, and individuals. The bill might possibly be I have selected those years for consistency $250 to $300 for each case. America has in the figures I have used in the examina- the money, of course, and we do not have tion of the national debt. I say the national it. Nevertheless, sooner or later we must debt because this is the debt borne by Aus- establish centres 'where these people can tralia as a whole, and it Contains the Com- undergo a full examination. monwealth figure together with a figure If anyone requires some assistance on for the States collectively. this matter, I would be only too pleased to The figure for 1966 was $10,500,000,000 help. Perhaps four or five of us could increasing to $11,900,000,000 in 1968. These band ourselves into a small committee to might sound very frightening figures, but study exactly what is required. If this they do not frighten me and need not could be done, we would possibly be one necessarily frighten anyone else just be- of the first committees to accept the in- cause they are large or represent a debt. formation which has been supplied in the It must be remembered that the greater last few weeks. part of the debt is cardied within Australia. In other words, it is an Australian debt, borne by Australians, and carried by Aus- THE HON. N. McNEILL (Lower West) tralis, and of which Australians are the [3.15 p.m.]: This afternoon I propose to recipients in terms of redemption and in- give some thought to and to make some terest payments. observations on three particular matters, all of which I believe are of real interest To break this figure down into the to members in this House. The three items Federal figure, the figure for the States to which I1will refer and devote some time collectively, and the figure for Western are, firstly, a Particular aspect of Com- Australia, we get the following:- monwealth and State fiancial relations; 2966 1967 1965 secondly, an examination of one particular aspect, or perhaps more than one parti- Federal S.100,000,000 3.300,000,000 3,600.000.000 cular aspect of the situation in relation States to probate, both Commonwealth and State:, collectively 7.400,00)0,0%0 7,900.000.000 8.300,000,000 and, thirdly, it is my intention to make Western observations on something much closer to Australia 705,500,000 748,600.000 792,900,000 [Tursday. 14 August, 1969.] 295

As members will see, over that two-year collectively had increased by $46 per head; Period from the 30th June, 1966, to the and the share for Western Australia had 30th June, 1968, the increase in the Fed- increased by $55 per head. eral amount was $450,000,000; the in- These figures, in themselves, indicate a crease for the States collectively was fair trend in this matter of Commonwealth $840,000,000; and the increase for Western and State finance. However, it is logical Australia was $87,000,000. to extend this one step further and to Perhaps I should say that the figures I look at the annual charges in this respect; am using are taken, in the main, from namely, the interest bill. Members may the appropriate Pages of Australia in have noticed that I have made no refer- Facts and Figures as issued by the Auis- ence to the sinking fund contribution or tralian News and Information Bureau to particular loan redemptions that may under the auspices of the Department of take place within any annual period. I the Interior. The booklet numbers In consider that this omission does not spoil question are Nos. 91, 95, and 99. Also , T the essence of the argument. In fact, had am making some reference to the Western they been included, I feel they would Australian Year Book for 1969 issued by probably have added to, or further gar- the Commonwealth Statistician, and the nished, the story I am endeavouring to Auditor-General's report for Western tell. Australia for the year ended the 30th I point out that interest payments are June, 1968. made over an annual period; for example, I would like to break down the figures 1965-66, 1966-67, and 1967-68 and are not I gave to the House a moment ago. I something which are just paid on the 30th think it is advisable to break down the June of each year. I am sure this fact is increase in the Public debt for the various well appreciated by members of this authorities into the public debt per head House. of Population. If we look at the interest burden we see In 1966, the national figure. which is that in 1966 nationally it represented the overall total, was $919. The average $474,200,000; in 1967, $509,100,000; and in figure for the States was $655, and that 1968, $546,500,000. Consequently it will for Western Australia was $831. In 1968 be seen that there is an increase in actual these amounts had increased to a national interest charges of $72,000,000 in those figure of $990 per head; the average for three years. the States had increased to $701 per Although It may appear to complicate head; and the figure for Western Aus- the situation further, I think it is tralia had increased to $886. Over that relevant to break these figures down into Period the national increase was $72 per something which is more appropriate to head; the increase for the States collect- each individual person in the community: ively was $46 per head; and the increase namely, to a Tier head of population rate. for Western Australia was $55 per head. Further. I think it is relevant to break the national figure down into the cate- It may be of interest to indicate that I have compared the Western Australian gories of the Commonwealth's share, the figures for 1966, 1967, and 1968 of $831, share of the States collectively, and the $854, and $886 respectively with the share of Western Australia. On such a equivalent figures for Victoria over the breakdown we see that in 1966 the Corn- same Period and they were $543, $553, and mnonwealth's share of interest burden was $600 respectively Per head of population. $122,000,000; the share of the States collectively was $352,000,000; and the share I have referred to the national figures of Western Australia was $32.000,000. being the total of all. What I think is These figures increased through 1967 and Perhaps more appropriate to my exam- again in 1968 to $144,000,000 for the Comn- ination is the Commonwealth's share of the nionwealtb's share: $402,200,000 for the public debt and its per head of population States collectively: and $36,000,000 for rate. The Commonwealth's share in 1966 Western Australia. They represent in- was $3,100,000,000 which increased in 1968 creases in the relevant categories of to $3,600,000,000. Incidentally, I have re- $22,000.000 for the Commnonwvealth; ferred to these figures previously. These $50.000,000 f or the States; and $4,000,000 amounts actually represent $272 per head for Western Australia. of Population in 1966 compared with $655 for the States collectively, and $831 for Once again, this particular interest bill Western Australia. In 1967 they represent appears to be heavy in relation to the $277 per head of population compared States. However, in line with my com- with $683 for the States collectively, and ments a few moments ago, let us bring $854 for Western Australia. In 1968 they the calculations back to an individual represent $300 Per head of Population basis to see what the figures mean to each compared with $701 for the States col- one of us in this country, and particularly lectively, and $886 for Western Australia. in this State. Remembering that the In that period the Commonwealth's share figure for 1966 was $122,000,000, we find per head of population had increased by that the Commonwealth's share repre- $28 Per head; the share of the States sents $10.60 per head of population; for 296 296COIUNCIL)

the States collectively it represents $30.78, the People within those States, with and for Western Australia, $36. In 1961 emphasis on the people in thesmle the Commonwealth's share was $10.90 per States. head of population; the share of the It is apparent from literature and re- States collectively was $32.70; and the cords that Tasmania-the smallest State share of Western Australia was $38. In of all-and Western Australia bear a much 1968 the Commonwealth's share was $12 greater share of this burden than do the per head of population; the share for the other States or the Commonwealth. In States collectively was $33.90; and that saying that, we all appreciate that for Western Australia was $40.40. These although Western Australia is one of the figures represent increases of $1.40 in the smaller States in terms of population, and Commonwealth's share per head of taxing population particularly, it is the population; $3.20 in the share of the State that has the greatest basic develop- States collectively; and $4 per head of mental needs, and it is on these develop- population in Western Australia. mental sectors that the great burden of the loan raisings has fallen. I consider these figures are quite significant and surely indicate to us just what Another point I wish to make Is in re- is, in fact, happening. This is more ap- gard to the practice of the Commonwealth parent if we relate at various times of applying the matching the figures to the tax- principle.' That Is, the Commonwealth, at ing powers of the relevant Governments various times, requires the States to in Australia. match any money it advances with a It is quite true, as I have said and as similar amount. Quite frequently, of is frequently claimed, that there is a, course, the States do not have the re- shortage of loan funds. In fact, loan venue available adequately to match the funds are one of the things of which we money advanced by the Commonwealth are most in need. There is not only a and they have been forced into a situation shortage in the actual total of loan funds, where it is necessary for them to make which, after all, are apportioned by the loan raisings to match these contributions Loan Council of the Commonwealth and by the Commonwealth. Once again this is the States, but they are also becoming in- throwing an additional burden on the loan creasingly expensive to the various States. fund ralsings by the respective States. They are becoming expensive both in total I consider it is necessary to make some and, in fact, in the Individual charges on examination of this practice, because It the population. has been my experience that it is an aspect of the country's finances that Is If nothing else, I am sure that this kind given insufficient examination, especially of examination would Provide some basis when we take some pride in the fact that for a rearrangement or a review of the the Government of Western Australia in Present financial arrangements between recent times so often makes announce- the Commonwealth and the State. Cer- ments pointing out that Western Australia tainly it would seem to Indicate that the is the greatest or the best. Recently, of Commonwealth, with its far greater taxing course, we have had the greatest Increase power, would have the best opportunity of in population, the greatest intake of all the Governments in Australia to migrants, the greatest mineral develop- finance so many of Its projects simply ment, and so on. However, the f act that from its own revenue. interests me is that Western Australia is also increasing its loan commitments and It occurs to me that because of the in- thus increasing the burden on every indi- fluences which Governments are virtually vidual within this State as a result of forced to accept-and this points up the such loan commitments. I think this is Influence that has been applied to previous one development we could well do without. Premiers-the States are placed in the Whilst I am not Opposed to loan rais- position of having insufficient taxing ings-I Power which denies them the opportunity think it is the only logical way to to finance their own projects from revenue. raise money-I think a better balance There is no doubt that the States do not could be effected In respect of the Com- have available to them the same amount monwealth contributions to the loan fund. of funds that are available to the Com- In other words, surely there is a case for monwealth. Western Australia to obtain a greater share of the taxing powers which are at I believe the States are burdened with present available to the Commonwealth in a responsibility that is too heavy; that is, order that its commitments, in terms of the responsibility of having to finance loans, may not reach what may be re- public Projects, and this necessitates the garded as a dangerous level. I am sure States making an increase in loan rais- some people subscribe to the view that it ings. It is clear, too, that the burden of is quite in order to take on large and the contributions that must be made to onerous loan commitments, but can we the interest and sinking fund falls very always be sure that that kind of money unevenly on the various States, and not is available to us in Australia? If It is only does it fall unevenly on the States not, we may have to make approaches out- themselves, but it also falls unevenly on side Australia for the purpose of making [Thursday, 14 August, 1969.3 loan raisings. Would this also be in our Commonwealth estate duty totalled favour? These are some of the questions $41,500,000 out of a total taxation revenue that need to be answered and which need of $4,413,000,000. This represents approxi- further examination. mately 1 per cent. of the total taxation. I submit those points simply for exami- Of the total Federal tax collections In ination by members of this House and Western Australia for 1966-67-which hope that my suggestions will make some amounted to $279,700,000-estate duty sort of contribution towards taking steps yielded only $2,600,000. One might assume to have more finance made available to that, with the concession intended to be Western Australia, and also to the other allowed as a result of the last Budget States of the Commonwealth. Some statement, these collections could, per- States have had considerable trouble with haps, be less in the future. their financing arrangements and in esti- mating the demands of the public in re- I now compare those figures with the spect of Government works and Govern- situation domestically in Western Aus- ment undertakings. tralia in respect of our own probate, death, and succession duties. In 1966-67 I pass now to the subject of probate. these duties in Western Australia In doing so, I am very pleased to note amounted to $4,800,000 out of a total State that in the Budget presented in the House taxation revenue of $27,800,000. Of the of Rcpresentatives by the Commonwealth moneys paid into the Consolidated Treasurer (Mr. McMahon) reference was Revenue Fund, Probate and succession made in the speech to the fact that, when duties were second only to stamp duty in enabling legislation is introduced, there terms of the amount per head of popula- will be a lessening of some of the burden tion. So I claim there is a very strong carried by a particular group in our com- and a very compelling reason why, firstly, munity. I refer firstly to the intention of the Commonwealth should be Prepared to the Commonwealth Government to in- vacate this field of taxation and trans- erease by 20 per cent. the exemption limit fer it to the State-in other words, to on rural property where the probate values yield a portion of its taxation powers to do not exceed $250,000. Another import- the State-and, secondly, that the State ant consideration referred to in the Bud- Treasurer-perhaps this is not my main get speech was the removal of the statu- point, but it is an important one-should tory limit of two years: that is, what I be prepared to follow the lead which has might call, "the time to pay." In other been given by the Federal Treasurer by words, I understand from a, reading of the allowing similar or extended concessions. Budget speech that the period of two years will now be lifted and in the future will There are some compelling reasons, and no longer apply. I would like to indicate what I believe to be several of them. The first is in res- All these factors have been the subject pect of land values and the very rapidly of very strong and detailed representations increasing valuations which have been by the Liberal Party, end more particu- applied not only to rural land, although at larly by the rural division of the Liberal this stage I elect to deal with rural land. Party. Therefore, for obvious reasons, it These high land values are established by gives me much satisfaction to learn that purchasers who are not necessarily con- the commonwealth Treasurer has recog7- cerned 'with productivity or yield; and they nised his promise. This announcement are therefore not necessarily values which has also served the purpose of illustrating are determined by productivity or -yield. that some views expressed in regard to often we find-perhaps not in the main, the Liberal Party having contrary ideas and I cannot support what I am saying are completely unfounded, because the with statistical facts--these land values Liberal Party has a very real interest in are established by purchasers who wvish the reduction of probate duties wherever to take advantage of certain concessions possible. under the income tax laws. There are some other points I would like The second reason is that the avoidance to put forward which have been, and still and the mitigation of probate duties on are being, discussed by the rural properties are not infrequently-and not division of the Liberal Party. Firstly, there without difficulty-arranged domestically is a case for the Commonwealth to vacate within the family situation. inasmuch completely the field of estate duty. I have as these duties may be arranged domestic- made reference to this in my remarks in ally, and certainly inasmuch as the relation. to the national debt and the tax- arrangements may be costly to implement, ing powers of the Commonwealth. I wish they certainly add an additional cost to make the point that surely the collec- burden on the farming operation. tion of estate duty does not represent a significant tax to the Commonwealth. in The third reason is that, as I see it, the regard to this I make some reference death duties-in whatever form they again to the booklet titled, Australia In might be-undoubtedly contribute to a Facts and Figures. On page 12 of that breaking down of the family farm situa- booklet it indicates that in 1966-67 the tion. Zn so doing an adjustment can be (11) 298 298[COUNCIL.) made in two ways, or perhaps in more have been given in this House-so I will than two ways; but both of the first two confiiw- myself to just some passing refer- ways I consider to be undesirable. ences to the situation which I consider to Firstly, there may well be a reduction be the more serious; and that is in rela- in the farm size-a reduction which may tion to water supplies. reduce a property to an uneconomic level, or to such a size that it can no longer We have been very fortunate indeed for support a family unit. It has an effect of. a good number of years in Western Aus- perhaps, driving the people concerned tralia, as we have been blessed, generally from the property and even out of the speaking, with good seasons. This is not rural areas completely. the position overall, because there are some places which have suffered either Secondly, such a situation may well through unduly wet conditions or as a facilitate the incorporation of these pro- result of disease in various parts of our perties into much larger enterprises. crop growing areas. However, in the main, Surely if that were to happen it would be they have been good years. in complete opposition and quite contrary to what I have always understood to be I suppose one can be led into a belief the fundamental purpose of probate and and thus tend to forget that in this succession duties. country-and I understand it to be the driest continent There is a third possibility; that is, in the world-a drought the beneficiaries of such properties may could be just around the corner. be able to keep their heads above the Whilst we appreciate that a compre- water and retain the properties by virtue hensive water supply scheme, with its of obtaining greater financial accommo- modifications, is a wonderful one, we must dation from the banks and financial in- realise that in the drier and inland areas stitutions. This might be effective if the financial accommodation was available; the comprehensive scheme, inasmuch as it but even if it was effective it would cer- is a reticulation scheme, could in times of tainly add a greatly increased burden to severe drought, perhaps dwindle away to those properties, and would once again nothing more than a trickle of water. This contribute to the features I have men- is something we hope will never happen, tioned-what I regard to be an unneces- but this season does give us an indication sary cost burden on the properties, and that we must not forget it is something ultimately this may be the cause of the that could happen. I would say that the families being split up and the properties present situation must remind us that passing into other hands, and frequently there is a need for the individual, as well into larger units. as for Governments, to conserve water Sitting suspended from 3.46 to 4.1 p.mn. wherever it falls, Certainly this would apply in the populated livestock areas. In The Hon. N. McNEILL: I would now like other words, just because we have a com- to refer, for just a few moments, to the prehensive water scheme is not a reason situation as I have seen it in recent times in itself for us to discontinue water con- of some of the agricultural areas in West- servation. em Australia. During the month of July some members of the Liberal Party's rural I instance the key darn scheme, for committee, together with myself, toured which I believe my colleague, Jack H-eit- some of the agricultural areas from North- man, can take a great deal of credit. ampton to Esperance. We did this mainly However, in my view, this is worthy of far to give us an ample opportunity to observe greater extension both in and outside the and discuss the situation which is arising comprehensive water supply scheme area. in relation to two particular problems; namely, seasonal conditions, and the Despite the drought and semi-drought wheat situation which has arisen as a conditions which prevail at this moment result of the introduction of a quota in some of our areas, I did form one scheme. strong impression from the trip we made As a general comment, I would say that which is useful to me on this occasion, this tour or trip did, in fact, give us the because we visited areas that we had not opportunity to gain a very valuable seen for a number of years. one was able experience indeed. I am pleased that hav- to obtain a picture of the areas as a whole: ing made the trip and having conveyed and the first impression I gained was Of some observations to the Government, I the very high standard of farming opera- have been able to note that the Govern- tions which are being conducted through- ment has been prepared to anticipate, or out our agricultural districts. I think it certainly to make some genuine endeavours is a standard or level of which the farmers to anticipate what might well be a serious themselves can be very proud, and also situation in some of our livestock and something of which the State as a whole wheatgrowing areas. can be proud. This matter has been well aired in the In addition, one is left with a very con- Press-and certainly appropriate com- vincing impression as to the efficency of ments have been made and descriptions the farming operations which are being [Tursday. 14 August, 1969.) 299 conducted despite problems and difficul- So I would like to think that in any ties. I say that quite deliberately, as one examination of the implications of seas- with knowledge and experience of the onal conditions and the situation which farming areas; and I say it also because may arise over restricted deliveries. It will all too frequently we hear the charge be borne in mind there is going to be a made, or the question asked as to greatly reduced income in our farming whether our farmers are efficient to a areas. There is a need for a special group point where they can maintain their to examine these implications. I would Position in this highly competitive world not go so far as to nominate what the -in this world where produce surpluses special group should be, but it should cer- seem to be heaping upon us, left, right, tainly be expert in its contacts and its and centre. There is this great efficiency; affiliations with all related institutions, and it is an efficiency which I believe we not the least of which would be the finan- should extol rather than decry. cial and banking institutions. A great deal of tolerance must be exercised and This leads me to express great con- a great deal more understanding exercised fidence in Western Australia's agricultural and implemented in dealing with these industries; and it is my belief they are problems. basically sound, despite the difficulties and We have not simply got the case of the despite the fact that there is a necessity, new-land farmer-the person who will as well as a desirability, to provide assist- suffer in particular as a result of a re- ance in one form or another at Govern- duction of wheat quotas. We must go ment level. However, our agricultural further than this in the examination of industries are essentially sound. the problem. As members of Parliament In my view the agricultural industry is we certainly cannot write these people off so mature that with a degree of under- because they are individuals and, to us, standing on the part of people, and on the everyone is an important person. So we part of the Government, and without the must be prepared to take note of the need elements of panic and despair which do for a proper examination of the situation arise from time to time, it can adjust to see whether the effects of these related Itself despite all of its present-day prob- conditions can be minimised or, in some lems. It cannot do this alone, but it can cases, mitigated. play a great part in adjusting to some of I conclude on the note that I believe these problems and still manage to survive there Is a responsibility on government in in a most satisfactory fashion and at a this sphere. While I do not mean to mini- satisfactory level. I realise it may not be mise or to suggest there is any lessened easy to achieve this. To these problems responsibility on the part of individuals we must all devote a great deal of study. or lessened responsibility on the part of I say this not only from the point of view industry as a whole, the fact is there is of the good of the individual; I am talk- still a responsibility on government to ing in terms of the good of the economy bring together all those people who have of Western Australia and Australia-that an interest-in some cases, a vested in- part of it which gains its subscription from terest-in the continuation of a profitable the enterprise of our farming industries. industry at a satisfactory level of operation. The problem is not an easy one. We have, firstly, the implications of seasonal It is my hope that the Government will conditions; and, secondly, the situation give attention to the problems I have which has arisen in relation to wheat and mentioned. I regret to say that at this Produce surpluses. I do not refer simply stage of our history of development, it is to the effect this will have on a farmer tragic that we in Western Australia are today, or how he will arrange his own faced with a curtailment or restriction of domestic requirements, but more particu- anything at all. larly to the fact that it has implications The effects are felt in so many diverse in it which must be watched. directions. The fact is this is the situation we are faced with and this is the By way of example, there is the impact situation which, I believe, we can over- these conditions will have on financial come. It will need the right sort of institutions, machinery firms, and more attitude because it is a situation which particularly. I suppose, on the entire social must be faced with nothing but the best. life of the country towns--the centres of I would like to conclude with the hope these areas, On the introduction of a that the industry, as well as the Govern- wheat quota scheme, a person may be ment, will devote some thought to these given a quota of, say, 5,000 or 10,000 suggestions. bushels of wheat. This may or may not be adequate for his purposes, but what- Debate adjourned, on motion by The ever it does to him, it will certainly have Hon. F. Rt. H. Lavery. its repercussions on the local community, House adjiourned at 4.16 pa. and right down the line. Its effects will even be felt in the industrial world, and in the metropolitan industrial world, too.