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Unrevised Hansard National Assembly Tuesday, 4 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 1 TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL AASEMBLY ____ The House met at 14:02 The House Chairperson, Ms M G Boroto, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me first welcome our guests in the gallery, more especially the international anti- apartheid activists from Belgium, who took part in the arms struggle. Amongst them is Helene Passtoors, who spent several years in prison. You can stand, ma’am! [Applause.] Thank you. Also, amongst them is, Guido Van Hecken and Nora Bogart [Applause.] Thank you very much. You are welcome in Parliament UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 2 of the Republic of South Africa. I will now ask the secretary to read the first order of the day. Mr M WATERS: Chairperson. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Yes hon Waters. Mr M WATERS: May I address you in accordance with Rule 2(10) that has to do with the programming committee and decisions of the programming committee, please. According to Rule 2(10)(1) it states that the decisions are taken in the programming committee by consensus. When we last had a programming meeting two weeks ago, there was consensus on the programme and since then, there have been substantive changes to the programme. I wrote to hon Bhengu on Monday morning reflecting about these changes and our discussion about the changes without being consulted. If you look at the programme for what was agreed at the programming committee to today, this week’s programme, there are 31 changes that have been made without any consultation with UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 3 the official opposition. I cannot talk for other opposition parties. Items have been removed from the programme; entirely, items have been inserted to the programme and items have been moved from one day to the other, about 31 changes this week. I put to you Chair, this is not a tweaking of the programme; this is expropriation without consultation of the programme. [Applause.] Now, if you look at the digest of rulings, if I may quote from them, Chair, on 13 February 1998, when a member protested against the Majority Party’s failure to consult with the Whips of the minority party before making changes to the sitting time of the House, the Speaker, Dr Ginwala stated that, the programme of Parliament including its time is set at a committee on Thursday mornings, namely, the programming committee. Any changes thereafter, are supposed to be by consultation between the Whips. That should have been done, if it was not done, then that was an error. I think that the Majority Party UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 4 needs to take an account of that. I trust that the Majority Party and all the Whips will cooperate in this regard in future. Chair, I put it to you that there was no consultation, and I would like to get a ruling from you as to whether this programme that we have today, tomorrow and Thursday is procedurally correct. Before we continue, we need that ruling. Thank you very much. [Applause.] The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, the colleague is correct that indeed there should be consultations, if there are any movements on the agenda, and indeed, that was done. The programme was posted to all the Whips on Friday, indicating the changes that we are talking about. Now, if the colleagues were not happy with any of these items, they would have so indicated. But nobody came to the programming Whip, indicating displeasure with the movement. But we can also indicate to you, House Chair, that in fact the programmes that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 5 they say are changed, all that has happened is move some items from tomorrow’s programme to today’s programme. That is what was then given to today’s programme and that is what was then given to all our colleagues on Friday. Had they indicated any displeasure with those movements, indeed, I would have personally come to them so that we have a discussion. We never got an impression that what they have stated are difficulties. We know that the colleagues have been communicating with the programming Whip on the movement of items from tomorrow’s sitting to today’s sitting. At any rate, all the items that are here, House Chair, qualifies to be here. There were Announcements, Tablings and Committee, ATC, reports on them; they were below the line and all of them are indeed matters that are before this Parliament. So, there is nobody, who would say that we have grabbed the matter that was not below the line. All the matters that are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 6 here are before this Parliament, and nobody can find fault with these matters being debated in this House, unless colleagues are grandstanding. Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, I stand to confirm that we were indeed consulted. Since Thursday, there have been approaches made by the Whip of the programming from the ANC, and subsequent to that, the order paper which is now here in front of us, was circulated on Friday. We can confirm what we know. [Applause.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Thank you. Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, may I address you? The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Yes, hon Waters. Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, it’s nice to know that certain parties were consulted while others weren’t. Also, sending a final programme out on a Friday afternoon is not consultation, quite frankly. Firstly, it’s not a draft programme; it was a final UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 7 programme that was sent on Friday afternoon. Secondly, I did write to hon Bhengu on Monday morning, I did, stating our objections to the new programme. [Interjections.] Yes, there are 31 changes, Chief Whip, 31, not one, and it’s irrelevant if the items are below the line. Obviously, they are all before Parliament ... [Interjections.] The programming committee must decide on the programme. There can’t be an ad hoc basis on consulting on certain parties and not others. So, I would like a ruling from you, Chair, on this matter. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): Okay, thank you. Hon members, from what I get from those who spoke is that, indeed, there was consultation made although the DA says ... [Interjections.] I’m still speaking. The DA says that they were not consulted. Therefore, I would like maybe the Chief Whip of the Majority Party should talk outside this House now. But we will continue with the programme of today, because one thing I know is that, for instance, the first item that we are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 8 dealing with now, was provisionally agreed to, pending the court case. Hence, it has been brought to the House for discussion today. So, let’s continue doing that. The only advice I can give is that, since you talk about consultation, I allow the DA to talk with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party outside the House to discuss this matter further. Thank you very much. I will now continue with the secretary reading the first order. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF CONSTITUTIONAL REVIEW COMMITTEE ON REVIEW OF SECTION 25 OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1996 Mr M S A MAILA: Hon House Chair, hon members, guests in the gallery, South Africans from all walks of life, good afternoon. During his state of the nation address, President Cyril Ramaphosa made a call for the acceleration of land redistribution programme in order to, amongst others, correct the original sin of land dispossession. We meet here today 10 long months after this House gave the Constitutional Review UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 9 Committee the mandate to review section 25 of the Constitution and other clauses where necessary, to make it possible for the state to expropriate land in the public interest without compensation, and propose the necessary constitutional amendments where necessary. In doing so the committee was expected to engage in a public participation process in order to get the views of all stakeholders about the necessity of, and mechanisms for expropriating land without compensation. From the outset it should be clarified that this House did not give the committee a mandate to conduct a referendum. As a result, anyone who makes an overemphasis on numbers will be grossly out of order. The committee adopted various forms of public participation which included public hearings, written submissions and oral submissions. It should be understood that there was no form of public participation which carried any weight above the other. It should also be noted that the public participation process that followed is unprecedented in the history of our democracy. As a precursor, the committee hosted a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TUESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 10 preparatory colloquium which laid a foundation for members to engage with inputs from members of the public meaningfully. I will deal with each form of public participation as it was engaged by the committee starting with the contentious written submissions. Advertisements were put in national and local newspapers calling for members of the public to make submissions on the necessity of, and mechanisms for expropriating land in the public interest without compensation or the contrary thereof.
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