Apter 27 February 1991 Transcript
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United Nations Oral History Project David Apter 27 February 1991 J(j0" i II1 Itt'I c)t·.J I , ~I YUN TAPE PROFESSOR DAVID APTER YALE UNIVERSITY FEBRUARY 27, 1991 INTERVIEWER: SUTTERLIN TABLE OF CONTENTS I. The Congo Conditions before Independence 1-2, 8-9, 17-19 Leading Personalities 2-7, 9-13 Conor Cruise O'Brien 14-16 American African Policy 19-22 II. Ghana Volta Development Plan 22-24 Robert Gardiner 24-25 YONYUN TAPTAPEE PROFESSOR DAVID APTEAPTERR YALE UNIVERSITUNIVERSITYY FEBRUARY 27, 19919911 INTERVIEWER: SUTTERLISUTTERLINN JSJSSS Professor Apter, I want first to express appreciation for your willingness to participate in this Yale oral history project on the United Nations. And, if I might, I would like first to ask you to indicate your connection with the Congo. What were you doing in the Congo during the period of the crisis there in the '60s. DA I had made several trips to the Congo under various auspices, mainly to interview people. My first interest was to contrast the slow pace of evolution towards political autonomy in the Congo as compared with countries I had been working with and in which I was interested, mainly Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire namely. I also spent some time in Kenya and Tanzania. My first field work had been in Ghana, (originally Gold Coast). I was interest in the problem of the transition from dependence to independence via mass nationalist movements in Which the procedure in effect was to channel nationalism and the mobilization of support into increasingly enlarged and more representative bodies, by means of voting and electoral methods. The expansion of the franchise, and the transformation of legislative bodies from nonrepresentative.... to increasingly representative, and then essentially 1 parliamentary bodies with cabinet responsibility, parliamentary accountability, and effective internal self government marked thethe last step before power was finally transferred. And that was one way or another the procedure in virtually all British African countries within the commonwealth framework. Something very different, perhaps less effectively, was followed in French Africa. But in both cases the process was accompanied by thethe clear recognition that crucial to success was the of people with diverse interests, on the one hand, and education and especially the expansion of higher education. One of thethe things that struck me in the Congo was the attempt to prevent nationalism by holding back on any kind of higher education. Indeed education was minimized, although the Belgian authorities did vary the extent of educational reform according to different provinces on the theorytheory that you had to raise up the level of a whole group of people within a province or ethnic group rather not piecemeal. But there was very little progress. There were hardly any skilled or trained people, very fewfew doctors, and so on. So one of my more particular interests was to see who were the Conglese nationalist leaders. II wanted to meet and interviewinterview themthem before independence,independence, comparing themthem with their counterparts in French speaking and English speaking Africa. II also tried to assess how this educational lack,lack, the fundamental unavailability of Africans skilled enough to 2 participate inin effective political and administrative life, was likelylikely toto affect what was likelylikely toto happen. My last visit was for about eight weeks. II was therethere up until thethe day of independence.independence. II thenthen slipped over thethe border between thethe Katanga and Uganda because II expected pretty much of a blood bath. JSS So inin thisthis period thenthen you were therethere before independence.independence. Were you able toto meet a number of thethe nationalist leaders?leaders? DA Yes, II met--I'm a little hazy about names at thisthis point--I met Lumumba several timestimes and interviewedinterviewed him. II met Tshombe and II met Kasavubu, and several others fromfrom thethe central area. II never met Gazinga whom II wanted very much toto meet but who had been more or lessless sealed off inin eastern Congo. JSS Could you give me your impressions,impressions, toto begin with, with Mr. Lumumba at thatthat period before he became Prime Minister? DA Yes, II was surprised by him. II knew something about his background of course, he had been a postal clerk and so on, but II expected somehowsomehow a more accomplished personality. If he was a diamond it was certainly inin thethe rough,rough, and II wasn't really prepared also for how limitedlimited he seemed toto be. He was explosive. His languagelanguage came out inin short explosive bursts. He spoke inin slogans. He seemed more or lessless uncomprehending of thethe questions asked him. He paid no attention toto themthem until somesome word triggeredtriggered a responseresponse thatthat he wanted toto make. So it was impossibleimpossible toto have thethe kind of 3 normal conversation you would expect in interviewing with political leaders. It was as if there was something mechanical about him as a personality, and physically too. He sort of twitched with intensity and nervousness. Combined with an explosive quality, an inability to sit still, I found him surprising. I never experienced that in dealing with any other serious political figure. He also seemed to be ill at ease he wasn't totally familiar with the surroundings. So I would say he was a person lacking in what might be called the social skills of politics. Nevertheless he had a certain ferocity in the way he spoke, and a determination. If what came out were slogans the slogans themselves were perfectly comprehensible. One had the feeling that this was an idealogue without a real ideology. Pieces of an ideology had been programmed into him and perhaps he thought in such terms, at least when he was dealing in French with somebody from outside his own general environment. I remember I was amazed by him. I wouldn't call our discussion a real interview. I was quite fascinated by him as a personality and wondered what he would be like when he had to actually deal with concrete problems. I couldn't imagine him actually sitting down and having the patience to think through something as distinct from being a kind of immediately reactive political leader. JSS That was exactly my next question. In talking to him did 4 you get any sense that he hadhad anyany understandingunderstanding ofof thethe rolerole that lay ahead for him inin thisthis newnew country?country? DDAA It's hard to say. It wasn't aa realreal interview,interview, eveneven thoughthough it went on for some time.time. II guessguess mymy recollectionrecollection isis thatthat it brings up a statement peoplepeople usedused toto makemake inin UgandaUganda whenwhen I would ask politicians longerlonger questions.questions. TheyThey wouldwould saysay "you don't cut up a cow untiluntil youyou killkill it."it." II havehave thethe feeling that he wasn't thinkingthinking veryvery farfar ahead.ahead. HisHis immediate universe consisted ofof enemiesenemies includingincluding thethe Belgians. In fact he had enemiesenemies everywhereeverywhere inin thethe Congo.Congo. His essential quality was anan abilityability toto attractattract peoplepeople toto him by his dynamic, nervous, tensetense personality.personality. HeHe looks,looks, thin, angular, quick, angry, bristly.bristly. ButBut hehe alsoalso caughtcaught everybody off guard. He wouldwould catchcatch themthem out.out. ThereThere waswas aa certain unpredictability aboutabout him.him. II wouldwould saysay thatthat hishis preoccupation wasn't really withwith whatwhat wouldwould happenhappen afterwards, except in somesome veryvery general,general, notnot terriblyterribly comprehending, way. II don't eveneven supposesuppose hehe hadhad aa goodgood conception of what thethe whole countrycountry waswas like.like. JSJSSS And going on from the future PrimePrime MinisterMinister toto thethe futurefuture President, Mr. Kasavubu, whatwhat waswas youryour impressionimpression ofof him?him? DDAA A totally different personality. PhysicallyPhysically theythey werewere entirely different. Where LumumbaLumumba waswas tensetense andand nervous,nervous, asas I recall quite tall, very thin,thin, angularangular face,face, KasavubuKasavubu waswas short, heavy, placid. One hadhad thethe sensesense hehe waswas veryvery wise,wise, very patient. He was someone whowho hadhad comecome upup fromfrom thethe 55 inside of African ethnic politicspolitics withwith aa veryvery suresure sensesense ofof what the ingredients were,were, atat leastleast inin termsterms ofof thethe Congo.Congo. He was more parochial inin thethe sensesense ofof ethnicethnic politicspolitics butbut more conventional as aa politicianpolitician thanthan Lumumba.Lumumba. OfOf coursecourse ethnic divisions were notnot onlyonly veryvery veryvery strongstrong andand regionally differentiated forfor administrativeadministrative purposes.purposes. AsAs already suggested under thethe BelgianBelgian somesome ethnicethnic groupsgroups hadhad been pushed ahead much fasterfaster thanthan othersothers soso thatthat youyou hadhad aa larger component of educatededucated peoplepeople inin oneone groupgroup thanthan youyou would with another. ThisThis introducedintroduced intointo anan alreadyalready generally inwardinward lookinglooking setset ofof communitiescommunities thethe kindkind ofof resistance and hostility betweenbetween ethnicethnic groupsgroups whichwhich resulted in explosive conflictconflict ofof independence.independence.