United Nations Oral History Project
David Apter 27 February 1991
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YUN TAPE PROFESSOR DAVID APTER YALE UNIVERSITY FEBRUARY 27, 1991 INTERVIEWER: SUTTERLIN
TABLE OF CONTENTS
I. The Congo
Conditions before Independence 1-2, 8-9, 17-19 Leading Personalities 2-7, 9-13 Conor Cruise O'Brien 14-16 American African Policy 19-22
II. Ghana
Volta Development Plan 22-24 Robert Gardiner 24-25 YONYUN TAPTAPEE PROFESSOR DAVID APTEAPTERR YALE UNIVERSITUNIVERSITYY FEBRUARY 27, 19919911 INTERVIEWER: SUTTERLISUTTERLINN
JSJSSS Professor Apter, I want first to express appreciation for
your willingness to participate in this Yale oral history
project on the United Nations. And, if I might, I would
like first to ask you to indicate your connection with the
Congo. What were you doing in the Congo during the period
of the crisis there in the '60s.
DA I had made several trips to the Congo under various
auspices, mainly to interview people. My first interest was
to contrast the slow pace of evolution towards political
autonomy in the Congo as compared with countries I had been
working with and in which I was interested, mainly Ghana,
Nigeria, Uganda, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire namely. I also
spent some time in Kenya and Tanzania. My first field work
had been in Ghana, (originally Gold Coast). I was interest
in the problem of the transition from dependence to
independence via mass nationalist movements in Which the
procedure in effect was to channel nationalism and the
mobilization of support into increasingly enlarged and more
representative bodies, by means of voting and electoral
methods. The expansion of the franchise, and the transformation of legislative bodies from nonrepresentative.... to increasingly representative, and then essentially
1 parliamentary bodies with cabinet responsibility,
parliamentary accountability, and effective internal self
government marked thethe last step before power was finally
transferred. And that was one way or another the procedure
in virtually all British African countries within the
commonwealth framework. Something very different, perhaps
less effectively, was followed in French Africa. But in
both cases the process was accompanied by thethe clear
recognition that crucial to success was the of people with diverse interests, on the one hand, and education and especially the expansion of higher education.
One of thethe things that struck me in the Congo was the attempt to prevent nationalism by holding back on any kind of higher education. Indeed education was minimized, although the Belgian authorities did vary the extent of educational reform according to different provinces on the theorytheory that you had to raise up the level of a whole group of people within a province or ethnic group rather not piecemeal. But there was very little progress. There were hardly any skilled or trained people, very fewfew doctors, and so on. So one of my more particular interests was to see who were the Conglese nationalist leaders. II wanted to meet and interviewinterview themthem before independence,independence, comparing themthem with their counterparts in French speaking and English speaking
Africa. II also tried to assess how this educational lack,lack, the fundamental unavailability of Africans skilled enough to
2 participate inin effective political and administrative life,
was likelylikely toto affect what was likelylikely toto happen.
My last visit was for about eight weeks. II was therethere
up until thethe day of independence.independence. II thenthen slipped over thethe
border between thethe Katanga and Uganda because II expected
pretty much of a blood bath.
JSS So inin thisthis period thenthen you were therethere before independence.independence.
Were you able toto meet a number of thethe nationalist leaders?leaders?
DA Yes, II met--I'm a little hazy about names at thisthis point--I
met Lumumba several timestimes and interviewedinterviewed him. II met
Tshombe and II met Kasavubu, and several others fromfrom thethe
central area. II never met Gazinga whom II wanted very much
toto meet but who had been more or lessless sealed off inin eastern
Congo.
JSS Could you give me your impressions,impressions, toto begin with, with Mr.
Lumumba at thatthat period before he became Prime Minister?
DA Yes, II was surprised by him. II knew something about his
background of course, he had been a postal clerk and so on,
but II expected somehowsomehow a more accomplished personality. If
he was a diamond it was certainly inin thethe rough,rough, and II wasn't
really prepared also for how limitedlimited he seemed toto be. He
was explosive. His languagelanguage came out inin short explosive
bursts. He spoke inin slogans. He seemed more or lessless
uncomprehending of thethe questions asked him. He paid no
attention toto themthem until somesome word triggeredtriggered a responseresponse thatthat
he wanted toto make. So it was impossibleimpossible toto have thethe kind of
3 normal conversation you would expect in interviewing with
political leaders. It was as if there was something
mechanical about him as a personality, and physically too.
He sort of twitched with intensity and nervousness.
Combined with an explosive quality, an inability to sit
still, I found him surprising. I never experienced that in
dealing with any other serious political figure. He also
seemed to be ill at ease he wasn't totally familiar
with the surroundings. So I would say he was a person
lacking in what might be called the social skills of
politics. Nevertheless he had a certain ferocity in the way
he spoke, and a determination. If what came out were
slogans the slogans themselves were perfectly
comprehensible. One had the feeling that this was an
idealogue without a real ideology. Pieces of an ideology
had been programmed into him and perhaps he thought in such
terms, at least when he was dealing in French with somebody
from outside his own general environment. I remember I was
amazed by him. I wouldn't call our discussion a real
interview. I was quite fascinated by him as a personality
and wondered what he would be like when he had to actually
deal with concrete problems. I couldn't imagine him
actually sitting down and having the patience to think
through something as distinct from being a kind of
immediately reactive political leader.
JSS That was exactly my next question. In talking to him did
4 you get any sense that he hadhad anyany understandingunderstanding ofof thethe rolerole
that lay ahead for him inin thisthis newnew country?country?
DDAA It's hard to say. It wasn't aa realreal interview,interview, eveneven thoughthough
it went on for some time.time. II guessguess mymy recollectionrecollection isis thatthat
it brings up a statement peoplepeople usedused toto makemake inin UgandaUganda whenwhen
I would ask politicians longerlonger questions.questions. TheyThey wouldwould saysay
"you don't cut up a cow untiluntil youyou killkill it."it." II havehave thethe
feeling that he wasn't thinkingthinking veryvery farfar ahead.ahead. HisHis
immediate universe consisted ofof enemiesenemies includingincluding thethe
Belgians. In fact he had enemiesenemies everywhereeverywhere inin thethe Congo.Congo.
His essential quality was anan abilityability toto attractattract peoplepeople toto
him by his dynamic, nervous, tensetense personality.personality. HeHe looks,looks,
thin, angular, quick, angry, bristly.bristly. ButBut hehe alsoalso caughtcaught
everybody off guard. He wouldwould catchcatch themthem out.out. ThereThere waswas aa
certain unpredictability aboutabout him.him. II wouldwould saysay thatthat hishis
preoccupation wasn't really withwith whatwhat wouldwould happenhappen
afterwards, except in somesome veryvery general,general, notnot terriblyterribly
comprehending, way. II don't eveneven supposesuppose hehe hadhad aa goodgood
conception of what thethe whole countrycountry waswas like.like.
JSJSSS And going on from the future PrimePrime MinisterMinister toto thethe futurefuture
President, Mr. Kasavubu, whatwhat waswas youryour impressionimpression ofof him?him?
DDAA A totally different personality. PhysicallyPhysically theythey werewere
entirely different. Where LumumbaLumumba waswas tensetense andand nervous,nervous, asas
I recall quite tall, very thin,thin, angularangular face,face, KasavubuKasavubu waswas
short, heavy, placid. One hadhad thethe sensesense hehe waswas veryvery wise,wise,
very patient. He was someone whowho hadhad comecome upup fromfrom thethe
55 inside of African ethnic politicspolitics withwith aa veryvery suresure sensesense ofof
what the ingredients were,were, atat leastleast inin termsterms ofof thethe Congo.Congo.
He was more parochial inin thethe sensesense ofof ethnicethnic politicspolitics butbut
more conventional as aa politicianpolitician thanthan Lumumba.Lumumba. OfOf coursecourse
ethnic divisions were notnot onlyonly veryvery veryvery strongstrong andand
regionally differentiated forfor administrativeadministrative purposes.purposes. AsAs
already suggested under thethe BelgianBelgian somesome ethnicethnic groupsgroups hadhad
been pushed ahead much fasterfaster thanthan othersothers soso thatthat youyou hadhad aa
larger component of educatededucated peoplepeople inin oneone groupgroup thanthan youyou
would with another. ThisThis introducedintroduced intointo anan alreadyalready
generally inwardinward lookinglooking setset ofof communitiescommunities thethe kindkind ofof
resistance and hostility betweenbetween ethnicethnic groupsgroups whichwhich
resulted in explosive conflictconflict ofof independence.independence. AsAs II saysay
thithiss was part of our originaloriginal designdesign toto keepkeep aa kindkind ofof
balance within communities ratherrather thanthan betweenbetween them.them. ratherrather
than simply divide and rule.rule. ItIt wouldwould bebe tootoo easyeasy toto callcall
it just a divide and conquerconquer kindkind ofof tactic.·tactic.· ButBut itit waswas
parpartt of a long termterm BelgianBelgian strategystrategy ofof preventingpreventing unrestunrest byby
providing multiple programs inin medicalmedical facilities,facilities,
education, housing, roadroad infrastructureinfrastructure inin aa wayway favoringfavoring
one province and one ethnicethnic groupgroup againstagainst another.another. SoSo withwith
Kasavubu, one had thethe sensesense ofof hishis easyeasy withinwithin hishis ownown
ethnic group, which includedincluded whatwhat waswas thenthen Leopoldville.Leopoldville. HeHe
was totally in command ofof thethe situationsituation andand waswas aa chief.chief.
JSJSSS And the sense of hostility towardtoward thethe BelgiansBelgians oror otherother
foreigners did not come throughthrough inin casecase ofof KasavubuKasavubu thethe wayway
66 it did with Lumumba?
DA No, not at all. My feeling was that he knew how to work
with them and he could take themthem or leave them,them, he wasn't
intimidated by them.them. He was his own person.
JSS Did you meet Mobutu at that point?
DA No, I never met Mobutu.
JSS Because he was more or less in the background still, then,
in the Army. Going on then to a remarkable figure, I think.
How would you characterize him?
DA Well, Tshombe, I didn't have much chance to talk to him. I
heard him give a speech and I was introduced to him
afterwards and had a bit of a chat with him. Tshombe was
the best politician in the practical sense of the term.
Although with his own group he was just as local as any of
the others, he was very polished as a speaker. He was
small, a bit rotund - not quite as BUddha - like as
Kasavubu. He was quite Charming,charming, easy to talk to. He was
probably the most Europeanized. He knew how to deal with
Union Miniere. He knew how to deal with and liked
Europeans. He got along well with the Katangese
administration. One had the sense of his social and
political accomplishment, although, by the time I met him,
he was already regarded as a reactionary by virtually all
the other political leaders. Nevertheless he was self
assured, a cosmopolitan man of the world, even though that
world, in fact, was rooted in Katanga Which was where I met
7 him. Of course at the time Katanga was full of Europeans.
It was in that sense very Europeanized. There was some of
the best academic research facilities in the country __
There was a sense in which, although far from the center, it
was a center of its own.
JSJSSS Now going in at this point and talking to a good many of the
people in Katanga and the rest of the Congo you were
approaching it in an analytical prospective so to speak, as
to the administrative capacity and administrative
procedures. Would you have assessed the country as ready
for transition to independenceindependence at that point? Or did you
find it totally unprepared?
DA Well, II fUlly expected it to be a shambles and said so at
the time. That's why II left. II expected it to explode.
There are many other political leaders whom II interviewed
and whose names II have forgotten. II would have to go back
over my notes. But II found themthem concerned for their own
skins, their connections to ethnic groups in different
provinces, and few with a broad perspective. An exception II
remember who later went to st. Antony's College at Oxford
when II was there was Thomas Kanza. He was very bright and
sophisticated but there were not many others. No, II thought
the country was in no way ready for independence. While the
Belgians did not pull a De Gaulle-in-Guinea kind of thing
(where at independenceindependence virtually everything was pulled out
the country including all kinds of equipment. But their
8 strategy was to speed upup thethe transitiontransition soso fastfast thatthat theythey
would in effect inherit thethe post-independencepost-independence pieces.pieces. InIn aa
sense that is exactly whatwhat happened.happened. OtherOther thanthan thatthat theythey
made no real preparatory effort.effort. II thinkthink everybodyeverybody withwith anyany
sense of responsibility threwthrew upup hands.hands. MostMost BelgiansBelgians
were really very anxious. EveryoneEveryone anticipatedanticipated aa disaster.disaster.
But the was also anxiousanxious toto avoidavoid responsibilityresponsibility forfor that. By not in any way impedingimpeding thethe transitiontransition inin effecteffect
they let the chips fall wherewhere theythey may.may.
I did talk to some seniorsenior governmentgovernment officialsofficials
including the Governor GeneralGeneral ofof RuandaRuanda andand theythey all,all,
almost to a man, deplored thethe BrusselsBrussels policy.policy. TheyThey foundfound
it extremely irresponsible. AllAll expectedexpected aa bloodbath.bloodbath.
JSS So that going into it asas thethe unitedunited NationsNations diddid itit couldcould
have been anticipated thatthat therethere waswas goinggoing toto bebe gravegrave
difficulties?
DA Yes, in fact II think II wrotewrote thatthat forfor AfricaAfrica ReportReport oror
something like that while II waswas stillstill therethere inin anticipationanticipation
of what happened.
JSS And the level of education waswas deplorabledeplorable asas II understandunderstand
it. Did you find that toto bebe truetrue throughoutthroughout youryour contacts?contacts?
DA Yes, one did find, of course,course, aa fewfew AfricanAfrican medicalmedical technicians, school teachers,teachers, etc.etc. ButBut thesethese tootoo werewere
Belgians. They were still therethere andand hadhad toto dodo theirtheir jobs.jobs.
There was also a certain competence.competence. II didn'tdidn't findfind generalgeneral
incompetence. Rather therethere waswas aa veryvery lowlow levellevel ofof
99 Africanization inin thesethese required positions of competence.
Where Africans were in place theythey seemed to be reasonably
proficient. Sometimessometimes more proficient thanthan their English
speaking or French speaking African counterparts. II
thinkthink where therethere was primary education was done
reasonably well.
JSS Did you meet thethe man who became thethe Interior Minister of
Katanga, Mr. Munongo?
DA Yes, as III I had dinner with him following drinks first
on thethe veranda of his very nice house. II was in thethe company
of a well known anthropologist, Jacques Macquet, author of
The Premis of Inequality inin Rowanda. It was throughthrough him
that II was takentaken on this trip toto interviewinterview people. The way
II met Godefroid Munongo was rather amusing. We were driving
in a big American car and as we entered his territory thethe
car got absolutely mired inin thethe mud. Of course we were on
our way toto see him.
JSS Was this before or after independence?independence?
DA This was before. Chief Munongo simply ordered a largelarge group
of men toto come and theythey literally lifted thethe car out of thethe
mud. We were thenthen invitedinvited inin for a very gracious, and II
would say, totally cynical conversation. As II rememberremember thethe
conversation, II had this feeling, since II was fairly young,
that Godefroid Munongo was just simply amused by us. But he
had high regard for Jaques Macquet. There were several
Belgian administrators around, but Munongo was very much at
10 the center of things. He andand thethe administratorsadministrators hadhad aa kindkind
of joking relationship. He waswas veryvery relaxed.relaxed. ThereThere waswas nono
concern with what todaytoday is calledcalled "otherness.""otherness." AllAll partpart ofof
the same organization. Each hadhad hishis partpart toto play.play.
JSS He also, I believe, was thethe chiefchief ofof aa tribe.tribe.
DA Oh yes, it was his followers whowho pulledpulled usus outout ofof thethe mud.mUd.
JSS He has been portrayed inin somesome ofof thethe writingswritings onon thethe KatangaKatanga
as a very cruel person, a veryvery cruelcruel man,man, capablecapable ofof allall
sorts of crimes. Did you getget anyany inklinginkling ofof that?that?
DA Not really. I would have saidsaid thatthat hehe hadhad anan enormousenormous sensesense
of power and that he would dodo anythinganything necessary,necessary, oror
anything within his power thatthat hehe regardedregarded toto bebe necessary.necessary.
He gave the impression of beingbeing exceptionallyexceptionally autonomousautonomous asas
a personality. He was very muchmuch thethe centercenter piece.piece. II
wouldn't say that the administrators feltfelt inferiorinferior toto him,him,
but I had the feeling that hehe couldcould havehave treatedtreated themthem asas ifif
they were small boys if he hadhad chosenchosen toto dodo it.it. HeHe waswas
quite affable and correct andand hadhad aa greatgreat sensesense ofof humor,humor, aa
sardonic sense of humor. II certainlycertainly hadhad thethe feelingfeeling thatthat
he was accustomed to thethe exercise ofof power,power, andand veryvery muchmuch
his own man. More thanthan thatthat II reallyreally couldn'tcouldn't say.say.
JSS And on the conservative side?
DA Oh yes, I would say more thanthan conservative,conservative, reactingreacting inin thethe
real sense of the term. He didn'tdidn't thinkthink thethe locallocal
politicians were worth a damn. HeHe hadhad absoluteabsolute contemptcontempt forfor
them. He had respect for what hehe consideredconsidered himselfhimself toto bebe
1111 part of, the Belgian administration.administration. HeHe reallyreally couldn'tcouldn't
understand, indeed,indeed, II don'tdon't thinkthink hehe believed,believed, thatthat thethe
Belgians were paying muchmuch realreal attentionattention toto thesethese peoplepeople whowho
were nothing more thanthan 'trouble'trouble makers'.makers'.
JSS There have been suggestions laterlater thatthat hehe waswas directlydirectly
involved in thethe final murdermurder ofof Lumurnba.Lumurnba. InIn youryour
connections did you hearhear anythinganything aboutabout that?that?
DA Yes. I heard that notnot veryvery longlong afterafter thethe murdermurder ofof LumurnbaLumurnba
from several people. TheThe personperson whowho shouldshould knowknow aboutabout thatthat
was with us on thatthat occasion,occasion, EdouardEdouard Bustin.Bustin. BustinBustin waswas
making a study of thethe transition.transition. HeHe hadhad goodgood sourcessources ofof
information, both on thethe BelgianBelgian sideside andand onon AfricanAfrican side.side.
JSS And they indicated thatthat toto theirtheir knowledgeknowledge thatthat MunongoMunongo waswas
directly involved inin
DA Yes, the information thatthat II got,got, andand II thinkthink ConorConor CruiseCruise
O'Brien may have toldtold meme this,this, thatthat Munongo'sMunongo's men,men, workingworking
either with or under somesome kindkind ofof connectionconnection toto bothboth thethe
Belgian police and thethe CIA,CIA, tippedtipped offoff MunongoMunongo thatthat LumurnboLumurnbo
was going to be inin hishis area.area. ForFor aliali knowknow itit waswas probablyprobably
the same men who pUlled ourour carcar outout ofof thethe mudmud whowho wentwent toto
work on him. II did hearhear oneone storystory thatthat MunongoMunongo himself,himself,
participated inin thethe actualactual killing.killing. ButBut whetherwhether thisthis isis
true or not II have nono idea.idea. II wouldn'twouldn't bebe surprised.surprised.
JSS He was probably capable ofof doingdoing it.it. WereWere therethere otherother
persons who made a particularparticular impressionimpression onon youyou inin thisthis
period before thethe independence?independence?
1212 DA There was a very interesting lawyerlawyer whose name was Reuben,
who had decided that he was going to stay on. He seemed to
be respected in a circle of middle of the road African
nationalists. II had dinner with Reubens in his area
absolutely superb South African Dutch style white washed
house, very beautiful, very large. II think he believed he
could become a kind of senior politician advisor, a man of
good will, who could become more than an intermediary
but would accept the responsibility of elective office as a
Zairian. II understand he didn't last very long. He had a
lot of wisdom, had a lot of understanding about the
different kinds of nationalism which in the context of the
time some people put down as kind of simple-minded
tribalism. He recognized that there was a great deal more
to it than that. Sometimes what was going or was a kind of
ethnic class struggle between the groups which had been held
back and others which had been advanced. There were
particularly important differences between those in rural
areas and those who had become much more industrialized. In
Katanga with a large mining popUlation, this was the
beginning of an industrial labor force. In general people's
attitudes were much more complicated than it appeared. For
example Flemish miners in the Katanga whose reputation was
that they were the most violently anti-African, because they
were miners developed a kind of solidarity with African
miners. This inclined themthem to be more close and intimate
13 with Africans at every level, in terms of social life,
as well as economic activities. Another thing that was
startling was the extreme segregation. From Leopoldville
all the way down to Elizabethville, la cite Africaine, was
another world and Europeans weren't unsafe going in there
but they did not, in fact, penetrate that world. Urban life
was insulated against Europeans.
JSS You mentioned Conor Cruise O'Brien who later became the
United Nations Representative in Elizabethville. Did you
know him before he went to the Congo, or did you know him
after that?
DA It is hard to remember. I think I knew him after that.
Yes, after that.
JSS Could you give your impression of Conor Cruise O'Brien? As
you no doubt know, his stay in Elizabethville was somewhat
controversial and different things have been written,
including things that he has written. How would you
characterize Conor Cruise O'Brien?
DA I think Conor is mad, brilliant, extraordinarily brilliant,
a person of many disguises, and guises. He writes under
several names. If I may be excused of putting it this way,
he is wonderfully Irish. He comes from a nationalist "royal
family," as does his wife, and they summarize between the
two of them all the complexities and ambiguities of being
the universal intellectual, highly sophisticated, and also
deeply rooted in the Irish nationalist circumstances through
14 which he tended to interpret African independence.independence.
JSS Did you have opportunities to discuss the developments in
the Congo, in particularly in the Katanga, with him later?
DA Yes, but not terribly much because by the timetime II got to know
him he was Vice Chancellor of the University of Ghana and
having his own battles with Kwame Nkrumah who wanted to make
it more of an ideological rather than an intellectual place.
At this point Conor cruise O'BrienQ'Brien appeared very much in the
role of the traditional English academic defending academic
freedom. This was very different from the role he played in
the Congo. II think he is a supreme manipulator, although II
think he is very determined to manipulate on the side of
"virtue." He also, as a brilliant intellectual, decided
what indeed constituted virtue. Some people might call that
opportunism, but II don't think he felt that this was
correct. He was a radical and a liberal in the real sense
of the term,term, but not an ideologue.ideologue.
JSS A radical liberalist would you say?
DA Yes, a radical liberal. Rad-lib II think they used to call
it in the old days. Very idiosyncratic, impatient with any
kind of bureaucracy, very hard on the people who worked with
him, who could neither keep up with his intellectual leaps,
his inconsistencies as a personality etc. Of course he
drank an enormous amount. He seemed to believe that the
more he drank the sharper he got and that unfortunately
wasn't always the case. He fought with almost everybody, as
15 II recall, but he had a thing about Lumumba. He rather liked
Lumumba, or II think he liked the idea of Lumumba, that there
would be somebody who would come to represent the center, a
kinkindd of radical center. No other figure was able to shake
off localismlocalism and ethnicity the way Lumumba could. Lumumba
jusjustt didn't care about that. Lumumba may have had a small
tribal following but that wasn't the basis of his support
and II think that/s what appealed to Conor Cruise o'Brien.
JSJSSS Yes, in his writings he has portrayed Lumumba in that sense
and has more thanthan suggested that the murder of Lumumba was
arranged by the CIA and that in this Dag HammarskjoldHamrnarskjold had a
certain role. My question here is in your conversations
later, did any of this antipathy to Dag Hammarskjold come
out?
DDAA Yes, II think he thoughtthought that Dag Hammarskjold was a stuffed
shirt. Conor really didn/t have a great respect for the
united Nations. There were very fewfew people who did as II
recall. While he was the representative of the Unitedunited
Nations, his experiences only confirmed him in his
prejudices. Dag HammarskjoldHarnmarskjold seemed to him to be the
personification of the pious inept manipulative pro-Western
deceitful figure, who because he was Swedish, seemed always
to escape thethe kind of jUdgmentsjUdgments and evaluations that he
deserved.
JSJSSS Conor Cruise O'Brien certainly did his part to make that
evaluation. Those are the questions that II had. Were there
16 any other thoughts thatthat comecome toto youyou thatthat youyou wouldwould likelike toto
record concerning thethe impressionsimpressions youyou gainedgained atat thatthat stagestage
of the congo?
DDAA Just a few things. One waswas thethe sensesense ofof thethe terribleterrible
backwardness of thethe country notnot onlyonly inin thethe Congo,Congo, butbut alsoalso
in Ruwanda and Burundi,
JSJSSS Which were also Belgian administered.administered.
DA Yes, and upcountry one hadhad thethe feelingfeeling ofof peoplepeople reallyreally upup
against it. There was anan extraordinaryextraordinary degreedegree ofof
overpopulation. There waswas renewedrenewed conflictconflict betweenbetween WatutsiWatutsi
and the Bahatu. And eveneven aa a a GovernorGovernor GeneralGeneral ofof
Ruwanda indicated that therethere hadhad beenbeen virtuallyvirtually nono
preparation for Africanization atat thethe levellevel ofof locallocal
administration, includingincluding medicalmedical notnot toto speakspeak ofof justjust
ordinary local government. IndeedIndeed therethere seemedseemed toto bebe nono
preparation whatsoever forfor thethe changechange thatthat waswas aboutabout toto taketake
place. The minute you gotgot awayaway fromfrom placesplaces likelike
Elizabethville, or even withinwithin ElizabethvilleElizabethville itself,itself, therethere
was virtually no preparation forfor selfself government.government. WhatWhat
there was the dickering andand bargainingbargaining amongstamongst differentdifferent
African politicians and seniorsenior administrators.administrators. ThereThere waswas
one in particular whose namename I'veI've forgottenforgotten whowho waswas aa veryvery
famous and a brilliant BelgianBelgian who,who, knewknew perfectlyperfectly wellwell whatwhat
was going to happen. HeHe simplysimply triedtried toto putput thethe bestbest faceface
on it he could. This man,man, II think,think, waswas secondsecond inin commandcommand ofof
the process from Leopoldville. II hadhad metmet himhim onon aa numbernumber ofof
1717 occasionsoccasions andand talkedtalked withwith him.him. HeHe justjust acceptedaccepted whatwhat hadhad
nownow becomebecome inevitableinevitable asas highhigh policy,policy, butbut tooktook thethe positionposition
thatthat whatwhat thethe BelgiansBelgians werewere doingdoing inin termsterms ofof AfricaAfrica waswas notnot
aa questionquestion ofof ideologyideology aboutabout colonialismcolonialism oror anticolonialism,anticolonialism,
butbut aa humanhuman phenomenonphenomenon thatthat wouldwould produceproduce aa terribleterrible
disaster.disaster. II thinkthink everybodyeverybody knewknew rightright throughoutthroughout thethe
system.system. EverybodyEverybody hadhad aa foretasteforetaste ofof doorn,doom, exceptexcept onon thethe
AmericanAmerican side.side. TheThe AmericanAmerican side,side, (I(I rememberremember talkingtalking toto
HelenHelen KitchenKitchen aboutabout this),this), justjust assumedassumed thatthat independenceindependence
comescomes thethe wayway babiesbabies areare born.born. ItIt allall happenshappens naturally.naturally.
ToTo bebe suresure therethere mightmight bebe somesome traumatrauma associatedassociated withwith thethe
birth.birth. ButBut allall wouldwould bebe handledhandled inin duedue course.course. ThereThere waswas
nono concernconcern thatthat conflicts,conflicts, ferociousferocious ones,ones, werewere incipient.incipient.
(At(At thethe timetime therethere werewere veryvery fewfew AmericanAmerican scholarsscholars workingworking
inin Zaire.)Zaire.)
JSJSSS ItIt isis interestinginteresting thatthat HammarskjoldHarnmarskjold seemsseems toto havehave
anticipatedanticipated realreal troubletrouble therethere andand hadhad sentsent RalphRalph Bunche,Bunche,
youyou nono doubtdoubt knowknow hehe waswas therethere forfor thethe independenceindependence butbut alsoalso
toto staystay onon beyondbeyond independenceindependence whichwhich hehe diddid actuallyactually andand metmet
withwith thethe cabinetcabinet inin itsits firstfirst meeting.meeting.
DDAA II mightmight justjust addadd onon oneone otherother notenote whichwhich doesn'tdoesn't havehave
anythinganything particularlyparticularly toto dodo withwith thethe Congo.Congo. II knewknew SirSir
AndrewAndrew CohenCohen quitequite well,well, knewknew himhim inin Uganda,Uganda, andand wewe becamebecame
friends.friends. II knewknew himhim whenwhen hehe waswas nono longerlonger governorgovernor ofof
UgandaUganda butbut hadhad becomebecome thethe representativerepresentative toto thethe UnitedUnited
Nations,Nations, II think,think, TrusteeshipTrusteeship Council.Council. SoSo II usedused toto gogo toto
1818 the UN quite regularly which meantmeant II gotgot somesome sensesense ofof thethe
interior workings of UN delegations. (The(The BritishBritish wouldwould getget
certain things done throughthrough thethe IndianIndian delegation.)delegation.) OneOne satsat
in on some of the trade-offs andand bargainsbargains beingbeing struck.struck. SirSir
Andrew Cohen was a sort of FabianFabian socialistsocialist andand hadhad strongstrong
views and convictions about AfricanAfrican nationalism.nationalism. HeHe feltfelt
that it was positive rather thanthan negative,negative, unlikeunlike manymany ofof
his counterparts in thethe Colonial Office.Office. DuringDuring Cohen'sCohen's
period as Ambassador toto thethe TrusteeshipTrusteeship CouncilCouncil II wouldwould gogo
there quite regularly and satsat withwith thethe BritishBritish delegation.delegation.
There was no one like Cohen onon thethe BelgianBelgian side.side. LaterLater whenwhen
I had an association with thethe KennedyKennedy administrationadministration vis-avis-a
vis the formation of African policy,policy, soso waswas interestinginteresting toto
compare the attitudes of different countriescountries towardtoward postpost
independence pOlicies.policies.
JSS That does raise one other question.question. KennedyKennedy becamebecame
President right in the middle ofof thethe CongoCongo crisiscrisis andand therethere
was, I really believe, a distinct substantivesubstantive changechange inin u.s.D.S.
pOlicypolicy toward the Congo. WereWere youyou inin aa positionposition toto adviseadvise
the Kennedy administration onon AfricaAfrica andand inin particularparticular onon
the Congo?
DA Well, yes, and no. II was partpart ofof thethe fivefive manman tasktask forceforce
that George Ball set up. WeWe werewere responsibleresponsible forfor draftingdrafting
the initial Kennedy pOlicypolicy forfor Africa.Africa.
JSS Before the inauguration?
DA Before the inauguration. II thinkthink thethe otherother membersmembers ofof thatthat
1199 committee were Ruth Sloan, JamesJames Coleman,Coleman, VernonVernon McKay,McKay, andand
someone from the American MetalsMetals Climax,Climax, whosewhose namename I'veI've
forgotten. He was supposedly thethe spokesmanspokesman forfor CentralCentral
African affairs and thethe Congo. ButBut hehe didn'tdidn't knowknow veryvery muchmuch
about the Congo per se but waswas veryvery shrewdshrewd aboutabout coppercopper andand
what was going on in thethe Katanga. AndAnd atat thethe time,time, asas II
recall, the two main preoccupations werewere withwith CentralCentral
African Federation and Guinea-Ghana-Mali ,, i.e.i.e. thethe
group of the left, how far leftleft itit wouldwould go.go. OfOf coursecourse II
remember best discussing about whatwhat shouldshould bebe thethe AmericanAmerican
role toward Ghana if thethe move toto thethe leftleft continued,continued,
especially in terms of thethe VoltaVolta developmentdevelopment scheme.scheme. MyMy
view was not to react tootoo muchmuch andand certainlycertainly notnot inin aa wayway
that would play into thethe hands ofof thethe extremeextreme leftleft inin Ghana.Ghana.
At the time, of course thethe 'left''left' producedproduced aa certaincertain degreedegree
of paranoia. On the ground "the"the left"left" tendedtended toto disappeardisappear
very rapidly. And a good dealdeal ofof whatwhat waswas calledcalled AfricanAfrican
Socialism was simply state capitalismcapitalism withwith peoplepeople plunderingplundering
the state quite happily fromfrom thethe inside.inside. OnOn thethe wholewhole thatthat
advice was taken. Then II becamebecame aa membermember ofof thethe AfricanAfrican
Advisory CouncilorCouncil or something likelike that.that. ItIt metmet
periodically. There was a particularlyparticularly brightbright AssistantAssistant
Secretary of State under Soapy WilliamsWilliams wouldwould periodicallyperiodically
ask about specific things. PerhapsPerhaps thethe mostmost importantimportant issueissue was the Volta scheme. The VoltaVolta schemescheme waswas gavegave
extraordinarily favorable termsterms toto thethe KaiserKaiser corporation.corporation.
2020 The original aluminum companycompany thatthat waswas supposedsupposed toto gogo intointo
it was Canadian, Alcoa, butbut theythey withdrew.withdrew. OnceOnce theythey
withdrew the Ghanaians panickedpanicked aa bitbit sincesince thethe waswas toto
be their main developmental centerpiececenterpiece afterafter independence,independence,
a token of their entry intointo whatwhat couldcould bebe regardedregarded asas thethe
developmental world asas distinctdistinct fromfrom thethe worldworld ofof
nationalism. (In fact thatthat isis thethe wayway thatthat NkrumahNkrumah
presented it throughthrough K.K. A.A. Gbedmah,Gbedmah, hishis MinisterMinister ofof FinanceFinance
to the United states andand leastleast throughthrough thethe personperson ofof
Adlai stevenson,Stevenson, whom II originallyoriginally metmet inin Gbedemah'sGbedemah's househouse
in Accra and thenthen got toto knowknow againagain inin Chicago.Chicago. (I(I waswas
teaching in the University ofof ChicagoChicago inin thosethose days.)days.)
JSS That was in his lawyerlawyer capacity?capacity?
DA No, as a political figure. HeHe maymay havehave givengiven legallegal advice.advice.
JSS It's possible.
DA But he was at that point aa worldworld figure.figure. TheThe VoltaVoltascheme scheme
was as you know quite aa remarkableremarkable scheme.scheme. ItIt includedincluded thethe
Akosombo dam to generate sufficientsufficient hydro-electricityhydro-electricity forfor
processing bauxite which GhanaGhana hadhad aa greatgreat abundance.abundance. AA
huge new harbor was toto bebe builtbuilt atat TemaTema whichwhich II rememberremember
originally as a fishing villagevillage somesome thirtythirty milesmiles oror soso fromfrom
Accra. It created thethe largestlargest man-mademan-made lakelake inin thethe world.world.
For irrigation purposes thethe planplan waswas toto floodflood thethe AccraAccra
plains which were alternatively veryvery drydry oror veryvery wet.wet. TheThe
whole plan fired thethe imaginationimagination ofof Nkrumah.Nkrumah. TheThe
conservative opposition toto NkrumahNkrumah opposedopposed itit onon thethe groundsgrounds
2121 that this was an imperialist plot Nkrumah didn't take kindly to this sort of opposition. So there was a kind of natural reaching out between the Kennedy administration people, the Kaiser Corporation, the British who were supposed to finance the dam, and Nkrumah himself, and thethe Convention People's Party. All of these things were takentaken as positive illustrations of pragmatism, and that radicalism shouldn't be takentaken tootoo seriously. At thethe same time,time, Nkrumah was doing something which was indeedindeed quite radical. One of the reasons he wanted all this development was to strengthen his position, and enable him to prepare for his "second coming. 1I1f The first was his return from exile and taking over the country. The second was to assume the liberator of all of Africa. He had for this purpose established what he called ministers' plenipotentiary for trade union organizations, women's organizations, all the voluntary organizations which he now tooktook over by the Party and Ghana government. These ambassadors plenipotentiary were halfway between being officials of the government and representatives of private or voluntary associations (which were no longerlonger voluntary.) These became his instruments for penetrating Africa. He began to rely on Soviet trained regimental guards where previously the army had been under British officers (who brought the Ghanaian forces to the Congo I might add). When General Alexander was fired all began to change. He also brought in groups of Chinese under
22 Huang Hua, the first Chinese ambassadorambassador toto Ghana,Ghana, (who(who hadhad been Edgar Snow's translator) andand whowho eventuallyeventually becamebecame thethe foreign minister of China. HuangHuang HuaHua helpedhelped toto organizeorganize twotwo terrorist training camps. ThenThen AmericansAmericans gotgot windwind ofof thesethese goings on at the same timetime thatthat companiescompanies likelike PillsburyPillsbury were encountering official oppositionopposition fromfrom thethe GhanaGhana government which opposed theirtheir investinginvesting inin aa cerealscereals growing and processing project.project. ManyMany otherother smallersmaller companies were also tryingtrying toto invest.invest. TheyThey camecame upup againstagainst the 'kind'kind of resistance thatthat manymany AmericanAmerican investorsinvestors foundfound with the Chinese It was justjust impossibleimpossible toto getget anyplace.anyplace.
More than the rhetoric ofof NkrumahNkrumah beganbegan toto movemove toto thethe left.left.
So on the one hand he carried onon thesethese veryvery successfulsuccessful andand amicable relationships withwith FrankFrank KnightKnight ofof whatwhat waswas calledcalled
Valco, the aluminum company, bothboth thethe rhetoricrhetoric andand thethe actual practice of thethe GhanaGhana governmentgovernment waswas increasinglyincreasingly troublesome in the Unitedunited states.states. BothBoth ChineseChinese andand sovietsoviet influence was increasing ratherrather rapidly.rapidly. AtAt thethe samesame timetime
Mali, then perhaps thethe mostmost StalinistStalinist countrycountry inin WestWest AfricaAfrica and Guinea heavily pro-communist, mademade overover BeachBeach otherother essentially. This lookedlooked bad.bad. II rememberremember beingbeing calledcalled inin to consult on whether or notnot thethe UnitedUnited StatesStates shouldshould pullpull out of the Volta scheme andand II advisedadvised atat thatthat timetime no,no, because I thought we'd wantwant toto comecome backback atat aa laterlater pointpoint and it would be very difficult. TheThe VoltaVolta ProjectProject waswas anan important hold over thethe GhanaiansGhanaians whichwhich wewe wouldwould loselose ifif wewe
2323 pulled out. The irony of the situation was that the original rationale of the scheme was to use the bauxite reserves in Ghana. But these were never used. It was found to be too expensive to mine them and transport them from where they were to the smelter. So they used bauxite from Guinea instead. JSJSSS There is one Ghanaian who had a rather important role in the Congo whose name is Gardiner. I wonder did you know him? DA Yes, I knew him very well. A very interesting man. He was originally an extramurals lecturer in Nigeria. That's where I first met him. An extramurals lecturer teaches university extension courses. He was a person with a great sense of personal propriety and dignity. He was bitterly opposed to Nkrumah. He thought that Nkrumah was a cheat and a fool. However, eventually Gardiner became Chief Establishment Secretary in Guana and in charge of the first Africanization program. He was highly regarded and worked well with the British to make the transition. Once that transition was reasonably complete and Gardiner had Africanized the civil service, it became quite apparent that he had peopled the civil service with those who would be resistent to politicization. Exactly what Nkrumah did not want. At that point Gardner became very vulnerable. He was fired, and was under a cloud for a while. Eventually he headed up the UNDP. JSJSSS That's right, he became a UN employee.
24 DA When he was young, when I first knew him he was treated in a
dismissive way both by the British and by other more
political successful Africans. He had an extraordinary
degree of pride, was extremely intelligent and close
mouthed, a very quiet person, I think he also had a lot of
real rage bottled up inside and political ambition which he
mastered very well. He was too intelligent and too
controlled and got on too well with Europeans for Nkrumah
just to get rid of him. But Nkrumah got him out of the
country and kept him out.
JSS Thank you very much.
DA You're welcome.
2255 NAME INDEINDEXX
Alexander, Gen. H. T.. ··· · · 24 Ball, George · · · 21 Bunche, Ralph .. · · · ··· · · 19 Bustin, Edouard ··· · · 13 Cohen, Andrew ••. . ··· · ··· · ··· · 20 Coleman, James · · · 21 Gardiner, Robert ...... ··· · · · · 1, 25, 26 Gazingi, Antoine ···· · · ··· · . 4 Gbedemah, K. A. .. · ··· · ··· · · 22 Huang Hua. .. •• 24
Kasavubu, Joseph ·· 4, 6, 7
Kitchen, Helen 19
Lumumba, Patrice ·· 4, 6, 7, 13, 17
Maque, JacquesJacgues 11, 13
McKay, Vernon .. 21
Mobutu, Joseph-Desire .. 7, 8
Nkrumah, Kwame 16, 22-26
O'Brien, Conor Cruisecruise .. 1,13,15-17
Sloane, Ruth 21
Snow, Edgar .. 24
Stevenson, Adlai 22
Tshombe, Moise 4, 8, 11
2266