COMMONWEALTH OF

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE

Official Hansard No. 1, 2002 WEDNESDAY, 13 FEBRUARY 2002

FORTIETH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

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SITTING DAYS—2002 Month Date February 12, 13, 14 March 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21 May 14, 15, 16 June 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27 August 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 27, 28, 29 September 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26 October 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24 November 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21 December 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12

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WEDNESDAY, 13 FEBRUARY Business— Rearrangement...... 127 Notices— Postponement ...... 127 Disability Services Amendment (Improved Quality Assurance) Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 127 Second Reading...... 127 Business— Rearrangement...... 128 Committees— Allocation of Departments and Agencies...... 129 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Meeting ...... 129 Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 130 Second Reading...... 130 Business— Consideration of Legislation ...... 130 Governor-General’s Speech...... 142 Matters of Public Interest— Immigration: Asylum Seekers...... 165 : Election...... 167 Kendall, Mrs Carol...... 170 South Australia: Election...... 173 Immigration: Asylum Seekers...... 173 Questions Without Notice— Defence Signals Directorate...... 176 Economy: Government Policy...... 176 Defence Signals Directorate...... 177 Pensions and Benefits: Social Security...... 178 Defence Signals Directorate...... 179 Defence Signals Directorate...... 180 Defence Signals Directorate...... 181 Howard Government: Population Policy...... 181 Criminal Code Amendment (Espionage and Related Offences) Legislation .. 182 Fisheries: Border Protection...... 182 Insurance: Health Funds...... 183 Immigration: Woomera Detention Centre ...... 184 Superannuation: Investment Rules ...... 185 Airports and Aviation: Security...... 186 Taxation: Pay-As-You-Go Instalments...... 187 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Defence Signals Directorate...... 188 Personal Explanations...... 194 New South Wales: Bushfires...... 195 Petitions— Taxation: Goods and Services ...... 196 Exports: Trade in Live Animals ...... 196 Telstra: Privatisation...... 196 Immigration: Refugees and Asylum Seekers ...... 196 SENATE CONTENTS—continued

Australian National Flag...... 197 Immigration: Asylum Seekers...... 197 Republic: Plebiscite...... 197 Notices— Presentation ...... 197 Business— Rearrangement...... 199 Notices— Postponement ...... 199 Leave of Absence...... 200 Business— Consideration of Legislation ...... 200 Eluay, Mr Theys ...... 200 Committees— A Certain Maritime Incident Committee—Establishment...... 201 Documents— Response to President’s Report ...... 201 Governor-General’s Speech...... 204 Committees— A Certain Maritime Incident Committee—Establishment...... 208 Valedictory...... 216 Committees— Membership...... 240 Adjournment— New South Wales: Bushfires ...... 242 Gibson, Senator Brian ...... 242 Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn...... 244 Gibson, Senator Brian ...... 244 Gibson, Senator Brian ...... 245 Federal Parliament...... 245 Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn...... 247 Gibson, Senator Brian ...... 247 Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn...... 247 Gibson, Senator Brian ...... 247 Documents— Tabling...... 248 Tabling...... 248 Questions on Notice— Communications: Contracts to Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu—(Question No. 3877)...... 250 Immigration: Mr Hussein Ali Hage Khalil Hammoud—(Question No. 2) ..... 251 Defence: Indonesia—(Question No. 3) ...... 251 Workplace Relations: Unfair Dismissals—(Question No. 5) ...... 254 Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 127

Wednesday, 13 February 2002 That this bill may proceed without formalities ————— and be now read a first time. The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Question agreed to. Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., Bill read a first time. and read prayers. Second Reading BUSINESS Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Rearrangement Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Treasurer) (9.33 a.m.)—I table the explana- Australia—Manager of Government Busi- tory memorandum and move: ness in the Senate) (9.31 a.m.)—I move: That this bill be now read a second time. That standing order 3(4) be suspended to en- I seek leave to have the second reading able the Senate to consider business other than speech incorporated in Hansard. that of a formal character before the address-in- Leave granted. reply to the Governor-General’s opening speech has been adopted. The speech read as follows— Senator Brown—Could I have that mo- Reform of specialist disability employment as- tion read out please, Madam President? sistance and rehabilitation services is critical to meeting broader objectives for welfare reform. The CLERK—The motion is that stand- People with disabilities, including those with ing order 3(4) be suspended to enable the greater support needs, should benefit to the Senate to consider business other than that of maximum extent possible from employment op- a formal character before the address-in- portunities available to the wider community. The reply to the Governor-General’s opening proposed new quality assurance system given speech has been adopted. effect by this Bill is a key element of the Gov- ernment’s plan to improve employment outcomes Question agreed to. for people with disabilities. NOTICES As part of the Australians Working Together Postponement package announced in the 2001 Budget, the Gov- ernment is providing more than $17 million over Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western four financial years for the new quality assurance Australia—Manager of Government Busi- system from 1 January 2002. Of this, $15 million ness in the Senate) (9.32 a.m.)—I move: will be used for implementation of this system That government business notice of motion from 1 July 2002. No. 2 relating to the introduction of the Financial This initiative will provide the platform to enable Services Reform (Consequential Provisions) Bill disability employment assistance services and 2002 be postponed till the next day of sitting. rehabilitation services to deliver quality out- Question agreed to. comes. The new system will benefit people with disabilities, as consumers and their carers. It will DISABILITY SERVICES AMENDMENT also benefit Government (and, therefore, the (IMPROVED QUALITY ASSURANCE) Australian taxpayer), as a purchaser of these BILL 2002 services. First Reading The specialist disability employment assistance Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western and rehabilitation programs addressed by this Bill Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the are just one part of a range of Commonwealth programs to help people with disabilities find and Treasurer) (9.32 a.m.)—I move: keep employment. Services are typically provided That the following bill be introduced: a bill for under contract by charitable, non-profit agencies an act to improve the quality of employment with the exception of rehabilitation, which is pro- services and rehabilitation programs provided for vided by CRS Australia. people with disabilities, and for related purposes. Currently, service quality is self-assessed annu- Question agreed to. ally by each agency and audited every five years Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western by the Commonwealth Department of Family and Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Community Services. The current system was designed around an expectation that services Treasurer) (9.32 a.m.)—I move: 128 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 would progress from minimum applicable stan- tem. Work is underway with the disability com- dards to higher standards. This simply has not munity to have it introduced from 1 July 2002. happened. This Bill provides the formal structure to put the The current system was discussed in Assuring new system to work. Quality, a 1997 report by the Disability Quality Ordered that further consideration of this and Standards Working Party, which comprised bill be adjourned to the first day of the 2002 key representatives of the disability sector. Of particular concern was the lack of a transparent autumn sittings, in accordance with standing and universally applied accreditation and certifi- order 111. cation system to provide an assurance of quality. BUSINESS The current system also lacks incentive for serv- Rearrangement ice improvement and a transparent system of complaints and referral. The new quality assur- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western ance system responds to these concerns. Australia—Manager of Government Busi- The new quality assurance system is the product ness in the Senate) (9.33 a.m.)—I move: of a great deal of time and energy committed by That the days of meeting of the Senate for the disability sector and the Government. A con- 2002 be as follows: sultation paper was widely distributed, public Summer sittings: consultations held around the country and tar- geted consumer focus groups set up. The new Tuesday, 12 February to Thursday, 14 system underwent a successful trial last year and February enjoys support from the industry. Autumn sittings: Under the new system, there will be a shift to a Monday, 11 March to Thursday, 14 system that is industry owned and supported, that March is outcome focused and that fosters a culture of Tuesday, 19 March to Thursday, 21 continuous improvement. A key component is March also the critical role people with disabilities will play as technical experts in the audit teams. Budget sittings: The new system is based on a well-established Tuesday, 14 May to Thursday, 16 system of accreditation and certification that uses May international standards of best practice. An inde- Winter sittings: pendent, internationally recognised accreditation Monday, 17 June to Thursday, 20 authority will accredit industry-based certification June agencies. The skilled audit teams managed by Monday, 24 June to Thursday, 27 those agencies will then certify disability em- June ployment services against the disability standards and associated key performance indicators. Spring sittings: Provision of rehabilitation programs by the Monday, 19 August to Thursday, 22 Commonwealth will also be audited against the August standards and associated key performance indi- Monday, 26 August to Thursday, 29 cators and certified under the new system. All August disability employment services and rehabilitation Monday, 16 September to Thursday, programs will be treated consistently. 19 September After a transition period ending in December Monday, 23 September to Thursday, 2004, only those existing disability employment 26 September services that fully meet the standards will attract Government funding and only those rehabilitation Monday, 14 October to Thursday, 17 programs the provision of which meets the stan- October dards will be approved. However, there will be a Monday, 21 October to Thursday, 24 range of incentives and support to help services October make the transition to the new system and con- Monday, 11 November to Thursday, tinue to improve. 14 November Newly established employment services will have Monday, 18 November to Tuesday, 19 up to a year to reach full standards. November The new complaint and referral system will form the final component of the quality assurance sys- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 129

Monday, 2 December to Thursday, 5 Legal and Constitutional December Attorney-General Monday, 9 December to Thursday, 12 Immigration and Multicultural and December. Indigenous Affairs Question agreed to. Rural and Regional Affairs and COMMITTEES Transport Allocation of Departments and Agencies Transport and Regional Services Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Agriculture, Fisheries and For- Australia—Manager of Government Busi- estry. ness in the Senate) (9.33 a.m.)—I move: Question agreed to. (1) That standing order 25(1) be amended as BUDGET follows: Consideration by Legislation Committees Omit: ‘Employment, Workplace Meeting Relations, Small Business and Education’, Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Australia—Manager of Government Busi- Substitute: ‘Employment, Workplace Relations and Education’. ness in the Senate) (9.34 a.m.)—I move: (2) That the continuing order relating to the (1) That estimates hearings by legislation allocation of departments and agencies committees for the year 2002 be to standing committees be amended to scheduled as follows: read as follows: 2001-02 additional estimates: Departments and agencies are allocated Monday, 18 February and Tuesday, to the legislative and general purpose 19 February and, if required, Friday, standing committees as follows: 22 February (Group A) Community Affairs Wednesday, 20 February and Family and Community Services Thursday, 21 February and, if Health and Ageing required, Friday, 22 February (Group B). Economics Treasury 2002-03 budget estimates: Industry, Tourism and Resources Monday, 27 May to Thursday, 30 May and, if required, Friday, 31 May Employment, Workplace Relations (Group A) and Education Monday, 3 June to Thursday, 6 June Employment and Workplace Rela- and, if required, Friday, 7 June tions (Group B) Education, Science and Training Wednesday, 20 November, and, if Environment, Communications, required, Friday, 22 November Information Technology and the Arts (supplementary hearings–Group A) Environment and Heritage Thursday, 21 November and, if Communications, Information required, Friday, 22 November Technology and the Arts (supplementary hearings–Group B). Finance and Public Administration (2) That the committees consider the proposed expenditure in accordance with Parliament the allocation of departments to Prime Minister and Cabinet committees agreed to by the Senate. Finance and Administration (3) That committees meet in the following Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade groups: Foreign Affairs and Trade Group A: Defence (including Veterans’ Af- Environment, Communications, fairs) Information Technology and the Arts 130 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Finance and Public Administration Ordered that further consideration of this Legal and Constitutional bill be adjourned to the first day of the 2002 Rural and Regional Affairs and autumn sittings, in accordance with standing Transport order 111. Group B: BUSINESS Community Affairs Consideration of Legislation Economics Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Employment, Workplace Relations Australia—Manager of Government Busi- and Education ness in the Senate) (9.35 a.m.)—I move: Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. That the provision of standing order 111(6) which prevents the continuation or resumption of (4) That the committees report to the Senate second reading debate on a bill within 14 days of on the following dates: its first introduction in either House not apply to Wednesday, 13 March 2002 in respect the Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002. of the 2001-02 additional estimates, Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.36 and a.m.)—This is quite an outrageous motion. Wednesday, 19 June 2002 in respect What we have at the outset of this parlia- of the 2002-03 budget estimates. mentary sitting is the government purport- Question agreed to. ing— REGIONAL FOREST AGREEMENTS Government senators interjecting— BILL 2002 Senator BROWN—The government First Reading members opposite may well leave the cham- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western ber, but it shows the disdain they have for a Australia—Manager of Government Busi- debate on a bill—the Regional Forest ness in the Senate) (9.34 a.m.)—I move: Agreements Bill 2002—which they claim to That the following bill be introduced: a bill for be urgent. That makes my point. The gov- an act relating to Regional Forest Agreements, ernment is claiming to make urgent a piece and for other purposes. of legislation which is now appearing, Question agreed to. amended, for the fourth time in this chamber, which has been brought persistently to the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western chamber by the government over the last Australia—Manager of Government Busi- three years and which, most lately, has been ness in the Senate) (9.35 a.m.)—I move: mishandled in the week leading to the federal That this bill may proceed without formalities election when the government tried to have it and be now read a first time. bombed through the Senate and failed to do Question agreed to. so. Bill read a first time. This is a piece of legislation with amend- Second Reading ments that the chamber has not yet seen. No- body in this chamber, other than the minister, Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western has a copy of this bill on his or her desk. Australia—Manager of Government Busi- How can you fast-forward a piece of legisla- ness in the Senate) (9.35 a.m.)—I table the tion which senators have not seen? The gov- explanatory memorandum and move: ernment has said obliquely that there is only That this bill be now read a second time. a minor amendment to the bill, but where is I seek leave to have the second reading that minor amendment? Could I be provided speech incorporated in Hansard. with a copy of the legislation—to be the first Leave not granted. in the chamber, other than the minister, to see it—with the amendment and the attendant Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I table the pieces of legislation? speech. The dynamics of this legislation are that the woodchip industry has been able to ma- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 131 noeuvre both the government and the Labor Prime Minister Howard, when he signed Party into having this as the first piece of the regional forest agreement in Tasmania in legislation on the Senate slate. And what a 1997, to howls of protest from the Tasmanian horrendous piece of legislation it is! The people, said that the regional forest agree- legislation is to fast-forward the regional ment would produce jobs. What you will not forest agreement process being validated in get in the debate that is going to follow on law by the passage of this bill through the this legislation, from either the Liberal Party parliament. The regional forest agreements or the Labor Party—because they speak as were signed by Prime Minister Howard and one on this legislation—is any justification several state premiers over the last three of the Prime Minister’s statement, because it years, and they effectively give all of the was a false promise. Instead of jobs being unprotected forests in Australia to the log- created, 1,000 jobs have been lost in the in- ging industry. dustry even though the rate of destruction The aim of this piece of legislation is to has increased. That is because the sawlog- ensure that the federal parliament and the gers and the downstream processors in Tas- federal minister for the environment and for mania are losing out. More than 90 per cent forests is hogtied as far as the destruction of of the destroyed forests, the trees being cut Australia’s forests in the future is concerned. down in these grand eucalypt and rainforests, It removes the power of the minister to inter- in Tasmania is going to the woodchip mill. vene to protect forests and wildlife, including The latest count was 93 per cent. That means endangered species and world heritage for- that, for every truck that gets to the sawmill ests, effectively for good, while the chain- for downstream processing, seven are going saws move in and the destruction of those to the woodchip mills where the chips are forests, as in my home state of Tasmania, sent to Japan and now, through Gunns, to continues at the greatest rate in history. China. At the outset of this debate I need to say The opinion polls show that in my home that this legislation must be considered care- state, as in the rest of the country, 70 to 90 fully. There is no way that an overnight look per cent of people are opposed to this proc- at the legislation and its ramifications can ess. But we will find in the voting pattern on allow members of this house to go to their the vote we are about to have and in the electorates and get feedback on this piece of coming days in debate on this matter that legislation. Is it important to the electorate? more than 70 per cent of the politicians are Yes, it is. It is very, very important to my with the woodchippers. So there we have the electorate, to the half a million or so Green dynamic: most Australians are opposed to voters in Australia and, in particular, to the this process and most politicians are in fa- tens of thousands of people who made a rec- vour of it. We may ask: how can that be? The ord Green vote in the elections in Tasmania. fact is that a corrupt process is afoot, This was one of the major issues in mind. If whereby there is money going into the cof- you are in Tasmania you see what the re- fers of the political parties which is influ- gional forest agreement is doing to Tasma- encing the outcome of the political process. nia’s wild forests—the greatest rate of de- And the money is coming from the very log- struction in history of the grandest forests in ging companies that are going to gain from the Southern Hemisphere. This year 150,000 this piece of legislation. During the course of log trucks, including B-doubles, will take this debate over the coming month I will be those destroyed forests to the woodchip mills seeking some explanation from the political to be exported to Japan and China, where parties about that process of influence, be- they are processed into paper and ultimately cause it needs to be discovered. end up on the rubbish tips of the Northern If you look at it more carefully, the proc- Hemisphere. The woodchips are being ex- ess in Tasmania is much more dangerous in ported not only at the greatest rate in history this legislation than just validating the re- but also at the lowest price in history for the gional forest agreement. I again ask for a fewest jobs in history. copy of the legislation to be given to me. We 132 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 are debating this matter without any member tinue to do so. The Leader of the Govern- of the chamber having a copy in front of ment in the Senate should know that you them, and I do not think that is fair or cannot debate whether a bill is urgent or not proper—but it shows how this debate is go- without looking at what the bill means. It ing to be run. It is going to be run with an will be interesting to see if the leader of the unenlightened Senate, ignorant of the impact government gets up and defends the urgency of this legislation. Members of the Labor of this legislation when the opportunity Party will join members of the Liberal Party arises. and the National Party, ignorant of the eco- Senator Ian Campbell—Mr Acting Dep- nomic and employment impacts of this leg- uty President, on the point of order: is the islation on their electorates, and simply vote senator now canvassing your ruling? for the legislation as it goes through to bene- fit the big end of town, which is the wood- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- chip corporations. DENT—As I heard the senator, I understood him to be saying he was abiding by my rul- When you look at the impact on the ing. economies in Tasmania, Victoria, New South Wales and Western Australia where the Senator BROWN—You are right, Mr woodchip industry operates and where re- Acting Deputy President, and the honourable gional forest agreements have been signed or leader is simply wasting time. put forward, you can see that the public loses Senator Ian Campbell—Mr Acting Dep- out all the way down the line. There is in this uty President, on the point of order: you ac- legislation provision for compensation. Who tually upheld my point of order, which was gets the compensation? The woodchip corpo- that Senator Brown should restrict himself to rations do. Under this legislation, there is matters relating to the suspension of the pro- compensation if a future federal government visions of standing order 111. He certainly moves under public pressure to protect a was not, and that is why you called him to world heritage forest, such as the Weld Val- order. He is canvassing, and he should not ley or the Great Western Tiers in Tasmania, canvass your ruling. or the Tarkine Wilderness in the north-west The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- of Tasmania, or the tallest forests of the lot in DENT—I drew the senator’s attention to the the Styx Valley. Mr Acting Deputy President, terms of this debate, and, in his comments I do not appreciate members walking be- subsequent to that, he indicated that it was tween you and me when I am debating an his intention to confine his remarks to mat- important matter. ters relating to the suspension of standing The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT orders. I will be listening very carefully to (Senator Chapman)—Senator O’Brien, that ensure that he abides by that commitment. is not an appropriate standard. I ask that you Senator BROWN—Thank you, Mr Act- maintain the standards of the chamber. ing Deputy President. I do hope the honour- Senator Ian Campbell—Mr Acting Dep- able member opposite stops wasting the uty President, I rise on a point of order. Is it chamber’s time, because this is a very im- within standing orders to debate the detail of portant matter. I want to get back to the the bill when we are actually debating a no- matter at hand, which is the lack of urgency tice to suspend the provisions of standing with this legislation. But with that comes the order 111? very important consideration for the Austra- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- lian public, and that is that it has time to DENT—The question is that the bill be ex- know what is in legislation that is before this empt from standing order 111. I would ask chamber and that it has time to feed back to Senator Brown to confine his remarks to the the members of this chamber so that the de- issues relating to that motion. bate can be in the interests of the wider Aus- tralian public—not simply the well-heeled Senator BROWN—And you will find me lobby groups and the woodchip corporations, doing that. I have done so far and I will con- which have got the Labor Party to join the Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 133 government in railroading this legislation in the small state of Tasmania. How is it that through this chamber. A simple question in Tasmania we have the biggest per capita arises: of all the legislation that a new gov- income from exports of any state in the ernment can bring forward in the interests of Commonwealth, in an average period of sta- the people of Australia in the first week of a tistics, but the poorest people in Australia? It Senate sitting, is the regional forest agree- is because the Labor Party and the Liberal ments legislation, which has been before this Party serially intervene on behalf of big ex- chamber three times in the last three years, tractive industries like the woodchippers to the most urgent? Is that what the government feather their bed against the interests of the is saying? That is what the government is public who own those resources. Here we trying to put forward here, and patently it is have it writ large, because the compensation not true. Patently, that is false. in this legislation goes to the woodchip cor- The urgent component of this legislation porations if they are denied access to de- is that the public be aware of what it contains stroying heritage forests and wildlife in Tas- and that there be full and proper debate on its mania. contents and its ramifications. What I was Where is the compensation mechanism for saying earlier, before I was interrupted by the the workers who are being sacked from that leader opposite—who will have his opportu- industry by the woodchip corporations while nity—was that this legislation has in it a the CFMEU and the Labor Party sit on their compensation mechanism for the woodchip hands and say nothing? Where is the com- corporations. Is that an urgent matter? Only pensation mechanism in this legislation for if the woodchip corporations believe that local government in Tasmania, which pays they are moving into forests of world heri- millions of dollars each year on the upgrade tage value, like the Tarkine, the Great West- of roads damaged by huge log trucks hurtling ern Tiers and the Styx Valley—which con- along them to the woodchip mills, and for tains the tallest forest in the Southern Hemi- the Roads and Transport Division of the state sphere and, indeed, the tallest forest any- Department of Infrastructure, Energy and where outside North America. That forest is Resources? about to be razed, chainsawed down from The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- end to end, by the woodchip corporations. DENT—Order! Senator Brown, please con- The only way that you could argue that fine your remarks to the motion before the this matter is urgent is if the government and chair. the opposition believe that the increasing tide Senator BROWN—Mr Acting Deputy of public horror at what regional forest President, I am going to do that and I will agreements mean for those forests is going to continue to do that, but if the Leader of the prevent them being logged. In that situation, Government in the Senate wants to indicate this legislation will lead to the woodchip to you that he has a point he should get to his corporations being compensated out of tax- feet and make it. Where is the urgency—and payers’ money for those forests as if they the government can respond to this—in put- were a pile of woodchips. In other words, if a ting through a piece of legislation which is minister of the federal parliament responds going to leave local government, state gov- to public pressure instead of to the woodchip ernment and the people of Tasmania out of corporations’ moves to protect world heri- pocket without compensation but which will tage value forests in Tasmania, if this legis- have the big woodchip companies, like lation is passed, then the woodchip corpora- Gunns, potentially putting their hands out for tion will put its hand out for tens of millions millions of dollars and then exporting those of dollars in payout from the taxpayers’ profits to shareholders out of state? Where is pockets—even though the woodchip corpo- the urgency in this piece of legislation? It is ration never paid a red cent towards those not there. forests. It is up to the government and their fellow What is urgent here is that we look at the travellers in this matter, the Labor Party— economics and the dynamics of this industry who failed in the defence of even the work- 134 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 ers’ interests in this matter—to justify the the Labor Tasmanian government serves, that urgency of this legislation. I am making this is who the Labor opposition in this place move at the dawn of this new parliament serves and that is who the government in this because I believe the government and the place is serving. We will debate this in full in Labor Party should justify their actions when the coming debate, but I object to the process they try to upset the forms of this Senate to now being used whereby this spurious claim urgently deal with a piece of legislation of urgency means that this is the first piece which patently is not urgent. It was not ur- of legislation we deal with in this parliament gent enough for the government and the op- when there are so many more important is- position to put it through during the last pe- sues that we should be debating. riod of parliament. It was not urgent enough Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (9.57 for the last Minister for Forestry and Conser- a.m.)I think we ought to come back to what vation, Wilson Tuckey, to bring it on in the the motion is about. I certainly would not be last six months of the last parliament. He voting for this motion if I considered it to be brought it on in the last week when it was a travesty of the forms of this Senate, as has too late. It was not urgent enough for him to been suggested by Senator Brown. I do not bring it on during the last six months of that believe it is. This matter has been around for parliament until the death knock, so why has five years and we saw the legislation last it now suddenly become urgent? What is in year. I certainly have a copy of the Regional the ‘minor amendment’ from the minister Forest Agreements Bill 2002—I do not know that makes the legislation so urgent that it whether Senator Brown has a copy—and I should be debated today? have had a look at it. It is not very different This is a travesty of the forms of the Sen- from the matter we were discussing last year. ate. That is why I am objecting to it. This is Everybody knows the story, and we can not an urgent piece of legislation. The whole debate the merits or otherwise of the legisla- notion of urgency, which allows pieces of tion when it comes on. This is not the time to legislation to be put through quickly when it debate the merits or otherwise of the legisla- is in the public interest, is being abused by tion, but the issues are the same now as they the government that moves this motion and were previously. I appeal to you to get this by the opposition that, so weakly, is going to matter out of the road. There are lots of peo- support it. It is being abused in the interests ple who want certainty in this particular area, of the big end of town—the woodchip corpo- particularly the workers. That is what is of rations; the donors to the Labor Party, the concern, I hope, to the whole of the Senate. Liberal Party and the National Party. I object If I thought that this was a travesty of the to that. If there is now an urgency which did forms of this Senate, I would not vote for not exist in the last period of parliament, this particular resolution, but I do not think it when this could have been brought through is because this matter has been around for so and debated at leisure, let the government or long. The sooner we get to debate the merits the opposition state what it is. If they say, of the issue, the better. ‘Well, it didn’t get through last time,’ let them explain why they did not get it through, Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (9.59 because they had the numbers. a.m.)—The Australian Democrats very strongly oppose this motion, possibly for The Labor Party is acting in an appalling slightly different or for extra reasons beyond fashion here. It should hang its head in those that have already been put forward. I shame. It has sold out the workers—1,000 acknowledge that the Regional Forest have lost their jobs since the regional forest Agreements Bill 2002 in the form in which it agreement was signed in Tasmania—and has been presented is basically the same as a what has the Labor Party or the CFMEU bill that has been around for a while. Obvi- done about that? They have never stepped ously, the issue of forestry has been around off a footpath. But when the corporations for a while, but I think that makes it all the say, ‘Jump! Make this urgent!’ they jump, more important that this not be rushed. The because that is who they serve. That is who issue has been around for while, but an ex- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 135 amination of how RFAs have been operating looking at what the reality is with forestry in practice for that period has not happened. operations in Australia. And, from the I was part of the Rural and Regional Af- Democrats’ point of view, the reality is pretty fairs and Transport Legislation Committee tragic and getting worse: it has been getting inquiry into the original legislation in, I worse for quite a period of time but, since think, about 1998 or early 1999, and the is- the original Regional Forest Agreements Bill sues that have arisen in the three years since 1998 appeared, things have been getting then are enormously important, and the Sen- enormously worse. To not acknowledge, ad- ate and its committees have not had an op- dress and examine those things is, frankly, portunity to examine those. In their previous irresponsible. term, the government went out of their way As senators will be aware, I have a motion to deny that there were any issues there at on the Notice Paper to refer this bill off to a all, despite their being repeatedly raised by committee. Obviously, that can still be done, people in this section of the chamber. There regardless of whether or not the bill is ex- are enormous concerns about how the exist- empted from the cut-off. I am as always at- ing regional forest agreements are operating. tempting to be constructive in relation to To move towards fast-tracking legislation this: it is not just a tactic to put it off into the that will lock them in place for an incredibly never-never. It would be a very short time long time is, I believe, very irresponsible. span, but it would enable the Senate to at So, from the Democrats’ point of view, least make a more informed decision about this is not so much an objection in terms of what it is doing. That is basically the core of process as an objection in terms of the con- the issue. We can forget to some extent our tent and the importance of the issue. When differing views about forestry operations and the bill was around last year, we did not get the immense control that the woodchipping the opportunity to examine it in the context corporations have over processes at the mo- of all the broader issues, so in a sense we ment. We can put them to one side and de- would be debating the bill in complete isola- bate those when the bill comes up, but in tion from the reality of the outside world. terms of our responsibilities as a legislative The bill is simply an attempt to lock in ex- chamber to make informed decisions about isting forestry practices for an extended pe- legislation—laws of the land which will have riod, under pain of immense financial cost to major impacts on a lot of people for a long the taxpayer if there is any change. There are period—to do so in ignorance of what the lots of ironies in relation to that, particularly reality is in relation to that area of activity in the fact that this government, so-called be- the community is unacceptable and inappro- lievers in market forces, should be taking priate. such an enormous protectionist measure as When we consider legislation, we all have the one they are taking in this regard. But a responsibility to make sure—as much as perhaps that is a debate in terms of the sub- we can—that we do it in as informed a way stance of the bill which I can go into at a as possible, and we have a particular respon- later stage, whenever we do finally get sibility to inform ourselves about what the around to debating the bill itself. reality is in the real world, what our decision Obviously, the government wishes for that is going to mean in terms of its impacts. This to occur sooner rather than later, but enabling is not just an intellectual debate here. This is this legislation to be fast-tracked without it not just a debating society. It is not just a being examined in the context of all the is- question of who can shout the loudest or who sues it is meant to be addressing is, in the can turn people around to different ideolo- Democrats’ view, a significant problem. It is gies. It is a matter of decisions we make af- a piece of legislation that is specifically fecting people in the real world—in the out- meant to provide so-called certainty for the side world. In that sense, I think it is com- forestry industry in certain regions of Aus- pletely inappropriate for us to not be ensur- tralia, and yet we are expected to debate and ing that we are informed about what the cir- approve it—or otherwise—without actually 136 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 cumstances are in those areas of activity that some of them are minor procedural bills, but the legislation will affect. some of them are major. This is a very small By agreeing to this motion, we will cer- bill with major impacts. I think it gets us off tainly put ourselves in a position where the to a very bad start as a new parliament for government will be able to bring on the bill our first act to basically enable the govern- as soon as it wants, and we all know they ment to ensure that the Senate cannot per- want to bring it on tomorrow, and, therefore, form its appropriate role of reviewing legis- we will be in a situation where we will be lation in an informed way. debating the bill without an awareness of If that is the start that we are going to have what its impacts are going to be. It is a fun- in relation to the operations of this new par- damental principle that you do not pass laws liament, I think it is a pretty bad sign. It is a without some idea of what the impacts of worrying sign for the people of Australia, those laws are going to be and of what the because laws affect people. If the numbers activities of the industry or operation that the keep increasing by the same rate as they law seeks to regulate or affect are. have over the last decade or two, the chances It is probably an appropriate point, given are that we will have over 600 pieces of leg- that we are moving now into a new parlia- islation in this parliament. If this year is ment, to again reconsider what our role as a anything to go by, the number of days will chamber actually is. We have had all the decrease. The number of sitting days the historical backward glancing in the last year government is suggesting for the Senate this about this 100 years of Federation and, of year is an absolute disgrace—the lowest course, that means 100 years of federal par- number of sitting days in a non-election year liament. We have looked at how that has since, I think, the 1950s. It is a joke in terms evolved over those 100 years, and we have of our role and responsibility. This gets us looked at the role of the federal Senate over off to a very bad start in terms of our actual those 100 years—it is now even more im- role. portant than ever. The Senate has now quite It is worth noting that in addition to those clearly evolved into the only mechanism that nearly 600 pieces of legislation, the number provides any protection for the people of of pieces of delegated legislation, regulations Australia against absolute power on the part et cetera have gone through the roof. They of the executive. are into the thousands. The list of the differ- That is a very heavy responsibility. It is ent bits of regulations, orders and disallow- certainly one the Democrats take seriously. I able instruments that was tabled yesterday, think it is appropriate to acknowledge that, our first day, would have had over 100 on it. given that this is the first real debating day of There is no way that any of us can pretend this new parliament. Given that I am looking that those are going to be examined and the at this from an historical note at the moment, implications of them understood by anybody if we compare the number of bills that went in this chamber. Half of the time they are through this chamber in the three years of the probably not understood by the ministry that last parliament—the number of different is putting them forward. They certainly can- pieces of legislation—and the number that not be absorbed, analysed and assessed by went through in the first federal parliament this chamber. from 1901 to 1903, they are absolutely be- That is not devaluing the very important yond compare. work that the Regulations and Ordinances I do not know the precise figures off the Committee does in keeping an eye on those top of my head. I know the number of bills matters. They keep an eye on them in a pro- put before this chamber in the last three cedural sense and for basic legal appropri- years was in the high 500s. In that time we ateness. They do not assess them in a policy would have had at best, I would think, 200 way—neither does this chamber, nobody sitting days. We are almost to the stage of does. I think it is a growing problem that the three bills per day that we are supposed to public is unaware of and which they need to consider in an informed way. Obviously, become aware of. We are a law-making body Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 137 and we are not in a position to do our job way? In the Democrats’ view they are clearly properly. not—and in many other people’s view, not If this government keeps up what it has just those in political parties, they are not. proposed for this year, less than 60 sitting We have seen the situation in the Gippsland days for the Senate in one year, it will mean in recent times where the forestry workers fewer sitting days and more legislation. It have got together with conservationists to will get up towards four bills per day in ef- work out a different path because they have fect. There will be thousands of pieces of acknowledged on all sides that the regional regulations and ordinances that will be forestry agreement they are operating under barely looked at in a policy sense. All of this is making things worse from every perspec- has some effect on people in various ways— tive. some small, some enormous. They would not It does not matter which approach you be being done if they did not have some ef- take, which angle you come at this issue fect. I think it is a growing problem that from. You can come at it from an environ- really needs to be acknowledged. mental view, you can come at it from an em- Without straying too far from the topic ployment view and you can come at it from under consideration, I think it is an issue that an economic view: they are failing on all we, as legislators, need to turn our minds to. grounds. For us to agree to putting a piece of We are obviously running a real risk when legislation through that addresses this crucial legislation, not just regulations, is going to area—a crucial area of public policy that is be passed without proper objective assess- blatantly, in the Democrats’ view, failing on ment. Obviously you cannot trust the gov- all grounds—is incredibly irresponsible. That ernment to always act in the interests of the is why we are so strongly opposed to this people. Separate to that, they do not always legislation being considered by this chamber get it right as well. If it is hard for this cham- straightaway without an attempt to acknowl- ber to be aware of what is happening in the edge that, without an attempt to hear from real world then it is even more remote for the people on the ground. Forget about all people in the bureaucracies and ivory towers our views for the moment; we need to hear who devise the legislation to be aware. what other people’s views are, what the pub- lic’s views are. Coming back to the particular legislation that we are proposing to bring on immedi- Three or four years down the track from ately for debate, I am absolutely certain that when the legislation was originally proposed, the federal department responsible for this is so many things have changed. We have had blissfully unaware of what the reality is on Western Australia with a Labor government the ground in terms of the impact on the en- being elected in that time in part—a very vironment, the impact on the workers and the significant part—because of its policy shift impact on the communities in the regions to abolish logging in old-growth forests, a where these forestry agreements operate. The key area that this legislation goes to the heart federal department makes a point of being of. When this bill first appeared and we had blissfully unaware. They do not want to our inquiry into it, that had not happened: know. Labor in WA supported ongoing logging— the government in WA supported it. There This legislation is their final way of being has been a big change, a very positive able to keep their blindfold on for 20 years. change, since that time. They can say, ‘It is all locked in, we do not need to bother now. We will forget about it. Since that time three or four years ago in We will leave it up to somebody else.’ We my state of Queensland, we have seen the cannot afford to leave it up to somebody Queensland government, in conjunction with else, in the Democrats’ view. That is the sort environmentalists and the timber industry, of thing that we need to examine, at a mini- develop a very positive agreement that mum. Is it something that we can leave up to phases out logging in old-growth forests, that somebody else? What are those other people builds a sustainable timber industry. Of doing? Are they operating in an appropriate course, it shows how farcical this govern- 138 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 ment’s approach to it is that the one forestry a very bad tone for where we might be go- agreement that has been developed and ing, not just in the environment but also in agreed upon broadly by all sides is that terms of any consideration for the commu- which the federal government would not ac- nity. knowledge. Now that we have a new minis- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (10.19 ter in this area—and a Queenslander as a.m.)—Well, I have heard it all. Senator well—in Senator Ian Macdonald, I hope that Bartlett’s contribution on behalf of the he will act in the interests of his own state of Democrats about this bill supposedly being Queensland, endorse that agreement and rushed through without objective assessment provide some backup and assistance. The and without our taking into account the facts one positive agreement is the one that the when we consider the debate remind me of government refuses to acknowledge, and so the arrangement that the Democrats entered it actually would not be affected by this piece into with the government for the passage of of legislation. They are the sorts of double the Environment Protection and Biodiversity standards we have operating here. Conservation Bill. I think we were allowed Since this bill originally came forward an average of 20 seconds to debate each of three or four years ago, we have had enor- the amendments, which we had not seen, and mous developments in New South Wales, in we were not going to be allowed to vote in- Victoria, in Tasmania—in all of these areas dividually on each amendment. That was the and from all aspects. It is a complete furphy arrangement that the Democrats entered into to suggest that this is just a fringe opposition on that piece of legislation. by hardline environmentalists like Senator This legislation has, in effect, been before Brown or the Democrats. The concern is this parliament twice, has been to Senate across the community—in Tasmania more committees twice and was the subject of de- than anywhere else—and from all aspects, bate in the last election—when the opposi- about the social damage that is being caused, tion and the government made it clear that the economic absurdities that are operating they would support its expeditious passage. and the irreversible environmental damage. The opposition, in supporting this motion, is We will not be able to examine any of that. keeping its word, having allowed extensive We will obviously try and bring it to the at- community debate in relation to it. I want to tention of the Senate during the debate. But contrast that with the sort of treatment that we will not be able to hear from the people we received in relation to the Environment on the ground, the communities that are be- Protection and Biodiversity Conservation ing devastated because of the distorted way Bill when it came through this place. I find it in which the woodchip industry has twisted astonishing that the Democrats have the gall forestry operations. We will deliberately be to stand up and say what Senator Bartlett has making ourselves ignorant of the views of just said about bills being rushed through the reality of what is happening in the com- without objective assessment, when they munity. were party to that treatment we received. This is a major issue and, for that reason In press reports on Monday, 11 February, alone, we should be making sure it does not Senator Bartlett comments that if the Demo- just become one of the 600 faceless bills that crats ‘fail to get the bill killed’ they will at- we vaguely glance at as they roll through this tempt to have it examined by a Senate com- sausage machine, with more and more being mittee ‘to ensure its full ramifications are forced through in a shorter and shorter time assessed’. So, point 1 is ‘get the bill killed’ frame. When we all know this is such a big and point 2 is have a Senate inquiry. They issue, it is all the more irresponsible for us to are the priorities that the Democrats set down keep ourselves blindfolded to the outside when they spoke to the media through world in considering this particular legisla- Senator Bartlett on Monday. tion. So the Democrats very strongly oppose this motion. We think it is an appalling Senator Brown has suggested that this bill starting point for a new parliament and it sets is not so urgent as to require exemption from the procedural rules that prevent it from be- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 139 ing debated within 14 days of its introduc- Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (10.25 tion. The fact is that this bill is, as I under- a.m.)—In relation to the exemption of the stand it, substantially the same bill as was Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002 under introduced into the parliament in August last standing order 111, I believe it is proper to year. It is substantially the same bill which support this motion of the government, be- has been the subject of a reference to a Sen- cause in no way does it reduce this cham- ate legislation committee. This is substan- ber’s ability to have a full and frank debate tially the same bill, as I understand it, on on it. On the issue of urgency, I believe it is which both the opposition and the minor urgent for two reasons. Firstly, it is urgent for parties have had the opportunity to prepare the people who are participating within the amendments. industry. Secondly, there are environmental If I understand Senator Brown’s com- issues that we need to address. As long as ments in the same media articles on Monday, there is uncertainty within the industry in he indeed has already prepared amendments Australia, we will continue to see huge im- to the legislation. So, to the extent that he ports of timber from overseas—and I would might suggest that he is disadvantaged by the be interested later on to direct, through the expeditious processing of this legislation, I chair, a question to Senator Brown as to how suggest his own comments reveal that that is he reconciles the total devastation of the en- not the case—that Senator Brown is well vironment in countries such as Indonesia aware of the legislation and that in fact he while Australia continues to import from simply does not want it to be passed. I un- those areas. We have an environmentalist derstand that and I respect Senator Brown’s saying, ‘You can’t log in Australia because motives in pursuing his agenda and the that is destroying the environment,’ but at the agenda of his party—it is his entitlement to same time he is effectively causing utter do that—but I do not believe there is merit in devastation in countries that do not have a the suggestion that somehow dealing with managed approach towards harvesting tim- this legislation now will prevent him from ber products. For those two reasons, One putting his point of view. Neither would it Nation supports the government’s position in prevent the Democrats nor any other party bringing this bill on. from putting its point of view. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western In terms of Senator Bartlett’s comments Australia—Manager of Government Busi- that somehow the passage of this legislation ness in the Senate) (10.27 a.m.)—I congratu- will put on the blindfold, I accept that this late Senator Brown and Senator Bartlett for somewhat goes to the question of debating achieving their aim of speaking for their full the bill. But it was raised in the debate so I 20 minutes. For Senator Brown it was not feel I should respond to it. Each of the RFAs much of a struggle, but Senator Bartlett was has five-year review provisions. Far from clearly struggling after about nine minutes of putting the blindfold on proceedings for 20 trying. We should understand, and those years, there are, in regional forest agree- hundreds of thousands of people across ments, provisions for regular reviews so that Australia tuning in to the Parliamentary the concerns which are being expressed can News Network should understand— be addressed and there can be public debate Senator Forshaw—They’re switched off. about those matters. There are a great many Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Senator reasons why the opposition supports the leg- Bartlett probably was not too good for the islation, but we believe that it is appropriate ratings, I have to say. It is only 7.30 a.m. in that the legislation be dealt with now, that it Perth, where it really counts. We have is important that it be dealt with now and that probably lost all the listeners. I say sorry to there is no disadvantage to other parties in PNN— dealing with the legislation now, given that it is substantially the same as the bill which Senator Brown—Mr Acting Deputy was introduced into the parliament in August President, I raise a point of order. Besides the last year. We will be supporting the motion. snide remarks about Senator Bartlett, the parliamentary secretary on his feet took a 140 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 number of points of order about straying Could I go to the point about this being from the subject, and I would ask you to some sort of affront to the forms of the Sen- bring him back to it. This is an urgency de- ate. The reality of the sitting schedule for this bate. week and the reality of the standing orders is The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT that if Senator Bartlett had his way the Sen- (Senator Chapman)—I ask the parliamen- ate would not actually be able to deal with tary secretary to confine his remarks to the any legislation at all this week. The Senate question before the chair. I am sure that he regularly decides whether or not bills can be will, as I previously asked Senator Brown. exempted from the cut-off order and makes those decisions. What we are talking about Senator IAN CAMPBELL—That is here is not spending two back to back quite right. I certainly would not want to be speeches of 20 minutes explaining why a referred to as the pot calling the kettle black. couple of senators and their parties do not There are a number of things that Senator want to deal with something. What we are Brown and Senator Bartlett said during the trying to do—and I am grateful for the Labor debate that were either misleading or just Party’s support in this issue—is to allow the plain wrong. The issue about the legislation bill to be debated. I am sure it is just an ide- has been dealt with by Senator Harradine— alistic pipedream from my point of view, Mr that is, that the legislation has been around Acting Deputy President—and you would for some years. In fact, I think the Tasmanian probably agree with me—but it would be RFA is actually up for review now. This leg- very good if the Senate could ensure that islation has been around for so long that the important legislation was debated. Commonwealth has not been able to pass the legislation to uphold the Commonwealth’s We will have, I am sure, the first signifi- commitments to the RFA process for a period cant filibuster of the 2002 parliamentary of years, basically because we could not get term, the 40th , on it through the Senate. this bill because any time you have a bill with anything to do with an RFA Senator Senator Forshaw—You should have in- Brown finds as many opportunities as possi- troduced it then. ble to get up and speak for his full allotted Senator IAN CAMPBELL—We have time. It is the great art of filibuster. The trou- introduced it more times than I have had hot ble is we will spend a couple of weeks doing breakfasts in the last year. It is a matter of the RFA Bill. It will not be an informative record that the review of one of the RFAs is debate because it will be tedious repetition. It coming up before we can actually get the will be filibustering. He will do whatever he legislation through the Commonwealth par- can to slow the passage of the legislation, liament. To use Senator Brown’s words, this and at the end of the sitting periods leading is far from fast-tracking legislation. It is into the Easter recess we will have a backlog more like Bob Dylan’s famous album Slow of 20 other bills which will not get proper Train Coming. This has been a very long and consideration. slow and tortuous process. The government Senator Bartlett makes some fair points did make a commitment on the second last about the parliament’s consideration of bills. sitting day, two sitting days ago, on 26 Sep- It has got to be within the hands of the Sen- tember. Senator Hill gave an undertaking to ate to ensure that all of the bills get an ade- this chamber and to the people of Australia quate time for debate. I have been the man- that we would introduce this legislation on ager here for a long time, and I know the the first sitting day, which we are doing. It is reality in this place is that in a normal sitting the first day of government business today. week we do one or two major bills during the We are upholding that. I think that is the ap- government business period. The statistics propriate thing to do. Certainly I, as the will bear this out. I would be happy for manager, made commitments publicly and in Senator Bartlett to look at these statistics. We this place to do exactly what we are doing tend to do one or two major bills during now. So I think it is quite appropriate that we Monday through to Thursday and they usu- do that. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 141 ally get very thorough debate. In the Thurs- last four years. It includes a new form which day lunchtime period, we have what is called will be used in all bills introduced into the the non-controversial timeslot when pieces parliament from the autumn sittings in 2002. of legislation which are fairly rudimentary It is a technical matter; it does not go to the and, as we have come to call them, non- substance of the legislation at all. The other controversial—where every single senator in is some minor amendments which relate to the place has said, ‘Yes, we have no objec- the interaction between the Environment tion to that; put it through’—are dealt with. Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Most of those bills go through in two or three Act 1999, which has come into force since minutes on what we call a tick and a flick, the RFA was first drawn up. Of course, those which is probably very unparliamentary lan- two pieces of legislation need to work to- guage and not a great description of the pro- gether. These changes are minor and techni- cess, but they get through all of their stages cal. Otherwise the bill really has not changed in a short period because they are non- very much at all. To be able to deal with it controversial. When you look at the statistics we do need this motion to pass. It is very that Senator Bartlett refers to, on the face of appropriate that the Senate does this. But I them they can look like the parliament is not remind you, as I started off, that what we are giving things proper scrutiny. I do not think doing here is trying to pass a motion so the Senator Bartlett set out to cause affront to bill and its provisions can be debated. I say: members of the Regulations and Ordinances let the debate begin. Committee or other senators who do spend Question put: enormous amounts of time looking at legis- That the motion (Senator Ian Campbell’s) be lation. Not only do the Senate committees agreed to. spend a lot of time looking at every piece of legislation or regulations of any interest to The Senate divided. [10.40 a.m.] them but there are backbench committees. I (The President—Senator the Hon. Marga- am sure the Democrats themselves have ret Reid) committees in their own party processes. I Ayes………… 45 am sure the caucus has subcommittees that Noes………… 9 deal with any issue that comes before them. Majority……… 36 I think that Australians are very well served by the process. I think the weight of AYES legislation, although it is heavy, is dealt with Abetz, E. Boswell, R.L.D. very effectively by the committee structure Brandis, G.H. Buckland, G. and by the Senate as a whole. This Senate is Calvert, P.H. Campbell, G. very accessible to the people of Australia. It Chapman, H.G.P. Collins, J.M.A. is one of the great benefits of the structure of Conroy, S.M. Coonan, H.L. our federation. There are 12 senators from Crossin, P.M. Crowley, R.A. each state. They all make themselves acces- Denman, K.J. Eggleston, A. sible. They are spread throughout the states Evans, C.V. Ferguson, A.B. and, if anyone has any concern with any pro- Ferris, J.M. * Gibbs, B. posed piece of legislation, one of us usually Gibson, B.F. Harradine, B. hears about it. I think we have a lot to be Harris, L. Herron, J.J. proud of. I do not think the statistics that Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. Senator Bartlett puts forward in relation to Knowles, S.C. Ludwig, J.W. all these hundreds of pieces of legislation Lundy, K.A. Macdonald, I. paint a fair picture. Macdonald, J.A.L. Mackay, S.M. Mason, B.J. McGauran, J.J.J. I should point out that in this particular McKiernan, J.P. McLucas, J.E. piece of legislation there are two relatively O’Brien, K.W.K. Payne, M.A. small changes. The first is a change to the Ray, R.F. Reid, M.E. commencement provisions, which one would Schacht, C.C. Scullion, N.G. expect, the bill having been in and out for the Sherry, N.J. Tierney, J.W. 142 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Troeth, J.M. Watson, J.O.W. cess. I am also proud to have been part of the West, S.M. Howard government, which has been a great NOES government for Australia. It has carried out many reforms, and is going to continue to Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. reform Australia, as outlined in the Gover- Bourne, V.W. * Brown, B.J. Cherry, J.C. Greig, B. nor-General’s opening speech. Lees, M.H. Ridgeway, A.D. Today I want to do two things: firstly, to Stott Despoja, N. quickly run over some of the major issues * denotes teller that I have been involved in since I have Question agreed to. been in the Senate—things I have had the privilege to take part in and to make a con- In division— tribution to, for which I am very grateful— Senator Brown—Madam President, I and, secondly, to talk about Tasmania’s trou- draw attention to page 139 of standing or- bles, basically its economy. The first thing I ders, which require that any senator who has want to mention is national competition pol- a financial interest, in this case in the wood- icy. When we were in opposition the gov- chipping industry or the logging industry, to ernment of the day brought forward the na- declare it now. tional competition policy. I played a part as a GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH member of the opposition in agreeing with Consideration resumed from 12 February that policy, and I congratulate the Keating 2002. government for bringing that policy forward. I also want to congratulate the Productivity Senator GIBSON (Tasmania) (10.46 Commission for the excellent work it does a.m.)—I move: for Australia. In more recent times the Pro- That the following address-in-reply be agreed ductivity Commission, and particularly its to: chairman, Gary Banks, has highlighted the To His Excellency the Governor-General great benefits to all Australians from national MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY— competition policy, which has basically We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Aus- brought the government businesses of Aus- tralia in Parliament assembled, desire to ex- tralia under the Trade Practices Act and press our loyalty to our Most Gracious Sover- forced competition on those businesses. We eign and to thank Your Excellency for the have had cheaper services, communications speech which you have been pleased to ad- and transport as a result of that pressure. So dress to Parliament. it has been a great thing for Australia, and I First of all, I thank the Prime Minister and am very proud that I have been part of that our leader in the Senate, Senator Hill, for process. giving me the opportunity to speak. This The next thing I got involved in was the may be my last speech in this chamber. Some accounting system and the financial respon- months ago I gave notice that I intended to sibility legislation for parliament and gov- resign from the Senate in February. Straight ernment. When I was on the Public Accounts after the election I advised the Prime Minis- Committee in opposition I pushed very ter and my party that I would resign in Feb- strongly for the Public Accounts Committee ruary. I nominated 22 February, which is to do a major review of the accounting sys- Friday of next week, to be the day. I gave tem of the Commonwealth government and sufficient notice so that my replacement also a review of fiscal responsibility legisla- could be organised, and that is in process. tion. I pushed hard for that 12 months before Today I want to thank many people, and to the 1996 election to make sure that Finance say that I am proud to be a Tasmanian, proud and Treasury did their homework for the im- to be a member of the Liberal Party and plementation of full accrual accounting—in proud to represent the party and Tasmania other words, normal commercial account- here in this chamber. It has been a great time; ing—well before the 1996 election so that I am very proud to have been part of the pro- they, assuming we won the election, could Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 143 not claim that they needed time to do their the ANTS package was derived. The ANTS homework. That was successful, and I had a package was put out by the government, and hand in persuading the leaders at the time, after that there was the Ralph report, the the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Howard, business package. I am proud to have been and Mr Costello, that we should go with full part of the two Senate committees which accrual accounting and our fiscal responsi- investigated those packages. bility legislation, the Charter of Budget Hon- One of the sad things, though, out of that esty. I am very proud to have been part of process was that the ALP I think made a that process. fundamental error in strategy. Since we have Another initiative I was involved in was been in government they have decided to the National Commission of Audit, which oppose virtually everything—particularly was initiated by the Howard government as with the ANTS package. They fought it tooth soon as it came to power in 1996. Some six and nail through the committee process, and or eight months before the election I pro- in fact it was sad the way they treated a lot of posed that we do a commission of audit. I the witnesses at the time. made that suggestion to our leader at the Senator Conroy—Behave. time, and he agreed and said, ‘Okay, you go and set it up and organise it.’ I am very proud Senator GIBSON—It is true, Senator, of the fact that I assembled a great team led and you know that. I contrast that with what by Professor Bob Officer, who was the happened when we were in opposition. Na- chairman. The commission did a great job. tional competition policy is a good example. Looking back now at the report of that com- We in opposition supported that initiative of mission of audit and the things it suggested the Keating government because we knew it the government could do, one can see that was right for Australia. The same thing ap- most of the recommendations have been im- plied to things which happened before my plemented. time: the floating of the dollar, the freeing up of the finance markets and the lowering of After the 1996 election I was Parliamen- tariffs. They were all major policy initiatives, tary Secretary to the Treasurer and I was re- good for all Australians and strongly sup- sponsible for Corporations Law and the ported by the opposition when they were Australian Securities Commission. I initiated brought forward by the Labor Party. Contrast a review of what was wrong and what that with the last six years. The Labor Party needed to be done with regard to Corpora- have I think made a fundamental error. I tions Law and the operations of the Austra- hope we see a change in the future in the lian Securities Commission, and I am way they behave, particularly here in the pleased to say that the government carried on Senate. with that initiative when some months later I resigned as parliamentary secretary over a Senator Ian Macdonald—I wouldn’t minor perceived conflict of interest which hold my breath. really had no materiality, but I did it because Senator GIBSON—I am hopeful, Minis- I wanted to make sure that the government ter. was not damaged. Senator Ferguson—We think Conroy’s After that I became involved in tax re- changed. form. I was appointed by the Prime Minister Senator Conroy—Ever the optimist. as chairman of the first coalition tax consul- Senator GIBSON—I have been doing my tative task force. That committee took over best to try and train him, so I hope that does 660 submissions from the public and met happen. I have got involved in many issues with all people involved and interested in the to do with Tasmania, a lot of them not in the tax system. Our objectives were to define public arena. The things in the public arena what was wrong with the system at that time were, of course, the RFA process, which we and make suggestions for change. We basi- are still to see finalised, and the issues aris- cally assembled the evidence, which was ing from the sale of Telstra shares for the passed on to the government and from which environment, communications and the IT 144 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 industry for Tasmania. I have been proud of New Zealand, but they really are lessons for being a board member of the Intelligent Is- Tasmania too. He says: land project, which is trying to get an IT in- The first lesson is that, while geography affects dustry going in Tasmania. economic performance, governments can do little That allows me to move on to the future directly to reduce any adverse impact that it may of Tasmania. Yesterday in the Australian have. Alan Wood referred to a report done by The second lesson is that small and remote ACIL written by Jeffrey Rae entitled The economies have few inherent attractions and Tasmanian experience: Lessons for New some inherent disadvantages for investors. Zealand commissioned by the New Zealand Making it attractive for investors is the key Business Roundtable and published in Janu- to growth. ary this year. It has only become public in The third lesson is that appropriate labour market the last couple of weeks. It uses the example regulation that allows wages and other conditions of Tasmania relative to the rest of Australia of employment to be set in response to demand as a lesson for New Zealand in what they for, and supply of, particular classes of labour in should do. What essentially does it say? particular localities is necessary to foster em- When you contrast what has happened to ployment and economic growth. poor Tasmania over the last 13 years with In other words, national rates should not ap- regard to output—in other words, the size of ply in regions because otherwise you the economy—the Australian economy ex- frighten the investment away. panded by 53 per cent over that 13-year pe- The fourth lesson is that when economic per- riod; Tasmania’s by 17 per cent. Queensland formance suffers, residents will leave ... and Western Australia expanded much faster That is what has been happening. than the national average. Australian pro- The fifth and most important lesson is the crucial ductivity for the 10 years of the 1990s rose importance of sound institutions and sound public by 28 per cent; Tasmania, 16 per cent only. policies. Consumption in Tasmania has outstripped Of the institutional risks, perhaps the most imme- production by quite a large amount. The es- diate is the proportional representation system of timate in this report is that the net income voting. Proportional representation is not easily transfers to Tasmania have been running in grafted on to a Westminster parliamentary system recent years at about $500 million per year. without the risk of a severe unanticipated reduc- That is nearly $10,000 per capita, so it is a tion in the effectiveness and efficiency of gov- huge subsidy. In spite of that, employment ernment. growth in Tasmania has been very poor. For Proportional representation can institutionalise the 20 years up to 2001 Australian employ- minority government and political instability, ment grew by 40 per cent, but Tasmania’s weaken political leadership, blur lines of respon- only grew by 14 per cent and it is deterio- sibility ... rating. The participation rate in Australia is The confluence of institutions and public policy gradually rising, but the participation rate in can be profoundly anti-business in its effects, Tasmania has been declining for quite some even if that result is unintended. time and is getting worse. For the decade of And that is what we are seeing happen in the 1990s Australia had an increase of in- Tasmania, particularly through the influence vestment nationally of 80 per cent; Tasma- of the Greens as a minority pushing nia’s was nine per cent. When you look at antidevelopment and trying to kill off major private sector investment in Tasmania for projects which were successfully done, par- that decade, it was only one per cent, so there ticularly the Wesley Vale pulp mill. As a re- was virtually no increase in investment. So sult, the boardrooms of Sydney and Mel- investment is down, jobs are down and bourne say, ‘Why bother with Tasmania—it population has been going down also—in is basically too hard.’ The report also says: spite of largess from the Commonwealth. The final lesson is that solutions to poor institu- I would like to quote the lessons in this tions and poor public policy are entirely in the report by Jeffrey Rae. He cites lessons for hands of the community in question. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 145

So I raise this today with a message to my encouraged and supported my endeavour to fellow Tasmanians: the matter is in all our represent Territorians’ interests in Canberra. hands; let us do something about it. The and the people of Finally, I would like to thank a lot of peo- the offered a wonderful ple. First of all, I thank my wife and family. I level of support. Thank you. thank all my staff over the years, who have I would like to thank particularly my wife, been great. To my colleagues and friends Jenny, and my three children, Sarah, Daniel here: I will miss you, but stay in touch. To and Luke, who have travelled from Darwin the parliamentary staff, particularly a lot of to be with me today. I suspect my two young them I know well: you have been great. The boys are enjoying one of the universal pleas- committee staff have just been excellent. To ures of having an acceptable excuse for a the Liberal Party, particularly the Tasmanian few days off school. division: I have worked hard to try and In 1985, when I arrived with Jenny in the strengthen the party, and I am pleased to say Northern Territory, I knew that our search for it is improving and getting stronger. I know a home and a place to start a family was the five senators from Tasmania will con- over. You have never seen such a place! On tinue that hard work—they have all been the journey north to , through actively involved—and it is important that the Red Centre, you cannot help but be im- we keep the party structures well. pressed not only with the magnificent harsh- I am proud to have been here. I decided ness of the desert country but also with the many months ago that it was basically time Centralians who have built such a splendid for me to move on. I deliberately did not say town and a vibrant tourist industry, with anything about it until after the election be- products that rank amongst the finest in the cause I did not want to create any fuss, but world. Arguably, Australia’s finest and most immediately after the election I notified the comprehensive advertising campaign has PM. I am looking forward to a different life. been conducted by the Arrernte desert peo- Thank you very much. ple. Wherever you travel in the world you Honourable senators—Hear, hear! will see images of Central Australia depicted in the unique art of dot paintings. All Aus- The PRESIDENT—Before I call Senator tralians, particularly those involved in the Scullion, I remind honourable senators that tourist sector, have benefited significantly this is his first speech. I therefore ask that the from the efforts of those hardworking Terri- usual courtesies be extended to him. torians. Senator SCULLION (Northern Territory) Darwin has to be the true cosmopolitan (11.02 a.m.)—Thank you, Madam President. capital of the world. We have people from I second the motion that the address-in-reply half the nations in the world represented in to the opening speech by the Governor- our population, and the other half wants to General be agreed to. I have been honoured move there. It is the friendliest place in the by the Northern Territory community in be- world—the kind of place where you can ing elected to represent their interests in the leave the airport, jump in a cab, drive to one Senate. I wish to acknowledge the Ngun- of our many watering holes and sit down and nawal people, who are the traditional owners have a beer, and within an hour you will be of this land, and to thank one of the elders of sharing a table with a whole range of new the Ngunnawal people, Matilda House, for mates. It is just that sort of place. So I had her welcome last week and her presence in this vision of sitting on a vessel surrounded the gallery today. by perfect balmy weather and swaying palm As the Country Liberal Party senator in trees, catching barramundi and getting paid this chamber, I will be continuing the great for it. I thought: that seems to be a great way work of Bernie Kilgariff and Grant Tam- of life. A professional fisherman—that’s the bling. Both of these dedicated Territorians life for me, I thought. Well, the vision was have made a vital contribution to the life of soon shattered. As anyone who has made a all Australians. My thanks to everyone who living from the sea will attest, success is usu- 146 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 ally about very hard work, a few tears and a we ask the food producers of Australia to fair bit of luck. repair 50 years of our bad management and There were pretty significant downsides to our bad advice without adjustment packages, living off north-east Arnhem Land: the and that means compensation, then we are harshness of the environment, the unforgiv- asking for the job not to be done. ing nature of the sea. Challenges ranged I was delighted that, in his speech yester- from the unpredictable—like being grovelled day, His Excellency the Governor-General by a wounded buffalo when attempting to highlighted and reflected on Australian’s put some meat into an otherwise all-seafood concerns about the environment. The estab- diet—to the more predictable—like cy- lishment of a new Sustainable Environment clones, and trying to resolve fights with your Committee of cabinet chaired by the Prime missus in the confines of a 40-foot vessel. I Minister will most certainly place this most must say the downsides were substantially important of issues under the strongest focus outweighed by the upsides: the unlimited of government. As part of the Australian pleasures of waking up each day in one of Seafood Industry Council’s role in protecting the most beautiful, pristine and remote areas our natural resources, it lobbied the federal of Australia. Imagine it, if you can: emerald- government to take a strong stance with re- coloured rainforests that come down to a gard to protecting our sovereign resources in crystal clear, cobalt sea. It is just a glorious the Great Southern Ocean. I am delighted to place to work and a glorious place to live. report that this government now has a policy As a conservationist and a fisherman, I that sends a clear message to those who have developed and maintained a keen inter- come to Australian waters with the intent of est in the use and control of our natural re- stealing our fisheries resources: ‘If you come sources. I am the immediate past chairman of to steal, we are prepared. You will be caught, the Australian Seafood Industry Council, one you will be prosecuted, and it is very likely of the largest conservation groups in Austra- you will lose your vessel and your equip- lia, the work of which I have no doubt is well ment.’ This is a strong policy that has re- known to the members of the chamber. I can sulted in a substantial decline in the number remember—as perhaps many other people in of recidivist illegal fishers. the chamber will—that, as a young bloke, In an international sense, Australia has ‘environmentally friendly’ meant putting the been a leader in the high seas fishing agree- cigarette butt out in the beer can before you ments and is widely respected for its strong threw it out of the window. In the past, we position on maximising the benefits to Aus- had followed what we considered to be the tralia over the sustainable use of our marine world’s ‘best practice’. We were encouraged resources. Unfortunately, it seems that our to cut down those ‘ugly’ native trees and we policies with regard to our offshore oil and were encouraged to plant wheat and other gas reserves do not enjoy the same focus of European crops. We treated fisheries as if putting Australia first. Recent discussions they were a danger to swimming. ‘Bigger with representatives of the oil and gas indus- vessels, more capacity!’ cried the experts. try reveal that serious consideration is being Australia now understands that the worst given to constructing a floating liquid natural aspects of environmental degradation in this gas plant over the Bayu-Undan gas field country, evidenced by dryland salinity, de- north of Darwin. This has actually been pro- graded rivers, depleted fish stocks and a net posed as an alternative to bringing natural loss to our biodiversity, are the result of our gas onshore to be processed in Darwin and to own historical world’s best practice. I have connect Australia with cheap, efficient noticed with growing concern the call for power. Instead of creating jobs and an eco- primary producers to stop these practices nomic stimulus in the Northern Territory and overnight—‘Fisherfolk, lay down your Australia, these jobs will be created in Ko- lines!’; ‘Irrigators, just give up your water rean shipyards, and another nation will enjoy quota!’; ‘Graziers, clear no more land!’— the economic benefits that are necessarily without consideration for compensation. If associated with the construction of liquid Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 147 natural gas production plants. You would eas. You just cannot take the plug out of one have to agree that this is clearly not in our end of the bath and expect the water to re- national interest. main in the other. Processing the gas offshore and having Much of my time in the Territory has been gas loaded into ships destined for overseas spent on land that belongs to Aboriginal markets gives the impression that Australia people and on waters adjacent to that land. has an unlimited supply of gas or that there is Indeed, the times my wife and I valued most little domestic demand for this commodity. were those spent with our only neighbours at We all know that is not the case. What legacy the time, the Aboriginal people who inhabit shall we leave our children? Will they live in their lands and islands along the Arnhem a truly independent country—you know, in- Land coast. It still amazes me that in the Ter- dependent; not to rely on another—or will ritory you can drive for days in a vessel we leave our children with a country that through myriads of the most magnificent relies on other nations for its power supply? islands or for countless hours across country Or, instead, will we leave them with a coun- so rich not only in a cultural sense but also in try that has access to affordable power and an economic sense, with potential for indus- enjoys the jobs, the economic stability and tries such as tourism, aquaculture and for- the security that comes with industries that estry, and yet when you arrive at the home of thrive on affordable power? Every endeavour the proud owners of these vast, rich tracts of must be made to ensure that, if multinational land you are not greeted, as you may well companies wish to profit from our natural expect, by a community whose housing, resources, they accept that future use of ex- health and economic wellbeing reflect the tracted resources should be managed in a riches of their land. Instead, dwellings way that maximises the long-term interests sometimes consist of a few sheets of tin, and of all Australians. I will continue to work the overall community demonstrates the with this government to ensure that the re- lowest standards of mainstream education, sources that lie to the north of my beloved the lowest standards of health and an average Territory are extracted in a way that achieves life expectancy for men which is less than this outcome. my current age. I have also been closely associated with I do not stand before you claiming that I the issue of sea rights. In fact, I am one of have the answers to this most complex chal- the principal respondents to the Croker Is- lenge. In fact, if you ever get a phone call land test case of native title over seas. We from somebody who claims to have the an- entered this process willingly and will accept swer to the challenges facing indigenous the determination of the court in this matter. Australia, just hang up. Whilst I am sure that Aboriginal land under inalienable freehold the social debris from the collision between a title comprises 84 per cent of the Northern Stone Age culture and modern times is not Territory coastline, with virtually all of the going to be cleaned up through implement- rest of the coastline under land claim. Al- ing just one or two ideas, I suspect that the most the entire area of the intertidal zone of special Aboriginal freehold title issued to the Northern Territory, in some cases indigenous Territorians under the current stretching over a kilometre seaward, is also legislation is a sad comparison with the real under claim. My principal concern is that, if freehold title enjoyed by other Australians. these claims are granted, the fish stocks that The nature of the tenure of this land is a live or move through these waters will no principal impediment to development and the longer enjoy the protection offered under our economic self-determination that will surely fisheries legislation, thus enabling new own- follow. ers to issue additional access rights which Residents of our six states may not be fa- will inevitably place extra pressure on our miliar with legislation that gives rise to such currently well-managed fish stocks. The de- discrimination against indigenous Territori- pletion of fish stocks, particularly in breed- ans in relation to their land, that provides for ing areas, will lead to depletion in other ar- massive sea and river closures and that dras- 148 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 tically reduces our capacity to manage the At some time during the escalation of marine environment in a sustainable manner. hostilities in East Timor, prior to that young This is because the Northern Territory is the nation’s independence, my eldest son, Dan- only jurisdiction affected by such legislation, iel, sidled up and stood quite close to me. He and that legislation is of course the Aborigi- was silent for a moment, which, in Dan’s nal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act case, usually prefaces a statement of great 1976. Since the introduction of native title, import—or he has broken something. He the Northern Territory now has a double said, ‘Dad, when the war comes here, will I whammy. We have two Commonwealth acts have to fight?’ I assured him that there would dealing with essentially the same issues. If a be no war in Darwin and he would not have single Commonwealth act is good enough to fight anyone. I also reminded him that the for the rest of Australia, then it should be last time Australia was attacked was 60 years good enough for the Northern Territory. ago, when Darwin was bombed. We then I will be calling on the members of this spoke for a while about how lucky we are; house to support Territorians in amendments about how Australia, in comparison with the to the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Ter- rest of the world, is a hostility-free country. ritory) Act that may be brought forward to Dan’s concerns were also a reminder that make it consistent with native title. I strongly Darwin, whilst it is the capital of the North- believe that appropriate amendments will ern Territory, is also an Australian capital in deliver not only a secure and sustainable South-East Asia. In such turbulent times, I economic future for all Territorians but also see much wisdom in the words of a great the capacity for genuine self-determination Australian and Territorian, the late Reverend for indigenous Territorians. Fred Mackay, who suggested, ‘We should The Aboriginal land act is an ill- view tolerance and forgiveness as greatness.’ considered piece of legislation that became If these words were to become the mantra of law in the Northern Territory in 1976 be- all Australians, our beloved island home cause Territorians had no choice in the mat- would remain free, for another 60 years, of ter. Madam President, the people of the the sorts of hostilities that have tormented so Northern Territory are regularly reminded of many other nations of the world. the fact that we often have little input in de- I will work with the members of this termining our own future. A stark example chamber to ensure that our legacy to the was the euthanasia debate. Territorians’ very children of Australia is at least equal in mature attempt to resolve the most complex quality to the social, economic and environ- of social issues was treated with contempt, mental legacy that previous generations of and our decisions were overturned as if we Australians have bequeathed to us. I have were errant children. This is the sort of re- always felt a little sad for all those Austra- minder that keeps the vision of statehood and lians who have not made the Northern Ter- the struggle for self-determination fresh in ritory their home. In the interests of fairness the minds of Territorians. and equity, I invite the members of the Sen- I was very pleased to hear His Excellency ate to visit the Territory at any time; and, the Governor-General reflect the govern- when you are there, experience a new ment’s position that Australian society is benchmark in hospitality and, in your memo- fundamentally built upon the principles of ries at least, take home a slice of paradise. fairness and equity. I am delighted to report Senator WEST (New South Wales) to His Excellency that statehood is again a (11.19 a.m.)—I rise to speak in this debate focus of discussion in the Northern Territory, and, like my colleague Senator Gibson, this and I will be working with all levels of gov- will be my last address-in-reply; however, I ernment to ensure that the principles of fair- am still here until 30 June. Senator Gibson, ness and equity are applied to all Territorians thank you for your friendship, your camara- as we take our legitimate place in the Fed- derie, and the great times we have had to- eration as the state of the Northern Territory. gether; particularly the couple of delegations we have done overseas. You and Pauline Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 149 have been great company and I have enjoyed commitments, because they are very impor- it immensely. Have a good retirement. I have tant commitments. said things to you privately about your going I turn to some specific aspects of the Gov- to the backbench from the frontbench, and ernor-General’s speech: first of all, the gov- you know what I think about that. You had ernment’s commitments on telecommunica- standards and courage, and you stood by tions. The Governor-General commented those convictions and did things that some of that all Australians should have ‘timely, af- your colleagues who are guilty, I suspect, of fordable and reliable access to basic tele- far greater crimes and sins did not do. communications services’. For those of us To Senator Scullion, the new senator: wel- who live outside metropolitan areas, that is come. That is your easiest speech. From now not necessarily the case. We are actually on we can interject and tell you precisely seeing this government preparing for the what we think about some of your com- further sale, the complete sell-off, of Telstra. ments, and that will be a great and delightful The government is trying to ensure that it experience. I have noted a couple of points gets the maximum price. It thinks it will get but I will be a bit reserved today, because the maximum price but recently it has al- this is the address-in-reply— lowed a number of issues to happen with Senator Hogg—You are never reserved. Telstra which quite seriously affect people living in rural and regional areas. Senator WEST—Senator Hogg, that was totally unparliamentary. I will endeavour to I have heard criticism by people who live be a bit more polite, because I do not want in remote areas of the proposal that the Rad- this to be construed as being disrespectful of phone—the Codan system for those who live the Governor-General, and I certainly have a outside where the normal lines can run—is great deal of admiration for the people of going to be phased out and cancelled by the Australia. After that preface, I will com- end of March. The alternative will be satel- mence looking at the Governor-General’s lite phones. There are certainly some ques- speech and the address-in-reply. tions about that. Radphones are a bit noisy and there are some problems with them, but When we went to the election campaign on the whole they have been quite reliable. last October-November—the end of the 39th There are concerns about satellite phones: Parliament—we seemed to be focused on a the footprint of the satellite coverage and the small group of desperate asylum seekers. I cost of phone calls through satellites is very would hope that, as we begin the 40th Par- expensive. The government would do well to liament, there is a different focus. It is im- listen to the concerns of people travelling in provements in the issues of jobs, health and remote areas who now use the Codan system education that will make the Australian way in their vehicles that they may not be able to of life more secure and prosperous. The use satellite phones with such efficiency or Governor-General’s reply saw, in effect, an without an increase in cost. effort by the government to, I think, rewrite history—or to rewrite the issues that shaped Also, recently with Telstra—they are get- the campaign, at least. The reply noted that ting worse than banks, as far as their fees and the Australian people endorsed a wide- charges are concerned; I think they are tak- ranging program of continued reform. I ing over from banks—we have seen that would beg to argue that it was not a focus on Easymail, the free email service, is being proposed reform that enabled the govern- cancelled. There will be no way that any- ment to win the election. Yesterday in his body’s email addresses can be transferred to speech the Governor-General commented: a new carrier, and the email messages cannot be sent on. Easymail is just going to come to Although neither complacent nor unaware of the many challenges ahead, Australia can create for a sudden stop. It was introduced in Decem- itself a future of immense prospect and prosperity. ber 1998 by the government when they said The government pledges itself to that effort. that it was a Christmas present to all Austra- I can say that the opposition pledges itself to lians, that it would help those people on low making sure the government lives up to those incomes living in rural areas where services 150 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 may be a bit dicey and that it would provide and scientists think that this could increase to them with an email service that would not 15 million hectares. That is a significant area cost them any additional funding. It has of land. It is not just grazing or farming land gone. either; it comprises towns and settlements. In Those people now have the option of tak- Wagga, many houses are having problems ing out email services with BigPond, but that with salt in the subsoil rising and causing is going to cost them money. The cheapest crumbling—basically, it is causing houses to service will be about $3 per month, but there fall down. There is also lost agricultural pro- is a huge number of restrictions on what they duction, currently valued at $130 million a can and cannot do with that particular serv- year and rising—all from salinity. ice. We have also seen changes to BigPond It is fine for the government to say that and, for those with significant or even mod- they are going to do something for salinity erate amounts of usage, it is not very clear but we have evidence of what they have from reading Telstra’s packages what the done in the past, and it has not worked. They best package is going to be for individuals have broken their promises and their com- and what the cost is going to be. The gov- mitments, and I condemn them heartily for ernment need to be very careful about that that. It is a major concern for the rural areas because it is not happening as well as it of this country which we must address. It could or should be. I would ask them to be might not be a problem in Sydney or Mel- very cautious. bourne. In Adelaide, water quality is a major The government also talked about pro- problem and there is a lot of salt in the water. tecting salinity. Great! But what is their rec- In 20 years time, it is projected that water ord in protecting this country by doing piped from the Murray River to Adelaide something about salinity? They have been will be too salty for human consumption. talking about it now for six years, but let us That problem is going to have to be ad- look at their record. In 1998, the Prime Min- dressed as well. It is of major significance. ister promised $1.5 billion over six years on We have to have a great deal of respect for the environment and then cut $130 million to our land. It is an old land which has salt in fund a seventh year. He cut $35 million from the subsoil and that is having a very big im- onground works under the National Action pact upon us. Plan for Salinity and Water Quality before it I will go back to telecommunications is- had even started. He has allowed land clear- sues for a minute, because I think the other ing to continue at rates some 100 times faster issue that people have not really thought than the land is being replanted under the about is this: Telstra is going to charge busi- Natural Heritage Trust. On coming into gov- nesses that want to be listed in both sections ernment, he immediately cut over $200 mil- of the White Pages. This year they are sepa- lion in regional environmental programs. rating the White Pages into two sections: It is fine to say that he is going to give us business and residential. That is fine for big this salinity protection, but we need to be business: they go into the business section, reminded that the government has already and the individuals who are part of that com- taken a lot away and that previous commit- pany do as they normally do and stay in the ments have not been upheld. The govern- residential section. But many small busi- ment’s own mid-term review of the Natural nesses operate from home, and they have one Heritage Trust was damning for the trust’s telephone. That is both their business and failure to achieve environmental outcomes home telephone. Now they will be put into and recommended fundamental reform. It is the business section of the White Pages, be- quite apparent that this government has not cause that telephone is their business tele- shown any leadership in salinity reform and phone; if they want their number listed in the the overcoming of salinity. It has abrogated residential section of the White Pages, they its leadership responsibility. will have to pay $126.50 for the pleasure. The problem grows. Two-and-a-half mil- Obviously, government has approved this, lion hectares are already affected by salinity allowing Telstra to make some more money. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 151

They are just priming Telstra up for further University is 87. That is a very good and privatisation, so I would very much urge high UAI. I think it is wonderful that that is people to be very aware of what is happening the standard that is being required for people there. Having to pay that additional $126.50 to enter into nursing, but my constituent can- is, I think, an impost. Many small businesses not leave that town. She has to stay in the that work out of home in such industries as area, but she cannot get into nursing. the building industry and the farming indus- The government will say to me, ‘She try have just the one telephone number. If could do it at Western Sydney, maybe, or at you have a sheep stud, you want to register one of the other institutions where the UAI yourself or to be apparent as a business, so required is less.’ There are people—women you go into the business area of the White in particular—who wish to undertake nursing Pages, where you would expect to be; but degrees but who do not have that option. All you also want to make sure that people she needs is 12 months at the Bathurst cam- looking for you at home can find you in the pus of Charles Sturt University. They run a residential area of the White Pages. For that, program where, if you do your first 12 you are going to be slugged another $126.50. months as an internal student, you are then It just keeps adding up, and it is not fair or able to undertake the final two years as an right. But this is something that this govern- external model. That means that you can ment did not really talk about at election keep working in the industry; it enhances time. We know they did not talk about it, your clinical skills, and it enables you to because as I said earlier we seemed to con- come out at the end of the time with a nurs- centrate on asylum seekers and not really ing degree, and we need people with that talk about what the government was going to qualification. I do not think that is going to do on other very important issues. be happening for my constituent. This gov- For me, the issues of health and of access ernment has walked away from its responsi- to universities and of nursing numbers are of bility to ensure that, first of all, there is major concern. I have a letter from a con- enough funding to universities and, conse- stituent from my area to whom I have spo- quently, that there are enough university ken. She is very concerned. She is an older places so that universities can actually train woman and has family commitments in her and provide enough nursing graduates for the particular community. She has some nursing various states. experience—she is an assistant in nursing. Senator McGauran—It’s the enrolments She has now got to the stage where, while that are the problem. The places are there. It she has family commitments, she wants to do is the enrolments that are the problem. something for herself and become a regis- tered nurse. Heaven knows, there is a chronic Senator WEST—Senator McGauran has shortage of nurses in this country and, in obviously not cleaned out his ears and has fact, worldwide. As a mature age person, she failed to understand that this woman cannot went through the process of getting an as- get in because the UAI is 87, and the UAI is sessment for a university admission index—a 87 because there are so many people wanting UAI—which is an index that goes from one to get into this course. There are people to 100. The Charles Sturt University in waiting. There is not a lack of enrolments; Bathurst runs two nursing programs. One is there is an excess of enrolments. to allow enrolled nurses to upgrade to regis- Senator McGauran—Are we talking tered nurse qualifications. It is very popular about nursing? I only tuned in a minute ago, and very good, and it works well. The other by the way. one is for undergraduates. This woman, be- Senator WEST—I think you had better cause she is an assistant nurse and not an tune out again, because you obviously know enrolled nurse, would have to undertake the nothing about this at all. undergraduate course. This year for the sec- Senator Abetz—Everybody else has. ond round of offers, which she failed to get into with a UAI somewhere in the 70s, the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT UAI for the Bathurst campus of Charles Sturt (Senator Chapman)—Order! Senator West, 152 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 please do not provoke senators opposite, and up a HECS position the following year. Is then we might have a more peaceful debate. that fair? No, it is not fair because often Senator WEST—I am sorry, Mr Acting these people who have bought their way in Deputy President. If government members may not have the same high UAI numbers as choose to tune out of my speech about the those who actually got HECS positions in the critical shortage of nursing places and the first place. This government is ripping off lack of funding to universities, I think that is this country. It is not providing fairness and indicative of their lack of concern about this equity in terms of ability to everybody who very important issue—the fact that there is a wants to go to university. This policy enables huge shortage. The only shortage in health people who can afford to buy a first year that they will talk about is the shortage of place at university to slot into a HECS posi- doctors, and they will run headlines such as, tion the next year and thus affect the num- ‘The doctor numbers in rural areas are in- bers from outside who want to get in but creasing.’ We saw that again last week or the cannot get in. week before. What they do not and will not That is what this government has done. tell us is how many effective full-time These are the issues the opposition will make equivalent doctors there are out there in rural sure are well canvassed and highlighted. We areas. will try to make sure the government delivers I know very well that, while the number on the issues of fairness and equity. We of doctors might have increased, the number know that, unless we are there monitoring of full-time equivalents has not increased: this and pushing this hard, they will not de- the government has pulled this stunt before. I liver on fairness and equity and they will rip can remember when Mr Fischer was Acting people off, not help those who need help and Prime Minister: he came out and said that help those who do not need help. they were increasing the number of doctors Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) in rural areas, but when we got to estimates (11.39 a.m.)—Yesterday, the Governor- the situation was different. I put this on no- General, Dr Hollingworth, opened the 40th tice and warn the departments that next week Parliament and, as per tradition, gave an ad- I will want the numbers of doctor full-time dress that outlined the program for the com- equivalent positions in rural areas —not the ing term of government. There are aspects of number of doctors but the number of full- the government’s program that the Demo- time equivalents that there are out there. That crats will be opposing and opposing strongly. is the important figure, and I bet that will There are, of course, other aspects that we show that, if there has been any increase, it will be supporting. As always, the Demo- has only been one or two. crats will seek to engage constructively with They do not care about the shortage of any all other parties and senators to try to get the of the other health professionals. They do not best outcome for the people of Australia. We provide enough money for universities to will stand firm on the principles that are make sure that there are adequate places. central to our party and our purpose in being There were reports in my local paper of the and the principles and policies that we took Vice-Chancellor of Charles Sturt University to the last election where we returned the calling for more funds. He wants to have same number of senators as we achieved in more nursing places. He wants to pick up the the previous election in 1998. 20 or so would-be nurses who did not get In regards to the motion relating to the places in the second round. Why can’t he? Governor-General’s address, the Democrats The government will not give him enough will be moving an amendment to what eve- money. That university runs well and runs rybody knows was the central issue of the hard. last election campaign, asylum seekers. We This government enables university en- will be seeking the support of the Senate to trants to pay their own way and to buy their send a strong signal that we must move to- way into places. They buy their way in the wards a more humane and workable ap- first year only and then they are able to take proach in the way we deal with asylum seek- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 153 ers and refugees and the Woomera Detention Senate—passed without due consideration. Centre being closed. The Democrats have We oppose the so-called Pacific solution and always opposed mandatory detention for all we continue to ask the government what that unauthorised arrivals since it was introduced solution is costing and how it is operating. around 10 years ago. The damage caused by The Democrats believe that, as an important that policy is now becoming clearer. The first step, the Woomera Detention Centre unnecessary nature of it is also becoming must be closed. A few weeks ago, on 24 clearer. I am pleased to see some movement January, accompanied by the Democrats from the Labor Party acknowledging that to leader, Senator Stott Despoja, I visited the an extent. Woomera Detention Centre at the request of In this chamber in 1999 the Democrats detainees—and I thank the minister and his opposed very strongly the introduction of office for their cooperation in that. We met temporary protection visas for genuine refu- with a number of people, including delegates gees. I moved the motion to disallow the for the asylum seekers there and some chil- introduction of that inappropriate and unfair dren. Before Christmas, Democrats, includ- measure. Unfortunately, of course, it none- ing my colleague Senator Lees, delivered theless went through. The concerns and dan- toys for the children at Woomera—and I gers that the Democrats expressed at the time thank those members of the public who do- are now becoming quite clear. The bureau- nated those toys. cratic and emotional time bomb is rapidly Undoubtedly, there is a terrible atmos- ticking down. This year we will see the first phere of tension, fear and despair in the cen- of those people who got temporary protec- tre, as there is in other detention centres tion visas go back through the emotional around the country, but I think it is particu- grinder, the psychological grinder and have larly highlighted and magnified at Woomera. their futures thrown up into the air and into It is blatantly not an appropriate place for uncertainty. children to be raised or for children to be for There will be uncertain futures for many any length of time. Neither they nor their genuine refugees who have lived in the Aus- parents know what the future holds and tralian community for the last few years— some, disgracefully, have been in detention people who have tried to get on with their for years. Traumatised, depressed and con- lives, tried to work in with the Australian fused, some detainees have rioted or begun community despite a deliberate lack of as- hunger strikes, sewing their lips shut, and sistance on the part of the government. They have engaged in other acts of self-mutilation will once again be thrown into uncertainty. It and protest. Those who think that hunger shows the complete absurdity and falsehood striking is some disgraceful, violent act of of the government’s argument and that of inappropriate behaviour should have their some in the community that we cannot let attention drawn to the long tradition—in asylum seekers out of detention centres be- some ways, the noble tradition—of it being cause it would not be safe for the commu- used by people, the most notable being Gan- nity. Yet, suddenly, once they are assessed as dhi, to highlight very strongly their power- refugees and allowed out they all do their lessness and voicelessness or their need to best to be members of the Australian com- demonstrate as strongly as possible their op- munity. I am not aware of any who have position to the oppression they are under. caused any sort of disruption within the This is what some of the detainees in Australian community. All whom I have met, Woomera said to Senator Stott Despoja and if anything, are more committed than virtu- me: ally anyone else in society to get on and live Welcome as representatives of Australia. We a constructive life and assist in building a wanted you to see with your own eyes. We are not better Australia. criminals. We are people with problems. The The Democrats opposed the border pro- Australian people are afraid because of Septem- tection bills that in the week before the call- ber 11. We were here before September 11. We are just simple people and very depressed. We ing of the election the government—and the also run from terrorists; there is nowhere else for 154 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 us to go. We escape from our history. We are the having difficulty in gaining one and getting victims of our history. their message out to the Australian people. There are misunderstandings about us among the That is why it is so important that those of us Australian people. in the community who support them, in- They are direct quotes from people talking cluding the Democrats, continue to be a with us inside of the Woomera Detention voice for them and add to their voice. Centre. Those misunderstandings amongst Last year the government was more than the Australian people clearly exist, and they willing to allow media access to show de- are quite clearly being deliberately generated struction at the detention centre in an attempt by some in the media and by the govern- to portray asylum seekers in a bad light; but ment. when detainees are engaging in a nonviolent The government’s insistence on locking protest, such as hunger striking, the journal- up all unauthorised arrivals for prolonged ists are kept completely away. We have seen periods of time is causing immense and un- this week on television bits of a video necessary suffering to people who often have showing security guards at the Port Hedland already endured an enormous amount. Asy- Detention Centre acting in an extremely lum seekers in detention centres have fewer violent way towards young people and de- legal rights than anyone else in Australia, tainees. That also is a message, a vision, including those in Australia’s jails. Clearly, which the government did not want us to see. the government has also attempted to keep It was happy to release visions of detainees from the Australian public the full truth smashing windows, but it tried to prevent the about the situation in detention centres. It has public from seeing what generated or exac- released selective pieces of information that erbated that situation and the thuggish be- are often very misrepresentative or com- haviour of some security guards. pletely deceiving. At the Woomera Detention For the last few years, parts of the gov- Centre, for example, I was told: ernment have run a deliberate campaign of Three days ago someone take three children to misinformation and fear against asylum school. A reporter then went to a child, a seekers. Australians have now endured years five-year-old, and spoke. The child, it was his of demonising ‘these people’ and of the pub- idea to say, “I want freedom” . The next day that lic being told that there is a potential inva- child cannot go to school. He is five and he has sion occurring—a serious threat to our sov- not gone to school since. Not allowed. ereign borders from people who, it is That is the way intimidation is inflicted on claimed, are diseased, dishonest, not genuine all detainees down to the youngest of chil- refugees and ‘not like us’. dren. We still have to get to the truth behind the We are all aware of the arrest of an ABC incident during the election where govern- journalist who was charged for failing to ment ministers clearly falsely claimed that leave Commonwealth land outside the asylum seekers had deliberately thrown their Woomera Detention Centre on 26 January. children overboard, and there are other Of course, anyone who has been there would claims the government has made that I think realise the farcical nature of such a demand are equally dubious. More and more I think and such a request. This was clearly not people are becoming aware that you simply someone who was trying to clamber over a cannot take the word of the government on fence or anything like that. The media were this issue. We saw that again with Woomera already a long way away from the actual where the federal minister and the relevant centre. Again, clearly this was an attempt state minister, Deane Brown, made blatant just to intimidate journalists. I think it must allegations that adults were forcibly sewing be the first time in decades that trespass has shut the lips of children. That allegation was been used as a means to restrict the freedom referred to the South Australian Department of the press and attempts to get more facts of Family and Youth Services to investigate. out to the Australian community. The detain- The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity ees are very aware of not having a voice or Commission, examining specific conditions Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 155 for children in detention centres, also inves- in those principles is not true. Fairness and tigated that allegation. It quite specifically decency are clearly the last things on this said that it found no evidence to substantiate government’s mind in relation to some ab- the claims that there was forcible mutilation solutely key areas. of children. Also, there was very strong talk There are other important aspects of this around the place about the same thing occur- government’s agenda that the Democrats will ring with the investigation by the South be strongly involved in and examining, par- Australian Department of Family and Youth ticularly the crucial area of welfare. The Services. That department has, I believe, Governor-General said the government ‘will provided a report to the minister and, maintain a strong social security safety net again—guess what—he is not releasing it for the more vulnerable in our society’. because it shows that there is no evidence to Again, this government has actually been back up his defamatory claims about detain- degrading the security of our safety net over ees. I think that looks again very clearly like the course of the last six years, and the another deliberate fabrication on the part of Democrats will continue to resist attempts to the government to try and mislead the Aus- downgrade it further. The most disgraceful tralian people about the character and nature area is the imposition of breaches on huge of detainees. numbers of people with low literacy, people World events, not government posturing with mental illness or acquired brain injuries, or punishment of unauthorised arrivals, de- people with drug and alcohol related prob- termine the flow of asylum seekers, and we lems, people who are homeless, indigenous as a mature nation have to recognise our in- Australians and many young people. ternational obligations and take our share. The intensification of the breaching re- We must adopt sensible, humane, legal and gime over the last few years means that the workable approaches. There are hundreds of most disadvantaged job seekers—those who children, including some who are unaccom- need high levels of support and assistance to panied, locked away behind razor wire in enter the work force—are being trapped in a detention centres. The Democrats believe maze of bureaucratic requirements and are that, while their claims for refugee status are suffering tremendous financial hardship as a assessed, families should be in group homes result of the penalties they receive, often for outside of detention centres, and unaccom- reasons and in circumstances outside their panied minors should be in the care of com- real control. Too often penalties are imposed munity and welfare agencies. There will be without even seeking a reasonable excuse lower financial, emotional and social costs if from the unemployed person. This is be- most asylum seekers are released into the coming a major social problem in our com- community. It is done effectively in all other munity. It is a self-induced problem by the countries around the world, and it is ridicu- government. In the same way as the suffering lous to suggest that somehow or other asy- of asylum seekers is deliberately inflicted by lum seekers in Australia are different. Quite government policy, the suffering of many clearly, children should not be in detention thousands of Australians through excessive centres. breaching is also the result of deliberately The Governor-General said in his speech inflicted government policy. yesterday that the government ‘will continue Sadly, the environment area did not get to believe that Australian society is funda- much focus from the government. It did get a mentally built upon principles of fairness and small mention in the Governor-General’s decency and the premise that opportunity address—and we certainly welcome the new should be available equally to all, regardless Sustainable Environment Committee of of background, gender, race or religion’. I Cabinet that will be chaired by the Prime am afraid the Governor-General, who I know Minister. But, as we have already discussed has to read what he is told by the govern- this morning, the first thing on the govern- ment, is being misled there, because the gov- ment’s agenda is the introduction of the Re- ernment, by its actions, shows that its belief gional Forest Agreements Bill 2002, a bill 156 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 that will increase the destruction of our na- sive and destructive focus on demonising tive forests and expand the unsustainable asylum seekers. It has divided the Australian woodchip industry—hardly a good sign of community in relation to that. We have a the environmental credentials and priorities Prime Minister who is probably the most of this government. divisive in the history of our nation since The United Nations Foundation has pre- Billy Hughes. He is obviously willing to get pared a world energy assessment that calls power at any cost, regardless of the damage on governments to make better progress on he does to the nation and regardless of the energy efficiencies and renewables. Whilst suffering he causes. He is willing to divide the Democrats welcome and strongly support the nation as long as he can get the biggest any extra focus by this government on the chunk to help him get back into government. crucial issue of salinity—an issue on which As Greg Sheridan said the other day, you we will gladly work with the government cannot be a cheap, hollow populist one day and all other senators to get strong positive and then try to pretend to be a constructive, outcomes—the rest of the government’s en- considered leader the next. You cannot flop vironmental agenda is sadly empty. This call from one to the other. The lack of principle, from the United Nations Foundation for en- the lack of any morality by the Prime Min- ergy efficiency highlights another crucial ister, in particular in his disgraceful mis- area that we are very much falling behind on. leading of the Australian public, and the It comes just as Australia has been assessed enormous damage he has done to Australia’s by the World Economic Forum as worse than ability to engage with the international the United States in reducing greenhouse community on fundamental issues of justice emissions. should be condemned. (Time expired) As Senator Stott Despoja has said, the Senator BUCKLAND (South Australia) government may boast of its $1 billion over (11.59 a.m.)—I rise to speak in this debate to five years for greenhouse gas abatement— bring notice to the fact that in the Governor- the money, I might add, is there only because General’s address yesterday he spoke about of the Democrats—but clearly we are not families but he did not at any point speak doing enough to reduce greenhouse emis- about that very important part of family life: sions and reduce land clearing. This year those of our families who are required to marks 10 years since the original Rio Earth become residents of aged care nursing home Summit. There will be another international facilities. I think that was somewhat negli- environmental gathering, Rio plus 10, which gent. It is an area that the government in will consider progress made since 1992, as- outlining its policies should have addressed sessing the progress of nations in meeting the more constructively. targets of sustainability set 10 years ago. During the period since we were last here, Australia, clearly, must do better in the next leading up to and following the election and decade than we have in the last. until coming back yesterday, I took the op- Before my time runs out, I formally ac- portunity to visit a number of nursing homes knowledge and welcome to the Senate and aged care facilities, including one in Senator Scullion and Senator Colbeck, and I which my mother is a resident. What struck congratulate Senator Scullion on his inter- me was not so much that the nursing homes esting first speech. I note Senator Gibson’s needed structural repairs or that they needed announcement of his retirement and wish additional beds, although I would imagine him well, and I acknowledge the contribution we are going to have debate on the chronic he has made during his time here. shortage of beds for some time to come. However, in conclusion, it is a very deli- These visits were more casual visits to catch cate time for the future direction of our na- up with people I have known over many tion as we move into the second century of years and whom I have worked with. I was Federation. We have a government that has going round at Christmas to visit my friends got back into power solely—and everybody and my mother whom I visit a number of knows this—because of its deliberate divi- times per year. What struck me in all of this Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 157 was the lack of care for the intellectual prop- went fishing and places I had been to that erty that belongs to the residents. We talk they had been to, but they had never dis- about their health care and their need for cussed it with their companions in this facil- medications. All whom I saw were well ca- ity. tered for there. There were a few for whom The facility in Victoria where my mother maybe more could have been done. But there now resides was another of those. Until the seemed to be nothing to take care of the resi- last week or so my mother was fortunate to dents’ intellect. have her own unit, so she had a great deal of Just recently I visited one particular nurs- independence and was allowed to leave, with ing home or aged care facility; it was a bit of company because she is blind, and go down a mix of both. The director of nursing there the street if she desired, as were the others in said, ‘They are all in the lounge at the mo- the self-contained units. They ate in a gen- ment. They have just had lunch and they are eral dining room. It is a very charming little sitting there at the moment. This is when village. I was concerned not so much about they generally spend a bit of time together.’ that as where she will be placed when she When I walked in, to see one person in par- leaves hospital in the next fortnight, in the ticular but to talk to as many as I could, I more acute care nursing facility. When I was absolutely horrified to find that they walked in with my two sons and my wife to were sitting in two rows facing each other. go through to my mother’s unit, the very first At school we used to call it bellybutton star- thing I saw were the looks on the faces of ing. They were across the way from each people who were sitting in the lounge room. other and there was quite a gap between the They were absolutely delighted to see a fresh two rows. No-one was talking. They were face who actually waved to them. In our du- sitting next to each other and they were just ties we all visit nursing homes. You pick up staring. There was nothing in that room to things that you do and gauge the people as stimulate conversation. At first you think to soon as you get there. It was not until we left yourself that perhaps these people do not like there that day that my wife said, ‘That made to talk to others around them. But in fact the me cry, going through that section.’ It was difficulty they had was that they had ‘talked then I started thinking that we are not caring one another to death’. They had talked so for the intellectual management of these much to one another that they knew every- residents. Again, their lounge room had the thing they needed to know. What was miss- chairs all around the four walls. It was quite ing there was something to stimulate new a large room. There were spaces between the conversation or new activity between them chairs that I assumed were for people to put all. There seemed to be nothing in the plan of their wheelchairs or motorised buggies or that particular nursing home, and a few I whatever. But there was no place within that visited subsequently, to stimulate further dis- lounge room facility where they could inter- cussion outside of the little clone of, ‘I’m act with each other, where they could share Geoff Buckland. Who are you? I used to live ideas and views. in Whyalla till I came in here.’ Those sorts of When I went back to that facility the fol- things were all gone. I started talking to a lowing day, I again went and spoke to some few in this nursing home. I thought that per- of the residents. I found that they were ex- haps I will bring something different into it. tremely nice people who had a lot to offer. The football was not on, so it was no good Their lives had been very rich and they had talking about Port Power. I think, by the contributed to society immensely, but they scarves that were around, they were Crows were now behind the walls. These people did supporters anyway. I brought in other sub- not have such independence, they could not jects about things I have done in my life. get out as freely, and that really disturbed When I was talking to a couple of the men, I me. Again, there was no encouragement. found they had been keen fishermen prior to They were all sitting chairs and chairs apart. going into the facility, so I had an affinity They all knew each other by name, but not with them. They were delighted to start one that I spoke to knew the backgrounds to talking about things they did and how they 158 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 those who were sitting in the same room— encouragement to residents to participate in apart from knowing that they came from the life of the community that they are living further up the track at Oberon or from Tathra in. In some places they might have the occa- and places like that. sional barbecue about once a fortnight or a It is because the care of our older Austra- social singsong in the evenings. Some said, lians was not mentioned yesterday in the ‘We wouldn’t go to that. We can’t sing and Governor-General’s address that I really they sing old-fashioned songs anyway.’ thought it should be raised. This government So where is the active participation in that really has to get hold of the whole question community and where is the active partici- of how we treat the older and frailer mem- pation in the outside community? Many of bers in our community; how we can engage these people have worked tirelessly to con- them and keep their minds alert. For the tribute to society prior to being placed in benefit of my colleagues on the other side, I these facilities or entering at their own will, visited a nursing home in Jamestown in as my mother did. Many have contributed South Australia. I would suggest to you that much, but they are not getting very much out we would not gain a vote there if we tried. I of it now. They are locked away and forgot- went to a nursing home there at the invitation ten. Their interaction with the outside com- of the director of nursing. One particular munity appears to be that either the family gentleman there dressed immaculately each comes and takes them out for an afternoon or day. He had been a farmer for many years, occasionally, if funds are available, the facil- and when I talked to him—and I have not ity will organise for them to go away for a farmed much more than a couple of tomato day to play the poker machines perhaps— bushes—he explained to me in detail the way and that is a great interaction with the com- that they cleared and prepared the land for munity, as I have seen as I go around—or for the wonderful harvest that they now get from them to go down to the local senior citizen’s that very prosperous region in South Austra- club for an afternoon of bingo or, if they are lia. As I said, he dressed immaculately—tie capable, carpet bowls. and all—every day of his life. He had a In our management of aged care, I do not wonderful wit and a wonderful command of think we are really dealing with and ad- the current world situation, but he sat there dressing what, to me, is very important: waiting for someone to come to take him out keeping their minds active and giving them a for the day. As a result, I took him to a cafe purpose to sit there and talk to each other. down town and enjoyed a further conversa- They have the TVs going in these lounge tion about his interesting life. rooms, of course. Days of our Lives is on In the Accreditation guide for residential every day, but no-one watches it. They just aged care services, standard 3 deals with sit there, hoping that someone will come and looking at enriching the lives of these peo- talk to them. Another one of the standards is ple. In the guide there are things like inde- leisure interests and activities, and the ex- pendence for these people. I have certainly pected outcome is: come to the belief that, once you go into an Residents are encouraged and supported to par- aged care or nursing home facility, your in- ticipate in a wide range of interests and activities dependence is eliminated—I am convinced of interest to them. of that—otherwise they would not have the Again, I have visited facilities on their activ- little security locks for those people who are ity afternoons—maybe a Tuesday after- not at risk if they did go out. The expected noon—and it seems to me that they are in- outcome for the standard on independence is: volved in putting a few beads together or Residents are assisted to achieve maximum inde- doing things that could be suitable for those pendence, maintain friendships and participate in at kindergarten, such as learning to weigh up the life of the community within and outside the things. Some of them do very productive residential care service. things such as knitting, but it is usually what The facilities today do not appear to be ad- the facility would like them to do rather than dressing that in any real way. There is no what they would like to do. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 159

I visited one facility—at Cobar in New We could give that power back to them. South Wales, I think it was, but I may be Even if it were to have someone sit with wrong about that—with a group of my col- them and try to record some of their histories leagues. Three of the people there desper- so that we understand how it was before, that ately wanted to get together as a group and would be an interest to them. Some of the knit some baby clothes because they loved to stories I have heard over the time I have been knit. The problem was that they had to sit doing this are so fascinating—the hardship and try to learn to paint. One of those ladies many had to endure to establish a life for said, ‘I’m too embarrassed to try because I themselves and their families. There was the know I can’t. I have another problem: I am hardship of travel prior to the reasonable colour blind.’ They had discussed this with roads that we have now—although much the worker who was there with them giving more could be said about that. A trip we can them some social activities. Unfortunately, do now in four hours was perhaps a two-day these people were bound to the facility; they trek. These people have a wealth of experi- did not have the independence to go outside. ence to offer us and each other. In the debate I was disturbed that they had to do that ac- on aged and acute care, we are missing the tivity. One of the other standards is that there fact that we are not catering for their needs be choice and decision making: or giving them an opportunity to take part in Each resident (or his or her representative)— what is vital to their intellectual continuance I am not too sure who that actually is; I sup- once they leave mainstream society for these pose it is the person who has had them ad- facilities. (Time expired) mitted— Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- participates in decisions about the services the tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) resident receives ... (12.19 p.m.)—Mr Acting Deputy President Chapman, welcome back. A number of Certainly, that is a case where they did not Democrats will be giving speeches in the have a choice about the activities they would form of an address-in-reply to the Governor- like to take part in. My mother is blind, as I General’s speech. I would like to do so on have said, and she still knits. Basically, all behalf of my party also. As we know, this is she can do now is knit the little covers for the opening of the 40th Parliament in the coat hangers, but the nursing home sells 101st year of an Australian federal govern- them at fetes and various functions to raise ment. I would like to begin by acknowledg- money. I wonder how much we really do ing the indigenous people, who are the tradi- allow our older citizens to decide for them- tional owners of this land. The Democrats selves. They may be allowed to decide on the strongly believe that the opening of parlia- clothes they wear, but beyond that I tend to ment should include a welcoming ceremony think there is very little. There is a require- by the indigenous people and I believe my ment under the guide that each resident is: colleague deputy leader Senator Aden ... enabled to exercise choice and control over his Ridgeway has a motion on notice to that ef- or her lifestyle ... fect. It is a blight on all of us here and on the gov- As I did briefly yesterday, I congratulate ernment for not doing more to ensure that the coalition—and, in particular, Prime these residents, these people who have con- Minister John Howard—on their re-election tributed so much to our society, have more to government for a third term. I also extend control over the lifestyle they lead. The rea- a welcome on behalf of all the Democrats to sons they do not have this choice are, firstly, the 22 new members that we have in the par- there is no money to fund some of the things liament and particularly to those two new they would like to do and, secondly, there senators who joined us yesterday. After 1 does not seem to be an interest in getting July this year the Australian Democrats will them together as a group to discuss these still hold seats in this House. We will have things but, rather, a tendency to dictate what eight Senate seats and therefore the effective they should be doing. balance of power. 160 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

In his speech yesterday, the Governor- it is an issue on which the Australian Demo- General, Dr Hollingworth, opened the 40th crats have been vocal for many years, but we Parliament and, according to tradition, gave still acknowledge there is a lot of work to be an address that outlined the government’s done. While consumers now have a lot more program for the coming term. There are as- information about the GM ingredients in the pects of the government’s program that the foods they buy, there are still too many ex- Democrats have grave concerns about. As emptions to those laws. So we will continue usual, we will analyse and scrutinise legisla- to pursue improvements to those laws, par- tion and vote on its merits. The Australian ticularly under the Australia New Zealand Democrats will move an amendment to the Food Standards Council, and we will work to motion on the Governor-General’s address. I ensure a tighter labelling regime for geneti- give notice now of that amendment; it is be- cally modified foods. ing circulated, and I will refer to it later. I This is actually the 25th anniversary year note, to avoid any panic in the chamber, that for the Australian Democrats and it is the this is not an amendment that we will be 21st anniversary of the party first holding the voting on for some time. To give senators an balance of power in the . idea of what that amendment is, it is in rela- We will be celebrating a quarter of a century tion to asylum seekers and that we move to- of the Democrats as the third force in Aus- wards a more humane and workable ap- tralian politics, and it is clearly an opportu- proach and, specifically, that the Woomera nity for us to highlight the role that the Aus- Detention Centre be closed. We are seeking tralian Democrats have played on many is- the support of the Senate and I urge all sues, including protection of the environ- senators to support that motion. ment, human rights, education and, of Since the last parliament some significant course, accountability in government. I am new laws, particularly on a domestic level, proud to lead a party that has changed the have come into effect. The new private sec- face of politics in this country by opening it tor privacy laws came into effect on 21 De- up to scrutiny and bringing greater diversity cember last year—an area that has been of to the parliament. I would like to take this particular interest to me over the past six opportunity to pay tribute to a very special years that I have been in parliament. The Australian Democrat, Sam Hudson, who has Democrats welcome the new laws. We have been our national secretary for 21 years and been calling for such laws for more than a has recently resigned from that position—21 decade because we have always believed that years of good work and certainly a lot of privacy legislation should extend to the pri- good humour. vate sector. The legislation therefore is long One anniversary project that we are put- overdue. It is a good start, but we still think ting forward is a speaker series. The speaker there is long way to go, particularly if we are series will occur throughout the year and it really serious about protecting the privacy of will highlight the leading role that the Aus- all Australians. We opposed very strongly tralian Democrats have played on a range of the exemption of political parties from that issues, including world heritage, antinuclear legislation. I think it is a little hypocritical campaigns, native title, women’s issues and for political parties to not have to subscribe honesty and accountability in government. I to the same laws that we are in effect im- look forward to informing the chamber over posing on other aspects of Australia, not only the next few months of some of the key the Public Service due to the last privacy speakers that will be part of that event. laws but now the private sector as a conse- quence of the laws that came into effect on It is notable that many of the issues that 21 December. the Australian Democrats put before the electorate back in 1977 when we were first In relation to genetically modified foods formed are still an important part of our and labelling specifically, labelling laws work, as evidenced, for example, by the came into effect on 7 December last year. number of private members’ bills that the Again it is a step in the right direction. Again Democrats have drafted and asked the gov- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 161 ernment to consider. We actually introduced racy, we must not compromise or weaken 16 private members’ bills in the last parlia- those very freedoms that we seek to defend. ment. In addition, another 17 bills had been The revelations in recent days about the De- put back before the parliament. As most fence Signals Directorate intercepting calls people would know, we only get a couple of to and from the Tampa have breached the goes, maybe two turns a year, when we actu- rules that prohibit them from spying on Aus- ally have the opportunity to do private busi- tralians except under extreme circumstances. ness. That is on a Thursday afternoon, of That is why the Australian Democrats are course. This parliament we are going to ask seeking an inquiry into this matter by the the government to consider our private Inspector-General of Intelligence. I have members’ bills, and I can think of a number I given notice of this proposed inquiry to the have on the Notice Paper relating to issues Senate, and we are very keen to ensure that like prohibiting patenting of genes and gene any results of such an inquiry are available to sequences, captioning for the deaf and hear- the Senate. I think that is an essential part of ing-impaired and, for example, my private any inquiry. member’s bill in relation to genetic privacy The government has also signalled its in- and nondiscrimination. I would be very keen tention to go in hard on its old favourite of to see some of these forward-looking issues, industrial relations reform, concentrating on particularly in relation to biotechnology, fi- more changes in unfair dismissal laws, im- nally reach the chamber for debate, and not plementation of secret ballots in relation to only that but hopefully come to a vote. strike action and preventing the collection of The Governor-General in his speech high- bargaining fees from workers who are not lighted some of the federal legislation that is members of unions but who might benefit due to come to the federal parliament this from enterprise agreements. Much of this year. The legislation that is likely to come agenda, as we know, has been before the before the parliament in the first half of this Senate, has been exhaustively debated and year includes the RFAs, changes to media has been largely rejected. Unfortunately for laws, ASIO and related security powers, in- Australian employers and employees, this dustrial relations of course and probably tired agenda is more about politics and pos- further toughening of how this government turing than it is about good policy or prob- treats asylum seekers. The Labor Party may lem solving. Where are the reforms that will support the government on some of these create jobs? Where are the reforms that will issues, but the Democrats expect that we will assist industry on a systematic rather than a hold the balance of power on some others. knee-jerk basis and face up to the realities of The Australian Democrats will consider unemployment and underemployment? They changes to media ownership laws only if are the reforms that Australians want to see they encourage media diversity. The Demo- come to the parliament. They are the ones crats remain committed to increasing levels that will make a real difference for Austra- of diversity in media ownership; that is our lian families, for workplaces generally and very clear objective. The Democrats do not for employers. see foreign participation in the Australian There has been a significant decline in the media sector as a bad thing per se. However, number of jobs in Australia, partly hidden by any changes to foreign media rules should a fall in the number of Australians looking not decrease Australian control of our media, for a job and a continuing rise in part-time result in decreased Australian content or employment. While the official unemploy- have a deleterious effect on the number of ment rate in Australia is 6.7 per cent, season- Australian jobs in the media sector. ally adjusted, which is up from 6.3 per cent a We will also closely scrutinise any new year ago—and I acknowledge there will be security measures proposed by the govern- new data out on Thursday—other surveys of ment. We recognise that security is an essen- employment show a much more serious tial requirement for defending democracy. problem, with unemployment estimated to be However, in the process of defending democ- around 10 per cent. This figure also hides 162 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 some of the serious regional problems and a government and its drafters. What it is about widening gap between the cities, outer sub- is unfairness. The Australian Democrats urbs and the country. Over the past year, al- have been on the record many times on this most 60,000 full-time jobs have disappeared issue: we will not trade rights for phantom from Australia, and all the net job growth has jobs. The vast majority of unfair dismissal been in part-time, casual, less secure jobs. applications are made under state laws, not Three-quarters of the unemployed are look- federal laws. Changes to our federal laws ing for full-time work, yet the new jobs that will not affect most unfair dismissal applica- are being created in Australia are part-time tions. That is the reality, and that is why we jobs—indeed, most of them are casual. With have opposed these changes previously. more than eight unemployed people for Taxation reform will continue to be an every vacancy, it is obvious that more needs important component of the government’s to be done. Bigger sticks, more penalties and agenda. There were enormous problems with tougher breaching, however, are the wrong the implementation of the new tax system. responses to a simple shortfall of jobs. The Democrats were quick to point out some Young Australians and the many older Aus- of the flaws and we have indicated a willing- tralians who face longer periods out of work ness to work with the government to resolve deserve better. some of these issues. I note that Senator The Democrats are determined to put the Helen Coonan has a watching brief on this issue of employment creation, the issue of issue, as the assistant to the Treasurer, and I this seemingly intractable problem of unem- look forward to working with her in my ca- ployment, back onto the political agenda and pacity as the Australian Democrats’ treasury to keep it there. It was noticeably absent spokesperson. The Democrats would wel- from the debate during the federal election. come any proposals that will simplify pa- Now it is time to get it back on the agenda perwork for businesses, but for small busi- and for government to actually address this ness in particular. issue and the issue of creating sustainable, The government also indicated—and this meaningful, long-term jobs. We want the was evident in the Governor-General’s government to use its next budget to deliver speech yesterday—that it is interested in as- some hope for the unemployed in this coun- sisting families with workplace responsibili- try by encouraging the creation of new ties. To do this is going to take more than jobs—particularly, of course, in regional la- words; it will take more than a small tax bour markets. break for families as well. I hope we see The government has signalled its com- more this term from the government than the mitment to once again try to roll back rights lip-service it has already given to the issues on unfair dismissal, particularly for those of work and family. That means it has to take employed in small businesses. Such legisla- steps that matter to families. As the Gover- tion has been refused several times, on the nor-General recognised yesterday, during the straightforward ground that it discriminates election Prime Minister John Howard an- against a class of employees. The govern- nounced a $1.2 billion tax break for new ment actually contradicts itself on this one. It mothers. Under the plan, mothers would be says, on the one hand, that it: refunded the tax they paid on income earned ... will continue to believe that Australian society in the year before the birth of their child. The is fundamentally built upon principles of fairness Democrats support the aim of this initiative and decency and the premise that opportunity and we will support this initiative. However, should be available equally to all ... we believe it will least benefit those women But one of the first bills it is introducing into who need that support most. For example, this new parliament will directly discriminate over a five-year period, a low-paid woman in against a class of employees—those in small full-time work will receive a tax benefit of business. To suggest that this approach is $2,900, compared to $12,500 for a woman something to do with fairness is surely tes- on around $53,000 per annum. tament to a lively sense of irony among the Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 163

Tax benefits that favour the rich and apply may boast about its $1 billion over five years only on the birth of a new baby are not going for greenhouse gas abatement, but clearly we to benefit all Australian mothers; they are are still not doing enough in this country to certainly not going to give equal benefits to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and reduce Australian mothers. What women want is land clearing. Given that we have been as- paid maternity leave. They need support to sessed as a country that is worse than the take time off around the birth of their baby, United States when it comes to reducing as well as for the birth of course, not just a greenhouse gas emissions, we must address financial benefit down the track. The Aus- this. tralian Democrats are on record as being In closing, the Australian Democrats, who committed to 12 weeks government-funded introduced to this parliament the concepts of paid maternity leave for all Australian environmental sustainability and world heri- women. tage, will continue to pursue legislation that We anticipate that this year’s budget could protects Australia’s unique and precious be a harsh one. We urge the government not natural heritage. We will continue to oppose to continue the cuts to education and social the selling off of key public assets, including services that marked its first two terms. Al- opposing the further sale of Telstra. Ac- ternate areas of budget restraint could be countability is, always has been and contin- government advertising and, of course, the ues to be a priority for the Australian Demo- perks for retiring politicians. According to crats. This government’s record in providing the Daily Telegraph—and I am not sure information to the Senate is one of the worst whether or not we believe on occasions that in parliamentary history, and that has to be so-called esteemed publication—the gov- addressed. Finally, we hope that all partici- ernment spent $187 million on advertising pants will deliberate wisely at the Common- campaigns and self-promotion, and that was wealth Heads of Government Meeting in only last year. That made it Australia’s big- March. We pay due tribute to Her Majesty— gest advertiser—it was previously the third Senator Heffernan—Have you got a new biggest. The newspaper pointed out that what dress for it? the government spent on advertising could have provided 19,820 university places or Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Senator 12,460 heart bypasses. Since 2002 is not an Heffernan, I am paying tribute to Her Maj- election year, presumably the government esty the Queen in this her Golden Jubilee will spend less. We certainly encourage it to year—and, of course, I have already offered spend less. One area of expenditure that the my condolences on the death of Princess Democrats will not drop as a matter of de- Margaret. I look forward to a time when we bate is the issue of parliamentarians’ entitle- have an Australian head of state, but I do ments, particularly those of former parlia- recognise the extraordinary work the Queen mentarians. does, especially as a high profile powerful woman in public life. Time does not permit me to talk in detail about the innovation, technology and higher If an Australian republic is unlikely in the education aspects of the Governor-General’s next government term, we at least have a few address, but I am sure some of these will be sporting events to look forward to. I point to taken up by my colleagues. In relation to the the examples of the Ashes tour in 2003, the environment, in his speech yesterday the Youth Commonwealth Games in 2004 and, Governor-General expressed the need for a indeed, dare I forget, the Gay Games in whole-of-government approach to sustain- 2002. So there are some things to look for- able environment issues to be one of the ward to. There is an interesting parliamen- highest priorities for the government’s third tary agenda, and certainly the Democrats will term. I am very pleased to hear that this is a continue to put both policy and legislative high priority. It is something that we support. pressure on this government to ensure that However, there is going to have to be a lot our laws are the greenest, the fairest and the more done. For example, the government most accountable. I move the amendment as circulated in my name: 164 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

That the following words be added to the ad- elected a coalition government but know that dress-in-reply: there are deficiencies that the coalition will “, but the Senate is of the opinion that: be unable to rectify over the next three years. (a) the government must move towards a Our role in opposition is to continue to more humane and workable approach to highlight this. I do not think it will be that asylum seekers; and difficult. If you are lacking in attributes as a (b) Woomera detention centre should be leader, as I believe John Howard is, it be- closed”. comes painfully obvious. The government’s Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- behaviour with regard to the Tampa crisis— ritory) (12.39 p.m.)—In rising to speak in this their ongoing stance and their inability to debate on the address-in-reply, I would like acknowledge that the campaign they ran was to focus on several themes. In the short time fundamentally racist and divisive in nature— I have available, approximately six minutes, continues to divide society. On the other I cannot help but address the question of hand, we in opposition are now working to leadership. Over the last six years of the try to find policies that are humanitarian and coalition government, we have had a Prime compassionate and that provide, as we said Minister of this country who has not dis- during the election campaign, a long-term played any of the attributes of leadership that sustainable solution. We have taken respon- I know Australians have come to expect and sibility in opposition for these issues in a look for in their Prime Minister. What we way that the coalition never have and, I be- have had, as we have moved into this phase lieve, never will in government. Yet that is of our national development, is a person at their role; that is their job. It is ironic that it the helm of this country who has highlighted is Labor—from these benches; from this the politics of division as being the key fea- side—that continually find themselves taking ture of his prime ministership. This was the responsible position on matters of such never more clearly displayed than in the great importance. It is no wonder that the election campaign leading up to last year’s coalition in government pay so much of their election. In place of true moral and ethical attention to what we are doing and to our leadership, we had a Prime Minister who agendas—because, despite not being in gov- was prepared to use wedge politics—and by ernment, we do take those issues seriously that I mean target issues in an election cam- and want to provide an alternative to the paign which knowingly polarise and divide people. opinion within a country—rather than move I would like to talk about the govern- towards creating consensus and understand- ment’s agenda. In the speech yesterday, we ing as a means by which to garner the sup- heard a really pitiful attempt to try to both port necessary to win the election. rewrite the record of this government and Leadership was so obviously lacking un- create a third-term agenda. One of the glar- der the coalition government right up until ing indictments of the coalition leading up to that point when the Prime Minister started the election campaign was that they had no using the slogan of leadership under the aus- third-term agenda. They obviously felt they pices of (1) division with the Tampa and did not need a third-term agenda because the asylum seekers affair and (2) the genuine politics of division would deliver the elec- international crisis relating to the September toral outcomes the government were pursu- 11 attack in New York. The role that the ing. The third-term agenda that the govern- Prime Minister played throughout that period ment have now constructed is hilarious in its was not one of leadership of the statesman- blandness. It is a restatement of policies that like quality that Australians have come to they uttered many, many years ago and a expect—not only during a crisis but also whole lot of generalities about future direc- through the whole period of prime minister- tions. There was very little substance in the ship and governance. That is something speech yesterday. which I think is still at the forefront of the Debate interrupted. minds of many Australians, who have re- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 165

MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST into aspects of migration law and immigra- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT tion law and practice in Australia. I am, in (Senator McKiernan)—Order! It being another capacity, a member of the Human 12.45 p.m., I call on matters of public inter- Rights Subcommittee of the Joint Standing est. Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade and participated in that inquiry into Immigration: Asylum Seekers detention centres. I have visited detention Senator PAYNE (New South Wales) centres in Australia on more than one occa- (12.45 p.m.)—Some of those remarks of sion. Last year I visited and inspected Senator Lundy’s were quite interesting, and I Tinsley House immigration detention centre cannot wait to hear what the rest of her in the United Kingdom. I visited the port of speech contains. I rise to speak today in this Dover and met with staff from the Migrant matters of public interest debate to, in part, Helpline and senior officers of Her Majesty’s acknowledge Senator Hutchins’s invitation Customs and Excise. I met with and was in last night’s adjournment debate—I ac- briefed by officials from the United King- knowledge it with care, given that he is from dom’s Home Office concerning immigration, the New South Wales Right and one would detention and border control. I have consid- count one’s fingers afterwards if one shook ered in some depth the policy implications of his hand—and to confirm the record on the different national approaches, including our issue of asylum seekers which, unlike Sena- own, and more particularly the international tor Hutchins’s implications, does not require macro issues involved. correction. I have applied what I hope has been some I note that our colleague had never spoken knowledge developed in this process and in the Senate, as far as I can ascertain, on some experience in these matters to contrib- either immigration or mandatory detention ute to debate in the community, within my before last night. Given that he is a new- party room and within the parliament. I have comer to this debate and would not have any spoken not as a bleeding heart, which appar- of the depth of your expertise, Mr Acting ently is a pejorative in Senator Hutchins’s Deputy President McKiernan, I am very view, but as someone who realises the prac- happy to explain some of these issues on tical challenges facing government. I which I have been focused for a very ex- strongly endorse the government’s desire to tended period of time. Perhaps the good maintain a balanced migration plan, which senator’s background as a prominent New includes a generous humanitarian component South Wales trade union official and leader but focuses on skilled and family reunion of the ALP’s New South Wales Right explain streams. I support the UNHCR’s assessment his basic contempt for compassion and his and resettlement program, and I actively and oversimplistic, combative approach to an vehemently discourage and oppose people issue that calls for serious-minded debate smuggling. That in no way detracts from the and a concern for some of the victims of concern that I hold for the people in this pro- global politics; or perhaps it is just easier to cess and most particularly for asylum seek- throw stones and make no constructive con- ers. I do not step back one centimetre from tribution oneself. Only he could tell us that. focusing this chamber on the plight of, for It was alleged in this chamber last night example, Bhutanese refugees in Nepal, de- that my position on refugee policy has been tainees in Aranya Prathet in Thailand, or the inconsistent. Quite the contrary: I have in- living conditions of women under the former deed maintained a very consistent position Taliban regime in Afghanistan—issues on on issues relevant to mandatory detention, which I have spoken at length in the past. immigration and the international movement Senator Hutchins said that I had a series of of people. As you would know, Mr Acting different public positions on issues concern- Deputy President McKiernan, as Chair of the ing refugees. He said of my speech of 19 Senate Legal and Constitutional References September 2001 that he felt I was wearing Committee I have chaired several inquiries my heart on my sleeve and criticised me for 166 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 showing ‘compassion’. He said last night tention centres are no places for women and that a letter I sent to constituents in Eden- children, and I commend the minister, as I Monaro was inconsistent with my speech in have previously, for the Woomera trial re- the Senate. To assist in this process, I would lease of women and children from detention. like to compare the two. In my speech on 19 I will spend a moment talking about those September I said: alternative detention arrangements for some I want to emphasise, as the Prime Minister has, women and children detained at the that we and every country have the right to decide Woomera Immigration Reception and Proc- who comes to our country and in what circum- essing Centre in South Australia. The first stances. volunteers were moved into accommodation In a letter I wrote to constituents in New in the Woomera township on 7 August last South Wales, I wrote: year for a project that will run for between I share the Prime Minister’s belief that Austra- three and six months. They will be con- lians should decide who comes to this country stantly monitored and evaluated by DIMIA. and the circumstances in which they come. Woomera was chosen because it is close to In my speech I said: an established community, which makes it I abhor people smuggling ... and we should easier to establish the new procedures re- strengthen our provisions in dealing with that. quired. Those arrangements were put in place only after extensive consultations with In the letter I said: the Woomera community, a number of fed- I share his— eral departments, the South Australian gov- referring to the Prime Minister’s— ernment, and leaders of ethnic community commitment to upgrade our maritime surveillance groups. The eligible women include women capability by purchasing new long range surveil- with children who have a family member lance aircraft and state of the art radar and tele- remaining at Woomera, their female children communications technology. of any age, and their male children 12 years So I think that refutes, very effectively, the of age and under. implications made in Senator Hutchins’s I go back to the point that I made in Sep- speech last night. He would do well to re- tember and have made on a number of occa- examine the record. I repeat today the call sions since. This is not just a problem for that I made in my speech on 19 September Australia. This is an international problem of that we should look at the challenges that the the 20th and 21st centuries—people move- UNHCR faces and the lack of resettlement ment. It is one of the impacts of globalisa- programs in other refugee convention signa- tion. It is one of the impacts of conflict. I tory countries. There are, after all, 139 sig- take up Senator Scullion’s words in his first natories to the convention and only 12 coun- speech today: if someone rings you and tells tries which, in any real substance, take in you they have the answer, hang up. It is not refugees for permanent resettlement. I that easy to solve. It is a problem which maintain that the United Nations is capable Australia and other Western developed na- of taking a lead on this issue and should con- tions and other signatories to the refugee sider convening a special session on refu- convention of 1951 have an obligation to gees, reviewing the implications and the op- pursue on an international and cooperative eration of the UN convention in the 21st basis. It will not benefit in any way, shape or century. form from cheap, simple, base politics. I might be criticised for being a bleeding I note that in his remarks last night my heart, but at least, unlike my critic, I have New South Wales Senate colleague indicated taken the time and effort to consider this is- that he was concerned by some attendance of sue and make a contribution to the discus- mine at rallies. I am assuming he did not sion. I am proud to have taken a compas- mean the launch of a website which I at- sionate stand on the position of women and tended last year on behalf of the Attorney- children, and I do not shrink from my earlier General at HREOC. They would find it con- comments in that regard. I maintain that de- fusing to hear that launch described as ‘a Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 167 rally’. I assume he did not mean my repre- intentions in a way I never would have sentation of the Prime Minister and the Min- thought possible. In Lindsay in 1996, we ister for Immigration and Multicultural and won the seat with an 11.8 per cent swing to Indigenous Affairs at the closing ceremony the Liberal Party. In 1998, the member for of the International Human Rights Day event Lindsay, Miss Jackie Kelly, increased that on 10 December by Vietnamese youth swing by 0.3 per cent. In 2001, against a groups and Amnesty International. If per- candidate whose name I believe was David chance it was the latter, then perhaps the re- Bradbury, who I understand had been the marks I made then should be put on the rec- Mayor of Penrith and one might say a pro- ord here today. I said then: tege of Senator Hutchins, the swing achieved ... now more than ever human rights must be de- by Miss Kelly was 2.44 per cent. fended by countries such as Australia, not only In Parramatta, where my office is—coin- for our own citizens but for those who live in cidentally, so is Senator Hutchins’s office— other countries, who by no fault of their own, find we won the seat in 1996 with a swing of 7.11 themselves in situations of unrest. per cent to Ross Cameron, the member for I do not think that is an unreasonable propo- Parramatta. He managed to increase that sition. It would be stretching a very long bow swing by 2.8 per cent in 1998 and in many to describe it as such. ways, like myself, was written off post- It is not entirely surprising that the speech redistribution and told that Parramatta would made by Senator Hutchins last night did not be a very hard seat for him to hold. Ross contain a great deal of substance. He has Cameron managed to bring against David been otherwise occupied in the public ex- Borger, previously the Mayor of Parramatta, amination of post-election entrails, which a swing of 3.64 per cent to retain the seat of can be a very time consuming process. In the Parramatta, somewhat handsomely for Mr Australian on Monday, 3 December last year Cameron. in an article with the subheading ‘The New Let me finish by referring to a seat which South Wales Right’s disintegration is preg- gives me some particular personal pleasure. nant with national implications’, Glenn The seat of Macarthur was significantly re- Milne said: distributed after the 1998 federal election. It In the words of one senior Left figure who’s changed substantially. A former employer watching the entire saga with delight: ‘Leo’s got and good friend of mine, the Hon. John Fa- no friends. One thing about the NSW Right, when hey, did not recontest selection for the seat of there’s a carcass swinging in the breeze they’ll Macarthur. That preselection was won by Pat devour the lot.’ Yet McLeay thinks he’s still Farmer. The campaign in Macarthur was kicking. When he was bulldozed by Crean over long and arduous for all concerned, but for- the new frontbench, one of the victims was McLeay’s mate, former Transport Workers Union tunately for people in Western Sydney it was boss and state Labor president Steve Hutchins. In won in an overwhelming fashion by Pat tried-and-true fashion, McLeay put his mate up Farmer with an 8.65 per cent swing to the for the frontbench. Crean knocked him over. Liberal Party over the Labor Party. In one’s Hutchins, according to those close to the event, efforts in Western Sydney and in one’s ac- has been in a rage ever since. The pair have been tivities in the parliament, it is always better plotting revenge. to put results on the table rather than to And so the entrails go on in Mr Milne’s arti- mouth invective. That is what I have done cle. One imagines that coming to matters of today. substance might be something which is not a South Australia: Election current focus for the good senator. Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (12.58 The most enormous pleasure I have p.m.)—I do not intend to get involved in the gained since I was appointed to the Senate in battle of Western Sydney here today. Today’s 1997 is being based in Sydney’s Greater editorial in the Adelaide Advertiser states: West: a burgeoning economy, an amazing On Saturday— landscape and amazing people who have meaning last Saturday— shown their wisdom through their voting 168 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 the Democrats were walloped in South Australia. But my reason for speaking here today is No ifs. No buts. the Prime Minister’s comment on this last It goes on to say: Sunday. The Prime Minister could not get up ... they deserve to be initiated into the Self-Denial and say that they had a wonderful vote in Hall of Fame. South Australia, when it had dropped below That editorial points out that the Democrat 40 per cent of the primary, so he quite clev- vote has slumped from one election to an- erly diverted attention and attacked the other from 16.3 per cent to 7.3 per cent. Ex- Democrats—and that is an admirable thing pressing it in that way does not bring out the to do at any time, I suppose. What he said full drama of the vote. When you say you are was that the Democrats are too close to La- down three, four or five percentage points, it bor. That is a lot of gratitude, isn’t it, when depends where you came from originally. In the Democrats put the Liberals’ GST fact, the Democrat vote crashed by over 55 through. But, leaving that aside, it was part per cent. It sounds more dramatic to express of a Liberal Party campaign to say that, in it in that way rather than to say that it the last election, the Democrats were too dropped just nine points. To explain this, the close to Labor, and this comes out of the Democrats say, ‘We’re going to launch a Liberal national secretariat. They said, ‘The review.’ What a waste of time. If they are Democrats sent some preferences Labor’s going to have a review, they should have a way in the last federal election.’ Let us put review into their 1997 result and ask why it the record straight on this: the Democrats did was so high, not why their 2002 result was preference deals with Labor and with Liberal so low. The reality is that the 1997 result was in the last election. The Democrats negoti- quite abnormal; their 2002 result is quite ated, quite properly, with officials of the La- normal. bor Party and officials of the Liberal Party. Of course, when that result happened in So this rewriting of history by the Liberal 1997 the hallelujahs went up. We were told, Party, as though it was a one-way street, that ‘This is the dawn of a new era.’ Yet most of the Democrats only talked to Labor and did us, most of the pros in politics, knew it was not talk to the Liberal Party at all, is quite an aberration—we knew it would last one mind-boggling. The fact is that the Liberal state election and get washed out of the sys- Party—and I have no objection to this—did a tem. I mean, the 1997 result is easily ex- preference deal with the Democrats in 1996, plained. Firstly, you had an incumbent Lib- in 1998 and in 2001. I remember the 1996 eral state government that was lacklustre and deal well because they sent preferences di- uninspiring. Secondly, the electorate clearly rectly to the Liberal candidate against Kim judged that the Labor alternative was not yet Beazley in the electorate of Brand. The Lib- fit to assume office so they marked us down eral Party in Western Australia did not really in 1997. Thirdly, you did not have any alter- demand preferences in marginal seats at that native protest groups—the Greens did not time; they got them in the two seats where run, One Nation was not in formal existence the independents were running—in Curtin and the Democrats got the entire protest vote and Moore—just to try to give them the edge in 1997, in their strongest state, and, yes, did to get elected in those two seats. There is poll 16 per cent. It was just an aberration. So nothing wrong with that, but let us put it on while we have got all this analysis at the the record that deals were done. moment as to why the Democrat vote col- I am not sure of all the details of the deal lapsed, it has simply returned to normal. this time but I know some of it. Let us take Remember that last Saturday you had the New South Wales. The Liberal Party negoti- Greens running, you had One Nation running ated to get preferences from the Democrats and you had a Christian based party offering directly in the seats of Wentworth, Macarthur an alternative, so a lot of the protest vote that and Farrer. They chose those seats at a time would naturally accrue to the Democrats when they were about 15 points ahead in the drifted on to other parties as well. polls. Clearly, if they knew how close it was eventually going to be, they may not have Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 169 chosen those seats. Let us take Victoria. In that allows their coalition party to dud them. Victoria there were three key marginal seats: But at the moment it is like taking candy Ballarat, McEwen and Dunkley. The Demo- from a kid. crats did not send preferences to Labor in This brings me to the second reason for any of those three seats but they did send speaking here today and that is that we are them to the Liberal Party in Dunkley. So in about to watch one of the great cons in po- the three key marginal seats in Victoria it litical history occur in this country. It is go- was the Liberal Party that was the benefici- ing to occur at a state level and it is to do ary of Democrat largesse and not the Labor with the coalition. Three previous conserva- Party. They also sought preferences in Indi. tive governments in Western Australia, When we have a look at Queensland we Queensland and Victoria were coalition gov- see that the deal was done: preferences were ernments—the Liberal Party and the Na- delivered in Blair, Kennedy and, I believe, tional Party together forming the govern- Wide Bay, to the coalition parties. For ment. But in each case the defeat of those heaven’s sake! The Liberals did their negoti- coalition governments has seen the coalition ating and they got what they wanted. Labor dissolve. So in Victoria, Western Australia might have got what they wanted. The and Queensland we have the coalition par- Democrats got what they wanted. Why ties—the Nationals and the Liberals—going would the Prime Minister now start to argue in their own direction. They are doing that so that the Democrats were so close to Labor? they can work both sides of the street at the Why would the national secretariat of the same time—there is no question about that. Liberal Party try to infer that the only deal They are doing it because they do not want done at that election was between Labor and to get blamed for each other’s sins. But what the Democrats? they then intend to do is to go into each one Of course, I do enjoy the fact that in both of these three state elections as separate par- New South Wales and Victoria the Liberal ties with a vague promise of forming a coa- Party delivered coalition preferences to the lition afterwards. Democrats in the Senate whilst at the same That is not good enough for the electorate; time seeking preferences for the Liberal that is deceptive politics. The electorate will Party candidate in Farrer and in Indi, where expect to know what a future state coalition the major competitor to their interests was government in any one of those three states the National Party. In other words, take the stands for—not some sleazy backroom deal totality of the coalition vote, trade the second done after the election for the convenience of preferences to the Democrats but in turn holding office. But that is the great con that have the Democrats send their preferences to they intend to perpetuate on the Australian the Liberals ahead of the Nationals in the electorate in all three states. You can say two three-cornered contests. That is the sort what you like about New South Wales—at of formula that was done. least we will know the nature of the future In the end, I have to say, they dropped coalition government there. It is entirely un- their demand in Indi. They kept it in Farrer known in Western Australia, in Victoria and because Farrer was close. So they would not in Queensland. We will have three-cornered get caught out on this they surveyed Indi and contests, we will have different policies found that they were so far in front, and the adopted by the Liberal Party and the Na- National Party were so far gone, that they did tional Party and somehow, magically, they not insist on getting preferences over the are supposed to come together afterwards National Party in Indi. You really have to and form a government that is coherent. We wonder about this stratagem. Of course, it is want to know in advance what policies are easy to orchestrate in the face of such inept going to be jettisoned in the negotiations to and naive political leadership as the National form a coalition government in those states. Party have provided at a federal level here. We are not going to let the great con con- You could never have imagined a Nixon, a tinue. Sinclair or an Anthony letting this con go by 170 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

I must say, reflecting on the election re- vate me. One is the view from Turnbull and sults, that the Labor Party must accept that it others that politicians should stay out of the was defeated at the last election but that it argument. They did, basically. The best ar- still has a role to play in opposition. There is guments on politics are had by politicians. no use complaining about what happened in They are the best advocates, and they are the election campaign. We did not win. We more likely to get a better response out of the now have a role to play. But I caution the electorate than talented amateurs and dilet- government and others about triumphalism. tantes. Yet constantly we are told to leave it This is the fact: the coalition in 2001 re- to the amateurs. We were told that in the ceived exactly the same preferred vote as the 1988 referendums. Remember those? All Labor Party did in 1998, and in 2001 the La- four got beaten, got thrashed. We were told bor Party achieved exactly the same pre- then by Labor people: ‘Let’s leave it to the ferred vote as the victorious coalition parties councils and others to argue.’ But I say, ‘Get did in 1998. It is a bit like grand finals—I am politicians in there; let them run the argu- sure you have all been through it. A grand ment.’ final has been won by five or six points, it is The second thing I want to say is that the close, and within a week people are writing Republican Movement narrowed the agenda articles about the winner and the loser is ‘ter- time and time again to not look radical. That rible’—they played the ‘worst game in his- was the mistake they made. I heard Senator tory’, even though bad luck or something Stott Despoja talk about an Australian head else may have caused the result. That is hu- of state today. I could not care less about an man nature, and we have to accept that. All Australian head of state. What the republican said and done, the last federal election ended argument is about is whether you believe in up being fairly close. It is not a massive monarchy—not how the head of state comes mandate for the coalition parties. They re- about or who appoints them. We have an ceived exactly the same vote in 2001 as La- effective Australian head of state. That was bor did in 1998. proved yesterday when His Excellency the I want to mention two other matters. Governor-General, the Right Reverend Dr Senator Payne was talking today about refu- Peter Hollingworth, opened the parliament. gee policy and asylum seekers. People talk What the republican argument is about is: do about ‘principle, compassion and pragma- we believe in inherited positions? Do we tism’. I do not want to go into any details on believe in sublimating ourselves to history? that, but any immigration policy and any Do we believe that a monarchy is superior to entry policy of this country must be based on the rest of us? Have we so little trust in our- principles. Once you establish those princi- selves and our other fellow Australians that ples, proper compassion and humanity will we believe an inherited power base is right? follow. But the policy must be established on It is absolute rubbish. If the republican principles. There must not be an emotive and movement is to succeed, they are going to reactive thing on either side of the fence, have to extend into a more radical position of either on the redneck side or the bleeding arguing consistently about monarchy, and not heart side. You must establish principles and, use the code words ‘Australian head of state’ where principles clash, you must resolve it. et cetera because they do not have the guts to But more of that on another occasion. take up the argument. At least the monar- I was not here for the republican referen- chists took up the argument much better than dum of 1999. Eighteen months ago in the the republicans. So, when we do have this Labor Herald I wrote an article that said that debate again, let us question whether monar- any attempt to have an appointed president chy is a justifiable institution. I say it is not, of this country by way of a referendum to the and I think most Australians agree with me. people on republicanism was bound to fail. Kendall, Mrs Carol Nothing ever changed my mind on that. That Senator RIDGEWAY (New South is exactly what transpired. Two things came Wales—Deputy Leader of the Australian out of that campaign that continue to aggra- Democrats) (1.13 p.m.)—I would like to Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 171 dedicate this speech to a truly inspiring Abo- It should not have been a surprise to any- riginal woman from New South Wales, Mrs one that Carol would follow in his footsteps Carol Kendall. Sadly, my tribute to her today and take up the baton for another generation follows her passing earlier this year on 15 of Aboriginal people. In hindsight, it is clear January, after a two-year battle with cancer. that something instinctively drew Carol to But her family and friends and the many her Aboriginal heritage and back to the Australians whose lives she touched will members of her own family, as if fate had remember Carol Kendall’s tireless energy in intervened to ensure that those ties were fighting for justice and recognition, particu- never severed. With the assistance of the larly for the stolen generations and their organisation that became known as Link-Up, families. Carol Kendall found her Aboriginal mother, I want to record something about her lar- Mary Maynard Kondek, when she was 35. gesse in life, her selflessness in the way that She discovered that she was one of 29 sib- she dealt with these issues and the way that lings. She connected with her Aboriginal she offered herself to many families across family in a very deep and enriching way, the country. Carol was one of those rare peo- while remaining a treasure in the lives of ple whose life story really gives meaning to Violet and Harry Laird, her adoptive parents. the phrase ‘the power of one’. She was an It was this experience that steered Carol to outstanding Aboriginal leader and a dedi- her life’s work of reuniting families across cated activist for the stolen generations. the country, and her Aboriginal and white What is extraordinary about her life story is families stood solidly behind her. that up until the age of 20 she had no knowl- Even before the current debate and the edge of her aboriginality. She had been views and reviews surrounding the practice adopted into the loving home of Violet and of the removal of children, Carol was Chair Harry Laird when she was six weeks old, not of Link-Up in New South Wales for two knowing that she had been born Toni Susan years and its coordinator for a further nine Maynard, the daughter of an Aboriginal years, helping hundreds of people across woman, Ms Mary Maynard Kondek. This New South Wales take the journey that she knowledge came to her in later life when she had taken herself. began to search for her own family and rela- From here it was a natural progression for tives. Carol to take on the national political scene During her search for family, Carol found as consultations were getting under way for that she was not the first of her mob to advo- the National Inquiry into the Separation of cate for Aboriginal people on the national Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Chil- stage. Her grandfather Fred Maynard, a re- dren from their Families. She helped run 22 turned World War I soldier and leader of the forums across New South Wales to prepare Australian Aboriginal Progressive Associa- Aboriginal communities for what would tion in New South Wales, had been a promi- come to be known as the ‘Stolen Genera- nent campaigner for citizenship rights for tions’ inquiry. She attended most of those Aborigines in the 1920s. I believe his efforts inquiries to support people who came for- have led to many of the changes that we see ward to tell their stories and share their pain now in the year 2002. Later in her life, Carol with a nation unprepared for their revelations used to remind people that in 1927 her and harrowing truths. grandfather had asked the then Premier of For Carol, there was only one way to deal New South Wales to ensure that the family with the legacy of the stolen generations. It life of Aboriginal people be held sacred and was recommended at every forum by every free from invasion and interference and that Aboriginal person and it was the primary children be left under the control of their recommendation of the Bringing them home parents. Looking back over her life’s work report that resulted from the inquiry— and her warrior spirit, it is clear that Carol namely, that there be a national apology. It inherited her grandfather’s passion and sense was no surprise to anyone who knew Carol of justice. that she would become a key figure in the 172 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 chain of events that led to the first calls for a children. Carol was involved in this special national apology, nor that she would con- ceremony and, with the Rock behind her, she tinue to lobby for this outcome as long as she was painted up by her northern sisters in lived. She marked that campaign with her Central Australia and joined them in their own special blend of courage, integrity and ancient dances. focus. As Debra Jopson wrote recently in the The last few years of Carol’s life were es- Sydney Morning Herald: pecially busy, even though she was becom- Carol ... wept with and counselled those who had ing ill. She started a project with the New been taken, helped to reunite fractured families South Wales National Parks and Wildlife and lobbied for a national apology. Service to take women aged in their 70s and She was bewildered and in great pain at the 80s back to their traditional lands, particu- Prime Minister’s refusal to say sorry in 1997. larly around Toomelah in the north-west of Like many members of the stolen genera- New South Wales. During this time, she ac- tions, Carol saw saying sorry not as a guilt quired a Bachelor of Welfare degree from the inducing statement but as a necessary recog- University of Western Sydney—although nition of the suffering that Aboriginal people one of her lecturers and close friends, Ms have endured—and the only means by which Rhonda Ansiewicz, commented that Carol they could begin a self-healing process. ‘taught us more than we taught her’. In 2000, In 1998, she accepted the position of Co- after being diagnosed with cancer, Carol chair of the National Sorry Day Committee, conducted five-day workshops across the with every confidence that even those who country for the Marumali program, training appeared deeply conservative could come to Aboriginal health practitioners to help heal understand the need for a national apology. members of the stolen generations suffering As co-chair, Carol oversaw the thousands of trauma. Last year, when her health improved events across the country that commemo- a little, Carol accepted the position of Co- rated the first anniversary of the Bringing patron of the Journey of Healing, along with them home report, including the opening of former Prime Minister Mr Malcolm Fraser. the Sorry Books so that one million Austra- Her last public statement was a strong lians could make their own personal apolo- protest at the exclusion of the stolen genera- gies to the stolen generations. Carol under- tions from the commemoration of their story stood that the wounds of the removal policies at Reconciliation Place, here in Canberra. were not just confined to indigenous Austra- Last December she called a rally on the is- lians. This was a national injustice that had sue, and only her husband Bruce’s sudden affected every Aboriginal family, and its death prevented her from speaking at it. She consequences for all Australians had been knew that proper consultation was vital to compounded by generations of denial, cover- healing and, as always, she was ready to up and secrecy. fight for the things she believed in. In 1999, Carol and the committee While Carol will be remembered most for launched the Journey of Healing with the her work with the stolen generations, she aim of offering the whole Australian com- also worked energetically in a number of munity the chance to help overcome the different indigenous organisations across wounds resulting from the separation poli- many areas of need, including education and, cies. As Chair of the Journey of Healing, she more particularly, child care. sought out white Australians caught up in the She was, in my view, one of the most de- administration and implementation of the serving recipients of the Order of Australia, separation policies who were prepared to tell for her services to the indigenous community their stories and asked the media to feature this year. Although Carol was aware that she them as well as the stories of the stolen gen- was to be awarded this honour, she passed erations. One of the other seminal events away before it was presented to her on Aus- organised by the Journey of Healing in 1999 tralia Day. Receiving it on her behalf was was the welcome home given by the Mutit- Carol’s sister, Jackie Bedford, who com- julu people of Uluru to removed indigenous mented that she was thrilled and really, really Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 173 happy. She was proud to receive the honour South Australia. I cannot disagree with some but the top accolade for Carol would have of the remarks made by my colleague Sena- been to hear the Prime Minister being able to tor Ray earlier in this debate, but I will make deliver that national apology. a few more remarks either this week or next At the time of Carol Kendall’s death, I week, when we know the result of the elec- called her a stolen generations’ warrior. The tion. ATSIC Commissioner for South Australia, I want to speak today about the issue of Mr Brian Butler, paid tribute to her—and I asylum seekers. I wish to speak about this quote: matter because there is obviously an ongoing ... determination to achieve recognition for the debate about it not only in the community plight of separated families [which] has provided but in the Labor Party. Mr Crean and Ms an abundance of strength to people working on Gillard, the spokesperson for immigration Link-Up programs throughout the country ... for the Labor Party, have launched a discus- Carol’s standards, philosophy and principles will sion paper to which all members of the party never fade—they will be carried forward in the are contributing. I have already made one work that each of us does as we strive to match contribution, for what it is worth. I notice, her enormous contribution to our communities. Mr Acting Deputy President McKiernan, that Carol is survived by her daughters, Vanessa because of your deep and knowledgeable and Belinda; her grandchildren, Jade, interest in immigration matters, having re- Mykela and Zane; and her parents, Violet, gard to your work in the past as chair of the Harry and Mary. I extend my sincere condo- relevant joint committee, you are serving on lences to Carol’s family and to all of those the estimates committee that will look at this whose lives were touched by hers. Most of matter. So a major debate on our policy on all, given the life story that she has left be- asylum seekers has been under way in the hind, we all have much to learn from her Labor Party since the election. example, and we inherit a great legacy to Before the last election I represented the uphold for our future generations. then shadow minister for immigration mat- South Australia: Election ters, Mr Con Sciacca, in the Senate. During Immigration: Asylum Seekers the last week before the parliament rose for Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) the election, some people might say that I (1.25 p.m.)—Some people might think I in- drew the short straw, therefore, of having to tend to speak about the South Australian explain the Labor Party’s policy of agreeing election, but in view of the uncertainty about with the government on so many aspects of the final result as to who might end up in its policy on asylum seekers. I remember government I might, wisely, wait for a few being strongly berated by the Democrats and more days until we actually see what the the Greens about why we were supporting outcome is. the coalition. I was berated because I was exposing some of the deficiencies in the leg- I compliment Mike Rann and the Labor islation but I was still voting for it. I have to Party for the excellent campaign they ran say that it was uncomfortable, because the over the last month. With the date of the legislation, as I said then, would not work in election having been announced in early the long term. But I also explained that it January, for the first 2½ weeks most people was a pragmatic decision. We were not going in South Australia were not even aware that to get wedged politically on this issue during an election was to be held; they were still the campaign; there were bigger and more busy, quite rightly, with their holiday inter- important issues before the Australian peo- ests. It was a good stunt by the Liberal Party ple. Living standards, the roll-back of the to announce an election in January, knowing GST, education and health were much more that people would not be showing that much important to the broad range of Australian interest, so that they could try to scrape people. through the campaign with the least amount of interest in or examination of what the Lib- In one sense, I was relieved that the gov- eral Party had been doing, or not doing, in ernment in the end gagged the debate, be- 174 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 cause it meant I did not have to spend an- major party with a base vote strong enough other day on my feet going through the in our own right to win government. At the package of bills, particularly the one relating federal election our first preference vote to mandatory sentencing. When I was chair- dropped to 37 per cent. We got some of it man of the parliamentary Human Rights back as preferences but, as I have just seen in Subcommittee of the Joint Standing Com- South Australia, where we got 36.7 per cent mittee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and of the first preference vote, it was too low to Trade, in our first report, which I presented win government where you have a clear at the National Press Club as well as in this mandate, where you have an absolute major- parliament, I made it clear that I did not sup- ity on the floor of the parliament. The Labor port the policy of the Western Australian Party must get back to winning a base vote. Labor government at the time when it intro- At times that may well mean taking tough duced mandatory sentencing. I have never decisions on one side of an issue or the other. supported mandatory sentencing. I saw what But where we try to mirror and agree with happened in the Northern Territory and the the government, hoping that that will be the disgraceful episodes there—kids as young as way we do not lose votes, we lose votes on 12, 13 and 14 being put in jail for stealing $2 both sides of the spectrum. I think that is or $3 worth of goods while someone who what happened on the asylum seekers issue. committed company fraud, when hundreds As my colleague Lindsay Tanner, the fed- of millions of dollars may have been stolen, eral member for Melbourne, pointed out, would get a suspended sentence. There was when you do the two-party preferred vote no rhyme or reason, in equity terms, for put- between Labor and Liberal in his seat of ting young kids in jail for 12 months for Melbourne, it is over 70 per cent Labor. But stealing $2 or $3 while company fraudsters if you do the two-party preferred vote be- who diddled large sections of the Australian tween Labor and Greens, he now sits in an public for millions of dollars were let off. extremely marginal seat—52 per cent. He It was uncomfortable for me to have to nearly lost the seat to the Greens in the elec- say that, in the case of the package of bills, tion last year. I see Senator Boswell frown- mandatory sentencing was to be supported, ing. It is true, Senator Boswell. He got under but I explained our pragmatic decision. 50 per cent of the first preference vote, the During the election campaign, we got it on Greens got 15 per cent, the Democrats got 10 both sides of the head and we got it in the per cent, and I think the Liberal Party got in back of the neck from both sides. Those in the low 20s. So the Democrat preferences the community who supported the Prime went to the Greens, the Greens went ahead of Minister believed we were still too soft and the Liberals, the Liberals gave preferences to did not trust us to be as tough as the govern- the Greens ahead of Labor, there was one ment, if we were in government, in rejecting minor candidate or a couple of others, and it asylum seekers. Other people in the commu- turned out that, if there had not been a leak- nity who did not agree with the government age of preferences from some of the smaller said we were awful for agreeing with them, parties, the Greens may have won the seat. and they did not vote for us either. It was a The next election will not be a contest classic. We took a pragmatic decision. I think against the Liberal Party; it will be a contest we were forced to. I could not see any way against the Greens. So it is not just a matter out other than taking that decision, uncom- of the Labor Party looking at the drift of safe fortable as it was. It was a decision taken seats in our blue-collar areas, like Western after some discussion in the caucus of the Sydney and some suburbs of Adelaide, it parliamentary Labor Party, but it meant that also has to look at how to hold seats like in the end we lost votes from both ends of Melbourne—a traditional safe Labor seat, the spectrum. where committed Labor people went and, in At the moment the Labor Party is trying to protest, voted Green on the issue of asylum respond to the question of how we rebuild seekers. our support in the community in order to be a Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 175

This comes back to the issue that it is im- dertone and an undercurrent of racism about portant that the Labor Party review its policy it. Playing to the visceral fear of Australians on asylum seekers. I certainly am strongly of that the yellow hordes of Asia would come the view that we have to change it. I come down and take over this country in one form from the state that has the most controversial or another has been an undercurrent in Aus- detention centre anywhere in Australia, tralian politics for 150 years. If it was not the called Woomera. It is not a detention cen- Russians, it was the Red Chinese, or the In- tre—let us not beat around the bush—it is a donesians, or the Japanese. Only the Japa- jail. It has double fences with razor wire, it nese made an effort to get here. All the other has categories of detention for detainees in situations have been trumped up in some different sections, it has guards, and it is in scare campaign. an environment that is pretty hostile, to say Let us be honest about it: if the asylum the least. Some of us are more interested in seekers arriving from boats were from Great getting Woomera back up as a space Britain or from America, or if they were launching facility—something we can be white farmers from Rhodesia, now called proud of. The Woomera we now have is a Zimbabwe, we would welcome them. There blot on Australia’s reputation. I, as a South is no argument about that. There would not Australian, would rather have Woomera seen be a visceral fear campaign. That is what this as a place of something positive and con- Prime Minister has let loose. He has got a structive, like launching rockets and showing political advantage in the short term; he won our best in science and technology, rather the election. But there is no doubt his stand- than our worst, by having an ongoing con- ing and the standing of our country, in our troversy about the management of a deten- region and in the world, have been seriously tion centre that is really a jail. damaged in the long term. The present posi- Of course, I am also a bit annoyed that tion is unsustainable; it has to change. Woomera seems to cop it all the time. Gov- I look forward to the debate in the Labor ernments want to put nuclear waste there. In Party, and to getting a more suitable and the 1950s at Maralinga, near Woomera, there more appropriate policy to deal with the is- were atomic tests. I would just like poor old sue of asylum seekers. It is not a mass prob- Woomera to be given a new chance of hav- lem we have, but it is a problem. We want to ing a reputation and an image of something make sure that no-one arrives here illegally positive and constructive, rather than always but, remember, most of the illegal immi- being seen as somewhere where nasty things grants in this country are from Great Britain happen. The way Woomera is at the moment and are people who have overstayed their is a blot on Australia. Whatever is the argu- visas. Every year 60,000 people overstay ment about what the detainees have done— their visas. They are here illegally in this the damage they have done to property or the country but, because the biggest number of self-mutilation of sewing of lips—it goes out them are from Great Britain, you do not find to the world that something odd, at the very people screaming and shouting about it. You least, is going on here. I do not like it hap- do not find the Prime Minister conducting a pening in my state, I do not like it happening fear campaign that we are about to be in my country, and I do not think we can af- swamped by people coming illegally from ford to let it go on much longer. That is why Great Britain or anywhere else in Europe. the policy has to change. They are Europeans. They are white. They This government may crow privately that are like us and they are more acceptable. It is they pulled a great stunt to win the election harder to beat up a fear campaign against on the fear campaign of asylum seekers, but people from Great Britain than it is against in the long run they have done enormous people who have brown skin, a different re- damage to Australia’s standing. Let us not ligion and who come from a different part of beat around the bush on this. The visceral Asia. nature of the asylum seekers campaign This is why I think the Prime Minister’s launched by the Prime Minister had an un- campaign was despicable. In the short term 176 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 he won a great election victory which he is ment on communications from the MUA or able to crow about, but he has done Austra- the ITF. The director has also categorically lia’s international standing long-term dam- ruled out the allegations that transcripts of age. The policy will have to change. I look comments by the MUA and the ITF were forward to being part of it within the Labor provided to the government, as alleged in the Party, either in this place or in the broader newspaper articles. community, until we get a decent policy on Senator FAULKNER—Madam Presi- asylum seekers of which we can all be proud dent, I ask a supplementary question. Minis- and which shows that Australia is still an ter, given that you made that statement pub- open country—not for illegal people, but for lic, could you please answer the question I people who are genuine refugees. have directed to you, because you have not Sitting suspended from 1.40 p.m. to 2.00 addressed it. That is, did DSD collect or re- p.m. port on—not target—communications in- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE volving Australians? That is the issue. I ask you: can you assure the Senate that DSD Defence Signals Directorate neither collected nor reported on communi- Senator FAULKNER (2.00 p.m.)—My cations involving Australian organisations or question is to Senator Hill, the Minister for citizens? If you are unable to provide that Defence. Minister, I refer to your press re- assurance to the Senate, will you seek that lease yesterday relating to the activities of assurance from the director of DSD and re- the Defence Signals Directorate during the port back to the Senate on the matters that I Tampa crisis. In particular, I refer to your have raised? assurances that neither the communications Senator HILL—As Senator Faulkner of the Maritime Union of Australia nor of the knows, DSD is concerned with foreign intel- International Transport Federation were tar- ligence, and it had to operate within what geted by DSD and that: were then the rules—because we are talking ... DSD did not provide any reporting to the Gov- about the rules as they existed at the time of ernment on communications from the MUA or these particular matters. I suspect that Sena- the ITF. tor Faulkner or certainly some on his side Can the minister assure the Senate that DSD know what those rules are. The assurance neither collected nor reported on communi- that I have been given is that— cations involving Australian organisations or Senator Robert Ray—They’ve just been citizens, as opposed to communications put down in legislation. Everyone knows you originating from those organisations or citi- legislated last year on them. zens? Senator HILL—No, the old rules, Sena- Senator HILL—I am a bit puzzled by the tor Ray. I am talking about the old rules, and question, so I will remind the honourable the copy I have seen was 1994, and so they senator of exactly what I said yesterday. As clearly applied at the time of the last gov- Senator Faulkner knows, the usual response ernment and were then updated in 1998, with in these matters is to say, ‘I can neither con- cabinet approval. As I understand it, they are firm nor deny’, but we did think that yester- not published rules, but DSD had to operate day’s reporting was so extraordinary—and in within them, and that is part of the safeguard particular I referred to the potential damage and the security apparatus that exists to en- to public confidence caused by those inaccu- sure that there is not abuse. And DSD, I am rate reports—that it was necessary to lay a assured, with one small exception, operated few facts on the table. What I said was that within those rules. the director had confirmed that neither the communications of the Maritime Union of Economy: Government Policy Australia nor of the International Transport Senator CALVERT (2.05 p.m.)—The Federation were targeted by DSD. More spe- first question from this side for the year is to cifically, the director has advised that DSD the Leader of the Government in the Senate, did not provide any reporting to the govern- naturally, Senator Hill. Would the minister Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 177 inform the Senate how the government in- The coalition will continue to exercise tends to fulfil its mandate from the Austra- sound economic management for the benefit lian public to continue its impressive record of Australia and Australian families. Con- of responsible economic management? trast this to the Labor Party, the Australian Senator HILL—This is the subject matter people recognised the record of the Labor that the opposition does not want to hear Party—a legacy that could only be described about. It was their failure to recognise and as shameful. There were tax increases when respond to economic questions that largely it promised tax cuts, interest at a high of 17 cost them the last election. The coalition per cent, unemployment reaching a high of government is one that has delivered. It has 10.9 per cent, a $10.3 billion black hole defi- delivered tax cuts, budget surpluses and re- cit, $96 billion of government debt run up sponsible economic management in a time of between 1990 and 1996, an average inflation economic instability and global downturn. rate— The Australian economy grew by a strong Senator Cook—This is rubbish. 1.1 per cent in the September quarter of 2001 Senator HILL—Senator Cook, you are and by 2.5 per cent in the year to that quar- down there these days. They had an average ter—faster than the major OECD economies. inflation rate of 5.2 per cent—a terrible leg- Furthermore, Australian economic growth in acy. It was that contrast between sound eco- 2002 is forecast to outperform most other nomic performance that has benefited all industrialised countries. The Economist poll, Australians and that terrible record which published this month, forecasts Australia will was the primary reason Australians returned be the fastest growing industrialised econ- the Howard government so overwhelmingly omy in 2002 of the 15 OECD economies in at the last election. the survey, including the United States, Japan and many European countries. The Dun and Defence Signals Directorate Bradstreet survey and the National Australia Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.09 p.m.)—My Bank survey, both published this month, re- question is also directed to Senator Hill, the ported that there is a growing optimism in Minister for Defence. Why has the minister the Australian business community and that limited his request to the Inspector-General Australian businesses have continued to of Intelligence and Security to review his show a great deal of resilience, given the own records from the period of the Tampa events of 11 September and the weakening crisis? Given that it is the role of the inspec- global economy. Indeed the National Aus- tor-general to ensure DSD and other intelli- tralia Bank stated that business confidence gence agencies operate within the laws and was now at a seven-year high. guidelines which they are subject to, why has Interest rates continue to be at the lowest the minister not requested the inspector- levels in three decades—under the coalition general to thoroughly investigate the allega- government a saving of over $300 per month tions that DSD has intercepted communica- in interest to the average home owning fam- tions involving Australian organisations and ily. We have created some 840,000 new jobs citizens and that the intelligence thus gained since we came into government—that is, 400 was used by the government to formulate its jobs per day. Exports are predicted to hit a political response to the Tampa crisis? record high of $90.5 billion in the 2001-02 Senator HILL—I can advise the Senate year. This has been described by some com- that Mr Blick has responded to my request mentators as a golden era for commodities. that he review the records. The point is that it Housing finance and building approvals is Mr Blick’s responsibility to supervise, in were, as we know, at very high levels—up the public interest, this intelligence gathering by 15 per cent and 30 per cent respectively— body, which he does. He has decided that it over the year to December 2001. This is due is appropriate to conduct an inquiry under to historically low interest rates and the ex- the IGIS Act, which will begin immediately. tension of the overwhelmingly successful The inquiry will deal with the following: First Home Owners Scheme. DSD’s intelligence collection activities dur- 178 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 ing the period, so far as they may be relevant need? What is the government’s record on to the allegations that have been made; the detecting those who cheat the system? authority for such activities; whether such Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator activities were in accordance with the rules Knowles for the question. She has had a on Sigint and Australian persons applicable longstanding interest in social security mat- at the time; DSD’s reporting during the pe- ters in her 17 years in parliament—she is riod so far as it may be relevant to the alle- now in her 18th year. This government is gations that have been made; the authority committed to ensuring that social security for such reporting; the distribution of reports; payments are targeted to those most in need. whether such reporting was in accordance We want to ensure that the social security with the rules; and any other relevant matters system remains affordable and sustainable. arising in the course of the inquiry. I expect With 6 million clients, we understand that if that his findings, when reported, will be every one of them has just $4 a week extra made public. that amounts to $24 million. We simply can- Senator CHRIS EVANS—Madam Presi- not afford for people to have more than they dent, I ask a supplementary question. I thank are entitled to and we certainly cannot afford the minister for his answer. It was not clear to have unentitled people claiming benefits. from that answer whether the Inspector- From 1 January 2002, assets and income General is now conducting a wider inquiry held in private trusts and private companies than that requested by the minister. It appears are included in assessments for social secu- to be much broader than the instructions rity purposes. This has produced some inter- from the minister. Could the minister provide esting results. A single home owner who was information as to on what basis the inspec- receiving the maximum rate aged pension tor-general has taken that decision? Is that in actually controlled a discretionary family response to complaints from members of the trust with assets worth over $350,000. You public or is that his own initiative? Could the will be pleased to know that that person is no minister also clarify for me just exactly what longer receiving the aged pension. Another reporting will be provided to the parliament case of a single man getting a part-rate par- and to the Australian public? enting payment had control of a company Senator HILL—He indicates that, in ad- that had a net profit in that year of $47,000. dition to the request that he has received You will be pleased to know that he is no from the government, he had received a longer getting the part-rate parenting pay- written complaint under the Inspector- ment. Our commitment to ensuring the dol- General of Intelligence and Security Act. He lars go to only the needy is also illustrated by also noted the fact that there were various other work on compliance. motions being moved in the Senate. As I Take the example of a 52-year-old female recall his legislation, if he receives a com- who simply did not notify Centrelink of the plaint he is obliged to investigate it and to death of her mother-in-law for some seven provide the complainant with his conclu- years, collected her mother-in-law’s payment sions. Obviously, they are made public to and banked it. There is a total debt of that extent. If they are going to be made $71,000. She was convicted and sentenced public to an individual then it would be my on 22 November last year to 18 months in view that they should be made properly pub- jail—and I understand she will spend at least lic, and we will ensure that that occurs. nine of them in there. Then there is the Pensions and Benefits: Social Security 43-year-old man on a disability benefit who, Senator KNOWLES (2.12 p.m.)—My because of a tip-off from one of the custom- question is directed to Senator Vanstone, ers, got dobbed in. He was actually running a Minister for Family and Community Serv- kebab shop—on a disability benefit and he ices. Will the minister please inform the Sen- was running a kebab shop. So we will be ate of recent initiatives that the government saving money because his disability support has taken to ensure that social security pay- payments, Madam President, you will not be ments are actually directed to those most in surprised to know, have been cancelled. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 179

Equally, a tip-off from a customer was re- Opposition senators interjecting— ceived that there was a gentleman working as Senator Robert Ray—Getting verballed. a cement renderer: a 56-year-old male, again on the disability support benefit. I understand The PRESIDENT—Order! Shouting in there is a wide range of disabilities, but it is the fashion that is occurring on the benches hard to imagine someone who needs a dis- to my left is disorderly. Senator Ray, I call ability benefit working as a cement renderer. you to order. Surveillance was used, and that person’s Senator HILL—Senator Ray interjects, payments have been cancelled. We now ‘Getting verballed.’ He is obviously sug- move on to another case of a 31-year-old gesting that what I am saying is incorrect. male in Victoria who was collecting the My understanding was that the Labor Party Newstart allowance—the equivalent of the supported the action that the government old unemployment benefit. We had a tip-off, took to protect Australian borders. I under- again, that he was operating a carwash busi- stood that is what the Labor Party said ness. So what does surveillance show? It throughout the election campaign: the Labor shows him opening the carwash, working the Party claimed to be strong on border control. carwash, instructing everybody else how to What does that mean? Does that mean that use the carwash—and collecting the benefit. the Labor Party can be strong on border He was convicted and fined, and he was or- control but not utilise what legal resources dered to repay all of those moneys to Cen- are open to it to protect Australian borders? trelink. Opposition senators interjecting— Australia is a very generous country. We The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw sena- have a broad-based and very generous wel- tors’ attention to the standing orders. Shout- fare system. But taxpayers expect the money ing in the fashion that is going on at present to go to the needy and not the greedy. Tip- is in breach of the standing orders, and con- offs from the public increased by 31 per cent sequences may follow. last financial year. The message is there: Senator HILL—No matter what the La- somebody knows that you are cheating; they bor Party might say, no matter what it really might get angry with you one day, pick up might think, the position is that this govern- the phone and dial 137 230 and dob you in— ment, the Howard government, is committed and every other Australian will congratulate to protecting Australia’s borders. It has done them for doing so. it in the past and it will do it in the future, Defence Signals Directorate and it will utilise the resources that are open Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.16 p.m.)—My to it to do it—within the law—and it will do question is directed to Senator Hill, the so, if necessary, in the future. Minister for Defence. Did the then Minister Senator Robert Ray interjecting— for Defence, Peter Reith, or the government Senator HILL—If that is what I am being issue any request or requests to DSD in rela- asked, that is interesting, because that is not tion to its interception of communications to what the question was. and from the MV Tampa? If so, did that re- quest or those requests authorise DSD to The PRESIDENT—Order! The inter- collect communications involving Australian change going on at present is disorderly. organisations or citizens? Senator HILL—Breaching national bor- Senator HILL—I must say that I am ders is, in the opinion of our government, a somewhat confused because, at the end of matter of national interest, a matter of na- the last parliamentary sitting, I understood tional concern. We are entitled to utilise the that the Labor Party supported border pro- intelligence resources that are open to us, tection; I understood that the Labor Party provided that that is done within the law— supported the action that the Australian gov- and that is obviously the only way in which ernment took in relation to the Tampa when the Howard government would operate, and it breached Australian borders. we will maintain that position. But, having said that, we will continue—unlike the Labor 180 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Party—to provide performance that matches the new intelligence committee is set up in rhetoric. So, instead of just saying when it relation to administrative and financial mat- suits you politically, ‘We support border ters, it will give the public greater confidence control,’ we will actually deliver the better as well. outcomes. Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator CHRIS EVANS—Madam Presi- The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy, I dent, I ask a supplementary question. The have drawn your attention to the standing minister’s understanding of the Labor posi- orders several times already. You are being tion is right: we did support proper border disorderly. protection. But the question, Minister, is: have you acted lawfully; has the government Defence Signals Directorate acted within the rules? Your own press re- Senator GREIG (2.22 p.m.)—My ques- lease yesterday indicated at least one breach tion is also to the Minister for Defence, that you admitted to yesterday. It is a ques- Senator Hill, and relates to his press release tion of whether the law has been breached or dated 13 February, today. I ask the minister political manipulation has occurred. The to reflect on paragraph 2 in his press release, question I asked that you did not answer was which reads: whether the then Minister for Defence, Peter The director— Reith, or the government issued any requests that is, the director of the DSD— to DSD in relation to its interception of has advised me that he has reviewed all intelli- communications to or from the MV Tampa. gence reports relating to the issue of border pro- Could you answer that question, please? If tection in the relevant period. so, did that request or those requests author- ise DSD to collect communications involv- The relevant period is stated as being 29 ing Australian organisations or citizens? August to 10 September 2001. Minister, They are perfectly appropriate questions that given that the MV Tampa appeared in Aus- you did not answer when first given the op- tralian waters some three days before the portunity to do so. 29th—that is, on the 26th—why were those three days not considered relevant? Was it The PRESIDENT—Senator Evans, when possible that phone tapping may have oc- directing a question or supplementary ques- curred on the 26th, 27th and 28th of that tion, it should be addressed through the month, which may have involved the MUA chair, not across the chamber to the minister. or the ITF? If so, why did the minister not Senator HILL—The honourable senator clarify that in his statement? does not appreciate that the principal safe- Senator HILL—I chose the first of those guard that has been put in place to ensure dates because I understood that to be the date that there is not abuse is the office of the In- that the MV Tampa breached Australian bor- spector-General. The Inspector-General has a ders. But, to put the mind of the honourable legislative basis. He reports to the parlia- senator at rest, I have asked the director if he ment. His charter is set out. As I understand would check his records further back, and he it, he does monthly surveys. He can assure has now confirmed to me that he has done the parliament that, in fact, any intelligence so—as far back as 1 August. As far back as that has been targeted or gathered is within that date, the statement that I made based on the law; that is his job. his advice to me is equally valid. Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator GREIG—Madam President, I The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy, it is have a supplementary question. I ask the not your place to be shouting like that. minister for clarity; there is some conflicting Senator HILL—I have already said, as speculation on this. Did the phone tapping far as this government is concerned, it would which occurred in relation to the Tampa be- always operate within the law—always. In gin before or after Australian SAS troops relation to the Inspector-General, he gives boarded the ship? the Australian public extra protection. When Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 181

Senator HILL—There has never been fully briefed by the Department of Defence any acknowledgment that there was phone on this issue before he spoke out? Will it tapping in relation to the Tampa, so that continue to be the practice of the Minister for question is inappropriate. Defence to allow other ministers to speak out Defence Signals Directorate on matters within your own portfolio respon- sibilities? Senator FAULKNER (2.24 p.m.)—My question is directed to Senator Hill in his Senator HILL—You are struggling for capacity both as minister representing the questions on the first day, I would say. What Prime Minister and as Minister for Defence. I heard Mr Abbot say was that this is a gov- Minister, can you confirm that it has been a ernment committed to protecting our bor- longstanding practice not to comment on ders. In saying that, he was absolutely right. security and intelligence operational matters, Howard Government: Population Policy because of the risk of jeopardising Austra- Senator HARRADINE (2.27 p.m.)—My lia’s national interest in making any such question is directed to Senator Hill, the min- statement? I think you said something to this ister representing the Prime Minister. Has the effect earlier in question time in answer to a government adopted a population policy question I asked. Given the minister’s state- which addresses the challenges posed by ment last night on the DSD interception of Australia’s rapidly ageing population? Isn’t it MV Tampa communications, will it be stan- a fact that, from the year 2008—only six dard practice for the federal government to years from now—the 65-plus age category give statements on security and intelligence will take over from the 45 to 65 age group as operational matters, or will statements such the fastest growing category in Australia? as this be made only when a minister be- Doesn’t this have serious implications for lieves that it is in the political interests of the current social, economic, health, immigra- government to do so? Can you now clarify tion, taxation and family policies and pro- what the situation is in relation to these grams? In particular, what is the government statements? doing to address the major cause of Austra- Senator HILL—That is typical of Sena- lia’s ageing population—the continuing de- tor Faulkner’s questions. If we had not ruled cline of Australia’s birth rate and of the total out this matter in relation to the unions, what fertility rate since falling below replacement would be being said today? We know what level in 1975? (Time expired) would be being said. The ALP is the political Senator HILL—This is obviously an im- arm of the union movement, and you would portant issue and basically I believe that be saying what you said yesterday, and that Senator Harradine is correct. The age profile basically is that we were seeking information of Australia is changing. We are an ageing for political benefit. That is why it was ruled community in a relatively young nation and a out, and that is why, in the statement, we relatively young economy, and that is obvi- said: ously of concern. The government, as Sena- In the light, however, of the potential damage to tor Harradine would be aware, has conducted public confidence caused by this morning’s inac- extensive research towards policy develop- curate reports of a few facts, those facts need to ment in this area. I remind him of the infor- be laid on the table. mation paper, ‘Low Fertility’, by the De- The general practice will remain. In this ex- partment of Family and Community Serv- ceptional circumstance it was decided on a ices, which looked at data on fertility and the whole of government basis to vary it. causes of fertility decline. I remind him of Senator FAULKNER—Madam Presi- the research associated with the development dent, I have a supplementary question. Did of the national strategy for an ageing Austra- the minister authorise the Minister for Em- lia, a framework to address the economic and ployment and Workplace Relations, Mr Ab- social impact of population ageing across the bott, to speak publicly on this issue yesterday government, business and community sec- because it was an exceptional circumstance? tors. I remind him, also, of the Access Eco- Could I ask whether Minister Abbott was nomics report ‘Population, ageing and the 182 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 economy’, launched by the former Minister Senator ELLISON—I understand the bill for Aged Care, and Professor Peter McDon- will be introduced shortly. I do not have the ald’s research on the impact of immigration date at hand. But I can say this bill has been on the ageing of Australia’s population. misunderstood widely. In fact, it is a bill What I am a little surprised about in which does not seek to change the law as Senator Harradine’s question, however, is such but simply the form in which it is ex- that there did not seem to be a recognition of pressed. The Attorney-General has put out a the actions that the government has been statement in relation to what this bill pur- taking. I think we can fairly say we are the ports to do. It does not seek to gag the press. most family friendly government there has It does not seek to stop whistleblowing. It been. There has been a bias in our taxation goes to the national security of this country. policies, there has been a bias in other poli- As I say, there has been widespread misun- cies, towards support of families and in par- derstanding of the nature of this bill. It does ticular families with young children; and, as not seek to change the law, and that has been Senator Harradine knows, there have also stated by the Attorney-General. It merely been specific taxation and other policy ini- seeks to change the form in which it has been tiatives to support spouses who decide to expressed. That is it in a nutshell. remain at home rather than go into the work Senator LUDWIG—Madam President, I force. But despite that bias in favour of ask a supplementary question. The minister families it is still the case, for a range of so- has indicated to you, Madam President, that cial and economic and other reasons, that the it is likely that the bill will be introduced trend is continuing. What that means is that shortly. Is it the intention of the government the government must not rest on its laurels. It to introduce the bill during the current par- must continue to develop policy based on liamentary sitting? If the government is of good research and advice. That is why the the view that there is a problem out there of research effort has been so extensive: to en- widespread concern, can the government sure that we continue within our budgets and indicate that it will be introduced in the cur- within our economic program as a whole to rent parliamentary sittings, with the appro- support parents that are having children and priate explanatory material? the cost to parents during, particularly, the Senator ELLISON—This has been af- years in which those children are young. forded priority by the Attorney-General and That remains our bias. We do not apologise the government. It goes to the national secu- for that. We think it is in the national interest rity of the country. I will refer this to the At- for the very reasons, in part, that Senator torney-General and see where that bill is at Harradine has outlined in his question and the moment in relation to its introduction and also in part because we think it contributes to advise Senator Ludwig accordingly. a healthy society. Fisheries: Border Protection Criminal Code Amendment (Espionage and Related Offences) Legislation Senator SCULLION (2.34 p.m.)—My question is to the Minister for Forestry and Senator LUDWIG (2.31 p.m.)—My Conservation, Senator Ian Macdonald. Will question without notice is to Senator Ellison the minister outline recent measures to representing the Attorney-General. When maintain the sovereignty of Australia’s wa- does the government intend to reintroduce ters and protect the integrity of our fisheries? the Criminal Code Amendment (Espionage Is the minister aware of any alternative poli- and Related Offences) Bill 2001? Has the cies? government reconsidered the legislation in the light of the widespread concerns that it Senator IAN MACDONALD—It is in- would have the effect of increasing penalties deed an honour for me to receive a first for Public Service whistleblowers and for question from our distinguished new senator, those who receive information from them? If Senator Scullion. Congratulations, Senator not, why not? Scullion, on your very fine first speech ear- lier this morning. For those who do not Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 183 know, Senator Scullion had a distinguished scarce fish species. It also demonstrates that term as the Chairman of the Australian Sea- we are prepared to look after our domestic food Industry Council. Accordingly, I am fishing laws and are helping those who are well aware that Senator Scullion would be licensed to fish for this unique species. very interested in matters of our resource The boats being apprehended will arrive security. in Fremantle midway through next week, and Perhaps I could start by answering the AFMA and the DPP will continue investiga- second part of the question first. That was tions. It is estimated that the Lena and Volga about whether I am aware of any other alter- have around 200 tonnes of alleged illegal native policies. Like 18 million other Aus- catch of patagonian toothfish, and that is tralians, I am not aware of any alternative nearly 10 per cent of the total legal catch for policies to the Howard government’s com- this fish in Australian waters. The estimated mitment to strong borders. I have certainly landed value of the suspected illegal catch is read a number of opinions from various $2.5 million. There are very severe penalties: members of the Labor Party. Many of them forfeiture of the ships, a $550,000 fine for seem to be contradictory, so neither I nor any each offence if found guilty and individuals other Australian seems to know what they can be sent to jail. What this all demonstrates stand for. But I live in hope that on the mat- is that the Howard government is determined ter of border security and territorial and re- to protect our sovereignty, to protect our re- source security we will get bipartisan support sources and to protect our border security. from the Labor Party. Insurance: Health Funds I am also very proud to announce that on Senator McLUCAS (2.38 p.m.)—My 5 and 7 February this year the Royal Austra- question is to Senator Patterson, the Minister lian Navy and officers of the Australian for Health and Ageing. Can the minister con- Fisheries Management Authority appre- firm recent reports that 34 of Australia’s 44 hended two Russian flagged fishing vessels, health funds will be seeking premium in- the Lena and the Volga, suspected of illegally creases, with effect from 1 April this year? Is fishing within the Australian economic zone there extra funding to pay for the govern- off Heard and McDonald Islands. I particu- ment’s 30 per cent share of the soon to be larly congratulate the officers, men and approved increases? If so, how much has women of the Royal Australian Navy and of been put aside? If not, where will the money the two ships, Canberra and Westralia, who come from? braved five-metre waves, 35-knot winds and temperatures below five degrees on this par- Senator PATTERSON—The government ticular mission. Their success in quite ap- is committed to keeping private health insur- palling conditions is a testament to their ance affordable. I have recently stated that courage, professionalism and commitment to this government is committed to retaining a duty. I do congratulate them. I also con- 30 per cent rebate on hospital ancillary items gratulate Senator Hill, the Minister for De- so that 8 million Australians can exercise fence, who was decisive in his decisions on choice in having their health needs met— this particular commitment. The successful unlike under Labor when the health funds completion of the operation is, as well, a were bleeding and the then Senator demonstration of the whole of government Richardson said that they were unsustainable action involving the Australian defence and threatening public health as well. forces, the Australian Fisheries Management As in previous years, health funds have Authority and also the Australian Antarctic submitted for government consideration in- Division. It also demonstrates a commitment formation about proposed premium in- by the Howard government to rigorous pro- creases. This is done at about the same time tection of Australian sovereignty and a each year, and I will be taking into account commitment to the Commission for the Con- both financial and public interest considera- servation of Antarctic Marine Living Re- tions in accordance with the legislation. As sources to maintain sustainable stocks of a the government has made clear, any propos- 184 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 als for premium increases that look particu- federal government’s 30 per cent rebate? larly high will be scrutinised very carefully. I What would be the effect on the health insur- will seek the views of my colleagues on a ance rebate to average Australian families if range of public interest matters and, accord- the minister were to win the argument within ingly, am confident that all the relevant in- the government that, for example, dental and formation will be properly considered before optometry benefits should no longer be cov- I make any decision. I expect to be in a posi- ered by the rebate? Or can the minister no tion to advise the outcome of this process in longer float such a proposal, given the im- March. Proposed increases are due to be im- mediate carpeting she received from the plemented from 1 April. I am not prepared to Prime Minister when she mentioned it the comment at this time on any media specula- first time around? tion about the increases being sought by par- Senator PATTERSON—Senator McLu- ticular funds. cas has not been here long enough to realise The last significant rise in premium levels that not everything you read in the press is across the industry was five per cent in 1999. the truth. What I said was totally misrepre- The average premium increase across the sented. I did not indicate in any way that we industry in the last two years has been 1.8 would be looking at ancillaries under the per cent in 2000 and 0.01 per cent in 2001. rebate. I think Senator McLucas needs to be In that time, funds have experienced in- very careful in thinking that everything she creases in membership, costs and claims. reads in the press is the truth. Funds report that they are paying out more Immigration: Woomera Detention Centre benefits than they were in the last financial year. They report a greater than expected Senator BARTLETT (2.42 p.m.)—My increase in claiming levels in both the num- question is to the Minister representing the ber of services and prices of services, pres- Minister for Immigration and Multicultural sure from hospital providers for higher pay- and Indigenous Affairs. Can the minister ments and a drop in investment income. Evi- confirm that Minister Ruddock requested dence of factors such as these is required as South Australian Family and Youth Services part of the application for a premium in- to investigate allegations that were made crease. both by the minister and by South Australian Liberal Minister Dean Brown that adults had Opposition senators interjecting— forcibly sewn up the lips of children inside The PRESIDENT—Order! Interjections the Woomera Detention Centre? Is it the case of the kind that are occurring are disorderly. that Family and Youth Services has con- Senator PATTERSON—I must remind ducted that investigation into the allegations honourable senators that the Labor Party did and provided a report to the minister? Is it not ever reject a premium increase, but they the case that that report concludes that no seem to completely forget those sorts of evidence at all has been found to substantiate things. It should not be forgotten that the these allegations? Will the minister now re- price restraint shown by funds in the past lease the report publicly to ensure that the couple of years has occurred at a great time Australian people can be informed of the of change. Australians now have an opportu- facts? nity to exercise their choice in accessing pri- Senator ELLISON—By way of back- vate hospital services. More people being ground to Senator Bartlett’s question, I can treated in the private sector also means a advise the Senate that there is a memoran- lower demand on services in public hospi- dum of understanding between the South tals. Australian government and the Department Senator McLUCAS—Madam President, of Immigration and Multicultural and In- I ask a supplementary question. Can the digenous Affairs in relation to the situation at minister confirm that recently she herself Woomera, whereby the Department of Hu- raised the possibility of the removal of some man Services, particularly Family and areas of health insurance coverage from the Community Services of South Australia, maintains a monitoring role in relation to the Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 185 welfare, particularly of children, in that cen- carried out an investigation. As to the result tre. of that, I have already answered the question. In accordance with that MOU, I under- Superannuation: Investment Rules stand that a matter was raised in relation to Senator SHERRY (2.46 p.m.)—My this incident of children’s lips being sewn question is to Senator Coonan, Minister for together. I can advise that the Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. In light of Immigration and Multicultural and Indige- the devastating impact on the pension fund nous Affairs was advised by the South Aus- savings of employees in the American firm tralian welfare authorities that they had con- Enron, is the minister concerned about the cerns that adults, specifically parents, were in-house investment rules for corporate su- sewing their children’s lips together at perannuation funds in Australia? Isn’t it true Woomera. An assessment of the situation that corporate superannuation funds in Aus- was undertaken by the South Australian de- tralia are currently permitted to partly invest partment in accordance with the MOU that I in their own businesses, meaning that, if the have mentioned, and the minister was subse- business goes broke, at least some of the re- quently advised by the South Australian de- tirement nest eggs of its workers are also partment that there was no evidence to either under threat? confirm or deny these concerns. Senator Bartlett has asked for a copy of the report. Senator COONAN—Thank you, Senator My advice is that the communication to the Sherry. In Australia only a very small pro- minister for immigration was in the form of portion of funds are allowed to invest in their an advice from the South Australian depart- own businesses. It raises, of course, the issue ment. I will take that up with the minister for of the safety of superannuation. The legisla- immigration to see if I can assist Senator tion in Australia does not allow extensive Bartlett further and, if I can, I will get back investment by super funds in their own busi- to him. nesses. Senator BARTLETT—Madam Presi- Senator Watson—The five per cent rule. dent, I ask a supplementary question. I thank Senator COONAN—Senator Watson is the minister for that answer. Can the minister coaching me from behind about the five per confirm that it is also the case that the recent cent rule. Senator Sherry, the issue that is report, which was also provided to the min- raised by your question is that you appear to ister and which was produced by the Human have absolutely no policy position on super- Rights Commissioner after many days of annuation at all. After the election you said direct investigations inside Woomera, con- that you were going to start with a blank cluded that there was no evidence at all to piece of paper. After 5½ years I would have support the minister’s allegation that adults thought that those sitting opposite, particu- were forcibly sewing children’s lips to- larly Senator Sherry— gether? Will the minister and the government Senator Sherry interjecting— now apologise for making such false and The PRESIDENT—Order! defamatory allegations against the detainees in light of the fact that no evidence exists to Senator COONAN—To bring a question substantiate them? like that into the chamber indicates that you simply do not have much grasp of the area Senator ELLISON—As I stated earlier, you are shadowing. A blank piece of paper is as I understand it, the concerns that were what Senator Sherry— expressed came from the South Australian department, and I certainly reject any allega- Opposition senators interjecting— tion that the Minister for Immigration and The PRESIDENT—Order! I need to hear Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, Mr the answer and I cannot if there are people to Ruddock, made any false or defamatory re- my left shouting. marks or allegations. On the advice that I Senator COONAN—A blank piece of have, as a result of this MOU the South paper is hardly the sort of policy the opposi- Australian authorities raised this matter and tion would have taken to an election with the 186 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 expectation of achieving anything. Even af- Senator ELLISON—This is a very im- ter such a resounding defeat, Senator Sherry portant question and I am surprised the op- still does not appear to have any policy on position does not want to listen, because it is superannuation, whether it be a major of great concern to all Australians in view of amendment to the surcharge or an amend- those tragic events of 11 September last year. ment to the five per cent rule. You said that Prior to the election the Howard government you were going to start with a blank piece of gave a broad and strong commitment to in- paper. Even on prudential matters you appear troducing measures to counter terrorist to have absolutely no idea. It ill behoves threats in Australia, and in particular to pro- Senator Sherry to be worrying about what is tect Australian citizens. As a result of that we happening with Australian funds as far as have seen the Cornall report, which deals investing in their own companies is con- with increasing counter-terrorist measures, cerned because, as Senator Sherry would and the Prime Minister’s announcement in well know, the safety of superannuation in relation to a leaders summit, hopefully to this country is amongst the world’s best, and take place in April this year, whereby we will there is no reason to be worried about an look at tackling terrorist threats, national Enron-type collapse in Australia. security and transnational crime. Senator SHERRY—Madam President, I Senator Mason has asked in particular ask a supplementary question. The minister about airport security and aviation security. is fortunate that she is sitting in front of Part of the commitment of the Howard gov- Senator Watson. The minister appears to dis- ernment was to introduce an air security offi- play no concern about this issue whatsoever. cer program by the end of last year, and we Is she aware that employees of the failed did just that, with the first group of air secu- retail firm Harris Scarfe who had their sav- rity officers flying domestically in Australia ings in the Harris Scarfe superannuation fund on 31 December last year. By the end of this were advised that the earnings on their re- year we hope to have 111 air security officers tirement savings were a negative 3.7 per cent flying in Australia’s skies. This will bring an in part because the fund owned Harris Scarfe assurance to the travelling public in Austra- shares? Does this show that there is still a lia, both to Australian air travellers and to considerable risk in the existing five per cent those tourists who come to Australia, that we limit on in-house investment? In light of the have measures in place to counter any ter- Enron and Harris Scarfe experience, what rorist threat. What we have are people who action does the minister propose to take are thoroughly trained psychologically and in about this risk? every other respect in dealing with extreme Senator COONAN—As Senator Sherry circumstances which hopefully will not arise would know, the Harris Scarfe matter to- but nonetheless we have to be prepared for. gether with a number of other matters is be- We have in place a program which has now ing investigated by ASIC. Those investiga- attracted interest from other countries, such tions are proceeding and the results are not as Canada. I must say that the cooperation yet to hand. It is not appropriate that, during we have received from the United States this investigation, there be any further com- authorities in this regard is greatly appreci- ment in relation to this matter. ated. Airports and Aviation: Security I also announced recently a first response counter-terrorist measure which we have Senator MASON (2.51 p.m.)—My ques- introduced at Australia’s airports. This will tion is to the Minister for Justice and Cus- involve 179 specially trained Common- toms, Senator Ellison. Will the minister pro- wealth uniformed protective security officers vide the Senate with an update on recent being installed at airports such as Sydney, counter-terrorist initiatives to improve airport Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Canberra, Dar- and aviation security? win, Hobart, Cairns, Brisbane, Coolangatta Opposition senators interjecting— and Alice Springs. Importantly, this brings to the same standard as Melbourne and Sydney Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 187 those other airports I have mentioned, those was a calculation for the GDP adjustment other capital city airports and of course those factor for PAYG quarterly instalment taxpay- regional airports at Cairns, Coolangatta and ers for the 2000-01 financial year, and as a Alice Springs, bringing them up to that result of the error the ATO advised taxpayers counter-terrorism first response so that we of inflated quarterly instalment amounts. In have that protection in place and again giv- fact, the amounts involved were so small, ing assurance to air travellers in Australia you will probably be disappointed to hear, that they have this protection that unfortu- Senator Conroy, that 90 per cent of those nately is needed in the environment that we impacted will receive compensation of less are facing. than $10. However, the commissioner has I acknowledge the cooperation the gov- advised me that it is important that people ernment has received from the airline indus- should not be out of pocket, and so the total try, particularly Qantas, and the assistance compensation payable will be in the order of they have given us in training the air security $2.1 million. The compensation will be officers. I also want to touch on the $10 mil- funded from operating costs. lion investment by Qantas in increasing se- The compensation payment is not assess- curity measures in relation to its responsi- able income, and in developing an approach bilities at airports around the country. In fact, to correct this error the ATO has worked with the decision by Qantas to invest $10 million the ombudsman, tax practitioners, small on new passenger screening equipment will business people and individuals. The method provide 39 new X-ray machines, 69 walk- to address this is that the ATO will write to through metal detectors and explosive trace everyone affected or their tax agents to let detection equipment. them know what happened, what it means Today there was the handing over of six for them and how they will receive their Customs dogs, the first of 30, to the United compensation. The ATO will provide special States government. These dogs will also be support to tax agents, and tax agents with used in antiterrorist measures in the United large numbers of clients will be personally States. The breeding program we have in contacted for help and assistance. So it is Customs in Australia is world-class and one pretty small beer. which I believe is evidence of our further Senator CONROY—Madam President, I commitment to combating any further threat ask a supplementary question. I did actually of terrorism in this country. ask how many companies were affected, but Taxation: Pay-As-You-Go Instalments is the minister also able to provide costing on the amount of money that small to medium Senator CONROY (2.55 p.m.)—My sized business will have to spend under- question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister standing the new consolidations regime for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. Can the when industry groups have said that most of minister provide costings of exactly how these businesses will not take up the option many small and medium sized business tax- to consolidate? If not, why has this govern- payers were overcharged by the ATO in their ment not learnt anything from its past mis- recent bungle with pay-as-you-go instal- takes about assuming that tax compliance is ments? Can the minister also provide costing a no-cost task for small and medium sized on how much of taxpayers’ money will be Australian businesses— spent on correcting this blunder? How is it that this kind of costly mistake could have Senator Watson interjecting— occurred on the new minister’s watch? Senator CONROY—when the govern- Senator Hill—This sounds more like a ment wants to implement changes to make question on notice. things easier for the big end of town? Senator CONROY—It is a very impor- Senator Watson—Does that come within tant issue. the realm of a supplementary question or an entirely new question? Perhaps he should Senator COONAN—Thank you, Senator Conroy, for this question. I am advised that it 188 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 make it clear whether he was referring to understand the importance to small business taxpayers or companies. of the consolidations regime that I released a Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I few days ago. Far from being only for big am taking a point of order. My point of order business, the consolidations regime will also is that Senator Watson did not; he just stood assist small business because the grouping up and said ‘I ask a question’ and then rules will be abolished and any small busi- launched into some diatribe about a very nesses that are wholly owned businesses, good supplementary question of Senator wholly owned corporations, will benefit Conroy’s. But it is not competent for Senator from the consolidations regime. Business Watson to be given the call under those cir- will benefit from tax savings in the order of cumstances. It is competent for him to take a $1 billion over the next three years. (Time point of order; he did not do that and he expired) should not have been recognised. Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask The PRESIDENT—I would need to that further questions be placed on the Notice check the transcript. There was too much Paper. noise in the vicinity for me to be certain what QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: Senator Watson said initially. If he were TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS seeking to ask a question, it would be out of Defence Signals Directorate order. If he were seeking to raise a point of order, that would be a different matter. Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- Senator Watson—If there is any doubt ate) (3.02 p.m.)—I move: about what I said, I first raised a point of That the Senate take note of the answers given order. The point of order was that the sup- by the Minister for Defence (Senator Hill) to plementary was a new question, and it questions without notice asked today relating to needed a clarification as to whether he was the interception of communications by the De- referring to a company or to a taxpayer. fence Signals Directorate and the MV Tampa. The PRESIDENT—Firstly, I would need The statement that was issued by Senator to know whether Senator Coonan heard the Hill last night on the involvement of the De- supplementary question. It was hard to hear fence Signals Directorate in eavesdropping at the time. If there was anything within it on the Tampa has raised many more ques- that she wanted to comment on, I would al- tions than it answered. As a result of Senate low her to do so. question time today, a number of very sig- Senator COONAN—Thank you, Madam nificant issues also now remain unanswered. President. Through you, Madam President, I What we asked Senator Hill in question time must say, Senator Conroy, you seem to be today was whether the then Minister for De- using up— fence, Mr Reith, or the government issued The PRESIDENT—Senator, you should any request to DSD in relation to its inter- address your answer to the chair, not to the ception of communications to and from the chamber. MV Tampa. On two occasions, direct ques- tions from Senator Evans were not answered; Opposition senators interjecting— Senator Hill was not willing to indicate what The PRESIDENT—Senators on my left the situation was. And when asked, on two are behaving in an unruly fashion, which is occasions, to give the Senate an assurance inconsistent with the standing orders. that DSD neither collected nor reported on Senator COONAN—Through you, communications involving Australian or- Madam President, I must say that Senator ganisations or citizens, as opposed to com- Conroy appears to be using up all his ques- munications originating from those organi- tions awfully quickly because he seems to sations or citizens, again Senator Hill was have got onto a completely different point. not willing to provide that assurance to this His question shows that he does not under- chamber today. stand compliance, and he certainly does not Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 189

So what we have is a situation where ough investigation. The carefully worded Senator Hill’s statement of last night, com- excuses—(Time expired) pounded by his lack of information and fail- Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) ure to answer questions today, reinforces (3.07 p.m.)—It has certainly has been a very what today’s Australian editorial has prop- long and hard three or four months for the erly described as the ‘culture of secrecy’ opposition. Having failed to get over their which is flourishing under the Howard gov- pathetic effort at the last federal election, and ernment. Senator Hill has deliberately set out desperately trying to find a reason to build to avoid the central question in relation to up another head of steam, we hear Senator this issue: whether intelligence organisations Faulkner launching into a tirade against intercepted communications between the Senator Hill. Senator Hill has appropriately Tampa and Australian organisations or citi- answered the questions that needed to be zens and whether any intelligence gained answered for the Australian public. He has from those intercepts was provided to the very appropriately and very quickly an- government and used by the government for swered those questions about issues that political purposes. That is the crucial ques- have been aired publicly in the media and in tion, and that has not been answered by the newspapers. Senator Hill in question time today. Senator Hill has reassured the Australian We do not know whether communications people. Senator Faulkner and Senator Evans between the MUA—who are Australian citi- would never be reassured by any answers in zens, members of our community—and the this place, because they would be desperately ITF were collected. A lot of answers are re- trying to find some issue on which to rebuild quired on these issues, and we have a situa- some sort of credibility for an Australian tion where the Leader of the Government in Labor Party that has been completely wal- the Senate, the Minister for Defence in this loped in an election once again. country, is covering up on the political abuse of Australia’s intelligence services. No oppo- Senator Faulkner and Senator Evans know sition can accept that, no parliament can ac- that there is a longstanding tradition that the cept that, and I do not believe it will be ac- government does not comment on security cepted by the Australian people. and intelligence matters. But because this issue has been raised in the media, because We believe that due process should be of the seriousness of the allegations, and be- brought to bear on this incident and that the cause the allegations have the potential to veil of secrecy must be lifted. We are pleased undermine public confidence, Senator Hill that the Inspector-General of Intelligence and has quickly sought to reassure the Australian Security has decided that he will report more people and the members of the opposition of fully on this matter. He appears to have done the situation as it stands. That is why Senator it of his own accord—that is what the min- Hill has chosen to inform the Australian ister has told us in question time today—as a people of exactly what is happening: because result of public and parliamentary pressure. of public comment and media speculation. We are pleased that that has occurred. In re- lation to that report, a full report should be The Defence Signals Directorate have ad- provided by the Inspector-General to the vised Senator Hill, as Minister for Defence, parliamentary joint committee on ASIO, that they are confident that there has been ASIS and DSD, going to operational matters. one exception to strict compliance with the And as much as possible, certainly all the rules. What more could the opposition expect conclusions of the Inspector General’s report from the Minister for Defence, on a matter and whatever other details can be revealed which is not normally commented on pub- publicly without prejudice to national secu- licly, than for the minister to inform them rity, must be tabled in this parliament and and the Australian people that the DSD have made public for the benefit of all Austra- advised the minister that they are totally con- lians. This is a matter which requires thor- fident that there has been, with one excep- tion, strict compliance with the rules. An inadvertent error was brought to the attention 190 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 of the DSD by the Inspector-General of In- time and the minister’s responses have been telligence and Security, who found it during quite informative—a bit like his press release his regular check of the operations. The yesterday, which was as important for what it matter was brought to the attention of the did not say as for what it did say. A careful Minister for Defence, and the minister has reading of the Minister for Defence’s press replied quite adequately to the issue that has release yesterday raises a whole range of been raised publicly in the media and again questions. here today by the opposition. The minister is very careful in his choice Furthermore, the DSD have also advised of words and avoids the three key issues—as Senator Hill that neither communications to I would expect Senator Hill to be careful, not the Maritime Union of Australia nor com- only because of the portfolio but because of munications to the International Transport his vast experience in these issues. But one Federation were targeted. The minister has of the things that is most clear is that the given these assurances, and the DSD did not Minister for Defence’s press release does not provide any report to the government on deal with three of the key issues. There is no communications from the MUA or the ITF, mention of what directives or requests were nor did it provide any transcripts of com- made by the government to DSD in relation ments that were made by the MUA or the to the MV Tampa, there is no mention of ITF. what use was made of the information gath- Can I once more reassure the people here ered by DSD in terms of the accusations be- in this chamber that Senator Hill has only ing made in the political response of the departed from the longstanding tradition of government, and there is no mention of not commenting on intelligence matters in whether or not DSD has been used to spy on order to reassure the Australian people and Australian citizens. this Senate that there was only one breach, There is some reference to the MUA and and he has done it because of the potential the ITF—a very carefully chosen reference for public confidence to be undermined. We which does not cover all communications have all seen what has been written in the involving those organisations—but the key media over the past couple of days and the issues are not the MUA or the ITF. The key public speculation that is taking place be- issues are whether or not DSD has been used cause the issue was raised in the media. for political purposes; whether or not Aus- Senator Hill has sought to defuse that issue tralian citizens have been spied on by one of and the potential undermining of public con- their own defence organisations; and what fidence by issuing the advice that he has re- the information that DSD may have gath- ceived from DSD that there has been strict ered, either within their charter or outside compliance with the rules. There has been their charter, has been used for and who that only one exception, and that exception was information has been distributed to. Those an inadvertent error which was brought to are the key issues. They are not in the Min- the attention of the DSD by the Inspector- ister for Defence’s defence of the govern- General of Intelligence and Security during a ment’s position as released yesterday, and regular check. Senator Evans quite rightly they were not referred to today by the min- raised the issue, but it is wrong to suggest ister. that the question was not answered when Today the minister was quite helpful in Senator Hill has provided all the information providing information about the Inspector- that it is proper to divulge. Senator Evans General’s inquiry. But that is an inquiry that would be well aware, in his new role, that he is determined to take on his own initia- intelligence and security matters have to be tive—a much broader inquiry, it seems, than handled very carefully, and the minister has that which was requested by the minister, done that in his role as Minister for Defence. and I am pleased to hear that. I want to have (Time expired) a look at those terms of reference that he set Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Aus- himself. Clearly that would be a useful thing. tralia) (3.12 p.m.)—I think today’s question Labor has argued from the start that the in- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 191 spector-general’s role is the key role and we approval is required for all such collection and want him to have a proper investigation into reporting. these concerns. The question is: was specific approval The minister was far less fulsome when he given? What political directives were given was asked the key political questions about to DSD to allow them to collect information what directives former minister Peter Reith on Australian citizens? In his statement, the gave to DSD and what directions were given Minister for Defence has not denied that in- concerning gathering information on Austra- formation was collected on Australian citi- lian citizens, which is largely prohibited un- zens—he has not denied it at all. He has been der the legislation but which is allowed in careful in his choice of words. (Time expired) certain very specific instances. On those Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New questions the minister was silent. In fact, he South Wales) (3.17 p.m.)—The Defence Sig- went on a great deal with border protection nals Directorate, DSD, has to operate within rhetoric et cetera—dodging the question. For the law. It operates under laws drawn up in anyone who did not see it, I urge them to 1994, when the Australian Labor Party were have a look at the tape. It was classic—‘I in government, and since updated. The Di- don’t want to deal with this. I don’t want to rector of DSD has confirmed that, with one answer the question, so I will talk about exception, he is confident that there has been some broader public issue and accuse the strict compliance with the rules in the mat- Labor Party of treasonous behaviour and ters related to this border protection occur- lack of loyalty to the defence of Australia rence. Further, the Inspector-General of In- and I’ll dodge the issue.’ He did not deal telligence and Security, who is charged with with the issues that I put to him very directly, overseeing the DSD, will conduct a further which were: what was the role of Peter inquiry to look at this inadvertent error. The Reith, the then Minister for Defence; what law has been adhered to at all times, with directives did he give; what directives did the this one inadvertent breach. The DSD has government give to DSD in relation to col- been properly used, and all the intelligence lecting information concerning the Tampa services have been used appropriately in this and in relation to Australian citizens; and occurrence of border protection. what did they do with that information? Every year thousands of DSD intercepts None of those questions has been com- are made, and clearly you might find some mented on and we have no better information intercepts which might be inadvertent. I un- about those issues. derstand that, in question time today, the I think it is important that we concentrate Prime Minister offered the Leader of the Op- on the fact that the DSD is required to get position the opportunity to be briefed confi- specific approval from the minister to do any dentially on the inadvertent breaches of the monitoring of telecommunications involving thousands of intercepts over the years. The Australian citizens. There are protections for government did not need to be told by DSD Australian citizens, and those protections can what was in the nation’s interest in connec- only be overcome with the specific approval tion with this issue and there was no target- of the minister. In a letter dated 16 March ing of the unions. In his statement yesterday, 1999 to Channel 9’s Sunday program, the Senator Hill said: then Director of the DSD, Martin Brady, The Director has confirmed that neither the com- made that very clear. He said, when talking munications of the Maritime Union of Australia about the rules that govern their operations in (MUA) nor of the International Transport Fed- relation to Australian persons: eration (ITF) was targeted by the DSD. The Rules do provide mechanisms to permit DSD More specifically, the Director has advised that to monitor and report foreign communications DSD did not provide any reporting to the Gov- involving Australians in some special carefully- ernment on communications from the MUA or defined circumstances such as the commission of the ITF. a serious criminal offence; a threat to the life or If the ALP are preoccupied with these inad- safety of an Australian; or where an Australian is vertent breaches, they should go back to the acting as the agent of a foreign power. Specific 192 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 time when they were in government. We use issue, and there have been undertakings that the intelligence services as any responsible the law has been adhered to at all times. government might in Australia’s interests, While that is refreshing indeed, there is no and we certainly did in this incident of bor- guarantee that that is the case because, on the der protection. admission of the Minister for Defence today, There is a longstanding tradition that gov- the matter has been referred to the Inspector- ernments do not comment on intelligence General of Intelligence and Security, who is matters but, in a beat-up like this, we have to conducting an inquiry. While there is an ad- make it clear that DSD’s collection and re- mission that there was one breach at this porting activities are conducted in accor- stage, one does not know the full extent of dance with Australian law and a set of long- what the Inspector-General’s inquiries will established rules to protect the privacy of reveal. Australians. As I said, these rules go back to No-one is asking that people start com- a time when there was a Labor government. menting on intelligence matters, but this DSD’s performance in relation to these rules raises the issue as to whether or not DSD is subject to the scrutiny of the Inspector- was receiving information which could be General of Intelligence and Security, who classified and properly labelled as intelli- provides an annual report to parliament and, gence issues or whether they were issues in this case, is making a special report at the relating to the privacy of citizens or organi- request of Minister Hill. The DSD have ad- sations in this country. That is the issue that vised the Minister for Defence that they are needs to be cleared up. As has been con- confident that, with one exception, there has ceded here today, what really is at stake is, been strict compliance with the rules. As I firstly, the integrity of the then minister and said, that exception was an inadvertent error, whether there was any impropriety on his and inadvertent errors have a long tradition part in seeking to use the resources of DSD in situations where you are making thou- in a way in which those resources are not sands of intercepts a year. The DSD have meant to be used—that is, against citizens of advised the minister that neither the commu- this country—or, secondly, whether there nications of the Maritime Union of Australia was any impropriety on the part of DSD in nor the communications of the International abiding by its own charter. They are the key Transport Federation were targeted. issues. This government has increased the ac- If DSD were gathering information—ob- countability of Australia’s foreign intelli- viously, there would be information which is gence collection agencies by enacting last not just intelligence on other countries—that year, before we went to the election, the In- was not about a serious criminal offence telligence Services Act. The act spells out committed by an Australian, a threat to the the functions and responsibilities of DSD life and safety of Australian citizens or an and ASIS and establishes a parliamentary Australian citizen acting for a foreign power, joint committee to oversee the agencies’ ex- then clearly it is not an intelligence matter. If penditure and administration. The legislation in turn they have passed that on to the min- strikes the right balance between transpar- ister or the government of the day, then their ency and the essential need for security. The powers have been abused. This has not yet government makes no apologies for using its been put to the test because, as the minister intelligence capability to protect our borders. admitted, we have not yet seen the outcome It does so in a way that does not undermine of the inquiry that has been requested from the privacy of Australians and in accordance the Inspector-General. There is a fundamen- with the law. The Labor Party are intent on tal issue here as to whether we are dealing diminishing that capacity and, in so doing, with intelligence matters or non-intelligence weakening Australia’s security. issues. In this day and age, people are very Senator HOGG (Queensland) (3.22 concerned about the eavesdropping that takes p.m.)—I have listened to Senator Sandy place. One should not, under any circum- Macdonald and Senator Ferguson on this stances, believe that it is the old, crude phone Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 193 tapping, because I do not think that has been began, he answered, in effect, ‘We neither implied or even referred to so far in this de- confirm nor deny.’ bate. I can understand any government or per- In his statement, the minister said—and it son in public office quarantining informa- has been said here today—that the Director tion. I understand the difference between of the Defence Signals Directorate has con- being open and haemorrhaging. What I do firmed that neither the communications of not understand and where the minister has the Maritime Union of Australia nor of the left people feeling dissatisfied in his answer International Transport Federation were tar- is: on what basis and for what possible rea- geted by the DSD. The fact that they were son was the government or one of its agen- not targeted does not mean that there was not cies listening to a Norwegian ship carrying eavesdropping of some form on either of some 438 supposed refugees? I understand those organisations or on other citizens of that the government is couching listening Australia. It is not simply the fact that it is in—whatever term you like, phone tapping, either the Maritime Union of Australia or the intelligence surveillance or monitoring of International Transport Federation that is the this situation—as being due to a potential important issue here; it is whether or not they threat to national security. I do not see from were targeted. It could well be that there anything that I have heard or read that the might not have been targeting. There may question of a relatively small bunch of refu- well have been interception of private citi- gees on a Norwegian ship can be regarded in zens’ discussions and those discussions have any way as a threat to national security. inadvertently been reported. It is very important to remember that the The statement of the minister does not critical political environment, the white-hot dispel that and does not give the confidence environment of terrorism, as we understand that should necessarily be there in this issue. it now, did not begin until September 11. We concede that we are not seeking infor- That was some days after the Tampa sailed mation on genuine intelligence issues, but into our waters and onto the front pages of the minister in no way today has denied or our newspapers. I have some difficulty ac- dispelled as a myth the idea that that infor- cepting that there can be any connection mation could not have been gathered on pri- between the government’s response to the vate citizens—whether it be deliberately, Tampa and, in more recent days, the way in inadvertently or completely in error—and which some people have phrased the argu- have been used in a political way against ments to defend the government’s position citizens of this nation. That, of course, is towards it and those refugees as somehow completely abhorrent to the nature of people being connected to terrorism. The two issues in this country. We are a democratic, free that we are confronting here today—or per- country and people rely on the good faith of haps not—are: did the tapping take place, government and organisations such as the and we have no clear answer on that; and, if DSD to maintain that freedom and the faith so, for what purpose? we have in it. (Time expired) But I think another thing that has been Senator GREIG (Western Australia) missed thus far in this debate is a point (3.27 p.m.)—I join in taking note of answers which relates to whistleblowing. Senator given to what is really a variety of questions Ludwig raised it when he asked his question today in relation to DSD and the Tampa about the proposed espionage bill. The gov- phone tapping incident, if you want to call it ernment has acknowledged that that bill will that. I am disturbed—as I think are many take a little longer to be introduced than was Australians—not so much by what the min- first planned, partly because of what the ister is saying but by what he is not saying. I minister says is misinformation about the think his answers today leave many people bill. Madam Deputy President, I am sure you with a sense of discomfort. When I asked the would be conscious that there was consider- minister precisely when the phone tapping able uproar about the prospect of this bill imposing penalties on people who either re- 194 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 lease or receive information that the gov- Leave granted. ernment regards as being of national interest Senator FAULKNER—I would like to or as a matter of national security. I would refer to an article that appeared in the Cou- argue that, if that bill were to pass in its cur- rier-Mail newspaper on Tuesday of this rent form, whoever leaked that information week, entitled, ‘Besieged Somlyay claims to the press and also the press themselves bribe bid.’ I would like to quote four para- who reported it would be subject to the very graphs of that article and then set the record harsh penalties in that bill. So we have a straight. Part of that article says this: classic example of considerable public inter- Mr Somlyay was a member of the Joint est in this topic both here in the parliament Standing Committee on Electoral Matters which and outside in the community—that is, the in 2000-2001 held public hearings into electoral topic of whether or not phone tapping took fraud. place on the Tampa—and yet I understand A transcript of the committee’s Townsville that this was initiated from the fourth estate. hearing on January 29 last year, confirms that It came from the press and not from the op- Labor committee member John Faulkner had position or the crossbenches, as is sometimes obliquely referred to Mr Somlyay’s enrolment the case. I believe this is a classic example of issue. why the bill to which Senator Ludwig re- Mr Somlyay said he had a private conversation ferred today is flawed. about his family enrolments with Senator Faulk- Senator Sandy Macdonald said that this ner during a break in the hearing. matter was purely a beat-up. I think the Aus- He said Senator Faulkner had accepted his ver- tralian community is generally sophisticated sion of events and said he would not pursue the enough to sense the difference between a issue because it had been leaked to him (Faulk- beat-up and a cover-up, and I think the ques- ner) from Liberal Party sources. tion that the minister has not yet satisfacto- In an interview with the Courier-Mail on Sun- rily answered is which it is in this instance. day Senator Faulkner attacked Mr Somlyay’s The minister’s announcement that a full re- enrolments but later withdrew his comments port will be made in which the director will when he recalled this private conversation. involve himself is a good step, and I applaud That is what the article in the newspaper that. But what is missing from any full report said, but this is the truth: all comments in the is something perhaps more important: it is Courier-Mail newspaper on that and pre- what my leader, Senator Stott Despoja, ad- ceding days about matters relating to Mr vocated when she argued that there ought to Somlyay’s enrolment were made by a be an inquiry not just into the Tampa incident spokesman of mine and not in a direct inter- per se but into whether legislation, regula- view with me. No-one could jump to that tions and guidelines that relate to the DSD’s conclusion from reading this article. At first activities are adequate to guard against, request to respond to a Sunday Mail article firstly, improper actions by the DSD and, on 10 February, journalist Brendan O’Malley secondly, the improper use of the DSD by was told by my spokesman that neither I nor the government. That information should the spokesman had seen the article and that also be fully reported to the Senate as part of the spokesman could only speak generally. a more holistic approach and not simply con- Mr O’Malley was formally provided with the fined to research into the current issue. (Time following lines which I would like to read expired) into the Hansard for the record: Question agreed to. Mr Somlyay is a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters. He has a good PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS knowledge of the electoral laws. Given the issues Senator FAULKNER (New South raised by the Sunday Mail, Mr Somlyay should Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- clarify details, including who witnessed the en- ate) (3.32 p.m.)—I seek leave to make a per- rolment forms for his family. These current alle- sonal explanation as I claim to have been gations have been raised for internal Liberal po- misrepresented. litical purposes. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 195

Those are the quotes that were given on my have no problem with this—to say that to a behalf by my spokesman to the Courier- journalist, and it is an accurate statement on Mail. It then transpired that Mr Somlyay, as his part, and to make that public, I saw fit to he is absolutely entitled to, had some contact change the comment I made otherwise my with the journalist, and I think he indicated, previous comment may have appeared disin- as he is absolutely entitled to do, that I had genuous or in some way covering up. I discussed this matter with him at a Joint wanted to be very frank with all the people Standing Committee on Electoral Matters concerned, and I was. All my statements meeting. All of that did occur. As a result of were absolutely frank, absolutely accurate, that, because Mr Somlyay had indicated to a absolutely proper. journalist that I had had a private discussion It is true that I had a private discussion with him—I had, and I have no problem with with Mr Somlyay. It is true that I did accept Mr Somlyay saying that; it is true, I had had his explanation at face value. The rest of the a private conversation with him—I asked my issue is for others and not for me. I stress: I spokesman to change my comment. The did not do an interview with the Courier thing was this: I was not going to say that I Mail on Sunday. I did not attack Mr Som- had had a conversation with Mr Somlyay. I lyay’s enrolments though my spokesman did never talk about the content of private dis- provide the comments in precisely the terms cussions I have with anyone, be they in the I have outlined to the Senate. One paragraph Labor Party, be they in the Liberal party or in the article states: be they Callithumpian, and I do not even say In interview with the Courier Mail on Sunday that I have had those discussions. That is the Senator Faulkner attacked Mr Somlyay’s enrol- way it works, and everyone in this cham- ments but later withdrew his comments when he ber—on both sides—knows that I do not recalled this private conversation. make public the content of private discus- That reflects poorly on me, in the circum- sions. stances, when I have had no direct contact After Mr Somlyay had indicated that I had with these journalists and when the truth of had a private conversation with him— the matter is as I have outlined to the Senate. something he is entitled to do and with On these occasions—and I do not do it of- which I have no problem—I did ask my ten—I think it is best to correct the public spokesman to change my comment, because record at the earliest available opportunity. it had become public that there was a private NEW SOUTH WALES: BUSHFIRES conversation. I asked my spokesman to change my comment to this—this is my for- Senator HILL (South Australia—Minis- mal comment: ter for Defence) (3.39 p.m.)—I seek leave to move a motion in relation to the recent bush- Mr Somlyay raised the matter in a private discus- sion during a committee hearing, and I accepted fires in New South Wales. I understand the his explanation at face value. wording has been agreed by all political par- ties in this place and by all independent That was my comment. Another journalist, senators. If so, it is one of those rare occa- Chris Griffith who wrote the article, ‘Be- sions when the whole of the Senate is of one sieged Somlyay claims bribe bid,’ rang on mind. Monday and asked for a comment regarding this matter. He was provided with the same The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Is leave comment as the previous journalist had been granted? on Sunday: Senator Harris—I am not refusing leave, Mr Somlyay raised the matter in a private discus- but I point out that I have not seen the docu- sion during a committee hearing, and I accepted ment. his explanation at face value. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—If you The truth of this matter is: I did have a pri- have not refused leave, leave is granted. vate discussion with Mr Somlyay. I would Senator HILL—The note I have copies it not normally say that in the parliament but to Senator Harris. I will take a chance and because Mr Somlyay has seen fit—again I say that Senator Harris supports this as well. 196 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Certainly all other senators support this. I healthy practice. A carcass-only export meat trade move: is preferable and would create abattoir employ- ment in Australia. The Coalition government, the That the Senate— Australian Live Exporters’ Council, Livecorp, the (a) extends its sympathies to those Sheepmeat Council of Australia and Meat and Australians who suffered personal losses Livestock Australia want to supply Saudi Arabia during the Christmas 2001 bushfires that alone with up to one million sheep a year. raged across New South Wales; Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose the (b) acknowledges the tireless commitment resumption of the live animal export market. The of the thousands of individuals from Government will be monitoring six trial ship- rural and metropolitan fire brigades, ments to determine whether the live sheep trade emergency and rescue services, could be opened up. The first trial shipments of ambulance services, the defence force, 60,000 live sheep left Australia for Saudi Arabia police, welfare groups, government in January 2000. agencies, councils and businesses from across the country who were involved in by Senator Bartlett (from 22 citizens). fighting these fires; Telstra: Privatisation (c) expresses its enduring gratitude and To the honourable the President and the members admiration to these Australians, many of of the Senate in Parliament assembled: whom were volunteers, for their efforts The petition of the undersigned shows our con- and sacrifices and, in particular, cern that: acknowledges the bravery of those who risked their lives in fighting the fires; (1) the Howard-Anderson Government plans to and fully privatise the Australian people's 50.1 percent share of Telstra as stated in the Gov- (d) recognises that the way that the ernment's own 2001 Budget papers; community heroically pulled together in a time of crisis truly demonstrates the (2) a fully privatised Telstra will focus on profits strength of the Australian spirit. not people; and Question agreed to. (3) services will suffer under a fully privatised Telstra, particularly in outer metropolitan, ru- PETITIONS ral and regional Australia. The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged Your petitioners request that the Senate oppose for presentation as follows: the Howard-Anderson Government's plans to Taxation: Goods and Services fully privatise Telstra. To the Honourable the President and Members of by Senator Mark Bishop (from 15 citi- the Senate in Parliament assembled: zens). The petition of residents of the nation of Australia Immigration: Refugees and Asylum draws to the attention of the Senate that: Seekers 1. Majority of electors in the 1998 federal elec- To the honourable the President and members of tion were not in favour of the GST the Senate assembled in Federal Parliament: 2. Alternative taxation regimes were not prop- The petition of the undersigned draws the atten- erly considered. tion of the Senate to our concerns about Austra- Your petitioners humbly ask the Senate to repeal lia's treatment of refugees and asylum seekers. the GST legislation and to instigate an inquiry to We are concerned about human rights violations thoroughly investigate alternative taxation re- in Australian detention centres, as identified by gimes. the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Com- mission (HREOC), the US Department of State by Senator Reid (from 23 citizens). and the International Secretariat of Amnesty In- Exports: Trade in Live Animals ternational. The HREOC report found that human To the Honourable President and Members of the rights are being violated due to the conditions of Senate in Parliament assembled detention; restricted access to services; the prac- tice and effects of long-term detention and re- The Petition of the undersigned oppose the re- stricted access to judicial review. sumption of the live animal export market. We believe carrying live animals on long journeys Your petitioners therefore request the Senate to: prior to slaughter is a cruel, unnecessary and un- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 197

Comply with international human rights agree- And we, as in duty bound will every pray. ments and cease the practice of detaining refugee by Senator Kemp (from 56 citizens). children; Republic: Plebiscite Offer an independent review of the decision to detain an asylum seeker, in accordance with in- To the Honourable the President and the Members ternational law; of the Senate in Parliament assembled: Implement an alternative detention model that This petition of certain citizens of Australia draws offers open detention and community release for to the attention of the Senate the growing desire those asylum claimants whose identity and cir- for Australia to become a republic. cumstances have been established; Your petitioners therefore request that the Senate Ensure that the assessment of asylum-seekers conduct a plebiscite asking the Australian people identity and circumstances is completed within 90 if Australia should become a republic with an days of their detention. Australian citizen as Head of State in place of the Queen. by Senator Brown (from 1,491 citizens). by Senator McKiernan (from 16 citi- Australian National Flag zens). To the Honourable the President and the Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled Petitions received. The Petition of the undersigned respectfully NOTICES showeth that: Presentation 1. We the undersigned wish to signify our Senator Conroy to move on the next day strong opposition to any change in the design of sitting: or colour of the Australian national flag. That the Senate— 2. We believe that the current flag has served Australia well and will continue to do so in (a) expresses its concern about the the future and represents a true manifestation significant increase in public liability of the nation’s history. insurance premiums and the effect it is having on the viability of many small And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever businesses and community and sporting pray. organisations; by Senator Kemp (from 23 citizens). (b) condemns the Government for its Immigration: Asylum Seekers inaction; and To the Honourable the President and the Members (c) urges the Minister to propose a solution of the Senate in Parliament assembled: to this pressing issue, as quickly as possible, not just look at the problem. Whereas the 1998 Synod of the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne carried without dissent the follow- Senator Ian Campbell to move on the ing Motion: next day of sitting: That this Synod regrets the Government’s adop- That, upon their introduction in the House of tion of procedures for certain people seeking po- Representatives, the provisions of the Proceeds of litical asylum in Australia which exclude them Crime Bill 2002 and the provisions of the from all public income support while withholding Proceeds of Crime (Consequential Amendments permission to work, thereby creating a group of and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2002 be referred beggars dependent on the Churches and charities to the Legal and Constitutional Legislation for food and the necessities of life; Committee for report by 14 March 2002. and calls upon the Federal government to review Senator Allison to move on the next day such procedures immediately and remove all of sitting: practices which are manifestly inhumane and in That the Senate— some cases in contravention of our national obli- gations as a signatory of the UN Covenant on (a) notes that: Civil and Political Rights. (i) Victorian school principals are We, therefore, the individual, undersigned at- struggling to fill teaching vacancies tendees and members of St Dunstan’s Anglican for the 2002 school year, Church, Camberwell, Victoria 3124, petition the (ii) Victoria has a shortage of Senate in support of the abovementioned motion. mathematics, science, information technology, languages other than 198 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

English, accounting and woodwork (3) That the committee may proceed to the teachers, and dispatch of business notwithstanding that (iii) schools in regional areas and country not all members have been duly towns experience the greatest nominated and appointed and difficulty filling teacher vacancies; notwithstanding any vacancy. and (4) That: (b) urges the Government to do more to (a) the chair of the committee be elected increase the number of available teachers by and from the members of the by improving conditions and incentives committee; for teachers, particularly in rural areas, (b) in the absence of agreement on the and by increasing university places and selection of a chair, duly notified to funding for teacher education. the President, the allocation of the Senator Harris to move on the next day chair be determined by the Senate; of sitting: (c) the deputy chair of the committee be (1) That a select committee, to be known as elected by and from the members of the Select Committee on the Lindeberg the committee immediately after the Grievance, be appointed to inquire into election of the chair; and report, by 30 June 2002, on the (d) the deputy chair act as chair when following matters: there is no chair or the chair is not (a) whether any false or misleading present at a meeting; and evidence was given to the Select (e) in the event of the votes on any Committee on Public Interest question before the committee being Whistleblowing, the Select equally divided, the chair, or deputy Committee on Unresolved chair when acting as chair, have a Whistleblower Cases or the casting vote. Committee of Privileges in respect of (5) That the quorum of the committee be a its 63rd and 71st reports; majority of the members of the (b) whether any contempt was committed committee. in that regard, having regard to (6) That the committee and any previous inquiries by Senate subcommittee have power to send for committees relating to the shredding and examine persons and documents, to of the Heiner documents, the fresh move from place to place, to sit in public material that has subsequently been or in private, notwithstanding any revealed by the Dutney prorogation of the Parliament or Memorandum, and Exhibits 20 and dissolution of the House of 31 tabled at the Forde Commission of Representatives, and have leave to report Inquiry into the Abuse of Children in from time to time its proceedings and the Queensland Institutions, and any evidence taken, and such interim other relevant evidence; and recommendations as it may deem fit. (c) whether this matter should be taken (7) That the committee have power to into account in framing the proposed appoint subcommittees consisting of 3 or legislation on whistleblower more of its members and to refer to any protection recommended by the such subcommittee any of the matters Select Committee on Public Interest which the committee is empowered to Whistleblowing. consider, and that the quorum of the (2) That the committee consist of 7 senators, subcommittee be a majority of the 2 nominated by the Leader of the members appointed to the subcommittee. Government in the Senate, 2 nominated (8) That the committee be provided with all by the Leader of the Opposition in the necessary staff, facilities and resources Senate, 1 nominated by the Leader of the and be empowered to appoint Australian Democrats, 1 nominated by investigative staff and persons, including the One Nation Party and 1 nominated senior counsel, with specialist by the Australian Greens or Senator knowledge for the purposes of the Harradine. committee, with the approval of the President. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 199

(9) That the committee have access to, and BUSINESS have power to make use of, the evidence Rearrangement and records of the Select Committee on Public Interest Whistleblowing, the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Select Committee on Unresolved Australia—Manager of Government Busi- Whistleblower Cases and the Committee ness in the Senate) (3.45 p.m.)—by leave—I of Privileges in respect of its 63rd and move: 71st reports. (1) That consideration of government (10) That the committee be empowered to documents not be proceeded with today. print from day to day such documents and evidence as may be ordered by it, (2) That valedictory statements relating to and a daily Hansard be published of such Senators Gibson and Newman may be proceedings as take place in public. made from 5 pm to 7.20 pm today Senator Brown to move on the next day (3) That in making valedictory statements, a of sitting: senator shall not speak for more than That the Senate— 10 minutes. (a) notes the death in custody of Aboriginal Question agreed to. Australian Douglas Bruce Scott in NOTICES Darwin on 5 July 1985; Postponement (b) expresses its regret and condolences to his widow, Mrs Letty Scott, and their Items of business were postponed as fol- family; lows: (c) notes that Mrs Scott considers inquiries Business of the Senate notice of motion no. into her husband’s death to have been 1 standing in the name of Senator Bartlett flawed and inadequate, and that this for today, relating to the reference of mat- matter is currently the subject of ters to the Rural and Regional Affairs and litigation; and Transport References Committee, post- (d) calls on the Government to work with poned till 14 February 2002. Mrs Scott to open a fresh investigation General business notice of motion no. 1 into Mr Scott’s death, through which all standing in the name of the Leader of the the evidence can be considered. Australian Democrats (Senator Stott The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I draw the Despoja) for today, relating to a request to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and attention of the chamber to the standing or- Security to investigate certain actions in der relating to the handling of notices of mo- relation to the MV Tampa, postponed till tion. 14 February 2002. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.44 General business notice of motion no. 3 p.m.)—If there is an infringement of standing standing in the name of Senator Bourne for orders, I would like— today, relating to the forthcoming presi- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—No, I am dential election in Zimbabwe, postponed just drawing that to your attention. Would till 14 February 2002. you like to proceed, please? General business notice of motion no. 4 standing in the name of Senator Bourne for Senator BROWN—I am within standing today, relating to the Dalai Lama, post- orders and am well aware of them, thank poned till 14 February 2002. you, Deputy President. I give notice that, on General business notice of motion no. 2 12 March, I shall move: standing in the name of Senator Allison for That the following bill be introduced: A Bill today, relating to the establishment of a for an Act to establish a Parliamentary Commis- select committee on superannuation, post- sion of Inquiry into Forestry Tasmania, the Forest poned till 14 February 2002. Practices Board and Private Forests Tasmania, General business notice of motion no. 5 and for related purposes. Parliamentary Commis- standing in the name of Senator Ridgeway sion of Inquiry into Forestry Tasmania Bill 2002. for today, relating to the non-incorporation of Indigenous protocols in the procedures 200 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

for the opening of Parliament, postponed Electoral Amendment (Political till 14 February 2002. Honesty) Bill 2000 General business notice of motion no. 10 Freedom of Information Amendment standing in the name of Senator Murphy (Open Government) Bill 2000 for today, relating to the establishment of a Parliamentary Approval of Treaties select committee on forestry and plantation Bill 1995 [1998] matters, postponed till 11 March 2002. Public Interest Disclosure Bill 2001 LEAVE OF ABSENCE Reconciliation Bill 2001 Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.46 State Elections (One Vote, One Value) p.m.)—I move: Bill 2001. That leave of absence be granted to Senator Question agreed to. Crane for the period 12 February to 14 February 2002, on account of ill health. Eluay, Mr Theys Question agreed to. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.48 Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.46 p.m.)—I move: p.m.)—by leave—I move: That the Senate— That leave of absence be granted to Senator (a) expresses its grave concern of the death Bishop for the period 12 February to 14 February of West Papuan leader, Theys Eluay; and 2002, on account of parliamentary business over- (b) calls on the Australian Government to seas. request that the Indonesian Government Question agreed to. conduct a full and independent inquiry into Mr Eluay’s death. BUSINESS The Senate divided. [3.52 p.m.] Consideration of Legislation (The President—Senator the Hon. Marga- Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) ret Reid) (3.47 p.m.)—I move: Ayes………… 37 (1) That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent this Noes………… 30 resolution having effect. Majority……… 7 (2) That the following bills be restored to AYES the Notice Paper and that consideration of each of the bills be resumed at the Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. stage reached in the last session of the Bolkus, N. Bourne, V.W. Parliament: Brown, B.J. Buckland, G. ABC Amendment (Online and Campbell, G. Carr, K.J. Multichannelling Services) Bill 2001 Cherry, J.C. Collins, J.M.A. Air Navigation Amendment Cook, P.F.S. Cooney, B.C. (Extension of Curfew and Limitation Crossin, P.M. Crowley, R.A. of Aircraft Movements) Bill 1995 Denman, K.J. Faulkner, J.P. [1998] Forshaw, M.G. Gibbs, B. Greig, B. Harris, L. Anti-Genocide Bill 1999 Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. Australian Broadcasting Corporation Lees, M.H. Ludwig, J.W. Amendment Bill 1999 Lundy, K.A. Mackay, S.M. * Charter of Political Honesty Bill 2000 McKiernan, J.P. McLucas, J.E. Constitution Alteration (Appropri- Murphy, S.M. Murray, A.J.M. ations for the Ordinary Annual O’Brien, K.W.K. Ray, R.F. Services of the Government) 2001 Ridgeway, A.D. Schacht, C.C. Constitution Alteration (Electors’ Sherry, N.J. Stott Despoja, N. Initiative, Fixed Term Parliaments West, S.M. and Qualification of Members) 2000 NOES Corporate Code of Conduct Bill 2000 Abetz, E. Alston, R.K.R. Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 201

Calvert, P.H. * Campbell, I.G. The PRESIDENT—Shall we defer it un- Chapman, H.G.P. Eggleston, A. til tomorrow? Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. Senator Faulkner—No, but I am happy Gibson, B.F. Heffernan, W. to defer it until a slightly later hour this day, Herron, J.J. Hill, R.M. if that assists. Can I defer it until the next Kemp, C.R. Knowles, S.C. break in business? Macdonald, I. Macdonald, J.A.L. Mason, B.J. McGauran, J.J.J. The PRESIDENT—Is there leave of the Minchin, N.H. Patterson, K.C. Senate to defer this matter and deal with it at Payne, M.A. Reid, M.E. an agreed time today? Scullion, N.G. Tchen, T. Senator Faulkner—I seek leave to have Tierney, J.W. Troeth, J.M. this matter dealt with at 4.30 p.m. Vanstone, A.E. Watson, J.O.W. Leave granted. PAIRS DOCUMENTS Bishop, T.M. Crane, A.W. Conroy, S.M. Colbeck, R. Response to President’s Report Evans, C.V. Ellison, C.M. Senator HILL (South Australia—Leader * denotes teller of the Government in the Senate) (3.59 Question agreed to. p.m.)—I present the government’s response COMMITTEES to the President’s Report of 28 June 2001 on outstanding government responses to parlia- A Certain Maritime Incident Committee mentary committee ryeports and I seek leave Establishment to incorporate the document in Hansard. Senator FAULKNER (New South Leave granted. Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- The document read as follows— ate) (3.56 p.m.)—I ask that general business notice of motion No. 8, standing in my name, GOVERNMENT RESPONSES TO PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE REP- relating to the establishment of a select ORTS RESPONSE TO THE SCHEDULE committee on a certain maritime incident, be TABLED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE taken as a formal motion. SENATE ON 28 JUNE 2001 The PRESIDENT—Is there any objec- Circulated by the Leader of the Government in tion to this motion being taken as formal? the Senate Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.56 Senator the Hon Robert Hill p.m.)—You will note that I have a contingent 13 February 2002 motion amending this motion: AUSTRALIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE That so much of the standing orders be sus- ORGANISATION (Joint) pended as would prevent Senator Brown moving The Nature, Scope and Appropriateness of a motion to provide that Senator Faulkner’s mo- ASIO’s public reporting activities tion be amended by adding: The response was presented on 5 October 2001 (1) (d) how information from the Defence and tabled on 12 February 2002. Signals Directorate was conveyed to and used by the Government during and COMMUNITY AFFAIRS REFERENCES since the Tampa crisis. Report on Proposals for Changes to the Wel- Senator Faulkner—I am sorry; I was fare System distracted, Senator Brown. But I think I un- The response was tabled on 23 August 2001. derstand what your intention is. Do you Healing our Hospitals: Report on Public Hospital mean to do that without debate? Funding Senator BROWN—Moving the amend- The response was presented on 28 September ment, yes. 2001 and tabled on 12 February 2002. Senator Faulkner—Does the government have a view on this? 202 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

CORPORATIONS AND SECURITIES (Joint FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND Statutory) TRADE REFERENCES Shadow Ledgers and the Provision of Bank Artillery Barracks, Fremantle—Inquiry into Statements to Customers the Disposal of Defence Property—Interim The response was tabled on 23 August 2001. Report Report on Fees on Electronic and Telephone The report was only an Interim Report in the Banking context of the broader inquiry into the disposal of Defence properties. The final report on the dis- The response is being finalised and is expected to posal of Defence properties was tabled on 27 be tabled in the near future. September 2001, and the Government response is Report on Aspects of the Regulation of Pro- currently being prepared. prietary Companies INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES (Select) The report is being considered and a response is Netbet: A Review of On-line Gambling in Aus- expected to be tabled shortly. tralia ECONOMICS REFERENCES The Interactive Gambling (Moratorium) Bill Report on the Operation of the Australian 2000 and the Interactive Gambling Bill 2001 have Taxation Office been debated in the Senate. During the debate the The report is being considered and a response will Government responded to all of the recommen- be provided as soon as possible. dations in the report. The Government will not be providing a separate formal response to these Report on the Provisions of the Fair Prices and Better Access for All (Petroleum) Bill 1999 and reports. the Practice of Multi-site Franchising by Oil In the Public Interest: Monitoring Australia’s Companies Media The response is being finalised and is expected to The Government will consider this report together be tabled shortly. with the common issues raised in certain content recommendations of the Productivity Commis- ENVIRONMENT, COMMUNICATIONS, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND THE sion’s Report on Broadcasting and the Australian Broadcasting Authority’s Final Report on its ARTS REFERENCES Commercial Radio Inquiry. It is anticipated that Report on the Powers of the Commonwealth in the Government will respond to the issues raised Environment Protection and Ecologically- in these reports in the context of its response to Sustainable Development in Australia the ABA’s Commercial Radio Report. The Gov- The response to the report has been considered in ernment is currently considering a range of op- the context of the Environment Protection and tions suggested in the context of the ABA’s Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999. The response Commercial Radio Report. is being finalised and is expected to be tabled Cookie Monsters? Privacy in the Information shortly. Society Inquiry into Gulf St Vincent The response is expected to be tabled in the 2002 The response is being finalised and is expected to Autumn sittings. be tabled shortly. LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL REFER- The Heat is On: Australia’s Greenhouse Fu- ENCES ture Inquiry into the Commonwealth’s Actions in The response was tabled on 23 August 2001. Relation to Ryker (Faulkner) v The Common- FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND wealth and Flint TRADE (Joint) The response is under consideration and is ex- From Phantom To Force—Towards A More pected to be tabled in due course. Efficient and Effective Army Inquiry into Sexuality Discrimination The response is being finalised and is likely to be The Government response to the report is still tabled shortly. under consideration. Conviction with Compassion: A Report into Inquiry into the Australian Legal Aid System Freedom of Religion and Belief (3rd report) The response will be tabled as soon as possible. The response is expected to be tabled early in the 2002 Autumn sittings. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 203

Inquiry into the Human Rights (Mandatory and the Impact of International Trade Ar- Sentencing of Juvenile Offenders) Bill 1999 rangements The Government expects to table its response in The response is being considered and is expected the 2002 Autumn sittings. to be tabled during the 2002 Autumn sittings. Humanity Diminished: The Crime of Geno- Administration of the Civil Aviation Safety cide—Inquiry into the Anti-Genocide Bill 1999 Authority: Matters related to ARCAS Airways The response is under consideration and is ex- The response is expected to be tabled shortly. pected to be tabled in due course. RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND MIGRATION (Joint) TRANSPORT REFERENCES Not the Hilton—Immigration Detention Cen- Report on the Development of the Brisbane tres: Inspection Report Airport Corporation’s Master Plan for the The response to the report will be finalised for Future Construction of a Western Parallel tabling as soon as possible. Runway Review of the Migration Legislation Amend- The response is expected to be tabled as soon as ment Bill (No. 2) 2000 possible. The response was tabled on 9 August 2001. Air Safety and Cabin Air Quality in the BAe146 Aircraft NATIONAL CRIME AUTHORITY (Joint Statutory) The response is expected to be tabled shortly. National Crime Authority Legislation SCRUTINY OF BILLS (Senate Standing) Amendment Bill 2000 [2001] Fourth Report of 2000: Entry and Search Provi- The Government addressed the comments of the sions in Commonwealth Legislation Committee during the debate on the Bill, which The response is expected to be tabled no later was passed by the Senate on 8 August 2001 and than the 2002 Winter sittings. the House of Representatives on 24 September SUPERANNUATION AND FINANCIAL 2001. The National Crime Authority Legislation SERVICES (Senate Select) Amendment Act 2001 commenced on 12 October 2001. Report on the Provisions of the Family Law Legislation Amendment (Superannuation) Bill NATIVE TITLE AND THE ABORIGINAL 2000 AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER LAND FUND (Joint Statutory) The Bill was passed by the House of Representa- tives with amendments on 24 May 2001 and by CERD and the Native Title Amendment Act the Senate on 18 June 2001 and, as a result, the 1998 Family Law Legislation Amendment (Superannu- The response was presented on 8 October 2001 ation) Act 2001 received the Royal Assent on 28 and tabled on 12 February 2002. June 2001. Most of the recommendations of the PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND AUDIT (Joint Senate Standing Committee were implemented by Statutory) amendments moved to the Bill in the House of Representatives, or by the making of the Family Corporate Governance and Accountability Law (Superannuation) Regulations 2001 (SR 201, Arrangements for Commonwealth Govern- No.303) on 6 October 2001 and the Superannua- ment Business Enterprises, December 1999 tion Industry (Supervision) Amendment Regula- (Report No. 372) tions 2001 (No.3) (SR 2001, No 353) on The response is expected to be tabled by the 2002 20 December 2001. Spring sittings. The Opportunities and Constraints for Aus- Contract Management in the Australian Pub- tralia to Become a Centre for the Provision of lic Service (Report No. 379) Global Financial Services The response is expected to be tabled during the The response is being finalised and is expected to 2002 Autumn sittings. be tabled in the near future. RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TREATIES (Joint) TRANSPORT LEGISLATION Treaties Tabled on 18 March 1997 and 13 May An Appropriate Level of Protection? The Im- 1997 (8th report) portation of Salmon Products: A Case Study of The response was tabled on 9 August 2001. the Administration of Australian Quarantine 204 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Agreement with Kasakstan, Treaties Tabled on we see regularly in reports, particularly in 30 September 1997 and the Advertiser, the mouth is shut more and 21 October 1997 (11th report) more frequently. The River Murray is also The response was tabled on 9 August 2001. getting saltier. Dryland salinity caused by UN Convention on the Rights of the Child land clearing and rising water tables is a time (17th report) bomb, and that time bomb is ticking. It is expected that around 30 per cent of the culti- The response is expected to be tabled during the 2002 Autumn sittings. vated land in the basin will be salt affected. Half our woodland birds will disappear. It GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH seems that Adelaide’s water supply is by no Debate resumed. means safe. It has been suggested that 10 per Senator LEES (South Australia (4.00 cent to perhaps 25 per cent of the time Ade- p.m.)—Yesterday, in opening the 40th Par- laide will not have potable water. liament, the Governor-General talked about What is going wrong? Why can’t we, as a the need for ‘immediate action to tackle sa- society, a community, that now well under- linity and water quality problems’. I want to stands what the problems are, get our act address these two issues specifically as they together in such a way that we could have relate to my home state of South Australia. some confidence in the future of this river As you look at some of the information and system? The Commonwealth government is evidence, you see that the very survival of obviously very much involved through a va- communities and regions depends on how riety of programs, but what it is actually do- we manage our water resources and in par- ing, I would argue, is less than admirable on ticular how we can prevent the spread of sa- a number of points. Today, with limited time, linity in all its forms. The vision of South I want to look quickly at the 1995 COAG Australia as a productive, environmentally water reform process which created the wa- friendly and environmentally sustainable ter rights system, set up and basically en- state, a creative state, can be realised only if abled the trading in water. I would argue that it and the Commonwealth look after the most this is seriously flawed in many ways. Not precious resource, and that is water. only did the Commonwealth fail to ensure We have to reduce our reliance on the that the states used that early payment under Murray, reduce the amount of water that we competition policy actually on the river to are taking out of that river system. I would better manage water resources but that cash argue at least 20 per cent more water must be actually disappeared off into state coffers allowed to flow down the river and out to rather than helping to compensate those that sea. The condition of the Murray-Darling needed to look at water management issues. Basin is critical, not just as far as South As you start looking closely at the process, Australia is concerned but as far as the na- the flaws are numerous. The fact that the tion is concerned. I think more and more Commonwealth made $900 million windfall Australians are very well aware of the crisis from the corporatisation of the Snowy but facing the Murray. Waters have been over- only spent $70 million on further irrigation allocated by various state governments. The efficiency savings so that more water could condition of the Murray and the lower Dar- be released back for environment flows is ling rivers in many places is now in a state one very loud indicator of the problems we that could best be described as highly de- are facing. graded. The cleared land is frequently be- As I move around South Australia dis- coming salinised and biodiversity is declin- cussing the issue of water resources with ing significantly in many areas. The quality farmers and other key stakeholders, it is of wetlands in particular is constantly being abundantly clear that we cannot wait any reduced. The riparian vegetation along the longer for action to be undertaken. It is entire river is generally in a poor state. abundantly understood. One of the problems As I said, there is simply not enough wa- in South Australia is, I found, that two, three, ter being allowed to flow down the river. As four and in one case five different depart- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 205 ments are involved in the decision making reservoirs will recharge and everything will process, all passing the buck backwards and be fine. There is plenty of water.’ forwards between one another with very few However, information has now come into results finally finding their way into practical the public realm that shows very clearly that, reality. Despite all the problems we are fac- for many years, officials have known—those ing, things could get worse thanks to climate people monitoring the water tables knew that change. That will make it more and more the basins were facing major problems. In difficult for us to repair the landscape. By fact, it seems that, even at ministerial level, 2050 it is expected climate change will cause the knowledge was available. The state bu- reductions in the flow of many rivers in the reaucracy certainly had this information. I basin. Obviously, with less rainfall in winter seek leave to table—and I have discussed and greater rates of evaporation, we will be this with whips and also with Independent facing significant problems. Indeed, we are senators in this place—some details of looking probably at a 12 to 35 per cent re- ground water assessments on the Eyre Penin- duction in the mean flow into the basin. If sula. we just look at one isolated example, the Macquarie Marshes near Dubbo in New Leave granted. South Wales, already we see there significant Senator LEES—Most, if not nearly all, decline. Some 40 per cent loss of wetland of the water supplying Port Lincoln and be- vegetation has already occurred. That brings yond, up the peninsula, now comes from the with it a decreasing number of birds, turtles, Uley South Basin. As we look through these frogs et cetera. charts that detail the various basins on the While there are many more problems peninsula, we see why. It is basically because facing the Murray River—and I will be dis- most of the other basins have collapsed. The cussing these over the coming months in this water table is even falling in one basin in the place—decline of health of the Murray is not centre of the Lower Eyre Peninsula, and the only critical water issue facing South there is now no water actually being drawn Australia. The availability of drinkable water out. So as we come to Uley South Basin, and water for stock is even more critical, I which is a lens adjacent to the coast to the will argue, on the Eyre Peninsula. Histori- south and west of Port Lincoln, we see now cally the Eyre Peninsula has relied on water that some 8,000 megalitres a year of the supplies drawn from its underground basins. 9,000-odd megalitres used on the peninsula This has been supplemented by the limited is all coming from this one basin. But you amount of water available from the Todd can also see, as you look at the graphs on the River system, particularly the Todd Reser- chart, that this has fallen enormously since voir. The region’s population has been as- monitoring began in this basin in the 1960s sured, year after year, that water supplies are and that water tables have indeed got to the adequate and indeed that water is plentiful. point where there is a real risk of seawater This has been despite much evidence to the intrusion. contrary. The official response has been, As we go through and look at the Lincoln ‘Don’t worry; all is well.’ Basin, the other basin where a little water, This evidence, in particular, was coming but very little, is taken out, we see that it is from farmers who, instead of going down a literally within inches of seawater. It is actu- couple of metres for water, were going down ally sitting on salt water. From those to 10, 20, 30 or 40 metres to actually reach whom I spoke while visiting the peninsula, it water. Evidence was also coming from lo- seems that this is the only basin that has been cals, particularly those who had been several reasonably well used and monitored because generations in the district, just talking anec- they knew that the salt water was so close. dotally about swamps that have dried up. As you go through the other basins, you can But, no, they were told: ‘Don’t worry; all we see clearly that Polda North and Polda lenses need is one good rain and the underground have been shut down. As we look at the last remaining significant underground area on the peninsula that is able to be used, we look 206 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 at the possible incursion by the Southern not get the information as to why this was Ocean. It is known that it is linked, because discarded. For those who do have a chance to in years gone by fresh water used to flow out look at these charts later, you can see what of the basin and you could walk along the has happened in the Robinson lens, which sands and walk through it. There is not very supplies Streaky Bay. As I said, it is down to much space left in terms of the amount of sea level. We can see that, for years, the de- water being pulled out of that basin before tails have been hidden from the community. the reverse could easily occur. As has hap- We can now see, with this extension of the pened further north, you can have intrusion pipeline, even greater pressure put on what is of seawater into that last remaining source. an extremely limited water supply. The Todd Reservoir is highly saline and I must commend two local Eyre Peninsula nearly empty. This is noted on the second people, John Hyde and Sally Tonkin, for page of the paper I have just tabled. It shows their efforts in collecting the information you clearly what is happening to the Todd. and, indeed, for John Hyde’s years of work Water for human consumption can get up to in trying to get people to talk to him about around 1,500 parts per million of salt and the water shortages. Now they are finally then it is undrinkable. For stock, you can putting together the documentation and take that up to around 3,000, although they amassing the evidence needed to get greater will probably not like it very much. The community involvement. If we cannot get Todd Reservoir has recently recorded levels the results through the political process, then as high as 6,000 parts per million. Obviously, the community really needs to get active. I this is unusable without considerable dilu- think those ongoing efforts will be given tion. additional impetus now that we have yet We draw from all of this that the Eyre more pressure on this particular pipeline. Peninsula is suffering from both extremely There are more and more individuals be- low levels of water and increased salinity. coming involved in the process of finding a This is not just affecting the lower part of the solution. Eyre Peninsula, because this is the source for One of the most concerning problems with the entire peninsula. As you move up the the paper that I have tabled is the fact that peninsula and talk to people at Lock, they this was not supposed to be publicly avail- tell horrendous stories of what the water is able. This is a document that people came doing to polypipe, let alone to the fittings on upon by accident, having been told for years farmers’ drinking tanks. If you talk to people that not only was this evidence not available about the level of chlorine that now has to be but this type of documentation and summary put into this water, they will tell you that it is was not available. What we need now is a enough to bleach clothes in the wash. So we complete water audit of the entire peninsula, see that the entire peninsula is in a state of looking at the average rainfall, all forms of literal trepidation as to where their water water storage, the recharge rates on the vari- supply is going to come from. ous basins and demand. Demand is one of Unfortunately, one of the first announce- the areas I want to quickly dwell on in my ments by the new Premier of South Austra- last few minutes. lia, Mr Kerin, was a plan to extend the pipe- As John Hyde says, we have to look at line further. It already goes north and turns extraction rates. He stresses that we are sim- out to the west to service Ceduna—by which ply not replenishing stock and not seeing the time, I am told, often the water is barely rainfall keep up with what is being taken out. drinkable. Mr Kerin has now announced an Local authorities on the Eyre Peninsula have extension into Streaky Bay because that lens promoted diversification into farming prac- has collapsed. The water at Streaky Bay now tices, such as vines, that take a lot more wa- is so saline that it is unusable. We still do not ter than, for example, traditional grazing of have publicly available the alternatives that sheep, or a crop of wheat. The local catch- were looked at for Streaky Bay. I know that ment management board is now left—largely one of them was desalinisation, but we can- underfunded, I stress—with the job of look- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 207 ing at this dwindling supply, looking at the that it may work down around the Todd. An- crisis that the peninsula is in and somehow other suggestion is to simply draw a line in making recommendations to government the sand and then say, ‘Absolutely no more about ongoing management and basic re- development until such time as we have the search. catchment management board’s recommen- I commend here the mayor of Port Lin- dations,’ and I believe that this is an essential coln, Peter Davis. At a recent public meeting part of the solution. he gave some commitments relating to the Many people talk of water conservation funding of this water catchment management measures, and yes, again, the council, indus- board. Indeed, the recommendation is that try and others are already doing this. I have the levy the council puts on properties be met with some people in the seafood proc- doubled so at least they can do some basic essing industry who have already considera- research into alternatives and into water bly reduced their water consumption, and management practices on Eyre Peninsula. yes, this is part of the solution. But a major While the Port Lincoln City Council has source of clean, potable water is urgently been setting a good example—it is well needed. Time is of the essence. I would rec- aware that it needs to set the standard and ommend that what I was hearing up and conserve water itself—I cannot, unfortu- down and across the peninsula is seriously nately, say the same thing of the Lower Eyre considered, and this is the salt water desali- Peninsula District Council. It seems to have nation plant. The most logical place for this done little, if anything, to reduce pressure on is at Elliston, with its new 50 wind genera- the water available. It has allowed vineyards tors, which will be pumping power into the to be established. In one case, I saw the grid during the day. It is well possible that at vineyard set up without council approval and night that can be used to boost the desalina- then, after the fact, it went to the council and tion plant. We certainly should not be seeing it signed on the dotted line. This has led to coal or fossil fuels being used to produce the further development. I have seen a large desalinated water. Elliston would require, housing development where the white posts however, about 30 kilometres of new piping are in and the roads are in, and there is still out into the Polda Basin. One of the basins is no application to the council. Again, they completely dried up. If there were any excess just expect the council to tick it off at the end supply of water it could simply be used to of the day. It has to stop. We simply cannot recharge the aquifer, and the rest could be keep increasing the pressure while the re- pumped back out into the system. source dwindles to little, if anything. I must emphasise here that desalination I now want to go through some of the technology is not an oddity; it is indeed in- suggestions as to what can be done at this ternationally well accepted and has been time with resources already so limited. It is used since the 1980s and has been quite obvious that more is being taken out than the common since the 1990s. We are already rate of recharge, and this is unsustainable. using it in South Australia on Kangaroo Is- Some have suggested that we just increase land. The crisis is now so urgent that Eyre the length of piping coming from the Peninsula as well as the Murray has to be Murray. It already goes around to Port given a much higher priority on people’s Augusta-Whyalla; just add on to that, they lists. We must consider differently how we say, and pump out of the Murray. I hope that manage water in this very brown country of no-one will ever seriously consider that sug- ours. I say again that the availability of in- gestion. Another one is a large plastic sheet- formation such as this must be a right, not a ing process, which sounds a bit strange when lucky occurrence. We need to know what our you first think of it—huge areas of plastic resources are, and we need resources in other sheeting all running into a collection basin— forms to manage them properly. We must but this is already being done in both West- start thinking differently. I am calling again ern Australia and western New South Wales, for the Commonwealth to take the leadership quite successfully. Research so far suggests role not just in solving the problems of the 208 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Murray-Darling Basin but also in sorting out within those countries of persons increasingly critical problems in my home intercepted while travelling to state of South Australia, particularly in the Australia, publicly known as the entire Eyre Peninsula. ‘Pacific Solution’: Debate (on motion by Senator Hill) ad- (i) the nature of negotiations leading to those agreements, journed. (ii) the nature of the agreements COMMITTEES reached, A Certain Maritime Incident Committee (iii) the operation of those arrange- Establishment ments, and Senator FAULKNER (New South (iv) the current and projected cost of Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- those arrangements. ate) (4.21 p.m.)—by leave—I move: (2) That the committee consist of 7 senators, (1) That a select committee, to be known as 3 nominated by the Leader of the the Select Committee on a Certain Government in the Senate, 3 nominated Maritime Incident, be appointed to by the Leader of the Opposition in the inquire into and report by 16 May 2002 Senate, and 1 nominated by minority on the following matters: groups and independent senators. (a) the so-called ‘children overboard’ (3) That the committee may proceed to the incident, where an Indonesian vessel dispatch of business notwithstanding that was intercepted by HMAS Adelaide not all members have been duly within Australian waters reportedly nominated and appointed and 120 nautical miles off Christmas notwithstanding any vacancy. Island, on or about 6 October 2001; (4) That the chair of the committee be (b) issues directly associated with that elected by the committee from the incident, including: members nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. (i) the role of Commonwealth agen- cies and personnel in the incident, (5) That the deputy chair of the committee including the Australian Defence be elected by the committee from the Force, Customs, Coastwatch and members nominated by the Leader of the the Australian Maritime Safety Government in the Senate. Authority, (6) That the deputy chair act as chair when (ii) the flow of information about the there is no chair or the chair is not incident to the Federal Govern- present at a meeting. ment, both at the time of the inci- (7) That, in the event of the votes on any dent and subsequently, question before the committee being (iii) Federal Government control of, equally divided, the chair, or deputy and use of, information about the chair when acting as chair, have a incident, including written and oral casting vote. reports, photographs, videotapes (8) That the committee and any and other images, and subcommittee have power to send for (iv) the role of Federal Government and examine persons and documents, to departments and agencies in re- move from place to place, to sit in public porting on the incident, including or in private, notwithstanding any the Navy, the Defence Organisa- prorogation of the Parliament or tion, the Department of Immigra- dissolution of the House of tion and Multicultural Affairs, the Representatives, and have leave to report Department of the Prime Minister from time to time its proceedings and the and Cabinet, and the Office of Na- evidence taken and such interim tional Assessments; and recommendations as it may deem fit. (c) in respect of the agreements between (9) That the committee have power to the Australian Government and the appoint subcommittees consisting of 3 or Governments of Nauru and Papua more of its members and to refer to any New Guinea regarding the detention such subcommittee any of the matters Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 209

which the committee is empowered to afternoon of 10 October because the issue ap- consider. peared to have been clarified. (10) That the committee be provided with all The issue appeared to have been clarified? necessary staff, facilities and resources What an extraordinary statement to make. and be empowered to appoint persons This matter can be properly and thoroughly with specialist knowledge for the examined only by a public Senate inquiry, purposes of the committee with the and the resolution that I move today enables approval of the President. that particular inquiry to take place. I must (11) That the committee be empowered to say that we have had a very tangled web print from day to day such documents woven on this issue. There is no doubt that and evidence as may be ordered by it, and a daily Hansard be published of the Howard government deceived the Aus- such proceedings as take place in public. tralian people on this issue, and what the opposition says is that it is time to unravel The opposition has moved this motion to the web. It is time that we cleared up the establish a committee on what generally has various versions of events that have come been known as the ‘children overboard inci- from ministers, from departments and from dent’ that occurred during the federal elec- agencies to find out what happened and how tion campaign. I thank the Senate clerks for it was done. helpfully removing the tabloid colloquialism and renaming the event ‘a certain maritime I think the report which was tabled today incident’, which is perhaps more appropri- in the House of Representatives by Mr How- ate—but, if not more appropriate, certainly ard—the political tactic is to get all of the more senatorial. bad news out on the first day that there is a full parliamentary sitting; it is an age-old Today’s tabling by the Prime Minister of tactic that Senator Hill knows well—has the internal PM&C report Investigation into generated many more questions than it an- advice provided to ministers on “SIEV 4” swers. It is important that many of the people really does reinforce the need for a full par- who were interviewed for this Prime Minis- liamentary inquiry to scrutinise this matter. It ter and Cabinet report alone—not to mention does not get Mr Howard, and it does not get all of the other reports that have been under- the government, off the hook on this issue. taken, including one in Senator Hill’s own This report reveals an appalling lack of proc- department—who were interviewed for this ess and wide knowledge that what was being report by an officer of the Department of said publicly by ministers was wrong, and it Prime Minister and Cabinet, are interviewed points very strongly to a serious cover-up by by a parliamentary committee where all certain ministerial advisers and ministers. It those who come before the committee are is inconceivable that Mr Howard did not bound by rules on providing evidence within know that what was being said publicly was that forum. just plain wrong. Look at page vii of this report. Let me just quickly quote from it: There is no doubt that this report indicates that Mr Reith, and Mr Reith’s staff, knew In the light of continuing media attention, PM&C contacted Defence Strategic Command seeking within 24 hours of his statements that ele- evidence to confirm the initial advice and asking ments of his original statement about chil- for a chronology of events. A chronology was dren overboard were wrong. There is abso- provided to PM&C at around noon on 10 Octo- lutely no doubt. Look at page ix under the ber, carrying the footnote “There is no indication heading, ‘Key findings regarding correction that children were thrown overboard. It is possi- of misunderstanding about the photographs’: ble that this did occur in conjunction with other By 1100 on 11 October 2001, Mr Reith and a SUNCs jumping overboard”. number of his senior advisers had been informed I interpolate here that a SUNC is a suspected that the photographs released the previous day did unlawful noncitizen. The report continues: not depict children in the water after having been PM&C did not pursue the issue further once the thrown overboard on 7 October. photographs were released to the media on the I have only had the most cursory opportu- nity—I have been stuck in this chamber 210 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 since two o’clock today—to read some as- Brown relating to extending the inquiry into pects of this Investigation into advice pro- the Tampa-DSD matters which were a matter vided to ministers on “SIEV 4” report, but of questioning in question time today. I do there are an amazing number of questions understand the motivation of Senator Brown that just this report alone raises. I know that in this; I think these are proper questions to today in the House of Representatives Mr ask. But we believe that the select committee Howard really used every trick in the book to is the wrong forum in which to pursue ques- avoid answering the direct question, ‘When tions about the activities of the Defence Sig- did you know?’ When was the Prime Minis- nals Directorate and other intelligence or- ter told? ganisations in relation to the Tampa incident. Mr Howard was pressed on this but he We do welcome the fact that the Inspec- was either unwilling or unable to name the tor-General of Intelligence and Security has date. He refused to tell the parliament when decided that he will examine all matters per- he knew. No Australian appreciates being taining to the interception and processing of misled by their government; in fact, Austra- communication between the Tampa and oth- lians hate being lied to—they really do— ers. He must examine how this material was particularly by people, governments and processed, who received the information and those of us in public life and in parliament, how it was used. He must do all that. But in whom they invest their trust. This behav- also—and I know Senator Brown would iour in relation to this incident is, in the view want to do this—we have to look at what the of the opposition, the antithesis of proper, outcome of the inspector-general’s inquiries transparent democratic process. Using in- might be. Under the new security legislation cumbency and using the reputation of our that was passed by this parliament last year, defence forces and intelligence agencies to it is, in the view of the opposition, appropri- create a grossly inaccurate perception of ate not to overturn the processes that were events that are very emotional in their nature, agreed, I think without dissent, by both and to do that for political purposes, is about chambers of this parliament. We believe that as low as a government can go. That is why Mr Blick’s report should be presented to the we want to explore this issue and see how far parliamentary joint committee on ASIO, the Howard government sank on this par- ASIS and DSD. I might say that by ‘report’ I ticular matter. mean ‘unexpurgated report’—a full report We had discussions with minor party going to those issues that can be dealt with if senators, the Australian Democrats, and the necessary by that committee out of the public Independent senators, and after those discus- arena. sions the opposition agreed to extend the Having said that—and I made this very terms of reference that I had originally pro- clear earlier today in this chamber—all those posed for this inquiry and examine the cost elements of the report should be made pub- and processes behind Mr Howard’s so-called licly available. All those elements which do ‘Pacific Solution’. Of course, since the New not compromise national security must be Year there have been media reports of vast provided fully and publicly on this important blow-outs in the budget covering the estab- issue. Accepting that Senator Brown’s moti- lishment and maintenance of offshore deten- vation here to investigate what appears to be tion centres; we think it is appropriate that yet another abuse of process is proper, we this be examined and we have accommo- will not support the amendment on the basis dated the Australian Democrats, particularly, that the investigation in the first instance, as who put those views to us, and I know that it should be, is being pursued by the Inspec- they are supported by other senators in the tor-General of Intelligence and Security. chamber. I urge the Senate to support this motion on Before I complete my comments, because the establishment of the select committee, I know time is short on this, I want to very especially in light of the new information briefly address one of the amendments that that we know from the documents that have will come forward in the name of Senator been tabled in the House of Representatives Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 211 today. Further ramifications are revealed in that farce again today. It has been predeter- this document Investigation into advice pro- mined. It is a great disappointment to me that vided to ministers on “SIEV 4” that has been the Australian Democrats do not appear to be released by Mr Howard. These matters will learning their lesson: if they are to be a third not go away. It is a high priority for the Sen- party they have got to show some objectivity ate to deal with them, and we believe that the and independence from the Australian Labor approach that the opposition has taken in Party. They have not done it here and it is a consultation with minor party and Independ- long time since they in fact did that. ent senators is the appropriate course of ac- Senator Ludwig—That’s not true. tion. I commend the opposition’s motion to the Senate. Senator HILL—You can defend the Democrats if you like, Senator. They will Senator HILL (South Australia—Leader appreciate that. On the issue of the children of the Government in the Senate) (4.33 overboard, the government has come clean p.m.)—This is a political stunt. The Austra- and provided the parliament with the results lian Labor Party and the Australian Demo- of a substantial inquiry into that event—an crats have come together again, as they so inquiry that was ordered by the Prime Min- often do—it is really hard to find division ister, I might say, because the Prime Minister between them these days—to set up a com- is of the view that this matter should be on mittee to achieve a certain outcome, and the the public record. That has been done and so outcome is obviously designed to be criti- the public are now well informed in that re- cism of the government. As Senator Faulkner gard, so there is little point in going through knows, that is generally what happens. It also that process at all. happens on the first day of a sitting and they are doing it again today. Illustration that this From the Labor Party’s perspective, this is is just a political hatchet job I think can be really about camouflaging their state of pol- found clearly when you look at the terms of icy confusion on the matter of border protec- reference and you find that the chair of the tion. This is all about the issue of border committee under these terms that have been protection: what is necessary to protect Aus- drawn up in collusion between the Labor tralia’s borders and what you do in relation Party and the Democrats must be a member to those who breach the borders. As we of the Australian Labor Party. This commit- know, detention in Australia was actually tee has to be run by a nominee of Senator introduced by the Labor Party, but they are Faulkner. The reason for that is obviously now running 100 miles an hour in the oppo- that it is designed to achieve a political out- site direction because they are split. The come rather than a real determination of the members of the frontbench say they are facts and something that might be useful to ashamed of the existing policy, and the cur- the Australian people. rent leadership of the Australian Labor Party is not prepared to require discipline from There was a time, I might say, when select them, so they have divided. It is very embar- committees were automatically chaired by rassing and awkward. the government side. It was believed that that was a reasonable thing. Then we went Then you have the issue of border protec- through a phase when on occasions an Inde- tion itself: do they support the government’s pendent senator was appointed chairman to position on border protection or not? In the give a little more objectivity, for obvious election, they said they did; now that they are reasons. It has now gone one step further, back in opposition, they really do not want to and the whole Senate select committee proc- acknowledge that because, again, half the ess now has really lost its substance and pur- party say they are opposed to it. What the pose and has simply become another politi- Australian government says is that we will cal tool. The end result of that is that it is a protect the borders. Those who engage in waste of time and money and it does not criminal conspiracy—in other words, those achieve anything worth while in terms of who engage people smugglers to breach our Senate process at all. We are going through borders to behave illegally—will be returned to where they came from. In some circum- 212 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 stances, those who breach the borders will be that, which is the last thing the Australian sent to a third country where they will be Labor Party wants to see on this issue. processed rather than being allowed to take It is a matter of regret to me, on the first advantage of Australia, which has been seen day back, that there is no sign that, after six as a soft touch. years in opposition, the Labor Party has Yes, it has been a firm response. It has learnt its lessons. It just wants to engage in been a fair and humane response and it is political stunts. It wants to cover up its inter- actually working. Perhaps that is what is nal disarray and its policy vacuum and, in frustrating the Labor Party more than any- doing so, it is going to cost a number of thing. It is a response that the Australian senators a lot of time and, what is more im- people appreciate, and it is working. In con- portant, the public a lot of money. trast, the ALP is all over the shop—it does Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.41 not know what its policy ought to be; it is p.m.)—I support the motion because there is divided between the left and right. I do not a prima facie case that the government, in- know whether Senator Faulkner is with his cluding the Prime Minister, was involved in Left colleague Carmen Lawrence from a deception of the Australian people over the Western Australia or whether he is with Mr videotapes purporting to show children being Crean on this particular issue, and I am sure thrown in the water in the run-up to an elec- he would not be prepared to get up and tell tion. When, at the critical period when peo- us that. ple are deciding who should be in govern- Senator Faulkner—With the Labor ment in a democracy, you have senior mem- Party. bers of cabinet—and, indeed, the Prime Senator HILL—Where is Carmen Law- Minister by implication—involved in de- rence? Isn’t she on your frontbench? Any- ceiving the Australian public, then it war- way, to cover this disarray, the Senate is to rants the most serious investigation, the dis- be subjected to what is clearly going to be a covery of the facts and the revelation of ex- useless, time-consuming and expensive pub- actly what happened and who was responsi- lic inquiry that is unlikely to contribute any- ble. The buck stops with the Prime Minister. thing useful at all. We will be opposed to I repeat: the buck stops with the Prime Min- this. In relation to Senator Brown’s amend- ister. It is very important that the matter be ment, he wants to add another matter which independently and thoroughly investigated. is the subject of examination by the Inspec- I will add that, at the time of the incident, tor-General of Intelligence and Security. The I made it clear that I had serious doubts inspector-general should carry out his task; about those reports. The opposition ought to the office is designed that way to give public have moved at that time to demand an in- confidence. There is no need to include that quiry into the matter but they have left it un- as a term of reference, and we will be op- til much later and, indeed, now we are get- posed to that. ting an inquiry. We now have vigorous pub- In relation to Senator Murphy’s proposal lic debate as to whether there has been to include an extra Independent senator, we eavesdropping on Australian citizens in the will support it—for what it is worth—be- matter of communications with the Tampa cause anything that is going to throw a small during the huge international controversy spanner into this happy harmony between the over the asylum seekers aboard, who were Australian Democrats and the Australian picked up by the Tampa in August last year, Labor Party is something we think might be and the consequent events. This matter is worth while. We wish Senator Murphy well; also extraordinarily serious, and that is why I this will actually be a test of his independ- move an amendment: ence. Maybe, if this amendment happens to At end of paragraph (1), add: get up, we should move that Senator Murphy (d) how information from the Defence Signals be the chair of this committee, but I bet the Directorate was conveyed to and used by the Labor Party would not like that because there Government during and since the Tampa crisis. could be just a touch of objectivity within Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 213

The opposition has indicated that it is satis- there is being used to lead people to believe fied, so far, that the matter be left in the that only certain calls were being listened to. hands of the inspector-general. I am not. I The way in which this encryption service would expect that, when that report is avail- works is that all calls are targeted and able, a Senate inquiry would have the in- through a computer mechanism certain calls spector-general come before it to be ques- are downloaded, investigated and analysed. tioned and that, as Senator Faulkner just in- We need to be clear about that: all calls were dicated, the report in full would be released being targeted at that time. to the public. It is very important that the We now have the Minister for Defence inspector-general be there to explain how his saying that there has been a minor misde- inquiry has proceeded and that the Senate, meanour, but he is not saying what that mis- the parliament and the people of Australia demeanour was. I say to the government: if it are able to assess for themselves the thor- is a minor matter, why don’t you say so? The oughness of that inquiry and what matters government is making a mistake by not re- may not have been undertaken during its vealing what the nature of this so-called mi- course. I am concerned that, once again, the nor matter was. It would take a lot of heat opposition is allowing the government to set out of the debate at the moment and a lot of the agenda here and with the efflux of time— concern out of the public domain if the gov- they hope—to have the matter taken off the ernment were to come clean and tell us what agenda or dealt with in a way which is not that minor infraction of the rules was that fully public and which allows people who was committed during the heat of an election were involved at the time, but who may have campaign and which, by implication, advan- moved away, to be able to fudge the evi- taged the government or somebody else to dence when the time comes. That does not the disadvantage of an Australian citizen. satisfy me. How can it be that a minor matter is still The opposition should be supporting this subject to cover-up and secrecy? This is a amendment. The inspector-general will un- breach of the rules which this parliament has dertake his inquiry and that information must set, which this parliament expects to be car- come forward, but it should then be subject ried through and which this parliament to the scrutiny of a parliamentary committee should now be investigating. That is why this such as this one. Indeed—and I have made amendment is important. this public—that information should be sub- The Labor Party is making a mistake by ject to a fully independent judicial inquiry not supporting this Green amendment for a which may subpoena evidence and go into parliamentary investigation into the DSD’s matters which are of national security which activity vis-a-vis the government during the cannot be canvassed in public but can be election campaign, and having it now. The canvassed in camera by a properly appointed Labor Party is making a mistake by now judicial inquiry. backing off from this alternative. The Labor There can be no more serious matter than Party is making a mistake by saying that it when a government or its agencies spy on will accept Prime Minister Howard saying, innocent citizens of the country. There can ‘Let’s leave it to the inspector-general.’ He is be no more serious matter than when a gov- no doubt an honourable man but this is a ernment would be involved in using infor- political matter now and the buck stops with mation against citizens of the country for the Prime Minister. And it will only stop political purposes, let alone commercial pur- there properly if you have a strong and vig- poses or any other matters that are not to do orous opposition taking it up to the Prime with national security. I noticed the words Minister. Now is the time to have a Senate being used in this debate—for example, that inquiry into this matter. Is the public going to messages from the international labour body be satisfied by a report from the inspector- concerned were not targeted by those inter- general which has large pieces marked ‘not cepting the signals. All the calls going to the for publication’, which is dealt with by a Tampa were targeted. The word ‘targeted’ standing committee which is not empowered 214 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 to look after the public interest in this mat- of the broader aspect of the level of deliber- ter? I doubt it. So I ask the opposition to re- ate dishonesty that this government will en- consider this important amendment and to gage in, particularly on this issue. They support it, instead of backing down at the know it is an election winner. The only rea- moment when an inquiry should be put for- son they are still on the government benches ward. is their exploitation of this issue, and they Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (4.49 exploited it without any concern for the p.m.)—I foreshadow that I intend to move a facts, the truth or the cost of the damage to motion that seeks to amend paragraph (2) of the country. I think a trend is starting to Senator Faulkner’s motion. emerge now. People are becoming more aware: they are aware that there was clear Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (4.50 misleading of the Australian people by the p.m.)—The Democrats are very pleased that minister and the Prime Minister—a range of this motion has been moved by Senator ministers—about what happened in relation Faulkner to establish this inquiry and appre- to this incident. That is why this inquiry is so ciate very much the cooperation that the La- important. bor Party has shown in taking on board some of the suggestions of the Democrats. The We have seen the extraordinary revela- Democrats believe that there are broader as- tions yesterday in relation to the Department pects of the government’s refugee policy that of Defence tapping telephones and the gov- have changed so dramatically in the last six ernment's cover-up in relation to that. It months that they need to be examined fur- shows again the lengths the government will ther, and the inclusion of some aspects of the go to. We have had the issue I raised in Pacific solution by Labor will allow us to go question time today of allegations made to some way towards that. But I still believe convince the Australian people that adults that there is much more that needs to be done were, basically, forcibly sewing children's to get to the truth and facts behind the gov- lips together—allegations that have subse- ernment’s policy and how it is operating. quently been extensively investigated and However, we will certainly pursue that dur- found to be completely false. I think there is ing estimates next week and see what can a pretty clear pattern emerging here. On come out there and revisit at a later time the anything to do with immigration or refugees, potential for a broader inquiry. whether it is tapping telephone calls to the Tampa or whether it is misleading the Aus- In the short term, the inclusion in this mo- tralian people about the activities of refugees tion of a component enabling the committee and asylum seekers themselves, this gov- to examine the nature of the agreements be- ernment cannot be trusted. The statements tween Australia, Nauru and Papua New they make about this area cannot be trusted. Guinea will provide us with a good opportu- nity to examine the many unanswered ques- In such a circumstance, where, we now tions about that aspect of the government’s know, the form is there, the record is clear. policy, as well as the core issue of the mari- Because the government know that it has time incident itself—the children overboard been so politically valuable for them, in this incident. This is also an area where there are area of policy they obviously will do what- many questions that need answering. It is a ever it takes, including deceiving the Austra- perfect example of this government’s whole lian people, to try and maximise that elec- approach to the very difficult and complex toral advantage. At least in this policy area, I issue of refugee policy, and examining think the Senate—and more and more the broader aspects to do with Nauru and PNG Australian public—are now realising that will show up much more the government’s you simply cannot take the government at disingenuousness, obfuscation and deliberate their word. That being the case, we have to misleading of the people about what they are examine the facts ourselves. We have to actually doing. make sure that we can be informed in an ac- curate way about what is happening and The facts have to come out, not just in about the policy so the Australian people can terms of the public being aware but in terms Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 215 get the facts instead of distortions and misin- out, but I think it would be best to see what formation from the government. This is a the Inspector-General of Intelligence and very valuable inquiry. Security produces first. That may well then Senator Hill, for some reason, seemed to lead to another inquiry similar to this one, think that it was a terrible thing for the where we have to examine again exactly how Democrats to actually cooperate with the low the government went in terms of their Labor Party. I am not sure if that attitude level of deceit of the Australian people. But I would be replicated when we cooperate with think that is something for later, rather than the government, which we obviously do for now. plenty of times. I know it is just cheap politi- Question negatived. cal rhetoric from Senator Hill but, nonethe- Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (4.58 less, it is pretty obviously a hollow claim. p.m.)—I move: Indeed, it is very rare, I would think, for La- bor and the Democrats to have reached a Omit paragraph (2), substitute: common view on anything to do with immi- (2) that the committee consist of 8 senators, gration and refugee policy. In the last six 3 nominated by the Leader of the months we have been very much out on our Government in the Senate, 3 nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the own, so this is a rarity, if anything, and, in Senate, 1 nominated by the Australian that sense, we welcome it. And as illustration Democrats, and 1 nominated by of the temporary nature of such cooperation, independent senators. the so-called cosy relationship between La- Question agreed to. bor and the Democrats will be rent asunder because we will be supporting Senator Mur- Senator FAULKNER (New South phy’s amendment when he moves it and I Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- understand the Labor Party will not. For the ate) (4.58 p.m.)—Normally, the opposition information of Senator Hill, who may wish would consider dividing on this. It is clear to note this comment, I have had no discus- from the voices that this particular amend- sions with the Labor Party about the chair of ment has been carried on the voices. We the committee. I am quite open to discussion might have divided, but given the hour of with all members of the committee about day we will not on this occasion. I just rec- what the best option might be. That is ord the opposition's position in the negative. something that would be worth examining. If Question put: Senator Hill wants to move away from fairly That the motion (Senator Faulkner’s), as fatuous political rhetoric and get down to amended, be agreed to. trying to be constructive, we will happily The Senate divided. [5.03 p.m.] examine that. The Democrats will be sup- porting this motion. (The President—Senator the Hon. Marga- ret Reid) I should put on the record that we will not be supporting Senator Brown’s amendment. Ayes………… 35 We have motions on the notice paper already Noes………… 32 in terms of requesting the Inspector-General Majority……… 3 of Intelligence and Security to investigate and report to parliament, and that is going to AYES be undertaken. I saw Senator Brown himself Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. on the television news—it is always good to Bourne, V.W. Brown, B.J. see him on the media, putting forward his Buckland, G. Campbell, G. wisdom—saying we need an independent Carr, K.J. Cherry, J.C. inquiry into this issue. I agree, and think it is Collins, J.M.A. Cook, P.F.S. going to happen with the Inspector-General Cooney, B.C. Crossin, P.M. of Intelligence and Security. A Senate in- Crowley, R.A. Denman, K.J. quiry, while it is very useful, is not inde- Evans, C.V. Faulkner, J.P. pendent. That is not to say I would rule it Forshaw, M.G. Gibbs, B. Greig, B. Hogg, J.J. 216 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Hutchins, S.P. Lees, M.H. happen in Tasmania, of course. She was a Ludwig, J.W. Mackay, S.M. * strong community worker and, I think she McKiernan, J.P. McLucas, J.E. would like to say, a soldier’s wife, a mother Murphy, S.M. Murray, A.J.M. and a whole lot of other things that enabled O’Brien, K.W.K. Ray, R.F. her to have a great breadth of experience and Ridgeway, A.D. Schacht, C.C. talent to bring to this place. That was quickly Sherry, N.J. Stott Despoja, N. recognised in the shadow ministry. She was, West, S.M. at various times, shadow minister for veter- NOES ans affairs, which was an area she greatly Abetz, E. Alston, R.K.R. loved; defence, science and personnel; the Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. aged; status of women—another area where Calvert, P.H. Campbell, I.G. she had a great commitment; family; health; Chapman, H.G.P. Coonan, H.L. and defence. She is obviously somebody Eggleston, A. Ellison, C.M. who was recognised early for her talents and Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. was given significant responsibility in oppo- Gibson, B.F. Harris, L. sition. Heffernan, W. Herron, J.J. When you look at her early contributions Hill, R.M. Kemp, C.R. in the Senate, you see the strong values that Lightfoot, P.R. Macdonald, I. she brought to this place and the causes that Macdonald, J.A.L. Mason, B.J. she was going to fight for during the years McGauran, J.J.J. * Minchin, N.H. Patterson, K.C. Payne, M.A. she was here. I remember in her first speech Reid, M.E. Scullion, N.G. she talked about her commitment to our fed- Tchen, T. Tierney, J.W. eral system of justice, to education, to family Vanstone, A.E. Watson, J.O.W. life and to social security, but in particular she talked about responsibility. If there are PAIRS two words that, in my experience of Jocelyn Bishop, T.M. Crane, A.W. over a long time, encapsulate her attitude and Conroy, S.M. Colbeck, R. her contribution, they are ‘responsibility’ and Bolkus, N. Knowles, S.C. ‘duty.’ She saw that she had a major respon- Lundy, K.A. Troeth, J.M. sibility as a Tasmanian senator, as a shadow * denotes teller minister and, later on, as a minister, but she Question agreed to. also saw that she had a duty to the Australian VALEDICTORY people that she was performing in this place. Senator HILL (South Australia—Minis- She was appointed Minister for Social Se- ter for Defence) (5.08 p.m.)—This is an op- curity, Minister for Family and Community portunity for us to say a few words about two Services, and Minister Assisting the Prime colleagues, one of whom has just retired Minister on the Status of Women. She spent from the Senate and one of whom is about to a considerable time as the only woman in retire. Jocelyn Newman recently retired and cabinet, which gave her an extra responsibil- Brian Gibson, as he mentioned in moving the ity which she represented very well. Some address-in-reply today, will have retired be- might say that she may have been one fore we meet again in this chamber. This is woman, but she more than matched all those an opportunity for us to recognise with ap- males on gender issues. preciation what they have contributed to the She and her husband were, I think, the Senate and to public life in Australia. first example of a husband and wife who Jocelyn Newman and I have worked to- served in a ministry in the Commonwealth. gether in this place for a considerable period Her late husband was, of course, a minister of time. She came in 1986, from a strong in the Fraser government— professional background. Actually it is a Senator Faulkner—Joseph and Enid Ly- very varied background, as not only a lawyer ons. but a business woman—and, somebody told me, a pea and potato farmer. That could only Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 217

Senator Abetz—Another good Tasma- that form of service. This has all contributed nian example. to the career of a politician who I believe has Senator HILL—It comes with Tasmania. made a very significant contribution to this It took a long time for there to be another Senate, to Australian government and to example. But it was a succession with the public life in this country. Lyonses, whereas this was a little more diffi- Apart from all those things, she has been a cult to achieve—if I can put it delicately, good friend of mine and a good supporter. with no disrespect to the Lyons family. Within the party, within the Senate and She mentioned what she sees as her high- within cabinet, we have had a few battles in lights, and I think they are worth putting on which we have found ourselves on the same the record at this time. They do not surprise side and, more often than not, we have won me at all. They are: firmly placing welfare in the end. I think it has probably been her reform on the agenda and delivering a direc- help that has enabled that to be achieved. I tional statement that made clear the govern- wish Jocelyn all the best in her retirement— ment’s intentions on reform of the social se- she deserves it. In my view, her retirement curity system; the establishment of Centre- will be a significant loss to the Liberal Party, link, the most significant reform of public to this Senate and to Australian public life. sector administration in the history of the Brian Gibson has not been with us for as Commonwealth; and restoration of public long. What do they say about Brian? People confidence in the administration of Austra- have said, ‘He’s a nice bloke. You couldn’t lia’s social security system. She did all three, find a more principled man.’ Somebody once and that enormous achievement would be said to me, ‘Brian Gibson is far too good for enough for her to be recognised as a very politics—far too good to be a politician,’ and significant contributor to public life and I sometimes think there was an ounce of public reform in this country. Jocelyn has, of truth in that. Brian came to us with a strong course, not had it easy, with bouts of serious academic background, with a degree in sci- ill health and also the death of her late hus- ence, in forestry, an arts degree from Mel- band while she was serving in a ministry. bourne University, and having studied man- But, in typical Jocelyn style, she battled on, agement at Harvard Business School. He had performed her duty and continued to be an worked within Australia and internationally. excellent contributor to the government. I do not think everyone knows that he I also want to mention other areas of in- worked with the United Nations. As I under- terest to Jocelyn. I mentioned defence. Like stand, he studied management at the Harvard all Tasmanians, she has a particular interest Business School in Switzerland and then in rural and regional affairs and is also very worked with the United Nations in Jamaica. involved in and committed to the education He is indeed a worldly person. of gifted and talented children, something In the areas of forestry and agricultural which I think is often neglected in this coun- matters, which were really his professional try. I mentioned her passionate interest in strengths when he came here, there is no- women’s issues. I remind honourable sena- body with a better knowledge in this parlia- tors that Jocelyn was a founding member of ment than Brian. He has been recognised for the women’s shelters in Hobart and his contributions to the forest industry. In Launceston. She was also an early member, 1988 he was appointed a Member of the Or- if not a founding member, of the Women’s der of Australia for service to the forestry Electoral Lobby. Outside of her political industry when, as President of the National world and her family, gardening was, and Association of Forest Industry, he was remains, a great interest of hers. She was a prominent in forestry matters in Tasmania. member of the Federal Executive of the His business career included being Managing Australian Garden History Society. Her in- Director of Australian Newsprint Mills, spiration has been her family and the sense Chair of the Hydro-Electric Commission of of duty that she shared with her husband, Tasmania and Councillor of the Australian through service life and the commitment of 218 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Institute of Company Directors. (Extension man at the time his widow was serving in of time granted) this parliament. It was an extraordinary thing His contribution, apart from being a really to participate in. Of course, just yesterday we decent fellow whom you could rely on at all farewelled three former ministers, but I think times to give you sound and fearless advice, it makes a very great difference if you have a has been predominantly in the business and situation where the surviving partner is a financial accountability areas. We will all member of the chamber when condolences remember his contribution to the new tax are made. I am sure that is something that system and his contribution to enhancing the senators do not forget. We certainly wish audit capabilities of the parliament. He Jocelyn Newman well in her retirement and served for a while as the Parliamentary Sec- hope she has a very enjoyable and fulfilling retary to the Treasurer, and did that ably, I time. might say. I would have to say, putting it in Brian, best wishes to you in your future. its most mild form, that he was a touch un- You are doing what all politicians should lucky in the circumstances that ended that want to do—that is, retire from parliament at when he was certainly on the rise within his a time of your own choosing. That is some- parliamentary career. thing that is very important, as so many of us I wish Brian a long, happy and enjoyable can attest to. You had only a short time on retirement and I want to be recorded as par- the front bench and I have no doubt that the ticularly appreciating the contribution that he circumstances that surrounded that caused has made to my party, to this Senate and to you not inconsiderable pain. It was an ex- public life in Australia. traordinarily difficult situation which you handled in a very dignified way. Again, you Senator FAULKNER (New South are not the only politician who has faced that Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- situation, as we know, but you handled it in a ate) (5.19 p.m.)—I associate the opposition way that brought great credit to you. formally with these valedictories to former Senator Jocelyn Newman and Senator Brian When people speak in valedictory debates, Gibson. Of course, it is always very different often a senator’s committee service is men- when you find yourself on the other side of tioned. I tend not to touch on that; sometimes the chamber from those you pay tribute to. it is mentioned, I suspect, because senators The nature of the relationships across the cannot think of other things to say. But in chamber are different and interaction across relation to Brian Gibson, I do want to say the chamber inevitably is different. My main something quite genuinely. Brian Gibson contact, in fact, with Jocelyn Newman came was one of the best chairs of a parliamentary when she was Minister for Social Security committee I have seen. He was a very good and I was the shadow minister for social se- chair of an estimates committee basically curity. She was a formidable politician and a because he understood politics—that was the formidable political opponent. difference. It was really crucial. He under- stood that on estimates committees, with the I suppose if you compared Joseph and coalition in government and Labor sena- Enid Lyons to Jocelyn and Kevin Newman, tors—and he had to put up with me and you really would make the point that the key Senator Robert Ray mainly on the Finance difference between Enid Lyons and Jocelyn and Public Administration Legislation Newman is that Jocelyn Newman had very Committee— serious and senior political responsibilities in this parliament for a very long period of Senator Patterson—That’s a challenge! time, particularly in relation to her ministe- Senator FAULKNER—We do our best, rial responsibilities. The other thing that Senator Patterson. We are here to serve. stands out in my mind when we are re- Senator Gibson understood the nature of the minded about these extraordinary political process and worked well within it. I recall partnerships, where husbands and wives that Senator Mason, who took over your re- serve on the executive council, is that we had sponsibilities as chairman of the Finance and a condolence motion here for Kevin New- Public Administration Legislation Commit- Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 219 tee, said, ‘Is there any way we can proceed icy; she was interested in both. She had a that will make this thing run smoothly?’ I fervent commitment to women’s issues but said, ‘The best advice I can give you is to she was also passionately interested in a talk to Brian Gibson because he really does number of other issues, defence being the know how the show works.’ It is always a love of her life, just as her late husband was. worry when your political opponents say Again, in that sense, she broke the mould these sorts of things. It is best to say them on because it was not either/or. Time and again a senator’s retirement because people might in cabinet she would remind us in no uncer- be misunderstood. In this case, the way Brian tain terms that we had to be very conscious Gibson handled his responsibilities as chair- of what we were doing and the impact that it man of an estimates committees meant that would have on the majority of the commu- he minimised the political impact of what the nity—and very timely admonitions they opposition might have done during hearings were. of legislation committees. That was his role, Through all the time she was here, she and he understood that. He did it very effec- was a person of great integrity and principle. tively indeed. Brian, we wish you and your She certainly believed in a large number of family very well in the future and hope you causes. She was very conscious of her public enjoy a very productive time outside this responsibilities. I think she saw it as a great chamber. We are all terribly jealous. honour, which it is, to be able to serve. Not Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister all are able to serve at the highest levels, and for Communications, Information Technol- she certainly made a very marked contribu- ogy and the Arts) (5.27 p.m.)—It is a great tion at every stage. Certainly in cabinet she pleasure to speak in honour of former Sena- had a unique status. The responsibility she tor Newman and Senator Gibson. Jocelyn had, first in the social welfare portfolio and Newman sat next to me for a period of years subsequently in the Family and Community in this chamber since we have been in gov- Services portfolio, was truly awesome, and it ernment, having come into the Senate only a was one she carried out very impressively. matter of months before me. In many ways, Getting on top of the detail can sometimes be there have been some interesting parallels. I numbing, and yet every slip is a minefield—I have been in a position to make judgments thought she negotiated that area remarkably about both Jocelyn’s political ability and her well. character traits. I heard Senator Faulkner What I would say about Jocelyn is that she graciously say that she was a formidable op- was really ‘firm but fair’, and you cannot ask ponent. You could almost say that from our for much more than that. She had a determi- side as well. If you were a member of the nation which marked her out from most, but Expenditure Review Committee and had the she was also very concerned to ensure that temerity to oppose a certain proposition, then she was doing the right thing at all times by Jocelyn was a very vigorous, determined and all constituents, and by colleagues and oth- dogged opponent. ers. I will remember her fondly. She has de- Jocelyn was absolutely determined to give parted from this place, and I very much hope her all in aid of a cause in which she be- that she will enjoy her retirement years. She lieved. Having accepted responsibilities at remains, of course, absolutely committed to the highest level, she was very persistent in her family: she will have many happy dis- pursuing those causes, as she should have tractions on that front, but I know she will been and as those she represented would find many other things to do to ensure that have expected. That is the characteristic I her active mind is fully utilised. So I pay most recall about Jocelyn, and I do so with great tribute to Jocelyn as someone of tre- great fondness because in many ways she mendous physical and political courage who broke a lot of moulds. Many people are just has been one of the Liberal Party’s great lawyers, people can be just small business contributors. people; she was both. You can be interested Senator Brian Gibson came in here a little in politics and you can be interested in pol- after me, but in many ways Brian is also 220 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 unique. It is very difficult to persuade people lawyer but you have to have the hands-on in business to come into politics: they might experience. Senator Boswell was able to come in here if they think that they will earn make his fortune many years ago and to more money or that they have run out of op- come on and faithfully serve his country tions or if they somehow think that it is just since that time, but I think he would ac- something you might move on to late in life, knowledge that Brian Gibson had skills and but Brian was one of those very unusual experience that are very rarely found in fed- characters who had an outstandingly success- eral politics. As a result, I think he will be ful business career at very high levels. To run well remembered for having made a very ANM, as he did for a number of years, valuable contribution. brought him in contact with media proprie- I might just say in passing that I think he tors and the like, and they are not to be tri- also has a great deal to contribute in the fu- fled with, as we know. Then to be Chairman ture, because the combination of that practi- of the Hydro-Electric Corporation in Tasma- cal business success with success at very nia is probably about as high as you can get. high levels in politics is unique. I suppose as That is public service royalty! The future of we all get older we are more attracted to this Tasmania can often turn on decisions made proposition, but there is absolutely no reason by the HEC. I would say that you only get to why someone of Brian’s age and level of that level if you are very highly regarded. So, fitness—I used to come across him running before Brian came here he had pretty much around the block in Kingston—should not be the perfect credentials, and certainly on our able to turn each of those attributes into very side of politics we not only rejoice when we important assets for the business community. have people like Brian Gibson, we also often I very much hope that he will be in a position bemoan the fact that we do not have more to continue not only to enjoy a retirement of people of that calibre. sorts but also to add value to the community, I think what Brian did was to bring a skill as he has for so many years, as his recogni- set to a whole range of issues that really did tion in the Order of Australia clearly ac- add value to the parliamentary process. It is knowledges. one of the great tragedies that Brian was cut I have very much enjoyed our friendship. I down in the prime of his political career. was delighted to be able to go down to Tas- That is part and parcel of the vicissitudes of mania to join in a farewell for Brian. I did politics. But the area in which he was a par- that because I have a particular affection and liamentary secretary was one in which he regard for Brian, and not just as a very de- was uniquely well qualified. I know even cent and civilised human being. There are a after he left that job, he continued to remain few of those around, I suppose, although not passionately interested in a whole range of all that many; nonetheless, Brian has a lot business and financial issues where he would more going for him than that. That is why it know things instinctively that most of us was with a great deal of sadness that I saw would never have come across. He would him cut down in the prime of his political have to tell me and others just what was go- career. I have always seen him as someone ing on in the real world. It is really a demon- who really does have a lot to offer. stration of how absolutely invaluable it is to have had that first-hand experience. If you So, Brian, all the best for the future and are a good lawyer, you can read your brief. thank you for all you have done. You have We know that. That will take you a fair way, been a great supporter of our side of politics, but there is no substitute for that hands-on as has Jocelyn, of course. You are two people experience. of very real stature who have served both your state and your country very well indeed. Senator Boswell—I’ve been telling you that for years. Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— Leader of the National Party of Australia in Senator ALSTON—My friend down the Senate and Parliamentary Secretary to here has been giving me regular lectures the Minister for Transport and Regional about how it is all very well to be a flash city Services) (5.36 p.m.)—Today Tasmania loses Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 221 two of its finest. It is going to be Tasmania’s The dignity with which you exited the loss. Senator Gibson and former Senator front bench will go down as one of the high- Newman have both been very strong fighters lights of your career. A lesser person could for the smallest state, Tasmania; I think Tas- have said, ‘That is enough. I have had a gut mania is going to miss their representations full. You can go and do it itself now.’ But and contributions, particularly those made in you did not; you knuckled down and made a cabinet. considerable contribution. Some of the Jocelyn Newman came into the Senate things that have happened in Tasmania, such after me, but I shared the front bench with as the subsidies that go into the island, would her for some time. I got to know her very make Jack McEwen blush. well and I found her to be an absolutely de- Senator Gibson—That is good for holi- lightful lady. We sat together on the front days bench for two years. She is a solicitor, a bar- Senator BOSWELL—It is good for holi- rister and a great achiever. She achieved well days. I think you would have been straining for her state. I ran into her coming back from your dry credentials to explain some of the Tasmania the other day and we got talking subsidies that go into that island, Senator. about retirement. She told me then that she But good luck to you. You are someone who would be retiring to Canberra where she I have associated with in the corridors. You would spend a lot of her time with her fam- have always been a great, friendly person. I ily. Some of her grandchildren live in Can- wish you and your wife a long and happy berra. I think another son of hers lives in retirement. I hope you can get down to the Queensland. Living on the mainland will channel in Tasmania, go around that beauti- mean she is certainly closer to her family. ful little island and have a great time. In the valedictory today we take the op- Senator PATTERSON (Victoria—Min- portunity of wishing her a very happy re- ister for Health and Ageing) (5.41 p.m.)—In tirement. It was a sad occasion when we had her own inimitable way Jocelyn Newman the condolence for her husband. I know departed the Senate with dignity and distinc- through personal experience how much she tion. I was fortunate that Madam President would have gone through on that occasion. I had the capacity to sit me next to Jocelyn hope she has a very long and happy retire- Newman in Old Parliament House when I ment and that she can spend some time with was a new senator. As you would have pre- those beautiful little girls that we used to see dicted, she took me under her wing and every year on her Christmas cards. She is so mentored and advised me. What better men- proud of them. Yesterday we saw some of tor could a tyro senator have had than them at the opening of parliament. Let me Jocelyn Newman. Not only was she my say to Jocelyn. ‘Good luck and have a very mentor but she has been a great role model happy retirement.’ and, more importantly, a very good friend. My friend Brian Gibson and I came from Jocelyn Newman has trodden the political opposite ends of town. Brian came from the stage, and her performance in that role has big end of town and I came from the small been first class. She did so without being end of town. I always thought that Brian’s tempted by the lure of publicity—communi- contributions on economics were a little on cating with the public where necessary but the dry side. He set the standard on the dry working quietly and very effectively without side. Today he listed his achievements in the the need for personal accolades. She is a real Senate which were numerous. I suppose he role model for many women who come into was like a duck which is all calm on the sur- this place. face but swimming like mad underneath. You achieved a lot and you put that on the record She came into the Senate in 1986 and in today. Your views on the economy and your her maiden speech paid tribute to her hus- contributions to the Senate and the commit- band, Kevin. There are few Australian cou- ples who have given so much to Australia tee system are on the record. through their public service. Kevin served 222 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Australia first as an Army officer, including The support and advice that Kevin was active service in Malaya and Vietnam, and able to give her as a cabinet minister was then spent eight years as a federal minister invaluable. We would often look up into the before having to resign owing to ill health. gallery during question time and see him While he was in the Army Jocelyn reared watching her with great pride—and I think two children and experienced the ups and sometimes, most probably, trepidation. It downs of being an Army wife. This experi- was of course a terrible blow to her when ence made her a tireless advocate on issues Kevin died on 17 June 1999. He had been ill affecting defence personnel and their fami- for some time, but he never complained. I lies, an issue that she pursued throughout her still remember fondly my visits to their home parliamentary career. She practised as a fam- in Tasmania and his typical activity of pro- ily lawyer, founded two women’s shelters, viding visitors—me in particular—with a was a farmer and ran a number of different glass of hot Milo, and so he became known small businesses. to me as my Milo man. I know that his death When she came into parliament she dealt Jocelyn a dreadful blow. brought with her, as many of us on this side The toll of public life can sometimes be do, a wealth of experience in a broad range almost too great to bear, and surely this must of areas. This experience formed much of have been one of the times that Jocelyn what she sought to do as a senator. As has thought that toll was too great. She had gone been mentioned today, she said in her to England to negotiate a reciprocal social maiden speech that only two other women security agreement with Great Britain. had followed their husbands into federal Kevin’s condition worsened while she was parliament. It is, as Senator Faulkner men- away, and so she cut short her trip and re- tioned, very rare. She had not been in the turned home. His funeral was held at the Senate long when she was appointed as a chapel at Duntroon. It was a wonderful trib- shadow minister. From there she went from ute to the wonderful life of a man who had a strength to strength. It would be remiss of me distinguished military and parliamentary life not to mention the challenges she faced dur- and who was a wonderful family man. ing this time. A lesser mortal would have packed it in— We all remember the very tough test she but not Jocelyn. Again, with the great cour- faced when confronted with breast cancer. I age and determination that we had come to will never forget the press conference she expect of her, she faced up to the responsi- called to say she was stepping down from the bilities of her ministerial office, despite the shadow ministry in order to have treatment. profound personal loss that she had experi- It was a sign of the respect in which she was enced. As a minister, she served in a number held in the press gallery that there was hardly of portfolios: Minister for Social Security, a dry eye among the normally tough opera- Minister for Family and Community Serv- tors behind those microphones and cameras. ices and Minister Assisting the Prime Min- As if one challenge was not enough, it was ister for the Status of Women. Time does not not long before she had to face the second permit me to speak about her various challenge of cancer and very drastic treat- achievements in those portfolios; I just want ment which left her with side effects that to mention a few. could have been enough to lead most to think She tackled the issue of social security that the demands of public life were too fraud and overpayment and was able to save much and it would be better to bow out. an enormous amount of money in that first Anyone who knows Jocelyn Newman would year. I would stand to be corrected, but I know that this was not an option for her and, think it was something like $47 million a with her typical grit and determination, we week, a huge saving in ensuring that only saw her overcome both those challenges and those people who were eligible for social resume a position in the shadow ministry and security received it. I visited social security then be appointed a cabinet minister in 1996. offices with her. You could see the look of amazement on the faces of some of those Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 223 officers at the desk when she would walk up Her legacy as a senator and a minister has to them and say, ‘If you were a minister, been enormous. She will be missed in this what would you do?’ People would make place, and I wish her well in her ‘retire- suggestions and I saw Jocelyn Newman fol- ment’—a misnomer, I am sure, as she al- low those through, taking advice from the ready has some projects in train. I am sure people at the coalface. that the children of Cambodia who are suf- I opened a Centrelink office for her. Pre- fering from craniofacial birth defects will viously, social security offices had looked benefit from her efforts—and woe betide any like something out of the gulag—grey paint, minister or NGO who ignores her lobbying. security locks everywhere—and there were a She has already lobbied me, I have to say, huge number of instances of people kicking when I was Parliamentary Secretary to the in social security windows and of threatening Minister for Foreign Affairs. the staff. Jocelyn believed that the clients I thank Jocelyn for the role model she has ought to be treated in an appropriate way. been to other women and, on a personal note, She opened up the offices, introduced a pro- I thank her for her friendship and advice. I cess of appointments for clients and had se- know that her son, her daughter, her ex- curity taken away. There was a lot of con- tended family and her granddaughters will be cern, obviously, from officers at the time. I glad to have their mother and grandmother went to visit the office in Dandenong; I think back with them and to have more of her time it was the first to have such changes made. and attention—and I thank them for lending Obviously, there was a totally different at- her to us for so long. She said in her maiden mosphere there, and the incident rate went speech: down as well. Jocelyn had a view that people ... the example which my husband set of service ought to be treated appropriately and that to his electorate, his State and his country will be they would behave in the way in which they always before me. I hope I can one day claim the were treated. Her faith in people was sup- love and respect which his constituents came to ported by the response she got from the cli- hold for him. ents of social security. All I can say is: Jocelyn, you can. Senator Newman also fought hard—and, Senator Gibson’s announcement caught as Senator Alston has indicated, I am sure me a bit short and I am not as prepared. I did she fought very hard in cabinet—to bring in not realise that you had had a farewell al- a carers payment for the carers of profoundly ready, Senator Gibson. I have not known disabled children. This would be an example Senator Gibson for as long as I have known of why it is important to have women in Senator Newman. I have not sat next to him. cabinet, because I am sure that the view held I think one thing we can say is that Senator previously was that you looked after children Gibson has shown us that you do not have to until they were 16 and it really did not matter be a bullyboy, you do not have to shout what situation they were in. She fought very across the chamber; that you can express hard to ensure that people who have pro- your point of view very clearly without the foundly disabled children receive support. tactics that some of us resort to in this place. She initiated and undertook the planning Senator Conroy is nodding. The best thing for the foundations of our welfare reform that Senator Conroy could do is to take a leaf program—a major pathway forward for our out of Senator Gibson’s book. If he were to social security system committed to finding behave like Senator Gibson, one day we the right balance between incentives, obliga- might see him rise up and even move to be tions and assistance. The ongoing reforms Leader of the Opposition. entitled Australians Working Together will The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT see more people able to achieve independ- (Senator Hogg)—Order! You should not be ence and more families with jobs and assist reflecting on honourable senators. people in becoming self-reliant and contrib- Senator PATTERSON—Senator Gibson ute to family life. I could go on, but time is a perfect example to all those young does not permit me to. senators here that you can actually achieve a 224 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 great deal. He came, as Senator Alston has acknowledge that she argued those goals said, with a huge background in business, very consistently over the period of time that and he used that to best effect. He dealt with followed. I want to reflect on one of her the issue of his demise as a parliamentary comments in her first speech—and I know secretary with great dignity. We have a lot to Senator Patterson made reference to her first thank him for. We wish him and his wife speech—which was to look after those who well in their retirement—but I am sure, like could not look after themselves. That is how Jocelyn Newman’s, it will be a very active she put it. But she also counselled against retirement. Congratulations, Brian; I will large government expenditures. She referred miss you enormously. back to Dame Enid Lyons and her first Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- speech—something like 43 years earlier—in tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) which Dame Enid also spoke to these (5.51 p.m.)—On behalf of the Australian themes. Senator Newman really did take up Democrats, I too would like to wish both the torch of Dame Enid Lyons and subse- Jocelyn Newman, former senator, and Sena- quently dedicated herself to spending many tor Brian Gibson well in their retirement. years reshaping Australia’s social security Senator Gibson—as I think Senator Patterson system. Like Senator Faulkner, I have to ac- has said particularly well—you are clearly knowledge that my party did not always held in high esteem by all parties in this agree with some of the proposals put forward chamber. Certainly I echo the sentiments by Senator Newman on behalf of the gov- expressed this afternoon by Senator Faulk- ernment—not always the direction or the ner, particularly in relation to your commit- nature of those changes—but we do not tee work—and I say that not because we do doubt either her consistency or her commit- not have other things to say about you but ment, or even, as has been remarked upon, because my colleague Senator Andrew the fact that she was a formidable opponent Murray wishes to say a few words about you on occasions. on behalf of the Democrats. I am going to There is no doubt, however, that she restrict my remarks this afternoon to the worked extremely hard and with great dedi- Democrats’ tribute to Jocelyn Newman. cation and sincerity. Her responsibilities as a As has been mentioned in this place, minister over a five-year period in the How- Jocelyn Newman gave many years of service ard government were large—in fact, ac- to this parliament and, of course, to the peo- counting at times for up to about 40 per cent ple of Australia, in addition to her responsi- of the federal government’s budget—so I bilities as a senator for Tasmania. As has was glad to hear Senator Alston acknowl- been remarked upon, together with her hus- edging publicly that she might have been a band, Senator Newman and the Newman formidable opponent in relation to the ERC. family have made quite a significant, in fact That is good to hear. She also assisted the perhaps an exceptional, contribution to po- Prime Minister in relation to the status of litical life in Australia over many years. women. My colleagues acknowledge that she stood firmly on the issue of the continuation Jocelyn Newman was a senator for 14 of Medicare funding for abortions. On the years, and I think everyone here would agree issue of government support for women’s that that is a long period of time to shoulder organisations, some of her decisions were the kind of workload she took on. I com- certainly not uncontroversial. I am sure many mend her and congratulate her on behalf of women, not only in this place but more gen- our party for her service, her commitment erally, acknowledged her contribution as, at and for her resilience. She ably represented times, the sole female member of a cabinet. I the people of her state, but we recognise that cannot imagine how difficult that may have she did a lot more: she took on large portfo- been on occasions but it was certainly an lio responsibilities and played a key role on extraordinary achievement. We want to get the national stage over many years. more women there. She took up her role in this place in 1986 and set out her main goals at that time. I do Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 225

Senator Newman’s experience in the fam- In my case, one of my first memories of ily law area and in her own community work Senator Newman was not as a senator in this in relation to women’s shelters, something place but as a staffer walking past her office that Senator Patterson has remarked upon as when she had that rather controversial poster. well, meant that she knew—I have no doubt I wanted to check that I had the wording of it that she understood—the essential impor- right, and I found in the files that in 1992 the tance of those services for women and their Herald Sun reported that, on one occasion, children. The Democrats do recognise the she was asked by Parliament House authori- work that Senator Newman did in encour- ties to remove that particular poster from her aging Australian businesses to open up their office window. You may remember that it workplaces and their premises to people who was a woman with a smoking pistol under have disabilities. She was also integral in the caption ‘So many men; so few bullets’. establishing the Prime Minister’s Gold But no doubt Jocelyn Newman found many Medal Access Awards, which honour large more effective, and clearly less lethal, ways and small businesses that have recognised to deal with some of her parliamentary col- that it does make good business to cater for leagues and did so successfully for many the almost one in five Australians with years. Senator Patterson has outlined some of physical, intellectual or other disabilities. the work that she will continue to do, so I This program was not about commercial have no doubt that she will continue her ad- gain, charity or corporate philanthropy; it vocacy for important causes in the coming recognised that businesses benefit from tak- years. On behalf of my party, I wish her and ing an inclusive approach to people with dis- her family well. abilities, as employees and customers. That Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— is certainly going to be a legacy of Senator Minister for Justice and Customs) (5.58 Newman. We hope that her work will be p.m.)—Today the Senate marks the departure continued on and that even better changes of two senators—both from Tasmania, coin- can be introduced. cidentally—who have made a formidable I also acknowledge that Senator Newman contribution not only to the Senate and par- was committed to the Partnerships Against liament of this country but also to their state Domestic Violence program. Again, we trust and to Australia. that the government will continue to support Firstly, I will refer to Jocelyn Newman. I and extend Senator Newman’s support of will keep my remarks brief so that others can this program and her efforts on behalf of all have an opportunity to comment. In talking women, including the women and their chil- about Jocelyn Newman I think of a steel dren who have recently arrived on these hand in a velvet glove. I hope she does not shores, many of whom have experienced take exception to that. Jocelyn Newman, severe trauma. Her work in that area is ac- both as senator for Tasmania and as a minis- knowledged. ter in her portfolio, exhibited great strength It has been said here today—and I know and argued whatever cause it was with great that it has been said many times—that force but nonetheless with grace and style. I Jocelyn Newman could be tough. The Tas- think that makes her quite memorable. I will manian Mercury called her one of the tough- add another dimension to that. On a day I est MPs in parliament. I suspect that she had spent campaigning with her in the recent to be. She managed her huge workload election in Scottsdale in Tasmania I saw an- alongside, as has been pointed out, some other side to Jocelyn Newman: not only significant health issues and family responsi- senator for Tasmania and minister of great bilities, and she did endure the loss of her note but a formidable campaigner. husband. Throughout that, we note that she There were a number of highlights during remained steadfastly committed to public life Jocelyn’s time as Minister for Family and and her constituents not only in Tasmania but Community Services. Briefly, they include throughout Australia. the establishment of Centrelink, the restora- tion of public confidence in the administra- 226 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 tion of the social security system and the great tribute to Brian’s skills, not only in his placing of welfare reform on the agenda and knowledge of the subject matter but in the setting the way to a completely different ap- way he dealt with people. That was a credit proach to welfare reform in this country. I to you, Brian. We are going to sorely miss think for that she will be remembered and you and the talents and experience that you remembered well. Jocelyn and her late hus- brought. You still have a great deal to offer band Kevin were a remarkable partnership. this country. Hopefully this is not just a They made history by the fact that Kevin question of you retiring and doing nothing. I was a former cabinet minister in the Fraser cannot imagine you doing that, though. I government and Jocelyn a cabinet minister in think we will be seeing you making a great the Howard government. I do not think there contribution to Australia in other roles. had ever before in this country been a hus- Caroline and I both wish you and Pauline all band and wife team of that sort. I wish the best in life after politics. Jocelyn well in her retirement. I know how Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (6.04 fond she is of her grandchildren and I hope p.m.)—I, too, would like to join colleagues in that it will afford her an opportunity to see this valedictory to two Tasmanian senators. more of those grandchildren whom she loves As has been said, Jocelyn Newman had an dearly. From my own personal association enormous workload. She also suffered a per- with Jocelyn I have learnt a lot and I want to sonal run in health and the death of Kevin. I acknowledge the great job that Jocelyn knew Kevin pretty well. He was elected in Newman has done as a senator in this cham- 1975. I take this opportunity of wishing ber. Jocelyn all the best in her retirement. The other senator that we farewell is Brian Brian Gibson and I have known each Gibson, who came in in the class of 1993, of other for a few years—before politics as which I too was a member. There is an ex- well, in the trade union movement and when pression ‘all form and no substance’. With you were at ANM and in the HEC. I have Brian Gibson it is a question of a great deal had enormous respect for you over that pe- of substance. We soon saw that when Brian riod of time, for your integrity and your no- brought to the Senate and to the coalition his nonsense affability, and the way that you experience in hydro-electrics, forestry and were able to get things done. I know it must business. This was exhibited during his time have hurt you to say what you did today at as Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. I the beginning of your speech in the address think it was a great shame that Brian was not in reply. It had to be said. I know whatever able to contribute further in relation to you do in future you will certainly have Treasury and finance and business matters in Tasmania up there in the forefront of what the executive arm of government. I think we you do for the benefit of the people of our would have seen a great contribution from state. It needed to be said: we do have a cri- Brian in that role. I also want to acknowl- sis and we have got to meet that. edge that there is always a partnership in these things. I know it only too well in my In regard to your staff, I might just men- own life. I want to acknowledge Pauline, tion that Sandra Bowden came over to your Brian’s wife, who is in the chamber today. staff from Shirley Walters. It was always a You really cannot do these things alone. great thing to go to your office. There she was, the face of what you would like to pres- One thing which I thought was quite a ent. One would feel a welcoming, glowing daunting task which Brian undertook was the acceptance on entering the office. chairmanship of the tax reform task force. I remember the travelling around and the con- I do wish you well. I know you will have sultation that went on during those times. things to do and I am sure that Pauline will Looking back, 1997 and 1998 seem years have plenty of things for you to do in your ago, but it was so important for the tax re- retirement. Please accept my sincere con- form of this government to put that in place gratulations on what you have achieved in and to get that squared away. That was a your time in the Senate and the behind-the- scenes work that you have done. That is the Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 227 way to get things done, as you know. You of the newly formed Fraser Liberal govern- have contributed greatly to setting the stan- ment, Tasmania benefited from the Tasma- dards that are necessary in business and nian Freight Equalisation Scheme, a scheme commerce in this country. Australian busi- that has done a lot for employment in my ness is the better for what you have done. home state. When Senator Newman became The Senate, unfortunately, will be the loser a cabinet minister when the Howard gov- by your retirement. I wish you all the best. ernment was elected, we got the Bass Strait Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special Passenger Vehicle Equalisation Scheme, Minister of State) (6.08 p.m.)—This evening which has also done a lot for employment in we farewell two Tasmanian Liberal senators my home state of Tasmania. Together, they and pay tribute to the great contribution that basically devoted a quarter of a century to they have made to Senator Calvert’s and my public life in this country. They supported home state of Tasmania and to the nation. each other and they made a great contribu- The Hon. Jocelyn Newman has a wealth of tion. Others have mentioned Senator New- qualities which she freely contributed to our man’s contribution to welfare reform. I note nation. To coin a phrase: she was a woman it and agree with the comments that my col- for all seasons. In her early days, she was leagues have made in that regard. Jocelyn Miss University. I understand that was at Newman will be sorely missed by all of us. Melbourne University. She was a wife, Let me turn to my colleague for a few mother, lawyer, women’s shelter pioneer, more days, Senator the Hon. Brian Gibson. farmer, tourist operator, senator, shadow How do you describe him? Talented, consid- minister and, of course, cabinet minister. Her ered and understated. He is a classic case of qualities were manifold. They were strength, sacrifice to be of service to the nation. So resilience, vision, energy and a sense of hu- often we hear in the popular media that those mour, together with a determination that was of us who try to make a contribution in this usually delivered with a withering frown and place do it for the purpose of feathering our a few words. And, yes, I was a recipient of own nests. Senator Gibson made a sacrifice. those frowns from time to time—of course, I am sure that his wife Pauline, whom I rec- always well deserved. ognise in the gallery, would acknowledge It has been a privilege to observe all those that he made a sacrifice personally—of qualities and work with this truly remarkable which she undoubtedly bore some brunt— woman. I am sure she would not mind my but also financially. There is no doubt that also saying that she is a remarkable lady. She Senator Gibson could have continued in the has advanced the cause of women in public private sector, commanding a lot greater in- life considerably. She treasured her role as come than he received as a senator, but he wife, mother and grandmother, as witnessed made the sacrifice willingly because he by the Christmas cards that she sent out. She wanted to make a contribution to this nation. would speak from time to time of her role as As has been commented on by others, he an Army wife when husband Kevin was was highly regarded by the business com- away and times were uncertain. But she al- munity. Brian championed industry and ways revelled in that role of being mother business needs, not because of some belief in and wife and combined it superbly with her the selfish pursuit of wealth but because of public life. She saw no conflict and she com- the social benefits that could be derived from bined the roles very admirably. sound businesses delivering employment and The Newman team of Kevin and Jocelyn economic benefits to the community at large. made a great contribution. They were nearly Most people would not know of Senator a tag team. Shortly after Kevin Newman re- Gibson’s involvement with St Vincent de tired from the House of Representatives rep- Paul and that he helped those in need in the resenting the seat of Bass, Jocelyn Newman city of Hobart by handing out soup and food became Senator Newman representing Tas- at Louis’s food van in the evenings. He has mania. It is interesting to note that, when an undoubted business talent combined Kevin Newman was a member and minister greatly with that willingness to go out and 228 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 serve the community in the way that St Vin- to public life and, indeed, to the Liberal cent de Paul does so well. Party. Senator Gibson’s address-in-reply Senator Gibson’s other areas of expertise speech, like all his speeches, was yet again were—when I say ‘were’ I apologise; still considered and measured, and highlighted are and, I am sure, will remain—forestry, some very real policy issues that need ad- resource management, manufacturing, corpo- dressing. rate law reform and tax reform. They are all The Hon. Jocelyn Newman and Senator areas in which he made substantial contribu- the Hon. Brian Gibson leave this place and tions while in this chamber. Others have al- public life with the warm affection of their ready mentioned, and I simply wish to note, colleagues, the Liberal Party, and the Tasma- the very important role he played as chair- nian and Australian people. I trust that they man of the tax reform task force, which was will enjoy their deserved retirement, but I so well chaired and which helped deliver so expect them both to pop up again in service many of the benefits that we as a nation now to this nation. On a personal note, Michelle enjoy under the new tax system. I think it and I wish them both good health and en- would have been very pleasing for Senator joyment of their lovely families. God bless. Gibson to see not only the new tax system (Time expired) implemented but also the government that Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (6.18 introduced it being re-elected while a very p.m.)—It is certainly a sad day for Tasmania negative scare campaign was run against it. when I have to stand here and say farewell to Senator Gibson was a very talented par- two fine Tasmanian senators. To do credit to liamentary secretary whose short tenure, un- them in 10 minutes is not quite fair, but I fortunately, reminds us of the vagaries of suppose when one looks back on what has politics. What happened to Senator Gibson been said today one can see that there has was not deserved and, unfortunately, it is been a fair summation already of the exper- those sorts of events that dissuade a lot of tise of both of them. So I will be as brief as I good people from entering politics. I remem- can. bered the incident, and I recalled that I made It does not seem like 13 years that I have some comments at the time. I know that it is been working with Jocelyn Newman as a bad form to quote yourself, but I said it at the colleague. As has been said, Jocelyn was a time and I still mean it now, some 5½ years woman of many talents, and arguably the later: most senior Tasmanian politician of all If you have a set of guidelines that my friend time—having had control at one stage of 40 and colleague Senator Brian Gibson falls foul of, per cent of the Australian Commonwealth you have to ask the question: are the guidelines budget. That gives some idea of the work- right? I do not know a more honourable person load that she had, and the reforms that she than Senator Brian Gibson. I felt the sadness of made. References made to her work by peo- his announcement yesterday very personally. I am delighted that the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) ple on the other side tonight are a fair indi- has announced a review of those guidelines, cation of how respected Jocelyn Newman which have led to the ridiculous situation where a was. I remember her reflecting to me about man who has done nothing dishonest, who does farming. She said, ‘Don’t talk to me about not have a single ounce of mean spirit in his body, farming; I used to go out there feeding my finds himself in the position of having to resign. pigs in my gumboots.’ That that same person The nation of Australia is, in fact, the poorer could be hobnobbing with leaders around the for that quite silly pursuit of Senator Gibson world and putting Australia’s point of view in relation to those matters. Nevertheless, just shows the wide breadth of talent and Senator Gibson made a fantastic contribution ability that Jocelyn had. during that term as parliamentary secretary, As I said earlier, it is a sad loss. My first as a chair of committees in this place and memories of Jocelyn are from 1987 when I through his general contributions. was first drafted into the Liberal Party as No. I trust that Senator Gibson’s talents will 5 on the Senate ticket and we were travelling still be available to Tasmania and Australia, around Tasmania in a bus. I was very humble Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 229 to be with people like Brian Archer, John was trotting past on her horse. I did not know Watson, Shirley Walters and Jocelyn New- Brian from a bar of soap. I was sitting on the man. I got to drive the bus. Of course, Brian plane one day coming to Canberra and he Archer and John Watson got to sit down the introduced himself to me. Little did I know back, and Shirley Walters and Jocelyn New- that what he was doing was bleeding me to man got to argue about who sat up the front. find out what all this Senate business was I have to say that Jocelyn usually won. I re- about because he had made up his mind that member one day driving through Launceston that was where he wanted to come—and he when Shirley said, ‘Go left at the next turn,’ did. I think we heard this morning, from and Jocelyn said, ‘Go right at the next turn,’ what Brian said, just what a practical busi- so I went straight ahead and they both tack- nessman he was. He knows exactly what led me and said, ‘What did you do that for?’ should be done and where we should be go- I said, ‘When you make up your minds about ing. Given both the quotes he made this which way we are going to go, we’ll con- morning from the ACIL report and from tinue our journey.’ That was my first glimpse Alan Wood in the Australian—this is really of what strong politicians, particularly on the only a dream—if we could put Brian with female side, we had in Tasmania. I do not half a dozen decent businessmen in charge of think my view on that has changed since Tasmania for a couple of years without any then. Shirley Walters, in her own way, was obstruction from some of these minority quite tough as well. They had one driving groups around the place, I am sure we would force and it was this: whatever we did had to find that the balance sheet for Tasmania be for Tasmania. In later years, Jocelyn was a would improve very quickly over the next champion not only for Tasmania but also for two or three years, because that is the sort of women and for good government in Austra- calibre of businessman he is. We have al- lia. There is no doubt that there has never ready talked about his forestry background been a finer cabinet minister from Tasmania and the fact that for his work in that area he than Jocelyn Newman. was awarded an AM. Being the chief execu- I understand that in her retirement Jocelyn tive of ANM for nine years— is here in Canberra, busily tackling her gar- Senator Harradine—OA, isn’t it? den. Two loves of her life are her garden and Senator CALVERT—I have got here Or- her grandchildren. I am pleased to see that der of Australia, yes, or AM. A member of she is retired in Canberra with both of those. the Order of Australia, to be perfectly cor- She has gone from cracking down on welfare rect. Looking at Brian’s first speech in this cheats to cracking down on weeds in her place, he said: garden, and I wish her well in that respect. I Being responsible for managing a manufacturing am sure she will do that with just as much company is a good position from which to ob- vigour and enthusiasm as she did when she serve and understand the Australian economy ... was in the very senior position she held. Brian certainly did that, and he certainly I think we all know what a great team she brought that expertise into this place. The and Kevin were and what they did for Tas- significance of his victory was not lost on the mania. They will be legends in the Liberal leadership and we know that he was given Party for their support of that party and for charge of the ANTS package and all that what they have done for Tasmania. I do not went with it. I recall seeing Brian’s latest really think that we can put into words how piece of work, the final report on mass mar- much the loss of Jocelyn is going to be. I keted tax schemes that he has just completed. wish her well. I am sure that we will see a lot I know how hard you worked on that, Brian. more of Jocelyn one way or another and I I just hope that the government takes that on hope everything goes well. board and uses it as it should be used. As far as my good friend Brian Gibson One Senate insider—I heard this from the goes, I think I knew Pauline before I knew Leader of the Opposition here today—de- Brian because Pauline used to ride a horse scribed Brian as one of the Senate’s finest next door and I got to know her when she committee chairs. A senior staffer described 230 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 his style as even-handed. He is not a shouter your colleagues in this place think of you, or screamer; he is quiet and yet very effec- Brian. (Time expired) tive. We have heard those things said today. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT The 660-odd submissions you had on the (Senator Knowles)—Before I call Senator ANTS package must have been quite hor- Conroy, I acknowledge in the gallery former rific, Brian. I think it was only your cool senator Warwick Parer and welcome you head and commonsense that prevailed. Rid- back among your friends. ing shotgun over that coalition tax reform system was a great effort and helped us out Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.28 considerably. p.m.)—I thank Senator Calvert for indulging me this afternoon. I have known Brian for Another commentator in this place said about six years and, much to Brian’s horror, that often the love of golf has provided fer- he discovered that not only do we share tile ground for cross-party relationships and many private interests but also public policy Brian has a fine touch in building up the nec- interests. Brian found that I turned up on all essary groundwork using common interests. the committees he was on. It was both an From personal experience, I can tell you that honour and a pleasure to serve with Brian. when Brian retires one thing he could possi- He has been a true gentleman—he always bly do is take up being a professional golf conducted himself with decency, honour and coach because his golfing ability in recent integrity. As has been noted, you served in weeks has been quite good. In fact, I expect the executive, and you should be proud of to see his handicap reducing very quickly that, Brian. Much that you started off you over the next few months. were not there to sign off, but you should be Another colleague recently said that Brian proud that they bear your mark and Australia Gibson often jokes that he is trying to make a is the better for much of it. decent senator out of Stephen Conroy. We Politics is rarely fair and often cruel, and might hear about that a bit later on. your resignation was Australia’s loss. Brian I think one of the biggest losers in Tasma- and I served on many committees together. nia with Brian’s retirement will be the busi- The GST committee has drawn some com- ness community. Your relationship with the ment from both you and some of your col- business community in Hobart and all round leagues. You did make some reflection on Tasmania, your fundraising efforts for the some members of those committees, and it is party and just being there are things that will a tragedy that you have broken with many of be very difficult to replace. Your views are the qualities we have described by talking shared by like colleagues on the Modest about former Senator O’Chee like that in his Members, and you are quite a significant absence. We also shared the inquiry on mass contributor to that group. marketed schemes and I am proud of the fact Time is running short but, on behalf of Jill that I signed off on your report, Senator Gib- and myself, I voice our best wishes. I have son. already said a dozen times what great friends Many of you know Brian in the role of a you have become. We will see a lot more of friend and in all the ways I have described. I, you and I will be able to tell you what is unfortunately, knew him occasionally in an- happening in this place. A senator who may other way. Some of the highlights of our be speaking later today said: committee work together were when he It is trite to say that every senator brings some- closed down meetings in which I was thing to the Senate, but Brian Gibson brought speaking. He gagged me on a number of oc- qualities and abilities and a background which is casions. He even expunged Hansard of my not shared by many. In my view, his loss will be contributions at one stage. And just in case noticeable and will reduce the quality of the fo- you think that was as far as Brian was pre- rums that he operated in. pared to go, he even struck me, not once but That colleague might be talking later in the twice, in the Senate estimates committee. debate. That is a fair indication of just what But I forgive him for all of that. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 231

Brian and I share a number of private pur- I want to turn now to my good friend and suits as well. I look forward to the opportu- colleague Senator Gibson. I notice someone nity to share a slope at Mt Buller or hope- said ‘Senator Gibson AM’. I have to tell you fully, as we both would wish, in Whistler or I do not know much about the a.m., because in some of those Canadian resorts. And I Brian gets up far earlier than I do and runs hope some day we can share a round of for miles, but I did know him extensively in golf—one of my other passions. To both the p.m., which was after lunch! Senator Brian and Pauline, from Paula and me: we Gibson has been one of my great friends in will miss you. this parliament. I served with him on a num- Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) ber of committees. Back when Brian first (6.31 p.m.)—My contribution will be some- came here, we were involved in economics what brief, because much has been said and I and he eventually took over the economics do not think it needs to be repeated ad nau- committee that I chaired for some five or six seam. I am also very pleased to be following years. Indeed, through all the last years that Senator Conroy, because Senator Gibson and we were in opposition prior to coming into I followed him for months and months on the government, the concentration was on eco- GST committee, and if it was not for Senator nomics and tax reform. Gibson I do not think I would have stayed I remember Senator Gibson’s tax task sane. It was very appropriate that Senator force, which I happened to be on because I Conroy should express those comments just was chair of the economics committee, and prior to my speaking. those 660 submissions, the people we met Senator Calvert said it is a sad day for and the way that we actually shaped what Tasmania that we have lost two senators, and was to become the policy. I know that if we we are speaking about two senators on this had been able to get through parliament all occasion. In fact, it is more than a loss for of the things Brian would have liked to have Tasmania, because it is a loss particularly for had in the ANTS package, we would have the Liberal Party and also for this whole had a much better system than we have now, chamber. I did not know Senator Newman as because Brian worked on it extensively and well as I have known Senator Gibson, but all every time he made a decision relating to the time that I have been here I have known taxation he did it with everybody’s interests the contributions that both she and her hus- in mind. It was never what was best for a band, Kevin, made to the Liberal Party and certain section of the community; Brian al- to the parliament, both serving as ministers ways looked at things in a fair way. The rec- and both representing Tasmania in a way that ommendations that came out of that tax task they could be proud of. I know that Tasmani- force resulted from nine or 10 months of ans were proud of the way the Newmans concentrated effort. Then, once we won the represented Tasmania to their very fullest election, we were part of the GST inquiry, ability. which meant another 10 months, and we went all over Australia on that committee. I am very sorry that Jocelyn is not here today; I think she may be around the place I think Brian’s lasting legacy to this place somewhere but she is not in the chamber. is the outstanding work that he put in to the Senator Newman can be very proud of her economic status of the nation, to taxation contribution to this chamber. Certainly we in reform, to the context with business. He was the Liberal Party owe her a great debt of a dynamic parliamentary secretary, always gratitude because of the work that she did, wanting to change things for the better, al- initially as the only woman member of the ways trying to improve the system we had, to first Howard cabinet. She was someone who make it better, to make it easier for business, made a significant contribution. I want to to make it more fair and equitable. That was place on record my appreciation of what his sole aim. I think that probably tells us Senator Newman did for this chamber, for about the nature of Brian Gibson, who came this parliament, for this government and for to this place after a lifetime in business. He the Liberal Party as a whole. came here with the experience of knowing 232 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 that one had to take some hard knocks during tremely hard, and they both have made im- life. Life’s experience makes people better portant contributions to the Senate. I con- senators—I am quite sure of that. Brian, I sider it to be a great privilege to have been in think I am right in saying you were 55 or 56 the Senate at the same time as them and to when you came to this place? have them as colleagues. Senator Gibson—Yes. It has been said that Brian Gibson perhaps Senator FERGUSON—He had a whole has had an unfulfilled Senate career to some career and lifetime behind him before he degree. He came here with a very strong entered the Senate, and I think that experi- business background and certainly made an ence showed in every single decision he enormous contribution to the process of made while he was here and in the way he taxation reform, in a general way through the tried to influence us within the party. I am ANTS package and also through the business quite sure that Brian will never be recorded tax system. Those of us who believe that the by historians or the media as someone who taxation system needed to be reformed are made this outstanding contribution to the very much indebted to you, Brian, and all parliament, because he will not be remem- over Australia you find people who are bered for his speeches or startling comments. grateful that there was somebody like you All he ever did was work hard and try and who was able to bring clarity of thought to make sure that everything he did was im- the issues and to understand what was proving this place and the way that Austra- needed to improve our taxation system. lians can live. There are not many people I have known your brother-in-law, Bill who come to this chamber with only those Leaver, who was the president of the Kal- objects in mind. Certainly Senator Gibson goorlie South division of the Liberal Party did. for some considerable time. Bill Leaver lived He has been a great friend, and I am sure in Laverton, which is north-east of Kalgoor- he will remain a great friend. I have enjoyed lie, out on the edge of the desert, and he now his company. I know this will not be the last lives in South Perth. I must say that I was time we see him; we just will not see him somewhat surprised to find, when he first quite so regularly, which means I will not mentioned it to me, that you were his lose to him quite so often at golf—it will brother-in-law, because it seems a long way save me quite a bit! Pauline is also a golf from Laverton to Tasmania. Bill is a person enthusiast, and it probably should be put on who, like you, is a very strong supporter of the Hansard record that she lopped four the Liberal Party. Your wives are sisters, and strokes off her handicap last week. That Bill and you obviously do contribute very probably has not been in Hansard before. In much in your own ways to the cause of the the future, Pauline and Brian will have an Liberal Party. enormous chance to enjoy their life together, Jocelyn Newman is somebody who has something which the separation of parlia- always impressed me with the power of her mentary life does not allow people to do. intellect. Whenever I have engaged her, I Brian, both Anne and I wish you all the best have found her to be a very clear thinker, in retirement. I am sure retirement for you somebody who gets to the absolute core of a will be very busy. We look forward to seeing problem and deals with the heart of an issue. you many times in the future. May your fu- Jocelyn, along with Brian, brought consider- ture be a happy one. able grace and dignity to her role as a sena- Senator EGGLESTON (Western Aus- tor, and she did an outstanding job as the tralia) (6.37 p.m.)—I would like to make a Minister for Social Security, ensuring that few brief remarks about Brian Gibson and social security benefits went only to those Jocelyn Newman. In the time I have been in who really warranted them. She sought to the Senate, I have greatly admired both of simplify the system by making access more them as people who carried out their roles as streamlined and by emphasising that people senators with considerable grace and dignity. should get benefits according to what they They both are people who have worked ex- could do rather than what they could not do. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 233

Jocelyn’s great contribution has been to sim- monsense to ensure that practical and effec- plify and to reform our social security sys- tive recommendations came out of those and tem. other inquiries that I have not mentioned. I think both Brian and Jocelyn have left As I said, my closest association with nobody in doubt that they have worked very Senator Gibson has been in relation to the hard for Tasmania and have had the interests corporations and securities committee. Brian of Tasmania at heart. I join my colleagues in was deservedly appointed Parliamentary wishing them both well in their retirement. Secretary to the Treasurer with the election Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) of the first Howard government in March (6.41 p.m.)—I would like to join in this vale- 1996 and had responsibility for corporations dictory to my colleagues Senators Newman and securities and the Australian Securities and Gibson and to say how sorry I am to be Commission in that role. Having been ap- losing my colleague and friend Brian Gibson pointed chair of the corporations and securi- from this chamber. I am sorry both person- ties committee, I worked closely with him in ally, because we have worked together on relation to the committee’s consideration of many issues and several committees, and, the very positive initiatives that Brian was more importantly and more broadly, because putting forward to update, simplify and give I believe the Senate needs people within its a stronger economic focus—a more produc- ranks who can bring to its deliberations on tive focus—to the Corporations Law. issues and policies the life experience and There is no doubt that his expertise in that particular expertise in business and econom- field was of great benefit to the government, ics that Senator Gibson has brought to this and it was certainly a great loss to the gov- chamber. I certainly think the chamber is ernment in October 1996 and, I believe, quite going to be poorer for your departure in that unfair when his resignation occurred over a regard, Brian. perceived conflict of interest. The very fact From the remarks that we have heard of Senator Gibson’s resignation made it clear throughout this debate this afternoon, it is that the requirements laid down for ministers fair to say that Brian is certainly respected by at that time in relation to their private inter- all sides of this chamber. There is certainly ests were too stringent, and I think this was no doubt about that. I am very privileged to subsequently recognised in relation to other have worked with him, most closely in my ministers. Sadly, it was too late to ensure that position as Chairman of the parliamentary someone of Brian Gibson’s ability and ca- Joint Statutory Committee on Corporations pacity could remain in the ministry at that and Securities, on the Senate Economics time. I believe it was a loss to the govern- Committee and also as a substitute on the ment that he resigned from that position. Select Committee on a New Tax System. In However, as a consequence of his resig- each of those committees, Brian brought to nation, Senator Gibson became a member of bear his great knowledge and experience, to the Joint Committee on Corporations and the benefit of the deliberations of those Securities and has certainly been of immeas- committees and, ultimately, to the people urable assistance to me as chairman of the that he represents and to all Australians committee as we worked through the gov- through the work of this Senate. ernment’s very positive reform programs. Some of the inquiries on which we have Senator Murray interjecting— been involved together on the Senate Eco- Senator CHAPMAN—Sorry, Senator nomics Committee include the inquiry into Murray, I missed that interjection. the replacement reactor at Lucas Heights, an inquiry into the Australian Tax Office, and Senator Murray—I said he was a very the one on which Brian was recently the rowdy member. acting chair—the inquiry into mass marketed Senator CHAPMAN—Not at the meet- tax effective investment schemes. In each of ings I was present at. He very assiduously those inquiries, as in many others, he brought and very quietly made worthwhile points and to bear his great knowledge and plain com- made an enormous contribution to the work 234 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 of that committee. We have become very not believe would occur after 1975—and good, close friends, as have our wives, Sally Jocelyn regularly attended those reunion and Pauline. We share similar economic and dinners with Kevin. Even after Kevin’s re- social philosophies and have had regular af- tirement and her subsequent election as a ter-hours discussions, usually over a meal senator and then appointment as a minister, somewhere in Canberra, in relation to the Jocelyn continued to come to those dinners government’s progress in creating a more with Kevin prior to his passing. Kevin’s competitive, market oriented and, hence, death was a great loss to Jocelyn, but it cer- productive Australian economy to the benefit tainly did not deter her from the massive task of all Australians while maintaining decent of social welfare reform which she under- community standards. took as the Minister for Social Security. I I note that earlier in the day Senator Bos- believe she achieved great success as a cabi- well remarked that Senator Gibson was a bit net minister in the Howard government in too much on the dry side for him. Well, her responsibility for that portfolio and the Senator Gibson is certainly not too much on degree of reform that she was able to insti- the dry side for me. We are very much on all tute. fours with regard to our economic philoso- I believe her happy retirement has been phies. I will certainly miss those occasions well earned as a result of the service that she when we had those discussions as much as has given, particularly in that portfolio, over the formal contributions that he made many years in this place. I wish her well and through his expertise on the committee work look forward to seeing her as Kevin’s repre- that we shared. I believe that Senator Gibson sentative at our periodic ‘oncers’ reunion could certainly have contributed to the good dinners for many years to come. I wish both government of Australia for many years yet. former Senator Newman and my good friend But I am sure he, along with Pauline, will Brian Gibson all the best in their retirement obtain fulfilment in his new life away from from this place. I am sure that we will keep this place, and I wish him and Pauline all in touch and see each other from time to happiness in the future. As I think Senator time. Ferguson remarked, at least their golfing Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (6.49 handicaps will benefit from their time away p.m.)—Tonight I wish to support this vale- from this place. dictory and add my best wishes to my Tas- I have known former Senator Jocelyn manian Senate colleagues and wish them Newman much longer than I have known both well in their lives after politics. In the Senator Gibson. However, our respective case of my good friend Brian Gibson, sitting policy interests and area of work in this place next to me, I have difficulty in categorising meant that I did not work as closely with him as a politician—as a parliamentarian, Senator Newman as I have with Senator Gib- surely, but Brian never quite fitted the de- son. I first knew Senator Newman as the scription of a politician. This was mainly wife of my then House of Representatives because Brian was a person who sought colleague in the late 1970s and early 1980s, positive outcomes from all the parliamentary the late Kevin Newman. I worked closely processes he was involved in. In the end, with Kevin when he was the first federal perhaps it was the slowness of those proc- minister for youth affairs, among other port- esses that hastened his decision to retire and folios that he held. He appointed me to chair to apply his immense business talents else- a government members committee to assist where. He never believed that a great deal him in this work and I came to know Jocelyn could be achieved by attacking his parlia- quite well at that time. mentary opponents on the front pages of the Those of us who were elected in 1975, in- daily press or from seeking to be the centre cluding Kevin, instituted the so-called of spectacular headlines. That is probably the ‘oncers’ annual reunion dinner to celebrate reason that he is receiving such accolades our election and subsequent re-elections— tonight. which the Labor opposition at the time did Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 235

Brian came late to politics, being in his 1990s, Jocelyn provided a high level of lead- mid-50s when elected in 1993, but he ership within the coalition and her strong, brought with him an immense bank of expe- pragmatic approach, like Brian’s, will be rience, knowledge and wisdom from many missed. I know that Jocelyn has family inter- years at the forefront of industry. Brian and I ests which will fill more and more of her came from manufacturing backgrounds. His time in the future. I wish her happiness with was forestry and newsprint and mine was her family and in her future pursuits. textiles. He had been managing director of The retirements of Brian Gibson and the prestigious Australian Newsprint Mills Jocelyn Newman will leave a large gap in the during the 1980s, the National President of Tasmanian Senate team, but I take this op- the National Association of Forest Industry portunity of welcoming their replacements, from 1987 to 1991 and Chair of the Hydro- Richard Colbeck, who has taken up his new Electric Commission of Tasmania from 1989 job this week, and Guy Barnett, who will to 1993. These were positions where his arrive in March. They both have big shoes to abilities were valued and where he was able fill as they replace Senators Gibson and to contribute greatly to industry in Australia, Newman. Once again, I say thank you to particularly in Tasmania. Brian Gibson and Jocelyn Newman for their Brian Gibson continued to contribute at a outstanding contributions, especially in rep- high level in the Senate, where his commit- resenting Tasmania here in Canberra. I wish tee work was really quite outstanding. Un- them both very successful and happy futures fortunately his role as Parliamentary Secre- after politics. tary to the Treasurer was cut all too short. Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— But Brian’s contribution, particularly in the Minister for Finance and Administration) area of economics, and especially his contri- (6.54 p.m.)—I would like to take this oppor- bution to business tax reform, was quite out- tunity to pay tribute to the service of both standing. Brian is not the sort of person who Jocelyn Newman and Brian Gibson to this seeks accolades or public praise, so I will not place and, of course, to our great Liberal continue to list his achievements. Those who Party. I hope Jocelyn will forgive me if I fo- know Brian’s contribution readily acknowl- cus my remarks tonight on Senator Gibson. I edge his value to this parliament and to its know that Jocelyn has received great tribute work. I wish him every happiness and satis- tonight, and it was a privilege for me to serve faction in his pursuits after his retirement as a minister with her for the three years that from politics. we overlapped. I focus my remarks on My other Tasmanian Senate colleague Senator Gibson because we are both mem- who has opted to retire from the Senate, bers of the great class of ’93 that came into Jocelyn Newman, shares Brian Gibson’s the Senate in July of that year, which in- strengths of commitment to the task and an cludes the likes of Senator Chris Ellison and, ability to bring about positive outcomes from from the other side, Senator Chris Evans. I parliamentary involvement. Jocelyn entered think it was a pretty good class. I also share the Senate as the wife of distinguished for- with Brian—if I may call him that at this mer Liberal federal minister the late Kevin moment—the fact that we both were ap- Newman, and quickly made a mark in her pointed parliamentary secretaries in the first own right. Jocelyn’s strong representation of Howard government in March 1996. Our the interests of Tasmania and her standout careers certainly were parallel in those first period as Minister for Social Security few years after our entry into this place. stamped her contribution as a senator as Most regrettably, given that background, unique. Brian served only seven months on the Jocelyn also had a wide range of interests, frontbench of the government. That, for me, including protection of our built heritage and is one of the real disappointments of our six a special goal to improve the level of serv- years in government—that Senator Gibson ices to women at risk. Even though she was had the opportunity to serve on the front- slowed momentarily by ill health in the mid- bench for only that very limited time. That 236 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 really was tragic, in a sense, for the govern- than you. But the life of a party hack is much ment and for Senator Gibson. He was and is tougher than business, so I look a lot older a man of integrity and honour. He did what than you. We are certainly the same age ac- he believed to be the right thing at that time. cording to Gareth Evans. I cannot think of anything harder to do than I really do want to congratulate you, choosing to resign, having only just come Brian, on what you have contributed to both into government. It must have been incredi- the Senate and the Liberal Party. I am sorry bly hard and, at the time, he was showing the that your service to the government was not capacity to do a great job for the govern- longer, but it was as a result of your great ment. His loss was a great blow to the gov- honour and integrity that you chose the ernment, as will be his departure from the course you did. I wish you in particular and Senate at the end of next week. Jocelyn Newman all the best for what I hope Having served as Minister for Industry, will be a rewarding and successful post- Science and Resources for the last three parliamentary life. years, I note particularly the loss that will Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) occur as a result of the loss of Brian’s sub- (6.59 p.m.)—I too wish to join my colleagues stantial business experience. For one reason in this valedictory tribute to former Senator or another, the Senate is full of lawyers, Jocelyn Newman and to Senator Brian Gib- teachers, union officials and party hacks like son. To say farewell to Senator Gibson is a me. There are not too many who come with real shame for all of us. I think it is a sad day real-world business experience. Brian for Senator Gibson’s colleagues, particularly brought that in buckets. It was unfortunate for those of us on this side of the chamber for us to lose that experience from the front- but not exclusively those on this side of the bench. Despite not being a member of the chamber. It is also a sad day for the people of frontbench, he made an enormous contribu- Australia. tion. Certainly, as Minister for Industry, Sci- ence and Resources during the last three As Senator Ferguson said, much of what years, I really did value your advice. I found you did was always geared to what was right it invaluable because of your great experi- and what was going to be the best outcome ence. for the people of Australia—not the best out- come solely for the Liberal Party, even I mentioned that Senator Gibson shared though you are such a staunch Liberal. You with me membership of the class of ’93 and had and still have that global vision of what being a parliamentary secretary to the first is best for the people. You also did what was government of the Howard era. There was best for Tasmanians so well. If Tasmanians one other matter that we shared in common. can have representatives like you and Sena- According to a former Labor leader in this tor Newman, Tasmania can only keep going place, one former Senator Gareth Evans, we forward, instead of having the little lull it has look exactly alike. He seemed to think we had in the last few years. You have been an were twins and had an extraordinary capacity outstanding contributor, Senator Gibson, to to confuse Brian and me. If I asked a ques- the people, the party and the parliament. tion from the other side, Gareth would look Your intellect has always been used con- at Brian and answer the question and refer to structively and not combatively, and I think Senator Gibson as ‘Senator Minchin’ and that is also a feature of your distinguished vice versa for the whole period we were sit- career here in this place. You have, as I say, ting there, quite widely apart. Many of us did always sought to get that best result for the find Gareth a fairly confused fellow, but people, and that is where your intellect has certainly in the case of Senator Gibson and been able to be used to such great effect. me he was enormously confused. I can see some similarity, although I would have to You outlined today the many achieve- say, Senator Gibson, that I was somewhat ments and issues in which you have been disturbed by this confusion which Gareth involved since coming here in 1993. I am exhibited, given that I am 16½ years younger very pleased you did that, because I think that too many people might remember the Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 237 events of October 1996, as opposed to what You and Pauline have been a wonderful you have done over a very long period. You team. Thank you, Pauline, for giving Brian have not been one to go out and be a media to us for as long as you have, because he has junkie. You have not sought recognition for made a great contribution as a team with all the work you have done, and yet there is you. I think back to all those months when so much where the people of Australia and you, Brian, were travelling around Australia, your colleagues owe you a debt of gratitude. leaving home and leaving Pauline because There is one thing you will not be remem- you were doing a duty of work here. It has bered for, and Senator Murray made an in- been a sheer delight to have you here. I hope terjection a little earlier about this: I do not we see you often. Good luck, and safe pas- think you will ever go down in the history sage. books as the rowdiest senator we ever pro- As for former Senator Jocelyn Newman, duced in this parliament. You have been ex- much has been said about her, and all of it is ceptionally quiet and exceptionally diligent richly deserved. I do not particularly wish to in everything that you have done. But those repeat what others have said. However, I do things you outlined today are the things for wish to put on record my acknowledgement which you should be remembered in this of her outstanding qualities not just as a place, and not that sad day in October 1996. I senator and a minister but as a person, a recall saying to you and Pauline that night at friend, a wife, a mother and a grandmother. dinner when we went with Jim and Jan How many roles does one person fulfil? She Short, ‘It won’t be long, Brian: you will be has done an outstanding job in all of those. back. Don’t worry, you will be back.’ Well, I Her grandchildren, of course, are the love of am glad that you decided to step aside and go her life, and she and one of my staff mem- and do other things in your life, because that bers, Sue Oldham, used to run a little com- is obviously a decision that you have decided petition for quite some time, to see who to make. Unfortunately, that decision has could produce more grandchildren more come ahead of that recall. I just wish that we quickly. I do not know who won that race: it had seen your ability as a minister fulfilled, might be a tied score at the moment. But because I think that would have been fantas- Jocelyn was always so excited to share in the tic for all of us. achievements and happenings of her son and Your skill in helping steer Australia into daughter and, of course, of the grandchil- the modern era with a new tax system is dren. something for which you will be very long But she did all that while ably managing remembered, because it was not an easy task her various jobs with equal passion and abil- that was given to you but it was a task you ity. When Jocelyn became Minister for So- performed with great aplomb. That will be cial Security, I was chairman of her legisla- remembered by the colleagues with whom tion committee, and she made it crystal clear you worked and also by the many benefici- that she was there to make changes for the aries out there in the public who will benefit better. She was not going to have people from a new tax system that is competitive in dudding the system. She wanted to make it the world. fair. She wanted to make sure that the social When you took over from Shirley Walters, security system was going to be a real safety I thought, ‘Who would ever be game to do net instead of a hammock. She therefore en- that?’ For those of you who do not know sured that the cheats were caught and that former Senator Shirley Walters, she was a other things happened, such as the role of tireless worker—probably a little noisier than carers being acknowledged in the system, Senator Gibson—in the Senate for many instead of their being taken for granted and years, and she stood up for Tasmania through exploited in many ways. But with almost the thick and thin. Well, Brian, you did it; you speed of lightning Australians started to see succeeded Shirley in the most admirable that fairer system evolving. That was due way, and you did it with distinction, even if credit to Senator Newman, who had been you were a little quieter. given such a difficult task. 238 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

The other source of fascination was the matters—then those involved in other sorts way in which she did so much in a relatively of committees do not have much interaction short period of time. Contrary to the public with you, apart from the normal courtesies perception of politicians, she often did all across the chamber. It is probably true that a this very hard work at times of great personal number of my colleagues do not know you stress and duress. I recall saying to her one as well as I do. day when Kevin was not particularly well, The other point I make in commencing ‘Why don’t you just bail out and look after my remarks is that I have had the good for- the pair of yourselves forever and ever? You tune to meet your wife, Pauline, several have done so much in this place,’ and she times. It is not always true, but sometimes turned to me with a tear in her eye, and she you can judge a person somewhat by the said, ‘Kevin and I have decided that there are quality of their spouse or partner, and, in just a few more things that I have to do to your case, wife. You must be a pretty good make this system fairer, and I am going to chap because she struck me as a fine woman stick it out.’ Clearly, yet again, it was a joint and a great support to you. decision between Jocelyn and Kevin. Con- gratulations, Jocelyn, on an outstanding ca- I guess when we look at our professional reer and an outstanding record in everything relationship, which is what we have, where you have done. As has already been men- you as a government senator are attempting tioned today, it is not as though she came in to pursue the government agenda and fla- here just having fallen off the street. She had vouring it with your own particular style and a very successful legal career, and she has I, on my side, am trying to interfere as much been involved in many other aspects of char- as I can and change your direction, we share ity work as well. To you, Jocelyn, godspeed, a common interest and background. We good luck, good health and a long retirement. share an understanding of economics and business. We share a pretty broad under- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) standing of life, including in other countries. (7.07 p.m.)—Senator Stott Despoja has spo- There is much that we share. In economic ken on behalf of the Democrats in the vale- terms, however, we are quite distant. I heard dictory for former Senator Newman. I will you described as dry; sometimes you are add some brief remarks on a personal ac- bone dry. As everyone knows, not only am I count. I wish her really well in her retire- wet but sometimes I am dripping wet. ment. Not many people rise to one of the most senior ranks as a minister of the Crown. Sometimes we had within the committee She has obviously had an astonishingly suc- process, in the corridors and in other forums cessful political career, with that as the pin- very interesting discourse from differing nacle. On a personal front, I always found points of view, but we both understood each her very courteous, friendly and helpful to other extremely well. A quality which bene- me. I wish her well. fits the Senate is not just having a number of parties who can represent different policies I rise to speak in the valedictory for and different points of views but having Senator Gibson not only on behalf of the senators who can understand each other and Australian Democrats but also on my own debate an issue with some intellectual depth account. So, Rowdy, what are we going to and some depth of experience. I must say as say about you? I personally found your an opposition senator—and a well-regarded friendship and my relationship with you ex- and highly ranked one I thought—I always tremely good. When I was talking to my found that, on a professional basis, my inter- colleagues earlier today about your departure actions with you on some extremely weighty I was reminded again of one of the sadnesses matters, some extremely difficult, some ex- of this place—that is, that many senators tremely technical matters, very beneficial. actually do not get to know each other that You had an influence. It is no good just hav- well. If your committee work and interests ing an influence in your own party, it is im- take you off in a particular direction—in portant in these things to have an influence your case, business, economic and financial Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 239 on other parties. Your efforts were not neces- were, I know, genuinely said by those who sarily wasted, let us put it that way. have said them. I simply want to say that I The other thing that has been noted about agree with all of them and wish to be associ- you is that you are a courteous man. You are ated with them. Senator Coonan wants to say a man who debates and conducts himself in a few words so I will not take up the time of Senate matters with courtesy and delibera- the Senate too much longer. tion. That is a characteristic which I would There is just one point I want to make— recommend to many more senators and and I hope this does not bring a discordant members. It is your particular style. I think note to this very significant debate. That is you receive credit for that personality trait that in Australia we have been very favoured and that makes you enjoyable. But, of by the contribution that Senator Newman has course, being a bloke you also have to rate been able to make to public life, to govern- another bloke as a bloke. Brian understands ment policy and to the way Australia is be- the joy of a social occasion. He understands cause of her ability, because of her skills, the meaning of good entertainment and good because of her compassion and because of company. He understands the interests which her energy. Again I agree with everything make life more than politics and the intellect. that everyone has said about Jocelyn. We, as He understands all sorts of matters which are a country, have been extremely fortunate to as good for the bar, the lounge or the dining have had the use of former Senator New- room as they are for the Senate chamber. I man’s talents, particularly in her role as a think your contribution to the Senate has senior minister in this parliament. However, been a strong and good one, much of it it really angers me that, through stupidity missed by both the public and senators be- and the political process—and I could blame cause much of it was within committees. I those opposite; I guess that they only do count you as a friend and I wish you well. what they think they are paid to do—we Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- have been deprived of the skills of someone sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- like you, Brian. You had so much to offer to tion) (7.14 p.m.)—I always hesitate to speak Australia in this parliament. in these sorts of debates because I know that So many people say to me, ‘All the rest of the recipients feel at times a little embar- you are drones; why don’t you get people in rassed. I suspect by now, Senator Gibson, there of significance—people with experi- that you are very embarrassed and it is only ence, with backgrounds, with a record of your innate courtesy that keeps you here lis- contribution to the community?’ We had tening to these tributes. That is not to say someone like that in you, Senator Gibson, that the tributes are not all genuine; I know and we had someone like that in Senator that they are. However, they have been very Newman. We were able to take advantage of well said and very well put together, and I Senator Newman’s skills, but yours were cut am afraid that I do not have the wit or the off. I cannot help but be critical of the Labor skill to put such words together—suffice it Party for pursuing what was a base political for me to say that I agree with everything motive and nothing more—nothing more. that has been said and I did want to rise to For that, Australia has been deprived of the simply associate myself with this motion. even greater contribution you could have I notice that Senator Newman is absent, as made as a minister in this government and I suspect you might like to be. I suspect that the good things you would have done for Senator Newman is somewhere in the Australia. building, waiting for the barbecue that is So, all the very best to you and Pauline. coming very shortly. She was able to absent Pauline has been a great support. I know that herself, whereas you were not—and I look Lesley wants to associate herself with the into the gallery and I see former Senator better of the remarks that I have made; she Parer there, and I think he did the same thing has grown to love both you and Pauline. I do as well. So I do realise that it is difficult. But not think you are retiring; I just think you are all of the very fine words that have been said moving on. I must sit down to let Senator 240 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Coonan rise, but all the very best to all of Community Affairs References Commit- you. tee— Senator COONEY (Victoria) (7.18 Appointed: Senators Crowley, Gibbs, p.m.)—I start by, first of all, acknowledging Knowles, Lees, McLucas and Tchen the great contribution that Senator Newman Participating members: has made to parliament and to Australia and then by acknowledging Senator Gibson’s Senators Bartlett and Harradine contribution and Pauline’s contribution. I Senator Cherry for matters relating to think of you both together, and that point has the Family and Community Services been made. Senator Gibson, I think you are a portfolio person who has shown tremendous grace Economics Legislation Committee— under pressure, and I have nothing but great admiration for you. I have a greater regard Appointed: Senators Brandis, Chapman, for business life now because of you. The Collins, Murray, Schacht and Watson only thing I do not regret about things, Brian, Participating members: Senators Har- is that you never got equal time at St Jo- radine and Ridgeway sephs, and nor you should have! I say to you Substitute member: Senator Allison to and Pauline: tremendous job. You have had a replace Senator Murray for matters re- harsh time in lots of ways, but you have an- lating to the Resources portfolio swered that with tremendous grace and you have been a great figure in this chamber. Economics References Committee— COMMITTEES Appointed: Senators Bolkus, Collins, Membership Cook, Ridgeway The PRESIDENT—I have received let- Participating members: Senators Har- ters from party leaders nominating senators radine and Murray to be members of various committees. Substitute member: Senator Allison to Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— replace Senator Ridgeway for matters Leader of the National Party of Australia in relating to the Resources portfolio the Senate and Parliamentary Secretary to Employment, Workplace Relations and the Minister for Transport and Regional Education Legislation Committee— Services) (7.19 p.m.)—by leave—I move: Appointed: Senators Brandis, George That senators be appointed to committees as Campbell, Carr, Ferris, Stott Despoja follows: and Tierney Appropriations and Staffing—Standing Committee— Participating member: Senator Har- radine Appointed: Senators Boswell, Bourne, Heffernan, Ian Macdonald, Ray and Substitute members: Schacht Senator Murray to replace Senator Community Affairs Legislation Commit- Stott Despoja for matters relating to tee— the Workplace Relations portfolio Appointed: Senators Allison, Bishop, Senator Lees to replace Senator Stott Denman, Herron, Knowles and Tchen Despoja for matters relating to the Participating members: Training portfolio Senator Harradine Senator Cherry to replace Senator Senator Lees for matters relating to Stott Despoja for matters relating to the Health portfolio the Employment portfolio Senator Cherry for matters relating to Senator Allison to replace Senator the Family and Community Services Stott Despoja for matters relating to portfolio the Schools portfolio Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 241

Employment, Workplace Relations and Senators Greig and Stott Despoja for Education References Committee— matters relating to the Information Technology portfolio Appointed: Senators Brandis, George Campbell, Carr, Crossin, Stott Despoja Senator Ridgeway for matters relat- ing to the Arts portfolio and Tierney Finance and Public Administration Participating member: Senator Har- Legislation Committee— radine Appointed: Senators Brandis, Faulkner, Substitute members: Forshaw, Lightfoot, Mason and Murray Senator Murray to replace Senator Participating members: Senators Har- Stott Despoja for matters relating to radine and Ridgeway the Workplace Relations portfolio Finance and Public Administration Ref- Senator Lees to replace Senator Stott erences Committee— Despoja for matters relating to the Appointed: Senators Forshaw, Light- Training portfolio foot, Lundy, Ridgeway, Schacht and Watson Senator Cherry to replace Senator Stott Despoja for matters relating to Participating members: the Employment portfolio Senators Harradine and Murray Senator Allison to replace Senator Senators Allison for matters relating Stott Despoja for matters relating to to public service issues the Schools portfolio Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee— Environment, Communications, Infor- Appointed: Senators Bourne, Evans, mation Technology and the Arts Legisla- Ferguson, Hogg, Sandy Macdonald and tion Committee— Payne Appointed: Senators Bartlett, Calvert, Participating member: Senator Har- Eggleston, Lundy, Mackay and Tchen radine Participating members: Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Ref- Senators Harradine and Lees erences Committee— Senators Allison and Bourne for Appointed: Senators Bourne, Hogg, Hutchins, Lightfoot, Sandy Macdonald matters relating to the Communica- and West tions portfolio Participating member: Senator Har- Senator Stott Despoja for matters radine relating to the Information Technol- House—Standing Committee— ogy portfolio Appointed: Senators Brandis, Calvert, Senator Ridgeway for matters relat- Carr, Collins, Gibbs and Knowles ing to the Arts portfolio Legal and Constitutional Legislation Substitute member: Senator Greig to re- Committee— place Senator Bartlett for matters relat- ing to the Information Technology port- Appointed: Senators Cooney, Greig, folio McKiernan, Mason, Payne and Scullion Environment, Communications, Infor- Participating members: mation Technology and the Arts Refer- Senator Harradine ences Committee— Senator Bartlett for matters relating Appointed: Senators Allison, Lundy, to the Immigration and Multicultural Mackay, McLucas, Tchen and Tierney Affairs portfolio Participating members: Substitute member: Senator Lees to re- Senators Harradine and Lees place Senator Greig for matters relating to the Indigenous Affairs portfolio Senators Bartlett for matters relating to the Environment portfolio 242 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

Legal and Constitutional References Senator Greig for matters relating to Committee— the Fisheries and Transport portfolios Appointed: Senators Cooney, Greig, Scrutiny of Bills—Standing Commit- Ludwig and McKiernan tee— Participating members: Appointed: Senators Cooney, Crane, Senator Harradine Crossin, Ferris, Mason and Murray Senator Bartlett for matters relating Selection of Bills—Standing Commit- to the Immigration and Multicultural tee— Affairs portfolio Appointed: Senators Buckland, Ian Substitute member: Senator Lees to re- Campbell, Crossin and Ferris place Senator Greig for matters relating Senators’ Interests—Standing Commit- to the Indigenous Affairs portfolio tee— Library—Standing Committee— Appointed: Senators Allison, Brandis, Appointed: Senators Crowley, Mackay Bolkus, Collins, Denman, Forshaw, and Sherry Herron and Lightfoot. Privileges—Standing Committee— Question agreed to. Appointed: Senators Eggleston, Evans, ADJOURNMENT Knowles, McGauran, Payne, Ray and The PRESIDENT—Order! It being 7.20 Sherry p.m., I propose the question: Procedure—Standing Committee— That the Senate do now adjourn. Appointed: Senators Bourne, George New South Wales: Bushfires Campbell, Ian Campbell, Eggleston, Ferguson, Ludwig and Ray Gibson, Senator Brian Publications—Standing Committee— Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) Appointed: Senators Bishop, Calvert, (7.20 p.m.)—I am conscious that we are Chapman, Hutchins, Lightfoot, McLu- starting the adjournment and that there are cas and McKiernan other speakers who wish to continue making Regulations and Ordinances—Standing remarks regarding Senator Gibson’s decision Committee— to leave the Senate—and they are most de- Appointed: Senators Bartlett, Buckland served. I will endeavour to finish my re- and Ludwig marks on the issue I want to raise tonight as Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- quickly as I can. port Legislation Committee— Tonight I want to make some comment Appointed: Senators Buckland, Cherry, regarding the recent bushfires that ravaged Crane, Ferris, McGauran and O’Brien many parts of New South Wales over Participating members: Christmas. I note that today the Senate and the House of Representatives passed, unani- Senator Harradine mously, motions that acknowledged the con- Senator Bartlett for matters relating tribution of thousands of Australians who to animal welfare issues were involved in the fight to prevent loss of Senator Greig for matters relating to life and property. We particularly acknowl- the Fisheries and Transport portfolios edged the efforts of firefighters, emergency Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- and rescue services, members of various port References Committee— government services and agencies, as well as Appointed: Senators Buckland, Crane, many thousands of volunteers, both indi- Ferris, Mackay, O’Brien and Ridgeway vidually and as members of organisations Participating members: across so many communities. Tonight I want Senator Harradine to record my own appreciation of the work Senators Bartlett for matters relating done by all those thousands of Australians, to animal welfare issues particularly in the areas of the Sutherland shire and the Illawarra, where I live. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 243

I was not directly affected by the fires, but were lost—than occurred in the most recent members of my family living in Stanwell fires at Christmas, even though the most re- Park and Heathcote were. They were initially cent fires were probably a greater threat in stranded in Stanwell Park on Christmas Day their intensity and geographical spread. For- as the fires approached, and my father, who tunately, on this occasion, unlike 1994, no resides at the John Paul Retirement Village lives were lost at all, though, unfortunately, in Heathcote, was—along with all the other one fire fighter suffered a heart attack during residents—evacuated. So we saw first hand the crisis. the magnificent way in which a community I do not want to apportion any blame for pulled together to help those threatened and the 1994 fires but I remind Senator Tierney evacuated because of the fires. Local clubs, and the Senate that the Liberal-National businesses, charities and service organisa- Party coalition was in power in New South tions provided emergency accommodation, Wales in 1994, not the Labor Party. Obvi- food, clothing and other support for hundreds ously there has been much improvement of people who were forced to leave their since that time in our ability to combat large homes. In a number of cases, nursing homes bushfires, and no doubt we will also learn and retirement villages were evacuated dur- from this latest crisis. We must keep im- ing the early hours of the morning of Boxing proving our firefighting capability but it re- Day. This was no easy task, but it was quires constructive debate, not political point achieved with efficiency and safety. scoring. Tragically, unfortunately, some people Secondly, Senator Tierney should note were very seriously affected, losing their that a lot of the fires were deliberately lit, homes and possessions. I want to record my which explains why fires suddenly occurred appreciation to both the federal government in areas where they would not normally have and the state government of New South been anticipated. No amount of back- Wales for acting quickly to assist those peo- burning, which he urges, can protect some ple to rebuild their homes and their lives. areas when people deliberately start fires Whilst today’s motion was carried unani- near homes, townships and communities. mously, it is unfortunate that some members Thirdly, fires do not follow predictable of the Liberal and National parties have tried courses. For instance, I recall that in 1994 to make political capital out of these tragic houses were burnt in the Sydney suburbs of circumstances. I refer to an article by Senator Bonnet Bay and Jannali. These are highly John Tierney in the Australian newspaper of residential areas and those houses were in Friday, 11 January. That article is entitled streets which were a very large distance from ‘Blame Bob Carr and greenies for the fire surrounding bushland. crisis, suggests John Tierney’. I will not On this most recent occasion, many quote extensively from the article, but Sena- homes in the Sutherland Shire and the Illa- tor Tierney talks about the conflagration in warra were saved because of the profession- New South Wales and that it was far more alism of our firefighters and the improved intense and extensive than it would have equipment, resources and training that has been in earlier times when more realistic been provided since 1994. For instance, in policies had prevailed. He goes on to say: Waterfall and Bundeena, both communities New South Wales environmental policies in this in the heart of the Royal National Park, not a area are doing more harm than good. The incin- single house was lost. So it is simplistic and eration of the Royal National Park twice in seven spurious to claim that fires and the resultant years is stark testimony to that. damage could have been prevented simply I happen to live very close to the Royal Na- by more burning off. But that is the usual cry tional Park, and I would remind Senator of the Liberals and the National Party, and Tierney that, if he looked at the facts, he particularly Senator Tierney, who tried to might recall a few salient points. Firstly, in make political capital out of other people’s 1994 the fires caused far greater property misfortunes. damage—and, indeed, a number of lives 244 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

I also draw attention to criticism levelled urer) (7.28 p.m.)—I thank the Senate and I at the New South Wales Rural Fire Service thank my colleagues, particularly the new by Andrew Fraser, the National Party mem- very competent Deputy Whip who has jug- ber for Coffs Harbour in the New South gled a very difficult list this afternoon. I Wales parliament. What is interesting about know how she feels! I want to associate my- Mr Andrew Fraser is that that same gentle- self with the comments about Brian Gibson man had to recently call upon the services of and Jocelyn Newman. I have not checked the New South Wales Rural Fire Service to their biographies—so, Brian and Jocelyn, if put out fires which he had started on his own you are watching, this is from the heart. property. Without getting permission to do They are, without fear of contradiction, two so, he started fires on his own property in an giants—not in the sense of physical stature, I attempt to burn off. That fire got out of con- hasten to add, but in their standing amongst trol, escaped into a local state forest and de- us their colleagues and in their achievements stroyed two hectares of land. It would have in the parliament and in their communities. been a lot worse except for the efforts of the It has been my lot to inherit from Brian volunteer firefighters who rushed out to Mr much of his considered work as an out- Fraser’s own property to put out that fire. standing contributor to committees. In par- Whilst I support strongly the motion that ticular, it falls to me to try to bed down some was moved today in the Senate, I note point aspects of the 21st century tax system that 4 which indicated that the Senate recognises we now have in this country and to which he the way that the community heroically pulled made such a significant contribution in that together in a time of crisis, and that truly extensive committee investigation into a new demonstrates the strength of the Australian tax system. I have also inherited the work of spirit. Unfortunately, some of the comments the Senate reports on the mass marketed and articles of Senator Tierney and Mr An- schemes. It will once again fall to me to drew Fraser demonstrate all that is mean draw from the work of that committee to try spirited about the coalition. to find a balance between promoters of tax I will finish by taking this opportunity to aggressive schemes on the one hand and extend my best wishes to Senator Gibson. He more hapless investors on the other hand. is definitely not a mean spirited person. In I also want to acknowledge his great busi- fact, he is a very warm and open-hearted ness acumen, which has been evident person. I have not had an opportunity to throughout all of the work he has done in work with him much on committees, except parliament and which I have particularly on the Joint Committee of Public Accounts noted as a fellow committee member on the and Audit when I first came into the parlia- Joint Standing Committee of Public Ac- ment. However, my wife and I enjoyed his counts and Audit, where he was always a company and that of his wife, Pauline, on a voice of reason and always brought his ex- trip to Ireland. I know that Pauline and Brian pertise to bear. His business acumen will be will accept our best wishes—both mine and sorely missed. He is a capable, most able Jan’s—and I hope they have many long, senator whose promotion to the executive, as happy years together out of the Senate in many have said, was well deserved but all whatever endeavours Brian pursues. too brief. The PRESIDENT—I understand there is Jocelyn Newman, as many have noted, an agreement between senators as to the time has had a most illustrious career as the first for the remaining speeches, so with the leave woman in the Howard cabinet and as a dis- of the Senate we will set the clock accord- tinguished Minister for Social Security. I will ingly. just pick out one of her contributions: her Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn contribution in reforming the welfare system was nothing short of a landmark in this Gibson, Senator Brian country. Building on the McClure report, Senator COONAN (New South Wales— Jocelyn Newman, although not particularly Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- well herself and having suffered the loss of Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 245 her beloved husband, had the vision, the en- wishes to be associated with these remarks. ergy and the drive to push through reforms From my own point of view and also on be- that focused on building the potential of half of the Parer family, can I once again every Australian, looking not at what people thank Brian Gibson for the many small but cannot do but what they were capable of, nevertheless deeply felt kindnesses he what they can do. It has revolutionised our showed to me and wish him and his wife thinking about welfare as a hand-up to the very well in the future. genuinely needy and not a hand-out. Federal Parliament I have been very honoured to serve as Senator TCHEN (Victoria) (7.34 p.m.)— Jocelyn Newman’s representative for the Yesterday was an important date marking the status of women in New South Wales. opening of the 40th Parliament. It was also, Jocelyn was a pioneer, as indeed have been coincidentally, the first day of the lunar new many of the more senior women members in year, of the Year of the Horse, a day of ex- parliament. She never kicked the ladder out pression of goodwill and of celebration en- behind her. She was always one who encour- joyed in many various guises by over one- aged those who came after her. I must say third of the world’s population. The 40th that I am personally so proud of her Parliament could not have been opened on a achievements. more auspicious day. Had I been a little more To Brian and Jocelyn: we will miss you diligent in putting my name down for the because you took the time to mentor and ad- adjournment debate list yesterday, I would vise those of us who were much younger in have been able to use the occasion to offer the sense of coming into parliament much timely congratulations to the many col- after you. Your experience and your wisdom leagues both here and in the other chamber and your friendship were available to us all. for their success in the recent federal elec- We say au revoir but not goodbye to Brian tion. Fortunately, the celebration of the lunar and Jocelyn: two great Australians, two great new year occupies a period of 15 days, so it Tasmanians, two great parliamentarians and is not too late for me to do this today. two much loved and respected colleagues. Madam President, especially to you, wel- Gibson, Senator Brian come back to the head of this chamber. Senator BRANDIS (Queensland) (7.32 Today is also Ash Wednesday. Ash p.m.)—Madam President, I wonder if I might Wednesday marks the beginning of Lent, take just a moment to add a few words of my which is a time of penitence in preparation own about Senator Brian Gibson. When I for Easter. Ash Wednesday is celebrated by came to this place about 20 months ago, I those who follow the Catholic tradition by was allocated a seat up here in the horseshoe attending church service and having their beside Senator Gibson. In that time he has foreheads marked with a cross of ash as a showed me many kindnesses and personal mark of their humility and their affection for courtesies which I have very much appreci- their fellow man. Originally this was a ritual ated. I would like to express my appreciation to mark those who had committed crimes in this public fashion. Brian Gibson, as I against their neighbours and who were came to know him sitting beside him in the seeking forgiveness. So it is an occasion to next seat here, has demonstrated himself to remind ourselves of the need for self- be—and has obviously impressed those who examination and for making changes to the have known him for much longer than I errors of our ways. This makes the main have—a man of great wisdom, a man of theme of the speech yesterday in the other sound judgment, a man of exceptional per- chamber of the new Leader of the Opposi- sonal decency and a man of tremendous tion, Mr Simon Crean—which was, accord- courtesy. I noticed the gentleman whom I ing to Mr Mike Seccombe of the Sydney replaced in the Senate, the Hon. Warwick Morning Herald, to push for reform aimed at Parer, in the President’s gallery a little earlier getting order back to this place—rather in the evening. I know that Warwick, who is timely. However, Mr Seccombe apparently a great friend of Brian and Pauline Gibson, was rather sceptical, saying it is hard not to 246 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 be cynical about the prospect of meaningful but I think if, as I took it, Senator Tchen is changes, given Mr Crean’s own record of accusing Mr Beazley of lying that is an un- behaviour. But that is not the point. Mr parliamentary remark and he ought to be Crean is to be commended for being self- asked to withdraw it. examining and penitent. Better political be- The PRESIDENT—I agree if that is the haviour is what the Australian electorate ex- case. I was consulting with the Clerk as to pects and is entitled to expect. whether or not it was accusing Mr Beazley Shortly after the election in November last of lying or accusing others of lying. I am not year, I received an email from a constituent, certain. If there was any suggestion that Mr one of several who consistently offered un- Beazley was being accused of lying, that solicited but valuable, and valued, opinions must be withdrawn. to me—and no doubt to other politicians Senator TCHEN—I withdraw at your in- whose email addresses they could lay their struction. However, Mr Beazley certainly hands on as well. Instead of berating me for made an untrue statement. He said: various shortcoming this time, this gentle- As I watched our political opponents pay their man—for I assume from his name he is a booth workers on a day like today and all you get male—congratulated me, or us, for an open paid is psychic capital. and clean election campaign by all political parties. I was a little taken aback by this, so I Let me set the record straight: no Liberal asked him by return email whether he was Party booth worker was paid a cent. No Lib- aware of the type of campaign the Democrats eral Party booth workers have ever been and the Greens had waged. In reply, he said paid. that he was not thinking about the Democrats Senator Chris Evans—That is not true in and the Greens but that the Liberal and La- WA. bor parties had both behaved exceptionally Senator McLucas—It is not true in well. While I have no argument with my cor- Queensland. respondent’s approval of the Liberal cam- Senator TCHEN—The Liberal Party is a paign, the Labor Party should be embar- party of volunteers, of patriots, of ordinary rassed to accept this praise. Australians, and we are proud of it. Indeed, Let me refer senators to one particular ex- on behalf of the Labor Party, Mr Crean, the ample. In his concession speech, which was Leader of the Opposition, has much self- supposed to be a shining example of grace in examination and penitence to do on this Ash defeat, the then Leader of the Opposition, Mr Wednesday. However, I do not stand here to Kim Beazley, could not resist, even when attack the Labor Party, because I think there being gracious, manufacturing a slanderous is hope that there are members of the Labor untruth about Australians who happened to Party in parliament today who are willing to disagree with his politics. When he thanked lift their standards so that Australia will see a his campaign workers for their contributions, political contest in our parliament between it was beyond him to think of a more appro- two parties with high standards of political priate accolade but to diminish the contribu- behaviour. tions that fellow Australians of different po- On the afternoon of the election, 10 No- litical persuasions had made to our cherished vember 2001, Mrs Andrea Buller, the wife of democratic process by lying. What was this the Liberal candidate for the seat of Calwell lie? Mr Beazley said in his speech—which I in Victoria, passed away suddenly. She was printed from the ALP official web site last 27. The memorial service for the devoted Monday: mother of two-year-old Tyler, the loving and As I watched our political opponents pay their supportive wife of Darren, the pillar of booth workers on a day like today and all you get strength of the Werribee Assembly of God paid is— and the well-beloved friend and confidant of Senator Chris Evans—Madam President, many was attended by well over 1,000 I raise a point of order. I generally do not friends and relatives. Among them was Ms make points of order and interrupt senators, Maria Vamvakinou, the newly elected Labor Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 247 member for Calwell. If Ms Vamvakinou can speech of a president of the Tasmanian divi- maintain her decency and compassion, she sion of the Liberal Party who has worked will serve the people of Calwell well. If she with former Senator Newman and Senator can influence her colleagues with the same Brian Gibson over the last two years in that qualities, she will serve this parliament well. capacity. That is the context in which I There is hope. speak, and I shall keep my comments brief. There are also some certainties. Yesterday Former Senator Jocelyn Newman was, in- in the other chamber 22 new members were deed, for the Tasmanian division of the Lib- sworn in. Without discourtesy to the other eral Party, a very special lady who had a members, I wish to welcome particularly Mr unique capacity to communicate, and I think Steven Ciobo, the member for Moncrieff; Mr that that was one of the things that made her Luke Hartsuyker, the member for Cowper; such a prominent person within the Tasma- Ms Sophie Panapoulos, the member for Indi; nian political Liberal Party and the Austra- and Mr Michael Johnson, the member for lian political system. She rose to be one of Ryan. These four people have one thing in the most significant federal political identi- common with Ms Vamvakinou in that they ties to come out of Tasmania, and ranks bring to this parliament names or back- alongside Dame Enid Lyons, who was the grounds that have never before graced the first woman elected to the House of Repre- membership roll. They also share another sentatives. It is also a mark of her way that characteristic: they are all Liberal Party she gave up her seat in order to give me the members. opportunity to participate in the opening of When I had the honour to become a mem- the parliament yesterday, and I thank her for ber of this Senate, I was also bringing a that. I recognise that I have significant shoes name to this place for the first time. At that to fill, and I note that I have already been time, I said to this chamber that I thought given significant instruction from the former that was a demonstration of the success of senator. Australia’s multicultural society in bringing The Tasmanian division of the Liberal diverse people together productively. I think, Party has been extremely fortunate to have with the coming of these new members to someone of Senator Brian Gibson’s calibre the parliament, again we see an example of and, as has been demonstrated through the Australian multiculturalism, of building a speeches here this evening, integrity. He has community through diverse backgrounds, made a significant contribution to the Liberal again bearing fruit. I am very happy for Party in Tasmania and has made a significant Australia in this regard. contribution to his state and his country In the remaining time, may I very quickly through the parliament. I am proud to call associate myself with all the remarks made him a friend. As State President of the Tas- about Senator Jocelyn Newman and Senator manian division of the Liberal Party, it has Brian Gibson. I have known them for a very been a great pleasure to work with both short time but also much by reputation be- Senator Jocelyn Newman and Senator Brian fore I came into this parliament. I certainly Gibson, and I trust that they both enjoy a believe they deserve all the nice things said long and fulfilling retirement. about them. Senator Gibson is certainly a Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn gentleman of the first degree. Although in Gibson, Senator Brian the peculiarity of the English language women are called ladies, Senator Newman is Senator MASON (Queensland) (7.46 not only a lady but also a gentlewoman. p.m.)—On my first night here in the Senate I was taken to dinner by Senator Parer, as he Newman, Former Senator Jocelyn then was, Senator Calvert and Senator Gib- Gibson, Senator Brian son and their respective wives. It was a mar- Senator COLBECK (Tasmania) (7.43 vellous night; I never expected to be in- p.m.)—I might note, to start, that this is not cluded in such a group, but there was great intended as my maiden speech but as the warmth and generosity. It was the first time I 248 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002 had had the chance to speak to Brian Gibson. Australian Security Intelligence Organisa- I will miss Brian; he is a man of great cour- tion—Report for 2000-01. tesy. He is a gentleman of the old school and Centrelink—Compliance activity for Fam- a man of gentle warmth. Just yesterday, I ily and Community Services—Report for was walking along the corridor when I saw 2000-01. Brian and he ushered me in. He said, ‘Come Employment Advocate—Report for 2000- in, Brett. What did you do over Christmas?’ I 2001. said, ‘I read a few books.’ He said, ‘You Essendon Airport Limited—Report for should have read this one. It’s about 2000-01. Woodrow Wyatt’—who, Senator Evans, was Mid-year economic and fiscal outlook— once a Marxist but then reformed and be- 2001-02—Statement by the Treasurer (Mr came an informal adviser to Mrs Thatcher Costello) and the Minister for Finance and and, I understand, even Rupert Murdoch. Administration (Mr Fahey), October 2001. Senator Gibson’s interests extend from busi- National Competition Council—Report for ness—he spoke today about accountancy and 2000-01. his contribution to changing accountability National Residue Survey—Results—Re- rules in this Senate—to new members of port for 2000-01. parliament. I will always thank him for that. NetAlert Limited—Report for 2000-01. When I arrived, Senator Newman was a Pooled Development Funds Registration cabinet minister, a star in the firmament but Board—Report for 2000-01. one that I admired from afar. Senator New- Sydney Airports Corporation Limited— man, like her husband before her, made a Statement of corporate intent 2001-2004. great contribution to this nation. Australia is Telstra Corporation Limited— a much better place for it. The Senate will miss both Senator Gibson and former Sena- Equal employment opportunity pro- gram—Report for 2000-01. tor Newman, and I will miss them as well. Report for 2000-01. Senate adjourned at 7.48 p.m. United Nations—International Covenant DOCUMENTS on Civil and Political Rights—Communi- Tabling cations— The following government documents No. 832/1998—Decision. were tabled: No. 930/2000—Views. Australian Broadcasting Authority— No. 978/2001—Outline. Co-regulatory scheme for Internet con- No. 984/2001—Outline. tent regulation—Report for the period 1 No. 1011/2001—Outline. January to 30 June 2001. No. 1012/2001—Outline. Report for 2000-01. No. 1014/2001—Outline. Australian Broadcasting Corporation—Eq- No. 1036/2001—Outline. uity and diversity—Report for 1 September 2000 to 31 August 2001. Tabling Australian Communications Authority— The following documents were tabled by Telecommunications performance—Report the Clerk: for 2000-01. Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Regu- Australian Political Exchange Council— lations—Civil Aviation Orders— Report for 2000-01. Exemptions Nos CASA EX04/2002 and Australian Postal Corporation (Australia CASA EX05/2002. Post)— Instrument No. CASA 32/02. Equal employment opportunity pro- Cocos (Keeling) Islands Act—Utilities and gram—Report for 2000-01. Services Ordinance—Water and Sewerage Statement of corporate intent Services Fees Determination No. 1 of 2001/2002-2003/2004. 2001. Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 249

Veterans’ Entitlements Act— Veterans’ Entitlements (Attribution of Income) Principles 2002. Veterans’ Entitlements (Modification of Asset Deprivation Rules) Principles 2002. Veterans’ Entitlements (Modification of Income Deprivation Rules) Principles 2002. 250 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated: Communications: Contracts to Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu (Question No. 3877) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, upon notice, on 10 September 2001: (1) Was Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu awarded a contract under the Trials of Innovative Government Electronic Regional Services (TIGERS) Program to develop specifications for the creation of a web site to deliver integrated on-line government services for all tiers of government in Tasmania. (2) What was the selection process used to select Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu to develop the specifica- tions document. (3) What was the total cost of the contract. (4) Subsequent to the development of the specifications by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, were consult- ants contracted to provide a quality assessment of the specifications. (5) What was the selection process used to select the consultants to provide the quality assessment of the specifications document created by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu. (6) What was the total cost of the contract. (7) Did the quality assessment by the consultants raise any concerns about the specifications as they related to assessments of the cost, duration and technology to be used in the project. (8) If these concerns were raised, what were their specific details. (9) Why were the specifications not developed by staff working for the TIGERS program or the Na- tional Office for the Information Economy or the Office for Government Online. (10) Why were the specifications developed by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu not quality assessed by staff working for the TIGERS program or the National Office for the Information Economy or the Of- fice for Government Online. Senator Alston—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu was awarded a contract by the Tasmanian Government to provide proj- ect costing, specification and planning for the development of an integrated, cross-jurisdictional prototype capable of delivering online transaction for 3 levels of government. The contract was between Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu and the Tasmanian Government. The funding for that work was approved by the TIGERS Steering Committee as the work met the TIGERS funding criteria. (2) The selection process was undertaken by the State Tasmanian Government (3) The total cost of the contract was $55,000. (4) Yes. Two independent consultants were engaged to provide a quality assessment of the specifica- tions. One provided an independent assessment of risks, quality and costing aspects of the infor- mation provided in the project brief. The other reviewed the project management aspects of the project brief. (5) The first consultant was selected on the basis of a tender process carried out in accordance with Commonwealth Government Procurement guidelines. The second consultant was used because TIGERS has an existing contractual arrangement with that consultancy firm to provide independent project management reviews during the life of the TIGERS program. (6) The first consultant cost $11,000. Work carried out by the second consultant has been covered under its existing contract. (7) Yes. (8) Both consultants advised that the project brief lacked detail, and the solution proposed which in- volved the development of a prototype was too large, complex and expensive. Given this, a high risk was assessed with proceeding to the development of the prototype. (9) In this case, the specifications were not developed by staff working for the TIGERS program be- cause of the scope and the complexity of the work. Under these circumstances, the Tasmanian Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 251

Government in consultation with staff working for the TIGERS program developed the contract and the deliverable’s identified in the contract. Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu was engaged to develop the specifications in accordance with the contractual requirements. (10) In this case, additional expertise was required to provide advice on the viability of the solutions because of the scope, complexity and cost identified in the Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu report. Immigration: Mr Hussein Ali Hage Khalil Hammoud (Question No. 2) Senator Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Citizenship and Multi- cultural Affairs, upon notice, on 29 November 2001: (1) Does the department have in its possession a document provided by the Embassy of Lebanon that states that Mr Hussein Ali Hage Khalil Hammoud is a Lebanese national. (2) Why has Mr Hammoud, born in Bnehran, Lebanon, on 5 February 1939, not had his Australian citizenship renounced in accordance with his formal declaration made to the department in 1988. Senator Ellison—The Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Yes, the Department has in its possession a letter from the Embassy of Lebanon, dated 13 March 2001, stating that Mr Hussein Hammoud is a Lebanese national. (2) The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs has not registered Mr Hammoud’s “Declaration of Renunciation of Australian Citizenship” because he failed to comply with the requirements for renunciation as stated under section 18(1) of the Australian Citizenship Act 1948. Due to privacy considerations, I would prefer not to discuss in Parliament the personal particulars of the case. Mr Hammoud is eligible to make an application to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal for a re- view of the decision. This should be done within 28 days of receiving notification of the decision to refuse. Defence: Indonesia (Question No. 3) Senator Brown asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 10 December 2001: (1) What is the current nature of Australia’s military relationship with Indonesia. (2) In the past few financial years, has Australia trained the Indonesian military (in country training and overseas training) or does it intend to train the TNI in the foreseeable future; if so: (a) where; (b) how many were trained at each military installation; and (c) what is the nature of the training or exchange. (3) Are there any educational exchanges or other programs between the Australian and Indonesian military; if so: (a) where are they held; (b) how many Australian and Indonesian military person- nel are participating; and (c) what is the nature of the exchanges. (4) (a) Have any joint military exercises been conducted between Indonesia and Australia; and (b) are any planned in the foreseeable future. (5) Does the Australian Government or any government contractor (such as ADI) sell or supply any equipment to the Indonesian military; if so: (a) which companies; (b) what exactly is supplied; (c) how much is supplied; (d) what is it used for; and (e) how much are these contracts worth. (6) How much money is being spent on Australia’s military relationship with Indonesia. (7) Given the TNI’s deplorable past and present human rights record: (a) what policies does the Aus- tralian Government have regarding training military personnel from countries with poor human rights records; and (b) what policies are in place for monitoring and holding accountable foreign military personnel trained in Australia once they return home. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Australia and Indonesia have a Defence Cooperation (DC) Program, which has been in place for more than 25 years. Expenditure on DC this financial year is expected to be $4.58 million, cover- 252 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

ing professional development, study visits, non-combat training for the three Services and support for Indonesia Navy Nomad maritime surveillance operations. The Government’s White Paper, De- fence 2000: Our Future Defence Force, notes that Australia’s fundamental interests and objectives in having a good defence relationship with Indonesia remain as important as ever. The White Pa- per notes that the Government is committed to working with the Indonesian Government to estab- lish, over time, a new defence relationship that will serve our enduring shared strategic interests. Throughout the East Timor crisis and beyond, Australia maintained defence relations with TNI. At no time was the relationship severed. Australia Defence Force (ADF) and TNI personnel remained in each other’s country throughout the crisis period. In 2000/2001 there were a number of senior Defence visits to Indonesia, culminating in a visit by the Chief of the Defence Force on 26-28 September 2001. The former Minister for Defence, the Hon Peter Reith, accompanied the Minister for Foreign Af- fairs and the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, on a visit to Indonesia on 6-8 September 2001. (2) Since September 1999, Defence has trained Indonesian Defence Force personnel in Australia and will continue to provide selected places on training courses in future years. Information on training over the periods requested is tabled below for (2) (a), (b) and (c): Training/Course Establishment 99-00 00-01 01-02 Navigation HMAS Watson 2 Staff College HMAS Penguin 1 1 Underwater Medicine HMAS Penguin 1 Instructor Training Training Centre, East Sydney 3 RAN Maritime Studies Period HMAS Creswell 2 2 Junior Officer Strategic Stud- HMAS Creswell 1 1 ies H2 Hydrographic Officer HMAS Penguin 1 1 Command & Staff Queenscliff 1 Logistic Officer Basic ALTC - Bandiana 1 1 Logistic Officer Intermediate ALTC - Bandiana 1 Logistic Officer Advanced ALTC - Bandiana 1 International Training Devel- School of Army Education 1 oper Regimental Officer—Military School of Military Police 2 Police Intermediate Staff Course Canungra 1 1 Instructional Tech- School of Manage- 3 nique/Training Development ment/Training Technique Training Management 2 Flying Safety Training Directorate of Flying Safety 2 2 RAAF Command & Staff RAAF Staff College, Fairbairn 1 1 Engineering Officer Aircraft Technical Training School 2 1 Operation & Maintenance Engineer Officer Basic RAAF College 2 Logistic Officer Basic RAAF Wagga 1 1 Flying Training Officer RAAF East Sale 1 1 Instructional Technique/Basic RAAF East Sale 1 1 Staff Audiovisual Laboratory Tech- Defence International Training 14 nician Centre Defence Management Semi- Canberra 5 5 nar Defence Cooperation Scholar- Various locations, ADFA and 12 12 12 ships other AS universities Overseas Joint Warfare Williamtown 4 Course ADF Peacekeeping Seminar Williamtown 3 2 1 Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 253

Training/Course Establishment 99-00 00-01 01-02 Maritime Air Surveillance Williamtown 2 4 4 Defence Strategic and De- Weston 3 3 fence Strategic Studies Integrated Logistic Support Canberra/Bandiana 3 3 Managers Methodology of English Lan- Defence International Training 55 guage Teaching Centre (DITC), Melbourne English Development Teacher DITC 3 4 Course Australian Defence Force DITC 343 English Raters Course Advanced Australian English DITC 5 10 4 Learning (prerequisite for scholarship program) (3) Defence has an educational exchange program with the Indonesian Defence Force. In addition to the information provided in the table below - which answers (3) (a), (b) and (c) - the DC Scholar- ship Program for postgraduate study (mentioned in the table above) provides Indonesian military personnel with the opportunity to gain a postgraduate degree from an Australian university. Position Location Officer Australian English Language Defence International Training Indonesian Lieutenant Colo- Methods Officer x 1 (teaching Centre, Melbourne nel equivalent staff) Staff Officer x 1 (teaching staff) Aerospace Centre, Canberra Indonesian Colonel equivalent Pusbasa Instructor x 1 Indonesia Australian Major Staff College Instructor x 1 Indonesia Australian Wing Commander Staff College students x 3 finish Indonesia Australian Major equivalent March 2002 Staff College students x 3 un- Indonesia Australian Major equivalent dertaking preparatory course Navy Seaman Training x 1 Indonesia Australian Lieutenant Colonel equivalent (4) In financial year 1998/99, a number of combined military exercises were held between Australia and Indonesia. These exercises are listed below: EX CASSOWARY 98-2 and 99-1 (maritime air surveillance); 3 PASSEXs (harbour training and sea exercise programs); EX SATRIA BHAKTI (humanitarian assistance/disaster relief); EX TRISETIA 98/99 (interoperability and combined exercise at tactical level); ELANG AUSINDO 98 (bilateral air training activity); RAJAWALI AUSINDO 98 (tactical air drop interoperability); and, ALBATROS AUSINDO 98-4 and 99-5 (maritime air surveillance). No combined military exercises have been held since 1998/99 and none are scheduled in the fore- seeable future. (5) Australia supplies assistance/equipment to the NOMAD maintenance team located in Surabaya, Indonesia. The NOMAD maintenance team, comprising three ADF technical personnel, assists the Indonesian Navy through the provision of training and general maintenance for their fleet of Aus- tralian-manufactured NOMAD maritime surveillance aircraft. In financial year 2000/01, Defence gifted to TNI-AL surplus/written-off material, no longer suited to ADF requirements. The gifts were six instrument vertical speed indicators and one test facility kit, used for battery testing. All items are used in the TNI-AL NOMAD fleet. Under the DC Program, Defence funds the NOMAD medium-term support package (MTSP) for the TNI-AL maritime surveillance aircraft. The MTSP was implemented in 2000/01, and provi- sion for this package is included in the 2001/02 budget. The expected cost of the MTSP for 2001/02 is $440,000. 254 SENATE Wednesday, 13 February 2002

The DC budget annually provides a small consumables budget for the NOMAD maintenance team. This funding includes consumables that are restricted to small parts such as O rings, back up rings, twisters, sealing kits, screws, paint, clips, tools and other minor consumables that assist in keeping the NOMAD fleet operational. $10,000 is budgeted annually for NOMAD consumables. Defence has also contracted Boeing to convert Australian Air Publications for NOMAD aircraft into the civilian format currently used for all other NOMAD aircraft. The expected cost of this conversion is $934,885.45, split over financial years 2000/01 and 2001/02. Apart from this support for the NOMAD aircraft, the Australian Government has not supplied any defence or related equipment to the Indonesian Defence Force, either directly or through a gov- ernment contractor, since June 1998. (6) Under the DC budget, Defence has spent the following amounts on DC activities over the previ- ous three financial years: 2001-2002 $4.584 million (expected) 2000-2001 $3.355 million (actual) 1999-2000 $5.234 million (actual) (7) (a) Defence assistance in the development of Indonesian Service personnel skills concentrates on non-combat training in areas such as senior officer development, peacekeeping, logistics, health and safety, maritime surveillance, aircraft engineering and maintenance and senior staff college exchanges. Training provided to Indonesian Service personnel is aimed at developing a modern and pro- fessional Indonesian Defence Force with respect for the rule of law, and accountable and re- sponsible codes of conduct that professionalism entails. (b) The Australian Government cannot be held accountable for the activities of foreign nationals undertaken in their own countries or elsewhere. Activities of military personnel that contra- vene International Humanitarian or Human Rights Law are subject to the jurisdiction of their own national government and in the future may also be subject to the jurisdiction of the new International Criminal Court. It is always open to the United Nations Security Council to establish an ad hoc tribunal to deal with serious breaches of international criminal law. Workplace Relations: Unfair Dismissals (Question No. 5) Senator Murray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Work- place Relations, upon notice, on 20 December 2001: With reference to the answer to question on notice no.1005 (Senate Hansard, 4 March 1998, p. 421): (1) Can the Minister provide a table for all unfair dismissal applications under federal and state law for the 2000-01 financial year, for all states and territories, showing federal, state and total amounts on a similar basis to (1) of the referenced question? (2) Can the Minister provide a table for all small business unfair dismissal applications under federal and state law for the 2000-01 financial year, for all states and territories, showing federal, state and total amounts on a similar basis to (1) of the referenced question? Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) The following table provides information on unfair dismissal applications lodged in Australian jurisdictions between 1 July 2000 and 30 June 2001: Applications lodged between 1 July 2000 and 30 June 20011 State / Territory Federal State Combined New South Wales 1,648 4,041 5,689 Queensland 420 1,866 2,286 Western Australia2 398 1,7592 2,157 South Australia 198 1,175 1,373 Tasmania 137 264 401 Wednesday, 13 February 2002 SENATE 255

Applications lodged between 1 July 2000 and 30 June 20011 State / Territory Federal State Combined Victoria3 4,781 n/a 4,781 Australian Capital Territory3 250 n/a 250 Northern Territory3 263 n/a 263 Total 8,095 9,105 17,200 Notes 1 Federal and State figures are based on calendar months, and incorporate estimates and interpola- tions where original data are not available. Official and unofficial sources are used. 2 Western Australian State figures include both unfair dismissal applications and applications which combine claims of unfair dismissal and denial of contractual benefits. 3 There are no separate Territory unfair dismissal systems, and there has been no separate Victorian unfair dismissal system since 1996. (2) The Australian Industrial Registry collects information on the number and percentage of unfair dismissal applications that involve employers with 15 or fewer employees. However, this infor- mation relates to unfair dismissal applications under the federal Workplace Relations Act 1996 only. As far as the Federal Government is aware, no State or Territory collects data on the size of respondents to unfair dismissal applications. Therefore, it is not possible to provide a table for all small business unfair dismissals under federal and state law for 2000-01 as requested. The following table provides information on federal unfair dismissal applications, broken down by the State and Territory in which the federal application was lodged. Note that this information is incomplete, as employers provide the data voluntarily. Not all employers respond to the Registry’s request for information on employer size - the total number of respondents who provided infor- mation on employer size is indicated in the table.

Federal unfair dismissal applications lodged between 1 July 2000 and 30 June 2001 Registry Total termination Total employer Number of Employers em- of employment responses received responses re- ploying 15 or applications lodged to Registry’s re- ceived from fewer employ- quest for informa- employers em- ees as % of tion on employer ploying 15 or total employer size fewer employ- responses re- ees ceived New South Wales 1,648 359 97 27.0% Queensland 420 283 53 18.7% Western Australia 398 104 37 35.6% South Australia 198 104 14 13.5% Tasmania 137 84 23 27.4% Victoria 4,781 1,357 530 39.1% Australian Capital 250 90 35 38.9% Territory Northern Territory 263 145 50 34.5% Total 8,095 2,526 839 33.2%