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Cofnod Y Trafodion the Record of Proceedings Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings Y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus The Public Accounts Committee 10/7/2017 Agenda’r Cyfarfod Meeting Agenda Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor Committee Transcripts 10/7/2017 Cynnwys Contents 4 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest 4 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note 6 Gweithredu Deddf Cyllid y GIG (Cymru) 2014: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Implementation of the NHS Finance (Wales) Act 2014: Evidence Session 44 Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar gyfer y Busnes Canlynol Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting for the Following Business Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript. 10/7/2017 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Mohammad Asghar Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Bywgraffiad|Biography Welsh Conservatives Neil Hamilton UKIP Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography UKIP Wales Vikki Howells Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Neil McEvoy Plaid Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography The Party of Wales Rhianon Passmore Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Nick Ramsay Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Bywgraffiad|Biography Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair) Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Alan Brace Cyfarwyddwr Cyllid, Llywodraeth Cymru Director of Finance, Welsh Government Dr Andrew Goodall Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol a Phrif Weithredwr GIG Cymru Director General/NHS Chief Executive Jeremy Morgan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru Wales Audit Office Matthew Mortlock Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru Wales Audit Office Huw Vaughan Thomas Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru Auditor General for Wales 3 10/7/2017 Mike Usher Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru Wales Audit Office Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Jonathan Baxter Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service Fay Bowen Clerc Clerk Claire Griffiths Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Katie Wyatt Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol Legal Adviser Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:00. The meeting began at 14:00. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] Nick Ramsay: I welcome Members to this afternoon’s meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. Headsets are available for translation and sound amplification. Please ensure any electronic devices are on silent. In an emergency, follow the directions from the ushers. One apology has been received today from Lee Waters, and there are no substitutes. Do Members have any declarations of interest they’d like to make at this point? No. Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note [2] Nick Ramsay: Item 2, and papers to note from the last meeting, and there’s quite a bit to note. First of all, the minutes of the last meeting held on 3 July—happy with that? Yes. Secondly, we have a letter—Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs have written advising that Jim Harra, director general for customer strategy and tax design, has been appointed as additional accounting officer with responsibility for the WRIT—the Welsh rate of income 4 10/7/2017 tax. This is a standard notification sent to me as Chair of the committee. Are we happy to note that letter? [3] Next are the governance arrangements at Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board and the Auditor General for Wales report, ‘An Overview of Governance Arrangements’, from 29 June. The previous committee undertook an extensive inquiry into governance arrangements at BCUHB and held regular monitoring evidence sessions with the health board and the Welsh Government as part of the follow-up work. As part of that monitoring, the previous committee also undertook an inquiry considering the overall governance of Welsh health boards and recommended that consideration for any further work on governance issues be passed to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for inclusion in that committee’s regular scrutiny of the Minister. Are Members happy to note the report and agree that we forward the report to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee to consider as part of its regular scrutiny of the Cabinet Secretary? It seems to be an appropriate committee to look at that. [4] Back to the Welsh Government’s funding of Kancoat Ltd, and we’ve got a letter from the First Minister from 28 June 2017. That was a response to my letter of 11 May regarding the ministerial code, which has been an issue that has been rumbling on. That was raised as part of the committee’s work on Kancoat. The First Minister has advised that he’ll be writing to all Cab Secs and Ministers, asking that they are mindful of decisions taken on matters outside their constituencies that might be of incidental benefit to their constituents and that if the benefit is considered significant enough, that it should be referred to the First Minister for advice on handling at the outset or at an appropriate point. Happy to note? Good. [5] And, moving on, Natural Resources Wales’s response to the committee’s report—I’m pleased to say that NRW have accepted the three recommendations contained in the committee’s report and have also provided an action plan showing how they intend to take forward each of the recommendations, including the timelines and the actions due to be completed by the end of October 2017, at which point NRW will provide an update on their progress. That’s going to be in November, and a Plenary debate on the committee’s report is scheduled for 19 July. Happy to note the response from NRW? Good stuff. 14:03 5 10/7/2017 Gweithredu Deddf Cyllid y GIG (Cymru) 2014: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Implementation of the NHS Finance (Wales) Act 2014: Evidence Session [6] Nick Ramsay: Our witnesses are waiting patiently, as we reach the substantive evidence session for today, and that is item 3, the implementation of the NHS Finance (Wales) Act 2014. This is our first evidence session, and can I welcome our witnesses? Thanks for being with us today. Just a bit of background: the auditor general’s report was published on 6 July, and the previous committee, our predecessor committee, were aware that this piece of work was going to be happening and recommended that we, the successor committee, considered any lessons arising from the report on the impact of the NHS Finance (Wales) Act 2014. As 2016-17 is the first third year following the implementation of the Act and as the 2016-17 accounts of four of the seven health boards are showing a deficit for year 3, I feel it’s important that we consider the findings of the report and discuss this with the Welsh Government. At that point, can I welcome our witnesses? Thanks for being with us today. Would you like to give your name and position for the Record of Proceedings? [7] Dr Goodall: Prynhawn da. Good afternoon. I’m Andrew Goodall, I’m the director general for health and social services. I’m the NHS Wales chief executive. [8] Mr Brace: Afternoon. Alan Brace, director of finance for health and social services. [9] Nick Ramsay: Great, thank you for that, and thank you for being with us today. Can I kick off the questions from Members? Firstly, quite a simple question: despite the announcements of extra funding, which were in response to the Nuffield Trust and Health Foundation reports, the Welsh Government has needed to allocate additional in-year funding this time; can you give an explanation for that? [10] Dr Goodall: If I start, Chair, I’m sure Alan can help me, maybe on some of the technicalities on the financial side. Obviously, we go through an annual allocation process. One thing I would emphasise from the start is that, although it can seem that our whole system and our scrutiny and even the efforts of the NHS often are placed on the allocation to come, I think we’ve been trying to organise our system in Wales and reminding everybody about the certainty that they do have for the budgets that are in place. These are significant budgets for large organisations, and they are obviously 6 10/7/2017 significant in terms of the impact and implications that they have, not least as they are approaching 50 per cent of the Welsh Government budget in overall terms. [11] So, we are, on the one hand, I think, trying to orchestrate better use of the broader allocations to respond to reports, which I’m sure we’ll touch on, like the Health Foundation and Nuffield Trust reports, which are highlighted within the review and which I think have changed some of the current approach and financial methodology of our system. We also have to ensure that we are able to respond to more immediate issues that occur during the year. Those issues may range from needing to step into areas where there have been material drug announcements, perhaps, that hadn’t been anticipated—. Certainly, if we look back to 2015-16, we had a benefit, actually, of consequentials from the UK budget and there was an opportunity for us to put in resources, which, although they were arguably in-year and additional, were quite significant enablers for us in terms of areas that we could really do a little bit differently—areas like primary care. It was the start of the intermediate care fund that colleagues will have seen referred to in previous sessions.
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