E PL UR UM IB N U U S Congressional Record United States th of America PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES OF THE 106 CONGRESS, FIRST SESSION

Vol. 145 WASHINGTON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 1999 No. 20 Senate The Senate met at 1:03 p.m. and was onment, while the Senate of the United the House managers and the White called to order by the Chief Justice of States is sitting for the trial of the articles House counsel be allowed to make ref- the United States. of impeachment exhibited by the House of erence to oral depositions during this Representatives against William Jefferson debate on pending motions. f Clinton, President of the United States. TRIAL OF WILLIAM JEFFERSON THE JOURNAL The CHIEF JUSTICE. Is there any CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE The CHIEF JUSTICE. If there is no objection? In the absence of objection, UNITED STATES objection, the Journal of proceedings of it is so ordered. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senate the trial are approved to date. Mr. LOTT. Consequently, four votes, will convene as a Court of Impeach- The majority leader is recognized. then, would occur in the 4 p.m. time- ment. The Chaplain will offer a prayer. Mr. LOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chief Jus- frame today with respect to these four tice. motions. PRAYER ORDER OF PROCEDURE We will take at least one break— The Chaplain, Dr. Lloyd John Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, if I maybe two—between now and then, Ogilvie, offered the following prayer: could take just a moment to outline and that would determine exactly when Gracious God, these days here in the how the proceedings will go this after- that series of votes would occur—once Senate are filled with crucial issues, noon, I think that would answer any differences on solutions, and eventu- we begin the process of offering and de- questions that Senators may have. We bating the motions. And we will make ally a vital vote in the impeachment will, of course, continue with the con- trial. We begin this day’s session with a determination as to exactly when sideration of articles of impeachment. those provisions would occur. the question You asked King Solomon, I am not aware of any objections made In addition, if the motion for addi- ‘‘Ask! What shall I give You?’’ We during the depositions which require tional presentation time is agreed to empathize with Solomon’s response. He motions to resolve. Therefore, I believe asked for an ‘‘understanding heart.’’ by the Senate, it would be my inten- the House managers are prepared to go We are moved by the more precise tion to adjourn the trial after today’s forward with a motion that would have translation of the Hebrew words for deliberations over until Saturday for three parts. The first would allow for ‘‘understanding heart,’’ meaning ‘‘a the parties to make their preparations, the introduction of the depositions into hearing heart.’’ then to present their presentations of evidence. The second would call Solomon wanted to hear a word from evidence on Saturday, and the trial Monica Lewinsky as a witness. And the You, Lord, for the perplexities he would then resume on Monday at 12 third part would allow for a presen- faced. He longed for the gift of wisdom noon for the closing arguments of the tation period by the parties for not to so he could have answers and direction parties. for his people. We are moved by Your extend beyond 6 hours. This motion Again, I remind all of my colleagues response, ‘‘See, I have given you a wise would be debated by the House man- to please remain standing at their and listening heart.’’ agers and the White House counsel for I pray for nothing less as Your an- not to exceed 2 hours. desks when the Chief Justice enters the swer for the women and men of this In addition, it is my understanding Chamber and leaves the Chamber. Senate. Help them to listen to Your that Senator DASCHLE intends to offer I thank my colleagues for their at- guidance and grant them wisdom for a motion that would provide for going tention. I believe we are ready to pro- their decisions. All through our history directly to the articles of impeachment ceed, Mr. Chief Justice. as a Nation, You have made good men for a vote. Mr. DASCHLE. Mr. Chief Justice, The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- and women great when they humbled ognizes Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM. themselves, confessed their need for will the majority leader yield? Your wisdom, and listened intently to Mr. LOTT. I am glad to yield to the MOTION FOR ADMISSION OF EVIDENCE, APPEAR- You. Speak Lord; we need to hear Your minority leader, Senator DASCHLE. ANCE OF WITNESSES, AND PRESENTATION OF voice. We are listening. Amen. Mr. DASCHLE. The motion would EVIDENCE The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senators allow for closing arguments, final de- Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chief will be seated. The Sergeant at Arms liberations, and then the motions on Justice, I have a motion to deliver to will make the proclamation. the two articles. the Senate. The Sergeant at Arms, James W. Mr. LOTT. Having said that, Mr. Ziglar, made proclamation as follows: Chief Justice, in order for the man- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will read the motion: Hear ye! Hear ye! Hear ye! All persons are agers to prepare debate for the mo- commanded to keep silent, on pain of impris- tions, I ask unanimous consent that The legislative clerk read as follows:

∑ This ‘‘bullet’’ symbol identifies statements or insertions which are not spoken by a Member of the Senate on the floor.

S1199

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VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1200 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 MOTION OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF one motion, but we have divided it into they are, indeed, what most deposi- REPRESENTATIVES FOR THE ADMISSION OF three parts so there will only be 2 tions are. They are discovery. They EVIDENCE, THE APPEARANCE OF WITNESSES, hours equally divided, one on each side; have long pauses in them. They are not AND THE PRESENTATION OF EVIDENCE not 2 hours equally divided on each one at all like it would be in a trial itself; Now comes the United States House of of the three divisions. We had one clar- you don’t have the opportunity to fully Representatives, by and through its duly au- thorized Managers, and respectfully submits ification I believe we have cleared up, see or explore with the witness the de- to the United States Senate its motion for and I believe now we are ready to hear meanor, the temperament, the spon- the admission of evidence, the appearance of from the managers, Mr. Chief Justice. taneity, all of those things that you witnesses, and the presentation of evidence The CHIEF JUSTICE. Very well. The normally get with an exchange. You in connection with the Impeachment Trial of Chair recognizes Mr. Manager MCCOL- have the camera simply focused on the William Jefferson Clinton, President of the LUM. witness. You don’t get to have the United States. Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM. Thank interaction you get in a courtroom. The House moves that the transcriptions you, Mr. Chief Justice. And remember, again, that we are and videotapes of the oral depositions taken As the first one up here today, I have pursuant to S. Res. 30, from the point that dealing here first with your deter- each witness is sworn to testify under oath to fiddle with the microphone, I guess; mining whether or not the President to the end of any direct response to the last it is sort of like testing. I apologize. committed the crimes of perjury and question posed by a party, be admitted into Mr. Chief Justice and Members of the obstruction of justice and then the evidence. Senate, what we have presented to you question of whether or not he should be The House further moves that the Senate today is a three-part motion, as Mr. removed from office. So I believe and authorize and issue a subpoena for the ap- LOTT has described it, and as you have we believe as House managers that you pearance of Monica S. Lewinsky before the heard read to you. We would like very should at least let us have Monica Senate for a period of time not to exceed much, as we always have, to have all eight hours, and in connection with the ex- Lewinsky here live for both of those amination of that witness, the House re- the witnesses we want presented here reasons. quests that either party be able to examine live, as we would normally have in a I also want to make comments spe- the witness as if that witness were declared trial, as the House has always believed cifically about just admitting these adverse, that counsel for the President and that it should have. into evidence. There are two obvious counsel for the House Managers be able to We came before you a few days ago reasons why, beyond the question of participate in the examination of that wit- recognizing the reality of that and whether a witness should appear live or ness, and that the House be entitled to re- went forward with your procedures to whether we should use portions of serve a portion of its examination time to re- request not 5, not 6, not 12, but 3 wit- them in whatever fashion to present to examine the witness following any examina- nesses be deposed so that we might be tion by the President. you, they certainly should be part of The House further moves that the parties able to, in the discovery process you the record. It seems self-evident. It is be permitted to present before the Senate, have allowed us, gain the depositions of part of what you gave us as the proce- for a period of time not to exceed a total of those three witnesses. Today we are be- dure to do, and it would seem to me six hours, equally divided, all or portions of fore you with motions, first, to enter that it should be a mere formality for the parts of the videotapes of the oral deposi- those depositions and the video record- me to ask, but I cannot assume any- tions of Monica S. Lewinsky, Vernon E. Jor- ings of those depositions into evidence thing—we certainly do not—that we let dan, Jr., and Sidney Blumenthal admitted formally for your consideration be- into evidence, and that the House be entitled these depositions into evidence, and to reserve a portion of its presentation time. cause they have now been accom- there are two reasons why. plished; secondly, to request that you One is the historical basis for this. Mr. LOTT addressed the Chair. provide us with the opportunity to ex- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- There has to be a record, not only for amine Monica Lewinsky live here as a ognizes the majority leader. you but for the public and for history, Mr. LOTT. I understand that the witness on the floor of the Senate, and of the entire proceeding. There is evi- pending motion is divisible, and as is for you to allow us to present the other dence in these depositions that needs my right, I ask that the motion be di- two depositions to you in some format; to be a part of the official record, and vided in the following manner: The and, if you do not allow us the permis- that evidence is not just the cold tran- first paragraph be considered division sion to have Ms. Lewinsky live here to script, but it is also the videotape with I; the second paragraph be considered examine as a witness, to allow us to all of the limited, albeit not satisfac- division II; and the final paragraph be present any or all portions of the depo- tory, portion of it that you can see and considered division III. sitions of all three of them. observe. Especially if you were to con- The CHIEF JUSTICE. It will be di- Now, I think that it is eminently fair clude we weren’t going to have any live vided in the manner indicated by the that we be allowed to present at least witness here or were not going to allow majority leader. one witness live to you, the central us to present these depositions, you Mr. LOTT. I thank the Chair. witness in the cast of this entire pro- certainly should allow the depositions Mr. DASCHLE. Mr. President, I sug- ceeding, and that is Monica Lewinsky. to be part of the record and the video- gest the absence of a quorum. I am not here to argue all of that. My tape part of it. It is evidence. It is to be The PRESIDING OFFICER. The principal discussion with you is going examined. It seems self-evident. clerk will call the roll. to be on the part dealing with just ad- But the second point is, as you are The legislative clerk proceeded to mitting these into evidence, and then going to hear more from my colleagues call the roll. my colleagues, Mr. BRYANT, Mr. in just a moment, there is new evi- Mr. LOTT. Mr. President, I ask unan- HUTCHINSON, and Mr. ROGAN are going dence in these depositions. There is imous consent that the order for the to present some complementary discus- new factual record information that quorum call be rescinded. sion about the entire motion as we go needs to be here for you to decide the The CHIEF JUSTICE. Is there any through this. guilt or innocence question of the per- objection? In the absence of objection, But in the context of all of this I jury and obstruction of justice charge. it is so ordered. think we have to recognize a couple of One illustration I would give you— Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I iden- things. One is that live witnesses are and I am sure my colleagues will give tified this as the first paragraph to be preferable whether you have deposi- you plenty more—one of them deals considered division I. Actually, that tions or not. These were discovery with the gift question. We have talked should be the second paragraph would depositions. We would have liked to about it a lot out here. If you recall be division I, the third paragraph divi- have asked for all of them to be live. with regard to the question of the gifts, sion II, and the fourth paragraph would We were recognizing reality by coming the issue is did the President obstruct be division III. I want that clarifica- down to one today, and the reasons are justice? Did he decide in the Jones tion. fairly straightforward. Some of you case, in the Jones Court, as a part of The CHIEF JUSTICE. That will be have had the privilege, and I am sure his course of conduct of trying to keep the order. you have availed yourself of the oppor- from the Court the nature of his rela- Mr. LOTT. Also, so that both sides tunity, to look at the videotapes of tionship with Monica Lewinsky to keep will understand, the motion—there is these depositions, and you see that the gifts hidden?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1201 There is new information in the depo- President, her desire to protect him, bringing papers to him, or coming up sition relative to what happened on the and her own personal views of right to see Ms. Currie. day those gifts were supposedly ex- and wrong. Now, we know that she did not carry changed between Monica Lewinsky and And she was well represented in the papers to him on these visits other Betty Currie, about the telephone call. deposition by some of Washington’s than personal, private notes from her Again, I am not going into the details finest defense attorneys who had thor- to him. And Ms. Lewinsky indicated in of that. I will leave that for my col- oughly prepared her for all questions, the deposition that she didn’t carry leagues who took the depositions. They as they should have, as well as being him official papers, although she did can tell you about it. The point is you present throughout the deposition to pass along this cover story —of car- could enumerate—and they will—new assist her. In fact, the Senator in rying papers—to her attorney, Mr. Car- evidence. There is significant relevant charge of this particular deposition had ter. She testified also that she dis- new evidence from the Vernon Jordan to warn these counsel not to coach and cussed the draft affidavit with Mr. Jor- deposition and from the Sidney not to whisper to her while she was at- dan, changes were made, she offered Blumenthal deposition. So just on the tempting to answer the questions. the President the opportunity to re- record alone, just to put the deposi- If you have seen this deposition, you view it, he declined, and, according to tions into the Record, there can be have witnessed an effective effort by a Ms. Lewinsky, he never suggested any nothing complete about this trial if we loyal supporter of the President to pro- way that she could file a truthful affi- don’t at least do that. At least do that. vide the very minimum of truth in davit, sufficient to skirt—avoid having And so with that in mind, having said order to be consistent with her own to testify. This, in spite of his answer that and urging you to do that, I will grand jury testimony, which is legally to this Senate where he told you that yield to Mr. Manager BRYANT at this necessary for her to fulfill the terms of he might have had a way for her to file point in time. her immunity agreement. a truthful affidavit and still avoid tes- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- On the perjury article of impeach- tifying in the Jones case. ognizes Mr. Manager BRYANT. ment, she reaffirmed the specific facts Yes, you can parse the words and you Mr. Manager BRYANT. Mr. Chief which happened between her and the can use legal gymnastics, but you can- Justice, distinguished colleagues and President on more than one occasion, not get around the filing of a false affi- Senators, I would encourage each of including November 15, 1995, their first davit in an effort to avoid appearing in you to consider calling Monica encounter, when the President’s con- the Jones case and possibly providing Lewinsky as the one live witness in duct fit squarely within the four cor- damaging testimony against the Presi- this proceeding. Ms. Lewinsky con- ners of the term ‘‘sexual relationship’’ dent. tinues to be, in her own way, an im- as defined in the Jones lawsuit, and Ms. Lewinsky confirmed positively pressive witness. As I spoke to you ear- this is in opposition to the President’s that Ms. Currie initiated a telephone lier, she does have a story to tell. After own sworn testimony of denial. But call to her on December 28, 1997, stat- all, no one knows more about the ma- this is one of the clearest examples of ing words—and this is about the gifts— jority of the allegations against the the President’s guilt of this charge of ‘‘I understand you have something for President other than, of course, the perjury. It is not about this twisted me.’’ Then Ms. Currie drove over to Ms. President himself. definition the President assigned to the Lewinsky’s home and picked up the At her deposition, she appeared to be term ‘‘sexual relations.’’ Rather, it is box of gifts. a different Monica Lewinsky than the his word against her word as to wheth- Now, remember, this occurred on the Monica Lewinsky whom I had met a er this specific conduct occurred. Even heels of Ms. Lewinsky’s conversation week earlier. Unlike before, she was under his own reading of this defini- with the President that very morning not open to discussion or fully respon- tion, he agrees that that specific con- about what she might do with the gifts. sive to fair inquiry. She didn’t volun- duct, if it occurred, would make him Now, the only—the only explanation is teer her story. She didn’t tell her guilty of sexual relations within that that the President is directly involved, story. Rather, she was very guarded in definition. But he simply says I did not himself, in the obstruction of justice each response and almost protective. do that; she says you did do that—a by telling Ms. Currie, who otherwise Her words were carefully chosen and ‘‘he said/she said’’ case. knew nothing about this earlier con- relatively few. At times, the concepts But this is why it is important for versation, to retrieve these items from that she discussed had the familiar you to be able to see Ms. Lewinsky in Ms. Lewinsky. Ms. Lewinsky said there ring of another key witness to these person. In the deposition you will ob- was no doubt that Ms. Currie initiated proceedings, such as ‘‘it wasn’t a lie’’ serve her as having to affirm her prior the call to retrieve the gifts. or ‘‘wasn’t false,’’ it was ‘‘misleading testimony. She had to affirm her prior Also recall that the President’s testi- or incomplete.’’ ‘‘Truth is what one be- testimony because that was what was mony from his side was that this con- lieves it is and may be different for dif- in the grand jury, and because of this, versation occurred earlier in the day ferent people.’’ ‘‘Truth depends on the she could not back away at all on her with Ms. Lewinsky but that he had told circumstances.’’ testimony. She couldn’t bend it here or her she would have to turn over what- As we progressed through her deposi- there, she couldn’t shade it in the ever gifts that she had. Now, with that tion Monday, I felt more and more like President’s favor. So what you have is advice from the President, it would be one of the characters in the classic a person, who you may well conclude is totally illogical for Ms. Lewinsky to movie ‘‘Witness For The Prosecution.’’ still wanting to help the President, have then called Ms. Currie that same I was Charles Laughton. Ms. Lewinsky having to admit to testimony that day and ask her to come pick up and was Marlene Dietrich. And the Presi- would do damage to the President, a hold these gifts. By calling Ms. Currie, dent was Tyrone Power. If you are fa- very difficult situation for her. But, Ms. Lewinsky would have been going miliar with this movie, you will under- yet, this same difficulty lends this por- against the direct instruction of the stand, and if you aren’t, you should see tion of her testimony great credibility. President to surrender any and all the movie. With respect to the other article of gifts. The facts, the logic, and common However, there was and there still re- impeachment on obstruction of justice, sense tell us all that the President’s mains truth in her testimony. Some- her credibility is again bolstered by her version is not true and that he ob- times, though, just like the President, reluctance to do legal harm to this structed justice here. and now Ms. Lewinsky, it is the literal President. In the end, though, she does Ms. Lewinsky also testified at the truth only, the most restricted and admit that he called her early one deposition about the job at Revlon and stretched definition one could reach. morning in December of 1997—actually obtaining a job offer within 2 days of And we all know that the law frowns it was 2 o’clock in the morning—and signing the affidavit. She also denied upon manipulations such as this to told her that she was on the witness that she was a stalker, as the President avoid telling the complete truth. Her list. And he told her that she might be had described her in a conversation testimony is clearly tinted, some able to file an affidavit to avoid testi- with Mr. Blumenthal in January of might even say tainted, by a mixture fying. And he told her that she could 1998. She also denied that she threat- of her continued admiration for the always use the story that she was ened the President or attempted to

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1202 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 threaten the President into having an But the first responsibility of the particularly to my colleagues, the affair. She denied that he rebuffed her factfinding of the truth-seeking en- counselors for the President, that this on the occasion of their first encounter deavor, I feel some responsibility in summary of the portions of the testi- on November 15, 1995. Again, all false that regard. Hopefully, our presen- mony of Mr. Jordan are based upon my statements that the President made to tation is helpful in seeking the truth. I handwritten notes. So, please don’t Mr. Blumenthal about her, with knowl- know, as Mr. BRYANT mentioned, that blow it up in a chart if there is some edge that Mr. Blumenthal would be tes- we all want to bring this matter to a discrepancy. I believe this is, in good tifying in a grand jury, thereby ob- conclusion. We want to see the end of faith, accurate, but I did not have a structing justice. this story. We want to have a final copy of the transcript. I was required Now, the former lawyers and judges chapter in this national drama. I un- to go to the Senate Chamber and actu- among us are familiar with what is derstand that and agree with that. But ally take notes in order to prepare this. called the best evidence rule. Stated let’s not, because we are in a hurry to There are a number of areas that I simply, the court always prefers the get to the judgment phase, let’s not let think are relevant and new informa- best available evidence to be used. In- that detract, let’s not let that short- tion and are very important for your person testimony is better than a video change, nor diminish the importance of consideration. Let me just touch upon deposition, which itself is better than the presentation and consideration of five areas. the written transcript of a deposition. the facts, and that is what I think is The first one is the job search and When all three forms of testimony are very important as we consider this mo- Mr. Jordan being an agent of the Presi- available, as they are in this situation, tion that is before us. dent. In the deposition, Mr. Jordan tes- the court will most often require the It is my responsibility to talk about tified that: witness to testify in person over the Mr. Vernon Jordan—and the need for There is no question but that through video deposition or over the written your consideration of his testimony— Betty Currie I was acting on behalf of the President to get Ms. Lewinsky a job. transcript of the deposition. whom we recently deposed. I deposed In closing, I know we all want to Mr. Vernon Jordan, Jr., and I rec- He goes on to say: work within the Senate rules and we ommend that that be received in evi- I interpreted [the request, referring from all want to ensure that these pro- Betty Currie] it as a request from the Presi- dence as part of the Senate record. dent. ceedings are concluded in a constitu- I took this deposition under the able Then he testified: tional fashion by the end of next week. guidance of Senator THOMPSON and There was no question that he asked me to It is with this in mind that we propose Senator DODD. The questioning took help [referring to the President] and that he that Ms. Lewinsky be called as a live place over almost 3 hours with numer- witness, the only person called to tes- asked others to help. I think that is clear ous and extraneous objections on be- from everybody’s grand jury testimony. tify in person, and, further, that we use half of the President’s lawyers, most of the two depositions, the video deposi- So the question is as to whether the which were resolved. information, the request, came from tions of Mr. Jordan and Mr. I believe that the testimony of Mr. Blumenthal, in lieu of their personal Betty Currie or whether it came di- Jordan goes to the key element in the rectly from the President, there is no attendance. In the event the Senate obstruction of justice article, and even does not call Ms. Lewinsky, we also question but that Mr. Jordan was act- though it is just one element that we ing at the request of the President of ask that we be permitted to use all or are dealing with, it is a very important portions of her deposition, just as we the United States and no one else. In element because it goes to the connec- fact, he goes on to say: would the other two depositions. tion between the job search, the benefit And finally, several Senators have The fact is I was running the job search, provided to a witness, and the solicited sent out a letter to the President invit- not Ms. Lewinsky, and therefore, the compa- false testimony from that witness. nies that she brought or listed were not of ing him to come here and to provide I believe the testimony of Mr. Jordan his testimony, if he so chooses. In the interest to me. I knew where I would need to is dramatic in that it shows the control event he should accept, Ms. Lewinsky, call. and direction of the President of the likewise, should be afforded the same This is very important. There has United States in the effort to obstruct opportunity. They continue to be the been a reference, ‘‘Well, he was simply justice. I believe the testimony of Mr. two most important and essential wit- getting a job referral, making a refer- Jordan provides new evidence sup- nesses for you and the American people ral for routine employment interview porting the charges of obstruction and to hear in order to finally—finally—re- by this person, Ms. Lewinsky.’’ But, in verifying the credibility of Ms. solve this matter. fact, it is clear that Mr. Jordan knew Permit us all to return to our dis- Lewinsky. whom he wanted to contact. He was tricts, and you to your States, and tell The testimony, in addition, is the running the job search as he testified our constituents that we considered most clear discussion of the facts re- to. the full and complete case, including flecting Mr. Jordan’s actions in behalf Then he testified: live witnesses and, in your case, made of the President and the President’s di- Question: You’re acting in behalf of the your vote accordingly. rection and control of the activities of President when you are trying to get Ms. At this time, I yield to my colleague Mr. Jordan, and therefore they support Lewinsky a job and you were in control of the job search? from Arkansas, Mr. HUTCHINSON. the allegations under the articles of The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- impeachment. Let me make the case The answer is: ognizes Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. for you. Yes. Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. Thank If you have the President of the So that is one area, and it is impor- you, Mr. Chief Justice. United States personally directing the tant to establish that he was an agent Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, effort to obtain a job for Ms. Lewinsky, for the President. in an effort to be helpful, I have asked which is a benefit to a witness, and si- Secondly, there was a witness list the pages to distribute to you some ex- multaneously Ms. Lewinsky is under that came out December 5. The Presi- hibits that I will be referring to as I subpoena as a witness in the case, and dent knew about it, at the latest, on consider the testimony that we are pre- thirdly, in addition, the President is December 6, and yet he had two meet- senting to you. suggesting means to that witness to ings with Mr. Jordan, on December 7 There are two aspects to an impeach- avoid truthful testimony, as evidenced and December 11. In neither one of ment trial. There is the truth-seeking by the December 17 conversation and those meetings was it disclosed to Mr. responsibility, which is the trial, in my the suggestion of the affidavit, the con- Jordan that Monica Lewinsky was a judgment, and then there is the conclu- clusion is that you have a corrupt at- witness. I am referring to the second sion, the judgment, the verdict, the tempt to impede the administration of page of the exhibits I have handed you conviction or the acquittal. If you look justice and the seeking of truth and in which Mr. Jordan testified to that at those two phases of a trial, the lat- the facts in the civil rights case. effect: ter is totally your responsibility. We Now, let me go to the testimony of Question: And on either of these conversa- leave that completely in your judg- Mr. Jordan. Has that been distributed tions that I’ve referenced, that you had with ment. now? Good. Let me give a caveat here, the President after the witness list came

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1203 out, your conversation on 12/7 and your con- His answer was: was developed because this Senate versation sometime after the 11th, did the No. granted us the opportunity to take this President tell you that Ms. Monica Lewinsky further deposition of Mr. Jordan and was on the witness list in the Jones case? So that sets the stage, because in Ms. Answer: He did not. Lewinsky’s testimony, as evidenced by the other witnesses. Question: Would you have expected the page 6 of your exhibits, she testified in And there are other, you know—the President to tell you if he had any reason to August, after the last time Mr. Jordan fifth point is that the testimony goes believe that Ms. Lewinsky would be called as testified, very clearly about this meet- to the interconnection between the job a witness in the Paula Jones case? ing on December 31 at the Park Hyatt help and the testimony that was being Answer: That would have been helpful. solicited from Ms. Lewinsky. Question: So it would have been helpful with Mr. Jordan where they had break- fast. And the discussion was about So why is the presentation nec- and it was something you would have ex- essary? Some of you might even think, pected? Linda Tripp. And then the discussion Answer: Yes. went to the notes from the President, ‘‘Well, thank you very much for that Even though it would have been help- and she said, ‘‘No, [it was] notes from explanation you have given to us. Now ful, he would have expected the Presi- me to the President.’’ And Mr. Jordan we have all the facts. Let’s go on and dent to tell him the information, it was told her, according to her testimony, vote.’’ Well, I do think there is some not disclosed to him. The materiality, ‘‘Go home and make sure they’re not merit. First of all, this is not all. There the relevance, of that is that you have there.’’ That is Ms. Lewinsky’s testi- is much more there. I just have a mo- the President controlling a job search, mony. ment to develop a portion of Mr. Jor- knowing this is a witness in which we It was important to ask Mr. Jordan dan’s testimony that I believe is help- are trying to provide a benefit for, and about this. And I assumed that we, of ful, but, secondly, it tells a story that yet the person he is directing to get course, would get simply a denial, has never been told before. Now, I went and saw the videotape the job for Ms. Lewinsky, he fails to sticking with the previous grand jury and I was underwhelmed by my ques- tell Mr. Jordan the key fact that she testimony, that unequivocally, no, tioning, because it is just not the same. is, in fact, a witness, an adverse wit- that meeting never happened: we never I thought we had a dynamic exchange. ness in that case. I think that is an im- had breakfast at the Hyatt. But then I saw it on videotape and I am portant area of his testimony. On page 7, you will notice that Ms. The third area, keeping the President Lewinsky, in her testimony, specifi- nowhere to be found. You get to look informed—very clear testimony about cally identified even what they had for at Mr. Jordan, a distinguished gen- the development of the job search, the breakfast. And so the investigation re- tleman. But it is still helpful not with- Lewinsky affidavit that was being pre- quired us to go out and get the receipt standing the difficulty of a video pres- pared, and the fact that it was signed. at the Park Hyatt, which is page 8. And entation. I respectfully request this On the third page I have provided to the receipt showed that there was a body to develop the facts fully, to hear you, Mr. Jordan’s testimony: charge on December 31 by Mr. Jordan the testimony of Mr. Jordan, to allow him to explain this that tells the story, I was keeping him [the President] informed that included every item for breakfast, about what was going on and so I told him. that corroborated the testimony of Ms. start to finish, on this one aspect of ob- struction of justice that is critical to He goes on further to say: Lewinsky as to her memory; that is, the omelette they had for breakfast. your determination. And so I would He [referring to the President] was obvi- ask your concurrence in the approval ously interested in it. And so it is tightening here. The evi- dence is becoming more clear, un- of the motion that has been offered to Then the question, I believe, was: you, and at this time I yield to Man- What did you tell the President when the equivocally, that this meeting oc- curred. And so we had to ask this of ager ROGAN. affidavit was signed? The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- And his answer: Mr. Jordan. And this is page 9. And, of course, I presented the Park Hyatt re- ognizes Mr. Manager ROGAN. Mr. President, she signed the affidavit, she Mr. Manager ROGAN. Mr. Chief Jus- signed the affidavit. ceipt, I presented the testimony of Ms. Lewinsky, and his testimony, which is tice, Members of the Senate, yesterday, So was there any connection between page 9: along with Mr. Manager GRAHAM, I had the job benefit that was provided and the privilege of conducting the deposi- the affidavit that was signed in ref- It is clear, based on the evidence here, that I was at the Park Hyatt on Dec 31st. So I do tion of Sidney Blumenthal, assistant to erence to her testimony? Clearly, it not deny, despite my testimony before the the President. That deposition was pre- was something the President not only grand jury, that on [December] 31 that I was sided over by the senior Senator from directed the job search, but he was there with Ms. Lewinsky, but I did testify Pennsylvania and the junior Senator clearly interested, obviously con- before the Grand Jury that I did not remem- from North Carolina. And on behalf of cerned, receiving regular reports about ber having a breakfast with her on that date the House managers, and I am also sure the affidavit. and that was the truth. the White House counsel, we thank Then the fourth area is the informa- But what amazed me was, as you go them for the able job that they did. tion at the Park Hyatt that was devel- through the questions with him, all of This deposition must be played for oped. To lay the stage for this—and I a sudden he remembered the breakfast Members of the U.S. Senate, and if one will do this very briefly—if you look at but all of a sudden he remembered the Senator has failed to personally sit page 4, you see the previous testimony conversation in which he before said it through this deposition—and every of Mr. Jordan before the grand jury in never happened at all. And his testi- deposition—that Senator is not March. At that time, the question was mony was, when asked about the notes: equipped to render a verdict on the im- asked of him: I am certain that Ms. Lewinsky talked to peachment trial of the President of the Did you ever have breakfast or any meal, me about [the] notes. United States. for that matter, with Monica Lewinsky at And so I think there are a number of Now, I will address very briefly just a the Park Hyatt? relevant points here. First of all, you couple of the reasons why I believe Mr. His answer was: reflect back on the testimony of Ms. Blumenthal’s deposition warrants No. Lewinsky in this same deposition in being played before this body. But to It was not equivocally, it was indubi- which she was asked the question, get- do it, it needs to be put in perspective. tably no. ting Mr. Jordan’s approval was basi- Remember what the President of the And he was further asked, and he tes- cally the same as getting the Presi- United States testified to on the day he tified: dent’s approval? Her answer: Yes. was sworn in as a witness before the I’ve never had breakfast with Monica And so that is how Ms. Lewinsky grand jury. He said that in dealing Lewinsky. viewed this. And this is what was told with his aides, he knew there was a po- And then on page 5 he goes on, in the to her at this meeting at the Park tential that they could become wit- May 28 grand jury testimony: Hyatt. It goes to credibility, it goes to nesses before the grand jury, and that Did you at any time have any kind of a what happened, it goes to the obstruc- is why he told them the truth. That is meal at the Park Hyatt with Monica tion of justice. It is extraordinarily rel- the President’s own word: the ‘‘truth.’’ Lewinsky? evant. It is new information. It is what Mr. Blumenthal’s deposition paints a

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1204 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 totally different picture and gives a stalker among her [colleagues], and that she available to those who will make the terribly different interpretation of hated it and if she had an affair or said she ultimate judgment as to the appro- what the President was doing in pass- had an affair then she wouldn’t be the stalk- priateness of the verdict, the American ing along false stories to his aides. er any more. people. Now, we have been treated to a num- And the testimony goes on. You are Mr. Chief Justice, I yield to Mr. Man- ber of euphemisms by the distinguished all familiar with it at this point. ager GRAHAM. White House counsel during their pres- The President of the United States The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- entation as to what the President was allowed his aide to appear three times ognizes Mr. Manager GRAHAM. doing during his grand jury. They de- before a Federal grand jury conducting Mr. Manager GRAHAM. Mr. Chief scribed his testimony as ‘‘maddening.’’ a criminal investigation, and never Justice, how much time? They have described his testimony as once did the President of the United The CHIEF JUSTICE. Your col- ‘‘misleading’’ and ‘‘unfortunate.’’ But States inform that aide before pro- leagues have consumed 37 minutes. the one thing they have never de- viding that information to the inves- Mr. Manager GRAHAM. Ladies and scribed it as is a lie. tigatory body—never once—asked or gentlemen of the Senate, not a whole Mr. Blumenthal gave a totally dif- told the aide that that was false infor- lot to add, but I would like to recognize ferent take on that. Because he testi- mation. Mr. Blumenthal’s testimony this thought: That we have learned a fied under oath that, upon reflection, demonstrates that the President of the great deal in these depositions. Thank he believes the President was not mad- United States used a White House aide you for letting us have them. We didn’t dening to him, the President lied to as a conduit for false information be- get everything we wanted—and I think him. And he testified so for a very good fore the grand jury in a criminal inves- that is a fair statement—but who does reason. tigation. in life? But we do appreciate you giving Remember, Sidney Blumenthal testi- I just want to make one other brief us the opportunity to explore the testi- fied three times before the grand jury point before I close this presentation mony of these witnesses because I in 1998. He testified in February and because I think it needs to be said. I think it would be helpful in setting the twice in June. But that testimony was am in no position to lecture any of the historical record straight. in a vacuum because each time he tes- distinguished Members of this body on Mr. Blumenthal, to his credit, said tified before the grand jury we were what the founders intended in drafting the President of the United States lied still in a national state of, at least pre- the Constitution. I believe all of us in to him. The President of the United sumptively, believing that the Presi- this room have an abiding respect for States did lie to him. The President of dent had told the truth. The President that. But there are a couple of points the United States, in his grand jury had made an emphatic denial as to the that need to be made. I believe there is testimony, denied ever lying to me. Monica Lewinsky story. There was no a reason the founders drafted a docu- That should be historically significant physical evidence presented to the FBI ment that allows us the opportunity in and should be legally significant. Mr. lab at the time Mr. Blumenthal testi- every trial proceeding in America to Blumenthal, to his credit, said the fied. And Monica Lewinsky was not co- confront and cross-examine live wit- President of the United States tried to operating with the grand jury. So we nesses. It is because that gives the paint himself as a victim to Ms. know that certain questions were not trier of fact the opportunity to gauge Lewinsky. That would be legally and asked of him during his grand jury tes- the credibility and the demeanor of the historically relevant and it will mean a timony because of the status of the witnesses. We have discussed that at lot in our arguments and it will be facts as we thought they were. But Mr. length during these proceedings. something you should consider. Blumenthal shed some incredible new But one thing we haven’t discussed This has been a good exercise. Thank light on the testimony that we re- and one thing that I think is impor- you very much for letting us depose ceived yesterday from him. tant—not from the House managers’ He said, first of all: After I was sub- these witnesses. perspective, but from the perspective poenaed, but before I testified before I was not at the other two deposi- of history and the history that will be the grand jury, once in February and tions, but I was at Mr. Blumenthal’s twice in June—with the President written on the ultimate verdict in this deposition, and I can assure you we knowing he was about to become a wit- case—and that is the idea of open know more now about what the truth ness before the grand jury, a criminal trials. There is a reason why the found- is than before we started this process. grand jury investigation—the Presi- ers looked askance on the concept of I hope at the end of the day it is our dent never came to him and said, ‘‘Mr. secret trials and closed trials. There is desire to get to the truth that guides Blumenthal, before you go and provide a reason why in every courtroom us all. We are asking for one live wit- information in a criminal grand jury across the land trials are open. They ness, Ms. Lewinsky. investigation, I need to recant the false are open. It is an open process. The Let me tell you, I know how difficult stories I told you about my relation- light of truth is allowed to be shown on it is to want this to go on given where ship with Monica Lewinsky.’’ the courtroom and from the courtroom everybody is at in the country. Trust And he testified about those false because we don’t trust the credibility me, I want this to end as much as you stories. He corroborated his own testi- of a verdict if it is done in secret. What do. However, there is a signal we will mony from earlier proceedings. You would be the verdict on this proceeding send if we don’t watch it. We will make will recall from the record that the day if the judgment of this body is based the independent counsel report the im- the Monica Lewinsky story broke in upon testimony and witnesses, on vid- peachment trial, and I am not so sure the national press Mr. Blumenthal was eotapes, locked in a room somewhere, that is what the statute was written called to the Oval Office by the Presi- available only to the triers of fact for. dent. The door was closed. They were without the public being privy to what The key difference between the alone. And this is what the President was made available? House and the Senate is that the White told Sidney Blumenthal about the rev- Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, House never disputed the facts over in elations that were breaking that day I would urge you, not for the sake of the House. They never disputed the on the national press wire: the managers and not for the sake of facts. They called 15 witnesses to talk He said, ‘‘Monica Lewinsky came at me the presentation of the case, but for about process and about the interpreta- and made a sexual demand on me.’’ the sake of this body and for the ver- tions that you would want to put on The President said he rebuffed her. dict of history that will be written, to those facts. In their motion to the Sen- He said: please allow this to be a public trial in ate, everything is in dispute. It is a to- I’ve gone down that road before, I’ve the real sense. If the witnesses will not tally different ball game here. That is caused pain for a lot of people and I’m not be brought here live before the Senate, why we need witnesses, ladies and gen- going to do that again. please allow the doors of the Senate to tlemen, to clarify who said what, who The President said Monica Lewinsky be open so that the testimony upon is being honest, who is not, and what threatened him: which each of you must base your ver- really did happen in this sordid tale. She said that she would tell people they’d dict will be made available not only to Ms. Lewinsky comes before us be- had an affair, that she was known as the all 100 Senators, but will be made cause the allegations arise that the

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1205 President of the United States, with an that means releasing any of this the witnesses, unfair to the public, un- intern, had an inappropriate workplace videotaped material to the public. fair to the Senate and, we submit, un- sexual relationship that was discovered We can only call the Senate’s atten- fair to the President as well. in a lawsuit where he was a defendant. tion to section 206 of Senate Resolution We do not object to release of the This was not us or anyone else trying 30, which instructs the Secretary of the written transcripts of this testimony; to look into the President’s private life Senate ‘‘to maintain the videotaped we support that release. And we believe for political reasons or any other rea- and transcribed records of the deposi- that that satisfies any reasonable re- son. It was a defendant in a lawsuit tion as confidential proceedings of the quirement of public access to the infor- asking to look at the behavior of that Senate.’’ That was the intention of the mation. The public’s right to know and defendant in the workplace, something Senate when you first passed Resolu- understand what is happening in this that goes on every day in courtrooms tion 30. If this decision as proposed impeachment trial would be respected. throughout the country. today will result in overruling that But we should learn a lesson from And is it uncomfortable? Yes, it is rule, if there is any risk or danger of a America’s experience in the House of uncomfortable. If you have ever tried a wholesale, unconditional, and unlim- Representatives: More is not always sexual harassment case, an assault ited release of these videotapes for the better. case, or a rape case, it is very much un- public through the national media, just It is not wise or right for the House comfortable to have to listen to these as was done by the House of Represent- or the Senate to perform the function things. But the reason that people are atives when it released all the Starr of a mere conveyor belt simply and asked to do what you are asked to do materials, we think it is a bad idea. automatically transmitting unfiltered by the House managers is that the In retrospect, most people believe evidence into the public domain. It is folks that are involved represented that it was a mistake for the House to not wise or right to suspend judgment themselves much better than lawyers release those materials—and those ma- and turn over for public viewing the talking about what happened. And if terials included videotaped grand jury videotaped testimony of private wit- you find it uncomfortable listening to testimony—and we believe it would be nesses who are forced to appear and Ms. Lewinsky, think how juries feel, a mistake for the Senate, at the re- testify under compulsion. It is simply think how the victims feel, think how quest of the House managers, to do the wrong to release videotapes of such tes- somebody like Ms. Jones must feel not same thing with these videotaped ma- timony for cable news networks or for to be able to tell the story of the per- terials now. To release these video- friends or foes to use as they want. son they are suing. tapes generally to the public—which This, I submit, is profoundly unfair to That is a signal that is going to be will happen if they are put into the the witnesses. sent here that will be a devastating record—inevitably will surely cause One can only ask, who really benefits and bad signal. If we can’t stomach it, consternation among those members of from this kind of practice? Is it really if we can’t stomach listening to inap- the public, particularly parents who do in the public interest for the Senate to propriate sexual conduct, why do we not choose to spend one more moment, issue and serve a subpoena on private put that burden on anyone else? much less hours and even days, think- individuals like Monica Lewinsky, or Give us this witness. We will do it in ing about the President’s relationship Vernon Jordan, to summon these citi- a professional manner. We will focus on with Monica Lewinsky and explaining zens before the Senate to compel their the obstruction. We will try to do it in it again to the children. Placing these testimony before video cameras and a way not to demean the Senate. We videotapes in the formal record of this then to take that videotaped testi- will try to do it in a way not to demean trial will be one step closer to releasing mony, without any consideration or Ms. Lewinsky. We will try to do it in a the tapes to the public for immediate thought about the legitimate personal way to get to the truth. Please give us broadcast. And if that release occurs, it concerns or interests of those wit- a chance to present our case in a per- will produce an avalanche of unwel- nesses, and release those videotapes of suasive fashion, because unlike the come deposition testimony into the that testimony for the national media? House, everything is in dispute here. public domain. Is it really in Ms. Lewinsky’s interest Thank you very much. I reserve the The videotaped testimony of Ms. to do this, or in the interest of her fam- balance of my time. Lewinsky, Mr. Jordan, and Mr. ily or her future? Is it fair to Mr. Jor- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The House Blumenthal will be forced, hour after dan or to his family to subject him to managers reserve the balance of their hour, unbidden and uninvited, into the this kind of treatment? Is it really in time. living rooms and family rooms of the the Senate’s interest? Is it in the inter- The Chair recognizes Counsel CRAIG. Nation. Make no mistake about what est of the Constitution, or the Presi- Mr. Counsel CRAIG. Mr. Chief Jus- would happen; we have seen it before. dency, or of the American people to tice, ladies and gentlemen of the Sen- We can expect to see the networks play have a videotape of Monica Lewinsky ate, I have divided my presentation these tapes, wall-to-wall, nonstop, and readily available for all the world to into three parts that fortunately cor- without interruption, over the air- see and to hear? respond to the three parts of the mo- waves. This would be a repeat of what What about those individuals who tion that is before you today. happened when the case first came to are, in fact, truly innocent but who I would like, first, to argue against the House of Representatives. For the will surely suffer if these videotapes admitting videotape evidence into the Senate to decide to include the video- are released to the public for perma- record of this trial. Secondly, I would tapes of this deposition testimony, as nent residence in the public domain? like to argue against calling live wit- opposed to the written transcripts in What about the members of the Presi- nesses to this trial. And thirdly, I the formal record of this trial, would dent’s immediate family? How can the would like to argue against the pro- have the same effect and could result Senate contemplate releasing Ms. posed presentation of videotape and in this kind of release. The picture, Lewinsky’s videotaped testimony, dis- deposition testimony for Saturday. voices, and words on these tapes would cussing her relationship with the Presi- I sound rather negative. I don’t mean flow directly and irreversibly into the dent, without giving at least some to be negative. But we don’t find much life of the Nation. In addition, these thought to the impact that this might to recommend the three proposals that videotapes will, no doubt, be edited and have on the members of that family? the House managers have brought be- excerpted and cut and spliced, and the You can be sure that the release of this fore you today. materials will not only be overused, testimony and of this videotape will Let me begin by saying that we sup- they will also be inevitably abused. only add to their agony, embarrass- port the idea of admitting written To take advantage of these wit- ment, and humiliation. transcripts of deposition testimony of nesses, I submit to you, in this way is I only hope that those who purport to these three witnesses into the record of wrong—whether in the context of the be concerned about the moral damage this trial. But we believe that it would grand jury proceeding where confiden- that can be attributed to the Presi- be a terrible mistake and wholly redun- tiality is promised, or whether testi- dent’s conduct and example are equally dant to put the videotape testimony fying under subpoena in an impeach- mindful of the hurt that will be in- into that record as well, particularly if ment trial in the Senate. It is unfair to flicted on innocent people by the mere

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1206 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 broadcasting of these videotapes and of perhaps the most important question lawyers know better than anyone that their existence in perpetuity in the for the Senate to consider and resolve live witnesses can make all the dif- public record and the public domain. itself is whether calling live witnesses ference in a trial. There is just no dis- We think it is perfectly appropriate might, in fact, tarnish the Senate as an puting that point. and, no doubt, helpful to many Sen- institution. This is a question that But that abstract question is not the ators and staffers to be able to watch only you can resolve, the Members of real live question that the Senate has the deposition testimony of these three the Senate. And you certainly need not before it today. The issue before the witnesses on videotape as part of the take instructions from me or from any Senate today is different. It is more Senate’s trial proceeding, but that of us at this table on that subject. But specifically whether these three wit- function has now been satisfied. There the question is worth asking: Will the nesses, each one of whom has testified is no need for these tapes to be broad- public’s respect for the Senate and for on multiple occasions under oath be- cast to the public. And the public the Members of this body be enhanced fore the Federal grand jury, or have knows better than anyone. It is for by calling live witnesses? Does the Sen- been interviewed on multiple occasions that precise reason that one suspects ate really feel a need or an obligation by lawyers and law enforcement offi- that three-quarters of those polled, ac- or some requirement to bring Ms. cers, would have anything whatsoever cording to a survey reported in yester- Lewinsky to sit here and testify in the to add to this trial if they were to ap- day’s New York Times, oppose releas- well of this historic Chamber? pear before you in person. The answer ing the videotaped testimony of Ms. The managers first argued that live to that question is clearly no. The answer is no—not because Ms. Lewinsky and Mr. Jordan and Mr. witnesses were necessary to resolve Lewinsky has already been interviewed Blumenthal to the public. conflicts of testimony, that the only I urge you to not vote to place these so many times and has testified so way to reconcile disparities and dif- materials into the record of this trial many times, not because she was just without giving careful consideration to ferences in testimony was to bring in interviewed a few weekends ago, and these interests and to these concerns. live witnesses. Today we know that is not because she appeared and answered These are not just the interests and not true. You gave the managers an op- the House managers’ questions under concerns of the President and the portunity to resolve those conflicts and oath for many hours just 4 days ago. members of his family. They are not find new facts. But most of the critical The answer is no because if you watch just the interests and concerns of these conflicts that existed a week ago still the videotape of her testimony, and if three witnesses and the members of exist today. you look at the videotape of the testi- their families. I think they are also the Calling Monica Lewinsky to testify a mony of Mr. Jordan and Mr. interests and concerns of the American 24th time is not likely to resolve those Blumenthal, you realize and you know people as well. conflicts. Then we were told that we deep in your bones that calling these The bottom line, ladies and gentle- must look into the eyes of the wit- witnesses to testify personally before men of the Senate, is simple: You do nesses and observe their demeanor to you in the Senate in detail would sim- not need these videotapes released to make a judgment as to credibility. But ply be a massive waste of this Senate’s do your constitutional duty, and the you now have the opportunity to ob- time. people we all work for do not want serve almost every major witness as he You already know the facts. You these videotapes released to them. or she testifies. Precious little is left to have already read what they have had Please draw the line. the imagination or to guess or to ques- to say on many different occasions. As for the issue of witnesses, we be- tion the credibility, and you certainly And you have already seen and read lieve that there is no useful purpose have a better chance of observing de- their most recent testimony under served by calling live witnesses to tes- meanor through the videotape than oath. It simply can no longer be tify before the Senate in this trial. you do with a witness here on the floor credibly argued that you need testi- Live witnesses will not advance the of the Senate. mony from these witnesses to ‘‘flesh’’ factual record. We have known the We are now given a third reason why out the factual record or to resolve facts for many months. Nor will live live witnesses are absolutely necessary conflicts or to fill in the evidentiary witnesses give us new insight into the to this trial to go forward; that is to gaps or to look the witnesses in the eye witnesses themselves. Sidney ‘‘validate’’ the testimony of these wit- and assess their credibility. All that Blumenthal’s fourth appearance, nesses. has been done many times before by Vernon Jordan’s seventh appearance, According to Mr. Manager HYDE, the many lawyers before and by many law and Monica Lewinsky’s twenty-third depositions have been successful, but enforcement officers many months ago. appearance told us really very little ‘‘what we need now is to validate the And then it was done just recently that was new. I take issue with the record that already exists under oath again by House managers as they took presentation of the managers. Why about obstruction of justice and per- their deposition testimony last week. should we expect Mr. Blumenthal’s jury.’’ The Senate has given the managers fifth appearance, Mr. Jordan’s eighth Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, every opportunity to persuade the Sen- appearance, and Ms. Lewinsky’s twen- we on this side of the House have never ate and the Nation to see this case the ty-fourth appearance to add anything challenged that record. We have always same way they see it. And the man- more? Live witnesses will simply not agreed that the witnesses said what the agers have run a vigorous and ener- serve the interests of fairness. They record says they said, and that record getic campaign aimed at capturing the will not serve the interests of the needs no further validation through Senate and changing American public American people, and they will not the live testimony of individual wit- opinion. How many times do you know serve the interests of the Senate. In nesses. of where the prosecutors base their fact, live testimony from these three Those of us who have made a career case on a multimillion-dollar criminal individuals—or from Ms. Lewinsky of being lawyers and trying cases prob- investigation involving multiple inter- alone—will be worse than an exercise ably understand better than anyone rogations of witnesses, producing 60,000 in redundancy and will be an exercise else why the House managers are so ad- pages of documents, generating 19 in excess. It will only postpone the end amant in their desire to call live wit- boxes of evidence, when the prosecu- of the trial that nobody wants anymore nesses. It keeps the door open if only tors are allowed to go back to those and that no one wants to prolong any for a few more days. As Mr. Kendall ob- witnesses again and again and again in longer. There is every reason, finally served last week, like Mr. Micawber in an effort to maybe—somehow maybe— and at long last, to bring the trial to a David Copperfield, they hope against in some way to make their case, cov- close. And calling live witnesses, I sub- hope that something may turn up. ering the same territory, presenting mit, will not be quick, and it will not As an abstract proposition, the im- the same evidence, hour after hour? In be easy. It will prevent the Senate portance of live witnesses cannot be fact, in our view, the Senate has in- from keeping its pledge to bring this disputed. They are important to pros- dulged the managers. And despite the trial to a conclusion by February 12. ecutors who are trying to make a case. misgivings of many Senators, the Sen- Because live witnesses are unneces- They are important to defense lawyers ate has leaned over backwards to ac- sary for the resolution of this matter, who are trying to defend a case. Trial commodate the managers.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1207 We believe it is time for the Senate deposition testimony of Ms. Lewinsky, minute recess. I think we can address to say it is time to vote. Given the Mr. Jordan, and Mr. Blumenthal. This that question during this recess. state of the record compiled by the Of- would be unfortunate because it would There being no objection, at 2:22 p.m. fice of Independent Counsel, given the require a full response from the White the Senate recessed until 2:44 p.m.; discovery that has already been given House—presumably our own collection whereupon, the Senate reassembled to the managers, the evidence is as it of snippets aimed at putting the man- when called to order by the Chief Jus- is, and it is not likely to change in any agers’ excerpts into some kind of con- tice. significant way. The moment of truth text. This would be a dual of snippets The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- can no longer be avoided, and the Sen- and excerpts, and presumably each side ognizes the majority leader. ate should move to make the decision. in the course of the presentation would Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I be- President Clinton is not guilty of conduct a guided tour for the Senate lieve that there is time remaining for having committed high crimes and through that evidence, although I must arguments by the White House counsel, misdemeanors. He should not be re- say that the language of the motion and then at their conclusion, by the moved from office. The Senate must leaves that open to some doubt. House managers. After that, I will act now to end this impeachment trial The language of the motion provides make an attempt to explain to the Sen- finally and for all time. no opportunity for argument, no oppor- ate exactly what is in the motions, be- Finally, as to the proposed pro- tunity for explanation, and simply cause there seems to be some degree of ceedings for Saturday, Senate Resolu- talks about playing a total of 6 hours question about that. Then we will be tion 30 gives the House managers and equally divided, all or portions of the prepared to have a series of votes at White House counsel an opportunity to parts of the videotapes. that time. I still believe we should be ‘‘make a presentation’’ to the Senate Is this the kind of way that your able to start that around 4 o’clock. I time is best used in this enterprise? We employing all or portions of the video- yield the floor. fully understand the House managers’ tape of the deposition testimony. And The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- desire—and even share it—to highlight the final portion of the motion involves ognizes Mr. Craig. and explain the importance of certain Mr. Counsel CRAIG. Mr. Chief Jus- a request that the parties be permitted testimony that came out of the deposi- tice, we have completed our presen- to present before the Senate for a pe- tions over the past few days. But in tation. Thank you. riod of time not to exceed a total of 6 truth, there are no bombshells in that The CHIEF JUSTICE. The House hours equally divided all or portions of testimony. There is no dynamite. managers have 19 minutes remaining. the parts of the videotapes of the oral There are no explosions. We believe The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager depositions of Ms. Lewinsky, Mr. Jor- that highlighting, explaining, and call- BRYANT. dan, and Sidney Blumenthal that have ing attention to those parts of that tes- Mr. Manager BRYANT. Mr. Chief been admitted into evidence. timony that are important can be done Justice, I will respond briefly, to be fol- We are convinced that such a presen- with the transcripts, and the tran- lowed by Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM, who tation would provide no new informa- scripts more than satisfy the require- will be followed by Mr. Manager tion to the Senate and would only ment that we see, or the need to con- HUTCHINSON. serve to delay this trial and further duct that function, carry out that func- Let me first talk quickly about Mr. burden the service of the Senate. Craig’s argument about disagreeing on We also believe that there is a poten- tion. That is what ordinary lawyers do when they are trying cases or arguing the admission of the video depositions. tial for unfairness that lurks in the He cited the House proceedings, and we process of excerpting and presenting in front of a jury. To the extent that the managers want to be clear as to our belief of our portions of individual videotape testi- wish to call attention to various as- position in the House in this process, mony out of context. We remain com- pects of the testimony, we think they as the accusatory branch of the Gov- mitted to the notion that to be fair to will have ample time to do so in the ernment in this process, and I think all sides, the videotapes, if they are course of their final argument. Tradi- that is the case because we vote by a used, must be shown in their entirety tionally, that is the time to do that, majority vote, we chose to bring for- or shown not at all. And, above all, we during closing arguments, the time for ward the case that we felt established do not believe these videotapes should advocates in a trial to marshal their the allegations of impeachment. There was no conflict of evidence be released to the public in any form evidence, to summarize and comment brought forward from those House pro- which would of course occur if they on that evidence; and to allow the ceedings. This evidence was not chal- were used as part of the presentation managers to go through the deposition lenged until we came to this body, the on Saturday. testimony first would be tantamount appropriate body, for resolving the evi- Senators have themselves been re- to giving the managers two closing ar- viewing the videotaped deposition tes- guments. dence and trying the case, as you will. timony of the witnesses at great length In summary, Mr. Chief Justice, I That is evidenced by the constitutional and in great detail over the past 4 days. have a point of parliamentary inquiry I requirement that you must vote con- It appears to us that the Senate has would direct to the Chair having to do viction based on two-thirds of your been very conscientious in carrying out with the first paragraph, the first sec- body. But the actual conflict was not this assignment. And within a matter tion of the proposed motion submitted presented until we arrived here in the of days, Senators will listen to final ar- by the House managers. Is there any Senate. By allowing us to have this guments from each side. way that the Senate can deal first with procedure of taking depositions, we Is there really a need for an inter- the question, the first question being have focused more clearly on resolving mediate stage involving the playing of bifurcated? Is there any way the Sen- those particular conflicts. videotape testimony of the very same ate can bifurcate this first question I might add also in response to Mr. evidence? After conscientiously review- and a separate vote be taken first on Craig’s statement that the Starr Re- ing the videotape testimony and read- including the transcripts of the deposi- port was released out to the public and, ing the transcripts of that testimony, tion testimony in the record of the as a result of that, there may be danger should Senators now be required to sit trial and, second, whether the video- here in releasing these video deposi- and watch and listen to more of the tapes should also be included in the tions. But let me tell you about the same? Such an exercise would only be record? House vote on the Starr Report. Sev- cumulative and causes us to ask what The CHIEF JUSTICE. A preemptive enty percent of the Democrats sup- the point would be. We just do not motion to that effect could be made by ported the release of those documents; think that additional presentations of any Senator. 100 percent of the Democratic leader- the same evidence that Senators have Mr. Counsel CRAIG. Thank you. ship in the House supported the release been reviewing over the past few days RECESS of those documents. So it was not just will be that helpful to the process. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The majority one party over the other party that Presumably, the House managers leader. threw these out to the public. It was a seek to present a collection of Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask decision that was a bipartisan decision snippets—the greatest hits from the unanimous consent that we take a 15- on the part of the House.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1208 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 I might add, that is not our interest not break the law—not talking about both sides can present their case. That in doing this with video depositions. whether he should be removed from of- is how it is traditionally done. There is We are open to your process, but we fice—if you believe he did not break nothing unusual about that. And cer- must conclude by those who would the law, that he did not commit the tainly the White House defense lawyers argue that perhaps you should open crimes of perjury and obstruction of will be very vigilant in making sure your debate to the public, we don’t see justice, that means you must have con- that it is fairly presented. the consistency in trying to take a cluded that Monica Lewinsky was not There was objection that was made— very important part of the evidence in telling the truth when she said about and this is overlapping a little bit—as this case and not opening that to the the false affidavit, ‘‘I knew what he to the public release of the video. Our public. So we are at your wishes. It is meant,’’ when she said about the con- motion really goes to introducing into our desire to make the presentation cealment of the gifts, ‘‘Betty called evidence. It is up to you as to how that using all or portions of these video me,’’ when she said about the nature of evidence is handled. Customarily in a depositions and to use those as fully as their relationship, ‘‘It began the night trial, when something is entered into we would any other evidence. we met,’’ and many other things. evidence, that is released. But there With that said, I ask Mr. Manager You, I would submit, my colleagues was concern expressed about the wit- MCCOLLUM to follow me. in the Senate, have a moral obligation nesses, about Mr. Jordan and the fact The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- to allow Monica Lewinsky to come that he has testified and now it would ognizes Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM. here and be judged on her credibility, be made public. I recall the White Mr. Manager MCCOLLUM. Thank you not just by you but by the public, by House defense lawyers, on this screen very much, Mr. Chief Justice. all of us, as a live witness. And cer- over here, put Mr. Jordan’s video up If you listen to the White House tainly, barring that, you have an obli- there for the world to see. I believe counsel, the simple fact is, they don’t gation to have the credibility on the they also brought in other witnesses on want a public display in any form of issues of guilt or innocence of these video that was put out there for the any testimony here in front of the Sen- crimes be judged by everybody, at the whole world to see. And so I think it is ate. They don’t want the public to have very least, by the presentation of these a little bit late to come in and say that an opportunity to have a public trial. videos in a public, open format here in that should not be subject to public Now, maybe an impeachment trial is the Senate before everybody. And I discussion. not exactly the same as any other think it is a powerful question you And so I think that the motion that trial, but in the history of the Senate, have to resolve. is presented is reasonable, it is fair. it has been a basically open process, ex- And I would submit one last point. They say there is nothing of dynamite cept for the voting. It has been an op- For those of you who do believe the or there is nothing explosive. Then if portunity for witnesses to come before President is guilty of these crimes, you that is the case, there should not be you. It has been an opportunity for have an obligation to let the showing any objection to the discussion and the people to be heard. It has been an op- of these depositions, or the presen- fair playing of that evidence. But in portunity for the public to hear the tation preferably of Monica Lewinsky fact much of this is due because it was people who want to speak. live, so those who maybe don’t think not developed after the President made White House counsel didn’t just say, the same way you do have an oppor- his grand jury appearance. Many of ‘‘We don’t want live witnesses here.’’ tunity for that credibility to be judged. these witnesses testified early. They They said, ‘‘We don’t want you to be Only if the witnesses are present can were not able to testify again after the able to admit even into evidence the they be judged that way. President’s grand jury testimony. So I videotape that might become public, The most remarkable thing about the think there are new areas that have and we don’t want you to be able to White House presentation may have certainly been developed. show any portion, or all even, of the been, just a moment ago, the admission With that, Mr. Chief Justice, I yield videotapes of the depositions that have that normally in trials this is exactly back. been taken.’’ what happens. And I present to you the The CHIEF JUSTICE. Will the House If a Republican had gotten up and suggestion, this is exactly what should managers yield back? said that, we would have probably got- happen here today. Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. Yes, Mr. ten hung on some political petard for I yield to Manager HUTCHINSON. Chief Justice. that. The reality is, the public has a The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- business here. This is a trial. I suggest ognizes Manager HUTCHINSON. ognizes the majority leader. and submit to you, we need—you Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. Thank Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, then all need—the opportunity to hear these you, Mr. Chief Justice. time has been yielded back on both witnesses one way or the other—pref- Very briefly, I was asked to respond sides? erably Monica Lewinsky live. We need to the last argument by counsel for the The CHIEF JUSTICE. Yes. to bring closure in this matter. President in regard to their objections Mr. LOTT. We had expected this How can the public come to closure? on the evidentiary presentation of 6 would take a little bit longer. (Laugh- How can those who feel so emotionally, hours under the motion, which would ter.) as we know they do, around the coun- be, I believe, on Saturday. After 6 days Mr. Chief Justice, I believe it would try come to closure on this—which we of opening statements in this trial, and be of interest to the Senators that we need for them to do as much as you after 2 days of questions and answers, give just a brief explanation of the mo- need to resolve and we need to have and then we had, I believe, 2 days of tions. I believe Senator DASCHLE may you resolve the questions before you— motion arguments, you have heard have an additional motion that he how can they come to closure? How can from all the lawyers more than you would like to offer. So that we can we all come to closure without an op- ever wanted to hear. And I don’t think make sure he has had the time to pre- portunity for the public to participate, that it is too much to ask for 6 hours pare that, and how we would go into in one way or another, in seeing the of discussion of the evidentiary record the voting procedure, I suggest the ab- credibility, judging the witnesses, that was developed from the deposition sence of a quorum. judging the truth of this? testimony. I think that is reasonable. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will Let me remind you, there is nothing It’s been argued that, well, you know, call the roll. in these depositions that contains any it is going to be snippets, it is going to The assistant legislative clerk pro- salacious material, so it has been con- be a battle of snippets. ceeded to call the roll. strained very delicately—nothing at all If this motion is passed, it will be in- Mr. LOTT. Mr. President, I ask unan- that would be offensive to anybody. troduced into evidence, and each side imous consent that the order for the In addition, think about this for a will have an opportunity to discuss quorum call be rescinded. minute. When it comes to calling that evidence, to contrast it with other The CHIEF JUSTICE. Without objec- Monica Lewinsky live, when it comes individuals’ testimony, and to present tion, it is so ordered. to letting the deposition be presented, it in a fashion that is most understand- Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, very if you believe that the President did able. It is equally divided; therefore, briefly, I believe that Senator

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1209 DASCHLE, or one of his Senators, will Moynihan Santorum Thomas MURRAY SUBSTITUTE FOR DIVISION III have a peremptory motion that they Murkowski Sarbanes Thompson Mrs. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, I Murray Schumer Thurmond will offer, and it will be read by the Nickles Sessions Torricelli send a substitute for division III to the clerk; then there will be a vote on that. Reed Shelby Voinovich desk. And then there will be a vote on the 3 Reid Smith (NH) Warner The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will divisions that have been identified— Robb Smith (OR) Wellstone report. Roberts Snowe Wyden the 3 votes on the one motion—and Rockefeller Specter The legislative clerk read as follows: then I believe Senator DASCHLE will Roth Stevens The Senator from Washington, Mrs. MUR- also have a motion that will go The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote, RAY, moves that the following shall be sub- straight to debate and closing argu- the yeas are 100, the nays are 0. Divi- stituted for division III: ments and the vote on the articles of sion I of the motion is agreed to. I move that the parties be permitted to present before the Senate, for a period of impeachment. Is that a correct recita- VOTE ON DIVISION II tion? The CHIEF JUSTICE. The next vote time not to exceed a total of six hours, equally divided, all or portions of the parts I yield to Senator DASCHLE. will be on Division II of the motion. of the written transcriptions of the deposi- Mr. DASCHLE. Mr. Chief Justice, I The clerk will read Division II of the tions of Monica S. Lewinsky, Vernon E. Jor- appreciate the Senator yielding. As I motion. dan, Jr., and Sidney Blumenthal. understand it, Senator MURRAY’s mo- The assistant legislative clerk read The CHIEF JUSTICE. Very well. tion will relate to the third motion, as follows: The Parliamentarian advises me that which is, as I understand it, the motion Division II: The House further moves that there are 2 hours of argument on this that allows for video excerpts to be the Senate authorize and issue a subpoena motion. Who is the proponent? used. Her motion would restrict both for the appearance of Monica S. Lewinsky Mr. DASCHLE. Mr. Chief Justice, I managers to transcripts, written tran- before the Senate for a period of time not to exceed eight hours, and in connection with ask unanimous consent that the time scripts. I am not sure in which order the examination of that witness, the House be yielded back. her motion should be offered, but since requests that either party be able to examine The CHIEF JUSTICE. Without objec- it relates to the third one, perhaps it the witness as if the witness were declared tion, it is so ordered. would be in concert with that motion. adverse, that counsel for the President and The CHIEF JUSTICE. This is the mo- counsel for the House Managers be able to I think the clerk should read division tion to debate and divide the third mo- participate in the examination of that wit- III, having read the proposed sub- tion. ness, and that the House be entitled to re- stitute. Mr. DASCHLE. That’s correct. serve a portion of its examination time to re- The legislative clerk read as follows: Mr. LOTT. We would vote on the first examine the witness following any examina- The House further moves that the parties paragraph, the second paragraph, and tion by the President. be permitted to present before the Senate, then there would be a motion at that The CHIEF JUSTICE. The yeas and for a period of time not to exceed a total of nays are automatic. The clerk will call six hours, equally divided, all or portions of point by Senator MURRAY and a vote on the roll. the parts of the videotapes of the oral deposi- that, and a vote then on the third divi- The assistant legislative clerk called tions of Monica S. Lewinsky, Vernon E. Jor- sion, and then a vote on the articles of the roll. dan, Jr., and Sidney Blumenthal admitted impeachment itself. The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 30, into evidence, and that the House be entitled VOTE ON DIVISION I nays 70, as follow: to reserve a portion of its presentation time. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The question is [Rollcall Vote No. 10] The CHIEF JUSTICE. Now the clerk on division I. The clerk will read Divi- [Subject: Division II of House managers will read the substitute again. sion I. motion regarding appearance of witnesses] The legislative clerk read as follows: The legislative clerk read as follows: YEAS—30 I move that the parties be permitted to The House moves that the transcriptions Abraham Frist Lugar present before the Senate for a period of and videotapes of the oral depositions taken Ashcroft Gramm Mack time not to exceed a total of six hours, pursuant to Senate resolution 30 from the Bond Grams McCain equally divided, all or portions of the parts point that each witness is sworn to testify Bunning Hagel McConnell of the written transcriptions of the deposi- under oath to the end of any direct response Burns Hatch Murkowski tions of Monica S. Lewinsky, Vernon E. Jor- to the last question posed by a party be ad- Cochran Helms Nickles dan, Jr., and Sidney Blumenthal. Craig Hutchinson Santorum mitted into evidence. Crapo Inhofe Smith (NH) The CHIEF JUSTICE. The yeas and The CHIEF JUSTICE. The yeas and DeWine Kyl Specter nays are automatic. The question is on nays are required. Fitzgerald Lott Thompson the substitute. The clerk will call the The clerk will call the roll. NAYS—70 roll. The legislative clerk called the roll. Akaka Enzi Moynihan The legislative clerk called the roll. The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 100, Allard Feingold Murray The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 27, nays 0, as follows: Baucus Feinstein Reed nays 73, as follows: [Rollcall Vote No. 9] Bayh Gorton Reid Bennett Graham [Rollcall Vote No. 11] [Subject: Division I of House managers Robb Biden Grassley Roberts [Subject: Murray motion to substitute motion regarding admission of evidence] Bingaman Gregg Rockefeller division III of the House motion] YEAS—100 Boxer Harkin Roth Breaux Hollings Sarbanes YEAS—27 Abraham Craig Hollings Brownback Hutchison Schumer Akaka Harkin Mikulski Akaka Crapo Hutchinson Bryan Inouye Biden Inouye Murray Allard Daschle Hutchison Byrd Jeffords Sessions Bingaman Johnson Reed Ashcroft DeWine Inhofe Campbell Johnson Shelby Boxer Kennedy Reid Baucus Dodd Inouye Chafee Kennedy Smith (OR) Campbell Kerrey Robb Bayh Domenici Jeffords Cleland Kerrey Snowe Conrad Landrieu Rockefeller Bennett Dorgan Johnson Collins Kerry Stevens Daschle Lautenberg Sarbanes Biden Durbin Kennedy Conrad Kohl Thomas Dodd Levin Snowe Bingaman Edwards Kerrey Coverdell Landrieu Thurmond Dorgan Lincoln Torricelli Bond Enzi Kerry Daschle Lautenberg Torricelli Boxer Feingold Kohl Dodd Leahy Voinovich NAYS—73 Breaux Feinstein Kyl Domenici Levin Warner Abraham Byrd Enzi Brownback Fitzgerald Landrieu Dorgan Lieberman Wellstone Allard Chafee Feingold Bryan Frist Lautenberg Durbin Lincoln Wyden Ashcroft Cleland Feinstein Bunning Gorton Leahy Edwards Mikulski Burns Graham Levin Baucus Cochran Fitzgerald Byrd Gramm Lieberman The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senate Bayh Collins Frist Campbell Grams Lincoln will be in order. Bennett Coverdell Gorton Chafee Grassley Lott On this vote, the yeas are 30, the Bond Craig Graham Cleland Gregg Lugar nays are 70. Division II of the motion is Breaux Crapo Gramm Cochran Hagel Mack Brownback DeWine Grams Collins Harkin McCain not agreed to. Bryan Domenici Grassley Conrad Hatch McConnell The Chair recognizes the Senator Bunning Durbin Gregg Coverdell Helms Mikulski from Washington, Mrs. MURRAY. Burns Edwards Hagel

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1210 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Hatch Lugar Smith (NH) The legislative clerk read as follows: The CHIEF JUSTICE. Without objec- Helms Mack Smith (OR) The Senator from South Dakota [Mr. tion, it is so ordered. Hollings McCain Specter Hutchinson McConnell Stevens DASCHLE] moves that the Senate now pro- Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I be- Hutchison Moynihan Thomas ceed to closing arguments; that there be 2 lieve that it is in order for White House Inhofe Murkowski Thompson hours for the White House Counsel followed counsel to offer a motion at this point. Jeffords Nickles Thurmond by 2 hours for the House Managers; and that If they wish to do so, then I believe Kerry Roberts Voinovich at the conclusion of this time the Senate Kohl Roth they could, then we would vote on that Warner proceed to vote, on each of the articles, with- Kyl Santorum Wellstone motion. Leahy Schumer out intervening action, motion or debate, ex- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- Wyden cept for deliberations, if so decided by the Lieberman Sessions ognizes Mr. White House Counsel Ruff. Lott Shelby Senate. Mr. Counsel RUFF. Thank you, Mr. The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote The CHIEF JUSTICE. The minority Chief Justice. leader. the yeas are 27, the nays are 73, and the MOTION TO PROVIDE WRITTEN NOTICE TO Mr. DASCHLE. I ask unanimous con- motion is not agreed to. COUNSEL VOTE ON DIVISION III sent that all time be yielded back. Mr. Counsel RUFF. Mr. Majority The CHIEF JUSTICE. The vote is The CHIEF JUSTICE. In the absence Leader, I want to hand up to the desk now on the division III of the motion. of objection, it is so ordered. The yeas a brief motion dealing with the presen- The clerk will read division III. and nays are automatic. The clerk will tation of videotape evidence on Satur- The assistant legislative clerk read call the roll. day pursuant to the motion that has as follows: The legislative clerk called the roll. just been voted on by the Senate. If I Division III. The House further moves that The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 44, may, I hand it up to the clerk. the parties be permitted to present before nays 56, as follows: The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will the Senate, for a period of time not to exceed [Rollcall Vote No. 13] read the motion. a total of six hours, equally divided, all or [Subject: Daschle motion to proceed to The legislative clerk read as follows: portions of the parts of the videotapes of the closing arguments] oral depositions of Monica S. Lewinsky, Mr. Ruff moves that no later than 2:00 P.M. YEAS—44 Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., and Sidney on Friday, February 5, 1999, the Managers Blumenthal admitted into evidence, and that Akaka Edwards Lieberman shall provide written notice to counsel for the House be entitled to reserve a portion of Baucus Feinstein Lincoln the President indicating the precise page and its presentation time. Bayh Graham Mikulski line designations of any video excerpts from Biden Harkin Moynihan the depositions of Monica Lewinsky, Vernon The CHIEF JUSTICE. The yeas and Bingaman Hollings Murray Jordan or Sidney Blumenthal that they plan nays are automatic. The clerk will call Boxer Inouye Reed to use during their three-hour presentation Breaux Johnson the roll. Reid on Saturday, or during their closing argu- Bryan Kennedy Robb The assistant legislative clerk called Byrd Kerrey ment. Rockefeller the roll. Cleland Kerry Sarbanes The CHIEF JUSTICE. There are 2 Conrad Kohl The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 62, Schumer hours equally divided on the motion. nays 38, as follows: Daschle Landrieu Dodd Lautenberg Torricelli Mr. Counsel RUFF. Mr. Chief Justice, [Rollcall Vote No. 12] Dorgan Leahy Wellstone we won’t use but a small percentage of [Subject: Division III of the House managers Durbin Levin Wyden that. I will turn the matter over, if I motion regarding presentation of evidence] NAYS—56 may, to my colleague, Mr. Kendall. YEAS—62 The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- Abraham Fitzgerald McConnell Abraham Feingold McConnell Allard Frist Murkowski ognizes Mr. Counsel Kendall. Allard Fitzgerald Moynihan Ashcroft Gorton Nickles Mr. Counsel KENDALL. Thank you, Ashcroft Frist Murkowski Bennett Gramm Roberts Mr. Chief Justice. Bennett Gorton Nickles Bond Grams Roth Bond Gramm Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, Roberts Brownback Grassley Santorum Breaux Grams House managers, I will be brief. This is Roth Bunning Gregg Sessions Brownback Grassley Santorum Burns Hagel Shelby simply a procedural motion which I Bryan Gregg Sessions Campbell Hatch think will make for a fairer hearing Bunning Hagel Smith (NH) Shelby Chafee Helms Burns Hatch Smith (OR) and a more efficient use of the Senate’s Smith (NH) Cochran Hutchinson Byrd Helms Snowe time on Saturday. Smith (OR) Collins Hutchison Campbell Hollings Coverdell Inhofe Specter Specter Fascinating though these depositions Chafee Hutchinson Craig Jeffords Stevens Stevens are, I don’t think there is any need to Cochran Hutchison Crapo Kyl Thomas Thomas Collins Inhofe DeWine Lott Thompson inflict them on you repeatedly. What Coverdell Kyl Thompson Domenici Lugar Thurmond we are asking in this motion is simply Craig Lieberman Thurmond Enzi Mack Voinovich a procedure that would be normal in a Crapo Lott Voinovich Feingold McCain Warner DeWine Lugar Warner civil trial, and that is by a fair time to- Domenici Mack Wellstone The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote morrow for the House managers to des- Enzi McCain Wyden the yeas are 44, the nays are 56, and the ignate the portions of the three deposi- NAYS—38 motion is not agreed to. tions that they intend to use. That will Akaka Feinstein Levin The Chair recognizes the majority allow us not to repeat those portions, Baucus Graham Lincoln leader. and it will give us some fair chance to Bayh Harkin Mikulski Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I be- organize our responsive presentation. Biden Inouye Murray lieve that was the last of the motions The burden is on the House man- Bingaman Jeffords Reed that had been offered. agers. I think this is not an extensive Boxer Johnson Reid Cleland Kennedy Robb I am ready to go to the closing script set of transcripts. I think it can be eas- Conrad Kerrey Rockefeller unless there is some other motion ily done. You have all, many of you, Daschle Kerry Sarbanes pending or to be offered. Dodd Kohl watched the depositions this week, Schumer Dorgan Landrieu Mr. Counsel RUFF. May I ask, Mr. read the transcripts. So I think if we Snowe Durbin Lautenberg Chief Justice, for indulgence for just a Torricelli can simply have this designation by 2 Edwards Leahy couple minutes to consult with my col- o’clock tomorrow, it will enable Satur- The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote, leagues? day, perhaps, to be a shorter pro- the yeas are 62, the nays are 38. Divi- Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I sug- ceeding. sion III of the motion is agreed to. gest the absence of a quorum. The CHIEF JUSTICE. Counsel for The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair rec- The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will House managers? The Chair recognizes ognizes the minority leader. call the roll. Mr. Manager ROGAN. MOTION TO PROCEED TO CLOSING ARGUMENTS The assistant legislative clerk pro- Mr. Manager ROGAN. Mr. Chief Jus- Mr. DASCHLE. I send a motion to ceeded to call the roll. tice, thank you. the desk. Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask I will imitate my colleague at the bar The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will unanimous consent that the order for Mr. Kendall’s brevity, if not his elo- report the motion. the quorum call be rescinded. quence.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1211 I simply suggest this is somewhat a The assistant legislative clerk called I understand under rule XXIX, are still unique opportunity that counsel is in- the roll. confidential. Are those to be printed in viting the House managers to engage (Disturbance in the Visitors’ Gal- the RECORD? in, to give counsel notice of page and leries.) Mr. LOTT. I will ask consent that line of transcripts for the presentation The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Sergeant the transcripts of the depositions be of evidence that we are going to make. at Arms will restore order to the gal- printed in the RECORD of today’s date. It is our prerogative to put on our evi- lery. Mr. LEAHY. The exhibits were hand- dence; it is White House counsel’s op- The assistant legislative clerk con- ed out today in debate. Were they portunity to put on their evidence. tinued with the call of the roll. handed out under rule XXIX? Asking us to choreograph that for The yeas and nays resulted—yeas 46, Mr. LOTT. I believe we got approval them and with them is something that nays 54, as follows: that they be used in the oral presen- I am unfamiliar with, except for one [Rollcall Vote No. 14] tations at the beginning of the session time. [Subject: White House Counsels’ motion] today. I remember during my days as a YEAS—46 Mr. LEAHY. I withdraw any objec- judge in California that a similar re- Akaka Feingold Lieberman tion. quest was made for me, and a law clerk Baucus Feinstein Lincoln Mr. CHIEF JUSTICE. Objection has pointed out to me language from one of Bayh Graham Mikulski been heard. Biden Harkin Moynihan Mr. LEAHY. Mr. Chief Justice, I the late great justices of the California Bingaman Hollings Murray Supreme Court, Otto Kaus. Apparently, Boxer Inouye Reed withdrew any objection. a similar request was made to Justice Breaux Jeffords Reid Mr. KERRY addressed the Chair. Bryan Johnson Robb The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senator Kaus to do the same thing in a case, Byrd Kennedy Rockefeller and Justice Kaus looked at the lawyer Cleland Kerrey from Massachusetts, Mr. KERRY, is rec- Sarbanes Conrad Kerry ognized. making the request and he said, ‘‘I be- Schumer Daschle Kohl lieve the appropriate legal response to Torricelli Mr. KERRY. Mr. Chief Justice, re- Dodd Landrieu serving the right to object. I ask the your request is that it is none of your Dorgan Lautenberg Wellstone damn business what the other side is Durbin Leahy Wyden majority leader, is there an assumption going to put on.’’ Edwards Levin that if White House counsel were to With that, Mr. Chief Justice, we will NAYS—54 want sufficient time on Saturday in yield back the balance of our time. Abraham Fitzgerald McConnell order to be able to present video testi- The CHIEF JUSTICE. Mr. Kendall. Allard Frist Murkowski mony countering whatever surprise Mr. Counsel KENDALL. That philos- Ashcroft Gorton Nickles video—and there may or may not be a Bennett Gramm Roberts surprise —would they have time to be ophy might want to be emulated at Bond Grams Roth some point by the drafters of the Fed- Brownback Grassley Santorum able to provide that on Saturday—not eral Civil Rules, but it is not. In every Bunning Gregg Sessions to carry over, but merely if they Federal civil trial, this procedure is Burns Hagel Shelby choose to, to do that on Saturday? Campbell Hatch Smith (NH) Mr. LOTT. I am not sure I under- followed, the designation, the identi- Chafee Helms Smith (OR) fying, and designating of deposition ex- Cochran Hutchinson Snowe stand the question, except that we will cerpts. Collins Hutchison Specter come in at 10, and we will have 6 hours Coverdell Inhofe Stevens equally divided. I presume that the Again, I think it will make for a fair- Craig Kyl Thomas er and more efficient proceeding. I Crapo Lott Thompson House would make a presentation first don’t think trial by surprise has a DeWine Lugar Thurmond and then the White House and then place here. Domenici Mack Voinovich close. There would be time during that Enzi McCain Warner The CHIEF JUSTICE. The vote is on 6-hour period for the White House to the motion. The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote, use it as they see fit. Are you asking The clerk will read the motion. the yeas are 46, the nays are 54. The that there would be some sort of break The legislative clerk read as follows: motion is rejected. so they would be able to consider that? Mr. Ruff moves that no later than 2:00 P.M. ORDERS FOR SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6 AND Mr. KERRY. Clearly, the purpose of on Friday, February 5, 1999, the Managers MONDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1999 the trial and the purpose of this effort shall provide written notice to counsel for Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I be- is to have a fair presentation of evi- the President indicating the precise page and lieve that completes all the motions. dence. The Senate now having denied line designations of any video excerpts from Therefore, I ask unanimous consent notice to White House counsel of what the depositions of Monica Lewinsky, Vernon that when the Senate completes its areas may be the subject of video, it Jordan or Sidney Blumenthal that they plan business today, it stand in adjourn- might be that the voice of the wit- to use during their three-hour presentation ment until 10 a.m. on Saturday, Feb- nesses themselves is the best response on Saturday, or during their closing argu- ment. ruary 6, and at 10 a.m. on Saturday, to whatever it is that the House were immediately following the prayer, the to present. If they were to decide—— Mr. BYRD. Mr. Chief Justice, may we Senate will resume consideration of Mr. BROWNBACK. Mr. Chief Justice, have order. the articles of impeachment. I further I call for the regular order. The CHIEF JUSTICE. I fully agree ask consent that on Saturday there be The CHIEF JUSTICE. The regular with the Senator. 6 hours equally divided between the order has been called for. There is a Mr. BYRD. Would the clerk read that House managers and White House unanimous consent request pending. Is again. counsel for presentations. I further ask there objection? The CHIEF JUSTICE. Let the Senate that following those presentations on Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, briefly, remain in order and let the clerk read Saturday, the Senate then adjourn if I could say on behalf of my unani- the motion again. until 1 p.m. on Monday, February 8. I mous consent, and in brief response to The legislative clerk read as follows: finally ask consent that on Monday, the question, we have all worked hard Mr. Ruff moves that no later than 2:00 P.M. immediately following the prayer, the and bent over backward trying to be on Friday, February 5, 1999, the Managers Senate resume consideration of the ar- fair. I am sure if there is something shall provide written notice to counsel for the President indicating the precise page and ticles of impeachment, and there then that would be needed on Saturday, it line designations of any video excerpts from be 6 hours equally divided between the would be carefully considered by both the depositions of Monica Lewinsky, Vernon managers and White House counsel for sides. Jordan or Sidney Blumenthal that they plan final arguments. Mr. KERRY. Mr. Chief Justice, I sug- to use during their three-hour presentation Mr. LEAHY. Mr. Chief Justice, re- gest the absence of a quorum. on Saturday, or during their closing argu- serving the right to object, and I shall Mr. GRAMM. A quorum is present. ment. not, I ask the distinguished leader this. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The majority The CHIEF JUSTICE. The yeas and We have had exhibits handed out today leader has the floor. nays are automatic. The clerk will call to be printed in the CONGRESSIONAL Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I be- the roll. RECORD, referring to depositions which, lieve it would be appropriate to go

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1212 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 ahead and get this unanimous consent Q. Ms. Lewinsky, welcome back to Wash- Q. Had you ever been to Washington be- agreement. We will continue to work ington, and wanted to just gather a few of fore? with both sides to try to make sure our friends here to have this deposition now. A. Yes. Q. Obviously, you were accepted, and you there is a fair way to proceed on Satur- We do have quite a number of people present, but we—in spite of the numbers, we do want started work when? day. We will have the remainder of you to feel as comfortable as possible be- A. July 10th, 1995. today and tomorrow to work on that. cause I think we—everyone present today Q. Where—where were you assigned? So I would like to renew my unani- has an interest in getting to the truth of this A. The Chief— mous consent request. matter, and so as best as you can, we would Q. Physically, where were you located? The CHIEF JUSTICE. Is there objec- appreciate your answers in a—in a truthful A. Oh, physically? tion? and a fashion that you can recall. I know it’s Q. Yes. Mr. BOND. Mr. Chief Justice, reserv- been a long time since some of these events A. Room 93 of the Old Executive Office have occurred. Building. ing the right to object. May I inquire of Q. Were you designated in any particular the majority leader if that Saturday But for the record, would you state your name once again, your full name? manner in terms of—were all interns the time schedule gives both parties ade- A. Yes. Monica Samille Lewinsky. same, I guess would be my question? quate time to prepare for the presen- Q. And you’re a—are you a resident of Cali- A. Yes and no. We were all interns, but tation of the evidence? Have both sides fornia? there were a select group of interns who had agreed that they will be prepared? A. I’m—I’m not sure exactly where I’m a blue passes who worked in the White House Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, as best resident now, but I—that’s where I’m living proper, and most of us worked in the Old Ex- I can respond to that, I just say that right now. ecutive Office Building with a pink intern hopefully both sides have had more Q. Okay. You—did you grow up there in pass. Q. Now, can you explain to me the signifi- than adequate time allocated on Satur- California? A. Yes. cance of a pink pass versus a blue pass? day. One of the reasons we are doing it Q. I’m not going to go into all that, but I A. Sure. this way—Saturday instead of tomor- thought just a little bit of background here. Q. Okay. Is it—is it access? row—is so both sides will have an op- You went to college where? A. Yes. portunity to review everything and A. Lewis and Clark, in Portland, Oregon. Q. To what? hopefully communicate with each Q. And you majored in—majored in? A. A blue pass gives you access to any- other. We will do that Friday during A. Psychology. where in the White House and a pink intern pass gives you access to the Old Executive the day so that an orderly presentation Q. Tell me about your work history, brief- ly, from the time you left college until, let’s Office Building. can be made by both sides on Saturday. say, you started as an intern at the White Q. Did interns have blue passes? I believe we are seeing a problem here House. A. Yes, some. where there may not be one. A. Uh, I wasn’t working from the time I— Q. Some did, and some had pink passes? But if one develops certainly we Q. Okay. Did you— A. Correct. would take it into consideration. A. I graduated college in May of ’95. Q. And you had the pink? Mr. Chief Justice, I renew my re- Q. Did you work part time there in—in Or- A. Correct. quest. egon with a—with a District Attorney— Q. How long was your internship? The CHIEF JUSTICE. Is there objec- A. Uh— A. It was from July ’til the end of August, Q. —in his office somewhere? and then I stayed on for a little while until tion? In the absence of objection, it is A. During—I had an internship or a the 2nd. so ordered. practicum when I was in school. I had two Q. Are most interns for the summertime— Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask practicums, and one was at the public de- you do part of the summer or the entire sum- unanimous consent that those parts of fender’s office and the other was at the mer? the transcripts of the depositions ad- Southeast Mental Health Network. A. I believe there are interns all year- mitted into evidence be printed in the Q. And those were in Portland? round at the White House. Congressional RECORD of today’s date. A. Yes. Q. Now, you as an intern, you are unpaid. I further ask consent that the deposi- Q. Okay. What—you received a bachelor of A. Correct. tion transcripts of Monica Lewinsky, science in psychology? Q. And tell—tell me how you came to, uh, A. Correct. through your decisionmaking process, to Vernon Jordan, and Sidney Q. Okay. As a part of your duties at the seek a paid position and stay in Washington. Blumenthal, and the videotapes there- Southeast Health Network, what did you— A. Uh, there were several factors. One is I of, be immediately released to the what did you do in terms of working? Did came to enjoy being at the White House, and managers on the part of the House and you have direct contact with people there, I found it to be interesting. I was studying to the counsel to the President for the patients? take the GREs, the entrance exam for grad- purpose of preparing their presen- A. Yes, I did. Um, they referred to them as uate school, and needed to get a job. So I— tations, provided, however, that such clients there and I worked in what was called since I had enjoyed my internship, my super- the Phoenix Club, which was a socialization visor at the time, Tracy Beckett, helped me copies shall remain at all times under area for the clients to—really to just hang try and secure a position. the supervision of the Sergeant at out and, um, sort of work on their social Q. Now, you mentioned the pink pass that Arms to ensure compliance with the skills. So I— you had. So you were able to—I don’t want confidentiality provisions of S. Res. 30. Q. Okay. After your work there, you obvi- to presume—you were able to get into the The CHIEF JUSTICE. In the absence ously had occasion to come to work at the White House on occasion even with a pink of objection, it is so ordered. White House. How did—how did you come to pass? The material follows: decide you wanted to come to Washington, A. The—do you mean the White House and in particular work at the White House? IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES SIT- proper, or— A. There were a few different factors. My TING FOR THE TRIAL OF THE IMPEACHMENT Q. Yes, the White House— mom’s side of the family had moved to Wash- OF WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, PRESIDENT A. —the complex? ington during my senior year of college and Q. Yes. Let me be clear. When I—I tend to OF THE UNITED STATES I wanted—I wasn’t ready to go to graduate say ‘‘White House’’—I mean the actual build- EXCERPTS OF VIDEO DEPOSITION OF MONICA S. school yet. So I wanted to get out of Port- ing itself. And I know perhaps you think of LEWINSKY land, and a friend of our family’s had a the whole complex in terms of the whole— (Monday, February 1, 1999, Washington, D.C.) grandson who had had an internship at the A. I’m sorry. Just to be clear— SENATOR DeWINE: If not, I will now White House and had thought it might be Q. Yes. swear the witness. something I’d enjoy doing. A. —do you mean the West Wing and the Ms. Lewinsky, will you raise your right Q. Had you ever worked around—in politics residence and— hand, please? and campaigns or been very active? Q. Right. Whereupon, MONICA S. LEWINSKY was A. No. A. —the East Wing when you say the White called as a witness and, after having been Q. You had to go through the normal appli- House? first duly sworn by Senator DeWine, was ex- cation process of submitting a written appli- Q. Right. The White House where the amined and testified as follows: cation, references, and so forth to—to the President lives, and works, I guess, right. SENATOR DeWINE: The House Managers White House? A. I’m sorry. Can you repeat the question? may now begin your questioning. A. Yes. Q. Yes, yes. I mean that White House. As MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Senator. Q. Did you do that while you were still in an intern, you had a pink pass that did allow Good morning to all present. Oregon, or were you already in D.C.? you to have access to that White House EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS A. No. The application process was while I where the President was on occasion? BY MR. BRYANT: was a senior in college in Oregon. A. No.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1213 Q. Did not. Did you have—did you ever get the record that—he has said they are limited you, other than perhaps a hello in the hall- in there as an intern? to the record, and so we accept his, his des- way, was that on November the 15th, 1995? A. Yes. ignation. We’re limited to the record. A. Yes. Q. And under—under what circumstances? SENATOR DeWINE: We’re going to go off Q. And that was—that was the day, uh, of A. It— the record for just a moment. the first so-called salacious encounter, the Q. Did you have to be accompanied by THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the same day? someone, or— record at 9:37 a.m. A. Yes. A. Exactly; someone with a blue pass. [Recess.] Q. Now, when the President gave a state- Q. So how did you—once you decided you THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back ment testifying before the grand jury, he—he wanted to stay in Washington and find a pay- on the record at 9:45 a.m. described that relationship as what I consid- ing job, you sought out some help from SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on ered sort of an evolving one. He says: ‘‘I re- friends there, people you knew, contacts, and the record. gret that what began as a friendship came to you were—you did—you were successful? The objection is noted, but it’s overruled, include this conduct.’’ And he goes on to A. Correct. and the witness is instructed to answer the take full responsibility for his actions. But Q. And you were hired where—where in the question. that almost sounds as if this was an evolv- White House? Senator Leahy? SENATOR LEAHY: And I had noted during ing—something from a friendship evolving A. In Legislative Affairs. over time to a sexual relationship. That was Q. Now, again, to educate me on this, in the break that obviously, the witness has 48 hours to correct her deposition, and would not the case, was it? that group, in that section, department, you A. I—I can’t really comment on how he would have worked where, physically? also note that when somebody has testified to some of these things 20 or more times that perceived it. My perception was different. A. Physically, in the East Wing. Q. Okay— it is not unusual to have some nuances dif- Q. Okay, and as an intern before, you A. But I—I—I mean, I don’t feel com- ferent, and that could also be reflected in worked in the Old Executive Office Building? fortable saying that he didn’t, that he didn’t A. Correct. time to correct her testimony. see it that way, or that’s wrong; that’s how Q. But you moved about and occasionally And I had also noted when we were off the he saw it. I— would go into the White House, if escorted? record Mr. Manager Bryant’s comment on Q. But you saw it a different way? A. Correct. January 26th, page S992 in the Congressional Q. It takes a while, but I’ll get there with Record, in which he said: ‘‘If our motion is A. Yes. Q. Now, on November the 15th, had you al- you; I’ll catch up. granted, I want to make this very, very ready accepted this job with Legislative Af- When did you actually—what was your clear. At no point will we ask any questions fairs? first day on the job with the Legislative Af- of Monica Lewinsky about her explicit sex- A. Yes. fairs, uh, group? ual relationship with the President, either in Q. And, uh, was—that was during the shut- A. Um, first day on the job was sometime deposition or, if we are permitted on the down, so you had no job to go to because the after the furlough. I was hired right before floor of the Senate, they will not be asked.’’ the furlough, but the paperwork hadn’t gone And I should add also, to be fair to Mr. Government was shut down. A. No. I accepted it on the Friday before through, so first day on the job was some Bryant, another sentence in that: ‘‘That, of the furlough. point after the furlough. I don’t remember course, assumes that White House Counsel Q. And that— the exact date. does not enter into that discussion, and we A. But the paperwork hadn’t gone through. Q. So you remained, uh, on as an intern doubt that they would.’’ Period, close quote. Q. Okay. Did, uh—when you first met with during the furlough— SENATOR DeWINE: Let me just add some- A. Correct. thing that I stated to counsel and to Ms. the President on November the 15th, did he Q. —the Government shutdown period. Lewinsky off the record, and I think I will say anything to you that would indicate that A. Correct. briefly repeat it, and that is that counsel is he knew you were an intern? A. No. Q. And that was in November of 1995, some entitled to an answer to the question, but Q. Did he make a comment about your, date during that? Ms. Lewinsky certainly can reference pre- your pink security badge? A. Yes. vious testimony if she wishes to do that. But A. Can I ask my counsel a question real Q. Okay. Um, tell me how you, um, began— counsel is entitled to a new explanation of— quickly, please? I guess the—the—we’re going to talk about a of what occurred. relationship with the President. Uh, when Counsel, you may—why don’t you re-ask [Witness conferring with counsel.] MR. CACHERIS: Okay, Mr Bryant. you first, uh, I guess, saw him, I think there the question, and we will proceed. was some indication that you didn’t speak to MR. BRYANT: May I, before I do that, ask THE WITNESS: Sorry. It was—that oc- him maybe the first few times you saw him, a procedural question in terms of curred in the second encounter of that but you had some eye contact or sort of timekeeping? evening. smiles or— SENATOR DeWINE: The time is not count- BY MR. BRYANT: A. I—I believe I’ve testified to that in the ed—any of the time that you have—once Q. Okay. On November— grand jury pretty extensively. there is an objection, none of the time is A. So, not the first encounter. Q. Uh-huh. counted until we rule on the objection and Q. On November the 15th, 1995? A. Is—is there something more specific? until you then have the opportunity to ask A. Correct. Q. Well, again, I’m wanting to know times, the question again. So the time will start Q. What—do you recall what he said or you know, how soon that occurred and sort now. what he did in regard to the intern pass? of what happened, you know, if you can—you MR. BRYANT: Very good. A. He tugged on my pass and said: ‘‘This is know, there are going to be occasions where BY MR. BRYANT: going to be a problem.’’ you—obviously, you testified extensively in Q. Ms. Lewinsky, again, let me—I know Q. And what did, uh—did he say anything the grand jury, so you’re going to obviously this is difficult, but let me apologize that, else about what he meant by ‘‘problem’’? repeat things today. We’re doing the deposi- uh, that it is going to be necessary that I ask A. No. tion for the Senators to view, we believe, so you these questions because we’re limited to Q. Tell me about your job at Legislative it’s— the record and if we—we can’t ask you any Affairs. Did that involve going into the MR. CACHERIS: May I note an objection. new questions outside that record, so I have White House itself? The Senators have the complete record, as to talk about what’s in the record. And I re- A. Yes. My job was in the White House. you know, Mr. Bryant, and she is standing alize you’ve answered all these questions Q. You were in one wing, but did that in- on her testimony that she has given on the several times before, but it’s, uh—I’m sincere volve going—did it give you access— occasions that Mr. Stein alluded to at the in- that we really wouldn’t need to take your A. Yes. troduction of this deposition. deposition if we couldn’t ask you those kinds Q. —pretty well throughout the White MR. BRYANT: Well, I appreciate that, but, of questions. So it’s not motivated to cause House? uh, if this is going to be the case, we don’t you uncomfort or to make you sit here in A. Yes. even need the deposition, because we’re lim- Washington when you’d rather be in Cali- Q. What did you do primarily? ited to the record and everything is in the fornia. We’ll try to get through this as A. I worked under Jocelyn Jolly, who su- record. So I think, uh, to be fair, we’re— quickly as we can. pervised the letters that came from the Hill; we’re obviously going to have to talk about, But we were talking about when you were so the opening of those letters and reading uh, some things for 8 hours here, or else we first assigned there at the White House and them and vetting them and preparing re- can go home. those initial contacts, and I mean, again, sponses for the President’s signature—re- THE WITNESS: Sounds good to me. when you were—you would see the President. sponding. [Laughter.] I think you’ve mentioned you would—there Q. Now, you’ve indicated through counsel MR. BRYANT: I think we probably all was some mild flirting going on; you would at the beginning that you are willing to af- would like to do that. smile or you would make eye contact. It was firm, otherwise adopt, your sworn testimony SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, are you ob- something of this nature? of August the 6th and August the 20th, I jecting to the question? A. Yes. think, which would be grand jury, and the MR. CACHERIS: Yes. I’m objecting to him Q. And the first—was the first time you ac- deposition of August the 26th, 1998. asking specific questions that are already in tually spoke to the President or he spoke to A. Correct.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1214 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Q. So you’re saying that that information President on April the 12th—which deter- THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the is accurate, and it is truthful? mined that Ms. Lieberman maybe spear- record at 10:01 a.m. A. Yes. headed your transfer because you were pay- [Recess.] Q. Well, thank you. That—that will save us ing too much attention—you were all—you THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back a little bit of time, but certainly we will ask were both paying too much attention to each on the record at 10:11 a.m. you some of that information also. other and she was worried that it was close SENATOR DeWINE: Let me—we’re now At some point, you were transferred to the to election time? And I think you’ve testi- back on the record. Pentagon, to the Department of Defense. fied to that, haven’t you? Let me advise counsel, the Managers, that When did that occur? A. Yes. they have used 25 minutes so far. A. I found out I was being transferred on Q. Okay, good. You started, uh, with the You may resume questioning, and if you April 5th, 1996. Department of Defense at the Pentagon in could begin by identifying the exhibit for the Q. Did you want to go— mid-April, April the 17th, 1996? record, please. A. No. A. Yes. MR. BRYANT: Tom, let me also for clari- Q. —to the Department of Defense? Did Q. What did you do there? fication purposes—Tom, on the referral to you have a discussion with the President A. I was the confidential assistant to Mr. the Senate record, you’re saying that the ap- about this? Bacon, who is the Assistant Secretary of De- pendices are numbered 3, but the numbers A. Yes. fense for Public Affairs. are the same. The page numbers are the Q. What was your reaction to being trans- Q. Did, uh—after the 1996 election, did you same. ferred? still want to go back to the White House? MR. GRIFFITH: Yes. A. I started to cry. A. Yes. MR. BRYANT: And the supplemental ma- Q. Did you talk to anyone else at the Q. You had not fallen in love with the job terials are your Volume IV, but, again, the White House other than the President about at the Pentagon that much? pages are the same. the transfer at that time? A. No. MR. GRIFFITH: That’s our understanding. A. Yes. Q. Was that, in fact, a frustrating period of MR. BRYANT: Okay. For the record, then, Q. And who—who was that? time? using the Senate volumes, if this is an ap- A. I spoke with several people. I—I can’t— A. Yes. No offense to Mr. Bacon, of course. pendices, Volume III, and the chart that we I know I—I spoke with, uh, Jocelyn about it. Q. I understand; I’m sure he would take just alluded to before the break is—appears I spoke with people with whom I was friendly none. at pages 116 through 126 of the Senate record, at the White House. I spoke to Betty, Nancy I would like—I don’t think it’s been men- Volume III. Hernreich, several people. tioned, but you helped in preparing a chart BY MR. BRYANT: Q. Did you—did you find out why you were which we have listed as one of our exhibits, Q. Ms. Lewinsky, did you tell a number of being transferred? ML Number 2, which I assume might have a people in varying details about your rela- A. Uh, I was told why I was being trans- different number for now, but it’s a chart of tionship with the President? ferred by Mr. Keating on Friday, the 5th of contacts— A. Yes. Q. you tell us who did you tell? April. A. Right. A. Catherine Allday Davis, Neysa Deman Q. And that was why? Q. —that you had with the President. And Erbland, Natalie Ungvari, Ashley Raines, A. Uh, he said that the—the Office of Ad- do you have a copy of that chart? It— [Witness conferring with counsel.] Linda Tripp, Dr. Kathy Estep, Dr. Irene ministration, I think it was, was not pleased MR. BRYANT: In the—yes, in the record, Kassorla, Andy Bleiler, my mom, my aunt. with the way the correspondence was being it’s at page 1251. Who else has been subpoenaed? handled, and they were, quote-unquote, MR. BURTON: May we have an extra copy Q. Okay. Let me suggest Dale—did you ‘‘blowing up’’ the Correspondence Office, and for counsel, please? mention Dale Young? that I was being transferred and it had noth- BY MR. BRYANT: A. Dale Young. I’m sorry. ing to do with my work. Q. Have you had occasion to review this Q. Thank you. Q. Did you have any understanding that it document? Now, in the floor presentation, Mr. Craig, might have been other reasons that you were A. Yes. who was one of—is one of the counsel for the being moved? Q. And very—very simply, I would like for President, adopted an argument that had A. Not at that point. you to, uh, if you can, to affirm that docu- been raised in some of the previous hearings, Q. Did the—what did the President say ment as an accurate representation and a uh, and he adopted this argument in the Sen- about your transfer at that point? truthful representation of all the contacts ate that—that you have—have or had, I A. He thought it had something to do with that you had with the President from ap- think, both past and present, the incentive our relationship. proximately August 9th, 1995 until January to not tell the truth about how the Presi- Q. What else did he say about—about your of 1998. It includes in-person contacts, tele- dent—this relationship with him because you transfer, if anything? Did he give you any as- phone calls, gifts and notes exchanged, I wanted to avoid—and again, I use the quote surances that you might be back, or— think are the categories. from Mr. Craig’s argument—the demeaning A. Yes. A. Yes. I believe there might have been one nature of providing wholly un-reciprocated Q. Back after what time period? or two changes that were made and noted in sex. A. He promised me he’d bring me back the grand jury or my deposition, and I adopt Did, uh—did you lie before the grand jury after the election. those as well. and to your friends about the nature of that Q. So this was, again, in early 19—April of MR. BRYANT: Okay, good. relationship with the President— 1996, and he was up for reelection— I am not going to at this point make her— A. No. A. Yes. the information she adopts and affirms ex- Q. —so as to avoid what Mr. Craig says? Q. —in November of 1996. hibits to this deposition. I don’t want to Okay, and I’ll break it down. A. Yes. clutter it any more unless someone wants to SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, do you want Q. Did you attach any significance to being make this an exhibit in terms of your deposi- to just—just rephrase the question? transferred away before the election and tion testimony, your grand jury testimony, MR. BRYANT: Okay. We’ll break it down then him assuring you he would bring you and now the charts that you have affirmed, into two questions. back after the election? Did you attach any so I just want you to specifically affirm it BY MR. BRYANT: significance to the election and your having but not make it an exhibit, because it’s al- Q. Did you not tell the truth before the to leave? ready a part of the record. grand jury as to how the President touched A. Emotional significance, yes. MR. CACHERIS: We defer to the White you because of what Mr. Craig alleges as the Q. Your emotion? I’m—I’m not sure I fol- House. demeaning nature of the wholly un-recip- low you. You were— MS. SELIGMAN: I just wanted to make rocated sex? A. Well, yes, I attached significance to it. clear on the record, then, what the app. or MR. CACHERIS: Well, that—may I register Q. And that was emotional— sub-cite is of anything we’re adopting so an objection, gentlemen? This witness is not A. But that was emotional. that we all know what particular pages it is. here to comment on what some lawyer said Q. But the reason you both felt—again, I’m MR. BRYANT: Okay. And that, again, was, on the floor of the Senate. He can ask her di- not trying to put words in your mouth, but I think, page 1251 of—right, of the record. rect questions. She will answer them, but you both felt you were leaving until after SENATOR LEAHY: I don’t—I don’t under- what Mr. Craig said or didn’t say would have the election was because of your relationship stand. happened after her grand jury testimony. So and perhaps people finding out? MS. MILLS: Can you cite the ending page? it’s totally inappropriate that he’s— A. No. I—I—first, I can only speak for my- SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, is that where SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don’t self. I mean, I, uh, my understanding ini- this appears? you— tially was that it was, um, for work-related MR. BRYANT: It appears in the record, MR. CACHERIS: —marrying those two issues, but not my work, and I came to un- uh— concepts. We object. derstand later that it was having to do with SENATOR DeWINE: You need to designate SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don’t my relationship with the President. also if you’re talking about the Senate you just rephrase the question? Q. Okay. Did, uh, you have a conversa- record or—I think at this point we’ll go off MR. BRYANT: Well, we—we have had pre- tion—and it may be the same one with the the record. sented on behalf of the President a defense,

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1215 an incentive, a reason why she would not tell Q. Do you have your own car? matter came up, the President was upset the truth, and I think she should have the A. No. with me and then I began to cry. So— opportunity to respond to that—that allega- Q. Whose—whose car would you drive? Q. Did he encourage you about you coming tion. A. Either my mom’s or my brother’s. back? Did he make a promise or commit- MR. CACHERIS: We—we don’t, uh— Q. So you did have access to a vehicle? ment to you that he would make sure you SENATOR LEAHY: Ask her a direct ques- A. Correct. came back to work at the White House? tion. Q. Okay. How were these meetings ar- A. I don’t know that he reaffirmed his MR. CACHERIS: We welcome you asking ranged when you would want to go from the promise or commitment. I remember leaving her if her testimony was truthful, and she Pentagon to the White House? How did—how that day thinking that, as usual, he was will tell you that it is truthful. We don’t did these—how were they set up? Did you get going to work on it and had a renewed sense have any problem with that. We don’t have an appointment? of hope. any brief with what the White House did or [The witness conferring with counsel.] Q. Did he comment on your letter, the tone didn’t do through their counsel. That’s their SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel—if you have of your letter? business. We don’t represent the White to ask counsel, you can stop and ask us— A. Yes. House. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. What did he say? MS. SELIGMAN: So, for the record, I’d SENATOR DeWINE: —to do that. A. He was upset with me and told me it BY MR. BRYANT: like to object to the characterization of what was illegal to threaten the President of the Q. How were these meetings arranged? Mr. Craig says, which obviously speaks for United States. A. Through Ms. Currie. itself, but I certainly don’t want my silence Q. Did you intend the letter to be inter- Q. Would—would you call her and set the to be construed as accepting the Manager’s preted that way? meeting up, or would she call you on behalf characterization of it. A. No. of the President and set the meeting up? SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don’t Q. Did you explain why you wrote the let- A. It varied. ter to him about reminding him that you you—why don’t you ask the question? Q. Both—both situations occurred? MR. BRYANT: Okay. were a good girl and you left the White A. Correct. House? Did you have that type of conversa- SENATOR DeWINE: Go ahead and ask Q. Now, Ms. Currie is the President’s— your question. tion? that’s Betty Currie, we’re talking about, the A. Yes. That’s what made me start to cry. BY MR. BRYANT: President’s secretary? Q. In regard to your testimony at the Q. Did you, uh—did you ever explain to A. Yes. him that you didn’t intend to threaten him? grand jury about your—your relationship Q. Why was this done? Why was that proce- and the physical contact that you have said A. I believe so. dure used? Q. What was the intent of the letter? occurred in some of these, uh, visits with the A. It was my understanding that Ms. A. First, I felt the letter was going to him President, it has been characterized in a way Currie took care of the President’s guests as a man and not as President of the United that would give you an excuse not to tell the who were coming to see him, making those States. Um, second, I think I could see how truth. Did you tell the truth in the grand arrangements. he could interpret it as a threat, but my in- jury about what actually happened and how Q. Was, uh—was this—were these visits tention was to sort of remind him that I had the President touched—the President done sort of off the record, so to speak, so it been waiting patiently and what I considered touched you? wouldn’t necessarily be a record? was being a good girl, about having been A. Yes. A. I believe so. transferred. Q. And did you likewise tell the truth to Q. In other words, you wouldn’t be shown Q. And the threat we’re talking about here your friends in connection with the same on Betty Currie’s calendar or schedule book would not have been interpreted as a threat matters? for the President? to do physical injury or bodily injury to him. A. Yes. A. I don’t know. It was to expose your relationship to the—to Q. Did your relationship with the Presi- Q. Did—who suggested this type of ar- your parents— dent involve giving gifts, exchanging gifts? rangement for setting up meetings? A. Correct. A. Yes. A. I believe the President did. Q. —explain to them why you were not Q. And you mentioned earlier that in ref- Q. During this time that you were at the going back to the White House— erence to this chart that it was, uh, subject Department of Defense at the Pentagon, uh, A. Correct. to certain corrections you’ve made in later how—how was it working out about you Q. —after the election? testimony. It was an accurate representation being transferred back to the White House? And certainly the President did not en- or an accurate compilation of the gifts that, How was the job situation coming? courage you to expose that relationship, did uh, you gave the President and the President A. Well, I waited until after the election he? gave you. Is that correct? and then spoke with the President about it A. I don’t believe he made any comment A. Yes. on several occasions. about it at that point. Q. Approximately how many gifts did you Q. And what would he say in response? Q. His only comment about the so-called give the President? A. Various things; ‘‘I’m working on it,’’ threat was that it’s a—-it’s—you can’t do A. I believe I’ve testified to that number. I usually. that, it’s against the law to threaten the don’t recall right now. Q. In July, uh, particularly around the— President? Q. About 30? Would that be— the 3rd and 4th of July, there—there—you A. Exactly. A. If that’s what I testified to, then I ac- wrote the President a letter, I think. Q. That meeting turned into—I guess cept that. A. Which year? you’ve testified that that meeting did turn Q. That’s the number I have, and do you re- Q. July of ’90—it would have been ’97 that into a more positive meeting toward the end. call how many gifts approximately the Presi- you wrote the President a letter expressing It was not all emotional and accusations dent gave you? some frustrations about the job situation in being made? A. It would be the same situation. terms of—is that, uh—can you tell us about A. Correct. Q. Okay, and you’ve previously testified in that? Q. At some point, uh—well, let me—let me your grand jury that he gave you about 18 A. Yes. I had had a—well, I guess I was—I back up and ask this. There was a subse- gifts. know I’ve testified about this, I mean, in the quent meeting on July the 14th, and I believe A. I accept that. grand jury, but I was feeling at that point the President had been out of town and this Q. Okay, good. What types of gifts did you that I was getting the runaround on being was the follow-up meeting to the July 4th give the President? brought back to the White House. So I sent meeting where you had originally discussed A. They varied. I think they’re listed on a letter to the President that was probably the possibility of a newspaper reporter or a this chart, and I’ve testified to them. the harshest I had sent. magazine writer, I believe, writing a story Q. Okay, and— Q. Did you get a response? about Ms. Willey? MR. CACHERIS: Do you want her to read A. Sort of. A. Correct. the list that’s on this chart? Q. Would you explain? Q. And you, uh—did you have any instruc- MR. BRYANT: No. I was just, again, look- A. Um, Betty called me and told me to tions from the President, from either of ing for just a—I think maybe a little broader come to the White House the next morning, these meetings, about doing something for category, but that’s—that’s okay. That’s an on July 4th, at 9:00 a.m. the President, specifically about having Ms. acceptable answer there. Q. And what happened when you—I assume Tripp call White House counsel— BY MR. BRYANT: you went to the White House on July the A. I don’t know— Q. After leaving the White House and going 4th. What happened? Q. —Mr. Lindsey? to the Pentagon, did you continue to visit A. I know I—I—do you have a specific ques- A. —that I’d call them instructions. the President? tion? I know I testified, I mean, extensively Q. Okay. What did he tell you? I don’t want A. Yes. about this whole day, that whole— to mischaracterize. Q. How would you—how would you be Q. Well, in regards to—let’s start with the A. He asked me if I would try to have Ms. transported from the Pentagon over to the job. Tripp contact Mr. Lindsey. White House? How did you get there? A. Well, I started crying. We were in the Q. Okay, and if you were to be successful in A. I drove or took a taxi. back office and, um—and when the subject doing that, what were you supposed to do?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1216 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Were you supposed to contact Ms. Currie, his going to be able to come back to the White BY MR. BRYANT: secretary? House, and I asked for his help. Q. And obviously you prepared a list of— A. Yes. Q. Did you bring up Vernon Jordan’s name A. Correct. Q. And what were you supposed to tell her? as perhaps somebody that could help you? Q. —the people you’d like to work for in A. In an innocuous way that I had been A. It’s possible it was in that conversation. New York City. able to convey that to Ms. Tripp or get her Q. What was the President’s comments A. Correct. to do that. back to you about your deciding to go to Q. And you sent that list— Q. Now, in—at some point in October of New York? A. Yes. that year, 1997, did your job focus change? A. I don’t remember his exact comments. Q. —to Betty Currie or to the President? A. Yes. He was accepting of the concept. A. I sent it to Ms. Currie. Q. And how was that? What were you Q. In regards to your—your, uh, decision to Q. And also during this time—and I’m doing? search for a job in New York, in your com- probably going to speed this up a little bit, A. Uh, it really changed on October 6th, ments to the President, did he ever tell you but, uh, you did interview for the job at the 1997, as a result of a conversation with Linda that that was good, that perhaps the Jones United Nations? Tripp. lawyers could not easily find you in New A. Yes. Q. Uh, in that, as I understand, you sort of York? Q. And, uh—and through a process of sev- got secondhand information that you were A. I’m sorry. I don’t—I—I— eral months there, or weeks at least, you probably never going back to work at the MR. CACHERIS: Excuse me again, Mr. did—made an offer to take a job at the White House. Bryant. That’s a compound question. He United Nations and eventually declined it. Is A. Correct. could—she could answer it was good, and that correct? Q. Did you understand what that meant? then she could answer maybe the Jones law- A. Correct. Did you accept that? And I guess why would yer couldn’t get her, but I think you’d want Q. Did you in early November have the oc- you accept it at that point? Why would you an answer to each question. casion to meet with Vernon Jordan about give up on the White House? BY MR. BRYANT: the job situation? MR. CACHERIS: Those are three ques- Q. Okay. Let me ask it this way. There has A. Yes. tions, Mr. Bryant. Will you—would you been some reference to that fact throughout Q. And how did you learn about that meet- break it down, please? the proceedings, and I recall seeing some- ing? MR. BRYANT: Well, yeah, it’s true. thing somewhere in your—your testimony A. I believe I asked Ms. Currie to check on BY MR. BRYANT: that you said it or he said it. Do you recall the status of—I guess of finding out if I could Q. Do you understand? I guess I’m trying anything being said about you going to have this meeting, and then she let me—she to clarify. Washington—to New York and that the ef- let me know to call Mr. Jordan’s secretary? A. Not really. I’m sorry. fect of that might be that you would be more Q. And you set up an appointment with Mr. Q. Why would you accept at that point in difficult to find? Jordan, or did she, Ms. Currie, do that? October that you were never going back to A. I believe that might have been men- A. No. I set up an appointment. I think the White House? tioned briefly on the 28th of December, but that was after a phone—well, I guess I A. I don’t really remember, I mean, what— not as a reason to go to New York, but as a don’t—I don’t know that, so sorry. what—what was going through my mind at possible outcome of being there. Does that— Q. But that appointment was November that point as to—to answer that question. Is does that make sense? the 5th? that— Q. It does. A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Okay. Q. Prior to going to the meeting with A. I’m sorry. Q. What, uh—what would have been the Vernon Jordan, did you tell the President Q. Certainly, if you don’t remember, that’s context of that? And we’re jumping ahead to that you had a meeting with Mr. Jordan? a—that’s a good answer. December the 28th, but what would have A. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. A. Okay. been the context of that particular conversa- Q. Did you carry any documents or any pa- Q. So you don’t recall anything had really tion about the New York and being perhaps— pers with you to the meeting with Mr. Jor- changed other than you had heard second- the result being it might be difficult to find dan? hand that you weren’t going to go back. You you, or more difficult? What was the con- A. Yes. have no independent recollection of anything text? Q. What were those? else other than what somebody told you that A. Um, I—I—if I remember correctly, it A. My resume and a list of public relations would have changed— came sort of at the tail-end of a very short firms in New York. A. My recollection is— discussion we had about the Jones case. Q. Did Mr. Jordan ask you why you were Q. —changed your focus? Q. At this November the 11th meeting, did there? A. —that it was this—it was this conversa- the President ask you to prepare a list, sort A. Yes. tion, what Linda Tripp told me from whom of a wish list for jobs? Q. And what did you say? this information was coming, the way it was A. I’m sorry. Which— A. I was hoping to move to New York and relayed to me that—that shifted everything Q. I’m sorry. Did I say October? We’re back that he could assist me in securing a job that day. to the October the 11th meeting. Did the there. Q. And you didn’t feel it was necessary to President ask you to prepare a wish list? Q. Did he ask you why you wanted to leave go back to the President and perhaps con- A. Okay. We haven’t gone to the October Washington? front the President and say, ‘‘why am I not 11th meeting yet. I—I haven’t said anything A. Yes. coming back, I want to come back?’’ about that meeting yet. Q. And what was your answer? A. I mean, I had a discussion with the Q. Okay. A. I gave him the vanilla story of, um, that President, but I had made a decision from A. The phone call was on the 9th. I—I think I—I don’t remember exactly what that based on that information, and I guess Q. Okay, and you subsequently had a meet- I said. I—I believe I’ve testified to this. I my—my experience of it coming up on a year ing, then, with the President on the 11th? think it was something about wanting to get A. Correct. from the election, having not been brought out of Washington. Q. Face—face-to-face meeting? back, that it probably wasn’t going to hap- A. Correct. Q. The vanilla story. You mean sort of an pen. Q. And at that meeting, did he suggest you innocuous set of reasons, not really the true Q. But you—you did call the President give him a wish list or Betty Currie a wish reasons you wanted to leave? about that time and then—but the focus had list? A. Yes. been changed toward perhaps a job in an- A. Yes. Q. And what were the true reasons you other location. Q. Again, I asked a compound question wanted to leave? A. Yes and no. I didn’t call him, but I, there. A. Because I couldn’t go back to the White um— Who did he suggest you give the wish list House. Q. You called Betty— to? Q. Did—did you think Mr. Jordan accept- A. —but we did have a discussion about MR. CACHERIS: We’re getting used to ed—did you think he would accept that va- that. that. nilla story, or did you feel like he understood Q. You called Betty Currie, his secretary. MR. BRYANT: I’m getting good. I’m mak- the real story? A. Yes. ing my own objections now. A. No, I felt he accepted it. Q. Okay, and then through her, he con- [Laughter.] Q. Did Mr. Jordan tell you during this tacted you and you had a discussion? THE WITNESS: Um, we sustain those. No, meeting that he had already spoken with the A. Yes. I’m sorry. President? Q. And what did you tell him at that time [Laughter.] A. It was—I believe so. about the job? MR. BRYANT: I can do that, too. I’ll be Q. And that you had come highly rec- A. I believe I testified to that, so that my doing that in a minute. Overruled. Okay. ommended, I think? testimony is probably more accurate. The THE WITNESS: Um, I—I believe he—he A. Yes. gist of it was, um, that I wanted to move to said I should get him a list, and the implica- Q. Did he, Mr. Jordan, review your list of New York and that I was accepting I wasn’t tion was through Betty. job preferences and suggest anything?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1217 A. Yes. Q. And when would that have been; what break from the telephone call to talk to Ms. Q. And what did he suggest? day? Currie, or do you recall any, any— A. He said the names of the—he looked at A. On the 6th of December 1997. A. I don’t recall that. the list of public relations firms and I think Q. Again you are going through Betty Q. —do you recall any breaks to talk to sort of said, ‘‘oh, I’ve heard of them, I Currie; is that, again, the standard procedure anybody else? haven’t heard of these people, have you at that time? A. I don’t recall that. Doesn’t mean it heard of so and so,’’ that I hadn’t heard of. A. Yes. didn’t happen; I just don’t remember it. Q. Your meeting lasted about 20 minutes? Q. Did you go—I think you spoke also per- Q. What else did you—did you arrange in A. If that’s what I’ve testified to, then I ac- haps to Betty Currie on December the 5th, that telephone conversation, or did he invite cept that. the day before the meeting— you in that telephone conversation to come Q. It is, or close to it. I know this is an ap- A. Yes. to the White House that day? proximation, but thereabouts. You weren’t Q. —and this was something about attend- A. Yes, he did. there all day. ing the President’s speech. Was that when Q. What happened during, during that con- A. I had—well, I don’t—I don’t remember that occurred—or the radio address, or some- versation in terms of—I understand that it how long it was right now. I know I’ve testi- thing? Does that ring any bells? was again an emotional day, some sort of a fied to that. So if I said 20 minutes, then— A. No. word fight; is that right? Q. Did you have a conversation with the Q. Did—you did attend the Christmas party A. Yes. President on—about a week later on Novem- that day— Q. Could you tell me—he was, uh—again, to ber the 12th and by telephone? A. Yes. perhaps save some time—he was angry about A. Yes. Q. —and the White House. And you saw the an earlier incident, and, uh, he felt like you Q. And did you indicate there you had spo- President? were intruding on his lawyer time? ken with Mr. Jordan about a job? A. Yes. A. Uh, he was upset that I hadn’t accepted A. Yes. Q. Just socially, speak to him, and that’s that he just couldn’t see me that day. Q. After you met with Mr. Jordan, did it? Q. And what was your response to that? you—did you have an impression that you A. Yes. A. Probably not positive. Uh, that’s why it would get, uh—get a job, get favorable re- Q. Picture, handshaking, and that? was a fight. sults in your job search? A. [Nodding head.] Q. Again, I want to be careful that I don’t A. Yes. Q. Okay. That’s a yes? put words in your mouth, but you were deal- Q. Did anything favorable happen to—in A. Yes. Sorry. ing with this relationship from an emotional your job search from that November the 5th, Q. Prior to December 6th, 1997, had you standpoint of wanting to spend time with 1997, meeting until Thanksgiving? purchased a Christmas gift for the Presi- him— A. No, but I believe Mr. Jordan was out of dent? A. Yes. town for a week or two. A. Yes. Q. —not as President, but as a man? Q. During the weeks after this November Q. Which was? A. Correct. the 5th interview, did you try to contact Mr. A. An antique standing cigar holder. Q. And this was at a point when you didn’t Jordan? Q. And had you purchased any other addi- feel like you were spending enough time with A. Yes. tional gifts for him? him? Q. How? A. Yes. A. Correct. A. First, I sent him a thank-you note for Q. And what were those? Q. And he obviously felt he had to do other the initial meeting, and I believe I placed A. Uh, a Starbucks mug that said ‘‘Santa things, too, talk to lawyers and do those some phone calls right before Thanks- Monica’’; a necktie that I got in London; a kinds of things—be the President—is that giving—maybe a phone call. I don’t remem- little box—I call it a ‘‘chochki’’—from, uh— right? ber if it was more than one. and an antique book on Theodore Roosevelt. A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, was some of this discussion Q. What—what happened with respect to Q. Was it your intention to, to carry those that we term ‘‘the fight,’’ was that over the the job search, uh, through there, through Christmas presents to the President home telephone? Thanksgiving? Was there anything? I mean, that Saturday, December the 6th? A. Yes. It was all over the telephone. I know he—you said he was out of down, but A. If I were to have a meeting with him, Q. So by the time you arrived and had the did anything, to your knowledge, occur? yes. face-to-face meeting with him, that was Could you see any results up to Thanks- Q. Did you attempt to have a meeting? over? giving? A. Yes. A. Correct. A. From my meeting with Mr. Jordan? Q. Did you go through Betty Currie? Q. Was that during the time that you ex- Q. Yes. A. Yes. I sent her the letter to, to give to changed—exchanged some of the Christmas A. No. the President. Q. Did you contact Betty Currie after you presents with him? Q. And when you went to the White House A. In—in the meeting? received no response from Mr. Jordan? that day, you also attempted to, to have the A. Yes. Q. Yes. meeting through calling Betty Currie and Q. And did she page you? I think you were A. Yes. I gave him my Christmas presents. telephoning her; I believe you had to go to— in Los Angeles at the time. Q. Did you discuss the job search with him A. Which day? I’m sorry. A. Correct. also at that time? Q. On the 6th. Q. Okay. What—what did she tell you as a A. I believe I mentioned it. A. No. result of that telephone call? Q. Did you tell him that, uh, your job Q. The Saturday. A. She asked me to place a call to Mr. Jor- search with Mr. Jordan was not going well? A. [No response.] dan, which I did. A. I don’t know if I used those words. I Q. And this would have been, again, around Q. No? don’t, I don’t remember exactly— A. I—I attempted to give the presents to November the 26th, shortly—well, around Q. If your grand jury testimony said yes— Betty, but I didn’t call and attempt to have Thanksgiving? I mean, words to that effect—that would— A. It was before Thanksgiving. a meeting there—well, I guess I called in the you could have used those words if they’re in Q. And I assume you found Mr. Jordan. morning, so that’s not true—I’m sorry. Yes, your grand jury— A. Yes. I called Ms. Currie in the morning trying to A. If my grand jury testimony says that— Q. And what did he tell you? see if I could see the President and apologize. if that’s what I said in my grand jury testi- A. That he was working on it. Q. And—were you—did you see the Presi- mony, then I accept that. Q. Did he tell you to call him back? dent, then, on the 6th? Q. I’m not trying to—I’m not trying to A. Yes. A. Yes, I did. trick you. Q. Did you indeed call him back Q. Tell us about that meeting—that was a A. Okay. A. I didn’t actually get ahold of him; he long—was that, uh—did you have a telephone Q. Did he make any comment to you about was out-of-town that day. I think it was De- conversation with him that day also? what he might do to aid in your job search at cember 5th. A. Yes. that time, if you recall? Q. Did you try to meet with the President Q. And that was the long telephone con- A. I think he—I think he said, oh, let me during this time? versation? see about it, let me see what I can do—his A. Yes. A. It—it was. usual. Q. How did you do that? Q. Okay. I think there has been some indi- Q. Did, uh, did the President say anything A. I was a pest. I sent a note to Ms. Currie cation it may have been 56 minutes, some- to you at that time about your name appear- and asked her to pass it along to the Presi- thing approximating an hour-long conversa- ing on a witness list in the Paula Jones case? dent, requesting that I meet with him. tion; does that sound right? A. No. Q. Were you successful in having a meeting A. Right. That would—that might include Q. Did you later learn that your name had as a result of those efforts? some conversation time with Ms. Currie as appeared on such a list? A. I don’t know if it was a result of those well. A. Yes. efforts, but yes, I ended up having a meeting Q. Okay. Was he interrupted by Ms. Q. And did you later learn that that wit- with the President. Currie—could you tell—did he have to take a ness list had been faxed to the White House—

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1218 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 to the President’s lawyers on December the was on a witness list for the Paula Jones said I should, uh, I should let Ms. Currie 5th? case; and thirdly, he mentioned the Christ- know. Uh— A. Much later, as in last year. mas present he had for me. Q. Did he say anything about an affidavit? Q. Okay. Yes—that’s what I mean—later. Q. This telephone call was somewhere in A. Yes. A. I, I mean— the early morning hours of 2 o’clock to 2:30. Q. What did he say? Q. Yes. A. Correct. A. He said that, uh, that I could possibly A. —post this investigation. Q. Did it surprise you that he called you so file an affidavit if I—if I were subpoenaed, Q. Okay. All right. Let’s go forward an- late? that I could possibly file an affidavit maybe other week or so to December the 11th and a A. No. to avoid being deposed. lunch that you had with Vernon Jordan, I be- Q. Was this your first notice of your name Q. How did he tell you you would avoid lieve, in his office. being on the Paula Jones witness list? being deposed by filing an affidavit? A. Yes. A. Yes. A. I don’t think he did. Q. How did—how was that meeting set up. Q. I realize he, he commented about some Q. You just accepted that statement? A. Through his secretary. other things, but I do want to focus on the A. [Nodding head.] Q. Did you instigate that, or did he call witness list. Q. Yes? through his secretary? A. Okay. A. Yes, yes. Sorry. A. I don’t remember. Q. Did he say anything to you about how Q. Are you, uh—strike that. Did he make Q. What was the purpose of that meeting? he felt concerning this witness list? any representation to you about what you A. Uh, it was to discuss my job situation. A. He said it broke his heart that, well, could say in that affidavit or— Q. And what, what—how was that dis- that my name was on the witness list. A. No. cussed? Can I take a break, please? I’m sorry. Q. What did you understand you would be A. Uh, Mr. Jordan gave me a list of three SENATOR DeWINE: Sure, sure. We’ll take saying in that affidavit to avoid testifying? names and suggested that I contact these a 5–minute break at this point. A. Uh, I believe I’ve testified to this in the people in a letter that I should cc him on, THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the grand jury. To the best of my recollection, it and that’s what I did. end of Videotape Number 1 in the deposition was, uh—to my mind came—it was a range of Q. Did he ask you to copy him on the let- of Monica S. Lewinsky. We are going off the things. I mean, it could either be, uh, some- ters that you sent out? record at 10:56 a.m. thing innocuous or could go as far as having A. Yes. [Recess.] to deny the relationship. Not being a lawyer Q. During this meeting, did he make any THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the be- nor having gone to law school, I thought it comments about your status as a friend of ginning of Videotape Number 2 in the deposi- could be anything. the President? tion of Monica S. Lewinsky. The time is 11:10 Q. Did he at that point suggest one version A. Yes. a.m. or the other version? Q. What—what did he say? SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on A. No. I didn’t even mention that, so there, A. In one of his remarks, he said something the record. there wasn’t a further discussion—there was about me being a friend of the President. I will advise the House Managers that they no discussion of what would be in an affi- Q. And did you respond? have used one hour and 8 minutes. davit. A. Yes. Mr. Bryant, you may proceed. Q. When you say, uh, it would be—it could Q. How? MR. BRYANT: Thank you. have been something where the relationship A. I said that I didn’t, uh—I think I—my By MR. BRYANT: was denied, what was your thinking at that grand jury testimony, I know I talked about Q. Did—did we get your response? We were point? this, so it’s probably more accurate. My talking about the discussion you were hav- A. I—I—I think I don’t understand what memory right now is I said something about, ing with the President over the telephone, you’re asking me. I’m sorry. uh, seeing him more as, uh, a man than as a early morning of the December 17th phone Q. Well, based on prior relations with the President, and I treated him accordingly. call, and he had, uh, mentioned that it broke President, the concocted stories and those Q. Did you express your frustration to Mr. his heart that you were on that list. things like that, did this come to mind? Was Jordan with, uh, with the President? A. Correct. there some discussion about that, or did it A. I expressed that sometimes I had frus- Q. And I think you were about to comment come to your mind about these stories—the trations with him, yes. on that further, and then you need a break. cover stories? Q. And what was his response to you about, A. No. A. Not in connection with the—not in con- uh—after you talked about the President? Q. No. nection with the affidavit. A. Uh, he sort of jokingly said to me, You A. I just wanted to be able to focus—I Q. How would—was there any discussion of know what your problem is, and don’t deny know this is an important date, so I felt I how you would accomplish preparing or fil- it—you’re in love with him. But it was a sort need a few moments to be able to focus on it. ing an affidavit at that point? of light-hearted nature. Q. And you’re comfortable now with that, A. No. Q. Did you—did you have a response to with your—you are ready to talk about that? Q. Why—why didn’t you want to testify? that? A. Comfortable, I don’t know, but I’m Why would not you—why would you have A. I probably blushed or giggled or some- ready to talk about. wanted to avoid testifying? thing. Q. Well, I mean comfortable that you can A. First of all, I thought it was nobody’s Q. Do you still have feelings for the Presi- focus on it. business. Second of all, I didn’t want to have dent? A. Yes, sir. anything to do with Paula Jones or her case. A. I have mixed feelings. Q. Good. Now, with this discussion of the And—I guess those two reasons. Q. What, uh—maybe you could tell us a lit- fact that your name appeared as a witness, Q. You—you have already mentioned that tle bit more about what those mixed feelings had you—had you been asleep that night you were not a lawyer and you had not been are. when the phone rang? to law school, those kinds of things. Did, uh, A. I think what you need to know is that A. Yes. did you understand when you—the potential my grand jury testimony is truthful irre- Q. So were you wide awake by this point? legal problems that you could have caused spective of whatever those mixed feelings are It’s the President calling you, so I guess yourself by allowing a false affidavit to be in my testimony today. you’re—you wake up. filed with the court, in a court proceeding? Q. I know in your grand jury you men- A. I wouldn’t say wide awake. A. During what time—I mean—I—can you tioned some of your feelings that you felt Q. He expressed to you that your name— be—I’m sorry— after he spoke publicly about the relation- you know, again, you talked about some Q. At this point, I may ask it again at later ship, but let me ask you more about the other things—but he told you your name was points, but the night of the telephone— positive—you said there were mixed feelings. on the list. A. Are you—are you still referring to De- What about—do you still, uh, respect the A. Correct. cember 17th? President, still admire the President? Q. What was your reaction to that? Q. The night of the phone call, he’s sug- A. Yes. A. I was scared. gesting you could file an affidavit. Did you Q. Do you still appreciate what he is doing Q. What other discussion did you have in appreciate the implications of filing a false for this country as the President? regard to the fact that your name was on the affidavit with the court? A. Yes. list? You were scared; he was disappointed, A. I don’t think I necessarily thought at Q. Sometime back in December of 1997, in or it broke his heart. What other discussion that point it would have to be false, so, no, the morning of December the 17th, did you did you have? probably not. I don’t—I don’t remember hav- receive a call from the President? A. Uh, I believe he said that, uh—and these ing any thoughts like that, so I imagine I A. Yes. are not necessarily direct quotes, but to the would remember something like that, and I Q. What was the purpose of that call? What best of my memory, that he said something don’t, but— did you talk about? about that, uh, just because my name was on Q. Did you know what an affidavit was? A. It was threefold—first, to tell me that the list didn’t necessarily mean I’d be sub- A. Sort of. Ms. Currie’s brother had been killed in a car poenaed; and at some point, I asked him Q. Of course, you’re talking at that time accident; second, to tell me that my name what I should do if I received a subpoena. He by telephone to the President, and he’s—and

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1219 he is a lawyer, and he taught law school—I tioned to you that perhaps you could file an President’s tone change to a more receptive, don’t know—did you know that? Did you affidavit to avoid possible testifying in that friendly conversation? know he was a lawyer? case. Is that right? A. Yes. A. I—I think I knew it, but it wasn’t some- A. Correct. Q. Do you know why that happened? thing that was present in my, in my Q. And he has also, I think, now at the A. No, nor do I remember whose tone thoughts, as in he’s a lawyer, he’s telling me, point that we were in our questioning, ref- changed first. I mean, we made up, so— you know, something. erenced the cover story that you and he had Q. Okay. Now let me go back again to the Q. Did the, did the President ever tell you, had, that perhaps you could say that you December 11th date—I’m sorry—the 17th. caution you, that you had to tell the truth in were coming to my office to deliver papers or This is the conversation in the morning. an affidavit? to see Betty Currie; is that right? What else—was there anything else you A. Not that I recall. A. Correct. It was from the entire relation- talked about in terms of—other than your Q. It would have been against his interest ship, that story. name being on the list and the affidavit and in that lawsuit for you to have told the Q. Now, when he alluded to that cover the cover story? truth, would it not? story, was that instantly familiar to you? A. Yes. I had—I had had my own thoughts A. I’m not really comfortable—I mean, I A. Yes. on why and how he should settle the case, can tell you what would have been in my Q. You knew what he was talking about? and I expressed those thoughts to him. And best interest, but I— A. Yes. at some point, he mentioned that he still had Q. But you didn’t file the affidavit for your Q. And why was this familiar to you? this Christmas present for me and that best interest, did you? A. Because it was part of the pattern of the maybe he would ask Mrs. Currie to come in A. Uh, actually, I did. relationship. that weekend, and I said not to because she Q. To avoid testifying. Q. Had you actually had to use elements of was obviously going to be in mourning be- A. Yes. this cover story in the past? cause of her brother. A. I think so, yes. Q. But had you testified truthfully, you Q. In—in that—in that relationship with Q. Did the President ever tell you what to would have had no—certainly, no legal im- the President, I think you have expressed in say if anyone asked you about telephone plications—it may have been embarrassing, your testimony somewhere that you weren’t conversations that you had had with him? but you would have not had any legal prob- necessarily jealous of those types of people A. Are we—are we still focused on Decem- lems, would you? like Kathleen Willey or Paula Jones, and A. That’s true. ber 17th? Q. No, no. perhaps you didn’t even believe those stories Q. Did you discuss anything else that night A. Okay. occurred as—as they alleged. in terms of—I would draw your attention to Q. It did not have to be that night. Did he A. That’s correct. I don’t—I don’t know, the cover stories. I have alluded to that ear- ever? jealous or not jealous. I don’t think I’ve tes- lier, but, uh, did you talk about cover story A. If I could just—I—I’m pretty date-ori- tified to my feelings of jealousy, but the lat- that night? ented, so if you could just be more specific ter half of the question is true. A. Yes, sir. with the date. If we’re staying on a date or Q. I—I saw it. I mean, it’s not a major Q. And what was said? leaving that date, it would just help me. I’m point. I thought I saw that in your testi- A. Uh, I believe that, uh, the President said sorry. mony, that particular word. something—you can always say you were Q. Well, my question was phrased did he A. Okay. If I said that, then I—I don’t. coming to see Betty or bringing me papers. ever do that, but— Q. Was it your belief that the Paula Jones Q. I think you’ve testified that you’re sure A. Okay. case was not a valid lawsuit? Was that part he said that that night. You are sure he said Q. Well, I—I’m sorry. I’m playing guessing of that discussion that night, or your strat- that that night? games with you. Was there a conversation on egy? A. Yes. March 29th of 1997 when the President told A. Uh, can I separate that—that into two Q. Now, was that in connection with the af- you he thought perhaps his telephone con- questions? fidavit? versations were being tapped or taped—ei- Q. Any way, any way you want to. A. I don’t believe so, no. ther way, or both—by a foreign embassy? A. Okay. I don’t believe it was a valid law- Q. Why would he have told you you could A. Yes. suit, and I don’t think whether I believed it always say that? Q. And was there some reference to some was a valid lawsuit or not was the topic of A. I don’t know. sort of cover story there in the event that the conversation. Mr. BURTON: Objection. You’re asking her his line was tapped? Q. Okay, that’s a fair answer. to speculate on someone else’s testimony. A. Yes. You believe the President’s version of the MR. BRYANT: Let me make a point here. Q. And what was that? Paula Jones incident? I’ve been very patient in trying to get along, A. That—I think, if I remember it cor- A. Is that relevant to— but as I alluded to earlier, and I said I am rectly, it was that we—that he knew that we Q. I—I just asked you the question. not going to hold a hard line to this, but I were sort of engaging in those types of con- A. I don’t believe Paula Jones’ version of don’t think the President’s—the witness’ versations, uh, knowing that someone was the story. lawyers ought to be objecting to this testi- listening, so that it was not for the purposes Q. Okay, good. That’s a fair answer. mony. If there’s an objection here, it should that it might have seemed. You have testified previously that you come from the White House side, nor should Q. Did you find it a little strange that he tried to maintain secrecy regarding this re- they be— would express concern about possible eaves- lationship—and we’re talking about obvi- SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, why don’t dropping and still persist in these calls to ously with the President. Is that true? you rephrase the question? you? A. Yes. MR. BRYANT: Do we have a clear ruling A. I don’t think phone calls of that nature Q. And to preserve the secrecy and I guess on whether they can object? occurred and happened right after, or soon advance this cover story, you would bring SENATOR DeWINE: We’ll go off the record after that discussion. I think it was quite a papers to the President and always use Betty for a moment. few months until that resumed. Currie for the excuse for you to be WAVE’d THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the Q. I think my question was more did you in. Is that right? record at 11:20 a.m. not find it a little strange that he felt that A. Papers when I was working at the White [Recess.] perhaps his phone was being tapped and con- House and Mrs. Currie after I left the White THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back versations taped by a foreign embassy, and House. So Mrs. Currie wasn’t involved when on the record at 11:30 a.m. he— I was working at the White House. SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on A. I—I thought it was strange, but if—I Q. Were these papers you carried in to the the record. mean, I wasn’t going to question what he President—were they—were they business It’s our opinion that counsel for Ms. was saying to me. documents, or were they more personal pa- Lewinsky do have the right to make objec- Q. But that he also continued to make the pers from you to him? tions. We would ask them to be as short and calls—you’re saying he didn’t make any calls A. They—they weren’t business documents. concise as humanly possible. So we will now after that? Q. So, officially, you were not carrying in proceed. A. No. My understanding was it was ref- official papers? Mr. Bryant? erencing a certain type of phone call, certain A. Correct. MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Senator. nature of phone call, uh, and those— Q. You were carrying in personal papers BY MR. BRYANT: Q. Let me direct your attention back to a that would not have entitled you ordinarily Q. Let’s kind of bring this back together point I did not mention a couple—a few days to go see the President? again, and I’ll try to ask sharper questions before the December—early December tele- A. Correct. and avoid these objections. phone call, the lengthy telephone call from Q. When—in this procedure where Betty We’re at that point that we’ve got a tele- the President. We had talked about how that Currie was always the one that WAVE’d you phone conversation in the morning with you was a heated conversation. in to the White House—and I—I don’t know and the President, and he has among other A. Correct. if the people who may be watching this depo- things mentioned to you that your name is Q. At—did at some point during that tele- sition, the Senators, understand that the on the Jones witness list. He has also men- phone conversation—did the tone—did the WAVES process is just the—to give the

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1220 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 guards the okay for you to come in. Is that A. I think I actually remember reading Q. The President did not in that conversa- a short synopsis? part of my grand jury testimony about this tion on December the 17th of 1997 or any A. I’m not really versed on— and that it was more specific in that she was other conversation, for that matter, instruct Q. I’m not either. You know more than I in the loop about my friendship with the you to tell the truth; is that correct? do, probably, since you worked there, but— President, but I just want to not nec- A. That’s correct. A. Well, I know you had to go, you had to essarily—there was a clarification, I believe, Q. And prior to being on the witness list, type in a thing in at WAVES, and now you in that about knowledge of the complete re- you—you both spoke— have to give a Social Security, birth date, lationship or not. So— A. Well, I guess any conversation in rela- have to show ID. Q. She would help with the gifts and notes tion to the Paula Jones case. I can’t say that Q. Is there a record kept of that? and things like that—the passing? any conversation from the—the entire rela- A. I believe so. A. Yes. tionship that he didn’t ever say, you know, Q. Was it always Betty Currie that Q. Would you agree that these cover sto- ‘‘Are you mad? Tell me the truth.’’ So— WAVE’d you in to the—access to the White ries that you’ve just testified to, if they were Q. And prior to being on the witness list, House? I’m talking about now after you left told to the attorneys for Paula Jones, that you both spoke about denying this relation- and went to work at the Pentagon. they would be misleading to them and not be ship if asked? A. No. the whole story, the whole truth? A. Yes. That was discussed. Q. Other people did that? A. They would—yes, I guess misleading. Q. He would say something to the effect A. There were other reasons that I came to They were literally true, but they would be that—or you would say that—you—you the White House at times. misleading, so incomplete. would deny anything if it ever came up, and Q. Did you ever ask the President if he Q. As I understand your testimony, too, he would nod or say that’s good, something would WAVE you in? the cover stories were reiterated to you by to that effect; is that right? A. Yes. the President that night on the telephone— A. Yes, I believe I testified to that. Q. Did he ever do that? A. Correct. Q. Let me shift gears just a minute and ask A. No, not to my—not to my knowledge. Q. —and after he told you you would be a you about—and I’m going to be delicate Q. Was there a reason? Did he express any- witness—or your name was on the witness about this because I’m conscious of people thing to you why he would or would not? list, I should say? here in the room and my—my own personal A. Yes. He said that, uh—I believe he said A. Correct. concerns—but I want to refer you to the first something about that there’s a specific list Q. And did you understand that since your so-called salacious occasion, and I’m not made of people that he requests to come in name was on the witness list that there going to get into the details. I’m not— and—and there are people who have access to would be a possibility that you could be sub- A. Can—can we—can you call it something that list. poenaed to testify in the Paula Jones case? else? Q. So, obviously, he didn’t want your name A. I think I understood that I could be sub- Q. Okay. being on that list? poenaed, and there was a possibility of testi- A. I mean, this is—this is my relation- A. Correct. fying. I don’t know if I necessarily thought ship— Q. Now, some of those people— Q. What would you like to call it? A. I think—well, that’s my understanding. it was a subpoena to testify, but— Q. Were you in fact subpoenaed to testify? A. —so, I mean, is— Q. Would some of those people be the peo- Q. This is the—or this was— ple that worked outside his office, Ms. Lie- A. Yes. Q. And that was what— A. It was my first encounter with the berman and those—those folks? President, so I don’t really see it as my first A. I—I believe so, but I’m not really sure. A. December 19th, 1997. Q. December 19th. salacious—that’s not what this was. Q. Did you not want those people to know Q. Well, that’s kind of been the word that’s that you were inside the White House? Now, you have testified in the grand jury. I think your closing comments was that no been picked up all around. So— A. I didn’t. A. Right. one ever asked you to lie, but yet in that Q. Why is that? Q. —let’s stay on this first— very conversation of December the 17th, 1997 A. Because they didn’t like me. A. Encounter, maybe? Q. Would they have objected, do you when the President told you that you were Q. Encounter, okay. think—if you know. on the witness list, he also suggested that A. Okay. A. I don’t know. you could sign an affidavit and use mis- Q. So we all know what we’re talking Q. Did you work with Betty Currie on occa- leading cover stories. Isn’t that correct? about. You had several of these encounters, sions to—to get in to see the President, per- A. Uh—well, I—I guess in my mind, I sepa- perhaps 10 or 11 of these encounters; is that haps bypass some of these people? rate necessarily signing affidavit and using right? A. Yes. misleading cover stories. So, does— A. Yes. Q. And that would be another way that you Q. Well, those two— Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the first one would conceal the meeting with the Presi- A. Those three events occurred, but they on November the 15th, 1995, you have testi- dent, by using Betty Currie to get you in? don’t—they weren’t linked for me. fied to a set of facts where the President ac- A. I—I think, yes, be cautious of it. Q. But they were in the same conversation, tually touched you in certain areas—is that Q. Did—well, I think we’ve covered that, were they not? right—and that’s—that’s where I want to go. about some papers, and I think we’ve covered A. Yes, they were. That’s as far as I want to go with that ques- that after you left your job inside the White Q. Did you understand in the context of the tion. House with Legislative Affairs and went to conversation that you would deny the—the MR. CACHERIS: If that’s as far as it goes, the Pentagon, you developed a story, a cover President and your relationship to the Jones we will not object— story to the effect that you were going to see lawyers? MR. BRYANT: Okay. Betty, that’s how you would come in offi- A. Do you mean from what was said to me MR. CACHERIS: —and if it goes any fur- cially? or— ther, we will object. A. Correct. Q. In the context of that—in the context of MR. BRYANT: Okay. Q. And during that time that you were at that conversation, December the 17th— BY MR. BRYANT: the Pentagon, you would more likely visit A. I—I don’t—I didn’t— Q. You have testified to that? him on weekends or during the week? Which Q. Okay. Let me ask it. Did you under- A. Yes. would—which would— stand in the context of the telephone con- Q. And I have the excerpts out, and I A. Weekends. versation with the President that early don’t—but they’ve been adopted and affirmed Q. Weekends. And why—why the week- morning of December the 17th—did you un- as true. So I’m not going to get—get you ends? derstand that you would deny your relation- looking at—have you read those excerpts. A. First, I think he had less work, and sec- ship with the President to the Jones lawyers A. I appreciate that. ond of all, there were—I believe there were through use of these cover stories? Q. Now, in the—in later testimony before less people around. A. From what I learned in that—oh, the grand jury, you were given a definition, Q. Now, whose idea was it for you to come through those cover stories, I don’t know, and in fact it was the same definition that on weekends? but from what I learned in that conversa- was used in the Paula Jones lawsuit, of ‘‘sex- A. I believe it was the President’s. tion, I thought to myself I knew I would ual relations.’’ Do you recall the— Q. When you—when the President was in deny the relationship. A. So I’ve read. his office, was your purpose to go there and Q. And you would deny the relationship to Q. Yes. see him? If he was in the office, you would go the Jones lawyers? A. I was not shown that definition. see him? A. Yes, correct. Q. But you were asked a question that in- A. What—I’m sorry. Q. Good. corporated that definition. Q. No—that’s not clear. I’ll withdraw that A. If—if that’s what it came to. A. Not prior to this whole—not prior to the question. Q. And in fact you did deny the relation- Independent Counsel getting involved. Was Ms. Currie, the President’s secretary— ship to the Jones lawyers in the affidavit Q. But—no—it was the Independent Coun- was she in the loop, so to speak, in keeping that you signed under penalty of perjury; is sels themselves who asked you this question. this relationship and how you got in and out that right? A. Right. Oh, so you’re—you’re saying in of the White House, keeping that quiet? A. I denied a sexual relationship. the grand jury, I was shown a definition of—

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1221 Q. Right. tified to, closer to the date. Sometime in the A. Yes, yes. A. Yes, that’s correct. late afternoon. Q. And what were those concerns? Q. And you admitted in that answer to Q. Did they call you, and you had to come A. In general, I think I was just concerned that question that the conduct that you were out of your office and go outside— about being dragged into this, and I was con- involved in, the encounter of November the A. Correct. cerned because the subpoena had called for a 15th, 1995, fit within that definition of ‘‘sex- Q. —and do that? hatpin, that I turn over a hatpin, and that ual relations’’? Okay. And what did you do after you ac- was an alarm to me. A. The second encounter of that evening cepted service of the subpoena? Q. How—in what sense was it—in what did. A. I started crying. sense was it an alarm to you? Q. Right. Q. Did he just give it to you and walk A. The hatpin being on the subpoena was And were there other similar encounters away, or did he give you any kind of expla- evidence to me that someone had given that later on with the President, not that day, nation? information to the Paula Jones people. but other occasions that would have likewise A. I think I made a stink. I think I was Q. What did Mr. Jordan say about the sub- fit into that definition of ‘‘sexual relations’’ trying to hope that he would convey to the poena? in the Paula Jones case? Paula Jones attorneys that I didn’t know A. That it was standard. A. Yes. And—yes. why they were doing this, and this is ridicu- Q. Did he have any—did he have any com- Q. There was more than one occasion lous, and he said something or another, there ment about the specificity of the hatpin? where that occurred? is a check here for witness fee. And I said I A. No. A. Correct. don’t want their stinking money, and so— Q. And did you— Q. So, if the President testifies that he did Q. What did you do after, after you got A. He just kept telling me to calm down. not—he was not guilty of having a sexual re- through the emotional part? Q. Did you raise that concern with Mr. Jor- lationship under the Paula Jones definition A. I went to a pay phone, and I called Mr. dan? even, then that testimony is not truthful, is Jordan. A. I don’t remember if—if I’ve testified to it? Q. Any reason you went to a pay phone, it, then yes. If—I don’t remember right now. MR. CACHERIS: Objection. She should not and why did you call Mr. Jordan? Two ques- Q. Did—would you have remembered then be called upon to testify what was in the tions, please. if he made any comment or answer about the mind of another person. She’s testifying to A. First is because my office in the Pen- hatpin? the facts, and she has given the facts. tagon was probably a room this size and A. I mean, I think I would. MR. BRYANT: I would ask that she answer has—let’s see, one, two, three, four—four Q. And you don’t remember? the question. other people in it, and there wasn’t much A. I—I remember him saying something SENATOR DeWINE: Go ahead. privacy. So that I think that’s obvious why that it was—you know, calm down, it’s a SENATOR LEAHY: The objection is noted I wouldn’t want to discuss it there. standard subpoena or vanilla subpoena, for the record. And the second question was why Mr. Jor- something like that. SENATOR DeWINE: The objection is dan— Q. Did you ask Mr. Jordan to call the noted. She may answer the question. Q. Why did you call Mr. Jordan; yes. President and advise him of the subpoena? THE WITNESS: I—I really— A. Because I couldn’t call Mrs. Currie be- A. I think so, yes. I asked him to inform SENATOR LEAHY: If she can. cause it was—I hadn’t expected to be subpoe- the President. I don’t know if it was through THE WITNESS: —don’t feel comfortable naed that soon. So she was grieving with her telephone or not. characterizing whether what he said was brother’s passing away, and I didn’t know Q. And you did that because the President truthful or not truthful. I know I’ve testified who else to turn to. So— had asked you to make sure you let Betty to what I believe is true. Q. And what—what occurred with that con- know that? BY MR. BRYANT: versation with Mr. Jordan? A. Well, sure. With Betty not being in the Q. Well, truth is not a wandering standard. A. Well, I remember that—that he couldn’t office, I couldn’t—there wasn’t anyone else A. Well— understand me because I was crying. So he that I could call to get through to him. Q. I would hope not. But you have testified, kept saying: ‘‘I don’t understand what you’re Q. Did Mr. Jordan say to you when he as I’ve told you, that what you and he did to- saying. I don’t understand what you’re say- might see the President next? gether on November the 15th, 1995 fit that ing.’’ A. I believe he said he would see him that definition of the Paula Jones, and you’ve in- And I just was crying and crying and cry- evening at a holiday reception. dicated that there were other occasions that ing. And so all I remember him saying was: Q. Did Mr. Jordan during that meeting likewise— ‘‘Oh, just come here at 5 o’clock.’’ make an inquiry about the nature of the re- A. Yes, sir. So I did. lationship between you and the President? Q. —that that occurred. Q. You went to see Mr. Jordan, and you A. Yes, he did. But now the President has indicated as a were inside his office after 5 o’clock, and you Q. What was that inquiry? part of his specific defense—he has filed an did—is that correct? A. I don’t remember the exact wording of answer with this Senate denying that this A. Yes. the questions, but there were two questions, occurred, that he did these actions. Q. Were—were you interrupted, in the of- and I think they were something like did you A. I know. I’m not trying to be difficult, fice? have sex with the President or did he—and but there is a portion of that definition that A. Yes. He received a phone call. if—or did he ask for it or some—something Q. And you testified that you didn’t know says, you know, with intent, and I don’t feel like that. who that was that called? comfortable characterizing what someone Q. Did you—what did you suspect at that A. Correct. else’s intent was. point with these questions from Mr. Jordan Q. Did you excuse yourself? I can tell you that I—my memory of this in terms of did he know or not know about A. Yes. this? relationship and what I remember happened Q. What—after you came back in, what— A. Well, I wasn’t really sure. I mean, two fell within that definition. what occurred? Did he tell you who he had If you want to—I don’t know if there’s an- things. I think there is—I know I’ve testified been talking to? to this, that there was another component to other way to phrase that, but I’m just not A. No. comfortable commenting on someone else’s Q. Okay. What happened next? all of this being Linda Tripp and her—what intent or state of mind or what they A. I know I’ve testified about this— she might have led me to believe or led me thought. Q. Yes. to think and how that might have character- Q. Let’s move forward to December the A. —so I stand by that testimony, and my ized how I was perceiving the situation. 19th, 1997, at that point you made reference recollection right now is when I came back I—I sort of felt that I didn’t know if he was to earlier. in the room, I think shortly after he had asking me as what are you going to say be- A. I’m sorry. Can you repeat the date placed a phone call to—to Mr. Carter’s office, cause I—I don’t know these answer to these again? I’m sorry. and told me to come to his office at 10:30 questions, or he was asking me as I know the Q. Yes. December the 19th, 1997. Monday morning. answer to these questions and what are you A. Okay, sorry. Q. Did you know who Mr. Carter was? going to say. So, either way, for me, the an- Q. At that point where you testified that A. No. swer was no and no. you received a subpoena in the Paula Jones Q. Did Mr. Jordan tell you who he was? Q. And that’s just what I wanted to ask case, and that was, of course, on December A. No—I don’t remember. you—you did answer no to both of those, the 19th, 1997. Q. Did you understand he was going to be but— Do you recall the specific time of day and your attorney? A. Yes. where you were when you were served with A. Yes. Q. —as you explained—you didn’t mention the subpoena? Q. Did you express any concerns about this directly, but you mentioned in some of A. I was actually handed the subpoena at the—the subpoena? your earlier testimony about it, that this the Metro entrance of the Pentagon—at the A. I think that happened before the phone was kind of a wink and—you thought this Pentagon, and the time—I think it was call came. might be a wink-and-nod conversation, around 4:30—4—I—I—if I’ve testified to some- Q. Okay, but did you express concerns where he really knew what was going on, thing different, then, I accept whatever I tes- about the subpoena? but—

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1222 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 A. Well, I think that’s what I just said. House, would that occur when the President Q. All right. I’m going to go around this a Q. —he was testing you to see what you was there? I mean, you went in— little bit without getting into details. You would say? A. There—there were times that I went to had a conversation with Mr. Jordan to de- A. —that I wasn’t—I—that was one of the— see Mrs. Currie when the President wasn’t tail—to give him more specific details of that was one of the things that went through there. your relationship with the President. my mind. I mean, it was not—I think that’s Q. Right. And she would WAVE you in. A. Uh, to give him more details of some of what I just testified to, didn’t I? A. Correct. the types of phone calls that we had. Q. You didn’t use the term ‘‘wink-and- Q. And there were times other people Q. Okay. Uh, did you ask Mr. Jordan had nod,’’ though. WAVE’d you in when the President wasn’t he spoken with the President during that A. Oh. there? conversation? Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. A. Correct. A. Yes, I believe so. Jordan during that meeting about the spe- Q. But when the President was there, and Q. And why was this—why did you need to cifics of an affidavit? you were going to see the President, Ms. know that, or why was it important that you A. No. Currie was the one that always WAVE’d you know that? Q. Do you know if the subject of an affi- in? A. I wanted the President to know I’d been davit even came up? A. Yes, and I think, unless—maybe on the subpoenaed. A. I don’t think so. occasions of the radio address or it was an Q. Did, uh—in your, uh, proffer, you say Q. What happened next? Is that when he official function. that you made it clear to Mr. Jordan that made the call to Mr. Carter, after this con- Q. Now, I think we talked a little bit about you would deny the sexual relationship. Do versation? this. During your December the 19th meeting you recall saying that in your proffer? A. No. He made the call to Mr.—I think— with Mr. Jordan, uh, he did schedule you a A. Uh, I know—I know that was written in well, I think he made the call to Mr. Carter, time to meet, uh, and introduce you to Mr. my proffer. uh, shortly after I came back into the room, Carter? Q. Okay. Well, I guess the better question but I could be wrong. A. Correct. is did you—did you in fact make that clear Q. And then the meeting concluded after Q. And that—when was that meeting with to Mr. Jordan that you would deny a sexual that—after the appointment was set up with Mr. Carter scheduled? relationship with the President? Mr. Carter, the meeting concluded? A. Uh, I believe for—it was Monday morn- A. I—I’m not really sure. I—this is sort of A. Yes. ing. I think it was 11 o’clock, around—some- an area that, uh, has been difficult for me. I SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, we’re time around that time. think, as I might have discussed in the grand going to need to break sometime in the next Q. And my notes say that would have been jury, that when I originally wrote this prof- 5 minutes. Is this a good time, or do you December the 22nd, 1997. fer, it was to be a road map and, really, want to complete— A. Correct. something to help me to get immunity and MR. BRYANT: This is a good time. Q. Did you, uh, call to meet him earlier, not necessarily—it’s not perfect. SENATOR DeWINE: Okay. We’ll take a 5– and if so, why? Uh, so, I think that was my intention—I minute break. A. Yes. I had—I had had some concerns know that was my intention of—or at least THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the over the weekend that I didn’t know if—if what I thought I was doing—but I never real- record at 12:04 p.m. Mr. Jordan knew about the relationship or ly thought that this would become the be-all [Recess.] didn’t know about the relationship. I was and end-all, my proffer. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back concerned about—I’m sure you can under- Q. Did, uh, did you bring with you to the on the record at 12:16 p.m. stand that I was dealing with a set of facts meeting with Mr. Jordan, and for the pur- SENATOR DeWINE: We are back on the that were very different from what the Presi- pose of carrying it, I guess, to Mr. Carter, record. dent knew about being pulled into this case items in response to this request for produc- Let me advise House Managers that they in that I had, in fact, disclosed information. tion? have consumed one hour and 54 minutes. So I was very paranoid, and, uh, I, uh, I—I A. Yes. Mr. Bryant, you may proceed. was trying to—trying to see what Mr. Jordan Q. Did you discuss those items with Mr. MR. BRYANT: Thank you, sir. knew was—was trying to inform him, was Jordan? BY MR. BRYANT: trying to just get a better grasp of what was A. I think I showed them to him, but I’m Q. Ms. Lewinsky, let me just cover a cou- going on. not 100 percent sure. If I’ve testified that I ple of quick points, and then I’ll move on to Is that—is that clear? No? did, then I’d stand by that. another area, at least the next meeting with Q. You were—you were worried that Mr. Q. Okay. How did you select those items? Mr. Jordan and eventual meeting with Mr. Jordan didn’t have a—did not have a grasp of A. Uh, actually, kind of in an obnoxious Carter. what was really going on? way, I guess. I—I felt that it was important Back when issues of—we were discussing A. Correct. to take the stand with Mr. Carter and then, the issues of cover stories, uh, would you tell Q. And that would be in terms of actually I guess, to the Jones people that this was ri- me about the, uh, code name with Betty knowing the real relationship between you diculous, that they were—they were looking Currie, the President’s secretary and how and the President? at the wrong person to be involved in this. that worked in terms of the use—I guess the A. Correct. And, in fact, that was true. I know and knew word ‘‘Kay,’’ the name ‘‘Kay,’’ and were Q. So how did you attempt to correct that? nothing of sexual harassment. So I think I there other code names, and when did this A. Well, I—I sort of—I think the way it brought the, uh, Christmas cards, that I’m start? came up was I said, uh—I think I said to Mr. sure everyone in this room has probably got- A. Sure. First, let me say there’s—from my Jordan—I know I’ve testified to this, uh, ten from the President and First Lady, and experience with working with Independent that—something about what about if some- considered that correspondence, and some in- Counsel on this subject area, there—my ini- one overheard the phone calls that I had nocuous pictures and—they were innocuous. tial memory of things and then what I came with him. And Mr. Jordan, I believe, said Q. Were they the kind of items that typi- to learn from, from other evidence, I think, something like: So what? The President’s al- cally, an intern would receive or, like you are sort of two different things. So I initially lowed to call people. said, any one of us might receive? hadn’t remembered when that had happened And then—well. A. I think so. or what had happened. Q. Now, was this at a meeting on December Q. In other words, it wouldn’t give away The name ‘‘Kay’’ was used because Betty the 22nd, before you went to see Mr. Carter? any kind of special relationship? and I first came to know each other and A. Correct. A. Exactly. know—or, I guess I came to know of Mrs. Q. I assume you—you went to Mr. Jordan’s Q. And was that your intent? Currie through Walter Kaye, who was a fam- office first, and then he was going to escort A. Yes. ily friend, and I think that that—I don’t re- you over and turn you over to Mr. Carter? Q. Did you discuss how you selected those member when we started using it, but I know A. Correct. items with anybody? that by January at some point—by let’s just Q. And it was at that meeting that you A. I don’t believe so. say January, I think, 12th or 13th, we were brought up the possibility of someone over- Q. Did Mr. Jordan make any comment doing that. So I know I was beyond paranoid hearing a conversation with the President about those items? at this point. and you—between the two of you? A. No. Q. Was ‘‘Kay’’ your code name, so to A. Yes. Q. Were any of these items eventually speak? Q. What else was said at that meeting with turned over to Mr. Carter? A. I believe—yes, yes. So she was ‘‘Kay’’ Mr. Jordan? A. Yes. and I was ‘‘Kay.’’ A. I think it covered a topic that I thought Q. And did you tell Mr. Jordan at that Q. So any time, uh—not any time—so you we weren’t discussing here. meeting that morning that these were not used the ‘‘Kay’’ name interchangeably be- Q. Uh, okay. All right. I’m not sure. all of the gifts? tween the two—just between the two of you? A. Okay. Well, I—I know I’ve testified to A. I think I—I know I sort of alluded to A. Just for paging messages. this in my—I think in all three, if not both that in my proffer, and I don’t, uh—it’s pos- Q. And, uh, when we’re talking about that of my grand jury appearances, and I’m very sible. I don’t have a specific recollection of Ms. Currie would WAVE you into the White happy to stand by that testimony. that.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1223 Q. And do you have a recollection of any A. Yes. ing here, Mr. Bryant, you have a choice. You response he may have made if you said that? Q. Did you, uh—I guess, generally, what can continue on this line of questioning, and A. No. did you discuss with Mr. Carter? we will have to deal with that, or you can Q. That—did you tell Mr. Jordan that day A. The same vanilla story I had kind of— move off of it, and in 20 minutes we’ll be at that the, uh, President gave you a hatpin well, actually, not even that. I discussed a lunch break and then we can try to resolve and that the hatpin was mentioned in the with Mr. Carter the, uh, that this was ridicu- that. subpoena? lous, that I was angry, I didn’t want to be in- MR. BRYANT: To be clear and fair, let’s A. No. volved with this, I didn’t want to be associ- just—let me postpone the rest of this— Q. Did you discuss the hatpin with Mr. Jor- ated with Paula Jones, with this case. SENATOR DEWINE: That will be fine. dan? Q. Did you, uh— MR. BRYANT: —exam, and we’ll move A. On the 22nd? A. I asked if I could sue Paula Jones. over to December 28th, and we’ll come back Q. Yes. [Laughing.] if it’s appropriate. A. No. Q. Did you discuss an affidavit? SENATOR DEWINE: That will be fine. Q. Any other time? A. Yes, I believe I mentioned an affidavit. THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. I’m not trying A. Yes. Q. Did you mention, uh, the, uh—well, was to be difficult. I’m sorry. Q. When was that? there discussion about how you could sign an MR. BRYANT: No. That’s a valid concern; A. On the 19th. affidavit that might be—allow you to skirt it really is. Q. Okay, and what was—I think I may have being called as a witness? Let’s talk a minute—I just don’t want to missed that, going through that. Tell me A. Mr. Carter said that was a possibility forget to do this; unless I make notes, I for- about it. but that there were other things that we get. A. Actually, I think we—we went through should try first; that he, uh, thought—well, SENATOR LEAHY: You’ve got enough peo- it. actually, can I ask my attorneys a question ple here making notes; I don’t think it’ll Q. You just maybe mentioned it. for a moment? be—I don’t think it’ll be forgotten. A. I mentioned it when I first mentioned to MR. BRYANT: Uh, sure. BY MR. BRYANT: him the subpoena that the hatpin had con- [Witness conferring with counsel.] Q. We’re going to move in the direction of cerned me. SENATOR DEWINE: Counsel, Ms. the December 28th, 1997 meeting, and I’m Q. What was the significance of that hatpin Lewinsky’s mike is carrying; it’s picking up, going to ask you at some point did you meet to you? That seems to stand out. Was that— so we don’t want to— with the President later in December. was that a— THE WITNESS: Sorry. I was only saying A. Yes. A. Right. I think, as I mentioned before, it nice things about you all. Q. Okay, and what date was that? was an alarm to me because it was a specific SENATOR DEWINE: Thank you. A. December 28th, 1997. item— [Laughter.] Q. Thank you. How did the meeting come Q. Right. MR. CACHERIS: So that you’ll know what about? A. —in this list of generalities—I don’t we’re discussing here, as you know, Ms. A. Uh, I contacted Mrs. Currie after Christ- know generalities, but of general things— Lewinsky is not required to give up her law- mas and asked her to find out if the Presi- you sort of go—hatpin? yer-client privileges, and the question we dent still wanted to give me his Christmas Q. Right. I recall that, but I—I think my don’t know the answer to and would like to present, or my Christmas present. question was, was it of any special signifi- address after lunch is whether in fact Mr. Q. Did Ms. Currie get back to you? A. Yes, she did. cance to you. Carter has testified to this conversation. Q. And what was her response? A. Sure. Therefore, perhaps— A. To come to the White House at 8:30 a.m. Q. Was it, like, the first gift or something, SENATOR DEWINE: All right. Maybe on the 28th. that it really stood out above the others? counsel at this point could—could you re- Q. And that would have been Sunday? A. Yes. It—it was—it was the first gift he phrase—rephrase the question or ask another A. Yes. gave me. It was a thoughtful gift. It was question, and after lunch, we can come Q. Did you in fact go to the White House on beautiful. back— that date? Q. And was the hatpin in that list, that MR. CACHERIS: Or come back. A. Yes. group of items that you carried to surrender SENATOR DEWINE: Well, I don’t want—I Q. And how did you get in? to Mr. Carter? don’t think he has to move off the general A. I believe the Southwest Gate. A. No. area if he can—I’ll leave that up to counsel. Q. Did Ms. Currie WAVE you in? Q. And the hatpin was not in that list of MR. BRYANT: There may be some mis- A. I think so. items that you showed Mr. Jordan? understanding or— Q. You’ve testified to that previously. A. I—I didn’t show Mr. Jordan a list of SENATOR DEWINE: Why don’t you re- A. Okay, then I accept that. items. phrase the question, and we’ll see where we Q. This, uh, meeting on the 28th was a Sun- Q. No—I thought you said you showed him are. day, and Ms. Currie—again, according to the items. MR. BRYANT: —on this issue of—well, on your prior testimony—WAVE’d you in. This A. Correct. this issue of the attorney-client privilege. It was all consistent with what the President Q. And the hatpin was not in that group— is our understanding that she is able to tes- had told you to do about, number one, com- I may have ‘‘list’’— tify. But again, I don’t know, uh, if we’re ing on weekends; is that correct? A. Oh. going to resolve that right now. A. I—I—I don’t think me coming in on that Q. —but the hatpin was not in that group SENATOR DEWINE: Why don’t we try to Sunday had—I mean, for me, my memory of of items— resolve that issue over lunch, and— it was that it was a holiday time, so it could A. No, it was not. MR. BRYANT: Because I do have other have been any day. It’s pretty quiet around Q. —that you showed Mr. Jordan. Okay. questions that would relate to this area. the White House from Christmas to New Tell us, if you would, how you arrived at SENATOR DEWINE: —you can stay in this Year’s. Mr. Carter’s. I know you rode in a car, but general area. Q. And it would have been consistent with Mr. Jordan was with you— MR. BRYANT: Well, I’m not sure I can her WAVEing you in when she was there at A. Yes. stay in this area too far without other ques- work on Sunday? Q. —you went in—and tell us what hap- tions that might arguably be involved in A. Yes. pened. that privilege. I can ask them, and you can Q. That was unusual, though, for her to be A. Uh, in the car, we spoke about job object if you think they’re within that in on Sunday, wasn’t it? things. I know he mentioned something range. A. I—I—I—I think so, but I mean, that’s about, I think, getting in touch with Howard MR. CACHERIS: Well, as I said, it’s our un- her—I think that’s something you’d have to Pastor, and I mentioned to Mr. Jordan that derstanding that under her agreement with ask her. Mr. Bacon knew Mr. Pastor and had already the Independent Counsel, she has not been MR. BRYANT: I’m concerned about the gotten in touch with him, and so he should— required to waive her lawyer-client privilege, time. I’m going to go ahead and continue I just wanted Mr. Jordan to be aware of that. and we don’t want to do so here. That’s that with this, and we’ll just stop wherever we Uh, we talked about—it was really all simple. And, Mr. Bryant, I want to check to have a—whenever you tell us to stop. This about the job stuff because Mr. Jordan—the see if Mr. Carter has testified about this. If will take a little bit longer than another 15 man driving the car—I didn’t want to discuss he has, then we might be objecting— minutes or so; but it’s appropriate, I think, anything with the case. MR. BRYANT: Well, she has already, I for us to continue. Q. But once you arrived, and Mr. Jordan think, waived that privilege through talking SENATOR DEWINE: Well, frankly, it’s up made the introduction— with the FBI and those folks. I mean, we to you. A. Correct. have statements that concern those con- MR. BRYANT: Okay. Q. —between the two of you. And did he ex- versations— SENATOR DEWINE: Do you have a prob- plain to Mr. Carter your situation, or did he SENATOR DEWINE: Well, let’s, instead of lem in breaking it? go beyond just the perfunctory introduction? MR. BRYANT: And the 302’s. MR. BRYANT: No; no, I don’t think so. A. No. SENATOR DEWINE: Counsel, let me just— SENATOR DEWINE: I mean, if you do, we Q. Did he leave? if I could interrupt both of you, to keep mov- can take lunch now. I’ll leave that up to you.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1224 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 MR. BRYANT: Uh, why don’t we take the Q. Did he ask you questions about if you essarily mean that those were direct quotes. lunch now— were ever alone with the President? That was the gist of what I remembered him SENATOR DEWINE: All right. No one has A. Yes, he did. saying. So, concern, bothered, it doesn’t— any objection to that, we will do that. Q. And did you deny that? Q. Was—was there a discussion at that THE WITNESS: I never object to food. A. I think I mentioned that I might have point as to how someone might have—may SENATOR DEWINE: Let me just announce brought the President papers on occasion, have discovered the—the hatpin and why? to counsel you have used 2 hours and 14 min- may have had an occasion to be alone with A. Well, he asked me if I had told anybody utes. It is now 20 minutes until 1. We’ll come him, but not—not anything I considered sig- about it, and I said no. back here at 20 minutes until 2. And we need nificant. Q. But the two of you reached no conclu- during this break also to see counsel and try Q. But that was not true either, was it? sion as to how that hatpin came— to resolve the other issue prior to going back A. No. A. No. in. This is the privilege issue. Q. And in fact, that—the fact that you Q. —to appear on the motion? SENATOR LEAHY: Did counsel for Ms. brought him papers, that was part of the A. No. Lewinsky have to make a couple phone calls cover-up story? Q. Did he appear at all, I think, probably first, before we have that discussion? I A. Correct. surprised that—that you had received a re- think— Q. I’m unclear on a point I want to ask quest for production of documents or the— SENATOR DEWINE: My suggestion would you. Also, did Mr. Carter ask you about how the hatpin was on that document? be we do that at the last 15 minutes of the you perhaps were pulled into this case, and A. I didn’t discuss—we didn’t discuss docu- break. you gave some answer about knowing Betty ments, request for documents, but with re- SENATOR LEAHY: I think he said he Currie and—and Mr. Kaye? Does that ring gard to the hatpin, um, I don’t remember wanted to call Mr. Carter; that’s why— bells? You gave that testimony in your depo- him being surprised. MR. CACHERIS: Meet you back up here? sition. Q. Mm-hmm. How long did the discussion SENATOR DEWINE: Yes. I would also—the A. That that’s how I got pulled into the last about the—this request for production sergeant-at-arms has asked me to announce case? of—of the items? that the food is on this floor, and since we Q. Right. Did— A. The topic of the Paula Jones case, have a very limited period of time, we sug- A. May I see that, please? maybe 5 minutes. Not very much. gest you try to stay on the floor. Q. It’s about your denying the relationship Q. What else was said about that? MS. HOFFMANN: We were planning to go with the President, and you think maybe A. About the case? back— you got pulled into the case. It’s—certainly, Q. Yes. SENATOR DEWINE: Except—I understand. it’s—it’s in your grand jury—okay. It’s—it’s A. There was—then, at some point in this I know that you’re— in the August 1 interview, page 9. This was a discussion—I think it was after the hatpin MR. CACHERIS: We have our own arrange- 302 exam from the FBI. stuff—I had said to him that I was concerned ments. A. Um— about the gifts and maybe I should put them SENATOR DEWINE: I know that you have MR. BRYANT: Let me give that to her. Let away or possibly give them to Betty, and as your room, and you’ve made your own ar- me just give it to her to refresh her memory. I’ve testified numerously, his response was rangements, and that’s fine. I’m not going to put it in evidence, although either ranging from no response to ‘‘I don’t So we will start back in one hour. it’s—it should be there. know’’ or ‘‘let me think about it.’’ THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off [Handing document.] Q. Did the conversation about the—the the record at 12:39 p.m. [Witness perusing document.] gifts that you just mentioned, did that im- [Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., the deposition THE WITNESS: I don’t think that’s an ac- mediately follow and tie into, if you will, the was recessed, to reconvene at 1:39 p.m. this curate representation of what I might have conversation about the request for produc- same day.] said in this interview. tion of items, the hatpin and so forth? Did BY MR. BRYANT: one lead to the other? AFTERNOON SESSION Q. Okay. Would you—how would you have A. I don’t remember. I know the gift con- THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back related Walter Kaye in that interview? How versation was subsequent to the hatpin com- on the record at 13:43 hours. would his name have come up? ment, but I—I don’t remember if one led to SENATOR DEWINE: We are now back on A. In this interview or with Mr. Carter? the other. the record. Q. Well, in the interview with Mr. Carter Q. What else happened after that? As we broke for lunch, there was an objec- that I assume was sort of summarized in A. Hmm, I think we went back to sort of— tion that had been made by Ms. Lewinsky’s that— we left that topic, kind of went back to the counsel. Let me call on them at this point A. Right. visit. for statements. Q. —302, but, yes, with Mr. Carter. Q. Did—which included exchanging the MR. CACHERIS: Yes. We have examined A. Uh, I think I mentioned that I was Christmas gifts? the record during the course of the break, friendly with Betty Currie, the President’s A. Correct. and while we know that the immunity agree- secretary. Q. Okay. ment does provide for Ms. Lewinsky to main- Q. And how would Mr. Kaye’s name have A. I had already—he had already given me tain her lawyer-client privilege, we think in come up in the conversation? my presents at this point. this instance, the matter has been testified A. Because of how I met Ms. Currie was Q. Okay. Did—he gave you some gifts that so fully that it has been waived. So the ob- through—that’s how I came to know of Ms. day, and my question to you is what went jection that we lodged is withdrawn. Currie and—and first introduced myself to through your mind when he did that, when SENATOR DEWINE: Thank you very her. Excuse me. you knew all along that you had just re- much. Q. Let’s go back now and resume where we ceived a subpoena to produce gifts. Did that Mr. Bryant, you may proceed. were before the lunch break. We were talking not concern you? MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Mr. Senator. about the December visit to the White House A. No, it didn’t. I was happy to get them. BY MR. BRYANT: and the conversation with the President. Q. All right. Why did it—beyond your hap- Q. We’ve got you to the point where Mr. You had discussed—well, I think we’re to the piness in receiving them, why did the sub- Jordan has escorted you to Mr. Carter’s of- point where perhaps you—or I’ll ask you to poena aspect of it not concern you? fice and has departed, and you and Mr. Car- bring up your discussion with the President A. I think at that moment—I mean, you ter have conversations. about the subpoena and the request for pro- asked me when he gave me those gifts. So, at Generally, what did you discuss with Mr. duction. that moment, when I was there, I was happy Carter? A. Um, part way into my meeting with the to be with him. I was happy to get these A. I guess the—the reasons why I didn’t President, I brought up the concern I had as Christmas presents. So I was nervous about think I should be called in this matter. to how I would have been put—how I might the case, but I had made a decision that I Q. Did he ask you questions? have been alerted or—not alerted, but how I wasn’t going to get into it too much— A. Yes. was put on the witness list and how I might Q. Well— Q. What type of questions did he ask you? have been alerted to the Paula Jones’ attor- A. —with a discussion. A. Um, they ranged from where I lived and neys, and that that was—I was sort of con- Q. —have you in regards to that—you’ve where I was working to did I have a relation- cerned about that. So I discussed that a lit- testified in the past that from everything ship with the President, did—everything in tle, and then I said, um, that I was concerned that the President had told you about things between. about the hatpin. And to the best of my like this, there was never any question that Q. When he—when he asked you about the memory, he said that that had concerned you were going to keep everything quiet, and relationship, did you understand he meant a him as well, and— turning over all the gifts would prompt the sexual-type relationship? Q. Could he have said that bothered him? Jones attorneys to question you. So you had A. He asked me questions that—that indi- A. He—he could have. I—I mean, I don’t— no doubt in your mind, did you not, that you cated he was being specific. I know that sometimes in the—in my grand weren’t going to turn these gifts over that he Q. And did—did you deny such a relation- jury testimony, they’ve put quotations had just given you? ship? around things when I’m attributing state- A. Uh, I—I think the latter half of your A. Yes, I did. ments to other people, and I didn’t nec- statement is correct. I don’t know if you’re

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1225 reading from my direct testimony, but—be- is not a direct quote, but the gist of the con- Q. What happened when she arrived? cause you said—your first statement was versation was that she was going to go visit A. Uh, I think I walked out to the car and from everything the President had told you. her mom in the hospital and she’d stop by asked her to hold onto this, and I think we So I don’t know if that was—if those were and get whatever it was. talked about her mom for a few minutes. my words or not, but I—no, I was—I—it—I Q. Did you question Ms. Currie or ask her, Um— was concerned about the gifts. I was worried what are you talking about or what do you Q. Did she call you right before she ar- someone might break into my house or con- mean? rived, or did you just go wait for her in the cerned that they actually existed, but I A. No. building? wasn’t concerned about turning them over Q. Why didn’t you? A. I think she called me right before she— because I knew I wasn’t going to, for the rea- A. Because I assumed that it meant the at some point, I think, before she—either son that you stated. gifts. when she was leaving or she was outside. Q. But the pattern that you had had with Q. Did—did you have other telephone calls Q. Do you know—did you have any indica- the President to conceal this relationship, it with her that day? tion from Ms. Currie what she was going to was never a question that, for instance, that A. Yes. do with that box of gifts? given day that he gave you gifts that you Q. Okay. What was the purpose of those A. Um, I know I’ve testified to this. I were not going to surrender those to the conversations? don’t—I don’t remember. I think maybe she Jones attorneys because that would— A. I believe I spoke with her a little later said something about putting it in a closet, A. In my mind, there was never a question, to find out when she was coming, and I think but whatever I—I stand by whatever I’ve said no. that I might have spoken with her again in my testimony about it. Q. I’m just actually looking at your deposi- when she was either leaving her house or Q. But she was supposed to keep these for tion on page—no, I’m sorry—your grand jury outside or right there, to let me know to you? proceedings of August the 6th, just to be come out. A. Well, I had asked her to. clear, since you raised that question. Q. Do—at that time, did you have the call- Q. Okay. Did Ms. Currie ask you at any 1004 in the book, appendices. er identification— time about what was in the box? You indicate that in response to a ques- A. Yes, I did. A. No, or not that I recall, I guess I should tion, ‘‘What do you think the President is Q. —on your telephone? say. thinking when he is giving you gifts when A. Yes. Q. What was the—in your mind, what was there is a subpoena covering gifts. I mean, Q. And did you at least on one occasion see the purpose of having Ms. Currie retain these does he think in any way, shape or form that her cell phone number on your caller-ID that gifts as opposed to another friend of yours? you’re going to be turning these gifts over?’’ day? A. Hmm, I know I’ve testified to this, and And your answer is, ‘‘You know, I can’t an- A. Yes, I did. I can’t—can I look at my grand jury—I swer what he was thinking, but, to me, it Q. Now, Ms. Currie has given different mean, I don’t really remember sitting here was—there was never a question in my mind, versions of what happened there, but I recall right now, but if I could look at my grand and I—from everything he said to me, I never one that she mentioned about Michael jury testimony, I—or I’d just stand by it. questioned him that we were ever going to Isikoff, that you had called her and said Mi- Q. We will pass that to you. do anything but keep this private. So that chael Isikoff is calling around or called me— A. Okay. Thank you. meant deny it, and that meant do whatever A. Mm-hmm. [Witness handed documents.] appropriate—take whatever appropriate Q. —about some gifts. BY MR. BRYANT: steps needed to be taken, you know, for that Did Mr. Isikoff ever call you about the Q. The answer I’m looking for is—if this re- to happen, meaning that if—if I had to turn gifts? freshes your recollection is that turning over every gift—if I had turned over every A. No. these over was a reassurance to the Presi- gift he had given me—first of all, the point of Q. Okay. Would there have been—would dent that everything was okay. Is that— the affidavit and the point of everything was there have been any reason for you not to A. Can I read it in context, please? to try to avoid a deposition. So where I’d have carried the gifts to Ms. Currie had you Q. Sure, sure. have to sort of—you know, I wouldn’t have wanted her—had you called her, would you A. Thank you. to lie as much as I would necessarily in an have had her come over to get them from [Witness perusing document.] affidavit how I saw it,’’ and you continue on, you, or does that— THE WITNESS: I—I—I stand by this testi- just one short paragraph. A. Probably not. mony. I mean, I’d just note that it—what I’m A. Right. Q. I mean, is there—is there any doubt in saying here about giving it to the President Q. ‘‘So, by turning over all of these gifts, it your mind that she called you to come pick or the assurance to the President is how I would at best prompt him to want to ques- up the gifts? saw it at that point, not necessarily how I tion me about what kind of friendship I had A. I don’t think there is any doubt in my felt then. So I think you asked me what— with the President, and they would want to mind. why I didn’t at that point, and I’m just— speculate and they’d leak it, and my name Q. Okay. Let me ask was—I think you did that’s what’s a little more clear there, just would be trashed and he would be in trou- something special for her, as I recall, too, or to be precise. I’m sorry. ble.’’ her mother. Did you prepare a plant or some- BY MR. BRYANT: So you recall giving that testimony? thing for her to pick up? Q. Okay. Did you have any later conversa- A. Yes. I accept—I accept what’s said here. A. Um, no. I just— tions with either Ms. Currie or the President Q. Okay. Q. To take to her mother? about these gifts in the box? A. It’s a little different from what you A. I bought a small plant and a balloon. A. No. said, but very close. Q. Okay. What was your understanding Q. Let me direct your attention to your Q. Thank you. about her mother, and was— meeting with Vernon Jordan on December Did the President ever tell you to turn A. Oh, I—I knew her mom was in—was in the 31st of 1997. Was that to go back and talk over the gifts? the hospital and was sick, and I think this about the job again? A. Not that I remember. was her second trip to the hospital in several A. Little bit, but the—the—for me, the Q. Now, is that—does that bring us to the months, and it had been a tough year. point of that meeting was I had gotten to a end of this conversation with the President, Q. And was she—was Mrs. Currie coming by point where Linda Tripp wasn’t returning or did other things occur? your place on her way to visit her mother in my phone calls, and so I felt that I needed to A. I think that the aspect of where this the hospital? Do you know that? devise some way, that somehow—to kind of case is related, yes. A. That’s what I remember her saying. cushion the shock of what would happen if Q. Okay. And then you left, and where did Q. So you prepared—and you bought a gift Linda Tripp testified all the facts about my you go when you left the White House? for her mother? relationship, since I had never disclosed that A. I think I went home. A. Correct. to the President. So that was sort of my in- Q. This is at—at your apartment? Q. Okay. Do you know what kind of time tention in meeting with Mr. Jordan, was A. My mother’s apartment. frame this covered? First of all, it was the hoping that I could give a little information Q. Mother’s apartment. same day, December the 28th, 1997? and that would get passed on. Did you later that day receive a call from A. Seven, yes. Q. This was at a meeting for breakfast at Betty Currie? Q. Do you know what kind of time frame it the Park Hyatt Hotel? A. Yes, I did. covered? A. Yes. Q. Tell us about that. A. I think it was afternoon. I know I’ve Q. Were just the two of you present? A. I received a call from—from Betty, and testified to around 2 o’clock. A. Yes. to the best of my memory, she said some- Q. Could it have been later? Q. Did you discuss other things, other than thing like I understand you have something A. Sure. Linda Tripp and your job search? for me or I know—I know I’ve testified to Q. So, when Betty Currie came, what— A. I think we talked about what each of us saying that—that I remember her saying ei- what did you have prepared for her? were doing New Year’s Eve. ther I know you have something for me or A. I had a box from the Gap with some of Q. Specifically about some notes that you the President said you have something for the presents the President had given me, had at your apartment? me. And to me, it’s a—she said—I mean, this taped up in it. A. Oh, yes. I’m sorry.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1226 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Um, well, I mean, that really was in rela- A. No. A. No. tion to discussing Linda Tripp. So— Q. Did you try to contact the President Q. And this is the time when he said some- Q. And the Jones lawyers, too. Was that after you left the meeting with Mr. Carter? thing about 15 other affidavits? right? A. Yes. A. Correct. A. Um, I—I don’t know that I discussed the Q. And you reached Betty Currie? Q. And tell us as best as you can recall Jones lawyers. If I’ve testified that I dis- A. Yes. what—how that—how that part of the con- cussed the Jones lawyers, then I did, but— Q. And you told her to pass along to the versation went. Q. Okay. Well, tell us about the notes. President that you wanted—it was impor- A. I think that was the—sort of the other A. Well, the—sort of the—I don’t know tant to talk with him? half of his sentence as, No, you know, I don’t what to call it, but the story that I gave to A. Yes. want to see it. I don’t need to—or, I’ve seen Mr. Jordan was that I was trying to sort of Q. You may have mentioned to her some- 15 others. alert to him that, gee, maybe Linda Tripp thing about signing something? It was a little flippant. might be saying these things about me hav- A. Right; I might have. Q. In his answer to this proceeding in the ing a relationship with the President, and Q. What response did you get from that Senate, he has indicated that he thought he right now, I’m explaining this to you. These telephone call? had—might have had a way that he could aren’t the words that I used or how I said it A. Uh, Betty called me back, maybe an have you—get you to file a—basically a true to him, and that, you know, maybe she had hour or two later, and put the President affidavit, but yet still skirt these issues seen drafts of notes, trying to obviously give through. enough that you wouldn’t be called as a wit- an excuse as to how Linda Tripp could pos- Q. And what was that conversation? ness. sibly know about my relationship with the A. I know I’ve testified to this, and it was Did he offer you any of these suggestions President without me having been the one to sort of two-fold. On the one hand, I was, uh, at this time? have told her. So that’s what I said to him. upset, so I was sort of in a pissy mood and a A. He didn’t discuss the content of my affi- Q. And what was his response? little bit contentious. Uh, but more related davit with me at all, ever. A. I think it was something like go home to the case, uh, I had concerns that from Q. But, I mean, he didn’t make an offer and make sure—oh, something about a—I questions Mr. Carter had asked me about that, you know, here’s what you can do, or think he asked me if they were notes from how I got my job at the Pentagon and trans- let me send you over something that can the President to me, and I said no. I know ferred and, and, uh, I was concerned as to maybe keep you from committing perjury? I’ve testified to this. I stand by that testi- how to answer those questions because those A. No. We never discussed perjury. mony, and I’m just recalling it, that I said questions involved naming other people who Q. On—well, how did that conversation no, they were draft notes or notes that I sent I thought didn’t like me at the White House, end? Did you talk about anything else? to the President, and then I believe he said and I was worried that those people might A. I said goodbye very abruptly. something like, well, go home and make sure try and—just to get me in trouble because Q. The next day—well, on January the they’re not there. they didn’t like me—so that if they were 6th—I’m not sure exactly what day we are— Q. And what did you do when you went then—I mean, I had no concept of what ex- 1998, did you pick up a draft of the affidavit home? actly happens in these legal proceedings, and from Mr. Carter? A. I went home and I searched through I thought, well, maybe if I say Joe Schmo A. Yes, I did. some of my papers, and—and the drafts of helped me get my job, then they’d go inter- Q. What did you do with that draft? A. I read it and went through it. notes I found, I sort of—I got rid of some of view Joe Schmo, and so, if Joe Schmo said, Q. How did it look? the notes that day. ‘‘No, that’s not true,’’ because he didn’t like A. I don’t really remember my reaction to Q. So you threw them away? me, then I didn’t want to get in trouble. So— it. I know I had some changes. I know there’s A. Mm-hmm. Q. Did there appear to be a question pos- a copy of this draft affidavit that’s part of THE REPORTER: Is that a ‘‘yes’’? sibly about how you—how you got the job at THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry. the Pentagon? Did you fear for some ques- the record, but— Q. Were portions of it false? BY MR. BRYANT: tions there? A. Incomplete and misleading. Q. On your way home, you were with Mr. A. Yes. I think I tend to be sort of a detail- Q. Did you take that affidavit to Mr. Jor- Jordan? I mean, he carried—did he carry you oriented person, and so I think it was, uh, dan? someplace or take you home, drop you off? my focusing on the details and thinking ev- A. I dropped off a copy in his office. A. Yes, he dropped me off. erything had to be a very detailed answer Q. Did you have any conversation with him Q. Okay. On the way home— and not being able to kind of step back and at that point or some later point about that A. It wasn’t on the way to my home, but— look at how I could say it more generally. So affidavit? Q. Okay. Did he—did you tell him that you that’s what concerned me. A. Yes, I did. had had an affair with the President? Q. Mm-hmm. This— Q. And tell us about that. A. Yes. A. Because clearly, I mean, I would have A. I had gone through and had, I think, as Q. What was his response? had to say, ‘‘Gee, I was transferred from the it’s marked—can I maybe see? Isn’t there a A. No response. Pentagon because I had this relationship copy of the draft? Q. When was the next time—well, let me that I’m not telling you about with the [Witness handed document.] direct your attention to Monday, January President.’’ So there was—there was that [Witness perusing document.] the 5th, 1998. You had an occasion to meet concern for me there. The WITNESS: Thank you. with your lawyer, Mr. Carter, about your Q. And what did the President tell you that SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, can you case, possible depositions, and so forth. you could say instead of saying something reference for the record at this point? Did you have some concern at that point like that? MR. BRYANT: Okay. about those depositions and how you might A. That the people in Legislative Affairs SENATOR DeWINE: If you can. answer questions in the Paula Jones case? helped me get the job—and that was true. MR. BRYANT: It would be— A. Yes. Q. Okay, but it was also true, to be com- MR. SCHIPPERS: 1229. Q. Did you reach any sort of determination plete, that they moved you out into the Pen- SENATOR DeWINE: 1229? or resolution of those concerns by talking to tagon because of the relationship with the MR. SCHIPPERS: Yes. Mr. Carter? President? SENATOR DeWINE: All right. Thank you. A. No. A. Right. BY MR. BRYANT: Q. What’s the status of the affidavit at this Q. Did—did the subject of the affidavit Q. Okay. Have you had an opportunity to point? Is there one? come up with the President? review the draft of your affidavit? A. No. A. Yes, towards the end of the conversa- A. I—yes. Q. Do you recall any other concerns or tion. Q. Okay. What—do you have any comment questions that either you or Mr. Carter may Q. And how did—tell us how that occurred. or response? have presented to each other during that A. I believe I asked him if he wanted to see A. I received it. I made the suggested meeting? a copy of it, and he said no. changes, and I believe I spoke with Mr. Jor- A. I think I—I think it was in that meeting Q. Well, I mean, how did you introduce dan about the changes I wanted to make. I brought up the notion of having my family that into the subject—into the conversation? Q. Did he have any comment on your pro- present, if I had to do a deposition, and he A. I don’t really remember. posed changes? went through what—I believe we discussed— Q. Did he ask you, well, how’s the affidavit A. I think he said the part about Lewis & at this point, I think I probably knew at this coming or— Clark College was irrelevant. I’d have to see point I was going to sign an affidavit, but it A. No, I don’t think so. the—I don’t believe it’s in the final copy in wasn’t created yet, and I believe we dis- Q. But you told him that you had one being the affidavit, so—but I could be mistaken. cussed what—if the affidavit wasn’t, I guess, prepared, or something? Q. At this point, of course, you had a law- successful—I don’t know how you’d say le- A. I think I said—I think I said, you know, yer, Mr. Carter, who was representing your gally—say that legally—but what a deposi- I’m going to sign an affidavit, or something interest. Mr. Jordan was—I’m not sure if tion would be like, sitting at a table. like that. he—how you would characterize him, but Q. I’ll bet he never told you it would be Q. Did he ask you what are you going to would it—would it be that you view Mr. Jor- like this, did he? say? dan as, in many ways, Mr.—the President—if

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1227 Mr. Jordan knew it, the President knew it, Q. Did you give it to anyone or give anyone Q. I think we may be talking about per- or something of that nature? else a copy? haps an informal offer. Does that—on the A. I think I testified to something similar A. No. 9th? to that. I felt that, I guess, that Mr. Jordan Q. Now, did you, the next day on the 8th, A. Yes. I know it was—okay. Was it on might have had the President’s best interest go to New York for some interviews for jobs? the—I don’t— at heart and my best interest at heart, so A. It was—it—I either went later on the Q. Yes. that that was sort of maybe a—some sort of 7th or on the 8th, but around that time, yes. A. —remember if it was the 9th or the a blessing. Q. Was this a place that you had already 13th— Q. I think, to some extent, what you—what interviewed? A. Okay. you had said was getting Mr. Jordan’s ap- A. Yes. Q. —but I know Ms. Sideman called me to proval was basically the same thing as get- Q. And I assume this was at McAndrews extend an informal offer, and I accepted. ting the President’s approval. Would you and Forbes? Q. Okay. Now, in regard to the affidavit— agree with that? A. Yes. do you still have your draft in front of you? A. Yeah. I believe that—yes, I believe Q. How did you feel that the interview A. Yes, sir. that’s how I testified to it. went? Q. In paragraph number 3, you say: ‘‘I can Q. The fact that you assume that Mr. Jor- A. I—I know I characterized it in my grand not fathom any reason—fathom any reason dan was in contact with the President—and I jury testimony as having not gone very well. why—that the plaintiff would seek informa- believe the evidence would support that Q. Okay. I think you also mentioned it tion from me for her case.’’ through his own testimony that he had went very poorly, too. Does that sound—does A. Yes, sir. talked to the President about the signed affi- that ring a bell? Q. Did Mr. Carter at all go into the gist of davit and that he had kept the President up- A. Sure. the Paula Jones lawsuit, the sexual harass- dated on the subpoena issue and the job Q. Why? Why would you so characterize it? ment part of it, and tell you what it was search— A. Well, as I’ve had a lot of people tell me, about? A. Sir, I’m not sure that I knew he was I’m a pessimist, but also I—I wasn’t pre- A. I think I knew what it was about. having contact with the President about pared. I was in a waiting room downstairs at Q. All right. And then you indicated that this. I—I think what I said was that I felt McAndrews and Forbes, and—or at least, I you didn’t like the part about the doors, that it was getting his approval. It didn’t thought it was a waiting room—and Mr. being behind closed doors, but on the sexual necessarily mean that I felt he was going to Durnan walked into the room unannounced, relationship, paragraph 8, the first sentence, get a direct approval from the President. and the interview began. So I felt that I ‘‘I’ve never had a sexual relationship with I’m sorry to interrupt you. started on the wrong foot, and I just didn’t the President’’— Q. Oh, that’s fine. At any time you need to feel that I was as articulate as I could have A. Mm-hmm. clarify a point, please—please feel free to do been. Q. —that’s not true, is it? so. Q. Did you call Mr. Jordan after that? A. No. I haven’t had intercourse with the Did—did—did you have any indication A. Yes, I did. President, but— from Mr. Jordan that he—when he discussed Q. Did you express those same concerns? Q. Was that the distinction you made when the signed affidavit with the President, they A. Yes, I did. you signed that affidavit, in your own mind? were discussing some of the contents of the Q. What did he say? A. That was the justification I made to affidavit? Did you have— A. And this is a little fuzzy for me. I know myself, yes. A. Before I signed it or— that I had a few phone calls with him in that Q. Let me send you the final affidavit. It Q. No; during the drafting stage. day. I think in this call, he said, you know, might be a little easier to work from— A. No, absolutely not—either/or. I didn’t. ‘‘Don’t worry about it.’’ I—my testimony is A. Okay. No, I did not. probably more complete on this. I’m sorry. Q. —than the—than the original. Q. Now, the changes that you had pro- Q. What—what other phone calls did you MR. BRYANT: Do we have all the—1235. posed, did Mr. Jordan agree to those have with him that day? [Witness handed document.] changes? A. I remember talking to—I know that at SENATOR DeWINE: Congressman? A. I believe so. some point, he said something about that MR. BRYANT: Yes. Q. And then you somehow reported those he’d call the chairman, and then I think he SENATOR DeWINE: We’re down to 3 min- changes back to Mr. Carter or to someone said just at some point not to worry. He was utes on the tape. Would now be a good time else? always telling me not to worry because I al- to have him switch tapes and then we’ll go A. No. I believe I spoke with Mr. Carter the ways—I overreact a little bit. right back in? next morning, before I went in to see him, Q. All total, how many calls did you have MR. BRYANT: Okay, that would be fine. and that’s when I—I believe that’s—I dic- with him that day—your best guess? SENATOR DeWINE: I think we’ll hold tated the changes. A. I have no idea. right at the table, and we’ll get the tapes Q. Okay. Mr. Jordan did not relay the Q. More than two? switched. changes to Mr. Carter—you did? A. I—I don’t know. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay, we will do A. I know I relayed the changes, these Q. Can you think of any other subjects the that now. changes to Mr. Carter. two of you would have talked about? This marks the end of Videotape Number 2 Q. Specifically, the concerns that you had A. I don’t think so. in the deposition of Monica S. Lewinsky. about—about the draft, what did they in- Q. Did he, Mr. Jordan, tell you that he had We are going off the record at 14:31 hours. clude, the changes? talked to the chairman, or Mr. Perelman, [Recess.] A. I think one of the—I think what con- whatever his title is? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the be- cerned me—and I believe I’ve testified to A. I’m sorry. I know I’ve testified to this. ginning of Videotape Number 3 in the deposi- this—was—was in Number 6. Even just men- I don’t—I think so. tion of Monica S. Lewinsky. The time is 14:44 tioning that I might have been alone with Q. And you had—did you have additional hours. the President, I was concerned that that interviews at this company or a subsidiary? SENATOR DeWINE: We are back on the would give the Jones people enough ammuni- A. Yes, I—well, I had with the sort of, I record. tion to want to talk to me, to think, oh, guess, daughter—daughter company, Revlon. Let me advise counsel that you have used well, maybe if she was alone with him that— I had an interview with Revlon the next day. 3 hours and 2 minutes. that he propositioned me or something like Q. And you were offered a job? Congressman Bryant, you may continue. that, because I hadn’t—of course, I mean, A. Yes, I was. MR. BRYANT: Thank you, sir. you remember that at this point, I had no Q. About the 9th or so? That would have BY MR. BRYANT: idea the amount of knowledge they had been 2 days after the affidavit? Q. Ms. Lewinsky, let me just follow up on about the relationship. So— A. Oh. Actually, no. I think I was offered a some points here, and then I’ll move toward Q. Did—Mr. Carter, I assume, made those position, whatever that Friday was. Oh, yes, the conclusion of my direct examination changes, and then you subsequently signed the 9th. I’m sorry. You’re right. very, very quickly, I hope. the affidavit? Oh, wait. It was either the 9th or the 13th— In regard to the affidavit—I think you still A. We worked on it in his office, and then, or the 12th—the 9th or the 12th. have it in front of you—the final copy of the yes, I signed the affidavit. Q. Okay. Now, I’m—I was looking away. affidavit—I wanted to revisit your answer Q. Is this the same day— I’m confused. about paragraph 8— A. Yes. A. That’s okay. I—my interview was on the A. Yes, sir. Q. —at this point? 9th, and I don’t remember right now—I know Q. —and also refer you to your grand jury A. This was the 7th? I’ve testified to this—whether I found out testimony of August the 6th. This begins Q. Yes. that afternoon or it was on Monday that I on—actually, it is on page 1013 of the—it A. Correct. got the informal offer. should be the Senate record, in the appen- Q. Did—did you take the signed—or a copy Q. Mm-hmm. dices, but it’s your August 6th, 1998, grand of the signed affidavit, I should say—did you A. So, if you want to tell me what I said in jury testimony. take a copy—did you keep a copy? my grand jury testimony, I’ll be happy to af- And it’s similar to the—my question about A. Yes, I did. firm that. paragraph 8 about the sexual relationship—

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1228 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 and I notice you—you now carve out an ex- was, ‘‘Well, you have to turn over whatever Q. Okay. Not initially. ception to that by saying you didn’t have you have.’’ And I said to you, ‘‘You know, A. I— intercourse, but I would direct your atten- that sounds a little bit familiar to me.’’ Q. Did he ever—did he ever touch you? tion to a previous answer and ask if you can So that’s what I can tell you on that. A. Yes. recall being asked this question in your Q. That’s in the 302 exam? Q. Okay. Could Betty Currie see and hear grand jury testimony and ask—giving the A. I don’t know if it’s in the 302 or not, but everything that went on between the two of answer—the question is: ‘‘All right. Let me that’s what happened. you all the time? ask you a straightforward question. Para- Q. Uh-huh. A. I can’t answer that. I’m sorry. graph 8, at the start, says, quote, ’I have A. Or, that’s how I remember what hap- Q. As far as you know, could she see and never had a sexual relationship with the pened. hear everything that went on between the President,’ unquote. Is that true?,’’ and your Q. Okay. And your response to the question two of you? answer is, ‘‘No.’’ in the deposition that I just asked you—were A. Well, if I was in the room, I couldn’t— Now, do you have any comment about why you ever under the impression from anything I—I couldn’t be in the room and being able to your answer still would not be no, that that the President said that you should have— see if Betty Currie could see and hear what is not a true statement in paragraph 8? that you should turn over all the gifts to the was— A. I think I was asked a different question. Jones lawyers—your answer in that deposi- Q. I think I— Q. Okay. tion was no. MR. STEIN: Wouldn’t it be a little speed- A. My recollection, sir, was that you asked A. And which date was that, please? ier—if I may make this observation, you me if that was a lie, if paragraph 8 was—I— Q. The deposition was August the 26th. have her testimony; you have the evidence I’m not trying to— A. Oh, the 26th. of— Q. Okay. Well, if—if I ask you today the Q. Yes. SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, is this an ob- same question that was asked in your grand A. It might have been after that, or maybe jection? jury, is your statement, quote, ‘‘I have never it was—I don’t— MR. STEIN: I just would ask him to draw had a sexual relationship with the Presi- Q. Okay. I wanted to ask you, too, about a whatever inferences there were to speed this dent,’’ unquote, is that a true statement? couple of other things in terms of your testi- up. A. No. mony. Regarding the affidavit—and this ap- SENATOR DeWINE: I’ll ask him to re- Q. Okay, that’s good. pears to be, again, grand jury testimony— phrase the question. Now, also in paragraph 8, you mention that A. Sir, do you have a copy that I could MR. BRYANT: I would just stop at that there were occasions after you left—I think look at if you’re going to— point. I think, uh, that’s enough of that. it looks like the—the last sentence in para- Q. Sure. August, the August 6th—233—it’s BY MR. BRYANT: graph 8, ‘‘The occasions that I saw the Presi- the—it’s this page here. Q. The President also had conversations dent after I left my employment at the While we’re looking at that, let me ask with Mr. Blumenthal on January the 21st, White House in April 1996 were official recep- you a couple other things here. I wanted to 1998, and indicated that you came on to the tions, formal functions, or events related to ask you—I talked to you a little bit about President and made a sexual demand. At the the United States Department of Defense, the President today and your feelings today initial part of this, did you come on to the where I was working at the time,’’ period— that persist that you think he’s a good Presi- President and make a sexual demand on the actually the last sentence, ‘‘There were dent, and I assume you think he’s a very in- President? other people present on those occasions.’’ telligent man? A. No. Now, that also is not a truthful statement; is A. I think he’s an intelligent President. Q. At the initial meeting on November the that correct? [Laughter.] 15th, 1995, did he ever rebuff you from these A. It—I think I testified that this was mis- MR. BRYANT: Okay. Thank goodness, this advances, or from any kind of— leading. It’s incomplete— is confidential; otherwise, that might be the A. On November 15th? Q. Okay. It’s not a truthful statement? quote of the day. I know we won’t see that in Q. November 15th. Did he rebuff you? A. —and therefore, misleading. the paper, will we? A. No. Well, it—it is true; it’s not complete. BY MR. BRYANT: Q. Did you threaten him on November 15th, Q. Okay. All right. Now, I will accept that. Q. Referring to January the 18th, 1998, the 1995? A. Okay. Thank you. President had a conversation with Betty A. No. Q. Thank you. Currie, and he made five statements to her. Q. On January 23rd, 1998, the President told Going back to the gift retrieval of Decem- One was that ‘‘I was never really alone with John Podesta that—many things. I’ll—I’ll ber the 28th, I want to be clear that we’re on Monica; right?’’ That’s one. That’s not true, withdraw that. Let me go—kind of wind this the same sheet of music on this one. As I un- is it, that ‘‘I was never alone with’’— down. I’d like to save some time for redirect. derstand, there’s no doubt in your mind that A. Sir, I was not present for that conversa- You’ve indicated that with regard to the Betty Currie called you, initiated the call to tion. I don’t feel comfortable— affidavit and telling the truth, there is some you to pick up the gifts? She— Q. Let me ask you, though—I realize none testimony I’d like to read you from your A. That’s how I remember this event. of us were there—but that statement, ‘‘I was deposition that we started out—August the Q. And you went through that process, and never really alone with Monica; right?’’— 6th—I’m sorry—the grand jury, August 6th, at the very end, you were sitting out in the that was not—he was alone with you on 1998— car with her, with a box of gifts, and it was many occasions, was he not? MS. MILLS: What internal page number? only at that time that you asked her to keep A. I—I’m not trying to be difficult, but I MR. SCHIPPERS: 1021 internal, 233. these gifts for you? feel very uncomfortable making judgments MR. BRYANT: Okay, we need to get her a A. I don’t think I said ‘‘gifts.’’ I don’t— on what someone else’s statement when copy. Q. Or keep this package? they’re defining things however they want to MR. SCHIPPERS: Do you have the August A. I think I said—gosh, was it in the car define it. So if you—if you ask me, Monica, 6th still over there? that I said that or on the phone? I think it were you alone with the President, I will say THE WITNESS: I can share with Sydney— was in the car. I—I’m—I don’t know if that yes, but I’m not comfortable characterizing if you don’t mind. makes a difference. what someone else says— [Witness perusing document.] Q. But this was at the end of a process that Q. Okay. BY MR. BRYANT: Betty Currie had initiated by telephone ear- A. —passing judgment on it. I’m sorry. Q. Beginning—do you have page 233— lier that day to come pick up something that Q. Were you—was Betty Currie always with A. Uh-huh. you have for her? you when the President was with you? Q. —okay—beginning at line 6— A. Yes. A. Betty Currie was always at the White A. Okay. Q. Okay. Now, were you ever under the im- House when I went to see the President at Q. —it reads—would you prefer to read pression from anything that the President the White House after I left working at the that? Why don’t you read— said that you should turn over all the gifts White House. A. Out loud? to the Jones lawyers? Q. But was—at all times when you were Q. Would you read it out loud? A. No, but where this is a little tricky— alone with the President, was Betty Currie A. Okay. and I think I might have even mentioned always there with you? Q. Through line 16—6 through 16. This is this last weekend—was that I had an occa- A. Not there in the room. your answer. sion in an interview with one of the—with Q. Okay. Did—did—did you come on to the A. ‘‘Sure. Gosh. I think to me that if—if the OIC—where I was asked a series of state- President, and did he never touch you phys- the President had not said the Betty and let- ments, if the President had made those, and ically? ters cover, let’s just say, if we refer to that, there was one statement that Agent Phalen A. I guess those are two separate ques- which I’m talking about in paragraph 4, page said to me—I—there were—other people, tions, right? 4, I would have known to use that. So to me, they asked me these statements—this is Q. Yes, they are. encouraging or asking me to lie would after the President testified and they asked A. Did I come on to him? Maybe on some have—you know, if the President had said, me some statements, did you say this, did occasions. Now, listen, you’d better not say anything you say this, and I said, no, no, no. And Q. Okay. about this relationship, you’d better not tell Agent Phalen said something, and I think it A. Not initially. them the truth, you’d better not—for me, the

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best way to explain how I feel what happened A. Correct. Page Line Corrections was, you know, no one asked or encouraged Q. And in that same telephone conversa- me to lie, but no one discouraged me, ei- tion, he encouraged you to file an affidavit 24 9 ‘‘second . . .’’ should replace ‘‘2d’’ 44 6 Comments by counsel are not transcribed. ther.’’ in the Jones case? 61 11–13 Delete quotation marks. These are not direct quotes in Q. Okay. That—that statement, is that A. He suggested I could file an affidavit. this instance. consistent in your view with what you’ve Q. Okay. With regard to the job, between 62 23 ‘‘town’’ should replace ‘‘down’’ your meeting with Mr. Jordan in early No- 63 17 ‘‘called’’ should replace ‘‘found’’ testified to today? 63 23 ‘‘after Thanksgiving’’ should follow ‘‘back.’’ A. Yes. vember and December the 5th when you met 63 24 Insert following line 23: Q. Okay. Look at page 234, which is right with Mr. Jordan again, you did not feel that A: Yes I did. Mr. Jordan was doing much to help you get Q: What did he tell you then? below there. 65 21 ‘‘tchotchke’’ should replace ‘‘chochki’’ A. Okay. [Perusing document.] a job; is that correct? 65 24 ‘‘on’’ should replace ‘‘home’’ Q. Beginning with the—your answer on line MS. SELIGMAN: Objection. Misstates the 66 20 The line should read: 4, and read down, if you could, to line 14—4 record. ‘‘see if I could see the President. I apologize,’’ not BY MR. BRYANT: ‘‘see if I could see the President and apologize.’’ through 14. 75 1 ‘‘needed’’ should replace ‘‘need’’ A. ‘‘Yes and no. I mean, I think I also said Q. Okay. You can answer that. 90 5 ‘‘the’’ should replace ‘‘some’’ that Monday that it wasn’t as if the Presi- A. It— 116 16 ‘‘said’’ should precede ‘‘list’’ 128 9 ‘‘that’s’’ should replace ‘‘of’’ dent called me and said, You know, Monica, Q. Let me repeat it. Between your meeting with Mr. Jordan in early November and De- 154 5 Delete quotation marks. you’re on the witness list. This is going to be 156 6 ‘‘Seidman’’ should replace ‘‘Sideman’’ really hard for us. We’re going to have to tell cember the 5th when you met with Mr. Jor- 161 15 ‘‘Fallon’’ should replace ‘‘Phalen’’ the truth and be humiliated in front of the dan again, you did not feel that Mr. Jordan entire world about what we’ve done, which I was doing much to help you get a job; is that Provided these changes are made, we will would have fought him on, probably. That correct? waive signature on behalf of Ms. Lewinsky. MS. SELIGMAN: Same objection. was different. And by him not calling me and We understand from Senate Legal Counsel THE WITNESS: Do you mean when I met that copies of this letter will be made avail- saying that, you know, I knew what that with him again on December 11th? I don’t— meant. So I, I don’t see any disconnect be- able to the parties and Senate. MR. BRYANT: The— Thank you for your assistance. tween paragraph 10 and paragraph 4 on the THE WITNESS: —I didn’t meet with Mr. Sincerely, page. Does that answer your question?’’ Jordan on December 5th. I’m sorry— PLATO CACHERIS. Q. Okay. Now, has that—has your testi- MR. BRYANT: Okay. PRESTON BURTON. mony today been consistent with that provi- THE WITNESS: —am I misunderstanding SYDNEY HOFFMANN. sion? something? A. I—I think so. MR. BRYANT: We’re getting our numbers IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES SIT- Q. Okay. wrong here. TING FOR THE TRIAL OF THE IMPEACHMENT A. I’ve intended for my testimony to be THE WITNESS: Okay. OF WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, PRESIDENT consistent with my grand jury testimony. BY MR. BRYANT: OF THE UNITED STATES Q. Okay. And one final read just below Q. Between your meeting with Mr. Jordan EXCERPTS OF VIDEO DEPOSITION OF VERNON E. that, line 16 through 24. in early November and December the 11th JORDAN, JR. A. ‘‘Did you understand all along that he when you met with Mr. Jordan again, you (Tuesday, February 2, 1999, Washington, would deny the relationship also?’’ did not feel that Mr. Jordan was doing much D.C.) ‘‘Mm-hmm, yes.’’ to help you get a job; is that correct? SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. If there Q. And 19 through 24—the rest of that. A. I hadn’t seen any progress. A. Oh, sorry. Q. Okay. After you met with Mr. Jordan in are no further questions from the parties or ‘‘And when you say you understood what it early December, you began to interview in counsel for the witness, I’ll now swear in the meant when he didn’t say, Oh, you know you New York and were much more active in witness. Mr. Jordan, will you please raise must tell the truth, what did you understand your job search; correct? your right hand? that to mean?’’ A. Yes. Do you, Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., swear that ‘‘That, that, as we had on every other occa- Q. In early January, you received a job the evidence you shall give in this case now sion and in every other instance of this rela- offer from Revlon with the help of Vernon pending between the United States and Wil- tionship, we would deny it.’’ Jordan; is that correct? liam Jefferson Clinton, President of the MR. BRYANT: Okay. A. Yes. United States, shall be the truth, the whole Could we have just—go off the record here Q. Okay. With regard to gifts, regarding truth, and nothing but the truth, so help a minute? the gifts that were subpoenaed in the Jones you, God? SENATOR DeWINE: Sure. Let’s go off the case, you are certain that Ms. Currie called THE WITNESS: I do. record at this point. you and that she understood you had some- Whereupon, VERNON E. JORDAN, JR., THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the thing to give her; is that correct? was called as a witness and, after having record at 1459 hours. A. That’s my recollection. been first duly sworn by Senator Fred [Recess.] Q. You never told Ms. Currie to come pick Thompson, was examined and testified as THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going back up the gifts or that Michael Isikoff had follows: on the record at 1504 hours. called about them; is that correct? SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. The SENATOR DeWINE: Manager Bryant, you A. I don’t recall that. House Managers may begin their questioning may proceed. Q. Regarding stalking, you never stalked of the witness. MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Senator. the President; is that correct? MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senator BY MR. BRYANT: A. I—I don’t believe so. Thompson and Senator Dodd. Q. Ms. Lewinsky, I have just a few more Q. Okay. You and the President had an EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS questions here. emotional relationship as well as a physical BY MR. HUTCHINSON: With regard to the false affidavit, you do one; is that right? Q. Good morning, Mr. Jordan. For the admit that you filed an untruthful affidavit A. That’s how I’d characterize it. record, would you state your name, please? with the court in the Jones case; is that cor- Q. Okay. He never rebuffed you? A. Good morning, Congressman. My name A. I—I think that gets into some of the in- rect? is Vernon E. Jordan, Jr. A. I think I—I—yes—I mean, it was incom- timate details of—no, then, that’s not true. Q. And, Mr. Jordan, we have not had the plete and misleading, and— There were occasions when he did. opportunity to meet previously, is that cor- Q. Uh-huh. Okay. But he never rebuffed Q. Okay. With regard to the cover stories, rect? on December the 6th, you and the President you initially on that first day, November the A. That is correct. went over cover stories, and in the same con- 15th, 1995? Q. And I do appreciate—I have met your versation he encouraged you to file an affi- A. No, sir. counsel, Mr. Hundley, in his office, and so davit in the Jones case; is that correct? I’ve looked forward to this opportunity to A. No. LAW OFFICES OF meet you. Now, you have— MS. SELIGMAN: I think that misstates PLATO CACHERIS, A. I can’t say that the feeling is mutual. the record. Washington, DC, February 2, 1999. [Laughter.] BY MR. BRYANT: Re February 1, 1999, Monica S. Lewinsky BY MR. HUTCHINSON: Q. All right. On December the 17th. Let’s deposition transcript. Q. I certainly understand. try December 17; all right? You have testified, I believe, five times DEAR MS. JARDIM AND MR. BITSKO: Upon A. Okay. previously before the Federal grand jury? our review of the videotape and transcript of Q. You and the President went over cover A. That is correct. Monica S. Lewinsky’s deposition transcript, stories—that’s the telephone conversation— Q. And so I know that probably about A. Okay—I’m sorry—can you repeat the we have noted the following errors or omis- every question that could be asked has been question? sions: asked, but there are a number of reasons I Q. Okay. On December 17th, you and the want to go over additional questions with Page Line Corrections President went over cover stories in a tele- you, and some of them will be repetitious of phone conversation. 19 14 The oath and affirmation are not transcribed. what’s been asked before.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1230 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Prior to coming in today, though, have you Q. And just to further elaborate on that tions with you by the President, perhaps in had the opportunity to review your prior tes- friendship, it’s my understanding that he reference to your grand jury testimony or timony in those five appearances before the and his—and the First Lady has had Christ- your knowledge of when and how you talked grand jury? mas Eve dinner with you and your family for to Ms. Lewinsky. A. I have done some preparation, Congress- a number of years? A. If I understand your question about man. A. Every year since his Presidency, the whether or not the President of the United Q. And let me start with the fact that the Jordan family has been privileged to enter- States and I talked about my testimony be- oath that you took today is the same as the tain the Clinton family on Christmas Eve. fore the grand jury or his testimony before oath that you took before the Federal grand Q. And has there been any exceptions in re- the grand jury, I can say to you unequivo- jury? cent years to that? cally that the President of the United States A. I believe that’s correct. A. Every year that he has been President, and I have not discussed our testimony. I Q. And, Mr. Jordan, what is your profes- he has had, he and his family, Christmas Eve was advised by my counsel, Mr. Hundley, not sion? with my family. to discuss that testimony, and I have learned A. I am a lawyer. Q. And have you vacationed together with in this process, Mr. Hutchinson, to—to take Q. And where do you practice your profes- the Clinton family? the advice of counsel. sion? A. Yes. I think you have seen reels of us Q. I would certainly agree that that is good A. I am a senior partner at the law firm of playing golf and having fun at Martha’s counsel to take, but going back to the ques- Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld, here in Vineyard. tion—and I will try to rephrase it because it Washington, D.C., with offices in Texas, Cali- Q. And so you vacation together, you play was a very wordy question that I asked you— fornia, Pennsylvania and New York, three of- golf together on a semi-regular basis? and it’s clear from your testimony that you fices in Europe, London, Brussels and Mos- A. Whenever we can. We’ve not been doing have not discussed your grand jury testi- cow. it recently, for reasons that I think are prob- mony— Q. And how long have you been a senior ably very obvious to you, Counsel. A. That is correct. partner? Q. Well, explain that to me. Q. —but did you, subsequent to your last A. I have been a senior partner—well, I A. Just what I said, for a time, I was going testimony before the grand jury, talk to the didn’t start out as a senior partner. I started before the grand jury, and under the advice President in which you discussed conversa- out as a partner, and at some point—I don’t of counsel and I’m sure under advice of the tion that you have had with Monica know when, but not long thereafter I was President’s counsel, it was thought best that Lewinsky? elevated to this position of senior partner. we not play golf together. A. I have not discussed a conversation that Q. And what type of law do you practice? So, from the time that I first went to the I have had with Monica Lewinsky with the A. I am a corporate international gener- grand jury, I don’t think—we have not President of the United States. alist at Akin, Gump. played golf this year, unfortunately, to- Q. And have you had any discussions about Q. And does Akin, Gump have about 800 gether. Monica Lewinsky with the President of the lawyers? Q. Since you—I think your first appear- United States since your last testimony be- A. We have about 800 lawyers, yes. ance at the grand jury was March 3 of ’98. fore the grand jury? Q. Which is an incredible number for law- Then you went March 5, and then in May, I A. I have not. yers from someone who practiced law in Ar- believe you were two times before the grand Q. Now, going back to your relationship kansas. jury and then one in June of ’98. with the President, you have been described How do all of those lawyers— Since your last testimony before the grand as a friend and advisor to the President. Is A. We have some members of our law firm jury in June of ’98, have you been in contact that a fair terminology? who are from Arkansas, so it’s not unusual with the President of the United States? A. I think that’s fair. for them. A. Yes, I have. Q. And in the advisor capacity, had you Q. And how is it that you are able to ob- Q. And are these social occasions or for served as co-chairman of the Clinton-Gore tain enough business for 800 lawyers? business purposes? transition team in 1992? A. I don’t think that’s my entire responsi- A. Social occasions. I was invited to the A. I believe I was chairman. bility. I’m just one of 800 lawyers, and that Korean State Dinner. I forget when that was. Q. That is an important distinction. is what I do in part, but I’m not alone in that I think that was the first time I was in the And have you served in any other official process of making rain. White House since Martin Luther King Day or semi-official capacities for this adminis- Q. When you say ‘‘making rain,’’ that’s the of last year. tration? terminology of being a rainmaker? I saw the President at Martha’s Vineyard. A. I have not, except that I was asked by A. I think even in Arkansas, you under- I was there when he got off Air Force One to the President to lead the American delega- stand what rainmaking is. greet him and welcome him to—to the Vine- tion to the inauguration of President Li in Q. We’ve read Grisham books. yard, and I was at the White House for one of Taiwan, and that was about as official as you And so, when you say making rain or being the performances about music. The Morgan can get, but beyond that, I have not—not had a rainmaker, that is to bring in business so State Choir sang, and so I’ve been to the any official capacity. that you can keep the lawyers busy prac- White House only for social occasions in the For a very brief moment, very early in the ticing law? last year since Martin Luther King’s birth- administration, I was appointed to the For- A. Well, that is—that is part and parcel of day, I believe. eign Intelligence Advisory Committee, and I the practice of law. Q. Have you had any private conversations went to one meeting and stayed half that Q. And do you bill by the hour? with the President? meeting, went across the street and told A. I do not. A. Yes, I have, as a matter of fact. Bruce Lindsey that that was not for me. Q. And I understand you used to, but you Q. And has this been on the telephone or in Q. Now, let’s move on. After we’ve estab- do not anymore? person? lished to a certain degree your relationship A. I graduated. A. I’ve talked to him on the telephone, and with the President, let’s move on to January Q. A fortunate graduation. I talked to him at the Vineyard. He was at 20th of 1998, and just to put that in clearer And when the—when you did bill by the my house on Christmas Eve. There were a lot terms, this is a Tuesday after the January 17 hour, what was your billable rate the last of people around, but, yes, I’ve talked to the deposition of President Clinton in the Paula time you had to do that? President. Jones civil rights case. Do you recall that A. I believe my billable rate at the last Q. And did you discuss your testimony be- time frame? time was somewhere between 450 and 500 an fore the grand jury or his testimony before A. [Nodding head up and down.] hour. the grand jury? Q. This is in the afternoon of January 20th, Q. Now, would you describe— A. I did not. again, after the President’s deposition. You A. Not bad for a Georgia boy. I’m from Q. There was one reference that he made in contacted Mr. Howard Gittis, who I believe is Georgia. You’ve heard of that State, I’m his Federal grand jury testimony, and I’ll General Counsel of McAndrews & Forbes sure. refer counsel, if they would like. It was on Holdings? Q. It’s probably not bad from Washington page 77 of the President’s testimony in his A. Howard Gittis is Vice Chairman of standards. appearance before the grand jury on August McAndrews, Forbes, and he is not the Gen- Would you describe the nature of your re- 17th. eral Counsel. He is a lawyer, but he is not lationship with President Clinton? And he referenced discussions with you, the General Counsel. A. President Clinton has been a friend of and he said, ‘‘I think I may have been con- Q. And what was the purpose of you con- mine since approximately 1973, when I came fused in my memory because I’ve also talked tacting Mr. Howard Gittis on January 20th? to your State, Arkansas, to make a speech as to him on the phone about what he said, A. If I talked to Howard Gittis on the 20th, president of the National Urban League about whether he had talked to her or met I don’t recall exactly what my conversation about race and equal opportunity in our Na- with her. That’s all I can tell you,’’ and I be- with Howard Gittis was about. I think it was tion, and we met then and there, and our lieve the ‘‘her’’ is a reference to Ms. a telephone call, maybe. friendship has grown and developed and ma- Lewinsky. Q. And that’s difficult. Let me see if I can’t tured and he is my friend and will continue And it appeared to me from reading that, help you in that regard. to be my friend. that there might have been some conversa- A. Right.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1231 Q. Was the purpose of that call with Mr. I had not dealt with him, but that he ought I do believe, on the other hand, that given Gittis to arrange breakfast the next morning to know and that I was sorry about this. the fact that she was in the White House, on January 21st? And I also said that it would probably be given the fact that she had been a White A. Yeah. I was in New York, and I did call even more complicated because early on I House intern, I would not be surprised if that Mr. Gittis and say—and as I remember, I had had referred Webb Hubbell to them to be was their understanding. breakfast with him on the 21st, I believe. hired as counsel. Q. Well, in your conversation with Mr. Yes, I did. Q. And I want to get to that in just a mo- Halperin. Q. And this is a breakfast that you had set ment, but you indicated that you said you A. Yes—I’m certain I did not say that to up? were sorry. Were you referring to the prob- Richard Halperin. A. Yes. lems that this might create for the com- Q. Okay. So there’s no question that you Q. And what was the reason you made the pany? did not tell Mr. Halperin that you were act- decision to request a breakfast meeting with A. Well, I was obviously concerned. I am a ing at the request of the President? Mr. Gittis? director. I am their counsel. They’re my A. I’m fairly certain I did not. A. Yes. As I remember, I had gotten a tele- friends. And publicity was breaking. I Q. And in your conversation with Mr. phone call from David Bloom at 1 o’clock in thought I had some responsibility to them to Perelman, did you indicate to him that you the morning at the St. Regis Hotel about the give them a heads-up as to what was going were calling—or you were seeking—employ- matter that was about to break having to do on. ment for Ms. Lewinsky at the request of the with the entire Lewinsky matter, and I had Q. Now, is it true that your efforts to find President? not at any time discussed the Lewinsky mat- a job for Ms. Lewinsky that you referenced A. Yes—I don’t think that I, that I made ter with—with Howard Gittis. And so I had in that meeting with Mr. Gittis—were your that explicit in my conversation with Mr. breakfast with him to tell him that reporters efforts carried out at the request of the Perelman, and I’m not sure I thought it nec- were calling, that this would obviously in- President of the United States? essary to say ‘‘This is for the President of volve Revlon, which had responded to my— A. There is no question but that through the United States.’’ my efforts to find Ms. Lewinsky employ- Betty Currie, I was acting on behalf of the By the same token, I would have had no ment, and so Howard Gittis is a friend of President to get Ms. Lewinsky a job. I think hesitance in doing that. mine. Howard Gittis is a fellow board mem- that’s clear from my grand jury testimony. Q. Now, at the time that you had called Q. Okay. And I just want to make sure that ber with me at Revlon. He is the Vice Chair- Mr. Perelman, which I believe you testified that’s firmly established. And in reference to man of McAndrews & Forbes, and I thought was in January of ’98— your previous grand jury testimony, you in- it—I thought I had—it was incumbent upon A. That’s right. dicated, I believe, on May 28th, 1998, at page me to stop and say, ‘‘Listen, there’s trouble Q. —I think you said January 8th— 61, that ‘‘She’’—referring to Betty Currie— a-brewing.’’ A. Right. ’’was the one that called me at the behest of Q. And just—you’ve mentioned McAndrews Q. —you were aware at that time, were you the President.’’ not, that Ms. Lewinsky had received a sub- & Forbes and Revlon. McAndrews & Forbes, A. That is correct, and I think, Congress- poena to give a deposition in the Jones am I correct, is the parent company of— man, if in fact the President of the United versus Clinton case? A. It’s the holding company. States’ secretary calls and asks for a request Q. The holding company of Revlon and pre- A. That is correct. that you try to do the best you can to make sumably other companies. Q. At the time that you talked to Mr. it happen. Perelman requesting his assistance for And you sit on the board of McAndrews & Q. And you received that request as a re- Monica Lewinsky, did you advise Mr. Forbes? quest coming from the President? A. I do not. I sit on the board of Revlon. A. I—I interpreted it as a request from the Perelman of the fact that Ms. Lewinsky was Q. All right. And that is a position that President. under subpoena in the Jones case? brings you an annual salary— Q. And then, later on in June of ’98 in the A. I did not. A. There is a director’s fee. grand jury testimony at page 45, did you not Q. And when you—did Mr. Perelman, Mr. Q. You receive a director’s fee, and in addi- reference or testify that ‘‘The President Gittis or Mr. Halperin ever express to you tion, your law firm receives—from business asked me to get Monica Lewinsky a job’’? disappointment that they were not told of from— A. There was no—there was no question two facts—either of these two facts—one, A. We do— but that he asked me to help and that he that Ms. Lewinsky was being helped at the Q. —Revlon? asked others to help. I think that is clear request of the President; and secondly, that A. We do. We do business. We’ve rep- from everybody’s grand jury testimony. she was known by you and the President to resented Revlon, and we represented Revlon Q. And just one more point in that regard. be under subpoena in that case? before I was elected a director. In the same grand jury testimony, is it cor- A. No. Q. And you mention that things were rect that you testified that ‘‘He’’—referring Q. Now, you are on the board of directors breaking that you felt like you needed to ad- to the President—’’was the source of it com- of Revlon. vise Mr. Gittis concerning. At the time that ing to my attention in the first place’’? A. I am. you made the arrangements for the break- A. I may—if that is—if you—if it’s in the— Q. And how long have you been on the fast on January 21st, had you become aware Q. It’s at page 58 of the grand jury— board of Revlon? of the Drudge Report? A. I stand on my grand jury testimony. A. I forget. Ten years, maybe. A. Yes, I had. Q. All right. Now, during your efforts to se- Q. And as a member of the board of direc- Q. And you had had lunch with Bruce cure a job for Ms. Lewinsky, I think you tors, do you not have a fiduciary responsi- Lindsey on January 20th? mentioned that you talked to Mr. Richard bility to the company? A. No. I don’t think it was on January—it Halperin. A. I do. was on Sunday. No, that was not the 20th. A. Yes. Q. And how would you define a fiduciary Q. And during that luncheon, did you be- Q. And he is with McAndrews & Forbes? responsibility? come aware of the Drudge Report— A. Yes. A. I define my fiduciary responsibility to Q. And you also at one point talked to Mr. A. That is correct. the company about company matters. Ron Perelman; is that correct? Q. And how would you define fiduciary re- Q. —and receive a copy of it? A. I made a call to Mr. Perelman, I believe, A. That is correct. sponsibility in reference to company mat- on the 8th of January. Q. And that was from Bruce Lindsey? Q. And he is the— ters? A. That is correct. A. He is the chairman/CEO of McAndrews A. Anything that has to do with the com- Q. And that Drudge Report, did it mention Forbes. He is a majority shareholder in pany, that I believe in the interest of the your name? McAndrews Forbes. This is his business. company, I have some fiduciary responsi- A. I don’t think so, but I don’t remember. Q. Now, at the time that you requested as- bility to protect the company, to help the Q. Was there some news stories that had sistance in obtaining Ms. Lewinsky a job, did company in any way that I—that is possible. mentioned your name in reference to Ms. you advise Mr. Perelman or Mr. Halperin of Q. And is fiduciary responsibility some- Lewinsky and the President? the fact that the request was being carried times considered a trust relationship in A. I believe that my name has been an in- out at the request of the President of the which you owe a degree of trust and respon- tegral part of this process from the begin- United States? sibility to someone else? ning. A. I don’t think so. I may have. A. I think—I think that ‘‘trust’’ and ‘‘fidu- Q. And did you in fact have the breakfast Q. Well, the first answer you gave was ‘‘I ciary’’ are probably synonymous. meeting with Mr. Gittis? don’t think so.’’ Now, in fact, you did not ad- Q. Okay. Do you believe that you were act- A. Yes, I did. vise either Mr. Perelman or Mr. Halperin of ing in the company’s interest or the Presi- Q. And what information did you convey to that fact because am I correct that Mr. dent’s interest when you were trying to se- Mr. Gittis concerning Ms. Lewinsky at that Perelman—or, excuse me, Mr. Gittis—ex- cure a job for Ms. Lewinsky? breakfast meeting? pressed some concern that Revlon was never A. Well, what I knew was that the com- A. I just simply said that the press was advised of that fact? pany would take care of its own interest. calling about Ms. Lewinsky; that while I had A. Then, uh, I cannot say, I guess, pre- This is not the first time that I referred not dealt with him, I had dealt with Richard cisely that I told that ‘‘I am doing this for somebody, and what I know is, is that if a Halperin, I had dealt with Ronald Perelman. the President of the United States.’’ person being referred does not meet the

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1232 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 standards required for that company, I have Q. So those are the only two you talked I called New York, made arrangements. I no question but that that person will not be about, and you made no reference that you took Webb Hubbell to New York. We had hired. And so the referral is an easy thing to were acting in behalf of the President? lunch. I took him the headquarters of do; the judgment about employment is not a A. Right. McAndrews & Forbes at 62nd Street. I intro- judgment as a person referring that I make. Q. Now, the second piece of information duced him to Howard Gittis, Ronald But I do have confidence in all of the compa- was the fact that you knew and the Presi- Perelman, and I left. nies on whose boards that I sit that, regard- dent knew that Ms. Lewinsky was under sub- Q. And did, subsequently, Mr. Hubbell ob- less of my reference, that as to their needs poena in the Jones case, and that informa- tain consulting contracts with Revlon? and as to their expectations for their em- tion was not provided to either Mr. Halperin A. Subsequently, Mr. Hubbell was hired, as ployees that they will make the right deci- or to Mr. Perelman; is that correct? I understand it, as outside counsel to sions, as happened in the American Express A. That’s correct. McAndrews & Forbes, or Revlon, or some en- situation. Q. Now, I wanted to read you a question tity within the Perelman empire. American Express called and said: We will and answer of Mr. Howard Gittis in his grand Q. And was that consulting contracts of not hire Ms. Lewinsky. I did not question it, jury testimony of April 23, 1998. about $100,000 a year? I did not challenge it, because they under- The question was: ‘‘Now, you had men- A. I—I think so, I think so. stood their needs and their needs in compari- tioned before that one of the responsibilities Q. And did you make other contacts with son to her qualifications. They made a judg- of director is to have a fiduciary duty to the other companies in which you had friends for ment. Revlon, on the other hand, made an- company. If it was the case that Ms. assistance for Webb Hubbell? other judgment. Lewinsky had been noticed as a witness in A. I did not. I am not the employer, I am the referrer, the Paula Jones case, and Vernon Jordan had Q. And was the effort to assist Mr. Webb and there is a major difference. known that, is that something that you be- Hubbell during this time—was it after he left Q. Now, going back to what you knew as lieve as a person who works for McAndrews the Department of Justice and prior to the far as information and what you conveyed to & Forbes, is that something that you believe time that he pled guilty to criminal charges? Revlon, you indicated that you did not tell that Mr. Jordan should have told you, or A. That is correct. Mr. Halperin that you were making this re- someone in the company, not necessarily Q. And at the time you assisted Webb Hub- quest or referral at the request of the Presi- you, but someone in the company, when you bell by securing a job with Revlon for him, dent of the United States. referred her for employment?’’ was he a potential adverse witness to the A. Yes, and I didn’t see any need to do His answer was ‘‘Yes.’’ President in the ongoing investigation by that. Do you disagree with Mr. Gittis’’ conclu- the Independent Counsel? Q. And then, when you talked to Mr.— sion that that was important information for A. I don’t know whether he was an adverse A. Nor do I believe not saying that, Coun- McAndrews & Forbes? witness or not. What he was was my friend selor, was a breach of some fiduciary rela- A. I obviously didn’t think it was impor- who had just resigned from the Justice De- tionship. tant at the time, and I didn’t do it. partment, and he was out of work, and he Q. And when you had your conversation Q. Now, in your previous answers, you ref- asked for help, and I happily helped him. with Mr. Perelman— erence the fact that you—— Q. And did you know at the time that he A. Right. A. I think, on the other hand, that had she was a potential witness in the investigation Q. —at a later time— been a defendant in a murder case and I by the OIC? A. Right. knew that, then I probably wouldn’t have A. I don’t know whether I knew whether he Q. —you do not remember whether you referenced her. But her being a witness in a was a potential witness or not. I simply re- told him—you do not believe you told him civil case I did not think important. sponded to Webb Hubbell who was a friend in you were calling for the President— Q. Despite the fact that you were acting at trouble and needing work. A. I believe that I did not tell him. the request of the President, and this wit- Q. Now, let’s backtrack to the time when Q. —but you assumed that he knew? ness was potentially adverse to the Presi- you first had any contact with Ms. A. No. I did not make any assumptions, let dent’s interest in that case? Lewinsky. We’ve talked about this January me say. I said: Ronald, here is a young lady A. I didn’t know that. I mean, I don’t—I 20–21st meeting with Mr. Gittis and covered who has been interviewed. She thinks the don’t know what her position was or whether a little bit of the tail end of this entire epi- interview has not gone well. See what you it was adverse or not. sode. Now I would like to go back in time to can do to make sure that she is properly Q. All right. Mr. Jordan, prior to you an- your first meetings with Ms. Lewinsky. interviewed and evaluated—in essence. swering that, did you get an answer from Now, when was the first time that you re- Q. And did you reference her as a former your attorney? call that you met with Monica Lewinsky? White House intern? A. My attorney mumbled something in my A. If you’ve read my grand jury testi- A. Probably. I do not have a recollection of ear, but I didn’t hear him. mony— whether I described her as a White House in- MR. HUNDLEY: It was a spontaneous re- Q. I have. tern, whether I described her as a person who mark. I’ll try to refrain. A. —and I’m sure that you have—there is had worked for the Pentagon. I said this is a MR. HUTCHINSON: I know that— testimony in the grant jury that she came to person that I have referred. THE WITNESS: He does have a right to see me on or about the 5th of November. I I think, Mr. Hutchinson, that I have suffi- mumble in my ear, I think. have no recollection of that. It was not on cient, uh, influence, shall we say, sufficient MR. HUNDLEY: I mumble too loud be- my calendar, and I just have no recollection character, shall we say, that people have cause I don’t hear too well myself. of her visit. There is a letter here that you been throughout my career able to take my BY MR. HUTCHINSON: have in evidence, and I have to assume that word at face value. Q. Now, going back to a complicating fac- in fact that happened. But as I said in my Q. And so you didn’t need to reference the tor in your conversation with Mr. Gittis and grand jury testimony, I’m not aware of it, I President. The fact that you were calling Mr. this embarrassing situation of the Lewinsky don’t remember it—but I do not deny that it Perelman— job, the complicating fact was that you had happened. A. That was sufficient. also helped Webb Hubbell get a job or con- Q. And Ms. Lewinsky has made reference Q. —and asking for a second interview for sulting contracts with the same company; is to a meeting that occurred in your office on Ms. Lewinsky, that that should be suffi- that— November 5, and that’s the meeting that you cient? A. Yes. You use the word ‘‘complicated.’’ I have no recollection of? A. I thought it was sufficient, and obvi- did not view it as a complication. I viewed it A. That is correct. We have no record of it ously, Mr. Perelman thought it was suffi- as a, as another something that happened, in my office, and I just have no recollection cient. and that that caused some embarrassment to of it. Q. And so there is no reason, based on what the company, and here again, we were back Q. And in your first grand jury appearance, you told him, for him to think that you were for another embarrassment for the company, you were firm, shall I say, that the first time calling at the request of the President of the and I thought I had a responsibility to say you met with Ms. Lewinsky, that it was on United States? that. December 11th? A. I think that’s about right. Q. Would you explain how you helped Webb A. Yes. It was firm based on what my cal- Q. And so, at least with the conversation Hubbell secure a job or a contract with endar told me, and subsequently to that, with Mr. Halperin and Mr. Perelman, you did Revlon? there has been a refreshing of my recollec- not reference that you were acting in behalf A. Yes. Webb Hubbell came to me after his tion, and I do not deny that it happened. By of the President of the United States. Was resignation from the Justice Department. the same token, I will tell you, as I said in there anyone else that you talked to at Webb and I got to be friends during the tran- my grand jury testimony, that I did not re- Revlon in which they might have acquired sition, and Webb came to me and he said, member that I had met with her. that information? ‘‘I’m leaving the Justice Department,’’ or Q. And in fact today, the fact that you do A. The only persons that I talked to in this ‘‘I’ve left the Justice Department’’—I’m not not dispute that that meeting occurred is process, as I explained to you, was Mr. sure which—and he said, ‘‘I really need not based upon your recollection but is sim- Halperin and Mr. Perelman about this proc- work.’’ ply based upon you’ve seen the records, and ess. And it was Mr. Halperin who put the— And I said, ‘‘Webb, I will do what I can to it appears that that meeting occurred? who got the process started. help you.’’ A. That is correct.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1233 Q. Okay. And you’ve made reference to my did the meeting on December 11 of 1997 with A. I—I believe that’s correct. first exhibit there, which is front of you, and Ms. Lewinsky come about? Q. And you called Mr. Richard Halperin of I would refer you to this at this time, which A. Ms. Lewinsky called my office and McAndrews & Forbes? is Exhibit 86. asked if she could come to see me. A. That’s right. Now, this is captioned as a ‘‘Letter from Q. And was that preceded by a call from Q. You called Mr. Peter— Ms. Lewinsky to Mr. Vernon Jordan dated Betty Currie? A. Georgescu. November 6, 1997,’’ and it appears that this A. At some point in time, Betty Currie had Q. —Georgescu. And he is with what com- letter thanks you for meeting with her in called me, and Ms. Lewinsky followed up on pany? reference to her job search. And do you re- that call, and she came to my office, and we A. He is chairman and chief executive offi- call this— had a visit. cer of Young & Rubicam, a leading adver- MR. KENDALL: Mr. Hutchinson, excuse Q. Ms. Lewinsky called, set up a meeting, tising agency on Madison Avenue. me. May I ask—this is an unsigned copy. Do and at some point sent you a resume, I be- Q. And did you make one other call? A. Yes. I called Ursie Fairbairn, who runs you have a signed copy of this letter? lieve. MR. HUTCHINSON: Let me go through my A. I believe so. Human Resources at American Express, at Q. And did you receive that prior to the questions if I might. the American Express Company, where I am meeting on December 11th? BY MR. HUTCHINSON: the senior director. A. I—I have to assume that I did, but I—I Q. All right. And so you made three calls Q. Do you recall receiving this letter? do not know whether she brought it with her A. I do not. on December 11th. You believe that they or whether—it was at some point that she Q. Do you ever recall seeing this letter be- were after you met with Ms. Lewinsky— brought with her or sent to me—somehow it A. I doubt very seriously if I would have fore? came into my possession—a list of various A. The first time I saw this letter was made the calls in advance of meeting her. companies in New York with which she had— Q. And why is that? when I was before the grand jury. which were here preferences, by the way— A. You sort of have to know what you’re Q. And am I correct that it’s your testi- most of which I did not know well enough to talking about, who you’re talking about. mony that the first time you ever recall make any calls for. Q. And what did you basically commu- hearing the name ‘‘Monica Lewinsky’’ was in Q. All right. And I want to come back to nicate to each of these officials in behalf of early December of ’97? that, but I believe—would you dispute if the Ms. Lewinsky? A. That’s correct. I—I may have heard the record shows that you received the resume of A. I essentially said that you’re going to name before, but the first time I remember Ms. Lewinsky on December 8th? hear from Ms. Lewinsky, and I hope that you seeing her and having her in my presence A. I would not. will afford her an opportunity to come in and was then. Q. And presumably, the meeting on Decem- be interviewed and look favorably upon her Q. Well, regardless of whether you met ber 11th was set up somewhere around De- if she meets your qualifications and your with her in November or not, the fact is you cember 8th by the call from Ms. Lewinsky? needs for work. did not do anything in November to secure a A. I—I would not dispute that, sir. Q. Okay. And at what level did you try to job for Ms. Lewinsky until your activities on Q. All right. Now, you mentioned that she communicate this information? December 11 of ’97? had sent you a—I guess some people refer to A. By—what do you mean by ‘‘what level’’? A. I think that’s correct. it—a wish list, or a list of jobs that she— Q. In the company that you were calling, Q. And on December 11, I think you made A. Not jobs—companies. did you call the chairman of human re- some calls for Ms. Lewinsky on that par- Q. —companies that she would be inter- sources, did you call the CEO—who did you ticular day? ested in seeking employment with. call, or what level were you seeking to talk A. I believe I did. I have some—it’s all A. That’s correct. to? Q. And you looked at that, and you deter- right for me to refresh my recollection? A. Richard Halperin is sort of the utility mined that you wanted to go with your own Q. Certainly. man; he does everything at McAndrews & list of friends and companies that you had A. Thank you. [Perusing documents.] I did Forbes. He is very close to the chairman, he better contacts with. make calls for her on the 11th, yes. is very close to Mr. Gittis. And so at Q. And may I just ask what you’re refer- A. I’m sure, Congressman, that you too have been in this business, and you do know McAndrews & Forbes, I called Halperin. ring to? As I said to you, and as my grand jury tes- that you can only call people that you know A. I’m referring here to telephone logs pre- timony shows, I called Young & Rubicam, pared by counsel here for me to refresh my or feel comfortable in calling. Q. Absolutely. No question about it. And Peter Georgescu as its chairman and CEO. I recollection about calls. have had a long-term relationship with MR. HUNDLEY: You are welcome to have let me just comment and ask you response to this, but many times I will be listed as a ref- Young & Rubicam going back to three of its a copy of that. CEOs, the first being Edward Ney, who was THE WITNESS: You are welcome to see it. erence, and they can take that to any com- pany. You might be listed as a reference and chairman of Young & Rubicam when I was MR. HUTCHINSON: Do you have an extra head of the United Negro College Fund, and copy? the name ‘‘Vernon Jordan’’ would be a good reference anywhere, would it not? it was during that time that we developed THE WITNESS: Yes—in anticipation. the great theme, ‘‘A mind is a terrible thing MR. HUNDLEY: There are a few calls. A. I would hope so. Q. And so, even though it was a company to waste.’’ So I have had a long-term rela- SENATOR THOMPSON: Might this be a tionship with Young & Rubicam and with good time to take a 5–minute break? that you might not have the best contact with, you could have been helpful in that re- Peter Georgescu, so I called the chairman in MR. HUTCHINSON: Certainly. that instance. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. Let’s gard? A. Well, the fact is I was running the job At American Express, I called Ms. Ursie adjourn for 5 minutes. search, not Ms. Lewinsky, and therefore, the Fairbairn who is, as I said before, in charge THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off companies that she brought or listed were of Human Resources. the record at 10:03 a.m. not of interest to me. I knew where I would So that is the level—in one instance, the [Recess.] need to call. chairman; in one instance a utilitarian per- THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going back Q. And that is exactly the point, that you son; and in another instance, the head of the on the record at 10:16 a.m. looked at getting Ms. Lewinsky a job as an Human Resources Department. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. Counsel assignment rather than just something that Q. And the utilitarian connection, Mr. has consumed 38 minutes. you were going to be a reference for. Richard Halperin, was sort of an assistant to Counsel, would you proceed? A. I don’t know whether I looked upon it as Mr. Ron Perelman? MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senator an assignment. Getting jobs for people is not A. That’s correct. He’s a lawyer. Thompson. unusual for me, so I don’t view it as an as- Q. Now, going to your meeting on Decem- At this time, I would offer as Jordan Depo- signment. I just view it as something that is ber 11th with Ms. Lewinsky, about how long sition Exhibit 86, if you don’t mind me going part of what I do. of a meeting was that? by that numerology— Q. You’re acting in behalf of the President A. I don’t—I don’t remember. You have a SENATOR THOMPSON: Would it be better when you are trying to get Ms. Lewinsky a record of it, Congressman. to do that or make it Jordan Exhibit Num- job, and you were in control of the job Q. And actually, I think you’ve testified it ber 1? Does counsel have any preference on search? was about 15 to 20 minutes, but don’t hold that—is that— A. Yes. me to that, either. MR. HUTCHINSON: One is fine. Q. Now, going back—going to your meeting During the course of the meeting with Ms. SENATOR THOMPSON: Let’s do it that that we’re talking about on December 11th, Lewinsky, what did you learn about her? way. It will be made a part of the record, prior to the meeting did you make any calls A. Uh, enthusiastic, quite taken with her- Jordan Deposition Number 1. to prospective employers in behalf of Ms. self and her experience, uh, bubbly, effer- [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 1 marked Lewinsky? vescent, bouncy, confident, uh—actually, I for identification.] A. I don’t think so. I think not. I think I sort of had the same impression that you BY MR. HUTCHINSON: wanted to see her before I made any calls. House Managers had of her when you met Q. Mr. Jordan, let me go back to that Q. And so if they were not before, after you with her. You came out and said she was im- meeting on December 11th. I believe we were met with her, you made some calls on De- pressive, and so we come out about the same discussing that. My question would be: How cember 11th? place.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1234 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Q. And did she relate to you the fact that A. I stand on that testimony. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, let the she liked being an intern because it put her Q. All right. And so there’s two conversa- record reflect that we’ve been down for 20 to close to the President? tions after the witness list came out—one 25 minutes due to a power failure, but we are A. I have never seen a White House intern that you had with the President on Decem- ready to proceed now, counsel. who did not like being a White House intern, ber 7th, and then a subsequent conversation MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senator and so her enthusiasm for being a White with him after you met with Ms. Lewinsky Thompson. House intern was about like the enthusiasm on the 11th. And Mr. Jordan, before we go back to my of White House interns—they liked it. Now, in your subsequent conversation line of questioning, I have been informed She was not happy about not being there after the 11th, did you discuss with the Presi- that we have that question in which we did anymore—she did not like being at the De- dent of the United States Monica Lewinsky, not get an audible response, and so I’m going fense Department—and I think she actually and if so, can you tell us what that discus- to ask the court reporter to read that ques- had some desire to go back. But when she ac- sion was? tion back. tually talked to me, she wanted to go to New A. If there was a discussion subsequent to [The court reporter read back the re- York for a job in the private sector, and she Monica Lewinsky’s visit to me on December quested portion of the record.] thought that I could be helpful in that proc- the 11th with the President of the United THE WITNESS: I did not know that she ess. States, it was about the job search. was on the witness list, Congressman. And Q. Did she make reference to someone in Q. All right. And during that, did he indi- let me say parenthetically here that our side the White House being uncomfortable when cate that he knew about the fact that she had nothing to do with the power outage. she was an intern, and she thought that peo- had lost her job in the White House, and she [Laughter.] ple did not want her there? wanted to get a job in New York? THE WITNESS: As desirable as that may A. She felt unwanted—there is no question A. He was aware that—he was obviously have been. about that. As to who did not want her there aware that she had lost her job in the White [Laughter.] and why they did not want her there, that House, because she was working at the Pen- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: was not my business. tagon. He was also aware that she wanted to Q. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. And again, Q. And she related that— work in New York, in the private sector, and we’re talking about the fact you never A. She talked about it. understood that that is why she was having thought about the President not telling you Q. —experience or feeling to you? conversations with me. There is no doubt that Ms. Lewinsky was on the witness list A. Yes. about that. because you didn’t know it at the time. Q. Now, your meeting with Ms. Lewinsky Q. And he thanked you for helping her? A. I—I did not know it. was on December 11th, and I believe that Ms. A. There’s no question about that, either. Q. All right. Now, before we go back to De- Lewinsky has testified that she met with the Q. And on either of these conversations cember 19th, I’ve also been informed that President on December 5—excuse me, on De- that I’ve referenced that you had with the I’ve been neglectful, and sometimes you will cember 6—at the White House and com- President after the witness list came out, give a nod of the head, and I’ve not asked plained that her job search was not going your conversation on December 7th, and you to give an audible response. So I’m going anywhere, and the President then talked to your conversation sometime after the 11th, to try to be mindful of that, but at the same Mr. Jordan. did the President tell you that Ms. Monica time, Mr. Jordan, if you can try to give an Do you recall the President talking to you Lewinsky was on the witness list in the audible response to a question rather than about that after that meeting? Jones case? what we sometimes do in private conversa- A. I do not have a specific recollection of A. He did not. tion, which is a nod of the head. Fair the President saying to me anything about Q. And did you consider this information enough? having met with Ms. Lewinsky. The Presi- to be important in your efforts to be helpful A. I’m happy to comply. dent has never told me that he met with Ms. to Ms. Lewinsky? Q. Now, we’re talking about December Lewinsky, as best as I can recollect. I—I am A. I never thought about it. 19th, that you had received a call from aware that she was in a state of anxiety Q. Was there a time that you became Monica Lewinsky; she had been subpoenaed about going to work. She was in a state of aware that Ms. Lewinsky had been subpoe- in the Jones case. She was upset. You said, anxiety in addition because her lease at Wa- naed to give a deposition in the Jones versus Come to my office. tergate, at the Watergate, was to expire De- Clinton case? Now, when she got to the office, I asked cember 31st. And there was a part of Ms. A. On December 19th when she came to my you, actually, before that, what was your re- Lewinsky, I think, that thought that be- office with the subpoena—I think it’s the action to her having this subpoena, and she cause she was coming to me, that she could 19th. had a problem because of the subpoena. come today and that she would have a job to- Q. That’s right. Now, you indicated you A. Yes. never thought about it, because of course, at morrow. That is not an unusual misappre- Q. And I believe you previously indicated that point, you didn’t know that she was on hension, and it’s not limited to White House that any time a witness gets a subpoena, the witness list, according to your testi- interns. they’ve got a problem that they would likely Q. I mentioned her meeting with the Presi- mony. need legal assistance. dent on the same day, December 6th. I be- A. [Nodding head up and down.] A. That’s been my experience. lieve the record shows the President met Q. Now, you said that she came to see you Q. And in fact she did subsequently come with his lawyers and learned that Ms. on December 19th—I’m sorry. I’ve been in- to see you at the office on that December Lewinsky was on the Jones witness list. formed you didn’t respond out loud, so— 19th, is that correct? A. Well, if you’d ask the question, I’d be Now, did you subsequently meet with the A. That’s correct. happy to respond. President on the next day, December 7th? Q. And what happened at that meeting in A. I may have met with the President. I’d Q. I was afraid you would ask me to ask your office with Ms. Lewinsky on the 19th? have to—I mean, I’d have to look. I’d have to the question again. A. She, uh, as I said, was quite emotional. look. I don’t know whether I did or not. Well, let’s go to the December 19th meet- She was—she was disturbed about the sub- Q. If you would like to confer—I believe ing. poena. She was disturbed about not having, the record shows that, but I’d like to estab- A. Fine. in her words, heard from the President or lish that through your testimony. Q. How did it come about that you met MS. WALDEN: Yes. with Ms. Lewinsky on December 19th? talked to the President. THE WITNESS: Yes. A. Ms. Lewinsky called me in a rather high It was also in that meeting that it became BY MR. HUTCHINSON: emotional state and said that she needed to clear to me that the—that her eyes were Q. All right. So you met with the President see me, and she came to see me. wide and that she, uh, that—let me—for lack on December 7th. And was it the next day Q. And she called you on the telephone on of a better way to put it, that she had a after that, December 8th, that Ms. Lewinsky December 19th, in which she indicated she ‘‘thing’’ for the President. called to set up the job meeting with you on had received a subpoena? Q. And how long was that meeting? December 11th? A. That’s right, and was emotional about it A. I don’t know, uh, but it’s in the record. A. I believe that is correct. and asked, and so I said come over. MR. HUNDLEY: You testified 45 minutes. Q. And sometime after your meeting on Q. And what was your reaction to her hav- THE WITNESS: Forty-five minutes. Thank December 11th with Ms. Lewinsky, did you ing received a subpoena in the Jones case? you. have another conversation with the Presi- A. Surprise, number one; number two, MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you. dent? quite taken with her emotional state. MR. HUNDLEY: Is that okay if I— A. Uh, you do understand that conversa- Q. And did you see that she had a problem? MR. HUTCHINSON: That’s all right, and tions between me and the President, uh, was A. She obviously had a problem—she that’s helpful, Mr. Hundley. not an unusual circumstance. thought— MR. HUNDLEY: Thank you. I’m trying to Q. And I understand that— THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have to go off be helpful. A. All right. the record. BY MR. HUTCHINSON: Q. —and so let me be more specific. I be- SENATOR THOMPSON: Off the record. Q. And during this meeting, did she in fact lieve your previous testimony has been that [Recess due to power failure.] show you the subpoena that she had received sometime after the 11th, you spoke with the THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going back in the Jones litigation? President about Ms. Lewinsky. on the record at 10:49 a.m. A. I’m sure she showed me the subpoena.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1235 Q. And the subpoena that was presented to A. I have four children; six grandchildren. this way. Did her answer make you consider you asked her to give a deposition, is that Q. And you’ve raised kids, you’ve had a lot whether it was appropriate for you to con- correct? of experiences in life, and do you not apply tinue seeking a job for Ms. Lewinsky at the A. As I recollect. that knowledge and experience and wisdom request of the President? Q. But did it also ask Ms. Lewinsky or di- to circumstances such as this? A. I did not see any reason why I should rect her to produce certain documents and A. Yes. I’ve been around, and I’ve seen not continue to help her in her job search. tangible objects? young people, both men and women, overly Q. Now, was the fact that she was under A. I think, if I’m correct in my recollec- excited about older, mature, successful indi- subpoena important information to you? tion, it asked that she produce gifts. viduals, yes. A. It was additional information, cer- Q. Gifts, and some of those gifts were spe- Q. Now, let me just go back as to what sig- tainly. cifically enumerated. nals that you might have had at this par- Q. If you were trying to get Ms. Lewinsky A. I don’t remember that. I do remember ticular point that there was a sexual rela- a job, did you expect her to tell you if she gifts. tionship between Ms. Lewinsky and the had any reason to believe she might be a wit- Q. And did you discuss any of the items re- President. Was one of those the fact that she ness in the Jones case? quested under the subpoena? indicated that she had a fascination with the A. She did in fact tell me by showing me A. I did not. What I said to her was that President? the subpoena. I had no expectations one way she needed counsel. A. Yes. or the other. Q. Now, just to help you in reference to Q. And did she relate that ‘‘He doesn’t call Q. Well, I refer you to your grand jury tes- your previous grand jury testimony of March me enough’’? timony of March 3, ’98 at page 96. Do you re- 3, ’98—and if you would like to refer to that, A. Yes. call the answer: ‘‘I just think that as a mat- page 121, but I believe it was your testimony Q. And was the fact that there was an ex- ter of openness and full disclosure that she that you asked her if there had been any change of gifts a factor in your consider- would have done that.’’ gifts after you looked at the subpoena. ation? A. And she did. A. I may have done that, and if I—if that’s A. Well, I was not aware that there had Q. Precisely. She disclosed to you, of in my testimony, I stand by it. been an exchange of gifts. I thought it a tad course, when she received the subpoena, and Q. And did she—from your conversation unusual that there would be an exchange of that’s information that you expected to with her, did you determine that in your gifts, uh, but it was just clear that there was know and to be disclosed to you? opinion, there was a fascination on her part a fixation by this young woman on the Presi- A. Fine. with the President? dent of the United States. Q. Is— A. No question about that. Q. And was it also a factor that she had A. Yes. Fine. Q. And I think you previously described it been issued a subpoena in a case that was Q. And in fact, if Ms. Currie—I’m talking that she had a ‘‘thing’’ for the President? rooted in sexual harassment? about Betty Currie—if she had known that A. ‘‘Thing,’’ yes. A. Well, it certainly helped. Ms. Lewinsky was under subpoena, you Q. And did you make any specific inquiry Q. And that was an ingredient that you would have expected her to tell you that in- as to the nature of the relationship that she factored in and decided this is a question formation as well since you were seeking had with the President? that needed to be asked? employment for Ms. Lewinsky? A. Yes. At some point during that con- A. There’s no question about that. A. Well, it would have been fine had she Q. Now, heretofore, the questions or the versation, I asked her directly if she had had told me. I do make a distinction between discussions with Ms. Lewinsky had simply sexual relationships with the President. being a witness on the one hand and being a been about a job? Q. And is this not an extraordinary ques- defendant in some sort of criminal action on A. Had been about a job. tion to ask a 24-year-old intern, whether she Q. And I think you indicated that you the other. She was a witness in the civil had sexual relations with the President of didn’t have to be an Einstein to know that case, and I don’t believe witnesses in civil the United States? this was a question that needed to be asked cases don’t have a right for—to employment. A. Not if you see—not if you had witnessed after what you learned on this meeting? Q. Okay. I refer you to page 95 of your her emotional state and this ‘‘thing,’’ as I A. Yes, based on my own judgment, that is grand jury testimony, in which you said: ‘‘I say. It was not. correct. believe that had Ms. Currie known, that she Q. And her emotional state and what she Q. Now, at this point, you’re assisting the would have told me.’’ expressed to you about her feelings for the President in obtaining a job for a former in- And the next question: ‘‘Let me ask the President is what prompted you to ask that tern, Monica Lewinsky? question again, though. Would you have ex- question? A. Right. pected her to tell you if she knew?’’ A. That, plus the question of whether or Q. It comes to your attention from Ms. And do you recall your answer? not the President at the end of his term Lewinsky that she has a subpoena in a civil A. I don’t. would leave the First Lady; and that was rights case against the President. And did Q. ‘‘Yes, sure.’’ alarming and stunning to me. this make you consider whether it was ap- A. I stand by that answer. Q. And she related that question to you in propriate for you to continue seeking a job Q. And so it’s your testimony that if Ms. that meeting on December 19th? for Ms. Lewinsky? Currie had known that Ms. Lewinsky was A. That’s correct. A. Never gave it a thought. under subpoena, you would have expected Q. Now, going back to the question in Q. Despite the fact that you were seeking her to tell you that information? which you asked her if she had had a sexual the job for Ms. Lewinsky at the request of A. It would have been helpful. relationship with the President, what was the President when she is under subpoena in Q. And likewise, would you have expected her response? a case adverse to the President? the President to tell you if he had any rea- A. No. A. I—I did not give it a thought. I had com- son to believe that Ms. Lewinsky would be Q. And I’m sure that that was not an idle mitted that I was going to help her, and I called as a witness in the Paula Jones case? question on your part, and I presume that was going to—and I kept my commitment. A. That would have been helpful, too. you needed to know the answer for some pur- Q. And so, however she would have an- Q. And that was your expectation, that he pose. swered that question, you would have still would have done that in your conversations? A. I wanted to know the answer based on prevailed upon your friends in industry to A. It—it would certainly have been helpful, what I had seen in her expression; obviously, get a job for her? but it would not have changed my mind. based on the fact that this was a subpoena A. Congressman, that is a hypothetical Q. Well, being helpful and that being your about her relationship with the President. question, and I’m not going to answer a hy- expectation is a little bit different, and so I Q. And so you felt like you needed to know pothetical question. want to go back again to your testimony on the answer to that question to determine Q. Well, I thought you had answered it be- March 3, page 95, when the question is asked how you were going to handle the situation? fore, but if—so you don’t know whether it to you—question: ‘‘If the President had any A. No. I thought it was a factual data that would have made a difference or not, then? reason to believe that Ms. Lewinsky could be I needed to know, and I asked the question. A. I asked her whether or not she had had called a witness in the Paula Jones case, Q. And why did you need to know the an- sexual relationships with the President. Ms. would you have expected him to tell you swer to that question? Lewinsky told me no. that when you spoke with him between the A. I am referring this lady, Ms. Lewinsky, MR. HUNDLEY: I’d just like to interject. 11th and the 19th about her?’’ to various companies for jobs, and it seemed My recollection, Congressman, is that in the And your answer: ‘‘And I think he would to me that it was important for me to know grand jury, he gave basically the same an- have.’’ in that process whether or not there had swer, that it was a hypothetical question, A. My answer was yes in the grand jury been something going on with the President and that he really didn’t know what he testimony, and my answer is yes today. based on what I saw and based on what I would have done had the answer been dif- Q. All right. So it would have been helpful, heard. ferent. You could double-check it if you and it was something you would have ex- Q. And also based upon your years of expe- want, but I’m sure I’m right. pected? rience—I mean your— BY MR. HUTCHINSON: A. Yes. A. I don’t understand that question. Q. Okay, I’m not asking you a hypothetical Q. And yet, according to your testimony, Q. Well, you have children? question. I want to ask it in this phrase, in the President did not so advise you of that

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1236 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 fact in the conversations that he had with called 1414, that somehow Deborah Schiff present. The wave-in sheet from my office you on December 7th and December 11th was answering the telephone. said that she came in at 5:47— after he learned that Ms. Lewinsky was on Q. Were you trying to get hold of the Presi- Q. Four forty-seven. the witness list? dent? A. —4:47. She may have been in the recep- A. As I testified— A. I think maybe I was. tion area, or she may have been outside my MR. KENDALL: Objection. Misstates the Q. All right. And then, subsequent to that, office, but Ms. Lewinsky was not in my of- record with regard to December 11th. Ms. Lewinsky arrived in your office at 4:47 fice during the time that I had a conversa- MR. HUTCHINSON: I—I will restate the p.m.—and I believe that would be reflected tion with the President. question. I believe it accurately reflects the on Exhibit 3—excuse me—Exhibit 4. Q. And the other alternative would be that record, and I’ll ask the question. MR. HUNDLEY: Four. she came into your office, and then you ex- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: THE WITNESS: Yes. cused her while you received a call from the Q. And yet, according to your testimony, BY MR. HUTCHINSON: President? the President did not so advise you of the Q. And does it also reflect, going back to A. That’s a possibility, too— fact that Ms. Lewinsky was on the witness the call records, that you talked to the Q. All right. list despite the fact that he had conversa- President during the course of your meeting A. —but she was not present in my office tions with you on two occasions, on Decem- with Ms. Lewinsky at approximately 5:01 proper during the time that I was having a ber 7th and December 11th? p.m.? conversation with the President. A. I have no recollection of the President A. I beg your pardon? Q. Absolutely, and that is clear. telling me about the witness list. MR. HUTCHINSON: This would be Exhibit Now, because we got a little bogged down Q. And during this meeting with Ms. 5. in the records, let me just go back for a mo- Lewinsky on the 11th, did you take some ac- SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. Let’s ment. Is it your understanding, based upon tion as a result of what she told you? mark these for identification purposes. the records and recollection, that you re- A. On the 11th or the 18th? We have already identified Deposition Ex- ceived a call from Ms. Lewinsky about 1:47; Q. Excuse me. I’m sorry. Let me go to the hibit Number 29 as Exhibit Number 2 for you talked to Deborah Schiff trying to get 19th. identification in Mr. Jordan’s deposition. hold of the President about 3:51 that after- A. Nineteenth. The next one would be Grand Jury Exhibit noon; Ms. Lewinsky arrived at about 4:47 Q. Thank you for that correction. Number 31, and we will mark that as Exhibit p.m. Did you refer her to an attorney? Number 3 for identification purposes. Fol- A. Yes. A. Yes, I did. lowing that will be Grand Jury Exhibit Num- Q. Am I correct so far? Q. Okay, and who was the attorney that ber 32, that we will identify as Exhibit Num- A. Yes. you referred her to? ber 4 to Mr. Jordan’s deposition for identi- Q. And then you received a call from the A. Frank Carter, a very able local attorney fication purposes; and Grand Jury Exhibit President at about 5:01 p.m.? here. Number 33 will be Exhibit Number 5 to Mr. A. That’s correct. Q. And did you give her two or three attor- Jordan’s deposition for identification pur- MR. HUTCHINSON: I want to say ‘‘Your neys to select from, or did you just give her poses. Honor’’—I’ve wanting to do this all day, Sen- one recommendation? Now, do we need to go any further at this ator—I would offer these Exhibits 2, 3, 4 and A. I made a recommendation of Frank Car- time? 5 at this time. ter. That was the only recommendation. MR. HUTCHINSON: No. Thank you. MR. KENDALL: I would object to the ad- Q. Now, let me go to I believe it’s the next SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. mission of Exhibit Number 2. three exhibits that are in front of you, if [Jordan Deposition Exhibit Nos. 3, 4 and 5 SENATOR THOMPSON: Mr. Hutchinson, you’d just turn that first page, and I believe marked for identification.] could you identify what this exhibit is from? they are marked 29, 31, 32 and 33. And these BY MR. HUTCHINSON: MR. HUTCHINSON: Well, this exhibit is a are, I believe, exhibits that you have seen be- Q. Mr. Jordan— summary exhibited based upon the original fore and are summaries and documents relat- A. Yes. records that establish this. Now, we’ve estab- ing to telephone conversations on this par- Q. —under Exhibit— lished it clearly through the testimony, so ticular day of December 19th. A. Yes. it’s not of earth-shattering significance [Witness perusing documents.] Q. —according to these records, specifi- whether this is in the record or not, because SENATOR DODD: How are these going to cally Exhibit 5, does it reflect that you the witness has established it. be marked—as Jordan Deposition Exhibits— talked to the President during the course of SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. But this MR. HUTCHINSON: These should be your meeting with Ms. Lewinsky at approxi- is a compilation of what you contend— marked as Exhibits 2, 3, and 4. mately 5:01 p.m.? MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. SENATOR DODD: Okay. MR. KENDALL: Object to the form of the SENATOR THOMPSON: —is otherwise in MR. KENDALL: Excuse me, Mr. Manager. question. the record? Are you offering these in evidence? MR. HUTCHINSON: You may answer. MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. MR. HUTCHINSON: Not at this time. THE WITNESS: I’m confused. SENATOR THOMPSON: Counsel, do we I guess it’s 2, 3, 4 and 5. MR. HUTCHINSON: There’s an objection really have a problem with that? SENATOR THOMPSON: Are we referring as to the form of the question. MR. KENDALL: Senator Thompson, I don’t to the next four exhibits in the package THE WITNESS: Oh. know who prepared this or what records it’s here? SENATOR THOMPSON: We can resolve it. based on. I have not objected to any of the MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes, sir. MR. KENDALL: The question was do these original records, and I’ll continue my objec- SENATOR THOMPSON: Well, we’ll just— records indicate this. If he offers Number 2, tion. identify them one at a time, and we’ll— I’m going to object to it. It’s not the best SENATOR THOMPSON: I think in light of MR. HUTCHINSON: All right. evidence. It’s a chart. I don’t know who pre- that we will sustain it, if Mr. Hutchinson BY MR. HUTCHINSON: pared it— thinks it’s otherwise in the record anyway, Q. Let’s go to Exhibit 29 as it’s marked, SENATOR THOMPSON: He’s referring to 5 and not make an issue out of that. but for our purpose, we’re going to refer to it now, I believe, isn’t he? So we will, then, make as a part of the as Deposition Exhibit 2. MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. record Exhibits Numbers 3, 4 and 5 that have SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. For SENATOR THOMPSON: I believe this had previously been introduced for identification identification for right now, we’ll call that to do with 5. purposes; they will now be made a part of the Jordan Exhibit Number 2 for identification, MR. HUTCHINSON: All right. record. which is marked as, I assume, Grand Jury THE WITNESS: Would you ask your ques- MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senator. Exhibit Number 29. tion? [Jordan Deposition Exhibit Nos. 3, 4 and 5 [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 2 marked BY MR. HUTCHINSON: received in evidence.] for identification.] Q. Mr. Jordan, I’m simply trying to estab- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: BY MR. HUTCHINSON: lish, and using Exhibit 5 to refresh your Q. Now, Mr. Jordan, you indicated you had Q. And from this record, would you agree recollection— this conversation with the President at that you received a call from Ms. Lewinsky MR. KENDALL: I withdraw the objection, about 5:01 p.m. out of the presence of Ms. at 1:47 p.m.? I withdraw the objection. Lewinsky. Now, during this conversation A. For 11 seconds. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir; very with the President, what did you tell the Q. All right. And subsequent to that, you fine. President in that conversation? placed a call to talk to the President at 3:51 MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you. A. That Lewinsky—I’m sure I told him p.m. and talked to Deborah Schiff? BY MR. HUTCHINSON: that Ms. Lewinsky was in my office, in the A. Yes. Q. —that this record, Exhibit 5, reflects reception area, that she had a subpoena and Q. And what was the purpose of that call to that you talked to the President during the that I was going to visit with her. Deborah Schiff? course of your meeting with Ms. Lewinsky at Q. And did you advise the President as well A. I—I’m certain that I did not call Debo- approximately 5:01 p.m. that you were going to recommend Frank rah Schiff. I had no reason to call Deborah A. Yes. I—I have never had a conversation Carter as an attorney? Schiff. My suspicion was that if I in fact with the President while Ms. Lewinsky was A. I may have.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1237 Q. And why was it necessary to tell the President would leave the First Lady at the A. [Nodding head up and down.] President these facts? end of his term? Q. And so you were having—is the answer A. I don’t know why it was not unneces- A. That is correct. yes? sary to tell him these facts. I was keeping Q. And what was your reaction to this A. That’s correct. him informed about what was going on, and statement? Q. And so you were having this discussion so I told him. A. My reaction to the statement after I got with the President not knowing the extent of Q. Why did you make the judgment that over it was that—no way. Ms. Lewinsky’s fixation? you should call the President and advise him Q. Did it send off alarm bells in your mind A. Uh— of these facts? as to her relationship with the President? Q. Is that correct? A. I just thought he ought to know. He was A. I think it’s safe to say that she was not A. Correct. interested it—he was obviously interested in happy. Q. And, regardless, you wanted to see the it—and I felt some responsibility to tell him, Q. You’re speaking of Ms. Lewinsky? President that night, and so you went to see and I did. A. That’s the only person we’re talking him. And was he expecting you? Q. All right. And what was the President’s about, Congressman. A. I believe he was. response? Q. Now, based upon all of this, was it your Q. And did you have a conversation with A. He said thank you. conclusion the subpoena meant trouble? him alone? Q. Subsequent to your conversation with A. Beg your pardon? A. I did. the President about Monica Lewinsky, did Q. Based upon all of these facts and your Q. No one else around? you advise Ms. Lewinsky of this conversa- conversation with Ms. Lewinsky, was it your A. No one else around. tion with the President? conclusion that the subpoena meant trouble? Q. And I know that’s a redundant question. A. I doubt it. A. Well, I always, based on my experience A. It’s okay. Q. And if she indicates that she was not with the grand jury, believe that subpoenas Q. Now, would you describe your conversa- aware of that conversation, would you dis- are trouble. tion with the President? pute her testimony in that regard? Q. I think you’ve used the language, ‘‘ipso A. We were upstairs, uh, in the White A. I would not. facto’’ meant trouble? House. Mrs. Jordan—we came in by way of Q. And you say that you doubt it. Was A. Yes, yes, right. the Southwest Gate into the Diplomatic En- there a reason that you would not disclose to Q. Now, subsequent to your meeting with trance—we left the car there. I took the ele- her the fact that you talked to the President Ms. Lewinsky on this occasion, did you in vator up to the residence, and Mrs. Jordan when she was the subject of that conversa- fact set up an appointment with Mr. Frank went and visited at the party. And the Presi- tion? Carter? dent was already upstairs—I had ascertained A. No. I—I didn’t feel any particular obli- A. Yes—for the 22nd, I believe. that from the usher—and I went up, and I gation to tell her or not to tell her, but I did Q. Which I believe would have been the raised with him the whole question of not tell her. first part of the next week? Monica Lewinsky and asked him directly if Q. Now, we have discussed to a limited ex- A. That’s right. he had had sexual relations with Monica tent the gifts that were mentioned in the Q. And still on December 19th, after your Lewinsky, and the President said, ‘‘No, subpoena in this discussion that you had meeting with Ms. Lewinsky, did you subse- never.’’ with Ms. Lewinsky. Did she in fact tell you quently see the President of the United Q. All right. Now, during that conversa- about the gifts she had received from the States later that evening? tion, did you tell the President again that President? A. I did. Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed? A. I think she told me that she had re- Q. And is this when you went to the White A. Well, we had established that. ceived gifts from the President. House and saw the President? Q. All right. And did you tell him that you Q. Did she also indicate that there had A. Yes. were concerned about her fascination? been an exchange of gifts? Q. At the time that Ms. Lewinsky came to A. I did. A. She did. see you on December 19th, did you have any Q. And did you describe her as being emo- Q. And did you think that it was somewhat plans to attend any social function at the tional in your meeting that day? unusual that there had been an exchange of White House that evening? A. I did. gifts? A. I did not. Q. And did you relate to the President that A. Uh, a tad unusual, I thought. Q. And in fact there was a social invitation Ms. Lewinsky asked about whether he was Q. These— that you had at the White House that you going to leave the First Lady at the end of A. Which again occasioned the question. declined? the term? Q. Pardon? A. I had—I had declined it; that’s right. A. I did. A. Which again occasioned the ultimate Q. And subsequent to Ms. Lewinsky vis- Q. And as—and then, you concluded that question. iting you, did you change your mind and go with the question as to whether he had had Q. On—on whether there was a sexual rela- see the President that evening? sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky? tionship? A. After the—a social engagement that A. And he said he had not, and I was satis- A. That is correct. Mrs. Jordan and I had, we went to the White fied—end of conversation. Q. And so that was a significant fact in de- House for two reasons. We went to the White Q. Now, once again, just as I asked the termining whether that question should be House to see some friends who were there, question in reference to Ms. Lewinsky, it ap- asked? two of whom were staying in the White pears to me that this is an extraordinary A. It was an additional fact. House; and secondly, I wanted to have a con- question to ask the President of the United Q. Now, the subpoena also references ‘‘doc- versation with the President. States. What led you to ask this question to uments constituting or containing commu- Q. And this conversation that you wanted the President? nications between you’’—which would have to have with the President was one that you A. Well, first of all, I’m asking the ques- been Ms. Lewinsky under the subpoena— wanted to have with him alone? tion of my friend who happens to be the ‘‘and the Defendant Clinton, including let- A. That is correct. President of the United States. ters, cards, notes, et cetera.’’ Q. And did you let him know in advance Q. And did you expect your friend, the Did you ask Ms. Lewinsky at all whether that you were coming and wanted to talk to President of the United States, to give you a there were any kinds of cards or communica- him? truthful answer? tions between them? A. I told him I would see him sometime A. I did. A. Uh, I did not, but she may have volun- that night after dinner. Q. Did you rely upon the President’s an- teered that. Q. Did you tell him why you wanted to see swer in your decision to continue your ef- Q. And did she tell you about telephone him? forts to seek Ms. Lewinsky a job? conversations with the President? A. No. A. I believed him, and I continued to do A. She did tell me that she and the Presi- Q. Now, was this—once you told him that what I had been asked to do. dent talked on the telephone. you wanted to see him, did it occur the same Q. Well, my question was more did you rely Q. And did she express it in a way that it time that you talked to him while Ms. upon the President’s answer in your decision was frustrating because the President didn’t Lewinsky was waiting outside? to continue your efforts to seek Ms. call her sufficiently? A. It could be. I made it clear that I would Lewinsky a job. A. Well, that—that is correct, and she was come by after dinner, and he said fine. A. I did not rely on his answer. I was going disappointed, uh, and disapproving of the Q. Now, let me backtrack for just a mo- to pursue the job in any event. But I got the fact that she was not hearing from the Presi- ment, because whenever you talked to the answer to the question that I had asked Ms. dent of the United States on a regular basis. President, Ms. Lewinsky was not inside the Lewinsky earlier from her, and I got the an- Q. During this conversation with Ms. room— swer from him that night as to the sexual re- Lewinsky, she also made reference to the A. That’s correct. lationships, and he said no. First Lady? Q. —and therefore, you did not know the Q. It would appear to me that there’s two A. Yes. details about her questions on the President options. One, you asked the question in Q. And that was another question of con- might leave the First Lady and those ques- terms of idle conversation, and that does not cern when she asked if you thought that the tions that set off all of these alarm bells. seem logical in view of the fact that you

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1238 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 made a point to go and visit the President Q. Even though you did not tell her about Q. Now, I was looking at the testimony of about this alone. the conversation on December 19th that you Mr. Carter. Now, do you recall a meeting A. Yes. I never said that—I never talked had with the President in which you told the with Mr. Carter in his office while Ms. about options. I told you I went to ask him President she had been subpoenaed? Lewinsky waited outside, even if it might that question. A. If she had asked, I would have told her. have been a brief meeting? Q. Well, was it idle conversation, or was If she asked me on the 22nd, I answered yes. A. Yes, I think maybe I went in. I just there a purpose in you asking him that ques- Q. And did Ms. Lewinsky show you any don’t know—I was there for a very short tion? gifts that she was bringing to Mr. Frank Car- time. A. It obviously, Congressman, was not idle ter? Q. Did you explain to Mr. Carter that you conversation. A. Yeah—I’m not aware that Ms. Lewinsky were seeking Ms. Lewinsky a job at the re- Q. All right. showed me any gifts. I have no—I have no quest of the President? A. For him nor for me. recollection of her having shown me gifts A. No, I did not, but I think he knew that. Q. There was a purpose in it—and would given her by the President. And my best Q. And why do you think he knew that? you describe it as being important, the ques- recollection is that she came to my office, I A. I must have told him. tion that you asked to him? got myself together, and that we left. I have Q. So at some point, you believe that you A. I wanted to satisfy myself, based on my no recollection of her showing me gifts given told Mr. Carter that you were seeking Ms. visit with her, that there had been no sexual her by the President. Lewinsky a job at the request of the Presi- relationships, and he said no, as she had said Q. Would you dispute if she in fact had dent? no. gifts with her on that occasion? A. I think I may have done that. Q. And why was it important to you to sat- A. I don’t know whether she had gifts with Q. Now, you have referred other clients to isfy yourself on that particular point? her or not. I do have—I have no recollection Mr. Carter during your course of practice A. I had seen this young lady, and I had of her showing me, saying, ‘‘This is a gift here in Washington, D.C.? seen her reaction, uh, and it raised a pre- given me by the President of the United A. Yes, I have. sumption, uh, and I wanted to satisfy myself, States.’’ Q. About how many have you referred to as I had done with her, that there had been Q. And if she testifies that she showed you him? no sexual relationship between them. the gifts she was bringing Mr. Carter, you A. Oh, I don’t know. Maggie Williams is Q. If you had— would dispute that testimony? one client that I—I remember very defi- A. And I did satisfy myself. A. I have not any recollection of her show- nitely. Q. And if you had—well, let me rephrase it. ing me any gifts. I like Frank Carter a lot. He’s a very able If you believed the presumption, or if you Q. And I take that as not denying it— young lawyer. He’s a first-class person, a had evidence that Ms. Lewinsky did have MR. KENDALL: Objection to form. first-class lawyer, and he’s one of my new ac- sexual relations with the President, would BY MR. HUTCHINSON: quaintances amongst lawyers in town, and I this have affected your decision to act in the Q. —but that you have no recollection. like being around him. We have lunch, and A. Uh, I don’t know how else to say it to President’s interest in locating her a job he’s a friend. when she had been subpoenaed in a case ad- you, Mr. Congressman. Q. And is it true, though, that when you’ve Q. Well— verse to the President? referred other clients to Mr. Carter that you A. I have no recollection of Ms. Lewinsky A. I do not think it would have affected my never personally delivered and presented coming to my office and showing me gifts decision. that client to him in his office? given her by the President of the United Q. Now, you mentioned that you set up an A. But I delivered Maggie Williams to him States. appointment for Ms. Lewinsky at the office in my office. I had Maggie Williams to come Q. Let me go on. Did Ms. Lewinsky tell you of Frank Carter for December 22nd. to my office, and it was in my office that I that she and the President had had phone A. Right. introduced, uh, Maggie Williams to Mr. Car- sex? Q. Prior to that appointment with Mr. Car- A. I think Ms.—I know Ms. Lewinsky told ter, and she chose other counsel. I would ter, did Ms. Lewinsky come to see you in me about, uh, telephone conversations with have happily taken Maggie Williams to his your office? the President. If Ms. Lewinsky had told me office. A. I took Ms. Lewinsky from my office, in something about phone sex, I think I would Q. But this is the only occasion that you my Akin Gump, chauffeur-driven car, to have remembered that. took your Akin, Gump-chauffeured vehicle Frank Carter’s office. Q. And therefore, if she testifies that she and delivered the client to Mr. Carter in his Q. And when she arrived at your office, did told you that Ms. Lewinsky and the Presi- office? you have a discussion with her? dent had phone sex, then you’d simply deny A. It was. A. I think I got my coat, she got her—she her testimony in that regard? Q. Now, we’re not going to go through, had on her coat—and we left. A. I— probably to your relief, each day’s phone Q. While in your office before going to see MR. KENDALL: Object to the form. calls, but is it safe to say that Ms. Lewinsky Mr. Carter, did Ms. Lewinsky ask about her THE WITNESS: I have no recollection, called you regularly, both keeping you post- job? Congressman, of Ms. Lewinsky telling me ed on her interviews and contacts, but also A. Every conversation that I had with Ms. about phone sex—but given my age, I would asking you what you knew about her job de- Lewinsky had at some point to do with pend- probably have been interested in what that sires? ing employment. was all about. A. That is correct. Q. And I take that as a ‘‘yes’’ answer, but SENATOR THOMPSON: We’ll overrule the Q. And it is also true that during this proc- I would also refer you to page 184 of your pre- objection. It’s a leading question, but I think ess, you kept the President informed? vious testimony in which that answer was that it will be permissible for these purposes. A. That, too, is correct. ‘‘yes.’’ MR. HUTCHINSON: It’s my understanding, Q. And did the President ever give you any A. Yes. Senator, that under the Senate rule, that the other instruction other than to find Ms. Q. And so prior to going to see Mr. Carter, witness would be considered an adverse wit- Lewinsky a job in New York? you met with Ms. Lewinsky and—where she ness. A. I do not view the President as giving me asked about her job? SENATOR THOMPSON: That’s correct. instructions. The President is a friend of A. Well, as I’m putting on my coat, I mean, BY MR. HUTCHINSON: mine, and I don’t believe friends instruct we did not sit down and have a conference. Q. Well, I don’t mean to engage in disputes friends. Our friendship is one of parity and We had an appointment. over fine points, but I guess— equality. Q. Now, you last testified before the grand A. Well, you obviously, Congressman, have Q. Let me rephrase it, and that’s— jury in June of 1998, and you have not had Ms. Lewinsky saying one thing and me say- A. Thank you. the opportunity to address some issues that ing another. I stand by what I said. Q. That’s a fair comment that you cer- Ms. Lewinsky raised when she testified be- Q. Which is that you have no recollection tainly made. fore the grand jury in August of 1998, and I of that discussion taking place. Did you ever receive any other request would like to—there will be a number of A. But I do think that I would have re- from the President in reference to your deal- questions as we go through this today relat- membered it had it happened. ing with Monica Lewinsky other than the re- ing to some things that she testified to, be- Q. All right. Now, after your brief encoun- quest to find her a job in New York? cause it’s important that we hear your re- ter or meeting with Ms. Lewinsky in your of- A. That is correct. sponses to it, and so I’d like to ask you about fice, did you take Ms. Lewinsky in your vehi- MR. HUTCHINSON: I’ve been informed a couple of these particular areas. cle to Mr. Carter’s office? that there’s a few minutes left on the tape. During this meeting—and you say it was a A. Yes. Do you want to break? short meeting, that you really didn’t sit Q. And when you arrived at Mr. Carter’s of- THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. down—but during this time, did Ms. fice, did you meet with Mr. Carter in ad- SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. Let’s Lewinsky ask if you had told the President vance, while Ms. Lewinsky waited outside? take a 5–minute break at this point. that she had been subpoenaed in the Jones A. I said a brief hello to him. We talked Also, if it’s not objectionable to anyone, case? about lunch. I never took off my coat. I did let’s move a little closer to 1 o’clock, after A. She may have, and—and if she did, I an- take off my hat, because it was inside. And all, for lunch, if that’s okay. We have a con- swered yes. I left them, and I got a piece of his candy. ference that that will coincide with a little

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1239 better, but for right now, let’s take a 5– Q. And is the date December 31st? Q. And would have she mentioned the re- minute break. A. That is correct. tention or copies of some of that correspond- SENATOR DODD: Just before we do, just Q. And does it reflect the items that were ence on her computer in her apartment? to make it—and the admonition about consumed at that breakfast? A. She may have done that. these—these—this matter being in—con- A. It reflects the items that were paid for Q. And did you ask her a question, were fidential. at that breakfast. these notes from the President to you? SENATOR THOMPSON: Right. [Laughter.] A. I understood from our conversation that SENATOR DODD: And I’m going to restate BY MR. HUTCHINSON: she and the President had correspondence that over and over again today, so that peo- Q. Does it appear to you that this is a that went back and forth. ple understand the rules under which we’re breakfast for two people? Q. And did you make a statement to her, operating here, and this is confidential and A. The price suggests that it was a break- ‘‘Go home and make sure they’re not there’’? no one is to reveal anything they hear, ex- fast for two people. A. Mr. Hutchinson, I’m a lawyer and I’m a Q. All right. And the fact that there’s two cept to the people that was listed in Senator loyal friend, but I’m not a fool, and the no- coffees, there is one omelet, one English Thompson’s opening remarks. tion that I would suggest to anybody that muffin, one hot cereal, and can you identify SENATOR THOMPSON: Absolutely. they destroy anything just defies anything We’ll be in recess. from that what you ordinarily eat at break- that I know about myself. So the notion that THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the fast? I said to her go home and destroy notes is ri- A. What I ordinarily eat at breakfast var- end of Videotape Number 1 in the deposition diculous. ies. This morning, it was fish and grits. of Vernon E. Jordan, Jr. We are going off the Q. Well, I appreciate that reminder of eth- Q. All right. Now, Ms. Lewinsky in her tes- record at 11:35 a.m. ical responsibilities. It was— timony, I think, referenced as to what she [Recess.] A. No, it had nothing to do with ethics, as ate, which I believe would be confirmed in THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the be- much as it’s just good common sense, moth- this record. ginning of Videotape Number 2 in the deposi- er wit. You remember that in the South. Do you recall a meeting with Ms. tion of Vernon E. Jordan, Jr. We are going Q. And so—and let me read a statement Lewinsky at the Park Hyatt on December back on the record at 11:49 a.m. that she made to the grand jury on August 31st of— 6th, 1998. This is the testimony of Ms. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, Mr. A. If you— Hutchinson, and you have consumed an hour Lewinsky, referring to a conversation with Q. —1997? you at the Park Hyatt that, ‘‘She,’’ referring and 40 minutes. A. If you would refer to my testimony be- to Linda Tripp, ‘‘was my friend. I didn’t real- MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senator fore the grand jury when asked about a ly trust her. I used to trust her, but I didn’t Thompson. breakfast with Ms. Lewinsky on December trust her anymore, and I was a little bit con- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: 31st, I testified that I did not have breakfast cerned because she had spent the night at Q. Mr. Jordan, I was reminded that the last with Ms. Lewinsky on December 31st because my home a few times, and I thought—I told question I asked you received an answer that I did not remember having had breakfast Mr. Jordan. I said, ’Well, maybe she’s heard I didn’t, at least, understand, so I’m going to with Ms. Lewinsky on December 31st. It was some’—you know, I mean, maybe she saw reask that question, and the question that I not on my calendar. It was New Year’s Eve. some notes lying around, and Mr. Jordan had asked, I believe, was: Did you ever re- I have breakfast at the Park Hyatt Hotel said, ’Notes from the President to you?,’ and ceive any other request from the President three or four times a week if I am in town, I said, ’No. Notes from me to the President,’ in reference to your dealings with Ms. and so I really did not remember having and he said, ’Go home and make sure they’re Lewinsky other than the request to find her breakfast with Ms. Lewinsky. And that’s an not there.’’’ a job in New York? And I think your answer honest statement, I did not remember, and I was: That’s correct. And that confuses me a A. And, Mr. Hutchinson, I’m saying to you told that to the grand jury. that I never heard the name ‘‘Linda Tripp’’ little bit, so let me rephrase the question. It is clear, based on the evidence here, that Did you ever receive—not rephrase it, but until I read the Judge—Drudge Report. I was at the Park Hyatt on December 31st. Secondly, let me say to you that I, too, restate the question. Did you ever receive So I do not deny, despite my testimony be- any other request from the President in ref- have read Ms. Lewinsky’s testimony about fore the grand jury, that on December 31st that breakfast, and I can say to you, without erence to your dealings with Monica that I was there with Ms. Lewinsky, but I did Lewinsky other than the request to find her fear of contradiction on my part, maybe on testify before the grand jury that I did not her part, that the notion that I told her to go a job in New York? remember having a breakfast with her on A. I did not. home and destroy notes is just out of the that date, and that was the truth. question. Q. Now, let me go to December 31, 1997, in My recollection has subsequently been re- reference to another issue that Ms. Lewinsky Q. And so this is not a matter of you not freshed, and—and so it is—it is undeniable recalling whether that occurred or not— has testified about in her August grand jury that there was a breakfast in my usual appearance and in which you have not had A. I am telling you— breakfast place, in the corner at the Park Q. Well, let me— the opportunity to discuss in detail. Hyatt. I’m there all the time. A. —emphatically— Ms. Lewinsky has testified that she met Q. All right. And so—and that would be Q. Mr. Jordan, let me finish the question. you for breakfast at the Park Hyatt— with Ms. Lewinsky? A. Okay, all right. MR. HUNDLEY: Excuse me. I think you A. Yes. Q. Please, sir. misspoke yourself. You said ’97. Q. And so the—so your memory has been A. Okay. MR. HUTCHINSON: This is ’97, right? refreshed, and I appreciate the statement Q. It’s sort of important for the record. MR. HUNDLEY: It is? I apologize. that you just made. This is a statement by Ms. Lewinsky that MR. HUTCHINSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Let me go to that meeting with her and you flatly and categorically deny? Hundley. The years are confusing, but I be- ask whether during this occasion that you A. Absolutely. lieve this is December 31, 1997. met her for breakfast that there was a dis- Q. Now, you talked about ‘‘mother wit,’’ I BY MR. HUTCHINSON: cussion about Ms. Linda Tripp and Ms. think it was; that you knew at the time that Q. And Ms. Lewinsky has testified that she Lewinsky’s relationship with her and con- you had this discussion with Ms. Lewinsky met you for breakfast at the Park Hyatt, and versations with her. that these notes would have been covered by even specifically as to what she had for A. I also testified in my grand jury testi- the subpoena based upon your discussion of breakfast on that particular occasion when mony that I never heard the name ‘‘Linda that on December 19th? she met with you and as to the conversation Tripp’’ until such time that I saw the Drudge A. Ask that question again. that she had. Report. I did not have a conversation with Q. All right. This is a meeting on Decem- And I want to show you, in order to hope- Ms. Lewinsky at the breakfast at the Park ber 31st at the Park Hyatt. fully refresh your recollection, an exhibit Hyatt Hotel on December 31st about Linda A. Right. which I’m going to mark as the next exhibit Tripp. I never heard the name ‘‘Linda Q. A discussion about the notes, cor- number, which will be 6, I believe? Tripp,’’ knew nothing about Linda Tripp respondence between Ms. Lewinsky and the SENATOR THOMPSON: Yes. What— until I read the Drudge Report. President. MR. HUTCHINSON: And it’s in the binder Q. All right. And do you recall a discussion A. Right. as Exhibit 42. It is not there, but it is in the with Ms. Lewinsky at the Park Hyatt on this Q. You are aware, based upon your discus- binder as Exhibit 42. occasion in which there were notes discussed sion of the subpoena on December 19th, that SENATOR THOMPSON: Let’s take a mo- that she had written to the President? these were covered under the subpoena? ment so everyone can refer to that. A. I am certain that Ms. Lewinsky talked A. Yes. BY MR. HUTCHINSON: to me about notes. Q. And did you tell Ms. Lewinsky that you Q. Have you located that, Mr. Jordan? Q. On this occasion? need to make sure you tell your attorney, A. [Nodding head up and down.] A. Yes. Mr. Carter, and that these are turned over Q. And this receipt, is this a receipt for a Q. And would these have been notes that under the subpoena? charge that you had at the Park Hyatt on she would have sent to the President? A. What I did not tell her was to destroy December 31st? A. I think that there was—these notes had the notes. Whether I told her to give them to A. That’s an American Express receipt for to do with correspondence between Ms. Mr. Carter or not, I have no recollection of breakfast. Lewinsky and the President. that.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00041 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1240 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Q. But you knew at the time that these SENATOR THOMPSON: What is the grand [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 8 marked notes were a matter of evidence? jury number? for identification.] A. I think that’s a valid assumption. MR. HUTCHINSON: It’s 85, the grand jury [Witness perusing document.] Q. But you knew that? number. BY MR. HUTCHINSON: A. It’s a valid assumption. This will be Deposition Exhibit Number 7. Q. Now, Exhibit 8 is a summary of tele- Q. Now, during this meeting at the Park BY MR. HUTCHINSON: phone calls on January 6th, which would be Hyatt, did Ms. Lewinsky also make it clear Q. Now, Mr. Jordan, I think you’re review- the day before the affidavit was signed by to you that she was in love with the Presi- ing that. Ms. Lewinsky on the 7th. dent? This affidavit bears the signature on the Now, you can reflect on that for a moment, A. That, I had already concluded. last page of Monica S. Lewinsky, is that cor- but in reviewing these calls, it appears that Q. And if Ms.—now, was there anything rect? Mr. Carter was paging Ms. Lewinsky early else at the Park Hyatt at this meeting on A. Yes. on in the day, 11:32 a.m., and then at 3:26, December 31st that you recall discussing Q. And have you ever seen this signed affi- you had a telephone call with Mr. Carter for with Ms. Lewinsky? davit before? 6 minutes and 42 seconds. A. Job, work, in New York, in the private A. I don’t think so. And then there was—call number 6 was to sector. Q. Do you not recall that Ms. Lewinsky Ms. Lewinsky, which was obviously a 24–sec- Q. And that was the—was this a meeting brought this in and showed it to you? ond short call, and then a subsequent call for that was set up at her request or your re- A. She may have. almost 6 minutes at 3:49 p.m. to Ms. quest? Q. And I’d be glad to refresh you. I know Lewinsky. A. I’m certain it was at her request. I am that some of this— Was this last call for 5 minutes to Ms. fairly certain that I did not call Ms. A. Yeah, if it’s in the testimony, Congress- Lewinsky the call that you just referenced in Lewinsky and say will you join me at the man. which the draft affidavit was discussed? Park Hyatt for breakfast on December 31st, Q. Page 192 of your previous grand jury tes- A. I think that is correct. The 24–second on New Year’s Eve. timony. Is it your recollection that she call, I think, was voice mail. Q. All right. And did you also talk about showed this to you in a meeting in your of- Q. Was—was—pardon? her situation under the subpoena and the fice after she had signed it? A. Voice mail. fact that she was going to have to give testi- A. I stand by that testimony. Q. Certainly. mony, it looked like? Q. And so the date of that signature of Ms. And subsequent to your conversation with A. I am not Ms. Lewinsky’s lawyer, and I Lewinsky, is that January 7? Ms. Lewinsky for 5 minutes and 54 seconds, did not view it as my responsibility to give A. January 7th, 1998. did you have two calls to Mr. Carter, which Ms. Lewinsky advice and counsel. Q. All right. Now, whenever she presented would be No. 9 and 10? I had found her very able, competent coun- this signed affidavit to you, did you read it [Witness perusing document.] sel. sufficiently to know that it stated that Ms. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. Respectfully, I am simply asking wheth- Lewinsky did not have a sexual relationship BY MR. HUTCHINSON: er that was discussed. Q. Do you know why you would have been A. And I am simply saying to you, I did not with the President? A. I was aware that that was in the affi- calling Mr. Carter on three occasions, the provide her legal counsel. day before the affidavit was signed? Q. Okay. Was it discussed in—not in terms davit. Q. And I believe you previously testified A. Yeah. I—my recollection is—is that I of legal representation, but in terms of Mr. was exchanging or sharing with Mr. Carter Jordan to Monica Lewinsky about any emo- that you’re a quick reader and you skimmed it and familiarized yourself with it? what had gone on, what she had asked me to tional concerns she might have about pend- do, what I refused to do, reaffirming to him ing testimony? A. Skimmed it. Q. And prior to seeing the signed affidavit that he was the lawyer and I was not the A. I have no recollection of talking to her lawyer. I mean, it would be so presumptuous about pending testimony. that she brought to you, the day after it was signed, was there a time that Ms. Lewinsky of me to try to advise Frank Carter as to Q. Fair enough. Now, let’s go back to Mr. how to practice law. Carter’s representation of Ms. Lewinsky that called you concerning the affidavit and said that she had some questions about the draft Q. Would you have been relating to Mr. you referred to. Were you aware that Mr. Carter your conversations with Ms. Carter was preparing an affidavit for Ms. of the affidavit? A. Yes. I do recollect her calling me and Lewinsky? Lewinsky to sign in the Jones case? A. I may have. asking me about the affidavit, and I said to A. Yes. Q. And if Ms. Lewinsky expressed to you her that she should talk to the—talk to Q. And on or about the 6th or 7th of Janu- any concerns about the affidavit, would you Frank Carter, her counsel, about the affi- ary, did you become aware that she in fact have relayed those to Mr. Carter? davit and not to me. had signed the affidavit and that Mr. Carter A. Yes. had filed a motion to quash her subpoena in Q. And if I could go into, again, some areas Q. And if Mr. Carter was a good attorney the case? that had not been previously asked to you, that was concerned about the economics of A. She told me that she had signed the affi- and since Ms. Lewinsky testified to the law practice, he would have likely billed Ms. davit. grand jury on August 6th. Lewinsky for some of those telephone calls? Q. And did in fact Mr. Carter also relate to Ms. Lewinsky has testified that she A. You have to talk to Mr. Carter about his you that that had occurred? dropped a copy of the affidavit to you, and billing. A. Yes. that you—and that you and she had a tele- Q. It wouldn’t surprise you if his billing did Q. And I think you made a statement in phone conversation in which you discussed reflect a—a charge for a telephone conversa- your March grand jury testimony that there changes to the affidavit. Does this refresh tion with Mr. Jordan? was no reason for accountability, that he re- your recollection, and do you agree with Ms. A. Keep in mind that Mr. Carter spent assured me that he had things under control? Lewinsky’s recollection of a discussion on most of his time in being a legal services A. That is correct. I stand by that testi- changes in the affidavit? lawyer. I think his concentration is pri- mony. A. I do agree with the assumption—I mean, Q. And now, if you would, look at the next marily on service, rather than billing. I do agree with the statement that Ms. Q. But, again, based upon the conversa- exhibit, which is in that stapled bunch of ex- Lewinsky dropped the affidavit off and called tions you had with him, which sounds like hibits that have been provided to you. me up about the affidavit and was quite ver- conversations of substance in reference to MR. HUTCHINSON: This will be Exhibit bose about it, and I sort of listened and said No. 7, we’ll mark for your deposition. the affidavit, that it would be consistent to her, ‘‘You need to talk to Frank Carter.’’ with the practice of law if he charged for And, Senator, did we put Exhibit No. 6 in? She was not satisfied with that, and so she SENATOR THOMPSON: No, we didn’t. those conversations? kept talking and I kept doodling and listen- MR. HUTCHINSON: I would like to offer A. That’s a question you’d have to ask Mr. ing as she went on in sort of a, for lack of a that as an exhibit to this deposition. Carter. SENATOR THOMPSON: It will be made a better word, babble about this—about this Q. They were conversations of substance part of the record. thing, but it was not my job to advise her with Mr. Carter concerning the affidavit? [Jordan Deposition Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7 about an affidavit. I don’t do affidavits. A. And they were likely conversations marked for identification.] Q. Now, if I may show you, which would be about more than Ms. Lewinsky. [Witness perusing document.] Exhibit— Q. But the answer was yes, that they were SENATOR DODD: That is Number 6? MR. HUTCHINSON: First, let me go ahead conversations of substance in reference to MR. HUTCHINSON: Six. That’s the Park and offer 7. the affidavit? Hyatt. SENATOR THOMPSON: It’s made a part of A. Or at least a portion of them. SENATOR DODD: Oh, that is going to be the record. Q. In other words, other things might have Number 6, the Park Hyatt, not the— [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 7 received been discussed? MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. in evidence.] A. Yes. SENATOR THOMPSON: Now, what is 7? MR. HUTCHINSON: It’s part of the record. Q. In your conversation with Ms. Lewinsky MR. HUTCHINSON: Now, 7 is the affidavit And then go to Exhibit 8, which was prior to the affidavit being signed, did you in of Jane Doe Number 6, which in the—I think marked as Exhibit 39 as your previous grand fact talk to her about both the job and her everybody has found that in the book. jury testimony. concerns about parts of the affidavit?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1241 A. I have never in any conversation with A. Yes. SENATOR THOMPSON: I notice in the Ms. Lewinsky talked to her about the job, on Q. And in fact, the day after Ms. Lewinsky record here, counsel is informing me that it one hand, or job being interrelated with the signed the affidavit, you placed a personal is in the record, but there are several conversation about the affidavit. The affi- call to Mr. Ron Perelman of Revlon, encour- redactions. Is that correct? davit was over here. The job was over here. aging him to take a second look at Ms. MR. HUTCHINSON: That is correct, and Q. But the—in the same conversations, Lewinsky? for that reason—in fact, a number of these both her interest in a job and her discussions A. That is correct, based on the fact that summaries are not redacted in our form and about the affidavit were contained in the Ms. Lewinsky thought that her interview they’re redacted in the record, and we’d like same conversation? had not gone well, when in fact it had gone to have the opportunity to redact it in the A. As I said to you before, Counselor, she well. form of taking out the personal telephone was always interested in the job. Q. Okay. And in fact, Ms. Lewinsky had numbers. Q. Okay. And she was always interested in called you on a couple of occasions after the MR. KENDALL: Senator Thompson, if I the job, and so, if she brought up the affi- interview and finally got a hold of you and may be heard, my objection is—to this is a davit, very likely it was in the same con- told you she thought the interview went summary. We don’t know who did it. We versation? poorly? don’t know what it’s based on. A. No doubt. A. That’s correct. The witness has testified, and his testi- Q. And that would be consistent with your Q. And as a response to that information, mony is in the record, so far as his recollec- previous grand jury testimony when you ex- you did not call Mr. Halperin back, who you tion is refreshed. pressed that you talked to her both about had previously talked to about the issue, but I have no objection to original phone the job and her concerns about parts of the you called Mr. Perelman? records, but I do object to the summary. affidavit? A. That’s right. SENATOR THOMPSON: Counsel, could I A. That is correct. Q. Was there a reason that you called Mr. suggest that maybe you just make a ref- Q. Now, on January 7th, the affidavit was Perelman in contrast to Mr. Halperin? signed. Subsequent to this, did you notify erence specifically to where it is in the exist- A. Well, the same reason I would have ing record? I think it would serve your same anyone in the White House that the affidavit called you about a committee if you were in the Jones case had been signed by Ms. purpose and to keep you from having— chairman of it, as opposed to calling to a MR. HUTCHINSON: Sure. Lewinsky? member of the committee. SENATOR THOMPSON: —to go through A. Yeah. I’m certain I told Betty Currie, Q. All right. You wanted to go to the top? and I’m fairly certain that I told the Presi- and redact everything. Would that be satis- A. When it’s necessary. factory? dent. Q. And I remember a phrase you used. I Q. And why did you tell Betty Currie? MR. HUTCHINSON: I think that would be might not have it exactly right, but you satisfactory, and what I can do is that I can A. I’m—I kept them informed about every- don’t get any richer or more powerful than body else that was—everything else. There withdraw this exhibit and reference in the Mr. Perelman? transcript of this deposition that the exhibit was no reason not to tell them about that A. Certainly not much richer. is found in Table 35 of Senate record, Volume she had signed the affidavit. Q. Okay. And—and so you had a conversa- III, at page 161. Q. And why did you tell the President? tion with Mr. Perelman, and did you tell him A. The President was obviously interested SENATOR DODD: Let me just ask the something like, make it happen if it can hap- in her job search. We had talked about the House Manager, if I can as well. Are these pen? from the Senate record? I’m told that some affidavit. He knew that she had a lawyer. It A. I said, ‘‘This young lady’’—I mean, I of these are not from the Senate record, and was in the due course of a conversation. I think I said, ‘‘This young lady has been we’re kind of confined to the Senate record, would say, ‘‘Mr. President, she signed the af- interviewed. She thinks it did not go well. as I understand it. fidavit. She signed the affidavit.’’ Would you look into it?’’ MR. HUTCHINSON: Well, other than the Q. And what was his response when you in- Q. And what was his response? formed him that she had signed the affi- A. That he would look into it. redactions, this summary itself is in the Sen- davit? Q. Now I’d like to show you the next ex- ate record. A. ‘‘Thank you very much.’’ hibit, and before I do that, I would go back SENATOR THOMPSON: Yes. Q. All right. And would you also have been and offer Number 7. Counsel informs me, it’s already in. It re- giving him a report on the status of the job SENATOR THOMPSON: Seven is the last. fers to evidentiary record Volume IV. search at the same time? This would be Number 8 that you—that MS. BOGART: Is it IV or III? A. He may have asked about that, and— you have been discussing. The compilation of SENATOR THOMPSON: It says IV here, and part of her problem was that, you know, the telephone call record? Part 2 of—Part 2 of 3. she was—there was a great deal of anxiety MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. So, for the record, this would be pages 1884 about the job. She wanted the job. She was MR. KENDALL: I object. Same ground as and 1885 of the evidentiary record, Volume unemployed, and she wanted to work. before. It’s not best evidence. We don’t know IV, Part 2 of 3, all right? Q. Now, I think you indicated that he was who compiled these. These are not primary MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you. obviously concerned about—was it her rep- records. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. So the resentation and the affidavit? SENATOR THOMPSON: Mr. Jordan has record will be—the objection will be sus- A. I told him that I had found counsel for verified several of these items, but I do no- tained, and reference has been made. her, and I told him that she had signed the tice there are some items here that do not SENATOR DODD: And can we just—be- affidavit. have to do with Mr. Jordan, that we could cause I presume you may have more of these Q. Okay. You indicated that he was con- coming along, and it seems to me you might cerned, obviously, about something. What not expect him to be able to verify. So I would ask counsel, if he needs to iden- want to have staff or others begin to work so was he obviously concerned about in your tify any more of these conversations and use we don’t go through this every time, particu- conversations with him? this to reflect Mr. Jordan’s memory, he’s larly with the unredacted material that may A. Throughout, he had been concerned be included in here, which is not part of the about her getting employment in New York, free to do so, but as an exhibit, I think the objection is probably well taken. Senate record. period. The unredacted information comes out of Q. And he was also concerned about the af- MR. HUTCHINSON: Let me just state, Sen- the House record, as I understand, and that fidavit? ator, that this is a compilation of calls based A. I don’t know that that was concern. I upon the records that have been in the Sen- is a distinction. did tell him that the affidavit was signed. He ate record, and this has been—this compila- MR. HUNDLEY: I would just add that Mr. knew that she had counsel, and he knew that tion has been in there some time. Jordan—the last 3 days of his grand jury tes- I had arranged the counsel. Now, I, quite frankly, understand the ob- timony, they asked him about every phone Q. Do you know whether or not the Presi- jection, and it might have meritorious if this call, and if you want to use those, you know, dent of the United States ever talked to her was being introduced into evidence in the ac- go to his grand jury testimony, you know, I counsel, Mr. Carter? tual trial, and so I would suggest perhaps, think it would move things along. A. I have—I have no knowledge of that. since he’s identified most of the calls al- There isn’t a phone call. We produced like Q. Did you ever relate to Mr. Carter that ready, that this could be referenced as a dep- a telephone book of phone calls that Mr. Jor- you were having discussions with the Presi- osition exhibit because he’s referred to it and dan made, and they called them all out, after dent concerning his representation of Ms. that’s helpful, without—obviously, there they got through asking about who’s that, Lewinsky and whether she had signed the af- might in a more—it might not be entered who’s that and who’s the—you’ve got a pret- fidavit? into evidence as such. ty good record of calls that might have some A. I don’t know whether I told him that SENATOR THOMPSON: Could I ask you if relevance in this. she had—he had—I don’t know whether I told it’s been in the record as a compilation? SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir. All Mr. Carter that I told the President he had MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes, it has. right. signed the affidavit. It is—it is not beyond SENATOR THOMPSON: In this form? I no- SENATOR DODD: Let me also just suggest reasonableness. tice that it has a grand jury— on the earlier—Senator Thompson, in the Q. Now let’s go on. After the affidavit was MR. HUTCHINSON: It’s—Senator, it’s Vol- earlier objection raised by Counsel Kendall, signed, were you ultimately successful in ob- ume III of the Senate record, page 161, and so sustained the objection, but had made ref- taining Ms. Lewinsky a job? it’s all in there, anyway. erence to the fact that since this material

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1242 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 had been brought into the record that you recall what you would have told her at A. ‘‘Fini.’’ those—if any documentation is included that time? Q. ‘‘Fini.’’ And so that was the basis on the there, that we—we do use the Senate docu- A. I think I told her that I had spoken question, was your previous testimony that ments with the redacted information, rather with, uh—with, uh, Mr. Perelman, the chair- after you got Ms. Lewinsky a job and after than the House records for the purposes of man, and that I was hopeful that things you secured her attorney, there was really this deposition. would work out. no other need for involvement or continued SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir. Q. All right. And, in fact, they did work meetings with her? MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you. out because the next day you were informed A. That is correct. That does not mean, on SENATOR THOMPSON: Proceed. that a temporary job—or a preliminary job the other hand, that, uh, if you go to a meet- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: offer had been made to Ms. Lewinsky? ing at the board, that you don’t stop in and Q. And I will handle it this way, Mr. Jor- A. That’s right. see how—how people are doing. In this cir- dan, and let me say that I was sort of con- Q. So she was able to secure the job based cumstance, that process was short-circuited structing my questioning, so as not to get upon your call to Mr. Perelman? very quickly. bogged down in an extraordinary number of A. Based upon my call, from the time that Q. I’m sorry? telephone calls, but let me go to the chart in I called Halperin through to Mr. Perelman. A. She never ended up working there. front of you which is Grand Jury Exhibit 44, Q. All right. You—you—you do remember that. which is marked for our purposes as Exhibit A. I take credit for that. Q. Now, but you had described your fre- 9 for identification purposes. Q. All right. Now, in fact, you’ve used quent telephone calls from Ms. Lewinsky as [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 9 marked terms like ‘‘the Jordan magic worked’’? being bordering on annoyance, I think. Is for identification.] A. It—it has from time to time. that a fair characterization? [Witness perusing document.] Q. And it did on this occasion? A. That’s a fair characterization. BY MR. HUTCHINSON: A. I believe so. Q. And you’re a busy man. You stopped Q. And I’m going to—I’d like for you to Q. And then, you also informed Ms. Betty billing at $450 an hour. You’re having calls refer that—refer you to that for purposes of Currie that the mission was accomplished? from Ms. Lewinsky. Were you glad at this putting this particular day, January 8th, in A. Yes. point to have this ‘‘bordering on annoyance’’ context and asking you some questions Q. And after securing the job for Ms. situation completed? about some of those telephone calls. Lewinsky, you did inform Betty Currie of A. ‘‘Glad’’ is probably the wrong word. SENATOR THOMPSON: I’m sorry. What that fact? ‘‘Relieved’’ is maybe a better word. was the question? Are you making reference A. And the President. Q. All right. Now, during the time that you for identification purposes? Q. All right. And was the purpose of letting were helping Ms. Lewinsky secure a job, this MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. This is Exhibit 9, Betty Currie know so that she could tell the was widely known at the White House, is which is Grand Jury Exhibit 44. President? that correct? SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, for iden- A. She saw the President much more often A. I—I don’t know the extent to which it tification purposes. that I did. was widely known. I dealt with Ms. Currie MR. HUTCHINSON: Yes. Q. And—but you wanted to inform the and with the President. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. President personally that you were success- Q. In fact, Ms. Cheryl Mills, sitting here at BY MR. HUTCHINSON: ful in getting Ms. Lewinsky a job? counsel table, knew that you were helping Q. Now, this is the day, January 8th, which A. Yes. Ms. Lewinsky? is the day that Ms. Lewinsky felt like she Q. And you did that, uh—was it on the— A. I believe that’s true. had a poor job interview. Does this reflect what, the day after she secured the job or the Q. And Betty Currie knew that you were calls from the Peter Strauss residence to day—the day that she secured the job? helping Ms. Lewinsky? your office? A. I don’t know the answer to that. A. Yes. A. I see a call number 3, 11:50 a.m., Peter Q. Well, shortly thereafter is it fair to say Q. The President knew it? Strauss residence. The number is here to my that you informed the President personally? A. Yes. office. A. I certainly told him. Q. And you presumed that Bruce Lindsey Q. All right. Q. All right. Now, at this point, you had knew it? A. And it says length of call, one minute. successfully obtained a job for Ms. Lewinsky A. I presumed that. That’s a very small Q. All right. And, in fact, calls 3, 4 and 5 at the request of the President, and you had number, given the number of people who and 9 are calls from the Peter Strauss resi- been successful in obtaining an attorney for work at the White House. dence to your office? Ms. Lewinsky. Did you see your responsibil- Q. Now, after that December 19 meeting— A. That is correct. ities in regard to Ms. Lewinsky as con- and I’m backtracking a little bit—the meet- Q. And Peter Strauss is the residence in tinuing or completed? ing that you had with Ms. Lewinsky in which which Ms. Lewinsky was staying while in A. I don’t know, uh, that I saw them as, uh, she covered with you the fact that she had New York? necessary completed. There is—as you know A. I just know that Peter Strauss, my old been subpoenaed, after that, you had numer- from your own experience in helping young friend, is Monica Lewinsky’s stepfather. ous conversations with Ms. Betty Currie; is people with work, there tends to be some MR. HUNDLEY: But he wasn’t there. that correct? sense of responsibility to follow through, THE WITNESS: You know, where she was A. I’m not sure I had numerous conversa- that they get to work on time, that they and all of that, I don’t know. I’m just— tions with Ms. Betty Currie, but I have al- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: work hard, and that they succeed. So I don’t ways during this administration been in Q. You received calls from Ms. Lewinsky think that I felt that my responsibility had touch with Ms. Currie. on this particular day? terminated. I felt like I had a continuing re- Q. And during those conversations with A. From this number, according to this sponsibility to just make sure that it hap- Ms. Betty Currie, did you let her know that piece of paper. pened and that she—that it worked out all Ms. Lewinsky had been subpoenaed? Q. And does this time reference coincide right. But I don’t think I acted on that re- A. I think I’ve testified to that. with your recollection as to when you re- sponsibility. Q. All right, and so would that have been ceived calls from Ms. Lewinsky on this par- Q. Well, this is—the job was completed—I fairly shortly after the meeting on December ticular day? believe it was January 8th when she secured 19th with Ms. Lewinsky that you notified A. Yes. the job? Betty Currie that Ms. Lewinsky had in fact Q. And during these calls is when she re- A. That was the day that I called Ronald been subpoenaed? lated the difficulty of the job interview; is Perelman. A. I—I think that’s safe to say, Counselor. that correct? Q. Okay, so it would have been the 9th that MR. HUTCHINSON: Senator, I—this would A. I believe so—that it had not gone well. she would have been informed that she had be a good time for a break, if that would Q. All right. And then, subsequently, you the job. meet with your approval, for lunch. put in a call to Mr. Perelman at Revlon? A. That’s right. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir. A. Yes. Q. So this is the 9th of January, and that MR. HUTCHINSON: And I’m—it’s hard to Q. And that was to encourage him to take mission had been accomplished. Now, I want estimate, and you probably don’t trust law- a second look. Is that call number 6 on this you to recall your testimony of May 28th be- yers when they tell you how long it’s going summary? fore the grand jury in which the question to take after lunch, but— A. Call number 6; it lasted one minute and was asked to you—and this is at page 81; the SENATOR THOMPSON: Try your best. Do 42 seconds. question begins at the bottom of page 80. you want to make an estimate, or you’d Q. And is that the call that you placed to Question: ‘‘When you introduced Monica rather not? Mr. Perelman? Lewinsky to Frank Carter on December 22, MR. HUTCHINSON: Oh, I think it would be A. I believe that is correct. 1997, what further involvement did you ex- less than an hour that I would have remain- Q. And this was subsequent to the calls pect to have with Monica Lewinsky and ing, and most likely much shorter than that. that you received from Ms. Lewinsky? Frank Carter?’’ SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir. A. That is correct. Answer: ‘‘Beyond getting her the job, I THE WITNESS: May I make a suggestion? Q. And then you let Ms. Lewinsky know thought it was finished, done’’—and what’s It’s 25 minutes to 1. Do you want to go to 1 that you had called Mr. Perelman; and do that last word you used? o’clock?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1243 MR. HUTCHINSON: I think a break would you consider yourself a friend of Cheryl A. Ms. Currie called me. be helpful. Mills? Q. And did she explain to you why she THE WITNESS: To you or to me? A. That requires more than just a ‘‘yes’’ needed to see you? [Laughter.] answer. A. Yes, she did. SENATOR THOMPSON: I think some of us Q. I do not want to shortchange her, but I Q. And was that that she had a call from have some scheduling issues, and I do under- know that—in fact, I think you might have, Michael Isikoff of Newsweek magazine? stand that, so I’m open to any suggestions, to a certain extent, mentored her. Is that a A. That is correct. Senator Dodd or anyone else, as to how long fair description? Q. And what did she say about that that we want to take. Yesterday, they took an A. And vice versa. caused her to call you? hour. I’m not—we have a conference and I Q. All right. And Bruce Lindsey, is he also A. She had said that Mr. Isikoff had called could use a little extra time, I suppose, in a friend of yours? her and wanted to interview her, having addition to the hour, but it’s not of major A. Yes. something to do with Monica Lewinsky, and concern to me. Q. Now—so when was the last time that I said to her, why don’t you come to see me. I assume you want to get back as soon as you met with any member of the President’s Q. And why did you ask her to come see possible. defense team? you, rather than just talking to her about it THE WITNESS: I’m prepared to forgo A. I have not had a meeting with a member over the telephone? lunch and stay here as long as need be so we of the President’s defense team. They were A. I felt more comfortable doing that, and can finish. And we don’t have to have lunch; right nextdoor to me just a few minutes ago, I think she felt comfortable or more com- we can just keep going, if it’s all right with and we said hello, but we have not had a fortable doing that, rather than doing it on counsel. meeting. And maybe if you’d tell me about the telephone. And so I asked her to come to SENATOR THOMPSON: Well, we’ve got what, I can be more specific. my office, and she did. some scheduling issues that we are going to Q. Well—and that’s a good point. Cer- Q. Did you consider—or did she seem upset have to take care of. So let’s just make it— tainly, we’re lawyers, and we have casual at the time that she called? let’s just make it— conversations, and we visit and we exchange A. I think she was concerned. Q. And as—you did in fact meet with her in SENATOR DODD: That clock is a little pleasantries, and that’s the way life should your office? fast, I think. be. A. I did. SENATOR THOMPSON: Is it? I guess I was more specifically going to the Q. And what did she relate to you in your SENATOR DODD: Is that right? It’s about question as to whether you have discussed 12:30? office? with the President’s defense team any mat- A. That Michael Isikoff was a friend of THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It’s 12:35. ter of substance relating to the present pro- SENATOR DODD: So an hour and 15 min- hers, and that Michael Isikoff had called to— ceedings in the United States Senate. pursuant to a story that he was about to utes. Is that— A. Any matter of substance relating to write having to do with Ms. Lewinsky, and SENATOR THOMPSON: What about—what these proceedings here in the United States she—she was concerned about what to do. about—let’s come back at 1:45. That will be Senate have been handled very ably by my And I suggested to her that she talk to Bruce about, what—that’s an hour and 10 minutes, lawyer, Mr. William Hundley. Lindsey and to Mike McCurry as to what she isn’t it, or 8 minutes, something like that? Q. And I understand that, but my question should do, Bruce Lindsey on the legal side All right. Without objection, then— is—despite your able representation by Mr. and Mike McCurry on the communications SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Senator, we have Hundley—my question is—is whether you lunch outside here. It’s sandwiches— side. had any meetings or discussions with the Q. Did she explain to you what it was spe- SENATOR DODD: Can we go off the President’s defense team in regard to these record? cifically that Mr. Isikoff was inquiring about proceedings. in reference to Ms. Lewinsky? SENATOR THOMPSON: Are we off the A. The answer is no. record? Let’s go off the record. A. No. I don’t remember the exact nature Q. Thank you. of Isikoff’s inquiry. What I do remember is THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the And has anyone briefed you other than that Isikoff, a Newsweek magazine reporter, record now at 12:33 p.m. your attorney, Mr. Hundley, on yesterday’s had called and was making these inquiries, [Whereupon, at 12:33 p.m., a luncheon re- deposition of Ms. Lewinsky? and she was at a loss as to where to turn or cess was taken.] A. The answer is no. to what to do, and I think that stemmed AFTERNOON SESSION Q. Now, you know Greg Craig? from the fact of some White House policy THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back A. I do know Greg Craig. saying that before you talk to anybody in on the record at 1349 hours. Q. And he’s a member of the President’s the media, you check it out. SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. Mr. defense team as well? Q. And did she explain to you that she had Hutchinson? A. Yes. already seen Bruce Lindsey about it before MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Senators. Q. And you have not had any meetings of she came to see you? DIRECT EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS— substance with him in regard to the present A. She did not. RESUMED proceedings? Q. And so you were basically telling her to A. I have not. BY MR. HUTCHINSON: see Bruce Lindsey, and if she had already Q. And have you had any meetings with Q. Mr. Jordan, good afternoon. seen that, then that might have not been any of the President’s defense team in regard A. Good afternoon. that helpful? to not just the present proceedings, but prior Q. You testified very clearly earlier today A. I don’t know whether I was being help- proceedings related to your testimony before that you were a close friend of the President. ful or not. I responded to her, and I gave her the grand jury or the investigation by the Would you also describe yourself as a friend the advice to call Bruce Lindsey and to call OIC? of Mr. Kendall, sitting to my left, one of the Mike McCurry. attorneys for the President? A. I have had conversations with the Presi- Q. Let me refer you to the testimony of A. Not only is Mr. Kendall my friend, Mr. dent’s lawyer, Mr. Bennett, and a conversa- Ms. Betty Currie, and perhaps that will help Kendall has, unfortunately, the distinction tion or two with Mr. Kendall on the issue of refresh you, and if not, perhaps you can re- of graduating from Wabash College, a little, settlement of the Paula Jones case, and I be- spond to it. small town in Indiana, and I’m a graduate of lieve I testified to that before the grand jury. A. Sure. DePauw University, and we have a 100–year Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Jordan, and Q. And for reference purposes, I’m referring rivalry. And Mr. Kendall and I bet. now let me move to another area. to the grand jury testimony of Ms. Betty Mr. Hutchinson, I am pleased to tell you Do you recall an occasion in which Ms. Currie on May 6th, 1998, at page 122. that Mr. Kendall is in debt to me for 2 years Betty Currie came to see you in your office MR. HUTCHINSON: Is there a way I— because DePauw— a few days before the President’s deposition MR. HUNDLEY: We don’t have that. If you MR. KENDALL: May I object? in the Jones case on January 17th? want to—if you want us to read along or [Laughter.] A. Yes, I do. just— THE WITNESS: —because DePauw Univer- Q. And I believe you have previously indi- THE WITNESS: Wait a minute. I might sity has defeated Wabash College two times cated that it was on a Thursday or Friday, have it right here. What page? in succession. And so, yes, we are very good which would have been around the 15th or MR. HUTCHINSON: What’s the exhibit friends. I have great respect for him as a per- 16th? number? son, as a lawyer, and despite his under- A. Yeah. I’ve testified to that specifically MR. HUNDLEY: How long is it, Mr. Hutch- graduate degree from Wabash, I respect his as to the date in my grand jury testimony, inson? intellect. and I stand on that testimony. MR. HUTCHINSON: This would just be BY MR. HUTCHINSON: Q. Certainly. But in general fashion, it some short question-and-answers. Q. May I assume from that answer that the would have been a couple of days before the MR. HUNDLEY: Why don’t you just read answer to my question is yes? President’s testimony on January 17th? it? We don’t—go ahead. A. The answer—the answer to your ques- A. I believe that is correct, sir. THE WITNESS: Oh, fine. tion is, indubitably, yes. Q. And did—was this meeting with Betty BY MR. HUTCHINSON: Q. Now I am going to ask another question Currie originated by a telephone call with Q. I’m going to read it, and if there’s—it’s in similar vein. You can answer yes or no. Do Ms. Betty Currie? at page 122, but this just puts it in context.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1244 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 The question: ‘‘Ms. Currie, if I’m not mis- SENATOR DODD: And you’ll withdraw A. I assumed that she took my advice. taken, if I could ask you a couple of ques- your objection as of right now, or— Q. Did she discuss in any way with you the tions. When you found out Mr. Isikoff was MR. KENDALL: Yes. I’ll withdraw it until incident on December 28th when she re- curious about the courier receipts, you were I can scrutinize the pages, but I may then trieved the gifts— concerned enough to go visit Vernon Jor- renew it. A. She did not. dan?’’ SENATOR THOMPSON: All right, sir. Q. —from Ms. Lewinsky? The answer is: ‘‘Correct.’’ BY MR. HUTCHINSON: A. She did not. And I’m skipping on down. I’m trying to Q. On—there’s been some testimony in this Q. Now, a few days later, the President of point to a couple of things that are of inter- case by Ms. Lewinsky that on December the United States testified before the grand est. 28th, there was a gift exchange with the jury in the—excuse me—testified in his depo- And question: ‘‘And you went to Bruce President; that subsequent to that, Ms. sition in the Jones case. Lindsey because you said you knew that he Currie went out and picked up gifts from Ms. After the President’s deposition, did he was working on the matter?’’ Lewinsky, and she put those gifts under Ms. have a conversation with you on that day? And question: ‘‘What did Bruce tell you Currie’s bed. Are you familiar with that A. Yes. I’m sure we talked. after you told him this?’’ basic scenario? Q. And then, on the next day, and without And answer: ‘‘He told me not to call him A. I read about it and heard about it. I do getting into the entire record of telephone back, referring to Mr. Isikoff, make him not know that because that was told to me calls, there was, is it fair to say, a flurry of work for the story. I remember that.’’ by Ms. Lewinsky or by Ms. Currie. telephone calls in which everyone was trying And then she refers to going to see Mr. Jor- Q. Certainly, and I’m just setting that to locate Ms. Monica Lewinsky? dan. forth as a backdrop for my questioning. A. The next day being which day? Why did you tell him, or, ‘‘Why did you Now, you know, I guess it’s—it might be Q. The next day would have been—well, call Mr. Jordan?’’ difficult to understand a great deal of con- January 18th. Answer: ‘‘Because I had a comfort level cern about a news media call, but if that A. That’s Sunday. with Vernon, and I wanted to see what he news media call was about gifts or evidence Q. Correct. had to say about it.’’ that was in fact under Ms. Currie’s bed or in- MR. HUNDLEY: I think it’s the 19th. THE WITNESS: I think it’s the 19th when MR. KENDALL: Counsel, excuse me. I ob- volved in that exchange, then that would be there was a flurry of calls. ject to your reading of that, but my under- a little heightened concern. MR. HUTCHINSON: I think you’re abso- standing that the conversation with Bruce A. Yes. lutely correct. Lindsey occurred later. Are you representing Q. Would that seem fair? THE WITNESS: We’ll be glad to be helpful that it occurred before the visit to Mr. Jor- A. I do not, as I’ve said to you, know spe- to you in any way we can. dan? I don’t have the transcript in front of cifically the nature of Mr. Isikoff’s inquiry MR. HUNDLEY: We’re even now. I was me. to Ms. Currie, and I know nothing at that wrong on one. You were wrong. MR. HUTCHINSON: Well, I’m—I’m not particular time about Mr. Isikoff making an MR. HUTCHINSON: That’s fair enough, making a representation one way or the inquiry about gifts under the bed. fair enough. other. I’m just representing what Ms. Currie Q. All right. I refer you to your grand jury BY MR. HUTCHINSON: testified to, and that is the context of it, testimony of March 5, 1998, at page 73, when Q. And on the 19th—of course, the 18th is in that the visit to Mr. Lindsey was prior to the question was asked of you about Ms. Cur- the record where the President visited with going to see Mr. Jordan. And that is at page rie’s visit to you, ‘‘What exactly did she tell Ms. Betty Currie at the White House—on the 122 through 130 of Betty Currie’s transcript you?’’ and your answer: ‘‘She told me that 19th, which would have been Monday, was of May 6th, 1998. she had a call from Isikoff from Newsweek there on that day a flurry of activity in BY MR. HUTCHINSON: magazine, who was calling to make inquiries which there were numerous telephone calls, Q. But the first question, Mr. Jordan, is about Monica Lewinsky and some taped con- trying to locate Monica Lewinsky? that she refers to courier receipts. I believe versations, and I said you have to talk to A. Yes. And you have a record of those that was referring to courier records of gifts Mike McCurry and you have to talk to Bruce telephone calls, and those telephone calls, from Ms. Lewinsky to the President. Lindsey.’’ Congressman, were driven by two events— Did Ms. Currie come to you and say specifi- And so, despite your statement today that first, the Drudge Report; and later in the cally that Mr. Isikoff was inquiring about you have no recollection as to what she told afternoon, driven by the fact that, uh, I had courier records on gifts from Ms. Lewinsky you, going back to your March testimony, been informed by Frank Carter, counsel to to the President? you referred to her relating Isikoff inquiring Ms. Lewinsky, that he had been relieved of A. I have no recollection of her telling me about taped conversations. his responsibilities as her counsel. And that about the specific inquiry that Isikoff was A. And that’s what it says, ‘‘taped con- is the basis for these numerous telephone making. The issue for her was whether or not versations,’’ and I stand by that. calls. she should see him, and I said to her, before What was taped, I don’t know. Q. And you yourself were engaged in some she made any decision about that, that she Q. Well, I don’t think you previously today of those telephone calls trying to locate Ms. should talk to these two particular people on mentioned taped conversations. Lewinsky? the White House staff. MR. HUNDLEY: Well, I don’t really think A. Oh, yes, to ask her—I mean, I had just Q. Well, again, if Ms. Currie refers to the your question would have called for that re- found out that she had been involved in courier receipts on gifts, would that be in sponse, but I’m not going to object. these conversations with this person called conflict in any way with your recollection as MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Mr. Linda Tripp, and that was of some curiosity to what Mr. Isikoff was inquiring about, Hundley. and concern to me. what Ms. Currie told you? BY MR. HUTCHINSON: Q. And you had heard Ms. Tripp’s name A. I stand on what I’ve just said to you. Q. I’m trying to get to the heart of the previously on December 31st at the Park Q. Now, you followed this case, and, of matter. Ms. Currie is concerned enough that Hyatt? course— she leaves the White House and goes to see A. I’ve testified already that I never heard SENATOR THOMPSON: While we’re on Mr. Vernon Jordan, and she raises an issue the name ‘‘Linda Tripp’’ until I saw the that subject, does counsel need any addi- with you and, according to your testimony, Drudge Report. I did not testify that I heard tional time to look over that? I don’t want you told her simply, you need to go see Mike the name ‘‘Linda Tripp’’ on December 31st. to leave an objection on the record. If you McCurry or Bruce Lindsey. Q. So the first time you heard Ms. Tripp’s feel like you need to press it— A. That is correct. name was on January 19th when the Drudge SENATOR DODD: Do you have a copy of Q. And it’s your testimony that she never Report came out? the document? raised with you any issue concerning the— A. That is correct. MR. KENDALL: Senator Thompson, we Mr. Isikoff inquiring about gifts and records Q. And you had already secured a— don’t have the full copy of the Currie tran- of gifts by Ms. Lewinsky? A. The 18th, I believe it was. script. This was not— A. I stand by what I—what you just read to MR. HUNDLEY: Eighteenth. SENATOR THOMPSON: Why don’t we re- me about—from my testimony about tapes THE WITNESS: Not the 19th. serve this, then, and you can be looking at conversations. I have no recollection about BY MR. HUTCHINSON: it, and then we’ll—we’ll take it up a little gifts or gifts under the bed. Q. Thank you. later. Q. Okay. Are you saying it did not happen, You had already secured a job for Ms. MR. KENDALL: We’re still actually miss- or you have no recollection? Lewinsky? ing some pages of the transcript. I don’t A. I certainly have no recollection of it. A. That is correct. know if somebody has that. Q. Well, do you have a specific recollection Q. And you— SENATOR DODD: Why don’t you see if you that it did not happen, that she never raised A. Found a lawyer. can’t get them for them? the issue of gifts with you? Q. And a lawyer. And, as you had said at SENATOR THOMPSON: Okay. A. It is my judgment that it did not hap- one point, job finished—fini. Why is it that SENATOR DODD: All right? pen. you felt like you needed to join in the search SENATOR THOMPSON: We’ll let them be Q. Did she seem satisfied with your advice for Ms. Lewinsky? doing that, if that’s okay with everyone to go see Mr. Bruce Lindsey, who she pre- A. If you had been sitting where I was, and and— sumably had already seen? all of a sudden you found out, after getting

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1245 her a job and after getting her a lawyer, that Q. It would have been after all of the public to assume that Ms. Lewinsky believed that there’s a report that says that she’s been— issues— you had apparent authority on behalf of the she’s been taped by some person named A. It was after— President of the United States? Linda Tripp, I think just, mother wit, com- Q. —came up? A. I think I know enough about the law to mon sense, judgment, would have suggested A. —I returned from Washington, and it say that the law of agency is not applicable that you would be interested in what that may have been—from New York—and it may in this situation where there was a potential was about. have been, I think, Wednesday afternoon. romance and not a work situation. I think Q. And were you trying to provide assist- Q. Now, in this statement, you indicated the law of agency has to do with a work situ- ance to the President of the United States in that you referred Ms. Lewinsky for inter- ation and an employment situation and not trying to locate Ms. Lewinsky? views at American Express and at Revlon. having to do with some sort of romance. I A. I was not trying to help the President of A. That is correct, and Young & Rubicam. think that’s right. the United States. At that point, I was try- Q. And in fact, as your testimony today in- Q. Well, let me take it out of the legal ing to satisfy myself as to what had gone on dicates, you did more than refer her for realm. with this person for whom I had gotten both interviews, did you not? A. You raised it—I didn’t. a job and a lawyer. A. Explain what you mean, and I’ll be Q. And let’s put it in the realm of mother Q. Now, subsequent to this, you felt it nec- happy to answer. wit. Ms. Lewinsky is looking to you as a essary to make a public statement on Janu- Q. Well, in fact, when the interview went friend of the President of the United States, ary 22 in front of the Park Hyatt Hotel? poorly, according to Ms. Lewinsky, you knowing that you’re acting at the behest of A. I did make a public statement on Janu- made calls to get her a second interview and the President of the United States. Is it not ary 22nd at the Park Hyatt Hotel. to make it happen. reasonable to assume that when she commu- Q. And what was the reason that you gave A. That is safe to say. nicates something to you or she hears some- Q. All right. And I think you’ve also de- this public statement? thing from you, that it’s as if she is talking scribed your involvement in the job search A. I gave the public statement because I to someone who is acting for the President? was being rebuked and scorned and talked as running the job search? A. No. When she’s talking to me, she’s A. Yes. about, sure as you’re born, and I felt some talking to me, and I can only speak for me Q. And so it was a little bit more than sim- need to explain to the public what had hap- and act for me. ply referring her for interviews. Is that a fair pened. MR. HUTCHINSON: Could I have just a MR. HUTCHINSON: All right. And I have a statement? A. That’s a fair statement. moment? copy of that public statement that is marked Q. And then, in this statement, you also in- SENATOR THOMPSON: Yes. as Grand Jury Exhibit 87, but we will mark dicate that ‘‘Ms. Lewinsky was referred to MR. HUTCHINSON: At this time, Your it as Exhibit— me by Ms. Betty Currie’’—— Honors, the House Managers would reserve SENATOR THOMPSON: Seven, I believe. A. Yes. the balance of its time. SENATOR DODD: We’ve gone through 9, Q. —is that correct? SENATOR THOMPSON: Counsel? haven’t we? You’re marking it. If you’re only A. That is correct. MR. HUNDLEY: Fine. marking it, I think we— Q. And in fact, you were acting, as you SENATOR THOMPSON: All right. SENATOR THOMPSON: We have six exhib- stated, at the behest of the President? MR. HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Mr. Jor- its, didn’t we? A. Through Ms. Currie. I’m satisfied with dan. SENATOR DODD: We’ve done more than this statement as correct. THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Hutch- that, haven’t we? Q. So—but you were acting in the job inson. MR. HUTCHINSON: I have nine. search at the behest of the President, as you SENATOR THOMPSON: Mr. Kendall? SENATOR DODD: Nine. Did you enter 9, or have previously testified? EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PRESIDENT did you just note it? A. I’ve testified to that. BY MR. KENDALL SENATOR THOMPSON: Six were entered, MR. HUTCHINSON: Now, we would offer two were sustained, I think. Q. Mr. Jordan, is there anything you think this as Exhibit No. 10. it appropriate to add to the record? MS. MILLS: I have seven. SENATOR THOMPSON: Without objec- SENATOR DODD: Nine, you have here, but A. Mr. Hutchinson, I’d just like to—— tion, it will be made a part of the record. MR. HUTCHINSON: I’m going to object to we didn’t—I don’t know if you—you don’t [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 10 received the form of that question. I think that even have 9 as an exhibit, or just noted? in evidence.] though—and that’s not even a leading ques- MR. GRIFFITH: Nine was Grand Jury 44. MR. HUNDLEY: The only problem with tion; that’s an open-ended question that MR. HUTCHINSON: We just noted it, I be- this line of questioning is I think I wrote calls for a narrative response. And I think in lieve. that thing. fairness to the record that that is just sim- SENATOR DODD: You didn’t ask that it be [Laughter.] entered in the record? BY MR. HUTCHINSON: ply too broad for this deposition purpose. MR. HUTCHINSON: I believe that’s cor- Q. After you—after you last testified be- SENATOR THOMPSON: Mr. Kendall, is rect. fore the grand jury in June of ’98, since then, there any chance of perhaps your rephrasing SENATOR DODD: Yes. the President testified before the grand jury the question somewhat? SENATOR THOMPSON: How about those in August, and prior to his testimony before MR. KENDALL: Certainly. we sustained objections to? That doesn’t the grand jury in August, he made his state- BY MR. KENDALL: count. ment to the Nation in which he—I believe Q. Mr. Jordan, you were asked questions SENATOR DODD: Well, they’re still the language was admitted to ‘‘an inappro- about job assistance. Would you describe the marked. priate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky.’’ job assistance you have over your career SENATOR THOMPSON: They were Now, at the time that you testified in June given to people who have come to you re- marked? of ’98, you did not have this information, did questing help finding a job or finding em- SENATOR DODD: So which one should this you? ployment? be? Ten? A. He had not made that statement on the A. Well, I’ve known about job assistance SENATOR THOMPSON: This will be 10? 17th of August, that’s for sure. and have for a very long time. I learned SENATOR DODD: This is 10, then. Q. And was he in fact, to your knowledge, about it dramatically when I finished at MR. HUTCHINSON: All right, Number 10. still denying the existence of that relation- Howard University Law School, 1960, to re- [Jordan Deposition Exhibit No. 10 marked ship? turn home to Atlanta, Georgia to look for for identification.] A. I think, as I remember the statement, work. In the process of my—during my sen- BY MR. HUTCHINSON: he said he misled the American people. ior year, it was very clear to me that no law Q. Do you have a copy of that, Mr. Jordan? Q. And subsequent to this admission, did firm in Atlanta would hire me. It was very A. I have a copy of it. Thank you. you talk to your friend, the President of the clear to me that, uh, I could not get a job as Q. Thank you. Now, prior to making this United States, about his false statements to a black lawyer in the city government, the public statement, did you consult with the you? county government, the State government President’s attorney, Mr. Bob Bennett? A. I have not spoken to him about any or the Federal Government. A. I did not, not about this statement. false statements, one way or the other. And thanks to my high school bandmaster, Q. Did you consult with the President’s at- Q. Now, you have testified that you in the Mr. Kenneth Days, who called his fraternity torney, Mr. Bob Bennett? job search were acting at the behest of the brother, Donald L. Hollowell, a civil rights A. I did not consult with him. Mr. Bennett President of the United States; is that cor- lawyer, and said, ‘‘That Jordan boy is a fine came to my office and met with me and my rect? boy, and you ought to consider him for a job attorney, Mr. Hundley, in my office. A. I stand on that. at your law firm,’’ that’s when I learned Q. All right. And that was sometime prior Q. And there is no question but that Ms. about job referral, and that job referral by to making this statement? Monica Lewinsky understood that? Kenneth Days, now going to Don Hollowell, A. That is correct. A. I have to assume that she understood got me a job as a civil rights lawyer working Q. And it would be—and it would have been that. for Don Hollowell for $35 a week. between the 19th and the 22nd? Q. Okay. And in the law, there is the rule I have never forgotten Kenneth Days’ gen- A. That is correct. of agency and apparent authority. Is it safe erosity. And given the fact that all of the

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1246 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 other doors for employment as a black law- A. Well, I was hired to help the President A. Pretty much. yer graduating from Howard University were develop his ideas and themes about the new Q. And then, 4 months later, when you tes- open to me, that’s always—that’s always consensus for the country, and I was hired to tified before the grand jury in June, you said been etched in my heart and my mind, and deal with problems like the impact of these meetings were still ongoing, and you as a result, because I stand on Mr. Days’ globalization, democracy internationally referenced them at that time as discussing shoulders and Don Hollowell’s shoulders, I and domestically, the future of civil society, the policy, political, legal and media impact felt some responsibility to the extent that I and the Anglo-American Project; and I also of scandals and how to deal with them. Do could be helpful or got in a position to be was hired to work on major speeches. you remember that testimony? helpful, that I would do that. Q. You testified previously that your du- A. If I could see it. And there is I think ample evidence, both ties are such as the President and Chief of Q. Certainly. I’m happy to invite your at- in the media and by individuals across this Staff shall decide. Would that be a fair char- tention to your grand jury testimony of June country, that at such times that I have been acterization? 4th, 1998, page 25, lines 1 through 5. presented with that opportunity that I have A. Oh, yes. MR. ROGAN: And that would be, for the taken advantage of that opportunity, and I Q. How long have you been employed in Senators’ and counsel’s benefit—I believe think that I have been successful at it. this capacity? that’s in Tab 4 of the materials provided. Q. Was your assistance to Ms. Lewinsky A. Since August 11th, 1997. [Witness perusing document.] which you have described in any way depend- Q. And in the course of your duties, do you THE WITNESS: Right. I see it. ent upon her doing anything whatsoever in personally advise the President as to the BY MR. ROGAN: the Paula Jones case? matters that you just shared with us? Q. You’ve had a chance to review that, Mr. A. No. A. Yes. Blumenthal? IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES SIT- Q. How often do you meet with the Presi- A. I have. TING FOR THE TRIAL OF THE IMPEACHMENT dent personally to advise him? Q. And that—that’s correct testimony? A. It varies. Sometimes several times a OF WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, PRESIDENT A. Yes. week; sometimes I go without seeing him for OF THE UNITED STATES Q. Thank you. a number of weeks at a time. At the time you spoke of—you used the EXCERPTS OF VIDEO DEPOSITION OF SIDNEY Q. Is dealing with the media part of your— word ‘‘scandals’’ in the plural, and you were BLUMENTHAL your job? asked on June 4th what other scandals were (Wednesday, February 3, 1999, Washington, A. Yes. It’s part of my job and part of the discussed and you said they range from the D.C.) job of most people in the White House. Paula Jones trial to our China policy. Is that SENATOR SPECTER: If none, I will swear Q. Was that also one of your responsibil- a fair statement? the witness. ities on January 21st, 1998, when the Monica A. Oh, yes, yes. I do. Mr. Blumenthal, will you please stand up Lewinsky story broke? Q. Who typically attended those meetings? and raise your right hand? A. Yes. A. As I recall, there were about a dozen or You, Sidney Blumenthal, do swear that the Q. You previously testified that you had a so people, sometimes more, sometimes less. evidence you shall give in this case now role in the Monica Lewinsky matter after Q. Do you remember the names of the peo- pending between the United States and Wil- the story broke in The Washington Post on ple? liam Jefferson Clinton, President of the that date, at least in reference to your White A. I’ll try to. United States, shall be the truth, the whole House duties; is that correct? Q. Would it be helpful if I directed your at- truth, and nothing but the truth, so help A. I’m unclear on what you mean by ‘‘a tention to a couple of passages in the grand you, God? role.’’ jury testimony? MR. BLUMENTHAL: I do. Q. Specifically, you testified that you at- A. Sure, if you’d like. Whereupon, SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL was tended meetings in the White House in the MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senate and called as a witness and, after having been Office of Legal Counsel in the morning and counsel’s attention to the February 26th first duly sworn by Senator Specter, was ex- in the evening almost every day once the grand jury testimony, page 11, lines 2 amined and testified as follows: story broke? through 16. SENATOR SPECTER: Thank you. A. Yes. [Witness perusing document.] THE WITNESS: Thank you. Q. And what times did those meetings THE WITNESS: Sure. Yeah. SENATOR SPECTER: The House Managers occur after the story broke, these regular BY MR. ROGAN: may begin their questioning. meetings? Q. That would be Tab Number 1. MR. ROGAN: Thank you, Senator. A. The morning meetings occurred around A. Right, I see that. EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS 8:30, after the morning message meeting, and What it says here is that the names listed BY MR. ROGAN: the evening meetings occurred around 6:45. are Charles Ruff, Lanny Breuer, who is right Q. Mr. Blumenthal, first, good morning. Q. Are those meetings still ongoing? over here, Cheryl Mills, Bruce Lindsey, John A. Good morning to you. A. No. Podesta, Rahm Emanuel, Paul Begala, Jim Q. My name is Jim Rogan. As you know, I Q. Can you tell me when those meetings Kennedy, Mike McCurry, Joe Lockhart, Ann am one of the House Managers and will be ended? Lewis, Adam Goldberg, Don Goldberg, and A. Oh, I’d say about the time that the im- conducting this deposition pursuant to au- that’s—those are the names that I—that I re- peachment trial started. thority from the United States Senate. call. Q. That would be about a month or—about First, as a preliminary matter, we have Q. Thank you. a month ago? never had the pleasure of meeting or speak- And just for my benefit, Mr. Ruff, Mr. ing until this morning, correct? A. Yeah, something like that. Q. Thank you. Breuer, Ms. Mills, and Mr. Lindsey, those are A. That’s correct. all White House counsel? Q. If any question I ask is unclear or is in A. I don’t recall exactly. Q. Sure. But up until that point, were A. Yes. any way ambiguous, if you would please call Q. Could you just briefly identify for the that to my attention, I will be happy to try these essentially regularly scheduled meet- ings, twice a day, 8:30 in the morning and 6:45 record the other individuals that are—that to restate it or rephrase the question. are listed in your testimony? A. Thank you. in the evening? A. Right. A. Sure. John Podesta was Deputy Chief of Q. Mr. Blumenthal, where are you cur- Staff. Rahm Emanuel was a Senior Advisor. rently employed? Q. Did you generally attend those meet- ings? Paul Begala had the title of Counselor. Jim A. At the White House. Kennedy was in the Legal Counsel Office. Q. Is that in the Executive Office of the A. Generally. Mike McCurry was Press Secretary. Joe President? Q. Now, initially, when you testified before Lockhart at that time was Deputy Press A. It is. the grand jury on February 26th, 1998, your Q. What is your current title? first grand jury appearance, you stated that Secretary. Ann Lewis was Director of Com- A. My title is Assistant to the President. these twice-daily meetings dealt exclusively munications, still is. Adam Goldberg worked Q. Was that your title on January 21st, with the Monica Lewinsky matter, correct? as a—as an Assistant in the Legal Counsel 1998? A. They dealt with our press reaction, how Office, and Don Goldberg worked in Legisla- A. It was. we would respond to press reports dealing tive Affairs. Q. For the record, that is the date that The with it. This was a huge story, and we were Q. Thank you. Washington Post story appeared that essen- being inundated with hundreds of calls. Mr. Blumenthal, specifically inviting your tially broke the Monica Lewinsky story? Q. Right. attention to January 21st, 1998, you testified A. Yes. A. So— before the grand jury that on that date, you Q. On that date, were you the Assistant to Q. What I’m—what I’m trying to decipher personally spoke to the President regarding the President as to any specific subject mat- is that at least initially, at the time of your the Monica Lewinsky matter, correct? ter? first grand jury appearance, which was about A. Yes. A. I dealt with a variety of areas. a month after the story broke— Q. When you spoke to the President, did Q. Did your duties entail any specific mat- A. Right. you discuss The Washington Post story ter, or were you essentially a jack-of-all- Q. —the meetings were exclusively related about Ms. Lewinsky that appeared that trades at the White House for the President? to Monica Lewinsky. Is that correct? morning?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1247 A. I don’t recall if we talked about that ar- A. Yes. That’s what I mean by that. Q. And just getting us back on track, a few ticle specifically. Q. And the First Lady also at least shared moments ago, I think you—you shared with Q. Do you recall on June 25th testifying be- with you her opinion that he was being at- us that the First Lady said that the Presi- fore the grand jury, and I’m quoting, ‘‘We tacked for political motives? dent helped troubled people and he had done were speaking about the story that appeared MR. McDANIEL: Can I get a clarification, it many times in the past. that morning’’? Senator—Senator Specter? The earlier ques- A. Yes. A. Right. We were—we were speaking tion, I thought, had been what Mr. Q. Do you remember testifying before the about that story, but I don’t know if we re- Blumenthal had relayed to the President had grand jury on that subject, saying that the ferred to The Post. been said by the First Lady. First Lady said he has done this dozens, if Q. Thank you. MR. ROGAN: That’s correct. not hundreds, of times with people— You are familiar with The Washington MR. McDANIEL: And now the questions A. Yes. Post story that broke that day? are back—it seems to me have moved to an- Q. —with troubled people? A. I am. other topic— A. I recall that. Q. That story essentially stated that the MR. ROGAN: No. That’s— Q. After you related the conversation that Office of Independent Counsel was inves- MR. McDANIEL: —which is what— you had with the First Lady to the Presi- tigating whether the President made false MR. ROGAN: I’m— dent, what do you remember saying to the statements about his relationship with Ms. MR. McDANIEL: —did the First Lady say. President next about the subject of Monica Lewinsky in the Jones case, correct, to the MR. ROGAN: And I thank—I thank the Lewinsky? best of your recollection? gentleman for that clarification. I’m specifi- A. Well, I recall telling him that I under- A. If you could repeat that? cally asking what the witness relayed to the stood he felt that way, and that he did help Q. Sure. The story stated that the Office of President respecting his conversation with— people, but that he should stop trying to Independent Counsel was investigating his earlier conversation with the First Lady. help troubled people personally; that trou- whether the President made false statements MR. McDANIEL: Thank you. bled people are troubled and that they can about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky in Do you understand that, what he said? get you in a lot of messes and that you had the Jones case. THE WITNESS: I understand the distinc- to cut yourself off from it and you just had A. Right. tion, and I don’t— Q. And also that the Office of Independent to do it. That’s what I recall saying to him. BY MR. ROGAN: Q. Do you also remember in that conversa- Counsel was investigating whether the Presi- Q. I’ll restate the question, if that would tion saying to him, ‘‘You really need to not dent obstructed justice in the Jones case. Is help. do that at this point, that you can’t get near that your best recollection of what that A. Please. anybody who is even remotely crazy. You’re story was about? Q. Do you remember telling the President President’’? A. Yes. that the First Lady said to you that she felt Q. How did you end up speaking to the A. Yes. I think that was a little later in that with—in reference to this story that he President on that specific date? the conversation, but I do recall saying that. A. I don’t remember exactly whether he was being attacked for political motives? Q. When you told the President that he A. I remember her saying that to me, yes. had summoned me or whether I had asked to should avoid contact with troubled people, Q. And you relayed that to the President? speak him—to him. what did the President say to you in re- Q. And I realize, by the way, I—just so you A. I’m not sure I relayed that to the Presi- sponse? know, I’m not trying to trick you or any- dent. I may have just relayed the gist of the A. I’m trying to remember the sequence of thing. I realize this is a year later— conversation to him. I don’t—I’m not sure it. He—he said that was very difficult for A. Right. whether I relayed the entire conversation. him. He said he—he felt a need to help trou- Q. —and your testimony was many months MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senators’ and bled people, and it was hard for him to—to ago, and so if I invite your attention to pre- counsel’s attention to the June 4th, 1998, tes- cut himself off from doing that. vious grand jury testimony to refresh your timony of Mr. Blumenthal, page 47, begin- Q. Do you remember him saying specifi- recollection, I don’t want you to feel that in ning at line 5. cally, ‘‘It’s very difficult for me to do that, any way I’m trying to imply that you’re not BY MR. ROGAN: given how I am. I want to help people’’? being candid in your testimony. Q. Mr. Blumenthal, let me just read a pas- A. I recall—I recall that. With that, if I may invite your—your at- sage to you and tell me if this helps to re- Q. And when the President referred to try- tention to the June 4th grand jury testimony fresh your memory. ing to help people, did you understand him in on page 47, lines 5 through 6. A. Mm-hmm. that conversation to be referring to Monica [Witness perusing document.] MR. ROGAN: Do you have that, Lanny? Lewinsky? BY MR. ROGAN: MR. BREUER: Yes, I do. Thank you. A. I think it included Monica Lewinsky, Q. Let me see if this helps to refresh your BY MR. ROGAN: but also many others. recollection. You said, ‘‘It was about a week Q. Reading at line—at line 5, ‘‘I was in my Q. Right, but it was your understanding before the State of the Union speech.’’ office, and the President asked me to come that he was all—he was specifically referring A. I see. to the Oval Office. I was seeing him fre- to Monica Lewinsky in that list of people Q. ‘‘I was in my office, and the President quently in this period about the State of the that he tried to help? asked me to come to his office.’’ Union and Blair’s visit’’—and I—that was A. I believe that—that was implied. Does that help to refresh your recollec- Prime Minister Tony Blair, as an aside, cor- Q. Do you remember being asked that tion? rect? question before the grand jury and giving the A. Yes. A. That’s right. answer, ‘‘I understood that’’? Q. And so you now remember that the Q. Thank you. A. If you could point it out to me, I’d be President asked to speak with you? And then again, reading at line 7, ‘‘So I happy to see it. A. Yes. went up to the Oval Office and I began the Q. Certainly. Q. Did you go to the Oval Office? discussion, and I said that I had received— A. Yes. MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senators’ and that I had spoken to the First Lady that day Q. During that conversation, were you counsel’s attention to the June 25th, 1998, in the afternoon about the story that had alone with the President? grand jury, page 5, I believe it’s at lines 6 A. I was. broke in the morning, and I related to the through 8. Q. Do you remember if the door was President my conversation with the First [Witness perusing document.] closed? Lady and the conversation went as follows. THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that. Thank you. A. It was. The First Lady said that she was distressed By MR. ROGAN: Q. When you met with the President, did that the President was being attacked, in Q. You recall that now? you relate to him a conversation you had her view, for political motives for his min- A. Yes. with the First Lady earlier that day? istry of a troubled person. She said that the Q. Thank you. A. I did. President ministers to troubled people all Mr. Blumenthal, did the President then re- Q. What did you tell the President the the time,’’ and then it goes on to— late a conversation he had with Dick Morris First Lady told you earlier that day? A. Right. to you? A. I believe that I told him that the First Q. —relate the substance of the answer you A. He did. Lady had called me earlier in the day, and in just gave. Q. What was the substance of that con- the light of the story in The Post had told Does that help to refresh your recollection versation, as the President related it to you? me that the President had helped troubled with respect to what you told the President, A. He said that he had spoken to Dick Mor- people in the past and that he had done it the First Lady had said earlier? ris earlier that day, and that Dick Morris many times and that he was a compassionate A. Yes. had told him that if Nixon, Richard Nixon, person and that he helped people also out of Q. Thank you. had given a nationally televised speech at his religious conviction and that this was And do you now remember that the First the beginning of the Watergate affair, ac- part of—part of his nature. Lady had indicated to you that she felt the knowledging everything he had done wrong, Q. And did she also tell you that one of the President was being attacked for political he may well have survived it, and that was other reasons he helped people was out of his motives? the conversation that Dick Morris—that’s personal temperament? A. Well, I remember she said that to me. what Dick Morris said to the President.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1248 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Q. Did it sound to you like the President somebody, uh, surrounded by, uh, an oppres- A. I did later learn that, uh, as the whole was suggesting perhaps he would go on tele- sive environment that was creating a lie country did, uh, and I was surprised. vision and give a national speech? about him. He said he felt like, uh, the char- Q. When the President told you that A. Well, I don’t know. I didn’t know. acter in the novel Darkness at Noon. Monica Lewinsky threatened him, did you Q. And when the President related the sub- Q. Did he also say he felt like he can’t get ever feel compelled to report that informa- stance of his conversation with Dick Morris the truth out? tion to the Secret Service? to you, how did you respond to that? A. Yes, I—I believe he said that. A. No. A. I said to the President, ‘‘Well, what Q. Politicians are always loathe to confess Q. The FBI or any other law enforcement have you done wrong?’’ their ignorance, particularly on videotape. I organization? Q. Did he reply? will do so. I’m unfamiliar with the novel A. No. A. He did. Darkness at Noon. Did you—do you have any Q. I’m assuming that a threat to the Presi- Q. What did he say? familiarity with that, or did you understand dent from somebody in the White House A. He said, ‘‘I haven’t done anything what the President meant by that? would normally send off alarm bells among wrong.’’ A. I—I understood what he meant. I—I was staff. Q. And what did you say to that response? familiar with the book. A. It wouldn’t— A. Well, I said, as I recall, ‘‘That’s one of Q. What—what did he mean by that, per MR. McDANIEL: Well, I’d like to object to the stupidest ideas I ever heard. If you your understanding? the question, Senator. There’s no testimony haven’t done anything wrong, why would you A. Uh, the book is by Arthur Koestler, who that Mr. Blumenthal learned of a threat con- do that?’’ was somebody who had been a communist temporaneously with it being made by some- Q. Did the President then give you his ac- and had become disillusioned with com- one in the White House. This is a threat that count of what happened between him and munism. And it’s an anti-communist novel. was relayed to him sometime afterwards by Monica Lewinsky? It’s about, uh, uh, the Stalinist purge trials someone who was no longer employed in the A. As I recall, he did. and somebody who was a loyal communist White House. So I think the question doesn’t Q. What did the President tell you? who then is put in one of Stalin’s prisons and relate to the testimony of this witness. A. He, uh—he spoke, uh, fairly rapidly, as held on trial and executed, uh, and it’s about MR. ROGAN: Respectfully, I’m not sure I recall, at that point and said that she had his trial. what the legal basis of the objection is. The come on to him and made a demand for sex, Q. Did you understand what the President evidence before us is that the President told that he had rebuffed her, turned her down, was trying to communicate when he related the witness that Monica Lewinsky threat- and that she, uh, threatened him. And, uh, his situation to the character in that novel? ened him. he said that she said to him, uh, that she was A. I think he felt that the world was [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] called ‘‘the stalker’’ by her peers and that against him. SENATOR SPECTER: We’ve conferred and she hated the term, and that she would claim Q. I thought only Members of Congress felt overrule the objection on the ground that it that they had had an affair whether they had that way. calls for an answer; that, however the wit- or they hadn’t, and that she would tell peo- Mr. Blumenthal, did you ever ask the ness chooses to answer it, was not a contem- ple. President if he was ever alone with Monica poraneous threat, or he thought it was stale, Q. Do you remember him also saying that Lewinsky? or whatever he thinks. But the objection is the reason Monica Lewinsky would tell peo- A. I did. overruled. ple that is because then she wouldn’t be Q. What was his response? MR. ROGAN: Thank you. known by her peers as ‘‘the stalker’’ any- A. I asked him a number of questions that BY MR. ROGAN: more? appeared in the press that day. I asked him, Q. Let me—let me restate the question, if A. Yes, that’s right. uh, if he were alone, and he said that, uh, he I may. Mr. Blumenthal, would a threat— Q. Do you remember the President also was within eyesight or earshot of someone SENATOR SPECTER: We withdraw the saying that—and I’m quoting—‘‘I’ve gone when he was with her. ruling. down that road before. I’ve caused pain for a Q. What other questions do you remember [Laughter.] lot of people. I’m not going to do that asking him? MR. McDANIEL: I withdraw my objection, again’’? A. Uh, there was a story in the paper that, then. A. Yes. He told me that. [Laughter.] Q. And that was in the same conversation uh, there were recorded messages, uh, left by MR. ROGAN: Senator Specter, the ruling that you had with the President? him on her voice-mail and I asked him if A. Right, in—in that sequence. that were true. is just fine by my light. I’m just going to try Q. Can you describe for us the President’s Q. What did he say? to simplify the question for the witness’ ben- demeanor when he shared this information A. He said, uh, that it was, that, uh, he had efit. with you? called her. SENATOR SPECTER: We’ll hold in abey- A. Yes. He was, uh, very upset. I thought Q. You had asked him about a press ac- ance a decision on whether to reinstate the he was, a man in anguish. count that said there were potentially a ruling. Q. And at that point, did you repeat your number of telephone messages left by the MR. ROGAN: Thank you. Maybe I should earlier admonition to him as far as not try- President for Monica Lewinsky. And he re- just quit while I’m ahead and have the ques- ing to help troubled people? layed to you that he called her. Did he tell tion read back. A. I did. I—I think that’s when I told him you how many times he called her? BY MR. ROGAN: that you can’t get near crazy people, uh, or A. He—he did. He said he called once. He Q. Basically, Mr. Blumenthal, what I’m troubled people. Uh, you’re President; you said he called when, uh, Betty Currie’s asking is, I mean, normally, would a threat just have to separate yourself from this. brother had died, to tell her that. from somebody against the President in the Q. And I’m not sure, based on your testi- Q. And other than that one time that he White House typically require some sort of mony, if you gave that admonition to him shared that information with you, he shared report being made to a law enforcement once or twice. Let me—let me clarify for you no other information respecting additional agency? why my questioning suggested it was twice. calls? A. Uh, in the abstract, yes. In your grand jury testimony on June the A. No. Q. This conversation that you had with the 4th, at page 49, beginning at line 25, you Q. He never indicated to you that there President on January the 21st, 1998, how did began the sentence by saying, and I quote, were over 50 telephone conversations be- that conversation conclude? ‘‘And I repeated to the President’’— tween himself and Monica Lewinsky? A. Uh, I believe we, uh—well, I believe A. Right. A. No. after that, I said to the President that, uh— Q. —‘‘that he really needed never to be Q. Based on your conversation with the who was—seemed to me to be upset, that you near people who were’’— President at that time, would it have sur- needed to find some sure footing and to be A. Right. prised you to know that there were over 50— confident. And, uh, we went on, I believe, to Q. —‘‘troubled like this,’’ and so forth. Do there were records of over 50 telephone con- discuss the State of the Union. you remember now if you—if that was cor- versations with Monica Lewinsky and the Q. You went on to other business? rect? Did you find yourself in that conversa- President? A. Yes, we went on to talk about public tion having to repeat the admonition to him A. Would I have been surprised at that policy. that you’d given earlier? time? Q. When this conversation with the Presi- A. I’m sure I did. Uh, I felt—I felt that Q. Yes. dent concluded as it related to Monica pretty strongly. He shouldn’t be involved A. Uh, I—to see those records and if he—I Lewinsky, what were your feelings toward with troubled people. don’t fully grasp the question here. Could the President’s statement? Q. Do you remember the President also you—would I have been surprised? A. Uh, well, they were complex. Uh, I be- saying something about being like a char- Q. Based on the President’s response to lieved him, uh, but I was also, uh—I thought acter in a novel? your question at that time, would it have he was very upset. That troubled me. And I A. I do. surprised you to have been told or to have also was troubled by his association with Q. What did he say? later learned that there were over 50 re- troubled people and thought this was not a A. Uh, he said to me, uh, that, uh, he felt corded—50 conversations between the Presi- good story and thought he shouldn’t be doing like a character in a novel. Uh, he felt like dent and Ms. Lewinsky? this.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1249 Q. Do you remember also testifying before A. No. Q. I believe early on in your testimony and the grand jury that you felt that the Presi- Q. After you were subpoenaed but before throughout your testimony to the grand dent’s story was a very heartfelt story and you testified before the federal grand jury, jury, the idea of executive privilege covering that ‘‘he was pouring out his heart, and I be- did the President ever say that he did not your testimony or conversations with the lieved him’’? want you to mislead the grand jury with a President was raised. Is that correct? A. Yes, that’s what I told the grand jury, I false statement? A. It was. believe; right. A. No. We didn’t have any subsequent con- Q. Do you believe the White House knew Q. That was—that was how you interpreted versation about this matter. that this privilege would be asserted in your the President’s story? Q. So it would be fair also to say that after testimony? That was no surprise to them? A. Yes, I did. He was, uh—he seemed—he you were subpoenaed but before you testified A. Uh— seemed emotional. before the Federal grand jury, the President MR. BREUER: I’m going to object. It’s the Q. When the President told you he was never told you that he was not being truthful White House’s privilege to assert it could not helping Monica Lewinsky, did he ever de- with you in that January 21st conversation have been surprised. It’s a scribe to you how he might be helping or about Monica Lewinsky? mischaracterization of the facts. ministering to her? A. Uh, he never spoke to me about that at [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] A. No. all. SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards Q. Did he ever describe how many times he Q. The President never instructed you be- and I believe the objection is well-founded on may have tried to help or minister to her? fore your testimony before the grand jury the ground that he cannot testify as to what A. No. not to relay his false account of his relation- someone else knew. So would you rephrase Q. Did he tell you how many times he vis- ship with Monica Lewinsky? the question? The objection will be sus- ited with Monica Lewinsky? A. We—we didn’t speak about anything. tained. A. No. Q. And as to your testimony on all three BY MR. GRAHAM: Q. Did he tell you how many times Monica appearances before the grand jury on Feb- Q. When executive privilege was asserted, Lewinsky visited him in the Oval Office com- ruary 26th, June 4th and June 25th, 1998—as do you know how it came about? Do you plex? an aside, by the way, let me just say I think have any knowledge of how it came about? A. No. this question has been asked of all the wit- A. What I recall is that I—in my first ap- Q. Did he tell you how many times he was nesses, so this is not peculiar to you—but as pearance before the grand jury, I was asked alone with Monica Lewinsky? to those three grand jury appearances, do questions about my conversations with the A. No. you adopt as truth your testimony on all President. And I went out into the hall, Q. He never described to you any intimate three of those occasions? asked if I could go out in the hall, and I physical activity he may have had with A. Oh, yes. spoke with the White House legal counsel Monica Lewinsky? MR. ROGAN: If I may have a moment? who was there, Cheryl Mills, and said, ‘‘What A. Oh, no. SENATOR SPECTER: Of course. Would do I say?’’ Q. Did the President ever tell you that he you like a short break? Q. And she said? gave any gifts to Monica Lewinsky? MR. ROGAN: That might be convenient, A. And I was advised to assert privilege. A. No. Senator. Q. So the executive privilege assertion Q. Did he tell you that Monica Lewinsky SENATOR SPECTER: All right. It’s a lit- came about from advice to you by White gave him any gifts? tle past 10. We’ll take a 5-minute recess. House counsel? A. No. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the A. Yes. Q. Based on the President’s story as he re- record at 10 o’clock a.m. Q. Now, you’ve stated, I think, very hon- lated on January 21st, would it have sur- [Recess.] estly, and I appreciate, that you were lied to prised you to know at that time that there THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going back by the President. Is it a fair statement, was a repeated gift exchange between on the record at 10:12 a.m. given your previous testimony concerning Monica Lewinsky and the President? SENATOR SPECTER: We shall proceed; your 30-minute conversation, that the Presi- A. Well, I learned later about that, and I Mr. Graham questioning for the House Man- dent was trying to portray himself as a vic- was surprised. agers. tim of a relationship with Monica Lewinsky? Q. The President never told you that he en- MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Senator. A. I think that’s the import of his whole gaged in occasional sexual banter with her BY MR. GRAHAM: story. on the telephone? Q. Again, Mr. Blumenthal, if I ask you Q. During this period of time, the Paula A. No. something that’s confusing, just slow me Jones lawsuit, other allegations about rela- Q. He never told you about any cover sto- down and straighten me out here. tionships with the President and other ries that he and Monica Lewinsky may have A. Thank you. women were being made and found their way developed to disguise a relationship? Q. Okay. I’m going to ask as direct, to-the- in the press. Is that correct? A. No. point questions as I can so we all can go A. Yes. Q. He never suggested to you that there home. Q. Now, when you have these morning might be some physical evidence pointing to June 4th, 1998, when you testified to the meetings and evening meetings about press a physical relationship between he—between grand jury, on page 49—I guess it’s page 185 strategy, I believe your previous testimony himself and Monica Lewinsky? on tab 4. goes along the lines that any time a press re- A. No. MR. McDANIEL: Page 49? port came out about a story between the Q. Did the President ever discuss his grand MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. President and a woman, that you would sit jury—or strike that. MR. McDANIEL: Thank you. down and strategize about what to do. Is Did the President ever discuss his deposi- BY MR. GRAHAM: that correct? tion testimony with you in the Paula Jones Q. That’s where you start talking about A. Well, we would, uh, talk about what the case on that date? the story that the President told you. Know- White House spokesman would say about it. A. Oh, no. ing what you know now, do you believe the Q. Does the name ‘‘Kathleen Willey’’ mean Q. Did he ever tell you that he denied President lied to you about his relationship anything to you in that regard? under oath in his Paula Jones deposition with Ms. Lewinsky? MR. BREUER: I’m going to object. It’s be- that he had an affair with Monica Lewinsky? A. I do. yond the scope of this deposition. In the A. No. Q. I appreciate your honesty. You had proffer from the Managers, they explicitly Q. Did the President ever tell you that he raised executive privilege at some time in state the areas that they want to go into, ministered to anyone else who then made a the past, I believe. and they explicitly state that they want to sexual advance toward him? MR. McDANIEL: I object, Senator. Mr. speak to Mr. Blumenthal about his January A. No. Blumenthal was a passive vessel for the rais- 21, 1998, conversation with the President Q. Mr. Blumenthal, after you testified be- ing of executive privilege by the President. about Monica Lewinsky. And any aspects as fore the grand jury, did you ever commu- It’s not his privilege to assert, so the ques- to Kathleen Willey are—have nothing to do nicate to the President the questions that tion, I think, is misleading. with the Articles of Impeachment, nor do you were asked? BY MR. GRAHAM: they have anything to do with the proffer A. No. Q. At any time—I’m sorry. made by the Managers, and it’s beyond the Q. After you testified before the grand [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] scope of this deposition. jury, did you ever communicate to the Presi- SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards SENATOR SPECTER: Just wait one sec- dent the answers which you gave to those and I have conferred and believe that he can ond. questions? answer the question if he did not raise the [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] A. No. privilege, so we will overrule the objection. SENATOR SPECTER: Mr. Graham, as you Q. After you were subpoenaed to testify SENATOR EDWARDS: Either he asserted know, the scope of the examination of Mr. but before you testified before the Federal it or it was asserted on his behalf. Blumenthal is limited by the subject matters grand jury, did the President ever recant his THE WITNESS: If you could repeat it, reflected in the Senate record. Are you able earlier statements to you about Monica please. to substantiate the Senate record as a basis Lewinsky? BY MR. GRAHAM: for asking the question?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00051 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1250 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 MR. GRAHAM: I’m assuming, yes, Senator, THE WITNESS: Well— MR. McDANIEL: Senator, I really object that the grand jury testimony of Mr. BY MR. GRAHAM: to the question where we mix ‘‘you’’ and Blumenthal is part of the Senate record. And Q. If you’d like a chance to read it over, ‘‘we’’ and the ‘‘White House.’’ I’d like, if pos- on June 25th, 1998, on page 21, there’s a dis- just take your time. sible, for the question—if they want to know cussion between Mr. Blumenthal and the A. Yes. Thank you. what Mr. Blumenthal did, to ask him what Independent Counsel’s Office about strategy [Witness perusing document.] he did, and questions about what the White meetings and other women, and in that testi- THE WITNESS: It’s a long article. House did and what we and you did. mony, he mentions that ‘‘we discussed Paula BY MR. GRAHAM: MR. GRAHAM: That’s fair enough. Jones, Kathleen Willey, in our strategy Q. Yes, sir, it is, and just— MR. McDANIEL: Okay, we thank you. meeting.’’ A. Yeah. SENATOR SPECTER: We think that’s And I think the question will not be as om- Q. —just take your time. I’m not going to well-founded. inous as some may think it sounds. I think give you a test on the article. I just wanted— MR. GRAHAM: Yes, and I agree. I agree I can get right to the point pretty quickly A. No. I just wanted to read it. that is well-founded. about what I’m trying to do with— Q. —to refresh your memory. Absolutely, BY MR. GRAHAM: SENATOR SPECTER: Well, would you you take your time. Q. Did you have any discussions with make an offer of proof so that we can see A. I hope you don’t mind if I took the time White House press people about the nature of what the scope is that you have in mind? here. this relationship after this article broke? MR. GRAHAM: Basically, his testimony is Q. No, sir. Are you—you’re okay now? A. No. that when a press report came about con- A. I am. Q. Did you have any discussions with cerning Ms. Jones or Kathleen Willey or a re- Q. Okay. In essence, what this article is— White House lawyers after this article broke lationship between the President and an- is alleging is what we now know, the allega- about the nature of the relationship? other woman, they sat down and strategized tions that Ms. Lewinsky had a relationship A. No. Q. After you had the conversation with the about how to respond to those press ac- with the President, that Mr. Jordan was try- President, sometime the week of the 21st—I counts, what to do and what to say—at least ing to help her secure counsel, to file an affi- believe that’s your testimony—shortly after that’s what his testimony indicates. And I davit saying they had no relationship, and the news story broke, this 30-minute con- just want to ask him, once the January 21st the relationship on January 21st was being versation where he tells you about— story about Ms. Lewinsky came out, how exposed through some tape recordings, sup- A. There’s not a question. they discussed her in relationship to other posedly, the Independent Counsel had access to between Ms. Lewinsky and Ms. Tripp. Is Q. Okay. Is that correct? When did you strategy meetings. have this conversation with the President? SENATOR SPECTER: Mr. Breuer, how that correct? Do you recall? would you respond to Congressman Graham’s A. Well, there are a lot of questions in there. A. Yes. It was in the early evening of Janu- statement that as he refers to a reference to ary 21st. Ms. Willey in the record? Q. Okay, yeah, and I’m sorry. This article seems to suggest that Ms. Q. Early evening of January 21st? MR. BREUER: Senator, I haven’t seen the A. Yes. one reference, but I may—I would acknowl- Lewinsky is telling a friend— A. Mm-hmm. Q. The same day the story was reported? edge that there may be one passing reference A. Yes. Q. —that she has a relationship with the to Ms. Willey in the voluminous materials Q. Okay. So, from your point of view, this President, a sexual relationship with the that are before us here in the grand jury, was something that needed to be addressed? President. Senator. But it’s clearly not germane to this MR. McDANIEL: Your Honor, I—Senator, I A. Mm-hmm. deposition. It’s clearly not germane to the object to the question about ‘‘this’’ is some- Q. You understand that from the article? proffer made by the Managers about why Mr. thing that needs to be addressed. I don’t un- A. Yes. Sidney Blumenthal was a witness. It is clear- derstand what the ‘‘this’’ is, exactly, that Q. This article also alleges that an affi- ly not germane to the Articles of Impeach- the question refers to. Does it refer to the davit was filed by Ms. Lewinsky denying ment. story? Does it refer to the President’s state- that relationship, and Mr. Jordan sought an And, indeed, in Mr. Lindsey Graham’s prof- ment to Mr. Blumenthal? attorney for her, a friend of the President. Is fer just now, he said that he wants to go SENATOR SPECTER: Well, we think— that correct? back and ask about the January 21 conversa- Senator Edwards and I concur that the wit- A. It says she filed an affidavit, and I’m tion. It’s my view that Kathleen Willey is ness can answer the question. If he does not just looking for where it says that Jordan tangential, at best, and is not germane to understand it, he can say so and then can had secured the attorney. this deposition and ought not to be inquired have the question rephrased. into. Q. The very first paragraph, let me read it. BY MR. GRAHAM: SENATOR EDWARDS: And, Senator Spec- ‘‘The Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr Q. You have a conversation with the Presi- ter, I would ask that we go off the record for has expanded his investigation of President dent on the same day the article comes out, this discussion, given the question of wheth- Clinton to examine whether Clinton and his and the conversation includes a discussion er this is within the scope of the Senate close friend, Vernon Jordan, encouraged a 24- about the relationship between him and Ms. record. year-old’’— Lewinsky. Is that correct? SENATOR SPECTER: We shall go off the A. Right. A. Yes. record. Q. —’’former White House intern to lie to Q. Okay. So it was certainly on people’s THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the lawyers for Paula Jones about whether the minds, including the President, is that cor- record at 10:20 a.m. intern had an affair with the President, rect, the essence of this story? [Discussion off the record.] sources close to the investigation said yes- MR. McDANIEL: I object to the question THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going back terday.’’ about whether it’s on people’s minds. I think on the record at 10:48 a.m. A. Right. he can answer about what he knew or about SENATOR SPECTER: Congressman Q. So I guess that first paragraph kind of what he learned from people who spoke to Lindsey, you may proceed. sums up the accusation. him, but the question goes far beyond that. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, sir. A. I think— BY MR. GRAHAM: BY MR. GRAHAM: Q. What type reaction did the White House Q. Well, let me ask you this. We know it Q. Thank you for your patience, Mr. have when this—as you recall—when this ar- was on the President’s mind. Blumenthal. I appreciate it. ticle came to light? SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards A. Thank you. A. I—I think the White House was over- and I think that, technically, that’s correct, Q. Let’s get back to the—we’ll approach whelmed with press inquiries. and perhaps you can avoid it by just pin- this topic another way and we’ll try to tie it Q. Was there a sense of alarm that this was pointing it just a little more. up at the end here. a bad story? MR. GRAHAM: Yes. We’ll try to be laser- The January 21st article breaks, and I A. Yes. like in these questions. think it’s in The Washington Post, is that Q. And wasn’t there a sense of reassurance BY MR. GRAHAM: correct, the January 21st article about Ms. by the President himself that this was an un- Q. You had a conversation with the Presi- Lewinsky being on tape, talking about her true story? dent of the United States about his relation- relationship with the President? Are you fa- A. The President did make a public state- ship with Ms. Lewinsky on the same day The miliar with that article? ment that afternoon. Washington Post article came out. That’s A. I’m familiar with an article on January Q. And I believe White House officials on correct? Yes or no? 21st in The Washington Post. his behalf denied the essence of this story; is A. That—I—I—that’s right. Q. And what—what was the essence of that that correct? Q. Okay. During that period of time, that article, as you remember it? A. Yes. day or any day thereafter, were you involved A. If you have it there, I’d be happy to look Q. And basically, you were passing along in any meeting with White House lawyers or at it. what somebody you trust and admire told press people where the conversation—or Q. Yeah. Let’s see if we can find it, what you to be the case, and from the White House where the topic of Ms. Lewinsky’s allega- tab that is. Tab 7. point of view, that was the response to this tions or the—Ken Starr’s allegations about [Witness perusing document.] story, that we deny these allegations. Ms. Lewinsky came up?

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00052 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1251 A. I’m confused about which allegations A. No. I don’t recall those incidents de- MR. GRAHAM: The ones that I have indi- you’re talking about. scribed in this article, but I do note that cated are associated with the White House as Q. That she had a relationship with the among senior advisors at one of the meetings being the source of those statements and— President, and they were trying to get her to that we held—it could have been in the SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards file a false affidavit. Did that topic ever morning or late afternoon—we felt very and I think that question is appropriate, and come up in your presence with the Press Sec- firmly that nobody should ever be a source the objection is overruled. retary, White House press people or lawyers to a reporter about a story about Monica THE WITNESS: I have no idea how any- for the White House? Lewinsky’s personal life, and I strongly thing came to be attributed to a White A. I think the whole story was discussed by agreed with that and that’s what we decided. House source. senior staff in the White House. Q. When did that meeting occur? BY MR. GRAHAM: Q. When did that begin to occur? A. I’d say within a week of the story break- Q. Do you know a Mr. Terry Lenzner? A. I’m sure we were discussing it on Janu- ing. A. I—I met him once. ary 21st. Q. Who was at that meeting? Q. When did you meet him? Q. Do you recall that every— A. I don’t recall exactly, but I would say A. I met him outside the grand jury room. A. Every—everyone in the country was that the list of names that I mentioned be- Q. And who is he? talking about it. fore. A. He’s a private investigator. Q. Well, do you recall the tenor of that Q. And that would be? Q. And who does he work for? conversation? Do you recall the flavor of it? A. I may not get them all, but I would say A. He works for many clients, including Can you describe it the best you can, about— Chuck Ruff, Cheryl Mills, Bruce Lindsey, the President. was there a sense of alarm, shock? How Lanny Breuer, Jim Kennedy, Mike McCurry, Q. Okay. Mr. Blumenthal, I appreciate would you describe it? Joe Lockhart, Adam Goldberg, Don Gold- your candor here. A. I think we felt overwhelmed by the cri- berg, Ann Lewis, Paul Begala, Rahm Eman- Do you know Mr. Harry Evans? sis atmosphere. uel, myself. A. Harold Evans? Q. Did anybody ever suggest who is Monica Q. And this occurred about a week after Q. Yes, sir. Lewinsky, go find out about who she is and the January 21st article? A. Yes, I do. what she does? A. I don’t recall the exact date. Q. Who is Mr. Harold Evans? A. No. Q. At least 7 days? A. Harold Evans is—I don’t know his exact Q. So is it your testimony that this accusa- A. Within a week— title right now. He works for Mort tion comes out on January 21st, and the ac- Q. Okay. Zuckerman, involving his publications, and cusation being that a White House intern has A. —I believe. he’s the husband of my former editor, Tina Q. Would it be fair to say that you were an inappropriate relationship with the Presi- Brown. dent, filed a false affidavit on his behalf, and sitting there during this conversation and Q. Has he ever worked for the New York nobody at this meeting suggested let’s find that you had previously been told by the Daily News? out who Monica Lewinsky is and what’s President that he was in essence a victim of MR. BREUER: I’m going to object to this going on here? Ms. Lewinsky’s sexual demands, and you line of questioning. It seems well beyond the A. Well, I wasn’t referring to any meeting, said nothing to anyone? scope of this deposition. I have never heard MR. McDANIEL: Is the question, ‘‘You but in any of my discussions with members of Mr. Harold Evans, and it’s not clear to me said’’— of the White House staff, nobody discussed that’s anywhere in this voluminous record or Monica Lewinsky’s personal life or decided THE WITNESS: I don’t— MR. McDANIEL: Is the question, ‘‘You said any of these issues. that we had to find out who she was. SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards Q. Could I turn you now to Tab 15, please? nothing to anyone about what the President told you?’’? and I think it would be appropriate to have Okay. an offer of proof on this, Congressman Gra- MR. McDANIEL: Would you like him to MR. GRAHAM: Right. THE WITNESS: I never told any of my col- ham. read this? MR. GRAHAM: I’m going to ask Mr. MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, please. Just take leagues about what the President told me. Blumenthal if he has ever at any time passed your time. And I am now referring to an AP BY MR. GRAHAM: on to Mr. Evans or anyone else raw notes, story by Karen G-u-l-l-o. I don’t want to mis- Q. And this is after the President recants notes, work products from a Mr. Terry pronounce her name. his story—recounts his story—to you, where Lenzner about subjects of White House inves- [Witness perusing document.] he’s visibly upset, feels like he’s a victim, THE WITNESS: I’m ready, Congressman. that he associates himself with a character tigations to members of the press, to include BY MR. GRAHAM: who’s being lied about, and you at no time Ms. Lewinsky. Q. Thank you. suggested to your colleagues that there is SENATOR SPECTER: Relating to Monica And this article—do you know this re- something going on here with the President Lewinsky? porter, by any chance? and Ms. Lewinsky you need to know about. MR. GRAHAM: Yes, and anyone else. A. I do know this reporter, but I did not Is that your testimony? MR. McDANIEL: That’s a good question. I know this reporter on January 30th. A. I never mentioned my conversation. I think we don’t have any objection to that Q. All right. Do you subsequently know— regarded that conversation as a private con- question. A. Some months later, I met this reporter. versation in confidence, and I didn’t mention SENATOR SPECTER: Well, we still have Q. And the basic essence of my question, it to my colleagues, I didn’t mention it to to rule on it. Overruled. The objection is Mr. Blumenthal, will be this report indicates my friends, I didn’t mention it to my family, overruled. some derogatory information about Ms. besides my wife. MR. GRAHAM: All right. Now I think I Lewinsky, and it also has some statements Q. Did you mention it to any White House know the answer. by White House Press Secretary and Ms. lawyers? [Laughter.] Lewis. And I want to ask how those two A. I mentioned it many months later to BY MR. GRAHAM: statements go together. Lanny Breuer in preparation for one of my Q. So let’s phrase it very clearly for the This report indicates that a White House grand jury appearances, when I knew I would record here. You know Mr. Evans; correct? aide called this reporter to suggest that Ms. be questioned about it. And I certainly never A. I do. Lewinsky’s past included weight problems, mentioned it to any reporter. Q. Have you at any time received any and she was called ‘‘The Stalker.’’ And it Q. Do you know how, over a period of notes, work product from a Mr. Terry says that ‘‘Junior staff members, speaking weeks, stories about Ms. Lewinsky being Lenzner about anybody? on condition that they not be identified, said called a stalker, a fantasizer, obsessed with A. No. she was known as a flirt, wore her skirts too the President, called the name ‘‘Elvira’’—do Q. Okay. So, therefore, you had nothing to short, was ‘‘ ‘a little bit weird’.’’ And the you know how that got into the press? pass on? next paragraph says: ‘‘Little by little, ever A. Which—which—which question are you A. Right. since the allegations of an affair between asking me? Which part of that? Q. Fair enough. Do you know a Mr. Gene President Clinton and Ms. Lewinsky surfaced Q. Okay. Do you have any idea how White Lyons? 10 days ago, White House sources have waged House sources are associated with state- A. Yes, I do. a behind-the-scenes campaign to portray her ments such as ‘‘She’s known as ‘Elvira’,’’ Q. Who is Mr. Gene Lyons? as an untrustworthy climber obsessed with ‘‘She’s obsessed with the President,’’ ‘‘She’s A. He is a columnist for the Arkansas the President.’’ known as a flirt,’’ ‘‘She’s the product of a Democrat Gazette. Do you have any direct knowledge or indi- troubled home, divorced parents,’’ ‘‘She’s Q. Are you familiar with his appearance on rect knowledge that such a campaign by known as ‘The Stalker’’’? Do you have any ‘‘Meet the Press’’ where he suggests in an ar- White House aides or junior staff members idea how that got in the press? ticle he wrote later that maybe the Presi- ever existed? MR. BREUER: I’m going to object. The dent is a victim similar to David Letterman A. No. document speaks for itself, but it’s not clear in terms of somebody following him around, Q. Okay. Do you ever remember hearing that the terms that Mr. Lindsey has used are obsessed with him? Ms. Lewis or Mr. McCurry admonishing any- necessarily—any or all of them—are from a A. Is this one of the exhibits? one in the White House about ‘‘watch what White House source. I object to the form and Q. Yes, sir. you say about Ms. Lewinsky’’? the characterization of the question. A. I wonder if you could refer me to it.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00053 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1252 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 Q. Sure. I can’t read my writing. BY MR. GRAHAM: that White House officials, both in January BY MR. GRAHAM: Q. The characterization embodied here in- and in February, if at any time, contacted Q. Well, while we are looking for the ex- dicates this could be a totally innocent rela- sources, press sources. hibit, let me ask you this. Do you have any tionship in which the President was in a MR. GRAHAM: I will introduce these arti- independent knowledge of him making such sense the victim of someone. Is it fair to say, cles. The articles are dated with White House a statement? Mr. Blumenthal, that is very much like the sources, unsolicited, calling about this A. Well, I’d like to see the exhibit so— scenario the President painted to you when event, saying these things in January and Q. Okay. you talked with him on January the 21st? February. A. —so I could know exactly what he said. A. It could be like that. MR. BREUER: Well— Q. Okay. Q. Okay. And it goes on further: ‘‘rather SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards MR. McDANIEL: If I might—Congressman, like the woman who followed David and I agree that the question may be asked I don’t know whether the one you’re think- Letterman around.’’ Is that very much like and answered. Overruled. ing of is—I note in Exhibit 20, there are— the characterization the President indicated THE WITNESS: If you could restate it, well, it’s not a story by Mr. Lyons— to you between him and Ms. Lewinsky? please? MR. GRAHAM: And that’s it. A. Could be. BY MR. GRAHAM: MR. McDANIEL: There are references to Q. Did you ever at any time talk with Mr. Q. Is it your testimony that the White him in—in that story. Gene Lyons about Ms. Lewinsky or any House sources that are being referred to by MR. GRAHAM: That’s it. Thank you very other person that was the subject of a rela- the press are a result of the 21st of January much. tionship with the President? Isikoff article? That’s not what you’re say- MR. McDANIEL: You’re welcome. A. I did talk to Gene Lyons about Monica ing, is it? MR. GRAHAM: I appreciate it. Lewinsky. A. No. THE WITNESS: This is 20? Q. Could you tell us what you told him? MR. McDANIEL: Well— BY MR. GRAHAM: A. He asked me my views, and I told him, MR. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. McDANIEL: —I don’t think that there Q. Yes, sir. in no uncertain terms, that I wouldn’t talk ought to be argument with Mr. Blumenthal. A. Thank you. about her personally. I talked about Monica I think he ought to be asked a question and Do you mind if I just read through it? Lewinsky with all sorts of people, my moth- Q. Yes, sir. Take your time. er, my friends, about what was in the news given an opportunity to answer it, and that’s A. Thank you. [Witness perusing docu- stories every day, just like everyone else, an argumentative question and followed up ment.] I’ve read this. but when it came to talking about her per- by, ‘‘That’s not what you’re saying, is it?’’ I also think the questions are remarkably Q. My question is that this article is a Bos- sonally, I drew a line. imprecise, in that they do not specify what ton Globe article, Saturday, February the Q. So, when you talk to your mother and information it is this questioner is seeking 21st, and it references an appearance on your friends and Mr. Lyons about Ms. to get Mr. Blumenthal to talk about, and in ‘‘Meet the Press’’ by Mr. Gene Lyons. And I Lewinsky, are you telling us that you have that regard, I think the questions are both believe you know who Mr. Gene Lyons is; is these conversations, and you know what the irrelevant and unfair. that correct? President has told you and you’re not tempt- SENATOR EDWARDS: Are you objecting A. I do. ed to tell somebody the President is a victim to a question that’s already been asked and Q. Did you know who he was in January of of this lady, out of his own mouth? A. Not only am I not tempted, I did not. answered? 1998? MR. McDANIEL: I might be, Senator, and A. I did. Q. You don’t know how all this informa- I had that feeling when I heard Mr. Q. And in this press appearance, it refers to tion came out? You have no knowledge of it Blumenthal say something, that I might be it being the Sunday before the Saturday, at all? doing that. February 21st, sometime in the middle of MR. McDANIEL: I don’t understand the question about— MR. GRAHAM: That would be my reply. He February. understood what I asked, and he answered, He indicates on the show, at least this arti- MR. GRAHAM: About her being a stalker, her being obsessed with the President, the and I’ll accept his answer and we’ll move on. cle recounts that he indicates, that the SENATOR SPECTER: Well, I think the ob- President could be in fact in ‘‘’a totally inno- President being like David Letterman in re- lationship to her. jection is mooted at this point. cent relationship in which the President was, MR. GRAHAM: Okay. in a sense, the victim of someone, rather like BY MR. GRAHAM: Q. You had no knowledge of how that all SENATOR SPECTER: I do—I do think that the woman who followed David Letterman happened in the press? to the extent you can be more precise, be- around.’’’ A. I have an idea how it started in the cause these articles do contain— Do you know how Mr. Lyons would come press. MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. to that conclusion? I know word travels fast, Q. Well, please share that with us. SENATOR SPECTER: —a lot of informa- but how would he know that? Do you have A. I believe it started on January 21st with tion. We’re still looking for that laser. any independent knowledge of how he would the publication of an article in Newsweek by MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. know that? BY MR. GRAHAM: Michael Isikoff that was posted on the World Q. And these—and the reason this comes A. What exactly is the question? Wide Web and faxed around to everyone in Q. Well, the question is Mr. Lyons is indi- up, Mr. Isikoff—excuse me—Mr. Blumenthal, the news media, in Washington, New York, is you’ve referenced the Isikoff article on the cating in the middle of February that the everywhere, and in the White House. And in truth of the matter may very well be that 21st, and my question goes to White House that article, Michael Isikoff reported the sources indicating that Ms. Lewinsky is a the President is in an ‘‘innocent relationship contents of what became known as the talk- in which the President was, in a sense, the stalker, the January 30th article, that she’s ing points. obsessed with the President, that she wears victim of someone, rather like the woman And there was a mystery at the time about who followed David Letterman around,’’ and tight skirts. who wrote the talking points. We know sub- What I’m trying to say is that you—you the question is that scenario of the President sequently that Monica Lewinsky wrote the being a victim of someone obsessed seems are not saying—it is not your testimony— talking points. And in that document, the that those White House sources are picking rather like the conversation you had with author of the talking points advises Linda the President on January the 21st. Do you up on the 21st article, are you? Tripp that she might refer to someone who A. I don’t know about any White House know how Mr. Lyons would have had that was stalking the ‘‘P’’, meaning the Presi- take on things? sources on these stories. dent, and after that story appeared, I believe Q. When you talked to Mr. Lyons, you MR. McDANIEL: Well, I object to a ques- there were a flood of stories and discussions never mentioned what time at all that Ms. tion that sort of loads up premises, Senators. about this, starting on ‘‘Nightline’’ that very Lewinsky was making demands on the Presi- That question sort of, you know, says, well, night and ‘‘Nightline’’ the next night and so dent and he had to rebuff her? this conversation is a lot like the one you on. And that’s my understanding from ob- A. Absolutely not. had with the President, and then asks the serving the media of how this started. Q. You never at one time told Mr. Lyons or question. And the danger to the witness is Q. How long have you been involved in the anyone else that the President felt like that that he’ll—by answering the question ac- media yourself? he was a victim much like the person in the cepts the premise. A. Before I joined the White House staff, I novel, Darkness at Noon? And I ask that if you want to ask him was a journalist for 27 years. MR. McDANIEL: Well, I object to that whether it’s like the conversation with the Q. Is it your testimony that the Isikoff ar- question. This witness has testified that he President, that’s a fair question, he’ll answer ticle on the 21st explains how White House told his wife and that he told White House it, but it ought to be broken out of there. sources contact reporters in late January counsel at a later date, and the question in- [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] and mid-February trying to explain that the cluded anyone else. So I think it— SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards President is a victim of a stalker, an ob- MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Strike that. and I disagree on the ruling, so we’re going sessed young lady, who is the product of a BY MR. GRAHAM: to take Senator Edwards and ask you to re- broken home? Is that your testimony? Q. Excluding those two people? phrase the question since it— A. No. A. Well, I believe I’ve asked—I’ve been [Laughter.] MR. BREUER: I’m going to object to the asked, and answered that, and I haven’t told MR. GRAHAM: Fair enough. form of the question. There is no evidence anyone else.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY February 4, 1999 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE S1253 Q. Was there— came about and the purpose of the strategy A. I don’t know. A. I didn’t tell anyone else. meetings. Q. Do you recall Ms. Willey giving a ‘‘60 Q. Was there ever an investigation at the The next question goes as follows: ‘‘And Minutes’’ interview? White House about how these stories came there were names of the women that you dis- A. Yes. out, supposedly? cussed in that context that there had been Q. Do you recall any discussions after the A. No. news stories about and public allegations of interview at a strategy meeting about Ms. Q. Was anybody ever fired? an affair with the President?’’ Willey? A. No. And your answer was? MR. BREUER: I want the record to be MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. A. ‘‘As I recall, we discussed Paula Jones, clear that the White House has a continuing Blumenthal. Kathleen Willey, we’ve discussed’’—and the objection as to this line of inquiry. THE WITNESS: I thank you. rest is redacted. SENATOR SPECTER: The record will so MR. ROGAN: No further questions. Q. Redacted—and that’s fine, that’s fine. note. MR. BREUER: Could we take a 5–minute And the question later on, on line 24: THE WITNESS: If you could repeat the break, Senator? ‘‘When you say that that was a complete and question, please. SENATOR SPECTER: We can. We will re- utter fraudulent allegation—’’, the answer is: MR. GRAHAM: Yes. cess for 5 minutes. ‘‘In my view, yes.’’ Right? THE WITNESS: Sorry. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off A. Well— BY MR. GRAHAM: the record at 11:24 a.m. Q. About a woman? Q. After the ‘‘60 Minutes’’ interview, was MR. McDANIEL: Senator, I must object to [Recess.] there ever a strategy meeting about what this, because I believe that question, clearly THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going on the she said? record at 11:40 a.m. from the context, refers to redacted mate- A. At one of the morning or evening meet- SENATOR SPECTER: Turn to White House rial— ings, we discussed the ‘‘60 Minutes’’ inter- MR. GRAHAM: Right. counsel, Mr. Lanny Breuer. view. MR. BREUER: Senators, the White House MR. McDANIEL: —which has been pre- served as secret by the grand jury, and I Q. And can you—I—I know it’s hard be- has no questions for Mr. Blumenthal. cause these meetings go on a lot. How—do SENATOR SPECTER: We had deferred one think it’s somewhat misleading to talk about a fraudulent allegation that the grand you know who was there on that occasion, line of questions which had been subject ob- who would be the players that would be jection and considerable conference, and we jury heard that Mr. Blumenthal testified about, which is clearly not in the record be- there? put it at the end of the transcript so it could A. They would be the same as before. I’d be be excised. Do you wish to— fore the Senate. SENATOR SPECTER: Well, it is unclear happy to enumerate them for you, if you MR. GRAHAM: Yes. want me to. SENATOR SPECTER: —proceed further? on the face of the record. So, Congressman Graham, if you could— Q. But the same as you previously testified MR. BREUER: May we approach off the to? record, Senators? MR. GRAHAM: The point I’m trying— SENATOR SPECTER: —excuse me, let me A. Yes. SENATOR SPECTER: Off the record. Q. Okay, that’s fine. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the just finish— MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Do you recall what the discussions were record at 11:41 a.m. SENATOR SPECTER: —if you could speci- about in terms of how to respond to the ‘‘60 [Discussion off the record.] fy on what is on the record that you’ve put Minutes’’ story? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back in up to now. A. Yes. on the record at 12:10 p.m. MR. GRAHAM: Okay. What I’m reading Q. Could you tell us? SENATOR SPECTER: The Senators have from, Senator, is—is a question and answer A. They were what our official spokes-peo- considered the matter, and in light of the and a redacted name, and the point I’m try- ple would say. references, albeit abbreviated, in the record ing to make is ever who that person was, the Q. Did they include anything else? and the generalization that answers—ques- allegation was considered to be fraudulent A. Yes. tions and answers would be permitted, re- based on your prior testimony. Q. Could you please tell us? serving the final judgment to the full Sen- THE WITNESS: That was—that was my A. There was a considerable complaining ate, we will permit Congressman Graham to testimony, that it was my view. about how, in the ‘‘60 Minutes’’ broadcast, question on pattern and practice with re- BY MR. GRAHAM: Bob Bennett was not given adequate time to spect to Ms. Willey. Q. And that leads to this question. Was speak and present his case, and how he was, MR. GRAHAM: Okay. Thank you. there ever a discussion in these strategy as I recall, poorly lighted. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS meetings where there was an admission that Q. Was there any discussion about what BY MR. GRAHAM: the allegation was believed to be true Ms. Willey said herself and how that should Q. Mr. Blumenthal, we’re really close to against the President in terms of relation- be responded to? the end here. If you could turn to Tab 5, page ship with other women? A. I don’t recall exactly. We just spoke 193. MR. BREUER: I’m going to object to the about what our official spokespeople should A. We have it. form of the question in that it’s referring to respond to. Q. Okay, thank you. other women. Even based on the discussion Q. Did anybody ever discuss the fact that And page 20, the last question, it’s in the that went off the record, I think that what Ms. Willey may have had a checkered past? right-hand corner. I’ll read the question, and Mr. Graham is doing now is certainly beyond A. No, absolutely not. We never discussed we’ll kind of follow the testimony. ‘‘Have any record in this case. the personal lives of any woman in those you ever had a discussion with people in the SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards meetings. White House or been present during any would like to hear the question repeated. Q. Did it ever come up as to, well, here’s meeting where the allegation has come up MR. GRAHAM: The strategy meetings— what we know about Kathleen Willey and that other women are fabricating an affair SENATOR SPECTER: Good idea? the President, or let’s go see what we can MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. with the President?’’ find out about Kathleen Willey and the BY MR. GRAHAM: President? Now, could you read the answer for me, Q. The strategy meetings involved press A. No. please? accounts of allegations between the Presi- A. Sure. My—my answer in the grand jury Q. Who had the letters that Kathleen Wil- dent and other women. The question is very is this: ‘‘We’ve discussed news stories that ley wrote to the President? simple. At any of those meetings, was it ever arose out of the Jones case, which was dis- A. I don’t know exactly. The White House conceded that the President did have in fact missed by the judge as having no basis, in had them. a relationship? Q. Isn’t it fair to say that somebody found which there were allegations made against MR. BREUER: Object. I object to the ques- those letters, kept those letters, and was the President, and these were stories that tion for the reasons I just previously stated. were in the press.’’ SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards ready to respond with those letters, if needed Q. ‘‘And you’’—’’And did you discuss those raises the concern that I think he’s correct to be? with the President?’’ on, that we have limited it to Willey, Ms. MR. BREUER: I’m going to object to the form of the question that it’s outside the You said, ‘‘No.’’ Willey. So, if you would—if you would proffer of the Manager. And the next question is: ‘‘So what form focus— did you discuss those news stories in?’’ MR. GRAHAM: Absolutely. [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] And your answer was? SENATOR SPECTER: —there— MR. McDANIEL: Yes. I object to the com- A. ‘‘In strategy meetings.’’ MR. GRAHAM: Absolutely. pound nature of the question, and— Q. Okay. ‘‘And that would include the SENATOR SPECTER: —it would be within SENATOR SPECTER: Could you rephrase daily meetings, the morning and the evening your proffer and what we have permitted. the question, Congressman Lindsey— meetings?’’ MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. Very well. MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. A. Yes. BY MR. GRAHAM: SENATOR SPECTER: —or, Graham? Q. And your answer was ‘‘Yes.’’ Q. In regards to Ms. Willey, is it fair to say MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. Now, within that context, I want to walk that the consensus of the group was that SENATOR SPECTER: I think that would through a bit how those strategy meetings these allegations were not true? solve your problem.

VerDate Mar 15 2010 21:42 Nov 01, 2013 Jkt 081600 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 0624 Sfmt 0634 E:\1999SENATE\S04FE9.REC S04FE9 mmaher on DSKCGSP4G1 with SOCIALSECURITY S1254 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD — SENATE February 4, 1999 BY MR. GRAHAM: (Pursuant to an order of January 26, THE ADMINISTRATION’S ECONOMIC AGENDA Q. There were letters written to Ms. Willey 1999, the following material was sub- Our new economic strategy was root- to the President that were released to the mitted at the desk during today’s ses- media. Is that correct? ed first and foremost in fiscal dis- A. Yes. sion:) cipline. We made hard fiscal choices in Q. Do you know who gathered those letters f 1993, sending signals to the market up and how they were gathered up? MESSAGES FROM THE PRESIDENT that we were serious about dealing MR. BREUER: Objection. with the budget deficits we had inher- Messages from the President of the SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards ited. The market responded by low- and I agree that the Congressman may ask United States were communicated to ering long-term interest rates. Lower the question. Overruled. the Senate by Mr. Williams, one of his interest rates in turn helped more peo- THE WITNESS: No. secretaries. BY MR. GRAHAM: ple buy homes and borrow for college, EXECUTIVE MESSAGES REFERRED Q. Would it be fair to say, using common helped more entrepreneurs to start sense, that somebody was planning to answer As in executive session the Presiding businesses, and helped more existing Ms. Willey by having those letters to offer to Officer laid before the Senate messages businesses to invest in new technology the press? from the President of the United and equipment. America’s economic MR. BREUER: Objection. States submitting one nomination success has been fueled by the biggest MR. McDANIEL: It’s argumentative. which was referred to the Committee boom in private sector investment in MR. BREUER: It certainly is. on Agriculture, Nutrition, and For- SENATOR SPECTER: Would you repeat decades—more than $1 trillion in cap- that question? estry. ital was freed for private sector invest- BY MR. GRAHAM: (The nomination received today is ment. In past expansions, government Q. The question is: Mr. Blumenthal, do you printed at the end of the Senate pro- bought more and spent more to drive believe it’s a fair assumption to make that ceedings.) the economy. During this expansion, somebody in the White House made a con- f government spending as a share of the scious effort to go seek out the letters be- tween the President and Ms. Willey and use 1998 ANNUAL REPORT OF THE economy has fallen. in response to her allegations? COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVIS- The second part of our strategy has [Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.] ERS—MESSAGE FROM THE been to invest in our people. A global THE WITNESS: Well, that’s an opin— PRESIDENT—PM 3 economy driven by information and MS. MARSH: Wait, wait, wait. fast-paced technological change cre- MR. McDANIEL: Please, Mr. Blumenthal. The PRESIDING OFFICER laid be- THE WITNESS: Yes. fore the Senate the following message ates ever greater demand for skilled SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards from the President of the United workers. That is why, even as we bal- says, and I agree with him, that you ought to States, together with an accompanying anced the budget, we substantially in- direct it to somebody with specific knowl- report; which was referred to the Joint creased our annual investment in edu- edge so you don’t— Economic Committee. cation and training. We have opened BY MR. GRAHAM: ECONOMIC REPORT OF THE PRESIDENT the doors of college to all Americans, Q. Do you have any knowledge— with tax credits and more affordable SENATOR SPECTER: —deal totally with To the Congress of the United States: speculation. I am pleased to report that the Amer- student loans, with more work-study BY MR. GRAHAM: ican economy today is healthy and grants and more Pell grants, with edu- Q. Do you have any specific knowledge of strong. Our Nation is enjoying the cation IRAs and the new HOPE Schol- that event occurring, somebody gathering longest peacetime economic expansion arship tax credit that more than 5 mil- the letters up, having them ready to be able in its history, with almost 18 million lion Americans will receive this year. to respond to Ms. Willey if she ever said any- new jobs since 1993, wages rising at Even as we closed the budget gap, we thing? have expanded the earned income tax A. No. twice the rate of inflation, the highest Q. You have no knowledge whatsoever of home ownership ever, the smallest wel- credit for almost 20 million low-income how those letters came into the possession of fare rolls in 30 years, and unemploy- working families, giving them hope the White House to be released to the press? ment and inflation at their lowest lev- and helping lift them our of poverty. A. No, I don’t. I don’t know— els in three decades. Even as we cut government spending, MR. GRAHAM: Thank you. I— This expansion, unlike recent pre- we have raised investments in a wel- THE WITNESS: —who had them— vious ones, is both wide and deep. All fare-to-work jobs initiative and in- MR. GRAHAM: —don’t have any— vested $24 billion in our children’s THE WITNESS: —in the White House. income groups, from the richest to the MR. GRAHAM: —further questions. poorest, have seen their incomes rise health initiative. f since 1993. The typical family income is Third, to build the American econ- up more than $3,500, adjusted for infla- omy, we have focused on opening for- PROGRAM tion. African-American and Hispanic eign markets and expanding exports to Mr. LOTT. Under the order just households, who were left behind dur- our trading partners around the world. granted, the Senate will meet again as ing the last expansion, have also seen Until recently, fully one-third of the the Court of Impeachment on Satur- substantial increases in income. strong economic growth America has day. On Saturday, the Senate will hear Our Nation’s budget is balanced, for enjoyed in the 1990s has come from ex- presentations from the House man- the first time in a generation, and we ports. That trade has been aided by 270 agers and the White House counsel for are entering the second year of an era trade agreements we have signed in the not to exceed 6 hours. After those pres- of surpluses: our projections show that past 6 years. entations, the Senate will resume its we will close out the 1999 fiscal year ADDRESSING OUR NATION’S ECONOMIC with a surplus of $79 billion, the largest business on Monday for 6 hours, begin- CHALLENGES ning at 1 p.m. in the history of the United States. We We have created a strong, healthy, f are on course for budget surpluses for many years to come. and truly global economy—an economy ADJOURNMENT UNTIL 10 A.M., These eeconomic successes are not that is a leader for growth in the SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1999 accidental. They are the result of an world. But common sense, experience, Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I now economic strategy that we have pur- and the example of our competitors ask the Senate stand in adjournment sued since 1993. It is a strategy that abroad show us that we cannot afford under the previous order, and ask that rests on three pillars: fiscal discipline, to be complacent. Now, at this moment all Senators remain at their desks investments in education and tech- of great plenty, is precisely the time to until the Chief Justice departs the nology, and expanding exports to the face the challenges of the next century. Chamber. growing world market. Continuing We must maintain our fiscal dis- There being no objection, at 4:31 with this proven strategy is the best cipline by saving Social Security for p.m., the Senate, sitting as a Court of way to maintain our prosperity and the 21st century—thereby laying the Impeachment, adjourned until Satur- meet the challenges of the 21st cen- foundations for future economic day, February 6, 1999, at 10 a.m. tury. growth.

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