Wednesday Volume 682 21 October 2020 No. 124

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 21 October 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1043 21 OCTOBER 2020 1044 House of Commons Female Entrepreneurs: Government Support Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What steps she is taking Wednesday 21 October 2020 to support female entrepreneurs. [907850]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): All the Government’s business support schemes are open to eligible businesses from all regions and backgrounds, PRAYERS including female entrepreneurs. The start-up loans programme has provided more than 30,000 loans worth [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] over £239 million to female entrepreneurs as of June Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, 2020. Additionally, we are working with the private 4 June). sector to deliver the eight initiatives of the Rose review. [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] Great progress has been made over the past year, with the joint NatWest and Be the Business female entrepreneurs Speaker’s Statement mentoring programme to be launched soon.

Mr Speaker: Order. I remind colleagues that deferred Kate Griffiths: I thank the Minister for the detailed Divisions will take place today on two statutory instruments measures he set out. More women work in sectors and in the Members’ Library between 11.30 am and 3.30 pm. industries that are hardest hit by the covid-19 crisis. Can Members will cast their votes by placing the completed he outline, with a particular view to childcare, the help Division slip in one of the ballot boxes provided. I that we can offer women with successful businesses and remind colleagues of the importance of social distancing careers to get them through the difficult months ahead? during the deferred Divisions and ask them to pick up a Division slip from the Vote Office and fill it in before Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for her concern, they reach the Library if possible. The result will be especially about childcare. We have already introduced announced in the Chamber at a convenient moment 30 hours of free childcare for eligible working parents after the Divisions are over. of three and four-year-olds. We have ensured that wraparound childcare remains open, to support parents to continue to work under all three covid levels. As set Oral Answers to Questions out in our manifesto, the Department for Education will be investing £1 billion from 2021 to help create more high-quality wraparound and holiday childcare WOMEN AND EQUALITIES places, including before and after school and during the school holidays. The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— Covid-19: Support for Older People

Equal Access to Opportunity Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): What steps her Department is taking to support older people during Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): What the covid-19 outbreak. [907851] steps the Government are taking to ensure equal access to opportunity. [907849] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]: This Government are The Minister for Women and Equalities (Elizabeth Truss): determined to support older people during the pandemic, We know that the average hourly wages are more than and my Department is working to support people of all 30% higher in than in Northern Ireland and ages to remain in and return to work. We have published regions such as the east midlands and the north-east. guidance on working safely during the covid-19 pandemic That is why we are working to level up Britain. and continue to work with national employer organisations Dehenna Davison: We often see evidence that white on improving support for the over-50s. Our £30 billion working-class children have some of the worst educational plan for jobs provides back-to-work support for all outcomes—for example, in GCSE results and the numbers ages, including doubling the number of work coaches, going on to higher education. Does my right hon. increasing sector-based work academy places and a new Friend agree that working-class children in communities Department for Work and Pensions job finding support such as Bishop Auckland who face poor outcomes service. deserve the full backing of the Government Equalities Office? Peter Grant [V]: In my Glenrothes and Central Fife constituency, over 2,000 pensioner households are losing Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. out on £5.4 million in pension credit payments every The attainment score at GCSE for white British children year because they do not know that they are entitled to who receive free school meals is lower than the equivalent them. Fife Council launched an uptake campaign in the for black and Asian children who receive free school Glenrothes area, but it was curtailed because of the meals. That is why I have asked the Equality Hub to covid pandemic; I have to declare an interest, as I am expand beyond protected characteristics and strengthen married to the chair of the council’s Glenrothes area its focus on geography and social background to identify committee. The Scottish Government have published barriers to opportunity and success. an uptake strategy for the benefits under their control. 1045 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1046

Will the Minister agree to urge her Cabinet colleagues EllieReeves[V]:Workingmumshavebeendisproportionately to enshrine in law a duty for the UK Government to do impacted by the pandemic, with a recent report by the the same for pension credits and other benefits that are Institute for Fiscal Studies finding that they are more controlled at Westminster? likely to quit or lose their jobs and typically perform a larger share of childcare and household duties than Mims Davies: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to men. One of my constituents spent lockdown home know that on 6 May, we launched the “Apply for Pension schooling her two children as well as caring for her Credit” service, which is an online claim service that elderly shielding mother. Excluded from most of the supplements the existing telephone and—[Inaudible.] financial support packages, she now faces winding up the company she set up. I have heard what the Minister Mr Speaker: We will go to the SNP spokesperson, had to say, but it does not go far enough. What additional Anne McLaughlin. urgent measures will he take to ensure that progress in female employment is not set back by decades? Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP): I think somebody else might need to answer this question! Paul Scully: There are 1.8 million more women in It is estimated that there is more than £2 billion out work than in 2010, and it is important that we capture there every year that is the legal right of older people on that. As I have said, on childcare responsibilities, which those islands. Pension credit does not make anybody are so important, we have introduced 30 hours of free wealthy, but it can make the difference between the childcare, we have ensured that wraparound childcare loneliness and misery that poverty brings and the joy of remains available in each of the tiers and we will continue simply being able to engage in life again. Will the to invest to help create more high-quality, wraparound Minister responsible for fighting for those older people and holiday childcare places so that mothers are not agree to take this on as an equalities issue and put disadvantaged. resources into ensuring that people have the knowledge and support—including support in using the online : The Women’s Budget Group last week service she mentioned—to access what is, after all, a highlighted that working-class women specifically face legal entitlement? the biggest cuts to working hours since the beginning of the pandemic, with 43% reporting having had their Mr Speaker: We are now, I hope, heading back to hours cut to zero since April. Could the Minister set out Minister Davies. what specific support he is putting in place to stop these women falling into poverty, because clearly it cannot be Mims Davies: Apologies. Thank you, Mr Speaker. right that working-class women are so adversely affected by the pandemic? In supporting our older people, pension credit is an absolute priority for this Government, as I mentioned earlier. In fact, about 1 million pensioners—close to Paul Scully: This is important, and we know that that number—who are pension credit customers will certain sectors are the worst affected. It is important receive a winter windfall of £140 off their fuel bills, that we actually do everything we can with “Hands, thanks to the Government working with energy firms to face, space” to make sure that our economy can start to cut costs. This Government are determined to do all we open again and create opportunities, but we have also can to support pensioners, and the DWP cross-match put in support with universal credit, the coronavirus job these pension credit customers with the data held by retention scheme, the self-employed income support pension suppliers. I am sure that we will continue to scheme and the wider winter economy to help everybody, support pensioners as widely as we can through this but especially the disadvantaged women that the hon. pandemic and ongoing.1 Gentleman describes.

Covid-19: Women Leaving the Workforce Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con): Women make up a significant proportion of those employed in the fitness, leisure and wellbeing Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): What industry. Can my hon. Friend tell me what work he is steps she is taking to support women at risk of leaving doing with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media the workforce due to the economic effect of the covid-19 and Sport to recognise that physical, mental and financial outbreak. [907852] wellbeing go hand in hand? The sector is now having to manage variable lockdowns, and there will be a knock-on Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): What steps she is impact if businesses cannot recover financially and taking to support women at risk of leaving the workforce resume their role of contributing more than £2 billion due to the economic effect of the covid-19 outbreak. annually to the nation’s economy. [907862] Paul Scully: Weknow that physical activity is absolutely The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, crucial to the wellbeing of our nation as well as to our Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): The economy.We have been working closely with the national Government have taken significant steps to protect jobs sports council, Sport , to continue promoting for women with the coronavirus job retention scheme health and fitness during lockdown. This includes the supporting 4.5 million jobs done by women. We continue Join the Movement campaign that it has launched, to support women in the labour market through our which provides tips, advice and guidance to tell people job support and bonus schemes. We have also committed how they can keep or get active in and around the to extending redundancy protections for new mothers home. As I have said, it is so important that we keep as returning to work and to make flexible working the default. many gyms open as possible, where possible, but ultimately, 1.[Official Report, 2 November 2020, Vol. 683, c. 2MC.] 1047 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1048 this is about getting the economy up and running again. The Minister for Equalities (Kemi Badenoch): The UK Lives are first in our priorities, but the economy and continues to be recognised as one of the most progressive livelihoods must be absolutely up there. countries globally for LGBT rights. The Government recently announced £3.2 million of new funding to help Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: The Work Commonwealth Governments and civil society to repeal Foundation has reported that 58% of workers in the outdated discriminatory laws against LGBT people. We retail sector are women and these are some of our work closely with the Council of Europe and the UN, in lowest-paid workers, but due to most of them working additional to co-chairing the Equal Rights Coalition, on part-time or temporary contracts,hundreds of thousands and we remain committed to delivering an ambitious of women working in retail will not even be eligible for international LGBT conference. redundancy pay. What plans does the Minister have in mind to mitigate the likelihood of disproportionate Crispin Blunt [V]: My hon. Friend will understand numbers of women being made redundant with no that the decision not to amend the Gender Recognition financial support available to them? Act 2004 will inevitably see the fall significantly in the tables of those countries that are Paul Scully: As I say, it is so important that we get the seen to be committed to the delivery of equality for economy up and running again, and we can do that LGBT+ people.Will she and her Department do something only by people joining us and working with us on to address that, by committing to the delivery of an hands, face, space, to ensure that we reduce the transmission 18-week waiting time for gender identity clinics and rate and save as many jobs as possible. We have launched development services for children, as an outcome of the a job support scheme, and that, plus universal credit, review by Dr Hilary Cass? means that the lowest paid employees can have around 80% of their salary covered between those two schemes. Kemi Badenoch: We have noted my hon. Friend’s concerns about the Government’s decision, and we assure Education: Equality of Opportunity him that the UK has a strong record on LGBT rights. The wait for gender identity clinics has been very long, Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): and the Government are looking at that issue. I will not What discussions she has had with the Secretary of make a specific commitment at the Dispatch Box, but I State for Education on ensuring equality of opportunity recognise the concern that has been raised. We will in the education system. [907853] continue to do what we can to speed things up.

The Minister for Universities (Michelle Donelan): As Covid-19: Risk and Outcome Disparities our Prime Minister often says, talent is equally distributed, but opportunity is not. This Government have made it Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): What our mission to rectify that, and equality of opportunity recent discussions she has had with (a) Cabinet colleagues lies at the heart of the work by the Department for and (b) stakeholders on tackling the disparities in the Education, including opportunity areas, access to higher risk and outcomes of covid-19. [907855] education work and reforms to further education such as the flagship T-levels. We recognise that education has The Minister for Equalities (Kemi Badenoch): In June, an unparalleled ability to create and unlock opportunities the Prime Minister asked me to lead cross-Government across the nation. work on this issue, with a particular focus on ethnicity. I will update the House on the findings of my work in full Mr Holden: In North West Durham, we see lower tomorrow. The work involved extensive engagement by educational outcomes, especially among white working the Race Disparity Unit and me, with colleagues and class pupils, who are getting disproportionately poor external stakeholders, including academics and experts results. What measures are the Government taking to from University College London, the London School ensure better attainment at the ages of 16 and 18 and in of Economics, Oxford University, medical experts from later life, and not only to deliver greater opportunities the British Medical Association and many ministerial for individuals, but to level up all our communities? colleagues. We will continue to redouble our efforts, and it is crucial that we make evidence-based decisions on Michelle Donelan: It is vital that we raise school this important work. standards and outcomes across the education sector and that we raise and level up our country. That is why Shaun Bailey: One unfortunate impact of covid-19 we established Opportunity North East, and tomorrow has been the impact on attainment in our communities, I will chair a board meeting to discuss that work. My particularly white working class communities where hon. Friend is a tremendous advocate for his constituency, educational attainment gaps have struggled during this and I and other Education Ministers will continue to crisis. I represent Princes End, which has one of the work with him to ensure that the young people of highest rates of child poverty in the . Will North West Durham get the chances and choices they my hon. Friend assure me that, as part of that work deserve. across government, she will look particularly at ensuring that opportunity gaps as a result of covid-19 are not Equal Rights for LGBT People: widened? International Promotion Kemi Badenoch: My hon. Friend is right to raise the Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): What steps she is taking importance of children of all backgrounds being in to maintain the UK’s international promotion of equal school and their educational attainment and wellbeing rights for LGBT+ people. [907854] more broadly. The Government have been clear that 1049 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1050 limiting attendance at schools should be a last resort. everyone through free trade agreements. My hon. Friend We are providing laptops for the most disadvantaged is absolutely right: CPTPP contains important provisions pupils and 4G routers for families who do not already to open up trade for women, and of course Vietnam is a have mobile or broadband, for example. More broadly, key part of that agreement. on disparities in attainment, the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities is looking at outcomes for the Abortion Clinics: Protection from Intimidation whole population. That means ethnic minorities and or Protest white British people as well. The commission will set out a new positive agenda for change and look at the Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): issues that my hon. Friend has raised. What discussions she has had with Cabinet colleagues on protecting women attending abortion clinics from Science, Technology and Emerging Industries: Girls intimidation or protest. [907858] and Young Women The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home (South Ribble) (Con): What steps Department (Victoria Atkins): The Government are clear she is taking to encourage girls and young women to that it is unacceptable that women seeking or staff lead in science, technology and emerging industries. providing healthcare advice should feel intimidated or [907856] harassed. The has been keeping this important matter under review. We are now considering again The Minister for Women and Equalities (Elizabeth Truss): whether more should be done to protect those accessing We are making good progress in getting more girls and or providing abortion services, and we have reached out women into science, technology, engineering and maths, to service providers and the police to understand their with a 31% increase in girls studying STEM subjects experiences of these protests, but the impact on women since 2010 and 1 million women now working in core is of course at the centre of our considerations. STEM occupations. Dr Huq: That is a very encouraging reply. Right now, Katherine Fletcher: Professor Sarah Gilbert in vaccine up and down the country, women are being intimidated research; Kate Bingham in vaccine operations; Baroness and police are having their time taken up by 40 Days for Harding in testing; Dr Jenny Harries in medicine—all Life, an anti-choice group that is running a 40-day fantastic examples of highly qualified professionals leading protest outside clinics. France, Australia and Canada the UK’s response to this once-in-a-century pandemic, have legislation on this. I am encouraged by what the and they all happen to be women in STEM. Does my Minister says. Will she please follow suit and take heed right hon. Friend agree that they are setting a wonderful of the Demonstrations (Abortion Clinics) Bill, which I example for future generations of girls and boys in introduced in June? There is overwhelming support in South Ribble, and beyond? the House for us to do the same here.

Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Victoria Atkins: I have the pleasure of meeting the They are a huge asset to our country, but having more hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich women in STEM is also helping to close the wage gap and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) later today to and helping our economy to recover post covid. Around discuss this topic. The hon. Lady will know the meticulous 35% of the wage gap can be overcome if we get more approach that we have applied to this important issue. women working in high-paid occupations and sectors There is a balance to be struck with the right to express such as engineering and technology. and to have freedom of speech, but clearly the impact International Trade: Business Opportunities for Women on women and staff working in these centres is really important. I am pleased that public spaces protection orders are working in her area and two others—Manchester, Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): What I understand, has just received an order,or is implementing steps she is taking to increase business opportunities for an order, as well. We very much have to balance those women through international trade. [907857] matters in mind, but I look forward to continuing this The Minister for Women and Equalities (Elizabeth Truss): discussion in only a few hours’ time. As much as £250 billion could be added to the UK Topical Questions economy if women started and scaled businesses at the same rate as men. I am determined that trade should play its part in opening up greater opportunities for [907889] Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): If women, both in the UK and across the world. she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. Mrs Wheeler: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Can she tell me what the UK will do to build The Minister for Women and Equalities (Elizabeth Truss): on our close ties with Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam Alongside sex, race and sexual orientation, geography to expand trading opportunities, especially for women, and social economic status can affect opportunity. I particularly given Vietnam’s membership of the want to widen the focus of our understanding of equality comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific to include outcomes for white working-class children, partnership? so we can ensure we are levelling up our country. I have therefore asked the Equality Hub to consider the importance Elizabeth Truss: First, we have appointed a splendid of geography and background alongside factors such as trade envoy for those three countries, who is going to do sex, ethnicity and disability. That will make sure we a brilliant job promoting opportunities for women and truly level up Britain. 1051 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1052

Mrs Drummond: Does my right hon. Friend agree KemiBadenoch:Wehavebeenlookingatthedisproportionate that the Equality and Human Rights Commission should impact the virus has had on very many groups. That is be focused on its responsibility to enforce equality and not a group where we have seen a disproportionate human rights law? impact in terms of the effects of the virus. What has impacted that community is their inability, like the rest Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I of the population, to access healthcare services. We hope am delighted that we have been able to put forward that will be addressed through how we are managing local Baroness Kishwer Falkner as our preferred candidate lockdowns and being able to keep pressure off the NHS. to chair the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I know she is committed to making sure the commission’s [907891] Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): Will my focus is on enforcing our important equality laws. hon. Friend detail what steps her Department is taking to ensure that girls can access period products during Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab) [V]: The Equality the pandemic, especially when only 41% of schools are Act 2010 sets out that the Government must seek to taking advantage of the Government’s offer of free advance equality of opportunity in relation to its functions, period products? In Environmenstrual Week, does she yet throughout the pandemic Ministers have repeatedly agree that, wherever possible, those products should be failed to do so. It is vital that the Government take free of plastic? proactive steps to prevent the disproportionate impact of covid on disabled, black, Asian and minority ethnic Kemi Badenoch: The Government are taking a range people. Failure to do so is neglect. It is discriminatory, of actions to ensure that everyone can access affordable and it is unlawful. What evidence does the Minister period products. We are providing fully funded access have that her Government are fulfilling their public to free period products in schools and colleges across sector equality duty as set out in the Equality Act? England. The scheme remained in operation during The Minister for Equalities (Kemi Badenoch): It is partial school closures, and we expect uptake to have completely false to say that the Government have not significantly increased as schools have fully opened. acted and to deliberately ignore the significant measures The scheme provides a wide range of products, including we have put in place to reduce the spread of the virus in environmentally friendly tampons and pads, alongside all communities across the United Kingdom, which we reusable products such as menstrual cups and reusable have repeatedly stated in this House. As I mentioned pads. earlier, I will be making a full oral statement tomorrow, but it is known that we have taken many key measures Prime Minister to ensure that NHS frontline staff—in particular, those from ethnic minority backgrounds—are best protected and to ensure we fully understand the links between the The Prime Minister was asked— virus and ethnicity. Engagements Marsha De Cordova: Two and a half thousand deaths could have been avoided during the first wave of the [907909] Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) pandemic had people from black, Asian and minority (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday ethnic communities been adequately protected. Last 21 October. month, I wrote to the Minister asking what steps her Government had taken to address the disproportionate The Prime Minister (): I know the thoughts impact of covid, but I have yet to receive a reply and we of the whole House will be with the hon. Member for are now in a second wave. The Minister says she will be Bolton South East (). I am sure Members giving a statement tomorrow, but I ask her as it is oral from across the House will want to join me in wishing questions today. She still has not given an update on her a speedy recovery. progress in implementing the recommendations of the This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Public Health England report. It has been over four months, and others. In addition to my duties in this House, so will she give us an update on the seven recommendations I shall have further such meetings later today. and when they will be fully implemented? Catherine West: I associate myself with those kind Kemi Badenoch: The shadow Minister has written remarks on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for many letters to me over the past four months, and I have Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). replied to them. It is simply untrue to say that she has not received a reply. She knows the work we are doing is My constituents are reeling from the 9% contraction progressing the recommendations throughout government. of the economy since March this year. Unemployment The oral statement tomorrow will give ample time for has sky-rocketed and joblessness in Haringey is the me to fully address and explain all the work the Government highest in the capital. Unfortunately, we are at the same have been doing and what the evidence has shown us. I time facing the idea that there could be a congestion tax encourage her to attend the oral statement tomorrow, forced on an extra 4 million Londoners by this Government. because there is very much that she could learn on this These Londoners are already facing the double whammy topic. of covid and financial ruin. Will the Prime Minister please immediately stop the imposition of this dreadful [907893] Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Will plan? I look forward to his answer. the Minister tell us what assessment has been made, and what steps are being taken, of the impact the The Prime Minister: I must respectfully inform the increasing numbers of covid-19 cases and the pandemic hon. Lady that the current had are having on the LGBTQ+ community? effectively bankrupted TfL before coronavirus had even 1053 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1054 hit and left a massive black hole in its finances. Any below 1. On the same day, the Prime Minister himself need to make up that deficit is entirely down to him. It said that there was only a chance of getting infection is entirely his responsibility.Anyexpansion of the congestion rates down. charge or any other measure taken to improve the That goes to the heart of the issue in Greater Manchester finances of TfL are entirely the responsibility of the and elsewhere. The widespread fear is that tier 3 is the bankrupt current Labour Mayor of London. worst of all worlds: it brings significant economic harm without getting the virus sufficiently under control to [907912] Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): People the length exit tier 3. So instead of being a solution, tier 3 is a and breadth of the country have made many sacrifices gateway to weeks and weeks, or more likely months and over the last few months to try to suppress covid-19, but months, of agony from which there is no likely exit. Can infection rates are increasing fast and Buckinghamshire the Prime Minister not see the problem if there is not a may soon find itself in tier 2. Can my right hon. Friend clear exit? tell the people of my Aylesbury constituency how long we would be expected to stay there, what additional The Prime Minister: I am sorry, but I have made it help there would be for local businesses, and, crucially, absolutely clear that a part of the country going into what the route out would be? tier 3 is in there only for 28 days; we will review it after 28 days. Areas that have gone into tier 3 are, I believe, The Prime Minister: I hope I can reassure my hon. already making progress, and areas where there are Friend by telling him that the incidence in the Vale of restrictions in place are also showing signs of progress. Aylesbury is in fact less than half the England average. We are pursuing a local—a regional—approach, which The way forward for constituents in the Vale of Aylesbury is the sensible approach for this country. That is what and everywhere else is for everyone to keep following the epidemiology supports. It is what the deputy chief the guidance, observing the new restrictions and, obviously, medical officer supported last night. washing hands, wearing a face covering in enclosed Again, I want to thank local leadership in Merseyside, spaces and keeping a sensible distance. in Lancashire, actually in London, in the west midlands and elsewhere for what they are doing. It is a bit (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I incoherent of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to thank the Prime Minister for his remarks about my attack local lockdowns when he wants to plunge the hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin whole country back into a damaging lockdown for weeks Qureshi). on end, and he has no clue about how he would propose Prime Minister, how does an area which goes into to get the country out of that—does he? tier 3 restrictions get out of those restrictions? Keir Starmer: I appreciate that there will be a review The Prime Minister: The simplest and most effective every 28 days, but if the R rate has not come below 1, way for areas to get out of those restrictions is, of then the infection rate is still going up, the numbers are course, to get the R down to 1 or below, and I am very going up, the admissions are going up, the numbers in pleased to say that some areas are already having a hospital are going up and the deaths are going up. Is the considerable effect with the measures that they are Prime Minister seriously saying that he would take a taking. tier 3 area out of tier 3 with the R above 1? I do not think so. Keir Starmer: Can I press the Prime Minister on that Let me spell out what that means. On Friday,thousands answer? If the infection rate, R, in a tier 3 area has not of people in Greater Manchester—taxi drivers, pub and come below 1, will it be possible in any circumstances hospitality workers, people working in betting shops, for that area to come out of tier 3—if the R has not the self-employed and freelancers—will either be out of come below 1? work or face significant pay cuts. That is the reality on Friday in Greater Manchester. But their rent and their The Prime Minister: Obviously, the R is one of the mortgage will not be lower; their food and their heating measures that we look at. We take a decision based on a bills will not be lower—and that could last for months. number of things including the R—also, of course, rates of infection, rates of admission to hospital and Why can the Prime Minister and the Chancellor not other data. But the most important thing is for areas understand that? They should stop bargaining with that do go into tier 3—and I am very grateful to local people’s lives, stop dividing communities and provide leadership in the areas that have gone into tier 3, the support that is needed in Manchester. because it is the right thing for them to do, the right thing for their constituents, the right thing to save lives ThePrimeMinister:IamveryproudthatthisGovernment —when they are able to make progress, then, of course, have already given Greater Manchester £1.1 billion in they will come out of tier 3. As the right hon. and learned support for business, £200 million in extra un-ring-fenced Gentleman knows full well, the measures that are put in funding, £50 million to tackle infections in care homes, place are reviewed every 28 days. £20 million for Test and Trace, and another £22 million for the local response that we announced yesterday. Keir Starmer: I am now confused by the Prime Minister’s Yesterday, the Mayor of Greater Manchester was offered answer. If it is not the R rate under 1, what is it? a further £60 million, which he turned down, having had Millions of people want to know the answer to that no encouragement to support it, I may say, from the question. Millions of them are in tier 3 and millions right hon. and learned Gentleman. more are likely to go into tier 3. They really need to I can tell the House today that that cash will be know. On Friday, the chief scientific officer said that distributed to the boroughs of Greater Manchester. I tier 3 on its own certainly is not enough to get the R rate thank right hon. and hon. Members across the House, 1055 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1056 including my hon. Friends the Members for Heywood constituencies for millions of people in tiers 2 and 3, and Middleton (Chris Clarkson), for Bolton West (Chris with no exit; or put in place a two to three week time- Green), for Bolton North East (), for Bury limited circuit break to break the cycle and bring the South (), for Bury North (James virus back under control. Daly), for Cheadle (Mary Robinson), for Leigh (James Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland—in part—have Grundy), for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham chosen that path. With half term starting this Friday, Brady) and for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg) for the support this may be the last opportunity for the Prime Minister that they have given in this matter. to put in place an effective circuit break. The Prime Minister was too slow in the first phase of the pandemic; Keir Starmer: This is a Prime Minister who can pay he is being too slow again. We cannot repeat this £7,000 a day for consultants on Track and Trace, which mistake. Will he act in the public interest and take the is not working; who can find £43 million for a garden opportunity to put in place a circuit break this Friday? bridge that was never built; but who cannot find £5 million for the people of Greater Manchester. I really think the The Prime Minister: We will do whatever it takes to Prime Minister has crossed a Rubicon here, not just in get this country through the crisis, with or without the the miserly way that he has treated Greater Manchester, support of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I but in the grubby take-it-or-leave-it way that these local have explained why I do not believe that his policy is the deals are being done. It is corrosive to public trust to pit right one for the country, because it would involve region against region, mayor against mayor,council against closing schools and shuttering businesses, with all the council and ask them to trade away their businesses and psychological and emotional damage that a lockdown jobs. We need a one nation approach to replace these of that kind brings. He cannot say how many circuit endless local battles with clear national criteria and proper breakers he thinks would be necessary. He cannot say support for jobs. Labour’s motion this afternoon would how long they would go on. He cannot say how much do that. Why will the Prime Minister not support it? damage they would do to the UK economy and to people’s mental health. The Prime Minister: I am proud of the one nation We, on the other hand, want to go on with our Conservative support that we have given to the entire common-sensical approach, which is a local and regional country: £200 billion in support for jobs and livelihoods approach, keeping kids in school and keeping our economy across the whole of the country already, and a further moving, because that is the way to get the whole of our £9.9 billion now for the job support scheme. It is this country through this crisis together so that all the regions Government who have cut VAT for business and deferred of the country, particularly those regions that are now, business rates. There is no other country in Europe alas, under tier 3 restrictions, bounce back strongly where so much support and so much help has been together. given to the population to get through this crisis, and we will continue to do that. It is the height of absurdity Mr Speaker: Let us head up to Cheshire, and Edward that the right hon. and learned Gentleman stands up Timpson. and attacks the economic consequences of the measures we are obliged to take across some parts of the country [907913] (Eddisbury) (Con) [V]: After when he wants to turn the lights out with a full national recent positive progress, covid has disproportionately lockdown, taking kids—[Interruption.] That was his and adversely affected participation levels in female policy last week anyway, wasn’t it? Perhaps he could sport and physical activity. To help to reverse that, will confirm that that is still his policy. Is that what he wants my right hon. Friend lend his support to the development to do? of the first ever women’s and girls’ football national centre of excellence in Winsford in my constituency—a Keir Starmer: At his press conference yesterday, the £70 million project that he has previously expressed Prime Minister produced heat maps across the country enthusiasm for—and help to build female grass-roots showing that the infection rate was up in all ages and sport back better? across all regions, and particularly showing regions that have been in the equivalent of tier 2 restrictions for The Prime Minister: This is a very exciting project, weeks, if not months, moving into tier 3. If they are and I welcome Cheshire FA’s commitment to providing moving into tier 3, tier 2 has not worked, because if a new world-class facility for women’s and girls’ football. tier 2 had worked, they should be going into tier 1. I look forward to the proposed opening of the centre in Winsford. So tier 2 goes to tier 3, and tier 3 has no end, because there is no prospect or confidence in the R rate coming Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) [V]: below 1—and I do not believe that a tier 3 region will My thoughts are very much with the hon. Member for come out of those restrictions unless R is below 1 and Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). I hope she makes while the numbers are still going up. So we now have a a speedy recovery. stark choice. Next week, just as the pandemic is worsening, the By the way, Prime Minister, Cornwall is the only Tory Government will scrap the furlough scheme in a place—possibly with the Isle of Wight—where the infection move that will cause a wave of mass redundancies rate today is less than it was in Greater Manchester across the United Kingdom. Meanwhile, behind closed when it went into local restrictions, so this idea that doors the Prime Minister is complaining that he cannot some areas are immune is wrong. get by on his £150,000 salary. If the Prime Minister is So there is a stark choice: carry on with the Prime finding life such a struggle, how on earth does he expect Minister’s approach, which will lead to weeks and weeks many workers to get by on just £5.84 an hour when the and months and months of prolonged agony in everyone’s Tory cuts to furlough sink in? 1057 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1058

The Prime Minister: Actually, I am proud of what we The Prime Minister: Of course I will do whatever I have done to support people on low incomes throughout can to help in the particular case that the right hon. this period and, indeed, before. It was this Government Gentleman raises. I do not know whether the tricycle he who raised the living wage by record amounts, and we mentions is eligible for a number of the schemes that I have just increased universal credit by around £1,000 a can immediately call to mind, but if he cares to write to year. The right hon. Gentleman makes the point about me, I will of course answer immediately. furlough; as he knows, if universal credit is combined with the job support scheme that we have just announced, MrSpeaker:WenowheaduptoHarrowforBobBlackman workers will be getting 80% of their existing salary. We to land his question. will get this country through this crisis and we will [907919] (Harrow East) (Con): Thank continue to support people of low incomes throughout you, ground control. the period. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be well Ian Blackford: I am afraid the Prime Minister just aware of the negotiations going on between the Department does not get it. Yesterday, we saw his total disregard for for Transport and the current Mayor of London on a the people of Greater Manchester—a Tory attitude that further bail-out for Transport for London. The current people in Scotland are all too familiar with. Millions of Mayor is demanding an eye-watering £5.65 billion to families are struggling to get by and this Tory Government keep TfL running for the next 18 months, yet he refuses want to cut their incomes in the middle of a pandemic. to accept any economies because that would offend his It is clear that the Prime Minister has made a deliberate union paymasters. Will my right hon. Friend confirm decision to let unemployment soar, just like Thatcher that the Government have not required the current did in the 1980s. Time is running out. With one week Mayor of London to expand the congestion charge to left, will the Prime Minister finally U-turn on his cuts to the north and south circular roads? the furlough scheme and invest in our communities? Or The Prime Minister: What I can certainly confirm, as will he leave millions of people on the scrap heap? I said in my answer to the first question, is that the black hole in TfL’s finances of TfL, the bankruptcy The Prime Minister: I really must reject what the right of TfL, which, by the way, was left in robust financial hon. Gentleman has just said, because it bears no health by the previous Mayor—it certainly was—is relation to the facts or the reality of what the Government entirely the fault of the current Labour Mayor of London, are doing to support people throughout the country. It with his grossly irresponsible demagogic fare policies, is not just the £200 billion investment in jobs and which, I may say, were never pursued by the previous livelihoods; we are also engaged in and will continue to Mayor of London, and the fault lies entirely with him. I deliver a colossal investment in education, health, housing trust that my hon. Friend will make that clear. and infrastructure that will deliver jobs and growth throughout this United Kingdom for a generation. [907910] Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Financial support packages, tackling homelessness, [907918] Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con): rail nationalisation and honouring Marcus Rashford—there I congratulate the Prime Minister and his negotiating is plenty that this Government have done on covid that team on their strong stance in the negotiations with the I applaud, but with winter set to bite and no end to the EU. Does he agree that the EU’s position on fishing and virus in sight, may I ask the Prime Minister to reconsider the European Court of Justice demonstrates that it is the arbitrary end to many of his schemes, which were not treating us as an independent state, that it is not set months ago when we knew so little? Three million acting in good faith to deliver a free trade agreement self-employed people were completely left out of all of and that, in international law, the UK is therefore these measures, a number of whom are now set to face entitled to leave the withdrawal agreement and make its destitution when the minimum income floor ends next own arrangements regarding the UK’s internal market? month. Furthermore, school dinners for 3,272 kids in his own seat and 2,016 in mine are in the balance. Can The Prime Minister: Whatever the effect of the withdrawal he start by voting with us tonight and make sure that agreement, I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that that gong does not mean nothing? the UK’s internal market, which I think everybody on both sides of the House values, is protected and upheld Mr Speaker: Order. and by the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, which The Prime Minister rose— is currently going through the other place. It also, of course, protects the Good Friday agreement. Mr Speaker: Order. Will the Prime Minister sit down? We must have short questions. I want to get through the Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): Mikey is list, so we must help each other. severely disabled. He turned 18 last month, so he is one of the first to see his child trust fund mature, but The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is quite right to Mikey’s disabilities mean that he cannot manage his call attention to the difficulties facing many families own finances, so he cannot access the savings. Government right now because of the crisis that we have been in. The rules on child trust funds mean that his parents cannot most important thing—and I hope that this is common access them either without paying expensive legal fees. ground—is to keep kids in school if we possibly can. This is Mikey’s own money. He wants to use it to buy a That would be vitiated by the series of lockdowns that specially adapted tricycle. Will the Prime Minister look are being proposed. I do not want to go down that at the proposals that Mikey’s father has shown me to route. What I want to do is to ensure that we continue to end this injustice for disabled young people and let support families throughout the crisis so that they have Mikey buy this trike? the cash available to feed their kids as they need to do. 1059 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1060

Kettering General Hospital The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I thank my hon. Friend for everything he does to lobby for that. Our local [907920] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If he delivery partner in Devon and Somerset has provided will hold discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer connectivity of the kind that he describes to 300,000 on involving the infrastructure delivery taskforce in the premises across those two counties. We are going to be a rebuilding of Kettering General Hospital. world leader in connectivity as we build back better.

The Prime Minister: I am delighted that Kettering [907914] Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: Can General Hospital is part of the biggest hospital building the Prime Minister confirm that his Government are programme in a generation. I can tell my hon. Friend seeking to force the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, to that the infrastructure delivery taskforce is already involved remove free travel for under-18s and for holders of the in delivering the health infrastructure programme, which 60-plus travel card in return for further financial includes Kettering General Hospital. support for TfL to keep the tubes and buses running? Mr Hollobone: I thank the Prime Minister for visiting How can this be right when many people in London, the night shift at Kettering General Hospital in February including in my constituency, already have months of and seeing for himself at first hand the wonderful work genuine hardship ahead of them? being done by local medics and staff. The hospital could expedite at speed ambitious plans for its rebuild, but The Prime Minister: It was the Labour Mayor of only if the time taken for regulatory clearances at NHS London who bankrupted TfL’s finances, and any changes Improvement is dramatically shortened. Will the Prime that he brings in are entirely his responsibility. I suggest Minister cut NHS red tape, so that local people can that the hon. Member holds him to account. have the improvements that we need at our local hospital as quickly as possible? Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): I know that the Prime Minister is committed to doubling down The Prime Minister: Indeed. I hope that I can reassure on levelling up. Will he join me for a virtual tour of my hon. Friend by saying that clinical modelling work is Stoke-on-Trent Central and a roundtable with key partners complete and the site development is now under way as focused on delivering for the left behind, not least to we speak. ensure that the transforming cities fund investment will revolutionise public transport in the city? Engagements The Prime Minister: That is an easy commitment for [907911] Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): On 16 June, me to make, and I am delighted to do so. I can tell my the Prime Minister agreed to provide free school meal hon. Friend that we are investing nearly £20 million vouchers to hungry children over the summer holidays through our city deal in pioneering a new programme of after claiming just 24 hours beforehand that he was sustainable low-carbon and low-cost heat energy to completely unaware of the campaign that was calling Stoke-on-Trent. for it. Last week, the Liberal Democrat Education Minister for Wales, Kirsty Williams, guaranteed that free school [907915] Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): Three meal provision during school holidays would continue weeks ago the Prime Minister stood at that Dispatch until at least Easter 2021, and yesterday the Scottish Box praising Luton as the only place to have come out Government committed to do the same. Can the Prime of local restrictions, but praise does not pay the bills. Minister confirm that he is indeed aware of these Luton’s proud industries of manufacturing, aviation announcements, and, if so, when does he plan to do the and events cannot get by on soundbites and figures that right thing? bear no relation to what is really happening to jobs and The Prime Minister: Governments of all stripes have businesses. He knows that entire industries are at stake, supplied free school meals since 1906, and I am proud so is his inaction indifference or incompetence? Will he that it was this Conservative Government who extended support businesses and areas that need it throughout universal free school meals to five, six and seven-year-olds. this crisis? The Labour party was in power for 30 of the past 100 years and never did anything like that. We support The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I thank the people kids of low incomes in school, and we will continue to of Luton for their hard and heroic work, as I thank do so, but the most important thing is to keep them in people across the country for what they are doing. I school and not to tear off into another national lockdown, want to support businesses in Luton, which is why we taking them out of school. We will continue to use the want to continue with the sensible, balanced, regional benefits system and all the systems of income support and local approach that we are taking. I hope that the to support young people and children throughout the hon. Member agrees with me that it would make no holidays as well. sense at all for hard-pressed businesses in Luton to have their lights turned off and their doors shuttered in a [907922] Sir (South West Devon) (Con) series of multiple lockdowns of the kind recommended [V]: One lesson that we have all learnt in the past nine by the Labour party. months is that the internet is even more important to our lives than we imagined. Will my right hon. Friend Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con): The people of therefore confirm today that, despite covid and all the Aberconwy in north Wales are learning to live with other challenges with which he is grappling, we will covid-19, but we are frustrated by national Welsh deliver on our manifesto commitment to roll out full Government policy that seeks to place restrictions on us fibre superfast broadband across the United Kingdom that are the same in the village of Cwm Penmachno as and ensure that we are global leaders in digital connectivity? they are in the capital, . Last week, my right hon. 1061 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1062

Friend agreed that a shared responsibility is the way to Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) [V]: As my right hon. tackle this pandemic. Does he see the future of this Friend leads the country through and delivers situation as a series of rolling national lockdowns, or global Britain, will he ensure that the values and policies can businesses and residents hope that they will be of his Government to which he first gives consideration given more trust to look after their own health and are those that will unite and bring our country together, those they care for? and make all those who voted remain for what they thought were the internationalist values of the European The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend puts the distinction Union proud again of their country in bringing those clearly and sharply, which is that we are following the values to global Britain? common-sensical and balanced approach. Where local leaders step up to the plate—I am delighted that South The Prime Minister: Indeed. That is why we are going Yorkshire came on board this morning; I had a great to use the G7 presidency and the COP26 summit to conversation with Dan Jarvis last night—and where champion our values across the world, particularly the local leadership is shown, we can really make huge one that my hon. Friend mentions—female education, progress in getting the R down. That is the right approach which is the single policy that can really transform for the country. outcomes across the planet. Our global objective is to help 40 million girls across the world to get a decent [907916] Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) [V]: May education. I return to the subject of free school meals? There are 7,108 children in Knowsley who are reliant on free [907921] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): school meals, which are vital to ensure that they are The Prime Minister’s Government lost control of the properly fed. Whether to extend provision to Easter is virus, making extra restrictions inevitable, but with no both a moral and political choice. Will the Prime Minister certainty,no communication and no new financial support, make the right choice and agree to extend free school he is killing Nottingham businesses. Castle Rock Brewery meals to Easter? is a Nottingham success story, but now it is on the verge of breakdown, with two pubs closed permanently, jobs The Prime Minister: Of course we have free school gone, and worried staff facing the prospect of being laid meals throughout term time—that is entirely right. We off with no pay. Countless other bars, restaurants and want to make sure that we continue to support people pubs tell the same story.Will he stop punishing successful on low incomes throughout the crisis, and that is what Nottingham businesses for his failure and give them the we are going to do. help they desperately need?

Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) The Prime Minister: Of course I sympathise deeply (Con) [V]: As my right hon. Friend will know, part of with businesses that face difficulties because of the my constituency has now been placed under tier 2 pandemic, although I remind the hon. Lady that the restrictions. Can he therefore reassure everyone that if infection rate in her constituency is now running at they stick to the rules, observe the “hands, face, space” 815 per 100,000, and we must get that down. I thank the message, and self-isolate when required, accompanied people of Nottingham for what they are doing to get it by suitable enforcement for those who blatantly flout down. We will of course continue to provide the full the law, we will come out of these restrictions all the panoply of support that we have offered, and more, sooner? throughout this crisis.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend puts his finger Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Following the on it. That is exactly what we need to do. The areas that introduction of tier 2 restrictions in York, can the Prime go into high levels of concern are reviewed every 14 days, Minister be more open in communicating the evidence and the restrictions, as I told the right hon. and learned base for York going into tier 2, outline a road map for Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), the city’s return to tier 1, and urgently consider the are reviewed every 28 days. The way to get through this creation of specific support for York’s hospitality industry, is exactly as my hon. Friend says: to follow the guidance, which is suffering losses from the limbo that tier 2 is particularly the “hands, face, space” basics. creating?

[907917] Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): The The Prime Minister: Yes, I can tell my hon. Friend people of Barnes in my constituency have been cut off that the infection rate in York, alas, is now running at from public transport routes for some months now by 279 per 100,000, and we must get it down. But we can the closure of Hammersmith bridge. Can the Prime get it down; we can get it down through the package of Minister confirm reports that the Government are now measures that we have described. You can see, in areas planning to charge Barnes residents £15 a day to own a where people are complying with the guidance, that it is car, and charge them extra council tax, to pay for having an effect, because if it were not for the efforts facilities that they cannot use, despite the fact that and energies of the British people, the R would be Transport for London reserves were increasing before running at 3 or more; it is now between 1.2 and 1.5. It the virus hit? will not take much—compliance in those areas that are hit at the moment—to get that R back down below 1. The Prime Minister: I can confirm that Hammersmith That is what we are aiming for, and that is the way to bridge has been closed thanks entirely to the incompetence get businesses across the country, in the constituency of the current Labour Mayor of London, and that of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Shaun Bailey, the Conservative candidate, is going to Greenwood), in my hon. Friend’s constituency, back on reopen it, which is the best thing possible. their feet as fast as possible. It would not be sensible, in 1063 Oral Answers 21 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 1064 my view, to plunge them all back into a sustained series not correct in what she says about the combined impact of national lockdowns, particularly in areas where the of the job support scheme and universal credit, because virus is low. they work in tandem, and that lifts people’s incomes to 80%, and in some cases more than 90%, of their current [907923] Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) incomes. That is the support that we are giving at the (Lab): The Chancellor has decided that people who are moment, but the best thing is to get our country through unable to work because of coronavirus restrictions should this crisis, without going back into the social, the be paid as little as two thirds of the national minimum psychological, the emotional and the economic disaster— wage. At the same time, the Government are paying and “disaster” was the word that the Labour party used £7,000 a day for consultants to work on the failed Serco only a week or so ago—the disaster of a series of national track and trace programme. Can the Prime Minister tell lockdowns. the House how on earth he thinks that is justifiable, and is this what he means by “levelling up”? Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the The Prime Minister: The NHS track and trace is now safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend testing more people than any other country in Europe; the House for three minutes. it has tested, I think, 26 million people so far—or conducted 26 million tests. I am also proud, on the hon. 12.37 pm Lady’s other point, that we have been able to support Sitting suspended. people across the country in the way that we have. She is 1065 21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1066

Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire We know that some of the measures I have announced today are challenging and will have a real impact on people and businesses in South Yorkshire, so we will be Mr Speaker: Exceptionally,I have agreed to the Minister putting in place substantial support. That includes the for Health making a statement with a shorter notice job support scheme, which ensures those affected by period. Members should understand that it is better to business closures are still paid. Once topped up with have it than not to have it, so please accept my apologies universal credit, those on low incomes will receive at for the late notice. least 80% of their normal income. The agreement also includes additional funding of £11.2 million for the local 12.42 pm area for local enforcement and contract tracing activity. As well as that, we are putting in place extra funding so The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): With permission, that local authorities in South Yorkshire can continue I would like to make a statement on coronavirus, further to support businesses through this period. to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the From the Dispatch Box, I would like to thank all the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care last night. local leaders in South Yorkshire for the collegiate and This virus remains a serious threat, and over a million constructive way in which they have approached the people have tested positive for coronavirus in Europe negotiations. I would like to thank all hon. Members over the past week. Here in the UK, we recorded 21,331 representing constituencies in the region as well. We have positive cases yesterday—one of the highest recorded worked across party lines to reach an agreement that daily figures. Average daily hospital admissions in the will protect public health and the NHS in South Yorkshire, UK have doubled in the past 14 days, and yesterday we while also supporting those who need it most. I know recorded the highest number of daily deaths, 241, since those local measures will be hard and entail further early June. sacrifice, but through bearing down hard on the virus, We must keep working hard, together, to keep this wherever and whenever we see it emerge, we can help to virus under control. We have been vigilant in monitoring slow the spread of this virus and protect our loved ones the data and putting in place targeted local measures so and our local communities. The agreement will help us that we can bear down hard on the virus wherever we to protect lives and livelihoods in South Yorkshire and see it emerging. We have seen how local action can help I commend the statement to the House. flatten the curve, for example in Leicester and Bolton. This targeted local approach, supported by our local Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I covid alert level system, means we can have different thank the Minister of State for advance sight of his rules in places like Cornwall, where transmission is low, statement. Today, we have another great swathe of the from those in places where transmission is high and north put into lockdown. Sheffield went into tier 2 rising. restrictions last Wednesday, so did Ministers make the wrong judgment a week ago or has new evidence come I would like to update the House specifically on the to light that was not apparent last Wednesday? How discussions we have been having with local leaders in many other areas in tier 2 today are facing the same fate South Yorkshire. The situation in South Yorkshire remains as Sheffield, such as those areas in tier 2 that neighbour serious. There have been more cases in South Yorkshire South Yorkshire, such as North East Derbyshire or so far in October—over 12,000—than in July, August Nottinghamshire? and September combined. The number of patients with The Secretary of State could not answer yesterday covid-19 in intensive care beds has reached over half the the question of how long Greater Manchester will be in number seen at the height of the pandemic earlier this lockdown, or what the criteria will be for leaving lockdown, year, and the latest data suggests that the numbers of so can the Minister of State today tell us how long patients on mechanical ventilation will soon be comparable South Yorkshire will be in lockdown? Does the nationwide to the first peak in March. We need to act now to R number need to fall below 1, as the Prime Minister prevent the epidemic in South Yorkshire from continuing suggested last week, or just the regional R number? Or, to grow. if an area such as Doncaster gets the R below 1, will it I am pleased to inform the House that, following be able to leave lockdown? discussions this week, the Government have reached an The Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box earlier talked agreement with South Yorkshire on a package of measures about hospital admissions, so could the Minister tell us to drive down transmission. That means that South what level hospital admissions need to come down to Yorkshire—so the city of Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham for an area to exit lockdown? and Doncaster—will be moving to the local covid alert As I said yesterday, my dad worked in casinos in level “very high”, taking effect at one minute past Salford and my mum worked in bars. I know people will midnight on Saturday morning. That includes the baseline want to do the right thing and will understand that measures to the very high alert level which were agreed further measures are necessary to contain the spread of by the House earlier this month. the virus, but families should not face financial ruin. As well as this, and as agreed with local leaders, The Minister wants congratulations for the package he unfortunately,casinos, betting shops, adult gaming centres has allocated to South Yorkshire, but why is contact and soft play centres will also have to close, and while tracing funding subject to the negotiations and deals? gyms will remain open classes will not be allowed. On The virus is out of control because of the failures of the that point, the Liverpool city region and my hon. Friend £12 billion test and trace system. If local areas had been the Member for Southport () have also given the resources months ago to put in place effective requested to bring their region into line with those contact tracing, we would not be in this situation now. measures. So gyms will be open and soft play centres will Those failures on contact tracing are having a direct close in the Liverpool city region. impact on people’s lives. 1067 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1068

This afternoon, families across South Yorkshire who those eligible, will ensure that people receive at least work in hospitality—whether in Doncaster, Sheffield, 80% of their wages. On his broader point about the big Penistone, Rother Valley or Don Valley—will be asking picture of economic support, I would remind him that why, if it was fair to pay 80% of wages in March, they this Government and the Chancellor have provided an should now be expected to get by on just two thirds of unprecedented package of economic support over recent their wages in the run-up to Christmas. This matters to months to businesses and individuals. The Government families everywhere, because we know that further are very clear in our commitment to protect the health restrictions will be needed. Indeed, according to sources of this nation and the economic health of this nation. briefing Times Radio, plans are being developed for a three-week lockdown more widely next month. Perhaps Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): I thank my hon. the Minister could confirm that his officials are now Friend for making this statement. I have had many working on plans for a three-week national lockdown productive meetings with him and his colleagues in the next month. Department of Health and Social Care during the pandemic, and I know how hard such decisions are to The Communities Secretary said this morning that make. While I understand the necessity for South Yorkshire there was now a national formula for areas under local to go into tier 3 to reduce the infection rate, businesses lockdown, but Ministers say they want a targeted local and employees are worried about the future. Can he approach because circumstances vary. Yet when an area confirm to the people of Doncaster that if they play such as Greater Manchester, which has had restrictions their part, they will be able to move down to tier 2 since July, says, “Our circumstances are different,” the independently of Sheffield city region? Prime Minister says, “Tough. Hard luck. You can’t be treated any differently,” and vindictively refuses Greater Edward Argar: My hon. Friend is a consistently strong Manchester just £5 million extra to get a deal over the voice for his constituents in this House and in conversations line. This is playing politics with people’s jobs and people’s with Ministers. I am clear, as are the Government, that livelihoods. We cannot defeat this virus on the cheap, no area should remain in a tier longer than is absolutely nor should it be broken on the backs of the lowest paid. necessary to address the infection rate and protect the Public health restrictions must go hand in hand with health of local people, so I can give him the reassurance economic support, because as night follows day, falls in that his area will stay in that tier no longer than is employment lead to rises in chronic illness. The Chancellor necessary to address the current rise in hospitalisations must pay out to help out, and deliver a fair deal to and infections. support jobs and livelihoods under lockdown. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, [V]: I am grateful to the Minister for advance sight of my constituency neighbour up in Leicestershire. He his statement, and I agree with him when he says that was, as usual, typically reasonable and measured, until we must keep working hard together to keep this virus almost the last moment, when I am afraid the only person under control. However, I cannot help but notice that playing politics was him. regionalleadersinEnglandhavebeenexpressingfrustrations To address the hon. Gentleman’s points, we are taking with Downing Street that are very similar to Scotland’s. these steps now, at the right time, as the infection rate Why is there an insistence on announcing measures to has continued to go up. In respect of other tier 2 areas Westminster journalists before speaking to devolved or neighbouring tier 2 areas, it is only this announcement and regional Governments? Does he not see that changing that we are planning to make at this point. It is the only that approach could greatly improve working relationships? move that has been announced and that is currently Tens of millions of pounds of financial support are being considered. being announced this week. Will the Minister speak The hon. Gentleman asked about criteria, essentially— with his colleague the Chancellor and confirm that that a number of his questions were, “How long for?” and, money will be fully Barnettised, ensuring that the devolved “How will it be judged?”, which are fair questions. Governments are being fully funded to take their own Areas will remain in tier 3 or tier 2 for as long as covid mitigation measures? necessary to protect the health of the local people and Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I the NHS in that region. He asked about the sort of should say that in my experience, albeit as a junior things that will be relevant to when an area enters and Minister, I have enjoyed a positive and constructive comes out. These include infection rates per 100,000, working relationship on this issue with the devolved the impact on the NHS in terms of hospital capacity Administrations and Ministers in Scotland, Wales and and how full hospitals are, and hospitalisation rates, as Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to that relationship and well as relying on local knowledge and listening to local the work that those leaders in the devolved Administrations public health officials, as he would expect us to. have done. The hon. Gentleman touched on contact tracing and I turn to the hon. Gentleman’s final two points. In how that is working. What we have in this country is a respect of his comments about briefings, all I would say blended system, which brings together the scale of a is that I am here at the Dispatch Box announcing this to national approach with the local knowledge provided the House, and that is how I do business. On his final by local public health teams. He has seen in his own city point, the Chancellor will, I know, have heard exactly of Leicester how effective that can be and how both what he said about Barnett consequentials. parts are absolutely vital. The hon. Gentleman finished by talking, I think Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): reasonably, about the need for economic support for None of us in South Yorkshire wanted to be in this those affected by this. As I set out in the statement, the position and, as hon. Members have already said, this is job support scheme, coupled with universal credit for going to hit families, businesses and communities hard 1069 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1070

[Miriam Cates] Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): None of us in South Yorkshire wanted to be in the higher tiers, at a time when we are already weary of months of not but we completely understand the need to save lives and seeing family and friends. But it is important that we protect the NHS; that is the overarching thing that we take swift action to protect the NHS and prevent local need to take away and encourage all our population to NHS services from becoming overwhelmed. I really do do. However, this increased tier will have an increased want to pay tribute to our Mayor Dan Jarvis, local impact on people’s mental health. I have already been leaders, No. 10 and the Department of Health, who contacted today by constituents who are seriously worried have taken a really calm, constructive and collaborative about their mental health, especially when they do not approach over the past few days. That shows that we do have anyone to form a support bubble with. What not all hate each other in Yorkshire, despite the common assurances can the Minister give to me and people perception. across Rother Valley that mental health is a key part of I am also pleased that the restrictions are not open the system and will be looked after and helped? ended and that there is the 28-day review. I appreciate that the Minister cannot give exact metrics about what Edward Argar: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will be used to determine whether or not we come out of have known him for many years, and he has long taken this, but it is very important to my constituents in an interest in and campaigned on this issue. I can Penistone and Stocksbridge that we know what we are reassure him that additional investment has gone into aiming for. Can he guarantee that he will have regular, the NHS at all levels, which includes mental health, but ongoing discussions with local leaders and local people he is right: the impact of lockdown and these restrictions about whether we are heading in the right direction, to on people’smental health should never be underestimated, make sure that people know that we are on the right track? so it is right that support and advice are available to people. I know that his local NHS is working very hard Edward Argar: I should have done this in responding to ensure that that package is in place. If he wishes to to the shadow Secretary of State, actually: I also pay talk to me subsequently, I am happy to do that. tribute to the Mayor of Sheffield City Region—a Member of this House—for his approach and to the constructive Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Clearly we approach that we have seen on all sides in this. I put that have to take the measures necessary to combat the on the record. virus, and we have tried to work together on them My hon. Friend talks about local engagement and across South Yorkshire, but the Minister knows that what hope there is of reviews. The 28-day period is the this deal does not meet all the concerns of local leaders, sunset point at which these measures fall, unless they nor does it provide the support that businesses need. are renewed or altered. There are actually reviews within The ban on household mixing is clearly necessary, but it 14 days; the Secretary of State continues to monitor makes many cafés, restaurants and pubs with food data so will be reviewing progress at more frequent unviable. It impacts on the music, events and creative intervals. I happily give my hon. Friend the assurance sectors, but because they are not being required to close, that she seeks: throughout this process there will be they will not get the support they need. They are simply open lines of communication—not only with her and being hung out to dry. Will the Government think again other colleagues, but with local leaders in the region. and provide the support that those businesses need, to save thousands of jobs across South Yorkshire? Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): Although I am horrified that we are at this position, I completely understand the need for the introduction of these measures; Edward Argar: The hon. Gentleman is always diligent I hope that everyone in South Yorkshire will follow and measured in representing his constituents and businesses them constructively. However, we need a level of support in the House. The deal that has been reached is both fair across the country to ensure that these local measures and proportionate and reflective of the fairness across work. Although I am pleased that we have had constructive other areas that are in tier 3, and it should be taken in conversations throughout this period, I am still concerned the context of being coupled with the broader national that too many people will be left behind. programme. I would not characterise the approach being taken towards hospitality in the way that he did. I pay I have already heard from one employer about their tribute to our hospitality industry in this country, which employees falling through the cracks of the support I think is what he was seeking to do, and as I say, the scheme. They are unable to access funding for childcare support package is there to support businesses across on the basis of this as well. The lowest paid also use all sectors in this country. universal credit as an in-work benefit. Will the Minister agree, accept and make representations to the Treasury that perhaps 80% of an income topped up by universal Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): credit is not enough in these scenarios? Test and trace activity is rightly focused on areas of the country where there is relatively high transmission of Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the the virus. To what extent will the Minister prioritise tone of her initial remarks—she is clearly putting the tier 3 areas over tier 1 areas in the protocols that the health interests of her constituents first—and her perfectly Department is drawing up for vaccination? reasonable question. As I set out in my statement, the job support scheme, coupled with universal credit, will Edward Argar: The protocols for the distribution of give those on low incomes at least 80% of their normal any vaccine, when it becomes available, are being worked income, but if there is a specific sector or case that she on intensively. My right hon. Friend makes a good wants to raise, I would be delighted for her to write to point, which I am sure will have been heard by the me, and I will look into it. Secretary of State. 1071 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1072

Mr Speaker: Let’s head up to South Yorkshire, to visit the area and other local factors. It is reasonable that we the Mayor, no less—Dan Jarvis. set out that broad approach, but also that we recognise that in some areas very specific local considerations will Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: As Mayor, I be driving growth of the disease and infection rates, and think that this is the right course of action for South they may need to be taken into consideration as well. Yorkshire. The financial support will provide some help for our people and our economy, but we all understand Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If someone that it will also mean sacrifice. Families will be separated, lives in Gainsborough and they want to take a test, they workers will suffer, and businesses will face uncertainty, can go to the Lincolnshire showground, but equally so we need the Minister and the Government to repay they might go to Doncaster airport, if their work takes that sacrifice by working closely with us, with our local them up there and it is not much further. There is a authorities and with our NHS. Together, we need to do mystery about infection rates in West Lindsey, because everything we can to get a grip of this disease, so that they are higher than all the surrounding areas, despite our region can move out of these restrictions as soon as the fact that we have no university, we are a rural area possible. and we have no large hospital. I suspect the figures are being corrupted because the large local testing site is at Edward Argar: I reiterate the tribute I paid to the hon. the Lincolnshire showground. Cases are probably coming Gentleman for his approach throughout this. It is in from outside and featuring in West Lindsey figures. abundantly clear that he and all of his colleagues have That is important, not just for South Yorkshire but for the best interests of his region at heart and have worked everywhere else, because if those figures are wrong, how constructively throughout this process to get the right can we rely on them? How can we lock down areas and health and economic outcome for his area. I can absolutely put businesses out of business if the figures simply do give him that commitment. I and my colleagues look not add up? forward to continued close working and co-operation with him as we move forward to beat this disease in his Edward Argar: I am not aware of any systemic issue area. that is seeing false data entered, but if my right hon. Friend is happy to give me more information, I am Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): The three-tiered local happy to look into it for him. There can, though, be approach has to be right, and I pay tribute, as the other factors beyond universities or a young population. Minister just did, to the cool heads of some local There can be a range of things in a particular area that leaders for working with Ministers so sensibly. Surely drive a particular spike, but I am happy to look at the people in South Yorkshire and elsewhere need to know information he has got. where they are at and be confident that the goalposts will not move, so can the Minister please comment on Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I completely stories this morning that plans are being worked up by understand the reasons for this statement. Government the chief medical officer for local—not national, but action for Yorkshire is similar to the action we have local—three-week circuit breaker lockdowns in tier 2 taken in Northern Ireland with the circuit breaker. and tier 3 areas? Simon Hamilton, chair of the Belfast chamber of trade and commerce, has stated, in tandem with 23 other Edward Argar: I can reassure my hon. Friend that organisations that “fewer and fewer” will survive each that is not something I have been involved in or had lockdown and sight of. “more jobs will be lost”. Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Public trust in The Department for the Economy accurately estimates the midst of a public health emergency is absolutely that those job losses could be 100,000. With the prospect critical. People need to know what they are working of longer dole queues and poor prospects for towards when they are making these immense sacrifices, re-employment, what discussions have taken place and so may I press the Minister once again on the criteria what assistance can the Minister give to the devolved that he has agreed with the Mayor of Sheffield city Administration in Northern Ireland? region for South Yorkshire going into tier 3 and to come out? Will those same criteria be applied to other Mr Speaker: The statement is about South Yorkshire. tier 2 areas such as London, York, Essex and parts of I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would the midlands, or will they all be subject to a series of have had a little bit of something about Yorkshire. negotiations at local level behind closed doors? The public Minister, see what you can pick out of that about need and want to know. Yorkshire.

Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who is Edward Argar: I am pleased to reassure the hon. her party’sspokesperson on this issue. I entirely understand Gentleman that the same collegiate approach we have where she is coming from and the importance of trust adopted for working with South Yorkshire characterises and transparency. I set out in the statement why the our approach across all of the devolved Administrations move has been made to increase the tier level—the and devolved nations as well. May I say to the hon. infection rates and the hospitalisation rates—and why Gentleman that we missed him while he was away that development needed to be arrested by these measures. self-isolating for a period, so it is good to have him I set out in response to the shadow Secretary of State back? He touches on the economic impact, and he the considerations that would play a part in determining is absolutely right to highlight that. There is a clear the review periods when an area could start to move support package in place, and I continue to work closely back down those tiers. Those things include infection with Robin Swann and others in Northern Ireland on rates, the impact on the NHS and hospital capacity in these matters. 1073 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1074

Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Last week, Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I note local politicians in Lancashire were able to put their the agreement reached in South Yorkshire, and I fear politics aside and work constructively to agree a sensible that York is rapidly heading in the same direction, with way forward. I am delighted that politicians in South a sharp increase in infection. Does the Minister recognise Yorkshire have now been able to replicate the same that each local authority has different economies, different constructive cross-party approach. Will my hon. Friend complexities and different vulnerabilities, and therefore commend those local politicians, including the hon. it is really important to start dialogue early with local Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), for the way political leaders as well as ourselves to get the right deal in which those negotiations have been conducted, which to prevent an escalation in tiers, but also to ensure that has of course been in stark contrast to the behaviour of we get on top of the Track and Trace system to make some other elected Mayors? sure that that is done locally and is effective?

Edward Argar: I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I think to all local leaders and, indeed, all Members of this she actually made the case very well for the approach House who have been engaged in this process and more that the Government are adopting, which is local tiering, broadly. It is clear that when we all work together, we rather than a blanket national approach, because she is can achieve more to tackle this disease. absolutely right that different areas of the country are different and have different circumstances. To her substantive point about early engagement and continued Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) [V]: On Monday, engagement, I am very happy to say that I am very happy I asked the Health Secretary about contact tracing. He to work with her. We can start that off, if she wants, answered by talking about testing, so perhaps this Minister with a conversation about the data and so on. I am very will answer a question about contact tracing. Will the happy to ensure that those channels of communication Government now give the Serco data to local public are open. health teams, and will the Government provide the financial resources that those local teams need? That equates to roughly £300 million to the Liverpool city Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): Enforcement region, similar sums to Lancashire and to South Yorkshire, is important in South Yorkshire, as it is elsewhere, and I and about £500 million to Greater Manchester when am pleased that on today’s Order Paper there is a compared with the £12 billion for Serco. statutory instrument putting the requirement to self-isolate in law. However, the Minister will be aware that I have grave concerns about the powers to use reasonable force Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. that have been given to state officials other than police The data he refers to is, of course, Government data—NHS officers who simply are not trained to use those powers data. He talks about contact tracing, and as I said in safely. As a former Home Office Minister, I think that response to his hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of risks the safety and lives of individuals. May I ask the State,the approach we adopt on both testing but particularly Minister to give me an assurance from the Dispatch on contact tracing quite rightly blends the scalability of Box that, at the earliest opportunity, those powers will a national approach with the local knowledge of working be limited only to police officers? I regret to say that if very closely hand in hand with local public health he cannot give me that assurance, I will be unable to teams. A very good example of how that can work well support the measures on today’s Order Paper. is in my own local city and the shadow Secretary of State’s city of Leicester. Edward Argar: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question, and I am conscious of the context in Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): These really are which he speaks. As a former junior Minister handling tough choices, as nobody wants to see their lives restricted prisons at the Ministry of Justice, I am conscious of the or their freedoms curtailed. All of my constituents in issues that he alludes to in that context and of the Keighley and Ilkley have had local restrictions since the importance of proper training and restraint and similar. end of July, and for now at least we are in tier 2. While We appreciate concerns about the reasonable force many are adhering incredibly diligently to these restrictions, allowances in the regulations. The powers to authorise it is clear that a sense of disenfranchisement is kicking persons other than the police and police community in, with some not adhering. How can we better address support officers to use reasonable force have not been this so that we give ourselves the best chance of staying used, and there are no intentions to use them. However, in tier 2 and not going up to tier 3 like our neighbouring my right hon. Friend makes his point well, as always, friends in South Yorkshire? and we are urgently reviewing those powers, given the concerns that he and others have raised around the Edward Argar: It is very important that everyone proportionality of enforcement. continues to adhere to the rules put in place for the tier in which their area sits. Those rules are in place to Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: protect public health and bring the infection rate down. This morning, Professor Edmunds told the Health and I would, finally, comment—I think it was the Liberal Social Care Committee and the Select Committee on Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Twickenham Science and Technology that he would not follow the (Munira Wilson), who mentioned trust—that of course strategy of imposing tier 3 lockdowns on a succession it is very important for building trust and consent that of local areas. He said that would keep the R number we work closely with local leaders and with local Members around 1, meaning that the high rate of incidence we of Parliament, and I come to this House, as I have done already have in those areas, with hospitals under strain, today,to obtain that consent and provide that transparency would just continue. Instead, a short circuit breaker, so that people are more likely to comply. with tier 3 restrictions everywhere now, is what we were 1075 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire 1076 told would bring case rates down. If that is the advice Edward Argar: My hon. Friend is right to talk about being given to the Government, why are they pursuing the importance of local leadership and engagement. damaging restrictions on areas such as South Yorkshire Local leaders and Members of Parliament know their and Greater Manchester,with inadequate financial support, areas best, and it is right to continue to engage closely that are unlikely to bring cases down? with those people. I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the work that has recently been done in that Edward Argar: I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive respect. On his final point, I am not aware of any such me; I did not see the evidence to the Select Committees, proposition. as I was preparing to come to the House. However, as she will be aware, the SAGE paper that was published Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) [V]: People recently, in referring to so-called local circuit-breaker in South Yorkshire, as well as in my constituency, lockdowns, did not say it was a one-off and would solve struggle to make ends meet on the UK Government’s the problem. We are confident that we are taking a pretendy living wage, which falls far below the real proportionate and effective approach on a regional and living wage. How does the Minister expect people to live local basis that will, assuming that compliance is there, and pay their bills and rent on only two-thirds of that continue to drive down infection rates effectively, coupled poverty pay? with an effective economic and financial support package agreed with local leaders. Edward Argar: As the hon. Lady will have heard me say, the combined support schemes, particularly where Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Although there is the UC top-up, will mean that people get at my thoughts are with the people of South Yorkshire least 80% of their wages. I am afraid that I refute her and businesses in South Yorkshire, my primary point about the living wage in this country, as I believe responsibility is to people in North Yorkshire. Will my it is a significant achievement by this Government and hon. Friend help to scotch any rumours that are circulating the previous Chancellor, George Osborne. It is a huge that North Yorkshire is about to go into tier 2 when its step forward, and rather than belittling it, we should rate of infection is well below the national average? If recognise the impact it has had. there is any need to put us in a higher tier, will he look to do that on a district-wide level, where there is significant Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): South Yorkshire variation across North Yorkshire, rather than purely at is where many, perhaps most, visitors to Cleethorpes county-wide level? come from. They are very welcome and vital to the local hospitality sector, but many of them occupy caravans Edward Argar: If I recall correctly, I believe that my and chalets for weeks and months at a time. Again, that right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was able to is welcome, but there are concerns among local people offer my hon. Friend a reassurance relatively recently in that people perhaps come and go during this period to the House in respect of the approach that he was looking and from an area in tier 3. What support can the to take in that context, and that still stands. Government offer to the local authority to monitor that? Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: The Minister has, no doubt, given briefings to South Edward Argar: My hon. Friend highlights an important Yorkshire colleagues, as he did with Greater Manchester point, and we have been clear that people in tier 3 areas MPs earlier this week, and I sincerely thank him for that should not undertake travel in and out of that area. engagement. It is being widely reported that the They should abide by the rules of the area in which they Communities Secretary is meeting Greater Manchester’s live, rather than travelling to another area and applying MPs about the next steps for our city region. Sadly, it the rules in that area. The rules apply on the basis of the seems that none of the 18 Labour MPs has received an area in which someone lives. invite. Is that an accidental oversight or further evidence of increasing ambivalence towards our city region? Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): One big concern about the local lockdowns in Edward Argar: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that South Yorkshire and elsewhere is that if there is not there is no ambivalence towards his city region. There is enough money to support businesses to survive, there a deep respect and affection across this House for that will be a longer-term impact on the economy and region and the people who live there. I am grateful to individual livelihoods if that is not put right. That will him for his kind words about the briefing I led with have a big impact on public health, and one of the colleagues across all parties relatively recently on this. I biggest concerns is the loneliness of people living in am happy to look into the specific question he raises single households, and the impact on their mental health. about being briefed by the Local Government Secretary. How is the Minister looking ahead—I hope that he will answer this point directly—to ensure that there is no Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I pay tribute to the long-term oncost to the health service from this misery Mayor of South Yorkshire, the hon. Member for Barnsley for people who are left alone and are now unable to mix Central (Dan Jarvis). He has worked constructively with households in South Yorkshire and other areas with the Government to ensure proper northern leadership with hard lockdowns? in the interests of public health. Will the Minister confirm that when other areas face changes to local Edward Argar: The hon. Lady makes an important restrictions, his Department will continue to work with point about loneliness and its impact on mental health. local leaders and Members of Parliament? Will he also She will know that support bubbles still exist, but she confirm that there are no plans to move the Tees Valley, alludes to a broader point about long-term mental and specifically Redcar and Cleveland where cases have health support. As I said in answer to my hon. Friend recently dropped, into tier 3? the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford), we 1077 Covid-19Restrictions:SouthYorkshire21 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Restrictions: South 1078 Yorkshire [Edward Argar] (Hove) (Lab): Local and regional authority leaders from South Yorkshire and right the way across have invested heavily in the NHS, which includes funding the country will have heard the Health Secretary and for mental health support services. The hon. Lady is the Prime Minister repeatedly say in the past 24 hours right: this is not just about funding during this pandemic; that they cannot exceed the items offered to Merseyside this is about being aware of people’s long-term needs in their negotiations elsewhere. Will the Minister at least and the impact on them. I am happy to commit to be honest and say that this is not a negotiation? It is a considering that issue carefully in the months and years take-it-or-leave-it deal that other authorities can take. ahead. Those who lead authorities have to ask themselves the question: what is the point of negotiating? Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): These tough measures will have a huge impact on the lives of local Edward Argar: The hon. Gentleman knows I have people.Can my hon. Friend assure me that the Government huge respect for him—indeed, a huge fondness for him will do everything they can to provide an extensive —but I am afraid I cannot agree with what he says. We package of support to local people, businesses and have been working very closely in a collegiate way with councils and that his Department will continue to do local authorities. It is absolutely right that, alongside everything it can to avoid the need for such a lockdown that negotiation or discussion on the package and support in Stockton South? they need, we recognise that we have to be fair and proportionate across other regions that are in the same Edward Argar: I can give my hon. Friend exactly that tier. We have to ensure that the approach we are adopting, assurance. which we are, is both fair and proportionate.

Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): North hospitality and tourism industry in Cumbria is comfortably East Derbyshire sits on the outskirts of South Yorkshire our biggest employer. It was very much looking forward and many towns and villages, such as Dronfield, Eckington, to half-term next week, as a chance for businesses to Killamarsh and Ridgeway, look towards Sheffield for pick up after the enormous damage they have sustained work and education. For the benefit of those residents, as a result of the virus. However,we are seeing cancellation will the Minister confirm that there has been no change after cancellation, because neighbouring economies in to the tier level in North East Derbyshire, that the rules Lancashire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside and now, remain the same unless those residents are travelling to of course, other parts of the north England have been Sheffield and that North East Derbyshire will continue put into tier 3 and people are therefore not able to to be dealt with on an independent basis, while working travel. Rather than quibbling over £5 million, people in closely with Sheffield when we review our tier status in Cumbria are getting nothing—no compensation for future? their businesses collapsing. Will the Minister commit to making sure there is support of the hospitality and Edward Argar: As my hon. Friend knows, I know tourism industry in tier 1 places such as Cumbria, Dronfield having spent a very happy day there with him where our market has dried up because our neighbours in the course of his successful election campaign. I can are in tier 3? reassure him that the situation, as I stand here, remains exactly as he sets out. Mr Speaker: This is about Yorkshire, so if we could mention Yorkshire it would help. Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the Edward Argar: I am sure the point the hon. Gentleman safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am raises will be pertinent to areas in tier 1 nearby to South suspending the House for three minutes. Yorkshire, too. He makes his point typically well. I recognise the impact on the hospitality industry and on 1.29 pm other businesses, not just in the directly affected area Sitting suspended. but more broadly. As I say, he makes his point well, and Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, I am sure the Chancellor will have heard what he says. 4 June). Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): None of us wants to see restrictions like those announced for Yorkshire BILL PRESENTED today, but we all recognise the need to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. However, I am increasingly FINANCIAL SERVICES BILL concerned about the long-term health impact the pandemic is having on things like mental health and long-term Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) serious health conditions. A good example is the recent The Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the commissioning decision by NHS England to withdraw Prime Minister, Steve Barclay, Jesse Norman, John Glen, breast cancer screening units from places such as New Mills, Kemi Badenoch and Wendy Morton, presented a Bill to Buxton and Chapel-en-le-Frith, citing covid as the reason make provision about financial services and markets; to for the withdrawal. Will the Minister agree to meet me, make provision about debt respite schemes; to make so we can discuss how to reinstate breast cancer screening provision about Help-to-Save accounts; and for connected units to High Peak? purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time EdwardArgar:I,orafellowMinisterfromtheDepartment, tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 200) with explanatory will be very happy to meet my hon. Friend. notes (Bill 200-EN). 1079 21 OCTOBER 2020 Vehicle Registration Offences 1080 (Penalty Points) Vehicle Registration Offences on the A27 at Sherfield English in Hampshire and in the (Penalty Points) Kingsnorth area of Ashford in Kent. Nationally, five people are killed and a further 68 receive life-changing Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order injuries every day on our roads. That is one terrible No. 23) family tragedy every 20 minutes. It falls to the police to do their best to address the twin impacts of antisocial 1.33 pm noise and road safety, and I am grateful for all the Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): efforts of my local police commissioner, Katy Bourne, I beg to move, and Chief Constable Jo Shiner. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make vehicle registration This summer has seen a real effort by police offences under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 under Operation Downsway, which I saw at first hand attract driving record penalty points; and for connected purposes. out on patrol with Chief Inspector Jon Carter and The Bill I present today aims to save lives and to Police Constable Van Der Wee. However, despite an relieve the stress on residents living near roads by improving increase in police numbers—380 new officers this year the ability of the police to identify,and therefore prosecute, in Sussex and more than 4,000 nationwide—the police antisocial or reckless road users. I should like to be clear simply cannot be everywhere all the time. Cameras play that the Bill is not in any way about targeting motorcyclists a vital role in extending their eyes, and that is where or, indeed, motorists in general. There are more than today’s Bill will help by closing a loophole in the law. 1.25 million motorcyclists in the UK. It is a great sport Currently,although speeding offences are endorseable— and industry. I am proud that Destination Triumph has that is, they result in points on the offender’s driving a fantastic dealership for that British-owned brand in licence—the offence of displaying a non-compliant number Washington in my constituency. plate, or even of displaying no number plate at all, The vast majority of motorcyclists use the roads carries only a fine. That enables antisocial drivers on responsibly and West Sussex welcomes careful riders and our roads, especially in rural areas, to defy both speed drivers alike. I arrived at the subject of the Bill, however, and number plate recognition cameras with relative as a result of the misery inflicted on my constituents impunity. That is particularly true for owners of high- every summer, but which reached a new intensity during performance bikes costing tens of thousands of pounds, lockdown—misery because, on a day when the roads where a £100 fine for infringing the law on public roads are dry, the residents of small towns and villages are is far less than the cost of admission to a private and woken by the sound of motorcycles and there is no regulated track day. respite until sunset. In places around Wisborough Green, While I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members Petworth, Bury Hill, Coldwaltham and Tillington, my have no first-hand familiarity with the matter, when it constituents have to keep their windows closed, however comes to driving, points definitely do not mean prizes. warm the day. Pedestrians feel intimidated and this issue More points mean substantially higher insurance premiums, causes a great deal of mental stress. and multiple offences quickly make the loss of a licence This is not just about noise. My constituents travel on a real consideration. Unlike a fine, penalty points are a statistically the most dangerous roads in the whole of real sanction and are more likely to change behaviour. Sussex. In fact, the Observer reported last Indeed, I believe that the Home Office Surveillance month that the Road Safety Federation identified the Camera Commissioner’s working group has made a A285 between Petworth and Chichester as one of the similar plea for more robust penalties in this area. worst in the whole UK, with 29 serious and fatal crashes Let me conclude by asking the Government and hon. between 2013 and 2018. Nearly two thirds of those Members from across the House to join me in supporting involved motorcyclists. Similarly dangerous roads include this Bill today. No novelty or innovation is required. It the A272 from Tillington to Cowfold, the A283 between marries an existing offence with an existing sanction Fittleworth and Steyning and the A29 from Bury Hill to that is a tried and tested part of the motoring statute Adversane. These all carry a particularly dangerous mix book. It is a measure that has support from the police of vehicle types, even before the addition of a speeding and residents alike. It is clear and simple and does motorcycle or sports car. Even the shortest journey is exactly what it says on the tin. I am therefore pleased to likely to include an encounter with tractors and combines, commend the Bill to the House. a peloton of bicycles or the local bus service. Things will Question put and agreed to. improve when the long-awaited A27 Arundel bypass is Ordered, built and takes heavy goods vehicles away from the most dangerous A roads that I have mentioned, but the upgrade ThatAndrewGriffith,MrAndrewMitchell,BobBlackman, was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary Caroline Nokes,Damian Green, Damian Hinds,Mrs Flick of State for Transport only last week and will therefore Drummond, Henry Smith, James Sunderland, Sir Mike take many years to arrive. Penning, Sir Peter Bottomley, and Tim Loughton present the Bill. This issue is not confined to Arundel and South Downs. Members of this House who are supporting Andrew Griffith accordingly presented the Bill. today’s Bill have told me of their concerns about the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on same issue on the A32 and the A272 in the Meon Valley, Friday 27 November, and to be presented (Bill 201) 1081 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1082 Fair Economic Support Members did not bother to turn up for those votes, Opposition Day including the one on the rule of six. If the Opposition get their way and have votes on localised restrictions, 13TH ALLOTTED DAY will they even turn up? Angela Rayner: As the hon. Member has turned up Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: today, I hope he will do the right thing and support Fair Economic Support people with an economic package so that they can do the right thing and we can save people’s lives across Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I Greater Manchester and the whole of this country. I should inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected hope he will do the right thing and support us in the the manuscript amendment in the name of the Prime Lobby tonight. Minister. He has done this because the motion was tabled only shortly before the moment of interruption The Government have not given us the chance to have yesterday, and because one of his predecessors selected our say, so today we are giving the House the chance to a manuscript amendment to an Opposition day motion do so. Our motion calls for the Government to bring in comparable circumstances on Monday 3 December forward fair national criteria for financial support in 2001, thus creating a precedent. areas facing additional restrictions, and it provides for Members to have a vote on the criteria. 1.41 pm MrTanmanjeetSinghDhesi(Slough)(Lab):Icongratulate Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab): I beg to my hon. Friend on making some excellent points in her move, speech. Given that the Government’s strategy to deal That this House calls on the Government to publish clear and with the pandemic is not working, does she agree that, fair national criteria for financial support for jobs and businesses rather than using divisive tactics and treating the regions in areas facing additional restrictions, to be voted on in Parliament; of our nation with utter contempt, the Prime Minister and calls on the Government to make good on its claim that needs to adopt a united, one nation approach? Does she workers faced with hardship who are subject to the Job Support Scheme extension will receive at least 80 percent of their previous also agree that, if we want to impose stricter measures, incomes. we need to provide support to individuals and businesses, I start by placing on record my thanks to the staff at and that we cannot have lockdown on the cheap? Stepping Hill Hospital in Stockport who recently cared Angela Rayner: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. for my aunt, who died of coronavirus last week. I speak Over the past 24 hours, the people of Greater Manchester, today not just as a Member of this House, or just as a regardless of their political persuasions or colours, have Mancunian, but as someone like the many others across been absolutely dismayed by the way in which our our city and our country who have in the past few weeks democratically elected Mayor has been treated, but this lost loved ones to this terrible virus. That, more than is about the treatment not just of our Mayor but of the anything, is why I come here wanting the Government people of Greater Manchester. This is not some spiteful not to fail but to succeed, because lives literally depend little game; this is about people’s lives, people’s loved on it. ones and people’s jobs. They have spent years building We know that a public health response will save lives up our economy in Greater Manchester. This Government only if it is supported by a fair economic settlement. choosing the path that they have chosen has done one The British people want to do the right thing, and they thing for Greater Manchester: it has completely brought will do the right thing, but we need to support them in us together in saying that this Government and Prime doing so. That is why I was so appalled by what I Minister must do the right thing by the whole of our nation witnessed yesterday.I was with fellow Greater Manchester and support everywhere, not pick us off one by one. MPs on a Zoom call with the Health Secretary, who was handing us scraps from the Prime Minister, while our Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What advice elected Mayor found out from Twitter. The Government would the hon. Lady offer my constituents in the Vale then tried to blame it all on our Mayor for not doing of Glamorgan, where the infection rates are exceptionally what he was ordered to do from Whitehall. I have heard low, given that a one-size-fits-all approach has been of power without accountability, but apparently the taken across the whole of Wales? Retailers, hairdressers, Government’sidea of devolution is accountability without personal service providers, beauticians and all those the power. sorts of businesses have been closed, irrespective of the We were offered £8 per head—or, to put it another exceptionally low rate. Does that make sense? What does way, 30 seconds of work for a consultant working on she have to say to those businesses that have invested the collapsed test and trace system. Let me say this: all their time, effort, money and innovation in creating £8 per person is an insult. And now the Government are employment and wealth? attempting to play us off against each other across GM. Well, let me tell the Prime Minister: our Mayor stood Angela Rayner: The right hon. Member makes a up for Greater Manchester, but he spoke for Great point about what the are doing. Britain. Indeed, his call for Parliament to have a say and What they are doing is putting people, business and a vote on these measures is one that so many Government lives first. They are working with local government and Members have made. with businesses to bring the R number down. The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies has said Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): On that the plan for Greater Manchester as it currently the point about votes in Parliament, many of us called stands will not bring the R rate down and that it will for votes in this place on national restrictions a couple lead us into poverty and destitution. When I speak to of weeks ago but, unfortunately,near enough all Opposition the experts, they tell me that poverty and destitution 1083 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1084 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support have a link to how deadly this virus is. In parts of areas Angela Rayner: The hon. Member invites me to be such as Oldham in my constituency that have faced clear and honest, and the one thing that probably most restrictions since July—I have not been able to see my people know is that I tell it how it is and I always have. I granddaughter because of those restrictions—the rates can be clear and honest with him: the Prime Minister’s have gone up. We do not want to plunge our businesses plan, as it currently stands, will not protect the people into destitution. I am proud of the Welsh Government’s of Greater Manchester and will plunge us into more defence of the people and their support for the people poverty. We have seen the evidence that says that. I of Wales. I just wish we had a better Government here promise him and other hon. Members across the House in Parliament. that the Labour party will always put the people, and Our motion calls on the Government to implement the protection and security of the people, first. I ask the their own promise that workers on the job support scheme hon. Member to get the Prime Minister to do the same extension will receive at least 80% of their previous thing, instead of playing party politics with people’s income. I remember the promises the Prime Minister lives and livelihoods. made, not just in this crisis but before it. He offered Today this House can vote for a fair deal for all and levelling up for communities such as mine, but he is not to end these political games. No more will the Health levelling us up; he is letting us down. Under Thatcher, Secretary have to tour the country like a pound shop we were consigned to managed decline, but now it feels Noel Edmonds, announcing “Deal or no deal?”. The like mismanaged decline. And it is not just a conflict Government can honour their own promises that every between the north and the south, or between London worker facing hardship on the job support scheme will and the rest. The elected leaders of our nation’s cities, get at least 80% of their previous income, because what regions and countries have been treated with the same is good enough for the office worker in the City of contempt, from Wales to Wigan. London is good enough for the caterer in the city of Manchester, and what was good enough for the whole Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I pass on the country in March is good enough for the midlands and condolences of the Scottish National party to the hon. the north today. We are trying to hold the Government Lady and her family on the loss of her aunt. to their own promises. Businesses need consistency, and We are not in a position to field a Front-Bench they need that promise honoured. spokesperson today—that might have been easier if the The Prime Minister told the House on 14 October Government had allowed us virtual participation—but that I can confirm that we will support the official Opposition in the Lobby this evening, precisely because of the hon. “whatever happens, a combination of the job support scheme and Lady’s point about the need for support across the UK. universal credit will mean that nobody gets less than 93% of their current income.”—[Official Report, 14 October 2020; Vol. 682, Any enhanced package that is provided to Liverpool, c. 368.] Greater Manchester and South Yorkshire must attract consequentials above what has already been guaranteed He then said that those on low incomes will get at least to Scotland. Scottish businesses are looking at the additional 80% of their income. Perhaps he can tell that to the package of support that the Government have found waitress in my constituency who earned £9 an hour on a for these English regions, and expect additional funding 32-hour week, serving in a central Manchester bar that to be delivered to Scotland. Does she agree that that has now closed. The Resolution Foundation has shown should happen for Scotland and the other devolved that she will end up with less than 70% of that wage Administrations? under the Government’s current plan. So the Government are telling my constituents to survive on less than the Angela Rayner: I thank the hon. Member for his minimum wage for months, because the Government contribution. I absolutely agree.All our nations and regions cannot tell us when an area will leave tier 3 and how —the whole of Great Britain—have to come together, those restrictions will be lifted. because this virus is a challenge for us all. We cannot treat people in different parts of the country and in our Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I am grateful nations disproportionately and disgracefully. to my hon. Friend for giving way and thank her for the In Greater Manchester,we were promised a powerhouse, case that she is making. Is she interested, as I am, that but what we have at the moment is a power grab. Even not a single one of the interventions that she has faced here in London, just this week, the Government have from the Conservative side has been relevant to the threatened to seize control of the tube. We now have a motion that we are debating? They all seem to be Prime Minister so determined to punish a Labour Mayor dragging us back on to Labour party policy, rather than that he wants to whack a transport tax on his own standing up for the financial settlement that they are constituents, yet the Government still refuse to take the offering to Manchester, and that we know will be going decisive national action that is needed. Instead, they to so many other areas. So can she help me in inviting have tried to play people off against each other—divide them to actually speak about the 80% that we are trying and misrule. to ensure gets into some of the most impoverished people’s—some of the most impoverished workers’— Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I am pockets, rather than trying to change the debate into the very sorry to hear about the hon. Lady’s aunt. one they want to have? Will the hon. Lady she be straight and honest with British citizens when she talks about a national lockdown? Angela Rayner: I thank my hon. Friend for his Is it not the reality that the SAGE paper says that it contribution. I will go a little bit further and compliment might take multiple circuit breakers to keep this virus at some of the Tory Members who have stood up as part low levels? Will she be clear about the impact that that of Greater Manchester,and I will be incredibly disappointed would have on jobs and businesses in this country? if what I have seen over the past 24 hours results in this 1085 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1086 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Angela Rayner] Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution, which highlights becoming a party political fight. Because in Greater the points. Does she agree that much of the debate is Manchester, despite what the Prime Minister and the around tier 3 support, not to say that tier 2 areas have Health Secretary were trying to suggest, we were united no support whatsoever, which emphasises the point that in trying to support our citizens across the conurbation she makes? in doing the right thing, bringing the virus rate down and supporting our economy. I hope we can continue to Angela Rayner: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. do that. I hope we do not get distracted by messages I say to the hon. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) that are not in the motion, and I absolutely hope the who keeps chuntering: you had your chance, mate. Let Prime Minister does the right thing, because this is not other people in. just about Greater Manchester—this is coming to a For hundreds of years, Mancunians have been told to town near you. In so many areas now, the R number is know our place, but we have never listened—from the increasing. So many areas are in tier 2; so many areas People’s History Museum to the Mechanics Institute, are going to go into tier 3. This is a marker to ensure from our science and industry to women’s suffrage. We that our economy survives through those problems. will not be told what our place is, and we will not be bullied into taking it. We are proud of our history and Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): On that proud of our collective contribution to our great country point about coming to a town near you: it is indeed and determined to build a great future together. coming to cities and towns in the Sheffield city region, it This is not just about Greater Manchester; this is was announced today. The package of assistance is about all of us. We will not be picked off one by one. We totally inadequate. It is nothing like what the leaders will not be offered the crumbs when we helped bake the and the Mayor asked for. It is exactly the same as has loaf. We deserve a fair slice and our people deserve a been offered to other areas—the standard package. It is Government willing to protect them and to do as the not locally negotiated; it is the standard package. As the Chancellor promised—“Whatever it takes”. In recent days, leader of Rotherham said, “They put lots of civil servants it has been Lancashire, Liverpool and Greater Manchester. into a room with us to tell us what we couldn’t have.” Next week, and in the weeks ahead, it will be communities That is actually what has been happening in the negotiations. in other parts of the country that find themselves in tier 3. If the Government are prepared to wilfully inflict Angela Rayner: I thank my hon. Friend for his insight. so much harm on their own people in the middle of a Many of the local leaders I have heard from have said pandemic in one part of the country, they will do it to that it felt like they had been blackmailed and pressurised people elsewhere as well. into taking a deal. Greater Manchester and the Mayor were not just trying arbitrarily to get more than somewhere We are staring down the barrel of a bleak winter, else. We put a package together based on the needs of because the Government have lost control of the virus: our city, our conurbation, our lowest-paid and the infections are rising; hospital admissions are rising; and businesses that needed the support. It was not a bargaining deaths, tragically, are rising. The testing system has chip to get this or that; it was about making sure that collapsed. People and businesses across the country will there was a floor that meant people were given the support be anxious that they will not be able to make ends meet that, by the way, this Government promised. They and put food on the table. Our motion today will ensure promised that support, and we are just asking them to a fair national deal for the country, a vote of this House keep to their promise. on it and the Government’s own promises to workers kept. Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend this motion Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): Does my to the House. hon. Friend agree that it is grossly unfair that while the Prime Minister, reportedly, is complaining about not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. being able to live off £150 k a year, he is expecting my [Interruption.] Do not heckle me while I am on my feet. constituents in Nottingham, and all the constituents of I call Steve Barclay to move the manuscript amendment. every one of us in this House, to live off two thirds of the minimum wage unless a proper economic settlement 2.2 pm is provided? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): I beg to move a manuscript amendment, to leave out Angela Rayner: I thank my hon. Friend for her from “House” to the end of the Question and add: contribution. People on the Government Benches might “recognises the virus is spreading differently across the country grunt, but my hon. Friend was a care worker before which supports the need for a regional and local approach; coming into Parliament, like myself, and knows exactly acknowledges the fact that repeated national lockdowns should how people on the minimum wage feel, and I commend be avoided given the cost they have on mental wellbeing, access to her for standing up for her constituents, not leaving NHS treatment, and jobs in the economy; supports the Government’s them behind like many Members on those Benches seem Job Support Scheme which protects the jobs and incomes of to be doing now. those in affected businesses; recognises the extra financial support provided to Local Authorities for enforcement, local contact Even the two-thirds wage support under the job tracing and businesses, and approves of Government trying to support scheme extension is only available to businesses work with local representatives to improve enforcement and Test legally required to close. Someone who works for a firm and Trace.”. that is not required to close, but whose business is May I begin by expressing my condolences, and the severely impacted as a result of the restrictions—such condolences of colleagues on these Benches, to the hon. as a brewery supplying pubs that have to close—gets Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) on absolutely nothing. the loss of her aunt? 1087 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1088 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support The hon. Lady was right in her opening speech to concerns of Members across the House is about decisions talk about the shared desire of the British people whom taken in Wales that have an economic impact. It is we represent to do the right thing. That is why all important that these decisions are co-ordinated through Members of this House want to protect the lives not the Joint Biosecurity Centre, in order that we have a just of our family members, but of our constituents and consistent, scientific approach. That is a key issue that a to balance the actions that are needed to do so with number of Members have concerns about. protecting jobs and businesses. The best way to make good for the workers whom she referenced in her motion Mr Perkins: The Minister suggested a moment ago is to reduce the spread of the virus through targeted that the Mayor of Manchester had not been constructive; action. That is why the Prime Minister was right to he praised how constructive the Mayors who had come outline a balanced approach, taking the difficult decisions to an agreement with him were. The Mayor of Manchester to save lives and keep the R rate down while doing made a request for £90 million and was willing to be everything in our power to protect the jobs and livelihoods negotiated all the way down to £65 million, which of the British people. Indeed, the deputy chief medical sounds incredibly constructive to me. In the spirit of officer said just yesterday, when supporting the tiered trying to bring everyone back together, would it not be regional approach, that it would be “inappropriate” to better for him to recognise that the Mayor of Manchester enforce a national circuit breaker as it is not is doing what he thinks is right—as are other Mayors and council leaders in other areas, whether or not they “consistent with the epidemiological picture.” agree with the position that the Prime Minister and the In fact, to be fair, the shadow Health Secretary was right Government come up with—and to say that everyone in also to talk about the wider damage of a national this is attempting to be constructive? lockdown on our economy and society. Steve Barclay: I was making a factual point that Alun Cairns: The evidence from the deputy chief picked up on the opening remarks of the hon. Member medical officer in England is quite stark, and the statements for Ashton-under-Lyne. The Mayor of Manchester, in really make people pay attention. Has my right hon. Friend his discussions with Government, expressly said that seen any counter-evidence from the Welsh Government Manchester should be treated differently from other to suggest that one size fits all? My constituents in the areas. The hon. Lady said that the Mayor of Manchester Vale of Glamorgan have to face the lockdown of all “spoke for Great Britain”. That does a disservice to businesses, as we did in March, in spite of the area having other local leaders, who have also spoken for their areas exceptionally low infection rates. and have worked constructively with Government. I do not think it is the case that the Mayor of Manchester, Steve Barclay: What was clear from what the deputy unlike the Mayor of Liverpool, speaks for Great Britain chief medical officer said was the importance of targeted in the way that the hon. Lady suggested. action. There has been concern in respect of the Welsh The Mayor of Manchester’s position is not deliverable Government, but I recognise that all leaders are balancing operationally, because local authorities do not have these difficult decisions. That is why I pay tribute to the access to welfare payments for the dynamic aspect of leadership in Liverpool, Lancashire and South Yorkshire, joint job support—I can come on to that in my remarks— who have worked constructively with the Government. and it was at odds with the tiering approach that we set out. There is a difference, I am sorry to say, between the (Rhondda) (Lab): Today is the anniversary approach taken by the Mayor of Manchester and the of the terrible events at Aberfan, and none of us will constructive approach taken by other local leaders. I do ever forget in Wales. I am enormously grateful to the not accept the premise from the hon. Lady that the Minister for providing £2.5 million for the moving of Mayor of Manchester alone speaks for Great Britain, the tip in Tylorstown; I hope that that is just a down- and other local leaders in Liverpool, Lancashire, South payment on the rest of the money that will come. Will Yorkshire and elsewhere do not, or that businesses in the Barnett formula be applied to all the financial those areas should in some way be treated worse than awards that have been made to Manchester, Lancashire the businesses in Manchester—that seems a remarkable and other parts of England, so that additional money position for the Opposition to take. comes to Wales? My biggest fear is that there are so many businesses and individual tradespeople who simply Several hon. Members rose— cannot afford to take a fortnight off to self-isolate unless there is financial support for them. Steve Barclay: I will make a little progress and then of course I will give way. Steve Barclay: First, the hon. Gentleman is right to In taking forward the targeted action plan that the recognise the importance of today, the anniversary of a Prime Minister has set out, we recognise that there will national tragedy that unites us all. As I said to him last be significant local economic impacts, particularly for time, I am keen to work with him constructively, as I the areas in tier 3. That is why the Government have set know he is, to take that work forward. Later today, I out a package of support, and indeed why, as I say, the have a call with the Finance Ministers in the Scottish, Mayors in other areas have worked constructively with Welsh and Northern Ireland Administrations, so I will it. This package has a number of parts. I heard reference be able to talk further about that. As a fellow Unionist, in the shadow Minister’s opening remarks to £8 per head. he will know that one of the advantages we have had That is just one component of a much wider package. It throughout this pandemic is the broad shoulders we may therefore be helpful to take the House through the have been able to provide as a United Kingdom to the full suite of funding that is available. various business support and job support measures. First, local authorities are absolutely critical to the What is announced for England is subject to the usual tier 3 restrictions. That is why,in addition to the £3.7 billion Barnett process, and I will discuss that. One of the of un-ring-fenced grants that were announced earlier 1089 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1090 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Steve Barclay] Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): The reality is that whether in Lancashire, Liverpool, South this year,the Prime Minister announced a further £1 billion Yorkshire or Manchester, there are insufficiencies in the of support, so that is agreed funding for local authorities package that the Government are putting on the table. I that will be allocated to them shortly. In addition to know from my own constituents in York Central, now that, local authorities in tier 3 will receive a further in tier 2, that our economy is collapsing. We need to £8 per head in respect of public health measures specifically have the proper underpinning, and that is why we need linked to enforcement within the outbreak management the dialogue. Different economies across the country fund. That goes alongside other measures such as the have different complexities and different needs, and that availability of military support, which sits in addition to is what the Minister really needs to get a grip of. the infection control funding that local authorities also have access to—a further £300 million that will support Steve Barclay: Sure, but for much of the passage of localised test and trace services, specifically within tier 3— dealing with the pandemic, Opposition Members have and the £1.1 billion to support infection control within often cited international comparisons. Now, when we the adult social care sector. Before we get on to the point out that the scheme we have brought forward discussion around business support or the support for does stand very strong comparison internationally—in individuals through the job support scheme, it is important fact, the furlough scheme for eight months at 80% was not to talk about local authority support just in terms way above what most international comparators offered— of £8 per head, because that is one component of a they say, “Actually, we do not want to apply international much wider package of support that the Prime Minister standards anymore. We want to apply a purely bespoke has announced. approach.” The hon. Lady is right to point to the fact that Mr Betts: I welcome the support for local testing, businesses are facing real pain. There is huge pressure tracking and tracing. It should have been done months on jobs, and that is why the Chancellor set out, in the ago: that is the reality of the situation. As regards local summer economic update,the acceleration of infrastructure negotiations—I put this to the Health Secretary last schemes—I think she and I would agree on them—such night and he did not deny it—there are not negotiations; as the green jobs for decarbonising public sector buildings there is a financial package that the Government have and how we will meet our net zero obligations. I suspect decided on that has been offered to all areas that have we share the desire to create jobs through moving that been put up to tier 3 status. It is a case of saying, “Take forward and the acceleration of infrastructure through it or leave it: there’sno extra money going to be negotiated.” Project Speed. That is exactly what leaders in South Yorkshire have said it is: lots of civil servants in a room telling us what The Chancellor set out his plan for jobs—the doubling we cannot have. These have been the discussions, not of work coaches, the tripling of traineeships, the £2,000 negotiations, that have been happening in South Yorkshire for apprenticeships—because, as the hon. Lady rightly in the past few days. identifies, those businesses are under significant pressure. That is why, alongside the package of measures for local Steve Barclay: There has been a framework that we authorities, we have also applied business grant support have used to shape our discussions. However, is this not of over£11billion,includingfundingof leisureandhospitality what the Opposition motion, in essence, is calling for—a grants of between £10,000 and £25,000. Further to that, nationalised approach? In fact, we just heard an Opposition the Government have allocated discretionary business Member calling for the exact opposite in saying that the support to mayors,in the case of Liverpool and Lancashire, Mayor of Manchester had a case that was supposedly of a further £30 million. To help businesses with their better than that of the Mayors in Liverpool or South fixed costs, such as rent and bills, we have also introduced Yorkshire, so the Mayor of Manchester should be treated a new business grant scheme in England, and any business a preferential way to constituents elsewhere in the north- legally required to close can now claim up to £3,000 west. Yet the hon. Gentleman, who I know comes at depending on the rateable value of their property. They this very constructively—I recognise that that has always can claim grant payments of up to £1,500 per fortnight been his approach in the House—says something different. and keep claiming that as long as their businesses are There seems to be confusion among Opposition Members. required to close. That is money that does not need to be Do they want a national approach or do they want the repaid. Mayor of Manchester to be able to negotiate something While the grants are England-only, we are the allegedly on behalf of Great Britain? I do not think that Government for the whole United Kingdom. To address was his electoral mandate. the point made by the hon. Member for Rhondda Mr Dhesi: Many individuals are not eligible for either (Chris Bryant), who is no longer in his place, about the self-employed income grant scheme or the coronavirus what that means for the UK’s ability to support businesses job retention scheme. I have been contacted by many of in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—which we are my Slough constituents, particularly the self-employed, committed to doing as the United Kingdom Government who fear that after November they will see their incomes —it means we have guaranteed a further £1.3 billion for plummet. Does the Minister agree that they cannot be Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should they choose ignored and that they need support, especially if they to follow suit. are to go into increased lockdown restrictions? Kevin Hollinrake: Does the Minister agree that the Steve Barclay: I do agree that they cannot be ignored. most important thing we can do for businesses is to In the third section of my speech I will come on to the allow them to stay open and to keep trading? Where we individual support that we have in place and where that are requiring businesses to close, the schemes are good stands in international comparisons. Indeed, we debated and purposeful, but there are some businesses that, that at Treasury questions only yesterday. because of the restrictions—for example, in hospitality 1091 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1092 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support with the one household rule—are effectively unviable as The third area of the Government’s response, which it is restricting their business to such a significant degree. speaks directly to the motion before the House, concerns Will he consider widening the job support scheme, for individual support. Businesses that have been legally example, to those businesses that are just not viable in required to close, whether in tier 3 areas or elsewhere, tier 2 and tier 3 for that reason? will be able to claim a direct wage subsidy. For people unable to work for one week or more, their employer Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, will still pay two thirds of their normal salary and the and we debated this yesterday. Much of the debate is UK Government will cover the cost. The existing furlough about tier 3, but there are businesses that are feeling the scheme continues throughout October, with the new job impact in tier 2, and we are acutely aware of that and we support scheme available from November, so there will are discussing that with business leaders. The key issue be no break in support for employees. To give businesses there is that we have taken toggling measures, for example, and people certainty, the scheme will run for six months the cut in VAT and the extension of the loans. |As he through to the spring. The job support scheme is in line knows, as a senior business figure himself, cash flow is a with schemes in most other major European countries, huge issue for businesses, and the Chancellor has been and to support the lowest paid through the crisis, we very keen to work constructively with all business leaders, have also made our welfare system more generous the trade unions and others, and to consult widely. We and more responsive, with an additional £9 billion of have been willing to listen and to extend, for example, funding. the loans that were available in order to pick up exactly the point my hon. Friend makes in terms of businesses Let me give the House some examples of how the job in tier 3. support scheme will work and interact with universal credit. A single person aged over 25 working full time Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): The Minister mentioned on the national living wage and living in a one-bed, earlier that he will meet the Finance Ministers of Wales, privately rented flat in Manchester will still receive 92% Scotland and Northern Ireland later this afternoon. Is of their original net income. Likewise, thanks to the he in a position to tell the House whether he expects combination of the job support scheme and universal further support packages for Wales to be announced at credit, a couple with one child living in a two-bedroom that meeting ahead of the two-week firebreak that will privately rented house, where one works part time and come in on Friday? the other full time on the national living wage, will receive 90% of their original net income. Steve Barclay: We have a long-standing and established methodology in terms of support across the United The question that was never answered by the Mayor Kingdom through the Barnett process that allows the of Manchester was how he would administer a top-up broad shoulders of the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] of the job support scheme, when he does not operationally I suspect that the hon. Member for Glasgow North have access to the information required to dynamically (Patrick Grady) wants to come in on that point, so I will make the interactions of those payments work. It is not give way. It will be done through the Barnett process, only that he wanted Manchester to be treated differently but there are some specific issues raised, such as the from Liverpool and Lancashire; he was also changing guarantee, which we have discussed previously. the purpose of the business support payments from one that was directed at supporting businesses in tier 3 areas Patrick Grady: When the Minister meets the Finance to one that was about changes to our welfare provision Ministers this afternoon, he will hopefully be able to across the entire United Kingdom. answer the points that the Scottish Finance Secretary I know that many of my hon. and right hon. Friends raised in her letter to the Chancellor this morning have been engaging constructively with the Government asking for clarification about precisely this issue. We during these challenging times. In particular, I thank welcome the £700 million for support, but it is not clear my hon. Friends the Members for South Ribble (Katherine whether that is purely for business support or whether it Fletcher), for Leigh (James Grundy), for Penistone and is supposed to cover all the additional consequences Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) and for Southport (Damien and costs that come from covid, including for the health Moore). Despite being relatively new to this House, service. It is important that devolved Administrations they have shown real leadership in their communities, are given the support they need and any consequences supporting families, businesses and the vulnerable, and that come from additional funding to the city regions. a determination to put their constituents first and do all Steve Barclay: I was reading that very letter at my we can to stop the spread of this dreadful virus. desk this morning ahead of the meeting, and I know This Government are always willing to listen and to exactly the point that the hon. Gentleman refers to. We work with local leaders. The critical point is that none recognise—I think this was behind the constructive of these policies exists in isolation. Taken together as a discussions we have had with the Scottish, Welsh and package, the economic support that we are providing Northern Irish Governments—that we all need to display for areas facing higher restrictions is broad, deep and flexibility, given the unprecedented nature of covid. The consistent, and of course all that is on top of the volatility of the size of additional payments for covid £200 billion of support that we have already provided is why we gave the guarantee, which I think the hon. through our plan for jobs. I urge anyone who questions Gentleman would equally concede was welcomed by the support that we are providing to look at the whole the Scottish Government, as it allowed clearer planning plan that we have set out: half a billion pounds for local in their response to covid. However, I would also make enforcement; over a billion pounds for local business the point—on this we may disagree—that it is the broad support; grants of half a billion pounds for businesses shoulders of the United Kingdom that allow the scale ordered to close every month; billions of pounds to of the UK Government’s response, which has protected support jobs and incomes; and billions more to strengthen so many jobs and businesses in Scotland. our welfare safety net. This Government will continue 1093 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1094 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Steve Barclay] Thisweek,thecityof Manchesterhashada17%reduction in reported coronavirus cases. The conurbation as a to protect the jobs and livelihoods of the British people whole has flattened off, yet we have been in these measures in every region of our country, while also taking targeted for 12 weeks—since July—and now the Government action to reduce the spread of the virus. want to shut us down altogether for the next 28 days, with no end in sight. Several hon. Members rose— When I was a young councillor in the early ’90s, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It Manchester was a dying industrial mill town, after over will be obvious to everyone in the Chamber and those a decade of Thatcherism. We have pulled ourselves up who wish to take part but cannot get in because it is by our bootstraps to regenerate our airport and our city very nearly full—I appreciate whythey cannot be here—that and to bring back the jobs that we lost in the lost ’80s. this debate is very over-subscribed. From the very beginning, We are now an international cosmopolitan city, and you the time limit will have to be four minutes. are drawing that away from us. You are pulling the rug from under our feet by making our citizens materially 2.25 pm worse off. This has to stop. Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Not 2.29 pm since the Peterloo massacre of 1819 has the state displayed James Grundy (Leigh) (Con): First, since so many such coercive power over the people of Greater Manchester. colleagues wish to speak on this subject and the time Oh, the irony of those talking about one nation available is so limited, I hope the House will understand Conservatism. It was Mayor Burnham who stood on if I do not take interventions. Secondly, I declare an almost exactly the same spot as Disraeli did in 1872 and interest as a sitting member of Wigan Metropolitan spoke for a nation about what you are doing to our Borough Council since it has been a party to the cities through this tiered system. negotiations regarding Greater Manchester moving to What we have seen this week has been nothing short tier 3 yesterday. of chaotic and incompetent. On Monday last week, the I regret deeply the fact that negotiations collapsed Secretary of State for Health told Greater Manchester yesterday in Greater Manchester, but it is imperative MPs that we would be going into tier 2 lockdown—we that negotiations continue even if one of the local had been there for 12 weeks, since July, without any leaders has left the negotiating table. I am glad to hear support. Do you know what? He had unanimity in that that the Government share this view and that negotiations room—he had our full support. Do you know what are ongoing with other local leaders. My understanding else? That night, The Times leaked that we were going is that, as well as the base grant of £22 million, the into tier 3. That was leaked to the national press. Seven additional £60 million is still on the table for a total days of negotiation follows—we are just seven days settlement of £82 million. I hope the Minister and other older—and, to make it worse, then leaked right hon. Friends will meet me, other Greater Manchester that we were running out of intensive care unit capacity. MPs and council leaders to achieve a settlement as soon What the Government have forgotten is that the former as possible, given the urgency of the situation. Chancellor, the former right hon. Member for Tatton, Concerns very much remain about support for those gave us devolved function over some of our NHS services, on the minimum wage and the self-employed. I know so we know exactly what is going on in the hospitals. I the Minister referred to this, but I do hope a mechanism am looking up at the Press Gallery—the Manchester can be found so that we can address this. I am keen to Guardian should have known better than to be leaking see those concerns resolved. I am also keen to keep against the city where it was founded after the massacre. sectors open that might consist of only a single business This makes us so angry, up in the north. in my constituency—such as the Treetops soft play The Government came to power on the promise of facility in Golborne or BJ’s Bingo hall in Leigh—which levelling up; those watching from Greater Manchester I believe may still be able to operate in a covid-secure today will be reflecting on the emptiness of that promise. manner. It is vital that those businesses assessed as safe Tier 3 restrictions will hasten a tsunami of mental to remain open are allowed to do so. The fewer businesses health problems already being reported to me by local that close, the more generous we can be to those that general practitioners. Along with protecting people’s have no choice but to close. I would refer to the example incomes, the Government need to prevent a mental health of how Lancashire successfully negotiated to keep gym crisis. facilities open. We in this place are asking so much of the British Additionally, I would like to ask that the Government people, who have gone through so much for us. The offer some hope to my constituents with regard to coronavirus has them at their wits’ end. Another local tier 3. Should infection rates fall by a suitable level after Wythenshaweherofrommyconstituency,MarcusRashford, the initial 28-day period has expired, I would ask that will be the subject of the next debate in this House. We the Government consider lifting the tier 3 restrictions. are going to heap poverty upon the poverty of the Finally, we know that a vaccine appears to be on the people who go into tier 3 restrictions. The Prime Minister horizon. I hope the Government will prioritise those does not know how an area gets out of tier 3 restrictions areas suffering from the burden of tier 3 restrictions for —he did not know the answer today when challenged the roll-out of any such a vaccine so that our lives can, by the Leader of the Opposition. Not only will we face at last, begin to return to normal. further poverty in areas that go into tier 3 restrictions, but we are now cutting off the food supply of the 2.32 pm youngest people. Marcus Rashford is teaching the Prime Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Like my hon. Minister a thing or two about how to bring people along Friends, I am deeply disappointed and angry with the when tackling such an important issue. Government’s approach to the negotiations, if indeed 1095 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1096 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support they can be called that. Negotiations, I believe, involve 2.36 pm listening with time allocated so that all can make their Mr (Hazel Grove) (Con): It is a views heard, but this has not been the case with the calls pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Makerfield I have been on or the reports I have heard from local (Yvonne Fovargue). I pass on my condolences to the leaders. Putting an amount of money on the table and hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), saying “This is what you’re going to get”is not negotiating. whose aunt sadly passed away in the hospital that serves What did Ministers expect—that Manchester would say, my constituency. “Oh, we don’t want quite that much, thank you very This is my first time participating in an Opposition much”? day debate. I am told that they are good practice, akin Now we are going to be placed in tier 3, with the to a sixth-form debating society, or else a means to catch Government wanting to divide and rule and to talk to the favourable eye of the Government Whips Office local leaders individually, not through the democratically with a series of rhetorical flourishes against the Opposition. elected Mayor of Manchester. It is probably worth Indeed, a helpful sheet of interventions is, as ever, reminding Conservative Members that it was a Conservative provided for members of the young thrusters club, for Government who insisted on a Greater Manchester which I fell short of the membership requirements. Mayor and that Andy Burnham was overwhelmingly Of course, my perspective is shaped by recent events elected to do that role. However, when he does the job in Greater Manchester, which have been unfortunate, to he was elected to do—stands up for the residents of say the least. Let me set out my position clearly: I do not Greater Manchester and refuses to allow them to be support tier 3 measures because of their wider effects. pushed into poverty—this Government brief against Perversely, the closure of covid-secure premises will make him and want to deal with individual leaders. This it more likely that people will meet in each other’s homes, divisive strategy should not be allowed to work. where we know there is a far higher rate of transmission. It is far too easy to call the money business support, The isolation and loneliness that people are feeling is as if it is given to faceless entities, but it is not. It is for palpable. Increasingly, I speak with distressed constituents families—the supply chain of people and families behind who are not able to enjoy a reasonable quality of life. those businesses—and it is also for community hubs in There are support bubbles, but many vulnerable people many cases. In my constituency, sports clubs such as are living in fear, terrified of criminalising themselves Highfield cricket club and the Ashton Bears are relying inadvertently, simply through usual human interactions. on bar sales to continue to provide sporting facilities. Without support, some of these clubs may no longer To the wider point of restrictions on businesses, I am survive. Equally, of the more than 200 pubs in Wigan, sure I speak for many of them in saying that they would many are wet pubs. They are not bistros and eateries much sooner be open and able to operate in a covid-secure serving food, but they have been an important part of way, given the significant amount of investment that the community for many years. The people who run they have made in measures. They want to trade, not be them are worried about how they will survive another given aid. Too often in the debate so far, it has sounded lockdown with no end in sight. as if the north is coming with a begging bowl. We are a perspicacious,hard-working people.Wewant our businesses For all the people affected, the furlough payments to operate and provide livelihoods and jobs for others. will change from 80% to 67%. Wigan is a low-wage We do not want to come with a begging bowl. economy and that is a crushing blow for many people, with Christmas just around the corner. Universal credit If it is the case that businesses must close by law, is no replacement because of its waiting period and however, it is only right that their local representatives because most families with an average income of £20,000 strive for every penny of support from the Government would see a substantial drop in their household income. who have mandated their closure. At the same time, I Recovery action for debts, including bailiffs’ actions, am afraid that it is also right, given the circumstances, restarted at the end of August. Families are faced with that local councils now deal with my right hon. Friend having67%of theirincome—twothirds—butunfortunately, the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and during winter, bills do not drop by a third; in fact, Local Government directly to ensure that they have heating bills go up in that time. Debt charities are funds to support the businesses and individuals who already experiencing a spike in calls about council tax will be in desperate need. repayment and repossessions, and they expect a rise of Of course,Iwishthatthatcouldhavebeendonedifferently more than 60% in the current demand. As we move into —and amicably. The House should not underestimate tier 3, there needs to be a renewed package of protection the anger felt by the public at that failure. I do not for people whose income will be hit. I commend the support Labour’s suggestion of a national lockdown, package suggested by Citizens Advice. which makes little sense at all. Despite the theatrics—the I have repeatedly asked for projections of how the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike measures in each tier would affect the virus and what Kane)wasperhapstheHenry“Orator”Huntof ourmodern- the economic impact would be. The Mayor of Greater day Peterloo earlier—Manchester is not yet on the brink Manchester has given me that and has suggested other of a Paris Commune, particularly as its politicians would ways. He has calculated how it would affect businesses make a poor cast for “Les Mis”. However, what concerns and the people behind them, and how much money they me most is the coming hardship, the rising unemployment would need, and nowhere have I seen those figures and some people’sdespair.Indeed, I cannot help but reflect disproved. that the medicine risks being worse than the disease. Divide and rule cannot be the way forward. To control the virus and support businesses and families, I urge the 2.40 pm Minister not to go down the damaging route of setting Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I am really pleased that north against south, region against region, and local the Government have listened to my representations authority against local authority. and those of my city region colleagues about reopening 1097 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1098 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Derek Twigg] The funding package given so far has not met the need. The Government need to provide a much more realistic gyms. That is so important to the mental and physical package of funding and support for businesses and jobs wellbeing of my constituents in Halton. It will also save in Halton. jobs that would otherwise have been lost. I repeat what I said in the Chamber a couple of weeks Despite the business support the Government have ago: in order to get us through this unprecedented crisis already put in place, there are over 2,000 more people in modern times, we need everybody to work together. I unemployed in my constituency than there were in believe that we need a cross-party covid war Cabinet March, and youth unemployment has doubled. Placing that at the very least has my right hon. and learned Halton in tier 3, which I opposed, has hit the hospitality Friend the Leader of Opposition in it. Constituents tell sector particularly hard, impacting especially badly on me that they want politicians to work together to find a low-paid and young people. Even those businesses that way forward and do the right thing. We need to look have managed to remain open, such as restaurants and again at the shielding policy, given that it is older and pubs that serve food, are struggling. The 10 pm curfew the most vulnerable people who are being admitted to has been damaging and no one supports it. Then there hospital, and gain public consent again for the best, most are the restrictions on households meeting, which have common-sense measures, as well as washing our hands, also impacted those hospitality businesses that are still wearing a mask and keeping a 2-metre distance. open. They have had to cut staff hours and lay staff off. I find it heartbreaking to see constituents who have Those businesses also need financial support from the no money, who are desperate and find it really difficult Government. to pay bills. It really is time for the Government to step Tier 3 restrictions will massively impact the supply up to the mark and provide proper and better help to chain that serves the hospitality industry, with the loss everybody in my constituency who needs it. of more jobs. Taxi drivers are also impacted by a loss of income. The Government introduced the tiered approach 2.44 pm to restrictions and, as we have seen in Manchester, they Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con): It is a will be imposed if local leaders do not agree. Therefore, pleasure to speak in this debate, because it is an important the Government have a clear moral responsibility to one. It is important that people understand the level of provide funding that properly supports businesses affected economic support available for their area. More than by tier 3 restrictions. £200 billion has been put there to protect jobs, incomes I have been contacted by self-employed constituents and businesses. who have received little or no support, often because The fact that the Opposition never want to talk about they do not work out of a business premises. I want the the unprecedented package of financial support measures Minister to listen to some of the ordinary voices of my that the Government have already piled into all areas of constituency. This is from a musician and songwriter: the country is extremely telling. Perhaps that is because “Since my last gig in February 2020 I have received absolutely the Government’s record on helping the most vulnerable NO financial aid from the various schemes put in place by this get through this epidemic is outstanding. When we look govt. Although I applied for everything, I and hundreds of thousands like me who have a limited company but no permanent at the job retention scheme, the job support scheme, the work premises…are unable to access any grants, furlough or business grants, VAT deferrals, interest-free loans, help indeed support from the various systems put in place.” with mortgages and much more, it is difficult to argue This is from a sound engineer: that this Government have not economically supported our communities, but I agree that they must continue to “I work as a freelance audio engineer and rigger. I have my own Personal Service Company of which I am the only Director do so. and contractor and I am employed on an event by event basis in I am pleased that packages of financial support are the live entertainment industry. My skills and services contribute being drawn up for areas hit by the toughest restrictions. to the creative industries which include live events, TV, film, If someone’s business is legally required to shut because dance and theatre and which were worth £110bn to the annual of the tier system, it is absolutely right that they should economy as evidenced in the Government’s” be entitled to financial support. It is interesting to own figures. He goes on to say: watch the Labour party now attempting to paint itself “I do not see how I will be able to survive financially.” as being business-friendly.Under the Opposition’sprevious This is from a fitness instructor: leader, the right hon. Member for Islington North “I would be grateful if you could highlight the fact that the (), they were anything but pro-business: majority of fitness instructors, who deliver the group exercise just look at their last manifesto. For them now to claim classes, and personal trainers are self employed and fall into the to be the saviours of business across the country during group that are hardest hit in the climate. The governments 3rd stage the epidemic is laughable. grant of 20% leaves a massive shortfall for people in this field.” What did the former shadow Home Secretary tell This is from another type of business—a coach travel Newsnight about the Leader of the Opposition? He has business. Its owner says: moved his position on remain. He has flip-flopped on “Unfortunately whilst many of the schemes are welcome the Brexit. He has flip-flopped in his support for businesses coach industry doesn’t seem to have any sector support that it and he has flip-flopped on covid. He cannot decide qualifies for despite being an industry hit the hardest. Companies whether he wants a national lockdown or whether he that genuinely need a helping hand and would otherwise be wants to know when lockdowns will end. The only thing successful are forgotten.” he has been consistent in is his ability to use hindsight. People live to what they earn. Thousands of my This from the right hon. and learned Gentleman who constituents face massive cuts in their income without stood at last December’s general election on a specific proper support. I remind the Minister that the package manifesto commitment to impose the biggest tax hikes of support that the city region asked for was £709 million. on British businesses in living memory. 1099 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1100 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support I want us to be backing businesses in West Bromwich delivery drivers, tradesmen and others all deserve support, East and across the country—the wealth creators who and their loss of business and income is through no drive our local economies and deliver jobs and prosperity fault of their own. However, if the Government force for people. The covid crisis has threatened all that, but West Yorkshire into tier 3, we need to know now and be I know that we will bounce back when we level-up prepared. There can be no delay, and Ministers must communities such as mine, which has been let down by agree to financial support packages in time. Failing to the Labour party. While we do not want people to be do so will leave businesses in limbo and those in low-paid relying on the welfare state—we want people in jobs employment, working fewer hours, or not working, deeply providing for their families—it is precisely because of worried about how they will get by this winter. the generous nature of the increased UC threshold that Based on our population and the financial packages people have been protected during the pandemic. already secured by Liverpool, South Yorkshire and I pay tribute to West Bromwich jobcentre, which has Lancashire, West Yorkshire will need, as a starting done a great job in making sure that all those in West point, £75 million for a population of 2.5 million people Bromwich East who needed to access UC have been if we are placed under tier 3 restrictions. Anything less able to do so. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for would be an insult to people living in the north. In Work and Pensions, who has done a fantastic job in conclusion, I and other Labour Members will never securing that. I have been saying throughout the pandemic stop fighting for our constituents and their jobs, businesses that this is the time to pull together and play our part in and communities. The Government need to step up and supporting our neighbours. I am proud that the Chancellor give regions in tiers 2 and 3 the assistance that we has so far stepped up to the challenge, and I have every desperately need. faith he will continue to do so. 2.47 pm 2.51 pm Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for West Bromwich East Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): (Nicola Richards), although she may have been better The past few weeks have been utterly exhausting, not spending her time talking about the debate and not historical just for those of us who represent Greater Manchester facts that have no bearing. and local authority leaders but, more importantly, for While much of this debate has focused on tier 3 the people we represent. Areas such as my constituency restrictions in the light of the Government’s shambolic have lived with restrictions for months, and there is a handling of the deal with the Mayor of Greater Manchester, real sense of never having properly left the lockdown worryingly little is being said by the Government about that we all endured at the start of the year. That is why support for those regions living under tier 2 restrictions, today I can only express my absolute dismay at how as Bradford and West Yorkshire currently are. Under things have gone over the past 48 hours. those restrictions, our businesses may not have been None of us—I do mean none—wanted to go into told to close, but let me be clear that they still face tier 3. The Minister will have heard from all 27 Greater significant downturns in trading, and our hospitality Manchester MPs at one point or another, and even the sector in particular is being savaged by those rules that press noted our outbreak of unity. However, as the tell us only one household can meet up. Many people weeks dragged on and brief and counter-brief ping-ponged are still on furlough in tier 2 areas, as their jobs are not their way across social media and the front pages, the expected to properly return until the country opens back likelihood of getting something that works for Greater up again. They face the prospect of having to survive Manchester became more and more remote. I need only the winter on a fraction of their normal wages. look at my Twitter feed today to see that Andy Burnham, Despite the jobs and incomes that are at risk, the consummate performer that he is, is already rewriting Government are doing nothing for tier 2 regions. Indeed, the past few weeks, aided by the breathless adulation when I asked the Prime Minister just last week whether of the commentariat. The important message behind he would guarantee that local authorities will receive the all this, however, is that 2.8 million people are now in support they need to help local businesses and protect desperate need of answers. the incomes of already low-paid workers, he ducked the I watched yesterday’s press conference as the Mayor question, telling me about funding we already know about, donned his carefully confected outrage and gave an with nothing concrete about support for the weeks ahead. encore performance of his old refrain, “Nothing to do Between March and September, my constituents saw with me.” We should let local leaders, with the support almost 4,000 more people left unemployed, almost 1,000 of Greater Manchester’s MPs, talk to the Government of whom are aged 16 to 24, and we already have average about how we will be supported over the next 28 days wages that are £100 a week lower than the rest of the and beyond. The people I represent are being asked to country. We cannot lose any more jobs or risk a further face the toughest restrictions of their lives and livelihoods fall in wages, and the Government must act to protect since March, and I am genuinely worried—I am sure jobs and incomes, because the job support scheme will that colleagues are, too—about the future of the people not be enough to discourage employers from letting and businesses in the communities we serve. I have staff go. I therefore urge Ministers to accept calls from asked the Government to ensure that their efforts are the West Yorkshire Combined Authority to give the redoubled and that any settlement with individual boroughs region what it needs to protect jobs, businesses and in Greater Manchester is conducted quickly. Despite communities and to engage constructively with West our myriad political differences, I know that the leader Yorkshire leaders to that end. of Rochdale Borough Council cares deeply for the people There must be a specific focus on the self-employed, of our borough, and I will work with him, the hon. who risk being forgotten, as they very nearly were by Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) and anyone else Ministers at the start of this crisis. Our taxi drivers, who wants to ensure that we have the support we need. 1101 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1102 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Chris Clarkson] I implore Opposition Members to look at the damage that is being done here, to follow the example of Labour We have been very badly let down. Andy Burnham leaders in the Liverpool and Sheffield city regions who inserted himself into this process, and at every step of put the welfare of their constituents first and to see the the way, he promoted himself as the leader of Greater debacle of Andy Burnham’s failure for the learning Manchester and purported to speak for us all. Some of experience it should be. us—I include myself in this—were willing to give him some latitude. Not unlike the First Minister of Scotland, 2.56 pm Mr Burnham has the same sort of reality distortion field, which allows him to shrug off every broken promise Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): Madam Deputy and failed initiative and to emerge squeaky clean. In all Speaker, honesty, who would not want some of that stardust “even if it feels like there is no hope, I am telling you that there is, working for them? and that the overwhelming might of the British state will be I am a pragmatist. I just wanted the support package; placed at your service.” I did not care who got credit for it. Unfortunately, the Those were the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mayor did. That is why, after a demand of £65 million only two weeks ago—words that, when reflected in this was made at the negotiating table and the majority of Government’s actions, show themselves to be vacuous, that sum—92%—was offered, Andy got up and walked hollow and plainly empty. Today, millions of people, away from the table, all because he wanted to brag about sitting at home seeing a failing test and trace system and having got more money than Merseyside or Lancashire. infection rates quickly increasing, are deeply worried. That dogma and demagoguery will cost people dearly. They are worried that, instead of the overwhelming I am supporter of devolution, which on the whole might of the British state being placed at their service as I think has been a positive force in Scotland, Wales and Ministers promised them, they, like the people of Greater Northern Ireland, but I cannot say the same for the Manchester, will instead be on the receiving end of the piecemeal and patchy system that we have in England. chaos and incompetence of the Conservative party. Mayors have ill-defined and varying powers, which That is why, today, we in the Labour party are calling makes them next to impossible to scrutinise or hold to for a one nation deal that sets out clearly for all how account. What this whole shabby episode has told us support for businesses and workers will be applied in should be a salutary lesson for us all. Today’s last minute local lockdowns—a one nation deal that is voted for by debate has all the hallmarks of the same opportunism this Parliament and that is clear for all of us to see. That that has done so much damage over the past few days, is not a big ask and neither is our ask later this afternoon no doubt with a carefully calculated vote at the end, to extend free school meals to the poorest kids in our designed for release on social media afterwards. country. Ministers know that on both those issues their actions today have long-term consequences. I implore Opposition Members to park the opportunism. I know the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston Surely, the Government have learned the lessons from (Kate Green) thinks this is a good crisis that the Labour their own failures? The Conservatives’ response to the party should exploit, and I know she speaks for a lot of last recession, to cut investment and to cut public her Front Bench colleagues when she says that. We just services, not only made our economic recovery longer need to see it in the support-U-turn-oppose approach and slower, but undermined the resilience of our nation that has characterised their hindsight-heavy behaviour. to respond to the crisis we now face.Surely,the Government [Interruption.] Excuse me, did the hon. Member for listen to the likes of the World Bank and look to other Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) just call me scum? countries around the world for support, where there is a clear call to invest now to protect our country, our people and our way of life for the future? And, surely, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. the Government must understand that they are obliged We will not have remarks like that from the Front Bench: to engage with and listen to regional mayors—regional not under any circumstances, no matter how heartfelt mayors that they created—as the voice of their communities, they might be—not at all. when they are being told that people’s livelihoods and the future of their regional economies are on the line? Angela Rayner: On a point of order, Madam Deputy The Government’s handling of the pandemic is clearly Speaker. I ask your guidance on the hon. Member out of control, and they need to get a grip soon. The for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) saying pragmatic suggestions put forward today by the Labour things in his speech about Labour Front Benchers that party provide a way forward. We know that businesses, are inaccurate. I ask him to withdraw them. from advanced manufacturing and food production to the vital everyday businesses on our high streets, are at Madam Deputy Speaker: It is not for the Chair to an increasing loss: despondent at the chaos of the decide what is accurate or inaccurate. I cannot make Government’s handling of local lockdowns, frustrated such a judgment, but of course I will ask the hon. by the Government’s recklessness in their handling of Gentleman to be reasonable in what he says and to be Brexit, and now deeply concerned about the future careful of his remarks. I am sure that if he feels he has direction of our country, when, because of the chaos said anything that is offensive to the hon. Lady, he will and the incompetence, vitally important decisions keep undoubtedly withdraw and apologise immediately. going unmade. Lastly,I saywith respect to colleagues on the Government Chris Clarkson: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Benches that events such as these are the events that Deputy Speaker. I should clarify that I asked the hon. people remember. People throughout the country will Lady whether she called me that. That is what I heard. be asking themselves. “Are the Government, is my 1103 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1104 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support Member of Parliament, on my side—yes or no?” I hope Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): After that Members will keep that question in their minds the next speaker, the time limit will be reduced to three when they vote this evening. minutes.

3 pm 3.4 pm (Hyndburn) (Con): The attitude that I Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): As I have have just seen in this Chamber is what turned many of already said, I welcome the extra money for track and my residents against the Labour party. It is unacceptable. trace; that should have happened a long time ago. Areas such as Hyndburn and Haslingden have faced Directors of public health are the professionals—not more restrictions than many other parts of the country. Serco—and if we had given them the responsibility a Since the beginning of this pandemic, I have been on long time ago, virus infection levels would not be as regular calls with members of the Government, local high as they are today. leaders, local public health officials and the chief medical Let us be clear: there have not been local negotiations; officer. All have had serious concerns about the rise in there have been discussions with local leaders about covid cases, particularly in recent weeks. We have worked how much the Government are going to give them from proactively with the Government to come to an early a standard package, which is the same in every area. agreement on the financial package of support, which The Government have not denied that that is what has will be a lifeline for businesses and people, while doing happened; it is the reality. If the standard package was everything to stop the rise in transmissions, stop our sufficient to provide the help that businesses and local hospitals being overwhelmed and not leave businesses people need, I would welcome it wholeheartedly, but it in limbo. is not. Lancashire came to an agreement and has received an Many businesses that are partly affected—such as the additional £42 million since entering the very high alert breweries mentioned by the hon. Member for Thirsk level, taking the total to £157 million, including £12 million and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and the coach companies from the contained outbreak management fund, at a mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Halton rate of £8 per head, and £30 million in additional business (Derek Twigg)—are not going to get help at all. They support. I will not allow the narrative to become that are going to struggle and they may have to close. If they Lancashire leaders—across party lines—do not care about close but are not forced to close by Government diktat, their residents as much as the Mayor of Greater Manchester. then of course help would not be forthcoming. People I am sorry but that is absolutely not the case. I know how who are made unemployed will not get the same help hard we have all worked for our businesses and residents. that they did under the furlough scheme. How can they I understand that the Mayor of Greater Manchester manage? It is a simple question, and the answer, of received 92% of what he was asking for in the negotiations course, is that they cannot manage. and walked away from the deal on the basis of around We know that the number of people going into £5 million. Given all the support that they have received isolation who should be isolating is not nearly sufficient, already, Manchester’s councils could very easily have and the reason is that many families simply cannot solved the problem and used their reserves if it was afford two weeks without any income. For heaven’s really about supporting businesses. Reserves are there sake, extend the scheme beyond the £500 for the poorest for a rainy day and if this is not a rainy day, I do not families to those who are on average or below average know what is. Even authorities such as Hyndburn Borough incomes to encourage them to isolate when necessary, Council could have pulled out £5 million if it was to knowing that they do not have to make a choice between support businesses. That is a small local authority, but it putting food on their family’s table and paying their would have done that to protect our local hospitals. rent, and going into isolation. No family should have to This has always been about saving lives and protecting make that choice. the NHS. Lancashire put its residents and the NHS Let me turn to the travel restrictions. What we have first, with staff on the wards, and made sure that there been told this morning about going into tier 3 is that my was support for businesses. Given that my local hospital constituents cannot go on holiday in the United Kingdom. has now stood up five covid wards for patients and the But they can go on holiday abroad to any country that staff are reporting that they are exhausted, if needed I will have them. What does that say about helping the would use my reserves, take the offer on the table and UK tourism industry? It is exactly the opposite of what then continue the negotiations. People seem to forget about Government were saying to people only a few weeks the Government’s announcement of the extra £1 billion ago: “Go on holiday in the UK, not abroad.” Can the for local authorities, which will be un-ring-fenced funding Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. so that local authorities can decide where they use the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse support. That approach is welcomed by my local councils Norman) confirm whether that is the case? The Health and it is important to remember that. Minister this morning confirmed that it was. I am sorry, but doctors and nurses would never forgive Can the Minister also explain what will happen to a us for standing back and leaving it for a week given that constituent of mine who emailed me? They said, “I am the virus spreads rapidly. The offer made was fair and already on holiday in the UK. Do I have to come back, was acceptable to Liverpool and Lancashire. These are because I am not supposed to stay in another part of hard decisions, but at the end of the day Manchester’s the United Kingdom once the tier 3 restrictions come lives are not worth a penny more than Lancashire’s in?” Nobody could give me any guidance this morning. lives, which is what the Mayor of Greater Manchester is This plan is half-baked and half thought-through. Other currently saying. We do not agree in Lancashire and we constituents of mine can walk to the pub in north-east will stand up for the people of Lancashire in this Chamber. Derbyshire, which will be in tier 2. The pubs will be We do not agree with what is going on. open there and my constituents can go for a drink in 1105 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1106 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Mr Clive Betts] The Treasury must know me as the death-by-a-thousand- cuts MP, given the amount of times I have lobbied them. They cannot go for a drink in my constituency, them. Only on Monday we sent the latest request about without a substantial meal. The Government are giving the support that we need in . This is a advice, but they are not actually enforcing it. What is regular occurrence and it will continue. I get it, however, going to happen in such cases? that not all these requests are going to come back with a The most stupid thing of all—I know that the Minister cheque and that the Treasury will have to make sure will not have an answer to this because nobody could that we have a sustainable economic future as a country give me an answer on the Zoom call this morning; they that is not a bottomless pit. tried to, but it was a piece of nonsense—is that in my We do not know for how long we will be fighting this constituency during the last lockdown, people got great virus. We are in tier 2. With the rate rising, we could end enjoyment from walking in the Moss valley, where the up in tier 3 soon, having these same discussions. We do footpaths run between Sheffield and Derbyshire. When not know what measures we have to put in place as we people walk on those footpaths, they walk between a move forward. We do not know how long we have got tier 3 area and a tier 2 area, but the Government advice this for. I do not believe that a one-size-fits-all policy is says that they are not supposed to leave a tier 3 area. I right, and I support the generous economic measures asked this morning whether people should stop at the that the Chancellor has provided during these difficult boundary on those footpaths, and then turn around times. To level up, we need to have a sustainable economy and come back. It is an unmarked boundary, so people that will see the children of Whitmore Reans and the would have to look at an Ordnance Survey map to find rest of Wolverhampton growing up in a place that they its location. I was told that that is the Government will also love. guidance now—that is, if someone is walking on a rural footpath, with no chance of giving covid to anyone, 3.11 pm they should stop at that imaginary boundary, turn around and come back. I am sorry, but it is that sort of Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The stupid, simplistic advice that brings the whole system sums requested by Greater Manchester yesterday were into disrepute. a speck compared with the millions given to Serco, G4S, Finally, will the Government please tell people the KPMG, Deloitte and other private firms in this pandemic. measures by which tier 3 will end? No one has told They were a tiny speck compared with the £745 billion us yet. of quantitative easing that was announced in June, supposedly to support our economy. 3.8 pm In Greater Manchester alone, 408,000 people have accessed furlough since its inception, unemployment Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): doubled between March and May, and we saw an As a country, we are in a situation that we do not want increase in universal credit claimants of 76% between to be in, and the decisions that we make in this House March and September. Some 3 million nationally have will determine not only how we come out of covid-19, been excluded from any support so far, from small but what our country is going to look like for generations businesses to freelancers to new starters. Tier 3 brings a to come. It is on that note that I want to talk about one very dark winter to them. It brings a dark winter to of the most deprived areas in my constituency, Whitmore those forced to close without adequate Government Reans. support, and for those not ordered to close the Chancellor’s I love Whitmore Reans and the people there love it scheme is not enough to support them in the face of the too. It has a diverse community and I always enjoy wider economic impact. Indeed, businesses in my spending time there. My family and I have always been constituency were already having to lay off staff, and welcome and we have received the greatest of welcomes that was under tier 2, so at the very least, the Government from the imam and shafiq at Bilal mosque. I enjoy many must agree to support the motion set out today. Not different culinary delights in the area, such as Kurdish only that: they must also offer a package of support for cuisine, Turkish kebabs or the great British fish and the 3 million excluded from support so far. chips—although I do have to run a few extra miles the The Government ask my constituents to give up their next day. civil liberties and livelihoods, but they refuse to stand People who live in Whitmore Reans have one of the beside them with the support they need, all for a plan lowest life expectancy rates in the region and live in one that even the Government scientists do not believe will of the most deprived areas. The area has the highest work. To most, this does not appear to be an exercise in proportion of children in families receiving low-income infection control. It appears to be an exercise in keeping benefit anywhere in the city. Whitmore Reans has many the north and other tier 3 areas away from the rest of multigenerational households which, despite working the country to engage in our own version of “The hard, just have enough to get by. There is no secondary Hunger Games”, where only the fittest and wealthiest school in the area and no local walk-in medical centres. will survive. Fly-tipping is rife and crime rates are high. But people love Whitmore Reans and they are proud of it. They have Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): Will the a great sense of community spirit and are always proud hon. Member give way? of the multiculturalism and diversity in this area. It is clear that Whitmore Reans, as well as other Rebecca Long Bailey: No, I will not. places in Wolverhampton, have been left behind for I say to the Minister: is it not the truth that in Greater decades. I want to see that change and I will not sit back Manchester we have been in tier 2 for months, but we and ignore the problem. I have pushed for investment in have seen an increase, not a decrease, in the infection Wolverhampton almost every week since I became an MP. rate? Is it not the truth that the Government’s own chief 1107 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1108 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support medical officer said that he was “not confident”—neither As local leaders elsewhere have shown, constructive was anyone else, for that matter—that tier 3 would talks can yield results for their areas, supporting the actually work? And is it not the truth that the Government local economy and providing surge funding for local continue to ignore many of its own SAGE scientists track and trace. While I continue to make representations who have advised that an immediate, short, national to my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that more circuit breaker is the only way truly to bring infection can be done for hospitality and events venues in places rates down? such as Barrow, I firmly believe that these talks should Abraham Lincoln once said: take place in a spirit of co-operation rather than opposition. “I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can We have an opportunity to restore trust and regain the be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is momentum behind this collective effort, but as the to bring them the real facts”. pandemic has evolved, so has our economic response to The fact is that Government negotiations yesterday it. We must remember that our words and actions were little more than an attempt to make local authorities resonate far beyond this place, and if we are to retain complicit in the Government’s mismanagement of this that bond of trust with the public, we must find common crisis. The people deserve better. They deserve support, ground once again. and they deserve the truth. 3.17 pm 3.14 pm Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I am sure I (Barrow and Furness) (Con): Coronavirus am not the only person in the House who is suffering has presented a huge national challenge rarely seen at from an overwhelming and frustrating sense of déjà vu. this scale outside a time of war. In tackling it, we have Often in this crisis, I feel like a parent dealing with a been forced to make accommodations that sit petulant teenager—it does not matter how often we say uncomfortably with us all. Those accommodations and it, because even though they know in their heart of compromises form part of a delicate compact that we hearts that their parents are right, they do not want to have with the British people: that they surrender some admit it. Like that parent of a petulant teenager, the of their civil liberties and freedoms, and in return, we nagging from Opposition Members is because we care. keep them safe. It is a simple transaction, and it is a We care about the outcome, and we care about people pure one. That bond of trust is delicate, though, and who are suffering across this country. once that trust is broken, it is hard to find again. I fear that we stand on the precipice, with that bond at risk of We care about businesses such as the long-established permanent damage or even fracture. recruitment firm in my constituency that came to me The first national lockdown was a response to an because it did not qualify for support, or the company I escalating pandemic of which we knew little, except that spoke to this morning that was successful until March if it went unchecked, it would be deadly in more ways and now has to make people redundant—something than one—to lives, to the capacity of the NHS to extend that would have been unthinkable a year ago. This evening, its care, and to our economy and our ability to prevent I will be talking to constituents about how we can save people from falling into poverty. It is right to recognise Murrayfield ice rink, one of not only Edinburgh’s but that as the nature of the pandemic has changed, so Scotland’s most loved and used facilities. These might should our response. The virus is spreading at different all be statistics to the Government; I hope they are not. rates through our countries and communities, so a But behind every single one of these cases are people— regional and local approach is needed in terms of both employees who are suffering and many self-employed restrictions and an economic response. Understandably, people who have had no income for months. the public have coronavirus fatigue. The tone of my Minister, this Government have to admit it, and mailbag has changed. People were once willing to put admit it soon: what we sawyesterday in Greater Manchester their faith and effort into the national sacrifice and, as is not an isolated case. People up and down this country the weather turns, a tone of reticence is setting in. feel abandoned and feel that the Government are not We need to turn the tide on that. doing enough for them. They want to know why we are The Government’s response to this crisis has been letting them down. They have contributed to the economy rooted in fairness. Over £200 billion has been made for years, and now they need something back—where is available in one of the most comprehensive economic it? They face unprecedented hardship. That will only responses in the world, protecting jobs, incomes and continue, and for some it will get worse. businesses through this pandemic. That has been provided It is an accepted fact in this country, repeated by on the principle that, just as the virus does not discriminate, various Conservative Governments over the years, that nor should our resolve or response to it. small businesses, entrepreneurs and innovators are the But as we move to a local approach, I fear that our backbone of the British economy. Minister, that back is core principle of fairness is at risk. Recent events risk breaking, and it needs this Government’s help. We need injecting politics and division into the one part of our them to bring back the original job retention scheme lives where we need it least right now. That not only after the end of this month and to keep it going until threatens the compact we have with the British people June next year; to extend the business rates holiday to but delays crucial action to protect the public. It has the end of 2021 to protect the retail, hospitality, leisure created an outpouring of anger and envy. Politics has its and childcare sectors; and to bring in those excluded place, and I have no right at all to pontificate about an groups who have nothing. elected representative standing up for their community, Einstein said that to do the same thing repeatedly and but these discussions should take place with an eye to expect a different result is madness. Well, Minister, I am the impact they have on the national and local resolve prepared to indulge in that madness in the hope, which to work as one to bear down on this virus. It is for both I hope is not a vain one, that the Government will sides—Government and local leaders—to do that. eventually listen to the many voices in this country 1109 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1110 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Christine Jardine] 3.24 pm Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): The saying that we need to keep furlough—full furlough, Government are fooling nobody. They always try to the job retention scheme. We need to support more blame someone else when they walk away from a people. We need our economy to survive this, because negotiation, not taking any responsibility for their failure. without it we are all in deep, deep trouble. Greater Manchester’s leaders produced a carefully Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. costed plan to deliver what our region needs to support I did not want to interrupt the hon. Lady’s rhetoric, but our businesses and our people, and that was £90 million. three times during her speech she addressed the Minister. When the Government refused, our ask was reduced to Yes, I see she gets the point. I make the point so that £75 million and then further to £65 million, before the Members who are new to the House will not think she is Government walked away from the negotiation. It is correct, and I let her do it three times. The hon. Lady shameful for Tory MPs from Greater Manchester to clearly knows, and I hope others will take note, that she blame our Mayor and our local leaders for trying to should address the Chair. protect our economy and our residents. Our local councils cannot do this on their own. They are already on their 3.21 pm knees because of the extra costs and the drop in revenues as a result of this crisis. Antony Higginbotham () (Con): Lancashire We need help, but the rationale for the Government’s has been hit incredibly hard by covid-19, and Burnley offer of help has been hard to fathom. There is no particularly so. Our case rate is among the highest in consultation, and no transparency on how it has been Lancashire and our economy is hurting, but we are also arrived at. As far as we can see, it appears to involve a a hardy bunch. We have a “just get on with it” attitude, per capita figure for business support. How can that and that means we find industrial solutions for the make sense when business density and business needs future, we back our local businesses and we will come are different for different areas? So I ask the Minister: through this stronger than ever. In that vein, I thank local why can we not have a more sophisticated formula? leaders from the county council and district councils for That is perfectly possible, and it could take into account all their work to reach an agreement with the Government previous needs. Just as an example, when the small that sees our businesses and our people protected. business grant scheme was opened, there were 22,000 Today’s debate has been framed as though support is applications in the Liverpool city region, 31,000 applications non-existent, but at every stage of this pandemic the in Lancashire and 47,000 applications in Greater Government have provided whatever support has been Manchester. The needs are different in different regions. necessary. That is not because of those playing party A formula could also take into account the size of politics; it is because of hon. and right hon. Members our economy and the extent to which it supports the on both sides of the House who have fought for their wider region, as Greater Manchester does. We could constituents, working with the Chancellor and the whole take into account the number of low-paid workers in a Government. region, to come up with a formula and a figure that I understand why the Opposition are trying to frame truly takes need into account. If support is per capita this debate as though they are standing up for left-behind based on population, what happens when a rural area communities, but let me remind them that it is they who with residential areas but little business or industry goes left them behind. Year after year, decade after decade, into tier 3? What would happen if an area such as they ignored the north of England, both in government Bournemouth and Poole, with a high retired population, and in opposition. That is why I sit here, because I went into tier 3 ? Would it get the same business support? promised never again to allow Burnley and Padiham, That would make no sense, and it would be the opposite Worsthorne and or Hapton and Dunnockshaw of levelling up. to languish as they allowed. I promised to level up, and that is exactly what I remain focused on. Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend Yes, that includes managing the covid-19 outbreak. I give way? will never stop lobbying the Government, publicly and privately,to ensure that they understand my local economy Jeff Smith: I will take a brief intervention, but I will and understand the support we need, particularly when try not to take the extra time, Madam Deputy Speaker. their interventions hurt us. However, I remain convinced, just as I did at the start of this crisis, that we are doing Sam Tarry: Does my hon. Friend agree that this is the right thing. not about a north-south or a Manchester-London divide? Last night, Londoners were told they must accept fare Hundreds of millions of pounds have gone into rises way above inflation, a forced council tax hike and, Lancashire to support our businesses and our people. on top of that, even more punitive measures including In the past week alone, £42 million has gone into the taking control of the Authority out of county to support businesses and people. That will the hands of the Mayor of London. Surely this is about support the landlord and landlady of the village pub crushing devolution. Does my hon. Friend also agree and the entrepreneur who started their new business that the Mayor of London should not be punished for only a matter of weeks ago. There is another £12 million standing shoulder to shoulder with our friends in the to support the public health response. north? I say to all the businesses in Burnley that I am here to lobby for you, and I say to the Government that the Jeff Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is support we have in place is welcome and essential, but I about individuals standing up for their area. The Mayor will never stop lobbying on behalf of the businesses that of London is doing so, and the Mayor of Greater create the jobs on which local residents in Burnley rely. Manchester is doing so as well. 1111 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1112 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support We keep being told that the Government say the I for one in South Yorkshire will never stand by and £60 million is still on the table for Greater Manchester, put my residents’ lives and health at risk for anything. but now it seems to be on the table only for individual Regardless of parties or anything else, lives must come councils unless our Mayor will simply accept the first. I am pleased that so many people across the House Government’s take-it-or-leave-it offer. It is clear from have done that; it is a shame that it is not the case in the Secretary of State’s answers in the Chamber last Manchester. night that the Government now want to deal only with individual councils. Is it not true that the Government’s 3.30 pm policy towards Greater Manchester is no longer “We’re Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): all in this together” but divide and rule? That is not the I have to say, I find the approach that the hon. Member way a responsible Government should be behaving in a for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) has taken—and, time of crisis. indeed, that the whole Government are taking to the virus—and the remarks that he has just made so profoundly 3.27 pm depressing. In case he or anybody else has not got the Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): Obviously, memo, the virus has already started to run amok in our I rise today with the news that South Yorkshire, of country. The Government have already lost control of which Rother Valley is a key part, has now entered into this virus. At a time when we all need to pull together, in tier 3. This is not a decision that any of us wants and it the context of a global emergency, the Government are is not something that any of us thought was going to pursuing rhetoric and a narrative that is all about happen, but in order to save lives, this is what we have dividing communities from one another and sowing had to do. Saving lives is what this debate is all about, division, as if our country needs any more division after and we should not get away from that fact. I am grateful the last few years—we have already had quite enough for the cross-party work that we have done across South of that. Why pit mayor against mayor? Why pit region Yorkshire, and I want to thank especially my fellow against region? Rotherham area MPs, the hon. Member for Rotherham The virus does not care for geographical boundaries (Sarah Champion) and the right hon. Member for or which local or national official is ultimately responsible Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), and the council for any of our policies. The virus is running wild through leader, Chris Reed, for working together with the Mayor our country. We all need to pull together, and the to provide cross-party support. That is how we got Government therefore need to behave as the Government £41 million extra invested in our area to protect jobs of a United Kingdom and pursue a national strategy and to protect lives. Throughout our negotiations, one that is comprehensible and understandable to the vast thing we have never done is put the lives of our residents majority of us—one that is rational and does not mean at risk, because we understand that getting the virus careering from one type of measure to another, doing under control is what is important. 180° turns from one day to the next. We need some That is not what has been going on in Manchester, rationalityandaclearnationalstrategyfromtheGovernment. which is grandstanding. I honestly think that is a disgrace. The virus has shown the absolute mess of English The Mayor of Manchester is playing fast and loose with devolution under this Government, because it is not people’s lives when it comes to this virus. With every true devolution; it is just devolution of blame and day, and every minute, that goes past without Manchester responsibility for decisions that local people are not going into a proper lockdown, more people will get involved in. The Government are going to have to infected and more people may ultimately suffer the change course, because everything that we know about worst fate ever. It is a disgrace that Manchester is being strategies that work to get the virus under control shows sold out by its so-called political leadership, which is that we need local expertise and locally led decision not taking the hard decision to try to save lives. making. This Government are trying to save lives. If Lancashire We also need a package of support that can protect can work together to save lives, if Liverpool can work jobs and businesses. Nothing that the Government have together to save lives and if South Yorkshire can done since the tiers were introduced, particularly in work together to save lives, why cannot Manchester areas such as mine, which is under tier 2 restrictions, work together? Why are we doing this? Why do we see will go far enough to protect jobs, livelihoods and in the news that the Mayor of Manchester claims that businesses, which will be crucial to our economic recovery he was only told about the deal halfway through a phone when we are through the worst of the crisis. The cost of interview, when in fact he was told before? That is just borrowing is low at this point. I say to all those who grandstanding. It is playing politics with people’s lives behave as though this one change in the measures to and it is a disgrace that should shame everyone. Weshould support businesses and jobs will somehow destroy our not be playing politics with people’s lives. economy: we are in unprecedented times. The cost of We should be helping businesses. Basically, businesses borrowing is low, and we should do what other nations need support. Like all Members, I have great concerns are doing. We should provide as much support as about the businesses in my constituency, whether it is necessary to save as many jobs and businesses as possible, the pubs, the restaurants or the coach services. There so that there is a viable economy for us to regrow once are concerns, but ultimately we must work together to we are back out of this crisis. save lives.Nobody benefits from the Mayor of Manchester Finally, I urge the Minister to deal with the fact that playing politics with people’s lives, and that is what it is. areas in tier 2, such as Birmingham, are in the worst of By not implementing procedures to save lives, the virus all worlds, because their business base has been decimated willrunamok,andnothing—nothing;nofauxnegotiations— by public health measures, but businesses are not forced can obscure the fact that lives are being put at risk by a to close, so they do not get any support. It is nonsensical Mayor of Manchester who clearly wants to make a that we should end up wishing we were in tier 3 just to political point rather than look after his people. get some support. The Government must change course. 1113 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1114 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Shabana Mahmood] Liverpool and is extremely proud of that fact. It absolutely breaks my heart to speak to my former colleagues about 3.33 pm the dire situation they now find themselves in. Cab Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): drivers, like the musicians, artists, DJs, bar workers and Unfortunately, during today’s debate and over the last kitchen staff, are the beating heart of my city, and all couple of weeks, we have seen Opposition Members should be treated as the hugely important jobs they are trying to have it both ways. This is a moment of national now and will be in future. They are viable. They must be crisis, yet we have seen no attempt at being constructive supported to rebuild our communities once we get and no positive ideas at all. This Government have through this. If not, they are thrown under the proverbial delivered a package of £200 billion for this country, bus. It feels like a Tory Government once more, going which must be seen in an international context, when back to the ’80s—washing their hands of the working we look at some of the particular measures that the class when we need that support now more than ever. Government have introduced to protect jobs and livelihoods I genuinely fear that the Chancellor, widely regarded across the country. We have seen £40 billion for furlough as one of the richest men in Parliament, has absolutely and 9.6 million jobs protected, over 11,000 of which no idea of just what he is asking of people and just what were in my Birmingham, Northfield constituency. We he is putting our communities through. Can he really have seen the new job support scheme and £9 billion of appreciate what it means to live off £5.76 an hour? If he extra money for welfare. We have seen VAT cuts for had walked in their shoes, maybe the strategy he is hospitality and grants and loans for businesses across following would be different. In fact, I invite him to the country, which have enabled jobs and businesses to come to Liverpool—come to the taxi ranks and speak succeed, looking after people. to the scouse cabbies—and maybe the strategy will What have we got from the Opposition? They are change, because he will be given some pointers on what complaining about the impact of these restrictions on is required to save these industries from decimation. businesses, but what would they do instead? They would The virus was nobody’s fault, so our communities close them all, causing untold misery to many millions should not be punished by this Government. We need of people across this country in terms of jobs. Would it to show all the communities throughout our regions work? They do not know. They would have circuit that they are valued. The Chancellor has it in his power breaker after circuit breaker, or fire break after fire to provide the economic support that tier 3 areas like break—call it what you like; it is a lockdown—and have Liverpool and others mentioned today need. I urge him them multiple times. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh to implement the measures in the motion, increase the West (Christine Jardine) pointed out, the very definition job support scheme to at least 80%, and provide fair of madness, as Einstein said, is doing the same thing funding for the regions and communities we all serve. over and over again and expecting a different result. The Opposition ask for more money for local 3.39 pm government. Well, we have seen the consequences of Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): I speak that in my Birmingham, Northfield constituency. For to a lot of people across the four nations of this great years, the council has attempted to put a bus lane down country, and in Derbyshire, too, and their overwhelming Bristol Road South, and it has used covid response view is that this Government are being fair.The Government money in order to put that bus lane there because it did have outlined a clear and fair national criteria for not have the guts to do the consultation in the first supporting people under tier 3 restrictions. That comes place. Instead of talking to people about what response on top of the huge national support that has historically to covid they wanted, it imposed it overnight. That is been offered to local authorities, businesses and individuals why, working with my local councillors, we have collected over the past few months. a petition of over 2,700 names against this ludicrous The Government are protecting 80% of the salaries idea, which was all in the name of protecting the city of those on lower incomes through the job retention against covid. scheme and universal credit contributions, which I know What we have seen throughout this debate is opportunism is more generous than that offered by many countries in and no constructive ideas. There is no perfect response the world. In particular, it is better than that offered in to the virus. This is not about the UK acting on its own France, Germany and Spain. against it; it is about the whole world’sresponse. Everybody The long-term battle here is to defeat and manage the is learning as we go along. I have confidence that this virus and to promote economic recovery. It is only with Government are listening and, most importantly,reacting. prosperity that we can have freedom and rights for everybody. The virus’s transmission must be thwarted, 3.36 pm so I welcome the Government’s focus on track and Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab): My region trace. On money, the Government are fundamentally is now under tier 3 measures, meaning that many of the fair. We are not going back to the times of trade union industries my city relies on are facing devastation for discussions when people can shout and scream to get the second time this year. The Government have suggested what they can out of the Government. This Government that the 67% job support scheme will be topped up to are consistent and fair. 80% by universal credit, but we all know that delays in I was interested to hear the Prime Minister confirm receiving universal credit are one of the primary reasons today that Manchester will be getting £60 million overall for referrals to food banks. It is simply not acceptable to in the same fair way as other regions, so all the shouting expect people to be able to make ends meet with so little and screaming of the petulant Mayor of Manchester, support. Andy Burnham, is frankly ridiculous. The single most I say this speaking from my own personal experience important way the Government can support communities as someone who used to be a hackney cab driver in is to carry on with track and trace. The delivery of more 1115 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1116 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support than 300,000 tests a day facilitates progress in this area Let us not forget landlords and utility companies: to stop transmission rates in the worst-affected areas. they will not be interested in the argument that a worker For all their rhetoric, this achievement would have proved is now getting only two thirds of their current income. impossible under the Opposition, because of their refusal This Government are happy to allocate billions for to support the Government’s national approach on botched schemes, but it is begging bowls for the rest of testing, which is Europe-leading. They have an ideological us. We know that there was £108 million for private fear of private enterprise and would not have been able companies to make PPE they had never made before, to deliver any of this. Those people I speak to across this and £12 billion for track and trace that was a complete great nation of ours are grateful to Boris and to Rishi— shambles, yet £5 million was just a step too far to protect the livelihoods of millions of citizens across Greater Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr ): Order. We do Manchester—so many people paying an unnecessarily not refer to Members of Parliament by their Christian high price for Government chaos. or other names. Tomorrow, the Prime Minister will make a great fanfare of speaking about the northern powerhouse, Miss Dines: I mean the Prime Minister and the when for so many of the people I represent it is more Chancellor of the Exchequer. like the northern poorhouse. It is not just Labour I was also surprised to hear the hon. Member for leaders who are exasperated at the Prime Minister’s Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) say that the track disregard for the people of the north, but former Tory and trace system had collapsed—she clearly reads a Minister Lord O’Neill, writing in the Yorkshire Post different dictionary from me. I was thinking back to today, and he is right. With over 40 leaders across the those times when I was a child and the trade unions north standing alongside Greater Manchester leaders, I thought that they ran the country. Well, similarly, Andy add my voice to their ask of Parliament to enable us to Burnham may run his city, but we need fairer, more have a vote on the motion. moderate tones in discussions as to how to get through this crisis. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The wind-ups In conclusion, this is not too good a crisis to go to will begin sharp at one minute to four. waste. We will work together and receive— 3.45 pm Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. (Warrington South) (Con): Much of the 3.42 pm discussion in the past week has centred around support for packages in Greater Manchester, in Lancashire and Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): I will, if in the wider Merseyside region—three areas that border I may, take a moment to add my condolences to my my constituency. We sit, in Warrington South, at a good friend on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for tipping point, but still in tier 2. Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), and her family at the loss of her aunt. It is a great shame that the political theatrics from the Mayor of Greater Manchester in the past 24 hours have It has been a tumultuous time for communities in the been allowed to dominate the airwaves. This is not a north and in West Yorkshire. We know the sacrifices north-south debate. All the efforts of every Member of that people have made, losing loved ones, jobs, homes the House should be focused on defeating the virus and and futures. As a proud Yorkshire woman, I know that protecting livelihoods, and I agree with my neighbour, we have grit, determination and a sense of community, the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), who said and I know that we will get through this. I make this that now is the time to pull together. request of the Minister: if West Yorkshire is placed under the same restrictions as Greater Manchester and Today’s debate is about economic support packages South Yorkshire, will the Government not abandon my for areas with local restrictions. Given that Warrington community, my people, with the same disregard for the remains an area with tier 2 restrictions, I want to impact that it will have on the poorest as they have in highlight some of the challenges that businesses in my Greater Manchester? They cannot expect a family living constituency are telling me about, while recognising on £300 a week to now be living on £200 a week and not some of the fantastic steps that are already being taken go into poverty.They cannot expect those on the minimum by the Government. wage now to get two thirds of those wages and not to be The approach that, wherever you live, be it in the living in poverty. We know that hundreds of thousands north-west or the south-east, you get the same support, of people across this community and across the country is absolutely the right one nation approach to take. In do not even have £100 of savings. this country we have seen the most comprehensive Added to that is the sheer arrogance of the Government economic response in the world, backed by over £200 billion in the way that they have dealt with the leadership of to protect jobs, incomes and businesses throughout and Greater Manchester,excluding MPs from briefings, trying beyond the pandemic. As the pandemic evolves, so too to set one elected Mayor against another, leaving the must our policies, and I welcome steps to support people of Greater Manchester anxious and concerned businesses forced to close due to national or local about how they will pay their bills. They have pitted one restrictions, whereby they will now receive £3,000 a month. community against another,young against old, vulnerable We are also providing a £500 payment to support those against healthy, rich against poor, and city against town. on low incomes who have been asked to self-isolate. I wish to put it on the record that I stand shoulder to If I may, I want to give some feedback to the Minister shoulder with the Mayor of Greater Manchester and all from hospitality businesses in my constituency in tier 2, that he is doing, working with others to get the support where a ban on mixing socially with friends in a pub is of his community so that they have enough to live on. combined with a 10 pm closing time. The impact has 1117 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1118 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Andy Carter] This lockdown is falling between two different Government schemes. The First Minister asked the been far greater than many may have anticipated. Daniel Treasury to bring forward the job support scheme and Benson from the Hop Co bar in Warrington wrote to to work with the Welsh Government—they even offered me, having spent thousands on creating a covid-safe financial support to make sure that businesses in Wales environment. He now cannot operate sustainably due to would be helped. The Prime Minister constantly talks the new restrictions. I have also heard from Kerry about putting his arm around the nation. Well, now is Shadwell, landlady at the Red Lion in Stockton , his opportunity to do that: embrace the First Minister’s a traditional pub in the heart of the community, with a suggestion and make sure that businesses in Wales can rateable value slightly over £51,000. They were not survive this pandemic and this lockdown. eligible for any grants earlier and are now facing more pressures. They have seen their capacity reduce. They had to introduce table service, incurring extra costs. 3.51 pm Understandably, they are now asking how they can continue. Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): Since March, Earlier in the year, I argued for sector-specific support. the UK Government have provided unprecedented support Now is the time for hospitality sectors in particular, in to Wales, including £4.4 billion in financial support to tier 2, to get sector-specific support. I ask the Minister the Welsh Government and the protection of 400,000 to take the matter back to my right hon. Friend the jobs through the furlough scheme. In my constituency Chancellor of the Exchequer. of Clwyd South, many people, businesses and organisations have asked me to thank the Chancellor for providing such widespread and well targeted support. 3.48 pm At the heart of the debate today is the issue of (Swansea East) (Lab): Covid restrictions responsibility for economic support when areas of the in tiers 2 and 3 have put untold pressure on a wide range UK face additional restrictions. Implicit within it is the of businesses, and while some have been provided for, understanding by all parties that lockdown does have many have not. Our hospitality industry has taken a an impact on businesses and jobs, even with the most huge hit, but what about its supply chains? Food and generous package of support. Wewere therefore surprised drink wholesalers have seen a 70% reduction in sales, to learn last weekend via a leaked letter that the Welsh and with no financial support, many are on the brink of Government were intending to lock down all of Wales collapse. But it is not just hospitality venues that they for two and a half weeks from Friday,given that significant serve but our schools, hospitals, prisons and care homes; parts of the country have low infection rates. and some of that is specialist food, which cannot be Many people across Wales feel that the Welsh bought in a supermarket. Government approach should, like the Westminster Just this weekend, I read that a Treasury spokesman Government’s, be targeted at the areas of high infection had said that support for the hospitality sector “and its and that the tier system should also be introduced in wider chain” was available, so I spoke to the supply Wales. The national lockdown in Wales is therefore sector, and they said that they certainly had not had unnecessarily damaging businesses and jobs, as was support. Bidfood, based in my constituency, had seen implicitly agreed by the hon. Member for Swansea East an almost 50% downturn in sales, and consequently had (Carolyn Harris). It is harming businesses in areas of to make redundancies. They tell me that the food supply low infection, which then puts a huge extra burden on industry has not yet been eligible for any Government the provision of economic support from the Government. financial support, despite what the Treasury says. It is difficult to understand how the Welsh Government Wholesalers such as Bidfood and Castell Howell, based have arrived at their decision, but part of the answer lies in Llanelli, are fantastic supporters of community in their reluctance to co-operate with the UK Government campaigns. They have helped me with my summer lunch on covid-19 discussions and the fact that they deliberately club, the Swansea Together coronavirus response and ignored the reality explained to them by the UK the “Everyone Deserves a Christmas” campaign. But Government: that the new package of financial support now they need support to help them to survive. could not be delivered until the beginning of November. Food and drink wholesalers desperately need the It is also due to the fact that they have been very slow to furlough scheme to be extended, prolonged business publish coronavirus infection rates district by district; rates relief and discretionary grants to enable them to such figures were available from Public Health Wales survive the crisis. They do not know how long the only yesterday, well after the lockdown decision had uncertain times will last—we do not know and the Prime been made. The other reason is a lack of scrutiny and Minister and his Government do not know. But what accountability within the , where the national we do know is that these areas facing additional restrictions lockdown was not even debated before it was announced—a need additional support, and they need it now. sharp contrast to this House, where the level of scrutiny Too many times during this pandemic, measures have of ministerial decisions is rightly much higher, as this been put in place too late because of this Government’s debate and many others demonstrate. failure to be decisive. The First Minister in Wales has In conclusion, fair economic support is vital, but it is taken the decision to introduce a fire-break lockdown, also closely related to making the right decisions about and I have no doubt that many businesses across Wales lockdown given that the broad shoulders of the UK will be disappointed to be closing their doors again. But Treasury’s resources are not limitless and that we they will understand that this has to be done. We must need to target financial support, just as we need to ensure that they get the financial support to see them target restrictions on those areas with the highest rates through this time. of infection. 1119 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1120 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support 3.54 pm Andy Street as the Mayor of the west midlands, who Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): It is a huge has already said that he will not accept a public and misfortune that, at the moment the entire world is drawn-out negotiation with the Government. He will not grappling with this pandemic, the United Kingdom put lives at risk. should be stuck with this Government—probably the Our Mayor’s aim is to agree measures alongside other most incompetent Government that there has ever been—at local leaders on a cross-party basis well in advance of a moment when never more has there been a need for a any move to a higher tier, so that we can protect strong and reliable Government. When the whole country businesses and livelihoods without delay. That is real is looking to the Government for leadership, for them leadership in the face of the biggest public health crisis to instead be involved in the dreadful spectacle of we have faced in a generation. When the NHS is at risk, politicising and trying to split up areas such as Greater that is when we are at the moment of greatest danger. Manchester—trying to get people to work against each Those who are not willing to act collectively at the time other, rather than working together—at a moment like of our country’s greatest need put the NHS and people’s this says everything not only about their competence, lives at risk. but about what motivates them. The Government are now claiming that they had a Mr Deputy Speaker: I apologise to the 38 Members formula all along, but that has so transparently been who were not able to be called because of the constraints done after the event to justify what they offered to of time and the large number of Members who wished Greater Manchester. Surely a sensible business support to participate. I call Anneliese Dodds. formula would work on the basis of the number of workers that an area has, not the number of citizens. 3.58 pm The deal that the Greater Manchester Mayor asked for Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): I am would replace 80% of the income of those workers grateful to everyone who has participated in this debate. on low wages put out of work by the Government’s There have been a number of fantastic contributions, incompetence. It is an area, remember, that has been in particularly from Opposition Members. I am sure there tier 2 for months. In Chesterfield, we are just going into would have been many more if we had had time. Running tier 2 and we see the appalling consequences it has for through all the contributions, including those from our hospitality sector,which is getting no support whatever. the Government Benches, are three questions that the All the way through, the Government’s eyes have been Government seem absolutely determined not to answer. on the political win rather than on the best interests of I hope they finally will do so in the next 10 minutes. the people they are here to serve. The first question is about this phantom framework. If the Government had a formula all along, why was It is not Halloween yet, but it feels like we are already Manchester getting only £22 million at 3 o’clock and there with this phantom framework. The Housing, £60 million again by 7 o’clock? Why is Sheffield city Communities and Local Government Secretary said region getting £6 million less in business support than there was a framework for support for jobs and businesses the formula says? Why was the initial offer to Manchester, in tier 3 areas, and he said that the framework offered of £55 million, £3 million less than what the Government £20 per head. If that framework is there, why have the now say that formula is? If there is actually a formula, it Government not published it? Why will they not put it does not add up.They do not even lie well. The Government in front of us? Why will they not write it down anywhere are so inept that they cannot even get their story straight so that we can see it? Why will they not let us vote on it? when they are screwing people over. I know the reason why. They will not do that because The whole charade would not be so bad if the they know it has not always been used—I will come Government had the slightest compunction about wasting back to that point later—but also because they know billions of pounds of public money. They are the that it is iniquitous. There is no reason why only a per Government who conspired to deny a cash-strapped capita formula has been used. For example, we could be council £50 million from Richard Desmond, and who looking at the length of time that areas have been under pay consultants £7,000 a day to screw up track and restrictions. We could be looking at the number of trace, but when it comes to laying people off—because businesses impacted, the number of workers impacted, all the Government’s measures so far have failed—the the extent of deprivation or the extent of low pay, as my people of Manchester are not even worth £20. What a hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington shabby disgrace! (Jeff Smith) set out so ably. Why are the Government so secretive about this phantom framework, and why are Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): To resume her Conservative Members letting them get away with it? seat at 3.59, I call Suzanne Webb. Leicester,for example, was not covered by that phantom framework. It received less than half the business support 3.57 pm that other areas have received. Here is the rub—the rub Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): We are having we all know about, but which Conservative Members this debate due to the drawn-out actions of others. The do not seem willing to stand up to. If that phantom Government’s offer to support businesses in Manchester framework was in place all the time, why on earth have is generous and, importantly,proportionate to the support we had the spectacle of these one-sided negotiations? already given to Liverpool and Lancashire. I am bitterly As my hon. Friends the Members for Chesterfield disappointed that, after long, drawn-out negotiations, (Mr Perkins) and for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) the offer of support was rejected. As the Prime Minister have said, the Government are picking regions off one said yesterday, we have a better chance of defeating the after the other. It has been an iniquitous mess over virus if we work together. Compare that to what is the last couple of weeks, and it is getting messier day happening in the west midlands. I am thankful we have by day. The Chief Secretary said today that Barnett 1121 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1122 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support [Anneliese Dodds] needs to do tomorrow is to get with the programme—the programme of what his Prime Minister has said—because consequentials are going to be used for this phantom the Prime Minister said that he would not rule out a formula. Are they? Again, is that written down anywhere? circuit breaker as he knows that the science supports I cannot see it. He made reference to funding announced one. by the Prime Minister, but we still have no detail on that We all know in our heart of hearts, as we have heard funding for local government, with no indication of time and again from Government Members today, that how it will be allocated and no indication of when it will the system of rolling regional restrictions is hammering arrive. We still know nothing about what has happened our country’s economy but not doing enough to get the to the £1.3 billion underspend on the business grants virus down. The only alternative is a circuit breaker. programme. That could be used right now to support Research shows that failing to implement a circuit businesses that are struggling, but the Government are break to fix test, trace and isolate could cost our economy refusing to do so. The first question—and I would be £110 billion. Tomorrow, the Chancellor must come here really grateful if the Government finally answered this—is: and act now to get a grip on this virus and save lives and why will they not be open about the phantom framework, livelihoods. when will they publish it, when will they let us vote on it and when will they stop this absolute chaos? 4.5 pm The second big question is: why will the Government The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): not be open about the job support scheme extension We have had a lively, passionate and—what should I and the fact that, alongside universal credit, it often will say?—vigorous debate across the House. We have heard not prevent hardship at all? The Mayor of Greater a wide range of arguments and a considerable amount Manchester and other local leaders are absolutely right of passion. It is clear, however, that when we cut through to highlight this. The Government have been all over the air being discharged on either side of the Chamber, the place on this issue. The Prime Minister actually had there is a commonality of values across the House. In to correct himself because he got it wrong. Again, the fact, the House is united on the most fundamental issues Chief Secretary mentioned some examples today, but I that we face, which are the need to combat this terrible think we all noticed that he left some critical bits out of covid-19 virus; the need to protect public health; the those examples, did he not? There is the fact that people need to make every effort to prevent economic harm to have to wait for five weeks before they get that support, our businesses, jobs and people; and the need to protect that they will not get it to the same extent if they have the fabric of our society. We all share those ambitions. saved above £6,000 or, indeed, that it is dependent on their partner’s circumstances as well. My hon. Friends To do that, we need to do achieve a balance, as the the Members for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) and Chancellor discussed last week. In the words of the for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) ably set that out. deputy chief medical officer last night, we are trying to Those exclusions can be fixed to make a reality of what walk “a very fine line” between getting the virus under Government figures have said, rather than just the control in areas where it is surging and incurring minimal rhetoric, but the Government are refusing to do this. damage to the daily lives and livelihoods of people They could switch the initial grant into a loan in universal across the country. It was noticeable that the deputy credit, they could remove the savings threshold and chief medical officer also made it explicit that he did they could push local housing allowance up to median not support a national lockdown, that he backed a local rents. Why will they not? approach and that it would not be appropriate to impose the strictest restrictions across the country. I thought The third question that this Government are running that was an important and telling point from an independent away from is: why do they already seem to accept the adviser. failure of JSS—not the JSS extension, but JSS—even though it has not even started? I thought it was highly For the same reasons, it is clear that no Government, instructive that, when discussion about support for in any normal circumstances, would wish to impose the businesses in tier 2 areas came up during this debate, restrictions that we are discussing today. I can only neither the Chief Secretary nor indeed any Conservative express my thanks and recognition to the people of Members mentioned the JSS. It seems as though the Liverpool, Lancashire, Greater Manchester and South Government have already factored into their plans the Yorkshire for the fortitude that they have demonstrated, failure of that scheme. My hon. Friends the Members are demonstrating and will demonstrate. for Halton (Derek Twigg), for Birmingham, Ladywood The evidence shows that the most successful countries (Shabana Mahmood) and, indeed, for Swansea East in combating covid-19 are those that have adopted (Carolyn Harris) spelled out very clearly the implications localised measures to protect their populations. That is of that failure and that of the new version of the self- why we launched the three covid alert levels for England employment income support scheme for their constituents. based on the prevalence of the virus in those areas. While we have all been sitting in this Chamber, we Although it is vital that we take decisive action to have received the news that the Chancellor is coming control the virus where it is surging, as we did yesterday tomorrow—he is coming tomorrow—to make an economic in Manchester, we must also recognise that covid-19 is statement. I say to him: seize this chance. He should spreading in different ways and at different speeds across seize this chance to fix the JSS so that it actually the country. supports jobs rather than doing so little to stem the tide Covid-19 is a virus that we do not fully understand of unemployment, and seize this chance to support in epidemiological terms, or indeed in medical terms, workers facing hardship under JSS-plus—the JSS extension. but we know enough to say that the epidemiological He should also sort out this support for tier 3 areas and evidence simply does not justify introducing a national end this appalling charade. Finally, in the time I have circuit breaker. The costs of such an approach would be left let me just say that the last thing the Chancellor absolutely huge. 1123 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1124 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support I vigorously support the point made by my hon. Friend Love Manchester though I do, I am afraid there is no the Member for Clwyd South (Simon Baynes), who said reason why it should be treated as a special case and any that there were weaknesses in the Welsh Government’s differently from any other part of the country. Every decision to impose a circuit breaker because it would country faces the potential of being struck down by put tremendous strain on areas where there had been no covid and every part of this country should be supported great upsurge in the virus. That point was also made by in a proper way that is consistent across the piece. When the former Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. the Mayor of Birmingham says, by contrast, that he will Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). not put lives at risk, we have to recognise the sincerity It falls in fact into the category of being unnecessarily and importance of his view. damaging to the economic fabric of our country. Let me pick up a couple of other points that have The idea that the Welsh Government have done that, been made. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles as my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South put it, (Rebecca Long Bailey) spoke of Abraham Lincoln; she without adequate scrutiny, is a sharp contrast to here may also remember that Lincoln said that the gentleman where the Opposition have been vigorous in holding he spoke of compressed the smallest amount of thought the Government to account, and rightly so. Having said into the largest number of words. I am afraid we have that, it is important to say, as my right hon. Friend the seen a bit of that today. Chancellor said last week, that these are not virtual Thehon.MemberforBirmingham,Ladywood(Shabana costs: every day that a national lockdown was in place Mahmood) called for rationality and a truly national would bring very real costs in jobs lost, businesses strategy; that is exactly what we are offering. That is closed and children’s education harmed. The costs can what the Government are giving to her. be measured and weighed in permanent damage to the My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South economy, which in turn undermines our ability to fund (Andy Carter) was absolutely right to highlight the our public services. danger of theatrics and the importance of our not Let me briefly remind the House of what we are making this a north-south issue. It is absolutely not doing to support, in a broad, deep and consistent way, that. This is an issue in respect of which we are all areas that face higher restrictions.Weare helping businesses desperately concerned to do the same thing: to protect with fixed costs such as rents and bills through a new people’s livelihoods, to protect their health and to protect business grant scheme. Weare supporting local authorities the fabric of our economy and our society. What is the in tier 2 or 3 with significant new funding. We have Labour alternative? A national firebreak? A circuit introduced a national funding formula of £1 per head break? We should do everything that we possibly can to in tier 1 areas with a high incidence, going up to £3 and avoid that because of the unfairness of striking down £8. Of course, that is just a covid-outbreak-combat measure areas that do not have high virus levels and suppressing —it is dedicated to a small part of a much wider pattern their businesses. We all recognise the economic costs of programmes of support totalling, as the House will associated with that. know, more than £200 billion in total. To give the I do not think it is consistent with the Labour party’s House a sense of scale, that means that areas in high or commitment to avoid party politics to have descriptions very high alert are receiving, or will receive, up to half a from the Opposition Benches of, in one phrase, “screwing billion pounds just focused on public health activities to people over” heard in this Chamber, or, indeed, to hear do with combating the virus, such as local enforcement references to a Member of this Chamber as scum from and contact tracing. That comes on top of the £6 billion the Labour Front Bench. that we have already provided to local authorities since Questionput(StandingOrderNo.31(2)),Thattheoriginal the start of the crisis. words stand part of the Question. The third element is extra support for local authorities in tier 3— The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 340. Division No. 153] [4.15 pm Mr Betts: Will the Minister give way? AYES Jesse Norman: I would but I have been given so little Abbott, rh Ms Diane Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben time and have so much material to get through. I hope Abrahams, Debbie Brennan, Kevin the hon. Gentleman does not mind if I press on. Ali, Rushanara Brock, Deidre As the House will know, we have provided one-off Ali, Tahir Brown, Alan grants to Lancashire and Liverpool and will continue to Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brown, Ms Lyn do so for other authorities. Finally, we are expanding Amesbury, Mike Brown, rh Mr Nicholas the job support scheme: businesses that have been legally Anderson, Fleur Bryant, Chris required to close, whether in tier 3 areas or elsewhere, Ashworth, Jonathan Buck, Ms Karen will be able to claim a direct wage subsidy. Bardell, Hannah Burgon, Richard Barker, Paula Butler, Dawn Let me say a couple of things on the issue more widely Beckett, rh Margaret Byrne, Ian before I finish. The hon. Member for Oxford East Begum, Apsana Byrne, rh Liam (Anneliese Dodds) quite rightly said at the outset of Benn, rh Hilary Cadbury, Ruth this pandemic that it would be, in her words, “completely Betts, Mr Clive Callaghan, Amy inappropriate” to engage in party politics on these Black, Mhairi Cameron, Dr Lisa desperately important issues of human life and human Blackford, rh Ian Campbell, rh Sir Alan wellbeing.Thehon.MemberforAshton-under-Lyne(Angela Blackman, Kirsty Carden, Dan Rayner) said that we should not be having “political Blake, Olivia Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair games”. I am afraid that an awful lot of what we have Blomfield, Paul Chamberlain, Wendy seen in the past 48 hours has been political games and Bonnar, Steven Champion, Sarah party politics. It is a terrible, terrible shame. Brabin, Tracy Chapman, Douglas 1125 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1126 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew Norris, Alex Spellar, rh John Clark, Feryal Hill, Mike O’Hara, Brendan Starmer, rh Keir Cooper, Daisy Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Stephens, Chris Cooper, Rosie Hobhouse, Wera Oppong-Asare, Abena Stevens, Jo Cooper, rh Yvette Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osamor, Kate Stone, Jamie Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Kate Streeting, Wes Cowan, Ronnie Hollern, Kate Oswald, Kirsten Stringer, Graham Coyle, Neil Hopkins, Rachel Owatemi, Taiwo Sultana, Zarah , Angela Hosie, Stewart Owen, Sarah Tami, rh Mark Creasy, Stella Howarth, rh Sir George Peacock, Stephanie Tarry, Sam Cruddas, Jon Huq, Dr Rupa Pennycook, Matthew Thewliss, Alison Cummins, Judith Hussain, Imran Perkins, Mr Toby Thomas, Gareth Cunningham, Alex Jardine, Christine Phillips, Jess Thomas-Symonds, Nick Daby, Janet Jarvis, Dan Pollard, Luke Thomson, Richard David, Wayne Johnson, Dame Diana Powell, Lucy Thornberry, rh Emily Davies, Geraint Johnson, Kim Qureshi, Yasmin Timms, rh Stephen Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Darren Rayner, Angela Trickett, Jon Day, Martyn Jones, Gerald Reed, Steve Turner, Karl De Cordova, Marsha Jones, rh Mr Kevan Rees, Christina Twigg, Derek Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Ruth Reeves, Ellie Twist, Liz Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, Sarah Reeves, Rachel Vaz, rh Valerie Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kane, Mike Reynolds, Jonathan Webbe, Claudia Dodds, Anneliese Keeley, Barbara Ribeiro-Addy, Bell West, Catherine Doogan, Dave Kendall, Liz Rimmer, Ms Marie Western, Matt Dorans, Allan Khan, Afzal Rodda, Matt Whitehead, Dr Alan Doughty, , Stephen Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whitford, Dr Philippa Dowd, Peter Kyle, Peter Saville Roberts, rh Liz Whitley, Mick Dromey, Jack Lake, Ben Shah, Naz Whittome, Nadia Duffield, Rosie Lammy, rh Mr David Shannon, Jim Williams, Hywel Eagle, Ms Angela Lavery, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra Wilson, Munira Eagle, Maria Law, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Winter, Beth Eastwood, Colum Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sheppard, Tommy Wishart, Pete Edwards, Jonathan Lewis, Clive Siddiq, Tulip Wragg, Mr William Efford, Clive Linden, David Slaughter, Andy Yasin, Mohammad Elliott, Julie Lloyd, Tony Smith, Alyn Zeichner, Daniel Elmore, Chris Long Bailey, Rebecca Smith, Cat Eshalomi, Florence Lynch, Holly Smith, Nick Tellers for the Ayes: Esterson, Bill MacAskill, Kenny Smyth, Karin Jeff Smith and Evans, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sobel, Alex Bambos Charalambous Farron, Tim Madders, Justin Farry, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid NOES Fellows, Marion Mahmood, Shabana Ferrier, Margaret Malhotra, Seema Adams, Nigel Bhatti, Saqib Fletcher, Colleen Maskell, Rachael Afolami, Bim Blackman, Bob Flynn, Stephen Matheson, Christian Afriyie, Adam Blunt, Crispin Fovargue, Yvonne Mc Nally, John Ahmad Khan, Imran Bone, Mr Peter Foxcroft, Vicky McCabe, Steve Aiken, Nickie Bottomley, Sir Peter Foy, Mary Kelly McCarthy, Kerry Aldous, Peter Bowie, Andrew Furniss, Gill McDonald, Andy Allan, Lucy Bradley, Ben Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Amess, Sir David Bradley, rh Karen Gibson, Patricia McDonald, Stuart C. Anderson, Lee Braverman, rh Suella Gill, Preet Kaur McDonnell, rh John Anderson, Stuart Brereton, Jack Glindon, Mary McFadden, rh Mr Pat Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Grady, Patrick McGinn, Conor Ansell, Caroline Brine, Steve Grant, Peter McKinnell, Catherine Argar, Edward Bristow, Paul Gray, Neil McLaughlin, Anne Atherton, Sarah Britcliffe, Sara Green, Chris McMahon, Jim Atkins, Victoria Brokenshire, rh James Green, Kate McMorrin, Anna Bacon, Gareth Browne, Anthony Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Bruce, Fiona Greenwood, Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Badenoch, Kemi Buchan, Felicity Griffith, Nia Mishra, Navendu Bailey, Shaun Buckland, rh Robert Gwynne, Andrew Monaghan, Carol Baillie, Siobhan Burghart, Alex Haigh, Louise Moran, Layla Baker, Duncan Burns, rh Conor Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Baker, Mr Steve Butler, Rob Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Cairns, rh Alun Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Barclay, rh Steve Carter, Andy Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Baron, Mr John Cartlidge, James Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James Baynes, Simon Cash, Sir William Harris, Carolyn Nandy, Lisa Bell, Aaron Cates, Miriam Hayes, Helen Newlands, Gavin Benton, Scott Caulfield, Maria Healey, rh John Nichols, Charlotte Beresford, Sir Paul Chalk, Alex Hendrick, Sir Mark Nicolson, John Berry, rh Jake Chishti, Rehman 1127 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 1128 Fair Economic Support Fair Economic Support Churchill, Jo Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Russell, Dean Clark, rh Greg Green, rh Damian Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Clarke, Mr Simon Griffith, Andrew Lord, Mr Jonathan Sambrook, Gary Clarke, Theo Griffiths, Kate Loughton, Tim Saxby, Selaine Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grundy, James Mackinlay, Craig Scully, Paul Clarkson, Chris Gullis, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Seely, Bob Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert Maclean, Rachel Selous, Andrew Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hall, Luke Mak, Alan Shapps, rh Grant Colburn, Elliot Hammond, Stephen Malthouse, Kit Sharma, rh Alok Collins, Damian Hancock, rh Matt Mangnall, Anthony Shelbrooke, rh Alec Costa, Alberto Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott Simmonds, David Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie Skidmore, rh Chris Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Chloe Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harrison, Trudy Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Greg Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, Sally-Ann Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Crosbie, Virginia Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Smith, rh Julian Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Smith, Royston Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Solloway, Amanda Davies, David T. C. Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Spencer, Dr Ben Davies, Gareth Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, rh Mark Davies, Dr James Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Stafford, Alexander Davies, Mims Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stephenson, Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Higginbotham, Antony Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, Jane Davison, Dehenna Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Dinenage, Caroline Hoare, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Iain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Damien Streeter, Sir Gary Donelan, Michelle Holloway, Adam Moore, Robbie Stride, rh Mel Dorries, Ms Nadine Holmes, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny Sturdy, Julian Double, Steve Howell, John Morris, Anne Marie Sunak, rh Rishi Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, Paul Morris, David Sunderland, James Doyle-Price, Jackie Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Drax, Richard Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Syms, Sir Robert Drummond, Mrs Flick Hughes, Eddie Morton, Wendy Thomas, Derek Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Mullan, Dr Kieran Throup, Maggie Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Mumby-Croft, Holly Timpson, Edward Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mundell, rh David Tolhurst, Kelly Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Edwards, Ruth Javid, rh Sajid Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Ellis, rh Michael Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Neill, Sir Robert Tracey, Craig Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse Trott, Laura Eustice, rh George Jenkyns, Andrea O’Brien, Neil Tugendhat, Tom Evans, Dr Luke Jenrick, rh Robert Offord, Dr Matthew Vickers, Martin Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, rh Boris Opperman, Guy Vickers, Matt Everitt, Ben Johnson, Dr Caroline Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Theresa Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Gareth Patel, rh Priti Wakeford, Christian Farris, Laura Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Sir Charles Fell, Simon Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Fletcher, Katherine Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike Wallis, Dr Jamie Fletcher, Mark Jones, Fay Penrose, John Warburton, David Fletcher, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Warman, Matt Ford, Vicky Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Watling, Giles Foster, Kevin Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Webb, Suzanne Francois, rh Mr Mark Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Whately, Helen Frazer, Lucy Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca Wheeler, Mrs Heather Freeman, George Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Whittaker, Craig Freer, Mike Knight, Julian Pritchard, Mark Whittingdale, rh Mr John Fuller, Richard Kruger, Danny Quince, Will Wiggin, Bill Fysh, Mr Marcus Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Raab, rh Dominic Wild, James Gale, rh Sir Roger Lamont, John Randall, Tom Williams, Craig Garnier, Mark Largan, Robert Redwood, rh John Williamson, rh Gavin Gibb, rh Nick Leadsom, rh Andrea Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wood, Mike Richards, Nicola Gibson, Peter Leigh, rh Sir Edward Wright, rh Jeremy Richardson, Angela Gideon, Jo Levy, Ian Young, Jacob Roberts, Rob Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewer, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Glen, John Lewis, rh Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robinson, Mary Tellers for the Noes: Rosindell, Andrew Leo Docherty and Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rowley, Lee Tom Pursglove Graham, Richard Loder, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Logan, Mark Gray, James Longhi, Marco Question accordingly negatived. 1129 Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: 21 OCTOBER 2020 1130 Fair Economic Support [Jesse Norman] Free School Meals

The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their House that I have selected the amendment in the name proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. of the Prime Minister. Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added. 4.32 pm Question agreed to. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I beg to The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as move, amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). That this House calls on the Government to continue directly Resolved, funding provision of free school meals over the school holidays until Easter 2021 to prevent over a million children going hungry That this House recognises the virus is sa1preading differently during this crisis. across the country which supports the need for a regional and local approach; acknowledges the fact that repeated national I am very pleased to open today’s debate on such an lockdowns should be avoided given the cost they have on mental important motion on behalf of children across the wellbeing, access to NHS treatment, and jobs in the economy; country who are at risk of going hungry and of all the supports the Government’s Job Support Scheme which protects families worried that their children will be hungry over the jobs and incomes of those in affected businesses; recognises the school holidays. the extra financial support provided to Local Authorities for enforcement, local contact tracing and businesses, and approves The truth is that we should not be having this debate of Government trying to work with local representatives to at all. In the summer, when this issue was debated in this improve enforcement and Test and Trace. House, the Government saw sense, did the right thing and ensured that no child would go hungry over the Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): On a point summer holidays. This time, however, despite many of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As Mancunians, we agree families facing even more challenging circumstances that being fair is most important, after being proud of now than they did four months ago, shamefully the who we are and where we come from. Is it in order for a Government are walking away from their obligation to senior member of the Labour Front Bench, the hon. hungry children. In their hearts, hon. Members on the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), to Government Benches who rightly supported the extension call out repeatedly “scum” when my hon. Friend the of free school meals over the summer holidays know Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) that. They will also know that the thousands of families was talking, and then fail to retract it or apologise? who rely on free school meals to help them to make Today, she has shamed Manchester and shamed this ends meet will watch with great interest how they vote House. She should apologise. this evening. I am aware that there are some right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches who Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the are indicating that they will vote in favour of this hon. Lady for giving me notice of the point of order. I motion. I commend them for setting party politics aside understand that she informed the office of the hon. and I hope that by the end of this evening many more of Member for Ashton-under-Lyne that she was making their colleagues will join them. that point of order. That is always important, by the More than 1.4 million children benefit from free way. The Chairman of Ways and Means dealt with this school meals. Nearly 900,000 eligible children live in matter when the exchange to which the hon. Lady refers areas now subject to tier 2 and tier 3 covid restrictions. occurred. I will, therefore, not revisit it, but I remind Their families face an upcoming furlough cliff-edge, an hon. Members that they should use appropriate language inadequate replacement system and the deep fear of in their contributions in the Chamber and in any sedentary growing unemployment. So the question for Members contributions. I also remind the House of the words in on the Government Benches is simple: are they absolutely “Erskine May”: confident that support is adequate and that no child in “Good temper and moderation are characteristics of parliamentary their constituencies will go hungry? language.” I was only in the chair for 45 minutes of the last debate, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Does the and I heard terminology and language that made me hon. Lady consider this to be a temporary measure wince. I did not intervene then, but I will next time. while the covid crisis continues or a permanent measure I am not going to suspend the House now, because that would be on the statute book indefinitely? the Dispatch Boxes were sanitised during the Division. To save time and so that at least one more Member may Kate Green: I am grateful to the hon. Member. Initially, speak, we will move straight on to the next debate. I would suggest that we urgently need a measure that will take us through this half term and the remainder of this academic year. We understand that nobody can predict how the virus might progress over the coming months, but it is crystal clear that what we need to vote for tonight is an urgent emergency measure to protect children and families who are struggling.

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene in the midst of her excellent oration. There are 3,891 children in Slough who are known to require free school meals. 1131 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1132

Does she agree that if feeding those children over the country who are genuinely struggling. Imagine being a summer was the right and humane thing to do in the parent of one of the more than 3,000 children in the middle of a pandemic, surely it is right and honourable Prime Minister’s constituency who benefits from free to feed them over the winter when their parents are school meals. To read one week about how hard it is to struggling to put food on the table and more than 1 make ends meet on £150,000 a year and then to see the million children could potentially go hungry? Or does provision of a free meal for your child taken away a few she think that the Prime Minister has merely changed days later is utterly inexplicable. his priorities once again? The fact that we need to have this debate is a sign of repeated failures on the part of the Government—a Kate Green: My hon. Friend makes a very reasonable failure of compassion, a failure of competence, not point, and he is right to draw attention to the Prime recognising the challenges that parents face and not Minister’s view on this matter, because Downing Street giving them the support they need to provide for their said just the other day: children. “It’s not for schools to provide food to pupils during the school holidays.” Dr (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): There I cannot believe I have to spell this out: it is the are roughly 14 million people living in relative poverty Government’s responsibility to ensure that children do this year. In 2000, there were roughly 14 million people not go hungry, and they do not stop being hungry just living in relative poverty. Why were Labour not able to because the school bell rings for the end of term. Surely fix the problems of relative poverty when they were in our constituents send us to this place as Members of power? Parliament to vote to ensure that the children who most need our help at any time of year are protected. Kate Green: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like me to enlighten him on the poverty figures during Labour’s Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The period in office. In 2010-11, there were 3.5 million hon. Lady is making a passionate and thought-through children living in relative poverty. Today, the figure after speech. Does she agree that the holiday periods are housing costs is 4.2 million. I would advise him to be always a difficulty—whether or not there is a pandemic—for very careful about quoting child poverty figures to Labour those children from families on free school meals? They Members. always need that support, and that should be something We have a failure of leadership today—a failure to be we are doing irrespective of the pandemic. In my clear and unequivocal. No child should go hungry in constituency,40% of the entire workforce are on furlough. one of the world’s richest countries, but where the The cliff edge is coming in a few days’ time, when the Government have failed to show leadership, many others number of people desperate for support will increase have stepped up to do the right thing. As the Member of massively. Is it not therefore right that we take action Parliament for Old Trafford, I am very proud to pay today? tribute to Marcus Rashford. I congratulate him on his late winning goal last night and I hope that he will score Kate Green: That is right. The debate this evening is another late victory today when we vote on Labour’s urgent. Let me say to Members on the Government motion. I congratulate and thank the many others Benches: please put party politics aside tonight and for across the country who are acting and campaigning to the sake of our children vote to extend free school end child poverty and food poverty. meals. After all, since the summer holidays, exactly as we have just heard, the situation has got worse and more Kevin Hollinrake: Will the hon. Lady give way? desperate for millions of families. While the provision of free school meals is being Kate Green: If the hon. Member will forgive me, closed, the gravy train is still open for business—with no—I will make progress and let others in. £7,000 a day for consultants working on a test and trace It gives me huge pride to see people come together system that does not work, £130 million to a Conservative and take action where the Government are failing to do party donor for unsafe covid testing kits, £160 million so. Co-operative schools are already committing to of profits for Serco and an increased dividend for its providing free school meals over the holidays. That shareholders, because the Government threw good money represents the very best of the co-op movement—a after bad on a test and trace contract that is robbing the movement built on support for one another, on people public. Yesterday, a Business Minister said that extending helping their neighbours in their community and doing free school meals was not as simple as writing a cheque, what is right for the most disadvantaged. Will the Secretary but why is it that the money only runs out when it is of State follow their example? hungry children who need it? Colleagues in the Government, in I am surprised there is not greater recognition on the Northern Ireland and in some parts of Scotland have Government Benches that families across the country already committed to providing free school meals over are finding it very difficult to manage. It was, after all, the holidays until Easter. Again, I ask: will the Secretary only a matter of weeks ago that national newspapers of State follow their example? Catering staff across our were full of briefings from friends of the Prime Minister schools have worked flat out to fulfil their essential role reporting anxiety about how he had to provide for his in providing free school meals. They are among the family. He had a new baby and, with the loss of his many low-paid workers we have learned to depend on lucrative newspaper columns, his friends said it was a during the pandemic, but many feel that their jobs and strain to manage on his £150,000 salary as Prime Minister. livelihoods are at risk. Will the Secretary of State tell us It is frankly contemptible that the kind of concern we what steps are being taken to protect and support the read in the national newspapers for the Prime Minister’s jobs of school catering staff and others who deliver this finances is not extended to the millions across this support to our children? 1133 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1134

[Kate Green] why we have undertaken the most radical overhaul of our welfare system since Beveridge,by introducing universal Before the pandemic, there were over 4 million children credit, ensuring that work pays for everyone. If we had growing up in poverty. In the months ahead, that will not taken those bold actions—actions that were opposed only increase. Child poverty is a pandemic of its own. It by Labour at every single stage—this country would not is a pandemic that reflects the great evils still haunting have been in a position to support those families and our society—a society blighted by wages that are not individuals, who are most vulnerable in society. enough for working families to make ends meet, a housing crisis that creates insecurity and a social security Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): May I take the system cut to ribbons by the Conservative party. Secretary of State back to children and schools? As my I recognise today’s proposals are not a silver bullet, hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston and they will not end child poverty. They are a sticking (Kate Green) has outlined, schools are anchors in the plaster,but one that is badly and urgently needed—needed community. School leaders are already overburdened by the 1.4 million children who could go hungry without by much of what they are having to do, but they are them and by families worried about putting food on the already doing much of it. This week I visited FareShare table—so will the Secretary of State do what is right South West in Bristol, which reaches out and uses and take this first small step to ensure that over a community anchors to feed children and families. Wehave million children do not go hungry this Christmas? a golden opportunity to use schools as community As I said at the outset, the Government should never anchors. The Secretary of State needs to see this differently have let things get this far. They still do not have to. The and do that, and also include nurseries and children’s Secretary of State can stand up now and do the right centres—the anchors for families. He needs to reconsider. thing. He can listen to Labour, to campaigners and to Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Lady for highlighting families across the country, withdraw his amendment another Government initiative—FareShare receives and support our motion. Sadly, I do not think he will considerable support from the Government, as do such do so.Yet months ago, Marcus Rashford asked the question schemes as Magic Breakfast, in recognition of the important that started this debate and that saw the Government role that the voluntary sector plays in provision and extend free school meals over the summer. Today I support for schools and children. Let me also take this ask—[Interruption.] Oh, don’t be silly! The hon. Member opportunity to thank not just the teachers and support for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) knows perfectly staff in her constituency,but those in all our constituencies, well that the one thing I am not is frit. Today I ask the who have done an amazing job in ensuring, despite Secretary of State the same simple question: can we all opposition from Labour on numerous occasions, that agree that no child should go to bed hungry? I commend every school has the opportunity to open and that our motion to the House. children can go back, as we have been able to do so. 4.45 pm (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): As my predecessor as candidate in Blackpool North I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” and Fleetwood, my right hon. Friend will know that I to the end of the Question and add: have some 6,000 pupils reliant on free school meals in “notes that schools are now fully operational following the covid-19 my constituency, and I am deeply disappointed by the outbreak, and will continue to offer free school meals in term decision that has been taken at the moment. Will he time; welcomes the substantial support provided by the Government to children worth £550 million annually; further welcomes that commit to pushing in the comprehensive spending review this support has been bolstered by almost £53 billion worth of for a much more strategic approach that rolls out the income protection schemes, and £9.3 billion of additional welfare school holiday activity fund nationwide—a universal payments; notes that eligible families have also been supported approach to tackling child poverty that does not just throughout lockdown through the receipt of meal vouchers worth stigmatise those on free school meals? £380 million while schools were partially closed, alongside the Holiday Activities and Food Fund; and further supports the Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend raises a really Government in its ongoing activities to help the most vulnerable important point, which I was going to come to, about children in society.” the important role that the holiday activities and food As we all know, this is a unique and hugely challenging programme has played in making a real difference for period that our nation faces. We understand the profound children. This debate should not be just about food; we impact that the pandemic has had on people’s lives. have to look at different ways that we can support Supporting those on lower incomes and vulnerable children and families. Children, often from the most families is very much at the heart of the Government’s deprived backgrounds, are sometimes in a situation response. I recognise and understand the strength of over the long summer period of not being able to have feeling around this issue, both within this House and the level of support that we would like to see all children more widely. I would like to take this opportunity to benefit from, and we should look at how we can roll out outline the significant steps that we have taken to support that programme more into the future. It has been very children during the pandemic and the package of support successful in the previous two years and we would like available from the Government for families who might to see how we can do more in the future. otherwise be facing hardship. As my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and Mr Dhesi rose— Chancellor of the Exchequer have both made clear throughout this period, the Government will continue Gavin Williamson: I am looking forward with enthusiasm to support people affected by coronavirus. We have to turning to the hon. Gentleman, but let me just finish taken unprecedented action to support families and addressing the points made by my hon. Friend the jobs, as we take measures to tackle this virus. That is MemberforBlackpoolNorthandCleveleys(PaulMaynard). 1135 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1136

As my hon. Friend will know, we have invested a are a good way of getting food out to those families that considerable amount of money in the opportunity areas, really need it, so will he re-look at meal vouchers for which are looking at some of the real long-term challenges Christmas? that we have in Blackpool as well as in 12 other areas right around the country.1 I would be very happy to sit Gavin Williamson: That is what is so incredibly important down with him to see how we can link up what we are about our free school meals programme, which originally doing with the Blackpool opportunity area, and the came into existence in 1906 and has evolved considerably progress that we are making on that, in addressing some since. The programme has the raised the standards of of the concerns that I know he has. what children receive and has expanded to support so Let me make just a little more progress, and then I many others. It is an important part of what we deliver. will hand over to the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi), I will touch on that later in my speech. who I know is keen to get in. I was talking about universal credit and how it has been such an important Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) rose— part of our response to the covid crisis. If we had not had universal credit in place, the job of the Department Gavin Williamson: I know that the hon. Lady is eager for Work and Pensions and the whole of Government to intervene—I am sure that it is an interchangeable would have been so much more challenging in being point that she can probably make at any time in my able support everyone in this country.By tapering benefits speech. If I could make some progress, I will give way to and providing work allowances to those facing the her later. greatest barriers to work, we ensure that people are always Since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, we have better off in work. Something that is often forgotten is been prioritising supporting jobs.Weare helping employees the number of barriers that we inherited and had to deal to get back into work with an £1,000 bonus for employers with when we came to power back in 2010, as a result of if they keep on a member of staff. We are doubling the the legacy of the last Labour Government. number of frontline work coaches, and putting in place That is why between 2015-16 and 2019-20, we have a new job support scheme to protect jobs and businesses taken 1.7 million people out of tax. Yes, we on the that are facing lower demand over the winter due to Government side of the House believe that tax cuts are coronavirus. We are determined to build back better, good, and they benefit the poorest in society by taking which is why we have introduced a £30 billion plan for them out of tax. We provided approximately 32 million jobs, including the £2 billion kickstart scheme to help people with a tax cut by raising the personal tax allowance 250,000 16 to 24-year-olds on universal credit to get a to £12,500. I personally, and I think a lot of Government foot on the jobs ladder. Members, think that helping 32 million people is a good Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) rose— thing. Gavin Williamson: I am going to give way to the hon. Mr Dhesi: I thank the Secretary of State for his kind Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) before the words and for allowing me to intervene. Food bank hon. Lady, but first I will make just a little bit more usage is predicted to be 61% higher this coming winter progress. than it was last winter. That is a mere prediction. It will In this unprecedented time, the Government are proud take a lot more than free school meals to sort out this to have injected £9 billion into the welfare system, poverty crisis, but does the Secretary of State agree that because we on this side of the House recognised that that is the least we can do to help support struggling action needed to be taken to protect and support those families? who are most vulnerable. That support has been targeted at those on low incomes, and includes increasing universal Gavin Williamson: I know that the hon. Gentleman is credit and working tax credit by up to £1,040 for this a man who has great passion and belief on the subject financial year, which benefits more than 4 million of education and how we support the most vulnerable households.Wehave also provided an additional £63 million people in society, and he raises an important point about in welfare assistance funding for local authorities to how we can support those people. Our view is, clearly, support families with urgent needs, including over the that the best way of doing that is through the universal October half-term. credit system and ensuring that we have a welfare system that works for everyone in this country. Munira Wilson: I was not going to make an inter- As I touched on, we have raised the personal tax changeable point; I actually wanted to pick up on a allowance to £12,500 to ensure that those on the lowest point that the Secretary of State made earlier in his incomes benefit, and at the same time we have raised the speech about raising the income tax personal allowance. adult national living wage to £8.72, up from the adult Given that he is making such a passionate defence of national minimum wage of £5.80 at the start of 2010. what was a Liberal Democrat policy in the coalition Government, perhaps he might follow another Liberal Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I very Democrat policy—that of the Education Minister in much welcome the support being given to poorer families, Wales, Kirsty Williams, who has extended free school but the Select Committee on Environment, Food and meals until April next year—so that some 2,000 children Rural Affairs looked at covid and the food supply, and in my constituency of Twickenham will not go hungry there is no doubt that it is hugely challenging for the in the holidays this winter. poorest in society to get food at the moment. Does the Secretary of State accept that some of these families are Gavin Williamson: The hon. Lady will probably very challenged, and that if we give them money, it does remember that it was a coalition Government that the not necessarily get to food for children—[Interruption.] Liberal Democrats were part of. We are proud that the No, it does not. Therefore, I think school meal vouchers UK Government have provided free school meals to 1.[Official Report, 3 November 2020, Vol. 683, c. 4MC.] 1137 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1138

[Gavin Williamson] (Kate Green) seems to be moving away from the motion that she tabled. I was a little confused about whether those who have needed them for over a century. They she was developing her policy at the Dispatch Box, or are an essential part of our education system, supporting whether her policy is stated in the motion. 1.4 million students from the lowest-income families to There are real challenges around youngsters and tackling learn and to achieve in the classroom. poverty,and Conservative Members are intent on ensuring This Government have always recognised the importance that we put in place actions to deal with those issues, of free school meals. That is why it was the Conservatives, and that families, children, and individuals get the in coalition with the Liberal Democrats—the hon. Member support they need. The best way to do that is through for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) may want the welfare system; the best way to do that is by supporting to intervene at this point—who, in September 2014, people into work, as that is always the best route out of extended free school meals to disadvantaged further poverty. education students for the first time ever. Throughout the coronavirus pandemic, schools have continued to Kate Green rose— receive their expected funding to cover both free school meals and universal infant free school meals. Gavin Williamson: I will make some progress, and then I will give way to the hon. Lady. In March we took Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I was the unprecedented step of asking schools to close to all not going to make that point, but it was actually another but a very small number of children. Given that children example of a policy that you guys definitely did oppose, were expected to study from home in such an unexpected and which we managed to persuade you to do. But that manner, we took swift and decisive action, and invested is not my point. significant funding to ensure that we could continue My point is about support for children, particularly free school meal provision for eligible children. We also, from disadvantaged backgrounds, when it comes to temporarily, extended eligibility for free school meals to their learning. It is clear that young people who have no children from families with no recourse to public funds—an access to learning technology at home fall further behind arrangement that we have extended into the autumn than those who do have access to wi-fi, laptops and term while we undertake a review. It is right that such larger screens. There are 2,300 children living in poverty— extraordinary measures were put in place at the start of below the poverty line—in my constituency, yet only the pandemic. 116 PCs were delivered to support them. Should not the Now that pupils are back in schools, kitchens are Secretary of State look at that provision again, so that open once again to provide healthy, nutritious meals to people from poorer backgrounds do not fall further all children—including those eligible for free school behind at school? meals—aiding their academic performance,and supporting attendance and engagement. We have also set out in Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman raises an guidance information for schools and caterers to support important point about learning for children. He has the free school meal pupils who are self-isolating, through privilege of representing a beautiful and rural part of the provision of food parcels to those children. the world, and he know some of the challenges that come with that. Beauty can often disguise some of the Kate Green: I simply wanted to ask the Secretary of poverty that sits behind it, and he is right to mention State, in the context of what he was saying about his some of the challenges around how we support schools. party’s determination to reduce child poverty, whether We have extended the laptop scheme, making more he agrees with his colleague who, today at lunchtime on available. In total, close to 500,000 laptops will be made the BBC, said that there have always been hungry available for schools, and we continue to work with the children, as if that were somehow a reason not to take sector to do everything we can to support schools in action. the delivery of remote education. Gavin Williamson: I think it is fair to say that Members Kevin Hollinrake rose— on both sides of the House are united in their commitment to drive out poverty and to make sure that children do Gavin Williamson: I will give way to my hon. Friend, not go hungry. We will do everything we can to support but I hope Members will forgive me if I then make some families and help them to do well and to succeed, and to progress. provide them with a world-class education system driving up standards. That is what drives Conservative Members Kevin Hollinrake: These are obviously exceptional and always will. times, but temporary solutions tend to become permanent. By the way, it was not me who called the shadow (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) Secretary of State “frit”—I wanted to clear that up. If (Con) rose— Opposition Members are suggesting a permanent right Gavin Williamson: I give way to my hon. Friend. to free school meals during the holidays, why did they not introduce such a provision during their many years Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The in power? Should we have an honest conversation with Secretary of State has been incredibly generous with the public about whether such a measure would require interventions, but there are 43 Members on the call list raising taxes to pay for that increased welfare? and we would like to get them in. There will be time limits, by the way, so please keep that in mind. Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend raises important points about what is temporary and what is permanent. David Simmonds: Was the Secretary of State moved, Indeed, there seems to be some disagreement here, as I was, by The Times “Red Box” article that Marcus because the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston Rashford wrote? Did he find it quite striking that the 1139 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1140 anxiety and difficulties that he described in growing up, achieving a good level of development at the end of with his mum’s worry about feeding the children, took reception year has gone from one in two to nearly three place entirely under a Labour Government who claimed out of four. that eradicating child poverty was their front and central However, we recognise that these are unprecedented policy? and difficult times for some families, and that is why the Government have significantly strengthened the welfare Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend points out that net. We have put in place additional welfare measures this is a challenge that both parties face. There is a sense worth around £9 billion in this financial year, including of commitment on the Conservative Benches to make a increasing universal credit and working tax credit by up real and long-lasting difference to this, and that is what to £1,040 for this financial year, benefiting more than we will do. 4 million households. These welfare measures sit alongside We have sent out our guidance information to schools our extensive support package, including the income about how they can be supporting children from the protection schemes that have so far protected 12 million most disadvantaged backgrounds. We understand how jobs at a cost of almost £53 billion for England alone. important this is.It is a continued focus of this Government This is one of the most significant interventions by any and always will be. Schools are an integral part of our Government in the western world. We recognise how local communities. However, free school meals have important it is to protect not only jobs but families, and only ever been intended to provide support during that is why we have taken these interventions. Taken term-time periods while children are engaging in activity together, it is clear that the Government have taken and learning. The provision of a healthy school meal significant and unprecedented action to support children helps children to concentrate and learn, as most recently and families at risk of hardship during this period. evidenced by the pilot programme in 2012 that led to Free school meals are, and always have been, about the introduction of universal infant free school meals in supporting children with a meal to help them to learn 2014. This complements a wider range of Government when they are at school or, indeed, currently at home support that responds more directly to the challenges learning. However, it is our support through universal faced by families on lower incomes, and is further credit and our comprehensive welfare system that supports supplemented by the additional support in place as a families. I have outlined a significant series of actions direct result of the pandemic. from across Government to support families who may otherwise struggle in the light of a pandemic, including Wera Hobhouse rose— £9 billion in welfare, £53 billion for job support measures, £63 million for local authorities to help those with urgent Gavin Williamson: I do apologise, but Mr Deputy needs and £350 million to help the most disadvantaged Speaker has been quite clear about wanting me to make students to catch up at school. Those are just a few progress, and I would best do so. things that this Government have put in place to support During the unprecedented and unpredictable period those who are most disadvantaged. They represent a at the start of the pandemic, it was right that extra direct financial response to the pandemic and demonstrate measures were taken to provide free school meals during that the Government are doing everything possible to the holidays, but we are in a different position now that support those who need help. I encourage Members we have welcomed all pupils back to school. We know from across the House to support the Government as that the long summer break is the time when families we tackle this pandemic and the impact it has on people most welcome support, and when children will most across society, and I commend our amendment to the benefit from engaging activities so that they are ready to House. learn when they return to school in September. For the past three years, we have supported disadvantaged children Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call with free healthy meals and enriching activities through Brendan O’Hara, I should like to inform the House that our holiday activities and food programme. This summer, the time limit will be five minutes for the Chairman of the £9 million holiday activities and food programme the Education Committee and four minutes thereafter. supported about 50,000 children across 17 different local authority areas. We have also provided £63 million 5.11 pm in welfare assistance funding to local authorities to Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP): It is a support families with urgent needs. This funding was pleasure to speak in the debate this afternoon and to passed to councils in July to provide local access to give the full support of the Scottish National party to funding for those who need support, including families this Opposition motion. Wevery much welcome this debate, facing financial challenge. particularly as just yesterday the Scottish Government Education is the No. 1 route to opportunity and announced a £10 million package of funding for local prosperity. We invest more in the education of authorities to continue providing free school meals over disadvantaged children to give them the very best chance the forthcoming school holidays, up to and including in life, both through the weighted national funding the Easter break of 2021. The Scottish Government did formula and the £2.4 billion annual pupil premium. We that, quite simply, because in the middle of a global have invested £1 billion in the covid catch-up fund, pandemic and with an economic crisis looming, that including investing in the national tutoring programme, was the right thing to do. As the Cabinet Secretary for which will offer high-quality small-group tutoring to Social Security, Shirley-Anne Somerville, said: disadvantaged pupils who have fallen furthest behind. “We are doing all we can to ensure the right support gets to the We are equally determined to encourage the continuation right people at the right time in the right way”. of high-quality childcare, which helps parents to work Part of getting the right support to the right people in and is a critical building block in children’s development. the right way at the right time involves ensuring that We are proud that since 2013 the proportion of children those who are most exposed to the economic consequences 1141 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1142

[Brendan O’Hara] Children going hungry in a country as rich as this is a consequence—a direct consequence—of political choices. of the pandemic know that their children will still at A decade of austerity in which the poorest and weakest least have one hot meal every day, even if it is during the in our society were forced to carry the can and bear the school holidays. I agree with the hon. Member for brunt of a financial crisis that had nothing to do with Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) that it is remarkable them was a political choice, and so too is the decision to that, in the 21st century, at a time like this, in one of the take away poor children’s food during an economic and richest countries in the world, we are even having to health crisis. It is staggering. debate this or to ask the Government to fund free school meals over the school holiday period to prevent Wera Hobhouse: I was going to ask the Secretary of 1.5 million of the poorest and most vulnerable children State this. We all know how important healthy eating in England from going hungry. is—not just food on the table but healthy food on the I, too, would like to pay tribute to the work done by table. During the covid crisis, the Government suspended Marcus Rashford to shine a light on this issue. As a the fruit and veg scheme, and it was only reinstated hugely successful young professional athlete, it would after some serious campaigning by the organisation have been so easy for him not to have done what he has, Sustain. Does the hon. Member agree with me and but it is a measure of him as a person that he has not Sustain that the fruit and veg scheme should be extended forgotten where he came from and the struggle that his to all primary school children, so that they have the family and others had to endure every day growing up. benefit of it? In his public petition, he is asking the Government to keep going with the free school meal programme that Brendan O’Hara: That is not really a question for was put in place over the summer holidays and did so me—I am not and never would aspire to be the Secretary much to help children from low-income families, who of State for Education—but I take on board the hon. have been hardest hit by the pandemic. It is not a huge Member’s point, because it is about political choices. ask, but it has struck a chord across these islands, That is why I am so pleased that the Scottish Government including several hundred of my constituents in Argyll have chosen to use the limited powers they have to and Bute, who, although not directly affected by this, support 156,000 of our children and young people by have been struck by the sincerity and compassion of committing £10 million to ensure that those children this young man. who need it will continue to get a free school meal during this holiday and every holiday up to Easter 2021. Sadly, that compassion was not replicated in the In addition, the Scottish Government have announced Government’s response to the petition reaching 300,000 £20 million of funding to be made available to local signatures. Their spokesperson said: councils to help tackle financial insecurity. That funding “It’s not for schools to regularly provide food to pupils during will be sufficiently flexible for councils to be able to the school holidays. We believe the best way to support families outside of term time is through Universal Credit rather than provide support to people who, shamefully, have no government subsidising meals.” recourse to public funds and would otherwise be destitute Of course, they said that when the Government had just and have no access to mainstream benefits. announced that they were taking the £20 universal Of course child poverty still exists in Scotland; no credit uplift away. That particularly dismissive, not to one could or would deny it. But the difference between say callous, response exposes just how hollow the what the UK Government are doing and what the SNP Chancellor’s promise was back in the summer to do is doing in Holyrood is that the Scottish Government “whatever it takes” to help people through this crisis. As are doing what they can, with limited powers, to alleviate we head into what will certainly be very difficult times the worst effects of the Government’s policies, to try to this winter, with coronavirus cases on the rise, prompting improve the lives of Scotland’s poorest children. That fears of a second wave, taking away food from under- was recognised by both the Joseph Rowntree Foundation privileged children seems a perverse way of doing whatever and the United Nations special rapporteur on extreme it takes to help. Bizarrely, that same UK Government poverty, who praised the Scottish Government for using spokesperson said of the summer holiday school meal what he described as their scheme: “newly devolved powers to establish a promising social security “This is a specific measure to reflect the unique circumstances system guided by the principles of dignity”. of the pandemic” Included in that new security system is the Scottish as if we had somehow come through it all, the pandemic child payment, which will pay the equivalent of £10 a had gone and everything had returned to normal. Is week per child to families with eligible children who are that really what the Government wanted to say? Is that currently in receipt of low-income benefit. From November, the message that they wanted to get out? If so, it is the fund will be open to families with children under the palpable nonsense,as any health professional, self-employed age of six, recognising that, of all children in poverty, worker, hospitality business owner, seasonal worker or almost 60% live in a family where a child is under six someone who is about to lose their furlough will years old. Although there is no cap to the number of confirm—as will the parent and carer of every poor children per family, it means, for a family with two child in England whose income has fallen and are now children under six, £1,040 a year extra in their pockets. reliant on food banks and for whom a free school meal That is expected to alleviate the worst excesses of poverty had become almost a daily necessity. for 194,000 children, and it is a significant investment This is a political choice. There is no doubt that if this by the Scottish Government. Government prioritised eradicating poverty, the money I understand that the Government intend to vote would be found in an instant, because poverty is not against the motion tonight. I hope the Whips have done accidental. It is not inevitable. It is a political choice. their arithmetic, because I understand that at least one Poverty is not something that happens by accident. group of Conservatives will be voting with the Opposition 1143 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1144 this evening—the Scottish Conservatives. It was less First, I urge the Government to collect and publish than a month ago that the new leader, the hon. Member proper data on child food insecurity. The most recent for Moray (Douglas Ross), declared that providing free DFE estimate of the number of children eligible for free school meals, breakfast and lunch to every primary school meals, provided to me in a recent letter from the school pupil in Scotland was to be his flagship policy in Children’s Minister, is 1.4 million. The figures are from next year’s Scottish elections. He said: January 2020, and we know that since then the world “I have seen myself the difference that providing free meals can has been turned on its head. The Food Foundation suggests make. I just want to make sure no-one falls through the cracks that the figure is now more like 2.2 million children, and by giving this to all primary school pupils we can make sure with 900,000 newly registered. the offer is there for everyone.” To the Government’s credit, there are a number of Given his words, it is absolutely inconceivable that he schemes to relieve food hunger, but what is being done and his colleagues would do anything other than vote to ensure that they are working? In September, for for the motion tonight and provide the same level of example, just 47.3% of eligible mothers were receiving support for the 1.5 million children in England who will healthy start vouchers, and those uptake figures are in benefit from school meals. That is why, despite being decline. Much more could be done to boost awareness wholly devolved, we will be in the Lobby this evening of those schemes, digitise healthy start vouchers and alongside, I believe, every single Scottish MP when the ensure that all those eligible for free school meals are House divides this evening. registered quickly. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): It will be five Secondly, free school meals should be extended over minutes for the Chair of the Education Select Committee the school holidays temporarily for as long as the big and four minutes thereafter. effects of the pandemic continue to be felt. I would only support that temporarily.If we acknowledge that children risk going hungry in term time by providing them with 5.21 pm free school meals despite the provision of universal RobertHalfon(Harlow)(Con):Throughoutthepandemic, credit and the other things that have been mentioned by the Secretary of State has acted significantly to support the Government, we know that they risk going hungry families in financial distress,and I thank both the Children’s in the holidays too. Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Thirdly, as the report by the House of Lords Select (Vicky Ford), and the Minister with responsibility for Committee on Food, Poverty,Health and the Environment, universal credit, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester “Hungry for change: fixing the failures in food”, (Will Quince), for the many discussions that I have had recommended, when calculating universal credit allowances, with them on these subjects. the Government must consider the cost of buying The £20 a week uplift to universal credit and the and preparing healthy, nutritious meals under its own £63 million for local authorities to provide families with Eatwell scheme. Fourthly, the Government should emergency food and essential supplies has been a lifeline, implement the private Member’s Bill introduced by the but all the while that support has been in place, food hon. Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) insecurity has continued to rise. Between January and on school breakfasts and give all disadvantaged September 2020, the Harlow food bank gave out 118 tonnes schools the funding to provide a free school breakfast of food—nearly double the tonnage of last year—and to children at risk of hunger. We know that that increases nationally, 32% of households have experienced a drop educational progress by two months, and average GCSE in income since late March. An estimated 1.9 million achievement goes up for those children who have a children have been affected by food insecurity in the regular breakfast. same period, according to the Food Foundation, and Fifthly, we need a programme of holiday activities 2% of adults said they had skipped meals entirely. That not just over the summer, but over every school holiday, is only set to continue. to offer academic catch-up, as well as mental health and Neil Parish: My right hon. Friend is quite right about wellbeing support. I have seen that work in my constituency food insecurity, because that is exactly what the of Harlow, with children getting fed. Of course, I Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee report understand there are significant financial constraints found. Does he agree that, if a sugar tax were implemented, on the Treasury right now, but these proposals do not raising £300 million, it would cost about £20 million per need new money. It is also time for prominent retailers, week to support free school meals? Surely it would be suppliers and manufacturers to take on a much bigger money well spent. I believe that the sugar tax was meant role and match fund Government investment in tackling for helping poor people to get food. child food insecurity. It is no good just ticking a virtue- signalling box on a taskforce—they should actually act. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; We should ring-fence the £340 million a year in revenue I will come to that later. I am asking not for huge from the tax on sugary drinks to cover the cost of these amounts of new money from the Treasury, but for the proposals. redistribution of the proceeds of the existing sugar tax, The sugar tax, as I mentioned, hits families on lower which disproportionately hits those on low incomes, incomes. Why should we not redistribute the revenue to back to those on lower incomes through free school meals fund these policy proposals, helping those same families and food programmes. facing food insecurity? Kellogg’s has found that hunger The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast a in the classroom costs the English economy at least 13.2% rise in unemployment, meaning that 336,500 more £5.2 million a year. All the evidence shows that if we working adults could face food insecurity.Now is the time feed children properly,we increase educational attainment for a long-term plan on combating food hunger from the and boost life chances. It is a no-brainer. I urge the Government, rather than a series of patchwork solutions. Government to set out a serious long-term plan to 1145 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1146

[Robert Halfon] strategic use of Opposition day debates, rather than have the partisan squabbling that we tend to see. I have combat childhood hunger, and—at least until we are had 10 years here now. I have yet to see a single over the coronavirus—keep free school meals going Opposition day debate illuminate an issue rather than through the winter and Easter holidays. obscure it further. I am not sure that it is the greatest use of the time that we have in this House—time that is Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): While I personally very, very restricted these days. rather like the new artistic screen displays, I have been For all that, the Government must move much more assured that technicians are on to it so that they do not quickly to fill what has now become a policy vacuum distract too much. I call Paul Maynard with a four-minute and turn the thinking that I know is occurring within limit. Departments into something much more concrete than they argue for—whether it be the spending review, the 5.28 pm comprehensive spending review, the autumn fiscal event, Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): or whatever season’s fiscal event it might be. The next As I said earlier, with over 6,000 children eligible for time we have big announcements I have big hopes and free school meals in my constituency, tackling food expectations of what the Government will deliver. poverty during the school holidays is more than important: it is the ultimate example in politics of where something 5.32 pm must be done. That is very different from saying that Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): anything should be done. We need to ensure that the right In 2010, the incoming Conservative Prime Minister support reaches the right children and, most importantly, promised to fix what he termed “broken Britain”. A in the right manner to have the impact required. decade later, we are having a debate about whether or I note the support that has already been provided, not children go hungry next week and I have to run a not least the £120 million extra spent over the critical food bank from my constituency office. When Labour summer holiday period. I note the £1,000 a year uplift left office, 40,000 were using food banks, last year it was in universal credit, as well as the £1 billion extra in local 1.4 million people, 7,000 of whom were in Southwark, housing allowance. It is worth noting that eligibility for including hundreds of working people. universal credit covers far more children than the much My constituency is at heart of London. It may be the narrower eligibility for free school meals does, and that capital city of the fifth wealthiest nation on the planet, is supporting the financial resilience of many families in but in some wards child poverty is as high as 40%. It my constituency at a time of real and growing insecurity was the coalition who scrapped the proper measurement as tier 3 impacts my hospitality sector so devastatingly. of poverty and then scrapped the previous Labour It none the less remains a source of deep, deep personal Government’s statutory commitment to end child poverty regret that advantage has not been taken in the intervening by this year—by 2020. Today’s debate shows the impact period since we were here discussing this back before of that downgrade of the need to tackle child poverty. It the summer for the Government to reach agreement was not just a downgrade, but a direct exacerbation of across the whole of Government—not just within individual the problem directly imposed by Government policies. Departments—to take a decision that could have obviated The Secretary State waxed lyrical about universal credit the need for this debate. My view is that we need a with its perverse and catastrophic five-week delay, but national and universal summer holiday activity and the Government’s own statistics show that, this year, food support stream to deal with the trials that have more than 200,000 people who applied for universal occurred. This would avoid any of the stigmatisation credit were paid after five weeks. A third of the applicants that I see in my constituency around eligibility for free got nothing and others have been forced to take out a school meals. It is essential that children retain a link loan from the Department for Work and Pensions, with an outside body during the longer summer break totalling now almost £1 billion. People sought help, but when child neglect as well as food poverty increase. all they were given was debt and no recourse to public Such a scheme would also diminish the risk of them funds, which was a condition imposed on some people, losing some of the learning that they have acquired but which leaves children growing up without access to during the academic year. the same support as the kid they were born next to at The policy chief of the Leader of the Opposition, St Thomas’s Hospital and sit next to at St Saviour’s Claire Ainsley, observed, in her previous role with the school. The Children’s Society tells us that there are Joseph Rowntree Foundation, that strong families able 175,000 children in that position. The Home Office to withstand the shocks of personal change and external refused to release the figure, even though the Prime pressures such as job loss are vital. She was clear, as I Minister promised that he would. I ask Members to am, that strong families matter. She also wants to see a contrast that pernicious national Government approach return of a sense of agency and autonomy to the lives of of state-sponsored food poverty with a willingness to some of the most disadvantaged in society—people help elsewhere. who have had their ability to make choices about how I am proud of the efforts of my local Labour council their lives are structured taken away from them by to tackle food poverty, providing free healthy school systems that they have not designed. I am talking about meals for all primary school children since 2011. There choices that we here take for granted. are 59 members of the Southwark Food Action Alliance, I am not convinced that the model on the Order including the council and faith groups such as the Paper today is the right one. I am not sure that it returns Salvation Army, and even private companies such as that sense of agency and autonomy that I seek. Politics Engie and British Land understand that there is a is not something that we do to people; it is something problem. There are also some great local charities such that we do with people. We need to make much more as the Central Southwark Community Hub under Felicia 1147 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1148

Boshorin’sbrilliant leadership, which has fed 2,300 families might be offered. Schools are now open and those in since April alone, Time & Talents has an amazing team receipt of free school meals will receive one at school. under Sarah Gibb and Pecan, the Southwark food Indeed, the proposal in the motion was rejected by the bank, which, last year, fed more than 2,400 children. Labour Government when it was made in 2007. This change might be desirable; it could make a difference. Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): My hon. Friend is But I suggest that any such proposal should be considered making an excellent point about how the voluntary not on its own, but as part of wider efforts to combat sector, individuals and local councils have stood up and poverty. filled the enormous gap left by the Government. I pay Weare definitely facing a period of economic hardship, tribute to the Lunch Bunch in Woodley in my constituency and the welfare system has rightly been strengthened. I of Reading East, to a range of other local charities, welcome, for example, the cash injection of £9,000 including Sadaka and Whitley Community Development million into our welfare system and I particularly welcome Association, and to Reading Borough Council for its the increase by £858,000 to Nottinghamshire as its part work. When will the Government stand up and play of the local authority welfare assistance fund. I further their part? welcome changes such as the national living wage and the raising of the income tax threshold so that those on Neil Coyle: I am glad that my hon. Friend’sconstituency the lowest incomes pay no income tax at all—policies of has organisations like those in mine. practical benefit to the poorest in society. Organisations have popped up in response to covid, I am a little unclear about how the Opposition’s such as the mutual aid groups, and existing organisations proposals will work in practice.Should schools be reopened such as Burgess Sports and Pembroke House have at a time when they would normally be closed? Is there extended their activities to help feed families. They all a desire among staff who have worked so hard recently deserve community gratitude, but they have worked so to take on this additional responsibility? What will be hard because the Government have created and then the additional costs and who will pick them up? ignored the need for help—a Government headed by a I also hear from the Opposition Benches the name of man who apparently cries himself to sleep because he is Marcus Rashford being invoked. But according to his now receiving only £150,000 a year. Well, boo hoo! tweet of 18 October, Mr Rashford is calling for school I want to end by talking about a real injustice. This meal provision in all holidays. Is it that the Opposition year, children have largely, thankfully, escaped the worst motion does not agree with Mr Rashford but is attempting health effects of covid, but they have not been spared to catch his coat tails or do the Opposition secretly the economic impact on their parents. In Bermondsey agree with him but are too coy to say it at the moment? and Old Southwark, unemployment has jumped by There are big questions to answer when it comes to 5,000, many parents are still prevented from working tackling poverty and I do not believe that changes and we face the cliff edge of the end of the furlough should be made lightly. But I do accept that there is far scheme, which has helped 24,000 people in my constituency more to do, including targeted interventions for those alone. Children feel the injustice of that situation. The most in need. For the reasons I have given, I regret that Government have a genuine chance to act today—mindful, I cannot support the motion in its unamended form I hope, of the 300,000-and-growing signatures on Marcus today. The Labour party might believe that the motion Rashford’s petition. scores a moral victory, but I believe that it fails to I will finish by quoting Charles Dickens, who, of course, address many fundamental issues, and the responsibility livedinSouthwark.Inthe1860s,hewrote“GreatExpectations”, for addressing those issues now falls to the Government in which he said: side of the House. “In the little world in which children have their existence, there is nothing so finely perceived and so finely felt as injustice.” Several hon. Members rose— It is injustice that we vote on today. MPs can allow an injustice to occur or we can vote to prevent an injustice Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): from being done to children, through no fault of their Order. I am sure that colleagues can see from the call list own. I know how I will be voting—I will be voting to that a large number of right hon. and hon. Members end injustice. wish to speak in this debate, so after the next speaker I will reduce the time limit to three minutes. 5.36 pm 5.40 pm Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): Free school meals have been part of the education system for more than a (Brent North) (Lab): This debate is century, and they are and have always been intended to about priorities and it is about shame—the shame that, be an additional support on school days in term time. in the fifth richest country in the world, 30% of our Lockdown disrupted education in a way that we probably children, which is 4.2 million of them, are living in have not seen since the war. The lines between school, poverty by the Government’s official statistics. Before home and education became blurred and, in those the summer, Marcus Rashford publicly shamed the extraordinary circumstances, it was right to temporarily Government and won free school meals over the holidays. amend the rules on school meal provision so that those He spoke from the heart about his experience as a child who would have received a meal, had school been open when he was dependent on food banks. in the usual way, did not miss out. The Prime Minister now says that it is not the role of But as I understand it, this motion is proposing schools to provide food during the holidays. Child something entirely different: it does not extend the hunger may not be a priority for him, but it is a priority system, but changes the very basis on which support for the headteachers of my schools in Brent who have 1149 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1150

[Barry Gardiner] spending another £10 million—million—on our children. This is about priorities and it is about shame. If those emailed me in the past 24 hours with their heartfelt are the Minister’s priorities, he should be ashamed. experiences. Perhaps they will shame the Prime Minister once again. 5.44 pm Rebecca Curtis, principal of ARK Elvin Academy, said: Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): I welcome “In Lockdown we had children calling the school explaining the opportunity to speak in this important debate, not they were hungry and asking what we could do—as soon as we just as the Member of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent were able to issue the FSM vouchers we were flooded with thanks Central or the chair of the all-party parliamentary from our children and their parents.The situation with unemployment group on the national food strategy, but as someone in Brent is clearly so much worse now so we are really concerned who is disappointed and saddened by the divisive nature about how we can support our pupils through the half term and of the debate. There is no need for today’s point-scoring the Christmas holidays”. motion—a sticking plaster, as the hon. Member for James Simmons, the head of Oliver Goldsmith Primary Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) called it—which School, observed: will no doubt cause unnecessary concern for our “Families with multiple children were able to purchase food in constituents. A consensus exists between hon. Members bigger quantities to take advantage of offers. With stress for on both sides of the House that one child hungry is one families trying to feed children greatly reduced, they described the too many. Any suggestion that an hon. Member would access to FSM as a lifeline.” think otherwise is deeply offensive. Mrs Mistry at Sudbury Primary School said that she The coronavirus restrictions introduced in March “strongly believes that FSM should be provided,” this year presented a challenge as the boundaries between but cautioned that, our public services and our private lives became blurred. “The government needs to implement a scheme that is easily This Government rightly listened to public opinion and manageable by schools”. acted by extending the provision of free school meals Karen Giles, the head at Barham Primary School, over the summer holidays at a time when we were facing made the point that, school closures. However, we are now in a very different position. With schools and classrooms now in session, “Many families have had their income cut by two thirds or more and many children are going hungry. Schools need Free it is only right that the exceptional measures introduced School Meals to be directly funded and the criteria for eligibility at the height of this pandemic come to an end. Instead, should be less stringent.” we must have a constructive debate considering the Mr Farrington, the head of the Village School, warned: longer-term and most sustainable solutions to tackling this problem. “There is very limited provision for pupils with disabilities over the holidays and we fear many won’t receive adequate food and support. We are also aware that parents, carers and families are Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): putting themselves in more debt and that providing for their My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does she children has had a large impact on the mental health of our agree with me that the very fact that we have reopened families.” schools—99% of state schools are now open—shows Finally, Raphael Moss, the head of Elsley Primary just how committed this Government are to tackling School, wrote that the child poverty, because saving our children’s education “government paying for FSM during holidays should be an and catching children up where they have fallen behind absolute minimum. What is really needed is to widen the eligibility is the No. 1 thing we can do to help bring people out of for children whose families are in receipt of Universal Credit as poverty? Marcus Rashford is campaigning for. At Elsley we had to set up a food bank to support some of our families. I cannot believe that Jo Gideon: I thank my hon. Friend, and I absolutely as a Head teacher in London in 2020 I am overseeing a food bank to ensure that our children don’t go hungry.It is truly unbelievable.” agree with what she says. Well, it is truly unbelievable, but the Government have There is no question about it: there is a problem, but the opportunity to put it right. headlines do not help these children and their families, and the sticking plaster this motion calls for would be It is not just about extending the voucher scheme, woefully inadequate.Before the pandemic, the Government however. Today, five senior children’s charities published commissioned an independent and comprehensive review an analysis showing that even before coronavirus, local of our entire food system from field to fork. The national authorities were struggling to fund the need for children’s food strategy review now being conducted is a top-to- services. They say: bottom examination, and it will publish long-term and “Those in the most deprived communities have suffered the sustainable recommendations that will inform Government greatest reductions in spending power. Funding for services for strategy on some of the biggest challenges to improving the 20% most deprived Local Authorities has fallen more than the health of our nation. As chairman of the APPG on twice as fast as for the least”. the national food strategy, I am determined to work My borough of Brent has lost £174 million since 2010. cross-party to develop support for more comprehensive, A recent National Audit Office report on bounce more fundamental and more long-term solutions. The back loans found that, to support business,the Government work of the group will be integral to developing these underwrote more than £36 billion of loans in the full proposals and it will help inform the White Paper. knowledge and acceptance that between 30% and 60% of Addressing the issues of child obesity, malnutrition and that would have to be written off as unrepayable or even food poverty is central to the levelling-up agenda. As fraudulent. That is between £11 billion and £20 billion with many aspects of the Government’s levelling-up of public money wasted, yet the Government baulk at agenda, outcomes cannot be delivered overnight. 1151 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1152

Wera Hobhouse: I am very grateful to the hon. Member More can be done and, of course, more is being done for giving way, because I think this is a very important by the Government. We have seen a £20 a week uplift to issue and she is talking about cross-party support. The universal credit, which will run through half-term, through fruit and veg scheme is such an important scheme. Christmas and into next year. Free school meals are Will she look at the campaign by Sustain of having a available for families with no recourse to public funds healthy piece of fruit or vegetable for every primary and, of course, extra money has been made available for schoolchild in state education? local authorities to provide welfare to families, including £500,000 for my local authority in Wiltshire, which is Jo Gideon: I thank the hon. Lady and, absolutely, we very welcome. No doubt more can be done, and I echo will be looking at this very broadly. That is the mandate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and and, quite frankly, I think that is what we should be Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) in calling for a comprehensive talking about today. strategy to support families and children during the As I was saying, addressing the issues of child obesity, school holidays. That is an absolutely pressing need, malnutrition and food poverty is completely central to and we need to get it right. the agenda and it cannot be done overnight. I stood on My second point of agreement with the shadow a platform that a society is best judged by how it looks Secretary of State is on putting aside party politics. She after its most vulnerable. This Government have shown then went on to make one of the most partisan speeches throughout this pandemic that they are committed to I have heard in my short time in this House, with supporting the most vulnerable in our society. The references to test and trace, consultants and even the Prime temporary and exceptional measure put in place at the Minister’s personal finances, which is pretty unnecessary. height of this pandemic is not a sustainable solution. I will talk quickly about the motivation behind this Rather than the Opposition bringing this same old debate and of Members in this House. I hope we can question to the House every time we face a school agree that rudeness of the sort we saw earlier from the holiday, they should work with us towards a long-term Opposition Front Bench is completely unacceptable. I solution and a wraparound-support approach for low- do not think robust language is unacceptable. It is quite income families. appropriate to use robust language—we should not For the reasons I have outlined, I will not be supporting bleed these debates of any emotion—and it is completely this motion, but instead I call on those who truly wish acceptable and understandable if Opposition Members to tackle the issue of food poverty long term to work want to attack the Government on their competence. with me in developing solutions for the benefit of those I do not agree, but it is fair enough to attack us on our children and families we all seek to help. judgment. Obviously, mistakes get made, which is understandable; Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): but to attack us on our motivation and our morality, as Order. May I gently point out that taking interventions we repeatedly hear from Opposition Members,is completely has now meant that one fewer person can speak who unacceptable, because it demeans this House and the had put in to speak and who has been sitting here all quality of debate. It does not serve the people of this afternoon? If colleagues want to take interventions, I country. I ask Opposition Members to desist from that, suggest that they take them out of the three minutes to keep the debate on policy and to stop the trolling that I have allocated, because taking five minutes means they are engaged in at the moment. that somebody else is probably unlikely to get into the debate. 5.52 pm 5.49 pm Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): Listening to all Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): I want to agree with the contributions, it is clear we are all committed to two things that the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. ensuring that no child should go hungry, that no child Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), said should worry about when they are going to eat next and in her speech. The first is that no child should go that children have the support and opportunities to hungry in this country. That is something that we all succeed. agree with in this House. The question is how we can Even before covid-19 infected our lives,this Government’s ensure that outcome? support for children was significant: delivering a world-class Before I was a Member of this House, I ran a charity education; ensuring children have the skills to succeed; working with children and families at risk, and I did a and ensuring children have a nutritious lunchtime meal lot of work with schools, and I recognise that there is an to support their learning, concentration and ability to important role for schools to facilitate social support achieve at school. The support during coronavirus has for children and families. They can play an important been unprecedented. The Government ensured that no role as a hub in the local community, as has been said, child was left behind while schools were closed, by but it is not appropriate to make them a provider of providing substantial additional funding to eligible families welfare themselves. As we have heard from the shadow through the national voucher scheme. Secretary of State, there is a possibility of the proposal The total amount of supermarket vouchers redeemed becoming permanent. That is not an appropriate use of by families was over £380 million. Alongside the income- schools. Now that schools are open again, it is not protection schemes, which have so far protected 12 million appropriate to make them welfare providers. That is a jobs, the Government have provided £63 million in role for the welfare system. I pay tribute to the DWP welfare assistance funding to local authorities to support and to the Ministers who have overseen universal credit. families with urgent needs. That system has been a great success, and without it we I will take no lectures from a Labour party that wants would be in a very serious way, That is the appropriate a full national lockdown, which would be disastrous—a mechanism for delivering welfare to families. party that will not work collectively at a time of national 1153 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1154

[Suzanne Webb] The fact that we have to hold this debate today, and that we have to ask the Government for such a vital crisis; a party that politicises a national crisis; a party provision as free school meals, is quite frankly shocking that, in this great place, calls my hon. Friend the Member given the scale of food insecurity in this country right for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) scum; a now. Ensuring that millions of our fellow citizens do party that itself, when in government, refused to extend not go hungry is the Government’s moral duty, and it free school meals into the holidays. should be a legal right. As I did in my Westminster Hall We are in danger of viewing everything through the debate this morning, I call on the Government to introduce lens of covid-19. We need to look beyond that. How we the right to food into UK legislation. That would oblige treat our most vulnerable reflects on all of us, as does the Government to make sure that people do not ever ensuring that the ladder of opportunity is one that go hungry and would mean that measures such as the everyone can climb. We all have an important collective five-week universal credit delay or the refusal to provide role in helping to address the underlying causes of child free school meals would be subject to legal challenge. poverty. A rounded approach to tackling child poverty The Prime Minister would not be able to refuse to will take children from their earliest years through provide meals to children living in poverty. schooling to adolescence and adult life, and not just I will end by urging the Minister to think again and react when there is a crisis. Every family turned around to support this motion. means more children in school and more parents in work. 5.57 pm If there is a vote, as I am sure there will be, I will not Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): I strongly be voting for a Labour motion that is just one more endorse what the Secretary of State has already said action by those intent on undermining and derailing the and commend the support for children and their families response to this national crisis with yet another strapline. that he outlined. Free school meals have only ever been Instead, I will support a Government who I know are intended to support pupils during term time and it is determined and committed to ensuring that families important that that arrangement returns. continue to have the support that they need, and not On the proposals made today, why did colleagues on just during this crisis—a Government who listen and, I the Opposition Benches never implement any of them am sure, will take on board all comments made this under the Labour Government? We need sensible policies evening on tackling child poverty. This is a Government to combat child poverty, not policy by public relations. who have during this crisis delivered an unprecedented As a former teacher and head, I have seen many cases in set of measures to ensure that no child was left behind which children are the victims of neglect, and the extra while schools were closed—a Government who will care that we can provide through schools is sometimes always provide a safety net, and not just at a time of life-changing, but it will never replace the role of the national crisis, to ensure that those who need it most are parent. When did it suddenly become controversial to supported unquestionably. suggest that the primary responsibility for a child’s welfare should lie with their parents, or to suggest that 5.55 pm people do not always spend vouchers in the way they are intended? Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab): I pay tribute to Marcus Rashford for his incredible campaigning on I will share my own experience. My parents separated this issue, which meant that 1.3 million children were when I was 11 years old and at one point I had to share able to receive meals over the summer. The unbelievable a room with my father at my grandmother’s house. I prospect of a Manchester United player having his name qualified for free school meals, so I have experienced sung on my beloved Spion Kop at Anfield would now this myself. However, I never considered myself to be a not be beyond the realms of possibility. I also thank my child with a single parent: both parents cared, both hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell- parents worked and both parents did their best to Buck) for her School Breakfast Bill and her tireless provide for their children. Like many, they realised that efforts to get it through Parliament. parental responsibility does not end when a relationship does. The crisis of food insecurity is having a devastating We must focus on breaking the cycle in which the first impact in my community. In August, 2.3 million children reaction is to look to the state. It is a vicious circle. We were living in households that experienced food insecurity. need to support families with early intervention and In Liverpool, West Derby, figures show that even before help with things such as budgeting and employment. the covid-19 pandemic 37% of children were living in Collect and pay arrangements with the Child Maintenance poverty. If the Government do not provide free school Service show that only 60% of parents make payments— meals over the school holidays, 4,155 children in Liverpool, they are not necessarily adequate payments, as the West Derby will be at risk of going hungry in the middle figures are for people who pay anything at all—which of winter and in the middle of a pandemic. leaves 40% who pay nothing. That is a disgrace. There As someone who received free school meals as a child are parents out there doing their best to manage under and who serves as a school governor in one of the most very difficult circumstances, while there are fathers and, impoverished wards in the country, I can say from indeed, mothers who disappear and think they can be first-hand experience that the difference that passing absolved of all responsibility. This is not just immoral this motion would make to struggling families cannot but means that many hard-working parents have to be quantified in sheer monetary terms. The mental struggle and support their children on their own. The pressures of worrying about whether your child will welfare state is rightly there as a safety net, but it is not have a hot meal a day should not be experienced by any a replacement. I have spoken to parents in Bassetlaw citizen in our nation. who have been left without support for years. We need 1155 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1156 to track these people down and make them contribute long-term achievements of this Government. Have we towards their children’s welfare. Where is the slick PR solved everything? No. Could we all—individuals, campaign encouraging absent parents to take some communities,millionairecelebritiesandsupermarkets—have responsibility for their children? I do not believe in a role to play in doing more? Yes. But to pretend that nationalising children. Instead, we need to get back to further increasing the role of the state directly in feeding the idea of taking responsibility.That means less celebrity children is a solution is mistaken. Yet again, it sends out virtue signalling on Twitter by proxy and more action to the signal that our communities do not have to look tackle the real causes of child poverty. after each other. Again and again, we reinforce the idea that taking 6 pm money off people through the tax system to support Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): The Secretary of people less well off is always good, but asking people to State gave us a spectacular display of number theatre: choose to be generous and support other people in their millions for this, millions for that, billions for this, communities in need is somehow bad. I want to live in a billions for that. There is no doubt that the Government society where our local communities look out for each are facing unprecedented demands for money from all other and provide support to those who are less well off. sorts of directions, but I simply do not understand why I am incredibly proud of the hard work and effort put in they draw the red line at hungry children. by local charities in my constituency that, with help I feel ashamed to be an MP today and I feel ashamed from donations and support from local people and of this debate. While we throw mud at each other from local businesses, support those in need. The Government the security of these plush green Benches, there are do have a role to play, but our communities play a role, millions of families who do not know where they are too. What is so wrong with that? going to find the £30 or £40 to feed their kids next week in half-term and have no idea at all where the money is Danny Kruger: Does my hon. Friend agree that the going to come from to feed their kids at Christmas. charities he is talking about are able to be much more Even if we agreed the extension of free school meals in targeted, precise, sensitive and generous than a blanket school holidays until Easter, there would still be families state system? who struggle. There would still be families claiming universal credit who would not qualify. We need to look Dr Mullan: Indeed, and they tend to provide support again at the eligibility criteria. in a wraparound way. Rather than just giving out a meal, it tends to be part of a broader package of support for a Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): family that tackles things in the longer term. Does my hon. Friend feel, as I do, that the Government could learn a lot from the Welsh Government, where Why is it that when the state tackles a problem using Kirsty Williams, the Liberal Democrat Education Minister, taxpayers’ money—our money—indirectly, it is always extended free school meals, and that this should actually the right solution, but when people choose to help solve just be a no-brainer today? a problem themselves directly, it must be a reflection of some kind of failure? The reality is that those on the Daisy Cooper: My hon. Friend anticipates my very Opposition Benches are advocating for us to live in a next point. It was the Liberal party that first introduced world where the state caters to every need and every free school meals, in 1906. It was the Liberal Democrats challenge and mitigates every consequence. That is the in Government who introduced free school meals for logical conclusion of what they argue. That is not the 1.89 million infant children. In Wales last week, Liberal kind of country I want to live in, where generosity of Democrat Education Minister Kirsty Williams led the spirit, kindness and support for our neighbours are way by agreeing to extend the scheme until Easter next somehow surplus to requirements. year. Scotland has followed suit. Now it is England’s I ask high-profile campaigners on this issue to urge turn. Why should children in England go hungry when their hundreds of thousands of social media followers, children in Scotland and Wales will have access to who are signing petitions and retweeting, to put an support in the coming holidays? equal amount of energy into encouraging their friends There are colleagues on the Government Benches and family to volunteer for charities, to mentor young who have called on us to work with them on a long-term people, to help parents who are struggling and to donate food strategy. We are happy to do that. This debate money to local organisations to fight poverty. I want today does not stop us looking at long-term solutions. voices such as Courtney Lawes to be heard as widely as But half-term starts in just a few days’ time, and we need Marcus Rashford’s. The combined wealth of some of to give immediate reassurance to a nation of families the individuals and businesses who think this can all be who are lying awake at night. I urge every Member of fixed with money means that they are very well placed this House to please consider providing that immediate to make that change themselves if they think it is reassurance tonight. necessary. Do not tell me these problems only start and end with 6.3 pm Government. The number of people living in relative Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I poverty in the UK has been around 14 million for welcome this debate today, as it gives us an opportunity decades. I listened to the hon. Member for Brent North to have a discussion on challenging issues around poverty (Barry Gardiner) throwing accusations such as “shameful” in our constituencies. The causes of poverty are not at us. He is no longer in his place, but where was he simple. What is most important is sustainable solutions. under the Labour Government, when there were also Increases in the living wage, increases in the income tax millions of people, including children, living in poverty? threshold, decreases in absolute poverty and income It was not “shameful” then, but apparently when it is inequality in the long term—those are the sustainable, the Conservative Government, it becomes shameful. 1157 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1158

[Dr Mullan] evidence in our decision making. Both of those things have been conspicuously lacking in the Opposition’s This Government have acted, and they have played a approach tonight. role. Yes, we need to keep these issues at the heart of the Let us consider for a moment the circumstances of Government’s agenda, and yes, we need to understand the most vulnerable children in our country. There are the impact of poverty and combat it, but our whole around 400,000 children on the statutory children in society has a role to play in contributing and helping need registers of our local authorities and 52,300 children one another to build lives, livelihoods and families and on child protection plans. We all recognise that they are provide long-term solutions to these challenges. the most vulnerable, and they are in a system that we all recognise is facing a significant funding gap. What does 6.7 pm it say about the Opposition’s priorities that all their Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): I interests are simply swept aside in favour of spending put on record my thanks to Marcus Rashford for an taxpayers’ money to curry favour with celebrity status, excellent goal last night, but also for supporting this wealth and power? I have no doubt that Mr Rashford is fantastic campaign. In this House, we need to realise an expert in his own experience, but we should not what we are facing. We are in denial. Our economy has forget that the experiences he so movingly described contracted by 9% since March. In my constituency, took place under a Labour Government—a Labour unemployment has gone up by 182%. Even in one of Government then supposedly at the peak of their powers my very affluent wards in Muswell Hill, there has been a in tackling child poverty in this country. So if there was 300% increase in unemployment since the spring. a lamentable failure, it was a lamentable failure of the We are dealing with the biggest recession since the Labour party when in Government. first world war, so some of the arguments today pale The beneficiaries of the earlier free school meals into insignificance when compared with the enormity decision, which, of course, went way beyond anything of the economic challenge we face. It is therefore correct ever done by Labour, at least had recourse to a variety to look at quick measures such as this, when normally of support. Wehad universal credit, jobseeker’sallowance, we would take a strategic view, go through a Select emergency support from local authorities and even, Committee, get evidence and so on. This is an opportunity dare I mention it, food banks. But we talk about the to act quickly. While we are at it, let us have some good need to tackle food poverty in this country, and of and high-level sports coaching, some arts and crafts, course, this debate is happening at a time when the cost and some of the other things that our families rely on of food to British families is at a historic low—8% of desperately over the half-term break and also during household expenditure on average, down from 35% in the Christmas holidays. 1957, when my father was the age that my son is today. Our families are under enormous pressure, whether If that is not a strategy to tackle food poverty, I do not that is before school at breakfast—I am a big believer in know what is. breakfast clubs—or after school, because some shifts I know that the Opposition do not like to waste a carry on after 3 o’clock and need to be worked. Let us good crisis, but this House should be ashamed if we bring back lots of clubs, because many have stopped allow ourselves today to be pushed into setting aside the because of coronavirus. Also, let us look at increasing circumstances of the most needy. Neglect, domestic the eligibility. I introduced universal free meals for all violence, addiction and family breakdown are the major children in primary school when I was a borough leader. drivers of that need. They must not be put aside in I did that because I felt it was the one public health favour of currying the favour of the wealthy and powerful measure that would make a huge difference. That is not and celebrities. the subject of today’s debate, but it did bring up everyone in the same way and meant every child had a hot meal. 6.12 pm The youngsters learned how to use a knife and fork and how to have a conversation with their teachers. Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): Any debate discussing An analysis of packed lunches shows that custard children is rightly emotive. We must protect them, we creams and Diet Coke are the most popular thing for must nurture them and we must support them. The kids who have packed lunches. In all sorts of different question is: how do we do that most effectively? In this families, that tends to be the choice, whereas a hot meal debate, we have heard highly charged arguments, which, in the middle of the day increases good behaviour and if listened to in isolation, without reference to the helps after school. If we can bring families with no actual facts, would cause any of us to fear for the next recourse to public funds into the net, it would be generation. But as my namesake, the philosopher Bertrand fantastic, because it would mean no more popping into Russell, once stated: the office for someone to explain their circumstances to “The degree of one’s emotions varies inversely with one’s a judgmental secretary or another judgmental person knowledge of the facts.” who might be opposite them. Some parents have shared The real facts are that throughout this pandemic, this with me that they feel a sense of stigma going on and off Government have been actively supporting vulnerable school meals. I will stop there, Madam Deputy Speaker, children, doing the right thing at the right time. At the so that we can hear more speakers. start of the pandemic, it was right that unprecedented measures on free school meals were taken. In that time, 6.9 pm children’s lives were blurred between home and school, David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) but now schools have opened back up fully to all pupils (Con): I doubt anyone in the Chamber tonight would and more targeted support can be provided. disagree that we must focus the resources of the nation Let us not forget the facts of this debate. First, we are on those who need help most, but whatever the question not ending free school meals. We are returning to the is before us, it requires a degree of objectivity and way that it has always been under successive Governments, 1159 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1160 yet we are also providing an ever more focused approach Of course the Government must continue to fund free to support, so that we can reach every child who needs a school meal provision in every school holiday between helping hand. I am conscious in these debates—especially October half-term and Easter 2021 and extend the offer ones such as this—that there can be number fatigue, of free school meals to all families receiving universal with statistics and billions thrown here and there, but credit and those with no recourse to public funds. the facts are the facts, and it is this Government who However, we have to do more than that in the face of have increased universal credit by £1,000 this year for this crisis, with rising costs and unemployment, and families and delivered £63 million in additional funding millions of families falling into poverty. for councils to provide emergency assistance to families with food essentials and meals. We strengthened welfare 6.18 pm support, adding £9 billion into the welfare system this year, not to mention the billions in furlough schemes, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is a business support and a multitude of other packages to pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Blaydon (Liz charities, individuals and families to help them to put Twist). We spent time on the Select Committee on food on tables across the country. I could go on, but the Housing, Communities and Local Government, and we facts are the facts. To round off my speech with one agree on much. I also agreed with much that the shadow more quotation, as Aldous Huxley once stated: Secretary of State said earlier. She was my predecessor as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” poverty, so we share many of the concerns that have The facts are that the Government have been ensuring been raised in this debate. targeted support for vulnerable children, both now and However, I listened very carefully to what the shadow into the future, ensuring that the right support reaches Secretary of State said, and at one point she said—I the right children at the right time. hope I do not get this wrong—that it is the Government’s job to make sure children do not go hungry. I differ 6.15 pm there, and I think lots of my constituents differ there too, because they would be appalled by the prospect of Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): This is a hugely important the Government interfering in their daily lives to make debate for many families in my constituency and across sure their children did not go hungry. Many in this the north-east and the country.I applaud Marcus Rashford House will be aware that I had a slight fall-out in the for his hard work in raising this issue. Data from the Twittersphere with Marcus Rashford a couple of weeks North East Child Poverty Commission shows that almost ago on this issue, which is why I wanted to speak today. 93,000 children and young people across the north-east When somebody said something similar to me on Twitter, were in receipt of free school meals in the last academic I simply tweeted: year, 2019-20. However, these figures do not take into “Where they can, it’s a parent’s job to feed their children”. account the full impact—indeed, hardly any of the impact—of covid-19 on family incomes and the number I noticed that the shadow Secretary of State did not of families who have registered for such support in include the caveat “where they can”, and that is the key recent weeks. difference here. It needs— In fact, the Food Foundation recently published an Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): Oh, for God’s sake. estimate that more than 900,000 children have signed up for free school meals for the first time this year. Over Kevin Hollinrake: That is what she did not say, and it 50% of those using Trussell Trust food banks at the is a very important principle. start of the pandemic had never needed help from a The other important principle is whether the measures food bank before, and families with children were the that the shadow Secretary of State is proposing are hardest hit, accounting for nearly two in five of the temporary or permanent. Temporary measures in this households needing to use a food bank. These are place tend to become permanent. These are exceptional staggering numbers. We talked earlier about universal times, but I can see the outcry in a year or two when we credit being a help, but so many people are finding for try to reverse these measures: “Oh my God, you can’t the first time that universal credit is really poor and does do that because of the impact it might have on people.” not help those most in need, especially those applying These measures may well then become permanent, and, for the first time, who might have expected help. if we are honest, what would that mean? It would mean We know from the North East Child Poverty increasing the size of the welfare state and therefore Commission’s figures that more than one in three children increasing taxation. and young people grow up in poverty in the north-east Even before covid, we were running a deficit and had and that the north-east has the highest proportion of done for the vast majority of the last 40 years, so such a children in receipt of free school meals. In Gateshead, measure would mean higher taxes. The alternative, of there were 6,135 students in receipt of free school meals course, is that we spread a load of welfare among many before the covid-19 pandemic. That is 20% of pupils, more people, which will mean that less will go to the and that number cannot help but go up in the coming people who are really in need. That is the principle we months, as we see the impact of job losses, short-time are talking about—whether we are going to target these working and so forth. Weknow that the covid-19 pandemic resources to the people who are really, really in need or will have a huge impact. whether we are going to spread it more widely. We need During the summer, I had the privilege of visiting to include the taxpayer in this conversation and say to some of the holiday hunger schemes and activities in them, “If we are going to increase welfare, you are my constituency. I saw at first hand how well appreciated going to carry the burden.” If we are going to say that the free lunches and free school meals were in those people, we should also be saying to people that we are activities, so I know the difference that they can make. going to clamp down on tax avoidance, which is a stain 1161 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1162

[Kevin Hollinrake] The initial supermarket voucher scheme was set up in March and was not an attempt to solve child poverty, on the way we handle our tax system. Whether it is which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes multinationals or individuals in the UK who try to (Danny Kruger) rightly pointed out, is a matter for the avoid tax through things such as image rights, we need welfare system, not our schools. No one denies that to ensure that people pay a fair share of their taxes. child, and therefore family, poverty does exist, or that we should be doing everything that we can to bring 6.21 pm people out of it—I will talk about that more in a CharlotteNichols(WarringtonNorth)(Lab):Coronavirus moment—but the initial voucher scheme was a practical, has blown away many of the old orthodoxies in politics, administrative response to the unforeseen necessity of and this offensive idea of the undeserving poor—feckless closing schools for an indeterminate period. No one parents unwilling to take responsibility—to which the suggested at the time that it was anything other than a Conservative party seems so ideologically committed temporary measure. just does not hold water. The universal credit system The truth is that far too many families do not have was barely fit for purpose before covid, but it is now on enough. They do not have enough money, enough food its knees, with parents being made redundant, their or enough help. There are many and complex reasons hours slashed, and the support system set up for businesses for that, and, sadly, to suggest that supermarket vouchers forced to close, leaving people on as little as 66% of the will somehow fix it is like putting a sticking plaster on a national minimum wage. Others, including those excluded serious wound. But what will work? When the welfare because they were new starters, have been left with state was launched, the vision was to provide a safety nothing. If parents could pull themselves up by their net for those who found themselves out of work and to bootstraps before, they certainly cannot now—and their help them get back on their feet, but now we find children cannot either. ourselves in a position—pre-covid, anyway—where far I pay tribute to the work of Warrington food bank, more of our welfare budget is spent on those in work the Station House food bank, Friends of Meadowside, than those out of work. In other words, at present, and the numerous other voluntary groups across our work is not always the route out of poverty that it community in Warrington North, who are doing all should be. they can to ensure that no child goes hungry. But there How do we help people into better paid and secure are almost 4,500 children eligible for free school meals work, and away from the addiction, the family breakdown in my constituency, many of whom are vulnerable to and the social issues that all too often trap people in falling through the cracks. These are families in every poverty? Education is part of the answer, and I commend single ward of my constituency, from the inner wards, my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary for the which have the highest rates of deprivation, to the catch-up schemes, but research shows that the barriers affluent suburbs. All of them have been using food to good work are not just material or educational banks—every single ward. The Government can make a poverty; lack of social, relational capital prevents many choice today to strengthen that safety net and ensure people from finding a way out. that no child in Warrington goes hungry. There is no time for me to say more, but I recommend In financial terms, this is a small ask, but it is a vital that hon. Members read the work of Hilary Cottam, one in these exceptional times. If the Government can whose book “Radical Help” proposes a very radical find the money to pay Serco, they can find the money to relational community approach to tackling poverty. ensure that the most vulnerable children in our communities These are the kinds of things that we should be debating are not going to bed hungry. in this House. Child poverty is a serious and complex issue; we need serious and complex solutions. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I call Miriam Cates, who may wish to make a slightly Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): shorter speech given that she made quite a long intervention Well, there we are. I call Mary Kelly Foy. earlier; that would allow others to come in. 6.25 pm 6.22 pm Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): As someone I will do my best, Madam Deputy Speaker. who personally benefited from free school meals as a The motion calls on the Government to extend free child, I congratulate Marcus Rashford on his vital and school meal provision throughout the school holidays selfless campaign. Between him and Andy Burnham, I until Easter next year. Although on the Order Paper do not think the Prime Minister will be setting foot in this is a debate about free school meals, even if the Manchester any time soon. motion passes, the result will not be more free school In a previous debate, I said that the Government’s meals. To risk stating the obvious, during the holidays initial U-turn on free school meals was a case of them schools are closed, and they do not provide physical having to be embarrassed into feeding hungry children. meals—free or otherwise—to any child. Let us be clear: Well, it looks like the Conservatives have moved beyond what is really being called for here is an extension to the that. They truly have no shame. What astounds me most voucher scheme that would start in half-term next week about this Government’s approach is the complete lack by giving supermarket vouchers to parents of children of responsibility. They are acting like child poverty is who are eligible. That is not the same as providing a purely the fault of the parents and ignoring the leading daily nutritious meal to a child in a school environment cause of child poverty: Tory Governments. to help them get the most out of their education. It is It is a fact that this Government have increased important to recognise the difference between free school poverty. Before this pandemic, their own Social Mobility meals and what they are for, and supermarket vouchers. Commission stated that there are 600,000 more children 1163 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1164 living in poverty in 2020 than there were in 2012. They believe that extending free school meals over the school cannot blame Labour for that. And let us not ignore the holidays for the period stated in the motion is the very reality that holiday hunger hits the north-east the hardest. least this Government can do to assist families in need. Not only does the region have the highest proportion of More needs to be done to ensure that no child in my children in receipt of free school meals, but that number constituency or the country at large goes to school is rising at a faster rate than anywhere else. So much for hungry. I want to take this opportunity to raise the levelling up. recommendations made by School Food Matters, the The coronavirus pandemic and the Government’s Food Foundation and many others regarding free school incompetent handling of it will only make this crisis meals. I believe it is necessary to extend free school worse. Thousands of people will be experiencing poverty meals for all children in families receiving universal for the first time, through absolutely no fault of their credit and to extend the holiday activity and food own, yet the Government are going to deny them this programme to all areas in England, to ensure that small bit of help. Even if we ignore the argument that summer holiday support is available to all children this Government have increased poverty over the last receiving free school meals. The Healthy Start vouchers decade, it still does not change the fact that children do also need to be increased. not choose to be born into poverty and they do not choose to go hungry during the holidays. Poverty is 6.31 pm never the child’s fault. To punish them is as cruel as it is illogical. Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): Unfortunately, I will have to start by referring to the The Government believe that it is right to feed these comments made by the hon. Member for City of Durham children when they are at school, so why not during the (Mary Kelly Foy). I have high regard for her, but I holidays? Poverty does not stop at the end of term. Are found her moral superiority quite distressing. I spent the Government planning to let impoverished children eight years of my life working as a secondary school go hungry in order to teach them some sort of perverse teacher, the overwhelming majority of which was as a lesson—to show them the realities of sink-or-swim head of year, working in some of the most disadvantaged Conservatism? If, as some Members claim, it is a question parts of London and Birmingham, seeing the impact of of not being able to afford to fund these £15-a-week child poverty and child hunger but also of not having a lunches, I am sure we can make savings somewhere else, stable family and good role models and of crime and such as by cutting some of the £7,000 a day that drugs in a local community. I refuse to be lectured by consultants are being paid for working on the failing Opposition Members who have not walked in my shoes track and trace system. Personally, I would rather put and seen the things that I have had to witness in my food into the stomach of a hungry child than money career. I hope the hon. Lady will reflect on those remarks. into the pockets of wealthy consultants. [Interruption.] I will not be lectured by those on the No matter how they try to justify it, if Government shadow Front Bench who have not worked in the schools Members oppose the motion, they will be voting to let I have worked in or seen the things I have seen. I refuse children go hungry, for no other reason than that they to be shouted down and treated in this manner. just do not care. Let us be very clear about this extension. This is not a one-off extension—this is about free school meals being 6.28 pm permanently provided outside of school time. First, Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): Over who is going to fund that—the school or the state? Do the last decade, we have seen a shocking increase in schools provide the meals on-site, or do they have to poverty levels in the UK. In particular, child poverty deliver food parcels? If so, do they have to renegotiate has risen significantly and should be seen in no uncertain their contracts? Have the unions supported that? Is terms as a national crisis. The causes of this increase there understanding of the voucher system, and are in poverty are clear: a decade of damaging policies they being used in an appropriate and responsible manner? implemented by Conservative Governments who have I have had supermarkets, parents and schools contact taken income away from the poorest in our society and me directly to say that they have grave concerns about redistributed wealth upwards, making the rich even the way in which those vouchers have been used. richer. This Government have done remarkable work on The scourge of child poverty is a disgrace to a society holiday programmes. I want to mention the Hubb as rich as ours. In my constituency alone, 15,335 children Foundation and its “Ay Up Duck” campaign, run by live in poverty, and many of those children depend on Carol Shanahan, the co-owner of Port Vale football free school meals so that they can go to school and club, and Adam Yates, a former professional footballer. receive the education they deserve. Across Birmingham, The Hubb Foundation is providing thousands of meals the number of pupils who rely on free school meals is across the city and providing hundreds of children and higher than in many parts of the country, and that is parents with the opportunity to participate in activities due in no small part to the shocking levels of poverty that not only improve their physical and mental health that many families currently find themselves in. It is but ensure that they are fed and that the local authority obvious that such poverty and the subsequent support and schools have health and wellbeing checks done on a needed by those families does not come to an end when regular basis over the holiday. the school term ends. If we were to have a serious discussion about how to These measures are essential to families in my tackle this issue, one way to do that is to reduce the constituency who are facing the full force of lost income summer holiday from six weeks to four weeks. Childcare due to the pandemic and the resultant recession. I have costs £133 a week on average. If we redistributed those received a great many messages from constituents urging two weeks, with one in the October half-term and one in action on free school meals. I, along with my constituents, the May half-term, we could bring down the cost of the 1165 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1166

[Jonathan Gullis] I am saddened that we are talking about free school meals as if they are a luxury. They are not a luxury. I summer holiday for parents and help them to be better was on free school meals—[Interruption.] No, it is not able to access the food that they need. Free school meals an option; let’s be honest. I was on free school meals, are indeed important, but it is the role of the school to and I know how important they were for me and my educate, not to be the welfare state. family. On many mornings I had to rush into school, and I was provided with breakfast, lunch and a snack. 6.34 pm That gave me the opportunity to focus, study and learn, Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): It is not often that I and to be here today. So I am really saddened that this is find myself really struggling to follow an hon. Member, what we are here to talk about. but I am struggling to follow the hon. Member for What kind of nation will we be if a single mother Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis). Let me tell from Spon End in my constituency, who struggles to him, and his Government. He is not taking lectures make ends meet due to the minimum wage, has to from the Labour Benches. But we have experience of decide between paying an electricity bill, or paying her poverty.Tell that to the 5,500 children in my constituency rent, and whether her family will have dinner that night? who are eligible for free school meals. Tell that to the What kind of nation do we want to be, if elected Members Marcus Rashfords of this world who grew up in poverty. of this House, who are in Parliament to represent their Tell me, who grew up in poverty. Tell Labour Members constituents and ensure they have the best opportunities who have experienced it at first hand. in life, can be so callous as to treat the ability of hard- Jonathan Gullis rose— working families from deprived areas to feed their children as such a luxury? Food is not a luxury.It is a basic human Naz Shah: I will not take any lectures, and nor will I right that children should never be hungry, whether at take any interventions, when it comes to children in school or at home. poverty, from the Conservative Benches. I pay tribute to Feeding Coventry and Coventry food Yesterday, I spoke to the Trussell Trust and the truth bank, which do a phenomenal job to ensure that all the is that we expect a 9% increase in children and families families in Coventry are not abandoned and are given starting to use food banks, just because of the £20 cut to the food that they need to survive. However, it should universal credit. In addition—wow; it is not often that I not be up to charities such as that; it is the responsibility get this angry in the House—more than 16,000 of my of the Government to ensure that families have the food constituents are on universal credit, yet Members on they need to allow them to be able to make a positive the Conservative Benches are happy to cut another £20 contribution to the society in which we live. from that. Only 31% of people in my constituency are According to Action for Children, over 6,700 children taking up the furlough scheme, and many of them will in Coventry live in poverty after housing costs are taken be thrown into poverty when that comes to an end. That into account. Approximately 2,789 children receive free figure of 16,000—the number of families affected—will school meals in my constituency. go up day by day, as the virus hits us and people have to make a choice between putting food on their table and We should not be here deciding on whether there going to work, and having to isolate for 14 days. That is should be a vote on this: free school meals should never what real poverty is. I can speak from experience, having be something that is put to a vote. It should be something experienced poverty, so I will take no lectures from the that we work together on across these Benches, saying, hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North. “Let us provide opportunity for our constituents, let us give them the ability to achieve their full potential, and This is about morality. This is not a debate about let them be able not to worry about food with the issues whether it is food bank vouchers or free school meals; that are going on.”They are already dealing with covid-19 this is a debate about poverty. Which bit of that do —they do not need to deal with whether or not they are Members of the House not get? This is about children going to have food. I really do hope that Government who will not have a meal, or the sufficient nutrients to Members will sit down, look deep into their hearts, and go to school or to go about their daily lives and be able vote for their constituents to ensure that they are not to learn. That should be their God-given right. That is left behind. what every child in the country should have. We are a rich nation. If people live from food banks, what is the 6.40 pm measure of our country? We have kids and families on food banks. Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): It is a great honour Let me thank all those in my constituency who volunteer to follow such passionate and righteous indignation at food banks, and who continuously try to plug the gap from my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford West that 10 years of austerity and the failures of Members (Naz Shah) and for Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi) on the Conservative Benches and this Government, in representing their constituents so powerfully. have left for people in my constituency and up and It should shame all of us in this House that amidst down the country. Shame on this Government! Shame one of the greatest economic and health crises in modern on the people who are going to walk through that history we are having to vote to force this Government Lobby today and vote this motion down. I know exactly to extend free school meals over the holidays just so that where my moral compass is, and it is on the right side children do not go hungry at Christmas. We may well be of history. living in unprecedented times, but we are still the fifth richest country in the world and are more than capable 6.37 pm of supporting the most vulnerable in our society. Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): I We are in the middle of the most severe crisis our completely agree with everything that my hon. Friend nation has faced since it stood and fought for democracy the Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah) has just said. and sovereignty in world war two. There can be no half 1167 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1168 measures as our nation pulls together to get us through the employment rate will rise above its previous forecast a dark hour indeed. This country is so sick and tired of of 7.5% this year, and food bank use in this country is asking the Government to do the right thing. Time and expected to be 51% higher this winter than last. Almost again, this Government are showing our nation that 1 million of the children who are set to lose their free they are simply not fit to govern during a time of crisis, school meals next week are in areas that are subject to nor do they prioritise the interests of ordinary working tier 1 and tier 2 restrictions. people. Before the covid crisis, more than 4,000 children were Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op) rose— eligible for free school meals in my constituency. After the pandemic hit, that figure more than doubled, with Tulip Siddiq: I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me many now reliant on welfare support just to make ends for not giving way; I have a lot to get through. meet. A fifth of Ilford South’s population are still on Before I sum up the important contributions that furlough, with a significant number forecast to lose their were made in this debate, I want to thank someone who jobs over the next month as a result of the Government’s is not an MP but who probably should be. Marcus inadequate job support package. It is shocking—absolutely Rashford has done us proud. It pains me, as a Liverpool shocking—that more than 2 million children across our fan, to say that—I know that my hon. Friend the country are living in households that experience food Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) felt the insecurity during this pandemic. With over 1 million same when we praised him earlier—but we congratulate children living in areas that are now subject to harsher him on holding the Government to account and on the lockdowns, the number of children that will require this amazing goal that he scored last night. additional support will only increase. I want to pay tribute to two other people who are not We are failing our children at a time of national crisis. in the Chamber today, my hon. Friends the Members The lack of support provided to socioeconomically for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) and for Washington disadvantaged children will scar their futures. What we and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), for all the work are asking from this Government is neither radical nor they have done in championing this issue. impractical. Well-governed nations around the world My hon. Friends the Members for Brent North (Barry continue to prove that there is another way. In New Gardiner), for Bradford West (Naz Shah) and for Hornsey Zealand, despite already having lower child poverty and Wood Green (Catherine West) made passionate ratesthantheUK,acompetentLabour-majorityGovernment speeches about the struggles of the poor children in their have found the means to prioritise free school meals constituencies, and I think the speech from my hon. within their covid-19 recovery. If the UK were to match Friend the Member for Bradford West will go down in the scale of that commitment made by Jacinda Ardern, history for demonstrating the passion that she feels it would have to provide almost 3 million students with about representing the poor people in her constituency. free school meals. If it is good enough for New Zealand, We also heard a very passionate and personal story it is good enough for our great nation as well. from my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North I implore this Government to adopt the calls from the West (Taiwo Owatemi) about being on free school meals Food Foundation and other civil society organisations and how that benefited her. That shows just how important to implement three of the recommendations from the being well fed is for a child. My hon. Friend the Member national food strategy. The parents of children in Ilford for Ilford South (Sam Tarry) also spoke passionately South, who are desperate to get by and to provide for about the struggles in his constituency when it comes to their families, and are defiant in the face of such disregard, food poverty. are doing their bit to beat this virus, yet their businesses, The Government do not think it is worth spending staff and wage support are slashed while their children £157 million to ensure that hungry children can get go hungry. food support in the holidays during a pandemic. Yet, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North 6.43 pm (Charlotte Nichols) pointed out, they think it is worth Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): As I spending £7,000 a day on a consultant for Serco’s failing stand here once again at the Dispatch Box winding up test and trace system. I do not know whether the House an Opposition day debate on free school meals, I have a is aware that that fee alone could pay for 2,300 meals for strong sense of déjà vu, because just four months ago I hungry children next week during half term. The amount was standing in this exact spot speaking on the exact that we are paying one consultant per day to deliver Serco’s same topic—extending free school meals over the upcoming failing test and trace system could pay for 2,300 meals holidays. The big difference between now and then is for hungry children. Please let that sink in. that just hours before the big debate in June, the Prime All the other nations of the UK understand this and Minister performed a U-turn. Today, sadly, there has have now committed to holiday provision. It is only been no U-turn, and 1.4 million children will be without children in England who will not get the support—again, a hot meal from next week during half-term. For some, shameful. I pay tribute in particular to the Welsh it is the only nutritious meal they get every day. Government, who have not only guaranteed support We are about to face one of the toughest winters of through spring next year, but at every stage announced our generation. With the pandemic, with the flu season it well in advance, giving families certainty and the right upon us and with the furlough scheme coming to an to plan. The result of that strong leadership is that end, parents are twice as likely to be furloughed than parents in Wales are not having to worry about whether anyone else working, and now they have to worry about they can put food on the table next year. feeding their children. We should all be hanging our I want to share a quote from a parent who shared heads in shame. Some 1.5 million people are already their experience with the Children’s Society last month. unemployed, the Bank of England has predicted that They said, “I tell my kid to make sure they eat all their 1169 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1170

[Tulip Siddiq] Conservative Governments. The Conservative approach is that the best way out of poverty is through work. school meals, as it may be the only meal they have. I What we have also done in the time that we have been in often have nothing to eat and any food I do have I give office since 2010 is to make a shift away from the cliff to my kid, as they only get one meal a day. I don’t have a edges that happened under the tax credit system, where meal many days.” I would like all the Conservative MPs people made rational decisions that they would be in the Chamber to think about a child who they know, better off not working than working. We have turned whether it is their own child, their niece or nephew, a that on its head so that people will be better off in work godchild or a friend’s child. How would they feel if that unless they cannot work. child was going to sleep tonight not having eaten, and I am very conscious that in every constituency it is knowing that when they wake up tomorrow there is no highly likely that we will see unemployment rising in a food in the fridge? Can they imagine that small person very difficult and challenging way, particularly for the having a rumbling stomach when they are going to bed sectors that we know about such as hospitality and at night? This is what we are voting on today. It is about similar, and where we have put much greater national humanity. restrictions. Right here, right now, this Conservative Many people on the Opposition Benches might not Government are standing behind the people and businesses agree with me, but I genuinely believe that most MPs of this country to help them when they need it most. In came into this House for the right reasons. I believe they terms of our schools, I have already pointed out that we came into politics because they wanted to make a had extra support throughout the year, including through difference and because they wanted to protect the most holiday activities. In terms of supporting employees, we vulnerable. This is a chance to demonstrate why we have had the furlough scheme, which will take us through came into politics. I know it is not easy to rebel against to the end of October, through half-term. It has cost, the party. I have rebelled a few times against my own and is costing, taxpayers £53 billion to provide that party, and it has never been easy, but this is about support for families right across the country. There will principles above party. I know it is not easy to defy the be a new job support scheme with enhanced measures Prime Minister, but I am asking hon. Members from for those parts of the country where stricter and more across the House to think carefully about what they are radical public health changes need to be made, in order going to say when they go back to their constituencies to help to tackle this virus. Amid all that, I am very and there are hungry children because they voted in the proud of the people that work in my Department for wrong Lobby. I know it is a hard thing to do, but once the support that they have given to vulnerable people again I am asking Conservative MPs to vote with us across the country, making sure that we have got money tonight. to people when they needed it in terms of the welfare As the House knows, we are in the middle of Black state. History Month, so I will conclude by quoting a very In particular, it is important to stress that £9.3 billion famous black person, Nelson Mandela, who once said: is not a small amount of money compared to what was “There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the injected into the welfare system when we had the last way in which it treats its children.” financial crisis. It is giving families an extra £20 a week, Before Conservative Members vote today, I ask them and that takes those families right through to Easter please to think about what Nelson Mandela said. next year. It is important that we try to make sure that we have that targeted support, which is why, in addition 6.50 pm to the councils that received £500 million extra earlier in The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse the year, an extra £63 million was specifically given to Coffey): councils, because our social workers know the families in their areas who are at risk and can get that extra help We to them. Of course, with the Barnett formula, all the “are far more united and have far more in common than that devolved nations have had extra funding as well. which divides us.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2015; Vol. 596, c. 675.] I think that feeling has come through in many of the We are in a situation where the Government have speeches tonight made by right hon. and hon. Members. firmly stood behind the most vulnerable children and It came through even where there was anger about some people in the country, and I am very proud of our of the different policy approaches that could be taken. I Government for doing that. think the House is absolutely united in wanting to do Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): There are the best for vulnerable children. 3,829 children in Coventry South who receive free school Social justice has been at the absolute heart of every meals. Talking to their parents, I know how valuable decision that the Government have taken to help the that provision is—how they depend on it, and how their people of this country get through this pandemic together. kids would starve without it. So I ask the Minister and Whether it is about trying to do our best to save lives MPs on the Government Benches: “If you vote against and livelihoods, about devising the shielding scheme the motion, if you let kids go to sleep hungry at night, where we provided 4.2 million food boxes to people, or how do you not feel any sense of shame?” about making sure that schools were kept open by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the most Dr Coffey: Some of the hon. Lady’s hon. Friends vulnerable children in society, those are the approaches made important speeches. The hon. Member for Blaydon that we have taken in trying to make sure that we can (Liz Twist) spoke in praise of the holiday activities and get through this pandemic together. food in the summer. We share her view on that; it is one It is a truism that when the Labour party has left of the schemes that we funded. The hon. Member for government, unemployment has always been higher Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi) was absolutely than when it went into office. That is not the same for right in her passionate conviction that we are here to do 1171 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1172 what we can to help children in society; and that is what approach this issue. I say gently to them: recognise the we have been doing—not least by improving children’s support that has been given to the families that you educational attainment, to enable them to have a genuine represent; recognise the £9.3 billion in welfare alone, future career. never mind the furlough income that has been there, My hon. Friends the Members for Bassetlaw (Brendan and is continuing to help people. So, right here, right Clarke-Smith) and for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan now,let the House come together,support the amendment Gullis), who have experience as teachers, said that a and show a united message to the people of this country major part of our approach should be to improve the that we shall support, and continue to support, the chances of families. That is why the Government are most vulnerable people in our country. working together—we are working with my hon. Friends Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the in other Departments—not only on identifying what we original words stand part of the Question. can do to help the most challenged families in society, but on tackling the cost of living. Yesterday, my right The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 322. hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy Division No. 154] [6.59 pm and Industrial Strategy announced the extension of the energy price cap, and we shall continue to do more. AYES Nearly a million pensioners are getting £140 off their Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cunningham, Alex energy bills later this year without lifting a finger; that is Abrahams, Debbie Daby, Janet what we are doing to help people. Ali, Rushanara David, Wayne The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green Ali, Tahir Davies, Geraint (Catherine West), who was praised by her near neighbour Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Davies-Jones, Alex the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn, spoke Amesbury, Mike Day, Martyn about the benefits of a hot meal in the middle of a Anderson, Fleur De Cordova, Marsha Ansell, Caroline Debbonaire, Thangam school day that helps children learn. Yes, we agree. We Ashworth, Jonathan Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh have provided that, and extended it to the youngest Bardell, Hannah Docherty-Hughes, Martin children automatically. My hon. Friend the Member for Barker, Paula Dodds, Anneliese Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) is Beckett, rh Margaret Doogan, Dave right that we must continue to focus on those children Begum, Apsana Dorans, Allan who are in protection plans, and those families who are Benn, rh Hilary Doughty, Stephen suffering drug abuse and family breakdown, and we Betts, Mr Clive Dowd, Peter need to keep a focus on making sure that we support the Black, Mhairi Dromey, Jack child in the whole. Blackford, rh Ian Duffield, Rosie We are actually in quite a different situation from Blackman, Kirsty Eagle, Ms Angela where we were earlier in the year, when we were in a Blake, Olivia Eagle, Maria national lockdown, with a very strong “stay at home” Blomfield, Paul Eastwood, Colum message, and people’s lives were highly restricted. The Bonnar, Steven Efford, Clive Brabin, Tracy Elliott, Julie virus was new; it was scary. We were—and still are— Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elmore, Chris continuing to learn how to handle the situation, but Brennan, Kevin Eshalomi, Florence together as a Government we have tried to ensure that Brock, Deidre Esterson, Bill we continue to put the vulnerable first. We are in a Brown, Alan Evans, Chris different situation now. We are not in the same measures Brown, Ms Lyn Farron, Tim of lockdown. More people have come off the furlough Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Farry, Stephen scheme and are now back in work—they can work from Bryant, Chris Fellows, Marion home or go to work. Schools are open. The NHS is Buck, Ms Karen Fletcher, Colleen treating many more people, not just the people with Burgon, Richard Flynn, Stephen coronavirus. So we need to encourage life to continue as Butler, Dawn Fovargue, Yvonne it is. That is why we have put those enhanced measures Byrne, Ian Foxcroft, Vicky into tier 2 and tier 3. I congratulate the leaders of the Byrne, rh Liam Foy, Mary Kelly councils who have decided to take that offer of support Cadbury, Ruth Furniss, Gill Callaghan, Amy Gardiner, Barry from the Government, to ensure that they can help the Cameron, Dr Lisa Gibson, Patricia people who they represent. Campbell, rh Sir Alan Gill, Preet Kaur It is really important that we continue to come together Carden, Dan Glindon, Mary as a House to recognise the support that has gone in. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grady, Patrick That is why we tabled the amendment to today’s motion, Chamberlain, Wendy Grant, Peter recognising that we have undertaken significant ways to Champion, Sarah Gray, Neil help the most vulnerable children in society. I am very Chapman, Douglas Green, Kate keen to ensure that we keep that focus on the most Cherry, Joanna Greenwood, Lilian important of our generations for the future, so that Clark, Feryal Greenwood, Margaret people do not fall through the cracks. That is why I and Cooper, Daisy Griffith, Nia my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education Cooper, Rosie Gwynne, Andrew and Ministers across Government, including the Prime Cooper, rh Yvette Haigh, Louise Corbyn, rh Jeremy Halfon, rh Robert Minister, say regularly that there will be nobody left Cowan, Ronnie Hamilton, Fabian behind, and that we will do our best to strive every day Coyle, Neil Hanna, Claire to save the lives and livelihoods of people in this country. Crawley, Angela Hanvey, Neale We really must consider, genuinely, what should be Creasy, Stella Hardy, Emma uniting us today. I am very conscious that Labour Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Members may think that theirs is the only way to Cummins, Judith Harris, Carolyn 1173 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1174

Hayes, Helen Mumby-Croft, Holly Whitley, Mick Yasin, Mohammad Healey, rh John Murray, Ian Whittome, Nadia Zeichner, Daniel Hendrick, Sir Mark Murray, James Williams, Hywel Hendry, Drew Nandy, Lisa Wilson, Munira Tellers for the Ayes: Hill, Mike Newlands, Gavin Winter, Beth Bambos Charalambous and Hillier, Meg Nichols, Charlotte Wishart, Pete Jeff Smith Hobhouse, Wera Nicolson, John Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Norris, Alex NOES Hodgson, Mrs Sharon O’Hara, Brendan Hollern, Kate Onwurah, Chi Adams, Nigel Clarkson, Chris Hopkins, Rachel Oppong-Asare, Abena Afolami, Bim Cleverly, rh James Hosie, Stewart Osamor, Kate Afriyie, Adam Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Howarth, rh Sir George Osborne, Kate Ahmad Khan, Imran Collins, Damian Huq, Dr Rupa Oswald, Kirsten Aiken, Nickie Costa, Alberto Hussain, Imran Owatemi, Taiwo Aldous, Peter Courts, Robert Jardine, Christine Owen, Sarah Allan, Lucy Coutinho, Claire Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Amess, Sir David Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Johnson, Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew Anderson, Lee Crosbie, Virginia Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Anderson, Stuart Daly, James Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Andrew, Stuart Davies, David T. C. Jones, Gerald Pollard, Luke Argar, Edward Davies, Gareth Jones, rh Mr Kevan Powell, Lucy Atherton, Sarah Davies, Dr James Jones, Ruth Qureshi, Yasmin Atkins, Victoria Davies, Mims Jones, Sarah Rayner, Angela Bacon, Gareth Davies, Philip Kane, Mike Reed, Steve Bacon, Mr Richard Davis, rh Mr David Keeley, Barbara Rees, Christina Badenoch, Kemi Davison, Dehenna Kendall, Liz Reeves, Ellie Bailey, Shaun Dinenage, Caroline Khan, Afzal Reeves, Rachel Baker, Duncan Dines, Miss Sarah Kinnock, Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Baker, Mr Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Kyle, Peter Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Baldwin, Harriett Donelan, Michelle Lake, Ben Rimmer, Ms Marie Barclay, rh Steve Dorries, Ms Nadine Lammy, rh Mr David Rodda, Matt Baynes, Simon Double, Steve Lavery, Ian Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Bell, Aaron Dowden, rh Oliver Law, Chris Saville Roberts, rh Liz Benton, Scott Doyle-Price, Jackie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shah, Naz Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard Lewis, Clive Shannon, Jim Berry, rh Jake Drummond, Mrs Flick Linden, David Sharma, Mr Virendra Bhatti, Saqib Duguid, David Lloyd, Tony Sheerman, Mr Barry Blackman, Bob Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Long Bailey, Rebecca Sheppard, Tommy Blunt, Crispin Dunne, rh Philip Lynch, Holly Siddiq, Tulip Bone, Mr Peter Eastwood, Mark MacAskill, Kenny Slaughter, Andy Bottomley, Sir Peter Edwards, Ruth Bowie, Andrew Ellis, rh Michael MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Alyn Bradley, Ben Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Madders, Justin Smith, Cat Bradley, rh Karen Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Nick Brady, Sir Graham Eustice, rh George Mahmood, Shabana Smyth, Karin Sobel, Alex Braverman, rh Suella Evans, Dr Luke Malhotra, Seema Brereton, Jack Evennett, rh Sir David Maskell, Rachael Spellar, rh John Starmer, rh Keir Bridgen, Andrew Everitt, Ben Matheson, Christian Stephens, Chris Brine, Steve Fabricant, Michael Mc Nally, John Stevens, Jo Bristow, Paul Farris, Laura McCabe, Steve Stone, Jamie Britcliffe, Sara Fell, Simon McCarthy, Kerry Streeting, Wes Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Katherine McCartney, Jason Stringer, Graham Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Sultana, Zarah Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Nick McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Tami, rh Mark Buchan, Felicity Ford, Vicky McDonald, Stuart C. Tarry, Sam Buckland, rh Robert Foster, Kevin McDonnell, rh John Thewliss, Alison Burghart, Alex Francois, rh Mr Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Gareth Burns, rh Conor Frazer, Lucy McGinn, Conor Thomas-Symonds, Nick Butler, Rob Freeman, George McKinnell, Catherine Thomson, Richard Cairns, rh Alun Freer, Mike McLaughlin, Anne Thornberry, rh Emily Carter, Andy Fuller, Richard McMahon, Jim Timms, rh Stephen Cartlidge, James Fysh, Mr Marcus McMorrin, Anna Trickett, Jon Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark Mearns, Ian Turner, Karl Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Miliband, rh Edward Twigg, Derek Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Mishra, Navendu Twist, Liz Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Monaghan, Carol Vaz, rh Valerie Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Moran, Layla Webbe, Claudia Churchill, Jo Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Morden, Jessica West, Catherine Clark, rh Greg Glen, John Morgan, Stephen Western, Matt Clarke, Mr Simon Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Morris, Anne Marie Whitehead, Dr Alan Clarke, Theo Gove, rh Michael Morris, Grahame Whitford, Dr Philippa Clarke-Smith, Brendan Graham, Richard 1175 Free School Meals 21 OCTOBER 2020 Free School Meals 1176

Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Mr Jonathan Smith, Henry Tugendhat, Tom Gray, James Mackinlay, Craig Smith, rh Julian Vickers, Martin Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Smith, Royston Vickers, Matt Green, Chris Maclean, Rachel Solloway, Amanda Villiers, rh Theresa Green, rh Damian Mak, Alan Spencer, Dr Ben Walker, Sir Charles Griffith, Andrew Malthouse, Kit Spencer, rh Mark Walker, Mr Robin Griffiths, Kate Mangnall, Anthony Stafford, Alexander Wallis, Dr Jamie Grundy, James Mann, Scott Stephenson, Andrew Warburton, David Gullis, Jonathan Marson, Julie Stevenson, Jane Warman, Matt Hall, Luke May, rh Mrs Theresa Stevenson, John Watling, Giles Hammond, Stephen Mayhew, Jerome Stewart, Bob Webb, Suzanne Hancock, rh Matt McCartney, Karl Stewart, Iain Whately, Helen Hands, rh Greg Menzies, Mark Streeter, Sir Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Harper, rh Mr Mark Mercer, Johnny Stride, rh Mel Whittaker, Craig Harris, Rebecca Merriman, Huw Sunak, rh Rishi Whittingdale, rh Mr John Harrison, Trudy Metcalfe, Stephen Sunderland, James Wiggin, Bill Hart, Sally-Ann Millar, Robin Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Wild, James Hart, rh Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Syms, Sir Robert Williams, Craig Hayes, rh Sir John Milling, rh Amanda Thomas, Derek Williamson, rh Gavin Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mills, Nigel Throup, Maggie Wood, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Timpson, Edward Wragg, Mr William Henderson, Gordon Mohindra, Mr Gagan Tolhurst, Kelly Wright, rh Jeremy Henry, Darren Moore, Robbie Tomlinson, Justin Young, Jacob Higginbotham, Antony Mordaunt, rh Penny Tomlinson, Michael Zahawi, Nadhim Hinds, rh Damian Morris, David Tracey, Craig Tellers for the Noes: Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, James Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Tom Pursglove and Hollobone, Mr Philip Morton, Wendy Trott, Laura Leo Docherty Holloway, Adam Mullan, Dr Kieran Holmes, Paul Mundell, rh David Howell, John Murray, Mrs Sheryll Question accordingly negatived. Howell, Paul Murrison, rh Dr Andrew The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Huddleston, Nigel Neill, Sir Robert proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Hughes, Eddie Nokes, rh Caroline proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hunt, Jane Norman, rh Jesse Hunt, rh Jeremy O’Brien, Neil Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Hunt, Tom Offord, Dr Matthew That the proposed words be there added. Jack, rh Mr Alister Opperman, Guy Question agreed to. Javid, rh Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Pawsey, Mark The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Jenkinson, Mark Penning, rh Sir Mike amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Jenkyns, Andrea Penrose, John Resolved, Jenrick, rh Robert Philp, Chris Johnson, rh Boris Pincher, rh Christopher That this House notes that schools are now fully operational Johnson, Dr Caroline Pow, Rebecca following the covid-19 outbreak, and will continue to offer free Johnson, Gareth Prentis, Victoria school meals in term time; welcomes the substantial support Johnston, David Pritchard, Mark provided by the Government to children worth £550 million Jones, Andrew Quin, Jeremy annually; further welcomes that this support has been bolstered Jones, rh Mr David Quince, Will by almost £53 billion worth of income protection schemes, and Jones, Fay Randall, Tom £9.3 billion of additional welfare payments; notes that eligible families have also been supported throughout lockdown through Jones, Mr Marcus Redwood, rh John the receipt of meal vouchers worth £380 million while schools Jupp, Simon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob were partially closed, alongside the Holiday Activities and Food Kawczynski, Daniel Richards, Nicola Fund; and further supports the Government in its ongoing activities Kearns, Alicia Richardson, Angela to help the most vulnerable children in society. Keegan, Gillian Roberts, Rob Knight, rh Sir Greg Robertson, Mr Laurence Knight, Julian Robinson, Mary Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Kruger, Danny Rosindell, Andrew now have to announce the results of today’s deferred Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Rowley, Lee Divisions. Lamont, John Russell, Dean Largan, Robert Rutley, David On the draft Citizens’ Rights (Application Deadline Leadsom, rh Andrea Sambrook, Gary and Temporary Protection) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, Leigh, rh Sir Edward Saxby, Selaine the Ayes were 342 and the Noes were 237, so the Ayes Levy, Ian Scully, Paul have it. Lewer, Andrew Seely, Bob On the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 Lewis, rh Brandon Selous, Andrew (Coronavirus) (Extension of the Relevant Period) Lewis, rh Dr Julian Shapps, rh Grant Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1031), the Ayes were Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sharma, rh Alok 353 and the Noes were nil, so the Ayes have it. Loder, Chris Shelbrooke, rh Alec Logan, Mark Simmonds, David On the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Longhi, Marco Skidmore, rh Chris (Self-Isolation) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, Lopez, Julia Smith, Chloe No. 1045), the Ayes were 333 and the Noes were one, so Lopresti, Jack Smith, Greg the Ayes have it. 1177 21 OCTOBER 2020 Business without Debate 1178

[Madam Deputy Speaker] Inquiry into policing at the Orgreave coking plant, 18 June 1984 On the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North of England, North East and North West of Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): I rise to present a England and Obligations of Undertakings (England) petition on behalf of my constituents in Easington and etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1057), others from former coalmining communities and beyond the Ayes were 332 and the Noes were four, so the Ayes about the need for an inquiry into policing at the have it. Orgreave coking plant on 18 June 1984. OnthedraftCommunityInfrastructureLevy(Amendment) The petition declares: (England) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, the Ayes were 324 and the Noes were 188, so the Ayes have it. The petition of residents of the constituency of Easington, Declares that the UK Government has a responsibility to [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s investigate properly the behaviour of the police at the Orgreave debates.] coking plant miners’ strike on 18 June 1984; further declares that it fails this responsibility with its decision on 31 October 2016 not to order an inquiry into the policing of the strike; further declares Business without Debate that the silence of the UK Government on this issue is irreconcilable with Scotland and Wales, where the Scottish Parliament completed its own review in February 2019 into the policing of the Miners’ DELEGATED LEGISLATION Strike in Scotland and the Welsh Assembly continues to call for a review; and further declares that, until a light can be shone on the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): government participation and police operations during the Miners’ With the leave of the House, we will take motions 2 and Strike 1984-85, and specifically on 18 June 1984 at Orgreave, this 3 together. historic injustice will continue to fuel public unrest at the lack of accountability of the state. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Order No. 118(6)), urge the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitioners and review its decision not to order an independent inquiry into the policing at the Orgreave coking plant on 18 June EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (ELECTRONIC 1984; and to consider afresh the legal submission presented to the COMMUNICATIONS) Home Secretary by the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign in That the draft Communications Act (e-Commerce) (EU Exit) 2015. Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 24 September, And the petitioners remain, etc. be approved. [P002615]

EDUCATION Support for the wedding industry That the draft Higher Education (Fee Limits and Student Support) (England) (Coronavirus) (Revocation) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 28 September, be approved.— Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): One (David Duguid.) of the traumatic effects of the covid-19 restrictions has Question agreed to. been for people who have planned their weddings. Some have had to cancel their dream wedding; others now have to massively scale them down. Those are emotional PETITIONS impacts, but there is a wider economic impact, which is why I present this petition for support for the wider Support for the travel industry wedding industry. Just today, I was contacted by the manager of a hotel; 7.16 pm they are really struggling because of the local lockdown restrictions but also cited the loss of wedding trade as David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I rise to present one of the impacts.The wedding industry covers hospitality a petition on behalf of my constituents in Glasgow East venues, catering suppliers, outfitters, bands, DJs, limousine who wish to see support for the travel industry. andtaxi-hirecompanies,coachcompaniesandphotographers, The petition states: and many of those people have not had any support The petition of the residents of the constituency of Glasgow whatsoever. East, The petition states: Declares that the economic consequences of the Coronavirus pandemic have had a devastating effect on the travel and tourism The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons sector; notes that, normally, outbound and inbound travel is urge the Government to bring forward immediate additional estimated to generate approximately £65bn to the UK economy; measures to support the wider wedding industry,including hospitality further notes that an estimated 12,000 jobs are already lost and venues,outfitters,suppliers,the entertainment industry,photographers, approximately a further 75,000 jobs could be at risk; further vehicle hire companies and coach hire companies. declares that no more operators should be pushed to bankruptcy; Following is the full text of the petition: and further declares that any work by the Secretary of State for Transport to support the travel industry should be in coordination [The petition of the residents of the constituency of with the #SaveTravel Campaign organised by Trade Travel Gazette. Kilmarnock and Loudoun, The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Declares that the economic consequences of the urge the Government to immediately bring forward additional Coronavirus pandemic have had a devastating effect on measures to support the travel industry, including the aviation the wider wedding industry; further declares that this sector, coach companies and travel booking agencies. impact is felt across hospitality venues, catering suppliers, And the petitioners remain, etc. outfitters, bands and DJs, limousine and tax hire companies, [P002610] coach companies, and photographers; further declares 1179 Business without Debate 21 OCTOBER 2020 1180 that many of these groups now have no income or support; Hedge End Train Station: Accessibility further declares that these are all viable businesses when Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House restrictions are lifted and full weddings can take place; do now adjourn.—(David Duguid.) and further declares that many people have been personally disappointed by the lost opportunity to marry their loved ones in the setting they dreamed of, further that many 7.21 pm people hope that they have their maximum choice available Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): I rise to raise with the post covid-19 pandemic. Government an issue that has been a long-standing The petitioners therefore request that the House of concern of my constituents living in Hedge End, Botley, Commons urge the Government to bring forward immediate West End and Fair Oak, and that is the lack of accessibility additional measures to support the wider wedding industry, at Hedge End train station in my constituency. It is including hospitality venues, outfitters, suppliers, the good to see present in the Chamber my right hon. entertainment industry,photographers,vehicle hire companies Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North and coach hire companies. (Caroline Nokes) and my constituency neighbour, my And the petitioners remain, etc.] hon.FriendtheMemberforMeonValley(MrsDrummond). I know that they have constituents who use the railway [P002616] station. Before I go into detail about the particular circumstances concerning Hedge End, I wish to give the Minister some context in respect of why I have called for action and for this debate in particular. Over the past 20 years, the population of Eastleigh borough has grown by 15%, which is almost double the national average rate. We have also seen significant increases in house building, particularly in Hedge End, which sadly has not been matched with the new infrastructure needed to serve the growing population. The situation has been exacerbated by the failure of the local council, which has been unable or unwilling to put in place a suitable local plan to guide and shape development in a sustainable way. The volume of new housing in Hedge End has been substantial. Between 2001 and 2011, new homes delivered at Dowd’s Farm, a major strategic development in Hedge End North, increased the population in that borough council ward by 33.6%. That is in 10 years. Between 2011 and now, major new housing developments have delivered a further 450 new homes, with more housing delivered not only as part of Dowd’s Farm but at Kings Copse Road and St John’s Road, near to the southern parish’s excellent Conservative club. Looking ahead, Eastleigh Borough Council has either granted planning permission or allocated space for a further 738 new homes to be built in Hedge End in the next 10 years. In simple terms, we have had the housing growth and population increases, and we will continue to have more housing growth, but we have not got the infrastructure that should go hand in hand with this level of past, present and planned development. Members may have been to my constituency to campaign in one or both of the by-elections that have taken place there in the past 25 years—although it is safe to say, I hope, that there will be no further by-elections in my constituency—and if they did, they would have arrived at either Southampton Airport Parkway or Eastleigh town centre. At the next election, during my hopefully successful re-election campaign, I want to give colleagues the opportunity to see Hedge End town’s vibrant offer after coming into a Hedge End train station with greater accessible transport. Towns and villages such as Hedge End, Botley,Bursledon and Hamble are served by small stations that lack the facilities required to serve growing settlements. Many of my constituents choose to live in Hedge End because of the railway connections to London, the great sense of community and the excellent local schools, such as Wildern School and Berrywood, to name but two. This 1181 Hedge End Train Station: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Hedge End Train Station: 1182 Accessibility Accessibility [Paul Holmes] The Minister will know that levelling up is not just about solving a geographical problem between north explains why Hedge End station is well used, with more and south. It is about equal opportunity and better than 522,000 entries and exits in the past year alone. outcomes for those who are disadvantaged. I firmly That is up from 506,000 in 2017. However, for some believe that with the installation of either a lift or people in my constituency entering the station is not as wheelchair accessible facilities at Hedge End station, we easy as exiting the station and that is what I hope the can achieve exactly the sort of results that are at the Minister will be able to assist with today. heart of this Government’s agenda. Parents with disabled children, disabled adults and parents with pushchairs or prams are unable to use Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): My hon. Hedge End station to travel because there are no lifts, Friend is making an excellent speech about a very wheelchair or pushchair-accessible facilities at the station. important topic, which is equally important to the Travellers or commuters with mobility issues are left in constituencies that neighbour his own. As he said, it is a the unacceptable situation of being able to take the very fast-growing station—with, I think, 138% growth train to London from Hedge End, but they are forced to since 2000—so it is important to my constituents. Has alight at Southampton Airport, Eastleigh, Fareham or he considered that it is possible to get on the Fareham- other stations towards Portsmouth for their return journey. bound platform along a footpath, which at the moment is very muddy? Has he looked at whether we can develop that side of the station to enable people with disabilities Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) to access Fareham-bound trains? (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this incredibly important debate. Does he agree that all too Paul Holmes: My hon. Friend makes a very good often it is our disabled constituents who get the roughest point. She knows the station as well as I do, and her deal when it comes to public transport, particularly on constituents use it. There are options to improve the our rail network, and that we simply have to do better footbridge from that side of the train station. I share to make sure they have the same access to get around her sentiments and her aspiration, and think that that is the country as we do? an adequate step for the short term, but with the number of people who will use the station in the longer Paul Holmes: My right hon. Friend is absolutely term with the increase in population from those moving correct. Many constituents have written to me to tell me into the constituency, we need to go further. That is why how they have disabled children or that they have I secured the debate tonight and I thank her for her disabilities themselves, and that at the moment they intervention. cannot travel into London. The only way, which I will With the installation of either a lift or wheelchair- come on to later, they can get to London and have that accessible facilities at Hedge End station, we can achieve mobility is by taking a journey in a car or by paying for the sort of results that are at the heart of the Government’s a cab to go down the M27 and into Eastleigh town agenda. We can give disabled people the opportunity to centre or Southampton. She is completely correct. Members easily travel for work and enjoyment, we can make life across the House have stations where this is a problem better for families and parents with young children, we and we need to get better at providing that solution for can improve our environment by getting more cars off people with disabilities, so they can travel as well as the road, and we can make sustainable travel alternatives those who are able-bodied. That is why I say to the a sensible, viable option for my constituents and the Minister that the situation at Hedge End surely cannot wider community. be allowed to continue. With all those benefits, I hope the Minister will Southampton Airport and Eastleigh, which are the reflect on the strong case for upgrading the facilities at closest stations to Hedge End, are still over five miles Hedge End station and make the station a priority for away by car or taxi, which naturally come with additional future funding allocations.I know that he will acknowledge costs and inconvenience. The lack of access to the that I have written to him and lobbied him before, in the station means that people from the southern half of my Tea Room and other locations, and I will continue to constituency are forced to travel to Southampton Airport lobby him to get the funding we need. However, if he Parkway, which has an annual usage of 1.7 million would like to make our life in Eastleigh just a little bit passengers, or Eastleigh, which has an annual usage of easier, I look forward to him writing to me, or he could 1.6 million passengers, by driving through the towns of just give me and my constituents the good news that he Fair Oak, Horton Heath or Bishopstoke, or down the is allocating the funding right now. M27. That creates another problem. Our towns and villages, such as Eastleigh, Bishopstoke and Fair Oak, 7.30 pm are struggling with a lack of investment in road infra- structure caused by the overdevelopment of housing. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Chris This means that the roads around Eastleigh and Heaton-Harris): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Southampton Airport station are often blocked in rush for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes) on giving colleagues across hour and inaccessible, too. There is a wider point in that the House the opportunity to discuss the important the Government quite rightly—I completely support subject of accessibility to the railway network, in particular them—argue that we need greener and more sustainable in his constituency at Hedge End station. I thank him forms of travel. I agree, but the current facilities at for the very positive engagement that we have had on Hedge End station do not facilitate that and in many this matter. I promise him that his polite and persistent respects actively discourage it. That is, of course, bad manner will achieve a lot for his constituents in this for passengers, bad for the environment and bad for our place. The way in which he goes about his business is local transport networks. completely professional and does him great credit. 1183 Hedge End Train Station: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Hedge End Train Station: 1184 Accessibility Accessibility I recognise how important it is for my hon. Friend’s to the Committee’s heart. Can he give us some indication constituents to have access to the railway to get to and of the sums that the Chancellor has extended to the from work, to see family and friends, and to go about network to improve accessibility at stations and how their lives. I know from the contributions from my hon. many that might help? Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Chris Heaton-Harris: I will come on to that later in Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) how important my speech and, like my right hon. Friend, I am very it is for their constituents, too. I should also acknowledge passionate about this area. I have done a huge amount, my hon. Friends the Members for Bolsover (Mark I would like to think, to help people with learning Fletcher) and for High Peak (Robert Largan), who care disabilities,and I was the chair of the all-party parliamentary passionately about accessibility on the railway and are group on learning disability in this place before I was here to listen to the debate, and my opposite number, fortunate enough to become a Minister. the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi), who assiduously I know we need to do a great deal more, but I guess attends these debates and who I know is passionate I can say to my right hon. Friend that this new funding about this area too. builds on the previous success. It was launched as a Delivering a transport system that is truly accessible 10-year programme in 2006. So far, it has installed to all is of great importance to the Government. I hope accessible step-free routes at more than 200 stations, that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh has seen and some 1,500 stations have benefited from smaller-scale the Department for Transport’sinclusive transport strategy, access improvements. published in 2018, and recognises it as evidence of the The new funding allows design work to restart on all Government’s commitment to taking action to safeguard the projects deferred by the 2016 Hendy review into and promote the rights of all disabled passengers. We Network Rail delivery and allows even more stations to do not deny that our strategy is ambitious, but we are be included in the programme. We asked the industry to determined to deliver it. By 2030, we want disabled nominate stations for the new funding, and we received people to have the same access to transport as everyone more than 300 nominations, most of which came through else. If physical infrastructure remains a barrier,assistance the train operating companies, often in partnership will play a role in guaranteeing those rights. with local authorities, Members of Parliament or local An accessible transport network is central to the councillors who were championing them. Government’s wider ambition to build a society that Nominated stations were then selected based on criteria, works for all. Regardless of the nature of a person’s which included—this is quite an important inclusion— disability, they should have the same access to transport annual footfall and the incidence of disability in the and the same opportunity to travel as everyone else, as area. We also took into account other local factors, my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and such as proximity to a hospital or the availability of Southampton North said. This is an important measure third-party funding for the project and, indeed, ensured for reducing social isolation and creating opportunities a fair geographic spread of the projects across the for people to play a more active role in society. We country. know, for example, that disabled people are more than As my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh will twice as likely to be unemployed as non-disabled people. know, Hedge End was nominated for Access for All The simple ability to travel from A to B should not be a funding, but was not successful this time round. That barrier to someone becoming employed. was largely because of its low footfall compared with As my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh knows, other stations nominated by South Western Railway. I many of our stations are Victorian and their infrastructure understand his disappointment that Hedge End was not is not fit for today. The 19th-century stations were not selected. All inaccessible stations deserve funding, but built with the needs of 21st-century passengers in mind, as he would understand, we receive many more nominations which has left us with a huge task of opening up the rail for the programme than we are able to support at this network to disabled passengers. Although 75% of journeys time. Stations are selected for funding through a are through step-free stations, only about a fifth of prioritisation and assessment process. It was difficult to stations, 20%, have proper step-free access into the station justify Hedge End’s inclusion at this time ahead of other and to and between each platform. busier stations that had a higher priority for the reasons Clearly, there is a lot more to be done. Accessible I have just given and as suggested by the industry. stations make a huge difference to people’s journey experience, not only for those with reduced mobility but Paul Holmes: I apologise for interrupting the Minister, for those carrying heavy luggage, those pushing pushchairs and I am grateful for his comments, but will he just with children and a whole host of other people. That is clarify something for me and my constituents? He says why we have continued the Access for All programme. that Hedge End was unsuccessful in bidding for funding The inclusive transport strategy included a commitment last time, which I completely accept—his communication to extend the programme across control period 6 in rail, with me was perfectly courteous on that—but will future between 2019 and 2024—we love to work in five-year funding bids take into account the historic increase in periods—with an additional £300 million of funding footfall in stations, which Hedge End will have over the from the public purse. My hon. Friend might also be next five years, but also has had over the past five years? aware that in March the Chancellor included an extra £50 million in the Budget for that programme. Chris Heaton-Harris: Yes. Footfall is a very important factor in the criteria that we take into account. Should Caroline Nokes: As Chair of the Select Committee on further funding become available, or if there are significant Women and Equalities, I can tell the Minister that the underspends elsewhere in the existing delivery programme, issue of disabled people and transport is a subject dear I will look to select further stations. I cannot guarantee 1185 Hedge End Train Station: 21 OCTOBER 2020 Hedge End Train Station: 1186 Accessibility Accessibility [Chris Heaton-Harris] to create the new passenger assistance application, which will make it easier for disabled passengers to book that that will happen, and I cannot yet guarantee that assistance. We encourage the ORR to be as ambitious Hedge End will be among them, because unfortunately as possible with regard to the proposals to reduce the it is far from unique, but it will be given due consideration minimum notice period for booking assistance, and to along with the other unsuccessful stations, and I can tell set the shortest minimum period that operational constraints my hon. Friend that I will bear in mind this debate at allow, based on its knowledge of and input of its routes. that time, along with all the very valid arguments he has I know that there is more we can do to make the rail made this evening. network more accessible. Therefore, we will be introducing I assure my hon. Friend that the Government are a new set of accessibility requirements. Those include committed to improving access across the rail network, the introduction and delivery of enhanced disability and we will seek further opportunities and funding to awareness training to all train operating company staff, make further improvements. We are also pressing the regardless of their role or seniority, and mandating all industry to comply with its legal obligations to ensure train operators running new franchises, or these new that work at stations meets current accessibility standards emergency recovery measures agreements, to write annually and for the Office of Rail and Road to enforce the to the Secretary of State for Transport and me, as the standards effectively.That applies not only to the flagship transport accessibility Minister, outlining all activity projects, such as Crossrail or the redevelopment of that has been conducted to improve accessibility for rail Birmingham New Street—all of which are delivering passengers, including what they have done beyond the significant accessibility improvements—but also as part obligations in their franchise agreements and future rail of the business-as-usual work of the renewals programme, contracts. We have actively supported the establishment such as making sure that any replacement bridges have by the industry of an independent rail ombudsman lifts or ramps. with powers to deal with unresolved passenger complaints. It is also important that the industry meets its obligations However, as I say, there is a lot more to be done in this to anyone who needs assistance, whether or not they area, and not all of it involves more cash. have booked ahead of time. Every passenger should get I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that the the best possible help to use the trains, particularly at Government are committed to improving access at stations stations that do not have accessibility features. Each for disabled passengers, through both specific projects operator is required to have an accessible travel policy such as Access for All and improvements delivered as in place as part of its licence to operate services. The part of our wider commitment to improving the rail policy sets out the services that disabled passengers can network. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for expect and what to do if things go wrong. It commits Eastleigh and all colleagues for their contributions to the operator to meeting its legal obligations by making the debate. I appreciate the frustration of passengers reasonable adjustments to its services to allow disabled who do not have access to stations in their area, but I people to use them, for example by providing an accessible hope that my hon. Friend has been reassured that the taxi free of charge to anyone unable to access a particular Government remain committed to investment that will station. provide and improve services in this area. We want all The Office of Rail and Road recently consulted on people to continue to benefit from the record levels of revised accessible travel policy guidance, which included funding, including Access for All investment, that we new proposals that will strengthen the provisions put in are putting into the rail network at this point in time, place to ensure that disabled people can use the rail and I thank my hon. Friend very much indeed for network. I have encouraged the ORR to take enforcement raising this issue in the manner in which he did. action against train and station operators who are Question put and agreed to. found not to be meeting their accessibility obligations. Every disabled passenger should be confident that 7.42 pm the assistance they have booked will be provided. The House adjourned. Department has worked with the Rail Delivery Group 1187 21 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 1188

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated (Dunfermline and West Fife) as their proxy: (SNP) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy South West) (SNP) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough South and Debbie Abrahams (Oldham Chris Elmore East Cleveland) East and Saddleworth) (Lab) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew (Cities of Stuart Andrew and Hythe) (Con) London and Westminster) (Con) Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Lancashire) (Lab) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore (Tooting) (Lab) Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady (SNP) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew (Con) Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew West Devon) (Con) Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady (SNP) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady Hamilton East) (SNP) Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew Billericay) (Con) Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Caroline Nokes South) (Lab) Aylesford) (Con) Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Valley) (Con) (Lab) (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Geraint Davies (Swansea Dawn Butler Darwen) (Con) West) (Lab/Co-op) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) Stuart Andrew Renfrewshire South) (SNP) (Con) Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady Mr David Davis (Haltemprice Stuart Andrew Lochaber) (SNP) and Howden) (Con) Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady (Con) East Falkirk) (SNP) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins North) (SNP) (Battersea) Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) Caroline Nokes Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew Martin Docherty-Hughes Patrick Grady (Wellingborough) (Con) (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Patrick Grady Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) and Cumnock) (SNP) Ben Bradley (Mansfield) Stuart Andrew Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Bedfordshire) (Con) Leicestershire) (Con) Steve Double (St Austell and Stuart Andrew Deidre Brock (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Newquay) (Con) North and Leith) (SNP) Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore (Lab) Erdington) (Lab) Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Zarah Sultana Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Jeremy Hunt West) (Con) Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore (Con) Hodge Hill) (Lab) Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Maria Caulfield Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady (Con) Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore Gregory Campbell (East Sammy Wilson (Lab) Londonderry) (DUP) Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) Stuart Andrew Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Sir Stuart Andrew Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab) (Con) 1189 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote21 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 1190

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield (Con) (Con) Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore (Alliance) (Knowsley) (Lab) Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady Dr (Penrith and Stuart Andrew and Wishaw) (SNP) The Border) (Con) Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore and Hamilton West) (Ind) (Lab) Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Mr (North Stuart Andrew South) (SNP) East Hampshire) (Con) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore Dr Caroline Johnson Stuart Andrew Deptford) (Lab) (Sleaford and North Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew Hykeham) (Con) and Wickford) (Con) Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami (Kingston upon Hull North) Norfolk) (Con) (Lab) Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Craig Mackinlay Simon Jupp (East Devon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes Thanet) (Con) Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Melton) (Con) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) Steve Baker (Con) Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Eccles South) (Lab) Patricia Gibson (North Patrick Grady Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Gorton) (Lab) Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew Yorkshire) (Con) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew Julian Knight (Solihull) Stuart Andrew (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) John Lamont (Berwickshire, Stuart Andrew Roxburgh and Selkirk) Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore Tyneside) (Lab) Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid William Wragg Derbyshire) (Con) Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew and The Weald) (Con) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Kate Osborne Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady (SNP) (SNP) Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Lab) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore West) (Lab) Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew (Bridgwater and West Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Somerset) (Con) Reddish) (Lab) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Chris Elmore Heeley) (Lab) Marco Longhi (Dudley Stuart Andrew North) (Con) Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore North East) (Lab) Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew (Con) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Ben Lake (SDLP) Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady (Camberwell and Peckham) Lothian) (SNP) (Lab) Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Hertfordshire) (Con) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Stewart Malcom McDonald Patrick Grady Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady (Glasgow South) (SNP) Nairn, Badenoch and John McDonnell (Hayes and Zarah Sultana Strathspey) (SNP) Harlington) (Lab) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Fay Jones Conor McGinn (St Helens Chris Elmore (Con) North) Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore John Mc Nally (Falkirk) Patrick Grady (Barking) (Lab) (SNP) Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore (Washington and Sunderland (Birmingham, Perry Barr) West) (Lab) (Lab) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore Christian Matheson (City of Chris Elmore (Lab) Chester) (Lab) 1191 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote21 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 1192

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Kate Osborne Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Meirionnydd) (PC) Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con) (Con) Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) Stuart Andrew Southall) (Lab) (Con) Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) North West) Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew East) (SNP) Abbot) (Con) Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew and Lunesdale) (Con) (Con) Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (Lab) Royston Smith Robert Courts James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore (Southampton, Itchen) (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady Sutherland and Easter Ross) South Perthshire) (SNP) (LD) Dr (Hendon) Rebecca Harris Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew (Con) Devon) (Con) Guy Opperman (Hexham) Stuart Andrew Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Kate Osamor (Jarrow) Nadia Whittome Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Patrick Grady Kirsten Oswald (East Patrick Grady Central) (SNP) Renfrewshire) (SNP) Gareth Thomas (Harrow Chris Elmore Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew West) (Lab/Co-op) Shropshire) (Con) Richard Thomson (Gordon) Patrick Grady Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley Chris Elmore (SNP) East) Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) Stuart Andrew Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew (Con) Hempstead) (Con) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Dawn Butler Matthew Pennycook Chris Elmore (Lab) (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab) Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Hull East) (Lab) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Yardley) Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) Stuart Andrew (Con) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Peter Aldous Suffolk and North Ipswich) David Warburton (Somerton Stuart Andrew (Con) and Frome) (Con) Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Central) (Lab/Co-op) Ayrshire) (SNP) Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake South East) (Lab) Pete Wishart (Perth and Patrick Grady (Neath) Chris Elmore North Perthshire) (SNP) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore and Penge) (Lab) (Lab) 1193 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1194

Deferred Divisions Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leadsom, rh Andrea Gibb, rh Nick Leigh, rh Sir Edward EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (IMMIGRATION) Gibson, Peter Levy, Ian That the draft Citizens’ Rights (Application Deadline and Gideon, Jo Lewer, Andrew Temporary Protection) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Brandon laid before this House on 21 September, be approved. Glen, John Lewis, rh Dr Julian The House divided: Ayes 343, Noes 237. Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Division No. 148] Gove, rh Michael Loder, Chris Graham, Richard Logan, Mark AYES Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Afolami, Bim Clarke, Mr Simon Green, Chris Lopresti, Jack Afriyie, Adam Clarke, Theo Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Ahmad Khan, Imran Clarke-Smith, Brendan Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Aiken, Nickie Clarkson, Chris Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Aldous, Peter Cleverly, rh James Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Allan, Lucy Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Amess, Sir David Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Anderson, Lee Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Anderson, Stuart Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Andrew, Stuart Costa, Alberto Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Ansell, Caroline Courts, Robert Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Argar, Edward Coutinho, Claire Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Atherton, Sarah Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Atkins, Victoria Crabb, rh Stephen Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Bacon, Gareth Crosbie, Virginia Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Bacon, Mr Richard Crouch, Tracey Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Badenoch, Kemi Daly, James Hayes, rh Sir John McVey, rh Esther Bailey, Shaun Davies, David T. C. Heald, rh Sir Oliver Menzies, Mark Baillie, Siobhan Davies, Gareth Heappey, James Mercer, Johnny Baker, Duncan Davies, Dr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Merriman, Huw Baker, Mr Steve Davies, Mims Henderson, Gordon Metcalfe, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Philip Henry, Darren Millar, Robin Barclay, rh Steve Davis, rh Mr David Higginbotham, Antony Miller, rh Mrs Maria Baron, Mr John Davison, Dehenna Hinds, rh Damian Milling, rh Amanda Baynes, Simon Dinenage, Caroline Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Bell, Aaron Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Benton, Scott Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Mr Gagan Beresford, Sir Paul Docherty, Leo Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Berry, rh Jake Donelan, Michelle Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Bhatti, Saqib Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Blackman, Bob Double, Steve Howell, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Blunt, Crispin Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel Morris, David Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James Bottomley, Sir Peter Drax, Richard Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Bowie, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Bradley, Ben Duguid, David Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Bradley, rh Karen Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Brady, Sir Graham Eastwood, Mark Javid, rh Sajid Murray, Mrs Sheryll Brereton, Jack Edwards, Ruth Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard Neill, Sir Robert Brine, Steve Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark Nokes, rh Caroline Bristow, Paul Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Andrea Norman, rh Jesse Britcliffe, Sara Eustice, rh George Jenrick, rh Robert O’Brien, Neil Brokenshire, rh James Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline Offord, Dr Matthew Browne, Anthony Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Bruce, Fiona Everitt, Ben Johnston, David Parish, Neil Buchan, Felicity Fabricant, Michael Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Buckland, rh Robert Farris, Laura Jones, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark Burghart, Alex Fell, Simon Jones, Fay Penning, rh Sir Mike Burns, rh Conor Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Butler, Rob Fletcher, Mark Jupp, Simon Percy, Andrew Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Nick Kawczynski, Daniel Philp, Chris Campbell, Mr Gregory Ford, Vicky Kearns, Alicia Pincher, rh Christopher Carter, Andy Foster, Kevin Keegan, Gillian Poulter, Dr Dan Cartlidge, James Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Pow, Rebecca Cash, Sir William Frazer, Lucy Knight, Julian Prentis, Victoria Cates, Miriam Freeman, George Kruger, Danny Pritchard, Mark Caulfield, Maria Freer, Mike Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pursglove, Tom Chalk, Alex Fuller, Richard Lamont, John Quince, Will Chishti, Rehman Gale, rh Sir Roger Largan, Robert Randall, Tom Churchill, Jo Garnier, Mark Latham, Mrs Pauline Redwood, rh John 1195 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1196

Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Syms, Sir Robert Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Richards, Nicola Thomas, Derek Doughty, Stephen Linden, David Richardson, Angela Throup, Maggie Dowd, Peter Lloyd, Tony Roberts, Rob Timpson, Edward Dromey, Jack Long Bailey, Rebecca Robertson, Mr Laurence Tolhurst, Kelly Duffield, Rosie Lynch, Holly Robinson, Mary Tomlinson, Justin Eagle, Ms Angela MacAskill, Kenny Rosindell, Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Angus Brendan Rowley, Lee Tracey, Craig Edwards, Jonathan Madders, Justin Russell, Dean Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Rutley, David Trott, Laura Elmore, Chris Malhotra, Seema Sambrook, Gary Truss, rh Elizabeth Eshalomi, Florence Maskell, Rachael Saxby, Selaine Tugendhat, Tom Esterson, Bill Matheson, Christian Scully, Paul Vickers, Martin Evans, Chris Mc Nally, John Seely, Bob Vickers, Matt Farron, Tim McCarthy, Kerry Selous, Andrew Villiers, rh Theresa Farry, Stephen McDonald, Andy Shannon, Jim Wakeford, Christian Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Shapps, rh Grant Walker, Sir Charles Ferrier, Margaret McDonald, Stuart C. Shelbrooke, rh Alec Walker, Mr Robin Fletcher, Colleen McDonnell, rh John Simmonds, David Wallis, Dr Jamie Flynn, Stephen McGinn, Conor Skidmore, rh Chris Warburton, David Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Chloe Warman, Matt Foxcroft, Vicky McLaughlin, Anne Smith, Greg Watling, Giles Foy, Mary Kelly McMahon, Jim Smith, Henry Webb, Suzanne Furniss, Gill McMorrin, Anna Smith, rh Julian Whately, Helen Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh Edward Solloway, Amanda Wheeler, Mrs Heather Gibson, Patricia Mishra, Navendu Spencer, Dr Ben Gill, Preet Kaur Monaghan, Carol Whittaker, Craig Spencer, rh Mark Glindon, Mary Moran, Layla Whittingdale, rh Mr John Stafford, Alexander Grady, Patrick Morden, Jessica Wiggin, Bill Stephenson, Andrew Grant, Peter Morgan, Stephen Wild, James Stevenson, Jane Gray, Neil Morris, Grahame Stevenson, John Williams, Craig Green, Kate Murray, Ian Stewart, Bob Williamson, rh Gavin Greenwood, Lilian Murray, James Stewart, Iain Wilson, rh Sammy Greenwood, Margaret Nandy, Lisa Streeter, Sir Gary Wood, Mike Griffith, Nia Newlands, Gavin Stride, rh Mel Wragg, Mr William Gwynne, Andrew Nichols, Charlotte Sturdy, Julian Wright, rh Jeremy Haigh, Louise Nicolson, John Sunderland, James Young, Jacob Hamilton, Fabian Norris, Alex Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim Hanna, Claire O’Hara, Brendan Hardy, Emma Olney, Sarah NOES Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Harris, Carolyn Oppong-Asare, Abena Abbott, rh Ms Diane Byrne, rh Liam Hayes, Helen Osamor, Kate Abrahams, Debbie Cadbury, Ruth Healey, rh John Osborne, Kate Ali, Rushanara Callaghan, Amy Hendrick, Sir Mark Oswald, Kirsten Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cameron, Dr Lisa Hendry, Drew Owatemi, Taiwo Amesbury, Mike Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hill, Mike Owen, Sarah Anderson, Fleur Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hillier, Meg Peacock, Stephanie Ashworth, Jonathan Chamberlain, Wendy Hobhouse, Wera Pennycook, Matthew Bardell, Hannah Champion, Sarah Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Perkins, Mr Toby Barker, Paula Chapman, Douglas Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Phillips, Jess Beckett, rh Margaret Charalambous, Bambos Hollern, Kate Pollard, Luke Begum, Apsana Cherry, Joanna Hopkins, Rachel Powell, Lucy Benn, rh Hilary Clark, Feryal Hosie, Stewart Qureshi, Yasmin Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, Daisy Howarth, rh Sir George Rayner, Angela Black, Mhairi Cooper, Rosie Huq, Dr Rupa Reed, Steve Blackford, rh Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Hussain, Imran Rees, Christina Blackman, Kirsty Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jarvis, Dan Reeves, Ellie Blake, Olivia Cowan, Ronnie Johnson, Dame Diana Reeves, Rachel Blomfield, Paul Coyle, Neil Johnson, Kim Reynolds, Jonathan Bonnar, Steven Crawley, Angela Jones, Darren Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Brabin, Tracy Creasy, Stella Jones, Gerald Rimmer, Ms Marie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cruddas, Jon Jones, rh Mr Kevan Rodda, Matt Brennan, Kevin Daby, Janet Jones, Ruth Saville Roberts, rh Liz Brock, Deidre David, Wayne Kane, Mike Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, Alan Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Brown, Ms Lyn Davies-Jones, Alex Kendall, Liz Sheppard, Tommy Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Day, Martyn Khan, Afzal Slaughter, Andy Bryant, Chris De Cordova, Marsha Kinnock, Stephen Smith, Alyn Buck, Ms Karen Debbonaire, Thangam Kyle, Peter Smith, Cat Burgon, Richard Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lake, Ben Smith, Jeff Butler, Dawn Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Nick Byrne, Ian Doogan, Dave Law, Chris Smyth, Karin 1197 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1198

Spellar, rh John Turner, Karl Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca Starmer, rh Keir Twigg, Derek Crouch, Tracey Harrison, Trudy Stephens, Chris Twist, Liz Daly, James Hart, Sally-Ann Stevens, Jo Vaz, rh Valerie Davies, David T. C. Hart, rh Simon Stone, Jamie West, Catherine Davies, Gareth Hayes, rh Sir John Streeting, Wes Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Dr James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Stringer, Graham Whitford, Dr Philippa Davies, Mims Heappey, James Sultana, Zarah Whitley, Mick Davies, Philip Heaton-Harris, Chris Tami, rh Mark Davis, rh Mr David Whittome, Nadia Henderson, Gordon Tarry, Sam Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren Williams, Hywel Thewliss, Alison Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony Wilson, Munira Thomas, Gareth Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian Thomas-Symonds, Nick Winter, Beth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hobhouse, Wera Thomson, Richard Wishart, Pete Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard Thornberry, rh Emily Yasin, Mohammad Donelan, Michelle Hollinrake, Kevin Trickett, Jon Zeichner, Daniel Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip Double, Steve Holloway, Adam Question accordingly agreed to. Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Drax, Richard Howell, Paul proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Drummond, Mrs Flick Huddleston, Nigel proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Duguid, David Hudson, Dr Neil Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hughes, Eddie INSOLVENCY Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Jane That the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 Edwards, Ruth Hunt, Tom (Coronavirus) (Extension of the Relevant Period) Regulations Ellis, rh Michael Jack, rh Mr Alister 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1031), dated 23 September 2020, a copy of Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Javid, rh Sajid which was laid before this House on 24 September, be approved. Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jayawardena, Mr Ranil The House divided: Ayes 353, Noes 0. Eustice, rh George Jenkin, Sir Bernard Division No. 149] Evans, Dr Luke Jenkinson, Mark Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkyns, Andrea AYES Everitt, Ben Jenrick, rh Robert Adams, Nigel Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Dr Caroline Afolami, Bim Brine, Steve Farris, Laura Johnson, Gareth Afriyie, Adam Bristow, Paul Farron, Tim Johnston, David Ahmad Khan, Imran Britcliffe, Sara Farry, Stephen Jones, Andrew Aiken, Nickie Brokenshire, rh James Fell, Simon Jones, rh Mr David Aldous, Peter Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Fay Allan, Lucy Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Amess, Sir David Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Nick Jupp, Simon Anderson, Lee Buckland, rh Robert Ford, Vicky Kawczynski, Daniel Anderson, Stuart Burghart, Alex Foster, Kevin Kearns, Alicia Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Keegan, Gillian Ansell, Caroline Butler, Rob Frazer, Lucy Knight, rh Sir Greg Argar, Edward Cairns, rh Alun Freeman, George Knight, Julian Atherton, Sarah Campbell, Mr Gregory Freer, Mike Kruger, Danny Atkins, Victoria Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fuller, Richard Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Bacon, Gareth Carter, Andy Gale, rh Sir Roger Lamont, John Bacon, Mr Richard Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark Largan, Robert Badenoch, Kemi Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat Latham, Mrs Pauline Bailey, Shaun Cates, Miriam Gibb, rh Nick Leadsom, rh Andrea Baillie, Siobhan Caulfield, Maria Gibson, Peter Leigh, rh Sir Edward Baker, Duncan Chalk, Alex Gideon, Jo Levy, Ian Baker, Mr Steve Chamberlain, Wendy Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewer, Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Chishti, Rehman Glen, John Lewis, rh Brandon Barclay, rh Steve Churchill, Jo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewis, rh Dr Julian Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baynes, Simon Clarke, Mr Simon Graham, Richard Loder, Chris Bell, Aaron Clarke, Theo Grant, Mrs Helen Logan, Mark Benton, Scott Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grayling, rh Chris Longhi, Marco Beresford, Sir Paul Clarkson, , Chris Lopez, Julia Berry, rh Jake Cleverly, rh James Green, rh Damian Lopresti, Jack Bhatti, Saqib Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffith, Andrew Lord, Mr Jonathan Blackman, Bob Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffiths, Kate Loughton, Tim Blunt, Crispin Colburn, Elliot Grundy, James Mackinlay, Craig Bone, Mr Peter Collins, Damian Gullis, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Bottomley, Sir Peter Cooper, Daisy Halfon, rh Robert Maclean, Rachel Bowie, Andrew Costa, Alberto Hall, Luke Mak, Alan Bradley, Ben Courts, Robert Hammond, Stephen Malthouse, Kit Bradley, rh Karen Coutinho, Claire Hancock, rh Matt Mangnall, Anthony Brady, Sir Graham Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott Brereton, Jack Crabb, rh Stephen Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie 1199 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1200

May, rh Mrs Theresa Seely, Bob PUBLIC HEALTH Mayhew, Jerome Selous, Andrew That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self- Maynard, Paul Shannon, Jim Isolation) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1045), McCartney, Jason Shapps, rh Grant dated 27 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, rh Alec House on 28 September, be approved. McVey, rh Esther Simmonds, David The House divided: Ayes 333, Noes 1. Menzies, Mark Skidmore, rh Chris Division No. 150] Mercer, Johnny Smith, Chloe Merriman, Huw Smith, Greg AYES Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Adams, Nigel Clarke-Smith, Brendan Millar, Robin Smith, rh Julian Afolami, Bim Clarkson, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Solloway, Amanda Afriyie, Adam Cleverly, rh James Milling, rh Amanda Spencer, Dr Ben Ahmad Khan, Imran Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Mills, Nigel Spencer, rh Mark Aiken, Nickie Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stafford, Alexander Aldous, Peter Colburn, Elliot Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stephenson, Andrew Allan, Lucy Collins, Damian Moore, Damien Stevenson, Jane Amess, Sir David Costa, Alberto Moore, Robbie Stevenson, John Anderson, Lee Courts, Robert Moran, Layla Stewart, Bob Anderson, Stuart Coutinho, Claire Mordaunt, rh Penny Stewart, Iain Andrew, Stuart Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Morris, Anne Marie Stone, Jamie Ansell, Caroline Crabb, rh Stephen Morris, David Streeter, Sir Gary Argar, Edward Crosbie, Virginia Morris, James Stride, rh Mel Atherton, Sarah Crouch, Tracey Morrissey, Joy Sturdy, Julian Atkins, Victoria Daly, James Morton, Wendy Sunderland, James Bacon, Gareth Davies, David T. C. Mumby-Croft, Holly Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Gareth Mundell, rh David Syms, Sir Robert Badenoch, Kemi Davies, Dr James Murray, Mrs Sheryll Thomas, Derek Bailey, Shaun Davies, Mims Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Throup, Maggie Baillie, Siobhan Davis, rh Mr David Neill, Sir Robert Timpson, Edward Baker, Duncan Davison, Dehenna Nokes, rh Caroline Tolhurst, Kelly Baker, Mr Steve Dinenage, Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Tomlinson, Justin Baldwin, Harriett Dines, Miss Sarah O’Brien, Neil Tomlinson, Michael Barclay, rh Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Offord, Dr Matthew Tracey, Craig Baron, Mr John Docherty, Leo Olney, Sarah Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Baynes, Simon Donelan, Michelle Opperman, Guy Trott, Laura Bell, Aaron Dorries, Ms Nadine Parish, Neil Truss, rh Elizabeth Benton, Scott Double, Steve Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tugendhat, Tom Beresford, Sir Paul Dowden, rh Oliver Pawsey, Mark Vickers, Martin Berry, rh Jake Doyle-Price, Jackie Penning, rh Sir Mike Vickers, Matt Bhatti, Saqib Drax, Richard Penrose, John Villiers, rh Theresa Blackman, Bob Drummond, Mrs Flick Percy, Andrew Wakeford, Christian Blunt, Crispin Duguid, David Philp, Chris Walker, Sir Charles Bone, Mr Peter Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Pincher, rh Christopher Walker, Mr Robin Bottomley, Sir Peter Eastwood, Mark Poulter, Dr Dan Wallis, Dr Jamie Bowie, Andrew Edwards, Ruth Pow, Rebecca Warburton, David Bradley, Ben Ellis, rh Michael Prentis, Victoria Warman, Matt Bradley, rh Karen Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Pritchard, Mark Watling, Giles Brereton, Jack Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Pursglove, Tom Webb, Suzanne Bridgen, Andrew Eustice, rh George Quince, Will Whately, Helen Brine, Steve Evans, Dr Luke Randall, Tom Wheeler, Mrs Heather Bristow, Paul Evennett, rh Sir David Redwood, rh John Whittaker, Craig Britcliffe, Sara Everitt, Ben Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Whittingdale, rh Mr John Brokenshire, rh James Fabricant, Michael Richards, Nicola Wiggin, Bill Browne, Anthony Farris, Laura Richardson, Angela Wild, James Bruce, Fiona Fell, Simon Roberts, Rob Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Katherine Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Craig Williamson, rh Gavin Buckland, rh Robert Fletcher, Mark Robinson, Mary Burghart, Alex Fletcher, Nick Rosindell, Andrew Wilson, Munira Wilson, rh Sammy Burns, rh Conor Ford, Vicky Rowley, Lee Butler, Rob Foster, Kevin Wood, Mike Russell, Dean Cairns, rh Alun Francois, rh Mr Mark Wragg, Mr William Rutley, David Carter, Andy Frazer, Lucy Wright, rh Jeremy Sambrook, Gary Cartlidge, James Freeman, George Young, Jacob Saxby, Selaine Cash, Sir William Freer, Mike Scully, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Cates, Miriam Fuller, Richard Caulfield, Maria Gale, rh Sir Roger NOES Chalk, Alex Garnier, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Chishti, Rehman Ghani, Ms Nusrat Churchill, Jo Gibb, rh Nick The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Clark, rh Greg Gibson, Peter proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Clarke, Mr Simon Gideon, Jo proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Clarke, Theo Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl 1201 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1202

Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Dean Timpson, Edward Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Rutley, David Tolhurst, Kelly Gove, rh Michael Logan, Mark Sambrook, Gary Tomlinson, Justin Graham, Richard Longhi, Marco Saxby, Selaine Tomlinson, Michael Grant, Mrs Helen Lopez, Julia Scully, Paul Tracey, Craig Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Seely, Bob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Green, Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Selous, Andrew Trott, Laura Green, rh Damian Loughton, Tim Shannon, Jim Truss, rh Elizabeth Griffith, Andrew Mackinlay, Craig Shapps, rh Grant Tugendhat, Tom Griffiths, Kate Mackrory, Cherilyn Shelbrooke, rh Alec Vickers, Martin Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel Simmonds, David Vickers, Matt Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan Skidmore, rh Chris Villiers, rh Theresa Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit Smith, Chloe Wakeford, Christian Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Greg Walker, Mr Robin Hammond, Stephen Mann, Scott Smith, Henry Wallis, Dr Jamie Hancock, rh Matt Marson, Julie Smith, rh Julian Warburton, David Hands, rh Greg May, rh Mrs Theresa Solloway, Amanda Warman, Matt Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Spencer, Dr Ben Watling, Giles Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Spencer, rh Mark Webb, Suzanne Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Stafford, Alexander Whately, Helen Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Stevenson, Jane Whittaker, Craig Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Stevenson, John Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Stewart, Bob Whittingdale, rh Mr John Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Wiggin, Bill Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Streeter, Sir Gary Wild, James Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel Williams, Craig Higginbotham, Antony Milling, rh Amanda Sturdy, Julian Williamson, rh Gavin Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Sunderland, James Wood, Mike Holden, Mr Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Syms, Sir Robert Wright, rh Jeremy Hollinrake, Kevin Mohindra, Mr Gagan Thomas, Derek Young, Jacob Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Damien Throup, Maggie Zahawi, Nadhim Holloway, Adam Moore, Robbie Holmes, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny NOES Howell, John Morris, Anne Marie Howell, Paul Morris, David Walker, Sir Charles Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Question accordingly agreed to. Hughes, Eddie Morton, Wendy Hunt, Jane Mumby-Croft, Holly The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Hunt, Tom Mundell, rh David proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Jack, rh Mr Alister Murray, Mrs Sheryll proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Javid, rh Sajid Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Neill, Sir Robert PUBLIC HEALTH Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse of England, North East and North West of England and Obligations Jenkyns, Andrea O’Brien, Neil of Undertakings (England) etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 Jenrick, rh Robert Offord, Dr Matthew (S.I., 2020, No. 1057), dated 30 September 2020, a copy of which Johnson, Dr Caroline Opperman, Guy was laid before this House on 30 September, be approved. Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen The House divided: Ayes 332, Noes 4. Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Division No. 151] Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike Jones, Fay Penrose, John AYES Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Adams, Nigel Bailey, Shaun Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Afolami, Bim Baillie, Siobhan Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Afriyie, Adam Baker, Duncan Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Ahmad Khan, Imran Baker, Mr Steve Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca Aiken, Nickie Baldwin, Harriett Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Aldous, Peter Barclay, rh Steve Knight, Julian Pritchard, Mark Allan, Lucy Baron, Mr John Kruger, Danny Pursglove, Tom Amess, Sir David Baynes, Simon Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will Anderson, Lee Bell, Aaron Lamont, John Randall, Tom Anderson, Stuart Benton, Scott Largan, Robert Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Andrew, Stuart Beresford, Sir Paul Latham, Mrs Pauline Richards, Nicola Ansell, Caroline Berry, rh Jake Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Argar, Edward Bhatti, Saqib Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Atherton, Sarah Blackman, Bob Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Atkins, Victoria Blunt, Crispin Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Bacon, Gareth Bone, Mr Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Bacon, Mr Richard Bottomley, Sir Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rowley, Lee Badenoch, Kemi Bowie, Andrew 1203 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1204

Bradley, Ben Fletcher, Mark Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Nick Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca Brine, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Bristow, Paul Frazer, Lucy Knight, Julian Pritchard, Mark Britcliffe, Sara Freeman, George Kruger, Danny Pursglove, Tom Browne, Anthony Freer, Mike Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Lamont, John Randall, Tom Buchan, Felicity Gale, rh Sir Roger Largan, Robert Redwood, rh John Buckland, rh Robert Garnier, Mark Latham, Mrs Pauline Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Burghart, Alex Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leadsom, rh Andrea Richards, Nicola Burns, rh Conor Gibb, rh Nick Leigh, rh Sir Edward Richardson, Angela Butler, Rob Gibson, Peter Levy, Ian Roberts, Rob Cairns, rh Alun Gideon, Jo Lewer, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Carter, Andy Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Brandon Robinson, Mary Cartlidge, James Glen, John Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew Cash, Sir William Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rowley, Lee Cates, Miriam Gove, rh Michael Loder, Chris Russell, Dean Caulfield, Maria Graham, Richard Logan, Mark Rutley, David Chalk, Alex Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Sambrook, Gary Chishti, Rehman Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Saxby, Selaine Churchill, Jo Green, Chris Lopresti, Jack Seely, Bob Clark, rh Greg Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Selous, Andrew Clarke, Mr Simon Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Shannon, Jim Clarke, Theo Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Shapps, rh Grant Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Shelbrooke, rh Alec Clarkson, Chris Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Simmonds, David Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Skidmore, rh Chris Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Smith, Chloe Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Greg Colburn, Elliot Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Smith, Henry Collins, Damian Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Smith, rh Julian Costa, Alberto Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Solloway, Amanda Courts, Robert Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Spencer, Dr Ben Coutinho, Claire Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Spencer, rh Mark Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Stafford, Alexander Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Crosbie, Virginia Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Stevenson, Jane Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Stevenson, John Daly, James Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Stewart, Bob Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Streeter, Sir Gary Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Milling, rh Amanda Sturdy, Julian Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Sunderland, James Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Syms, Sir Robert Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Mohindra, Mr Gagan Thomas, Derek Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Damien Throup, Maggie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam Moore, Robbie Timpson, Edward Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny Tolhurst, Kelly Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Morris, Anne Marie Tomlinson, Justin Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul Morris, David Tomlinson, Michael Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Tracey, Craig Dowden, rh Oliver Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, Eddie Morton, Wendy Trott, Laura Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Jane Mumby-Croft, Holly Truss, rh Elizabeth Duguid, David Hunt, Tom Mundell, rh David Tugendhat, Tom Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister Murray, Mrs Sheryll Vickers, Martin Eastwood, Mark Javid, rh Sajid Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Vickers, Matt Edwards, Ruth Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Neill, Sir Robert Villiers, rh Theresa Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline Wakeford, Christian Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse Walker, Mr Robin Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Andrea O’Brien, Neil Wallis, Dr Jamie Eustice, rh George Jenrick, rh Robert Offord, Dr Matthew Warburton, David Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline Opperman, Guy Warman, Matt Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Watling, Giles Everitt, Ben Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Webb, Suzanne Fabricant, Michael Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Whately, Helen Farris, Laura Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike Wheeler, Mrs Heather Fell, Simon Jones, Fay Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John 1205 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1206

Wiggin, Bill Wood, Mike Eustice, rh George Johnston, David Wild, James Wright, rh Jeremy Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Andrew Williams, Craig Young, Jacob Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, rh Mr David Williamson, rh Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim Everitt, Ben Jones, Fay Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus NOES Farris, Laura Jupp, Simon Fell, Simon Kawczynski, Daniel Brady, Sir Graham Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Fletcher, Katherine Kearns, Alicia Stringer, Graham Walker, Sir Charles Fletcher, Mark Keegan, Gillian Fletcher, Nick Knight, rh Sir Greg Question accordingly agreed to. Ford, Vicky Knight, Julian The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Foster, Kevin Kruger, Danny proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Frazer, Lucy Lamont, John proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Freeman, George Largan, Robert COMMUNITY INFRASTRUCTURE LEVY Freer, Mike Latham, Mrs Pauline That the draft Community Infrastructure Levy (Amendment) Fuller, Richard Leadsom, rh Andrea (England) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this Gale, rh Sir Roger Leigh, rh Sir Edward House on 28 September, be approved. Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian The House divided: Ayes 324, Noes 188. Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Division No. 152] Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian AYES Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Logan, Mark Adams, Nigel Carter, Andy Glen, John Longhi, Marco Afolami, Bim Cartlidge, James Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Afriyie, Adam Cash, Sir William Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Aiken, Nickie Cates, Miriam Graham, Richard Lord, Mr Jonathan Aldous, Peter Caulfield, Maria Grant, Mrs Helen Mackinlay, Craig Allan, Lucy Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Amess, Sir David Chishti, Rehman Green, Chris Maclean, Rachel Anderson, Lee Churchill, Jo Green, rh Damian Mak, Alan Anderson, Stuart Clark, rh Greg Griffith, Andrew Malthouse, Kit Andrew, Stuart Clarke, Mr Simon Griffiths, Kate Mangnall, Anthony Argar, Edward Clarke, Theo Grundy, James Mann, Scott Atherton, Sarah Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gullis, Jonathan Marson, Julie Atkins, Victoria Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Bacon, Gareth Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hall, Luke Mayhew, Jerome Bacon, Mr Richard Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hancock, rh Matt Maynard, Paul Badenoch, Kemi Colburn, Elliot Hands, rh Greg McCartney, Jason Baillie, Siobhan Collins, Damian Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Baker, Duncan Costa, Alberto Harris, Rebecca McVey, rh Esther Baker, Mr Steve Courts, Robert Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Barclay, rh Steve Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Baron, Mr John Crabb, rh Stephen Hayes, rh Sir John Metcalfe, Stephen Baynes, Simon Crosbie, Virginia Heald, rh Sir Oliver Millar, Robin Bell, Aaron Crouch, Tracey Heappey, James Miller, rh Mrs Maria Benton, Scott Daly, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Milling, rh Amanda Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Mills, Nigel Berry, rh Jake Davies, Gareth Henry, Darren Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bhatti, Saqib Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Blunt, Crispin Davis, rh Mr David Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Robbie Bone, Mr Peter Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Mordaunt, rh Penny Bowie, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Adam Morris, Anne Marie Bradley, Ben Dines, Miss Sarah Holmes, Paul Morris, David Bradley, rh Karen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Morrissey, Joy Brady, Sir Graham Docherty, Leo Howell, Paul Morton, Wendy Brereton, Jack Donelan, Michelle Huddleston, Nigel Mumby-Croft, Holly Bridgen, Andrew Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil Mundell, rh David Brine, Steve Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Murray, Mrs Sheryll Bristow, Paul Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Britcliffe, Sara Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Tom Neill, Sir Robert Brokenshire, rh James Drax, Richard Browne, Anthony Drummond, Mrs Flick Jack, rh Mr Alister Nokes, rh Caroline Bruce, Fiona Duguid, David Javid, rh Sajid Norman, rh Jesse Buchan, Felicity Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil O’Brien, Neil Buckland, rh Robert Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard Offord, Dr Matthew Burghart, Alex Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark Opperman, Guy Burns, rh Conor Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Andrea Parish, Neil Butler, Rob Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenrick, rh Robert Paterson, rh Mr Owen Cairns, rh Alun Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Dr Caroline Pawsey, Mark 1207 Deferred Divisions 21 OCTOBER 2020 Deferred Divisions 1208

Penning, rh Sir Mike Stewart, Bob Eshalomi, Florence Miliband, rh Edward Penrose, John Stewart, Iain Esterson, Bill Mishra, Navendu Philp, Chris Streeter, Sir Gary Evans, Chris Moran, Layla Pincher, rh Christopher Stride, rh Mel Farron, Tim Morden, Jessica Poulter, Dr Dan Sturdy, Julian Farry, Stephen Morgan, Stephen Pow, Rebecca Sunderland, James Fletcher, Colleen Morris, Grahame Prentis, Victoria Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Fovargue, Yvonne Murray, Ian Pritchard, Mark Syms, Sir Robert Foxcroft, Vicky Murray, James Pursglove, Tom Thomas, Derek Foy, Mary Kelly Nandy, Lisa Quince, Will Throup, Maggie Furniss, Gill Nichols, Charlotte Randall, Tom Timpson, Edward Gardiner, Barry Norris, Alex Redwood, rh John Tolhurst, Kelly Gill, Preet Kaur Olney, Sarah Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tomlinson, Justin Glindon, Mary Onwurah, Chi Richards, Nicola Tomlinson, Michael Green, Kate Oppong-Asare, Abena Richardson, Angela Tracey, Craig Greenwood, Lilian Osamor, Kate Roberts, Rob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Greenwood, Margaret Osborne, Kate Robertson, Mr Laurence Trott, Laura Griffith, Nia Owatemi, Taiwo Robinson, Mary Truss, rh Elizabeth Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Sarah Rosindell, Andrew Tugendhat, Tom Haigh, Louise Peacock, Stephanie Rowley, Lee Vickers, Martin Hamilton, Fabian Pennycook, Matthew Russell, Dean Vickers, Matt Hardy, Emma Perkins, Mr Toby Rutley, David Villiers, rh Theresa Harman, rh Ms Harriet Phillips, Jess Sambrook, Gary Wakeford, Christian Harris, Carolyn Pollard, Luke Saxby, Selaine Walker, Sir Charles Hayes, Helen Powell, Lucy Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Shannon, Jim Wallis, Dr Jamie Hendrick, Sir Mark Rayner, Angela Shapps, rh Grant Warburton, David Hill, Mike Reed, Steve Shelbrooke, rh Alec Warman, Matt Hillier, Meg Rees, Christina Simmonds, David Watling, Giles Hobhouse, Wera Reeves, Ellie Skidmore, rh Chris Webb, Suzanne Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Reeves, Rachel Smith, Chloe Whately, Helen Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Smith, Greg Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hollern, Kate Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Hopkins, Rachel Rimmer, Ms Marie Smith, rh Julian Whittingdale, rh Mr John Howarth, rh Sir George Rodda, Matt Solloway, Amanda Wiggin, Bill Huq, Dr Rupa Sharma, Mr Virendra Spencer, Dr Ben Wild, James Hussain, Imran Sheerman, Mr Barry Spencer, rh Mark Williams, Craig Jarvis, Dan Slaughter, Andy Stafford, Alexander Wood, Mike Johnson, Dame Diana Smith, Cat Stephenson, Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy Johnson, Kim Smith, Jeff Stevenson, Jane Young, Jacob Jones, Darren Smith, Nick Stevenson, John Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Gerald Smyth, Karin Jones, rh Mr Kevan Spellar, rh John NOES Jones, Ruth Starmer, rh Keir Kane, Mike Stevens, Jo Abbott, rh Ms Diane Chamberlain, Wendy Keeley, Barbara Stone, Jamie Abrahams, Debbie Champion, Sarah Kendall, Liz Streeting, Wes Ali, Rushanara Charalambous, Bambos Khan, Afzal Stringer, Graham Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Clark, Feryal Kinnock, Stephen Sultana, Zarah Amesbury, Mike Cooper, Daisy Kyle, Peter Tami, rh Mark Anderson, Fleur Cooper, Rosie Lammy, rh Mr David Tarry, Sam Ashworth, Jonathan Cooper, rh Yvette Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Thomas, Gareth Barker, Paula Corbyn, rh Jeremy Lloyd, Tony Thomas-Symonds, Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Coyle, Neil Long Bailey, Rebecca Thornberry, rh Emily Begum, Apsana Creasy, Stella Lynch, Holly Trickett, Jon Benn, rh Hilary Cruddas, Jon Madders, Justin Turner, Karl Betts, Mr Clive Cummins, Judith Mahmood, Mr Khalid Twigg, Derek Blake, Olivia Cunningham, Alex Malhotra, Seema Twist, Liz Blomfield, Paul Daby, Janet Maskell, Rachael Vaz, rh Valerie Brabin, Tracy David, Wayne Matheson, Christian West, Catherine Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Geraint McCarthy, Kerry Whitehead, Dr Alan Brennan, Kevin Davies-Jones, Alex McDonald, Andy Whitley, Mick Brown, Ms Lyn De Cordova, Marsha McDonnell, rh John Whittome, Nadia Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Debbonaire, Thangam McGinn, Conor Wilson, Munira Bryant, Chris Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh McKinnell, Catherine Winter, Beth Buck, Ms Karen Doughty, Stephen McMahon, Jim Yasin, Mohammad Burgon, Richard Dowd, Peter McMorrin, Anna Zeichner, Daniel Butler, Dawn Dromey, Jack Byrne, Ian Duffield, Rosie Question accordingly agreed to. Byrne, rh Liam Eagle, Ms Angela The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Cadbury, Ruth Eagle, Maria proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Campbell, rh Sir Alan Elliott, Julie proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Elmore, Chris

381WH 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 382WH Freedom of Religion or Belief accepted me with open arms, and my parents taught me Westminster Hall the values of respect, kindness and individual responsibility, which helped to give me an opportunity to serve my Wednesday 21 October 2020 home town as its Member of Parliament and a chance now to serve its community. [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary stated at the time of my appointment: Persecution of Christians and Freedom of “A staggering 83% of the world’s population live in nations where religious freedom is threatened or banned. It is an area Religion or Belief where the UK can and must make a difference.” 9.30 am Those were the words of our Foreign Secretary.According to a Pew Research Center report, 84% of the world’s Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I remind hon. population claim to identify themselves with a religion. Members that there have been some changes to normal I agree with the BBC’s chief international correspondent: practice in order to support the new call list system and “If you don’t understand religion—including the abuse of to ensure that social distancing can be respected. Members religion—it’s becoming ever harder to understand our world.” should sanitise their microphones, using the cleaning I thank the Prime Minister for his personal commitment materials provided, before they use them, and should during my time in office and for his keen interest in my respect the one-way system around the room. Members work. For example, when I sent an update note to the should speak only from the horseshoe. Members may Prime Minister on the work that I was doing, I got a speak only if they are on the call lists. That applies even note back saying, “The Prime Minister very much if debates are under-subscribed. Members may not join appreciates what you have put in the update note. Can a debate if they are not on the call list. Members are not you clarify point x?” One does not need to know what expected to remain for the winding-up speeches. point x is; that shows the Prime Minister’s personal Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I interest in the note that had gone in and that he wanted beg to move, to know more about the work that was being done. That this House has considered progress on the Bishop of In 2018, the Prime Minister also personally supported Truro’s independent review on persecution of Christians and my campaign for the UK Government to grant asylum freedom of religion or belief. to Asia Bibi, a Christian mother of five who was being It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, persecuted in Pakistan for her faith, in an abuse of the Mr Hollobone, and I am grateful to Mr Speaker for blasphemy laws. I thank Members of Parliament from granting me the opportunity to have this Westminster all parties for being absolutely amazing champions in Hall debate. As colleagues from across the House know, promoting FORB in Parliament; I see them in Westminster I led on the implementation of this report and on Hall today. championing freedom of religion or belief as the Prime I also thank my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or for his personal support for my work as the Prime belief. I led on this work across Government from Minister’s special envoy. I thank him right from the September 2019 to September 2020. I stepped down outset for going to the extent, as the Minister knows, of from that role because of a policy difference with the saying that, as a special envoy, I was entitled to attend Government. It was on a matter of principle regarding ministerial meetings on a Tuesday to give updates on the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and my personal FORB. The personal support that I received from him commitment to respecting the rule of law. in this role was absolutely superb, and I thank him At the outset of this debate, I would like to thank my through the Minister; I have already thanked him personally, right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for giving me a but I thank him again now. chance to serve as his special envoy covering issues of Likewise, it was a real pleasure to work with Ministers freedom of religion or belief, which are dear to my from across the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development heart. I know that they are also dear to the Prime Office on this top priority for the Government, and I Minister’s heart, and he made FORB a top priority for thank all the excellent officials who I worked with on the Government. the FORB team at the Foreign Office. I came to this country in 1984 at the age of six and as I also personally thank four other individuals. Someone the son of an imam. My family and I were able to coming in as a special envoy is given a team of civil practise our faith openly and freely and were welcomed servants to work with, which is great, but I wanted with open arms in Gillingham. A moral duty on me, experts, so I said that I would like to appoint my own whether in Parliament, as envoy or in everyday life, is to four experts to advise me on delivering the 22 different stand up for the rights of individuals from minority recommendations. There is a recommendation on the faiths around the world, so that they are able to practise United Nations Security Council resolution, which I their faith or belief openly and freely, as I did in will turn to later. I am not an expert on the United Gillingham and as I do now in my home towns of Nations Security Council, so who should I have appointed? Gillingham and Rainham. I was very fortunate to have Sir Mark Lyall Grant, the I am most grateful to His Grace Archbishop Ian United Kingdom’s former ambassador to the United Ernest, the director of the Anglican Centre in Rome, for Nations, a brilliant national security adviser and a pointing me towards Jeremiah 29: 4-8, from the Bible, former director general at the Foreign Office; I see the which he said means, “You should welcome all people, Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Cardiff regardless of colour, creed or background, to your city, South and Penarth (), nodding with and when you join that city,you work hard for co-existence approval. Sir Mark is a brilliant former diplomat, so I in that city, so that the area prospers.” Gillingham was very lucky to have him on my advisory board. 383WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 384WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [Rehman Chishti] For me, freedom of religion or belief is a fundamental right for everyone. It is crucial for a peaceful, prosperous, I was also lucky to have Sir Malcolm Evans, a professor virtuous society as well as being a national security from the University of Bristol and a member of the priority. When I came in, I split the delivery of the Foreign Secretary’s advisory board on human rights, as different recommendations into short-term, medium-term well as Dr Naz Ghanea from Oxford University, who is and long-term deliverability, after I had consulted Bishop brilliant on human rights and intersectionality on FORB Philip. I had the report and I asked myself the question, issues and women’s issues across the board. Finally, I “What is behind this report and these recommendations?” was fortunate to have Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, a I met Bishop Philip to ask, “How can we take these former bishop in Pakistan and also Bishop of Rochester, forward? Whydid you come up with that recommendation? so he covers all the jurisdictions and issues that face What did you have in mind when you designed that individuals. recommendation?” His advice and counsel, from the I turn now to the report from the Bishop of Truro. As outset and throughout, has been outstanding. colleagues from all parties know, the Bishop of Truro’s There were challenges during the year. We had a independent review was commissioned by the previous general election, which meant we were away from Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Parliament for a bit, and there was covid-19. From South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), on 26 December March, covid-19 meant that resources and officials 2018, to consider the persecution of Christians around working on this area were deployed elsewhere, to a the world. As I see it, the review was a direct response to certain extent, and rightly so. They were dealing with wide-ranging reports that the suffering of Christians covid-19 and making sure that our citizens were brought globally and especially that of Christian minorities is of back from different parts of the world. I thank the such a scale and intensity that it can no longer be Foreign Secretary and Foreign Minister for doing a ignored by the Government or other actors. I thank my great job and getting 1.2 million of our citizens back to right hon. Friend the former Foreign Secretary for the UK. commissioning that report. The review was carried out by the Bishop of Truro, On 13 September 2020, after one year in office, 17 of Philip Mounstephen, and his team: Sir Charles Hoare, the Truro recommendations were either fully implemented David Fieldsend and Rachael Varney. On 9 July 2019, or progressed. How did I come up with those Bishop Philip published his report, which made 17 recommendations? It is important to have accountability. 22 recommendations. This Government, like the previous In July this year, we had a new head of freedom of Government of Prime Minister May, accepted those religious belief, Juliet, a brilliant official tasked with 22 different recommendations in full. overseeing all of the FORB work. I asked her to review I thank Bishop Philip for his excellent work and every aspect of the work that I led on, because there detailed report. As the report, which I have here with needed to be accountability for my work. me, spells out on page 4: I asked Juliet to look at the different recommendations “Across the globe, in the Middle East, Asia and Africa, Christians across the board because by July, when I gave evidence are being bullied, arrested, jailed, expelled and executed. Christianity to the yearly review with Bishop Truro, there were is by most calculations the most persecuted religion of modern 11 recommendations that may have been classed as times.” moving forward into the category of implemented or That is a statement from Bishop Philip, who was asked fully implemented, but I wanted someone to independently by our Government to carry out a report into the scale look at that. On 7 September, Juliet, as the head of of persecution of Christians around the world. FORB, and said that 17 recommendations could be One needs to look at the work and the data of classed as fully implemented or progressed. excellent NGOs such as Open Doors, Christian Solidarity Worldwide and Aid to the Church in Need—to name I will touch on some of those recommendations now. just a few—that I had the real pleasure of meeting and Recommendation 1 says: interacting with, because best policy is made when we “Ensure FoRB…alongside other human rights and values, is speak to, listen to and engage with people on the central to FCO operation,” ground, and our NGOs do that. and talks about a “Diplomatic Code.” When I read the I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for report, my first question was. “What do we mean by a Chipping Barnet (). She organised the diplomatic code? Bishop Philip, what do you mean by a Open Doors event that was attended by over diplomatic code?” He said, “It is an internal working 110 parliamentarians from across the House—Members programme for the Foreign Office.”It provides overarching of the Commons and Members of the Lords. That is objectives for the Foreign Office. why I say to the Government that in this Parliament the issue of religious freedom is a top priority among I then met the permanent secretary at the Foreign parliamentarians, and so is the delivery of this report, Office and said, “This is the recommendation. This is which I will shortly outline. what is designed to be delivered. Can we look at how we It would not be fair of me if I did not refer to what take this forward?” He said, “Rehman, one of the Bishop Philip said on page 7 of his report. He wrote: objectives we have at the Foreign Office at the moment “To argue for special pleading for one group over another is promoting freedom of religion or belief for all.” In would be antithetical to the Christian tradition. It would also, the Foreign Secretary’s evidence to the Foreign Affairs ironically, expose that group to greater risk. We must seek FoRB Committee last week, he gave a three-winged approach for all, without fear or favour.” on freedoms—FORB freedom, media freedom and The report and its recommendations, which I was taking Magnitsky sanctions. On the framework, I asked officials forward for the Government, were designed to protect to come back by December with a recommendation of and stand up for freedom of religion or belief for all. how it could be taken forward. 385WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 386WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief The next recommendation will take a bit of time, Professor Mariz Tadros from CREID, the Coalition for Mr Hollobone, but it is important that I cover it for Religious Equality and Inclusive Development, who Members. It says: recently covered that point at the G20. “Articulate an aspiration to be the global leader in championing CREID has been doing vital work on covid-19 and FoRB”. the scapegoating of religious minorities in countries That is crucial. It is a top priority for our Government, such as India, Pakistan and Iraq. In Pakistan, CREID but what have we actually done to make it a top provided poor sanitation workers, predominantly from priority? How have we interacted with others around Christian backgrounds, with awareness training around the world? personal protective equipment. As well as providing the equipment, CREID conducted advocacy activities with When I advised the Government, it was a delight to the Government around the right to dignity, respect join the International Religious Freedom Alliance as a and protection. founding member in 2020. The IRFA is an organisation I see the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) of like-minded states that respect freedom of religion or sitting to my right. His report on minorities in Pakistan belief, as in article 18 of the declaration of human and his visit with Lord Alton was absolutely superb. I rights. It was launched in Washington by Secretary of thank him from the bottom of my heart for what he State Pompeo with over 20 members from states around does day in, day out, and for what he has done throughout the world. I had the pleasure of representing the United his career in Parliament. I also thank his colleagues on Kingdom at that meeting. the APPG. I have a small example. When I was the I pay tribute to Sam Brownback, United States envoy and I needed to know what was going on, I used ambassador-at-large for international religious freedom. to have Twitter alerts from the APPG to find out what He had a vision of creating an international alliance was going on. The guys on the APPG were absolutely that could take swift, quick and appropriate action with brilliant. Also, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for like-minded partners, and he made it a reality by getting Congleton () for her report on minorities in the alliance set up. It has done work on covid-19 and the Pakistan. challenge that we face.Wesit here in Parliament representing On the canonisation of St John Henry Newman, a constituencies. Our constituents have faced challenges great British saint who made a global impact, we were and difficulties, but some citizens around the world at the Holy See. We had an APPG delegation there at have suffered more than others under covid-19 for being the time. We also had His Royal Highness the Prince of a member of a religious minority. So what has the Wales leading the United Kingdom delegation. We had alliance been doing? two Secretaries of State representing the United Kingdom The alliance helped religious prisoners of conscience Government and we had the Prime Minister’s special in Yemen and worked to get prisoners of conscience in envoy. I thank our brilliant ambassador to the Holy See, the Baha’i community released. In Eritrea, religious Sally Axworthy, for the way in which the celebrations prisoners of conscience were released. On speaking to were conducted. If colleagues have not had a chance Ambassador Brownback at the weekend, I learnt that to read His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales’s October 1,679 religious prisoners of conscience in Uzbekistan 2019 article in The Tablet on interfaith at the time of the have been released with the direct involvement of the canonisation of St John Henry Newman, I strongly alliance and the work of Ambassador Sam Brownback, suggest that they do, and I thank him for his work on and it would be unfair of me not to mention the work of interfaith dialogue. I will come to the Minister in due the UN special rapporteur on freedom of religion or course. belief, Ahmed Shaheed. I thank them all. For the UK to be a leader on FORB prompts the question of whether the United Kingdom will host the Before I stepped down I was fortunate to be the international ministerial conference on freedom of religion vice-chairman of the international alliance, having helped or belief. I went to the United States and said, “Hey, the to create it, and the members had asked if I would serve United Kingdom would like to host that conference.” as co-vice-chair with Ambassador Jos Douma from the Other countries wanted to do it, but the United States Netherlands, who did a terrific job on the campaign to said that the United Kingdom could do it. We decided get the Baha’is released in Yemen. Another issue that on 2021 for the full conference, but then the decision we faced was how to get like-minded countries to make came back and officials said, “It will be in 2021, but a statement on the persecution of individuals around I understand that given covid-19, COP26 is being moved the world, and there was a covid-19 statement from to 2022. Would you do it?” I did not think we should 18 countries. have a virtual semi-conference; there should be a full I must highlight what minorities around the world conference. I spoke to counterparts in the United States have faced during covid-19. First, some Governments to ask whether another country could step in in 2021, have used the pandemic to further repress religious and the United Kingdom in 2022. The Foreign Secretary minorities. Secondly, religious minorities are often accepted my advice. It would be great if the Minister discriminated against when it comes to the provision of could say exactly when in 2022 the United Kingdom food, aid and healthcare. Thirdly,some religious minorities will host that conference. are being blamed for the spread of covid-19 and are Recommendation 2 was for the United Kingdom to: targeted as a result. Fourthly,online propaganda campaigns “Advocate that member states introduce a Special Envoy position are targeting religious minorities. Fifthly, technology is for FoRB”. being used to further repress, discriminate or surveil The first country that I visited as the envoy, on transit to religious minorities. That is why the United Kingdom the Holy See, was Bahrain, a Muslim-majority country alone cannot make a difference. We have to work with that has a good track record on interfaith, mutual like-minded partners through multilateral fora, which is co-existence. It has had a Hindu temple for 200 years what the alliance did. I want to give a huge thanks to and churches for over 100 years. The vicar from my 387WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 388WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [Rehman Chishti] ethnic and geographic marginalities affecting women who belong to religious minorities in six contexts. CREID constituency, Reverend Chris Butt, had been the vicar has also been working on countering hate speech online, at St Christopher’s Cathedral in Bahrain just prior to which can often have severe violent consequences in real my visit. I asked His Majesty King Hamad whether time. If colleagues have not seen it, the research is Bahrain would appoint a special envoy for freedom of available in documents such as the ones I have here. It is religion or belief. I was pleased that one of the last crucial that that research is taken into account when meetings that I had in my official capacity was with the Foreign Office officials, and those who were in DFID, Foreign Minister of Bahrain in early September and he make policy. said, “His Majesty has considered your request, and Recommendation 6 would establish permanently the Bahrain will appoint a special envoy for freedom of role of the special envoy. Peter Jones was appointed a religion or belief in due course.” director-level champion on FORB and he did a terrific Recommendation 3 is to job and I thank him for his support. Based on my “Name the phenomenon of Christian discrimination”. experience, my advice to the Government, as we look to The decision on that recommendation was not made by appoint a new envoy, is to consider how we make the the envoy.Research was allocated to Archbishop Angaelos post most effective. The Minister is terrific; he is a great of the Coptic Christian Church. Through the John Minister. However, the work on FORB and the Truro Bunyan fund for freedom of religion and belief, 15 projects review is led by an envoy, and an envoy does not have were given money to conduct research on FORB. He the authority to shape or make policy; an envoy does put forward a submission, and he has a strong track not have the authority to come before Parliament to record on freedom of religion or belief. The research answer questions on why certain decisions have been was carried out by his team, and I hear that there were taken on certain countries; an envoy may pick up an mixed representations. Some want a name for the issue on the alliance and try to put it through the phenomenon of Christian persecution, and some do system, but he does not have the authority for political not, but the recommendation was from Archbishop or policy steering. Therefore, my advice to the Government Angaelos, not me as the envoy. The key thing from him and to whoever comes in next is to give the role the was saying that there should be a recognition of the maximum authority possible by ensuring that that person phenomenon of Christian persecution. I accept that the has that authority and is answerable to Parliament. most persecuted faith in the world is the Christian faith, When I was the envoy, I used to read all the debates and we should advocate our policy with that in mind. introduced by Members, and it was a pleasure to read them. If whoever comes in as the Government’s key Recommendation 4 is lead on FORB, they should have the authority to be “to gather reliable information and data on FoRB to better accountable to Parliament for the decisions that they inform the development of international policy.” make about different countries. I am pleased to say that recommendation 4 is another Recommendation 7 would: that has been adopted and is now part of business as “Ensure that there are mechanisms in place to facilitate an usual at the Foreign Office. Research continues, but let immediate response to atrocity crimes, including genocide” me say this: various projects funded by the John Bunyan and would set up an early-warning system. I was advised fund, which I will discuss in greater detail, will also feed by the FORB team that the United Kingdom already into the delivery of recommendation 4. Furthermore, I has a strategy to deal with early-warning signs and was delighted to meet representatives of the Religious genocide but I refer colleagues to the speech made by Freedom Institute in Washington earlier this year. With my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob the help of the funding from the FCDO Magna Carta Stewart) in the previous Westminster Hall debate led by fund, it has developed a highly sophisticated online tool the hon. Member for Strangford. It was a powerful to gather simple, meaningful, accessible, reliable and speech and highlighted the need to get the early-warning timely smart data on religious freedom landscapes across system right. In the seventh paragraph of his speech in the globe. That is how we got the data from the work the debate on the large-scale persecution of religious or with the RFI, and the strategy that was applied. The racial minorities on 12 March, the hon. Member for smart tool collects data in 17 countries and aims to Glenrothes (Peter Grant) highlighted the issues that lead focus on collecting detail in a very localised way. to intolerance and hatred going to their ultimate extent. CREID has also produced some excellent work in The work on the subject is being undertaken by the this area, including a working paper titled “Humanitarian FORB team and a note was to reach the envoy in and Religious Inequalities: Addressing a Blind Spot”, December. However, the alliance is crucial as part of which discusses religious inequalities being blind in that thematic work that I advised the Government to humanitarian frameworks and how humanitarian actors join. The occurrence of mass atrocities targeting members can incorporate sensitivity to religious difference and of religious and ethnic minority groups has highlighted persecution into their programmes. the need for greater co-ordination among countries and Recommendation 5 would: a more robust response whether atrocities are perpetrated “Bolster research into the critical intersection of FoRB and by state actors, such as against the Rohingyas, minority rights” or by non-state actors, such as in Iraq by Daesh. The and gender issues. Again, I pay tribute to CREID and I alliance can serve as the mechanics to mobilise a response thank the Government for allocating in 2018 via DFID based on the principles of action in the joint declaration £12 million for research into security, economic activity of principles. That is the vision but before we do that, and religious hate content online. The CREID paper we can still work together to share good practice. “Invisible Targets of Hatred: Socioeconomically Excluded Recommendation 9 is to be prepared to impose Women from Religious Minority Backgrounds”addresses sanctions. I thank our sanctions team. Before we had the intersection of religious, gender, social, economic, the designations in July, Bishop Philip and I met the 389WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 390WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief sanctions team at the Foreign Office so that he could intolerance, hatred and non-violent extremism that lead explain recommendation 7. There was a FORB perspective to violent extremism? Weneed to make sure our diplomats on the designations and in the first designations were have that. We have some of the best diplomats in the two Myanmar generals. I read the debate on 12 October world; I have worked with them. However, they need to on China’s policy on the Uyghur people and seen the be given the right tools. United States’ position on the sanctioning of individuals When I came in, there was some support through the for the way the Uyghurs have been treated in Xinjiang LSE programme. Now, there is a Cambridge module on province. As a parliamentarian, do I think the line has religious literacy.However,tying in with recommendation 13 been crossed for the United Kingdom to designate to individuals in line with what the United States has done “deliver tailored responses to FoRB violations at Post level”, to members of the Chinese Communist party? The I have a recommendation for the Government. When I answer is yes. In this Parliament, Government needs to came in there were four priority countries, but I say take into account the views of parliamentarians. As the there should be 13 review countries. How do you identify envoy, I saw debate after debate: a freedom of religion a review country? I asked Sir Mark Lyall Grant, our debate on 12 March, 10 October and 6 February, and former ambassador—I am running close on time, but I the debate on 12 October 2020 on China’s policy on its shall be very brief in my summing up. Review countries Uyghur population. That debate says it all. are based on where the most significant infringement The United Kingdom has a moral obligation to do on FORB is taking place and where the United Kingdom the right thing and stand up for our global values: can make the most impact on it. I wrote to 24 different democracy, rule of law and liberty. That means taking missions with a view to getting 13 put into that category. that decisive, appropriate action. I know the Government We could, then, ensure that the diplomats going to have done that in Belarus with sanctions on certain those 13 countries had that tailored support. individuals, but my question to the Government now is: Recommendation 14: why wait? Wetook the decision and, on my understanding, “Ensure FCO human rights reporting”. designations were supposed to be every few months. We took an exceptional decision on Belarus, and rightly so. I am pleased to say that the annual human rights report Why are we not taking that decision on the Uyghur covers freedom of religion or belief in that regard. situation in China? My understanding of the Magnitsky Recommendation 17 is for sanctions is that, as global Britain, we are working with “The FCO to convene a working group for government our like-minded partners Canada and the United States. departments and civil society” The United States has designated individuals from the to engage. I am pleased to say that the FORB forum, Chinese Communist party on the sanctions list, with chaired by Bishop Truro, has recently been established visa restrictions, export restrictions, a ban on exporting by a diverse group of human rights NGOs, civil society to the US and business advice to US companies, cautioning organisations and faith groups. The UK FORB forum businesses about the reputational, economic and legal is a mechanism for civil society actors to engage with risk. As such, I say to the Minister that the United HM Government on the issue and ensure that egregious Kingdom should quickly and swiftly do the right thing. violations in both individual cases and systematic abuses Our great parliamentarian William Wilberforce is quoted are looked at. I thank Bishop Philip and the civil society on page 6 of Bishop Truro’s report: organisations for coming forward. “You may choose to look the other way, but you can never Among the final recommendations I want to cover, again say you did not know”. one concerns the annual event in support of the UN On that recommendation, future designations always international day on victims of religious violence. The need to consider FORB and I ask the Government United Kingdom supported Poland at the UN on that, to make that decision on exceptional grounds, quickly and carried out a Red Wednesday event, with Aid to the and swiftly. Church in Need. Buildings across Government Recommendation 10 is for Departments were lit in red. I spoke about that at “The Foreign Secretary to write to FCO funded ‘arm’s length’ Westminster Cathedral. bodies”. Recommendation 20 is for the United Kingdom to I am pleased to say the Foreign Secretary wrote to the secure a Security Council resolution on FORB. When I Westminster Foundation, Wilton Park and the British first came into office I advised and spoke to No. 10 and Council: done, done and done. I also highlight something the Foreign Secretary, and I spoke to and got a note crucial to colleagues: the Foreign Office-produced reports back from our mission in New York on a strategy to on conferences on protecting vulnerable religious minorities take forward that recommendation. I gave the Foreign in conflict; promotion of freedom of religion or belief; Secretary an update note on that in July. I am grateful tackling violence committed in the name of religion; and to the Foreign Secretary for accepting my advice on the fostering social cohesion in Nigeria. Nigeria will come strategy to take that recommendation forward. Before I up in the debate, and colleagues may highlight that. When left, that matter was on my desk. The United Kingdom I was the envoy, I said to officials “Let’s have a Wilton has the Security Council presidency in February next Park conference on Nigeria” and we had that. The year and I would like confirmation that the United documents are superb and highlight the United Kingdom Kingdom will move that motion then. and the Foreign Office’s commitment and good practice I am grateful to colleagues for their amazing support and I ask colleagues that we move forward in that. and their championing of FORB, and I look forward to The next recommendation is number 11, to ensure working with them on this again as a parliamentarian. “both general and contextual training in religious literacy”. When I first came into office, that was one of my first Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I am obliged to goals. Unless our diplomats have the right training call the Front-Bench spokespeople no later than 10.31, across the board, how do they pick up the issues of which gives us 24 minutes of Back-Bench time, so I am 391WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 392WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)] the conflict. I urge the Minister to focus on those issues and work with excellent organisations such as Open going to impose a four-minute limit so that we can get Doors to take these matters forward. the contributions of the six Members in. The Scottish I wanted to speak about Pakistan; I dare say that I National party spokesman has generously volunteered will not have enough time to do so, but I can perhaps to limit his contribution to six minutes, but the guideline send the Minister a letter about that. I pay tribute to the limits for Her Majesty’s Opposition and the Minister work of all across our constituencies in the United are 10 minutes each, with two or three minutes at the Kingdom who champion these issues in their work, and end for Mr Chishti to sum up the debate. who provide such support for those who are in need internationally. 10.7 am 10.11 am Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve under Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): First, I pay tribute to your chairmanship today, Mr Hollobone, and to speak my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham in this extremely important debate. I thank the hon. (Rehman Chishti) for his tremendous work. The energy Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) and commitment that he has brought to the role of for the work that he has completed already. I am sure Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion that he will continue to be an assiduous advocate in or belief will be a hard act to follow, whoever is appointed Parliament of freedom of religious belief. He has spoken to succeed him. We all owe him a deep debt of gratitude. of detailed and extensive work, and it is heartening to We have heard much from my hon. Friend about the be shown how much work has been happening. It has progress that has been made in applying the been heartening, I am sure, for people in my constituency, recommendations of the Bishop of Truro’s report. I to hear of the progress being made; but what the hon. want to focus on one of those recommendations— Gentleman said also provided an outline for the recommendation 7, which makes reference to the crime Government of the important recommendations that above all crimes: genocide. In Article II of the 1948 need to be taken forward. convention on the prevention and punishment of the I want to thank the organisations that work in this crime of genocide, to which we are a signatory, genocide space: Open Doors, Aid to the Church in Need, and is defined as, Christian Solidarity Worldwide, to name just a few. I “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a also thank other hon. Members here today, who are national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. familiar faces from the all-party parliamentary group Recommendation 7 has two important components. on international freedom of religion or belief—particularly, The first is on early warning monitoring and the second of course, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), concerns the determination of genocide. who works tirelessly on the issue. Sadly, over many decades now, through many atrocities In much of the world, freedom of religion is, indeed, in different parts of the globe, both in this country and the linchpin on which other freedoms rest—such as the as part of the wider international community, we have freedom to congregate, freedom of speech, and freedom all too often failed to take note of genocide and to of expression. Those rights are interdependent and address it until it is too late. From the suffering of the absolutely inseparable. That is one of the reasons why Armenians in Turkey a hundred years ago, through the issue should be seen as such a priority for Government. the holocaust, the genocide in Rwanda, the suffering of It is not just because of the faith groups that depend so the Rohingya Muslims in Burma, the Yazidis in Syria heavily on Government to champion those freedoms, and Iraq, and the Uyghurs in China today, too often— across the United Kingdom; it is also for the whole of indeed, invariably—religious minorities are part of the society, because the other rights that non-religious groups equation when crimes against humanity and genocide and other organisations depend on rest solidly on the occur. foundation that has been set. As the report says, genocidal actions against Christians are high on the agenda of concern. The report contains In the couple of minutes I have, I want to focus a quote from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks: particularly on Nigeria. I understand that Fulani militants “The persecution of Christians throughout much of the Middle have carried out multiple raids on villages in Kaduna East, sub-Saharan Africa and Asia, [and] elsewhere is one of the and Plateau States. Thirty-two Christians who were crimes against humanity of our time.” obeying directives to stay at home during the humanitarian Yet, as I say, we fail to hold perpetrators to account or disaster of covid, to prevent the spread of the virus, recognise genocide. The UK does not have comprehensive were targeted in attempts to uproot the Christian early warning monitoring mechanisms and does not community from the area. Open Doors recorded one engage in genocide determination. Without that, we fail local Christian who said: to trigger our duty under the convention. As a signatory “If people are going to stay in their homes during the COVID-19 to that convention, we are required to act to prevent pandemic, they need to feel safe from attacks like this.” genocide and to protect those affected, but only if there I think we can echo that sentiment. is a judicial determination of genocide. It was a sad Open Doors notes that there is an urgent need to failure in 2016, when I was privileged to bring a motion engage with representatives of organisations that work to the House on this issue, that we failed to persuade the to secure freedom of religious belief in places such as Government to act, even though that determination Nigeria, where persecuted Christians are incredibly was passed by a majority—indeed, unanimously. vulnerable—that was highlighted in the recent APPG How do we break this circular argument that only the report, “Nigeria: Unfolding Genocide?”—and where courts can determine genocide, and without that we the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office cannot refer this internationally? In recent years, one still refuses fully to recognise the religious dimension of way in which Lord Alton in the Lords and I in the 393WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 394WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief Commons have endeavoured to do that is through our In everything we do as representatives in this place, private Members’ Bills, the Genocide Determination we must work towards promoting and building cohesion Bills, which provide for the High Court to make a among all religious groups in the UK and across the preliminary finding on cases of genocide where, for world so that we can navigate this crisis as one, and example, an affected group refers a matter to it. That come out the other end better than we entered it. would facilitate a referral of such a finding to the International Criminal Court. 10.18 am The Trade Bill is being discussed in the Lords—this is Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): It is a great the single point that I want to make today—and pleasure to serve under your stewardship for the first amendment 76A, which takes proposals from the Genocide time, Mr Hollobone. I thank my hon. Friend the Member Determination Bill, requires that if a referral for a for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) for the declaration of genocide is made to the High Court by a great energy, intellect and compassion he has brought representative of a religious or ethnic group, for example, to this subject and his role as the Prime Minister’s envoy the Court must consider it and make a determination. on freedom of religion. Any trade agreement would then have to be voided if a I think we all agree that one of the cornerstones of signatory to it is a partner that has perpetrated genocide. the United Kingdom is our fundamental belief in the I urge the Government to support the amendment. individual’s right to live freely without fear, threat or harm, regardless of whether it is from other individuals 10.15 am or the state. Freedom of thought and belief is perhaps the most fundamental right, and sadly the one that is Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): It is a most at peril around the world. It truly saddens and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. pains me to witness the rise of persecution based on I thank the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham religious belief. It has been estimated that one third of (Rehman Chishti), the special envoy for religious freedom the population of the globe suffers from religious for the UK, for securing this important Westminster persecution, in whatever heinous form it takes. Hall debate. I and many of my Christian constituents, In absolute terms, Christians are the most persecuted and indeed members of all faiths in Coventry North of those groups, and they have been subject to violence, West, were pleased when we were told that there would extrajudicial killings, involuntary disappearances, social be a long-overdue independent review into the persecution persecution, the suppression of public expression and of Christians and the freedom of religion and belief. I attempts to cleanse regions of religious belief over a stand here representing Christians in my constituency, prolonged period. Sadly,during my time living in Pakistan and I denounce the human rights abuses facing Christians in support of the Pakistani army and Pakistani state on in Thailand, China, India and other places across the behalf of the British and American Governments, I saw globe. the deep link, which was referenced by my hon. Friend Earlier this year,I met a constituent from an organisation the Member for Gillingham and Rainham, between called the International Asian Christian Front, which religious exclusion and inequality and extremism, violent supports and advocates for persecuted Christians in extremism and terrorism. It is clearly there. Pakistan and India. They expressed concerns that covid- Unfortunately in Pakistan, martial law ordinance 19-related assistance is not going into predominantly XX, which was first promulgated to be used against Christian religious bodies in this country.Discrimination Ahmadis, is increasingly being employed to persecute and attempts to deprive people, on the basis of their Christians. Across the middle east, the birthplace of religion, of the health assistance they need in a pandemic Christianity, the persecution of Christians is seen at its are unconscionable, and I am sure that the Minister and very worst. One hundred years ago, Christians made up hon. Members agree. At such a precarious time, when at least 20% of the population across the middle east we should be banding together in solidarity and support, and north Africa. Today, that stands at a meagre 4%. swathes of our society are being left to fend for themselves Sadly, in many countries it is the state that drives simply because they adhere to a different faith. prejudice and discrimination against its Christian citizens. I am sure the Minister will join me in paying tribute In Egypt, Iran and Syria, church properties and properties to Open Doors, which provides support and assistance owned by Christians are confiscated or outright attacked, to persecuted Christians across the world. I am proud to and restricting Christians’ access to their places of support it. It shines a light on the Christians who face worship is common. In Iran and Turkey, incitement to injustice and discrimination on the basis of their faith, hatred against Christians has been observed on state- and it ensures that Members of this House are aware of sponsored media. Turkey’sChristians have been portrayed and can lend their support to those who need it most. as “not real Turks”, and various campaigns smearing I welcome the Government’s pace in implementing their beliefs have also been run. In China, the Communist the Bishop of Truro’s 22 recommendations. Will the party seeks to control what its citizens think and to Minister outline when they will be implementing the inhibit their ability to feel and believe. That is not only remaining recommendations? Will he also tell me what the case for Uyghur Muslims; Uyghur Christians are they are doing to support persecuted Christians who also being interred and persecuted. are being denied food aid in Bangladesh and India These regimes not only violate the sacred value of during the pandemic, nurses in the Gulf who have been freedom of religious belief but encourage non-state denied personal protective equipment, and those who actors to violate that freedom. That is a violation of have reportedly been attacked during lockdown in Nigeria? what Britain and decent, right-minded people everywhere For my Christian constituents of Asian heritage, will he cherish, champion and fight for. As we redetermine our tell me what the Government are doing to support place in the world following Brexit, a key part of global Asian Christians in the UK who do not have a church Britain must be defending the values that underpin our or community centre to call their own? society—namely pluralism, tolerance, diversity and 395WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 396WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [Imran Ahmad Khan] the first seven months of 2020 alone. The Chinese Government have also cracked down on other religious individual liberties—wherever they may be assaulted. groups: they have destroyed churches and harassed, Standing up to these nations and protecting the rights imprisoned and intimidated Christians. Even small church of individuals to live, work and worship as they please groups have been under terrible threat, and, worse still, will be vital. I am greatly appreciative of the Bishop of the independent China Tribunal found that there was Truro’s report’s shining a light on countries that fail to forced organ harvesting of prisoners of conscience: that do so. is Christians, Uyghur Muslims, Falun Gong and others. 10.22 am We really do have to grab China—in a nice way—by the lapels and tell it to get into line. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the What can we ask the Minister to do in relation to hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman that? I support amendment 68 to the Trade Bill, to Chishti) on securing the debate. My wife just texted me. which the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) We have a new grandchild, who was born at 11.50 pm referred. I confirm to the Minister that we are asking last night. We are up to five now. Perhaps the Shannons for pressure to be put on China. What is happening will be able on their own to vote their grandfather into about that? We have to address the face of evil that Parliament once again—I hope that I will be elected by China is, so that we can change things. While we may more votes than that, but that is by the way. I am look forward to the future, I pray and beseech that we pleased to speak in the debate. I declare an interest as make the right decision, and that our grandchildren will chair of both the all-party parliamentary group for look at us and say, “You spoke up when you should international freedom of religion or belief and the have done.” all-party parliamentary group for the Pakistani minorities. I put on the record my thanks to the hon. Gentleman 10.26 am for his tireless work. His door has always been open for a meeting, and his responses have always been excellent. Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): I thank my I thank him for that. I will do as he did and start off hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham with a Scripture text, from Romans 8:35, which asks, (Rehman Chishti) for all his tireless work on this cause “Who shall separate us from the love of God in Christ and for having secured this debate. I also thank the hon. Jesus? Shall tribulation, distress or persecution? No, in Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and congratulate all these things we are more than conquerors through him on the birth of his grandchild, who will, I am sure, Him who loved us.” bring much happiness. Covid-19 has exacerbated the plight of Christians I read with concern the deeply depressing final report and other religious minorities across the world, because submitted by the Bishop of Truro, which set out in stark they get blamed for the virus and for spreading it. I will terms the persecution faced by Christians around the speak up for the Jewish community, who have faced world. It seems perverse that Christians face greater dramatic increases in antisemitic hate speech as a result oppression now than at any other point in recent history. of covid-19. The office of special envoy for freedom of It is also an uncomfortable reality that the persecution religion or belief is so important. The Prime Minister of Christians is largely unacknowledged by leading has not appointed anybody to that post yet; I hope he Governments, for various reasons, but while we prevaricate, will soon. Christians across the globe are being attacked, harassed I put to the Minister the need for all the recommendations and killed because of their religious beliefs. As Members of the Bishop of Truro’s review to be implemented fully. will know, I believe freedom of religion to be a central Recommendation 11 is to do with making sure that the pillar of our civic society. As a Catholic, I can see the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office staff ways in which people of Christian faith enrich discourse who work in countries have the necessary training and and dialogue in the United Kingdom every single day. can make the most of their resources to address these However, in many countries, Christians are regarded violations. I encourage FCDO to incorporate civil society with suspicion, contempt, and often outright hostility. evidence submissions into their human rights and The persecution of Roman Catholics in Pakistan and democracy report-writing process. the People’s Republic of China are crimes that I have It is important to have that focus from the Department—I been following closely. Maira Shahbaz, a 14-year-old know it is there, and I am happy that the Minister will Catholic girl in Pakistan, was recently abducted, raped, confirm this, because I want it on the record—on the married to her abductor, and forcibly converted to Baha’is, Shias, Hindus, Armenians, Rohingyas, Jews, Islam. She is now on the run and at risk of being killed. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Ahmadis, Muslims and Coptic This is a disgusting situation. Regrettably, Pakistan’s Christians in all countries, but particularly in Iran, Iraq, recent record of protecting religious minorities, including Pakistan and Egypt. The focus is very much on the Christians, is woeful. I understand that Lord Ahmad of middle east, which I have had the opportunity to visit Wimbledon raised freedom of religion or belief with on occasion. Pakistan’s Minister for Human Rights and with the I also ask the UK Government to implement Governor of Punjab, but I urge the Government to keep recommendation 8, which is to be up the pressure on our Pakistani counterparts to ensure “prepared to impose sanctions against perpetrators of FoRB that authorities there seek justice for Maira, and guarantee abuses.” her future safety. The right of freedom of belief is enshrined in article 18 In the People’s Republic of China, the Chinese of the universal declaration of human rights. Communist party is waging the most severe, systematic In the case of China, we have often talked about the suppression of Christianity in that country for decades. Uyghur Muslims, but there are also the Tibetan Buddhists, In the past few years, the CCP has been destroying with over half a million labourers detained in camps in crosses, burning Bibles, shutting churches and ordering 397WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 398WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief followers to sign papers renouncing their faith. Only That is not just a romantic idea; it is enshrined in the state-approved Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association United Nations universal declaration of human rights, churches are allowed to exist, and Catholics have been which states: driven underground at great personal cost. It is no “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and wonder, then, that the Holy See recognises the Republic religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or of China as being the true representative of China: belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and Catholics can worship freely and openly in Taiwan, but in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, not in the PRC. Many Catholics are worried that the practice, worship and observance.” renewal of the secretive agreement between China and Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right, the Church damages Rome’s moral authority and puts which we should all honour and protect. As a Scottish Catholics in danger through its acquiescence to Beijing’s National party MP, I am not often proud to be a terms. I entreat this Government to work with the Westminster MP, but this is one of the few occasions Vatican and the PRC to stop the oppression of Catholics, when we come together and affirm our absolute belief and to legalise the Church in that country. in that freedom. Set against that background, the Bishop of Truro’s During the 2019 Backbench Business debate on this review was welcome and timely, and the Government’s topic, I offered my support and that of my party for the commitment to its recommendations will bring real Bishop of Truro’s report and all its recommendations. improvements to the lives of those persecuted because We, like others, are committed to ensuring that religious of their faith. I am pleased to note that more than half freedom is observed around the globe and that the of the recommendations have already been implemented, report’s recommendations are implemented in full in or are in the process of being implemented. I am order to attain that goal. particularly encouraged by the creation of a UK global As the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham human rights sanctions regime, responding to the set out, 17 out of 22 of the report’s recommendations recommendations in the report that we must impose have been, or are in the process of being, implemented. sanctions against those who persecute Christians. All hon. Members want them to be implemented as Furthermore, the launch of the John Bunyan Fund for quickly as possible. However, no one has been named as Freedom of Religion and Belief has funded 15 research a replacement for the hon. Gentleman as the Prime projects to look at the challenges facing different religious Minister’s special envoy. It is a crucial role and I urge communities among those Christians.That is great progress. the Government to fill the position as soon as possible, to ensure that this vital work can continue. The Government should visibly and robustly stand up for the rights of Christians everywhere. We must face As a nationalist MP, I appreciate that the Prime down oppression wherever we find it and protect the Minister is unlikely to take advice from me, and probably world’s most vulnerable, regardless of race, background rightly so. However, I advise the Government, in all or creed. I pray for my fellow Christians and will sincerity, that if they choose to appoint another MP as continue to fight for them in this House. the special envoy, they should seriously consider the hon. Member for Strangford, who does so much work 10.29 am in this field. There are examples of Members of other parties being appointed as special envoys. I ask the David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): It is a pleasure Minister to take that suggestion back to the Prime Minister. to see you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate The hon. Member for Strangford is a champion in this the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman field and would be an excellent candidate for the post. Chishti) on securing the debate and on all his work as Covid-19 has negatively impacted on Christian the Prime Minister’s special envoy. I also pay tribute to communities across the globe, with persecution continuing Mervyn Thomas, who stood down earlier this year as during this public health crisis. I have continued to work chief executive of Christian Solidarity Worldwide. He closely with Christian Solidarity Worldwide during the served that organisation with distinction for 40 years. pandemic and have been in touch with one of its Most of us who work in the field of FORB know what contacts in Uttar Pradesh, India. The contact, who a titan Mervyn Thomas is in the field. I am sure I speak shall remain anonymous for their safety, informed me on behalf of all hon. Members in wishing him well for of violent attacks that have taken place against Christians whatever comes next. worshipping. I was told that there were 60 cases of This debate has been excellent, with contributions persecution in 2019 and that a further 45 cases had from my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, already occurred by September this year, even with Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) and the covid-19 lockdown measures in place. hon. Members for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), for Coventry My contact also described how some police officers North West (Taiwo Owatemi), for Wakefield (Imran in the region have been biased against the Christian Ahmad Khan), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and for community. It is often a lottery as to which police Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford). officer receives the call and, therefore, how those Christians In my time as an MP, the issue of religious freedom who are worshipping will be treated. For example, if the has been close to my heart and to the hearts of my officer is sympathetic to the Christian faith, they will constituents. However, an image has stuck with me respond to the call; if not, there is often no response to from before my time as an MP. In 2011, in Egypt’s the attack, meaning that violent criminals often go Tahrir Square, Christians formed a human shield around without punishment. Muslims who were on their hands and knees praying. I know that the Government are probably fed up of For me, that is the essence of what freedom of religion hearing me complain about the situation in India, but and belief is all about: when people of different faiths we have to take stock of the fact that this is the world’s or no faith whatsoever come together in respecting each largest democracy, with an emerging middle class, but it other and upholding that freedom. is rising rapidly up the world watch list. I once again ask 399WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 400WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [David Linden] others across the House are not afraid to do so either and that they will also continue to speak up for those the Government to ensure that they raise this with the facing persecution. authorities in India. Around the globe, everyone should Sadly, there are far too many circumstances to mention be free to worship without fear of persecution. It is vital them all, but I will focus on a number. I will start by that the Government do everything in their power to talking specifically about the situation for Christians in condemn violent attacks against those worshipping, Nigeria, but given the events overnight, with your leave, and work together to protect freedom of religion. Mr Hollobone, I will briefly mention the shocking I am glad that the hon. Members for Congleton and scenes of brutality and violence at the Lekki toll plaza. for Strangford, and others, referred to the Trade Bill. I hope that the Minister can share the Government’s There is no doubt that, as the United Kingdom becomes response to those shocking scenes, not least because of global Britain and tries to find a new space on the world our strong relationship with Nigeria and its military stage, it has an opportunity to ensure that these issues and security forces. Amnesty has said that there is are not missed out in trade negotiations. I appreciate credible evidence of excessive use of force leading to the that in a trade negotiation we do not want to raise deaths of protesters. The action has been condemned things that will perhaps be controversial, but we should by the former US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, so never lose sight of the fact that freedom of religion or can the Minister tell us whether he and his colleagues belief and human rights should be at the top of the agenda. will be urgently speaking with the Nigerian high Weare faced with a unique moment in history.Between commissioner and their counterparts in the Nigerian Brexit talks and the pandemic, it is vital that we continue Foreign Ministry? It is crucial that they do so, given the to protect human rights and freedom of religion. It is horrific scenes overnight. crucial that during the crisis we continue to work towards I want to draw attention particularly to the concerns ensuring that the persecution of all religions, and of in Nigeria for Christians. We have heard from Christian those who have no religion at all, ends and that everyone Solidarity Worldwide of 50,000 Christians in southern around the globe is free to worship without fear. At the Kaduna state having to flee violence. We have heard unique moment of history in which we find ourselves from a number of Members, including through the we cannot lose sight of the values that mean the most to work of the APPG and the report that was mentioned, us, including the core belief that absolutely everyone of the violence between Fulani herders and settled should have the freedom to worship without fear. farming communities. In 2019, 1,000 Christians were killed. The International Crisis Group has pointed to 10.36 am more than 300,000 people being displaced, and, of Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ course, Nigerian human rights organisations have also Co-op): It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. been speaking out, saying that in 2015 up to I thank everybody for their incredibly strong and passionate 12,000 Christians were killed, with 350 deaths in just the contributions, as I would expect from the Members first two months of 2020. present. I commend the hon. Member for Gillingham There is also alarming persecution of religious minorities and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) for securing the debate by elements of the Nigerian state. There have been and for his work as the Prime Minister’s special envoy. arbitrary arrests of both Christian and humanist figures. I am sorry that he had to resign. For example, Professor Solomon Musa Tarfa was detained I thank the Bishop of Truro for his work and all the in Kano state, as was Mubarak Bala from the Nigerian organisations, many of which have been named, for the Humanist Association, whose case I have raised regularly work they have done in bringing attention to many of with the Minister for Africa, the hon. Member for these instances of persecution, particularly against Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge). Christians, around the world. I declare an interest as a There are many other worrying circumstances beyond Christian, and as someone who worked previously with those in Nigeria. We have heard about the circumstances Open Doors and a number of other organisations to of the Muslim Rohingya minority and the persecution highlight such cases, including working with Christians they face at the hands of the Myanmar authorities, and on the Left within my own party. about the situation for Rohingya Christians. The hon. It is, of course, disappointing that it has been a Member for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan) talked month since the resignation of the hon. Member for about that. There are approximately 1,500 Rohingya Gillingham and Rainham and the Government are yet Christians and they report that they have faced threats to appoint a special envoy. I hope that the Minister can and violence in camps, including an attack in January give us some news on that, because it is crucial and this year when a group of men attacked 22 Christian relates to at least four of the recommendations in the families, vandalised homes, looted personal property report of the Bishop of Truro. It is vital that we get that and smashed up a makeshift church and school. work back up and going, but I know that the hon. Member Of course, we have also seen attacks across the middle will continue to be a strong voice on these issues. east. We have heard about the persecution of Coptic The Bishop of Truro said very clearly at the start of Christians and the destruction of churches in Egypt. In the report: Algeria, there is an ongoing campaign of church closures “Across the globe…Christians are being bullied, arrested, jailed, against the Protestant Church of Algeria, which serves expelled and executed. Christianity is by most calculations the the Berber population—13 churches have been closed most persecuted religion of modern times. Yet Western politicians over the past three years. We have heard about the until now have been reluctant to speak out in support of Christians situation in Iran, where only Shi’a Muslims are allowed in peril.” to hold key political positions and there are continued We have seen the opposite today. Many of us are willing attacks on people who change or renounce their religious to speak out on these issues, and I know that many beliefs. Atheists, too, are affected. Many people whose 401WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 402WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief religious beliefs differ from those of the extraordinarily of religious minorities? Will specific country programmes repressive regime in Iran are at risk of arbitrary detention, in some of the contexts that we have mentioned today torture and the death penalty. face the chop? I certainly hope not, because that work is We have also heard about the situation in Pakistan, absolutely vital. where the blasphemy laws still carry the mandatory Recommendation 18 in the Bishop of Truro’s report death penalty and violate fundamental rights to the talks about a standard FORB scale of persecution. It freedom of expression, thought, conscience and religion. would be incredibly beneficial to have a clear scale of Rather than moving away from such violations, there escalation, so that the Government and others could has been an increase in attacks. Many individual cases formulate common approaches in advocating for persecuted are of deep concern to the organisations that have been Christians, especially in the very worst cases and situations. speaking out so powerfully on behalf of individuals, The freedom and right to believe and worship as one individual churches and others who have been affected. chooses, without threat of attack or sanction, whether There is also the situation in Sri Lanka, with the legal, financial, social or physical, is one of the most horrific attacks that we have just been marking. Those fundamental rights that we hold, but too often and in scenes have utterly shocked the world. The situation has too many places, we see both governmental and non- also worsened in places that have not been drawing governmental actors using division, hatred, sectarianism attention, such as Mozambique. The situation in the and persecution to advance their agendas, bolster support north of that country is deeply worrying. Recently, and eradicate dissent and freedom of thought. The UK monks in the north of the country have been forced to must stand boldly against such egregious abuse of human flee across the border to Tanzania after an attack on rights. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how their monastery in the district of Cabo Delgado. The the Government will be expanding their work to uphold deeply worrying rise in extremism there is, I am afraid freedom of religion and belief for all. to say, little noticed by the outside world. These freedoms are guaranteed by some of our most There are so many examples of religious persecution fundamental human rights global commitments: article 18 that it is difficult to do them justice. Organisations have of the universal declaration of human rights, article 18 been highlighting such atrocities. I mentioned the specific of the international covenant on civil and political Christian organisations, but organisations such Amnesty, rights, and the declaration on the elimination of all Human Rights Watch and many others have also been forms of intolerance and of discrimination based on leading efforts to draw attention to the circumstances religion or belief. There is of course a crucial UN special and to urge Governments around the world to act. rapporteur on these issues. There is the UN Human We heard about the situation with the Chinese Rights Council. Perhaps the Minister can say how we Communist party, including from the hon. Member for will be using our seat on the UN Human Rights Council Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford), who is no longer in to push these agendas forward. his place. The so-called sanitisation of religion, which Of course, all of this is underpinned by the UK was pushed by Premier Li at the National People’s remaining committed to the very highest standards of Congress in March 2018, has been on show and affects human rights, to the rule of law and to a proactive role not only Christians but other religious minorities, including in global human rights bodies. I am sorry to say that we Muslims, Buddhists and Taoists, and other non-religious have seen some drawing back from that in recent years. groups. The week-long disappearance of Catholic Bishop I hope that the Minister can reassure us that that will Shao Zhumin from Guangzhou diocese in Zhejiang was not be the case, that these programmes will continue to also very worrying. There is also the case of Guo Xijin be funded and that he and his colleagues will continue in Fujian province. When he fled state custody and went to use their full diplomatic muscle for global Britain to into hiding, having refused to bring his church under advance the case of persecuted Christians worldwide. theGovernment-runChinesePatrioticCatholicAssociation, the authorities in the diocese of Mindong began closing 10.46 am churches, installing surveillance cameras and evicting The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): It is a great priests who refused to be brought under official control. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. Of course,we cannot have this debate without mentioning I not only congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the absolutely shameful and disturbing atrocities that Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) on securing are being perpetrated against the Uyghur population in this debate, but commend him for his long-standing Xinjiang, who are facing a monstrous Government-co- commitment to freedom of religion or belief. I also ordinated programme of police surveillance, enforced thank him for his incredibly hard work over the last re-education, disappearances, internment and mass year as the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom detention. There are even shocking reports of forced of religion or belief. He gave us a fantastic run-through sterilisation. of his work over the last year—an exhausting year, by Having heard the powerful contributions made today, the sounds of it—and it was well worth the over-run on I want to put a few questions to the Minister. Obviously, his time, Mr Hollobone, to be able to hear about all the the Government have enacted a number of the Bishop work that he has done. There sure are big boots to fill in of Truro’s recommendations, including the launching that regard. My hon. Friend’s commitment to this agenda of the John Bunyan fund, but there have been cuts to has contributed hugely to the Government’s work in official development assistance budgets as a result of this area. It has been instrumental in the implementation the decline in gross national income, and we believe of more than half the Bishop of Truro’srecommendations. there are cuts that go beyond that. Can the Minister I also extend my gratitude to colleagues for their confirm what cuts will be happening and to what extent impassioned speeches today. I will try to respond to all there will be ongoing funding for the John Bunyan fund the points raised, although I suspect, given the time, and work will continue to focus on tackling persecution that that is wishful thinking. But I do have, to coin a 403WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 404WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief [Nigel Adams] recognising freedom of religion or belief as a force for good. Lord Ahmad has been working tirelessly on this phrase, an open-door policy at the FCDO and I will be and met our mission in New York a fortnight ago to more than happy to meet individual colleagues to go review the opportunities presented by our presidency of through some of the issues that I am not able to the Security Council in 2021. We are working harder respond on today. We have a great team there, working than ever to support those who are persecuted on on this agenda, and we will be more than happy to work account of their religion or belief and to implement the with everyone collaboratively where we are all on the recommendations of the Bishop of Truro. same page. Today’sdebate highlights why our efforts are so urgently I can start by reaffirming the Government’s unwavering needed. We have stepped up our work internationally as commitment to freedom of religion or belief. The one of the founding members of the new international commitment was further underlined by my right hon. Friend religious freedom or belief alliance—we have stood the Prime Minister’s appointment last year of my hon. together alongside 31 other states to protect freedom of Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham, who religion or belief. Again, I have to extend my gratitude succeeded my ministerial colleague Lord Ahmad of to my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Wimbledon, who continues to champion this cause in Rainham for his leadership on that. We have heard about his capacity as FCDO Minister responsible for human some of the excellent work that the alliance has delivered. rights, in the House of Lords. We will continue to use our influential voice to raise The Prime Minister is resolute in his commitment to FORB at the United Nations, including urging the freedom of religion or belief, and I can confirm that a international community to work together—we have new special envoy will be appointed in due course. I heard today how important that is—to face the challenges thought that the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David presented by covid-19. It is particularly important at Linden) was making a fantastic pitch for the job until this time to ensure that the most vulnerable and he pivoted and gave a great reference for the hon. disadvantaged members of society are actively included Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I ask colleagues in response and recovery efforts. to “bear with”, as my kids say. An appointment will be made by the Prime Minister shortly; he is absolutely Turing to some of the references made by right hon. committed to there being that role. Diplomacy and and hon. Members, we heard an excellent opening development go hand in hand. Religious intolerance speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and persecution are often at the heart of foreign and and Rainham, as I said. He asked whether we would development policy challenges. Where freedom of religion host the inter-ministerial global conference on FORB or belief is under attack, other human rights are often in 2022. We will announce a date for that conference in threatened too. The newly merged FCDO is using all its the coming months. diplomatic tools to ensure that no one suffers because My hon. Friend also talked about sanctions. One or of their conscience. two other Members mentioned our sanctions regime As the House is aware, the then Foreign Secretary, my and asked why we are not already implementing it right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey against certain individuals who are oppressing the Uyghur (Jeremy Hunt), commissioned an independent review population. We introduced the sanctions regime in July. into the scale of Christian persecution globally.It produced It gives us a powerful tool to hold to account those a set of challenging recommendations on what more the involved in serious human rights violations. We are Government could do to support people of all faiths constantly considering further designations under the and none everywhere around the world. So far, as we regime but, as hon. Members will appreciate, it would have heard, we have implemented, or are in the process be wrong to speculate exactly who may be designated, of implementing, 17 of the recommendations. I will run because to do so at this stage reduces the impact of any through just some of them. sanctions. Recommendation 11 focuses on the religious literacy The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and of our officials. I am pleased that work is under way to Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) referred to the excellent ensure that British diplomats and officials have access work of Open Doors, as did the spokesperson for the to enhanced religious literacy training to help them Opposition, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and understand the role that religion plays in many people’s Penarth (Stephen Doughty), who has worked with that lives and in the decisions that they make. That training organisation himself. He and other hon. Members also will help us to develop more religiously literate policies referred to what is going on in Nigeria. We are aware of and to engage more effectively. the reports of recent human rights violations involving Recommendation 9 is about the establishment of a the Special Anti-Robbery Squad, and recent incidents John Bunyan fund. In August last year, we launched the have prompted serious and widespread protests. Our fund successfully. In the first year alone, we funded high commissioner in Abuja has raised that with the 15 research projects looking at the challenges faced by Nigerian Government. We condemn all incidents of different communities, including Christians, Yazidis and inter-communal violence in Nigeria, which continue to humanists, as well as at cross-cutting issues such as have a devastating effect on communities of all faiths. migration and the double vulnerability experienced by women from minority faith backgrounds. The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Recommendation 20 encourages us to use our position Lesmahagow also referred to Pakistan, and I very much as a permanent member of the UN Security Council to look forward to receiving her letter. As I said earlier, I seek a resolution calling on Governments in the middle am happy to meet her with my team to go through that. east and north Africa to ensure protection of Christians My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona and other faith minorities. The Foreign Secretary remains Bruce) is a constant champion on this issue, and we absolutely committed to delivering that recommendation, thank her for all her work on it. She rightly mentioned 405WH Persecution of Christians and 21 OCTOBER 2020 Persecution of Christians and 406WH Freedom of Religion or Belief Freedom of Religion or Belief the genocide definition. Genocide has a specific definition will continue to stand up for the rights of minority in international law, and any judgment about whether communities around the world and defend the right to genocide has occurred is a matter for a judicial decision, freedom of religion or belief for everyone everywhere. but I thank her for rightly referring to it again. 10.58 am Fiona Bruce: Will the Minister give way? Rehman Chishti: I thank the Minister for that response, and I also thank colleagues. People of all faiths or Nigel Adams: I will, but I will probably end up not beliefs and none have the concept of forgiveness, and I covering everybody’s points. ask for forgiveness for going on for longer than I should have at the outset. Fiona Bruce: Will the Minister reassure us that he will consider the amendment to the Trade Bill, to which I can only do my job as envoy because of the fantastic more than one Member referred? work of parliamentarians pushing it at every level, and constituents. The first question I asked at the Foreign Office was where FORB is on the scale of correspondence. Nigel Adams: Yes. With regard to the Trade Bill, we I was told that it was the second-highest issue that have a strong history of safeguarding human rights and people write to the Foreign Office about after the middle promoting our values globally. Strong economic east peace process. It is fantastic that, when we speak to relationships with our partners allow us to have open officials, we can say, “This is what Parliament says, and discussions on a range of important issues, including this is what constituents say.” We have a duty to deliver human rights. We continue to encourage all states to and do everything we can on FORB. uphold their international human rights obligations. From our days of playing cricket for the House of The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Taiwo Commons cricket team, I know about the Minister’s Owatemi) spokepassionately about her personal experiences captaining—his brilliant strategy, frankness, openness of meeting constituents who have been discriminated and listening—and I thank him for all he does. I just against. I thank her for welcoming the pace at which the want to ask a couple of things. The FORB forum, led recommendations are being implemented. I can assure by Bishop Philip, is brilliant at getting NGOs together. her that the full set of recommendations will be implemented In addition to writing the letter for the new special by July 2022. We are very concerned about reports that envoy, the work it has done on China, Nigeria and Iraq some communities are being denied access to aid. My recently is absolutely crucial. It would be great if the colleague the Minister for human rights raised that Minister was able to meet with it and discuss that at its issue during the UK’s closing statement at the 44th session monthly meetings. of the UN Human Rights Council. I should mention recommendation 12: I thank the hon. Member for Strangford and my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan) “Establish a clear framework for reporting” for their passionate contributions. I congratulate the at post. That was more or less signed off in my time. I hon. Member for Strangford on the birth of his grandson. ask the Minister for the FORB toolkit to be shared My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander around the world. Stafford), who is no longer in his place, rightly raised the issue of Pakistan and China. The hon. Member for Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. Glasgow East made a well-thought-out and passionate Motion lapsed (Standing Order No.10(6)). speech, which was almost a great pitch for the special envoy’s role. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): In order to allow Before handing back to my hon. Friend the Member the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item for Gillingham and Rainham, I want to assure the of business and the safe arrival of those participating in House that the Government will continue to be a long- the next, I am suspending the sitting for two minutes. standing champion of human rights and freedoms. We have a duty to promote and defend our values of 11 am equality, inclusion and respect at home and abroad. We Sitting suspended. 407WH 21 OCTOBER 2020 Right to Food in Legislation 408WH

Right to Food in Legislation of food banks in York has increased by 300%. I agree with and support his call for a statutory right to food. 11.2 am Does he agree that, within that, everybody should be able to access a hot free meal every day? Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab): I beg to move, Ian Byrne: Absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly with That this House has considered the right to food in legislation. my colleague. That is a hugely important principle, I called this debate because of the humanitarian crisis which we should adhere to as a civilised society, and we we are seeing in every community and in every part of may discuss Marcus Rashford’s petition later. Having this nation. The crisis of food insecurity, which is leaving the right to food in law would hopefully result in people no MP’s constituency untouched, affects the basic human having the ability to have a hot meal a day. That is why I rights of millions of our citizens every day. We are am here today to discuss this topic. seeing a crisis of food poverty born out of the political The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee choices and systemic failings created over the past four recommended that the Government consult on whether decades, which have now reached a tipping point for so a right to food should be given a legislative footing to many in our communities. The figures are devastating ensure that the Government have a reference point for for one of the richest nations in the world and highlight action to tackle and measure food insecurity, with the the inequality of the UK in 2020. flexibility to meet that commitment using different measures. The Trussell Trust reports a soaring 81% increase in Some of the evidence from the Committee’s session was emergency food parcels from food banks in its network compelling. Professor Tim Lang, professor of food during the last two weeks of March 2020 compared policy at City, University of London, told the Select with the same period in 2019, including a 122% rise in Committee: parcels given to children as the coronavirus pandemic “If you do not have it in legislation, you do not have indicators continued to unfold. As long as I live, I will not forget and it does not happen.” meeting a community leader in Liverpool five minutes Anna Taylor, who is working with Henry Dimbleby on from my home and seeing what I thought was a queue the national food strategy,represented the Food Foundation for the bingo in my local community centre. There were at the evidence session. She added: people, young and old, drawn from across my community. “If we get the legal structures right, the governance arrangements I was corrected by the community leader, and told that, are right and Parliament is involved in scrutinising those, we will in fact, it was a queue for the food bank. It haunted me not be in the situation we have now with such high levels of unmet then, and it haunts me now, because it was so unfair and need.” so wrong. The second part of the national food strategy being The problem of escalating food poverty in the UK drawn up by Henry Dimbleby gives us a real opportunity can be fixed. We can see in the evidence available the to recommend the right to food, and I really hope he direct correlation between the cuts in Government welfare can be persuaded that it must be a key recommendation. spending and the numbers of families with children, The right to food should not be seen in isolation. pensioners,the working poor and homeless people queueing Having enough food for your family is part of a decent up for food parcels because of those cuts. Like austerity, standard of living. Hunger is a symptom of broader this is a political choice, not a pre-determined occurrence. social inequalities and rights violations, not least low-paid, Therefore, it cannot be fixed without a concerted effort insecure jobs and a broken social security system—all by the Government of the day to take clear responsibility of which have been exposed even further by the current in developing solutions and policy to eradicate the economic crisis under the pandemic. problem’s root cause. We need more voices like the inspirational Marcus Rashford, bringing the plight of (Cynon Valley) (Lab): In Wales, we are hungry children to the attention of the public and the hoping to pilot the universal basic income initiative, political classes. because, as my hon. Friend has just alluded to, prevention One key recommendation made by civil society is much better than cure in terms of food poverty. Does organisations and various independent experts, such as he endorse the recommendation of the Welsh Senedd United Nations committees, is to introduce a right to that it is now time to introduce universal basic income food into domestic law. That approach recognises that so that nobody has to go without food? the UK has ratified international treaties such as the international covenant on economic, social and cultural Ian Byrne: I do endorse that call. I am a huge supporter rights and three separate international conventions, of universal basic income. It should be looked at as one protecting children, women and people with disabilities, of the possible strands of the solution to what we are but has never incorporated them into domestic law. facing as a society. I hope the Government listen to Each of those treaties contains a specific mention of the some of the calls for universal basic income and look at right to food, yet those legally binding international different solutions. We are in extraordinary times at the treaties have limited influence and bearing in domestic moment. Universal basic income could be one of the courts. The right to food would need to be strengthened strands of the solution, so that we do not have 9 million by the establishment of a strong system of domestic people who are struggling to put a meal on the table. legal entitlements and the provision of easily accessible That is hugely important. accountability mechanisms that redress violations and As I said, the right to food should not be seen in contribute to the improvement of citizens’ wellbeing. isolation. We are living through extraordinary times and seeing a spotlight shone on the inequalities in society. Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I am According to the Independent Food Aid Network really grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing forward report, 82.7% of food banks in its sample that collected today’s debate. Since the start of the lockdown, the use relevant data 409WH Right to Food in Legislation21 OCTOBER 2020 Right to Food in Legislation 410WH

“indicated waiting on a benefit payment or decision as one of the might, for example, have quite a bit of food wastage in three most common reasons for food bank use, and 73.8% of food their production, and puts money into them. It also banks indicated interruption or reduction in benefit payments as goes to farmers who may have over-produced a crop. one of the three most common reasons for food bank use.” Instead of those farmers putting the crop back into the The solidarity shown during the covid-19 pandemic ground, Foodshare gives them the extra money they has been heartwarming, and it is one of the positives need to produce the crop so that they can give it to food that we can draw from the period, completely at odds banks. It has been doing that work with food banks with the ideology of Thatcher and the infamous quote across the country. Does he agree that there is enough about there being “no such thing as society”. That has food in this country to feed everyone, given all the waste been exemplified in grassroots mutual aid efforts across we have, and that the Government should put money the country, in all our communities, and we can all be into organisations such as Foodshare to help alleviate proud of that. I speak with personal knowledge from food insecurity? Fans Supporting Food Banks, an organisation started in Liverpool five years ago and built with the magnificent Ian Byrne: Absolutely. I am fully in agreement. I efforts of football supporters from across our nation, would be interested to find out more about that particularly Newcastle, Leeds, Burnley, Aston Villa, organisation, because that is exactly what we need to be Manchester United, Manchester City and West Ham. doing. We need to ensure that the food being produced That sort of collaboration has been absolutely magnificent is used and targeted. There are some fine organisations and has been welcome in our communities. that do that, alongside organisations such as FareShare, which we have talked about. There are plenty of Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I thank my organisations out there, but we need more of them and hon. Friend for all that he has done in working with the we need a more targeted approach. The waste in this football community and the broader community, and country is unforgivable when we have 9 million people even Man United fans—I declare an interest. He walks struggling with food insecurity. That is something we the walk and is passionate about the issue, but there are need to rectify. things we can all do together, collectively. We come here We have heard about the Leader of the House’s call to make a difference. We should not even be talking for bold and ambitions Bills. I can think of nothing about the right to food. Let us all come together and more bold than legislation that recognises the simple, make a difference. I pay homage to my hon. Friend and basic human right to food, which would help lift 9 million thank him. people out of food insecurity. Many more people will be Ian Byrne: Many thanks. Fans Supporting Food Banks following them over the next six months. I look forward says, “Hunger doesn’t wear club colours”. It certainly to working with colleagues to achieve that aim, because does not, and we have fantastic friends in Manchester regardless of political party, we surely all support that. and across the board, and solidarity with Manchester in It is the decent and right thing to do, and it is where we these troubling times. should be as a country. I also pay tribute to the trade unions that have been 11.15 am involved locally, such as the GMB north-west and Irish region, which has been magnificent in supplying help, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, aid and support. That is acting collectively, as my hon. Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): It is a great Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. said, to tackle food poverty in the communities they I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, West serve. It has been a joy to behold, but we cannot forget Derby (Ian Byrne) on securing such an important debate. that it is just a sticking plaster on a broken leg. I, too, enjoyed our chat about food charities before the Sabine Goodwin of the Independent Food Aid Network debate,and our previous conversations in the Environment, has said: Food and Rural Affairs Committee. I look forward to working with him over the coming winter, which we all “The amount of people needing to go to food banks is not remedied by food banks… The problem is a lack of income and a know will be a challenging time. lack of food. It stems from the fact that there is a level of poverty The last few months have highlighted to everybody that is being ignored.” the importance of access to food. I put on record my We cannot tinker around the edges of food insecurity. It thanks to all those who have kept the nation fed at this must be addressed head on with political courage and a difficult time, including the people who work for Fans morality that has been lacking in the past decade. Supporting Foodbanks, such as the hon. Member for Ensuring that millions of our fellow citizens do not go Liverpool, West Derby, who was too modest about the hungry and that their basic rights, including the right to work that he has done for that charity. I would like to food, are protected is a moral duty. Those things should thank the community fridges in my area, particularly be a legal right. the one run from Banbury mosque, which has done I thank the Minister. I enjoyed the chat we had, sterling work to feed Banbury during the pandemic. which was informative. I look forward to working with Later I will touch on FareShare, which has a depot in her. I also thank hon. Members who have attended the my constituency, and with which I have been pleased to debate. I note with interest that the Leader of the House work closely in my ministerial role. wrote to his Cabinet colleagues calling for bold and I was privileged to chair a cross-Whitehall ministerial ambitious Bills for the upcoming Queen’s Speech. taskforce—I wish it had not been necessary, but I was pleased to be involved—that was set up to ensure that Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): I know that my food and essential supplies reached the vulnerable during hon. Friend is about to conclude, but is he aware of a the pandemic. We worked with industry to smooth the charity called Foodshare? It goes around the country way wherever we could, including relaxing competition looking at food wastage, and deals with companies that laws and drivers’ hours. We worked on access issues. At 411WH Right to Food in Legislation21 OCTOBER 2020 Right to Food in Legislation 412WH

[Victoria Prentis] to work with major third sector organisations to refer vulnerable people to a variety of tailored services, including the beginning, that was very much physical access issues facilitating access to priority supermarket delivery slots. for people who were stuck at home, but we then moved I was pleased that in June we could announce an to focus more on economic access to food. additional £63 million-worth of food for local authorities The continuation of the taskforce is one of the in England that could be targeted at the vulnerable—at recommendations listed in Henry Dimbleby’s interim a local level, local authorities know who is struggling—so report, published in July this year. We are taking his that they could access food and other essentials. I had a recommendations very seriously. We have made a firm very useful meeting less than two weeks ago with the commitment to publish a food White Paper within six Trussell Trust and with the Children’s Society, and they months of his final report, which is due next spring. felt that that targeted fund was particularly useful and As part of our wider commitment to regular reporting was reaching those who needed it most. There is still on food, we have a duty under clause 19 of the Agriculture money available in the fund—possibly not in all areas, Bill—if and when it receives Royal Assent, which I hope but in many of the areas where that money has gone. I will be soon—that commits the Government to lay understand that money is still going out from that fund before Parliament a regular report containing an analysis and that it can continue to do so until the end of this of statistical data relating to food security, in the widest month. sense, in the UK. Rachael Maskell: I really appreciate what the Minister We listened to concerns raised, particularly from the is saying. We are on the cusp of seeing mass job losses, House of Lords, regarding the frequency of the food which is terrifying. The demand for food security will security report, so we have reduced the minimum frequency escalate sharply, so what additional support will be put of reporting from five to three years, but I stress that is a in place for local authorities? I agree that they know minimum. In times of real pressure on the national food best where the need is. Where will the additional support supply, it may well be appropriate to report much more come from? often. That is why I was so glad to have Henry Dimbleby’s interim report in July, which touched on the beginning Victoria Prentis: I thank the hon. Lady, who I am of the pandemic. The food security report is different proud to call a friend, for that intervention. I would and extra to Henry Dimbleby’s work on the national very much like to continue to work with her to identify food strategy, but both are useful to all of us who are particular areas of need. Work is going on across interested in this sphere, as we take this work forward. Government at the moment. The Secretary of State We all know that this is a very difficult time for took part in a cross-Government roundtable on food people across the country. Many households have felt a yesterday. Many of us will be in the Chamber later to real financial impact from coronavirus. That is why we, hear what Members from across the House have to say as a Government, have taken steps to ease the burden about access to food. I think we all recognise the scale where we can through targeted support, which includes of the problem. We need to continue to check that our income protection schemes, mortgage holidays and figures are right and that we know what is happening on additional support for renters. We have also injected the ground. It is important that we continue the work further spending into the welfare system, and approximately that we started this year. £9 billion of extra support has gone to people’s incomes I want to turn to the work being done by Marcus throughout the pandemic where possible. Rashford, who was referenced by the hon. Member for During the pandemic we have worked across Government Liverpool, West Derby. I welcome the establishment of to try to concentrate our effort, as the hon. Gentleman the new child food poverty taskforce. The Government asked, on people struggling to access and afford food. will carefully consider its recommendations as we approach In March we started the shielding scheme and supported the next spending review. I will not talk further about the 2.2 million people in England identified by the NHS free school meals now because I know that debate will as particularly vulnerable.Through our wholesaler partners, take place in the Chamber this afternoon. Brakes and Bidfood, 4.5 million boxes of essential food Beth Winter: The Welsh Government have announced were delivered to some of the most vulnerable people in that they will extend free school meals during school our society. holidays until spring 2021, which will cost £11 million. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural We do not have the resources, but we are finding them Affairs has always worked closely with the third sector because there is a desperate need for this. Surely it is to identify individuals who might need support to get now time for the UK Government to follow the Welsh essential food supplies. We talk regularly to volunteer Government’s lead and do the same. groups, food bank organisations and other redistribution charities, including FareShare, with which we have worked Victoria Prentis: I thank the hon. Lady for her particularly closely this year. In May it was an early intervention. I enjoy working with Lesley Griffiths, the recipient of a large sum of Government money to help Welsh Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural it to help the people it provides food to. We remain in Affairs, on food security issues—she was a valued member regular contact with FareShare and others across civil of my taskforce. I am sure that we will discuss that society to ensure that there is sufficient support for specific issue in the main Chamber this afternoon, but I those who need it. look forward to having further conversations with Lesley We know the difficulties that some families currently Griffiths and others about what we do as four nations face in accessing food and we continue to take steps to moving forward in this area. support them. Weknow that a large number of vulnerable The work that Marcus Rashford is doing to look into people rely on their friends, family and other community the current UK food system links in with the Government’s organisations. Where that is not possible, we continue commitment to develop a food strategy that will support 413WH Right to Food in Legislation 21 OCTOBER 2020 414WH the development of a food system that is sustainable, Support for People and Businesses resilient and affordable, and that we hope in time will in Wales: Covid-19 support people to live healthy lives, and protect animal health and welfare as well. In closing, I will further emphasise that the Government [SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] are committed to doing everything we can to support the most vulnerable to gain access to food, by having a 2.30 pm robust welfare system that provides a safety net where Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to move, needed, and by having policy interventions in place that can be implemented where needed. That this House has considered support for people and businesses in Wales affected by the covid-19 outbreak. Question put and agreed to. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I am pleased to have secured this debate and 11.26 am glad to see so many hon. Members from across the Sitting suspended. House who hope to contribute. I do not need to tell anyone that we are living in extraordinary times. No one foresaw the pandemic, and the virus, by its very nature, has been difficult to predict. In the absence of a vaccine, it seems as though the virus will be with us for a long time and that we will have to learn to live with it. That means trusting science. As always, we have those commentators who are suddenly experts in microbiology and seem to know better than the scientists. However, the debate must focus on how the Welsh economy will adapt to the new world in which we live. Ever since a national lockdown was announced in March, nearly every sector in my constituency—from the hairdresser, to the driving instructor and the estate agent—has written to me because they are worried about their future survival. Just last month, the Caerphilly county borough area, which includes Islwyn, was put into a further lockdown, which has only increased the financial pressure on businesses struggling to recover from the March lockdown. With the announcement of a firebreak—a two-week lockdown commencing at 6 pm on Friday—those fears have massively escalated. The firebreak lockdown proposed by the Welsh Labour Government is necessary in order to regain control of the virus, save lives and alleviate the pressure on the national health service, but the news of a lockdown has been a hammer blow for so many businesses already struggling to stay afloat. During my time as a Member of Parliament, I have worked with and come to know one of the Islwyn businesses under threat. Halletts Cider got in touch in March to ask for assistance in finding financial support. Since that time, it has been able to access a bounce back loan, but it now faces the worry of how to pay that back. As this crisis goes on, I fear that many people will be in a similar situation to Hallets, a company that many hon. Members will know well, as it has taken part in past events arranged by the all-party parliamentary group on cider, and it can be seen at many festivals around Wales and other parts of the country. It is a very good business, and I ask that the Treasury makes plans to address its concerns. I am concerned for businesses across the UK. It is vital that we do all we can to support them. As I said about Halletts, these businesses are completely viable in normal times—they are flourishing and thriving—but through no fault of their own they face huge financial uncertainty. The Welsh Government have worked hard to curtail this uncertainty, going above and beyond the work of the UK Government to offer the support that Welsh businesses needed. However, areas such as mine have not been able to function properly for a long time now, and this looks likely to continue, given the recent announcement of the two-week full lockdown. 415WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 416WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Chris Evans] In the phase of local lockdowns, the Welsh Government introduced a new local lockdown business fund. That The Welsh Government have done all they can to support is invaluable for areas such as mine that have support businesses, but at the end of the day it comes now been in local lockdown for over a month. The purpose down to one thing: finance. The Welsh Government can of the fund is to support businesses with cashflow offer support only within the confines of Barnett support, to help them to survive the economic consequences consequentials. However, that will only become more of the local restrictions that have been put in place in difficult given the need for a firebreak lockdown. Since their area. Businesses can apply for the fund when their the lockdown was announced, I have heard from more local area has been in lockdown for a minimum of businesses concerned about being unable to operate 21 days. It is administered by local authorities, which once again. I know that the Welsh Government will do are best placed to serve the needs of the community. I all they can to support those businesses, as they have want to thank the chief executive and leader of Caerphilly throughout the pandemic. However, I feel that the County Borough Council for their handling and Chancellor of the Exchequer can and should do more. management of the lockdown, as well as the vast number I place on the record my thanks to the Welsh Economy of staff who have been so helpful during the pandemic. Minister, Ken Skates, and I am sure that many Members The Welsh Government have also implemented targeted will agree. Whenever I have written to his office about support for childcare providers. At the beginning of the a business in my constituency asking for support, he pandemic I was contacted by several nurseries and has often arranged for members of his office to give the childcare providers in my area, who were understandably business a ring and talk through the options. I know concerned that if everyone worked from home their those businesses have found that help invaluable— services would no longer be required. Thanks to the and I include Halletts in that, after his office rang Welsh Government, they can now apply for a grant of Halletts within a couple of days of my asking them to £5,000 to cover any losses from April to June, when the give the business a call. The Welsh Government have strictest measures were in place. provided the most comprehensive and generous package Wales is a nation with many great assets that we can of financial support for businesses of all the UK’s be hugely proud of. One area that I am passionate about nations. To date, the Welsh Government’s economic is the promotion of tourism in Wales, and I am glad to resilience fund has given almost £300 million of support see that it is the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the to more than 13,000 businesses in Wales. That has hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) who helped to protect more than 100,000 jobs that were at will respond to this debate, as we spoke extensively in risk of being lost. Welsh Government Ministers have February about the development of a Henry VII trail, made available a £300 million support package for to encourage American tourists with an interest in British businesses affected by the firebreak, including additional history to come to Wales and see where Henry VII discretionary grants and support for smaller businesses landed before eventually becoming King. I pay tribute that are struggling. to the Minister for the encouragement that he and I believe that the Welsh Government are doing everything officials and other Members have given to trying to bring they can, but I am deeply concerned about the level of that to fruition. Unfortunately the pandemic brought communication with the devolved Governments. It has the talks to a crashing halt, but we were making progress. been nothing short of disappointing. Sometimes I think Tourism has been one of the industries hardest hit by that the Prime Minister needs to realise that we live in a the pandemic. Gareth Bates, who owns the Cardiff-based new world. Perhaps it is beyond his ideas of the 1940s tourism company Tours of Wales, has said that usually and ’50s, when the Prime Minister was all-powerful. about 50% of his customers are Americans, and so, as The fact is that there are three nations with their own he has not seen any of them, he has lost a portion of his Governments and leaders, and he has to talk to them. revenue. Some tourism companies have been able to recoup The UK Government should commit to more regular part of that loss through an increase in the number of and reliable engagement with those devolved Governments. tourists from other parts of the UK. As families could Simply put, the matter is too important for us not to be not holiday abroad, more of them turned to Wales for a singing from the same hymn sheet. summer holiday. However, this increase has not been Among new measures that the Welsh Government enough to meet the shortfall, with many hotel and have introduced is an increase in the flexibility of terms bed-and-breakfast owners wondering where their next for firms borrowing from the flexible investment fund booking is actually going to come from. of the Development Bank of Wales. The limit for that Local lockdowns and full lockdowns, such as the fund will be doubled from £5 million to £10 million. upcoming two-week lockdown in Wales, and the guidance The development bank will also have the discretion to not to travel unless absolutely necessary have made extend loan periods up to 15 years, which will help to fewer and farther between the number of UK travellers spread the cost of borrowing. Those are all helpful steps, hoping to holiday in Wales. This means that many but the measures that are coming in on Friday will strain business owners now face the prospect of losing not them to the absolute limit. only international customers but customers from elsewhere At the end of last month the Welsh Government in the UK, too. I am pleased to say that the Welsh announced that £140 million would be spend in grants Government have once again stepped in to help secure to Welsh businesses. Of that, £20 million has been these businesses by ring-fencing £20 million of support earmarked for tourism and hospitality businesses, while specifically for the tourism hospitality sector. businesses with a rateable value under £50,000 are able Some 34% of businesses in Wales have benefited from to apply for grants as well. Those are incredibly helpful Welsh or UK Government coronavirus support, compared measures for a huge number of businesses, but the next with only 14% in England. I believe that is a good thing. two weeks will mean that more help is needed. The Welsh Government are also taking additional steps 417WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 418WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 to ensure that covid support reaches those who need it Only the UK Government have the financial firepower most. They have announced that coronavirus support to guarantee the levels of support that workers need, will not be available to companies based in tax havens, despite the continual work of Welsh Ministers. Welsh thereby ensuring that coronavirus aid reaches the companies businesses need more generous payments to help their that need it most and that contribute to our economy workers through this crisis. The Welsh Government are fairly. That is why support needs to be provided in an clearly taking proactive steps and doing all they can to ethical way, ensuring that we reward companies that do support businesses, plugging gaps where UK support is the right thing and contribute. not sufficient. However, through no fault of its own, An example of the extra support offered by the Welsh Wales is struggling, despite the best efforts of the Welsh Government is the aid given to start-up firms, which are Government and of the residents to keep their businesses currently left out of the UK provisions for financial aid alive. relating to covid. The Welsh Government have not left It is time that proper consideration is taken in these businesses out in the cold. This is such an important Westminster as to the level of flexibility of aid that point, Mr Leigh, as the vast majority of our businesses should be offered, to ensure that businesses can continue in Wales are microbusinesses of one or two people. The to function and jobs can be retained over the coming fund for this aid is worth £5 million, with flexibility to winter. As Wales faces a two-week lockdown, this has increase this amount in the future, if needed. It will become even more urgent. Aid needs to be more targeted support start-up firms that fall outside of the UK and more flexible, to take into account the complexities Government’s self-employment income support scheme. of British businesses. Above all, that must happen right Under the UK scheme, businesses that were started now. within the last year do not qualify for the SEISS, and it is unclear whether that will be remedied or if other 2.45 pm provisions will be made for those affected. The Welsh Government are stepping in and providing crucial funding Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): It is a to recently established businesses so that they can continue pleasure to see you in the Chair,Sir Edward. I congratulate to trade through the pandemic. This will aid at least the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing 2,000 businesses that fall outside the UK Government’s this important debate. The last time he and I were in help schemes. Westminster Hall, he reminded me of a day we spent in Blackwood, walking to raise funds for Velindre Cancer Although every sector across the country has felt the Care, which at that time was treating the late Steffan economic hardship that covid has brought with it, I will Lewis, a great man and a Member of the highlight only some sectors today. There are recurring Senedd. We have sadly lost Steffan now, but every time I themes in the correspondence I receive from the people see the hon. Gentleman, I am reminded of that uplifting of Islwyn about certain areas that need help, or else face day and the collegiate, cross-party support that came closure.They are all related to gaps in the UK Government’s with it, which I hope will seep into this debate. schemes. As we are well aware, pubs and restaurants have been Coronavirus has devastated businesses across Wales. operating under varying levels of restriction since March. I am incredibly proud and thankful for the level of Restrictions on their opening times and capacity,guidance support that both Governments have made available. to limit contact with others, and public anxiousness Schemes such as the coronavirus business interruption all drastically cut footfall. Footfall is significantly lower loan scheme and the bounce back loan have directly even for those businesses that are capable of being supported businesses of all sizes right across Wales. opened. As we know, all these businesses will be closed Some 11,000 jobs in Brecon and Radnorshire have been completely during the coming weeks while the firebreak protected through the UK Government’sfurlough scheme. is in effect. These schemes have been a lifeline to businesses that In my own constituency of Islwyn, I have heard of have lost the ability to trade for the better half of a year, many local pubs and restaurants that have struggled with no clear end in sight. in the past few months. One pub was excluded from Every sector in Brecon and Radnorshire has lost out, furloughing staff because of the date that the landlady but I want to speak in particular for the tourism and took over, meaning that she had to choose between staff hospitality sector. Many of the most beautiful parts of not being paid or paying them and going into debt Wales can be found in my constituency. In a normal herself. The cut-off date for support seems completely year, they would draw hundreds of thousands of tourists arbitrary to me, and it puts new business owners, such from all corners of the United Kingdom and, indeed, as my constituent, in a difficult position. from around the world. For example,the small, independent I take issue with the lack of clarity in the Chancellor’s book shops in Hay-on-Wye attract thousands of visitors statements. Many people in Wales do not follow the each year, with the Hay festival being one of the world’s intricate details of what is and what is not devolved, or foremost literary events—yet another example of a loss they are simply too busy to keep up with such matters. to our community during this pandemic. We do not all live in a bubble within which politics is the Following the easing of restrictions in Powys, pubs, be-all and end-all of our lives. At the start of the crisis, restaurants and hotels were slowly coming back to life. Welsh Labour MPs were forced to write to the Treasury Supported by the unique eat out to help out scheme, to seek clarity on what support applied to businesses in demand picked up in August. Many restaurant and café Wales, as the guidance simply was not clear enough. owners have told me how much they valued this scheme, Businesspeople were often left confused as to whether which resulted in more than 77,000 meals being enjoyed or not the Chancellor’s announcements applied to the in the constituency. The argument that it contributed to whole of the UK or just England. The message was not increasing rates of the virus in September is simply not clearanditwasalsodifficulttoaccess,leavingmaybusinesspeople borne out in Brecon and Radnorshire, where coronavirus confused as to what financial aid they qualified for. rates have stayed mercifully low. 419WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 420WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Fay Jones] agricultural show in Europe. Each year, it welcomes a quarter of a million visitors to Llanelwedd, just outside The First Minister’s decision on Monday to put the Builth Wells. It creates £45 million for the UK economy entire country into lockdown once again is, to use the and, more than that, it is a rich seam in our cultural words of the hon. Member for Islwyn, a hammer blow fabric. For many, it is the highlight of the year—an for those businesses that were just starting to recover. annual holiday and a chance to catch up with friends The decision penalises everyone across Wales, irrespective right across the agricultural sector. Just before the Royal of the number of virus cases in a certain area. To make Welsh show was cancelled for 2020, the Department for the problem worse, businesses have no foresight as to Digital, Culture, Media and Sport provided the Welsh what comes next. The businesses in my constituency, Government with £59 million to support cultural activities which have relied on customers being able to travel up in Wales hit by the pandemic. I find it curious that only from the south Wales valleys, have no idea whether £53 million of that money has been made available so those people might be allowed back after the lockdown far. The Royal Welsh show is one of the biggest cultural is lifted. events in Wales. It is on a par with the Urdd eisteddfod, Like the hon. Gentleman, since Monday I have been which received £3.1 million in support from the Welsh flooded with emails from businesses and workers who Government. The Royal Welsh show has received next are now deeply uncertain about their future. I was saddened to nothing in comparison. I implore the Welsh Government to read on Facebook this morning that Aroma, a café in to consider the rural economy and find some extra Llandrindod Wells, has announced that it cannot survive funding for the show, which faces an uncertain future. lockdown 2 and will be closing its doors permanently. Support for businesses comes in many forms, not just lifeline funding. Businesses need to know what comes Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): The hon. Lady is next. We in Wales know that half-term, Halloween and making an excellent speech. Is there not more certainty bonfire night are all cancelled. Valuable chances to around the idea of a firebreak, or a circuit breaker, recover are gone. Where do we go from here? How do because it is time-limited, with a specific deadline of we fight the virus on an economic and a public health 9 November,whereas a very open-ended tier-based system front after 9 November? The Welsh Government need leaves people in a vacuum for an indefinite period of to come forward with a plan urgently. time? Surely the Welsh approach provides far more certainty than the UK Government’s approach. 2.53 pm (Newport East) (Lab): I congratulate Fay Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) but we do not know what will happen after 9 November, on securing this debate and on the excellent speech he as I will address in my speech. made. I apologise profusely for having to leave before It is clear to me that businesses do not want to be the winding-up speeches, as I must go and chair a kept on life support through Government grants and Committee. loans. They want to be open and busy, serving customers As my hon. Friend said, this debate on support for and playing an important role in our communities. people and businesses in Wales during covid-19 comes Throughout coronavirus, the tourism and hospitality in the context of the Welsh Government’s announcement sectors in Brecon and Radnorshire have reacted admirably that Wales will enter a national firebreak for a fortnight and have done everything they can to stay open, while from the end of this week. That is a sensible, proportionate ensuring that their customers are safe. response to the national rise in cases we have seen over I was pleased to visit Cantref activity centre in Brecon recent weeks—we only have to listen, for instance, to in the summer, which has worked incredibly hard to national health service staff from the Aneurin Bevan implement social-distancing measures and limit capacity, health board on social media to know that. I know it is as have Dan yr Ogof caves, a 60-year-old underground also something that many of my constituents, while caving attraction in Abercrave. They have all now been accepting the challenges it will pose—and it will be hard told by the Welsh Government that that work was for —will understand. nothing and that they are to lose their half-term revenue— The First Minister’s tone, which encouraged the people the only glimmer of hope in an otherwise dreadful year. of Wales to come together to look after each other and The lockdown is being imposed, and we will all have ease the burden on our NHS, was well judged. That is to comply, businesses included. I welcome that the not least because in Newport, which has been under Welsh Government have made £300 million available, local lockdown since 22 September, we saw our cases but I hope that that can be targeted at businesses in the drop yesterday to the joint lowest figure in the Aneurin tourism and hospitality sectors, which are now facing Bevan health board area, along with Monmouthshire, their third winter of 2020. I will play my part by urging part of which I represent. People in Newport have stuck the Chancellor and the Treasury to maintain the 5% to the rules, and there are some signs that that is now VAT rate, but I urge the Welsh Government to commit having an effect, even against the backdrop of a worrying to scrapping business rates for tourism and hospitality national picture. We thank them for their efforts and businesses for another year. Above all, in answer to the their sacrifices at this time, and we also thank those point made by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen working hard on the frontline during the second wave, Kinnock), the Welsh Government need to explain what who must be exhausted but who are keeping going. happens next. It is vital that we avoid an endless cycle of We are eternally grateful. rolling lockdowns, as trailed by the hon. Member for In his announcement on Monday, the First Minister, Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) on Sunday morning. Mark Drakeford, highlighted the challenges that businesses Before I conclude, I want to highlight the plight of across Wales are continuing to face. That is why it is the events sector, which is another important employer good to hear that businesses affected by the firebreak in my constituency. The Royal Welsh show is the largest will be supported with the new £300 million fund, which 421WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 422WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 opens next week, on top of the economic resilience fund “It’s like you’re saying to people, ‘You can only afford two-thirds that has safeguarded 100,000 jobs. It will include payments of your rent, you can only afford two-thirds of the food that you for businesses covered by small business rates relief; need to put on the table.’ There’s this sense from Downing Street small and medium-sized retail, leisure and hospitality and from Westminster that people will make do. Well, they weren’t coping before Covid.” business; and targeted support for struggling businesses, for which it cannot come soon enough. We need to She is absolutely right that this level of support simply repeat the First Minister’s ask: the Chancellor must give will not cut it. The UK Government should reconsider Welsh businesses early access to the new, expanded job the policy and listen to the Wales TUC, which has support scheme from Friday. The Welsh Government rightly stated that the wage replacement should be at are offering to pay the extra costs to retain staff. I hope least at the current furlough level of 80%. that can be resolved quickly. Given that two thirds of the national minimum wage It goes without saying that the past few months have is about £800 a month, there is a strong likelihood that been incredibly challenging for us all in Wales, and all many of the lowest-paid workers in Wales, where the the more so for individuals and businesses that are average wage is 15% lower than the UK average, will falling through the cracks of the support offered by the need to claim universal credit under the new job support UK Government. In Welsh questions last week, I spoke scheme. That again illustrates the pressing need to address up for constituents who are locked out of the Government’s the in-built flaws in the universal credit system, including new job support scheme or are deemed to be in unviable the five-week wait, which the Work and Pensions Select jobs. In his response, the Secretary of State invited me Committee highlighted yesterday, and the advance loan to raise individual examples of gaps in Government payment, which pushes people into debt. support that my constituents have encountered. Here Whole sectors of the Welsh and UK economy are are just a few for my constituency neighbour,the Minister. facing an uncertain future. In my constituency—my A worryingly large amount of correspondence has hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn has mentioned come in from constituents who were denied access to many of these—the sectors include the exhibition and the furlough scheme in the first place, including those events industry and its many supply chains, driving on maternity leave; those who are shielding; those made instructors, garages, dog kennels, gyms, the wedding redundant before 19 March, whose previous employer industry, and beauty and hair, as well as others. As chair does not agree, for whatever reason, to re-employ them of the all-party group on steel, may I point out the need and place them on temporary leave; and many zero-hours to help out our steel industry, which we will definitely contract staff, particularly agency workers. There are need if we are to build back greener? I urge Ministers to also those who started new jobs in March and who have work with their counterparts in the Welsh Government been unable to access support through the furlough to produce a road map for recovery for these businesses, scheme. For example, a constituent who started a new particularly those where supply chains frequently cross job in south Wales in March was told to stay at home borders within the UK. after a week in the office. He was later informed that the My final point is about lower-paid workers, particularly company could not afford to pay everyone, and he was women, and I draw Ministers’ attention to the excellent put on eight weeks’ unpaid leave. report by the Welsh equality charity, Chwarae Teg, There are also ongoing problems with Government “Covid-19: Women, Work and Wales”. What we are support schemes that affect those who have received going through might be the new normal, but for lower-paid support. They include the deeply unfair situation, which workers in unfurloughed sectors, such as care, retail and is only now becoming apparent, whereby lower paid the NHS, who are keeping the country going, there is workers who fall ill after returning to work from furlough nothing normal about the contribution they are making risk losing their entitlement to statutory sick pay, as to keep us safe in the second wave. The lowest paid—those their earnings fall under the limit of £120. I thank Mike on the living wage—deserve the Government to commit, Payne of the GMB union for highlighting that, and I at the very least, to giving them a raise next year. As I think the Government should sort it out. highlighted in Prime Minister’s questions last month, There are also gaping holes in the Government’s Ministers should confirm that the hourly level will still support for the self-employed, including those who rise to £9.21 in April. Working people in Wales and work on short pay-as-you-earn contracts. For example, across the UK should not be made to pay for this crisis. constituents in the creative sector on local film sets have not been covered by the self-employed income support 3 pm scheme or the job retention scheme. Those I have spoken Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ up for in previous debates who serve as directors for Co-op): It is pleasure to speak in this debate under limited companies and draw down their income in your chairmanship, Sir Edward, and I congratulate my dividends currently have no support under either scheme. hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on Those small business owners and directors are often not securing it. high earners, paying themselves a nominal salary and I, too, believe that the decision that the Welsh taking the rest as dividends. Government have taken is absolutely right and necessary The new job support scheme is also flawed. An to bring the virus under control and to provide certainty Institute for Public Policy Research report estimates to many of the businesses and organisations in my that only 10% of so-called viable jobs will be saved by constituency that are deeply worried about the prospect the package. The truth is that a grant of two thirds of of open-ended periods of restrictions that will cause their salary for workers is simply not sufficient for those them much more difficulty than a defined, albeit very on the lowest wages, and will make it harder for many of difficult, period of restrictions. Many of them are telling my constituents to pay bills and feed their families, me that the confusion, particularly from the Prime especially in the run-up to Christmas. Government adviser Minister, that has been reported in the UK media filters Dame Louise Casey said last week: through into Wales and depresses demand and the 423WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 424WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Stephen Doughty] I have raised this many times, but I want to raise again the situation facing many freelancers and those in willingness of people to go out and use local hospitality, the excluded groups who have fallen through the gaps in for example. It is clear that, with the virus rising in the different programmes and packages. Again, I want to way that it is, and with the potential impact on the NHS praise the Welsh Government for the approach they and the potential for even stricter measures to be put have taken, particularly on freelancers working in the into place, this is the right decision at the right time. arts and creative industries, in setting up a freelancer It is disappointing that the UK Prime Minister has fund. Individuals are not able to benefit in the same way not taken the same approach despite calls for him to do from the large sums that the Chancellor keeps trumpeting so. There has been a stark contrast in approach between as having been given to the arts and creative industries, that taken by Mark Drakeford, the First Minister, and but the freelancer fund is of course welcome. That Ministers in Wales, and what we have seen from the package supports many venues and arts and creative Prime Minister.I have similar stories of helpful engagements businesses in my constituency, but individuals—often with the Economy Minister, Ken Skates, when I have the lifeblood of our creative industries—are not eligible brought him concerns on behalf of individual businesses in England, although they are Wales, but the demand is and sectors. However, I will be generous to the Minister huge. If evidence is needed about the hurt and pain and the Secretary of State, who is not with us today, going on out there, one has only to look at how quickly because of the support that they have provided in a people have applied to the freelancer fund scheme in number of cases, particularly in the case of the steel Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan in recent days. industry in my community. Unfortunately, it requires There have already been two phases, and I am arguing the whole UK Government to be working in concert, for a third. Many people are struggling and are absolutely and such support has not been forthcoming in a number desperate for payments to help get them through the of other areas. That is disappointing. However, I next few months. The problem is not related to the acknowledge the support the Minister has personally lockdown that starts on Friday; it has been going on for provided on a number of issues, and it is right to months, and we have heard again and again from those acknowledge that. who have fallen through the gaps. Wehave the most comprehensive, nuanced and generous I also want to raise the issue of the bureaucracy that package of financial support, beyond the support from businesses face and the fact that the Chancellor has not the UK Government, and it has protected 100,000 jobs responded to the very reasonable request from the First in Wales. The package of support that was announced Minister to bring forward the job support scheme package. at the same time as the proposed measures is crucial in Businesses now have to apply for the furlough scheme at bringing together clarity on public health restrictions its tail end and then apply for the job support scheme. I with economic support and making sure that the support know there is a difference in approach and there are gets through to businesses. Ken Skates has announced a different views, and I know that politics is involved, but £300 million support package for businesses and, although I am talking about plain common sense for businesses. it contains multiple aspects, I should just mention that It would have made a lot more sense for the Chancellor it provides individual payments to those who, for example, to have brought the scheme forward. If businesses have benefit from small business rate relief and—of particular to continue to apply for the two separate schemes, I urge concern to my constituency—those small and medium-sized the Minister to ask his ministerial colleagues to bring enterprises in the leisure and hospitality sectors that forward the funding for the tail end of the furlough receive individualised payments. scheme as quickly as possible, because we all know that, I wish to raise a few specific issues. I have already for many businesses, cash is king. Many are really mentioned the wider implications of confusion. Despite struggling with their cash flow, and they need the money the welcome BBC Wales broadcasts and coverage of as soon as possible. statements from the First Minister,the Economy Minister I want to raise a related issue. I am being contacted and other Ministers, much of the media reporting on by many constituents and others facing delays at the what is happening in England and on the chaos and UK Government-run testing sites in Cardiff. I have confusion that we have seen in recent days filters across raised the issue with the Department of Health and into Wales. Many businesses and individuals regularly Social Care. The site is run as part of the Lighthouse lab come to me to talk about the tiers and the decisions that system. I have had multiple cases come in over the past have been taken for England. I have raised that point few weeks of people not getting tests and then having to since the start of the crisis, and I know that the Secretary self-isolate. They are unable to go to work, which is of State for Wales has made attempts to try to be causing financial strain and worry for them, their families clearer, but that is not often matched by the Prime and the businesses that they work for. I have raised the Minister and others getting up at UK Government matter with the DHSC Parliamentary Private Secretary press conferences to put information out there. That and others. I urge the Minister to look into that specific causes huge confusion not only for businesses and case because it relates to the UK Government-run site, individuals along the border but for others who pick up not the Welsh Government. news from England. There needs to be a real step We have seen a methodical, measured, science-led towards greater clarity on the decisions—whether people and consultative approach from the Welsh First Minister, agree with them or not—that have been made and why our Economy Minister and others in these very difficult they have been taken. Anything that the Minister and circumstances. I will continue to stand available to the Secretary of State for Wales can do to help provide support all of my businesses and all those who are clarity, even if there are differences and disagreements, struggling at the current time. I will continue to make would be helpful. The decisions are taken in Wales, and sure they get the right information and access to support. businesses should know that there is that certainty and I hope that we see a more measured, methodical, clear clarity about what is happening. and consultative approach from the UK Government 425WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 426WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 going forward. We are going to get through this only if ensuring a supported firebreak for a short period, rather everybody works together and if we take some of the than a slow decline towards Christmas, which we know politics out of it. We need to support our residents and is the time that a lot of businesses depend on to secure our businesses and not make the cheap jibes that we them throughout the year. The firebreak is absolutely have heard in recent days from the leader of the Welsh necessary to get back on top of the virus, to suppress Conservatives and their health spokesperson, Andrew the spread of infection and to stop the NHS being RT Davies. It is not helpful, it is deeply damaging, and it overwhelmed. is not in line with the facts on the ground. The Welsh Labour Government stepping in to save lives and provide a generous financial support package 3.8 pm is in stark contrast to what we see unfolding in England, Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): I congratulate which is the UK Government playing poker with people’s my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) lives and livelihoods. In Wales, the Welsh Government on securing this timely and important debate. If there is are providing £300 million in an enhanced resilience one thing that 2020 has taught us, it is the unshakable fund for this short two-week firebreak, small business truth that we are far stronger and more resilient when rates relief grants, funding for retail, hospitality and we come together, pool resources, look out for one leisure shutting down for two weeks, and a £100 million another, take collective responsibility, and shield and fund for long-term business development. protect the most vulnerable among us. The Government in Wales have swiftly provided the The health and wellbeing of people, the planet, family, clear and quality support that is needed now, as well as communities and businesses are at the heart of decision keeping an eye on the future. Despite repeated requests making in Wales. I know that the people of Cardiff from First Minister Mark Drakeford to work with the North, whom I am here to represent, fully understand UK Government, they have continued to ignore our the gravity of the situation that we face and that no First Minister. The UK Government’s display yesterday decisions are being taken lightly by the Welsh Labour towards Manchester shows the deep contempt they Government. I am so very proud of the clear, responsible have for people’s lives and livelihoods. Never has there and transparent leadership that the Welsh Labour been a more important time for us to come together Government have shown throughout the crisis. They and govern together. This is not governing—the UK have rolled out the most all-inclusive financial support Government seem incapable. They are seeking to divide package for businesses of all the four nations—£2 billion and conquer. It is politicking at best, but it is downright to keep businesses afloat. That has already saved 100,000 dangerous at a time of national emergency. We need businesses across Wales, and is appreciated by many I trust and transparency. have spoken to. I will make some specific requests of the Minister. I have had many conversations with constituents and I hope that the Chancellor responds swiftly to exchanges with people and businesses right across my Mark Drakeford’s request to give Welsh businesses constituency. There is no doubt that it is a very worrying early access to the new job support scheme, cutting time. We are facing tough times, but these businesses are down paperwork that overstretched and overworked integral to our communities. Cardiff North would not businesses must complete to access it. Will we see outlawed be the same without Mr Lazarou, the barber’s down the fire and rehire tactics under the guise of covid that few road from my office in Whitchurch; Dave Vater and his businesses—thankfully—but some practise? Usually, that Forest café in Tongwynlais; or Fran and Rupert with their affects those lowest paid and in the most precarious fantastic deli, Snails, in . Hairdressers, beauty jobs. Many have contacted me and are desperate to see salons, cafés, restaurants, the creative heritage and tourism an end to the practice. Likewise, the £20 uplift for sector—these are the people who put their heart and recipients of universal credit has been a lifeline for more soul into our high streets and communities and who than 5,000 people in Cardiff North, the difference create jobs in local areas. They must be protected too. between being able to cope and being cut adrift. Economic hardship shows no sign of easing, so will the UK The Welsh Government have also provided grants for Government extend that uplift to and throughout 2021? the self-employed and a freelance fund for those who have been shamefully excluded from all support from This is a deeply worrying time for everyone, and we the UK Government since March. They have lost work, have an uncertain future until there is a vaccine. There is yet still have the same bills to pay to keep the roof over no easy fix right now, but I thank the people of Cardiff their heads and their families fed. Yet again, the Welsh North and of Wales for making those tough sacrifices Labour Government have committed to providing support and for their continued co-operation. Elsewhere, we have for all where the Tories in Whitehall have been either witnessed how division leads to dithering and delay. unable or unwilling to do that. It is no surprise that in a Ultimately,that is bad for public health, and the uncertainty recent constituency-wide survey I conducted, the majority is bad for livelihoods and for businesses. Coming together of businesses who responded—78%—said that they far is our best chance of defeating this virus. preferred the Welsh Labour Government’s approach to the UK Government’s. 3.16 pm As we approach the short, sharp two-week firebreak Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): It is a pleasure to this Friday, we see the difficult decisions being taken by serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate the Welsh Labour Government, listening to the scientific my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) advice and taking action where needed. It is at times on securing this vital debate. like these that I am so proud to be Welsh—I know that Tostart, I pay tribute to all those across my constituency this view is shared by the majority of my constituents and, indeed, across Wales and the UK for doing their who write and tell me—and so proud to represent a bit to fight this pandemic. Community groups in Aberavon Welsh constituency. The Welsh Labour Government are sprang into action to help residents across our community, 427WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 428WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Stephen Kinnock] and it should be noted that every other sizeable economic power in the world has a significant steel industry. It is to help with food shopping, prescription pick-ups and also far greener to make steel in the UK than it is to so many other forms of support, and often just with import it, and lots of incredible work is taking place in acts of human kindness. Demand on our food banks this sector, including the SPECIFIC project at the has increased dramatically. I thank the Port Talbot, Innovation and Knowledge Centre on Swansea Bay Briton Ferry, Cwmafan and the Skewen Salvation Army campus, in partnership with Tata Steel. That project is food banks, as well as Age Cymru West Glamorgan for making steel-based materials that form the basis for ensuring that those most in need in our community do photovoltaic cells, potentially turning every building in not go without. our country into a power station. Our key workers have, of course, played an absolutely Steel is very much a 21st-century industry, and it is pivotal role. Our health and social care workers have the backbone of our economy and our manufacturing been right on the frontline of this fight, working so hard sector. We need our steel industry, yet because of the in the toughest of conditions. However, so have many of extraordinary nature of the situation we find ourselves our other unsung heroes, such as our transport workers, in, that industry can only get through this crisis with waste disposal men and women, food producers, Government support. Of course, part of the reason why steelworkers and many more who have kept our economy the steelworks needs this short-term support is that over going even during the national lockdown. the past 10 years, the Government have consistently Manufacturers have also played a critical role. I visited failed to back the UK steel industry with the long-term local Aberavon firms which have shown incredible support it requires. The UK Government have not innovation, flexibility and adaptability in producing offered a sector deal similar to those that are in place essential frontline equipment: BOC kept our Welsh with industries such as aerospace and construction, and NHS stocked with oxygen; Ministry of Furniture, also have not done enough to create the policy framework in my constituency,flipped on a sixpence to start producing around energy prices, procurement, and dealing with shields and screens for frontline workers; and a company the dumping of steel by countries such as China that is called RotaTherm, which turned its hand to PPE, also needed to form the foundation for a strong and healthy moved from its core business to a very different type of steel industry. The message to the UK Government is activity almost in the blink of an eye. It has been truly clear: we need our steel. There can be no post-pandemic inspirational to witness such a community effort. economic recovery without a strong and healthy steel I have also been profoundly impressed by the response industry, and the Government should be backing this of my local authority, Neath Port Talbot, and of course industry to the hilt. by the Welsh Government, as many of my hon. Friends It is not just the steel industry that the UK Government have pointed out. Our First Minister has led by example. have failed to back in the long term. The impact of He has followed the science and provided adequate 10 years of austerity on public services in Wales, including support for businesses and individuals, where it is the a reduction in the Welsh Government’s grant, has affected Welsh Government’s responsibility and capability to do the ability of local services to meet the challenge that so. The £300 million of financial support to firms and this pandemic poses. Neath Port Talbot Council has workers, to help them through the upcoming firebreak had to remove £90 million from its budget since 2010, lockdown, is a case in point. That is leadership, and it is and is expected to find another £50 million reduction by truly welcome and much needed. 2025. Now coronavirus has hit, meaning that like other Contrast that—as a number of my hon. Friends have councils across the UK, both the extra spend and the already observed—with the events in Greater Manchester, loss of revenue for Neath Port Talbot Council will run into where the UK Conservative Government are certainly the millions. This really is going to be a test for public failing to deliver on their levelling-up rhetoric. One specific services whose resilience has been undermined over the issue that my constituents regularly raise is the need for past decade. more support from the Chancellor for the self-employed. Local councillors need the Chancellor to heed the Creative industry workers have told me that their work words of the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities has dropped off a cliff, and because of the nature of and Local Government, who promised in May that the their employment—short-term pay-as-you-earn contracts, Government freelance work and so on—many of them fall outside “stands with local councils at this difficult time” the income support schemes. and that they would do “whatever is necessary”. So far, We also need far more support for our steelworkers. there is scant evidence of the UK Government making The Port Talbot steelworks is the biggest employer in good on that pledge, but they need to, because “whatever my constituency by far, but Tata Steel has fallen through is necessary” needs to mean what it says. the cracks in the UK Government’s schemes and has yet to receive any emergency funding or loans. It took the Take also the long-term issue of strategic independence. French and German Governments just weeks to provide I recently visited one local company, which has turned their major steel producers with the finance to cover their its hand to manufacturing PPE for the Welsh NHS in a short-term cash flow issues—issues that are, of course, truly flexible and inspirational way, but what came due to the impact of the pandemic—yet there still has home to me during that visit was that at that point, not been a penny for the British steel industry from the there were no Welsh companies making PPE for the UK Government. They continue to sit on their hands. Welsh NHS. That is because the whole supply chain had Steelworkers are key workers.The steel industry continues been moved offshore to countries such as China. to operate and serve our country through the current Every single one of the firm’s employees who I spoke crisis, and will be critical to rebuilding our economy to expressed their profound concerns about the way in after it. It is the backbone of modern manufacturing, which our sovereign capability had been eroded, to the 429WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 430WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 point where we are left dangerously exposed and over-reliant 9 November. As the First Minister of Wales, on other countries. Frequently, those countries are not Mark Drakeford, said, that was not an easy decision, allies of ours or our national interest and security. The but it was taken on the advice of the Welsh Government’s UK Government must understand that when we talk scientific advisers and it is absolutely necessary to regain about supporting UK businesses through covid-19, we control of the virus, to protect our NHS and to save also need to have an eye to the future, and the reliance lives. and resilience that UK manufacturers would bring to No one in the Chamber is ignorant to the challenges the economy. We cannot go on in a situation where so that this will cause to businesses and families in Wales, much of our critical infrastructure is exposed to forces who have already sacrificed so much as we seek to that we cannot control. control the virus. As we have heard, the Welsh Labour Finally, Sir Edward, I want to touch on skilling and Government are putting in place an enhanced package reskilling. After the pandemic we are going to need of support, doubling the third phase of their economic significant investment in vocational training for my resilience fund, making more than £300 million available constituents and for people across the country, to help to Welsh businesses. That builds on what the fund has them get back into the job market, because, I am afraid, already achieved, as we have heard from my hon. Friend there will be a huge shift of people losing their jobs. We the Member for Islwyn and others, supporting nearly are going to need to retrain those people and bring 13,000 companies and helping to secure 100,000 jobs in them back into the labour market. Wales. Skilling and reskilling programmes have frequently Many Members have cited the support Welsh people been funded through European structural funds in Wales and businesses have received from the UK Government, and other economically challenged parts of the United primarily through the furlough scheme, and on these Kingdom. That money will disappear in January, when Benches we have welcomed that. We are a party that the transition period ends, leaving a huge black hole. believes in the Union, and it is only right that we pull The UK Government have promised that a UK shared together and pool our resources, so that we can support prosperity fund will replace EU development funding, one another in times of national crisis. but we still know next to nothing about the SPF. How It is also right to recognise the huge contribution of much money will be in the envelope? What development all partners in supporting local communities. Local programmes will it cover? What will be the focus of authorities in Wales have been at the forefront of ensuring those programmes? Who will be in charge of administering that our crucial public services are maintained; and, of the scheme? There is a tremendous risk that the UK course, local authorities and third sector organisations, Government will undertake both a money grab and a working with public health bodies and others, have power grab from the devolved nations with regard to made a huge contribution to sustaining families and how that development funding is spent. We have even communities. That has included co-ordinating food box recently heard suggestions that the UK Government schemes, neighbour befriending schemes and other schemes plan to funnel money directly into marginal or that support residents’ wellbeing and combat loneliness Conservative-held seats in what can only be described and isolation. I pay tribute also to the work of those in as the worst sort of pork barrel politics. the housing sector—in local authorities and housing It is frankly unacceptable that we are just two months associations—who have done much to support their away from the day on which the shared prosperity fund tenants. An example of that was the WithYoucampaign is supposed to be launched, yet we have no idea about launched by Community Housing Cymru. its overall size, focus or governance. That is yet another I do not think I shall have time today to mention all example of the UK Conservative Government treating the contributions to the debate in as much detail as I the regions and local areas of our United Kingdom should like, but I want to acknowledge some of the with contempt. As chair of the all-party parliamentary comments that were made by other Members. My hon. group on post-Brexit funding for regions, nations and Friend the Member for Islwyn highlighted the genuine local areas, I will be working closely with colleagues to concerns of businesses in Islwyn and across the country. hold the Government to account and to ensure that He also rightly highlighted support from the Welsh they deliver on their promises. Government, as well as the lack of regular contact from With those words I close, and simply add that we have the UK Government to the Welsh Government and the seen some inspiring examples in all our local communities. lack of co-operation from the UK Government at various In this time of crisis, we all need to pull together in the times during the pandemic. interests of those communities, our constituents and The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire our entire country.That will require leadership, investment (Fay Jones) talked about the understandable concerns and a new way of working across our United Kingdom. raised by businesses and the tourism sector. I am sure I look forward to the Minister’s comments on all those that she will join me in welcoming the additional funding issues. set out in this week’s announcement dealing with the firebreak lockdown, and the additional £20 million that 3.28 pm was ring-fenced by the Welsh Government as part of (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): It that, specifically for tourism and hospitality. is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, My hon. Friend the Member for Newport East Sir Edward. (Jessica Morden) talked about her gratitude to constituents I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn of hers who have done the right thing. I am sure that we (Chris Evans) on securing today’s important and timely would all echo that, as people in communities across the debate, which comes just a few days away from the country have gone through a hugely difficult few months new restrictions coming into force in Wales, in the form and unfortunately the end is not yet in sight. She also of the firebreak lockdown between 23 October and raised the need for early access to the job support 431WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 432WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Gerald Jones] tackle this dreadful virus and support Welsh businesses and families who are affected at this hugely difficult scheme—something that was echoed by my hon. Friends the time. Members for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) and for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin)—and the need 3.35 pm to combat bureaucracy as businesses deal with two schemes in the short two-week lockdown. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies): I am not quite sure how many My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and minutes I have. Penarth talked about taking the right decisions at the right time, which would contrast starkly with examples Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): The debate has to of what we have seen from the UK Government. He finish at 4 pm, so you have plenty of time. also mentioned the fact that the Welsh Government have aligned public health with the need for economic David T. C. Davies: Right. I thank the hon. Member support—a crucial link. He talked about the lack of for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) for his support for those who have been excluded, and contrasted comments. He, like many others, including the hon. the launch of the freelancers’ fund in Wales with what Members for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) and for has happened across the UK, pointing out the huge Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock)—I think everyone did need for that fund across the country. My hon. Friend this, actually—mentioned the role played by public the Member for Cardiff North talked about the need to sector workers, including local authority workers, teachers pool resources and the measured approach of the Welsh and, of course, the police. I want to mention prison Government. She also raised the freelancers issue, and officers, because they always seem to get left out. I am requests for early access to the job support scheme. not saying that they did any more or less than anyone Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon else, but they have certainly taken risks and, sadly, in my (Stephen Kinnock) talked about the community action constituency one member of the Prison Service died as that sprang into place throughout the pandemic, of a result of covid. I thank all hon. Members for an which I am sure we have all seen examples across Wales. interesting and perceptive debate, and I will try to Our communities have demonstrated a huge amount of respond to as many of the points as I can. community spirit, and I pay tribute, as I am sure we all I want to strike a note of unity by saying that covid-19 do, to the key workers across Wales who have kept our is the biggest challenge that we have faced for generations. economy going. My hon. Friend raised the need for a We are tackling this pandemic head-on, and we seek to steel support fund and contrasted the UK Government’s reduce the risk of transmission and the number of approach with that of other Governments around the infections and deaths, while minimising the longer-term world, who sprang into action a lot more quickly to damage to the economy.I believe that the UK Government support their key industries. Of course, he also raised have shown clear leadership across the country in fighting the important issue of the shared prosperity fund, the scourge of coronavirus.Every time the UK Government highlighting the fact that in 2018 we were due to have a have implemented measures designed to curb the spread consultation on it, and two years later, with just two of covid-19, we have put in place provisions to support months to go, clarity about the fund is missing. That is those who are affected, in Wales and right across the a shocking indictment of the UK Government. United Kingdom. The Welsh Government’sinclusive approach has ensured We started with an additional package of funding in that local government, the third sector and other partners the spring Budget to support the NHS and other public have pulled together in one direction, with a shared services. We followed that up with support for business interest, to support people across Wales. That is, through lockdown and beyond, including Government- unfortunately, in stark contrast to the situation we find backed loans, starting with the coronavirus business at Westminster. interruption loan scheme. To date, almost £400 million of UK Government-backed loans have been extended It is disappointing to hear some representatives of to firms in Wales under that scheme. The bounce back the Conservative party continually calling into question loan scheme, introduced for small and medium-sized the justification for the firebreak lockdown, as they enterprises, has supported over £1 billion-worth of loans have done in recent days. I think that approach is both in Wales. The furlough scheme kept workers in their ignorant and irresponsible. Unlike the UK Government, jobs during lockdown, with the Government paying up we have followed the science in Wales. I suggest that to 80% of their usual wage. At its peak, the scheme Conservative Members actually read the advice produced supported more than 400,000 workers in Wales—around by the Welsh Government’s technical advisory cell. I a quarter of the workforce. have a copy if Members want to pass it on to their colleagues. The UK Government have pursued a generous approach, designed to work together with all devolved We are in the middle of a national and global crisis, Administrations, and we have given the Welsh Government and the responsible thing for us all to do is to reinforce an up-front guarantee of an additional £4.4 billion the clear public health messages that are designed to of funding, over and above the normal block grant, regain control of the virus and to save lives. It has not to help them to deal with the scale and uncertainty been a happy 24 hours for the Government in their of the disruption caused by coronavirus. Various dealings with the nations and regions across the UK. I Members, including the hon. Members for Merthyr hope that, when the Minister gets to his feet, he will Tydfil and Rhymney, for Cardiff South and Penarth address some of the genuine concerns and questions (Stephen Doughty) and for Cardiff North—in fact, that Members have raised on behalf of our constituents. probably all the Opposition Members who spoke—praised I hope that we will achieve some unity as we work to the Labour Government. The hon. Member for Cardiff 433WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 434WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 North seemed to use the words “Welsh Labour” in I will probably completely mess up my speech, now virtually every sentence, saying, “The Welsh Labour but I want to talk about co-operation. I have never seen Government have delivered this; they’ve delivered that; such co-operation between the UK and the Welsh and they’ve saved X number of jobs.” I am not denying Governments. From the very start, Welsh Government for one moment that they have done those things, but Ministers have been invited along to every Cobra meeting they did them with the £4.4 billion and all the other and to the ministerial implementation group meetings, money that has been provided to them to deal with this which are at the level below that, where a lot of decisions crisis. are also taken. Wehave had Welsh Government Ministers, It was right that the Welsh Government be given SNP Ministers and Northern Irish Ministers there, all extra funding in order to deal with this crisis. It is listening to the evidence and all taking part in the perfectly reasonable to praise one’s own political party decision-making process. It is right that that was the or Government—we all do that from time to time—but case, because we wanted to approach the matter from a I was disappointed to hear the hon. Lady say that we UK perspective. must all try to work together and take politics out of At the same time, it occurred to the Secretary of State this, and then not even to acknowledge that the Welsh for Wales that it might be useful if he or I had some Labour Government were able to deliver that help, knowledge of what the Welsh Government proposed—not which she spoke about in such grand terms, only because to take part in any decision-making process, but to have extra money was rightly given by the UK Government. an idea of what was taking place. We wrote to the First Minister, pointing out that his Ministers rightly come to Anna McMorrin: Does the Minister not agree that many UK-level ministerial meetings and asking if it the Government in Westminster have acted across the would be possible for us to attend Welsh Government UK in a way that could be described as politicking, at ministerial meetings—not to take any part in the decisions, best, and downright dangerous, at worst? He fails to and not necessarily even to say anything, but simply to realise that by not engaging with Wales, Scotland and listen and understand the process in Wales—but we the regions, he and his Government are leaving people received little response. desperate and dying. In the end, we were told that we could perhaps sit in on some of the meetings, but only for the moments David T. C. Davies: It is disappointing again that the where non-devolved matters were being discussed. I hon. Lady uses the word “politicking” in one sentence think we have had one invitation in the last six months. and “dangerous” in the next, and then goes on to That is a disappointing lack of co-operation. It is suggest that one Government’s approach is leaving people extraordinary to me that anyone has the audacity, frankly, dying. If she wants to talk about poker games, she to suggest that the UK Government are not working might want to look at what happened in Manchester, hand in hand with the Welsh Government, when the where a Labour local authority leader did everything UK Government have fallen over themselves to invite possible to avoid locking down unless he could get some Welsh Ministers to these meetings. more money out of the Government. That is playing poker. That is politicking with people’s lives. The UK Anna McMorrin indicated dissent. Government’s approach has been to try and avoid the narrow politicking. That is why you will not catch me David T. C. Davies: The hon. Lady shakes her head, saying that a policy that is being pursued by the Labour but it is a matter of record that Welsh Government Government in Wales, even though it may be different Ministers attend Cobra and ministerial implementation from the UK Government’s policies, is causing people group meetings. to die or causing danger. That is not a comment that I ever want to make. Fay Jones: The Minister is being generous with his time. Is it not the case that people in Wales are tired of Anna McMorrin: The Minister is picking on my this back and forth, and of people playing politics with speech, so I seem to have got under his skin. Can he who has been invited to what meeting? The Opposition’s point out the scientific evidence that the UK Government accusation that we are not working closely is completely are following? It certainly is not the scientific evidence false. In actual fact, they do not like it when we disagree. that we have seen from our scientific advisers across the They cannot cope with that, so they say that we are not country and, specifically, in Wales. working together. That is not working together; it is just disagreement. David T. C. Davies: It is not that the hon. Lady has got under my skin, but if she suggests that the UK David T.C. Davies: My hon. Friend makes an important Government are deliberately leaving people to die, that point. [Interruption.] Allow me to give way to the hon. is something that I have to tackle. As far as the science Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. goes, at the first Cobra meeting I attended—I have attended a few of them when the Secretary of State has Stephen Doughty: I want to take the Minister back to not been available—I saw the Prime Minister ask the a specific point. There has been co-operation on a chief scientific adviser, “How can we save the maximum number of issues—I mentioned the steel industry, and number of lives?”The UK Government’s whole approach that was a good example of close working between the has been about asking the scientists not, “What will be Minister, his fellow Ministers and Welsh Government good for the economy?” but, “What will save lives?” The Ministers with one of my key local businesses and with hon. Lady will be pleased to know that a member of me—but I do not think it has been consistent throughout. the Welsh Government—I cannot remember if it was It was not helpful that the Prime Minister did not even the Health Minister or the First Minister—was present speak to the First Minister for many months, even if at that meeting. there was co-operation at other levels. 435WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 436WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 [Stephen Doughty] suppress the number of people going into hospital, it will also have the impact that we all know about on I want to ask the Minister this question specifically: people’s jobs and livelihoods. why can the Chancellor not start the job support scheme In the long term, the inability to diagnose patients that little bit earlier to coincide with the Welsh Government’s with things such as cancer will ultimately have an impact decision on a local lockdown? That would make things on lives. I was talking recently to a senior, established a lot easier for businesses. dentist in south Wales, who told me about the number of referrals each year for oral cancer, which are first David T. C. Davies rose— discovered by dentists. Because so many dentists are Fay Jones: On a point of order, Sir Edward. The hon. now not operating, or are not operating the same service, Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin), from a fewer people are going to see the dentist. Therefore, sedentary position, has just called me a liar. I ask that fewer people are being referred for oral cancer consultations, that comment be retracted. It is beneath her. and at some point in the future a number of people will lose their lives because of an undiagnosed form of Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Do you wish to cancer. That is absolutely inevitable; it is just not going comment, Mr Doughty? to generate a headline. A responsible Government must take account not Stephen Doughty: The point of order was not directed only of what is going on here and now in the NHS with at me. covid, but of what will happen in the longer term when people lose their jobs, or when they are not diagnosed Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Does anybody want as early as they should be for diseases such as cancer. It to comment? is a very difficult tightrope to walk. I do not envy anyone in the Department of Health or in No. 10, and I Anna McMorrin: I did not call her a liar. I just said— do not envy Mr Gething or Mr Drakeford; they both have a very difficult job to do and I do not doubt that Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): I think we have had they are doing their utmost. I certainly am not going to enough debate. Let us all be nice and polite to each play politics or suggest that, because they are taking a other. Everybody here is honourable. Everybody has slightly different course of action from that of the UK their own position to make. Nobody is a liar, and Government, they are doing something dangerous. nobody has said that anybody is a liar. However, we have a right to question what all of the David T. C. Davies: On the point made that was made Governments are doing. by the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, a telephone conversation took place last week between Gerald Jones: As a Union of four nations, it is sensible the First Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer; to have that four-nation approach where possible, but I am afraid that I cannot find the relevant part of my clearly the virus is taking different directions in different speech, but I know that that phone call happened. parts of the country and there is a need to have that During that discussion, the First Minister indicated local—devolved or regional—response to things. Whether that he would bring forward this lockdown and indicated it is the Mayor of Greater Manchester or the First the date that it would start, and he asked for the Minister of Wales, they are clearly in touch at a grassroots financial support that the hon. Gentleman refers to. He level with what is going on in their area. Does the was told very clearly that the Chancellor’s new scheme Minister agree that in those circumstances,it is disappointing would apply on a certain date, and the Chancellor to hear the example that we have heard about today of implored the First Minister not to bring in the lockdown the lack of contact between the Prime Minister and the on the dates proposed. The point is that the Chancellor First Minister, which at one stage meant there was and the First Minister had that discussion and knew something like three months or so without any contact each other’s position. The First Minister still decided to between them whatsoever? go forward with that lockdown, and therefore it is the First Minister’s responsibility to come forward with the David T. C. Davies: I do not accept that last point, proposals to support affected businesses in Wales. because the First Minister would have been able to I suppose there is one thing that we all agree on: a speak to the Prime Minister anyway, had he wanted to, lockdown has an enormous impact on business. There and Welsh Government Ministers were dealing with is absolutely no doubt about that. It will cause people to UK Government Ministers on an almost daily basis. I lose their jobs and businesses to close—it will leave would go as far as to say that, because at a lower level I people worse off. We all agree on that, which is why we was involved in the ministerial implementation groups, are arguing, to some extent, over how much money we and I know that during lockdown they were taking can find to support those businesses. If we all accept place multiple times every week—I will not quite say that, we need to be careful before we introduce lockdowns. every single day, but it felt like it. Every day, Ministers The hon. Member for Cardiff North mentioned the from each of the devolved regions were taking part in science. The Government are following the science of the decision-making process. I therefore cannot accept people such as the deputy chief medical officer, Jonathan at all the argument that there was a lack of contact. Van-Tam, who said—today, I think, or certainly earlier I am told that there were attempts by No. 10 to talk this week—that local lockdowns are working and are to the First Minister and that he cancelled one meeting, likely to be effective. The World Health Organisation but I do not know the full ins and outs of that. However, said that lockdowns can be effective but should be used I am absolutely certain that the First Minister would as a last resort. The Government have to take account always have had access to the Prime Minister had he of the fact that although a lockdown can temporarily needed it, and he certainly has always had access to the 437WH Support for People and Businesses 21 OCTOBER 2020 Support for People and Businesses 438WH in Wales: Covid-19 in Wales: Covid-19 Secretary of State for Wales. I know that they are for a number of years. As I alluded to when I spoke to talking on an almost weekly basis. It is inconceivable the Minister about the Henry VII trail, we are trying to that the Secretary of State for Wales would not take a develop a growing tourism industry in constituencies call from the First Minister; in fact, I am sure that has such as mine. They have an industrial past, but we are never happened. hoping that we can bring about tourism, and Hallets, The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney which I mentioned, is part of that. Who would have made the interesting point that it makes sense to have a thought that cider would be made in the valleys? regional approach, because the virus is breaking out in I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for different ways across the United Kingdom; that is a fair Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) for being so feisty comment. Of course, the same can be said within Wales. and causing such an interesting exchange with the Minister. There are areas of Wales where the outbreak of the I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff virus is far lower than in other parts of the United South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), who made a Kingdom. Therefore, he may feel that he needs to very pertinent point. In the early days of this pandemic, justify to a tea shop owner in Tenby why there is now a when the Prime Minister was making announcements, full lockdown taking place in half-term, at a time when there was a serious concern about whether they applied that shopkeeper or that tea shop owner would have to Wales. I am glad that has been corrected, because it is been hopeful of recouping some of the money that has a really important issue that we had early on. I also pay been lost over the last six months. tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon I am conscious that the hon. Member for Islwyn (Stephen Kinnock), who raised concerns about the (Chris Evans) must respond to the debate. By the way, shared prosperity fund and talked about how we go he made an excellent speech. I am grateful for the comments forward with it. I also pay tribute to my constituency he made and I am looking forward to the Henry VII neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr trail that will take place. Of course, by the time Henry VII Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones), for the way he made that famous march across Wales towards Bosworth, summed up. we had already seen the hard border disappear; from I should also mention the Minister. Very often we are the time of Owain Glyndwˆr onwards, we have not had a on our feet battling with each other, as he did with my hard border in Wales. Yet, as a result of decisions that hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North, but we are being made at the moment, I fear that it will come forget how important the work that he does behind the back again, which is not something that I, as a Unionist, scenes is. He has always been very happy to meet wish to see. colleagues from across the House if they have an issue, For as long as this virus continues, the UK Government whether over the phone or face to face. I pay tribute to will want to support all parts of the United Kingdom, him for that work that he does behind the scenes. We and if other Governments or local authorities in other often do not talk about it, and members of the public parts of the United Kingdom want to take credit for the do not see it, so I thank him for that. enormous help that has been offered, that is absolutely I want to end by saying this. The pandemic is no fine by me. I can assure hon. Ladies and Gentlemen respecter of political colours or borders. Whatever the here today that we do not want to play politics with this Government can do or think they can do, it is up to situation; we simply want to eradicate this virus and people on the ground to make sure those measures are then get back on with the job of rebuilding Britain. in place as we fight this terrible disease. The most fantastic thing that all Members have seen since covid-19 3.54 pm is the way the country has come together. People in Chris Evans: May I begin by apologising to you, communities across the country,whether in Wales,Scotland, Sir Edward? I called you Mr Leigh when I should have Northern Ireland or England, have come together to referred to you as Sir Edward, and I hope you do not reach out to their neighbours and friends to make sure think I was being discourteous to you as Chair. they are okay and can get through the loneliness and the mental health issues that come with it. They have This debate was going very well until the Minister banded together, particularly in the summer when we summed up, and then we had an argument for 15 minutes. saw a drop-off in the virus infection rates, to ensure that I pay tribute to everybody who took part. My hon. business thrives. I am hopeful that once the pandemic is Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) over,business and the economy will once again bounce back. talked about how Newport is recovering during its period of lockdown. I thank the hon. Member for Question put and agreed to. Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones), who made a very Resolved, pertinent point about how important tourism is to her That this House has considered support for people and businesses constituency. It has been embedded in her constituency in Wales affected by the covid-19 outbreak. 439WH 21 OCTOBER 2020 Schools in Kent: Covid-19 440WH

Schools in Kent: Covid-19 Take the Isle of Sheppey, where the majority of 11 to 16-year-olds are educated at the island’s only secondary school. As the Minister will know, it is split between two [MARK PRITCHARD in the Chair] sites that are 2 miles apart. Many of the more aspirational 4 pm children choose to travel to the mainland, where there are two grammar schools and three high schools. For Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): some of the youngsters on Sheppey, being disadvantaged I beg to move, begins before the school run. If their parents cannot That this House has considered the effect of the covid-19 afford transport to the mainland or are disinclined to outbreak on schools in disadvantaged areas of Kent. take up that choice, the only option is the Oasis Academy I might add that the schools we are discussing include Isle of Sheppey. a number in my constituency of Sittingbourne and Sheppey. There is nothing wrong with the Isle of Sheppey The list of challenges that we have faced this year, academy—in fact, it has come on leaps and bounds following the outbreak of coronavirus in the spring, is since it was first taken over by Oasis—and I certainly do growing longer all the time. Almost every aspect of our not want my words to detract in any way from the very lives has been affected by covid-19 and the various good work being done to help the young people in its restrictions imposed to combat it. One of the areas that care. For instance, pre-covid, a team of dedicated staff has seen the biggest change is our education system, established a taskforce that works with local groups of from the move to online learning during the lockdown people and organisations to improve the area around earlier this year, to the implementation of classroom the students and highlight the positives that the island and year group bubbles when pupils were eventually let has to offer. back into schools. I want to start my comments by There are many success stories coming out of the praising school staff and pupils for their tenacity, patience Oasis Academy, which, as a result of forward-thinking and resilience throughout these challenging times, leadership, is allowing many of its pupils to be proud of particularly those in my constituency, of whom I am who they are and where they come from. However, incredibly proud. there are still concerns over those who struggle to break I would like to take this opportunity to mention a out of the historic cycle of unemployment, which has number of concerns that have been raised with me. led to social deprivation and is one of the causes of the Before doing so, however, I want to stress that I broadly lack of aspiration among some young people and their support the Government’sstrategy for tackling the covid-19 parents. Every child should have the same access to a crisis. The financial support that has been given to so good education and providing that is difficult enough, many businesses and schools has been quite extraordinary, even when we have a society that is functioning properly. and I hope that Ministers will continue to provide My inbox proves to me that if we are to achieve our whatever help is needed as we fight the second wave of ambition to build back better, we will have to work this wretched disease. harder at getting learning for all our young people. Despite the Government’s excellent record, however, Of course, covid-19 has not helped. Speaking with we would be kidding ourselves if we believed that headteachers in my area, one thing is clear: during the everything had gone completely smoothly or that things lockdown, there was a lack of IT equipment and internet could not have sometimes been done better. Mistakes access, which prevented the most disadvantaged pupils have been made—not always by politicians—and we from taking part in online lessons. Just imagine that, should learn from them as we go forward. Take schools Mr Pritchard—locked out of education because you in Kent as an example. They are already facing huge are not one of those lucky enough to have access to challenges—particularly those in areas of high social superfast broadband. deprivation, including in my constituency—and those challenges are being exacerbated by the difficulty that I appreciate the unprecedented challenges faced by schools face when either a pupil or a member of staff is the Government to ensure children continued to be forced to self-isolate because of possible covid symptoms. educated during the lockdown. I am sure that Ministers My information is that there have been far too many did what they could in very difficult circumstances. occasions when it has taken too long for pupils and staff However, we must learn from those circumstances and to get the all clear when their tests prove negative. Those ensure our schools are not left in the same situation delays have caused enormous disruption to the running again. Such disadvantages in education damage the of the schools concerned. perceptions that affected pupils have about their peers. Quite rightly, the Government are determined to It sows division and widens the difference in achievement keep schools open, even when areas move into higher levels, and ultimately leads to struggles later in life. covid alert levels. However, it is important that they can That is why I was horrified to hear the account from operate with as little disruption as possible. I believe Alan Brookes, a widely respected headteacher in my that, like the NHS and care homes, schools should be constituency and chairman of the Kent Association of given priority when it comes to testing. Headteachers. Alan told me that the attainment gap One of the main reasons I applied for this debate is between children from different socio-economic groups that the current covid-19 crisis has exposed the divide has grown since the lockdown, not least because children between pupils from areas of social deprivation and from the more deprived groups were least likely to those in more affluent communities. As I pointed out attend lessons during lockdown, even when they were earlier, there are a number of disadvantaged areas in my encouraged to do so. As he pointed out, the challenges constituency,so I know better than most the consequences he and his staff faced daily were compounded by lengthy of social deprivation and how they can have a lasting delays in the provision of laptops funded by the Department impact on the lives and ambitions of some people. for Education. 441WH Schools in Kent: Covid-1921 OCTOBER 2020 Schools in Kent: Covid-19 442WH

Schools did the best they could in the circumstances. that otherwise good schools will not be classed as The Isle of Sheppey academy loaned out laptops to failing as a result of circumstances related purely to the those of its pupils who did not have access to one at pandemic, which were outside their control. home while in lockdown, or where families had only I now turn to what is becoming one of the biggest one device that would have had to be shared. We must issues of our time: mental health. Our young people are also remember that, for a lot of children, the situation resilient and good at bouncing back, and at digging at home is not conducive to learning. We must do all we deep and getting on with the task in hand, but we must can to prevent a second national lockdown, which to be ensure that we have in place measures to offer support effective would no doubt have to include schools. for those who struggle. Alan Brookes tells me that Kent I must tell the Minister that there are also concerns in schools are already seeing signs that children from the my area that the catch-up funding is inadequate, because poorest backgrounds are turning up at school with it is spread far too thinly. I am sure he will correct me if increased mental health issues. His school, Fulston I am wrong, but Kent schools will receive £4,237,650 Manor in Sittingbourne, has been able to refer people this autumn. That represents £80 for each pupil up to to external services, but that is only because staff in the and including year 11. Although I recognise that the school are being proactive. I am worried that not enough money is designed to help pupils who have missed long is being done to ensure that pupils elsewhere do not fall periods of in-school education, it is going to all pupils, through the cracks. whatever their personal circumstances. I would like to Other things are already creeping up on us, and it is see more of the money targeted at schools in deprived our duty to look at those in our rear-view mirror to areas that have the pupils who need financial help most. ensure that we keep ahead of them. One such thing is The Government are under pressure to extend their higher unemployment. The first roles to go are likely to free school meals scheme. Personally, I believe there is be those in the more deprived areas of Kent. If left an argument to agree to that in the short term, although unchecked, that will impact most on those young people I will not be supporting the Labour motion today leaving school from the poorest backgrounds. Those because it is too open-ended. Who knows what will people who will risk failing are the hard-working youngsters happen after Christmas? But that is by the by. who want to leave school to start making a contribution If we are to have a free meals scheme with the vouchers, to our society in the most valuable way. If we are not we should once again ensure that it is for the hardest-hit careful, they will simply join the long-term unemployed. families. However, we must improve the delivery of the We must avoid that at all costs. vouchers used in the scheme.There were continual problems In winding up, I take the opportunity to praise the with the scheme in my local schools, with some people work of Swale Borough Council and Kent County finding it difficult to get hold of vouchers. That led to Council, which have gone above and beyond the call of schools providing meals for desperate families out of duty in a bid to ensure that things run as smoothly as their own budgets. possible for pupils and students. Finally, again, I thank Turning to exams, we saw how the pandemic impacted my local school staff, pupils and parents for the way in the GCSE and A-level results season this year. As which they have conducted themselves in the face of a policy makers, we must take what happened this summer difficult and fast-changing situation. as a black mark against our name. We must learn from 4.15 pm it and use it as an opportunity to improve the system. I Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. know that my right hon. Friend the Minister is working hard with Ofqual to ensure that future examinations are 4.25 pm fair, but what assurances will he give students that their On resuming— grades next year will be as valuable as their predecessors’ this year? What is being done to ensure parity in the Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): The debate may now education system, especially now,when we have a situation continue until 4.40 pm. in which lockdowns are becoming ever more likely? How will we ensure that our young people are all The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): I felt assessed on the same criteria when their experiences are a little like a contestant in “Just a Minute”, with two likely to be worlds apart? seconds left before the bell went. It is a pleasure to serve To go slightly further, there are already concerns in under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I congratulate Kent about the plans announced last week for the next my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and block of GCSEs and A-levels. The Government have Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) on securing the debate said that they will give pupils more time to prepare for and for an excellent opening speech. exams next year, but heads in my area believe that the Covid-19 has affected everyone but, as my hon. Friend announced changes will simply widen the attainment says, children and young people in our most disadvantaged gap, because a three-week delay in taking the exams communities risk being acutely affected. It has been this does little, if anything, to compensate for the learning Government’s aim throughout the crisis to do whatever that has already been lost. it takes to mitigate the impact on communities such as That leads me to another concern. No doubt, as we those in his constituency, including by focusing support emerge from the pandemic, Ofsted will resume school on schools in those areas. I begin by outlining that inspections. I urge my right hon. Friend to insist that support, specifically addressing the points my hon. inspectors take into account a school’s individual Friend made just now. circumstances before assessing it, especially those schools In March this year, the Government took the difficult in deprived areas where the delivery of education has decision to ask schools to close to most children, remaining been more problematic and where standards and exam open for vulnerable children, those with education, results will inevitably be affected. I would like an assurance health and care plans, and the children of critical workers. 443WH Schools in Kent: Covid-1921 OCTOBER 2020 Schools in Kent: Covid-19 444WH

[Nick Gibb] 99.7% of state-funded schools were open, with approximately 89% of all children enrolled in all state- Throughout that difficult time, I was inspired by the funded schools in attendance. many examples of headteachers and teachers going We are continuing to do everything in our power to above and beyond to support their pupils, including in ensure that every child can be back in their classroom disadvantaged areas of Kent. Throughout, schools have safely. This is the best place for them to be for their supported one another and shared information with education and their wellbeing and development. This the Department for Education. The regional schools has not been an easy undertaking. School leaders, teachers commissioner for south-east England and south London and support staff have worked tirelessly to ensure that hosted roundtable meetings with academy trusts from their schools are open and safe for children and young across Kent in the summer term, and I am also aware people, and I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to that Alan Brookes, who as my hon. Friend mentions the very significant efforts during this very challenging chairs the Kent Association of Headteachers, has been time. I know that all schools are working to ensure that active in supporting his association’s headteachers remote education can continue for children in the event throughout this time and been supportive of the regional that they cannot attend school because of covid-19. For schools commissioner and their team. I am grateful for example, the Department has recently discussed remote all those efforts. education arrangements with the Stour Academy Trust Ensuring that schools provide high-quality remote which operates on the Isle of Sheppey. It is confident education was and continues to be a key part of our that its teachers are prepared to deliver remote education. work to support schools. We have invested more than In the event that bubbles of children need to isolate, live £100 million in remote education. We have already online lessons will be delivered, covering the same content delivered more than 220,000 laptops and tablets for as they would have covered in school. Systems are in disadvantaged children who would not otherwise have place to check the engagement of pupils and to monitor access to the internet, supporting disadvantaged children their progress. to stay online and connected with their teachers during The Department continues to work closely with the the summer term. Of those, 3,563 laptops and tablets Department of Health and Social Care to ensure that were delivered to Kent County Council for children staff and pupils have priority access to testing, an issue with a social worker and care leavers, and 437 for that worries my hon. Friend. Weare supplying coronavirus disadvantaged year 10s in local authority-maintained test kits directly to schools for those who develop symptoms schools, alongside additional devices delivered to academy and face significant barriers to accessing a test through trusts in the area. I am pleased to see that some schools existing routes. These test kits will help symptomatic have supplemented Government support to make devices staff who test negative and who are not close contacts more widely available. As my hon. Friend said, thanks of confirmed cases to get back to work as soon as they to the team at the Oasis Academy on the Isle of Sheppey, feel well enough. We are also keen to explore new all pupils in years 10 and 13 have access to a computer. testing technologies as they become available and to We are now supplementing that support by making understand how those kits could be utilised for the available an additional 250,000 laptops and tablets for benefits of the education sector. Small-scale pilots are disadvantaged children in years 3 to 11 in the event that beginning this week to help us better understand how face-to-face schooling is disrupted as a result of covid-19 they can be operationalised in schools. Those technologies outbreaks or local restrictions. As my hon. Friend says, will form the foundations for delivering mass testing: it is not acceptable for a child’s internet connection to testing large numbers of people in a short period of determine their educational outcomes. That is why we time with test results made available quickly so that have also provided more than 50,000 4G routers to help those tested can be reassured more quickly that they are disadvantaged children get online.Of those,500 4G wireless not infected or will isolate themselves more quickly if routers were delivered to Kent County Council for they are. This will help to protect those at high risk, to children with a social worker and care leavers, and find the virus and to help schools to get back to normal. 255 for disadvantaged year 10s in local authority-maintained The Government have provided considerable support schools, alongside additional 4G wireless routers delivered to schools to help them tackle these challenges. We have to academy trusts in the area. We are also working with invested in schools financially in three key ways. First, the major telecommunications companies to improve the Government are providing a package of additional internet connectivity for disadvantaged and vulnerable support worth £1 billion to ensure that schools have families. The Department is piloting an approach where the support that they need to help children and young mobile networks will provide families who rely on a people make up for lost teaching time. The figure that mobile internet connection with temporary access to my hon. Friend quoted for mainstream school support free additional data, offering them more flexibility to for schools in Kent is correct, although more than access the resources they need the most. £4.5 million has already been allocated if we include The steps taken to provide remote education and special schools. It is important to remember that this is initiatives such as the Oak National Academy have just an initial allocation with further allocations to helped ensure the continuity of education for pupils come. This is on top, of course, of the £2.6 billion during a uniquely difficult time. We know that time out increase this year in school budgets nationally. of school will have created gaps in educational attainment. Of this package, £650 million is being provided in the To address that, it was imperative for schools to fully form of a universal catch-up premium for all schools. open. The Government have successfully supported As my hon. Friend acknowledged, all children have had pupils in all year groups and from all types of schools to their education disrupted but, as he says, disadvantaged return to school full time from the beginning of the children will have been the hardest hit. That is why, autumn term. Figures show that, as at 15 October, alongside the universal catch-up premium—the £80 that 445WH Schools in Kent: Covid-1921 OCTOBER 2020 Schools in Kent: Covid-19 446WH he referred to—we are also launching a national tutoring While it is right that school leavers are supported, it is programme to provide additional targeted support for also right that parents, such as those in the constituency those children and young people who will need the most of my hon. Friend, understand how well their child’s support to catch up. All schools should use their catch-up school is serving them. For that reason, it is important premium funding as a single total from which to prioritise that we plan for routine inspections to return from support for all pupils guided by the level of individual January, although that date is being kept under review. need. Even the amount that he referred to as being The point my hon. Friend makes is good, and I can spread thinly—£80 per pupil and £80,000 for an average assure him that, when they do return, Ofsted inspectors comprehensive school—is free to be targeted by schools will be sensitive to the impact of the pandemic on where they think it is most required. schools. Secondly, the Government have worked with schools My hon. Friend also raises the important question of and communities to provide school food vouchers to exams. Assessment by exam will be part of a normalised support families in need. We recognise that there were year for this year’s cohort. We continue to believe that initial problems with the system but, ultimately, more exams are the best and fairest formal assessment. We than 20,350 schools have placed orders for the scheme continue to work with Ofqual and sector representatives and more than £380 million has been redeemed into to consider the best approach. Above all, the Government supermarket e-gift cards by schools and families. That want to ensure that the system is fair and robust. included cover over Easter, May half-term and the My hon. Friend is right to raise the important issue summer holidays. of mental health. As well as supporting schools to get Thirdly, the Department has been supporting schools back on their feet and supporting pupils to catch up financially with the additional costs they may have with their education, it is critical that the Government occurred between March and July as a result of the support the wellbeing of pupils and their teachers. The pandemic. Schools have already received payments of Department has worked with key partners, including £58 million in respect of their claims against those expenses, the Department of Health and Social Care, Health more than £2 million of which has been received by Education England, Public Health England and voluntary schools in Kent. We have also ensured that the schools sector organisations to launch the wellbeing for education in most need have access to expert support. In May return project. 2020, the Department began the school-to-school support The project, which is backed by £8 million, is training recovery offer to any school identified as vulnerable local experts to provide additional advice and resources because of the covid pandemic, with up to five days of for schools and colleges to help support the wellbeing, support from a system leader. In the summer term, the resilience and recovery of pupils, staff, parents and recovery offer supported about 300 schools, helping carers in the light of the ongoing impact of covid-19. It them to open to prioritised year groups. In the autumn will give staff the confidence to support pupils, students term the offer was extended and a further 100 schools and their parents, so that they know how and where to are being supported to reopen effectively.Some 10 schools access appropriate specialist support, where needed. in Kent are currently receiving support, and we continue Kent has been one of the mental health trailblazers. In to work with trusts and local authorities to identify May 2020, two mental health support teams were others that may require support. established in Thanet and Medway, building on the four existing teams in Kent. That all comes out of the Green Gordon Henderson: My right hon. Friend mentioned Paper on children and young people’s mental health. schools receiving the same amount of money, which Mr Pritchard, I am extremely grateful, as we all are, they could spend how they wanted and could channel for the exceptional efforts that schools, academy trusts towards disadvantaged pupils. That does not cover what and Kent County Council have made to support pupils, happens if that same amount of money goes to a school including those in the constituency of my hon. Friend that does not have any disadvantaged pupils. That was the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey, during this the point I was trying to make. We have got to target challenging period. We know we have the professional schools in disadvantaged areas, rather than those in knowledge and expertise in the education system to affluent areas. ensure that pupils and students recover, and get back on track, and help to ensure that this dreadful pandemic does not have a long-term impact on young people’s Nick Gibb: My hon. Friend makes a valuable and opportunities and life chances. important point. However, the sum of money is very large. We have secured £1 billion for the single task of Question put and agreed to. catching up. In the schools he refers to, even the most Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): Order. I suspend the assiduous pupil, who is working hard at home, will have sitting for two minutes. lost education compared to being in the classroom. We wanted to ensure that there was money for all schools to 4.39 pm address that concern, but I take his point. Sitting suspended. 447WH 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 448WH Government Use and Employment External Private Contractors: Interserve has clearly been in financial difficulty for Government Use and Employment some time. Last year,it went into pre-pack administration. At that time, the Labour party called for a temporary ban on Interserve bidding for public contracts, but that 4.41 pm call was not heeded. We know that Interserve was awarded a five-year facilities management contract worth Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): I beg to £670 million by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office move, in early August 2018. Shortly after that contract was That this House has considered Government use of external awarded, Interserve moved to cut staff, and Public and private contractors and effect on employment. Commercial Services union members went into a long- It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, running dispute over job cuts, pay, sick pay entitlement Mr Pritchard. The question before the House is the use and trade union recognition. The company issued profit of external private contractors and its effect on employment. warnings in March 2015, then two more in 2016, and I am grateful to hon. Members for participating in this another as recently as 2018. important debate. The recent pandemic has shone a Mitie has been involved in multiple disputes with its spotlight on public sector procurement and the awarding employees: we can cite the Royal Opera House, the of contracts. Although it is incumbent on the Government Houses of Parliament, First Great Western, London to ensure value for money for the taxpayer and quality Underground, and various NHS hospitals. It was subject of service delivery, they also have a duty, whether they to an investigation into its MiHomecare business by like it or not, to those workers tasked with delivering Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for paying its services on which both Government and public rely. I employees less than the minimum wage. Industrial relations believe that, on all fronts, the Government are failing in in Mitie are so bad that in March 2019, Unite the union their responsibilities in that regard and so are failing said that it should be barred from acquiring contracts taxpayers and workers alike. due to its woeful treatment of its workforce. That Unite Recent examples include the likes of Serco, which has warning is interesting, as even a few months ago it was received beyond hefty sums of taxpayer cash to run a clear that Mitie and Interserve were considering a deal. failed test and trace system. The revolving door of Government, ex-Ministers and outsourcing companies This is where the similarities with Carillion might be is pernicious in every sense and does little to instil interesting to consider, so what can we learn from the public confidence in a method of service delivery that is lessons of Carillion? The report of the joint inquiry by fundamentally flawed. I hope that other Members will the Select Committees on Business, Energy and Industrial speak more on this Government failure as the debate Strategy and on Work and Pensions recommended progresses. They will no doubt highlight other examples “that the Government immediately reviews the role and responsibilities of failed contracts worth hundreds of millions of pounds. of its Crown Representatives in the light of the Carillion case. This review should consider whether devoting more resources to I have chosen to concentrate on the example of civil liaison with strategic suppliers would offer better value for the service facilities management work in this speech, but if taxpayer.” we substituted for the civil service nearly every NHS trust, many councils and other public sector bodies, my I do not know whether that recommendation was acted observations would unfortunately still be valid. The on in relation to facilities management contracts in the experience of the civil service is generally the same as civil service, but it does not appear to have been exercised that across the public sector, but I particularly wanted in this instance to scrutinise Mitie and Interserve. to concentrate on the civil service, as I am hoping that Moving on to the issue of inequality in pay and Ministers will now start to consider the outsourcing employment terms, each civil service department has to model itself. comply with the public sector equality duty. The civil It goes without saying that if workers win improvements service does not have to award contracts where only the through union action, that immediately has an impact minimum wage is paid, statutory sick pay is given, and on the outsource company’sbottom line. Those companies, trade union recognition is not a right. It could choose to especially where there is no trade union recognition, make the payment of the real living wage, full sick pay from then tend to try to recoup lost revenue by cutting staff day one, and trade union recognition a condition of the or their working hours. There are natural limits to contract, as many local authorities have begun to do. productivity gains made through cutting staff. Inherently, Research carried out by the PCS union shows that the model is unstable and leads to companies running only two of the 23 ministerial Government Departments into financial difficulties. pay the real living wage to their facilities management Let us look at the Mitie-Interserve merger.My argument outsourced workers, and no Department includes a is well illustrated by the announcement in June that policy of paying more than the statutory sick pay as a Mitie and Interserve’s facilities management arm are to requirement of awarding a contract. Departments know merge at the end of the year, subject to shareholders that in their major urban areas, cleaners, security guards approving a £271 million share purchase. In reality, and so on are predominantly of black, Asian and Mitie is taking over Interserve. Both companies hold a minority ethnic origin, and nearly all cleaners are women number of civil service and public sector contracts, regardless of where they work. From the observations worth more than £2 billion of public money. Mitie’s of the PCS union, as relayed to me, senior managers biggest contract is for the provision of in-country and and certainly Ministers believe that outsourcing work overseas escorting for the Home Office. That contract is means they have no responsibility to those facilities worth £514 million. Interserve’s biggest contract is the management workers, whether in terms of pay, terms Department for Work and Pensions estate and facilities and conditions of employment, equality of treatment, management contract, worth £225 million. or health and safety. 449WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 450WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment If we look at that indifference to health and safety The Government should be ambitious and see what obligations, we find that even though health and safety services can now be brought back in-house.Fundamentally, laws put clear obligations on civil service departments the truth remains that when workers are paid properly and facilities management companies working in the and valued, productivity is better. After a long, difficult same buildings to co-operate and co-ordinate their health year for so many workers, the Government have often and safety at work—that is, regulation 11 of the waxed lyrical. It is high time that politicians clearly Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations show whose back they have—the cleaners, the contact 1999—in reality we have had immense difficulty in tracers, the security staff and all manner of low-paid getting the civil service to comply with the law. That staff, or the directors of outsourcing companies. indifference leads to what we see as a grotesque admission by the Cabinet Office, which we take as a proxy for the Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): I am going to set an civil service, that it does not know how many facilities informal time limit of three minutes, but if colleagues management workers have died due to covid, let alone could be a bit quicker we might have some time for a their ethnicity. We know that at least six facilities two-minute reply later. Obviously, there are five minutes management outsourced staff have died owing to the for the Scottish National party spokesman and the virus, all of them of BAME origin. shadow Minister, and 10 minutes for the Minister. Thank Turning to the issue of sick pay,in a recent survey—again you for your co-operation. conducted by PCS—86% of outsourced facilities management workers who responded said that they had 4.52 pm often continued to work when they had been unwell Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab): It is a pleasure to because they could not afford to take time off sick. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I am delighted that my first contribution in Westminster Hall Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): I thank is to a debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member my Unison comrade for giving way. To support that for Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker) on an issue particular proposition, there is a Unison briefing that that I care about deeply. shows that in schools in England, many of the private I declare an interest: for decades, I have been active in companies are only paying statutory sick pay. Does the the Labour movement and it was my great privilege to hon. Lady agree that this puts people in the position of have served for four years as regional secretary of Unite having to choose between statutory sick pay and going the union in the north-west. In that role, I represented into work, which is more likely to spread the virus? thousands of outsourced workers right across the north- west, in sectors as diverse as manufacturing, care and Paula Barker: Sadly,I concur with the hon. Gentleman’s catering. I saw at first hand how outsourcing has fostered observations. Covid-19 has brought into sharp focus a culture of low pay and insecure employment. Successive the inequality between the sick pay provisions of civil Governments have justified the race to the bottom on servants and those of outsourced workers employed on workers’ rights as a price worth paying for greater civil service contracts. efficiency, flexibility and value for money for the taxpayer. Through PCS talks during covid-19, most civil service The Institute for Government reported last year, departments adopted a policy of paying their outsourced however, that a string of high-profile outsourcing failures staff full pay for covid-19-related absences until the end had wasted millions of pounds, delivered poor services of June 2020. From July 2020, Cabinet Office guidance and undermined public trust. The collapse of Carillion was updated to allow the arrangement to continue in 2018 left the Royal Liverpool Hospital building years where appropriate. As part of PCS’s campaign to defend behind schedule, while the Government continued to and extend the right to full sick pay, it wrote to the award £660 million in public contracts to Interserve just Prime Minister in June, setting out the case for all months before it went into administration. In both outsourced Government workers to be paid full sick cases, it was the taxpayer who was left footing the bill, pay from day one. Disappointingly, there has been no and workers and service users suffered. response. This devastating pandemic has truly laid bare the Does outsourcing facilities management services achieve deep failings of outsourcing. This week, we learned that social value? The simple answer is no. Section 1(3) of the Government’s outsourced Serco test and trace system the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 requires a has failed to track almost a quarter of a million people public sector authority to consider how a procurement who have been in close contact with someone infected “might improve the economic, social and environmental well-being with covid-19. On the Wirral, just under 59% of people of the relevant area”. who have potentially been exposed to this terrible virus When awarding central Government contracts, the Cabinet have been contacted in the last week. Instead of the Office is obliged to consider the wider social benefits of world-beating system that the Prime Minister promised procurement to ensure that cost does not override other us, we have absolute chaos. Government considerations. It is not just Serco test and trace that has made I want to take the opportunity to thank you, private companies an absolute fortune at a time when Mr Pritchard, for overseeing today’s debate. Let us everyone else is making enormous sacrifices to win the move forward by initiating an open, frank and honest war on this terrible disease. External providers have debate, with which I hope the Government will actively profited at every level of the Government’s response to engage in the coming period. Value for money is not covid-19. In fact, the British Medical Association has always delivered by the current procurement and this month reported that the Government’s focus on outsourcing arrangements. For a Government who claim external providers has left public facilities often underused to pride themselves on hating waste, the reality is that and ignored. A vast range of companies have been paid nothing could be further from the truth. to produce, store and distribute personal protective 451WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 452WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment [Mick Whitley] The problems that have since arisen have shown the Serco system for what it is: completely unfit for purpose. equipment, manage the logistics of drive-in testing and By the end of August, after a month of encouraging British onboard returning healthcare workers into the NHS. people to eat out to help out, and around the time the That is despite the evidence showing that local public Government launched their back to work campaign, health teams are best placed to respond to this deadly track and trace was failing to contact more than 30% of virus. those who had been in contact with someone who had The Government continue to shell out millions of tested positive. Only 40% of test results were being pounds of taxpayers’ money to their friends in the returned within 24 hours. Since then we have seen private sector who simply cannot do the job. Meanwhile, lockdown after lockdown. Both lives and livelihoods the Chancellor has the audacity to say that the Government have been put at risk because of a Government so can afford to pay furloughed workers in my constituency wedded to the private sector that they are unwilling to only a measly two thirds of their wages, while quibbling admit their mistakes and give oversight to local health over the expense of providing free school meals to protection teams who, by the way, have reached 97% of vulnerable children during the holidays. close contacts of those testing positive, in contrast to Serco’s 62%. The Prime Minister has said that there are lessons to be learned from his handling of the covid-19 crisis. That It is not really a surprise that the system is doing so is unusual for him and is quite an understatement. One badly when we consider that staff employed by Serco to of the clearest lessons of all the outsourcing is that it work on track and trace have spoken of days without has been a failed project. As we face the worst economic contact from supervisors, or without being given any crisis in recent history, we need more than ever to put work to do. They are paid the minimum wage while social value at the heart of national and local procurement Serco’s profits have surged. Low-paid, badly trained strategies. That means creating secure and well-paid workers are not to blame for the failure of track and jobs, improving employment rights and promoting trace. The Government’s ideological obsession with ecologically sustainable developments. It means creating outsourcing and subcontracting is. Track and trace has economic growth that feeds back into our communities, failed, testing is in chaos, and the track and trace app is rather than just lining the pockets of a handful of mired in a multitude of technical issues. shareholders. We can do all of this and more, but only if In early February I was forced to self-isolate for two we stop handing millions to private companies and weeks after attending a conference where there was a invest in the public sector. coronavirus patient. I could not be told by the system at that time whether I had been in contact with that person 4.56 pm or not. When I returned here, I asked the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to introduce a track and Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I first trace app. He promised to look at it. Now, more than wish to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for eight months later, we still do not have a working app. Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker). In the short time Months of sacrifice and a Herculean effort on the she has been here, she has made a great contribution to part of the British people have been given scant regard the House. She has also made a great contribution to by the Government. Now we have businesses on the our party and to the union movement, where she spent brink and whole industries—tourism, hospitality and many years on exactly these sorts of issues. the arts, to name but a few—at serious risk of collapse. In May,the Prime Minister promised us a world-beating We are in recession and unemployment is climbing. track and trace system. What we have instead is a No one is asking the Government for instant medical system in disarray. The NHS Test and Trace system is solutions to coronavirus, but we need a track and trace not run by our national health service. Frankly, it is system that works to keep the public safe, delivered by offensive to link the NHS with the shambles that the local authorities with knowledge of the communities Government and the private sector have created. Our that they serve—not private profiteers, costing both track and trace system is provided by Serco, the outsourcing public money and the public’s lives. giant responsible for a plethora of well-documented scandals. There was the electronic tagging scandal for 5 pm which it was fined £23 million by the Serious Fraud Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Office. There was the extensive cover-up of sexual abuse serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I thank of vulnerable women at Yarl’s Wood, and there is the my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree ongoing scandal of asylum seekers’ accommodation (Paula Barker)—my former employer,no less—for securing and the “squalid, unsafe, slum housing”—not my words, the debate. I draw Members’ attention to my membership but those of the chief executive of the Refugee Council. of trade unions and donations from Unite, as set out in And Serco won a further £2 billion of contracts from my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. the Home Office last year. I also thank the PCS union, which represents more Why do the Government choose to award contracts than 8,000 workers employed by private companies on worth hundreds of millions to run track and trace Government contracts, for its ongoing work in this during a deadly pandemic, in what is literally a life-or-death area, particularly its campaign to bring outsourced jobs situation? Why have the Government ignored the back in-house, and for continuing to apply pressure on recommendations of the Scientific Advisory Group for contractors and the Government to pay a real living Emergencies and the BMA? Would it not make more wage—the one calculated by the Living Wage Foundation, sense for track and trace to be run by local public health not the one appropriated in a public relations stunt by experts? My Labour colleagues and I have been asking former Chancellor George Osborne—while continuing such questions since the contracts were awarded, but to fight for workers to have access to the terms and answers have not been forthcoming. conditions afforded to their civil service counterparts. 453WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 454WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment Last year I was proud to join more than 200 PCS Department for Work and Pensions, the Home Office, members in my constituency of Stockport when they took the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local industrial action over workloads, staffing levels and the Government and the Department of Health and Social oppressive working conditions that they were forced to Care—by between 30% and 50%, most drastically in the endure while working on universal credit reforms. The last couple of years. level of outsourcing, cost to the taxpayer and general They are the services that are most needed by the wastage of hiring private contractors in my region of public. Yet the outsourced market has an annual turnover Greater Manchester alone is truly eye-watering. It is a of £82 billion. Research by Unison shows that £9 billion legacy that we have been forced to endure since the has been paid in total cost overruns on 105 outsourced Thatcher era, and it has been a 30-year-long failed IT contracts in central and local government, the NHS experiment. and other public bodies. No one can ignore the latest Almost three years on from the collapse of Carillion, disastrous privatisation of the test, track and trace described at the time as the largest ever trading liquidation system, where some consultants are paid £7,000 a day. in the UK, lessons have failed to be learned and it is That is just under half of what civil servants on the slowly coming to light just how entrenched outsourcing lowest AO grade outside London earn in a year. has become in this country. In my region alone, the Despite its failure, Serco is set to generate between Manchester Evening News was able to unearth Carillion’s £160 million and £165 million in profits this year, thanks involvement in 10 major public and private sector projects, to its covid-19 contracts. Last year, the CEO, Rupert including Network Rail electrification, the M6 smart Soames, pocketed an estimated £4.5 million. It is not motorway work, High Speed 2, Airport City and Owens about the money, and nor is it about effectiveness. Park. It was also heavily linked to Greater Manchester Serco’s test, track and trace contract is running at 67% schools, roads and basic services, through contracts effectiveness, compared with the 97% effectiveness of with Manchester, Tameside, Rochdale and my own local public health teams. This is the same Serco that local authority, Stockport Council. In my borough, a was fined £2.6 million for shortcomings in relation to a Carillion offshoot was contracted to handle estates, contract for asylum seekers’ accommodation in January assets and facilities management at various sites. 2020 and that paid £22.9 million to the Serious Fraud That is all part of a staggering 10-year £100 million Office under its tagging contract, where it claimed for deal that was signed in 2014 to handle key development returned, released or even dead clients. services. Private contracting permeates every single stratum As long as someone is a friend of this Government, of our society, from Stockport Town Hall to Greater their ability to deliver is irrelevant. Now it appears that Manchester police. With local authorities already strapped Serco may be awarded a contract to run interviews with for cash by central Government, how can it be right that vulnerable asylum seekers for the Home Office. The they sign off multimillion-pound contracts with companies PCS union has serious concerns that the Home Office is that often have little to no track record of delivery, as cynically using the covid situation to bring in privatisation we have seen most recently in the Government’s decision through the back door, and I agree with those concerns. to outsource covid test and tracing to Serco? Months Outsourcing is most certainly not about improving later, we still do not have a functioning system like those terms and conditions—look at the ISS cleaners, in of our European partners. dispute with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for What is worse is that, despite paying such exorbitant several months, including in my Liverpool constituency, fees to private contractors, nothing is put in place to over the failure of companies to pay a living wage or ensure that workers are treated with dignity.For example, afford them the sick pay and holiday entitlement of earlier this year the PCS union led a month-long walkout their directly employed counterparts. Now the same in response to Interserve’s treatment of its staff, who company is bidding to take on HMRC’s security contract, were maintaining the then Foreign and Commonwealth which will lead to more job losses. Office premises. The move was the longest period of The rationale behind the massive outsourcing of public strike action in the history of the Foreign Office—all sector work to the private sector is driven by ideology because Interserve was not prepared to recognise trade and nothing else. It leads to job losses, insecure contracts, unionised workers and was continuing to drive down its lower wages and worse terms and conditions, but bigger staff through measures such as reducing working hours. profits for the Tory donors. I am fully behind our public It is not much to ask in return for multimillion-pound, sector unions—PCS, Unison and Unite—in fighting multi-year contracts that these organisations recognise back for a living wage, secure jobs and decent terms and trade unions. As we have seen time and again, these conditions and to save the public purse money, because companies will never prioritise workers’ wellbeing over it is becoming increasingly clear that privatisation is not private profit. It is time to end that practice once and for about saving public funds. all, bring these contracts back in-house and finally deliver the services that we so desperately need, efficiently and in a fiscally responsible way, if we are to kickstart 5.8 pm our economy again and recover from this crippling Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind): It is a pleasure pandemic. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree 5.3 pm (Paula Barker) on securing this important debate. Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): It is a Many elements of the UK’s public services that have pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. been central to the response to covid-19 have been I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree outsourced in recent years. The NHS supply chain, (Paula Barker) on securing this important debate. Civil which is responsible for delivering personal protective service numbers have gone down in key Departments—the equipment, was privatised in 2006. Since the disastrous 455WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 456WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment [Claudia Webbe] impact of covid-19 on its workload. The courts service expressed surprise and disappointment at the move, but Health and Social Care Act 2012, NHS outsourcing made no attempt to protect its staff when warned about and privatisation has been incentivised. In the last five it before the transfer. PCS insists that HMCTS is the years alone, private companies were handed £15 billion only Government agency to transfer staff into a known of NHS contracts. redundancy situation. I wholeheartedly agree with its According to research by We Own It, the Government concerns about that behaviour. Had the courts service are wasting as much as £10 billion a year on running an initiated a pre-transfer redundancy process, the affected internal market in the NHS. Every penny spent on NHS staff would have had official union representation privatisation and outsourcing is a penny less spent on throughout this traumatic process. Instead, they have patient care. The amount we spend on the internal been left high and dry because Marston refuses to market would be enough to pay for 72,000 nurses and recognise PCS. 20,000 doctors. It is the same pattern of privatisation Another example of the private sector profiting from and deregulation that has decimated many of our essential our justice system is the new generation of private services since the 1980s, across the transport, energy, prisons that are in the pipeline. At least five of the next water, mail and healthcare sectors. The British public six jails are set to be run by the private sector.Astonishingly, tend to pay more for these services than similar European private prisons do not reveal how many staff they nations, simply to enrich shareholders. employ,and nor are their minimum staffing levels specified During the coronavirus pandemic, outsourcing in contracts, yet it is widely accepted that prison has increased at an alarming rate. After suspending understaffing leads directly to extra violence. Private commissioning rules, Government Ministers have awarded prison operators, just like all corporate privateers, exist exclusive coronavirus-related state contracts worth more to maximise profit for shareholders, and that means than £10 billion to private companies. We only have to slashing costs—especially staff costs—to the bone. look at examples such as Randox. The Government No wonder private prisons are an average of almost have also spent £12 billion on a failed test and trace 50% more violent than public prisons, according to programme, which prioritises the enrichment of private Guardian research last year. I urge the Government to corporations over the protection of our communities. hold an independent inquiry into why private prisons Outsourcing does not just result in dangerously worse are more violent than public prisons before awarding outcomes. As many trade unions, inducing Unite, PCS, any more private prison contracts, and to ensure that Unison and others, have made clear, the incentivisation minimum staffing levels and union recognition are of outsourcing has a devastating impact on workers’ requirements for all private prisons. rights. Across the board, outsourcing has reduced wages, 5.13 pm increased workloads, provided minimal sick pay, and delivered worse conditions and, in many cases, worker Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It exploitation. is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree Following the return of full school opening, Unison (Paula Barker) for securing this debate on a really has begun a campaign to get all private companies that important issue. Outsourcing is a scam, an illusion, a deliver services in schools to pay full sick pay. I support con and an opportunity for jargon-filled management that important campaign, and I call on the Government consultants to do a flashy presentation about how they to extend sick pay and full working conditions to all can save a few quid from the bottom line, in the short workers, no matter their terms and conditions. term, at least. In the long run, the costs are high in lost I will end on this. The pandemic has demonstrated expertise and lost capacity, and the biggest cost of all is that an over-dependence on the private sector weakens for those long-suffering employees who end up on inferior our national ability to act in a time of crisis. For the terms and conditions, if they have a job at all. sake of public health, the Government must reassess Public and private sector companies alike have been their ideological commitment to outsourcing and seduced by the outsourcing mirage. The savings that are privatisation. dangled in front of them are not cost-free or painless. In almost every situation, the majority of the savings 5.10 pm come directly from the employees, either by paying Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): It is an honour them less or by having fewer of them. Of course, in to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I theory, employees’ terms and conditions are protected thank my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree under TUPE, but as an EU regulation it is now at the (Paula Barker) for securing this really important debate. mercy of the Government, who could decide to water it As a member of the PCS trade union, I wish to speak down or get rid of it at any moment. TUPE does not about the use of private firms across the justice system. need watering down; it needs strengthening. There are Millions of pounds have been wasted on outside agencies many ways that employers can evade TUPE protections, and contractors throughout the court reform programme both in terms of dismissals and changing terms and under Tim Parker. conditions after a transfer—if they could not, a major The ideological obsession with the private sector goes incentive for outsourcing would be removed at a stroke. far beyond the courts. Last month, dozens of civilian Why would anyone want to give up sick pay, overtime enforcement officers employed by Her Majesty’s Courts rates or other benefits accrued over, say, 20 years of and Tribunals Service were transferred to the private employment just because the name over the door has sector after years of failed attempts to outsource that changed? Is not the loyalty of the employee who has given sensitive work. One of the two contractors, Marston more than half their life worth more than a factual Holdings Ltd, immediately put its newly transferred reference and a redundancy payment that might be able workers at risk of redundancy, blaming the anticipated to buy them a second-hand car at the end of the 457WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 458WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment situation? Employers may say that that is not what they I realise that there were extenuating circumstances, want to happen, and that when they outsource employees, and some people do not handle moving area well, but they do not want to see anyone suffering, but that is others clearly excel, so there is no reason to bring in what happens all too often. Every time, that is because private contractors when we have the ability and foresight the original employer has washed their hands of the to plan ahead and upskill our own staff, allowing the situation. They have outsourced their employees, and private sector to make use of the resources, while we they have outsourced their legal obligations, but they train those who dedicate their life to public service. The have not outsourced their moral responsibilities, and social security office staff in Ann Street in Newtownards they will know, from the moment the transfer takes have got their heads round the brand-new benefits place, that the clock is ticking. system, which is quite difficult for them to use. They Insecurity is baked into the workplace, and it is given were able to rely on outside consultants and contractors, rocket boosters by the outsourcing industry. It is little but the staff that were there were retained, so the wonder that so many people feel a sense of helplessness. conditions remained in place. It does not have to be this way. Job security should be a Time does not permit me to continue, but I must be basic right in a civilised society, but we see the outsourcing clear. There are some things that must be outsourced, poison spreading everywhere at the moment. Often, the but others cannot and should be kept in-house. I want lowest-paid members of society suffer the most, being to make a plea for those who are in-house. and I recognise forced to give up hard-won terms and conditions, with those good employers who do the right thing. little that can be done to challenge that. Such are the warped priorities of this Government 5.19 pm that that happens at the same time as the obscenity of Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): It is a contractors getting paid £7,000 a day to run the abysmal pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. I refer to test and trace system. Never has the contrast been my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, starker, and never has the need for change been greater. my position as chair of the PCS parliamentary group Let us use the power of public sector finances to be a and my trade union membership of Unison, of which I force for good, let us keep things in the public sector, let have been a member of good standing for 25 years. It is us aim to be an exemplar in pay and conditions, and let pleasure to see a debate led by my Unison comrade—I us never give the private sector an excuse to justify believe it is her first in Westminster Hall—the hon. driving down people’s wages. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker). 5.16 pm I was in Westminster Hall on Monday evening, when I heard the far-right of the Conservative party wax Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I was a long way lyrical about immigration and slagging off other down the queue to speak, Mr Pritchard, and I was political parties, which were not there to defend themselves. worried about getting in, so I thank you and other hon. Is it not interesting that no Conservative Back Bencher Members for making that happen. I thank the hon. is here to defend the basic tenet of the Conservative Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker) for party’s political philosophy of private sector involvement bringing this issue forward. I have expressed concern in public services? Those watching the debate will be about it over a number of years as an elected representative. able to draw their own conclusions as to why that is. It seems like a lifetime ago—it probably was—that I I will concentrate some of my remarks on the Home sat on Ards Borough Council. I was very unhappy with Office pilot being carried out for asylum case interviews, the outsourcing of staff to agencies. While we advocated as touched on by the hon. Member for Liverpool, certain pay conditions and holidays, to get around that Riverside (Kim Johnson). Weunderstand that the company in practice, agency staff were used. Clearly, the agency involved is Serco, although the Government have yet to staff did not have the same conditions as others, and confirm that—it seems to be a secret pilot scheme. We that concerned me greatly. have to ask ourselves why that is the case. Is it because I agree with the use of agency staff for the short term the director general of UK Visas and Immigration for some staff members, but the agency had staff in happens to be a former employee of Serco? Perhaps place for over a year. As with all things, those in that is the reason why Serco has been drafted in to carry government, both local and central, must lead by example. out these asylum case interviews. I am pleased that Ards and North Down Borough It has not been touched on in the debate, but it Council, my local council, has taken the brave decision is important when discussing asylum case interviews to cut down on agency staff for the long term. That to say that the Government have argued in court, must be applauded. That means that the staff there now unfortunately successfully, that outsourced companies— have the pay and conditions that they should have had private contractors—carrying out public sector services at the very beginning. are exempt from human rights legislation. I have to say Bringing things in house should bring accountability, that I am fearful of the fact that a private sector and it sends the better message that we treat staff company is carrying out asylum case interviews. I would equally on pay and conditions. Civil servants are some have thought that we would want to make sure that of the brightest people we have. To think that we are someone’s human rights were respected in an asylum unable to train them in different skills and move them case interview—we would certainly expect their human into different areas of need does them a disservice. I saw rights to be protected. many examples during the lockdown of council staff That is one of the key reasons why I have consistently— stepping out of their office and into another role that before I arrived in this place and ever since—been needed filling. It was clear that the potential and the against the outsourcing agenda that the Government desire were equally matched, and they had the ability to have had for the last decade. My friend, the hon. do those things. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, and other speakers 459WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 460WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment [Chris Stephens] full sick pay, while outsourced cleaners or security staff face an impossible choice between coming to work with mentioned the rogues’ gallery involving Serco and its symptoms or being unable to pay their bills. There is test and trace system. A quite astonishing figure has cruelty and stupidity in that approach, in equal measure. been provided; the Boston Consulting Group is getting It is terrible for workers and extremely risky for infection eye-watering consultancy fees for this wonderful tests control. It has exposed the Government’s dependence and trace system that the Government talk about. Some on a small number of private firms to deliver vital consultants are earning £7,000 per day from the public public services, often with no clear evidence of their purse. I think we may be in the wrong job, Mr Pritchard, ability to do so competently, creating multiple layers of if that is what some people are getting. risk, both for staff and for those who rely on the We have heard about the impact of outsourcing on services those firms are contracted to deliver. terms and conditions—the cuts to wages and working Outsourced workers have been an integral part of the hours and the refusal of outsourcers to pay the living wage, frontline during the coronavirus pandemic. Thousands for example. We have seen great examples of trade are in roles such as cleaning, security and facilities unions fighting back on that, including the PCS, Unison management. Those jobs cannot be done on Zoom. and Unite, which have been mentioned. Those workers have continued to travel to work on In the moments I have left, I will ask the Minister a public transport, spending their shifts in contact with question on public procurement policy notes and the other workers or surfaces that have been touched by request for contractor relief to continue—I understand many other hands. Often, they are disproportionately it is due to expire on 31 October. The Minister has a from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds: letter in her possession from myself, as chair of the PCS BAME workers make up 16% and 26% of cleaners and parliamentary group, asking whether she could give an security guards, respectively, compared with 12% of the update on the public procurement policy notes and if wider workforce. They are key workers, those same key she will be amenable to the request that all staff who workers the Government clapped on Thursday evenings have to isolate should be given full pay during that earlier in the year. They have faced multiple risks to do absence. We are of the view that there is an opportunity their essential work, yet they have been left to fall here to help local communities to manage and recover through the cracks in the protections from which others from covid. who work in public service benefit. Mr Pritchard, I thank you for being in the chair The major driver for outsourcing is cost reduction. today. The outsourcing agenda is wrong. I believe that Studies have shown that all too often it leads to a the people of these islands should be entitled to strong deterioration in pay,terms and conditions for the workforce, public services and strong public sector delivery in including insecure contracts and a loss of access to public sector hands. benefits, such as pensions and sick pay. That approach is being applied across many different areas of public services. Unite, Unison, the GMB and the Public and 5.23 pm Commercial Services Union all have harrowing examples— Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): It too many to set out in detail in the time available is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, today—in which Tory austerity is paid for at the expense Mr Pritchard. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member of the mental, physical and financial wellbeing of for Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker) on securing outsourced workers in Government Departments, local this important debate and on her powerful speech, authorities and the NHS. which set up the multiplicity of ways in which outsourcing Yet the Government’s failing outsource model is simply is failing workers on pay, terms and conditions, job not delivering. That failure is illustrated most starkly security, and health and safety. today in the Serco and Sitel track and trace contract, a The devastating impact of these failings was illustrated shocking example of the Tory instinct to outsource in many contributions, including those from my hon. overriding all the evidence that local authorities are best Friends the Members for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley), placed to deliver a service that involves the day-to-day for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel), for Liverpool, Riverside investigation of contact between people in specific (Kim Johnson) and for Ellesmere Port and Neston geographical communities. The Government spent more (Justin Madders), and from the hon. Members for than £10 billion on a contract that has been subcontracted Leicester East (Claudia Webbe) and for Strangford to 29 different unnamed companies, creating a completely (Jim Shannon). My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport unaccountable tangle, and it seems that they are committed (Navendu Mishra) shared an example from his constituency to even more of the same. of outsourced workers in relation to universal credit In 2017, Carillion collapsed in an outsourcing scandal and being subject to exploitative practices. My hon. of national proportions. It became clear that Carillion Friend the Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) had built a house of cards, with undeliverable contract shared the example of staff at Her Majesty’s Courts stacked on undeliverable contract, and a huge web of and Tribunals Service who were outsourced, only to smaller firms entirely dependent on it. Seven hundred find themselves made redundant. There were many and eighty firms went into liquidation as a consequence other examples, and I thank all hon. Members who of the collapse of Carillion, and more than 3,000 people contributed to the debate. lost their jobs. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds The coronavirus pandemic has shone a bright light West (Rachel Reeves) led the investigation into Carillion on the Government’s broken model of outsourcing. It as Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Energy has exposed the grotesque inequality of terms and and Industrial Strategy, and Labour is committed to conditions of employees working side by side in the implementing the lessons of that sorry tale—it is beyond same Departments—civil servants able to self-isolate on comprehension that the Government are not. 461WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 462WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment Instead, it would appear that the Government are now even necessary. We also use professional services firms content for the two largest Government contractors, to support the implementation and delivery of services—for Interserve and Mitie, to merge. The merger would create example, PwC supported the delivery of the reform the UK’s largest facilities management company, with programme for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals almost 80,000 employees, yet both companies have had Service—and we use contingent labour to fill gaps in financial problems in recent years, both have a poor history business-as-usual or service delivery activities. It is also of industrial relations and, since they are competitors, the right to say that the civil service itself has grown in merger is a back-door route to obtain contracts that they number over recent years, partly because of the EU exit were previously not considered good enough to be awarded. operations but also because of covid. We have recruited In conclusion, I ask the Minister what assessment an extra 6,000 civil servants in the Home Office, for she has made of the impact of the proposed merger of instance, to tackle security, counter-terrorism, crime Interserve and Mitie on employee terms and conditions, and policing issues. on redundancies, and on the quality of services that will I will now address some of the points made by the be delivered. What assessment has she made of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree. I met the leaders social value that the merger will bring? What evidence of the three civil service unions yesterday. I have not has she seen to give confidence that this is not another been in post for long, so it was simply an introductory Carillion waiting to happen? What discussions has she meeting, but I know that some of those unions also had with trade unions on the disparity in terms and represent workers within private sector contracting conditions for outsourced workers in Government buildings companies, and I will be very happy to look into some and frontline public services during the coronavirus of the issues that she raised today about outsourced pandemic? Does she know, and will she name, the workers and their pay and conditions, particularly as 29 companies delivering track and trace services for regards sick pay. Serco? If not, why not? Finally, and most importantly, what is her message to outsourced key workers on Other Members have also raised issues about working Government contracts, supporting and delivering vital conditions during the pandemic and it is important to public services, who are fearful today about the safety say that not everybody can work over Zoom. In many of their workplace or their journey to work, and are ways, it is a privilege to be able to do so and not to have worried that if they develop coronavirus symptoms and to go into an office. On the other hand, I am also aware have to self-isolate, they will have to choose between the many workers’ office jobs are not easily conducted at health and safety of their colleagues and the wider home, and it is important for the Government, as an public, or their ability to put food on the table? employer, to provide safe work spaces, so that we can take into account those who are in shared or cramped 5.29 pm accommodation. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree also talked (): It is a pleasure to serve under your about delivering social value through contracts, and we chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. quite agree. We recently took a new look at social value, considering how we take into account environmental I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, factors in how contracts are delivered, whether a contractor Wavertree (Paula Barker) for securing the debate. The is improving the skills of their workforce or their approach Government are the custodian of public money and it is to apprenticeships, and so on. We will look at social very important that we retain the confidence of taxpayers value in quite a comprehensive way, because once the about how that money is spent. It is similarly important EU transition period has ended, we will be in a position that we have a robust, highly skilled civil service, with to come up with a new procurement strategy. Indeed, the expertise and capacity to deliver projects and services we are working very hard to draw that up. She raised a over the long term and at pace, and that we treat those number of issues about how we extract value from in the private and public sectors who carry out work for existing Government contracts, and I will take those the Government with respect. That is why I welcome away to consider them. not only the way in which the hon. Member has raised issues about external private contractors but the respectful The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) way in which she makes her case. made a number of important points, but it is important The civil service has historically used contractors, that we recognise that we could not have responded to working alongside civil servants, to provide additional some of the challenges of the pandemic without expertise capacity and specialist skills and to manage short-notice from both the public sector and the private sector. urgent requirements. Where it is cost-effective to do so Again, I assure him that social value is at the heart of and the requirement is temporary, this makes sense, but the new procurement strategy that we are drawing up, let me also be clear that we are focused on driving down particularly on issues such as climate change and waste. the use of consultants, improving internal civil service The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) capability and driving greater value. We will do this in a raised a number of important issues about track and variety of ways: revamping our in-house training; looking trace. We all want this system to work. Let us not again at procurement rules, particularly relating to pretend that it has been perfect from the outset, but a social value; and continuing the work of my predecessor, lot of things have been done to improve that service and now the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media we are now conducting hundreds of thousands of tests and Sport, in dealing with issues about outsourcing daily. We hope to be on track to deliver—I do not want raised following the collapse of Carillion. to get the number wrong, but there is certainly a much Consultants are used to provide advice on the strategy, increased capacity when it comes to testing and we have structure, management or operations of an organisation, ironed out some of the problems that we saw around and where an external perspective may be helpful or September with demand on the system. 463WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 464WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment [Julia Lopez] The hon. Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) raised a number about the justice system, but I am It is also important that we understand that this afraid that, as a Cabinet Office Minister, I do not have process is a partnership between national and local, and the expertise on some of the issues she raises. I am between public and private, and I think that it is naive happy to look into them for her and reply in writing. to suggest that the public sector alone could have built The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston up this service so quickly and delivered it at such a great (Justin Madders) raised a number of issues on contractor pace. We appreciate the expertise that we have received pay. I am working on the very issue of value from from the private sector. contractors with my ministerial colleague, Lord Agnew. Some hon. Members may be aware that he has recently Alex Sobel: Local authorities can furlough staff, so set out his concern about some of the reliance in Whitehall many local authority staff who could not do their on management consultants and that we have infantilised normal jobs were still employed by the local authority. civil servants and deprived some of our brightest public There was capacity in local authorities to deliver this servants of programme. Should that capacity not have been taken up and used before going to the private sector? “opportunities to work on the most challenging, fulfilling and crunchy issues.” Julia Lopez: It is important to understand that the Our reliance on consultants and other contractors can, private sector has provided the framework for the system, at times, hinder the development of internal civil service with local authorities able to plug into that framework. capability. We have discussed that at length and are keen The private sector provides the national call centres and to improve what we do in terms of in-house learning so on, but a lot of the local expertise is provided at local capability and expertise. level from healthcare experts on the ground, particularly I am always glad to see the hon. Member for Strangford in some of those harder-to-reach instances where we (Jim Shannon) in this Chamber. He talked about civil need to go knocking on people’s doors. Ultimately, we service churn and skills, and I reassure him that we want share the hon. Gentleman’s aim to improve the service to upskill our civil service. We are looking again at the and build plenty of public confidence in it because it is quality of our training, as I mentioned, and he might be such a key tool in dealing with the pandemic. interested in the comprehensive Ditchley lecture given The hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) by my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath is a PCS union member, and I met his leader yesterday. (Michael Gove), which talks about some of these issues. It is important to remember that successive Governments of all colours use outsourcers. In a previous life, I was a There are many other issues to cover,but I am cognisant councillor in Tower Hamlets. There were a number of of the time. I reassure hon. Members that we need outsourced contracts there and not very impressive tighter controls around contractor expenditure, supported in-house management of them, I should say.Outsourcers by better quality data and management information. can provide a lot of expertise and capacity and it is naive to suggest that the public sector alone has all that Chris Stephens: Will the hon. Lady give way? capacity and expertise in house. Let us not do down some of the people who work for those contractors and Julia Lopez: I do not think I have time to give way. bring a lot of capacity and sense to the system. Mr Pritchard, what time does the debate finish? Both the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Mark Pritchard (in the Chair): The debate will finish Johnson) and the hon. Member for Leicester East (Claudia at 5.41 pm. Webbe) seem to take an ideological view that effectively says private bad, public good. That is a great shame because it fails to acknowledge what the private sector Julia Lopez: I want to leave time for the hon. Member can provide for public good. for Liverpool, Wavertree to respond, so I will not give way. There will always be situations where it makes sense Claudia Webbe: Leicester has been in extended measures to use contractors, working alongside our high-quality and lockdown for the longest time, as the Minister will civil servants, to deliver specialist advice and services appreciate. On the test and trace system alone, the and to tackle short-notice urgent requirements where private contractors delivering that have a success rate of the civil service does not have sufficient capacity. We less than 50%. Our own local authority,which understands also need to reverse the trend we have seen over recent the issues, was able to deliver a success rate of more years, which has eroded civil service capability and led than 85%. That is the difference between the private and to an over-reliance on consultants and other contractors. the public sector. That is the reality. It is not ideological; Hon. Members raised a number of other issues today it is the reality on the ground. That is what is happening about outsourcing and I am happy to take them away. I and it is serious. thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree again Julia Lopez: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. for her thoughtful contribution. Does she believe that the local authority in Leicester would be capable of delivering a fully functioning test- 5.39 pm and-trace system that would do all that such a system needs to do? I think that is not the case. The private Paula Barker: I thank you, Mr Pritchard, for chairing sector has been able to achieve impressive things during this important debate today,and I thank all hon. Members the pandemic and provide a lot of public good at speed who have spoken and the Minister for her considered and in innovative ways. That has been critical in approach. procurement of all manner of goods and services, from The Minister said that the Government are the custodian PPE to new diagnostics, which have been fundamental of public money, and that it is important to retain to how we have protected the public. public trust. I reiterate that public trust is at an all-time 465WH External Private Contractors: 21 OCTOBER 2020 External Private Contractors: 466WH Government Use and Employment Government Use and Employment low, particularly in my constituency. I would be grateful That this House has considered Government use of external if the Minister can take up the very important issues private contractors and effect on employment. raised today. Question put and agreed to. 5.40 pm Resolved, Sitting adjourned.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 21 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 1052 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—continued Engagements...... 1052 Education: Equality of Opportunity...... 1047 Engagements...... 1059 Equal Access to Opportunity...... 1043 Kettering General Hospital...... 1059 Equal Rights for LGBT+ People: International Promotion...... 1047 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1043 Female Entrepreneurs: Government Support...... 1044 Abortion Clinics: Protection from Intimidation or International Trade: Business Opportunities for Protest...... 1050 Women...... 1049 Covid-19: Risk and Outcome Disparities...... 1048 Science, Technology and Emerging Industries: Covid-19: Support for Older People...... 1044 Girls and Young Women...... 1049 Covid-19: Women Leaving the Workforce...... 1045 Topical Questions ...... 1050 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 28 October 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 682 Wednesday No. 124 21 October 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 21 October 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1043] [see index inside back page] Minister for Women and Equalities Prime Minister

Covid-19 Restrictions: South Yorkshire [Col. 1065] Statement—(Edward Argar)

Vehicle Registration Offences (Penalty Points) [Col. 1079] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Andrew Griffith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [13th allotted day] Additional Covid-19 Restrictions: Fair Economic Support [Col. 1081] Motion—(Angela Rayner)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Steve Barclay)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Free School Meals [Col. 1130] Motion—(Kate Green)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Gavin Williamson)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1177]

Hedge End Train Station: Accessibility [Col. 1180] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Exiting the European Union (Immigration) [Col. 1193] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Insolvency [Col. 1197] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Public Health [Col. 1200] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Public Health [Col. 1202] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Community Infrastructure Levy [Col. 1205] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Persecution of Christians and Freedom of Religion or Belief [Col. 381WH] Right to Food in Legislation [Col. 407WH] Support for People and Businesses in Wales: Covid-19 [Col. 414WH] Schools in Kent: Covid-19 [Col. 439WH] External Private Contractors: Government Use and Employment [Col. 447WH] General Debates

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]