Interview of Jerry D'Aloia and Barbara D' Aloia

Interviewed on October 2, 2002

Interviewed by Benjamin Filene and Ayesha Shariff of the Minnesota Historical Society for the Open House Project Exhibit

JerryD'Aloia - JD Barbara D'Aloia - BD House Benjamin Filene - BF Ayesha Shariff - AS Open BF: .. .life in that house was like inside of it but, then, also using it Societyas a way of trying to learn about what people's lives were even outside the house, peopleProject who passed through there, so it's kind of chance just to learn about people. We don't even know yet exactly what we're going to end up with in tenns of [unclear]. It's been interestingSociety to just see what we can learn, who we can [unclear].

I'm Benjamin Filene. Could you say your names, too? HistoryHistorical JD: I'm Jerry D' Aloia. HistoricalOral BD: Barbara D' Aloia.

BF: You were born right. .. ? Minnesota JD: I was born on Collins Street, that's now Tedesco [Street], right behind Morelli's Store. Later on, we moved.Minnesota My father bought the place at 470 Hopkins Street and my cousin lived right next door in 472, the duplex. We had some pretty good times there.

When I was child, there was a lot ofthe things that did happen. In 1939, 1940, that was probably the best time of my life ... 1941, excuse me. My father was still healthy and, then, from that time on ... In 1942, he got a stroke and, then, my mother came down with cancer and by 1947, they were both dead. I was about sixteen, seventeen years old. Anyway lot of things did happen there.

I can remember making wine down there. My dad and his brother-in-law, I think it was, or uncle ... It was my mother's brother, [unclear] Cucchiarella that was there, and they built this winepress down in the basement. I'd still like to see that sometime. It was a pretty big piece of equipment. They made wine back in the 1920s when it was legal to make wine for your own family.

BF: How do you do that? Do you remember anything about the process or what it looked like?

JD: Oh, yes. I couldn't tell you the times that they put together, in other words the certain period of time. They would buy the grapes by the truckload, you know, because they were making a lot of wine, good enough to last for a whole year for, say, the Cucchiarellas, [unclear] Cucchiarella and those who lived right next door and my family and then T. John Frascone. He just lived down the street. They were cousins. So, they would get together and they would buy the grapes from Damiani, see? They'd come over and then they'd make it. They'd make wine and it was enough for a whole entire year. Well, you have to know that these Italians drank an awful lot of wine. [laughter] So, I mean, they made quite a bit, but it was legal for that time. ThenExhibit after Prohibition, the restrictions were lessened a little bit. Until about, I think it was, 1939, 1940, then they found out we had wine and, then, they decided to tax it. I can remember the tax stamps. They came down and put them on the barrels. House Getting back to the process, the grapes would come in and we'd have full barrels with the heads taken off the barrel. Then, we had a wine crusher that would sit right on top. Back in the old country, they didn't have the wine crushers. They did haveOpen them, but only the very wealthy people could afford one, otherwise, you'd stomp them with your feet. [sound of stomping] They did but Society their feet would be purple for months afterwards. [laughter]Project Then, they had the boots and they would use boots. I can remember that, before we got the wine crusher. It was just a big hopper with a crank on it and it had gears that crushedSociety the grapes. It went into this barrel. It would take, I couldn't tell you, maybe ten days, a week to ten days. It would ferment and give off carbon dioxide. It got to be pretty strong down there. We'd haveHistory to keep the windows open and keep the air fresh or you could become over. .. Well, at that time, it wasn'tHistorical that much, but it would get to you after a while, so we kept the basement windows open to circulate the air. It would work. Actually, it would come to almost like a rolling boil andOral it would just come and these grapes would flow through the top and the juice would getHistorical to the bottom. When the process stopped, when the alcohol reached approximately ten to twelve percent, then the fermenting process would quit.

The reason I know this is becauseMinnesota I worked in a brewery most of my life and the process is pretty much the same, except for the amount of alcohol in the beer. They kept the beer cold or cool to a point whereMinnesota the alcohol only goes so far and then it wouldn't ferment anymore and then they would take it out.

Getting back to the wine ... Then, they would pull the plug out ofthe bottom ofthe keg and the wine would just come pouring out. You'd have to have another big container to catch it. One would fill and you'd move it to the next one. As that thing would go down, it'd get to the bottom and the wine would just sit there. No more wine would come out of it. Then, we'd have to take the grapes out of that barrel, put them in the winepress and squeeze the rest of the wine out.

2 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview One thing I can really remember, [sound of smacking lips] that wine was the sweetest thing you ever drank in your life when it came out freshly fermented. [chuckles] You've never tasted anything so sweet. It was almost like a sugary, sweet champagne. IfI remember rightly, I drank enough of it to get me pretty sick after a day or so. [laughter] My father kept saying, "Don't drink so much. Don't drink so much. Just taste. Just taste." He knew what he was doing, you know. Yes, after that episode-I must have been ten or twelve, somewhere in there, years old. I don't think I had another glass of wine ... I must have been thirty years old before I ever even looked at ... [laughter] Well, maybe not that old, but, you know. That was a good experience. He knew what he was doing. He let me get enough of it and I got sick enough and that was it. It was quite a while I didn't drink any wine after that.

BF: So, the taxing thing was during Prohibition? No. After Prohibition? Exhibit JD: The stamps was after. This was probably in the late 1930s.

BF: What happened? How did they figure out. .. ? House JD: They would come in and check it out, you know, and then they would tax it. It was a way of getting additional revenue-that's what I thought anyway-for the time. We couldn't have enough ... If you had over the amount you could use in aOpen year, then you were doing something illegal. I guess that's probably what it was. Society Project BF: They'd come in with a stamp and they would paste it on each bottle? Society JD: No, not on the bottle, on the kegs. It would be in the kegs till it aged. I don't know how long that took, but it took a while. Then, it wouldHistory transfer [unclear]. We used to have these five-gallon glass acid bottles that they got [unclear]. They we'dHistorical put it in that or bottle it in bottles. At night, every once in a while, one ofthose bottles would explode [speaks in gibberish, implying cursing]. I could hear my dad cursing Historicalin the otherOral bedroom. [laughter] [speaks in gibberish, implying cursing] One of those bottles would blow, you know. Yes, that was funny.

BF: We had some things that we've heard about from Michelina [Frascone], [unclear] stories from her. She would tell us things thatMinnesota we thought we should hear from you. We also talked to Nellie [Frascone]. Minnesota JD: Yes.

BF: For example, can you tell us about Michelina and Russell's wedding? We heard that you provided the chickens.

JD: [chuckles] Oh, that was quite an operation. This was during World War II, you know, and meat was rationed. Most food was rationed. Sugars and meat and poultry was all rationed. I was selling papers downtown and right across from the post office, there was a poultry house there where the farmers would come. Oh, they would hatch chickens out, different kinds of chickens, you know. 3 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview And, anyway, she was getting married and we were trying to figure out how we were going to feed the people for the wedding, you know. I was thinking about it. I walked by there and I see those chicks. I went in there and checked it out. Uhhhh, I went back. I'd saved my money. I think I bought 150 chickens. A lot of them died. We took the chicks home and we had them in a big old cardboard box. I couldn't tell you .. .I would say maybe 80 to 100 that we had. Some ofthem died as chicks, because it was in the winter months when I brought them home.

BF: Where did you bring them? Where did you put them?

JD: In the basement in a cardboard box.

Right on the end of Payne A venue, going down Seventh Street, there was a flourmill there. They would unload boxcars and there was always grain on the ground. This was probablyExhibit six, eight weeks before the wedding. I would go down there. After I sold papers, I'd go down there and I'd pick up ... I had a sack of papers and I'd fill it up with grain, as much as I could gather and we fed the chicks. I don't know if we ground it up. We used chickenfeed. We bought some chickenfeed when the chicks were real young, but after they got to maybe two, three weeks old,House then they could eat the grain. So, we fed them on that anyway. They were getting big, so then we had to set a fence up that Russell and I worked on. We made a chicken coop out in back alongside the garage. We built a chicken coop out of old refrigerator doors that he got from theOpen railroad. They were going to bum them anyway. So, we put those all together, put a roof on it, and we had a chicken coop back alongside Society the garage, and we built a fence around it. Then, of course,Project as they were getting bigger, I needed more grain, so I was making a trip everyday down there to pick up the grain. Society Anyway, come the day of the wedding ... Now the chicks were about, like I say, six to eight weeks old at the time. The day before the wedding,History we had a big process where we butchered all the chickens and cleaned them all out. It was kind ofHistorical a community deal there: Mickey [Michelina Frascone], my mother and my Aunt [sounds like Zia-ahz] and I think Molly DePalma probably helped out at that time andHistorical Jenny Masche,Oral next door. BF: This was in the yard?

JD: Well, in the house. We tookMinnesota them down in the basement, butchered them down there and cleaned them out. Then, of course, we had no refrigeration. We had a refrigerator back then, one of the few peopleMinnesota that actually had one, but there was no way we could put all those chickens in. But we had Fatty Joe right down on the comer of Hopkins and Brunson [Street]. It was an icehouse there. He had his icehouse, so we took all these chickens in pots and pans, all we could get our hands on. We took them down there and put them in the icehouse until the next morning so they could be chilled.

Let's see, the next day, we got up early in the morning. My sister, she was all excited about getting married, you know. My mother and my [sounds like Zia-ahz] and a couple other ladies came over. We had pots and pans from all over the neighborhood to cook all these chickens then, see? In the meantime, I went over and started a good fire in Lena Fallace's garage, which is two houses down, a 4 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview big outdoor oven in the garage, outside oven, a brick oven. We stoked a good fire in there and we let it cook for about two hours. In the meantime, the fire was going strong in there. The chickens were all prepared with the potatoes and everything else in pans. It was a pretty good size oven. We managed to get them all in there in one shot. We actually had to put the fire out first. The fire was burnt down. It was just that the embers were left in there. We had great big washtubs. We just dragged the fire out, put them in the washtubs, and that was it. Put the chickens in there and then we went to the wedding. It was started at nine o'clock in the morning. [laughter] Back then, the [St. Ambrose] Catholic Church had either the choice of nine 0' clock or ten 0' clock and most of the time, it was a nine 0' clock wedding. We got them in the oven and by the end of the wedding. .. They had their pictures taken in the studio and, then, they went to Como [Park] and some of the people just took snapshots of them. In the meantime, as much as I can remember, we got everything together and, then we had enough to feed the whole wedding party, all the family, and all the friends and relatives that were invited to the wedding. That was about it for that. It wasExhibit interesting the way it was done. We still had a lot of vegetables and all that good stuff, you know, to go along with it.

BF: That's great. Now, is that the same oven down the street where they baked bread? House JD: Yes, yes, that was like the community oven down there. They were nice people. I don't know who built it. I think it was probably her first husband ... Lena. Lena's first husband was, let's see .. .1 can't think of the name now. He got killed anyway. HeOpen was making moonshine and the still blew. [chuckles] That's as much as I. .. I didn't know him. That was beforeSociety my time. That was back in the 1920s. That's the way I heard it. He got killed whenProject the still blew up on him. BF: What stoves were used for what? ThereSociety was that outdoor stove, but wasn't there also a ...

JD: Well, that was the oven. That was the big oven. HistoryHistorical BF: But, in the Hopkins Street house ... ? HistoricalOral JD: Oh, we had a regular stove. It was a wood and gas stove, but we used mostly wood because we could bake. .. Gas was more expensive back in those days.

BF: There was also like an Isinglass?Minnesota

JD: The firstMinnesota one we had ... No, the Isinglass, that was the heat. That was a big old potbellied stove and it sat right in the living room. Excuse, me, it was the dining room. It was in the center of the house. Then, they had the radiator holes in the ceiling. We called them radiators. The heat would go up in there. Well... [chuckles] A little heat would get up there. My father put in hot water heat. Probably around 1938, 1939, they put that in. That was still a wood and coal fire furnace and wood was cheap because we ~ould bum railroad ties.

My dad was a tough old guy. He would come home with a block of ice on one day on his shoulder for the refrigerator, the icebox. It would be about maybe a twenty-five-, thirty-pound, maybe a forty­ pound block of ice. On the opposite days, he'd come home with a railroad tie on his shoulder. He'd 5 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview· come from the Jackson Street shops all the way over. I didn't realize how heavy those railroad ties were until we built that... My son, Mark, put a retaining wall up at his house in North Hudson and we put it together with those old railroad ties. Oh! [laughter]

BF: Wow.

JD: Oh, yes.

BF: When he put the new heater in, did the Isinglass stove get taken out?

JD: Oh, yes, because then that was now central heat.

BF: Central heat, but wood burning central heat? Exhibit

JD: Wood and coal. The furnace was down in the basement and it was all piped up. It was gravity fed. In those days, they didn't use pumps on that. They used big pipes, two-inch pipes going out of the furnace and, then, they'd lead off, go to the rooms up in the ... Housecome right through the living room walls, not in the walls, outside the wall. Then, they would go up into the next floor and they'd have heat up there. It was all gravity fed, but the main lines were two-inch lines. Open BF: Do you remember what the old one, the Isinglass one, used to look like? Society Project JD: Oh, yes. I see them every once in a while. You'll see them at these ... In fact, a friend of mine has got one, but it's small ... the Hoffmans, SocietyLouis Hoffman. It was nickel-plated. Oh, it's a beautiful piece. He's got it still in his office. It's a small version of the big ones that they had. This was more ofa space heater. Yes, you'd put a fire in thereHistory and you could see the fire burning. You'd open it and you'd start it from the inside. Once it got started,Historical then you'd open the top part and pour the coal in through the top, see? You had a big bucket with a spout on, tip it up and pour them in there. Then, you'd stoke it up and get a goodOral fire going and go to bed at night and, then, Dad would get up somewhere around four o'clockHistorical in the morning, somewhere around that time, and stoke it up again so that it would heat up. Then, he would do the same thing down in the basement when you had the furnace. Of course, the heat was a lot nicer then. The upstairs was just as warm as the downstairs. Minnesota BF: Yes, that must have been a big improvement. Minnesota JD: Oh, god, yes. [chuckles]

BF: That's all you had for the whole house, right, was the one Isinglass?

JD: One Isinglass, yes. Well, there was the one there, but then we had the stove in the kitchen. That was always going, because we used to cook on it. We'd stoke a fire in that, too. That had a separate stack run up in the kitchen. It went straight up.

BF: Did you live in the house until you went ... ? When did you leave the house? 6 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview JD: In 1955, 1956.

BD: [Nineteen fifty-] four.

JD: No.

BD: We moved when Michael was born.

JD: I was thinking 1956,1955. We got married in 1954. We moved out somewhere around 1957. We lived there until 1957.

BF: When did you go to the war? Exhibit

JD: Oh, I went in in 1952. I went in in January 1952 and I was in until December 1953. I spent two years in there. House BF: You were living in the house right up till that point?

JD: Yes, till I went into the service. Then, when I cameOpen out, that was in December 1953. Then, in June of 1954, we got married and, then, we lived there until aroundSociety 1957. When we built, we built the house next to Auntie Mickey. We built the two housesProject together at that time. BF: I've seen at least one picture of you in Societyuniform from that period. Can you tell us-this is sort of a vague question-just what that was like at that time to go into the service? History JD: See, what happened, I had joined the ReservesHistorical when I was in high school, the Naval Reserve, before anything happened over there in Korea. When the Korean War broke out, I was still in the Reserves and they didn't callHistorical us rightOral away. Some of my buddies were, in fact most of them ... I talked to them and I said, "Hey, guys, you can join the Reserves, but there's a war going on and if don't want to go and get your butt shot off, you better join the Navy." About that time, they called me in. I got the word like in probablyMinnesota September. They called me and I had to be in the Navy in December, late December. .. early January, excuse me.

BF: WhatMinnesota were you doing at the time? Were you working?

JD: Yes, I was working at Brown & Bigelow at the time. I worked in the plant out there.

So, I told them, "Maybe you guys better get going otherwise ... If you don't want to be a foot soldier, you better join the Navy." Anyway, they all did. I was in for two years. They had to join for four years. I was actually in the Reserves, so I had two years in the Reserves and, then, I went in as a sailor. Of course, at the time I didn't know if! was going to be out in two years or not, because until 1953, in July, somewhere in there, the war ended over there in Korea.

7 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BF: You went over to Korea?

JD: No, no. Most of them were in the Pacific Fleet.

Buddy Frascone ... that's a strange story there, too. When I was in the Navy, they were building the DEW Line [Distant Early Warning] Stations up in Labrador, Newfoundland, and the Baffin Islands, and up in Thule, Greenland. That's the northern most part of Greenland. Anyway, in one of those ports, I'm sitting there reading a letter from my sister. I had written her asking her to find out what ship that Bud, Donald, Frascone was on. She had written back to me. Now, this took about a month each way. [chuckles] And, I got it and I'm sitting there and I'm looking and see "AGB-5, the [USS] Staten Island." So, I'm reading this and I'm sitting on a cleat up there on the fantail of the ship and I'm looking out and here's this great big "5" starring at me from across the bay. I thought, I wonder if that's the Staten Island or not. So, I walked up on the bridge and I checkedExhibit with the quartermaster up there, "What's the name of that ship?" He said, "That's the Staten Island." "I've got a buddy of mine that's been on it." We'd been going up there all this time and this waS in late August now. [chuckles] Anyway ... So, I got a M-boat. I had permission from the captain to take a M-boat over there and visit him. So, I get up the steps and the officer of theHouse deck says, "What are you doing here?" I said, "I come up to see Buddy Frascone. He's a radio man." He said, "Yes, you better get a hold of him real quick. I'll call him and get him down here. We're going back to the States." So, my boat was already back. They had to put one of theirOpen boats in the water to take me back. In the meantime, I said, "Hi, Buddy. Goodbye." I had to get down and go. That was it. That was a hell of Society a thing back in the 1950s. Project BF: Great reunion. Society JD: Great reunion for about three or four minutes.History They were getting underway. Once they start that process, there's no stopping it, you know. Historical

BF: Tell me some of whatHistorical you did whileOral you were in the service. JD: I was a machinist mate. I was down in the engine room and boiler room down there. That's about it. I wasn't a water tender, boilerMinnesota tender. I worked on the engines. BF: You said you were a machinist? Minnesota JD: Well, they called it a machinist then, but we were marine engineers. We operated the engine rooms. We would maintain the turbines, the steam turbines, and the shafts and the shaft [unclear] and the generators, the power generators, and stuff like that.

BF: Was there any ofthat feeling in terms ofthe neighborhood feeling about you and your friends going off to the service? Were you together by that point?

JD: Oh, yes, yes.

8 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BF: So, that must have been a huge ...

JD: Yes, we had a great big party when I left. [laughter] Then, shortly thereafter, they all left, you know. They took my advice and they joined the Navy.

BF: Barbara, in terms of people who were left behind ...

BD: Well, I was still in high school. We had known each other about five, six years before we even got married and we've been married forty-eight years now. We're like brother and sister. [laughter] I've known him so long. I don't know, the time just seemed to just go by fast. I was in school and I worked and, then, my friend and I, we volunteered at Gillette Children's Hospital at nighttime. So, the time went by, you know. We always found something to do. And, periodically, he'd show up. He'd come home. The two years that he was gone was ... our wedding was planned.Exhibit When he come home, then we finished it up and got married in June. I don't know, when did you get home? December? January?

JD: [sigh] It was just a couple weeks before Christmas. I got outHouse early.

BD: But, see, I never had any uncles or my dad never was in the service. I had one uncle who was in the service and he come home pretty bad. It treated Openhim pretty bad. We'd see him periodically. Like the neighborhood, I never knew anybody who was in the service,Society so it really never affected me that much. When he went, it was just something that all theProject young kids did or had to do. I never had any brothers either. Society JD: Yes, there wasn't much choice in those days. History BD: No. So, the two years kind of went by. Historical

AS: Did you write letters Historicalback and forth?Oral BD: Oh, yes. Minnesota AS: Did you happen to save any of those letters?

BD: Uh, Minnesotano. [laughter] No, I don't think ... I saved my son's because he was also in the Navy and he was in the submarine service for almost twenty years. I saved some of his. Maybe I did save some of yours. I don't know. Maybe.

BF: I guess this is probably obvious, but were you worried about what was going to happen?

BD: Well, I knew nothing would ... He was on a troop ship. He would just take the troops over there and come back. He never was really in the fighting part of it.

9 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: It was more of a training mission at first. We went up to Greenland. Then, we took 1200 stevedores-they're Anny stevedores-up there and we hit some real rough weather. The ship was about 800-, 900-feet long, something like that, and we had 1200 aboard beside the crew, officers and crew. We had a crew of about 350 altogether, just the crew. It was really crowded when you had troops aboard. We were up there and I really felt sorry for those guys. They worked them. They worked them like slaves. Honest to god! they worked those poor guys twelve hours on, twelve hours off, seven days a week.

BF: What were they doing?

JD: Unloading ships, unloading equipment and supplies.

BF: They were building ports, too, or these were already ... ? Exhibit

JD: That was all done before we got there. The cargo ships would come up and they would unload the cargo ships. Some of them would be on the shore taking ... whatever they did with them once they got them. House

It was interesting though ... The one interesting part: they had the Eskimos up there. Now, we were up there before most anyone was up there. We were oneOpen of the first ships up there. These Eskimos, they couldn't understand. We had a hard time communicating with them because they don't know Society the language. We were informed we could not trade anythingProject with them. They would trade their spears and everything else that they would have, something they would need to survive the winter. So, we were forbidden to trade anything withSociety them, but we could give them things. But, they always wanted to give you something in return. One thing was... [chuckles] It was the advent of the skinless wiener. They were god-awful things.History [laughter] They were frozen and when they thawed out, they were gray. [laughter] We gave a box to theHistorical Eskimos. They were thawed out then. And, they looked at those things. They took their knives out and they would cut them and open them up. There was a Mountie there; he couldOral understand what they were saying. I said, "What are they talking about?" He says, Historical"What kind of any animal is this?" They opened it and there was no intestines in it. [laughter]

BF: That's a good question though.Minnesota

JD: It wasMinnesota a good question. There is no intestines in it. They didn't want to eat them at first, but once they took a bite of them, boy! they thought they were great.

BF: Now, Nellie has strong memories of when you carne back. I don't' know if you were on visits or. .. ?

JD: Oh, yes, I got a couple ofleaves when we were ~n there.

BF: She said you had parties in the basement?

10 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: Oh, yes.

BF: When was that?

JD: Oh, that was still in the old house [unclear].

BF: On leave or at the end?

JD: Oh, no, on leave. Yes, on leave. All of my buddies were still in the Navy at the time, most of them. Some were in the Army, just a few of them, and they were over in Korea. Even then, they didn't get out until about 1956 or so. In fact, most of them, in fact all of them that were in there, didn't get out until about 1956 because they were in for four years. Exhibit BF: So, then, who was at these parties if they were all gone?

JD: The parties were beforehand. House BF: Oh, the parties in the basement were before you guys went. .. ?

JD: Before I went in the Navy and shortly thereafter theyOpen all went in, so we had big parties down there between the sink and the stove we had down there and the winepress.Society Project BD: You never had any parties when you came home on leave because there wasn't anybody there. Society JD: There was nobody there then. History BD: Because if you did, I wasn't invited. [laughter]Historical

BF: [unclear] between-whatHistorical were Oralyou saying?-the sink and ... ?

JD: I mean it was an area about the size of this room. There was a boiler in there, a hot water heater, a ... what do they call it? A sidecar.Minnesota It was a heater that set alongside your hot water tan1e It had a copper coil around it and you would go down and you'd light it, open it up, and you'd go in there. God forbid if you forget to shut it off. You don't forget. Minnesota BD: You had that big cement thing down there that they did the grapes in.

JD: Oh, yes, the winepress was in there.

BD: There wasn't much room down there.

JD: That was off to the side, so actually the area we were in. .. You figure the coal bin in there, the big coal bin, that took a good piece of that room. The room was about this site. We had a coal bin that was about ten by ten in there. Then, just opposite the coal bin, we had the furnace and, then, we 11 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview had the sink and, then, we had a stove that we could cook on. That was down there. It was on the opposite side. There was a lot of things down there and, then, a big stanchion in the middle to support the ... [chuckles] We always washed the whole thing before the party.

AS: What would you do at the parties?

JD: Let's see. We drank some beer and we had some music, played the radio. We had a phonograph record down there.

??: Isn't there something like that we had [unclear] there?

JD: I forget what it was. Exhibit BF: Did you have lights?

JD: Oh, yes, we had electric lights down there. Oh, yes. House BF: The kids remember it as being a very dark place and scary.

JD: Oh, yes, there weren't too many lights down there, Openbut there was enough, yes. Then, we'd put a couple of table lamps in. The lights, you had to string an extensionSociety cord down to a table lamp and stuff like that. Yes, so it was an interesting time. It wasProject a fun time, too, I might add. BF: How did you two meet? Where did youSociety live, Barbara?

BD: I lived on the Upper East Side. [chuckles] HistoryHistorical JD: On Arcade Street. HistoricalOral BD: Forest [Street], where St. Casmir's Church is. I went there. We just lived one block from there on Cook [Avenue] and Forest.

BF: So, how did you two meet then?Minnesota

BD: Well,Minnesota I went to the same school, Johnson High School. He was a senior; I was a sophomore.

BF: Was it unusual to go outside your neighborhood [unclear] to hook up?

JD: To be honest with you, the folks didn't really care for it. [laughter] But, you know ...

BD: My folks never cared for you? Is that what you said?

JD: No, the folks.

12 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview BD: Oh, yes, I'm sure his sister didn't appreciate me because there were a lot ofItalian girls around there that she knew and she probably liked.

JD: She's quite a bit older than [unclear].

BD: I was an outsider, a stranger, coming in, you know. You could kind offeel it. .. very strongly. Then, he left in the service and ...

JD: Not as strong as your mother. [laughter] She wasn't happy at all.

BD: When he went in the service, I wasn't around there very much so. .. I still went to school when he left. That's how we met. We met in school. Exhibit JD: But we got along. The families got along real well. Once we got married, everything else was fine.

BD: Oh, yes, we never didn't get along but, you know, there's alwaysHouse that. ..

JD: Her mother would have much rather she married a nice [sounds like cass-el], Polish boy. Open BD: There wasn't any Polish boys around there. [laughter] Society Project BF: There weren't? Society JD: They were more like brothers. History BD: There were but, you know, they were like your Historicalbuddies next door. You played Kick the Can in the allies with them and everything. You never thought of liking them that way. HistoricalOral JD: All the Italian girls were the same thing down there. They were more like sisters, you know. We were all such a group. We grew up together, you know.

BD: Yes, you grew up from KindergartenMinnesota all the way up. [ unclear] I never thought ofliking him in that way. Pfft. Minnesota JD: It was strange, but that's the way it worked out.

BF: So, was that unusual? Did you have other friends who crossed the neighborhood?

JD: I can't think of anybody that married one of the Italian girls.

BD: Where did Pat come from?

JD: Pat Donofri? She's Irish. 13 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BD: I know she's Irish, but where did she come from?

JD: Hell, I don't know.

BD: Was she on Payne Avenue?

JD: No.

BD: Well, see. Then, one of his friends, Frank Donofri, married an Irish girl. I don't know where she lived.

BF: Are you saying you don't know many people who married Italians? TheExhibit boys ... You do not know too many who married Italians?

JD: Not a one of mine. House BD: No, and none of my friends that I. ..

JD: We were more like brothers and sisters to all of themOpen down there. We learned how to dance together and we had the same group. Nobody really got. .. I don'tSociety know, I didn't get close to any Italian girls down there. Besides, they weren't as good lookingProject as she was. [unclear] I guess they were. There were a couple that I. .. Society BD: [chuckles] Now that you think back. History JD: You didn't think of them that way, you know ...Historical romantically, I mean.

BF: Did you get married inHistorical Casmir [unclear]Oral Church? BD: Yes.

BF: What was your job after you Minnesotacame back from the service?

JD: Ohhh,Minnesota I was still at Brown & Bigelow and, then, I was going to business college at that time under the G.!. Bill. I did that for about two years, something like that. In the meantime, we were married, too, in the process.

BF: When did you get engaged?

BD: Actually, I was thinking about that the other day.

JD: It was just a foregone conclusion that we were going to get married.

14 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BD: [laughter] It was just a conclusion. We met and that was it. I really never had any boyfriends before I met him or after.

JD: Oh, I don't kriow about that. [chuckles]

BD: I don't know, one day, he gave me a ring and I thought, oh, well, okay. I don't even know ifhe ever asked me ifI wanted to marry him. I cannot think ... I cannot remember him asking me that.

JD: I did get down on my knees.

BF: When were you planning the wedding? While you were gone?

BD: Well, yes, because we were married in June. He came home in January,Exhibit but most of it was what we had ... You know, you had to go see the priest and everything and he knew he was Catholic and the priest, I was very good friends with, so it didn't matter then, but we just had to set a date at the time. Then, when he came home, we just kind of went around to all the things my mom and I had figured out. The florist was one oftheir family friends. EverybodyHouse had their wedding at Hazel Park Commercial Club on Seventh Street, so you had to get that right away because everybody had their wedding there. There wasn't as many halls as there are now. Open JD: A strange thing happened the month before we got married. WhenSociety we went to get flowers, we stopped at the hall with her father and we had a couple ofProject beers. Her father worked at the brewery. We had a couple ofbeers and we bought some jackpot tickets for twenty-five cents. That was it. So, I bought three and Otto bought three. BarbaraSociety said, "Why are you wasting your money on that for?" something like that. I can remember that. [chuckles] I can't remember what happened yesterday, but ... Anyway, I forgot all about it. You know,History you buy one of those things and you just forget it. So, it was a couple ofmonths before the wedding .. .IHistorical would say about a month before our wedding. I was over to her house and my sister calls up. She says, "Say, Jerry, some guy called from the Dayton's Bluff CommercialHistorical Club andOral said you won some kind of a motor up there." It was a 7'12 horsepower outboard motor. I mean, no way I could [unclear]. At that time, it was just a phenomenal amount ofmoney. It was pretty close to four hundred dollars for that motor, brand new. Nobody had motors in the neighborhood. I like to fish, you know, but we went out with the oars. That was about it. Geez, I had a motorMinnesota and all my buddies, we took them out. We'd fish a couple at a time. We'd go out. We had a good time. That was really something else. I hit the jackpot. Minnesota I had a [unclear] too, when I hit an anchor pool. That was as I was leaving that same year. When we came into the states, they had an anchor pool and you would pick a time out round the clock. I picked a time and this friend and I, we won $500 a piece at that time. That went a long ways for what we needed for the wedding and everything.

BF: Wow. Did you go from Bigelow to Hamm's?

JD: Uhhh, yes, yes, from Bigelow there to the Hamm's. I was working a split shift at the time while I was going to school, see? I had my classes in the morning and, then, I would [sigh] start at around 15 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview twelve or one o'clock and I would work till nine o'clock at night. Then, [unclear], You can't do that any longer." Supervisor says I can't do that any longer. I don't know what happened. [unclear] I asked Otto-this was in the summer-"Otto, do they need any help down there? Otto said, "Well, yes, they need somebody." "Well, I ought to go down there and work there for a while." Well, thirty-eight years later, I retired from the place. [chuckles]

BF: What were your jobs there?

JD: I was a brewer. God! I worked in the malting plant. I did seven years hard time in the malting plant. [laughter]

BF: Why do you say that? Exhibit JD: I got in trouble with one of the master brewers. [chuckles] Anyway, I told him where to go and I thought I was fired, but I wasn't. They put me in that place for seven years .. That was a bitch of a place to work. Excuse my language. It was really tough. House BF: Why, what did you do?

JD: Well, it was kind of a complicated operation. I workedOpen in the kilns, see? They germinate the barley. Excuse me, they soak it first of all for six days. Then, they put it in these compartments and Society they germinate it. Then, it goes into the kiln. After a weekProject of growing, it goes into the kiln for two days. If your job was in there, you'd spread it out in the upper kiln, but they'd never shut the fires off and there were oil fires burning oil. You'dSociety have to work in there. There were times in there your eyes would just bum out of your head. Oh! God! One time, I shut the leg off. That's the machine that carries up the malt. It was in sequence Historywith the green malt conveyor. It would come out one way ... Historical

[End of Tape 1, Side 1] HistoricalOral [Tape 1, Side 2]

JD: The one that went down belowMinnesota was still going and it just burned all the motors up and oh! god! it was a mess. But, I had shut it off and I couldn't breathe and this was really bad. This supervisor of mine cameMinnesota up screaming up there, "Who shut that off?" I said, "I did. I'll stay in here as long as you," and I grabbed him and I dragged him over the top of this thing into this kiln and we sat there. Ohhh! he was coughing and burning. He finally just crawled out and he walked out of the place and I was right behind him. I would have stayed in there till the world ended. [bangs hand on table] I mean, I was that determined that time. He went out there and I never heard another thing about it. That was [unclear].

BF: Good for you.

JD: I never heard another word about it. 16 Jeny and Barbara D'Aloia Interview BF: How did you get out ofthat job?

BD: The seven years was up.

BF: So, I guess you did get out [unclear].

[laughter]

JD: Oh, yes, I spent a lot of time over there.

BF: So, how did you get into it? That was because you had a fight with ... ? Exhibit JD: Oh, yes.

BF: What happened there? House JD: Well, ah, yes, there was quite a few things happened. Uhhh, I pretty near got fired one day. We had the grain terminaL.all the big shots, the executives and the whole works from the Grain Exchange here. They were on a grand tour of the breweryOpen and they happened to be in the malt house. [chuckles] Well, anyway, part of my job was unloading that kiln theSociety first thing in the morning. The rest of the time I'm moving grain up above into the soakers.Project I was on the fifth floor and they had a six-inch pipe [unclear] a little water from the basement and it would fill these tanks. Oh, god! they would hold 1250 bushels a piece with grainSociety and we'd fill them with water. Well, I got them started and I went down on break and, all of a sudden, it dawned on me that water was still on. All these guys were going up the steps and [unclear] Historysteps. This was in the wintertime and it was twenty­ below outside. I got on the man lift, the man lift goingHistorical up, and it wasn't going fast enough. "Oh, come on, get me up there." Ohhh, I got to about between the third and fourth floor and the tanks were over and these guys wereHistorical all walkingOral up the steps and it came down. Ohhh! geez! we about drowned them, all forty of these guys. There was a pile of them and they were drenched. Ohhh! geez! 1 thought, oh, god! my ass has had it. Excuse my language. [laughter] Ohhh! So, I went down there. Anyway, the next morning, I reported to work. "No sense of even changing clothes," I says. "I know I'm fired. This is it."Minnesota So, I had to go in there. I had to face the music, you know. Bill Figge, the president of the company, he chewed me out, up one side and down the other. 1 just got [unclear]. Minnesota You know, what can I say? It was my mistake. We worked till ten 0' clock that night just cleaning up that place, the whole group. It was a mess! But, anyway, he finally, after about twenty minutes of chewing me out-he used the nasty language-he told me, "Go I dam you." He didn't use that word, but. .. "Get back to work and don't let that ever happen again because you're gonna get fired!" and he tore out of the building. Whew! [laughter] 1 breathed a sigh of relief at that time. So, that was it. Years later, when he retired, he had a party. [unclear] twice. Another thing, he called me up one time. There was another story about that place. Anyway, we got to talking about that incident and he says, "You know, they were some of the lousiest guys you'd ever meet in your life. I'm glad you drowned them when you did. If it wasn't for that fact, I would have fired you for sure." Oh, god! 17 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview Another time, I was working in the final filter [final-filtration room]. [unclear] this story many times, but it was so funny. We had water pressure. It runs about seventy to eighty pounds and the beer pressure is about a hundred pounds per square inch when you're moving a lot of beer. Well, I'm moving beer and I'm shoving it over to the government cellars and the racking room and stuff like that and I happened to throw a valve. The water valve was open, so the beer was pushing the water out. In the office building, there's a salesman in there and he's stopping to see Bill Figge. Geez, [unclear] drinking fountain and beer was coming out of the drinking fountain and, "God! he says, "Bill, [unclear] idea!" [laughter] He says, "What?!" He says, "Yes, you've got beer in the drinking fountain. That's really great." Oh! he got on the phone [unclear] Oh, he cursed me out, up one side and down the other. "Shut that [unclear]." It was in the in the toilets. You'd flush it and they had a head on them about that high. [laughter] It took hours before that cleared out, you know. Anyway ... that was another case when I don't know why I didn't get fired. ExhibitBut, he had a sense of humor, see?

BF: But as a result, he kept you in that terrible job? House JD: No, this was after that, many, many years after that. It was always one thing or another. We had a big time, but that's neither here nor there. Open BF: Why did you stick it out there that long? Society Project JD: Well, I had a family and it was a pretty decent income at the time, so that more or less took care of it. I couldn't very well leave unless I couldSociety find something better. In the meantime, I started a photography business and thirty-five years later. .. I worked both places and I'm burning the candle at both ends. HistoryHistorical BF: You still work not at Hamm's? HistoricalOral BD: Not now. No, no. He's been retired eight years.

JD: At the time. Most of the business in the photography business was in the evenings, late afternoon or evening, so it was no problem.Minnesota I was working days down there and the evenings I spent doing the photography, you know, bookings and stuff like that. Minnesota BF: Were you eventually a master brewer or a brewer yourself?

JD: I was a brewer. The master brewers were the supervisors. That was just the title they gave them and that's about it.

AS: Was photography something you did freelance or were you working for a studio?

JD: No, it was freelance. I did it on my own. You see some of my work is hanging on the walls.

18 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BF: Yes, great.

JD: These are things that I've done. I'm going to have to change those.

BD: Yes.

JD: I have to go down and get a slide copier. I have tons of slides that I've taken and I want to [unclear] bigger ones and start using them around here.

BF: Was Hamm's unionized?

JD: Oh! definitely! That was one of the first union companies in the state. It was way back. In fact, that clothes tree that I've got, that was in the office of the original brewery workers.Exhibit It was a small, little cubbyhole for an office that was in. That was there and when they moved to bigger and better places, they had no use for that, so I got a hold of it and took it home and I used that in my studio when I had the studio down on the Shamrock Plaza. House BF: Were you involved in the union then?

JD: No, no. I was just a union member at the time. Open Society BF: I don't know much about that. What was the relationshipProject with the union and the management? JD: Well, it was always pretty good becauseSociety it was a small union. It was the Hamm's and the Schmidt Brewery that belonged to that and the soft drink workers. We had our own small union between the three companies. It was interesting.History It was a nice union. Everybody got along together. It was a small union. We negotiated our own contracts,Historical you know.

BF: Was there ever a strike?Historical Oral . JD: Oh, yes, we had two strikes. Yes, we had two strikes while I was there.

BF: When was that? Minnesota

JD: Oh, god,Minnesota one was back in the early 1960s. I think it was when Olympia was there, when they first took over, probably in the mid 1970s. I'm not real sure about the dates.

BF: What was the issue?

JD: Wages, generally.

BF: Was Olympia ... ?

19 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: Yes, that was during the Olympia... They were probably the best people we worked for. Olympia was great. Stroh's, on the other hand, I have nothing good to say about, except the fact that they kept it open as long as they could.

BF: Olympia was the best people you worked for?

JD: Yes. Hamm'sjust deserted us out there. Sold it. They sold it for, what was it, $100 million.

BD: They were pretty good people to work for though. You could have gotten fired quite a few times and you didn't. [laughter] So, you'd better say they were a good place to work.

JD: The only thing bad I had to say about them was when they left. Exhibit BD: Well, just when they left.

JD: They just, pfft, sold it and away they went and that was it. Third generation, that's all, the third generation of the Hamm's people, they took the money and ran. HouseThey never said, "Thank you," or "Go to hell," or nothing. That was bad.

BF: But there was still an awful lot of people workingOpen for them? Society JD: Oh, we had 1600 people working there at one time.Project When they left, we were putting out as much beer as we did at the heyday and we were doing it with less than 300. [pause] Yes, that's the whole operation: malt house, bottle house,Society brew house, the teamsters. BD: They had good benefits. It's not likeHistory some of those poor people now that have to pay everything. Historical

BF: So, along the way, if youHistorical went fromOral 1600 to 300, was there some strike [unclear]? JD: No, there was no strikes about that. It was just automation and automation took over big time. You couldn't fight it, you know. That was one of those things. Then, the Machinist's [Union] took over. We had the choice of going Minnesotabetween the machinists and electricians and several other unions that wanted ... We had to join a big union because the internationals claimed we should do it. I don't reallyMinnesota know why, but we had to join one of the bigger unions and it happened to be one of the best things that could have happened. At the time we got the Machinist's, they guaranteed all of us nineteen years into their pension plan. So, when I retired, I was ten years into the Machinist's. I had twenty-nine years of full pension from the Machinist's, so that was really great. It was great for all of us, for that matter, you know.

BF: Yes.

AS: Can you tell us a little bit about the time just after you were married when you were living in the house on Hopkins Street? Barbara, what were you doing? 20 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview BD: I was working at Brown & Bigelow and, then, after I had our first one, then I went back and, then, I got pregnant right away with the second one. Then, we moved out ofthere. In fact, I was on my way to the hospital having the second one and he had to come and show me the color of the house they stuccoed next to where his sister lives.

JD: It was right on the way to the hospital.

BD: Oh, it was not! The hospital is over there. We lived over here. I could have cared less what color that house was. [laughter] So, we didn't live there that long, but his ... Was that your auntthat lived upstairs?

JD: [sounds like Zia-ahz], yes. Exhibit

BD: There wasn't really anything ... I worked and, then, I didn't work anymore after I had the second one. House AS: So, who watched your first child when you went back to work?

BD: [sigh] His sister because they lived in that double Openhouse, you know. I'd just let him sleep. She could hear him. The bedroom was connected to her kitchen ...just theSociety wall there, and she could hear him. And, it was only about. . .it wasn't too long that sheProject took care of him. BF: What's your son's name? Society

BD: Mark ... Mark, Mike, Daniel, Thomas, Katherine, Caroline, and Ann Marie. HistoryHistorical AS: Four boys and three girls in that order? HistoricalOral BD: No, we had two boys and girl and, then, two boys and, then, two girls. That was seven and, then, we've got seven grandsons and ...

JD: When my fourth son was born.Minnesota .. Katherine was right in the middle. I can still remember that she came up to the delivery room and she was crying her eyes out. Kathy said, "All he'll want to do is play withMinnesota trucks." Now, we've got four boys and the only girl.

BD: How could I have four boys and the only girl? She was the third one.

JD: She was the third one, yes. I mean it was four boys and the girl. She was [unclear] is what I meant.

BD: Oh, well, yes. So we've got fourteen grandkids and seven are boys and seven are girls. [chuckles]

21 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BF: What did you do at Brown & Bigelow?

BD: I was in the bookkeeping department. I worked on a machine sending out statements. I liked that job a lot, but. .. but, I had work to do at home.

BF: Yes. You were busy.

BD: Yes, yes. We had five in six years, so it was ... Then the last two came, what, nine years later.

BF: What prompted you to move out of Hopkins Street?

BD: We had one bedroom when I was on the second child. Exhibit JD: We had only one bedroom [unclear] two boys. It was a beautiful house. It really was a nice house. I'd hate to see what it looks now .. J mean, you know, from what it w.as.

BD: They had a very little living room, which we made a living Houseroom-it probably wasn't a living room to begin with-and a huge dining room. The kitchen was large and the bedroom was really itsy bitsy. So, you couldn't really fit two cribs in there and a bed and everything else you needed. It was areallydifferent ... I'm sure when they made it, roomsOpen were for other purposes, but we ... There wasn't a bigger room to make a bedroom out of unless you wanted itSociety right in the middle ofthe house, you know. We needed more room. Then, his aunt came toProject live with us because Mickey had filled up all her rooms. Then, at that time, we only had two. Then, his aunt came to live with us. Well, then, it wasn't long before we had Kathy and, then,Society we had Tom and Dan, so we had five in one room because [sounds like Zia-ahz] took up one room and we took up one room. We only had three bedrooms. So, then, we started building thisHistory house. Well, then, she passed away. Then, when we moved in this house [sigh], we still didn't have enoughHistorical room.

JD: We put this addition on.Historical It was Oralfour bedrooms. BD: No, we put this addition on when most of them were gone. We built bedrooms in the basement for the two older boys. Minnesota JD: Yes. Tommy's still here. Minnesota BD: Now, I've got a lot of room.

BF: You were living on Hopkins also when Aunt Rose was living upstairs?

BD: Yes, yes.

JD: Yes.

22 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BF: So, at that time when you were all in the house and all in the same family was there a lot of moving in and out across the ... ?

JD: Oh, yes. There was no problem at all. They had a big porch in the front. Yes, it was just a matter of walking around the porch. You wouldn't have to walk outside or anything to get into the house. We just popped from one door to the other. We had separate doors and everything, you know.

BD: Like I say, we were only there a year, year and a half when we moved.

JD: Yes, my sister really felt bad. She didn't want to move out there. We had to. She had to, too.

BD: Well, she didn't have to move. Exhibit

JD: Well, she had the five children and they only had two bedrooms up there.

BD: Well ... She could have moved in our side. [laughter] House

JD: One bedroom? Open BD: No, not move, but I mean put a couple of kids on the other side.Society I'm sure she's glad she moved now though the way it. .. I don't want to move from here Projecteither. We've been here forty years. Then, when we move, we'll feel the same way, you know-if we ever move. Society JD: Yes, we're adjacent to this beautiful park [Battle Creek Regional Park] back here. I walk through there. You're not familiar with this area? HistoryHistorical BF: A little bit, yes. HistoricalOral JD: You should take an afternoon off and take a walk through there. There's actually about five miles of ski trails back there. I don't know, they claim that. I walk back there. It takes me ... [unclear] this morning and spent a whole hour. I just went to the end of the park, came back. I doubled back and came back this way.Minnesota It took me an hour and that's just one little trail.

BF: Yes,Minnesota yes. When you left Hopkins, did you have any of that same feeling of. : . ?

JD: Oh, no, I was excited about moving out of there. Yes.

BD: Not me. I wasn't there long enough to ...

JD: It didn't matter.

BD: Matter, yes. [unclear] when we moved out ofthe other house on Hazel? How long were we there? [Nineteen] forty-eight. .. 23 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: [sigh] Yes.

BD: Seven? Six, seven years?

JD: In 1962, we moved in here. So, seven years or so.

BD: This house I got attached to though.

BF: Why were people moving to Hazel Park? Is that the Hazel Park area that you moved to? Is that what you call it?

JD: Yes. Exhibit

BD: On Hazel Street, next to Mickey? I don't know why we moved there .. 1 actually don't even know why we moved next door together. I guess there was two lots there and they were going together and the houses we had fit on them, but we weren't thereHouse that long either. I think after [sounds like Zia-abz] died, then we still didn't have enough room. That's why we started building this one, because then we had five kids with three bedrooms. Open JD: Oh, yes. Society Project BD: I don't know ifit was so much ... There wasn't very many new houses getting built up there. It was just two lots that were side by side thatSociety were for sale. JD: The area we live in here now, they hadHistory the workhouse farm up the street, where the school [Battle Creek Elementary School] is, down on the playground.Historical We were the third house.

BD: Third house here in thisHistorical whole Oralneighborhood. Nobody else here. JD: We had dirt roads. In 1965, we had a big snow. It was a terrible snow we had that year and we had an awful warm spring. All of a sudden, after about three days of this really nice hot weather, all the snow melted at one time, washedMinnesota our street out here. The whole thing went down the Upper Afton Road. That sewer sitting out in front was ten feet underground and it washed away that whole thing. [laughter]Minnesota Yes, it was interesting.

BF: I just have a couple more questions.

JD: Yes, sure.

BF: One thing ... We picked up various things that we're trying to figure out in our own minds. We heard about a cistern in the kitchen.

JD: Oh, yes, they had a cistern in the bottom of that house. 24 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview BF: In the basement?

JD: Yes, in the basement. Oh, it was a beautiful. Oh, I mean, it wasn't beautiful; it was a cistern. But, they had a ceiling in it. It was all arched brick and they plastered the whole inside of it. We used it for a wine cellar. We had to knock that wall out and we even took the ceiling out because it wasn't necessary. We never used it as a cistern. It was there when ... All the drains were connected to it. Then, they had an overflow that would connect into the sewer system. I didn't know just where that was. But, I can remember it. There was like a half door. It was pretty good size. I would say it was probably a ten by twelve foot room. They had this ledge. You could walk in and you could look over the top and it was just all bricked in and plastered. We tore that out and made a wine ... Well, my father did that and [unclear]. I had nothing to do with that. They made that into a little wine cellar. . Exhibit

BD: Does anybody know how old that house is?

JD: I think it was built in the 1860s. House

BF: It was 1880. Open JD: Eighteen eighties? Society Project BD: Eighteen eighty? Wow. Society JD: I thought it was the 1860s. History BF: I don't know how this works. What would theHistorical cistern ... ? They had running water, right?

JD: Well, no, not really. TheyHistorical had aOral well. BF: They had a well?

JD: Yes. What they would do is theMinnesota cistern would come down ... I don't know ifthey had water in there. At that time, in 1880, it was a little different. But, the water would come down from all the drains. AllMinnesota the rain gutters would feed the cistern. They had sewer, so they must have had water. I think they used that for washing maybe. We had water when we moved in there. As far as I know, we had water and electricity.

BF: Then, how about Joe, the iceman. You mentioned him, but what are your memories of him?

JD: He was nice Fatty Joe. He was a fat little guy. [chuckles] He wasn't too tall, but he was big. He was quite a guy. He had a two-wheel wagon, big wheels, and he would roll it up to the Harnm Brewing Company. He would pick up two SOO-pound blocks of ice and he would roll them down. I don't know how often he did that, but it might have been a couple times a week, because everybody 25 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview would buy ice from him. He would chisel off, you know, forty, fifty pounds, whatever you wanted. He would charge you so much a pound.

BF: And he kept it in his ... ?

JD: In the icehouse. [unclear]. He had these little wagons. I used to go up there to pick up ice and carry it home in a wagon [unclear], two wheels. They were made out of just about anything. Sometimes, they were Seven-Up boxes. They had wooden boxes for the Seven-Up. He would use just a short box. Hamm's were too high. They were wooden boxes, but they were high and it was hard to get the ice out of them. So, the little Seven-Up boxes, they were maybe five inches high and he'd put an axel with a couple wheels on and a handle so you could drag it. Then, you brought it back after you went home with the ice. Exhibit BF: Why did Hamm's have the ice?

JD: Because they had the icemaker. House BF: They had the icemaker?

JD: Oh, yes, they'd make 500-pound blocks of ice. TheyOpen would make that ice so they could ice their boxcar. Yes, regular ice, but they had the lake ice ... Society Project BF: Why did the boxcars need to be refrigerated? Society JD: Because the keg beer had to be refrigerated because that was unpasteurized. It had to be kept cold, keg beer. Bottled beer, it didn't make anyHistory difference because that was pasteurized. So, it was interesting. Historical

BF: So, when did you get Historicala refrigerator?Oral JD: [pause] You'd have to check with my sister on that, but I think it was probably in 1940, 1941.

BF: Was that a big deal? Minnesota

JD: Oh! Minnesotayes! BD: [chuckles]

JD: No more icebox, and the milk was always ice cold, you know. Oh, it was nice. And, then, we had ice. [laughter] Those ice trays. Normally, you had to chop off a piece of ice and you'd never know what size it would come out.

26 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview BD: You had a refrigerator when... His mother and dad were passed when I met him and I was fifteen when I met him. His parents were already .. .1 think, right? They were already gone weren't they when I met. .. ?

[End of Tape 1, Side 2]

[Tape 2, Side 1]

BF: ... say that again?

JD: I was in the in-house photographer for the brewery. I just mention this because I've got a bunch of slides downstairs, some of the slides that I had taken that I would like to probably donate to the Historical Society. Exhibit

BF: How wonderful.

JD: I'm talking hundreds of them. I have done many slide presentations.House What I've got down here, I don't think it's complete. I photographed everyone on the job at that brewery at one time-I'm not sure they're all in there-and some of the equipment in the different places. Open BF: Oh, how great. We'd love to see that. Society Project BD: It will be a while though if you have to start making photographs of all the slides. Wow. Society BF: We can do that. You don't need to. We can make dups [duplicates]. History JD: Dup slides? Historical

BD: Dup pictures? HistoricalOral BF: We can either scan the slides digitally or we could, depending on ... eventually we could have prints. You don't need to do that. Minnesota JD: No, I want to make ... I've [unclear] picking up a slide copier and I'm going to make negatives out of someMinnesota of those so that I can print them up in black and white or color, depending on how I feel.

BF: We could do some of that for you [unclear].

JD: Well, I don't know which ones I want. On that one, I just want a few out ofthat. I've got slides that I want to copy myself that I shot years ago.

BF: But I mean if there's anything you want to keep, we could duplicate if you just want to lend us something. That would be no problem.

27 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: We'll get together. I'll go down and make sure I've got them alL ..

BF: Okay. Maybe that's another [unclear].

BD: Winter is coming. He won't have too much to do. [laughter] Hibernate.

JD: I puttogether a slide show. I don't know whatever happened to it.

BD: I says winter's coming. You can hibernate in the basement with your pictures.

BF: Yes.

JD: A slide presentation I put on at the St. Paul Auditorium, I shot them allExhibit for that and that one, somehow, got ... I don't know whatever happened to it.

BD: You don't have that. House JD: The reason I have these down here ... After the brewery was sold, I had to go down there to pick up amug ... Open BD: They had a mug with your name on it. Society Project JD: ... with my name on it from when I retired, see? Well, I had no idea. It was just there. So, I went down there and I happened to run acrossSociety one of the assistant brew masters and I said, "You know, I've been looking for these slides that I did, all these slides that I've had over the years. I wonder whatever happened to them, you know."History He said, "Well, there's a pile of them up there in the office. Everything is out of there. There's one folioHistorical with all these slides in." I said, "Geez, that would be great." Yes, go up, take them. I don't know what happened to the rest of them." I don't either. And, I literally shotHistorical thousandsOral ofthem. BD: Somebody probably threw them away. They couldn't have cared less, you know.

JD: I know all the Hamm's commercials,Minnesota the Hamm's bear commercials?

BF: Yes.Minnesota

JD: I don't know if you remember those or not?

BF: [unclear]

JD: [unclear] room it was years. [sigh] After I saw them, "Oh, my god!" They had them in the hottest place they could possibly put those, reel after reel after reel of these commercials. Every one of them that they made was in this room. I pulled them out one at a time and I looked. They were all

28 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview faded out. They just burned them out, every last one of them, box after box of those commercials. Uhhh. It just burned me up when I saw that.

BF: Yes. That kind of thing is painful [unclear].

JD: Oh, that was painful, yes.

BD: Oh, yes.

JD: I did make out one thing though. There was a box of 16-millimeter. .. It was all 16-millimeter film. There was a box of unexposed film with the mailers to Kodak. [laughter] So, anyway, I got a hold of one of the directors and I caught hold of her and I called Kodak and I told her, "I've got a bunch of these unexposed film that have been laying around here, way outdated."Exhibit It was twenty years old at the time. "I know it's absolutely no good, but I'd like to claim the mailers." "Oh," she said, "Fine. Ship it to us and we'll send it back to you." So, I shot slide film for a long time on those pre-paid mailers. That's what I was interested in. House BF: Okay. [chuckles] That's great.

Do you know about your father, how he and the people Openof his generation from Italy ... How did they get started working on the railroad? Do you know? Society Project JD: Oh, well, my father's godfather was Frank: Yarusso and he came here in 1898, I believe it was. My father was just a young man, a young Societyboy I suppose, in 1900, right around 1900. He sent him over there [here]. He sent money for him to come over and he had ajob on the railroad. So when my dad came over here, he went to work on theHistory railroad right off the bat. I couldn't tell you ifit was 1900, but it was somewhere around there, you know.Historical Frank: Yarusso was one of the first Italians to migrate to St. Paul. HistoricalOral BD: What other places would they work besides opening their own businesses? The railroad. What else was there?

JD: Well, the railroad ... that's the Minnesotaway Frank ... He started out. ..

BD: No. MinnesotaWell, that's what I mean. When these immigrants came here, what other work was there for them to do besides opening their own businesses, [unelear] work? Was there any other companies for them to work ... ?

JD: The railroad was the big thing in those days. They were looking for people to work on the railroads because they were expanding and expanding and expanding. The Chinese took over the West Coast coming this way and the Europeans worked on the railroad going that way. Then, of course, you had the iron mines up in Minnesota, coalmines up there in Montana.

BD: So, it was either work for the railroad or opening your own business. 29 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview JD: Well, if you had the money, you could open your own business.

BD: You wonder what else they would do.

JD: Joe Damiani opened his own business. I don't know how he started ... withjust a few bucks.

BD: Yes, well, that's the way ...

JD: He ended up one of the wealthiest men in the state.

BF: Do you remember the night that Filimino was killed? Exhibit JD: Oh, yes, Filimino, yes, yes. That was Thanksgiving. We had a storm on Thanksgiving and he went out to clean switches on the railroad. It was just right under the Seventh Street Bridge. A freight came by, zapped by, and hit him. He was doing it in a blinding snowstorm. He didn't see the train coming or whatever. He didn't get killed right away. He diedHouse a week later. Yes.

BF: So, did you ever consider the railroad? Open JD: I did work there one year, one winter. That was a fun time. The first year I worked at the Society brewery, I was laid off because it was seasonal work at thatProject time. And, Russell says, "Hey, do you want a job down at the railroad?" I said, "Yes, Russell," ... Frascone. So, I went to work. I was laid offlike in late August, early September. Then,Society I worked the whole winter down there. That was a fun time working on the railroad. It was different, you know. History BF: When did the railroad start to close up? Historical

JD: It was a gradual thing. I would Oralsay that they started going downhill in the early 1960s. They reached their peak in probablyHistorical [unclear] and, then, the airlines were starting to take over big time. With the advent ofthe jets, travel cross-country was instead ofhours ... Like when I flew back from Norfolk, Virginia, to here, that was an eight and a half-, nine-hour flight, see? Now, they do it in less than two hours. [chuckles] As soonMinnesota as the jet engines came in, then that was starting to decline.

BD: AreMinnesota you doing a history on other houses in that neighborhood or other families? BF: No, we're using this one as kind of a ... Well, your own story ... You can tell us about brewing and railroads ...

JD: Yes, it's all in the neighborhood.

BF: ... and the war and home life. It's amazing how much is packed in one house and that's kind of what we're interested in.

30 Jeny and Barbara D' Aloia Interview. JD: Yes. It was a good time. It was a fun time. We've got a lot of things now we never had then, you know. Take a look, everything from televisions ...

BF: Weren't you very sick in that house with your appendix or what was that?

BD: Oh, that was right after I had our first one. He was maybe one, two months old when he got really sick. He thought he just had indigestion and took some pills and, then, I called the doctor. He said, "Don't let him take antacid," and he did.

JD: I [unclear].

BD: He says, "I feel good." He said, "Ifhe feels good, get him in the hospital," and his appendix broke. He was in there for a long time, because all that poison went in his system.Exhibit

JD: That was a close call.

BD: He's a very stubborn one. "I don't have to go. I feel good."House

JD: I feel good. What do I want to go to the hospital for? Open BD: Same thing with his heart, when he had his heart problem. I calledSociety the nurse. She said, "You call an ambulance." "I ain't going in an ambulance. ProjectI ain't gonna be [speaks in gibberish). [laughter] Society JD: I never had a heart attack, no. History BD: No. Yes, yes. Historical

JD: No, I didn't have a heartHistorical attack. Oral BD: So, I had to drive him there. I'm yelling and it's a rainstorm, five o'clock at night, going on [Freeway] 94 to the hospital, you know,Minnesota trying to get through all that traffic. Uffshhh! JD: Then, I get to the hospital and one of my distant cousins was a resident physician there and he commencedMinnesota to chew me up one side and down the other. [laughter] Oh, yes, I wasn't feeling too good anyway. I didn't need that at the time.

BF: No, that's not what you wanted.

JD: A good friend of mine in Minneapolis, same time, same day, had the same thing.

BD: And he didn't make it.

JD: He didn't make it. 31 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview BD: And, his wife was mad at him.

JD: He was driving and got tied up in traffic and that was the end of that.

BD: He is, he's stubborn when it comes to his health, you know.

JD: They were going to do an angioplasty, going to try that out first. After they carne out, they said, "We're going to have to operate." I said, "What other recourse do I have?" He said, "Well, in two, maybe three weeks, you're going to have a massive heart attack." I said, "Let's go for it." That's about it, you know. [laughter]

BF: Well, thank you so much. Exhibit

JD: Yes.

BF: Maybe I'll call you again and talk to you about the slides. House

JD: About the slides, yes. Open BF: Do you have family photos, too? Society Project JD: Oh, I have tons of family photos. Society BD: Oh, my god! [chuckles] History BF: Maybe, if you don't mind, we would love to seeHistorical them. That would be so great. Did you do video ... movie stuff, too, or not? HistoricalOral JD: No, no, I never got into video or movie. Oh, I did have the video camera.

BD: Oh, we did, but... Minnesota JD: I was so wrapped up in still photography. Minnesota BD: It was one of the first ones that came out and it was huge and it was heavy to carry around.

JD: Oh, yes. Oh, god! that was a back breaker.

BF: So, you don't have the ... ?

JD: No, I used it mostly for the business. I had a video crew that went out and did it. They weren't very good at the time, but it was early, in the early part.

32 Jerry and Barbara D' Aloia Interview AS: It's much different now.

JD: Yes, quite a bit different.

AS: I have these permission forms [unclear]. I think you may have filled these out [unclear]. But, it's essentially the same form for each of you.

JD: It's a release.

AS: Yes. Just sign right here. It's just allowing us to use what we've recorded here [unclear].

JD: Okay. Exhibit BD: What did I say? I don't want anybody to know. [laughter]

AS: There is a place if you're serious about that [unclear]. House BD: No.

AS: I can print the full name and all of that if you justOpen sign it on the first. .. Society JD: All right. Project [End of Tape 2, Side 1] Society

[End of the Interview] HistoryHistorical

HistoricalOral

Minnesota

Minnesota

33 Jerry and Barbara D'Aloia Interview