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22 C7.40 - 112 - NTLOKOA violence. What forms of violence did you previously accept you could use to achieve political change? — As I stated before every form of violence. The ultimate, any form of violence you were prepared to use? — That will bring about change, at the point in time I'd agree with that entirely. And that changed when? — That changed when I started, I was banned and I started consulting with Sister Bernard who showed me the way that violence can contaminate people(lO) and actually after you had gained what you wanted to gain you are actually already a violent person. There is no way tna>. Lhe change that you have achieved is going to change you, you still remain a violent person, and the possibility that you continue as a violent person is always there. So all this violence, which I will later' put to you in detail which we read about in newspapers, preventing people s hopping at certain places, physically, stoning, creating contusion, burning beer halls, burning buses, burning shops, killing Councillors, do you all include that? — In (20) violence? In your concept? — Yes I include all those as violence. Now what did Sister Bernard say to you which made you change your mind? — Well this happened over a long period of time, it didn’t happen overnight. While we were actually always at loggerheads because I had my particular position that I was pushing and she was pushing this non-violent and peaceable position, that at the time I did not agree with, but I think what really impressed me then was this question of being contaminated by violence because I was (30) saying/ 23 C7.41 - 113 - NTLOKOA saying that in order to bring about the better society you must do everything possible to achieve that, and then she say yes, but if you are going to do the wrong thing, like for instance to use violence to bring about that better society, then that is in itself a violent society against your people. The possibility is there that after you have gained what you want, you are going to remain a violent person and you are going to use this violence over the very same people you are trying to fight for. Why? — Because you have become a violent person. (10) But your violence is not related to that which you achieve? — It is obviously... You get violent to achieve something, once you've achieved it why do you then have to still be violent? — Because violence is not something that you acquire and can discard. Why not, you did?--No I didn't acquire violence, I said I believed and maybe I used it once, but if you’ use it over a long period of time, particularly bloodshed.. You used it over a long period of time, you used it (20) from 1978 to 1980? -- Bloodshed? Yes? -- No I've never killed anybody. You caused violence, you caused damage? — I only stoned a bus, I didn't kill anybody, but if you start killing people then you become a murderer and it starts, I mean the blood that drops would also affect your mind. Before 19 ... When did you forsake violence? — Forsake violence, I think almost round about 1982, 1981, that's when I realised that there are better methods. But when did you come into the influence of Sister (30) Bernard/ 24 C7.43 - 114 - NTLOKOA Bernard? — I said she taught me in Standard 1 and then I went to other classes and I started working for the Church. I really started in a sense coming into contact with her where we had discussions after I was banned. I understood from your evidence in chief that that was round about 1980 some time? — Yes, that was when I was banned. Yes and was it round about 1980 that you..? — I was banned at the end of 1979. Yes and when did you ocme out? -- I was released (10) and banned/ under house arrest in 1971 November, 1979, so the rest of the year I was involved in a different case in Bethal, I was involved in another case. The case in Bethal, when was that? — This was 1979 November, and.. Not 1978? -- No not 1978, I only appeared in Court in 1979. Now when did you then come into the influence of Sister Bernard? — 1979, 1980, 1981 and so on. Yes how long did this process last, when did you (20) more or less say now you've had this metamorphosis, you're now forsaking violence? It still continues because we al ways review, we always talk about what we are doing and we always reflect on what is happening. But Mr Ntlokoa at some stage there must be a couple- point, at some stage there must be the period where you now agree that you have forsaken violence, when did that happen? -- I said 1983. How do you know that? -- I think that was when I started studying, being active in community organisation, (30) and/ 25 C7.46 - 115 - NTLOKOA and this became quite clear to me that one can use non violent and peaceful means to effect change, that's when I realised that it does work. Can you give us some kind of a month during 1983? -- No I'm not sure, I can't say a month, but I say this type of thing doesn't have an overnight as if it's a revelation. It was a process that I had come to eventually accept. Now I want to put it to you that in fact it is such a remarkable thing that it does in fact have a period, have a date when you can now say to yourself, I've now changed (10) my view on something, violence, and now I do not advocate it any more? — Okay I do not remember the specific day or date, I didn't write it anywhere or note it anywhere so it happened sometime but I don't remember when. Early in 1983, middle of 1983, late in 1983? — Round about middle of 1983. So from 1979 until 1983 you had contact, this kind of konctact you are referring to? — Yes. With Sister Bernard, but the revelation only came in 1983? -- Yes. (20) Now I want to come back to your statement about violence permeates you. I take it that did not happen with you, because you were violent, you believed in violence, you for sake it and you are now not permeated with the violence? - — Yes, that is correct. I put it to you earlier, why can't that happen to anybody? -- I said the possibility is there, that was my original statement, the possibility is there that after you have achieved what you had, you would still remain violent, I never said you were going to be permeated by violence (30) irrespective/ 26 C7.49 - 116 - NTLOKOA irrespective of what, there is a possibility that other people can change. So the reason why you forsook violence was this possi bility of being permeated by it? — Yes, exactly. But hopefully and thankfully that hasn't happened to you? — Yes. Do you now today believe in no forms of violence to achieve political change? -- Yes I do. Excuse me? -- I do believe in that there, in no forms, I believe in no forms of violence. (10) Yes, what I'm putting to you is you believe today that one mustn't apply any form of violence to get political change? -- That is correct. And is that Sister Bernard’s view? -- Yes. And how long has she held that view? — Always. As far as I've known her. Now up till about 1983 when you had this change did you achieve anything by using the violence which you advocated? — I stated before I only used violence once, that is when I stoned a bus in 1976 when the uprisings were at their (20) height, that is the only time that I used biolence. To say that to believe that violence can bring about change does not mean automatically you are going to be involved in violence. Myself personally I only was involved in a violent situation once, and from there I still believed that it could be used but I was not involved in further acts of violence against anything, against any property or against anybody. The guestion to you was not how many acts of violence you were involved in, my guestion to you was up to 1983 (30) the/ 27 C7.50 - 117 - NTLOKOA the violence that you advocated, that you spoke about..? - -- That I believed, not advocated. Yes that you believed in, that you sprouted, that you told people that you believed in? — No I never said..(Mr Browde intervenes) MR BROWDE: My Lord he never said he advocated..(Court in tervenes ) COURT: I think Mr Ntlokoa answered the question. MR BURMAN: Up to 1983 did you advocate the use of violence? J — No I didn’t advocate the use of violence. (10) You didn't write in documents that you needed violence to get political change? — I answered to allegations that were made in a letter to me about violence, and because it was written to me I had to respond to the very same thing, so I replied to letters that actually challenged me oh the question of violence where, but I didn't for instance deli berately write down a document that advocated violence, but where it was asked to me what is your views, I put my views- across.