Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMITTEE

on PUBLIC UTILITIES and NATURAL RESOURCES

42 Elizabeth II

Chairperson Mr. Marcel Laurendeau Constituency of St. Norbert

VOL. XLII No. 13 • 7 p.m., WEDNESDAY, JULY 21, 1993

ISSN 0713-9454 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETI, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River He ights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Ho n. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Mi nnedosa PC GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Liberal HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant Rossmere Vacant Rupertsland Vacant The Maples 359

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES

Wednesday, July 21,1993

TIME-7p.m. John Jacobson, Private Citizen LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Diane Cox, on behalf of Duncan Stewart CHAIRPERSON - Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Gord Pazerniuk, Private Citizen Norbert) Leonard Lewandoski, Private Citizens ATTENDANCE -10- QUORUM- 6 Hendrik He rfst, The Defenders of Nopiming Members of the Committee present: Joseph Kelly, Private Citizen Hon. Messrs. Ducharm e, Enns, Praznik, Jean-Philippe Sourisseau, Private Citizen Stefanson MATTERSUNDER DISCUSSION: Mr. Ashton, Mrs. Carstairs, Mrs. Dacquay, Bill 41 -The Provincial Parks and Consequential Messrs. Laurendeau, Penner, Ms. Wowchuk Amendments Act APPEARING: *** Jerry Storie, MLA for Flin Flon Marianne Cerilli, MLA for Radisson Mr. Chairperson: I would like to ask the WITNESSES: committee's advice on something. I have a number of presenters-there are three or four of them-one Walter Kucharczyk, Private Citizen who has to be out of town on family business and it Walter Burdeny, Private Citizen is urgent. He is going to be leaving at nine o'clock. Glen Pinnell, Abitibi-Price The other ones, I would rather not get into their personal reasons why they have to be heard but Vincent Keenan, Private Citizen there are three others who would like to have been Kelly Sharpe, Private Citizen heard as well. I am wondering if it is the will of the Jack Coote, Private Citizen committee that we might hear from these four presenters. Sharon Coote, Private Citizen Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I do not think Gordon Hanson, Private Citizen there is any problem. In fact, we have been Henry Ostrowski, Mayor, Village of Powerview accommodating people from out of town, but Dave Nickarz, Private Citizen actually one of the other traditions is we also do Nick Carter, Private Citizen accommodate people who have specific circumstances as to why they cannot come back Joe Melnick, Private Citizen another time. I would agree to it. Alison Elliott, Private Citizen Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): My only Paul Nagerl, on behalf of D. James Robertson, question is, are they out-of�town people or are Falconbridge Limited there still people from out of town here this evening Bruce Samson, Whiteshell District Association who would be moved up the list as well? Inc. Mr. Chairperson: There are still some out-of-town William Pruitt,Priv ate Citizen presenters as well. Christine Singh, Coalition to Save the Elms At this time, would the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources please come Margaret Pilloud, Private Citizen to order. When the committee last sat, it was Don Sullivan, Choices hearing public presentations on Bill 41 , The 360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

Provincial Parks and Consequential Amendments I would like to now call on Walter Kucharczyk. Act. The committee tonight will continue hearing Mr. Walter Kucharczyk (Private Citizen): My public presentations. apologies to cause you difficulties with that last Before I get underway, I would like to inform the name. Walter is good enough. committee members that the committee has received additional written submissions and that Mr. Chairperson: Walter is good enough. these have been distributed to the committee Mr. Kucharczyk: Please. (interjection] You are a members with the updated lists of the written real politician. You know how to interpret, hey. submissions. At this time, before me is an updated list of persons names registered to speak on Bill 41 . Mr. Chairperson: Carry on. Do you have a written For the committee's benefit, a copy of the list has presentation, Walter? been distributed to each member. Mr. Kucharczyk: No, Mr. Chairperson, I will be very brief. I will not use 20 minutes. I want to say to Point of Order you first of all that my medical condition calls for lots to be desired. In other words, I am prettysick under Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Just a medication. However, I could not help but get off point of order, Mr. Chairperson, if I may. my chest something that I have been aware of I was just in the back of the room , and I do not probably before some of you here were born. know if it is the sound system, the nature of the Your Bill 41 is similar to the mining bill in the sound system or perhaps the way we are using our second part you just recently completed, Bill 3. The microphones, but it is virtually im possible to hear issue that you have in Bill 41 to my knowledge what is going on at the committee from the back of existed but no action had been taken by the D.L. the room . Perhaps if we could make sure we are Campbell administration-do not give me a dirty closer to our microphones, et cetera, so that the look-subsequently, Mr. Roblin at the time had presenters are able to hear our comments. inherited, I believe, the Department of Natural Mr. Chairperson : Thank you, Mr. Praznik. Resources jointly with the Department ofMines.

*** There is an honourable minister classified as endangered species and has been over 25 years in Mr. Ashton: Just while we are dealing with that position. He can sayif I am right or wrong. Most preliminary matters, I am just wondering if wehave of the time I am wrong according to my enemies, of the same understanding as yesterday in terms of course. timing of the committee. I would suggest that we, Now the matter was raised at the time of Mr. once again, assess where we are at eleven o'clock Roblin's administration by Honourable Mr. Gurney and proceed as we did last night. It seemed to work Evans, may he rest in peace, but not with his ideas. quite well. He was good. One obstacle was their tying in the Mr. Chairperson: Is that agreed with the private lands in designated areas of the parks with committee then? Agreed. some daydreamers at the time to have a Torrens If there is anyone else in the audience who is not title to the property the way Ontario had. So the registered to speak to Bill 41 and would like to do brains in the department reviewed, to my so, please let the staffat the back of the room know knowledge, what would be a benefit of the title or and they will add your name to the Zst. rather to be administered by the Crown. More or less, as I recal l, the conclusion was, Mr. As a reminder for the committee members and Chairperson, that if the Torrens title practice would members of the public, the committee has agreed be implemented, then you would have a Hungarian at previous meetings to hear from out-of-town goulash that you never would separate. It would be presenters first. If there is anyone today to speak to just a mess. Bill 41 from out of town, could they inform the Clerk and we will call those names right after we have So the powers to be decided at the time, just let it dealt with the four special circumstances that have stay for awhile. Besides, there was no recession been brought to our attention as agreed to by the then, and besides, the Crown lease was committee. somewhere around $30 a year where the cottages July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 361

were. Today, of course, it is slightly over $600. I am their opinion. As far as the retroactivity is not beefing, the service improved. concerned, you, sir, will not be inventing the wheel. When I heard about the objections subsequently The Right Honourable Mr. Edward Schreyer, I do by-1 hope I will identify the organization not know how right he is, he never was left to start correctly-private land owners association in the with, but on April 1 , 1974, he implemented, with the park, I believe they stated that they are willing to support of his friends at the time, Cherniack, Green pay a certain amount of money under Bill 41, and and Miller, incremental tax on old oil. So all of a the rest naturally to the government of Manitoba, sudden it became new oil, too. I think you would the honourable minister, the head of the lose many nights sleep counting how old that oil department. With his staff, they know better what was or how new. They came to the conclusion that they should give the Crown. the operators made enough money until '7 4, so Of course, in those cases, intentional amnesia they passed in the late fall, towardsthe end of the occured. They forgot altogether what the Crown did year, the law retroactively. Some poorsuckers had for them. To my knowledge, whenever there was a to borrow money to pay it, because oil people privately owned lot with a cottage, when a grader usually live from hand to mouth. would be fixing the road, it would not by-pass that The principle of retroactivity, sir, you will not be place by raising the blade and keep on going. The inventing. It is only logical. Let us be realistic. For road was looked after just as well by the privately one reason or another, the administrations made a owned lots as by the Crown-owned lots, garbage mistake for not looking after collecting what pickup-1do not mean political, I mean the refuse. belongs to the taxpayers. There was also police protection provided, The last item that I want to mention, I did hear medical protection provided in the form of doctors submission by the mining people pertaining to the being in the area, plus ambulances, et cetera. But wilderness. When I heard the wilderness, I thought they never bothered to pay a penny, of course. they were talking about Ottawa, but they said no, Maybe bureaucracy is a little bit to blame. They wrong, Ain Ron. keep the things so secret, just like Bush and When it comes to the logic of mining, what would Mulroney kept during the Iraqi War, except that happen to Mr. Minister of Natural Resourcestoday they had to blush as hell afterwards. if he would cause that Hudson Bay Mining and Secrets do not pay. They only temporarily delay Smelting would close the mine? I suggest he will be certain knowledge. Usually the one who keeps known as Jesus Christ No. 2 by the people of that something very secret eats the crow, and it is area. It is not a renewable resource. Those people shocking as heck if there is no ketchup involved. need the commodity. Would that be income? They * (191 0) need their ore. Would that be Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, et cetera? I appeal to Mr. Minister, if he listens to me, in fairness to all those that have Crown leases where The fever develops all of a sudden, without their cottages are, to take a look, use your own realizing that before anything will be done on the discretion. Just offthe cuff, the last 10 or so years, ground, they still have airplanes that they fly and what ordinarily Crown-owned leases, ownersof the they equip them with magnetometers. That is one cottages paid per season, multiply it by 10 and the simplest ways. They start with a big circle and make it retroactive. After all, those people are not come smaller and smaller and pinpoint the heaviest broke. They are usually quite wealthy. They magnetic rays. That takes a w�ile. foresaw a way to beat the Crown and the taxpayer The fever develops about protecting the and demand some more service, because they wilderness. I suggest they take their initiative first, take the attitude they are God-given gifts to pertaining to wilderness, to City Hall. That would do humanity, crying up here, the way they talk. much more good for all concerned. All the energy I heard some statements, so I appeal through spent on that, I bet you anything, if you would put you, Mr. Chairperson, to Mr. Minister, at least that to the farmers they would say, was that an April consider the retroactivity. Give the public fool they told you about. opportunity to express, other than owners-nobody In conclusion, I only want to say one thing. It is wants to pay moneY"'-but the public at large, get your good luck of the committee on that Bill 41 that 362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

I am sick. I have a record behind me of seven and I, Walter Burdeny, purchased the property from a half pages of a subject I knew, and Willie Fred Gerylo in 1969. The Parks Branch was Parasiuk questioned me 15 minutes on top of that. laughing at us paying such a high price for this The committee was in the afternoon, between property. We could have leased the land from the se ssions. I had th4;1privilege to have the committee government for $90, in which all services would be to myself. Now, smile, you are not subject to it. put in at that time. When we bought the land, we Thank you. had no culverts,ditches and no gravel roads. I had Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Walter. One to haul rock and gravel with Mr. Fred Gerylo, his moment, Walter. I believe there might be a wife and myself, Saturdays and Sundays. question. My property was flooded every spring because Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (River Heights): Mr. there were no ditches. The garage was flooded Kucharczyk, can you tell me if you are in fact still a from every spring thaw, heavy rains, with no cottage owner yourself? You are making these service or help from the Parks Branch or comments, and I know that you have been a government. So three of us from the road got cottage owner in the past. together and formed an association: Mr. William Stewart, Mr. Otto Schultz, and myself. Mr. Stewart Mr. Kucharczyk: No, my wife, daughter, Chinese became president, Otto Schultz was chow chow dog and Walter, the whole family. vice-pre s ident, and I was the se cretary and Mrs. Carstalrs: All right, the whole family owned a treasurer. cottage. From there on, we built up the road. Mr. Kucharczyk: But not myself alone. Improvements were made every year by the Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Kucharczyk, my que stion, association budget, and all the cottage owners though, is that the comments you make are being helped. We are all volunteers and put in many, made as someone who has in fact owned property many hours of labour all through the year. The within a provincial park. grass is cut in the ditches along the highway, road allowance, beach and front property, which is also Mr. Kucharczyk: I do not own. We have a lease, government property, and once again, no help or 21 years. compensation from them. Mr. Chalrperson: Walter, could you speak into the On September 15, 1987, Jol Johannessen, park microphone? patrol captain, Badge No. 116, and Bryan Mr. Kucharczyk: Sorry, maybe it is better that Stephaniuk, who called himself a lot inspector for somebodydoes not hear. Steep Rock Road, van licence number was 739 Since 1957, I believe, the family had the cottage, AEC-my wife Elsie Burdeny and I were sitting on including myself, in the Whiteshell. the deck with Mr. and Mrs. J. Black. They saw that the gate was locked, and we had signs posted on Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your the gate behind the cottage and garage which read pre sentation, Walter. "Private Property, No Trespassing." When they Mr. Kucharczyk: Thank you very kindly. I want to stepped over the gate, I said to them they were congratulate Mrs. Carstairs that she did not bite her tre spa ssing and not obeying the rules. tongue pronouncir.J my name. * (1920) Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Walter Burdeny, please, No. These gentlemen ignored what I said to them. My 154, for the committee. Mr. Burdeny, do you have a wife was sitting in the wheelchair on the deck when written presentation? they pulled out their measuring tape. They did not Mr. Walter Burdeny (Private Citizen): Yes, I put it excuse themselves while they put the tape behind in last night. her back and continued on measuring the cottage. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, you can go ahead. It is They ignored us and our privacy on our own private being distributed at this time. property. Mr. Burdeny: Honourable members of the House When there is a problem with the campers and Mr. Chairperson, I am Walter Burdeny. I am coming onto the private road to camp at the representing myself as a private landowner. lakefront, we have no protection or help from Parks July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 363

Branch to get them off the property at any time. The Mr. Glen Pinnell (Abitibi-Price): Honourable association of the road must do this together again. members, Mr. Chairperson, I am making this Once again, if there is a rowdy party or a problem, presentation tonight on behalf of Abitibi-Price. I am the Parks officers ignore the private roads. But if we an employee of Abitibi-Price. were in the campground and it happened, they On the one hand, we appreciate the opportunity would get rid of the party or parties involved. to comment and give our input on Bill41 , the parks The Parks Branch supplies cottages and act, but on the other hand, we also find it campers with wells, beaches, garbage cages, inconvenient. We should be using our energies to collection, maintenance of roads, summer and manage our operation and help create a better winter, boat launching facilities, fish-cleaning Manitoba, not always having to take action to houses, parking lots, which are maintained by defend it from some who want to destroy it. them. Private landowners receive nothing. We Because our business is in the forest industry, must pay out of our pockets for everything. most of our comments and examples pertainto the Will they come to cut the grass, maintain our forest resource, so it should be recognized if the beach, docks, ramps, roads and supply us with values and principles were applied to all resource garbage collection? What kind of service will they users, then the values would be increased give us for the taxes they want to charge us? As of multifold. now, I will stick to the old Land Titles rules of the old We are pleased the province has adopted a Land Titles act. sustainable development philosophy, as has the Levies not related to services: 13(1.1) There is no country and many nations throughout the world. free lunch for anyone in the association. I am Sustainable development provides a focus and against Bill 41 because it provides for property direction for all of us to work together so everyone's taxation without a vote. It takes away our most efforts can be in the same direction. Since the Bill basic property rights. As a private property owner, I 41 parks act has used sustainable development for do not want to see eastern Europe transplanted the basis, then we applaud the act. into Manitoba. One definition of sustainable development is, it There are a few privately owned properties in the meets the needs of the prese nt without park and privately owned properties outside the compromising the ability of the future generation to park which are not subject to the property tax and meet their own needs, a definition we Bill 41 which will not affect them. wholeheartedly support. In this presentation, we I therefore refuse to recognize the legislation would like to emphasize the importance and value unless I have a vote. I am also prepared to pay a of sound environmental economic development in negotiable fee by agreement of the association. our province and nation and make the following points in regard to what the parks act should do. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Burdeny. There might be some questions, if you do not mind. Present commitment for the use of the natural resource must be honoured. Existing legal rights Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Just for and commitments must be recognized in all areas clarification, in your second last paragraph, you say and particularly in parks that were multiuse parks. there are a few private property owners in the park Anything otherwise will have extremely negative and more private owners outside the park who are impacts on the local and provincial economy. not subject to propertytax or Bill 41 . The necessity to be certain that new protected I do not quite understand how there are some areas are not placed on areas that have high who are not going to be affected by Bill 41 . potential for future commercial use. Mr. Burdeny: I do not think they are. There are Third, environmentally sound economic more people outside of the park on Crown land management of our resources should bepromoted, than there is in the park. explained and demonstrated to the general public, Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. and this can be done in parks as well as other parts Burdeny, for your presentation. of the forest. Out-of-town presenter, No. 13, Mr. Glen Pinnell. Four, we must ensure that protected areas You can go ahead, Mr. Pinnell. designated under the Endangered Spaces 364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

Program do not impact other surroundingvaluable must also include government assistance and resources due to spread of fire, insects and support. disease. The total capital expenditure program to Five, in all cases decisions should result from environmentally upgrade the mill and meet recycle facts and using common sense in order to not requirements will cost the new group approximately negatively impact the local and provincial economy $60 million over the next five years. Additional but improve the economy, and this act should help capital expenditures for a new wood room and ensure that. other technological upgrades will increase this total to approximately $130 million. We have also I would like to explain some values at risk. The entered into an exclusive agreement with a importance of just the forest resource to Canada separate group to study the feasibility of installing a and Manitoba cannot be underemphasized. In 340 megawatt cogeneration power plant at an Manitoba alone it provides one in every 45 jobs. approximate cost of $300 million. In essence, the Many of our local communities are heavily total potential investment in our area would be dependent upon the natural resource, be it forestry, approximately $430 million or $450 million. How mining or other commercial resource use. A brief many opportunitiesare there in one's lifetime to see outline of just the Pine Falls operation shows the a $450-million investment over a five-year period? values at risk and opportunities available if we Investment is a key component of sustainable make certain the operation is sustainable. development and in order to ensure investment in a The Pine Falls operation started up in 1927 and mill such as ours the resource must be protected today has the following capacity and outputs. By from fire and disease and be available for world standards it is considered a small operation. commercial use. Would you invest your money in It produces 175,000 tonnes of newsprint annually. anything if you were uncertain of the resources It employs 500 full-time and 700 seasonal people. It availability? generates $80 million annually into the Manitoba * (1930) economy, 70 percent of the production shipped to Some of the major impacts-at Pine Falls during the U.S. This contributes to the balance of trade the 1980s, six times as much forest area was lost to and a harvest wood throughout Manitoba. Seeing fires as was harvested. If you would refer in the you have a written presentation, I will just leave you presentation to the attachment No. 1, the coloured with the numbers there. You will see that 38 area shows in red all of the area lost to fires. This, percent are on forest management licence, 19 along with the creation of the Atikaki wilderness percent are in the wood supply area, 19 percent on park, reduced the annual allowable cut available to southern Manitoba and 24 percent come from the the Pine Falls operation by 30 percent. That is western part of the province. referring to our forest management licence area. The Pine Falls operation has been in the Any further reduction in the forest resource forefront of sustainable development and can jeopardizes the viability of the Pine Falls operation. demonstrate that some harvesting is taking place Our major issue is to have the forest resource today in some of the same areas we have operated that is already committed to be protected from in 65 years ago. forest fires and to be available for commercial use. The newsprint industry in Canada and the United As you are aware, there are some people States is facing the worst financial crisis advocating no commercial use of resources in experienced in its history. Our mill is no exception. multiuse parks, areas which the local communities Closure of several machines and paper mills have have been dependent upon for decades. This does occurred throughout Canada over the years and not make sense, and it will not only reduce the more will result before balance occurs between dollars created by the commercial use of the supply and demand. Abitibi-Price's long-term resource, but it will result in a tax burden to the strategic plan does not include the Pine Falls people of Manitoba and have a negative impact on operation and has therefore been receptive to both the environment and the economy. financial offers by the management group and The following points will support the previous employees to purchase the mill. This acquisition statement: July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 365

1. Just considering three of the five major parks, and the roads are usually developed by the multiuse parks, Ducks, Nopiming and Whiteshell, forest industry which are open to recreation use by the annual allowable cut for softwoods is 217,850 others. cubic metres and for hardwoods 1 04,520 cubic A recent survey taken in B.C. and reported by Liz metres. The resource taken from these parks is Osborn of the Outdoor Recreation Council of B.C. used throughout Manitoba, but in order to place a found that twice as many people were using the potential value of just the softwoods, the 217,850 provincial forests for recreation compared to the cubic metres, assume it was converted to developed parks. Could it be the multiuse parks in newsprint. It would generate $39 million annually. our province with vast lands and roads and trails That is not considering the value of the hardwoods, throughout are more attractive to Manitobans and the forest resource of the other parks nor the value other users? Could it be Manitoba's philosophy of of the other natural resources in any of the parks. multiuse is correct? I believe most certainly it is and That is explained in more detail on attachment No. therefore support the Bill 41 park act. 2. There are many benefits of harvesting the 2. The forested areas east of Lake Winnipeg mature forest, rather than leaving it to be attacked around Pine Falls, Manigotagan, Bissett, as well as by insects and disease and then destroyed by fire. the Duck and Porcupine Mountains and Whiteshell In 1989 and 1990 alone, the amount of area have been used by either or both forestry and harvested on the FML that was salvaged from mining since the early 1900s. Over the years, an either blow-down, spruce budworm or fire was 29 infrastructure of roads, buildings, equipment and percent and 40 percent respectively. Utilizing this communities have been built. This infrastructure wood created a revenue and generated dollars in resulted because of the jobs created by the our economy while at the same time helped to stop commercial use of the resource, spin-off jobs and the spread of insect and disease and reduced the taxes collected. forest fire hazard. The attached map shows the development of the Here I refer to a few photos, and I understand provincial highways in the Duck Mountains, there are only six presentations that have them. I Nopiming Park and Whiteshell, not to mention the was on vacation and just got back so maybe you forest resource roads. How and why did these will want to share that at some point. I will refer to it communities become established? What is the anyway. value of these roads now to the provincial economy, not only for commercial use but use for Here are a few photos to show the type of wood tourism? And if you would refer to the Nos. 3 and 4 harvested when salvaging, and you will see how attachments, you will see the road infrastructure I spruce budworm and blow-down adds to the referred to. spread of insects and increases the fire hazard. Another photo shows the FML taken from the 3. Thirteenof the parks in Manitoba were created satellite and a photo of a fire area typical of the mainly in the 1960s, while one was created in the precambrian boreal forest. Notice how the soil has 1930s, another in 1976 and the other in 1985. The been burnt completely off the rocks, and it will take parks where resource extraction continues are years for the soil to build up and trees to grow. those designated as multiuse. At the time they were created, vast amounts of land was designated as Also imagine the amount of carbon dioxide being parks with the philosophy that they would be released into the air from forest fires. In my opinion, multiple use, and the commercial resource use forest fires in Manitoba have �he biggest negative would continue in the majority of the park. This impact on the environment as well as threatening philosophy respectedthe commercial use since the the economy of the forest industry and road infrastructure had been developed, and the communities that depend upon it. local communities and mills were dependent upon Another point is there are certain parts of the it, while at the same time took advantage of the country that have banned harvesting of the forest accessfor tourism, et cetera. resource in some areas. Not only are these areas It takes dollars to operate a park and develop missing the dollars that could be generated, but roads, and the revenue generated from the they are allowing a buildup of fuel that will commercial use of the resources helps pay for the eventually result in a catastrophic fire. In order to 366 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

reduce that fuel, buildup mechanical means-in precambrian boreal forest, you notice that all of the other words, it might be you could say logging-are parks are in the lower part of that zone. It does not being taken to reduce the fuel load, and I am sure it make sense to have that conflict. If we are talking is not too cost-effective and will impact on our about conflict, we really have a conflict for resource taxes. right there when we try to do things like that. One of the areas I am referring to is Banff Does it make sense to add the Whiteshell National Park. I am not saying that we should log in Nopiming Park? Of course it does not, particularly BanffNation al Park, but they already have realized when it destroys the viability of the mill and the the impact that has built up around their area and surrounding communities. The same goes for the are taking means to reduce the hazards that are in Duck Mountain Park with Riding Mountain Park that park now. being in the western upland zone giving ample 5. In many cases in our province, and in representation to that zone. The solution is to allow particular in the areas close to the Duck Mountains, the commercial use of the resources in these areas Nopiming and Whiteshell Parks, there is a direct and designate the protected areas in the northern conflict for the resources if these areas are part of the precambrian boreal forest and other designated as part of the Endangered Spaces zones where development has not taken place and Program. To have preservation in these areas and in areas where the potential for commercial use is exclude mining, forestry and other commercial low. uses does not make sense and will destroy the Other issues. There are people who are surrounding communities and the local and provincial economy. academically astute but appear to lack good common sense and practicality and continue to As depicted by the ecological zone map of push for the preservation of the natural resources Manitoba-and I would like you to refer to that one beyond reason. These people continue to be now, please. That is attachment No. 5. 1t shows the embroiled in issues concerning our environment Pine Falls area is surrounded by parks. In the past, and the use of it without fail, not to obtain the truth I these parks were established, and each one am certain, but to forward their own agenda and restricted certain use of the natural resources. draw attention to themselves. Along with the parks and the fires, it has come to * (1940) the point where the mill's viability becom es questionable, while at the same time all of the We Manitobans who truly care for our province protection of the precambrian boreal forest is in the do not have time these days to pay attention to lower portion of the zone. Already 11 .4 percent of them. Some of these people and groups appear to the FML, forest management licence area, is obtain more satisfaction out of confrontation than closed to logging. trying to reach consensus. Those people should be identified and their opinions and positions dealt with At the northern and eastern edge of the forest accordingly and, I contend, ignored, but if not management licence area where the Atikaki Park ignored at least ensure that what they are saying is and the Woodland Caribou Park are closed to logging, it equals at least the size of the forest factual and the truth. management licence area. If you would refer to In order to make our province strong and reach attachment No. 6, I would like to really emphasize its full potential, we must build partnerships and that one. You can see the area that is in pink. trust amongst all stakeholders. We need builders Already no logging is allowed in those areas, and not destroyers. We must remember the forest although the Woodland Caribou Park is in Ontario. industry is made up of people and communities If we did not allow logging in our multiuse parks, who are trying to do a good job. We work with a Nopiming and the Whiteshell, you can just see the product that is renewable, recyclable, reusable, amount of area right around Pine Falls that would biodegradable, and then convert it into a higher be excluded from logging. value product in order to maintain or raise our Looking at No. 5, if you would refer back to No. 5, standard of living. It is the backbone of our nation. it shows it there. What I am saying in that number is Why destroy it? Why not join forces with us and in our ecological zone No. 4, which is the work with us? July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 367

Criticism of the act. We have maybe one criticism Mr. Pinnell: Yes, we believe it should. There will of the act and that is the use of "natural" in the always be certainconflict amongst us, but I believe classification of parks. I would suggest that name the bill will lead to establishing a resource base that might be changed to "multiuse." the industry and others should be able to be satisfied with and get some assurance that they In summary, sustainable development must be have it, and investmentwould be able to proceed. the focus for our province with sound environmental economic development. Forest I am of the belief, and our company is strongly of resources must be protected from fires, be made the belief that we have to sit down with people and available to use commercially in areas of traditional talk openly and honestly with each other and use. Two, we must be builders and not destroyers resolve conflict. I believe this bill will help us do that. and ensure we are following the philosophy of Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Pinnell, for your building our province, not destroying it. Three, presentation. I listened to your comments to the whenever a decision is made to preserve an area, minister, and it is part of the question I wanted to this must be well thought through in all aspects and ask you, particularly since we had a presentation in particularits impact on the local communities and last night where that presenter was objecting to this provincial economy must be considered. bill and said that it would lead to more confrontation (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Acting Chairperson, in between environmentalists and people in the the Chair) logging industry and make it more difficult for these groups to work together. Where would our economy and environment be without a strong manufacturing base? It is our belief I was going to ask you for your comments on that the parks act will provide the mechanism to that. What is your opinion on it? Do you feel, and I ensure our province's environment and economy think you partly answered it through the minister's are sustainable and for that reason we request you question, that this bill will make it more difficult or pass this act. Thank you, Madam Acting easier for you to work along with those groups who Chairperson. are opposed to logging and those groups who want to preserve the forests in their natural state? The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank you. Would you be prepared to answer questions if Mr. Pinnell: We believe that harvesting-! guess committee members so desire? maybe it alters the natural state. I have to admit that. We believe we can work with environmental Mr. Pinnell: Yes. groups. The people who are truly lookingto protect Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural the environment, we have been working with those Resources): Thank you, Mr. Pinnell. I wish to people all along. We support the endangered express my appreciation for your presence and spaces act. We agree that 12 percent of our taking your time. I could not help but agree with you province should be set aside. on your opening statement or among your opening I guess I have to refer back to the statements about the time that we expend, both attachments-well, you could say all of them, but yourselves as people involved in the industry and, particularly five and six, where all of the parks quite frankly, myself as the minister responsible for basically are in the southern parts of the province, the department, in trying to mitigate the conflict the same places where the mills are located in the between the different demands on the same province, the same place where all the people are resource base. located, or the majority of them are located. In your reading of Bill 41 , of course, dependent We have to ensure that those communities still on government actionand subsequent action in the exist, and why would we take areas like that for the processes line set up in Bill 41 , in the manner and endangered spaces? I am not saying we do not way we set up the systems plan, categorization of alter some of it, but why would we basically take ali parks, would that lead to a kind of-you know, I of those parks and not have them as multiuse? appreciate that some things never end, but it should settle, and that is surely what I am looking I again refer back to some other people in other for in Bill 41 , the question of access to resourcesby provinces who are finding that the forest industry a firm such as yours. roads and areas, provincial forests, are being 368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

utilized more than the parks are. We can work Ms. Wowchuk: One of the concerns that people together, if people want to work together. have when they live in mountainous areas is the Ms.Wowchuk: I thank you for that answer. I can concern about clear cutting. That concern has understand what you are saying, because I certainly arisen in the Swan River area in the last recognize the economic value to our communities few weeks, since we had the tremendous flood, and the need for these activities. If all of this activity which I am sure you are aware of. It has been leaves our communities, they are certainly going to suggested that a better way to harvest in those suffer. areas would be by selective cutting, and then you could protect more of the area. But from what you have said about where the Would you be in favour of selective cutting in population is and where the mills are, do you think there are ways that we could look at establishing those kinds of areas where there are steep new parks? Are you suggesting that we look at escarpments, and there is a danger of quick runoff if too much of it becomes clear-cut? establishing new parks in areas where there is not as much activity in the forest, or as much * (1950) development? Is that what you are suggesting? Mr. Pinnell: We do not feel that the clear-cut areas Mr. Pinnell: Yes, that is true. should be very large. We believe in clear cutting. I know we would be very popular if we said we did Wowchuk: You mentioned the Duck Mountain Ms. not, but it is good for the forest if we do clear cut in and the Porcupine mountain areas as areas of high areas. The spruce and the jack pine stands are activity. Do you believe areas should be set aside? usually created after a catastrophe such as fire or I know there is work being done in areas that have something like that. They are all even-aged stands. been identified by local people in those partsof the If you go in and you selectively cut those areas, you province which they feel should not be logged. are not opening them up for good regeneration. They feel those areas could be set aside to meet a portion of the 12 percent that we should be setting One thing, in some ways, we are not fortunate, aside. but in other ways, we are fortunate. In our province, there are no major clear-cuts. Our terrain does not I am sure you are familiar with the Roaring River allow that we are able to clear cut vast amounts of and the Bell River areas that have been identified. areas. Do you think those areas should be protected, or is We it of your opinion that there should be access to have looked at it, and our clear cuts, if you logging for all of them? want to call them clear cuts-then I will go up and I will show you a lot of trees in them, but we refer to Mr. Pinnell: I think those areas should be looked at them as clear cuts-are not as big as the area of and a common-sense approach used to determine the Polo Park mall. All of this has been blown out of if they should still be open to harvest or if some of context. them should be preserved. The A.ctlng Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Again, we have 11.4 percent of our forest Excuse me, I would just like to remind committee management licence area already closed to members, we do have a time limit. We are well logging in our forest management licence area and beyond exceeding that time limit. an equal amount, Atikaki and Woodland Caribou I thank you for your presentation, Mr. Pinnell. Park, closed to logging, equal to our forest management licence area. Mr. Pinnell: I brought one thing. I only have 12, though. There is an insert that we put in a paper I think everything has to be looked at before we about a year ago. There is a lot of good valuable make a decision like that. The local people have to information in that, if I could leave it for distribution. be involved. Really, we have to look too at our economy, what is happening there , and the The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank impacts we are going to have on the economy if we you very much. We will ensure that they are set aside those areas. distributed to the committee members. I do not know those two areas in detail, so I Mr. Pinnell: Thank you. would not want to really give any more than just a The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Mr. general comment. Vincent Keenan. Copies of your presentation are July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 369

currently being distributed. You may proceed, Mr. wind damage. As the stand continues to decline, it Keenan. becomes ideally suited for the spread of fire, and Mr. VIncent Keenan (Private Citizen): Thank you. the cycle begins all over again. Madam Acting Chairperson, committee members, I As I mentioned, the boreal forest has developed would like to thank the cabinet committee for this as a fire ecosystem. Many of the plant communities opportunity to provide some of my personal are not capable of regenerating themselves under feelings regarding Bill 41. I would first like to a mature forest. Therefore, if fire is suppressed, congratulate the province on their effort to solicit these species would not be able to regenerate public input to Bill 41 through the Natural Lands and themselves. The Endangered Spaces Program Special Places workshops held in the fall of 1992. realizes this and for that reason does not support I would now like to address how Bill 41 will assist fire suppression in protected areas. the Province of Manitoba in eventually reaching its Now we have to consider just what our goal of preserving 12 percent of the province for the multiple-use parks are. These parks are not just Endangered Spaces Program. large tracts of forested land with rivers and lakes I am a cottage owner at Beresford Lake in and the diversity of wildlife you would expect to find Nopiming Park. I am also a forester responsible for there. These parks have become sources of forest management in and around Nopiming Park. I recreation and relaxation for hundreds of will attempt to use my expertise as a forester and thousands of Manitobans. Wherever you find large my concern as a cottage owner to explain why numbers of people like that, you will find some of our present parks may not be suitable development. candidates to assist in meeting the goals of the Endangered Spaces Program and how Bill 41 will Let us take Nopiming Park and go beyond its address this issue. lakes, rivers and forests and look at the investments Manitobans have made. There are six Classification of provincial parks, specified in cottage subdivisions and four remote access lakes subsection 7(2), will enable the Parks Branch to classify parks which are suitable candidates for the with 444 recreational cottages. That would Endangered Spaces Program and which parks are represent about $25 million on the real estate not. market. These cottages range from small weekend getaways to the sole Canadian residences of some (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) retired Manitobans who travel south for the winter. You may ask why all of our parks cannot be These are not cottages but homes with all the included in the Endangered Spaces Program, and amenities, including some with self-contained solar just forget about the different categories. Let us and propane systems that would support your examine our present multiple-use parks that now average urban home. include areas ranging from wilderness preservation to commercial mining and forestry. Another area of private development would be in tourist and outfitter lodges. There are three We must begin by looking at the natural cycles commercial lodges in Nopiming Park. These that maintain the boreal forest if it is left to manage lodges attract Manitoba residents as well as itself. Many of the tree species in the boreal forest American tourists, hunters andfishermen who are require full sunlight in order to grow. Therefore, looking for a more economical alternative to fly-in they cannot regenerate themselves under a mature outcamps. I will not even attempt to guess at their forest. These �species have adapted to regenerating themselves after a disturbance. economic value, but they reprssent the homes and livelihoods of Manitoba families. The most common disturbance in the boreal forest is fire. If left unmanaged, large fires can be The final area of development is the five private expected to occurevery 50 to 1 00 years. Aftera fire and provincial campgrounds. Four of these are occurs, these pioneer species quickly reclaim the operated by Parks Branch with a total of 188 site. The different plant communities that are campsites. Any economic value placed on these formed will mature in 60 to 100 years. At this time, areas would probably be too low if you asked the the strength and vigour of the trees decline and over 8,000 people who use these campgrounds they become susceptible to insects, disease and annually. 370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

Now let us consider the boreal forest ecosystem fire. With the right weather conditions and the and the development in our multiple use parks in volatility of a continuous old forest, Nopiming Park conjunction with the Endangered Spaces Program. could be transformed from an outdoorwonderland To truly preserve this ecosystem, forest fires should to a charred landscape with everything in its path be allowed to burn unchecked. This would create a destroyed in a matter of a few days. conflict because the Department of Natural • (2000) Resources is mandated to protect people and propertyas a first priority in fire protection. Even if we were able to suppress forest fires long into the future, we would then have removed Let us assume for a moment that fires were mother nature's prime tool in maintaining the allowed to burn unchecked. In all likelihood, most of biodiversity of the boreal forest we are trying to the 79 cottages at Beresford Lake would have preserve and forest management would not be an burnt in the last 10 years. Aggressive firefighting in option in an area classified as wilderness. 1983 stopped the Long Lake fire at our doorstep. Even still, twoor three cottageswere lost to the fire. Our multiple-use parks do not meet the criteria of In 1987, the Wallace Lake fire attacked from the the Endangered Spaces Program, nor are they opposite direction. The fire hit the lakeshore at worthy of a wilderness park classification. These midnight, sending burning embers across the lake parks have been developed for recreation and into the heart of the subdivision. Fire crews were industry for over 100 years in some cases. It only established overnight and were fighting the three makes sense to have some mechanism, as fires burning within the subdivision by dawn. If detailed in Bill 41, to differentiate these areas from these crews and the accompanying air support wilderness areas that truly represent unique natural were not present, my cottage and most of the landscapes in an undisturbed state. Our present others would have been destroyed. multiple-use parks form the economic base for some rural Manitoba communities through mining In all likelihood, the province will continue to and timber resource extraction. They also provide suppress forest fires in our parks even if they are an escape from the pressures of everyday lives for classed as endangered spaces. The people of thousands of Manitobans through camping and Manitoba would not allow their parks to burn cottaging. indiscriminately. The investment the people in the province of What would the long-term effect of combining Manitoba have made in our multiple-use parks is preservation and fire suppression do to our parks? too high to risk. The present forest management Eventually the forest would become old with very system should be maintained to ensure a healthy few young stands of trees. These areas would then diverse forest in which fires are more easily be extremely susceptible to insects and disease. controlled. Many of the over mature forest stands would be incapable of regenerating themselves because of (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Acting Chairperson, in their adaption to fire and would become prime the Chair) sources for fire ignition. Wilderness parks should be located in Because of the protected status, forest undeveloped portions of the province, where nature management around developed areas would not can be allowed to manage naturally with minimal be allowed. The trees blown down by the 1989 risk to the lives and investments of Manitobans. As wind storm at Flanders and Booster Lake would not it stands, Bill 41 will provide Manitoba with the have been salvaged to reduce the fire hazard. The means to set aside 12 percent of the province areas south of Long Lake and north of Bird Lake, which can truly be preserved as wilderness. which have been devastated by spruce budworm The only change I would suggest to Bill 41, would infestations would have been left as dry be to remove the words "natural park" from tinderboxes waiting for the next lightning storm to subsection 7(2)(b) and replace it with the words cross Lake Winnipeg. In all likelihood, more •multiple-use park." The name "multiple use" will cottages would burn when the fire broke out in betterreflect the diverse uses of this type of park. these areas. Eventually, the fuel loading in an old forest would become so high that no amount of fire Please support Bill 41, because i1 will allow the suppression would be able to prevent the spread of Province of Manitoba the means of preserving the July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 371

rural Manitoba economy, aswell as areas worthyof depending on what side of the political fence you being called wilderness. Thank you. happen to sit. The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank It is time for you to grow up and get in touch with you, Mr. Keenan. Would you be prepared to accept a Manitoban who enjoys the beauty and diversity of questions, if there are any from the committee our parks, while at the same time picks up his lunch members? bucket and goesto work to support his family. This Mr. Keenan: Yes, I will. is the same person who pays taxes, supports his community and generally only wants the Mr. Enns: Allow me to thank the presenter for an opportunity to raise his children so that they, too, excellent presentation. One always learns will be productive members of societywith respect something else virtually from every presentation for property and people. that we hear. Thank you very much. Provincial parks are wonderfulplaces. The parks Mr. Keenan: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I am familiar with in my part of the province are The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank relatively new in terms of their presence. I do not you, Mr. Keenan. believe there were any parks in the area when the Kelly Sharpe? You may proceed, Mr. Sharpe. mill in Pine Falls first began. Now that these parks Copies are being distributed to the committee are in existence, there are those who profess our members. traditional areas of harvest should be taken away from us. Mr. Kelly Sharpe (Private Citizen): My family has been an integral part of the landscape of Manitoba If these people get their way, I suppose some for well over 1 00 years. I shudder to think what my new jobs would be created, mostnotably for social ancestors, and most probably yours, would think of workers to deal with all the new welfare cases that this entire process. would follow the closing of the mill. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought Common sense seems to be the rarest of that I would someday have to stand before elected commodities these days. There is room in our officials and my fellow citizens to defend the provincial parks for a multitude of uses if things are community in which I live, the work I am fortunateto managed properly. Rather than sit here and listen, have, the livelihoods of so many of my fellow why do you not go out and have a look at what is Manitobans. happening in the area around Pine Falls? Come Bill 41 is an opportunity for the government of and see how our people make every effort to Manitoba to show people of the province that the ensure that the forest is maintained and enhanced. government stands for the concept of multiuse I can assure you that it looks a hell of a lot better parks and sustainable development. In so saying, than after a long weekend at Grand Beach. the legislation should reflect the interests of the People who make their livelihood from an area many stakeholders. do not dump in their own backyard. They nurture I would like to take a moment to discuss the and protect the forest so that it will sustain the subject of the interests of the stakeholders, the generation to follow. This dog-and-ponyshow may stakeholders, in my mind, being the economy, the help you make an informed decision, but I suspect environment and the people. Let us face facts, the that the course of action you must take would be decision before you will not please everyone. Very just as well taken if you use y�ur common sense. seldom will policy of significance delight all those Thank you. with an interest in the subject. The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank Allow me to remind the government and you, Mr. Sharpe. Would you be prepared to answer members of all political stripes that they have an questions from committee members if indeed there obligation to the people of Manitoba to make are any? decisions thatcan be controversial and upsettingto Mr. Sharpe: Yes. special interest groups. Politicians seem to thrive on the pursuit of pleasing everyone and have the The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank habit of taking opposite positions on issues you, Mr. Sharpe. 372 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

Mr. Enns: Mr. Sharpe, I appreciate ve ry much your So maybe I should do that and severely redefine presentation and for the time in coming to bring it to and accept Dr. Rajotte's opinion and definition of this committee. parks and so create the boundaries for those parks We heard some excellent presentations last and call what we normal human beings or average night. I recall partictJiarlythe presentation of one Dr. human beings have, an old-fashioned definition of Rajotte . The problem really is with the word "parks." the word "park," that is , that we perhaps want to I take this opportunity to ask you, as a Manitoban take our families there to enjoy it, that we may who was raised and has grown up in our province, perhaps let some people make their livelihoods out what is your definition of the word "park"? of it, let us call them resource reserves, as has been suggested. Let us call them recreational Mr. Sharpe : I could not really answer that. I do not areas. Let us call them anything but parks and know. It is a place where people can go and enjoy maybe we could learn to live with each other in a themselves. There would not be any parks in the little bit more peace and harmony. Thank you, area where I am if it was not for the people like Madam Acting Chairperson. myself and those who came before me. We are the ones who put the roads in there so the rest of The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank Manitobans could go there and enjoy and see the you for your presentation, Mr. Sharpe. things that are out there. These areas that they talk Sharon and Jack Coote. You may proceed when about clear-cut, you cannot see those from the you are ready. The Clerk is distributing copies of roads. your presentation. You know, as I invited you people, please come Mr. Jack Coote (Private Citizen): Thank you very out and have a look.We have got nothing to hide. much. I am the Jack of the team. Sharon stands Mr. Enns: Madam Acting Chairperson, to Mr. beside me. We are from Pine Falls and proud of it, Sharpe, it is a genuinely hard question to answer. I where I have worked for thirty-eight and a half appreciate that, particularly in the professional years. community of park watchers and as expressed by I would like to thank you for the opportunity to Dr. Rajotte last night, parks means a very specific address the committee regarding Bill 41 . My wife thing. Parks means the protection of undisturbed and I find it strange that we have a need to address wilderness, period. Any people activity is incidental this committee in an effort to support something and, of course , any resource extraction is that has been accepted as our way of life for so absolutely prohibited. So in Dr. Rajotte's opinion, many years. as expressed before this committee, Duck Mountain Provincial Park would not qualify for the We are pleased the government has introduced word "park" because it has been logged for a Bill 41 which will assure the continuation of our hundred years and it has been disturbed. industry, and at the same time, we are appalled that Under Dr. Rajotte'sopinion, Nopiming would not it is necessary for us to defend our existence in this qualify as a provincial park under the term "park" area after approximately 65 years of successful because the environment has been disturbed. The operation. Whiteshell has a disturbed environment by people We believe that parklands should be set aside so activity, by a very little bit of mining and by some that all of us in Manitoba can enjoy the wilderness selective logging. So that is the crux and the core of and outdoorsthe same way we have over the years the issue here. and our future generations have the same * (2010) opportunities to earn their livelihood in industries such as ours. We have a very difficult time I suspect it is not all that difficultfor government understanding the viewpoint of those who would to resolve or indeed for this minister to resolve if I see such severe restrictions put on our operation accept what I believe to be agrowing attachment to so we would no longer be a viable business here in the word "park," which is somewhat different than Manitoba. what I have grown up with and what you expressed just a few moments ago. But sometimes you just We are proud of the fact that we can contribute cannot stand against the wind. The wind is blowing, millions of dollars annually to the Manitoba and you have to go with it . economy, especially in today's climate. We hope to July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 373

be in a position to continue to do so for many years the adoption of the parks act will ensure that our in the future. future generations can look forward to many years of continued operation. Thank you. Pine Falls is a close-knit community made up of many different cultures who are used to working The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank together for the betterment of all. We can see no you, Mr. and Mrs. Coote. Would you be prepared to reason why all of us cannot work together respond to questions of committee members? regarding these very important issues we face Mr. Coote: Yes, we would. today, with the end result being that we are all able Ms.Wowch uk: I want to thank Mr. and Mrs. Coote to enjoy our lands and forests in a manner we can for their presentation. I want to tell you that I know all be proud of. The parks have become a place many people who have made their living as you say where many hundreds of Manitobans have enjoyed you have, and I know the people who live off these their recreation and have also supported hundreds resources also respect the resources and want of families over the years not only in our industry, them there for their future generations. but also in mining and tourism. These parks are now developed as multiuse areas and to think of I just have a question on one line here. You said: changing the rules at this stage of the game seems "We are pleased that the government has unreal and a backward step which would have a introduced Bill 41 which will assure the continuance damning effect on the Manitoba economy. of our industry." I want to ask you then, if Bill 41 is not passed, why do you feel that your industry will The concept of preserving 12 percent of the not continue, or what are the risks if Bill 41 is not province for an Endangered Spaces Program is a passed? good one, but to suggest this be accomplished by changing the existing parkland area is not Mr. Coote: I do not think that is what it says. acceptable and should not be a consideration. Certainly, that is not what it was intended to say. I believe that Bill 41 will, in fact, provide some Mrs. Sharon Coote (Private Citizen): I am Sharon assurance that our operation in Pine Falls will of the party here. l am third generation in this partof continue for quite a long time. I think that with the the country. My grandfather helped in the building failure to accept or adopt Bill 41 , you will just hear a of the Pine Falls town site, also delivered mail by hell of a lot more commotion from the people in dog team between Pine Falls and Bissett. My father Pine Falls. We ain't going down without a fight. I worked in the gold mine in Bissett and also in the can tell you that right now. newsprint mill in Pine Falls. Ms. Wowchuk: If you will bear with me, I am not My husband is second generation. We have lived familiar with the area of Pine Falls. That was why I and raised our family in Pine Falls. Our families just wanted clarification. Is it your feeling then that if have learned to love and to respect our surrounding Bill 41 is not passed that you will see the Pine Falls forests and lakes. We know that the forests are our operation closed down? livelihood and if not properly managed we would Mr. Coote: I think it would make it very difficult not exist. We have trapped, hunted, fished and because, as Mr. Pinnell pointed out, the whole cottaged in this area for three generations. Ours industry, certainly our division, is in dire needs right has been a multiuse area for these same three now and any extra costs which would be attached generations long before there were any parks, I to logging further from our plant, for example, might add. The forestry and the mining that has certainlywould not make us a viable operation, in existed in our area over these generations have not my opinion. We see that Bill 41 provides multiuse had near the devastating effects as forest fires and hopefully will be adopted by this committee have done. and by the government. We believe the concept ofmul tiuse parklands as Mr. Praznlk: Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to outlined in Bill 41 is an acceptable strategy. As thank Mr. and Mrs. Coote for comingin tonight. It is there were no designated parks in our area years always good to hear from people who live, work ago, we are concerned that the establishment of and have spent their lives and their families have more and more parklands will restrict our spent their lives in the area that is so affected by operations to such an extent that we will no longer this piece of legislation. So often we have those be able to operate. My husband and I believe that who take an interest in it from time to time who do 374 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

not live and work and have long histories in that intolerance voiced by the present discussions area that go back over many generations. disturbing. Your comments that you bring to the committee Ladies and gentlemen of the Legislature, please tonight, I think, are most useful in enlightening legislate on the side of tolerance, allowing us all to many of the members as to the long history of enjoy the benefits from our forests and to sustainable forestry in northeastern Manitoba and encourage and respect one another. We support what can be done. Thank you for coming in to make Bi11 41 . the presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Hanson. If you do not mind, there might be a Gordon Hanson. question. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Hanson, I just wanted again to Mr. Chairperson: Do you have a written take the opportunity to thank you for coming in. I presentation, Mr. Hanson? know, you and I, from time to time on some of the Mr. Gordon Hanson (Private Citizen): No, I have partisan political issues, find ourselves on other not. sides of the fence. I think your presence here tonight attests to the fact that the effort of the Mr. Chairperson: In that case, just go ahead. people who live in that area goes beyond partisan * (2020) politics, and is certainly one that is widespread and Mr. Hanson : Okay. My name is Gordon Hanson, an understanding of people who have lived in the and I am speaking on behalf of the seniors of the area for many, many years and have seen the Golden Leisure Club of Pine Falls. cycle of forests and the sustainability. Forests are an important resource for commerce Thank you for bringing that very broad view to the and for recreation and should be preserved for this committee. generation and future generations. This can best Mr. Ashton: I also want to add a comment. I be accomplished with the co-operation of those appreciate your comment in terms of tolerance and most interested in maintaining the forests, the understanding, particularly of the situation outside people whose livelihoods depend on the continuing of the city of Winnipeg, coming as I do from of harvesting. Thompson which, of course, is a considerable Selective logging and recreation can and do distance from the city of Winnipeg. One thing we complement one another. Roads provided for often wish is that people understood the situation in harvesting can be used for cottages, fishermen, our own community, so I can certainly respect your hiking, et cetera. The people harvesting whose views before the com mittee tonight. I think you livelihoods depend on a healthy forest will devote spoke very ably on the people whom you are whatever energies are necessary to combat fires, representing tonight. disease and insects and keep our forests green for Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Hanson, thank you for your the use of this and future generations. presentation and I want to ask you a question. I Abitibi has been harvesting in the Pine Falls area want to ask whether you were involved in the for 67-plus years and are still harvesting in the logging industry, in the harvesting of the resources same locale, proof that care and responsibility have in your younger days, and whether you can assure been exercised over the years. With the use of us that the forests that were harvested many years modern technology, past performance can be ago have replenished themselves and are being improved so that parks and logging can continue reharvested again or will be reharvested in a few for many generations to come. Countries in Europe years. have learned how to utilize forests for commerce Mr. Hanson: This has been our experience at Pine and recreation, and we can do the same. Falls. I have only been there for 26 years. I grew up In listening to the comments last evening, I am in northern Saskatchewan in the bush and the concerned by the intolerance of the urban people homestead country and did a lot of harvesting in for the rural population. We see and read of the that time, butthe experience of Abitibi indicates that intolerance on the news from the Balkan States they have been harvesting in that area for 60-some and Middle East, and I find the amount of years, and they are still harvesting in the same July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 375

area, so they must have exercised some proper Mr. Ostrowski : Thank you. management. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, sir. That completes the people who presentation, Mr. Hanson. No. 128, Mayor Henry have identified as out-of-town presenters. If there Ostrowski from the village of Powerview. It is His are any more, please identify yourselves to the staff Honour this evening. Do you have a written at the back of the room. Otherwise,we will continue presentation this evening? through the list startingat the top of the list. No. 1 , Vira and Dr. Russ Evans. No. 2, Doreen Ander. Mr. Henry Ostrowski (Mayor, VIIIage of Alex Spinak. Ronald Down. Dave Nickarz. Powervlew): No. Do you have a writtenpresent ation, Mr. Nickarz? Mr.Chai rperson: No, then we will begin. Mr. Dave Nlckarz(Private CIUzen): Yes, I do, but Mr. Ostrowski: Good evening, ladies and I did not get any copies made because you guys do gentlemen, honoured guests and members of the not have recycled, unbleached paper. committee. My name is Henry Ostrowski Jr. I am Mr. Chairperson: the mayor for the village of Powerview. Before I Go ahead, sir. start my presentation, I would like to remind the Mr. Nlckarz: Yes, I just want to start out by saying members of the committee as well as everyone this is my first public hearing I have ever attended, else concerned, that you might have heard and so do not mind if I am a bit nervous talking to you more than likely will hear, a vast number of issues guys, because I have pretty intense things to say, brought before you, but the main issue that is to be so just bear with me. dealt with at this point in time is, in general, will the Greeting, committee members. My name is new Park Lands Act be beneficial to all parties David Nickarz. I am twenty-one years old. concerned. Mr. Chairperson: Could I ask you to just speak up Now, from a brief but to-the-point presentation, into the mike a little bit more? They are having we the people of the village of Powerview support trouble hearing at the back of the room, and the new Park Lands Act concept. We also feel that Hansard has to pick you up so they can record it. with the proper administration and proper Mr. Nlckarz : Greetings, committee members. My regulations put in place through the act, the act will name is David Nickarz, I am twenty-one years old. most definitely be beneficial to everyone concerned I am an engineering student at the University of and that is by way of the one and most important Manitoba. common goal, environmentally and economically sound sustainable development. While I speak, Bill 41 is about to go into its third reading. I find the fact that you are holding public An added note, if all parks become designated hearings at this time very offensive. It is kind of like and/or zoned for specific uses and all people shooting someone twice and asking if they would concerned together strive to achieve the aforesaid like to be shot a third time. It is very easy to be common goal instead of going out afterindividual or cynical about these processes, so I will do my best personal goals of glory grabbing or whatever, we to present a different mood to you, although I doubt would probably be able to stand tall and proud if I will keep from being cynical. looking over our accomplishments. Therefore, in closing, we the people of Powerview urge the * (2030) members of the committee to give their unanimous I could go on about the implications of this bill, support to the new Park Lands Act. Thank you. how the parks act is going to be perverted, or how you Tories are only doing this for your friends in big Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Ostrowski. business. I could whine about my favourite fishing Would you take some questions? lake or my canoe route that will be polluted by Mr. Ostrowski: Sure. bridges and runoff, but I will not. Other people are Mr.Enns : Mr. Chairperson, again, just on behalf of going to do that for me. myself and the committee, I appreciate your taking I am here to represent a differentspecial interest the time to make this brief but important group. They can be called by many names, but I presentation to this committee. Thank you very choosenonhuman life forms. They include caribou, much. foxes, deer, owls, birds, snakes, and fish, as well 376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

as trees, plants, mosses, fungi and insects. I am placed within a plastic bag made of petrochemicals even here to represent lakes, rivers, rocks, soil, which is then sealed with a plastic tie made of forest fires and air. petrochemicals. I guess none of you would expect that rocksare The packagesof English muffinsare then loaded life forms, but I speak in a spiritual sense. I consider into a truck which hauls them to the air-conditioned, myself a deep ecologist. I believe all life forms have fluorescent-lit, Muzak-filled grocery store. Finally, inherent value, value other than that which humans you drive two tons of metal to the store and back place on them, other than what they contribute to and pop the muffins in the toaster. Eventually you the gross national product. will throw away the cardboard and plastic We live in an industrial civilization, high energy packaging which will then have to be disposed of and centralized control. So much energy and as solid waste. All of this for just 130 calories per resources are wasted in the production of even the serving of muffin. simplest things. I have an example of this from Not only have tens of thousands of energy Jeremy Rifkin's book called Entropy, published in calories gone into the entire process, but medical 1980. evidence suggests that both additives and lack of Mr. Chairperson: I am going to have to ask you to fibre in refined breads may pose a serious hazard speak a little bit louder into the microphones to your health. In the end, the energy that was though. added to the muffins at each step of the process was insignificant compared to the energy that was Mr. Nl ckarz: They cannot be lengthened or dissipated at each step of the process. anything? Mr. Chairperson: No, it is as close as they can get. This is industrial civilization, like I said before, high energy and centralized control. You may think Mr. Nl ckarz: Okay, sorry. that industrial civilization has give us more Mr. Chairperson: If you could just speak up, it will freedoms. I dq not think so. This is wrong. be fine. They usually pick you up. I have written letters to Gary Filmon before and Mr. Nl ckarz: Okay. the honourable minister Harry Enns. They have told Take, for example, your morning English muffin. me that most of my economic well-being is based As we will show in the next chapter-blah, blah, on resource extraction. I am not too proud of that, blah-but once grown and harvested, the folly is since a lot of it is really destructive. compounded manyfold thanks to our national I have another quote from the book Entropy: We mania for processed food. moderns take pride in the fact that we only have to Here are just some of the energy steps that go work 40 hours a week and that we can take off two into making your English muffin. The wheat is taken or more weeks each year for vacation. Most by a fossil-fuel-driven truck made of nonrenewable hunter-gatherer societies would find such resources to a large centralized baking house, conditions intolerable. The fact is, contemporary housing numerous machines that very inefficiently hunter-gatherers would work no more than 12 to 20 refine, enrich, bake and package English muffins. hours per week and for weeks and months each year they do not work at all. Instead their time is At the bakery, the wheat is refined and often filled with leisure pursuits including games, sporting bleached. These processes make for a nice white events, art, music, dance, ceremonies and visiting bread but rob the wheat of vital nutrients, so the with neighbours. flour is then enriched with niacin, iron, thiamine and riboflavin. Next, to ensure that the English muffins Contrary to popular opinion, studies of the few will be able to withstand long truck journeys to remaining hunter-gatherer societies show that stores, where they will be kept on shelves for many some are among the healthiest people in the world. days or even weeks, preservatives, calcium Their diets are nutritious and many, like the propionate, is added along with dough conditioners bushmen in Africa, live well into theirsixties without such as-oh,a bunch of chemical names here. The the aid of modern medicine. Many hunter-gatherer bread is then baked and placed in a cardboard box societies place a premium on co-operation and which has been printed in several colours to catch sharing and show little inclination for warring and your eye on the shelf. The box and muffins are aggression against each other or outside groups. July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 377

I have been an activist for over three years now. exclude the Japan aquarium, aquariums in I have read books on howthe natural world is being Germany and in the United States from getting destroyed by government and large corporations in whales from our waters. the name of money and power. I have seen how This is a partial victorysince whales may still be this happens locally. captured for aquariums inside Canada. There is The Filmon government changed the wildlife also no law on exporting whales from aquariums management act so that Ducks Unlimited, a inside Canada. So they could be caught, sent corporation whose very name demonstrates their inside Canada and then sent outside of Canada disrespect for life, so they could build an office from the aquariums. The Montreal Biodome intends complex in a U.N.-recognized marsh. A recent to kidnap 12 whales in 1994. We intend to stop this. study shows that rare species of songbirds have I would like to warn you, when you have laws been extirpated from the area of the building site. changed to suit your friends in industry, when The wildlife management act process, the bill, political processeslik e this oneare stacked against made me very angry to say the least. To thisday, us, when at Bill 38 hearings for the wildlife Friends of Oak Hammock Marsh is in courton the management act, I believe it was Harry Enns, the issue, in federal court. The reality of the issue is honourable minister, said that he will listen to the that the building is up. You guys won. We should public presentations but he will not change a thing, have put ourselves in front of the bulldozers. This is you leave people no choice. Whatwill you do when my only regret thatwe did not. your sons anddaughters are standing in front of the The time has come to take matters into our own bulldozers alongside us? People are going to take hands. We can no longer rely on government, the law into their own hands. industry or even Greenpeace to stop industrial I will give you a few examples of such people. A civilization from taking the wila places. Each man named Paul Watson helped start Greenpeace individual must act in defence of all life. but got kicked out for being too violent, or In the summer of 1992, four activists and myself supposedly too violent. The supposedlyviolent act travelled to Churchill to stop the Shedd Aquarium that he committed was to grab a spiked club from a from capturing four beluga whales from the seal murderer and throw it in the water. I have a Churchill River estuary. We did not prevent the piece I can read from. capture due to many reasons, such as not getting By 1977,Watson was on the Greenpeace board our boat out in time and getting money togetherand of directors and was entrustedwith an expedition to getting people together. We got international press protest the killing of baby harp seals, the coverage of the issue, so people in the United defenceless, doe-eyed, white furballs that have States know about the abuse of the whales up become almost synonymous with Greenpeace as north. whales. The protest took place on the treacherous A month later, back in their prison in Chicago, Labrador front ice floes off Newfoundland. two of them were murdered after a vet, not even * (2040) licensed to practise in the state, killed them after At one point, Watson took a wooden club used to they gave them antibiotics for a parasite. Those kill seals out of a sealer's grasp and threwit into the whales did not ask to be violently separated from icy water. Watson then moved several harp seal their families, jumpedon, tied up and thrown into a pelts from one floe to another to make it harder for holding tank and then packed into crates like the sealers to do their job. His intent was to common cargo. interfere as much as possible with the slaughter We were there on behalf of those whales, and without hurting anybody. When he spied a cable the courts agreed with us. They said thatthe whale used to haul pelts into the nearby sealing ship, capture was legal but recognized us as Watson, who had a pair of handcuffs attached to representing the animals' interest. his belt, ran to the cable and cuffed himself to it. He We, along with many other people working on was certain that this move would shut down the this issue, stopped the capture of whales for export. sealing. John Crosbie announced, later that year, that no I could not find the otherquote in here, but there whales would be caught for export. That would was also a time when he went out and he sprayed 378 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

the seals with green paint to stop them from being sanctions she urged to be enforced on other slaughtered. This move was criticized by nations. Her real message to Third World nations in environmentalists saying that polar bears could Our Common Future was, do what we tell you and spot them easier andthey could eat them. I would ignore our actions. rather have my chance with the polar bear than Gro wants it both ways. She wants to be known being clubbed on the head and skinned alive. as the champion of conservation and she wants to Since then, he and his conservation group, the kill whales. At first, she thought she could appease Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, have had the whalers and not be caught betraying the nine whaling ships sunk, three drift netters whales. Now, with international condemnation rammed, one tuna boat rammed, three seal hunts directed at her and Norway, she wants revenge. ended, a sealing fleet blockaded, a Japanese Brundtland's pride has removed any practical dolphin slaughter shut down, illegal whaling concern for Norway's economic interests and activities exposed, driftnets confiscated, wolf hunts reputation. To defend an insignificant industry like disrupted and ended, and on and on. All this, whaling, she is willing to sacrifice both Norway's without hurting anybody. No one was hurt when considerable conservation reputation and the they sunk the ships, so all it was was a destruction economic welfare of her people. of property. The Norwegian Prime Minister does, however, People like him are dedicating their lives to have a major problem with her defence of whaling. preserve and protect the natural world. There are Whaling is illegal by order of the International people all over the world and also right here in the Whaling Commission. The United States is duty city who risk their lives, who choose to not only bound to enforce the economic sanctions against represent but act for nonhuman life. Norway. Former President George Bush notified There has been talk of sustainable development Norway in December 1992 that sanctions would be here. This is a buzzword used by many in industry invoked. Presjdent Bill Clinton is obliged by law to to make their Earth raping look good. follow through. The European Economic Community will not allow entry to Norwegian The very author of sustainable development has products unless Gro abandons her anachronistic no respect for nonhuman life. Prime Minister Gro policies of killing whales. Harlem Brundtland is angry. For years she was known as the great environmentalist. She has been So it is hard to view the sustainable development lauded as the green queen and the mother of as useful. I do not like to criticize people too much environmental concern. The author of Our personally, but what is sustainable about killing Common Future has unfortunately sold out. No whales? Sure, there are lots of them, but what they longer the U.N.'s ecological sweetheart, she has are going for is delicacy meats for Japanese cast aside her Earth mother image to become the restaurants and other restaurants all over the equivalent of a trusted mother turned child world. So if that is viewed as sustainable molester, just another opportunistic politician. development, then I do not like sustainable development. Brundtland has pointed her finger at Brazil and criticized them for logging. She has been critical of When two members of Friends of Oak Hammock the United States on the issue of biodiversity. She Marsh went to Toronto for a conference-! think it is the author of a judgmental report in which she was last year, and maybe it was not Toronto, but I condemned cultural practices in a score of nations have not checked up on this because I have not because of their negative impact on the had much time to prepare my brief-a prominent ecosystems. politician came up to them and said, sustainable development means sustained development. In 1991 , she addressed Harvard University Sounds like it to me, but since the Filmon graduates with a strong message that the U.S. government has signed onto this agreement, I will should use sanctions to enforce international hold you to it. conservation agreements, but now that Norwegian whaling policy is criticized, Brundtland is crying This is a pamphlet put out by the foul. She has even appealed to Vice President AI federal-provincial parks council of ministers. I Gore to have Norway exempted from the same believe your office signed onto this. Here is the July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 379

Manitoba seal right here saying you guys did that. act. I do not see that. I think that was just kind of Our parks showcase for sustainable development. silliness on your part. Principles to guide park management. The Like the logger who spoke yesterday said and following principles are intended to guide park also people who spoke today who were from Pine management philosophy and to provide a basis for Falls and were interested in this area, these integrating parks into regional and national economic opportunities, do not call it a park if you strategies for achieving sustainable development. are going to login it. Call it a multiuse area. That is They have been approved by the ministers something I can agree to with them. We might not responsible for national, provincial and territorial agree on a lot of things, but at least I can find parks. By putting these principles into action, common ground on that. So if you are going to Canada's park system can respond to rising change that, that is probably a good thing, but then, environmental awareness and fulfill the special role of course, there is the problem of preserving the envisioned for parks in promoting sustainable natural areas that are there. So there is something development. we can agree on. It goes through a list of different sections like I guess I cannot ask questions again. I can just preservation, conservation, public information and pose them, and maybe you can answer them after education, public participation, adjacent land use, I have my say. [interjection) Yeah, that is what I and the one I want to mention here is economic mentioned before. Explain to me, like you said the development. Parklands provide an economic other night, how 80 to 90 percent of Manitoba will benefit by encouraging tourism and meeting the be preserved under this new bill. If that was just demand of outdoor recreation. Appropriate talking, just say so and I will ignore it, but if you are economic opportunities will be explored wherever really serious aboutthat, please explain to me how possible as a means of incorporating parks into that will bepreserved. regional economic diversification initiatives. I am with a group called the Defenders of Do you, Harry Enns, consider logging and mining Nopiming, but I speak as a private citizen. We have appropriate economic opportunities for parks? been holding demonstrations to try to bring this Yes? Let the recordshow that he agreed. issue to the public. Every single person whom I Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Nickarz, this is not a time for have talked to believes there should not be logging you to be puttingquestions to the committee.When in parks. Most did not even know that logging was you are finished your presentation, the committee there in the first place. I guess it pays to keep the may want to ask you some questions, but if you public ignorant. I wish we had the resources and want to put your questions on the record, that is the money to inform people, as you do, or to have- fine. I just wanted to advise you that you have * (2050) approximately two minutes left. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Nickarz, you are beyond the Mr. Nl ckarz: Well, I will do my best to get done. 20 minutes at this time, but I will allow you another He agreed that appropriate economic minute to wrap up. opportunities are logging and mining in parks. If so, Mr. Nlckarz: I found a perfect definition of a park. It what is not appropriate for parks, nuclear bomb is by a conservation biologist, Dave Foreman. You testing? You, sir, have a very distorted view of what might recognize his name from other places, but preservation is. [interjection] Oh well, that will not this is his definition of a park-needless to say, be happening in parks. there would not be any economic activity inside the Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the park, no industrial activity: committee to-[interjection) You are out of order, Not all wilderness areas should be managed for Mr. Minister. Could I ask the members of the the gentle, back country experience. Not all partsof committee to refrain from the debate at this time? individual wilderness areas should be managed to Mr. Nickarz, to continue, please. provide equal ease of travel or safety. What is Mr. Nlckarz: I do not think you have the means needed is a range of management options from under law of preserving areas. You mentioned a good trails and all the trimmings in places like couple last night, I believe, that 90 percent or 80 Yosemite and the Sandina Mountains to something percent of Manitoba would be preserved under this approximating pre-European America in more 380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July21 , 1993

remote and less frequented areas. The wild end of There are many ways that government and the spectrum would be true wilderness where a industry destroy natural areas- hiker is utterly on his or her own. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Nickarz, the A management scheme for these primeval areas committee had previously agreed that we would would include several bold rules. No new trails have a 20-minute time limit. [interjection] The mike would be constructed. No signs, no facilities, like no is off. A five-minute recess. docks or boat launches, no maps and the agency The committee recessed at 8:56 p.m. responsible for maps would not make maps for the area, no guides, hunting should be abolished from the parks-1 do not see how you can hunt unless you have a knife and kill the animal yourself; After Recess otherwise, it is just a game, a sport-no modern equipment. Obviously there should be no ATVs, The committee resumed at 9:01 p.m. all-terrain vehicles, or anything of the sort. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Roy Vickery, Willi Freund, That should be what a park is, a primeval Frank Reimer, Sheri Reimer, Doreen Kessler, Gary wilderness area. That should be addressed Swatter, Alan Black, Brigette Hebert, Joyce S. somewhere in the legislation if at all possible, Clarl

I think that there is a growing notion that the control of nuclear experimentation. Similar control technosphere can take over the biosphere. We are in biotechnology could prove equally important. inclined to have the faith that biotechnology, the On the matterof this parks act, we must make a manipulation of genes both within and between much better attempt to hold onto and indeed species, under the presumption that we can control restore if possible our representative ecosystems. I its output, can substitute for and improve the might also add that we need much greater effort on products of normal evolution. This faith has been the part of the province to understand what we enhanced by enormous success in plant and have in Manitoba. If you look at the data, you will animal breeding and seen in the rapid expansion of findthat we are something like 70 percent short of its successful gene therapy in humans. knowing what our own stock of life forms are. This We also seem to believe that new technologies means that commercial development, exploitation if will offset all that we do not know nor have yet to you will, must be scrutinized with great care. When discover. I will not quote again what taxonomists the chips are down as they might be for our tell us about the lack of information about the life successors, short-term financial gain for the forms which sustain us or from which we can obtain fashionable present will be nothing against products to heal us or to entertain us. systems of life which are lost to us forever. Very selfishly, the failure to find out what we have I will now go on to the brief. This brief repeats got in Manitoba and the blind wrecking of our some of the points made already, particularly in the ecosystems destroy opportunitiesdirectly related to commentary made by the Canadian Bar human health in the future. So all is not positive. All Association, the general comment that follows. is not fine and bright, and there is great danger. On The first one. If the provincial parks cannot be the one hand we are barely scratching the surface relied upon to assist in meeting Manitoba's of the task of regulating the products of genetic contribution to the Endangered SpacesCampaign, engineering. we have little chance of definingsufficient areas to Commercial interests looking for profitable meet, by the year 2000, the 12 percent of our land products have caught the ball, so we have surface that is representative of the province's tomatoes with flounder genes-until flounders run natural regions protected from logging, mining and out, of course-pigs with human genes, cows hydro development and other activities which under the improvement produced by bovine growth adversely affect habitat. hormone and so on. I can ask the minister how he The second point. This bill seems to retreat, to feels that a 15 percent increase in dairy milk ease development which is foreign to the traditional production, what it will do for the market in purposes of parks. We do this in the face of the Manitoba or anywhere else in this country for that principles of sustainable development, specifically matter. those dealing with care taking, No. 2, and No. 5, At the present time there is great risk that new life which we say will maintain ecosystem processes forms will be released-and this is the central and diversity to which the province is committed. point-into the environment without an evaluation I might say as a comment on the bill: it could do a of the ecological consequences. On the other much better job on defining sustainable hand, with great arrogance, we are busy tearing development and either stating the principles that down the life support systems which sustain us and you are referring to or referring to where they are in which have been in place up until the moment. fact stated. All you do is talk about the principles of So we ask ourselves, what can a small province sustainable development, and they are lost in the do about this risk? There are two things, one of breeze in the bill. which is wholly relevant to this parks act. On the Third point. Government is not always bound to matter of genetic engineering and direct listen to the loudest noises and seek the quickest intervention into the cells of living organisms, financial returns. The public could be led, Mr. Manitoba must make the best case it can in support Minister, in this revision of the parks act towards a of regulations now being developed under the greater recognition that our scarce natural Canadian Environmental Protection Act. We have resources include endemic life forms. Their future no difficulty rationalizing very tight government commercial value to Manitobans cannot be 382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

projected, but at least we can ensure that some are today, he is perhaps contemplating changing the left for our children. nature of parks, the boundaries of parks, and Compared with other jurisdictions, we are least abstracting perhaps from them those places which protective of biodiversity in Manitoba. A major are logged and so on, then in-depth consultation is purpose of this biU seems to be the rationalization very necessary. of mining and the anticipation of mining demands. It Under Sections 7(2)(a) and 7(3)(a), sharpen up is hard to believe that the viability of eitherthe pulp the definition of wilderness to come close to the and paper industry or the mining industry depends definition under the U.S. wilderness act of 1964, upon the use of this small percentage of land which is repeated in many documents. designated for parks purposes. Sometimes, I might Under 7(2)(b), elaborate resource uses such that add, I think that if it were a little more difficult to they are not large scale commercial and they are abstract primary resources in Canada, we would be compatible with and do not compromise the values more adept and more efficient in making more of in the park. what we have. We would convert more and waste less. Under 7(3)(f), after "category", add, unless wilderness is designated under 7(2)(a) and 7(3)(a). Now some specific comments on the bill. In the Those generally deal with access, and to have a preamble to the his in bill-1 suppose you have t category which is absolutely specific to access front of you--delete "and appropriate economic seems to me to be self-defeating. opportunities are provided." I will read these off, and you can note them as we go along. The second Under 9, see the note under 5 above. point, define •appropriate economic opportunities" Under 9(2), after the words "this act," add "and if they are retained in the bill and add definitions of the assessment includes the proposed regulation." "biodiversity" and "ecosystem." Define the I believe that if you are going to do the form of "principles of sustainable development" or refer to consultation ,which is contemplated under this their source, as I have mentioned before. section in which you are in effect substituting * (2110) environmental impact assessment process for the regulation review process-and you could put the Under Section 2(b) remove "other than provincial regulation right in with the assessment documents roads and provincial trunk highways." Control of the and do the two things together. Why not do it that land space in parks should be by the Parks way? It saves one round, and the regulation then is authority. There has always been good or well known to the public. reasonable co-operation between Parks and the Department of Highways. However, when the chips Under 11, the requirement to develop a are down, I am quite certain the Parks people management plan has no time frame. I believe the should be running the show, not Department of parks people should lay on a time frame of some Highways. sortfor their management plans. Provisions should be made for public consultation with management Under Section 5, remove item 5(d) and add 5(d) plans, and management plans should have the "to promote understanding of sustainable force of regulation, and any major changes should development and the importance to human be done by regulation after public consultation. I well-being of protecting adequate areas of believe that if major changes are contemplated for Manitoba which are unique or representative of the a park, automatically this should be a class 2 under province's ecosystems." the environmental impact assessment act. Without No. 5(e), add this one too: "To ensure that any reference, the public can say, do you think we protective management of provincial park lands should go to public hearings? No, there should be a takes priority over all resource uses and that law laid down that if, indeed, you are going to make supportive development (including roads, utilities, a major change in a park, then you classify it as a 2 resort services, resource harvesting, et cetera) is and go to consultation, automatically, without compatible with park use and values as described reference to anybody. under this act." Last note, at the very end of this, is on cottages. Under Section 6, provide for consultation on the I have always believed this. Cottaging in provincial system's plan. If, as the minister mentioned earlier parks is a privilege. I have realized that as a July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 383

privilege coming from way back in many cases. What I have heard a number of occasions today There are no shortages of opportunityoutside park is you take a blob of somewhere in the North where boundaries for cottage development. While the very few people are present, and you say, okay, effect of inhibiting further cottage development knock out 12 percent, and then you have met the within the park is to raise prices and inhibit entry to Endangered Spaces Campaign. That is nonsense the market of less wealthy Manitobans, such a ban and that was the kind of tone which I caught from should be clearly stated in the act. This will be many people. consistentwith purposes under the act and help to However, I will go halfwaywith you, Mr. Minister. ensure perpetual access of the public at large to I am pleased that there is a consciousness there. I recreational amenities. Thank you, gentlemen and do not think people have thought the ladies. consciousness through, and I believe Alison Elliott Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate Mr. will elaborate it much further after me. I am not an expert in this field. I am not trying to get offthe hook Carter's remarks. I, of course, recognize Mr. Carter though. has many, many years of service to both the federal government and the provincial government and, Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate Mr. indeed, as a former deputy minister, I believe, of Carter's remarks. I tend to agree that that may well the department I now have the privilege of being be a fuzzy concept on the part of some, but minister for. certainlynot on the part of thegove rnment that has committed itself to meeting that objective. I ask you this simple question, Mr. Carter. You have attended a good portion of the hearings since We fully appreciate and understand that it is from they have started. I submit to you and I suggest to the differentzones of Manitoba that the 12 percent Of you that-and I am referring spe9ifically to your has to indeed come. course, that will be more difficult to do, particularly in some of the southern concern about the province's ability to achieve the regions of the province where the room to 12 percent-and that is not a magic figure, maneuver on the part of government, that is on hopefully; it could be more-a 12 percent figure of private lands and so forth, is considerably more a land mass of the province in its different difficult. ecological zones to meet the Endangered Spaces Program. Again, Mr. Carter, I am calling upon your intimate background and knowledge of the Manitoba Has it not struck you as encouraging to have system and particularly the Departmentof Natural throughout these hearings people representing the Resources and the Parks Branch. You surely are forestry industry, big commercial firms representing aware that the parks system, as presently the mining industry, ordinary people from Pine Falls constituted, can make a significant contribution to and other places, all of them? I do not think I have reaching that endangered spaces goal target but heard anybody take issue with the concept of only a contribution. setting aside 12 percent of Manitoba's land mass * (2120) for the preservation of what we all recognize, have come to recognize, have not always recognized, to I believe maybe, if we so use Bill 41 to put all of be important. the 3.5 million acres of provincial parklands into a mode that would meet the criteria for the World I submit to you, sir, that not so long ago, 1 0 and Wildlife Fund, that would add, I am told, I think I 15 years ago, that would not have occurred at a used the figure earlier in the IT!orning, perhaps 1.3 meeting like this, so do you not take some or 1 .5 percent, 2 percent, 1 percent, 2 percent. I encouragement from what you have heard during see Elliott is shaking her head, so I will wait for her the course of these meetings from these very to get up on the stand. different types of presenters? The point I am making is it will need, obviously in Mr.Cart er: I am delighted, frankly. Up to that point, my mind and I assume in your mind, other moves I agree with you. I do not think the concept is very and other tools, if you like, of government, if we are well understood, and I do not think it is understood supposed to reach that goal. In other words, the that we need representation of each natural region amount of acreage simply is not available nor of Manitoba. necessarily in the appropriate zones to meet the 384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

targets simply by using The Park Lands Act or Bill Mr. Carter: In fairness, Mr. Ashton, I am not up to 41 to do that. snuff. I have not had a conversation with Gordon, Mr. Carter: What astonishes me, I think, is that for example, about this matter. He may have about despite Mr. Rlmon's agreement to the 12 percent 15 new places and proposals for the minister in his figure, we have nothing in the public eye yet which back pocket. I do not know this. I can only tell you shows a sense of urgency to get on with this job. If what I perceive externally, so to speak. I have done anything in this brief, I should surely Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Carter, I am on the record as have tried to show the urgency of doing something saying that I do not believe there should be any about things. resource extraction in our parks. Where are the demonstrations of the 12 percent Certainly, there should be no new resource figure, the acquisitions, the negotiations and so on? extraction in any of our parks, but we know there is I know that we may well be relying upon a new resource extraction going on now by a number of national park, Churchill, coming on and so on. That industries. How would you deal with those? is not Manitoba. It is part of the 12 percent, and I will Mr. Carter: This is strange for me to say, but I like agree to it, but it does not equate with the federal the idea of taking a rather careful look at our thrust. I want to see you tomorrow finding out what present park boundaries, finding out what should you have, pushing the Parks Branch like hell, be given a very high level of preservation and pushing the people to understand and the absolutely made sacrosanct for the purposes of universities to identify these places and get at them ecosystem preservation. tomorrow or yesterday, whatever you have done. Let us examine the parks as they are utilized at Mr. Chairperson: I would just like to advise the the moment and find out if we have enough and committee, there are only a couple of minutes left. what other space we require in order to meet the Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairperson, I will defer to members criteria for reptesentation of each of our regions. In of the opposition to have some further questions. other words, it needs a re-examination of the parks system. Some things can be tucked away into I just indicate to you, I need to get on with the logging, into other uses, recreational components, passing of Bill 41 so I can demonstrate that to you, providing multiple use, what have you, but what I Mr. Carter. want out of it in the end is a substantial contribution Mr. Carter: Okay. to the Endangered Spaces Campaign. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, my question actually Mrs. Carstalrs: Very briefly, and I do not want to is also on the 12 percent. I was rather surprised by put words in your mouth, but are you saying that it the minister's last comments. might be possible to take the present configuration I just note from the brief that you mentioned the of parks and take some of the land out of that park, fact that only 0.6 percent meets the campaign add other lands to that park, end up with your 12 criteria, the campaign meaning the Endangered percent and honour commitments that have been long-term? Spaces Campaign. Of course, it was also an election campaign promise. I find the use of the Mr. Carter: Or create ecological reserves or other campaign criteria to be sort of an interesting parks altogether, yes. double-edged sword. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): I want to thank I know you are saying you are not an expert on Mr. Carter for his presentation and use the that level, but I know your expertise generally and opportunity to ask him a question because of his your concern in this area. You are saying this experience within the department. government really has not moved beyond the The question I want to ask Mr. Carter is: When verbal commitment in any significant shape yet to the existing parks configurations that we have in 12 reach the percent. I note we are dealing with a the province-! would not call it a system, but the commitment that was supposed to be put in place parks, the way that we have them now in the by the end of this decade. province, how do they fare in protecting significant You are saying there has not been the move yet areas that are representative of endangered habitat beyond the verbal move? or significant habitat? July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 385

Some people have suggested to me that there Mr. Joe Melnick. Mr. Melnick, your written was no thought to that when these parks were put presentation is being handed out. You can go in place, that they were sortof just plunked down. I ahead. wonder if you could clarify that. Mr. Joe Melnick (Private Citizen): I kind of Mr. Carter: I was partof the drive, you will probably scribbled this down on a piece of paper in my recall, in the late '50s, '60s, to create parks in handwriting so I hope that-well, if you cannot read Saskatchewan. Manitoba was doing the same it, I guess you will not be much better offthan I am, thing under Walter Danyluk at that time. The because sometimes I cannot read it. minister would know Walter very well. * (2130) We had one prime and absolute purpose. We Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, my wanted recreation opportunity, and recreation was name is Joe Melnick, and I would like to express the big sign. People wanted outdoor recreation and my concern on Bill 41 . camping, whatever, and they needed it or they thought they needed it near water. In very harsh In September 1989, I purchased a cottage and terms, we went for water and recreational the property at Lot 12 Steep Rock Road at Nutimik opportunity and places to camp beside the water Lake. The reason being I am a born and raised and places to sort of get onto hiking trails, Manitoban, so is my wife, Estelle. We are nearing wherever. We gave relatively little thought to middle age and wanted a place in Manitoba parks ecology in its purest sense. We gave a great deal of to relax, enjoy our province's nature. Lot 12 Steep thought to the impressions which park planners at Rock Road was the perfecttype of place. the time had about landscape and what would In 1990 we paid the fee of $145. We did not think make a nice setting for having a park. it was exactly exorbitant, thinking that it was a legal Those were the kinds of things. They were cost to own the property in the park. After generally located in forest reserves. We abstracted researching and inquiring, we discovered that this the parks then in Manitoba from the forest reserves. was not quite so. After consulting with our attorney, I hope that answers your question. we were advised that we should not pay this fee until such time that there is a legal and binding law Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your to do so. So we followed the attorney's advice and presentation, Mr. Carter. I know there were a said okay, and we have not paid the fee since number of other questions the members would 1990. We kind of suggest that maybe we are owed have liked to have asked you, but seeing as you did $145 and should be refunded. go beyond the time, we just did not have the Since Bill 41 suggests that the fee is to be opportunity this evening. retroactive, that concerns us and suggeststhat the Mr. Nlckarz: Could I make a point of order? government can introduce law and then wants the Mr. Chairperson: No, there is no point of order, citizens to come back and pay before the law is Mr. Nickarz. actually in effect. This does not sound very democratic to these Canadians. We therefore say Mr. Nlckarz: I must say that the honourable and ask that this part of Bill 41 should actually be minister can filibuster much- dropped. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. There is another reason for the request. There At this time, I would like to inform the committee are people who owned private land in the previous that it has been brought to my attention that Mr. years and have since sold these lands, sold these Melnick will not be able to attend. He has been here properties.They have never paid the fee, and these for all the meetings up to date, No. 152, and he has people probably never will pay the fee. Mr. Minister, to leave very shortly before ten o'clock. He has I suggest to you that there should be some sense of work commitments. We were wondering-we fairness here since the other folks who actually made an exception to the other one-ifMr. Melnick walked away with their money jingling in their could make the presentation at this time. pockets, they are not going to be required to pay this fee. In fact, I do not see how you could force An Honourable Member: Agreed. them. So I would suggest that you drop the Mr. Chairperson: Agreed. retroactive and give us all the same kind of a 386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

fairness and say, start from wherever you are something that is plush someplace else. I am just starting now. A retroactive fee to me would just feel taking partsof this letter as you well know. I can tell like an extra tax grab, if you will. That is the first you that because I guess you lost everything here, concern on this. but I am just taking parts and explaining each part, and I hope you can bear with me. The next concern is we do not disagree with service fee taxes or taxes. We have paid taxes all We still believe that partsof the park should have our lives. I have anyhow. Nobody has given me a representative in each area of the park where anything in my lifetime, and I have been working they can assess the needs of each area and then since I was 16 years old. We agree that we have maybe assess fees accordingly to each area's paid taxes all our lives, and we do not dispute the needs. A good example is Steep Rock Road, fact that taxes are very necessary. We do dispute Houk's (phonetic] Point, all four roads-! am trying the fact that we should pay taxes without being to remember. Birch Bay, there never was a represented in some way. We also dispute paying garbage bin there as long as I have been there in taxes for services that we might not want, per se. the four years I have owned the property. In fact, when I paid my $145 I requested in a letter to the In tact, I will ad lib a bit again. We like our little Parks board wondering where was our garbage spot in the park. We like the uniqueness. We like to bin? I never even got an answer. I guess that is groom it, and we do not want any more service fees what you call service fees. They did not even at all really. We want the wilderness part of it. If we answer my letter. wanted streets and lights and sidewalks, as it suggests in part of this bill, well, we could just stay I do not mind paying for a service fee. In fact, Mr. in the city. We could get the squealing tires and the Minister, I would sooner see you say it is a tax smog and the swearing out in the street at the same simply because taxes are not GST'd and service time. fees definitely are, so your cousins in Ottawa probably can grab some more money oft of us, and We have a beautiful little community on Steep that I do not really like. As far as I know, anything Rock Road. We work together. We do our own that is called fees is GST taxed. I do not know if I work. In fact, I understand that the road is actually am right or not, but I think I am. So maybe if you Crown property, but we have no problem looking charge us something, maybe you should call it a after that road. We have done it for years according tax and save us the GST. to the people that I have talked to there and even the old gentleman that I bought the cottage from . Private land owners are proud people. We look They have no problem at all. We do not want to afterour property,we groom it. In fact, Mr. Minister, burden any Manitoba taxpayer with our road. We if you go to this particular partof the park, you will would just as soon look afterit ourselves, thank you even find the highway grass is groomed by us at no very much. cost to the Manitoba taxpayer of course, but it is groomed by us. If you look down the highway at To have the minister of the Crown impose a form some of the leased properties, you will see grass of tax without consultation with the people who pay as tall as-you cannot even see the deer in it. They the tax, and the example is, do the people want the run out in front of you in the dark. You are liable to particular service. Does this particular service run into them. You will not find deer running out of benefit one park or another park? We, therefore, our roadside. It is groomed, it is beautiful. would prefer the fee would be related to the needs of the park area that the services are required. The So the reason I am presenting this is because I park that does not require the particular services realize there are costs in the park. My idea of costs should not be required to pay these type of fees. where we are, we are using the garbage dump, and I agree maybe we should be paying for something. So, in other words, if you are going to blanket a I guess they do throw some gas on the pile of fee across the province for all parks, you would rubble and burn it, so that costs money. think Hecla Island probably is a plush resort and they would probably be more expensive to look We do use the highway to get to our property, but after than, say, Nutimik Lake. I cannot see why Mr. Minister, I know I pay gas tax. My car runs on people like us in Nutimik Lake who love wilderness about 15 miles to a gallon, and if you times that by and not plush places should have to pay for the time I get to the park and back, I have paid quite July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 387

a bit to get to that park already. I also pay a going through the due course that is required to registration fee on my car, and I believe as a execute liens, this suggests to us that the minister Manitoban I am entitled to drive down any highway in charge leapfrogged the process of Jaw which is in this province on my gas taxes and my vehicle not available to ordinary Manitobans. This lien taxes, and that includes 307. against properties, that is, fees were imposed that the courts have already declared illegal, as • (2140) government apparently does not recognize court I do not know what else I am going to get from the rulings. parks act besides-no, we do not even get the s-a patrols. I have been there since September of '89. I In trying to end thi nd I am going to try to end have seen the parks patrol three times. One time it as soon as possible-1 would like to say to the they went to a cottage believing the man was minister that I think the government should follow fishing illegally. The next time an elderly lady died the same rules as us ordinary Manitobans have to just below the rock at the cottage, and I guess she follow. I cannot go and walk onto somebody's was entitled to Park's attention there. Everybody propertyand say, I can take that, or I can take this. I am legally that dies has to have attention. I have to go to court to find out if entitled, and I think the government should do the (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Acting Chairperson, in same. the Chair) Another thing, Mr. Minister, I would request that The third time, I think it was a complaint about the open-endedness of park fees should not be. somebody complaining about me trapping There should be some kind of a consultation with woodchucks on my property, which was a vendetta the people who are going to pay the fees, because thing. That is the only time, butthey never actually open-end fees will only chase people like me, who come down the park road to see if somebody was · are pretty decent Manitobans who look afterthings breaking into it, which gives me another reason in the park, or try to, and do not cause the parks why should I pay for that service fee? I never see people any grief, to not own property in the park the guys. They do not care if my property was because we will not afford it. I do not even make carried away next week. They would not even know half the money you make, so obviously I would not it was gone. afford it. But we at Steep Rock Road look after each In ending it appears-this is the way I will end other's property. We come down, we look at each this story or this thing-thegovernment forgot that other's property, and it is a community thing. We they were elected by the people of this province, make sure that each other's property is well and we are going to vote again. If this is the way the protected, and we like it that way, Mr. Minister, province is going to be governed, if you guys get because it does not cost the taxpayers any money re-elected, I guess, well, retirement is not too far, that way. Mr. Minister, and British Columbia is gettingto look We do not want the Parks people. They can look better everyday. I have retirement funds that I have afterthe parks up there on the hill where they throw to spend someplace, and I am likely not going to garbage everywhere and let the bears come into spend it in my own province if I manage to get their campsite and eat all their food and haul it all kicked out of my own little park. over the park and then cause trouble, so the Parks I thank you for your attention, and that is all I people can run all over the place catching bears, have to say. Thank you very much. costing money to taxpayers. We do not have that The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank problem on Steep Rock Road. So I will not bore you you for your presentation, Mr. Melnick. with any of those details any more. But in other words, do not give us fees that we do not really John Buchanan? Alison Elliott? want, but charge us a nominal rate and we will Ms. Alison Elliott (Private Citizen): Good gladly pay it. evening, Madam Chairperson, honourable The last concern. Bill 41 gives the Minister of members. Natural Resources unlimited powers whereas the I have to admit, over the last day or so, I have minister has the power to sign a certificate to wondered if I have been in the right room, whether support a lien on any individual's property. Well, I have been debating or waiting to present a brief 388 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

on The Provincial Parks and Consequential for changes to be made to this bill, specifically with Amendments Act or the endangered spaces act. I respect to resource extraction. wish to point out that there is a separation between More importantly, I heard many things that the the two, that endangered spaces, the criteria, the Endangered Spaces Campaign could endorse, goal of endangere9 spaces can be met through a things like a balanced approach to land use number of tools, Parks being one of those tools. planning in Manitoba that includes both resource My comments will address the parks act, and I extraction and protection, public consultation will throw a little endangered spaces stuff in there respecting areas that are nominated for protection, too. avoidance of conflicting areas wherever possible. Although I chair the Manitoba Wilderness A white paper which thoroughly examined the Caucus, which co-ordinates the Endangered issues and which was open to real change and not Spaces Campaign in Manitoba, I am presenting merely superficial amendments could have been this brief as a private citizen, not because the the focus of a productive dialogue involving people caucus did not reach a collective position regarding from all parts of Manitoba, not just those who had Bill 41, but because holiday schedules did not the time and resources to attend the hearings in permit the vetting of this brief and formal Winnipeg, to gain an understanding of the positions endorsement by caucus members. Various caucus of one another, determine areas where there are member organizations and individuals will be and differences and perhaps, more importantly, have made presentations at these hearings, so determine where there is agreement and their views will be made known to you. opportunity to begin to build bridges connecting the divergent groups. Unlike many of the presenters ahead of me, I am not all that pleased to be here to make this The second reaction might be that the presentation, because I believe this bill has been consultation process has already occurred by introduced prematurely-prematurely because I virtue of the Natural Lands and Special Places believe that given the opportunity for honest, open Strategy workshops. I attended one of these discussion of the issues raised by the groups that workshops and if I recall correctly, the section on have made representation to this committee The Park Lands Act was either not dealt with at all hearing thus far, the consensus may have been or was given such brief mention that it was treated reached on many of these issues, and we could be as insignificant. There was no substantive here celebrating the results of that consensus discussion on what parks should be, what activities should be allowed within their boundaries, what the process rather than confronting one another and various classifications should be, how many there trying to press our points of view onto the should be of each classification, et cetera. Now we committee members. are confronted with a new bill without any of this In my opinion, it would have been preferable for preliminary discussion and consultation amongst the government to have produced a white paper for the interest groups. wide-scale consultation and discussion prior to the I understood the Minister of Natural Resources, drafting of this legislation. Mr. Enns, to say at the committee hearing last Two probable reactions to these statements are evening that the rush to introduce this legislation that we are too far apart to reach consensus, and was precipitated at least in part by the Endangered consultation on parks already took place during the SpacesCampaign and the need to meet the criteria Natural Lands and Special Places workshops. I set by the World Wildlife Fund in order to have would like to take some time to respond to these parks in Manitoba able to count as protected expected reactions. spaces. In the committee hearings last evening and again While the minister is to be commended for this evening, I heard many misconceptions and striving to meet the criteria of the Endangered misunderstandings about the Endangered Spaces Spaces Campaign, a delay of a few months would Campaign that had there been the opportunity to have been preferable to introducing legislation that clarify, may have resulted in greater supportfor the could be interpreted to not meet the criteria at all. campaign objectives and therefore greater support Furthermore, the present act could have been used July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 389

in the interim to sufficientlyprotect any specific park In evaluating Bill 41 , the following questions in Manitoba to meet the criteria of the Endangered arose in my mind which I believe are valid criteria Spaces Campaign through regulation under the against which to measure this proposed act. Is the present act. new legislation an improvement over existing The minister has demonstrated this through the legislation? Does the new legislation give clear recent passing by cabinet of a regulation under The direction and intent, or can it be interpreted in a Wildlife Act, a far more permissive act than the variety of ways? Does its tighten up the existing present Park Lands Act, which gives sufficient legislation? Does the legislation reflect the urgent protection to the Cape Churchill Wildlife need to protect Manitoba's natural heritage, its wild Management Area to meet the Endangered lands, waters and wildlife, as voiced by every Spaces Campaign criteria. minister of environment, parks and wildlife in Canada, both at the provincial and federal levels * (21 50) and demonstrated by their signing in Alymer, My first recommendation to this committee is that Quebec, November 25, 1992, of a statement of Bill 41 be put aside to allow a round of commitment to complete Canada's networks of consultations and information sharing which protected areas, a statement which was developed provides a common information base from which by these same ministers under the chairmanship of discussion about the role of parks in Manitoba can our own Minister of Natural Resources, the proceed. How many Manitobans have read Our Honourable Harry Enns? Common Future? How many understand the In my review of Bill 41 , I came up with the significance of biodiversity to the survival of our following answers. No, this legislation is not an planet Earth? How many understand the potential improvement over the existing legislation. I would impact of climate change on wildlife and what we rather keep the present Park Lands Act. No, this must do today to allow species migration in the legislation does not give clear direction and intent. future? How many know what percentage of Yes, it can be interpreted at both ends of the Manitoba is already preserved, what percentage is spectrum. No, this bill does not reflect the urgent already developed? How many know the need to protect Manitoba's natural heritage. In fact, contribution that forestry, tourism, wildlife viewing it does the opposite. and mining make to the economy of this province? How many have a common understanding of the My brief will demonstrate why I reached these principles of sustainable development? conclusions and will provide suggestions on how Bill 41 could be altered so the answers to the Devoid of the facts, Manitobans can only react to questions I have asked could be a resounding yes. protect their own special interests, rather than making rational, logical decisions based on good (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) information and the interests of all. It is in this Let us begin on page one of Bill 41 with the context that we are being asked to make decisions WHEREASes. This preamble should define about Bill 41 . explicitly what parks are for. lt should encompass a I anticipated that the chances of this committee vision statement that would inspire present and putting aside Bill 41 this evening were pretty slim, future generations to cherish and protect their so I prepared an evaluation of the bill, just in case. natural heritage, a vision statement which reflects the meaning and importance of wilderness and Bill 41 could be interpreted as the most protective wildlife to Canadians, Manito_bans and visitors to legislation to preserve parks in Manitoba, or it could our province. It should include a statement of the be interpreted at the other end of the spectrum as contribution that parks in Manitoba make and will the most permissive legislation, opening parks to make to the preservation of the Earth'sbiodiversity, whole-scale commercial resource extraction. particularly if this bill has been draftedto respond to Therein lies the major weakness of this bill and one the criteria of the Endangered Spaces Campaign. that should send it back to the drafting table. The legislation should be clear in its intent and not Aside from lacking in vision and inspiration, the subject to interpretation, particularly when the difficulty with the preamble as it now stands is that interpretation can vary as widely in scope, as is the neither sustainable development nor the term case with Bill 41. "appropriate economic opportunities" are defined 390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

anywhere in the bill. The role of parks is therefore For example, the definition of natural park allows unclear, whereas No. 1 states that parks play an for resource uses. The minister who leans toward important role in the protection of natural lands, but preservation may interpret this to mean sport that role is not defined. fishing, whereas a more permissive minister may In the document signed by the ministers interpret resource uses to mean commercial responsible for national, provincial and territorial fishing. Which economic opportunity is intended parks in Canada, including Mr. Enns, the traditional under the proposed legislation? The legislation role of Canada's park systems, conservation, should be clear in its intent and purpose and define preservation, tourism, outdoor recreation and appropriate activities that are allowed in each park environmental and cultural education is said to classification. embody the essence of sustainability. This This fourth purpose has, no doubt, been included statement, together with the Principles to Guide to reflect the principles of sustainable development Park Management also contained in this document, as interpreted by this government. How is the is explicit about the role of parks. This statement is performance of any particular park to be measured in accordance with the World Commission on to determine that it meets this purpose? What if no Environment and Development Report, which economic opportunities can be provided by, for states that the prerequisite to sustainable example, a heritage park because the need to development is the preservation of species and protect the contents of that park is so great that their ecosystems. visitors are not allowed? This park would not fulfill one of its primary purposes. My recommendation No. 2 then is to develop a clear definition of the role of parks in Manitoba Recommendation No. 3 is to delete the provision against which the balance of the proposed act of economic opportunities as a purpose of parks, could be referenced. If the role of parks is to Section 5(d)_, economic benefits will certainly preserve biodiversity in Manitoba, it must be made accrue from parks but should be incidental and not very clear to all other interest groups that a primary purpose. Parks should not have to preservation of biodiversity is a prerequisite to defend themselves from development because sustainable development. they are mandated to provide economic opportunities. State clearly that parks are special Preservation of biodiversity is accomplished places and should be treated as such. through the selection of the best representative areas of an ecosystem based on sound scientific Skip over Section 6 for now and move onto criteria, not on common sense, as I have heard this Section 7. In the present legislation there are evening. This means that we cannot take the several categories of parks which are fairly explicit approach of preserving only those lands that are no in their purpose and intent. Bill 41 lists four good to the miners or the loggers or the farmers. classifications plus an other category. The listing in The lands that should be preserved are those that the present act is preferable. best represent the ecosystem and the species We still have a problem with the definition of the found within it and provide for the continuing various classifications of parks. In the regulations survival of these species. Dr. Harvey Williams' under the present Provincial Park Lands Act the paper clearly enunciated these principles last definition of a wilderness park, for example, is very evening, and I will not dwell further on them today. clear, concise and to the point. Wilderness parks We run into the problem of clarity and intent are defined as areas which, through their again in Section 5, Purposes of provincial parks. management and use, will be perpetuated in a The fourth purpose is again subject to primitive state, free of development and accessible interpretation. Nowhere in the proposed act is there only by nonmechanized means. a definition of conforming and nonconforming To really understand what wilderness parks are economic opportunities for each of the park in Bill 41 , one must look in three places: the classifications and land use categories. They can classification section, the land use category be implied, but it depends upon which end of the section, and the land use categories in wilderness spectrum you fall into. parks section. Even after looking in these three July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 391

places, the definition of a wilderness park could be parks legislation is meant to protect theland within interpreted in at least two ways. its boundaries not advocate itsdestruc tion. Wilderness parks could end up being large areas Section 7(3) lists a resource management of a natural region, crisscrossed with roads and category as a land use category in parks. Aside accessible by all manner of motorized traffic. On from the comments in the preceding paragraph, the other hand, they could end up being highly even when read in the context of this bill, this protected areas, encompassing representative category is contrary to the fourth purpose of landscapes of a natural region in a pristine state. It provincial parks, which is to provide economic all depends on the interpretation of the opportunities in accordance with park characteristics describing the wilderness park, classifications. characteristics such as large. What does large Commercial resource development or extraction mean? What is the definition of recreational cannot be done in a manner that does not opportunities that depend on a pristine compromise the main purpose of any of the park environment? Some would say wilderness fishing classifications listed in this bill. Therefore, this in a motorboat, whereas others would say clause should be deleted. Similarly, Section 33(t) canoeing without the prospect of hearing, seeing or should be deleted. smelling a motorized vehicle of any sort. Public consultation should be more extensive Where can access land use categories be than reflected in Bill 41 . I, too, share the concerns established in wilderness parks, and in what expressed by many last evening that public proportionmust a wilderness park be comprised by consultation is restricted to the establishment of the wilderness land use category? All other park regulations. The system planning process, the classifications in Bill 41 are faced with a management planning process and the comparable wide range of interpretations. classification of the various parks should all be Recommendation No. 4 is that all park subject to public consultation. classifications be clearly defined and that The proposed act should also indicate time conforming and nonconforming uses be listed. frames governing the development of the system Furthermore, if parks are to contribute to the plans and management plans for each park. If the preservation of biodiversity in Manitoba, the bill is redrafted, it makes sense to put all of these appropriate park classifications should reflect this. processes together in one section as they all relate to one another. To prevent the fragmentation of wilderness parks and to maintain their integrity as wilderness parks, The establishment of park reserves is a welcome Section 7(4) should be deleted. addition to legislation governing provincial parklands. This is a valuable tool which can place * (2200) restrictions on land use in a park candidate area Some have said that the natural park without foreclosing future land use options. It classification be renamed a resource reserve or a provides time to study the candidate area and multiuse park. If land within a park is managed in ensure that the best possible site is chosen for park the same manner as land outside the park status. boundaries, why create a park in the first place? Legislation that is introduced to replace an The Clean Environment Commission wrestled with existing act should improve upon that act, should this in its review of the Abitibi-Price Inc. FML No. 1 tighten the wording and clearly communicate the Forest Resource Management Plan and concluded intent. Bill 41 does not do any of these things. The that activities within a park should be consistent way in which Bill 41 is written creates an with the public image of parks as protected areas, environment for the government of the day to free from resource extraction and managed exercise royal dispensing power in favour of differently than the land outside their boundaries. choice. Today power may be exercised in favour of A resource use or multiuse park is a protection, tomorrow in favour of commercial contradiction in terms. Carried to its logical end, we resource development or extraction. should also create industrial parks, car parks, air Bill 41 does not reflect the good intentions of this parks under this legislation. We do not because government, as indicated by its various 392 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

commitments and the documents signed by the which I have appended as Appendix A to this brief. very minister that has introduced this legislation, I believe the committee members will find these commitments such as the endorsement of the recommendations extremely valuable as they Endangered Spaces Campaign and the principles review the merits of Bill 41 . of sustainable development defined in Our Now, to conclude, in 1981 , at a public forum Common Future, and documents such as the sponsored by the Manitoba Environmental Council, Statement of Commitment to Complete Canada's the then Parks Director,Mr. H. Dennis Moffat, said Networks of Protected Areas, the Wildlife Policy for that, and I quote: "It's unlikely that those Canada, Sustainable Development - A Special responsible for setting aside of reserves in Role for National,Provi ncial and Territorial Parks. Manitoba at the tum of the century fully appreciated In my opinion, Bill 41 leaves too much to the the service they were doing for us and for future discretion or the whim of whoever holds the power generations. We can only hope that we have the at any particular time and does not clearly foresight and the dedication to stewardship of our enunciate the principles that are so well presented resources to ensure that generations yet to come in the documents referred to. will have the same opportunitieswe do." Before I close, I wish to read from a study of the Let us stop for a moment and imagine what it Ontario Provincial Parks Act prepared by Paul would be like if our forefathers and mothers had not Eagles of the University of Waterloo in 1984 for set aside the reserves of which Mr. Moffatspeaks. consideration by the Ontario government in Let us also imagine what our province would look revising its Provincial Parks Act. The study lists six like if the generations before us had considered the principles which the University of Waterloo felt grasslands and marshes as worthyof protection as should underlie any revisions to the Ontario they did our lakes and forested areas. If they had, Provincial Parks Act. I wish to read them because we would not today be faced with the immense they so aptly summarize my comments with challenge of preserving representative areas in six respect to Bill 41 and I believe they will assist in of our 12 natural regions where wilderness is revising this bill. already extinct. The principles to which themanagers of parkland Let us hope that our efforts respecting our are committed must be clearly articulated and provincial parks garner the same sentiments from available to the public. future generations as those expressed by Mr. To be effective in creating effective Moffat and that we have the leadership and countervailing pressure to destructive pressures, fortitude to ensure that they do. these principles must be reduced to a form which Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms. will have a high degree of moral persuasion and Elliott, for your presentation. permanence. Ron Hayes. Decisions affecting the planning and management of parkland or its loss must be Ms. Elliott: You do not want to ask me any subjected as a matterof right to public participation questions? andscrutiny. Mr. Chairperson: I am sorry, you were beyond the The onus of proving the necessity oftheir actions 20 minutes. must be shifted from those who wish to preserve Ms. Elliott: Oh, sorry. Did I take that long? I parkland to those who wish to destroy it. apologize. Those public bodies charged with holding and Mr. Chairperson: Twenty-three minutes. managing parkland must have a duty to preserve it. Ron Hayes. Fern Pitre. Paul Nagerl. Do you have This dutymust be enforceable by any member of a writtenpresentat ion? the public. Mr. Paul Nagerl (on behalf of D. James I will not read, but I will leave you with 28 Robertson, Falconbrl dge Limited): Yes, I do. recommendations contained in this same study which were submitted for consideration in the Mr. Chairperson: The Clerk will distribute it. Go revision of the Ontario Provincial Parks Act and ahead. July �1 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 393

Mr. Nagerl: Good evening. My name is Paul be discovered and mineral resources will become Nagerl. I am a Falconbridge geologist and have exhausted as mines are depleted. been working in Manitoba for the past five years. I Canada is losing its dominance as a world leader am presenting this brief on behalf of Jamie in mining because of insufficient investment in Robertson, our regional exploration manager for exploration and development. Our base metal western Canada, who was unable to be here today. reserves have dropped rapidly in the past 1 0 years We wish to thank you for this opportunity to present and this trend will continue unless new mines are our comments regarding Bill 41 . developed. The Canadian mineral industry is not First, I would like to tell you what we like about spending enough on exploration to replace those the proposed new parks act. We are pleased that it reserves. This is especially true in Manitoba where incorporates the concept of sustainable exploration expenditures have steadily declined development, that one of the purposes of the park over the past six years to a level of only $25 million is to provide economic opportunities, that the public in 1991 . Instead of encouraging the mineral will be consulted and advice sought from other industry to carry out more exploration, authorities such as Manitoba Energy and Mines governments across Canada are putting up more before Crown lands are designated a park and and more hurdles. Restrictions on access to land classified under various categories and there is for exploration is becoming a major deterrent and sufficient time to assess this input and that an area this could seriously impede the discovery of new within a park can be designated a resource mines. management category. * (2210) What we do not like about Bill 41 is that it Exploration needs as wide a land base as proposes that mining will be banned in wilderness possible to be successful in discovering new parks and in areas of parks designated wilderness orebodies. Typically, only one claim in 25,000 category, back-country category and heritage becomes a mine. lncreasing the area of exploration category. increases our chances to discover new mines. As We are concerned that once parks are the available land base in Canada becomes more designated in these categories, it will be very and more restricted, the chance of finding new difficult or impossible to change its classification in mines becomes smaller and smaller. This in turn the future. We are most concerned with the increases risk for investors to the point where they possible application of this act. We 'understand the will they no longer commit the necessary funds to need to protect some rare and endangered places, make exploration successful. providing that these are unique and kept to minimal We do not need to exclude mining and size. However, it does not make sense to close off exploration from our provincial parks. The Mining large areas of our province to mining. An Association of Canada has adopted a very strict undiscovered world-class mineral deposit may be environmental policy for exploration and mining. located in a provincial park. If you prohibit mining, Our exploration group has developed strict no exploration will be conducted, the deposit will environmental guidelines and procedures that are never be found and the province will lose followed in all our field programs. Exploration can substantial economic benefits and local be carried out without leaving any lasting trace. employment. Any geologist knows how difficult it is to find drill For the concept of sustainable development to hole set-ups and survey lines more than 1 0 years be viable in the mining industry, there needs to be a old because they are overgrown. Advances in high level of continual exploration and mine airborne geophysical techniques allow us to do development. On a regional scale, one can minimal ground geophysics before drilling targets, consider mineral deposits to be a renewable which means fewer grid lines need to be prepared resource so long as sufficient exploration leads to for ground surveys. Exploration does not have an the discovery of new deposits. The average cost impact on the environment and should not be today to discover a new economic mineral deposit excluded from parks. is $80 million, a high-risk investment for the mineral industry that needs to be encouraged. If investment Technological advances in exploration are in exploration is discouraged, new deposits will not allowing us to explore deeper and deeper in areas 394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

not previously explored. For example, the example, the Namew Lake mine covers only one Thompson nickel belt extends from Thompson at square kilometre. least as far as Lake Winnipegosisand probably into The chance of actually discovering a minable the U.S., but south of Ponton it is covered by deposit in any given area is very small, but if it is limestone and other sedimentary rocks of discovered in a park it is to Manitoba's benefit to Paleozoic age. Very little exploration was done in allow it to be developed. Mines can be operated in the past in this part of the belt underlying the parks with only minimal impacton the environment. limestonecove r. The resource management category can be New airborne geophysical technology developed designated to accommodate the small area around in the last 1 0 years has allowed us to better detect amine. mineral targets under the limestone cover. As a We are concerned that a park reserve, as per result, Falconbridge and other exploration groups clause 8(1 )(a) in Bill 41 , can be designated for six are now exploring the Thompson nickel belt as far months without prior consultation. Advice should south as Lake Winnipegosis under up to 220 be sought first from Manitoba Energy and Mines. metres of limestone, and a number of new nickel The bill should include a definition of a park prospects have been recently discovered. reserve, and state that its onlypurpose is to study Further technological advances should open up its suitability for a provincial park. We are also new areas in the future. Canada is the world leader concerned that a park reserve may be renewed in the development of new technology for over and over again for successive five-year exploration and mining. periods. New exploration models andideas also open up One of the keys to achieve a goal of sustainable new areas that have not been explored in the past. development is co-existence. It is possible to An example of this is the current diamond rush in protect ourpark lands through managed land use the Northwest Territories where at least two very without prohibiting exploration and mining. We promising diamonddiscoveries have been made. It believe there is ample room in Manitoba for both is quite likely that Canada will soon be one of the the protection of natural lands and the sensible significant diamond producers in the world. Many development of new mines. We should not need to areas in Canada previously considered low in choose between parks and the wealth generated mineral potential have now been staked for by mines. We can have both. diamonds, and this activity has now spread to To summarize, exploration can be carried out in Manitoba. parks without impact to the environment. Mining It has been suggested that geologists prepare a requires only small amounts of land and so does map of Manitoba showing areas of high and low not threaten the extensive wilderness areas of mineral potential so that new parks do not coincide northern Manitoba. If deposits are discovered in with potential mineral resources. We can show parks, these areas can be designated under the areas that are known to be of high mineral potential resource management category. such as the Thompson nickel belt or the Flin Flon Mining generates considerable wealth for and Snow Lake greenstone belts, but we cannot Manitoba and will continue to do so in the future as say otherareas have low mineral potential. long as there is sufficientexploration encouraged to Foresters can see and counttheir trees, but our replace our reserves. Mure mineral resources cannot be quantified until To attract sufficient investment and be we explore and/or discover them. New successful in discovering new orebodies, the technologies and new ideas will change our targets mineral industry needs as wide a land base as every decade in the future, and those areas may be possible in which to explore. in parks. In conclusion, we support the basic concept of Mining occupies very little land, yet generates Bill 41 , but ask you to considerthe impact of Clause considerable wealth for the province. A total of $1 7(5)(a) which bans mining in wilderness parks and billion in minerals were produced in Manitoba last other parks designated wilderness, backcountry year on only 34 square kilometres, about 6 percent and heritage categories. We request that you of the land used by the city of Winnipeg. As an change this clause to allow mining in these July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 395

categories, subject to appropriate environmental organizations, are so far apart on these issues. I approvals. am wondering if that concerns you and if you have discussed this in your industry or you have some To acknowledge that mining is allowed in parks, ideas of how we are going to start bringing these Section 5 of the bill should state that the purpose of interests together. provincial parks include, to provide economic opportunities including mining. Mr. Nagerl: Yes, it concerns me. Personally, the reason I think we are far apartis because there is a Thank you very much for the opportunity of presenting our concerns to you. misunderstanding of the facts or not all the facts are on the table. Certainly we have different interests. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. My viewpoint is consistent with Falconbridge's and Nagerl. Can you answer a few questions? that is that we can work together. I, personally, Mr. Nagerl : Sure. have a problem with the way the areas are chosen. I think there should be more scientific method Ms.Cerllll: Thank you for your presentation. I have applied. I do not think there has been any diligence. listened to a number of presentations over the last I am talking about specific areas. We have a couple of days from mining industry problem ourselves with a specific area around representatives and associations, and I am concerned by some of the statements that you are William Lake. making. Ms. Cerllll: Just to clarify that, more scientific I am wondering if you or if you know if anyone expertise involved in choosing areas for parks from your company has ever had anyone from the designation and wilderness designation. provincial government or federal government or Mr.Na gerl: Park boundaries. World Wildlife Federation explain the principles of * {2220) sustainable development to you as outlined in the UN Convention, or has explained the purpose and Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Nagerl, I realize the brief was the idea of the Endangered Spaces Campaign. not yours, that you are actually presenting it on behalf of somebody else. One of the areas that Mr. Nagerl: I cannot answer that. I do not know concerns me is that I keep hearing from the mining what other people have listened to. For myself, no industry that they do not have enough land. Since one has specifically explained anything to me. I we only have 2 percent of the entire land mass of have attended some of the sustainable Manitoba in parks, I would have thought 98 percent development meetings. That is ali i can say. was adequate. Obviously, you think I do not have a clear Mr. Nagerl: Parks is not the only thing that restricts understanding of what sustainable development mining from exploration. For instance, Indian land means to you. I have an understanding of what it hold, reserves, all kinds of concerns and of the 98 means to me. percent, currently we cannot explore 98 percent at Ms. Cerllll: Can you explain what kinds of forums once. There are some areas that are more you have been to when you say that you have been favourable, as I mentioned, but who is to say in the to some meetings? Is that something that the future, and that is our concern.Things like the rush government of Manitoba has sponsored? in the Northwest Territories is an example of an Mr. Nagerl: In conjunction with the booklets that area that had low potential according to some came out, we have had meetings at the Fort Garry ratings that other people had developed. The Hotel two years. Hemlo gold mine is the same case, a very low potential, but we can turn around and tell you that in Ms. Cerllll: I am assuming that you have been the future, with new ideas, those areas that we set listening to other presentations this evening. Is that aside as parks today could become areas of high correct? potential. Mr. Nagerl: That is correct. Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, just to follow that up. If we Ms. Cerllll: I have been listening, and it is a took that to the logical conclusion, then it would concern to me that members of industry and seem to me that if it was discovered that mining members representing different organizations, under the Health Sciences Centre was valuable, Sierra Club, World Wildlife Fund, whatever we should tear down the Health Sciences Centre 396 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

and mine. I just do notthink that is valid. So if it is endangered species will require that there is not valid for the Health Sciences Centre, why is it absolutely no exploration. I am happy with that. 1 valid for a park? think Falconbridge is happy with that. Our concern Mr. Nagerl: I do not think you understand the is that there will be too many of the one and not concept of exploration. The concept of exploration enough of the other. is something that a lotof people do not understand. Mr. Storie: Mister-isit Nagerl? You need a large land base. That is implicit I had asked this of other representatives of because very little of thework we do is successful mining companies, and the question is: Was in finding a mine.It is a numbers game. Thatis why Falconbriclge seeking changes to The Park Lands it is so expensive to find a mine, and the return is Act? Are there existing concerns that you felt not that great these days either. It requires a lot of should have been addressed that either were or guts. were not addressed in this act? You have to come to a specific example. If you Mr. Nagerl: I do not know what Falconbridge is were to create a park in an area, for instance, and doing with respect to anything else but what I have the logical extension of some belt or nearby that presented here. We are lookingtoward s-we spent has not been defined, because all of Manitoba has a lot of ti me locally on a feasibility study of a not been mapped adequately, we are concerned particulararea. That is what I am most familiar with, that once a park has been designated, there is no so I cannot answer that. way that you can do exploration, therefore, no way you can find a mine. Mr. Storie: Perhaps a more general question: Was or is Falconbridge satisfied with the current level of We think,since mines take very little land area, exploration and the requirements, the regulations that the impact is very local and that therefore governing exploration and mining development in mining and parks can work together. We can have the province as it exists? both. Mr. Nagerl: Can you be more clear? Mrs. carstalrs: Well, I really do not want to argue with you because I do not think it is entirely fair, but Mr. Storie: Are you satisfied with the existing the reality is surely that you have already excluded regime? certain land masses in the province from even Mr. Nagerl: The Mines Act or the incentives examination,such as the HealthSciences Centre. I provided? mean you are not looking there because it is not Mr. Storie: The Mines Act and The Park Lands realisticfor you to look there. Act. What is so difficult aboutachieving a mindset in Mr. Nageri : Yes, l am. the mining industry that parkland should have the same designation? Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Nagerl. Mr. Nagerl: First off, if you were to consult mining to see which areas we would want to exclude from Mr. Charles Norman, Laird Crawford, Kevin our exploration, that would be thefirst st ep. Allan, Susan Bosecke, Harvey Ander, J. Weldon, Secondly,and we realize that has tobe done, but S. Jenks, Charles L. Watts, Edna Leeper, Lawrence Ogrodnick, Gene Hrabarchuk, Clifford why not have multiuse, if the impact is very local? and Muriel Anderson, Mr. and Mrs. George Leeper, Why not? In my mind, when people think of parks Adrienne Hrabarchuk, Larry and Joan Dick, Tom and they think of mining, they think of the entire Crowhurst, William Ferreira, Dwight Lysak, J.E. park and mining taking over the entire park. One Atkins, Bruce Samson. square kilometre in Namew Lake mine, that is fact. That is today. I believe it is not in the park, but the Justone minute, Mr. Samson. We are just going situation is the same for many areas that we are to pass the brief around.Go ahead, Mr. Samson. exploring today. Mr. Bruce Samson (Whites hell District If you pull away, the impact is, you miss out. It Association Inc.): Mr. Chairperson, committee becomes a smaller area in a very large area. That members, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Bruce will be an example of the category that allows Samson. I am the government liaison exploration. Granted, there are cases where representative for the Whitesheli District July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 397

Association. As an association, we made a We sponsor a programin the park which teaches presentation to the round table, butwe strongly feel an average of 600 children per year to swim and that when the summary was made for all the canoe and practise water safety. presentations, the correct weight was not placed on We publ ish a membership-subsidized our presentation. Our presentation represented newspaper "The EchoB six times a year to inform 2,274 cottage owners, but was only given the the members of park plans and information: the weight of one. Whiteshell District Association upcoming events, In our presentation tonight, I would like to cover RCMP reports. It is a vehicle for local businesses to some of the most important items that are advertise in. paramount with our 2,274 members. I will now go We work with Crime Stoppers group to provide on to the presentation being passed out. I will not an effective anticrime program. cover it In total, but only highlight parts of it. We work with the fire prevention people to * (2230) establish local firefighting capabilities and help subsidize their training. The Whiteshell District Association's aims are to carry on, without pecuniary gain, objects of a We provide volunteers who gather weekly water national, patriotic, religious, philanthropic, specimens as part of a long-term water quality charitable, professional, scientific, artistic, social or sampling program on nine Whiteshell lakes to the sporting character or the like. Departmentof Environment. This is to be expanded to 20 lakes in 1993. On page one, the Whiteshell District Association We meet regularly with the Parks Branch to was formed in 1951 by a dedicated group of provide and exchange information. individuals interested in encouraging the development of the Whiteshell forest reserve as a We provide encouragement and donations of vacation and recreational area. Ours is a nonprofit membership funds to assist activities in the organization whose constitution requires all income Whiteshell to benefit all park users. to be spent in the promotion of our aims and We assist in placing hundreds of bird houses on objectives. the telephone buried cable marker cans, just a little item that we did last year When our association was founded, the . Whiteshell forest reserve was little more than virgin We provide jobs for Manitobans through many wilderness traversed by a two-lane asphalt road projects such as our water safety and recycling known as Highway No. 1 now No. 44. There was no programs. hydro, no telephone lines in the region and little in A new program we are currently looking at would the way of other services to assist those hardy be to employ retired people to man the entrance Manitoba people who wanted to build a vacation gates to the park when not manned by park staff, to retreat for their families in this beautiful spot provide incoming visitors with helpful information provided by nature. and a Welcome to the Whiteshell. In 1992, the membership of our association was Basically the role of the cottage owner, by virtue 2,274 cottage owners and is growing. These are all of there being 3,408 summer cottages in the paid-up members. Management of the association Whiteshell, we feel that our presence has made it projects is provided by the board of directors of 40 more feasible for the province to create accessory men and women with a six-member executive regional recreational developments for those committee. people who spend their leisure in this and other areas. The Whiteshell District Association undertakes several new projects each year and, as well, The traffic created by cottage owners, not only activities on an ongoing basis. Some of the automobile but traffic in goodsand servicesto the accomplishments are, we have established two area, almost alone support their existence. recycling depots in the Whiteshell Park with plans Without the more than 3,000 cottage for four more. Truckloads of recyclables are picked subscribers, it is doubtful that Manitoba Hydro up. This is one of the concrete examples of our would have electrified the Whiteshell and adjacent contribution to sustainable development. areas as early as they did. Our members are 398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

long-time owners of their cottages and many have and where demand exists these lots should be visited the same location for 40, 50 or 60 years. made available to the citizens of Manitoba at a We go on to talk about jobs and taxes. reasonable price, but only on lakes where cottage lot developmentis suitable. On page 4, we talk about holiday dollars, a very important point. Further to the preceding section, We go on to page 1 0: The Whiteshell District we would like to point out that the majority of Association questions the 12 percent figure for cottages in the Whiteshell are used not only on protected spaces, as we have been told at a recent weekends, but also for the annual family vacation. workshop thatthis figure is actually 4 percent. That The money that many people spend on is the goal, and a fudge factor of three times has out-of-province vacations is often spent by our been used to arrive at 12 percent. people on their cottageand in Manitoba. We also question the definition of protected The corresponding dollars that their neighbours spaces as being large areas with minor activity, have spent on a trip to Hawaii or Mexico often versus, as we would like to see, many smaller meant a septic field or a badly needed bedroom areas making up the required 4 percent. Are we addition to the cottage owner. The majority of interested in amassing land or are we interested in recreation and vacation dollars of the cottage sustainable development? owners are spent at home, in Manitoba, for the As stated earlier, as a group, we are against benefit of Manitobans. As the cottage owner has discontinuing limited and controlled commercial long discovered, "Friendly Manitoba" and, of logging, mining and hydro development from parks. course, the cottage is a family gathering point for We know that the WDA members are already many people returning each year to their cottage in participating and are contributing now to the Manitoba. protected area goals, as established in the 1981 We talk about the construction process, that the Whiteshell Master Plan. cottages were built with a lot of sweat equity. We disagree withsetti ng large uninhabited areas We go on, on page 5, as the cost of servicing the aside to obtain these goals. Whiteshell Provincial Park has risen over the past few years in our inflationary society, we summer We are against the sale of Crown lands in parks. residents in the park have experienced a In this policy area, we see no reference to curtailment of services, nodoubt in an effortto keep establishing more areas for cottaging in Manitoba, costs down. We believe the majority of residents so that the quality of life for Manitoba citizens will be understand this situation, and while they would like improved. to have the service level restored to what it was, have by and large accepted the cutbacks as a We move on to page 13, please: This area method of keeping their lease fees at a reasonable seems to parallel all the work that has been done in level. the 1981 Master Plan. Many of our members feel that the current status of multiple use is working We suspect that if thelease fees are raised any well and that thepresent Park Lands is satisfactory. further, there will be a great cry for increased We seriously question the need for major changes services and demands, for these services could as is being putforward. well consume a large portion of any increase in lease fees. We would also like to add that much has to be done to complete the goals of the 1981 Master We go on then to page 9 and talk briefly by Plan, however the higher fees goal has not only stating: We are not in favour of the Manitoba been reached but surpassed. government selling the lots in the provincial park. We are not in favour of removing or preventing In 1930, the Province of Manitoba public sustainable commercial development, such as brochure on the development of Whiteshell Park forestry, mining, hydro development, et cetera, in emphasizes what emphasis was placed on keeping the parks, providing the activities are based on Manitobans in Manitoba for the recreational visits to sound sustainable development principles and Canadian Shield country. This park was the result properly regulated and managed. The development of a concentrated effort to stop Manitobans from of additional cottage lots should be undertaken, going to lakes in northwestern Ontario and sending July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 399

their presence and tourist dollars out of Manitoba in place has been a workable compromise in many and it, of course, has worked. respects. Let us not forget that today there are thousands * (2240) of cottage lots available in northwestern Ontario I am wondering whether you have any concerns and our highways have improved to the point about, other than general concerns, the power that where many of them are only a 30-minute drive is left in the cabinet's hand to set regulations, to beyond the Whiteshell Park. establish fees and levies on their own, about the In summary, on page 14: The Whiteshell District criteria the government is going to use to establish Association members feel that the Crown lands in these fees, particularly Section 18(3) where it talks the park should not be sold, that the lot rental fees about park district costs. I am wondering if your be maintained at a reasonable level, that suitable association has any views on that. commercial development in the parks should Mr. Samson: Yes, we have, and I think we have continue and could be expanded following good covered it sort of briefly, Mr. Storie, in our sustainable development guidelines, that cottage presentation. We have found through past work development should be maintained and expanded with the department that we have been able to to encourage and provide Manitobans with arrive at many mutual goals. We hope that this opportunities to experience natural lands and relationship will continue, and we feel that it will. We special places, that continuous direct association have, certainly, some concerns about the solidarity between the Parks Branch and our group provides of the act. We feel that the act leaves too much the best possible and mutual direction in planning power in the hands of the cabinet. and servicing the park; that other park associations Mr. Storie: One furtherquestion. I mean, there are can serve a similar purpose in the other areas of twoaspects to this. Onedeals with the servicefees the park; and the last item which is not in your for cottagers, and the other deals with permanent summary, that the proposed Bill 41 puts too much residence. I am wondering how or what in your view power in the hands of the cabinet who can act by should be done with any levy that is placed on way of regulation rather than having the act be permanent residence. Should that go into more specific. government general revenue, or should the Thank you. government find a way to transferthat to adjacent municipalities if there is a logical municipality to Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Samson. Would transfer the funds to? you mind taking a couple of questions? Mr. Samson: You have asked me for a simple Mr. Samson: Certainly, Mr. Chair. answer to a very complicated question. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Chairperson, just for Mr. Storie: In the Whiteshell it is. clarification, on page 10 you say, we are against Mr. Samson : Yes, and it is also becoming and the sale of Crown lands in parks. For a point of growing more complicated because more and more clarification, are you referring to new lots in parks, people are using their cottages as permanent or are you also referring to lots on which existing residence as they retire. Because the program cottages currently are situated? started back in 1940 or in that range, as some of Mr. Samson: In both cases, yes. the other presenters have said, we are now getting a lot of people at the retired age, and you will find Mrs. Dacquay: In both cases? more and more people declaring, not only because Mr. Samson: Yes. they want to but because of some of the federal tax Mr. Storie: I thank Mr. Samson for his laws, their cottages as a permanent residence. I presentation. Mr. Samson, you will not be surprised cannot answer the distribution of funds. to learn that you are one of many presenters both Mr. Storie: I appreciate that it is much more difficult from those concerned with the Endangered Spaces in the case of the Whiteshell. I think it is much Program and the preservation of our parks, mining plainer and more straightforward in areas like The companies andcotta gers who all have said that in Pas and Flin Flon where in fact the municipalities one way or another this bill does not do what it is have been the ones who have been arguing that supposed to do or it says, essentially, that what is there should be some application of some levy. In 400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

fact, most cottagers in Flin Flon and in our We have heard a great deal about the question provincial parks and our Crown lands acknowledge of taxation without representation at these that they are prepared to pay a levy, providing that hearings, particularly from those parties on private it goes to the municipality and does not turn into a land holdings. I know that I will not be able to tax grab by the provincial government which is demonstrate this unless we actually have a year what appears to be happening in this legislation. under our belt where I can demonstrate my commitment and my senior parks administration's An Honourable Member:Never. commitment to making this a very real consultative An Honourable Member: Never. Yes, we will process in arriving at the kind of fees that you will believe that too. be paying and in arrivingat the kind of fee structure Mr. Samson: Our minister has answered that that will be required to recover some of the costs question for me. Again, as I pointed out in our involved. presentation, we are concerned about the levy Mr. Samson: If I could give two answers to your fees-absolutely. We would certainly like to see question, sir, and perhaps a bit of an answer to Mr. them remain at a reasonable level. We do not want Storie, we as an association have always been in to see it become a tax grab. That is absolutely true. favour of a fee for service.In fact, we have on many occasions been in opposition to people who have Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairperson, just one question to not paid the service fees and feel that they should, Mr. Samson. I appreciate his presence in and we have so stated on many occasions that all discussing this bill, and I appreciate the association people using the parks,who have cottagesand are may not have had adequate time to meet and to using land, whether they be private land holders or discuss it, but I would hope that the association, renters, should be paying a service fee. Both representing the largest single group of cottagers myself and my predecessor have brought this up within a park system, would look at Sections 18 on many occasions. through 20 of the act as in fact reaching outeven To answer your question specifically, sir, we feel more so to the cottage owners. that the negotiation processcertainly is a goodone. I hastento add, we have had a goodrelationship We have had success in the past, and we think I think over the years with the association and with probably we can have success in the future. the administration of the Parks Branch. I would, of Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your course, like to extendthat to all cottagers, including presentation, Mr. Samson. the cottagers on private lands, that we can really bring about, even improve on, that relationship and Doug Fahlgren, Glen Ridings, Beth Ridings, satisfy ourselves that we are providing the kind of Laura Reeves, Laura Reeves, Gayle Stilkowski, service at an appropriate cost that satisfies the Lorrie Hutton, Mrs. and Mrs. Louis LaFontaine, Jorma Hannila, George Harbottle, William Pruitt. needs of the department and comes closer to fulfilling the needs of your clients, of your cottagers, Dr. William Pruitt (Private Citizen): Yes. Mr. Samson. Professor Pruitt. With the commitment in the bill, not just at the Mr. Chairperson: Professor Pruitt, you have a whim of whoever the current parks director is, or written presentation, I believe. We will distribute it. parks manager is, or of the minister, that my senior Just give me one minute. You can go ahead, people, the parks managers of the different parks, Professor. would have to sit down on a regular basis with your Mr. Pruitt: My name is William Pruitt. I am association members and go over the costs of Professor of Zoology at the University of Manitoba. doing business thelast year-was it an appropriate From 1973 until 1993 I served on the Wildlife level-and agree to a reasonable level of services Committee of Manitoba Environmental Council, and costs attached thereto for the coming year, that is from its beginning untilits recent death at the which hopefully would keep a lid and some further hands of the present provincial government. I control in fact by the cottagers, is, I submit to you, present the following comments on the proposed the closest thing that we thought we could comeup Bi11 41 as a private citizen. to with providing you with a direct say in the In addition to the followingcommen ts I refer you assessing of a tax,if you like, or a fee. to my more detailed analysis of the Provincial July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 401

Parks and Natural Lands Workbook which I yes, 11 percent. Remember, this was at a time presented to the public hearings in Winnipeg. when a minister had unilaterally opened two lakes in the park to cottage exploitation before any study The Provincial Parks Act of 1972 which Bill 41 had been done to determine if the two lakes could will replace states, "Provincial park lands shall be support such exploitation and before a master plan developed and maintained (a) for the conservation had been approved or even discussed. and management of flora and fauna therein; (b) for the preservation of specified areas and objects Wang also queried, should logging be permitted therein that are of geological, cultural, ecological, or in provincial parks? The answer was no, 75.8 other scientific interest, and (c) to facilitate the use percent to yes, 4 percent. He also queried, should and enjoyment of outdoor recreation therein.ft mining be permitted in provincial parks? The This admirable statement of purpose was eroded answer was no, 81 .4 percent to yes, 3.9 percent. He also queried, should trapping be permitted in by a later Tory minister, A. Brian Ransom on 30 provincial parks? The answer was no, 67.9 percent July 1979 in his Provincial Parks Lands Policy, in which is stated: Park lands will: (i) Respond firstly to to yes, 8.3 percent. provincial interest for rare, scarce or special forms Pirt in 1976 queried, should hunting be permitted of recreation, and secondly to regional demands in provincial parks? The answer was no, 63.3 and priorities. Then he went on to section (iii) percent to yes, 16.7 percent. Provide opportunities for outdoor recreation in Manitobans are not unique in emphatically terms of consumptive uses, such as hunting and rejecting logging, mining, trapping or hunting in fishing, and nonconsumptive uses, both of which their provincial parks. In British Columbia Thorsell are considered equally legitimate; (iv) To in 1976 queried, should selective logging be accommodate commercial utilization of resources penilitted in provincial parks? The answer was no, where it does not lessen future recreational use 85.8 percent to yes, 11 percent. In Ontario, Gallup potential or unduly compromise the primary opinion poll in 1980 queried, should logging be purpose of the parkland. Notice that even this rabid permitted in provincial parks? The answer was no, Tory exploiter recognized that the "primary purpose 66 percent to yes, 18 percent. Gallup opinion poll in of parkland" took precedence over commercial Ontario also queried, should mining be allowed in exploitation. provincial parks? The answer was no, 73 percent to During the past year or so we have been yes, 12 percent. Ontario Gallup opinion poll also bombarded with a series of public statements and queried, should hunting be permitted in provincial letters in the daily press from a group with personal parks? The answer was no, 86 percent to yes, 8 financial interests in reducing and fragmenting the percent. already weak environmental protection afforded by (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Acting Chairperson, in The Provincial Parks Act. Opposed to these the Chair) pressure tactics you should know that there are only four scientifically valid surveys of the opinions I know of no valid survey that contradicts these of Manitobans as to how they want their provincial findings. There is a rich scientific literature on parks parks to be run. I know of no other valid sources of and other types of protected areas, their size, opinion. One is a survey by Nickels, in 1982, and shape, orientation, function, classification, and out of 99 criteria rated the least preferred were other attributes. Briefly, parks should be as large as areas for hunting birds, areas for hunting animals possible, large enough to encompass habitat for and areas for snowmobiling. about 500 individuals of the species requiring the largest home range size, (Newmark, 1986; Shaffer, The survey by Wang, in 1979, Whiteshell 1981 ). They should also have the simplest Cottagers Association rejected hunting in boundaries possible,that is no irregular extensions Whiteshell Provincial Park 79.9 percent to 15 or inversions of boundaries, (Pickett and percent. A later survey by Wang in 1979 queried, Thompson, 1978), and no enclosed nonconforming should hunting be permitted on parklands? The enclaves, that is no parcels of private land or answer was no, 76.3 percent to yes, 6.2 percent. nonparkland within the park boundaries. Wang also queried, should Nopiming Park have development of cottages or commercial Land use should be zoned and prioritized operations? The answer was no, 85.9 percent to according to sensitivity or production or use from 402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

the most sensitive to the least sensitive, that is from Bill 41 is an appalling caricature of a provincial nonconsumptive , nondestructive use by all parks act. It may have been suitable at the Manitobans down to destructive, consumptive use beginning of the 20th Century, but it has no place for personal benefit of an individual or company. when considering the imminent 21st Century. I not Such destructive, consumptive, personal or only urge but I demand that it be scrapped. company exploitation should never take place I also furnish you with the literature cited where within a park. These are some of the criteria you may look these items up. governing provincial and national parks throughout the world, (Cowan, 1970; Fuller, 1970). The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Louise Dacquay): Thank you, Mr. Pruitt.There may be questions from Therefore, the Manitoba workbook on Natural members of the committee. Would you be prepared Lands and Special Places, the Natural Lands and to respond to questions? Special Places Park Lands Act review and the Of present proposed Bill 41 all fly in the face of Mr.Pruitt: course. theoretical and practical actions by other provincial The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Louise Dacquay): and national governments. No further questions. Thank you for your In Bill 41 , the statement that representative presentation. examples of diverse natural and cultural heritage I am not certain but someone representing the are conserved is downgraded to a status equal to Coalition to Save the Elms, is it Christine Singh? appropriate economic opportunities are provided. You may proceed, Ms. Singh. This circumvention of park values is reiterated in Ms. Christine Singh (Coalition to Save the Section 5(d) where to provide economic Elms): Madam Chair, Mr. Minister and members of opportunities in accordance with park the committee, I wish to commendthis committee classifications and land use categories is given for the exhaustive task that you are enduring so status equal to such things as ecosystem well here. I do not know how you are standing up so conservation, maintenance of biodiversity, well, because I feel rattled myself having listened to preservation of natural, cultural and heritage all the information overload that is going on over resources and provision of outdoor recreation and here. educational opportunities. This piece of legislation is, from the global Such distortion and obfuscation of park values perspective, the most important piece of legislation continues in Section 7(2)(b) in the definition of a that you will be dealing with during this session. natural park as oneto preserve areas of a natural Down the line somewhere it has the potential to region and to accommodate a diversity of affectour planet for better or for worse. The ball is recreational opportunities and resource uses. This in the your courtand the responsibility is awesome. is a real perversion of the English language. It is I will proceed with my presentation which you all also a perversion of the concept of sustainable have a copy of. development. Moreover, Sections 7(3) (a), (b), (c), This brief is presented on behalf of Coalition to (d), (e), (f), and (g) and 7(4) are garbled, make no Save the Elms, a coalition of 28 community groups sense and require severe editing to be who are concerned about urban forestry and urban comprehensible. environments throughout Manitoba. Consistent The bulk of Bill 41 consists of busywork and with views put forward at the First Canadian Urban housekeeping directions such as what to do if Forest Conference, we espouse the concept ofthe someone fails to stop their vehicle if caught urban forest as an integrated ecosystem speeding, or if someone does not keep their interdependent upon other systems. It follows, cottage in good repair. Such minor material does therefore, that consideration and management of not belong in an enabling act but in the day-to-day urban forests must take place systemically in order regulations pertainingto running the park. In all this to be truly effective. This must include factors mass of verbiage, nowhere are there statements of outside towns and cities, extendingto controlssuch as laws and public policies. vision or lofty ideals about preservation of ecosystems or biodiversity or maintenance of Every year we witness accumulating losses of habitat sufficientto protect large carnivores. our environmental heritage, our natural lands and July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 403

special places, as development and resource federal government's Green Plan to carry out a extraction take priority over the principles of project which should serve to heighten public sustainable development as identified in Our awareness of many of the issues which bring us Common Future , otherwise known as the here today. Brundtland Commission. Biodiversitywas identified I think, further to that, the public does not as one of the major policy areas to be addressed. understand a lot about what we are dialoguing here Development tends to simplify ecosystems-this is tonight. A lot of people do not understand what a quote-and to reduce their diversity of species, sustainable development really is. There are a lot of and species once extinct are not renewable. The mixed of ideas going on out in the community about loss of plant and animal species can greatly limit what it really means. I think the act should address the options of future generations, so sustainable that deficiency. development requires the conservation of plant and animal species. In order to demonstrate that critique of our record of environmental stewardship and conservation in * (2300) Manitoba and Canada is not limited merely to In spite of this, lack of real concern about national and provincial criticism, we wish to draw conservation and stewardship continues to allow attention to an editorial in Wild Earth magazine, for inappropriate losses of important environmental written by prominent American environmentalist resources. It happens in our cities and is pervasive David Foreman after a trip to Canada in 1991. He is in our rural lands, and each time it happens it a conservation biologist who was doing some incrementally increases the threat of collapse of lecturing. Foreman writes that Canada more than Earth's biological life supportsyste m. It mocks any any other nation, with the possible exception of commitment to think globally and act locally. Russia, has the opportunity to preserve true ecological wilderness with all native species and The coalition expresses dismay that the natural processes intact. government of Manitoba received an F grade from the Sierra Club of Canada for allowing resource Then he proceeds to describe why he refers to extraction within provincial park boundaries. The Canada as "Brazil North." "Nowhere else on earth World Wildlife Fund gave our government a D for today is wilderness, biodiversity and integrity being not fulfilling its commitment to protecting natural ripped apart, shredded and hammered into the areas. As Manitobans we feel demeaned, and I tawdry articles of international commerce as would like to say that I think part of this is quickly and intensely as in Canada. Yes, it is historically routed in the resource extraction that happening elsewhere, but what is going on at the has preceded park designation. So I am not totally end of the road in British Columbia, Alberta, faulting anybody here. Manitoba and Quebec is unmatched for its sheer magnitude and stupidity. We must strive hard to do better and we can if we all pull together to amend a bill which has potential, It is time that international pressure be brought provided some badly needed amendments are on the national and provincial governments and on made. Without these amendments, we remain at the business leaders of Canada as pressure has great risk of increased disastrous losses of our been applied in the Third World nations. It is time essential environmental heritage and escalating that conservationists around the world raise such a confrontation. hue and cry that, when Canada is mentioned, images of forests falling and native people being It is cut of deep concern and commitment to such driven from their homes spring to mind just as they environmental concerns that we are here today to do when we hear the word 'Amazon'." propose that Bill 41 weakens park protection in Manitoba and allows for a perversion of the These are very strong words from an American sustainable development principle to which this environmentalist. But he then wisely proceeds to government has committed itself. It is also out of offer us a process of redemption. "Yet Canada deep concern that the coalition has embarked upon remains the paramount hope for significant a three-year forest education and action program wilderness preservationon this planet. Canada has entitled "Tree For All." We have been awarded an some of the most visionary, effective, committed Environmental Partners Fund grant from the and intransigent conservationists in the world. The 404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

ecological fabric of the bulk of the country remains future generations. However, we are concerned intact. If the destruction can be stopped, if the that without full public consultation input, short-term boreal forests of Alberta and Manitoba can be economic development will tend to eclipse saved, if the nightmarish James Bay Project can be long-term economic benefitsfor society. terminated, ifthe last great coastal forestsof British Section 7 dealing with classification of parks Columbia can be spared the chain saw, if the seems to remove protection from provincial parks mining threat to the Tat is thwarted, ...if and is a mandate for logging in Manitoba's self-conscious restraint can come to Canada, Nopiming, Whiteshell and Grass River. In our Canada can bless the world's true wilderness.n opinion, this section is unclear and inadequate in its Here is a call to the government of Manitoba to definition. It needs to be tightened up. It is bound to take up a challenge which can begin with an lead to conflict and confrontation unless needed amended Bill 41 . Foreman issues a stinging amendments are made to it, and that is clarification condemnation of what is happening in Canada and and tightening up. Section 9 and Section 10(1)(b) Manitoba, and then he reveals a window of will allow economic activity to dictate land use in opportunity for enlightened self-interest through parks. Section 9(2) would allow an economic principles of sustainable development. development proposal to supersede park interests by using the environmental assessment process. The coalition implores the government of Manitoba to play a lead role in establishing the Another concernof the coalition is that there is no problem of disappearing ecosystems on political provision made for the First Nation peoples. There agendas as a major economic and resource issue. is nothing in the bill to enable just treatment of It is no longer an issue of human needs being aboriginal peoples with respect to outstanding land sacrificed to protect nature. Thesa crificescalled for claims, nor is there any reference to traditional land in the protection of biodiversity are now a matter of use within provincial parks. No bill in parks is human survival on the planet. complete without addressing these issues. Bill 41 is not a strong and effective response to There are some very good measures in the act, the concernsof the Brundtland Commission. It fails such as provision for stronger enforcement of to carry forward the enlightened policy positions violations in parks and requirements that published by the provincial government in the past management plans be reviewed in public, but these three years toward a sustainable development are overshadowed by the government insistingthat strategy for Manitobans. These policy positions are the purpose of parks entails resource extraction. excellent, and I think that they have only been The philosophy of governmentis that parks should carried through in some measure but not in full be put to multiple use and that disallowing resource measure in this Bill 41 . extraction is wasteful. It means that virtually no place should be left alone. This contradicts In the Preamble and in Section 5(d) and Section principles of sustainable development and makes 7, the bill entrenches the right to log, mine, et highly improbable the laying aside of 12 percent of cetera, in provincial parks. This contradicts the our land mass for preservation biodiversity. To United Nations Commission goal of preserving 12 date, Manitoba has set aside more land in parks percent of representative natural lands. The most than other provinces, but less than 1 percent is effective way that parks can serve the cause of protected as wilderness. sustainable development is by being increased in number, expanse and level of protection and not by * (231 0) providing appropriate economic opportunities as In closing, the coalition commends government suggested in the Preamble and 5(d). Principles of for undertaking the difficult task of updating the sustainable development would never classify the legislation that governs Manitoba's provincial pursuit of economic opportunity as a purpose of parklands. Legislating the environment is one of the parks. most difficult tasks facing all of us today, and I am In Section 6, the system plan makes no provision well aware of that. I hope I am not seeming over for a public consultation or input. We certainly critical, and any of the information that I have support the concept of a system plan for parks brought you from the other side of the border is to which will take into consideration the needs of highlight what other people are feeling aboutwhat July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 405

is going on all over our country, notspeci fically in alone. I wonder why you would come to that this legislation. conclusion. It should be done with a great dealof thought and Ms. Singh: Mr. Minister, I think that I understand never rushed through. Inadequate legislation will where your uncertainties about that comment are result in ongoing conflict and controversy. Before coming from. I think it flows from lack of clear this bill is passed into law in this Legislature, there definitions in the bill. When we were discussing this is much work to be done on it if we are to avoid as a group, this was the feeling of most people.We such conflict. With amendments, a revised bill has could not come to a real conclusion on this, but we the potential to give Manitobans a new enlightened felt that possibly what the bill was putting forward image of environmental conservation and was the possibility of allowing the point that stewardship in the national and international stage. resource extraction is wasteful and that no Our record to date is distressing to thousands of land-there did not seem to be any clarification of Manitobans. land being set aside totally as wilderness in any of the classifications. On behalf of the coalition, I most urgently request that this bill be sent back for amendments. There Mr. Enns: Well, Madam Acting Chair, through you are some excellent suggestions that have come to Ms. Singh, as you have noted, I have had-and I forward at this hearing process. The appreciate that senior Parks officials have been recommendations of Professor Harvey Williams in with us throughout these hearings. I think it is his brief, and in that put forward by the coalition's extremely important that the administration also legal counsel, Mr. Brian Pannell, there lies much to has an opportunity to hear first-hand some of the offerin enrichment and clarification of Bill 41 . concerns and some of the recommendations, quite We also heard other papers tonight, and I think frankly, that are coming forward. the one that was put forward by-who was it last I have asked them specifically to look at some of night that gave such a good paper? Dr. Rajotte, the specific recommendations, some of the specific right. She had some very good suggestions in her recommendations that were presented in paper. particularly some briefs, some that you have Manitobans deserve a better bill, one that truly referred to. I acknowledge that in some cases just contributes to sustainable development rather than the right word or how it is placed or where it is favouring commercial development, a bill that puts placed has a meaning that perhaps we in us on the forefront of environmental enlightenment government are not always particularly sensitive and facilitates the processes that will allow for the but means more in the community that are continued existence of human beings on planet particularlycritical and watchful over what we do in Earth. this sense. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to I want to indicate to you, through you, Madam speak. Acting Chair, that it is precisely because the current provincial legislation as currently structured does The Acting Chairperson {Mrs. Dacquay): Thank not allow me to enter into a higher level of for your presentation, Ms. Singh. believe there you I protection, legislative protection, that is called for could be questions from some of the committee by organizations such as the World Wildlife Fund members. and Endangered Spaces Program that moves me Mr. Enns: Ms. Singh, I wish to thank you for your to move this bill forward at this time, that I do see it, presentation. You have been listening to much of despite the raised eyebrows that I solicit from some the presentations here today, so you have heard members in the broader community, that I view this me comment on some features, aspects of the bill, bill as a protectionist bill. and I just have the one question. I view this bill as enabling me to put-not just it On the top of page 8 of your brief, you come to means that virtually no places shall be left alone, the automatic conclusion that the philosophy of that indeeda majority, and I cannotquantify that at government is that parks should continue as some this time. I am told by my Parks director that 50 to multiuse use, and that automaticallymeans, in your 60 percent of the 3.5 million acres can be and will own words, that virtually no place shall be left be, I want to inform honourable members of this 406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

committee, probably will be placed under that already had indication that there are two, if not protectionvery quickly upon passage of the bill. more, individuals present this evening that have I leave you with thatquestion. Surely that would explicitly requested to be heard.With thewill of the be a desirable result no matterwhat your opinions committee, I would liketo read through a few more are of the bill in its total. If within a reasonable time names and seewhere we arrive at, and how many significant acreage of those 3.5 millionacres of the are here, andthen, perhaps,canvass the members parks were to achieve thatprotected status, would of the public that are still here this evening who you not consider that to be a worthwhile step, no have been waiting patiently and see if it is at all matter howsmall thestep or how large the step, but possibleto hear themas we did last evening. Is that a step in the right direction? the will of committee?Agreed? Ms.Singh: I certainlywould, Mr. Minister. Any step Some Honourable Members:Agreed . to that end is a worthwhile step. The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay) : The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Thank Agreed. you for your presentation. David Shefford, Stan Martin, Peter Marchenski, Mrs.Carsta lrs: Well, I do not have any questions, M. Reid, Barry Christie, Ida Grant, Barbara Mcleod but I have a questionto you. and Tim Williams, Michael S.E. Dickens, Susan Lorden, Walter and lesia Whyte, Frank Rogowy, The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): No leo and Pat langlors, Terence A. Kane, Arnold questions of our presenter? Watts, Margaret Pilloud. Mrs. Carstalrs: No. Ms. Pilloud, do you have copies of your The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Okay. presentation for members of the committee? Thank you. Ms.Margaret Pllloud (Private Citizen): Yes, I do.

*** The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Dacquay): Would you please, just for the record, correct me if I Mrs.Carstalrs: Yes, Madam Acting Chair, we had mispronounced your name? made the decision when we sat down tonight at Ms. Pllloud: It is Pilloud. seven o'clock that we would revisit how long we were going to sit this evening at eleven o'clock. It is The Acting Chairperson(Mrs. Dacquay) : Pilloud. now 11:15. Thank you.You may proceed, Ms. Pilloud. Hon. Gerald Ducharme(Minister of Government (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Services):Let us call about two or three. Ms.Pllloud: Okay. I own a cottage at lot 4 Eagle Mrs. Carstalrs: The Minister for Government Bay Road, Nutimik lake in the Whiteshell Serviceshas suggested we hear three more. I think Provincial Park. I oppose Bill 41 for the following that is reasonable. That wouldtake us tiii- reasons. Mr. Ducharme: Let us go till twoor three. "(2320) Mrs. Carstalrs:Till two or three in the morning? Service fees are charged, and there are no Since we are going to sit again at nine o'clock services given. Our road maintenance is paid by tomorrow morning, I hardly think there is much the people who own property on Eagle Bay Road. point to that. The service fee that I pay to the Eagle Bay Road Association-! can see how my money is being An Honourable Member: We are not sitting at used. nine o'clocktomorr ow morning. Secondly, I would like to see a municipality Mrs. Carstalrs: Yes, it is. This committee is sitting formed so we can electour own officialswho would at nine o'clock tomorrow morning. Is it not? answer to us. Taxes or servicefees charged under An Honourable Member:No, we are not.That is this programwould be more acceptable to me as a why I am saying, let us get as many as we can. private citizen. The ActingChai rperson (Mrs. Dacquay): I have Mr.Chai rperson: Thank you for your presentation, been informed there is one been scheduled for 9 Ms. Pilloud. Would you mind putting up a couple of a.m. and 7 p.m. if necessary. However, I have questions? July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 407

Ms. Pllloud: Sure. has been increasingly alarmed at the impact that Mr. Storie: Thanks to Ms. Pilloud for her this government's agenda is having on the quality presentation. of our lives in Manitoba. We feel it is important that this agenda does not extend to our provincial The legislation, apart from the fact that it gives parks, natural lands and special places. the government a great deal of freedom to charge whatever basically that it wants, does provide for, The government of Manitoba has publicly No. 1 , an opening of the books, sothat within a park committed itself to the objectives of the World district, before they decide their fees, residents Wildlife Fund's Endangered Spaces Campaign and would be able to get a look at what the government indeed was one of the first provinces to do so. This says it is spendingin a parkdistrict. Is that sufficient campaign sets a goal of protecting at least 12 consultation? percent of Manitoba's ecosystem from commercial logging, mining, oil or natural gas exploration, and Ms.Pllloud: I would really have to think about that. hydro development. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate that until you actually see how it works, it is very difficult to At present, the Man itoba government only say whether it is going to work or not. protects 1 percent of its land mass from resource extraction activities, a far cry from its stated Ms. Pllloud: Right. objectives. Time and time again this government Mr. Storie: The government is presenting a simple has been publicly criticized for its lack of foresight in opening of the books. Never mind that it determines attaining 12 percent protection for our ecosystems. what the costs will be and how the costs will be portioned, administrative costs and all the rest of it, On June 1, 1993, the Sierra Club of Canada the government is at least attempting to say to released its much awaited report card. In it the cottagers that that is consultation. In my view, government of Manitoba received an F grade for unless you have some say in what goes into allowing resource extraction within provincial park assigning the costs, it does not really mean very boundaries. much. I guess it is unfortunate, but if the (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Acting Chairperson, in government proceeds with thisbill, you will only find the Chair) out after the fact what that means. In September of 1992 the World Wildlife Fund Ms. Pllloud: Yes. gave this government a D for not fulfilling its Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your commitment to protectingour natural areas. presentation. Indeed, this government's own recommending Angela Wadelius, Kevin Wadelius, Ray Mackie, body, the Clean Environment Commission, Jim Campbell, Chris Christensen, Alex Pylypowich, recognized the need to protect provincial parks Don Sullivan. Don is here. from resource activities. In response to this We are just going to get your presentation criticism, the government held hearings conducted passed out, Mr. Sullivan. Just give us 10 seconds. by the Manitoba Round Table on Environment and Thank you very much. Go ahead when you are Economy: Natural Lands and Special Places, The ready, Mr. Sullivan. Park Lands Act review. Hopes ran high that this Mr. Don Sullivan (Choices, a Coalition for government would finally address the inequities Social Justice): Good evening. It is nice to be back with the park act, and put into place real legislative here. I am here presenting on behalf of Choices, a protection for our parks. Coalition for Social Justice. I appear today before The lack of seriousness and commitment of this the committee to speak in opposition to Bill 41 , The government towards their stated objectives is Provincial Parks and Consequential Amendments evident by its proposed amendments to the park Act. act. Given the proposed amendments to the park We are a group of individuals dedicated to act before this committee, these hopes have been ensuring, through alternative policies, that the clear-cut. Once again this government has ignored economic and social infrastructures that make our the wishe·s of many Manitobans and has province a special place to live are maintained and succumbed to the parochial interests of the enhanced for the benefit of all Manitoba. Choices resource-extracting industries. 408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

Bill 41 affords Manitobans no more protection of to the circumventing of a long-standing democratic our parksfrom resource extraction than the present principle of no taxation without representation. If act. In fact,it even offers us less. What thisbill does this government is going to tax cottage owners, is create a perceptionthat this government is acting then cottage owners should have some form of responsibly by adding land use categories within a representation. The act as written does not allow classification of any given park. This, in effect, will for this. do no more than provide us with a checkerboard approach to park classification. Thus, it Another concern Choices has with regard to this act is that there is no provision made for First incrementalizes park designations andrenders the Nationspeople. There is no mechanism within this intent of the park act to that of a preamble status bill to deal with outstandingland claims within park which is nonjudicial. In other words, it soundsgood boundaries, nor is there any mention of traditional but means nothing. This, however, is in keeping land uses within provincial parks. Once again, the with this government's consistent rhetorical Crown has trampled on the rights of the First approach of not practising what they profess to Nations. preach. * (2330) Section 9(1 ) of this bill states: • ...the minister shall provide an opportunity for public consultation These are just a few of our concerns that we and shall seekadvice aboutproposed regulations" have with respectto this bill. All in all, Bill 41 is an before a regulation is made under Section 7 or ill-conceived piece of legislation that does not in subsection 8(2). any way address the fundamental reality of (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) protecting our parks from resource extraction activities so that future generations may benefit Our question to the minister responsible for the from their use in a sustainable way. What then act: What is this consultation mechanism? Is it the should a bill dealing with protection of our parks Clean Environment Commission? contain as an alternative to this bad piece of Is it the Manitoba Environmental Council, which legislation? We do not profess to have all the has been rendered ineffective bythis government's answers, but we do have some suggestionswhich slash-and-cut mentality to groups or organizations no doubt will be ignored, but nonetheless we will which may differ from government policies? Or will outline them here. this be a new advisorybody, and if so, how will it be Any policy or legislation dealing with our appointed?What powerswill this body have?Who provincial parks should reflect the changing will be represented on thisbody? perceptions and relationshipswe have aboutwhat Section 29(1) allows the minister, at his or her a park is. This changingrelationship can be defined discretion, to appoint an advisory committee, but by a set of principles which mustbe embedded in the wording is not in keeping with Section 9(1) of any legislation that deals with provincial parks, this act. Section 29(1 ) should be amended to read natural lands and special places. Fundamentally, as follows: Pursuant to Section 9(1 ), the minister parks are perceived as a sanctuary from the shall appoint an advisory committee to provide modern urban industrial life. Any encroachment of advice and recommendations to the minister industrial life upon these sanctuaries is concerningthe administration and regulationof one unacceptable. Thus theextracti on of resources by or more provincial parks. large industrial corporations is not only a Section 11 of this bill makes provisions for the desecration of these sanctuaries but also an establishment of a management plan for each assault on one's peace of mind. provincial park, but no mention of time frames for Contrary to this government's view, not the implementation of the management plan. How everything is for sale.Clearly, society believes that long are we to wait, five years, perhaps 1 0? Could our natural places are not subject to the Darwinian the minister responsiblete ll us? marketplace. Therefore, the principle that must Sections 18 and 21 of thisact deal with taxation guide park policies now and into the future are ones matters as they pertain to owners and occupiers of · based on the commitment by governments to land within provincial park boundaries. We are not protect and promote biodiversity, ecosystem opposed to such a tax policy, but we are opposed integrity, species preservation and the July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 409

nonconsumptive use of our unique places, rather Mr.Chairperson: Are thereany questions? than ones putting the emphasis on the Ms.Cer llll: Thank you verymuch. consumptive values and benefits derived from our provincial parks, natural lands and special places. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Sullivan: You are welcome. In closing, Choices believes that this government should make the tough choices. This bill offers Mr. Chairperson: Garry Halstead , Maureen Manitobans the status quo and affords us less Monczka, Don and Judy Parkinson, Eleanor J. protection of our natural areas than the existing bill. Douglas, Ken Dunsmore, Nancy Lamb, Adam Sus, It is high time that this government sees the forest Marguerite Smith, Dan Taylor, Lionel Vincent, from the trees. We can no longer afford to have our Shelley Chetyrbuk, Dave Belza, ArchieCin q-mars, parks at the disposal of resource-extracting Bev Nicol, F. Ellis, Armand and Florence Dupas, industries. The value derived from protection of our Dave Low, Ken Lesosky, Roman Osadchuk, natural places far exceed that which would be Gordon Mcilroy, Bev and Harvey Richardson, derived from any short-term economic benefits Judith Hutton, Dave Fetter, Angie Fetter, George gained by stumpage fees. This government should Scham, Arthur Kvern, Lorraine Kvern, Wayne use foresight to protect our parks rather than have Neily, Edward and Donna-Mae Burgener, John to deal with their destruction in hindsight. Jacobson. John is here. I had you ticked off as being here. We have your written presentation, Mr. I would also like to make a comment for people Jacobson? who are skeptical about just what the forest industry is doing in Canada overall. I am going to Mr. John Jacobson (Private Citizen): No, I have read this into the record. Industry and government no written presentation on purpose. critics of the Brazil of the North campaign argue Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. You that Canada's deforestation is different because could present any time you are ready. the wood is utilized and forests are replanted. Mr. Jacobson: Thank you very much. There is also massive woodwaste in clear-cutting of Canada's forests, but there are many other This in itself has been a trying experience, just similarities. listening to the number of people that have not been able to present. I do not know if this is very Consider the following. The size of Canada, 9.9 democratic or not. I have a great sense that it is sad million square kilometres; the size of Brazil, 8.5 when men can vote themselves a raise, but it is a million kilometres. Percent of Canada covered by sadder thing when people cannot raise themselves forests, 45 percent; percent of Brazil covered by to vote, and if you do vote sometimes, you vote for Amazon rain forest, 41 percent. Hectares of forest the wrong party. And if you vote, sometimes your cleared in Canada in 1988, 1 ,021 ,61 9; amount of party betrays you , and if you vote and if you are Brazilian rain forest that has been cleared or sure of the way things are going, then you are kind burned in 1990, 1 ,382,000. Amount of productive of lucky to have a feeling that you are putting your Canadian forest that is now either barren or not confidence in a group of people to try to run the sufficiently restocked after clear-cutting, 10.3 country and the province. percent; the amount of Brazilian rain forest thathas disappeared, 12 percent. Estimated number of I find it really lamentable, personally, that the Indians and Metis in Canada's boreal forest, media are not here now. They showed up for the 1 00,000; estimated number of Indians in the Ritz cookies and the Cheese Whiz, and then they Amazon forest, 170,000. Amount of forest officially have already got their minds made up. They are not protected in Canada, 2.6 percent. This is what is here to hear some of the things, and sometimes the very interesting: the amount of forest officially truth will live and die on one word. In an issue like protected in Brazil, 9.4 percent. They have a better this, it is very important that people speak their track record. On that note, I am finished my hearts about what they feel about a certain thing presentation. that is happening. In my case, I have tried to go to places like Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Meadow Lake and live with blockaders and live Sullivan. Would you mind taking a question? with native elders and see the effects of clear-cut Mr.Sullivan: No. forestry for myself. I have made an audio-visual. I 410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

have it available. I would like to present it to you available to all of you in the governments and all sometime. I find it a little bit lamentable that you political parties and all walks of life to say we cannot see that. I wouldnot want to do it while I talk should watch what we are doing with what we now, but I would certainly like somebody to see it have. Try and make it work; try and make it do. If because it brings home to Manitoba some of the we just say we have to consume it as fast as we concerns that I see happening that are very can or else we are going to be poor people, I think important to talk about, to change maybe just an you will find we are going to be poorpeople. That is attitudetowards our resourc es. a poordecision. We have to manage resources. The thingsthat we inherit, that are expressly held We are all environmentalists;even Conrad Black for us, written in stone, thatwe have parks--that is is an environmentalist. His environment is money. a sacred trust. I can see why nativepeople are very He has to protect his money; he does it very well. I nervous about us because we sometimes want to would not be surprised if he is buying out a lot of change some kinds of sacred trust that we have. I things, a lot of companies in the northernstates so think personally there is nothing wrong with taking that when they move up and move into our a certainarea, making apark; and, if it is uranium or shopping malls, all the Toronto people who go whatever is underthe ground, I find nothing wrong bankrupt, he will be there with hi�e is a good with saving that for the future. Some time if that is environmentalist. all gone, maybe we have it in one of our provincial I do not know if that world really should happen parks, and maybe we need it to save the world. that way. I hope thereare more diligent people and I do not know, I find something very sick, too, more aware politicians and more people who live about people who log and people who mine and up to their name. If you are Conservative, you want to go to provincial parks just because there should conservesomething. If you are Progressive, are roads there. It is very easy. It is lazy to do that. you should think of the future. Exploration is also paid for by the Canadian I have a real problem with Crown land and how taxpayer. It is. Development grants. There are very people can log and mine and "disneyize" things that few people lose money. Even in British Columbia, are there for peopleto enjoy. It is somethingpeople with those people that said they spent all that go to to get away from the crush of our consuming money, the government is going to have to pay society. lt is something very important. Not enough them some sortof money; there are some kinds of women, not enough children, not enoughelders of agreements with people to do business, to look and our societyor culture go to these places or can go do business in Canada. Everybody does business, to these places. and very few people, if they try hard, lose money. I have no sympathy with cottage owners who Some people go broke because they mismanage, have to pay a little bit extra. I am sorry. I cannot perhaps, their money, but there are exploration affordto live in a cabin. I do not really want to. I feel costs, development grants, and tax write-offs that sorry that they are crushed out on some kinds of allow these thingsto happen. things. We are very generous with people who want to I would recommend to you to look to Landsat do business in resource management. We are not evaluation of our forests right now. There is a a stingypeople. We do not hide our resources. It is satellite going over our heads every certain amount very open. You can see 2.6 percent. We do not of time doing evaluation. I have come from protect that. It looks like we are fools, and Saskatchewan; I have come from clear cut; and I sometimesI think we might be. have seen how devastating it is: 300-acre bites. * (2340) From the Legislature to the Hudson's Bay to Main Street to what used to be the CNR station in one In taking to amend, even the name of this bill is single day, it is levelled, levelled, gone. Just somewhat offensive, because it has to do with the imagine that. It can be done. Feller bunches can future. Someone handed us these parks for the grab three trees at a time and just work. They do future, and we are amending that future. You like 16 men out of work. cannot amend the future, but you can try and work on the future and make the future not so Those people in British Columbia are torn catastrophic. There are lots of signs and signals between how they are going to log; they have July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 1

logged it so fast. I urge you in the control of this These are dangerous times, and the economy is natural resource: it takes seven generations to very, very tight. I am speaking to you because I am grow a tree that is ready for harvesting. The Cree unemployed as well. I do not make enough money have seven generations built into their concept of to own a cottage, and I am glad I do not own one what you do. If you cannot create something that because I would be torn apart by that decision of will last seven generations, you do not do it. trying to amend the bill for a few dollars and cents when people all over the place are out of work. Seven generations is a really goodstar ting point for something that you want to look at because So I understand how your government is being seven generations ago, it was a really old world, an torn aparton this. If you listen to the numbers that old world, and we have gone very, very fast. We you have not heard, I would stress thatin the future have to be very prudent right now with ozone, with you are going to see more of this, more than 180 everything that affects the total of humanity. This is people the first night, a big list, 160 the next night, and most of them falling away because they see no joke. the government's hands are tied. They have made This is an environmentalist talking about human their decision, and they want to run with that life and the quality of human life. I think personally decision. for every tree that you take and turn into toilet If you take a look at the number of people who do paper, I think that there is another signature on the vote, we are being left out, and when people who cancer ward very, very soon down the road. I have do not vote then feel that they have not a voice, it is heard for every person there is a tree. The native going to be a sad day for people who do not people say that as well. It is very important to look connect with their government and connect with at other cultures and how they have handled what majorities and do the right thing with the resources they have had in order to live to the future. that we have. Again, I would like to really stress that you look at I would like to answer questions, too, about Landsat evaluation of all our forest in Manitoba. I do clear-cut forestry. I would like to answer about a mill not know how expensive that would be, but I think if where they put $300 million of taxpayers' money, we could take a look at what we have and look at and this is not a friendly government, the how to manage that, I am certain that any Conservatives, this is an NDP government. They government can handle that. Any political majority took $300 million of public money, put it into a mill can take a look at that and work with it. and made less than 300 jobs. I suggest to you that I am not saying that logging is a heinous crime. you could have taken $1 million and given it to There are a lot of us that are here because our every one of the wood lot people, made millionaires mothers and fathers were in that kind of industry. I overnight of 300 people, and they might have just come from a towncalled Flin Flon. I was born in Rin managed that resource, but as it is, it is being stripped, literally. Flon. In '41 they had a son, and I came from a place that 1-my father is buried in that town. He died * (2350) when I was nine, and I really have a memory of So ask me questions, please, about clear-cut, northern life, and I really am grateful for that. The about myself, and aboutthe future. largest open pit zinc mine in the world is now finite, in my lifetime. My father died at an early age Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. because of just maybe lifestyle, heredity, smoking Jacobson. Doesthe committee have any questions of Mr. Jacobson? No? Thank you very much. and living in the northernwilds. Mr. Jacobson: Can I make one joke because I do But in my lifetime, in my half century on this not like to be so heavy. Earth, I have seen things run dry up North. I am hearing now that logging companies, mining Mr. Chairperson: Go ahead, Mr. Jacobson. companies-there is no more room for them to look Mr. Jacobson: This is in the paper today with for things than in our parks? Are they really asking Herfst getting his hair cut. I suggest that Mr. for this? Can you not see that perhaps we need to Laurendeau-and I hope you do not get mad at take a look at what is available and how we me-has a better idea of clear-cut forestry than manage it? Herfstdoes. 412 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

Mr.Chair person: And mine will not growback. I suggest the best we can all hope for, all of us Mr. Jacobson: Yes, that is right. That is what I making presentations and those responsible for a mean. I am going to run now because-- final outcome, would be that good common sense will prevail and thatthis act will be designed to allow Mr.Chai rperson: Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. I will Manitobans to care for their parks as parks should enjoy our conversations in the hall later. be cared for. I will admit this is an ambiguous Mr. GeorgeHolland. Duncan Stewart. suggestion open to many subjective Ms. Diane Cox (on behalf of Duncan Stewart): interpretations, but I doubt if there are many people Mr. Chairperson? in this room or in this city or in this country who would not agree there are some things you just do Mr.Chairperson: Yes. not do in parks or you must give them another Ms. Cox: My name is Diane Cox, and I would like name. You must call them something else. You to read Duncan Stewart's presentation. He is cannot call them parks. unable to be here tonight. I believe Bill 41 came within one shortphrase of Mr. Chairperson: Are you on the list, Ms. Cox? being an excellent parks act. There is no doubt a Ms.Cox: No. tremendous amount of work went into the Mr. Chairperson: No? So you will be presenting preparation of this bill, and real efforts were made for Mr. Stewart. Is it the will of the committee that to correctpast mistakes and to prevent future ones. we hear- This act would have management plans put in place for each of our provincial parks by law, and An Honourable Member:Agreed. these plans would need a process of public Mr. Chairperson: Okay, go ahead. Your name hearings in order for them to be changed. It would was? spell out a set of land use categories for four Ms.Cox: Diane Cox. different types of parks and, once designated, each park would be always defined according to its Mr. Chairperson: Diane Cox. Okay, we will just category. There is a great deal of care evident in pass the presentation. You had a written the wording of this act to ameliorate some presentation, I believe. situations of past abuse, but one unfortunate Ms.Cox : Yes, it was submittedlast evening. phrase negates it all. Mr.Chairperson: When did he hand it in? These few words, which I am sure you have all Ms. Cox: Last evening, at the beginning of the heard condemnedad infinitum, are so out of place evening, seven o'clock or so. This would be in a bill settingforth principles of park management, Duncan Stewart as a private citizen. I, at first, could not believe theywere there, but sure enough, when I got my copy of Bill 41 , there it is, in Mr. Chairperson: You can just carry on with the presentation. We will have some copies made the second paragraph, "and appropriate economic after, and we will distribute them. opportunities are provided.w In the statement of purpose, "to provide economic opportunities in Ms.Cox: Okay, thankyou. accordance with park classifications and land use Mr.Chai rperson: Carry on, Ms. Cox. categories.w Ms.Cox: First, I would wantto thank our Manitoba I have since found out by economic opportunities government for making these hearings possible they do not mean hot dog stands in the first group and for giving me the opportunity to comment on of trees inside the park. No, they mean making it Bill 41 , the proposed new parks act for our possible to cut down the grove and all the trees. province. This is, of course, the essence of They do not mean those opportunities for democracy, giving each citizen who wants to the employment inherent in parks now, things like the chance to comment on legislation which will have a chance to guide people through some of our significant effect on his or her life. wilderness scenery which need take second place Each of us, nodoubt, wonders what effect, if any, to nowhere else on Earth. No, they mean making it our comments will haveon the deliberations of the possible to clear cut and to mine and to search for Legislature and on the final structure of thisact . oil in themiddle of the scenery. July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413

Such activities are very far outside the forests, a constituency not mutually exclusive, parameters of those acceptable in a real park. You could peacefully and co-operativelyexist. will find few places on Earth which allow them to Another attack often made on people like me is this extent, and you will find nowhere on Earth this. Our opponents, almost always out of a lack of where they are mandated by law, as this act would knowledge or with an agenda they prefer unknown, do. It calls for a sad kind of redefinition of the word accuse us of always being negative, of being "park," a redefinition which will be, if this act against everything and of having no constructive becomes law, ours alone in Manitoba. I might add, criticisms to offer. We are called, as I have said, as a personal aside, he may be thinking of Polo antijob as well as antidevelopment, antihunting, Park or Tyndall Park or some other such untree-like always in opposition to everything. This is also park. false, as we are for clean air, for an Earth Henry David Thoreau had some advice which unaffected as possible by our activities. We are for the writers of this act could have profited from . He a new parks act, butnot this one. said: •our life is fritteredaway by detail ...Sim plify, I have already offered one improvement, delete simplify." Good advice for us all, even writers of the reference to economic opportunity. Now I will presentations to legislative committees, but just offer another one. There are certain areas inside think of how great an improvement the application present provincial park boundaries which have of this dictum could have made to Bill 41 . If this been so impacted by industry, they can be said to offending reference to economic opportunity were no longer hold the values necessary for a discarded, we would not need so many meaningful park. Two such areas can be found in management plans and land use categories and Nopiming Provincial Park and in Duck Mountain. classifications and designations and restrictions. Why couldwe not remove these areas from park We would just need to worry about caring for our parks as places for plant andanimal protection and designation and trade them for wilder lands so far preservation, as places for the protection of relatively untouched? Such places as the Roaring distinctive habitat and land forms, as places for River and Shell River watersheds in the Duck human recreation. Mountains and the Bell River and Steeprock River canyons in the Porcupines would meet this Those who believe, as I do, that we should set description and would be much better suited for some land aside inviolate are frequently park status than logged-overlands. condemned as antijob, as pro-wildlife and against people. This is, of course, not true as anything but If the kind of sustainable forestry I have spoken a cursory short-term analysis of our principles of is practised in the lands traded from parks, we would soon show. This is certainlythe case if one could have the best of both worlds. The only thing examines our position on the logging issue. This preventing such workable compromise is the position, stated very briefly, is this. We need certain intransigence of the environmental community and significant areas set aside from all commerce, the determination of the provincial government to logging included, but forestry is of course a remain rooted in the past. valuable and necessary industry and must be * (0000) allowed to continue to prosper. Just as an aside, but a relevant one I think, we all We know from the examples set in other know about the recent flooding in the Mississippi countries that proper forestry methods can result in and Missouri river basins and the terrible trauma an industry sustainable indefinitely. Surely, it is in this has caused the Earth as well as the awful toll in the best interests of Manitoba loggers that such. human suffering and property damage. Is there practices be instituted here. It is not in the best anyone who doubts this flooding would not have short-term interest of multinational forestry been so calamitous if the upper Mississippi basin in companies that this take place, however. Such Minnesota still had its cover of dense forest and if methods are more labour intensive and require the tall grass prairie in Iowa and southeastern North more capital and more management skills. With the Dakota had not been so decimated? The forest and right kind of government support, both the prairie are remarkably efficient blotters of heavy environmentalists and those who work in the rainfall. 414 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993

What about our own flooding in west-central away at my objectives every chance I get. Manitoba? Would it have been so severe if more Bureaucratic shortsightedness is, I admit, a careful attention had been paid to leaving a subjective phenomenon; those in agreement with a protective cover in the numerous river valleys bureaucracy's goalswill think it is seeing very well involved in this disaster? Land left idle is never indeed. But I think a strong case can be made for unproductive land. Careful, strategic preservation the position that our government structure, as of wilderness areas is always beneficial to the pertains to parks, is badly out of alignment with Earth and to its inhabitants. globally accepted principles of park management. In my work with the Sierra Club I have travelled Our parks are, as we all know, at present over much of the United States, and I think I have managedby the Department of Natural Resources. seen what can happen if you ever allow the dollar They are a twigon a department treeconsisting of to become the governing factor in your decision. a forestry branch, a mining branch and a wildlife Their wild lands are gone except for isolated branch. I believe the Parks Branch is regularly islands. There are very few places you can go in overwhelmed and intimidated by these other larger, the lower 48 and see no evidence of our industry. more powerful bodies. I believe these other more While this is too bad for the Earth and for the influential branches necessarily have a mandate to Americans, it does provide Manitobans with an generate economic activity which parks by opportunity, an opportunity we have been definition should not have. I believe as a result abysmally slow in recognizing. There is a great and decisions are made regarding our parks which are growing hunger in the U.S. and around the world for politically motivated and therefore nearly always wild places, for the chance to get away from their wrong. appalling cities and seek the serenity and silence of The closest analogy I can find to all this is that of the wilderness. We can, so far at least, provide a certain fairy tale. Our Parks department reminds them this in spades, but not if they do not know we me of an orphan Cinderellaabused by not two, but exist, and they do not. I have been asked what three, ugly sisters. And this is not their fault. The coast Manitoba is on. I have been asked what state "ugly sisters" are doing what they should be doing. it is the capital of, and when I tell them we have in I think they could be doing it better, but it is their job Manitoba a huge freshwater inland sea the size of to develop our forestry and our mining and Denmark, I doubt if they believe me. "manage" our wildlife. But it is not our Parks We are missing a boat that could carry many department's job to make money from our parks, dollars to our province and do it with minimal harm but rather to protect them.It is certainly not their job to the Earth. We are making sure everyone knows to be apologists for industry as they are now too about our hydroelectricity and our lumber and our often required to be. pulpwood. It is at least arguable to say we are So is this an insoluble dilemma? Well, I do not supporting industry fast becoming anachronistic in think so. I think there is an obvious solution better a rapidly changing world and neglecting, indeed for all concernedand surely better for our provincial working against, an industry perfectly suited for parks. I believe our parks should be cared for by a tomorrow. Crown corporation whose only purpose is to bring So who or what is to blame for all this? How can our Manitobaparks into the 20th Centurybefore the it be that any government can be so shortsighted 21st begins. as to offer something as counterproductive, as What a differencethis change would make. Free oxymoronic as a parks act mandating economic from the control of a minister who, because of the development in parks? Well, I think the answer is realities inherent in his cabinet charge, could not threefold: an apathetic citizenry, a myopic adequately protect our parks even if he wanted to, bureaucracy and a seriously flawed system of free from the influence of more powerful parks management. bureaucracies whose every action is antithetical to Public unconcernwith environmen tal matter� not those necessary for park protection, free from the related to their immediate back yards is a · pernicious influence of the office of sustainable frustration I have never learned to deal with. My development our parks could be, as they should only defence against it is to persistently hammer be, a standard for the country instead of a July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 415

laughingstock. It all comes down to personal strong parks act, which spelled out real park choices as it usually does. protection in unambiguous terms, would be a clear signal times have changed for the better. Please I have spent a great deal of my life, man and boy, help to make that happen. walking around in the Turtle Mountains. If it is possible to love a piece of land, and I am sure this As a short postscriptum, I would like to add that committee will agree that it is, I love those hills. the comment by Dr. Rajotte last night, I think, They are a part ofme. It was a threat to the integrity expressed what Duncan Stewart was trying to say of the Turtle Mountain Provincial Park, which is a about the importance of being unam biguous, that beautiful exemplar of the unique quality of the the ambiguity of the act is a recipe for future Turtles, which first got me involved in conflict, she said. environmental advocacy and evangelism. But there To make that pointclear, tonight we heard from a has never been such a threat to this little park as I mining company that, for instance, in response to see in this proposed new act. Mrs. Carstairs' question about would they be Because of its size and location,Turtle Mountain looking for opportunities everywhere in the can never be thought of as a wilderness park. It province-if they wasted their time looking under would, under the terms of this act, be no doubt the Health Sciences Centre and thenhad to be told designated a natural park, and this designation that they could not, but they had hoped all along leaves it vulnerable to its assured destruction. that maybe they could convince somebody later to change the categorization if they found something This parkis 72 square miles. There are presently valuable, you have just wasted that much of that seven oil wells pumping away inside its company's time and their resources. boundaries,and there are, orwere until recently, at least two applications for logging permits on hold, I think it is in the interests of all concerned to awaiting categorization ofthe park. make the guidelines very clear. Thank you. It does not take much imagination to see where Mr. Chai rperson: Thank you very much for your this would leave a 72 square mile park, and I would presentation, Ms. Cox. Are there any questions? If ask the members of this committee to think about a not, thank you. special place I am sure they must have-what will * (0010) become of it if this act becomes law? Then Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I want to thank Ms. transpose this hurt to every Manitoban, and it soon Cox forher presentation and a very thoughtful one. becomes clear the immense harm this Bill 41 could Certainly I recall another presenter outlining the do to our province. number of different parks we have, and I believe So to sum up, I would respectfully ask this there were something like nine natural parks or committee to seriously consider deleting from this seven natural parks in the province. Certainly, the bill any reference to mandated economic reference in here to the Turtle Mountains is a good opportunity inside our provincial parks. There is no one. It references how difficult it will be for small doubt, I believe, that such enshrining of this parks to remain viable if we follow, I guess, the principle in a parks act would effectively destroy proposal in Bill 41 . many of our parks. It would certainly place in What I wanted to ask you though was your ideas jeopardy all but a few. on how to trade off, and I think that is theword you Please consider inclusion in our new act a used, or that was used in the paper, areas that are restructuring of our Parks Branch to allow it to currently, for example, being logged in provincial operate free from the uncertainties and frustrations parks with other areas. I have for a long time of the political arena. Please remind our advocated, and it refers to your long-term, government that euphemism foolsno one for long. short-term kind of thinking, that we should actually Calling a clear-cut a natural park is a case in point. be using currently marginal agricultural land for tree Please make clear that rhetoric is only a very farming, that if we started now to take marginal short-term substitute for concrete action. We have agricultural land and plant treeson it, that 40 or 50 had many statements in support of Manitoba's years from now we would not have to disturb our ecological integrity from this government but very, wilderness parks or areas that might be designated very little real action to back them up. A good, as parks, but it takes a 30 or a 40 or a 50-year time 416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

frame to do it. I am wondering whether there is any Mr. Gord Pazernluk (Private CIUzen): That was sense or you are aware of any other areas, other close enough, Mr. Chairperson. jurisdictionsthat are doing thatkind of thing. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, sir. You had a Ms.Cox: Well, I am personally not. I am sure if Mr. writtenpresenta tion? Stewart were here tonight, he could probably Mr. Pazemluk: Yes. answerthat question better. Certainly, I think it is comm endable to try and restore marginal Mr. Chairperson: Just go ahead, sir. agricultural lands to a purpose they once served Mr. Pazemluk: My name is Gord Pazerniuk. I am a better which might be wetlands, which might be cottage owner on private land in the Whiteshell. forests. I do not think that impinges on the decision Just one point, if you would bear with me, I may to protect what parks we have, but I am not aware make some just minor editorial changes due to the of other jurisdictions, I am sorry. rushed typing earlier. Mr. Storie : What I see is a continuing battle, and Good morning, Mr. Minister, members of the you mentioned in your paper about the committee. I oppose certain sections in the inconsistency between having economic proposed bill for several reasons, the chief of which development and now enshrining it in legislation, are in the sections dealing with service fees, but of course, what happened, particularly with Sections 18(1) through to 22(4). mining and forestry, is that it pre-dated our parks in Firstly, I believe these sections are really not some cases by decades, many, many decades. So thorough nor are they clear, at least to me. Indeed, it was sort of accommodating them to begin with, they appear to offer only a shallow justification for and the only way out of it is to find alternatives, and the imposition of a fee for various services including if they are long term, then they are long term . the cost of administering these services. Yet it If it takes us 40 years to get to a point where we offersno guarantees of say in what servicesare to can manage a logging industry completely outside be actually rendered or provided. We as of natural areas, then we should startnow, because landowners are given the opportunity for I do not think we are ever going to get past that consultation and for review, but after todayif we do conflict because of the economic necessities in not agree, to whom do we address our concerns? some cases that seem to prevail over concern for Do we phone the bureaucrats uptown? Whom or the environment and preservation of ecological what department will listen? Once the machine is in areas. place and operating it will be impossibleto stop. Mr. Ms.Cox : I know recently there have been a couple Minister, these sections also mention some type of of examples-! believe one is in the Yukon-of hierarchy to collect these fees. I oppose hiring more forestry companies who have donated their rights people to administrate at the expense of the people to the lands that they hadbeen given access to log. who are really at the grassroots, landowners and They get great coverage in the press for doing that, the field workers. so I think there are payoffs. We perhaps need to Secondly, Mr. Minister, the sections are silent in approach those companies with a greater spirit in the procedure for appeal or for representation. Is mind of future generations to perhaps give them the democratic processforgo tten? In short,how is that opportunityand, as I think you are suggesting, the private citizen who really foots the bill, who mark areas that they specifically can have access expectssomething for his shrinking dollar, who has to. been in most cases forced to cut back his or her Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your wages, guaranteed a say? In this bill it is strikingly presentation, Ms. Cox. absent. Stuart Jansson, Cherry White, Eileen Marvin, Thirdly, on analyzing the various sections again, John Kith, Ross Framingham. Gordon Hanson has I am stunned that my only rights are that I can already been heard. Wes Wasylnuk, Diane review financial statements and review the level Wasylnuk, George Harris, S. Olbrecht, Gord and cost of providing services and of the level of Pazerniuk. You can correct me on the the fee, but what can I really do? Not much, Mr. pronunciation, I do not mind. Minister,and this is not right. July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 417

Fourthly, I have a great fear of Section 21 (1 ) Lewandoski, and my wife, Verna, and I are private which states that fees do not have to be related to land owners in Nutimik Lake in Whiteshell services.Mr. Minister,this is quite clear, pay but do Provincial Park since 1968. In my presentation I not expect anything. How absurd. A fee by want this committee to know that I agree there definition, and I quote Webster's, is a payment, should be some kind of regulation governing the service or homage due a superior, or a payment use of provincial parks and service fees, et cetera. asked or given for professional services, What I am opposed to in Bill 41 is it gives this ad mission, et cetera. It is clear the scholars government a blank cheque to charge what they understand the nature of a fee. I pray this want like they are now doing with land-leased committee understands it also. cottage owners. There is no consultation. Thefees Lastly, Mr. Minister, failure to pay these fees sets are set, a bill is sent to the leased cottage owners. in motion a sinisterprocedure including registration To date there have been no discussions taking of a debt and a lien and an interest charge to be place with private land owners to set servicefees. determined by the government. I could actually Overthe past number of years I have owned this leave these earthly bounds owing a huge debt for property, not once has this government or the service fees and interest for services never previous government sent the private land owners received. Would that not be an irony. a letter asking if they would like to meet and In summary, Mr. Minister, I urge you to strike out, discuss service fees. In 1984, thegovernment sent at least to amend, Sections 18(1) through to 22(4) the first yearly bill to private landowners for service to provide for fair and equitable treatment. To put it fees. What service? To date, these services have simply, no service, no fee, or simple service, small never been defined. fee. Make that quite clear. And Mr. Minister, give Back in 1970, we formed an association on our those affected a democratic say in the matter. Do road at Nutimik Lake at Howk's Point Road. We not leave it to be ironed out later by the held regular meetings with all cottage owners and bureaucrats. They do not often listen or are too agreed to pay X number amount of dollars, as remote from the scene. Tell me here that you will required, for road repairs, snow plowing, sand for amend these sections. our beaches and dock facilities, et cetera. Mr. Minister, members of the committee, I also With the water level on the Winnipeg River offer your government something for nothing, my constantly changing our shoreline, which was badly advice, free of charge, no charge. Just ask me or eroded, from 1968, '70 and '71 , we probably lost 20 those people who are affected by the levies what they want and how much they would be willing to to 25 feet of our shoreline. We invited Parks Branch pay. Just ask. Do not force those who get nothing people to our meetings to discuss some of the or very little into the stellar black hole from which concern due to the water level, et cetera. They there is no return or recourse. Tell us now that you attended one or two meetings. They said at that will address these concerns. Are you listening, Mr. time, all you people have to do is pay for five loads Minister? Respectfully submitted by myself, Gord of stone and the Parks Branch will provide the rest Pazerniuk. of the stones required to fix the shore. At that time, Bannock Point rehab in the Whiteshell would Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, sir. Are provide the manpower to place the stone, to protect there any questions of the presenter? If not, thank the shoreline. Well, some 20, 30 loads later, and 20 you very much for your presentation. years, we are still waiting for that service. Chris Olbrecht, Garth Guttormson, C.K. Brook, Mr. Chairperson, to this day, no one from the Leonard and VernaLewandos ki? Parks or government has come back to consult or Do you have a written presentation? ask if we need any services. Over the years, our * (0020) road association has spent thousands of dollars on shore repairs, roads, road maintenance, sand for Mr. Leonard Lewandoski (Private Citizen): No, I our beaches. Yes, we all pay our share in provincial do not have one. and federal taxes which go to maintaining our Mr. Chairperson, members of the committee, parks, roads, et cetera, whether we use the parks ladies and gentlemen, my name is Leonard or not. 418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

In Bill 41 , you address service fees, Section We were asked to pay $2.70 for the bill, and it is not 18(2), to review the level and the costof providing really the money that is the issue. A number of us services and what fee should be charged or felt that when a bill is under discussion as part of provided. There is no indication that consultation the democratic process, it really should be freely would be meaningful as the minister would have available to the members of the public to the final decision on the fees. Mr. Chairperson and encourage discussion. members of this committee, maybe you should be looking at increasing user fees in campgrounds The other item is that on the July 8, 1993, a letter and trailer parks. They are the ones who get the was sent to Mr. Enns requesting clarification of services, new washrooms, showers, new beaches, Section 9(2). We have not yet received that playgrounds, et cetera and extra summer staff, clarification and look forward to hearing the minister because leased cottage owners and private provide a statement in response to this cottage owners have to provide their ow n services. presentation perhaps. Section 22(1 ), 22(2), 22(3) of Bill 41 addresses To go to the substance of a very short brief then, certificates of debt and liens imposed on private The Defenders of Nopiming are a public interest landowners and how the government intends to group focusing on environmental issues, and the collect these fees. Well, here again, I am not organization arises from a reaction to the logging opposed to paying my fair share for servicesif they licence issued to Abitibi-Price last year. We found are provided by agreement or negotiations with public enthusiasm for our direct intervention in private land owners. Mr. Chairperson and members environmental issues to be very high. of the committee, can I or any person in this The introduction of a park system plan, the call province of Manitoba go to this government and for park management plans, the orderly zoning of say we want to collect from you and your members parks, except for nontourism economic of the House back debts that were made in development obviously, the provision of park previous years? No, I cannot because� there is no reserves, including a five-year designation, all have law holding any minister responsible for in them the seeds of what could have been a really governme�nts who make deficits. topnotch parks act. In addition, the reference to the I say to the minister, withdraw this section of Bill principles of sustainable development in the 41 . Based on my past experience as a union Preamble is very welcome. president for over 25 years, to resolve an issue, it is better to negotiate it. I urge this government to sit We point out, however, that the government's down and discuss and negotiate an agreement with use of terms in various contexts, including this private landowners or private landowners' parks bill, is in our opinion incorrect. Unfortunately, associations. That way, Mr. Minister, we will all be the issue of economic development introduced in winners. Thank you very much. the bill is an overriding concern, and we call for the shelving of the total bill to allow re-examination of Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your the circumstances. presentation, Mr. Lewandoski. We will now call on Mr. Hendrik Herfst. Do you have a written Not including the only slightly obscured presentation, sir? manipulation in the process of the round table Mr. Hendrlk Herfst (The Defenders of discussion on Natural Lands and Special Places, Noplmlng): I leftit with the- the writing of the bill has been a very successful operation. Unfortunately, the patient died. Mr.Chairperson: Yes, it is being passed out now. At the risk of sounding patronizing, which is not Mr.Herfst : Right. It is actually not a written brief, it the intent, we would like to define our use of the is a series of points. I hope that the substance of terms natural and sustainable development. them might be of some assistance. It certainlywas Webster's was at hand, and I am sure that Oxford intended that they crystallize some of the concerns is very similar. The definition of natural is thatwe had. satisfactory for us as (a) growing as a native and Mr.Chai rperson: Go ahead, Mr. Herfst. without cultivation; (b) living in or as if in a state of Mr. Herfst:I would just like to raise a small point of nature, untouched by the influence of civilization principle about having to pay for a copy of Bill 41 . and society. July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 419

Sustainable development is defined in our natural beauty. Many people in Canada, including common future as the assurancethat development foresters, biologists andeven conservationists,talk meets the needs of the present without about Finland as a country where no conflict compromising the ability of future generations to between forest management and wildlife exists, but meet their own needs. It continues. The concept where sustainable forestry keeps everybody implies limitations imposed by technology, social happy. Such harmony is a dream in Canada, too, organization and by the ability of the biosphere to and numerous times I have heard Finland referred absorb the effects of human activities. These to as the great example which Canada should limitations make the case for a limit to growth in follow and learn from. Unfortunately, all that Finland contrast to industry's effortsto tum theconcept into is a good example of is a big ecocatastrophe. the growth of limits. Except for a few little patches, there is no virgin * (0030) forest leftin Finland. The general public has for a century perceived A conservation plan was proposed. The plan parks as natural places. Our common future now included all the most valuable old-growth forest in spells out a pragmatic purpose for parks as places the southern half of Finland which accounts for only to preserve ecosystems and maintain biodiversity. .53 percent of the total area of forests. Even this There are many painful choices to be made to minimal area has resulted in major complaints from achieve sustainable development, and the logging companies and municipalities concerned, minister, if nothing else, has certainly shown and the future of these last patches looks bleak. courage. Having lived in Canada for almost a year and Bill 41 seems to try to be all things to all people. travelled across the country, I have been very It wants to give preservation a place and to give impressed by the immense relatively untouched logging and mining the same place, to eat the cake wilderness areas that cover most of your country. and to have it, too. It wants to deal with the Do not sell your unique natural heritage for convoluted and contradictory issues of cottages short-term economical reasons. You are and be fiscally responsible as well. In the end, it Canadians. You are Manitobans. This is your wants to be too many things and it fails. It has country and your province, both of which, you have generated opposition, alienation and controversy. good reasons to be proud of. We feel the bill should be shelved and re-examined Do not be the kind of fools we have been in in a work-together atmosphere. Mr. Enns could do h the province a great service by setting the tone for Rnland. learn from our errors. Do not repeat t em. the resolution of the conflicts. I hope you realize what long-term decisions you are facing. Make up your minds in favour of a great I have a number of letters. We have been in wilderness you are privileged to have. You can correspondence with a number of organizations never get it back if you sell it. internationally, but I think just the one is of substance. I might mention, one is from Canton, Our discussions on the bill have, in large part, New York, Wild Earth,and the other one is from the been fairly pragmatic, but I think that those of you American Ecological Research Institute in Fort who read my letter to the editor will recognize that I Collins, Colorado, But it is a letter from Kaisa felt that one of the problems with the bill was that it Junninen, who has just recently spenta year here lacked the vision of some of the sections of The in the province and who is a resident, recently Park lands Act and lost some of the poetry. returned,to Joensuu in Finland. Theexce rpts that I I think it is important that, in addition to the issues found relevant are similar to my experiences. You that we have raised in resource management and probably noticed from my name that I am not a in terms of bio-diversity and ecosystem native Canadian. I am a Canadian by choice and preservation, we recognize that parks are also to very proud of it. My experiences would be feel spring, to consort brieflyand feel the stirrings of somewhat similar in a way, and I might make a life in the warm shelter of wooden ribs. We cannot comment on that afterwards. be preoccupied only with the business and forget She writes that her homeland is Finland, a the subtle romance, the meaningful intimacy of a country which is knownfor its vast boreal forest and natural cradle. Thank you. 420 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. L'esprit et Ia lettre de Ia loi. Herfst, for your presentation this evening. Monsieur le ministre, Monsieur le president, I will now call on Lea Scott, Denis Pereux, Mesdames et Messieurs du comite, Mesdames et Prasad Gowdar, Kim Monson. These are second Messieurs du public, je vous remercie de me calls, by the way, now. Bill Kocay, Ed Johanson, donner !'occasion de donner quelques retlexions Margaret Reid, Gloria Koch, Pamela Koch, Walter quant au projetde loi 41 . Fast, Mr. and Mrs. Atkins, R.A. Mitchell, Ray En tant que membra du Club Sierra, je suis Knowles, Vallen and Irene Melnick, John M. soucieux de toute loi qui pourrait toucher les Walker, Mary and Robin Carpenter, Peter espaces naturelles et les pares qui existent pour Thiessen, Jack McMahon, Donald RobertManych, conserver cesespaces. Et comma nous le savons Bernice Hilton, Mr. Joe Kelly. tous, toute loi existe en deux parties: d'abord, il y a We have the writtenpresentation here. Mr. Kelly, I' esprit dans lequel la loi est ecrite et, ensuite, il y a we have your presentation handedout. You could Ia lettre de Ia loi, c'est-a-dire, un texte qui sera startwhenever you are ready. interprets pourdonner une forme juridique a I'esprit Mr.Joseph Kelly (Private Citizen): I have sort of de la loi. decided that I would like to thank the committee L'esprit dans lequelle le present projet de loi est and the organization which it works under for con�u semble, au premier abord, etre tout a fait allowing me to spend ten and a haH hours sitting celui de Ia conservation et de Ia protection de Ia here waiting to givemy little speech. I am not going nature. Toutefois, c'est Ia lettre de Ia loi qui revele to bother reading it. You have it in front of you; you le manque de volonte de vouloir en respecter can read it. I feel a littlesilly in the sense that it was I'esprit. a simple presentation that I was supposed to say D'abord, il y a !'article 5, le role des pares because my grandmother has had this cottage for provinciaux: a) de conserver les ecosystemes; b) ages, and they are deciding to charge them money de sauvegarder des ressources naturelles; c) for servicesthey do not receive. d'offrir desactivites educatives. My grandmother is well into her 80s, and she Mais, c'est l'alinea d) qui jette tout par Ia fenetre could notdo this. There is no way she could spend car le texte deviant tout a coup caoutchouteux: 1 0 hours sitting here waiting for this. Other than "d'offrir des possi bilites dans le domaine that, thankyou. I have learned a lot, and I can see economique qui s'harmonisent avec Ia why thegove rnmentis in the situation it is in. Thank classification des pares et des categories you. d'utilisationdes terres". Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Mr. Kelly, for your Si l'on poursuit Ia lecture du projet de loi. Au presentation. paragraphe 7(2) "Classification des pares Stewart Corbett, Ruth Johnson, Donald provinciaux", l'alinea e) est encore une fois une Thompson, Gerald and Marlene Johnson, Ma�orie clause echappatoire: "tout autre type de pare V. Stevenson, Robert Henley, Ellen Carpenter, provincial que le reglement peut preciser". Done, Horst KauHuss,Robert Hutton. on pourrait passer un reglement pour le pare de Now, these twoare Martin Toews-they are not pate et papier, ou le pare de developpement on your list by the way. They just registered this durable par Ia coupe a blanc de forets pour Ia evening. Martin Toews, and the next one is creation d'un produitdestine a Ia poubelle. Jean-Philippe Sourisseau, and Mr. Sourisseau's Le mernabut semble etre vise par le paragraphe presentation will be in French for the committee 7(3): "Categories d'utilisation des terres", alinea g) members' information. "toute autre categorie que le reglement peut preciser". Et voila un autre sapin qui passe. On Vous pouvez commencer,Monsieur Sourisseau. precise n'importe quoi. La categorie des terres [Translation] reservees a !'exploitation des societas minieres et You may begin, Mr. Sourisseau. forestieres qui ne se soucient guere de Ia vie et M. Jean-Phlllppe Sourisseau (Private Citizen): l'avenir des gens sur place? Pourquoi pas? Afterwards I will just sort of recap it in English. It is Encore plus tard arrive-t-on aux reglements du not long. ministre,que le ministre peut prendre des mesures July 21 , 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 421

concernantles activites dans les parespro vinciaux, letter of the law reveals a lack of will to respect the Ia delivrance de licences et de permis pour ces spirit of the law. activites ainsi que les conditions, le renouvellement To begin with, there is Section 5, "Purposes of et l'annulation des licences et des perm is. provincial parks": (a) to conserve ecosystems; (b) Et si monsieur le ministre est un jour trop fatigue to preserve natural resources; (c) to provide pour lire Ia demande d'ouvrir un abattoir de gibier, educational opportunities. et si monsieur le ministre trouve qu'une foret vierge But it is paragraph (d) that throws everything out est d'autant plus belle quand elle est plantee en of kilter because the wording suddenly grows lignes droites? Bon, d'accord, il semble peu murky: "(d) to provide economic opportunities in probable qu'un ministre puisse faire un tel abus de accordance with park classifications and land use Ia discretion que lui permettrait le texte de cette loi. categories." Mais, parfois, il pourrait arriver que le ministre Let us continue on reading the bill. In subsection charge des pares et de leur designation soit plus 7(2), "Classification of provincial parks", paragraph preoccupe par les interets des gens qui ne voient (e) is another escape clause: "any other type of dans Ia nature qu'une ressource a exploiter. provincial park that may be specified in the Certes, nous sommes aussi partie de Ia nature, regulation." So that means a regulation could be mais trop souvent nous Ia sous-estimons. Nous made for a pulp and paper park or a sustainable oublions qu'elle nous permet de vivre non par son development park by cutting down the forest to exploitation mais par son existence. Sans les create a product that will end up in the garbage can. arbres, pas d'air a respirer. Sans les reservoirs The same objective seems to be contemplated in d'eau que sont les lacs et les rivieres, pas d'eau a subsection 7(3), "Land use categories", paragraph boire. Sans Ia pluie, pas de recoltes. Pour vraiment (g): "any other category that may be specified in the respecter !'esprit de Ia loi que l'on nous propose, il regulation." And another fir tree bites the dust. faudrait d'abord que I'on donne plus de precision a Anything is stipulated. A category of lands set aside Ia lettre de Ia loi. Que I'on y insere desparagraphes for exploitation by mining and forestry companies? stipulant le processus decisionnel par lequel les Why not? pares seront designes, les utilisations seront decidees et, enfin, que le ministre sera avise avant Further on we get to the regulations the minister qu'il ne fasse descendre un ukase. can make, where he can take measures regarding activities in provincial parks, issue licences and Mesdames, Messieurs, je vous remercie de permits for these activities, set conditions on and votre attention et je me tiens a votre disposition renew or cancel licencesand permits. pour repondre a vos questions. What would happen if one day the minister were [Translation) too tired to read an application for a game animal The spirit and the letterof the law. slaughterhouse, or if he found that a virgin forest is even more beautiful than usual when it is planted in Mr. Minister, Mr. Chairperson, members of the straight lines? All right, okay, it would be unlikely committee, ladies and gentlemen in the audience, I that a minister would abuse the discretion the thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with you my thoughts on Bill 41 . wording of the bill gives him in quite that way, but sometimes it could just happen that the minister As a member of the Sierra Club, I am concerned responsible for parks and their designation might about any law that might affect natural spaces and end up being more concerned about the interests of the parks that exist to protect those spaces. As we people who only view nature as an exploitable all know, any law is divided into two parts: Rrst, resource. there is the spirit in which the law was drafted, and All of us, of course, are part of nature, but we then there is the letter of the law, i.e. wording that oftenunde restimate it. We forget that it allows us to will be interpreted to give a legal form to the spirit of live not by the way it is exploited but by the way it the law. exists. Without trees, there would be no air to At first sight, the spirit in which this bill was breathe. Without the water stored in lakes and conceived appears to be precisely that of rivers, there would be no water to drink. Without the conserving and protecting nature. However, the rain, there would be no harvests. To truly respect 422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21, 1993

the spirit of the law we are being proposed, the Mrs. Carstalrs: In that we have a session for letter of the law has to be made much clearer. tomorrow, would it not be more appropriate to call Provisions on the decision-making process behind these people for a second time tomorrow morning park designations, on how uses will be determined at nine o'clock? and how the minister is to be advised before he Mr. Chairperson: I would ask what the will of the issues orders in council have to incorporated into committee is at this time? Is it the will of the the bill. committee. Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for your kind Mrs. Carstalrs: There is nobodyelse here. attention and and am available to answer your questions. Mr. Chairperson: In that case, is it the will of the committee? Committee will rise. [English] COMMmEE ROSE AT: 12:44a.m . Briefly, all I am saying is that if you are going to write a law, the spirit of the law as I read it, it is fine. It is when it gets down to the letter ofthe text-and WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS PRESENTED I sit there going, well, it is great to talk about BUT NOT READ conservation, it is great to talk about this-it is not I am representing myself as a private landowner. spelled out. How it worksis not spelled out, how the I, James Andrew Barabash, have a few things I parks will be designated and what the process is is would like to mention about the service fee. I not spelled out. How the input will be given from the belong to the Park Lands Private Association. public and all the parties concerned is not spelled out. Basically your bill will cause you nothing but (1 ) Any maintenance that is done on our roads grief and will cause nothing but grief to everyone has been paid from our own association and who follows you. volunteered work. It would be very simple to solve all those (2) We, the association, built up the riverbank by problems right now by redrafting it and just putting hauling the rocks toprevent further erosion. these things in. Once that is in place, then you have (3) We maintain our own beach by hauling sand, a system where we argue amongst ourselves and cleaning up the weeds and cutting the grass. all you do is follow our recommendations. Do you (4) We have our own docks, which were paid and not think that would be more sensible? We can sit built by the association, which also maintains them. there and hit each other over the head. (5) The Parks board comes and collects a fee for M. le president: C'est tout, Monsieur Sourisseau? the docks and ramps on the private roads. M. Sourisseau: C'est tout. Je vous remercie (6) All the years we have been here we pay for beaucoup. Any questions? No? the seasonal passes for the park. M. le president: Non. C'est correct. A Ia prochaine (1 ) Campers who pay the fee at the gate receive tois. washroom facilities with hot and cold showers, [Translation] toilet paper is supplied, plus park maintenance of Mr.Chairperson: Is that all, Mr. Sourisseau? washrooms, fire pits and wells. Also, there is the maintenance of roads in summer and winter, Parks Mr.Souriss eau: That is all. Thank youvery much. Branch protection and garbage collection. Private Any questions? No? cottage ownersdo not receive this luxury. Mr. Chairperson: No. Very well then. Until next (2) We pay our provincial taxes through gasoline time. taxes on all gas motorized engines, examples: [English] lawn mowers, chain saws and outboard motors, We are now back to No. 1, Vira and Dr. Russ taxes on snowmobile licences, which we are not Evans, second call. Doreen Ander, second call. allowed to drive on the highway. If caught on the These will all be second call, by the way. Alex road, there is a heavy fine. Spinak- No matter where we go, we pay for an Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Chair. all-protection tax which was passed in Apri1 1992. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, Mrs. Carstairs. Levies not related to services: July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 423

13(1 .1) This is no free lunch for anyone in the absolutely no time allowed to make arrangements association. to leave jobs and families and travel to attend this I am against Bill 41 because it provides for meeting. property taxation without a vote. It takes away our Has the government consulted the taxpayers most basic property rights. As a private property and the people who use, live in, work in the owner, I do not want to see eastern Europe provincial parks about Bill 41 , or was it constructed transplanted into Manitoba. by someone sitting at a desk? The closest some of There are a few privately owned properties in the that personnel probably was to a provincial park park and more privately owned properties outside was to fly over them in a government jet. the park, which are not subjected to the property I agree with Bill 41 but not in its entirety. A new tax and Bill 41 , which will not affect them. parks act is required, and the usage of each park I therefore refuse to recognize this legislation would have to differ,but these decisions should not unless I have a vote. I am also prepared to pay a only be made by the government of Manitoba, with negotiated fee by agreement of the association. offices in Winnipeg, of course, but also by the Yours sincerely, taxpayers of Manitoba and especially the people James Barabash that use the park, and neighbours living around the park. *** A park cannot be expected to pay for itself. It Please tender my submission sent this day by would appear that the governmentof Manitoba, by fax to the above hearing. I would also request that allowing itself to be the sole judge on what a park a copy of this fax be placed in the hands of: Oscar will be used for, seems to think that by allowing Lathlin, NDP critic; Gary Doer, Leader of the certain industry, exploration, mining and logging, it opposition; NormanProuse, Director of Parks; Paul may accomplish this. Funds from other Edwards, Leader of the Liberal Party; and Premier departments of the government, such as Tourism, Gary Filmon. should be allocated to the budget of provincial The government of Manitoba has again failed to parks. consider and acknowledge the residents of this As a member of an association, we have province who live beyond the concrete pad known continually asked for a breakdown of the provincial as the Perimeter Highway. parks income and expenditures but to no avail. It The government of Manitoba has again failed to has been very frustrating dealing with the Parks listen to the people that have placed them in the department and Natural Resources with the hallowed chairs they sit in and dictatefr om. government of Manitoba. But I must compliment The government of Manitoba has again failed to the employees dealing with Clearwater Lake abide by the promises made to the people, that the Provincial Park. I do believe that most of them have people who live in the entire province of Manitoba, the park in their best interest. that is, between the 49th parallel and 60th parallel, Thank you for accepting my written submission. I shall have involvement in the decisions of this would very much like to have made this submission government. in person and listened to my fellow park residents How does the government of Manitoba expect and given them my support. If we had been advised people to attend a meeting 500 miles away with 22 that hearings would be taking place over a longer hours notice, especially when the noticeis received periodof time, not just the evening of July 20, 1993, in the evening. The government of Manitoba has you can be sure that many more submissions already cut our wages as employees of that would have been made in person. government and expects us to take another day, unpaid holiday, to attend a very urgent and Harvey Ander important meeting in Winnipeg. There was The Pas, Manitoba