Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PUBLIC UTILITIES and NATURAL RESOURCES 42 Elizabeth II Chairperson Mr. Marcel Laurendeau Constituency of St. Norbert VOL. XLII No. 13 • 7 p.m., WEDNESDAY, JULY 21, 1993 ISSN 0713-9454 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETI, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River He ights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Ho n. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Mi nnedosa PC GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Liberal HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant Rossmere Vacant Rupertsland Vacant The Maples 359 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES Wednesday, July 21,1993 TIME-7p.m. John Jacobson, Private Citizen LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Diane Cox, on behalf of Duncan Stewart CHAIRPERSON - Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Gord Pazerniuk, Private Citizen Norbert) Leonard Lewandoski, Private Citizens ATTENDANCE -10- QUORUM- 6 Hendrik He rfst, The Defenders of Nopiming Members of the Committee present: Joseph Kelly, Private Citizen Hon. Messrs. Ducharm e, Enns, Praznik, Jean-Philippe Sourisseau, Private Citizen Stefanson MATTERSUNDER DISCUSSION: Mr. Ashton, Mrs. Carstairs, Mrs. Dacquay, Bill 41 -The Provincial Parks and Consequential Messrs. Laurendeau, Penner, Ms. Wowchuk Amendments Act APPEARING: *** Jerry Storie, MLA for Flin Flon Marianne Cerilli, MLA for Radisson Mr. Chairperson: I would like to ask the WITNESSES: committee's advice on something. I have a number of presenters-there are three or four of them-one Walter Kucharczyk, Private Citizen who has to be out of town on family business and it Walter Burdeny, Private Citizen is urgent. He is going to be leaving at nine o'clock. Glen Pinnell, Abitibi-Price The other ones, I would rather not get into their personal reasons why they have to be heard but Vincent Keenan, Private Citizen there are three others who would like to have been Kelly Sharpe, Private Citizen heard as well. I am wondering if it is the will of the Jack Coote, Private Citizen committee that we might hear from these four presenters. Sharon Coote, Private Citizen Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I do not think Gordon Hanson, Private Citizen there is any problem. In fact, we have been Henry Ostrowski, Mayor, Village of Powerview accommodating people from out of town, but Dave Nickarz, Private Citizen actually one of the other traditions is we also do Nick Carter, Private Citizen accommodate people who have specific circumstances as to why they cannot come back Joe Melnick, Private Citizen another time. I would agree to it. Alison Elliott, Private Citizen Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): My only Paul Nagerl, on behalf of D. James Robertson, question is, are they out-of�town people or are Falconbridge Limited there still people from out of town here this evening Bruce Samson, Whiteshell District Association who would be moved up the list as well? Inc. Mr. Chairperson: There are still some out-of-town William Pruitt,Priv ate Citizen presenters as well. Christine Singh, Coalition to Save the Elms At this time, would the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources please come Margaret Pilloud, Private Citizen to order. When the committee last sat, it was Don Sullivan, Choices hearing public presentations on Bill 41 , The 360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 21 , 1993 Provincial Parks and Consequential Amendments I would like to now call on Walter Kucharczyk. Act. The committee tonight will continue hearing Mr. Walter Kucharczyk (Private Citizen): My public presentations. apologies to cause you difficulties with that last Before I get underway, I would like to inform the name. Walter is good enough. committee members that the committee has received additional written submissions and that Mr. Chairperson: Walter is good enough. these have been distributed to the committee Mr. Kucharczyk: Please. (interjection] You are a members with the updated lists of the written real politician. You know how to interpret, hey. submissions. At this time, before me is an updated list of persons names registered to speak on Bill 41 . Mr. Chairperson: Carry on. Do you have a written For the committee's benefit, a copy of the list has presentation, Walter? been distributed to each member. Mr. Kucharczyk: No, Mr. Chairperson, I will be very brief. I will not use 20 minutes. I want to say to Point of Order you first of all that my medical condition calls for lots to be desired. In other words, I am prettysick under Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Just a medication. However, I could not help but get off point of order, Mr. Chairperson, if I may. my chest something that I have been aware of I was just in the back of the room , and I do not probably before some of you here were born. know if it is the sound system, the nature of the Your Bill 41 is similar to the mining bill in the sound system or perhaps the way we are using our second part you just recently completed, Bill 3. The microphones, but it is virtually impossible to hear issue that you have in Bill 41 to my knowledge what is going on at the committee from the back of existed but no action had been taken by the D.L. the room . Perhaps if we could make sure we are Campbell administration-do not give me a dirty closer to our microphones, et cetera, so that the look-subsequently, Mr. Roblin at the time had presenters are able to hear our comments. inherited, I believe, the Department of Natural Mr. Chairperson : Thank you, Mr. Praznik. Resources jointly with the Department ofMines. *** There is an honourable minister classified as endangered species and has been over 25 years in Mr. Ashton: Just while we are dealing with that position. He can say if I am right or wrong. Most preliminary matters, I am just wondering if we have of the time I am wrong according to my enemies, of the same understanding as yesterday in terms of course. timing of the committee. I would suggest that we, Now the matter was raised at the time of Mr. once again, assess where we are at eleven o'clock Roblin's administration by Honourable Mr. Gurney and proceed as we did last night. It seemed to work Evans, may he rest in peace, but not with his ideas. quite well. He was good. One obstacle was their tying in the Mr. Chairperson: Is that agreed with the private lands in designated areas of the parks with committee then? Agreed. some daydreamers at the time to have a Torrens If there is anyone else in the audience who is not title to the property the way Ontario had. So the registered to speak to Bill 41 and would like to do brains in the department reviewed, to my so, please let the staffat the back of the room know knowledge, what would be a benefit of the title or and they will add your name to the Zst. rather to be administered by the Crown. More or less, as I recal l, the conclusion was, Mr. As a reminder for the committee members and Chairperson, that if the Torrens title practice would members of the public, the committee has agreed be implemented, then you would have a Hungarian at previous meetings to hear from out-of-town goulash that you never would separate. It would be presenters first. If there is anyone today to speak to just a mess. Bill 41 from out of town, could they inform the Clerk and we will call those names right after we have So the powers to be decided at the time, just let it dealt with the four special circumstances that have stay for awhile. Besides, there was no recession been brought to our attention as agreed to by the then, and besides, the Crown lease was committee. somewhere around $30 a year where the cottages July 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 361 were. Today, of course, it is slightly over $600. I am their opinion. As far as the retroactivity is not beefing, the service improved. concerned, you, sir, will not be inventing the wheel. When I heard about the objections subsequently The Right Honourable Mr.