Tuesday Volume 516 19 October 2010 No. 54

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 19 October 2010

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to themselves but to our communities. They will feed House of Commons organised crime and return to their habits. Surely he accepts and recognises that. Tuesday 19 October 2010 Mr Blunt: Of course I accept and recognise that. That is the reality of the current position. All too many The House met at half-past Two o’clock short-sentence offenders are going into prison, and occasionally they do not have a drug habit but acquire PRAYERS one while they are there. We are failing to rehabilitate drug addicts effectively and, indeed, to address properly alcoholics, in the community and in prison, who are [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] under the sentence of the courts. That is why we will move to a much more output-based system, measuring people by what they achieve rather than simply measuring inputs. Of course, that is a very difficult area, and many Oral Answers to Questions people need more than one go—indeed, several goes—at effecting successful rehabilitation from drugs, and of course this Administration acknowledge that. JUSTICE Young Offenders

The Secretary of State was asked— 2. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What proportion of young offenders reoffended within one Prisons (Drug Addiction Services) year of being released from custody in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he will make a 1. Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What statement. [17812] recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on drug addiction services in prisons. [17811] 16. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): What proportion of young offenders reoffended within The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (a) one and (b) two years of being released from (Mr Crispin Blunt): I have had discussions with Ministers custody in the latest period for which figures are in a number of Departments, including the Department available. [17827] of Health, the Home Office and the Cabinet Office. Those discussions have covered a range of drugs-related The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice topics, including reforming drug addiction services in (Mr Crispin Blunt): The latest reoffending rate for young prisons. people, those aged between 10 and 17, released from custody in England and Wales in the first quarter of Amber Rudd: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. 2008 is 74.3%. Reoffending rates for young people are He will be aware that many prisoners struggle with based on whether an offender has been convicted at choosing abstinence over methadone when they want to court or has received an out-of-court disposal for an kick their drug habits, so what action will the Government offence in the year following release from custody. take to encourage prisoners to take an abstinence-based regimen instead of methadone? Laura Sandys: Does the Minister agree that young offenders, when released from prison, need a more Mr Blunt: Our policy is that we should move towards demanding and challenging set of programmes? In my abstinence from maintenance, but it is not the practice constituency, the Kent Film Foundation runs a programme that we have inherited. The main programme, the integrated teaching film skills, and it has an 85% success rate in drug treatment system, is relatively new and based getting young offenders into work or further education, around National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse at a cost of £5,000 per course. models of care, but the effect in practice is much more about maintaining addicts safely than leading them to Mr Blunt: There are many isolated examples of really abstinence. However, there are very good abstinence-based good practice all over the country, and our challenge is programmes in prison, such as RAPt, and our goal is to to systemise it so that people can learn from what challenge offenders to take responsibility for the harm works, experience the flexibility and the opportunity to that they have caused and to accept help to come off implement it and deliver the output, which then effectively drugs. We will therefore reshape existing drug services turns those young people away from crime. in prisons to establish drug recovery wings that are based on abstinence, free from drugs, motivate change, Mark Reckless: Given the abject failure of the Youth support rehabilitation and, on release, link offenders Justice Board to reduce reoffending among our young into community services that can continue the progress people, what plans does the Minister have to replace it, made in prison. and in particular what role does he envisage for the private and voluntary sectors in that area? Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): It sounds as if the Minister is going to be pretty rigid in Mr Blunt: The functions of the Youth Justice Board pursuing a policy that, in some cases, will work and be will be taken into the Ministry of Justice, but I am not wholly appropriate. In other cases, however, people will sure that I would be quite as condemnatory as my hon. fail, and when they do so they will be a problem not just Friend is about the board’s record. It has achieved 779 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 780 success in getting youth offending teams effectively Margot James: I thank the Minister for his answer. embedded within a local delivery framework, and it is My constituent, Luke Walker, has been imprisoned on now up to the Ministry of Justice and myself, as the the island of Crete for over 150 days, and his defence Minister for Youth Justice, to take that work forward team have been constantly frustrated by the denial of and take responsibility for it. information that should rightfully be theirs. Can my right hon. Friend update the House on the progress of Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Precisely how much the working group set up between UK and Greek money will the Minister save by the abolition of the officials and designed to improve co-operation between Youth Justice Board? Will he ensure that that money is the UK coroner service and the Greek authorities? reinvested in front-line services to support youth offending teams? How precisely does he expect to organise youth Nick Herbert: I understand that Luke Walker has offending teams without the oversight of the Youth been charged but that a trial date has not been set. It is Justice Board? of course a matter of great regret that delays are occurring in the exchange of information between the Greek Mr Blunt: There will be some savings to be taken, but authorities and coroners in England and Wales. That they will not be taken at the outset because the delivery can only increase the distress felt by everyone involved functions of the Youth Justice Board, principally in in such cases, of which there are a number. We are purchasing custody for young people sent into custody working with the Foreign Office and the Greek authorities by the courts, will obviously remain. I would have to try to improve the situation so that inquests can be thought that the right hon. Gentleman remembered the concluded without further delay. The working group to system that he had, whereby one-on-one policy advice which my hon. Friend refers will be able to have its first came from the Youth Justice Board and from his own meeting to discuss these issues shortly; we are pressing policy officials in the Department. That sort of duplication for a date to be set. will be taken away by bringing the functions of the Youth Justice Board within the Ministry of Justice. Vulnerable Women (Alternatives to Custody)

Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I am glad 4. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What steps he that the Minister has not taken the opportunity to plans to take to provide alternatives to custody for rubbish the Youth Justice Board, because the Under- vulnerable women in the criminal justice system. Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for [17814] Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), heaped praise on it in abolishing it last week. Having praised and buried the The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Youth Justice Board, what does the Minister suggest Herbert): We are already providing effective alternatives takes its place? He knows that 25% falls in youth to remands for the courts with new enhanced bail reoffending rates occurred over its first eight years. provision for women and robust community sentences What is his strategy for continuing the excellent record supported by voluntary sector-run women’s community of the previous Labour Government in reducing youth projects. reoffending? Mr Blunt: I am not entirely sure that I would be that Julie Hilling: I thank the Minister for that answer. sanctimonious about presenting the record of the last However, will he pledge that funding for voluntary and Labour Government, when we had not only the awful community sector projects designed to help vulnerable reoffending rates out of custody but, in relation to women out of a life of crime and away from prison is community penalties, 67.6% of young people reoffending not undermined by cuts to Ministry of Justice budgets? within one year. That is not a record to be wildly proud of. We need to continue to embed youth offending Nick Herbert: I appreciate the value of such community teams in their local authority areas and ensure that projects. The hon. Lady will understand that I cannot there is a proper, effective delivery of local services to make pledges on funding, not least ahead of tomorrow’s young people, including from the education departments spending review announcements. However, we are keen of local authorities, for example, to ensure that we to ensure that such projects continue if they can and, in properly co-ordinate the effective delivery of services to particular, that there is a role for the voluntary sector in young offenders within the gift of the state to ensure helping to deliver them. that they do not reoffend. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): In Judicial Co-operation (UK and Greece) 2007, the Corston report stated that custodial sentences for women should be reserved for serious and violent 3. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): If he will take individuals who pose a threat to the public, yet 68% of steps to improve co-operation between judicial systems women in prison are there for non-violent offences, in the UK and in Greece. [17813] compared with 47% of men. What more can the Government do to ensure that fewer women who are The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick guilty of non-violent offences go to prison? Herbert): Both the UK and Greece are party to a number of European instruments that facilitate co-operation Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend may know that when between judicial systems within Europe. In addition, I the then Government broadly accepted the Corston know that my hon. Friend is taking a particular interest report’s recommendations, we in opposition broadly in the separate bilateral issue of improving the provision accepted them too. The female prison population rose of locally obtained information regarding deaths of our sharply from when the previous Government took power. citizens in Greece to coroners here. It had risen by 86% by 2002, although it has been 781 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 782 broadly static since then. It is important to provide Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman probably alternatives such as community projects, particularly to knows that we will announce a set of proposals on help vulnerable women who do not need to be in sentencing later this year, and restorative justice will custody, although custody must of course remain for form an important component of that. It is a coalition the most serious offenders. agreement to seek to promote restorative justice programmes, and the evaluation of them that has been Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): While carried out is encouraging, showing high levels of victim obviously the Minister cannot anticipate tomorrow’s satisfaction and reduced rates of reoffending. comprehensive spending review decisions, in order to fulfil the strategy set out by Baroness Corston of reducing Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): My right hon. Friend the number of women offenders in prison, there must referred to the community payback scheme. I recently be good community provision. Can he now commit to spent a day with the community payback team in my maintaining the existing provision? constituency, helping to cut back branches in a local area of woodland. I saw the benefits of such work to Nick Herbert: I welcome the hon. Lady to her new both offenders and the community. Does he agree that role. We want to embed women’s community projects such schemes play an important part in the justice into mainstream service provision and provide support system? for women at each stage of the criminal justice process, so we are devolving both budgets and contracts to Nick Herbert: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. I directors of offender management. They are working assume that he was taking part in the scheme as an with the probation service, which will have the lead role observer, not as somebody who was required to pay in sustaining successful projects. We want those projects back to the community. It was not a Whips-run scheme. to succeed. It is important that community sentences are effective, and that there is confidence on the part of members of Restorative Justice Pilot Schemes the public and sentencers that the schemes are rigorous. At their best they can be, but there is a great deal more 5. Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): What work to be done to ensure that they are supervised and restorative justice pilot schemes his Department has or enforced properly. has recently completed in England. [17815] Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Last year The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick alone, offenders carried out more than 11 million hours Herbert): I am providing good value for the taxpayer of unpaid work through the community payback scheme, this afternoon. [Interruption.] Buy one answer, get one which is a model of restorative justice. Across the free. country, offenders have cleaned graffiti, repaired community Pre-sentence restorative justice for adults was trialled centres and worked on environmental projects, including as part of a Home Office crime reduction programme helping to repair flood damage in Cumbria. The scheme that ran between 2001 and 2004. A youth restorative was established by the previous Labour Government in disposal has also been piloted, allowing police officers the face of Conservative opposition—indeed, at the to resolve minor first-time offences by young people time, the current Attorney-General dismissed it as a using restorative techniques. We are currently ensuring gimmick. Will the Minister confirm that that excellent that the pilot is independently evaluated. Labour programme is in fact now being expanded by his Government because it provides an important role Elizabeth Truss: The community payback scheme in in punishing and rehabilitating offenders? Downham Market was initiated by volunteers and has proved very effective in both showing justice being done Nick Herbert: May I also congratulate the hon. locally and delivering key community projects such as Gentleman on his new position as Opposition improvements to paths and car parks. What plans does spokesperson? He does not seem to recognise that there the Minister have to give local communities the power are public confidence issues with community payback to make it easier to deliver similar schemes? as it is currently run. He did not refer, for instance, to the ITV documentary that was broadcast recently that Nick Herbert: I am aware of the Downham Market showed offenders abusing community payback and scheme. If sentencers and the public are to have confidence problems with supervision. It is the Government’s intention in community payback, we need to make it tougher. We to considerably improve and toughen up community need to ensure that the work done is meaningful and payback so that there is confidence in it. challenging, and that there is rigorous enforcement of community payback orders. We are also keen on ensuring Prisoners (Drug Addiction) that as much as possible is done, like in Downham Market, to encourage members of the community to 6. Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What estimate he nominate projects and therefore take an interest in has made of the number of prisoners in England and them. Wales addicted to class A drugs. [17816]

Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice In view of the Minister’s comments earlier about embedding (Mr Kenneth Clarke): We estimate that on average, 55% best practice in the mainstream, what will he do to of all people entering prison have a serious drug problem, ensure that judges and magistrates have a full understanding but we are unable to give a robust and precise estimate of the outcome of restorative justice projects and make of the number of prisoners who are addicted to class A full use of them? drugs. A recent study reviewed 1,457 newly sentenced 783 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 784 prisoners from 49 prisons. It showed that 62% of prisoners Prisoners (Relationship Skills Programmes) reported some drug use, and 41% of the sample reported heroin, cocaine powder or crack cocaine use during the 7. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): four-week period prior to the study. What steps he is taking to provide relationship skills programmes for prisoners. [17817] Andrew Griffiths: The Secretary of State will know that more than 60,000 prisoners received methadone or The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice another drug intervention in our prisons last year alone. (Mr Crispin Blunt): Currently, commissioning services Almost 24,000 of them received a regular methadone for offenders is devolved to directors of offender prescription. Does he agree that that state-induced management in the regions and Wales. They are responsible dependency must end? for deciding what services they wish to commission to meet the needs of prisoners in their area. We are examining Mr Clarke rose— how reforms to the justice system could enable delivery of more programmes from a broader range of local providers of greater relevance to the many rehabilitation Andrew Griffiths: And will he urgently bring forward needs of offenders. proposals to tackle the problem? Andrew Selous: Given that there is a mass of academic Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is testing evidence from the UK, the US and the Netherlands that the knee muscles of his right hon. and learned Friend. strong family relationships reduce reoffending and, therefore, cost to the Minister’s Department, can I ask him to stress that in the Green Paper and when he and his Mr Clarke: I was compelled by my hon. Friend’s first colleagues speak to prison governors? question and I had not thought that there was more to come. As he said, we must move away from the overuse Mr Blunt: I tend to agree with my hon. Friend. We of drugs and methadone maintenance, and aim at have to get to a position in which those people who are detoxification and returning people to a condition in charged with the rehabilitation of offenders have a which they might stay out of prison. Methadone much freer hand to deliver the interventions that will be maintenance is sometimes necessary when dealing with effective for the offender who is in their care. If we people who are seriously addicted when they enter over-prescribe exactly what has to be done from the prison. If people are serving a very short-term sentence, centre, we will have a much less effective system. That there is not much more we can do than maintain them process will be central to the rehabilitation revolution of on methadone. delegating responsibility and authority for these decisions However, the Ministry of Justice is looking, with my to a local level. right hon. Friend the Health Secretary, to see what can be done in the context of his health reforms to deal Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): While I more constructively with the huge problem of drugs would not go as far as the Minister’s party in terms of offenders and crime. As I said, more than half the rehabilitation for prisoners, is it not better to have people whom we admit to prison are believed to have a resources going into rehabilitation so that we save money serious drug problem when they arrive, and some who in the long run? When I spoke to those who work at enter drug-free become addicted while there. Nottingham prison in my constituency, they were very concerned that the cuts that will be implemented tomorrow John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Some of us believe could mean that prisoners will be locked up for much that decisions on drug treatment, including in prison, longer periods with no rehabilitation services. should be taken by doctors, not by politicians. Which Government agency will take the lead on drug treatment Mr Blunt: I detected a degree of contradiction in how in prison under this Government? the hon. Gentleman presented his question. He does not want to go as far as we would on the rehabilitation of offenders, but then asks us to go the distance. That is Mr Clarke: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a exactly what we will do. It would be wholly short-sighted close interest in drug treatment in his constituency, to cut our capacity to deliver rehabilitation of offenders, where he has an excellent record on the subject. and that is why we will enable a system that gets the Responsibility for such treatment in prisons has been whole country—including the voluntary, not-for-profit transferred to the NHS. I agree with his proposition and the private sectors, as well as the existing state that clinical judgments must lie at the heart of any drug services—to work together to deliver effective rehabilitation treatment programme, but it is necessary for Departments of offenders and effect a step change in the delivery of to collaborate. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of what is a critical public service. State for Health and I hope to produce a combined framework on treatment in prison and treatment for Prison Service Staff (Mental Health Awareness) convicted drug users in alternative residential accommodation. That might include the transfer of prisoners in suitable cases to community-based mental 8. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): What health care. All those things must be tried, because the recent discussions he has had with ministerial current situation is quite appalling. However, in the colleagues on the provision of training for prison end, treatment of an individual must be a clinical service staff on the management of offenders with decision. It is certainly not a decision for politicians. mental health conditions. [17818] 785 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 786

12. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Ipswich) (Con): What recent discussions he has had How do the Government intend to implement the proposal with ministerial colleagues on the provision of training in the coalition agreement to explore alternative forms for prison service staff on the management of of secure treatment-based accommodation for mentally offenders with mental health conditions. [17823] ill and drugs offenders? Mr Clarke: I recall that proposal in the coalition 18. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) agreement. I think I mistakenly drew upon it a few moments (Con): What recent discussions he has had with ago when talking about drug treatments—I do not ministerial colleagues on the provision of training for think we will be moving to that quite so rapidly. However, prison service staff on the management of offenders that is an important part of the coalition agreement, with mental health conditions. [17829] and I can only say at this stage that we certainly have not forgotten about it and are working on it. Undoubtedly, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice if we can set up a proper and, where necessary, secure (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Ministry of Justice and Department treatment facility, it would perhaps be a better place to of Health Ministers and senior officials discuss offender treat mental illness than an overcrowded prison. health issues regularly. Over 17,000 prison officers received mental health awareness training between 2006 and Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): What 2009. A new mental health training framework was discussions have been held between the Secretary of launched in 2009-10, which regional offender health State’s Department and the devolved Administrations teams now co-ordinate. on this important issue? Are there any glaring variations between the training available across the different regions of the United Kingdom? Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer and I am delighted to Mr Clarke: These matters are devolved. I have no doubt hear that his Department is working with the Department that we will look at good practice on both sides of the of Health. Will he do all that he can to work effectively Irish sea from time to time to ensure that we benefit from with that Department to ensure the proper commissioning what we each do. I am in regular contact with my opposite of mental health services, which will not only improve number in the devolved Northern Ireland Government, intervention in the police station, but ensure a wider and I will try to take the opportunity to discuss these range of effective sentences in our courts? matters with him to see how we are both getting on.

Mr Clarke: That is precisely what we want to do, and Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I am encouraged my hon. Friend’s approach is very much in the right by the responses from the Secretary of State, particularly direction. Much reform will take place in the Department given that this is a big issue in my constituency, which is of Health, including obviously the commissioning of home to Her Majesty’s Prison Brixton. We want to services for mental health. It is important that account expand provision for mental health services in that is taken of the need to commission proper services of prison so we are keen to know whether he agrees that it all kinds for prisoners, and that is being taken on board would be a mistake this week to reduce funding for by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for mental health services in our prisons? Health and his team. We will work closely with them. The present prison population includes people whose Mr Clarke: Not surprisingly, everyone is trying to criminality goes alongside a definite need for support—in anticipate tomorrow’s announcements. We will have to this case for mental health problems—which, if tackled make fairly marked reductions to the budget of the successfully, might reduce their liability to reoffend. Ministry of Justice and the various services for which we are responsible. Against that background, we will need to take an approach to how we tackle these problems Dr Poulter: Does the Secretary of State agree that the that is more radical and reforming than the previous treatment of prisoners with mental health problems one, which involved simply paying for more and more does not just end when they leave prison but continues places for more and more people, leading to overcrowded far beyond? Will he please outline what steps the prisons. Our approach will underline the need to take a Government plan to take to support prisoners with particular look at drugs, mental health, illiteracy, mental health problems after they leave prison? innumeracy, foreign national prisoners and all the other things to ensure that we find better ways of dealing with Mr Clarke: I agree entirely. It is all part of what we rehabilitation problems whenever possible. hope to do on rehabilitation. In addition to tackling prisoners’ problems inside prison, we have to look ahead Short Custodial Sentences and almost certainly join up with the community mental health services providing support for prisoners when 9. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): What they are released. That will be an important part of recent discussions he has had with the Sentencing ensuring that the reforms we are carrying out to the Guidelines Council on its guidance on short custodial prison service and the criminal justice system are properly sentences. [17819] tied up with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice for Health’s important reforms to the future shape of (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Sentencing Guidelines Council the NHS. has not issued any specific guidance on short custodial sentences. We have had no discussions with the council Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently encourage the Secretary on this topic, which we are considering as part of our of State to look at the House when he addresses us? assessment of sentencing policy. 787 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 788

Hazel Blears: The Secretary of State may be aware of on the use of restorative justice projects such as community a recent case in my constituency in which a young man payback—a subject that has already been raised by the suffering from autism and Asperger’s syndrome was hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) subjected to a series of horrific attacks by three other and other colleagues. However, the right hon. and learned young men. The judge said that the attacks could almost Gentleman will know that most people who receive amount to torture, yet the three perpetrators were given short prison sentences are persistent offenders who have community orders. During the general election, the refused to change their behaviour, even after undergoing right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), now the community sentences, as has been said. He has said that Prime Minister, told the country that we are not convicting he is not against abolishing the power of magistrates to enough. He then explicitly said that award short sentences. Will he commit today not to “when we do convict them, they’re not getting long enough reduce, in the sentencing review now taking place, the sentences.” power of magistrates to give custodial sentences where Just two weeks ago, in his speech to the Conservative appropriate? party conference, the Prime Minister said that Mr Clarke: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to “offenders who should go to prison will go to prison”. his place, and I look forward to debating with him. He I agree with the Prime Minister—does the Secretary of has certainly got to Cabinet level a damn sight more State? quickly than I ever did, so I am sure that he will prove a formidable challenge to the Government. As I have Mr Clarke: One of the failings of the last Government already said, we will not take away powers from magistrates was to take a popular subject from the popular press courts, which sometimes find it absolutely inevitable and make rather shallow partisan points out of it. that they have to give somebody a short prison sentence, Sentencing in individual cases is not a matter for Ministers, because everything else has failed and that person is and should not be a matter for sensational comment to continuing to cause damage to other people. However, the newspapers by Ministers with the frequency that it we hope to provide magistrates with the full range of was. We have to ensure that justice is done, particularly alternatives. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for to the victims of crime, and that justice is carried out in Policing and Criminal Justice said a few moments ago, such a way as to reduce the risk of reoffending. We have more credible community sentences—sentences with a made our approach to crime perfectly clear: we must properly punitive element that might have a better punish the guilty. Prison is the right place for serious chance of rehabilitating the offender—should be tried criminals—they will not commit more crimes while in more cases, and we will try to provide them for inside—but we also strive to avoid reoffending. The magistrates. case that the right hon. Lady mentions was obviously a serious case for the victim, but newspaper cuttings from Sadiq Khan: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for Salford are not the source of future criminal justice that answer. He has made it absolutely clear that magistrates reform. will not have the power to give short sentences taken away from them. For clarity, will he also confirm that the cuts that will be announced tomorrow will not lead Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Secretary of to a reduction in any prison places or to any prisons State take this opportunity to acknowledge that very being closed? few people are sentenced to prison for a first offence? The vast majority of people who serve short-term prison Mr Clarke: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is sentences do so only because they have been given not going to follow his predecessors in making a great community sentence after community sentence, all of policy point about a target for the number of people in which have failed. The last thing to do with those prison, because there is no evidence that that does any people is to give them another community sentence, good to anybody. We do have to—[Interruption.] The only for it to fail once again. present numbers are enormous compared with the numbers when we were last in office. There are 20,000 more Mr Clarke: It is very pleasant to say that I largely people in prison than there were when we last had a agree with my hon. Friend. He has probably been upset Conservative Home Secretary in charge. We are looking by reports that I am minded to abolish short prison at what works, and what protects the public. Prison sentences. Actually, I have always expressed precisely must be used for those for whom it is essential, but it is the opposite opinion. It has never been my view that we simply not the case that prison is the only way of should abolish all short prison sentences. Indeed, I have dealing with all offenders. Once we have punished people rather shared his opinion that with the kind of irritating and given others a break from their activities, the key recidivist offender who is causing a lot of damage, if thing is to do more than the present system does to they offend over and over again there is quite often no reduce the risk of their reoffending and committing alternative to a short prison sentence. There are too more crimes against more victims, to which the present many such offenders, and although there are cases in system almost condemns us. More than half of prisoners— which we can avoid the use of short prison sentences, if we do that we must have a very effective alternative. Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but we now need shorter questions and shorter Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): May I begin by saying answers. how much I genuinely relish the prospect of debating—and, Victim Support dare I say, arguing—with the Lord Chancellor and his team on the matters in their portfolio? I am also looking 10. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): forward to working with the coalition Government What plans he has for future funding of Victim where there are areas of agreement between us, notably Support homicide service teams. [17821] 789 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 790

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Herbert): The Government recognise the importance of (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): On 23 June 2010 the Justice providing support, information and advocacy for families Secretary announced in a written ministerial statement bereaved by homicide. We are currently considering that the Government were undertaking a policy assessment options for future funding of services for victims. of legal aid in England and Wales. The Government intend to seek views on proposals later this autumn. In Karl Turner: I am grateful for the Minister’s response, addition, on 26 July I announced the Government’s but I am still concerned, because the draft structural intention to consult on implementing Lord Justice Jackson’s plan for the Ministry of Justice makes no reference to proposals on funding arrangements from his report continued funding for the national victims service. Can later this autumn. Those proposals, if implemented, the Minister guarantee that the £8 million committed would help to maintain access to justice at proportionate by the previous Government will be protected by the costs for claimants and defendants. present Government, ensuring that families of murder victims get the support that they need? Mr Ward: The only organisation in Bradford with qualified solicitors offering welfare advice ceases its Nick Herbert: The Government of course recognise service part-way through the year as it uses up its that families who are bereaved through homicide require allocation of matter starts, while other solicitors still the most intensive support of all, and we are working have unused but non-transferable allocations. Will the with Victim Support on the continuing development of Justice Secretary please ensure that, as part of the the homicide service, which is relatively new. It has review, the inefficiency of matter starts is given due supported 600 bereaved people, although it has only consideration? been going since March 2010. However, I cannot make commitments about funding ahead of tomorrow, or Mr Djanogly: That will form part of the review, ahead of the proposals that we will set out later this which, as I said earlier, will be out later this autumn. year. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Member Offender Rehabilitation for Bradford East (Mr Ward) has talked about the importance of legal aid. Like many other hon. Members, 11. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What I believe that legal aid is critical for those who want to progress his Department has made on implementation address an injustice. Can he assure us that it will continue, of its payment by results policy for the rehabilitation of and there will still be an opportunity to access it, even offenders; and if he will make a statement. [17822] after the comprehensive spending review?

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Mr Djanogly: Absolutely. The Government support (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government are committed legal aid very much. As far as we are concerned, however, to introducing payment by results as part of a new it is a question of directing that legal aid to those who approach to offender rehabilitation. We will provide need it most, and that will form the core component of further details in the rehabilitation and sentencing Green the review whose findings will come out later this autumn. Paper. Foreign National Prisoners Stephen Mosley: With 60% of offenders on short-term sentences reoffending within a year, it is absolutely critical to have a major step change in our attitudes to 14. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If he will rehabilitation. To that end, will my right hon. and establish how many foreign national prisoners held in learned Friend tell us whether he plans to introduce any UK prisons wish to serve out custodial sentences in more pilot schemes, and if so, when and where will they their country of origin rather than in the UK. [17825] occur? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Mr Clarke: I entirely share my hon. Friend’s view, (Mr Crispin Blunt): Since 1 January this year, 97 applications and we are hoping to get more pilots under way in the for transfer have been received from prisoners wishing new year, as soon as we have got our Green Paper out to serve their custodial sentence in their country of and drawn up the framework contracts that we shall origin. The Prison Service has in place procedures— have to enter into with providers. The country is full of principally on induction—to ensure that prisoners are people with extremely good ideas on how to improve aware of the possibility of transfer and of how to rehabilitation and reduce reoffending, and we must submit an application. In addition, prisoners are advised, ensure that we have a proper means of engaging with during interviews with immigration staff, of the possibility people in the voluntary and independent sectors and in of being repatriated. Relevant prisoners are advised in private sector companies—in any combination of those writing of any new prisoner transfer agreement that that people wish—to try to produce the result that my comes into effect. hon. Friend and I, and all our constituents, would like to see. Mr Hollobone: May I urge my hon. Friend to place in the Library the details of the countries to which those Vulnerable People (Legal Representation) 97 prisoners wished to return? I also urge him and his ministerial colleagues to do far more to encourage 13. Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): What steps foreign national prisoners to go back to where they his Department is taking to increase access to legal came from, because taxpayers in this country are fed up representation for the most vulnerable. [17824] with paying for their board and lodging. 791 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 792

Mr Blunt: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend dreadful impact on the future lives of both himself and for continuing to keep a spur to the Ministry of Justice’s his family. Given the Lord Chancellor’s enthusiasm for side to ensure that we do not slack in our responsibility rehabilitation, and also the inflation in sentencing over to get these foreign national prisoners home if at all the past 10 years, will he commit to look again at the possible. I am pleased to be able to tell him that when I threshold at which convictions can be legally spent? spoke recently to the annual conference of the Independent Monitoring Boards, I asked them to help us with this, to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice ensure that we have our procedures in place, and to (Mr Crispin Blunt): My hon. Friend has pointed out identify any cases of delay involving prisoners wishing some of the problems with the Rehabilitation of Offenders to return under a prisoner transfer agreement. I am Act 1974 as it operates in today’s climate. I can confirm determined to ensure that all those who are willing to that this will be covered by our review of sentencing and go home should be encouraged to do so at the earliest rehabilitation. opportunity. Sentencing (Parental Responsibility) Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Will the Lord Chancellor confirm that in the forthcoming review of the Human 15. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What Rights Act, its abolition has been ruled out? recent representations he has received on his review of parental responsibility in sentencing. [17826] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The coalition agreement sets out that we will appoint a commission, which will probably The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice happen next year. We will certainly not resile in any way (Mr Crispin Blunt): As part of our informal consultations from our obligations under the European convention for the Green Paper, we have received clear support for on human rights, which the Government accept. We greater engagement of parents and families in the youth will also examine the prospects of improving understanding justice system. There is strong international evidence of how human rights legislation works in this country. and promising emerging evidence from the UK of the effectiveness of supportive parenting interventions in T3. [17838] Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) reducing offending by young people. (Con): Are my right hon. and hon. Friends aware of the devastating consequences, particularly for victims Jason McCartney: I welcome the Minister’s statement of domestic violence, of the decision taken by the that international evidence shows the effectiveness of Legal Services Commission to halve the number of parenting in reducing offending. Will my hon. Friend legal aid providers? In the whole of my constituency of do everything he can to increase the role of parenting in South Northamptonshire we have only one small firm sentencing in the youth justice system? specialising in domestic violence legal aid cases, yet it Mr Blunt: What we want to do is to move towards a has just been told that its licence will be revoked. Can restorative approach to the youth justice system, and Ministers do anything to help my constituents? particularly to examine whether we can transfer the lessons from the experience of the youth system in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Northern Ireland. Youth justice conferencing was very (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): It was a competitive contract, successful there, which involves, of course, the parents and the contracts have now been awarded. It is appropriate of offenders as well as the offenders themselves having to note that the new legal aid contracts for family law to face up to the consequences of their actions. I hope were due to commence on 14 October, but that on that that gives a pretty unqualified yes to my hon. 30 September the Legal Services Commission lost a Friend. judicial review brought about by the Law Society against its recent tender process. The tender was ruled unlawful Topical Questions and the awards quashed, meaning that the Legal Services Commission is unable to proceed with the new family T1. [17836] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) contracts until a fresh process can be undertaken. (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. T2. [17837] Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Lab/Co-op): What action will be taken to ensure that (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I would like to point out that we the arrest and prosecution of foreign nationals can be recently launched the new legal ombudsman scheme on undertaken only by the Crown Prosecution Service and 6 October 2010. The legal ombudsman, established the Metropolitan police? under the Legal Services Act 2007, will act as a one-stop shop for all complaints against legal service providers. Mr Kenneth Clarke: I will make careful inquiries into The new scheme replaces the previous complaints-handling what steps are being taken. Obviously foreign nationals regime, whereby service complaints about lawyers were should be treated on the same basis as any other residents dealt with by their regulatory body. The legal ombudsman of this country when it comes to being dealt with via the will preside over the new complaints system, which will criminal law. However, if the procedures give rise to be efficient, easily understandable for consumers, and some concern, perhaps the hon. Lady would draw the clearly independent from the legal profession. specific problem that troubles her to my attention and that of my team, and we will look into it. Paul Maynard: I recently received a letter from a constituent who in 2000 received a three-year custodial T5. [17840] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Given sentence for a non-violent crime. Despite successful the potential closure of Northwich court in my rehabilitation and gainful employment, he now discovers constituency, as a result of which people will have to that his conviction can never be legally spent—with a travel a considerable distance to reach the nearest court 793 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 794 in Chester, what plans have the Government to of State aware that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction encourage the use of technology to minimise the among those who have received inadequate sums, in necessity for members of the public physically to attend view of the serious injuries inflicted by the mass murderers? the court for routine purposes? Mr Kenneth Clarke: Because of the system that we Mr Djanogly: I thank my hon. Friend for giving me have inherited, the criminal injuries compensation scheme an opportunity to discuss the merits of technology in will have to be re-examined. It simply has not received relation to the courts. As for the court in his constituency, adequate funds in each year’s budget to keep up with access is important. The Government took the view the level of claims. We will have to establish how we can that an average travelling time of an hour or less would produce a system that works more efficiently, is affordable, be acceptable. and does not depend entirely on huge delays before payments are made because no one has been allocated Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Does the Secretary any money to settle all the outstanding claims. of State think that there should be a public acceptability There is quite a lot behind the hon. Gentleman’s test relating to the time that prisoners spend in purposeful question, but of course everything possible is being activity? done to provide the compensation due to people as quickly as possible. Obviously I cannot comment on the Mr Kenneth Clarke: I think that it would be very assessment of damages in individual cases, but I note publicly acceptable if there were a more work-based the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the disappointment regime in more of our prisons. I am not sure what that some have felt. specific tests would need to be devised, but we would need to ensure that, whenever possible, the hours spent T7. [17842] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): in productive employment by prisoners reintroduced to As part of his efforts to save money by reducing the the work habit were similar to those to which they workload of the magistrates courts, will my right hon. would have to adapt if they obtained a job when they and learned Friend make it his policy to decriminalise left prison, and that they would be able to produce the non-payment of the BBC television licence fee, so goods, for instance, generating earnings that would help that the BBC, like every other organisation, must them to make a contribution to compensation for victims. recover its civil debts civilly rather than through the However, I am not sure that each of those programmes magistrates courts? would need to be subjected to a public acceptability test. Mr Clarke: I am not sure that that is my responsibility at present; I will consult my right hon. Friend the T6. [17841] Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Many millions of pounds are spent on court cases Sport. I can only say that the last time I can remember a involving divorcing couples. Yesterday David Norgrove Government attempting to do that, the idea was not was quoted as saying that the Department was looking met with a great deal of favour by the BBC—but I shall to a Swedish model to help to resolve divorce cases— find out exactly where we are now. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Name her! Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Matthew Hancock: What changes does the Secretary Like many others, I would like to see less use of short-term of State propose to make, and how much would— prison sentences, but will the Justice Secretary expand [Interruption.] on his curious remark a little earlier that there is little evidence that prison does any good to anyone? Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the rest of the question. It is becoming more fascinating by the word. Mr Clarke: If I said that, it was one of those slips of the tongue that I very rarely make. Prison is the best Matthew Hancock: What does the Secretary of State and only punishment for serious criminal offenders; it is intend to learn from the Swedish model, and how much the one that we all want to use. It has a strong punitive money would be saved? element if the just and correct sentence is given, and the public are, of course, spared from the crimes of the Mr Djanogly: We have some good English models individual for so long as he is in prison—but we should too. Family mediation can be quicker, cheaper and less also strive to do much better than we have ever done stressful, and provide better outcomes, than contested before in reducing the likelihood of the person reoffending court proceedings. We know that informing people about and committing new crimes as soon as he is released. I mediation helps them to understand how it can enable am, however, delighted to hear that the right hon. them to avoid long-drawn-out cases. I am pleased to Gentleman agrees with me that short-term sentences report that the issue forms part of the Norgrove review, are used too much. He should have a word with his which we will follow with great interest. party’s newly appointed Front-Bench spokesman, before that Front-Bench spokesman slips into the folly of the Mr Speaker: I call Chris Leslie. He is not here, so I last 10 years. call Mr David Winnick. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Since no Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): How many funding was in place from the previous Government for of those who were seriously injured in the 7/7 bombings the post of chief coroner, the decision not to go ahead are still waiting for compensation? Presumably the with it was hardly surprising, but does that not leave a Department has some responsibility in that regard. As gap both in raising standards and in having an appeal for the claims that have been finalised, is the Secretary procedure less costly than judicial review? 795 Oral Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 796

Mr Djanogly: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving we are going to readdress the law. The Leader of the me an opportunity to explain the fact that we aim to House is sitting alongside me, and he tells me that improve the coroner system in line with most of the legislation will be introduced in the House very soon. policy in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. However, the purpose of abolishing the chief coroner post is, first, T9. [17844] Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): to save the £10 million start-up costs and then the When can those opposed to the closure of Skipton £6.5 million running costs, but also so that some of the court expect to hear a decision about it, and can the chief coroner’s leadership and operational functions Minister reassure me that its unique rural case will be can be transferred to an alternative body. listened to carefully?

Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The Secretary of State Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend has made strong will be aware that prisoners held within the prison estate representations in support of the court, and they were are still allowed to smoke tobacco. Does the Secretary well received. The decision will be taken shortly before of State agree that that presents a huge health risk to the Christmas recess. Prison Service employees, and are the Government considering the matter? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Will the Lord Chancellor update the House on the Mr Blunt: As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, Government’s thinking on prisoners having the right to the prisoner’s cell is regarded as his home for the vote? purposes of the smoking legislation, and that is what gives them their rights in that regard. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government, led by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, are giving T8. [17843] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) careful consideration to that point. (Con): My right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary will be aware of the considerable disquiet felt T10. [17845] DrJohnPugh(Southport)(LD):TheMinistry about the Judicial Appointments Commission both by has a laudable and exemplary commitment to evidence-led those within the ranks of the judiciary and by those policy. Given that, can the Minister assure me that seeking preferment to it. According to the Library, the when he reviews the magistrates courts, he will look cost of the JAC to his Department is in the order of critically at the information on the condition and use of £10 million annually. That is for the discharge of Southport’s courts in the Ministry’s consultation functions formerly performed by the Lord Chancellor’s document—which is, frankly, duff, inaccurate and Department for an amount that I have little doubt was misleading? one twentieth of that. We saw the axe taken to a number of quangos this week; when can the House expect the JAC to join them? Mr Djanogly: I do not know how the consultation report was misleading, but if the hon. Gentleman contacts Mr Kenneth Clarke: I do not think we are going to me later I shall be happy to look at it. abolish the JAC, and it did not appear on the list for the axe this week. My hon. Friend makes a well-founded Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I am point, however. While retaining the commission, we will sure that the Ministry of Justice is aware of early-day take a close look at improving the way it operates, motion 794 in my name, on the Court of Appeal ruling particularly in respect of the amount that it is now on mesothelioma liability. I received a letter this morning costing, the time it is taking to make appointments, and from the Association of British Insurers. I will deal with the burdensome processes that are sometimes introduced. their very polite request that I withdraw my early-day motion after this, but first I want to focus briefly on its Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Perhaps it was also assertion that a slip of the tongue when the Secretary of State completely “the industry and the ABI agrees…that the appropriate trigger failed to answer the question asked by my hon. Friend point for employers’ liability policies is the point of exposure” the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). to asbestos, Before the election, Members now sitting on the “not the point at which the disease develops”— Government Benches, from the current Prime Minister down, all promised on umpteen occasions to sort out the disease being mesothelioma. Does the Minister the issue of universal jurisdiction. Why have they so far agree? completely failed to do anything about it at all? Why are they shilly-shallying about? When are they going to get Mr Djanogly: This is not a matter on which we it dealt with? propose to legislate in the near future, but if the hon. Lady wishes to discuss the issue further with me, I shall Mr Clarke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; for be happy to meet her. some reason, I completely failed to get the full point of what was being said. I thought it was being suggested Several hon. Members rose— that there should be a different method for dealing with foreign arrests than for domestic arrests. I entirely agree Mr Speaker: I am sorry, but we must cut things off with the point that has been made. We have already said there; as usual, demand has exceeded supply. 797 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 798 Review Strategic Defence and Security Review Fourthly, the review has been very different from those that went before it. It has considered all elements of national security, home and abroad, not just defence 3.31 pm on its own. It has been led from the top with all the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With relevant people around the table and, crucially, it will be permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement repeated every five years. The review sets out a step on the strategic defence and security review. There are change in the way we protect this country’s security four things that I would like to say up front. First, this is interests. We will move from a Ministry of Defence that not simply a cost-saving exercise to get to grips with the is too big, too inefficient and too over-spent to a Department biggest budget deficit in post-war history. It is about that is smaller, smarter, and more responsible in its taking the right decisions to protect our national security spending; from a strategy that is over-reliant on military in the years ahead, but let me say this: the two are not intervention to a higher priority for conflict prevention; separate. Our national security depends on our economic from concentrating on conventional threats to having a strength, and vice versa. new focus on unconventional threats; and from armed forces that are overstretched and under-equipped and As our national security is a priority, defence and that have been deployed too often without appropriate security budgets will contribute to deficit reduction on a planning to the most professional and most flexible lower scale than most other Departments. Over four modem forces in the world, fully equipped for the years, the defence budget will rise in cash terms, and fall challenges of the future. by only 8% in real terms. It will meet the NATO 2% of gross domestic product target for defence spending I want to take each of those in turn— throughout the next four years. But this Government Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): What about the have inherited a £38-billion black hole in our future cuts? defence plans. That is bigger than the entire annual defence budget of £33 billion. Sorting this out is vital The Prime Minister: I shall give the hon. Gentleman not just for tackling the deficit, but for protecting our all the figures he requires. national security. First, even though the Ministry of Defence will get Secondly, this review is about how we project power real growth in its budget next year, the Department will and influence in a rapidly changing world. We are the face some significant challenges, so the MOD will cut sixth largest economy in the world. Even after this its estate, dispose of unnecessary assets, renegotiate review, we expect to continue with the fourth largest contracts with industry and cut its management overheads, military budget in the world. We have a unique network including reducing civilian numbers in the MOD, by of alliances and relationships—with the United States, 25,000 by 2015. We will also adjust and simplify civilian as a member of the EU and NATO, and as a permanent and military allowances. The new higher operational member of the UN Security Council. We have one of allowance stays, but there will be difficult decisions, the biggest aid programmes in the world, one of the although these will be made easier by the return of the biggest networks of embassies, a time zone that allows Army from Germany. Taken together, all those changes us to trade with Asia in the morning and the Americas in the MOD will save £4.7 billion over the spending in the afternoon, and a language that is spoken across review period. the globe. Our national interest requires our full and Getting to grips with procurement is vital. The Nimrod active engagement in world affairs. It requires our economy programme, for example, has cost the British taxpayer to compete with the strongest and the best, and it requires, more than £3 billion; the number of aircraft to be too, that we stand up for the values that we believe in. procured has fallen from 21 to nine; the cost per aircraft Britain has traditionally punched above its weight in has increased by more than 200%; and it is more than the world, and we should have no less ambition for our eight years late. Today, we are announcing its cancellation. country in the decades to come, but we need to be more Secondly, from military intervention to conflict thoughtful, more strategic and more co-ordinated in the prevention, Iraq and Afghanistan have shown the immense way we advance our interests and protect our national financial and human costs of large scale military security. That is what this review sets out to achieve. interventions, and although we must retain the ability Thirdly, I want to be clear: there is no cut whatsoever to undertake such operations we must get better at in the support for our forces in Afghanistan. The funding treating the causes of instability, not just dealing with for our operations in Afghanistan comes not from the the consequences. When we fail to prevent conflict and budget of the Ministry of Defence, but instead from the have to resort to military intervention, the costs are Treasury special reserve, so changes to the Ministry of always far higher. We will expand our capability to Defence that result from today’s review will not affect deploy military and civilian teams to support stabilisation this funding. efforts and build capacity in other states and we will Furthermore, every time the chiefs of staff have double our investment in aid for fragile and unstable advised me that a particular change might have implications countries so that by 2015 just under a third of the for our operations in Afghanistan, either now or in the budget of the Department for International Development years to come, I have heeded that advice. In fact, we will be spent on conflict prevention. have been and will be providing more for our brave Thirdly, we need to focus more of our resources not forces in Afghanistan: more equipment to counter the on the conventional threats of the past but on the threat from improvised explosive devices; more protected unconventional threats of the future. So, over the next vehicles, such as the Warthog heavy protection vehicle, four years we will invest more than £500 million of new which will be out there by the end of the year; more money in a national cyber-security programme. That surveillance capability, including unmanned aircraft systems; will significantly enhance our ability to detect and defend and, crucially, at last, the right level of helicopter capability. against cyber attacks and it will fix shortfalls in the 799 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 800 Review Review [The Prime Minister] operate in secret across the world’s oceans, those submarines will also feed vital strategic intelligence back to the UK. critical cyber infrastructure on which the whole country We will complete the production of six Type 45 destroyers now depends. We will continue to prioritise tackling the —one of the most effective multi-role destroyers in the terrorist threat both from al-Qaeda and its affiliates and world. We will also start a new programme to develop from dissident republicans in Northern Ireland. Although less expensive, more flexible, modern frigates. Total efficiencies will need to be made, we are giving priority naval manpower will reduce to around 30,000 by 2015—that to continuing investment in our world-class intelligence is a reduction of 5,000—and by 2020 the total number agencies and we will sharpen our readiness to act on of frigates and destroyers will reduce from 23 to 19. civil emergencies, energy security, organised crime, counter- However, the fleet as a whole will be better able to take proliferation and border security. on today’s tasks—from tackling drug trafficking and Fourthly, and crucially, we need to move from armed piracy to counter-terrorism. forces that are over-stretched and under-equipped to The Royal Air Force will also need to take some the most modern and professional flexible forces in the tough measures in the coming years to ensure a strong world. We inherited an Army with scores of tanks in future. We have decided to retire the Harrier, which has Germany, but that was until recently forced to face the served this country so well for 40 years. It is a remarkably deadly threat of improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan flexible aircraft, but the military advice is clear: we with Land Rovers designed for Northern Ireland. We should sustain the Tornado fleet as that aircraft is more have a Royal Air Force hampered in its efforts to capable and better able to sustain operations in Afghanistan. support our forces overseas by an ageing strategic airlift RAF manpower will also reduce to around 33,000 by fleet and we have a Royal Navy locked into a cycle of 2015—again, that is a reduction of 5,000. Inevitably, ever smaller numbers of ever more expensive ships. We that will mean changes in the way in which some RAF cannot go on like this. bases are used, but some are likely to be required by the The White Paper we have published today sets out a Army as forces return from Germany. We owe it to clear vision for the future structure of our armed forces. communities up and down the country who have supported The precise budgets beyond 2015 will be agreed in our armed forces for many years to engage with them future spending reviews. My own strong view is that this before final decisions are taken. structure will require year-on-year real-terms growth in By the 2020s, the Royal Air Force will be based the defence budget in the years beyond 2015. Between around a fleet of two of the most capable fighter jets now and then the Government are committed to the anywhere in the world—a modernised Typhoon fleet, vision of 2020 set out in the review and we will make fully capable of air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, decisions accordingly. We are also absolutely determined and the joint strike fighter, the world’s most advanced that the Ministry of Defence will become much more multi-role combat jet. The fleet will be complemented commercially hard-headed in future and will adopt a by a growing number of unmanned aerial vehicles and much more aggressive drive for efficiencies. the A400M transport aircraft together with the existing The transition from the mess we inherited to that fleet of C-17 aircraft and the future strategic tanker coherent future will be a difficult process, especially in aircraft. This will allow us to fly our forces wherever the current economic conditions, but we are determined they are needed in the world. to take the necessary steps. Our ground forces will As we focus our resources on the most likely threats continue to have a vital operational role, so we will to our security, so we will remain vigilant against all retain a large, well-equipped Army, numbering around possible threats and we should retain the capability to 95,500 by 2015—7,000 fewer than today. We will continue react to the unexpected. As we cut back on tanks and to be one of very few countries able to deploy a self- heavy artillery, we will retain the ability to regenerate sustaining, properly equipped, brigade-sized force anywhere those capabilities if need be; and while in the short term around the world and to sustain it indefinitely if needs the ability to deploy air power from the sea is unlikely to be. We will also be able to put 30,000 into the field for a be essential, over the longer term we cannot assume major, one-off operation. that bases for land-based aircraft will always be available In terms of the return from Germany, half our personnel when and where we need them, so we will ensure the should be back by 2015 and the remainder by 2020. UK has carrier strike capability for the future. This is Tank and heavy artillery numbers will be reduced by another area where I believe the last Government got it about 40%, but the introduction of 12 new heavy lift badly wrong. There is only one thing worse than spending Chinook helicopters, new protected mobility vehicles money you don’t have, and that is buying the wrong and enhanced communications equipment will make things with it—and doing so in the wrong way. The the Army more mobile, more flexible and better equipped carriers they ordered were unable to work effectively to face future threats than ever before. with our key defence partners, the United States or We will also review the structure of our reserve forces France. They had failed to plan so carriers and planes to ensure that we make the most efficient use of their would arrive at the same time. They ordered the more skills, experience and outstanding capabilities. That review expensive and less capable version of the joint strike will be chaired by the vice-chief of the defence staff, fighter to fly off the carriers. And they signed contracts, General Houghton, and my hon. Friend the Member so we were left in a situation where even cancelling the for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who has served for many second carrier would actually cost more than to build it. years in the reserves, will act as his very able deputy. [Interruption.] I have this in written confirmation from The Royal Navy will be similarly equipped to meet BAE Systems. the challenges of the 21st century. We are procuring a That is the legacy we inherited—an appalling legacy fleet of the most capable nuclear powered hunter-killer the British people have every right to be angry about, Astute class submarines anywhere in the world. Able to but I say to them today: we will act in the national 801 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 802 Review Review interest. We would not have started from here, but the I thank the Prime Minister for advance notice of his right decisions are now being made in the right way and statement—in today’s papers, yesterday’s papers, Sunday’s for the right reasons. papers, Saturday’s papers and Friday’s papers. It almost It will take time to rectify these mistakes, but this is did not matter that I got his statement at 3.15 pm how we intend to do so. We will build both carriers, but because I had read so much of it in the newspapers, but, hold one in extended readiness. We will fit the “cats and as someone who takes Parliament seriously, I have to traps”—the catapults and arrester gear—to the operational say to the Prime Minister that the process of announcement carrier. This will allow our allies to operate from our of the review has been a complete shambles. I genuinely operational carrier, and it will allow us to buy the hope he will learn the lessons from it. carrier version of the joint strike fighter, which is more On issues of defence and national security, we will capable, less expensive, has a longer range and carries always seek to be constructive. I believe the Prime more weapons. We will also aim to bring the planes and Minister approaches the challenge of national defence, the carriers in at the same time. as all Governments have done, with the right intentions, and it does neither our politics nor our armed services Finally, we cannot dismiss the possibility that a major any good to imply anything different. That is the approach direct nuclear threat to the UK might re-emerge, so we I shall follow today. will retain and renew the ultimate insurance policy—our independent nuclear deterrent, which guards our country The cuts announced today clearly represent a significant round the clock every day of the year. We have completed reduction in our defence spending, but what matters in a value for money review of our future deterrent plans, our defence spending is what the money does for our and as a result we can do the following. We can extend defence and security needs. That is what I want to focus the life of the Vanguard class so that the first replacement on today. First, I remind the Prime Minister of the submarine is not required until 2028; we can reduce the concern expressed by the Defence Secretary in the letter number of operational launch tubes on those new to him. He said that submarines from 12 to eight; we can reduce the number “this process is looking less and less defensible as a proper of warheads on our submarines at sea from 48 to 40; SDSR”. and we can reduce our stockpile of operational warheads The Prime Minister will know that the concern that the from fewer than 160 to fewer than 120. Defence Secretary expressed was expressed not just by The next phase of the programme to renew our the Defence Secretary, but by the Chair of the Select deterrent, the so-called “initial gate,” will start by the Committee, by many Members of the House and by end of this year. But as a result of the changes to the many independent observers. programme, the decision to start construction of the new Is it not instructive that the strategic defence review submarines need not now be taken until around 2016. of 1998 took 15 months to complete and involved much We will save around £1.2 billion and defer a further greater consultation and in-depth study? May I ask the £2 billion of spending from the next 10 years. So, yes, Prime Minister to respond to the widespread perception we will save money, but we will retain and renew a that the review has been driven only by short-term credible, continuous and effective minimum nuclear considerations? Does he think, on reflection, that it deterrent that will stand constant guard over our nation’s would have been better to have had a longer-term security. strategic defence review, continuing after the spending Finally, the immense contribution of our highly review? professional special forces is necessarily largely unreported, Secondly, may I ask the Prime Minister about the but their immense capability is recognised across the most immediate and pressing issue of Afghanistan? I world. We are significantly increasing our investment in reiterate that we support the mission in Afghanistan our special forces to ensure they remain at the leading and will work in a bipartisan way with him to stabilise edge of operational capability, prepared to meet current the country and bring our troops home safely. I was and future threats, and maintaining their unique and reassured by what he said in his statement about specialist role. This enhanced capability will allow them Afghanistan, but may I ask him for some further assurances to remain at “extremely high readiness” for emergency that he has been told by the Chief of the Defence Staff operations. that no decision announced today will in any way We were left a budget £38 billion overspent, armed undermine or disadvantage our military operations in forces at war, overstretched, under-equipped and ill Afghanistan? prepared for the challenges of the future, and the biggest I welcome what today’s statement said about delivering budget deficit in post-war history. I believe we have new equipment, but may I raise with the Prime Minister begun to deal with all these things, sorting out the the issue of extra helicopters? People will remember legacy and fitting Britain’s defences for the future. I that he made much of the issue of helicopters in the commend this statement to the House. previous Parliament. The order, as I understand it, was for 22 extra helicopters, but the document produced Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): May I today states on page 25 that “12 new Chinook helicopters” start by joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to will be ordered. I simply ask the Prime Minister to the men and women of our armed forces? I also want to explain the discrepancy between the 22 helicopters that pay tribute to their families, who sustain their loved I believe he wanted in the previous Parliament, and the ones as they prepare for, serve on and recover from 12 that have been ordered. operational service. They are the best of Britain, and we Thirdly, I am sure the Prime Minister would agree should recognise that in the House here today. We must that a key part of preparing for the challenge of the ensure that their interests are protected in all the decisions future is the targeting of limited national resources on we make. the most pressing threats. He mentioned terrorism in his 803 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 804 Review Review [Edward Miliband] The Opposition will support him where we can, but we will also give his strategy serious scrutiny, and where statement, and the national security strategy identified necessary and appropriate we will subject it to the terrorism as a tier 1 threat. Given that today’s announcement principled and responsible opposition it deserves. forms only a partial response to yesterday’s national security strategy, can he assure the House that nothing The Prime Minister: I welcome what the right hon. announced tomorrow in the changes to the Home Office Gentleman said about our armed forces. Anyone who budget will in any way undermine or weaken our ability does my job or that of Defence Secretary knows that we to counter terrorism in all its forms? have in our armed forces the bravest of the brave, some Fourthly, on the issue of preparing our armed forces of the most professional and dedicated people, and for future challenges, we agree that savings can be made everyone in this House looks up to them and is proud of on the legacy cold war capability, such as in the number them. of Challenger tanks and in heavy artillery. However, I seek reassurance from the Prime Minister that he is I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is content that the decisions made today do not in any here at all, because of course today is the day of the way compromise our ability to support current operations TUC rally that he promised to attend. I am very glad and defend our interests round the world. In particular, that he got his priorities right, and I am sure that all the what does the capability gap arising from the scrapping trade unionists who voted for him will fully understand. of our Harriers and the withdrawal of Ark Royal mean The right hon. Gentleman complained that I had not for our force projection, which was made much of in the got him the statement early enough, but I got the national security strategy document yesterday? What document to him two hours ago, which I do not remember does it mean for our ability to defend our overseas his predecessor being very quick to do, but there we are. territories? In that context, will he also reassure the I might be being unfair. House that the best strategic decision for the next I thought that the right hon. Gentleman should have decade really is for Britain to have aircraft carriers started his statement with one word—“sorry”: sorry for without aircraft, which is the decision he announced the £38 billion of overspend in the MOD; sorry for the today? fact that the previous Government left more civil servants May I also ask the Prime Minister about two things than we had sailors or airmen; sorry for the £2.3 billion that he did not mention in his statement? Will he that they spent on refurbishing the Ministry of Defence; confirm what he did not tell the House but what I think and sorry for the completely unsustainable promises is set out on page 19 of the review—that he is today that they made. announcing a one-third reduction in the number of The right hon. Gentleman asked a series of questions, troops that Britain can deploy on both short-term and and I shall try to answer every single one. He compared enduring bases? Will he also take the opportunity to this review with the 1998 review, but one crucial difference respond to the huge disappointment that there will be in is that the 1998 review did not include the funding to go south Wales, following the decision announced in a with the promises that were made. Yes, we have made written ministerial statement this morning to terminate tough decisions in this review, but the funding is there the defence training college at St Athan, which he to meet the promises that have been made. personally promised would go ahead? Fifthly, there will be concerns that the review has The right hon. Gentleman said that the review was all failed to address strategically the important questions about short-term considerations, but I have to say that about the future of our nuclear deterrent. All parts of we have made some long-term decisions: to invest the House support the retention of the nuclear deterrent, £650 million in cyber at a time when one is making cuts alongside progress in multilateral disarmament talks, is a long-term decision; to sort out the future of the butcanIsay—[Interruption.] carriers is a long-term decision; and scrapping many tanks and heavy artillery involves difficult but long-term Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the decisions. On his idea that we should take longer over it, Leader of the Opposition. Mr Ellwood, these constant I have to tell him that these decisions do not get any sedentary heckles are not necessary, they are not welcome easier by just putting them off. We have had a proper and they do not help you. process—a national security process. I note that during his leadership election, he said: Edward Miliband: There will be concern that the “I think there is a strong case for carrying out our own Prime Minister has announced a whole range of decisions Strategic Defence Review so that we can give appropriate scrutiny on Trident, despite telling us for months that it was not to the Government’s plan”. part of the strategic defence review. He made much of I have not seen that review; perhaps it will emerge the issue of the procurement budget, but will he confirm eventually. that by choosing to delay Trident, he is creating a large unfunded spending commitment in the next Parliament— On the right hon. Gentleman’s question about no precisely the problem he told us he wants to get away decision doing damage to what we are doing in Afghanistan, from in procurement. I made it clear in my statement, and I make it clear We will help the Prime Minister and his Government again to him now, that that has been absolutely uppermost as they seek to do what is best for our country’s security, in my mind. but many people will believe that this review is a profound The reason I kept talking about helicopters in the last missed opportunity. It is a spending review dressed up Parliament is that every time I went to Afghanistan, as a defence review; it has been chaotically conducted that is what the troops on the ground were worried and hastily prepared; and it is simply not credible as a about. Now, talking to our troops on the ground—I did strategic blueprint for our future defence needs. a video conference call with the commander of our 805 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 806 Review Review forces in Helmand only a few days ago—one finds that on the future of the Trident nuclear deterrent until that is not their concern; they now have the helicopters 2016—after the general election, when, for all we know, they need. Let me answer specifically the point about Lib Dem Ministers may still be there in Cabinet and, the Chinook order. There was no order for Chinook having been lifelong opponents of the nuclear deterrent, helicopters—it was this Government who have had to will continue to try to veto it, so that this decision looks fund that. The number of Chinooks is going from 46 to like a subordination of the national interest to the 60, and we will also be refurbishing the Puma helicopters political expediency of keeping the coalition going? to add to capacity. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the Home The Prime Minister: I really can reassure my—[Interruption.] Office budget; he will have to wait until tomorrow for that. However, I would stress again that this decision—this Mr Speaker: Order. First, it is courteous to listen to document—was brought about by the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, and secondly, I want to hear his the Foreign Secretary, the International Development answer. Secretary and the Business Secretary sitting round as a National Security Council making the right decisions. The Prime Minister: I really can reassure my hon. On his question about being able to produce 30,000 Friend. I am a very strong supporter of replacing forces in theatre, that was in my statement. Trident. We have sought the best military advice on Let me address very directly the issue of the capability what is right for its replacement, and the fact is that gap, because this has been the most difficult decision for because we have been operating the Vanguard submarines the Government to take. There is no gap in our flexible for many years, we know what their life can be. We posture. With our air-to-air refuelling and our fast jet know that it is absolutely right to go through the initial capability, we have the ability to deploy force around gate this year—we are spending some £700 million in the world, but I accept that there is going to be a gap in this Parliament on Trident’s replacement—but to go carrier strike. The alternative would be to keep the through the final gate of actually commissioning the Harriers but not to keep the Tornados. I think that that building in 2016. We are on track to replace Trident and would be the wrong decision. The Harriers, in any have a full-service nuclear deterrent. It is the right event, would have to be in Afghanistan, not on an decision, and it saves money at the same time. That is aircraft carrier. The Harrier, while a brilliant aircraft, is what we should do. not as capable as the Tornado. There are fewer Harriers than Tornados, so there would be a question as to Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): Is whether they could sustain the action in Afghanistan. not the Prime Minister doing precisely what he criticises The premise underlying the question is not right. The with regard to Trident? He is putting off the decision current carriers are not equivalent to the future carriers and delaying the expenditure, thereby increasing it. He that we are building. I have to say to hon. Gentlemen has also cancelled the Nimrod aircraft, rendering our who may think, “Well, why not try to keep all of nuclear deterrent less than invulnerable. How is that them—the Tornados, Harriers and Typhoons—and develop sensible, never mind strategic? the joint strike fighter?”, that that would be prohibitively expensive. As I say, it is the sort of decision that was The Prime Minister: Let me first answer the right taken in the last Parliament just to push these things off hon. Gentleman’s last question. What we are proposing into the future. We have to make the tough decisions would mean no reduction in continuous at-sea deterrence, now to line up our forces for the future. which is vital. We set out that we were committed to The right hon. Gentleman’s last question was on Trident’s replacement but wanted a value-for-money Trident. I have been saving that up for the end because I review, and we asked the Ministry of Defence to go was so excited by his questions. We held a value-for-money through all the possibilities and look to see how we review on Trident because we really wanted to find out could extend the life of the existing submarines, work what money we could save, and we are saving money, on Trident’s replacement and ensure that we had continuous including £700 in this Parliament—that is money available at-sea deterrence all the way through. Those are the to invest in other things, and it does nothing to risk our sorts of questions, frankly, that the last Government Trident replacement. I believe that Trident is vital to should have asked. It would be irresponsible not to do our nation’s security and, having looked at all the so if we want to have a full-service nuclear deterrent but evidence, that a proper full replacement of Trident is want value for money. That is the sort of thing that the the right option for the future. These are responsible last Government should have been asking about. decisions, well made. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman, who is now running away from the Trident Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): May I replacement that he supported, that that would be a offer the Prime Minister some comfort in relation to profound mistake for this country. Trident and say that I welcome the proposals, particularly as they are consistent with the Liberal Democrat position Several hon. Members rose— and also make an important contribution to multilateral Mr Speaker: Order. A great many right hon. and hon. nuclear disarmament? Will he confirm that between Members are seeking to catch my eye. As always, I want now and 2016, he will continue to pursue opportunities to maximise the number of contributors, but brevity in for multilateral nuclear disarmament, and also investigate questions and answers alike is vital to the chances of the possibilities for greater military co-operation, including doing so. nuclear co-operation, with the French? Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Does The Prime Minister: Of course we will continue to the Prime Minister understand that many will view with look at our responsibilities on nuclear disarmament, great concern the decision to postpone the vital decisions which we believe can be done on a multilateral basis, 807 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 808 Review Review [The Prime Minister] break between the Vanguard submarines and what will follow. I am satisfied from all the evidence I have seen and of course we should be looking at co-operation that that is what we will get. The reason that we have with the French. Let me say to anyone who fears that been able to do that is that the Vanguard submarines that is a cloak for a European army that it is completely have been operating for longer. We now know about the opposite. Britain and France have very shared assets their life extension and what is possible. It is possible to and very shared interests in developing our Army and continue with the independent nuclear deterrent and its Air Force and working out where we can work together replacement without a break in capability. to increase our sovereign capability. I will be having a defence summit with President Sarkozy before Christmas, Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Thoughts must go at which I think we can make some very exciting steps to servicemen and servicewomen in communities around forward. the country. Many will be worried about their futures The one place where I would probably part company following the Prime Minister’s statement, including with the right hon. and learned Gentleman is that thousands at RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss in although I know the Liberal Democrats are absolutely Moray. Does he understand that if both those bases entitled to use the time between now and 2016 to look close, it will mean a 25% cut in the uniform service posts at alternatives, from looking at those alternatives I do in Scotland as a whole? Given that it will cost more to not think that any of them would give us the assurance close RAF Lossiemouth than to maintain it as a Tornado of having a full-service nuclear deterrent with the Trident base, will he or the Defence Secretary meet me to submarine and missile system. I do not think the alternatives discuss its future? come up to scratch in anything like the ways some of their proponents propose, but under our coalition agreement The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Defence he is free to continue to look at that. The programme Secretary will be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman. for replacing Trident is on track and going ahead. Clearly, RAF Kinloss will not be required by the RAF following the decisions that we have taken, but we are not announcing base closures today because more armed Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime service personnel will come home from Germany than Minister has announced cuts and deferred defence decisions will lose their positions following my announcements. today, and tomorrow the Chancellor will announce cuts There is therefore an opportunity to use RAF bases for to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the BBC other military purposes. I hate to make too much of a World Service, yet the national security strategy states: political point, but one wonders how many bases and “The National Security Council has reached a clear conclusion how much capability there would be if there were an that Britain’s national interest requires us to reject any notion of independent Scotland. the shrinkage of our influence.” Given that statement, is it not true that the national Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): That is outrageous! security strategy is not worth the paper it is written on? Mr Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that The Prime Minister: May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman he must calm himself, however strongly he feels. I want a novel idea? Why do we not start looking at what we to hear the Chair of the Defence Select Committee. get out of public spending rather than what we put in? He will see in the strategy that we are actually ensuring Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): that we get the things we need for our Army, Navy and The Defence Select Committee will wish to give the Air Force. We are going to get greater efficiencies, even review very close scrutiny. It seems to take a real gamble in vital bodies such as the intelligence services—that is with the short term in order to provide security and what we have to do at a time when we have such large stability in the longer term, but how will my right hon. deficits and debts—but he can see the priority that this Friend answer those who say, as they will, “If we can get Government give to defence and national security in the away with no fast jet aircraft carriers for 10 years, why decisions that we have taken. do we need them at all?” Will he defend the Defence budget against such an attack? Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): With such a thankless task because of the economic background, The Prime Minister: That is absolutely the crucial may I commend the Prime Minister and his colleagues question and the one that I personally spent the most for ensuring that even though reductions in defence time on. In many ways, the politically easy answer capability are inescapable at the moment, we will be would be to keep Harriers in service and thereby pretend able to reverse many of them if our economy improves that there would be no real carrier-strike gap between and resources increase? May I also suggest that the the carriers we have now and those we will have in whole House ought to welcome the prospect of saving future, but militarily, that would be the wrong thing to £700 million on Trident without interfering with continuous do. Our greatest priority today is making sure that we at-sea deterrence? Is he satisfied that the technical evidence have what we need in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the that he has been given supports that conclusion? Harrier did great work, but the Tornado is more capable and carries a bigger payload, which is vital. Retiring the The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. and learned Harrier and keeping the Tornado is the right decision. Friend for his question. As a lifelong supporter of On our ability to project power around the world, as I Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent and someone said in answer to the Leader of the Opposition, we have who wants us to have a full service replacement, I air-to-air refuelling, the friendly bases, our allies and wanted to make absolutely sure that we would have overfly rights. It is not easy to see in the short term the continuous at-sea deterrence and that there would be no need for that sort of carrier strike, but we cannot rule it 809 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 810 Review Review out for the longer term. I think that a good decision Afghanistan in five years, no matter what. Do the plus a carrier strike gap is better than a bad decision assumptions he has made assume that that is still the with what we might pretend is no gap. Actually, there is case and that the capability will therefore reduce over a big difference between our current carriers with the those five years? Harriers on board and the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers that we will have in future, with the joint strike fighter, The Prime Minister: Along with our NATO partners, which has a far larger range. we believe that there is a clear programme of training It is difficult, but, having heard all the arguments, I up the Afghan national army, police and security forces am convinced. I came at the problem as a politician so that they should be in the lead by 2014. That is our quite tempted by the easy political answer, but the right aim, and in addition I have said that by 2015 we should military answer is the right thing to do for our country. not be in a major combat role or there in major numbers. By then we will have been in Helmand province for Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): longer than the entire second world war. We will have The Prime Minister will know that the country’s only played our part, and I am confident that we are making remaining factory for the manufacture of battle tanks good progress so that the 2014 calendar to which NATO and heavy fighting vehicles is located in Newcastle upon is committed will go ahead. I do not accept that taking Tyne. Is the factory of strategic importance to the long-term, difficult decisions about the defence of our United Kingdom—being the only one we have—and country makes us somehow anti-defence—the opposite will he say what implications today’s announcement has is true. I am passionate about our armed forces, what for the factory? they represent in our country and what they do on our behalf, but we do not serve them by putting off decisions The Prime Minister: Clearly—and everyone will accept for the future, making all sorts of airy-fairy promises this—we need to get away from the sort of cold war and then not funding them. tactics of having massed tank regiments in Germany, as we have had in the past. The statement as a whole is Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): It extremely positive for Britain’s industrial base, in terms was sad to hear this morning that the appointment of of things such as the joint strike fighter, in which we Metrix as the preferred bidder for the St Athan project have a huge participation; the A400M, which we will be had been terminated, although we can understand the building; and the shipbuilding that will continue on the reasons. It is a disappointment for the armed forces who Clyde. Obviously, we need to retain key sovereign capabilities need those facilities, as well as for Wales and the Welsh and we have to ask in each case what is strictly necessary. economy. The statement also says that Clearly, we will retain a number of tanks and we need “work on the alternative options will begin as soon as possible”. them to be properly serviced and workable, because we Can the Prime Minister give us an assurance that the cannot predict all future conflicts—and it would be a St Athan site will remain prominent among those options? mistake for a document such as this to try to do so.

Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): May I welcome The Prime Minister: I absolutely can give my hon. this review, and especially the careful analysis that has Friend that assurance. The current programme and PFI gone into it and the conclusions that have been reached? for St Athan is not affordable, but this is not the end of Does the Prime Minister agree that this is just the the road for training at St Athan. Training, including starting point for a fundamental transformation of fire training, takes place there now, and everybody defence in this country so that in 10 years’ time we will knows that the MOD and our armed forces need to have a defence posture and capability capable of securing train together and in fewer places—and St Athan is the way ahead for Great Britain? perfectly placed to bid for that training. There will now be intense discussions between the MOD and others to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. The try to bring that about. whole point about this review is that it has a vision for what our forces should look like in 2020—10 years’ time Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): For rather than just five years’ time. Because the Ministry of obvious reasons, the Prime Minister was not able to list Defence and the service chiefs can now see their budgets in his statement all the vessels that will potentially be for the whole of the spending review period, they can scrapped. Those vessels may include HMS Chatham, make proper plans and try to drive some efficiencies HMS Cornwall and HMS Ocean, but those are all due through the MOD so that they get even more for the for refit in Devonport. Without that work, 300 jobs will money that they have. We must have reviews every five be at risk and the skills base will also be at risk, because years. The problem has been that we had a review in there is an 18-month trough in the period in which 1998, which was not properly funded, and then a sort of those vessels will be refitted. What discussions did he scissors crisis, in which the commitments went in one have on the issue of the skills base with the defence direction and the ability to fund them went in another industries before this announcement? direction. To stop that happening in future, we need regular defence reviews and that is what we are committed The Prime Minister: I know the hon. Lady has a very to having. strong constituency interest in this matter, and perhaps I can get back to her in greater detail on the refit Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): We have now seen some programme. I can tell her that HMS Ocean will be of the biggest cuts ever in defence, as we saw when the going into refit. Clearly, as we have explained, the Conservatives were last in power. The so-called party of number of frigates and destroyers combined will be defence is no longer the party of defence. The Prime coming down to 19. The decision on the future of HMS Minister has already said that we should be out of Ocean and HMS Illustrious will have to be taken on the 811 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 812 Review Review [The Prime Minister] of the system. Will he explain his reason for delaying this vital vote into the next Parliament, other than to basis of what is the best platform for the use of helicopters. make our ultimate deterrent a political gambling chip The best thing is for us, as we go through the details, to to satisfy the Liberal Democrats? tell her more about what I think will be fundamentally good news for both Plymouth and Portsmouth, because The Prime Minister: I worked with my hon. Friend we want to keep both naval bases—and keep them busy. for many, many years, and I know that he takes an The communities there are hugely supportive of our extremely close and professional interest in this matter. armed forces and give them tremendous backing. I have I remember he did it when there was not a single never believed that it is right to put all our defence eggs supporter of nuclear deterrence on the Labour Benches. into a very small number of bases, as it were, so Portsmouth, He did a great service to the country. However, I would Plymouth and Faslane will of course all go ahead. make two points to him: first, the military advice is that we need to go through the main gate in 2016, not earlier. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): I would also like to make another, slightly more frivolous I commend my right hon. Friend’s determination to point: I am not as lacking in confidence as he is that adopt a more thoughtful and strategic approach. Has there will be plenty of supporters of Britain’s strong he had a chance to read the Public Administration and independent nuclear deterrent in the next Parliament. Committee’s report “Who does UK National Strategy?”, in which the outgoing Chief of the Defence Staff Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): commented that the UK had Given that the Prime Minister, in his previous answer, “lost an institutionalised capacity for, and culture of, strategic cast doubt on the Labour party’s commitment to Trident, thought”? and given that we know that his coalition partners are Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need a more against it, may I return to the question he was just co-ordinated approach to strategic thinking across asked? Why is he afraid to put this to a vote before Whitehall, and will he adopt the report’s recommendations? 2015?

The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. The Prime Minister: I really think that I have answered Friend. That was one of the reasons why yesterday we the question. The military advice is that 2016 is when published the national security strategy separately—so we need to go through the main gate. We are going that people could see that the defence review flows from through the initial gate this year. We now have the strategic thinking about Britain’s place in the world, Backbench Business Committee, so if anybody wants about the threats we face and about how we can bring to hold a vote in this Parliament, they can do so, to all of the Government together to try to deal with that. check that we are going through the initial gate, which The National Security Council and the national security we are steaming through this year. I question the adviser, Peter Ricketts—I pay tribute to him and his Opposition’s position, because the leader of the party team for their work—are working well at bringing the said throughout the leadership election: Government together to interrogate the experts and “I have been clear…I believe the right approach is to include really think about what our strategy should be and what the decision about the replacement of Trident in the…defence that means for the decisions we have to take. That is review”. much better than a two-way battle between the Ministry He is therefore not automatically committed to the full of Defence and the Treasury. replacement of Trident, so perhaps the hon. Lady ought to have a word with him and put him right on that. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister says that savings can be made in Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I welcome this Parliament by delaying Trident, but can he say what the decision that we will build the new carriers. Can the the increased cost overall to the deterrent programme Prime Minister confirm that Portsmouth will be their will be of this delay and how this needless risk and home and that the Navy can meet its commitments with uncertainty are showing leadership in the long-term a surface fleet of 19? interests of the country? The Prime Minister: I can say yes to both those The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman questions, particularly the second, which is: do we have has a strong constituency interest in this matter. I can the naval assets to meet the tasks of tackling piracy, tell him that overall the cost will be lower—this was a combating drug running, maintaining patrols and suchlike? value-for-money exercise. We are driving costs out of Yes, we do have that capability, and it is extremely the programme, and overall we believe that it will be less important that that should be on the record. expensive. Further good news is that the Astute class submarines are going ahead. Obviously he will have a Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The tortured time ahead as he considers the fact that this Prime Minister announced a reduction of 7,000 to the Prime Minister and Government support the Trident Army. Will he give the House an assurance that this will replacement when his own party is going a bit soft on it. not include front-line infantry units such as the Royal Irish Regiment, which is currently deployed in Afghanistan? Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My right Secondly, I welcome the establishment of the review of hon. Friend has it in his power to secure the future of the reserve forces and the appointment of our hon. the nuclear deterrent until 2055 by holding the vital Friend the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). vote and making the main gate contract decisions in Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that the this Parliament, not the next one. He could do that at review will seek to expand the role of the reserve forces no extra cost, even if he wishes to delay the introduction in support of our regular forces? Finally, will he ensure 813 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 814 Review Review that the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the The Prime Minister: Our proposals are within the special forces deployed there receive the support that spirit and the letter of the non-proliferation treaty. they need to deal with the threat from dissident republicans? Also, I did not necessarily come to the House today to try to make the hon. Gentleman happy, but I did The Prime Minister: That was very ingenious: the announce that we would be reducing the number of right hon. Gentleman managed to get round your restriction warheads on each submarine from 48 to 40, and our on questions, Mr Speaker, and I think managed to get operationally available warheads from fewer than 160 to in at least three. As for regiments, I can confirm that no no more than 120, which is all contained on page 38 of infantry regiments will be abolished or scrapped as a this excellent document today, which I commend to result of the review. The reduction in the Army numbers him. will be achieved by reducing the number of headquarters, particularly the divisional and regional headquarters. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The There may be some impact on logistics and artillery, but communities of Wootton Bassett and Calne, as well as no infantry battalions will be altered. that of Lyneham itself, will deeply regret the loss of the On the reserves, I was personally keen that we should RAF from my constituency to that of the Prime Minister. look widely at what other countries are doing on the Will he accept that those communities are absolutely balance between regular and reserve forces, and ensure ready to accept soldiers into the vacated base, and that that our reserve forces are properly equipped for the the base itself, which will be vacant by the end of next sort of modern wars that we have to fight and the year and is close to Salisbury plain, is ideally suited to modern services that they have to undertake. I do not brigades returning from Germany? think that we have done that work yet, which is why I have taken it out of the defence review and said that we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has stood up for should have a proper, separate look. Lyneham with vigour and tenacity for many years, and On Northern Ireland, I can give the right hon. Gentleman I commend him for that. This is a good opportunity to the assurance that the last Government gave a number put on record the respect that everyone in this House of commitments on the devolution of policing and and in the country has for the people of Wootton justice, and the funding that this required, and we will Bassett for what they have done. I am in the embarrassing continue with those. We have had a discussion in the position of having in my constituency the premier RAF National Security Council about these issues and how base, Brize Norton, which, I am afraid, does not particularly we best tackle the threat from dissident republicans. I suffer from the announcements made today. My hon. can give the right hon. Gentleman my word that we will Friend has made a good suggestion for the future of continue to give the issue our highest attention, and he Lyneham, and I am sure that he can pursue it with the will have noticed in the national security strategy that Ministry of Defence. we have put it down as one of the highest priorities for our country, which is right. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): There are Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I welcome human costs attached to the 42,000 job losses across the the Prime Minister’s statement that there will be no Ministry of Defence and the military that have been shrinkage in Britain’s role on the world stage. The Royal announced today. Can we have an assurance that those Navy has fulfilled a number of deployments around the people who are losing their jobs in the Ministry, the civil globe for many decades. Can he reassure me that with service, the military and the defence industry will be the reduction in the number of frigates, there will be no given help and support to relocate, and that their housing reduction in the number of the Royal Navy’s commitments? needs will be addressed, given the housing cuts that have been announced in the past few days? Can we have The Prime Minister: The Royal Navy has said that it an assurance that the people who have served and is able to undertake its task with this lay down of offered their lives for this country are not going to be frigates and destroyers. We obviously have the new discarded? Type 45 destroyers coming into service, which are costing something like £1 billion each, and we will have the less The Prime Minister: I can absolutely give the hon. expensive, more flexible future frigates coming forward Lady that assurance. We want to ensure that as many of as well. I genuinely mean this point about no strategic the job losses as possible are found through voluntary shrinkage. We are having to take some difficult decisions, redundancy and retirement, rather than through making but when we think about how much time we spend in people redundant. I can also confirm what has been this House talking about natural disasters the world said before, which is that we will obviously not be over, and about our role in trying to tackle them, one making anyone redundant who is in Afghanistan or argument that we need to develop is about how the whose units are in Afghanistan. That will not be happening; money that we spend through our aid budget plays a that is extremely important. key role in ensuring that there is no strategic shrinkage. In terms of the industrial base, of course there will be Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The nuclear impacts—for instance, with the decision on Nimrod—but non-proliferation treaty commits this country to long-term if we look across British industry as a whole, and at the nuclear disarmament and to take steps to achieve that. decisions on shipbuilding, on the A400M and on the The Prime Minister has just announced the replacement joint strike fighter among many others, we can see that of the Trident nuclear system at some point in the there is a strong future for defence manufacturing in future. Is this not illegal under the terms of that treaty, our country. and how much money will it cost us to develop another Let me just put on record how much we should value generation of weapons of mass destruction, when what the MOD’s civilians and how hard they work, because I we need is peace and a nuclear-free world? know that they sometimes feel undervalued. I was at the 815 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 816 Review Review [The Prime Minister] The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend, who has served in Afghanistan and has expertise in bomb disposal—we Permanent Joint Headquarters today and saw many should pay credit to him for that—makes a good point. civilians working alongside their military counterparts The whole point of taking the reserves out of the review to co-ordinate our efforts in Afghanistan; they were and of having a separate, longer and more thoughtful doing a fantastic job. It is right that we reduce the look is precisely to answer the sort of question that he number of civilians in the MOD—it has got too big—but puts. When it comes to what is called “hot stabilisation”, we need to ensure that we do it in as sensitive a way as I think it is right to try to develop units where we bring possible. the military and civilians together. Then, in that vital golden hour when we have gone into a community, we Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I thank my can start to get things done so that the population is on right hon. Friend for the honour that he has done me in our side rather than against us. If we are to have more putting me on to the commission. I also find it deeply of what have been called “wars among the people”, we humbling that five parliamentary colleagues have been must make sure that we are properly equipped to deal among the 27,000 men and women who have served in with them. Afghanistan and Iraq as reservists over the past eight years. I welcome this wide-ranging study, and my right Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I have hon. Friend made it clear that it goes across all three always supported the case for greater conflict prevention, services and will look at the balance between regulars but conflict prevention needs to be understood and and reserves. Has he thought about who else he might practised by the military themselves. How will the Prime put on to the commission? Minister guarantee the continuing and proper focus of the Department for International Development on women, children and achieving the millennium development The Prime Minister: First, I thank my hon. Friend for goals if a third of its budget should be reallocated to taking part in this. I want the Vice-Chief of the Defence conflict prevention, which is something quite different? Staff, General Nick Houghton, to lead it, and I think that my hon. Friend should be the deputy. General The Prime Minister: I would say that conflict affects Lamb, who has served our country outstandingly in women and children and that broken states have the Iraq and Afghanistan and was taken on personally by worst records on poverty and development. Far be it for the Americans in Afghanistan because of the great me to recommend a reading list to the right hon. Lady, work he has done, has also agreed to serve. My but Paul Collier’s work on the bottom billion and Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the broken states backs up the case for how we should use Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne) is one of the our DFID budget—yes, for meeting the millennium many people in the House who has served in the reserve development goals; yes, for vaccination and malaria forces, but I am afraid that he will not be free to do this. reduction and all those extremely worthwhile things; I once suffered a capability gap when he went to Iraq but I think we are mad if we do not put money into during the last Parliament in the rather hard-to-explain mending broken states, where so many of the problems role of liaising with the Italian forces—something I of poverty arise. know everyone thinks he is uniquely qualified to do. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): At Warton and Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Given Samlesbury, we have a world-class work force building that a nuclear attack on the UK by another state was world-class aircraft, but I need the Government to judged by yesterday’s national security strategy to be of commit and get behind BAE Systems to ensure that “low likelihood” and in the light of the formal exclusion those aircraft succeed in a highly competitive world of Trident from the strategic defence and security review, market. will the Prime Minister use the delay in the Trident main gate decision to allow a full public review of the The Prime Minister: I strongly support our defence necessity of nuclear weapons? industrial base, which is one of our great industries and a great export earner for our country. We should support it. However, when we were looking at how to make this The Prime Minister: I think that there will be a very difficult budgetary situation work, I checked the continuing debate in this country about nuclear deterrence. figures and found that between 2011 and 2015, we will I have been through the arguments in my own mind a be spending £17 billion with BAE Systems. We are an thousand times, and I always come up with the same enormous customer for it. Just as it behoves us as a answer, which is that, in an uncertain, unsafe and dangerous Government to spend responsibly and think of our world, with countries like Iran trying to get a nuclear industrial base, so it must ensure that we get value for weapon, it would be a profound mistake for Britain to money for the very many millions we spend. discard her nuclear weapon. But this debate can always take place in this House. I think that my party has a Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): very settled view on it, and the White Paper safeguards I find it passing strange that the Prime Minister made that, but it is for others to make up their own minds. no reference in his statement to the defence training academy at St Athan and then failed to answer a direct Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): I and simple question from my right hon. Friend the remind the House of my interest. Will the Government Leader of the Opposition. Has the Prime Minister not match their commitment to conflict prevention with an been told that the academy is cost effective, delivers expansion of the stabilisation unit and greater use of savings and will improve the quality of training for our our specialist reserves in a military stabilisation and armed services? He talks about professionalism and support group? flexibility, so how does it make sense to axe it? 817 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 818 Review Review The Prime Minister: This is what the defence review The Prime Minister: Of course all those things, and was all about—asking some of these difficult questions. many other things, were Labour policy. That is the The conclusion on St Athan was that the current private problem. There was no prioritisation, and no sign of finance initiative is not right and is not working. That is how any of it was to be paid for. It is the easiest thing in why, although we recognise St Athan as a great base for the world to rack up a defence budget that is £38 billion training—important training takes place there now and overspent, but it is a difficult thing to come in and work much training can take place there in the future—we out what is to be kept and what cannot be kept, and that need another look at ensuring that it is right and is what we have had to do. provides value for money at the same time. That is what As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member is going to happen, and I am sure that the right hon. for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), this is, in some Gentleman, as a former Secretary of State and former ways, the start of a process. The document makes clear First Minister, will want to get involved in that. how many fast jets we expect to have in 2020. We now have to make decisions between the joint strike fighter Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I welcome the and the final tranche of Typhoon. There is extra money Prime Minister’s commitment to fast jets. Will he confirm for unmanned aerial vehicles, and I think that anyone that the final tranche of the Eurofighter will be placed? who has been to Afghanistan and seen the incredible work that is being done there knows that that is a The Prime Minister: We are supporting and, of course, capability in which we should be investing. Let me upgrading Eurofighter because it is important that it repeat, however, that it cannot be invested in unless has a ground attack capability. What this document sets difficult decisions are made elsewhere. We have done out is the total force of Typhoon and joint strike fighter that, and the Labour Government did not. that we anticipate having as part of our 2024 structures. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): The Prime Minister may not be aware that my son is serving in Mr Speaker: Order. These are hugely important matters, 40 Commando Royal Marines, and has just returned and I should like to accommodate some more colleagues, from duty. He tells me that when he asked the RAF for but greater brevity is now vital. a helicopter to take his men into the field, he was told, “We do not fly in the day because we are being shot at.” Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): One of Will the Prime Minister have the matter investigated? the fundamental problems of the last eight to 10 years has been the split between foreign policy and defence. The Prime Minister: Certainly. I do not think that it Will the Prime Minister please tell us what steps are would be right to exchange operational points across being taken to ensure that not just the National Security the Floor of the House of Commons, but I shall be Council, but the Joint Intelligence Committee and the happy to look into the case that the hon. Gentleman Foreign Office, really drive us to have the right resources has raised. and the right priorities?

Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) The Prime Minister: I am going to sound a bit like a (Con): I thank the Prime Minister for his commitment stuck record on the National Security Council, but it is to the aircraft carriers—I am very grateful for that—but really has struck me over the last few months that when is he in a position to confirm that Plymouth Devonport it comes to issues such as how we respond to the in my constituency will continue to play a major role in Pakistan floods, what we do to help Haiti, how we go the defence of our country, and will remain a premier through the defence review and what is the future of our naval port? development programme, the fact that the Foreign Secretary, the Secretary of State for International Development, The Prime Minister: I can absolutely confirm that. the Business Secretary and the Secretary of State for The decisions that we make through this process will Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are all sitting clearly have impacts on Portsmouth and on Plymouth around the table discussing the issues means that decisions Devonport, and we shall have to work through those are not being made in silos. Much of what the Ministry because of the different lay-down of ships and forces. of Defence does has a huge impact on our foreign However, I can confirm my belief that fundamentally, policy. Our fleet of frigates is hugely influential in for the long term, this is good news for both Plymouth building relationships the world over. I think that the and Portsmouth. fact that we are all working together much more positively than has been the case in the past solves the problem to Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): which my hon. Friend has alluded. Thousands of aerospace workers across Lancashire, including hundreds in my constituency who work at Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): BAE Warton and Samlesbury, will want to know the Can the Prime Minister tell us whether Rosyth dockyard’s practical implications of these warm words about a frigate refit orders between now and 2013 will go ahead? Typhoon fleet, the joint strike fighter and a growing If I understand the document correctly, he has put back fleet of unmanned air vehicles. Incidentally, all those the Queen Elizabeth’s entry date, and we note that there were previously Labour Government policy. As the is no entry date for the Prince of Wales. What does that Prime Minister has already given us an ambiguous mean for the work force at Rosyth and elsewhere? Will answer on the issue of Eurofighter Typhoon, will he we simply see a continuation of the policies of the right now give us a more substantive answer on whether he hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm will support research and development and investment Rifkind), and the destruction of the Scottish shipbuilding in Taranis? industry? 819 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 820 Review Review The Prime Minister: Given that the Government are The Prime Minister: The contract is not working. The going ahead with building both carriers, I think that work for which contracts have already been met will that is not exactly gratitude. continue to completion, but new contracts will not be The Queen Elizabeth is not being “put back” in terms started. Turning to the future, we continue to believe of its manufacture. Once it has been manufactured, we that technical training co-located on as few sites as will fit the “cats and traps”—the catapults and arrester possible is the best solution for our armed forces. St Athan gear—to the operational carrier, so that it can then was previously chosen as the best location at which to work with the carrier version of the joint strike fighter, co-locate that training, and it was chosen for very good which is a better aircraft than the one that the last reasons. Those good reasons remain. That is why I have Government ordered. That will make it fully interoperable said that this is not the end of the road for St Athan, with our closest allies, the Americans and the French. and we can work hard to try to find a good solution for So there is not a delay in the production of the carriers, the future. as the hon. Gentleman says. Some extra equipment needs to be added. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I have noted time and again in the past that brave new talk of Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): The co-operation with the French has dribbled into the Prime Minister will be aware that his words of support sands partly because of British Aerospace’s understandable for Plymouth naval base will be extremely well received preference for commercial relationships in the United in the west country this evening, but can he say a few States. Will the Prime Minister explain how he will drive more words about the Royal Marines? Does he agree this process forward personally with President Sarkozy, that they will have a glorious future in serving our because we are the only two nations in Europe that can country and its defence as well as a glorious past? propel our power, and we will either swim together or sink separately? The Prime Minister: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. The Royal Marines have done The Prime Minister: I am delighted that someone fantastic work for our country over recent years, not with such impeccable Eurosceptic credentials shares my least in Afghanistan. I know how loved they are, not view that this is a really worthwhile thing for our just in the south-west but across the country. There will country to do. Let me explain what has changed: first, not be a reduction in their capabilities but clearly, just President Sarkozy is extremely keen on this defence as with the Army, there will be some regard to ensuring relationship; secondly, he has put France straight into that there are not issues of top-heaviness, if I can put it the heart of NATO; and thirdly, we both face the same that way. The Royal Marines are here to stay. They do a pressures. We both have full-service armed forces: we fantastic job and will go on doing so—so much so that I both have very effective navies and air forces, and have actually employed one as a private secretary. troops that really can make an impact on the ground. Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab): The Prime Minister has We both want to maintain and enhance those capabilities mentioned a reduction in service numbers. Can he give and I believe that, together, there is a huge number of us his assurance that that will not involve the use of things we can do. I am working on a programme with manning control points as a cheap alternative to proper President Sarkozy—I have already discussed it with redundancy payments? him—in advance of our summit that will take place soon, and I hope my hon. Friend will be pleased with The Prime Minister: Yes. the results that I think we will be able to deliver.

Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): The national Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and security strategy yesterday and the Prime Minister today Lesmahagow) (Lab): Can the Prime Minister confirm both emphasised cyber-threats and communication. The that the 2010 GDP pledge does not include the cost of Prime Minister will be aware that there is tri-service Afghanistan? training in communication and information systems at the defence college at Blandford in my constituency. The Prime Minister: On the NATO figures, what I The 3,000 people who depend on that for their jobs will can confirm is that in terms of the NATO definition of welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement this what 2% should include, we are comfortably ahead of morning on the Metrix decision, but can the Prime that 2%. Obviously, it does include current military Minister assure me that defence training decisions will operations and other military expenditure. It is all set be focused on centres of excellence such as Blandford, out. If the hon. Gentleman likes, I can give him all the and not on political considerations? figures I have seen, because there are quite a lot of The Prime Minister: Yes, all these decisions should be competing figures for who spends what. Fundamentally based on proper military logic—what is right for the however, in terms of GDP we are the third highest in armed forces—and that is what we want to do. NATO. The Americans are first; the Greeks are second, for some historical reasons that I am sure the hon. Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): May I ask the Prime Gentleman will understand; and the UK is third, ahead Minister about the important issue of the defence training of France and the others. college at St Athan? As he knows, there will be profound disappointment in both the military and south Wales Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May I welcome generally at the cancellation or postponement—I cannot the Prime Minister’s considered statement and, in particular, tell from the statement which it is. He has referred his important reference to cyber-security? Does he agree several times today to the PFI deal as somehow not that if cyber-security is to be effective, there needs to be being right. What is wrong with it exactly, because we a real working partnership with the private sector, understood it to be providing good value for money? particularly as regards critical national infrastructure? 821 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 822 Review Review The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I right. This is not about some great big Government welcome the statement, but does the Prime Minister organisation spending lots of money on cyber; there agree that one of the problems with delaying decisions has to be engagement with private sector organisations over the years is that one ends up with a military that have the expertise. As hon. Gentlemen on both strategy that does not meet modern threats? Does he sides of the House will know, when the Government agree that, for the future, it is vital to have a flexible, come up with a new programme and some new spending, adaptive strategy that means that we are up to date with everyone suddenly becomes in favour of extra cyber-things. modern technologies, whether they are action in cyberspace, We have to make sure that the money is well spent and unmanned aerial vehicles, or other technologies? well targeted, and that we use experience from the private sector. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. One of the reasons for having more regular defence reviews is Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): so that we force ourselves to ask these difficult questions Perhaps the Prime Minister would listen to me. Will he more often. Where one can sometimes bring forward a answer a simple question? He refers to more flexible, programme that has been delayed, one should. That is modern frigates being less expensive. I know that he what we are doing with the A400M because, frankly, we would not want to put our sailors at any risk, and that need to replace the ageing transport fleet, and the those ships will therefore have the same, if not better, sooner we do it, the better. defensive capabilities. Will he describe what this modern, cheaper frigate looks like? Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): In his statement, the Prime Minister made quite clear his support for The Prime Minister: They should have a range of Eurofighter Typhoon and the joint strike fighter. Can capabilities. The point that I would make to the hon. he tell the House how many fighters of the tranche 3B type Gentleman is that if we look at the Type 45 destroyers, he will be ordering, and whether he will be ordering the which are extremely capable, they are costing £1 billion joint strike fighter for the new aircraft carriers? each. When one looks at the tasks that we want our Royal Navy to perform in the future, which include The Prime Minister: We aim to have 110 Typhoons by combating piracy and drug running, and undertaking 2020—the figures are all set out in the document—but other patrol duties, there is a case for saying that the clearly the balance between the two is something that future frigate programme should be less expensive and we have to make decisions about. I think that one can more flexible. That is what the commissioning process see the general thrust, which is that we will be based will try to deliver. around two fast jet types, the Typhoon and the joint strike fighter. I am sure that that is the right strategy. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): As a former soldier, may I thank the Prime Minister for the close Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): My constituency of personal interest that he has taken in making sure that Devizes is home to more than 10,000 soldiers, plus a the review came out in the way that it did? Does he huge number of families and MOD civil servants, many agree that it will only be possible to rebalance our force of whom will welcome some of the uncertainty that has structures within this sort of spending envelope if we been removed by the Prime Minister’s statement today get to grips with the disastrous procurement process but who will have great concerns about the detail underlying that we inherited, and will he confirm— it—about the boarding school allowances, the Army recovery centre at Tidworth and so on. When will they Mr Speaker: Order. One question is quite enough. finally get information about what will stay and what will be cut? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: procurement is extremely difficult, but we have The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very absolutely got to do better. One of the decisions that my good point. We have not yet announced the full range right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has of allowance changes. This is important—we are seeking made is to get Peter Levene back into the Ministry of some savings, and I do not hide from hon. Members the Defence to look at some of those issues. It is vital that fact that this will involve some difficult decisions. There we try to improve on the record that we have inherited. is one bit of reassurance—the Army is coming back from Germany, which involves 20,000 troops. I think Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) that we spend something like £250 million a year on (SNP): Two years ago, when jobs were threatened at the allowances for those troops in Germany. Obviously, QinetiQ Hebrides range—that is where Type 45s, among having them back at home will change the cost structure other defence assets, exercise—the current Defence Secretary and enable us to change some of the allowances, but we and Armed Forces Minister joined me and the Hebrides will be making further announcements. range taskforce in forcing the then Labour Government into a U-turn. Will the Prime Minister join them in their Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): support of the Hebrides range by valuing its work? May I unequivocally welcome the announcement on the aircraft carriers? It took long enough. However, The Prime Minister: We have not made decisions may I clarify whether the provision of the catapults and about that yet, but what I can say is that the hon. the rest of the gear will delay in any way the production Gentleman can see the overall lay-down that we have set of the carriers and have any job implications and whether out, in terms of the Type 45s, the frigates that we will it is intended that the Type 26 work will proceed to the retain and the future frigate programme. already announced timetable? 823 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 824 Review Review The Prime Minister: The answer to the second half of from decisions made elsewhere in the defence budget. the hon. Gentleman’s question is yes. On the carriers, it As I said in my statement—I wanted to get this in—any will not delay their manufacture and production. What time the chiefs of staff said that a decision could impact it means is that as the first is produced, the most logical on Afghanistan either now or in the future, such as the step would be to fit the “cat and trap” to that carrier, decision on whether to go ahead with the Puma refit, I which will therefore come fully into service when the took the decision that we should go ahead with it to carrier version of the joint strike fighter arrives at the ensure that there is no danger of any shortfalls in same time. We will have solved one of the inherited equipment. That should be our first concern. They are problems of bringing the two things together. Clearly, on the line for us every day, and I never forget that. an alternative would be to fit the “cat and trap” to the second carrier, but the most logical way ahead is the one Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): May I say how that I have set out. much I agree with the Prime Minister, particularly on the occasions at the conference in Manchester on which Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): My constituents he said that he was committed to the defence training and I—and, it seems, many other Members in the academy, and with his hon. Friend the Member for Vale Chamber—are naturally disappointed that the Metrix of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), who said it had to be won proposal for St Athan will not go ahead. Will the Prime because it was the right military thing to do? However, I Minister confirm that St Athan remains central to am still not clear, and perhaps the Prime Minister could defence training and will he make available some of his answer me on this point. Is there are future for the officials to provide a detailed breakdown of why Metrix defence training academy at St Athan, whether it is run was not suitable? by Metrix or anybody else? The Prime Minister: I am very happy to do that. I The Prime Minister: Fundamentally, yes, there is a know how strongly people feel about this in south future for defence training at St Athan, as I have said. Wales and I know how important this decision is, so I We need to make sure that more is done on a tri-service am happy to make officials and Ministers available to basis and that more is concentrated in fewer places. meet my hon. Friend to explain the thinking. As I have St Athan is uniquely well qualified for that but the said, this is not the end of the road for St Athan. There current private finance initiative was not working—the are many opportunities to concentrate training at that MOD could not get it to work in the way that it excellent resource and so, I think, he can continue to wanted—so we have to start again. This is not the end fight hard for his constituents. of the road.

Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Lord Robertson’s Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Cyber- strategic defence review was so well regarded internationally security is a relatively new threat. Are we lagging behind that he was made Secretary-General of NATO and his other countries? thinking shaped NATO’s strategy for a decade. Next month, the Prime Minister goes to the NATO summit The Prime Minister: With the announcements that in Lisbon to agree the new strategic concept. All four of we have made in the national security strategy and his priorities are already in the concept. What is new today, I do not think that we will be lagging behind. We enough and strategic enough for this defence review to have considerable expertise both in our private sector shape NATO’s policy over the next decade? and with GCHQ, and this is an opportunity to build some competitive advantage. The Prime Minister: There are a number of things Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): This is that are new. The emphasis on a national security financial, not strategic. The defence academy in south strategy in the round is new. The emphasis on cyber is Wales has been cancelled, the Royal Navy will be without new. The fact that we have prioritised national security carriers for the first time since world war two— tasks is quite high risk, frankly. If things happen that [Interruption.] There will be an eight-year gap. Does are in priority two or three, people will clearly be able to this herald the end of “Britannia rules the waves” and say that that should have been priority one. We have the start of “Cameron waves the rules”? taken some risks with this process. I would also say that the force structure and the equipment going with the The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. forces—making them more adaptable and flexible—is Gentleman’s break from Parliament did not do anything something, too. I expect other NATO countries will for his temper or his nature. He is completely wrong. We have to go through this process of making changes to have to get these decisions right for the long term and, their defence posture at the same time as trying to deal as I have tried to explain, a politically easier decision with their deficits. would have been a militarily wrong decision. That is a good way to start. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Despite the futility of the Afghanistan war, our troops deserve Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Last week, the greatest support. In part, they have suffered from a the Public Accounts Committee heard from Sir Bill lack of equipment and numbers. Can the Prime Minister Jeffrey, who said that the lack of a strategic review over guarantee that this review will not only ensure that the last couple of years had made the situation in the there are no cuts in support but that there is increased defence budget more difficult. I welcome the Prime support, should our troops require it in the future? Minister’s assurance that there will be a strategic defence review every five years, but what can he do to entrench The Prime Minister: Yes, absolutely.As I say, Afghanistan that and to ensure that the shambolic position of there is funded through the Treasury reserve but we cannot having been no review for 12 years never happens entirely insulate what happens in funding for Afghanistan again? 825 Strategic Defence and Security 19 OCTOBER 2010 826 Review The Prime Minister: I hope that it can become accepted Points of Order between all parties in the House that we have five-yearly reviews. There is a provision for similar reviews in America. Given all the things that have happened since 5.3 pm 1998—Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone and Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, 9/11—I think that future generations will find it very Mr Speaker. I wish to raise what happened last night hard to understand why there has been no defence regarding amendment 3 to the Parliamentary Voting review. System and Constituencies Bill. Many people judged what happened to be a breach of the underlying conventions Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): of the House—the spirit of the rules—irrespective of Earlier, the Prime Minister sounded the death knell for the precision that could be applied to the Standing Kinloss as an RAF station, but he did not respond to Orders themselves. We saw the cynical adoption of the question about Lossiemouth. Will he tell the House amendments with which the coalition Government clearly and the people of Scotland, all of whom are interested disagree merely to induce a negative vote. No opportunity in this, what the future is for Lossiemouth and for RAF was given for my amendments or those of other hon. recruitment in Scotland? Members to be debated or voted on in Committee. The threshold amendments are about percentages and The Prime Minister: I said that we are going to look proportionality, as is the principle of the Bill itself. I at all the bases and see clearly what impact there is on urge you to protect the underlying fundamental conventions Kinloss and Lossiemouth from the announcements about of the House and the spirit of the rules on this matter what the RAF’s lay-down is going to be. Clearly, there on Report. will be opportunities as British forces come home from Germany, so we will look at all bases and see what can Mr Speaker: Before I respond to the hon. Gentleman, be done. As I said in the statement, it is important that I think the House will want to hear from the Deputy we consult all the communities who have given so much Leader of the House. support to our forces over many years and that we do not rush these things. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Further to Several hon. Members rose— that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am most grateful to you for letting me respond. It was entirely regrettable Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint some that we did not reach what was an important group of colleagues, but I have allowed the statement to run amendments last night. Clearly, the House wanted sufficient rather longer than is customarily the case for statements, time to take a view on the matter, which was why the in recognition of the enormous importance of the issue, Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend but we must make progress. [Interruption.] I could the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), quite never forget the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and properly indicated that he would put the amendment I would not try. before the House to give Members the opportunity to take a view on it. In the end, they decided not to take a view; there was no one in support of the amendment. However, having taken account of yesterday’s events, and given the important matters that we have to debate today, may I draw the House’s attention to the programme motion that we will shortly be taking a view on? It will take away any knives this evening, which means that if we do not complete clause 9 this evening, we will be able to continue discussion tomorrow. That seems to me an entirely appropriate course of action.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Deputy Leader of the House for what he said. I am trying to wrap it up, but of course we must hear from Chris Bryant.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the Deputy Leader of the House is somewhat mistaken in his interpretation of what happened yesterday evening. I think there was a clear desire by many hon. Members not just to debate the particular issue of thresholds but actually to debate clause 6, which has not been debated at all in any shape or form in this House. [Interruption.] The Parliamentary Secretary is saying from a sedentary position that I was wasting time. I profoundly object to the fact that when we choose to scrutinise his legislation, he is calling into question my good faith. The truth of the matter is that the Government did not provide enough time for the debate. In addition, the Deputy Leader of the House last night, when he suggested 827 Points of Order19 OCTOBER 2010 Points of Order 828

[Chris Bryant] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will recall that on 27 July this to me that he was bringing forward this new motion, year, I raised a point of order in the House with regard said that it was because all the rest of the stuff that we to the 20th anniversary of the murder by the IRA of the were going to debate tomorrow was a pile of dross and late Ian Gow, Member of Parliament for the Eastbourne did not need very much analysis. I hope that there will constituency. I asked whether it might be possible for be a process of ensuring that the House of Lords is you, Mr Speaker, to consider a permanent memorial to made fully aware of the fact that today’s programme Ian Gow in this House, and I wonder if today you may motion makes absolutely no difference to whether or be in a position to update us on any progress you may not yesterday we had any opportunity to consider the have made in that respect. three clauses and three schedules that were before the House. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Mr Speaker: I certainly cannot go into all of that. his point of order and, thankfully, I am in a position to Suffice it to say that I think the point that the hon. update the House. The hon. Gentleman came to see me Gentleman has just made constitutes a self-fulfilling about this matter last week, together with the noble prophecy; in so far as he is concerned that the other Lord Howe of Aberavon, in order to underline their place should be aware of his interpretation of last strength of feeling on the subject and to articulate the night’s events, he has made it aware of his interpretation request for some such memorial. I undertook on that by what he has just said. It is on the record and I am occasion to the hon. Gentleman and to the noble Lord sure it will be studied carefully there and elsewhere. to seek to ensure that the matter was placed on the agenda for the immediately following meeting of the I am grateful to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr House of Commons Commission. I put it on the agenda, Cash) for giving me notice of his point of order. It is not and I had the benefit of a detailed letter from the noble for me to rule on what has happened in Committee of Lord. the Whole House. On the wider issue he raises, it is not unprecedented—the hon. Gentleman has been a Member The matter was considered at the House of Commons of the House since 1984, so he will testify to the truth of Commission meeting last night, and I am pleased to this—for a Minister to move a Back-Bench amendment, advise the House that the Commission decided unanimously even if he or she does not wish to vote for it. As the First that there should be a permanent memorial to the late Deputy Chairman said last night: Ian Gow, and that that would likely take the form of a “What the Government propose is orderly under Standing plaque. That plaque would be put up in the Chamber of Order No. 83D(2)”—[Official Report, 18 October 2010; Vol. 516, the House of Commons, similar to the plaque that has c. 767.], been long established in recognition of the distinction although it is, as some hon. Members have observed— and terrible fate of the late Airey Neave. including, today, the hon. Gentleman—somewhat unusual. I can also inform the House that the detailed discussions I am sure that hon. Members will also have noted the about what will now happen and the form that the opportunities open to them, as has been remarked, on plaque will take will get under way very speedily. I hope Report. Members present will certainly have noted what that Members in all parts of the House will recognise the Deputy Leader of the House has just said. the merit of the case for such a plaque, which I know I hope that is helpful; I am not keen to take, and will be greatly appreciated by members of Ian Gow’s indeed I am keen not to take, further points of order on family and by a great many people besides in all parts of that matter, but I think we have a point of order from the United Kingdom. I hope that is helpful to the Mr. Andrew Rosindell. House. 829 19 OCTOBER 2010 House of Commons Disqualification 830 (Amendment) House of Commons Disqualification The ways of the Whips Office are, by their very nature, (Amendment) secretive. After all, what party would want the public knowing precisely to what lengths a few men and women Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order will go to secure what they arrogantly assume to be the No. 23) best option for the country? Let me give the House just one story, an example of 5.10 pm how the Whips blatantly use disinformation even in the current Session. The disinformation in question concerned Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I beg to the Backbench Business Committee. The Whips sent an move, e-mail to Members claiming that the Committee had That leave be given to bring in a Bill to disqualify for membership decided always to hold its business on a Thursday and of the House of Commons any person who holds the office of to table motions for discussion only a day or so before. Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, Deputy Chief Whip, Government Whip, Assistant Government Whip, Chief Opposition Both those alleged facts were completely incorrect. It Whip or Assistant Opposition Whip; and for connected purposes. was in fact the Whips Office that decided that the debate should be on a Thursday, against the advice of I am introducing the Bill to rebuild trust in politics. the Wright report, and the Committee should have been We have a problem in Parliament. A Bill given earlier days in the parliamentary week, not Thursdays. “gets sent to the House of Commons where it’s debated without It was also entirely untrue to state that the Committee diligence—because automatic guillotines cut time short. It’s passed tabled motions only a day or so before the debate; the without proper scrutiny—because standing committees for Public Bills are stuffed with puppets of the Government. And it’s voted Committee normally provides several weeks’ notice. through without much of a whisper—because MPs have been The purpose of that disinformation was clearly to show whipped to follow the party line. the Committee in a bad light to Members, because it We’ve got to give Parliament its teeth back so that people can will inevitably take power away from the Whips. have pride in it again—so they can look at it and say ‘yes: those It is frankly astonishing to think that, in an age when MPs we elect—they’re holding the government to account on my employees have more rights than ever before, and workplace behalf.’” bullying has thankfully become increasingly unacceptable, Those are not my words, but the words of my right Members are still treated in such a manner. If I were to hon. Friend the Prime Minister. One may even say that treat my staff in that way, even for an instant, I would his words are uttered in the same spirit as those of quite rightly be taken to an employment tribunal and Edmund Burke, the great Conservative thinker, who in sued faster than you can say, “Your career is over.” Yet, 1774 said of the perfect Member of Parliament that it is through those unsavoury and often underhand “his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened methods that the Whips use to ensure that the party line conscience, he ought not to sacrifice...toanysetofmenliving.” is strictly obeyed. The public are therefore denied That is what we as Members of Parliament should do, independent-minded Members and, indeed, the Parliament and what Parliament itself was set up to do. We should that they deserve. be acting on behalf of our constituents and, using our What is more frustrating is that the individual members “’unbiased opinion”and “mature judgment”, scrutinising of the Whips Office are often very talented Members every piece of legislation that comes our way to hold the who would be better employed helping to run a Department Government properly to account, regardless of party or seated on the Back Benches holding the Government politics. But Burke could surely not have foreseen how to account, rather than wasting their time as Whips. In difficult it is today for a Member of Parliament to live my experience, Whips are extremely hard working and up to his ideal. Sadly, all too many of us do indeed carry out their functions, including their pastoral care, succumb to pressure from a very particular “set of men with great diligence. Nor am I saying that they have not living”—that is, the flatterers, cajolers and sometime in the past usefully performed certain functions to bullies who make up our party Whips. ensure the smooth running of the House, such as Parliament was originally intended to act as a check communicating Back-Benchers’ views to the leadership on the Executive and to hold it to account, yet with the and vice versa, and organising House business. Yet, advent of the party and such concepts as party loyalty with the admirable and long-awaited changes to Parliament and party manifestos, Members of Parliament have put which our new Government have already enacted, such their individual judgment to one side increasingly frequently as setting up the Backbench Business Committee and and, more often than not, are treated by the Whips as the soon-to-be-created business of the House committee, little more than sheep. In fact, the Whips even divide business could be organised perfectly well without the Members into groups which they call flocks. These Whips and the usual channels. flocks are then blindly herded into Division Lobbies Although my Bill would abolish the position of Whip, and told to vote a particular way on a subject that they it would not abolish the Whips Office, an entity already know nothing about. Many Members of Parliament run by civil servants and which would continue to deal today go through the Lobby not even knowing what with day-to-day House administration. As for the channels part of the Bill they are voting on. of communication between the leadership and Back Such behaviour is an insult to our constituents and to Benchers, in each party there are vocal Back-Bench British democracy. It was particularly bad under the groups, such as my party’s 1922 committee, which perform last Labour Government, when the Whips, working in such a function admirably and efficiently. secret, skilfully used flattery, enticement, patronage, The position of Whip could be made redundant threats and downright bullying to get Members of easily. The only role left for Whips to perform is that of Parliament to ignore their better judgment and, in strong-arming Members and ensuring a less democratic many cases, the opinions of their constituents, and vote and efficient Parliament as a result. The public are in whichever way the former Prime Minister wanted. clearly crying out for a change in the way that Parliament 831 House of Commons Disqualification 19 OCTOBER 2010 House of Commons Disqualification 832 (Amendment) (Amendment) [Mr Peter Bone] delivery of pastoral care. In my case, that has resulted in my full return to health and a full recovery. I hasten to operates. They want a less powerful and overbearing add that I do not want to overdo it—it was not just the Executive, and Members who are able to represent their Whips Office that delivered my speedy return, but the views and use their judgment, not Members who act Whips Office contributed to it, and I must say that I am just as Lobby fodder in order to rubber-stamp the enjoying it hugely. decisions of the Executive, blindly following the party’s It is for those reasons that I oppose the Bill. I am view and not even knowing what Bill they are voting on. aware, however, that there is important business to be This Parliament is moving steadily towards a separation got through this evening, and I will therefore not force of its powers from those of the Executive. My Bill is a the matter to a Division. further step on that progressive journey. In fact, it Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. would benefit not only British democracy but the British Ordered, economy. Following recent events, the public have become increasingly irritated by the scale of expenditure, yet by That Mr Peter Bone, Mr Philip Hollobone, abolishing the Whips’ positions we would save Mr Christopher Chope, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr David approximately £6.5 million per Parliament in ministerial Nuttall and Mr Graham Allen present the Bill. salaries—a quite extraordinary amount. Surely it is only right that alongside the Prime Minister’s plans to Mr Bone: The list would have included my hon. reduce the number of Members of Parliament, we make Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), but he at least some effort to reduce the size of the Government. felt that it might damage his career prospects. I should like to end by quoting the words of a man Mr Peter Bone accordingly presented the Bill. who I know has the best interests of our democracy and Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on our country at heart: Friday 10 December and to be printed (Bill 80). “We will give the House of Commons more control over its own timetable so there is proper time for scrutiny and debate. We PARLIAMENTARY VOTING SYSTEM AND will make MPs more independent, with more free votes so that they can vote as they wish and not as they’re told to.” CONSTITUENCIES BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 3) Those were the words of our new Prime Minister, uttered in 2009 in his powerful speech about rebuilding Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the connection between Parliament and the people. I Order No. 83A(7)), am introducing this Bill to try to help the Prime Minister That the Order of 12 October (Parliamentary Voting System to achieve his aim. and Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 2) be varied as follows: (1) In the Table, for the entry relating to the third and fourth days of Committee there shall be substituted: 5.21 pm Time for conclusion Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): I yield of to no one in my admiration for my hon. Friend the Day Proceedings proceedings Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who has a proven track record of raising thought-provoking questions. Third and fourth Clause 7, Schedule 9.00 pm on the days 6, Clauses 8 to 13, fourth day His speech has raised a thought-provoking question in Schedule 7, Clauses my mind—why he has not given much more weight to 14 to 17 the pastoral care that the Government Whips Office, and indeed the Opposition Whips Office, gives to individual (2) On the third day paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings until 11.00 pm.— Members. (Miss Chloe Smith.) I make this point not because I am a Whips’ nark— although it is for other hon. Members to judge whether The House proceeded to a Division. that is the case—or because I am a member of that formidable trade union, the ex-Whips Office, but rather Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. because in the past six months I have had experience of There is a problem with regard to timing. There is some the personal advice, support and care of Her Majesty’s doubt as to whether eight minutes have elapsed, so the Government’s Whips Office. That has been given to my doors will be unlocked for one further minute. staff and to me; it was necessary after my temporary The House having divided: Ayes 327, Noes 233. leave of absence after the general election. Division No. 84] [5.25 pm I suggest to hon. Members that they view the Whips Office, or the Opposition Whips Office, as being bit like AYES the NHS. We hope that we never need it, but it is very Adams, Nigel Barwell, Gavin good to know that it is there if we do. That has been my Afriyie, Adam Bebb, Guto experience. All of us in this place come into politics Aldous, Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan because we want to serve, and that calling brings with it Alexander, rh Danny Bellingham, Mr Henry its own unique demands. I am not for one second Andrew, Stuart Benyon, Richard suggesting that we are a special case in that sense, but I Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul would suggest that most other jobs have very highly Bagshawe, Ms Louise Berry, Jake developed human resources or personnel departments Baker, Norman Bingham, Andrew that individuals can go to. In this House, we do not have Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian a similar support network—except, that is, for the Whips Baldwin, Harriett Birtwistle, Gordon Office. The House relies on the Whips Office for the Barker, Gregory Blackman, Bob 833 House of Commons Disqualification 19 OCTOBER 2010 House of Commons Disqualification 834 (Amendment) (Amendment) Blackwood, Nicola Foster, Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, Dr John Blunt, Mr Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Boles, Nick Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Randall, rh Mr John Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Reckless, Mark Bottomley, Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Redwood, rh Mr John Bradley, Karen Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Reevell, Simon Brake, Tom Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robathan, Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Brine, Mr Steve Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Brokenshire, James Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Long, Naomi Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Rudd, Amber Browne, Mr Jeremy Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Ruffley, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Russell, Bob Bruce, rh Malcolm Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Rutley, David Buckland, Mr Robert Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Sanders, Mr Adrian Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Sandys, Laura Burns, Conor Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Scott, Mr Lee Burns, Mr Simon Greening, Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Selous, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant Burstow, Paul Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Sharma, Alok Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, Mr Keith Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Cairns, Alun Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Miss Chloe Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Soames, Nicholas Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Stanley, rh Sir John Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Stephenson, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Stevenson, John Collins, Damian Hemming, John Morris, David Stewart, Bob Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Morris, James Stewart, Iain Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Rory Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Streeter, Mr Gary Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Mulholland, Greg Stride, Mel Davey, Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Mundell, rh David Stuart, Mr Graham Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Munt, Tessa Stunell, Andrew (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Murray, Sheryll Sturdy, Julian Davies, Glyn Howarth, Mr Gerald Murrison, Dr Andrew Swales, Ian Davies, Philip Howell, John Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, Simon Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, Mr Hugo de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Dorries, Nadine Huppert, Dr Julian Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Tredinnick, David Duddridge, James James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth Duncan, rh Mr Alan Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ottaway, Richard Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Paice, Mr James Uppal, Paul Durkan, Mark Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Vaizey, Mr Edward Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Vickers, Martin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, Mike Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Walker, Mr Charles Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Percy, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Wallace, Mr Ben Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Walter, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Ward, Mr David Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Watkinson, Angela Fallon, Michael Lancaster, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Weatherley, Mike Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Webb, Steve Field, Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Pritchard, Mark Wharton, James 835 House of Commons Disqualification 19 OCTOBER 2010 House of Commons Disqualification 836 (Amendment) (Amendment) Wheeler, Heather Wilson, Mr Rob Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa White, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Whittaker, Craig Wright, Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Simon Hollobone, Mr Philip Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Willetts, rh Mr David Young, rh Sir George Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Williams, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Roger Illsley, Mr Eric Riordan, Mrs Linda Williams, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Williamson, Gavin Stephen Crabb and James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Willott, Jenny Norman Lamb Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Johnson, Diana R. Roy, Mr Frank NOES Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Abbott, Ms Diane Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Joan Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dakin, Nic Jowell, rh Tessa Sarwar, Anas Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Danczuk, Simon Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Ali, Rushanara David, Mr Wayne Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Anderson, Mr David Davidson, Mr Ian Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Austin, Ian Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz Shepherd, Mr Richard Bailey, Mr Adrian De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Bain, Mr William Denham, rh Mr John Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Balls, rh Ed Dobbin, Jim Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Banks, Gordon Docherty, Thomas Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Beckett, rh Margaret Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela Bell, Sir Stuart Doran, Mr Frank Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian Smith, Owen Benton, Mr Joe Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona Soulsby, Sir Peter Berger, Luciana Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh Mr John Betts, Mr Clive Dugher, Michael Mann, John Stringer, Graham Blackman-Woods, Roberta Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Stuart, Ms Gisela Blenkinsop, Tom Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blomfield, Paul Efford, Clive McCann, Mr Michael Tami, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Thomas, Mr Gareth Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Thornberry, Emily Brennan, Kevin Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Timms, rh Stephen Brown, Lyn Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Derek Bryant, Chris Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Twigg, Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka Burnham, rh Andy Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, Valerie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Walley, Joan Cairns, David Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Gapes, Mike Meale, Mr Alan Weir, Mr Mike Campbell, Mr Gregory Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Wicks, rh Malcolm Cash, Mr William Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Wilson, Sammy Clark, Katy Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Winnick, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wishart, Pete Coffey, Ann Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Wood, Mike Connarty, Michael Greenwood, Lilian (Easington) Woodcock, John Cooper, Rosie Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Cooper, rh Yvette Gwynne, Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Munn, Meg Woolas, Mr Phil Corbyn, Jeremy Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Wright, David Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Mr Fabian Nash, Pamela Wright, Mr Iain Creagh, Mary Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Creasy, Stella Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Tellers for the Noes: Cruddas, Jon Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Stephen Pound and Cryer, John Healey, rh John Paisley, Ian Mr David Hamilton Cunningham, Alex Hendrick, Mark Cunningham, Mr Jim Heyes, David Cunningham, Tony Hillier, Meg Question accordingly agreed to. 837 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 838 Constituencies Bill Parliamentary Voting System and My amendment would put into the Bill the only AV Constituencies Bill system already operating in our country—it operates in London and the rest of England for mayoral elections.

(Clause 7, Schedule 6, Clauses 8 to 13, Schedule 7 and Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Is Clauses 14 to 17) not the hon. Gentleman proposing almost a semi-alternative vote, given that it would be a restriction on the whole [Relevant documents: Third Report from the Political concept of AV? Surely, it is up to electors. If they decide and Constitutional Reform Committee, Parliamentary to list only two members among their favourites, that is Voting System and Constituencies Bill, HC 437, and the their decision. Why does he seek to restrict the choice of oralevidence taken before the Committee on the Coalition voters? It is very uncharacteristic of him. Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform on Thursday 15 July, HC 358-i.] 5.45 pm [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] Further considered in Committee Mr Chope: That is what is done in London at the moment, and in mayoral elections in towns and cities [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] the length and breadth of the country. That system is less satisfactory than the first-past-the-post system. However, Clause 7 it is a lot more satisfactory than the full alternative vote system, which is what is proposed in the Bill at present, THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM: AMENDMENTS because under that system the person who gets the third or fourth highest number of first preferences—or, in 5.40 pm some scenarios, even the fifth highest—might end up Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I beg to being elected, because he has got the second, third, move amendment 62, in clause 7, page 5, leave out fourth, fifth and sixth preferences of other candidates. lines 9 to 11 and insert That leads to a very undesirable system, in which not ‘but no preference beyond the second may be indicated.’. even the person who came first or second past the post It gives me great pleasure to move amendment 62. It is elected, but instead somebody who came much further goes to the heart of what we mean by “the alternative down the running order, all on the basis of the lowest vote system”, because there is more than one AVsystem. common denominator, which is the wrong way to choose I am very much in favour of first past the post, so it is representatives to this House. with a heavy heart that I know that we are about to get into the detail of what we mean by an “alternative Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): vote”. Were my amendment to be carried, it might make The hon. Gentleman is being absolutely straightforward it easier for those who want to secure a yes vote in the in saying that he does not really agree with his own referendum—that is the irony of my amendment—because amendment, but does he agree that it still does not get it will actually make the system much simpler to understand. over the fundamental flaw in all AV systems, which is Effectively, my amendment would provide for the that they effectively give people two votes, and particularly choice of replacing the first-past-the-post system with people who support minority parties such as the British the first-or-second-past-the-post system. In other words, National party? it would not be possible for somebody to be elected unless they had either the first or second largest number Mr Chope: Exactly. I agree with the hon. Gentleman of first preference votes. Under the AVsystem proposed and my amendment attempts to mitigate the terms of in my amendment, candidates who had come third, the Bill, under which some people might have three, fourth, fifth and so on would be eliminated after the four, five or six votes. For example, somebody might put first round and the second preference votes of those the BNP first and the UK Independence party second, who had backed them redistributed. After that and then vote for some other nationalist party or whatever. redistribution, the candidate—either the first or second- All those candidates would never get anywhere near the placed candidate—with the most votes would be elected. top of the poll, thereby making it possible for that So the qualifications for election would be that, first, a person to cast a large number of votes. Thus, some candidate would have to have been one of the first two people will get a large number of votes, whereas others people past the post and secondly, they would have to will not; indeed, they will get only the one vote. One way rely on the second preference votes of those who had of explaining the virtues of the first-past-the-post system backed candidates lower down the batting order in is to say that it is one person, one vote, which is terms of success in the first round. something that everybody understands. Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): If the Committee Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): The hon. were to accept my hon. Friend’s amendment, would it Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) not mean that the candidate with the broader base of made a good point about some people effectively having support among the community he or she was seeking to three, four or five votes. However, is it not the case that serve might not be elected? the meaning of the word “alternative” is “one of two”, Mr Chope: That is a defect of all alternative vote from its true Latin derivation, “alter”? My hon. Friend’s systems. One reason I like the first-past-the-post system amendment is therefore technically and linguistically is that it is clear for people to understand. The most absolutely correct. If the system is to be called the popular candidate wins, and we do not get into this alternative vote system, the sense of “one of two” must business of having to go for the lowest common come into it somewhere, not the sense of “one of four denominator. or five”. 839 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 840 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that I want to draw another analogy. If the alternative point. She and I have not colluded on this, but I took vote system proposed by the Government in the Bill the precaution of looking up the definition of “alternative” were adopted, people would be encouraged to rank the and its usage in the “Shorter Oxford English Dictionary”, number of candidates from one to however many, in which says: order of preference. I think that a lot of our constituents “Some traditionalists maintain”— have difficulty in being sure about the relative merits of I think that she and I are both in that category— one or two candidates, yet we would be expecting them “from an etymological standpoint, that you can only have a to list perhaps nine candidates in order of preference. If maximum of two alternatives (from the Latin alter ‘other (of we tried to rate fast-food outlets in order of preference, two)’) and that uses where there are more than two alternatives we would need not only to work out which one we liked are erroneous.” the most, but to rank Starbucks, McDonald’s, Subway, However, the dictionary then says: Café Nero, KFC, Burger King and Pret A Manger in “Such uses are, however, normal in modern standard English.” order of preference. It is quite complicated for people to More is the pity, but that is the factual situation as rate, say, one as their sixth preference and another as described in the dictionary. However, the sense that I their seventh. Such a voting system would be demanding have described is how those of us who are traditionalists, and result in people having to spend a lot more time in as well as a lot of other people, understand the word the polling booth poring over the information about the “alternative”. Indeed, although I am reluctant ever to candidates. Indeed, they would need to get a lot more criticise a word that he says, earlier on we heard the information before they could exercise an informed Prime Minister use the word “less” when he meant choice. “fewer”. Mr MacNeil: I am not sure about the constituents of Christchurch, but the constituents of Na h-Eileanan an Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Iar certainly have no difficulty in getting beyond the (SNP): The hon. Gentleman is giving us a lecture on the No. 2, even when it comes to fast-food outlets, which we difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar. do not have many of in the Outer Hebrides. However, in a previous general election—in 1992, I think it was—the Inverness seat had four candidates on Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. roughly 25% each. How were those voters allowed any I refer the Committee to the evidence submitted to power or given any alternatives to express their further the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee by preferences, rather than having the winning candidate Professor Patrick Dunleavy in the 14th written submission get only roughly a quarter of the votes? on page 205 in the third report on the Parliamentary Mr Chope: It is exactly the same syndrome as somebody Voting System and Constituencies Bill. In his important who wins the 100 metres in the Olympics by a fraction, paper, he asks what the alternative vote means. Were the despite perhaps coming second or third in the semi-finals. Bill to pass, and were there to be a referendum in which That is the way we operate, and it is something that the question on the alternative vote appeared on the everybody understands. ballot paper, many members of the public would ask precisely that question: what does the alternative vote Mr MacNeil rose— mean? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. That might be Before the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar in people’s minds, or it might not, but the hon. Gentleman (Mr MacNeil) intervenes, may I remind the Committee must come back to his amendment, which covers a that we are not discussing AV versus first past the post? particular version of the system. I would be grateful if We are debating a particular form in this amendment, he would stay focused on that point; it is quite a narrow and we are now drifting away from that a little. Perhaps one. we could come back to it. Mr Chope: It is indeed. Mr Chope: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. The effect of my amendment would be to adopt the system that Professor Dunleavy describes as London Mr MacNeil: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman AV,rather than the three alternatives—classic AV,Australian is talking about an exact parallel. At an election, there is AV and London AV—also set out in his document. The a division of votes, but there is no division of time in a amendment has obviously been selected for debate because race: everyone is striving to achieve the shortest time. Mr Speaker recognised that there is more than one That is different from a division of votes among candidates. system of alternative votes. The system that I am describing can be described as the supplementary vote system, but Mr Chope: Speaking from my personal experience, there is also one known as the Australian system. when I was first lucky enough to get elected to this House in 1983, I got 41.5% of the vote. When I was Mr Knight: Listening to my hon. Friend, I have defeated in 1992, I got more than 45% of the vote. I did reached the conclusion that the strongest argument in not complain about that because all my constituents favour of his amendment is one that he has not yet could understand that the person whom they most advanced—namely, that of consistency. If there is one wanted to be their MP was no longer me. That is what form of AV currently operating in the UK—the one we understand with the first-past-the-post system. As that he describes as London AV—it would make sense soon as we complicate the matter with alternative systems, that any system introduced be identical to that system. we get complexity. In the amendment, I am trying to Have Ministers given him any reason why they propose reduce that complexity and mitigate the problem as a totally different form of AV from the one that is much as possible. currently in force in London? 841 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 842 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Chope: My right hon. Friend makes a good point, Mr Chope: I cannot change my amendment at this and that subject was going to form my peroration. I stage, and I am not sure that an amendment dealing tabled the amendment because I have failed to receive a with AV-plus would have been selected. If the hon. straightforward answer from the Minister about why Gentleman wanted an AV-plus amendment, he could the Government want to go for the particular form of have— AV set out in the Bill, instead of the form that we have already experienced in London and in other elections The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. We are not across the country. discussing AV-plus. Can we get back to the amendment? We have a lot of business to get through over the next two days, so I would be grateful if all hon. Members—in Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): It is not true their interventions as well as their speeches—focused to say that there is only one form of AV operating in their comments on the amendment. this country. There are different forms in different electoral systems. It is not true that there is only the system used 6pm for electing the London Mayor. In London, there is also a list system, and there is a different system, in which Mr Chope: I am most grateful to you, Ms Primarolo, people choose between party lists, in Scotland and for trying to ensure that we stick to the amendment. I elsewhere. am a bit flattered in that my amendment is being debated on its own. The best thing for me to do now is to sit down so that I can listen to what the Minister has Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood to say in response to my question: why is the form of the purpose of my amendment. We are talking about AV set out in the Bill preferable to the other form of alternative vote systems. He is describing alternative AV already available in this country, which has been voting systems, which could embrace proportional experienced in London and in other cities? representation, but they are not covered by the clause or by my amendment. I shall not respond further to his Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I am sorry to disappoint intervention, because I am sure that I would be ruled the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), but I out of order. shall not support his amendment. I disagree with it first and foremost because no provision was made in any Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Would not party’s manifesto for this version of the alternative vote. the hon. Gentleman’s proposal put the voters in London When the Labour party said it wanted a referendum on in a difficult situation? If all this were to go through, the alternative vote system, we certainly meant a full next year, there would be one system of alternative alternative vote system in which people could continue voting for them, but in the mayoral elections the following to express their preference, as long as there was a year, there would be a different one. Is it not the case preference still to be expressed. that there would be two AV systems available to the Originally, the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto had people of London? nothing to do with the alternative vote, but if they had proposed a form of the alternative vote it would have Mr Chope: That would be the case if the Bill remained been, as we saw in their negotiations with the Conservative unamended, if there were a referendum and if the yes and Labour parties after the general election and as was vote in that referendum were successful. That is a lot of commonly understood, that under AV the voter was hypotheticals and I hope that we shall not reach that allowed to express a preference all through the system. ghastly outcome, but it is better to be wise before the The hon. Member for Christchurch might object that event rather than to complain afterwards. In anticipation AV was not in his party’s manifesto in any shape or of the difficulties ahead, including the inconsistency form. That is why I have a slight suspicion that his that would result from having more than one type of amendment is intended more as a wrecking amendment, AV system operating in this country, I believe that there although to be generous I shall suggest it is a probing is a lot to be said for ensuring that any system put amendment. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member forward in a referendum is of the same type as the one for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing)—in rather elegant turquoise, that has already been experienced by many electors. I if I may say so—said that AV gives some people two or hope that the Minister will tell us why we are going for a even three votes. That is not the case. People have one different system from the one that is already operating vote, but are allowed to keep on expressing it as a in London. Up to now, I have heard no justification for preference while the process continues. that decision. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is some scope for confusion Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): My heart among the electorate? If there were six candidates on leapt when I saw “AV variant” on the selection list, the ballot paper, people might feel that they must continue because I though that it might refer to AV-plus. That voting until they have exhausted those six options. A system was recommended by the Jenkins commission in British National party candidate, for example, would the early years of the last Labour Government, and it is probably be nobody’s choice, but electors might feel one that I support. However, the hon. Gentleman is confused and believe that it was necessary for them to now talking about a London variant. I have to say that I vote for such a candidate as their sixth preference. The am always suspicious of anything described as a London British National party candidate might then get their variant. First, it sounds sexual and, secondly, coming sixth vote. from the north, I do not think that there should be any variants for London. If he is talking about choosing Chris Bryant: No, not at all. If the hon. Gentleman variants, will he allow for the inclusion of AV-plus in his read the clauses and schedules carefully, he would see amendment? that they make it absolutely clear what information 843 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 844 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] Members or indeed of the majority of Government Members, but to my mind that would have a positive must be provided to the voter—whether voting by post effect on British politics, enabling more people to engage or in person. The Bill provides not just for an advisory in the political system. referendum but an enacting one, so it will happen if there is a yes vote. The provisions make it clear that Sir Stuart Bell: My hon. Friend is making his usual voters can continue to express their preference for as fluent speech with great confidence, but how can he say long as they wish—or, indeed, they can stop expressing that this will provide a better system? I do not want to it if they wish to. They can simply say, “My first go too wide of the amendment, but how can it possibly preference is exhibit A” and subsequently make no be right that seven votes are required to end up with a further preferences. In the Labour leadership contest, majority of 50%? If there are seven candidates, people which used the alternative vote—the votes of all Labour will vote seven times. How is that a fair result in a MPs were published—quite a few Labour Members democracy? voted just for their first preference and chose not to exercise their second, third or fourth preference at all. Chris Bryant rose— Some chose to go right down the list—whether it was so that they could say that they had voted for all five candidates, who knows? The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I hope that in replying, the hon. Gentleman will not be tempted into a There is only one vote, but this brings us to a key general discussion about AV. question raised by the Minister yesterday: under the system intended to be used, will the winning candidate always have received 50% plus one of the votes? Chris Bryant: I would like to ask you, Ms Primarolo, whether you view this as constituting a stand part Graham Stringer: On this technical point, does it not debate as well. depend on how many second preferences are made or, under the full alternative vote system, on how many The Second Deputy Chairman: I do not consider this other additional preferences are made? It is not necessary to be a stand part debate because the amendment is to get past 50%. very narrow. Members should be aware of that: if they push the margins too widely, it will lead to sacrificing Chris Bryant: I gave way rather too soon, as that was debate later. precisely the point I was about to make. If people decide not to cast a second or third preference, it is Chris Bryant: Fine. I just wanted to give notice that perfectly possible that the winner will not have achieved we would like a stand part debate when the debate on 50% plus one of the total number of votes originally this amendment has concluded. cast. The winner will have acquired 50% plus one of the My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough votes of those still expressing a preference at that stage, (Sir Stuart Bell) is wrong. In theory, it might seem whereas under the hon. Member for Christchurch’s possible to cast seven preferences if there were seven proposal more often the individual elected would not candidates; however, a preference would be expressed have got even close to 50% plus one of the total number only six times, as at the end it is a choice between the of votes cast. That is why I disagree with the system he sixth and seventh candidates. It is unlikely that that proposes. would happen very often in practice. I fully understand the point made about the term “alternative”. I am one of those irritating people who Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I have heard regularly objects when the word “less” is used when the hon. Gentleman’s speech so far, although I have not “fewer” is meant. I am annoyed when Marks and Spencer heard all the debate so far. Is not one advantage of the uses it—a pretty depressing state of affairs. I have amendment the fact that if the voting were constrained noticed, however, that although I keep on saying this to those possibilities, it would remove the possibility and correcting people, it wins me no friends—it just that major party candidates would try to appeal to irritates people; it has not changed anybody’s practice. extreme parties that might be well down the voting list? It is absolutely true that in Latin—most of us do not speak it much of the day, although the Mayor of London might—alternative means one or the other out Chris Bryant: I am tempted to make a partisan comment of two. Sometimes in places such as Wales there are just about the hon. Gentleman’s own political party appealing two candidates—Labour and Plaid Cymru—but for the to extremist views, but I have decided not to. most part the number of candidates is considerably I do not think that that opinion can be genuinely higher. There have not been many unopposed elections held. Undoubtedly all politicians presenting themselves for many years, either. for election try to secure the largest number of votes. If we end up with an alternative vote system, whereby What I think that AV will do—and here I agree with the people can express their preferences on a full list, the Deputy Prime Minister—is put an end to safe seats. I number of candidates standing will probably increase. say that as one who represents a seat that many people There will probably be candidates standing for parties would probably consider to be historically safe. that do not expect to win, but they may be able to persuade their voters by saying, “Well, it is all right Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Has the to give me your first preference, but when you want to hon. Gentleman considered the position in Australia, plump for the person you would most like to win, as which operates a form of the alternative vote? I understand opposed to the person most likely to win, you can do that a large number of seats are won on the first count, so”. I understand that this is not the view of all Opposition and are safe seats. 845 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 846 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Chris Bryant: A significant difference is that in Australia relevant to the amendment. Perhaps I can help the hon. voting is compulsory. Exactly the same argument could Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) by informing him be used about Chile, but it also has more political that he can move on. parties taking part in elections, and consequently ends up with a rather broader way of doing politics. Chris Bryant: I am very grateful, Ms Primarolo. I should have thought that the views of the parliamentary Sir Stuart Bell: This intervention relates directly to Labour party were slightly relevant to the debate—certainly the amendment, Ms Primarolo. I am grateful to Lord when it comes to the vote—but obviously I do not seek Campbell-Savours for pointing out to me that the alternative to challenge your ruling. I merely say to my hon. Friend vote as described in “the Chope amendment” is Labour the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) that I do policy as recommended by the report of the Plant not think that anyone has fully tested the precise views commission. It was described as the supplementary held, and there are many respects in which I think he is vote, and was devised by Lord Campbell-Savours and wrong. For instance, I think that the vast majority of us Professor Dunleavy. In fact, Labour policy entirely in the parliamentary Labour party want to change the conformed with the amendment. electoral system, so that registration can be improved throughout the land and the 3 million people who are Chris Bryant: Lord Plant is a very eminent and splendid currently not on the register can be included. man who has contributed much to the Labour party and to the movement, but I do not think that the policy I merely wished to make a few simple points. If it is that we advocated before the 1997 general election certain that we are to have a clause stand part debate, I necessarily binds us in this evening’s vote. [Interruption.] will reserve some of the other points that I wish to make I note that the Minister of State, Department of Health, until then. the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) is worried 6.15 pm about people standing by commitments that they made Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I believe that the in 1996. His party cannot even stand by commitments amendment draws attention to something that is at the that it made earlier this year, so I am not sure that he is heart of the debate about AV: the weighting of particular one to talk. votes. Under our current system, people vote positively. My simple point is that I think it likely that if Britain They go out and vote for a particular party. They have ends up with an alternative vote system, not as one vote, and if they vote more than once they are recommended in the amendment but as recommended disqualified. They must make a choice. Under AV—under in the Bill, we will end up with fewer safe seats in the the system that may be proposed by the Government sense in which many people understand it. It may well tonight—it is possible to vote one, two, three, four, five, be that the historical reality of safe seats is changing six, seven times. What the system does not take into anyway because many more voters now adopt a pick- account is the strength of people’s preferences. A first and-mix approach. preference may be outweighed by a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh preference. That moves us away Sir Stuart Bell rose— from positive politics, and I do not think that the system will be made any better by a second, third, fourth, fifth Chris Bryant: I do not know whether my hon. Friend and sixth choice. has received another note from Lord Campbell-Savours, We are committed to a form of AV. As was pointed but of course I will give way to him. out by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch Sir Stuart Bell: Will my hon. Friend make clear to the (Mr Chope), in the London elections we have Committee that when he talks of being in favour of a supplementary votes. People vote once or twice. In change in the voting system and of getting rid of safe practice, most Members who are elected have well over seats, he is expressing a personal opinion, and not the 40% of the vote, and it would probably take only one opinion of the Labour party? count of the bottom candidate, or perhaps the two bottom candidates, before someone would have more Chris Bryant: I said at the outset that I knew that my than 50%. If we want a system under which people have personal support for the alternative vote was not necessarily majority support, I am not sure that we need “one, two, shared by all those sitting behind me. I am glad that my three, four, five, six”. I think that one or two might hon. Friend—my knighted hon. Friend—has given himself produce a better, more efficient, more effective system. an opportunity to put on record his scepticism about We must consider the weighting problem. Under AV, the policy being advocated. I am only sorry that he does a candidate with 20,000 votes could lose. If two others not agree with me, but I know that he agrees with me gained 10,500 votes each, a candidate with twice as about many other matters. much support as the second candidate could come second overall. The weighting element is a weakness of Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Will my AV, although it is not a weakness of proportional hon. Friend bear in mind that it would be wrong to representation, because PR—particularly in its purest conclude—and I am sure that he is not so doing—that sense—involves equality of votes. Under our current the vast majority of members of the parliamentary system there is some wastage of votes, but people vote Labour party want any change in the electoral system? positively. Under the additional member system, in Many of us believe that, with all its flaws and blemishes, both Wales and Scotland, the list provides a balance the existing system is the best. against first past the post. The more choice people are Chris Bryant rose— given, the more likely it is that a second or third choice will outweigh a first choice. I do not think that that is The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I am sure the fair or right. People will be allowed to vote many times hon. Gentleman knows that the views of the parliamentary because they make the wrong choices three or four Labour party, vast or otherwise, are not specifically times. 847 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 848 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman said that in Wales I am opposed to preferential systems that make people and Scotland there was a list to balance the inequities of express a preference. I think that many of my constituents first past the post. Is he one of those who feel that will choose just to cast a first preference vote for the inequities are manifest in first past the post? candidate whom they most want to be elected, and I am opposed to the supplementary vote system—which the Mr Syms: I have always supported first past the post, previous Labour Government forced on us in London— but if I were to argue for any alternative I would go for because it allows those electors who wish to express the German system, which could effectively be used in preferences to express no more than a second preference. Scotland or Wales. I think that it is a better, more My position is very clear, therefore. I am in favour of logical system, which retains the link between Member first past the post, but if we are to give people a and constituency. However, that is not what is proposed preferential system it should be a system that allows in amendment 62. electors to express their preferences. I think that the amendment is sensible because it goes to the root of AV, which is the weighting of votes. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Is the hon. Endless weighting of votes makes a system that is Gentleman’s point not borne out by the fact that in meant to be fairer much more unfair, because those who multi-member wards where people are obliged or asked have a first choice are cancelled out. It might be fairer if to cast many votes, they frequently just cast one, two or someone’s second preference were counted as half a three? This is a matter of choice, therefore. vote, or someone’s third preference as a third of a vote, Gavin Barwell: In my experience of council elections, or someone’s fourth preference as a fifth of a vote; but most people cast votes in accordance with the number treating the preferences equally produces lowest-common- of vacancies that there are, but some people do decide denominator politics. It means that the least offensive that they want to vote for only one or two candidates, people can win, and that those with the most positive perhaps because there are not three candidates on the and passionate politics can lose. ballot for whom they wish to vote, and that is their democratic right. Chris Bryant: I believe that the hon. Gentleman is I believe the Government have chosen the right system. opposed to the use of AV, full stop, and will argue for a If it were ever used, it would give maximum choice to “no” vote in the referendum. I should have thought, my constituents. Therefore, with respect, I say to my therefore, that it would make more sense for him to hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch that his ensure, according to a sort of Maoist principle, that the amendment is misplaced. question on the ballot paper is the one that he can most easily attack. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend Mr Syms: I am not sure that the average voter will be the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), whose much impressed by having a choice between one to remarks have been very supportive. seven or just a supplementary vote. I think they will be The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member utterly confused in the coming referendum, and who for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is very interesting, but I wins and who loses may well be in the lap of the gods. fear that it does not do what he seems to think it does. The weighting of votes is the weakest element of AV. As he is an experienced Member, I say with some I am committed to the coalition agreement and I will trepidation that his amendment is defective. He seemed vote for the Bill and support the Minister, but I will also to be explaining that, in effect, it delivers a supplementary participate in the debate and I think that, regardless of vote system under which only the top two candidates whether the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member are capable of winning the election and all the other for Christchurch is a probing amendment, it is a useful candidates are eliminated, and therefore voters only contribution to the discussion of the relative merits of express two preferences. That is not what his amendment the AV system, which does not have many merits. does, however. It limits the number of preferences to be expressed to two, but that does not have the effect he Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I will be very was hoping for. Under his amendment, it would still be brief and I will try to stick directly to the issue in hand. possible for a candidate who had come third and been I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch eliminated to win the election if they were the recipient (Mr Chope) that no electoral system is perfect, and I of many second preferences. I therefore fear that his believe that first past the post is the best system for amendment is technically defective, because it does not electing Members of this House. However, I do not do what he clearly outlined he wished it to do. Given agree with the Maoist principles to which the hon. that, I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw it. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) just referred. If In choosing the form of AV that is proposed in the we are going to put a choice to the people, those of us Bill, we were very clear that we wanted the optional who believe in first past the post should want to propose preferential system as we did not want voters to be against it the best possible version of AV so that if the forced to vote for candidates they could not stomach. referendum result is the opposite of what we want, we We thought it was not right to force voters to have to still get an acceptable electoral system. express a preference for a British National party candidate, To answer a question posed by my hon. Friend the for instance, when they think that the views that that Member for Christchurch in his opening remarks, I candidate espouses are repugnant. However, we also believe the reason the Government have got this right thought that voters should be free to vote for just one and their proposal is better than the supplementary candidate if they so wished. There should be maximum vote system is that if we are going to give people the choice for the elector. That is why we chose the system option of a preferential voting system it should be the that is in the Bill as the one to put to the electors, and I option that gives electors the maximum flexibility possible. recommend it to the Committee. 849 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 850 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Chope: It appears that my hon. Friend will not Mr Harper: We have put a version of AV in clause 7, address the following question: if my amendment does so that is clearly the system the Government believe the not achieve the purpose of introducing, for the sake of voters should have a choice on. They should choose consistency, the London AV system, would he be in between that system or the existing system of first past favour of an amendment that did achieve that being the post. We considered the London supplementary brought forward on Report? If not, can he answer this vote system, but we did not choose it because we question: why does he believe we should have more than wanted to give voters the maximum amount of choice. one AV system operating in this country—the London As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central set AVsystem plus the AVsystem he is introducing through out, we wanted to give voters the opportunity to select the Bill? from the range of candidates instead of just giving them two choices. Mr Harper: I will try not to stray too far outside the terms of this debate, and I will not get into a debate Mr Chope: If the Minister is saying that the coalition from the Dispatch Box on the merits of different electoral Government are against the AV system used to elect the systems. The Government are proposing this referendum London Mayor, is he also saying that the coalition with the choice between first past the post and AV, and Government are minded to change that system to the the Government are neutral on those two electoral AVsystem proposed in the Bill, if that system is supported systems. That is a matter for the yes and no campaigns, in a referendum? and for the Members campaigning in them. The Government will not express a preference from the 6.30 pm Dispatch Box. I will, however, take my hon. Friend Mr Harper: That is not what I said, and my hon. through both his argument and the reasons why we Friend will know that we are discussing the system for support putting to the voters the system proposed in the electing Members to the House of Commons. The Bill. choice of systems that the coalition Government want If I have rightly understood my hon. Friend’s to put before the electors in a referendum is the choice argument—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—he of either sticking with first past the post or using the was putting forward the supplementary vote system alternative vote system that we have put forward. The reason used in London. That has two features. First, voters we thought it important to put in the Bill the version of have only two choices: they can express only two preferences, the alternative vote system that will come into effect if which is also what his amendment proposes. Secondly, there is a yes vote in the referendum—the debate has if no candidate gets over 50% of first preference votes—I brought this out—is that voters are clear about what think I am right in saying that no candidate has done so they are voting for. It is also so that the two campaigns—the since the system was put in place—only the top two yes campaign and the no campaign—can look at the candidates stay in the race. All other candidates are Bill and clearly explain to voters the system that they eliminated, and the second preferences of those who are voting for or against, and the consequences of that voted for those eliminated candidates are redistributed, system. Voters can then make an informed choice. and we then discover which of the top two wins. That is the piece that my hon. Friend’s amendment does not Austin Mitchell: Perhaps the Minister can help me insert into the Bill, however. My hon. Friend’s amendment with a further point. It is good to see the Government could lead to a situation that I think he said he would being so nice and sensitive, in that they will not force find undesirable, in that it would still be perfectly possible people to vote for the whole slate; they will allow people for a candidate who had not finished in the top two to to choose how many candidates they vote for—that is be the winner if they received a significant number of the essence of what he is saying, I think. But will that second preference votes from those who were first not produce unpredictable results, in that if someone eliminated. votes for the whole slate—for a first, second, third, fourth and fifth preference, or whatever—their vote Mr Chope rose— counts more heavily than that of someone who votes for just one or perhaps two candidates under the London The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. The Minister is system? Does that not open up the possibility of the addressing very clearly a number of complex points, donkey vote, which we all know applies in Australia, and I realise that he is looking behind him because he whereby less-informed voters simply list the candidates wants to be as helpful as possible, but we need him to in first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth place face forward so that Members in all parts of the Chamber according to where they are on the form? There is can hear his comments. therefore a great premium on having a name beginning with A. For that reason, when the system comes in, I Mr Harper: I am grateful, Ms Primarolo. I think my will change my name to A1 Austin. The donkey vote hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch wanted to will count more than legitimately calculated and thought-out intervene. votes. Mr Chope: Can my hon. Friend answer clearly whether Mr Harper: It is difficult to start to get behind what is he believes the London system—which I have described on ballot papers, and to analyse the amount of thought as the London AV because that is how it was described that voters put in to what they write on them. I am sure by Professor Dunleavy—should be applied nationally that all of us, when we have looked at the results of and therefore should be put in the referendum, or does elections in our constituencies and council elections, he believe the referendum choice should give people the have sometimes wondered what thought processes voters chance to have both a supplementary AVsystem and his used in casting their votes. We have not always agreed version of AV? If so, we could end up with two different with the result, but democracy is a wonderful thing; we forms of AV in this country’s electoral system. give everyone who is over the age of 18 and who is 851 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 852 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Harper] Chris Bryant: The Minister is absolutely right. In the present system, in multi-member wards in local government eligible to vote the chance to do so. In a democracy, we elections, if there are three seats to be filled, voters can have to take the results that we get and make the best of put three crosses, if they want. Quite often, they do not them, regardless of the amount of thought put into use all three. That may be because they do not know them. I will not try to psychoanalyse how voters will that they are able to use all three, or it may be that they express their preferences and how much thought they choose not to use all three—who knows? It is not for us put into them. to guess, but allowing voters a degree of freedom is a good idea. Mrs Laing: I appreciate that the Minister is trying to be very fair in how he and the Government draw up the system that might, if the referendum succeeds, come Mr Harper: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. into force, but has he seen the carefully compiled scientific I am conscious, Mr Gale, that the Chair will permit a evidence that shows that alphabetical preferences do stand part debate, so I will conclude my remarks on the matter? The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitchell) is possibly joking—or perhaps not—about Christchurch. As I say, I fear to point out to him that it changing his name to A1 Austin. If that was his name is technically defective—it does not do what he intends on the ballot paper, and if I became Mrs Aardvark— it to do—so I request that he withdraw it and allow us nobody named Aardvark has so far asked me to marry to debate the clause as it is; we can then see whether the them, but you never know—[HON.MEMBERS: “Aah!”] House is content to let the clause stand part of the Bill. Thank you. There is a distinct possibility that the alphabetical weighting would have an unfair, undemocratic Mr Chope: This has been a useful debate, and I am effect on the result of the ballot. grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for what he Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that said. I thank everybody who has participated; we have point. I have seen the odd piece of analysis that says had some interesting insights. I am particularly grateful that even under the existing first-past-the-post system, to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) it makes a small difference which end of the ballot because he brought up important points about the need paper one’s name is on. It really comes down to the to give equal weight to votes and the way in which that point that I made to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby: principle is undermined by the principle of the alternative I am not going to analyse how people reach their vote system. decisions. Some people reach them after careful, considered It is semantics to say that people have only one vote, thought, and some people do not. We just have to live but some people’s votes may be counted more than with the results of their decisions in a democracy. once; that is the equivalent of saying that some people have several votes and some have only one, but if that is Austin Mitchell: I shall not change my name back to how the proponents of AV wish to try to campaign in Haddock, at any rate. My point was simply that if the AV referendum, so be it. somebody uses all their preferences, their vote has a greater weight because it is redistributed more than that I am grateful to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough of someone who votes for only one or two candidates. (Sir Stuart Bell) for his intervention, and I notice that Is that correct? he has an amendment on the amendment paper that effectively seeks to introduce the French system. I must Mr Harper: Well, no. That is a common misconception. say that when he told the Committee and me that the A person’s vote is counted only once at any one time, noble Lord Plant of Highfield and the noble Lord but clearly, if someone lists a number of preferences, it Campbell-Savours supported my amendment, I immediately is more likely that the vote will still be in the count later got rather cold feet about its wisdom. in the process. It is up to the voter how many preferences they express, and the voter can take that into account The purpose of the amendment was to try to draw when they cast their vote. out a discussion and get from the Minister a justification— whether it is satisfactory is another matter—of why the Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does my hon. AV system put forward in the referendum is different Friend agree that if somebody chooses to vote for only from the AV system in London for the election of the one candidate, that is a matter for them? It is not for us London Mayor. to decide whether they should list five, six, seven or eight preferences. Whoever is voting, there will be anomalies; Mr MacNeil: I often hear Conservative party members, I do not know whether he agrees. Perhaps Aaron Aardvark in particular, talking about first past the post or even will be first on the ballot paper—I will introduce him advocating the form of AV that he might be advocating to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest at the moment. Would he ever advocate that for the (Mrs Laing)—but none the less, I honestly think that leadership of the Conservative party, which, as I remember, the matter should be left to the people. seemed almost to be AV for slow learners over the two Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, or three weeks that it took? and that is exactly why we chose the optional preferential system—so that voters could vote once if they wanted Mr Chope: Actually, it was a very sensible system, not to, or for as many candidates as were available. We dissimilar to the one operated in France. Basically, there thought that that choice was better left to the voter. is one election and the person who gets the fewest votes Chris Bryant rose— drops out and there is a completely fresh start with a fresh ballot. For example, when Mr Michael Portillo Mr Harper: I will give way once more, to the Labour sought to become the leader of the Conservative party, Front Bencher, and then I will make progress. he had the largest number of votes— 853 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 854 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale): Order. With of the Bill. I could not see it anywhere else in the great respect, we have moved an extremely long way schedule that pertains to this measure and consequently from the purpose of the original amendment. I presume that at some point we might need to put it into the Bill through some form of amendment. Obviously, Mr Chope: I am sorry, Mr Gale. I was trying to give a it is important that we get this right now, because once full answer to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an the Bill has gone through, it will be far more complicated Iar (Mr MacNeil). after the referendum—if it is successful and there is a My feeling is that the first-past-the-post system is yes vote—for us to go back to it. best. I understand that the system in the Bill is similar Secondly, on page 5 it also says that if one candidate to that used to decide the winner of the Eurovision song has more votes than the others put together, that is the contest. If the Eurovision song contest voting system is determining factor, rather than achieving 50% plus one the one contained in the Bill, I am sure it will find a lot of the total votes cast. Will the Minister clarify why we of support with the people out there. are using that process? I presume it is because at each For my part, I think it would be better to withdraw subsequent stage one would not be able to guarantee the amendment and for us to think again about whether that anybody was going to achieve more than the 50% plus we want to bring forward an amendment on Report to one of the total number of votes cast, including those introduce an alternative identical to the system used in that were spoilt and all the rest of it. I would be grateful London, for the sake of consistency. In any event, we if the Minister could reply on that point. should reflect on the pertinent points that have been made in this debate and seek to consider further whether 6.45 pm we wish to adopt what used to be the old Labour party The section of the clause that I am more troubled policy. That is the Achilles heel, I would be the first to by—I hope that the Minister might be able to alleviate admit, of my proposal, and I beg to ask leave to my concerns—is subsection (4) on page 6, which states: withdraw the amendment. “The Minister may by order make any amendments to primary Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. or secondary legislation (whenever passed or made) that are consequential on amendments made by this section or Schedule 6.” The Temporary Chair: Order. Ms Primarolo has said The clause, which will be that section, and the schedule that there will be a stand part debate, but she and I are comprise a large number of substantial issues. I believe agreed—and I have followed the debate very carefully—that that if they were ever to be amended, they should be the clause is very narrow in its remit. It sets out how amended by primary legislation and not by secondary votes are to given, how votes are to be counted and legislation. It seems on the face of it that the Bill gives what information is to be given at each stage and no an enormous power to the Minister to effect a change. more. I trust that the stand part debate will address For instance, I presume that this means that, if the those issues and no others. Minister wanted to, he would be able to bring forward Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the an order to change the provision on how votes are Bill. counted or, indeed, on how votes are to be given. For instance, one might only be able to have the system that Chris Bryant: The most important element of the the debate on the amendment tabled by the hon. Member clause is the fact that it turns an advisory referendum for Christchurch (Mr Chope) prompted. It seems to me into an implementing referendum. In one sense, it is one that that would be an inappropriate amount of power of the most important clauses in the Bill. Indeed, if to be giving to the Minister to exercise through secondary there is a yes vote, it will directly change the voting legislation. system and several elements of it. I have a series of I note of course that subsections (5), (6), (7) and (8) questions that I hope the Minister will be able to make other provisions in relation to this matter, such as: answer. “An order…may not be made unless a draft of the order has First, subsection (1) of the clause, on page 5 and on been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of the subject of how votes are to be cast, states: Parliament”— “A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with…the I understand that—and: number 1 opposite the name of the candidate who is the voter’s first preference (or, as the case may be, the only candidate “Before making an order…the Minister must consult the Electoral for whom the voter wishes to vote)…if the voter wishes, the Commission.” number 2 opposite” However, those are not very firm locks. I know that the and so on. In relation to the discussion we have just Minister and the Deputy Leader of the House, in the had, I wonder whether if somebody marked the ballot previous Parliament, much deprecated in the previous paper with a cross against their first preference, which Parliament the fact that secondary legislation is would clearly be an indication that that was the only unamendable and that the debate goes on only for a way that they were choosing to vote, that would not be fixed amount of time. If we are talking about changing counted as a valid vote. the electoral system, that should not be something that is brought about by secondary legislation. Mr Harper rose— The Minister might be able to assuage my concerns, but our commitment was that we would come forward Chris Bryant: Perhaps the Minister will be able to with an advisory referendum. The clause makes it into respond when he replies to the debate, because I have a an implementing referendum, and we are still very few other questions in this vein. It would be my feeling unhappy about elements of this. I shall not rehearse the that that should be the case, although I am not sure arguments about the date of the referendum—as the whether in law it is necessary for us to put it on the face Minister knows, we disagree with that. We disagree with 855 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 856 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill the combination of the polls and we also disagree with Mr Harper: I hesitate to jump forward, Mr Gale, the process that is being adopted, whereby amendments because we are going to debate schedule 6, which is are being brought forward. I have great hesitations linked to this clause. Schedule 6 clearly sets out what to about this clause standing part of the Bill. It changes do if the voter does not use numerical marking. It the nature of what was promised, so I would be grateful works in the same way as current legislation, which asks to hear what the Minister has to say. the voter to make a cross but provides that if they make some other mark on the ballot paper that shows a clear Iain Stewart: I wish to make a very brief contribution preference, the returning officer can count it. The example on a specific technical matter regarding the counting of that we had yesterday, which I have seen, was that if the votes under the alternative vote system. That procedure someone puts a smiley face, but only one smiley face, is outlined in subsection (2), under which the candidate which shows a clear intention, it can be counted. with the fewest votes at any stage is eliminated and his or her next preferences are redistributed. I am not clear Chris Bryant: The difficulty is with the way in which from my reading of the Bill what the situation would be the Bill has been constructed to have some elements of if two or more candidates were tied in last place with an the provisions in the schedule and some in the clause. equal number of votes. Wouldboth candidates be eliminated What will happen if someone puts a cross against a and their votes redistributed or would some form of lot name and putsa1against another name? be held to determine which dropped out and had their Mr Harper: We cannot put in a piece of legislation votes eliminated first? every single possible scenario; that is not done in existing legislation. We have set out what we want voters to do Chris Bryant: I am sure the Minister will say this in a and we have made provision for some common issues. moment, but provision is made for that in schedule 6, Ultimately, as with today’s elections, the returning officer which states that a lot will be drawn. has discretion to judge whether the voter’s intentions Iain Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, are clearly expressed. If they are, the returning officer who clearly has a greater detailed knowledge of the Bill can take them into account, but if they are not, he than me. My question is therefore answered and I shall cannot. That is how existing legislation works. resume my seat. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): It is quite clear which people have not had the benefit of Mr Harper: Let me deal with the questions that I National Union of Students’training, as they are struggling have been asked. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris with how AV, or even STV, would work. What estimation Bryant) was quite right to refer to paragraph 7 of has the Minister given to the cost of documentation to schedule 6, which explains about the elimination of help voters to understand, and from which budget candidates. If they are equal number at the bottom and would that material come? all the preferences are the same, they will be eliminated by lot. If the hon. Gentleman had read a little earlier in Mr Harper: I am not entirely certain whether the that schedule, he would have been able to answer his hon. Gentleman wants to know about the information first question, which was about voters who have made a that is required to ensure that we have a good referendum mark. As page 146 makes clear: campaign, so that when voters cast their vote they know “A ballot paper on which the voter makes any mark which…is what they are voting for, or whether he is asking about if clearly intended to indicate a particular preference for a particular there were a yes vote— candidate, but…is not a number…shall be treated in the same way as if the appropriate number…had been marked instead.” Thomas Docherty indicated assent. As long as the voter makes a clear choice, even if it is a smiley face, that will count. Mr Harper: So he wants to know what will happen if there were a yes vote and the system were brought in. Austin Mitchell: What if an elector makes two Xs; Clearly, if that became the electoral system in this will that ballot be discarded? country, the Electoral Commission would, in the same way that it educates people about the existing system, Mr Harper: As in many of these issues, it is about explain how the system worked. There is provision in whether there is a clear mark. If the elector marks the the legislation about which forms would be used. paper in such a way that it is not possible for the This is a good opportunity to explain to the hon. returning officer to work out what they intended, it Member for Rhondda something that I was going to clearly cannot count, so it comes down to whether they clarify later. He is concerned about the order-making have expressed a clear preference. In the case that the power in clause 7(4), but it is not, as he fears, a power hon. Member for Rhondda set out, it would be clear that allows the Bill to be amended. Indeed, I would be what they had done, so there would be no problem. uncomfortable with that; I am sure he knows my views about the powers of Parliament versus the Executive. If Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister there were a yes vote in the referendum and the new talks about the voter expressing a clear preference. The voting system in clause 7 and schedule 6 were brought practice in Northern Ireland under the single transferable into effect, a number of consequential changes to other vote has been that exactly—if a clear preference is legislation would be required—for example, a number shown by an X or a 1. However, new rule 37A(1)(a), in of the forms used in parliamentary elections would clause 7, says: need to be amended—and this order-making power “A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with…the number would allow the Minister to make those consequential 1 opposite the name of the candidate”, changes. It would not allow the Minister to change the so where does that flexibility come in if it is in legislation electoral system other than through what is in this that the number 1 should be used? clause and schedule 6 if brought in by the electorate. 857 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 858 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Thomas Docherty: Before the Minister moves on, let The clause sets out the key amendments to the me ask my last question again, as he began to answer it parliamentary election rules, which are the conduct and then moved on. As we saw in Scotland with the rules for parliamentary elections. It inserts two new elections and the STV system, there was a great deal of rules—37A and 45A—which concern how votes are voter confusion and it was accepted after the event that cast by voters, how votes are counted and how the not enough money had been spent beforehand on making winning candidate is elected. Further amendments are sure that voters understood the system. Will he assure set out in schedule 6, which will be considered later. Of us that either his Department or another Government the range of voting systems, each has its advantages and Department will provide sufficient funding so that every disadvantages. As I have said, the Government are voter in the United Kingdom is given materials to going to put before voters either the first-past-the-post explain how to fill in their ballot paper under the system or this version of the alternative vote. In developing AV system? the provisions in the Bill, we have taken into account Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is rather jumping legislation and practices used elsewhere in the UK ahead; we have not even passed the legislation for the where preferences are used, as well as the experience of referendum, let alone there having been a yes vote from voting systems in other countries, such as Australia, the voters. He will know that the right body to carry out where AV—albeit not the same version as we have the education process he describes would be the Electoral proposed—is used in elections to the House of Commission, which does not receive its money from the Representatives and in a number of state legislative Government. It makes a request about the resources assemblies. We have developed provisions that we think that it needs to the Speaker’s Committee which puts a are best suited to the House of Commons, drawing on motion before the House, which then decides what UK and international experience. resources to give to the Commission, so it is a matter not for the Government but for the House to decide. 7pm Mr MacNeil: It was not the STV system that created the difficulty in Scotland, but the way in which the lists As we have already set out, voters will, by virtue of were drafted for the first-past-the-post and additional our new rule 37A, rank candidates on the ballot paper member systems. The new STV system did not create as in order of preference by marking 1 against their first much confusion as is imagined; it was the lists for preference, 2 against their second preference and so on. parliamentary voting that did so. It is important for Members who were not present for the debate on amendment 62 to recognise that it is the Mr Harper: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for optional preferential system, so voters do not have to that clarification, but he will forgive me if I do not want vote for all candidates; they can vote for as many or as to get into what happened in Scotland a few years ago. few as they wish. That differs from the version used in The final question that the hon. Member for Rhondda Australia for elections to the House of Representatives, asked was why the Bill does not refer to a candidate where voters are required to rank all candidates in order getting 50% plus one of the votes. The drafting is of preference. The Australian experience is bandied designed to work not just in the first round but, as he about quite a lot, but it is important for Members to suggested, in subsequent rounds. As came out in the recognise that although there are some similarities, this debate on the amendment from my hon. Friend the is a different system from that used in Australia. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), although someone New rule 45A sets out how the votes are to be who wins under the alternative vote system has to have counted. Candidates must secure more than 50% of the 50% of the votes that are still in the count, they do not votes in the count to be elected, so if, following the necessarily have to have 50% plus one of the votes cast counting of voters’ first preferences, a candidate has in the election, because if all voters do not express a secured more than 50% of the votes in the count at that preference, someone can get elected on a smaller share stage, he or she is declared the winner and is elected—and of the original vote. I am sure greatly relieved. If there is no winning candidate It is important that I run briefly through the details at that stage, a further stage of counting would be of the clause, because, as the hon. Member for Rhondda required. Paragraph (3) of new rule 45A provides that has pointed out, if there is a yes vote next year, a the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated from Minister will have to lay an order before the House and the counting process and each vote originally allocated the system we are debating will be the electoral system to them will be reallocated to a candidate remaining in that is used in this country to elect Members to the the count according to the next preference expressed on House of Commons. It is therefore worth the Committee the ballot paper. If, after that stage, a candidate has spending a little time considering what the rules would be. more votes than the remaining candidates put together—so Chris Bryant: Let me ask a brief question. If there more than 50% left in the count—he or she is elected. If were a by-election for a parliamentary seat next year, there is no winner at that stage, the counting process after a yes vote, which system would pertain? continues until someone has more than 50% of the votes remaining in the count and is declared the winner. Mr Harper: The first thing for me to do is draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the part of the Bill that New rule 45B sets out what information the returning talks about the order-making power. If there were a officer makes available about the progress of the count by-election, it would not be practical for different Members at the end of each counting stage, except at the final of the House to be elected by different electoral systems. counting stage, at which the candidate is elected and the The new system would come in at the general election result is declared under rule 50. That makes sure that so that every Member of the House was elected by the everyone knows what is going on. In answer to the hon. same electoral system. It would be invidious to do Member for Rhondda, I have already set out how the otherwise. order-making power works. 859 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 860 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill I hope that Members are clear in their mind about The House proceeded to a Division. which form of AV the Government are proposing that we ask voters about. It strikes me that there is a job of The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale): I ask the work to be done during the campaign, because although Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Members are probably relative anoraks when it comes Lobby. to understanding electoral systems—after all, that is The Committee having divided: Ayes 327, Noes 224. how we get here, and we all have electoral systems very close to our heart—there was a fair bit of confusion this Division No. 85] [7.6 pm afternoon about how amendment 62 would work, and how the AV system will work as set out in clause 7, so AYES whatever side of the debate we shall be on in the Adams, Nigel Crockart, Mike electoral campaign, I think we all have our work cut Afriyie, Adam Crouch, Tracey out. I would therefore ask that clause 7 stand part of the Aldous, Peter Davey, Mr Edward Bill, so that we can move closer to the day when it gets Andrew, Stuart Davies, David T. C. Royal Assent and we can engage in that referendum Bacon, Mr Richard (Monmouth) campaign. Bagshawe, Ms Louise Davies, Glyn Baker, Norman Davis, rh Mr David Chris Bryant: I think we have discovered another Baker, Steve de Bois, Nick Baldwin, Harriett Dinenage, Caroline problem in the clause, have we not, in relation to what Barclay, Stephen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan the Minister just said. He said that the Minister would Barwell, Gavin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen not be bringing AV forward so that it affected any Bebb, Guto Dorries, Nadine by-elections next year. However, clause 7 is the implementing Beith, rh Sir Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie element of the Bill and it hangs on clause 6, which says Bellingham, Mr Henry Drax, Richard that the Minister must put all of this into operation by Benyon, Richard Duncan, rh Mr Alan virtue of an order; and he is now saying that it is not Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain stated anywhere in the Bill that that would happen at Berry, Jake Dunne, Mr Philip the next general election, rather than immediately. Let Bingham, Andrew Durkan, Mark us say that there is a yes vote in May 2011 and there is a Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael by-election at the end of May or in June or July, which Birtwistle, Gordon Ellison, Jane is perfectly possible—or for that matter several Blackman, Bob Ellwood, Mr Tobias by-elections—the Minister’s decision as to whether or Blackwood, Nicola Elphicke, Charlie Blunt, Mr Crispin Eustice, George not to bring in the order would almost certainly end up Boles, Nick Evans, Graham being challenged in the courts, because it is nowhere Bottomley, Peter Evans, Jonathan explicit in the Bill. So I am afraid that I do not find his Bradley, Karen Evennett, Mr David answers sufficient. For that matter, I know he is relying Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael on the word consequential in rule 45B(4), which states Brake, Tom Fallon, Michael that the amendments have to be consequential. However, Bray, Angie Farron, Tim I know from our own time in government that the word Brazier, Mr Julian Featherstone, Lynne consequential can be something of a weasel word, and Bridgen, Andrew Field, Mr Mark some people try to slip larger things in than perhaps Brine, Mr Steve Foster, Mr Don they should. I agreed with him when he used to condemn Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam such matters. Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Freeman, George Mr Harper: To return to my previous point, the hon. Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike Bruce, rh Malcolm Fullbrook, Lorraine Gentleman should read clause 6 more closely. It states: Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard “The Minister must make an order bringing into force section 7, Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Mr Edward Schedule 6 and Part 1 of Schedule 7 (‘the alternative vote provisions’) Burns, Conor Gauke, Mr David if— Burns, Mr Simon George, Andrew (a) more votes are cast in the referendum in favour of the Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick answer ‘Yes’ than in favour of the answer ‘No’, and Burstow, Paul Gilbert, Stephen (b) the draft of an Order in Council laid before Parliament Burt, Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl under subsection (5A) of section 3 of the Parliamentary Constituencies Burt, Lorely Glen, John Act…has been submitted to Her Majesty”. Byles, Dan Goldsmith, Zac In other words, this system will come into force, if there Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert is a yes vote in the referendum, once the order has been Cairns, Alun Gove, rh Michael brought in implementing the new electoral boundaries. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Graham, Richard If by-elections were to be held, they would be for Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James constituencies with the old boundaries, not with the Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris new ones, so I think I was accurate in the way I set out Carswell, Mr Douglas Green, Damian the position. Chishti, Rehman Greening, Justine Clappison, Mr James Griffiths, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Gummer, Ben Chris Bryant: No, I do not think the Minister was, Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gyimah, Mr Sam because he is relying on what happens in the rest of the Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hague, rh Mr William Bill. Anyway, we are not convinced by the Minister’s Coffey, Dr Thérèse Halfon, Robert presentation of his case on the clause, so we will be Collins, Damian Hames, Duncan pressing the clause to a vote. Colvile, Oliver Hancock, Matthew Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hands, Greg 861 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 862 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Harper, Mr Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Vickers, Martin Harrington, Richard McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Harris, Rebecca McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Charles Hart, Simon McVey, Esther Soames, Nicholas Walker, Mr Robin Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Wallace, Mr Ben Hayes, Mr John Metcalfe, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Walter, Mr Robert Heald, Mr Oliver Miller, Maria Spencer, Mr Mark Ward, Mr David Heath, Mr David Mills, Nigel Stanley, rh Sir John Watkinson, Angela Hemming, John Milton, Anne Stephenson, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Henderson, Gordon Mordaunt, Penny Stevenson, John Wharton, James Hendry, Charles Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain White, Chris Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Stewart, Rory Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hollingbery, George Morris, James Streeter, Mr Gary Whittaker, Craig Hollobone, Mr Philip Mosley, Stephen Stride, Mel Whittingdale, Mr John Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Stuart, Mr Graham Wiggin, Bill Horwood, Martin Mulholland, Greg Stunell, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Hosie, Stewart Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Williams, Mr Mark Howarth, Mr Gerald Munt, Tessa Swales, Ian Williams, Roger Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen Hughes, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Williamson, Gavin Huhne, rh Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, Mr Hugo Willott, Jenny Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Wishart, Pete Hunter, Mark Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Wollaston, Dr Sarah Huppert, Dr Julian Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Wright, Jeremy Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, Mr Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Simon Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Tomlinson, Justin Yeo, Mr Tim James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth Young, rh Sir George Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ottaway, Richard Tyrie, Mr Andrew Johnson, Gareth Paice, Mr James Uppal, Paul Tellers for the Ayes: Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Vaizey, Mr Edward James Duddridge and Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Vara, Mr Shailesh Stephen Crabb Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, Mike NOES Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Kelly, Chris Percy, Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Chope, Mr Christopher Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clark, Katy Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Ali, Rushanara Coaker, Vernon Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Anderson, Mr David Coffey, Ann Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Austin, Ian Connarty, Michael Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Bailey, Mr Adrian Cooper, Rosie Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Bain, Mr William Cooper, rh Yvette Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Balls, rh Ed Corbyn, Jeremy Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creasy, Stella Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Alex Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Begg, Miss Anne Cunningham, Mr Jim Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Bell, Sir Stuart Cunningham, Tony Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Benton, Mr Joe Dakin, Nic Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, Mr Andrew Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Betts, Mr Clive David, Mr Wayne Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davidson, Mr Ian Lloyd, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Rosindell, Andrew Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Long, Naomi Rudd, Amber Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Lopresti, Jack Ruffley, Mr David Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob Brennan, Kevin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Brown, Lyn Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Caroline Sanders, Mr Adrian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Luff, Peter Sandys, Laura Brown, Mr Russell Doran, Mr Frank Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Bryant, Chris Dowd, Jim MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Selous, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Doyle, Gemma Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dromey, Jack Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Cairns, David Dugher, Michael May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Eagle, Maria McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Campbell, Mr Ronnie Efford, Clive McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Cash, Mr William Elliott, Julie McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Smith, Miss Chloe Caton, Martin Ellman, Mrs Louise 863 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 864 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Engel, Natascha McGovern, Alison Wicks, rh Malcolm Woodcock, John Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Williamson, Chris Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Winnick, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Mark Tami and Flint, rh Caroline Meale, Mr Alan Wood, Mike David Wright Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Question accordingly agreed to. Gardiner, Barry Mitchell, Austin Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Gilmore, Sheila Moon, Mrs Madeleine Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Godsiff, Mr Roger Morris, Grahame M. Schedule 6 Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM: FURTHER Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg AMENDMENTS Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Ian Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Mr Harper: I beg to move amendment 198, page 147, Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela line 18, leave out ‘45A(4) or (5) above in’ and insert ‘45A Hain, rh Mr Peter Nuttall, Mr David above— Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi (a) in’. Hamilton, Mr Fabian Osborne, Sandra Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale): With this it Harman, rh Ms Harriet Paisley, Ian will be convenient to discuss the following: Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Healey, rh John Phillipson, Bridget Government amendments 199 to 202. Heyes, David Pound, Stephen I understand that there may be a consensus to hold a Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick slightly broader debate about these Government Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie amendments and to obviate the need for a stand part Hodge, rh Margaret Reeves, Rachel debate, and I am content with that process. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Hoey, Kate Riordan, Mrs Linda Mr Harper: These Government amendments—following Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John our debate yesterday—genuinely fall into the technical Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve category. Their purpose is to set out the procedure in Illsley, Mr Eric Roy, Mr Frank the parliamentary election rules for determining which Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Lindsay candidate is to be elected when only two candidates James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris stand at an election under the alternative vote system Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Joan and they receive the same number of first-preference Johnson, rh Alan Sarwar, Anas votes. The amendments would provide for the returning Johnson, Diana R. Seabeck, Alison officer to decide by lot which of the two candidates was Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim to be elected. Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Under the current first-past-the-post system, a tie Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry between candidates is resolved by the returning officer Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Shuker, Gavin drawing lots. Under the alternative vote system, the Joyce, Eric Simpson, David situation might arise whereby during the count either Keen, Alan Skinner, Mr Dennis two or more candidates at a particular counting stage Kendall, Liz Smith, rh Mr Andrew had the same number of votes or at the final counting Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Angela round the two remaining candidates had the same number Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Nick of votes. The provisions in paragraph 7 insert new Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen rules 49 and 49A into the parliamentary election rules Lazarowicz, Mark Soulsby, Sir Peter to deal with those circumstances. If the tie were at the Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John first counting stage, on first-preference votes, lots would Lewis, Mr Ivan Stringer, Graham still have to be used to decide the outcome. If the tie Lloyd, Tony Stuart, Ms Gisela occurred at a later counting stage, under the alternative Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry vote system the use of preferences would allow the Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth returning officer to refer to previous stages and use Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily those preferences to make the decision. Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Mann, John Trickett, Jon The drafting of new rules 49 and 49A does not Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl specifically cover the unlikely situation in which there McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek are only two candidates at the outset who receive the McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen same number of votes, but we thought it sensible to McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka ensure that that possibility was clearly addressed to McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith avoid any doubt. The Government have therefore tabled McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie the amendments to ensure that rule 49A deals with the McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan possibility of that situation and provides for the winner McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave to be elected by drawing lots. I hope that Members are McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whitehead, Dr Alan content with that. 865 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 866 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill We touched on this issue during our debate about affect the conduct of the referendum next May, but clause 7, but it is worth saying that clause 7 deals with rather the conduct of an election at a subsequent date the two key aspects of the election under the alternative once there has been a successful yes vote in a referendum vote system—how votes are cast by voters and how they and the measure has been introduced. are counted. Schedule 6 sets out further amendments to the parliamentary election rules and other aspects of 7.30 pm electoral law that would be required to hold a UK parliamentary election under the alternative vote. The Thomas Docherty: I apologise to my hon. Friend for changes reflect the fact that the election would be held not being clear enough. I was referring to the 2015 under a preferential voting system. They touch on the elections, where we will have the additional member ballot paper and guidance for voters; how we conduct system in Scotland, as well as first-past-the-post and recounts; how we decide whether the ballot papers are the AV system, if the Government do not give way. rejected; how we deal with candidates with the same Would it not have been better to have one single Bill for number of votes—I have just set out our amendment on fixed terms and for these provisions instead of this that; how the result is declared; a candidate’s deposit; mish-mash of two Bills? and a number of other changes. I am content for any member of the Committee to Chris Bryant: That is a good point, although I have ask me questions on those measures, but I do not see not yet given up on the idea that the Government’s anyone rising to their feet immediately. I urge Members Fixed-term Parliaments Bill will end up with a five-year to accept the Government’s amendments and to agree rather than a four-year parliamentary term, which would to the schedule. be more advisable and acceptable, I suspect, to this House and the other place. If there were to be a combination Chris Bryant: In light of your earlier comments, of simultaneous parliamentary elections in Scotland for Mr Gale, I hope that it is okay for me to stray into a this House and for the Scottish Parliament, and in debate about whether the schedule be agreed to. Wales for this House and for the Assembly, operating under different electoral systems, both of which involved The schedule makes a number of other very important writing “1, 2, 3, 4, 5”, there would be capacity for amendments to the law that pertains to the election, confusion, and polling stations could be a rather complex and they, along with the other measures that we discussed area for voters to enter. Unfortunately, we are not able in clause 7, will come into force when the Minister to have that provision in this Bill because the Government tables the order that follows a yes vote in the referendum. have decided to bring forward not a great reform Act Some of the provisions are pretty straightforward. For but little tiddly bits of reform as they can be spatchcocked instance, the notice that is normally exhibited on the into Bills to appease both sides of the coalition. ballot paper under the existing system says, “Vote for one candidate only”. Obviously, that would be thoroughly Under paragraph 5, the system for recounts will be misleading if we were to adopt the alternative vote changed to allow for a recount to happen at any stage in system, because it would point out precisely what the the voting process. That is obviously a sensible measure. voters had not to do. If, say, five candidates were standing and the person in fifth place is there only by two or three votes, they will One relatively interesting point is that the guidance want to have a recount to make sure that they really are will make it clear: the person who should be eliminated at that stage. I “Do not use the same number more than once.’” remember that when I stood in 1997 in High Wycombe— I presume that if a voter did use the same number more not traditionally a safe Labour seat; in fact, the than once, that would invalidate a vote. I presume that if Conservatives had a majority of 18,000—there was a somebody voted 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, that would invalidate the recount in the ballot, and on a night when many vote at the point that one reached the second preference, Conservative seats fell, my friends thought, “Blimey, it because one would not be able to determine the second looks as if Bryant has won High Wycombe.” In fact, I preference, even if there had been some other strange had not come anywhere near to winning; it was all means of adding to it. about whether somebody else—the Green candidate, I think—had lost his deposit. Thomas Docherty: This is obviously a very technical Under the schedule—it is also animadverted to in the and complex debate, but does my hon. Friend agree that clause that we have just debated—there is to be a public that is exactly why, in the next version of this Bill, the announcement at each stage of the process, so at each Government have to give way on the issue of the same point where there is an elimination the returning officer date for the Welsh and Scottish elections in 2015? The gets everybody together to agree, “Yes, this the person potential for confusion is far too great. who is being eliminated, these are the votes that have been cast, these are the second preferences as they have Chris Bryant: As I have said previously, one difficulty been cast, this is the number of non-allocated ballots,” that we as a Committee have in debating the Bill is that and so on. I am concerned about that, because there has we do not know the precise amendments that the been a growing tendency for the presumption of secrecy Government are going to table on the combination of during the counting process to be completely ignored, polls in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We do with many broadcasters and journalists asking candidates not yet know what the law—as the Government expect on the night, in the middle of the count, to reveal what it to be in relation to those three territorial departments— is happening in the process. That is a disturbing trend, will be, because the statutory instruments have not been particularly in relation to postal ballots. At some counts, tabled. That makes it difficult for us to imagine exactly the returning officer has decided not to validate the what a polling station is going to look like when somebody postal ballots separately but to put them in with all the goes in. However, the measures in the schedule do not others so that nobody can start doing what every political 867 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 868 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] Chris Bryant: I am not sure that that is right. I know about the instance that the hon. Gentleman mentions. party does—the sampling process—and then say, “It Because of the practice of sampling, which happens was the postal ballots that won this election,”or otherwise. when returning officers verify the postal votes separately, I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on I have frequently heard people say—indeed, I have that, particularly as it might apply in the process as it heard it in this House—that a seat was won or lost develops. solely by virtue of the postal votes. I would have thought If we have public announcements at every stage, are that that was an offence. we not letting the secrecy of the ballot run away with us? It has sometimes been difficult to get all the agents Mr Harper: I am not going to get into what may or and candidates together for announcements, and it may not be an offence. The hon. Gentleman may well might take some considerable time to arrive at an be right. I thought that he was citing the situation election result if one had to go through the whole whereby people have referred to results before the result process at each stage. I understand, however, that according was declared, which is clearly more significant. Because to the schedule there can also be a recount at the end of of the nature of the alternative vote, one cannot just the process, as long as the final result has not yet been wait until the final result but must say what is going on announced. If I am wrong about that, I am sure that the at each stage. The Bill makes it clear that that will be Minister will enlighten me. publicly declared so that everybody knows what is going on. I am glad to see this provision: The hon. Gentleman alluded to the recount rules in “A ballot paper on which a number is marked elsewhere than the schedule, which make it clear that at any stage in a proper place shall not be deemed to be void for that reason “a candidate or candidate’s election agent…may request the alone.” returning officer to have the votes re-counted”. That mirrors provisions elsewhere in legislation. However, In the same way as under our current rules, that would I wonder what improper place might be given as a be not a demand but a request that could be made. It reason why a vote might be declared void. In addition, would ultimately be up to the returning officer to grant the provision: it, unless they thought it unreasonable. Of course, the “A ballot paper on which the voter makes any mark which…is returning officer themselves could choose to have a clearly intended to indicate a particular preference for a particular recount if they thought there were problems with how candidate, but…is not a number (or is a number written otherwise the count had progressed. than as an arabic numeral), shall be treated in the same way as if the appropriate number (written as an arabic numeral) has been I think those were the only issues that the hon. marked instead”, Gentleman raised, unless I missed any. I therefore hope that the amendments will be accepted. is an important element of what we are guaranteeing. In the transition from the existing system to the new Amendment 198 agreed to. system, assuming that there is a yes vote, if a voter still Amendments made: 199, page 147, line 19, at end has not quite understood the system, or, for that matter, insert— is a conscientious objector to the new system and therefore ‘(b) in the case of an election with only two candidates wants to vote only with their first preference and chooses who receive an equal number of votes.’. to do so with an X, a tick, or as the Minister frequently Amendment 200, page 147, line 20, at beginning says—I am not sure if that is because he votes in this insert ‘Where paragraph (1)(a) applies,’. way—with a smiley face, then we should allow them to Amendment 201, page 147, line 26, leave out from do so. ‘Where’ to second ‘the’ and insert We are fully supportive of the Minister’s amendments, ‘paragraph (1)(a) above applies but the tie is not resolved under which seem to make sense in the way that he has paragraph (2) above, or where paragraph (1)(b) above applies,’. described. I hope that he will be able to answer the Amendment 202, page 147, line 28, leave out ‘remaining’ questions that I have asked in the course of my comments. and insert ‘two’.—(Mr Harper.) Otherwise, I see no reason why the schedule should not Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to. stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8 Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman seems to be mostly concerned about publicity in relation to the declaration REPORTS OF THE BOUNDARY COMMISSIONS of results. Rule 45B in clause 7 requires the returning officer to “make publicly available”specified information, Chris Bryant: I beg to move amendment 127, page 6, leave so that information will be public not only to those at out line 35 and insert— the count—the agents and so forth—but to the media and everybody else. He refers to an increasing trend for ‘(a) within twelve months of Part 2 of the Parliamentary people to set out the partial results of elections before Voting System and Constituencies Act 2010 coming into force in accordance with section 16(2) thereof’. the result is declared. He will know that that is an offence. I shall not name the person, but there was a The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale): With this it parliamentary candidate—a Member of this House—who will be convenient to discuss the following: did that on Twitter and was suitably chastised. However, I do not think it is a widespread situation that people Amendment 341, page 6, line 35, leave out ‘2013’ and are publicly making declarations or suggestions about insert ‘2018’. the results of general elections. If they were to do so, Amendment 342, page 6, line 36, leave out ‘fifth’ and that would be an offence. insert ‘tenth’. 869 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 870 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Amendment 38, page 6, line 36, at end insert— half-year cycle. It would make far more sense for us to ‘(3A) After subsection (2) there is inserted— proceed on the basis of a four-year Parliament than a “(2AA) The boundary review due to be completed by the date five-year Parliament, especially since I find remarkably set out in subsection (2)(a) above shall not begin until both few instances of the latter around the world. Houses of Parliament have approved a report from the Electoral The existing process for boundary reviews is that they Commission certifying that in its opinion sufficient measures proceed on a seven-year basis. That is partly because have been taken to provide for the registration of eligible after the Triennial Act 1641 originally provided for voters.”.’. three-year Parliaments, there was later a move to seven-year Amendment 70, in clause 9, page 7, line 32, at end Parliaments. As a result of the Parliament Act 1911, insert— Parliaments were changed to five years, but without a ‘(1A) This rule is subject to an independent assessment of the change in the seven-yearly boundary reviews. Boundary Commission as to the potential electorate within any The assumption has always been that the boundary area where the Commission, having consulted— commissions in each nation of the UK are independent. (a) the Electoral Commission, That has not changed, except that an overriding provision (b) the Registration Officer of the local authority or is to be arrived at before each national commission authorities in that area, considers the matter. The Government intend that there (c) such other organisations and individuals whom the should be boundary commission reports on the whole Boundary Commission may choose to consult, country by 1 October 2013 and subsequently every five determine that the difference between the registered electorate years. Our amendment would leave out the words “before and the assessed numbers eligible to be registered is so significant as to give rise to concern about the number of people to be 1st October 2013” and insert served within such constituencies as would otherwise be created “within twelve months of Part 2 of the Parliamentary Voting by rule 2(1) above.’. System and Constituencies Act 2010”— Amendment 125, page 10, line 2, leave out from this Bill— ‘persons’ to end of line 6 and insert “coming into force in accordance with section 16(2) thereof”, ‘who are estimated by the Office of National Statistics to be which of course provides for the entry into force of the eligible to vote in United Kingdom parliamentary elections, Bill. whether or not they are so registered to vote.’. Amendment 135, in clause 16, page 13, line 5, at end 7.45 pm insert We believe that given the provisions that have been ‘with the exception of Part 2, which will not come into force put together, not least those in clause 9 about the until— number of seats, it is a pretty tall order for the boundary (a) after the referendum on the determination of powers commissions to achieve a review by 2013. Some argue devolved to the National Assembly for Wales under that the six or seven years that they have previously the terms of the Government of Wales Act 2006; and taken is too long and carries the risk that population (b) the Electoral Commission has reported to the House movements in the meantime are not taken into account. of Commons, that over 95% of eligible voters in each I have some sympathy with that view, and it may be local authority area are estimated to be on the possible to expedite a boundary review, but that would electoral register.’. require additional resources. I ask the Minister who responds—I presume it will be the Deputy Leader of Chris Bryant: I presume that once we have been the House—what resources there will be. through the amendments, we might then have a clause Why are the Government proposing to have a review stand part debate, but maybe you will wish to return to conducted in less than three years? After all, it would that matter later, Mr Gale, having seen how the debate not even be a standard boundary review. They are proceeds. proposing arguably the biggest, most controversial and As the Committee will know, we are now moving into most complicated redrawing of constituency boundaries part 2 of the Bill, and into what I believe to be its since the departure of Irish MPs in 1921. The reason directly partisan elements. Clause 8 provides for a complete why the 1832 Great Reform Act is the largest Bill sitting change in how the boundary commissions will proceed, rolled up in the parliamentary archives in the Victoria and particularly in the speed with which they will Tower is that it goes through each parliamentary produce their reports. The Government say in subsection (3): constituency in the land in detail, making provision for “ABoundary Commission shall submit reports under subsection (1) each. The current Bill, however, will give the boundary above periodically…before 1st October 2013, and…before 1st October commissions carte blanche and demand a review with a of every fifth year after that.” swiftness that may mean it does not meet the political The last part of that presumes that another Bill that is necessities of the British constitution. currently going through the House, the Fixed-term The Government intend to do all that, of course, on Parliaments Bill, will not only be carried but remain the basis of an entirely new set of inflexible mathematical precisely as it stands. It assumes that we will have rules that will mean factors such as geography, history five-year Parliaments. and community being completely and utterly gazumped I have pointed out before to the Deputy Prime Minister by the need to adhere unbendingly—or, to be fair to the that the average length of a British Parliament in peacetime Government, not entirely unbendingly but only very since 1832 has been three years and eight months. slightly bendingly—to a higher electoral quota. We will Notwithstanding the fact that there have been some discuss that when we come to clause 9. If there were five-year Parliaments, not least the previous one and the ever a case for arguing that seven years is an appropriate final Parliament of John Major’s Government, for the period for redrawing constituency borders, it is now, most part the British political system has tended to because every single constituency in the land is to be move more or less in a three and a half to four and a redrawn. 871 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 872 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Pete Wishart: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): it is right that the boundaries be redrawn, whether in Contrary to the evidence offered by the hon. Member three years or seven? Does he agree that it is almost for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), my hon. Friend absurd and bizarre that Labour can secure 70% of the the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) might be MPs from Scotland with 42% of the vote? Surely that is aware that some extensive work by the university of wrong and must be challenged. Liverpool that was reported on “Newsnight” in the third week of August showed that the proposed Chris Bryant: Obviously I would love Labour to mathematical formula and the arbitrary reduction from secure every single seat in Scotland, but I think the hon. 650 to 600 seats would result in a 13% loss for the Gentleman is trying to entice me to talk about proportional Liberal Democrats, a 10% loss for the Labour party, but systems, which are not the material of part 2. As he only a 4% loss for the Conservatives. knows, I believe that there is a case for reform and for redrawing boundaries, but how do we decide how that Chris Bryant: I happened to see that programme, and should be done? More importantly in the context of it helps my argument, so I am quite happy to refer to it. clause 8, we have to consider what time should be allocated for a boundary commission to be able to carry Gavin Barwell rose— out a review in a genuinely independent way that meets political needs. I understand that he may believe that the boundaries in Scotland are currently drawn up so as Chris Bryant: He is back again. to benefit Labour over the Scottish National party, but I am not sure whether that is true. Gavin Barwell: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s honest answer to my question, and I do not mean to be Pete Wishart: That is exactly what I contend. It takes unhelpful to his argument, but if he accepts that analysis— many fewer electors in Scotland to elect a Labour MP than one of any other party. The reason why I believe a Chris Bryant: I do not accept it. boundary review is necessary is that there is something wrong with the fact that 42% of the voters in Scotland Gavin Barwell: The hon. Gentleman must do a little can elect 70% of its MPs. Surely that cannot be right. better in explaining why he does not accept that analysis. As a fair man, surely the hon. Gentleman will concede If, as the independent British Academy report suggests, that it is wrong. the current boundary system favours the Labour party, albeit in a minor way, does he accept that it is unreasonable Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman knows that in to allow that unfairness to continue, and does he agree majoritarian systems, there is a disproportionate benefit that it should be addressed before the next general for parties that get beyond 40% of the vote. That is a election? simple fact, so in a sense, his argument is partly in favour of a change to the electoral system, which I am Chris Bryant: There are a lot of misconceptions in sure he supports, although I suspect he supports a fully relation to the supposed benefits or otherwise of the proportional system rather than the one subject to the system to the Labour party.For instance, I heard frequently referendum. However, it is not true to suggest—as we during the general election—this is before Cleggmania read in some of the propaganda—that it takes fewer rose and fell—that the system was unfair because the votes to elect a Labour MP than a Conservative or Conservatives would need to be 10 points ahead to gain Liberal MP. [Interruption.] I am not denying that that a majority. That is not precisely the hon. Gentleman’s has happened, but it does not happen because of the point, which I will come to in a moment, but many drawing of the boundaries. It sometimes takes fewer people forget that the difference between winning an votes to elect a Labour MP because of the tendency of election and winning a majority is significant in our likely Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat voters system. However the boundaries are drawn, the moment to live in certain areas. a party gets over the 40% mark in a majoritarian system Gavin Barwell: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the such as ours, it tends to do rather better than its share of report by the British Academy entitled, “Drawing a the vote would suggest. New Constituency Map for the United Kingdom”? It finds that a number of factors give rise to the apparent Mr MacNeil: The reason why parties or people do bias in the electoral system, but that constituency boundaries well in a majoritarian system when they get more than were worth 18 seats to the Labour party at the last 40% of the vote is that the first-past-the-post-system general election. He is right to say that there are a was really designed for two players. A third or fourth number of factors, including the distribution of the player complicates first past the post and renders it vote, but Labour seats are smaller on average than idiotic, but for chaos theory. Conservative seats. That independent analysis found that that was worth 18 seats to Labour at the last Chris Bryant: I enjoyed the hon. Gentleman’s general election. Has he seen that report and would he pronunciation of the word “renders”, but other than like to comment on it? that, I am not sure I agree with his point. It is true that in elections in the previous century, the Conservative Chris Bryant: I have seen the report and I agree with and Labour parties secured something like 95% or some elements of it. I agree with the bits that agree with 96% of the vote and that in the last election, we secured me and disagree with the bits that disagree with me and considerably less than that. That is one reason why we that are unhelpful to my argument. The hon. Gentleman ended up with a hung Parliament. However, I do not see mentioned one of the bits of the report that is not how that bears on my point, which is that in a majoritarian helpful to my argument, so I was not going to refer to it. system, once a party gets more than 40% of the vote—many 873 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 874 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill think that this is the great benefit of that system—it I say this to the hon. Member for Croydon Central tends to find it rather easy to get not just a majority, but (Gavin Barwell), who has intervened three times: changing a fairly hefty one. the boundaries in the way that he suggests will not of itself make the dramatic difference that he thinks it will Graham Stringer: We can try to work out how many make. My argument on clause 8 is that there is a real votes it takes to elect a Scottish National party MP or a danger that the boundary commissions will be unable Labour MP, but the distribution of seats, turnout and to redraw every single constituency in the land with the number of candidates standing are bigger factors proper diligence and sheer impartiality using a mathematical than boundaries. My hon. Friend and I would have no equation. Of course, they can bear other things in mind, objection to a quick boundary review if it were seen to but not if a proposed constituency strays outside the be fair, and if there were a right of appeal against mathematical equation. Boundary Commission decisions. Mrs Laing: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend makes precisely the representatives of the boundary commissions for each point that I have laboriously tried to make, and far part of the UK gave evidence to the Select Committee more succinctly. He is right that a wide range of factors on that point, saying that what they will be required to pertain to the different number of votes it takes to elect do by the Bill can be done properly, reasonably and in a Labour and Conservative MPs. The Liberal Democrats measured and correct way? are not in contention in a large number of seats in the country but none the less gain 15% or 20% of the vote nationally. They accumulate a lot of votes around the 8pm country, but do not necessarily secure seats in the House of Commons. That is one function of the majoritarian Chris Bryant: Yes, I know that they have said that, system. I do not think that the number of votes necessary and of course they would say that, wouldn’t they? If for election indicates fairness or unfairness in relation they are required by Parliament to do that, they will to drawing the boundaries. Short of gerrymandering undoubtedly do their best to achieve it. However, to be the boundaries so that the pockets of Lib Dem voters able to do so for 600 or 650 constituencies—whatever around the country ended up in the same constituencies, number we end up with—will be difficult in a completely we would be unable to overcome that element of unfairness. changed system without dramatically increased resources. The only way it can be achieved in that time is to get rid of the due process—the public inquiries. Getting rid of Gavin Barwell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman those inquiries is likely to destabilise people’s understanding for giving way to me a third time. I completely agree of their parliamentary constituency, and that is a retrograde with his argument on the number of voters that it takes step. Without due process, it is difficult to proceed in the to elect MPs from certain parties. However, for the way that is being suggested. benefit hon. Members who have not seen it, the British Academy report shows that the average electorate in Labour seats is significantly lower than the average Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Surely electorate in Conservative seats. Even after we strip out the important factor is not what the boundary commissions factors such as turnout and the advantageous concentration think, but what the public will make of this process. Is of the Labour vote in certain parts of the country, a not the real danger that the rushed approach and the partisan advantage is still derived from the way in which huge changes that will be made to constituency boundaries the boundaries are drawn. In the average Labour seat, will mean that the public will come to see the boundary there are just over 69,000 electors, but in the average commissions as partisan and unfair, as opposed to Conservative seat, there are just over 73,000. That is independent and objective? unfair. Should it not be corrected before the next election? Chris Bryant: Indeed. The Electoral Reform Society Chris Bryant: I have said several times already in the has produced two versions of what might happen in course of these debates that there should be a greater Wales with a reduced number of seats. The suggestion drive towards equalisation. However, as we will debate for the Rhondda, the parliamentary constituency in under clause 9, I do not want the drawing of our which I take most interest—as hon. Members will not constituencies to be merely mathematical. Other things be surprised to learn—is that the Rhondda Fach should must be taken into consideration. be split, with the north end being put in one constituency and the south in another. It also suggests that one of the Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): One factor that needs to wards should be split in half. That would be bizarre. be taken into consideration is that the United Kingdom Any of us could swiftly split the country up in that is made of four distinct countries, with four distinct way, probably in less than a week, but that does not constitutional settlements. Therefore, to proceed on a necessarily mean that the result would be the right purely mathematical basis is completely incorrect. We constitutional settlement for this country or an appropriate must take into account the constitutional settlements in approach to take. Members of Parliament should have place in the respective countries, a point of which I roots in their local communities—not personally, but know my hon. Friend is very well aware. their office should have roots in the local community—and the number of voters in each constituency should be Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend has been making extremely broadly equal around the country.However, constituencies sensible remarks on such issues ever since he and I were also need to match the political structure in the local at university together, and he makes an important point area, and that is an important factor. Balancing all now. those factors cannot be done swiftly. 875 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 876 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The hon. Chris Bryant: That is certainly true. Should the boundary Gentleman may be overestimating the complexity of commissions start from the south of England and work this task. Gloucestershire has six MPs and almost exactly their way upwards with their mathematical equations? the right population for six MPs under the new system, When the process starts, how often should the boundary so very little adjustment will be needed there. That commissions allow themselves to use the 95% rule and could also be true in large parts of the country, and he how often they should force themselves to use the may be extrapolating too much from the Rhondda 105% rule? In addition, my hon. Friend the Member for valley. Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made the good point that the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain Chris Bryant: That smacked a little of “I’m all right, and Northern Ireland has always been constituted on Jack” to me. The problem is not only what happens in the basis of its four constituent parts. The consideration Gloucestershire and the boundary commissions cannot has always been first that there should be X parliamentary bear in mind only what happens there. I am sure that seats for, say, Wales, and then those seats have been the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Forest of distributed within that area. That is a more constitutionally Dean (Mr Harper) are united on the proposal that wise way to proceed. Gloucestershire should retain six seats. The point is that neighbouring counties may not have sufficient numbers Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend and may have to nick population from somewhere else. will be aware that in Wales we are looking at county When we come to the divvying up of boundaries, that is council boundaries, which is causing all sorts of chaos. one of the issues to which I wish to refer, and I have Some of my wards have registration levels of 70% to some examples. However, just as we should not look at 75%, but in others registration levels are 95%. So the the whole country on the basis of what will happen in decisions will not be made on the true population levels the Rhondda, nor should we look at it in relation to of the seats. what happens in Cheltenham. Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is right. There are Luciana Berger: Unlike in Gloucestershire, we have many reasons why electoral registration is so low in just over 30,000 households in Liverpool that are not on certain communities, and in some cases people do not the register, which means that the number of MPs will want to register because they do not want to pay probably be reduced from five to four, and my hon. council tax—a residue from the original attempt to Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) introduce the poll tax—and others might not want it to received a parliamentary answer that confirmed that it be known that they are living in a particular house. In was conceivable that a constituency in Liverpool could some urban areas, with a highly mobile population, be split by the River Mersey. many people are not registered because the process of registering is so difficult. We make it virtually impossible for someone to register at any one time, and that is one Chris Bryant: That is the sort of thing that makes of the problems that we need to overcome. sheer nonsense of the situation. Indeed, I believe that someone in Cornwall is on hunger strike because of Graham Stringer: Several interventions ago my hon. their objection to the proposals. My hon. Friend mentioned Friend was destroying the complacency of the hon. a constituency being split by a river: for those in the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). He made Rhondda, having half the Rhondda Fach allied with the case that county boundaries will not necessarily be the Rhondda Fawr, and the other half with the Cynon taken into account in working out constituency seats. Valley is almost as difficult a concept to grasp. Does that not show something that has not really come out in this debate and the public discussion, which is Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The speed with that it is most unlikely, if these proposals go ahead, that which this will have to be done and the fact that the any hon. Member will ever again represent the same public inquiries will be dispensed with are key points. In constituency from one election to another? the last two boundary commission reviews in Northern Ireland, both public inquiries led to changes in the Chris Bryant rose— recommendations, and that gave the public confidence in the boundaries. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that The Temporary Chair (Mr Gale): Order. The Front-Bench it is foolish to sweep that aside? spokesman asked whether there would be a stand part debate. As is generally known, I take a fairly relaxed Chris Bryant: I presumed that the hon. Lady would view about these things, but we can have a stand part speak with some authority, as she is a member of the debate only once, and it seems to me that we are having Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission and it now. knows her stuff. She is right: if there is no due process, with a proper opportunity for people to provide oral Chris Bryant: Although you said it with a wry smile, evidence to a public inquiry, the public cannot be carried Mr Gale, you make an eminently sane point. along with the changes to the boundaries. That is why it My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton will be difficult to perform this function to the timetable (Graham Stringer) also makes a good point, which is that the Government suggest. that we are to do this every five years. In other words, between each election, every Member’s boundaries could Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend be redrawn. That does not provide any political stability agree that if we are doing a jigsaw with 600 pieces to constituents. It is already difficult enough for most instead of 650 pieces, every piece will be different, so it members of the public to know who their MP is. It is is naïve to think that significant changes will not be one of the embarrassing things about the British political necessary across the whole country? system that very few people know who their MP is. 877 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 878 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill I hate to refer again to the Rhondda, but it is probably That was not our choice: they were given to us by the easier for people there to know not the name of their right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) MP—I am not asserting that—but that their MP is the when he was Secretary of State for Wales. It is a crazy MP for Rhondda, because they know that they live in number, and would make it very difficult to draw boundaries the Rhondda. Most people do not know the name of without crossing in some cases more than one local their constituency, so when the MP for Middle Wallop authority boundary. That is a political problem. comes on television, they do not know whether they live in Middle Wallop, Upper Wallop or Nether Wallop. Gavin Barwell: The problem that the hon. Gentleman That matters because it is about ensuring that MPs are is trying to explain occurs under the current rules. There not deracinated from the politics around them. are plenty of constituencies in this Parliament that cross local authority boundaries. We already have and deal Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman is missing the point. with the problem to which he alludes. The point is that all Members of the House elected to take part in the law-making process of our Parliament Chris Bryant: I am terribly sorry, but I missed the should come here with equal weight and represent an hon. Gentleman’s point. equal number of people, regardless of whether they are in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland or Wales, and Gavin Barwell: The hon. Gentleman made the point regardless of whether they are from a mountain, a that, if we go for greater electoral equality, we will have hillside, a valley or an inner city. It is the principle of seats that cross local authority boundaries, but there are democracy that matters. already significant numbers of Members representing Chris Bryant: I completely and utterly disagree with seats that cross local authority boundaries. Lots of the hon. Lady. Of course one ought to strive towards London seats cross London borough boundaries. equality in representation, but that is simply not the [Interruption.] No, the London borough of Croydon is British way of creating the House of Commons. Historically, not crossed, but the neighbouring borough of Bromley we said, “Okay, the shires need to be represented”, and has a seat that crosses into Lewisham, and that applies consequentially the knights of the shires were brought to the seats of lots of hon. Members. It is perfectly into the first Parliament in the 13th century—incidentally, straightforward. the only reason we know the names of any of those who first attended is that they presented their expenses chits Austin Mitchell: Not county boundaries. and had them paid. Then we decided that the towns and villages needed representation, because the principle Gavin Barwell: Yes, there are seats at the moment that was that representation was based on communities—it cross regional boundaries. The seat of Brigg and Goole was communities that were represented here. It was not is in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. just about the mathematical calculating machine system for deciding constituencies. There are countries that Chris Bryant: I am not sure who is giving way to have used that system. The United States of America whom now. The hon. Gentleman makes a point, and it uses it for its House of Representatives. In fact, that is sounds like he is happy with crossing those boundaries— what led to the concept of gerrymandering—it was, I [Interruption.] And clearly the Minister is relaxed about think, a Governor of Massachusetts, Mr Gerry, who it as well. However, I am less relaxed about it. There is was the first person to create a constituency designed to already a problem with it, but there is no need to get him re-elected, and it was in the shape of a salamander. exacerbate it. Political boundaries are one thing—in the end they Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): May I are in our minds, they are a political construct—but return to the earlier point about urban under-registration, geographical and cultural boundaries are not just because it is an important point in seats such as mine? boundaries that we have imposed; they have been given However, that is an operational matter for the electoral to us by others. registration officer and the Electoral Commission; it is not an excuse for perpetuating a bias in the electoral Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Further to the intervention system in favour of small urban seats. It is an important from the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg matter, but let us not confuse two things. Hands) about adopting an approach of mathematical Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right in a sense, purity and equality, he will be aware of my amendment 70 although I expect that the under-registration in his on taking into account concerns about voter registration constituency is nowhere near as high as it is in, for levels across the country. This is not merely a technical example, Hackney North and Stoke Newington or Hackney matter for registration officers. As I suggest, it should South and Shoreditch, which have much more mobile be a matter for the discretion of the Boundary Commission populations, in part because the people there do not when it takes into account the relative weight of a own their own homes and because of the ethnic mix. population in an area, bearing in mind the indicative Clear evidence has also been provided showing that registration levels that should apply in that area, whether people from black and ethnic minority groups and poor it be urban or rural. people are far less likely to register. We need to bear that in mind. I shall refer to that again when we discuss how Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman makes a good many MPs there should be. point. The pattern of under-registration is different in different parts of the country. The consistent bits are 8.15 pm that poorer people and those who live in rented The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) accommodation are less likely to register, black and said that we should have mathematical purity when ethnic minorities are less likely to register and the young drawing boundaries. Wales has 22 local authorities. are less likely to register. That is a problem. 879 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 880 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I find this conversation difficult, because we have electoral I confess to the Committee, however, that Labour registration officers whose job it is to get people on to Members cannot preach overly on this issue because we the electoral register. That is their day job. In South failed to take some of the steps that could have been Derbyshire, registration stands at some 98.5%, which is taken to change the electoral registration system. absolutely excellent and shows that it can be done. I do [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham not understand why the hon. Gentleman feels that the (Greg Hands) says rather unfairly, with a scowl on his job is too difficult to do. It is not too difficult to do. face, that we failed to take any measures. We took some measures, but we should have adopted the situation in Chris Bryant: In a sense, the hon. Lady makes my Chile, where it is mandatory to register. I wish that we point for me. Registration in her constituency may be at were moving towards that, but unfortunately the Minister 98%, but in many constituencies in the land it is closer completely disagrees. to 80%. That is precisely the problem, because—to meet the point that the hon. Member for Epping Forest Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): I want (Mrs Laing) made—those are the places where there to follow on from the point about under-registration. will be an inequity of representation if we proceed The response to the hon. Member for Croydon Central solely on the basis of what is proposed in the Bill. (Gavin Barwell), whose constituency I know quite well, is that, on average, there are more registered voters in Mark Tami: I totally agree with the hon. Member for Conservative seats than in Labour seats. The differences South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler). However, that is referred to are more than explained by that demographic the point: the job can be done, but too many local bias. Many Labour seats contain as many people of authorities are interested only in doing a tick-box exercise, voting age as Conservative seats. For example, Bradford as if to say, “We sent the forms, we sent them again, West has an 18-plus population of 77,848, but the we’ve sent someone round, and no one has replied,” registered electorate is just 62,000. Bermondsey and despite the fact that everyone knows that a number of Old Southwark is a starker example. There, the 18-plus people are living in the property concerned. However, population is more than 101,000, but only 76,000 people as far as the local authority is concerned, it has done are registered. Does my hon. Friend accept that this is what it wants to do, but it is not prepared to put in the systematic bias against poorer people in Labour seats? extra work to get those people on to the register. If we compare the number of seats with the size of the 18-plus population, we see that there is no bias. This is Chris Bryant: That is true. Most local authorities are about gerrymandering, not fairness. having to make fairly substantial cuts at the moment, and my anxiety is they will find their electoral registration Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend, now the Member for budgets all too easy to cut, because people will think, Swansea West, is right, in the sense that the level of “Well, you know, what’s the real benefit of that?” From registration makes a dramatic difference to the issues my perspective, if we are to achieve equity—which, that were raised by the hon. Member for Croydon broadly speaking, means achieving the equalisation of Central (Gavin Barwell), which were not sufficiently seats, but not absolute equalisation, to allow for where addressed by the British Academy report. It perhaps the Boundary Commission has an overriding concern, takes someone who is used to knocking on doors and whether about a geographical community or the splitting discovering that the electoral register has large gaps in it of wards, which I hope all hon. Members would think to make that kind of analysis. My anxiety is that many was more complicated—then we need to change what local authorities do not engage in proper canvassing, the Bill currently provides for. and consequently seem to take a rather lackadaisical The Government propose a timetable of less than attitude towards getting people on to the register. Local three years, which is artificially quick, even under the authorities should be saying, “We know you exist, because Bill’s own terms. I do not see why the timetable has to be you’re being paid benefits. The least that we can do is three years. According to clause 8(3), future reviews will put you on the electoral register and not make it almost be held on a five-yearly basis, but the initial, dramatic impossible for you to register.” redrawing of boundaries is being tracked even faster Luciana Berger: Does my hon. Friend believe that the than this apparent ideal. Why? Is the reason that the forthcoming census, which comes only a few months Government are trying to minimise the risks of the results after the arbitrary cut-off date in March and will cost being made out of date by interim changes in the £500 million, with 38,000 canvassers knocking on doors population? There are significant parts of the country across the UK, could provide a fantastic opportunity to where population changes are moving swiftly. Is that the boost registration in constituencies such as mine, where why the Government wish to move so fast? I suspect more than 5,000 households are not on the register? that that cannot be the reason, or else they would be proposing that three years should always be the period Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend makes a good point. for boundary reviews. There is no reason why the census should not be able to I suspect that the truth is far less respectable. As the engage in that activity. If people are going door to door, Deputy Prime Minister himself admitted in the House they could be doing more than one task. In addition, in July, the real reason for this rushed process is political there will be profound embarrassment if, according to convenience. He said that the census, the number of people eligible to register in “we need to start with the work of the boundary review as soon as Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham, or wherever possible in order that it can be concluded in the timetable that we else, turns out to be considerably higher than the number have set out. That is why the boundary review will be based on the of people who are registered, and yet constituencies electoral register that will be published at the beginning of December have still been allocated solely on the basis of those who this year.”—[Official Report, 5 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 37.] are registered. That is a circular argument. 881 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 882 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Greg Hands: Is the hon. Gentleman defending the the Government are insisting, and why the amendments status quo? Under the current system, we typically have would be more appropriate. The hon. Member for boundary reviews every three Parliaments, with the Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) has tabled population data that are fed in typically being about amendment 341, which proposes to leave out the date 10 years out of date. The new boundaries that were “2013” from the clause and insert “2018”. That would introduced in May were based on electoral registers be a more appropriate timetable, and if he were to press from 2000, and they may still be in force in 2024 if we that amendment to a vote, we would want to support have three five-year Parliaments. Is he seriously defending him. Mr Gale, I am grateful for the leniency that you the status quo, under which our data can be up to 24 have shown in this debate, and I look forward to hearing years out of date? what the Minister has to say.

Chris Bryant: I think that I am correct in saying that 8.30 pm that system was set up by the previous Conservative Government, and no, I am not defending the status Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I must quo. I am not defending it in relation to the overall start by saying that I did not know that the word structure of the system that we ought to have, nor am I “majoritarian”existed until now, so, as a politics graduate, defending it in relation to the precise allocation of seats, I have learned something new. I rise to speak in support and so on. As I have said several times in this debate, I of amendments 341 and 342. I am pleased to say that would prefer to move towards closer equalisation. However, they are, in parliamentary terms and in common-sense I want the boundary commissions to bear in mind other terms, remarkably simple. Amendment 341 would simply factors, which should include the political realities of delay the introduction of new boundaries following any the Union, along with ward and other political boundaries. boundary review, whatever its findings, until after the Boundary commissions should also be able to bear in next but one general election. That would mean that the mind geographical features, such as rivers, islands and, next election would be fought on the current boundaries, in my case, valleys, as well as physical access, because it and that the new boundaries—whatever they might is pretty difficult to tie two places together that have no be—would be introduced afterwards, in time for the access between them. election in 10 years’ time, if we have fixed-term Parliaments. The timetable for the boundary review is not driven Amendment 342 relates to the regularity of boundary by practical concerns about what would be suitable, but changes. Redrawing the boundaries every five years, for by crude and, I believe, partisan calculations that are every Parliament, is simply not sensible. I am happy to the antithesis of the supposedly high constitutional support the principle of having more equal constituencies, principles that the Deputy Prime Minister invoked in but the proposals as they are now worded show no his first speech in office. How quickly those noble ideals recognition of the reality of the process of introducing seem to have been cast aside. Back then he promised the boundary changes. Every boundary review and change “biggest shake up of our democracy since 1832, when the Great incurs a significant cost, which we should surely be Reform Act redrew the boundaries of British democracy, for the concerned about in a time of austerity. They also cause first time extending the franchise beyond the landed classes.” chaos for the constituents of all hon. Members around the country, and for all the local authorities that have to Mr Love: Is not the most iniquitous thing about this work out the boundaries. Recently, I found out that one Bill that there has been no attempt to seek cross-party of my local pubs had been wrongly put into Leeds consensus, which has always happened in the past? Central as a result of the latest boundary changes. This illustrates the point of amendment 341. We Chris Bryant: Not only that, but there has been introduced significant boundary changes for the election absolutely no pre-legislative scrutiny. In particular— that took place just six months ago, and to ask the people of this country to understand why we are now The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale): Order. So far going to redraw them again, even for a good reason, is as I can see, we have debated most of clause 8 and a simply not common sense. It is simply not acceptable. chunk of clause 9, and we are now moving on to clause 10. The hon. Gentleman has yet to move the first Mrs Laing: I understand what the hon. Gentleman is of a series of amendments to clause 8, many of which saying, but he must accept that those boundary changes other hon. Members wish to speak to. I would be were based on figures collected almost 10 years ago. grateful if we returned to the amendment. Also, does he accept the principle of the equalisation of the numbers of voters in constituencies? Chris Bryant: Many thanks, Mr Gale. Greg Mulholland: Forgive me, but I do not think the I was trying to argue that the Government want to hon. Lady has been listening to my comments very well, move with precipitate haste towards producing a Boundary because I just said that I supported the principle of Commission report on 1 October 2013, and that that having more equal constituencies. I support that aim, date has been arrived at for the specific purpose of although I also support many of the caveats relating to trying to hold together the coalition, in order to drive common-sense, physical boundaries and to local all of this forward towards the measures relating to determination which other amendments deal with. However, five-year Parliaments in the Fixed-Term Parliaments I support equalisation as a principle. Bill. An Electoral Commission study published earlier Mrs Laing: I was listening to what the hon. Gentleman this year found that under-registration was concentrated was saying, and I am still listening, but he is contradicting among specific social groups. That is why I believe that himself. If he agrees with the principle of equalising the it would be inappropriate to move at the pace on which number of electors in each constituency, he must accept 883 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 884 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mrs Laing] with the Northern Ireland Assembly elections, for example, which happen between general elections but with the that populations move and that their numbers change, same boundaries. When the boundaries change, it can and that there must therefore be boundary changes. If lead to the anomalous position whereby my constituents he is simply arguing that they are inconvenient for the in Dundonald, for example, are part of the Belfast East boundary commissions, I do not think his argument is parliamentary constituency for Westminster purposes—so very strong. I represent them—but they are represented by my Strangford colleague in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Greg Mulholland: I think the hon. Lady must be the They are sometimes uncertain to which constituency only person in the Chamber who could possibly regard they owe their loyalty and to whom they should go with what I have said as a contradiction. I will tell the their problems and difficulties. A level of confusion Committee who is inconvenienced by the boundary among the electorate is created. I think that is unhelpful changes: it is the voters of this country, as well as if we want to get people more connected with politics, Members of Parliament. There are constituents in this which is what will ultimately improve registration. country who have been in four different constituencies in recent times. They simply do not know what Greg Mulholland: The hon. Lady reminds us that parliamentary seat they are in, who their MP is or even there are indeed many complications stemming from who they will be allowed to support at the next election. devolution in the three affected nations. As an English MP, however, my concern with devolution is that there John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is is not yet a satisfactory solution for the English people making the sensible case for equalisation rather than at this stage—something for which I shall continue to the illogical case for it. Does he agree that if such a push. profound change were to take place and if it were the view of Parliament, it would be right and proper to Whenever boundary changes are made or proposed, bring the measure in over a longer and more considered we see the disfranchisement of possibly hundreds of period of time, not least because the Government’s thousands of people. It results in two classes among the proposal is not for an equalisation but for an equalisation electorate. The first class comprises the people who can plus or minus 5%? Thus a degree of discretion will be vote for someone again after the boundary changes are allowed, which is potentially arbitrary.It could be countered made; but then there are people in limbo in certain even on the principle of equalisation if there were the parts of our constituencies. We were their Member of ability to have public inquiries and hearings based on Parliament leading up to the last election, but we knew the principle that the hon. Gentleman is advocating. and they knew that they could not vote for us. They could no longer realistically hold us to account. They could Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his not realistically expect us to knock on their doors—again intervention, but let me make it clear again that I because they knew and we knew that they could not support the principle of having more equal constituencies. vote for us. They did not know who their candidates Indeed, we need to move towards such a system that would be in the general election. That is chaos; it should recognises, as the hon. Member for Epping Forest not happen more frequently than once every 10 years. (Mrs Laing) said, that populations change. Clearly, that The idea of making boundary changes for every election has to be recognised; it is why we have boundary changes is simply ridiculous. I hope that that point will be taken now. It is also fair to say that those boundaries changes seriously on Report and in the other place. might be too infrequent and based on out-of-date data. However, that is an argument for having boundary Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): Some Members changes every 10 years so that we have the same boundary may not be aware of the knock-on effects on constituencies. at least for two consecutive general elections. Having The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) suggested different boundaries for every single general election is, that there might be marginal changes in subsequent frankly, absurd and would lead to utter electoral chaos. boundary reviews. In fact, an urban extension might have an initial effect on the constituency involved and Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): The problem subsequent knock-on effects on others, and the change at the first redrawing would be one of the massive might be more radical each time a boundary was subjected reconstruction of the whole country. With the second, to a review. third and subsequent redrawings, if there is such a word, there would be only marginal changes. Greg Mulholland: My hon. Friend has made a good Greg Mulholland: Indeed, but the hon. Gentleman point. I am amazed that the reality of boundary changes makes my point because that huge initial change should is being accepted by so few Members, despite the effects not be rushed through, certainly not a mere five years that it will have on their constituents. after new constituency boundaries have been formed. As Members who served before the last general election He knows—I have said this to him in person—that I know all too well, there is also a huge problem with support his particular campaign for his area and his parliamentary protocol, which causes all sorts of squabbles constituency to remain as one. He provides living proof and spats. According to the democratic process, I, as a of one of the very caveats I agree with to the principle candidate, had every right to knock on doors in the bits of more equal constituencies, which I generally support. of the constituencies next to mine where I would be asking people to vote for me; yet, theoretically, Naomi Long: Another issue that has not been discussed parliamentary protocol says that I should not do so. I in relation to changing boundaries more regularly is am afraid that such matters have simply not been that the elections for this Parliament are out of sync considered. 885 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 886 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Is not the reason record as mine. I will advance no argument for an why so many Government Members seem to have failed English Parliament, now or at any other time. What I to notice that the Bill will have an enormous impact not was saying to the hon. Gentleman was that if many just on seats in areas like mine in Wales—which will pay people came to live in his constituency—as he has just a heavy price—but on seats throughout England that said that they might, because it is such a desirable they are being reassured by their Front Benchers that place—the population would rise considerably, and it this is gerrymandering that will strip out Labour Members would need more than one Member of Parliament in but not have a detrimental effect on Tory seats? The order to have equal representation in the House. reality is very different. As the hon. Gentleman says, there will be an impact on every Member’s seat. Greg Mulholland: I am starting to worry that my acting as a tourism officer for Leeds North West may Greg Mulholland: I take issue with the sentiment attract an undue influx of people to the constituency. I expressed by the hon. Gentleman. We must stop this think a few would be good for the local economy, but if being a partisan, party political matter. We are talking there is such an influx I will come back to the House about electoral, constitutional and parliamentary changes. and explain that we do have a real problem. They should be taken very seriously, and every Member should speak on that basis and that basis alone. 8.45 pm Pete Wishart: We are getting to the heart of the It is rather odd that the hon. Lady should make that debate now. This is what it is all about. As the hon. point given that I have already said that I support the Gentleman has said, there is an in-built Labour advantage principle of more equal constituencies, which she agrees in the current arrangements, and the coalition are trying with, and that it should be done on a sensible and to deal with it. I am not in favour of retaining a Labour regular basis. I think that that sensible and regular basis advantage in elections, because my party is at a disadvantage. should be every 10 years—at every other general election, Why is the hon. Gentleman in favour of that? rather than every election. That seems to me to be so Greg Mulholland: It sounds to me as though the hon. commonsensical that I fail to understand why someone Gentleman is thinking of his self-interest. My point is with as much common sense as the hon. Lady does not that that should not be the principle of changes of this support it. I can only suggest that perhaps some of the nature. It should not be the approach of any party in rather less kind comments from certain Members might the House or any individual hon. Member. I am explain in part why other Members do or do not support disappointed that the hon. Gentleman thinks in those this proposal. Indeed, the hon. Member for Perth and terms when it comes to such a major change. North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was at least honest about supporting it for the entirely self-interested reason Geraint Davies: May I extend the hon. Gentleman’s that he hopes the Scottish National party will gain in point a little? Does he accept that in the event of representation as against the Labour party. gradual migration from the north of England to the I support many proposals in the Bill, and I support south—for reasons connected with jobs, for instance—there the principle of sensible, more equal constituencies, but may be dramatic and ongoing changes as each constituency we should not be enforcing yet another boundary change— in the south becomes more populated, while those in with all the ensuing chaos, cost and confusion both in the north become less populated? If we change the Parliament and outside—before the next general election. boundaries every five years, there may be enormous That change should come in after the next election, and shifts. we should have a review every 10 years, or for every The hon. Gentleman made an eloquent point about other election. whether Members were familiar with their own constituents. This proposal would lead to a shambolic effect on the Geraint Davies: Amendment 125 suggests that instead association between Members and the stable populations of using the register of voters for calculating the relative that they represented. size of constituencies, we should use the best estimate of eligible voters, so that each MP represents the same Greg Mulholland: If the hon. Gentleman visited my number of people who are eligible to vote, not the same constituency, he would understand why people not only number of people who happen to have registered. I would not want to leave but would want to move there propose that because of the demographic bias in respect in great numbers. [Interruption.] From a sedentary of the categories of people who are more or less likely position, the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) to register, and my contention is that all those people asks whether we do not need two Members of Parliament. have the right to vote. They may at some point register if Perhaps she is making the case for an English Parliament. there are better registration systems, and they should As I have said, the English question with regard to not be denied a proportionate voice. I also contend that devolution certainly needs attention. those Members, particularly on the Government Benches, who have argued that there is a systematic bias in favour Mrs Laing: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of the Labour party because the average number of registered voters in Labour seats is less than the average Greg Mulholland: I am willing to do so, although I number in Conservative seats miss the point that that suspect that you may not allow it, Mr Bayley. It is up to bias does not exist when account is taken of the number you to decide whether it is in order. of eligible voters—those aged over 18. Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much I do not intend to run through a comprehensive list, for giving way a third time. I had no intention of although I have been provided with figures from the interrupting him at this point, but as he has put words Library. I pointed out earlier that in Bradford West into my mouth, I must ensure that they are not on the there are 77,848 people over 18, yet only 62,519 are 887 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 888 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Geraint Davies] Mrs Laing: We have been having the argument about registration across the Floor of the House for many registered. In Holborn and St Pancras in London, there years. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the individual are 119,000 people aged over 18 and the number on the has to take a certain amount of personal responsibility electorate is 86,000, and the electorate as a proportion in registering to vote, especially when individual voter of the 18-plus population is just 73%. registration is introduced—a measure brought in by his To summarise, the top line of my argument is that we Government, with the support of the then Conservative must have the right basis for doing the calculation Opposition? Does he agree that there is an element of before we have a big argument about whether we should personal responsibility, that sometimes people do not then apply other criteria, such as community and geography. register to vote because they choose not to do so, and We should establish fairly and squarely the basis of the that they therefore choose to lose their vote, for whatever argument put by the Government, and decide who we reason? should be counting. I say that we should be counting those who are eligible to vote. Geraint Davies: Clearly, we all want to encourage individual responsibility, and I think that there is an individual responsibility to try to register to vote. However, Greg Hands: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s there is a propensity for certain categories of people not argument, I think, but does he think that there is an to vote because it is more difficult for them to do so. easy way that can be picked up in his amendment to tell Examples include the one in five people in Britain who the difference between a set of electors—say, US citizens is functionally illiterate and finds it very difficult to fill living in the constituency that he just named—who are in forms. And what about people who do not speak not able to vote under any circumstances, and those English very well? who would be able to vote but are simply not registered? We are about to move to the next stage, which is individual registration as opposed to household registration, Geraint Davies: I should certainly like to help the and that will have a dramatic impact, particularly on hon. Gentleman on that point. What the amendment ethnic communities, where there may be a lead member actually says is that we should use figures by the Office of the household who is the only person in the household for National Statistics for who is estimated who can speak English; in such cases, we may start off “to be eligible to vote in United Kingdom parliamentary elections”. with five votes and get one. Some people might say, “It’s their fault; they should learn English,” and all the rest Obviously, the question is how the ONS would make of it, but our law is that an eligible voter is an eligible that estimate. The answer is by using a combination of voter, whether they are educated or not. the register of electors, the census and other data forms. Through the amendment, I am saying that the boundaries As has already been pointed out and as we all know should be drawn on the basis of eligible voters. Parallel by now, there is a systematic bias against the registration to that, we want more registration, because the people of certain categories of people—ethnic communities, who can vote are those who are registered. The point is people in private rented accommodation, 17 to 24-year-olds that Parliament should represent the people. Poorer and, generally, those in poorer areas. Those poorer people should not be less well represented because they areas tend to be more likely to be represented by Labour do not register as a result of failures in the education MPs. That explains the difference in the average figures system, or for a host of other reasons. for registration. The problem that I have with the current thrust towards quickly redrawing the boundaries on the basis of registered voters is that clearly there will be a John Mann: My hon. Friend is making a compelling bias in that, so people from poorer communities will be case. Of course, in coalfield communities, in particular, under-represented. That is not effective or fair democracy. significant numbers left school aged 15 without the school being the slightest bit bothered whether they could read or write. The problem is exacerbated among Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Is my those who are elderly and have, for example, eyesight hon. Friend as surprised as I was by the fact that the problems. Among those with low literacy and eyesight Government do not seem committed to putting in extra problems, registration is therefore below the norm. Does resources in the lead-up to December to gain the count he also agree that certain categories of people are that they seek for the new constituency boundaries? over-registered? Students, for example, can be registered in two places—once by their parents and once by a Geraint Davies: That is unfortunate and surprising. If university authority. That will mean that on 1 December one were cynical about it, one would say that the 2010 they will therefore bias the system even more Conservatives already know that there is a registration against former coalfield communities. bias in favour of people who, demographically, are more likely to vote for them, so why should they take Geraint Davies: My hon. Friend makes a compelling the action that my hon. Friend suggests? I introduced point. In many cases, the individual who has not been the amendment to say, “Let’s do this on a fair and educated has been born and brought up in a cultural equitable basis.” We want more registration because the system that might not encourage that, and that might people who are registered to vote are the people who are not be their fault. There is obviously individual responsibility allowed to vote. That is a separate issue from the to get educated but, in terms of the bias, it is clearly the relative sizes of constituencies, which should be based case that the more money people have the more educated on the number of people who are eligible to vote. We they and their children tend to be, and the more likely hope that those people will, over time, register to vote they are to be registered. If we consider the system and will ultimately vote. overall, we have clearly moved to a system—[Interruption.] 889 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 890 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Oh, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden of people from mining communities and other communities (Mr Davis) is crossing the Floor on the basis of my that are under-registered, is that we will lose out numerically argument. That is good to see. and that communities will be merged—one valley with another, and with no geographical relationship between Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): On the point them—or that people will have to be in a constituency about individual responsibility, does my hon. Friend with a mountain in the way. In terms of effective agree that there is an individual responsibility on all democracy—devolution was mentioned—an Assembly hon. Members to ensure that every eligible adult gets on boundary might be coincident with a parliamentary to the electoral register and that we have a particular boundary, so that people can come to see me to talk moral responsibility when we consider that somebody about benefits and see the Assembly representative to might be disadvantaged in any way? That very much talk about the health service. Now the boundaries will equates to individual responsibility in this case and it is all be changed and then, every five years, changed shameful that the hon. Member for Epping Forest again. The issue is one of effective democracy. How (Mrs Laing) does not seem to recognise that. does the citizen know who represents them and which institution has a clear mechanism for doing so? These Geraint Davies: I certainly think that more resources things have evolved into place over time and there is a need to be put in. More people need to be registered and risk that by superimposing a one-size-fits-all system to participate in the vote, but it remains the case that as based on the wrong calculus—namely, registered voters we stand—as has been pointed out, not many resources as opposed to eligible voters—we will end up with a have been put into this—there is a systematic bias much less effective democracy. against poorer areas in terms of the number of eligible voters being reflected in the number of registered voters. 9pm If we are going to make this massive change based on a Owen Smith: My hon. Friend mentions devolution. numerical system of one size fits all, that numerical Does he agree that the Bill being railroaded through to system needs to be rooted in the best estimate of eligible try to fix the result of the next election has another voters, not in the number of people who happen to have unintended consequence—on devolution? The Bill makes registered. As we go downstream with individual a radical change in Wales that will shift the balance registration, my fear is that things will get worse and between Westminster and the Assembly. It will be the worse as groups of people who are not very literate and biggest change since devolution was introduced, with a so on fall off the register because they are not being quarter of Welsh MPs losing their seats, and will therefore registered as a household. That will produce more and mean a radical diminution in both the scrutiny of more of a bias. Welsh-related legislation in the House and, potentially, a reduction in the quality of the Executive that hands Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman is being extremely over the block grant to Wales. It is a very important— gallant in giving way, because I have to answer the point made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan The Temporary Chair (Hugh Bayley): Order. I remind Elan Jones), who is sitting on the Bench almost beside the hon. Gentleman that interventions are supposed to him and has just accused me of saying something be quite short. shameful. She is completely wrong and she took my words completely out of context, which is not normal Geraint Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very interesting parliamentary behaviour. I agree with every word that and important point. Wales is a nation of just 3 million she said about individual responsibility resting also on people sitting alongside a larger nation that is 17 times Members of this House to ensure that people are registered. its size. It is completely dependent on the financial Of course we must, and it is wrong of her to call me stream from Westminster to fund the devolved Welsh shameful. Assembly. Historically, the relationship between the number of seats per head in Wales has been different to Geraint Davies: That was a strange intervention on that in England because of the need to keep the Union my speech. The case that one would want to make is together, in harmony, in a situation of great inequality that we have an individual responsibility to register, but between the two neighbours. that we have to be cognisant of the fact that there is a I fear that the haste with which this process is moving bias in the rate of registration among different groups. forward and the tremendous step change that it will With this amendment, which I would like to press to a make to the representation of Wales in Westminster— vote tomorrow—if that is when we have the vote—I am reducing the number of seats by a quarter from 40 to 30— calling for fairness in that sense. will have such a dramatic effect on the people of Wales I should declare an interest. My father, David Thomas that they will be driven into the arms of the nationalists. Morgan Davies, was the secretary of the Boundary There is a danger that we will fracture the United Commission for Wales between 1973 and 1984, so I Kingdom. I am sure this could be part of a Conservative have a particular interest in this area. Historically, it conspiracy, whereby some in the Conservative party was always the case that the start point for drawing think, “Well it is nice to have the Union, but these boundaries was equality in size and populations of people in Wales keep on voting Labour, so wouldn’t it constituency, adjusted for community and natural be better to chop ’em down, cut their money and live geography—rivers, seas and so on—and the needs of with a world where we can guarantee continuous Tory effective democracy. That is why we are where we are in government in England at the expense of an impoverished Wales, for example, which stands, as has been pointed Wales that is split between Labour and the nationalists, out, to lose a quarter of its elected representatives—the who will then be thrown the right to raise their own number will go from 40 down to 30. The real fear, as taxes on a tax base that is a third poorer?” That is the well as the points that I have made about the proportion sort of grand plan that seems to be emerging. It is very 891 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 892 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Geraint Davies] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Member believe that the registration forms are concerning that the haste and nature of the changes we too complex and need to be simplified to encourage are considering are such that they will risk and provoke more people, especially from poorer backgrounds, to rips in the fabric of the United Kingdom. That is register to vote? absolutely terrible. Geraint Davies: Yes, I certainly do. Obviously there Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend makes a very persuasive are issues about literacy—about being able to read— case. Do the measures in the Bill not suggest that there language, and style. We have all seen forms produced by is no real feel for the fabric of the United Kingdom bureaucracies that are long, complicated and intimidating from the Government and that the interrelationship when they need to be catchy. If one wanted to persuade between Wales, the Duchy of Cornwall, the Isle of someone to subscribe to Sky television, one would not Wight and many of the Scottish islands is not felt by use an electoral registration form. I do not mean that them? Their desperate desire to ram the Bill through is completely as a joke; it is true. To capture someone’s incorrect. attention, it is necessary to make them interested and make it easy, and ensure that there is a follow-up Geraint Davies: Yes— system; but electoral registration systems are not focused in that way. There are limited resources, and some The Temporary Chair: Order. We are straying rather people may say, “We have sent a form through. What far from the point that we are supposed to be debating—the more can we do?” A lot more could be done if we were registration and under-registration of voters and the serious. The worry is that people are not serious. relevant group of amendments. Hon. Members should confine themselves to debating those matters. Mr Love: If we were to take the Government’s intentions seriously, would they not be building on the Political Geraint Davies: Thank you very much, Mr. Bayley. Parties and Elections Act 2009 in strengthening the The amendment is about the relationship between the Electoral Commission and the work of electoral registration number of people registered and the number of people officers and giving more resources to ensure that we can who are eligible to vote. If, in the comprehensive spending take those constituencies with 73% registration up to at review tomorrow, there is a particular focus on poorer least the average for the whole country? people and people in public service—in Wales, 24% are in public services and in England 20%; in Swansea, in Geraint Davies: That is precisely right. The failure to fact, it is 38%—those people will suffer. People in public provide the necessary resources and the fact that the service tend to be poorer, and because they are poor, deadline is the end of December show that the Government they tend to be under-registered. Those people who will have no interest in doing that. Even with the best will in face the real sharpness of the Conservative axe will the the world, which they do not have, there would still be next day be denied the chance to vote against it because substantial under-representation in various constituencies their constituencies will be smaller and because they are for the reasons that have been suggested—the forms are less likely to be registered—unless my amendment is wrong, the language is difficult, and so on. As has been agreed to ensure that people who are poor, and who are said, some people think they might get caught for the more likely to be unregistered, have an equal right to a poll tax. They are still living in the past, when people share of a constituency, by virtue of being an eligible fell off the register through fear. voter. The way to short-circuit those problems and move That is part of the mix of what seems, from the Welsh forward to a new mandate on a more equal basis must perspective at least, to be doing down Wales—attacking surely be to count the people who are eligible to vote, or Wales financially, attacking Wales by reducing to get the best estimate. That might not be perfect, but it representation, attacking the poorest communities, attacking would be a great deal better and fairer than the current public services. In that political and economic context, system. what has understandably been seen locally as constitutional gerrymandering is in danger of ripping open the Union Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): and having dramatic effects on our historical future. My hon. Friend makes a persuasive case for his amendment. That may all be clinically predicted but it is very unfortunate. Does he agree that the Government have acknowledged As I pointed out, the 3.5 million or so unregistered part of his case with their announcement last month voters are not evenly distributed. We heard from the about data-sharing pilots? They acknowledged—the Conservative Front Bench that, apparently, we are doing Minister nods—that there is an issue of other data very well because in Britain, some 92% of people are sources being available to authorities. Might that be a registered. We are told that we should pat ourselves on way in which the proposal in my hon. Friend’s amendment the back and need not make any changes, but we could be constructed—by using some of those other know that registration is thoroughly disproportionately data registers to ensure a much more accurate list of distributed, and in some areas it may be as low as 70%. adults living in an area, rather than moving rapidly to To pre-empt the arguments against the amendment, we boundary changes, as proposed in the Bill? also know that the census comes around only once in a while. I am arguing that we should assemble a portfolio Geraint Davies: That is right. The amendment proposes of data, including the census returns, registration figures that the estimates should be put together by the Office and other data sources, to give our best estimate of the for National Statistics. I hope it would use a range of number of eligible over 18-year-olds in each area. That data sources, and if the Government plan any initiatives would be much more representative than the number of to enrich the data, that would be welcome. If a sudden registered voters. change is made to all the boundaries with a view to 893 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 894 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill changing the composition, possibly for the next general I mentioned the margin of error in order to contrast election, let us get it right. In order to do what my hon. it with the proposal in my amendment, which would Friend suggests, which I entirely agree with, the necessary give the Boundary Commission some discretion over time must be allowed. how it interpreted the rule. In other words, the commission I am a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee. We would be able to take into account the distinction had the great joy of hearing expert witnesses from the between, as the amendment itself describes, the potential Electoral Commission and the administrators, and from electorate, bearing in mind the variability of registration the Minister. What was fed back from the practitioners throughout the country, and the actual electors on the was that given the resource and the time available, it electoral roll. The amendment prises open the issue that would be difficult to administrate the changes, in particular several Members have already teased out in today’s for the administrators of the election. The commission debate and, therefore, questions whether the 5% margin has been given an extra £1.9 million to drive ahead, of error might in fact reflect a larger margin of error in although there are only 3 million people living in Wales. the registration of electors in each constituency. That is an enormous cost to railroad the provisions The Boundary Commission has not been given sufficient through. The administrators of the electoral areas thought leeway to take account of that variability, and, as others the results would be chaotic. In terms of effective have already pointed out, the Electoral Commission democracy, which is what we are about, as well as studied the issue earlier this year. It produced a report inherent fairness, the speed and nature of the change entitled, “The completeness and accuracy of electoral are wrong. registers in Great Britain, March 2010”, and I shall I will conclude now as I know that Members want to quote from the document’s key findings. It states: move on. In essence, I am arguing that a more sophisticated, “national datasets and local case study research suggest there may accurate and fairer way of counting voters to provide be widening local and regional variations in registration levels. the best estimate of the number of people eligible to While there is no straightforward relationship between population vote is the best way to sustain credibility and confidence density and the state of local registers, the lowest rates of completeness in our democracy in future. I urge hon. Members to and accuracy were found in the…most densely populated…areas” support the amendment when it is put to the vote. and among “the most mobile populations”. The report continues: Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a pleasure to “Recent social, economic and political changes appear to have follow the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint resulted in a declining motivation to register”, Davies), who covered all aspects of the potential and it goes on to state: interpretation of his amendment. “Under-registration and inaccuracy are closely associated with I give notice that I may seek to press amendment 70 the social groups most likely to move home.” to a Division. It achieves much the same as the hon. Gentleman seeks to achieve. The Bill proposes to put a Across the case study areas, it found, as the hon. Member straitjacket around the Boundary Commission in its for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said earlier, that interpretation of the role of divvying up the nation, or “under-registration is notably higher than average among 17-24 year the nations, to deliver so-called equal seats, but the olds (56% not registered), private sector tenants (49%) and black amendment takes into account the variability in registration and minority ethnic British residents (31%).” around the country. It is a good idea to start from the It also found that during the year the rate of completeness fundamental premise that we are trying our utmost to is likely to decline by about 10 percentage points. achieve, if at all possible, a strong sense of equality throughout all seats in terms of their electorates. However, Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I thank the hon. the 5 to 10% margin might create a straitjacket that Gentleman for that list of people who are under-represented does not allow as my amendment would, for the or not registered. Does he agree that the categories he discretion to— has outlined, although unregistered, often form the majority of an MP’s caseload, and that that huge impact on their workload should be recognised by the Boundary 9.15 pm Commission? The Temporary Chair: Order. This debate is about the question of registration or under-registration and the Andrew George: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. hon. Gentleman’s amendment 70 focuses on that very I argue further that any Member of Parliament who directly. As we are taking amendments at this stage, he does their job properly should be seeking out those needs to confine his remarks to the question of registration silent voices rather than waiting for them to come to or under-registration. them. MPs should recognise that people who are not registering are probably not articulating themselves in Andrew George: I am grateful to you, Mr Bayley, for other ways, so they should be finding ways of ensuring your guidance. As you will notice, my amendment states: that their needs are properly articulated. “This rule is subject to an independent assessment of the Boundary Commission as to the potential electorate within any Mark Tami: Some local authorities are clearly better area where the Commission, having consulted— than others at raising registration levels. Does the hon. the Electoral Commission, Gentleman agree that we should learn from those that (b) the Registration Officer of the local authority or authorities are achieving much higher levels of registration? Some in that area, have improved from quite low levels, whereas others are (c) such other organisations and individuals whom the Boundary more interested in doing the absolute minimum just to Commission may choose to consult”. say, “Well, we have done what we are required to do.” 895 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 896 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Andrew George: I agree. It may be a function of a Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for change of staff or of the resources of the local authority clarifying that point of electoral law, which needs to be and how it goes about its task. Inevitably, in different emphasised. Points have been made about registration parts of the country, the situation will ebb and flow levels—the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather over time. One cannot necessarily say that a place with Wheeler) said that registration levels of 98 or 99% had high levels of registration will always have them—there been achieved in her area. In fact, in constituencies such may well be variations. as mine it is potentially possible to achieve registration levels over 100%. Chris Ruane rose— Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Does Andrew George: I will gave way one more time, but I the hon. Gentleman regard the student vote in the same want to bring my remarks to a close. way?

Chris Ruane: Speaking from experience, Gareth Evans, Andrew George: It is an important case in point. As I the electoral registration officer in Denbighshire in my understand it, students can register in more than one constituency, has taken the electorate up from 49,000 to location and decide where their primary residence is for 56,000—a huge percentage increase. That has been achieved the purpose of electoral registration and casting their partly by having a big, bold reminder in the middle of vote. Most university students go to their parental the registration form saying that not registering is an home, for example, when they are not at university, and offence punishable by a £1,000 fine. At the end of the they spend about half the year in each place. The point process, the chief executive sends out letters to those therefore becomes moot. who are unregistered saying, “I am now turning this John Mann: The vast majority of first-year students over to my legal department for you to be prosecuted.” are registered where they were living with their parents, That ability to prosecute, which is a powerful tool in and if they are living in a hall of residence they are forcing people to register, is going to be removed by the simultaneously registered by the university authority, hon. Gentleman’s Front Benchers, as was outlined a few often without their knowledge. They are entitled to vote weeks ago. What does he think about that? in either place, but is not the salient point in regard to this Bill that they count twice in determining the size of Andrew George: I would be straying beyond the limits the electorate? That will create another artificial and of this debate if I discussed compulsion in registration, arbitrary division based on the date of 1 December. but it could perhaps be debated in relation to other parts of the Bill. Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman has placed his As well as the groups in the community that the point on the record, and I wish to move on. independent Electoral Commission found were under- My primary point is that the margin of error in the represented, my hon. Friend the Member for North registration level is significantly greater in certain areas. Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) and I, and many other hon. Registration can be as low as 80%, but I would argue Members—the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) that in some areas, perhaps those with high numbers of referred to this—represent parts of the country where students or second homes, it could potentially be more there are large numbers of second homes. Those part-time than 100%. With such margins of error, the straitjacket residents often like to ensure that they are on the of a 5% margin of error in the Bill is inappropriate. electoral register. Given the relative weight of the significance and marginality of the two, or possibly three or more, Mr Love: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? seats in which they have their votes, one suspects that in Andrew George: I will not any more. some cases—of course, this should not happen—they might decide where they might most effectively cast that The Boundary Commission should be given discretion vote, if indeed they cast it only once. There are questions over the matter, because the Bill as currently drafted about whether they should register to vote in the first would unquestionably result in young, vulnerable and place, which of course they are entitled to do for local minority ethnic communities being under-represented authority elections. Strictly speaking, they should not and second home owners and students being over- cast a vote in the general election because they are not represented. We all want equality, but we want it interpreted in their primary residence. reasonably. Graham Stringer: The hon. Member for Leeds North Dan Rogerson: My hon. Friend has a long record of West (Greg Mulholland) made some general, profound pointing out anomalies with regard to second homes, comments on the threat behind the Bill to the effect that and he knows that I had a meeting about that last week it will destroy the accountability link between hon. with the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the Members and their electorate by ensuring that Members hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is never stand again for the same constituency. If he not in his place. It is felt keenly in my constituency by presses his amendment to a Division, I will happily join people who stood in local authority elections—independents him in the Lobby. The electorate has an absolute right as well as party members—that second home ownership to vote to support a Member of Parliament who has in an area can be influential in determining results. If done a good job, just as it has the absolute right to someone is not normally resident in a place, they should throw a rascal out. not be on the register there. The problem is that local authority officers may not have had the point reinforced Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his to them that they have the power to prevent people from comments. Does he think I should seek to divide the getting on the register if they cannot prove that they are Committee on amendment 342, which would mean a normally resident in the area. It is not about whether report every 10 years, or amendment 341, which would they own a property there. delay the changes until after the election? 897 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 898 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Graham Stringer: I would be happy to vote for the register, so that 8 million people—including the amendments 341 and 342. Although the mechanisms most vulnerable in society—could be missing from the would be different, the proposals would have an essentially register. Does my hon. Friend agree that that constitutes similar affect on accountability. a very little English coup?

Mr Dodds: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Graham Stringer: I would not use the word “coup”, there would be support from the Democratic Unionist but I would use the word “gerrymandering”. In fact, a party and, I am sure, from other parties, if the hon. double gerrymander lies at the heart of this Bill. I Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) were would like the Electoral Commission to look at the to press those amendments to a Division? As he said, issue of registration and report to both Houses, because there is a lack of consensus or cross-party support for there are sins of commission and sins of omission those fundamental changes to parliamentary democracy. involved in why the electoral register is not complete. It has already been said that some electoral registration Graham Stringer: The right hon. Gentleman makes officers are more effective and efficient than others, and his point well and I am sure the hon. Member for Leeds that is true. I represent areas of Manchester and Salford, North West (Greg Mulholland) heard him. and the electoral registration and returning officers there are doing a good job. They have done three I shall speak to amendment 38, which is in my name. canvasses and use what data they may legally access to With permission, Mr Bayley, I should also like to press ensure that electoral registration is as complete as possible. it a Division. Other than what I said on amendments 341 But that is not the case in several constituencies. and 342, arguments about the number of people on the electoral register lie behind this debate. One argument Geraint Davies: My hon. Friend may be interested to that was touched on earlier is bogus, and it should be note that the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old discounted: namely, that the number of electors that it Southwark (Simon Hughes) is now in his place. In his takes to elect a Member from one political party is constituency, the register contains 77,628 people, so it is different from the number it takes to elect a Member for on target, but the population of those over 18 and another party. That is irrelevant to this debate. Turnout, eligible to vote is 101,000. In other words, 26,000 people the number of candidates and the distribution of electors will not be counted, and that is wrong. However, Members also affect the number of people it takes to elect a on the other side of the House, including the hon. Member for a political party. If people want a kind of Gentleman, will sleepwalk into this ridiculously unfair representation that means that it takes exactly the same system. number of people to elect each MP, the answer is PR. I am against that and in favour of first past the post. Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend makes a good However, that is nothing to do with the clause. point about the numbers— The second point at the heart of clause 8 is that Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab) rose— constituencies should be based on an equal number of registered electors. That is a reasonable starting point, Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) but there are two exceptions—one is relevant to this (LD) rose— clause and the other will be debated later. If people are to represent constituencies, geographical features, Graham Stringer: Unfortunately, I think that my hon. boundaries and real communities should be significant Friend may have encouraged the hon. Member for considerations, as well as absolute numbers. However, Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) to how can the Committee say that absolute numbers is attempt to intervene. I give way to my hon. Friend the the overwhelmingly relevant consideration and accept Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound). that change to the system when 3.5 million people are not on the electoral register? Stephen Pound: I think that the House is at one with my hon. Friend on that particular point—[Laughter.] In amendment 38, I am seeking, in a different way from the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), to Like me, my hon. Friend represents an urban address voter registration. He is trying to get the Boundary constituency. I have three surgeries a week and more Commission to assess the difference between those who than 50% of those who attend are not on the electoral are registered and those who are not. The point of my register because they are homeless, asylum seekers or amendment is to get the Electoral Commission, which simply incapable of being allowed to register. Does my is the more appropriate body, to try to satisfy this hon. Friend agree that were we to proceed—as I sincerely House and the other place that enough changes and hope we will not—with this crude numerically simplistic processes have taken place to ensure that as many stitch-up we would be ignoring the reality of life in people as practically possible are registered. Once that urban constituencies? has been done, but not before, the figures can be taken Graham Stringer: I agree with my hon. Friend and I into account when considering boundaries. have similar experiences in Blackley and Broughton. Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend says that 3.5 million Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am people are missing from the register, but the Government puzzled that the hon. Gentleman agrees with the suggestion announced the other week that they will introduce that a Member of Parliament who knows that 50% of individual registration and remove some of the measures those attending his surgeries are not registered does that could help us to increase registration. When individual nothing about it. Why does he not point out to the registration was introduced in Northern Ireland, there people who attend his surgeries but fail to be on the was a 10% drop in registration. If it is introduced on the register that they are breaking the law? If the issue is as mainland, that could mean 4.5 million people fewer on simple as that, something can be done about it. 899 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 900 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Graham Stringer: As far as I can see, the hon. Gentleman Another large area where there is under-representation has not been in the Chamber for most of the debate. I and, probably, unlawful activity associated with it relates ask him to listen carefully to this and the next part of to houses in multiple occupation and private landlords. my speech. There are reasons why some people are not For different reasons—sometimes voting abuse, sometimes on the electoral register, but I can assure him that I to conceal the number of people living in houses of check whether people live in the constituency and/or are multiple occupation—landlords prevent their tenants on the electoral register, and if they are not, I try to from voting or hinder their attempts to do so. persuade them to get on to it. The hon. Gentleman previously mentioned recent I was coming to the reasons some people are off the immigrants. Registration is low among those in black electoral register. It is not just a result of how well the and ethnic minority groups for a number of reasons. registration officer does his job. Among poorer people, Sometimes it is because they do not understand the the number of people on the electoral register in Manchester system or are frightened of it, and sometimes, as was declined by about 15% when the poll tax was brought mentioned previously in the case of poorer sections of in, because it was the single easiest way of avoiding tax. the community, it is because the levels of functional It has been 20 years since the poll tax was introduced, illiteracy are higher than one would want. That means but the position has never recovered. I could take hon. that many of the forms end up in the bin, because they Members to an estate in my constituency where nearly cannot be understood. There are different estimates, 60% of people on the electoral register are women. That but generally in this House—and not just on the issue of is not because the estate is not roughly 50:50, but electoral registration—we ignore the fact that probably because the men living there do not register so as to get about 22.5% of the adult population in this country are 25% off their council tax. It will take time to address functionally illiterate and find it difficult to deal with that situation of people avoiding both tax and being on forms. the electoral register. It is not an easy problem, but it should be dealt with. 9.45 pm Those are the main reasons there are real practical Mrs Laing: If somebody lives in a house and is difficulties—there are probably more difficulties than I partaking of the services provided by the local authority, have mentioned, as well as those to do with the efficiency and it is known that they live in that house, and they do of the electoral registration officers—and why 3.5 million not register in order not to pay tax, they are not people are currently not on the electoral register. I do avoiding tax—they are evading tax. Is the hon. Gentleman not think that we can move to a more balanced system saying that it is up to someone else to register them to between the different constituencies—one based on the vote? number of electors—until we ensure that registration is much more accurate than it currently is. Graham Stringer: I agree. The accurate word is “evading” not “avoiding”. I stand corrected. If people are evading Gavin Barwell: The group of amendments that the tax, and therefore breaking the law, one cannot expect Committee is being asked to consider poses the Government them to change. It is up to those bodies that enforce the three questions: what is the rush, why have a review law to enforce it. I am happy to clarify that position. every five years, and do we not need to address the issue Getting the electoral register to represent everyone who of under-registration? I want briefly to address those is entitled to vote is not a simple process. However, I am three questions. sure that hon. Members believe, as I do, that people Before I do so, however, I want to make a point about should be registered and should comply with the law on partisanship. It is important to reflect the fact that any being registered. discussion about the boundaries of our constituencies is bound to have partisan considerations, and it is much Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I thank better that we should acknowledge that up front, rather the hon. Gentleman for giving way with his customary than trying to pretend otherwise. I believe that the generosity, but he fails to recognise that there has to be current boundaries are unfair, for reasons that I will a definitive basis for registering those qualified to vote come to. They are unfair to the Conservative party, but in an election and for distinguishing between them and I also believe that they are unfair to my constituents—the others who live in the area and are served by a Member people of Croydon, who are under-represented in this of Parliament. He might inadvertently be leading the House. However, to make the point that this issue is House in that direction. In my constituency, there are about political balance, I should make the related point 70,000 electors, but nearly 78,000 residents—the rest that the local authority ward boundaries in my borough are mainly EU migrants. As a constituency Member of are also unfair, but they are unfair the other way round. Parliament, I will serve those people, but there is a distinction between them and those who are duly, properly The Temporary Chair (Hugh Bayley): Order. I must and legally entitled to vote for me at an election. He is encourage the hon. Gentleman to get on to the question not making that distinction clear to the Committee. of registration and under-registration. He has made his opening remarks, and he should now address the questions Graham Stringer: I have not come to that point yet, raised by the amendment. but there is an overlap. Some recent immigrants are Commonwealth citizens and entitled to vote in general Gavin Barwell: I take your point, Mr Bayley, but elections. It is a complicated matter. The hon. Gentleman some of the amendments in the group are also about makes a fair point, but there is some overlap between the need for speed and whether the proposals in the Bill people who are entitled to vote and people who are part should take effect by October 2013. The point that I was of the recent immigrant community. trying to make in an earlier intervention is that the 901 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 902 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill average size of Labour seats is significantly smaller than vote for their Member of Parliament. Bizarrely, even those of Conservative Members. That is an unfairness though those people will surely come to their Member and it is important to correct it, but I shall take your of Parliament for advice and assistance, they will not advice and come on to the issue of registration. count when it comes to classifying the size of a parliamentary constituency. Surely that cannot be right. Chris Ruane: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Gavin Barwell: Well, there we go. The hon. Gentleman Gavin Barwell: I am nervous about being drawn back is suggesting, with his customary eloquence, that we go into what I have just been told to move off, but I will even further than the hon. Member for Swansea West give way briefly. did. I think he is arguing that we should use the whole over-18 adult population as the basis for deciding the Chris Ruane: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the boundaries. Indeed, in an earlier intervention, he said information I have received from research by the Library that he had a significant number of asylum seekers in shows that of the top 100 seats with the most number of his constituency who, although they were ineligible to unregistered people, 96 are Labour seats? Should it not vote, still gave rise to casework. be borne in mind, when he is pointing out unfairness There are many different proposals for ways in which this way and that way, that those unregistered people we can develop these figures. My point about the hon. are in Labour seats? Member for Swansea West’s amendment is that we cannot come up with a definitive figure. We can start Chris Ruane: I think that that is a question about with the census and take into account the electorate, registration, so I can certainly address it. It has always and we can then use other data sets to refine that been the case historically that, in deciding on constituency information, but we cannot come up with an accurate boundaries, we have looked at the number of people figure. who are eligible to vote; that is, we have looked at My own view is that we should stick with the current electorates as the basis on which to draw the boundaries. basis, which looks at the published electorate, but that Opposition Members have raised the issue of registration we should also take action to deal with under-representation, in this debate, with some amendments asking for a which affects certain parts of the country more than report on the issue and others going further, making the others. The hon. Member for Swansea West talked radical proposition that we should look at the number about poverty, and the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew of adults who are eligible to register in a constituency George), who has now left the Chamber, referred to when drawing up the boundaries. work carried out by the Electoral Commission that That may well be a debate of principle that we need showed that the transience of the population—the churn— to have at some point, but it seems to me that the was the key factor. There are certain groups within the arguments of Opposition Members have varied and population, including the black and minority ethnic have been based on a number of different potential community, young people and people who live in the categories. We could look at electors, the number of private rented sector, that are much more likely to move people over 18 who are eligible to vote, or the total frequently, and that is the main causal driver of this adult population over 18, but when the hon. Member problem. for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) was quoting his figures earlier, I think he was actually quoting the Mr Stewart Jackson: Does my hon. Friend agree that figures for the adult population over 18. I do not know the difficulty in the past 15 or 20 years has been that the any data sets that can give an accurate figure for the Boundary Commission has not been guided by Government number of people over 18 who are eligible to vote, regulations specifically to look at future population which is an entirely different thing, because there will be changes? That has been an important factor in making many people who are not UK citizens—and who are many, if not most, of the constituencies in this country therefore not eligible to vote—but who will appear on out of date almost as soon as they are created. the census. Or we could go even further and look at the total population in each part of the country when Gavin Barwell: That cuts to the point of one of the drawing up boundaries. amendments, which deals with the frequency with which My real concern is that the amendments before us we carry out the reviews. That is an important point, suggest that we should draw up constituency boundaries because if we had more regular reviews, they would be based on a guess. They suggest that we look at the based on more recent data, and we would not see such census data, but many Members—particularly those dramatic changes. If we had a review every five years, who represent urban constituencies—will be aware of we would not see significant changes in many of our the real problems relating to the accuracy of those data. constituencies. The census is carried out only every 10 years, and there are often gross inaccuracies in the published figures, Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? certainly for London. Gavin Barwell: I will give way once more to my Stephen Pound: I apologise for interrupting the hon. predecessor. Gentleman, because he is making a coherent and cogent case. I must point out, however, that there are empirical Geraint Davies: The point I was trying to make, data out there, and that we do not have to rely on which I think has been misrepresented by the new hon. guesswork. As any Member of Parliament will tell him, Member for Croydon Central, is that we should use the his or her constituency roll will show EU and best data available on those people who are 18 and over Commonwealth citizens who can register but cannot and eligible to vote. I have accepted that we will not get 903 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 904 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Geraint Davies] but Labour had secured over 500,000 votes more than the Conservatives. The system then worked in favour of a perfect number, but I propose that we should do the the Conservatives, who at that time were not so adamant best we can with the data sets available to get as accurate about the need for a redistribution and a massive upsetting a picture as possible, and that that is the best basis for a of the whole system to make it fairer. Now they are fair democracy. That would be much fairer than simply adamant. That unfairness towards the Conservatives relying on registration figures. persisted until the 1960s. Now it has worked the other way because of the subsequent drift of large Labour Gavin Barwell: I take that point, but my response majorities out to the suburbs, where the vote is more would be that, rather than using figures that are evenly distributed. guesstimates, we should use the actual electorate figures. These amendments all provide an opportunity to We should also, however, take action across the country modify the brutality of the redistribution that the to replicate the work of the best local authorities to Government propose, with Liberal support, to remedy drive up representation. this deficiency. Clause 8 is effectively creating what I would call a doomsday machine. It is rather like the Chris Ruane rose— monsters my grandchildren watch on television. They are called transformers—they are huge metal monsters Stephen Twigg rose— that go out clumping all around the country. It is a kind of redistribution by Blitzkrieg! It is just like that when Gavin Barwell: I am going to conclude my speech this has to be done so suddenly and in defiance of any now; I have taken a number of interventions, and I community centre or local government boundaries. promised that I would not speak for too long. We have just had a boundary review, for which many Chris Ruane: Why does my hon. Friend think the Opposition Members will have voted, that was based on Con-Dem alliance is in such haste? electorate figures. None of these points about tackling under-representation were made when the orders were Austin Mitchell: Well, it is quite simple. The alliance put through in the last Parliament to implement those wants its redistribution completed before the election in boundary changes. Although the point is a good one, it 2015—it is going to determine the date in another piece was not applied previously. of legislation—because it will favour the Conservative party. It hopes to reduce the number of Labour Members. In conclusion, the people of Croydon are significantly We shall come later to the reduction in the size of the under-represented in this House, and I think we need House, but it is another attempt in the same direction— urgent action to address that unfairness. We certainly intended to reduce the number of Labour Members need to take action to deal with under-registration, but and increase the number of Conservative Members. the current boundaries are not fair, which is why it is The alliance simply wants to give itself a doughty important to take action quickly to put that right. majority. AV is supposed to work for the Liberals and the redistribution is supposed to work for the Conservatives. Austin Mitchell: I rise to speak—briefly, I hope—in That is the calculation behind it, which is why it has to support of amendment 127. I gather from my hon. be completed before the next election, so that it can Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that hang on to power by gerrymandering the system in its we are going to press it to the vote. I also support favour. amendment 341, which I hope the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) is going to put to This is going to be a redistribution by steamroller—not the vote—he must. I support amendment 38, too, tabled a reasonable redistribution in which we will have the by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton power to put opposing points of view, to argue for a (Graham Stringer), which he is going to press to the sense of community or a sense of locality or to put vote. forward views about the crossing of county boundaries. We will not have a chance to put democratic and fair All three amendments are an attempt to soften the arguments to the redistribution committee in the way rigours of the brutal redistribution proposed in clause 8. we have been accustomed to, and the way that has been Indeed, it is a redistribution so brutal that it amounts to institutionalised. The committee will simply plough on a gerrymander. The pretext is that the unequal seats with its Blitzkrieg. work against the Tory party. We have heard that argument put at length by the hon. Member for Croydon Central Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP) rose— (Gavin Barwell). It is true that the inequality in seats helps the Labour party and works against the Tory Austin Mitchell: I was intending to plough on with party, to which I would reply, in the classic words of my own Blitzkrieg, but I am happy to give way. Demosthenes, “Ah, diddums. What a great shame”! Various factors are relevant, including turnout, people taken off the register, which happens all the time— 10 pm [Interruption.] Ah diddums, rural seats and so forth. Mark Durkan: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way Another factor, which has not been dealt with in the following that mixed metaphor. I will take it no further. debate so far, is hat the population moves. Does my hon. Friend agree that what we have here is There was a similar bias in the 1950s, but then it a formula according to which one imperative, and one favoured the Tory party because of rural seats and the imperative alone, will drive what boundary commissions rurality factor. I hope Members will remember—I certainly do, and that what they do will not be subject to serious do; I am old enough to remember—that the Conservative appeal or challenge for the purposes of those of us in party won power in 1951 and had a working majority, the real world who must live with the outcome or 905 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 906 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill consequences? It will ignore the realities and demands the redistribution, and the Liberal Democrats will lose of constituency service. It completely dismisses real-world seats. Their amendments suggest that they are now considerations. We will be stuck with whatever the waking up to that fact. outcome is, and it will go from Parliament to Parliament It is a bit late in the day, but I can tell the Liberal as the Boundary Commission sees fit. Will this not Democrats that they will lose out. The AV part of the constitute the IPSAfication of boundaries? deal, which was supposed to benefit the Liberal Democrats while the redistribution was supposed to benefit the Austin Mitchell: Absolutely. My hon. Friend has put Conservatives, will not be carried, because it will be the case much more articulately and better than I could defeated in the referendum. Then the Liberal Democrats have, so I shall delete the next part of my speech, take it will ask themselves, “What have we got out of this for granted and move on. This is not a redistribution; it coalition? We have abandoned all our faiths, we have is a Blitzkrieg—an unfair Blitzkrieg that is designed to sacrificed everything we believe in, we have allowed work in the electoral interests of the Conservative party. massive cuts to the detriment of British society—and Interestingly, the amendments show that the Liberal what have we got out of it?” The answer will be “Peanuts. Democrat part of the coalition is beginning to wake up Nothing.” Their only resort, if they are to prevent to that fact. I understand that the hon. Member for themselves from being thrown out in the election following Leeds North West intends to put his amendment to the the redistribution, will be to throw out the Government vote. Perhaps he will nod to confirm that, because it will and stop the redistribution. slow down the whole process and stop the Blitzkrieg. I estimate that the Liberal Democrats will belatedly begin to wake up to that fact in about 2013 or 2014, and Chris Bryant: The position is actually slightly worse then they will become a disruptive factor within the than it was portrayed by our friend from the SDLP, the coalition. I am trying to prevent them from ending up in hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). In addition, that situation—[Interruption.] No, my heart bleeds for the Minister will be able to lay the Order in Council on them. I am very sympathetic because it is tragic watching the basis of the Boundary Commission’s report “with them betray their principles one by one in order to cling or without modifications”. [Interruption.] I can hear on to power and to get bums into ministerial cars and the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. on to ministerial Benches—but if that is what they want Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), saying that to do, let them. I am trying to help them by persuading that is the present legislation, but the present legislation them to vote for amendments 127, 341 and 38. allows for proper public inquiries, and he is getting rid [Interruption.] No, I am a decent man. I would have of public inquiries. voted Liberal in 1951, except that I did not have a vote because I was too young, but I wore a Liberal rosette on my meat round. That is the full history of my association Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. with the Liberals—it ended in 1956 with the invasion of The present system of redistribution was devised by the Suez—and now I am trying to protect them. Conservatives. Now, finding themselves in electoral danger, they want to scrap it to protect themselves and remain In conclusion, we should support these amendments in power in this tenuous coalition. in order to prevent the brutality of a process that would be damaging to British democracy and the community and that would create an unsettled situation for Members Mr Stewart Jackson: As ever, the hon. Gentleman is a of Parliament. I spent many years in New Zealand, comic turn. Does he agree, however, that he was not so and we had much more regular redistributions when I voluble when in 1970—as he is old enough to remember—a was there—every five years, I think. That was before Labour Government were the only Government in history proportional representation came in. The seats could be to shelve significant boundary changes for party political made much more equal, but as a result of the changes reasons? He was probably also not as voluble at the time no Member of Parliament knew five years ahead whether of the 2005 election, when the Conservative party out-polled he would be representing the same area, or whether the Labour party in England and Labour had many some bits would be shipped out and others would be dozens more seats than the Conservatives. Was that fair, shipped in because of boundary changes, and therefore or was it gerrymandering? the seat he would be representing would be totally changed. I want to prevent that situation from happening Austin Mitchell: I am not sure whether the hon. here. We represent settled communities that have clear Gentleman is trying to outdo my comic turn by putting boundaries, and we should not disrupt them in this me in the House of Commons well before I was actually fashion just for the electoral purposes of the Conservative here, but he is entitled to do that. party. I am voluble now because of the threat to democracy that is implicit in this whole process. As one of my hon. Mrs Laing: The hon. Member for Great Grimsby Friends said earlier, that is what is waking up the (Austin Mitchell) has just given the game away. He has Liberal Democrat part of the coalition. It is easy enough at last revealed what this part of the debate is really to organise a redistribution for 650 Members, but if about: the convenience of Members of Parliament, and there are only 600 pieces in the jigsaw, the implication is the desire to make sure that they are not unsettled. This that every boundary in the country must be changed. House should not be making laws for the convenience That is what is waking up the Liberal Democrats, of Members of Parliament, however; we should be because they tend to win seats through intense community making laws for the good of the people of the United work and community politics involving cracked paving Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman has made many good stones and late buses, and they must have a community points during the debate, and he has just made an to work to. That settled community will be disturbed by excellent speech, albeit from his point of view—I disagree 907 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 908 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mrs Laing] Mrs Laing: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has brought before the House many matters that have arisen with him of course, but he always makes excellent from people who come to his constituency surgeries, speeches—but I am glad that he gave the game away at but he also has a role in raising points of principle on the end of his contribution. the subject of politics, the constitution and so on—I While sitting through this lengthy debate, I have been have seen him do so over many years—that are nothing wondering why so many Members have made illogical to do with the casework that comes to him. I therefore and inconsequential speeches. That is unusual for Members do not accept his point. of this House—[Interruption]—especially those such as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), Stephen Pound: I thank the hon. Lady for nobly who is laughing, and who has engaged in many debates offering, in a way that is typical of her, to support my on these subjects over many years. Why is nobody special pleading to the Independent Parliamentary talking about individual voter registration, even though Standards Authority for additional staff. Together, we it is an integral part of improving the registration will be unbeatable. May I also apologise for perhaps process? inadvertently misleading the Committee earlier when I referred to Commonwealth citizens not having the right to vote? They do, of course, have that right. I am sure Chris Ruane: I have just mentioned individual registration. that the hon. Lady will have immediately spotted that I We all know what it is about: it is about driving a was referring to European economic area citizens, in the further 4.5 million people off the register to join the context of increased casework with no chance of a vote other 3.5 million, in order to keep the Conservatives in at the end of it. office for another generation. Mrs Laing: Of course the hon. Gentleman is right. Mrs Laing: It is not; on the contrary, in fact. The last First, I do support his special pleading to IPSA. Secondly, Government, with the support of the then Conservative I am glad to have given him the opportunity to put the Opposition, introduced individual voter registration and record straight on the EEA; we are all better educated this Government have speeded up the process. for that. I am not going to take up much of the Committee’s Our duty is not to try to amend the Bill to make life time as we have heard many speeches on these subjects easier for Members of Parliament. What matters is not tonight and I have had the good fortune of being able to our certainty about where the boundaries of our make many interventions in other Members’ contributions. constituencies will be drawn, but how the democratic In counting the number of people who are represented process works. I have thought to myself, “Why have by each Member of Parliament we should count on the there been so many illogical arguments this evening?” I basis of democracy and the workings of democracy, realise, of course, that it is because of special pleading. not on the basis of social work. [Interruption.] Well, we all have several roles as Members of Parliament, and Tristram Hunt: Does the hon. Lady recall, as I do, the one of our roles is the pastoral one of looking after the evidence that we received on the Political and Constitutional people who live in our constituencies regardless of Reform Committee, which suggested that where there whether they are registered to vote, of their nationality, were arbitrary and dramatic changes in boundaries, an and of where they live. We are all decent Members of absence of democracy often followed, as local party Parliament, and if someone comes to us with a problem, activists and local electors began to lose influence and it will be dealt with—or it certainly would be in my interest in the local democratic process? constituency surgeries. I am sure that that is the case for almost everybody here. I see assent from Labour Members. Mrs Laing: I recall the point being raised in the Select However, we must separate those two roles, and that is Committee, but I am afraid that I disagree with the hon. integral to the point that we are discussing. Gentleman on that point. The fact is— The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Will the may have thousands of people in his constituency who hon. Lady give way? are not voters—who are either not eligible or not registered to vote. He therefore possibly has more casework, but Mrs Laing: No. The hon. Gentleman has not been in that can be dealt with by giving him greater resources to Committee all evening, and it is time that we got on; deal with it. The issue should not be dealt with by this debate has taken too long. I would simply say that distorting the democratic process and the way in which the reason why Opposition Members are arguing as the Chamber works. they are is that they cannot in all honesty stand up in this House and say that the principle of equalising the Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady knows that I respect her size of constituencies is wrong. They are therefore views in many regards, but I would find it phenomenally manufacturing arguments against this Bill to try to stop difficult to differentiate the two elements of our role—on this part of it. They are quite simply trying to avoid the one hand, the representative function of a Member being turkeys voting for Christmas. They know that, of Parliament in representing all the voters in their and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby gave this away constituency, and, on the other hand, their casework. when he said that this is about certainty and uncertainty Many, if not all, of the issues that I have taken up in this for Members of Parliament. The fact is that the only House have come to me from my casework—apart, principle that should matter in considering this part of perhaps, from the issue of the Bill that we are discussing the Bill is the working of democracy. If Opposition tonight. I urge her not to stray too far down the route of Members do not have the courage to put their constituents trying to separate out the two concepts. and the people of the United Kingdom first and themselves 909 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 910 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill second, they do not deserve to be Members of Parliament. are not eligible to vote still need the support of their It is the principle of equality that matters and that is Member of Parliament. That should be taken account what we must vote for. of when determining constituency size because we are there to provide a voice for all those in our constituency. 10.15 pm Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend agree that even Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): If this Bill when one or two people in a household are on the passes, we will make the most significant reduction in register, one often finds during elections that there are parliamentary representation since 1922. If we are to four, five or six people in the house who are eligible to make such a fundamental change, we need carefully to vote but not on the register? examine the basis on which we do it. There needs to be a proper assessment of constituency size, which the electoral Paul Blomfield: I accept that point entirely. On the register will not provide. In particular, any electoral calculation of unregistered households in my constituency, register from December of any one year will not provide it. I estimate that there are about 25,000 people who are eligible to vote but who would not be counted into the My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint constituency on the basis of a strict redefinition of Davies) said earlier that we know that there are particular boundaries by the electoral register. I think that we groups of voters who are under-represented—young should— people, students, those living in houses in multiple occupation, those in black and minority ethnic communities Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): and those in social housing. In a constituency such as Take your hand out of your pocket when you address mine, all those groups combine and are linked to a very the Chamber. high level of turnover to create significant under- representation and under-registration. In just one of my Paul Blomfield: I apologise for any offence that I have wards, 23% of households have no one registered. In caused the hon. Gentleman, but I think it would be another, the figure is 19% and in another it is 16%. more useful to focus on the issues under debate. In that Across the constituency, the average is 15.5%. Many of context, I want to support amendment 125, which those who are not registered to vote are those who face provides for the Boundary Commission to develop a the problems that translate into higher levels of casework much more accurate assessment of numbers, drawing for me and for my office. on information from the Office for National Statistics. I would have preferred it if amendment 229 was also Registration in the constituency contrasts sharply being considered, as that specifically covered census with the neighbouring constituency, Sheffield Hallam, information and would have provided another excellent which is represented by the Deputy Prime Minister. It way of redrawing boundaries. was a traditional Conservative seat until 1997 and some might say it is again. With the demographic profile of Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): We all Sheffield Hallam and the stability of the population in accept that the information that comes from local authorities that constituency, there are very high levels of registration. about the electoral roll is not always totally perfect, but The number of unregistered households averages just 4%. people would not accuse others of gerrymandering as a result. If we started using information from many sources, Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD) rose— there might be accusations of gerrymandering because of the use of that information. Pete Wishart: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Given the depressing statistics that he Paul Blomfield: Amendment 125 takes the census as has related to the Committee this evening—[Interruption.] one source of information, but there are and have been Sorry for the confusion, Mr Hoyle. Given the depressing fairly well-justified suggestions of gerrymandering based outlook of the figures that he has given about voter on the way in which the electoral register would be used registration, can he explain what the previous Labour were it applied in the December of any year. Government did to try to improve the situation? Chris Ruane: On that point, electoral registration Paul Blomfield: The previous Labour Government officers can calculate the eligible population in each did a great deal. Much of the responsibility for execution, ward in each of our constituencies. They have that of course, lies with the city council, which is run by the information on databases such as the housing benefit Liberal Democrats and it characterised itself by turning and council tax databases, so it is available and could be voters away from the polling station. produced to a high degree of accuracy. Paul Blomfield: I accept that point and add that Chris Ruane: Talking of Liberal Democrat councils, taking the electoral register in the December of any is my hon. Friend aware of the previous Liberal leader year in a constituency such as mine, with its turnover, of Islington council, who, when the Labour group would ensure that the numbers would be depressed. In asked for a registration drive before the election, said, the four months leading up to the general election, we “No, we’re not having that. That’s how we win elections”? added about 4,000 voters to the register in Sheffield Paul Blomfield: I was not aware of that. I am grateful Central. They were caught up in the excitement of the to have been informed and I am not at all surprised. As campaign that we were running, but those additions I said, in Sheffield Hallam, where there is only 4% under- reflect the difficulty of using the December figure. registration, we begin to see the real nature of what lies Henry Smith: Is not the answer to the problem better behind the Bill. individual electoral registration rather than playing around I must disagree with the hon. Member for Epping with the size of constituency boundaries so that some Forest (Mrs Laing)—this is not just about those who constituencies have larger populations while others have are eligible to vote. Significant numbers of people who smaller populations? 911 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 912 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Paul Blomfield: Obviously, we would all like to see However, there is a problem of under-registration of better electoral registration. The point is that we know those who should be on the electoral register, and I am there are significant groups within all our communities never going to take any lessons from the Labour party for whom it is difficult to achieve the levels of registration because throughout the period of Labour Government that we wish to see. the problem was exactly the same, and the legacy is that the Labour party left us with an under-registration of Mr Betts: My hon. Friend is making a good point; 3.5 million people. the information that he has given the Committee about the great disparity in registration levels between his Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) constituency and Sheffield, Hallam is very stark. But if (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? he looks at information that was given to a Select Simon Hughes: I am going to be brief, because the Committee hearing in the Parliament before last in the debate is time-limited until 11 pm, but I will give way. House, about initial returns to the registration officer from different parts of Sheffield, he will find that Emily Thornberry: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that registrations from Manor, an inner-city part of his in Islington we had the second-worst voter registration constituency, were only just over 50% at first instance, rate in the country when the Liberals were in charge of while in the Dore ward in Hallam they were over 95%. my local council, and when we, the Labour group, tried And if we use a December figure before the canvassing to pass a resolution to increase voter registration, the has really got going to get additional people on the deputy leader of the council shouted across the council register, those initial returns and the disparity between chamber, “Bu that’s how we win elections”? The voter them will be even greater than the disparity between the registration went up by 9,000 from 2005 to 2010, and registers as they now stand. my vote went up by 6,000. Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for making Simon Hughes: If the hon. Lady had been present a that point, because it highlights the particular difficulty few minutes ago, she would have heard that point made of using the December register. There can be only two by one of her colleagues. I have heard it made before. reasons to use December as the point at which to [HON.MEMBERS: “It is still true.”] I am making the point measure registered electors: either because there is undue that for Labour to be critical of the fact that 3.5 million haste in trying to push through this process, or because people are not registered but should be registered is there is a recognition that at that point those voters who entirely unjustified, because for 13 years Labour were in some would wish to see disregarded will not be reflected government. They could and should have done much within the register. more. The Government would claim that the Bill is about Chris Ruane rose— new politics, but a failure to address these concerns will Simon Hughes: No, I am not going to get into a big send a message to the public that this represents the debate. I address my comments to my ministerial friends, very worst of old politics, putting party advantage and they know what I am going to say next. There is a before democracy and, as one Government Member duty on Government to do much more to ensure that said on Second Reading, putting decisions behind closed people who should be registered are registered. In my doors before transparency.If the Bill proceeds unamended, constituency there is a turnover of about a quarter of it will not only damage the Government but damage the electorate every year, so registration is difficult. confidence in our democracy. I want to make publicly the point that I have made Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) privately to Ministers and to the Deputy Prime Minister. (LD): I wanted to make a couple of brief comments, My first proposition is that one of the things that I want even before I was provoked by the hon. Member for us to do—the deputy leader of the Labour party, the Swansea West (Geraint Davies). As it happens, I was right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and inaccurately provoked, because he misread the table Peckham (Ms Harman), made this point when she was produced by the Library. I am one of the Members of in government—is to work across parties and to put our Parliament whose constituency is in the top 10 of those heads together to think of all the ways in which we can where the proportion of the population registered to increase registration. I hope the new Labour leader, his vote is smaller and the population is larger. The official Front-Bench colleagues and the deputy leader will work figures in a House of Commons table show that with the Government and all other parties to make Bermondsey and Old Southwark has a population of sure we— 122,510—we are No. 10 in the list—and an electorate of Chris Ruane: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 77,628: almost the quota that is suggested across the country. The electorate make up 63.4% of the population Simon Hughes: No. The hon. Gentleman has intervened according to the latest figures. often. There are two explanations. One is that a lot of the Owen Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? differential is accounted for by people under 18; that applies across all our seats. The second is that there is a Simon Hughes: No, not now. mixture of people—inner London has this in common We need to work across parties, with all parties, to with many places—who live there perfectly lawfully but ensure that in every constituency in Britain, whatever are not entitled to vote. They are not UK citizens, the number of constituencies, everybody who can possibly they are not Irish citizens, they are not EU citizens and be registered is on the electoral register. they are not Commonwealth citizens. We have a lot in Mr Love: Can we start with the Bill? my constituency; we are very proud to do so, and I serve them without discrimination, just as I would serve Simon Hughes: Absolutely. I am keen that we do with anyone on the electoral roll. registration this autumn. 913 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 914 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill I have a second proposition. The deputy leader of the It found also: Labour party argued—I put the argument to her and “The highest concentrations of under-registration are most she made it publicly—that we should have a regular likely to be found in metropolitan areas” democracy day, democracy week or democracy month. and in areas where there are Using Government resources, the Central Office of “high levels of social deprivation.” Information, and the publicity of Government and local councils, we should have a campaign that goes out That is a representation of my constituency, which is to find people to register and does not do the traditional, vibrant, alive and contributing, but where there is huge routine, perfectly proper thing—knocking on doors, finding under-registration. that people are not in and not tracking them down. Let me look at those different categories and how My suggestion is that this November we have a big they have come to be under-registered. There has been effort led by the Deputy Prime Minister’s Department much talk of functional illiteracy being a factor in the and my right hon. and hon. Friends who are Ministers, lack of registration, but I remind the Committee that using the radio and television and getting people out on many people in my community are entirely literate in the streets, outside the tube stations in London, outside their own language. They contribute and work, but the railway stations and the bus stations, outside the often they are not able to function very well in English, further education colleges throughout the country, and which is not their first language. None the less, our local outside the supermarkets and at the shopping centres, authority, a Labour local authority, has made enormous so that rather than relying on people being found to be efforts to register people, but I shall refer again to those at home, there is a way in which people are encouraged categories of people and to why efforts fail. to vote. Many of my constituents are poor people. Members We need collectively to own a failure of a generation have spoken a lot about poverty tonight, but if someone to ensure that people are registered to vote in the is poor in my constituency and has the chance to work, numbers that they should be. It is not a party political they work. People do not lie around and take benefits matter. It should not be regarded as a case for party when they have the option to work; they work. They do banter and provocation. We all have a duty, because it is two, three and, occasionally, four little jobs on low unacceptable that so many people are not on the voting wages, and by doing all those jobs they pile up enough list when they should be. I hope that the Government to live on. However, they are never at home, including will come forward with positive proposals on a cross-party when I call to canvass them or to see whether they have basis that will engage us this autumn—next month—to any needs that I can represent, and they are not there do something about that so that we on the Government even when a proactive council such as mine sends Benches, at least, can be seen to be trying to remedy a people out at all times of the day in order to try to find problem which for 13 and a half years was not remedied people at home. There are people who never, ever come by the Labour party. into contact with those who would try to help them to register. 10.30 pm Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): The hon. Chris Ruane: Does my right hon. Friend think that Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) spoke passionately one way around that problem is to employ local people and ended with words to the effect that this was all who are trusted in such communities to do the electoral about equalising constituencies. There is no equalisation registration there? of constituencies. All our constituencies are different. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Joan Ruddock: My hon. Friend makes a very good (Simon Hughes) would agree with me, I think, that his point and there have been attempts to undertake such constituents who identify with Bermondsey do not identify work. My local authority has recruited well-known with Deptford, and vice versa. people in the community and efforts have been made at Even in London, we have distinct communities. We community events. We have many young people’s events have people who hang together as a community and as and an elected young mayor in Lewisham, and all of a society. That is extraordinarily valuable. I want to that contributes to helping people understand that they examine for a moment who the people are whom the should be registered and should take the opportunity to hon. Lady seemed to set aside as though they had no vote. worth because, she said, they are not part of our democracy. Those are real people living in our communities, Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Will the right hon. Lady contributing to our communities. This is not a one-way describe for the Committee the barriers to her local street. It is not that we are here and they come as authority having been able to do more over the past supplements to us, to ask for favours. They are people in 13 years to encourage greater electoral registration? their own right, who contribute to our communities even when they do not vote and may not be registered. Joan Ruddock: There have been very good results in They are human beings living as part of our communities. my local authority area. It removed from the register We have to think very seriously about being dismissive many names that were there inaccurately, because it of a significant proportion of our population. wanted to be honest and direct and not keep names on The hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) the roll. It would have been in a better position, given mentioned the Electoral Commission’s study when the the Government’s attitude, if it had left all those names Chamber was far less full, so I shall repeat some of his on, but its process was thorough, and through its efforts points. The investigation found that it has added many thousands of names to the register. “under-registration is notably higher than average among 17-24 year My own electorate was registered at 59,000 in 2005 olds (56% not registered), private sector tenants (49%) and black and at 67,000 in 2010. Real efforts have been made, and and minority ethnic British residents (31%).” I certainly applaud that. However, notwithstanding all 915 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 916 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Joan Ruddock] major problems in reaching people in such places, particularly those who are living in bad housing conditions. the efforts, which do have results, there will always be In my constituency, regrettably, we have many thousands people we cannot reach, and we must have regard to waiting for social housing. them. Chris Ruane: In my constituency, the ward of Rhyl Stephen Twigg: One barrier that many local authorities West is the poorest ward in the whole of Wales, which think they face is using other available data sets. Last has 1,900 wards, and it has 900 houses in multiple month, the Government made a welcome announcement occupation. Yet Gareth Evans, the electoral registration about data-sharing pilots. Does my right hon. Friend officer in Denbighshire, was able to take that ward’s agree that those pilots should be carried out prior to the registration rate up from 2,400 to 3,600 electors by fundamental changes in the Bill? cross-referencing databases and door-knocking. Does my right hon. Friend think that that should be replicated Joan Ruddock: Absolutely. It is utterly hypocritical of across the country? Government Members to accuse the Labour Government of doing nothing, because local authorities put things Joan Ruddock: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes a into practice, and many have chosen not to. It is also most valuable point. I have already paid tribute to my completely unethical to propose a Bill of this nature local authority. That job can be done, but because of all knowing that millions are not registered and utterly the factors that I have mentioned, we will not succeed in refuse to do anything about registration prior to the Bill registering 100% of people in constituencies such as possibly becoming law. mine that are affected by the problems identified by the Electoral Commission. That is partly because the population Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): Would of such areas is so mobile, with perhaps 10% of people the right hon. Lady care to tell us when it would be moving every year. It will never be possible to equalise possible to carry out a boundary review, or are we to constituencies such as Lewisham, Deptford and Epping have Labour seats being smaller than other seats for Forest. ever, given that we will never have a perfect electoral roll? 10.45 pm Joan Ruddock: The judgment that the hon. Gentleman Emily Thornberry: Is not the most important point, makes in saying that Labour seats are smaller is based and the one to which coalition Members are not listening, on numbers. that constituencies may well be much more equal than local registration figures show? In constituencies such We challenge the Government to work with all of as my right hon. Friend’s and mine where there is very us—the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark high churn, there are a large number of Europeans, and (Simon Hughes) suggested how we might all work people who want to be on the register but cannot. A together—to increase levels of registration. If we did large number of people simply do not count, but they that, the Government would be in a much better position do exist and are a valuable part of our constituencies. having made an honest effort to argue the case with us. In my view, even if we do the best that we can, there is still an issue that cannot be ignored. Joan Ruddock: I agree absolutely. I repeat that those are real people contributing to our communities and living among us, and we ought to value them. They may Stephen Twigg: I think that there is a desire in all not be on the electoral register, but they certainly exist. parts of the Committee to ensure maximum registration. The hon. Member for Epping Forest agreed that as Is my right hon. Friend aware that contrary to the point Members of Parliament, we have to treat unregistered made by the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford people equally with those who are registered if they (Nick Boles), some of the largest registered electorates come through our doors. That is a most important are in Labour-held constituencies? principle. We need to recognise their existence, value them and be willing to count them in as people who Joan Ruddock: I thank my hon. Friend for that could be registered, even if they are not. extremely important point, and I hope that it has been heard on the Government Benches. Roger Williams: Nobody would disagree with the right hon. Lady that we must make every effort to Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) register everybody who is eligible, but does she not (LD): When the boundaries were drawn last time, how agree that there are two different issues to consider? was under-registration taken into account by the Boundary One is that every Member of Parliament should be Commission? elected by an equal number of electors, and the other is that if one Member has to represent more people than Joan Ruddock: That is a matter for the Boundary others do, perhaps more resources should be made Commission; I was not party to its deliberations. available to them. She is confusing two issues. I was talking about people who are not able to be at home, people whose first language is not English, and Joan Ruddock: I am not at all. I am talking about the people who live in houses in multiple occupation. Every equal worth of people who are eligible to be registered one of us who has a constituency where there are but are not, and those who are registered. That is the houses in multiple occupation will have seen properties difference between our position and the Government’s. in which there is a sea of mailed documents and leaflets They simply wish to take a number and say that every on the floor and nobody picks them up. There are constituency must reach that number of electors, otherwise 917 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 918 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill it cannot exist. That is illogical and ludicrous, and within the resources and time available, but they might worse still, they plan to do nothing to attempt to not realise that each boundary commission gave evidence equalise the numbers, even on their own terms. to the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional I conclude by repeating that as Members of Parliament Reform and rebutted that suggestion in terms, saying we serve all our constituents and all our constituencies. that they had the resources and the capability, and that I am sure that we all often say, “Well, frankly, if you’re there was no problem whatever. not voting, don’t come complaining to me.” But we are not suggesting that only voters count, are we? On the Owen Smith: I listened to the Boundary Commission’s technical issue of registration, that is not good enough evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform for me, and it should not be good enough for the Committee. The Deputy Leader of the House is right majority of hon. Members. that the commission said that it would be able to do its work within the time frame. Clearly, it felt able to say The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of that only because it needs to pay attention only to the the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I am sure the politics by numbers—the arithmetic formula this whole Committee is delighted that we have now reached Government are imposing to gerrymander and rig the part 2 of the Bill, which is based on the very simple next election. The commission has no need to consider concept that votes across the country should have equal the geographical, historical or cultural identities and value, wherever someone is. The hon. Member for Rhondda ties that have created our constituencies. That is why it (Chris Bryant) can provide a simple example of why can do its work in the time given. that is important. His constituency, according to the records, has 51,706 electors. My constituency of Somerton and Frome has 81,566 electors. I have 30,000 more Mr Heath: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, electors than him. Why should my electors’ votes have because he has completely demolished whatever case less value than those of his electors? That is the question the hon. Member for Rhondda had for saying that the he needs to answer. Boundary Commission’s resources were inadequate for its job. Chris Bryant: I have already made it absolutely clear Hon. Members who listened to the debate might also in the debate that I believe that there should be greater have felt that the hon. Member for Rhondda had tabled equalisation of the constituencies. The Deputy Leader a second amendment of which they knew little. They of the House says that there is one sole principle, so certainly would not have heard that he wished to make why, by his own analysis, is he creating two rotten the implementation of equal votes across the constituencies boroughs in Scotland? of the UK dependent on the referendum on the powers of the National Assembly for Wales. But his amendment Mr Heath: If the hon. Gentleman accepts the principle would provide that nothing could change until after that votes should be equalised, he disguised it well in his that referendum. Our difficulty with that is that these very long contribution. We had a wide debate on this provisions have nothing to do with the devolved powers group of amendments. At one point it looked like a of the National Assembly for Wales: they are about clause stand part debate, and at another like a Bill stand putting the electors of Wales on the same basis as the part debate, given the amount of material we considered. electors of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It Most Members were relatively continent, but then we is a question of fairness. had the hon. Gentleman. When I suggested that we have an extra hour for this debate this evening because of the earlier statement, I did not appreciate that it Ian Lucas: Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise would be taken up almost entirely by him. that there are four different constitutional settlements within the United Kingdom and that those issues are On previous groups of amendments, it seemed that central to the question of the constitutional arrangements the hon. Gentleman had not properly read the Bill, but relating to this House? Why is he presenting a Bill that is on this group of amendments, it seemed that he had not constitutionally illiterate? read his own proposals. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that he was deliberately trying to avoid speaking to his amendments. Members listening to the debate might Mr Heath: I know of no constitutional principle that have assumed that his proposal was to slow down the says that voters in Wales should have twice the value of process set out in the Bill. They might have thought that voters in Somerset. I do not understand that as a in amendment 127, to which he never referred, he was constitutional concept, and it is not one that I support. proposing to extend the period for the Boundary Why should Wales continue to be over-represented? Commission to do its job, but no, that was not his Why should it be placed in that constitutional setting in proposition. If anyone cares to look at the amendment eternity? Perhaps he can tell us. paper, they will see that amendment 127 suggests that far from the Boundary Commission doing its job in Ian Lucas: The Parliamentary Secretary should recognise three years, as proposed in the Bill, it should do it one that the relationship between Wales and England is an year, which is entirely contrary to everything that he historic one that depends closely on the managed said in his contribution. He persuaded the hon. Member constitutional relations between the two countries. The for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), who is not in the reality is that Wales is a small country that has a long Chamber, that he had a sensible suggestion, but he did and strong relationship with England, a much larger not persuade me. country. Wales has a distinct identity, and when he was If hon. Members listened to the hon. Member for on the Opposition Benches he recognised that through Rhondda, they might have assumed that it would be devolution. Why is he now jettisoning the distinct identity difficult for boundary commissions to do their job of Wales and treating the people of Wales in this way? 919 Parliamentary Voting System and 19 OCTOBER 2010 920 Constituencies Bill Mr Heath: There we have the paucity of the argument Business without Debate for the defence. This is not about the historic and cultural value of the principality of Wales. I am a great fan of Wales and I always have been. It has a very EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS important part to play in the United Kingdom, but I Motion made, and Question put forthwith, (Standing return to my point that I see no reason why electors in Order No. 119(11)), Wales should have more of a say in this, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, than electors in any other part MILLENNIUM DEVELOPMENT GOALS of the country. That is the principle before us today. That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 8910/10 and Addenda 1 to 5, A Twelve-Point Action Plan in Mark Tami: The Parliamentary Secretary was asked Support of the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs); and a straightforward question earlier. If he believes in supports the efforts the Government is making through the EU to equalisation, why will two seats in Scotland be treated improve the MDGs, secure Official Development Assistance (ODA) differently? levels and improve aid effectiveness and accountability.— (Mr O’Brien.) Chris Ruane: Answer that. Question agreed to.

Mr Heath: I will happily answer— STANDARDS AND PRIVILEGES The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Ordered, Order. I think that we are going wide of the mark and That Eric Ollerenshaw be discharged from the Committee on the Deputy Leader of the House is being dragged into Standards and Privileges and Matthew Hancock be added.— areas where I would not expect him to be led. I know (Sir George Young.) that he knows better and I will let him continue with his speech. PETITION

Mr Heath: I will of course be led by you, Mr Hoyle, Education Maintenance Allowance (Wakefield College) on what it is appropriate to deal with on this group of amendments, although I will take great pleasure in 11.1 pm coming back to that argument tomorrow when we debate the proposed constituencies. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I rise to present a petition on behalf of Wakefield college, the residents of Many hon. Members have concentrated on registration, the Wakefield constituency and others, and in the name and it is an extraordinarily important issue. I yield to no of Sue Griffiths, the principal of the college on Margaret one in my wish to see registration dealt with much more street in my constituency. The petition is signed by effectively. Indeed, it was one of my persistent criticisms 271 young people from across the Wakefield district. of the 13 years of the Labour Government that they did so little to ensure that the registration of electors was The petition states: much improved. That is one of the many failures of the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons previous Government. I agree with my hon. Friend the urges the Government to consider the value of the EMA as a vital Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon support to students from low income backgrounds; to recognise the importance of the EMA as a tool for raising attainment levels Hughes), who said that this issue should transcend for 16-19 year olds and to increase social mobility; to recognise party politics and our views on the outcome of elections. the devastating impact any cuts to the EMA would have on It surely should be a principle that every single eligible students at Wakefield College; and to therefore pledge that the elector should be on the register and that those who are EMA will not be subject to government cuts but protected and not eligible should not be on the register. maintained in the future. Those are the two sides of the coin, as far as electoral Following is the full text of the petition: registration is concerned. That is why I am so pleased to [The Petition of Wakefield College and residents of have heard what the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet the Wakefield constituency and others, Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean Declares that the previous Labour government’s (Mr Harper) said the other day about the extra measures introduction of the Education Maintenance Allowance that the Government are taking to ensure that registration (EMA), to students from households where the combined is carried out more effectively across the country. We family income is less than £30,810, has increased the can do more. I am taken by the view of my hon. Friend recruitment and retention of 16 year olds in full-time the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, which education; further declares that 58% of students at Wakefield I have heard expressed before, that we should have a College receive an EMA; further declares that for many democracy day. That is something we can build on. families the EMA has become an essential part of their Perhaps hon. Members could work with the local authorities income; further declares that the EMA is a vital tool for in their area and make better registration a reality. raising attainment levels for 16-19 year olds and increasing social mobility; and further declares that this financial 11 pm support to young people continuing their education and The debate stood adjourned (Programme Order, this training is a valuable investment in young people across day, and 12 October). the country. The occupant of the Chair left the Chair. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to consider the value of The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. the EMA as a vital support to students from low income Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. backgrounds; to recognise the importance of the EMA as 921 Business without Debate 19 OCTOBER 2010 922 a tool for raising attainment levels for 16-19 year olds and VAT (Charities) to increase social mobility; to recognise the devastating Motion made, and Question proposed, impact any cuts to the EMA would have on students at That this House (Mr Dunne.) Wakefield College; and to therefore pledge that the EMA do now adjourn.— will not be subject to government cuts but protected and 11.3 pm maintained in the future. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be And the Petitioners remain, etc.] here this evening, Mr Deputy Speaker. [P000865] First, I would like to declare an interest as an unpaid patron of two charities in Wrexham—The Venture and Dynamic. Many Members will be involved in charities in their own constituencies. There are, in fact, 177 charities registered in my constituency, although, of course, many more provide services there. All MPs see the positive work that charities do. In Wrexham, I have seen the development of services provided by charities since I was elected in 2001, often co-ordinated by the Association of Voluntary Organisations in Wrexham. Many services are provided in partnership with the NHS, such as the Nightingale House hospice in the town, and some work with the local authority. There has been an expansion of the work of charities in recent years often to cover work that previously was carried out by the Government—at local or, indeed, national level. It is this concept that, I believe, the present Government wish to accelerate through the development of the Prime Minister’s concept of what he calls the big society. This process has created an anomaly.Services previously provided by local government benefited from an exemption, under section 33 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, allowing local authorities to reclaim irrecoverable VAT incurred for non-business purposes. The rationale was that the VAT burden should not fall on local taxpayers. In a world where services are increasingly provided by charities, it seems unfair to require charities to bear that burden. Although the problem has existed for some years, it will necessarily be made bigger as more services are provided by charities, rather than by central or local government. What undoubtedly makes the problem more acute is the Government’s decision to increase VAT from 17.5 to 20%. That was a choice made by the Government. At the same time as deciding to increase VAT, the Government chose to announce a decrease in corporation tax, which benefits Barclays bank, for example, but does not benefit charities, which do not pay it. The Charity Tax Group has calculated that the increase will cost charities £143 million—money that will go directly into the pockets of the Government. I would like to place on record my thanks to the Charity Tax Group for the considerable work it has done in raising the issue. As a first step towards addressing the problem of irrecoverable VAT, will the Minister agree with me that the Government should not benefit from charities having to pay more VAT? If the big society is to mean anything, how can charities be expected to bear an additional financial burden while being required to provide additional services? I contacted local charities in the Wrexham area to try to assess the impact of the VAT rise on them, and a number came back to me with figures. Earlier I mentioned Nightingale House hospice—probably Wrexham’s best known local charity—which provides excellent care to local individuals suffering from cancer, many of whom end up dying. We all have hospices in our areas that provide excellent care, and the Nightingale House hospice told me that the increase in VAT would cost it around £10,000 a year—money going directly to the Government. 923 VAT (Charities)19 OCTOBER 2010 VAT (Charities) 924

[Ian Lucas] I assume that this situation is directly contrary to the Prime Minister’s intentions. If the big society is to be Hardest hit, however, will be those charities that anything more than a vacuous soundbite, its proponents provide goods and services for sale to vulnerable people. should be extending the capacity of charities rather Vision Support is a charity that helps those across north than reducing it. We need to discuss this complex issue. Wales with a visual impairment. It has a large trading Irrecoverable VAT has existed for many years, but charities arm and supplies specialist equipment to the blind and are now carrying out more work and local authorities partially sighted, such as phones and computer aids. Its are asking them to do more work on their behalf, and VAT liability was £155,371 for the year ending 31 March the time has come for the Government to assess their 2010. The Government’s action means that the charity role and the tax that they pay, and particularly to would have to pay an extra £22,195.86 in VAT—money examine the burdens that will be imposed by the increase that it cannot use to provide services to some of the in VAT. They must then take steps to address this most vulnerable in the community that I represent. anomaly. Again, the money goes directly into the pockets of the Government. Can that approach really be justified? 11.12 pm Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David has clearly outlined the issue for charities, but along Gauke): May I first congratulate the hon. Member for with charities, there are probably literally hundreds of Wrexham (Ian Lucas) on securing this debate? I am thousands of volunteers who do great work in constituencies pleased to have this opportunity to explain and discuss across the United Kingdom. Does he agree that the the Government’s policy on VAT and charities. Charities, change will affect not only charities, but volunteers and voluntary organisations and social enterprises do so the good work that they do, and that this underlines the much for our country, and the Government are grateful need for a VAT exemption for charities? for the significant contributions that these organisations make to our communities. The Government continue to Ian Lucas: Certainly. We want to encourage volunteers support charities in a number of ways, and I will talk in our society. They contribute hugely to community about our direct support for the sector a little later, spirit, but it must be demoralising for them to have the although Members will appreciate that there is a limit hard-earned funds that they have raised taken away to what I can say about that, ahead of tomorrow’s from them. spending review. The issue is one that the Government should try to It might help if I first put on record something about confront and deal with. It has been dealt with in particular the VAT system and charities. A basic feature of the circumstances in the past; for example, it was recognised VAT system is that if VAT is not charged on outputs, it by the last Labour Government, in their listed places of cannot be recovered on inputs. The implication of this worship grant scheme. This paid the equivalent of the for charities is that when no charge is made, as is VAT expended on repair projects for listed places of generally the case, any VAT that has been incurred will worship back to those organisations. I have received not be recoverable. Of course, when a charity is registered representations from the Church in Wales asking the for VAT and engaged in taxable business activities, this Government to extend that scheme beyond its end date will enable that charity to recover its VAT costs in the of March 2011. Will the Government commit to pay normal way. We are not in a position to change the charities generally the extra VAT that they obtain from structure of VAT to protect charities fully from its those charities as a consequence of their own decision impact, but we provide support for charities through to increase the level of VAT? If the Government do not the tax system, including some VAT reliefs. do so, that will diminish the capacity of charities to Existing VAT zero rates for charities, which were carry out their work. introduced at the start of VAT, and which successive Governments have maintained, provide a benefit of Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate more than £150 million to the sector. They include VAT the hon. Gentleman on securing this Adjournment zero rating on sales of donated goods, on medical and debate. I wrote to the Minister recently about the Yorkshire scientific equipment and on goods for use by disabled air ambulance service, which receives no direct Government people for qualifying charities. Charities are not charged funding but needs £7,200 a day to keep both its air VAT on the costs of advertising in public media. In ambulances in the air. It currently has no exemption addition, they qualify for zero rating on the construction from paying VAT on the aviation fuel that it uses, but of certain buildings to be used for charitable purposes. another charity, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, All those zero rates are derogations from the normal is exempt from such charges on the fuel it buys for its EU VAT rules and represent benefits not enjoyed by lifeboats. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is yet charities elsewhere in Europe. another example of the inequality surrounding the payment of VAT by charities? Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Will the Minister comment on the issues faced by charities when Ian Lucas: Indeed. I am sure that all Members of they charge one another for back-office functions, when Parliament are aware of charities in our constituencies we are trying to encourage them to become more efficient that work extremely hard to provide services that we all and deliver services in the most entrepreneurial and value. The hon. Gentleman has just ably demonstrated efficient way possible? yet another contradiction that I cannot understand. The Government really need to address this issue as Mr Gauke: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising broadly as possible. If they do not do so, it will diminish that specific point. I can assure her and other hon. the capacity of charities to carry out that valuable work Members that the Government will continue to look at in our communities. options for cost sharing within the VAT system where 925 VAT (Charities)19 OCTOBER 2010 VAT (Charities) 926 these are available to us and where they represent an charities which cannot get the VAT exemption that need effective and efficient means of delivering support to the VAT to be paid back, because they are the ones that the sector. We are currently looking at the implementation are suffering. of the EU VAT exemption for cost sharing. The Government recognise efficiencies that can be achieved Mr Gauke: The hon. Lady is right to suggest that the by organisations such as charities working together problem is most acute for the smaller charities, but I do efficiently, but we also recognise the potential VAT not think that that entirely detracts from the fact that in barriers such organisations face when they share services some circumstances those charities may well be in in exactly the way the hon. Lady mentioned. We said in competition with the private sector in the delivery of the Budget that we would work closely with charities welfare and care services. There may be a distortion of and other affected sectors to consider options for competition, and we ought to examine that very closely. implementing the exemption, which would help to remove We fully recognise that the increase in the rate of VAT some of the barriers ahead of a formal consultation is unwelcome, but it is necessary to sustain public that we will launch later in the autumn. I hope that that finances and ensure long-term fiscal stability. The burden provides some reassurance to the hon. Lady. of deficit reduction must be shared. It simply would not Returning to the issue of zero rates, as the hon. be right to single out one sector over another for special Member for Wrexham will be aware it is not open to us treatment, especially in view of the generous tax reliefs under our European agreements to extend or amend the that have already been provided. zero rates, but we recognise how valuable they are to The hon. Gentleman and his party oppose the increase charities, so we are committed to retaining the zero in VAT to 20%—which will raise £13.5 billion—but rates that we already have. Charities also benefit from want to do more to reduce the deficit by raising taxes, certain specific VAT exemptions that apply to goods which leads to the question of how those taxes should and services used in connection with fundraising events, be raised. The last Government’s proposed solution in providing further support for all charities. the form of a tax rise—which has been reversed—was VAT reliefs are just one element of the support that the increases in national insurance contributions, which the Government provide through tax. Within the wider would also have affected charities. tax system, existing reliefs for charities are worth something like £3 billion a year, of which gift aid is the largest Ian Lucas: The last Government also raised £3.5 billion single relief. Gift aid is now worth nearly £1 billion a from a tax on bankers’ bonuses. That is an alternative year to charities, and such payments to charities are way of raising tax. Let me, however, return to the issue increasing. Gross donations made under gift aid amounted of the additional burden of VAT that the Government to almost £4.6 billion in 2009-10—an increase of 6.5% over have chosen to impose on charities. The Minister has the previous year. We fully recognise the importance of listed a number of the tax exemptions that already improving gift aid. Charity representatives have been apply to charities. Why are the Government refusing exploring proposals for reform with Treasury and HMRC simply to pass back to charities the additional revenue officials on the gift aid forum. We will be exploring the that they are receiving from the tax hike that was forum’s recommendations before deciding on the best imposed on them? way forward. The hon. Member for Wrexham wants us to go Mr Gauke: I return to the central point. A refund further and provide support for all charities to relieve system, whether for the recently announced increase in them in respect of their irrecoverable VAT. As I have VAT or the irrecoverable VAT across the board—which, already explained, there is realistically very little that as the hon. Gentleman fairly pointed out, is a long-standing can be done within the VAT system itself. It is possible issue—would involve a considerable cost to the Exchequer. in principle to introduce a measure that would deliver We must consider both the public finances and the most refunds of VAT to charities in respect of their non-business effective way in which we can help charities. activities. However, such refunds, which are a matter of Government expenditure rather than taxation, would I want to say something about the Government’s represent a very significant cost to the Exchequer, especially support for the voluntary and charitable sector in addition given the current fiscal position. to the generous tax relief provided, especially through We also have to consider that many charities are gift aid. However, Members will appreciate that much engaged in activities where they are in direct competition of the detail is a matter for tomorrow’s spending review with private sector organisations, such as in the provision statement. The Government are proceeding with a new of care and welfare services, and it would be difficult to programme of activity to build the big society. The big refund VAT that charities incurred in respect of those society agenda requires the state not only to pull back activities, as that would represent an unfair distortion when services can be provided more cost-effectively and of competition. Any scheme that could be devised successfully by charities, mutual organisations and might well be complex and administratively burdensome co-operatives, but to help social entrepreneurs and voluntary for charities to operate. In our view, it is far better for groups to work in partnership with the state and gain the Government, instead of introducing further complexities access to the support and finance they need in order to for charities, to focus on improving charities’ capabilities provide innovative, bottom-up solutions where expensive to improve their own affairs, and I will turn to this in state provision has failed. more detail shortly. Mrs Chapman: I wholeheartedly support the notion Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The charities of the big society and encouraging charities to provide that are engaged in competition with the private sector services. Among the key sources of income for those tend to be the larger ones, which go for contracts and charities are philanthropic donations. Does the Minister are registered for VAT on their services It is the smaller not agree that people wishing to make donations are 927 VAT (Charities)19 OCTOBER 2010 VAT (Charities) 928

[Mrs Chapman] involved. We want to help the sector to access a wider range of funding to increase its strength and independence. sometimes put off by the thought that some of the We are establishing a big society bank to lever additional money they are giving is not being spent on the charitable social investment into the sector, and we are reviewing objectives of the organisation concerned, but is finding ways to incentivise further philanthropy and charitable its way back to the Treasury? giving. The Government are keen to progress this project as quickly as possible. Any progress will, however, be Mr Gauke: I imagine that exactly the same argument subject to the availability of dormant account funds. could apply if we increased national insurance contributions, In conclusion, the Government are committed to which I understand is Labour party policy. making it easier for the sector to work with the state Ahead of tomorrow’s spending review statement, it is and to strengthening relations between the two. That not possible for me to say how much of the overall will not happen overnight, but a stable, strong and Government budget will go to the sector, but we are independent voluntary sector is needed if we are to providing structural support designed to make it more deliver on the big society and give power back to efficient and resilient, and reforming commissioning citizens and communities. and procurement, which currently hamper its involvement Question put and agreed to. in public service delivery. During the spending review 2010 period, we want 11.25 pm there to be more opportunities for the sector to be House adjourned. 181WH 19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 182WH

longer franchises. The companies are also demanding Westminster Hall more say in—and, we believe, eventual control over—our railways, including track, signals and stations. The Tuesday 19 October 2010 suggestion seems to be that we should re-create the big, private, regional rail companies that the Labour Government eliminated in 1945 when we nationalised [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] the railways. Given those policy areas, I will use this debate to Railway Industry highlight some concerns raised by passengers and rail Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting workers. We have read reports in the press that the be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.) protection afforded by regulated fares might be weakened, and that UK fares—already the most expensive in 9.30 am Europe—could rise by 30% or more. Passengers will find that hard to stomach, particularly as they know Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a that senior directors of the big five transport companies pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Dobbin, and to that control most of the railways are still paying themselves have this opportunity to debate the future of the railways. salaries that most people, frankly, consider obscene. We I want to set this debate in the context of the economic know that the railways depend almost entirely on annual situation that we face and express the concern felt in public subsidies and the revenues generated by fares. In many quarters that the policies we believe that the effect, by awarding themselves such large salaries, railway Government may pursue could make things worse. I executives are forcing taxpayers and fare payers to hope that colleagues will join me in welcoming the subsidise their excess. thousands of trade unionists who are coming to the House today as part of the TUC lobby of Parliament. The trade union RMT has researched the matter and They include many rail workers. I hope that we will provided me with some shocking figures. RMT says listen to what they say before tomorrow’s comprehensive that Moir Lockhead—recently of FirstGroup, which spending review. runs First Capital Connect, First Great Western, Hull Trains, First TransPennine and ScotRail—was paid more I pay tribute to the rail workers who work in all than £500,000 last year, as was Ray O’Toole, recently of conditions to keep Britain moving. It is important that National Express, which runs c2c Railways. David Martin their voice is heard in this debate; I hope to discuss their of Arriva, the highest-paid director, was paid almost concerns and those of service users. I declare an interest £750,000, and Brian Souter of Stagecoach Group is as a member of various parliamentary trade union paid more than that for running South West Trains and groups organised by the railway trade unions. I have East Midlands Trains, but top of the tree is Keith also worked closely on the issues with the National Ludeman of Go-Ahead Group, who was paid a salary Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, the of £916,000 last year and whose salary has since increased Transport Salaried Staffs Association and ASLEF. by 35% to £1.2 million. It is important to remind ourselves of the three policy Will the Minister comment on those salaries and join areas under consideration that involve the future of the me in agreeing that passengers, who face big fare increases railways. First, the previous Government, after the 2009 and are likely to suffer the consequences of cuts in the pre-Budget report, established a value-for-money review subsidies provided to our railways, will find such salaries of our railways. According to the Government, the unacceptable? Those salaries are paid, in effect, by the review, headed by Sir Roy McNulty, has no no-go areas; taxpayer and fare payer. I hope that she will agree that everything is up for grabs. The new Government have transport bosses should be exercising pay restraint, asked that the review be expedited. We understand that particularly at a time when the Government are asking it will be published in March, but the Secretary of State everybody else to tighten their belts. I also hope that she has already been given the interim findings, which I am will agree to write to the transport companies asking told are likely to be published in November. I also them to exercise restraint. understand that Sir Roy told the Secretary of State that his interim report was not at a stage to be used to My second point is about the behaviour of the privatised inform any decisions made in the comprehensive spending transport companies and the profits that they have review, but will the Minister confirm that? made from privatisation. Over the past 10 years, the The second major policy context for this debate is the biggest five transport companies have paid dividends of comprehensive spending review. Like other Departments, more than £2 billion to shareholders. Over the past the Department for Transport will, we believe, be asked seven years, the three rolling stock leasing companies to make big cuts. There are understandable concerns that own the trains have paid dividends of more than that if we make cuts to our railways, we will damage the £1 billion. Professor Jean Shaoul of Manchester university infrastructure needed to drive economic recovery and estimates that since privatisation, dividends of more growth as well as to meet the ambitious targets that we than £10 billion have been paid. set ourselves in the Climate Change Act 2008. There is As colleagues will know, windfall taxes on utilities also concern that the comprehensive spending review have been levied successfully in the past. The Government will punish UK passengers with even higher fares, although are also considering a levy on bankers. Will the Minister ours are already the highest in Europe. agree to consider imposing a windfall tax on the profits The third major policy area is the Government’s of the privatised railway system instead of penalising review of rail franchising, which has generated headlines passengers with fare increases? At the very least, does saying that the train operating companies are clubbing she agree that instead of paying huge dividends, railway together to demand that the Government hand over companies should be helping protect passengers and 183WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 184WH

[Katy Clark] “European procurement law makes clear that contracts over 15 years require significant investment to be provided by the taxpayers at this time by agreeing to freeze dividend franchisee. Therefore, our starting proposition is that 12 - 15 years payments and invest all profits back into our railways should be the standard length of franchises”. instead? That seems to say that we should extend franchises to the maximum length at which franchise holders have no Will the Minister consider the work of Richard Murphy legal obligation to invest significantly and leave investment of the Tax Justice Network? He undertook a study, a completely at the discretion of the franchise holder. copy of which has been submitted to the value-for- money review, that considered the available sets of accounts for the six railway operating companies and The Minister of State, Department for Transport three railway leasing companies operating in the UK (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I assure the hon. Lady that, between 2002 and 2006. He found that during that whatever the length of the franchise, we will be pressing period alone, those companies owed £1.3 billion in for the best deal for the taxpayer, including investment unpaid tax that the Government had not chased. Will with longer franchises—whether they are for 10, 15 or she read a copy of that study and examine its conclusions? 22.5 years. My third point relates to the future of Network Rail. Katy Clark: I am very pleased to hear the Minister The Minister will be aware from the McNulty review of say that. However, if we are going for franchises of the railways that the same companies paying their top approximately 12 to 15 years, there will not be that legal directors such handsome salaries and making massive obligation, which must have a consequence for the profits now hope also to profit by taking over the tracks decision that companies make. and signals currently owned and operated by Network Rail. Although Network Rail is a private company, it is a not-for-dividend company. That means the £4 billion Mrs Villiers: I am sure that the hon. Lady will appreciate or £5 billion annual subsidy does not leak out of the that franchise documents impose significant legal industry in dividend payment; instead, any profits are obligations, and we expect those to include investment reinvested in the railways. Whatever faults Network in the railways, particularly where a longer franchise is Rail may have, taking railway maintenance back in-house granted. has clearly had the effect of reintegrating much of our railways. Indeed, I believe that that has been responsible Katy Clark: I am pleased to hear the Minister say for the significant improvements in punctuality since that. If the Government decide to go down the path of the Hatfield disaster. franchises of such a length, we will be actively scrutinising the situation to ensure that the contracts in place not only are legally binding but are enforced and deliver for Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I congratulate my the taxpayer and those who use the railways. hon. Friend on securing this important and timely debate. When the track renewals company Jarvis went We know that the train operating companies are belly up earlier this year, some 1,200 employees were demanding further fragmentation and privatisation of made redundant and only about a quarter of them have our national railway structure. The former Network so far got another job in the railway industry. Does my Rail chief executive talked about simply sweating the hon. Friend agree that the Government will need the assets of the railway infrastructure. If franchises were skills of skilled track laying workers, if they build the coming to an end and existing operators were either not new north-south high-speed railway that will run from going to bid again or were not shortlisted for replacement, London to Birmingham and on to Yorkshire and the there is a great deal of concern that there would be little north-west? I regret that I must attend another meeting pressure on them to invest. at 10.30 am, but will my hon. Friend press the Minister I also ask the Minister to consider carefully concerns on what the Government can do to secure jobs for those that breaking up Network Rail would have a negative redundant workers who have not yet got jobs themselves, impact on rail freight. There is a real fear that passenger so that their skills can be retained in the railway industry operators will be tempted to fill any spaces in the and used to build new railways? timetable with their own revenue raising services, which would push freight to one side. Freight trains are often Katy Clark: My hon. Friend makes some powerful heavier than their transport equivalents and can do points, to which I will return later in my contribution. much damage to the track, which raises the possibility The privatised rail companies propose to threaten the that the private operator could limit free access or progress that has been made in the railways in recent leverage high track access charges on the movement of years. They want their companies to take over the freight. That would force freight from the railway to the infrastructure, perhaps on leases that would coincide road, which would have a series of unhelpful environmental with the length of the franchises. There is talk of consequences. trialling such arrangements in Merseyside or Scotland. Many people in the industry and in the rail trade The train operating companies have promised that unions are also concerned about the arguments of those that will incentivise them to invest in the railways, but who are making the case for breaking up Network Rail. they have provided absolutely no evidence to support In particular, they are concerned about the report of the that submission. Indeed, the evidence of the past and Office of Rail Regulation, which is quoted again and of their tenure with the railway passenger services again as stating that, compared with other European shows that they simply seek to maximise profit and railways, Network Rail is up to 40% less efficient. I say boardroom pay, as I have already mentioned. In fact, to the Minister that hon. Members may make such the Government’s own consultation document, “Reforming points today because they have read articles in the press, Rail Franchising,” states: but many in the industry, the RMT and the other 185WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 186WH railway unions have a great deal of concern about that I pay tribute to those who work on the railways. My report’s methodology. They believe it is flawed and that hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) it has cherry-picked different aspects of rail infrastructure mentioned the Jarvis workers who have already lost efficiency from abroad to paint our railways in a more their jobs. Thousands of Network Rail workers have unfavourable light. The report does not seem to take been asked to make efficiency savings and many have into account factors that determine efficiency, such as already lost their jobs. I hope that we are now moving adequate investment over long periods, the need for a towards a period of stability and consolidation. We unified command structure and, most importantly, the know, as he indicated, that many of the Jarvis workers continued fragmentation of our infrastructure compared are still without work and have lost their pensions. with European railways. Given his comments, I suggest that it would be helpful if We need to consider the benefits of having an integrated, the Minister met me, him and other interested colleagues publicly-owned railway. I therefore hope that the Minister to discuss the plight of those workers and whether the will ensure that those conducting the rail review—and Government can do more to ensure that alternative the Government themselves—do not just look at the employment is available for them in these difficult economic issue on an ideological basis, but consider the comparisons times. Thousands of jobs have already been lost on our with other European railways. There has been some railways, on both the passenger and freight sides, and concern about the ORR’s report and I suggest to the we are also seeing a gradual attack on train guards as Minister that she should be willing to receive more companies try to introduce driver-only operations, which detailed representation from those who are concerned will reduce staffing levels even further and, I believe, about that issue. It is obviously vital that we make the raise significant safety concerns. right choices for our railways. In Scotland, the Scottish National party Administration In June, the Secretary of State said: has taken advantage of the clause included in all railway “Passengers and taxpayers will rightly ask why it is that our franchises that allows railway companies to ask the railways in the UK are so much more expensive than those in the Government to make good the loss of revenue caused rest of Europe.” by strike action. The Labour party in Scotland says that I believe that the answer is already there for him to see. it will remove that clause from ScotRail franchises if it For example, the 2009 European Commission report is successful in next year’s elections. Does the Minister into the rail market made it clear that the structure of agree that the current review of railway franchises should UK railways is radically different from that of railways look at that matter and remove that provision from all in the rest of Europe. In terms of passenger operation franchises? and infrastructure, most of the railways in Europe are Many people who work in ticket offices are losing publicly owned and accountable, whereas in the UK their jobs, with implications not only for them but for they are not. safety. We know that there is some protection for ticket Compared with other railways in Europe, the offices, as train operators are required to consult passengers organisation and structure of our railways is horrifically and Passenger Focus if they wish to shut offices or complex—they are fragmented and have numerous change their opening hours. Does the Minister agree interfaces. We have 24 operating companies, three freight that those protections must remain in place and should operators, three rolling stock leasing companies, two not be removed as a result of the review? Thousands of infrastructure controllers—Network Rail and Eurotunnel jobs are under threat in London Underground, many in —and seven major infrastructure renewal companies. ticket offices, as a result of the Mayor’s decision to That must lead to huge inefficiencies. There is a duplication renege on his election promise on staffing levels. Cuts of function and a loss of economy of scale. In addition, will also fall elsewhere, including safety critical railway the fact that there are so many individual companies maintenance jobs. As a result, there has been strike means that there are increased profit margins and action on the Underground, as the Minister is aware. transaction costs—even the legal and consultancy fees Indeed, the workers who were hailed as heroes after the are duplicated again and again. Skilled personnel validate London bombings in 2005 are now often vilified in the and monitor contracts instead of getting on with the press as enemies of the state. I hope that there is a job and, perhaps most damaging, there has been a loss negotiated settlement to the dispute, and I pay tribute of a rail culture that focused on getting the job done, to those members of the RMT and the Transport with one company and one stakeholder blaming the Salaried Staffs Association who are taking a stand on other when things go wrong. I understand that the rail behalf of passengers and rail safety. review has already indicated that the railways could save I have put several questions to the Minister and am hundreds of millions of pounds a year by reducing that most anxious that she respond to them either today or, fragmentation and the number of different organisations if she is unable to do so, in writing at a later date. I will involved with them. mention those questions again, because they can often I hope that the Minister will look at what is happening be lost in Adjournment debates. Will she clarify whether to railways across Europe, which are overwhelmingly the McNulty review will inform the transport decisions publically owned and far more integrated than those in in the comprehensive spending review set out tomorrow? the UK. I believe that that would provide a better Will she write to the executives of the big transport service and cheaper fares for the public, that it would be companies and ask that they practise pay restraint in better for the environment and that it would lead to the boardroom? Will she agree to a levy on the profits of more high-speed rail and more electrification. Will she the privatised rail industry or, at the very least, tell the give an undertaking that there will be a transparent companies to freeze their profits and invest them back consideration of an integrated and publicly owned railway into the railways? Will she meet me and other interested and that the methodology used to consider those matters parties to discuss the continuing plight of the former is made public? Jarvis workers? Will she ensure that the franchising 187WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 188WH

[Katy Clark] last Parliament, I think that we all agree that maintaining the existing line was economically the right answer, review results in the removal of clauses that allow despite the coastal erosion. taxpayers’ money to be used to indemnify train operating The House of Commons inquiry came up with the companies against losses incurred during industrial action? figure of £100 million to put in a new line. By comparison, Will she ensure that the Government transparently consider I have been able to unearth a figure of £200,000 to the benefits of an integrated and publicly owned railway maintain that stretch of railway. On the concern about network and publish the methodology that they will use erosion, the latest studies show that we are looking at a to consider the matter? relatively safe period over the next 50 years. The expectation is that there will be a 0.3 metre rise in sea levels in the next 100 years which, while important, should not 9.55 am detract from the viability of maintaining this piece of Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I am track. delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this I would also draw to the Minister’s attention the fact important matter, and I thank the hon. Member for that usage of this railway line is one of the fastest North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for securing growing in the country; it is anticipated that it will grow the debate. Railways are a key part of our infrastructure, by 19% over this and next year. It is obvious that the and if we are serious about global warming, investment more we invest in maintaining pieces of railway, the less in them is key. Today, however, I would like to focus on dependence there will be on cars. In rural parts of the the challenge I face in my constituency. We have a country such as mine, there is already significant dependence delightful coastal railway—it starts in Exeter and terminates on cars, so this line makes an important contribution. in Plymouth—running through Starcross, Dawlish, I urge the Minister to look carefully at the line and at Teignmouth and Newton Abbot in my constituency. It continuing investment in it. The last conversations that is probably one of the most beautiful parts of the I had with First Great Western and Network Rail railway network and has been photographed countless indicated that there was no intention of reducing investment, times. More importantly, it is a lifeline for my local but I would be grateful if the Minister looked into that. community, providing jobs and transport. My final question, which is related but more of The records that I have been able to review show that national import, is about rolling stock. The trains that 2 million people used that part of the network in the come down my piece of railway line are very full. I past 12 months. The local economy is heavily dependent understand that, under the previous Government, obtaining on tourism. Devon as a whole had 5.3 million visitors in new rolling stock was very much down to the Government, the past year, and those tourists are responsible for who controlled what rolling stock train operating companies 7% of Devon’s economy. My constituency is in the could acquire. That put a straitjacket on the proper district of Teignbridge, where tourism is critically important; commercial operation of those businesses, and I would it is the second most visited district in Devon. A third of be grateful if the Minister looked at loosening that the workers in Teignbridge—16,000 people—depend on stranglehold so that companies can make sensible tourism for their jobs. I urge the Minister to consider commercial decisions. Hopefully there will be sensible how important that stretch of railway is, not only use of rolling stock down the line. because it is beautiful, but because it really matters to the economic viability of that part of the country. 10.2 am

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I shall The hon. Lady outlines accurately some of the benefits make several brief points. I refer to my entry in the that railway provision can bring, particularly to areas Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I chair the that require tourism infrastructure, such as my constituency RMT parliamentary group, as the Minister will know. and hers. Does she agree that simple investment in We are hoping that through the National Union of railways, such as the passing loop system, which does Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, the Transport not exist on single-lane tracks in my constituency and Salaried Staffs Association and ASLEF, we can have a might not in hers, can help to build the tourist infrastructure dialogue with the Government during this key period to which she alluded and make the switch from private when critical decisions are being made about the future cars to railways so much easier? of rail. I would welcome an early ministerial meeting to discuss the interim McNulty report when it is published in November. It is a pity that it was not published before Anne Marie Morris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the comprehensive spending review, because it would his contribution. I do not claim to be an expert in have been helpful to see whether it influenced some of railway loops, but the most important thing is to ensure the decisions that will be announced tomorrow. that we have viable railway networks at an appropriate The RMT group met with Roy McNulty last week and affordable cost, which is something the Minister is for an informal discussion of some of its concerns best placed to look at. about what happened in the past and what seems to be My concern about the stretch of the railway network occurring under this Government. We were hoping that in my constituency is that there were suggestions during there would be a more objective discussion about the the last Parliament that it is not worth maintaining it future structure of rail in this country, but it appears and that we should instead consider an inland route. that any prospect of looking at an integrated railway That proposal was made because the line, which is on system under public ownership—even some element of the coast, is subject to coastal erosion. Clearly that is a public ownership in the structure which would enable a concern, but given the work that was done during the public sector comparator—has been ignored again. 189WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 190WH

I still cannot comprehend why we cannot at least review of the role that rail plays in tackling climate consider using one of the franchises as a public sector change, and therefore the importance of maintaining comparator. We know from the experience in the south-east fares at a reasonable level. that when Connex was brought back into public ownership Passenger numbers have increased dramatically over for a period, it ran more efficiently, more effectively and the past 13 years, largely as a result of the increase in more profitably than most other franchises across the economic activity. As we go into recession, there will country. We hoped that the previous Government would inevitably be a reduction of passenger usage, and there at least maintain it in public ownership so that there will be a temptation to make up the funding gap by could be a public sector comparator. increasing fares. That would be completely counter- If Members trawl through Hansard, they will see productive: it would push more people off public transport question after question over past years in which Ministers and, as a result, have a dramatic impact on our policies were asked why we cannot have a public sector comparator. to tackle climate change and our environmental policies They were also asked what calculations and assessments overall. had been made in respect of other systems across Europe Finally, let me raise a staffing issue. The treatment of that are under integrated public ownership so that we the Jarvis workers was a disgrace. The way in which could at least make some judgment of the private they were notified of the loss of their jobs was appalling. franchising system that has been in operation in this They have almost been turned into roaming serfs looking country for the past two decades. for work. We hear stories of people having to move around the country on zero-hour contracts, and even of Several lessons have come out of independent people putting up camps near to where they can bid for comparisons. It has been found that integrated systems work the following day. under public ownership, without a panoply and multiplicity of various agencies—my hon. Friend the Member for I raised the matter with the previous Government North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) listed 24 different and said that there should have been an intervention by companies and four or five regulatory bodies or the Government and Network Rail, and that the contracts Government decision-making bodies—are more efficient and staffing levels could have been maintained. Things as well as more cost-effective. I am concerned that in were badly handled then, and there is a need for this Mr Roy McNulty’s review there is still a prejudice even Government to intervene now, because this is not just against examination of a public sector option or role in about how individual staff are treated; it is also about any part of our system beyond Network Rail. the expertise that we need for the future. Surely to God we have learned lessons in the past that Briefly, on investment, the rail industry overall, including if we do not maintain expertise, and therefore do not management and unions, hopes that commitments will maintain the track effectively, there will inevitably be be given by the Government in the comprehensive accidents, loss of life and serious injury. We have had so spending review statement to high-speed rail—we look many inquiries—surely we have learned the lessons. I forward to the consultation starting in January—and to urge this Government to intervene, to look at what Crossrail. That would at least allow us to see a longer-term happened in the displacement of ex-Jarvis workers and future for investment in the infrastructure that we so their expertise, and to see what can be done to secure desperately need. not just their jobs but also their expertise for the long I compliment the previous Government, who at least term. committed themselves to Crossrail and to bringing forward high-speed rail, although I was critical of some of the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I declare an interest delays in investment. We need this Minister to tell us in the debate, as I have a constituency development plan that that long-term programme is secure. with the TSSA. The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie On the staffing point, does my hon. Friend agree that Morris) discussed rolling stock. Even under this if we break up Network Rail, we will create not only Government, we need a discussion about investment in more insecurity for workers, but a bidding structure for rolling stock, which would stimulate British industry them? When rail was first privatised, the bidding war rather than the import market. With a limited amount for drivers made the cost much more expensive because of investment and a commitment to the purchase of each franchise then bid for certain expertise. rolling stock, there is potential to rebuild the rail A more important issue is safety. Already there is manufacturing base in Britain. This relates largely to erosion of track inspection and other safety elements. If what my hon. Friend the Member for York Central we fragment the industry further, especially track control, (Hugh Bayley) said about the loss of skills over years if we will certainly make accidents, such as those at Grayrigg, we do not invest in the rolling stock manufacturing base Hatfield and so on, more likely. of our country. Any lifting of the cap on protected fares will fly in the John McDonnell: I could not have said that more face of everything that the Government, when they eloquently. My hon. Friend makes an extremely valid were in Opposition, said about their commitment to the point. I urge the Government to tread carefully when development of rail as one of the key transport mechanisms making decisions on franchising and the integration of that will help us to protect our environment. The threatened track with operations, because we have seen what has increases of anything up to 37% to rail fares on some happened elsewhere. Mr Armitt said that when companies routes, and now the threat of increased fares on London have gained franchises in other sectors, they seek to underground, undermine the Government’s green “sweat the assets”to maximise their profits. That eventually credentials from the outset. I hope that there will be has an implication for safety.Having a nationally integrated some acknowledgment in the comprehensive spending system would overcome those issues. 191WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 192WH

[John McDonnell] when the franchise went from National Express to East Coast. The line north of Edinburgh has long been a My hon. Friend also referred to the transaction costs problem because it is not electrified, so it has been involved both in that sort of breaking up and in individual difficult to reduce journey times from Aberdeen to franchising. The Government should carefully examine Edinburgh. When the previous Government committed Roy McNulty’s work and the transaction costs that will themselves to purchase new dual electric-diesel trains to result. On London Underground, I was assured by the run the whole length of the line, there was considerable previous Government that Metronet was a one-off failure hope that that would lead to a reduction in journey and that Tube Lines would be secure, but we then had times. the failure of Tube Lines. The estimated cost of those When the franchise was transferred, Lord Adonis, franchises and setting up the public-private partnership the then Secretary of State for Transport, assured me was £400 million on consultancies, accountants and and others that there was no danger of cutting services lawyers alone. The Government should learn lessons north of Edinburgh. Unfortunately, shortly before the from the past. general election, he postponed the purchase of the new On London Underground staffing, despite what people trains and left the decision until after the election. I read in newspapers, RMT and TSSA have taken industrial thought at the time that that was an ominous sign, and action because 800 jobs will go if London Underground so it has proved to be. The new Government have twice does not reconsider its position. Those 800 staff are postponed the decision, more recently until the based at stations including Hayes and Harlington in my comprehensive spending review, which is due tomorrow. constituency. If we lose those staff, we lose security and That has the ring of a death knell for the contract to safety at those stations in the lead-up to the London purchase those trains. Olympics. We are trying to put on a display for the I appreciate that the Minister will not tell us today, world so that when people come here to enjoy the before the Chancellor’s announcement, what will happen, Olympics, they can travel in comfort and absolute safety. but I remain gloomy about the prospect for those trains. It would be a retrograde, short-sighted step to lay off The matter is important, and I asked her a written those 800 staff, particularly at this key time. question about the services north of Edinburgh. She I urge London Underground to return to the negotiating replied: table and to seek a settlement with the two unions. “The current level of direct services between London and Otherwise, there may be a long, bitter and protracted Aberdeen and Inverness will continue to be provided when the dispute that will affect the travelling public in a way that new East coast line timetable is introduced in May 2011.” will jeopardise their safety in the long term. The dispute So far, so good, but unfortunately, she continued: is a principled one. It is not about wages, but about “The longer term future of direct services between London looking after the safety of the travelling public. That is and Inverness and Aberdeen will be determined by forthcoming why I support it and have appeared on picket lines. decisions on replacement of the current rolling stock.”—[Official There may be a role for the Government. If London Report, 16 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 1244W.] Underground remains intransigent, the Government The Minister may say that I am wrong, but alarm bells should intervene, because the matter is important. rang because she seemed to be specifically linking the I welcome this important debate engendered by my services to the rolling stock and, by implication at least, hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran. if the rolling stock is not purchased, long-term services I urge the Minister to meet the union groups, to discuss are at risk. If I am correct, that is a short-sighted way of the McNulty report on the long-term future, and perhaps looking at the future of this important line because its to return to the matter in six months to monitor progress importance is not only economic. on the Government’s initial decisions. The coalition Government claim to be the greenest ever, but that seems to be a pretty shaky claim if they do 10.14 am not consider the need to reduce carbon emissions by providing more rail than air transport. Failure to provide Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I welcome this debate, regular services from the north-east of Scotland will and I congratulate the hon. Member for North Ayrshire seriously impact on that. I have used the line many and Arran (Katy Clark) on securing it and on making a times to travel down to London. I take the train from wide-ranging and knowledgeable speech about the railways, Montrose in my constituency, and it takes around six despite her inability to avoid a quick stab at the Scottish and a half hours to get to King’s Cross. From Aberdeen, Government. the journey is around seven hours. Clearly, that is a long I want to concentrate on two areas that concern my train journey, and business men coming from Aberdeen, constituency—the future of the east coast rail line and which is Europe’s oil capital, are faced with the option the plan for the high-speed rail network, both of which of taking a plane from Aberdeen airport, which takes are vital to our economic future. The east coast line is approximately one and a half hours to London. Even vital to the north-east of Scotland because it provides taking into account the time taken to check in and to the major cities of the north of England direct access to get in from Heathrow, it is clearly quicker to go by air. London and, importantly, to the cross-channel network However, even with the existing service, for someone through the Eurostar and Eurotunnel and, I hope, to travelling from Edinburgh the decision to travel by air Germany if the proposed connections to German cities or train is much more marginal. come to pass. The line provides an important link for The point is that if we are serious about moving business and tourism and is a vital economic asset. travellers, particularly domestic business travellers, from I have had serious concerns for some time about the air to rail, the issue that must be addressed is not just future of services on the line, especially north of Edinburgh. price, but time. We must ensure that there is a realistic I raised those concerns as far back as July 2009, and alternative, and that can be provided only by speeding 193WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 194WH up journey times. I appreciate that the proposed new that must be delivered in phases as it takes some time. trains are not a magic bullet for the problem, and that The ultimate goal, of course, is to take high-speed rail the decrease in journey time provided by the trains to Scotland. It would be interesting to hear whether the alone might not be all that significant. The line has Scottish Government are willing to devote resources to various other problems, not least the physical restraints that programme in the future. I have discussed the issue at Montrose in my constituency, where part of the line with them, and I hope that in the future they will is single track and the geography of the area makes it consider whether they can devote some of their resources difficult for it to be dualled. However, the proposed to aiding such a project. dual fuel trains would send a clear signal that the Government are serious about investment in the railways, and in ensuring that we continue with the regular and Mr Weir: I am sure that the Scottish Government will worthwhile service that links Aberdeen directly with do that. However, there is not much point in building a London and through to the continental mainland. Unless high-speed line if it does not link up with the rest of the we look at such proposals, we will undoubtedly fail to network. At the moment, the high-speed line will run persuade people to switch from air travel to rail, even if nowhere near Scotland. I understand that Network Rail the Government use taxation to push up the price of had a proposal that would have taken the line into flying. central Scotland. That would have made more sense, it would have linked central Scotland with the main high-speed Julie Hilling: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s network running south, and it would have provided the point about trains and the green economy. Does he basis for an extension of the network further north. At agree that electrification pushes all the buttons for the the moment, as the Minister knows, the high-speed green economy? Electrification makes trains greener, it network comes nowhere near Scotland, and it will be is better for the environment, it increases the speed of many years before it gets as far as Edinburgh. The the train and reduces the wear on the track. We must Government seem to take a London-centric view of the continue with electrification, particularly in my constituency matter. If we were to tip things the other way so that where the previous Government were committed to the the line ran south, the speed of journeys would increase electrification of the lines between Liverpool and faster and the green objectives of the Government and Manchester, and Manchester and Preston. Electrification the Scottish Government would be met. speeds up journeys; today, a person would be crazy to The Scottish Government have invested a lot in the take an aeroplane from Manchester to London, although railway in Scotland. I accept that that is their responsibility that option was frequently used in the past. Electrification and that some of the work must be done in Scotland—there is a key part of the argument. is no argument about that. For example, the Scottish Mr Weir: The hon. Lady makes a good point. Whether Government opened a new station at Laurencekirk on electrification is greener than its alternative depends on the east coast line, although strangely enough the direct how the electricity is generated, but that is an associated mainline services will not stop there, so people still have issue. However, she is right that the faster train journeys to get a train to another station to get on those direct can be made, the more likely it is that people will use the services. ScotRail runs a good service to Edinburgh and train rather than travel by air. That is my point. Flying Glasgow, but again, people have to change trains to get to London from Manchester or Birmingham no longer on to the direct line to travel further south. People going makes sense, but it does make sense to travel from on business trips look for a direct service. New lines Aberdeen by air unless something is done to speed up have been opened from Stirling and Alloa; there is a the train line. I appreciate that that is not easy to do, but new line from the border and considerable improvements the Government must look at the issue seriously. along the Paisley corridor. All those things have improved My other point is about the high-speed rail network. rail travel in Scotland, but we still need links to the lines The Government have announced their proposal to go that will take us to continental Europe through the with the Y route, which would run up the centre of Eurostar network. To do that, unfortunately we need to England to the north-east and the west coast. It will rely on the Government in this place taking action on speed up journey times and, if I understand it correctly, the east coast line and the high-speed line. link up with the east coast line and provide a slightly My main point is to ask the Minister about the faster journey time at least as far as Edinburgh. As it rolling stock for the east coast line, which is the responsibility stands, however, although the proposal will considerably of her Department. As the hon. Members for Newton speed up rail travel to the north of England, it does not Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) and for Hayes and Harlington address the central problem of taking the line further (John McDonnell) pointed out, the new trains are vital north into Scotland. If the Government are serious to show that the Government are serious about investment about the issue, we must look at an extension of the line in our railways and in the important economic asset of to ensure faster travel times from Scotland and encourage the east coast line. I appreciate that the comprehensive people away from the longer domestic flight routes. spending review is tomorrow, but I urge the Minister to Unless we do that—and the same argument goes for the ensure that the rolling stock is purchased and that a east coast—we will not get the green benefits that we clear signal is given about the future of the line. hope for. As it stands, if I were to use the high-speed line to get home, I would probably have to change train twice to get to Montrose, and that will not significantly 10.27 am reduce the journey time. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman may recall from pleased to contribute to this important debate about the the coalition’s programme for government that we want future of the rail industry, particularly as this is my first a genuinely national network. Experience tells us that official outing as a member of the Opposition Front-Bench 195WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 196WH

[Andrew Gwynne] now a Transport Minister, was elected on a pledge in the Liberal Democrat manifesto on train fares for RPI transport team. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the minus 1%; and the Secretary of State, as the Minister Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on has reiterated today, has previously said that he has securing the debate today. made a commitment to fair fares. In recent years, a welcome consensus has developed Passengers will not pay more for less. If they see around the importance of support for the railways, increasing fares alongside cuts to plans for new capacity both the conventional and high-speed varieties. All and infrastructure, that could mean fewer people travelling parties recognise the important role that the rail industry by rail. What guarantees do we have that fare rises will must play in reducing the environmental impact of be matched by infrastructure and capacity improvements? travel, and welcome the growth in passenger numbers I appreciate that the Minister will be reluctant—perhaps that we have seen in recent years, to the point where unable—to add much today and we shall have to wait to more people travel by train today than at any point see what the Chancellor of the Exchequer says in tomorrow’s since the 1940s. comprehensive spending review. We need a system that works effectively and puts the Franchising was mentioned. The Government’s needs of passengers, and indeed freight, at its core. We consultation includes an intention to impose a far more all want a clean, safe and efficient train network in the relaxed and flexible specification. Flexibility can be a future, and one that is fit for purpose. The previous good thing, but there is a worry that a hands-off approach Labour Government were committed to providing that could allow train companies to become too focused on and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and short-term profit and cost cutting, rather than delivering Harlington (John McDonnell) said, we hope that the the best service for passengers and encouraging greater current Government recognise the need to continue the use of the railway. Will the Minister give me assurances investment in the railways that our country so desperately that that will not be the case and that sufficient specification needs. Given the comprehensive spending review tomorrow, to guarantee socially important services will remain? we may well soon see how committed the Government are to the future of the railway industry. Like my hon. It is encouraging that there is interest in rail franchise Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, I bids from not-for-profit, mutual or co-operative franchise also welcome the lobby today by trade unionists and the enterprises. Indeed, I note that my hon. Friend the TUC. We should remember that everyone is rightly Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) has secured a concerned about the cuts that might be announced in debate on that topic in Westminster Hall tomorrow. the near future. However, there are still unfair barriers that prevent such I would like to look at fares. The coalition’s programme bids from benefiting passengers and taxpayers, as we for government stated that they were saw recently with the attempt by the Co-op through its Go! Co-operative initiative, which would have been the “committed to fair pricing for rail travel.” UK’s first co-operative train operating company. Will the Minister comment on reports from Channel 4 News over the weekend which speculated that we could I shall refer briefly to some recent investments in rail. face double-digit rises in train fares over each year of It is important to acknowledge, as my hon. Friend the the spending review? It was reported that train fares are Member for Hayes and Harlington and others did, the expected to be more than 30% higher by 2015, and significant progress that the previous Labour Government industry sources pointed to a possible 40% hike in made in the past decade in rebuilding the country’s prices by 2015. transport infrastructure after many decades of under- Media reports also suggested that the cost of a typical investment, which happened, to be fair, under Governments commuter season ticket between Brighton and London of all political persuasions. could increase from £3,104 a year to £4,260 by 2015, We have completed the £9 billion programme to and between Swindon and London from £6,640 to modernise the west coast main line, resulting in massive £9,130. Does the Minister think that long-suffering reductions in journey times, as I thankfully know from train users will be willing to accept that? experience. It is now less than two hours from Stockport to London and, more importantly for me on a Thursday, Mrs Villiers: I would be grateful if the shadow Minister from London back to Stockport. would answer a question. Is he saying that if Labour had been re-elected, it would have cut rail fares? Performance, capacity, reliability and safety levels throughout the rail network have improved significantly. Andrew Gwynne: I am very grateful to the Transport High Speed 1 was up and running ahead of schedule, Minister for that, but of course it is my job to ask her and the stunning redevelopment of St Pancras station questions. Labour is in opposition and I am asking proved to be a fitting terminal for high-speed trains to whether she thinks that those kinds of speculative rail and from the continent. We delivered Britain’s first increases are fair on passengers. high-speed rail line and set out plans for a new north-south high-speed rail network—points made by my hon. Friend Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman should not believe the Member for Hayes and Harlington and by the hon. all he reads in the papers. The coalition is committed to Member for Angus (Mr Weir). fairness on rail fares. The announcement on the fares formula for the next few years will be made on Wednesday We more than doubled investment in local transport in the comprehensive spending review. from 1997, improving accessibility and helping to tackle social exclusion in local communities. By May 2010, Andrew Gwynne: I appreciate that, but it could well investment in transport had reached its highest level as mean that some lines end up with a pricing of RPI—the a proportion of national income for 30 years. In addition, retail prices index—plus 5%. That is particularly ironic, Labour finally achieved what previous Governments as the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), who is had tried but failed to do, in securing a funding deal for 197WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 198WH

Crossrail. That is one of the most ambitious transport in. Rail passenger numbers increased by 40% in the past projects of recent years and will add 30,000 high-value 10 years, and punctuality and quality of service improved jobs to London in the first 10 years and add an estimated steadily over that time, too. That is not an inheritance £20 billion to the UK’s gross domestic product. We also that the current Government should squander. set in place the £5.5 billion upgrading of Thameslink, which will introduce new cross-London routes and, with longer, more frequent trains, will allow for much- 10.38 am needed capacity, more seats and less crowding on key The Minister of State, Department for Transport routes in the capital. (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I congratulate the hon. Member The northern hub made it an ambition over the next for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on securing 20 years to increase the number of train services in the the debate, and congratulate the shadow Minister, the north, including cities such as Newcastle, Liverpool, hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield, by 40%—700 more on his recent appointment and his first address from the trains a day—making it possible for 3.5 million more Front Bench. passengers to travel by train every year. Those innovative I thought that it would be useful to consider the and challenging projects were either delivered or planned. questions that the hon. Lady helpfully repeated at the We need to continue that long-term focus on infrastructure end of her speech. First, she asked whether Sir Roy and service if we are to provide Britain with the transport McNulty’s work is informing the comprehensive spending system that it needs to compete in the new global review. Neither his interim report nor his final report economy. have yet been published or finalised, but I can assure the I wish to raise some specific issues with the Government. hon. Lady that Sir Roy has kept my right hon. Friend Transport cuts so far have totalled £683 million. That the Secretary of State and officials at the Department includes £108 million coming from Transport for London for Transport informed of his work, so that is feeding and £50 million from the better stations programme. I into the decisions being made on the comprehensive declare an interest, as that had a particular effect on spending review. The early draft work, as it has been Stockport station, which affects some of my constituents. going ahead, has helped us to feed into the Treasury The plans for hundreds of extra carriages to ease process and the CSR. overcrowding have been put on hold. The hon. Lady also asked whether I would write to In opposition, the Conservatives criticised the Labour the executives of the rail operating companies about Government in their 2009 rail review document, which remuneration. recognised the need for extra capacity but accused us of not taking the problem seriously. There is a need for John McDonnell: Before the Minister moves on from more trains, and I ask the Minister to tell us what the the McNulty report, I point out that I asked whether Government will do to alleviate that problem. she would meet the rail unions to discuss the McNulty report when the interim report is published in November. Can the Minister give me an assurance on electrification—an issue mentioned by my hon. Friend Mrs Villiers: I was going to come on to that, but I am the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling)—both of happy to answer it now. I have slight qualms about this the north-west routes and the great western main line, while the industrial action is continuing on the London which are important projects to both regions. Likewise, underground, because I am concerned about the huge can the Minister confirm that the Thameslink replacement inconvenience that that is causing passengers. As the of rolling stock will go ahead, which would in turn lead hon. Gentleman is keen for me to meet the unions, I am to the cascading of trains to the great western main line happy to do that, but I would still urge them to find an and the north-west routes? alternative way to resolve their dispute on the London The Government owe it to London’s business community underground. and the travelling public to be open about their plans for Crossrail. Will the Crossrail project be delivered in John McDonnell: The two issues are unconnected. We full, as proposed by the previous Labour Government? will make sure that the right hon. Lady can travel on a Will there be any cost cutting in areas such as engineering, non-strike day. which could lead to shorter platforms and less capacity? Will the number of stations on Crossrail remain unchanged? Mrs Villiers: I suppose that I am particularly sensitive May I ask also about the bonfire of the quangos that about the issue because the day on which I was due to we saw last week? What plans does the Minister have for meet the Transport Salaried Staffs Association coincided Passenger Focus and what will its functions be now? with a strike day so, for all sorts of reasons, it seemed How will disabled passengers be heard effectively now inappropriate to go ahead with the meeting. that the present Government have abolished the Disabled Turning to remuneration in the rail industry, the level Persons Transport Advisory Committee? The input of of pay across the industry clearly needs looking at in the disabled passengers should be important, and that body context of the McNulty review. I have discussed provided a unique opportunity for both disabled people remuneration levels with the train operators, and I and industry to represent their case to Government. expect that dialogue to continue. The Government need to look beyond the period of The hon. Lady’s third question was about introducing the comprehensive spending review. We need a long-term a windfall levy for the train operators. The Government vision for rail and we need to deliver these projects to have no plans to do that. Her fourth question was build on our ambition for a world-class rail service in whether I would meet her and colleagues to discuss this country. The previous Labour Government left the those who—tragically for them—were made redundant rail network in a far better condition than we found it by Jarvis. Yes, I would be happy to do that. 199WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 200WH

[Mrs Villiers] announcements made tomorrow in the spending review. It is clear that transport will not escape the pain that is On the franchising review, the hon. Lady asked the unfortunate consequence of the deficit that we have specifically about a clause on ScotRail and she will inherited from the previous Government, but I emphasise appreciate that that is a matter for the Scottish Government, that the Chancellor has made it clear that he recognises but she also asked a wider question about the approach the economic benefits of investment in infrastructure to that the UK Government will take in relation to the support economic growth, and that he recognises in franchises for which we are responsible. I am not convinced particular the importance of investment in transport that we should have a blanket withdrawal of that type infrastructure. of indemnity clause; there is a place for such clauses in The shadow Minister asked me about Crossrail. I am appropriate circumstances. She then asked whether the sure that he welcomed, as I did, the support expressed McNulty review, and the Government considerations by the Chancellor at the weekend for the Crossrail flowing from it, would look at an expanded role for the project. We have also expressed clear support for public sector and additional nationalisation. That is Birmingham New Street, we are taking forward plans certainly one of the options that Sir Roy will consider. on high-speed rail and we are working very hard on The hon. Lady also asked about ticket offices and the Thameslink. Our focus in all those projects is to ensure loss of guards. In many cases those are matters for those that we value-engineer costs down to keep the projects operating services, but the overall approach in relation affordable and deliverable within the spending envelope to the franchises is governed by the ticketing settlement that is now available. agreement. We need to look at reforming that, to ensure that we get it right, but it is obviously important to John McDonnell: I emphasise that, although there is consult properly with the communities affected by the a commitment to the Crossrail project overall, people decisions. are concerned about the paring down of the project and The hon. Lady also talked about the strike action on the missed opportunities that might result from that. the London underground and the loss of guards. I am For example, in my own constituency, Hayes and Harlington convinced that we need to modernise working practices station is to be redeveloped. If there is any paring down in the rail industry. I am concerned, as I already said to in the investment of such station projects, we will miss the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John the chance to include modal transfer opportunities and McDonnell), about the damage to the London economy to ensure the integration of our local transport network. caused by the strike action that is taking place. We have to recognise that the way in which people buy tickets Mrs Villiers: Both the Secretary of State and I have has changed, and that rightly will impact on London repeatedly talked about our support for delivering the Underground’s decisions about the deployment of its whole project, and it is worth bearing in mind the staff. excellent work done by the team behind Crossrail to find lower-cost ways to deliver the same transport benefits, Julie Hilling: Does the Minister consider important and to deliver the whole project. the feeling of safety of passengers travelling on the It is true that there has been significant good news on underground, and on the rail network generally? Stations the railways in recent years. Since privatisation there can often be very lonely, scary places for all rail users have been some striking successes, with train punctuality but particularly for women travelling alone. The fact now at record levels and a significant increase in the that we have staff in ticket offices and on platforms number of passenger journeys. Also, the number of increases both the feeling of safety and the actual miles travelled on the railways has gone up by 75%. safety. Since privatisation, therefore, a story of managed decline has been transformed into one of significant growth. Mrs Villiers: Forgive me; I am probably trespassing Although the recession has subdued that trend to a on devolved matters because the relationship between degree, we expect it to resume once the economy recovers. London Underground and its employees is of course a So, that is some of the good news about the UK’s matter for which the Mayor is politically accountable. I railways. But the downside is that the cost of running have to say, however, that of course I am concerned the railways did rise dramatically under our Labour about security for women using public transport—I am predecessors. If we are to deliver the improvements to a woman myself—but there is a real argument for services and capacity that hon. Members have called for saying that staff deployed on platforms are more valuable today, and that passengers want, we have to find a way to passenger security than those stuck behind ticket to get costs down. The disastrous deficit left for us by office windows. I am not sure, therefore, that the security our predecessors makes it essential that we drive out issue can justify the retention of ticket offices. Security cost inefficiencies on the railways, and we owe it to focuses on whether people have access to staff in stations, passengers to do our very best to get costs down. which is not the same as whether a ticket office is open. I shall go on to some of the wider issues addressed by Andrew Gwynne: Does the Minister not also recognise the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran. I would that it was the investment by the previous Labour like to assure the House that the coalition has put rail at Government that led to the very improvements that she the heart of its strategy for transport, in terms of has just championed as a cause of privatisation? re-energising our economy, reducing carbon emissions and addressing congestion on our roads. I welcome the Mrs Villiers: I certainly recognise that the previous support shown today for taking into account the concerns Government invested in the railways, and we would of both passengers and rail freight—a point rightly expect investment to continue under the current made by the shadow Minister. Much will depend on the Government, given the huge importance of the railways 201WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 202WH to our economy and to our climate change ambitions. I My officials are working with Merseytravel, the passenger covered the fares issue briefly in response to the shadow transport executive for Merseyside, to explore whether Minister, but I shall repeat my comments on it. The to devolve the running of the track used by the Merseyrail coalition is committed to fairness in rail fares, but the franchise so that it is wholly governed by local decision reality is that the crisis in the public finances means that making. That project could help to provide an important we might have to take some difficult decisions on fares, benchmark against which to measure Network Rail’s as in other areas. As I have said, I am unable to give performance. further details on the fares formula until it is announced Another key issue is whether further contestability for the coming years in the CSR on Wednesday. could be introduced for some of the work now carried There has been much discussion about the McNulty out exclusively by Network Rail. Again, there is a process, which is focused on trying to understand why Scottish example that is worth considering. In 2006, for the cost of the railways is higher in this country than in example, Transport Scotland opened up about £20 million other parts of Europe, and I am sure that today’s of rail funding for smaller-scale enhancements at stations discussion will contribute to and inform that process. It and asked for offers from Network Rail and the train is important that a range of options are considered, and operators. By the end of the bidding process—if I recall as part of our drive to deliver high-quality rail services correctly, this was under the Labour Administration— at an affordable cost we need to consider how we reform £19 million of the £20 million available was allocated Network Rail. Not even the levels of taxpayer support directly to the passenger operators because their bids over recent years have succeeded in turning the company were judged to be better than Network Rail’s. A similar into the customer-oriented organisation that train and approach has been used for the national stations freight operators want. That fact was driven home when improvement plan in England. the rail regulator published the figures, to which the The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran referred: talked at length about franchise reform, which is the the potential 40% efficiency gap between Network Rail second limb of our work to improve the railways’ and European comparators. I acknowledge that there performance for passengers and to get better value for are always problems comparing Network Rail precisely money. The Department for Transport has recently with different railways in the rest of Europe, but these concluded a consultation, and we are considering the things should sound a warning bell that there is an issue responses. As I assured the hon. Lady during her speech, to be addressed. If we are to be fair to passengers and we want to encourage greater private sector investment the taxpayer, we need to find a way to make Network in return for potentially longer franchises. We would Rail more efficient. continue to impose legally binding contractual obligations in franchises, including on the scale of the investment Katy Clark: I think that it is accepted on all sides that promised. We hope and believe that longer franchises there are issues to be addressed; indeed, that was why will help us to deliver the investment and improvements the previous Government set up the review in the first that passengers want, including better stations. Longer place. However, the Minister will have listened to what I franchises should also make it easier for train operators said about the concern about the methodology used in to invest in long-term relationships with Network Rail the ORR report. Is she willing to hear further and their work force, which are crucial to running the representations about that from those in the industry railways efficiently. who have concerns? Given the publicity that the issue We want to move to a system in which franchises are has had in the press, there is clearly a view that the less heavily specified. In response to the shadow Minister’s Government will listen to the ORR report rather than questions, however, I can assure him that we will continue taking a more forensic look at how other European to set demanding outcomes for train operators to achieve railways operate. in terms of the quality of service that they deliver. We will have demanding and legally binding requirements to protect the interests of the passenger and the taxpayer. Mrs Villiers: Of course I would be happy to accept The difference is that in setting those outcomes, we further representations. One reason why we have continued propose to give the people running the railway more with the McNulty study, which was set up by our flexibility over how they deliver them. predecessors, is precisely to find the true picture of the cost of Network Rail. The work done by the ORR is valuable, but it is just one point of view. Sir Roy is Katy Clark: The Minister will recall that, in my initial drawing on views and research from across the rail contribution, I quoted the Government’s consultation industry, including internationally, to find out what the document, which said that European procurement law facts really are. referred to 15 years and that that was why a starting point of 12 to 15 years should be the standard length of Whatever reform we ultimately select, we will need to franchises. Does she not accept that that rings alarm stress-test it in relation to the interests of freight operators. bells? Will she explain why there is a link between It is vital that we get the right balance between the European procurement law and her starting point? interests of the railways’ passengers and freight customers. In looking at the options for reforming Network Mrs Villiers: Obviously, the UK Government are Rail, it is interesting to look at what has been done bound by European procurement law to procure public north of the border. Network Rail has decentralised its contracts in a fair and objective way. In the context of Scottish operations, and accounting separation has been rail franchises, it sets a top limit of 22 and a half years introduced. We need to look carefully at whether such for contracts that involve investment. The reference to decentralisation might improve Network Rail efficiency European procurement law was included in the consultation in other parts of the UK. document because it governs the maximum that we can 203WH Railway Industry19 OCTOBER 2010 Railway Industry 204WH

[Mrs Villiers] It will become more and more of a greener option as we decarbonise the electricity-generating network. The pace deliver in terms of rail franchises. Throughout the at which we can deliver electrification will obviously process of negotiating franchises, however, we will look depend on affordability and the priority of tackling the to secure the best deal possible for the taxpayer, and we deficit. Much will depend on the comprehensive spending will ensure that we continue to protect the passenger review announcement tomorrow. Of course, these decisions interest. Train operators that do not comply with the are also linked with the work on the high-level output obligations that we impose on them will face sanctions, specification rolling stock programme, Thameslink and which, in extreme cases, could include removing the the future of the IEP. An announcement will be made franchise. on those in due course. In the few minutes that I have available, I want to talk Lastly, in the brief time that I have, I want to reiterate a little about the inter-city express programme in response the Government’s support for high-speed rail, which is to the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir). I can assure a vital upgrade for our transport network. We recently him that we have no plans to scrap through services to announced our support for a Y-shaped network, with a destinations such as Aberdeen and Inverness, which he line to Manchester and trains running on from there to mentioned. As he said, the report produced by Sir Andrew the west coast main line and Scotland, and another line Foster referred to one of the alternative strategies for splitting off at Birmingham and going through the east the IEP, which involved ending those through services. midlands and South Yorkshire to Leeds, with trains, As I said, however, we have no plans to do that. We again, running on to the existing network and destinations recognise the economic value of such services, and we further north. We will consult on that shortly. We will have certainly received strong representations from the also have regard to the communities affected by the Scottish Government and Scottish colleagues about the line’s local impact before taking final decisions on whether importance of retaining them. to go ahead and what route to take. We appreciate that realistically these lines can be delivered only in phases, Mr Weir: Will the Minister give way? but our ultimate goal is to deliver the national network, for which I am sure there will be cross-party support. Mrs Villiers: I am sorry, but I have only two or three minutes, and I want to respond to an awful lot of Much has been achieved since privatisation, but we points. need a fresh focus on reducing costs in the railways that The hon. Gentleman and others talked about the we already have. We need a drive to deliver high-speed electrification of the railways. We included our support rail because of the huge benefits that it can provide. The for electrification in our programme for government coalition is determined to meet both those challenges, and we recognise its benefits. It will support our and I welcome the representations that I have received sustainability objectives and improve services for passengers. on them today. 205WH 19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 206WH

Historic Towns and Cities on the project. I understand that English Heritage was difficult to contact and that it did not engage with the consultation until the end of the process was at hand. 11 am However, it submitted its views, and at the end of the Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I developer’s consultation the plans were redesigned, to am grateful for the opportunity for this debate on take account of concerns that were raised, including historic towns. I understand from some hon. Members initial concerns that English Heritage had highlighted. that there is debate about what constitutes a historic After that redesign stage English Heritage seemed town—I see my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey happy, and accordingly decreed that the plans could be (Stuart Andrew) is present; but definitions are definitions. dealt with at the local level. The council then set aside I spoke in a previous Westminster Hall debate about two whole days for the planning application to be the economic development of seaside towns, and that considered, at the end of which, in October 2008, the enabled me to discuss some of the problems of the town plans were passed, with a large majority—15 to four. of Fleetwood, in my constituency. Today’s debate gives Lancaster city council has continued to support the me the opportunity to raise the issues that face another project since. I should point out that there is no overall large part of my constituency—the city of Lancaster—and control on the council. In fact, there are six political especially the issues concerning its economy and future groups, and five in the cabinet, so it may be imagined growth prospects. The debate will also give others a how difficult it is to reach any kind of agreement at any chance to talk about the economies of their constituencies, time. and to raise areas of concern with the Minister. Most of the site that is due to be developed is flat I want to cover four main themes in my speech: already. Almost half the land that is designated for heritage versus development; transport; tourism; and development is currently car parking space. However, more general support for business and economic part of the Mitchell’s brewery site is very old. It has regeneration in Lancaster and the surrounding area. I 18th century buildings, which would, at one point, have am well aware that some of those issues are not the been of significance. However, the decision of the Secretary direct responsibility of the Minister, but they are all of State, on the initial advice of English Heritage, was cross-cutting subjects that will ultimately affect the future not to list any of the buildings. It was considered that of Lancaster, and I hope that you will give us some Mitchell’s brewery was “too altered” and not of sufficient latitude, Mr Dobbin. architectural significance Lancaster’s heritage is what makes it unique. It has an “to merit listing in a national context.” ancient history, which is glaringly obvious in the fabric Moreover, the adviser’s report continued: of its buildings and the layout of its roads. That is an “Mitchell’s brewery has been assessed for listing on two previous economic strength, because it feeds tourism, but it can occasions and was found to be not of sufficient quality or historic also prove a drawback when it comes to developing the interest to merit addition to the statutory list.” city. There is an obvious tension between preserving the It added: ancient and historic elements that give the city its character and soul, and allowing much-needed development to “The recent application for listing contains no new information, take place, so that residents can have access to 21st century and thus there is no justification for revising the earlier assessments facilities and business can expand and create jobs. Often, that the site was not listable.” those tensions can be resolved easily, but equally often However, at the last minute—and hon. Members may positive proposals for change can be stymied. I want to see where I am going with this—at the end of that focus on one example. drawn-out process, almost five years after the plans Lancaster lacks a large-scale department store were first conceived and after the local council had development, which means that local people and outside approved the development, English Heritage performed custom must travel to Preston, Manchester or, increasingly, a U-turn. That seems to have been on the basis of a new Kendal, to obtain access to the types of stores that concern lodged by a member of the campaign group residents of other cities take for granted. That means Save our City and evidence submitted by regional advisory that we do not have the trade that other cities have. We staff at English Heritage. English Heritage subsequently pride ourselves on the individuality of our small and submitted a new report to the then responsible Minister, family-owned shops, which is one of the strengths of who ruled that the plans must be put on hold. the Lancaster shopping experience, but there is a lack of What precisely had changed? The developers have balance in the retail offer that is available to attract been trying to establish the exact reasons for the U-turn outside custom. Accordingly, proposals were put forward, ever since and are seeking a way forward. My predecessor by a company called Centros, to develop land owned by as Member of Parliament for Lancaster, who is now my Lancaster city council and Mitchell’s brewery, Lancaster’s hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North own brewery, for the creation of a new shopping complex. (Mr Wallace), sought information from the Department The complex would include a 97,500 square feet Debenhams for Culture, Media and Sport through the Freedom of store, a residential area, improvements to local theatres Information Act. However, the Department has been and an enhancement of the canal-side environment. less than forthcoming. The information released, especially That represents an investment of £150 million, and the the report to the Minister, is heavily redacted, which possibility of 1,000 extra jobs for the area. provides us with little opportunity to understand what There has been opposition to the scheme, as will actually went on. always happen. It is mainly co-ordinated through the To be fair, I understand that English Heritage is now campaign group Save Our City, but in general Mr and engaging with the developers again, but also that it is Mrs Lancaster have the feeling that something needs to undertaking a new analysis of the site, brick by brick, happen. The developer took two years to consult extensively with no end to the process in sight. I sometimes wonder 207WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 208WH

[Eric Ollerenshaw] tourist attraction. We await events, but that is why I am trying to talk to the duchy, the Ministry of Justice, the whether, if English Heritage had existed in 1945, every council, prison employees and others to find the best bomb site in Britain would have been declared an way forward. I hope I am wished some luck. historic site. Obviously, genuine heritage needs to be Transportation, too, affects a lot of historic cities, protected. It is not in the interest of the city council to and has a role to play in economic development. The do anything to detract significantly from the beauty and narrow lay-out of streets in historic towns was often history of its built environment. That would only lessen planned centuries ago, with little regard for modern the tourism economy and detract from the character of modes of transport. Accordingly, transport links and a beautiful city. However, when a local council and local road congestion are other problems faced by places businesses come up with a sensible scheme that would such as Lancaster. retain the character of a city but also give residents access to better, modern facilities, and provide regeneration Often transport patterns have changed. New towns and jobs, surely it goes against the grain of our new and cities have sprung up in recent decades, and new localism agenda to allow central Government to veto housing estates or industrial sites have been built, meaning those plans. Moreover, if English Heritage has the that journeys are being made to places to which there power to interrupt the plans at the last minute, surely it was no need to travel in the past. Lancaster suffers must have a responsibility to be open about why it has particularly badly from traffic congestion. made such decisions and to complete whatever other One of the main contributors to the problem is the surveys it feels are necessary as quickly as possible, so as heavy vehicles travelling to Morecambe and the port of not to delay further such an important scheme. Heysham, because there is no link between the port and I have one other point to make on the matter before I the M6. Traffic comes off the motorway and through move on. If English Heritage is to have resources pared Lancaster city, forcing queues to form as traffic waits to back as part of the comprehensive spending review, will get over the only two bridges linking Lancaster and the already slow, drawn-out out process of its involvement Morecambe en route to the port of Heysham. Plans for slow down similar applications in future? This is a time a link road have lain on the drawing board for some when we need private investment and jobs, not least in 50 years—but there has been no action. Now the plans the north-west of England and certainly in Lancaster. for the link road are part of the proposals put on hold by the Department for Transport in the run-up to the I have mentioned the obvious benefit that tourism spending review. brings to historic cities. Lancaster is no different. According to the council’s website, the visitor economy is worth The link road has the support of the vast majority of some £260 million a year to the area within the city businesses in the area and is championed by Lancaster council boundary. Many other cities have a focal point chamber of commerce. I support the road, as does my for their tourism industry: for Chester, its Roman history next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for and walls; for York, the minster; and for Ludlow, its Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), through castle. Lancaster, too, has a castle, which is historically whose constituency the road would run. The road is significant and contains the only remaining part of a important for future growth in Lancaster and, without building that was constructed by Henry IV; it is still it, links to the city are poor and businesses will continue owned by the Duke of Lancaster, Her Majesty the to suffer. Moreover, the port of Heysham is to be Queen. improved, with its connections to the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland, and there is the possibility of a new However, the castle is not as big a tourist attraction nuclear power station being built at Heysham, so we as it could be. Large parts of it are still used as part of need the road to help such expansions take place. Those the oldest functioning prison in the world, leased by the expansions should lead to new jobs for the area. I also Ministry of Justice from the Duchy of Lancaster. Courts hope that in the not-too-distant future the scheme will also still operate inside the castle. The Prisons Minister be approved and we will get our link road, after such a has recently announced his Department’s wish to terminate long wait. its lease of the castle and it is suggested that the Duchy, together with the local council and other interested However, the link road would not be a panacea for parties, can operate it as a more highly specialised traffic congestion. Local transport movements of smaller tourist attraction. The council is certainly keen that that vehicles would still mean congestion, especially at the should happen, having sought such an outcome for choke points approaching the bridges. Local transport several years and having included the possibility in its schemes need to be funded to allow better car tourism strategy document of a few years ago. movements—again, there will be tension between planning and keeping the character of the city centre. We need to Once again, we can see the problem of tension between encourage a modal shift to buses and other forms of the old and the new, although in this instance both the sustainable transport. Once again, reduced congestion status quo and a change of use for the building have can only help local business. economic consequences for the city. If the prison is closed, many prison staff will lose their jobs or have to I turn now to specific regeneration and business relocate. The Prison Service will lose one of its best support measures. I welcome those Government decisions performing prisons, despite the ancient nature of the that are likely to help small businesses, such as a further building. At the same time, there is a degree of scepticism extension to small business rate relief and a tapered about where the funding will come from to remove a drop in corporation tax over the next few years. They prison from an ancient castle and to terminate a lease—a are welcome and will encourage growth across the city. lease from the duchy—and, in the present financial Lancaster has one of the highest proportions of climate, about whether the county or the city council public sector workers in the country, and the announcement will have the wherewithal then to convert it into a major on the comprehensive spending review tomorrow will 209WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 210WH lead to a reduction in the public sector work force. So, I expertise at the university of York campus. Engineering, am pleased that the Government have established the which still employs thousands of people in York, draws regional growth fund, which will create a £1 billion pot on the city’s long railway heritage, and there are, as I to help the transition from dependence on public sector mentioned, thousands of jobs in tourism and retail. jobs to the private sector. The fund will be vital in The York economy performs particularly well. Almost supporting private enterprise outside London and the 80% of the working-age population in York is in south-east. I hope that Lancaster and Fleetwood, and employment, compared with less than 75% nationally. the surrounding area, will get their fair share of the Only 6.8% of people in the city of York have no support package. qualifications at all, compared with more than That leads me to my final point. I am pleased that the 12% nationally. More than a third of the population in Government have stuck to their promise to abolish York—36%—have a national vocational qualification regional development agencies. Those bodies were of level 4 or above, compared with only 29% nationally. bureaucratic and, in the north-west, a great deal of their Only 4% of young people in York are not in education, funds ended up in the big city conurbations of Manchester employment or training, compared with something like and Liverpool. With respect to those cities, it too often 14% nationally. seems to us in Lancaster that, for many people in In terms of business growth, York again does well. London, the north-west seems to end on the outskirts Between 2000 and last year, the number of businesses in of Manchester and Liverpool. York grew from 4,645 to 5,820. No one could possibly The new local enterprise partnerships, therefore, should say that York’s exceptionally rich heritage is an obstacle allow smaller, more focused efforts at development, to economic activity or development. In fact, it is an designed around the needs of more homogeneous asset. communities. I know that there are a number of bids in There is a citizen-led campaign in York for the city to Lancashire at the moment and I hope that we will end gain UNESCO world heritage status, which I support. up with an LEP model that achieves the aim of bringing There is no evidence that Edinburgh castle and the adequate, properly targeted investment into our area Royal Mile have suffered as a result of the city obtaining while providing suitable economies of scale. UNESCO world heritage status. I hope that the York In conclusion, Lancaster knows, as does the rest of bid will get support from York city council and from the the country, that it must face up to the deficit legacy of Department for Culture, Media and Sport. It would in the previous Government. It knows that Government no way interfere with development, because York and support, in terms of investment, will be tight. So please its planning authorities have to safeguard the heritage allow Lancaster, when it believes it has the local wherewithal, whether or not we have UNESCO world heritage status. to encourage new investment and to protect what is best When the developers were digging the foundations of in its historical heritage. Please do not allow Government the Coppergate site 30 years ago, they uncovered Viking agencies and quangos to get in the way. Jorvik. Far from demanding money from the Government to dig the site, the York Archaelogical Trust made the 11.14 am dig a commercial success, in the same way in which the Jorvik museum is now a commercial asset to York as Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I congratulate the well as an important guardian of the city’s rich historical hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric heritage. The site draws visitors to the Coppergate area, Ollerenshaw) on securing this important debate. I listened which is a shopping centre as well, so it is good for with care to what he said. business, too. The same is happening in Hungate. The Striking a balance between preserving heritage and Archaeological Trust is currently digging the site in a generating jobs for people in the present day is important. way that is compatible with development. However, I do not take the view that heritage is an York’s historic assets, such as the minster and the obstacle to development. If I look at my own constituency, National Railway Museum, are treasures of national the city of York, I see the valuable built heritage as an and international importance. As such, they need support enormous economic asset. from national Government. I welcome the decisions York is especially rich in built heritage. The Multangular that were taken in the Government’s quango cull this tower is, I think, the only extant Roman building in week not to get rid of the independent status of the Britain that still rises 10 metres above the ground. The National Railway Museum and, particularly, not to minster and city walls were mentioned by the hon. merge English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund, Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood. York has mediaeval which are two bodies with separate roles. English Heritage streets such as Shambles and Georgian streets such as has a regulatory role and makes grants available from St Leonard’s place, as well as Victorian architecture. public funds, whereas the Heritage Lottery Fund makes Great museums, such as the National Railway museum, grants available from lottery receipts, and we need both the Jorvik Viking centre, the Castle museum and the bodies. I warmly welcome confirmation of the Heritage Yorkshire museum, and the race course all attract visitors Lottery Fund’s grant of £9.7 million towards the restoration to York in their millions. In the last year for which I of York minster’s great east window, which is the largest have figures, 2008, 7.1 million tourists visited York—2009 mediaeval work of art anywhere in the world. It is a figures will be out soon—and they spent £450 million in Yorkshire icon and has been for centuries. It will cost the city, creating thousands of jobs for local people. some £25 million to restore, and our generation must Those historic assets, when combined with extremely not fail to maintain an international treasure with the good schools, two excellent universities and York college, status of York minster. in a brand-new building, have made the city of York a Yorkshire Forward had promised two substantial magnet for investment. There are new industries such as grants to heritage bodies in York. Some £5 million had those based on bioscience, which have grown out of been pledged towards the cost of re-displaying the 211WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 212WH

[Hugh Bayley] needed, we could put up something appropriate that is made of cast iron rather than concrete. Such things do exhibition in the National Railway Museum’s great not cost a fortune. We could set up a committee to plan hall—which has not been re-displayed since the museum in a different way. Given that York and other historic was first built—and £1 million was to go towards restoring cities are such valuable places for running businesses, the minster’s great east window. As a result of the developers tend to want erect buildings that are in Government’s decision to abolish regional development keeping with the surroundings. agencies, those grants were withdrawn. Although I do I know that many other hon. Members want to not want to get into an argument now about the benefits speak, so I will conclude. I am grateful to the hon. of regional development agencies today, I do want to Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood for obtaining say to the Minister that if a vehicle for distributing this debate and giving me the opportunity to say a few resources to generate employment is going to change, words. which it is, it is important that the new mechanisms recognise the importance of heritage as a generator of employment, and that there are times when grants need 11.27 pm to be made to support heritage because of the economic Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I congratulate the and employment consequences of so doing. hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric I know that we live in straitened economic times, but Ollerenshaw) on calling this debate. However, my sentiments there is much that the Government can do to support and sympathies are more with the hon. Member for the valuable heritage of historic towns and cities such as York Central (Hugh Bayley), which is perhaps not York that does not necessarily cost a fortune. Sir Ron surprising, given that I represent Britain’s oldest recorded Cooke, a former vice-chancellor of the university of town. For the record, it was the first capital of Roman York and a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, Britain when London was just a few huts on the mud recently wrote the interesting document, “Downtown banks of the river Thames. York: a practical manifesto”. Although I do not expect When we talk about historic towns and cities, we the Minister to read it because I know that mountains must recognise the need for central Government. They of paper go across ministerial desks, I commend it both cannot be left to the local council of the day. We are, to his officials and to officials in the Department for after all, today’s custodians of yesterday for tomorrow. Culture, Media and Sport. There are some big ticket Short-term, quick decisions that are made can have a items such as major economic developments to which lasting legacy of the wrong sort. I say thank goodness the Government would have to make a contribution. for English Heritage. None the less, I wish that it had The York central site, for instance, is a large one—it is more powers in the decision-making process rather probably two thirds of the size of the area within York’s than had its powers weakened. Often, it takes a wider city walls—is behind York station bounded by railway view. Is it right that a local authority should, to all lines with difficult access. It is a huge development site intents and purposes, be lumbered with the financial adjacent to the city walls, which provides enormous consequences of maintaining national heritage? Colchester opportunities for York’s continued economic development. has the largest surviving Roman walls of any town or Without some Government funding for access roads, city in this country. They go back some 2,000 years, and for instance, that development will not take place. they desperately need £500,000 to maintain them. In his paper, Sir Ron Cooke says: Colchester has applied for world heritage site status. It deserves such recognition not only in view of its “York’s inner-city streetscape, its ambience and public realm, status as the first capital of Roman Britain but because, are unique and spectacular resources that are fundamental to the in December 2004, the remains of the only Roman city’s present and future prosperity. They are amongst the city’s chariot-racing circus, or stadium, were discovered. The special selling points, not just for visitors, but also for residents, circus would have been a massive structure, accommodating entrepreneurs, investors, job creators, employees on the move, and students.” 16,000 people in an all-seater stadium. We are lucky that the Victorians who designed the Colchester garrison He says that those streets are the stage on which everyone in the mid-1850s left a huge expanse of greenery between plays. He makes the point that through planning decisions, the barracks to the east and the barracks to the west we sometimes undermine or wreck that very special without even realising that they were doing so. The ambience. In the 1960s for example, some concrete and barracks have now moved out to the new barracks site glass buildings—thankfully, only a few—were built in and the standing requirement in Colchester for planning the centre of York. We recently gave permission for a is that there must be an archaeological dig. In the dig at rail engineering firm to build a block that overshadows that site, the circus was discovered. the city walls. Those planning mistakes should not be Colchester has a pre-Roman history. It was the home repeated, as they undermine what is special about York of the Trinovantes, the local Celtic tribe. The Romans and what draws investment to York. invaded in 43AD and it was in the ancient British Sir Ron Cooke also mentions signage. We litter settlement that was located two miles to the south of everywhere with street signs. Sometimes, a big illuminated modern Colchester—if we can call a Roman town concrete or stainless steel monstrosity is erected in the “modern”—that eight Celtic kings offered their surrender wrong place. There is one such sign at the end of to the Romans. Shambles, which is the prettiest mediaeval street anywhere In 60AD, Colchester had a visit from Queen Boudicca, in Britain. The signs can be taken down; they are not ruler of the Iceni tribe in Norfolk, who destroyed the needed. The streets of York were not built for motor town. In those days, the town, which subsequently cars, and most of them are pedestrianised anyway, so became a Roman city, had a population of 10,000, a cars do not go up and down them. If a bollard is really huge figure for that time. Remarkably, Colchester is the 213WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 214WH only Roman city that today does not have city status. history. If that £25 million had been spent on the When I queried that at the time of the millennium city various Roman and Norman sites that I have mentioned, appeal and the golden jubilee city appeal, I was advised it would have been far better spent. that the only person who could remove city status once So that is where we are. I want to conclude by it had been granted was the head of state. The head of referring to a relatively small part of the history of state who granted city status to Colchester was the Britain’s oldest recorded town. The world’s most popular Roman emperor. There is no record from the subsequent nursery rhyme was composed in Colchester in 1805. 2,000 years of the head of state ever withdrawing the That nursery rhyme is “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star”. I title of “city” from Colchester and I put it to you, will not recite all of it. However, the house where the Mr Dobbin, that justice demands that we should have Taylor sisters wrote it, which is in West Stockwell street, that city status reinstated. is currently on the market. I believe that the purchase of We have to be careful with our historic towns and that building and its promotion as the place where the cities. I can show people around my town and show world’s most popular nursery rhyme was composed them that the Roman street grid pattern still exists would draw in more visitors than the visual arts facility, today. The high street is the Roman road—people can which will also require an annual subsidy from the see that it is still straight. Unfortunately, in the early public purse of £600,000. So, on top of the £25 million 1970s in a street parallel to the high street, the “experts” that it cost to build an arts facility that most people in said that the street pattern ought to be broken up. Colchester did not want but that was dumped on them, Consequently, a street that had stood for nearly 2,000 taxpayers will have to find £600,000 a year to subsidise years—or rather the line of that street—has now been the facility. As I have already indicated, if we had obliterated by a new shopping precinct, because that is national financial support for our national heritage— what the “experts” said should happen in the early whether that heritage is Roman settlements or “Twinkle, 1970s. However, about 10 years ago other “experts” said Twinkle, Little Star”—that money would be better invested that that was the worst thing that had ever happened to and it would bring in the tourists. Colchester, so we have to be careful with “experts”. We are also a Saxon town. In fact, the tower of Holy 11.36 am Trinity church was built by the Saxons before the Normans came and it was built out of Roman remains. Furthermore, Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I want to the Norman castle, which is vastly superior to any other congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster castle that still remains in Britain and indeed is the and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on securing this debate, largest Norman castle in Europe, was also built largely which is of the utmost importance to his constituents out of Roman remains. and mine. Like Lancaster, York and Colchester, Chester I mention the Norman castle because it also needs is a beautiful historic city that has been economically loving and regular care and attention, as do the Roman successful for almost 2,000 years. As with many historic walls, the Roman circus and Gosbecks archaeological towns and cities, Chester was traditionally a county and park—or rather, Gosbecks would be an archaeological market town, and the modern Chester still has a very park if the Heritage Lottery Fund had coughed up the important sub-regional role, providing jobs, shops and money that was sought in the park’s application to entertainment for a huge area that stretches across achieve such status. north Wales, Cheshire, the Wirral and north Shropshire. We cannot expect a local authority to fund nationally As a result of their history, culture and pleasant acclaimed historic tourist attractions. So I am making a surroundings, historic towns have tended to be very special plea that we need to provide national funding popular and desirable residential locations. However, for such attractions. However, it is quite interesting that such popularity and desirability bring about their own the last Government recognised that tourism had an problems, in terms of high house prices and the difficulty important role and it provided millions of pounds, that many local people face in affording housing in through the Arts Council and urban regeneration funding, towns such as Chester. In the 21st century, we also face for the arts. In the case of Colchester, what they thought a threat to our traditional economy, which is based on would make a great tourist attraction was not all that being a retail and tourism centre, from increased Roman or Norman heritage, nor the fact that Colchester competition, internet shopping, out-of-town retail parks was one of the last major scenes of the English civil and cheap foreign travel. war—during the siege of Colchester, Colchester lost In Chester, we also have a problem that other historic more lives within the Roman walls than it did during towns and cities have not had to deal with so much. the two world wars. No, it was decided that what That problem is that we have not always taken advantage Colchester needed was not something to do with history of our historic assets; we have not looked after them but rather a visual arts facility to promote contemporary and we have not maximised their potential for economic Latin American art. Such art is a subject that the people advantage. We look to places such as York and see what of Colchester constantly talk about—actually, I think has been done there, and we in Chester want to follow not. in the footsteps of the people of York and ensure that The original project price of that facility was we are as successful as York has been. £16 million. Today, the construction of the facility is There are a few challenges and opportunities that I running approximately four years late and £8.5 million would like to discuss. First, we must ensure that we all over budget. I recognise that that money came from make maximum use and take maximum advantage of different pots, but I am criticising the previous Government the assets that we already have. In Chester, we have a for channelling it through “culture” when, in the case of thriving shopping centre and we are already a world- Britain’s oldest recorded town, it should have been renowned visitor destination. We also have the most channelled through “history” and gone into the town’s successful zoo in the UK, the Roman walls and 215WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 216WH

[Stephen Mosley] middle. In Chester, we also have only two bridges crossing the river, so road traffic faces severe difficulties getting amphitheatre, and the Chester Rows, a site that is from one side of the city into the city and out. That is another applicant for UNESCO world heritage status. exacerbated by the fact that, like Lancaster, people have Furthermore, Chester Races draws tens of thousands of to travel through the city centre to get from one side of people to our city. Chester to the other. We have to get away from through However, we need to do more to ensure that we traffic being funnelled through city centres. Suitable continue to prosper in the 21st century. In the future, we bypasses that allow traffic to avoid the centre are, in need to give the people who come to Chester more. many cases, a desperate requirement, and, to that end, When people go shopping in Chester, we need to ensure like my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and that they get more than just the shops. We have to Fleetwood, I would like to highlight the long-standing ensure that we entertain them and inform them as well. and desperate need for a Chester western relief road, People have to know that if they come shopping in one which would not only relieve congestion within the city of our historic towns there will be things happening—street centre but open up a large area on the English-Welsh entertainment, museums, galleries, theatre, a wide range border for economic redevelopment in future. of restaurants, interesting historic sites, and parks and When people get in to the city centre, they still face open spaces in which they can relax. The same is true problems. Car parks are often worth more as development with tourism. sites than car parks, which leads either to sky-high car In Chester, we have been successful in getting people parking charges or to a shortage of parking spaces in to come to our city on day trips, but we are aware that the city centre. We all want a reduction in unnecessary day-trippers do not spend huge amounts of money in car travel, but for many historic towns, especially those the city; they tend to come in on the coach, spend a day with a large travel-to-work or travel-to-shop catchment there, have a look around and disappear again, without area, car travel is necessary. Over-expensive parking or putting their hands in their pockets. We have to ensure a lack of parking has only one effect: it discourages that we start selling our historic towns and cities as a people from visiting the city centre and encourages package. We want to encourage people to come to them to travel to out-of-town locations instead. To Chester and, not only come for the day but spend a combat that, local authorities have to ensure that there couple of nights. They could see the zoo one day or go is adequate low-cost car parking. New and novel pricing to the races, then spend a day in the city centre going structures need to be introduced as well. For instance, shopping or walking the walls and seeing some of our Chester has a free-after-three scheme, which allows and historic sites, such as the cathedral, and perhaps on a encourages local residents into the town in late afternoons third day they could go to north Wales, into Snowdonia, and early evenings—traditionally quiet periods for the or to Liverpool for the day. People need to know that if city centre shops—while ensuring that all-day parkers, they come to Chester or one of our other historic towns who tend to have to go to the city centre to work, are or cities, there will be something going on regardless of encouraged out of their cars and into the park-and-ride the day, week or time of year. We need to start marketing scheme. It is more cost-effective to use the park-and-ride our towns and cities as a package—a mix of history, scheme for the day than use the car parks and fill up culture, entertainment and shopping. That total mix is space needed for shoppers and visitors. Of course, such important. schemes also reduce rush-hour congestion. Out-of-town shopping centres may have shops and We cannot forget the importance of the railways. the cinema, but do they have the culture and the history? Many historic towns and cities were key link points A day trip to a theme park may be fun, but does it during the expansion of the railways in the 19th century. educate someone or allow them to shop in high-quality Typically, historic towns have very good rail links, which high street shops? It is only by maximising, and making provide some strange ties—for instance, Chester has the best use of, all our assets that we can work towards good rail connections with London, but the direct train delivering our goal, which is to have a vibrant and busy to London stops at Milton Keynes. Chester has advertised local economy and for our historic towns and cities to in Milton Keynes, and we have had a huge number of thrive, compete and prosper in the 21st century. people coming from Milton Keynes to Chester, because Like the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member it is just as easy to get to Chester as it is to get to for Lancaster and Fleetwood, transport and local transport London for the day. We are encouraging people from infrastructure is one of the biggest problems we face. Milton Keynes to come. I did not think that Milton Historic towns tend to have been built before the invention Keynes was in a suitable catchment area for Chester, of the motor car, and the Romans did not think of the but it is, due to those rail links. Virgin Trains said that needs of the car when they were building the city and the Chester-London line has been its best performing laying out Chester’s street network. We also have the line over the past year, so more people have been problem of being unable to adapt our local transport encouraged into the city, encouraging more improvements infrastructure due to our historic heritage. No one in our local economy. would seriously suggest blasting a hole in our city walls We are lucky that our historic towns and cities provide these days to build a new road or tramway, and, similarly, a desirable environment; people want to live in and visit no one would consider knocking down a row of listed them. Companies want to be based in them and bring buildings to widen a narrow road. their customers to them. Consequently, we are seeing Historic towns tend to be restricted by their geography. huge demand, even in these straitened times, for high- Chester, like many historic towns and cities, is built on quality, modern business locations. However, there is a the lowest fording point of the River Dee, and consequently problem in historic towns in that it can be difficult to faces huge problems getting people from one side of the find room to accommodate that new business growth. city to the other, when the river is running through the We cannot easily clear large sections of an historic city 217WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 218WH centre for redevelopment without destroying our historic excellent leadership of Councillor John Griffiths and heritage. The city centre of Chester, like Colchester, is his deputy, Councillor Sara Mildmay-White, for being surrounded by walls, so there is a natural limit on an example of localism at its best. Such an important growth in the city centre. Consequently, there are huge development would not have occurred without their pressures to develop outside the town in the neighbouring vision and practical ability to drive it through. green belt. Historic towns must be allowed to develop Importantly to me and many of my constituents, the organically, and, sometimes, some green belt development development, although modern, is architecturally in may be necessary, but that should be only when there is tune and in sympathy with the great historic core of my no alternative. In the meantime, we must maximise town. It was designed by Sir Michael Hopkins, whom redevelopment opportunities and take maximum advantage architecture buffs will know as the architect behind of opportunities as they arise. Portcullis House and the auditorium at Glyndebourne. The current economic situation and the proposed Anyone who looks at the design—thousands upon downsizing of all levels of Government have a silver thousands of people from across East Anglia shop lining, in that they provide a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity there, particularly at weekends—can appreciate what a for historic towns and cities to release land in town fine piece of work it is. centres for new development opportunities. The abolition The Arc has 370,000 square feet of retail, a 40,000 square of Cheshire county council last year led to the sale of foot public building—I will speak more about that in a the old county hall in Chester to Chester university for minute—and 62 residential units. My hon. Friend the the development of a new riverside campus. The gradual Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) drew downsizing of Lloyds Banking Group, following its attention to the importance of car parking. That was a creation through the merger of HBOS and Lloyds TSB controversial issue during the development, but the Arc last year, has led to a huge tract of land becoming has 850 car parking spaces, including a particularly fine available between Chester station and the canal in and distinguished underground parking facility. Boughton, which, I hope, will be redeveloped as a new business district in the heart of the city. Recent school The total cost of the scheme was approximately closures have provided land for new retail development, £136 million. The developers, Centros, assembled much new care facilities and new affordable housing for local of the finance, but St Edmundsbury borough council residents. Therefore, there is a sliver lining to the reductions ensured that money was stumped up for the public in Government expenditure and the release of properties venue, which cost about £16.5 million, including a modest in our historic cities for economic purposes. contribution of about £1.5 million from the East of England Development Agency, which will soon be late Our historic towns and cities have, by nature, tended and lamented, as it did its bit for my town while it to be successful and prosperous towns. By selling our existed. historic towns as a package, improving their transport infrastructure and allowing organic growth, we can The economic rationale for the development was help them to become even more successful in future. clear. Several years ago, the town leaders—I played a modest part—understood that a new and more acquisitive society had been created by the boom years. Sadly, the 11.49 am boom years turned to a bust, but they will return under Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): This has the leadership of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. been a good-natured debate, but I am afraid that I am People want better retail and more of it. We realised going to introduce an element of controversy: I yield to that unless we moved with the times, Bury St Edmunds no one in my belief that Bury St Edmunds, which I have might keep its history, but it would not keep its retail the honour to represent, is the best historic town in sector running at the level necessary for the market these isles. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member town to remain vibrant. for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) on We commissioned a study that showed that people in securing this important debate. the Bury St Edmunds catchment area were spending My constituency is truly historic. Its famous abbey about £700 million on what is called in the jargon ruins were central to the initiation of Magna Carta, and “comparison goods”. The analysis stated that without St Edmund, the patron saint of England, is buried the new development, the amount spent in the town there. It has a terrific cathedral whose tower was recently would be only £263 million. In short, we were competing finished using millennium money. That is the true ship with the much bigger retail centres of Cambridge, Ipswich, of the fens; forget about Ely cathedral. The town centre Norwich and Colchester. We are now back in the game. has magnificent Georgian streets and a marvellously Some of the early benefits and signs of the Arc’s importance restored Georgian theatre, the Theatre Royal. An important can be seen in the figures produced by Experian, the and traditional brewing business, Greene King, now financial analysts, for Bury St Edmunds since the opening one of the biggest brewers in western Europe, is located of the development at the start of 2009. right in the centre of town, providing jobs and a focal Bury St Edmunds has moved from 161st in the country’s point for community activity. retail rankings to 145th. Some 300 new long-term jobs As many speakers in this debate have said, however, have been created on the site, and an unquantifiable but historic towns cannot stand still. If they are imaginative significant number of additional jobs have been created and have intelligent leadership, they must combine the as a result of the development. Nine companies based best of the past and the future. For that reason, I wish in and around the town were involved in the building, to draw attention to the biggest retail development that which also boasts a timber-frame aspect and waste Bury St Edmunds has ever seen: the Arc development, disposal facilities, all drawing on local business. built on the old cattle market in the town centre. I pay The main indicator of footfall in Bury St Edmunds is tribute to St Edmundsbury borough council, under the car parking. The number of cars parked in the town has 219WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 220WH

[Mr David Ruffley] fellow Lancastrian MP—on his presentation and on securing the debate. In that welcome, I embrace all hon. risen by 8%, while centres in other parts of East Anglia Members who have contributed. If I were a tourist buff have experienced a typical decrease of about 10% in the visiting from the United States or Japan, I would be past two years. It is estimated that the development absolutely gobsmacked at the cornucopia of opportunities generates £500,000 a year in business rates. Not all the that all hon. Members have talked about—many units have been let, so we expect that number to grow. congratulations to all who have spoken. The commercial property vacancy rate since the I want to highlight what the hon. Gentleman said. In development opened has been about 8.5% , while the his typically robust and common-sense way, he laid out average throughout England and Wales at the start of some of the key issues and challenges not just for 2010 was 12.4%. Lancaster, but for many of the towns and cities that Meanwhile—other hon. Members may have noted have been mentioned. Of course, Lancaster is a very this phenomenon with regard to new developments in fine city. Its distinctiveness reflects that of the county their constituency—outside businesses have come in to palatine, which was created in the 14th century and is get a bit of the action. Where such businesses see more directly linked to the royal family. That is why at dinners footfall, they see an opportunity to grow. Existing and in the historical county, which includes Blackpool, we long-established shops in Bury St Edmunds, such as still end our toasts to the Queen with the words, “The Palmers, were initially concerned that they might be Queen, the Duke of Lancaster.” In the inclusion of crowded out or that the new development might take those words, we tend to gloss over the fact that the away their custom. In fact, I am told, Palmers reports building up of his power by Richard II did not exactly increased turnover since the Arc opened. have the results that Richard II anticipated. One significant entry into the town has been a high- In talking about the issues surrounding the shortage quality, brand-new, badly needed Asda superstore west of retail shopping, the hon. Gentleman rightly illuminated of Bury St Edmunds town centre, where it now serves a challenges and tensions, particularly in relation to Lancaster huge part of the population that felt disenfranchised in castle, between current usage and possible future heritage retail terms. That is one development for which the usage. We must also consider the specific issue of transport borough council cannot claim credit; it is all down to access—narrow city streets—to which I will return. All the doughty campaigners of the Howard estate, their those topics are very important, and he presented his unofficial leader Mr Ernie Broom and the redoubtable case very well indeed. men and women, mainly pensioners, of the over-60s There was a common theme to all today’s presentations. club on that fine estate. If I may be party political for a My colleague and hon. Friend the Member for York moment, they are an example of the big society in Central (Hugh Bayley) talked about how strongly heritage action. They assembled public meetings and persuaded has driven economic success and growth. The hon. Asda that a shop was needed there. We got the shop, Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) discussed the very and it has been a huge success. That ties in with the interesting issue—although it is not necessarily one for redevelopment of Western Way, where the borough this debate—of the extent to which local authorities council has moved its offices to a modern site. should be held responsible for historic assets. In respect I hope my few brief remarks have reflected what of cathedrals, the Church of England has, of course, other colleagues have also said this morning: that history argued the toss with English Heritage on that for a can, indeed, be combined with the best of the future. If number of years with some success. towns have good leadership and individuals who want I entirely agree with what the hon. Member for City to participate to build a stronger community—a stronger of Chester (Stephen Mosley) said about sub-regional business community—that will welcome tourists and roles and the total mix. We cannot keep heritage in shoppers from outside the area, there is a way forward. aspic or have retail that ignores the historic context in It is not always big Government who can make big which it is delivered. That total mix is extremely important. developments happen. Like so many other historic towns, The hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley) Bury St Edmunds does not need a handout; all it needs gave a bravura performance in demonstrating that we is a hand up from good leadership at the head of its can actually have a connection between the past and the communities. As I reflect on what has been achieved in future. He also made an important point about the role the past two years, I am proud to have been the Member that local people, groups and associations play in that of Parliament for somewhere that is very fine and is, rich mix of regeneration. It is not just a question of dare I say it, the best historic constituency. top-down government. As I say, in that respect, it has been a good and enlightened debate.

[MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] The Government can play a key role, which does not have to be over-bearing, in the economic development Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I think I am right of our historic towns and cities. The previous Government in saying that we may be about to have a debut performance had a decent track record on the matter, and many of from the Member speaking for Her Majesty’s loyal our historic towns and cities, whether it is Liverpool in Opposition—Mr Gordon Marsden. the north-west or Hastings in the south-east, have experienced a renaissance in recent years. Much of that was helped by targeted support from the previous 12.1 pm Government, which meant that existing buildings were Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): It is a preserved and adapted to become cutting-edge new great delight to serve under your chairmanship, venues. That has often been linked to the economic Mr Hollobone. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member renewal of many historic cities and initiatives—none for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw)—a more so than the recent initiatives in Liverpool, when it 221WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 222WH was the city of culture. I want to mention briefly the area of Liverpool. The scheme has also provided money Bluecoat theatre in Liverpool, which was first built in for projects in my constituency of Blackpool, including 1708 as a charity school. It was reopened in March 2008 the revitalisation of St John’s square. after a £14 million redevelopment in which Arts Council English Heritage has been mentioned in the debate England, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the regional by hon. Members—although not always with approval development agency, the European regional development for what it has done. Nevertheless, it has done some fund, trusts, foundations and private donors all played very good things, particularly in the north-west. The a part. hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood might wish I would like to add a couple of points about that to discuss that at another time and place. In particular, project that are relevant to this morning’s discussion. in Blackpool it helped to alert us all to the importance The project involved adapting a traditional building to of a major regeneration of the winter gardens and the 21st-century local economy needs to showcase visual tower, which was a catalyst for the £40 million package art, music, live art and literature. Incidentally, the project of support that was put together earlier this year and built on a tradition that has ranged from showing the which has enabled Blackpool council to take control post-modernists in 1911 to Yoko Ono in 1967—she and offer direction, along with Merlin Entertainments, came back in 2008 for a reunion. The project was in those areas. I pay tribute to all those involved, completed with a mixture of private funding and public because it provides a strong business case for us in funding from the Government and other bodies. Blackpool. I could cite many other examples, such as Looking around the Chamber, it is interesting to note the restoration of the traditional covered market in that the contributions have not come from Members Stockport, the town I grew up in, which has brought an representing major cities; they have come from what I important part of the town centre back to life. describe—I do not do so in a disparaging way because The balance to be struck between conservation and I include my own town of Blackpool—as second-level development and regeneration is a subtle one, and it towns and cities. Those towns and cities are just as key requires the input of statutory bodies, regional and to economic development and renewal as big cities and European funding, heritage bodies such as the National rural areas. Many second-level towns and cities are also Trust and English Heritage and, often, the initiatives of seaside and coastal towns. locally-based heritage and environmental development The Sea Change programme was and continues to be groups. How, then, can heritage create the sort of economic delivered through the Department for Culture, Media activity to which my hon. Friend the Member for York and Sport. I had a modest role in encouraging the Central referred? English Heritage’s report, “Heritage programme when it was set up under the previous Counts 2010”, which was published last week, demonstrates Government. It has helped to boost the economic in part how that works. New research, commissioned by development of a number of historic coastal towns and English Heritage and the National Trust, has looked at cities. A series of grants in excess of £38 million have the economic impact of investments totalling £23 million helped to fund regeneration projects in some 32 resorts. at five heritage tourist attractions across the country. In passing, I would like to mention the town of Blackpool Interestingly, half of all jobs generated by such attractions in my constituency. Under that funding, Blackpool were in the wider community, in local bars, restaurants, tower will benefit from a tower headland—a major new hotels and shops. In fact, it was found that every pound space stretching out into the Irish sea. It will be themed invested generated an additional £1.70 for the local according to the rich history of variety in Blackpool, economy. with a so-called comedy carpet and all sorts of pyrotechnic Regional development agencies were mentioned in wonders. the debate, not always supportively, but as my hon. It is not just seaside towns that have benefited from Friend said, they provided significant funds for the the programme. Coastal towns have also benefited. For development of our historic towns and cities in recent example, Dover received £4 million, which allowed the years. The East of England Development Agency invested restoration and enhancement of the great tower, which more than £86 million in areas such as Great Yarmouth, has resulted in a surge in visitor numbers. The remainder Lowestoft and Southend, and I have already referred to of the money is helping with Dover’s ambitious regeneration the key role of the RDA in regeneration in Blackpool. plans, including a sea-front development and a cable Incidentally, Blackpool is also on the list for a world car project linking the town centre to the castle. heritage bid, and English Heritage has been playing a It is not just seaside towns that have an historic key role in that. aspect to them; historic cities that attract large numbers The Opposition are concerned about the impact that of tourists are also important. Norwich is good example, the abolition of the RDAs might have on the future as a private charitable trust has been set up to help economic development of historic towns and cities, develop 12 iconic buildings into an integrated group of given the strong role that they have played in the past heritage attractions. The overarching framework means 10 years. The regional growth fund, which will total that Norwich’s unique assessment of its heritage buildings only £1 billion over two years, is not a substitute for the can function as a catalyst for wider economic regeneration budgets that RDAs had for leading regeneration projects across the area. in many of our historic towns and cities. As Members The work of non-governmental organisations, such will know, some of the funding we are talking about as the Heritage Lottery Fund, must be recognised as was dependent on match funding from the European helping to develop many of our historic towns and regional development fund. That has been put on ice cities. For example, the Townscape Heritage initiative until the status and role of the new local enterprise provided £7.5 million of funding, which was matched partnerships are decided. There are real concerns that if by the same amount from the European regional that is not done quickly the money will go out the development fund, to help redevelop the Ropewalks window. I know that that is not the Minister’s direct 223WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 224WH

[Mr Gordon Marsden] Government policies on cities, towns, growth, planning, historic buildings, transport, Anglo-Saxon, Norman responsibility, but I ask him to urge his colleagues in the and Roman history, tourism, Victorian architecture, Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and prisons and nursery rhymes. Ever mindful of the fate of for Communities and Local Government to come to the three blind mice, Humpty Dumpty and the cat in some conclusion on that matter as quickly as possible. the well, here is my best shot. Governments must recognise that there should be no My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and doctrinaire approach on public and private initiatives in Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) has done the House a that area, and that cuts both ways. I cite the famous service in securing the debate. He made a powerful case words of Deng Xiaoping, who is not necessarily the for the balance, as the hon. Member for York Central greatest advocate for regenerating democracy, but who (Hugh Bayley) put it, between the historic character of did lay the foundations of China’s economic success in his constituency and the need for change, a point to the 1980s. He is supposed to have said, “It does not which I will return later. He is right that economic matter whether the cat is black or white, so long as it development is of central importance in ensuring the catches mice.” My assertion is that the cat has caught a future well-being of our historic towns and cities across significant number of mice over recent years, largely the country, including those in his fine constituency. because public, private and local groups have worked The coalition Government inherited a record public together. sector deficit—you would expect me to say that the day Transport is of key importance in balancing conservation before the comprehensive spending review, Mr Hollobone, and development. I ask the Minister gently, where is the but it is relevant to the debate because, as well as being strategy for including transport planning in any successor about history, the debate is about economic growth, bodies to the RDAs, particularly local enterprise regeneration and the opportunities that come from partnerships? We have seen the development of light investment in the towns and cities that have been so well rail and tram systems in many of our historic towns and represented by those who have spoken in the debate. cities; Manchester is a particularly good example of The hon. Member for York Central, an old friend where that has enabled the local council to free up, and sparring partner, spoke with typical eloquence and develop and sustain tight historic areas, such as those passion about York. I know what a dedicated servant of around the canal and the village, and to link up with that great city he is, and he will know that I holidayed towns and areas outside. there recently and so can give testament to all that he The Government are abolishing the Government office says about the balance between a modern, thriving network, which will inevitably remove a key repository York, and its rich architectural and other history. He of knowledge and, to some extent, a co-ordinating was right to say that heritage generates employment. body. Will big infrastructure projects, which could be The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), whom I catalysts for economic growth in historic towns and shall ever after think of as twinkling like a diamond in cities, get the same level of support and co-ordination the Essex sky, made a strong case for both the history from civil servants based in Whitehall? That is an important and modern profile of his town, which I also know well. matter in areas where the travel-to-work area is larger Like York, it is a diverse place with a rich history, but than the area of the local authority that controls a one with modern challenges, and he articulated them historic town or city. today, as he always does, with commitment. In conclusion, although it was inevitable that public Chester is another city that I know well. My hon. sector-led projects for boosting the economic development Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) of our historic places would be squeezed in difficult spoke about holistically integrating the needs of local times, some of the proposed changes and the way in businesses, infrastructure requirements for transport which the Government are pushing ahead with them and issues around planning. He spoke about the threat could make it harder for major projects to get off the of out-of-town development, and I shall try to cover ground. Many of the projects that I and other Members that in the brief time that I have to contribute to the have mentioned today have been multi-agency and have debate. needed considerable co-ordination between national and In essence, my hon. Friend showed a humility in local statutory organisations and third sector and local recognising that Chester can do more, be better and groups. I urge the Government merely to recognise that learn from other examples. Sometimes in drawing together as they develop their policies, because the successes in the outcomes of these debates—what we can glean from historic renewal and economic regeneration that we them is as much about sharing good practice drawn have heard about today must not be stymied by that from our constituency experience as anything that the process. Minister or shadow Minister can say, and my hon. Friend did a service to the House in that regard. 12.16 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who I am delighted to see—I have welcomed The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong him twice, now in Westminster Hall and previously on Learning (Mr John Hayes): The pleasure in serving the Floor of the House—also made a point about under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, is matched holistic development. I was interested particularly in by the pleasure of facing the hon. Member for Blackpool what he said about Sir Michael Hopkins’s mixed South (Mr Marsden) for the first time in his new development, which combines residential provision, retail Opposition role. We are old friends, and I am delighted business and transport. The assumption that those things that he has been able to contribute to the debate. I am should be separated has done immense damage to many conscious that I am here with an enormous task; I of our towns and cities, for the idea that one can gather from the debate so far that I must draw together compartmentalise those requirements is unhelpful. His 225WH Historic Towns and Cities19 OCTOBER 2010 Historic Towns and Cities 226WH example was of the opposite, of how those things can or international significance, there has to be financial be drawn together in a development which delivers support from the centre? It cannot be left to the local aesthetically as well as in terms of its utility. Again, I authority to pick up the bill. shall say more about that. The hon. Member for Blackpool South spoke of the Mr Hayes: Yes, that is a fair point. Where there are, need for co-ordination. He is right to say that the for example, buildings of national significance, it is Government should play a role, but sometimes right that we take a bigger view about the contribution the Government need to step back as well as forward. that they make to their locality, but also to what we are This is about getting the Government off people’s backs as a people. In those cases, there must be an overarching and on their side. It is about understanding that what view. Indeed, the hon. Member for York Central made the Government do matters, but that what we do not do it clear that the Government’s approach to English matters, too; about the balance between local action Heritage reflects exactly that view. and Government intervention, and understanding the Let me briefly describe how I think the marriage of advantages of the discretion which should and could be local decision making and national priorities can be exercised by local people and the diversity that springs made. The approach that we seek is one that distinguishes from that; and about the need to ensure that where between strategic national needs and local economic co-ordination is required, where some overarching view priorities. A distinction must be made between what is is needed to pull together transport investment or direct best determined at national level—for example, innovation economic activity, the Government should play a part. and sector leadership—and specifically local issues such All this is at the heart of this debate. Let me try in the as transport, planning and housing, notwithstanding time I have available to outline how we think that can the point that I made in response to the hon. Member work. for Blackpool South. We will publish a White Paper on I mentioned that the CSR will come to its exciting sub-national economic growth outlining the way forward culmination tomorrow. Essential to developing our town in those terms. and cities and to promoting economic growth is economic Our approach is that we can promote growth by well-being. The Chancellor will set out in the spending freeing enterprise and innovation, and that it is vital to review detailed policy proposals to promote economic do so. Business confidence depends on sound finances development and spread economic opportunity. and a Government who are there when they are needed, The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and and who offer support that does not get in the way. Our Skills has made it clear that we believe that functions growth White Paper will set out a new relationship such as inward investment, sector leadership, innovation, between business and the state. responsibility for business support and access to finance Our approach will empower local civic and business are best led nationally, but that much is best decided leaders to determine how to enable their community to locally; for example, planning and housing policies, create wealth and jobs. If we want to build a bigger, creating the right local environment for business to better society, we must bring forward and make real grow, and tackling issues such as employment and new forms of community engagement. In the strategy enterprise. that we are putting together, the tension—I believe that was how it was described by one speaker—between the Mr Marsden: I am grateful to the Minister for giving local and the national must be embraced, as must the way—I know that he does not have a great deal of time. marriage between the strategy and the tactical. We must He and others spoke about transport. Is he able to find a happy solution to that and I am not sure that that confirm that it remains the view of Ministers in his has always happened in the past. I do not want to be Department that, in some cases, transport needs excessively party political—this debate is not about infrastructure planning over and above sub-regional that—but I am not sure that previous Governments got planning? that marriage right. That was well illustrated by some of the points that were made about what was described as the tension Mr Hayes: It is true that the Government need to set between the old and the new. I do not think that it is national priorities for transport infrastructure, but if necessary to have tension between the old and the new. those priorities are set outside the assumptions and It is only through a symbiotic relationship between the wishes of local communities at sub-regional or local two that we can accommodate the familiar touchstones level, they will be frustrated. They will be unpopular at of enduring certainty which make all that is disturbing best, and undeliverable at worst, so getting a better and surprising in life tolerable, and the constant need balance between local wishes, sensitivities and understanding for change. The hon. Member for Blackpool South of economic need, and Government priorities, is at the (Mr Marsden) quoted Deng Xiaoping, but I prefer to heart of what we hope to do. quote Disraeli, who said: “Change is inevitable. Change is constant.” Bob Russell: Will the Minister give way? However, change is dependent on seeding an acceptance of it in people’s hearts, and, to some degree at least, that Mr Hayes: I will do so briefly, but I want to have time is about local decision making, and local people taking to make more points of substance. ownership of change. Governments have been insensitive to that symbiosis. Bob Russell: Of course localism is crucial, but does It is true that York, Chester, Colchester and Bury the Minister agree that if a local council has responsibility St Edmunds are fine places, but much damage has been for buildings or structures that are, in effect, of national done at street level—at human level—in many towns. 227WH Historic Towns and Cities 19 OCTOBER 2010 228WH

[Mr Hayes] Child Trust Fund (Looked-after Children) As well as the scars of much of the building that has emerged since the war, there is also the pain of what has 12.30 pm gone. I am sure that that has happened because of an Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- insensitivity to beauty; the triumph of soulless utility op): I refer hon. Members to the Register of Members’ over all that elevates and provides our sense of pride Financial Interests, which notes that I donate 50% of and purpose. my Scottish Parliament salary to the charity, Who The issues that were listed at the beginning of this Cares? Scotland, to which I shall refer. debate are too numerous for me to cover in detail, but if The abolition of child trust funds was announced I had the time, I would be delighted to do so, Mr Hollobone, earlier this year and will have far-reaching effects. We as you know. In drawing them together, we must take a are all aware that it was set up in 2002 by the Labour view about what we see—the buildings, townscapes and Government, and that additional payments for looked-after landscapes; what we feel—the values and ideas that children were introduced in 2008. That was welcomed permeate the towns and cities that we have heard about at the time by a significant number of children’s groups today and the whole of the nation; and what we do—what as a positive step in what had hitherto been a fairly workplaces look like, and how our communities are neglected area of social policy. shaped. What we see, feel and do add up to what we are Like others, I have concerns about the wider proposal as individuals, as communities, as a people and as a to end child trust funds, but I want to focus today on its nation. impact on looked-after children. The matter seems to I am grateful for the opportunity in this all too brief have stayed below the radar because, sadly, the needs of time to congratulate again my hon. Friend the Member young people in care are often not high on the political for Lancaster and Fleetwood, and to thank all those agenda, despite the best efforts of organisations such as who contributed and also you, Mr Hollobone, for it is the Who Cares Trust and Who Cares? Scotland, which always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. represent the views and needs of young people who are looked after and accommodated. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I thank all Under the scheme, the UK Government provide £100 a those who attended the debate, and ask them to leave year to put into a child trust fund for every child who is quickly and quietly. We must go on to the next debate. looked after away from home, including those who are in foster care, residential care and kinship care. Some of those young people have spent all or the majority of their life in care, and the money is paid when they have spent part of a year in the care system. The amount of money is not a lot per child, but it helps young people to build up a personal fund that will become available when they move on from care to post-school education or employment training. Its purpose is to help young people move on to independent living. It also offers useful educational opportunities for learning how to manage money, and the discipline of developing a saving habit. That is important. Research on young people in the care system shows that access even to a modest level of savings at the age of 18 makes a real difference to the decisions that young people can make about their future, as well as encouraging investment. Many of the things that we take for granted and that have been put in place for us and that we put in place for our children are simply not there for young people who are brought up in the care system. We must also remember that young people in care often move on to an independent lifestyle much earlier than other young people. They are often expected to take on the tenancy of their own home, and to manage a household budget when they are entering further or higher education, or the world of work. That is a time when, as those of us who are parents or have had teenagers know, young people are vulnerable. Young people in the care system are expected to make adult decisions and to move quickly into the adult world. As corporate parents, the Government at any level have responsibility for children in care. The purpose of the child trust fund scheme, especially for looked-after children, was to help to improve outcomes for those children, and we should find a way of continuing it. Sadly, it is being abandoned just as we have begun to unearth more efficient ways of operating it. 229WH Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 19 OCTOBER 2010 Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 230WH Children) Children) The concept of asset building for young people in the adopting a savings policy that builds assets for all care system is not well developed. Having access to children’s futures. The key recommendations included a individual asset accounts can make an important new type of asset building for children—an ABC contribution to the well-being of children in care by account—based on retaining the infrastructure of the providing a sense of security and encouraging planning child trust fund that the new Government scrapped; a for the future. It can help the local authorities that are reward scheme to encourage saving with money off, for looking after children to work with them to strengthen example, leisure facilities; new private sector incentives their saving habit, and to ensure that they have something offered by banks and savings providers; and a financial for their future needs. It would also send positive messages capability programme with the voluntary sector to improve to parents of looked-after children about the need to financial literacy. All those suggestions would benefit become involved in the process of saving for their young people who are looked after and accommodated. children’s future, and encourage them, when possible, to The Save Child Savings Alliance—that is a bit of a take on some responsibility for supporting their children. mouthful—consists of academics, charities, think tanks I realise that the Minister is not responsible for the and members of the financial industry. It welcomed the actions of the Scottish Government, but I want to place report, and the recommendation on record my belief that the Scottish Government and “to maintain, extend and improve the infrastructure of the Child Scottish local authorities should also give more Trust Fund” consideration to future financial planning for looked-after as part of any asset-building agenda to boost savings. children. That would be entirely consistent with the It argued that the child trust fund was one of the most recommendations of the 2009 national residential child successful saving schemes ever, and that the framework care review for developing corporate parent responsibilities. could be retained for a small administrative cost. The Again, those recommendations attracted widespread alliance acknowledged that even if the Government support. were unable to make contributions to the scheme in the The Minister should take an interest in the funding current economic climate, keeping the structure in place that was provided to the Scottish Government specifically would at least ensure that all newborn children have a to benefit looked-after children but did not go to those chance of having a savings account opened for them at children. Back in July, in response to a series of questions birth that would improve the life chances of future in the Scottish Parliament, it was revealed that the generations. Scottish Government had no idea whether looked-after Julian Le Grand, founder member of the Save Child children had received the payments. That was incredibly Savings Alliance and professor of social policy at the disappointing and worrying. Under pressure following London School of Economics said: those revelations, most Scottish local authorities have “When it comes to social mobility, a lump sum asset is a lot now ensured that the payments have been made, but it more powerful than income in unlocking opportunities for youngsters was worrying that the Scottish Government had not as they enter adulthood. This is particularly vital for less well-off been monitoring the payments, so not only did they not families to help give their children the best start to their adult know what was happening to the money but they were lives. We must not allow what has been a successful start in unlikely to be able to assess any outcomes of what that fostering a savings culture for all to fall away from the most money had gone towards. Will the Minister tell us what vulnerable in society.” evidence the Treasury has of the outcomes of that Those comments were echoed by Dr Katherine Rake, initiative throughout the UK, and how it was taken into the chief executive of the Family account before the decision to scrap child trust fund and Parenting Institute, who said: payments? “The last two years of economic strife have reminded British The Conservatives’ commitment before the election society of the importance of personal savings. It’s imperative that was to end Government payments to child trust funds, we help ordinary families put money away for a child’s future. The except for children in the poorest third of families and Child Trust Fund offers a proven structure for this.” children with disabilities. Many young people who are Of course, many looked-after children do not have that looked after and accommodated will fall into those family support. categories because of the difficulties in their background. David White, chief executive of the Children’s Mutual, When the Bill that introduced child trust funds was said: going through Parliament, the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), who is now Chancellor of the “The Child Trust Fund ensured that every single newborn Exchequer, said that child in the UK had a savings account opened for them which they, and only they, could access at the age of 18. With ever “we greatly support the principle that the Bill is designed to increasing day-to-day demands on family savings and reports that promote…We think that having savings…gives people a stake in university students face debts of £25,000 on graduation, it is society, gives them independence, encourages self-reliance and critical that we explore ways to protect savings for our children. bolsters the freedom of the individual against the overbearing Whatever their background, the next generation should not be state.”—[Official Report, 15 December 2003; Vol. 415, c. 1345.] forced to start adulthood saddled with debt or as a dependent Apart from the remark about the overbearing state, that drain on their parents.” was one of the few occasions on which I agreed with the Again, many looked-after children do not have that now Chancellor. parental background to provide support. The arguments As recently as September, Phillip Blond—the same are particularly valid and resonant for those in local Phillip Blond who has emerged as one of the Prime authority care. Minister’s policy gurus—in his role as director of ResPublica According to figures from HM Treasury, on 5 April launched a report entitled “Asset Building for Children— 2009, the total number of children in local authority Creating a new civic savings platform for young people”. care for whom a child trust fund had been opened was It called on the Government to tackle social mobility by 33,158. Figures from the Department for Education 231WH Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 19 OCTOBER 2010 Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 232WH Children) Children) [Cathy Jamieson] Government inherited. That is not a position that we wanted to be in, but it is a grave situation. reveal that the cost of the £100 top-up for looked-after At the moment, we currently borrow £1 of every children paid to local authorities in England and in the £4 that we spend. The hon. Lady mentioned financial devolved Assemblies was £1,039,833 in 2008-09, and literacy, and that is a broader issue that we as the UK £1,502,786 in 2009-10. That is a relatively small amount Government are trying to tackle for our country as a of money per young person, but it has the potential to whole. Because of the problems that we face with the make a big difference. If asset building and financial deficit, our level of debt and the interest that we have to education for the next generation are to be tackled, in pay, the amount left for public service support is being light of current personal debt levels, I believe that that squeezed. It is simply not affordable to spend over would be money well spent. £0.5 billion a year on the child trust fund. The children I appreciate that policy decisions can often have concerned cannot use that money for 18 years, and we unintended consequences, and it is the mark of a cannot afford to spend it when we have limited resources compassionate and caring Government that they can that are under pressure to provide support and services admit when things are wrong and take steps to correct for people now, including looked-after children. As I errors. My preference would be for the Government to said, I will come on to the more specific issues, but it is revisit the whole policy on child trust funds and keep important to drill down into the wider context for those the scheme intact. I realise, however, that that plea may who may read the debate later. fall on stony ground. As the hon. Lady knows, we have already reduced For a relatively small amount of Government investment, Government payments into child trust funds, and we the child trust fund system could be maintained for our have introduced a Bill to end eligibility to child trust most vulnerable children, who are surely those who are funds for children born from next January onwards. In looked after and accommodated. Young people in care other words, most women who were pregnant when we often feel isolated with little control over their lives. made our initial announcement will have access to the They feel that few people speak out on their behalf and child trust fund; the Bill will affect children born from that no one listens to them. I am speaking out on their next January onwards. behalf today, and I hope that the Government will not I confirm that the top-up payments to the child trust only listen, but act to ensure that the term “looked funds of looked-after children will stop. Those changes after” actually means something for those young people. will save £320 million this year, and over £500 million a year in the future. That is £0.5 billion that we do not 12.44 pm have to find through spending cuts—perhaps in important areas such as education or children’s social services— The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening): increasing taxes further, or borrowing, which would It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the mean that our deficit was higher and that even more first time, Mr Hollobone, and it is nice to see you in taxpayers’ money was going to fund debt interest instead your place today. I start by congratulating the hon. of public services. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) We are talking about a legacy. The hon. Lady rightly on securing this debate. As she points out, it is an made the point about looking ahead, but we are concerned important topic. She is right to say that perhaps more about the legacy that all children will inherit if we do than many other communities in our country, looked-after not tackle the debt that we face now and the deficit; the children need people who will stand up and speak on country’s level of debt would be eye watering, even their behalf about some of the challenges that they and compared with today. During this Parliament, spending their families face. on our debt interest could rise from £43 billion—a huge The context for today’s debate is unfortunate—it is figure compared with what we spend on transport, the day before tomorrow’s spending review. I suppose prisons or justice, for example—to £60 billion. That is a that that is either good or bad, depending on how one rise of £17 billion over the next few years and shows looks at it. I will respond to the hon. Lady in detail, and what a challenge we face. We must try to work together I will also try to address the important questions that to balance our priorities. If we do not address the debt, she has raised. In the time available, I will set out the it will only increase further and put even more pressure overall context of the changes and explain why they are on the vital public services that we want to support. taking place. I will go on to talk in more detail about the specific issues that she raised regarding looked-after Cathy Jamieson: I appreciate that the Minister is children. The devolved Assemblies are an added aspect. trying to be helpful and I look forward to what she has As the hon. Lady said, responsibility for the delivery of to say, particularly on support for looked-after children, services and support for looked-after children lies with but could she answer the question that I raised? What the Scottish Government. assessment was made of the effectiveness of the outcomes I agree that looked-after children face greater challenges of the child trust fund for looked-after children before it than other children, and that they need and deserve was decided to scrap this particular scheme for looked-after greater support. In England, we are looking at ways to children? improve that support, alongside other measures taken in the spending review. I understand the hon. Lady’s Justine Greening: The hon. Lady will be aware that a disappointment at the changes that we have to make to key aspect of the emergency Budget was to examine the the child trust fund. Unfortunately, those changes are distributional analysis of how people would be affected, necessary. This week in particular, with the spending but also to consider key issues in relation to children, review happening tomorrow, hon. Members will be such as child poverty. We were very careful to consider aware of the unprecedented budget deficit that the those issues. Indeed, given the problem that we were 233WH Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 19 OCTOBER 2010 Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 234WH Children) Children) having to start to solve, the fact that we were able to into public services in a sustainable way. That was not introduce an emergency Budget that still managed to the situation that we found ourselves in when we came see child poverty not rising is a measure not only, we into office. hope, of its effectiveness, but of our desire as a Government to see that whole issue as important. We are trying to balance protecting things today with, as the hon. Lady Cathy Jamieson: I absolutely understand the issue points out, the need to look more long term. about value for money and ensuring efficiency. It certainly does not seem to make sense that it costs £122 to make a I can reassure the hon. Lady that my hon. Friend the payment of £100. However, does the Minister agree that Financial Secretary to the Treasury is examining ways looked-after children do not have a parent putting in which we can encourage saving and children’s saving. money aside for the future or putting money literally in We recognise that that is an issue and my hon. Friend is trust for the future, as we would all do for our kids, so considering it. He is very interested on a personal level, that when they get to the age of 18, they have some and has been for many years, in how we can improve money, however small the amount, and that someone financial literacy—the other key issue that the hon. has to take responsibility for that? In those circumstances, Lady raised—and ensure that people take good decisions. is there anything that she can say today about ensuring that young people, when they leave care at the age of 18 The hon. Lady said that the Scottish Government to go into further or higher education or into the world had not always ensured that money got to where it was of work, will have some money behind them to allow meant to go. She is right to raise that as a concern. In them to move on into adult life? England and in Scotland, local authorities have a statutory obligation to report to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs all children who come into their care who are Justine Greening: I talked briefly about the fact that of child trust fund age, precisely so that HMRC can we recognise that financial literacy and encouraging ensure that all children who were due to get a child trust saving for children are important. She knows that we fund got an account and received the payments to have a broader problem with saving in Britain. The which they were entitled at birth and at age seven. In savings ratio had really fallen. It was not just the fact, they are meant to report monthly to HMRC so Government who had unsustainable finances; many that that can be followed up. There are very clear households did as well. As I said, we are considering guidelines from the Department for Education requiring how we can nevertheless encourage saving and encourage local authorities to make those payments, so the hon. children to save. Obviously, we have to work within the Lady is right to raise her concerns in relation to the constraints of the public finances, but that work will Scottish Government. I shall take this opportunity to explore the idea of allowing parents potentially to open say to her what she has probably already said to the a tax-free account for children born after child trust Scottish Government. As a devolved Administration, fund eligibility ends. I am sure that, as part of that, we they, too, can take decisions about whether they want to would look at the group of looked-after children, in the see this area as a priority for children in Scotland and same way that they were part of the child trust fund for looked-after children—the group about which the scheme. For most children in Britain, the account was hon. Lady is particularly concerned. triggered and opened by the parents, but for looked-after children, it was the local authority that took that approach. The hon. Lady talked about keeping the top-ups for looked-after children in place, despite the difficult decisions Any such account would not have Government that we are having to take about child trust funds. We contributions going into it, but potentially could have examined some of the challenges in relation to doing some of the other features of child trust funds. Clearly, that. We recognise that looked-after children need to however, if we go down that road, we need to consider have additional support, and certainly in England we the design of any account carefully. It is clear that it will be looking at how we can ensure that that happens. would not be exactly the same as the child trust fund. Ultimately, however, we just did not believe that continuing However, I can reassure the hon. Lady that we are to pay the £100 top-ups to looked-after children would trying to find our way through the problems that we be the most effective way of providing that support, face today, which are grave and must be tackled, while given the broader pressures that we faced in relation to at the same time ensuring that on these important public services and ensuring that we tackled the deficit. issues, for the longer term, we still do what we can to That is why we took the difficult decision that the support these children and address the issues. top-ups would be stopped in due course. Time is moving on. I shall try to ensure that I have One issue that we examined was that when local covered the other issues that the hon. Lady raised. She authorities make those £100 payments, it costs them talks about social mobility and she is absolutely right. I £122. Part of the challenge that we face now is that that passionately believe in social mobility. She is right to extra £22 spent on administration would be much better talk about ensuring that we support looked-after children put into front-line services. When we considered that, it and that particularly when they leave care and face all just did not make sense to continue those £100 payments, the challenges that she referred to, they get support. especially given the impact that that would have had on Certainly in England, we are very keen to consider the the broader budget and the fact that the £100 payments overall package of support for these children, and I would be locked away until the children reached 18. know that my colleagues in the Department for Education They were not going to get the benefit from them for are doing that. many years, and our concern was that we want them to I am certain, given the hon. Lady’s clear interest in reach that age in a country that is not paying hand over the issue, that she will follow it up in the Scottish fist for debt interest and that does have money to pump Parliament. Indeed, she has a long track record not just 235WH Child Trust Fund (Looked-after 19 OCTOBER 2010 236WH Children) [Justine Greening] School Funding (Wyre Forest) of expressing an interest, but of being involved in direct 1pm policy making in this area. It is great that that experience has been brought into the UK Parliament. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I thank the Minister I can see time ticking on. To conclude, I again for coming along this afternoon to listen to what I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate and believe is a very special case for Wyre Forest: its school on her eloquent and passionate description of the needs building programme. of looked-after children. As I have explained, I agree I am very pleased to have secured this debate, as it that these children, alongside other disadvantaged children, gives me an excellent opportunity to put on record the need more support than many children. Only last week, case for the funding of school building in Wyre Forest. the Deputy Prime Minister was talking about the fairness However, before I get to the main thrust of my argument, premium to ensure that we can target and help those I want also to put on record how incredibly grateful I children growing up who perhaps need the most support am to Lord Hill, the Under-Secretary of State for to make sure that they can get the opportunities that Education with responsibility for the Building Schools many children in this country have, but too many do for the Future programme, who agreed to meet last not. week with seven of my local school heads, the chief executive of Worcestershire county council and the We are passionate about tackling disadvantage, including officer in charge of the council’s estates. It was an for looked-after children, and we want to provide incredibly helpful meeting and, I believe, very constructive, that support, but as a Government—a coalition and I hope that it bears dividends. Government—we just do not think that the child trust fund is the best way to do that. Those children, including To underscore the argument, it would help if I gave looked-after children, need support now, rather than the history behind what is going on in Wyre Forest. having it locked away until they are 18. It would not Wyre Forest is—or was—part of the wave 6a tranche of have been the best use of our limited money, either for the Building Schools for the Future programme. As a looked-after children or for others— result of the cancellation of some 700 BSF projects across the country, Wyre Forest has now lost the rebuild Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I thank or partial rebuild of five secondary schools. I am certainly both hon. Ladies for taking part in the debate. We now not here to argue in favour of the BSF programme. My move on to the next debate. constituents, particularly those who have had a lot to do with the programme, think that BSF was an overly bureaucratic and unnecessarily expensive way to deliver what is otherwise a very good outcome: new schools fit for the 21st century. Indeed, Worcestershire county council was encouraged by the previous Government to spend about £3 million on the programme, on what have amounted to largely unnecessarily bureaucratic measures. However, in Wyre Forest we are just part way through a major schools reorganisation, and the implications of the BSF cancellation are widespread. It is not just that five schools have had their rebuilds cancelled; as a direct result of the decision by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, a total of 11 schools in Wyre Forest face an uncertain future regarding their accommodation, and a special school has failed to take advantage of a unique opportunity. About 10 years ago, Worcestershire county council was instructed by the Department for Education to look into a number of local education issues that were causing concern. In very simple terms, there were three key issues: failing standards and lower-than-average pupil retention into the sixth form; a very small surplus of accommodation; and Wyre Forest’s adoption of a three-tier system of education as opposed to the two-tier one, which was, I believe, used in more than 90% of the country at the time. The county council undertook not one but two consultations among parents, pupils and staff across the whole district, and in April 2005 the county council cabinet took the bold decision to implement what is now widely known as the Wyre Forest schools review. That incredibly bold decision introduced the biggest school changes ever undertaken in this country, and culminated in moving 45 three-tier schools into just 30 two-tier ones. In August 2007, all 45 first, middle and high schools were closed, and just 30 primary and secondary schools were opened in September. All middle schools and a 237WH School Funding (Wyre Forest)19 OCTOBER 2010 School Funding (Wyre Forest) 238WH handful of primary schools were closed for ever. It is Mark Garnier: I am very grateful for that intervention. important to underscore the enormity of that undertaking. My hon. Friend is an example of just how good the Every child, parent and teacher, as well as all the education system in Wyre Forest can be: he has come support staff, were involved in this colossal local change. from Kidderminster to Westminster and has done very A third of the education estate in Wyre Forest was well as a newly elected Member of Parliament. He closed, never to be reopened. Every member of staff raises a very interesting point. The school was initially had to reapply for their job, many children were moved endowed by Harry Cheshire, a local philanthropist, and from one school to another, and parents had to adapt to due to changes over the past few years it is now called changes that they were not expecting. Importantly, Baxter college. I shall certainly take up that issue with accommodation became very cramped across the whole the headmaster; I know that my hon. Friend is very Wyre Forest school system. But my constituents, in a keen on this campaign. manner that I am finding is typical of them, knuckled The idea was to have a learning village that contained down as a group to deal with the disruption, and not just Baxter college and St John’s primary, but teachers and other staff made huge efforts to ensure Wyre Forest special school. That school would have that standards were kept as high as possible and that no accommodated, on the same site, the unusually large child was at any time disadvantaged by the process of number of special needs children that, for historic reasons, change. The past five years have been very traumatic in we have in Wyre Forest, alongside regular pupils. Wyre Forest, but the light at the end of the tunnel has The three linked proposals that I have described always been that in the end the district would have demonstrate an economy of scale that I hope the Minister education facilities fit for the 21st century—until, of would welcome, but the vision of the Baxter learning course, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for village not only encompasses value for money, but just Education made his decision to cancel BSF in Wyre as significantly teaches the importance of inclusion to Forest. all pupils on the site. The special needs school must go The knock-on effect of the BSF cancellation has ahead irrespective of BSF or any other building been immense. As I have mentioned, five secondary programmes for the more regular schools in Wyre Forest, schools have been cancelled. As I have said, I am not and the county council has therefore had to divert funds here to argue for BSF, but the vision for the district was to that important resource. That has had knock-on far greater. Because of the building programme, the effects elsewhere in the Wyre Forest school building county council made what I believe was a wise decision— programme. The council has found money from its own that economies of scale could be introduced. Accordingly, resources to build a number of schools, but has had to three of the secondary schools were to have primary cancel the rebuild of a further three primary schools: schools located on their sites. Stourport high school, a Franche primary school is suffering a split site and the school rated as excellent, was to have Burlish Park significant dilapidation of its estate; St Oswald’s has primary school built on its single site. Stourport was manageable problems but is facing a bulge in entry and built for about 900 pupils, but now accommodates desperately needs two new classrooms; and Cookley about 1,400 on a split site, with significant numbers of primary is in a class of its own. pupils in temporary classrooms. I shall refer to Burlish I would like to talk about Burlish Park and Cookley Park primary school a little later, because it is important primary schools together. These two schools, for me, in its own right. epitomise all that is good and all that is bad about the Kidderminster’s King Charles I school now has primary schools in Wyre Forest. That we are asking 1,300 pupils on two sites that are 10 minutes apart and teachers and staff to work in these conditions is appalling. separated by a main road. There are 880 pupils on one That they are doing so, and doing as good a job as they site and 420 on the other. Only recently, a child was can, is a testament to the incredible dedication of the involved in a road accident there, but I am happy to say teaching staff that I have met both at these and at other that it was not serious. King Charles I was to have a schools across Wyre Forest. The two schools highlight complete rebuild, and was to accommodate Comberton the appalling problems that we face locally. primary school on its new single site. Comberton was Burlish Park was built as a first school, but it is now built as a one-form entry school, but is now struggling taking children from nursery to year 6. Some 470 children as one-and-a-half-form entry and is being asked to have to take lunch in not one, or two, but three sittings. become two-form entry this year, accommodating half There is nowhere to accommodate children on wet its pupils in temporary classrooms. playtimes. Classes are taken in a corridor alongside gym and dance lessons. The school’s pupils cannot congregate The most visionary development was to have been together in one go. The staff room is too small to the learning village at Baxter college. There was to have accommodate even a small proportion of the staff, who been a major rebuild, alongside St John’s primary school, have to prepare for lessons at home using their own IT of the 70-year-old building, which accommodates just equipment. Seventy female staff have just two lavatories under 1,100 pupils. between them. We always say that it is not buildings that teach, but teachers. However, if a teacher has to Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I congratulate queue for 20 minutes to use the bathroom, that causes my hon. Friend on securing this excellent debate. I classes significant problems. When looking through the attended St John’s first school and middle school, and school’s 20-page urgent maintenance schedule, the head Baxter college, so I know first hand the importance of teacher and I totted up more than £1 million of urgent delivering improvements and investing in schools. I maintenance work in just three or four pages. The would, however, politely request that, should my hon. school is derelict. Friend secure any investment, he insist that Baxter Cookley has similar problems. The school is based in college revert to its original name of Harry Cheshire a Victorian school block and so is arguably better built high school. than the 1960s block at Burlish Park, but its accommodation 239WH School Funding (Wyre Forest)19 OCTOBER 2010 School Funding (Wyre Forest) 240WH

[Mark Garnier] and to use joint sites, as I described earlier. The plans put forward for Wyre Forest are exciting and incredibly problems are just as bad. A series of classes in corridors well thought through. Failing to deliver at this late stage and the building’s antiquated layout meant that the would be to lose an incredible opportunity for a school only just received a provisional pass from Ofsted. comprehensive, district-wide schools building programme. That was because the safeguarding provisions were far Officers at Worcestershire county council will work below standard, but Ofsted was prepared to pass the with civil servants at the Department for Education, school because it was due for a rebuild. We can only and they will put a comprehensive and excellent case for assume that it will be very unhappy if the situation is Wyre Forest. As I said, I am incredibly grateful to Lord not resolved. Hill for his meeting last week, but, in my closing words, These two schools illustrate how the good-will elastic I ask the Minster to reinforce the message that we are band can be stretched only so far. Staff and parents trying to deliver. There is acute dilapidation in the have had their good will stretched just about as far as it estate and a severe lack of space for staff and pupils. We will go. With the cancellation of the rebuilding programme, want the opportunity to deliver excellent value for the light at the end of the tunnel has been extinguished, money through economies of scale by completing the and that is unfair. work started almost a decade ago and delivering In Bewdley, the high school has had a partial rebuild, 21st century schools for Wyre Forest. but there are dilapidation issues, as well as safeguarding issues where the school grounds back unguarded on to 1.14 pm the fast-flowing River Severn. Wolverley high school The Minister of State, Department for Education has its own portakabin village, but these temporary (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the classrooms are rotting and need replacing imminently. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) on securing The schools that I have described make up the 11 schools this important debate. I thank him for his strong support that have been hit by the BSF cancellation. However, for the coalition’s education reforms and his kind words Wyre Forest is even unluckier than that. The five secondary about Lord Hill. My hon. Friend is an exceptionally schools are part of a wider consortium of schools committed campaigner on behalf of his constituency’s known as the ContinU Trust, a collegiate trust comprising schools. As he has just proved in his speech, he is also a Wyre Forest’s five secondary schools, two secondary strong advocate of improving provision for all pupils, schools from Bromsgrove and Kidderminster college. teachers and parents across the country. At this point, I must declare an interest as I sit as a As my hon. Friend knows, the coalition Government governor at Kidderminster college. Through the college, very much share that priority. That is why we have made the trust was to have built a new learning centre on one it our mission from day one to make this country’s of the redundant middle school sites, but the project education system among the very best in the world by was cancelled in the past 18 months or so as a result of restoring confidence in our qualifications and exam the Learning and Skills Council funding fiasco, in which system and by ensuring that school prepares every pupil 144 colleges across the country lost their funding. That for success. That ambition is based on the simple but loss only adds to the accommodation problems in Wyre profoundly important principles of giving teachers and Forest. heads greater freedom, giving parents greater choice, I am here to plead Wyre Forest’s case on two principal providing higher standards for pupils and reducing the issues: capacity and dilapidation. Across Wyre Forest, amount of red tape in the system. 23%—nearly a quarter—of pupils are in temporary As I hope my hon. Friend will agree, the coalition accommodation, and that rises to 50% in some of the Government have already taken important steps to schools that I have mentioned. Teachers do not have achieve those aims in their first few months. We have, basic needs met to allow them to prepare for classes. for instance, expanded the academies programme so They do not have sufficient IT provision or quiet work that all schools can enjoy the greater freedoms that areas and resource rooms where they can gather their academy status brings. We are looking at the national thoughts. They are not given sufficient space to be able curriculum, with the intention of restoring it to its to rest in staff rooms, where staff can outnumber available intended purpose of setting out a minimum core entitlement chairs by 10 to one. There are not enough bathroom beyond which teachers can tailor their tuition to meet facilities for female staff, although male staff seem to be the particular needs of their pupils. We are also allowing doing very well, because there are fewer men, and there parents, teachers and other groups to set up free schools is at least one lavatory per man. so that each local area has a good mix of provision, Pupils are taught in corridors in many schools. There feels the responsibility to raise standards in every school is little or no storage space for equipment. Many pupils and offers parents real choice for their children. lack sufficient, safeguarded outside spaces. The wider As my hon. Friend argued so persuasively, school estate is dilapidated. Given where Wyre Forest featured buildings, teaching staff and pupils are also important on the priority list—it was part of wave 6a of BSF—the as part of the continuing investment in our school school buildings have generally not been maintained. system. The coalition Government are absolutely committed That was done on the instructions of the county council to ensuring that that remains the case, but it is nevertheless and, ultimately, the Department for Education, to save critical that future spending in Wyre Forest, and indeed resources for the new rebuild. The dilapidation is quite the rest of the country, represents the best possible acute, and the cost of carrying out essential maintenance value for money during these exceptionally difficult work is immense. economic times. The economies of scale in the building programme Building Schools for the Future was, of course, an still to be carried out are a huge incentive to undertake important programme for the previous Government, all the remaining building works in quick succession who aimed to rebuild or refurbish every one of our 241WH School Funding (Wyre Forest)19 OCTOBER 2010 School Funding (Wyre Forest) 242WH

3,500 secondary schools by 2023. That was undoubtedly quarter of the pupils—in some schools half the pupils—are a bold and impressive ambition, but unfortunately it having lessons in temporary accommodation. I have failed to live up to the hype. During the five years of the seen the photographs that my hon. Friend brought to BSF programme, just 265 schools benefited. The figure the meeting with Lord Hill and I share his concern for schools that were completely rebuilt was just 146. about the state of the fabric of some buildings. My hon. Where BSF has delivered, it has been at an exorbitant Friend talked ably about Burlish Park primary school, cost. As has been pointed out, rebuilding a school where there is no accommodation for children on wet under BSF has turned out to be three times more playtimes, and where classes are sometimes taken in the expensive than constructing a commercial building and corridor, alongside gym and dance lessons. He also twice as expensive as building a school in Ireland. While discussed Cookley primary school where, because classes the BSF budget grew from £45 billion to £55 billion, the are taking place in corridors, there was a risk that time scale also grew, from 10 years to a projected Ofsted would fail it on well-being grounds. He makes a 18 years. powerful case about need in his area. Some of the reasons behind that additional cost and The end of BSF, however, does not mean the end of delay were understandable, but the fact remains that capital spending on schools. Money will be spent on BSF had become a vast and confusing morass of process school buildings in future, but it is imperative that it is and cost upon cost by the time that it was ended, spent on school infrastructure and the buildings themselves, representing extremely poor value for money, as my and not on process, as my hon. Friend pointed out— hon. Friend acknowledged. Indeed, £60 million of the particularly if we are to meet the increasing demand for £250 million spent on BSF was frittered away on consultants school places in the coming years as the birth rate rises. and advisory costs before a brick was even laid. That is why we appointed the group headed by Sebastian Nobody comes into politics to cut funding, least of James, the group operations director of DSG International, all a new Government who have inherited a school to conduct a root and branch review of all capital system that has desperately short-changed so many of investment in schools, sixth form colleges and other its students, and particularly those from poorer services for which the Department is responsible. The communities. We recognise that these things can be group is due to report back to us at the end of December, extremely frustrating for areas close to the cut-off point and will be looking at how best to meet parental demand; for BSF, of which my hon. Friend’s constituency was make design and procurement cost-effective and efficient; one. Five schools in his constituency have had to have and overhaul the allocation and targeting of capital. their BSF programmes stopped, and that has That will give us the means to ensure that future understandably caused real dismay among students, decisions on capital spending are based on actual need, teachers and parents. As my hon. Friend has said, which I know is one of my hon. Friend’s chief concerns, things do not stop there; 11 schools in the area have and on ensuring that all schools provide an environment been affected by the decision. that supports high-quality education. However, given I am also aware that my hon. Friend has raised the the fact that the review is still in progress, I am sure issue of Wyre Forest Building Schools for the Future my hon. Friend will forgive me and understand that projects directly with the Department, pointing out the I cannot make any specific commitments today about difficulty of operating primary and secondary schools how much money will be allocated, or exactly when. I in buildings that were designed for the three-tier system am sure that that will disappoint students at Stourport of first, middle and upper schools. He has been and high school, and other young people who have campaigned remains a powerful and assiduous advocate of his so hard for their schools in his constituency. I would at constituency in the House. However, it is important to least like to assure my hon. Friend, as well as parents, stress from the outset that every area in the country has staff and students in Wyre Forest, that the Department been treated consistently and fairly, with no one authority will continue to make capital allocations on the basis of or community singled out for cuts. In deciding which need—particularly dilapidation and deprivation—and projects would be taken forward and which would end that the end of BSF does not mean the end of school we developed a single set of criteria and applied it rebuilding. uniformly across the country. Those school projects I know that my hon. Friend is worried about the that were part of their area’s initial BSF schemes and fairness of per pupil funding in Wyre Forest and which had reached financial close were allowed to continue, Worcestershire, as well as about capital expenditure. I as were the sample projects that were part of their area’s can assure him that we share those concerns. We recognise initial BSF schemes, where financial close had not been that the spend-plus methodology has provided some reached but where a preferred bidder had been appointed stability and predictability, which many schools and at the close of dialogue. Thirdly, a number of planned local authorities have welcomed, but we nevertheless school projects, in addition to a local authority’s initial intend to undertake a thorough review of the current scheme, were allowed to continue. system, which will consider how to fund schools for As we have heard today, the BSF projects in my hon. 2012 and beyond, and look at how we can ensure that Friend’s constituency were not, unfortunately, additional each and every school in the country is fairly funded. In projects; nor had they appointed a preferred bidder, and addition, I am sure that my hon. Friend welcomes the therefore they had not reached financial close either. As Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement last week on none of the criteria applied, they could not go ahead, the fairness premium, which will help disadvantaged apart from the Tudor Grange academy, which will be students to receive the support they need to reach their unaffected. potential. That is intended to tackle one of the failings I listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s excellent of the past decade in schools, when the achievement speech and one cannot help but be moved on hearing of gap between the richest and poorest children actually the state of the fabric in some of the buildings, where a grew. The odds of a pupil on free school meals achieving 243WH School Funding (Wyre Forest) 19 OCTOBER 2010 244WH

[Mr Nick Gibb] Wedgwood Museum five or more GCSEs at A to C, including English and maths, currently stand at less than one third of those for 1.27 pm a pupil who is not on free school meals doing so. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): It is a In conclusion, I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind great pleasure to raise the future of the Wedgwood the economic background to the matters that we are museum. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for considering. No one comes into politics to cut public Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for joining me spending, but the Government face a £156 billion deficit— here, as well as the Minister, who has proved generous the largest among all the G20 countries—and it is our with his time and attention in this matter. responsibility, difficult and painful as it may be, to do We are here to highlight one of the greatest cultural something about it. In the current financial climate, and collections in England, and the threat to its future. On with the announcement of the comprehensive spending the southern edge of Stoke-on-Trent, in the constituency review tomorrow, we have a particular duty to ensure of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent that we continue to invest where investment is needed, South (Robert Flello), stands a museum dedicated to to get the best possible value for taxpayers’ money, and to achieve the right balance between spending and “The People Who Have Made Objects of Great Beauty from other means of school improvement. the Soils of Staffordshire.” In 2009, it won the £100,000 Art Fund prize for museums Change will not be effected just through spending and galleries, and the judges praised it as a “brilliant decisions, but by the creation of a system that puts snapshot”, highlighting the marriage of art, design, more trust in the professionals who work in it. The manufacturing and commerce. However, today the museum Government believe that head teachers should have is under threat from a legal quagmire more akin to more of a say in how money is spent, and that teachers Jarndyce v. Jarndyce than any rational museums policy. should have more say in what and how they teach their What is more, the principle at stake in the dissolution of students. We believe that parents should have a real the collection could have major, damaging repercussions choice about what school to send their child to. Future for museums across the UK. spending must support those aims and ensure that money is directed where it is really needed, to pupils, The origins of the Wedgwood museum can be traced school and staff. Finally, I congratulate my hon. Friend to Josiah Wedgwood himself—a former resident of on drawing the matters in question to the attention of what is now the constituency of my hon. Friend the the House, and on the conscientiousness with which he Member for Stoke-on-Trent North. In 1774 he wrote: has pursued his constituents’ matters with the Department. “I have often wish’d I had saved a single specimen of all the new articles I have made, & would now give twenty times the original value for such a collection. I am now, from thinking, and talking a little more upon this subject...resolv’d to make a beginning.” And so resolved, Wedgwood made a beginning on what is undoubtedly among the finest ceramics collections in the world, with some 8,000 objects on display, from black jasper Portland designs to bone china tea sets and Robert Adam-designed vases. The collection testifies both to Wedgwood’s genius and the company’s productivity.

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree, given the context of the debate and his reference to Josiah Wedgwood, that this debate is part of a wider debate about ceramics and the culture of the Potteries, and about the importance of finding a long-term solution for the Wedgwood institute in Burslem?

Tristram Hunt: I absolutely agree. As I hope to point out, the interrelationship between the past and the present is enormously important, drawing on history not simply for archaic reasons but as an economic and cultural motor for the city of Stoke-on-Trent and the county of Staffordshire. As my hon. Friend pointed out, the collection is as much commercial as aesthetic. We see in the museum guides to earthenware and creamware, and to jasper and basalt production.

Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The hon. Gentleman has only half an hour but, as I said in a message I left in his office, I would be grateful for the opportunity to make a short intervention on the subject. As he well knows, the museum, because of the configuration of boundaries, is actually in my constituency. I just wanted to say a few words. 245WH Wedgwood Museum19 OCTOBER 2010 Wedgwood Museum 246WH

Tristram Hunt: I am happy for the hon. Gentleman The museum staff are not employed by the insolvent to say a few words, and I will canter through the Wedgwood firm, but by the entirely independent Wedgwood outlines. Museum Trust Ltd, a completely separate charitable Wedgwood died in 1795, but his descendants, the company. The brand new museum, housing a 250-year-old Wedgwood family, dedicated their collections to the collection, has not gone bankrupt, but it has gone into museum right through the 19th and 20th centuries. administration, because the Pension Protection Fund Indeed, collections from the Wedgwood family were has made a claim on every penny of its assets. donated right up to the last few years. It was always To be fair to the PPF, it has acted intelligently through done as an act of social philanthropy, in the belief that the process, as it seeks to find a solution. However, the collection would be preserved for all future generations, under the “last man standing” principle, the Wedgwood in perpetuity. Wedgwood stands very much in line with museum is still a solvent company: it is the last man the thinking of the Secretary of State’s, who recently standing, because five of its employees are in the same announced: pension fund. The legislation might have had laudable “Philanthropy is central to our vision of a thriving cultural aims in preventing large multinationals from hiding sector”, assets to reduce pension payouts, but somehow charities and called for and trusts have fallen foul of its far-reaching tentacles. “more individual acts of social responsibility”. In such a context, it is important to make it absolutely However, the museum goes far beyond telling the clear that even if the whole collection were sold, it extraordinary life of Wedgwood, the manufacturer, agitator, would not meet even half the pension debt, and the internationalist and salesman. It describes the advent of 7,000 ex-employees would not receive any more pension industrialisation, the nature of the English enlightenment income. The money would simply be swallowed up by and how the French revolution and the struggle against the Pension Protection Fund. Loyal ex-Wedgwood slavery reverberated throughout the UK. For me and employees know this and support our campaign to save some of my colleagues, one of the most inspiring parts the historic collection. They know from experience the of the collection is the series of medallions stating: hard work, craftsmanship and sheer excellence of design “Am I not a man and a brother”, that went into producing many of the pieces in the celebrating Wedgwood’s involvement with the abolitionist collection. All the citizens of Stoke are immeasurably cause. proud of the Wedgwood museum and will be devastated The Wedgwood family and business have always had if it becomes a victim of poorly applied legislation and a keen sense of their place in history. The firm opened a pensions crisis. its first museum in 1906. By 1909, the museum catalogue was packed full of artefacts. In 1962 the family, with Joan Walley: I simply want to put on record my great prescience, aware that the Wedgwood family business thanks, and that of my constituents, to all those Wedgwood was likely to go public, decided formally to separate the employees who, over the years, have made the collection museum from the factory, specifically to prevent the what it is. It is absolutely essential that, when the museum from being used as a realisable asset by any Minister replies, he assures the people of Stoke-on-Trent future predator. Whatever financial difficulties were that he will look at a plan B or at whatever is needed to encountered by Wedgwood, any corporate owners could ensure that we do not end up losing this most precious not sell the collection. Even in 2009, when Waterford of museums. Wedgwood entered administration, Deloitte, the administrator, could not touch the collection and sell it off to pay the many creditors. Tristram Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and wholly concur with her. The museum became a charitable trust in 1998, in order to secure funding for a new building to house the The future of the Wedgwood museum collection now collection. The Heritage Lottery Fund generously rests on a court decision expected in January—though contributed £5.86 million, resulting in a magnificent it would be good to have some clarity on dates from the new museum which opened to the public in 2008, confident Minister—as to whether the collection is alienable. Former in the status of a charitable trust. Since then, unfortunately, Wedgwood employees, local Stoke and Staffordshire an Alice in Wonderland legal situation of such absurdity enthusiasts, Wedgwood family members and leading has developed that it barely seems credible. In January historians, curators, artists and ceramicists are appalled 2009, Waterford Wedgwood, the pottery giant, went by the situation. Sir Neil Cossons, chairman of the into administration. The company was bought by KPS, Royal College of Art, puts it well: an American private equity firm, which managed to “If the court case goes against the museum it will not only be purchase the prize assets of Wedgwood, Royal Doulton catastrophic for one of the finest museums in the country but and Waterford without taking on board any of the blow a hole through all our assumptions about the inalienability £134 million pension liability of the Wedgwood group of collections held by trusts.” pension fund. This was the initial cause of the problem. The case could have major implications for other Pensions legislation, introduced initially in 2005 and museum trusts across the UK. Which museum linked to amended in April 2008, now means that the museum, a a pension deficit of a local authority, university or small charitable trust, is being held responsible for the company might be in difficulties after a poor judgment? £134 million shortfall in the Wedgwood companies’ pension plan, because five of the museum’s staff are Mr Cash rose— among the Wedgwood group pension fund’s 7,000 members. We have the madness of a £60,000 pension liability being liable for £134 million of debts, with a priceless Tristram Hunt: I ought to give way to the hon. collection at risk. How can this be? Gentleman, if he wants to intervene. 247WH Wedgwood Museum19 OCTOBER 2010 Wedgwood Museum 248WH

Mr Cash: If the hon. Gentleman finishes his speech, return to health, and that we have a Government who perhaps I could give a short speech after him. believe in manufacturing and growth outside the south-east. The museum is a good symbol of their commitment to Tristram Hunt: If that is the format, that is okay. a broader vision of a regional economy. As ever, the Minister has listened attentively. We seek some commitment from the Government that they are 1.42 pm doing more than simply watching this car crash take Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am extremely place. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent grateful to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central North asked, what are the Government’s plans for the (Tristram Hunt) for allowing me to speak. The previous Wedgwood museum if the case goes against it? Do the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central was Mr Mark Fisher, Government have plans to amend legislation, to ensure who was a great friend of mine. that such a crazy outcome never befalls another museum? I should like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on Will they put pressure on the Pension Protection Fund the way in which he has conducted himself in this so that if the case goes against the museum there will debate because the issue relates not only to the museum not be a quick-fire sale of historic assets. itself but to the whole question of how we address the The pottery industry of Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent anomalies that can arise when a piece of legislation is far more than a museum piece, as last week’s Ceramics unexpectedly hits a museum and our artistic heritage in 2010 exhibition proved. However, the industry values its such an unpredictable and, I believe, unintended manner. heritage and continues to draw inspiration from the It almost provides a reason for contemplating the idea designs and craftsmanship that the Wedgwood museum of retrospective legislation. It would be extremely rare embodies. It would be a monstrous act of cultural to do that, but there are circumstances that can arise, self-destruction and a betrayal of those very people such as money not being available. A court judgment, who have made objects of great beauty from the soils of which no doubt follows the letter of the law, may have Staffordshire if the museum was allowed to collapse, an unpredictable result, such as the destruction of something and with it a vital component of the meaning and as important as this museum, in my constituency. I memory of the potteries. should like to pay tribute not only to the hon. Gentleman but to all the other hon. Members here. This is a very Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I congratulate important debate, and I want to give the Minister my hon. Friend on securing this extremely important plenty of time in which to reply. debate. It is important not only to the people of north I received a letter from the chairman of the trust a Staffordshire but to people across the globe. This is an few days ago, for which I am grateful, expressing his industry that is at the heart of the beauty and craftsmanship concern and saying that the question of future legislation that goes on around the world. Does he think that it must be discussed with the Government, which we shall would be appropriate for the Minister to furnish the do. Let me add that the reference to the anti-slavery House of Commons Library with details of museums movement by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent that may be in a similar position in future given that Central, who is a distinguished historian, touched me they, too, may have links with pension funds? That because members of my own family were involved. In would enable us to know as soon as possible what other fact, Samuel Lucas and John Bright no doubt had collections around the country may be at similar risk. meetings with the family over it all. As for the future, we must resolve this matter. This is Tristram Hunt: That is a very good point. It would be not just an aberration; it is something that must be interesting to know what other museums could be at the resolved. I know from the useful letter that I received same risk as the Wedgwood museum. Some people from the Minister only a few weeks ago that he himself believe that this is a one-off case, but knowing lawyers is well apprised of that. He said: and judges as I do, that is rarely the case. “I too am concerned to protect the Wedgwood Collection and the award-winning Wedgwood Museum.” Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Does I know that he means what he says. I am quite sure that my hon. Friend agree that this is not just a parochial some means will be found to deal with the matter, issue for north Staffordshire? The Wedgwood museum perhaps using the National Heritage Memorial Fund. I is iconic for the whole industrial and cultural heritage of drew up the first draft of the Bill in the 1970s for Denis the country. Indeed, Wedgwood was one of the first Mahon and Arthur Jones when we had had a historic global brands and is still one of our best-known names. houses meeting. I drafted the Bill and, to all intents and Does he agree, therefore, that it would be sacrilege if it purposes, that is the basis on which that fund now were forced to be sold or broken up as an unintended exists. It was to deal with war surplus and it is now consequence of insolvency regulations relating to pension being topped up. Before, it was just being allowed to funds? If the case were to go against it in court—courts become a wasting asset. I know that the Government are bound by the law—it is vital that legislation is now are committed to that fund and that there are also pushed through to tidy up these loose ends, because, at the lottery funds as well. There are all kinds of ways the end of the day, that is what the House of Commons and means to address the matter. There is the prospect is for. of legislation—perhaps even a private Member’s Bill. I hesitate to suggest anything that has a “Downton Abbey” Tristram Hunt: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. look about it, but to save the entail of Staffordshire, It is crazy for legislation to be applied in this context. It perhaps a private Member’s Bill is appropriate. is right that this museum should be able to provide I should also like to pay tribute to at least one encouragement to the pottery industry in Stoke-on-Trent, member of the family who is here today. I pay tribute to which is beginning to export and innovate more and to the family and to the whole tradition of Wedgwood, 249WH Wedgwood Museum19 OCTOBER 2010 Wedgwood Museum 250WH including its employees and others, such as Christopher were, walk-on parts in an obscure Dickensian novel, in Johnson, who have taken an active part and an intelligent which a complicated piece of legislation has the most interest in the manner in which a resolution can be dramatic and unintended consequences. Potentially, those achieved. Given the fact that the organisation is in a consequences put one of the great cultural jewels of the legal situation, the most that we can do is to find a way nation under threat. out of this impasse. Nevertheless, as a Minister I cannot circumvent the I should also like to pay tribute to Neil Cossons, who law. At this stage, I must simply report to hon. Members is a distinguished expert in heritage and who also worked what I believe to be the current position and then I can with me in the Ironbridge Gorge Museum Trust in the perhaps extrapolate from that position where we might 1970s. He has now gone on to so many great things. To go with a plan A, or indeed a plan B. So I want to have his support is tremendously important. update hon. Members on the progress on the case; I In conclusion, we must find a solution. The Government, want to outline the Government’s position; I want to set I believe, are determined to do so. I wait to hear what out what I believe could be the next steps to protect the our distinguished Minister has to say. museum and avoid the loss of the collection and, as hon. Members have suggested, I also want to consider what we can learn from this case to ensure that other 1.47 pm museums do not find themselves in a similar position in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, the future. Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Iam grateful for the opportunity to speak under your First, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, the Wedgwood chairmanship for the first time, Mr Hollobone. I know museum went into administration in April this year that you will go on to have a distinguished career as a after it was served with a substantial pension debt by Chairman of these kinds of debates, and in many other the company that was set up to manage the Wedgwood areas of the parliamentary process. I also congratulate Group pension plan. The trustees of the museum firmly the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram believe that the museum’s collection is held in special Hunt) on calling this debate to highlight the plight of trust and should not be available to pay that debt. the Wedgwood museum. It has been very enjoyable—I Therefore the administrator, together with the trustees hesitate to use that word—to hear him set out the case of the museum, is preparing to make an application to for the Wedgwood museum in the forceful style to court to clarify the status of the collection. That application which many millions of television viewers have become will be made when certain administrative matters have accustomed. I also express my gratitude to the number been settled, which we are informed should be by the of hon. Members who have attended and spoken in this end of November. Then the administrator will be able debate. I refer to the hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent to make a formal application to court. Although that South (Robert Flello) and for Stoke-on-Trent North application to court will be made as soon as is possible, (Joan Walley), I thank my hon. Friend the Member for the timing of the court hearing is not within the control Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) for his presence and the hon. of the museum or the administrator. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), who As the hon. Gentleman also indicated in his opening intervened. I pay tribute to the speech made by the hon. remarks, the museum is in the unfortunate position that Member for Stone (Mr Cash). We had not only a deep it finds itself in because of its participation in a multi- historical analysis of the importance of the Wedgwood employer pension scheme covering a number of employers collection, but, through my hon. Friend the Member for in the Waterford Wedgwood Group. When the group Stone—he is one of our foremost and most distinguished went into administration in 2009, the museum found constitutional lawyers—we were able to have a tour itself as the last remaining employer in that scheme. d’horizon of the legislative or constitutional solutions Therefore, the museum technically became responsible that might pertain to the future of the Wedgwood for a pension debt that, as the hon. Gentleman indicated, collection. is in the region of £134 million. That pension debt or As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central made shortfall affects some 7,000 members of that pension clear, the Wedgwood collection is part of this country’s scheme, including former employees of Wedgwood Ltd, history. I make no bones about that; it is probably one Josiah Wedgwood & Sons Ltd and Stuart and Sons Ltd. of the most important crafts collections and one of the most important historic collections in the country. It is Due processes now need to be followed to establish an integral collection and, as the hon. Gentleman indicated what assets are potentially available and the Wedgwood in his speech, it has been more than 250 years in the museum is not exempt from those processes. The pension making. It stands, as it were, at one end of the spectrum scheme has now entered an assessment period for the of the craft in which this country continues to thrive, a Pension Protection Fund, the body that was put in spectrum that ranges from the Wedgwood collection to place to ensure that pension scheme members receive a the creation of the Victoria and Albert Museum, which meaningful income in place of their pension, where an is the foremost museum of crafts in the world. Two employer has become insolvent or where there are years ago, the Wedgwood museum won the prestigious insufficient assets. However, the PPF has no control Art Fund prize and the Victoria and Albert Museum of over the sale of the museum’s assets. course reopened its crafts galleries to huge acclaim. We must follow the correct processes. If schemes such It is absolutely clear from the remarks of hon. Members as the Wedgwood Group pension plan were to be admitted that have already been made during this debate and I to the PPF without pursuing the debts owed to them, a hope that it will be absolutely clear from the remarks greater burden would fall on pension schemes that pay that I will make in concluding the debate that none of the pension protection levy. That would then undermine us would like to be in this position. We are almost, as it the financial sustainability of the system and its ability 251WH Wedgwood Museum19 OCTOBER 2010 Wedgwood Museum 252WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] know that hon. Members will agree with me, particularly as it happened under the previous Government, that to serve its purpose. Unfortunately, as I have already that was an important injection of financial support indicated, in this case there is a view that the Wedgwood given the situation that the museum finds itself in. The collection could be a potential asset. Department also gave a one-off grant of £25,000 to The Charity Commission was asked to provide a support the museum’s operational commitments. view on whether the collection is held in permanent As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central pointed endowment or whether it is part of the charity’s corporate out, the Heritage Lottery Fund had already generously property, which is available to creditors. The issue was funded a substantial proportion of the new museum, considered at the very highest level by the Charity but since January of this year it has awarded a grant of Commission. Despite the commission’s sympathy for £50,000 towards the museum’s educational work with the museum and its recognition of the importance of schools, its volunteers’ programme and staff training, the collection, it reached the conclusion that the museum’s to enable the museum to meet the new challenges that it collection was not protected. faces. The commission cannot exercise any discretion in In July, I wrote to the new owners of the Wedgwood that decision and it must reach a conclusion based on company to alert them to the museum’s predicament the facts of the case and the law. However, it is a and to emphasise the importance of the museum’s regulator and it can only reach a view on whether the collection. I am pleased to say that the museum now has collection is held in permanent endowment. The only a good relationship with the new owners of the Wedgwood body able to give a definitive ruling remains a court of company. law. Given what is at stake here and the need for absolute Throughout this time, my Department, the Heritage certainty, the commission has confirmed that it would Lottery Fund, the Museums, Libraries and Archives give consent for the museum to take court proceedings. Council and the Charity Commission have all worked The process of administration intervened before those as closely as possible to support and advise the Wedgwood court proceedings could commence. museum, and to try to plot a way forward. As a result of The Government have not ignored this situation and that work and the efforts of the museum’s director and fully recognise the implications for the people of Stoke- its excellent staff, the museum is still open to the public on-Trent and the potential loss of their heritage and and receiving a steady flow of visitors. It has made indeed the nation’s heritage. strong partnerships with the local cultural and tourist industries, and it has a business plan in place to ensure Mr Cash: I just want to raise the question of equitable that it can continue to operate if the courts should rule relief. I hope that the court, in its generosity, might be in its favour. able to take account of matters of that kind, because of To sum up, I believe that my Department and its course this issue affects trusts. sponsored bodies have acted quickly and effectively to Mr Vaizey: It has been a while since I studied trust support the Wedgwood museum during the past year, law, but I am not quite sure on what grounds equitable when there have been two different Governments. relief would be available in these cases. However, I would defer to more senior counsel on that point. Tristram Hunt: I just want to ask whether the Minister I would like to return to what I was discussing before will be having talks with the PPF. In particular, if the my hon. Friend’s intervention, which is my Department’s judgment goes against the museum and therefore its involvement in the issue of the future of the Wedgwood assets are considered liable, what is the space that the collection. The Department has worked closely with the PPF has, in terms of giving time for raising money and museum’s director and trustees, their legal advisers and for appeals, so that we do not have Sotheby’s and the Charity Commission to assist in this matter. Under Christie’s crawling all over the collection on a Tuesday the last Government, the Department provided assistance morning and so that we can work to save it? to the Wedgwood museum and since I have been in office I have also given as much assistance as I have Mr Vaizey: Let me continue with what I was going to been able to. say, because some of my points may address that issue. I will recap on the Department’s involvement so far. As I was going to say, we must await the outcome of the First, the chairman of the museum approached the court case. However, I will happily discuss with the PPF Department in October 2009 to ask for help in clarifying what more needs to be done. In terms of a plan B, we the status of the collection. Department officials set up have had discussions with two national museums about a meeting with the Charity Commission, in which the what should happen if there is a problem, and we will commission agreed to review the museum’s evidence. work for a solution that way— That led to the commission taking the view about the collection that it did. More important, in January of this year the Museums, 2pm Libraries and Archives Council awarded a grant of Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order £200,000 to the museum to support its legal costs. I No. 10(11)). 49WS Written Ministerial Statements19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

the implementing legislation, crucially including the Written Ministerial 12-week qualifying period itself. The Secretary of State and I have therefore discussed Statements this matter on a number of occasions with both the CBI and the TUC, seeking agreement on changes that we Tuesday 19 October 2010 consider would have improved the implementation regime, to the potential benefit of both employers and agency workers. Unfortunately it has not been possible to find BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS a way forward that would be acceptable to both parties. This outcome is clearly disappointing. However, the Agency Workers Regulations 2010 Government have taken the view that the absolute priority must be not to take any steps that could put at risk the 12-week qualifying period, which significantly The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, mitigates the burdens the legislation will place on employers. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The Agency The Government will not therefore be proceeding with Workers Regulations 2010, implementing the European any amendment of the regulations themselves. We will Agency Workers Directive, were made by the previous instead now use the time that is still available before the Administration in January 2010 and are due to come regulations’ entry into force to develop the best possible into force in October 2011. The Government are aware guidance to help employers comply with their new of the different points of view that have been expressed obligations. by various stakeholders about certain aspects of these regulations and have been considering the way forward. DEFENCE The directive sets out the principle of equal treatment— that Defence Training “the basic working and employment conditions of temporary agency workers shall be, for the duration of their assignment at a user undertaking, at least those that would apply if they had been The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): recruited directly by that undertaking to occupy the same job”. The defence training rationalisation project (DTR) was The default position in the directive is that this principle designed to collocate technical training on a single site should apply from day one of an agency worker’s at MOD St Athan in south Wales, thereby providing assignment. However, the directive also allows member improved, more efficient services’ aeronautical, electro- states some flexibility as to how this principle is applied, mechanical and communication and information systems including the possibility of a qualifying period before the specialist training and to deliver it from new facilities. right to equal treatment arises, as long as this is based on The Metrix consortium was appointed as preferred an agreement reached by “national level” social partners. bidder in January 2007 subject to it developing an Such an agreement was reached by the CBI and TUC, affordable and value-for-money contract proposal. Given with the support of the previous Administration, in the significance of this project and the opportunity to May 2008 and provides the legal basis for the legislation provide a world-class training facility, the Ministry of subsequently put in place, including its provision for a Defence has worked tirelessly to deliver this project. qualifying period of 12 weeks. However, it is now clear that Metrix cannot deliver an Since the formation of the coalition, the Secretary of affordable, commercially robust proposal within the State for Business, Innovation and Skills and I have prescribed period and it has therefore been necessary to discussed the way forward on this issue with a wide terminate the DTR procurement and Metrix’s appointment range of stakeholders. Employers and their representatives as preferred bidder. have expressed a range of concerns regarding the Technical training, collocated on as few sites as possible, regulations, arguing for amendments before their entry remains in our view the best solution for our armed into force that might reduce the burden they place on forces. Equally, St Athan was previously chosen as the business. The Secretary of State and I have both had best location on which to collocate that training for considerable sympathy for some of the arguments we good reasons, and we still hope to base our future have heard, particularly proposals to simplify the definition defence training solution there. We will however now of “pay” under the regulations (especially as far as the carry out some work before finalising the best way administration of performance-related bonuses are ahead; including to confirm both our training and concerned) and the administrative requirements around estates requirement, and the best way to structure the the application of the qualifying period to patterns of solution that will meet them. infrequent, short-term assignments. To ensure momentum is not lost, work on the alternative However, the Government’s ability to make changes options will begin as soon as possible and we hope to be to address such matters is constrained by the fact that able to announce our future plans in the spring. the regulations are based to a significant degree on the agreement brokered by the previous Administration ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS between the CBI and TUC. Due to this unique legal situation, any amendments proposed to the regulations Veterinary Products Committee 2009 (Annual Report) touching upon the subject matter of the CBI and TUC agreement, which did not have the agreement of those The Minister of State, Department for Environment, parties, would face the risk of being set aside in the Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Ihavereceived courts in the event of a legal challenge. the annual report of the Veterinary Products Committee Were that to happen, the effect could be to call into and its sub-committees 2009, which has been published question the very foundation for the fundamentals of today. 51WS Written Ministerial Statements19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS

Copies of the report have been placed in the Libraries regrettable that as a result of this error donation decisions of both Houses. were influenced by incorrect information in 25 cases. I am pleased to acknowledge the valuable work done NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) has rightly by the distinguished members of the Veterinary Products apologised to the affected families. I would like to offer Committee and its sub-committees and thank them for my condolences to the families concerned for their loss the time and effort dedicated in the public interest to and to express gratitude to their late relative for agreeing this important work. to be a donor. Sir Gordon’s review found that the error originated in 1999 when faulty data conversion software was used by UK Transplant (now part of NHSBT) to upload data FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE on individuals’ organ donation wishes from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, when moving to a new Court of Justice of the European Union (Greek Judge) computer system. These individuals had elected, when completing their driving licence application form, to donate some, but not all of their organs. In 25 cases the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth decision by the donor’s relatives to agree to the donation Affairs (Mr William Hague): At a conference of of a particular organ was made using inaccurate representatives of Governments of member states on information about the donor’s wishes as a result of the 20 October 2010 the appointment of a Greek judge to error. Sir Gordon concluded that the error was avoidable the General Court is to be considered. if systematic data verification procedures had been in The nomination is in respect of Dimitrios Gratsias. place in 1999. Having consulted with the Lord Chancellor and Secretary The report provides a detailed explanation of how of State for Justice and the Attorney-General, I agree to the error occurred, how it came to light, and why it was the appointment. not uncovered sooner. It also outlines the remedial action taken by NHSBT and the actions taken to prevent a recurrence. Sir Gordon concludes that once the error was identified and brought to the attention of NHSBT’s HEALTH senior managers it was handled efficiently and sensitively. Sir Gordon has also concluded that the ODR is now NHS Organ Donor Register expected to fulfil functions for which it was not originally designed. He believes that a new interactive ODR based on 21st century technology would help to reduce the The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): scope for human error inherent in the current system. I am today publishing the report of an independent He recommends that a new ODR should be designed review of the NHS organ donor register (ODR) by and commissioned as soon as resources allow. We will Professor Sir Gordon Duff. The review, announced on discuss this recommendation with NHSBT, once it has 11 April, was prompted by an error in the recording of completed its planned scoping and costing of a future the donation wishes of a number of registrants. operating model. I am extremely grateful to Sir Gordon for establishing Sir Gordon has made a number of other so clearly the circumstances surrounding this serious recommendations addressed to NHSBT which are designed error, for his recommendations on how to ensure it does to ensure that the register reflects more clearly the not happen again, and for his wider review of the ODR. wishes of those registered, and that confidence in the Organ donation relies on the generosity of people system is maintained. We look to NHSBT to consider who are willing to donate organs after their death to those recommendations carefully and to respond help change or save the lives of others. If organ donation accordingly. is to help the many people in need of a transplant, it is Sir Gordon’s report has been placed in the Library essential that people who join the ODR have confidence and copies are available for hon. Members in the Vote that their wishes are accurately recorded. It is extremely Office. 7P Petitions19 OCTOBER 2010 Petitions 8P

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition Commons debate this matter; and urge the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government: to exercise Tuesday 19 October 2010 his powers under s225 and 226 of the 2004 Housing Act and s8 of the 1985 Housing Act (c. 68) to see that all local authorities, including Basildon, find enough affordable OBSERVATIONS pitches for all their local Travellers; to urge all local authorities to show humanity by following the decision of the Court of Appeal in 2008 in the Wychavon case, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT by not evicting Travellers, especially those on their own land, until an alternative affordable site is available for Proposed Eviction (Dale Farm and Hovefields, Essex) them, as was intended by the 2004 Housing Act to The Petition of families at Dale Farm and Hovefields happen by 2011; to ask local authorities to follow the to be evicted, their supporters and others, High Court decisions v Basildon in 2000 and 2004 that even normal school children should not be evicted; to Declares that roughly 100 families at Dale Farm and ask Basildon to follow the High Court in the Margaret Hovefields are to be evicted by Basildon Council in Price case by not offering Homeless Travellers only Essex at a cost of over £2 million; that most of the bricks and mortar, but affordable pitches; and to ask families to be evicted by Basildon Council have lived on Basildon not to evict the sick, or the elderly or break its their own land for about seven years, and they include undertaking to the High Court not to use Bailiffs of invalids who will be separated from their Carers and bad conduct. school children, some of whom have Special Needs, who on the roadside will be deprived of their Human And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Right to Education; that this mass eviction will be Julie Morgan, Official Report, 30 March 2010; Vol. 508, carried out by a firm of Bailiffs whose brutality was c. 787.] condemned by the High Court, and therefore breaks [P000803] the solemn signed undertaking by Basildon Council to the High Court, to only use Bailiffs of previous good Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities conduct; and Local Government: Further declares that the Petitioners believe Basildon The Courts have found that Basildon District Council Council is also breaking the terms and the purpose of is within its rights to evict travellers from unauthorised sections 225 and 226 of the 2004 Housing Act, which pitches at Dale Farm and Hovefields. The process of say that every local housing authority must “prepare a eviction is a matter for Basildon District Council. strategy” to meet the “accommodation needs” of the The Government expect those carrying out the eviction “gypsies and travellers residing in or resorting to their to do so responsibly, calmly and lawfully, and for the area”, whilst in fact Basildon Council says that any new Council to meet its responsibility to provide appropriate pitches which it allows will not be reserved for local services for those who need them within its jurisdiction. Travellers who are already residing in the area; that this contradicts their statement that the new pitches will be The Government understand that Basildon District allocated by their housing policy as the 1996 Housing Council has been working closely with the police, emergency Act normally requires a “local connection”; that it also services, local education authority, health authorities means that the local Travellers may have to live by the and social services to ensure that the likely impact of roadside although the 2004 Housing Act promised them eviction on children, vulnerable adults, those with health legal pitches by 2011. conditions and other specific needs is taken into account.

617W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 618W

(2) by how much his Department plans to reduce its Written Answers to contribution to the budget of the British Council in 2010-11. [16104] Questions Alistair Burt: Updated information on the budgets Tuesday 19 October 2010 for the British Council and the BBC World Service will be published in the winter supplementary estimates.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has Afghanistan: Elections for further changes to his Department’s budget in 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [18112] Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many allegations his Department received of electoral fraud Mr Hague: Updated information on the 2010-11 in Helmand province during the parliamentary departmental budget will be published in the Winter elections in Afghanistan in 2010. [18251] Supplementary Estimates.

Mr Hague: The elections in Afghanistan were an High Peace Council Afghan-led process with support from the UK and the international community. The Electoral Complaints Commission (ECC) is the official body in Afghanistan Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for who handle and investigate complaints of electoral Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent fraud. To date, the ECC has received over 4,000 complaints discussions he has had with President Karzai on the in connection with the recent parliamentary elections. work of the High Peace Council. [18252] Allegations of electoral fraud in Helmand have been limited to 57: six have been classed as category ‘A’ Mr Hague: We welcome the establishment of the complaints (based on credible evidence and likely to High Peace Council in Afghanistan. We are in regular affect the outcome); 15 were classed as category ‘B’ contact with the Government of Afghanistan on this (credible, but not likely to impact the overall outcome); and other issues. 36 were classed as category ‘C’ (low credibility, poorly evidenced, unlikely to affect the final outcome). Kosovo: Orthodox Church Democratic Republic of Congo: Sexual Offences

Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has Department is taking to improve the effectiveness of received on the number of (a) Orthodox churches, the UN Mission Stabilization Organization in monasteries and gravestones in Kosovo which have protecting women from sexual violence in the been destroyed or damaged and (b) people who have Democratic Republic of Congo. [18254] been (i) arrested and (ii) convicted for such damage or destruction in each of the last two years. [17716] Mr Hague: The UK has worked to ensure that civilian protection, including protecting women from sexual Mr Lidington: In 2008, twenty incidents of criminal violence, remains the United Nations Organisation damage against Serbian Orthodox sites were reported. Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of Twenty people were arrested in relation to these attacks. the Congo (MONUSCO’s) mandated top priority. In In 2009 there were nineteen incidents reported, leading response to the recently reported mass rapes in Walikale, to twenty six arrests. This year eighteen cases of damaged we have pressed for MONUSCO to take forward urgently or stolen religious monuments have been reported so recommendations to protect and defend civilians better, far, predominantly damage to Serbian Orthodox cemeteries. in particular through communications with the local Kosovo police statistics on arrests in 2010 will not be population. available until the end of the year. Data on the number The primary responsibility for protection of civilians of convictions is not readily available. This is because lies with the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) the Kosovo police do not hold such records centrally. authorities, and my hon. Friend the Minister for Africa raised our concerns with Foreign Minister Thambwe Pope Benedict XVI both during a recent visit to the Democratic Republic of Congo and during their meeting in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. We Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign will continue to urge President Kabila to implement his and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has “Zero Tolerance” policy towards bringing perpetrators made of the implications for his Department’s policies of sexual violence to justice. of the recent visit of Pope Benedict XVI; and if he will Departmental Public Expenditure make a statement. [17422]

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bellingham: Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) by how much United Kingdom—the first official visit by a Pope to his Department plans to reduce its contribution to the this country—was an important milestone in the budget of BBC World Service in 2010-11; [16103] relationship between the UK and the Holy See. 619W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 620W

The visit paved the way for further co-operation Mrs Gillan: I had a brief discussion with the relevant between the UK and the Holy See on a number of Home Office Minister on 5 October who agreed to meet international issues where we share a common goal, me the following week to further discuss issues relating including addressing the challenge of climate change, to the Identity and Passport Service in Newport. promoting multi-faith dialogue as a means of working Following details of the consultation being leaked to for peace in the world, and fighting poverty and disease. the media on 8 October I met the Home Secretary that These were among the issues discussed both in bilateral evening and discussed the issue. I subsequently met the meetings during the visit and at the working dinner with chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service and the Papal delegation hosted by my right hon. Friend the the Immigration Minister on 12 October and will continue Foreign Secretary. to have further relevant meetings and discussions during The visit was also an opportunity to showcase the the consultation period. UK as a home to many religious traditions and to highlight the contribution they can make in a modern pluralistic society. DEFENCE We value our co-operation with the Holy See, and Armed Forces: Dental Services look forward to building on the links established by the visit in the period ahead. Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Serbia: Kosovo Defence what the total annual cost to the public purse is of dental care provision for the armed forces under Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for each budgetary heading. [17616] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his Serbian counterpart on Mr Robathan: In financial year 2009-10, £62.316 million talks between Serbia and Kosovo; and if he will make a was attributed to public funds for the provision of statement. [18253] dental care to the armed forces. This sum is broken down as follows: Mr Hague: I visited Belgrade on 31 August this year Defence dental services, financial year 2009-10 for meetings with my Serbian counterpart, Mr Vuk £ million Jeremic, and the Serbian President, Mr Boris Tadic. I subsequently met Mr Jeremic in New York in September Manpower during the UN General Assembly Ministerial Week. Service pay 46.917 On both occasions I urged Serbia to use the opportunity Service allowances 1.339 provided by the Advisory Opinion of the International Civilian pay 9.035 Court of Justice, which stated that Kosovo’s declaration Total manpower 57.291 of independence was not in violation of international law, to engage in a constructive dialogue with Kosovo, Non-manpower facilitated by the High Representative of the Union for IT and communications 0.036 Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. Inventory/stock consumed 3.380 The Government warmly welcome the subsequent Equipment support 0.040 decision of the Serbian Government to engage in the Training 0.029 dialogue process. The Government firmly believe that Medical—health services 0.730 such a dialogue, which focuses on issues of practical Admin, PR, welfare and medical 0.154 concern, leaving aside the question of Kosovo status, is support equipment the surest way of achieving stability in the region. Fees for professional services 0.053 Travel and subsistence 0.226 Transportation allowances 0.652 WALES Other costs 0.026 Internet: Public Expenditure Receipts -0.301 Total non-manpower 5.025 Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what the cost to the public purse was of the most recent Total 62.316 upgrade to her Department’s website. [16618] Ex-servicemen: Prisoners Mr David Jones: The Wales Office spent £4,441.50 on the recent upgrade of its websites. This included Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for recommended work on a security upgrade, an improved Defence what steps he is taking to reduce the number system for simpler administration and more cost-effective of ex-service personnel entering the prison system. maintenance in the future. It is the first upgrade of the [17615] sites since the redesign of 2007, which cost £10,500. Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the joint Passport Agency: Employment statement I made with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Justice in the House on 15 September 2010, Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Official Report, column 40WS, which indicated that what recent discussions she has had with the Secretary 3.5% of the current prison population in England and of State for the Home Department on Passport Agency Wales are ex-service personnel, with only 6% of these employment in Wales; and if she will make a statement. having started their current sentence within a year of [18027] being discharged from the armed forces. 621W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 622W

Although the figures are low, our aim is to reduce Equality and Human Rights Commission: Scotland them further, and work continues on analysing the ex-service prison population in terms of demographic Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for and service in order to allow us to make informed Scotland if he will have discussions with the Scottish policy decisions. Executive on the future operation of the Equality and The principal contribution the Ministry of Defence Human Rights Commission in Scotland. [17539] (MOD) can make in reducing the potential to offend is Michael Moore: I have not been approached by the by making personnel aware of the opportunities available Scottish Government to hold discussions on this issue. to them on leaving service, in the form of resettlement programmes as part of their general preparation for I met with Kaliani Lyle, Scotland Commissioner of transition. Furthermore, all service leavers, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission on 14 July those who leave early, are entitled to lifetime support 2010. The Equality and Human Rights Commission is from the Regular Forces Employment Association and one of the bodies covered by the Government’s review Officers’ Association charities, both of which are specifically of Public Bodies, on which the Minister for the Cabinet focused on getting veterans into the right job. Office made an announcement on 14 October 2010. The review proposed that the Commission should be Where former service personnel have entered the retained but with a better focus on its core functions as prison system, the Ex-Service Offenders Working Group an equality regulator and National Human Rights (formerly known as the Veterans Prison In-Reach Working Institution. Discussions between the Government Equalities Group) which officials in the MOD chair, brings together Office and the Scottish Government on the future work charitable and voluntary sector organisations, the Service of the Equality and Human Rights Commission are Personnel and Veterans Agency of the MOD, the National ongoing. Offender Management Service (NOMS) of the Ministry of Justice, prison frontline staff, representatives from the devolved Administrations and a representative from TRANSPORT the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health. Together, this Bicycles group aims to provide a common and collaborative approach to the issue of ex-service personnel in the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for criminal justice system, and works to raise awareness Transport whether he plans to take steps to increase the amongst the ex-service prison population of the help level of integration of cycling with other modes of and support available to them and their families while public transport; and if he will make a statement. they serve their sentence and as they prepare for release. This is to ensure a common and collaborative approach [16898] to former personnel in prison in order to minimise the Norman Baker: This coalition Government are firmly risk of reoffending amongst this community. committed to sustainable travel initiatives, including cycling and walking. That is why it is expressly referred to in the coalition agreement. We also want to give more power and more flexibility to local authorities as we SCOTLAND strongly believe that they know best what is right for Elections: Scotland their communities. On 22 September I announced a new ‘Local Sustainable Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Fund’, a bid-based fund that will challenge Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the local transport authorities outside London to develop Scottish Executive on the Interim Electoral packages of measures that support economic growth Management Board for Scotland and the appointment and reduce carbon in their communities as well as delivering cleaner environments, improved safety and of its convenor. [17538] increased levels of physical activity. Michael Moore: The appointment of the Convenor I anticipate that this will include sustainable travel of the Interim Electoral Management Board is a matter measures, including walking and cycling, and initiatives for the Board and the Scottish Government has not to improve integration between travel modes and end-to-end asked to speak to me about this. journey experiences, better public transport and improved traffic management schemes. It could well include measures Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for that support integration of cycling with other modes Scotland if he will introduce legislative proposals to such as bike and rail and help fund initiatives like the put the Interim Electoral Management Board for Leeds Cyclepoint which I recently opened. This new Scotland on a statutory basis in relation to elections facility is modelled on stations in the Netherlands and which are the responsibility of the UK Government. provides secure cycle storage for around 300 cycles, a [17540] small shop, workshop and staff facilities. More details will be announced after the spending Michael Moore: I plan to devolve my responsibility review. for the administration of the Scottish Parliament elections Bus Services: Concessions to the Scottish Government in accordance with the recommendations of the Caiman Commission. It will Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for be then for the Scottish Government to decide whether Transport how many residents of City of Chester they wish to put the Interim Electoral Management constituency hold a free concessionary bus pass; and Board on a statutory basis for that election. I do not how many such residents are higher rate taxpayers. have ministerial responsibility for other UK elections. [17317] 623W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 624W

Norman Baker: The Department for Transport is not Maritime and Coastguard Agency responsible for issuing passes and so does not maintain records of how many passes individual authorities have Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for issued. Transport pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2010, According to Office for National Statistics figures, Official Report, column 183W, on the Maritime and taken at the mid-point of 2007, in the City of Chester Coastguard Agency, on how many occasions he has constituency there were 21,266 people of eligible age for met the chief executive of that body since his a concessionary bus pass. The Department for Transport appointment. [17569] does not hold any figures for the number of people Mike Penning: My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of eligible for concessionary travel by virtue of their disability. State for Transport, has met Sir Alan Massey, the chief Information about how many higher rate taxpayers executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency hold free concessionary bus passes in the City of Chester (MCA) since 20 July 2010, on one occasion. constituency is not available. Since my appointment I have met Richard Parkes, the Concessions interim chief executive of the MCA until 20 July 2010, five times and the new chief executive, four times. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Maritime and Coastguard Agency Transport if he will ensure that the revenue of district councils is not reduced by more than the cost of their David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for concessionary travel schemes as a result of the Transport how many incidents attended by the implementation of his proposals to change the funding Maritime and Coastguard Agency have involved sky route for his Department’s concessionary travel lanterns in the last 12 months; and on how many such scheme. [16607] occasions a (a) lifeboat and (b) helicopter was Norman Baker: The Departments for Transport, requested. [18089] Communities and Local Government held a consultation, Mike Penning: From 1 October 2009 to 30 September which closed 6 October, on the distribution of formula 2010 the Maritime and Coastguard Agency responded grant to local authorities in England. The consultation to 128 false alerts, which Her Majesty’s Coastguard covered proposals for how the transfer of responsibility attributed to, or believed were caused by, sky lanterns. for concessionary travel from lower to upper tier local The majority of the 128 incidents were dealt with by authorities to will be taken into account in authorities’ volunteer Coastguard Rescue Teams in their communities. funding allocations from 2011-12. Lifeboats were tasked on 26 occasions, and on two The total amount of funding to be allocated to all occasions a helicopter was tasked. local authorities will be decided as part of the spending review. Motor Vehicles: Foreign Nationals M18: Repairs and Maintenance David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will introduce a mechanism to ensure Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for that drivers of foreign registered vehicles in the UK Transport when he expects the M18 motorway north of contribute towards road maintenance costs. [17913] Doncaster to be free of lane closures and temporary speed limits; what steps are being taken to expedite the Mike Penning: As stated in the Coalition programme current roadworks; and if he will make a statement. for Government, we are working towards the introduction [17554] of a new system of HGV road user charging to ensure that foreign heavy goods vehicles contribute to the Mike Penning: There are five schemes being undertaken upkeep of UK roads that they use and to ensure a fairer on the M18 between junctions 2 and 5 which will arrangement for UK hauliers. continue until the end of March 2011. This includes The Secretary of State has ruled out national road four schemes to replace steel central reserve barrier, pricing for cars on existing roads for the lifetime of this which are approaching the end of their design life, with Parliament. new concrete central reserve barrier. The fifth scheme comprises works to improve the interchange between Railways: Fares the M18 and A1 (M) through the provision of traffic signals. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department takes to regulate The programmes for the five schemes have been the level of rail fare increases. [17644] carefully co-ordinated to minimise the overall duration of the work. Lane restrictions are limited to night time Mrs Villiers: Regulated rail fare increases are managed only in order to minimise disruption to the road user. through provisions in the franchise agreements entered However, a 50 mph speed restriction remains in place at into between the Government and train operating all times for the safety of the travelling public. companies. The current formula is RPI+1% with the The benefits of the barrier work are improved safety exception of certain fares in south eastern and west as a result of the reduced likelihood of crossover type Yorkshire which are currently regulated at RPI+3%. accidents, fewer repairs arising from collision damage Fares increases are regulated for commuter fares around and reduced future maintenance requirements. The London and other big cities; weekly season tickets and improvements at the junction of the M18 and A1 (M) long-distance off-peak return tickets (formerly known will improve reliability and safety by reducing delays at as saver return tickets). For other tickets, train operators the junction. can set their own ticket prices according to market demand. 625W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 626W

Regional Transport Boards Shipping: Pollution

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the Maritime and Coastguard Transport what plans he has for the future of regional Agency’s Counter Pollution and Response Branch last transport boards; and if he will make a statement. reviewed the strategic location of pollution response [17555] equipment. [18108] Norman Baker: In line with the localism agenda it is Mike Penning: The UK counter pollution stockpile for local areas to decide what structures will best assist of response equipment is maintained under a commercial the delivery of transport solutions in the context of contract. Following a review of this contract, in the emerging sub-national governance arrangements. second-half of 2009, a new contract was let in the first quarter of 2010. Roads: Accidents This resulted in changed strategic locations of the equipment from Milford Haven, Liverpool and Perth, to Bristol, Barnsley and Dundee. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 8 September 2010, Thameslink Official Report, column 589W, on roads: accidents, when he expects to bring forward proposals on road Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for casualty reduction; and if he will make a statement. Transport when he expects the order for new trains for [17310] the Thameslink route to be placed. [17928] Mrs Villiers: Any decision to place an order for new Mike Penning: The coalition Government are finalising trains for the Thameslink route is subject to the outcome their priorities for road safety and will make an of the Government’s spending review. announcement by the end of the calendar year about the future direction of road safety policy. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the number of additional Roads: Deaths posts for train drivers to be created as a result of the Thameslink programme. [17929] Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Villiers: Any decision to proceed with the Transport how many (a) deaths and (b) serious Thameslink programme is subject to the outcome of injuries have occurred on roads in Dartford the Government’s Spending Review. constituency in each of the last five years. [17973] Furthermore, the detailed timetable to be operated should the Thameslink programme be fully implemented Mike Penning: The information requested is shown in has not yet been finalised. Consequently, I am not the following table. currently in a position to estimate the numbers of Reported fatalities and serious injuries in road accidents in Dartford additional posts for train drivers that will be required at constituency1: 2005-09 this time. Year of accident Casualty Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for severity: 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Transport how many construction workers are employed on the Thameslink programme; and how Killed 76825many construction posts are expected to be (a) created Seriously 51 44 54 45 34 injured during and (b) sustained throughout the remaining [17930] 1 Based on 2010 constituency boundary. phases of the programme. Mrs Villiers: The Thameslink programme is currently Shipping: Inspections employing approximately 2,600 construction workers and is also supporting a further significant number Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for through the supply chain. Transport how many non UK-registered merchant Decisions on progressing future stages of the Thameslink ships have been detained by the Maritime and programme are dependant on the outcome of the Spending Coastguard Agency as a result of UK Port State Review. Inspections in each of the last three years; and if he will make a statement. [18107] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Mike Penning: The number of non UK-registered Civil Partnerships merchant ships detained by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in each of the last three years is as follows. Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities if she will assess the likely level of take-up of Number of ships provision in legislation for civil partnerships for 2007 87 heterosexual couples. [18110] 2008 68 Lynne Featherstone: There have not been any assessments 2009 62 on the likely take up by heterosexual couples seeking a January to September 2010 45 civil partnership, were it to be provided for in legislation. 627W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 628W

The Civil Partnership Act 2004 was designed to give losses. The Food and Environment Research Agency’s same-sex relationships parity of treatment with civil (Fera’s) National Bee Unit has investigated the causes marriage. To enter into a civil partnership, two people of colony losses in England and Wales and the key must be of the same sex. results are available on its BeeBase website. Civil Partnerships: Marriage The results have shown that the most important risk factor in the mortality or weakening of colonies is deformed wing virus, a virus transmitted by the parasitic Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Minister for Women and varroa mite, clearly indicating failed or unsuccessful Equalities if she will assess the likely level of take-up of treatments of mite infestations. This highlights the provision in legislation for same-sex marriage. [18111] importance of improving bee husbandry standards, which is a key objective of the Healthy Bees Plan, currently Lynne Featherstone: There have not been any assessments being delivered in partnership by Fera, the Welsh Assembly of the likely take up of same-sex marriage, were it to be Government and others such as the Bee Farmers’ provided for in legislation. Association, NFU, British Beekeepers’ Association and the Welsh Beekeepers’ Association. Clothing: Sustainable Development ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Aarhus Convention Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is taking to implement its Sustainable Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable Clothing Action Plan. [17065] she has set for the implementation of the provisions of Article 9 of the Aarhus Convention. [17116] Mr Paice: The Sustainable Clothing Action Plan (SCAP) contains agreed actions by government and Richard Benyon: The UK has implemented article 9 others to improve the sustainability of clothing. Although of the Aarhus convention. In addition, we intend to DEFRA has some, most of the actions belong to businesses consolidate the case law on protective costs orders; and and other organisations along the clothing supply chain. we are preparing draft rules for consideration by the As actions in the SCAP are completed, organisations Civil Procedure Rule Committee, which are expected to have agreed to disseminate the lessons learned and best be implemented by April 2011 at the latest. practice to the wider clothing sector. DEFRA will publish a progress report in early 2011. Agriculture: Litter Dairy Farming Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate the financial loss to farmers arising from (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take damage to crops, (b) damage to farm equipment and steps to ensure that future proposals for intensive dairy (c) injury or death of livestock attributable to the farming in the UK (a) are examined by her uncontrolled flight of Chinese lanterns in the latest Department, (b) take account of the views of local period for which figures are available. [17695] residents and (c) do not affect adversely the natural environment. [17541] Mr Paice: We have anecdotal evidence of the damage caused by Chinese lanterns but this is insufficient to Mr Paice: In the assessment of planning applications make any estimates of losses incurred. We have met for agriculture development proposals, it is a matter for with the Farming Unions and others in order to begin the relevant planning authority to take account of the to build an evidence base of the problems caused. views of local residents. DEFRA and the Department for Business Innovation DEFRA already has comprehensive animal welfare and Skills (BIS) are aware of concerns about the damage and environment legislation which applies to all livestock caused by Chinese lanterns and are looking into possible farming whatever the system and regardless of size. actions to reduce the risks posed. BIS will also be working with local authority trading standards to encourage Dairy Farming: Animal Welfare importers to improve the safety of these products and to make them fully biodegradable. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Bees: Diseases assessment she has made of the health and welfare standards for large scale dairy enterprises in which Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for cows are housed indoors all year round. [17742] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated Mr Paice: All dairy cattle, in whatever system they research into colony collapse disorder. [17109] are kept, are protected by comprehensive animal welfare legislation. In England, the welfare of cattle is protected Mr Paice: Colony collapse disorder is the term given by the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which makes it an to the abnormally high colony losses occurring in the offence to cause unnecessary suffering to any animal. USA, usually characterized by sudden disappearance of The Act also contains a duty of care to animals, this bees. This characteristic has not been observed in the means that anyone responsible for an animal must take UK, although there have been some significant bee reasonable steps to make sure the animal’s needs are 629W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 630W met. These general requirements are supplemented by Richard Benyon: DEFRA has engaged 30 interns in more detailed ones in the Welfare of Farmed Animals the 12-month period up to October 2010 under two (England) Regulations 2007 for calves and cattle, covering separate Government schemes. All interns worked on areas such as accommodation, tethering, inspection, short projects within Core DEFRA lasting eight to feed and water. 12 weeks and received payment for their work. It is important to recognise that poor welfare may We do not have data for how many interns the occur in both intensive and extensive systems. The most agencies have engaged or data on unpaid interns and to significant influence on the welfare of livestock is the gather this data would be a disproportionate cost. stock-keeper, not the system in which it is reared. DEFRA is currently funding a three year project by Domestic Waste: Recycling the Scottish Agricultural College which is investigating the management and welfare of continuously housed Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for cows. It will compare the health of cows in continuously Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many housed systems with those in summer grazing systems, and what proportion of households in England are by using culling and fertility data. Work on this research provided with a collection of at least two types of is at an early stage, and is due to be completed at the end recyclable waste separately from non-recyclable waste; of June 2011. and what estimate she has made of the likely number of such households after 31 December 2010; [17640] Dangerous Dogs (2) what steps her Department intends to take to Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure compliance by local authorities with the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she provisions of the Household Waste Recycling Act 2003 has to bring forward legislative proposals to amend after 31 December 2010; [17641] legislation regarding dangerous dogs. [17423] (3) how many and what proportion of households in England are not provided with a collection of at least Mr Paice: The recent public consultation exercise on two types of recyclable waste separately from non- dangerous dogs legislation received 4,250 responses. recyclable waste on the grounds of (a) cost and (b) the My ministerial colleague Lord Henley is currently provision of comparable arrangements; and what considering the responses and we expect to make an estimate she has made of the likely number of announcement on our proposed way forward later in households in each such case after 31 December 2010. the autumn. [17642]

Departmental Carbon Emissions Richard Benyon: According to the Waste and Resources Action programme’s (WRAP’s) data, 94% of households Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for in England were provided with a collection of at least Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has two materials in 2008-09. WRAP is in the process of made an estimate of the change in the level of carbon collating data for 2009-10. dioxide emissions from her Department since Neither DEFRA nor WRAP holds data on the reasons May 2010; and what steps she plans to take to meet her why households are or are not provided with a collection Department’s target of reducing such emissions by of at least two recyclables. 10 per cent. by May 2011. [16809] The Government believes that local authorities are Richard Benyon: During the first four months since best placed to make decisions on the efficient use of May 2010, DEFRA emitted 29% less carbon dioxide local resources and are answerable to their local customers from its office estate (Core DEFRA and its Executive on how they comply with the legislation. agencies) than the same period the previous year. The Department has initiated a number of measures Farm Animal Welfare Council to ensure it meet the 10% carbon emissions target. These include: installation and upgrade of building Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for equipment to high efficiency technologies; improved Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate management of building controls; introduction of a she has made of the net effect of abolishing the Farm 19°C winter temperature set point in offices; and a Animal Welfare Council on her Department’s Department wide staff awareness campaign. expenditure in 2011-12. [17629] This performance information and more details on DEFRA’s activities to deliver this target can be found Mr Paice: Further to the announcement on the at: Government’s review of arms length bodies made by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster http://data.gov.uk/departmental-performance-co2-emissions- reduction-date General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude) on 14 October, the Farm Animal Welfare Departmental Work Experience Council will be reconstituted as an Expert Committee to the department. In this capacity, the new committee Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for will provide independent, authoritative and cost effective Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many advice to DEFRA and Departments in the devolved interns her Department has engaged in the last administrations in Scotland and Wales. 12 months; and how many were (a) unpaid, (b) The 2011-12 budget for the new committee has not remunerated with expenses only and (c) paid a salary. been agreed and will be fixed in the light of the [17208] Government’s spending review. 631W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 632W

Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Insurance: Statement of Principles Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Report, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, who will Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent determine the composition of the committee of experts discussions she has had with representatives of the of the Farm Animal Welfare Council. [18177] insurance industry on renewing the Statement of Principles in 2013. [17579] Mr Paice: Further to the announcement on the Government’s review of arm’s length bodies made by Richard Benyon: A flood summit was held on the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster 16 September 2010 where I met with key representatives General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham from the insurance industry, the National Flood Forum, (Mr Maude) on 14 October, Official Report, columns the Environment Agency and local government, amongst 505-06, the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) will others. be reconstituted as an Expert Committee to the department. Participants discussed the current availability and In this capacity, the new Committee will provide affordability of flood insurance and agreed on a roadmap independent, authoritative and cost-effective advice to towards 2013, when the current Statement of Principles DEFRA and Departments in the devolved Administrations between the Government and insurers expires. in Scotland and Wales. Existing members of the FAWC will be given the Kosher Meat: EU Law opportunity to consider whether they are willing to serve on the new Committee. Those willing to serve will Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for transfer to the new Committee. New Expert Committee Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make appointments will be public appointments made an assessment of the effects on the market for kosher administratively by the DEFRA Senior Responsible meat of EU regulations on labelling kosher meat; and if Owner on behalf of Ministers. she will make a statement. [R] [17365] Food: Imports Mr Paice: There are currently no specific EU regulations on labelling kosher meat. However, in the context of Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals for an EU Food Information Regulation, the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will bring European Parliament has suggested an amendment to forward proposals to regulate the importation of soya require food labels to indicate whether an animal has animal feed derived from cleared rainforest. [17331] been stunned before slaughter. I will be meeting with members of the Jewish community in early November Mr Paice: The Government have no plans to bring to hear their concerns about the European Parliament forward proposals to regulate the importation of soy proposal. animal feed derived from cleared rainforest. The importation of soy for animal feed is one of a matrix of policy issues Slaughterhouses: Religious Practice associated with the sustainability of the livestock sector, and the Government need to take a holistic view and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for base policy decisions on a science-based understanding Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent of alternatives. To that end, the Government have estimate she has made of the number of (a) commissioned research into replacements for soy due slaughterhouses and (b) slaughterhouses practising that is due to report in 2012. halal slaughter. [18319] We would also be concerned that any move to regulate in this area would fall foul of international trade rules Mr Paice: There are currently 346 approved and could jeopardise the UK’s and EU’s negotiating slaughterhouses operating in Great Britain. There is no stance in future World Trade Organization discussions. separate approval of Halal slaughterhouses and Food: Labelling consequently we do not know the number of slaughterhouses practising Halal. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sustainable Development Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will bring forward proposals to ensure that food labelling Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for includes information on the use of halal meat. [17665] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 7 September 2010, Official Report, columns Mr Paice: The European Parliament has suggested 425-26W, on the Sustainable Development an amendment to the proposed EU Food Information Commission (SDC), which (a) organisations and (b) Regulations to require food labels to indicate whether commentators she expects to fulfil the Sustainable an animal has been stunned before slaughter. Development Commission’s watchdog function; what I appreciate that this is an issue which people feel criteria Ministers will use to decide the data strongly about and we will be working with interested appropriate to provide to such organisations and groups to find a way to address their concerns. People commentators to scrutinise Government policy and should know what they are buying in shops or when actions on sustainable development; from which they are eating out, and I will be discussing with the organisations her Department and other departments food industry whether labelling and point of sale plans to procure sustainable development expertise; information can play a greater role in giving consumers whether her Department will receive any additional a choice. resources to build its internal capability to champion 633W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 634W sustainable development in policymaking across the Commission is one. In the future, where necessary, Government; and what assessment she made of the we expect policy teams to continue to do this through manner in which her Department will assume the the usual procurement process. SDC’s capacity building function prior to the decision DEFRA leads across Government on sustainable to abolish the SDC. [16422] development. We are considering how best to address capacity-building taking account of the Government’s Mr Paice: The Government expect that Parliament priorities. will play a major role in holding it to account on DEFRA will continue to champion and advocate sustainable development. In addition, there are a range sustainable development in policymaking across of other organisations and commentators with experience Government. We will build our internal capability and seek and expertise in sustainable development who will scrutinise to work with the many external organisations already and comment on our performance. These include national working within this field and who can support us. level non-governmental organisations (NGOs), academic institutions and business groups, as well as international Tobacco organisations such as the United Nations Commission on Sustainable Development and the Organisation for Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Economic Cooperation and Development. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions DEFRA is reviewing its sustainability commitments she has had at EU level on the level of EU subsidy for and we will make sure we are transparent to Parliament tobacco production. [17567] and the public. We have released a draft Departmental Mr Paice: Agreement was reached at the Council of Structural Reform Plan and publish monthly updates Ministers in April 2004 on the reform of the EU tobacco on its delivery. We are also looking at how we will regime. The reforms introduced decoupling into the measure progress using a set of indicators. On operations, tobacco sector, which means that the direct link between we are already publishing real time energy data from production and support is broken and the last direct departmental headquarters. subsidies of EU tobacco production are payable in On procurement, the nature of any sustainable 2010. Consequently it has not been necessary for Ministers development work we might commission will determine to have further discussions on tobacco subsidy at EU which organisations will have the capability to deliver—but level. we would expect these to include, among others, research councils, academic institutions and NGOs. Wines The future resource for championing sustainable Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for development will be agreed as part of the process to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions determine the overall priorities for the Department’s she has had at EU level on the extent of EU wine budget, which is currently under discussion as part of reserves. [17566] the spending review. In line with the Secretary of State’s commitment to Mr Paice: No discussions have been held on the mainstream sustainable development across Government, extent of EU wine reserves. DEFRA is reviewing what capacity building function The UK welcomed the removal, as part of the 2008 will be required. DEFRA expects to concentrate its Wine Reform negotiations, of subsidies previously offered efforts on influencing core policymaking processes, such by the EU to producers to store wine in bulk prior to as ensuring that impact assessments are undertaken bottling, sale or destruction. The holding of stocks of effectively and that sustainable development is fully wine for purposes such as improving its marketability embedded into HM Treasury’s Green Book and central through aging, or prior to supply is a commercial reporting processes. matter. Sustainable Development Commission HOME DEPARTMENT Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Antisocial Behaviour mechanisms are in place to ensure that the functions of the Sustainable Development Commission (SDC) Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for continue to be undertaken after the closure of the the Home Department if she will bring forward SDC. [16863] proposals to amend the definition in legislation of antisocial behaviour in order to ensure more effective Mr Paice: The Sustainable Development Commission’s use of police time. [17881] four functions are to be a watchdog, policy advisory, James Brokenshire [holding answer 18 October 2010]: capacity-building and advocacy. The definition of antisocial behaviour (ASB) was established We believe that there are already many organisations in the 1998 Crime and Disorder Act, but much of what and commentators who will continue to hold the is described as ASB is actually crime, and the public Government to account and thus that a dedicated watchdog expect it to be dealt with properly. On 28 July, my right body is unnecessary.Ministers are accountable to Parliament hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced a review of for the carrying out of their duties. We will continue to ASB tools and powers to ensure that, in future, the publish the necessary data for such scrutiny. police and their partners at local level have a simpler Where the expertise does not already exist internally, toolkit that is less bureaucratic and provides a real DEFRA and other Departments commission additional deterrent. We will bring forward our proposals in due expert advice from a range of organisations, of which course. 635W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 636W

Antisocial Behaviour Orders Departmental Manpower

Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) officials of her Home Department how many (a) officials of her Department and (b) external advisers are working on Department and (b) external advisers are working on her Department’s review of antisocial behaviour her Department’s new strategy to tackle drug misuse. orders. [16559] [16957]

James Brokenshire: On 28 July, the Home Secretary James Brokenshire [holding answer 13 October 2010]: announced a review of the tools and powers available to The development of the new drug strategy is being led the police and other agencies to tackle antisocial behaviour, by the Drug Strategy Unit within the Home Office. A including antisocial behaviour orders. The review is core group of 12 members of staff are working on the being conducted by seven Home Office officials, amongst development of the new strategy. Other areas of the other duties. No external advisers have been employed, Home Office and other Government Departments are but officials are working closely with colleagues from also involved in contributing to what is fundamentally a other government departments and a range of front line cross-departmental strategy. No external advisers are professionals. working for the department on the development of the Antisocial Behaviour: West Midlands new strategy.

Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many antisocial behaviour Home Department how many (a) officials of her orders have been (a) made and (b) breached in respect Department and (b) external advisers are working on of those resident in Wolverhampton South West her Department’s review of changes to UK licensing constituency in each of the last five years. [18003] laws. [17056] James Brokenshire: The latest available data on the James Brokenshire: The review is being led by the number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued Alcohol Strategy Unit within the Home Office. Various and breached covers the period 1 April 1999 to 31 December officials within the unit are working on the review of the 2008. Data collected centrally by the Ministry of Justice Licensing Act, alongside other policy tasks. Officials on the number of ASBOs issued and breached are not from other Government Departments such as Department available below Criminal Justice System (CJS) area for Culture, Media and Sport, Department of Health level. and Business Innovation and Skills are also assisting on the review. No external advisers are working on this Crime Rate: Thames Valley Police review.

Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the Equalities Act 2010 Home Department what the crime detection rate was (a) nationally and (b) in each basic command unit of Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Thames Valley Police in the latest period for which Home Department what estimate she has made of the figures are available. [18140] number of claims against employers made by Nick Herbert: The information requested is given in employees on grounds introduced by the Equalities the table. Act 2010. [17194] Detection rates for basic command units in Thames Valley and England and Lynne Featherstone: The Government’s estimates of Wales: 2009-10 the number of claims against employers made by employees Percentage on grounds introduced by the Equality Act 2010 are set Area Total detection rate Sanction detection rate out in the impact assessment for the Act which was Berkshire East 19 18 published in April 2010 and is available from the Berkshire West 18 18 Government Equalities Office website. Buckinghamshire 18 17 Female Genital Mutilation Milton Keynes 25 24 Oxfordshire 22 21 Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many cases of female England and 28 28 Wales genital mutilation have been reported to UK police in each year since 2003; [17789] Detection rates are a ratio of crimes detected in a (2) what estimate her Department has made of the period to crimes recorded in a period. They are not number of girls resident in the UK who have been based on tracking whether individual crimes recorded taken overseas to undergo female genital mutilation in in a given period have eventually been detected. each of the last three years. [17790] From 1 April 2007 the rules governing recording of non-sanction detections were revised to reduce the scope Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 18 October 2010]: within which they can be claimed to a very small limited There is currently no national database which records set of circumstances. This has significantly reduced the the number of female genital mutilation (FGM) cases number of non-sanction detections which has been reported in the UK. However, Project Azure, a specialist reflected in the overall detection rates. unit within the Metropolitan Police, has been flagging 637W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 638W

FGM incidents since 2006, during which time they have Data broken down to Dartford constituency area are recorded 166 possible cases of FGM. not available. Research suggests a number of barriers to reporting Data on court sentencing in 2009 are planned for incidents of FGM including the age and understanding publication on 21 October 2010. of the victim and pressure from the family or wider Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty at community. all courts, and sentenced to immediate custody, of which more than five years, for firearms offences1 in the Kent police force area and England and Wales, 2006 to No estimate has been made of the number of girls 20082, 3, 4 taken overseas to undergo FGM. In summer 2010, 2006 2007 2008 Project Azure ran a campaign to raise awareness of FGM with families travelling back to practicing countries. Kent police force area Officers operated in Terminal 4, Heathrow airport, in Proceeded against 55 61 79 plain clothes with a view to identifying proactively Found guilty 44 50 61 those girls who may have been at risk of being taken out Sentenced 46 52 60 of the UK for FGM. The initiative also sought to raise Immediate custody 18 16 23 awareness with those communities about the implications of which: of FGM. Findings from this initiative are currently More than five years 3 3 2 being assessed and will determine any follow-up enquiries with girls identified as being at risk of FGM. England and Wales Firearms Proceeded against 2,679 2,696 2,481 Found guilty 2,023 2,113 2,050 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Sentenced 2,033 2,122 2,054 the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 20 Immediate custody 756 767 918 July 2010, Official Report, column 199W, on firearms, of which: if she will ask the National Ballistics Intelligence More than five years 121 132 186 Service to extend its research into the acquisition and 1 Includes the following: Possession of firearms. Firearm certificate related offences, and Miscellaneous firearms offences. use of shotguns by criminals to cover handguns. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were [16412] the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more James Brokenshire: The National Ballistics Intelligence offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum Service (NABIS) prepares and delivers a range of problem penalty is the most severe. profiles and intelligence assessments to UK law enforcement 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted organisations. The subjects covered by these problem from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police profiles and assessments are informed by the Service’s forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection ongoing work to identify emerging threats and trends processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. related to the criminal use of firearms. 4 The sentenced column may exceed those found guilty as it may be the case that In 2009-10, provisional data on firearm offences recorded a defendant found guilty, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. by the police indicate that just under half of all firearm Source: offences involved handguns. Therefore it is already the Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice. case that a significant proportion of the research and Firearms: Children other work of NABIS is focused on the criminal use and acquisition of handguns. Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Firearms: Arrests the Home Department how many children aged (a) 10, (b) 11, (c) 12, (d) 13, (e) 14, (f) 15, (g) 16 and (h) 17 have been granted shotgun licences in each Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the authority area in (i) England, (ii) Scotland and (iii) Home Department how many arrests there were in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are connection with firearms in Dartford constituency in available. [10019] the last three years; and how many such arrests resulted in convictions for which a prison sentence of five years James Brokenshire: The provided data are provisional or more was imposed. [17353] and relate to the number of shotgun certificates held by persons aged under 18 years as at 7 September 2010 James Brokenshire: The information requested on within the police force areas covering England and arrests is not collected centrally. Wales. The information was extracted from the National The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers Firearms Licensing Management System by the National arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, Policing Improvement Agency and is subject to change. broken down at a main offence group level, covering Such data are normally used for management and categories such as violence against the person and robbery. operational information only, and are not subject to the It is not possible to separately identify which arrests detailed quality checks applied to datasets used for under these offence categories were firearms related. National Statistics publications. Information on defendants proceeded against, found Shotgun certificates are renewable every five years. guilty, sentenced to immediate custody of which five Therefore the certificates referred to in the following years or more was imposed and total sentenced for table will have been issued between 2005 and 2010. firearms offences in Kent police force area and England Data relating to firearm and shotgun certificates and Wales, provided by the Ministry of Justice, is provided issued by police forces in Scotland are submitted to, and in the table. published by, the Scottish Government. 639W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 640W

Number of shotgun certificates held by under-18s on 7 September 2010 by police force area: England and Wales Age at last birthday (years) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Total

Avon and Somerset 415419384672189 Bedfordshire 023174111947 Cambridgeshire 2 0 9 17 18 23 44 50 163 Cheshire 04331028202997 City of London 000000000 Cleveland 0001324818 Cumbria 135513253750139 Derbyshire0244814254299 DevonandCornwall1559314770126294 Dorset 0023414292779 Durham 011154272160 DyfedPowys100711173943118 Essex 1 0101118556279236 Gloucestershire 101376262367 Greater Manchester 121065122249 Gwent 01020571328 Hampshire 0 3 2 11 12 27 49 68 172 Hertfordshire0136515182371 Humberside 0100516273382 Kent 224518193562147 Lancashire 1 10 5 6 22 25 37 47 153 Leicestershire1025715232679 Lincolnshire 123810304046140 Merseyside 0014024718 Metropolitan 242513203044120 Norfolk 0 2 7 13 29 41 76 78 246 NorthWales000269222160 North Yorkshire 1 5 5 11 12 45 54 63 196 Northamptonshire 1153213244493 Northumbria 0147611192876 Nottinghamshire 023459202366 South Wales 011457122050 South Yorkshire 1012612272574 Staffordshire0022913243080 Suffolk 0 5 6 13 30 39 45 60 198 Surrey 018716263732127 Sussex 2 1 8 10 25 31 53 84 214 Thames Valley 0 3 4 14 16 41 51 87 216 Warwickshire 1122520163481 WestMercia025514235895202 West Midlands 130459121953 WestYorkshire0013711233075 Wiltshire 001411193557127 Total 26 72 134 231 461 835 1,330 1,810 4,899 Note: The data are provisional and subject to further quality assurance. They are normally for management and operational information only, and are not subject to the detailed quality checks that apply for National Statistics publications. The data represent the total number of shotgun certificates held on the system, for under 18 year olds, on 7 September 2010.

Freedom of Information Act 2000: Compliance Immobilisation of Vehicles Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps her Department is Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the taking to improve its level of compliance with the Home Department if she will assess the merits of provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. introducing legislative proposals for a right of appeal [16939] against seizure and removal of vehicles under Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 13 October 2010]: Section 59 of the Police Reform Act 2002. [17725] The Home Office has recognised that its performance in handling Freedom of Information requests must improve. James Brokenshire [holding answer 18 October 2010]: We have taken a number of steps to achieve this, including We have no plans to introduce such a right. Section 59 a full review of the process for handling requests and enables the police to seize a vehicle they reasonably better monitoring and reporting procedures. These measures believe is being driven both carelessly or inconsiderately have led to an increase in each of the last three months on-road or off-road without authority and in a way that in the proportion of requests answered within the deadline, causes or is likely to cause alarm, distress or annoyance. which we are confident will be sustained. This power of seizure can only be used in carefully 641W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 642W restricted circumstances and following a warning. A Police: Surveillance vehicle that has been seized must be released immediately on payment of a prescribed sum intended only to cover Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for police costs and this payment is waived if the owner is the Home Department whether she plans to review the not personally at fault. When introducing the legislation administrative burden on the police consequent on the the then Minister formally declared it compatible with requirements of (a) the Office of Surveillance the provisions of the Human Rights Act 1988. Commissioners and (b) the Regulation of The remedy for any person who wishes to challenge Investigatory Powers Act 2000. [16828] the police’s decision to seize their vehicle is an action in the county court for trespass to goods. It is also open to James Brokenshire: The Regulation of Investigatory them, if they believe the police acted in any way improperly, Powers Act 2000 (‘RIPA’) requires that public authorities to make a formal complaint against the police. using covert techniques to obtain private information Offensive Weapons: West Midlands keep detailed records against which they can be independently inspected, any error rectified and suitable Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the redress made. The Home Office continue to liaise with Home Department how many offences involving (a) the Office of Surveillance Commissioners and the police knives and (b) firearms were recorded in to minimise any unnecessary bureaucracy associated Wolverhampton South West constituency in 2009-10. with authorisation under RIPA. [18007] Sexual Offences: Convictions James Brokenshire: Data on knife and firearms offences are collected by the Home Office at police force area level. They cannot be broken down to constituency area Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the level. Home Department how many people have been (a) arrested, (b) charged, (c) prosecuted and (d) In 2009-10, 3,216 offences involving the use of a knife convicted in respect of offences under section 53A of or sharp instrument were recorded by West Midlands the Sexual Offences Act 2003. [17980] police. This figure includes unbroken bottle and unbroken glass offences. James Brokenshire: The number of persons proceeded Prior to April 2010, West Midlands police was one of against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all four police forces that included unbroken bottle and courts in England and Wales for the years 2004 to 2008 glass offences in their knife and sharp instrument data (latest available), for the offence ’controlling prostitution returns to the Home Office, which are outside the scope for gain’ under section 53 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, of this collection. can be viewed in the table. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 From April 2010, West Midlands have aligned their came into force on 1 May 2004. Court proceedings data recording practice with the national definition and now for 2009 will be published on 21 October 2010. exclude these unbroken bottle and glass offences. The above information was provided by the Ministry 2009-10 data for police recorded firearms offences of Justice. The information requested on arrests is not will be published in January 2011. collected centrally. The arrests collection held by the Police: Procurement Home Office covers arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, broken down at a main offence group Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for the level, covering categories such as sexual offences and Home Department what recent reviews she has robbery. undertaken of efficiencies in police procurement. Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty1, 2 at all 3 4 [17339] courts for offences under section 53 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 , , England and Wales, 2004 to 2008 Nick Herbert: In Policing in the 21st Century: Number Reconnecting the police and the people, the Government Proceeded against Found guilty5 have made clear that its approach to police value for 2004 1 — money will involve ending the practice of procuring things in 43 different ways when it makes no sense to do 2005 12 3 so either operationally or financially. The Government 2006 18 11 are considering responses to the consultation paper 2007 23 24 Obtaining Better Value for Money from Police Procurement 20086 24 31 which set out proposals for Regulations to mandate the 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom police service to use specified contractual arrangements these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for to purchase particular equipment and services. which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for The joint Report from HM Inspectorate of Constabulary, two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. the Audit Commission and the Wales Audit Office, 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Sustaining value for money in the police service, published complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted on 20 July, identified opportunities for the police service from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection to save money through greater efficiency, including processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those better procurement. Sir Philip Green’s Efficiency Review, data are used. published on 11 October, has also highlighted the potential 3 The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 may 2004. 4 The following corresponding offence description is used: Controlling prostitution to save substantial sums through better procurement for gain. across Government. 643W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 644W

5 The number of defendants found guilty in a particular year may exceed the number proceeded against as the proceedings in the magistrates court took Employment 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 place in an earlier year and the defendants were found guilty at the Crown court status in the following year; or the defendants were found guilty of a different offence to that for which they were originally proceeded against. Workers 12,853 12,916 12,451 12,675 11,368 6 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Members of 208 204 198 198 200 Source: the public Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Total 13,061 13,120 12,649 12,873 11,568 Notes: 1. The annual basis of RIDDOR recording is the planning year from 1 April to ATTORNEY-GENERAL 31 March. 2. The construction industry is identified by Standard Industrial Classification Disclosure of Information: Homicide (SIC), the system used in UK official statistics for classifying businesses by the type of activity they are engaged in. The version used in these statistics is SIC 2003. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Attorney General what Construction: Public Finance guidance the Crown Prosecution Service issues on disclosure to the families of alleged victims of Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work manslaughter of the content of discussions on possible and Pensions what his estimate is of the cost of charges with prosecuting authorities in other EU construction industry to the public purse in the latest member states. [17736] period for which figures are available. [18257] The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Maria Miller: Remploy’s grant in aid funding is (CPS) does not have specific guidance on this issue. published each year in Remploy’s Annual Report and Accounts, copies of which are available in Libraries of both Houses. In 2008-09 Remploy received £121.5 million WORK AND PENSIONS in operational funding and £34 million in modernisation funding. Child Benefit Remploy’s 2009-10 Annual Report and Accounts will be published in the autumn. Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Disability Living Allowance: Medical Examinations effects of the proposal to withdraw child benefit from households where a parent earns over £44,000 per year Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on women who look after children full-time and receive and Pensions (1) what assistance will be offered by his national insurance credits towards their state pension Department to those who are found fit for work after a through child benefit. [18091] medical assessment for disability living allowance; [13489] Steve Webb: We are considering the details of the changes announced to child benefit. We will be assessing (2) whether disability living allowance claimants will this in the coming weeks to ensure that no-one misses be allowed to (a) see the results of their medical out on national insurance credits towards their state assessments and (b) dispute the results of medical pension. assessments with evidence from a medical practitioner; [13490] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (3) what criteria other than medical assessments his and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number Department will use to determine eligibility for of women who will receive a reduction in their state disability living allowance from 2013-14; [13491] pension as a result of the Government’s proposed (4) whether children under the age of 16 will have to changes to child benefit. [18269] undergo a medical assessment for disability living allowance; [13492] Steve Webb: We are considering the details of the (5) whether existing disability living allowance changes announced to child benefit. We will be assessing (DLA) claimants will be required to undergo the new this in the coming weeks to ensure that no-one misses medical assessment for DLA; [13493] out on national insurance credits towards their state pension. (6) whether those whose disability prevents them from being mobile will be required to undergo the Construction: Accidents medical assessment for disability living allowance; [13494] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State (7) whether those who are classified as having severe for Work and Pensions how many accidents have been disabilities will be required to undergo the medical recorded in the construction industry in each year since assessment for disability living allowance. [13495] 2004. [17559] Maria Miller: The Chancellor announced in the Chris Grayling: Notifications of workplace injuries Emergency Budget that the Government will introduce occurring in Great Britain are made under RIDDOR - a new assessment for DLA from 2013-14. It has been the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous determined that the new assessment will be a more Occurrences Regulations 1995. The following table provides accurate, objective and consistent assessment to identify the total number of RIDDOR injury notifications in those claimants who would benefit most from additional the construction industry for the period 2004-05 to support. DLA is not linked to the ability to work and is 2008-09. paid to claimants who are both in and out of work. 645W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 646W

Existing working-age claimants will undergo a new An alternative data source for claimants of JSA is the Annual assessment. To support the Department in the development Population Survey (APS). Whilst the APS does collect data on of that new assessment, we are consulting with an educational achievement no reliable statistics can be produced for independent group of specialists comprising of disabled the requested breakdowns due to small sample sizes. people, relevant health professionals and others with National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant expertise in this area to develop options for a new count are available on the NOMIS website at: assessment. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk We will begin a consultation process on the new proposals later this year. Maternity Pay: Adoption

Equality: Public Finance David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent representations he has Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for received on the extension of maternity pay to adoptive Work and Pensions what plans he has to publish parents; and if he will make a statement. [17645] equality impact assessments undertaken by his Department as part of the comprehensive spending Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply as statutory review; and if he will make a statement. [18033] adoption pay falls within my portfolio. Adopters already benefit from a right to adoption Chris Grayling: Work is under way to carry out leave and pay. Eligible adopters are entitled to 52 weeks’ equality impact assessments as part of the development adoption leave (the same as maternity leave). During of spending review options, and these will be made adoption leave, eligible adopters will receive 39 weeks’ public in due course. statutory adoption pay, paid at the same standard rate as statutory maternity pay. Industrial Health and Safety Public Bodies Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent discussions his Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department has had with representatives of the and Pensions what his plans are for the future of construction industry on health and safety regulation. Remploy Ltd. [18258] [17556] Maria Miller: Remploy plays an important part in Chris Grayling: Since assuming ministerial responsibility the provision of employment support for severely disabled for health and safety at work, I have had a meeting people. As announced in the review of Public Bodies on covering construction health and safety with members 14 October, the status of Remploy Ltd as an NDPB of the Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE) Small remains under consideration. Business Trade Association Forum on 22 September. Social Security Benefits: Stirling HSE officials meet regularly with the construction industry. These contacts include meetings of HSE’s Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Construction Industry Advisory Committee and its and Pensions how many individuals in Stirling working groups and with industry stakeholders on specific constituency receive more than £26,000 a year in issues. benefits, excluding child benefit and disability living allowance. [17382] Jobseeker’s Allowance: Graduates Chris Grayling: The information requested is not Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for available at a parliamentary constituency level. Work and Pensions whether he has made a recent The information is available for Great Britain. £26,000 estimate of the number of people in receipt of a year is equivalent to £500 a week. Latest estimates jobseeker’s allowance in (a) Scotland and (b) show that in 2010-11 there are fewer than 25,000 working Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency who graduated age households in receipt of more than £500 a week in from (i) university in 2010 and (ii) a teacher training all benefits and tax credits, excluding disability living institution in each of the last three years. [17130] allowance and child benefit. The Chancellor’s announcement of a benefit cap was Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. informed by high-level consideration of the broad impacts The information requested falls within the responsibility when developing the policy. The Government will set of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority out more details on the cap on total welfare that workless to reply. families can receive in the spending review. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: All disability living allowance claimants, war widows, As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and working families claiming the working tax credit have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking will be exempt from the cap. The cap will apply to the for an estimate of the number of people in receipt of jobseeker’s combined income from the main income replacement allowance in (a) Scotland and (b) Kilmarnock and Loudoun benefits, other means tested benefits, child benefit and constituency who graduated from (i) university in 2010 and (ii) a child tax credit and other benefits such as carer’s allowance teacher training institution in each of the last three years. (17130) and industrial injury disablement benefit. The Office for National Statistics’ (ONS) preferred source of statistics for claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) is Jobcentre Source: Plus administrative system. However, this source does not contain DWP Policy Simulation Model, based on the 2008-09 Family data on educational achievement. Resources Survey data. 647W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 648W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE will have a positive impact on fuel poverty, with approximately 175,000 households expected to be removed Coal-fired Power Stations: Scotland from fuel poverty. Many more will receive measures which will protect them from falling into fuel poverty. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for CERT is an obligation on energy suppliers to achieve Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions targets for promoting reductions in carbon emissions in his Department has had with the Scottish Executive on the household sector. the regulation of carbon dioxide emission rates from coal-fired power stations. [17112] Geo-engineering

Gregory Barker: The Department is having ongoing David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for constructive dialogue with the Scottish Executive. In Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s addition, we will be working closely with the Scottish policy is on the use of geo-engineering to combat the Ministers to ensure a complementary approach towards effects of climate change; and whether his Department new coal capacity across Great Britain, including taking has provided funding for any such activities in the past forward the commitment made in the Coalition’s 12 months. [18099] Programme for Government, to establish an emissions performance standard that would prevent coal-fired Gregory Barker: The Department’s first priority is to power stations being built without the provision of tackle human causes of climate change at source by Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) to enable them to reducing emissions of greenhouse gases and pushing comply with our Emissions Performance Standard (EPS). for strong international action to achieve this goal. Fuel Poverty However, we recognise that geo-engineering might have a role to play at some future stage and research is needed to understand the risks and benefits. Over the Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for past year, the Department has provided a total of Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he £136,228 to fund computer modelling research at the has made of the number and proportion of households Met Office Hadley Centre to investigate the impacts of (a) (b) in East Hampshire constituency and the injecting aerosols into the stratosphere. county of Hampshire which are in fuel poverty. [18191] Renewable Energy Gregory Barker: In 2006, the most recent year for which sub-regional figures are available, there were around 3,400 (8%) fuel poor households in the East Hampshire Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency and 56,700 (8%) in the county of Hampshire. Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he The county of Hampshire figures quoted include the has made of the (a) annual operating leak rate of unitary authorities of Portsmouth and Southampton, fluorocarbons from heat pumps and (b) percentage of which had around 7,700 and 9,100 fuel poor households the refrigerant likely to be vented at end-of-life respectively in 2006. disposal. [17765] The number of fuel poor households in England in Gregory Barker: We have discussed these issues with 2006 was 2.4 million. However, DECC recently published the industry and with DEFRA who are responsible for statistics which show that there were 3.3 million households F-Gas Support, a business support unit that helps in fuel poverty in 2008. organisations affected by the fluorinated gas (F gas) Fuel Poverty: Bexleyheath regulatory regime. We are satisfied that the risk of leakage of fluorocarbons during or at the end of operation of hermetically sealed heat pumps is very small. Typically Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for residual amounts, 1% or 2% of the system volume, Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to might remain after refrigerant removal. This can increase help reduce fuel poverty in Bexleyheath and Crayford to around 5% to 10% for very large, non-hermetically constituency. [17687] sealed, industrial heat pumps, where there is more scope of leakage through mechanical joints. Further information Gregory Barker: Government are committed to helping on heat pumps will be made available shortly when those households who are in fuel poverty. We recognise DEFRA publish a report on HFC consumption and the need to help more of the most vulnerable to keep emissions forecasting. their homes warm at an affordable cost, and have in place a number of policies and programmes which can Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for help them to do so. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made The Warm Front Scheme provides a range of insulation of (a) the average cost of the installation of air source and heating measures to vulnerable households and heat pumps, including the cost of domestic adaptation, provides advice on benefit entitlement. Measures provided (b) the average assessed service life of an air source include energy efficient heating systems, cavity wall heat pump and (c) the length of time it would take for insulation, loft insulation and draught proofing. Since the installation of an air source heat pump to result in its inception in June 2000, Warm Front has assisted a net saving for a householder. [17766] 2,290 households in the Constituency of Bexleyheath and Crayford up to 17 August 2010. Gregory Barker: The installation cost of an air source The Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) heat pump (ASHP) in the domestic sector depends on extension and Super Priority Group, which focuses on the size and characteristics of the property in which the vulnerable groups within the existing priority group, heat pump is installed. Our most recent analysis shows 649W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 650W that total ASHP installation costs are usually in the review of the FITs scheme as it relates to early adopters range of £7,000 to £12,000. The costs for large homes of small-scale, low-carbon electricity generating technology. could be significantly higher if the heat demand exceeds The Department estimated that allowing all1 existing the capacity of the electrical supply and system generators to claim FITs at full rate, without repaying reinforcement is required. grants would represent a discounted cost in the order of The payback period for ASHPs depends on the fuel £55.9 million to 2020 and an annual cost in 2020 of which they displace (that is, the counterfactual), usage £4.25 million2. In addition to these costs there would be and the operating efficiency of the equipment. There additional administrative costs to DECC, Ofgem and could be significant differences between installations. suppliers. In practice, these administrative costs would Assuming an operating efficiency of 250% to 275% and have increased, had such a policy also included a an installation cost of around £9,000 to £10,000, payback requirement to repay some or all of any grant. periods could range from eight to 16 years1 when replacing Extending FITs to existing installations would increase electric heating. Payback periods are longer when the the costs of the scheme, without encouraging additional counterfactual is a less expensive off-grid fuel, such as installations, which is the primary objective of the FITs heating oil and coal. In the case of natural gas, the scheme. We do not think that this represents value for cheapest heating fuel, the payback may be longer than money and cannot therefore justify the additional cost the expected life of the heat pump. The industry believe to consumers, who ultimately pay for the scheme. Therefore, the life of a heat pump is at least 20 years but this has after careful consideration, we decided that the scheme yet to be independently verified. as it relates to early adopters should remain unchanged. 1 Payback periods are calculated using illustrative data on costs 1 These figures are based on estimated numbers of sub-50kW and heat pump performance and are calculated by dividing the installations prior to 15 July 2009 that received grants from the full capital costs of the renewable equipment by the relevant fuel following programmes: Clear Skies, LCBP1, LCBP2 and the savings. Major PV Demo Programme. 2 Costs are presented in 2009 prices, discounted. Costs are net Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for FITs subsidy costs, i.e. net of the value of exports to suppliers. Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Admin costs of administering a higher number of FIT installations have not been included here. Costs assume that existing generators made of the potential contribution to global warming would be paid FITs for the full installation lifetime. Cost of the use of the refrigerants (a) R404A, (b) R407C, estimations should be caveated, as we do not know the precise (c) R410A and (d) R134a in heat pumps. [17767] number of existing generators and which technologies/scales they have invested in. Gregory Barker: Refrigerants are very powerful greenhouse gases. Compared to carbon dioxide, which has a global warming potential (GWP) of 1, the GWP CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT of the following refrigerant gases are as follows: Broadband

GWP Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for R404A 3,800 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment R407C 1,525 he has made of the contribution of the implementation R410A 1,725 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to R134A 1,300 OFCOM) Order 2010 to his Department’s objectives on broadband; and if he will make a statement. [17522] However, in my answer given to question 17765, I Mr Vaizey: I have been asked to reply in my capacity explained that we are satisfied the risk of any significant as a Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation refrigerant leakage from heat pumps is negligible. Their and Skills. contribution to global warming is therefore proportionately small. The energy and carbon benefits from a well Implementing this Order would result in Ofcom taking designed heat pump will almost entirely outweigh any action to implement the EU’s revised GSM Directive impact from small releases of F gas. Nonetheless, given and Radio Spectrum Committee decision that liberalises the global warming potential of R404A, we would the 900 and 1800 MHz spectrum to enable 3G services expect heat pump manufacturers to avoid using this to be rolled out in that spectrum. The action to convert particular gas wherever possible. existing 3G licences to an indefinite period will also provide certainty to the current mobile operators to enable them to invest further in developing their 3G Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs networks. Finally, the release of new spectrum through a combined auction of 800 MHz and 2600 MHz will Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for further assist the transition to next generation superfast Energy and Climate Change whether he has made an broadband. All of these actions will be important steps estimate of the cost to the public purse of making in our objective of developing the UK’s broadband eligible for the proposed higher rate feed-in tariff those networks. who installed microgeneration equipment under the Departmental Equality Low Carbon Buildings Programme before 15 July 2009. [17436] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans he has Gregory Barker: The potential additional costs of to publish equality impact assessments undertaken by extending Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) to sub-50 kW installations his Department as part of the comprehensive spending prior to 15 July 2009 was the key consideration in our review; and if he will make a statement. [18031] 651W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 652W

Mr Jeremy Hunt: My Department will publish a recent years we have also allocated funds to the Community statement on 21 October on how fairness and equality Media Association from within that funding to support have been considered during the comprehensive spending its work in promoting best practice within the community review. media sector and encouraging self-sustainability. We will continue to undertake and publish formal In addition, the Community Radio (Amendment) equality impact assessments for new or significantly Order 2010 relaxed the existing licensing and regulatory changing areas of policy as they emerge. regime to promote a more sustainable community radio sector. Digital Broadcasting Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he plans steps to increase the availability of community radio to require broadcasters to increase to 20% the licences. [17776] proportion of their programming which has audio description; and if he will make a statement. [16599] Mr Vaizey: The licensing of community radio stations is a matter for Ofcom, which works independently of Mr Vaizey: The Government have no plans to increase Government. While demand for new community radio the statutory 10% target for audio description at this licences is high, available analogue spectrum is scarce. time. Following careful consideration of Ofcom’s recent We understand that Ofcom has not yet made a decision review of TV Access Services in the UK and the voluntary on whether to conduct a further round of community commitments made by a number of major broadcasters radio licensing. to audio describe 20% of their programming we have concluded that further regulation is not required at this Local Broadcasting: Television time. We have asked Ofcom to continue to monitor levels of audio description provision and asked them to Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, report to Government if the average level falls below Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions he has the current levels. We will then consider whether to had with the partners of the Canvas joint venture on review the targets, or invite Ofcom to review and make access to the Canvas platform for local television recommendations. channels. [17749]

Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has held discussions State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will with a number of the Canvas (now YouView) partners commission research to assess (a) the power to discuss the potential for local television in the UK. consumption of DAB receivers, (b) the prevalence of However these discussions were not specifically regarding the use of DAB+ with the AAC codec and (c) the any access local television would have to the YouView effectiveness of digital reception in cars; and if he will platform. make a statement. [18271] Nicholas Shott is currently conducting his independent review of local TV in the UK and will present the Mr Vaizey: The Government have already commissioned Secretary of State with his final conclusions by early and published independent research into the energy December, which will be published on the DCMS website. efficiency of digital radio. This research has been published on the DCMS website, and can be found at: Museums and Galleries: Fees and Charges http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ digitalradios_energyconsumption_report.pdf Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, we are currently conducting further research Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent in this area and will publish the results early next year. discussions he has had on free entry to national museums; and if he will make a statement. [17454] We are not aware of any mainstream UK-based broadcasters currently broadcasting on DAB+. Therefore, Mr Vaizey: We have had no discussions. In line with any research into the usage of DAB+ in the UK is the coalition manifesto there are no plans to review the unlikely to provide any meaningful information. policy of free admission to national museums and The effectiveness of DAB reception in vehicles was galleries. tested as part of the Digital Radio Working Group in 2008. To build on this initial research, the Digital Radio Olympic Games 2012: Finance Action Plan, published in July this year, set out the process for a specific examination of in-vehicle receiver Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for and aerial sensitivities; it is due to report findings by the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what his most end of next year. recent estimate is of the cost to the public purse of hosting the teams competing in the London 2012 Local Broadcasting: Radio Olympic games. [17989]

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Robertson: The majority of costs that are necessary Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is to host the teams competing in the London 2012 games, taking to encourage community radio. [17775] for example, construction of an Olympic Village where teams will stay during the games, a park and venues for Mr Vaizey: The Department has made up to £500,000 them to compete in, and games-time security costs, are a year available since 2004 to support the community provided for within the £9.3 billion public sector funding radio sector, through the Community Radio Fund. In package. 653W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 654W

DCMS publishes quarterly economic reports setting Television: Finance out how the public sector funding package is being used. Other costs, for example, for running the Village Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, during games-time, fall to the London Organising Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take steps to Committee of the 2012 Olympic games and Paralympic ensure that the development of new television channels games (LOCOG), which is a private company. does not receive public subsidy. [18038] There are potentially costs falling to those local authorities and other public bodies that are hosting Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has asked Nicholas pre-games training camps. Costs outside the public Shott, Head of UK Investment Banking at Lazard, to sector funding package will lie where they fall. conduct a review of the conditions that will allow commercially sustainable local television to emerge in Regional Screen Agency the UK without direct public subsidy. Nicholas Shott will present the Secretary of State Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, with his final conclusions by early December, which will Olympics, Media and Sport what plans his Department be published on the Department’s website. has for the Regional Screen Agency. [18129] Television: Licensing Mr Vaizey: The Department is not directly involved in the restructuring of regional screen agencies which Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for are private companies. However, we would welcome the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many principle of a more simple and efficient framework. households in City of Chester constituency claim a free television licence; and how many such households S4C include a higher rate taxpayer. [17319]

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The Department does not collect data on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what (a) the number of free licences claimed. This is a matter for discussions and (b) correspondence he has had with the BBC, although I understand the BBC does not hold each representative of S4C between 6 May and 8 June such data broken down by constituency. 2010; and if he will publish that correspondence. Television: Hearing Impairment [17024]

Mr Vaizey: In May 2010, the Secretary of State for Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media, and Sport discussed a reduction Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has in funding with the chair of S4C—as part of the £6 billion had any recent discussions about the provision of efficiency savings. interpreter services for deaf or hard of hearing television viewers. [16918] Further to a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act on 15 June, correspondence and Mr Vaizey: The Government understands the importance details of discussions with the Secretary of State and of subtitling and signing services to deaf or hard of officials were partially released on 15 September 2010. hearing television viewers and I have had a number of Copies of these documents will be placed in the discussions on issues affecting television viewers, including House Libraries the provision of Access Services. Television Video Recordings Act 1984

Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take steps to Olympics, Media and Sport what representations he ensure Project Canvas does not inhibit the has received on reform of the Video Recordings development of new local television companies. [18039] Act 1984 to end the requirement of film distributors to receive a classification certificate from the British Mr Vaizey: Internet Protocol Television (IPTV) services Board of Film Classification for films in respect of such as Canvas (now YouView) are currently being which they wish to accept a voluntary 18 certificate. developed. [18131] Nicholas Shott, Head of UK Investment Banking at Lazard, is currently conducting a review on the conditions Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, that will allow commercially sustainable local television Media and Sport has received two representations, from to emerge in the UK. members of the public, on reforming the Video Recordings Act 1984 to this end. His interim findings said that local TV is over time likely to “naturally migrate” to IPTV. He called IPTV: “the best delivery means for local TV” DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER and as such, IPTV services are likely to present an opportunity for viewers to access more local material Electoral Register because of the flexibility the platform will offer. Nicholas Shott will present the Secretary of State Chi Onwurah: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister with his final conclusions by early December, in which what his policy is on the practice of local authorities in he will look further at IPTV and other issues. This will seeking the prosecution of those who have not be published on the Department’s website. registered on the Electoral Roll. [17155] 655W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 656W

Mr Harper: There is no legal duty on individuals to employed in each such directorate; what other posts in register to vote and the Government have no plans to his Department each such official has held; and if he introduce one. However, there is a legal requirement on will make a statement. [17384] individuals to supply information to registration officers if required to do so, and it is an offence not to comply Andrew Stunell: The Communities and Neighbourhoods with that requirement. Whether to pursue a failure to Directorate in the Department of Communities and supply information and to seek prosecution in a given Local Government is responsible for the formulation case is a matter for the individual registration officer, and in partnership with other Departments the the police and the relevant prosecuting authority. implementation of policy on reducing the incidence of anti-Semitism. The department’s work on anti-Semitism falls under the auspices of the team that works on hate COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT crime and all other forms of hatred and intolerance. This team is made up of three officials, one at pay band Affordable Housing: Finance 6.1, one at pay band 4.3 and one at pay band 3.2. All Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for three have held a range of previous positions across Communities and Local Government what the Government including the Home Office, the Department evidential basis is for his Department’s estimate of the of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Government contribution from the public purse to keep people in Office for London. affordable homes; what estimate he has made of the total annual cost to the public purse; which elements of Building Regulations: Public Consultation public expenditure he has included in the calculation; and how this figure was arrived at. [17190] Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will publish Andrew Stunell: There are two types of housing subsidy, the responses received to Question 86 of his ’capital subsidy’ provided through the National Affordable Department’s building regulations consultation Housing Programme (NAHP) and sub-market rents in referred to on page 178 of Proposals for amending Part the social sector, and ’personal subsidy’ through housing L and Part F of the Building Regulations Summary of benefit. Responses, dated 1 April 2010. [16773] In 2009-10 we spent £3.3 billion (in England) on the NAHP for the provision of new affordable homes and Andrew Stunell: The Department received over wider housing programmes. Research carried out by 400 responses to the Part L and F consultation and, Professor Steve Wilcox for CLG estimated that in national having published a comprehensive Summary of Responses, terms in 2007-08 the annual economic subsidy of providing has no plans to publish the individual responses to the sub-market rents in the social sector was £3.67 billion 113 questions in the consultation document. We will, for the local authority sector, and £3.38 billion for the however, provide copies of individual responses on Housing Association sector.1 request, in accordance with confidentiality, data protection In 2009-10 £12.4 billion (in Great Britain—figure and freedom of information requirements. provided by DWP) was spent on housing benefit for The majority of respondents to Question 86 felt that social sector tenants. circulator pumps should have a minimum band C rating. CLG and DWP’s budget for 2011-12 to 2014-15 is However, from 2013 there will be a mandatory EU-wide being considered as part of the spending review. requirement under the energy using products directive 1 Source: for all circulator pumps placed on the market to be Analysis of Rents for the Review of Council Housing Finance— band A. The main trade association for the UK pump Professor Steve Wilcox: market argued that it would be unreasonable to expect http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pdf/ pump manufacturers to modify designs twice in just 1290130.pdf over a two-year period. Allotments It was therefore decided that the Part L guidance from October 2010 should be that circulator pumps Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for should have an A to G energy label, as this would be an Communities and Local Government if he will make effective way of encouraging consumers to choose energy an assessment of the appropriate amount of land to be efficient products without imposing an undue burden set aside for use as allotment land for each category of on manufacturers already preparing for 2013. population density; and if he will make a statement. [18046] Departmental Equality

Andrew Stunell: It is up to local authorities to assess Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the needs of their community and ascertain what is a Communities and Local Government what plans he sufficient number of allotments for their local area. has to publish equality impact assessments undertaken Anti-Semitism by his Department as part of the comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a statement. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for [18030] Communities and Local Government which directorate of his Department has responsibility for the (a) Andrew Stunell: The Department is following guidance formulation and (b) implementation of policy on issued by the Government Equalities Office on publishing reducing the incidence of anti-Semitism; how many its equality impact assessments (EqIAs) as part of the officials at each pay band in his Department are Spending Review. 657W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 658W

The results of the EqIAs will be published in due Empty Property: East of England course once the Spending Review has been announced. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Empty Dwelling Management and Enforced Sale (a) privately-owned and (b) social sector homes in (i) Procedure Orders Peterborough and (ii) the East of England were vacant in each of the last 12 quarters for which figures are available; and how many of those homes had been Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for vacant for more than six months. [17847] Communities and Local Government how long on average it has taken from application to the granting of Andrew Stunell: The following table shows the total an (a) empty dwelling management and (b) enforced number and proportion of dwellings that were vacant sale procedures order in each local authority area since (i) for any length of time and (ii) for more than six 2006. [17619] months in Peterborough Unitary Authority (UA) area and the East of England region in each of the last three Andrew Stunell: Information on the time taken from years. Separate figures are included for local authority- application to the granting of an empty dwelling owned and Registered Social Landlord (RSL) dwellings. management order (EDMO) is not held centrally.EDMOs Comparable information on the number of private sector are authorised by the Residential Property Tribunal vacant dwellings is not held centrally. Service and the target set by the Department under the Figures for RSLs include ’general needs’ self-contained last Government for dealing with all Housing Act 2004 stock and exclude bed spaces, ’supported housing’ and cases is 75% of applications should be determined ’housing for older people’. For which vacancy estimates within 15 weeks and 90% of decisions issued within are not available below the England level. ’General four weeks after that. needs’ self-contained stock accounts for approximately Information on enforced sale procedures is not collected. 80% of the RSL sector.

All tenures Local authority1 Registered social landlord2,3 Number % Number % Number %

2007 Peterborough UA All vacants 2,179, 3.0 — — 156 1.4 Vacant for > six months 610 0.8 — — 74 0.7 East of England All vacants 69,107 2.8 2,492 1.3 Vacant for > 6 months 24,704 1.0 698 0.4 1,010 9.6 2008 Peterborough UA All vacants 2,517 3.4 — — 110 1.0 Vacant for > six months 766 1.0 — — 78 0.7 East of England All vacants 72,773 3.0 2,040 1.3 1,888 1.0 Vacant for > six months 26,255 1.1 689 0.4 1,224 0.7 2009 Peterborough UA All vacants 2,590 3.4 — — 90 0.8 Vacant for > six months 854 1.1 — — 67 0.6 East of England All vacants 72,891 2.9 2,595 1.6 2,137 1.2 Vacant for > six months 25,921 1.0 685 0.4 1,342 0.7 1 These figures relate to stock owned by a local authority regardless of whether it is located within that local authority’s boundaries. Peterborough UA has transferred its own stock to the RSL sector. 2 ’General needs’ self-contained RSL stock only 3 RSL vacancies of more than six months are based on a proxy measure - ″RSL vacancies not available for rent″ Sources: All tenures - CTB1 council tax form (completed by local authorities); local authority tenure - Business Planning Statistical Appendix (completed by local authorities); RSL tenure - Regulatory and Statistical Return (completed by RSLs)

Energy: Housing Andrew Stunell: Following the uprating of energy efficiency requirements in the building regulations on 1 October, we currently have no plans to implement additional John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for regulatory measures in the private rented sector. We are Communities and Local Government if he will bring however committed to improving the energy efficiency forward proposals for mandatory energy efficiency of existing housing, and we will continue to look at standards for homes in the private rented sector; and if ways of promoting energy efficiency in the private rented sector including through the Green Deal. he will make a statement. [18090] 659W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 660W

Enforced Sale Procedure Order Andrew Stunell: Our programme for government includes a number of commitments to encouraging sustainable Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for house building. We are seeking to increase levels of Communities and Local Government how many sustainable house building by introducing the New Homes enforced sale orders each local authority has obtained Bonus, a powerful fiscal incentive for local authorities since such orders were introduced; and which local to deliver new homes. authorities have enforced sales under such orders. We are committed also to improving the energy efficiency [17620] of new homes. My right hon. Friend, the Minister for Housing and Local Government, announced in July Andrew Stunell: Information on enforced sales is not our intention to ensure that all new homes would be collected. zero carbon from 2016. As a first step, new requirements in building regulations came into to effect on 1 October. Homes and Communities Agency: North East We are planning to publish a revised version of the Code for Sustainable Homes shortly. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for The programme for government also confirmed our Communities and Local Government if he will ensure intention to create a presumption in favour of sustainable that the (a) assets and (b) income from assets development in the planning system. We will announce currently held by the Homes and Communities Agency further details later this year. in the North East will remain in the North East and continue to be used for the purposes of housing and Mr Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for related projects. [17521] Communities and Local Government what steps he plans to take to reduce levels of regulation applying to Andrew Stunell: We are reviewing the future of new housing developments. [18102] regeneration and housing policies as part of the spending review and the forthcoming White Paper on sub-national Andrew Stunell: I initiated a review of the Building economic growth. There are currently no plans to move Regulations over the summer, to consider options for assets and income held by the Homes and Communities changes to the Building Regulations and building control Agency outside of the Agency. system, including the potential to deregulate. Having Housing: Construction sought views from a wide range of interested parties, and taking account of the responses to the “Your Mr Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Freedom” and my Department’s “Cutting Red Tape” Communities and Local Government when he plans to websites, my officials are now analysing the responses announce his Department’s plans for incentives for and I am aiming to make a statement on this around the end of the year. developers of new houses. [17532] More widely, my colleague, the Minister for Housing, Grant Shapps: We are committed to increasing housing has set out his commitment to simplifying the regulations supply and seeing more of the homes that people want, for new build housing. My Department will be initiating in the places that people want them, to meet Britain’s discussions with interested parties shortly about how to housing need. simplify the other standards (beyond Building Regulations) The coalition agreement makes a clear commitment in the light of the development of the new planning to replace centrally imposed targets with powerful fiscal regime. In the meantime we have: incentives for local authorities so that people see the Abolished national housing density targets; benefits of housing growth. Revoked Regional Strategies for local housing numbers; We have acted quickly to scrap and replace the previous Adopted a government wide “one in, one out” approach to government’s ineffective failed top-down target system. new regulatory burdens. In a letter to council leaders on 9 August I set out my The coalition agreement says we will publish and intention to introduce the cornerstone of this new system, present to Parliament a simple and consolidated national the New Homes Bonus. This will shift power back into planning framework covering all forms of development. the hands of individuals, communities and councils and We will make an announcement on how we propose to give local communities a direct and substantial share in take forward the national planning framework and the growth rather than just absorbing the costs. A copy of implications for specific areas of planning policy. This this letter was sent to all MPs and placed in the Library will include planning for housing policy. of the House. We will introduce the scheme early in the spending Housing: East of England review following a consultation on the specific scheme design. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State We are also committed to reducing the burden of for Communities and Local Government what estimate unnecessary regulation on homebuilders. This will reduce he has made of the average density of new housing in the costs of development and incentivise investment in (a) Peterborough and (b) the East of England in each new housing. of the last 10 years. [17869]

Mr Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: The density of new housing in Communities and Local Government what plans he Peterborough for 1994-97, 1998-2001, 2002-05 and 2006-09 has for sustainable house building in the period from is published in the Land Use Change Statistics Live 2010 to 2015. [17533] Table P232, while the density of new housing in the east 661W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 662W of England between 1999 and 2009 is published in the Number of households accepted as being homeless with reason for loss of last Land Use Change Statistics Live Table P231. Both of settled home ‘Household left HM forces’ these tables can be accessed at: Number http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ 2009-10 123 planningbuilding/planningstatistics/livetables/landusechange/ Source: Note that the density of new housing at local authority Quarterly P1E returns level is only published as multi-year averages as it can be The Department does not hold statistics for the devolved highly volatile at more frequent intervals. Administrations. The abolition of Whitehall density targets by the new Government means that the appropriate level of density Housing: Newcastle Upon Tyne of new housing is now a matter for local determination. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing: Empty Property Communities and Local Government what information his Department holds on the sites for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for which Newcastle City Council sought funding as part Communities and Local Government whether the New of its Single Home Improvement Panel application. Homes Bonus scheme will apply to empty homes [17984] brought back into use by local authorities. [16855] Andrew Stunell: My Department holds no information Grant Shapps: We are committed to increasing housing on any programme or funding stream called the Single supply and seeing more of the homes that people want, Home Improvement Panel. in the places that people want them, to meet Britain’s housing need. Housing: Peterborough The coalition agreement makes a clear commitment to replace centrally imposed targets with powerful incentives Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities so that people see the real benefits for Communities and Local Government whether he of growth. has made a recent estimate of the (a) number and (b) I will be considering the specific scheme design issues, monetary value of homes which could be built on including bringing empty properties back into use, shortly undeveloped sites in Peterborough which are held in after the spending review. land banks by registered social landlords. [17850]

Housing: Ex-servicemen Andrew Stunell: The Department for Communities and Local Government has not made a recent estimate Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for of the number or monetary value of homes which could Communities and Local Government how many and be built on undeveloped land in Peterborough owned what proportion of service personnel normally resident by registered social landlords. in (a) Scotland, (b) Wales, (c) Northern Ireland and (d) each region of England have been granted housing Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State by a local authority upon discharge from the armed for Communities and Local Government how many forces in each of the last five years. [17804] and what proportion of homes in Peterborough were (a) owner-occupied, (b) privately-rented and (c) Andrew Stunell: This information is not collected socially-rented in the latest period for which figures are centrally. available. [17862] Information is collected from local authorities via the Andrew Stunell: The number of dwellings in Peterborough quarterly P1E form giving the number of households unitary authority (UA) area in 2009 is shown in the accepted as owed a main homelessness duty with reason following table, split by tenure. Figures for the privately for loss of last settled home being ‘Household left HM rented and owner-occupied tenures are not held centrally. forces’. These households will be offered social housing or placed in temporary accommodation until such housing Peterborough UA Number of units Percentage of total is available or other arrangements are made. These figures do not provide a full or accurate picture of the Local authority1 —— number of armed forces service personnel granted housing Registered social 14,244 19 2 by local authorities because households can enter social landlord housing via other routes, and not all households accepted Other public sector 542 1 as homeless will enter social housing. Also, local authorities Private sector 60,427 80 record only the main reason for loss of last settled home Total 75,213 100 1 Peterborough UA has transferred its own stock into the registered social and so may underestimate the number of acceptances landlord (RSL) sector. following discharge from the armed forces. 2 Includes ‘general needs’ stock, ‘supported housing’ and ‘housing for older people’, both self-contained and bed spaces. Number of households accepted as being homeless with reason for loss of last Sources: settled home ‘Household left HM forces’ 1. Local authority and other public sector reported as at 1 April 2009 by local Number authorities through the Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix; includes non- permanent dwellings. 2005-06 268 2. Registered social landlord figures as at 31 March 2009 collected in the 2006-07 204 Regulatory and Statistical Return. 3. Total stock estimates from 2001: census dwelling count as a baseline and 2007-08 218 subsequent changes to the dwelling stock from the Housing Flows 2008-09 163 Reconciliation form. Private stock is calculated by the residual. 663W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 664W

Housing: Repossession Orders Local Government: Procurement

Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his policy is Communities and Local Government what steps he is on forcing sale on unsecured debts of less than £25,000; taking to make the tendering process of local and what assessment he has made of the likely effect government building contracts more accessible to small this would have on bringing (a) empty and (b) and medium-sized businesses. [17182] visually-blighted residential properties back into use. [15655] Robert Neill: It is for local authorities themselves to determine the best way to commission and procure Andrew Stunell: The Ministry of Justice has responsibility building contracts. However, best practice guidance is for the legislation which would be affected by this available from a number of sources. For example, OGC coalition agreement proposal. and BIS recently published guidance to procurement Officials in Communities and Local Government are staff and organisations on flagging tendering opportunities working closely with the Ministry of Justice to ensure suitable for SMEs or consortiums of SMEs in ‘Small the right balance is achieved between protecting supplier big opportunity—Flagging your contracts to homeowners from losing their home as a result of SMEs’: modest unsecured debts, and maintaining the powers http://www.ogc.gov.uk/documents/Contract_Flagging.pdf local authorities need to tackle dangerous or visually As part of the Government’s commitment to increasing blighted properties, including empty homes. transparency and openness, all councils have been called Infrastructure: Planning Permission up to publish invitations to tender and final contracts on projects over £500 by the start of 2011. Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for The Local Government Association (LGA), through Communities and Local Government what process his its ‘Place Based Productivity’ programme, is looking at Department plans to follow for applications for major a range of productivity topics, including procurement. infrastructure projects which have entered the planning This sector-led programme will look identify best practice process but which will not have been determined on the and identify new and innovative ways to support local date of abolition of the Infrastructure Planning government and its partners in finding greater efficiencies. For further details: Commission. [17536] http://local.gov.uk/lgv2/core/page.do?pageId=579930 Robert Neill: We intend to make provision in the Localism Bill which will allow for applications which Local Government: Publicity have been accepted by the Infrastructure Planning Commission, but not yet decided, to transfer seamlessly Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Secretary of State. Such applications will be Communities and Local Government what timetable taken forward by the new Major Infrastructure Planning has been set for the revision of the Code of Unit, which will be established within the Planning Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity. Inspectorate, without interruption to the process. [17473] Local Enterprise Partnerships: Norfolk Robert Neill: The code of publicity is referred to in Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the structural reform plan. On 29 September we launched Communities and Local Government what guidance a consultation on proposals for a revised code of his Department issues to those wishing to prepare a bid recommended practice, inviting responses by 10 November. to establish a local enterprise partnership; and what Subject to that consultation, we intend by the end of representations he has received from organisations in November to lay before Parliament a revised code which Norfolk on the processes for establishing such will come into force once it is approved by both Houses of Parliament. partnerships. [17896]

Robert Neill: The Secretary of State for Communities Mobile Homes: Regulation and Local Government and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills jointly wrote to local Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of authorities and business leaders on 29 June inviting State for Communities and Local Government what them to submit their initial proposals for local enterprise recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of partnerships. The letter encouraged local areas to come the operation of the Residential Regulatory Tribunal forward with their own ideas for the formation of local Service in administering regulations on the sale and enterprise partnerships but set out some expectations purchase of mobile homes; and if he will make a around the role, governance and size of such partnerships. statement. [18121] We have received a proposal for a local enterprise partnership entitled Norfolk Unlimited covering the Andrew Stunell: Residential property tribunals do not area of Norfolk county council. We have also received a at present determine applications in relation to the sale proposal for an East Anglia local enterprise partnership and purchase of mobile homes. It is proposed that the covering Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Norfolk and parts of jurisdiction of the county courts in doing so will transfer Essex. We are currently considering these proposals and to the tribunals in the spring of next year. An assessment any representations relating to them and hope to provide of the effectiveness of that operation will be carried out formal feedback soon. in due course. 665W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 666W

Planning Permission INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Death: Children Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for withdraw planning circular 01/2006. [17810] International Development what methods his Department uses to assess the effectiveness of its Andrew Stunell: The Government intend to revoke programmes in reducing the under-5 mortality rate. Planning Circular 01/06 (ODPM) “Planning for Gypsy [18109] and Traveller Sites” subject to the necessary impact assessments and following a public consultation. The Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Circular will be replaced with a short policy statement Development (DFID) assesses the effectiveness of its and light-touch guidance. work to reduce the under-5 mortality rate using information embedded in DFID’s corporate performance systems at the level of our projects and programmes. These draw Planning: Travellers on national data and statistics and evidence collected by DFID’s partners, including the GAVI Alliance and the Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Global Fund to fight AIDS, TB and Malaria. We also State for Communities and Local Government when he draw on data from the United Nations Statistics Division’s expects to revoke the current planning circulars relating MDG database, to assess progress against Millennium to Travellers; and if he will make a statement. [18272] Development Goal (MDG) 4, to reduce the child mortality rate at the national and global levels. Andrew Stunell: The Government intend to revoke DFID is currently reviewing its bilateral and multilateral Planning Circular 01/06 (ODPM) ‘Planning for Gypsy aid to ensure our programmes are effective, represent and Traveller Sites’ and ‘Planning Circular 04/07 Planning value for money for the UK taxpayer and accelerate for Travelling Showpeople’ subject to the necessary progress towards the MDGs. Future funding allocation impact assessments and following a public consultation. will be based on the findings of these reviews and the The circulars will be replaced with a short policy statement outcome of the Comprehensive Spending Review. and light-touch guidance. The coalition Government places a strong focus on I also refer my hon. Friend to my Department’s press results in all our aid programmes. We will be embedding release of 29 August 2010, a copy of which has been evaluation in every programme and creating an independent deposited in the Library of the House. aid watchdog, the Independent Commission for Aid Impact, to overseas the effectiveness of UK aid.

Registered Social Landlords: East of England Pakistan: Floods Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State International Development to which organisations his for Communities and Local Government what recent Department has granted aid funding to assist recovery estimate has been made of the number of registered following the recent floods in Pakistan. [17996] social landlords who own undeveloped land in (a) Peterborough and (b) the East of England. [17851] Mr Andrew Mitchell: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer to a written parliamentary question on 11 October Andrew Stunell: There has been no recent estimate of 2010, Official Report column 125W, which sets out the number of registered social landlords who own details of our support and funding. undeveloped land in either Peterborough or the East of Further details of organisations funded by the England. Department for International Development (DFID) in response to the Pakistan floods are available on the Floods Monitor on DFID’s website at: Thurrock Borough Council: Accountancy http://www.dfid.gov.uk/pakistanfloodsmonitor2010

Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Zimbabwe: Civil Servants Communities and Local Government what steps his Department is taking to raise standards of financial Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for management at Thurrock Borough Council; and if he International Development what recent representations will make a statement. [17529] he has received on the payment of pensions to officials of the Government who worked in Zimbabwe prior to Robert Neill: Responsibility for raising financial standards independence. [17718] at Thurrock rests with the local authority and its electorate, who will be assisted by the steps that the Government Mr Duncan: There have been no representations to are taking to increase the transparency of local authorities’ the Secretary of State for International Development financial transactions. The changes we are making to on behalf of former employees of the Government of the Audit Commission will safeguard the independence Southern Rhodesia. of local audit and further enhance democratic accountability There have been representations to the Foreign and by giving residents a role in the appointment of the Commonwealth Office by the Overseas Service Pensioners auditor. Association (OSPA). 667W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 668W

EDUCATION of Directors of Children’s Services (ADCS) Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) ‘working together to better Bercow Review support young carers’ which encourages services such as schools, substance misuse and mental health services Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for and the voluntary sector to identify and respond to Education what plans he has to arrange and support an young carers support needs as well as those of their independent 18 month review of progress on parent/family. The MoU is unequivocal in saying that implementing the recommendations of the Bercow any package of support for those requiring care should Review of services for children and young people with not rely on a young person taking on inappropriate of speech, language and communication needs; and if he excessive levels of care. I have urged all local authorities will make a statement. [15165] to sign up to the MoU. The Princess Royal Trust for Carers, supported by Sarah Teather: The Department for Education, with Government, is currently managing a £1 million Innovation the Communication Council, is monitoring progress on Fund on behalf of the National YoungCarers Coalition. implementing the recommendations from the Bercow This has led to 20 voluntary sector young carer projects Review. Progress is being made and we will be taking being funded until March 2011 to extend the support this into account, alongside recent reviews on special they provide to young carers to include the whole educational needs and disabilities, including the Rose family. The trust is looking at ways to showcase the Review, the Lamb Inquiry, the Salt Review, and the learning to other voluntary sector young carer projects. Ofsted report published on 14 September as we develop a Green Paper on special educational needs and disabilities Young carers have also said that they want their for the autumn. schools and teaching staff to be more responsive to their needs. In response to this the Princess Royal Trust I am keen that, in taking forward work on the Green for Carers and the Children’s Society has produced a Paper, we seek a wide range of views. That is why I was schools pack to help schools develop their systems and pleased to hold a roundtable discussion with members policies and increasing numbers of schools have included of the Communications Trust and others with an interest young carers as a key theme within their own ‘Healthy in children with speech, language and communication Schools’ programmes. needs (SLCN). I am also pleased to confirm that a Call for Views for the Green Paper was launched on Later in the year the Department plans to publish a 10 September 2010. report on local projects that have helped to ensure that young people do not have to take on harmful caring Children: Carers roles. The Children’s Society, supported by DFE, recently Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for completed a series of five training events for practitioners Education what steps his Department is taking to (a) in adult mental health and substance misuse services to reduce the number of children and young people acting help them better identify, assess, support or refer young as carers and (b) assist children and young people who carers to the appropriate help. (i) have been and (ii) are acting as carers. [12387]

Tim Loughton: Helping to care for a family member Children’s Play: Essex is something that many young people are happy and proud to do. These young people do play an absolutely vital role both for their families and society as a whole Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for and they deserve our recognition and support. The Education if he will provide funds under the Playmaker Department for Education with the Department of Scheme for projects at (a) Castle Park and (b) High Health is absolutely committed to supporting local Woods Country Park in Colchester. [14819] services including many voluntary organisations which have been set up to support these young people. Sarah Teather: Government are currently having to However in some cases these young people need make difficult choices in order to tackle the budget protection from excessive or inappropriate caring that deficit. The coalition inherited unrealistic spending puts their education and/or health at risk. I attended the commitments for 2010-11, where funding was reliant on Young Carers Festival this summer as I have done for a under-spends or additional funding being taken from number of years and have heard directly about their reserves. concerns. They told me that services supporting their parents or other family members all too often do not Play, while important for children and families, has to consider their views or identify and respond to their make its contribution. We are currently looking at how support needs, even though these might be critical to we can make savings to the play capital budget in the the care they are providing. most equitable way possible, while taking account of On 28 July the Government initiated a call for evidence contractual commitments that may be in place locally with a view to refreshing the Carers Strategy—the and allowing projects to progress where affordable. consultation closed on 20 September. The responses are Once local authorities are notified of revised playbuilder currently being considered and will help establish the allocations it will continue to be for them to make their key priorities that will be the focus of a refreshed Carers own decisions about where playbuilder investment should Strategy to be published later this year. be made locally, based on identified need and following The strategy will build on the Association of Directors consultation with children and young people, families of Adult Social Services (ADASS) and the Association and wider communities. 669W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 670W

Departmental Drinking Water £

Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Young People and Families (CYPF) grant 1,210,000 Education how much his Department spent on bottled Parenting Fund 7,500,000 water in 2008. [17544] Early Home Learning Environment project 132,507 Total 8,842,507 Tim Loughton: The Department does not record information to such a level of detail to enable it to The strategic grant from the Children, Young People identify expenditure on bottled water. and Families grant programme enables FPI to make a Departmental Manpower difference for parents and families by influencing local and national decision makers to improve outcomes for Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for families through research; sharing knowledge; and Education how many people are employed at his supporting innovation by designing, testing and presenting Department’s site in Darlington. [11180] the outcomes accessibly. FPI has a £7.5 million contract to manage the Parenting Tim Loughton: As of 31 August 2010, there were 411 Fund. Through this £6 million is distributed to 90 local (381.7 full-time equivalent) employees at the Department’s voluntary and charitable organisations in 23 disadvantaged Darlington site. areas to provide parenting and family support services. Departmental Training The remainder covers the cost of managing the Fund and helping the sustainability of these local projects Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for after Government funding ends in March 2011. Education how much his (a) Department and its The Early Home Learning Environment research predecessors and (b) its non-departmental public project is examining the influence that early years providers bodies spent on training for its employees in each year can have on the quality of children’s home environment. since 1997. [7650] This project ends in March 2011. Tim Loughton: The Department for Education was Health Education: Sex established on 12 May 2010. The Department estimates the total spend on learning and development (since it Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for was established) and for its predecessors, the Department Education what steps he is taking to improve sex for Children, Schools and Families and the Department education in England to reduce the number of (a) for Education and Skills, over the last three financial unwanted pregnancies and (b) cases of sexually years to be as follows: transmitted infections among teenagers. [15654]

Financial year £ million Sarah Teather: We believe that it is vital that all 2007-08 2.68 children receive high-quality sex and relationships education 2008-09 2.84 (SRE), to ensure that they have the knowledge and 2009-10 1.58 skills they need to make the right decisions about relationships and sexual health later in life. We are The Department does not hold the information centrally currently considering how best to facilitate that, within for spending on training in the years previous to this, the context of a slimmed down National Curriculum. and could obtain it only at disproportionate cost. We will be announcing our proposals for the curriculum Information on the Department’s non-departmental as a whole later in the autumn. public bodies training costs is not available as they History: A-level manage their own budgets in this regard. Because the Department does not hold this information centrally, it could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) how many and what proportion of Family and Parenting Institute: Finance pupils were entered for history A-level in each local authority in the most recent year for which figures are Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State available; [15944] for Education what level of funding is allocated to the Family and Parenting Institute in the current financial (2) how many and what proportion of pupils entered year; and if he will make a statement. [15401] for history A-level obtained a grade C or above in each local authority in the most recent year for which figures Sarah Teather [holding answer 15 September 2010]: are available. [15945] The funding allocated by the Department for Education to the Family and Parenting Institute for 2010-11 is as Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the follows: following table:

History A level entries and achievements by local authority, 2009 Percentage of pupils Number of pupils who Percentage of pupils who Number of pupils who entered for History A were entered for History were entered for History achieved a grade C or level who achieved a Local authority A level in 2009 A level in 2009 above in History A level grade C or above

North East 1,502 15.6 1,099 73.2 Darlington 122 13.3 86 70.5 Durham 235 15.4 189 80.4 671W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 672W

History A level entries and achievements by local authority, 2009 Percentage of pupils Number of pupils who Percentage of pupils who Number of pupils who entered for History A were entered for History were entered for History achieved a grade C or level who achieved a Local authority A level in 2009 A level in 2009 above in History A level grade C or above

Gateshead 122 18.1 94 77.0 Hartlepool 66 14.9 50 75.8 Middlesbrough 50 10.1 31 62.0 Newcastle upon Tyne 171 12.2 123 71.9 North Tyneside 123 15.4 104 84.6 Northumberland 217 15.1 163 75.1 Redcar and Cleveland 75 11.9 50 66.7 South Tyneside 71 17.1 43 60.6 Stockton-on-Tees 114 13.8 74 64.9 Sunderland 136 18.4 92 67.6

North West 4,118 13.7 3,191 77.5 Blackburn with Darwen 85 11.0 63 74.1 Blackpool 91 11.5 71 78.0 Bolton 98 9.6 69 70.4 Bury 132 9.5 104 78.8 Cheshire East 276 16.2 208 75.4 Cheshire West and Chester 239 9.8 188 78.7 Cumbria 403 17.8 305 75.7 Halton 37 11.3 21 56.8 Knowsley 8 4.3 5 62.5 Lancashire 587 13.5 492 83.8 Liverpool 341 17.1 246 72.1 Manchester 182 9.3 146 80.2 Oldham 116 8.9 98 84.5 Rochdale 37 13.6 22 59.5 Salford 92 12.4 73 79.3 Sefton 219 13.1 175 79.9 St. Helens 67 6.6 47 70.1 Stockport 133 8.3 109 82.0 Tameside 74 9.4 55 74.3 Trafford 251 22.8 204 81.3 Warrington 147 14.7 108 73.5 Wigan 225 13.4 187 83.1 Wirral 278 14.4 195 70.1

Yorkshire and the Humber 3,091 15.0 2,251 72.8 Barnsley 74 17.4 48 64.9 Bradford 242 13.3 170 70.2 Calderdale 140 15.6 104 74.3 Doncaster 102 9.8 68 66.7 East Riding of Yorkshire 287 22.5 202 70.4 Kingston Upon Hull, City of 90 10.2 69 76.7 Kirklees 290 14.4 229 79.0 Leeds 460 15.5 338 73.5 North East Lincolnshire 98 12.4 45 45.9 North Lincolnshire 117 12.4 81 69.2 North Yorkshire 473 14.7 375 79.3 Rotherham 143 11.0 97 67.8 Sheffield 267 13.8 198 74.2 Wakefield 159 11.7 112 70.4 York 149 15.5 115 77.2

East Midlands 2,910 15.9 2,111 72.5 Derby 136 15.3 96 70.6 Derbyshire 499 18.4 373 74.7 Leicester 90 5.6 70 77.8 Leicestershire 309 8.9 226 73.1 Lincolnshire 683 21.3 526 77.0 Northamptonshire 506 16.5 349 69.0 673W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 674W

History A level entries and achievements by local authority, 2009 Percentage of pupils Number of pupils who Percentage of pupils who Number of pupils who entered for History A were entered for History were entered for History achieved a grade C or level who achieved a Local authority A level in 2009 A level in 2009 above in History A level grade C or above

Nottingham 197 12.2 152 77.2 Nottinghamshire 490 16.4 319 65.1

West Midlands 3,755 16.3 2,725 72.6 Birmingham 671 14.3 499 74.4 Coventry 182 14.3 117 64.3 Dudley 235 13.6 186 79.1 Herefordshire 164 16.1 141 86.0 Sandwell 74 14.1 36 48.6 Shropshire 207 14.4 171 82.6 Solihull 228 16.5 171 75.0 Staffordshire 573 16.3 382 66.7 Stoke-on-Trent 121 15.4 89 73.6 Telford and Wrekin 133 16.9 122 91.7 Walsall 218 19.2 142 65.1 Warwickshire 474 17.4 362 76.4 Wolverhampton 101 10.8 54 53.5 Worcestershire 374 15.0 253 67.6

East of England 4,665 18.6 3,602 77.2 Bedford 152 17.5 117 77.0 Bedfordshire, Central 190 16.3 133 70.0 Cambridgeshire 596 21.5 499 83.7 Essex 1,047 16.6 803 76.7 Hertfordshire 1,165 17.7 918 78.8 Luton 84 10.4 52 61.9 Norfolk 523 16.6 384 73.4 Peterborough 136 15.6 100 73.5 Southend-on-Sea 187 19.3 160 85.6 Suffolk 518 19.0 396 76.4 Thurrock 67 12.0 40 59.7

London 5,197 16.3 4,082 78.5 Inner London 1,314 16.0 1,031 78.5 Camden 233 22.6 193 82.8 Hackney 34 9.3 23 67.6 Hammersmith and Fulham 120 15.8 100 83.3 Haringey 104 16.6 80 76.9 Islington 62 10.3 37 59.7 Kensington and Chelsea 74 11.7 56 75.7 Lambeth 46 14.2 38 82.6 Lewisham 158 14.4 122 77.2 Newham 48 6.5 37 77.1 Southwark 52 15.9 34 65.4 Tower Hamlets 55 7.3 36 65.5 Wandsworth 176 14.9 153 86.9 Westminster 152 14.5 122 80.3

Outer London 3,883 16.5 3,051 78.6 Barking and Dagenham 111 17.2 76 68.5 Barnet 424 15.7 368 86.8 Bexley 214 17.1 169 79.0 Brent 174 14.5 134 77.0 Bromley 378 17.0 283 74.9 Croydon 172 14.0 117 68.0 Ealing 127 14.0 116 91.3 Enfield 264 17.6 208 78.8 Greenwich 79 11.7 58 73.4 Harrow 190 14.6 156 82.1 Havering 238 16.3 205 86.1 Hillingdon 173 12.7 119 68.8 Hounslow 220 17.1 173 78.6 675W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 676W

History A level entries and achievements by local authority, 2009 Percentage of pupils Number of pupils who Percentage of pupils who Number of pupils who entered for History A were entered for History were entered for History achieved a grade C or level who achieved a Local authority A level in 2009 A level in 2009 above in History A level grade C or above

Kingston upon Thames 196 15.6 145 74.0 Merton 44 11.8 31 70.5 Redbridge 297 13.7 240 80.8 Richmond upon Thames 179 15.7 136 76.0 Sutton 252 15.8 223 88.5 Waltham Forest 151 11.1 94 62.3

South East 6,644 16.9 5,227 78.7 Bracknell Forest 66 18.1 47 71.2 Brighton and Hove 282 18.0 235 83.3 Buckinghamshire 559 17.3 495 88.6 East Sussex 303 15.6 226 74.6 Hampshire 1,199 14.2 943 78.6 Isle of Wight 114 22.4 80 70.2 Kent 1,202 17.5 932 77.5 Medway 223 16.8 142 63.7 Milton Keynes 148 14.8 111 75.0 Oxfordshire 512 16.3 417 81.4 Portsmouth 18 7.1 12 66.7 Reading 108 18.6 87 80.6 Slough 76 9.8 69 90.8 Southampton 79 11.2 61 77.2 Surrey 901 14.9 702 77.9 West Berkshire 170 17.5 154 90.6 West Sussex 455 12.8 334 73.4 Windsor and Maidenhead 105 15.5 82 78.1 Wokingham 124 15.4 98 79.0

South West 3,538 16.8 2,707 76.5 Bath and North East Somerset 173 21.1 146 84.4 Bournemouth 79 16.1 72 91.1 Bristol, City of 166 10.4 124 74.7 Cornwall 269 12.9 183 68.0 Devon 393 13.5 293 74.6 Dorset 304 15.9 236 77.6 Gloucestershire 579 17.1 479 82.7 North Somerset 141 16.4 106 75.2 Plymouth 216 20.7 165 76.4 Poole 131 14.9 99 75.6 Somerset 366 15.7 266 72.7 South Gloucestershire 161 15.0 98 60.9 Swindon 100 11.2 63 63.0 Torbay 114 15.9 96 84.2 Wiltshire 346 18.7 281 81.2

England 35,420 15.0 26,995 76.2 Note: The figures provided cover pupils aged 16-18 in maintained schools and FE Colleges. Source: Achievement and Attainment Tables.

Schools: Counselling will want to consider the right way to engage with schools so as to get the best possible services to children and families. Schools are also able to use their own Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for budgets to provide services to meet the needs of pupils, Education if he will encourage secondary schools to including services to support pupils’ emotional well-being appoint counsellors for pupils recommended by the and mental health. British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy. [12533] The national Targeted Mental Health in Schools (TaMHS) programme was developed to test the effectiveness Sarah Teather: When health and local authority of evidence-based mental health support in schools for commissioners are planning services to meet the mental those children, young people and their families who health needs of children and young people locally they need it. Schools delivering TaMHS commission a range 677W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 678W of services procured from voluntary and charitable (as Members: Correspondence well as statutory) organisations to meet the particular needs of their pupils, including counselling support for Mr Spellar: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer children struggling to cope following family breakdown when he expects to reply to the letter of 1 September or bereavement. The learning from TaMHS on effective from the right hon. Member for Warley regarding commissioning of emotional well-being and mental Sandwell Homes. [17518] health support and joint working with CAMHS is being shared across schools this year. Danny Alexander: I have replied to the right hon. While programmes such as TaMHS have been testing member. what works in developing school-based mental health PAYE support, any decision about whether to commission these services remains at the school’s discretion. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many incorrect PAYE codes have been issued by HM Revenue and Customs to taxpayers in TREASURY the last 12 months; and what estimate he has made of the amount of tax (a) overcharged and (b) Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland undercharged as a result of tax code errors in the last 12 months. [13336] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much revenue was collected in Mr Gauke: The exact percentage of incorrect coding corporation tax from companies trading in Northern notices issued is not known. In any year a small percentage Ireland in the latest year for which figures are available. of codes are always incorrect as they do not reflect [18040] changes in an individual’s circumstances. That is why HMRC send out coding notices well in advance of the Mr Gauke: An indicative estimate of the amount of start of the new tax year so that customers can review corporation tax collected from companies trading in them and report any changes to HMRC. Northern Ireland will be published by HM Treasury as The overwhelming majority of PAYE cases (more part of a forthcoming consultation document on than 40 million) are correct, so most people have paid rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. the right amount of tax. HMRC estimates that 4.3 million taxpayers will receive repayments for the years 2008-09 Crown Currency Exchange and 2009-10, while an estimated 1.4 million will be sent calculations advising that they have underpaid. HMRC Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the estimates the total underpayments for tax years 2008-09 Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the and 2009-10 at £2 billion while the overpayments are Financial Services Authority on the regulation of worth about £1.8 billion. Crown Currency Exchange; whether compensation will be available to people affected by the entry into Lorely Burt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer administration of Crown Currency Exchange; and if (1) how many HM Revenue and Customs’ Pay As You he will make a statement. [18259] Earn customer reviews from tax years (a) 2005-06, (b) 2004-05, (c) 2003-04, (d) 2002-03 and (e) 2001-02 are Mr Hoban: The Financial Services Authority (FSA) outstanding; [15372] does not regulate retail foreign currency exchange services (2) with reference to the answer of 25 June 2007, such as Crown Currency Exchange. Official Report, column 388W, on Pay As You Earn, Payments made to Crown Currency Exchange were how many of HM Revenue and Customs’ outstanding not therefore protected by the Financial Services Pay As You Earn customer reviews (open cases) at the Compensation Scheme. end of March 2007 related to the tax year (a) 2006-07, The Government will look at this case to see what (b) 2005-06, (c) 2004-05, (d) 2003-04 and (e) lessons can be learned for the future. 2002-03; [15373] (3) with reference to paragraph 6.21 of HM Revenue Departmental Manpower and Customs (HMRC) 2008-09 Accounts, how many of HMRCs’ outstanding Pay As You Earn customer Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer reviews (open cases) at the end of March 2008 related what plans he has for the future number of staff of his to the tax year (a) 2007-08, (b) 2006-07, (c) 2005-06, Department engaged in reducing tax avoidance and (d) 2004-05 and (e) 2003-04; [15374] evasion; and if he will make a statement. [16633] (4) with reference to paragraph 6.28 of HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) 2008-09 Accounts, how many Mr Gauke: HMRC’s future staffing levels will be of HMRCs’ outstanding Pay As You Earn customer dependent on the implementation of the Department’s reviews (open cases) at the end of March 2009 related Spending Review settlement, which will be announced to the tax year (a) 2008-09, (b) 2007-08, (c) 2006-07, on 20 October. (d) 2005-06 and (e) 2004-05. [15375] The Chief Secretary’s announcement that the Government will invest £900 million in HM Revenue Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the and Customs to tackle avoidance, evasion and fraud Exchequer (1) how many outstanding PAYE cases demonstrates the Government’s commitment to deliver there are in respect of each tax year since 2000-01; and a Spending Review focused on both fairness and deficit how much remains (a) underpaid and (b) overpaid in reduction. respect of such cases in each such year; [15811] 679W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 680W

(2) whether HM Revenue and Customs is (a) If they are not able to reach agreement and think proceeding against and (b) intending to proceed HMRC’s calculations are wrong, customers have a right against taxpayers for underpayments of PAYE for each to appeal against any subsequent assessment or other tax year from 2000-01 to 2007-08; [15812] legal action taken by HMRC. They also have a statutory (3) how many PAYE taxpayers have (a) underpaid right to ask for an internal review of that decision. and (b) overpaid tax in each tax year since 2000-01. Internal review offers customers the opportunity to [15814] have disputed tax decisions considered by a person who was not involved in the original decision, with a view to Mr Gauke: PAYE ‘open cases’ arose under the previous resolving the case without the need to go to a tribunal. PAYE computer system when HM Revenue and Customs Customers who have a review retain their right to take (HMRC) was unable to match the pay and tax details their appeal to an independent tribunal if they wish. submitted by their employer on form P14 to an individual’s The notes accompanying the P800 also explain what tax record or a match was made but the pay and tax did people should do in cases where they do not challenge not reconcile and further work was needed to establish the figures or the legal basis of HMRC’s calculation, the correct tax position. The term ‘open case’ refers to but think that HMRC should not collect the tax from tax years 2007-08 and earlier. them. If customers think they should not pay they This was and still is a normal part of the PAYE should make a claim to HMRC in the first instance. If process although the process has been largely automated they remain unsatisfied they have the option of making since the introduction of the National Insurance and a complaint about the service they have received from PAYE Service (NPS) in 2009. HMRC. If they are not satisfied with HMRC’s response to the complaint they can take their case to the independent The following table details the approximate number Adjudicator’s Office or the Parliamentary Ombudsman. of PAYE ‘open cases’ broken down by tax year as at the end of March 2007, March 2008, March 2009 along Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the number currently outstanding. whether an assessment has been made of the likely Open cases effects of the miscalculation of tax liabilities under the Million PAYE system on recipients of means-tested in-work Tax As at March As at March As at March social security benefits. [15583] year 2007 2008 2009 As at 2010

2007-08 — 1— 9.52 7.92 Mr Gauke: It is a normal part of the PAYE cycle that 2006-07 1— 8.93 6.01 5.37 changes in circumstances that cannot be reflected in 2005-06 8.45 4.29 3.17 2.42 in-year tax deductions need to be reconciled annually. 2004-05 3.90 2.70 2.15 1.66 This is not a miscalculation but is a feature of the way 2003-04 0.81 0.52 — — the current PAYE system is designed. PAYE works well 2002-03 0.21———for the majority of people but because the processes 1 The number of ‘open cases’ can only be determined after the end of the tax remain fundamentally unchanged since they were year introduced in 1944 there are limitations. The coalition Earlier analysis suggested that around half the cases Government are looking at how to reform PAYE further currently open were likely to lead to either an under or and make it more efficient. overpayment of tax and that in aggregate these might For information on the impact on recipients of social lead to repayments and recoveries of the order of £3.0 security benefits if income after tax is changed, I refer billion and £1.4 billion respectively. However the amount the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister of of tax under or overpaid cannot be established until State for Pensions on 11 October 2010, Official Report, each ‘open case’ has been worked. columns 244-245W to the right hon. Member for East HMRC is setting in place a programme to complete Ham (Stephen Timms). the clearance of open cases, with a view for their clearance by the end of 2012. Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many PAYE taxpayers owed less than Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the £300 and had their debts written off by HM Revenue Exchequer what procedures are in place for individuals and Customs in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; and to appeal against assessments made by HM Revenue what the total sum so owed was in each such year. and Customs on liability for the underpayment of [15813] PAYE tax as a result of recent miscalculations of liability. [15459] Mr Gauke: HMRC estimates the cost of increasing the PAYE tolerance to £300 for 2008-09 and 2009-10 Mr Gauke: Pay As You Earn (PAYE) calculations tax years is £160 million, affecting 900,000 taxpayers. (P800s) issued to individuals are based on information HMRC is unable to provide a breakdown of the total held by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). P800s set sum owed for each year. out HMRC’s information about income received and tax paid for the relevant period, together with a calculation Taxation of any further tax or repayment due. They are not assessments and do not create a legal debt: they tell Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the customers what HMRC thinks is the correct tax position. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the amounts Individuals who think the calculation is incorrect in any foregone by the Exchequer in tax reliefs or allowances way should contact HMRC in the first instance. The in the latest period for which figures are available; in notes which accompany the P800 explain how to get in respect of which tax reliefs or allowances the largest touch with HMRC. sums were foregone; what the sums were in each case; 681W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 682W and how much of the sums forgone was attributable to The information requested falls within the responsibility reliefs or allowances granted to (a) ordinary rate of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. taxpayers, (b) higher rate taxpayers and (c) the top (i) I have asked IPSA to reply. 10 per cent., (ii) five per cent., (iii) one per cent. and (iv) Letter from Andrew McDonald to Bob Russell: [18029] 0.1 per cent. of tax payers. As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Mr Gauke: Estimates for principal tax expenditure Question asking how many errors have been recorded since IPSA and structural reliefs are contained in Table 1.5 “Estimated began operations. (15724) costs of the principal tax expenditure and structural MPs whose claims for reimbursement are not paid by IPSA are reliefs”, which can be found on the HM Revenue and able to request a review on the grounds that the rules have been Customs website at: applied incorrectly, or that IPSA has made an administrative http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_expenditures/table1-5.pdf error. Since 7 May 2010, IPSA has concluded that the decision Estimates of the relief value of Personal Allowance not to pay was incorrectly determined in 19 instances. and Age-related Personal Allowances for 2009-10 is Members: Allowances shown in the following table.

£ million Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for Age-related personal Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Personal allowance allowance the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Taxpayer group how much was owed to hon. and right hon. Members in unpaid expense claims by the Independent (a) Basic Rate 35,900 2,180 Parliamentary Standards Authority (a) on the most (b) Higher Rate 7,950 0 recent date for which figures are available and (b) in each month since 6 May 2010. [14631] Total income group (i) Top 10% 7,790 0 Mr Charles Walker: For clarity, future answers will (ii) Top 5% 3,900 0 indicate where an issue is the responsibility of the (iii) Top 1% 779 0 Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and (iv) Top 0.1% 78 0 not of the Speaker’s Committee. Estimates are based upon the 2007-08 Survey of The information requested falls with the responsibility Personal Incomes and are uprated to 2009-10 using of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. June 2010 Budget economic assumptions. I have asked IPSA to reply. Detailed breakdowns by taxpayer status or income Letter from Andrew McDonald: for other principal tax expenditure and structural reliefs As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary are not available. Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how much was owed in unpaid expense claims. VAT (14631) In this context, the question ’how much was owed...’ can be Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the interpreted as both expense claims submitted but not yet paid by Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the the end of the month and expense claims approved for payment effect on church repairs of the recovery of VAT on but not yet paid by the end of the month. Figures for both maintenance costs; and if he will make a statement. interpretations are provided in the following tables. [17655] Table 1: Value of expense claims submitted but not yet paid by the end of each month. Mr Gauke: VAT is chargeable on all works of repair Claims submitted Value (£) or maintenance to churches, as with other buildings. Under normal VAT rules, such tax is not recoverable End June 128,219.02 unless it is a business expense. No assessment has therefore End July 60,332.85 been made of the effect of VAT recovery on church End August 235,325.87 repairs. End September 201,965.68 Table 2: Value of expense claims approved but not yet paid by the end of each month. Claims approved Value (£) INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE End June 38,622.06 End July 45,107.11 Claims: Errors End August 91,710,51 End September 68,279.50 Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Members: Correspondence the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many errors by staff of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in processing Mr Chope: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, claims have been recorded since its inception. [15724] representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, when Mr Charles Walker: For clarity, future answers will the Chairman of the Independent Parliamentary indicate where an issue is the responsibility of the Standards Authority plans to reply to the letter to him Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and of 13 July 2010 from the office of the hon. Member for not of the Speaker’s Committee. Christchurch. [14924] 683W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 684W

Mr Charles Walker: It has not been possible for IPSA The latest one-year survival figures available for (i) cancer to provide a response to this question by the named day. networks in England, for six common cancers are for patients IPSA will respond as soon as possible. diagnosed in 1991-2006 and followed up to 2007. These are available on the National Statistics website at: For clarity, future answers will indicate where an issue is the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=15387 Standards Authority and not of the Speaker’s Committee. The results are divided into three periods: 1991 - 1995, 1996 - 2000 and 2001 - 2006. The information requested falls within the responsibility The latest one-year survival figures available for (i) primary of the Independent parliamentary Standards Authority. care trusts in England, based on a cancer survival index for all I have asked IPSA to reply. cancers combined are for patients diagnosed during 1996-2006 Substantive answer from Andrew McDonald to Christopher and followed up to the end of 2007. These are available on the Chope: National Statistics website at: As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=15388 Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Figures are presented for each of the 11 years from 1996 - Question on correspondence. (14924) 2006, for all adults (persons aged 15-99 years), persons aged 55 - The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority does not 64 years and persons aged 75 - 99 years. intend to comment publicly on individual correspondence with The latest one-year survival figures available for (iii) England, MPs. At present, IPSA aims to respond to all emails and letters for 21 common cancers are for patients diagnosed in 2003-2007 within 5 working days. and followed up to the end of 2008. These are available on the Members: Telephone Services National Statistics website at: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk-14007 Luciana Berger: To ask the hon. Member for Comparable survival rates for England for each preceding five Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for year period back to 1998-2001 and followed up to 2003 can also the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, be downloaded from this link. what the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority’s (IPSA) most recent estimate is of the Charities: Surveys average waiting time for hon. Members who call the IPSA enquiry line. [16029] Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Charles Walker: For clarity, future answers will Office what estimate he has made of the cost to the indicate where an issue is the responsibility of the public purse of the most recent national survey of Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and charities and social enterprises; when the last such not of the Speaker’s Committee. survey was conducted; and if he will make a statement. The information requested falls within the responsibility [17748] of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Mr Hurd: The National Survey of Charities and Letter from Andrew McDonald to Luciana Berger: Social Enterprises is vital in providing detailed information As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary on the state of the sector at a local level and provides Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary communities, the sector and local and national government Question asking the average waiting time for callers to the IPSA with the information needed to support evidence-based enquiry line. (16029) decision making in response to public spending reductions During the month of September, the average call waiting time and drive forward real change in local areas. on the IPSA enquiry line was six minutes and fifty-seven seconds. The National Survey of Charities and Social Enterprises was first conducted in autumn 2008, and fieldwork is currently under way for the second wave of the survey, CABINET OFFICE with results due in early 2011. Cancer The total net cost of developing and conducting the survey in 2008 and 2010 is £1,465,876.63. The contract Mr Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for this work was competitively tendered in the Official what the one year cancer survival rate was for each type Journal of the European Union and awarded to the of cancer in people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 strongest bidder on the basis of the best value tender. to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years in (i) each cancer network, (ii) each Childbirth primary care trust and (iii) England in each of the last five years. [17162] Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the how many (a) live births and (b) stillbirths there were responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have in each region of England in each year since 2007. asked the authority to reply. [17591] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have one year cancer survival rate was for each type of cancer in people asked the authority to reply. aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years in (i) each cancer network, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of the last As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I five years. [017162] have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many ONS publish one-year cancer survival rates for adults (aged (a) live births and (b) stillbirths there were in each region of 15-99). Survival is calculated from the date of diagnosis. England in each year since 2007. (017591) 685W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 686W

The table below shows the numbers of live births and stillbirths in each Government Office Region of England in 2007, 2008 and 2009.

Number of live births and stillbirths in each Government Office Region of England: 2007, 2008 and 2009 Area of usual residence Live births Stillbirths 2007 2008 2009 2007 2008 2009

North East 29,582 30,217 29,776 146 179 143 North West 85,947 88,167 87,549 476 450 450 Yorkshire and the Humber 64,191 66,353 66,358 376 371 371 East Midlands 52,482 54,192 53,746 234 255 304 West Midlands 70,098 71,726 71,042 379 403 413 East 69,311 71,738 71,335 308 304 349 London 125,505 127,651 129,245 781 730 701 South East 101,238 104,023 103,669 475 471 476 South West 57,003 58,742 58,338 239 264 280 England 655,357 672,809 671,058 3,414 3,427 3,487

The final 2009 data in the table above were published in Employment: Chester September 2010 and are available at: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/ Stephen Mosley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet characteristics-of-births1.xls Office what proportion of the working population of —see Tables 5 and 6. The data for 2007 and 2008 can be found in City of Chester constituency is employed by the (a) FM1 Birth Statistics no. 36 and 37 - see tables 7.1 and 7.6: public and (b) private sector. [17355] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=5768 Civil Servants: Awards Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether there is any cost to the public purse of Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: holding the annual Civil Service awards. [16829] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what proportion of the working population of City of Chester Mr Maude: The annual Civil Service Awards were constituency is employed by the (a) public and (b) private sector. introduced in 2006. The Cabinet Office does not hold (17355) information on the costs of the awards as these are met The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles statistics for by the private publishing company Dods and its associated public sector employment from the Quarterly Public Sector sponsors. The Cabinet Office has never paid for venue Employment Survey (QPSES) and external sources, as this provides hire, speakers, refreshments or others costs associated a more accurate classification between the public and private with these awards. sectors. However these figures are not available for parliamentary This year, the fifth anniversary of the awards, the constituencies. ceremony will take place at Buckingham Palace. As in The ONS compiles employment statistics for local areas from previous years, Dods and their associated sponsors will the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Individuals are classified cover the costs of the ceremony. The awards ceremony to the public or private sector according to their responses to the will be followed by a reception given by her Majesty the APS. Consequently, the classification of an individual’s sector Queen and the costs for this, in common with other may differ from how they would be classified in QPSES statistics. receptions given by Her Majesty for official occasions, In the 12 month period April 2009 to March 2010, 71 per cent will be met from the civil list. of the working population of the City of Chester constituency were employed by the private sector with the remaining 29 per Departmental Drinking Water cent employed in the public sector. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Nick de Bois: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to a margin of uncertainty. Office how much his Department has spent on bottled National and local area estimates for many labour market water in each year since 2008. [16879] statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: Mr Maude: This information is not separately identified http://www.nomisweb.co.uk and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Government Departments: Procurement Departmental Manpower Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Gregg McClymont: To ask the Minister for the Office what exemptions from single tendering processes Cabinet Office how many officials his Department has are allowed to Departments awarding contracts to appointed on fixed-term contracts since 7 May 2010. external organisations. [15959] [16785] Mr Maude: Government procurement policy requires Mr Maude: Since 7 May to 11 October 2010, the that contracts be awarded to achieve value for money, Cabinet Office has made 26 fixed-term appointments. through fair and open competition, in compliance with 687W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 688W

EU treaty principles and, where applicable, UK regulations make it his policy to produce such estimates for each implementing the EU procurement directives. health authority area; and if he will make a statement. Single tendering is allowed only in specific circumstances, [17417] for which I would refer the hon. Member to sections 6 and 14 of the Public Contracts Regulations 2006: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/5/regulation/6/made asked the Authority to reply. and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/5/regulation/14/made As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I In addition to these exemptions, very low-value ad have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question hoc purchasing may sometimes be undertaken without to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking for what reason specific competition, if it is more cost-effective to do so. estimates are not produced for the number of centenarians in each constituency and region; if he will make it his policy to Government Departments: Work Experience produce such estimates for each health authority area; and if he will make a statement. (017417). Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The Office for National Statistics publishes a mid-year population Office what steps have been taken to broaden access to estimate for the age group 85 and over by constituencies, and age internships to under-represented minorities across 90 and over by regions. They also publish estimates of the very elderly (including centenarians) for England and Wales combined. Government departments; and if he will make a Mid-year estimates of centenarians are not produced for local statement. [17534] areas such as constituencies or health authority areas because the numbers are small and they are not robust at that level of detail. Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office is currently appraising The Office for National Statistics does not have any plans to options to enable all Departments to provide internships, produce estimates of the number of centenarians for subnational mindful of the requirement to provide such schemes areas. cost-effectively. Personal Income National Citizenship Service Ian Swales: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the average income of (a) a household and Office what process he plans to follow to determine the (b) a single parent household was in (i) England, (ii) skills to be offered under the National Citizen Service; the North East and (iii) Redcar constituency in the and how civil society organisations can contribute to most recent year for which figures are available. [16539] that process. [17961] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Mr Hurd: A commissioning process to select providers responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have for National Citizen Service pilot schemes in summer asked the Authority to reply. 2011 was opened on 2 August. We expect to announce Letter from Stephen Penneck dated October 2010: successful bidders shortly. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I The Government are committed to ensuring that have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the average income of a household and (b) a single parent household National Citizen Service is a challenging and enjoyable was in (i) England, (ii) the North East and (iii) Redcar constituency experience for young people which equips them with in the most recent year for which figures are available. (016539) skills to make a difference in their communities. It will Table 1 shows the estimated average net weekly equivalised be for NCS providers to define the precise activities household income in England, and the North East (both before young people will undertake on their schemes, within and after housing costs) for the years 2006/07 to 2008/09 (as a the parameters set out in the specification documents. three-year average, because regional single year estimates are As the programme progresses, my Department will subject to volatility) at 2008/09 prices, and similar income estimates continue to work with NCS providers on developing the for Redcar parliamentary constituency for 2007/08, at 2008/09 content for training and skills development activities. prices. These estimates are the latest available. Estimates for single-parent households for Redcar parliamentary constituency Older People are not available. The estimates provided for England, and the North East, are based on data from the Households Below Average Income series Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office produced by the Department for Work and Pensions, and small pursuant to the answer of 16 September 2010, Official area statistics for Redcar parliamentary constituency produced Report, column 1222, on older people, for what reason by the ONS. estimates are not produced for the number of These estimates, as with any involving sample surveys, are centenarians in each constituency and region; if he will subject to a margin of uncertainty.

Table 1: Average net weekly equivalised1 household income2 for all households and single-parent households,3 Redcar parliamentary constituency, the North East, and England, 2006-07—2008-094,5 £ per week All households Single-parent households Median Mean Median Mean Before housing After housing Before housing After housing Before housing After housing Before housing After housing costs costs costs costs costs costs costs costs

England 403 349 504 440 292 211 329 253 North East 357 317 418 372 257 201 287 229 689W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 690W

Table 1: Average net weekly equivalised1 household income2 for all households and single-parent households,3 Redcar parliamentary constituency, the North East, and England, 2006-07—2008-094,5 £ per week All households Single-parent households Median Mean Median Mean Before housing After housing Before housing After housing Before housing After housing Before housing After housing costs costs costs costs costs costs costs costs

Redcar — — 397 351 ———— 1 Data are based on OECD equivalisation factors which account for variation in household size and composition between survey years. 2 Incomes are presented net of income tax payments, national insurance contributions and council tax. 3 Single-parent households have been defined as households where there is at least one family consisting of one adult and at least one dependent child. 4 Estimates for England, and the North East are presented as three-year averages in 2008-09 prices. Estimates for Redcar constituency (based on the 2010 parliamentary constituency boundaries) are for 2007-08 in 2008-09 prices. 5 Housing costs include rent (gross of housing benefit), water charges, mortgage interest payments, structural insurance, ground rent and service charges. Source: Department for Work and Pensions and Office for National Statistics

Public Houses: Urban Areas big society. And, to make it easier for social enterprises to work with the state and connect with existing social Simon Hart: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet enterprise networks, the Office for Civil Society Strategic Office whether he has made an estimate of the number Partner’s programme provides social enterprise support of public houses in urban areas which have closed in organisations with the resources they need to support the last 12 months. [17872] their membership and to represent their voice to government. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Social Enterprises: Renewable Energy responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: Office whether funds from the Big Society Bank will be As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I available to social enterprises which operate have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question community-owned renewable energy schemes. [16588] concerning the number of pubs in urban areas which have closed in the last 12 months. [17872] Mr Hurd: The Big Society Bank will be a wholesale Annual statistics on the number of enterprise deaths are available institution with funds being used to assist or enable from the ONS release on Business Demography at: other organisations to give financial or other support to www.statistics.gov.uk social enterprises, charities and voluntary and community However, ONS does not produce information on enterprise deaths organisations. The bank may invest in social enterprises split into urban and rural areas. The table below contains the which operate community-owned energy schemes, through latest statistics available, which show enterprise deaths in the UK investment intermediaries rather than directly. in 2008 for public houses and bars. 2008 enterprise deaths in the UK for public houses and bars Social Enterprises: West Midlands

Number 7,390 Chris White: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many social enterprises were started in (a) Social Enterprises: Finance Warwick and Leamington constituency, (b) Warwickshire and (c) the West Midlands in each year Luciana Berger: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet since 2000. [17430] Office what support his Department provides for people to (a) establish micro social enterprises and (b) Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the connect with existing social enterprise networks. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. [17241] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: Mr Hurd: Social enterprises of all sizes have an As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I essential role to play in empowering individuals and have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question communities to take control and create the big society. concerning how many new social enterprises were started in (a) This Government are committed to supporting people Warwick and Leamington constituency, (b) Warwickshire and (c) the West Midlands in each year since 2000. [017430] to establish social enterprises, including micro social enterprises, by making it easier to run one, getting more Information on social enterprises is not available. Annual statistics on the number of enterprise births are available by resources into the sector, and making it easier for social geographical area from the ONS release on Business Demography enterprises to work with the state. at: To help make it easier to set up and run a social www.statistics.gov.uk enterprise, the joint Cabinet Office, Department for Business Innovation and Skills task force on cutting red Third Sector: Regulation tape is looking at how to reduce bureaucratic burdens and free up time and resources for social enterprises. To Richard Burden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet get more resources into the sector, the big society bank Office (1) what mechanisms are in place for monitoring will be set up with money from dormant bank accounts compliance by individual local authorities with the to build a more sustainable way of financing organisations provisions of the Compact on relations with the such as social enterprises, ready to play their part in the Voluntary and Community Sector; [16591] 691W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 692W

(2) what recent assessment he has made of the been unemployed for more than six months in each of contribution of the Compact to encouraging good the last five years. [16622] relations between local authorities and voluntary organisations in their areas. [16594] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Hurd: The Compact, published in December asked the Authority to reply. 2009, is an agreement between central Government and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: the voluntary, community and social enterprise (VCSE) As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I sector. Local Compacts, which are agreed locally between have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking the local statutory sector and the local VCSE, make an how many people in (a) Hartlepool constituency, (b) the North important contribution to encouraging good relations East and (c) England had been unemployed for more than six between local authorities and voluntary organisations. months in each of the last five years. (16622) Compact Voice, supported by the Cabinet Office, The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment offers practical help and guidance to local areas on how statistics in line with International Labour Organisation (ILO) to get their Local Compacts working effectively. They definitions for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS). also share best practice across England on how to Table 1 shows the number of persons who have been unemployed improve partnerships between public bodies and the for more than 6 months in England and the North East, from the APS, for the 12 month periods ending December from 2005 to VCSE sector. 2009 and for the 12 month period ending March 2010, which is Local Compacts must remain a local priority, negotiated the latest available estimate. However, due to the small sample and agreed according to local needs. All 152 top tier size, no reliable estimate is available for the Hartlepool constituency. authorities have voluntarily agreed Local Compacts As an alternative, in table 2, we have provided the number of with their local VCSE sector. persons claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance for more than 6 months in the Hartlepool constituency, along with the numbers for England Unemployment and the North East, for December of each year from 2005 to 2009. National and local area estimates for many labour market Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Office how many people in (a) Hartlepool count are available on the NOMIS website at http:// constituency, (b) the North East and (c) England had www.nomisweb.co.uk

Table 1: Number of persons unemployed for more than six months Thousand England North East Hartlepool

12 months ending December 2005 436 27 n/a December 2006 537 35 n/a December 2007 556 32 n/a December 2008 588 38 n/a December 2009 869 58 n/a March 2010 *953 **64 ****n/a n/a = Not available 1. Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality as follows. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5 per cent. we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220 Key Coefficient of Variation (CV) (%) Statistical Robustness * 0 = CV<5 Estimates are considered precise ** 5 = CV <10 Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20 Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20 Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes Source: Annual Population Survey

Vacancies The Vacancy Survey asks businesses for the number of vacancies that they are actively seeking to fill from outside their organisation. Duncan Hames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet However, it does not collect any information on whether these Office how many of the 467,000 unfilled vacancies vacancies are full-time, part-time, permanent or temporary. identified by the Office for National Statistics vacancy survey in the three months to August 2010 were (a) An alternative source of vacancy information is administrative data from Jobcentre Plus. This source has partial coverage, only full-time, (b) part-time and (c) temporary. [16729] collecting information on vacancies that are registered with Jobcentre Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Plus. In August 2010, Jobcentre Plus had 280,000 unfilled vacancies responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have in their system, of which 75% were full-time and 25% part-time. asked the authority to reply. Information is not available on how many of the vacancies related Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: to permanent or temporary work. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I National and local area estimates for many labour market have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant how many of the 467,000 unfilled vacancies identified by the count are available on the NOMIS website at: Office for National Statistics vacancy survey in the three months to August 2010 were (a) full-time, (b) part-time and (c) temporary. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk (016729) 693W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 694W

HEALTH North-west: One event was attended by 50 NHS staff. North-east: Two events were attended by a total of 44 NHS Arthritis staff. South-east: Two events but NHS staff attended in their own Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health time. if he will publish on his Department’s website links to The Yorkshire and Humber and the east midlands information on the signs and symptoms of rheumatoid regions also held events but do not hold records of arthritis for patients and clinicians which has been NHS staff attendance. The east of England and south-west drawn up by the Rheumatology Futures Group. [17966] regions did not hold any Big Drink Debate events. It is not possible to calculate the cost to the taxpayer Paul Burstow: The Department will publish on its of NHS staff attendance at these events. website a link to the information on the signs and symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis drawn up by the Dementia Rheumatology Futures Project Group. This will be accessible at: Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Electivecare/index.htm Health (1) what funding his Department has allocated Arthritis: Health Services for expenditure on dementia services in 2010-11; and under what budgetary headings he expects such expenditure to be incurred; [17622] Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the ability of GP (2) what recent assessment his Department has made consortia to commission rheumatoid arthritis services of progress in the implementation of each objective of appropriately. [17388] the National Dementia Strategy for England. [17660]

Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and Paul Burstow: The Department does not break down Excellence: Liberating the NHS’ set out our proposals primary care trust (PCT) allocations by policies, at to devolve power and responsibility for commissioning either the national or local level. It is for PCTs to decide services to local consortia of general practitioner (GP) their priorities for investment locally. The revised NHS practices. Operating Framework issued in June 2010 made clear that PCTs and their partners should publish how they GPs play a crucial role in co-ordinating patient care are implementing the National Dementia Strategy to and committing national health service resources through increase local accountability for prioritisation. This is daily clinical decisions. Our proposals for this new to support a move away from central command to local model of commissioning draw on the regular contact determination. that GPs have with patients and their more detailed understanding of patients’ wider health care needs. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of We propose that GP consortia will be responsible for State for Health (1) what recent discussions he has had commissioning the great majority of NHS services. We with NHS trusts on the distribution of funding will expect consortiums to involve relevant health and provided through the National Dementia Strategy; and social care professionals from all sectors in helping if he will make a statement; [17632] design care pathways or care packages that achieve (2) how much the NHS has spent on dementia more integrated delivery of care, higher quality, and services in (a) Gloucestershire and (b) England in more efficient use of NHS resources. This will create an each of the last five years; and if he will make a effective dialogue across all health and, where appropriate, statement. [17633] social care professionals. To support GP consortiums in their commissioning Paul Burstow: No discussions have taken place with decisions, we will also create an independent NHS national health service trusts specifically on the distribution Commissioning Board. of funding for dementia services. The Department does ‘Liberating the NHS: Commissioning for Patients’ not break down primary care trust (PCT) allocations by invited views on a number of areas of the commissioning policies, at either the national or local level. It is for agenda. The engagement exercise closed on 11 October PCTs to decide their priorities for investment locally. and the Department is now analysing all of the Information is not held centrally on expenditure on contributions received. dementia services, either in Gloucestershire or England as a whole. However, the NHS Information Centre is Big Drink Debate currently undertaking an audit of dementia services in England, the results of which are expected to be available Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for in November. Health how many NHS staff attended each Big Drink Debate event; and at what cost to the public purse. Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for [17393] Health (1) whether he expects implementation of the National Dementia Strategy to include steps to Anne Milton: Attendance by national health service improve the quality of care for people with alcohol- staff at events linked to regional Big Drink Debates was related dementia; [17634] as follows: (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the London: One event was attended by six NHS staff. implementation of the National Dementia Strategy on West midlands: 16 events were attended by a total of 48 NHS the quality of care provided for people diagnosed with staff. alcohol-related dementia. [17763] 695W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 696W

Paul Burstow: Implementation of the National Dementia Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Strategy should benefit all people with the condition, Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, including those with alcohol-related dementia. The Strategy Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies states that the risk of dementia may be reduced if we reform, what the functions of the Scientific Advisory protect our general health, including drinking less alcohol. Committee on Nutrition are; which of these functions Information on the quality of care provided for people are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to diagnosed with alcohol-related dementia is not collected have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18316] centrally. Anne Milton: The Scientific Advisory Committee on Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Nutrition (SACN) provides advice to the Food Standards Health how much funding his Department provided for Agency and United Kingdom Health Departments as medical research into dementia in (a) 2007-08, (b) well as other Government agencies and Departments. 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10; and what percentage of his Its remit includes matters concerning nutrient content Department’s health research budget this represented of individual foods, advice on diet and the nutritional in each such year. [17659] status of people. The remit/function of SACN will remain unchanged, following its reconstitution into a Paul Burstow: The expenditure figures for the Department departmental committee of experts. Once the change is are shown in the following table. enacted SACN will continue to be responsible for the Estimated expenditure on dementia research remit/function but as a departmental committee of Proportion of total experts. expenditure from research and development revenue budget Departmental Recruitment (percentage) £ million

2007-08 2.9 22.2 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2008-09 2.2 18.4 what plans he has to recruit staff to senior Civil Service 2009-10 1.4 12.7 posts in the next 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [17386] Departmental Manpower Mr Simon Burns: A recruitment freeze is currently in place, which affects external recruitment into the civil Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service, with exemptions allowed for business critical how many staff are currently employed by his and frontline posts so not to jeopardise frontline delivery. Department, broken down by (a) grade and (b) age; The Fast Stream graduate programme is also exempt. and how many were so employed in (i) 1980, (ii) 1983, (iii) 1987, (iv) 1992, (v) 1997, (vi) 2001 and (vii) 2005. In addition to the recruitment freeze, staffing plans [17359] will not be finalised until after the spending review, when the impact on Departments will be made clearer. Mr Simon Burns: Information about how many staff As a result, there is only one planned senior recruitment are employed by the Department, broken down by in the pipeline and that is for the role of Chief Medical grade and age, is included in the Civil Service Statistics Officer. The appointment process will follow the protocol, published on the Cabinet Office’s website at: drawn up by the Senior Leadership Committee and the www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/stats-archive/ Civil Service Commissioners, which outlines the process archived-reports.aspx in which appointments to and within the Top 200 (the most senior posts in the civil service) are handled.

Departmental NDPBs Diabetes: Young People

Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, he will take steps to reduce the number of children and Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies young people at high risk of potentially preventable reform, what the functions of the Advisory Committee complications of diabetes. [17959] on Dangerous Pathogens are; which of these functions are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to Paul Burstow: It is vital that children with diabetes have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18311] get good quality clinical care and that health and education services work in partnership to ensure that children can Anne Milton: The functions of the Advisory Committee be supported while living a full, active life. on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) are outlined in the current terms of reference: NHS Diabetes, the national service improvement team for diabetes, has developed a commissioning toolkit, “To advise the Health and Safety Executive, and Ministers for which will assist in the commissioning of local services the Department of Health and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and their counterparts under devolution for children and young people with diabetes. It has also in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as required, on all established a Paediatric Diabetes Network in each of aspects of hazards and risks to workers and others from exposure the strategic health authority (SHA) regions to drive to pathogens”. improvements in the services delivered to children and All the functions of the ACDP will be retained and, young people with diabetes. following its reconstitution as departmental committee NHS Diabetes is also working on various projects to of experts, ACDP will continue to be responsible for the improve the care of children and young people with fulfilling of those functions. diabetes. They include: 697W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 698W

producing materials for children and young people and their Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State families to help educate them about managing the condition as it for Health (1) what his most recent estimate is on the progresses. This work is still in the early stages of development, average length of hospital stay for people with but is being built upon the developing evidence base from a haematological cancers after (a) elective and (b) number of relevant clinical studies; emergency admissions; [17755] the establishment of a Paediatric Diabetes Network in each of the SHA regions to drive improvements in the services delivered (2) how many (a) admissions, (b) emergency to children and young people with diabetes. The aim of the admissions and (c) bed days there were for (i) all paediatric networks is to define a clear philosophy of care, which haematological cancers, (ii) all leukaemias, (iii) incorporates improving outcomes and quality of life for children Hodgkin lymphoma, (iv) non-Hodgkin lymphoma, (v) and young people living with diabetes; and myeloma, (vi) malignant immunoproliferative diseases running a task and finish group which is developing work on and (vii) each other haematological cancer in each (A) health care professional training and education; and children and primary care trust and (B) cancer network in the latest young people and families education. The health care professional period for which figures are available. [17777] work is with the royal colleges and others to influence standards and agree required competencies and new curriculums, which reflect good practice publishing a Commissioning Care Guide, Paul Burstow: Information on the average length of this sets out the appropriate emotional and psychological care hospital stay for those with a primary diagnosis of interventions for each facet of diabetes care. This is of particular haematological cancer for elective and emergency relevance for children and young people to enable them tackle the admissions during 2008-09 has been placed in the Library. challenges of their conditions and care for themselves effectively from day to day. Information on the number of admissions, emergency admissions and bed days there were for all haematological General Practitioners: Finance cancers, all leukaemias, Hodgkin lymphoma, non-Hodgkin Lymphoma, myeloma, malignant immunoproliferative Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for diseases and each other haematological cancer in each Health pursuant to the answer of 15 September 2010, primary care for 2008-09, the latest period for which Official Report, columns 1110-11W, on general figures are available, has been placed in the Library. practitioners: finance, what funding formula the NHS This figure does not represent a count of people as the Commissioning Board will use to allocate money to same person may have been admitted on more than one general practitioner consortia. [17988] occasion. Information at cancer network level is not held centrally. Mr Simon Burns: For 2013-14 onwards, the NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for the fair Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and efficient use of resources in the national health for Health what estimate he made of the cost to the service. The board will make allocations to general public purse of (a) surgical interventions, (b) complex practitioner (GP) consortia on the basis of securing radiotherapy, (c) chemotherapy and (d) stem cell equivalent access to NHS services in all areas, relative transplants for patients with haematological cancers (i) to the prospective burden of disease and disability. in each primary care trust, (ii) in each cancer network The detail of how resources are allocated to GP and (iii) nationally in the latest year for which figures Consortia will be a matter for the Commissioning Board. are available. [17756] However, the independent Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation has been asked by the Secretary of Paul Burstow: Information on the cost of surgical State to continue to provide advice on the equitable interventions, complex radiotherapy, chemotherapy and distribution of NHS resources during the transition to stem cell transplants for patients with haematological the board. cancers, in each primary care trust (PCT), in each Shadow allocations to GP Consortia will be published cancer network and nationally, cannot be provided in in late 2011 for 2012-13, and actual allocations for the format requested. 2013-14 in late 2012. An estimate of the cost of treating haematological cancer for 2008-09, the most recent year for which Haematological Cancer figures are available, for each PCT, each cancer network and nationally, has been placed in the Library. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent estimate he has made of the Expenditure on complex radiotherapy or chemotherapy proportion of patients with a haematological cancer is included within the cancer, other subcategory. This is who receive chemotherapy (a) in total and (b) at because there is insufficient information within the coding to map these costs to a specific cancer subcategory. home. [17754]

Paul Burstow: For 2008-09, the number of finished Heart Diseases consultant episodes where the primary diagnosis was haematological cancer and where chemotherapy was Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for provided was 96,505. Health what recent estimate his Department has made This data is for those treated in national health of the appropriate number of implantations of (a) service hospitals or in the independent sector, commissioned pacemakers and (b) implantable cardiac defibrillators by the NHS. This figure does not reflect an exact count per million of population. [17527] of people as the same person may have been admitted on more than one occasion. Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not make Information for those who received treatment at home any estimates of the appropriate number of implantations is not held centrally. of pacemakers and implantable cardiac defibrillators. It 699W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 700W is for local commissioners to decide what local services Midwives by age as at 30 September 2009 to fund depending on the priorities around their local Age Headcount population. 65 and over 132 However, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Unknown1 2,138 Excellence’s technology appraisal guidance on Implantable 1 Data on the age of bank staff are not available. cardioverter defibrillators for arrhythmias (TA95) sets Source: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce out current thinking on good practice in this area. A Census copy of this can be found at: http://guidance.nice.org.uk/TA95 National Stroke Strategy Insulin Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he intends to review progress on implementation John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the National Stroke Strategy. [18240] (1) if he will assess the contribution of insulin pump therapy use to improving the quality of life of people Mr Simon Burns: Progress with implementation of with type 1 diabetes; [17894] the stroke strategy is kept under regular review. The Department receives information, data and feedback (2) if he will take steps to increase the level of use of from a number of independent sources such as the insulin pumps as a treatment for type one diabetes. Stroke Sentinel Audit and the Stroke Improvement [17960] National Audit Programme. The national health service reports on a Tier 1 Vital Sign and all strategic health Paul Burstow: For those people with diabetes who authorities monitor progress with implementation of have been identified by their healthcare professional as the strategy. In addition, in February the National being suitable for insulin pump therapy, we would not Audit Office published a comprehensive report on progress expect there to be any unnecessary delays in the provision in improving stroke care following the launch of the of insulin pumps. stroke strategy in 2007. The National Clinical Director for Diabetes, Dr Rowan Hillson MBE is chairing a working group to specifically NHS: Accountability focus on the uptake of insulin pumps, which will meet shortly. Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what statutory duties are placed upon local authority In July 2008, the National Institute of Health and health overview and scrutiny committees; and which Clinical Excellence (NICE) issued a review of its guidance such duties they will retain in 2014. [16749] on insulin pump therapy, which is supported by separate guidance on the commissioning of insulin pump services. Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Act 2001 Implementation of the NICE guidance is the responsibility states that each local authority must have a committee of commissioners and/or providers. that is able to undertake the health overview and scrutiny While insulin pump therapy can make a difference to role. The role comprises of two elements: glycaemic control and quality of life in some people, it (a) To be consulted by national health service bodies on any is not appropriate for everyone. Therefore, all decisions proposals for substantial developments of the health service in about insulin pump therapy and the means of delivering the area of a local authority, or for a substantial variation in the it must be made in consultation between the person provision of such service; and with diabetes (and/or their parents or carer) and their (b) To be able to take an overview, and then scrutinise health healthcare professional. and well-being issues that are a priority to local people. Following the recent consultation on the White Paper— It is not the role of the Department to assess the Equity and Excellence—and the proposals contained in impact of medical technologies. Local Democratic Legitimacy, and in light of feedback Midwives: Age received, the Government are considering the way forward for health scrutiny and the balance of powers and duties on local authorities. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the age profile is of midwives employed by the Non-departmental Public Bodies NHS. [17589] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The age profile of midwives employed pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official in the national health service in England is shown in the Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how following table. many staff are employed by the Scientific Advisory Midwives by age as at 30 September 2009 Committee on Nutrition; how many such staff will be Age Headcount transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; and what Under 25 710 estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of 25-29 2,175 redundancy payments for these staff. [18172] 30-34 2,641 35-39 2,900 Anne Milton: The Scientific Advisory Committee on 40-44 4,490 Nutrition do not employ staff, therefore there will be no 45-49 5,014 redundancies or associated redundancy costs. The secretariat 50-54 3,591 for the committee is provided by the Department. A 55-59 1,890 secretariat function will continue to be provided for the 60-64 770 reconstituted committee of experts. 701W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 702W

Respiratory Diseases of both the GSCC and the HPC has been asked to advise Ministers on an appropriate name for the new Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for organisation. Health what assessment he has made of regional The Social Work Reform Board and other key partners variations in the prevalence of chronic obstructive in the sector are being engaged in discussions about the pulmonary disease. [18137] transfer, including the name of the new of body. However, it will ultimately be for Parliament to approve any Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the proposed new name. written answer I gave the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) on 14 October 2010, Official Report, Strokes column 394W. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Smoking what advice is provided to carers and families of people who have had a stroke on (a) dietary requirements and Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (b) future stroke prevention following their discharge what his policy is on the exercise by local authorities of from hospital; and if he will make a statement. [17356] powers restricting smoking in public places. [17287] Mr Simon Burns: The stroke strategy launched in Anne Milton: Local councils exercise power to restrict December 2007, sets out 20 ’quality markers’ which smoking in public places in accordance with the guidance outline the features of high quality stroke care. This for council regulatory officers—‘Implementation of includes what advice and support should be given to smokefree legislation in England’, which was compiled stroke survivors and their carers/families on the prevention by local government regulation (formerly LACORS), of recurrent stroke through life-style interventions, such the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health (CIEH) as the key components of a healthy diet, when they are and the Trading Standards Institute. discharged from hospital to the community. The evidence indicates that the exercise of these powers has been particularly successful in achieving the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health objectives of the legislation, compliance with the regulations (1) what research his Department has commissioned on and the protection of people from the harm done by (a) strokes and (b) related conditions in each of the second-hand tobacco smoke, with minimal burden on last three years; and if he will make a statement; businesses. During 2006 and early 2007 the Department [17358] funded training for local authority officers and for (2) whether his Department has commissioned businesses, particularly in the hospitality sector, to assist recent research on the repair and replacement of dead with the smooth implementation of the regulations. brain cells in people following a stroke; and if he will The training carried out by the CIEH was widely recognised make a statement; [17378] at the time as making a significant contribution to the successful implementation of the smokefree law. (3) what research his Department has commissioned on the (a) causes and (b) prevention of stroke since Social Services: Regulation 1990; and if he will make a statement. [17413]

Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s National Institute what plans he has to consult social workers on for Health Research (NIHR) clinical research network proposed changes to arrangements for their is currently providing national health service research registrations. [17656] infrastructure support to 161 studies in stroke and a range of studies on related conditions. Details can be Paul Burstow: The proposed changes to the arrangements found on the UK Clinical Research Network portfolio for the registration of social workers were announced in database at: July 2010 as part of the Department’s arm’s-length http://public.ukcrn.org.uk/search/Portfolio.aspx?Levell=6 bodies review Equity and Excellence: Liberating the Records of individual NHS supported research projects NHS. This review contains indicative timescales for collected up to September 2007, including details of implementation, which will require primary legislation projects on causes, prevention, and other aspects of and be subject to the legislative timetable. stroke and on related conditions, are available on the More detailed plans will be developed in discussion archived national research register (NRR) at: with all interested parties, including the Social Work https://portal.nihr.ac.uk/Pages/NRRArchiveSearch.aspx Reform Board. These plans will be determined by the The NRR evolved out of a pilot project in 1998. need to maintain public protection, professional confidence Some of the records in the pilot referred to projects and ensure that people are treated fairly and with from the early 1990s and these were incorporated into respect. the register. Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Two of the NIHR’s biomedical research centres are if he will take steps to ensure that the proposed new undertaking research relating to therapies for body for the regulation of social workers include the neurodegeneration following stroke. term social work in its title. [17657] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: An oversight group has been established what steps his Department has taken since 1990 to to support the transfer of General Social Care Council increase the standard of healthcare for people who (GSCC) functions to the Health Professions Council have had a stroke; and if he will make a statement. (HPC). This group which includes the chief executives [17379] 703W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 704W

Mr Simon Burns: In line with advances in medicine to 75 years old and 76 years and above, and by strategic and technology, the Department recognised the importance health authority of residence from 2006-07 to 2008-09. of improving stroke services and included specific Information is not collected centrally on the severity milestones, targets and actions in the National Service of stroke. Framework (NSF) for Older People launched in March Note: 2001. The data do not represent the number of different patients since a The national Stroke Strategy, launched in 2007, set person may have more than one episode of care within the same out a comprehensive approach to the provision of stroke stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. The data care with quality markers covering all aspects of stroke may in some years not total to the published finished consultant care from prevention and awareness through to long-term episodes for stroke since the data provided do not include episodes care in the community. It was accompanied by central where the sex of the patient was not specified or not known. funding over the three years 2008-09 to 2010-11 to Patients who die before reaching hospital or who are not admitted to hospital are not counted in the data. support specific early aspects of implementation. Over the same period there was an annual increase in primary Tobacco: Sales care trust allocations, among other things, to reflect the cost of implementing the strategy. Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for To implement the strategy, the Department established Health what steps he plans to take to prevent children the Stroke Improvement Programme and 28 stroke care from viewing tobacco displays; and if he will make a networks. They are currently delivering the Accelerating statement. [17471] Stroke Improvement programme which aims to help local areas to continue to improve stroke care. Anne Milton: The Government are currently considering The coalition Government are committed to supporting regulations, including the Tobacco Advertising and continued improvement in stroke care and their long-term Promotion (Display) (England) Regulations 2010, and goal is to see stroke services in this country become developing options around the display of tobacco in among the best in the world. shops that seek to ensure an appropriate balance between public health priorities and burdens on business. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what aftercare is provided on discharge from hospital to people who have had a stroke; and if he will make a JUSTICE statement. [17414] Answers received for publication Monday 18 October 2010. Mr Simon Burns: The national stroke strategy launched in December 2007, sets out 20 ‘quality markers’ which Alternatives To Prison outline features of high quality stroke care across the pathway from prevention and awareness to life-long Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for support in the community. A copy of the strategy has Justice what plans he has for future funding of the already been placed in the Library. Chapter 3, ‘Life intensive alternative to custody programme for after stroke’, sets out the wide range of support someone offenders in Derbyshire. [17183] may need after a stroke. The range of support can include speech therapy, psychological support, Mr Blunt: At present there are no plans to extend physiotherapy, access to leisure, education, activities central funding for IAC beyond the end of the current and work, accessible and aphasia-friendly information financial year. and support groups and help-lines. The Derbyshire scheme is 50% funded from the original A recent National Audit Office report on stroke pilot fund and 50% from the Regional Director of services noted that more improvement was needed on Offender Management. The pilot will end in Derbyshire the post acute and longer term care part of the pathway. once the capacity for commencements is reached. The The Accelerating Stroke Improvement programme is target for this financial year is 80 commencements and therefore encouraging local areas to focus on improving approximately 50 have been achieved to date. Therefore, arrangements for joint care plans, for six month and it is anticipated that the IAC pilot will have reached subsequent reviews and for access to psychological support. capacity in December 2010 after which time no further These measures offer opportunities for assessing the recommendations for IAC will be made to the Courts. needs of stroke survivors and their carers. Meeting This will allow existing IAC orders to be completed those needs more effectively will, over time, improve within the present funding arrangements. outcomes for people post-stroke. Locally, options are being explored to maintain some key elements of IAC through partnership arrangements Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health but the Probation Trust is not able to continue to what estimate he made of the number of (a) men and provide IAC within existing resources. (b) women in each age group in each health authority area who had a stroke at each level of severity in each Coroners and Justice Act 2009 of the last three years. [17421] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) Mr Simon Burns: The data in the table, which has what discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the been placed in the Library, include the number of Exchequer on the implementation of section 155 of the finished consultant episodes where there was a primary Coroners and Justice Act 2009, with particular or secondary diagnosis of stroke. This has been broken reference to the allocation of funds recovered under down by gender for age groups 64 years and under; 65 that provision; [16571] 705W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 706W

(2) when he plans to bring into force section 155 and and we will publish proposals for public consultation in related provisions of the Coroners and Justice a Green Paper on rehabilitation and sentencing later Act 2009. [16572] this autumn.

Mr Blunt: Part 7 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 Departmental Work Experience (Criminal Memoirs etc.) was commenced by the previous Administration on 6 April 2010 and applies throughout Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for the United Kingdom. It created a civil scheme whereby Justice how many interns his Department has engaged the High Courts in England and Wales and Northern in the last 12 months; and how many were (a) unpaid, Ireland, and the Court of Session in Scotland, can (b) remunerated with expenses only and (c) paid at the make certain offenders the subject of an “exploitation rate of the national minimum wage or above. [17219] proceeds order”. The offender may be ordered to pay the value of any benefit derived from the exploitation of Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice has engaged 25 material about the commission of serious offences to interns in the last 12 months. Of these, 22 were paid at a the relevant enforcement authority. Section 155(7) states salary of £22,755 pa (the entry level for the first management that any sum received by an enforcement authority grade). Three were part-time students engaged through pursuant to an ’exploitation proceeds order’ must be specific schemes run by their educational institutions as paid into the Consolidated Fund (or the Scottish part of their studies. These were unpaid. Consolidated Fund where the scheme is operated in Scotland). Pleural Plaques David Kelly Death Inquiry Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he expects his Department to begin Justice on what dates (a) he and (b) officials of his making payments in respect of pleural plaques; and if Department have held meetings relating to the death of he will make a statement. [16826] Dr David Kelly since his appointment; and who was present at each such meeting. [16696] Mr Djanogly: The extra-statutory scheme, which was set up to provide one-off payments of £5000 to individuals Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have discussed matters relating who had begun but not resolved a legal claim for to Dr David Kelly in a meeting with Nicola Blackwood compensation for pleural plaques at the time of the MP on 21 July, Lord Hutton on 7 September and in House of Lords judgment, opened for applications on 2 routine meetings with the Attorney-General during which August 2010. we discuss a range of issues. In order to support me on Further details about eligibility for the scheme and this matter, officials have met to discuss this issue as and how to apply are available from: when necessary. https://pleuralplaques.justice.gov.uk Defamation: Legal Aid or by telephoning the helpline number on 0300 303 8150. Applications can be made through the website or by phone, and all applications must be received by 1 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for August 2011 to be eligible for payment under the scheme. Justice what recent estimate he has made of the proportion of civil legal aid which is spent on libel Prison Escapes cases. [16832]

Mr Djanogly: Libel cases are out of scope and are Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice therefore not covered by legal aid. (1) what proportion of prisoners absconded from (a) Prescoed Prison, Usk and (b) each other open prison Departmental Manpower in 2009; [16596] (2) how many of the prisoners who absconded from Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prescoed Prison, Usk in the last six months had been how many (a) officials of his Department and (b) convicted of crimes which included violent behaviour; external advisers are working on his Department’s [16597] review of short sentences. [16671] (3) how many prisoners have absconded from Prescoed Prison, Usk in the last six months. [16598] Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is conducting a full assessment of sentencing to ensure that it is effective in Mr Blunt: The number of prisoners absconding from deterring crime, protecting the public, punishing offenders each open prison in 2009 is shown in the following table. and reducing reoffending. It is not possible to represent this as a proportion A small team within the Ministry of Justice has been without knowing the throughput of prisoners in each working on the assessment, including five people full-time. prison over the year period. Whilst figures on numbers This team is formed by officials based in existing criminal of prisoners in a prison at any point in time are held policy teams within the Ministry of Justice. The team centrally, data on throughput of prisoners is not held has been supported by other officials across the Ministry centrally and it would incur disproportionate cost to of Justice as part of their other duties. ask each open prison to calculate this figure. There are no advisers external to Government working There has been one abscond from HMP Prescoed/Usk on the assessment of sentencing. We have been consulting relating to a prisoner convicted of violent crime between informally among a wide range of people and organisations, 1 March 2010 and 30 September 2010. 707W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 708W

There have been two absconds from HMP Prescoed/Usk Percentage between 1 March 2010 and 30 September 2010. The number of absconds has decreased year on year. Protected vegetables (tomatoes, 3 cucumber, lettuce, celery and sweet In the financial year 2006-07 there were 555 absconds peppers) whilst in 2008-09 there were 363. Other vegetables (asparagus, leeks, 70 Recapture rates remain high at 96%. Figures for watercress, mushrooms) 2009-10 are due to be published later this year. Orchard fruit (dessert apples, culinary 0 apples, pears and plums) Table: Absconds from prisons in England and Wales—January to December 1100 2009 Establishment Number of absconds Soft fruits (strawberries, raspberries, 20 blackberries and blackcurrants) Askham Grange 3 Frozen meat and poultry (April 8 Dover 2 March 9) East Sutton Park 1 Poultry meat 2 Ford 33 Beef and veal 46 Grendon 22 Mutton and lamb 65 Moorland 23 Bacon 0 Hewell 17 Pork 18 Hollesley Bay 12 Fish 83 1 Kirkham 12 100% applies to all culinary apples purchased Kirklevington 4 Probation Leyhill 38 Lindholme 1 North Sea Camp 13 Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Norwich (Britten House Open Element) 3 (1) what assessment he has made of the likely effects on Prescoed 3 (a) Probation Service staff numbers and (b) prisoners Standford Hill 19 in Greater London of Probation Service spending Sudbury 30 reductions of (i) 10, (ii) 20 and (iii) 30 per cent; [16604] Thorn Cross 39 (2) what assessment he has made of the likely effects Note: on prisoner numbers in London of Probation Service These figures have been drawn from live administrative data systems which may spending reductions of (a) 10, (b) 20 and (c) 30 per be amended at any time. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any cent; [16606] large scale recording system. (3) what assessment he has made of the likely effects Prisons: Food on the (a) caseload of Greater London Probation Service and (b) provision by that service of court Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for reports and supervision of people on parole licences of Justice what proportion of food supplied to prisons Probation Service spending reductions of (i) 10, (ii) under contracts negotiated by the National Offender 20 and (iii) 30 per cent. [17069] Management Service was domestically produced in the latest period for which figures are available. [16861] Mr Blunt: Like other public bodies, London Probation Trust must seek to use public funds in as effective a way Mr Blunt: The most recent information is supplied to as possible. As part of that, they must apply rigorous the Ministry of Justice (including public sector prisons financial controls and undertake financial planning against in England and Wales) by prime food contractors under a range of factors. These include, not only their overall contracts negotiated by HM Prison Service, now part of budget, but also changes to the number of offenders the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) is requiring supervision, the effectiveness of interventions, shown in the following table. and offending patterns. The Director of Offender Management for London, who commissions the services Percentage provided by London Probation Trust, will finalise the Bakery (September 9 - October 10) negotiations with them in the light of the outcome of Bread loaves and rolls 100 the comprehensive spending review. These discussions Dairy (September 9 - October 10) will stress the need to ensure that front line activities are delivered as efficiently as possible and that HQ and Whole Eggs (in shells) 100 support costs are minimised. Fresh milk (whole, semi-skimmed, 100 skimmed) Cheese 93 Prosecutions: Convictions Fresh vegetables, salads and fruit (September 9 October 10) Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Ware potatoes (whole and 98 unprepared) how many (a) prosecutions and (b) convictions there Processed potatoes (whole and cut) 100 have been for offences under section 32(1) of the Roots and onions (carrots, parsnips, 54 Chiropractors Act 1994 in each year since 2000. [17099] onions, turnips and swedes) Brassicas (Brussels sprouts, cabbage 99 Mr Blunt: The number of defendants proceeded against and cauliflower) at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for Legumes (beans broad, beans runner n/a offences under Section 32 of the Chiropractors Act 1994, and dwarf, peas (green for market), peas (green for processing), peas England and Wales 2000 to 2008 (latest available) are (harvested dry) shown in the table. 709W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 710W

Data for 2009 will be published on 21 October 2010. Welfare Benefit Cases: Legal Aid Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty1,2 at all courts for offences under Section 32 of the Chiropractors Act 19. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for 1994, England and Wales 2000 to 2008 Justice how much his Department spent on legal aid in Proceeded against Found guilty respect of defendants in cases involving welfare 20003 ——benefits in each year since 2007. [17830] 2001 — — 2002 — — Mr Djanogly: There are no legally aided defendants 2003 — — in welfare benefits cases. Those responding to such 2004 — — cases would usually be a central or local government 2005 — — department, such as the Department for Work and 2006 2 1 Pensions. 2007 2 2 Legal aid is available for advice, though not normally 20084 ——for representation, on welfare benefits matters, including 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom for individuals appealing to the Social Security and these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When Child Support Tribunal. During the financial year 2007-08 a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for expenditure on legal aid for welfare benefits matters two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory was £22.3 million, in 2008-09 it was £24.8 million and in maximum penalty is the most severe. 2009-10 it was £28.3 million. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Justice how much his Department spent on legal aid in processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. respect of defendants in cases involving welfare 3 Staffordshire Police Force were only able to supply a sample of data for benefits in each year since 2007. [17820] magistrates courts proceedings covering one full week in each quarter for 2000. Estimates based on this sample are included in the figures as they are considered sufficiently robust at this high level of analysis. Mr Djanogly: There are no legally aided defendants 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. in welfare benefits cases. Those responding to such Source: cases would usually be a central or local government Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice department, such as the Department for Work and Trials: Administrative delays Pensions. Legal aid is available for advice, though not normally Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for representation, on welfare benefits matters, including what assessment he has made of the likely effects on for individuals appealing to the Social Security and (a) caseload, (b) processing times and (c) the number Child Support Tribunal. During the financial year 2007-08 of adjournments in courts in Greater London of HM expenditure on legal aid for welfare benefits matters Courts Service spending reductions of (i) 10, (ii) 20 and was £22.3 million, in 2008-09 it was £24.8 million and in (iii) 30 per cent. [16605] 2009-10 it was £28.3 million.

Mr Djanogly: No assessment has been made of the Crown Court Sentencing Survey potential effects of spending reductions on courts in London. The Government are committed to ensuring 20. Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for that there is an efficient and effective justice system. The Justice what assessment he has made of the impact of potential spending reductions on HM Courts effectiveness of Crown Court sentencing survey forms Service cannot be assessed until the announcement of in assisting judges in their sentencing duties. [17831] the outcome of the spending review. Mr Blunt: The Crown Court Sentencing Survey is Answers received for publication Tuesday 19 October being conducted by the Sentencing Council. It is essential 2010 to enable the Sentencing Council to fulfil its statutory responsibilities to prepare guidelines, monitor their use Prisoner Activities and assess impact. It will help the Council to produce guidelines that will provide greater assistance to judges.

17. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Prison Service Staff: Training Justice what plans he has to increase the proportion of time that prisoners spend in purposeful activity. [17828] 21. Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent discussions he has had with Mr Blunt: The Government are committed to overhauling ministerial colleagues on the provision of training for the system of rehabilitation and we will set out our prison service staff on the management of offenders intentions in a forthcoming Green Paper. with mental health conditions. [17832] We believe that custodial and community sentences should punish offenders, but they should also be productive Mr Blunt: Ministry of Justice and Department of - focused on getting offenders into work, off drugs and Health ministers and senior officials discuss offender contributing to society. health issues regularly. Over 17,000 prison officers received We are exploring how prisoners could spend more of mental health awareness training between 2006 and their time doing productive, meaningful work. As part 2009. A new mental health training framework was of this we are looking to expand the prisoner working launched in 2009-2010, which regional offender health week to up to 40 hours. teams now co-ordinate. 711W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 712W

Prison Building Programme Mr Djanogly: No assessment has been made of the potential effects of spending reductions on courts in 22. Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State Northumbria. The Government are committed to ensuring for Justice what plans he has for the future of the that there is an efficient and effective justice system. The prison building programme; and if he will make a impact of potential spending reductions on HM Courts statement. [17833] Service cannot be assessed until the announcement of the outcome of the spending review. Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is committed to Criminal Justice System publishing a Green Paper on Rehabilitation and Sentencing, consulting on our longer term plans for offender Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice management. As a consequence the Ministry will re-evaluate what assessment his Department has made of the its strategy for prison capacity. cost-effectiveness of (a) the criminal justice system and (b) early intervention and prevention of crime Magistrates Courts programmes. [17715]

23. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of Nick Herbert: One of the Ministry of Justice’s principal State for Justice what plans he has to increase the aims is to increase the overall value for money and administrative efficiency of magistrates’ courts. [17835] cost-effectiveness of the system through a range of reform and efficiency measures. For example, the Ministry’s Mr Djanogly: Significant efficiencies have already ‘Transforming Justice’ programme has focussed heavily been made through the implementation of the Criminal on greater system efficiency, which will remain a priority Justice Simple Speedy Summary (CJSSS) programme in over the coming Parliament and through the deficit the magistrates courts. This programme has improved reduction plan. Criminal justice agencies have analytical timeliness of cases and reduced the number of hearings tools to enable the analysis of impacts across the criminal per case. HMCS continues to improve administration justice system. efficiency within the magistrates courts through the There is good evidence for some of the approaches introduction of lean working. taken to reduce crime. However, most of the evidence addresses effectiveness in reducing offending rather than Aarhus Convention cost-effectiveness. The use of payment by results mechanisms to reduce re-offending will ensure that resources are allocated in a more cost-effective way. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what his policy is on the recent draft findings Departmental Drinking Water ACCC/C/2008/33 of the UNECE Aarhus Convention Compliance Committee on compliance by the United Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Kingdom with its obligations under the Aarhus how much his Department spent on bottled water in Convention. [17117] the financial year 2009-10. [17543]

Richard Benyon: I have been asked to reply. Mr Djanogly: The Ministry’s accounting records do We take our commitment to access to justice under not specifically record expenditure on bottled water. To the Aarhus Convention extremely seriously, and have identify relevant expenditure would require examination carefully considered the findings of the Compliance of thousands of individual invoices, many held locally Committee in ACCC/C/2008/33. We believe that the within the courts, prison and probation systems, and law across the United Kingdom is compliant with all would incur disproportionate cost. It has, however, obligations under the Convention, and we continue to been possible to identify expenditure on bottled water look for ways to improve access to justice in the UK. within the Ministry’s headquarters function. The amount In this regard, the Ministry of Justice expects to for the 2009-10 financial year being £1,407. codify the case law on Protective Costs Orders, and The expenditure relates to bottled water used for implement the necessary rule changes by April 2011. water coolers and dispensers. The cost includes sanitisation The Ministry of Justice will also consult shortly on and maintenance of these devices. Water dispensers are whether the factors which the courts should consider gradually being replaced by mains-fed water filtration when deciding whether to dispense with cross undertakings systems across the Ministry’s estate. The Ministry no in damages should be set out in court rules or the longer provides bottled water when catering for meetings guidance, and the detail of those factors. Further discussions or events within its headquarters buildings. are continuing with the judiciary and other interested Legal Aid: Washington: Tyne and Wear parties with regard to the time limits for judicial review. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Courts: Standards Justice how many family legal practices in Washington and Sunderland West constituency providing legal aid Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for services will not be eligible to do so following the recent Justice what recent assessment he has made of the Legal Services Commission tendering round. [17834] potential effects on the (a) caseload, (b) processing times and (c) number of adjournments in courts in Mr Djanogly: Following the quashing order issued by Northumbria of HM Courts Service expenditure the High Court in respect of the tender for family reductions of (i) 10, (ii) 20 and (iii) 30 per cent. [17577] services, the Legal Services Commission is currently 713W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 714W considering the detail of the judgment and its implications, Mr Hayes: We are determined to make it easier for including its grounds for appeal. Therefore, details of companies of all sizes to take on apprentices so that awards for family legal aid are not currently available. more businesses can access the tremendous benefits Probation Service they can bring. That is why we are redirecting £150 million of Train to Gain in 2010-11 to create an additional Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for 50,000 high quality employer-led places. The Skills Funding Justice if he will take steps to end targets for the Agency work with the National Apprenticeships Service, Probation Service for the purpose of increasing the employers, colleges and training organisations in Witham efficiency of that service. [18082] to make additional apprenticeship places available where there is local demand. SMEs are a priority but there is Mr Blunt: The Government believe that the culture of also a need to support large employers who are prepared top-down target setting has got out of hand. We are to recruit and train apprentices. taking steps to reduce the burden of bureaucracy and I am pleased to report that Essex county council is enable the probation service to focus on what really working with the National Apprenticeship Service on makes a difference in cutting reoffending. We will reward an Apprenticeship Training Agency pilot which is testing the achievement of results. out a new way to make it easier for small businesses to We are already piloting ways in which probation take on apprentices in the area and has already created professionals can be allowed to exercise their judgment over 100 new apprenticeship places. and be freed from excessive prescription from the centre. In parallel we are trialling a scaled-down Probation Arms Trade: Exports Trust Rating System with fewer indicators and a greater emphasis on outcomes rather than inputs and processes. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for We will be consulting on a new approach to rehabilitation Business, Innovation and Skills how much the and sentencing, including proposals to introduce payment Government have spent on arms exports in each of the by results, in a Green Paper to be published before last five years; and how much has been spent in each Christmas. This consultation will help inform the design such year on (a) research and development funding, of a replacement assessment model for the probation (b) export promotion assistance through UK Trade service for 2011-12. and Investment and (c) support through the Export Rape: Criminal Proceedings Credits Guarantee Department. [17077]

Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: All research and development spending by Justice what information he holds on the average time the Ministry of Defence (MOD) relates to the UK’s taken between charges being brought and a rape case own requirements, with none dedicated to defence exports. coming to trial in the latest period for which figures are Government expenditure on supporting defence available. [17535] companies seeking to export was delivered by the Defence Export Services Organisation (DESO) of the Ministry Mr Djanogly: The estimated average time taken from of Defence until 31 March 2008, and thereafter by UK charge (or laying of information) to completion of Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation sexual offence cases in the magistrates courts was 50 days. (UKTI DSO). The net operational cost of UKTI DSO This information is based on the latest Time Interval in the last two financial years is as follows: Surveys for March and June 2010. Information is not available for rape cases specifically. £ million In the second quarter of 2010, the average time taken from receipt in the Crown Court to the first substantive 2008-09 14.6 hearing, in cases, where there was a trial, was 14 days 2009-10 15.8 for rape or attempted rape cases. This information is Note: Figures prior to 2008-09 are not available on a comparable based on the Crown Court administrative data and is basis. not directly comparable with the estimates derived from The Export Credits Guarantee Department has the Time Intervals Survey for the magistrates courts. supported defence exports involving a maximum potential Therefore, these statistics cannot be combined to provide liability in each of the last five financial years as follows: a timeliness estimate from charge to the date of trial in the Crown Court. £ million The Ministry of Justice is currently running a project 2005-06 522 to link magistrates courts and Crown Court administrative 2006-07 750 data together to develop a better understanding of case 2007-08 1,026.3 progression through the Criminal Justice system. 2008-09 12.5 2009-10 11.6 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Apprentices: Witham Business Links

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what incentives his Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and Department has put in place to encourage small medium-sized enterprises used the Business Link businesses in Witham constituency to offer service in financial year (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, (c) apprenticeships. [17408] 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10. [17739] 715W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 716W

Mr Prisk: The Business Link regional advisory service, Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. as contracted by the Regional Development Agencies, As managing authority for English 2007-13 ERDF records the number of unique SME service users in programmes, my Department closely monitors the progress each financial year. The following are the number of of these programmes against spend targets and will take start-up and established business service users (excluding any necessary steps to ensure that the remaining unspent pre-starts) in each of the requested financial years: funds are allocated and claimed.

Business Users 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Further Education: Finance Start-ups trading 46,093 52,178 54,806 58,662 < 12 months Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Established 564,241 537,901 678,916 698,246 Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions (a) he had with the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and The centrally operated Business Link national website (b) further education colleges or their representative is managed by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). organisations had with the ONS before its decision to Any questions relating to usage of the website should reclassify general further education as part of central be submitted to HMRC. Government for accounting and borrowing purposes. [18244] Direct Selling Mr Hayes: There were no discussions between the Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for ONS and the Department for Business, Innovation and Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment Skills or representative organisations prior to notification he has made of the merits of requiring organisations of its decision. The ONS is an independent body which not to withhold their number when undertaking classifies organisations as public or private sector bodies telephone marketing. [17666] for the purposes of compiling National Accounts according to international and EU agreed guidelines. The ONS’ Mr Prisk: No assessment has been made by the decisions are based on objective consideration of the Department as this is the responsibility of Ofcom. facts and it is the final arbiter of classification decisions Under the Communications Act 2003, Ofcom’s guidelines for the purpose of National Accounts. require organisations which undertake telephone marketing using automated calling systems to ensure, amongst Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for other things, for valid and accurate Call Line Identification Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has (CLI) to be provided in order that consumers can made of the likely effect on the borrowing ability of determine who called in the event of a silent call, by general further education colleges of the dialling 1471. Ofcom can take enforcement action against reclassification of such colleges as part of central those organisations that persistently misuse networks Government. [18245] or services in this way which causes, or is likely to cause, unnecessary annoyance, inconvenience or anxiety. Ofcom Mr Hayes: The reclassification will mean that colleges published a revised statement of policy, on 10 September are treated differently for National Accounts purposes. 2008, which includes examples of behaviour which may This change is not expected to make any difference to lead them to take enforcement action and have an the financial arrangements of further education colleges ongoing enforcement programme. for the remainder of this financial year (2010-11). We are in discussion with HM Treasury to agree how the http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/ persistent_misuse/amendment/ changes will work in future years but it does not automatically follow that further education colleges should adopt the same control systems as central EU Grants and Loans Government. The reclassification does not in itself limit their ability to borrow money. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has received on the implications for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has the distribution of European Union funds of replacing made of the likely effect on general further education regional development agencies. [17564] colleges of the reclassification of them as part of central Government in (a) 2010-11 and (b) Mr Prisk: BIS has received a number of representations subsequent years. [18246] on the implications of the abolition of the regional development agencies on the distribution of European Mr Hayes: The reclassification will mean that colleges Regional Development Funding, these include three are treated differently for National Accounts purposes. parliamentary questions on ERDF funding in Blackpool; There may be some changes to the way financial information and correspondence relating to convergence funding in from colleges is collected and monitored. However, the Cornwall. change is not expected to make any difference to current accounting practice, standards or financial arrangements Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for the remainder of this financial year (2010-11). The Business, Innovation and Skills what mechanisms he reclassification does not automatically mean that colleges plans to adopt to ensure that remaining unspent funds should adopt the same accounting, budgeting and control allocated to regions of England under the European systems as central Government. The Department is Regional Development Fund for 2007 to 2013 are (a) taking forward urgent work with HM Treasury to agree claimed and (b) allocated. [17693] how the changes will work in practice for the future, 717W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 718W seeking to minimise burdens wherever possible. We will A range of other bodies are being abolished, merged, fully engage representatives from the sector in these or are becoming part of the further education sector. In discussions. addition, as with the three industry training bodies, we are exploring the scope for a statutory levy to be operated Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for by a private sector organisation. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to The Department for Education is responsible for assist further education colleges whose borrowing funding 16 to 18 education; a lot of which is delivered ability is affected by their reclassification as part of by the further education sector. The DfE has confirmed central Government. [18247] that the Young People’s Learning Agency which funds young people’s participation in education and training Mr Hayes: The reclassification does not in itself limit is under departmental review as part of the wider work the ability of further education colleges to borrow on education structural reforms. money. It does not automatically mean that they should In addition the DfE has, in line with plans to improve adopt the same accounting, budgeting and control systems accountability, transparency and efficiency, announced as central Government. The Department is considering proposals to close the British Educational Communications how the changes will work in practice for the future, and Technology Agency and the Qualification and seeking to minimise burdens wherever possible. We will Curriculum Development Agency. fully engage representatives from the sector in these discussions. Higher Education: Ethnic Groups

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent made of the monetary value of loans taken out by estimate is of the proportion of school leavers from general further education colleges in 2010-11; and if he ethnic minority groups entering higher education. will estimate the level of borrowing by those colleges [17774] affected by the decision to reclassify them as part of central Government for accounting purposes in each of Mr Willetts: 44% of English maintained-school pupils the next three years. [18248] from ethnic minority groups, who were aged 15 in the 2003/04 academic year, progressed to higher education Mr Hayes: Information held by the Skills Funding by age 19 in 2007/08. This figure is the latest available Agency estimates new long term loans taken out by estimate based on matched data from the National further education colleges in the academic year 2010/11 Pupil Database, the Higher Education Statistics Agency at £445 million; 2011/12 at £125 million; and 2012/13 at Student Record and the Learning and Skills Council £8 million. Overall borrowing is expected to return to Individualised Learner Record. Progression rates to its current value of £1.3 billion at July 2010 by July higher education for ethnic minority groups are shown 2013. College financial forecasts do not project beyond in the following table. this date. Estimates of the proportions of English maintained-school pupils from ethnic minority groups1 aged 15 in 2003/04 who progressed to higher education2 by age This information relates to 249 of the 251 further 19 in 2007/08 education colleges incorporated under the Further and Ethnic group Progression rate (percentage) Higher Education Act 1992 for which the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is responsible. All ethnic minorities 44 3 Hilderstone College and The Co-operative College do Black 35 4 not receive funds from the Skills Funding Agency and Asian 52 5 are not required to provide it with financial returns. Mixed 33 Other6 42 1 Ethnic minority groups include pupils whose ethnicity was classified as Black, Further Education: Non-departmental Public Bodies Asian, Mixed or Other. 2 Covers UK higher education institutions and English further education colleges. Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 Includes African, Caribbean and other Black backgrounds. 4 Includes Bangladeshi, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani and other Asian backgrounds. Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to 5 Includes White and Asian, White and Black African, White and Black reduce the number of non-departmental public bodies Caribbean and other mixed backgrounds. involved in the further education sector. [17562] 6 Includes Romany Gypsy and other backgrounds. Note: Percentages are based on pupils with known ethnicity and exclude those pupils Mr Hayes [holding answer 18 October 2010]: Iam whose ethnicity information was classified as unknown, refused or missing. Source: replying to this question as Minister responsible for the Matched data from the National Pupil Database, the Higher Education Statistics further education sector. As part of our radical steps to Agency Student Record and the Learning and Skills Council Individualised reform the network of bodies sponsored by the Department Learner Record. for Business, Innovation and Skills, we are planning to Higher Education: Finance significantly reduce the non-departmental public bodies involved in the further education sector. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK Commission for Employment and Skills, Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he providing high level employer engagement and sectoral had with (a) the Secretary of State for Scotland, (b) reach, is under consideration. A review will be completed the Scottish Executive and (c) Universities Scotland by the end of the year of core functions and the most on the Browne Review of higher education funding and appropriate organisational model to deliver a simplified student finance before the publication of the report of skills landscape across the UK. that review. [18083] 719W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 720W

Mr Willetts: Since taking office my ministerial colleagues Midwifery enrolments1 by higher education institution—UK higher education and I have had discussions with the Secretary of State institutions academic year 2008/09 for Scotland and the Scottish Executive on a variety of Higher education institution Midwifery enrolments subjects. Higher education is a devolved matter and I Liverpool Hope University 0 have not met with Universities Scotland. Lord Browne University of the Arts, London 0 and his team took their own decisions about the wide University of Bedfordshire 1,135 discussions they had with interested parties prior to the University of Northampton 110 publication of their independent review. Newman University College 0 Ravensbourne College of Design 0 Local Enterprise Partnerships and Communication Roehampton University 0 Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Rose Bruford College 0 Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has (a) Royal Academy of Music 0 estimated the optimal geographic area to be covered by Royal College of Music 0 a local enterprise partnership (LEP), (b) estimated the Royal Northern College of Music 0 optimal (i) population and (ii) gross domestic product Southampton Solent University 0 of an area to be covered by an LEP and (c) estimated University of Cumbria 25 the optimal number of LEPs to be established. [17946] St Marys University College, 0 Twickenham Mr Prisk [holding answer 18 October 2010]: The Leeds Trinity University College 0 Trinity Laban Conservatoire of 0 development of local enterprise partnerships is a bottom Music and Dance up process. We have made no judgements regarding the University of Worcester 105 optimal geography, population or gross domestic product Anglia Ruskin University 255 of a LEP nor made an estimate on the optimal number Bath Spa University 0 of LEPs to be established. We wish to enable partnerships University of Bolton 0 to better reflect the natural economic geography of the Bournemouth University 465 areas they serve and hence to cover real functional University of Brighton 95 economic and travel to work areas. In addition, we Birmingham City University 240 would expect that partnerships to be of sufficient size to University of Central Lancashire 425 be able to have a strategic oversight of the area covered. University of Gloucestershire 0 Midwives: Training Coventry University 80 University of Derby 0 University of East London 0 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for University of Greenwich 150 Business, Innovation and Skills how many students University of Hertfordshire 235 were enrolled on each midwifery course at each higher University of Huddersfield 60 education institution in the latest period for which University of Lincoln 0 [17592] figures are available. Kingston University 205 Leeds Metropolitan University 0 Mr Willetts: The latest information from the Higher Liverpool John Moores University 55 Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown in the The Manchester Metropolitan 0 table. These figures cover the total number of midwifery University enrolments at each UK higher education institution. Middlesex University 420 Each institution may run more than one course; however De Montfort University 150 HESA data do not allow identification of enrolments at University of Northumbria at 150 course level. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will Newcastle be available in January 2011. The Nottingham Trent University 0 Oxford Brookes University 60 Midwifery enrolments1 by higher education institution—UK higher education institutions academic year 2008/09 University of Plymouth 105 Higher education institution Midwifery enrolments University of Portsmouth 0 Sheffield Hallam University 90 Open University 0 London South Bank University 90 Cranfield University 0 Staffordshire University 45 Royal College of Art 0 University of Sunderland 0 Bishop Grosseteste University 0 College Lincoln University of Teesside 120 Buckinghamshire New University 0 Thames Valley University 445 Central School of Speech and 0 University of the West of England, 205 Drama Bristol University of Chester 120 University of Chichester 0 Canterbury Christ Church 210 University of Westminster 0 University University of Wolverhampton 145 York St John University 0 University of Wales, Newport 0 University College Plymouth St 0 Mark and St John Glyndwr University 0 Edge Hill University 60 University of Wales Institute, Cardiff 0 University College Falmouth 0 University of Glamorgan 60 Harper Adams University College 0 Swansea Metropolitan University 0 University of Winchester 0 Trinity University College 0 721W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 722W

Midwifery enrolments1 by higher education institution—UK higher education Midwifery enrolments1 by higher education institution—UK higher education institutions academic year 2008/09 institutions academic year 2008/09 Higher education institution Midwifery enrolments Higher education institution Midwifery enrolments

University of Abertay Dundee 0 University of Edinburgh 0 Edinburgh College of Art 0 University of Glasgow 0 Glasgow School of Art 0 University of Strathclyde 0 Queen Margaret University, 0 University of Aberdeen 0 Edinburgh Heriot-Watt University 0 The Royal Scottish Academy of 0 University of Dundee 85 Music and Drama University of St Andrews 0 The Robert Gordon University 90 University of Stirling 90 University of the West of Scotland 235 Scottish Agricultural College 0 Glasgow Caledonian University 160 University of Wales, Lampeter 0 Edinburgh Napier University 115 Aberystwyth University 0 Aston University 0 Bangor University 45 University of Bath 0 Cardiff University 100 University of Birmingham 0 Swansea University 65 University of Bradford 195 The Queens University of Belfast 165 University of Bristol 0 University of Ulster 0 Brunei University 0 The Institute of Cancer Research 0 University of Cambridge 0 Writtle College 0 The City University 220 Norwich University College of the 0 Arts University of Durham 0 Stranmillis University College 0 University of East Anglia 105 St Marys University College 0 University of Essex 0 Royal Agricultural College 0 University of Exeter 0 UHI Millennium Institute 0 University of Hull 75 Arts University College at 0 University of Keele 80 Bournemouth University of Kent 0 Conservatoire for Dance and Drama 0 University of Lancaster 0 University College Birmingham 0 University of Leeds 125 Courtauld Institute of Art 0 University of Leicester 0 London Metropolitan University 0 University of Liverpool 0 University of Buckingham 0 Birkbeck College 0 University of Manchester 205 Goldsmiths College 0 Heythrop College 0 Imperial College of Science, 0 University for the Creative Arts 0 Technology and Medicine Leeds College of Music 0 Institute of Education 0 Guildhall School of Music and 0 Drama Kings College London 170 The Liverpool Institute for 0 London Business School 0 Performing Arts London School of Economics and 0 University Campus Suffolk 55 Political Total 9,410 London School of Hygiene and 0 1 Tropical Medicine Covers enrolments of all domiciles, levels and modes of study. Note: Queen Mary and Westfield College 0 Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been Royal Holloway and Bedford New 0 rounded to the nearest five. College Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). The Royal Veterinary College 0 St Georges Hospital Medical School 0 The School of Oriental and African 0 One NorthEast Studies The School of Pharmacy 0 University College London 0 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for University of London (Institutes and 0 Business, Innovation and Skills if he will ensure that activities) the (a) assets and (b) income from assets held by the Loughborough University 0 North East Regional Development Agency remain in University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne 0 the North East. [17520] University of Nottingham 235 University of Oxford 0 Mr Prisk: This Department is currently working with University of Reading 0 One NorthEast to gather a full picture of all their assets University of Salford 275 and liabilities. No decisions have yet been made on the University of Sheffield 55 future of these assets. Government’s aim is to use funding University of Southampton 85 for economic development as effectively as possible and University of Surrey 210 to target resources where they are most needed. University of Sussex 0 Consideration will be given to options for disposal, University of Warwick 0 transfer, or retention of these assets, consistent with the University of York 35 Government’s commitment to localism. 723W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 724W

Public Houses: Rural Areas across the economy, in order to create conditions where investment in construction can start to grow, and more Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for jobs can be created. For example, the Government are Business, Innovation and Skills what information his supporting the construction sector through the ongoing Department holds on the proportion of those pubs in work of the chief construction adviser, Paul Morrell, rural areas which have closed in the last 12 months who is leading the Low Carbon Construction Innovation which were located in areas where affordable housing and Growth Team, which is reviewing opportunities for developments are planned. [17696] the construction industry in a low carbon economy.

Mr Davey: None. Student Loans Company Regional Growth Fund Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State value was of loans made by the Student Loans for Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria his Company in each of the last five years; and what he Department plans to use to determine the outcome of expects the monetary value to be of loans made in each applications to the Regional Growth Fund. [17525] of the next five years. [18250]

Mr Prisk: The Government’s consultation on the Mr Willetts: The information is as follows: Regional Growth Fund sought views on the proposed criteria against which applications for the fund could be Student loans issued by financial year1 judged against. The consultation closed on 6 September Financial year Amount (£ million) and the responses received are now being considered 2005-06 2,465.0 with a view to publishing further information on the 2006-07 2,954.1 design and implementation of the Regional Growth 2007-08 3,905.0 Fund as part of the White Paper on sub-national growth, 2008-09 4,204.1 expected later in the autumn. 2009-10 (provisional) 5,049.1 1 The table covers English domiciled students studying in the UK and EU Research: Standards students studying in England. Source: Student Loans Company. The introduction of tuition fee loans in academic Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for year 2006/07 has contributed to the increase in loans Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he made. made of the effectiveness of the Research Assessment Exercise in evaluating the quality of research Data for 2010-11 out-turn is not yet available. Expenditure for 2011-12 and future years will depend undertaken by higher education institutions. [16639] on the outcome of the spending review which will be Mr Willetts: The Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) announced on 20 October and on the response to the rates the quality of research in higher education institutions Browne review of higher education funding and student in the UK. The Department for Business Innovation finance. This is a substantial report and we shall consult and Skills has not assessed the RAE process. Instead, further on some of the more detailed proposals before the UK Higher Education funding bodies invited Sir Gareth making specific recommendations to Parliament, with a Roberts to lead an independent review of research view to implementing the changes for student entering assessment in 2002. The review made recommendations higher education in autumn 2012. which were incorporated into RAE 2008. The results of the review are available at: Students: Loans http://www.ra-review.ac.uk/reports/roberts.asp Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for Skilled Workers: Construction Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the number of people who took out student Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State loans between 1998 and 2009 who will not have repaid for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what recent the loan in full (a) 25 years after such loans were taken discussions he has had with representatives of the out and (b) at the age of 65 years. [17747] Construction Skills Certification Scheme on the comprehensive spending review; [17557] Mr Willetts: Student loans issued to students who (2) what recent discussions he has had with entered Higher Education in Academic Year 1998/99 representatives of the construction industry on the onwards were issued under the Income Contingent future of the Construction Skills Certification Scheme Repayment (ICR) scheme. Loans can be cancelled if the smart cards. [17558] borrower dies or receives a disability related benefit and because of the disability is permanently unfit for work. Mr Prisk: None. They can also be cancelled on age grounds—at age 65 for entrants pre-2006/07 and after 25 years for entrants Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State from 2006/07 onwards. for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has At the end of April 2010 there were 2.985 million to provide support for the construction industry. [17560] borrowers either English domiciled studying in the UK or EU domiciled studying in England. Of these 0.238 Mr Prisk: The Government’s priority is to address million had repaid their loans in full and 7,000 had their the budget deficit and the challenge of creating growth outstanding sum cancelled. 725W Written Answers19 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 726W

Of the remaining 2.741 million borrowers we estimate consistent data before 2000/01 is not available. The that around 8% will have their outstanding sum cancelled figures are taken from the publication Income Contingent after 25 years or at age 65 and 3% will have their Repayment by Repayment Cohort and Tax Year, available outstanding sum cancelled because of death or permanent from the Student Loans Company website at: disability.We estimate that the remaining 89% of borrowers www.slc.co.uk/pdf/SLCOSP032010.pdf will fully repay. Note that figures cover student loan borrowers regardless of whether they are graduates or not. Figures show Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for averages for those making repayments; borrowers earning Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has below £15,000 per year are not required to repay. made of the average debt repayment by graduates to the Student Loans Company in each financial year Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for since 1998 for which figures are available. [17758] Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made of the likely percentage of graduates who will Mr Willetts: The answer covers English domiciled have paid off their debt from the Student Loans borrowers who studied in the UK and EU students who Company within 30 years. [17759] studied in England. It excludes Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish domiciled students. Mr Willetts: Student loans issued to students who Average amount repaid by Income Contingent student loan borrowers making entered higher education in academic year 1998/99 onwards repayments via HMRC1 were issued under the Income Contingent Repayment Tax year Average repayment (ICR) scheme. Loans can be cancelled if the borrower 2000/01 330 dies or receives a disability related benefit and because 2001/02 420 of the disability is permanently unfit for work. They 2002/03 420 can also be cancelled on age grounds—at age 65 for 2003/04 480 entrants pre-2006/07 and after 25 years for entrants 2004/05 590 from 2006/07 onwards. 2005/062 500 We do not specifically estimate the percentage of 2006/07 610 graduates who will repay their loans within 30 years. 2007/08 720 However, at the end of April 2010 there were 2.985 million 2008/09 790 borrowers either English domiciled studying in the UK 1 The table covers borrowers who received loans as English domiciled students or EU domiciled studying in England. Of these studying in the UK or as EU students studying in England. It relates to 0.238 million had repaid their loans in full and 7,000 repayments made via HMRC as known by SLC at 30 April 2010. Repayments not yet reported to SLC and repayments made directly to SLC will not be had their outstanding sum cancelled. included. Of the remaining 2.741 million borrowers we estimate 2 The repayments threshold was raised from £10,000 to £15,000 at the start of tax year 2005/06, which caused the average repayment to fall. that around 8% will have their outstanding sum cancelled Source: after 25 years or at age 65 and 3% will have their Student Loans Company outstanding sum cancelled because of death or permanent Income Contingent loans were introduced in 1998 disability.We estimate that the remaining 89% of borrowers and the first repayments were made in 2000/01, therefore will fully repay.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 19 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 777 JUSTICE—continued Education Maintenance Allowance (Wakefield Restorative Justice Pilot Schemes...... 781 College)...... 920 Sentencing (Parental Responsibility)...... 791 Foreign National Prisoners ...... 790 Short Custodial Sentences...... 786 Judicial Co-operation (UK and Greece)...... 779 Topical Questions ...... 791 Offender Rehabilitation...... 789 Victim Support ...... 788 Prison Service Staff (Mental Health Awareness).... 784 Vulnerable People (Legal Representation)...... 789 Prisoners (Drug Addiction)...... 782 Vulnerable Women (Alternatives to Custody) ...... 780 Prisoners (Relationship Skills Programmes)...... 784 Young Offenders ...... 778 Prisons (Drug Addiction Services)...... 777 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 19 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 49WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 51WS Agency Workers Regulations 2010...... 49WS Court of Justice of the European Union (Greek Judge) ...... 51WS DEFENCE...... 50WS Defence Training...... 50WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HEALTH...... 51WS AFFAIRS...... 50WS NHS Organ Donor Register...... 51WS Veterinary Products Committee 2009 (Annual Report) ...... 50WS PETITION

Tuesday 19 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .7P Proposed Eviction (Dale Farm and Hovefields, Essex)...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 19 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 643W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Disclosure of Information: Homicide...... 643W Student Loans Company ...... 724W Students: Loans ...... 724W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 713W Apprentices: Witham ...... 713W CABINET OFFICE...... 683W Arms Trade: Exports...... 714W Cancer ...... 683W Business Links ...... 714W Charities: Surveys ...... 684W Direct Selling ...... 715W Childbirth ...... 684W EU Grants and Loans...... 715W Civil Servants: Awards ...... 685W Further Education: Finance...... 716W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 685W Further Education: Non-departmental Public Departmental Manpower...... 685W Bodies ...... 717W Employment: Chester...... 686W Higher Education: Ethnic Groups ...... 718W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 686W Higher Education: Finance ...... 718W Government Departments: Work Experience...... 687W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 719W National Citizenship Service ...... 687W Midwives: Training ...... 719W Older People ...... 687W One NorthEast...... 722W Personal Income ...... 688W Public Houses: Rural Areas ...... 723W Public Houses: Urban Areas...... 689W Regional Growth Fund ...... 723W Social Enterprises: Finance...... 689W Research: Standards...... 723W Social Enterprises: Renewable Energy...... 690W Skilled Workers: Construction ...... 723W Social Enterprises: West Midlands ...... 690W Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Third Sector: Regulation...... 690W Fuel Poverty...... 647W Unemployment ...... 691W Fuel Poverty: Bexleyheath...... 647W Vacancies ...... 691W Geo-engineering...... 648W Renewable Energy...... 648W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 655W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 649W Affordable Housing: Finance ...... 655W Allotments ...... 655W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Anti-Semitism...... 655W AFFAIRS...... 627W Building Regulations: Public Consultation...... 656W Aarhus Convention...... 627W Departmental Equality ...... 656W Agriculture: Litter...... 627W Empty Dwelling Management and Enforced Sale Bees: Diseases ...... 627W Procedure Orders ...... 657W Clothing: Sustainable Development ...... 628W Empty Property: East of England...... 658W Dairy Farming ...... 628W Energy: Housing ...... 657W Dairy Farming: Animal Welfare ...... 628W Enforced Sale Procedure Order...... 659W Dangerous Dogs ...... 629W Homes and Communities Agency: North East ...... 659W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 629W Housing: Construction...... 659W Departmental Work Experience...... 629W Housing: East of England...... 660W Domestic Waste: Recycling ...... 630W Housing: Empty Property ...... 661W Farm Animal Welfare Council ...... 630W Housing: Ex-servicemen...... 661W Food: Imports...... 631W Housing: Newcastle Upon Tyne...... 662W Food: Labelling...... 631W Housing: Peterborough...... 662W Insurance: Statement of Principles...... 632W Housing: Repossession Orders...... 663W Kosher Meat: EU Law ...... 632W Infrastructure: Planning Permission...... 663W Slaughterhouses: Religious Practice ...... 632W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Norfolk ...... 663W Sustainable Development...... 632W Local Government: Procurement ...... 664W Sustainable Development Commission ...... 633W Local Government: Publicity ...... 664W Tobacco ...... 634W Mobile Homes: Regulation ...... 664W Wines ...... 634W Planning Permission ...... 665W Planning: Travellers...... 665W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 617W Registered Social Landlords: East of England ...... 665W Afghanistan: Elections...... 617W Thurrock Borough Council: Accountancy ...... 665W Democratic Republic of Congo: Sexual Offences... 617W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 617W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 650W High Peace Council...... 618W Broadband ...... 650W Kosovo: Orthodox Church...... 618W Departmental Equality ...... 650W Pope Benedict XVI...... 618W Digital Broadcasting ...... 651W Serbia: Kosovo...... 619W Local Broadcasting: Radio...... 651W Local Broadcasting: Television ...... 652W HEALTH...... 693W Museums and Galleries: Fees and Charges ...... 652W Arthritis ...... 693W Olympic Games 2012: Finance...... 652W Arthritis: Health Services...... 693W Regional Screen Agency...... 653W Big Drink Debate...... 693W S4C ...... 653W Dementia ...... 694W Television...... 653W Departmental Manpower...... 695W Television: Finance ...... 654W Departmental NDPBs...... 695W Television: Hearing Impairment...... 654W Departmental Recruitment ...... 696W Television: Licensing ...... 654W Diabetes: Young People ...... 696W Video Recordings Act 1984...... 654W General Practitioners: Finance...... 697W Haematological Cancer...... 697W DEFENCE...... 620W Heart Diseases ...... 698W Armed Forces: Dental Services ...... 620W Insulin...... 699W Ex-servicemen: Prisoners ...... 620W Midwives: Age ...... 699W National Stroke Strategy...... 700W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 654W NHS: Accountability ...... 700W Electoral Register...... 654W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 700W Respiratory Diseases...... 701W EDUCATION...... 667W Smoking...... 701W Bercow Review...... 667W Social Services: Regulation...... 701W Children: Carers...... 667W Strokes ...... 702W Children’s Play: Essex ...... 668W Tobacco: Sales...... 704W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 669W Departmental Manpower...... 669W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 634W Departmental Training ...... 669W Antisocial Behaviour...... 634W Family and Parenting Institute: Finance ...... 669W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 635W Health Education: Sex ...... 670W Antisocial Behaviour: West Midlands ...... 635W History: A-level...... 670W Crime Rate: Thames Valley Police...... 635W Schools: Counselling...... 675W Departmental Manpower...... 636W Equalities Act 2010 ...... 636W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 647W Female Genital Mutilation...... 636W Coal-fired Power Stations: Scotland...... 647W Firearms ...... 637W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued SCOTLAND...... 621W Firearms: Arrests ...... 637W Elections: Scotland ...... 621W Firearms: Children...... 638W Equality and Human Rights Commission: Freedom of Information Act 2000: Compliance .... 639W Scotland...... 622W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 640W Offensive Weapons: West Midlands ...... 641W TRANSPORT ...... 622W Police: Procurement ...... 641W Bicycles ...... 622W Police: Surveillance ...... 642W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 622W Sexual Offences: Convictions ...... 642W Concessions ...... 623W M18: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 623W Maritime and Coastguard Agency ...... 624W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Maritime and Coastguard Agency ...... 624W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 681W Motor Vehicles: Foreign Nationals ...... 624W Claims: Errors...... 681W Railways: Fares ...... 624W Members: Allowances ...... 682W Regional Transport Boards ...... 625W Members: Correspondence ...... 682W Roads: Accidents ...... 625W Members: Telephone Services ...... 683W Roads: Deaths...... 625W Shipping: Inspections...... 625W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 666W Shipping: Pollution ...... 626W Death: Children ...... 666W Thameslink ...... 626W Pakistan: Floods ...... 666W Zimbabwe: Civil Servants...... 666W TREASURY ...... 677W Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland ...... 677W Crown Currency Exchange ...... 677W JUSTICE...... 704W Departmental Manpower...... 677W Aarhus Convention...... 711W Members: Correspondence ...... 678W Alternatives To Prison...... 704W PAYE...... 678W Coroners and Justice Act 2009 ...... 704W Taxation...... 680W Courts: Standards ...... 711W VAT ...... 681W Criminal Justice System ...... 712W Crown Court Sentencing Survey ...... 710W WALES...... 619W David Kelly Death Inquiry...... 705W Internet: Public Expenditure ...... 619W Defamation: Legal Aid ...... 705W Passport Agency: Employment ...... 619W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 712W Departmental Manpower...... 705W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 626W Departmental Work Experience...... 706W Civil Partnerships...... 626W Legal Aid: Washington: Tyne and Wear...... 712W Civil Partnerships: Marriage ...... 627W Magistrates Courts...... 711W Pleural Plaques ...... 706W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 643W Prison Building Programme ...... 711W Child Benefit...... 643W Prison Escapes ...... 706W Construction: Accidents...... 643W Prison Service Staff: Training...... 710W Construction: Public Finance...... 644W Prisoner Activities...... 709W Disability Living Allowance: Medical Prisons: Food...... 707W Examinations...... 644W Probation ...... 708W Equality: Public Finance...... 645W Probation Service...... 713W Industrial Health and Safety...... 645W Prosecutions: Convictions ...... 708W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Graduates ...... 645W Rape: Criminal Proceedings...... 713W Maternity Pay: Adoption ...... 646W Trials: Administrative delays ...... 709W Public Bodies ...... 646W Welfare Benefit Cases: Legal Aid ...... 710W Social Security Benefits: Stirling ...... 646W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Tuesday 19 October 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 777] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Strategic Defence and Security Review [Col. 797] Statement—(Prime Minister)

House of Commons Disqualification (Amendment) [Col. 829] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr Bone)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill [Col. 837] Programme motion—(Miss Chloe Smith)—on a Division, agreed to As amended, further considered

Petitions [Col. 920]

VAT (Charities) [Col. 922] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Railway Industry [Col. 181WH] Historic Towns and Cities [Col. 205WH] Child Trust Fund (Looked-after Children) [Col. 228WH] School Funding (Wyre Forest) [Col. 236WH] Wedgwood Museum [Col. 244WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 49WS]

Petition [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 617W] [see index inside back page]