1750 1750fCOUNCIL.]

NORTH-WEST. Financial Stress of Gascoyne River Settlers. Wednesday, 31st October. 1956. Hon. F. J. S. WISE asked the Minister CONTYENTS. for Railways: Page (1) is he aware that many banana Questions : War service land settlement, swlt growers and planters generally on the Gas- on blocks, Denbarker area ...... 1750 coyne River are experiencing financial North-West, financial stress of Gascoyne worries? River settlers ...... 1750 Water supplies, (a) Calilagr and Miling (2) Does he agree that a considerable ...... part of the contributory causes to the schemes 1750 financial (b) availability to Midland Province 1751 stress of settlers is the fact that Education, retrenchment of teachers on far too many holdings have been made supply 1751 available for settlement on the Gascoyne Railways, renit Increase on workers, Kal- River and consequently have exercised an goorile liner .. -...... 1751 unreasonable draw on river water avail- Bridgetown school, installation of septic able? tanks...... 1751 (3) As the industry on the Gascoyne River is very important as an economic Motion : Licensing Act, to inquire by select part of our North-West and of great value committee ...... 1751 to the State. will he consider having a full Bills: Fisheries Act Amendment, fr. 1751 inquiry made Into methods required to Police Act Amendment (No. 1), Sr., revitalize the industry, and in particular 1752 consider using the agency section of the Licensing Act Amendment (No. 5), 2r. 1752 Rural & Industries flank to help in this Friendly Societies Act Amendment, 2r. 1753 restoration? State Government Insurance Office Act The MINISTER Amendment, 2r...... -. 176t replied: State Trading Concerns Act Amend- (1) Yes. ment, fr...... 1764 (2) This could be a contributory cause; launes Registration Act Amendment, Sr. 1764 but it should. be borne in mind that the Licensing Act Amendment (No. 8), 2r. 1765 position generally on the delta has been Profiteering and Unfair Trading Na- brought about by the deterioration of the vntion, Corn...... 1769 water supply due to drought and through Child Welfare Act Amendment, Ir. 1783 the river not running since the 20th Adjournment, special ...... 1783 February. 1955. However, overall improve- ment in supply is anticipated owing to the installation of a baffle plate. (3) Two senior officers of the Rural & Industries Bank of W.A. have Just com- pleted a, comprehensive on-the-spot survey of the delta's problems and the bank's The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30 report and recommendations are awaited. pim., and read prayers. WATER SUPPLIES. QUESTIONS. (a) Cali giri and Mfiing Schzemes. Hon. A. R. JONES asked the Chief WAR SERVICE LAND SETLEMENT. Secretary: Salt on Blocks, Denbarker Area. In view of the Commonwealth having made extra moneys available to the State Hon. J. MeI. THOMSON asked the Government to assist In the problem of Minister for Railways: unemployment--with a bias that country (1) Is there any evidence of salt appear- water supplies be given consideration- tig on any of the blocks in the Denbarker will he ascertain from the Minister in war service land settlement area? charge of country water. supply if- (1) The Calingiri water supply will be (2) If the answer is in the affirmative- commenced this financial year? (a) How many blocks are affected? (2) A favourable report is obtained (b) How much development work has with regard to quality and quan- tity of water available west of been carried out on these blocks? Miling will- (c) What distance would they be (a) a water supply be made situated from the Narrikup town- available in the township site? of Miling? The MINISTER replied: (b) If the answer to (a) is "Yes" when will a com- (1) No. mencement of a scheme be (2) Answered by No. (1). likely? [31 October, 1956.1 151751

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: RAILWAYS. (1) The Calingiri water supply will not Rent Increase on Workers, Kal goorlie Line. be commenced this financial year. Hon. J. M. A. CUNNlINGHAM asked the (2) (a) Yes. Minister for Railways: (b) Many water supply works with (1) Will he advise the House of the a higher priority have still to actual increase in rent paid by railway be completed and availability 'Workers on the Kalgoorlie lines? of loan funds will eventually determine the date of corn- (2) What opportunity was given to nmencement. workers to object? (3) Dloes he consider that the present ('b) Availability to Midland Province. disparity in rents between Railways and Hon. A. R. JONES asked the Chief Water Supply Department workers in the Secretary: same area Is fair to the railway employees? In October last year the Minister for The MINISTER replied:. Works and Water Supplies met a deputa- (1) The increases range from Is. to 20s. tion known as the Midland Province Water per week. Supply Committee, and promised that (2) The unions concerned have been well Investigations for a source of supply of informed regarding the increases in rentals. water for a comprehensive scheme for the (3) When compared with rents charged area would be made. by private owners and under the Corn- in view of such- znonwealth-State Housing Agreement, the (1) Will be ascertain from the de- W.A.G.R. rents are fair and reasonable. partment what progress has been made in fulfilment of the above? BRIDGETOWN SCHOOL. (2) if a report of work done to date Installation of Septic Tanks. has been prepared? Hon. 0. C. MacKINNON asked the Chief (3) if a report has been prepared Secretary: to in- could it be made available In view of the concern expressed with terested parties? regard to Poliomyelitis in unsewered areas The CHIEF SECRETkARY replied: such as Rockinghamn and Safety Bay, will (1) Investigations indicate that the the Government reconsider its decision re- main source of supply would need to be garding the installation of septic tank sys- from the Gingin Brook. The stream flows temns at the old Bridgetown State school? are being gauged, possible dam sites have The CHIEF' SECRETARY replied: been selected and test boring of founda- Owing to available finance being required tions will comnmence in a few weeks. for the construction of urgently needed Possible provision of individual dams and classrooms, the installation referred to can- catchment areas on farms is being con- not be carried sidered. out at present. (2) A progress report is being prepared. BiLL--FISHERIES ACT AMENDMENT. (3) Answered by No. (2). Introduced by Hon. E. IA. Davies and EDUCATION. read a first time. Retrenchment of Teachers on Supply. MOTION-LICENSING ACT. Hon. J. McI. THOMSON asked the Chief To Inquire by Select Committee. Secretary: HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) (4.45]: (1) How many teachers "on supply" I move- have been retrenched since the 1st July of That a select committee be ap- this year- pointed to inquire into and report upon (a) in the metropolitan area: the Licensing Act, 1911-1956, and to (b) in the country areas? recommend such amendments as may (2) For what reasons were they re - be considered necessary or desirable trenched? in the light of present-day conditions (3) Have these retrenchments Increased and requirements. the size of the classes? I move this Motion because of the dis- (4) Will this retard the proposed exten- satisfaction amongst the public in regard sion of the school-leaving age? to licensing and because of the condition (5) Has any of these teachers been re- of hotels, Particularly in the country, and appointed: if so. how many, and at what some in the city. In addition, over the schools? years--I should say since about 1922-the amendments to the Act have only been of The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: a very minor nature; and it is felt, not None. There are 886 supply teachers at only by a number of people in the state. present employed, compared with 862 on but also by all politicians In this Cham- the 1st July this year. ber and another place that it Is high 1752 1752[COUNCIL.] time the whole Act was overhauled. I be- hotels just outside the radius. They are, leve these reasons are sufficient to war- by road, Just as far distant from the Perth rant a select committee to inquire into this Town Hall, as other hotels which are Act, and also Into the general conduct outside the present radius and are allowed of people who are responsible for its ad- to trade on Sundays. I do not mind nam- ministration. ig the three hotels. They are the Parker- I do not think anybody can say there is ville hotel, the Mundaring hotel and the any doubt that there is room for a big Mundaring Weir hotel. improvement. However that big Improve- The Parkerville hotel is a small one with ment cannot be brought about unless we a small local trade. The Mundaring hotel have some amendment of the Act to is in a similar position; and a nicer type straighten the position out. The licensing of hotel and a better conducted one, I do laws of Australia are far behind those of not know of. the Mundaring Weir hotel other countries, where they appear to be consists of large premises with quite a much more elastic in some ways; much number of bedrooms. In the early days more modified, and much more capable of it was used as a holiday resort. In times coping with the times. For these reasons of bad roads and indifferent motorcars, I feel it is most necessary that a commit- people would go there and stay for the tee be appointed to inquire into this legis- week-end or for a week; but now, with the lation to attempt to bring the Act to what modemn motorcar and present-day roads. might be called an "up-to-date" condition the public travel further distances. If they in order to cope with modern times, modern want to go for a week-end or a week's transport, modern roads, and everything holiday, they go 300 or 400 miles away. concerning licensing. The result is that the trade at that hotel During last year and this year, several has fallen off considerably. minor Bills have been introduced in an attempt to try to do something with the In addition, with the installation of Act. Some have gone through and others, electric pumps at the pumping station In which sought to improve accommoda- that area, quite a number of the water tion, have met with rather a sticky fate. supply employees have been dispensed I was the father of one of the Bills which with, so that their patronage cannot now was introduced into this Chamber, and be relied on. All that the hotel exists on the majority of members who spoke on are a few forestry workers and one or two that Bill commended me on its introduc- employees of the Water Supply Depart- tion, but agreed that something larger ment who look af ter the weir and the should be done to amend this Act. For electric pumps. There is also the casual those reasons I move the motion standing trade brought about by the visitors to in my name. Mundaring Weir. -Members can imagine that the licensee of that hotel Is having On motion by the Chief Secretary, de- rather a hard struggle. bate adjourned. Mundaring Weir is a tourist resort; and as a result, I believe the hotel should be BILL,-POLICE ACT AMENDMENT given-the right to trade on Sunday. Not (No. 1). only would Sunday trading help the Bead a third time and Passed. licensee, but It would encourage tourists to make the trip to Mundaring to have a BILL-LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT look at the weir, and their day would be (NO. 5). made the more enjoyable by having a few Second Reading. drinks during the session. HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) [4.501 The Bill would also bring within the in moving the second reading said: When, Sunday trading provisions of the Act the during the 1953 session, an amendment hotel at Rottnest Island. As members was made to the Act to legalise Sunday know, Rottnest Island is a tourist resort;, trading, the reasons for its introduction and at present the hotel there Is, tin- were that right throughout the country officially, taking advantage of the hours on areas, what were known as unofficial ses- Sunday. I understand that those who con- sions were taking place. These sessions trol the hotel feel that the right to trade created a problem for the department and, during the official hours on Sunday should to some extent, the public. The basis of apply to their hotel, and this would assist the old bona fide clause was used in defin- the tourist facilities on the island. Ing the distance from the metropolitan To my knowledge these are the only area where Sunday trading could operate, premises which would be Covered by this but at the time no consideration was given amendment, which provides for a distance to the fact that certain licensed Premises of 20 miles by the nearest road or sea which were in the country came within route. These hotels would come within the orbit of the 20 m~dles radius from the the ambit of Sunday trading. Another Town Hall, Perth. feature regarding the three small hotels It has since come to light that within in the hills area which is causing concern that radius there are three small hotels to the police is that one of the hotels near that are in similar circumstances to other to them, which conducts Sunday trading, is (31 October, 1956.1 175375 the Sawyers Valley hotel on the Great B]ILL-FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT Eastern Highway. I expect quite a number AMENDMENT. of members have passed that hotel on Sunday afternoons. The parking problem Second Reading. there is a worry to the police. it Is get- Debate resumed from the previous day. ting to the stage where it is a hazard. There are no parking facilities for the HON. 3. G. HISLOP (Metropolitan) cars that go there on Sunday afternoons. (5.0]: Mr. Watson put up a very good case for the pharmacists in their apposition to Hon. 0. Bennetts.: You want a police- this measure. There is a standard to be man to park the traffic. maintained and a principle on which phar- Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Even with a macies have been conducted for many policeman parking traffic, the situation years within the State. There has always would still be hazardous on Sunday after- been an attempt throughout Australia to noons. I know that the Police Depart- maintain the same principle, and that is ment is very concerned about the posi- that only a Qualified pharmacist shall own tion, and so am 1. It has become a death and conduct the business of a pharmacy. trap as far as the motoring public are Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Doesn't that concerned. When a person is driving apply to a. friendly society dispensary? through Sawyers Valley he does not know Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: NO; and it cannot when someone is going to dive out of the apply, because even if shops, such as em- huge number of cars there. A man might poriums, desire to have a pharmacy within be driving along at 30 miles an hour and their areas they must lease the land to run right into it. If this amending Bill the pharmacist and not employ him, Those were passed, it would split up the big con- pharmacies which do exist within em- gregation at Sawyers Valley. In addition. poriums throughout the Commonwealth I do not see any reason why these three are leased as shop areas to a trained and small1 hotels should not have the same fully Qualified pharmacist to conduct. That facility for trading on Sunday as one so has been the position throughout Australia adjacent. for as long as I can remember, and I have What happens in these areas is that the been closely associated with the pharma- People from Parkerville, Mundaring and ceutical trade, because my lather was a Mundaring Weir like to have a drink on Pharmacist for many years in Victoria, Sunday Just the same as do the people at Like pharmacists, I deplore the fact that Sawyers Valley. So they gather together the march of medicine has taken away and go to Sawyers Valley, where they do from them so much of the old skilled dis- their Sunday drinking. Some of them get pensing until today a good deal of the work very annoyed if the hotelkeepers in these is only handing out already made-up drugs places will not give them a drink on Sun- which are prepared by large companies. day, which they cannot do legally anid But It Is only a natural course of events which they are not game to do because because of the complex drugs which are they are pretty well policed. being used in the care of the sick. Never- If people are refused a drink at these theless the principle is still maintained three hotels, they feel they have been that pharmacists shall own and conduct treated rather unfairly, so they go down their businesses. to Sawyers Valley for some of their mid- Let me put forward what I think is one week and Saturday-afternoon drinking, of the most important reasons for main- and these hotels lose that trade. It is taining that Principle: A pharmacist is and rather strange that each of the hotels Is must always be a man who stands between being run by a widow. I myself call them the medical profession and the patient. No the three merry widows. They are very matter how careful one may be there is good types of ladies and are doing aLgood always the possibility of some written error job. occurring in a prescription. Hon. Sir Charles Lathanm: It Is difficult parliament would be doing the proper to understand the writing of many doctors. thing by giving them the right to trade on Ron. J. 0. HISLOP: That may be an- Sundays. This would alleviate the traffic other reason why the pharmacists are position at Sawyers Valley, and it would there; they are trained to understand the assist the people who run these small writing of doctors. hostelries to get a living and keep their premises in good condition. The Bill is The Chief Secretary: They would need only a small one, and does not involve a to be trained to do that. huge argument-it is only a. matter of fair- Hon. J. G. HISLOP: It is essential that ness. I trust the House will pass the there should always be a second look at measure without too much opposition. I a prescription because no matter how good move- one Is there is always the possibility of That the Bill be now read a second error. In these days it would make all the difference-when we are dealing with time. points of a milligramme or a number of on motion by the Chief Secretary, debate inilligrammes-if the Point were left out adjourned. or put in the wrong place, particularly 1754 l'754[COUNCIL.]

when handling tablets. We have always once the dispensaries were shut; that felt safe because between us and the might extend over the whole week-end. patient there is the trained pharmacist to The fact that the friendly societies claim have a second look at the prescription. that now they are taxed they should be Hon. E. M. Davies: The pharmacists given the same rights to trade with the in the friendly society dispensaries are public does not carry much weight with trained and registered, too. me. Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: Let mue go further Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: Why? and give a second reason why I think the principle should be maintained: In addi- Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: Because the ~tion to what I have already described as friendly societies, since the establishment one of their main services to the com- of the national health service, have had munity, there Is always in the mind of a great expansion in their business; and the pharmacist who owns his business they are not taxed heavily on it. An the knowledge that he is performing an agreement has been reached between the individual and personal service to those friendly societies, the pharmacists and who deal from him. There are many the Commonwealth Government, and the pharmacists who are open in the evenings tax is not a heavy one and, even when -particularly in the country districts and they are taxed, it is as a non-profit the outer suburban area-and they go to organisation. So they are not competing no end of trouble to see that the needs of in the same way as they would be if they their public are met. They will come back were registered as pharmacists. to their premises at night or on a, week- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Of co urse end to supply whatever drugs may be they will pay additional tax if thy business necessary for those who are sick. is thrown open. Under the friendly societies' arrange- ment, the pharmacist does not own or Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: Onily on their control the business: he is a paid servant additional business and not on the busi- of the societies, with the result that if ness they do with their members, Even the dispensary is situated in a country then the amount they would pay would district, or in an outer suburban area, the not be the same as that of the registered societies would find themselves liable for Pharmacist. Apart from. that aspect, I a good deal of overtime if their phaxrma- think we are getting away from the cists were to adopt the same attitude as principle-that we should always see that those who own their businesses. If the the registered, pharmacy is a business public realised that they could obtain owned and conducted -by a registered medicines after hours from the friendly pharmacist-and we must at all costs en- society dispensaries the societies would deavour to maintain that principle re- not remain long in business because the garding the Supply of drugs and medicines overtime payments would be too heavy. to the public. .Hon. E. M, Davies: There are only Let us say that we did agree to this Bill six in the State. and we allowed the friendly societies to Hon. J, 0. HISLOP: The friendly open up In opposition to chemists. That societies have always established their would destroy the principle at once. The dispei--aries in the more populous areas. moment we destroy it, there is no reason and what I have said about their inability at all why emporiums should not be given to serve after hours was brought very the same rights as the friendly societies-- forcibly before the notice of members a Small number of people who have banded when Mr. Teahan applauded them for together to form themselves into a society. closing earlier than other pharmacies. The emporiums could say. "You have For obeying the given this right to the friendly societies, Hon. J, D. Teahan: so why cannot we have chemist shops law. I said. within our own Premises and be able to Hon. J. G. ISLOP: No pharmacist engage a chemist as a paid servant?" Be- breaks the law. We must realise that it fore long we would find that most of the is essential that an individual receives the stores would be asking for the same thing. drugs he requires, because illness is no respecter of time. So I could never see Years ago we made quite certain that no the friendly society dispensaries being on more pharmacies were to be opened in the same basis as the registered pharma- stores with the pharmacist being a paid cists' because the friendly society servant of the store. They have got over pharmacists are paid servants. that law to a certain extent by leasing certain areas of land within the store to Hon. H. K. Watson: They are nine to pharmacists to conduct pharmacies within five men. the buildings. But those pharmacists are Hon. J. 0. HISLOF: Yes. If the directly responsible to the trading public. friendly societies were to expand their whereas, if they were paid servants of the business throughout the State, to the stores, they would treat it as a purely detriment of the registered pharmacists. impersonal business rather than an inti- we might reach the stage of not being mate and personal one. Pharmacists in able to obtain necessary medical supplies this community have diligently given [31 October. 1956.] 1755 personal attention to the sick and we should Federal Parliament on the 22nd July, 1952. always endeavour to maintain that prin- The following is a summary of the recom- ciple in this State. mendations made in this report:- That the taxable income of a RON. L. A. LOGAN (Midland) (5.11]: friendly society dispensary should be One would almost think that this was an deemed to be 10 per cent. of- attempt to amend the Pharmacy and (1) amounts received from the Poisons Act rather than the Friendly Commonwealth under the Societies Act. Pharmaceutical Benefits Act Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: That is what every- and special charges pre- body is talking about. scribed by that Act, in re- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: The object of the spect of the supply- of Bill is to allow the friendly society dis- Pharmaceutical benefits; pensaries to supply and sell medicines and (2) amounts received from the appliances to persons other than members, Commonwealth under the and the reason for the amendment is the National Health Services Act changed conditions, in that dispensaries in respect of the supply of now have to pay tax. Friendly societies medicines. etc., to pensioners; have always endeavoured to provide assist- (3) Proceeds of sale or supply of ance for their members by a spirit of medicines or other goods to self-help and co-operation. Persons who are not members Hon. H. L,. Roche: Do they make much of the friendly society. money out of it? Hon. L. A. LOGAN: NO; it is a, co-opera- That report was presented in 1952, and benefit of mem- It has only now been Put into effect. The tive effort, purely for. the friendly society dispensaries in Western bers.' Australia are the only ones in Australia Hon. H. K. Watson: That is the point I that are being taxed tinder the old con- made. ditions; that is, they are not allowed to Han: L. A. LOGAN: They are controlled trade freely with the public, but yet come by Section '7 of the Friendly Societies Act under the taxation laws covering the dis- and that section states- pensaries in the other States which are goods to members of Societies may be registered under allowed to supply this Act to provide by voluntary sub- the public: scriptions of *or levies upon members If we in this Chamber deny the friendly thereof, with or without the aid of societies the right to trade freely, we shall donations:- be doing them a great disservice. It seems (1) For the relief or maintenance strange that members. would like to see of members, their husbands, such dispensaries in this State-the only wives, parents, step-parents, ones in Australia in that category-trying children step -children, to work under those conditions. adopted children, or kindred, Hon. H. K. Watson: If they do not trade in infancy, over the age of with the public they do not pay any tax. sixty years, in widowhood, sickness, or other infirmity. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: They do pay tax, bodily or mental, or any and that is Just the point. natural state of which the probability may be calculated Hon. H. K. Watson: If they do not trade by way of average. with the Public they do not pay tax. (2) For providing medical attend- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: The point is they ance for, and for- dispensing are paying tax, and that is why this Bill medicines to, any persons is before the House. mentioned in the last preced- ing subsection. The Chief Secretary: The hon. member not know the position. The principal Act is controlled by a regis- apparently does trar and the friendly societies are not pre- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I am afraid so. I mitted to do anything unless the registrar can tell the hon. member what they are has given his authority. Paying in taxation. This matter of taxation was the sub- Hon. J. M. A. Cunningham: They do ject of inquiry by a committee whose find- not pay tax on all lines. ings were published in 1952 and were then presented to the Commonwealth Govern- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I have read the ment; and I intend to read a portion of recommendations and they are being car- that report. The members of the com- tied out. Before making this request the mittee were Mr. S. B. Holder, acting as friendly societies wrote to the Federal chairman, Mr. J. A. L. Gunn, a recognised Treasurer asking him to relieve them from authority on taxation, Mr. J. W. Hughes, taxation. I have here a copy of the letter Mr. R. S. Turner and Mr. Gordon Wallace, which was sent and the reply which was Q.C. This report was submitted to the received. A memorandum containing some 1756 1755COUNCIL.] of the points at issue was enclosed in the freely with the public. Because of such letter to the Federal Treasurer, and it lack of information, it is quite easy to was sent on the 16th February, 1956. understand that even the Federal Treas- In effect, it said that these dispensaries urer was not aware of the true facts in this are affected by Division 9 (A) of the State. and he did not exclude the friendly Friendly Societies Dispensaries 1955 Society dispensaries in this State when amendment of the Income Tax Act, in an amendment was made to the taxing common with all other friendly societies' Act. To say that the friendly society dis- dispensaries in Australia with which, how- pensaries do not pay any tax is entirely ever, as will be seen, they have nothing wrong. The fact is that they are paying in common. The material part of Division tax, and that is the reason why they have 9 (A) is as follows:- asked for the introduction of this Bill. Where a friendly society dispensary. It may be recalled that over many years as defined by Section 91 of the such dispensaries in Queensland and South National Health Act, 1953, is an ap- Australia have had open trading;, in New Proved Pharmaceutical chemist for South Wales, since 1945; in Victoria, from of that Act, 101 per last year; and in Tasmania, over the last the purposes two or three years. It was contended that centum of the aggregate of the fol- if this Bill Is passed, friendly society dis- lowing amounts shall be deemed to pensaries will be established all over the be taxable income derived by that place and will put existing chemist shops friendly society dispensary- out of business, or ruin them to a great (a) amounts received by the degree; and, further, that young chemists friendly society dispensary will be prevented from starting their own from the Commonwealth businesses. under the National Health Those two arguments are piffle; because Act, 1953, in respect of in the first place, there is no amendment pharmaceutical benefits; and being made to the Pharmacy and Poisons (b) grass proceeds received by Act which controls the employment of the friendly society, dis- chemists. If Dr. Hislop and Mr. Watson pensary from the sale or were to reed the Act they would find out supply of medicines and what it contains, and that the friendly other goods sold or supplied societies cannot start new dispensaries, in the ordinary course of busi- The Act applies to the friendly society dis- ness, not including amounts pensaries Just the same as to anybody else. received from a friendly The standard of skill of pharmaceutical society for the supply of employees is also covered by that Act. benefits to members of that which applies to the friendly society dis- society. pensarles in the same way as it applies The difference is that in Western Aus- to the ordinary chemist shop, where one tralia the friendly society dispensaries recognised pharmaceutical chemist must have been dealing exclusively with their be employed for every three persons en- members and dependants, and they can- gaged in the business. Where does the not deal with the general public. They lowering of standard conmc in? it is just have no right of open trading. There has Piffle to talk like that! been no change in the status since the first The Chief Secretary: We have heard a friendly society dispensary was established lot of that lately. in Western Australia prior to the turn of Hon. H. K. Watson; Can you refer me the century. The letter went on to say- to any section of the Act to stop the dis- It is contended that friendly pensaries from extending? societies' dispensaries in Western Aus- tralia should not have been Included Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Yes, under Part VI. in Division 9 (A) of the 1955 amend- Hon. H. K. Watson: That refers to a ing Act, unless and until they had company. the right to trade with the general Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It is the same thing, public. a company or a friendly society. It Is all if the position of the friendly societies in one. Western Australia had been known they Hon. H. K. Watson: It Is not, would have been excluded by a suitable Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I say it applies to amendment to the Act. friendly societies aS well. I might ask: Having read the debates which took Where are the friendly societies going to place in the Victorian and New South get the money to start up new dispensaries? Wales Parliaments I feel that those in The only possible way would be from the authority in the Eastern States were very management fund of those societies. Let lacking in their knowledge of the position me inform members that the management in this State, because when a similar fund of every friendly society in this State Bill to this was before the Victorian House is empty. The societies have to rely upon of Parliament, It was stated that there the profits of other portions of their busi- were only two such dispensaries in West- ness. They have to wait five years before ern Australia and they were bath trading they can apply to the Registrar of [31 October, 1956.] 1757?

Friendly Societies to use the credit in the State to lobby the members of this Par- funeral benefits and similar funds to Pay liament with a view to defeating this mea- the debit in the working expenses account. sure. It is difficult to understand the rea- Another method would be for 1,000 persons son for that, when It is sought to enable In the area concerned to buy debentures six friendly society dispensaries to trade and start a new dispensary; but that is with the public. What are the chemist most unlikely. shops afraid of? What is more, quite a number of the Hon. C. H. Simpson: Socialisation. chemists who today own their businesses were, at some time or other, employees of Hon. L. A. LOGAN: How would sociali- friendly societies' dispensaries. They were sation come about with the giving of this excellent training grounds for the chemists right to six friendly society dispensaries? and gave them a far better experience as That is piffle again. pharmaceutical chemists than they could Hon. Sir Charles Latham: We do not get in an ordinary chemist shop; because like that word. the ordinary chemist might cater for three or four doctors practising nearby, whereas Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Rather than op- the chemist in a friendly society dispens- Pose this measure, members should be do- ary serves many other doctors as well as Ing everything they can to assist the doing its ordinary business. The chemists friendly societies as a whole. I think in those dispensaries are given an oppor- we can be proud of the part they are tunity to learn the profession better, and playing in the social service life of our they are more fitted to start their own community. -business. Hon. H. K. Watson: Hear, hear! Hon. J. 0. Hislop: That is piffie. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Not only in West. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It Is not. It is a ern Australia, but throughout the world. fact. Some of the chemists in the city I agree with Mr. Watson that this Is pro- today started their businesses after obtain- bably the best form of social service we ing their diplomas in friendly society dis- can have, because It is one in which the pensaries. Is there any piffie about well person pays for the sick person. That the fact that there must be one registered was the -original intention of the scheme; employee to every three others? That Is and had all social services been introduced In the Act. In all, there are only six on the same lines, this country would be friendly society dispensaries in this State. better off. it was said by Mr. Watson that there were Hon. H. K. Watson: I agree entirely. 248 chemist shops here. Hon. J. 0. Hislop: The friendly society Hon. L. A. LOGAN: So while I disagree dispensaries are supplying only a small with members on some matters, I agree percentage of the public's needs. with them on others. An attempt has been made to bring clubs dispensing liquor Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Quite a fair per- into the same category as dispensaries centage. serving the general public. Hon. J. 0. Hislop: What percentage The PRESIDENT: Order! This measure would they supply? deals with friendly society dispensaries. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It was felt by Mr. Hon. L. A. LODGAN: I am making refer- Watson that these six dispensaries could ence to part of a speech made by a mem- wipe out the 248 chemists in business in ber last night, and I think I have the this State, and he is worried that they right to reply to what he said. should be given the right to trade with the general public in other lines. The PRESIDENT: We are dealing with Hon. H. K. Watson: That they might friendly societies. affect the other 174 in the metropolitan Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Last night that area. member made a comparison between clubs Hon. L,. A. LOGAN: Fancy saying that and friendly societies, and surely I am six dispensaries could affect the business entitled to reply to what he said! He of the other 171 claimed that if we were going to allow The Chief Secretary: There are fewer friendly society dispensaries to trade with than six in the metropolitan area. the general public that would, in effect, be the same as giving a club which has a Hon. L. A. LOGAN: There is one of the liquor licence the right to serve the gen- six in Kalgoorlie. eral public. As a matter of fact, clubs Hon. J. M. A. Cunningham: He is a do serve visitors. chemist in Boulder, and a special Act of Hon. N. E. Baxter: Not openly. Parliament was passed to enable him to start up. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Of course it is done Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It was deemed neces- openly! sary for the Federal President of the Hon. H. K. Watson: Could you clear up Pharmaceutical Guild of Australia and an- a point for me? I understood you to say other member of that guild to come to this that friendly societies, even under the 1758 1758COUNCIL]1

National Health Act, only serve their own of this loss on trading this members in Western Australia. Is that council must pay taxation on the position? behalf of its dispensary of £96 6s. for the period under review. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Yes. Under the Act they are not allowed to serve anybody else. 3. If we now examine the income It was also stated by Mr. Watson that and expenditure account for the we might as well allow the grocery busi- above council, excluding all nesses to come into the picture and start trading from the dispensary, but up in competition with chemists. Those of course including the loss sus- are strange words when it is realised that tained by the dispensary, then if any body of men has entered into com- the overall picture results in an petition with other businesses it is the excess income over expenditure chemists! Just walk through a chemist of some £203. Note, however, shop and have a look at the different lines that this £203 is obtained from that chemists are carrying today; and all members' contributions. Taxa- in opposition to other businesses in the tion allocation for the Quarter is area that have been established for a good 10 Per cent, of £93,209 at 6s. in the £ and amounts to £96 6s., many years. and thus leaves this council a The Chief Secretary: They want an open working income over expendi- go to infringe on other businesses. ture of only £107 approx. for Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I do not blame them the three months. one Iota. But if they want that right, why Fancy any dispensary getting down to such should they deny it to somebody else? figures as that! The hon. member said Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Some of them these dispensaries were not paying taxa- sell fancy goods and crockery. tion. Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Crockery, outlary Hon. H, L, Roche: How many thousands and many other goods. They have become of people would they be prescribing for? Johnny Ailsorts. I am not denying them others Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I do not know the this right, but they should not deny exact figure, but I do not think it Is neces- the opportunity to trade in competition. sary to know. The Chief Secretary: They should be Hon. H. K. Watson: Does that £3,000 consistent. represent total sales to members or to Hon. L. A. LO0GAN: I said that I would persons other than members? give some figures in regard to taxation paid by dispensaries. I have here a trading Hon. L. A. LOGAN: They are only sup- account of a dispensary covering the three plying members. months period from June to September, Hon. H1. K. Watson: The Act says that 1956. The figures appear in a letter from goods supplied to members are to be ex- the Fremantle United Friendly Societies cluded. Council to the United Friendly Societies Council of W.A. in which the latter was Hon. L. A. LOGAN: They are paying 10 asked to do something about the matter. per cent. overall taxation and the dispen- The letter contained a statement of saries here are the only ones paying that accounts, including the dispensary trading tax. In the other States the dispensaries account and profit and loss account, and have been allowed to trade freely. the council's income and expenditure Hon. H. K. Watson: I think the office account. The letter contains the follow- boy wrote that letter. ing: Hon. L. A. LOGAN: No. Bearing in mind that the amend- Hon. H. K. Watson: They have not had ment to the Income Tax Act passed by a demand for the tax. the Commonwealth Government in November, 1055, imposes income tax on Hon. L. A. LOGAN: They have. friendly society dispensaries in the The PRESIDENT: Order, please! manner of 10 per cent. of gross income at the rate of 6s. in the £, but speci- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: As I said earlier, they fically excludes from taxation mem- wrote to the Commonwealth Treasurer and bers' contributions, It is desired to draw asked to be relieved of this taxation before your attention to the following from seeking this amendment. Sir Arthur our accounts enclosed:- Fadden replied that In view of the fact that trading account the effect of taxation on dispensaries was 1. The dispensary yet unknown, he was not prepared at that shows for the period 1/7/56 to stage to Initiate any action to amend the 30/9/56 gross sales to the value Income Tax Assessment Act. Is that not of £3,209 8s. Gd., and a gross sufficient proof that they are paying taxa- profit of approx. £895. tion? The Federal Treasurer himself ad- 2. The dispensary profit and loss mits they are doing so. account, however, shows a very different picture, and results in Hon. C. H. Simpson: When was that? the dispensary showing a net Hon. L. A. LOGAN: in February of this loss of nearly £301, yet in spite year. 131.October, 1956.] 175975 Ron. A. F. Griffith: What is the amount in Western Australia must be pretty well. of member's contributions? bankrupt, and the way to get them out of their dimoiulties is to allow them to trade Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It is 4s. per quarter. as ordinary chemists. Apparently the vol- Hon. A. F. Griffith: What is it in this umne of business for the six societies will case? then be so great that they will be again Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I think it was £613 on the high road to prosperity. odd. There is a necessity for this Act to In what I assume to be a, circular letter be amended. which was sent to me, and which pur- Hon. A. 1F. Grimfth: What were the ports to come from the friendly societies, wages? it Is claimed that- The PRESIDENT: Order!I The dispensaries represent, on a basis of four persons to a family, no Hon. L. A. LOGAN: When I had a look less than 10 per cent, of the entire at the report of the debate which took. population. place in the other States I found that the only objection to the amendment of the If six dispensaries, with that field to Act was that dispensaries were not paying trade in. are in the condition Mr. Logan taxation. That was the only reason offered would have us believe they are, it looks for opposing the measure: but now that to me as though there is a pretty poor opposition has gone, because they are pay- management of their business affairs as ing taxation. Sureiy the six dispensaries distinct from their pharmaceutical work. in this State are not going to be the only Legislation in connection with the health ones left paying this taxation! of the people in this State has always The Chief Secretary: That is the reason been designed to preserve and improve the measure was defeated previously. the Standard and I cannot see that if we Ron. L. A. LOGAN: It is unthinkable are to develop the Idea of multiple stores that these six dispensaries should be the -whether it is Boots Limited, which is only ones paying taxation under these prevented under the Act, or the friendly condit~ons. societies--we can fall gradually to reach Hon. H. L.. Roche: What do they pay? the stage where everything will be dished Up out of a stock-pot of some kind of Is It £96? mixture. I understand there are only eight Hon. L. A. LOGAN: That is only the qualified chemists employed by the six figure relating to one of them for one friendly societies In this State: and if the quarter. These dispensaries are not work- figures are correct-they may be gilding ing at a profit; they exist for the benefit the Illy a bit-those eight persons are try- of the members. ing to provide for the needs of 10 per Ron. A. F. Griffith: Tell us what the cent. of the population, or over 60,000 wages are. People, and it just cannot be done if they are to give to the work the care and atten- H-on. L. A. LOGAN: I may even be able tion which we believe those dealing with to tell the hon. member that. the health of the public should give to Hon. A. F. Griffith: Ut should be in the their work. profit and loss account. If this measure were passed, I do not Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It was £943 3s. 4d. think it would be long before we were for the quarter. That figure relates to asked to give these organisations rester salaries in the dispensary itself. In addi- latitude in respect of their trading, and tion, there are expenses for cleaning, iight- then we could look forward to the eventual ing and the rest of it. These dispensaries elimination of the private chemist. The exist for the benefit of their members and Private chemists will be placed at a still are non-profit-making organisations. If greater disadvantage; and in the end the Bill is not agreed to it means that there will be no scope for the qualified one of two things will have to happen. young man who does not want to work either for the Government or for a friendly Hon. J. M. A. Cunningham: Are they society as an employee, except in the taxed as a non-profit organisation? smaller country towns. How many young Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I have given that people will be attracted to the profession information twice. If this measure is by a prospect such as that? not agreed to, the friendly societies must either increase members' contributions-- Ron. L. A. Logan interjected. which are already high enough, by the Hon. H. L. ROCHE: Our supersonic time they pay not only for medicines but friend here, who can see a socialist or for other health services as well-or else communist under every bush, should give increase the cost of medicines. Surely further thought to some of the ideas he none of us want that. I support the Bill. has expressed here today. I understand that per capita there are fewer people HON. H. L. ROCHE (South) [5.43J: per pharmacy In this State than in the Mfter listening to Mr. Logan, It would Eastern States, and I believe the differ- appear to me that the friendly societies ence is considerable, which must have 1760 176[CQUNIIOL.,

a big effect on the position of the private four in the major country towns, the effect chemist here as compared with his counter- on the 238 private chemists in the State part in the more populous States. would be infinitesimal. While Mr. Logan gave us some informa- Hon. H. K. Watson: The private tion about the effects of taxation on one chemists have not behind them the vast friendly society, it seems to me that if the funds of the friendly societies. tax was imposed on these organisations as the result of an agreement between them Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: I agree that and the Federal Treasurer, they have little this is the type of legislation which should justification for using that as an argument be on a national basis under the national why this House should agree to extend social services legislation. in the City of their trading in this State. I oppose the Fremantle there are a number of chemists. second reading. but at night it is often difficult to get an urgent prescription made up. HON, F. K, H. LAVERY (West) (5.50): Hon. A. F. Griffith: How would the I did not intend to take part In the de- friendly societies Improve that situation? bate until r. Watson spoke in opposition Hon. F. ft. H. LAVERY: I am only to the rnvasulre last night. I feel that his saying that Dr. Hislop's remark in this advisers were parochial and advised him regard is 'open to correction and that only on their side of the case. I was sur- plenty of chemists are ndt available when prised to bear Mr.. Simpson say, a few required. in the country towns the posi- minutes.- ago, that the chemists were frightened of sociallsation because, of all tion is different- the people In this State, no one should Ron. A. F. Griffith: H-ow would the know-better than he that the members of friendly societies Improve the position? the friendly societies are members not only Hon. P. Rt. H. LAVERY: That is not of the Labour Party but of the community Intended. We simply ask that they be as a whole and probably Just as many of allowed to trade with'the public so as to them oppote Labour as support it. Social- 'Increase their turnover and make a profit Ism does not come into the matter at to assist them to pay the tax which was all. not previously imposed on themn. This 6s. The friendly societies in this State were in the £- forced Into seeking this amendment be- Hon. J7. G. Hislop: That is only on 1.0 cause the Federal Treasurer told them to per cent. of the turnover. approach Parliament and have the re- Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY; It is 6s. in quested amendments made to the Act so the £ an 10 per cent. of the turnover, but that they could trade with the public and not on the profit, and that must be taken no one knows, better than does the Federal into consideration. I repeat that the Treasurer, what he is talking about in this Private chemists compete with many other regard. Dr. Hislop said that the services types of business now. of the private chemist to the public were excellence personified. I agree, but the Hon. J7.G. Hislop: As the dispensaries same applies to the friendly societies. The will if they are given this right. dispenser in a friendly society is a paid Hon. P. Rt. H. LAVERY: They already servant of the Organisation, but so are dispense baby foods and so on and would Many chemists in chemist shops paid continue to do so as regards the general servants of the owners of those shops. public Instead of supplying only their A lot of the dispensary service under the own members. The Federal Act compels national health service is through the them to dispense to the public. Oppo- friendly societies because the Federal Act sition to this measure is unwarranted be- In licensing those societies specifies that cause the members of the friendly they shall dispense to the public. It is societies are of all political creeds and said that the private chemists are fright- religious beliefs, and they are people who ened of the opposition by the friendly have banded together in a common cause societies. Mr. Rodho was outspoken in his to keep down the cost of medical social castigation of the management of the services to the lowest possible level. The friendly societies but, if he looks at the friendly societies, for that reason, are chemist shops he will see that apparently doing a man-sized job as far as this State they are in a bad way because they are is concerned. However, they have now entering into opposition with fancy goods had this extra taxation impost placed upon and other classes of business. As Mr. them; and all that they request is that the Logan said, It has been necessary for mem- State Parliament should place this amend- bers of the Chemists' Guild of Australia ment on the statute hook. to comne to this State and assist the local Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I move- chemists in their endeavours. to prevent That the debate be adjourned. the Bill becoming law. It has been said that if the Bill is passed The Chief Secretary: Let the debate there will be friendly society dispensaries go on! You want to finish by Christmas- all over the State. That is not possible; time, don't you? but even i they opened another three or Motion put and passed. [31 October. 1956.J 176176

BILL-STATE GOVERNMENT INSURt- at that time was the Solicitor General- ANICE OFFICE ACT AMENDMENT. advised the manager of the office that the pool was Part of the ordinary business Second Reading. of the office and could be backed by the THE CUIEF SECRETARY (Hon. 0. general reserves of the office. Flraser-West) [6.3] in moving the second On the 20th March, 1946, the then Soli- reading said: This is far from the first citor General expressed the following time on which a Bill to enable the State opinions in reply to questions raised by Insurance Office to conduct all forms of the manager:- insurance, other than life assurance, has I consider that the new pool busi- been presented to the House, and I make ness authorised by Act No. 23 of 1945 no apology for again introducing such a is part of the ordinary business of your measure. At the last election the policy office. of the Government was most definitely en- The local authorities will be the in- dorsed by the people and the Government sured under the pool scheme and not was returned with an increased and very the Insurers. I do not consider that substantial majority. It is the belief of the local authorities will be carrying the Government that the people would on insurance business--they will benefit by this extension of the State In- merely be entering into an agreement surance Office activities. with a view to limiting their liability On each occasion that Bills similar to and to save expense. In the event this have been introduced, mis-statements of claims in any one year exceeding have been made by those who have op- the total of net revenue received by posed the proposals. It is so easy for the your office, you Intend to make good true position to be ascertained that there the deficiency from your own reserves is no excuse whatsoever for such state- in the ordinary course of your business. ments. The position in regard to the local These opinions, expressed by two Queen's authorities pool controlled by the State Counsel, give the lie to the statement that Insurance Office has been misrepresented the pool is a sell -insurance scheme and verbally, and in the country Press. that the members of the pool may be One recent statement that was very far called upon at any time to meet a sub- from the truth was that the insurance stantial deficiency in the event of a pool run by the State Insurance Office catastrophe. The risks accepted by the for local authorities was a self-insurance office through the pool are reinsured in scheme that superficially looked attractive exactly the same manner as any other because of low premiums and rebates, but risks undertaken by that office, so that that it was unsound from the viewpoint the Position is never likely to arise where of sound insurance practice. The state- even the general reserves of the office will ment went on to say that no Private com- be called upon to meet claims. The office pany would conduct this sort of business, retains only such portion of the risk as that the rates charged did not allow can be met from Its funds in the ordinary adequate reinsurance, and that a major course of trading. disaster could easily find the pool unable The outstanding feature of the pool is to meet Its commitments. that an amount of 223,000 has been re- A statement such as this could have bated to contributing members since its serious repercussions. It may have been inception and to that extent the rate- designed to mislead the 131 local authori- payers of the respective districts have ties that now insure with the State Insur- materially benefited. It was recently ance Office, so that the business would be alleged that while another argument used transferred and a substantial loss of in- was that there should be no objection to come and profit caused to the office. Any free competition from the State Insurance person making such a damaging and Office the Bill gave the lie to this by pro- foolish Public statement must accept full viding that all Government business must responsibility for it. In reply to this pro- go through the State Insurance Office. duct of misrepresentation-and I hope lack It was then said there can be thus no of knowledge of the position-I am going chance of underquoting the State Office to endeavour to make the position clear. in this large field. That, again, is a gross When the State Government Insurance mis-statement of fact as no such provision Office Act was amended in 1945 the defini- is contained in the Bill. tion of "insurance business" was extended There is a Provision that the office shall to enable the State office to accept all administer, as agent for the Treasurer, the classes of insurable risks in respect of State Government Fire, Marine and which local authorities and friendly socie- General Insurance Fund, but that is only ties ordinarily require and obtain insur- in respect of any business which would be ance. A provision was included that such Placed through that fund and does not ne- Insurance would have to be arranged by cessarily apply to all Government property. way of a pool or some other scheme agreed As a matter of fact, had the Bill been to between the State Insurance Office and Passed in 1953. the reinsurance of Gov- friendly societies or local government ernment property valued at some millions authorities. Mr. J. L. Walker, Q.C.-who of Pounds would have been placed with 1762 1752[COUNCIL.)3 the tariff companies at tariff rates, and I then rendered to its members by the Em- feel justified in saying that that would ployers' Federation. Immediately the. bank still be the position if this Bill is passed. credit squeeze commenced, members of Until such time as the State office has the that body approached the State Govern- right to enter into business with other in- menit Insurance office for loans to enable surers on a, proper reciprocal basis, the them to comply with the demand of the present position must continue. banks for a reduction in overdrafts. Reference has been made to the very Hon. C. H. Simpson: I do not think that small profits, when related to shareholders' is f air! funds, made by a number of companies The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am merely which have been operating for many years. telling the hon. member what has hap- During the last Parliamentary session I pened. gave sufficientI inf ormation- to the House of the colossal profits which have been made Hon. C. H. Simpson: It Is the privati in the past and which are still being made business of the concern. by insurance companies. It is not neces- I have not sary for me to repeat those cases, but I The CHIEF SECRETARY: have picked one at random and the pub- mentioned any names. - lished statement in regard to It reads as H-on. C. H. Simpson: -You said, "Mem- follows- bers of that body." I Effect is given in the accounts to the The PRESIDENT: Order, please! capitalisation of £760,000 of undivided profits applied in discharge of the un- -The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes, I said called liability of 15s. a share, the "Members of that body." That could -be paid-up capital being raised from anyone. -The same principle applies when £250,000. to £1,000,000 while the re- an hon. member wins an election by only serve fund is shown reduced from one vote. It could be. the vote of anyone. £1,250,000 to £500,000. The dividend That is what the hon. ,member is object- is raised by 2s. to 10s. a share, less Ing to, is it? Unfortunately the office had tax, following an increase of is. 3d. a 'insufficient uninvested funds availab~e to share a year ago.. mneet all the requests received, but it was in a position to advance k110,000 to ap- The position is that £1 shares paid only plicants. Further amounts totalling to 5s. enjoyed a dividend of 10s. per share, £60,000 had to be refused. but part of the shareholders' -funds is represented by an undivided profit reserve Had the Bill been passed in 1953 there of £750,000. Had the dividend been re- Is no doubt whatever that the office would lated to shareholders' funds It would, on have had sufficient funds to satisfy the re- paper, have been considerably lower than quirements of the other applicants. It is 10s. per share. Nevertheless, that was the rather strange that so much opposition amount distributed. The £750,000 has should be raised to the passage of this been used as a bonus share distribution to Bill when, apart altogether from the the extent of 15s. per share, making the State itself, all sections of the community shares fully paid to f£1. Had the undivided are receiving such material advantage by profits reserve not been created, it is ob- the operations of the State office. vious that the dividends over the years on I say, without fear of Justifiable con- the shares paid up to only 5s. would have tradiction, that the general accident been substantially greater. offices operating in Western Australia I hope I may be pardoned for referring make little, If any, contribution to the to the position which arose in this House development of the State by direct Invest- when a similar Bill was introduced in mnents outside of the cost of their own 1953. .It will be remembered that in their buildings and I give Opposition members wisdom members passed the Bill at the an Opportunity to produce definite evid- second reading stage by 16 votes to 9 and ence of the extent to which such com- It also passed the Committee stage. I have panies have funds invested in Western it on very good authority that the Em- Australia- ployers' Federation and the Chamber of At the present time the State Office has Commerce then got moving and engineered invested the following amounts:- the defeat of the Bill at the third reading. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: That is cast- Semi-governmental loans, ing a slur on the members of this House, including investments in you know. State Electricity Comn- mission loans ...... - 840,000 The CHIEF SECRETARY: Members to local authorities 36,422 are aware that there has been pressure Loans placed on members not once but on many Loans to Private industry 110,000 occasions when Bills have been introduced Contributions to Revenue, in this Chamber. History has proved that including taxation .... 778,000 no greater disservice was rendered to the members of any organisation than that Sitting suspende4 from 6.15 to 7.30 p.mn. 131 October, 1956.1 161763

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Before tea. I been referred to and one is naturally justi- had given figures for the amounts Invested fled in wondering whether the silence of the by the State Office. in addition, It has Press -and perhaps the silence of the in- erected a building without any charge to surers, is with a view to keeping from the loan or revenue funds, the approximate public the fact that this measure is be- cost of which will be £500,000. fore the House. In the interests of the I-on. L. A Logan: It must be Profiteering. State, the Insuring public and the tariff companies, this Bill should become law. The CHIEF SECRETARY: If It is, I do not know what I would like to say about Figures have been Quoted to indicate that others in the same line of business, The the State Government Insurance Office has office pays to the State Treasurer an not been able to maintain its position in amount of tax which would be paid to the regard to workers' compensation business. Commonwealth Government if it were a This is larely due to firstly, the fact that taxable company and for the year ended employers obtain from the State office the 30th June last approximately £49,000 quotes for their business and immediately was paid under that heading. go back to the private companies who ac- I have already referred to the material cept the business at State office rates. advantage the, office has been to local gov- Secondly, in many cases large firms op- ernment authorities through the opera- erating in Western Australia are controlled tions of the Pool. One of the main from the Eastern States. On several oc- reasons why the Government is so per- casions the local, branch, which has been sistent in' introducing -this measure is the insured with the State office for some con- continuing, demand by members of the siderable time, has been instructed by public for the office tiO handle aUl types of Its Eastern States head office to transfer genera! accident business. Direct repre- its insurance to -a nominated tariff com- sentations have been made by the Civil -pany. Service, Association and. It must be con- ceded that the Public Service represents a It would appear, therefore," that the tar- fair proportion of the community. -If the riff companies are not satisfied with fair number of teabchers and other Government competition. within the State, but use their employees was added to the public servants, influence through their head offices in the the figure would be quite substantial. Eastern States, the result being a loss of The State office is. of course, authorised business to the 'State office. to; handle motor vehicle comprehensive in- surance for the public generally and the On one occasion, the manager of a very volume of that business being placed with substantial business expressed bis extreme the office is astonishing. During the last regret at being compelled to transfer his financial year. motor-vehicle comprehen- biusiness from the State office to one of the sive premiums exceeded £120,000 and the tariff companies, but he had no alternative new policies being issued, after allowing as he was acting under his head office for policies lapsed, now average about 200 instructions. per month. Thirdly, a big disadvantage under which No doubt members have noticed that in the State office is 'working is that it is the past a good deal of opposition has been unable to accept the fire, public risk and raised by the insurance companies, both other -insurance risks from employers. by Issue of pamphlets and by use of the Many firms prefer to have the whole of broadcasting stations, when a Bill has been their business with the onle office and that before the House. In 1953. when the Bill has been stated by some employers as the was defeated at the third reading stage, reason for transferring their business. there was no opposition from the insurance companies. There is one class of Insurance in respect of which the public are free to decide The manager of the State office discus- where their insurance will be placed, and sed the matter with a number of members that is the motor-vehicle comprehensive of the Underwriters' Council in Melbourne insurance, but it is most noticeable that -who are, of course, the general managers very little is said about that. Notwith- controlling the various offices In Australia standing the competition by approximately -and it was confidently expected that the 70 tariff companies, non-tariff offices and Bill would be accepted by this House and the R.AC., the state office received pre- that the State office would be in the same miums totalling over £120,000 during the position as those of New South Wales, last financial year, and at the present Queensland and Tasmania. In 1954 pam- time, after allowing for lapses, the net phlets were issued, but I think that was number largely due to pressure in 1953 by the of new Policies issued is ap- organisations already referred to. proximately 200 per month. That, I think, is a complete answer as to whether or not During the current session of Parliament the public are seeking the services of the the companies have been silent. It is State office. noticed, too, that the local Press has been particularly reticent in furnishing infor- Reference that has been made to the mation regarding the debates on this meas- New South Wales State Government In- ure. As a matter of fact, it has hardly surance office is most unfair. The loss 1764 1764[COUNCIL.) of 071,695, as disclosed in the August BILL-NURSES REGISTRATION ACT 1955 issue of the "Insurance and Banking AMENDMENT. Record" was solely in respect of the Motor Vehicle (Third Party) Insurance. Second Reading. In every other branch of its activities the THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. G. New South Wales State Insurance Office Fraser-West) (7.41] in moving the showed substantial profits. Members may second reading said: This Bill is the not know that all insurers in the Eastern result of a resolution Passed by the States have shown tremendous losses on Nurses' Registration Board on the 26th their third party business. May last that general, children's, men- Might I say that the same position has tal and tuberculosis nursing trainees operated in this State for many years-- who have undergone the specified ever since the inception of the motor periods of training and have passed vehicle insurance trust. I have not seen their examinations should be able to regis- the figures for the last year, but we gave ter with the board before they reach the substantial rises approximately 12 months age of 21 years, which is the age laid or two years ago to increase the premiums down in the principal Act. on motor-vehicle insurance. I have not For the information of members I would been able to examine the position and see advise them that the Nurses' Registration -whether they were successful in balancing Board comprises the Commissioner of Pub- the ledger, but the losses sustained in the lic Health who Is chairman; the Inspector first five years were tremendous. General of the Insane: two medical prac- titioners nominated by the B.M.A.. one of I have not got the figures with me but whom must be an obstetrician; two senior members can take it from me that they registered nurses on the staff of a nurs- were substantial, so much so that a num- ing training school or hospital, one of ber of these companies that were part and whom must be trained and experienced in parcel of motor-vehicle insurance Pulled midwifery nursing and infant welfare out; and it was apparent that unless in- nursing; a general trained nurse, a mental creased premiums were granted, the re- nurse; and a midwifery nurse. mainder would also pull out, which would mean the State office having to carry the At present, the principal Act provides losses. So It was not quite fair to refer that persons may be registered as general, to New South Wales in this connection children's or mental nurses if they have because every other department has shown attained the age of 21 years, have passed a considerable profit. the prescribed examination and have had at least three years' training. The only Fortunately that position has not oc- difference with tuberculosis nurses is that eurred in Western Australia, largely due they must have had two years' training. to the foresight of the manager of the State office. It was on his recommenda- The regulations made under the Act en- tion and due to his persistence that the able girls to start general, children's and Motot Vehicle Insurance Trust was stab- mental training at the age of 171 years. lished, notwithstanding strong opposition Many of these girls complete their three from the Underwriters' Council in Mel- years of training and pass their examina- bourne. As the result of the operations tion before they are 21 years of age. Under of the trust in this State, no call has the Act girls can commence the two years been made on any one of the companies of tuberculosis nursing training when they which are participating approved insurers are 18. under the Motor Vehicle (Third Party In- A period of up to 12 months could elapse surance) Act and are liable to make good before successful trainees could register the losses incurred by the trust. as tuberculosis nurses. This hiatus of Furthermore, the premium on a private several months causes salary and seniority car in Western Australia is now £3 I~s. losses to these girls and has, I am told, compared with £7 and £8 in New South caused girls unhappiness and unrest. In Wales and Victoria respectively. That. regard to the age at which training can surely, is another very good service which commence it has been found that many has been rendered to the public through girls who would have made good nurses the influence of the State office. I move- have been lost to the profession because they would have to wait too long to start That the Bill be now read a second training. These girls have taken up other time. avocations which they have become On motion by Hon. C. H. Simpson, de- interested In and do not persevere with their nursing Intentions. bate adjourned. To overcome these difficulties the Bill BILL-STATE TRADING CONCERNS proposes that the three years of general, ACT AMENDMENT. children's and mental training may be commenced at the age of 17 years and that Received from the Assembly and read on completing the course and Passing the a first time. examination a trainee may Immediately be [31 October. 1956.) 1765 registered as a nurse. This means that teetotaller. I am going to oppose this successful trainees could be registered measure, and I believe I am Justified if for prior to attaining thieIr 21st birthday. no other reason than that this section of It is considered advisable to retain the the community has suffered sufficiently. minimum age of 18 years for tuberculosis It is only a short time since the Govern- trainees an4 to Permit them to be regis- ment and the Press were attacking the tered when they successfully pass their Federal Government for taking action to two-year course. Some years ago the reduce the consumption of liquor by an Tuberculosis Committee of the National increase in taxes in the so-called Little Health and Medical Research Council Budget. It also had in view the intention unanimously, decided that 'girls should of obtaining increased moneys to try to commence training in tuberculosis hospi- meet Payments to the State Governments tals at the age of 18. for the coming year. In regard to midwifery training the Nurses' Registration Board considers. that As everybody knows, election propaganda any person under 19 years is too immature spread like wildfire throughout the State. to start training in this branch of nursing. and that fire-or the flames from that The Bill.. therefore, seeks to include a pro- fire-were added to by what appeared in vision specifying 19 as the minimum the Press and what was said on every age. In view of this the provision is de- election Platform from which members leted which enables the registration Of were speaking. From start to finish we midwifery trainees who have reached 21 heard the Government branded as 'grab- years of age and have passed their exam- bers," and that they were penalising the inations. working man, the wage-earner. The By the time these girls had finished their Federal Government was berated because two-year course and passed their examina- of its action in seeking to Penalise the tion they would be over 21. As with the working man. As a matter of fact the other courses of training, the Bill proposes term B.C. was no longer laid down as that registration can be achieved when the a Biblical measurement of time; it was examination is Passed. used as a humorous term "such and such In Victoria, the age for registration of happened before B.C-before beer and nurses has been reduced to 20 years, and cigarettes." in Queensland nurses are registered subse- quent to completing satisfactorily the pres- Today we have the State Government, cribed period of training and passing their after having obtained some fair share of *xaminatlons. the money that was gained and contri- The Nurses' Registration Board con- buted to by the liquor trade, now propos- siders the Proposals In tle Bill could be a Ing to impose a further measure of taxa- means of obtaining more girls for the tion on the liquor trade which I believe nursing profession and assist in relieving Is unfair. I cannot look at it in any the shortage in Western Australia of other way. The arguments advanced at trained nursing staff. that time-admittedly it was Just prior to Hon. H, KC. Watson: The Nurses' Federa- an election-against the Federal measure, tion do not agree with that view. could be applied word for word against this measure put forward today by the The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not know State Government. It is imn.posing a fur- about that, but we know at least In regard ther tax on the same group of people, to those that I have stated that the Nurses' and it is going to be just as much an im- Registration Board does. I move-. position on the working man's pot of beer That the Bill be now read a second as was the original tax, the difference time. being that the original tax was intended On motion by Hon. A. F. Griffith, debate to find money for the States. This State has already had some of that money, and adjourned. now it seeks to take another bit from the BILL-LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT same people who have already contributed. (No. 3). Many members will remember a clever Second Reading. and humorous cartoon at that time called Debate resumed from the Previous day. the "Tax-us raiders". It would appear that the "Tax-us raiders" now have a new HON. J1. MV.A. CUNNINGHAM (South- leader, El Falcon, which anyone who reads East) [7.46]: I am not going to have very Wild West novels will know is the Mexican much to say Co1 this Bill, but I have sonic termi for "The hawk." It seems the 'Tax- remarks which I would like to put before us raiders" are raiding again. At that time the House. It is a Bill that has evoked it was accepted as a very clever play on quite a lot of criticism In this House and. words, which it was. But surely there is so far as I can see, not very much support. no one that could be more aptly described I think that is understandable. as "Tax-us raiders" than the present Gov- My attitude may be open to criticism by ernment! We know there are other meas- some members, but I would have them ures and forms of taxation which we have keep in mind that I am speaking as a not yet heard of. 1766 [COUNCIL.]

I feel most reluctant to support any Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Legalising future Bills which will increase public them. charges, until I have seen what the Pre- Hon. J. M. A. CUNNINGHAM: I am mier does intend to do with his financial quite reasonable about it. I have put a position so far as the Budget is concerned. shilling in once or twice, but I have not Early in the session we heard preliminary been dragged to the poker machines when statements: but, up to date, there has only I did not want to be. If a man does not been a series of Bills to raise money one want to use them he does not have to. way or another. This House has recognised I have made my attitude quite clear in the right of the Government to raise this respect and would support a measure money, and has put very little opposition if introduced. in the way, but this has to come to an The Chief Secretary: A good political end somewhere. announcement. Every section of the community, one by Hon. J. M. A. CUNNINGHAM: I would one, Is being taxed. I will not say "shot recall the Minister to the occasion when at" which is an unfair term; but I have "two-up" schools were closed. Only two some interesting figures here which show members had anything to say, and I was that already some £12,000,000 has been one of them. I know how far I am pre- contributed to the finances of the country pared to go. With these remarks I oppose by excise. over half of which has come the measure. from beer alone. We know that the sale of beer has increased very nearly 300 per BON. A. R. JONES (Midland) [7.57]: 1 cent. in the last 10 or 15 years. On the am not going to let this opportunity slip other hand, the population has Increased by without making a comment on this considerably and no doubt that accounts Bill. I am not so concerned with the-in- for a great portion of that increase in con- crease in the rate which this Bill proposes sumption. However the population in- as I am with the way the Bill proposes crease would not have anything to do with to grab money over a period dating back the 1,000 per cent. increase in excise duties to last September, particularly in the which is what the increase has been. instance of clubs. I feel it is a real im- position; and in this House, or any other I just do not know how the Government place, we should oppose a Bill which can justify this legislation In face of all will take money dating back 12 months. that was said some few months ago when If passed, this legislation will result in an almost identical measures were taken by additional 3A per cent, being collected from another Government. Fuirthermore, the clubs retrospecively to the 30th Sep- retrospective payment of this taxation is tember, 1956. In the case of breweries it to me a most unfair thing-unfair and is a litle lighter, and even in the case unreasonable. of hotels it will go back to the 30th June Another point which concerns me is in this year. regard to the gambling machines in clubs, I cannot see any good reason for this which have been operating for many years. type of legislation and I feel we should Admittedly these are illegal: but the Gov- not allow this Government, or any other ernment contemplates enforcing a measure Government, to get away with it. In these which will preclude their use completely, times businessmen have to prepare a and the clubs are going to suffer con- budget. It is prepared on certain lines siderably. The pros and cons have not with the knowledge that they will have been discussed publicly or in this House; certain commitments, such as an allow- and I hope they will be, as the clubs are ance for an increase in the basic wage going to suffer a financial setback as the or in costs. But surely nobody would result of the withdrawing of these poker budget for an increase in tax-in the case machines. of hotels 2b per cent., and in that of I consider this Bill is going to slug them clubs, 3J per cent. I would like the Mini- again; their taxation will be increased ster to give us his explanation as to why and it could be a very grave thing so far it is being done. I have thought seriously as the established clubs in this country enough about it to consider requesting are concerned. The clubs as we know an amendment to cover the situtatlon, and them today are a form of entertainment I am certainly not going to vote for this and relaxation. They are not only for type of legislation. the wealthy section of the community, which was the case many years ago, but HON. A. F. GRIFFITH (Suburban) some of the best run and best organised [8.0]: It is a pity in a way that members clubs today are working men's clubs of the Legislative Council do not get the catering for the wage-earner. opportunity to look at the Budget. It is The Chief Secretary: Do you favour also distressing to me to ascertain that the poker machines in clubs? up to date the Treasurer of the State has not produced a Budget, but we are asked Hon. J. M. A. CUNNINGHAM: I do to pass taxing Bills continuing further not favour or oppose them, but I would give imposts on our people without our having consideration to legislation for orderly any idea as to how the money is to be supervision of the machines. spent. We know how it is going to be raised. [31 October, 1958.1 101767

In the Bill we see a tax being placed on means of effecting this addition to the in- a certain section of the community. Then come of the State through other channels in other legislation before the House we in the Budget, of which we have heard see further taxation on another section of nothing at present. the community, and this taxation is so I strongly feel that something should low that it can scarcely be called an im- be done in the Committee stage, and I Post; nevertheless, there it is. I do not was pleased to hear Mr. Jones say that if feel at all happy about this state of affairs. the measure passes the second reading Members of this Chamber before they pass he proposes to move an amendment. I these Bills are quite entitled to say that sincerely hope that members will give It it is competent for Parliament to have a careful consideration. look at the Budget to see how the Trea- surer is going to spend the money. BON. SIR CHARLES LATHAM (Cen- I do not propose to go into the pros tral) [8.61: I have always objected to this and cons of the legislation at the moment, class of legislation. We raise money for but just to take the opportunity of pro- the benefit of all the people, and no con- testing to the Chief Secretary, as the tribution should be made by any one sec- representative of the Government in the tion of the community. That applies more House, that legislation such as this, on particularly here because this money will a section of the community, does not meet be collected from what I term a vice. with my approval. It is extremely interest- While I have no objection to someone else ing to note that, about six months ago, paying taxes for me, I point out that the on the very Issue of beer, the Government unfortunate People who drink beer are rode to success in an election campaign, making the contribution, and they are calling the Prime Minister of this country making It for a class of people who could all that they could lay their tongues to well make the contribution themselves. The because he imposed an impost which in- Government should have the Estimates creased the price of beer by 2d. a schooner. before us. When there is any deficiency Now, within a very short space of time, we between the budgeted expenditure for the find the same people who decried that year and the amount of income that can be action, imposing a tax to raise the sum obtained, the Government could bring down of £120,000 from the liquor trade. This a taxing measure and let us all make our strikes me as being most inconsistent; but contribution to it on a fair basis. of course we are getting accustomed to in- consistencies. At this stage I reserve my I have always pleaded this, in another attitude on the Bill and wait for further place as well as here. I do not like to see developments. the people who unfortunately have to pa a terrific amount of money on beer, having HON. R. C. MATTISKE (Metropolitan) to pay taxes for the education of my [8.41: I strongly oppose the measure. At children, or whatever cause the money is the present tine we have before us two used for. The principle Is wrong. I know the Government must have money, and I Bills, one dealing with betting and the know the cry that was uttered against the other with licensing. On the one hand Federal Government, just before the elec- we find the Government Is championing tion. The action of that Government the cause of the betting community-the probably changed the Goverrnent in this s.p. bookmakers--and saying that they can- State. because the Federal Government had not afford to pay more than a certain brought down what it called the Little rate of tax on their turnover. On the Budget. I was just as much against that other hand the Government is imposing a as I am against this, because under that further penalty on those persons who dis- Budget it was the people who smoked pense liquor throughout the State. cigarettes and those who drank beer who I feel that the bookmakers provide no had to pay. Those who did not pay got all more service to the community than do the benefit of the expenditure without the one-armed bandits. On the other hand. making any contribution. the people who conduct hotels do provide other services which are well-known to us Hon. F. J. S. Wise: You are not saying all. It Is a case of niggling all the time that all revenue should be raised from at the poor old hotelkeeper. and at the income tax. same time driving him into the position Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I have where he finds he must pass these imposi- not suggested that. We sell land. The tions on to the public and thereby create hon. member, having once been Treasurer an additional burden on the consuming of the State, will know that we would not public. I feel it is quite unjust and that expect it all to come from income tax. there is no necessity for this. If the There are many other sources. Are there amount of income to be produced from any means of raising further tax from that tax were considerable and could other sources? have definite benefits to the State, there might be some reason for considering The Chief Secretary: Any amount. this seriously, but the amount of income Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I sup- that it Is expected to raise-L120,000 per pose that is so, and they will be equally annum-is so small that there must be as unfair as this tax is. 1768 (COUNCIL.]

The Chief Secretary: That is neither a The next amendment deals with the in- threat nor a promise. position of the tax and provides- Hon. SIR CHARLES LATHAM: I am not and with the return furnished for the six months ending on the thirty-first making a contribution to the taxation that day of December, one thousand nine I should make in this State. hundred and fifty-six, and with the The Chief Secretary: You are the first return for each six months thereafter. man I have heard say that he was not shall so pay as such moiety a sum paying enough taxation. equal to eight and one-third pounds per centum instead of six pounds per Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I say I centurn...... am not making a fair contribution, and it is from that angle that I say this class of This conveys to me that the tax will be legislation is wrong. The people have imposed from the 1st July of this year. elected a Government and have given it If the Minister does not know whether that powers to tax and provide services. I think is so. I hope he will get the information we provide a lot more services than we are from the Premier so we will know whether Justified in providing. In many ways the I read the Bill correctly. I do not think public can provide their own. Let us not even the Government would desire that forget, too, that the Government cannot there be a misunderstanding as to when make services available as cheaply as the the tax commences. I believe it Is to people themselves can. We have built up start on the 1st July. a terrific public service in the State, and The Chief Secretary: I think so. it is still going on. It will be added to. and those officers have to be paid. Every Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The basic wage adjustment brings about a Minister might find out and let us know further rise. when he replies. It is about time we really made Hon. N. E. Baxter: Why the necessity for a thorough investigation of the finances retrospective dates at all? of the State. I admit that I am Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: To find probably not qualified to make such an out what the purchases, on which the tax investigation, but there may be other will be Imposed, were during the period. members here who are. This is a young The tax will apply from that date and an country and has terrific problems ahead. adjustment will be made, of course, when yet in the future we are not going to have the next half-yearly return goes in. That the amount of money that the recent suc- Is quite usual. I think I am right In that cessful years have provided for us. Even respect. now there is a tightening up. The Chief Secretary: I think you are. I regret that this class of Bill is not left Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Had it until after the Introduction of the Budget been otherwise, I think the Minister would in another place. The Budget Is submitted have told us. It Is Just as well to be honest to this House. I admit we have very little and say when the tax will be imposed. If power in regard to it. but at least It would it is to be imposed from the 1st January enlighten us and enable us to speak of this year it will be unfair because there authoritatively on whether the Government is no chance of recovering It. The Bill is entitled to ask for this additional tax. ought to be passed as soon as possible so It is a very poor form of taxation. Some that these people may collect this amount members think it is retrospective: that It from those to whom they sell the beer. is to date from the beginning of the year- I do not think the hotelkeepers or the from the 1st January. My reading of the clubs or others who sell beer make Bill is that it commences from the 1st July. such a huge profit that they can afford The Minister might let the House know to lose 2J per cent. of their income. exactly what the Bill does provide In that direction. I notice, too, that it is proposed, by this legislation, that clubs, instead of pay- Hon. H. K. Watson: It is still retro- Ing 5 per cent., will be brought into line spective. with the hotels and will have to pay 8* per cent. I have no objection to that. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I am re- However, I do not like this form of taxa- ferring to the 8& per cent. Section 73 of tion, because I think it is unfair. Mr. the Act provides for this. The Bill deals Wise asked me whether I thought that with the sending in of returns on the 31st all our taxation could be obtained by in- December and the 30th June, respectively. come tax. The Commonwealth Govern- The first amendment is to Section 73 which ment has the responsibility of collecting states that every licensee shall furnish a the money, and I suppose it could have a return, and the amendment provides that bachelor tax and an old maid tax. the return shall be-- to and including the return for the six Hon. H. K. Watson: Or a window tax. months ended on the thirtieth day of Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: In the June, one thousand nine hundred and old days there was a window tax, and I sup- fifty-six. Pose we could even go to that extent. But [31 October, 1956.] 1769

let us examine the expenditure side of gov- when we can see the State being rum In ernment. I have been associated With Gov- such a bad way and the Government ask- ernments for Years; and I know that. In a ing us all the time for more money to household, the whole idea is to make ends carry on. meet, because People cannot Pull Pounds from the air as Governments can. People On motion by Hon. J. Mal. Thomnson, have to cut their suit according to their debate adjourned. cloth; and I think the Government should endeavour to curb its expenditure, instead BILL-PROFITEERING AND UNFAIR of coming to this House year after year TRADING PREVENTION. and asking us to agree to increased taxa- In Committee. tion. I know that as the cost of living in- Resumed from the Previous day. Hon. creases it costs more to run our Govern- W. R. Hall in the Chair; the Chief Sec- ment services; but I am afraid that soon retary in charge of the Bill. 50 per cent. of the people will be the Clause 8-Interpretation (partly con- workers who will be paying for the other sidered). 50 per cent. who will be public servants. We axe very close to that socialist state; Hon. H. K. WATSON: I move an amend- and I should imagine that soon 50 per cent. ment- of the people will be paying for the other That in the definition of "combine" 50 per cent. who will belong to the Labour all words after the word "public" in Party, and then we will get a wonderful line 4, on page 4, be struck out. form of government! What a wonderful This is the amendment I moved last place this would be to live in if that came night and which I withdrew in order to about! All I hope is that I am not here to give the Chief Secretary time to look at see it. it. It is designed to remove from the Bill The Chief Secretary: I like to hear you the words which exclude "boards' from let your imagination run riot. the definition of "combines," and there- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: When fore from the operations of the Bill. The the Chief Secretary is as old as I am, and price of potatoes, onions and eggs has a he looks back at bygone days, he will think material bearing on the cost of living; and of the times when so little income tax the production of those commodities also was paid. I can remember the time when provides a livelihood for many producers. there was no income taxation. For those reasons boards should 'come The Chief Secretary: They would be within the jurisdiction of this legislation, happy days. particularly as it applies to the Crown, as well as other people. There is no reason Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Slowly at all why it should not apply to all but surely taxation has been increased. organisations within the State. At present a worker gets £15 or £20 a week; but before he knows where he is. The CHIEF SECRETARY: The hon. more than half of it Is gone in some form member has told us exactly what he wants of taxation. The worst form is indirect to do, and all I wish to say is that I am taxation. In the future the Poor un- opposed to the amendment. fortunate person who drinks a few Pots Hon. H. L. ROCHE: Naturally I am of beer will pay some of this increased opposed to the amendment; but Mr. Wat- taxation that we are discussing this even- son Is being consistent, because the other ing. I think that where taxation is con- evening he said that he could see no cerned, we should all share the burden. reason why the farmer should be left out- Hon. J. M. A. Cunningham: Drink more side the provisions of the Bill. The farmer beer. has been left outside its provisions because almost the whole of the farming produc- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I would tion in this State is sold by the auction like the Bill to be held up until the system or through organised marketing Estimates are introduced so that we can systems which have been set up as a see what expenditure the Government result of legislation. proposes for the year and to whether it is justified in asking one section of Amendment put and negatived. the community to make a further con- Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an tribution. If we do not think it necessary, amendment- after the Estimates have been introduced, That in the definition of "unfair we can throw the Hill out. I hope those profit" the word who say they represent the hard-working "includes" in line people will stand up and have something 33. page 4, be struck out and the word to say against this class of legislation. We "means" inserted in lieu. should get down to bedrock and see what The word "means" was in the original we can do to save money for the tax- wording of the amendment when it was payers of this country instead of agreeing submitted to another place, but the word meekly to every move for increased taxa- "includes" was substituted by a vote taken tion that is submitted to us. especially in that Chamber. We contend that the 1770 1770COVNCIL) word "means" is more precise, because Hon. J. McI. THOMSON: I move an there is no doubt as to its intention. There amendment- has been a tendency to make this Bill That after the word "goods" in line vague so that people could be easily mis- "or services" led and so that the commiissioner's Powers 34, page 4. the words would be almost unlimited. We believe be inserted. that the word "means" is better in this I gave an instance where tradesmen, instance. who shouldered no responsibility other The CHIEF SECRETARY: I hope that than the ability to carry out a job, were the Committee will not agree to this charging £12 10s. per day, plus travelling amendment. If the word 'means" is used, expenses and keep, and without taxation it will make deduction. They asked for that amount the definition very limited.' in cash for their daily services. In view H-on. A. F. Griffth; You want it to be of such instances. I consider it is neces- looser than it Is. sary to insert those words. The CHIEF SECRETARY: We want it so that it will cover all angles of unfair Hon. H. K. WATSON: I suggest that the profit. The definition has been submitted mover seek leave to withdraw the amend- to the draftsman and he has informed us ment with a view to giving It further con- that the word "includes" is the best word sideration. By inserting those words, we to have in this place. There was a full- will get away from the intention of the dress debate on it in another place; and definition, which seeks to cover goods only. as a result, the word "includes" was used. as will be seen from the wording. The I hope the Committee will not agree to the definition deals with trading as distinct amendment. from services. Speaking for myself, I would like to give the amendment more Hon. H. K. WATSON: I ask the Com- thought before agreeing to It. mittee to agree to the amendment . The term, "unfair profit" should be speci- Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I support the fically defined. If it is intended to mean amendment. As the term "trading" means something more than has been Included trading in goods or services, then the in the present definition, then the Chief definition of "unfair profit" should also Secretary should amend the definition to relate to goods and services. One instance include everything that is Intended. This of an unfair profit has been given, but I should be done in fairness to any member myself have seen other instances where of the public who wants to find out that has occurred. I have seen garage whether or not he is making a fair profit. proprietors charging for tradesmen's rates The Chief Secretary said that the drafts- when they have put apprentices on to jobs. man considered that the word "includes" I say most definitely those are cases where was more suitable that the word "means."' unfair profits were being made. That may be the case from the drafts- man's point of view because he will not Amendment put and passed. have to worry about defining "unfair Profit." Ron. A.- F. GRIFFITH: I move an amendment- Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Chief Sec- - That the word "concerned" retary has given us every reason to agree in line to the amendment. He said that if the 34, page 4, be struck out and the word "means" was inserted the rest of words "prescribed by the regulations" the definition would be very clear: but inserted in leu. that if the word "includes" was retained, The purpose of this amendment is to much would be left to the imagination. maintain* consistency with the policy pre- IHon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The pre- sented by the Government at the last sent wording of the definition is uncertain. elections in April of this year. To refresh The danger is what might be implied as memories, I would quote from "The West being within the definition, and that is Australian" of the 29th March. 1956, in not a good method of legislating. The which the forum run by the newspaper public should know clearly what is meant was put to the leaders of the political by unfair profits. parties. That related to controls. In its election policy, neither side had made any - Hon. J1. 0. HISLOP: It is Perfectly ob- references to price control and rents and vious that the intention to alter the word tenancy restrictions. They were asked- "includes" to the word "means" is a de- sire to clarify the definition. With the (a) Does this mean you do not wish present wording one has no idea of the to introduce them? boundaries of the definition. The desire (b) In what circumstances other than behind the move to retain the word "in- war would you regard their use cludes" is to leave the definition wide justifiable? open so that the Government can act (c) Would you then apply them with, without any restraint. or without, a popular vote on the Amendment put and passed. question? 131 October. 1956.1 171771

The Premier's reply was this-- - In the present circumstances the Legislation to prevent profiteering operation of a Fair Rents Court is and to prevent rack-renting would be adequate protection against excessive, introduced if circumstances justified rentals being charged. such action. Despite the gloomy prediction of the The legislation should Provide that Minister for Housing that "hundreds before any particular commodity or and Perhaps thousands" of cases would service were brought under control a appear before this court, very few regulation would require to be issued cases indeed have been submitted. and each year could be debated and As I said to the Minister for Railways decided in Parliament. the other night, I think that that quota- The Chief Secretary: What did Sir Ross tion strengthens my case. If the Com- MeLarty say? mittee agrees to my amendment It will be putting into the Bill something which. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Does the Chief was the Government's policy prior to the Secretary want me to go through it again? time that it went to the election, and the The Chief Secretary: I would like to Policy on which the Government was have both opinions. elected. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Very well!I The The Minister for Railways: That was. Minister for Railways asked me that ques- price control. tion the other night and he was satisfied Hon. A. F. GRIFFTfl{: Don't sidetrack when I gave him the answer. Sir Ross me! MeLarty said- The Minister for Railways: What was The Liberal and Country League Is the question? opposed generally to imposing controls Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: The question- other than those essential for require- was controls. ments of defence and economic stabil- The Minister for Railways: Price con- ity. trol. The Chief Secretary: He would not op- Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The question pose this then. It is to provide for eco- was~- nomic stability. In its election poicy neither side Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Sir Ross Mciarty has made any reference to price con- continued- trol and rent and tenancy restrictions. There Is no possible justification The Minister for Railways: It took a, for the reintroduction of Price control lot to get it out of you! or rent and tenancy restrictions. Hon. These controls are only warranted A. F. GRIFFITH: Let me read in times of national emergency when again the Premier's answer. the power to impose them is normally The Minister for Railways: NO; we assumed by the Commonwealth Gov- have heard it. ernment. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: What is this In postwar years price control be- Bill to deal with? came increasingly ineffective. The The Chief Secretary: Profiteering. Prices Branch did not control prices. It merely recorded Price increases. 'Hon. A. F. GIFTH: Last night the Statistics show that Prices rose far Chief Secretary objected because we! less after price controls were lifted. wanted to change the title. Now he is trying to crawl out from under the Price control encouraged shortages, Premier's statement. The Premier said dishonesty and black market. It dis- that- couraged production. It built up large The legislation hould Provide that and expensive bureaucratic depart- before any particular commodity or ments. *service were brought under control a Price control defends the least effi- regulation would be required to be cient in industry. It inhibits manage- issued and each year could be debated ment from cutting costs and encour- and decided in Parliament. ages the shoddy manufacturer to All I am asking is that any goods. or reduce quality. services that are to come under control The lifting of rents and tenancies should be made the subject of regulation restrictions halted the rot in rented so that Parliament would be able to dis- Property. Fifteen years of inadequate cuss them. That is in keeping with the rentals meant a prolonged neglect of Government's policy before the election, repair work and painting which was and I take it that the Government has Promoting slum conditions in many not changed its mind. cases. The CHIEF SECRETARY: This is one of Improved housing standards and in- the most stupid amendments I have seen creased accommodation are two of the Put before this Chamber. The hon. mem- immediate benefits which have re- ber need not have any fear about regula- sulted. tions not being provided. There will be 1772 177ICOUNCIL. I

Plenty of regulations under this Act, but Hon. HI. K. WATSON: No matter bow to include regulations in a definition of unlimited they were, the Act as it stands unfair profit is to suggest something which automatically applies to the thousand and is really too stupid to discuss. one things dealt with in the ordinary Hon. H. K. WATSON: As I understand course of trade. It, Mr. Griffith desires that the goods con- Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I agree with Mr. cerned should be specified by regulation. Griffith and Mr. Watson. The wording There Is nothing unusual in that. We specifies for once what the offences shall have a precedent for it, and it has a lot be, what shall be Included, so that people to commend it. If so many things are will know where they stand. We have going to be left out, why not leave every- a Bill which in many ways is vague thing out and then prescribe what is to and does not explain what it means. be brought in? It might be decided to in- A trader has no clue as to the ways in which elude steel or oats or petrol. In that case he may offend. It is the essence of British a regulation could be brought down so law that a man shall have some fore- that Parliament would know what goads knowledge of how he may offend so that it was dealing with. There is a precedent he may avoid giving offence. If this con- for that because, in the last prices Bill, trol is exercised by regulation, everybody which was brought down a year or two will know what the offence is and the ago, it was provided that the measure regulations can be vetted in Parliament, should apply to goods which were specified which will afford some check on the comn- in the schedule or which would be pre- missioner who, under the Bill, appears scribed by regulation. Three goods were mentioned in the schedule, and the in- to have unlimited power. tention was that if any further goods were Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: Under this legis- to be dealt with they were to be prescribed lation the commissioner has the power to by regulation. I understand that is all do practically anything he wishes to do. the amendment proposes shall be done. MY amendment simply provides that goods Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I urge and services he aims to declare shall be the Committee to exercise caution. If Prescribed by regulation. I know that there is provision for regulations, then regulations are made when Parliament is immediately Parliament goes into recess not sitting; but at least Parliament will this genius of a commissioner will come have a chance to look at them, and at the along with a series of them and they will goods or services prescribed when Parlia- remain in force until Parliament meets ment is in session. As the wording is at and for six sitting days thereafter. I have Present, Parliament will have no Power or not forgotten those that we accepted from Jurisdiction whatever. Since the Chief the Commonwealth when it transferred Secretary thinks fit to call this amend- its powers to this State. I could never ment stupid, I venture to suggest he must understand what some of them meant. be sitting behind a stupid Premier, be- Mr. Watson will remember that we took cause I have copied Into the amendment over a small piece of legislation but sheets what the Premier said he would do. and sheets of regulations. The Chief Secretary: Tell us what I believe that Mr. Griffith has the best "The West Australian" Maid the Liberal of intentions, but I would rather have this Party would do when this Bill was before simple word left in the clause than have another Chamber. provision made for regulations. We may import the man who put up the previous Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: What has the regulations! I guarantee that there could Liberal Party or "The West Australian" to have been a first-class argument between dowthti amendment? two of the best Queen's Counsel In Ams- The Chief Secretary: Just as much as tralla over those regulations. I would like to hear Mr. Watson again on this matter. the Premier's statement. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: That is an at- Hon. H. K. WATSON: I agree with Sir tempt to sidetrack the issue. Charles that the last thing we want to do is to import the gentleman who provided The Chief Secretary: You are attem pt- the original national security regulations. ing to double-somersault as you always However, the point Is that at the moment do. all goods are covered by the measure ex- Hon. A. F. GRIFTH: The Chief Sec- cept those controlled by the boards. Mr. retary can go on like that if he wishes. Griffith proposes that the measure should He is a good judge of double-somersaulters. apply only to goods prescribed by regula- The Chief Secretary: I am: I see so tion. The idea is to issue a regulation simply declaring potatoes or onions or many of them in front of me. whatever goods it is required to bring Hon. A. F. GRIMFTH: Will the Chief under the Act. It says "goods which are Secretary tell me what the Treasurer specified." They must be specified in the meant when he said, 'Legislation to pre- regulations. vent profiteering will be introduced if cir- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: There would cumstances permit"? be unlimited specifications. The Chief Secretary: I have the answer. [31st October, 1956.] 1773

Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: He said, "The Ayes. Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon. R. C. IMattiake legislation could provide that before any Mon. J. Cunningham Hon. J. Murray commodity or service was brought under Hon. J. G. Hislop Hon. C. H. Simpson control a regulation would require to be Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. J. M. Thomson Hon. Sir Chas. Latham Hon. H. K. Watson issued and each year could be debated and Ron. 0. MacKinnon Hon. A. F. Griffith decided in Parliament." If what the (Teller.) Treasurer said made sense, this amend- loes. ment makes sense. Hon. 0. Bennetts Han. L. A. Logan Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. H. L. Roche Amendment put and a division taken Hon. G. Fraser Hon. H. C. Strickland with Ho.. J. J. Garrigan Hon. J. D. Teahan the following result:- Hon. E. MS.Heenan Hon. W. F. Willesee ...... I .... Hon. 0. E. Jeffery Hon. P. J. S. Wise Ayes 11 Hon. F. R. H. Lavery Hon. E. M. Davies Noes ...... 15 (Teller.) Fair. 4 Aye. No Majority against Hon. F. D. Wll1mott Hon. R. F. Hutchison Ayes. Amendment thus negatived. Hon. J. Cunningham Hon. 0. MacKinnon Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon. R. C. Mattiske Hun. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an amend- Hon. J. G. BiSIOP lion. J,. Murray ment- Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. C. H. Simpson Hon. Sir Chas. Latham HOn. H. K. Watson That after the word "goods" in line Hon. L,. A. Logan 'Teller.) 40, page 4, the words "or services' be Noes. added. Eon. NT.E. Bnntr' Hon. . R. H. Lavery Hon. 0. Bennetts Han. H. L. Roche Amendment Put and passed. Hon. H. MS.Davies Hon. H. C. Strickland Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. J. D. Teahan Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I move an Hon. 0. Fraser Hon. J. MS.Thomson amendment- Hon. J. J. Carrlgan Hon. W. F. wiliesee Hon. E. MA.Heenan Hon. F. J. S. Wise That after the word "distribution" Hon. 0. E. Jeffery (Teller.) in line 1, page 5, the words "Overhead Fair. charges" be inserted. Hon. F. D. WillmOtt Hon. R. F. Hutchison I cannot contemplate the Chief Secretary Amendment thus negatived. objecting to an amendment of this nature. Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an amend- The inclusion of the words "overhead charges" is merely conforming to normal ment- business Practice. That the words "in the opinion of the commissioner" in lines 38 and 39, The CHIEF SECRETARY: I thought page 4, be struck out. the hon. member knew me better than that, because I definitely Oppose this amend- There is a sound reason for the amend- ment. Overhead charges! ment. The commissioner already has dic- tatorial powers and we should bring them Hon. H. L. Roche: What are they? within reason where possible. Suboclause The CHIEF SECRETARY: Exactly! (3) of Clause 31 provides the right of Those words, if inserted, would render the appeal and so these words are not con- Bill absolutely useless. The hon. member sistent. I can envisage a case which rested need not be afraid, because he read only not on whether something was right or Part of the clause. He should read on a wrong but on whether the commissioner little further. thought it was right or wrong, and pro- tection should be given to possibly in- Hon. A. F. Griffith: Who would say nocently offending parties. whether it was reasonable or not? The CHIEF SECRETARY: I can only The CHIEF SECRETARY: It would be say, as I said in relation to the earlier in the opinion of the commissioner. amendment, that this would make the Hon. A. F'. Griffith: Yes, it is always in clause a stupid one and remove the whole the opinion of this big shot! of its substance, because someone must ,say what is an unfair profit. The CHIEF SECRETARY: These words. if inserted, would be dynamite. Hon. H. K. WATSON: The Chief Secre- tary has not given any reason why the Hon. A. F. GRIFlFITH: I cannot see how amendment should not be agreed to but these words would be dynamite at all. The has exposed the futility of the Bill and Chief Secretary would have the Committee the difficulty of defining "unfair profits." agree to a Bill that would give unlimited Unless the amendment is agreed to an Powers to this man who will be appointed appeal to the court from the decision of as commissioner. I do not think the the commissioner is worth nothing. amendment will do any harmn whatsoever. Amendment Put and a division taken Amendment put and a division taken with the following result:- with the following result:- 12 Ayes ...... Noes ...14 Noes .. 17 Majority against 2 Majority against8 1774 1774COTJNCIL.1

Ayes. my amendment, but if he is not in favour Hon, J. Ounningham HIon. J. Murray Hon, J. 0. Hislap Hon. C. H. Simpson1 of it, he should stand on his feet and say Hon. Sir Chas. Latbain Hon. H. K. Watson SO' Hon. 0. MacKinnon Hion. A. F, Orifflrb Hon. R. C. Mattlake (Teller.) The CHIEF SECRETARY: It is not often Noes. the hon. member invites me to stand on Hon, N. E. Baxter Hon. F- R. H. Lavery my feet: he generally makes a request to Ron. 0. Bennetts Rion. L. A. Logan the contrary. I am not going to waste lion. E. M, Davies Ron. H. L. Roche Hon. L. C. Diver lion, H. C. Strickland words on this amendment. Members can Ron, 0. Fraser lion. J. MA.Thomson really appreciate what the hon. member Mon. J, J,. Garrigan lion, W. F. Wiliesee is seeking. However, there is no necessity Hon, . MI. Heenan Hon. F. J. S. Wise for these boards to come under the juris- lion. 0, E. Jeffery Hon, J. D. Hon, A. R. Jones Teshan(Teller') diction of the commissioner. Pair. Hon. H. K. Watson: You are not con- Aye. No. cerned about the high price of foodstuffs? Hon. F. D. Willmott Eon. R. F, Hutchison The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am; but I Amendment thus negatived. am certain that the people on these Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I Move an hoards- amendment- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Are experts! That after the word "Should" in line The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes. These 3, page 5, the word "reasonably" be People are not concerned with excess pro- struck out and the words "having fits. They are mostly interested in a, regard to customary business practice" reasonable return to the producer. They inserted. are men appointed by primary producers' associations and those appointed by the That is a reasonable request to make if Government. Therefore there is no neces- this commissioner is to have the power to sity for the commissioner to be given decide what shall be a fair profit. The Power over these boards. Chief Secretary has told us that this man is going to be well Versed in business prac- Hon. L. C. DIVER: I oppose the amend- tice. Therefore, if be is such a man he ment, Why was it necessary for these will take into consideration customary boards to be constituted for the protec- business practice in deciding what is a lair tion of agriculture? It was simply because profit. of the unfair trading methods of a number of people. We now want them to trade The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am going to fairly. be reasonable and ask the Committee to They are under the protection of leave the word "reasonably" in the clause. capable officers and they are a Product of What do the words in the amendment Parliament. mean? Having regard to what business Hon. A. R. JONES: Does Mr. Watson Practices? mean to delete all the words on page 5 or all the words in the rest of the clause Hon. A. F. Griffith: Do you stipulate because the clause goes over to Pages 6 what is an unfair profit? and 7? The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes. Hon. H. K. WATSON: I only propose H-on. A. P. Griffith: You tell me where! to delete all the words after the word "meanings" in line 25 on page 5 in the The CHIEF SECRETARY: It is in the definition of "unfair trading" and down opinion of the commissioner. if this to the end of that page. amendment were agreed to, it would leave the door wide open. Taking into account Amendment put and a division taken some of the tales we hear about used car with the following result:- sales, I wonder what would be the custom- Ayes ...... 7 ary practice in regard to that trade? Noes ...... 19 Amendment put and negatived. Majority against ... 12 Hon. H. X. WATSON: I move an amend- ment-- Ayes. Hon. J. Cunningham Hon. R. C. Mattiske That all words after the word Han. A. F. Griffith Han. H. K. Watson in line 25, page 5. be Hon. J. 0. Hislop Hon. J. Murray "meanings" Ron. G. MacKinnon (Teller.) struck out. es. I move this amendment for the same Hon. N. E. Baxter Ron. L. A. Logan Hon. 0. Bennettas Ron. H. L.. Boone reasons I advanced when I put forward the Hon. L. C. Diver Ron. C. ff. Simapson first amendment we considered this even- Hon. 0. Fraser lion. H. C. Strickland Ing. I propose that the operation of these Ronl. 4. J. Garrigan Hon. J. D. Teaban the purview of Hon. E. MA.Heenan Hon. J. MA.Thomson boards shall come under Ron. G. Z. Jeffery Ron. W. F. Willete the commissioner. We are simply making Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. F. J. S. Wise them liable to be Investigated. We are not Hon. Sir Chas. Latham Hon. F. UA. Davies upsetting the administration of the boards, Hon. F, R. H. Lavery (Teller.) but we are making their activities liable to Pair. investigation by the commissioner. If the Aye. No. Chief Secretary is really concerned about Hion. F. D. Wilimot; Han. Rt. F. Hutchison the price of necessities he should support Amendment thus negatived. [31 October. 1956.1 1775

Bon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I move Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an amend- ant amendment- ment- That the word "include" in line 2. That after the word "competition" page 6, be struck out and the word in line 6. page '7, the words "except "mean" inserted in lieu. in so far as customary trade practice applies in relation to purchases in I have spoken to the Chief Secretary and bulk" be added. he has agreed to accept the amendment. Amendment Put and Passed, I think it is accepted practice that there is a concession to those who buy in bulk Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an as compared with those who buy in small amendment- lots, for which there Is a lot of extra trouble in handling and extra accounting That after the word "restrain" in to be done. So those who buy in large line 9, page 6. the letter 'T' be added. quantities expect some reduction. It is in I am advised by the Clerk that for the Practice in Government circles, which addition of this letter, which changes one usually call tenders; but sometimes they word into another, means a motion is buy on the cheapest possible market in necessary. a quantity that will be available at a rea- sonable rate. Perhaps I can give an illus- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I am not tration. Some years ago a friend of mine sure that the word "restrain" is not right. was dealing in groceries; and when he It means to hold back, to check, to with- was buying some sweets, a traveller told hold. him that where they would cost him 91d. they would only cost a large firm like Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: A preposition gov- Woolworths Bid. That concession is made erns the noun and not the verb; so it because it saves a lot of money in the way would be bad grammar if we left this as of handling. I hope the Committee will it is. The word "restrain" in the next accept the word I Propose to Include. line is quite right. Although it is preceded by a word which is sometimes a preposi- 'The CHIEF SECRETARY: Again I in- tion, in this ease, it happens to be part of tend to play safe, as I think the clause the infinitive. covers the position fully. Amendment Put and passed. Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: As this provision stands, a local manufacturer could be at Hon. H. K. WATSON: I am not without a distinct disadvantage with a competitor hope that my amendment will be accepted. from the Eastern States. As I explained Paragraph (a) refers to trade and com- in my second reading speech, the manu- merce within the State as does paragraph facturer in the Eastern States increases (c). There is no reason why Paragraph (b) his manufacturing capacity in order to should not be confined to trade and com- have a surplus which he can dump in merce within the State. Western Australia. Under Section 92 of The CHAIRMAN: I would like members the Constitution nothing can be done about to read their amendments out in order it. With the assurance of good business to give Hansard a chance of recording in bulk the local manufacturer who sells them. If this is not done, there is always here could carry on with a small Profit on the possibility of an error creeping In. small lines. I would ask the Committee to give these People some consideration. Hon. H. K. WATSON: Very well. I move They are not departing from normal trade an amendment- practice. They are only doing what is done In the ordinary way, and I see no reason That after the word "agreement" in whatever to exclude this amendment from line 20, page 6, the words ", in the Bill. tion to trade or commerce withinrela- the State" be inserted. Hon. R. C. MATTISKE: I am astounded at the Chief Secretary, because the whole The CHIEF SECRETARY: This has been essence of this legislation is to try to get purposely left out in my opinion because Prices down to the very minimum. if paragraph (b) has a different meaning by virtue of bulk dealings we are going to to paragraph (c). Accordingly I am not Permit certain of the purchasing public prepared to accept the amendment. Agree- to get goods cheaper, is not that the aim ments or contracts could be made outside of the legislation? the State. The Chief Secretary: Tell me how this H-on. H. K. Watson: I am not refer- amendment would stop it! ring to where an agreement is made. This relates to trade and commerce within the Amendment Put and a division taken State. with the following result:- Ayes ...... 12 The CHIEF SECRETARY: It says "mak- ...... ing of or entering into any contract" and Noes 14 I think that is quite clear. Majority against .. 2 Amendment Put and negatived. [621 1776 [COUNCIL)] Ayes. Amendment put and a division taken Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon. G. Macsinnon with the following result:- Mattiske HOn. J. Cunngbanal Hon. R. C. Ayes ...... 10 Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon. J. Murray Noes ...... 14 Hon. J1. G. Hislop Hon. C. H. Simpson Hon. Sir Chas. Lath am Hon. H. K. Watson Maj.ority against 6 Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. J. M. Thomson (Teller.) Ayes. Noes. Hon. J. Cunningham Hon. 0. MacKinnon Hon. G. Bennetis Hon. F. R. H. Lavery Mon. A. F. Griffith Hon. R. C. Mattiske Hon. E. H. Davies Hon. H. L. Roche Hon. J. 0. Hisiop Hon. C. H. Simpson Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. H. C. Strickland Hon. Sir Chas. Lathamn Hon. H. K. Watson Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. J. Murray Hon. G. Fraser Hon. J. D. Teahan (Teller.) Hon. J. J. Carrigan Hon. W. F. Willesee Noes. Hon. 0. E. Jeffery Hon. F. J. S. Wise Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon. F. R. M. Lavery Ron. A. R. Jones Hon. E. Ms. Heenan Hon. G. Bennette Hon. H. L. Roche (Teller.) Hon. E. M. Davies Hon. H. C. Strickland Pair. Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. J. D. Teahan Aye. No. non. a. Fraser Hon. J. H. Thomson Hon. E MH.Heenan Hon. W. F. Willosee Hon. F. P. Willmott Hon. H. F. Hutchison Hon. 0. E. Jeffery Hon. F. J. S. Wise Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. J. J. Garrigan Amendment thus negatived. (Teller.) Pair. Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an Aye. No. amendment- Hon. F. D. Willmott Hon. R. F. Hutchison That after the word "auction" in Amendment thus negatived. line 8, page 7, the following words be added:- "and no trading practice Hon. L. C. DIVER: I move an amend- common in a majority of States of ment- the Commonwealth other than West- That after line 8, page 7, the follow- ern Australia shall if practised in ing proviso be added:- Western Australia be deemed to be an Provided further the term "ser- unfair trading method or an unfair vices" does not Include profes- method of trade competition." sional services. It must be agreed that trade practices I feel that in a measure of this nature it which are customary in the other States would be impossible to determine a reason- should be accepted as fair methods of able remuneration in many of the different trading in Western Australia. This Bill is professions, especially the medical profes- vague as to what it means; but presumably sion. We have experienced and inex- it will apply to certain people of whom we perienced men, and we have our likes and have no knowledge, and who may trans- dislikes. We might dislike paying five gress quite innocently because they are guineas to one man, but would not hesi- doing something which is done in the tate to pay 100 guineas to another. Eastern States. They may have to appear before the commissioner because in their Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I would like innocence they were guilty of unfair Mr. Diver to tell me where in the Bill the trading. There must be some means by Interpretation of the word "services" which people can understand what their appears, and what the word means within limits are, and I suggest that an easy way the meaning of his amendment. which would be fair is to allow in this Hon. L. C. DIVER: I am afraid the word State what is a regular practice in, say, is not provided for, and if the Bill is Melbourne or Sydney. That should be carried it will need to be recommitted for sufficient defence. this purpose. Professional services are The CHIEF SECRETARY: I did not those rendered by such people as account- think there were any trade practices in the ants. medical practitioners and land other States that were not in existence in agents. They have a set scale of fees. Western Australia. If there are any in the Hon. A. R. JONES: I am not inclined other States, they must be pretty new. If to vote this into the Bill. Professional there are a lot of new trading practices services could be rendered by almost any- in the Eastern States, we do not want them one. A man could be a professional here. plumber, a professional fisherman or just Hon. Sir Charles Latham: They have about anything at all. Labour Governments over there. Hon. L. C. Diver: Would not those oc- The CHIEF SECRETARY: There is a cupations come under the heading of Liberal Government, too. However, Gov- trades? ernments do not come into this, as I am Hon. A. R. JONES: I do not know. talking about trading methods. I refuse H-on. H. K. Watson: You could have a to believe that traders in this State are professional fisherman. far behind in ordinary trading methods. I do not feel the Committee should agree Hon. A. R. JONES: I saw a licence to this amendment and I am going to ask granted to a fisherman and it was a pro- that it be not passed. fessional fisherman's licence. If Mr. Diver (31 October. 1956.] 1777 likes to define the one or two professions and a highly qualified professional busi- he would like to exclude, I could possibly nessman making a little bit more profit support him, but not as the amendment under exactly the same conditions? is at present. H-on. Sir Charles Latham: He is not a Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I disagree with the Professional business mian. amendment in its present terms. In Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Why not? He goes another way I would like to see it carried, through 10 or 15 years' training and because the more people we can take out- studies business law. A businessman is side the Bill, the better. Professional ser- just as entitled to make such a charge as vices could mean those of a plumber or a is a medical man or a barrister. garage man. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I would like to Hon. Sir Charles Latham: They are hear from the Minister. I do not want trades. to vote against the amendment if it can Hon. L. A. LOGAN: An electrician could be explained that it will be of benefit to be a professional man. the Bill. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Are you going Hon. Sir Charles Latham: That is a to accept the Minister's trade. explanation? Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I am trying to Hon. L. A. LOGAN: If a doctor is going encourage him to make one. The word to charge beyond what is a fair amount, "Service" means "for work and labour why should he not come under the Bill? done." What people does the Minister Hon. F. Rt. H. Lavery: We know one consider come within this category, and undertaker who did. how would the commissioner interpret the Hon. 0. C. MacKINNON: The Oxford words "professional services"? dictionary in the library upstairs, by The CHIEF SECRETARY: I suggest to the meaning it gives of "professional," the hon. member that he ask the mover fully bears out the view just expressed by of the amendment what he means by it. Mr. Logan, that the term "professional The only advice I can give is to suggest to services' is just about as wide as we can Mr. Diver that he not persevere with his imagine. It is an antonym of "amateur." amendment because he is on dangerous So we have an amateur cyclist and a pro- ground. I have heard members of the fessional cyclist; an amateur plumber and Committee express doubt as to the mean- a professional plumber. If we could pre- ing of the word. Mr. MacKinnon gave a vail upon the Chief Secretary to let us dictionary definition and I suppose some- pass this amendment, we would be happy. one else will give us a definition out of some other book. I think it Is better to Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: We have leave it out altogether. already added the word "services" in the Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: Does the Minister definition of unfair profits, after the word think there is a danger attached to this "goods," but the amendment here re- amendment which the commissioner may fers to "professional" services. Differential not be able to overcome? charges are made by highly qualified legal Secretary: No. practitioners. A highly qualified legal man The Chief from the East appeared before the Royal Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: What is the Commission which inquired into liquid danger to which the Chief Secretary is re- fuel. I dare say his fees were double ferring? those charged by anyone in this State. The Chief Secretary: The danger of the The same thing applies to surgeons. It interpretation--as to what it means. even applies to undertakers, although I do Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: By whom; the not know whether their occupation is a commissioner? profession. The Chief Secretary: By anybody. There is a vast distinction between Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: But the commis- trades and professions. Trades are sioner would be the only man who would clearly defined in an ordinary dic- have to interpret it. I can see the situa- tionary. The trades include carpenters, tion In which the Chief Secretary Is placed blacksmiths and so on. I do not think the and that has Persuaded me to support the commissioner would be likely to question amendment. a highly skilled man who might be Sitting suspended from 10.15 to 10.44 p.m. brought here for the purpose of perform- ing an operation that is undertaken by Amendment Put and negatived. only very few surgeons in the world. We Clause, as previously amended, put and might include the amendment to give Passed. safety to these people as we might other- Clause 9-Administration: wise prevent them from coming here to Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I move an exercise their professional skill. amendment- Hon. L. A. LOGAN: What is the dif- That after the word "Minister" in ference between a highly qualified legal line 10, Page 7, the words "and subject practitioner making an exorbitant charge also to the provisions of subsection (2) 1778 I COUNCIL.]

of this section" be inserted; and the The CHIEF SECRETARY: He might following be added to stand as Sub- know something and he might not. This clause (2):- is the only thing about which I have some (2) For the purposes of this Act doubt; but the hon. member must not the Governor shall appoint to ad- take it that I am agreeing to everything vise the commissioner an Advisory that he has suggested. I am prepared to Council of six persons com- go a fair way to meeting him, but I think prising- the proposed council is too large, too un- (a) a. representative of the wieldy. I would be prepared to agree to Chamber of Manufac- a council of four, two representing the tures; Chamber of Manufactures, the Chamber of (b) a representative of the Commerce and the Retail Grocers' Associa- Chamber of Commerce; tion; and two representing the consumers, one of whom shall be a farmer, with the (c) a representative of the commissioner as chairman. That would cut Retail Grocers' Associa- out the representative of the industrial tion; unions and the Farmers' Union. I think (d) a representative of the a council of that size would be able to do Industrial trade unions; the job properly. The quorum of course, (e) a representative of the would have to be reduced to three. Farmers' Union; and Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Are you going (f) a person nominated by the to move that as an amendment? I could Minister to represent the not think of suggesting an alteration to general public. something which is perfect! Each member of the council The CHIEF SECRETARY: If the hon. other than the person nominated member will not accept my suggestion, I by the Minister, shall be selected will have to move an amendment. by the Governor from a panel of three names submitted by each of Hon. J. G. HISLOP: I would like to ask the organisation referred to in the whether the services of these people would last preceding subsection. be honorary. Each member of the council The CHAIRMAN: If they were not, I shall hold omfce during the Gover- would say the amendment would be out of nor's pleasure. order. The council shall meet whenever Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I am sure summoned by the commissioner the men appointed would be prepared to but not more than one month shall give their services in an honorary capacity. elapse between each meeting. They would not be asked to meet very The number of members neces- often-about once a month, I should think. sary to constitute a quorum shall I believe we can say that this would not be five and the commissioner shall impose any additional charge on the Crown. be the chairman of and preside at each meeting of the council but The CHIEF SECRETARY: As the hon. shall have a deliberative vote only. member has not accepted my suggestion and altered his amendment, I move- There has been a great deal of doubt a That the amendment be amended by as to the wisdom of throwing such striking out the word "six" in line 4 great responsibility on the shoulders of one man. That is why this advisory of Proposed new Subclause (2) and council is proposed representing the the word "four" inserted in lieu. workers, manufacturers, distributors, and Hon. H. K. WATSON: If this is to be an the small people. In fact, it is representa- honorary committee, I think that should tive of all sections. it is no good having a be stated. I mention the fact because the commissioner if the public have not any word "honorary" would have to be inserted confidence in him. The public will have somewhere before the word "six." confidence if they know there is an advis- The CHAIRMAN: The amendment does ory council to give him advice on such im- not mention anything about "honorary."' portant matters. The CHIEF SECRETARY: If this were The CHIEF SECRETARY: I doubt made a charge upon the Crown, the amend- whether this is being inserted in the cor- ment could not be carried. All I have in rect place. It is a matter of administra- mind is the alteration of the number of tion. Would the "Administration" division council from six to four be the right place for a reference to an members of the advisory council? along the lines I have suggested. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Yes. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Recently when a member wanted to move a simple The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not know. amendment the Chief Secretary objected Hon. Sir Charles Latham: I do. There and said the Committee had not had a is no doubt about that. chance to consider it and moved to re- Hon. N. E. Baxter: It is a good job port progress. Having had this notice somebody knows something! paper before him for a week he now moves [31 Oetdber. -1956.3 177977 his amendment and I protest that be Hon. R. C. MATI'SKE: The committee should give members opportunity to con- on which I sat and which was referred to sider it. by the Chief Secretary is composed of The CHIEF SECRETARY: The amend- three individuals appointed to advise the ment Mr. Griffith referred to was one of Minister on particular cases coming be- five sheets, covering more than 20 amend- fore him. Will the proposed advisory ments. I have moved merely to amend an committee advise the commissioner in amendment moved by Sir Charles Lathaml. every individual case with which he deals, or what is it to do? If it is to advise on Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I would each case the members of the committee accept the amendment on my amendment should be adequately paid. Another point rather than lose the proposed new sub- is that included in the advisory panel is clause. a representative of the farmers. As the Mon. H. K. WATSON: As this Commit- farmers are not affected by the measure, tee has decided that the oninion of the why should one of them devote time to commissioner is to be the determining this sort of thing? factor, unless the measure is recommitted Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: A farmer and amended to say, "in the opinion of is a member of the public, and this is a the commissioner and the committee" the question of what he has to pay. The meas- proposed committee will be entirely useless. ure sets out what the commissioner is Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I take it expected to do and the committee is to the Minister will make the necessary advise him. It might be a situation that adjustment in view of that part of the arises only once a Year. This council amendment which appears on page 2 of could serve a useful purpose. I am sure the notice paper. that when Mr. Mattiske attended that The Chief Secretary: Yes. meeting his advice was valued. I am cer- tain that the names of the three men Hon. R. C. MAflSKE: We are asked which are submitted to the Governor will to provide for an hononary advisory com- be those of men who are highly qualified. mittee and presuppose that they will give Men are Perforning such voluntary serv- their time voluntarily, although they will ices daily. This provision does not relate be wasting their time if the commissioner to the supply of goods. can ignore their advice. Without com- Although I am putting up an argument plementary amendments the committee in favour of this amendment on the amend- will have no value. ment I still say that this State is properly The CHIEF SECRETARY: It is re- treated by men in industry, by men In markable that Mr. Mvattiske was sitting a professional capacity and In other yesterday on an advisory commnittee ap- spheres. We should try to shape this Bill pointed by me at the suggestion of his and make it workable so that the business organization. An advisory committee in people will realise that it is not designed one case Is beautiful, according to him, to irritate and to prevent folk from going but in another case it is useless. about their normal avocations. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Even if Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I am not satis- the advisory committee was not of the fled with this amendment on the amend- same opinion as the commissioner, it could ment. Can Sir Charles tell us what the tell the people what was in his mind and council will do? the minds of the committee, because there is nothing to say it shall be secret. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: I suggest to the Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH- In view of the hon. member that he submit that ques- wording of Sir Charles' amendment, can tion to Mr. Mattiske. What did he do? he tell me on what the committee will Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Is the council deliberate and vote? Will it vote to decide going to advise the commissioner as whether a man Is to be declared? to who shall be an unfair trader or in The Chief Secretary: That is something regard to someone who does something I left out. My amendment would remove that should not be done? What shall the deliberate vote, because we could not be the deliberations of the council? have a vote on an advisory committee. The Chief Secretary: I have not gazed Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: If the committee into the crystal yet. were an advisory one only, the commis- The CHAIRMAN: I suggest to the hon. sioner could flick his fingers at it. member that the committee is discussing The Chief Secretary: What advisory the amendment on the amendment. committee has any powers? Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: With respect, H-on. G. E. JEFFERY: It has been said Sir, do you suggest that I am out of order? that the commissioner would need to be a genius, but I think he would be a muan The CHAIRMAN: No, I do not; but I of sound commonsense; and if the entire hope the hon. member will keep to the committee differed from him in opinion, question before the Chair. I think commonsense would prevail and The Chief Secretary: It is only a ques- that a sound decision would be made. tion of six or four. 1780 1780[COUNCIL]

Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: That is correct, The CHIEF SECRETARY: I did not say and I am well on the amendment on the that he should have exuerience in account- amendment. Let us assume that a com- ancy. mittee of four has a meeting and the Hon. A. F. Griffith: It could be a man majority of them decide that certain action who could not make up a set of books. should be taken and the commissioner is The CHIEF SECRETARY: The Govern- advised accordingly. What happens then? ment will appoint the best man available. The Chief Secretary: You have a lenient Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I am afraid I can- chairman. not agree with the Chief Secretary. Amendment on amendment put and The Chief Secretary: You rarely do. passed. Hon. C. H. SIMPSON. That is so, and On motion by the Chief Secretary, fur- with good reason. The wording now ap- ther consideration of the clause postponed. pearing in the clause is very loose in re- Clause 10-agreed to. gard to an appointment which by the very Clause 11-Appointment of Commis- nature of the Bill is all Important. Certain sioner: sections of the business community, it would appear, are to have their affairs care- Hon. L, C. DIVER: I move an amend- fully scrutinised; and at least they should ment- know that the person who is to scrutinise That the words "Commissioner for them has some knowledge of their business, Prevention of Profiteering and Unfair and also a knowledge of Western Aus- Trading" in lines 16 to 18, page 7o tralian conditions. A person can be ob- be struck out and the words "Un- tained from overseas or from the Eastern fair Trading Control Commissioner" States, but he may not necessarily be inserted in lieu. familiar with the experience and practice Hon, R, C. MA ITIBKE: I think the in common usage here. Committee must agree whole-heartedly The Chief Secretary: Do you think the with this amendment, because there could Government would go to the trouble of not be a more fitting title for the corn- getting a Bill like this through Parliament -missioner. and then appointing a mug to run it? Amendment put and passed. Hion. C. H. SIMPSON,. I have seen the Government make Some appointments that Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I move an amend- I have found hard to understand. The nient- amendment will satisfy those against whom That after the word "person" in the Bill is directed that there will be a line 23, page 7, the words "having competent person appointed to the posi- experience in commercial, business, tion. and trading affairs" be struck out and The Chief Secretary: Don't you think the words "who has within the State the Government would ensure conducted his own retail or wholesale that? business or practised as a public ac- Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: The person countant for a period of at least selected may have more qualifications than five those required; but, on the other hand, he years" inserted in lieu. may not. Let us have something definite This amendment Is moved for a very in the Bill. good reason. The man who is to be ap- pointed as commissioner will have great Amendment put and a division taken responsibility and will be expected to have with the following result:- a fund of knowledge of business affairs Ayes ...... I ...... 14 and accountancy. His character is also Noes ...... 1 .... 12 to be beyond reproach. At the moment the words in the clause could apply to a per- Majority for 2 son who might be anybody. He could work Ayes. in a retail store; and I am sure that is Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon. 0. MacKinnon not the intention of the Government. Hon. JT. Cunninghasa Hon. R. C. Mattiske Bon., L. C. Diver Hon. J. Murray The CHIEF SECRETARY: I hope the Eofl. J. 0. Hislop Hon. C. H. Simpson Committee will not agree to the amend- Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. J. M. Thomson Hon. Sir Chas. Lath am Hon. H. K. Watson ment. It can be taken for granted that Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. A. r. Griffith the Government will appoint the best man (Teller,) available. Noes. Hon. 0. Bennetts Hon. F. H. H. Lavery Hon. A. F. Griffith: As the clause stands Hon. N. M. Davies Hon. H. L. Roche at present it can appoint whoever it likes. Hon. 0. Fraser Hon. Ht. C. Strickland Eon. J. J. Garrigan Hon. W. F. Wiliesee The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes. Hon. E. M. Heenan Hon. F. J. S. Wise HOn. G. E. Jefrery Ron. J. D. Teahan Hon. A. F. Griffith: With no qualifica- (Teller.) tions whatsoever. pair. Aye. NO. The CHIEF SECRETARY: No: he must HOD. P. D. W1111mott Hon, R. F. Hutchison have experience in business and commer- cial affairs. Amendment thus passed; the clause, as Hon. A. F. Griffith: Where does it say amended, agreed to. that he shall have accounting experience? Clauses 12 and 13-agreed to. (31 October: 1956.] 178178

Clause 14-Delegation of powers: Hon. A. F. GRIFlFITH: I move an amendment- Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: I move an amend- ment- That the following be inserted to stand as paragraph (c): That after the word "Commissioner" at the end of paragraph (a) in line The Commissioner may also 32, page 8, the following words be appoint a person with the same qualifications as those required added- for a delegate to be an authorised but such delegation of powers may officer for the purposes of this Act. only be to a person who has within I need make no further remark because the State conducted his own re- this is consequential on the amendment tail or wholesale business or prac- already agreed to. tised as a public accountant for a period of at least five years. Hon. H. L. ROCHE: Does the mover anticipate that only one officer will be This amendment is consequential to the appointed as a delegate? amendment to which the Committee has Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: It may happen just agreed. If it is desirable to have a that the commissioner is absent from his commissioner with experience in retail office for sickness or other reasons, and it or wholesale business or a Public account- may be the intention under Clause 14 to tant who has practised for at least five delegate the powers of the commissioner years, I think it is equally desirable that to an authorised person. In that case he the commissioner's powers of delegation should be Possessed of the same qualifica- should be to a person of similar character. tions as the delegate. Otherwise a group of informers would be brought into being who would go among Ron. H. L. ROCHE: There is already to carry out the dictates Provision in Clause 12 (b) for the appoint- the community ment of an acting commissioner, and the of the commissioner. amendment should really apply to him. The CHIEF SECRETARY: I ask the The commissioner is to possess certain Committee not to agree to the amendment qualifications, but under Clause 12 (b) for the reasons that the hands of the the acting commissioner need not possess commissioner should not be tied and we those. should allow the best type of person to be Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: If the appointed as delegate. commissioner or the acting commissioner were to be called away on business to Hon. H. K. WATSON: I support the country districts, the delegate should be amendment, but I shall oppose the clause. empowered to act for them. It is usual The powers given to the commissioner are for those in responsible positions to be very extensive, and there Is no reason required in two places at once in which why they should be delegated to an in- case a delegate Is necessary. Sometimes competent understrapper. it may happen that the commissioner or Amendment Put and a division taken his deputy is absent through illness. with the following result:- Hon. H. L~. ROCHE: This does not say Ayes .. ...14 the commissioner must appoint him to take Noes ...... 10 his Place. He could appoint this officer, leave him in a back room, and have some- Majority for .. 4 one else acting when he was away. It seems to me that the words will not have the effect the mover desires. Ayes Amendment nut and passed. Ron. N. E. Baxter Hon. G. MacK innon Hon. J. Cunningham Hon. R. C. Me Wiage Hon. L. C. DIVER: I hope the Committee Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. J. Murra ywill eliminate the whole of Clause 14. It Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon. H. L. Hoche has been suggested time and time again, Hon. A. R. Jones Hon. J. M. Tb ornson during the debate on this measure, that it Hon. SIr Chas. LathaeIn Hon. H. K. W~alsn will be very difficult to get the commis- Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. C. H. Sirapson sioner to carry out the requirements of this (Teller.) legislation. If this clause is not removed MSe. from the Bill machinery will be left to Hon. G. Bennetts Hon. H. C. St Aickland enable a substantial number of officers to Hon. 0. ]Fraser Hon. 3. D. TesLaln be appointed, and that is something which Hon. J. J. Garrigon Hon. W. F. W:ilesee I do not want to see. On the rare occasions Bon. 0. E. Jeffery Ron. F. J1.S. Wise when an inquiry arises, even though it be Ron. F. R. H. Lavery Hon. E. M. Da vies in Kalgoorlie, it should be the commis- (Teller.) sioner's job to handle it. We do not want deputies unless the commissioner is ill. As 'airs. Mr. Roche pointed out. Clause 12 (b) will Ayes. Noes. Hon. F. D. wilmot Hon. R. P. Huatebison cover that position. I hope that Clause 14, enn as amended, will be eliminated in its en- Hon. J. 0. Hislop Hon. E. M. He enn tirety. Amendment thus passed. Amendment put and Passed. 1782 ECOUNCH1.l

Clause, as previously amended, put and The Chairman: I am afraid I must rule negatived. this amendment out of order. Clause 15-Secrecy: Hon. C. H. Simpson: Would I be in Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an amend- order in moving the amendment on re- ment- committal? That Subparagraph (ii) in lines 7 to The Chairman: Yes. We have already 15, page 9, be struck out. had a decision on the paragraph as a There should be no obligation on the whole-down to the word "Act" in line part of any officer to communicate any 15. information, which he may come by in the course of his duties, to the officers of an- Committee Resumed. other State or to a Commonwealth officer. as they have nothing to do with the Clause put and passed. administrative affairs of this State. It Clause 16-Protection of Administrative should be obligatory on the individual to take an oath of secrecy. Why should it be Authority: necessary for an official to reveal secret Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I move an information outside? amendment- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I hope the That after the word "thereof" in Committee will not agree to this deletion, line 13, page 10, the following proviso as it may be found necessary to have an be added:- exchange of confidences between the per- Provided that the doing of such sons employed by this commission and per- matter or thing is within the sons occupying somewhat similar positions powers of the Minister or other in other States. person under this Act. Hon. C. H. Simpson: Why? At present the commissioner would be The CHIEF SECRETARY: Our detec- protected, not only under the wide powers tives communicate with those in other given expressly to him, but in respect of States. anything which he does, provided he acts Hon. A. F. Griffith: You are putting the in good faith and purports to be exercising commissioner in the same class as the a legitimate power. A tyrannical commis- detectives? sioner would be free of all responsibility. Ministerial control would not help an in- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am merely dividual who suffered through the actions using that as an example. In some of the of the commissioner. He would have no other States Price control operates; and, although that is slightly different from redress. Even policemen and the Commis- what we are doing, those people might be sioner of Police are liable to damages helpful in regard to certain types of busi- for the abuse of powers, so why should nesses. It is possible that there may be the commissioner by exempt? This is a occasions when they could assist one way fair amendment. The commissioner should or another. not have any more protection than the officers I have mentioned. I hope the Amendment put and negatived. Committee will accept this as being some- Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I am sorry the thing to protect the individual against the Committee did not agree to delete this commissioner who might conceivably not paragraph, as I think it is out of line with give fair and just treatment. similar legislation in any of the States. I am going to ask your permission, Sir, to The CHIEF SECRETARY: I hope the move another amendment deleting the last Committee will not agree to the amend- two or three lines. I move an amend- ment. The words "no matter or thing done ment- In good faith," in the clause are sufficient reason for not agreeing to the amendment. That all words after the word "Act" If the commissioner does something in in line 13, page 9. be struck out and the following inserted in lieu:- good faith he should not be liable. "having for its object the investi- Amendment put and a division taken gation of unfair trading methods." with the following result:- Ayes ...... 11 Point of Order. Noes ...... 12 The Chief Secretary: We have already had a decision on this Paragraph. Majority against .... 1 Hon. C. H. Simpson: Not this part. Ayes. The Chief Secretary: The Committee Hon. N. El. Baxter Ron. J. Murray has decided to retain the whole of it. Hon. Jr. cunninghamo Hon. C. H. Simpson Hon. C. H. Simpson: I am asking for a Hon. Sir Chas, Lathamo Hon. J. M. Thomson deletion of part of the paragraph, and I Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. H. K. Watson think the amendment should receive con- Han. 0. MacKinnon Hon. A. P. Griffith sideration by the Committee. Hon. R. C. Mattsico (Teller.) [31 October, 1956.1 181783

Noes. Hon. G. flennette Hon. H. L. Roche ?Gegtulatiucp Aiwemty Hon. L. 0. Diver Hon. H. C. Strickland Hon. G. Fraser Ron. J. D. Teahan Wednesday, 31st October, 1956. Hon. J. .1. Garrigan Hon. W. P. Willesee Hon. 0. E. Jeffery Hon. F. J. S. Wise CONTENTS. Hon. F, R. Hf. Lavery Hon. E. M~.Davies Page (Teller.) Questions : Railways, (a) concessions to Pairs. students ...... 1784 Noes. Ayes. (b) freight on seeds... .. 1784 Hon. F. D. Willimott Ron. R. F. Hutchison (a) firebreaks, Pioughintg andcot.. 1784 Hon. J. G. Hislop Hon. E. N1. Heenan Housing, (a) Dunbury applications to Amendment thus negatived. commission ...... 1784 Clause put and passed. (b) home construction In Forrest Avenue, Bunbury...... 1785 Clauses 17 to 19-agreed to. Cement Distributors, Ltd., registration, Clause 20-Power to obtain infornation: directors and price 1785 Daifring Industry, (a) development Hon. C. H. SIMPSON; I move an scheme, Margaret River, Northoiife 178 amendment-- (b) Wokalup research station, cost, That the words "and at the place etc...... 1785 specified in the notice" In line 26, page Rest borne for aged, provision at Albany 1756 11, be struck out. Premiers' Conference, agenda and con- Under this clause the commissioner can sideration ... .. 1786 demand that a man attend at a certain Agriculture, development of Scott River place and a certain time. Actually the area ...... 178S commissioner could write to that man for Road transport, restriction on milling the information and have it sent to him timber ...... 1786 or despatch an officer to the man's place Rural & Industries Bank, advances on of business to obtain the Information. If overdraft 1788 the amendment is agreed to the commis- Potatoes, (a) growers and licensing position 1786 sioner will have all the power necessary to (b) Government and unlicensed get the information required. growers 1787 Progress reported. Government supplies, method of acquir- ing . - . - ...... 1787 BILL-CHILD WELFARE ACT Natives, cost of rations ... .. 1787 AMENDMENT. Probate, exemption on softwood planta- tions ...... 1788 Received from the Assembly and, on State Engineering Works, (a) financial motion by Hon. A. R. Jones, read a first report, 1955-4% and trading results 1788 time. (b) Mr Baker and source of Informa- tion...... 1788 (c) correctness of Mr. Baker's ligures 1788 - ADJOURNMENT-SPECIAL. (d) availability of 1956 report .. 1788 THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. 0. State Brick Works, closure of wire-cut Fraser-West): I move- section ...... 1789 adjourn Auditor Generai's report, availability ., 1789 That the House at its rising Banking Industry Select Committee, extension till 3.30 p.m. today. of time .. . 1789 Question put and passed. Leave of absence ...... 1789 Motion : King Edward Memorial Hospital, Homse adiourned at 12.17 am. (Thiursday). wrongfui action of Government... .. 1805 Bills : Land Act Amendment, (No. 2), Ii... 1789 Fruit Growing Industry (Trust Fund) Act Amendment, fr...... I 1789 State Trading Concerns Act Amendment, Sr. L...... 1789 City of Perth Scheme for Superannua- tion (Amendments Authorisation), Zr., Corn., report 1789 Police Act Amendment (No. 2), 2r. 1789 Factories and Shops Act Amendment (No. 2), 2r...... 1791 Pollee Act Amendment (No. 1), returned 1797 Child Welfare Act Amendment, Sr. 179

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 p.m.. and read prayers.