Minute of Meeting at Uig Primary School 13Th

MINUTE OF PUBLIC MEETING AT DUNVEGAN COMMUNITY HALL 16th JUNE 2014

CONSULTATION ON PROPOSAL FOR A NEW COMMUNITY SCHOOL TO BE BUILT IN DUNVEGAN, ISLE OF SKYE, REPLACING THE CURRENT DUNVEGAN PRIMARY SCHOOL, STRUAN PRIMARY SCHOOL, KNOCKBRECK PRIMARY SCHOOL AND EDINBANE PRIMARY SCHOOL

Panel

Drew Millar, Councillor (Chair) Approximately 50 attended the Brian Porter, Head of Resources, Highland Council meeting – attendance list attached – Martin Finnegan, Caledonian Economics not all present signed it. Frank Newell, Caledonian Economics Norma Young, Area Education Manager, Highland Council Ian Jackson, Education Officer, Highland Council

Drew Millar The meeting was chaired by Councillor Millar who welcomed everyone and introduced the panel. Apologies were given for Councillor Alasdair Christie (Chair of the Education, Children and Adult Services Committee) who was unable to attend for family reasons. Also present in the audience were Councillors Hamish Fraser and John Gordon. Councillor Renwick had sent his apologies. Councillor Millar then outlined the purpose of the meeting, which was to discuss the proposal contained within the consultative paper, namely:

• The Highland Council is proposing, subject to the outcome of the statutory consultation process: • To discontinue education provision at the existing Dunvegan, Struan, Knockbreck and Edinbane Primary Schools. • To establish a new amalgamated community Primary School for North West Skye, on a new site in the village of Dunvegan. • To combine the existing school catchments of Dunvegan, Struan, Knockbreck and Edinbane schools to serve the new amalgamated Primary School. • The proposed changes, if approved, will take place within 3 years. plus any other options which those present would like to raise.

A note was being taken of the proceedings. All the comments made at the meeting would be written up as a report. It will be made available to all interested parties at least 3 weeks before the Education, Children’s and Adult Services Committee meets on 12 November 2014 when it is intended the results of the consultation will be considered.

He stated that the basis of the consultation procedure is set out in legislation in the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Act 2010 and the meeting was a statutory consultation in line with the relevant legislation. Advertisements were placed in the West Highland Free Press and on the Council’s website to alert people to the proposal, including the time, date and place of tonight’s meeting.

Councillor Millar informed the meeting that on 21 May 2014 the Education, Children’s and Adult Services Committee agreed to consult on the proposal in the consultation paper. The relevant consultation paper was issued to those potentially affected by the proposal and to other nominated parties and made available to the public at large. Copies of the consultation paper were then given out at the meeting. He repeated the purpose of the meeting and indicated that the proposed changes, if approved, would take place within 3 years. The consultation closes on 11 July 2014. All representations and submissions have to be received by the closing date and should be sent to Mr Ian Jackson, Education Officer, Care and Learning Service Area Office, Camaghael Hostel, Camaghael, Fort William, PH33 7NE to arrive not later than Friday 11 July 2014.

MINUTE OF Q AND A SESSION FOLLOWS

Norma Young I would like to explain the proposal in more detail and give some updates to the consultative paper.

• Section 5.3 – roll figure at Struan – paper states current roll of 4 is actually 6 at present. • Appendix D – re Struan – 2 additional school lets which require to be added.

Those corrections have been sent out by letter and are available on HC website.

• Section 3.1 – Village Hall lets – re Edinbane – says pupils travel to Dunvegan – it states that this happens “generally”. We are also aware that the pupils make some use of the village hall at Edinbane and this has been confirmed by the head teacher. They haven’t made use of this since the end of December due to refurbishments taking place but they do make use of it occasionally.

• Section 3.3 – the publication is correct in relation to the data and it is important to know that any document is correct at the time of printing and that is the data we use at that time.

• Section 3.7 – “B” for suitability in relation to condition score. Robert Campbell, Estate Strategy Manager for Care & Learning at Highland Council, has provided a definition of that and I think it would be useful to read it verbatim. It reads as:

The initial score following receipt of the survey results submitted by DTZ in September 2012 was 60.45 which is a low B rating. The following are the condition score bandings:

More than 85%: Condition A 85% or less, but more than 60%: Condition B Between 40% and 60% inclusive: Condition C Less than 40%: Condition D

The first batch of surveys was commissioned in March 2011 with the final ones commissioned in September 2012. The benchmarking and validation process was ongoing from the time that the first results were received but the bulk of this work took place from the latter part of last year through until after the final reports were received in March of this year (some were delayed for a variety of reasons, including waiting until extensive refurbishment or extension works had been completed).

This was a lengthy process with over 190 schools having been surveyed. The final benchmarked scores were established in May this year and then reported to the Committee later that month.

My only other comment at this stage is that the survey of Edinbane was carried out almost two years ago. As with the other schools surveyed around the same time, there may have been some deterioration in the overall condition since then. In particular, this will be the case where the works identified in the report as being required to “ensure condition B status” have not been carried out. This was one of the factors taken into account during the benchmarking of the scores.

This statement will be available on the website for people to read if they wish. I appreciate it is difficult to absorb all of that information at a meeting of this kind.

Finally, in relation to holding a public meeting, we have had a number of representations asking why we are only having one meeting – according to the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Act 2010 only one meeting is required and Dunvegan was chosen as it’s a central location.

In relation to the consultative paper, Councillor Millar already took you through the subject of the outcome of the statutory consultation and we are clear in Highland Council that the purpose of the consultation is to provide schools which are able to deliver the high quality educational benefits that you can track through having accommodation of this kind. I think it is clear for us to say that through the work we have had with Caledonian Economics a lot of work has been done on this, not just in Highland but across other local authorities as well.

Frank Newell, Caledonian Economics I’m not going to go through Chapter 7/Section 7 in full – it’s a very detailed paper which most of you will have read. I just want to highlight a few aspects of the report which I think will be helpful. When we were doing this work, commissioned by Highland Council, our remit was quite clear. With regard to the changes in demographics and the changes in settings, we have looked to see if the Highland Council is providing the best possible context for education and other ways in which it can be improved. In the discussions we had with professionals we came to understand quite quickly that the word “school” is interpreted in two ways. Please see two slides, one of which deals with the first part of that and the second slide deals with the second part.

Slide 1

Educational Benefits

Arising from pupil/staff numbers: • Groups of similar age and ability • Wider opportunities – sports, music, drama • Social interaction, peer groups • Visiting support professionals • Staff support and development

Slide 2

Educational Benefits

Arising from better buildings: • Fully equipped to modern standards • No need to travel for PE or group activities • Excellent disabled access • Better environment, natural light and ventilation

The days when someone did what I am doing now – stood in front of a class and imparted knowledge which you all learned and regurgitated – they have long gone. Education, as you all know through your relationship with schools in whatever way is different. Children learn in a huge variety of ways and a huge variety of settings. They learn by discovery, by talking with each other, they learn by being put in groups where one is the leader, one is a learner, one is helping, one is a scribe – they compete with each other, they challenge each other. That happens within the classroom formally and it happens in the playground in the social setting of school. Now, it is self- evident that to have all of these settings you do need to have a body of pupils. There is no criticism either explicit or implicit of any person, any professional or any pupil in anything I say. We are talking about educational context and it is quite simply the case that in the very small schools the context is not there to allow pupils the variety of settings and the age-appropriate links that they can have in a school that is larger. That is just simply a fact. Now if you think that is a fact that you would want to challenge then you have to take account also of the fact that we have looked very carefully at the placing requests over the years around this area and of course in reasons that are given for placing requests there are a huge number of reasons. Sometimes it is because parents work in Portree and it’s easy for them to drop the children off at a school in Portree but quite a number of parents have said that the reason that they are not sending their child to one of the three small schools is that they believe that these schools no longer have the number to provide appropriate social or educational context for their children – and that is just simply a fact. It is also a fact that the head teachers of these schools attempt to mitigate what they see as a deficiency by arranging visits across the schools so the pupils will go from their own school to another school to get something that they would just experience naturally in the setting of the larger school. For teachers too, working as a single teacher in a school (I worked in a single teacher department in two large secondary schools and that was bad enough) is an enormously stressful and demanding job. Now teachers generally are very enthusiastic and committed and do it well but nonetheless it is an enormously stressful and demanding job. To members of a learning community, whether it’s two or three or more makes the job easier – someone to talk to, someone to share with and someone to develop the curriculum with to the benefit of pupils. Both the Government and the teachers’ associations are very much in favour of what they call professional learning communities where teachers can come together to develop all that’s best in education. Finally, in terms of this

section it is simply a fact that in Highland Council with the huge diversity and disparity of schools, the visiting professionals spend more time on the road than they would wish and clearly, since these services are given pro rata, having children grouped together in a larger school does mean that more of these professionals’ time is spent in the school with pupils rather than travelling between schools. Moving to the second slide and thinking of the school as a building, you don’t need to tell people in Skye what a difference a building makes – in Portree High School you have a fantastic building which is very widely used by the community. We were told by someone we met that it is sometimes hard to get a booking as it’s so popular. A state of the art facility in which people have all that they need to do the job – they don’t have to travel to get something they need, it is there, well heated, well ventilated, a healthy building for healthy pupils and healthy teachers. Of course the school is much more than the building but if you go into a building where you feel safe, secure and comfortable, where you have all that you need in terms of modern technology and facilities it is reasonable to expect that teachers will be able to work to the very best of their ability and in doing that they will be able to help pupils achieve their potential to the absolute fullest. These are obvious educational benefits and these are some of the benefits that lie behind these proposals.

Norma Young If I could bring your attention to section 4.8 where it talks about learning and teaching general suitability C – that is in connection with the suitability of the building and we cannot emphasise strongly enough this not about the learning and teaching within the school. It is about how one delivers that in the suitability of the building

Drew Millar Would anyone like any clarification of the factual information contained in the consultation paper? I appreciate that some of you are only seeing it for the first time tonight, but for anybody who has read it already…

QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION

Question: Ian Brown, Edinbane Regarding Appendix E: Revenue Costings – Is there anywhere in the document that shows the capital costs and the ongoing interest that would result from the capital expenditure? Is there a carbon dioxide study that takes account of the construction and the sourcing of construction materials? Also of the increased transport costs – will you take account of this? This would be significant – carbon aspect in the new building. What we have here is not a correct capital analysis. There would be ongoing interest that would result from capital costs.

Answer: Martin Finnegan At this time you are correct. There are no capital costs reflected within the paper in terms of what the capital investment requirement would be. The revenue costs as you say are shown in Appendix E. Clearly the capital investment that would be required on the new site would be significant and that would be looked at as part of the next phase of the process. In terms of the carbon aspect, clearly the council has its own policy in terms of carbon. It wishes to see reduced carbon emissions through its investment and again those details would be considered as part of the next phase.

At this stage what you have in front of you is in line with the guidance that applied at the time in relation to this exercise. It is only the revenue costs, you are correct. But in terms of capital what we are talking about is the potential for very significant capital investment to achieve the education benefits that have just been outlined. In terms of carbon, I can’t give you specifics at this time but can certainly give the assurance that the council has a policy in terms of carbon and its emissions and the impact of that will be taken account of as part of any ongoing capital

Question: Tim Davies Could you explain what you mean by the next phase? You are only showing the savings in terms of the ongoing costs. Surely when you decide whether or not to build a new school you need to find out what the costs of that are – what you’re saving and what you’re spending.

Answer: Martin Finnegan There will be a timeline that will be discussed later – to give you an overall timeline of the next phase of this process – but that would be in the lead up to the November committee and beyond that capital costs would be looked at. I don’t know if my colleagues want to say anything further?

Question: Tim Davies Will it be made public before you make the final decision?

Answer: Ian Jackson After this current process finished on 11th July the next stage in the process is that the paperwork and the responses received will be sent to HMIE. They then look at the report and the responses and advise the council of their stance on the process within 3 weeks of receiving the paperwork themselves. Following that the council then have to produce a final report which takes account of all the points raised in writing or at the public meeting and we are required to respond to any material points that are raised in their final report. That final report goes to the education committee on 12th November and we have given a promise to publish that 3 weeks before the date of 12th November, so that’s roughly an outline of the process. In terms of the financial impact and environmental issues that have been raised, obviously these are points we need to consider a response to but I would emphasise that financial implications etc are very much secondary to the overall consideration of the process here. This whole proposal is advanced on the educational benefits and not on the financial points that have been raised.

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane At this point, you say you are looking at educational benefits first and financial benefits are secondary but the price of a new school is very important to me because I don’t see the educational benefits.

Answer: Ian Jackson We will be putting forward our proposals on the basis of educational benefits and that will be the sole basis on which recommendations will be made. Financial implications will have to be covered but they are very much secondary to our case for educational benefits. What we have undertaken to do is publish the paper 3 weeks in advance of the final committee report and we have an obligation to respond to any points that were raised in the paper. So you have raised the issues about finance and we have to respond to them.

Question: Tim Davies, Edinbane I remember seeing there is a declining number forecast for Dunvegan and an increased number for the smaller schools. What’s that based on? Also, if there is an increase at Dunvegan and there isn’t enough capacity, what are the council plans to cater for an increase in numbers because one of the negative things about putting demountable mobiles in is that it doesn’t set the correct context for education?

Answer: Norma Young When we look at any projections as we have here in front of us, they are based very clearly using Highland Council policy.

Answer: Martin Finnegan There is a reference in our report at appendix E which shows the council’s methodology for working out school roll forecasts. It’s quite a sophisticated methodology. It takes into account a number of factors. I’m not an expert on it but it is up there on the council website.

Answer: Norma Young That’s in relation to the methodology. In relation to the second part of your question where you asked about increased school rolls, which as you know is very difficult to predict, every new build that the council puts in place has provision for extension and expansion to it and they are designed in such a way that this is easily accessible because the ground works and so on are designed so that you can add on to the building.

Answer: Ian Jackson Can I just say that in paragraph 6.5 of the paper we say that the new school is intended to be built with 4 classrooms which would allow us a total capacity of 100, so there is a fair amount of capacity already built into the projection with, as Norma said, room for expansion,

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane With reference to Edinbane Primary, the paper says that the school has no gym/PE facilities and has therefore been given a rating of C (only just below B) however it does have the use of facilities provided by the community – Edinbane Village Hall – which is very close to the school. There was

a request by the school for a basketball net and this was put in for nothing for the children’s use. Also it’s (Edinbane Village Hall) been recently refurbished at a cost of £50,000 so it feels a bit unfair to be penalised for providing such a facility. However, if we did have this school facility then I think it would probably be a B rating. Another point is, it says access to the office and nursery is via one of the classrooms. Both my children have been through Edinbane primary and I have never walked through a classroom to get to the nursery.

Answer: Ian Jackson The assessment as I’m sure you know took place in March 2009. The guidance that we are working on in terms of the PE facility – the category C – is defined amongst other things as ”Spaces are often located at an inconvenient distance from each other and there is not disabled access to all curriculum areas. Some areas are off-campus.” So the fact that the PE facility was off campus, according to the guidance, led to a C marking for that.

Comment: Bob Paul, Edinbane It is literally a 3 minute walk and it is good exercise for the children to walk there. It seems a bit unfair that we are being penalised for it.

Answer: Ian Jackson I stand by the assessment that was done at the time. At the time it was done there was no thought in our heads of this exercise, so it was done purely according to the guidance in 2009 and there was no attempt to steer it towards a particular exercise such as this.

With regard to nursery access, going back to 2009 the survey was done by myself with the head teacher and was done honestly at the time when that comment was put in.

Comment: Frances MacLean, Edinbane That is a mistake then in the report.

Drew Millar: We will note your comments and I’m sure you will be putting that into your written submissions.

Question: Tim Spencer, Edinbane Is this the appropriate time to ask about the claim that there are educational benefits for schools with 3 classes or more? Can the council or Caledonian Economics show us data or research that justifies this claim that schools with 3 classes or more are better for pupils? I’m aware that there have been workshops led by yourselves and Caledonian Economics that have come up with such results but I would prefer to see some proper educational, scientific or statistical research that backs this claim up? Caledonian Economics have in a number of places in the Highlands made the case for shutting small schools on the basis that the claim that 3 classes or more are better for pupils. I’m aware that a workshop was done in this area and happened elsewhere. Can you show us the research that backs that claim up because the gentleman is keen to tell us what is fact but I would like to see some research to back up these claims?

Answer: Frank Newell We have done these exercises in a number of places around Scotland. When we started the exercise we were told quite firmly by parents that they had no reason to trust us or our backgrounds, which was a reasonable observation to make, so we said well who do you trust and they said we trust our head teachers. We trust their professional judgement and we said ok, at the heart of what we do will be workshops with head teachers. Since that day, in every location we have gone, we have brought together the head teachers and we went through an exercise with them to discuss what makes a difference in schools. We don’t put words in their mouths and we always get the same conclusion from them. They never talk about bad schools, they never talk about them not busting a gut to do the best they can for their pupils but they all say that being a single teacher is enormously challenging. There is a general consensus of opinion that when you get to 3 classes it makes the difference because you can have the pupils in 3 graded sections, you have 3 professionals working together and usually more 3 because there are always ancillary staff coming in. If you are looking for data then we don’t have clinical data. We have the opinion of the people in whose trust you put your children in every day of their school life. We have the opinions of the professionals in each of the areas where we have worked, who are the most experienced professionals in that area, and while it is not scientific study one would have thought the opinion of the head teachers in an area, and generally across Scotland, would be regarded as a very important opinion and one which carries some weight.

Question: Tim Spencer, Edinbane It would but I feel that data and those claims are somewhat cherry picked on what has been said. I’m aware for example in Wick after one of your workshops that some head teacher actually wrote to the Highland Council to express concern about how one of the workshops was run. Anyone can produce anecdotal evidence and make a claim. I’m sure there are pros to larger schools. I’m also sure that there are pros for smaller schools. Both you and I could cherry-pick data accordingly in terms of what people have said, be it professionals, parents or the children themselves, to suit both of our points of view which are obviously fairly opposite but I would rather see some proper research and data does exist because data from OFSTED that shows that schools with 1-50 pupils are performing significantly better than schools with 51-100 pupils. That’s a very large data set from inspectors with no axe to grind. If I produced data like that I think it would be entirely reasonable for you to accuse me of being biased. Similarly, I think it’s entirely reasonable to accuse some people sat at the front as also being biased as you want to shut our schools, but the inspection data is fairly consistent and fairly clear that smaller schools are doing better than schools with 51-100 pupils. Furthermore, the last HMIE inspection report for Edinbane was a rating of “Good” because pupils there are getting a good education.

Drew Millar: Your comments are noted and I’m sure you will be putting all that in your submission and the people who will be taking the judgement will have the opportunity to read all that you have put forward. I think Frank Newell has already given you the answers as evidenced by the head teachers but is there anything else you’d like to add to that Frank?

Answer: Frank Newell No, I think it is important this is not a game of ping pong. You have made a valid comment; it will be noted and will be fed to all the people making a decision regarding this matter. You know you can cherry pick information and you’ve cherry picked some information from OFSTED and there will be other research elsewhere which will challenge that, but it is important to say we are not talking about shutting small schools; we are talking about creating a small rural school here. It will still be a small school – it will still be a rural school. We are not saying take everyone to Portree as they would do in some parts of the world. We are saying “let us sustain rural education in a state of the art facility in North West Skye”. So, if we were saying take everyone away into Portree there would be some justification for saying we are trying to shut all the small schools but we are not.

Comment: Tim Spencer, Edinbane Can I just make one correction – the data from OFSTED – they have not cherry picked that data. That is from all their area and it’s the largest data set that compares schools.

Answer: Norma Young: If I can just add to that the 1-50 banding that you were quoting would actually give us a 3 teacher school in Highland Council – our pupil: teacher entitlement beyond 48 is 3 teachers.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck There is a great emphasis put on the 3 class system in the report. I think in terms of Mr Spencer’s question it would be interesting for everyone here to hear a bit more about it as the information is a bit scanty. It is obviously very important as it is so much part of this report.

Answer: Frank Newell The statutory position is that for up to 19 pupils in a school you can have one teacher but in Highland 1-15 is 1.0 teacher and it is 1.5 teachers for 15-19 pupils. You have a single teacher dealing with pupils ranging from what in a 7 stream class would be Primary 1 pupils through to Primary 7 pupils. Now, I’m a teacher. Having any number of pupils in a class means you have that number of ability sets so if you have 19 pupils in a class you have 19 different abilities. If you have 19 different abilities from age 5 to age 11 clearly the challenge of preparing lessons appropriate to all these children’s needs is more challenging than preparing for children who are all at the same level. That’s the first thing. If you are able to divide the school into two, there are two people dealing with these pupils’ needs and in terms of the closeness of age and range it is divided and if you are into three then broadly you are in infant, middle and upper and the range which teachers have to deal with, whilst still challenging, is less challenging. If you are in a school with one teacher, if that one teacher has a problem to whom does she or he turn at the point of the problem? If there is a crisis in the school to whom do they turn? In terms of professional development, in terms of work, you all need a shoulder to cry on at some point. If there is nobody

there where is that shoulder? In terms of taking on things in your work, whatever your work may be, it is always better to have someone to talk to, someone to share ideas with, someone to develop ideas with. Now, no one is saying at any point that any of the teachers involved are not doing a grand job and of course pupils in small schools get a good education, or can get an excellent education depending of course on the one person that they’ve got. If they’ve got a single teacher for 7 years and she or he is not very good then their education is compromised. If the teacher is excellent their education will have that dimension of excellence in it. No one is saying any person about whom we are talking is not doing a good job. No one is saying schools are rubbish. All we are saying is that we believe, on the basis of what we have been told by head teachers, that the education context that would be provided by bringing the 4 schools together would provide increased opportunities for the children in their school and would also provide increased opportunities for the parents. I’m an educationalist, I know what I’ve heard from head teachers and I know what I’ve heard from other educationalists, but the document is there for you to read and I’m not going to play ping pong with you because that’s not helpful for me or for you or for the process.

Question: Fiona MacDonald, Knockbreck If there were three classes would it not be the case that either Gaelic or English would be one class where the children are Primary 1-7 – as they are in small schools at the moment?

Answer: Norma Young Where we have Gaelic medium education that can very well be the case and most of that time is spent in the acquisition of the language which you don’t have in the English medium classes.

Question: Fiona MacDonald, Knockbreck But what if there are two Gaelic classes and one English class in the school and the English pupils will be in Primary 1-7 as they are in small schools but they will have a journey longer at the beginning and end of each day.

Answer: Norma Young They certainly would be in one class if that was the case but what we are also talking about is children having interaction with their peers and also the professional interaction for the teachers. So there are several elements in that 3-class structure – one of them is as you have described and then you add on the additional two parts of that.

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane I think there are pros and cons for both sizes of classes. I know my children go to a small school and get a fantastic education. I’m sure they might get a good education in a bigger school but it depends on the teachers, depends on a lot of things. However, this is all talked about as an amalgamation of four schools. It’s only an amalgamation of four schools if the children from the schools that are closed all go to the school that is built. Have you asked people where they will send their children because my children will not be going to a new school in Dunvegan? You can tell me how wonderful it is but it’s not going to help. It makes no sense whatsoever to send my children to school in the opposite direction from myself. I work in Portree – a lot of people in Edinbane work in Portree. Sending your children in the other direction when you’re then 20 miles away – I go to work on public transport so trying to get to Dunvegan and back to work – to see a teacher about a problem or anything like that…..? There is a new Gaelic school being built in Portree. Now if the Gaelic school, which is dedicated to Gaelic, is much better than the Gaelic medium unit, which is the whole point of it being built, then why would I in Edinbane if I was sending my children to Gaelic medium – why would I send them to a Gaelic medium unit when I could send them to a Gaelic medium school? If nobody from Edinbane, Knockbreck and Struan go to the new school in Dunvegan then….. I’m happy for pupils in Dunvegan to have a new school – if that’s what you want that’s great but it doesn’t help us and doesn’t help our community. Already in Edinbane there is a nursery age child who doesn’t go to nursery because for them to go to nursery they have to have a car – they do not, so they would have to rely on public transport so that their child can go to nursery therefore their child can’t go to nursery – and the people who do take their children to nursery have several thousand miles a year and their time to pay for because we no longer have nursery provision.

Drew Millar: I’d like Norma to answer this but my understanding of the consultation exercise is (as read out earlier) – but part of that is for you as residents of the north west of Skye to put in your thoughts regarding the catchment areas or delineation areas which will obviously have to change as well so

it’s the big picture and obviously any parent has the choice of where they send their child to school. I think you’ve maybe made that choice already, I’m not sure, but it is all part of this exercise.

Answer: Norma Young The educational provision if this is agreed – and this is the consultation for that, it is no fait accompli, there is nothing absolutely certain about any of this until it goes to final committee – but the educational provision for the area would be based in Dunvegan. All parents have a right to make a placing request for their children to the school of their choice and that right would be extended to all parents including parents in Dunvegan who may choose to send their children to another school.

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane Wouldn’t you want to know how many are going to go to that school in Dunvegan so you know how big to build it? If nobody’s going to go to it except the people in Dunvegan then why not build a smaller school and save yourself a lot of money.

Answer: Norma Young We would build a school that is appropriate to the size and we’ve already indicated that would be a 4 classroom school.

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane It may be a 4 classroom school but it may only have enough pupils for 2 classrooms. The roll for Dunvegan is falling. The rolls for Edinbane and Knockbreck are increasing. Maybe people will send their children to school in Dunvegan but with the pull of the Gaelic medium school in Portree and with people working in Portree, I think in Edinbane you’re going to be left with the people who aren’t working or the people who work in Dunvegan, which is a minority. I think it would be worthwhile asking people to find out what school pupils would go to.

Answer: Norma Young The standpoint of the council is that this would be the provision and it would be up to parents to exercise their right to make placing requests.

Question: Frances MacLean, Edinbane At the presentation on 3rd March which Caledonian Economics gave us I did ask whether you would actually go out and speak to the parents of young children in the catchments to find out what they would do if the school closed, where they would go? Was that done?

Answer: Norma Young No I have not done it personally.

Question: Frances MacLean, Edinbane We felt it probably hadn’t been so we’ve asked around ourselves and we know of 9 children aged 3 and under in Edinbane, 7 of whom are interested in using Edinbane Primary, the other 2 would be Portree. We asked them, if Edinbane closed do you know where you would go and it looked like there was a very even split – 3 very definitely wanting to go to MacDiarmid Primary, 3 to Portree (one definitely and 2 likely) and 3 to Dunvegan (2 definitely and one likely). So that is one third of the children. You were projecting the roll for Edinbane I think as up to 14 in the next 3 years so you may get 4 children from the Edinbane area if that is indicative. I asked at that meeting for a realistic roll projection to be done but I don’t think that has been done. At the very best you have just lumped together the rolls of all 4 catchments and the very best case scenario is that you would have 66 pupils. That’s already 10 gone from Edinbane so you’d be down to 56. There would be a few missing I think from Struan. They indicated quite clearly on 3rd March that they would be going to Carbost and there would also be some that didn’t come from Waternish, especially where families are working in Portree. So I think you’ll have to have to get a realistic roll projection for the Dunvegan school and that’s not done by just adding together the whole area.

Drew Millar: You will be putting that into your submission I hope.

Question: Claire Stones, Struan I have 3 questions. Firstly, I have 3 children under the age of 4 who should all be attending Struan Primary should it remain open. When you were mothballing Struan Nursery last year I received a

letter asking about my opinions but I have not received a letter about the consultation of the school. People might not check the newspaper or the internet so there may be people who aren’t even aware of this consultation.

Answer: Ian Jackson I’m not entirely sure why you didn’t get a letter but we have an electronic database and a letter should have been sent out to all people on that list. Beyond that I would say that Highland Council has done all that is reasonable to publicise the consultation It’s gone to community councils, parent councils, it’s been put in West Highland Free Press, it’s on the Highland Council website and I think we have genuinely made every effort to publicise as much as we can. In terms of your own individual case, I don’t know why exactly it didn’t happen – whether it was an admin glitch amongst the lists – but certainly as a parent you should have received a letter and we can certainly send one out to you.

Question: Claire Stones, Struan Secondly, have you considered the effects on people living in these rural areas and what happens should you close these schools, because quite often of closing these schools? At present there is a mixture of age-groups but if there are no schools you might discourage families from living in these areas. I’m sure no one wants to see one area in particular of older people – it is nice having a mixture of all age groups and I don’t think anyone has considered how people who have got no families would feel about that.

Answer: Norma Young Yes, we certainly do take account of that. It is part of the process is to ensure that when people move into an area they are secure as to where the educational provision will be for the next 60 years or so. If I can give the community of Glendale as an example, when the children moved to Dunvegan there were 3 children who were latterly in the school and I understand that there are now over 10 children travelling to Dunvegan Primary School. So there is a community which is probably similar to your own where young families are obviously very keen to move into the community yet take benefit of the education from Dunvegan Primary.

Question: Albert Finlay, Glendale As I’m sure you are aware the community is making a bid to purchase of Borrodale School. Actually there were considerably more children attending or of school attendance age at that point in time and they went through a very similar process where they tried stop that school being closed. Glendale once had 4 primary schools and yet there are now none so if you understand the demographics of Glendale so well then maybe you could describe them for us and how the impact of those school closures have actually really impacted on the local community. You are making a judgement.

Drew Millar: I’d prefer to finish the lady’s questions if you don’t mind. You can have your turn.

Question: Claire Stones, Struan When I moved to Ullinish one of my observations is as a working family we were going to have children and part of that was the local school. I thought that was secure and that’s why I moved. Had I known that the future of the school might be in jeopardy that might have discouraged me from moving to that area. You don’t need me to tell you that lots of people move away from small communities in search of work and other provisions so surely it seems a little short-sighted to assume, as the gentleman already pointed out, that I will send my children to a school in Dunvegan. There are other options available to many families. I think it is a very valid point that actually before you go ahead and spend tax payers’ money on a new facility you should find out if people will want to use that facility. Have you considered the effects of unnecessary travel time on children going to the primary school? My children are very young and I don’t want them to have to travel excessive distances to get an education. A mile down the road is considerably different from 10 miles down the road. I don’t want them coming home tired with homework to do.

Answer: Norma Young In relation to the distance, it is in the paper what the recommended distances are and they are clearly laid out. I think from what you are suggesting is that would be within that timeframe for your youngsters to travel?

Question: Claire Stones, Struan What I’m saying is the time to travel between home and Dunvegan is not a straightforward journey as I would make it. There are lots of pick ups which add to journey times. My children are already not getting a nursery education at Struan as this was mothballed. They are already missing out. I do feel passionately about this.

To say that the head teachers and teachers are actually wanting to close the small schools or imply that – I don’t think that is fair because I very much doubt that the teachers in these small schools want them to close. That is sort of what is being suggested by the panel – that head teachers want this. Don’t say it’s the teachers or head teachers that want it. It is purely about you people wanting, for whatever reason, provision to come to Dunvegan. Don’t say it’s the teachers who want it or it’s best for the children because a lot of parents here quite passionately feel that is not the case.

Answer: Norma Young Can I just say that when Frank made the reference, he was just making reference to the facts he was not implying that the head teachers or the teachers were wanting to close your schools. They were asked what they felt the educational benefits were and that was their professional opinion. They were not asked about closing the schools at all.

Can I also pick up on the point the gentleman (Albert Finlay) made about Glendale. You spoke about making a judgement. I wasn’t making a judgement. I was purely giving the facts as I got them today from the head teacher so if those numbers are different from the numbers that you have then these points will be noted. I have also checked the numbers on our database.

Question: Albert Finlay, Glendale The families in Glendale wrote to the Highland Council at the time expressing their wish that the school remained open. The wording of that letter wasn’t strong enough to keep the school open so the school was closed.

Answer: Drew Millar I was around when that consultation was carried out – the same process as we are going through tonight – and I think that you will find the numbers that Norma quoted, i.e. 3 children in the school at the time we went out to consultation, were correct. We carried out the same process and at the end of the day all the submissions were presented to the Education Committee and the committee took a decision that they should in fact close the school in Glendale. I know for a fact, I remember quite a few things still, that there was one gentleman at the meeting who had 3 children but had no intention of sending them to Borrodale Primary. He preferred the education they are getting in Dunvegan at that time. He still wanted the school left open but he wasn’t prepared to put his own children there. So I remember that meeting very well and I remember that point in particular very well because I found it quite amazing.

Question: Amanda Broughton, Knockbreck When we decided to pick a nursery for our child we live in a position where it would have been just the same going to Knockbreck or Dunvegan. We chose the local school because of its reputation, for the teachers and because we thought it was part of the community. You seem to be coming up with a lot of problems that we have not experienced. We haven’t experienced any problems with the teachers. I know you keep saying there is no problem with the education so why are you considering closing them? We have fantastic teachers within these small schools, the inspections have been excellent – very good for both nursery and primary – so I don’t understand how you can come up with the arguments about something which none of us seem to have experienced.

Answer: Norma Young I think you’re absolutely correct that there are some fantastic teachers and you are very fortunate where you are in Knockbreck and in many schools in Skye and in Highland to experience that. I would agree with you totally. You have a fantastic teacher and I note your comment.

Question: Alistair Danter, Edinbane Community Company Edinbane Community Company exists as a result of some very hard work by councillors from Highland Council who fought on behalf of communities to get community benefit from wind farms. As a result of those hard efforts we get a considerable sum of money every year and we are very grateful for that. We use that money for community infrastructure, for soft development, i.e.

supporting apprenticeships, supporting, through Scottish Youth Business Trust, young people wanting to start businesses, to support people from the area to go through tertiary education. On top of that Edinbane Community itself has recently had planning permission awarded for 20+ houses, a percentage of which has to be social accommodation. I think we feel that the decision to close the school takes the case for us 3 or 4 steps backwards. We’ve made good progress with the social infrastructure, my neighbour/friend Bob has talked about the improvements to the hall which now mean that there are good PE facilities for the school and we can do more but this closure will actually knock us back as a community. What I think is fantastic about the school is, it’s not just about people with pupils there at the time, if there is an event at Edinbane Primary these days people will go along who haven’t had children there for years and years. That’s because it is the community school. It’s not the Education Department’s school and it’s not just the school for parents/pupils that are there now.

Drew Millar: Can I just emphasise that we are not closing the school. We are consulting on the amalgamation and we don’t know what the result of this consultation will be, so you’re slightly wrong in saying we have taken a decision to close the school. We are consulting on changing the educational provision. That decision won’t be taken until November and the decision will be based on the facts presented in the report plus, as I have said already, the submissions of every single person who is here tonight and everyone else who writes in will be given to every member of that committee to read. They will then have to take that decision, so there is nothing guaranteed to close the school or guaranteed to keep it open but everybody will get the facts and your comments made tonight will form part of that submission to the committee members.

Question: Fiona MacDonald, Knockbreck We made a request at the meeting on 3rd March for Knockbreck to be considered for red lining and that has not appeared in the minutes which we recently received. I’d also like to say that in the consultation document at point 4.1 there is no mention there of part of the road the children will travel is a single-track road.

Answer: Norma Young If that is an omission from the minutes then I am happy to have it added to the minutes for you. In relation to the distances – you’ll see them under 8.3 – that has been worked out based on the housing round about the area of Knockbreck and you will see that the times are there. The definition of red lining is really where a school would be located with a stretch of water like Raasay for example; or where the children from that community may attend the school residence, i.e. Elgol; or where children have to travel over a mountainous pass – an example of that would be Applecross. These are the definitions of a red line school and none of these particular attributes apply to Knockbreck.

Question: Ian Brown, Edinbane I want to talk about the wider effect of any proposed change. This report seems to be very tightly focussed on educational aspects. It’s been stated by others that there are wider community aspects and I’m convinced of this myself. I’d like to know what account has been taken of that in deliberations to date and what account will be taken if there has been no account of that. Secondly, what account has been taken of Highland Council policies from other sectors of the council? I’m referring specifically to the planning policy which is very easy to look at and they suggest that Edinbane should be kept as a mini-hub for the Skeabost Bridge area and to take away the school is just the opposite of doing that.

Answer: Ian Jackson The paper in Section 10 does discuss effects on community to an extent, perhaps not in the level of detail that you are looking for. I would say though, when you say that the paper was focussed on educational benefits, I don’t think as the Care & Learning Service that we particularly apologise for that. That is very much our focus – the educational benefit. However you are absolutely right we do need to take account of some of the wider picture and community issues. I think they are covered – there is an acknowledgement in the paper that the proposed merger would result in a certain loss of facility for some of the communities, there is an acknowledgement in the paper that there is potentially a loss of focus and identity – so we are not trying to present this in a completely one-sided way. We are trying to present the pros and cons of these arguments, but yes with very much a focus on the educational benefit.

Question: Ian Brown, Edinbane Would you be looking wider into this? The planners consulted very widely and very effectively I felt at the time of the drawing up of the Local Plan.

Answer: Drew Millar That’s right there were public meetings regarding the local plan within the most of the areas it covered. I believe in the next couple of years they are going out to consult on the next Local Plan as well.

Answer: Ian Jackson To go back to what I said to Mr Paul earlier, we have an obligation to consider and respond to any points that are raised tonight before we do the final report.

Question: Albert Finlay, Glendale I agree and I’d like to go back to the effect on the local community because that really needs to be taken into consideration for areas that are so far outlying like Waternish and Knockbreck. Glendale is an absolutely perfect example of an aging population in an area where if there is no children. If there is no attraction for children to live in that area you are effectively cutting off the area from its lifeblood. The kids are the investment that you should be investing in in these areas rather than what seems to be a cut across the board to relocate. The comment is to quantify the impact that it has to the community in terms of demographics, financial stability, population retention, affordable housing. All those need to be considered as they are directly affected by the closure of the school.

Answer: Ian Jackson Some of these are very difficult to predict. Regarding the cuts you talk about, these proposals would represent a major investment in the north west Skye area – an investment in schools and in community facilities for this area. The Highland Council in this document is showing a major commitment to the area.

Comment: Ian Blackford, North West Skye Recreational Association I know that there have been some concerns from parents and the stance NW Skye Rec Assoc has taken on this. It certainly has been put to me from some parents in Struan and Edinbane that NW Skye Rec Assoc are working in tandem with the council on this development. Can I just put the record straight that the trustees of NW Skye Rec Assoc took a policy decision when this first came to light that we would support the interests of the parents in all of the communities in whatever action they wanted to take. So we stand full-square behind the interests of the parents in Struan, Edinbane and Knockbreck. Now that’s not say that we would not welcome the proposition of a new school in Dunvegan. Obviously if we could see the vision of a new school working together with a sports facility and all its benefits that is something we would fully support. I think it important that I clarify where NW Skye Rec Assoc stands on that. Also on a personal note, as someone who has connections in Waternish and a family connection in Knockbreck school, I would reiterate some of some of the other comments on the importance of retaining a sustainable community. Particularly when you look at the school roll forecasts of Knockbreck over the course of the next few years – and indeed getting into a situation where the school would have an occupancy of over 50% of its capacity – I cannot see any rationale under those circumstances why anybody would consider closing Knockbreck school would be the rational thing to do and I would certainly fully support the parents and the campaign they are fighting in that regard.

Question: Willie McGillivray. Knockbreck Can I have some clarification on the council school transport? The paper states the mileage as 11.6 miles from Knockbreck to Dunvegan. Have they taken into consideration that if a pupil gets on the bus at Carnoch it goes right around the Ardmore loop, up to Geary, right round to Gillen, back down and along to Stein and then on to Dunvegan? Have they worked out how long that is going to take? I presume that person would be first on and last off the bus each day as well.

Answer: Ian Jackson To clarify, this would be families who live past Knockbreck school with a longer journey than just going from Knockbreck. We haven’t detailed every potential journey. Point 4 of the paper does say that depending on the location of the home some individual pupils may have travel times that are either shorter or longer than the above timings. This may be particularly true for pupils who

are within the current Knockbreck and Struan catchments. These are guideline figures and they don’t apply to absolutely everybody but we haven’t worked out every possible journey time.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck Can I ask why not? It’s not that many miles and I’m sure you could work it out.

Answer: Ian Jackson Yes I think it could be done but if it was done for Knockbreck it should be done for every community. I think it is a fairly lengthy piece of paper as it is and obviously we took a judgement in terms of brevity and what we were actually going to put in the paper, but there was quite a lot of reading in it as it was so that was the decision we took.

Answer: Drew Millar Mr McGillivray, I’m sure with your local knowledge when you are putting in your submission you will be able to give the details of how long the journeys will be but we don’t know in 4 years’ time – if this decision is taken in November for a new school – where people will be living in 4 years’ time. So I think it is very difficult to give a judgement tonight of how long the actual bus journey is going to be. The principal distances are in the paper for you to make a comment on.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck I would have thought if you are actually moving the school from one campus to another, the very least you are going to do is to say is there is potential for these pupils to have a journey time of whatever, based on where they live. Is there a figure when you say it’s either too late or too long for a journey for young people?

Answer: Ian Jackson There is a figure in the paper that says 30 minutes but the normal principle is that pupils attending primary schools shouldn’t have to travel more than 30 minutes to school, although it also says that that’s not always achievable in Highland because of the nature of Highland.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck So they are second-class pupils then. They will have to endure this for 7 years. Is that correct?

Answer: Ian Jackson There are pupils in Highland who have to travel considerable distances.

Answer: Drew Millar There are no pupils in Highland that are second-class. Not a very nice expression to use.

Question: Ian Brown, Edinbane With respect to whoever put this paper together, there is a considerable amount of detail that is lacking. In something that is going to significantly impact communities, families, parents and most importantly the children, following up on that last comment, how many children are there - 60 children? It doesn’t take long to put together a spreadsheet of travel times. You get their addresses, you put it in Google and you’ve got that spreadsheet and you’ve got the details there

Answer: Ian Jackson That could be done but obviously we could not predict our future pupils and where they may be.

Question: Tim Davies No but you know what the impact is going to be on people at the moment. It does feel that there is a lot of detail lacking. There are a lot of details missing from this. It’s a project for somebody.

Answer: Norma Young I hear and accept what you’re saying but you’ve got to remember that whilst we take cognisance of the community concerns – and these comments will be reflected in the final report – this is about the educational benefits. I hear what you are saying and will definitely note your comments.

Question: Tim Davies But our children already come home tired already. It wouldn’t affect my children but my child was travelling 28 minutes from Knockbreck, if they lived further from Knockbreck it’s going to be longer than half an hour and if it’s the winter on icy or snowy roads it is going to be longer. So that does affect the education that the children are experiencing and should be taken into account.

Drew Millar: We are not disagreeing. Your comments are noted.

Comment: Amanda Munro, Dunvegan I can absolutely see where this is coming from – the negative side and the detrimental effects it could have on your community – but on the other side of the coin, if I were a parent in that situation I would be looking more towards the educational benefits and the foundations that are potentially going to be put down for my children in a much better facility. OK the journey times may be longer but the children’s experiences socially and educationally within Dunvegan would be far superior to what I imagine they would experience in a school with less than 10 children. I just don’t think small schools benefit children socially.

Comment: Helen Danter, Edinbane I take your point that the emphasis of this paper is the educational benefits but I don’t think you can take it out of community benefits because they are interlinked and if it ends up where you have a community with less families coming in or who stay in the community because there is no school in that area then that obviously impacts on the community there. You said that the effects on the local community are covered in point 10.1 to 10.6. Point 10.1 to 10.6 all contain nothing about the economic effects on local communities. Basically what I am saying is that these points are really biased.

Comment: Bob Paul, Edinbane Educational benefits – yes, my children are getting a fantastic education. This plan won’t benefit them educationally at all. They love their school and they get a fantastic education there. Small schools get more teacher time. For some children small schools are really good because they get more teacher attention. There are some benefits from larger schools too obviously, but this will not benefit my children educationally at all and they won’t be able to walk to school every morning as they love to do.

Comment: Frances MacLean, Edinbane With reference to what Mr and Mrs Danter were saying earlier, I read Caledonian Economics report which had quite a lot of information about the different areas and Edinbane I noticed had quite a good population growth, the highest level of economic activity, the highest level of household occupancy, the youngest age profile of any of the catchment areas looked at. I think that is fantastic in a real community and I really think that it would be damaged by losing the school. I think the school is part and parcel of the village and we want to keep that going. Secondly, we didn’t get any answers on the definitive financial statement about what actually the financial impact is for Highland Council of implementing this proposal. Going on the revenue savings we are talking about saving £1200 per pupil per year so that amounts to about £10000, but as a community we’d really like to sit down and talk to Highland Council about ways of saving money while keeping the school. I noticed on Highland Council’s budget consultation blog that there are certain things that Highland Council is suggesting like, for example, slightly reducing the school week. I think in a small school were they achieve so much in a day, perhaps that something we could discuss as well to save money by shortening the week a little bit and there are all sorts of things – if we could have some honest dialogue about finance I think that would be really really helpful.

Comment: Tim Spencer, Edinbane This is just an observation regarding the readiness of the council to come back to educational benefits when people talk about the community contrasts somewhat with the readiness of the council and Caledonian Economics to come up with genuine data that backs up your claims because so far you have not. They’re just going us anecdotes. There is no research that exists to back up your claims. The Commission on Delivery of Rural Education took evidence on school sizes as well and there is no evidence to back your claims. You are selling this on educational benefits and it is bogus.

Question: Matthew Bradshaw What educational problems do you think exist already at Struan, Knockbreck and Edinbane schools and what is this plan for a new school proposing to solve? All had great HMI reports. Also, what are the number of teachers that will be working at a new Dunvegan Primary compared to the number of teachers already available in the communities? There is going to be less but

there are already 2 heads and teachers available to teach the children. You talk about the education benefits but if the teachers are going to reduce per child for the area that is not a benefit, regardless of whether teachers can help each other at this new school. I don’t think that’s a big deal. What about the head teacher situation? There is a bit of ambiguity about whether it’s going to be a teaching or non-teaching head teacher where they can just concentrate on being head teachers. I read something where there was a bit of conflict and head teachers said they would prefer not to have the teaching aspect and would rather just oversee the school.

Answer: Norma Young With regard to the schools’ achievements, I think we have recognised that in the report and this evening as well. Section 7.4 clearly states what the educational benefits would be, both within Highland and nationally, so there is quite an extensive list there and if you want to come back on any of these through the consultation then I would be happy for you to do so. In relation to the staffing, the staffing is always as per the staffing entitlement schedule that we operate in Highland Council and that will depend on the number of children. If you need a copy of the staffing schedule it is available online as well. The number of teachers will depend on the number of children and the staffing schedule specifies these ratios. It won’t be less because you have some economies of scale in the sense that when you bring children together you have enough children to form one class with one teacher. When we spoke about teachers being together we spoke about them being together for their professional development and that is on one site. The head teacher’s deployment would very much depend on the number of children – with teaching commitment if any in accordance with the staffing schedule and the recruitment and selection process of Highland Council. They are all very pertinent questions but some of them I can’t answer because I don’t have the numbers. With regard to problems, we are not saying there are specific problems but we are aware, for example, that children are transported to other schools for some aspects of their curriculum. The part of that we have alluded to this evening is their PE, also parts of their project work and there was a learning community established last year where the class teachers were actually driving the children themselves to larger learning communities. These are factual things that are happening. The Highland Council is not saying that the educational provision in these schools is not up to standard. What we are looking for is to add value to what is already there.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck We’ve been in this meeting for 90 minutes already. That is absolutely nothing in a period of 60 years. We should be here all night if need be and I’m quite happy to do so to listen to the opinions and ask more questions. Anyway, 90 minutes is what a 5 year old might be travelling every day. I would much prefer our kids going with the teacher once or twice a week to a bigger community rather than an hour and a half every day. It’s the community of the future that this will affect. We need to think of them and not just the numbers now, because once the decision is made it is not a reversible process is it?

Answer: Drew Millar IF the decision is taken then of course it is not reversible. This is the only public meeting being held, but please remember you have got until 11th July to make your submission on the matter.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck I’m very interested in this peer interaction. What language are they going to speak in when they are in Dunvegan?

Answer: Norma Young They would speak whichever language they are being educated in.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck So the English ones won’t speak Gaelic?

Answer: Drew Millar I think bilingualism is an advantage.

Question: Willie McGillivray, Knockbreck There is this great emphasis being made of peer interaction but if one lot are speaking pure Gaelic and the other are speaking pure English how does that work?

Answer: Drew Millar

They could teach each other the languages which would be a good advantage I would have thought.

Question: Frances MacLean, Edinbane So why are they building a new Gaelic school in Portree if it’s a big advantage to be bilingual?

Answer: Drew Millar That’s a totally different subject. The answer is because parents have asked for it.

Question: Frances MacLean, Edinbane How many? And we are asking for our school to stay open.

Answer: Drew Millar That’s why we are here to listen to your views.

Question: Emma Shanks, Edinbane There seems to be a lot of talk about support for teachers but I don’t see how that would be. They must get a lot of support in a small school as it is. Yes, they might be on their own during the day but they’re not going to walk out in the middle of teaching the class to get support, so what more support will they get?

Answer: Norma Young The support that we are talking about is continued professional development at the end of the school day when the teachers have collective activity time and so on, which is much more effective to have that professional dialogue with other people than to be on your own doing individual research. There is merit in that of course and it should be a mixture of the two but it allows teachers to come together and have that professional dialogue and support one another.

Question: Emma Shanks, Edinbane But we live in a world now where we can turn on a computer and talk. I just don’t see how being next to somebody will make all that difference.

Answer: Norma Young That’s a very valid point. We do make very good use in Highland of video conferencing and office communicator.

Question: Knockbreck parent (did not get her name) There has been a lot of mention about socialising. The children in Knockbreck have no problem socialising. In fact it is commented on regularly how confident they are, how well they relate to young children, how well they communicate with adults – they are fantastic. They’re great at doing plays and volunteering for things and I don’t see that socialising is a problem at all. I also don’t see visiting other schools as a negative. Also, you keep saying we are not having school closures but as parents and children we are all facing this as school closures. The children are being affected by this. They are very aware that they could lose their school. It’s affecting them now. It’s affecting us now. You’re saying it’s all to be discussed and hasn’t been decided but we are all affected now and if this all goes ahead and Dunvegan school is built, is there going to be any help given to those children who have been affected by this whole process which is going on now? I don’t think anyone has taken into consideration what our children are going through now.

Answer: Norma Young We have experience across Highland and if this was to be the case and that was to be the end result we spend anything up to 2½ to 3 years working with children bringing them together. There is a very robust system in place for transition so if that was going to be the outcome then I can assure you that would very much be in place and that support would be offered to both parents and pupils.

Question: Knockbreck parent (did not get her name) I just want to say it is happening to us all now. We are facing closure. You can’t say it isn’t closure because it is.

Comment: Catherine Matheson, Waternish I live in Waternish but my son attends Dunvegan Primary School Gaelic Medium and I’d just like to take up on Willie’s point about how the children interact in the playground. While you might speak

Gaelic in the classroom and also at home, they would speak English to children in the playground, out of the classroom and if they met out of school. I think the fact that there is Gaelic Medium in Dunvegan hasn’t got anything to do with the new school.

Question: Tim Davies I know I’ve questioned the detail around the report but I’m equally concerned (and I can’t speak for other schools) about the state of Dunvegan school. My question is, if this does not go ahead is there a Plan B to upgrade the schools? Are there specific plans for investment in the schools?

Answer: Brian Porter I can’t say what an outcome might be but clearly subject to the outcome of the consultation and decision that is made in November then the council has an ongoing capital investment programme, and has ongoing targets in terms of the investment we put into schools.

Answer: Ian Jackson I think I’m right in saying there is no specific plan to upgrade a stand-alone Dunvegan school. I don’t think anyone at this table is at a level that would make a decision on Highland Council’s capital budget.

Answer: Frank Newell The schools estate management planning process is what Scottish Government demands of all councils – it is the government that demands the condition ratings and these are rated regularly, which I explained earlier in response to Mrs MacLean’s question. Condition suitability ratings are part of the schools estate management plan that the council draws up and that highlights for the council those areas where there are challenges. The commitment of Highland Council is to attempt to raise every school to a condition B and suitability B in as short a timescale as the investment planning allows. So if Brian (Porter) gets a schools estate management plan which identifies where there are challenges in terms of the condition or suitability of buildings then, in so far as the budget allows, these are addressed. Where Dunvegan would fit on a list in terms of priority is a different exercise from this but if this proposal were not to happen then that is what you would have to revert to – where does Dunvegan sit in terms of priority compared to other schools of roughly the same condition or suitability. So there is always a Plan B.

Question: Fiona MacDonald, Knockbreck I think I’m right in saying that Knockbreck was given the lowest rating in suitability but we had the highest rating for the HMIE report, so there is not a direct correlation between the building and the education our children are receiving.

Answer: Frank Newell Well that is self-evidently the case. What Fiona says is correct but if someone offered to build a brand new state of the art school in any of the locations which are here tonight then, much as people might shake their heads, they would grab it with both hands. If somebody said we are going to replace Edinbane Primary School with a brand new state of the art school there…..

Comment: Frances MacLean, Edinbane No, no, no. We love our school building and don’t want a new one.

Answer: Frank Newell I’m baffled, but that’s ok – I can be baffled at times.

Question: Claire Stones, Struan I think it’s clear that people have very strong opinions on this but to be honest I think it doesn’t matter what I say as you guys will make the decision based on what you want rather than what parents want. But can you just tell us if the schools do close then what are the timescales for moving to Dunvegan? Also if I choose to send my children to Carbost rather than Dunvegan, will there be transport provided to Carbost or is Dunvegan the only option for transport?

Answer: Norma Young If the consultation was approved there would be no merging of the schools until the new school was built. That is certainly what has happened in Fort William and in some of the other areas as well where building programme is underway and the communities, schools, parents and staff are heavily involved in all of that during the whole process. We are aware that at Struan there was

some request about having the catchment area split over the two areas. If you put that in your submission we would be happy to look at that as well.

Answer: Ian Jackson I think the timescale in the longer term is that if the proposal was agreed we are to try to have the new arrangements in place in 3 years from that time. That would involve a lot of intensive consultation with parents about the design and facilities of the new school and then the planning permission and building of the facility itself - round about 2017-2018.

Question: Helen Danter, Edinbane If it all went ahead how is it going to be paid for? Is it going to be a PPP?

Answer: Brian Porter In terms of this particular exercise, the council has a long term capital programme (10 years) that covers this point in time. There is provision within that programme for a number of SDR projects as they are titled so in terms of the expectation that the particular proposal being discussed here tonight would be a traditional capital financed project. That is unless anything changed in terms of Scottish Government support but at this point in time this is the expectation.

Question: Helen Danter, Edinbane So if it didn’t go ahead could that capital be used to do any repairs needed? It would do some wonderful things in Knockbreck, Struan and Edinbane.

Answer: Brian Porter Clearly there would be a lot of conflicting priorities. There is a decision-making process in terms of how the council can prioritise the limited capital it has for its various schools.

Question: Ian Brown, Edinbane There seem to be gaps in the financial side of this. I find it very strange to have a large project that doesn’t have a proper business plan. I’m talking about the costings to the communities, social costs, the capital costs which we covered earlier – they are excluded but in terms of evaluating the project you need to understand these and the environmental costs as well. My question is, will a concise document putting all these wider costs (as well as the current educational costs) be produced and circulated to the people at this meeting?

Answer: Ian Jackson To the best of our ability we must respond to the points raised.

Question: Bob Paul, Edinbane You keep telling us the decision hasn’t been made but to some of us it feels like it has been made. Why has Edinbane Nursery been closed? It’s been closed because you are planning to close the school. Why else would you close it? There are 3 children who could go to it. Secondly, you said the condition of Edinbane is now a C but a little while ago it was a B. Is it the case that it’s become a C because it has not been maintained because you are going to close it?

Answer: Drew Millar I’ve been round a lot of schools in my 23 years and there are schools all over the Highlands which have perhaps not had the maintenance that they should have due to financial restrictions but Mr Jackson will pick up on this.

Answer: Ian Jackson I was not personally involved in the condition report but the advice that we received was that the change in the marking from B to C following the private company’s assessment was the result of a moderation/benchmarking exercise rather than a deterioration in the school since. It was acknowledged though at the same time that there had been an element of time that has lapsed since the assessment by DTZ.

Answer: Norma Young In relation to your first question, the Nursery has not been closed. We would have to go to a formal consultation for this. I hear what you are saying but it was quite clearly shared with everyone through Section 70 of the Scottish Government act that it is part of the consultation process and we were given an extension on that basis. The facts are that we do not have a provision at present – that is not the same as closing.

Comment: Bob Paul / Frances MacLean / Tim Spencer It has effectively been closed.

Question: Frances MacLean Norma, you said earlier that the schools would not be amalgamated until the new school is built. Can I just check, are the schools being mothballed while the new school is being built?

Answer: Norma Young No there is certainly no suggestion of that unless the parents come to us and express that they wish to accelerate the process in relation to their own school. We will not be seeking that ourselves.

Question: Didn’t get his name Are you intending to keep the nursery mothballed?

Answer: Norma Young That’s what we were asked to do by Scottish Government and that’s what we intend to do. We will come back to you on that matter depending on the outcome of this consultation.

Question: Frances MacLean If this goes through will it remain mothballed?

Answer: Norma Young I cannot comment on that until the end of the consultation.

Question: Mat Bradshaw Regarding Caledonian Economics’ angle – the workshops with head teachers etc – and I don’t necessarily dispute that obviously head teachers are in a great place to make judgements – but for something so crucial as these small schools which are so prevalent because of the geography in Highland – you are making out that it’s so obvious that just because you have a slightly bigger school there is an exponential increase in how brilliant it all is. What sort of monitoring of the children is there? Regarding smaller schools – do you currently monitor children’s performance in these small schools and see how they are performing? You make out that when they go to secondary they are like rabbits in the headlights and they can’t socially interact with other children. If this is such a massive problem why aren’t you monitoring it and charting their progress through the education system and get some concrete data? My daughter is getting an excellent education every day – the same as children at Dunvegan and the other schools – and if you do close these schools the council is letting a massive asset slip right through its fingers because where else can you have this 1:1 education for children. I think it would be a travesty if this happens.

Comment: Fiona MacDonald, Knockbreck Michael Russell, the Scottish Education Minister said pupil numbers are almost immaterial if the education is good. I’d like that to be noted please.

Question: Marion MacGregor, Dunvegan I’m a parent of pupils at Dunvegan Primary but I’m also a class teacher. All I have heard tonight is negativity about this idea but as the mother of a 5 year old who is in the school at the moment I’d just like to say that Dunvegan school condition at present, e.g. the PE and toileting facilities, is sub-standard and all I can see is a positive thing happening here.

END OF MINUTE OF Q AND A SESSION

Councillor Millar thanked everyone for coming to the meeting and reminded them that all representations and submissions have to be received by the closing date and should be sent to Mr Ian Jackson, Education Officer, Care and Learning Service Area Office, Camaghael Hostel, Camaghael, Fort William, PH33 7NE to arrive not later than Friday 11 July 2014. The record of the minute will be made available at least 3 weeks before the Adult & Children’s Services Committee on 12th November 2014 when it is intended the report of the meeting plus any submissions and representations received and the view of Education Scotland on the proposals will be considered.