GENERAL CHARLES DOUGLAS HERRON
'l'HE WA'rUMULL FOUNDA'l'ION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT General Ch <:H'le ::; Uu ugla:J Herron
( 1 8 7 7 - 1 ')'!'I )
Gem:ral Herron, the ~>on of a banker who had been a captain during the Civil War, was born in Indiana. William Parke Herron had hoped his son would t;ucceed him in the banking business, but was pleased when he accepted an appointment to West Point !Vlili tary Academy. After graduating from We s t Point in 1899, Second Lieutenant Herron went to the Philippines to ::;erve in the war there, ::;topping off in Hawaii enroute. In 190), he received into his division a new West Point graduate, Douglas MacArthur. In 19)6, Major General Herron returned to Ha waii to talce over the conun and of Schofield Bar racks, and the following year became commander at Fort Shafter. In March 1941, at the age of sixty-four, Gen eral Herron turned over con~and of the United States Army in Hawaii to Lieutenant General Walter D. Short. He then we nt to Wa s hing ton, D.C. to serve a s u personnel officer in the War Department under General George C. Marshall, chief of staff. General Herron reminisces about his military career, the famous generals and ma ny prominent Is land leaders he ha s known; und expresses opinions about the situation in Hawaii on December 7 , 1941.
Lynda fVI air, Interviewer
~ 19 '19 The Watumull l:t'o uuda tion, Oral Histor y Project 2051 Young S treet, Honolulu, Hawaii 96826 Al l rights reser ved. 'l'hi s transcript, or any part t hereof , may no t be reproduced in any form witho ut the pe rm i::;siun of t he Wa tumull Fo undation . IN'l1ERV IEW WI'rH GENEI At his Arcadia apartment, 14)4 Punahou Street, Honolulu 96822 Late in 1971 H: General Charleo Dougla~ Herron M: Lynda IVIair, Interviewer M: Can I start with gettir~ your full, correct nwne? H: Charles Douglas Herron. M: Okay. And where were you born? H: Indiana. M: What were your parents' nwnes? H: Willirun Parke Herron and Ada Patton Herron. M: Was your mother any celation to the famous general [George S. Patton]? H: No. My father wa~ in the Civil War, though. M: Your father was also in the Army, then. H: No, he was a volunteer. lVI: Oh, I see . H: He must have been a preuentable young fellow because in those days when they were all volunteers in the beginning and when the President [Abraham Lincoln] called for three hundred tho u :.:; and vul un teers, why, he wa~ one of them to s tep front and center. 'rhis was , I thought, interes ting: in order to get the adherence of the governors, they had to let the governurs appoint the officers, so when the day carne they had all theoe men and no officers. A hard boiled regular cwne around to mu~ter them in and he di vid ed them up into groups and I g uess my father must have been a promising young fellow because he appointed him first sergeant right a way, put hi~ finger on him and said, "You're in charge." 'rhere were, I think, sixty- five men 2 in a company in those days, so he was put in charge of this company and the officers c~ne along later. He went off to war with that company and c~ne back in due time as the captain of it, so I guess he was good material. M: Uh huh. H: Pardon me. M: That's okay, go ahead. H1 That what you want? M: Uh huh. H: He went off to the Civil War and served four years and came back as captain of his company. In the meantime, the governor had appointed the different officers but they fell by the wayside and he came back. Do you want all this history? M1 Yeh, right. H: (explains occasional stuttering) I'm in the t hroes of the aftereffects of an eye operation. I've been operated on for one eye, I've got the other one coming up, and it hit me hard. I had no trouble of any Jcind until I had this eye operation. It's kind of affected me all over, so I stutter a little bit probably. And I've got the other one coming up on the twent y-third of this month. [See p. 29] But anyway, he was a small-town banker after the war and he wanted me to succeed him but the congressman of fered me an appointment to West Point and he was pleased to have a boy in the Army. So he came in one Sunday af ternoon and asked me if I wanted to go to West Point. Well, I had never conuidered the Army or West Point and didn't know anything about it, but the congressman had of fered him the appointment if he would run for mayor of the town. He was a very popular man. That came out later. But anyway, I thought quite rapidly and I thought, "Now if I take this, I can slip out along the way later if I don't like it. If I say no, it's all over. " So in about forty seconds I said, "Yes," and here I am. So that's the an swer. M: So you went to West Point. H: I went to West Point and I came this way [to Hawaii] first in 1899 on my way to the Philippines when we stopped over a week while we took on coal. ) lV!: You were through at Wet;t Point then. H: I had graduated. lVI: What year? H: Eighteen ninety-nine [1899]. lVI: You graduated in 1899. H1 I graduated in 18<;)9. I wa .J on my way to the Philippines and they tJtopped here to take on coal and I got off the boat and went to the one hotel in town which wa~ down where the old YMCA was, down near the waterfront. I think they pulled it down recently, ju8t quite recently. It was a frame building with screened porches and the mosquitoes burrowed all the way through. The shower Laths were full of mosquitoes, but I stayed there while they took on coal and then went on to the Philippines. lVI: What did you think of Honolulu at .that time? H: Oh, we liked it very much. We walked up the middle of the street in tho .:;e days; nobody ran us down. Fort Street was a~ wiLte a:.:; from here to that wall, I suppo8e, and the sidewalks were about that wide, quite narrow, but nobody used them very much. We walked up the middle of the 8Lreet. 1 remember that. And I remember seeing a good 111uny big Hawaiians, men and women, barefooted walking up the street and, complete ly eager, walking in a store. There were no taxicabs. The street was dusty and I don't think there were any buildings in town bigger than two stories. Some had an extension on the roof--a pretend third story. It was com mon to the West, you know, to build a two-story building and then a frrune like a fal se front for the third story up, and they had that kind of a thing. I don't remember anything taller than that, although when I came back five years later the Young Hotel wa~ built. lVI: Um hm. 'l'hat made a big . . . H: They had a Roof Garden and an orche~tra that played and. they danced there at night. It was the first time I'd heard an orchestra play and sing at the same time and I was fatJcinated by it. lVI: Hqw do you mean, play and sing at the srune time? H: 'l'hey sang while tbey pJ ayetl. 'J'hey had lot8 of good voices and no one was Leir~ exported Lu the Mainland then and 4 while they pl ayeu Lhey :;aug. .[ was quite fase inateu lly that. I wenL up and waLcheu Lhem. I didn't dance becuu::;e I didn't know c.~.nyl>udy. l t :wem E: to me that at that time it was against the .law to dance t11e hula because, a::; I re member, •..m::;avory characte r·s would come to your door and say, "Would you want to s ee the hula?" If you said ye::;, they'd come back about Len o 'cloclc and take you out to some place and some woman wuuld dance the Egyptian belly dance they'd seen at the World's r'air. (Lynda laughs) That was their hula, you know. lVI: Oh really? You didn't ~ ;ee the real hula then? H: Oh no. Some other dance. l 'u been to the World's Fair and .[ reco~~ ni zed Llta t u:; the E:-~ y p ti an llelly dance they put on. It wa:...; again::;t the law Lo dunce the hula then. That'::; when I came l.Jack from the Philippines. lVI: Were people friendly Lu urmy officers like yours elf? H: Oh, very. Yes. 1 thinlc it wc.t[j Lhe first Lime that I met Walter [Franc is] Dillingham. He was on the Governor's Guard. They had hig h :...;hiny boots up to here--stayed boots you know--and gauntlets up to here, and they were having their pictures taken on the :...;tep:...; of the [Ioluni] Palace. I've forgotten the oLher· IIJan' :; nume. He wa::; alwuys very friendly, the other tnau. J go L to know Walte r very well uver the year:J when I c<-uue lJut;J\ ller·e aL different time .::i . lVI: WalLer would hav~ been what, a bout twenty- five or thirty then, huh'? H: Let'::; .Jee. He wau, J :;uppo ::> e, not much older than I was if any. He was a yo unt'; fellow. lVI: What was the Governor' :..: •iuc:tr·d? What wu•: LtwL :._;uppo::;ed to be, just a t:lhow? H: ft wa:._; a ~; huw thing, you know. 'l'hey bud iL Ln the Hawai ian day:.:;. You see, in 1tJ H: And uo they had thi s Governor's (j uar d and they had these hig h gauntle t::.; and thet:le high :...;hiny boots. I'm s orry I've forgot ten the o thex· man' ::; n M: Yeh. It was about 19(J(~ [ thi Hk . H: WaG it? lVI: Yeh. H: Well, I was here that year ami he unJ his wife both died just about that ~ame time and I mis.Jed them. I want to say one thing while we di ::;c u::>G Walter. I was back here just bei'ore Pearl Harbor [December 7. 19LH]. In fact, I wat.i the man who turned tlle place over to the unfortunate [Lieu tenant Generall Wal te1· [D.] ::ihort a nd they had lots of busine~t.i with Walter- - army bu~ines~. In those days we did lots of shipping on the little railroad. He was a square t.ihooter with tr1e goverruuertL. I never ~;aw the slightes t instance of' his trying to sl H: Oh yeG, right away. M: Can you remelllber anything about those or the people? H: Oh, no, but I have around here :3ullleplace, although I c an't find it r i g ht now, a li::;t of people that were invited to my d a ughter· ~ wedding and they would be the people that we knew. I' 11 have to try to think and see just where it is. That would be the list of people that we knew ~ocially. I Jon' t remember j u~rt where things a re. (phone rings) Ex cuse 111e. lVI: Ye h, uh h ult. ( recunler turned o ff and on again) H: I have that list around hece ~omeplace. lVI: Can you remember, huw uid the people entertain you? Did they have t>er vant ~ and did Lh ey d a nce in their own homes or how d i d they en Le ctain you? H: lrJ e ll, they'd inv i Le you to dinner and you we nt to their houses, and then we i nv Lted t hem to dinner. Let's see. We didn't invite the111 Lu dinner· until I came back in com mand, I uppo se . See, I went tllruugh h~H·u on my way to the Philippines. I had three tour::; in Lhe Philippine::;, then I came back in 19)6 in command, fir::>t at Schofield [Barracks] and then at [Fort] Shafter. 'l'he first people to call on us were Frank [E.] and Huth [Richard::;] Midkiff. They were the very first. A nwuber of people catue up there--it was customary in those days--and l!ulled on u:..;, but they were the first people and they invited us to their hou:..;e to dinner and we invited them back up to our place. We had servants all right. I know at Shafter we had a Chinese l!ook and two houseboys. I remember· that because every once in awhile he would g c1 on the warpath with ll big knife and the house boy s would take to the wood:..-;. ( Ly ndu laugh:;) But how many we had up at Schofield I don't remember now. Weal ways had servants. Everybody had servants. I had a Chi nese cook and Hawaiian houseboys. [See p. 29] lVI: I s ee. ;::i o from 11;)04 - -190.5 you c H: Wai t a minute now. I went to the Philippine::; and I didn't come back for duty here until 192~. I came back as chief of staff, T guess, of the division. [General] Douglas MacArthur was here the11. No, wLtjt a minute now. I get mixed up wi Lh the Philippine::;. I came back again in 1903 IJecau::;e thut' s the yeur MacArthur graduated from West Point and he came righL out there und came to my post. By that t ime I was a veteran of the war. See, the Philippine war was on in 1901 when I came out and I took him in. At that time I had a gru.n ::; shacl< of my own becau::;e I was a veteran of the war ar~ l took him in, ::;o we becrune quite friend s . He lived with me at that pout. M: 'l'his was in the Philippine::;, you're talking about. H: This was in the Philippine::;. I was just trying to :..;traigh ten it out. T came back to the Philippines later in 1928 as hi::; chief of staff. He was in command there. That'::; it. J came Lack here in 1)1)6 in command of Scho field. That's straight. All right. M: What was your title? H: I was a major general by that time. Then I crune down here after about a year ami wa:..; in command of the whole place- c.;ommand of all the islands in 19J?. I stayed here until March of 1\)41 when I gut to ue ::; ixty-four and that made me too old for the command of tcoop::;, so I went back to Wa s h ington. A::; soon as I got back there I was put on duty in 7 the War Depart1nent on <1 special job in cormecLion with personnel. I'd alway f; ueen intere::> te<.J in per~:;onnel and I went in there as special assistant to the ch.ief of staff. M: Who was the chief of staff then? H: General George [Catlett] Marshall. I'<.J alway:.:; been i nter ested in ueeing the head of the miU tary' u ubili ty to pick out the be:...;t man and get rid of the poor man, but the Ar my, of course, i u uat:ed on loyalty. The re uul t i .J that if a colonel had a command in those days they had a lieuten ant colonel and for three battalions they ha d three majors. Well, he couldn't bear to give them anything but a f i ne rating, so when the war came on we had four thousand colo nels, all rated top..;. They were just the bu:...;t in the world. So when I got back there and the war cwne on, we needed right away four hundred new generals. We had two thour.;and colonels out of the four thousand rated tops, so the job was to piclt out the highly rated one u who really were tops. As I had been interested in that, picking out the top man, I was immediately put on a small committee of four men to pick out the four hundred gHnerals. 'rhat was my first job when I was there. 'I'hat' s what I was doing in the office of the chief of staff. Mar·:.:;hall and I had been in school together a::; younger fellow~;. He knew me quite well. He had the delu::>ion that 1 was honest and would not spare rny friend.J ur punish my enemie t>. He was a very honest ma n himself'. He was a great man, Marshall waa. And s o, I wa:j one of the men who picked out the first hundred officers for the war [World War II]. lVI: Did you pick the man that Look over here? H: Uh yes. Ye:...;. I hope you don't put that in. (Lynda laughs) No, wait a minute. He was an Air Corps man, Ev ans, and he c~1e up through selection. He was already on the way. [General Henry H.] Arnold was also on the way up. I didn't pick him because he was already a general when the war came on. I didn't pick Arnold. 'I'he Air Corps then, when the war came on, was par-t of the Army -it was part of my command when I was here--and Arnold and Marshall goL along very well together. And when the war came on the Air Corps didn't have any organi zation- - any ::;upply orguni:t.ation. 'l'hey were intere::.;ted in flying, they weren' L interested in supplief>, und it was too late to form a uupply organization, so the Anny had to take care of them during the war- - feed them and supply them. And due to the fact that Marshall and Arnold were top men unJ could gt: t al()ng, they went through the war that way, with the Anuy La king c a re ul' them in an adminh; trative way. And then, when the wctr wa:::; over, they organ i~ed them entirely ·;evu t·a tely. 'L'ho Air· Curp:::; became an entirely ~Jeparate org H: General WalLer ~hort. He hulcl the uag whell the Japane:::;e ce:une in and, of cour:;t:, what happened to Walter- Short was that he wa:J ::.;urprL:ed, ~ tnd that'~> Lhe unforgivable sin in the military--t o be :•uq.>ci::H:!cl. And then of course some body ::;aid, "Hell hath n IVl: Um hm. Could you tell me some more about the years that you were here from 19)6 to 1940? H: Well, let'::; see. l came back- - you :::;ee, MacArthur and I were together. I told yuu that when he grauuated he came out of We:;t Point j_n 1)10) and I wa:_: in the Philippines and he came out there. lVlacArthuc, T think, alway:.J had the feeling he was a man of destiny and his deutiny lay in the Philippine~;. I knew the:3e fellowr;, uome of them, very well--MacArthur and [General Dwight David] Ei::;enhower and Marshall. I happened to know them well. 'l'hey came to me when they were very young. But MacArthur had the feeling that he wcw u man of de:.JLiny and I never got his number a hundred pe1·cent. W<:: were together over the year:::; but he never tolu me all. rl'he othec people told me all, but not MacArthur. What was it you Wil\ed 111e JU S t now? lVI: Could you tell me r;uute more allout the year~; you were he r e? You said you cwne l>ack a11d Luok command at Schofield in 9 19)6. H: In 19)6 anu l stayed up Lhe.t·e a bouL a year until the man who was in eonunand here then, who:Je name was Andrew Moses, till hiB tour was over. Hi:; preueeer;::;or was u man narued Drum who was quite well - know11 out here. IV1ose ~> was not so well-known. Drum had gone away. Herd Did you ever hear anythint, about Drum? (no audi l.Jl e re ~po m;e) All right. Drum was pretty well - known; he wa~ 4uite an advertiser, but Moses was not the same type of 111un. Now I took over for Moses and moved into .Jhafter. I was there two years. rl'he n 1 n Marc:h of 1941 I became six ty-four so l had to cu Lire for age and went tJaek to the States. As soon H: Personnel problems, because I had been over the years in terested in seeing them picking out the right men out of a bunch of duds that got all the fir~ eatings , a s I told you. They had to be loyal to each other, so most every body goL a fine rating. It's hurd to p1ck out who really is a top man. So I'd been working on that and Marshall wu::> interested in thuL. Well, I went directly into the War Department and T'm trying to thinJ{ what I did immedi utely when I got there, what I was doing. lVI: Well, I'd be more inLere:jteu in hearing about your exper iences here in Huwaii when you were up at Shafter. H: Yes. lVI: Can you tell me about any of the things that happeneu, people you lrnew in the military or out of the milita ry, or any storie:..;? H: Oh yes, I :.;aid thut the IVIiukU'fs we re the first people that came to :.:;ee me. M: How did you know . the Nliukiffa? H: T ·uidn't Juww them aL all, they ju::;t carne to call on us. I uidn' t Jcnow anybody, you see , but Frunk and Huth carne to cull on u ::; right away :;o we g ot t · know them right away. And other people came to c:all. T don't r emembe r who they were. Wi s h I eoul d remembet· j .t::t where thut l i s t i"' now. It wo uld l>e invaluable to you becaus e it was the people we invited to my d a ughter·'~; wedJiu(J· whic h occurre d soon after 10 we got back. We ~ ;ent itnnouncemenb.; out. See, I'm nearly blind and I can'L find Lldng::.; ea:;ily. I don't know where that li...;t is but I l\nnw it'u oround. Well, 1 don't know who came be~'ides Lllu IVIilll\lJ'f:; now, buL we got to know peo ple who were sociab! e. We go L Lo know people in a hurry. We went to the Milll\iff:;' t.o dillner soon and other people invited us to their house::; and we invited tllem to our house and more so when we gut Jown here to Shafter. Let's see. I wonder what I've got here. M: IJ.'hat' s okay. 'l'hat' :J oil. ay. H: All right, ~o ahead. M: What ldnd o.r parties diu yuu h..tve at :::;hafter··j H: Well, people danced in those day:..; anJ we had someplace where we danced. Oh, J 've got a little something here I guess that I can put my hands on. (recorder turned off and on again) lVI: Shall I just go down the lit;t and picl\ out a t'ew names for you to talk about? H: Oh yes, that's fine. IJick out any of the names that you want to and a sit me about them. lVI : 0 k_ay . Y e h , u kay . H: Now WC:ti t a minute. 1 've gut to telephone to my daug hter. I'm having her to dinnur Loday hut I'm sure it' s an even ing dinner, not noo11 dinner. r wu.nt to be ::.-mre tha.t. I've not invited her for nuun dinnur. lVI : Y e h • 0 It ay . (recorder- tucrwJ of!' and on u.g ain) H: Fran..lc Coolce Atherton ww; a kindly pt:rson. JVJy fir:..;t asso ciation with him was rather ridiculous. When we came here I had an old friend here, Genera] Wells, who'd been in the Army. He'd been in command here and had impre~:ised every- 1ody very favorably auJ they a s lted him if he would take over the secretary':..; job of the sug ar people' s ass ociation [Hawaiian S ugar Planter ::;' As::-;ociation] and he did and it wau a great Ducceus . One of them told me they'd neve r known anybody to shift from one job to another so quickly and easily and efficiently as he did-- Joe [Briant] Wells. Well, they threw a party, 1 ~ uess for us, a~ soon as we g ot here c~nd I saiJ Lo Wellu, "I want to buy my wife an orchid. She's ne vee h u.d an orc hiJ. " He said he didn't Jcnow, he 'u never boug ht hi~; wife an orchid e i Lher. He said, "See F'J ·ari.k," who wa s aceo ~ >t> 'Lhe room there , and he 11 could tell me where to buy an orchid. So I went over and saw Frank Atherton, not 1\nowing he was the top orchid man in town, you know, but t"1e diun'-L ~ive me any dope. He talked for awhile. Well, the next morning he arrived with a shoebox full of orchi1.h;- - whi Le orchids for my wife--and we became L..t:::t friends from that time un. He was very gentle, genial anu friendly, and I got to know him quite well. He wa~ a broaJ-minded man. He was broad-minded like WalLer [F'ra nci:.> Dillingham] was, far seeing and friend) y and I aumired him very much. This chapel here, I u·nde1·::tand, w<-w bui] t not by him directly but by his relative;; ut'ter he t.tied in his memory. He did not leave the money fur i L [Atherton Chapel at Central Un ion Church]. But he wa:_; a broad-minded, far-seeing man lilce Walter. END OF' SIDE 1/lS'r 'l'APE SIDE 2 IS BLANK BEG INN lNG OF' SIDE 1/2ND 'I' APE M: Okay. Let us continue. [ think we left off on Clark. Was it Henry Clark? ( loug pau~_;e) Well, let' s pick up here with the Cleghorns. Do you remember anything about them? H: Yes. You perhaps lcnuw that there were, I think, two Cleg horns C:d.Jue over here ['l'houta:J and hi:; son, Ar·chibald S. Cleghorn] ami one of Lhem marTled intu royalty. One of them [Archibald S.] married a royal prince~ s [Princess Like Lilce]. A de scenuant of one of' them wrote that book about the Islands. M: Yeh. H: You perhaps remember what her nwue was. I ought to know. M: This one here is Williwn Cleghorn. H: Oh, l knew William, Lut there were Lwu girls who lived over on the Island of Muui and one wa:.:; wild a:.:; a hawk and trained the Baldwin polo ponie~. anu Lhe other was an au thor who wrote a number of very good boolc:.:; about the Is land~. Another one uf thaL triue married into the Army and we know her very well. lVl: What wa. ~ her name? H: Her name was Aina W. OlsmlLh anu she wa::.: the queen of the Kamehameha Day [parade] in 19JIJ. She was ·1 fine - looking i~irl and we bad a mHe:,ni ficent !Jig hor~e. lV!r:J. Herron was 1'~ quite a rider. :~he t:udu the l.Jl ' hort;e as queen of the Ka- mehameha Dcty. But Lhey were 110 t veople of any particular importance when [ wa:·: hun~. ~'haL':._; all abouL the Cleg- horns. [See p. 2yj But this one ~irl Lim L Lrai11ed the Baldwin polo pon ies was quite a ehara(;ter. 'rhat'r3 all about them, I think, except the u ne wltu wcu Le the books. Born in Para- t.li::;e wa::; the principal une that :._;he wrote. [Armine von Tempsky wa~ the author. General Herron has evidently con f u:Jed the C legho cn:J with the von rl'en.p::;kys.] Go ahead. lVI: Huw about IVlt·. unu IVIJ ·:;. lHaylllOILU :;.J Cull? Cull. C-0-L-L. H: 1 don' L _ce~~tember them. [J H: No Lhi ug in partie ular, ex~;ep L they uelonged Lo that power- 1' ul family. lVI: Mr. and IVl n ;. J. PlaLt Cool\e. H: No. 'l'he unly one o1' the CooKes that I renwmber· particu larly wa::; the man who wu:.: the head or it-- of the tribe- unt.l he wa::; the heat.l uf une of Uw Big F'ive a mi hi::; wife, I Lhinl{, wa::; a social leitUtH' nexL Lu IVlr:.::. Dilljngham. But he wa:_; a vowerful 111'-lfl financially. 'l'he whuJ e Cooke family wer·e powerful financially, but you'll fint.l them all the way through. I can't tell you much about them that you COLI ld uue. lVI: Ol(dY. Mr. awl IVlr::;. J e:uue :: Cromwell. H: No. lVI: Crowley-~ H: No. lVI: Now here' :.:: Hem·y Clad; . l t f>ay s , "::i on of my c la::;::;ma te. " li: Son of my c:L.t:::wm ate at. We ~ ;L Point. 'l'lte fathur of thi::; man wa::; a cla:::::anate and Ud ~ • boy here inherits IllUliY of the fine quaJ i ties of hi ~-; faLhec. H1 :J father !tau one of the nicest minll :_; of anylJOJ.y I ever lu ,;w ant.l the l)uy i s a good t.leal like him. You kllOW wlw he i~, pe r hap:.>, nuw- - Lhe lJoy? lVI: um run. 1 ) H: Well, the l'iLLJ·tur wt<..l cl . t:: ~ auaLe l_:_; une of my be:..;L friend:..;. l can't tell you mueh <.tlJout Ltd u l>uy. You could find out more abouL !tim, but l wa:..; ve1·y fu nd of his faLher who wa::; beyond re !JL'Oach in eve cy way. 'l'lla L 's all. M: Okay. How a bout Mt·. au<..l IVJr .J . Cy r il [Franci ::; ] Damon? H: [ ju:3L liott' L ltnow muelt about Lhe U<.unon:_; at all. I think Lhey 1 i ve<..l do wrt on tha L big u : ~ La Le where the big tree:_; are [ IVloana Lua] and 1 j uu L never lw!Jpene<..l to know any of them. lVI: Okay, we'll sl<:ip thaL c•·roup. Let':; m~e. Mr. and Mrs. Al<-Ht [:3. J Uctvi::;? II: J'm a::lu.uued Lo ::ay Llt . .l. I J'oq:.uL .tlHJUL Lhu111. He wu:: a very g oud m:.tn but 1 t.:d.Il' L reme!ltber· about !tim nuw. lVI: I thin!<: I'tll going to be uble to inLerview him, :::o I'll probably get that all :-;traigh te ned out. IVIr. and IVIrs. Har- old Dillinr,ham? H: I almost never saw theut, ::.rtrange to suy. I l<::new the other brother very well. lVI: You did? H: Ye~:. lVI: Which brot!tec do you mean? H: WelL, Walter. I l<::n ew him quite well, but the one yuu speal<: of now, he ulmo~;L never cwue around. T don't know anything about him. lVI: When you ':-)cty Walter, you mean the one that'~ o marr.ied to Loui :::e [ Gaylord Dillin:.r hum] und Ltved down on Uiwuon<..l He ali? 'I' hu t u nu ? H: Ye:.;. Ye:::, I know him 4.uiL <:; well and, by the way, I've got some Lhing abo ut him whi eh I've always ill Lended to read. Have you, <.tL your [WcJ.Lumull] Foundation, facilities for reproducing ? lVI: Yeh. H: Well, I will give it Lu you in eCJ::;e. If you want to keep it, I'd like to have a r·eprodue tiult of it because I haven't rea d it yet. : ;omebody gave it Lo me. I wa~ quite · a friend of Walter ':_;, J 'd Like to read it surnetin1e . I have s ome boJ.y to re <.ttl · L to me. 14 lVI: Sure. Well, I L~ ould ju::L L..tke i.L und reprodut.:e it and mail it buck to you. H: You will r·e Lurn i L to rue. lVI: Sure. ( cec.:u1.·der Lurnud rJ.l'i' u nd on again) H: She h<;td tru U ed a great deal and Walter would be there alone. IVly wi l'e wa:.; q u.i Lu a rider und u::;ed tcJ enjoy going out. He would let her ride his be::;t polo ponie::.;, his ::;talliow> and so forth. He liked the girls but my wife was not the type he generally liked--she was 1ntellectual --but he liked her too and they were good friendu. We wouLd come uacl{ ltere af Ler the war- - ufter Pearl Hurl>or- -amt we alw;ty. ; :il.CJ!Jpud at Lhat hoLel down on the IJeach, righ L 011 Lhe !Jeaelt. I' vu forg ot ten i L. I L' ::; utill there. lVI: Royal Hawaiian? H: Oh no. 't'he one that's open-air where you eat right next to the water. lVI: IVIoana? H: Oh no, that isn't it. IVl: Halekulani? H: Halekulani! Well, Wa lter would come down and have break fas t with ut; and alway:..; bring my wife white orchids. While I say she's intellectual, he lH:eu her a nd I was perfectly willing to have him like her. He would come ev ery morning to have brea){fast with u:::: when we were in town. We came several time::> af ter the war. lVI: After you'd gone back to Wa::; hington. H: After we'd gone !Jack to Washington, ye~;, we carne and vis ited here. M: When did you come IJac){ Lo ~; Lay ? H: l•' o ur y ear::; ago whe n Lhey bu_i..Lt th i ~ ; place [Arcadia Retire ment Re::;iuenc:eJ we Cat11r~ l n cl\ on account of my d c.t ughter. I never s hared WalLer ':; 1 i IJuca l v.i.ew::; about the ladies (Lynda laug h ::: ) but, otllt:rwi::>e, we we re ve1·y much in ac cord. I like d hi ~'> boldness . 1 n t hose days there were the Big Five and he didn't 1J e Long to it , so h e 'd fig ht them all collec tively or .:; iJW:IY and Lhey had a wh olesome re upec: t for hi Ill. When r wan ted Lo do a ny thing t h at af fee Le d 1 ') the community, I alwa,y::; talked Lu him firut in re::;pect to the community. And Lhe fir::.~t Lhing they'd say, "Well now, what did Walter say '? ·· before they'd want Lu Vlll<. Well, I got ::;o that 1 would alway:J say, "I haven'L talked to Wal ter yet ·tbout it," .in ocder to t~ et Lheir· unbi a:_;eli opinion. But they had a whole::;ome re::;pect l'or him and he'd fight them ~:;ingly or col lee Ll vely. My wife and I were I.Joth rid e c~.: aml uo we code wi Lh hlm a goud deaJ . M: Did you play polo? H: l did noL play polo, nu. I was not a polo player. When we would come back, hH 'd H: When I fir:..;t came to Lown in 1931. He cwne to see me right away and we both liked hor:..>e:J and I liked his way of doing business. In tho ::;e day:J the little railroad shipped a lot of freight out for the Army and, of course, while I liked him it was my bu.:Jine::;::; to watch him. I watched any body that had bu::;ine:..;:..; with the Anny, but [ never saw him try to get a single ct~ nt out of the Army or out of the government. He was a loyal and perfectly square-shooter. 1 watched him in a bu::;ine:..;s way all the time. He was pretty darned good thaL way. He was a patriotic citizen. Well, he wa~; a keen figh te1·. Any of the Big F'i ve would tell you that. 'l'his w.ill interest you. You perhaps know the Walkers here. Well, one of Lhe ;_;e Wal keru is Walter'::; illegitimate son. I'd been here a year and Walter Dpolce one day of havir~ given this fellow two polo ponies and I said to him, "Who ir_; thi::; fellow that you've given two polo ponies Lo and why did yu u give Lhem to him?" He said, "Don't you know?" I :;aid, "No, 1 don'L luww." "Well," he said, "I believe you." Ht:: Loul< my word for things. "Well," he said, "that spealcs awfully well for· Honolulu." He said, "That fellow'::; my ::;on." Nobody had ever told me that and I had l.Jeen here a year. No gu::..::_;ll> ever carae Lu me about that fellow being Wal tf·r' r; illegitimate son and I think it'::; fine. lVI: Uh huh. H: He wa::;, I gues~;. rect:::ived every place. 'rhere was never any que::;tiun about it. ~~alLer had given him two polo ponie::;. I thinlc it'G fine and very .intere :;ting. But nobody car ried the bad news to me. Nui.Judy. I don't suppose to my wife [either] or ::;he probably would have mentioned it. It's different from wo::;L town::; that way. 16 M: Yeh, take thing:.:; mor·e . H: Ye:::;. I uiun'L mLnu hi:.:; liking my wife. I was glad he did. (laughter) Well, go ahead. I got off the subject. M: Let':::; uee. Dow~;eLL~;. IVlr. and !Vlrs. Herbert Dow s ett. H: Oh, I don't know anything of interest about them. M: Okay. H: I've forgotten. 'rhece we:w but I've forgotten. lVI: Dyuon. Harold Dyson? H: He was a plantation manager but he was not communicative. I never talked. much about it to him. See, I was interest ed in plantation managers because they knew the feelings of the Japanese. I perhaps told you last time about that, that nobody in town except--now I've lost his name again- the one mdn knew whether the young ,Japa nese would be loyaJ or not. 'l'hi s man wa:J the chairman of the board of regent:::; of the University [of Hawaii] a nu he was the head of one of tlte big trust com!Janie u hen: unu he and his wife had lost their only child H: Oh, I can't add anything a bout him. JVJost everybody knew him and I knew him, or courue, a nd he was fairly austere and friendly and everything, had ever·ything in appearance. Now wait a minute. This is Joueph. Wait a minute. Are there Lwo Far ring tow; there? lVI: Well, let'~ see. Yeh. Well, there's Mrs. Wallace [Rider] Farrington, who wc.w tho mother of Joseph, and then you've got Joseph l"arringtott. H: Now waiL a minu Le. Wh<1 t Joe:_:; Lt uay about Joe Farrington? lvt: Vit.;e - pre::;iuent anJ t::uuul'd.l manager, Honolulu S tar-Bulletin; 1 'I influential HevubliL:an :;ena Lor. H: I'm trying to thill..l{ r. Who is the man who owned this place here [Arcadia], where this building is? Do you remember? lVI: [Walter Francis] F'rear. H: Oh, I'm thinking of Mr. li'reur for a minute. Oh, Joe Far rington. Ye s , I. knew !ti m and quite well. lVI: He>w did you i{now him, tht'OU!''h Lho new::;paper thing? H: Well, [knew him I.Jec a u:;u he beJone,ed to the same college fraternj ty thut 1 bel JCtg ed to itnd when I came here, he and some of the reut of Lhem organil.eli a dinner for me and we had the dinner and he was friendly and cordial. And then, when I went back to Wu ~-;td n~J; ton, he wus there and he came aroumi to the houue. Wu had him to the houue but only so cially. But I thout;ht he was an able, honest man and knew his businesu, but I ~,_;an't tell you much more except that he was friendly and I thought he wa::; a good citizen. I can't tell you anything particular· about him. M: What fraternity was that? H: Beta '1'heta l'i. 1 liidn' L like hi:; wil'e. She wa:> a newspa per woman who captured him wlten he wa::; a student in col lege and uhe wau i::l!Hbi Lio u:::: and, I thought, un:;t..; ('Upulous. 1 think she'::; still alive, back here now. [Elizabeth Pru ett Farrjngton]. But he was quite a different character and she was pretty to ugh. ,Joe was ve ('y ntuch of a gentle man and an able fellow. lVI: Okay. Did you know Lhe Freurs? H: Did I know them? M: Um hm . H: Only socially. 1 cwue to thi ~:; house when they were here. 'I' hey didn't entertain very hig hly l>u t a few people were here. And there wa s a club ~._;alled, I think, the Social S cien~,_;e Club which diucus::;ed ma tter:..; of social s cience a nd I was an honorary member becau::;e I wa::; commander here and we met here two or three time :..;. I liked him very much. M: When you were here, what wuu your full title? H: Well, I l'il's t wu u Lhe coiumande r of the division a t Sc ho field, all(.i then I t..;i::Uuu J.uwn here and was the ~,_;omrnand e r u 1' liJ the Hawaiian depart111e n L . M: Department, of the Ar·my? H: Yes, the Hawaiian d8partment. Yes. And I would have been in command of the whole thing, as Walter Short was, when the Japane:Je came if I hadn't gotten too old--got up to sixty-four that same year. I fortunately wa:-:; tak.en out and Walter Short came in and suffered. lVI: Urn, I see. I j u~;t wanted to be ~ ;ure I had the right title for you. J-1: Ye ::; . I wa:; commandirw: i':eneral of Lhu Hawaiian deparLment c.1L Lhat t i.tuu, yeu. M: Okay. Why did they call it depar·tment? H: Well, the Army called the major :;ul>d.ivi:;iun:_; duparLmenL:J and thi s was a department. There wure ni11e dep e:u·tments on the Mainland and this was a deparLment and I think it was a choice department. It was the best thing the War De partment had to give and I was fortunate in gettir~ it when I came. It was the best gift the War Department had except to be chief of staff of the Army. At that time they were General Marshall and General MacArthur. lVI: MacArthur. H: And they were completely out of tny class. If iL had been offered to me I wouldn't have taken it because they were ~:>o much better than I was. I !~new them a:_.; young men quite well. L u·o t this job here, which was the bet;t job they had to give outside of the chief of staff, so I happened to be here. I also was fortunate enough to get out (Lynda laughs) because whoever is captain of the ship when it goes on the rocks, no matter what the circumstances are, he's out of luck. So Short was out of luck. All right, go ahead. lVI: Here's some names I don't thirtk we need to go into. H: Pardon me. lVI: Yeh. H: This wife of Joe Parrin~ton's t r ied to get control of the newspaper after Joe died. I don't think she ever achieved it. rrhey kept her o u L :Jome way or other. I thin!{ :_;he really was entitled to the newspaper but they managed to keep her from getting cuntcol of it. There wa:J some shady 1 1.) busine::;s, 1 t:hirll~. tu keuy h-=:1· from getting it. Nobody liked her, L.tpparenLly. All r ight, go ahead. lVI: Okay. How about Heverettd and IVI.r ::; . Henry [Pratt] Judd? H: Well, like ulJ the .Julld u , L!tey were good people. 'l'hat':..; all I can ::; ay al>ou t them. I can't tell you much in detail about them. lVI: Okay. H: I've forgotten what Henry·~ specialty was. Wasn't he once governor? lVI: No, Henry wa r:> a minl ::; Ler, apparently. H: He was what? lVI: A minister. It sayu, "A :;:>ociate s e c retary, Hawaiian Evan- gelical " H: I can't remember anything about him. Albert [Francis Judd] was the only one T knew well of Lhe Judds. lVI: Yeh, he wa~ manager of the Bi s hop E::;t'Lte. H: Albert wa:...i? lVI: Urn h.m. H: Yes, l knew him quite well. lVI: Uo you re111emuer any guoll ~torie ::; about hirn? H: I remember thi~ all right. Do you just want a story? lVI: Yeh. H: 'I' he day after I c ame II ere, I went to cull on the governor, which was a custom, a: L noon and the off ice was closed. In those day::; they opened very early and closed at one o 'cloclc, :..;o I called Oil the governor at noon and I didn't want to gu hack at twelve-thirty so I :...itopped at the [Bishop] IVIu:..;eum and Albert wa:_; running the mu ::; eum in those days. I hup!Jened tu r·un into him. He was quite pleased that the new general wa.; interested in the mu::;eurn. Oh, I had looked it up, you know, and I could tall<. about it. I told him of my ambition to :;ee the mu~ewn and uo forth, and what fine work they hall done, and he was quite pleased ::;o we becallle good friend:; right away. JVIy wife was inter ested in ::;uch thing .;:; and we wallced around with him and he .w showed u ~ u lot abou l the cou ntry, like the pits. There are some in the hi 11 !> buck of Punahou School that the no bleu would Jig about Llw ;j i~ e o f Lld u rug and would fjay to one of the native men, "Now you fill this with ::..: undalwoud by the time the China ~;hip come::..: in. I'm going to sell .1 t to the Ch.l nwnen. I f you don 1 t, you • re going to be knocked on the head." 'rhe r-eI ce u number of thelll around. That was the method of getLing Lhe nc:1Livu :; Lo get out sandalwood. And there were some of tho ~;e thirJg!~. Things 1 ike that, you know. So I got Lo know him qui Le well and he knew all about the plunts ctnd everything lil H: He wasn 't miffed a bouL iL, nu, IJe cuu s e I'd pulled the wool over his eye::; by writing u letLer which seemed to be per r~ctly frct~l and open out wasn't. (laughter) Things like thaL. lVI: Yeh. Well, that 1 s inLece:..>ting . Let 1 u see. Ho w about Mr. a nd IVJrs. Samue l Ke mp? H: Now wait a minute. 1. 1 M: He was Chief Ju:; tice oJ the Suvrerne Court here. H: About all l cdn Lell yuu about him: he had a sparkling, red-headed wife. (L..Lughter) [lilted them both, that•:-; all. Go ahead. lVI: Clifford Kimball. He wa ::.; the owner of the Halekulani [ Ho tel]. H: I can't tell you. I forget. lVI: Okay. IVlr. and Mr::.;. Addison [Erwin] Kirk? H: No. lVI: David Lar~;en'? H: Was he a doctor? lVI: No, thi::; is the vice- pro::;ident or C. Brewer [&Company]. H: No. lVI: How about Nils [P.] Lun;en. He'::; Lhe doctor. H: Nothing, except he wa:j out:_; Landing a::; a doc tor and a good man anJ has a s on who, _[ thi nl<, has just come back here, retired from the Army. 'J'he son i:._; culled Swede Larsen [ Lieutenunt General S tanley f{o Ler t Lar::;en], who everybody liked at West Point and in the Army and has done very well in the Army and dec idcd to co111e bacl<;: here. He's perhaps on some duty, but he'~-; about to ret ire and come here to live. He I::; a good man. rrhat I s all. [ !:) ee p . JO J M: Okay. Reverend Horace [H.j Leavitt? H: No. lVI: Oren [E.] Long? - H: No. M: IVlr. and IV!r s . Haw3 L '0 range? END 01" SIDE 1/2NU '1'APE H: . . . to Le grown here l n eme 1·genc ie ~; Lo supply food for the Army if we wer·e cuL ofi', you lo1ow, by seas. (long pause) 'rtwL '::; about all. M: Okay. IVlr. and JVIr::;. F'rederjck Lowrey. ~2 H: One of the Lup ciLiz.urLi, u ne wo could depend upon in the event of cut emergency u r any lc i nd. We rated him very hig hly. 'l'he whole Luw 1·uy l" tuu.ily were that kind of people. We felt that we couJ d eall on Llteut in the event of war to do mo:.;t anything wu wanted Lhom Lo Jo. lVI: Uh huh. rl'he fattwr w u ~; pre ::.:.iJunL ul" Lewer:J & Cooke [In Col·pora ted] dnd the ~ ;un wa:..; vice - p!·c :;i dent. H: Yes. lVI: rrhey really had thaL .:ewod up, Jidn't they? H: Well, the fa tiler wa~.; the top ut H: Martha, yes. She was a fine young girl. I remember her quite weLL a nd Jimmy 1;reenwell 1 l"eLueulber very well. Go ahead, plea::;e. lVI: Mr. and Mru. Harold Lynn. H: No. lVI: Nlr. and IVIr :.J . Hobe r L IVI c: Curr l~; Lon? H: Nothing much, except. thaL lw wa:; ;.1 top c.i. ti:t.lHl and could be depended on ln time of war to give everything to the government Lhat we calle J on him to do. He was a very good man. 'rhat' s all T can telJ y o u right now. lVI: How alwuL t;corge McELdowney? He wau a fore:JLer, huh? You uaid, "S upervise d ::::c hofield planting a nd helped the Army." H: Very much :..;o. lVI: What wa:..; the Schofield pi unting? [:::; thi t.: the vege table:.: a nd t td ng:.:; that you were tt·y ing Lo grow? H: Ye s , uut mo s tly tr.ee:>, tho ugh. lfe could be d epende d upon to produce anything we needed i11 Lhe way of timber, lwn uer, in Lhe event oJ wac and au utuch uu thoug h he were un army officer. We all h.new hi m a nd a dmired hiru. lVI: Well , d Ld you ha ve a ru~Sulu.r· trtt farm going or some t1 ing ? H: Y e~;. Hu cai~;ed many y u un~, Lre e .; und pla nLed trees whet·e Lhey were needed. Did a loL of !Jla nting. 2J lVI: Where? H: Around the edg~s ot' Ll1u .. Well, have you ~een arour~ Schofield? IV!: Yeh. H: Planting of these Lall ~Lraight trees from Australia. lVI: Eucalyptus? H: Yes, which he produced and pI a11b:!d. Thing~ l ik~ that. He was ju::;t a good forester, that':; all, and we had ~ntire confidenee in him. Very guod man. Otherwise, I can't tell you much about him. lVI: Okay. Remember anything auout the IVIcinernys? H: Yes. I stood very well with th~ IVIcinernys uecause I was one of the few people who could tell them apart from the very first day. lVI: 'I'hey were brother~. William and James? H: Yes. 'l'hey t>oth were in the [Mcinerny] store in those days and even WalLer Dillingham, who wm; a boy wi Lh them and brought up with them, uaid he couldn't tell me how he knew them apart. It wa:; a l'eeJ ing. (Lynda laughs ) He took me in there and introduced me and from the very first day that I saw them I could teJl them apart. Tt wa:::; a trick. One of them had h<.J.d his gla:..; ;:; e::; repaired and right here Lhere was :-t little bit of repair. 'l'hey d:idn't put an en Lj re new pieee, they mended it and there was a tiny gold band there. That was ~Hlliam. (Lynda laughs) I spotted that. The word went around that the new general was smart because he could tell the JVJcinernys apart, you know, and I thought it was good for the Army to have people thinJ( the general wa:; smart, so I didn't tell anybody, even Walter Dillingham. 'I'he word went around he could te U the IVlcin ernys apart so everybody said, "Well, he's a ::;mart boy." (laughter) 'rhey liked me on that account too. 'I'hey kowtowed to me every Lime I c cune into the ::; tore, and invited IV!rs . Her ron and my~elf to dinner right away. IV!: 'l'hey were uoth bache lor:..;, right? H: 'l'hey were exactly alike to the la:..;t freckle, to the la::;t wisp of a reddish- gray hair, you know. Just exac.:tly. But one of them had this little band right there. 'I'ha L wa~ William. ( laughtt:r) [ t helped Lhe reputation of the Army and so I kept it tu my ~ ;elf. I 'd uay, " l ~ood morning, Mr . William. Good morning, Me. ,Jim" when I went in there. M: 1rhat's good. Let' :..; ~ :ee. lAlfred] Le:..;ter IVIal'lcs? H: No. lVI: ,Judge and IVIr ·:>. Edward IVIu~; ~ ee. H: 'rhe na me? M: Massee. M-A- S-S-E- E. H: I've f'orgott8n. M: I'll s kiv over the Midkiffs because I'Jl be talkir~ to them. [Rever·encl rr·tkie] OkullllH':t. Sound.s kind of interest ing. H: Now wait a minute. JVJ: Chri s ti an mi ~;::;ionary i'rolfl Japan, founder or the New Ameri can Movement, whatever Lhat was. H: Well, let rne thin!c about him. (long pau:.;e) I can't say much about hi111 excepL that he wa:; the outstanding Japanese man in my time and 1 Lhink thaL hi:; advice to a ll the Ja panese wu :; tu be loyal tu Lhe Amer-ic u ns. I wau much irn presued by hirn but I L:un' t tell you anything else about him now. I was quite impressed by him as being an out s tanding man. lVI: 1 wonder if he's sti.ll alive. H: Oh, I wouldu' t think :..;o . M: He was older tha n you then. H: He wa s a prutly old ma n then. He wa:~ pretty well along becau:.;e I a: :ked abo u L him. Hu w ~t:..; quite a f e l l uw. lVI: Judge Pet er~ ;'? H: No. M: How about Governor lJo:.;e ph Boydj Poindexter. H: Hnun. (long puus e) WeLL, he was a mou s y little ma n. (Lynda l a ug hr;) My wife had t o siL next to him a t dinners artd she final ly hi t un Lhe ~:ubjec t of fiuhing a nd then he would talk, he had :..;omettd nr_ to :Juy, but that was the lHlly 25 s ubject she ever go L a ny <.: unve n mtion out of him on--on fishing-- (laughter) ;ju s he'd bring that up. 'rhe Army bamboozled him in Ln decluri ng ma rti ul .law r · ght away [on December '7, 191-1-1]. He ~ ;hould noL have been bamboozled. He was led around by the noue by the Army. lVI: You were COlltmander, thoug h . H: Oh no, I wasn't the comHt<:tnuer. I'd gone by that time, you see. I had gone but they went around there that afterrwon and told him all kind~; or Lhint•. :_; alJouL the need for mar tial law. 'l'hey didn't need it at that time - -they did not, but he gave them all Lhe power. 'rhe civilians should have retained the power. I mean, the civilian people were loy al here; they didn't need Lu be pu:..;hed around by the Army. I woullln't have pu::;heu Lhem aruuwl, tJuL they went in there and banged on the taule and uo forth auout the dangers and all that and he, instead of ~-:;aying, "Be quiet now, be qui et. What's the danger? Where are the Japanese?"--they'd been going, you know- - he ::;igned up. Well anyway, that's what I think about him but he was a very nice man. I've said a good deal there but I hope it will not be p!,!blished. (laughter) Of course he meant no harm. What I've tolu you I think kind of describes h1m. He was very kindly and 1 liked him but I don't think command was in him. Well, that'u about all. lVI: Okay. I'll be careful when 1 wri Le thi::; ::;tuff up, you know. I 'rn not going Lo use anything that '11 embarrass anybody. H: He's got a living dc.tughter :.;ome place tttat I don't want to burden unnecessarily. I don't know how to describe him when you write it up, except to say he was not militant or aggressive. I think you could describe him that way. He was not an aggressive mun and not militant and he yielded his command to the Army perhaps unnecessarily early. Some thing like that. Perhap::.; unneces sarily soon becau::;e the Japs never carne near this place again, you know--never did --and the civilian::; might ju::;t a:; well have run it. lVI: Yeh. (laughs) H: Which is treason with an a.rmy officer, of course. lVI: Yeh, right. I think it's greut that you look at it that way. Let • s see. Rentons? Ceorge [Fullerton] Renton. H: I don't know anything about him. Nl: Olcay. JVIark Hobin:.;on? H: No. M: Erne~t kos~. H: No. M: Guy Rothwell? H: Spell it out, will you? M: Rothwell. H-0-T-H-W-E- L- L. H: Architect, wasn't he? lVI: Yes. H: Yeh. He ,ju:.:t died recenLly. He wa:..: a k e:.uuaa ina, an old timer-, and an excelJt-Hlt man; would have been very u:..:eful to the Army in time uJ' war wi L!l much biduing to du. We leaned on him, thoughL he would be very u::ef'ul in time of war. That'G all. lVI: Did you u ~e him at all, though, while you were here? H: As I ::>aid, I was not lte1·e. 1 don't know wheLher they used him or not. lVI: Okay. Gu:..:Luv Schaefer? H: No. M: Alvah [A.] Scott? H: No. M: O:..:cur Shepherd. J-1: No. M: Philip [E.j Spalding. H: He was the head of one o J' the Big Fi. ve. M: Urn tun, C. Brewer [& Comva nyj. H: Ye ~. Very cooperative. (long v a u ::..: e) 'l'ha t'::..: enough. lVI: (laughs) Okay. S tainuacJ\:s . [Ingram Macklin] StainbacJc . H: I ought t o know mo re a bout hi m but i t e ~; cape ~:: me rig ht now. I c an't thinlc right now d.uout him uuL I oug·ht to know more 2'1 about him. L thin!{ 1·1e .lt'Ler·wurd :; became governor but 1 'm not sure. [He wau gove r- nor fro111 ll)li-2 Lo 1951.] M : I don ' t know. H: Does it ::;ay anything r-tlJOUL him'~ M: Lawyer, U.S. District Attorney . H: I don't remember enough about him clearly to ::; ay anything. Go ahead. M: Okay. Alva [E.] Stealiman. H: No. M: Wilhelmina Tenney. H: (long pause) Well, 1 suppose you know who she was. lVI: Yeh. H: Well, l can't add anything probetiJly to what you lcnow. M: Okay. IV!r. anli Mn>. Walie [Wurren] 'J'hayec. H: No. lVI: George 'l'orrey? H: Oh, it's a uhame but I. can't. He was a person of importance and I knew him quite well, but right now I ean't remember anything about him. M: The painter? H: Oh yes. Ye:.;. N()Lhing excei->t Llw.t he chargeli five thou s~nd dollars for a portrait. M: Wow! H: If you'd go to him and say you have two thous and dollars and that's ull you bali, he'Li :.;ay, '"l'oo bad." He wouldn't do it for le::;s. M: He must have been rather comfurtable. H: He was. He had been in New Yo ric a J ong time and he got five thousand there. Ye::;, I knew him quite well but he wau not a focce in any way in a military way, so I was not much intere:.:;Led. I knew him 4uite well. 28 M: Conrad Von Ha.mm? H: I did not know lt i m we 11 . !VI: Hermann [ Valde111ar] vo1t Hu! L. H: A very good citi:z.en; we Lhou?•;ht very dependable to give everything in time of war; with a very capable wife [Eliz abeth Value von Holt] who would ulso be useful in time of war. lVI: Okay. How about John Waterhouse? H: I don't remember. lVI: Alexander [H.osu] Walkec":' H: (long pause) An able ci ti:t.en and very dependable in time of war; do anything that we wanted hjm to do. 'l1 hat's all. lVI: Okay. When do you have to go? ( cecorder turned off and on• al.Tain)b H: You got some more in the booh.? lVI: We're just getting to Lhe end here. H: Oh, you're get tiug to wards the end? M: Yep. Let's see. Henry White? H: Henry White. No, I don't remember anything. lVI: Gaylord Wilcox? H: No. M: Charles Wilder? H: No. M: Mr s . Gerrit [P.] Wilder. H: No. Society. Well-up. lVI: Yeh. 'l1 hat about doe ~ it, l thinlt. Ob, wait. Baroness Zur Helle. H: Very wealthy and . . lVI: She waBan I:.:;enberg. llklt· n 1:..-; t:nlH:~rg Zur Helle] 2 H: Yes. We did not know where she stood, whether her sympa thie!: were with the Germans and, therefore, with the Jcq>· - nese. She wa~ a doubtful person. M: llin. Do you know any other Isenberg? H: 1 didn't knuw them pen;onally, but they were doubtful. 'I'heir sympathies were quite German and, therefore, we thoughL that they were with the Japanese. M: Yeh, they were about the wealthiest German family, I guess, here. H: Ye ~. Well, the Germun:.; were pret ty doubtful. We didn't know what they'd do. We didn't think they were very ~ner icanized. lVI: Hm. H: Wait just a minute, will you? I think I ve got something else here if I can find it. I think I've got a list of people we invited to my daughter's wedding. She married soon after we left here. rl1 hat might bring back some mem ories if I can put my finger on that. It's in the other room there. M: Okay. (counter at .37J) END OJ<' INTERVIEW ke-transcribed and edited by Katherine B. Allen NO'l'E: 1>· 2 General Herron "wa~J apparently overdo:.::ed with an euthesia and affected by it for a long time," ac cording to Mrs. F<. W. kipple, his daughter. p. 6 Mrs . .KiJ.>ple says that "the cool\. and houseboys were in the Philippine::;" and that General Herron "had a striker whose duties were to drive and take care of General Herron's uwn car, and employed two Jap ane::;e girls for housework, coolting, et cetera, while in Hawaii." p. U Aina Wodehouse Olsmilh, daughter of Annie Leialoha Cleghorn and Hay Wudehou::;e, was raised by Mr. and )0 Mr::;. Lo uis von 'PHmp::;ky a .f'Lee her mother died. Her father wa s Mrs. von •remps ky's brother, so she was Armi.ne von 'J'erup :;ky ':; couu i n. p. 16 The pecson refer1·ed to i s C.harles Heed Hemenway, chairman of the l.Jodrd u1' regent :_; at the University of Hawaii, 1910- hO. Accur·ding: to Mr s . Hipple, Gen eral Herron "couuni ::;:...; Loned to active duty an RO'rC University of Huwaij graduate of Japanese ancestry- the f' Lr::;t time it hud bee n done. r:eneral Herron wa:_; much honored und lovetl by the Ja}June:.:;e communi ty here because 11e had r:oue on r·ecord as l..1elieving in their loyalty, w rd u w~ ! { ed this up l)y not includ ing anti-sabotag e rue u:::ure:: in the event of attack, a::; weLl a:.:; by the HO'l'C cummiu:..:iun." p. 21 Nils P. Laruen i ::; no t the faLher of Lieutenant Gen eral Stanley Robert Lar::;en, whose parents are George F. and Agnes Amlert:on Larsen. ~UbJeet Index 1 Backg round; paren-t::;; hi otorical data William Parke and Ada Patton Herron Civil War; Pre~ident Abraham Lincoln 2 Williwn Parke Herron, anny officer Civil War data C.D. Herron'u health, 1971 C.D. Herron'!3 appointment to We~;t, .Point C .lJ. Herron':.; first stop in Hawaii, 1 e-19 J Personal history; military duty Description of downtown Honolulu, 1899 Alexander Young Hotel; Hoof Garden L~ 'I' he o u t 1 awing of the h u l<:t Walter F'ranci s Dillingha m 'I' he Governor's Guard; lo lani Palace 5 Walter Fruncis and Louise Guy1ord Dillingham World War II; LieutenanL General Walter D. Short 'l'he Big Five and Walter F'. Dilling ham Fa~~tily hi f;tory; s oeial activitie;.; 6 C.D. Herron' d military career Frank E. a nd Huth Hichar-d ~-; IVlidlti.ff Schofield Barrack s ; Fort ShafLer General Do ugla::; JVIac Arthur We ~ L Point JVIili Lary Acade my 7 Uni Led S t a t e:> War DepartmenL 7 Gener-c.tl l ~eoq:u CaL"leLt IVIar:;ltall C . D. Herru11' :; JH:.:r- ··onllel work Selection 01" t.~e11e r al ~ ; . World War · Il General Henr·y H. ArrtuJ d Un.i ted States Anny anu Air Cor·ps 8 ~ ;e11eraJ Ueoq:;u CaLle L L !VIar:.>hall General Henry H. Arno l<.l General Walte1· IJ. :Jhor·t 'l'he situation on IJeuemL-Jt:H' ? , 19LH Lieneral IJougla:-:; MacArthur General Dwight David Eiuenhower Schofield Barracks C) Uent..!rul Andrew !Vlo:.;e u C.D. Herron'::; military duty Ueneral Geor~e UaLlett Marshall United State:.; War IJeyartment ~'r<-..t.Hk E. anu l fo'ort Shafter 10 Social life at Fort Shai'Ler Frunk Athertun Cuol\:e Lieneral Br.i..anL vuell~ ; Hawaiian Su~~ Anecdote: l''.A. Cooke and the white orchids 11 Woru portrait: !•'raul\ ALherton Cooke 11 Walter l•'ranc.i:j Dillinf;haiu Ather-ton Chave1, Cen tr<.1 l Union Church H-- Ill'Y Clark 'l' homa:::; and An: hiballl ~:.Cleghorn Pr' inCtlSS Lil~elike (JVJ n; . A, S.) Clegho r n Wi ll.i run Cleghur'I l Aina ltuouehou:.w Olsmi Lh Mrs . Charle:::; Dougla:::; He rron 12 Armine vo n 'l'emvs ky; Bor-n in Paradise IVlr. and !Vir~;. Haymond ...~. Coll JVlr. and !Vir: ; . C. Mon t a J·ue Coolce !VIr. ami IVJr ::; . ,J. Pia L L Cuolte IVlr ::;. Walter Franci ~ !Jj J J inghwn IVIr. and Mr 0 • J ame:::; C rom wa~ 11 Henry Clark; We:::;t Point Military Academy 13 !Vir. and Mrs. Cyril F'ra nci::: lJamon Mr. <.1nd IVlr~. Alan ~- Davis Mr. and Mrs. Hat·oltl DillinL•hcuu Wa l t er f'rane.i ~-; Dilli 11 Jh a m Louise Gay.Lo1·u (IVII~ :.J. W.ft'.) Dillinghwn 'l' he Wat umu ll l•'o undu Lj on 14 Walttlc r' r aw..:i~ : lJillirat-!)t <:Jua Mr.;. Ctwrle:j Uou~l u: : HerT ult Royal, Moana Walter F. D i L I l ngh 15 Walter F. Dillingham and the U.S. Anny 'l'he Walker .family 16 JVJr. and JVlr~. Herbect lJowl;ett Harold Dy~on, plan Latj on manager Walter F. and Lo ui ~e G. Dillingham Joseph Rider FarTing Lon Mrs. Wallace Riuer FarTi1~ton Honolulu Star- Bulletin 17 Arcadia Retirement Re::;idence WalLer Franc i ::; l"rear- Ju:_;eph Hider J•'a1Ting Lnrt Eliz.abeth Pcw:~tL (IVlr:;. J.H.) l•'arrington The Frears; Social Science Club 18 General Walter D. Short United Sta tes War De!Jartment General George Catlett Marshall General Do ut;l a ~ lVJaeAr thur Eli. z. abeth Pruett ( JVIr .3 . J. R. ) F'arring ton 19 Reverend and lVJr~. Henry Pratt Judd Albert Franci~ Judd; BL;hop Estate Biuhop JVJu~eum 20 'l' he ~~anual wuot! Lr· aue 20 Anecdote: A.l''. Judu and the U.S. Army Mr. and Mr!;. ; ~ ; uuue l Kc-:mv 21 Clifford KimbaLl; Halel<.ulani Hotel Mr. and IVIn_;. Auu i :..;on Er-win Kirk David LarDen; C:. Brewer· & Company Dr. Nils P. Larsen Lieutenant General Stanley Robert Larsen West Point Military Aeauemy Reverend Horaee H. Leavitt Oren E. Long IVlr. and Mr:.:;. Han:_; L' 01·ange !VIr. a nd Mr~;. l•'rederick Lowrey 22 Lewe1·s & Cool\e, Incorporated Martha Lowrey (!VIr::;. J e:uue:..; !Vlullaby) Greenwell Mr. and Mr:=;. Ha rold Lyon Mr. and IVJr:.:;. Hobert !VIc:Corriston tieorge McEldowney 2) William and Jcune :.:; Mcinerny Waltur Francis Dillinghruu 24 Alfced Le:.:;ter Ma rk::> Judge and Mrs. Edward IVIa~-; ;::; ee Reverend 'l'aJcie Okumura Governor Joseph Boyd Poindexter 25 1l'he :.:;i tuation on Deeember 'I, 11)41 25 George Fullerton Renton Mark. Ro bin~;on 26 E crte ~;t Ro ~.;s Guy Rothwell, arc hi teet Uu:::;tav Schaefer A l v ah A. Sc o t t Oscar ..:>hephen..l Philip E . .3palding; C. Beewer & Company l:ovldrnor lngram JV!acld in :~Lainback 27 Alva E. Steadman Wilhelmina 'l'enney IV!r. and JVIr:.:;. Wade Warn~n 'rhayer George 1'o rrey, ar ti :; t 28 Conrad Von Hamm Hermann Valdemar von Hol L Elizabeth Value (JVIr~. H.V.) von Holt He nr'Y White Gaylord Wilcox Charle::; Wilder' Mr:::;. Gerrit P. Wilder 'l'he Isenberg faud ly; H ~.: lL:n l. Zur· lit• lle 29 'I' he Isenberg f'ami ly THE WATUIVJULL FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT In May 1971, the Watumull Foundation initiated an Oral History Project. The project was formally begun on June 24, 1971 when Katherine B. Allen was selected to interview kamaainas and longtime residents of Hawaii in order to preserve their experiences and knowledge. In July, Lynda Mair joined the staff as an interviewer. During the next seventeen months, eighty-eight per sons were interviewed. Most of these taped oral his tories were transcribed by November JO, 1972. Then the project was ~uspended indefinitely due to the retirement of the foundation's chairman, Ellen Jensen Waturnull. In February 1979, the project was reactivated and Miss Allen was recalled as director and editor. Three sets of the final transcripts, typed on acid free Perrnalife Bond paper, have been deposited respec tively in the Archives of Hawait, the Hamilton Library at the University of Hawaii, and the Cooke Library at Punahou School.